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Wow! The San Francisco International Pen Show! After hearing about all the beautiful pens Kelly saw, we may all want to start collecting a few ourselves. We also learn that pens join knitting, dogs, chickens, and teaching on our Venn Diagram. Show notes with full transcript, photos, and links can be found in the podcast section of our shop website: TwoEwesFiberAdventures.com. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Subscribe on Android or Subscribe on Google Podcasts Three Green Sisters prizes: Grand prize is an 18 by 18 pillow using fabric designed by Cheri Magnusson. A fabric designer who is the shepherd of an Icelandic flock in Maine.  In addition to the pillow, they are generously providing their Patty style bag as a prize. One will be used for the Summer Spin-In and one will be drawn from a thread we'll post in the Ravelry group.  They are offering Fiber Adventurers a coupon code EWES2 for 15% off until the end of the year. They also make custom loom totes, spinning wheel carriers and spindle and heddle bags, along with one of a kind styles. Take a look at what Suzanne and other 3 Green Sisters are offering in their 3 Green Sisters Etsy shop. SF International Pen Show Kelly saw lots of great pens and stationery supplies. Bailey got to attend , too. Some favorite vendors were Peyton Street Pens, and Curnow Bookbinding. Marsha's Projects Atlas (Ravelry link) by Jared Flood using Navia Tradition. The pattern is also available at his website. I finished the colorwork yoke and the neckband and washed and blocked the sweater before finishing the bottom and sleeve ribbing. My brother tried on the sweater and we confirmed it was too small. I need to frog it and start over. I'm waiting for Kelly to get here to help me unravel it over a glass of wine. I finished the picot bind off of my Simple Shawl by Jane Hunter. I still need to wash and block it. I cast on the tea cozy pattern, Nanny Meier's Tea Cozy by Amelia Carlsen. I am using Cascade 220 Heather in Red Wine Heather (9489) and green Irelande (2429). Finished my Summer Spin In spinning project. Want to make a sweater for Ben and I am considering these patterns: Thun The Blue Mouse Poche Caitlen Shepherd Phrancko  Frank Jernigan Kelly's Projects Dark Green Forest by Christina Korber-Reith. I am using a terra cotta yarn that is a dark red overdyed over the light brown color of the CVM yarn. Working on the first sleeve but I'm almost done. More dishcloths--I'm now using two shades of variegated green from the cotton that we dyed back in 2015 (I think) Patreon Pattern Giveaway! Patrons get a pattern of their choice up to $8.00. Contact Kelly with your pattern selection!  Patterns people have requested (Ravelry links) OMG Heel Socks by Just Run Knit Designs Beautiful Together by Romi Hill Georgetown by Hannah Fettig Girlang by Linnea Ornstein Friday Tee by PetiteKnit Mosaic Musings by Steven West Avion by Katrin Schneider Stripes! by Andrea Mowry Edie by Isabell Kraemer Songbird Shawl by VeryShannon Derecho by Alison Green Nydia by Vanessa Smith Morning Rituals by Andrea Mowry Riddari by Védís Jónsdóttir for Ístex Sleepy Polar Bear by Susan B Anderson Summer Spin In - Ending September 6th! Get your projects posted this weekend. We'll draw prizes in the next episode. Prizes from Three Green Sisters Full Transcript Marsha 0:03 Hi, this is Marsha Kelly 0:04 and this is Kelly. Marsha 0:05 We are the Two Ewes of Two Ewes Fiber Adventures. Thanks for stopping by. Kelly 0:10 You'll hear about knitting, spinning, dyeing, crocheting, and just about anything else we can think of as a way to play with string. Marsha 0:17 We blog and post show notes at Two Ewes Fiber Adventures dot com. Kelly 0:22 And we invite you to join our Two Ewes Fiber Adventures group on Ravelry. I'm 1hundredprojects, Marsha 0:29 and I am betterinmotion. We are both on Instagram and Ravelry. And we look forward to meeting you there. Both 0:36 Enjoy the episode. Marsha 0:42 Hi, Kelly. Kelly 0:43 Hi, Marsha. How are you? Unknown Speaker 0:45 I'm doing well. Kelly 0:46 Good, me too! School has started. Yay! Marsha 0:54 Yay! It's your favorite time of the year. Kelly 0:55 It is it really is. And actually, it's been a lot of fun. The last couple of days I've gotten to meet-- I had, I had some activities that I didn't do in previous semesters. And so I've gotten a chance to meet students online. A little bit, a little bit better than what I've done in previous semester. So yeah, I'm learning. I'm getting better. It's getting to be a little more interesting and fun. And all that training pays off. Marsha 1:25 Yeah. Really. Kelly 1:25 Yeah, really? Ask me again, though in November. Marsha 1:33 Yeah. Yeah. Kelly 1:35 But right now, day three, right. This is Wednesday? Yeah, no, this is Thursday, day, four of the semester, it's going great. Marsha 1:46 It's going so great you don't even know what day of the week. Kelly 1:47 I know, really, this is a good sign. I feel like I'm attached to the hip with my computer between doing all the school stuff. You know, I mean, I don't have zoom class meetings, but jumping on zoom to help students with questions, emailing back and forth to students, putting up assignments to students, grading assignments to students--with-- you know--of students. Checking in to make sure they've done all the things that they needed to do. It has data analytics, so I can see what pages they've been looking at. And, you know, figure out what I need to do like, oh, they're missing this. Students don't seem to be looking at this page. They're missing this information, I need to make sure I put out a notice, you know, all this stuff on my computer. And then when I'm done for the night, well, and then then the morning before I start, you know, I'm looking at the news on the computer, I'm looking at Ravelry on the computer, and then when I done at night, I take the computer to bed and I watch TV, watch Netflix Like this computer is like attached to my-- practically attached to my body. Hmm, I'm going to really be in need of a digital detox at some point. Marsha 3:00 Well. Yeah, maybe someday. Maybe. Kelly 3:05 Yeah, I don't know. It's funny, because I don't, I don't really, I don't really mind. You know, most of the stuff on the computer is, is it's enjoyable, you know, looking at Ravelry and talking to students and all that, watching Netflix or Amazon Prime. You know, it's it's not terrible. It's just-- It's so funny. This one device is doing everything for me Marsha 3:31 That's a lot of time. That's a lot of time looking at that blue screen or whatever it is. Kelly 3:35 Yeah, yeah. That's true. Marsha 3:39 Well, what have you been up to? Kelly 3:41 Since we last talked? Well, I went to the San Francisco International Pen Show! Yay! Marsha 3:50 I saw your pictures. It looks very cool. Kelly 3:53 Who knew? First of all, that there even was such a thing, although I should know that. You know, if there's a yarn conference, of course, there should be a pen conference. I mean, every hobby's got to have their you know, their their get togethers. I saw on Instagram, the like mascot for the pen show was a white German Shepherd. And so on their Instagram feed they were posting pictures, you know, Odin says wear a mask and have you gotten your you know, do you know what pens you're going to be looking at? A picture of the dog with the pen in his paws and, you know, all these different pictures with pens. And then I saw there was a hashtag dogs of the San Francisco pen show. And then somebody said something about, oh, and then one of the posts was, is your pooch coming or something like that? And I thought, Wait a minute, what? Wait, what? Because we were trying to figure out what to do with the dogs, you know, they don't really have a lot of experience being home alone. And that's a you know, that's a distance away for for us so it's going to be all day. And the two together is a lot for Aunt Betty to, to have to deal with. So we were trying to manage what we're going to do and we had thought we would bring them both in the truck, but then it was going to be like almost 90 degrees. And there was covered parking but Robert's truck is tall and so there's always a worry what if it doesn't fit in the covered parking? The old truck didn't fit in covered parking. This one the shell is a little bit lower. He didn't get the, the taller shell. So anyway, there was all this like angst about what we're going to do. And and I had, you know, thought, Oh, I need to call the hotel and get information about their parking structure. Anyway, when I saw that, it's like, oh, she can come to the pen show. So Bailey came to the pen show. It was so fun. Marsha 5:48 Did she by a-- Did she buy a pen? Kelly 5:50 No, I didn't let her have any money. But she was really good. And there were other dogs there. We didn't get to see the white German Shepherd. I guess they were busy running the show. And not you know, didn't have the dog. But But yeah, he was there at the party-- the after party that evening. But we had already gone by then. So Marsha 6:17 The pen show has an after party? Kelly 6:18 Yeah. It's called a pen show after dark. It looks like a lot of fun. Marsha 6:27 It's so clever. Kelly 6:28 Yeah. Yeah. Kind of like, you know, kind of like the lobby at stitches. Marsha 6:33 Mm hmm. Kelly 6:34 So after, you know, after hours, so yeah. I also found out that there's an intersection. Quite the intersection between pen lovers, and knitters. Okay, so I wanted to give a few shout outs to some people that I talked to at the pen show. One of them, her name is Rena. I don't remember her last name. But her Ravelry name is sewwhatsports and sew is an s-e-w. And she actually was telling me that she had written an article for ply magazine. And I don't have this issue, but it's in the electric issue. I was gonna try to get it because I'd love to see her article. It's in the electric issue of ply magazine, which I think was in May or April. And she wrote an article about being a nomad spinner. So she's sold everything and she's just living on the road. And one of the things that she that she's doing as she lives on the road is these pen shows. She was at a booth for a guy, a shop called Toys in the Attic. And so yeah, I bought a pen case from them. Little travel case that fits in the pocket of my briefcase, and she showed me all about it, how it's--you could step on it and it won't crush and and so it won't, you know, my pens won't get smashed in my briefcase, and has a magnet clip that is super strong so that it won't pop open. And but anyway, her article was about how she spins on the road with an electric spinner. Marsha 8:20 Mm hmm. Kelly 8:21 So that was really cool. So shout out to Rena, Ravelry name is sewwhatsports. And then I was at the Peyton Street Pens booth. And Peyton Street Pens is the one that's local to me. It's an online shop, but they are in Santa Cruz. All the pens I've bought, have been from there. Marsha 8:43 Except, except the one from college, right? Kelly 8:47 Yes, the one the one that I bought in college I bought, I did not clearly did not buy from them. But then that inspired me to get-- make a small collection of Sheaffer Targas from that same era, which I bought from them. And then I got the older Sheaffers for Christmas and my birthday. And those were also from them. So anyway, I wanted to meet Teri and introduce myself and say hello and have her put a face to an order blank, you know. Marsha 9:20 yeah. Kelly 9:21 So I went over there to talk with her and helping in her shop is a woman named Elizabeth. And she's like, did you knit your sweater? So I think this actually is what what created my knowledge about this intersection because I wore the Edie my Edie Tee that's that variegated yarn, the turquoise variegated. And so she said, Did you knit your sweater? And I said yes. And then I said, Are you a knitter and she said, Oh yeah. And so she goes to her bag and she pulls out her shawl and, and she was making a beautiful or she had in her in her bag it was finished. It was what she was wearing. She had in her bag, a beautiful, multicolor shawl. So that was really fun to get to meet somebody who--and she's on Ravelry. But I don't, I didn't get her Ravelry name. And then there was another booth where I actually bought a little leather cover for a field notes-- for my field notes notebooks. Marsha 10:26 Yeah, Kelly 10:26 It's what they call a traveler's style notebook where it's a cover with elastics and then you just, you just insert almost as many of these little Field Notes notebooks as you want inside by using these elastics to attach them. So I bought the cover from them and it's Curnow Bookbinding. Marsha 10:49 Okay, Kelly 10:49 And the woman there was also a knitter and I did not get her name, unfortunately. But yeah, she she, she told me her Ravelry name, and I didn't write it down. So I don't remember. But But yeah, that was really fun to meet her too. And I was able to buy the little, the little book and they have-- Curnow bookbinding it's C U R N O W. They have an Etsy shop. And they sell the cutest notebook thing. I didn't buy one at this shop, but I think I might have to at some point go on their Etsy shop. But they take old books. And then they use the covers of the old books. Marsha 11:34 Mm hmm. Kelly 11:35 And they put hand sewn notebooks inside. Okay, so they had Hardy Boys and some other titles that I didn't recognize. But I was just thinking I should go back and look at their site because what a fun gift for someone. You know, if you know that they really loved a certain book when they were young. Like let's say they love Nancy Drew or Hardy Boys and you go on Marsha 12:01 Yeah, Kelly 12:01 and see, you know, that notebook So, so I thought that was very clever. And then they also had wooden notebook covers that were like laser engraved. And there's one with a really cool octopus. Oh, I almost I almost bought the octopus one. And then there was also a woman who made felt art notebook covers and had bowls for your paint brushes. Marsha 12:34 Okay, Kelly 12:34 And and she was like, No, they're not knitting bowls. They're not yarn bowls. Like okay, she knows about yarn bowls? Kelly 12:43 Yeah, really? Kelly 12:44 I guess if you if you craft with felts maybe you do know about yarn bowls. So but they have little lips on them. So you could put your, you know, your watercolor brush on Marsha 12:56 Okay, Kelly 12:56 the bowl edge. So yeah, it's very cool. I so I bought the cover to the note-- the notebook cover. I bought a pen, a really darling little, small, like four-- under four and a half inches. A little orange and black, a 1920s or 1930s pen that fits into my little notebook. So that's really cool. Yeah, I had a great time. It was a lot of fun. I didn't spend all my money. Marsha 13:30 Oh, good. Kelly 13:31 Yeah. Well, Marsha 13:31 I guess that's good. Is that good? Kelly? Kelly 13:33 Yeah, it was fine. I wasn't sure you know, what I was going to see or what I was going to want. And there was there was a lot of interesting stuff there. But a lot of the things I don't feel like I know enough. Marsha 13:46 Mm hmm. Kelly 13:47 You know, so it was mostly, it was more of a learning, was more of a learning experience to go. And yeah, there are a couple things I wanted. I wanted the case, the pen case that I could put in my briefcase to protect my pens. Marsha 14:01 Mm hmm. Kelly 14:02 If I ever get back on campus, if I ever go anywhere. And then I wanted the cover to the field notes notebooks. So, huh. So yeah, but lots of intersection between knitting and this whole pen, pen and stationery world. Marsha 14:23 I remember having this whole discussion about the intersection of knitting and chickens. Kelly 14:27 Yes. Now we can add knitting and pens, knitting and pens, knitting and chickens. knitting and dogs. Marsha 14:34 Yeah, Kelly 14:35 There are a lot of intersections. Yeah. knitting and teachers, pens and teachers. Anyway, yeah, we could go, we could go on. Marsha 14:46 The list goes on. Yeah, Kelly 14:47 yeah. You know, all the cool. All the cool people do all the cool crafts, right. Marsha 14:54 Yeah, that's true. So yeah, well, that sounds like it was really fun and I think you sent me some pictures. Yeah. And the pens, some of the pens are just beautiful. Kelly 15:05 Oh my gosh, yeah, just Yeah, really, really, really beautiful. And some are really, really, really expensive. Yeah. You know, there's a pen price for everyone. That was another thing that was pretty cool to see, you know, really wide variety. Marsha 15:23 Well, and I was gonna say, you know, if you had those really expensive pens, you probably wouldn't want to take it out of your house and bring it to class because it'd be easy to lose something like that, you know. Which it's nice now that you have the case too, because you it's that'll be harder to lose, than a pen, you know, Kelly 15:39 yeah right. And then the case, I've been using the case. I have a bag that I pack in the morning when I go out to the trailer just because it's easier to carry all my stuff. And so I've been using the case in there. And it's really nice, because it just fits exactly in the pocket of my felted bag. And then the flap. The flap closes, because it's magnetic, it closes over the edge of the pocket. So it's really easy to just flip that flap up and grab the pen out and then close it back up. It's not like I have to take something out, take the pen out of that. I could just reach in like, it's become like a... it's not permanent, but it's almost like a permanent pocket. Or, well, yeah, a permanent hard sided pocket in my, in my bag. And that was kind of what I wanted was something that I could just put into my bag. It'll stay in my bag, and then I could just flip up the top and get the pen out. Marsha 16:36 Yeah. Kelly 16:38 So yeah, it was nice. I also saw Marianne, our friend Marianne. Kelly 16:42 Oh, yeah, Kelly 16:43 Arunningstitcher or Mariknitstoo on Ravelry. I think is her her Ravelry name there anyway. Yeah, so that was fun. She was-- she said she was gonna come for the end of the pen show. So we stood around and talked, probably a good 30 to 40 minutes. So I hope she had enough time to do damage after we got done talking. So we were headed out and she was headed to take a loop around and see what she could find So, huh. So yeah, I was really fun to see someone in person. Marsha 17:20 Yeah. Yeah, cuz it's been years. Well, year and a half when we're getting up on it. Kelly 17:28 Yeah, I mean, I haven't.. The last time I saw her it was in February of 2020. At tSitches. Yeah. So it would...that was really fun. To have a chance to meet somebody in person. It was, it was just a fun, fun day all around. Marsha 17:47 Yeah. Good. Yeah. Well, um, yeah. So it's very cool. Next year, maybe I'll come down for it. I'm not, maybe I need, maybe I need to get into these pens. I'm not into the pens. Maybe Maybe there's, maybe I shouldn't be into these pens. I don't know. Kelly 18:01 Oh, it's pretty fun. Yeah, pretty fun. Well, and I've got, okay, we won't to talk a whole lot about this. But I've now got a little system with my notebooks, to help me remember what I have to do for my classes and stuff. And that's been kind of fun to to...You know, we've talked about our lists. And I still have the steno pad that I use to keep lists. But now with that little small notebook cover, I have a couple of notebooks in there and one's for each class. And so I just take and jot little things or have like, I need to make a list of students that I need to contact, you know, like, I can actually write their names down on it. It's all in the computer. But sometimes you just need to write it down, have a list, and then go back to your email and create the email, you know. So I'm using it for all that kind of stuff, just like little scratch notes that I have for my class. So it's kind of fun to have a new little notebook system that I'm developing here. Marsha 19:00 Yeah, yeah. Oh, very cool. Yeah. And what else? Kelly 19:05 Well, I have some knitting. Okay. Marsha 19:07 You want to talk to me-- talk projects, then? Kelly 19:10 Yeah, I do have some knitting. I'm working right now on my sweater. And I'm almost finished with the first sleeve. I have probably 18 to 20 more rows of the cabling, and then the ribbing at the bottom. Marsha 19:30 Wow, good progress. Kelly 19:32 Yeah, it's it's going. It seems like it's going slowly. But that's just because I haven't had a chance to pick it up recently. Or the other thing is, when I've had the chance to pick it up. I've had to then rip back because my problem is that the rows are you know, the rounds on a sleeve are so short. Yeah, I forget to mark them off. Marsha 19:58 Oh, okay. Kelly 19:59 And so I'm going... You know, if it's a longer one and you get finished with it, it's like more momentous, I think. And so you remember to mark it off. I still forget, but I have an easier time remembering in that case. But with this, I'll get to the end of the row and just keep, you know, just keep plowing on. And yeah, keep going. Yeah. And every fourth row, I think it's every, Yeah, every fourth row, I have to do cable crossings. And so I was like, oh, shoot, have I gone three rows? Is this the time for the cable crossing? Or was it only two and I'm trying to count. And then I make the cable crossing and like, oh, shoot. No, that's too small. I needed to go one more or Oh, no, that's too big. Oops, gotta go backwards. So I've done quite a bit of, of unknitting the whole round or going back and just undoing the section of the cable crossing and fixing it. It's, it's a little irritating that I can't count. Marsha 20:58 [laughing] Kelly 21:03 I find it to be annoying. Not so annoying that I've learned to do it. But Marsha 21:10 to do it. Yeah funny! Kelly 21:12 But yeah, it's annoying, I get really irritated with myself. But it's it's well pattern I am I'm enjoying this pattern. I'm really enjoying the yarn. This is my handspun CVM three ply that I overdyed. And the natural color is a light tan. I think when I originally named the the the yarn, you know, in my project page, I called it "have a little coffee with your cream." Because the color of the yarn is if you... we used to have as a kid, I don't know if you guys did this, but my grandma would make us coffee milk. Marsha 21:57 What is that? Kelly 21:58 Well, it's like an inch of coffee. And then the rest of its milk in your cup. Oh, and so it's like you're having coffee with your adult family members. It's like you're doing this thing of having coffee, but you're really just having a glass of milk. So anyway, we used to have coffee milk, not all the time. Special, you know, special treat to have coffee milk. So it reminded me of that coffee milk where you're really just having milk and you're having a little coffee with your milk. And that's the color of the yarn. And then I dyed it with a color, I think it's called dark red dye. And so I've gotten this terra-- kind of orangey rusty terracotta color. So that's the the yarn I'm using, which of course you already know. But I'm letting people people know who might not have listened to before because I don't know if you noticed Marsha, but we have quite a few new listeners. Marsha 22:55 We do. Kelly 22:56 Yeah. Yeah, over the last few months. Marsha 22:59 Welcome. Kelly 23:00 Yeah, Marsha 23:01 all that talking is paying off. [laughing] Kelly 23:07 Well, and I think, I think some of them have come from... I can, you know, I can kind of look at the statistics, the analytics on our on the lips inside, but some of it has come from Spotify. So now that the our podcast has been on Spotify for a while, it's starting to get more more listeners there. And then there's another one called Gaana, which is I think it's in I want to say it's in India, is where that podcast app is used more. Okay, so we have we have some listeners on that app anyway. So yeah, welcome everyone who's new. Nice to see you and I wanted to just make sure you know about my sweater. And the pattern that I'm using. I think I forgot to say that the pattern that I'm using is called dark green forest. And it's by Christina Korber Reith. Or Rieth. Marsha 24:07 and I have a question about your sweater because where are you with the sleeve issue? Because remember, we were talking about this the last time that you think it's going to be okay? That because the color is slightly different but you think the last time we talked, we recorded I think you said we thought was going to be okay. Kelly 24:23 oh yeah, cuz I was only like an inch or so past and I now I'm now I'm quite a ways down and this sleeve is looking fine. Marsha 24:32 Okay, Kelly 24:33 There's a there's a slight change in the in the variation, you know, because then kettle dyed yarn is varied. Anyway, there's a slight change in the variation about the place where I started the sleeve, but there's also a slight change in the variation a little higher where it was within within a single skein. And then there's slight changes in the variation as it goes down the sleeve too. So I think I think it looks pretty seamless. Marsha 25:07 Good. That's nice to hear. Kelly 25:08 Yeah. Yeah, that was, I think that's what kept me from actually putting the sleeves on for so long. I was kind of worried about that. But this one's going well, hopefully the second one will go will go just as well. But I think it's going to be fine. Yeah. Yeah, I'm pleased to say. Marsha 25:29 Very nice it is really pretty. Kelly 25:31 Thank you. Yeah, I'm really enjoying this pattern. I'm glad I found it. It's not a very-- it's not a very well used pattern. I think there were only like, maybe 20 projects. Let me see. There are 25 projects. Okay, so yeah, only only a very few people, two dozen people have made this pattern. So, but I'm having a good time with it. And I think it's really well written. It's very detailed, a little bit daunting when I first opened it up, but once I started actually reading... Kinda like my students and my online class. Once they actually read the directions, Marsha 26:16 yes. It's not daunting at all. Kelly 26:19 It's not so daunting. So yeah, no, it's, it's, it's, it's been really a good pattern, I would, I would highly recommend it. So and then the only other thing that I've been doing is, I've now I finished with the pinkish purple yarn that I was using for those dish cloths. And I cracked open as a couple of skeins of green. So I've got a dark green and a light green variegated. They're really pretty. And I was thinking back to when it was that we did this. I think we dyed this yarn in, like 2015 Marsha. Marsha 26:58 Well, it was... Yes. It was a while ago. Kelly 27:01 Yes. So I'm really glad to be finally getting some use out of it. Yeah. Marsha 27:09 Nice. Nice. Is that it for projects for you? Kelly 27:14 That's all I got. I haven't done any spinning. I haven't touched Faye's blanket. But her birthday is in October, so I'm thinking I'm gonna finish it for her birthday. Kelly 27:24 Okay, Kelly 27:25 That just seemed like a good, A good milestone. Once I passed a certain point, it was like, Okay, now it's just gonna be a birthday present. Marsha 27:34 And it's an achievable goal, right? Kelly 27:36 Oh, yeah. I yeah, I have just the edging to do so it should. The crochet goes pretty fast in October's a month, away. Marsha 27:45 Thinking of October, I was thinking the other day at you know, I think I texted you a picture that I threw out a bunch of yarn, God gave it back to the goodwill... to the universe. And then I organized all my yarn and I also got these little plastic boxes to put the yarn in. And I had extra boxes. So I decided to put my unfinished projects in these clear plastic boxes so that I would see them. Kelly 28:09 Oh, I think I know where this is going. [laughing] Marsha 28:13 And one of my clear plastic boxes that contains my unfinished skull. And I was thinking I think this the third October, but I I yeah, I'm pretty sure it's the third October, Kelly 28:28 I think you're right. Marsha 28:30 Hmm. And I'm not getting... I'm not... well, I don't know. Maybe I'll maybe something will happen and I'll get it done by the 31st. You know, by Halloween. unlikely but I could do it. Kelly 28:42 Didn't you start on the teeth? Marsha 28:44 I finished the teeth on the ...now I can't remember. Kelly 28:51 You finished all the teeth? Marsha 28:53 No, no, no, no, I finished the teeth on the lower jaw. Kelly 28:56 Oh, okay. Marsha 28:57 And now I think I have... And there's how many teeth? Do we have? 32? . I don't know. It has accurate... an accurate number of teeth. So yeah, how many teeth is that? I've done half of them. That's 16 teeth. Kelly is that 16 teeth? Yeah, here's math. Can you divide 32? Kelly 29:17 I can do that math. I just can't count. Marsha 29:21 Anyway, um, and then I need to... so I, so I can... I was looking at it. And I've actually knit all the parts except I have to finish the teeth. And then sew it together. And I have to knit I have to get some dark gray yarn, or black or some dark color to knit like the the, the eye sockets. Yes, if I recall and I never... as I say I didn't get to that part in the pattern yet. But I think what you do is you knit basically like it's a ball kind of, like that's not as... like some like a half circle, kind of that you then push it back into the skull, kind of, to make like the eye So okay, Kelly 30:01 I'm remembering the one I did. I did the mask, The Day of the Dead mask. And it had it had the eye sockets too. And I think it was just kind of like a, it had some short rows in it. But yeah, it was kind of just like making a circle. And then that gets sewed on the back. I should bring you... do you need dark yarn? Kelly 30:23 Yeah. Kelly 30:23 Okay, I should bring you--that's another thing. We haven't talked about that. I'm coming up to see you. Marsha 30:28 Yeah, we'll talk about that in a second. Yeah, I have something to say about that, too. Kelly 30:31 I'll, I'll try to remember to pack... I have some of the that Rambouillet that, you know, the replenish Rambouillet that we have in our shop and I have some samples of that from from Lani. One of them is a dark color, I'll bring that and that might work. Marsha 30:49 Well, the other thing I have, I will get to my projects. But the other thing I have is just I have a lot of fleece, dark brown, black fleece, that I could just spin some and spin a little bit, knir with and... Kelly 31:05 that's, that's another obstacle though, to make it not get knit. Marsha 31:09 I know. I know. So Kelly 31:11 I'll try to remember to pack it, because Marsha 31:14 I will just remind people, because you, Kelly, you said we have a lot of new listeners. But I bought this pattern. So it'll be it was not last Stitches, but it was the Stitches before the Stitches we went to before the pandemic started. Because I can't even remember Kelly, when did the pandemic start? Is that 20 2020 Kelly 31:35 Yeah, it was 2019 when we got crazy about the skulls. Marsha 31:39 Yes. And we went crazy with the skulls and you bought like the Day of the Dead and they're kind of flat? Where mine is actually like, like round three dimensional sculpture. Yeah, that you felt and then you stuff and Kelly 31:51 I have that pattern too, I just never... I just didn't start that one. I got excited about starting the day that the Day of the Dead mask skulls. Marsha 32:00 So But anyway, it's in a clear box, so I can see it now when I go down there. Yeah. into the cellar.... Kelly 32:08 The room under your house? [laughing] Marsha 32:10 Yes. Um, so anyway, and I'm trying to think to remember who the pattern maker was? It's Wooley. Kelly 32:20 Wooley. Wooley Wonders or something. Marsha 32:23 Yeah. Wooley Wonders. Yeah, right. Kelly 32:25 I think so. But you talk and I'll look. Marsha 32:29 Oh, well, anyway, so that's it with that. So anyway, I just I'm bringing that up, because I found that skull down there. And it's, it's October so it just kind of made me laugh again about it. Okay. While you're looking I'm... we'll go back to it. But I'm going to talk about my next project. So Kelly, the last time two weeks ago, we talked about the Atlas, the Jared Flood pullover that I'm making for my brother. And remember I said I was...had some concerns. Kelly 32:54 Yes, about size. Marsha 32:57 I know. So it's too small. I mean, like he can get it on. But he said it's just like it's not there's not enough room through the shoulders. It's like, let me back up. It fits through the body, like the torso, then when you get up onto the the yoke through the the shoulders. It's... he said it just feels tight. Like he can put it on and it looks okay. But he said it's not super comfortable. And he said to me, Well, maybe if you wash and block it, and I said it is washed and blocked. So I think what I just... it's just sitting in the guest bedroom. And I'm thinking about it. And I thought I'm not going to rip it out yet. Kelly 33:38 Yeah. Marsha 33:38 But I think it needs to be frogged. And I and I but what I'm... You mentioned that you're coming up and so I will, I'm going to speak about that now. So you're coming up. You're driving up from California. Kelly 33:49 Yay. Marsha 33:50 Yay. And we're.. we are beyond excited. Kelly 33:52 Yeah. Yes. Yeah. That is definitely fair to say. Yeah. So I, I decided that since I had to endure the pain of teaching 100% online for three semesters now. That well, actually three and a half semesters. This is my, the start of my fourth semester. Let's see spring, fall, spring? fall? Yes. Marsha 34:22 Again. Kelly, again, the counting. [laughing] Kelly 34:26 This is the start of the fourth semester with 100% online. And so I thought if I have to endure the pain of this, I'm also going to get some of the benefit of this. And one of the benefits of teaching 100% online... Which in the... in the before times not very many people at the college had the opportunity to do that. It was not something that was routinely done. And in fact, there were moves towards making it so that people couldn't teach 100% of their load online. So there were just very few people who could do it. But one of the advantages of doing it is that you can teach from anywhere. And so I thought, okay, I could teach from Seattle. And then I could work during the day, and then I could play in the evening. And actually, with online classes, you can play in the day and work at night, you know, you can rearrange your schedule, however you need to. So I thought, I'm going to take advantage of this once in a lifetime, for me, because I don't intend to teach 100% online, ever again, if I can help it, right, Marsha 35:38 right. Kelly 35:39 But I'm going to take advantage of this opportunity to teach really remotely, so I'm going to be teaching from Seattle. It's just gonna be so fun. Marsha 35:48 I know. So you're, I'm very excited. So and we have our, we have everything planned, well sort of planned out what we're going to do. Basically, when we're in Seattle at my house, we're just going to sit on the deck and spin and knit. Kelly 36:00 Yep. Marsha 36:01 When you're when you're not working, we're going to be spinning and knitting on the deck, and walking dogs and just playing with dogs. And because you're bringing Bailey, you're not bringing Beary though he's gonna stay home. Kelly 36:13 No he's staying home. In fact, he's having afternoons with Aunt Betty, because because he needs to get practice in staying with her. And he's, you know, for months, he, this pair of dogs are the only dogs I've ever raised where I haven't practiced having them be by themselves. Marsha 36:32 Mm hmm. Kelly 36:33 You know, all the other dogs I raised from puppyhood. And that was just a part of the routine was that they had to get used to being alone. And, of course, Bailey came with her own issues about being alone. And with Beary, it's just, you know, it's harder now because there's two dogs and we're always home. So he really hasn't had a lot of opportunity to to learn to just be the stay at home dog and not have me around not have Robert around. So he's been practicing. Practicing afternoons with Aunt Betty. She gives him cookies. And he's learning to be happy down there. Marsha 37:14 Well, he's a pretty easy going dog. I mean Kelly 37:17 Well, it's funny, because he does seem like that. But he has fears that you just don't notice because of the way he acts. Like he was really afraid to go in the door to her room from outside. I don't know why. There was just something really strange about it. Maybe it felt like going into the basement? I don't know. Yeah, he just had a real fear of it. And so we've had to really work on work on that. And then once he got in, he immediately wanted to go out. And so but you know what? He likes food. And yeah, and so she's been giving him cookies. And he's been, he's been learning that it's a happy place. Marsha 37:59 Mmmhmm. Well, and aunt Aunt Betty is fun. And she loves dogs. And you know, all the dogs love Aunt Betty so he'll be fine Kelly 38:08 Yeah, it'll be, it'll be fine. He'll, he'll be okay. while I'm gone. Yeah, it'll be different for him. But he'll be okay. But anyway. Yeah, I'm really excited to be bringing Bailey on a road trip. Marsha 38:19 Yes. So we're gonna have a week in Seattle. And then we're going to go down for about a week to the Washington coast and do the whole beach thing. Kelly 38:28 Yeah. Marsha 38:28 And so we're excited about that, too. And let Bailey and Enzo run on the beach because Bailey's been to the beach a couple times with you and Robert, right down in California? Kelly 38:38 Once Yeah, we went once. Marsha 38:40 Oh, just once. And so I'm excited about that. Just to the beach... Well, you know, it's my favorite place. A side note, I'm going more and more side notes that we're going down. I will get back to my project. Because we're going to that community called Seabrook where we always go and I've talked about String Theory Yarns, that's owned by Jean. And I noticed that she posted on Instagram that she and her husband bought an Airstream trailer. Marsha 38:43 Oh, wow, Marsha 39:13 For traveling, which is super cool and super exciting. And my first thought was, how are they going to go anywhere? Because she was telling me in the summer, she usually she works like 120 days straight because she has... she's open seven days a week, and she's the only person in there. She doesn't have an employee. And so I thought when's she gonna use that trailer, and I thought I have a bad feeling about this. That she's retiring and she's closing the shop. Kelly 39:42 Oh no, Marsha 39:45 Well, I assume she's closing the shop. They just, she... Seabrook then posted that she's retiring. So I don't know. Honestly, I don't know if somebody has purchased the business from her or what's going to go on with the yarn shop but I'm a little heartbroken. I have to say. Because we love, We love Seabrook, but it was really nice having the yarn shop like we go in there and check in you know, before you go to the beach and say hi and then stop by afterwards and she always had knit nights on Thursday nights and it was really fun just to go there and you met a lot of the people who lived in Seabrook or in the surrounding communities. So I'm a little heartbroken. But she still lives in Seabrook, so I'll see her and that's good. So I'm Kelly 40:29 Maybe someone will buy the shop, and it will continue. Marsha 40:32 Yeah. I don't know. It's, Kelly 40:35 well, it's a difficult I mean, yarn shops are a difficult endeavor At any point Marsha 40:42 Yeah. Kelly 40:42 and then Seabrook is a little place, kind of out of the way, and then the pandemic can't have helped. So I can, I can certainly understand. Marsha 40:53 And I suspect part of it, too, probably is, it's just a lot. You know, your... she has a dog Cooper and she said, it's hard too when she works in the summer, he doesn't get down to the beach at all, because she's working. Yeah. So anyway. But back to projects back to this my Atlas. You're coming up. And I... See everyone probably thought I'd lost my train of thought, thank goodness. [laughing] I went so far off track. No, but you're coming up, and I decide I'm going to wait till you get here to look at the sweater. And look at it on Mark, because I don't know. And I know you've done color work before. I also I need to have Kim come and look at it too. Because as I've talked about in other episodes, this is the first color work sweater I've done in 20 years. And it looks nice, but I'm wondering if maybe my tension is too tight or something? I don't? Because it doesn't seem like it has a lot of give. Kelly 42:02 Yeah. Marsha 42:02 Now I realize it's not going to have this... It's not gonna be the same type of fabric that is on the body because it's color work, right? But I wonder if maybe that might I need to go up a needle size. So the body is worked on sevens, and the yoke is worked on a size up so on eight, and I want to talk to you about it. And maybe Kim. Do I need to maybe go up two sizes on the yoke? Kelly 42:28 Yeah, maybe. Marsha 42:29 I don't know. And listeners can weigh in on this if they want. I you know I bought a color work sweater in Iceland, where it's a it's a cardigan, zippered cardigan and has the same type of concept of like the... at the yolk. And when you feel that, it doesn't feel much different than the body that is not color work. And I'm wondering, is it... if it's I'm getting too tight or something? Kelly 42:56 Maybe the yarn isn't a good match for the pattern. Yeah, it's...Yeah, I'll be happy to look at it and see. It could be any number of things. It could be that the fabric is stiff, because of all the layers and the type of yarn that it is. Or it could just be a tension issue. Yeah, well, and Kim's done quite a bit of color work too. So she... Marsha 43:19 She's done a lot of color work. And then and the other person I thought I should contact too is momdiggity, Joanne. Because she lives just a few blocks from me. And she does a lot of color work too. She might be able to... Kelly 43:34 Yeah, that would be good. Marsha 43:35 Maybe I'll reach out to her and see if she could take a look at it and see because it it. Yeah. Anyway, I need a little bit of help on that. But it does, it needs to be ripped out. And I'm just gonna wait till you get here. And that can be one of our projects as we sit on the deck over a bottle of red wine is rip out that sweater. Kelly 43:55 Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. You need you need companionship for for something like that. Marsha 44:00 Yeah. Well, and you know, the thing is like, it's like it takes... Well, I knit it pretty fast, because I worked on it exclusively. Pretty much. And it's, you know, bigger needles and whatnot, but I don't know, two months. Maybe. I know that it'll take literally 10 minutes to rip that thing out. You know? Anyway. So that's what's going on with that sweater. And then do you remember I've been...? I looked it up. I cast on Simple Shawl back in 2018. Kelly 44:29 Oh, right. Marsha 44:31 And it's been to Scotland twice. I think it has been to Iceland. Anyway. It's a pattern by Jane Hunter. And I finished the Picot bind off. So that's bound off. I've not washed or blocked it yet. Let's see. I cast on a new project. I we have a friend Brian, who likes the tea cozy that I made for my other friend Gary. So I said I would make him a tea cozy. So it's that Nanny Meyers tea cozy by Amelia Carlsen. I've made, I made one for Gary. And I've made two for myself. And it's that one where you alternate, it's all garter stitch, but you alternate, like, six of your main of one color, and then the second color and keep alternating that across. And so and you pull tight, so it it keeps, oh, yeah, these stripes create like ridges, Kelly 45:26 kind of like corrugated right? Marsha 45:28 Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it's like corrugated metal kind of. And so I, he looked at all of my spirit yarn, there wasn't any colors that he liked. So I said, let's just go down to acorn street here in Seattle. And what it is is just buy cascade 220. Because it's, it's a good all purpose workhorse yarn, and a really nice colors and stuff. So he went down there, and he couldn't decide what he wanted. He was really attracted to a red and green. And then he also was attracted to a blue and yellow. And you know where this is going, Kelly. I can, as I'm saying it out loud. I'm thinking, don't say it. And then I said it. I said, Oh, just buy all four colors, and I'll make you two tea cozies. So so he's getting... I know... so he's getting two. I've cast on the red and green one and they're there. The cascade... Both... All of these are cascade 220 heather's, and there's one called, the one I cast on is red wine heather. And that's a pretty one, and a green called Ireland with an extra e at the end. So I don't know how you pronounce that. But they're really soft colors. Kelly 46:48 Yeah, I think that red wine heather is the one that I used for my heroine jacket. Okay, a long time ago, this I might even have been kind of pre pre Ravelry. Marsha 47:03 Heroine as in a woman who's Kelly 47:05 Yeah, Marsha 47:07 Not the drug. Okay. All right. Yes. Kelly 47:10 Yes. I can't remember who the pattern designer for that was. But it's a felted, it's a felted coat that you knit with two strands, held double. And then you put it in the washer and felt it and it's double breasted. Anyway, I think that's the color. It's a really pretty color... has some blue, some little blue strands through it. Marsha 47:34 Yeah. Yeah. A really nice, they're really nice together because, yeah, super nice together, the two colors so... But I just thought it, just kind of funny going down there to Acorn Street. You know, of course, any yarn shop, people are super friendly. Right? And, and so we go in there and to figure out colors. And of course, you're you're you're confronted with a wall of cascade 220. And where do you kind of start, you know, and I said, Well, let's, let's just narrow down. We want to do heathers. He was pretty sure he wanted that. And so we were picking out the colors. But this is the part I think is so funny is, you know, everybody gets involved in the project. Righ? What are you making and both the the, the people working there, the shop owners or the clerks but then also customers. So I think it was actually kind of fun, you know, that everybody got involved with picking colors. You know, that's, I think he was surprised. But I also thought it was a really enjoyable process, you know. Everybody has a say. So anyway, I'm working on that. And you knit, sort of the two halves and then sew them together. And I have done, I would say, three inches of the first side. So that's coming along. And then I finished my summer spin-in spinning project. Kelly 48:58 oh yay! Marsha 48:59 Yes, I know I'm very excited. I just dedicated myself to and I have a couple things to say. The first thing I'm going to say about plying is the the lazy Kate that comes with the little Herby spinning wheel, the bobbins are vertical on it. Right? And then there was like a spring and then you screw down a knob to hold it on there. But then that spring provides makes, puts some tension on the bobbin right. So that is just not free spinning off the single is not just free spinning off the bobbin, right? Kelly 49:37 Yeah, because if it if that happens and it gets spinning too fast, then it stops and it starts turning around the other direction and then you have a mess. Marsha 49:45 And then it starts plying on itself kind of the single, right? So do you remember when I bought the that Ashford spinning wheel from was it the 80s and it had never been assembled? Well, it came with a lazy Kate, but the bobbins are on there horizontally. Okay, Kelly, so much better! Kelly 50:11 Oh, good, Marsha 50:12 Because what I found and I think it was when the, when the bobbins are horizontal, the, the single sometimes like the, what I would... what am I trying to say? It's like the, you're putting pressure on it like because you have to tension it right, those springs, but some tension so it's just not free spinning, but it also then sort of pulls the single into the layers of singles that are wound on to the bobbin. Kelly 50:43 Yeah, and then the other thing that happens too is if you're pulling just up and you know it's like it's below you and so on on the wheel attached to the wheel and you're pulling on so what you have to do is you kind of have to put your hand down there and pull out and so it's a real, it's a real technique. And then also when you're pulling up it can catch on the edge of the bobbin which is rough and that will break. There's lots of ways for the yarn to breakwhen you're plying with it. Marsha 51:14 What I found is it was the the single would break but then I couldn't find the end because it got buried into the other yarn wrapped around it. So for this I had the the green and brown that I had made. I use the lazy Kate from the little Herbie and then I think when when the podcast we were talking about this and so I got out the other one from the Ashford where the bobbins are horizontal and so all the brown I... well three skeins of brown I plied with that on the horizontal lazy Kate Totally different experience! My yarn didn't break once. Kelly 51:57 Nice. Marsha 51:58 And so I yeah, I don't it's it's... I love the little Herbie. But that design is not very good. I think it's good if you-- but you're right, you have to keep your hand. Yeah, so it's coming up and then this one you don't have to worry about Kelly 52:12 and I'm not as tall as you know, I'm closer. Marsha 52:17 That's true. Kelly 52:18 I'm closer to those bobbins you know, and and so I just kind of got used to a technique but yeah, it is true. spinning off of a horizontal-- plying jof a horizontal bobbin is very different. Marsha 52:32 Yeah. And then I also remember too, when you were first showing me how to ply the yarn You had me put the the lazy Kate quite a ways away from you know, like several feet away and and I noticed like when I was spinning I just had it you know on the side of my chair blocked by the table leg because it doesn't sit flat either. That's everything that's that Kelly 52:54 yeah, it's designed to attach to the wheel Marsha 52:56 Yeah, the wheel and yeah, anyway, so that was just a cool thing. I just, it's making it much better for me, much easier. And anyway, I've got the two tone one I'm calling it the barber pole is the green and brown together. I have about 950 yards. And I think because it's already in skeins I didn't think of doing the wraps per inch. So it's somewhere between a DK and a worsted. Okay. It might be DK I don't know. And then the the solid Brown. I have 661 yards. That is a three ply plied off of three bobbins and then I had you remember when I first the first time I plied I didn't have three bobbins of the brown so I thought oh well just do the chain ply or Navajo ply, but it's a little bit different. And so if you count that skein in, I have Oh, I'm sorry I have that other way around. I have 536 yards. If you add in that odd skein, I have 661 yards of the brown. Okay. So adding that all up it's about 1600 yards or about 1500 yards you know, so I get... I think I have enough for a sweater for Ben. And so I've been looking at sweaters and I need to do a striped sweater so I have couple-- three options. The first one is a pattern from... it's called Thun T h u n by the blue mouse. And I don't know if you've looked at that Kelly it's Kelly 54:39 I'm looking at it right now.And I'm I'm looking, well I'm trying to look at it, here we go. That's cute. Marsha 54:47 So so it's cute. It shows it's a... it shows on a woman but it's a unisex sweater. What I and it's a striped quite big, so the the yoke is one color, a solid--no stripes, I should say. And then like the the body. And the sleeves, partway down are big, thick stripes. Kelly 55:08 Yeah, I like those stripes better than I like the little stripes in the other pattern that you showed me. Marsha 55:13 Okay. So the only thing I would change about this is it has a split. The ribbing at the bottom is split. And the back is longer, twice as long as the front. The ribbing is twice as long as and I think I would make... that for a man, I would make that without the split. And then the same, you know, Kelly 55:35 right. Consistent ribbing all the way around. Yeah, yeah. Marsha 55:41 Yeah. And then the other one I'm looking at is let me go back. It's called poach pooch, p O, ch, E. And that is by Caitlin Shepard. And it's sort of the same idea. It's saddle shoulders. So the same idea, but you're--You're right, Kelly. It's thinner stripes. And but I thought that was a pretty good. It seems like I have enough yarn for that. And the only other thing I would change too is you...after you've knit the sweater you apply over the left breast a patch, like a leather patch or a fabric patch. Do you see that? I don't think I'd put that on Kelly 56:30 Yeah, I don't like that. No. Marsha 56:31 Yeah. And then the other thing I'm considering, as you remember, the I think it was the last time we went to Stitches. And we were having lunch with a bunch of people friends that we know. And there was a man there named Frank Jernigan, and he has a website. It's Phrancko Ph. r a n k. I'm sorry. That's wrong. ph RANCKO, and he does custom fit sweaters. That's not what it's called but it's that same thing where you put all your measurements in and your gauge and it will create a sweater for you. And so I was thinking I might do that. And he has saddle shoulders. So I was the... I might do his sweater. And then add stripes to it. A basic sweater, because Ben is is very tall, but he's very slender. And so if you just do one of these sweaters is actually designed for your body would fit really well. I would think. Kelly 57:32 Yeah, that might be a good idea. Marsha 57:35 Yeah, so those that's what I'm considering. Kelly 57:39 That sounds good. So you got some choices there. Marsha 57:42 Yes. Kelly 57:44 Well, before you make your your segue Marsha, I just wanted to say while you were talking about your spinning, I went and looked up the skull designer, pattern designer and her name is Ellen T. Sebelius. S i b E L I u s. And yeah, give her patterns I look, you may never want to knit something that fiddle that fiddly. But there may be something that you fall in love with on her yarn pages. Because she has some very cool patterns. So yeah, so yeah. But yeah, with your spinning finished Marsha. I didn't, I didn't finish my summer spin-in yet. Maybe I'll finish it while I'm up visiting you. I'll bring up... bring it with me. I just-- I mostly have plying to do so. So we'll see. Marsha 58:35 We'll just remind people that summer spin-in ends Monday at midnight on Monday, September 6, that's right. Kelly 58:45 So get your new projects into the pages, your your finished spins and also if you made anything using your handspun. And I didn't finish this sweater that I'm that I'm knitting out of my handspun either So this time I was a I was a spin along fail, Marsha? Marsha 59:04 Yeah. Kelly 59:06 There's no failure in spinning. I have a beautiful sweater mostly finished and I have quite a bit of singles on my bobbins so I'm happy with with what I was able to accomplish Marsha 59:17 well, that then, uhhh... Kelly 59:22 Oh, I should say about prizes. And we have prizes for this spin-in that we'll draw on our next episode when I'm up in Seattle. And the grand prize is going to be a pillow-- fabric designed by Cheri Magnussen who is a shepherd of an Icelandic flock in Maine. And then we also have project bags donated by three green sisters. And then we also, for people who aren't spinners who might want to enter, or spinners who want two chances to win one of these bags. We have a thread up in the Ravelry group that you can win, we're going to do a giveaway in that thread for a project bag as well. So and then, if you don't want to wait to see if you won, you can just go and look at her bags. And if you use the coupon code EWES2 e-w-e-s -2, you'll get 15% off all the way till the end of the year. Hmm. So take a look. She has some very pretty bags. . Marsha 1:00:28 Really! Yeah Yeah, really cute stuff. So. Alright. Well, we have one more thing we need to talk about. We want to talk about Kelly 1:00:36 Yes. So we're still having the pattern giveaway for our Patreon sponsors. People have been messaging me about the patterns. You get a pattern of your choice up to $8 and just message me on Ravelry or email. I have one email that I have to get to that I haven't haven't sent out the pattern yet. I'll have to do that tonight after we get finished here. But the patterns that people have selected, so fun to see. It's fun to be able to give a prize to our patrons. It's fun to be able to support designers. But I'll tell you, Marsha, it has also been fun to see all these patterns that people are selecting. Marsha 1:01:21 Yes, a few have gone into my... well....a lot have gone into my favorites. Yeah. Kelly 1:01:27 Yeah. So I've done similar. I've done a similar thing. I have a queue. I keep them in my queue. But yeah. Marsha 1:01:34 Like oh, yeah. So we'll have we have a list of them in the show notes. So you can... so anything that really stands out? Kelly 1:01:40 Well, the the beautiful together shawl, I think is really nice. And I haven't done a lace Shawl in a while. It's a Romi Hill pattern. And I have not done a lace Shawl in a while. And so that was kind of like, Oh, I kind of... I'm now at a point where I kind of miss shawl knitting. I think I need to, I think I need to think about casting on a shawl. So that was one of them. And then of course, I'm just gonna say Edie is a great pattern. Unknown Speaker 1:02:08 Mm hmm. Kelly 1:02:09 I was happy to buy that for someone. Because it's just a great pattern. I love my Edie. I have two of them and I love them both. They get a lot of wear. And I just was happy to see that pattern on the list. What about you? Marsha 1:02:25 Well, there was another cuz I love the Edie as well too. That's a great pattern. I but there's I know somebody else picked a tee Derecho. How is it pronounced. Derecho. By Alison green. That's a really cute t shirt too. Kelly 1:02:40 Yeah, that is. That's cute. Marsha 1:02:45 What else do we have here? There was the well Stripes. I've been looking at this Stripes by Andrea Mowry. That's cute. Kelly 1:02:56 I like the the cropped pullover the Nydia by Vanessa Smith. I I don't really wear clothes that it would work with. But I really like how it has the sweater and the cowl. And so when you wear that, you know... I... growing up in the late 70s I guess it was the late 70s cowl neck sweaters became a big thing. And I've always liked them. And so this you can have a cowl neck if you wear the cowl and then if you take the cowl off, you just have a scoop neck. And it's really I think it's a really clever design. Marsha 1:03:40 There's another cute t shirt the Friday tee by petite needs, no petite knits. Do you see that one's a striped sweater. It's very cute too. Kelly 1:03:50 Let me look. Oh, yeah, yeah, I remember seeing that one. Yeah, Marsha 1:03:55 and did you see the sleepy polar bear? Kelly 1:03:58 Oh my god. That's that. I think I'm gonna make that one when that one went on my list of things to make. I had heard of that pattern. I had no idea he was so big. He's big. Marsha 1:04:14 Yeah, it says here about 17 inches in length. Yeah, so yeah, he's he's a big boy. Kelly 1:04:19 Yeah, Marsha 1:04:20 I'm assuming it's a boy Kelly 1:04:21 A chunky boy. Well, it wouldn't have to be you know, not all polar bears are boys. Marsha 1:04:26 Did you? Did you look at the picture of its rear end. That's adorable. Kelly 1:04:31 It's cute. Yeah. Marsha 1:04:33 And little tail and the little paw is adorable. Kelly 1:04:36 Yeah, it's a cute cute pattern. Susan B. Anderson has some darling, darling patterns. But like you could make it a little color work sweater. You know, it has a sweater on but yeah, it's a plain, kind of a plain sweater. With a marled, looks like the marled yarn. I love the little toe pads on the bottom of its feet. Mm hmm. So but it would be fun to make that and also make it a little color work sweater. Marsha 1:05:06 Yeah, look. Yeah. Well, and then speaking of color work sweaters, there's a beautiful Ridari? Kelly 1:05:15 Yes. Marsha 1:05:16 The Icelandic, the Icelandic one and look at I'm not pronouncing this correctly. But it looks like it's Vetis Jonsdotter. Kelly 1:05:25 That's beautiful. Yeah, that is. So Marsha 1:05:29 anyway, everyone should just take a look at them. Because there's... really they'll end up in your in your queue. Kelly 1:05:35 Yes. Yeah. There's danger there but... Marsha 1:05:38 or not queue, but in your favorites. Or you might even just click the buy button. That's right. Kelly 1:05:43 Yeah, there's danger there. But it's the good kind of danger. [laughing] Marsha 1:05:48 Yeah. Yeah. Kelly 1:05:50 Yeah. Very nice. Yeah. Very cool. So yeah, it's, and this is still going on. So if you haven't contacted me yet, and you're one of our Patreon patrons, just get in touch with the pattern that you'd like, for your special gift. Marsha 1:06:06 So I think that's everything. Do we have anything else we need to talk about? Are we want to talk... any more rabbit holes we want to go down or deep dive? Kelly 1:06:14 We'd better not because I have office hours in about 20 minutes Marsha 1:06:18 Okay. Kelly 1:06:19 I can't think well, I can't think of any real big rabbit holes. I stopped myself from going further into Spoonflower after the last episode. But there's quite a discussion going on about--there was quite a discussion going on about Spoonflower in the Ravelry group. So yes, Marsha 1:06:39 I know. I saw that. So. Kelly 1:06:43 So speaking of the Ravelry group, if you are a new listener, come join us. On the Ravelry group. We have discussions about spinning and weaving the the big discussions going on now are the spinning discussion that's been going since the summer spinning started. We have a winter weave along discussion that's been going on since last October. We're almost ready to start our next winter weave along. And then we have morning coffee, where you can talk about anything. Recent conversation has been about dogs and how chaotic the start of the school year has been for all the different teachers that are there in the session. But yeah, it's fun. I go there every morning while I have coffee. That's why I called it morning coffee. But you don't have to drop in in the morning and you don't have to drink coffee. Marsha 1:07:34 No. Kelly 1:07:35 Yeah. Just a fun way to keep in touch with some fiber friends. Marsha 1:07:39 Yeah, Kelly 1:07:40 yeah. Yeah. So feel free to join us on Ravelry and the discussion and the Two Ewes Fiber Adventures group is where you'll find it. Marsha 1:07:48 Okay, any? I guess that's it, though. Yeah. I'm gonna-- I'm gonna let you go so you can get to your office hour. Okay. All right. And then I will... well, I will talk to you in person because you will be here in just a few days. Marsha 1:08:02 Next week, in a few days well, not a few days, but a week. Kelly 1:08:04 Well, less than a week. Marsha 1:08:06 Less than a week. Yeah. Kelly 1:08:07 It's less than a week. You'll be ... very close. Tuesday, I leave. Marsha 1:08:13 So as soon as you finish your office hours, go pack. Kelly 1:08:15 I know. I really, and I'll remember that dark yarn. Marsha 1:08:20 Yeah, yeah.Put it on your list right now. Okay. Use your finest fountain pen and put it on your list. [laughing] Kelly 1:08:28 Okay. Marsha 1:08:30 All righty. All right. Bye. Kelly 1:08:32 Thank you so much for listening. To subscribe to the podcast visit Two Ewes Fiber Adventures dot com. Marsha 1:08:39 Join us on our adventures on Ravelry and Instagram. I am betterinmotion and Kelly is 1hundredprojects. Kelly 1:08:47 Until next time, we're the Two Eews Marsha 1:08:49 doing our part for world fleece! Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Mmmhmm honey client success stories are some of my favorite episodes and you are going to love hearing the behind the scenes of Suzanne's journey as she more than doubled her income while inside The Cohort as a Brand Builder & Creative Strategist, and deeply found her magnetism and voice - to the point where she received a POWERFUL overnight manifestation with one of her corporate clients after she wrote a list of what she desired the night prior. A few of Suzanne's wins include: Doubling her income with 2 of her primary corporate clients bringing in additional $5k/month on retainer Closed her first $4k client when she had previously been working for $150/hr Negotiating a 10% sponsorship cut for herself with one of her corporate clients Stepping into being Queen and able to lead her life powerfully to receive her desires Suzanne also shares the intimate details of her experience inside The Cohort, how she raised her wealth consciousness dramatically, the power of being in sisterhood, and how she was opened up to receive more. THE GO ALL IN SALE FOR THE COHORT closes EOD Friday, July 30th until doors for the container open again! This work is wildly powerful for the women who say yes. Join us and go all in. https://www.jocelynkellyreid.com/the-cohort Not quite ready to go all in on your business - well babe it's never too soon to go all in your money by joning Money Queen, the self led abundance course that continues to generate insane results for the women inside. https://www.jocelynkellyreid.com/money-queen You are still able to rate and review the podcast, DM your screenshot to me and receive $200 off any of my offers. Follow Me: https://www.instagram.com/jocelyn.kelly.reid/ Join my free sisterhood Born To Be a Boss https://www.facebook.com/groups/511848006411418

This week the trend is to chat about Relient K and their breakthrough to the mainstream with 2004's MmHmm. We welcome friend of the show and Relient K fan Matt Kelly to discuss the Christian music success and how it was received by Top 40 radio, MTV2, and all things in between. Be sure to follow us on all social media @HSNEpod and visit http://www.hsnepod.com for official merchandise and more! Join in the conversation on our official Discord https://discord.gg/b3AdrAYURm  High School Never Ends is a part of the Dragon Wagon Radio independent podcast network.  www.dragonwagonradio.com 

Paul learns Janie has the 'second sight.' Janie learns maybe it is just the second time she's said something, and the two ring in 2021 with appropriate trepidation.

We're talking mental health

What's better than two white dudes discussing the history of hip-hop? How about if Cody throws in some Sugarhill Gang bars? Mmmhmm, it's gonna be that kind of time when he sits down with guest Zach Malott to chart the bucket hat's progress from Big Bank Hank to LL Cool J, all the way to ScHoolboy Q and the crossover between hip-hop and skate culture. Let's go! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/deathtaxesandhats/support

Are you too busy for sex, self-care and all of the nourishing things in life?Do you feel chaotic, stressed, and too tired to even think about getting turned on?Mmmhmm. I feel you.So I made this episode to give you some tough lovin' on the being "busy".Ennjoy! And let me know your thoughts xx

Pride magic. Coronavirus is back in full. With Spunkmeyer Brown!

Pride magic. Coronavirus is back in full. With Spunkmeyer Brown!

My Goodness. Childhood trauma. Wish.com. The art of burping. pushups

My Goodness. Childhood trauma. Wish.com. The art of burping. pushups

Do you feel like you would like to be somewhere listening to something that matters? Then how about Danny and Jess discussing Relient K's song More Than Useless off the album Mmmhmm.// Patreon: www.patreon.com/sadiehawkinspod// Voice Mail: (402) 95-SADIE// Email: sadiehawkinspod@gmail.com// Twitter @sadiehawkinspod// Instagram @sadiehawkinspod

A little movie talk a little corona talk a little general talk

A little movie talk a little corona talk a little general talk

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! This week we’re talking about pirates and sadly, not those of the Caribbean variety.  The internet is littered with websites that sell (or claim to give away) pirated copies of books and addressing this situation can be a long and daunting process.  In this episode we talk about what kind of websites your book could end up on, what it is that the people that run them are after, and how to get your book taken down should pirates get ahold of it … this unfortunately involved a lot less of the ‘bribe them with rum’ tactic that we had hoped. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and if you’ve been spending your days in quarantine baking, tell us what you’ve made and stay safe everyone! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast     Rekka (00:00): Welcome back to another episode of we make books a show about writing, publishing and everything in between. I'm Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. New Speaker (00:10): And I'm Kaelyn. I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. New Speaker (00:13): So I know I've made a big Kaelyn. Kaelyn (00:17): Yeah, I mean I've done that for awhile, but, uh, is there any specific reason - Rekka (00:21): The day that I got the Google search term alert that my book had shown up on a pirate site, that's how I knew I'd made it. Kaelyn (00:28): It is a, it is a little bit of a marker in your career, isn't it? Rekka (00:32): Bingo square. I mean, like, it's not like I'm not gonna do anything about it, but, uh, you know, before I turn around and forward that email to my publisher and say, Hey, just so you know, please go take care of this. Um, I did bask in the having arrived-ness of that moment. Kaelyn (00:48): Yeah. It's, um, it's, you know, what did they say? SNL, Sesame street. Those are the big markers in your career. Rekka (00:54): I haven't made that one yet. I haven't done any of those pirated website, so I'm not, today we're talking about pirates, but not the awesome kind, not the kind in my books, the kind to take my books. Kaelyn (01:08): The kinds who take books and um, you know, put them on the website for all to, to read without paying for them, which as I think we've, you know, if you've listened to any of our previous episodes, we obviously come down very strongly against. Rekka (01:21): We don't like it . Kaelyn (01:29): Yeah. Kind of against that for various reasons. This was, a listener sent us this question, you know, asking about, um, pirates pirate websites, what you can do to prevent that from happening and what to do if it does happen. So, um, no, I think that's a pretty, there's a as much of a comprehensive walkthrough Rekka (01:38): Yeah. I mean, yeah, the problem itself is pretty simple. It's the solution that's kind of a bear. Yeah, exactly. Kaelyn (01:50): So anyway, uh, take a listen and um, as always, we hope you enjoy it Speaker 3 (02:08): [inaudible] Kaelyn (02:11): Well, I think we're getting this remote recoder thing, kind of uh, we're doing okay, right? Rekka (02:14): Hey, we're not coughing and we have no difficulty breathing, so it's a good song. We're a step ahead of a lot of other people at this point. Kaelyn (02:24): So, Hey everyone, uh, welcome back. We are, um, again recording remotely. Rekka (02:32): We are trying to uh, batch up some episodes. It's not that hopefully in the future you will say it, but the play gold meet lasted two weeks. Kaelyn (02:41): First of all, if it's a plague, it doesn't last two weeks. New Speaker (02:44): No, no, no. I'm sure it's fine. I'm in two weeks from now, we'll all be laughing about this. New Speaker (02:49): Um, by definition I think plagues must last longer than to be - New Speaker (02:54): Fine. You know, it never argue with an editor. They've got receipts in and the sources and stuff. Kaelyn (03:01): Well also when I was in grad school, I was a TA for a professor who specialized in history of medicine. So I had to TA a class, God, I think like three or four times. That was the history of plague and epidemic, Rekka (03:16): fFine, whatever. Or you're a semi expert on the subject. Kaelyn (03:19): Oh God, no, not at all. Rekka (03:21): We'll get out there and heal some people. If you're so smart. Kaelyn (03:22): We'll do. Okay. Rekka (03:26): Um, but anyway, yes. So we were, this is another one from the batch that we recorded, um, before my second surgery. So hopefully the world is a much better place as you're listening to this. Kaelyn (03:36): Well, the other side of this now. Yeah, but you know what doesn't make the world a good place? Rekka (03:42): Piracy. Kaelyn (03:43): Pirates. Rekka (03:44): See, I really subscribed to the romantic notion of pirates. I really want them to be good hearted people at their core that just work on the outside of regulation and law yet see that occasionally have like really exciting chase scenes with the law enforcement, but everyone ends up okay, Kaelyn (04:07): Well here's the thing about pirates Rekka and they're not really great people. Now don't get me wrong, in the early days of piracy, there was a lot to respected, possibly even admire. There was a, they were one of the first groups to have socialized medicine. Rekka (04:22): Right. Who were bringing it all the way back around. Kaelyn (04:27): And the concept of, um, worker's comp. If you were, uh, injured aboard a pirate ship and let's say you lost a hand, you were afforded a higher percentage of recovered booty. Rekka (04:38): Booty. Kaelyn (04:41): Now, that said pirates. Definitely were very into the pillaging, raping and maiming and above all stealing. Rekka (04:49): Yeah. Kaelyn (04:50): And in our modern day, that is what pirates continue to do now. So why are we talking about pirates? Well, this one actually comes from a listener who, uh, sent us a message and asked if we had any tips or tricks to dealing with people stealing your book. Pirates, putting it online without paying for it. Rekka (05:12): So obviously we're specifically talking about eBooks. Kaelyn (05:15): We are specifically talking about eBooks. If it would be really weird if they went out and bought physical copies of your book and then sold them online at that point, that just makes them a bookstore. Rekka (05:24): Right? So that makes them what a second hand bookstore. But no, you're right. So it's hard. The reason that, um, ebook piracy is so much stronger than print book piracy is because yes, those print books are, um, individual items that can only be resold or given away once. Um, yes, if they buy your book and then give it away physically, they are a library. If they buy your book and sell it, they are a bookstore and we like those people. We like both of those categories - Kaelyn (05:53): Those are great people. Rekka (05:54): Yes. But yeah, it's um, ebook, they get one file and they can give it away an unlimited number of times and that's a problem. Kaelyn, why is it a problem? Kaelyn (06:05): It's a problem because then you're not making money off the book. Now I'm going to head on - Rekka (06:09): Who's not making money off the book? Kaelyn (06:10): Everyone who was involved in the book that should be getting money from it is now not making money off the book. Right. Um, I'm going to head off this discussion right here by saying that there are a lot of people who will say that people who are going to go online and find pirated book versions of your book would not have bought it in the first place. Rekka (06:29): And this isn't actually 100% true. Kaelyn (06:32): It's not completely wrong. But yes, there is definitely a certain crowd of people that scour these websites, which by the way, we will not be naming any of them in this episode. The scour these websites, and that is how they consume books. They only get pirated copies online. And in those cases, yes, those people probably would not have bought the book no matter what. Um, that said there is a large segment as well that could go by the book and just wants to get it online for whatever reason. Rekka (07:04): Or just let, let me see if it's free first and then I'll buy it. Yeah, I'm using it as part of their budgeting system for their entertainment. Um, there is an anecdote, I don't recall who it was, but someone, an author, I think self-published uploaded their own book to a pirate site and inside it had the first two or three chapters and then at the end and explanation of why pirating costs that author their livelihood and a link to their website to go buy the book. Yeah. And apparently the response on the pirate site was, wow, that sucks. This book is really good. Now I have to go buy it and finish it. And a lot of them did. But chances are you aren't controlling this situation and someone else has uploaded a listing that matches your book's title and your author name. Kaelyn (07:58): So let's, as Rekka is kind of pointing to, let's talk about how and why your book may end up online. How's pretty easy? Somebody gets a hold of the digital file, assuming that they are able to get a hold of the digital file, puts it online for people to download. Who are these people and why are they doing this? Well, the answer is a pirates people who are trying to make money off of, um, giving your book away. Now, I'm saying giving your book away. But a lot of times that is not actually what's happening. And that is for one of two reasons. If you find that your book is showing up on a pirate website, there's a very good chance they don't actually have your book. New Speaker (08:39): Right. They are, they pulled some information off Amazon. Maybe they got a couple of the preview chapters off of there. They dump it in. And what they're actually trying to do is drive traffic to their website. Um, it could be primarily ad based, you know, some create websites that are just trying to get people to go there so that they can charge for ads. Right. Um, sometimes what they're trying to do is get you to sign up for a subscription for these supposedly free pirated books. Um, some of these are paid subscriptions. In some cases they just want your email address and information because that's also a very valuable market. Rekka (09:15): Yeah. They can sell that and they're not selling it to people who, um, who are going to do responsible things with that information. Kaelyn (09:22): Yeah. Conversely, if we go to even the further nefarious side of this, uh, they could say, okay, great, you signed up for free, here's the file, download it and that is a virus. Rekka (09:34): Yup. Kaelyn (09:35): Um, or that is some kind of, uh, key tracker or encryption breaker that is now going to take all of the information that it could possibly get from you. Rekka (09:45): I mean, I think it's a pretty reasonable piece of advice that if you're going to a website that is doing things that are unlawful, maybe don't trust downloads from that website. I mean, that's just me. Yeah. Kaelyn (09:57): That, um, that seems pretty sensible. Look at it this way. There is nobody out there who is going, you know what I really want to do? I want to give books away for free. I'm going to set up a website that is totally legit, completely above board where I'm going to steal people's books and put them on here so other people can read them. So the first that I'm going to set up a legit, totally above board website that steals books. Rekka (10:14): First of all, those two things don't happen in the same vacuum. Kaelyn (10:23): Yes, yes. And also some of you are going, wait a second, this sounds familiar. Yes, you're correct. That is called a library. Rekka (10:32): Yes. If you cannot afford to buy the book, go to the library instead. Here's a really, really, really, really cool fact. Libraries pay for the books that they buy. Yes, they do not return books, which is excellent for the author and the publisher also. Um, they have them in digital print and audio have available. So you can get the book in whatever format you want for free and you are actually supporting the author. Like if you, if you say, look, I really love this author. I read everything by them. I, you know, I hope they do well. I just can't afford books. Library. Please go to the library. Authors love it when they find out their books are in libraries and the library, if a book is popular, we'll buy multiple copies. Yup. It's amazing. It's almost like this is the way it was designed to work. Almost like the, I suppose the idea the whole time. Yeah. Oh yeah. So that is, that is the a hundred percent best alternative. If you meet a free book, absolutely. We support that. Go get it from the library please. Kaelyn (11:32): Yes. So all of them, uh, you know, just common sense. Should it imply here that any thing you're going to, to get something illegal could have some sketchy elements to it. And don't get me wrong, this is illegal. You are not, this is not something, you know, we're don't talking about books here that, um, you know, are part of the, uh, the common domain at this point. Rekka (11:54): But Kaelyn, information wants to be free. Kaelyn (11:58): This isn't information. Rekka (11:59): Right. This is IP. This is someone's property. Kaelyn (12:02): Yes. This is intellectual property. And you could say, I mean, now granted, you know, we both work in genre fiction. I'm talking, you know, we're not just talking about novels and uh, and fiction books. Um, you could say, well, somebody wrote this great book about how to, you know, build your own computer and I want to do that. Well, here's the thing. Somebody wrote that book and they did it for a reason. They put a lot of time and effort into it and the, there's no, you're not entitled to that person's knowledge and ability. Rekka (12:33): I mean, folks already complained that, you know, ebook prices cost so much and print book prices costs so much, but the fact is that it's still lower than the rate that they would give that book away if it was only being given away once. Like if an author wants to make a livable wage, they need all of the sales of the book at that price because the author doesn't even get a, you know, chunk of that. They get a sliver. Kaelyn (13:00): Well, and I'll take that a step further if you want to. You know, if you think the cost of a how-to book is too high, go take a class, see how much that costs. Hire somebody to come do it for you and see how much that costs. Rekka (13:13): Or buy a pre-made. Kaelyn (13:15): Yeah. These are people's skills and knowledge and intellect and time and time. They've worked hard to build and cultivate these things. This is a product the same way a farmer selling apples is selling a product, right? Um, so a lot of those lines up there is a very good chance that if you ever publish something, it is going to end up on a pirated website. And we at Parvus, I've had this happen a couple of times. The first time it happened we were almost a little happy. We were like, wow, we've made it on the map. Somebody actually stolen one of our books. Um, and then we were like, Oh crap, we better deal with that. So your book has shown up on a part at website. What do you do now? I am going to qualify this entire spiel of what is to come here. By saying that depending on aware the website is hosted in the world, I mean not just like, you know, what shady part of the internet. Rekka (14:14): Okay. Kaelyn (14:15): There may be very little you can do. Rekka (14:19): Right. Um, however, we are fortunate that a lot of, uh, cloud based servers and such are, are being used for hosting now and many of these are owned by corporations that will honor a take down request. Kaelyn (14:32): Yes. Now I'm going to use China as an example here because, uh, I then a cursory examination of this will show you that a lot of this comes up in China because, um, trade agreements and IP agreements and there's a lot of problems with China in general. Um, uh, reproducing. Yes. Things, let's call it that. Rekka (14:56): And I've run into this in the manufacturing world too. Kaelyn (14:58): Yes. Well that's what I was saying. Even in the manufacturing world, there is a lot of problems with dealing with things being stolen and remade in China and having no course to address this because China is not party to a lot of the international agreements that would give you recourse to address this. Rekka (15:19): Yup. Kaelyn (15:20): Um, okay, so that said, you find, you know, your book has shown up on an elicit website. The first thing that you can do is contact the website directly and just tell them, Hey, you've got this thing on here, this is mine. You've stolen it. Um, you know, if you're through a publisher, the publisher, you know, we've had to do this at our best, um, and demand, do they take it down? Okay. So then you're wrong. Well, how on earth do I, how do I do that? If a, you know, a lot of these, these kinds of websites aren't going to have the click here to contact us. Kaelyn (15:58): But, uh, so there's a great website out there called whois.com. Um, and what this is what this website is. It is just information about websites online and you can put in a website address and it's going to give you all of the information that it can about this particular website. Uh, the hosted platform, the domain, the registrar, everything. So the first thing you can do is go in and find the email address associated with the master account for the website and email them directly. Now who is, does do a thing where you can pay them to have that information, uh, privately blocked. And the reason for this is, you know, let's say like you've got a website and you don't want people to just be able to go find your email address in plastered everywhere. So it's gonna say something like privacy@gmail.com or privacy with some numbers at gmail.com. You can still email that what the address and it just redirects to the actual email address. The idea is just that you can't see it, Rekka (17:06): Right. So if you were trying to, um, you know, as an individual mask, as much of your private information as you can, when you register your domain name, it's cheaper to pay for a domain name privacy than it is to like register a PO box and have an address that isn't your home address and you know, that sort of thing. So yeah, this is a totally legit use of, um, privacy Kaelyn (17:31): I'd go so far as to recommend it setting up a, um, you know, an author website or something. It's probably not a bad thing to have. Um, okay. So, you know, people are probably at home scoffing going like, yeah, like they're gonna listen to that. Um, here's the thing. If what you're doing at that point is you're not really threatening them with legal action or you're not threatening them with the fact that they're giving away your book, you're threatening them with their website, you're threatening a business, a line of income at that point. Um, because, and the success rates here, you know, of course vary wildly, but one of the things you're doing is threatening their line of business. And how much of a response are you going to get for this? No way to know it. And again, a big part of this could depend on where this person is physically located in the world. Rekka (18:30): Yup. And if they're smart enough to make sure their host is also physically located there, um, you know, sometimes you're going to find these eBooks on legitimate bookstores. Like, um, people have found that their Kindle unlimited books show up in Apple books because someone has copied it and listed it for sale because they know that being a Kindle unlimited book, that authors not watching that book on Apple and then usually they find out because Kindle unlimited got mad at them and Amazon sent them a nasty note about it. So, um, when it's a legitimate ebook store, you're going to have a much easier time. But, but it's the pirating sites we're concerned about. Kaelyn (19:08): Yeah. Most of these are not legitimate sites. Um, so, all right, let's say you have not gotten a response back. You've threatened, you know, like whatever you need to throw in an order, you feel to get their attention. If they don't respond, the next step up now is to contact their hosting service. Now, as record said, a lot of places are cloud based. Now there's a lot of people who use hosting through Amazon or Google or any number of hosting platforms. Um, getting in touch with the hosting platform is going to have varying degrees of success. Um, part of it is that if they are using one of the larger hosting services, it's gonna probably take a while for someone to get around to looking at this. Um, conversely, if they have their own hosting set up, if this is a server that they've got set up, you know, in the back room at their house, and this is a 100% real thing that can happen. I mean, this is not hard to do at all. It's not expensive to go online, buy the necessary equipment and get it set up. It does not require a lot of overhead. It does not require a ton of power and you can keep a lot on those servers, especially when you're doing some, when you're talking about something like books, which are primarily text-based files. Rekka (20:29): Yep. A couple of megabytes each at the most Kaelyn (20:30): Maybe, if that. Rekka (20:31): Yeah. With pictures. Kaelyn (20:33): Yeah. With some pictures assuming that they have pictures because some of these, you know, Rekka (20:37): They'd probably strip a mountain, just deposit the text. Kaelyn (20:39): Yeah. This is where, you know, something else you would notice on a pirate sites is a lot of this is just a dump of plain, barely formatted into a document for you to download. Rekka (20:50): Yup. Kaelyn (20:51): Um, so if they are hosted through a major service or a cloud based service, you have some chance of getting some attention and some action there. Um, again, it could take a while and even then, depending on what it is, the hosted service may be somewhat limited in what it can do. So if that fails, the next question is, okay, what can I do after that? This is when you go to the registrar and you, um, Oh, registrar is a service that allows you to officially register your domain name. And these are, these services are actually regulated. Um, they're regulated by the internet corporation have assigned names and numbers and that is a long fancy way of saying that these are the people that give out IP addresses. Kaelyn (21:47): Um, these are the ones that when you know, for instance, when we went to get our website set up for, uh, this podcast, uh, WB cast.com we went through GoDaddy. GoDaddy is the registrar here. Um, they are regulated by an overseen by ICANN. This uh, internet corporation have assigned names and numbers, um, who oversees a lot of different registrars and make sure that they're keeping things above board and collecting all the right paperwork from the people who register and all that stuff and collecting the taxes. Exactly. The taxes and the fees are the real law. That's the good part there. Uh, now like you probably have heard about like, Oh, a is this domain name taken? You know how much you pay for these? The registrars are the ones that, um, like in the case of GoDaddy, they're notorious for buying, uh, domains and it's sitting on them and reselling them and uh, you know, that that's a legitimate thing you can do. Rekka (22:50): That's their business model. Yep. Kaelyn (22:52): Yeah. The next step up is to contact this registrar, um, and complained to them directly. In some cases you can call them and say, Hey, look at, you know, this, and if you're wondering again, how do I get this information and the hosted information for that matter, again, on who's who is.com, we'll have all of this in that search result. What you'd need to do at this point is to threaten or to actually file what's called a D M C a request the digital millennium copyright act. And what this is supposed to be doing is exactly what it sounds like. Something is violating my copyright of my book. This at this point is supposed to be a last resort and you need to that in any correspondence or conversations with the registrar at this point that you have tried everything else and you've exhausted all of your options. Kaelyn (23:56): You're now to the point that you have to go to the registrar to complain about this. Um, if you're to the point where you have to do this, you can find templates online suggesting you know, how to format this, what information to give them. And um, you know, how to direct this and who to direct it to. Um, Scribd has a good template for this. So there is one final, last step. It's not the same as actually getting this stuff scrubbed, but that has to go directly to the search engines to go to Google and to get them to do list. The search results. Do you list the search results? It's not making it. So the book is taken down, but it is making it so it is either harder or impossible to find. Right? So those are the stepwise parts here. Um, Rekka (24:51): And we'll link in the show notes. There's a really good article on the digital reader that covers a lot of this. And so we'll put those links in the show notes. We got a bunch of links for this episode. I'm just talking about the effect of piracy, the costs of piracy, that sort of thing. And um, and the, these are step-by-step you can follow along, um, in the digital reader's article, which is, which is really good. So, um, you know, you don't have to keep rewinding and writing down what she said, but, um, we always have transcripts too, but um, yeah, so it's, it's long, it's involved, but um, is it worth your time? Kaelyn (25:29): Well, you decide. Um, again, I will, I really want to emphasize that this is not an easy process. Even if the person is, let's say you're in America and this, uh, website is also hosted in America. It's still not an easy process to deal with all of this. Rekka (25:48): You got a D cross all your T's and dot all your I's to even get your email acknowledged. Kaelyn (25:53): Yeah. Now there, there used to be a service called Blasty. Do you remember Blasty, Rekka? Rekka (25:59): I've never heard of it. Kaelyn (26:00): Blasty was, um, it was, uh, I guess technically like a software bundle that you'd pay for and you'd put all the relevant information in and then it would basically do all of those steps for you. Rekka (26:13): Mmmhmm. Kaelyn (26:14): Uh, blasty does not exist anymore, unfortunately. Uh, they in last year had some very strange stuff happen with them. I still don't entirely understand. There was all of a sudden accusations of corruption and, uh, illicit payments being made and various things and then they just kind of disappeared. Their website is even gone. Um, which is a shame because it was kind of a good way to handle this if you were willing to pay for the service. Um - Rekka (26:41): Well there are services that will still handle sending your DMC notices. Kaelyn (26:46): Yes. Rekka (26:46): Um, they're going to be expensive, but it's because it's so tedious and because you have to stay on top of these things to make sure it actually gets handled. So, you know, if you're getting to the point where you really feel that the book sales that the piracy is costing, you are worth paying for a service to handle this. Um, which is not going to be until people know who you are to be looking for you anyway. Because what happens is these pirate sites, they pirate your books because they know that people are searching for your name and your title. Kaelyn (27:16): Yes. But in some cases, um, it's a, it's a volume game with them. Uh, they're gonna throw as many books as they can get their hands on onto one of these sites. Um, the, again, just if you're ever considering looking at or going to one of these websites, first of all, don't, but second, think about the people sitting on the other side of this. They are not doing this out of the goodness of their heart. Yes. Um, Rekka (27:47): they're not doing it because due to unforeseen circumstances, they could not complete their library degree. Kaelyn (27:52): Yeah. They're actually, what did that be? Something. Rekka (27:57): These are all rogue library scientists that just couldn't finish. And - Kaelyn (28:01): I was unfairly kicked out of life, my librarian program for giving away too many books. Rekka (28:07): I gave away too many books if they didn't like it. Kaelyn (28:09): So now I'm on the other side of the law. I will never stop, be stopped from giving away books. Um, there was a story. Um, but the people who are doing this are not doing it because they are rogue librarians out there giving away books and stories and information because they love to, they have ulterior and often to furious motives at best. They either want you to want to get your email and information or they want you to click on pages so they can make money from the website. That is the best case scenario Rekka (28:47): Yeah, that that's the least harmful case. Yes, it gets worse from there. Kaelyn (28:51): It gets worse. And I mean, viruses, identity theft, they are absolutely selling your information. Don't delude yourself into thinking they're not. So stay away from these websites for a lot of reasons. One - Rekka (29:07): Because you're a good person and you want to support authors and publishers Kaelyn (29:11): Yeah, because they suck and the people that run them suck. And you should not be stealing people's work and putting it out there for the world without them being properly compensated for it. If you want books and you cannot afford them request them from your library also, there's this great thing you can do with a Kindle and eBooks. You can share them. Rekka (29:31): Yup. Some of them to front some of them. Kaelyn (29:33): Yes. But like sometimes you can, you can loan them to friends. Um, there are other ways of getting these that are not jeopardizing not only the writer's livelihood, but also their ability to produce and create in the future. Rekka (29:50): Yep. And I will say for, you know, there are areas where it might be like distant from a good library or something. All you need is a membership to a library. And usually the only thing you need for membership to library is to be a resident of the same state. So if you can sign up for a library in your state, even if you can't walk in because it's not that close, once you have that membership, you can take it to I think, Libby or overdrive. And um, that's how you get the eBooks. And I mean, your library might have their own service, but basically it's usually Libby or Overdrive and then you can search under, you know, quote unquote under your library for the books you want. But it's coming from a large pool of books that are out there. And sometimes they're all checked out because that's how libraries work. But you can just get in line for that book and you can read it and when it comes available. Yep. Kaelyn (30:39): So that's, uh, that's kind of the, the story with pirates. Um, unfortunately they are not all ambling around doing bad Keith Richards impressions wearing a lot of very heavy eyeliner. I hey, don't get me wrong. I enjoy it. I enjoy it. Rekka (30:59): Um, yeah, I prefer the black sails. Uh, pirates these days, even though pirates of the Caribbean did inspire my novel trilogy. I will say that, uh, the black sails series, if you haven't watched that, go watch that. If you want, if you want to get involved with pirates, go watch that. Um, leave the pirate sites alone. Um, yeah, I will say, you know, you have some hope if you find your book on a legitimate site or a site with a legitimate host. Um, there has been some advice in the, and Kaelyn, you know, alluded to this at the very beginning of the episode, um, in the self publishing community that says, um, Hey, these were never your, uh, your readers anyway. Don't worry about it. Just be happy that your book is out there getting exposure. Um, I disagree with that. Um, I think self publishing authors are probably going to start disagreeing with that too now that it's getting more competitive and um, it's not quite the, you know, boom days that it used to be. So, um, I think it's worth your time to try and get them removed. Um, it's also legally a good thing to be doing to defend your copyrights. Yeah. Because if you don't defend your copyrights, then you know, the law sees, starts to see things differently than you might imagine they would. Kaelyn (32:19): There is, um, you know, the, and this is very subjective what I'm about to say. Uh, there is the case to be made that let's say down the line, you do actually end up in court over something, be it related to this or not. And the question comes up, well, you saw that people were this stuff before, didn't you? Well, why, why is it bothering you now? Why didn't it bother you then? Right now that said, this is a very time consuming and often mentally draining process. Um, so the, it is completely understandable to throw your hands up in the air and say, I just don't want to deal with this right now. Rekka (33:01): So you might be wondering, Oh my God, is my book already out on pirate sites and Oh my God, do I have to spend every morning crawling pirate sites in order to see if my book has popped up? Because what will happen is if you have a like peer-to-peer piracy site, they might take it down one day and then five minutes later or the next day or a week later, it's back up. So how do you know, um, some of them are behind a paywall, like we mentioned some of these pirate sites or subscriptions. So the only way to know what's in their data bank is unless they make the DataBank public, but you can't download unless you logged in. Um, the only way to know it would be to pay and it's, you're not going to do that. You don't want to support that. Um, but what I do, and I know Parvus does for their authors is set up a Google search term alert. So just put your author name in and your titles of your books and then you get an email. Kaelyn (33:51): We keep the Google search term alerts for numerous reasons. Basically, you know, we - Rekka (33:56): And sometimes that's how you find up the find out that a review is posted. You know, Kaelyn (34:01): you know, if Rekka's name suddenly starts popping up in conjunction with, um, you know, things like police arrested, Rekka (34:08): Hey, now she's not a lot of faith in me. I just learned this is a, um, this is a moment, hang on, I gotta I gotta recover from this. Kaelyn (34:19): It's okay. They have a Google news alert set up for me too. I'm really the one that they're waiting for - Rekka (34:22): Yeah, you're the one that's going to get in trouble first. Kaelyn (34:25): It's associated with a terms like "bizarre incident" and "neighbors say" Rekka (34:30): And explicable. Kaelyn (34:33): Yeah, no, of all of the people associated with Parvus, I am far and away the one most likely to end up on the news. Rekka (34:39): Yeah. Kaelyn (34:43): The New York post. Rekka (34:45): But anyway, yeah, but so what I'm saying is, is set a Google search similar and forget it, you know, move on. And what's going to happen is you are going to get notifications of things like reviews and it's just as a quick aside, if it's a negative review, that doesn't mean you have to respond to it just because it came to your inbox through a Google search alert. You're just going to leave that - Kaelyn (35:06): Go back and listen to the reviews episode. Rekka (35:08): Don't do it. Just don't do that. But yeah, so that's a possibility with um, with those search term alerts. But they are good for helping you learn when someone has listed your book. Um, because pretty much that's the only way I learned since I'm not going to be found on a pirate site, even though I love pirates, but just not that kind. You were on a pirate site, huh? Thought some was on a pirate site. Yeah. Yeah. But I found out through the Google search term cause I wasn't good. No, I meant I personally, my personal habit not to spend any time downloading from pirate sites. Yes. Kaelyn (35:41): I was going to say flotsam was absolutely on a pirate site. That was one of our first real, uh, I was the one. You were the first one we found and then we found Vick's and, we, and we were like, I wonder what else is on here? Oh shit. Everything. And that's, you know, that's the thing is that so many books end up on these things. There are people whose jobs are only two. They just, this is their lives. They just scour websites, scrape the internet, try to come up with this stuff. I've put it on a website Rekka (36:14): Do you think when they were young and someone asks them what they want to be when they grow up, they thought I'm going to be part of the book protectorate. Kaelyn (36:21): Pirate. Rekka (36:23): Pirate? Kaelyn (36:23): No. What? They said - Rekka (36:25): They probably said pirate and now instead that they're they're calling and defense. No, I'm saying the person whose job it is, this is their career. Their paid position is to go in and send, take down notices. Kaelyn (36:37): I like, I like that. I always should get them a badge. Official book protector. Rekka (36:42): Yes. Member of the protector. It, yes. I like it. Yes. Um, okay. So uh, I think that Rekka (36:50): Hopefully that answers the question. I mean what do you do to prevent it? You don't, yeah, there's really nothing you can do because the Stephen King books are there. Like you can't be big enough to be too big for this. You can't be small enough to be too small for this. Kaelyn (37:04): No such thing as the size of an audience or the size of a publisher that is going to prevent this from happening. Right. So, um, uh, I think we mentioned it earlier, uh, Jason Kimball had, uh, sent us that question, so, you know, thanks Jason. We always like questions and answering them on this show. Um, if you have any questions that you'd like to send us, Rekka (37:27): You can send them to us @WMBcast on Twitter or Instagram through the DMS there. You can send a emailed questions to info@wmbcast and you can find us also on patreon.com/wmbcast and all of our back episodes are at wmbcast.com and we'd love to hear from you, even if you don't have a specific question or you just want to react to the episode or start up a chat with us, you can do that on Twitter. Probably is the best bot. And, um, if you do not want to engage with us, but you want to shout about us to the world, you can always share our, um, our episodes with a friend who might find them useful. And you could especially please leave a review or rating, especially a review on Apple podcasts. We love reviews, so that would be super helpful and help other people find us and love our show as much as you do. So thanks again for listening and we really appreciate you and we hope your books never show up on pirate sites.  

When the Podcast hits the mid-60s of the triple j hottest 100 of 2000 it thinks lots of things What they know throws the blows when they go for the take, they'll find some tracks great and some are half-baked... SONGS COVERED: 65. Motor Ace - American Shoes 64. Everlast - Black Jesus 63. Coldplay - Shiver 62. Fiona Apple - Fast as You Can 61. george - Spawn Theme music by Sweet Potato (aka Wax Ecstatic) Editing and audio engineering by Adam Buncher Like this episode? Share it with a friend! LIKE HOTTEST 100S AND 1000S ON FACEBOOK: hottest100sand1000s FOLLOW HOTTEST 100S AND 1000S ON TWITTER: @Hottest100s AND YOUR HOSTS: @AndrewM138 | @NLFHarrison See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

When the Podcast hits the mid-60s of the triple j hottest 100 of 2000 it thinks lots of things What they know throws the blows when they go for the take, they'll find some tracks great and some are half-baked... SONGS COVERED: 65. Motor Ace - American Shoes 64. Everlast - Black Jesus 63. Coldplay - Shiver 62. Fiona Apple - Fast as You Can 61. george - Spawn LIKE HOTTEST 100S AND 1000S ON FACEBOOK: hottest100sand1000s FOLLOW HOTTEST 100S AND 1000S ON TWITTER: @Hottest100s AND YOUR HOSTS: @AndrewM138 | @NLFHarrison

- Nine days till Christmas!!! - Birthday Bash News - What happened, Luke Bryan? - Unreleased "Home Alone" footage - Cancelled Tours - Happy National Chocolate-Covered Anything Day! MmmHmm!!!

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! November is (somehow) just around the corner and for a lot of people in the writing community it’s that magical time of year: NaNoWriMo!  In this episode, we talk about all aspects of this highly anticipated month.  What is NaNoWriMo?  How and when did it start?  What do you have to do to participate and what should you have when you are finished?  Rekka and Kaelyn take a deep dive into what to expect during NaNoWriMo, plus offer some important Thanksgiving-while-writing tips. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and tell us if you are planning to participate in NaNoWriMo so we can cheer you on! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast       Kaelyn: 00:03   Hey everyone, welcome back. Another episode of the, we make books podcast to show about writing, publishing and everything in between. I'm Kaelyn Considine and I am the Acquisitions Editor for Parvus Press. Rekka: 00:12   And I'm Rekka. I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn: 00:21   And today is a learning episode for me. We're talking about NaNoWriMo today or national novel writing month. And this is a little embarrassing for me to admit, but I did not actually know a whole lot about this. I knew it was a thing that happened. I knew it was a massive community event. There's, you know, November my Twitter feed is just covered in hashtag NaNoWriMo and I knew what the, the goal was. I know what was kind of going on here, but outside of that, I really did not know too much about the ins and outs. So, um, Rekka has some expertise in this - Rekka: 00:51   I am a municipal liaison for my NaNoWriMo region, um, which if you don't even know what that means, we'll go into a little bit in episode. And, uh, so yeah, I, I, you know, I pitched to Kaelyn like, Hey, last episode of October, people are going to be looking forward to NaNoWriMo, but there are also people who have no idea what it is and they're seeing everyone in a flurry talking about it right now. Kaelyn: 01:17   And then I raised my hand and said, yes, I'm one of those people. Rekka: 01:19   Yes, exactly. So yeah, we, um, we decided, we covered this, uh, this will be like an evergreen episode unless something major changes with the NaNoWriMo program. But, um, yeah, it happened. Kaelyn: 01:31   You never know. Rekka: 01:31   It could happen. So this will probably be our one NaNoWriMo episode, um, unless we decide to come back in maybe in, uh, December of another year and saying, okay, now what do you do with your NaNoWriMo project? We'll talk about that more in this episode, but yeah, this is a definition, uh, pros and cons. Uh, then what do you do kind of conversation. And, um, hopefully if you are excited about NaNoWriMo, you will just enjoy hearing somebody else talking about it. And if you don't even know what NaNoWriMo is, then I'm, hopefully you'll learn. And maybe, you know, by planning your own project. Kaelyn: 02:06   So by the end of the episode, you'll know, so, um, everyone take a listen, uh, hope you as always, hopefully educational and informative. Rekka: 02:12   Don't tell them it's educational, thy'll stop listening. Kaelyn: 02:17   That's a good point. Yeah. No, no, nothing, nothing of value in terms of - Rekka: 02:21   Fun and games, frivolity and skullduggery throughout the entire episode. Kaelyn: 02:26   Exactly. So I'm take a listen. We, uh, hope you enjoy Speaker 3:       02:39   [inaudible] Kaelyn: 02:50   NaNoWriMo, NaNoWriMo. [inaudible] so we're talking about, yeah. Rekka: 02:55   Do you want to start? Yeah, give us the whole background. Kaelyn: 03:00   Oh, I no, because I'm, I, uh, don't know too much about this. I know kind of the, the basics of it. I know what the goal is. I know, you know, it's a big sort of writing community event. Um, but even just from some of the things you've been telling me now, I had no idea it was so extensively organized. Rekka: 03:19   It's a whole thing. Kaelyn: 03:19   Um, there's this whole underground going on and - Rekka: 03:23   It's not that underground. Kaelyn: 03:24   No, it's not. It's not. And it's funny because you know, obviously like this time of year, Twitter blows up with all of this stuff and like I, you know, very aware that it's happening. I've just never really looked into it that much. I just know that I get the product of it typically. Rekka: 03:42   Okay, well we'll get to that. So NaNoWriMo is short for National Novel Writing Month and unlike national talk like a pirate day, this is not just like, Oh ha ha how cute for a lot of people this is like their big holiday season. Kaelyn: 03:57   Yeah. This is, I didn't like, again, I knew this was a very serious thing that people took very seriously. I did not realize the organization and planning that goes into this. Rekka: 04:08   Right. So to give it a little bit of background, it was begun by a few friends who lived in California and they decided that they would, um, just try writing a novel in a month. That was kind of the, the concept that kicked it all off. And so it started with 21 people in San Francisco Bay area in 1999. And then, um, Kaelyn: 04:37   Oh, so this is the 20th anniversary of this. Rekka: 04:40   Oh yeah, it is, isn't it? Kaelyn: 04:41   How appropriate that this is Episode 20. Rekka: 04:44   Oh. Kaelyn: 04:44   We did that on purpose. Absolutely. Rekka: 04:46   Okay. Did you feel that? I think I just felt like the universe tear a little. Um, so yeah. Yeah, I guess it's, it's the 20th anniversary of the very start of it. Um, it didn't go national until the following year when they put up a website for it. So in 2000 they um, they not only put up a website, but they moved it to November. So the first year was a July. Kaelyn: 05:12   Okay. Rekka: 05:13   So, um, they were in California. They don't even notice the difference between July and November. Kaelyn: 05:17   Well, certainly not in, in San Francisco. Rekka: 05:19   San Francisco. Yeah. So I'm a nice balmy, probably 72 degrees throughout the year and um, they didn't even notice, but they moved it to November because they figured for most people who are, at least in the Northern hemisphere, they will be looking for a way to avoid like gloomy, rainy, shorter days and stuff like that. Kaelyn: 05:41   November's a brutal month, November and February. Rekka: 05:42   The funny thing is they, they chose it on a month where typically people have at least a week of travel or holiday planning to deal with. Kaelyn: 05:54   Yeah, I was wondering about that actually. Rekka: 05:58   So I find that, well, one my family doesn't travel for Thanksgiving. Um, so I find that it's not really an interruption for me. If anything, there's usually a couple extra days off work during that week. And so I can take advantage of that. Um, people who have family come into town probably have a harder time of it because their life is disrupted, but for whatever reason, they felt that November the month of gloom amd Turkey would be Turkey for those of us who celebrate Thanksgiving in the U S they've felt it would be the, uh, the proper month to choose. So the second year they had 140 participants. Kaelyn: 06:41   Okay. Rekka: 06:42   So not bad growth from 21. Kaelyn: 06:44   No it's pretty good. Rekka: 06:45   But, um, yeah, by a few years ago they had about half a million people. So it's been growing. And then of course by word of mouth, as everyone gets excited and talks about it, they um, they draw more people in. I think it's probably the best organic marketing campaign that anyone could have. Um, ironically it's a 5013- C nonprofit organization, but they do help, um, kids in schools get interested in writing through their young writers program. Kaelyn: 07:18   Yeah. Rekka: 07:18   The NaNoWriMo itself is free to participate in, they collect donations, so if you donate to them through their website, your avatar on that site has a halo slung over one corner. So in theory, anyone with internet access can participate in the community. I've heard of plenty of people who do NaNoWriMo without ever logging onto the website as well. Kaelyn: 07:41   Yeah. Because it's not, well, and we'll get into this a little bit, but it's something that can just be done entirely independently. You just declare, I am doing NaNoWriMo and then you do NaNoWriMo. Rekka: 07:53   And then you sit down and you figure out how you're going to do it. You figure out how you're going to do your word count. I mean, I know people who handwrite in a notebook, their 50,000 words for NaNoWriMo, which makes my wrist scream in agony at the thought. But for some people still have limber carpal tunnel ligaments then. Kaelyn: 08:09   Well, yeah, because they're writing everything. They're not typing. Yeah. We haven't destroyed all of their - Rekka: 08:16   Well, yeah. And mousing. You can participate through the website, you can choose not to. Um, but one of the advantages that I love about NaNoWriMo and why I think it's so successful is that, you know, so many people online who are participating. So people who are good friends of yours in person may show up and write with you in person at write-ins, uh, at libraries, cafes, you know, wherever people take over to sit and write for a while. And then, um, you know, you might have friends that you've never met but are also participating in NaNoWriMo online that you can, uh, do community challenges through the NaNoWriMo or through Twitter or Facebook, Slack groups, discord, you know, whatever. And then, um, you have people that you meet by doing NaNoWriMo. So it's community reinforcing, but also community building. And I think that's the power of NaNoWriMo is one, just the general excitement that you are not alone in attempting this feat. Rekka: 09:20   And the support I think is probably incredibly important. The other half is that it's community building as well. So you meet people who have similar passions to you. You know, writing, you meet other people who write in your genre. You might even meet people who beta read your novel for you when, when your draft is done and help you refine it and move it toward completion. So it's a great resource to motivate yourself, but it also can be a great resource for finishing your manuscript once your draft is done. So NaNoWriMo started, as I said, with one month that moved to November. And then what about the rest of the year? Or for people in other hemispheres who, um, you know, their dreary month is, you know, July or April, you know, so there is also camp NaNoWriMo, which of course belies the fact that it's four people in another year by making it sound like a summer event. Rekka: 10:18   But, um, essentially, you know, this is a very, um, Northern hemisphere Western hemisphere centric event and it probably always will be. Um, it's been better about recognizing that people are all over the world. They've got regions all over the world, but it's, it's definitely still got a us centric mindset. And um, so in April when you used to have script frenzy, you know, have the first Camp NaNoWriMo, so this is 30 days, um, in which you set your own goal. It's, it's a much more casual NaNoWriMo project. In theory, in November you were writing at least 50,000 words, but for camp NaNoWriMo, you can go as low as 10,000. Kaelyn: 11:00   Okay. Rekka: 11:00   So if you just wanted to write some poetry or short stories and you wanted to do it at a slower pace, you could say, I'm going to write a, you know, a 3,500 word short story every week for April. Kaelyn: 11:15   That's still a pretty steep undertaking. Rekka: 11:16   That's still a pretty decent undertaking, um, and that would land you with something. I'm doing the math in my head poorly, like 17,000 words or something like that. At the end of the month. Kaelyn: 11:26   14. Rekka: 11:26   Yeah. See I told you before that I went to art school and I'm a writer so that I can avoid these number things. Kaelyn: 11:32   Yeah. Yeah. Rekka: 11:33   Um, so you a can set your own goal. You go to the website, it's definitely not as active, like there's little cute stuff on the website throughout the month, but it's, the community is a lot quieter on social media where you might have experienced tons of sprints on Twitter and a word Wars, whatever you'd like to call them. Um, and then you know, your friends on Facebook are talking about how they're doing their, um, talking in your discord, chat room server, whatever the term is about the progress they're doing and you're all rooting for each other. Rekka: 12:12   Camp NaNoWriMo in April for 30 days and in July for 31 days is a lot more low key. So you pretty much on your own, I've found you might have a friend or two that are doing it. And I've seen a lot of people release themselves from the deadline pretty early in the month. Kaelyn: 12:30   It's not as organized and community driven from what I've seen as NaNoWriMo. Rekka: 12:37   Yeah. I mean all the functions are there on the website so that you can track it. But, um, I'm very curious to see how this goes because their new website that they just rolled out allows you to track projects throughout the year so you can go in and set a goal. And they started to do this on the last version after, I think last year. But you can start tracking goals throughout the year and you can set them, you can add your word counts to them, you can set deadlines and it will show you, you know, how you're progressing towards your deadline throughout the calendar year. Rekka: 13:09   So I wonder if camp NaNoWriMo is actually going to fade as a result of that or maybe be combined into one other, I mean, this is me just speculating. Kaelyn: 13:17   Yeah. Rekka: 13:18   I mean by keeping, you know, keep your eyes peeled because I think there will probably be some changes to the, the events throughout the year. But as of this moment, you have three NaNoWriMo events, two camps and one big national. You know, um, everyone has a project that they've been keeping in their back pocket for this. Some people start to plan and outline ahead of it so that they're ready to go. People are telling their friends and family, they do not exist in November, um, that they will, uh, you know, come downstairs for the Turkey dinner at 2:00 PM on, on Thanksgiving day and then they will go back to upstairs to the room. Kaelyn: 13:55   I retreat to my cave or my attic. Rekka: 13:57   And so, um, so yeah, so November really if you want to participate and feel the full blast of the furnace, that is the NaNoWriMo experience. Um, I definitely recommend participating in November and find a local writing group because, uh, showing up in person really does make a difference for your productivity. I used to not go to the events because like I said, I'd have to drive an hour or more to get to the event. The event was two or three hours, I think it was two. And then, um, I would drive an hour or more to get home and I was like, well, in those six hours I could be writing more words, except I wouldn't because life would get in the way. So, um, so it really does help to just go and it's also, there is nothing that compares with the feeling of writing in a room where everyone is writing and, um, there's just like this buzz of everybody focused on the same task, that really is incredible. Rekka: 14:47   Um, I'm sure it's the, the theory behind the open working space, a bullpen environment. Kaelyn: 14:55   Oh not that. Rekka: 14:55   But let's, let's not, don't get me wrong, I'm not encouraging that. But um, if everyone is silently writing, then yes, maybe that works. Um, one thing I will mention is that for people who have to write in nontraditional ways for health reasons or, or other productivity reasons, um, it's not going to be a friendly environment. If you are a dictation writer, you know, and it's not going to be a friendly environment. Um, if you need, you know, audio output from your computer as you work, um, or you know, that sort of thing. Um, hopefully all your writings, I know I always try to make them as accessible as possible. Um, I've stopped going to cafes where you had to go up a little staircase to a really cute little loft because it means that people who have, you know, um, crutches or wheelchairs can't attend and stuff. So, um, hopefully all the municipal liaisons around your area take the same efforts to make sure that everyone can come. Kaelyn: 15:51   What typically is the goal at the end of NaNoWriMo when you have done all of this, what quote unquote should you walk away with? Rekka: 16:00   Uh, so the thought is that you can write a book in a month. I mean, a novel in a month. That's national novel writing, not national, write a bunch month. It's national novel writing month. So the goal is to complete a novel in a month, start to finish. In theory, you would not have a draft that you've already begun. Um, and in theory you would write the end on November 30th. Kaelyn: 16:27   Okay. Rekka: 16:28   The metric they use is word count. So the goal of the month to quote unquote, when NaNoWriMo, um, you would have 50,000 words at the end of the month, the goal of 50,000 words is attainable, if you write 1,667 words per day. Kaelyn: 16:50   Okay. Rekka: 16:50   So that will get you to 50,000 in 30 days. So there is a pace that's set by that and there are bar charts and um, estimators that will tell you like at this pace you'll finish on kind of thing. Kaelyn: 17:08   Yeah. Rekka: 17:09   You can sort of see how you're doing, see if you're falling behind, all that kind of stuff. And the number that they came up with is based on literary, uh, great American literary novels, Grapes of Wrath, and Of Mice and Men, so on and so forth. Um, so if you've ever been handed one of those books in a classroom or picked it up in the library and read it for summer reading, because that's typically where all these novels exist in your life, is in some sort of educational format. Um, you know that these are not the same size as the trade paperbacks you pick up at the store. Kaelyn: 17:44   Yes. Rekka: 17:45   And I think that's an important thing to note is that if you follow the letter of the, you know, goal for NaNoWriMo, you are probably not going to end up with what most people would consider a full size book. Kaelyn: 17:59   You are going to end up 10,000 words short of what my publishing company accepts for novels. Rekka: 18:06   For genre fiction. Kaelyn: 18:08   Yes. So yeah, so 50,000 words is 10,000 words shy of the 60,000 minimum. That a lot, not just Parvus of us but a lot of publishing - Rekka: 18:16   That's pretty standard. Rekka: 18:17   Um, yeah, it's about 200 pages provided that the story is done. When you have your 50,000 words, you are going to have to trunk it or expand it if you want to submit it. Kaelyn: 18:31   With something like NaNoWriMo, um, one of the things I would imagine can be very stressful for people participating in it is, is a lot of pressure and it's, some people don't write well under a deadline, right? Rekka: 18:47   Some people Excel at it. And I think those are the people who tend to love NaNoWriMo and love what it can do for their productivity. Kaelyn: 18:54   Some people, I would imagine this would be an incredibly stressful. Rekka: 18:58   Oh yeah. Kaelyn: 18:58   Thing for them that is not necessarily going to produce the best possible version of what they want to write. Rekka: 19:05   1,667 words a day takes discipline, but it also takes rearranging your schedule. Kaelyn: 19:12   Yes. Rekka: 19:12   For some people, um, it's not just, Oh, I will sit down and write those words with this copious amount of free time I have. Kaelyn: 19:19   There's unseen hours that go into this, of thinking about what you're going to write. A lot of people don't just sit down and magically have these words pour out of them. Rekka: 19:28   So if you don't have the time in your life to think about what you're going to write in your next writing session, chances are part of your writing session is going to be given over to switching from your, like Bruce Wayne mode into your Batman mode. Kaelyn: 19:40   Mmmhmm. Rekka: 19:41   And so that's not necessarily going to be something that you can maintain after November. So that's another criticism I've heard is like, people wear themselves out to get these 50,000 words and then that's it. And they write once a year for 30 days in extreme dash and then they don't write for the rest of the year, which is not a fantastic way to strengthen your skills as a writer. Like writing every day is not something that everyone can do 100%. It's exhausting and just like working out the rest of the process. Kaelyn: 20:21   Your time, your schedule. Rekka: 20:21   You need to take a break so you can come back fresh and um, and write, well if you write every day, every day, every day, and that's all your spare time, then you become a husk of human being in a way. And you know, you're writing probably suffers because you don't have any inspiration in your life. You just have output and you need time for input as well. Kaelyn: 20:41   Right. Rekka: 20:43   So writing under extreme deadline means that you don't have time to take that rest between, um, you know, writing sessions if you need to. Uh, it does mean that you have an expectation of finishing something and maybe that kind of drains the joy out of just being present in the moment of the words you're writing. Now, if you are focused on your word count and say you start off great, like day one, day two, maybe you hit your quotas, no problem. Maybe you're ahead of them. And then day three, you know, you have dinner with family so you're not even home when you would normally be writing. And then day four you're like, okay, well I've just got to make up double quota and I, it wasn't so bad this first two days, so I'll just make up. Rekka: 21:28   And then day four, something else happens. And then day five, maybe it's a Monday and you're back at work and you were hoping that you might, might be able to hit your regular quota only now you've got like a couple of days on top of that so you can start to really pile up and add to the anxiety of things. Honestly, the best time I ever had writing for NaNoWriMo was, um, when I was 100% ahead of my quota every day. And it's just not a situation that happens for 100% of the people and there's no way to control it, really. The reason that I was ahead, that particular NaNoWriMo was because I was the, became that year the municipal liaison for my NaNoWriMo region because now that it's so big, they break it up into regions and then they have local people who lead in person write-ins wrangle the people in that area, encourage them, send out messages to them to, you know, inspire them, remind them of events and all this. Rekka: 22:27   So when I was municipal liaison for the first year, it was also the first year that I attended every single writing and I was encouraging people online and I really thought that your was going to actually make it harder for me to hit my goals because I thought that I'm writing the newsletters to the people and I'm driving to the write ins was going to take away from the time I would otherwise be writing. But instead what it did was like, give me a motivated, like, like super powered focus. And so when I got there, I was leading writing sprints, which are timed sessions, kind of like Pomodoro method except you know, it can be a little bit of friendly competition. You just write, you know, fingers ablaze or whatever keyboard, whatever your method of writing is. Um, you just do that for whatever the time are set for you. Rekka: 23:24   Usually 20 to 30 minutes seems to be pretty comfortable for people. And then like, you know, when you get to the end of your right and sometimes you have like spare change minutes, so you'd do like five minutes or 15 minutes or whatever you can fit in. And then at the end everybody calls out, you know, how many words they wrote. And um, you know, that Pomodoro technique for some people works really, really well. And then you also get built in breaks to like stretch your fingers, get up as opposed to staring at the keyboard and saying, I'm writing for three hours, which is a lot. Kaelyn: 23:55   It is, well doing anything for three hours, is uh. Rekka: 23:58   Yeah, it's tough. I mean there's a reason that, you know, school classes in high school were like, what, 40 minutes for a class because that was about all you, the teacher was going to get out of you before you needed to get up and walk around to your next class, go to lockers. Kaelyn: 24:11   Actually in high school we had block scheduling. So our classes were an hour and 40 minutes each and it was brutal. So yeah, I mean even doing something for like two hours nonstop without a break that can, that's very mentally fatiguing. Rekka: 24:27   Yes, yes. So that's the, the idea is that the um, you know, the write-ins give you not just the community but also like some structure and it really worked for me and I live in a very strange, narrow is North, South, you know, column of a region where it's, you can't just drive directly across one corner to the other because of Connecticut roads. You know, you have to take a highway in the wrong direction for a while and, and make the next one and, and, and make a 90 degree turn. And I really thought that all this commuting was going to cut into my writing time. But what I found was that having set scheduled writing time was really, really helpful and kept me motivated. And then when I did have 10 or 20 minutes throughout the rest of the day, even if I wasn't at a write in, I was already in the mode of writing for this because I was thinking about it daily as opposed to just on the weekends. Rekka: 25:20   So that's another warning is don't save all your quota and just do it on the weekends because that's a lot of words to make up for. That's a lot of pressure and it's a lot of pressure. And then if your weekend goes a little bit awry, like mine always do, you know- Kaelyn: 25:31   The candle thing goes wonky, that'll do ya. Rekka: 25:33   You end up out running errands for three hours in the middle of the day when you were supposed to be writing. So, um, that's tough. But for some people it's um, also tough to just get that time away from their family. Kaelyn: 25:47   How polished is what you're writing during this going to be, because my, I'm kind of looking at this thinking like, alright, you've written 50,000 words. These are probably not the best 50,000 words you're ever going to write. They're going to probably need some revisions, some work, some addition. Rekka: 26:05   That's kind of where I think a lot of folks split on their opinion of NaNoWriMo. Some folks love NaNoWriMo because it helps them get the words on the page. Some folks hate, loath, detestsNaNoWriMo because of the words that end up on the page and the quality thereof. Kaelyn: 26:30   Well, yeah, and that probably has a lot to do with just how you work. Is it a matter of, it doesn't have to be pretty, I just need to get it done Rekka: 26:38   Right. Kaelyn: 26:38   Because this is how I'm going to make myself get it done. New Speaker:  26:41   Yes. So when NaNoWriMo on the word count, because the idea is to prove to you that you can write that many words if you sit down everyday and do it, um, or if you budget out how you're going to do it through the month. Um, if you hit 1,667 words per day and you get to the 50,000, at the end of the month, the quality is entirely dependent on you. It's probably safe to say that the average NaNoWriMo 50,000 word draft is uh, one probably not done. You know, that person probably didn't get to the end of the story. Um, some of this is pacing yourself in terms of like how much to write proceed and how much to write per chapter. A lot of people do a discovery writing, so they just kind of sit down and they might have a character in mind or general plot arc, but they don't have a, a, an outline or a writing plan. Kaelyn: 27:42   So in this case then what their goal is is I have a character, I have an idea of a story. Let me see where this goes. I'm going to sit down and write about 1700 words a day and see how this. Rekka: 27:56   See how this ends up, right. Maybe freewriting is a, is a good term. I mean, most creative drafting is probably free writing once you get into it. It's just a matter of like, do you have a goal in mind to like, am I writing a scene where the character has to get to the bus stop? Because if they don't make this bus, they're not going to see their mother before she passes. Sorry everyone, that was pretty downer, but you know those kinds of tense moments or is this like my character works at a coffee shop and so I'm going to describe her day and you know, and all of those things are valid for your first draft. I suspect that the reason that those people who do not care for NaNoWriMo, I don't even know what to suspect. I can confirm that the reason that people don't like NaNoWriMo when they feel that way and when they feel strongly about it is because in December there are half a million people who have some form of a first draft of something that they now want to share. Kaelyn: 29:02   Yep. Rekka: 29:03   Some of these people choose to go ahead and self publish it right there. Okay, I do not recommend this. Kaelyn: 29:09   No. I would say go back and listen to all of our submissions, September episodes where we talk about is this ready to show to other people? Rekka: 29:18   Not only do people sometimes self-publish these books Kaelyn: 29:22   So wait, real quick, people actually sit down, write the 50,000 words through this, then take that in its exact form. Rekka: 29:31   Yup. Kaelyn: 29:32   And self-publish it. Rekka: 29:35   Yup. I think people are starting to get a little bit better about that now. Um, but it was definitely, and a NaNoWriMo has some sponsors and some of them are the companies through which you can self publish. I think create space before Amazon eight create space. Um, used to have a link on the winner's page, like com upload your draft, which is fine if you want to see it and hold it and read it and go over it again. But please don't list it for sale at this point. Kaelyn: 30:03   Well, who, um who is participating in NaNoWriMo? Because I kind of always understood it to be people very active in writing communities and um, I would think people who are very active in writing communities would know that this first thing that you've done is not ready to be seen by anyone. Rekka: 30:26   Right. So that is part of it. Um, yeah, we have, we have writers who are writers the rest of the year who participate in NaNoWriMo just because they know all their friends are working on it and you hear a lot, even through the rest of the year, like, Oh, I'm saving that for November, you know, like that's a, that's a novel I want to start in November, so I want to finish this other stuff first. Kaelyn: 30:49   Yeah. Rekka: 30:50   So that definitely is true. There are definitely people who are professionally or amateur and I don't mean amateur in the sense of not very good, but I mean amateur in the sense of does it for the love of it. Kaelyn: 31:01   Yeah. The actual literal definition of amateur. Rekka: 31:05   There are people who know what it is to write a book and they know what a book looks like when it's ready to be seen by other people. And they know about the process of editing and revising. There are also people who hear about NaNoWriMo on Facebook or whatever and they think, Oh, that's cute. I've always wanted to write a book. And it's, I think, and I do not mean to disparage any group of people, Kaelyn: 31:28   No, of course not. Rekka: 31:28   But I think it's that group of the, I've always wanted to write a book, people, um - Kaelyn: 31:34   Who are kind of coming into this without exposure to, well, pretty much anything that this podcast is about. The writing and publishing. Yeah. Rekka: 31:42   Right. So they may be enthusiastic readers, um, of any genre. Um, people participate in NaNoWriMo for any genre as well. Um, some people write poetry, some people write blog posts for their website and just use the word count, you know, to measure how they're doing. Um, if you wanna call that a work of, you know, collected articles, you can, you know, NaNoWriMo has gotten a little bit fuzzy. And I don't mean this in a negative way, but they have, they really started originally where you're writing a novel and it's fiction and it may or may not have, You know, speculative elements or fantasy, but generally it is a plot that you come up with, with characters that you come up with. Now there are people who write biographies and, and whatever. And the, the genres that you could choose from the dropdown menu on their website when you're setting up your project to track, um, has gotten a lot longer than it needs to be. Rekka: 32:47   It used to be like five or six things. Um, now, you know, screenplay is one of them where, you know, that's a very different kind of writing experience from writing a novel. And also it used to be separated out into its own event called script frenzy, which they no longer have. They've just absorbed scripts and other comic books and, and that sort of thing into their main events. Um, and they hold three a year. Kaelyn: 33:12   Okay. Rekka: 33:13   Um, so not only are there people who are self publishing these books, um, just releasing them into the wild and sticking - Kaelyn: 33:21   Go books! Be free! Rekka: 33:23   But no, not free. People are charging for their NaNoWriMo draft one. So I think that contributes to the very negative opinions some people have of the um, the community event because they see a plethora of unedited, unrevised unproofed un-beta, you know, Kaelyn: 33:46   Checked, anything. Rekka: 33:46   Um, just, it doesn't necessarily even have a illustration on the cover. It might just have the title, the title. Um, if you've ever seen like the, um, covers where there's like a couple of blocks of, of colors and then the, uh, um, the, the title across it in times new Roman or whatever. Um, so there are, there are usually a flood of those and people who work very hard to try and lift the, the, uh, reputation of self-publishing by putting in the effort are often very frustrated by this wave public - Kaelyn: 34:26   Well that's understandable, you know you never want to see, you know especially something that's a community that's trying to establish and build its reputation more. And then you get this, a flurry of people coming in and going, See I did the same thing you did and you're going, no, you didn't. Rekka: 34:39   Yeah. And I think maybe that's one of the criticisms or the lead, the root of the criticism is somebody who participates in NaNoWriMo throws mud against a wall in terms of the words that they put on the page. They hit the quota and then they say, I've written a book too. Kaelyn: 34:57   Yeah. Rekka: 34:57   When you know that's the tip of the iceberg. That's the, that's the outside impression of what it takes to write a book. It's the revisions and the editing and you know, going through the process of producing the book that is the unseen 90% of the iceberg. And you know - Kaelyn: 35:18   You know, because it's, you know, and as you said, not to disparage anyone in what they're doing, but someone who does NaNoWriMo writes the 50,000 words and says, okay, I'm done, is not doing the same thing as someone who says, okay, I've done NaNoWriMo. I've written a 50,000 words. I'm just getting started. Rekka: 35:34   Yeah. And so check that off. That's step one. Kaelyn: 35:38   Yeah. Rekka: 35:39   I've got almost a full manuscript that I will then reread on my own, try to improve as best I can, involve some beta readers at the very least a really clean it up and maybe query to an agent, start the, the entire process that is years in the making, not 30 days. So, um, you know, to that point, I think NaNoWriMo caught on a national novel writing month. The organization caught on that this was a negative aspect in a lot of people's minds about the event. So almost immediately after you finished NaNoWriMo, you are invited to participate in what they call the Now What Months. Kaelyn: 36:24   Great. Rekka: 36:24   And no, but it's a good thing. Kaelyn: 36:26   It's a very good thing. Rekka: 36:27   And there are plenty of editors and writers out there who have courses and guides for editing what you've written in your NaNoWriMo month and they're out there. They're free on people's blogs. Some people have, um, paid content and webinars and all this kind of stuff. Like people realize that there's a need for, for guidance of a new writer and what to do with these words that they've written. How to know if they're good, how to know if they can be salvaged or if they need to be tossed and just, you know, considered acute experiment or something like that. Um, so the now what months are they begin advertising them in December, but they don't really kick off until the new year, which is a good thing because it gives people to take the space to rest from the, um, madcap dash that they just participated in. Kaelyn: 37:20   Well and also, December in a chaotic month for a lot of people, for a lot of reasons. Rekka: 37:24   And your family is already mad at you for skipping out on Thanksgiving. Kaelyn: 37:26   You already went and sat and wrote in the middle of Thanksgiving. Rekka: 37:29   So, or you know, ignored your, your aunt and uncle who you only see this time of year to write this thing. So December, December is your month off, which is a good thing, I think in the process of writing a book. It's good to step away from it after you've finished the draft so you can come back to it with fresh eyes and then begin the process of editing and revising it. But that's not NaNoWriMo itself. It's just what you should do with your book when you're done with NaNoWriMo, whether you realize it or not. So if you create this drivel of a draft and it's 50,000 words that you should probably set on fire, why, why do people do NaNoWriMo is the question that usually comes up next like, okay, so you don't want to publish what you did. Why do it? Kaelyn: 38:15   Well, I mean I would just, you know, from my having never participated in this side of things, think of that it is getting you to sit down and just do the thing. Rekka: 38:28   And I think that's the intent is just to prove to people that you can write a thing. Kaelyn: 38:32   It's to prove to yourself even. Rekka: 38:33   Yes. I'm sorry. Like for people use to prove to themselves that they can write a thing. Kaelyn: 38:38   Um, there is, you know, we, we talked about earlier, there is this mentality of like if everyone is doing it, it's a motivating factor. It helps you kind of stay on track, stay involved, feel like you're not drifting alone out there doing this. And it's um, it's a big community building event as well. Rekka: 39:04   Yeah. As we listed like you can meet people, you can hang out with people you don't normally get to see, at least not this much and you can um, just participate in this. Um, you know that same thing I was talking about earlier with everyone focusing in one room, everyone focusing on the internet is also pretty thrilling. Kaelyn: 39:22   But you even, I think you kind of hit the nail on the head earlier. You called it like if this is like a holiday, people plan for this, they say like, I have a project that I'm saving for November and I think having a specific time where I'm going to do this at this time, one gives you a deadline to prepare for. Rekka: 39:42   Right. Kaelyn: 39:42   And I don't mean the deadline at the end of the month, I mean the deadline or the beginning of the month where it's like, okay, I kind of need to have this stuff figured out before I dive into this. I need to have plans setups so that I can dive into this. I need to have a schedule in place. And I think even just having that motivating factor is very important for getting started. Rekka: 40:06   You know, I talk about being a municipal liason on and having write-ins throughout the month, but we start earlier than that. Um, we have a, it, it hasn't even happened yet. So, um, you know, if you're listening to this on the 22nd, you're going, Oh, I've never heard of this, or I have heard of this, but I've never dared to enter. But I think this year's, I really wish I could, but it's October 22nd. It's too late. I've got to wait until next year. Kaelyn: 40:28   It's not too late. Rekka: 40:29   It's absolutely not too late. Um, if you don't mind a bit of discovery writing in your drafting process, you can just start on November 1st with, uh, you know, what if question and let everything unfold from there. Um, if you like an outline, it's still not too late as long as you can set aside like a day or two and maybe not even consecutively. Um, that's just my recommendation to write an outline, a quick outline. It doesn't have to be a fully fledged, you know, Rekka-style outline, which is what 500 words. Kaelyn: 41:05   Those are notorious. Rekka: 41:06   Um, so the, um, you know, you, if you can set aside a day to come up with your story plot and then set aside a day, a few days later to revisit it and see how it sounds, if you have any more ideas cause you've been thinking about it for a couple of days. So, um, what we do in my writing, uh, community, my local writing community is, uh, this one hour plot workshop and we're holding it on the 27th. So, you know, the 22nd is not too late to start this. Kaelyn: 41:35   No, definitely not. Rekka: 41:38   Yeah. There's, there's really no time that it's too late to start writing. Even if you come in halfway through a NaNoWriMo event, um, you may not hit the word count without, you know, breaking your brain over it. But, um, you know, creating this habit or participating is never a bad idea. No. But yeah, so we create this, um, or we have this one hour, a plot workshop, which is actually like two or three hours for the setup and chatting about it and answering questions and doing things, following, you know, a person who's leading you through this. But it is based on a book called The Busy Writer's one hour plot that's by Marge McAllister, which is an ebook that you can still find on Amazon. Um, and you know, you just go through and you, you start with the character, you start with one or however many you have and it just basically asks you like, okay, what do they want, what are their obstacles? Rekka: 42:31   Um, and what are three obstacles that they have to go through throughout the plot, you know, assuming a four X structure. And, um, and then at the end of going through that little plot program, you've got a loose, but you've structured, yeah, you've got a structure of a story that you can start writing. So, you know, at 25,000 words through your 50,000, you should be at that second obstacle. You know, things that you can sort of use to pace yourself at the very least and discovery, right, all the rest. Um, they welcome plot plotters as well as pantsers NaNoWriMo. Um, and there's even a book by, um, one of the founders of national novel writing month called no plot, no problem. So you can, you can definitely get started with just the barest idea of the story and um, and succeed from there. And you know, assuming that success is a 50,000 word draft and again, that you will take and develop further. Kaelyn: 43:30   So on my end, um, Parvus typically opens for submissions in the beginning of the year and - Rekka: 43:39   Which may be a mistake. Kaelyn: 43:41   Well, you know, the thing is that we, we usually open for submissions twice a year and we always get a lot more in the beginning of the year because everyone has just finished NaNoWriMo and not every one takes off December. Some people go straight into revising and editing. Rekka: 43:59   Um, and we love those people who revise and edit rather than just wait until January to dump it on your doors. Kaelyn: 44:03   Yes, yes. But, so we talked about this. Now what, here's the thing, your 50,000 word, NaNoWriMo writing project, that's not a book that's not ready to get submitted or sent in as we talked about, you know, that's 10,000 words shy of what a lot of places want for a minimum. Rekka: 44:25   A minimum, yeah. Kaelyn: 44:26   Right off the bat. So is this ready to show to anyone? Here's the thing, probably not. Um - Rekka: 44:33   Be very proud of it. Kaelyn: 44:34   Yeah! Rekka: 44:34   Like, don't, don't think that you should be ashamed of what you've just accomplished and - Kaelyn: 44:38   You absolutely should be proud of it. This is a, this is a feat. You have accomplished a feat. Rekka: 44:44   And you've proven to yourself that you can do this. Hopefully you haven't overtaxed yourself to the point where you feel like you need to collapse until next November to write again. Um, because you know, and that's just one of the criticisms that you get and they get some pretty nasty heated conversations about how if you only write once a year, you're not a writer. Um, those are judgments that we're not passing here, but we do suggest that your writing, um, skill will improve if you do it throughout the year as opposed to waiting once per year. So be proud that you have started. Kaelyn: 45:17   Absolutely be proud of what you've done. Rekka: 45:17   If this is your first, you've done projects, you have started, you know, hopefully you love it, hopefully you discovered your passion. If not, that's also an important thing to learn. If you found who are writing a draft kind of sucks. And I don't like doing this and like, you know what, and just you can just keep being a reader and feel no shame about it. You've discovered something about yourself and your, you know, where it's worth investing your time. So, um, you know, that's also a good thing. You can learn a lot about yourself in NaNoWriMo. You can also create a draft that maybe has a spark of something that you feel could develop into a full manuscript that you can send out on query or submission, but you don't do it right away. So, uh, yeah, 50,000 words too short to submit, at least to genre fiction. Kaelyn: 46:03   Most places aren't even - Rekka: 46:04   And almost definitely a need of some revising and attention. So, you know, you probably needed 1,667 words one day. And so you wrote about some coffee shop scene that doesn't even develop character. Kaelyn: 46:17   Rekka, do you need coffee? Rekka: 46:19   I always need coffee. Kaelyn: 46:20   It's a lot of, there's a lot of coffee shops, scenes here. I feel like you're trying to tell me something. It's fine. Rekka: 46:27   I'm trying to tell you that I always need coffee. Kaelyn: 46:29   It's fine. We'll get you coffee. Rekka: 46:30   For the record, I always want more coffee. Kaelyn: 46:33   So, um, well on that note, maybe we should go get you some more coffee. Rekka: 46:38   Okay, fair. But yeah, just to wrap it up, you know, like what is national novel writing month. It is a fully worthwhile community event that takes place online and in local writing groups. And there's probably a, you know, a region near you that you can, you know, go lump yourself onto and participate this year if you haven't before. If you don't have a region near you, you are absolutely invited to my region as like an expat or something or something like that. Kaelyn: 47:05   [laughs] An expat? Rekka: 47:05   Um, you can come find the region, you know, USA, Connecticut, Fairfield County. Okay. And you are totally welcome to come join and right remotely in my, you know, NaNoWriMo. Kaelyn: 47:17   I mean Rekka is doing it this year. Rekka: 47:19   So you know, if you're like, if you're unsure anm hey if it's your first time and you're inspired by this episode, let us know. We'd, we'd love to hear that. Kaelyn: 47:26   Especially if you end up joining a Rekka's writing community. Rekka: 47:29   Yeah. If I have an influx of people, yeah I will, that would love to know which ones are people who came in from the, from the podcast. You can tweet at us too, all through November. Let us know how you're doing if you were listening to this and inspired this. Kaelyn: 47:43   I think uh, Rekka will certainly be tweeting about this and how she's she's doing. Rekka: 47:47   Oh, so I should just touch on this real quick. Um, there is a category of NaNoWriMo participant called the nano rebel. Kaelyn: 47:52   Oh boy. Rekka: 47:53   And that's kind of what I technically am because this year I am trying to work on a manuscript that I already started earlier this year. Kaelyn: 48:02   [gasps] Rekka: 48:03   So I have 30,000 words of a novel, but I am going to write 50,000 more okay. Through the month. Um, heck if I can finish my draft in the month. So here's, here's my, my personal experience that month that I told you that was my first as a municipal liaison and I had no trouble staying ahead of my quota. And I, I didn't even say this, but I finished early. I finished six days early with 85,000 words of a. Kaelyn: 48:32   For those of you listening who haven't figured this out already Rekka's, not a person in the strictest sense of the word. We're pretty sure - Rekka: 48:42   I might just be a floating ball of plasma. Kaelyn: 48:45   We're pretty sure she's not carbon based. Rekka: 48:47   So, um, yeah, so I finished that draft 25 days, you know, 85,000 words, Chi-ching, aren't I awesome. I also rewrote that entire thing like four times and that became Salvage. Kaelyn: 48:59   Yup. Rekka: 48:59   So, um, so your over achievement in NaNoWriMo does not instantly, you know, spell success for your story. You, you, even if you are a writer all year round, and if even if you're a writer all year round, you probably will end up revising this thing a heck of a lot before you want to show it to anybody. So, yes, um Salvage was my 2016 NaNoWriMo project. It was 85,000 words after 25 days. And then it was revised several whopping times that probably took years off my life and came in at 163,000 words when it was done. So neither of those were 50,000 and a as complete stories. And I'd started with outlines and I, um, you know, saved this project for that month kind of thing. Great. Well I think that's really fantastic thing to do. So it's all about the community. Honestly. That's my exact part of NaNoWriMo and my use of it has changed since 2016 I write year round now trying to create new drafts of things. Rekka: 50:10   And very frequently I find that my scheduling just doesn't let me set aside like one specific month as determined by other people. Um, but I'm still the municipal liaison. I still love it. I still love going and working on whatever I'm working on with people doing, you know, 12 write-ins a month instead of the usual two that my, my community does. So it's so much fun. If you don't hinge your future writing career success upon your ability to write a Submittable draft in one month, then it's just hanging out with a bunch of people who love writing just as much as you do. And I definitely recommend it. Yeah. So, um, you know, I, I've learned a lot this episode. Um, hopefully you did too. And if you're, you know, if you're going to take part of, let us know, we'd be very interested to uh, to follow and cheer you on. Kaelyn: 50:57   Yeah. Cheer you on and see what, see what you come up with. Rekka: 51:00   And fold you into my community. Kaelyn: 51:02   Yes. Rekka: 51:02   Yeah. So this has been another episode of We Make Books, a show about writing, publishing and everything in between. You can find us on Twitter at WMB cast. We are also on Instagram at WMB cast. You can find our old episodes@wmbcast.com and if you have a buck or two to chip in to help us manage this podcast and uh thank us for our time. If you, especially if you find this, uh, as a very valuable resource, please come to patreon.com/WMB cast. And if you do not have financial support that you can grant us, you can still help us out a lot by sharing episodes that you enjoy with a friend who would also enjoy them. And, um, the easiest thing is just retweet our episodes when you see them pop up on Twitter. Kaelyn: 51:46   And, uh, also leave us a rating and review. Rekka: 51:48   Oh yes, yes. Probably the most important part. Kaelyn: 51:51   That's the most important. Rekka: 51:52   Which it always feels like the biggest ask of people. Like, could you please go say a nice thing. Kaelyn: 51:57   It doesn't have to be long. Rekka: 51:58   Just say what you like, you know, say like Kaelyn's voice. Kaelyn: 52:02   God, I hate my voice. Rekka: 52:03   Say you also like coffee. Say you're going to join a NaNoWriMo with us this year. So yeah. Um, ratings and reviews on iTunes. Help Apple. Find other listeners for our podcast, which is what we want. We want to talk to everybody. Kaelyn: 52:14   Everyone. Rekka: 52:15   Because we're extroverts somehow. Kaelyn: 52:17   Eh. Rekka: 52:18   All right, everybody, we'll talk to you in two weeks.    0

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! It’s Week Two of Submissions September and we are talking about query letters!  What are they? What purpose do they serve?  Why are they so freaking hard to write??  Your query letter is an incredibly important part of your submission and Rekka and Kaelyn take a dive into what makes a good QL, so dos and don’ts, and some insight into Rekka’s work on her own query letter. If you missed last week’s episode, this month Submissions September on the We Make Books Podcast!  We’re up to seven (7!) episodes this month all about the process of submitting your novel.  We have a lot of awesome discussions lined up and even some special guests.  Here’s what will be coming your way for the  month: Week 1 (9/3/2019): Is This Ready For Other People to See?- Submitting Your Manuscript Week 2 (9/10/2019): My Entire Novel in Three Hundred Words - The Dreaded Query Letter Week 3 (9/17/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 1: An Interview with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald               (9/18/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 2: Interviews with Agented Authors               (9/19/2019): Agents of Literature Part 3: Interviews with Agented Authors Week 4 (9/24/2019):What is Going On Over There? - The Other Side of the Submissions Process Week 5 (9/30/2019): Now I’m Even More Confused – Submissions September Q&A Episode We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and has anyone else watched “Carnival Row” yet? Because we have some Thoughts and need someone to talk to about them. We hope you enjoy We Make Books!   Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast       Kaelyn:00:00   Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the, We Make Books Podcast, a show about writing, publishing and everything in between. Rekka:00:06   I'm Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn:00:09   And I'm Kaelyn. I am the acquisitions editor for purpose press. And this is week two of Submissions September. Rekka:00:15   It's a big month for us. Kaelyn:00:17   It's a busy month for us. Rekka:00:18   Well it was busy month was last month when you were editing all these episodes together. Kaelyn:00:21   Yeah, yeah, that's true. We're going to have a break then. But uh, yeah. So this week we're talking about query letters. Um, what are they, what are their purpose? Rekka:00:31   Why are they so scary? Kaelyn:00:32   Why are they so hard to write? Rekka:00:35   Um, and there's a little bonus in there. Kaelyn:00:37   Oh yes. And ah, we get to hear uh, we get to hear something special from Rekka with her own experience with this. So, you know, make sure you get all the way to the end of the episode for that. Um, this was, you know, when we were kind of sitting down mapping out, okay, um, what we're gonna do for this. Um, I very adamantly wanted to do an episode that was just about query letters because I think they're a frequently, I won't say overlooked but under emphasized tool. Rekka:01:05   Until it's too late. Kaelyn:01:06   Exactly. Rekka:01:07   So suddenly you're panicking about your query letter because you have to include one and what goes in it and how good does it have to be. And, um, you, should I write it from the first person perspective of my main character or short - Kaelyn:01:22   Wait, wait, spoiler alert. Don't do that. Rekka:01:24   Or should I write it in pig Latin or should I, you know, write it backward? Like should I write it as a poem so that it stands out in the inbox? Kaelyn:01:35   I got one of those. Rekka:01:36   I believe you. Yeah. Okay. Kaelyn:01:38   Um, so yeah, we go over, you know, some of the, like the origin story, if you will, of these, the purpose of them and um, what, what yours should have and what you should be planning for and what to do with it. So, um, I think it's a very important thing to take, the appropriate amount of time to work on. So we definitely, you know, we wanted to talk about that and um, oh boy did we [laughs] so, um, that's the episode. Uh, again, you know we're, this is episode two of it's looking to be five and for Submissions September, we're rolling right through them. Rekka:02:13   Yup. Kaelyn:02:14   So we'll be back next week. Rekka:02:16   You're getting one a week through September and then we're going to back off again. Kaelyn:02:19   Then we're going to take a nap for a while. Rekka:02:22   Easily, easily a month. Kaelyn:02:23   And um, you know, maybe around December we'll, we'll poke our heads up out of the sand again. Um, so anyway, uh, enjoy the episode everyone and we'll catch you next week Rekka:02:31   Yeah, enjoy the episode Speaker 2:       02:35   [music] Speaker 3:       02:40   [music] Rekka:02:49   Are you going to be able to have a full conversation? Are you going to just sort of slip into a nap? Kaelyn:02:54   Yeah, no, it's a barbecue coma, specifically mac and cheese coma. That was, you know - Rekka:03:00   Free Mac and cheese coma. Kaelyn:03:01   That's fine. I really want to go look at the order ticket and see like what was on their first verse they actually gave us because I'm convinced we walked away with at least part of someone else's meal. Rekka:03:13   I mean, part of the meal we ordered that they canceled that, then we - Kaelyn:03:16   Yeah, no, I mean they definitely handed it, handed us all of it. It's not like we picked up someone else's stuff and walked away with it. Rekka:03:23   No. And I think the way the bags were spread out, some, like some of all of our order wasn't across two different bags. Kaelyn:03:30   Who knows. Yeah, we're recording already? Rekka:03:33   Yeah, of course. Kaelyn:03:33   Yeah, of course we are. Hey everyone episode or, it's sorry, Submissions September week two. Rekka:03:41   Is it? Kaelyn:03:41   Yeah. Rekka:03:42   So Gosh, time is funny that way. Kaelyn:03:45   Yeah. No, week two. Rekka:03:46   The problem is I was focused on the fact that this was episode 13. So to me, yeah. Kaelyn:03:52   No, those numbers, they're tricky. Rekka:03:53   13 doesn't match because week two is the 10th. I'm like, this doesn't make any sense. Kaelyn:03:58   And you know, episode two, but week thirteen, you know, it's, it's tricky. Uh, so - Rekka:04:05   Week two, episode 13, you just said it backwards. Now I am confused. Kaelyn:04:09   See I was, I was seeing if you'd catch that there. That was good. Good. Looking at Rekka. Rekka:04:14   I pay attention. Kaelyn:04:16   Uh, so what are we talking about today? Rekka:04:18   Query letters. Kaelyn:04:21   Query letters, these - Rekka:04:22   Do it! Kaelyn:04:22   The dreaded query letter. Rekka:04:24   I don't know why they're so dreaded. Kaelyn:04:25   They're hard. Rekka:04:26   But they're the last thing you have to do before you can send it to somebody. Kaelyn:04:29   But they're the last thing you have to do before you can send it to somebody. Rekka:04:32   And if you get it wrong, they'll laugh at you. Kaelyn:04:35   It's, query letters are hard. Um, it's, you're summarizing your entire book plus a little bit about yourself in about 400 words. That's hard. Rekka:04:49   Four hundred sounds a little long. Kaelyn:04:50   Yeah. Probably 300, one page, you know, whatever you can get on that and maybe use a really small font. So, yeah, today we're talking about query letters, which is the next vital component of getting your submission ready. Rekka:05:05   By the way, don't use a really small font. Kaelyn:05:07   Don't use a really small font. Rekka:05:08   That was not good advice because - Kaelyn:05:09   That was not an endorsement to that. Um, yeah. So we're talking about query letters today and what they are, what they're used for, why you need one. Yeah. Um, so Rekka I mean, you've, you've written them. Rekka:05:24   I have um mostly, I have written, uh, one that was submitted, which became Flotsam. Kaelyn:05:31   Yes. Rekka:05:32   And there were nine different versions of the Flotsam query letter of which I chose one. Kaelyn:05:36   And you don't understand why this is so scary to people? Rekka:05:40   What do you mean? You think I wrote nine cause I was nervous? Kaelyn:05:43   No, but because it's hard because you wrote nine different. Rekka:05:46   Yeah, no, no. I approached them in different ways. Like this one was character forward. This one was fine and that's great. Yeah. It was just like when I wrote them, I was not planning to submit. We've talked the past about how Flotsam was supposed to be self published. So at this point I was doing this for the practice of writing a query letter so that someday I would be able to write good marketing copy. Kaelyn:06:08   Okay. Rekka:06:08   And if you think about it in that terms, that's kind of what it is. Well, it's like you're marketing it to a very specific audience. Kaelyn:06:14   I always joke that like the turnabout here is for the editors when they have to do cover copies. Rekka:06:19   Yes. And that's where we get in our revenge. Kaelyn:06:22   Yeah. That's, that's the revenge Rekka:06:24   Karma. All right. You sell it, you're so good at this. Kaelyn:06:27   Fine. You think, can you do it? Um, yeah. So query letters, uh, let's talk about why you need one and what they're used for. Rekka:06:36   You need one because they're telling you to, but like more specifically, you need to stand out in inbox. Kaelyn:06:45   So even going back a step farther than that, um, the purpose of a query letter as the name implies is you're asking a question. That question is, I either have written or I am planning to write this thing. Are you interested in it? It's a little misleading because what it's actually saying is here is why you should be interested in this. You are selling yourself and your book there. Um, originally, and I can't remember we talked about on this or on hybrid author, um, but when originally part of the purpose of query letters was you'd send them to agents in publishing houses because you couldn't send a whole manuscript. Rekka:07:28   Right. Kaelyn:07:29   Because you used to have to physically mail these things. Rekka:07:31   Yes. Kaelyn:07:32   Way Back in the dark ages. Rekka:07:33   Chonky books. Kaelyn:07:34   Yes. And, um, even more than that, you know, like if you've ever seen like typewritten pages, you don't get as many of them on there as you do using a word processor right today. So, um, that you used to send these letters saying like, Hey, I wrote this book, are you interested in it? And you'd start a correspondence based on that if you got a reply back, yes, I'm interested. Then you sent the manuscript along, um, in this day and age where digital files are uploaded really fast, really fast, and they're small little things that you can keep a whole database on and peruse at your leisure. Um, now they're kind of introductory and I don't want to say sales pitchy, but they are, Rekka:08:18   They kind of, yeah. And, and what I was saying about like trying to stand out from the inbox kind of is what it is because these days, frequently someone opens a window for querying and income the flood. And so you get hundreds of letters from authors and if it was just a, an author's name in the from field subject line query and then a file attachment, it would get pretty like I would, I mean I would personally probably quit if I didn't even have that sort of like light touch before I had to get into the manuscript. Kaelyn:08:58   Yeah. And actually that's a, that's a good point is that you query agents still. That's still the verb. Even though um really, you're, you are submitting a manuscript as well, but it's still called querying an agent. Rekka:09:09   And this is one of those things like hang up the phone. So nobody's phone hangs on the wall and so charming holdover and we aren't getting acquainted, Kaelyn:09:16   Aren't we adorable? Rekka:09:17   Yes. Kaelyn:09:17   Um, so yeah, that's, you know, that's why you write a query letter. Now it's, we're going to get into what should be in it, but it is sort of your sales pitch for your book. It is not, don't think of it as are you interested in it? Think of it as here's why you should be interested in this. Rekka:09:36   Right. Kaelyn:09:37   So why are these so freaking hard to write? Rekka:09:39   Because imposter syndrome, because nerves, because you're writing to someone you don't know well and you are putting this thing that you've put so much blood, sweat and effort into and you have one shot because you can't query the same manuscript twice. Kaelyn:09:57   It's very hard because you're trying to do two things at once. One is some tell, I won't say summarize because you should not be summarizing your book in this. Rekka:10:06   Right. Kaelyn:10:07   But you should be talking about your story. Rekka:10:09   Yeah. Kaelyn:10:10   Then you should also be talking about what the great selling points of this story are and that especially is very hard to do. Rekka:10:18   For most authors that's not anything that they've given a lot of consideration to. They've just been working on their story and doing the work, doing the work, writing it, revising it, writing it, revising it, and then when it comes time to actually tell people about it, you're unprepared completely. Even though you wrote the thing maybe more than once. Kaelyn:10:36   Yeah. And actually, in the previous episodes, we had talked a lot about your elevator pitch and uh, refining it and perfecting it in the debut authors episode. And this kind of goes along with it. Um, now obviously this will be taking place before you, you work on your elevator pitch for the book. Um, but you have to kind of quickly and effectively tell the reader about your book in a way that is going to intrigue them. And that is very hard to do. Um, you can go online and there are some really good resources and articles and ideas for how to do this in your query letters. Some major do's and don'ts. Um, we'll get into some of those once we break down. But, um, this is one instance where I'm like, hey, go online and read about things because even there are some great articles out there that will just kind of give you definitions and structure and some etiquette and what it should and should not say. Rekka:11:35   Etiquette is very helpful because it gives you the framework around, like it takes away the like, okay, so do I come off like this or should I be saying their first name? Or should I, you know, like, how do I even start this? Because this isn't like necessarily relationship where you will ever call them, you know, Mr their last name or - Kaelyn:11:59   You know, I get responses with that sometimes. It always makes me a little like, oh, I didn't know my mom was reading these [laughs]. Rekka:12:06   And it, and it is, but it's a strange, like it's a formal thing. Like you can't be too polite. Some people might say. Kaelyn:12:13   Well, and I will say one in doubt, default to maybe not overly polite, but definitely professional. Rekka:12:17   Right. And maybe there are some authors that don't even know what the difference between polite and professional is. Kaelyn:12:24   Yeah. And, you know, worst case scenario, you're overly polite and that's not gonna, that's not gonna make anyone think badly of you. Rekka:12:32   Just might chuckle a little. Kaelyn:12:34   Yes. But they're, they're certainly not going to have a bad impression of you if nothing else there is that. Um, so yeah, this is th it's not an easy thing. And like you think, I think a lot of people think like, well I'm just going to sit down and bang one of these out. Rekka:12:48   Yeah. Kaelyn:12:49   Don't do that. If you're, if you've written it in less than an hour, it's probably not something you want to send around unless you're just really, really good at these. Which if this is one of the first times you're doing it, you're probably still working some of them or at least you don't know if you're very good at them yet. Um, I mean cause I can tell you like when I write cover copy, which is kind of doing the same, same idea at least, um, I write it multiple times, walk away from it and look at it again later. Rekka:13:20   Right. Kaelyn:13:20   Cause it's a lot of ideas that you're trying to get down at once. Rekka:13:27   Yeah. You're trying to encapsulate an entire book, not just the plot. Obviously we touched on, you don't, it's not about the plot necessarily, but you're trying to encapsulate both the opening question, the hook of your book and sort of the tone of the entire thing all at once. Kaelyn:13:46   And now here's the other thing, we had talked in the last episode about preparing your submission. Oh No, wait, I'm sorry. Okay. We had talked about in the, uh, the debut author episode about how your favorite thing about the book may not be the most important thing about the book. Rekka:14:02   And that's really key to understand because the thing that you love about this book might be Hogwarts castle. You know, the selling point is the evil wizard war. Kaelyn:14:15   Um, so, you know, obviously having someone else take a look at it, especially someone that's read the book is super helpful because they can tell you if it's like, um, I mean, I liked your book and I feel like you're not saying the things that are gonna make other people want to read it. Rekka:14:33   Right. Kaelyn:14:33   So, so that said, what should be in this? Rekka:14:37   So like without getting too, too over-simplified one way to approach this might be like thinking about the over the voiceover and a movie trailer. Kaelyn:14:48   Oh yeah. Movie trailer voiceover is always a good, 'in a world - Rekka:14:52   Yeah, don't do that. Kaelyn:14:53   No, do it if that's what helps it gets you out of here, like - Rekka:14:56   Okay, for practice, play around with that. But um, don't put that in your query letter. Your final query letter should not start with "in a world where [laughs]' - Kaelyn:15:07   In a world where werewolves have gone into space and returning people they encounter into werewolves and turning aliens into werewolves and now those alien werewolves have come home. Rekka:15:19   So, um- Kaelyn:15:21   Actually can you write that? Rekka:15:22   Yeah, I'll write it. If you give me cover your cover art. Um, so I will, apparently really, really will write that . Kaelyn:15:31   [laughs] Rekka:15:34   So the trailer had 45 seconds to two minutes to completely hook you and apparently did a good job because you saw the movies. So, um, think about it in that terms. Like it might help to watch a couple trailers and not necessarily for how much they represented the movie correctly, but the kind of content that they're, they're showing you and keep in mind of course that they also can have dialogue clips and explosions where you don't necessarily get that, but you'll see sort of what I mean as far as like them actually representing the movie. Kaelyn:16:06   Yeah. So I'll just bullet point kind of four things that your query letters should do. One is introduce yourself briefly very briefly. That should just be I'm such and such. I do this and I'm really interested in this thing that I wrote. Um, I get query letters frequently that the bulk of it is someone's life story or an essay about why they wrote this. And I finished it and I'm like, oh, okay, that was great, but what am I about to read? So if you get through an entire query letter and you haven't really talked about what you're submitting - Rekka:16:45   Keep in mind if you are, if you are submitting to a publisher, this is for one book, this is not for you, the person they are, they are not going to invest in your career and necessarily like they may hope to be a big part of it, but this is not about you walking in and earning the corner office. This is about you have a title, it is a product and you want them to champion it. Kaelyn:17:11   Yeah. And so the other thing is that, you know, like obviously your publisher is at some point going to want to know about you. If they're interested in your book, they will get in touch with you and find out about you. Rekka:17:22   Chances are you've got a bit of a, an Internet trail anyway. They can find out a little bit about it., just scrape the surface. Kaelyn:17:27   If someone is potentially interested in your book, they will call you and find out about you. For now, your main thing is to get them interested in your story. Rekka:17:36   Right. Kaelyn:17:36   Um, don't, introduce yourself. It's, it's always good just to have a little bit of context, but do it very briefly. And there's not really much of a need to include a lot of personal information., Rekka:17:49   No, no. And only the pertinent stuff. Kaelyn:17:51   Yeah. Uh, so second is, um, book stats. Kinda tell us about your story. Tell us how long it is. Tell us. Uh, it's genre and, um, that's, you know, the, just, just the stats. Yeah. If you click on it, what they come up with in terms of charisma and um, defence hit points, you know, that sort of thing. The important stuff, you know. Rekka:18:14   Let the acquiring editor know whether they want to reroll exactly. Kaelyn:18:17   Um, just very, you know, I'm, I wrote, my book is called, uh, The Containment Unit. It's about 120,000 words long, and it's a science fiction novel. Rekka:18:29   Hmm. I'm interested in that. Kaelyn:18:32   That's this podcast. Rekka:18:32   Yes, I know. Kaelyn:18:37   It's, you know, and that can be one sentence that's easy. There's, you know, there's ways to finesse the sentence a little bit. It doesn't just have to be a blatant statement of that. Um, so next is tell us about your story. Depending on what your story is, there's going to be certain parts that you want to emphasize more, but you're basically going for setting main character or characters, you know, if it's a group, kind of introduce a group. If it's main character, just that, and then their problem. So you're setting this stuff up and then you're telling them, but wait, then this happened. Rekka:19:12   Yep. Kaelyn:19:13   Either they start with a problem or it gets worse or they don't have a problem and then they have one. Rekka:19:18   Right. Kaelyn:19:18   You have to explain a little bit of where the plot is going. Um, I get frustrated reading query letters where it's paragraphs about the character and it's kind of like, so what happens to them? Rekka:19:35   Yeah. Cause that's when the stories really starts to get interesting or that's when it hooks people is when that character runs up against something else. Kaelyn:19:43   Exactly. So you're kind of and, this is where I went back to, do not summarize it. You're not telling me the, you're not giving me a synopsis or a summary here. You're giving me the, there was, you know, there is an alien who's stranded alone on earth but has made a decent life for themselves and is happy here. But then all of a sudden his buddies come to get him and they realize they can conquer this planet easily. Can he save earth from his friends? Rekka:20:13   Yeah. His own people. Yeah. Yeah. So one thing you mentioned, um, was the Colin Coyle method where like the first sentence buys you the first paragraph. So your query letter buys the very. Kaelyn:20:25   First sentence? Rekka:20:26   But like the very committal act of opening that documents, you know, like that's, that's a whole extra thing. They know that, you know, as an acquiring editor, they know that when they open that document they will be faced with a wall of text. Kaelyn:20:41   While, so Rekka just brought up point number four, which is hook me. Rekka:20:45   Yeah. Kaelyn:20:45   You want to get me at the end to go, I need to know if the alien can save earth from his friends. So you want to make me open the query, the, excuse me, you want to make me open the manuscript based on the query letter. Rekka:21:01   Right. Kaelyn:21:01   The last thing is you're trying to convince me to read your manuscript. Here is why you should be interested in this. So giving away the whole thing right off the bat is, you know, it's gonna and especially if this is maybe a little bit of a harsh reality, but maybe if you're not writing the synopsis well and then you give me the whole thing and I'm going, well that doesn't sound great. Rekka:21:29   It's like maybe you wrote an amazing twist, but you just laid it all out for me so it doesn't feel that twisty. Kaelyn:21:34   Yeah. And maybe I'm not getting the correct emphasis on the plot and the high points of the. Rekka:21:40   Yeah. And, and that when you write, uh, some, uh, when you write a synopsis, all that tension, all that momentum doesn't necessarily exist the way it does in your story. So all you want to do is give them the trailer that makes them bite and say, buying the movie ticket is opening that word doc. Kaelyn:21:59   Yeah. So the other thing along the hook me line that you should be doing is, okay, you've written a great query letter. I am really, really like, I want to know does the little green alien managed to help save earth from all of his drunk friends? You know, and I opened your manuscript and let's say there's just something in the writing's good, but for instance, it's really slow, like the first few chapters, just, there's not much happening here. But from your query letter, I know what's coming. Rekka:22:31   Right. You know the 25% mark hook. Kaelyn:22:35   Yes. Basically, I know what this is building to. So instead, and this is a good example of why you need one. Because I, we do get a lot of manuscripts that just don't have query letters, which is not great because then if I'm reading, you know, like the first few chapters of your book and I'm like, there's nothing happening here and I have no context for what is going to happen later, that's gonna make me go, well this is, this is too slow. I can't do this. So that's just another argument as to why it's excellent idea to try to hook the reader into it. Um, so now you're probably going, OK, well like, so how do I do this? Rekka:23:13   Yeah. Kaelyn:23:15   There are websites and there are articles that will say like, this is the format you should have. Um, I think they're okay to use as guidelines - Rekka:23:23   If you really don't know where to start. Kaelyn:23:25   The other really good thing to keep in mind is that not every format is going to work for the best way to pitch your book. So if your, um, if yours works better with, you know, getting right into the, here's the stuff about my story and then introducing yourself at the end, do that. If you feel like it's an easier transition to say, hello, Parvus Press, my name is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then go into your story. Um, do that. It's, I won't say there is a definitive correct way to write a query letter because it's the way that you can best present your work. Rekka:23:59   Right. And so while I, you know, maybe you don't have to write nine, but play around with different formats and see which feels natural. Kaelyn:24:06   Absolutely. Actually, you just brought up a very good point of different versions because in the prepping your submissions, uh episode we had done before this, we talked about caveats. If you have a thing that it's like, listen, I know that you said you don't want Werewolf stories, but mine's about werewolves but they're in space and you said you're interested in SciFi, this is a good spot to put that in the query letter. Like I did read your submissions guidelines. Rekka:24:38   It's not that I'm completely defying them, but here's why I'm defying them. Kaelyn:24:43   Yes.And it's um, you know, it gives you a little bit of a chance to explain. Now this is not the space to write a 20 page enpassioned argument. Rekka:24:50   No, but this gives you the intro that you can begin to let her with and actually kind of like kicks open the door just a tiny bit because you're going to be more uncomfortable because you have something to approach them with. Like you already know what they're looking for or more specifically in this case, what they're not. So you are responding to them on a personal level that shows several things. One that you, you know, like you have an interesting twist on something that maybe felt a little tropey to them. Two, that you did read the submission guidelines, which is always a good look. Kaelyn:25:20   I love when people read submissions guidelines. Rekka:25:21   Three, it's like your explanation of like, but wait, hear me out. This is your personality. Kaelyn:25:26   Yeah. Rekka:25:27   So you're, you actually are packing a lot of data for this publisher into this opening volley that you are going to start with. Kaelyn:25:35   Yeah. And you actually kind of then touched on another good point with your query letter and format. The tone of your query letters should kind of match the tone of your book. If you're writing a really dark, you know, fantasy kind of upsetting setting where nothing ever good happens and you start out, this is a journey of friendship and hope, then - Rekka:25:59   There are puppies! Kaelyn:26:00   And it's the tone of your query letter, especially the part where you're pitching your story should match what is going on with the book. Rekka:26:10   Yeah. Kaelyn:26:10   Um, you know, not, it doesn't, not, not, I'm not talking about in prose and style. Rekka:26:15   Yeah, and don't write it from the first person of the main character and - Kaelyn:26:20   Point number two: Now is not the time to be cute. Yeah. Um, I understand that, you know, a lot of writers struggle to do something unique to make themselves stand out. Rekka:26:31   I think there was some bad advice floating around that you should like make your query letter differ from everybody else's query letter. But like it's not going to be, there are so many query letters that it's going to be a lot like someone else's. And if it's a lot like someone else's and it's like wincingly campy, unless your book is campy on purpose, like maybe don't. Kaelyn:26:51   A lot of them, um, a lot of them are the same but good query letters, like, you know, it's not that the query letter stood out necessarily, it's that - Rekka:27:00   It didn't get in its own way. Kaelyn:27:02   It didn't get it sewed away and that it did a good job. Rekka:27:05   Mmmhmm. I like to compare, I mean it's not quite perfect, but I like to compare it to a gallery. You go to a gallery and the walls are painted white and the walls are painted white so that the paintings and the artwork and the sculptures, et Cetera can stand out. And that's what you focus on. So if you get clever or cheeky with your language, if you decide you're going to write it in pig Latin because you think that they'll notice you like that's an extreme case. Please don't do that unless your book is about pig Latin. Um, and even then save it for like one paragraph or a p s or something. But anyway, so like just keep your language simple. The tone can match, but don't get overly emphatic with anything. Don't, don't show desperatation. I don't know what you want to call it, but like be let your language in your corner. Let itbe the gallery wall and let your ideas stand out. Not the way you phrase it. Kaelyn:28:03   Your language should be showcasing your idea. That's, that's it. You should not be having to do, you know, anything too overly clever or crazy to get an acquisition editor or an agent's attention. Rekka:28:19   Right. They'd been reading through a lot of these. If yours is simple and clean and clear and concise, that's gonna stand out on its own. Kaelyn:28:25   Yeah. It's, you know, and there's nothing wrong with writing in a very confident way. There's nothing wrong with, um, I, you know, I get, um, I get some humor novels sometimes that, um, you know, especially like fantasy kind of things. And the query letters are kind of written frequently in the same tone as the book and sometimes it works really well and sometimes it's what I would call overly sarcastic. Rekka:28:57   Ooh, okay. Kaelyn:28:58   And you'd be sup- that's something that was a weird one that I keep that pops up every now and then. I get these very like, sarcastic, almost nihilistic. Rekka:29:06   Mmmm. Kaelyn:29:06   Um, kind of tones in the query letter. Rekka:29:09   And this is coming from someone who claims to be an nihiliist. Kaelyn:29:11   I'm pretty nihilistic. Rekka:29:13   Yeah. Kaelyn:29:14   That's okay. I'm happy about it. Rekka:29:15   Yeah. So be optimistically nihilistic in your query letters. If you're going to go that way. But like, you have one chance to leave a taste in the, in the reader's mouth about what you are promising them and if it comes off as in like this entire thing is going to be like Dwight from the office. I mean Dwight needs a full cast to stand down. Yeah. So your query letters should not just be Dwight. Kaelyn:29:41   Yes, that's very true. One of the things we're going to do before we wrap up here is Rekka has very selflessly and generously agreed to read her query letter that got her signed at Parvus actually for Flotsam. Um, so if you read Flotsom, you, which you should go read Flotsam and Aalvage is now officially out for a week as of this episode launch. Um, so we want to read it because it's interesting to hear it and then you know, if you've read Flotsam compare it to what the book is. I think your query letter was a pretty accurate engaging representation, but it, but then things changed. Rekka:30:21   Right. So, so it was a good representation. Things changed later in the revision process once I was with Parvus, but I had to choose what to focus on for my query letter. So if you've read Flotsam well maybe I'll read the query letter first. So, um, good afternoon. So there's, there's a personal note at the beginning because I thought I knew who it was going to. Ironically that is not who read it. So I'm always, you know, there is a chance that you might address it to the editor and find out that was not actually the person who read it. Obviously we're not just talking about the slush pile, but someone else at Parvus higher up picked it up. Kaelyn:31:03   Yup. So not me. Rekka:31:04   I'll start with good afternoon. And then there was the personal note, um, in which case I'd like to present my first novel Flotsam for purposes consideration Talis, tries to do right by the small crew of her airship wind saver. It's not easy when your work isn't legal. You take the contracts, you can get. Her ledgers drip with expenses that she has no idea how to cover, not with the work they've been getting lately. When an anonymous client offers a small fortune to make a salvage run for some old ring. Talis accepts the contract. No questions asked. Hankirk's skills are wasted. His forefather led a revolt against the domineering gods of Peridot, but the Order of Kindness Rising who carry on that legacy only want Hankirk to symbolize their legitimacy. To prove he is more than a figurehead, he needs an ancient ring that was almost lost a time. When the Kindness council rejects his proposal, Hankirk turns elsewhere to get the ring and who better than his old girlfriend turned criminal Talis to snatch it up for him. Talis puts what little cash she has left into the salvage operation in banks on the big payday, which works until the anonymous client turns out to be Hankirk, her instincts tell her to keep the ring as far away from him as possible. The smart thing to do would be to drop the ring overboard again, but she still needs to get paid. Written under the pen name. RJ. Theodore, Flotsam is an action packed ensambal space pop opera of 104,658 words containing creaking, airships, deadly magic and powerful aliens. There is far more room for additional adventures set in these unique world. Thank you for your consideration. Kaelyn:32:34   Okay, so right off the bat, 104,000 words. Rekka:32:39   Yeah. Kaelyn:32:39   That, how many did this book end up being? Rekka:32:41   118,000. Kaelyn:32:42   Okay. Not as much as I thought you added. Rekka:32:47   Inflation came with Salvage. Kaelyn:32:49   Right. Yes. Yeah. Rekka:32:50   No. That's where the inflation rates really skyrocketed. Kaelyn:32:52   Not as, not as much as I thought you added, but definitely not nothing. Rekka:32:56   Right. So - Kaelyn:32:56   For those who have a read Flotsam, you'll know that that's not an incorrect representation of the book, but - Rekka:33:06   Some names changed. Kaelyn:33:06   Some names changed. Rekka:33:08   The length changed. Kaelyn:33:09   The length changed and some of the focus of what you'd maybe emphasize if you were resubmitting this now would have changed. Rekka:33:19   Well see, hat's the thing is there are very small details and things that came out of like planning the sequel and the, and the third book in the trilogy, um, that, I might want to foreshadow a little bit in this, but this was pretty close to the version that was done. We just expanded certain ideas and there were certain things that I was asked to like, can you go back through and seed some of this or this scene doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Maybe we can cut it and I go, oh no, there's like something really key happening there. Let me work on that scene. And then that scene got a little longer and stuff like that. But the, um, the things that were emphasized in this, you might not emphasize if you were thinking back on the book, like there's almost no mention of the crew. Kaelyn:34:05   Well actually, so that's what I was about to ask you. So if he were querying Flotsam as it ended up being published, what changes would you make to this query letter? Rekka:34:15   But that's what I was trying to say is that this was one of nine and there was a version or two that included stuff about the crew. There was a stuff that included, um, mention of the character Maron who comes in late in the first book. You know, there's, um, more mention of the aliens. You know, there, there were different versions and this one was the most character focused and had the most punch to it. So it was not so much that I needed to when I was writing this broadcast specific details and make the perfect encapsulation of what to expect in this book. It was make this book sound appealing and relatable and get somebody to open this. Kaelyn:34:58   Yes. And I think that query letter did an excellent job of that. Rekka:35:02   Thank you. So yeah, it doesn't - Kaelyn:35:04   Because I mean back cover copy. Rekka:35:06   Yeah. Yes. Um, I'm talking to the easy crowd, but so the back cover copy of the book ended up being far more focused on the overwhelming odds against this crew than it did on Hankirk versus Talis. Kaelyn:35:21   Now something else that's interesting, yhat is not in that query letter at all is Peridot. Rekka:35:28   Right. Kaelyn:35:29   And the setting. Rekka:35:30   So that is, and this goes back to what we were saying, like the thing that like wows you the most about your own story may not be right for the query letter. Kaelyn:35:39   Because one of the things that I love most about Flotsam is the setting of it. Rekka:35:44   I love building it . Kaelyn:35:45   Yeah and Peridot and this idea of these, the cataclysm that broke apart the planet and it's now the chunks are being held together and there's just garbage everywhere. Rekka:35:56   Everywhere underneath. Kaelyn:35:56   Everywhere underneath. Rekka:35:57   And you don't get that from the query letter. But that's hard to explain and still have room to get into characters and plot. Kaelyn:36:06   And this where we're getting to with why these are so hard to write because you may have to sacrifice important elements for more important elements. Rekka:36:14   Or for more relatable elements. I guess like something in order to draw someone in you have to make them care. And in order to make them care, you have to make it understandable what's going on. So for me to say that 75 generations ago, the planet's gods like broke the whole planet in a quest for extra power is neat. But now I've just wasted half of my query letter and I haven't even gotten to what happens in the book. Kaelyn:36:38   And that's the thing with um, a query letters is real estate. Rekka:36:43   Yeah. Kaelyn:36:43   You have to think of it as, I only have so much space. What can I fit in here elegantly? It's anattrition factor. You have to like, you know, I know whenever I cover copy and um, I think a good method for doing query letters, even things like when I do a right announcements, I bullet point, I get a sheet of paper and I actually sit there and write this out in a bullet point. Things that they want the reader to know. And then I go through and I put them in the order of what I think is most important and that's kind of going to give you, you know, and then you'll figure out how to tie them together. Okay. I can move this up. If I bring it to here and get instead of three sentences, I can do that in two and I know it sounds so stupid and so like, Oh, you're just fiddling with sentences. You're going to have to do that. If you think that you're not going to be going, okay, wait, if I change these five words, I can use three instead. Yeah, it's the minuteness. Rekka:37:43   So obviously that's just one example of a query letter and your query letter, it might not sound anything like that. You might lead with your name because you don't have the personal note to put at the top of the letter. You might have more to say about one character and not so many secondary characters to introduce in the query letter and don't. When I say more to say about one character, I don't mean go on at length. I just mean, you know. Instead of me going character one, one paragraph character to a second paragraph, boom, here's how they fell together. It might be, here's what character one wants, here's what character one is against in the world. And the boom is how does that character going to, how do they plan? Because you don't want to give away how they succeed or fail, but you do want to say like, okay, here's what they're after and here's what's going to happen. Here's their big plan. Kaelyn:38:31   Yeah. You gotta you definitely have to figure out like that balance in there. But um actually Rekka again brought up another point. Rekka:38:38   I'm so good at this. Kaelyn:38:39   No, you do because it just, it makes me think of and remember things. Um, you know, the personal note in the beginning - Rekka:38:45   Is optional. Kaelyn:38:47   Well, if you're submitting to someone, like let's say, you know, you ran into me at the nebulas and I gave you my card and said, yeah, you know, you should, you know, I'd love to read that. Putting a little note in the beginning, like reminding me like, Hey, Kaelyn, I'm so, and so we met at the Nebulas, you know, my book is this. That's a, this is a good spot to do that. Rekka:39:04   Yeah. Kaelyn:39:04   Um, you know, if it's an agent that also, you know, invited you to query with them directly. Rekka:39:09   But if no one did, don't put it in. Kaelyn:39:11   Don't put that in. Rekka:39:12   Obviously start this relationship off very professionally with honesty. Kaelyn:39:17   And so I'm going to end this with, with one thing me and Rekka and I were talking about when we were getting barbecue today, um, that I was kind of thinking like, uh, this might've been a good thing to put in the prepping your submissions thing. But I'll start out with the query letters because it's kinda, I don't want to see your fan art of this. Um, I don't, this should be just your query letter in your manuscript. Rekka:39:44   No supplemental materials. Kaelyn:39:46   If you drew some things for it, if you did some, you know, maybe a map, but that should be included with your manuscript, if it's relevant. Rekka:39:57   Not necessarily like here's, here's how I'd suggest handling this. By now I hope you have an author website. So if you have an area that's got your artwork and you have an area that has a map and you say like, this is from my upcoming project, which I have currently titled Blah, it's on submission or it's, I'm querying it right now. Um, and so hopefully, you know, like you don't, you don't want to give away the manuscript on your website, but you can put the artwork because it's probably not going to be the final artwork. Kaelyn:40:28   Yeah. Um, as a good rule of thumb and not including art work, um, you know, especially cover art because we've talked about this a little bit before and we will do a whole episode on this in the future. You don't really get any say in your cover art. So if you're sending me anything, it's just kind of like you, when you talk about like impressions, that's not a good place to start. Rekka:40:50   Yeah. If you're not a professional professional cover artist or illustrator, there's a very good chance that you're actually going to sour the impression of your manuscript with your - and okay. I'm using the word amateur, but I mean it in its literal sense which is - Kaelyn:41:06   You're not professional. Rekka:41:08   You're, people, amateur comes from doing it for the love of it. Kaelyn:41:11   Yeah. Rekka:41:11   That's where the word comes from. That's what I mean. But if this is not something you are trained to do, this is not something you do professionally where the illustrations you create end up on book covers. There's probably a nuance to book covers that you are missing so it does not necessarily help you. I might even hurt you to include materials for a published book that you are not asked for in the submissions guidelines. So submissions guidelines is probably going to ask you for your mind manuscript and it's probably going to ask you for a query letter and it's probably not going to say, and any artwork you've drawn from your story. Kaelyn:41:47   And look ,it's great that like you're very excited and invested in it. Rekka:41:50   Like I said, put it on your website. Kaelyn:41:51   You can put it on your website - Rekka:41:53   The publisher, if they're interested, they'll check out your website. Kaelyn:41:55   Yes. Oh definitely. That's one of the first things. Rekka:41:57   Yeah, Kaelyn:41:58   I always do, but like it's, I'm not saying this to be harsh or to dampen the excitement that you have for your book in your characters. It's just one of those things where like we don't need this and this isn't, this isn't a value add yet and this isn't, this isn't the time to put this in there. I would go so far as to say it's not appropriate to put it in there because that's not what we're asking for. I don't your your ability to draw or depict your characters or the world is not going to have any bearing on the decision I make about your book. That's not making me go, oh, this is better because of this. Rekka:42:39   However, it might make Kaelyn say, oh, they're going to want to use their artwork in the book. Kaelyn:42:45   Well it's gonna make me wonder if this is going to be a fight. Rekka:42:47   Yeah. Right. And that goes back to the whole like how easy is it going to be to work with you that we were talking about in the submissions episode. Kaelyn:42:54   Every little thing you do or don't do in this process is an indicator of what it will be like to work with you. So, Rekka:43:04   Be cool. Kaelyn:43:05   Yeah. Rekka:43:05   Just send in the manuscript, send in a nice query. Kaelyn:43:07   Be cool and follow directions. That's, I mean that's the best advice I can give you if you are concerned or if you're unsure about something default to professional. Rekka:43:17   Right. Always. Kaelyn:43:19   And you know, so that's, that's the guidelines that I have for query letters. I know I'm making it sound scary. I won't say it's not hard, but it's not scary. Rekka:43:31   Right. Kaelyn:43:32   Um, it is difficult. So don't go into it thinking that it's going to be easy, Rekka:43:37   Right. But look at it as a challenge because this is a skill you were going to develop as a result of doing this. So just like, you know, learning how to write better, how to self edit, you know, for an easy pass. There's lots of tips on that online. There are lots of tips on how to write query letters online and you can go and see some examples, see some definite what not to do is out there. And it's a skill that it behooves you, even if for some reason you only have to write one query letter in your life, it's a good thing to practice. Kaelyn:44:11   Oh definitely. Rekka:44:11   So see it as a challenge. You know, like, you know, use me as an example. I wrote nine and I got to pick my favorite one. It's way different than trying to want wrtie one perfect one. Kaelyn:44:22   Yes. Rekka:44:22   And so just like, you know, in your practice overshoot so that then you can like back down and take a look and like this, okay, this is, this one's working and I can tell this one's working versus this one because of this. And then you might end up writing a 10th one. That's the one you actually use. But you, you're building a skillset. Kaelyn:44:41   Yup. So, um, that's the query letters episode. See that wasn't so bad. We got through it. Rekka:44:45   We got through it. You can get through it. Kaelyn:44:46   You can get through it. Um, so next week there's going to be our two parter. Rekka:44:51   Right. Kaelyn:44:52   We're doing a Tuesday and Wednesday release and it's all about agents. Um, we're going to talk to you some authors, about - Rekka:45:00   Who have agents. Kaelyn:45:00   Who have agents, and then we're going to talk to an actual agent, real life, who breathing agents, who has some authors. Rekka:45:07   As it turns out. Kaelyn:45:08   As it turns out. And um, you know, ask them some questions on both ends, about, you know, how you got to your agent or agents, how you pick your authors. Uh, so I'm excited for that one because I think that's, that's a thing a lot, that's a big question a lot of people have, Rekka:45:25   Right, well, it's like who's on the other end of this query letter. Kaelyn:45:28   Who is this mythical creature, this literary agent? Rekka:45:31   Right. And literary agent that sounds very like diplomatic and like maybe. Kaelyn:45:36   They are diplomatic - Rekka:45:38   And they are an ambassador. So, but, um, yeah, so we're going to get a little taste of actual, you know, just like we shared my query letter, we're going to share some personal stories about, you know, not too personal, but like, you know, individual stories of successful agent landings. Y. Kaelyn:45:54   eah. So, um, we're still open to and willing to be taking any additional questions of, for things that were not covered in this, you know, if we, like we said, if we get enough, we'll do a, a, a sixth episode this month. Rekka:46:06   It might be October 1st. Kaelyn:46:09   Yeah. You know, with just things that we talked about that anyone listening might want to hear more about. So you know, as, as usual, if you have questions, you have comments, hit us up on the a, the socials. Rekka:46:20   Socials, @WMBcast almost everywhere where we exist, patreon.com/WMBcast. If you are finding a lot of value in these episodes and especially the submission September, we'd love your support and we can't wait to share some bonus content with you over there. But yes, find us on Twitter and Instagram at WMB cast and you can send us a direct message on Twitter if you have questions that you want to be anonymous. If you don't need an animosity no, that's not the right word. Kaelyn:46:48   Anonymity. Rekka:46:52   Anonymiminy? Kaelyn:46:52   Annonnumititity Rekka:46:52   If you don't care if people read your questions, Kaelyn:46:54   That one! [laughs] Rekka:46:54   You can directly reply to the tweet about the, the episode in question. So come find us and come chat. Kaelyn:47:02   Yeah, if you message us in, you want to be anonymous, just, you know, drop a say like, Hey, I just want to be anonymous. Rekka:47:07   I'm blushing as I ask, but yeah, that's fine. We can honor that. Kaelyn:47:10   No, I mean, we'd like, there's no like wrong questions here. There's nothing that you can send us that we're going to go, they don't even know that. Rekka:47:18   Right. So, um, yeah, we'd love to hear from everyone and we hope you're enjoying this. Kaelyn:47:23   Definitely. Rekka:47:24   So let us know if you're finding a good value in these. And if you are, we'd always appreciate a rating and review on your podcast app. Kaelyn:47:32   Yes. So, uh, we'll be back next week with more, with the agents. Rekka:47:36   See you then guys.  

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! This week, we’re talking about a special state of being: The Debut Author. Who are these mysterious creatures, caught between a new chapter of their lives and the rest of their careers? What do the fates and their futures have in store for them?  And how the heck do you kill all of this time waiting for your book to be released??  Being a debut author is uncharted waters for most, how exactly do you navigate this? We talk about all of these things, yell about cookies, and Kaelyn nearly dies of shock after Rekka makes a sports analogy mid-episode. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and your thoughts on Amazon’s upcoming Lord of the Rings Series. We hope you enjoy We Make Books!   Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Rekka:00:00   Welcome back to, we make books, a podcast about writing, publishing and everything in between. I'm Rekka Jay. I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn:00:08   And I'm Kaelyn Considine. I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. And today we're talking about debut authors, uh, which Rekka still is one. Rekka:00:19   Technically. Kaelyn:00:20   As of when this is being released. But yeah, not for much longer now for much longer than two weeks. Kaelyn:00:26   I will no longer be a debut author and we'll have to hang up that hat. So this episode was inspired. Well, we already had the idea to do an episode on being a debut author because I've seen it come up a lot and since we agreed that we would do that, it came up a few more times. Um, @ka_doore - K.A. Door, who is the author of the Perfect Assassin, did a tweet thread about the handbook that needs to be written for debut authors. Kaelyn:00:54   Someone should handle that. Kaelyn:00:55   Yes. And um, Kai did offer that. If anyone would like to pay her to take two weeks off of work, she would happily write that handbook. And so some of our topic points were taken right out of that. And then Melissa Caru, author of The Tethered Mage @MelissaCaru also sort of talked about what an odd sensation it is to be a debut author. So those were two that I wanted to just shout out and thank for, um, you know, just kind of guiding our conversation a little bit. And also, you know, like say, hey, we see you. You know, cause as you'll hear in this episode, sometimes you're just like, what am I doing? Who, who am I now that I have a book deal and, and what am I getting into. Kaelyn:01:40   It's both an identity and existential crisis. Rekka:01:43   And it's a big to do list as well. So, um, we talk about the tasks that you need to accomplish, the things your publisher will be doing. How would it talk to your publisher and your agent during this time when you feel like maybe they're just busy and they don't have time for you because they're supposed to be doing something and you shouldn't be bothering them. Stuff like that. And then also like how to feel and how not to feel and how to distract yourself from your feelings. Kaelyn:02:04   Yeah. So, um, we hope you enjoyed the episode and by the way, stick around through the end of it because we have some news announcement type thing and then also we have a giveaway the end of the episode. Um, so, uh, stick around. Take a listen there and um, we hope that you enjoy Episode 11: Debut Authors Kaelyn:02:32   We don't have the material to make cookies. Rekka:02:32   We're going to grab stuff out of the kitchen. Kaelyn:02:46   Rekka, how long have you known me now? YOu can't be like, oh, cookies and then not have cookies for me. Rekka:02:51   We'll make cookies when we're done. Kaelyn:02:53   God dammit, now I want a cookie. Rekka:02:56   Let's get through these episodes and earn our cookies. Kaelyn:02:58   Fine. Rekka:02:59   Okay. Kaelyn:02:59   But only because I like you. Rekka:03:01   My idea for today was to talk about what life is either going to be like if you are a, uh, a newly signed author or what life is like if you are on your way to your first release stage or what life was like if you are listening and, and feeling these feels in retrospect. Kaelyn:03:25   There's a lot of feelings going around here. Rekka:03:27   I'm trying not to make this one like a tear jerker or my own sob story, but there is the potential for some feelings and having to talk about them. Kaelyn:03:38   Hey, look feelings, feelings are okay, feelingare things. Rekka:03:42   Are they though? Kaelyn:03:44   I mean I don't have them personally, but I'm told that - Rekka:03:48   I just feel like life would be easier without them. Kaelyn:03:51   It is, it definitely is. Rekka:03:54   Um, I tried to put my feelings in books and not contain them in my human self. Kaelyn:04:00   Well that's great because then we keep getting books out of you. So as long as- Rekka:04:04   It does work - Kaelyn:04:05   As long as you keep uh, on that track, I'm happy. Um, so yeah, we're talking about, you know, what happens over the course of getting signed your pre-release and then your book coming out and what your, your life changes if you will or lack thereof. In some cases. Rekka:04:22   Things are going to change except they also kind of aren't. Kaelyn:04:25   Yes. Rekka:04:26   Um, so when you have signed your book deal, unless you are an outlier, you don't get to quit your day job. Kaelyn:04:35   I mean that would have to be one hell of an advance. Rekka:04:37   It would. And considering you probably only get a portion of it when you first signed the contract, it would really have to be a hell of an advance because now whatever that is, if you were to quit your day job would have to last you probably like 18 months. Kaelyn:04:50   Well, here's, here's, I'll take it a step farther. If you have an advance that would allow you to quit your day job, you're probably not a debut author. Rekka:05:00   Right. Or, or somehow you got a really good agent - Kaelyn:05:04   Or you're Robert Mueller. Rekka:05:05   Is that his debut? Kaelyn:05:08   Well No, I mean like, you know, if he gets a book deal he's going to get - Rekka:05:13   Yeah. Kaelyn:05:13   I'm sure he'll be getting a multimillion dollar advance. Rekka:05:16   Anyway, the um the advance you get is not going to allow you in 999 cases out of a thousand is not going to allow you to quit your day job. So your day to day life doesn't change except now you are a signed author and you have signed author responsibilities. You thought your manuscipt was done. Let me tell you, your manuscript's not done yet. Kaelyn:05:42   Also, if you thought your manuscript was done, please go back and listen to the previous 10 episodes of this. Rekka:05:47   Right. So there's more work to do on your manuscript. You will be, um, meeting and starting to work with your editor at your publisher. And um, you'll probably start to talk to different people at the publisher who are going to help with the launch. Uh, as you get closer to that. And so we just want to kinda list and you know, topic by topic, go over what kind of things you need to be expecting. Kaelyn:06:16   Yeah. So we won't spend too much time on like the meeting with your editor kind of thing because I'm, we did a lot of that in episode three for the um, you know, sort of walking you through the process, but you'll meet your, you know, meet your editor officially if you haven't already. Chances are, you've probably talked to someone before this, um, sit down and get a timeline out, get a, you know, we expected this by this date, which again will probably be in your contract, read your contract. Um, what the main thing that you're going to kind of have to pay attention to before that leading up to this is marketing and promotion and your publisher should be handling a lot of that. Have a plan. Again, this is probably hopefully something you talked about before you sign with them. It might even be things in your contract. Rekka:06:59   Which would be good because then you have it to reference and everyone has signed the agreement that these are the dates and the, and the things that are going to happen and the expectations for the marketing. Kaelyn:07:13   Yeah. So leading up to your book release. Um, so you might be going, okay, well that's what like my publisher's doing, like, but I'm not, you know, I'm not buying ads and doing, uh, you know, marketing stuff. But you might be recruited to appear at different events or readings. Um, you might be asked to do like some promotional stuff, you know, interviews or things of that nature. Rekka:07:39   Mmmhmm, so the other thing that you can be doing, you know, like up to this point, when you were a drafting author and you were writing your first book and you were on submission, if you had any presence on social media at all, it was probably related to like, oh, this is so hard. Or you know, commiserating with other writers and that sort of thing. And now you are an author with a publishing contract and you need to start thinking about how to get future readers onto your social media. So that's something you can sort of be doing is, um, looking at ways that you can build your platform for readers as well as, you know, your fellow writers or just your friends or the companies that you followed or whatever was your Twitter before. If you haven't started to cultivate it toward your writing presence, then you might want to start to like reconfigure how you talk on social media, not as in like become someone fake, start to talk about different things. Um, start to, you know, the process of launch and - Kaelyn:08:47   Keep everyone up to date with you know, what's going on with you. Um, one thing is it's, it's just nice to see, I really enjoy seeing people that I know or work with, you know, saying like, oh, it's this many weeks or I just got this back and it's, it's nice. It's a way of, you know, kind of, because this is a community of people you probably got a lot of support from over the years. They should want to cheer you on. Rekka:09:13   Right. Kaelyn:09:13   Um, but also it's just kind of one of those, and you know, it depends on how big of a following you have, obviously, but just keeping the reminders going that like, I have this book coming out. Rekka:09:27   Right, because eventually you can do a cover reveal. You can, you know, tweet that and then pin it to the top of your feed. And now when someone goes to your Twitter profile, you've got your preorder link at the top. Um, now in your bio you can say the release dates and, um, you know, if you've got a short link, you can put that there. Your banner can now have your cover art on it. You know, now you see, you start to like turn this into sort of a funnel for somebody who appears at your profile for the first time. They know exactly how to find your book because you've made it easy for them. Part of your half of the marketing is just keeping up your presence and making it easy for people who find you to also find your books. Um, this does not mean that three times a day you need to tweet pre-order my book, preorder my book, pre-order my book. You're - Kaelyn:10:20   Oh please, don't do that. Rekka:10:21   You're going to chase people away with that. Kaelyn:10:22   You are. Yeah. It's, um, you know, when something comes up or you know, something changes or you have news, it's always a nice little time to be like, Hey, I've got this book coming out also. Rekka:10:32   So you have this publishing deal and you're talking about it on Twitter. Um, you know, you're not revealing anything that's, you know, secret to your contract or anything like that, but you are talking about the process and you're sharing it with people. And those people may be writers. Those people might be future readers. Um, they might be friends, but in the rest of your life, since you didn't get to quit your day job, um, you might be tempted to tell your coworkers about your new book or, uh, people at the grocery store, et Cetera. Kaelyn:11:01   Random people in passing. Rekka:11:05   Random people. That impulse may fade rather quickly. When you get to the same question from every single one of them thing, which was how much money did you make or when's the movie come out? Which is a great way of saying, I don't plan to read your book. I just want to know when you're famous. I just want to be able to say I knew you. Um, yeah, those, those are the types of questions you're going to get from people who don't really know how to engage. My, uh, my coworkers. Um, the one who was most excited for me basically said, so you don't need this place at all anymore and well, not quite. Kaelyn:11:39   They don't know how things work. Rekka:11:41   And I believe there is a perception because I left that job. I believe there's a perception that people thought I left it to go become a full time writer. And while that would be absolutely wonderful, that is not reality that I ever expect to come true of being able to support myself fully on my writing without pulling some serious hustle and probably working harder than I do now to market the self published books. Kaelyn:12:06   Give us all of the words Rekka. Rekka:12:08   Yes, and Parvus will be clamoring and say, no, you can't self publish that. We want that. So, um, so that is, that's like a weird realm that you're going to exist in. You want to effusively bubble over with this news and it's not going to be taken exactly how you mean it from a lot of people. Like, um, just to warn you, there are people who are going to think you're bragging. There's that, going back to that perception that you can now quit your day job and all this kind of stuff. People might think you're bragging because they don't understand what really hasn't changed all that much. Your book is going to come out, but, um, it doesn't mean that you're going to start driving a Tesla. I mean like those big advances, that's what people see because those are the ones that make the news. Kaelyn:12:51   Yeah. Rekka:12:51   So that's what people might perceive that you are um, expressing when really, you know, like part of it is your excitement. Part of it is your relief because you know, you worked really hard and yes this is a good book and yes someone does want to publish it. Kaelyn:13:07   You know, at the end of the day this is, this is hard to say. Your coworkers, if they're good people will say, that's great, congratulations. When does it come out? Oh, I'd love to preorder a copy as far as they're concerned, that's all they need to- Rekka:13:16   Right. That conversation was a moment in time for them where it was like this is your new brain space where all you can think about is wanting to talk about this book all the time. Kaelyn:13:27   So just, you know, be aware that like, yes, this is life changing for you. For other people it's something that they're aware of and they're happy for you about, but it doesn't really mean that much to them. Rekka:13:38   And to that point, even within like the social media circles where you do have a lot more support, like you'll announce your book cover reveal and you'll get maybe a little bustle of attention that day, but it's going to fade similarly because not everyone has room on their plate to obsess over your book the way you do. Kaelyn:13:57   Exactly. Rekka:13:57   And most people don't even want to. And most people are doing their own thing and have their own obsessions. And so that can lead to almost like a dysphoria about the process. It feels very strange because yes, it's happening, but there's nothing to tell people today that isn't the same thing you told them yesterday and it can feel, it can actually start to feel a little bit extra lonely, um, because you feel like everything should be great, but you're slightly disappointed because you can't talk about it. It's actually easier to talk about how you are still searching for an agent or a publisher than it is to say, I am still working on my copy editor. Kaelyn:14:36   Well, there's more people to commiserate that the pool every time. This is the thing is every time you hit a success - Rekka:14:43   Like a career point - Kaelyn:14:44   You're taking another step up the pyramid, if you want to think of it that way. And there's coming - Rekka:14:49   You were a small fish in a big, in a smaller pond, Kaelyn:14:52   There's fewer and fewer people every step up. So, you know, when everyone's at the, you know, in the pond together going, I'm just trying to get my, well, let's say that's the ocean. Rekka:15:04   [laughs] Yeah. Kaelyn:15:05   I'm just trying to finish my book. Then you go to the, I finished my book. I'm just trying to get an agent. Then you get the agent, then you're just trying to get a publisher to pick it up. Then you get it published. Then every success narrows the field of people that you're in the same boat at. Rekka:15:21   That's right. It's like a funnel. Kaelyn:15:23   Yeah, exactly. Rekka:15:24   And there's a lot of filters and the folks who were with you in the ocean aren't necessarily going to follow you into your little Koi pond if you wanna, you know, talk about like making it all the way to the end of it. Kaelyn:15:37   Oh, it's definitely a Koi pond. Rekka:15:39   Um, goldfish bowl? Kaelyn:15:41   I like the Koi pond. Rekka:15:42   Yeah. Kaelyn:15:42   Some flowers in there, a little water for landscaping, some pretty fish, nice plants. Rekka:15:48   Um, so and too that, um, you know, along with that comes the imposter syndrome. And the funny thing is, and I've heard this mentioned many times, is that the imposter syndrome hits harder the more success you find. Kaelyn:16:05   I was going to say actually this is part one of the impostor syndrome. Rekka:16:08   Well, yeah. Kaelyn:16:09   Before you're published. Rekka:16:10   Yeah. Um, it's part of a whole process of, I think part of it is I feel like I should have eyes on me, but things haven't really changed all that much. Therefore I must be bad. That's kind of what posture and you know, like there's that game, um, where you like do the fortune cookie thing and you end every fortune cookie with in bed. Kaelyn:16:31   Yes. Rekka:16:32   Imposter Syndrome is that, but it ends every thought you have with therefore, I am a bad person and a bad writer and my books are bad and no one likes me. It's a very long version of the - Kaelyn:16:43   That, that's a big one - Rekka:16:45   But it's kind of what it's like. Um, things that are normal, things that everyone is experiencing end with this thought of, therefore I am bad and I should feel bad. Kaelyn:16:56   Um, something about writers, and I'm going to say this and I don't mean it in the like re- bad reality star type way. Writers need attention. And while I know that sounds like a petulant child, I don't mean it in that way. I mean that this is such a vulnerable thing to do. So when I say need attention, I mean, need encouragement - Rekka:17:26   We need a cheer squad. Kaelyn:17:26   and attention and people going, you're doing the right thing because for a debut author, you don't know if you're doing the right thing. This has never happened before. So it's nerve wracking because it's, you're like, yes, you're out of the ocean, but now you're in like Lake Michigan and at least you knew what was going on in the ocean. So being you feel adrift a little bit. So getting attention, when I say that means encouragement, discussions, talks and plans about things. Just attention on you and your book because it makes writers think like, okay, yeah, I got this. We're good here. Rekka:18:03   Yeah. And his frequent check-ins as you can get from your publisher, like encourage them to do that because it does, it just makes them, you know, cause it can get really quiet. Kaelyn:18:11   I - Rekka:18:12   They're part of the job. Kaelyn:18:12   I mean, I will say my authors, you know, depending on their personality, some of them are happy just being off in little author world forever. And um, you know, only talking when we need to, but like a bunch of them, like I, I email them every other week, every week or so, and just be like, hey, how's everything going? Need anything, you know, how's the next book coming? Um, one because I like all of my authors and I like to hear from them, um, too. But I think authors have a thing a lot of times that they don't want to bother their editor too much. And like that's nonsense. You should absolutely, every time there's a problem, be talking to your editor. But, so I always try to do that just to open the door for like I'm having this problem! Rekka:18:55   And if you have an agent, um, that you have another layer of like somebody that can be part of your process or, or help reassure you in these like scary, quiet moments and things like that. And so, um, the bigger the team of people that you work directly with on your books, I think the better you'll feel because you know, if, if you can set up a rapport with your agent or your editor or something like that where you are in touch pretty frequently. And also on that note, like know what you want out of the relationship from the start and - Kaelyn:19:26   I was just going to say that before you, you know, really get into this, um, a good conversation to have with your agent and with your editor, especially your editor because you know, your agent, that's a different relationship. They work for you. They, um, your editor technically also works for you, but it's a different, it's a different relationship with them. Rekka:19:46   There's a power balance there. Kaelyn:19:47   So having a quick conversation of like, you know, check-ins, how much communication, um, you know, I always tell my authors, like, if you need something, email me just, or you can send me a text, you can DM me on Twitter, whatever is easiest for you. Um, just, you know, I'm fine with you being in constant communication. It doesn't have to be relegated to our scheduled calls. Um, some editors, you know, understandably don't, you know, want that, they'll have more boundary set. Um, I on the other hand, have no boundaries. So, um, yeah, so that's, I mean, that's most of the pre-stuff. Rekka:20:26   Yeah. Um, and just further on that note, like don't pretend to be a super altogether, not at all anxious author, and then suddenly 10 months into the process or, or don't just suddenly have a breakdown on them. Like, be okay with like talking to them whenever you want to - Kaelyn:20:46   Accept that this is going to be a stressful process and is going to put you in a very vulnerable position. Because if you try to keep up a brave face the entire time, you're going to lose your mind. Rekka:20:57   You have allies in this now, that's what comes with the publishing contract. So, um, don't be afraid to reach out to them, if you have questions. Kaelyn:21:05   It's a skill to acquire as well. But you know, eventually your book is going to come out. So then that's going to come with a whole other separate set of anxieties. Rekka:21:15   You will have been getting busy as your book is approaching. And um, what I wanted to also point out is that like in these long stretches of silence, you can be finding your community also by going to conferences. And we've talked about this a little bit, I think in episode, uh, the first two episodes we talked about, things you can be doing while you wait. Kaelyn:21:40   Oh yeah. Episode three after publication. We did a lot of, um, stuff about things that, you know, if you want, if you're interested, we talk a lot about that, but we, you know, we'll discuss it here, again, maybe go into a little more detail. Rekka:21:51   Yeah, it's just, you know, there are other writers who are at these stages. They're at every stage of the process and these are the people that are going to understand what you're going through the most. So, um, you know, find them at the conferences, friend them on Twitter and then it won't be quite as lonely through this whole process. Kaelyn:22:10   But also at these conferences and conventions that is a chance to promote yourself and your book. Rekka:22:15   Yes. Kaelyn:22:15   Going to these and signing up, you know, sign up for a panel or depending if they do that, do a reading. Um, first of all, they're a lot of fun and it's a really good experience to have. But I think, um, it, it gives you an idea of how hard it is to get up and talk about these things and you know, crowds and stagefright aside, this is something Rekka and I keep discovering when we're working on this, it's hard to organize your thoughts on this topic. Um, I always think that giving presentations about things or discussing them is a great way to sort of force yourself to sit down and confront realities. Rekka:22:55   And one of the things you're going to be doing at this point when you're waiting for your book to come out is preparing these sort of like nonfiction autobiographical sort of stories. Kaelyn:23:05   Oh yeah. Rekka:23:05   And doing presentations at conferences is a great way to get in the mindset of nonfiction because it is a huge shift. I had a really hard time when I was writing the essays for Flotsam is released all the blog appearances and that sort of thing. I had a huge mind block of being able to go from nonfiction to fiction. It's a, it's a skill to develop and it's not the same as writing fiction. Kaelyn:23:33   No, and I mean I will say as someone who, uh, prepares information like that for our releases writing, it sounds like it should be such an easy thing. I just need write my biography and tell a couple, you know, things about myself. Well, here's one thing maybe a lot of people don't consider. You really need about five versions of your, about me. Rekka:23:56   Yes. Kaelyn:23:56   One that is literally two sentences, like the kind that can just be stuck in the end of a magazine thing. One that's maybe a paragraph one that's two paragraphs, one that is considerably longer and more detailed and that's for if somebody really needs a lot of information about you, where you the author or the focus of everything. And then one that is kind of like a press release and that's the one that, it's funny cause I said press release, but it's actually what you're going to say out loud to people real quick about yourself. Think of it as if you're in an interview and like, so introduce yourself, introduce herself. I'm, you know, in my case it's, I'm Kaelyn Considine, I'm the Acquisitions Editor for Parvus Press and I also head up our editorial group and then you have to, the end of it should factor into what about you is relevant to the conversation, to the conversation that's taking place. Rekka:24:52   And it should sound natural. Kaelyn:24:53   Yes. Rekka:24:54   Because, um, when you say these out loud, it's very different from writing for them and let them - Kaelyn:24:58   Practice them. I mean you heard I just did mine right there and I have that memorized at this point. It's, it comes, it's, it's like a reflex now. Rekka:25:08   Yeah. And that's important because you know, you get frazzled, you might, um, you know, sit down and they've got the mic running already, you, but you realize like you just sat down on the end of your sweatshirt or something like that and you've got to readjust and they're already asking you to introduce yourself. So like these things that are practiced ahead of time, and I don't mean to make it sound like you're regurgitating it by rote, but you want to be comfortable so that, um, you know, the simplest things aren't difficult in that moment because, you know, you'll need to focus on the interview questions, you'll need to focus on, you know, whatever the topic is. So, um - Kaelyn:25:46   Get into this mindset where you are an author and you need to be able to communicate that quickly, effectively. And as a reflex, it will take a while to get used to that. Um, when I first started with Parvus, I did actually, this is, this is a good example. Um, I was just very, I won't say shy, but like people would, you know, I'd introduce myself and say on the Acquisitions Editor for Parvus Press, oh, that's so cool. I'm like, yeah, you know, it's not a big deal. The thing is it is a big deal and I should not have said that. But you want to, I don't want to say come off as humble, but like I personally get uncomfortable when people are like impressed with me and I think that's - Rekka:26:33   A great way to deflect that without actually deflecting it is to say, yeah, I'm super excited about it. So it's like you are appreciative and grateful for what you have, but also like acknowledge that it's an awesome thing. Yeah. So that's something to like maybe, you know, put in your pocket for getting compliments is don't deflect compliments. Like if you were a football player and someone passed you the ball, you would not deflect it and what you want in - Kaelyn:26:58   Rekka, was that a sports analogy?? Rekka:26:59   I, I, I've watched like a bunch of football in the past or - Kaelyn:27:05   Oh my what? Oh, oh boy! Rekka:27:07   Don't ask me to make a baseball analogy. I'm falling asleep because it's gone on too long. Kaelyn:27:12   I'm sorry. We need to stop for a second listeners because I am, I'm so happy right now. Rekka:27:20   Who says I'm going to watch football this fall? Kaelyn:27:22   No, we're going to watch football now. Rekka:27:25   Sorry, this is the end of the episodes. We're going to take a break. What is it? August through February and then we'll be back in March. Kaelyn:27:31   My world has been rocked, you know, in the best of ways. Anyway - Rekka:27:34   Don't deflect compliments because that is what you want and if you keep deflecting them, people will stop giving them to you. Kaelyn:27:40   But I mean in my case I like, you know, and it was a mind shift. It was the, you know, I have to get myself into the like, Oh Haha. It's no big deal. Get away from that. And like now people were like, oh wow, that's really cool. Do you like it? I love it. It's a lot of work, but I really enjoy it. You know, don't you know, you can, there are ways to roll into it to say thank you. I'm really excited. Thank you. It's a lot of work. But I love doing it, you know - Rekka:28:04   So, so, but like here's the thought. That person is excited about what you just told them. This is a great time to pitch a book at the same time. So by deflecting it, you end the conversation. This is like Improv. Yes and, not no. Kaelyn:28:21   [laughs] Rekka:28:21   You know, so that's not sports ball referencing but I've never done it. Kaelyn:28:27   I still, I don't know what I've said for the last, I'm going to have to go back and listen to this and find out what I actually said because I'm still in a daze from - Rekka:28:34   No, you're good. You're good. Um, yeah. So you want to keep the conversation moving, especially if this person is now interested and enthusiastic because as an author you have a chance to tell them about your story. As an editor, you have a chance to tell them about your, you know, your upcoming calendar. These are not people that you want to say. Yeah. It was great talking to you by like, you know, when you're, when you aren't prepared to have these conversations ahead of time, that's what happens. You kind of like end up closed up because you realize, oh I should be saying- Kaelyn:29:08   Words! Rekka:29:08   Sure, nevermind they left you know, so we're good with words but I'm talking out loud is a switch. A nonfiction is a switch and honestly now you need to be moving into marketing mode. You're pitching yourself, you're pitching your book, you're putting on the personality of the author you want to become. Kaelyn:29:28   So Rekka, real quick, you went to Reader Con recently. Rekka:29:31   I did. Kaelyn:29:32   And if you don't mind talking about it. Rekka:29:34   Yes. What did, what did we do leading up to Reader Con and this is to imagine that like Kaelyn would call me up because I had a three hour drive to Reader Con and I had expressed to her a couple of days before that it was a little nervous. I realized I was going to be on a podcast and um, so I knew I was going to be interviewed. I knew I was going to meet new people and that someone was going to turn to me and say, tell me about your book. And I have been so busy with lots of editing and lots of other things. And my, and the tricky part about having a second book coming out is that you kind of also have to pitch the first book because it's - Kaelyn:30:12   You've got work that in a little bit. Rekka:30:12   I suddenly said to Kaelyn, um, a few days before Reader Con kind of like, oh, I should be thinking about my pitch. And Kaelyn said, this sounds like an opportunity for me to dig in my dress up box and put on mustaches and hats and pretend to be someone else. Kaelyn:30:28   One of them was a tutu. Rekka:30:30   I like to imagine that you did dress up for each of these voices that you assumed. She called me while I was on the road to Reader Con it'a a three and a half hour, a little bit less. I think it was a three hour drive and she called me up with a different accent every time pretending in character to be somebody who was calling me for an interview or a newspaper clip - Kaelyn:30:53   Or somebody at the convention, you know - Rekka:30:55   BUt it was funny because you, you were so in character and I'm like, who is this person that just calls me up out of the blue and asks me to tell them. Kaelyn:31:02   Why are you laughing at me? Rekka:31:04   People don't - Kaelyn:31:04   You don't laugh at people that want you talk to you. Rekka:31:07   So I would be giggling awkwardly and Kaelyn would be like, I don't understand what's going on. Kaelyn:31:12   Is there something funny happening. Is this a humorous book? Rekka:31:15   So Kaelyn's Scottish accent, Russian accent. And what was the last one? Kaelyn:31:22   Did I do? Rekka:31:22   Transylvanian or something? Kaelyn:31:24   I thought I did my Bronx accent. Rekka:31:26   I don't think you did in New York. Kaelyn:31:27   North Jersey? Rekka:31:28   No. No. Kaelyn:31:29   Okay. I don't remember. Rekka:31:31   I, I would have given you like credit for authenticity based on your location. We had a few different accents going on. Some, some were more distracting than others. And - Kaelyn:31:44   But see that's a test because things will be distracting us. Rekka:31:47   The, yes, exactly. So she made me not memorize but sort of outline my - Kaelyn:31:54   Bullet points. Rekka:31:55   My book's marketing in my head so that when she asked me about it each time I told her it was different. Kaelyn:32:00   And it was natural. It wasn't, uh. Rekka:32:03   You want it conversational because otherwise it sounds like it wasn't a script that you had memorized otherwise it's a book report or something. Kaelyn:32:09   Exactly, yeah. It's um, it's your back copy. So, um, you know, but the whole point of that is like, it sounds silly but you need to practice because you're not gonna realize how hard it is. I think everyone thinks like, oh well, whatever. I just have this book. It's like, uh, you know, I mean, okay, cool. Tell me about it. You have 30 seconds. Rekka:32:29   And in fact that's a good point because many authors when they tell you about their book, and hopefully they've learned this by the time they've queried an agent and submitted it to a publisher, but many of them will just start telling you the plot from point a to point z. Kaelyn:32:46   And you don't want to do that. Rekka:32:47   That is not a book pitch. Kaelyn:32:48   No. Rekka:32:48   That is, that is going to make people eyes glaze over and they are going to walk away going, what the heck was that? Even if your book is amazing. Kaelyn:32:56   Yeah. A book pitch is plot, character, setting are the three. If you have 30 seconds, that's kind of what you need and you're thinking of this going like, okay, so I need a sentence for each of those. No, they should all work together and maybe you will need, yeah, maybe you only need a couple of words just for the setting. It's set on a distant planet. It's in a hidden fairy forest. It's, don't, I'm gonna say this, don't overcomplicate it. Rekka:33:24   Right. The things you think are important to your book and really fascinating probably don't matter so much in the pitch. Kaelyn:33:31   That is, that's actually a very good point because this is something I come up with with authors a lot. Your favorite part of the book does not mean that that's the important part of the book. Rekka:33:41   Or it's not the part that's going to sell it. Kaelyn:33:42   Exactly. Rekka:33:43   So be careful about like how much you try to jam into your pitch. Just make it about the fascinating things. And some people hate comps, some people love comps, but try to have some comps on hand. And by comps we mean you know like titles that you can compare your book to that are going to express what a person might be able to expect when they open it up. Kaelyn:34:06   So one last point and then I promise we'll stop talking about this because like we have planned to talk about pitches, but like this is really, you know, it is important - Rekka:34:16   And this is a good moment. This is like you've got some downtime. This is really ideal time to be fixing. Kaelyn:34:22   I know that this is not something everyone does wakes up and knows how to do, but learn how to read a situations and be self-aware. Um, if you're at a convention and there's a bunch of people all just hanging out talking, you know, you might go, go around and introduce yourself or you might say, yeah, since I've got this book coming out and like, oh, what's it about? Give your pitch and then stop. Rekka:34:48   Yeah. Kaelyn:34:48   Because chances are no one else really, I mean, unless people are asking you questions about it, the thing is that if they really want to know, they're going to go buy the book and read it, but just be self aware, don't corner people and make them listen to you. Don't, um, you know, people that are clearly just not interested or being polite because here's the thing, you don't want to be the person that got the reputation for, oh my God, they would not stop talking. Rekka:35:15   Oh, here they come. Kaelyn:35:15   And I was like, um, it's, and it's a hard thing to do sometimes. Just, you know, reading people, engaging what they're, you know, thinking and feeling about what's happening. But, um, it's important because you don't want that reputation of like, oh my God, they just would not shut up, crap. They're coming. We gotta, we gotta get outta here. So just be self aware. Um, Rekka:35:39   If someone introduces you at bar con to an agent and you need an agent, then absolutely have your pitch like fluid and ready to go. And that's a good point. At Bar con, you might have some alcohol in you. So you also want to practice your pitches when you might be stumbling over your tongue a little. Kaelyn:35:55   Yeah and also you want to practice your self-restraint when you have some alcohol in you. Rekka:36:00   And cut your alcohol with some club soda or maybe don't drink alcohol if it's not good for you, Kaelyn:36:07   Just be self aware, just you know, know what, know what you're going to be like. Rekka:36:12   Yeah. Kaelyn:36:13   In sobriety and otherwise. Rekka:36:15   Yeah. So be realistic. And if it's going to impact your career negatively, then skip it. Kaelyn:36:19   Yep. Rekka:36:19   You can still hang out at Bar Con and sip a cranberry juice. So um so conferences, that's where we were getting at was are great way to um, hone this skill, your sales, but also build your community of support. So now your book is here. Your blog posts are out. They give you, like when those blog posts get launched at the, um, the sites that are hosting them, that's a great opportunity to retweet and share it and pitch your book again to people on Twitter, um, in a natural way because you have new content to deliver them. Um, you know, leading up to launch, you can post about how excited you are because genuine enthusiasm is going to be welcomed versus you know, just book pitch, book pitch, book pitch, book pitch. And so your book is out and what does that Book Launch Day like? Kaelyn:37:13   Pretty much like any other day, any other Tuesday except you feel like something should be happening. Rekka:37:20   So you might be tempted to reload your browser, you know, to see like are people talking about me? Check your phone a lot, you're checking your email a lot, looking on Amazon, watching the ranks, like try to have something else to do that day. Maybe if you can make plans to go to an aquarium or you know, like if you want to take the day off, you can, if, if going to work will keep you busy and distracted and won't give you opportunities to access like that might be the best place you can be. It's tough. Kaelyn:37:50   Yeah. I think, um, it's, it's funny because I'm never quite sure what authors think is going to happen that day, but here's the, like, you're not going to have like a bunch of reviews flood in on your first day. You're not going to have like immediate sales numbers. You're not, there's really not a lot that can happen now in the coming weeks. And I would say even for the first week, there really isn't a lot that's going to be, it's going to be happening, Rekka:38:16   Right. Except you do want to see that you are present. Yes. Like you know that the marketing has continued that um, you're talking about it on social media. Like you, hopefully you have the same sort of activity from your publisher. Um, any PR is going out. If there are articles about the release, you know, depending on how big it is, then you know, these are opportunities to share and keep that momentum going. And if you have some friends with their own audiences who have read the book, you can ask them to also, you know, help you out and tweet about how much they loved it, if they had a chance to read it. Kaelyn:38:52   Exactly. So, um, yeah, so that's, I mean, that's debut day and there really is not much to it unfortunately. Rekka:39:00   And the best thing you could do is work on book two. Kaelyn:39:02   Yeah. Rekka:39:02   And you know, try to avoid good reads, try to um, you know, stay away from the reviews because they're not for you. Take care of yourself, be nice to yourself and don't hinge like your entire experience of being an author on what happens on that day. Kaelyn:39:20   Yeah. So after release - Rekka:39:22   So following your book launch, you will probably have some appearances to make at either libraries or bookstores. Um, indie bookstores. This is a great way to get them on board with your book, by having your events at their location because, um, they're going to expect that you're going to draw some audience. It's stuff that they can entice their, uh, customers to the store with. But, um, so that bookstore is happy with you. You've brought local people. Um, on that note, if you are trying to plan as many things as possible, you don't want to cannibalize the book sales by going to two places that are really close together. They're not going to appreciate it and you know, going to have a weird awkward quiet visit with one or both of those. So, um, try to drum up as many, you know, people that you can bring along, they'll try to drum up their customers to come along, things like that. Um, you have to expect that one or more of these might be a bit of a dud. You know, if you are just trying to find any place that you can get into. Kaelyn:40:26   Keep your expectations, realistic too. Rekka:40:28   Yeah. Because you don't know what the audience for your genre is going to be like at any of these locations. So it might be crickets at some of them and that's okay. You know, eventually someone always tends to wander in and - Kaelyn:40:40   And just be like, hey, so what's your deal? Rekka:40:43   Well, sometimes they know and other times they're there because you're an author that succeeded and they are somebody who wants to write a book. So that happens too. But, um, yeah, so you've got maybe some podcasts appearances is that are, uh, broadcasting as, or after your book comes out, you want to keep sharing those, some interviews, um, on blogs or you know, if you're lucky radio or something like that, get in touch with your local papers. Maybe they can announce your book launch. Um, so you have, um, one book out, chances are you've got another one in your contract or an option. And if you're a writer, you know, chances are you like doing that. So once the dust settles, and honestly, if you can make a habit of doing it in the midst of chaos, that's even better. But keep working on your writing. Kaelyn:41:29   Well, I'm going to qualify this by saying that you're probably working on your next book before the first one's out. Rekka:41:34   Yes, definitely. Kaelyn:41:35   Um, so if nothing else, if you're overwhelmed and you're worried, keep working on your craft, keep like working on the thing that made you an offer. Rekka:41:46   Now you will see other authors on Twitter and around talking about how awful the second book is. And so since that's such a topic, I think we can save that for another discussion. Kaelyn:41:57   Oh, definitely. Yeah. Rekka:41:58   There's a lot that goes into focusing on writing a book when one is coming out. Um, as we mentioned, all the distractions of copy edits coming in and stuff like that. So I think we could talk about that for another half an hour or - Kaelyn:42:08   No, that'll be, that's another episode. No problem. Rekka:42:11   Not making this one run on any longer than it already has. But yeah, I mean, you're not alone in this, and there are lots of other authors who have already gone through this. There are authors who are going through it at the exact same stage that you are right now, and there are authors who are looking forward to going through this, figure out the best way for you to cope with the strange silences and the process. Kaelyn:42:29   Have a list of things that you can be working on, things that like your blog posts pit, practicing your pitch, and when you're feeling lost, confused and directionless, pull out that list and go, all right, I'm going to spend some time on this thing. Rekka:42:44   Right. Kaelyn:42:45   Um, and just in life, I find that generally helps. Rekka:42:49   But, um, knowing what the next thing that you need to do is sometimes a really clarifying thing that can just break the mood that you start to fall into the malaise of like, oh, am I good enough? Like you're, whether or not you're good enough and someone bought your book, so you are please, you are good enough, like repeat it into the mirror to yourself, but um, you know, break through that by just getting some work done. Kaelyn:43:12   Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, um, I mean I think that's the episode. Rekka:43:16   That was more than the episode. Kaelyn:43:19   Yeah. Rekka:43:19   Sorry, folks. Kaelyn:43:20   Um, so, you know, hoped that was informative or maybe a little, a reassuring hopefully. But, um, you know, it's good. It's good stuff to hear. Rekka:43:29   And if this has, um, brought up more questions or anything like that, please reach out to us on Twitter, ask us some, you know, refining the questions and we can reapproach this topic with more specific things in mind in the future. Kaelyn:43:42   Exactly. Yeah. So, um, thank you everyone for listening and, uh, where can they find us on the socials? Rekka:43:46   They can find us @wmbcast on twitter and instagram and also at patreon.comWMBcast. And if you could leave a rating or review and the apple podcast app, we'd really appreciate that and we'll read those in a future episode and we will. Kaelyn:44:03   Cool Rekka:44:03   Alright. Thanks everyone. We will talk to you in two weeks. Kaelyn:44:07   Two weeks. Uh, wait. Well what's happening? Rekka:44:11   Hold up a minute. Kaelyn:44:11   So, um, in two weeks, our next episode is starting Submissions September, we're doing one episode a week for September, so you're getting four instead of just two like, you know - Rekka:44:22   Potentially five. Kaelyn:44:23   Potentially five. Yes, we have to- Rekka:44:25   Possibly you are going to get five episodes. Kaelyn:44:27   So we're covering pretty much all of this steps leading up to submitting your work and then also the process of doing that. So, um, we, when we were organizing, and I know it doesn't sound like it, but we do organize and you know, try to plan and think about things. Rekka:44:46   How dare you? Kaelyn:44:46   Um, but when we were kind of putting our thoughts together on submissions related topics, we were like, you know what, I feel like it's doing a disservice not to do all of these at once. And then we're like, well that would take two months. So that's a long time to go through all of these. So we decided we're going to do Submissions September, like I said, four episodes, one every Tuesday, possibly five episodes depending on, on how this some things a workout and we're just going to cover the topics related to that. And um, so we're excited to do it and I think it's, I think it's a good idea. Tell us it's a good idea. Rekka:45:24   Well, yes. And at this point we are about to start recording it long before you're going to hear those episodes. So if you've asked us questions about submissions already, thank you so much. We had definitely taken those into consideration. But um, if you are listening to this episode at the end of August, then, um, all these episodes are already recorded. So if you have extra questions, go ahead and, and start shouting them at us. But if we don't answer them during September, no, it's just because of the timeline being what it is. And we'll get to them in another episode. Kaelyn:45:56   If we get enough questions, we can do another episode, that's just a wrap up. Rekka:46:01   Yeah, absolutely. Six episodes in one month. Why not? Kaelyn:46:04   Hey, you know, we have nothing but time, right? Rekka:46:08   Yeah. Time is great. Kaelyn:46:09   So, um - Rekka:46:10   Speaking of those book launches though, in the, in our next episode - Kaelyn:46:14   Oh yes, yes. Rekka:46:16   I would like to entice you all. Kaelyn:46:18   So the first episode of submission, September is coming out on September 3rd, which also happens to be the book launch of "Salvage". Rekka's Second Book Day. Very excited. Rekka:46:29   Or this awesome person, RJ Theodore. Kaelyn:46:33   Yeah, I've heard her like, she's fine. Rekka:46:36   Sheis exciting and she is magnificent and she is - Kaelyn:46:39   The embodiment of all things right and good to in the world. Yes. Um, no Rekka's second novel in the Peridot Shift Trilogy, "Salvage" is being released that day. So, um, to celebrate that, uh, we're going to give away three copies of "Salvage" to, uh, I don't know. What do you want to make the stakes here? Rekka:46:58   So the first three people to share this episode to their friends on Twitter and use the Hashtag #sporkpunkwieldersunite can choose from an ebook or a printed copy depending on how you prefer to read, because we definitely want you to read the book and, um, let us know if you've read "Flotsam" too, because if you haven't, there's, there's some spoilers in "Salvage" for "Flotsam", it's a one arc. Kaelyn:47:23   Right. And print copy, you know, Rekka, will sign it, obviously. Rekka:47:26   Obviously. Kaelyn:47:26   Yeah. So, um, so yeah. Okay. That's our episode. Uh, so September, Submission, September, get ready for that. We're excited. Uh, release of "Salvage". There's a lot of S-s coming up here. Rekka:47:36   It's a very alliterative uh, sesserrating civil, months. Kaelyn:47:41   So, yeah. Well, thank you everyone again, so much for listening and we'll see you in September. We're going to be a, we're going to be pretty tired. Rekka:47:48   Yeah. If we, we, you know, the episodes will go live. We may not be alive. Kaelyn:47:53   Yeah. So just remember us fondly. All right, thanks everyone. Rekka:47:56   Take care.  

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! This week, it’s the Dreaded Money Episode! That’s right, we’re talking about advances, royalties, and how you get your money. This seems to be a bit of a taboo topic for a lot of writers, but it shouldn’t be! You wrote something and you should get paid for it! Rekka and Kaelyn go through all that, talk about some personal experience, and spend way too much time listening to Kaelyn obsess about a pond and debate the merits of pajamas as every day wear.   We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and descriptions of any recurring bad dreams you’ve had since watching that trailer for the “Cats” movie. We hope you enjoy We Make Books!   Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast       Kaelyn:00:00   Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of the, We Make Books podcast, a podcast about writing, publishing and everything in between. Rekka:00:06   I'm Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Rekka:00:10   Um, I'm Kaelyn. I'm the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. Rekka:00:14   So acquisitions, editing, writing, like we're all in this to make that cheddar, right? Kaelyn:00:22   We're talking about money today, people, this is, this is that episode. Uh, we are talking about money. Rekka:00:29   Yes. So we mentioned it in the episode. It's a bit of a thing, like it feels like it's taboo. It feels like, how dare you presume to even approach me with these questions? It feels like it's - Kaelyn:00:43   It's scary Rekka:00:43   I'm creative. How am I supposed to talk about money? Because if I'm talking about money and thinking about money, then I've sold out like, so we want to just, we get into that and this episode is full of as much information as we could broadly discuss. We, um, are not lawyers. We are not financial advisors. Both:   01:02   [laughs] Rekka:01:02   We do not want you to follow every word and, um, have a bad experience. But we did want to just approach all these subjects that most people feel that they can't talk about or that, um, it's, it's above them. It's not their business or anything like that. It is your business because you're a writer. Kaelyn:01:24   It's absolutely your business. Rekka:01:24   When you sign a contract, that contract is to sell the rights to print your book. So if you are selling the rights, then there should be an exchange of currency as part of that sale. And so where is it? Who determines it? Where does it come from? When do you get it? We're going to go into all of that in this episode and it's chock full of information. And again, we apologize when the episodes run a little long, but I think this is one that maybe everybody needs to hear. Kaelyn:01:46   Yeah, this was, um, we tried to cover as much as we could, um, in the time that we had, um, like Rekkaa said, this is not something you should be embarrassed about talking about. You're at the end of the day you're, you made a thing, you should get paid for the thing Rekka:02:03   And information is empowering. So take a listen. Kaelyn:02:06   Take a listen. Rekka:02:07   Empower yourself and then go out there and yes - Kaelyn:02:10   And sell that book, dammit. Rekka:02:12   All right. Kaelyn:02:12   All right. Enjoy the episode, everyone. Thanks Music:02:14   [Intro music] Rekka:02:28   So that was shocking to me Kaelyn:02:28   Do you not walk around in your pajamas? Rekka:02:31   Only to the bathroom to change. Kaelyn:02:33   Really? Rekka:02:33   Yeah. Like because of the cat hair cause I don't want to getting into the bed. Kaelyn:02:37   Oh, okay. I know I, I spend most of my time in my pajamas. Rekka:02:40   I would if I had no pets. Kaelyn:02:42   Fair. Are we recording? Rekka:02:44   Oh absolutely. Kaelyn:02:44   Of course we're recording. Yeah, we're recording already. [laughs] But, I mean, but like this place is so freaking picture-esq. You can't not hang out in your pajamas a little bit. Rekka:02:54   [laughs] Kaelyn:02:54   And like take it all in. Rekka:02:57   I have started setting aside couch clothes, so like lounge wear for the couch, but it's not my pajamas so that I'm not tracking cat hair into the bedroom. But I keep forgetting to change into them when I get comfortable. Kaelyn:03:11   Okay. Rekka:03:11   We're working on it. Kaelyn:03:11   'Cause, I mean this place is just - Rekka:03:12   Plus they're flannel pants and it's June now I need a new pair of pants for lounging. Kaelyn:03:20   This place is just, it's so picturesque. It's disgusting. Rekka:03:21   And by this place, of course, we are talking about the utility closet at Parvus Press. Rekka:03:25   Yeah, no, we're recording from the, uh, the containment unit records writing shed in her backyard, which backs up to a beautiful pond with trees and turtles and - Rekka:03:38   Tadpoles. Kaelyn:03:38   We saw some tadpoles. I was advised there could be snakes and disappointed that I didn't find one. Rekka:03:42   But you did find mint. Kaelyn:03:43   I did find mint. Yeah. So just, I'll put a picture of it up. It's so disgustingly serene. Um, but yeah. Anyways, so, uh, welcome to another episode, everyone. Rekka:03:53   Speaking of serenity. Kaelyn:03:54   Yeah. Serenity. This is not a serene one . Rekka:03:56   This is our capitalist episode. Kaelyn:03:58   This is a stressful episode for a lot of people. We're talking today about money. Rekka:04:03   Like specifically, can I have some? Kaelyn:04:04   And how you get it? Rekka:04:06   Can I please Kaelyn can have some. Kaelyn:04:08   Sure. Of course. Rekka:04:10   Kaelyn just handed me a quarter, everybody. Kaelyn:04:11   [laughs] Um, yeah. Today we're talking about money and um, how you get it and how much you're entitled to and um, what you should be getting. Rekka:04:23   And when you get it. Kaelyn:04:24   When you get it. Exactly. Yeah. Um, so we wanted to do this episode because this is a bit of a dirty subject type thing. Rekka:04:34   Taboo Kaelyn:04:35   Taboo is probably a better word. Yeah. Um, and I think it's something a lot of people are nervous about that they don't want to ask about. They don't want to discuss. Rekka:04:43   Like we put out the call for questions. Kaelyn:04:45   Yeah. Rekka:04:46   And crickets. And I think everyone is afraid to be the person that asks that question. Kaelyn:04:50   Exactly. Yeah. Rekka:04:51   Or they think we aren't going to really get into the details on those. Kaelyn:04:56   It's - Rekka:04:56   Unfortunately, some of them we can't because it's going to depend a lot on your contract. Kaelyn:05:04   Yes. And we will flag those areas certainly. But, um, I think also there's the taboo around it because a lot of people have this mentality of I'm writing because I want to create, I'm writing because of this. That's awesome. But also you get paid for this and you should be aware of what you're getting paid for and be knowledgeable about it because this is important. You put a lot of work into something, you should make money off of it, you know? So anyway, we decided we wanted to, uh, to talk about that and hopefully provide some guidance with, um, you know, how things like advances and royalties work - Rekka:05:37   Or at least make it a little less scary. Kaelyn:05:38   A little less scary. Yeah. That should, that's a theme for this whole podcast: making writing less, a little less scary. Um, so we're going to start off with, you know, just some as we usually do with these kinds of things, some definitions. What, uh, what different things are, uh, kind of take you through what you can expect in terms of advances, royalties, how these things work. Um, we won't get too much into that because that's more of a contract specific thing. Rekka:06:08   But there are some things that people just - Kaelyn:06:11   There's some broad, yeah. Rekka:06:12   Don't have a general understanding of even. Kaelyn:06:15   Exactly. Yeah. Because it's a very intimidating process and going, going online and reading things about it is not always Rekka:06:23   helpful. And the articles are old or the people who are willing to put articles online about it are vanity presses who shouldn't be giving you advice anyway. Kaelyn:06:32   And you know what actually I did just because I wanted to see what was online before we did this episode. I spent some time on Google and it's something interesting I found is that not even the good articles, the ones that have good information in there helpful, none of them talk about ebooks. Rekka:06:45   Mmm, yeah Kaelyn:06:47   It's all print. Rekka:06:48   Yeah. And as two very different things. Kaelyn:06:51   Yeah. And you know what's interesting is the articles were like recent enough that like they should have like as doing ebooks should have been a thing. Um, because that's very confusing. Anyway, uh, we're gonna walk through, you know, what you can expect in terms of how the royalties work. Uh, we're going to talk about how money actually trickles down to the authors and then talk about, you know, what payments look like and what forms they're going to come in and where they'll be coming from. So, um, dive in. Rekka:07:22   Yeah, let's just start. Kaelyn:07:23   All right. So, uh, advances. Rekka:07:26   Yes, please. Kaelyn:07:26   Yes, Rekka? Rekka:07:28   Can I have one? [laughter] Yeah. So an advance is the word. Um, used in the definition, it is an advanced payment that you get on the assumption that you would eventually earn this through the royalty agreement that you settled on in your contract. So this is a payday loan without the interest rate. Kaelyn:07:55   Well ... Rekka:07:55   Yes. that sounds awful. But like you know what I'm trying to say, you are getting money now that you will have to earn later. Kaelyn:08:02   Yes. It's, it is an advance of money that you are going to earn. Rekka:08:06   Right. Okay. I said have to earn, we'll get into actually that too I think. Kaelyn:08:11   Think of it as here's a check for money you are going to make in the future and that um, the publisher will typically give you that right when you sign. Um, usually what happens is an advance might be broken up into two or more pieces, two standard, you know, usually half when you sign half when you finish the manuscript, I'm very rarely are they going to give you the whole thing at once. It's usually half now, half when you're finished, there might be, you know, there could be other weird little things in there about how they're broken up, but every, you know, one of the running themes for this episode is going to be, it's depends on your contract. Rekka:08:47   Yes. Kaelyn:08:48   Typical though half now half when you finish. An advance is different from royalties obviously. Rekka:08:55   In a way. Kaelyn:08:57   Yes. Rekka:08:57   It's the more, like royalties are based on actual sales numbers. The advance is royalties that are based on expectations and prophecy. Kaelyn:09:10   Yes. Um, typically what publishers do when we're trying to decide what an advance is going to be is we go into the secret room, consult the blind mages, provide the necessary sacrifice, they gaze into their crystal ball and come up with a number for us. Rekka:09:28   Mmmhmm. Kaelyn:09:28   You of course have to take into account whether or not you're doing this on a full moon because that can make the numbers a bit squiffy. Um, no and we'll uh, we'll talk about um, numbers and percentages later in the episode. We kind of just want to get through royalties and advances and what they are at this point. Rekka:09:47   So, so it isn't the full phrase is advance on royalties. Kaelyn:09:51   Yes Rekka:09:51   So it is technically royalties, but it's not in the sense that you'll get royalties later. Will you? We'll be able to see this is a royalty for the sales of books. Kaelyn:10:00   This is a uh royalty for sales that you are going to make in the future. Rekka:10:06   Right. Kaelyn:10:07   Um, if you want to, I work in finance. If you want to put it in those terms, it's a futures commodity. Rekka:10:12   Fair enough. Yeah. It's, well, it's, it's almost a good faith payment from the publisher. Kaelyn:10:17   Absolutely. That's what it is. Yeah. And it's also, it is a, hey look, you did all of this work and you still probably have about a year and a half minimum to go until you start making money on this. So here's money up front for the work that you already did. Rekka:10:33   Yeah. Kaelyn:10:34   And, um, we can, you know, we won't get too much into like what advances should be used for because really that's, that's - Rekka:10:43   Your business. Kaelyn:10:43   It's your business. And it depends on what, you know, what you need to use it for. But, um, you know, it's a payment for, you've already done a lot of work. Have some money. Rekka:10:54   Yeah. Um, if I were to offer advice on spending the advance, I would say treat it as a payment toward your author business and use it as you would as the owner of that author business. Kaelyn:11:07   Yeah. Rekka:11:07   But not everyone has the luxury to separate that from their, their household family. Kaelyn:11:12   There's absolutely nothing wrong with however you want to spend your advance, assuming you're not blowing it on like jetpack futures. Rekka:11:20   Yeah. Well, that's fun. Kaelyn:11:23   Yeah. Rekka:11:24   If you're, if you're a gambler, risk taker maybe you don't need the money and you're insulted by the commoditization of your novel and you're like, you know what? I'm going to spend this on something that will never ever pay out. Kaelyn:11:35   That's fair. Rekka:11:36   Really? Rekka:11:37   Yeah. 100% your prerogative, however - Kaelyn:11:40   Short of setting it on fire, just, you know. Um, so royalties like Rekka was saying are, that's what you're actually, when you're getting paid on your book, when the book has sold and you get money from the book being sold. Royalties are tricky and I think they're scary. Rekka:12:00   Mm. It's, it's spreadsheets is its - Kaelyn:12:04   It's numbers. Rekka:12:04   Math and it's a whole lot of different numbers and calculations based on at least five different moving targets at all times. Kaelyn:12:14   Yeah. So when we talk about royalties, I'm going to break this down into two different groups, which is print books and ebooks because royalties for each of those work differently. Rekka:12:24   And we should say that we're talking North American US. Kaelyn:12:26   Yes. Rekka:12:27   In terms because things may be different when to you cross out of international boundaries Kaelyn:12:32   Yes. So for print books it's going to be exclusively, you know, things that are sold in the US where, I'm not saying it's different everywhere. I'm just saying I can't guarantee that it's not. Rekka:12:46   Mmmhmm. Kaelyn:12:47   Print books. Typically authors are going to get paid on what's called the list price. And that is if you flip the book over in the back, it should have a price on it. Rekka:12:56   Yeah. It'll be associated in the ISBN code. It'll be probably printed beside it or inside the cover. Or if it's a hard cover with a slip case, there's a dollar sign there. There's usually a decimal point. Kaelyn:13:08   Exactly. Rekka:13:09   And that is your list price. Kaelyn:13:13   So when you get a royalty for that book, let's say the book sells for $10 just for the sake of round numbers and your royalty rate is 10% you're getting a dollar when that book sells. Print books, it should always be the list price that's still standard for print books. Um, royalty rates for print books may be a little lower, but they are more expensive than ebooks. Rekka:13:44   So when you say they're lower, you're saying they're lower than the royalty rate you're going to get for ebooks because ebooks don't require things like printing costs - Kaelyn:13:53   The overhead on ebooks is very minimal - Rekka:13:55   - and there's no warehousing them, there's very little chance of returns that do happen. Kaelyn:14:01   Rarely ebooks, ebooks get returned. Rekka:14:03   But I'm, the book seller is not going to buy a large number of ebooks and then potentially return half of them. Kaelyn:14:10   Yeah. So that's the most straight forward explanation. With print books, it's your royalty percentage off the list price. Ebooks, however, are a whole nother monster. I'm going to use Amazon as sort of the base example here, but most of the other ones kind of work the same way. Um, you know, everyone's a little bit different but, Rekka:14:35   But Amazon's kind of set the rules and everyone else is - Kaelyn:14:38   Yeah. And most of us get our books through Amazon now. Rekka:14:43   Mmmhmm. Kaelyn:14:43   Um, like by a lot. Rekka:14:44   Yeah. Kaelyn:14:45   So what's happening with ebooks is there's no print book, obviously. So overhead is nothing compared to print books. Rekka:14:55   It's server space. Kaelyn:14:56   They're sending you a file. Rekka:14:57   Yeah. Kaelyn:14:58   Essentially. So Amazon is taking their cut right off the top because when you're selling print books, the bookstore is buying the book and keeping the profits from the sale of the book. Amazon is getting their cut after the book sells. So your royalty rate on an ebook on Amazon is probably going to be either 70% or 35, depending on if it meets the criteria for Amazon to put it at 70. And here's the thing, most books do. Um, it's, it has to do with pricing length. Um, you know, those kinds of things. Rekka:15:37   You're deliverable file size. Kaelyn:15:39   Exactly. Rekka:15:39   Even if you have a lot of illustrations or photographs in your ebook, you're going to have less money coming in because Amazon's going to charge you for the space because their distribution to kindles is free for the user, the reader. Kaelyn:15:53   Yup. Rekka:15:53   So they're going to charge you if you use a larger than standard amount of data to send to that. Kaelyn:16:01   Yeah, so Amazon is taking their cut right off the top of the sale. So again, let's say your book is selling for $10 on Amazon and you're getting a 70% royalty. Well in this case your publisher is getting a 70% royalty on that. Rekka:16:17   So we'll use the word publisher when we are talking about royalties coming directly from an Amazon sale. If you're an Indie, like your self published, you are the publisher. So we're talking about you directly. If you are an author signed with a traditional publisher or a small press then they are the publisher. And when we say 70% royalty, we're talking about what is coming back from Amazon. It's very unlikely that 70% is the royalty in your contract. Kaelyn:16:46   No, it's not. Both:   16:49   [laughter] Rekka:16:49   Hey, look, we can't speak for everyone, but we're going to assume that yours is - Kaelyn:16:53   It's not - Rekka:16:54   Significantly lower than that. So, um, so yeah, a book sells on Amazon for $10 and a 70% royalty goes to the publisher is getting $7 and Amazon has taken their $3 in, they're happy and then then Kaelyn:17:06   And then the publisher is paying you based on your royalty rate off that $7. So it's an extra step. Um, although technically if you look at the bookstore, it's really not. It's actually a little more straight forward. Rekka:17:20   Yeah. Kaelyn:17:21   Um, so that's how you're getting your royalty rate from ebooks. And that is the easiest way I can sum it up. There are a lot of factors in how Amazon prices and sells books. They have all of these algorithms, which this is something a lot of people don't know. Amazon can change how much your book is being sold for. If they think that there's someone that like maybe they've clicked on it like three times in the past two days and they haven't bought it, Amazon's algorithm will knock it down, say a dollar. Rekka:17:51   Right. Kaelyn:17:51   And see if they can get you to pick it up and then guess what your book sold for nine bucks instead of 10. So Amazon, Amazon can take your book and reprice it for the - Rekka:18:03   Read that fine print when you sign up for KDP. Kaelyn:18:06   Yeah. So that is just kind of the definitions and the examples of advances and royalties. Um, so you're probably wondering now, well, how do I get these numbers? How do I know all of this stuff? As always, it's in your contract. Please read your contracts. I know they're long. I know they have absurd words in them. I know they're boring. Rekka:18:31   Go through them. Get a highlighter and highlight the numbers you're going to want to come back to reference. Kaelyn:18:36   Yes, yes. Rekka:18:36   Print out those pages. If your contract is digital and you know, pin them somewhere where you can get to them, where you can see like, this is my payments, this is my, um, royalty for this, this, these are the, uh rights I retained. These are the timelines at which my contract might revert back to me under certain conditions. So those are the kinds of things you want to at least be aware of those things. And you know, you don't have to memorize them but know where to find them. Kaelyn:19:06   Yeah, your contract will in all likelihood have a schedule in it that explains how your royalties work. Um, it's going to give you different amounts for ebooks and print, uh, maybe audio books. Um, if that's something that your publisher is doing, if you're getting an audio book. Um, one of the things that might have on there is a graduated royalty schedule. What this means is you're going to get different royalty rates based on the number of books you sell. And typically what will happen is the more books you sell, the higher your royalty rate gets. Now you're probably going, well, why don't they just give me the high one right off the bat. The publisher is trying to recoup the money they spent on the book. Rekka:19:53   Right. Kaelyn:19:54   So they're saying that if we get to, for instance, you know, 50,000 books, we've recouped everything that we spent. We want to pay you more now right on this. Rekka:20:06   Right. Kaelyn:20:06   So you might see like 10 - you know, books, one to 10,000 are at royalty rate X books, 10,001 to 25,000 are at royalty rate X plus one. Rekka:20:20   Right. Kaelyn:20:21   And they'll keep increasing. So what that means is the more books you sell, the higher your royalty rate is going to be. Not everyone does this. Rekka:20:29   Right. Kaelyn:20:30   But here's the thing with royalties and advances and contracts: everything's negotiable. Rekka:20:34   Yep. Kaelyn:20:35   So if you have an agent, there'll be the one handling that for you and they'll be trying to get you the best deal possible. Um, if you're doing it on your own, these are good things to know about cause it is a little scary and people don't like talking about money. Rekka:20:50   Right. And I can imagine that a lot of authors are afraid that if they try to negotiate on their contract that the offer will evaporate because they've been selfish. Or presumptive. Kaelyn:21:01   No. And you know, don't, don't think that, you know, if, especially if you feel like you're not getting the best deal, pushback. Don't, you know, if you get a good offer right off the bat and you're happy with it, there's nothing wrong with that. Take it and be happy with it. But if you feel like you're not getting quite what you wanted, have realistic expectations but also ask questions. Rekka:21:24   Right. Kaelyn:21:24   No one's going to be like, sorry you asked too many questions out the door. Um, you know, we talked about this before, if you have someone that can look at a contract for you, it's always a good thing to do that, especially when it comes to the money sections. Rekka:21:40   Yup. Kaelyn:21:40   Just make sure everything that you think you understand is what this actually says. Rekka:21:45   There are, um, author organizations out there that you can join and for the, um, the dues that you pay to those organizations, there might be some sort of access to a contracts lawyer as built in. So, you know, keep in mind that not all organizations are, you know, on are equivalent are, um, on the same level. But that is an option. Something you can look for that might cost you much less than a lawyer. Kaelyn:22:12   Yeah. Those are just good resources in general. Rekka:22:14   Plus any lawyers that they have are likely to be like contract, like publishing. Kaelyn:22:19   Yes. They'll know what they're looking at. Yeah. If nothing else in the contract, pay attention to the money part. There is nothing wrong with wanting to make sure that you're getting paid fairly and adequately. Rekka:22:32   But there's also know what your reasoning for going to a publisher is, and there may be things that you are far more like interested in tham negotiating the absolute best dollar amount. You may be the type to settle for a lower royalty but retain more of your rights for example. , Kaelyn:22:49   Yeah exactly. So every everything's a give and take with us and you know at some point we'll do another episode about contracts and rights and things, but for now we're - Rekka:22:58   But all of these, Kaelyn:22:59   They're all factors Rekka:23:00   decisions that you make in your, in your contract negotiation are going to affect your royalties and your advance going forward. Kaelyn:23:07   Exactly, yeah. So the next question you're probably wondering is, okay, so how, how and when do I get money? Rekka:23:16   [laughs] Right? Kaelyn:23:18   This is great. I've signed this contract, I've got, you know, a royalty schedule that I'm happy with. How and when am I going to get paid? So like we said right off the bat with your advance, you're probably gonna get half when you signed half when the book's done. So that's the advance. For the royalties you may not see a royalty check for a while. Rekka:23:39   Because you have to earn out that advance for the royalties start paying towards you. Kaelyn:23:43   Exactly. Rekka:23:43   So you may get royalty statements. You, you may not actually get legal tender until, well, you will not get legal tender until you earn out the royalty. It's a matter of what your royalty was versus how your book is selling versus um, you know, if you have multiple books and therefore like a joint accounting for example, between those books on your advance. So it's going to be a while, but it's not, it doesn't have to be years, but it may also be never. Lets you know, just to put it out there.   Kaelyn:24:18   Yeah. So what - Okay, let's say that your advance again for the sake of round numbers was $10,000. You need to earn $10,000 in royalties - Rekka:24:29   Those are those small percentages of the purchase prices Kaelyn:24:33   before you get a royalty check. Rekka:24:36   Right. Kaelyn:24:36   So as soon as you hit $10,000 in 1 cent, then you start getting paid on your royalties. Because remember what we said, the advance is payment on money you are going to make in the future. So now they're repaying the money that they already paid you to themselves. Rekka:24:55   It's a zero interest semi loan that's immediately forgiven from the publisher. Okay, here's the question that I can imagine to a lot of minds. If I don't earn back my advance, do I have to pay the difference back to the publisher? Kaelyn:25:11   No, you don't. And again, contracts, you know, check contracts, Rekka:25:14   Check your contract. Kaelyn:25:16   But - Rekka:25:16   there's probably something in there where if you don't give them the book you promised them you have to pay back the advance. Kaelyn:25:21   Yes. Rekka:25:21   That's in there. But you are receiving an advance on projected sales and it's the publisher's job to give you an advance that they believe that the y can support with book sales. Kaelyn:25:32   Yes. So if you don't earn out your advance, you will not have to pay back the advance. Let me go further and saying that if you sign a contract that says you have to pay back your advance, don't sign that. Rekka:25:48   Yeah. Don't, don't sign it in the first place. Yeah. If you receive a contract, if you see a contract, if you smell a contract run, that says - Kaelyn:25:57   You have to pay back your advance. And so no, you don't have to give back your advance. But let's, okay, so you have a $10,000 advance. Your book has now earned $10,000 in one cent. You're going to be getting a check for 1 cent. Rekka:26:11   It, depending on your contract, your, your publisher may have a minimum threshold - Kaelyn:26:15   Okay, yes - Rekka:26:15   - which you want to watch for too. Because if that minimum threshold is very high, you still won't see a check for awhile. Kaelyn:26:20   For a while. Yeah. Rekka:26:22   Um, you have a $10,000 advance at $10,000, 1 cent, you now are owed royalties by your publisher. Kaelyn:26:30   You are owed roylaties. Exactly. And if your book just keeps earning and earning past that, you will keep getting royalty checks. There isn't a cap on this. As long as your book is making money, you will keep getting royalty statements and checks. Rekka:26:43   Right. Kaelyn:26:44   Um, here's the thing though, you have to keep in mind how long it takes to get a book published. So even once you've signed the contract, it's probably going to be a year and a half before that book goes to press. Rekka:26:58   Right. Kaelyn:26:58   And then depending on the size of your royalty and depending on how quickly it sells, it could be a while before you start getting a check. Royalty checks. Um, depending on how long it takes to earn out your advance. The reason I'm saying this is don't bank on having money immediately from the book. Rekka:27:16   And since you can't predict the sales of your book, don't bank on it at all. Kaelyn:27:20   Yeah, that's, that's a good point. Rekka:27:21   You know, don't, don't plan on, I will have x amount in the next royalty check. There is no way to control that. There is no way to insure it yet. Kaelyn:27:30   So now Rekka brought up something interesting earlier that she just kind of threw out as an example but is a good quick note to talk about which is joint accounting for royalties. So let's go back and do that real quick. Rekka:27:42   So joint accounting is when you have a multi book contract with a publisher and it can be a duology, a trilogy, whatever, whatever number of books has been agreed upon and is covered by that single contract. Kaelyn:27:58   In the single contract. Rekka:27:59   It's not with options for the rest of the trilogy. It's this is for three books. Yes, for an example of a trilogy and then you have a total advance that they are going to break up per book and whatever that advanced payment schedule is. And in joint accounting you do not earn royalties until you have earned the entire advance out - Kaelyn:28:27   For the entire series Rekka:28:27   The entire series. Kaelyn:28:29   So it all depends on how the contract is written and laid out. Again, please read the contract. Rekka:28:37   Right. So your first book may sell to the point where you've earned out, as Kaelyn was saying, earned out the advance that you receive for that book. But depending on how your contract's written, you may be receiving those royalties against the total advance of whatever number of books is covered under that contract. So if your total advance for three books say is $30,000, if your contract is written as such, you won't get royalties even though the second book isn't out yet until you earn back the advance for all three books, all $30,000. And that's again, it's the language in your contract. That's why you want to have help looking at your contracts. Kaelyn:29:17   Yeah. So the base question, you know, when do I get a check or royalties check? Typically twice a year is pretty common. Um, you know, there's a, I, I do this, I actually deal with the calculating all the royalties, it is not easy, it is it's a process. So, uh, it is kind of easier to get a bunch of months all together and do them all at once. Rekka:29:39   Why don't you break down all the different moving pieces? Kaelyn:29:42   Oh God. Okay. Well, um, one of the things, so right off the bat, what you're going to have to do is gather all of the information from the different places that have sold your book. If you are a traditional publisher with a distributor, this is an insane process. It's, it is gathering a lot of information and it's just so many spreadsheets. And so you have to get all the information together and figure out how much did the book sell for what did we actually get paid on it. And then you got to check and make sure that's correct because I know this is shocking, Amazon occasionally makes mistakes. Rekka:30:20   No. Kaelyn:30:20   I know. Um, the print books are even trickier with that because you have to, you're looking at books that were purchased by a bookstore that may still be sitting in the bookstore and haven't been sold yet. Rekka:30:32   Yeah. Kaelyn:30:32   But for my purposes, that doesn't matter as long as the bookstore has it. That's what I'm most concerned about. Um, the next thing you have to do is go through and normalize everything. And with Amazon, they will sell your ebooks internationally and then it just all gets funneled through the one Amazon account. Um, like I said, I'm not going to get into the international stuff too much because, uh, with print books especially, it's very different. Amazon people can buy the book internationally, no problem. So, um, you have to go in and do all the currency conversions and normalize everything. Then you gotta take all this giant list of everything you've sold and break it out by author. Rekka:31:14   Right. Kaelyn:31:14   So now at Parvus we have, um, you know, authors with multiple books. So that - Rekka:31:20   Which might mean multiple contracts. Kaelyn:31:20   It might mean multiple contracts and multiple advances. So then you have to go and take that and figure out like, okay, Author X had, and you know a Y advance, they've earned Z, Both:   31:35   [laughs] Kaelyn:31:35   So on Rekka:31:38   Or just eat some alphabet soup Kaelyn:31:40   [laughs] So on this book, so I have to apply that amount to this book. But wait, then they sold this many of book Q and they earned that on it. And you get all of this information together, figure out how much money you owe to who, and then put together a royalty statement. Um, one of the things I'm going to, I'm going to stop here and I'm gonna toot Parvus's horn a little bit. We're very transparent. Um, we send detailed lists of sales. I don't think any one of our authors actually look at them. Rekka:32:14   That is not true. Kaelyn:32:15   Okay Rekka looks at them, which isn't surprising. Um, but like, you know, it's hundreds of lines on a spreadsheet and it's, we're, we're very upfront about this stuff. We want you to see here is the book that you sold on Amazon. Here's the rate Amazon game, and here's what your royalty percentages and it was in US dollars. And so it comes out to this amount. Um, but we know that everyone's not going to look at that. And if they do, it's not going to mean too much to them. So the other thing I put together is a royalty statement, which is you sold this many of this book this month, this many of this one. You earned this amount on each of them. Here's how many you've sold all time, and here's how many you have, how much money you've earned all time, and here's how much you've earned this quarter. We do ours quarterly. Um, and then we send the payment based on, you know, what they're owed for that month. Um, if you're still earning out your royalty, there'll be another little section from me down at the bottom that says, hey, here's what your royalty was. Here's how much you earned towards it this quarter. Here's how much you have left to go. So it's, it's summarized, you know, it's just a little thing. You should be getting those. Rekka:33:23   Yeah. Kaelyn:33:23   And I am shocked the number of authors I talked to that have never seen one, never seen one, and don't ask for one. Rekka:33:30   Yeah. Kaelyn:33:31   I can't believe sometimes the authors I talked to that don't know if they ever earned out their advance. You have to pay attention to this stuff and advocate for yourself. Because I'm not saying that publishing houses are trying to steal from you. It's that if you don't ask for it, they might not provide it because maybe they're like, oh, that's one less thing I have to do. Rekka:33:58   Mmmhmm. Kaelyn:33:58   But here's the thing, people make mistakes sometimes too. I mean, when you're dealing with this much information, you could, you know, a decimal point gets moved one direction to the other and it throws everything off. So pay attention to this stuff, ask for it, never feel embarrassed for asking for it. And if anyone tries to make you feel embarrassed for asking for it, push back on them. Rekka:34:18   Right. Don't and make sure if you want that it's in your contract that you can see the accounting. Kaelyn:34:24   Yes. Rekka:34:25   Again, the contract is a lovely piece of paper that - Kaelyn:34:28   Everything is negotiable. Rekka:34:29   Yeah. Kaelyn:34:30   Um, so that's, that's kind of what is going on in the other side. So dovetailing onto that, how does, how has this happen? How does the money get down to the author? Rekka:34:43   Um, they leave some quarters under your pillow. Kaelyn:34:46   No, at night we fly in and, you know, just deposit it, teeth are not - it's fine. We don't need the teeth anymore. Rekka:34:52   Um, you've already had your teeth knocked out. Kaelyn:34:56   The, the rundown is basically this, we start with the reader at the bookstore. Amazon. Rekka:35:01   An individual person makes a decision to purchase a book. Kaelyn:35:04   They picked it up or they looked at it online. They said, you know what, this sounds like something I want to read. I will give someone money for this. Rekka:35:10   Yes. Kaelyn:35:11   So - Rekka:35:11   And thank you for that. Kaelyn:35:14   [laughs] Um, it's a little different with bookstores and ebooks. So if they do it in a bookstore, they go, they pay the bookstore. Now the bookstore, if you are distributed, if you're through a traditional publisher that's distributed, the bookstore has already paid the distributor for the books. Rekka:35:32   Right. Kaelyn:35:33   So the publisher is getting their money from the distributer, the publisher then in turn calculates the royalties and the payments that have to go out. If you have a literary agent, your check is going to your agent first. Rekka:35:47   Right. Kaelyn:35:48   They're going to cash it, take their, you know, how, whatever their percentage is, their 15, and then the literary agent is going to write you a check for the remainder of it. Rekka:35:57   Right. Kaelyn:35:58   If you don't have a literary agent, the publisher should be sending the money right to you. Rekka:36:01   Yes. Kaelyn:36:02   For ebooks, same thing, you know, you're looking at the book, I like this, buy it on Amazon. Amazon is going to pay the publisher. Now you can have distributors through ebooks. Um not, you know, not uncommon, actually, fairly common. And again, so if that's the case, the Amazon is going to pay the distributor and then the distributor is going to give it back to the publisher. Rekka:36:31   And it still in that case, based on each individual sale, not like the bookstore situation where they're bought ahead of time. Kaelyn:36:39   It's not a list price, yeah. Um, so then it's the same thing. The publisher is going to calculate the royalties. If you have an agent, it goes to them first. If you don't, it goes to directly to the author. Um, what you're noticing along the way here is everyone is taking a little piece off of this. So you're starting with a pile and then everyone's taking a little bit of it and you, the author are the last person to get the pile. Rekka:37:02   However the pile comes to you. Kaelyn:37:06   Yes. Rekka:37:06   At no point, do you write anyone else a check. Kaelyn:37:08   Yes. The pile should, even if it's a smaller pile than when it started, the pile should be coming to you. Do not give anyone money. Just don't. Rekka:37:19   Yep. It's, it's not how this works. Yeah. Kaelyn:37:22   If you're self publishing, fine, then you have to pay for things. Rekka:37:25   Right. But again, that's you're not paying for, it's tricky to say what, what the difference is in terms of what you pay for as a self publisher, you will be paying contracted people to edit your work. You'll be paying contract and people to do your covers. Those are investments. Those do not come out of your royalties. So when it comes to the process of like, how do I make someone buy my book, there are things that you'll be paying for once the book is in bookstores that hopefully will result in a sale. But this is not like, hey, the distributor got returns and now you owe them $20. Kaelyn:38:11   Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that is, you know, how do I get paid? Way in the future and not as much as you think. Both:   38:22   [laughter] Kaelyn:38:22   Um, it's, it is a trickle down process. So if your book sells well eventually the money will be coming in. But again, even if it doesn't, no one should be you for your advance back. Rekka:38:36   Right. And I just want to emphasize, you know, everyone in this digital age where you can just upload a file to Amazon and get the biggest amount of royalty for the ebook sale as possible. People want to know why the publisher is taking such a big cut, et cetera. The people who take cuts are the people who are putting themselves at risk for the sale of your book. You have put yourself at risk if you're a self published author completely. It's all your risk. Kaelyn:39:05   Yeah, it's all you. Rekka:39:06   If you are going through a publisher, they have given you money in the form of the advance. They have paid for a distributor to print and warehouse books - W Kaelyn:39:15   hich by the way is not cheap. Rekka:39:19   Noooo. Um, it's not as expensive as it used to be for the printing, but the, I mean they kind of even it out and make up for the difference in probably the warehousing costs these days. Kaelyn:39:28   The margins on print books are not great. Rekka:39:31   Yeah. Kaelyn:39:32   Um, it is, it is not as expensive to print a book, especially a large group, batch of them as it used to be. It's still not cheap. Rekka:39:42   Right. So when you, and I'll go back to self publishing as the comparison for like the most you could expect to get for something. Um a self published author will be usually going through a print on demand service, which means that book is being printed one at a time, which means that book is as expensive to produce as possible. That book is, it's getting printed on a one off run. If you've ever taken something to um, you know, staples to have it printed and you notice that the price to have one copy is 10 cents, but by the time you're printing 500 pages, you're paying more like 6 cents a page. That's because the, the labor involved in printing one is higher than the Labor involved in printing a large quantity of the same thing. So when you are paying a distributor to print your book, you are saving money per book, but you are investing in advance to have them all printed at once. And that's why print on demand sort of like made self publishing blow up in a new level even that ebooks hadn't is that now you can just print what sells, which is great, but you are making less per Kaelyn:41:02   Yeah, you're not, I mean you are not making much on print, on demand box. Rekka:41:05   And even when you get the, the distributors, um, bulk price on printing, if you were to say pay out of pocket to fill your garage with hard copies of your book, you are still not making a large margin on those books. It's nothing compared to the margin you make on ebooks and digital. Kaelyn:41:26   Yeah. So um back to what Rekka was saying. You know, why is there so much constantly coming off of this? Everyone has expenses. Books are not cheap to make. Um, you know, I think we think like, oh well it's fine. It's a book. So like what's the big deal? You have to print it. Well, no, you have to pay the various editors - Rekka:41:50   There is a layout person and there's a copy editor. Kaelyn:41:53   Illustrator. There's the cover art. The marketing. Marketing is very expensive - Rekka:41:58   That it never goes away. Kaelyn:41:59   It never goes away, exactly. And which by the way, that's where a lot, that's a lot of the money that goes into this. Um, it is expensive to make a book. It's a lot of people involved and it's a far more complicated process than I think a lot of people realize. Rekka:42:17   Right. Kaelyn:42:27   So it's a whole other debate, you know, whether or not the publishers take too much off the top, but there is a reason for it because a lot of books don't always even recover their entire cost. The publishing companies are paying you, even when you know you've earned out your advance, that's money they already gave you. So then on top of that, you may earn about out your advance. The publisher may not recover everything they spent on the book. Rekka:42:50   RIght. Kaelyn:42:50   Everything is so subjective. You really, it just depends. Um, so I think that's, that's most of the, the technical side of things. Uh, one, one question we did kind of come across was, so if I'm, if I've got multiple offer offers, if I'm lucky enough to have multiple offers, do I just take the one that's offering me more money? Rekka:43:12   Which might be your inclination. Kaelyn:43:13   Yes. And my answer to that is maybe. Um, let's look at the contract, look at the contract and look at what you're getting out of it and look what you like before you even receive. Rekka:43:25   Like I would say it's maybe too late for some of our listeners now, sorry about that. I should have shown up before, but like before you start querying your book, have a goal in mind. Like what is your picture of success? Kaelyn:43:41   Yeah. Rekka:43:41   And your contract may not need to have as many zeros as possible for you to feel like you have successfully published a book. Kaelyn:43:51   Yeah. And think about when you're looking at the contract, what are they giving you in there? Like, okay, maybe they're not giving you as much of an advance as you were hoping, but do they have a lot, a good marketing plan? Do they have like a lot of time and money that they're going to dump into making sure people read your book because then that's gonna make you money. Rekka:44:14   Right. Kaelyn:44:14   Eventually. Um, if you're looking at this and going, you know, I just kind of want to get as much out of this as I can and get the book out there, then maybe you're more interested in a bigger advance. Um, it isn't, the point I'm at is a slight cautionary tale is don't immediately jump at the biggest dollar sign if you have multiple offers. Because some of it is also going to be like, okay, awesome. How much effort are they going to put into making sure this book continues to sell? Because in the longterm, that could be where you make your money. Rekka:44:53   Right. You could actually make more in your royalties after the advance than you make on the advance. One hopes that that's what's going to happen and you need a publisher who's interested in selling your book for the long run versus a publisher who's going to give it three weeks of attention after the release date and then move on. Kaelyn:45:09   Yeah. Rekka:45:10   If you have a publisher who is, you know, far more interested in, um, you know, using their back catalog for most of their income, then that's going to be a longer term game and you can - Kaelyn:45:26   And they'll want to market your book and make sure people still buy it. Yeah. Um, so, you know, just it's another, read the contract, be aware, but you know, decide what's important to you. There's no right or wrong answer there. It's just a matter of, like Rekka said, decide what your goal is, like what you want for this book. And don't be afraid to talk about money. Rekka:45:47   Right. Kaelyn:45:48   It's, you know, we set in the beginning of the episode, it's taboo. It's, you know, I think almost perceived as rude Rekka:45:56   Or if I care about money than am I really a creative person? Kaelyn:46:01   Yes Rekka:46:01   And well, I don't care if you feel like a creative person while you're negotiating a contract. Frankly - Kaelyn:46:08   You should be the embodiment of Rockefeller at that. Rekka:46:12   Yeah. Kaelyn:46:12   Go in there and be horrible. Rekka:46:13   And because your publisher may love books, but they're running a business. The bookstores love books, but they're running a business. The distributors love books, but they're running a business. You write books, but you're running a business.   Kaelyn:46:25   You as the author, you are your business, you are your own brand and advertising. You come along with this book. So don't be afraid to ask about these things. It's not insulting you're not - to be honest with you, on my end, when people ask me about it, I get relieved because now granted I work in finance, I work in business. So like we're very used to, you know, money talk. And it is funny because I go into like contract negotiations with clients, like it's talked about - Rekka:46:59   Nobody's afraid. Kaelyn:46:59   It's talked about like it's nothing. And it's like, look, I'm not saying, you know, you have to go in there with like the negotiator hat and mustache on, but - Rekka:47:07   Is there a negotiator hat and a mustache? Kaelyn:47:09   Oh yeah. I wear them to every meeting I go to. Rekka:47:12   We'll post a photo of that on Instagram. Kaelyn:47:17   But don't be afraid to talk about it and ask questions because also I know on my end that a lot of people that I'm working with, this might be the first time that they're kind of addressing this sort thing. And there's nothing wrong with not knowing. Your publisher is your partner. They're not there to take advantage of you. They're not going to lie. Rekka:47:36   They shouldn't, you know. Kaelyn:47:37   But they won't lie to you and give you bad information about these things. Don't be afraid to ask questions and don't be afraid to say, listen, I don't understand this. I don't want there to be a problem down the line and don't be afraid to talk about money. You are your product. You should get paid for what you've created. Rekka:47:57   Yep. Kaelyn:47:58   So, um, on that note, I think that's a good, good last. Rekka:48:02   Sure. Kaelyn:48:03   Sentiment to leave on. Rekka:48:04   And there's a lot of stuff. There's a lot of contract topics that we didn't get too far into because we do want to have at least one future episode on contracts. Kaelyn:48:12   Yeah, just contracts. Rekka:48:14   And so that will be where we'll do a deeper dive into where maybe you can look for opportunities to ensure that you're going to get as much as possible. But that's a whole other. Kaelyn:48:26   That's a whole other episode. So anyway, so how are we doing on time? Rekka:48:31   We're, we're way over. Kaelyn:48:33   Um, so anyway, that's the money up at the dreaded money episode everyone got through. We're all still alive. Rekka:48:38   We all love getting paid. So I don't know why we have to say that. It's all dreaded. It's - Kaelyn:48:43   But it is. I mean, it's, you know, but you beloved listener, um, I hope you're so alive and listening and if you're not, I hope you have as queued up on autoplay [laughs]. Rekka:48:54   Um, so hopefully before you passed away, he left this rating and review. Kaelyn:48:59   Yeah. So anyway, thanks for listening again. Uh, you know, you can find us on the socials as usual. Rekka:49:05   Yep. Yeah, we are @WMBcast on Twitter and Instagram. We are at WMBcast.com or WeMakeBookspodcasts.com, and uh, whatever survives Apple's transfer away from iTunes. Please leave us a rating. Kaelyn:49:22   Yeah, this is going to be scary. Rekka:49:23   I don't really know. Kaelyn:49:24   I know. We don't know what's happening. Rekka:49:25   Is the algorithm going to change? Kaelyn:49:27   They've been very, they've not been putting information about what's going to happen. Rekka:49:31   Yeah so maybe by the time this episode airs that will all have settled and you will know exactly where to go and leave us a star rating and review so that other people can find us. Assuming that the algorithm works the same way. Kaelyn:49:43   Sure it will. And as always, you know, please reach out to us. You know, like maybe you had another question about money that uh, we didn't get to your episode. Rekka:49:50   There's definitely more to talk about. Kaelyn:49:52   We can, uh, do some questions. You know, one off questions in the future and you can email us or DM us. Rekka:49:58   Yeah, the dms are always open. They're wide open to the, you can ask us questions that you're embarrassed that you don't know and that's fine. That's great stuff. We want to hear those questions. There is no topic that's too small. There's no, you know, quote unquote stupid questions. You know, just send us your questions so we can help you understand what the whole thing with publishing is, because it is a whole thing. Kaelyn:50:22   We want to make this less scary. Yeah. Alright. Well, again, thanks everyone for listening and we'll two catch you in two weeks. Rekka:50:29   Yeah, two weeks.  

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! This week we’re talking about ARCs or Advance Review Copies! What are they?  Why do we print them?  Who gets them?  Why do they smell better than your average book??  Rekka and Kaelyn discuss all of those things, tell a few funny stories, and spend more than a little time getting side tracked talking about ARCs they’ve received.  We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and any particularly good pie recipes you may have – apple is especially appreciated! We hope you enjoy We Make Books!   Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Rekka:00:00   Welcome back to another episode of the we make books podcast. I'm record Jay and I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore Kaelyn:           00:07   And I'm Kaelyn Considine and I am the acquisition editor for Parvus Press. This is one of my favorite things that happened in the process of publishing a book. And we are of course talking about advanced review copies or ARCs. Rekka:00:19   Because you get to see it and it's a thing and it's real and they haven't been lying to you this whole time and they're really going to publish it. Kaelyn:           00:24   I don't know what it is. I love getting the ARCs it's - Rekka:00:27   Do they smell different? Kaelyn:           00:28   They yes, they smell, this is a trade secret: they smell different than a regular book. Rekka:00:33   They do smell different, Kaelyn:           00:34   Yeah. Rekka:00:35   I'm going to dive in here. Kaelyn:           00:36   No Rekka's right in to the spine. Rekka:00:39   [laughter] Kaelyn:           00:39   Um, so yeah, we're just talking today a little bit about what ARCs are - Rekka:00:43   What it is because as you even mentioned, and I think one of our very intro episodes - Kaelyn:           00:46   It was the intro episode Rekka:00:48   You didn't even know what ARC meant so - Kaelyn:           00:49   That was the example I gave about don't be afraid to ask stupid questions because I knew what an advanced review copy was and I had just never heard it abbreviated to ARC and then I was like, oh, it's that thing I love. Rekka:01:00   Yeah. It's my favorite thing. I know what it is, I just didn't know you called it that. Kaelyn:           01:03   Yeah. You know, we talked a little bit today about what an ARC is, what its function is - Rekka:01:06   Who gets them. Kaelyn:           01:07   Who gets them. Rekka:01:08   And where they go. Kaelyn:           01:09   Where they go. Rekka:01:09   And what their purposes. Kaelyn:           01:11   Exactly. Yeah. So, um, you know, a little interesting bit about the history of them, sort of where they come from and why they are what they are. Rekka:01:20   Mmmhmm. Kaelyn:           01:20   Um, so I think it was a great episode. Rekka:01:22   Yeah Kaelyn:           01:22   I enjoyed doing it. Rekka:01:23   Yes. Well, I always like paying attention to ARCs and, and we get to squeal a little bit about ARCs that are out there in the world. Right this moment as we recorded. Kaelyn:           01:30   Yeah we definitely devolved into - Rekka:01:33   A little bit of squealing. Kaelyn:           01:33   A little bit of squealing. So apologies for that. Rekka:01:36   No apologies. Kaelyn:           01:37   Okay. Nevermind. We're not sorry. Rekka:01:38   Love us as we are - Kaelyn:           01:40   Or not at all. Thanks everyone for listening again and uh, we hope you enjoy the episode. Rekka:01:47   Yeah. Music:02:02   [inaudible] Kaelyn:           02:03   So today what we're talking about our advanced reader copies or ARCs Rekka:02:09   Or advanced review copies, what is the proper nomenclature? Kaelyn:           02:12   Well, that depends who you're sending it to. Okay. Um, I always call them advanced reader copies because that means readers and reviewers. Rekka:02:19   Okay. Kaelyn:           02:19   So, um, but yes, we're talking about advanced copies of your book, which are copies that your publisher will send out to people going like, Hey, we have this book coming out and it's awesome. You should read it. Give us a review or a blurb. And they're awesome. They're, actually ARC's a lot of times are collectors items. Rekka:02:38   Oh dear. Kaelyn:           02:38   Did you know that? Rekka:02:40   I don't want to see them on Ebay though. Kaelyn:           02:42   Not well, I mean, but that's actually, that's a thing. There are a lot of people that collect um, ARCs and uh, because frequently they're uh, you know, labeled as, you know, uncorrected advanced proof. Rekka:02:53   Advanced, mmmhmm. Kaelyn:           02:54   Um, Rekka:02:54   Not for resale. Kaelyn:           02:56   Not for resale. That does not always stop them from popping up. Rekka:02:59   Right. Kaelyn:           02:59   But like, you know, especially if the book really takes off and you have one of the early copies of it, that's a pretty cool thing to have, I think. Rekka:03:07   Yeah. Kaelyn:           03:07   I want to kind of go through some definitions real quick. Mostly between a galley and an ARC. I think galley has really fallen out of use as of late, but you might still hear people throw this term around. Rekka:03:21   Actually I heard it at the Nebulas quite a lot of different contexts. Kaelyn:           03:25   Yes and that was also a group of writing professionals and people who have been doing this for a while and I'm not going like, oh, they're old. Rekka:03:32   [laughs] Eh. Kaelyn:           03:32   But like people that are from, we're writing in an time that galleys were definitely still a thing so. A Galley actually comes from, uh, the middle well, the renaissance era when, uh, typesetting became a thing and you had to put all of the - Rekka:03:50   Letters, Kaelyn:           03:51   Everything in there, print it, and then the pages went into a galley, which was the metal tray that all they all got stacked up in before being bound. Rekka:04:00   Yes. Kaelyn:           04:00   So a galley for a long time was actually just the printed manuscript for corrections. So then you had an uncorrected proof that's, you know, when someone goes through and marks everything up and when oh, my God, we used to have to do this by hand, everyone. Rekka:04:17   Yes. Kaelyn:           04:17   Um, then you have a final proof, which is okay, we're good. The book is in the shape, it's in the, uh, grammar and the punctuation is, uh, mostly correct and in our day and age now that becomes an advanced reader copy. And the main difference between a galleon advanced reader copy now is a galley, is basically a bound manuscript. Um, it probably does not have cover art. It's probably just in a book with big letters on it saying what it is and who it was by. An ARC. On the other hand is going to have cover art. Um, it's going to have cover copy on it. It will say uncorrected advanced proof. Um, or some version of that. It's probably, it might just have a big red band across the top. It might have like a big sticker in the middle of it, Rekka:05:06   Mmmhmm. Kaelyn:           05:06   But it is going to be very clear that this is an ARC. This is not the actual book. Rekka:05:11   Right. Kaelyn:           05:11   So - Rekka:05:12   What is the reason that you would send out a thing that is not the actual book? Kaelyn:           05:16   [lauhgs] That is an excellent question, Rekka. This is actually gets to the heart of a bigger thing, which is why does it take so long to publish a book? Rekka:05:25   What the hell anyway? Kaelyn:           05:26   Well, because your ARCs are going out about six months before the book is released because what your publisher is going to be trying to do is get buzz around it. Get people to say like, Oh yeah, I'll write a review on it. Get a blurb that they can stick on the back cover for when the final release is well released. Rekka:05:43   Mmmhmm. Kaelyn:           05:43   Um, you want people to read this book and the people reading it know, this isn't the final. Rekka:05:50   Okay. Kaelyn:           05:50   They're not getting this and going, oh my God, this ugh - didn't put the commas in the right place. Rekka:05:55   Commas aren't voice. What the hell? Kaelyn:           05:57   Yeah, no, that should be taken care of by the. [laughs] The publishers are sending it to them in hopes of them getting it and going, wow, this is really great, I'm going to write a review on it. There is this book and it's awesome and I loved it and here's all the great stuff I loved about it and you should go buy it. Rekka:06:12   Mmmhmm. Kaelyn:           06:12   We're all trying to generate sales here. We're all trying to make money. Rekka:06:16   So this is a marketing tool, you would say? Kaelyn:           06:18   Yes, I would definitely call it a marketing tool. It is to generate interest in the book. Your ARC is a very precious, very special thing that I think a lot of people underestimate the importance of, you know, we came back from the Nebulas a bit ago and Rekka actually got the unique chance to hand out some of her own ARCs. Rekka:06:40   Yes. And so I got very nervous because, um, Kaelyn said to me as she opened the box, don't just give these to anybody. Kaelyn:           06:51   Yes. Rekka:06:52   So apparently there's an audience for ARC that is more worthy than another. Kaelyn:           06:57   It's not that there is an audience that is more worthy. It's that there is an audience that is going to do more for you and - Rekka:07:05   Right. Kaelyn:           07:05   I know, you know, I'm going to come in and be the coldhearted publisher here, but, and something I keep saying, at the end of the day, we're all here to sell the book. So if you, you know, in this case only have a limited number of these that were shipped to the conference. Rekka:07:19   Right. Kaelyn:           07:21   You have shipped - Rekka:07:22   Hand delivered. Kaelyn:           07:22   Hand delivered, hand delivered to the conference. You have to, you can't just hand them out to your friends at that point. Your ARCs are to get people to pay attention to your book. So you want to get them into the hands of people that are going to take the time, spend the time with these, and hopefully say something nice about them. They're going to put some thought into it. They're not just going to, you know, put it in a pile and go like, oh, I guess I'll read that eventually. Rekka:07:48   Right. And let's just be straightforward. This is a short run of your book. So they are also expensive. Kaelyn:           07:53   They are expensive. Yeah. They're, this is not, you know, obviously if you're at one of the bigger publishing houses, this is, you know, whatever, you just make however many, how many will be printed, depends on the book. I don't have an answer to that. It can be a hundred to 500. It could be, you know, any number of them. But also ARCs are sent out digitally now - Rekka:08:14   Yes. Kaelyn:           08:14   -as well. Rekka:08:15   Some people prefer them digitally Kaelyn:           08:16   Some people prefer them digitally. Rekka:08:17   Which is a shame because if they have the final cover art on them, that sort of loses a little bit of the glamour. Kaelyn:           08:23   Yeah. Rekka:08:23   Because there are people who take a photo of the books that arrive in the mail that day. Kaelyn:           08:28   I always get so excited whenever I see one of our books and like someone's stack and I'm like, Rekka:08:32   It's always a stack. So make sure your spine is pretty too. Kaelyn:           08:34   Yeah. Um, and that's actually the thing. People get a lot of these. Rekka:08:38   Yeah. Kaelyn:           08:38   Yeah and it's a lot of work to read and review those kinds of things. So like most people especially, you know, if you're just like, you have a blog that gets attention or you just, you know, run a website where you do this kind of stuff, sending someone an ARC is not a guarantee that they're going to review it. Rekka:08:52   Right. Kaelyn:           08:52   There's actually a very good chance that they won't - Rekka:08:54   Just because of the quantity of ARCs they receive. Kaelyn:           08:57   I mean, you do it anyway because it's an industry norm. Like, I mean, I think they're fun. I really like them. One of my favorite things is sending out all the Parvus Arcs. I love um, you know, like you get the giant box of them and like it's really cool because I'm usually the first person to see the physical copy of this book. Rekka:09:14   Yeah, mmmhmm. Kaelyn:           09:14   And it's like, it's so pretty, it's everything I imagined it would be. Um, so that's, that's a treat with me because at Parvus, I'm the one who send out the ARCs just cause I like doing it. Rekka:09:28   Yup, yup. and you have a big table that you have access to. Kaelyn:           09:30   I have a big table that I spread out on and you know, put everything in. And um, one of the things I do, because this is the thing is everyone gets bombarded with these is I always try to do something a little special to the books. I tried to wrap them in a way that's thematic to the book. So, um, cause I really, I don't know what it is. I don't know why I just really like dealing with and sending out the ARCs cause they're special. Rekka:09:54   Yeah. They're like, these are the, the new baby announcements. These are the - Kaelyn:           09:59   Yeah it is, it is just the new little baby that has come into the, come into the world. It's like, wow, this really exists now. Rekka:10:05   It's really happening. Kaelyn:           10:06   Yeah. Rekka:10:07   Yeah. So that's as an as an author. Kaelyn:           10:09   Yeah. Rekka:10:10   That's the exciting part for me. It's like, oh my gosh, look, it really exists. As you're really going through with this, like, yeah, we're doing this, we're doing this. And my Gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, and here's my cover and here's what it looks like printed. And there's just something so lovely about seeing the cover, not as a .jpeg. Kaelyn:           10:26   And holding it, and just being like, oh my God, like it's a book Rekka:10:29   It's a real thing. Kaelyn:           10:30   Like for real now, Rekka:10:31   Like I said, all the words in order and everything - Kaelyn:           10:32   And I wrote those words! Rekka:10:34   Yes and oh my gosh, now I have to decide who gets to read those words and oh my gosh, who's was just going to help me because I'm scared. Kaelyn:           10:41   So you know what actually we brought up a good thing is that, did you notice who gets the ARCs here? Rekka:10:47   Sure. Kaelyn:           10:47   It's not sure the author, right? It's the publisher. Rekka:10:50   I happened to be in the building where they arrived. Kaelyn:           10:53   Rekka just happened to be there because we were at this conference. Rekka:10:55   Mmmhmm. Kaelyn:           10:57   Um, but we get the ARCs. Rekka:11:00   Right. Kaelyn:           11:00   Not the author because we're the ones who decide who they go to. Rekka:11:06   Yeah. Kaelyn:           11:07   Now, I mean authors definitely, you know, like if you have someone that's like, Hey, talk to this person, and they said they'd be happy to send a review, absolutely we're going to send them a - Rekka:11:14   Right. Kaelyn:           11:15   - a copy of that. Um, but authors, you guys don't get to decide who the ARCs get sent to because the publishers are the ones with the relationships - Rekka:11:25   The familiarity with the process. Kaelyn:           11:26   Exactly. Yeah. And also, you know, the like I sent handwritten notes with a lot of our ARCs where it's like, hey, you know, you really liked this other thing we sent to you. Maybe you've enjoyed this. Rekka:11:36   Right. Kaelyn:           11:38   Again, authors, you guys don't have as much control over this process as you think you do. Rekka:11:43   Okay, but now having said that, what if somebody is self publishing and decides they want to send physical or even digital arts, how would they decide who should receive them? Kaelyn:           11:53   Well, there's a few ways to do that. And um, it is one of those kind of like trade things of how I get my list of physical addresses to Rekka:12:02   Right. Kaelyn:           12:02   send this to. And that is one of the biggest parts of this, you know, but there are people that do review blogs and different stuff that will just say like, Hey, if you want to send me a review copy, this is where you send it to. Rekka:12:14   Yup. Kaelyn:           12:14   Um, so finding that on your own is just a matter of digging. There's really no good way to do it. I'm sure there's like websites and resources and stuff, but you know, take everything with a grain of salt, Rekka:12:25   Right. Be careful about submitting your advanced copy to a site that you're not that familiar with as a self publisher. You might find yourself on a pirated site as a result of going through these. Instafreebie was a thing for a while that people were using for advanced review copies. And I think that backfired. It might've even, I think they've changed the way instareview works these days. Kaelyn:           12:47   I think so. I will say Netgalley is an excellent resource. Rekka:12:51   Netgalley is pricey, but it's supposedly going to get you the higher quality reviews that you're going to be hoping for. Um, Reedsy now has a book discovery, um, process for the same sort of thing, but you only get one review through that. Um, but it's supposedly a higher quality review and if it's a good review then they feature it. So in theory you're getting exposed to more. Um, but you know, look at the audiences of the people that you're sending it to. Look at the, the quality of their reviews, look at the types of things they tend to say. If you are looking to collect, um, quotes that you can put on your cover, you need them not to be reviews that don't get around to the point until the end of the paragraph and don't really put it in a short pithy phrase that you can lift. Kaelyn:           13:36   Yeah. Anything you pull for like a blurb is going to be a sentence. Rekka:13:40   A tweet length. Kaelyn:           13:41   Yeah, a tweet like as a good is a good marker for them. Aside from sending out the actual physical books. Um, we use Netgalley and a couple other sites. Um, and what that allows us to do is give access to the book to people that maybe aren't on our list - Rekka:13:57   But they're seeking. Kaelyn:           13:57   But they're seeking. Rekka:13:59   Yeah. Kaelyn:           14:00   And they're interested in reading this kind of stuff. So that's, that's a great tool too. But we do still send out the physical books. It's just something that's never going to go away. So that's, you know, that's who is getting, get the ARCs now. What are they going to do with them? Well, there's a very good chance they're going to sit in a stack of books that they will get to eventually. Rekka:14:18   Eventually. Maybe after release date. Kaelyn:           14:20   People that are doing these get, I mean dozens every month and even if you did nothing else but sit there and read them, I don't think you'd finish - Rekka:14:30   Right. Kaelyn:           14:31   - all of these. A lot of times having a personal relationship will help with that. Um, you know, publishers will kind of, you know, talk to someone beforehand or maybe someone through the author that they know to say like, oh, hey, would you be willing to, to give this a read and give us a review? We'd like to use you for a blurb. So I don't want to paint the picture of spamming people - Rekka:14:52   Right. Kaelyn:           14:52   With this in the hopes that one of them pick it up. But you do do some of that because you know, sometimes a book just catches someone's eye, but review copies are also sent up digitally and that one definitely can be more of a like, hey, everyone read this. Rekka:15:06   Yeah. Kaelyn:           15:06   So what are they going to do with that? Let's say they picked it up, they're going to read it. And depending on if they, you know, had talked to the publisher beforehand about like, Hey, would you do this, you know, this specific kind of review or you know, interview about it. Some people will just pick it up and write a review on it and say like, you know, I really liked this. This part was lacking. Those are going to be the honest reviews you get. Rekka:15:30   Yeah. Kaelyn:           15:30   And those are the ones that are a little scary. Rekka:15:31   Yes. Kaelyn:           15:32   Usually if it's going through the publisher and the person will have already kind of had an understanding of what the book is going to be and agree to do it so that they don't have to then be put in the awkward position of writing. I wasn't super into this. Rekka:15:45   Yeah. Sometimes you're going to get people that you don't have that specific agreement with ahead of time that you know, find it through Netgalley and they might - Kaelyn:           15:55   And that's a risk. Rekka:15:56   And that's a risk. Um, Netgalley does allow you to require to approve requests for the ARCs and you could take a look at their profile and say like, you only read erotica. I do not want you to read my space opera. Kaelyn:           16:08   Yeah. Rekka:16:08   You know, um, cause that's a risk that happened to me once with, um, a site that I was using to host my ebooks. I did not realize had added the ebooks to a public list and somebody who was very much into Christian books and Erotica. Kaelyn:           16:24   Oh, interesting. Rekka:16:25   Read the book and left me a review on Amazon that said, it's slow to start, but it gets there and I'm like, it doesn't get where you thought it was going, but all right. Kaelyn:           16:35   [laughs] Rekka:16:35   And it was a three star review and then I'm stuck with it. You know, that's just a funny anecdote aside, but it is, um, if you can, you know, vet the, the service that you're using to gather advanced reviewers, um, and then have one specifically that either makes you or your listing private so that you have, you are sending out the link and that's the only way to get it. Or you send it to specific email addresses and it has to be tied to those email addresses or um, something like Netgalley where you at least have to take a look at the person's profile and say, yeah, I don't really, you have no history of actually publishing reviews once you've read it, so I'm not interested in you. Kaelyn:           17:11   There are ways to control this and um, you know, there's ways you can make it so that people aren't just going to read a free book and there's was around it. And um, you know, there's, you have some degree of control over this. Um, now also though, exercising that degree of control can reduce the amount of reviews and exposure your book gets. Rekka:17:53   So it's a trade off. Kaelyn:           17:54   Yeah. Um, so that's kind of what's going to happen when the ARCs go out into the world. Rekka:18:03   So when you are collecting blurbs from industry professionals or industry readers or you are collecting reviews from other ARC readers, what's the goal? Like when you, when you launched the book, what are you hoping to have? Kaelyn:           18:17   By the end of it, what I'm hoping to have is a solid set of reviews, a solid set of blurbs. And people saying they liked the book. Rekka:18:26   Okay. Kaelyn:           18:26   There isn't a, you must have this many. It depends on the scale of the launch, you know, if it's like, you know, Chuck Wendigs "Wanderers" is coming out soon and like that's already got - Rekka:18:40   There's stuff everywhere for that. Kaelyn:           18:41   There's stuff everywhere for it, it's got dozens of reviews. And if you're working with like a more independent publisher like Parvus yes, we will absolutely target certain things and we will still come in good and strong, but it's not going to be, you know, the scale and scope that something from like Simon and Schuster - Rekka:18:57   Right. Kaelyn:           18:58   Is going to generate. Um, but even, you know, certain things from it depends on how much money they want to put into the marketing. Rekka:19:05   Right. Kaelyn:           19:05   And that's an uncomfortable thing to hear. And ARCs are part of the marketing, but they're not the whole of the market. Rekka:19:11   Right. Kaelyn:           19:12   They're actually a small fraction of it, in terms of marketing. Rekka:19:16   They're a level of social proof that, you know, this isn't an untested book. Someone has read it, enjoyed it. Don't be afraid to check it out. Kaelyn:           19:25   Yeah. So now you might be wondering, well, what's in my ARC? When do I know this book is quote unquote ready for ARCs? A lot of this has to do with publishing calendars. One working on a book takes a while. So right off the bat, that's probably bare minimum six to nine months, probably longer than that, depending on the editor's calendar. So then when the book's done, there's a lot of stuff to do with it afterwards. And all of that considered you need at least six months, maybe even eight or nine to start putting the book out there to generate interest in buzz and send out advanced copies. Right. Six months I think is pretty standard. So that's half a year right there. Right. And then you're figuring out everything in the lead up to that. So if you're going, well, if it's six months beforehand, what happens in those six months after. You finish the book? Rekka:20:24   Right [laughs] Kaelyn:           20:25   Yeah. Um, and I shouldn't say finish it as in finishing writing it, but this is when it's maybe some touches, some line that it's definitely copy, you know, a real true copy edit. You may get feedback from your reviewers that are like this thing, heres not working. Rekka:20:45   Yeah. I would blurb this except for this major thing. Kaelyn:           20:50   And then, hey, guess what? Rekka:20:52   You're going to take that thing out. Kaelyn:           20:53   You're going to go back and work on the book a little more. Rekka:20:54   Yeah. Kaelyn:           20:55   Um, because we're in a digital age, it's so much easier to fix these things and send them out again. You know? So like if a publisher is feeling a little iffy on a book, maybe they'll send it out a little earlier, get some early feedback. Rekka has firsthand experience in a pretty, not significant, but not small changes that were made after ARCs went out Rekka:21:18   They were not line edits, they, they were, uh, we got feedback on the ARCs which, um, caused us to go in and correct a couple of small points that were overcorrections based on earlier feedback. Kaelyn:           21:33   By the way, they were great, you know, great corrections. Your book absolutely is, well, I mean, it was already amazing, but Rekka:21:39   It's improved for having made these corrections - Kaelyn:           21:40   And getting that back is not, uh, this sucks. And sometimes it's like, hey, look, we got this feedback. Rekka:21:46   Yeah. And this feedback is something we want to act on because of the source of the feedback or the nature of the feedback or you know, this was not something we'd thought carefully about at the time when we were, you know, doing structural edits. But now that it's, you know, got a spotlight on it, we're realizing, yeah, taken, taken as it is in this moment. We don't want to publish it this way. Kaelyn:           22:09   Yeah, you know, I think a lot of people listening to this might think, Oh God, like so they can just go back and make me change all of these things after the book is done. Let me be very clear about something that is not a decision any publisher would make lightly. Rekka:22:20   No. Kaelyn:           22:21   Um, Rekka:22:21   But if in that moment you already know that that book should have been put out differently, you still have a chance to change it and in two years you're going to wish that you changed this. Kaelyn:           22:34   And don't think of it as a frustration. Think of it as an opportunity to get a little bit of a do over a little bit of you get to time travel a bit here. You get to go back and fix something. Rekka:22:46   Now, if that feedback came in on a review site, that review may be there forever. But um, that's, you know, eventually it will get buried more or something, you know. But um, it's, it's not like you can pretend it never happened, but it is a chance to show that like, yeah, I'm going to take that feedback and I'm going to do what I can to correct it versus, uh, nope, it's good, it's good, it's fine, you're wrong. And you know, shouting down the reviewer. Kaelyn:           23:16   You know, the other thing here is don't, don't think that your publisher is taking every review and going, oh my God, this thing they didn't like, we need to fix it. Rekka:23:25   I have, I have gone to Colin again, you know, this is my, I have a personal relationship with, with Parvus Press. I've gone to Colin and said, I saw that review that just posted. He's like, don't worry about it. Kaelyn:           23:34   Yeah. Rekka:23:34   That's wrong. Don't worry about it. It's an off the mark. Kaelyn:           23:36   It is and, I will say it can be very frustrating, especially like you know, especially for the writer but like as the editor and I know what people at home were probably screaming into their listening devices at this point is well Kaelyn. You always say if a lot of people are saying it, then it's something you need to take into account. Rekka:23:52   Mmmhmm. Kaelyn:           23:54   Here's the thing you need to understand about reviewers. I won't say they have an agenda because they don't, a lot of times they just enjoy doing these things, but there are definitely people that something maybe they wouldn't read review this book except something bothered them about it so they need to go online and set it right. Rekka:24:12   I mean this is the age of the Internet where we go online to complain about things. Kaelyn:           24:16   We also go online to galvanize things. Rekka:24:18   Yeah. Kaelyn:           24:18   We would go online to, you know like, and I really wish we'd have more of that in the world. Talk about things you love. Rekka:24:24   Oh my gosh right now that what you will hear people screaming about, it's still won't be out when we air this episode is Gideon the Ninth by Tamsyn Muir and Kaelyn is making a face because Kaelyn has not gotten to read this yet Kaelyn:           24:37   I have not gotten an advanced copy of that and I'm not happy. Rekka:24:40   As soon as mine comes back, I will, I will loan it to you. Um, you will have to let Ryan read it over your shoulder because I've also promised it to him. This book is amazing and it's just a - Kaelyn:           24:50   Ryan Kelley, by the way, is Rekka's editor- Rekka:24:53   I suppose we should introduce him. Kaelyn:           24:55   And she's not sure who you're more tied to here. Rekka:24:58   Well I see you more often. Kaelyn:           25:00   That's true. Rekka:25:00   I haven't met Ryan in person yet and Ryan and I talk when I've done something wrong. Um, Kaelyn:           25:07   [laughter] Rekka:25:07   But um, yeah, so like that's what I mean. Like the gal - , you will go on Twitter - Kaelyn:           25:11   Yes. Rekka:25:11   and you will just see people are screaming their heads off in love with this book for good reason. Kaelyn:           25:16   And I am, I love seeing that kind of stuff. I love when to use the example of Gidion the Ninth and generating buzz. For instance, the way I first heard about this book was our Rekka:25:27   Mutual friend. Kaelyn:           25:28   Mutual friend Alexandra Rowland. Rekka:25:29   Alex was showing our other mutual friend - Kaelyn:           25:33   Yes. Yes, that was it. Rekka:25:33   Jennifer Mace, Macy at the table. I already had read mine or it was halfway through mine or something at that point. And um, I was able to pick it up, show it to Kaelyn and say, you need to read this book at some point, open it up to a random page and find an amazing like line that was just like evidence of why this book was great. And the buzz at that table, there were four people sitting at that table at that point - Kaelyn:           25:58   All talking about this. Rekka:26:00   All talking about this one book two people who haven't read it yet, who now had to read it. And that's the power of, that's the magic review copy Kaelyn:           26:08   That's the magic of ARCs. You know, I don't think anyone actually does this. I'd be curious if people really go through and look for the differences. If you got the ARC and then you get the final copy, I'm sure for certain books that are super fans that will do that Rekka:26:22   Well, for Salvage, they're are going to be some obvious differences. Kaelyn:           26:25   Yes. Rekka:26:28   Um, Salvage - Kaelyn:           26:28   Let's talk about that. What the difference between, you know, how different can you expect an ARC to be from your final copy? Rekka:26:36   We mentioned earlier that an ARC may not be produced in the same print run style that the final would be, which might make it more expensive, but we'll also create differences in the paper and the, the trim and things like that. Kaelyn:           26:52   We'll put a picture of this up on Twitter and Instagram. But, um, we, we were going out to the Nebulas and we were like, you know what, we've got to get Salvage out because Rekka:27:02   I'll be there. Kaelyn:           27:04   Rekka, will be there. But also we're really excited about this and we're like, it would be a wasted opportunity to not just have a bag with, you know, a few of these that we can hand out. Right. Rekka:27:12   And when I say that I'll be there. I didn't mean because they need to give me an ARC to make me feel happy and pretty. Kaelyn:           27:18   No, it's - Rekka:27:18   It's because I will be there making personal connections with people and here's a great chance to hand them the ARC. Kaelyn:           27:25   Yeah. Rekka:27:26   If immediately following or whatever. Kaelyn:           27:28   Yeah. Rekka:27:28   That conversation. Kaelyn:           27:29   Yeah. And if the ARCs handed to you by the author, it's, and it's an extra little special, you know, so we were like, okay, we're going to do this. And we used a different printer than we normally do just because of where we could fit into the printer's schedule. But we did use a local printer so that they were just right there and they use very, very nice paper. Rekka:27:49   It's very nice. Kaelyn:           27:49   It's really nice paper. It made the book about half an inch thicker. Rekka:27:55   Over 576 pages as it turns out, 0.0006 inches of difference in paper thickness adds up to .4 inches. Kaelyn:           28:05   Yeah. Rekka:28:05   In spine width, so we'll put a picture up of the, the Nebula version of the ARCs next to Flotsam and next to the final version of the ARCs that were printed later. Kaelyn:           28:15   Yeah. So, and that is something you also see with ARCs is a lot of times the book looks at, the only way I can describe it is as awkward [laughter] and just you pick it up and you're kind of like, I know this isn't quite right. Yeah. Um, but yeah, this, this was - Rekka:28:32   There's some growing pains and - Kaelyn:           28:33   Yeah this is, uh quite a quite a size. So it's, um, it's cool to have hold to have those. Rekka:28:37   It's a massive chunky book. Kaelyn:           28:40   Yeah. So, but anyway, um, there's going to be differences in Salvage from what the ARC is to a final print run. Rekka:28:51   And some of that is just going to be simple, like the cover is going to look slightly different because the ARC binding has - Kaelyn:           28:59   Was so thick. Rekka:29:00   Well pull that. Well, yeah. Okay. So the spine is going to be very different. Therefore the weight of the book is going to be different. But also there's a red band across the outside of the cover that says on it, um, uncorrected advanced review, um, and the dates that it will be published there. Um, therefore all the, the titling stuff has moved down and adjusted. Um, the back cover copy is not the final back cover copy. This is more like, you know, why you should open this ARC versus the ARC that came the same day to your PO Box. Um, and the artwork on the inside I have supplied because I draw the chapter art for my own books. Um, this is not expected of all authors by the way. Kaelyn:           29:40   That's not even usually tolerated and everything. Rekka:29:43   Right. So I, I do have a professional background in design. Kaelyn:           29:46   So anyway .... Rekka:29:48   So anyway, so Salvage, uh, currently the ARCs have the same chapter art from Flotsam because the chapters themselves have different POV characters. And just on the timeline, I don't think there was a chance to really sit down with the, um, with the layout person who was not me in this case and say like, okay, it's chapters one, seven, 11, 12 and 13. This art, this art, this art. Kaelyn:           30:14   Yeah. Rekka:30:14   So that was just a layer of complexity that wasn't going to happen on the timeline that we had. Um, so there will be different artwork on the inside. I didn't look whether Colin did his typical copyright page malarkey. Kaelyn:           30:30   Do you want to go grab the book and find out? Rekka:30:32   Yeah, I'll find out. Kaelyn:           30:33   I'll tell the story, our publisher, Colin Coyle, who I promise we will have on the show at some point, um, has a fun little thing he likes to do that there is an Easter egg in every Parvus book. Um, they're not always on the, uh, Rekka:30:49   I've seen this in something else. So this is not uh specific to Salvage. He must've lifted it from something else. Kaelyn:           30:54   Oh okay, yeah. Um, we have a little running joke at Parvus that there's an Easter egg in every book. Rekka:31:01   On the copyright page. Kaelyn:           31:02   Not always on the copyright page. Rekka:31:04   Oh dear. Kaelyn:           31:05   A lot of times, not always, Rekka:31:07   Alright, alright. Kaelyn:           31:07   But usually you can find at least one on the copyright page. So, you know, the whole point is that at the end when the final version of Salvage comes out, it's going to be different. It's not going to be majorly different. Rekka:31:19   But if you were selling this on Ebay, please don't, um, you would be able to point to like, yes, this is the version you're looking for because, um, evidenced by these various differences. Kaelyn:           31:31   Yup. So, um, that's, you know, how do you know when your book's ready for an ARC? We were kind of talking about this a little bit with the calendar. Really it kind of falls into your book is scheduled to be released this date. That means we have to start sending out ARCs by this time. Rekka:31:48   And there are also, um, publications that you might send it to in the hopes of like a starred review. Kaelyn:           31:53   Yeah. Rekka:31:53   And they have a very, they're very tight grace period of when they need to receive it by. So I say very long grace period. That's the opposite of what I mean, they have a very short window of opportunity. If you don't have it in by this date, it's not going to even be looked at. Kaelyn:           32:10   They're not going to look at it. So, um, when is your ARC done? Hopefully at least six months beforehand. Even if it's not done. But that's the thing. Your ARC is not your finished book. Rekka:32:22   Right. Kaelyn:           32:22   So when is your book done? That's completely separate issue from when your ARCs are ready to go out. Rekka:32:27   That can be 6:00 PM on the day that it needs to be uploaded to Amazon. Kaelyn:           32:30   If you're self publishing. Rekka:32:31   Self publishing, yeah. Kaelyn:           32:33   But if you're, you know, being, if you're going through a traditional publishing house and if you're distributed they don't need as much run time. Rekka:32:39   But like - Kaelyn:           32:40   They need some cause they have to order a print the books. Rekka:32:42   Yes. Kaelyn:           32:43   Um, and you know, we are living in a day and age where that happens much faster now. Rekka:32:48   But it still physically takes time. Like there's, there's a certain amount of time that it takes for the ink to dry on the page before they can bind it. There's a certain amount of time that it takes for the trimmer to cut through the, the massive, you know, oversized book and cut it down to its final trim size. Like these things just, you know - Kaelyn:           33:06   They just take time. Rekka:33:07   It takes Kaelyn a certain number of seconds to open an email and that limits how many submissions she can go through it. Kaelyn:           33:14   I can go through, yup. Rekka:33:14   Like it is just a physical limitation of the, you know, construct of time. Kaelyn:           33:20   Yup. The construct of time. It is a construct. Rekka:33:23   It's totally a construct because where does it go? Kaelyn:           33:25   Erm, eh yes. Rekka:33:27   So speaking of where does time go? We are out of time for this episode, but I - Kaelyn:           33:31   Already? Rekka:33:32   Yeah. Kaelyn:           33:32   I even got to get back to my roots and give a little history lesson in the beginning. Rekka:33:35   Yeah. Are you happy? Do you feel fulfilled? Kaelyn:           33:37   Um, I don't have any undergraduates, uh, looking at me, very bored. So - Rekka:33:42   So you feel like you did it wrong? Both:   33:45   [laughter] Kaelyn:           33:45   I feel a little better than I normally did. As always. I hope this was, uh, entertaining and educational. Rekka:33:52   Yeah. And if you have any questions that we didn't answer about ARCs, uh, you can shoot us a question at WMBcast on Instagram or Twitter. You can follow us and, or support us at patreon.com/wmbcast or email us at feedback@wmbcast.com. But, um, yeah, so ARCs are extremely cool. I hope everyone gets to look at an ARC someday - Kaelyn:           34:13   Yeah, and check out Netgalley. It's free to sign up for and you get to read and find a lot of really cool stuff on there. Rekka:34:18   Yes. Kaelyn:           34:19   Um, so you know, if you're looking, if you're interested in being involved in that kind of thing, Netgalley is a great place to start. And then you know, you can go on Goodreads, you can go on Amazon and say like, I got an advanced copy of this - Rekka:34:30   And maybe in a future episode we'll talk about like how to structure a review that is going to be useful for a lot. Kaelyn:           34:36   I've got thoughts. Rekka:34:37   Yeah, we've got thoughts I've got, there are definitely thoughts. So maybe that's a future episode or we're thrown on Patrion or something like that if it doesn't end up a full length episode. But I feel like we could rant about that 45 minutes. Kaelyn:           34:46   I'm not sure anyone's going to want to listen to it. Rekka:34:48   Yeah, you know, you know, emoting and commiseration are things that - Kaelyn:           34:52   We'll do a dial in, call us and tell us your, you know, so, um, yes. Rekka:34:57   So the other thing is if you are self publishing and you don't know how you're going to get an ARCs, you can get ARCs through kindle direct publishing. You can also upload your file to lulu.com or other, um, small - Kaelyn:           35:10   Print on demand. Rekka:35:11   Print on demand services and you can see it in person first. And honestly, I really feel like you should before you release it into the world because there's things that you just might not consider when you've only looked at it in a digital space. So that's another good reason to look at an ARC even though that's not really the traditional function of them. They're not the proofs, um, the cover proofs or anything like that. We're talking about, um, use in promoting your book, but order one before you order 20 is all I'm saying, if you haven't seen it in print before. Kaelyn:           35:40   Yeah. So, you know, thanks so much for listening. Everyone and - Rekka:35:42   Send us your questions. If you could rate and review us on iTunes, that would be great. And if you have a friend who is interested in writing or publishing, send them this episode, share it. You can help guide the conversation and sort of be part of it. So, uh, we'll look forward to hearing your comments and your ratings and reviews, and we'll start reading reviews in a future episode. We do have a couple, we just haven't fit that into the episode yet. Kaelyn:           36:03   Yes. Alright. Thanks so much for listening everyone, and we'll see you next time. Rekka:36:07   Take care everyone.  

Find us our subreddit @ https://www.reddit.com/r/thecitywithinthewalls Come chat with us on discord @ https://discord.gg/Mmn2FPW Also, find us and a plethora of other Audio Drama creators, writers, and actors on the Podcast Junkie discord @ https://discord.gg/napQ3Cb Follow us on Twitter (@citywithinwalls):    https://twitter.com/citywithinwalls The website will be done soon, I promise. When its finished i will post the link here (___). Special guests include -  Emily Swan (Dr Pierce) and Zack Auld (rescue worker)   [Salistine] Sir?...sir…..commissioner Grady...hello?...sir can you hear me?   (Phones rings)   [Jarrett] Hello   [Salistine] Councilman Grady.   [Jarrett] Salistine?   [Salistine] Sir, there's been an explosion. Commissioner  Grady is...unresponsive. His vitals are there, but are slowly fading. What should I do?   [Jarrett] An explosion?! Where is he now?   [Salistine] He's buried beneath debris sir. I can still read his vitals, but they're beginning to fade...you are the profile, programmed into my emergency protocol. What do you want me to do?   [Jarrett] (Panicking) Keep...keep trying to wake him up. I have a team on there way as we speak.   [Salistine] Yes sir. (Phone call ends) Commissioner Grady! Commissioner Grady, can you hear me.   (Rubble begins to move around as the rescue team searches for Tharin)   [Guy 1] I'VE FOUND HIM! HE'S OVER HERE. COME HELP ME MOVE THIS! Grab that. One, two, three, puuull.   [Guy2] Oh wow…   [Guy1] Come on...grab his feet.   [Guy2] Are you sure we should move him?   [Guy1] Yes I'm sure. We have to get him to the hospital. Now grab his feet.   [Guy2] His legs are like rubber.   [Guy1] Just shut up and do your job!   (They begin to carry him off)   [Guy2] He's...not…going to...?   [Guy1] Of course not. Our job is to keep him alive and we're going to do that job...got it?   [Guy2] Yes...right! Keep him alive.   [Guy1] (Talking louder so the driver can hear) Get us to central med immediately! Tell them we're on the way with a code red and we need them outside and ready when we get there. Let them know the patient is fading fast and we may have to elevate statis to code blue. His breathing is rapid and BP is sky high.   [Ambulance driver] Central med, this is 501. We have a code red and request assistance upon arrival. Be advised, breathing is rapid and BP is well beyond normal ranges. (Scene fades)   (Machines are beeping. You can hear Tharin at first breathing in a mask along with his heartbeat. This transitions into a room atmosphere where we hear the machines monitor his vitals)   [Jarrett] Sooo...what is happening with Tharin, right now? Right this minute, I mean?   [Doctor] Well...he's breathing a gas that keeps him...in a near comatose state. We'll continue to give him the shots of the nano drug Vent. It will steadily repair the bone and tissue within the body. Once that's done, it's...just a waiting game. We can repair his body, but...whether he wakes up or not, is up to him.   [Jarrett] So this has worked before?   [Dr] We've never really had the opportunity to use it on someone with...this amount of damage. His injuries are---quite extensive. This really is the only option we have.   [Jarrett] Thank you doctor.   (Aleen comes in the room, she still has no idea what's going on, just that Tharin was involved in one of the explosions the whole city now knows about.)   [Aleen] Oh...councilman Grady, is he...gonna be ok?   [Jarrett] We don't know yet. The doctor was just telling me, it's...it's too soon to tell. I don't know what to do Aleen. I can't lose Tharin. I mean he's the only heir to the Grady house. If he's lost, so is the Grady name...and the only son I've ever known.   [Aleen] So what's the odds of him...   [Jarrett] The Vent is doing its job and his body is beginning to repair, but it's going to take time. Nearly every bone in his body was broken. A few organs were damaged and on the verge of shutting down. They've never used the vent like this before, but once that is complete, it will be his decision on whether he wakes or not.   [Aleen] So that's good news. If the Vent is working then we just have to wait a while right?   [Jarrett] That's... going to be a long while, I fear. (Scene fades)   (New scene, same ambience) (Phone rings) (Phone noise)   [Jarrett] Tell me something good.  …. That is not good at all.  …. Hmmm…so they found two then?... Mmmhmm... So tell me what the two chemicals prove again.  ... Ok...so they'll be taken to the lab for analysis? And the analysis tells them where the chemicals came from?... Ahhh, ok. Then what? The round room I'm guessing?... Right, so once all the Intel is gathered it goes to the round room, what happens then?... Right, but with him here and Saris missing that only leaves you and Dayton to handle the situation.  …. No you're...I mean I know your more than capable.  …. Ok James, thank you for calling. Keep me up to date.   (New scene, same ambience)   [Jarrett] Ah, doctor Peirce.   [Dr] Councilman. (Said as a greeting) The Vent seems to have its job. His bones and organs are fully healed. We will be talking him off the gas soon...and we'll see how everything holds up. We'll continue to monitor his vitals and once we determine he's good, then...we wait.   [Jarrett] To see if he wakes up, you mean.   [Dr] Yes   [Jarrett] And what's the likelihood of him not...waking up?   [Dr] This generally takes a few days to a few weeks. As I said before some handle this better than others, but really it's a waiting game. If he refuses to wake up on his own, then, don't worry we have some medications that will help.   [Jarrett] Does everyone wake up?   [Dr] That...hmmm...councilman, we'll do everything in our power to make sure commissioner Grady wakes up.   [Jarrett] (Concerned breath) Thank you doctor.   [Dr] He'll be fine, you have my word. (Scene fade)   (New scene, same room)   [Aleen] Tharin?...I don't know if you can hear me or not, but I want...he moved...he moved! Get the doctor! Tharin just moved his hand!   [Jarrett] What?   [Aleen] He moved! Get the doctor, hurry!   (We hear Jarrett run out of the room)   [Aleen] Tharin, Tharin can you hear me…   (Tharin squeezes Aleens hand. She begins to feel the emotions of happiness and relief consume her every movement. She begins to cry from the overwhelming emotions of happiness and relief and tries to speak.)   [Aleen] Oh...thank the council...you had us all so worried.   (The dr comes in the room as shes end her statement)   [Dr] You said he moved?   [Aleen] (Aleen struggles to compose herself) Yes, it was just a twitch of his hand, but then I asked if he could hear me and he squeezed my fingers.   [Dr] He responded then?   [Aleen] Yes.   [Dr] Well that's great! Let's...take a look. (The doctor begins to examine Tharin) If you can hear me Tharin, squeeze my hand. Perfect. Here, let me get this off of you...there, that's better. Can you open your eyes?...(a short laugh of relief). Welcome back commissioner. (Scene fades)   (New scene, still in the hospital room)   [Tharin] How long was I out? [Jarrett] A week.   [Tharin] Hmmm, what did I miss?   [Jarett] Well, there were 6 bombings all together. Two more on the night of your incident, one at James Corins and one at Daytons appartment. Luckily neither of them where home. James was out with his family and Dayton was off doing something, that has yet to be disclosed.   [Tharin] Sorrel still keeping secrets?   [Jarrett] Yes.   [Tharin] And the other three bombings, where were they?   (Jarrett throws a tan folder on the table next to Tharins bed)   [Jarrett] This is the report from James and Dayton. The other three appear to be in random spots, but James said they were not random at all. He wants you to call him immediately.   (Long pause, Tharin picks up the folder and begins to thumb through it.)   [Jarrett] Tharin...the city is not in a good order right now. Peoples trust in the two policing forces, Dayton and the council...have begun to wane a bit. The city is very much on edge, at this point. People are frightened.   [Tharin] (Breath) Have you heard from Ross?   [Jarrett] He just called this morning and said he had some very good news for you.   [Tharin] Did he say what the news was?   [Jarrett] No, and I didn't think to ask. I was on my way over here and...well..   [Tharin] I understand...do you think you could give Aleen and I a moment?   [Jarrett] Yes of course. (Jarrett starts to leave but stops just before exiting the door.) Tharin, I'm glad your back.   [Tharin] I'm glad to be back father (The door closes) Aleen   [Aleen] Tharin, you had us all very worried. The doctor...wasn't sure...if the treatment would work. He said they'd used it for minor repair before, but nothing this extensive.   [Tharin] Yes well it worked. I'm alive aren't I?   [Aleen] Yes, yes you are.   [Tharin] It's going to take more than the weight of a building to stop me.   (Both laugh)   I uhmmm. When I...when I was under, I could hear everything. I could hear the doctor, talking about the procedure going on with the Vent. I could hear my father, trying to keep everyone informed. All these voices...every time I heard someone's voice I'd cringe. Every voice, but yours.   [Aleen] Tharin I…   [Tharin] Please, let me finish. I've never allowed anyone to get close. This city is full of people looking out only for themselves, ready to stab you in the back if they have to. So I've always protected myself...but you...Aleen. When I took you on that date, all I was expecting was to go and then be done with it. Get it over and never look back...but you've done something to me...Aleen Harris. What I'm trying to say...is…   [Aleen] I know how you feel Tharin. Why do u think I'm here?   [Tharin] Thank you for being here...Aleen.   [Aleen] Thank you for waking up Tharin Grady.   (New scene in Ross's shop)   [Tharin] Ross   [Ross] There's a voice I never expected to hear again.   [Tharin] Nice to see you too Ross. My father told me you had something for me?   [Ross] Right, straight to business. (Breath) Ok...I have narrowed the seven signals down to three. Here are their patterns. I've also been able to determine who these three signals belong to. Here's all the information, including names, addresses, passcode numbers and employers.   [Tharin] Well I'll have to admit Ross...you've done a fine job here. Are you beginning to secretly like all this detective work? Because it seems to me your beginning to secretly like all this…   [Ross] I can not wait….commissioner Grady, til you find Saris and I'm able to get back to my work. Work which is beginning to pile up.   [Tharin] Is that a yes then?   [Ross] That is a firm no...commissioner Grady.   [Tharin] Right, I'll take it as a yes. Keep at it Ross, I'll let you know what these three turn up.   [Ross] I'll be anxiously waiting to hear back, that you've found Saris and I'm finally rid of you and your...investigation.   [Tharin] I missed you too, Ross. Have a nice day.   (Door closes)   [Ross] Still a piece of garbage.   (New scene)   [Salistine] Welcome back sir.   [Tharin] Salistine?   [Salistine] Yes sir?   [Tharin] I haven't been able to properly thank you.   [Salistine] Thank me for what sir?   [Tharin] Saving my life Salistine. If it weren't for your prompt actions I would have been dead.   [Salistine] I was merely following the emergency protocol, programmed into my...programming...sir.   [Tharin] Well at any rate, I've never thanked you so...thank you.   [Salistine] Your welcome sir.   [Tharin] Call me Tharin, Salistine. You've earned that right at least.   [Salistine] Yes...Tharin.   [Narrator] Life...what is life but a passing moment, the bat of an eye, an insignificant breeze...that blows only but a second before quickly fading away. These are the thoughts of Tharin as he begins to see his beloved city in a new light. Surpassing the old that seemed at one time...eternal. This new light is fragile, dim and flickering. Onward you March Tharin Grady. Onward you March, with your brethren through The City Within The Walls.   (False end) (New scene. Coms rings, Jones answers.)   [Jones] Hello.   [Unknown] Jones.   [Jones] (Very nervously replies) Uhh… yes sir.   [Unknown] The plan has failed I see.   [Jones] Well...sir, we...had a hiccup.   [Unknown] You call that a hiccup. Their. All. STILL ALIVE JONES!     [Jones] Our...people in the hospital weren't given clearance to get close enough to Tharin to finish the job. As far as James...he went out on a spontaneous dinner with his family and Dayt….   [Unknown] You know what this sounds like to me? It sounds like your giving me excuses...Jones. When have you ever known me to want anything...but results.   [Jones] I understand sir, but…   [Unknown] If you continue, failing to deliver...let's just say, there are others ready to take your place. Am I understood?   [Jones] Yes sir. [Unknown] Good. Now, I take it you have a backup plan?   [Jones] Yes sir, there is a contingency.   [Unknown] Good. For your sake and the sake of everyone around you, I hope this contingency works. Do not fail me again Jones.   [Jones] No, sir. I will not fail you again.   (Phone hangs up)   [Jones] (Breath) Get me Gypsy….NOW!   (End)

VISIT OUR SPONSOR! www.warforthetower.comArt Credit! https://www.deviantart.com/alsdale/art/Hell-s-Bells-Dresden-Files-611010514Hey there you beauties! I was looking for a good piece of fanart and stumbled across this one that's a headcannon (ie. not based on a scene in the book) in which Molly, Thomas, Harry, and Mouse are all hanging out and I really liked it. Look how happy Mouse looks! So in these chapters, Harry decides that it's time to snoop around Thomas's place and see if there's anything linking him to the scenes that he's been studying. Unfortunately, there are quite a few things that link Thomas, and Harry is irritated because while he still doesn't think that Thomas is the murderer, he knows that anyone who comes across his creepy collage will definitely think so. Then, Harry has to pretend to be Thomas's disgruntled lover to throw off security. Mmmhmm. Thanks for listening, and I will see you next week with a new episode!

VISIT OUR SPONSOR! www.warforthetower.comArt Credit! https://www.deviantart.com/alsdale/art/Hell-s-Bells-Dresden-Files-611010514Hey there you beauties! I was looking for a good piece of fanart and stumbled across this one that's a headcannon (ie. not based on a scene in the book) in which Molly, Thomas, Harry, and Mouse are all hanging out and I really liked it. Look how happy Mouse looks! So in these chapters, Harry decides that it's time to snoop around Thomas's place and see if there's anything linking him to the scenes that he's been studying. Unfortunately, there are quite a few things that link Thomas, and Harry is irritated because while he still doesn't think that Thomas is the murderer, he knows that anyone who comes across his creepy collage will definitely think so. Then, Harry has to pretend to be Thomas's disgruntled lover to throw off security. Mmmhmm. Thanks for listening, and I will see you next week with a new episode!

Hannah Fairlight - Musician (MmmHmm Band)This episode is with super busy musician Hannah Fairlight. In this episode we talk about how being raised by hippies influenced her music, recording her first album at 13, her first gig being at CBGB, as well as her film debut in Pitch Perfect 3, and her band 'MMHMM' with Raelyn Nelson and her solo career as Hannah Fairlight.Follow Hannah:Twit: @HannahFairlightInsta: @HannahFairlightFB: Hannah FairlightFollow MMHMM:Twit: @mmhmmBandInsta: @mmhmmBandFB: mmhmmVisit HannahFairlight.com / mmhmm.bandcamp.com

In this episode the band, Andrew McGregor, Aidan wachter, and Fabeku Fatunmise, bring is guest musician and occultist Jason Miller. The converstaion covers magick, ego, meditation, and much humour.  Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. Jason can be found here.  Aidan can be found here.  Fabeku can be found here.  Andrew can be found here.  In stacking skulls we trust shirts can be bought here.  If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew Transcript ANDREW: Hey there, folks. We're back this week with another episode of The Hermit's Lamp podcast, and today is recording Stacking Skulls. As you may recall, this is our fictional occult rock band, which started last year or so, and, you know, continues to be a regular segment on the podcast, so we have back Aidan Wachter, and Fabeku, and joining us in the guest spot this week is Jason Miller. So, for folks who are just starting this fine journey with us, who are you, Aidan? What are you -- Who are you?  AIDAN: I don't know. I can't tell. Today. I'm a talismanic jeweler. I've been doing the magic thing for 30-something years now. And technically now I can say I'm a bestselling author, which is ridiculous, but awesome.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AIDAN: And that's it! I make jewelry, I write some, I live on a micro ranch with a bunch of birds and some dogs and some goats.  ANDREW: And rabbits. AIDAN: And a lot of rabbits. [sigh] They're our doom plan. If doom happens, we know what we're eating for the first few months till they're gone. [laughing] ANDREW: How about you, Fabeku?  FABEKU: Yeah. I do business stuff. I've done magic for 30 years. Artist, writer, shoe aficionado, live with a terribly spoiled Internet famous cat who will probably make some kind of an appearance at some point in our conversation. Yeah. That's about it. I don't live on a micro ranch. So.  AIDAN: [laughing] ANDREW: How about you, Jason?  JASON: Oh, author, teacher, sorcerer, been doing this since I was 15 and I'm 45 now, so, you know, a long time.  ANDREW: Yeah. So you know, listening to this, it makes me realize, we're all getting old! [laughter] ANDREW: I remember a time when I used to be like super inspired by like "Oh my god, they've been doing this for like this many years..." and now I'm sort of getting on the other end of that spectrum, you know, I mean I've been reading cards for 35 years now, something like that. And doing magic for about the same. And you know, now I'm on that end of the thing, I'm like man, I'm starting to sound old, I'm starting to talk about, you know, stuff that doesn't exist anymore. I'm like, man...  [laughter] AIDAN: We were talking about this, Fabeku and I. [static 00:02:59]  ANDREW: Yep. Well, it happens, right? Hopefully, if you keep working at it, it gets better and better. Which has definitely been my experience. Right?  FABEKU: Yeah, yeah, for sure.  ANDREW: So, I mean, we recorded three months-ish ago, last time. What's new? What's going on? In your lives? What's changed since we talked before? If anything stands out?  AIDAN: For me, the main thing is I spent, just spent a week with my grandkids and their mom, and that was awesome. That was something I have been looking forward to since they were born. They just turned five months old. And they're awesome. ANDREW: Nice.  AIDAN: Mama's killer. And it was a super good time. So. ANDREW: That's awesome. Mmmhmm. And your book came out and is doing super well.  AIDAN: It has. I forgot that that actually is within that same window. Yeah, the book's doing great, and really pleased with that. And by the first of August I'll actually be set to start sending those out to shops wholesale. I've got enough space and figuring out how we're doing that. We kind of wanted to see how the ... how that played out overall. But that'll be again going starting in August, so.  ANDREW: Amazing. I can't wait. People keep coming and asking for them and I keep having to tell them to go to Amazon, so. I'll be happy to ... to service that need, so. Yeah.  AIDAN: Yeah. So, I'll have the specs up on that on the website shortly, but anybody that's interested that has a shop can just drop me a line as well and I'll add them to the list.  ANDREW: Nice. So I guess I'm curious. How has this publishing this book changed your sense of self? Or your identity? Or has it?  AIDAN: It's been really good, because I think, due to spending a lot of time early on in kind of magical circles that I didn't really grok ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AIDAN: I ... In the last few years of kind of being public again, I've kind of realized that yeah, some of what I do does make sense to people, you know?  ANDREW: Mmm. AIDAN: It is useful to people. But the general responses that I've got from the book have been so killer that I'm like, "Oh, excellent.” So there ARE a lot of people who are doing or at least open to the type of work that I do, which to me is really good, cause you just don't know, in general, if you're kind of as reclusive as I tend to be. And so that's been really good. I mean it hasn't changed what I do or anything, but I'm feeling more kind of excited about what that I choose to think is going on in the magical world [chuckling] whether I'm right or not.  ANDREW: Mmm. AIDAN: There's at least a reasonable sized number of people who are at least kind of on the same page or interested in that.  ANDREW: Yeah.  AIDAN: It's cool.  FAB: Nice.  ANDREW: How bout, how are ... FABEKU: I think you came out at just the right time, man.  AIDAN: Yeah, for sure.  FABEKU: Absolutely. ANDREW: Yeah, I mean and if you're listening and you haven't read Aidan's book, you know, I've read a ton of books over the years and everybody who's on here has, and it's a book that I wish I had read first.  FABEKU: Absolutely. ANDREW: It's definitely, you know, I started with Magic in Theory and Practice, that was my introduction to magic, and the only book that I owned on it for a number of years, and I think about how obtuse and unapproachable that book is from a practical point of view and from a like, you know, what do you actually do in the room when you're standing there with all these things? It's just not set up for that very well, and yeah, the amount of time I wasted sorting through and figuring out stuff and being like, "Ohh, I get it, you have to do this with your arm, okay, now I understand," you know, or whatever ... Yeah.  AIDAN: [laughing]  ANDREW: Mmmhmm.  AIDAN: Thank you. ANDREW: Yeah.  FABEKU: I think for the longest time there was this divide of [clears throat] a free approach represented by chaos magic but that rejected sort of spirit and offerings and such, and then traditionalists who were working with spirits and ... but rejected sort of a freer more streamlined approach and in recent years those things have come together and Aidan is sort of right, Six Ways is like a perfect manual, for, look, you don't have to reject spirits to have this freedom and streamlining of chaos. It's ... ANDREW: Mmm. FABEKU: You know, they can work, meld together perfectly. Absolutely. ANDREW: Yeah. Well, I think that, I think it's something that we all share to a large degree, this sort of connection to spirit and sort of working with spirits, and I think that, at least in my experience, if you're listening to the spirits that you're working with, you're going to end up in some more free-flowing kind of space in some way or other, right? You know that communication that can come back from them, you know, is super, can be super open-ended, you know? And even in, you know, like in my Orisha tradition and stuff which is sort of theoretically super structured, I mean it is very structured, but it's still the Orishas dictating that structure, dictating what comes through, right? You're like, what offering will you accept to help me with this thing? What offering do I need to make to make this connection stronger? You know, and then you just proceed to, you know, in that case, in a formalized process, but in other ways, you just proceed down a list of, would you like something like this, would you like that, you know? And I think that that's so contrary to sort of my notions from the ceremonial stuff that I started in, which were, I better do all this calculus ahead of time and be sure that, you know, all the names add up to the right numbers, and all the colors are there, and all the ... you know, angles are right and all these sort of things, otherwise I'm going to open a vortex into the abyss, and the universe is going to collapse, or you know, whatever, right?  AIDAN: Totally. FABEKU: Been there, yeah.  AIDAN: And I think too, I mean, I think one of the cool things with working with spirits is, that I don't hear a lot about is, it gives you an option to kind of go, is ... Am I even looking at this in any way in the right way?  ANDREW: Mmm. AIDAN: And have some feedback from that, right? We can do that just through divination if we believe that the divination doesn't involve spirits, I guess, but [laughing] kind of more specifically doing it with the people that you're working with, whether that's divination or trance and going, okay, what am I just wasting my time on here? What's not going to happen this year?  ANDREW: Mmmhmm.  AIDAN: Or where should I focus this year? Or where did I kind of fall off the track, where did I fall off the rails, and that's a huge benefit to me.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm.  FABEKU: Well, you know, I think the other piece, kind of following this thread, is, you know, to me, it's interesting when you're able to get the spirit's perspective on something. You know, how does this spirit see the thing that I'm looking at? How does this plant spirit see it? How does this animal spirit? How does this stone spirit see it, right? It's like, for me, that's one of the, like you said, the valuable things, right? Because you know I think that we get so fixed into this human vantage point, which, you know, is necessary and fine, but, you know, there's times when all kinds of amazing shit happens, when we can step out of that and swing around and look at it through a different set of eyes, whether that's through the spirits or through trance work, or, you know, whatever it is, I think it ... That for me is one of the most valuable things, it's like ... And specifically for me, it's been a helpful question to go to the spirits and ask, all right, what's my blind spot, like what am I completely not seeing, what am I fucking up, what am I mistranslating, you know, how am I failing to see this in a way that would be more helpful or more coherent or, you know, whatever it is?  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Yeah. Never underestimate the human capacity to rationalize stuff and avoid looking at the things, right? for sure.  JASON: Mmmhmm.  FABEKU: Yeah.  ANDREW: So, how often are people checking in? In this way? How often, how often do you check in on this kind of thing, like ask for that kind of feedback?  FABEKU: For me, it's an almost daily thing, in smaller ways, you know, it's ... whether that's through divination or through, you know, starting the day with sitting with the spirits and listening and asking, you know, and then probably, you know, sort of larger more structured-ish ways, but you know, I think for me, the more I've plugged into this idea of different vantage points, the more I've realized the value of it and the necessity of it, so it feels ... It feels off to me not to check in frequently at this point. you know, it's ... and not in a weird tell me what to do way, it's not that thing at all ... It feels like, sometimes it feels like driving with my eyes closed, and it's like, yeah, I don't need to do that, let me just check in with ...  [laughing]  FABEKU: The spirits or whatever it is, to make sure I'm not headed toward the fucking ditch, or over a cliff or you know whatever ... So for me it's a pretty constant thing.  JASON: Yeah, it, for me, it's, you know, it's similar to how we check in with other people. I mean, if I have something short that I need to hear from one of you guys, I might text you, and you'll text me back, and it takes just a minute, and there are experiences like that, with the spirits through dreams, through signals, through a brief appearance or a divination throughout the week, and then there's formal like, you know, let's set some time aside to chat by Zoom or have coffee or something, and those are sort of akin to the "It's Saturday, I'm going to sit down and do my thing for Cyprian and see what he has to say." So you know? It's that mix of formal and informal two-way communication, because sometimes it's them being like, hey, dumbass! [laughing]  ANDREW: Right. Definitely. Sometimes it's like that tap on the shoulder. Sometimes it's a smack on the back of the head, right.  AIDAN: [laughing] Totally. ANDREW: You know. Yeah. And I feel like it would be . ... It would make me feel cool to say that I, you know, never got to the smack in the head level, but, you know, it totally happens, right? Like it ... It's one of those things that I think that there's this notion that we'll go down these kinds of roads and we'll get clear and focused and you know we'll discover our true will or whatever, and we'll just be like, now I'm a laser and I'm on focus and on target and everything just continues, but it's not really like that, it's such a wandering meandery thing and life keeps sort of pulling at it, for me anyway, for me all the time, whether it's like, stuff with my kids, stuff with the house, stuff with the business, stuff with this, and it's like, oh yeah, wait wait, I'm getting unfocused again, thanks for the tap on the head, now I have to go back to it, you know.  FABEKU: you know it reminds me, there's a proverb that ... from Ifa, that says we lose the way to find the way, and that to me has been one of the most useful things that I've learned, because, for me anyway, there never has been that point of okay, I've anchored into the thing, and I'm set, and I'm good, and everything just flows fine from here. It's just, I don't, I don't have that experience of things. So, you know, I look at this kind of losing of the way, whether it's a little mini thing or a great big detour in the middle of who knows where, is, just, to me that's the process, as annoying as it is, and I find it super fucking annoying, I have no enlightened perspective on that at all, I find it incredibly annoying.  AIDAN: [laughs] FABEKU: But annoying and common, so ... AIDAN: Well, I think too, it's like Dan John, who's a strength coach, he says, "Everything works, until it doesn't." [laughing] Right? If we would like to have this sense where we could kind of find that track that is perfect all the time, but in reality, whether, no matter what it is, you get your three weeks, month, three months, year, and then you come off the rails, cause things just need to change, you're totally different, the situation is totally different. And you have to adapt to that.  JASON: Honestly, it's a good measure for people, especially at the beginning, where they're still sort of differentiating, am I projecting, or am I perceiving something? If the spirit you're talking to is always agreeing with you and always affirming you, and ... that's you in your fantasy. [laughing]  FABEKU: Yes, yes, yes.  AIDAN: Absolutely.  FABEKU: yeah. AIDAN: Yeah. That's something we've talked about a lot here, is that's the main sign, right, if they don't periodically go, dude, do this instead ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm.  AIDAN: And you're like, "what, I don't want to do ... " And it's like, "yeah, do it instead," [laughing] then I think we're probably doing pretty well here ... [laughing]  ANDREW: Exactly. They come through like, go ahead, knock yourself out, I'll be waiting here when you're tired and you want to like [cross-laughing 00:17:17]  AIDAN: [laughing]  ANDREW: Yeah. Well, this kind of leads into a question that somebody asked, you know, what do people think about destiny in relationship to this, right? Like We're talking about our attempt to stay focused or stay online and the values and trials of meandering off track a bit. Where's destiny in this mix? What do people think here?  Mmm. [laughter] That's what we think!  FABEKU: Well, here's [inaudible/static 00:17:55] just making it up. [static 00:17:56 through 00:18:03] is I think there's this fixed elements, and then there's elements that are in flux, right? you know I don't have a sense that everything is somehow laid out, and again, who the fuck knows? And I think that there are probably some elements that are set. What those are, no idea, I'm sure they're probably different for everybody, I think most of the other pieces are kind of in play, and there's some flux to those. you know how do we figure those out, I don't know, the way I figure it out is kind of a mix of divination, but probably even more than that, it's, you know pushing against it magically: does this budge? What does it do? How does it respond when ...? When I point magic at it? Does it flex, does it push back, does it change, does it, you know, tell me to go fuck myself? What does it do when magic gets pointed in that direction? but yeah, so for me, it feels like a mix, so I think, at least in my experience, it feels like there's more that's in flux than not in flux. you know I kind of struggle with the idea that it's all kind of mapped and laid out and we just all kind of somehow run our way through it, that doesn't seem consistent with my experience at all.  ANDREW: Mmm. Yeah. I tend to think of it like traveling through outer space, right? So there's tons of space, right? There's tons of free will. There's tons of like, we can move in many directions. But I also think that when we're plotting our course and stuff, we encounter gravity, right? from stars, from planets, from whatever, some of those we might want to go directly to for some reason, some of those we might just find ourselves near as we're going by. And you know as we proceed through our lives, the choices we've made, the history of ourselves, you know, they kind of lock us into these different kind of patterns, right, and, but, you know, I think that where this metaphor falls down is some of those things are destined, right? We're inevitably gonna get close to something, and maybe that's put there in our orbit for whatever reasons, right? And, you know, it's kind of that situation that you push, you pull, you're caught in, it's like an episode of Star Trek, right? You're caught in the gravity well, what do you do, right? how do you get out of it? Or do you get out of it? Can you get out of it? you know, and I think that different people's lives have different quantities of these kinds of things, you know, and I also think that the more one pursues magic and spiritual stuff, the more ... If you're doing it well, the freer one becomes and the more ... you know, thrust you have to sort of move in different directions until you don't, right? And I think that that's always the thing, right? It's ... I don't think that we ever become truly free of it entirely. But it definitely doesn't run the show either all the time.  FABEKU: Yeah. Absolutely.  JASON: I rarely think in terms of destiny. And I think I probably divine less than a lot of people too. I'm [clears throat] I was watching an old episode of House recently, and if you've ever seen it, he never tests for anything, he's just like you know we think it might be this, let's give the treatment, and if they get better, we'll know that's what they have, and if not, we still have to keep going. And I remember sitting there and thinking like, you know, that's a little bit like how I deal with magic ... [laughing]  ANDREW: mmm.  JASON: you know, well, let's throw this at it and see if that works, and you know, I guess it's not that I don't ever feel destiny or sense destiny, I try to ignore it. And I just feel like if I ... The best decisions are made without that in mind. For me.  AIDAN: Yeah. I'm kind of with Jason on that. I think that there's something, whether you want to call it destiny or fate or whatever that's present, but it's kind of like, you know I take everything back to the physical just on a constant, it's kind of like our genetics, and not in some kind of, you know, racialist kind of way, but like, I'm 5'10" and I'm not gonna be a great NBA player no matter what. [laughing] And so there's things that are like that. I think that go on in magical practice, and that's one of the kind of processes that I think we all go through is that we figure out what works for us and what doesn't. And you kind of have to learn to not bang your head too much against the things that just consistently don't work. And so on that level, I think that's real, I think that there's some stuff each of us are better at. But as far as like ... And I also get your kind of gravity concept, cause there's definitely things that I get pulled to really hard. But I think that that's like my allies assisting, like, you should totally go check this out ... ANDREW: mmm. AIDAN: More than I think it's anything like fate or destiny.  ANDREW: All right. Wizards 4, destiny zero.  [laughing]  ANDREW: So, another question that we got asked here was, you know, as often comes up, you know, especially when Aidan's gonna be on the show, about trance work and meditation and stuff, right? But I know that Jason's also a master meditator, you know? [laughing]  ANDREW: I hear wonderful things about his course and so on, so. But, you know, I guess, you know, the question's sort of like, someone was asking to share what really sort of comes from that, like what's an example of how that really changed something for you or for all of us, you know, so but let's frame it more generally. What do you get from that practice? How does it serve you? And why might people want to ... want to dig into that more, you know? Let's start with the master meditator.  [laughing]  JASON: well, so, you know, are we talking meditation or trance? Cause they're ....  ANDREW: Well, they put them together, so.  JASON: So for me they're really radically different things.  AIDAN: I ... FABEKU: Yeah, for sure.  JASON: In trancework, if, you know, if what I see is important, I'll follow it, and, you know, take it on that journey. In meditation I'm learning to rest in the natural state of my awareness. So, if, you know, the virgin Mary walks up to me, picks up her skirt, and says, "follow me," I'm supposed to go, "sorry, I'm meditating, you know, I'll save five minutes after the meditation [laughs] but you know I'm focused on this thing right now." And so that's the ... if a Buddha appears on the road, kill it. And what I get out of it is a grip on what my own mind feels like. It's first of all, it ... when things arise, that are momentary wants, you know, I really want a burger with a lobster on top, but what I should have is a salad [laughing], meditation helps say, okay, you know, release that thought, focus on, you know, what the will is all about. But it's also when I sense things from spirits and they're not audible, like I can hear them with my physical ear, I can ... you get an idea of what your own mind feels like, and what input is, as opposed to fantasy. So, you know, there's just tons of benefits for meditation. All of which can sort of be reached through other things. But then it's a matter of, do you want 100 different things to get these 100 benefits, or do you want to do just the one thing? That is unfortunately antimagical for a lot of people. It's the hardest thing to get students to do. They, you know, they really don't like it. [laughing]  ANDREW: Mmmhmm.  AIDAN: Yeah, that's ... I ... for me, yeah, they're totally different things, and kind of similarly, meditation for me is kind of just how I get to ground zero. Like, what's going on with me? Where is the continuous chatter going right now? And can I kind of back away from that and turn the volume down on that so that I can ... yeah, kind of have my own mind for a while, and decide what I really need to do, rather than ... especially now with the Internet [laughs] and 8 million terrible movies on Netflix and Amazon Prime and whatever we all have. We're like in the eon of distraction and so meditation is like a beautiful way of just going, okay, I'm going to take 20 minutes or 10 minutes or an hour or whatever, and I'm going to sit down and not be distracted to the best of my ability which is totally variable depending on the day. And I think it's just ... It's like immeasurably helpful for me is what I would say. But yeah, it's difficult for magicians because we want to do stuff, we want to make change, and so the benefit I would say is that meditation for the magician will help you see what is really, what you really want to change, rather than being kind of caught in distraction, and delusion not in the massive way but in the ... not in the kind of universal way, but just in the small deletions. I really like the ... burger with the lobster sounds great! [laughing]  ANDREW: I'm just wondering if that's a path to one of the things I could get from meditation, that's really what ...  [laughter] AIDAN: I think it's a brilliant idea, personally [laughter] [crosstalking/laughter 00:29:28] ... I'm kind of with the concept! JASON: It's literally on the menu at a place around the corner from here, hamburger topped with lobster meat, at a nice remoulade, it's wonderful ... AIDAN: Oh, man! JASON: Casey's Caboose. But, you know, and you get to this realization that there's nothing that we know that's not coming through our own minds. So I remember sitting there with somebody, some guy, I don't know who he was, he was wearing this weird robe in Bodanat, and he was sitting out, just on the walkway around the great stupa, and he was making a big show of being like really important with his robes and this mala that was like 108 baseball like sized things, and he's sitting there, and all of a sudden he started to get angry at everybody walking by, but, you know, this is also the center of town, people walk by. And at one point he just -- like I'm sitting like 100 feet away from him eating lunch at an outdoor cafe and he like gets up and he's like "People can't see that I'm meditating!" And I'm like, well, I don't know what your robes are for, but you suck at this! Because ... [laughing] You know, ultimately, if we realize how distracted we are with our own just push and pull of every little thing that we ... that's been laid on our minds our whole lives, and if you believe in past lives, then all of that too, like the momentary distraction is just another one of those things. Like the external like the guy walking by is so much less insidious then what do I want for dinner? Or I'm so good at this meditation thing! I'm the best. I'm so clear! [laughter] ANDREW: For sure. FABEKU: You know, for me I think that ... I agree, that meditation and trance are really different things. For me, meditation has been the thing that I go to to reduce the noise that amps the signal. Right? And I think that, you know, whether that's before magical work, facing the day, dealing with hardship, having a difficult conversation, whatever it is, it's the place that I can go that I can turn the volume down on the noise so that the signal is clearer and more easily accessible. And then trance for me is a thing that I would say changes the types of signals that I can access. Right? So it's like it expands the frequency band that I have access to.  And, you know, I think the other useful thing for me with trance, and I think maybe some people do this with meditation but that's not my relationship to it ... There's this transcendent quality to it, and I don't ... what I mean by that is ... again, this kind of goes back to when we get sort of too boxed into our own shit, whether that's a struggle we're facing or our own perspective or whatever it is, when we move into a trance It's like we have the ability to kind of stretch out and shake all that shit off, and in that there's this, there's this sort of expanded capacity, expanded coherence, expanded velocity, all of these things happen. So for me sometimes there's a focus trance work of going to a particular place, working with a particular spirit, or doing a particular type of working, and sometimes there's just this accessing a trance state for that transcendent ability of being able to kind of stretch out and shake all the bullshit out so I can get back to doing whatever it is that I need to do in a way that is clearer and more coherent and more effective.  AIDAN: Totally. Yeah, and for me, the trance thing is like my main kind of spirit contact space. I'm not ... I've never been one that gets super clear messaging when I'm awake. I get enough to work with. But if I actually kind of want in depth communication, that all happens to me ... that all happens for me in trance, and I do a lot of what I kind of think of as body work, though it's not necessarily physical body work there. That's kind of where I do most of my healing work for myself. And yeah, for me it's just the most open space that I can go into in terms of like experiential contact with the spirits. Where I can kind of go into the zone or where I know that I meet those things. And the communication is much clearer and much more two way and it allows them to show me things that I normally, I'm just not that visual when I'm awake. And clear -- you know, eyes open, daytime shit. And then, that's where now I get most of my ritual instruction. That's where that stuff comes from, is the allies that I have, they're so few of them that are kind of continuously ... Not like every day, but you know every once in a while, and that might be every year or two, somebody will go, "You should try this, for a while," and those have all been really huge, huge things for me. They're much more useful than the ones that I come up with when I'm sitting there with a pen and paper going "I want this, I'm gonna do it this way." So. ANDREW: Hmm. FABEKU: Well, and in that way, I think that the trance space, for me, is one of the most effective working spaces. Right? So going back to one of the ideas in chaos magic that, you know, trance or gnosis is required for magic. I don't know that that's entirely true, but for me it's largely true. In terms of the way that I function and the way that I work, and it's not that I can't do magic outside of that space, I do, but there is a difference in the experience, and oftentimes a difference in the results that I have when I do magic in that trance space as opposed to when I don't. So you know I wouldn't necessarily say that it's a required component for everybody, but for me, it's a really profoundly necessary ingredient.  ANDREW: yeah, I think I might be a bit ... Huh. Either my conception of it or my language around it makes it seem like I'm an odd person out in this conversation, or I just have kind of a different approach, you know. I don't really meditate any more. I always feel like I should, like I get this like, you know, right up there with I should eat salad, and I should do whatever, but I find that I spend so much time floating and connected to spirit side, I mean I spend 15 hours a week doing readings and stuff for people, plus whatever other time I'm doing with that, so I'm so continuously connected to that space, and continuously flexing that muscle of, is this me, is this my thought, is this the divination, is this the spirit message, you know so like I'm kind of always working that stuff, in a way that ... I feel like, maybe this is a bad metaphor, but I feel like a personal trainer in that regard, you know? I spend so much time at the gym moving stuff around that I'm not so sure what is left that I need just for myself in that regard?  And then most of what I need for myself in that regard comes through making art and sort of being connected, which is probably where my trancelike stuff happens, you know sitting down with whatever I'm working on, and just sort of channeling stuff through and working in that capacity or going to the places in nature where you know the spirits that I work with more so like to be present and sort of paying attention for signs and omens and communications there? But I feel like that trance space where spirit's accessible to me or messages are accessible to me, sort of almost always continuously just at the edge of my awareness? And so I feel like I can fall into it so easily now that setting aside big chunks of time or sort of regular pieces of practice for it, just haven't seemed super necessary. And when I've sort of buckled down with that should, like I should do this, I'm gonna do this, and you know I do it for a period of time and I don't really notice a particularly big difference, and to some extent I feel like I spend a lot of time showing up and nothing happens, cause they'll be like, "dude, I already talked to you earlier today. I don't know why you're here?" [laughter] ANDREW: you know? I don't have that hamburger you want now, that's not gonna happen, right? So.  [laughter] FABEKU: Well, but to me, I think that's one of ... To me, [static 00:38:54] trance stuff, is that like you said, it becomes accessible, it's right at the edge. So, you know, 20 years ago, it felt like kind of the production to get into that space. Now we ... I close my eyes and take a couple of breaths, and you're there. And so in that way, I think that's another really concrete benefit that's come from doing that work for so long, it doesn't feel like a different state to me, it feels a little like leaning to the left, as opposed to, you know, however it is I'm normally sitting. It's a slight but significant shift at this point.  JASON: Doing inner heat practice, the Timo practice, has really helped [clears throat] move my ... make that trance state much closer and deeper so that I can do what Aidan is talking about, like you know receive those messages down to the details of this is the practice, this is how it should go, and then you know you take it for a spin and then the next time it's like "no, you didn't do that quite right," and then, what's amazing is some of the stuff that I teach professionally is rooted in those kinds of messages, and then when I go to teach it, the spirits are like, well, it was fine for you to be this loose about it, but if you're gonna, you know, we should firm this up, so I'll be like [heavy sigh], there's more I have to add here that I didn't expect [laughing].  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. For sure.  AIDAN: Totally.  ANDREW: Yeah. And I think that, you know, as you say Fabeku, right, you get to this place where it is so close all the time, right? If you're doing that practice, right? you know I mean, I spent a year doing pranayama every day for like an hour, and then doing just sitting meditation for a chunk of time as well, like, you know, all those things, right? But they, this is the downside to being old, they're so far back that I don't entirely remember them as a lived practice as such, you know?  [laughter] ANDREW: That's just like, 20 odd years ago. I don't remember exactly what that's like. I have some documentation and some memories, but it's not ... I know, it's like learning to swim, right? Once you know how to swim, you no longer really think about it anymore, so.  FABEKU: Yeah. ANDREW: Mmmhmm.  AIDAN: And I think that ties into the stuff that Jason teaches in Strategic Sorcery and Sorcerer's Secret, I think? And that I have my versions of in Six Ways, on the kind of energy work, the orbital work and stuff like that, is that yeah, there's a period when you kind of really have to focus on that stuff, until you've kind of got a solid sense of it, and then it's available, unless you kind of just get too distant from it, and then you've got to drop back in, and then you know kind of do the refresher. It's a little bit like, my take on running now that I'm not a runner, it's like, I don't have to run every day, I have to run a little bit to kind of keep all that metabolism still working properly, and if I take too much time out, like I did from being injured, then I actually have to take, you know, maybe eight or 12 weeks to kind of work back up to where I can actually run a couple of miles once a week without it being a big thing, but then I don't have to focus on it as much. And I think that that's just kind of the process of everything, that you've got to kind of put in the ground work, and then once that foundation is built, it allows you some flexibility. It's not like you have to sit and meditate for the same amount of time forever every day or you're fucked. But you start to notice like, oh, my brain is kind of churning nonsense, I probably need to sit a little more.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm.  FABEKU: Well, you know, the way I look at it is, is like a chef, right? In the beginning when they're in training, they have to practice their knife skills, and that means cutting up fuck loads of carrots, day after day after day after day, to get them just right. And then after a period of time when they have that skill, they don't have to think about it, right? you know they just, They have access to the expertise that's come from that and, of course, you don't have to sit and chop piles of carrots forever and ever and ever, but there is that muscle building period, I think, until you get that skill, that muscle memory of it, where you can clear the static, you can move into trance, you can enliven the sigil, whatever it is, you can do the thing, because you've built up the practice, and that, you know, that takes time.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. For sure.  AIDAN: Yeah, and for me, that works for everything, so like, now I'm sure that there are people, just cause I'm talking to people about it, some folks that aren't public practitioners, so I'm willing to talk to them a little bit in the background about some of the Six Ways practices. Like yeah, that, whether it's the reclaiming rite, or the Stars of the Sixth Way, or the scraping, this is like a long process for them, cause it's super new to them, cause they're having to think through all of it, and sit with it, and that whole thing is like, maybe five minutes a day for me.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm.  AIDAN: It's totally effective within that. But it is, it's like I've practiced that thing so much or those things, that I can kind of wander in and go, okay, what needs to happen today, do it, and be back with what else is going on really quickly.  JASON: You get that body memory, and it, you know, it just comes naturally.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. For sure. So, another question we got asked, was what do you see as sort of magicians' roles in the world, you know? Is this a thing that's changing, do you think of yourselves, you know ... we're all public figures to one extent or another, right? Do you see an ... do you see the way in which being a magician and being out in the world is changing? Is it the same as it's always been? Is it even a relevant question for you? What do you think?  JASON: It's starting to get more ... more acceptance. I think. [laughing] It's certainly, you know, it's ... Well, yeah. It's starting to get more acceptance. As for what the role is, in the world, you know, I don't expect, you know, a government funded department to open up any time soon, but you know, there are people at higher levels than I think some people would think that seek intercession of magicians and wizards and such and you guys all know this. But you know the amazing thing is, there is some ad that came across my Facebook this morning that's like, this psychic who works for Courtney Cox and this person and that person, and I was kind of like, you know, every person that's even, you know, nowhere near that level of notoriety, but even just like slightly, it's kind of like, keep this under your hat, like this is not something that should or can get out. But like so, it's more acceptable and, but, and everybody does magic, whether they call it that or not.  ANDREW: Mm. AIDAN: Yeah, I totally think it's just kind of a normal human function. That got lost. As far as like it being clear, cause like I think that it's hard for me to imagine that ... In the time of zero distraction, cause if you were distracted you died, which is like most of our history, that people weren't just massively tuned in to all this shit. And from everything that we can know, from what we tend to think of as primitive cultures or aboriginal cultures, that's true. And so yeah, it's a weird thing in the kind of materialist West, but, it's totally normal to me. So I'm not sure that there's any function that's really different than what there always has been, which is yeah, just kind of attempting to make the changes that you need or people need, and kind of keeping spirit channels open so that we can have something that's a little bit more, to me, more real, than the incredibly synthetic world we've generated.  FABEKU: Yeah, I agree, I don't know that the role is any different at all at this point. I think that One of the things that, and I think this might be why, one of the reasons why, there's been kind of an upswing in the interest in magic is, I think magic gives people a sense of hope, you know, and not in some, you know, kind of fake bullshit rah rah kind of sense, but when you understand that magic gives you the ability to kind of interface directly with sort of the wiring under the board, sort of the things behind the curtain, in work with things that are in flux, and work with things that look and are chaotic and difficult, and you know, somehow kind of slide things in the direction that you'd like them to go, I think it gives people a sense of hope. It gives people a sense of, there are other options than what I had considered. And I think that that's important on an individual level, on a communal level, on a global level, you know, and I think that that matters, and I don't think that's anything new, I think magic has always done that, I think that's probably one of the things that has drawn people to magic forever. But I know in my own conversations with people about it, that's one of the things that people are consistently talking about, is I have a renewed sense of hope that I didn't have before because I get that there are things I can do that make things different than they are now.  ANDREW: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean I think that, as life continues to become more complicated, you know, more challenging in some ways, right? you know I mean it's been a distressing, you know, year or two for a lot of people. I mean it's been a distressing, like, whole lifetime for other people, for sure too, right? But I think that as we run into more challenge, you know, I think that accessing spiritual tools and magic and divination fill that function really well, right? And it's a thing that some people would have turned to family practice, some people would have turned to somebody in their community, some people would have gone to the church for, you know, to kind of make those sort of different kinds of connections and to help make sense of stuff, and I think that certainly, as a diviner, I often feel that I'm in the role of priest, right? They wouldn't necessarily choose it that way. But, you know, if you think about it, you know people come for divination and they come for hope, they come to confess, they come to make sense of things, they come to reorient themselves once they're you know turned around, and you know magic is just really an extension of that or some of those things directly depending on what we're talking about, so, yeah, I think it's really necessary. And I think that it's really, you know, as Jason says, it's, you know, not like some bs tagline on someone's promo, but like, you know lots of people are doing it, and lots of people that you would never imagine are doing this stuff, and I think that, you know, it being a personal and direct practice, or direct engagement, versus sort of like a public show of things is important, you know, as part of that, because I think that we don't want to be the monk with the baseball mala, you know?  [laughing]  ANDREW: Sitting in our robes going, why aren't you giving me more money? Why aren't more famous people coming to me? you know?  AIDAN: Get off the lawn! [laughing]  ANDREW: Get off the lawn! [laughing] JASON: And you know, there's a certain extent to which I think, the, I don't know, the growing multiculturalism, the awareness of sort of non-Protestant culture in North America is acknowledging aspects of magic that are already present in the living traditions of so many other people, from Catholic countries and folk traditions around it, to magic within Buddhism, which is just right out there for you to see, in Tibet and Thailand and India and everywhere, and you know, Afro-Caribbean traditions and so on, and so as people get, for lack of a better word, less white about it, magic gets to be seen as to how it integrates into people's everyday lives without it having to be this very very special thing that I put the robes on and I'm doing in secret and you know, that may make it less special for some people who kind of live and breathe on that, but I think it's a good thing overall.  ANDREW: Well, I also think that the, I mean, maybe not if you're posting on Instagram ... JASON: No, no.  ANDREW: But, magic will ... keep itself secret if it needs to be, right?  JASON: Oh, absolutely. ANDREW: you know I mean I, as a, you know, as an Olocha I have quite a lot of stuff in my house that is the Orishas, you know, either their consecrated vessels, with the mysteries inside, and all the accoutrements that have come from them and so on ... There's a lot of stuff that's around my house, and you know, I've had people who've come and watched the kids for like years, and then one day, they're just like, "Wha - wait, what is THAT?" you know? "What do you mean, it's been there the whole time, you don't know who Elegua is?" They're like, "I know who he is, I just, why is he in your house?" I'm like, "How have you not seen it for like two years?" Right? You know. I mean these things will conceal themselves if they need to as well, so like, that fine balance, I think.  Yep. ANDREW: So, I've got this question, that I think is a really great question. What do you wish people would stop asking?  [laughter] ANDREW: What's the question that you're just like, aw, really? Come on. Jason -- AIDAN: I don't think I have one. The only thing that I do ... crazy [static 00:55:12] We'll wait till the static ends. I do get crazy talisman requests that are like, I want a talisman to make me bulletproof, and it's shit like that that you're just like, yeah, you know, there's a lot of people who have tried that, but I've never heard of it working! [laughing] But, so, other than outright absurdity, I don't really have any.  JASON: Yeah, I get the absurdity sometimes, and they don't really bother me, because I just open them, and I look at it and I go, okay, close. The regular, you know, even though I don't do this work, I've never done this work, but the sort of regular reconciliation at any price ... [chickens in background] ANDREW: Mm.  JASON: Kind of request. That's something that, you know, I just, I wish that would go away. [laughing]  [chickens in background] ANDREW: Right? I think that's a question where "He's now living with my sister, and has 16 kids with him, and I've been separated from this person for 20 years, but I will give you all this money if you can make this person come back and be with me"? That question?  JASON: Yeah! you know? It's just sort of like, I don't want that! No, absolutely not. you know, in some of my courses, that go on for months, I'd have to say the question, it's not even a question, it's a ... the people that are ... [chickens in the background] JASON: The people that are geared to sort of ... [chickens in the background] JASON: Hypervisualization. They can ... They close their eyes and they can see all kinds of stuff. And I'm like this to an extent myself. But it's a matter of like, let's take that and go deeper. Like, let's put that aside for a little while. So, you know, I'll spend the first couple months kind of telling people, ignore these kinds of visions. Or evaluate them, like is this important? Did it tell you something you didn't already know? Or is it just a thumb's up? If it's a thumb's up, take the thumb's up and keep doing what you're doing. If it's something actionable, evaluate it like you would advice from a person. But in general, don't chase after it, like, use the practice ... [chickens in the background] JASON: To get deeper informa -- and then you can start getting stuff that's like, wow this matters. And, because that also, people that aren't like that, who maybe when they get a vision, a message, it will be like really important because they're not prone to that kind of thing, they sort of feel like, well I must be doing something wrong, because so and so has, you know, phantasmagoric trips every time they utter a prayer and I'm not. Whereas I'm kind of like well actually, no, there's nothing wrong with you. And you know maybe that person who gets phantasmagoric trips when they put something out in terms of spell work are not going to get the results you have, because they're great at receiving and not so great at sending or, or when you really receive something, it's going to be like, huh, yeah, that's got meaning and teeth and is something I can dig into.  ANDREW: Yeah. I hit this point in my own practice, especially like working with clients and doing readings and stuff, where, I realized that I had a choice where I could just know what the answer was, or I could have like a big visual thing about it, and I was like [rooster crowing in background] ANDREW: It's so much easier just to know what it is than to like, proceed down into this like vision of it all and stuff like that, and so I sort of started prioritizing a different way and you know submitting my requests like to the other side like so, if you need to show me, please do, but if you can just tell me, that'd be awesome. And then we can go to the next thing, you know?  JASON: [bursts out laughing] ANDREW: It worked pretty well, you know? So.  JASON: But isn't that ... [static] I'm going to wait till the static clears. I think that's one of the great gifts ... [static] Nope. One of the great gifts of that kind of trance work that you guys were talking about before, it's like, you know, I don't need to break reality every time.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm.  JASON: I don't need to sit there and like, no, get in the crystal. No, not in my head, in the crystal. No, not over there, in the crystal. No ... [laughing] you know I don't want to hear about it in a dream, in the crystal.  ANDREW: Yeah.  JASON: So, it's, it's, if you can build a relationship, if you can, you know, develop the capacity to kind of meet the spirit halfway, rather than, I got made fun of once on social magic reactions for calling it fracking, you're basically spiritually fracking reality, like I'm gonna pull the top off this [laughing] just to get to what I want.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm.  JASON: But you know. I stand by it. [laughing]  AIDAN: Yeah. I think that there's a lot to, as you said, just kind of accepting the easy way in, and realizing that a lot of the flash is not necessarily actually helpful, like it can be cool, but it doesn't necessarily actually do what you want, and so in relationship to the stuff that you, whether it's ... I'm not sick of it, but I never have anything to say, because I've got enough people that are aware of what I do. I get kind of the occasional email that's like, "This happened on Thursday," and you get some incredibly abstract Book of the Law kind of thing. What do you think? It's like, [laughing] I have no idea. I don't think anything! I have no concept of your experience, your context, anything else, and it's not my transmission, they're talking to you for some reason, and perhaps that makes sense to you, but it's ... I can try and explain the shit that happens to me, and it's ... in most cases, I don't think it would make sense to other people, frequently. But again, if you can kind of go, can we be pretty straight about it, I don't need it to be fancy looking, I don't need it to be ... Can you show me, you know, I do a lot of things with some of my main kind of allies, it's like [sigh] kind of the inner dialogue is like, put this in my body, let me feel what you want me to feel, don't tell me about it, cause I'm pretty stupid, but if you can kind of cause me to have that sensation then I can use that, and so that's more what goes on for me now.  FABEKU: I think for me in terms of questions, there's two types really, the first is, you know, do I have to believe in magic for it to work? And I understand why people ask that question, but for me, I'm not an evangelist. I don't really give a fuck WHAT you believe. I don't give a fuck IF you believe, and I'm not, I don't think, my approach to this is, you believe it when you believe it, and the only way you believe it is by doing it, so to me the question is, I think the better question is, how do I get started, how do I do this, and not, does it require belief, because I think you can kind of just fuck yourself in a circle going around with that kind of nonsense. My thing is, I don't know, try it and see. you know? There are a million ways to get started that are not terribly complicated, and see what happens? And, you know, if you believe it as you go, great, and if not, fine, but I think that ... I find the question problematic because I think that it creates, it just creates this weird circular motion for people. you know?  And I think the other problematic questions are any question that gives up someone's own sense of sovereignty, right? Whether it's asking me, should I do this? Or kind of deferring that sovereignty to the spirits or the allies or whatever. Those questions are always problematic to me. It's like, I think the same kind of common sense rules should apply to magic as they apply to, you know, any other facet of life and any other interaction you have, and I don't think that we should somehow give up our sense of sovereignty and our sense of agency, by asking what we should do, I think that, that to me feels like a sideways kind of a thing, so those are always questions that I don't like to answer and I really strongly discourage people from asking, because, I think, again, it's just rooted in a perspective that for me feels really problematic.  ANDREW: Yeah, don't ask the spirits for permission for something you want to do.  FABEKU: yeah.  ANDREW: Right? you know? I mean ask them for advice in general, but like, yeah ... FABEKU: Yeah. And I think even asking, you know, should I do this working, I don't know, I can't answer that, you know, you know what you need, you know what you want, you know what's important for you, you know what you're willing to sacrifice in the process, I have no way of answering that question for you, and I shouldn't be the one answering it in the first place.  ANDREW: Hmm. yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's an interesting question, you know, I think that there are, there are definitely times when I ask spirits, especially the Orishas, should I do this, should I do that, but it's more along the lines of like should I, when I moved from the old shop to the new shop, I'm like, should I sign the lease on this place? Should I do this thing? Like, they're more like, and they're not guarantees, but they're like, is there good possibilities here, or is there like, is there a pitfall, you know, that's really what I mean by these shoulds, right? Is this is a space where something can happen, or is there something that you see that I don't see that's gonna make a big hot mess of it, right? But yeah, I think that that quickly and usually turns into something much more problematic, right?  FABEKU: Yeah.  ANDREW: And I find that I, I definitely, I get my share of the bulletproof questions, or the reconciliation stuff, that I'm like, that I'm often like, I'm not that interested in it, and, you know, it doesn't bother me, per se, I'm just like, no thank you, it's not what I do, I guess that the question that I've been getting lately, and I think that I need to set some time to put something out there to sort of counter this, is, you know, since the announcement of the Orisha tarot has happened, I've been getting more emails from people, basically asking me if I will initiate them and make them a priest, and I'm just like, it doesn't even begin to work that way, and you know there's sort of a presumption of, it depends on where they're coming from, but there's often a sort of presumption of entitlement or desire that they're gonna start a road that will take them there, and I'm like, I don't even know you, like number one, it's a permanent lifelong commitment you're asking of me, and number two, you don't even know if this is your path, you feel drawn to it, but that doesn't mean that that's true or helpful or real or valid at this time or ever, maybe, you know, so I think that I need to ... talking about this conversation tells me that I need to put something together and put it out there so I can just sort of point people to things and say, go read this, this will give you a better idea of how this works.  JASON: But Andrew, I read a book about it last week and I'm really really into it!  ANDREW: Yeah? Only one book, not all the books?  [laughter] ANDREW: I'm so disappointed in you, come on, and all the websites, right?  AIDAN: especially the websites, they're, you know, they're the critical source.  ANDREW: The critical source at every juncture, right?  AIDAN: That's it!  ANDREW: [laughing] All right, well, we have been on this call for a long time. I want to thank you all. you know Let's do a quick round of just sort of say where the best place for people to come and find out about you and what you're up to is, and then we'll wrap it up for the day. Aidan? Where should people come connect with you?  AIDAN: AidanWachter.com, AidanWachter on Instagram, Aidan Wachter on Facebook [laughing] All of that. And then Six Ways currently is available strictly through online bookstores, but pretty much all of the big ones. And as I said earlier, we'll try it. We'll be getting those out to stores that are interested in probably the next five weeks.  ANDREW: Jason?  JASON: StrategicSorcery.net. And from there you can find Facebook and all the other places that I might be hanging out.  ANDREW: Definitely. And if you're looking to learn from a meditation master, you should go check that out, because they do fantastic things; you too could get a fancy robe!  [laughter] FABEKU: If you enroll now, get a free baseball mala included with the price.  JASON: yeah, I don't know who that guy's tailor was, but it was awesome. [laughing]  ANDREW: Very nice. Fabeku?  FABEKU: Fabeku.com. ANDREW: And I am either Andrew MacGregor or the Hermit's Lamp, basically everywhere. So. Thanks, gents! Thanks for jumping in and being our fourth today, Jason. It's been a pleasure. JASON: Thank you for having me.  AIDAN: Yeah, super great to have you here.  JASON: I feel honored to be able to play the imaginary instrument in the imaginary band. [laughter] ANDREW: [laughing] May it always be thus.  JASON: [laughing]      You can book time with Andrew through his site here. 

Given the state of the world we need to find better ways to relate to each other and grow. This is exactly what Andrew and Siobhan talk abot in this episode. How to find our way towards grpowing and undoing the conditinoing of history. This converstaion is about finding posibilities, opening to others and working to change the world for the better.  The link Siobhan mentioned, an inquiry practice for allies: https://radicaltarot.com/7-questions-earnest-allies/   A link they wish they'd mentioned, where I'm talking about oppression and sliding scales in spiritual business:  https://radicaltarot.com/lets-talk-about-sliding-scales/   Their newsletter (best way to keep in touch): http://bit.ly/radicaltarotsubscribe   Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here.    Transcript  ANDREW: Welcome to the Hermit's Lamp podcast. I am hanging out today with Siobhan, who is a card reader who I know through the tarot community, but who I really wanted to sort of have on the podcast and sort of talk about politics and identity, and how we interact with each other, and how we can try and have better, more humane, more open conversations about what's going on with each other and in the world right now.  Because I feel like in a lot of the spiritual communities, there are, you know, some awareness of these things, and then there are places where there's just no awareness, and so I thought that Siobhan would be a great person to have on and talk about some of this stuff and see what comes of it. But for people who don't know who you are, who are you? What are you up to?  SIOBHAN: [laughing] Well. I am, primarily, a tarot reader and writer. I write most often at LittleRedTarot.com, which is an intersectional alternative space, and I also write at my website at RadicalTarot.com. I spend a lot of time writing about the intersections that I live on. And so, that might look like writing about race, writing about other marginalized groups, writing about chronic illness, or mental health issues. And so, I spend a lot of time writing about political topics, although, you would never believe it, I'm not really as political of a person [laughing], not usually, but my writing does tend to be pretty authentic and pretty raw in talking about my experience in marginalized communities. So, that's a lot of what I end up doing. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. And -- so -- Siobhan and I have been talking for a while about being on the podcast, and for a variety of reasons it keeps getting nudged into the future, until today. But one of the things that sort of surfaced recently was sort of a conversation which we were both a part of, around ... Not to give away sort of personal information but, somebody was called out for a behavior, and, you know ... And, and, you know, sort of Siobhan and I were sort of both the voices in that conversation that kind of migrated towards, “Well, there is something to what they're saying, there's something that we could consider, right?”  SIOBHAN: Mmmhmm. Mmmhmm. ANDREW: You know, and so, it kind of reminded me that this was the conversation I wanted to have ... SIOBHAN: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And, you know, I think that there's ... You know, we live in interesting times, right?  SIOBHAN: Right! [laughs] ANDREW: Where, the ways in which people have access to each other, the ways in which people treat each other, especially online but also in lots of other places, you know, it's often really unclear to me whether ... What's helpful and what's not, right?  SIOBHAN: Right.  ANDREW: You know, and so ... Yeah, I'm just wondering ... Because your response was so wonderful, I'm wondering, you know ... SIOBHAN: [laughing] ANDREW: If you could sort of share a little bit of what that idea was, you know?  SIOBHAN: It's so funny. Yeah, you know, the first thing that pops up when you talked about that, was a post I wrote, actually, a very similar time of year, maybe two years ago, and it was in response to Kelly-Ann Maddox's #TarotSoWhite discussion. I don't know if you saw any of that. But the dialogue came up around how many decks there are that have representation, how many diverse decks that there are, and so, it was an interesting time, because it was the first time I had ever heard anyone sort of call out this notion of the tarot space being predominantly white, predominantly occupied by a certain demographic. And I want to say, I had mentioned it briefly in a tarot chat, and then it came up later again and again, but the dialogue was pretty interesting and fruitful at the time. And it was funny, because the piece that I wrote in response, actually was contrary to the original callout. [laughing]  So, whereas the original assertion was, there aren't very many decks with people of color, I wrote, “Well, actually, there could be more, way more ...” At the time, it was two years ago. “But they do exist, and to reference them as if they don't is erasure.” And I remember at the time having a really sweet conversation with Kelly-Ann, where she realized how many different options were available that actually she hadn't seen yet, and it was really amazing to get closer to her and to dialogue in that way, and it went really well.  And so, at the time, I didn't have the concept of a call-in, versus a call-out, and you'll hear those terms more commonly in feminist spaces, people talking about drawing attention to a behavior or activity that they saw that could be problematic, in a way that may be perceived as shameful versus as an invitation to dialogue, to go deeper and to learn something. And so, I didn't even have a concept of that, at the time, I just responded with pure emotion. It was a very emotional summer, I want to say, there were a lot of acts of violence that had just happened, in the news. Perhaps the first of the series that kicked off all the -- I know it's hard to remember a time when it wasn't [laughing] -- all the time. ANDREW: Yeah. SIOBHAN: It was less visible then, so it was the first instance. And so, yeah, this conversation has just gotten bigger and deeper in the spiritual community and also in other communities, and now, people who have never encountered any sort of idea about their own privilege, or about the experiences of marginalized groups, are now encountering these experiences, and not everybody who calls people out necessarily has the space to do so in a way that is kind or compassionate, and not everybody who is called out or in necessarily knows that there is any information to glean from it.  And so, it's so interesting to watch these conversations happen. [laughing] It's a very primordial time for these discussions. It's very new to many people. And it's worth it and it's exciting, but there's also issues when it can be tender.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: Times when it can be tender.  ANDREW: Yeah, I mean, I think it's ... I mean, it's challenging on many levels, right?  SIOBHAN: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And I think that for people in all of the positions to have openness to where other people are coming from ... SIOBHAN: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And openness to being present and sort of curious about the process. SIOBHAN: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: You know? I mean, it's really tough, and certainly, at times, not possible or not even appropriate.  SIOBHAN: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: But, it's one of the things that I dug about your, you know, your response in that conversation was, you really were like, “Huh. Well, that's really interesting. Okay, where are you coming from? What is that about? What does that mean?”  SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: You know, there was a curiosity to it, right?  SIOBHAN: Right.  ANDREW: And I think that it's such a powerful place to be, right? Like, curiosity and openness are so profound when we can find our way to those positions ... SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: But, you know, it's certainly not easy, right? Or, and you know ... and definitely not always possible or appropriate. SIOBHAN: Right. It's the edge of the cliff. ANDREW: Right?  SIOBHAN: It's that full space.  ANDREW: Yeah. SIOBHAN: And to even just -- I remember in that conversation, the topic we were talking about was so unfamiliar to me, in a way, I said to myself, it had never occurred to me to be mindful of this thing that even you're bringing up, now I can know, moving forward, to think about this marginalized group which I had not considered, when I create and when I collaborate and when I support. And to really be humble in that moment, and to notice my own privilege, having not had to think about it ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: And owning that to. A lot of ... There's a lot of assumptions made about who has privilege to check, and it's so many more people than you would imagine, so many more kinds ... I've been really exploring the privilege of someone who -- if you're a person who, if you're photogenic, if you're pretty, if you're thin, if you have money, there's so many different ways to look at it. It's so much deeper than just well, there's a binary and everyone on this end is victimized and everyone on this other end is victimized and not everybody on both sides of it have that awareness. And so, once you realize [laughing] that fact, it behooves you to be curious, because there's so much to learn.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: There's so many different angles to really realize where you have been blessed and where you continue to not be blessed based on things that are circumstances, perhaps. And it's very hard at times, but it can also be interesting, if a person has the space, you know.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Yeah, I remember, a couple of years ago now, I did this really long, like 100 or 150 question survey that sort of evaluated your privilege, right? SIOBHAN: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And, you know, it wasn't like ... I've seen some shorter ones since then and I'm always kind of like, I look at them, and ah, it's like, it makes some sense, but this one was so in depth, and I remember, like, going through and sort of like answering the questions and seeing ... Seeing things that, you know, clearly highlighted my privileges, you know, for me. Like, oh yeah, that's totally me, I totally have, I have access to that, you know.  SIOBHAN: Right, right.  ANDREW: I went to university, right?  SIOBHAN: Right.  ANDREW: I did this, I did other things. And then all these other things that I never even -- I mean, many of which I was totally aware of but some of which I didn't even really consider part of the conversation, right?  SIOBHAN: Right.  ANDREW: You know, and things that I didn't have, that I was like, hmm, interesting.  SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: And then I started to think about the ways in which, you know, certain kinds of situations around family structures and other things, you know, and the historical family structures ... SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: You know, whether your families stay together or don't stay together ... SIOBHAN: Right.  ANDREW: How those ... like, so many layers of conversation ... SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: Can impact these experiences, you know?  SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: Yeah. And to me, that's where that curiosity comes in, right?  SIOBHAN: Mmmhmm, mmmhmm. ANDREW: How did this shape me or shape somebody else? How do these forces exist in our culture?  SIOBHAN: Right.  ANDREW: Why is one structure prioritized over another?  SIOBHAN: Right. Right. And then as consciousness deepens, and as awareness deepens, how do I transform or transmute all of the pain that I'm now aware of? [laughing] ANDREW: Right? Yeah. SIOBHAN: My own, and also society, because it's a lot. And it seems overwhelming at times when you really open up to that awareness, and which is why some people will choose, unconsciously or consciously, not to be aware of it.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Well, and that brings us to a topic we were chatting a little bit about before the call, which is this spiritual bypassing piece, right?  SIOBHAN: Mmm. ANDREW: You know. When do we suddenly try and use, you know, a spiritual tool to skip our pain or skip our privilege or skip something else? You know? Instead of, instead of actually digging into it, you know? When do we avoid that shadow work?  SIOBHAN: Right.  ANDREW: Instead of like, honoring the wholeness of our experience and dealing with it all ... SIOBHAN: Right.  ANDREW: And then what kind of things come from that, right?  SIOBHAN: Right. Is it at that moment of realization when you open to ...? How much is really happening, how many different layers ... First of all, if you're still in it, there's that space of, oh gosh, how do I hold this for myself, and if you aren't in it, if you have traversed and if you have some kind of mobility, and this is more common as we interact across the streams of privilege, you know. I have access to all kinds of things through people who have access even though I don't have the access, and now there's this opportunity for guilt, this sense of unworthiness, or even thinking about, oh my gosh, my ancestors, they had this thing, they did this thing, and now I feel this sense of guilt over that.  And so, there's an opportunity, or a ... More accurate to say, a tendency to say, with spiritual practice, to say, okay, being spiritual, having arrived, being enlightened, that means I don't get to feel those things any more. [laughing] I get to be somewhere other than those things, because it's not holy to feel guilty, unworthy, you know, anger, hostility, it's not holy to feel afraid of things that are different, they mean, these things are not spiritual things, and so ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: We hear a lot of talk about quote, letting it go. ANDREW: Right.  SIOBHAN: I mean, it's so popular to talk about letting it go. This is a pet peeve of mine. [laughing] ANDREW: Uh huh. Tell me all about it!  SIOBHAN: [laughing] If you read my stuff, you'll hear me going on about it all the time cause it's like, we want to let the things go that are the darkest things, that are, they keep returning because they're very deeply embedded in our ancestral story or our own story or maybe just because it's a part of us, or we haven't integrated it, we reject it, and so there it is again.  And so, the notion that we can continuously keep trying to let something go, rather than just sit with it, you know, which is awful, and terrible, and we often don't want to do it, but, sometimes when we are able to just sit with it, without the judgement call, what this means, what this means about who I am, then, it has less of a pull, you know, even when it shows up. But it's counterintuitive, so instead of doing that, everybody ... You know, it's very popular in the spiritual community to want to let go, we're gonna let go, every full moon we're gonna let go! [laughing] And it's like all right, that's ... We can keep it up, I guess. [laughing] ANDREW: Yeah, I mean, I think that there comes a point, you know ... I have this body of work that I created called the Letting Go Work, right?  SIOBHAN: [laughing] I'm sorry.  ANDREW: And so, but the focus of the work is ... is actually to go and sit down with your shadow, right?  SIOBHAN: Right.  ANDREW: It's not ... It's not this process of like, you know, and then I'm gonna go into the spiritual bath and shower all this stuff off me, it'll go down the drain, it's gone forever.  SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: It's the process of building conscious communication with the shadow stuff ... SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: And then sustaining it on the regular ... SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: So that, you know, you're checking in with that, and so your shadow has a chance to say, hey, you're ignoring this crap over here.  SIOBHAN: Right! ANDREW: Hey, what about this? Hey, this is ... You know, you're being inauthentic or you're denying something, right?  SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: Or you're really mad, you've got to let it out, dude. Because if we can talk to that stuff, and sit with it and be present with it and engage with it, then we have a whole different relationship to it. Right?  SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: But like, Carl Jung did not say when we get through the process of individuation that our shadow is gone.  SIOBHAN: Right. Poof!  ANDREW: We're living in relationship with it then, right?  SIOBHAN: Poof!  ANDREW: It matters. SIOBHAN: [laughing] ANDREW: Exactly. SIOBHAN: Yeah! And it's like, if a person comes from a place where they're not wanting to do that work, that very needed work of upholding space for this thing, then there's no way they would be able to, when they actually encounter that shadow out in the world. So this person who is marginalized in ways they can't understand, the person who doesn't have the privilege they have, if that person calls out to them, in the same way their shadow calls out to them, why would they have a different reaction? They would do the same thing. It would encourage that person to let it go. It would encourage that person to speak in terms of love and light and always gravitate toward and pay attention to love and light and they would say, ignore the things that don't meet or match that paradigm, the same way they say to themselves, and so ...  I always, there's a little part of me that kind of dies, when I hear someone say, “Turn, you know, turn your attention entirely away from this thing that is so much a part of you and so much your struggle and that you're feeling.” Cause it's like, people need that space for themselves, before they can have and hold space for other people, they're very much linked, and the notion that we can get away is somewhat contrary to the notion that we're all part of one great big thing, which is underneath a lot of spiritual practices anyway. ANDREW: Right. Well, there's definitely that. Yeah. It's one of the best pieces of advice I got when I first started working as a reader, was a good friend of mine basically was like, “So dude, make sure you deal with all your crap.”  SIOBHAN: [bursts out laughing] ANDREW: Deal with it, deal with it all, stay clean, you know, stay clear about it, work to stay free of it, because otherwise you're going to sit down with somebody and try and work and their pain is going to trigger your pain ... SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: And then it's going to go all sorts of sideways, right?  SIOBHAN: Right.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: Right. A business is amazing for really shining the light on every crevice that you thought ... [laughing] that you were done with! ANDREW: Right?  SIOBHAN: Oh, what about this? What about this here? [laughing] What about this thing that isn't finished?  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: Yeah. There's a ... a lot more compassion that could stand to be doled out in all directions. [laughing] ANDREW: Right? Inwardly as well, you know? All of it. Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: In all the directions. ANDREW: Yeah. So. What, what ... I'm going to put you on the spot here, okay, so forgive me. SIOBHAN: [laughing] ANDREW: You can opt out if you need to. SIOBHAN: [laughing] ANDREW: But like, what would you hope somebody would do if they were ... If they run into something new that they weren't aware of ... Would be kind of a problematic thing? You know, whether it's ... whatever its focus is, gender, race, or any number of sort of different things, but like ... What would you hope that people, how would they react?  SIOBHAN: Oh, man! It's tricky. And I say that because the answer would depend in a large part on who that person was. And here's what I mean. There's a spectrum. If a person had an abundance of energy and awareness and privilege and time, it would be really nice if we could have that curiosity response like, Oh! Why is this coming up? you know? Is there something to learn here? Is there something I don't know? Is there ... You know. I acknowledge that this has nothing to do with me because anything anyone ever says generally has nothing to do with anyone, because they're all dealing with their projections, but at the same time, is there something I could learn, if they had that space, but the honest to god truth is that some people, whatever their sense of abundance or privilege or access or whatever they have, they may not have the space.  And a second-best thing, in that scenario, would be if they could actually see that they don't have the space. So that looks like, Wow, I don't know what to do with this, but I know at least that I'm feeling a defensive response that I want to prove something and so maybe I'll just pause, and that's it.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: Just a pause where they can see and be with the fact that that's what they have the space for, they have the space for maybe, a pause, and even getting to the point of pause is HUGE. You know, cause the natural thing to do is just react ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: Savor, be right or reassure, whatever the deal is, and it would be amazing to even have the choice in a moment, and so, having the choices coming from working on things before you were even in the situation [laughing]. So, it's really hard to say, oh man, curiosity, willing to be open to possibly having missed something, possibly not knowing something, possibly being wrong. And, it depends on the person and if they have space. I actually wrote an entire blog post about that very thing you just asked. [laughing] ANDREW: Well, perfect! We'll put a link in the show notes. SIOBHAN: It was the most viewed blog post I ever wrote, and I wrote it that summer that we were just talking about ...  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: Right before that whole discussion cause, it was just so painful to see so much death and to be reminded that no matter how much you progress, or at least in my instance, how much I had progressed and how much better I felt. Yet within, that there were still those dark things that were my reality, that may be my reality, without, and so in there it really encourages people to have a dialogue with what they need, really, first, because if they don't know, they can't, they can't offer anything. They have to come first, and they have to also acknowledge a reality in which they may be coming first many places without any effort on their part. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: They may be central, they may be primary, they may be the first thought for entire nations. [laughs] And so, there's the thought for: Do I have the space for the person who unlike me, doesn't come first, in my nation, in my society? And being honest about that. Because some people have a culture that is ingrained and it's very fragile, and they actually may not know all that they may be capable of, they may not have been invited to step into their fullness just yet. And so the kneejerk reaction, which is natural and human ... It might be much smaller than they're capable of being. And so it can be exciting to think about interaction with a person where they actually realize more their resilience. ANDREW: Hmm. SIOBHAN: And they say, Oh, I've felt defensive and offended every time this has ever happened in my whole life, and maybe I have room for more reactions.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: You know?  ANDREW: Yeah. SIOBHAN: Maybe I have room for more than just my central and my primaryness. Maybe based on that solid self-care, you know, first step, I have more resilience than I thought. More capacity to notice when I'm expecting someone else to be resilient in my stead. And maybe perhaps a habit I have of doing that all the time. [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah. SIOBHAN: You know? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Well, and I also think that pause is such a great notion. Because I think that ... I think that we don't always even understand what we might do, or how we might do it, or what could be possible?  SIOBHAN: Mmmhmm.  ANDREW: Or what might shift to make things possible over time. SIOBHAN: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Like one of the things for me is, you know, I was aware for a while that this podcast was inaccessible to a bunch of people, right?  SIOBHAN: Mmmhmm, mmmhmm. ANDREW: You know, because they are unable to listen, you know? And, you know, and it took me awhile, like maybe six months of pondering that and then looking at what it would cost me to provide transcriptions. And then looking at my wallet and being like, “I can't do that.”  SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: And then thinking about it and looking at options, and then, you know, it wasn't until one day ... And I was aware of Patreon the whole time, you know, which is like this sort of people pay per episode to support stuff.  SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: I was aware of it the whole time, but I don't even remember what happened, but somebody talked about it in a certain way. And I was like, “I could use Patreon to make that happen,” you know?  SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: And then that took a little bit of time, you know? And then now, every episode comes out with transcriptions. SIOBHAN: That's cool! ANDREW: You know, which is, which is, exciting, right? But like, but, if I had gotten stuck at I can't do this -- I was stuck at I can't do anything about this today. And left it at that, then it wouldn't be where it is now. You know? And that's one of the things that can come from the pause, right? SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: It can come from, you know, it's just like, putting a little sign up on the wall that says this is a thing I'd like to do at some point, somehow. SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: I'd like to change this issue, and then, and then, hopefully, time and circumstance shift in a way that allows it to be resolved ... SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: You know? You get an idea to do something different. And maybe it doesn't, you know, I mean, because there are still times when offering stuff like that is beyond the means of whatever it is that I'm doing, you know?  SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: Some of the classes that I run are fairly small, and so it's not super possible, but, you know, we can set our intentions and we can ponder these things, and they can sort of open us up to other possibilities, right?  SIOBHAN: Right, right.  ANDREW: Yeah.  SIOBHAN: That's a powerful example. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: That's a really powerful example. Especially the notion of, even if I can't do this thing right this second, I have space to think about it. ANDREW: Yeah. SIOBHAN: You know, because some people, they file it away under, “I can't do that. The end.” And then they never have to think about it again. Like they're absolved. This is that bypassing coming up. It's like, “I couldn't in this one instance implement it, so I won't worry about it.”  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: But when there's a willingness to stay with it, to stay with this other reality that isn't yours, in that perfect example that you just gave, more is possible, eventually.  ANDREW: Yeah. And also, you know I think that it's also important to understand that perfect isn't the goal. Right? SIOBHAN: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: I mean, perfect would be lovely if it existed anywhere. Right?  SIOBHAN: Right. [laughing] ANDREW: But when we're working on these things, perfect can't be the goal. You know, because I think, at least for me, perfect equals immobilization. Right?  SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: Perfect equals this space where I just can't continue because, you know, because I can't get there. Right? You know? I mean, there's nothing about my life that allows me enough time and space to make anything perfectly ... SIOBHAN: Right.  ANDREW: So I pursue just sort of working on stuff, right?  SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: And I think that that's part of the ongoing sort of dialogue between curiosity and openness too, right?  SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: Recognizing I will do my best, or what I perceive to be my best now ... SIOBHAN: Mmm. ANDREW: And then we'll see what happens, and then I will engage with what happens afterwards, and then I will adjust, and improve, or change or whatever if I have space for that.  SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: Continue that process, right? Like it's not this sort of unfolding of this awareness of privilege in North America. SIOBHAN: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: I mean, I've been watching it flow for a while now, and it's not done, it's going to be done soon, it's going to continue, right?  SIOBHAN: [laughing] Right.  ANDREW: And that's, that's not even because ... Like, it would be tempting to be like, well, if everybody just accepted it, or was on board, or whatever, but I'm like, well no, because it's also a process of undoing, right? SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: And when you start moving stuff, you start having space to see other things. SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: And that doesn't mean that we shouldn't move anything because, you know, cause we'll find the dust bunnies under the couch, or, you know, whatever ... SIOBHAN: Right! [laughing] ANDREW: It's like, we should move those things and then we should move other things, and then we should see what's beyond that, right?  SIOBHAN: Right.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: Exactly. Yeah. And the notion ... The notion of doing our best is interesting also when we consider that nothing ... there may not be an occurrence in our lives that actually calls on us to consider perspectives outside of our own. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: And that's where the notion of resilience can come in. For the person who is used to staying in their own perspective, they are only so large. There is only so much that is possible. Which is why tarot can be useful. When you come together with people over tarot, there's another perspective that's introduced. We do this in interpersonal relationships of all kinds, sure. And the person who doesn't have that playback, or the person who is isolated from cultures that they've never met, they're never going to come across a person with this worldview, their concept of their best might be limited. It may not even reflect the reality for them. And so it's exciting to think about people being expanded, and their notion of what's possible being expanded as a result of all these dust bunnies that we keep finding.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Yeah. Yeah, and when I grew up, I grew up in a suburb of Toronto. And, you know, when I went to high school, I think that, you know, in a school that probably had like 1000 students, there might have been a handful of people of color, you know?  SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: Like, one table at the lunchroom was like, people of color, and that was it, you know? And that was indicative of the whole town, right? And, you know? And now as we open to that stuff, you know, and as we open to other cultures, we can, you know, expand more and figure things out differently, right?  SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: And I think that it's easy to sort of look around, in, you know, and I always say, cause I live right in downtown Toronto now, right? Like one block from the gay village, and, you know, and in one of the most sort of diverse neighborhoods around, kind of thing.  SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: And, you know, it's easy to sort of think that this is also it, right? You know? And when I travel to other places, I'm like, oh no. I live in a little pocket that is SO different than everywhere else, right?  SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: And I mean not everywhere else, but like many other places, in a kind of a counterforce to that sort of living in the suburbs experience, you know, I now live the opposite, but both of them create their own limiting tunnels, right?  SIOBHAN: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: You know, I think it's ... I think it's really interesting to sort of try and understand what we're not living, wherever we're living, right? However we're living that, and sort of see what other people are actually up to.  SIOBHAN: Right. Right. And really honor our blinders.  ANDREW: Mmm. SIOBHAN: I ... Only in the last ten years, have I really appreciated the fact that I belong to the global majority. [laughs]  ANDREW: Mmmhmm! SIOBHAN: It's like, it's been the case for longer than that, but only in the last five to seven years, really, has that sat with me, and I had to go and seek out communities where they would discuss those things, for it to really become a part of my awareness.  ANDREW: Right. SIOBHAN: So, it's not even necessarily an appearance grants you access into different perspectives, you know?  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: It's a dialogue that you keep having, and keep needing to be willing to have in order to keep learning.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Well, and I think that willingness to have it is such an important thing, right? And from my perspective, for me personally, willingness to get out, you know?  SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: To look for it, and look for people who have the space to have that dialogue with me, right? SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: Because you want to be mindful that you're not sort of expecting ... SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: Somebody else to educate you, or whatever. Right? It's a thing that you should ask permission about, right?  SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: And, you know? Because otherwise we don't want to expect that I'm gonna run to this person and be like, so tell me all about this disability that you've got ... SIOBHAN: Right! [laughs] ANDREW: How does that happen, right? Tell me all about, your like, the color of your skin and how that impacts your life and your culture or whatever.  SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: You know, cause those things are ... That's problematic too, right? But like, looking for those permissions. And then being really really super willing to sort of, you know, if you're gonna ask, then listen. SIOBHAN: Right.  ANDREW: Like really listen, you know?  SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: As we're recording this, in September I have a tarot deck coming out through Llewellyn, which is the Orisha tarot deck, right? Which is a deck that sort of explores the overlap of my involvement with traditional Afro-Cuban Orisha practices ... SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: And my initiation into them, and my experiences for all these years playing with tarot and working with tarot. And one of the things that I did when I started, was I sat down with a friend of mine who is an activist and a person of color. And I showed them a bunch of the drawings that I was working on, and I was like, “What do you think? What do you feel? How does this hit you?” Right?  And not because I feel that they can speak for everybody, but because I felt like I needed somebody to talk to, and they were a person who was, you know, an artist as well as, you know, a spiritual person and so on. And we talked about it a bunch, and they liked what I was up to.  And then when I got to the end of the deck, I was like, you know, I'd made some artistic choices, I'd depicted a lot of people of color in the deck, and people with different bodies, and all these kinds of things, and I wanted to sit down and like, just sort of say, like, “Do you have thoughts and feelings about what was going on?” You know?  And so, I sat down with the same person and with somebody else, and I showed them the art work, again, and there were specifically a couple of choices that I made that affected about a dozen of the cards, right? And, and so, and I didn't bring up anything, I just sat down and showed them or whatever, and both people thought it was great. They really liked what I had been doing, they felt like ... They felt like it was good representation. You know, like one of them said, “I feel like I see my uncle in this card, and I feel like I see this person in this card, I really like it.” And I was like, “That's great.” Cause I was totally willing to redo a bunch of these cards. You know? And, and I think that we need to be, if we're going to enter into this, we need to consider that we might need to redo stuff. And it might be inconvenient. Or it might be a burden, right?  SIOBHAN: Right.  ANDREW: You know, and also, in terms of perfect, this is two people's opinion? Right? Like this is not everybody, and I am sure inevitably, you know, because that's the way the world is, people will have issues, some people will have an issue, or maybe not, but like, but I don't expect that it's perfect, you know? But I also couldn't poll the world, you know? And, and, so, we need to find our way to engage this stuff. And find our way to keeping moving forward and making things happen, you know? So. SIOBHAN: That's interesting. That's interesting, and it's interesting because it's a very popular notion in the public eye now. The African tradition is very very in the center of everybody's eye, and many people are new to it, and so, there are people that will see it, they won't know anything about you and then they'll say, “[sigh], It's that, it's that, how popular it is,” and then they'll jump to that conclusion, and then there are some that are traditionalists and they'll have their own reasons why, and it's interesting because the diaspora is so huge ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: And people will have all different perspectives. And it's ... really hard to even try and get one consensus about what is right, what feels good, and I recently had an incident where I was taking a course and I asked about using some kind of Buddhist symbolism. I've been cultivating a practice of my own. And I said, “You know, I don't know how I feel about this, using this symbol. Does anyone practice, does anyone belong, does anyone come from this culture, how do you all feel?”  And I want to say, there were many people who said “Oh, it's probably fine,” or some that said ... I also thought it was really funny, they'd say, “Well, it's not the same when people of color do this thing.” And I thought, Oh! And that's interesting too, as if ... it's almost like a free pass moment? And I was like, that doesn't really resonate with me. Especially when you think about ... if you think about the question, you know, do I belong to a culture who has benefited from the oppression of this other culture whose symbolism that I'm engaging? If I were to say that as an American, and I were to think about Buddhist cultures that have been affected by American policy, the answer to that would be yes, regardless of my skin color, because I'm here. And I had to really decide for myself what felt appropriate to me ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: Even with the endorsement of people in the culture, because there was this moment of what is the history? How have I benefited? You know.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: And there's an opportunity ... I said to myself when I wanted to use the symbol: It's okay because I supported ... I supported Buddhists when I bought this. And I support them when I do this other thing. And I uplift this people in this way and that and then, there's a capitalist notion that I now own this symbol ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: And I can do what I want with it. Because I engage it ... And in my case, because I engage it personally, because I have a practice and I've been cultivating. It's like, this is my culture! ANDREW: Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: You know, I do it too! And it was tricky for me to sit with. The concept of even owning a symbol ... ANDREW: Mmm. SIOBHAN: Is somewhat capitalist and colonialist in nature. To have the rights to use it. And this is new for me to think about this, honestly. While I've thought about cultural appropriation before, I engaged it in depth this summer through that course that I was taking. And that was interesting to have that moment, because I had always thought, as long as I am engaging this culture, supporting this culture, and uplifting this culture, then it's fair game, the symbols are fair game. But I no longer necessarily believe that. It's totally case by case.  ANDREW: Do you use the symbol?  SIOBHAN: Did I use it? No. ANDREW: No?  SIOBHAN: I didn't. And I said to the people I was asking, I said, If I ever use images of my practice or Buddhist symbols that I engage, it will have the level of awareness in it that I've now garnered. It won't be an afterthought. It won't be like, Oh, I just used this symbol and then afterwards I think about it. It will be like, this is what I intend, I stand confident in this. And it will involve the foresight needed, just like you were talking about, sitting down with people and saying, “How do you feel about this? How do you feel about this? And ...” ANDREW: Yeah. SIOBHAN: And asking myself questions like, “What about this project, this representation, or this use of this symbol, amplifies further the voice of the people who have been disadvantaged ...”  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: In accordance to or in relationship to members' cultures that I belong to, and things like that, it won't be separate from that ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: I will be having that awareness. If I do use the symbol, ever. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Yeah, you know, and making this deck, I certainly talked to my elders. You know, I sat down and showed my elder all the work, you know, to make sure that they were happy with it and comfortable with it, you know, and again recognizing that they don't speak for everybody, you know, like it's... SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: You know? I mean, and ultimately, from my point of view, when it comes to this particular project, you know, it's a ... I would have used the word Lucumí as the title of the tarot, but it's already taken by another deck, but like it represents a very specific set of experiences which are mine and my story and my journey and my ... SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: Understandings and my lineage, you know? And it doesn't represent, and certainly it doesn't pretend to represent, all of these diasporic traditions or any of those things, because that's impossible. Because they are related but they are not the same.  SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: And, you know, and I'm also, I am not a Cuban, and I'm not a, you know, Yoruban or, you know, Brazilian or other things, you know? I'm not a person of color. I'm not any of those things.  SIOBHAN: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And those people and the way in which those traditions are practiced in different communities are always going to be different.  SIOBHAN: Right.  ANDREW: And, you know, that's the end of the conversation, right, you know? SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: And for me, the problem arises when people don't understand those implications, right? You know, like you're talking about, you know? Well, I can just -- I'm a Buddhist -- Look at me, I've got a brass Buddha statue, I'm good, right?  SIOBHAN: Right! [laughing] Right. Right, there's a lot of ... harm can be done in the assumption that because a thing was purchased, you own the rights to the culture ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: And you own the right to use that symbol, however you want, just cause you own it. And that's the capitalist way. ANDREW: Yeah. SIOBHAN: I bought that, it's mine, I can do whatever I want with it, and there's not a thought process about where did this fabric come from? What traditional weave is this? What are the conditions in the nation where they do this weave? And, are they in a situation where their culture is being eradicated?  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: I just heard about that recently. I can't remember the major design company that stole this technique from a region. And then another company came, went to that nation, and amplified the voices there, and created a school so they could continue teaching their cultural work. And there is an opportunity for more things like that to happen, the uplifting of voices that are fading away because of systemic oppression, but only if people get beyond their feeling of ownership of something ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: And their feeling of glory about something. And ... And it's really easy to lose track of that.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Yeah. For sure. And I think it's a thing, you know, we live in ... Capitalism is such a thing, right? Says the person who runs a store, right?  SIOBHAN: [laughing] ANDREW: You know, but, I think that ... I was having this conversation with somebody recently about being anti-capitalist, right?  SIOBHAN: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And they were talking about somebody else who was running a business who was anti-capitalist and was running into all these challenges and problems for the people that they had, that they would struggle and stuff. And, I'm like, I don't think I'm anti-capitalist per se, I mean, I think that there are better ideas, for sure, but I'm definitely anti-exploitation. You know? And for me, like, capitalism, when we talk about capitalism, I feel lost and daunted by the immensity of it. You know? I mean, like, what am I going to do about this? You know? I ... It just hits a thing where I sort of get stuck. But I definitely work to, in my interactions, be anti-exploitive. You know?  SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: And seeking to, you know, build and prioritize the independent people, independent deck makers that we're supporting, you know? Seeking to ask the questions about ... So I'm buying this thing, where did it come from? How is it made? You know? Is this palo santo sustainably harvested?  SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: Or is this like you're in there with a chain saw cutting them down? You know? SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: And seeking that ... it adds a layer of work, but I think it also ... Beyond just being like, good practice, I think it also adds a layer of power to stuff as well, you know, when we're talking about spiritual things, you know? When we know that there's a chain of connection that has consideration for the earth and people and spirit and so on, I feel like there's a flow through there that makes things better, you know?  SIOBHAN: Right.  ANDREW: Yeah. SIOBHAN: If the opportunity is taken. And I believe that chain is there even if we don't take the opportunity. And then what are we connecting ourselves to, is the question.  ANDREW: Well, for sure, right?  SIOBHAN: You know, when we don't investigate it, what are the conditions where they mine this? What does the earth look like as a result of this mining? What happens ... You know? When this degrades, this thing I use, this single use thing, and, one of the things that really flabbergasted me [laughing], when I became more active online, in the online spiritual community, was the notion that spiritual practices are concerned with nature, and concerned with the preservation of nature, and I'm still feeling like, if I were to divulge the level at which I'm thinking about things when it comes to sustainability, I mean, I would be that crazy person. Like -- And I mean that like in the sense that I would be the outlier in the way that I often am.  Not to mean, not to say that, not to put a judgement call on the person who thinks differently or the person who is othered because of their mental health status, because again, I'm coming from that place too, but the person who is othered because [sigh], this is just too weird, this is just too hard, this is just ... but at the same time, we're in a time where it's so important that really everybody kind of gets on the same page about that, or else.  ANDREW: I just don't get those people, though, right? I'm like, this is a person who is way more passionate about this than I have capacity to do.  SIOBHAN: Right.  ANDREW: So I'm gonna like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pay them for their passion, for their intensity, for being out there, you know?  SIOBHAN: Right.  ANDREW: Cause there are these people out there, you know? I have the good fortune to meet them and I'm just like, Yes! You're the good chain. I want to support this.  SIOBHAN: [laughing] Right.  ANDREW: And other people, I'm just like, “Hmm, I'm not sure, we'll see,” you know?  SIOBHAN: Right.  ANDREW: You know, like, cause lots of people, I run into lots of people doing business, and lots of people importing stuff from wherever, and I'm always like, hmm, you know. SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: And then there's people who are doing great stuff, you know? Like some of my suppliers, they know exactly where their crystals are coming from cause they're paying the people directly to mine them. You know? SIOBHAN: Right.  ANDREW: And they go down and, you know, give those people money and support their families and connect with them and connect with sustainability of these things, cause they want them to keep coming, right?  SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: You know, and they want these people who have these abilities to keep doing it and to be supported, you know?  SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: And I think that that's amazing when that, when I see that, you know?  SIOBHAN: Right.  ANDREW: So. Yeah.  SIOBHAN: I continue to be surprised how many people own shops, metaphysical shops, that look at me sideways when I say “Do you support ethical mining? Are these ethically mined?” And I just get blank faces. [laughing] You know, like, “What does that even mean? What are you even talking about? Oh, well probably, you know,” and it's like, this isn't an insane notion, in the spiritual community, it's not this bizarre notion, but it is, it is a lot of places. ANDREW: Yeah, and it's tough because there's so many, you know, there's stuff, certainly, 100 percent of our stuff is not, it's not clear where a bunch of it comes from. SIOBHAN: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Because there's so many disruptions in the points of connection, you know? SIOBHAN: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: You know, but I think it's important to be mindful of it and to try and work on that, right? Cause otherwise we'll never move further in that direction, you know? So. SIOBHAN: Right. ANDREW: Yeah. SIOBHAN: Right. I look at my collection [laughing] ... My collection I've amassed at this point of gems and minerals, and my awareness of even the concept of ethical mining started, really, when I got more active in the Little Red Tarot community. She's been very vocal -- Beth, the owner -- about ethical mining and through her I learned, Oh, I really have to look out for this. Cause you learn in little pieces. The gems. It's the food, where's the food coming from? This plastic, what's going to happen to it when I'm done with it? You, obviously, you don't become aware of it all at once, or at least hopefully not, you work piece by piece, and then to really think about, what am I going to do with this stuff now that I already have it?  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. SIOBHAN: What is the most powerful purpose that I could put this to, now that I do already own it and really, staying curious about that, rather than shutting down, and rather than going into a guilt that doesn't serve.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. For sure. Well, I think that's a good spot to stop it and say, if you're curious about Siobhan, where do they come and find you? [laughing] SIOBHAN: [laughing] I'm at RadicalTarot.com.  ANDREW: Nice.  SIOBHAN: And, everything is there. I'm also everywhere else and they can find my Instagram. My Twitter is actually the most political place I am, ironically, that's the place I'm most vocal when it comes to how I feel. I am on Facebook, but it's only a matter of time, before, I think, I part ways with them. And my newsletter is definitely the safest way to make sure that you hear about anything that I'm putting forth, because I announce everything there.  ANDREW: Nice. Well, thank you so much for making some time and coming on the podcast today. It's been great.  SIOBHAN: Awesome! Thank you for having me!

TeeDee and Andrew talk about the values of initiation. How it changes a person and how that enhances ones talents. They also talk about Oshun and how Teedee understands her after 20 years of initiation.  Connect with TeeDee on her website. Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to and think consider if it is time tosupport the  Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Thanks for listening! If you dig this please subscribe and share with those who would like it. Andrew   ANDREW: Welcome to another installment of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I'm here today with T-D González, who I know from the Orisha community, and who has been making some wonderful product and really representing some of the things that I think are significant and important about both tradition and initiation. So, for folks who don't know you, T-D, who are you? What are you about? T-D: [laughing] So, I am an Olorisha of the Afro-Cuban Lucumí tradition, initiated to the Orisha Ochún. I was ordained in Cuba in 1999. I live in Los Angeles, California. I'm a mother of two little boys. I'm a widow. I have a lot going on. And I've enjoyed making spiritual baths, which was one of the first things that I learned, one of the first things that many of us learn in the religion. And I've been doing that for about 20 years now, and I just recently began to sell a dried spiritual bath utilizing the herbs that we use in Orisha worship, in Lucumí Afro-Cuban Orisha worship that pertain to Ochún, so it's an Ochún bath. And I'm really excited about it, I love making it, I love working with the herbs, and it's a lifelong learning process for me.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm, yeah, it's awesome. I think we need to definitely talk about the herbs but the first question that I want to kind of start with us talking about is, who is Ochún?  T-D: [laughing] ANDREW: Right? And I ask this because, you know, I had David Sosa on a while back, and we talked -- T-D: Mmmhmm, mmmhmm, my dear friend.  ANDREW: Local human. And, I think it's really important because I think Ochún is, possibly from what I see, one of the most popular of the Orishas, and yet so much of what I see, in general conversation from, you know, people outside of the tradition doesn't often jive very well with my understanding of her from a traditional context at all. T-D: Right. ANDREW: And even in the traditional context, you know, I mean, some of my elders basically say, well she's kind of unknowable.  T-D: Right. And she's a deeply misunderstood Orisha.  ANDREW: Right! T-D: She's very popular and well loved, probably because of her beauty and because of her dominion over some of the aspects of life that obviously all of us are striving to attain or to enjoy.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: But she is deeply misunderstood. So -- And she means different things, probably, to different people, even among initiates. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: I see Ochún as elegance and beauty, but maybe not necessarily in the most apparent ways or in the most superficial ways. And I definitely see Orisha as working through other people. So Ochún for me is a motherly figure -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And she's forgiving and she's understanding and she's compassion, but she also can be stern, and she also can teach us very difficult lessons. And she also demands respect. And she demands regard for the counsel that she gives us, you know.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: So, in some ways I always say, you know, I'm a little bit afraid of Ochún. I'm dedicated to her, I'm crowned to her, I love her, obviously, I've dedicated my life to Ochún, and she's blessed my life in many many ways. But Ochún is not an easy crown to wear. People make lots of assumptions about her children and things of that nature. Ochún is a very complex Orisha. On, you know, in the most basic terms, you know, we can say Ochún is a healer, Ochún heals with fresh water, Ochún also makes herbal decoctions, Ochún is a diplomat, Ochún is an astute businesswoman, Ochún is multifaceted, she's an incredible cook, she's a wonderful and caring mother, she's a wonderful mate, there are many aspects of Ochún. And obviously, then there is the connective part of Ochún in terms of sparking human connection between one another.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: One of the praise, Oríkìs or praise names for my aspect of Ochún, is Oneabede. A bede is that long brass needle that's used to sew nets. So we can say she knits together the fabric of families ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: Or the web of societies. We could just go on and on.  ANDREW: For sure, yeah. And I think about Ochún in my life, who's been, ever since I, ever since I sort of entered the religion in about 2000, she's been a constant. Right? She's always standing up for me, always there to help me, you know, always showing up when I need something ... T-D: And she's a fighter! [laughing] ANDREW: She is a fighter, right? And like you said, she demands her respect in a way that is unquestionable, you know? So before we do a ... what's called a reading of entry ... T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Which is before you get crowned, there's a reading that gets done to make sure that everything's good for the ceremony space, right?  T-D: Right. Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Has everything been covered, do we have all the right things, is there some unexpected problem?  T-D: Right. Some call it the vista or the obo de entrada, or, you know.  ANDREW: Yeah. And Ochún, in my reading of entry, showed up and says, "So no matter who's marked as your mother this weekend, I'm always your mother."  T-D: Right. ANDREW: And I was like, "That's right, Mom, you are!" You know? And that continues. And it's definitely that respect piece, but, it's also ... There's a profound intelligence?  T-D: Absolutely. ANDREW: That I think that gets overlooked ... T-D: Absolutely. ANDREW: And that diplomat, that business piece, that ... T-D: That social intelligence, that's really really important. You know?  ANDREW: Yeah. Mmmhmm. T-D: It's really important. And the whole piece of love, love goddess, and that whole thing, procreation, productivity, which she kind of dovetails, obviously, with our supreme, you know, Obatala, is, I think that the element that has to do with love speaks to self-love. And self-acceptance. And self-forgiveness. As much as anything else. It's not always a sexual kind of thing, you know, and attracting the things that we want to -- Ochún has a lot to do with attraction, Ochún has a lot to do with transformation, but it's not always in a sexual way. It can sometimes be and obviously it is, but those aren't the only, you know, avenues for that element in our lives. ANDREW: Yeah, for sure. So, I think I'm just going to have to collect a bunch of children of Ochún speaking about her nature over time on this podcast.  T-D: And I'm sure you'll get 50 different answers -- ANDREW: Yeah! T-D: From 50 different children of Ochún, but -- ANDREW: It will be beautiful. T-D: I want to speak to this thing that you talked about, this whole thing of aché, that we know that we're born with aché, right, and so this aché is this divine, if you want to call it grace, if you want to call it energy, you know, different people call it different things, we're all born with this, right, and we're all made up of this. And some of Vershare's writings even allude to the idea that Oldumare is aché, that God Almighty is aché. We're born with it. And we have our gifts and our grace and our energy, but then to actually be ordained as a priest is to receive the specific aché that we require in order for us to ethically fulfill our destinies, right? That's this idea that we chose a path, that we chose a destiny before we were born. And that we require this aché of these Orishas that we receive aché of, in order to be whole, in a sense, right? Or to be fully aligned with our higher selves. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And so when we receive this aché, this aché that we receive is not the same aché that we're born with. It's really an amplification, an augmentation of what we have. And then it's almost like, you know Willy talks about this in some of his classes, the oreate ritual specialist Miguel Ramos, talks about this idea that it's almost like you have a bank account deposited of aché. ANDREW: Mmm. T-D: And then you receive, you know, augmentations to that from ceremonies or initiations or additional rites that you undergo.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And then your behavior and your character help to augment that or to multiply that or deplete it depending on how we conduct ourselves. So those are kind of some avenues or some conversations about aché, and then obviously we have the aché of our, of the Orisha to whom we're primarily dedicated as priests.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And I think we work for the rest of our lives to kind of develop that and grow that thing, and -- ANDREW: Yeah. And I think there's one other piece that sort of falls into that as well, right? Is that we are initiated, and we receive the energy, the aché -- T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: The grace, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: The connection to the spirit and so on, right?  T-D: Yes.  ANDREW: But we also are initiated into a lineage. T-D: Absolutely!  ANDREW: And we are connected to this line of people and Orishas and aché that go back -- T-D: Absolutely. ANDREW: As far as we can remember. T-D: Absolutely. Absolutely. That's essential. ANDREW: And I think that this notion of, or this practice of, being initiated into a lineage also adds to it, because ... T-D: Absolutely. ANDREW: It gives us permission, or some people might use the word license -- T-D: Right, licencia. Mmmhmm. ANDREW: To work with these spirits, and it forms a contract or a ... you know, most often talked about, like a family bond, right?  T-D: Right.  ANDREW: Because we use the word egun, which means ancestors ... T-D: Right. ANDREW: And when we use the word egun, we mean our ancestors by blood, our family ... T-D: Right.  ANDREW: And our ancestors by initiations -- T-D: Or by lineage, right.  ANDREW: And I think that this conjunction of the two forces, right? The energy that we receive directly from people, from our ceremonies, and from the spirits themselves, and that energy that we can access and that we can work with through working with these ancestors, I think that that combination really is where the magic happens? T-D: Absolutely. I agree with you wholeheartedly, cause you're calling on that energy.  ANDREW: Yeah! T-D: You're calling on that energy before we do anything, right?  ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: When we recite our mouba, we're literally praising God and the deities and the elements and we're literally calling the names ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: Of those who came before us, of our lineage, and we're calling the names of those exalted priests who existed before us even from outside of our lineage ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: I think that's essential. And yeah, that absolutely speaks to that concept of ritual license. That aché that you receive as an initiate endows you with something that will develop in time with training into ritual license and the ability to perform and to function as a priest on behalf of yourself, on behalf of others, to benefit the community, absolutely. And that is an essential piece, and it speaks to what the Cubans call fundamento, because if you don't have that you're just kind of floundering, fooling around, and this is not that type of thing. And there are absolutely different spiritual traditions and there are people who are born with deep gifts ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: With deep connections to their own ancestors, to their own spirit guides. There are people who have to do little to no work to have the things that they do flourish, but Orisha worship is different from those types of systems and traditions. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: This is absolutely a communal system that requires ordination, initiation, training at the foot of elders, recognition by one's elders. As I said, this is definitely a learning path ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: That one sets their foot upon and they will continue to learn for the rest of their lives.  ANDREW: True. T-D: My mother in law lives with me. She's 85, she just celebrated her 60th year as an Olorisha of Ochún, she has crowned many godchildren, she's a wonderful Diloggún diviner, she is an incredibly knowledgeable herbalist, she's just an all-around Olocha of the type that was fairly common 60 years ago when people were kind of all living on that island in that environment and didn't have, didn't function or have to deal with some of the stresses of a modern life in a large place, you know? And she still reads, and she still studies, and she still learns, and she still asks questions in rituals. And she may be one of the -- she's definitely one of the most knowledgeable people, you know, functionally, in terms of ritual competence, that I know. And so it just tells me, this is a learning path, we're on this path for life.  ANDREW: Yeah, I think it's, I think that it's really a significant point, right? I think that a lot of people have a notion about spirituality, whether it's this path or another path, and I know when I was younger I had this notion, that we will at some point arrive. T-D: Right.  ANDREW: At some point we will get there, and we will be, we will know the things, we'll stop having questions ... T-D: Right. ANDREW: We'll stop whatever, right? And, you know, I mean, I look at the elders that I know, and they're always still asking questions, right?  T-D: Right.  ANDREW: And it's one of those things that the more I learn about these traditions, and even in my Western mystery stuff, even though I decided to walk away from that path ... T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: I could see how much more there was to learn, and that it was infinite, right?  T-D: Right.  ANDREW: And I think that it's really important to cultivate that sort of curiosity and engagement, right? T-D: Absolutely. ANDREW: I also think it's interesting, cause you brought up, and I want to kind of talk about this for a bit, before we lose it in the flow of the conversation -- T-D: Okay. ANDREW: That distinction between like Espiritismo, and muertos, like spirits of the dead, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And, you know, what we would call, what more people might call spirit guides ... T-D: Right.  ANDREW: You know, guardian angels?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: You know, in the sense of like, some spirit that looks over us, and, what do you see as the role of those spirits in your life or in people's lives in general? Because I often see people conflate them with Orisha or with other things, and I'm curious. T-D: Right. And it's -- it's easy to do, especially when we are in a tradition where many of us, and most of our elders even, will use the word egun for everything, right? Anything that's dead is egun. ANDREW: Right.  T-D: So, even if they're talking about spirit guides, which we would say muertos, or guías, or protectores, or even ... ANDREW: Ada Orun. T-D: Right, Ada Orun, or even Ada Orun, it's easy to flip that tongue. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: But yeah. Or even where they, some people talk about -- sorry -- even they use the word egun, people who are practitioners of Palo. So it just kind of gets thrown across the board. So it's -- I think it's important for us to be able to kind of designate or understand the differences, so we don't have this kind of totally crucado kind of crossed up situation, but I think that they are important. I think that a lot of that kind of -- I don't want to call it confusion, but kind of mixed up language, comes from the fact that we are ... Our religious practices and our spiritual practices descend from multiple ethnic groups of people that intermixed together in one geographic location, and so we have people practicing multiple spiritual traditions, you know, again, there's a creolization, it's not just strictly this Yoruba thing, because this is not just a Yoruba religion any more, in terms of the ethnic group. And it hasn't -- it hadn't been that way in a long time in Cuba or Brazil either. And now even more so, it is not, because we've got this kind of universal religion now, where people of different races and ethnic groups and backgrounds are practicing these religions, so. Excuse me. But back to your actual question was, I think that spirit guides have a very important place, I think Espiritismo has an important place in the overall practice of Afro-Cuban religion, because I believe that it fills in some gaps that were missing, and this is one school of thought. There are many schools of thought; there are others who will disagree. And I don't necessarily think -- I don't think it's filling in gaps that have to do with egun or ancestral practices, the more I learn about traditional Yoruba religion and the more that I study and read about that, it seems almost like Espiritismo tape kind of fills in some gaps that are missing with Egbe worship, that did not transfer to the New World. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And so, oftentimes you'll hear Yoruba scholars describe Egbe as Yoruba Spiritism.  ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: Because Egbe is not an Orisha, and it's not one entity, it's like a group of entities that exist in the spiritual realm, and so the more I read of that and learn of that, I see, or I believe, I'm led to believe, that perhaps this filled in a bit of a gap where that was concerned. But I think for all of us, I mean, I come from a house where a lot of Espiritismo is practiced. My elders are espiritistas. I was married to a Palero and espiritista, and I just see how it functions in the life. Once people become developed, it can just help you in so many ways, just in so many little practical ways. But it is a separate practice from Orisha.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And so I think what often happens is, people who are outside of the religion, who do not have elders, are being led by spirit guides to do things, and they believe that they are interacting with Orisha. And, I just don't think that's the case. So all these girls that you see on Instagram and other forms of social media building these empty altars, altar tables, or they're calling them shrines, that don't have any Orisha in them with all kinds of pretty little knick-knacks and afefedes and mirrors and compacts and things -- those are likely -- I believe the impetus for that is a spirit guide that's pushing them to do that. But they just think it's Ochún. Or they think it's Yamaya. And so they've set up their altar, you know. That's what they really believe, and I think that push is so strong coming from those guides that it's pushing them to do something and they are doing something. And these dreams that they have that they're ... ANDREW: Mmm. T-D: You know, that they may be misinterpreting cause they don't have elders to guide them.  ANDREW: Well, and I think that there's an important sort of magical concept at play that people lose track of, or they don't like it.  T-D: Okay. Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Which is, when spirit speaks to us, right? They can only speak to us through our conscious and our unconscious, right? And so that communication is very easily flavored. Right?  T-D: Okay. [nodding] ANDREW: By our ideas, by our hopes, by our aesthetics ... T-D: Right. ANDREW: By our concepts. And this ... The capacity to differentiate between different kinds of spirits or, you know, whatever, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: I think is very difficult. And if a spirit shows up and wants to help you, and you're like, "Please be Ochún, please be Ochún, please be Ochún," and it's ... It's kind of in that neighborhood, you know?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Like, overlaps with that energy, of course that communication is going to get covered with that, right?  T-D: Right.  ANDREW: You know, it's gonna, it's gonna get clothed in those symbols and ideas, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: You know? And I think that it's really interesting to sort of try and understand how those communications and how those things happen, right?  T-D: It does. ANDREW: And I think sometimes it's an ego piece. Sometimes it's an unconscious piece. Sometimes it's ... You know, sometimes it comes from the spirit too, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: You know? But I think that it's really important for people who are exploring in directions like this to, you know, to try and be clear about it and to, you know, if you're looking to go in those directions, you know, considering looking for more traditional verification, you know?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Because that's gonna be way more fruitful over time. T-D: Yeah. ANDREW: You know? Because the challenge that I've noticed with a lot of people is, they get pulled into something and into working in a direction, and then they don't know where to go, and the spirit can't guide them further, and so then they get stuck and their life becomes, you know, not what they hoped it would be.  T-D: Right.  ANDREW: Or they have problems, and not because the spirit's necessarily making them, but because it can't take them anywhere else ... T-D: Right.  ANDREW: And then, and then they become disenfranchised, or bitter, or they get deeper issues kind of emerging from that, right?  T-D: Yeah. An important factor, I think, is [sigh]. I don't want to throw this all on millennials this or millennials that.  ANDREW: Uh huh. T-D: But, you know, different age cohorts do have some tendencies and so we may see a lot of this with millennials not wanting to, you know, follow the rules, or have guides, or submit themselves to elders, or this kind of thing, but I think it's important to just kind of lay it out on the line, that, number one, one factor that isn't necessarily specific to millennials, is that you have people who are kind of -- they may be rejecting, or seeking something outside of the Abrahamic traditions, and so when they find other religions or Afro-Caribbean spirituality, they may be operating under the misconception that because there's not a church per se, that these are not structured religions that have orthodoxy. ANDREW: Right.  T-D: And so that can create conflict and a lot of problems. Because these are very structured religions. There is orthodoxy. They are hierarchical religions. They are oral traditions, largely, even though now we have more learning resources that are not ... ANDREW: I think that that is actually, you know, I mean, I'm, I don't know about the millennialness of it ... T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: I mean, you know, I think that the issues ... Every generation has their own ideas, right?  T-D: Right. ANDREW: But I certainly think that being ... Everybody in this day and age who has access to the Internet, right? has ideas.  T-D: Mmmhmm, mmmhmm. ANDREW: And the amount of people who show up in my orbit who have sort of notions that they've picked up from somewhere that are really quite not traditional, you know? I think it's because of this flood of information ... T-D: There is. ANDREW: And people want it, and so much of it is ... It's kind of half-baked, you know?  T-D: It is. There's a lot of incorrect. I mean there are people ... You can go on YouTube and there are people who have tens of thousands of followers who are not giving accurate information. Or who are giving information or who have a perception or what they're voicing is really not orthodox or traditional at all. And so then when someone comes in contact with people who are part of the community and they encounter that orthodoxy, it might throw them off.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: Or even put them off. You know?  ANDREW: Right. T-D: Which I think is unfortunate. But I think, you know, there are some aspects of the religion that you can access, just in terms of historical facts, you know? This started out, you know, as an imperial religion that was a part of a culture that believed in the divine right of kings and that the kings are direct descendants of Orisha ... ANDREW: Sure.  T-D: And, you know, us, we're, our practice comes largely from the Oyo empire, and so there's lots of structure and strictures and all that kind of thing that exists. It's not just this free-flowing kind of whatever you feel type of thing. And so, I think it's important for people to kind of at least try to learn a little bit about the historical stuff. Just take bites of it, you know?  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: Cause that will kind of put you in a better place, really, than just watching lots of YouTube videos ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And things like that.  ANDREW: I also think it's interesting because I think that a lot of people who I run into who come into the tradition or are considering coming into the tradition, right, or are coming for a reading or something ... T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: I feel like a lot of them don't know what to do with the reading that they get, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm, got it. ANDREW: Someone shows up and they get a reading, and they come in a sign, and it comes out that everything's firm and solid and good, you know?  T-D: [laughs] Mmm. ANDREW: And then the reader's like, "Well, the Orishas love you, hugs and kisses, see you later," and they're like, "What do you mean?" T-D: Wow. ANDREW: "What do you mean?" Right? "What do you mean?"  T-D: Right. That's problematic too, obviously.  ANDREW: Right?  T-D: Because those Odos, those divination pattern, which we call Odu, have inherent messages in them. ANDREW: Sure. T-D: And some of them admonish the diviner to speak the more -- I don't want to say negative, but negative side of the pattern, and to give warnings, and --it's a message -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: That they're kind of -- As a priest, you know, we have Ita, which are a number of life divinations, but it's the same concept as a road map. One may be temporary while the other may be permanent ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: But it's still a road map for you to follow for your life, and so even if it's just dealing with a specific point in time and a specific situation, I think, you know, obviously, a lot of people are performing readings [sigh] who just are not conscientious ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: About the work that they're doing.  ANDREW: Right. T-D: It's not just about marking an ebbó or an offering or a sacrifice that you can then charge the person for you to perform. You're really -- It's a connection, right? Between the Ori of the person who's come to receive the reading and the diviner connecting with Elegua, and giving them this message that they require, and so I think that is really important in terms of fully exploring and investigating the message of the Odu that's fallen, and taking the time with someone who is not in the religion. You know? When someone comes for a first reading, it's really important to explain to them what that's going to involve, and what it means, and what to expect, on top of what the actual message is going to be.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: Because as we know, it's easier to lose the blessings that are being foretold than it is to convert negativity that's being expected into blessings. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: You know, so, it's a highly responsible task to perform a reading for someone, whether it's a Diloggún reading or a spiritual reading. It's a highly responsible task and the person who's performing that reading needs to take it seriously and they need to convey that level of seriousness and sacredness to the person who's coming to receive the reading. It's not a game or a parlor trick. It's a connection with ... to the divine. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Yeah. And it's also not ... although it has the appearance of fortunetelling sometimes ... T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Like, "hey, watch for this thing ..." T-D: Right. [nodding] ANDREW: It's also not fortunetelling, right?  T-D: And the diviner needs to make that clear, also. You know, that this is not fortunetelling.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. And it's also ... The advice about what you don't do is SO important and ... T-D: It really is. ANDREW: Or maybe more important than what you do ... I mean … They're both important, right?  T-D: Right. ANDREW: And this notion of the way in which taboos are handed out, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: "Don't do this thing, don't do that thing." I think is something that is also very complicated for people sometimes.  T-D: It is.  ANDREW: Especially because sometimes those connections are super obvious, right?  T-D: Right.  ANDREW: Like, you came in a sign that says your head's not very clear, don't drink. Right?  T-D: Right.  ANDREW: Eh, it's easy to understand, right?  T-D: Right. ANDREW: But some of the other connections are less clear, right?  T-D: Right.  ANDREW: And ... and yet ... they still need to be abided with, and that's sort of ... T-D: Right. And so maybe the diviner could help that person ... you know, kind of give them some insights into it. You may not hit on the exact thing, that that taboo or prohibition pertains to for that person, but it gets them thinking along those lines. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: You know. Don't eat this thing. You know, maybe that thing would make you sick, or maybe when you go to have it, you're going to be at someone's house and it's not going to be well-prepared ... ANDREW: Right. T-D: Or maybe you'll need to make that as an offering one day and it'll save you so it's more of a medicine.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: You've got to kind of open the way that person perceives that prohibition. So that they can think about it differently than just, "I can't have that thing."  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: You know. ANDREW: People don't like to be told they can't have things.  T-D: Right. None of us like that, you know? [laughs] ANDREW: So, every time you sit on the mat, be like, "Please don't take away something I like."  T-D: Don't take away. Any time you receive another Orisha with any ties, like "oh, don't tell me I can't have this thing." ANDREW: Exactly.  T-D: But you know that it's important to observe those taboos because you've chosen this path as your life path ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: But someone who's just going to receive a reading may not understand that, you know, for the next 30 days, or depending on, you know, how you were taught, the next however long amount of time, while this Odu, while the energy of this divination pattern is around you, you need to, you know, refrain from doing this thing or that thing or engaging in this or that or eating this or that.  ANDREW: Yeah. For sure. So, I'm going to switch topics a little bit here ... T-D: Okay. ANDREW: Kind of, kind of but not ... T-D: Uh oh! [laughs] ANDREW: So, we've been talking about aché, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And, one of the things that I've found fascinating was watching the way in which you described your process around making these new baths that you're offering. Right?  T-D: Okay. Yes.  ANDREW: You know? And, I mean, can you talk about it, because I think that the commitments to putting your energy into it, and the hands-on-ness of it, I think is fascinating to me, and so I'd love you to share some of that for people to understand.  T-D: Oh my goodness. So, I think it's -- There's obviously a little -- This is an unorthodox type of bath, the first bath that I'm offering as an Ochún bath. It's unorthodox in the sense that most people here in the States who practice the religion perceive Orisha herbs as just the herbs we use to consecrate heads and consecrate Orisha. And they're always fresh herbs that we work with. And the herbs that we use for spiritual baths -- Obviously people in Florida and other places, they may use fresh herbs. But in the Afro-Cuban practice, there are some herbs that get boiled. Plenty of herbs are dried, it's fairly common. It's very common for Paleros to work with dry herbs. And so, I'm using -- I'm making a dried herbal product. I'm growing most of the herbs myself. I'm washing them and drying them and confecting the baths with them. And because I'm a one woman show and I'm just starting to do this, I'm labeling all of my tea tins myself by hand, and some of the labels I kind of make, they're not really labels, I wanted it to look a certain way, and I wanted it to have kind of a vintage apothecary look, and I wanted there to be some texture. So I ended up doing a lot more kind of physical hands on -- ANDREW: Cause-- T-D: Crafting, then I had originally thought. ANDREW: You've skipped over a little bit, though, right?  T-D: I skipped over a lot! ANDREW: You're growing the herbs -- T-D: [laughing] Yes. ANDREW: And then you're picking them -- T-D: Right. ANDREW: And then you're hand washing them all, right?  T-D: Yes, and I'm drying them. ANDREW: And then you're hand drying them -- T-D: Right. ANDREW: So that they can them be properly dried -- T-D: Right. ANDREW: And cured. T-D: Right. Cause I want them to be properly dried and cured.  ANDREW: And not like moldy and disgusting, right?  T-D: Right. I didn't want them to be moldy or disgusting, and yes, I live in southern California where it's pretty dry, so it's not like I have a big issue with anything getting moldy or disgusting. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: And I have some nice drying racks that I hang that are like the ones that people might use for tea or other herbs. And in terms of the confection of the baths, it's kind of an unorthodox thing cause there's a lot of praying and singing and not the same exact kind of ora that would go on to make omearo, but some of that, you know, a good little bit of that. There's not divining going on but there was some divining going on in terms of what my ingredients would be for the bath -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And there was consulting with my own elders about that. So -- And I do have some really good teachers. As I've mentioned, my mother in law, my madrina, I also work with my Olua here in Los Angeles who is actually a sustainable gardening specialist, and my other Olua teacher, Luis Marín who lives in Maryland who is an expert herbalist, and he practices achéche, traditional Yoruba Ifa but he's initiated to Elegua in the Lucumí system. So I do have some really knowledgeable teachers to confer with. But in terms of the actual process of it, yes, I'm [laughing] -- you know, I'm making it the way that I would make a bath for someone who came to me to make a bath for them. So, and I sing when I work. I sing when I do a limpieza or, you know, spiritually clean the house. And this is an Ochún bath, so I sing Ochún songs and I sing Osayin songs.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. And -- T-D: And I open my work, I actually stand in front of my shrine and I ring my Ochún bell and I recite oríkì and I pray to her before I start my work, and then when I'm finished making the batch of the bath, and I do small batches, when I'm finished I go back and I pray to her and I sing, and I recite oríkì and prayer and once it's done I light a candle and I sing some more -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And I leave it there at the foot of my Ochún. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: And sometimes I put my Ochún sopera on top of it! [laughs] ANDREW: [laughs] Just put a little extra of that energy in there! T-D: Yes!  ANDREW: Fire it up a little further?  T-D: I do. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: I do, and so, and I want to say, you know, this concept of kind of making magical things, you know, I feel, obviously that the power is inherent in the herbs that I'm working with and inherent in the Orishas and I just have an unwavering faith in that.  ANDREW: Mmm. T-D: So, and I have an unwavering faith in my elders and in my lineage and that they put Ochún in my head and they did it properly and they've taught me, and I've conferred with them and that I'm doing this properly, and I do it with a lot of love, honestly. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: A lot of love, and heart, and I say a lot of prayers for -- I'm so emotional, you have to forgive me -- for the people who would use this bath, you know, I pray for them, that they should have good health and that they should have happiness and love in their lives and that they should love themselves and accept themselves, and that they should have prosperity and that goodness should flow to them and to their lives. And so I do a lot of that because that's what I know and that's what I've seen when rituals are performed for me, people pray for me, people pray for my children, and so I pray for the benefit of anyone who would touch anything that I put my hands on, you know.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Yeah. And I think that, to me, there's that, what I hear and see and what you're talking about is this sort of both the depth of experience, the history of the tradition, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And that sort of connection to aché and to lineage, right? And I think that, you know, it's -- it goes even beyond just some of those things, right, because it's also your aché, right?  T-D: Right. ANDREW: Like you can accomplish these things partly because it's in you from your destiny to do so as well, right?  T-D: Right. ANDREW: Like not everybody is meant to be an Ochunista or, you know, an herbalist, or whatever, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: We all have different graces and strengths, and I think that that capacity and attention is so wonderful, right? And, you know, how many, if you count the growing of the plants, how long is it from start to finish before one of these comes out in a tin, right? It's a long time. T-D: It's a long time, it is. And I think that from the beginning, my godmother did always kind of try to motivate me to learn about the plants -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And I said, "oh, it's just too much, it's overwhelming, ah," you know, I like to make the baths, I'll use this, what I know, I'll use that ... But as, over time, you know, little by little, you look, and you have more and more plants, and then I married a guy who was a Palero, so there were more and more plants.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: So you just learn, you don't take it all in one big bite, or one big gulp. ANDREW: Right. T-D: There's no way you can do it! And I don't know the Oju this is associated with, it's “bit by bit we eat the head of the rat,” you know ... ANDREW: Right. T-D: It's this idea, the head of the rat has very little sharp bones in it. And so if you're gonna eat that meat, which is a delicacy, right, for our ancestors, our spiritual ancestors, you have to eat it very very carefully. And so, it's a very slow and kind of careful process. And I don't perceive myself as being particularly knowledgeable. I perceive myself honestly as a rank and file Olorisha and I've been very fortunate and blessed to have some really knowledgeable elders who have shared with me and I will spend the rest of my life learning more about herbs and growing herbs and continuing to take classes, continuing to ask questions of other people older than me and younger than me. And maybe one day, you know, 30 years from now, I'll be an Oceanista ... ANDREW: Uh huh. T-D: But, you know, this project, if you will, is just an incredible, an extraordinary opportunity for me, and I love it, and [shrugs], that's all I can say, I love it, and I wish I had begun with more gusto 20 years ago and not felt ... not allowed it to make me feel so overwhelmed. And I also find it interesting that I've received lots of comments and feedback, you know, from elders who are espiritistas, who say "Oh, al fin tu estás haciendo trabajo de tu muerta principal," like, you know, "finally you're doing this work that, you know, that your primary muerta's been trying to get you to do for years and years." And, you know, I have been told of her, and I knew of her, but I didn't really understand that she was an herbalist. I saw her working over a pot, you know, a caldero, kind of bent over, sitting down, and her hands are moving. You know? And I would say that. And my madrino was like, "What did you think she was doing?" [laughs] "What did you think she was working on over that pot?"  ANDREW: [laughing] Yeah. T-D: You know, she was working with barks, and bottles, and ojas, and herbs, and leaves, and stuff, you know. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: But it's a process and I think it comes to us when we're ready. When we're ready for it and open to it.  ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: And sometimes it has come to us little by little over time and we didn't even realize it and then we looked up and said, "Wow! Where did all these doggone plants come from?" ANDREW: Exactly, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think that -- I think that that idea of -- Back to this question about guides and spirits that walk with us, you know?  T-D: Yes!  ANDREW: I mean, I think that figuring out how to live with that, and work with them, I think is so important, you know?  T-D: It's essential but it is so hard for some of us. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: And I'm gonna tell you this, my background, I'm an African American, my family is from New Orleans, so saints and Catholicism and all that was not foreign to me, but many African American people or others who have or Anglo Americans or others who come from a Protestant background, it seems very Catholic to them, and not only that, but it seems very Christian to those who may be looking for something outside of Christianity. And so, until people dig a little bit deeper and really understand about Espiritismo and that they're different and also different ways of working with these spirits, that's when you kind of get that depth or get that connection that, you know, this is something that's really important to me, and when you are surrounded by, or find yourself in the company of people who are really developed spiritually, and how it helps their lives and how it can help your life ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: That's when you start to see the importance of that. And when you -- or the importance just of being able to distinguish between your own fears, or your own ego, and messages that are being sent to you from your guides, you know -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: Is hard. And I can say, I lost my husband almost six years ago to cancer. I have struggled financially with two young children, living in a city where the schools were great when I was a child but aren't so great now and have to pay tuition for my kids and stuff like that, and make choices that I didn't think I'd have to make because I didn't think I'd be alone. You know, there's a big difference between two incomes and one income.  ANDREW: Yes. T-D: And I will give the credit 100 percent to my muertos, my spirit guides, my protectors, and my ancestors that even gave me the idea to sell these baths or make them available to the public, something that I love to do -- ANDREW: Sure.  T-D: And that I have been doing for years, and it never occurred to me, and I have been told, Andrew, so many times, you know, "You're going to have a business, you're going to do well at a business one day." Well, I'm not there doing well yet, you know, I'm just starting, but my parents were small business owners -- ANDREW: Yeah.  T-D: And I just never -- and we had a very comfortable life, but I just -- the only thing I was really good at was food things, and food businesses are very expensive and rigorous and require a tremendous amount of capital -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And I just couldn't see that. And so when this idea came to me -- This idea didn't come to me! The idea was given to me. It was a blessing that was given to me. And that just blows me away.  ANDREW: Well, you know, from a certain perspective, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: So, I started working as a card reader, 15, almost 16 years ago.  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: You know, I quit my job in advertising and started ... T-D: Wow! ANDREW: Reading cards for a living, right?  T-D: Okay. ANDREW: And I decided that I wanted to make a product.  T-D: Mmmhmm, mmmhmm. ANDREW: And so I started making herbal baths. And this line of baths that I make now.  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And, you know, I got them in some stores around town, and I did some things with it, and in some ways, that starting point is the starting point of the whole store I have now, where I have a full store now, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: So, you know, and it comes from that listening in, and leaning in, and being like, "All right, spirits, I can do these things. Oh yeah, I can work on that," and, you know... T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: What comes from that listening, in my experience, especially if we're faithful to it, right? Over time-- T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Is everything, everything comes from there, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And I think about, when I show up at the shop, or tonight's Saturday and we're recording and I'm gonna lock up later and go home -- T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: I always lock up everything and sit here and check in with all my guides and my spirits and I thank them for this, and I thank the Orishas when I pray to them every day, because all of this comes from their guidance and their influence, and my work, but -- T-D: And it's a blessing. It's a degree of freedom for your family.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And when I was a young person, a teenager, I just saw the work, you know, my parents did. And they had multiple small business endeavors, and they were successful, but there was a lot of work.  ANDREW: Sure. T-D: But working for yourself, there's just a degree of freedom, a space for personal expression and creativity, independence -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: That you'll never find in corporate America or corporate Canada or in the West, you know ... ANDREW: Corporate anything, right?  T-D: Anywhere, you're just not gonna find that.  ANDREW: It's just corporate Earth now. Isn't that the deal?  T-D: Right. That's what it is, right, globalization. But I just, if I could develop this in time, you know, in a few years or whatever, into something that I could do full time and have a small shop and grow some herbs on the roof, or in the back, or whatever, that is my ultimate goal, and to be able to kind of be there for my kids, and they can come into the shop and go in the back and do their homework and help me carry stuff or whatever ... ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: That's a beautiful way of life, because it allows you to engage in something that you value and something that you can share with the community, that you can share with others, and it allows you to continue to grow -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: As a priest, and to grow in your spiritual practice and your knowledge and ultimately, you'll be able to pass that on to other people as well. So yes, definitely, you know, you're someone who I see as a shining example, you know, honestly. ANDREW: Well. Thank you. Well. So, let's see if people want to go and check out your stuff, they should know where to find you.  T-D: Oh, yes!  ANDREW: Where are you hiding out on the web there, T-D?  T-D: So, I have a website, it's https://www.spiritualbathtea.com, and you can order the bath there. It's an Ochún bath for love and prosperity. It has a lot of beautiful things in it. And Andrew, I'll send you one, I know that you're a master bath maker but I'm gonna send you my bath, because it's just like wine, maybe you have your vineyard and I have my vineyard ... ANDREW: Oh yeah, for sure.  T-D: You know, but we can enjoy each other's products of one another's labors ... ANDREW: Absolutely. T-D: And I'll definitely be sending you a bath.  ANDREW: Super. I can't wait!  T-D: But yes, it's got at least five of Ochún's herbs in it, it has more, and it's got some other really nice elements in it that ... it's got three different types of sandalwood in it, it smells really lovely, and it's a really beautiful bath and I've received a lot of really positive feedback about the bath from users, and I love making it and I put a lot of love and care into it. And it definitely gives a new meaning, and you know, the word art, or the word crafts, these have many different meanings, and what were the meanings, the original meanings, of, you know, these things.  ANDREW: Well, you know what, the really funny thing is, you're kind of actually doing what the millennials are doing. T-D: I am?  ANDREW: You are, cause I mean, what I see a lot in sort of the millennial culture, things that people see about that, is this return to hand crafted, to small batch, to stuff made with love, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: So you see these sort of various things, food wise, and you know, clothing wise and otherwise ... T-D: Right. ANDREW: That, they're not corporate, they're not mass-produced.  T-D: Right. ANDREW: They come from people who have learned how to, you know, hand do things -- T-D: Right. ANDREW: In traditional ways or new ways. T-D: And this will never be mass-produced, ever. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: It's just not that -- that's not my concept, it's not that kind of thing. So if I wake up tomorrow and you know, Amara la Negra or Beyoncé put me on their, you know, social media, there'll just be a back log, but the order will get filled, but you know, I might buy a couple of those labeling machines, to label my tins, [laughing] or you know, like I said, my dream is to be able to afford to buy 10,000 from China of those fancy tea tins that are already embossed and printed, but the bath is, it's always going to be something that is beautiful, that I'm going to put as much beauty and love and care into as I possibly can, and that my own hands have touched, because that's it, you know, that's where the magic is -- ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: It's multi-- it's multifaceted, right? It's got these different components. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And so, you've got your spiritual license, your ritual license, your learning competencies, but it's also what you put into that thing, you know?  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: There are lots of people who are well-trained, who are very knowledgeable, and who are duly ordained, who just throw some shit together.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: All day long. And I will never ever do that. Cause that's got a lot to do with personal integrity and accountability to Orisha, too! Why -- I mean, I'm going to try to make the most beautiful thing that I can if it has Ochún's name on it. And when I do my Obatala bath, it's gonna be the most incredible excellent thing that I could ever imagine. ANDREW: Yeah. Because I love Obatala, and he loves me, because he gave me a wonderful husband. You know, I just am always going to do the very best that I can.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And to try to make something, and plus we want to please people, right? We want people to feel that their money is well spent and that their effort in acquiring the thing is well spent.  ANDREW: Right. T-D: And is special to them.  ANDREW: Yeah. And I know for myself, whenever I'm in a position to represent the religion in one way or another, I feel a lot of pressure.  T-D: Absolutely!  ANDREW: Right? To get it right. T-D: Absolutely! ANDREW: I made an Orisha tarot deck, which is coming out in the fall through a major publisher, right?  T-D: Oh, wow! Okay. ANDREW: And-- through Llewellyn, it'll be out in September. T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And, it took me a long time to make it because I constantly felt this pressure, from me, right?  T-D: Yeah, it's from you, it's just like any overachiever ... ANDREW: Right?  T-D: You're not competing with other kids, you're competing with yourself. [laughing] ANDREW: There's nobody else, it's just me and the art, or you and the bath, or whatever. T-D: Right!  ANDREW: Yeah, no, it's fantastic. T-D: That's definitely what it is. I definitely put my best into it. And I hope that that shines through and that people will see that and just to add one more thing, you know, it's really important, this idea that we have, of that license [sighs]. I just can't really say enough about that, I kind of get emotional about it. You can't create an Orisha bath if you don't have Orishas. ANDREW: Mmm. T-D: You know? And they're certain herbs that belong to Orishas, and all the herbs belong to Osane, but if you don't have the ritual license to work with those entities, how are you creating a bath? How are you creating a ritual? You can certainly do a spiritual bath, you know, working with your spirit guides, and working with your muertos, your protectors and guides, but working with Orisha requires Orisha. Requires consecrated Orisha.  ANDREW: Yeah.  T-D: So.  ANDREW: For sure. T-D: Don't just throw some oranges and some -- ANDREW: [laughing] Cinnamon -- T-D: Yellow flowers and some honey and cinnamon in the bathtub and say that you're doing a bath with Ochún cause Ochún is not there in that bath with you. ANDREW: Yeah.  T-D: [laughing] Not to be snarky! ANDREW: No, I think, I think it's important conversations, right? And I think that one of the reasons why it's my intention to have you and David Sosa and, you know, other traditional practitioners on, is I think that it's really important to have a dialogue about what tradition actually has to offer, right? And I think that it's a thing that's hard to understand, it's a thing that is not obvious in sort of the more modern world ... T-D: Right. ANDREW: And it's not obvious if you didn't grow up in a magical tradition or in a magical, you know, I mean, I had the great fortune to not be raised with any religion ... T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And I discovered Western mystery tradition stuff, and Western esotericism when I was like, 11 and 12, right.  T-D: Mmmhmm, Mmmhmm. ANDREW: So I grew up self-educating myself in a magical approach to the world. T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And I think that's what has allowed me to step into it and into the Orisha tradition so well, is that the only traditions I've ever known have been magical. And spiritual in this way. And -- T-D: Yeah. ANDREW: And were also initiatory, right?  T-D: Mmmhmm, mmmhmm. ANDREW: Right? You know? They're all pieces that I understood from the beginning, kind of coming into this, right?  T-D: Right. ANDREW: I think it's important. T-D: And, it's very important. It's foreign to a lot of people, and, you know, it's important to say, you know, Orisha worship is not a self-initiatory system, it's a communal system, that has an intact priesthood, it has existed for many generations, for thousands of years if you go all the way back -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And it's an ancient religious system that has an orthodoxy and a priesthood and a specific path that one follows and that's very important. And that you cannot, even though the world changes, things change, things evolve, you can't fit Orisha into your own mold or -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: Or mold Orisha to fit your lifestyle, in that type of way. It's not that type -- it's a religion, it's a structured religious system. ANDREW: For sure. All right. Well now we've given everybody something to think about!  T-D: Yes. ANDREW: Thank you for making time -- T-D: Thank you! Thank you so much for having me, I really appreciate it, it was very kind of you and I appreciate your time.  ANDREW: Oh, it's my pleasure, thanks.  T-D: Thanks. 

I met Sarah a few years back through the magic of the internet and discovered that we're almost neighbours. I was immediately smitten with her, as well as with her business name: Careergasm. So sassy! So bold! Sarah describes a careergasm as follows: "A careergasm happens when your work feels good. Like, really good. Like you and your work belong together. And you can bet your ass it feels as good as it sounds. A careergasm leaves you feeling happy and satisfied and fulfilled in your work. Not every second, but most of the time. You’ve got a hot date every Monday morning, and you show up over and over and over again because it just feels right. Mmmhmm. #slowjams" Who doesn't want that?  In this episode, Sarah gives us the goods on: -who gets to have a careergasm -whether or not you need to up-end your whole life to make it happen -her best advice for a woman who's feeling pretty ho-hum about her job...we're talking specific baby steps Oh, and the story of Sarah's own careergasm? Will completely inspire you. Sarah Vermunt is the Founder of Careergasm and the author of Careergasm: Find Your Way To Feel-Good Work. She helps people figure out what the heck they want so they can quit jobs they hate and do work they love. She writes about careers for Forbes, Fortune, Inc., and Entrepreneur. She lives in Toronto and online at Careergasm.com.

Austin and Andrew talk about astrology from a lived perspectice. The conversation runs through ways in which both have worked with the planets magically to grow as people and achieve practical magic. This is conversation is a rarity in which the actual application of planetary magic gets to be the star of the show.  Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to and think consider if it is time tosupport the  Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. You can find Austin on his website here. His newsletter is defintely worth reading.   Thanks for listening! If you dig this please subscribe and share with those who would like it.   Andrew   If you are interested in booking time with Andrew either in Toronto or by phone or Skype from anywhere click here.   Transcription   ANDREW: Welcome to another installment of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I am here today with Austin Coppock. And I know Austin from his wonderful chats with Gordon White on Gordon's podcast, where they do a twice a year sort of check in about what's going on astrologically and what's coming down the line. And, you know, it's always very insightful and it sets a nice framework for sort of thinking about the bigger pictures of what's going on. So, I've been listening enjoyably to those and thinking that having Austin on here to chat about what happens as we live with astrology and think about astrology and you know, all that kind of stuff as we go through our lives would be wonderful.  But, in case people don't know who you are, Austin, why don't you give us an introduction?  AUSTIN: Okay. I suppose I'll start with my most public face. I am a professional astrologer. I write about what's happening, what's going to happen, in different time frames, ranging from the daily to the decadely. I've also been a consulting astrologer full time for the last ten years as well -- eleven years -- and I also teach a variety of classes about astrology and also some about the astrological magic tradition. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. And, how did -- I'm curious how you got into astrological magic. Because I came out of sort of western ceremonial stuff, which I got into as a teenager and spent a long time playing with and working with, and one of the things that was my favorite was this sort of planetary work and those kinds of things. You know? And it's actually one of the few pieces that sort of endures from that time, as something that I still sort of play with in my life and in my practice, but where did that come from for you? How did you find your way into that?  AUSTIN: That's a good question. I have a convoluted but hopefully coherent answer. [laughs] So, when I got -- when I first got really into astrology, when I was maybe 19, 20, it had a lot of paradigmatic implications to me. The fact that it worked -- and it didn't just work in a fun -- it was more than just the extremely colorful Rorschach test, which I thought it was at first. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: And, it does function very well in that regard, right? But it's -- when I started seeing it reflecting life and death level events -- I actually predicted some deaths that happened during that time, which is not something I do in my practice now. Maybe, maybe, if someone really wants to do that, and I think their reasons are good, but you know, I didn't take it seriously.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: And so that's a pretty good way to get you to take things seriously. To just -- ANDREW: Yeah!  AUSTIN: To throw death in there, right? [laughs] And so, that got me -- that also made me take seriously the paradigmatic implications of astrology. If, you know, if astrology could say things that serious, then a lot of what I had been taught about the world was either incorrect or woefully incomplete.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: And, around that same time, I started training with some people who did internal martial arts, where -- cause I'd been doing martial arts for, I don't know, since I was a kid -- but, I'd never really experienced anybody who could do anything that made me think that chi was anything more than a metaphor -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: But then I started training with a guy who was from a school, and then I went to that school, and, you know, the teacher could do things that were impossible if, you know, if this chi wasn't actually describing part of reality. [laughs]  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: And so that brought, I'd say, that played a, that was another piece in changing what I thought was real, right? You know? In a very physical way. You know, getting your ass kicked by something you can't explain really makes you think about it.  ANDREW: Yeah.  AUSTIN: And so, as I got -- I started doing massive amounts of chi gong and meditation, and that -- it was sort of in the space that that opened up, that's where the magic came through for me, and it came through hard and fast and confusing, as I think it does for a certain percentage of practitioners -- ANDREW: Sure.  AUSTIN: And so, I, you know, I'd intersected with some magical material before. You know, you're ... Back when people went to bookstores, or ... like, you know, you go to the astrology section, and right next to it, is, you know, there is Crowley.  ANDREW: Yeah. AUSTIN: And there's Modern Magic. And, you know, I popped those open, and there are tables of astrological correspondences. So, I was aware of this material because of its proximity to astrology, both physically and as an art, like literally the books were next to each other, right? Which is, by the way, you know, a reason to go to bookstores, right? [laughs] Yeah, I mean, yeah, I can get it on Amazon, but a good bookstore, you're going to encounter things that are proximal to, you know, to what you're doing. It may be that what you think you want is actually just, you know, a pathway to the thing that's right across from it on the shelf, right?  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: Anyway. And so, yeah, I jumped into the magic, I memorized, the, you know, Golden Dawn correspondences, and I went crazy with some shadow tarot and Typhonian OTO stuff, and spirits, big spirits popped into my life from traditions I'd never had any intersection with, which was very, that was some of the most confusing. Some of the -- you know, some of the spirits whose names are, you know, primarily found in Haitian vodou popped into my life, and I literally had to look up what these awesomely powerful figures were, cause I didn't even know the names.  ANDREW: I think there's some sort of fundamental connection between that sort of Thelemic occurrence, right? And those African diasporic spirits, right? AUSTIN: I -- ANDREW: Not to interrupt your whole line of thought.  AUSTIN: No no no no no, that's a really interesting, there's the, well, I'm not, it would be impossible to characterize me as a Thelemite at any point, but, you know, if we're talking about the larger Thelemic current, you know going from Crowley and then to Grant and then working with Linda Falorio's, I don't know, you could call it reification of the tunnels? What I found -- what I got from that was like a deep magical enema! [laughs] It like blew open, it opened up all of these channels. It made all of these ... It created all of these wonderful emptinesses and absences, which you need ... A channel needs to be empty in the middle, right?  ANDREW: Yeah. AUSTIN: And that allowed a lot of stuff to come in.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: And that's funny, I don't hear people talking about that material in terms of creating, sort of, you know, it's sort of like draining out the nightmares from a tunnel, so that there's a ... so that that beautiful and fecund absence can then, you know, things can emerge from that, that more primordial state. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: And part of my experience was probably because I was coming from, you know, a couple of years of intense Taoist practice ... ANDREW: Right. AUSTIN: You know, where, there's a lot of ... there's a big focus on returning to the fertile void state, or Wu Chi, and then you're supposed to do that at the beginning of every Tai Chi form, and every pretty much any internal form ... and you know returning to that, and then emerging out of it, and so that was, you know, it's still a very important space. But anyway, that's what I ... that's part of what I got out of that tunnels work. And I was led by various loa to make some excellent changes in my life, and when then not too much longer ... or you know, and I experimented with some of the sort of Golden Dawn lodge-style planetary magic ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: You know the six and seven stars, and the Denning and Phillips Planetary Magic book, and that was interesting, but it didn't ... It didn't quite sing.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: Actually, you know, just a funny anecdote. The first sort of formal astrological magic operation I did was this evocation of the spirit of Jupiter -- or it was like a -- yeah, it was an evocation of the spirit of Jupiter, and I got this figure that was like this good-natured pigheaded mayor of, you know, like, he was like, "I'm the mayor!" you know, like kind of big and jovial, and I was like, "Pigheaded, huh?" Like not stubborn, but like literally had a big hog head.  ANDREW: Yeah.  AUSTIN: And only maybe last year I was reading Jeffrey Kotyk's dissertation, and Jeffrey Kotyk does some really interesting work. He's looking at astrological texts in Tang era China, and what he's finding are translations of core Hellenistic astrologer, astrology texts, like Dorotheus, as well as a lot of Persian and Indian material, and it's being kind of received, and redescribed, and it gets all the way to Japan, all of that material gets all the way to Japan by the 10th century, which is a very different shape of transmission than what most people have been thinking. Anyway.  So, in one of these texts is like, how to make a magical image so that this planet, you know, you'll have this planet's favor, and it won't fuck you up. And the Jupiter one is, involves the hog. Like in some of those traditions they see the animal of Jupiter consistently being the pig. And so, these are, you know, these are these funny things where you just experience something and then you find out, you know, sometimes years later, that, oh yeah, thousands of people saw exactly that when they looked, you know, deeper into Jupiter's sphere.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm.  AUSTIN: But anyways, you know, so I was doing experiments, and then the -- someone placed the Picatrix in my hand and said "I think you'll know what to do with this," and this was -- this was -- I think this was 2007. And this was when -- this was before the Warnock Greer translation of the Latin, and it was the first volume from Ouroborus Press, and that was all that was available then, and so, I cracked that open and read it, and I was like, "Oh yes, this is it," and went about experimenting immediately. Well, as soon as the next favorable election was.  ANDREW: Right.  AUSTIN: Because the ... That current of traditional talismanic astrological magic doesn't, how shall we say, it brings all of the sophisticated timing that astrology provides directly to bear on the operation, and it -- in my experience, it allows for a much much much much much higher voltage current, to transform the things around one, than the lodge style approach to planetary magic.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. I think it's -- I've done both, at different times? You know, I've spent a lot of time in the OTO and, you know, doing a lot of that kind of stuff, and in the Aurum Solis, and doing that sort of planetary work -- AUSTIN: Mmm. ANDREW: Within that, and so on-- but, you know, it's funny, like the things, a lot of the more formal stuff was fruitful for whatever it was that it was being worked on, but some of the better things that I ever did were works where I was only focused on myself, right? They were sort of like these internal planetary workings, you know?  AUSTIN: Mmmhmm, mmmhmm. ANDREW: So like I remember, the most significant of which was that I spent a year invoking the moon at each of its transitions between the signs, and doing essentially like a communion ceremony with that, and internalizing that energy as a way of attempting to redress the imbalances that I experienced, both through my understanding of my chart, which was fairly limited at that time, but also through sort of my psychological and emotional imbalances that I was experiencing, you know, and that sort of repeated cyclical work was so helpful at shifting those things, you know? And I no longer remember where I got the idea from, because it's not anything I ever really came across, it was sort of definitely came out of a hybrid of what I was seeing done and it's almost the extent, the depth at which I felt I needed to work in order to make those shifts, right? So, yeah, I think there's a lot -- it's fascinating. AUSTIN: That 100% makes sense to me. And I've also sort of ended up doing stuff like that. I still do stuff like that, even though, you know, there wasn't a text that suggests that. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: I think that that cycle of work, or course of work model, with a particular planet is ... That is, that's sort of the slowly sanding down the rough edges of that sphere within you and the way that it manifests in your life, and that in many ways I would say that that's the foundation of, how shall we say, being like the archetypal perfect astrological magician. Is that you get to know, and you do your best to perfect all of the spheres within you.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: Now, that makes -- that's connected very closely to some traditions of astrology in India. I've recently begun studying the Parashara tradition with a teacher, with a lineage holding teacher. And the way that they address, one of the ways that they address remediation is, I don't know, you know, my Mercury sucks, so how do I improve that area of my life, right? ANDREW: Yeah.  AUSTIN: Is that [missing time -- 00:16:33-16:55]  ANDREW: Can you hear me?  AUSTIN: It happens. ANDREW: So, you were just talking about, basically you just started mentioning the India thing, and how they were remediating their Mercury, or whatever they were going to -- AUSTIN: Yeah. Right. So, the ... One approach to remediation is basically, it's basically a cycle of planetary work. You know, they'll use a deity connected to a planet. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: And so, you know, you'll do a particular mantra, which is -- You know, when you really look at the structure of mantras and how they're used, you know, it's a blurry line between prayer, spell, conjuration, and mantra, in a lot of cases, but you know, you would do that, you would do your work regularly according to the astrological calendar. Like if you're working on your Mercury, you'd work Mercury, every, you know, every Wednesday during a particular planetary hour, and, you know, for your Mercury you might use, you know, a Ganesh mantra, where [missing time 00:18:00-18:07] whereas another person might use -- divine forms associated with each planet, it's not just one for one, but that's very, you know, when you look at it from a distance, it's very similar to doing a cycle of work. ANDREW: Yeah. AUSTIN: I -- have you ever done, sort of like a planetary prayer or attunement every day on the day and hour of the planet for a week or two?  ANDREW: I mean, not so much with that. You know, I mean, I did Resh, so the four points of the day, for a long time, the solar adorations, and I did, you know, I did a lot of sort of working with and invoking those kinds of things, but a lot of my other practices that were ongoing were structured purely at the times that were convenient, so I would ... I did a year of mantra work and I would just do it at the same time every morning every day because that was the only time that fit into my lifestyle, so I didn't have the luxury of, or maybe even the consideration at that point of time of tying it to other forces.  ANDREW: Well, we're stuck again.  AUSTIN: Yeah. I found some ...  ANDREW: So, you were just asking me if I had done a sort of series of works that were tied to a planetary hour, which isn't really something that I had done, in a concrete way. I mean, transitions and stuff like with the moon, whatever time of day it changed signs, I tried my best to be in the temple at that time, but otherwise, not so much, but I'm assuming from your question that you have. AUSTIN: Oh yeah. It's a not terribly difficult or time-intensive way to really get a sense of what the different planetary currents are, in an experiential way ...  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: And, you know, and, by, you know, essentially kind of sipping from that cup, every day, you get a sense of both what the planet's essential quality is, as well as how that is changed, modified, obstructed, or supercharged by what's happening now with that planet. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: And so yeah, that's something I just kind of, I didn't set it as like, you know, we're going to do this every day for a month. It's just something I probably do, five to seven times a week. It's just, you know, I just, you know, take 15 minutes. They're not big rites, but it's just hooking in, because the day itself, that's sort of the juice the day itself is running on, the quality of time, which intersects with the day. It's an easy and useful course of work. I believe Gordon White actually suggests that to his members in his membership sort of group project area. I was happy to see that.  ANDREW: Yeah. Well, I think it's so helpful to really understand astrology, at least in my experience, to have more experiences of it. Right? So often people come into my shop for a reading or whatever, like, I want a reading for this person, giving them some advice, and they're like "Oh, I have this sign, so I could never do that," so I'm like, "All right. But, like, I think you have options, right?" But people have these notions that they've acquired about what their charts mean or what this and that means. But these practical experiences of it, you know, I think they hand the real truth of the ability that we have to shape or modify or soften or ameliorate things to our advantage, as well as building that understanding about how we interact with what's going on now both in the world and in the sky AUSTIN: Yeah, totally. I find myself thinking about working with the energies present, you know, on whatever day as well as those present in my natal chart. I tend to default to thinking about them in Chinese medical terms, traditional Chinese medical terms? Right, you can, with any, you know, any point on the energy meridians, you can tonify it, you can basically boost it, you can strengthen that energy, you can disperse that energy, you can work on circulating it or cleaning it, you know, in a sense there's like pacify, clarify, and stimulate.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: You know, and you might have a chart where, oh, let's say, Mercury is playing a really key role. Like let's say you have Mercury in the 10th house, and so you know, what you're going to be ... That means that your professional life will demand a lot of mercurial action from you. I for example have Mercury in the 10th, and so it's my ... I always have to put things into words ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: Because I speak and write about these topics. And so, there are ... there's a lot of demand for Mercury, in my professional life.  ANDREW: Right. AUSTIN: Now, you can have a situation in a chart where a particular energy is of pivotal importance, but you don't necessarily, you aren't necessarily blessed with the abundance and clarity of that energy that you need or that, you know, it would be really nice if you had a little bit more of that.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: And so, you know, that would be an example where you wanted to boost that energy. Right? Cause where you're like, no no, I need more, I have like 12 more pages in this book and it's due, you know, in three days, the draft is due in three days ... ANDREW: Yeah!  AUSTIN: And so, you know, that would be an example of like, needs more. You know, that's where you'd stimulate or add a bunch more Mercury to it. Then you might have, oh, I don't know, maybe a gnarly configuration, let's say Saturn conjunct, oh, let's just say Saturn ruling your 7th house, right, where Saturn is going to speak to the development of romantic matters in your life and let's say Saturn's in kind of a rough condition, and it's, you know, it's just kind of all Saturn all the time. Even when you're with somebody, you feel, you know, you feel confined or alone, you have a hard time breaking through your own walls, right, there's too much Saturn. And so that would be, you know that would be a point where you'd want to calm or sedate Saturn.  ANDREW: Yeah. AUSTIN: And this is actually something I've been thinking about a lot lately. Partially because I'm teaching a class on traditional astrological talismans for the first time, but, there are other reasons as well, it's just come up, is that, is looking at the structure of conjurations and prayers, to the planets particularly, there's a big, there's a difference between praising, you know praising, exalting, and thereby evoking the energy and power of that sphere. Like that stimulates it. Whereas, you know, if you look at, I don't know, for example, some of the Orphic hymns, the Orphic hymn to Mars, is really, it's a "don't hurt me, bro" prayer.  ANDREW: [laughs] AUSTIN: It's not a like, "oh lord of the battlefield, fill me with Viking strength," right? It's a like, "you do all these things, and I recognize that, so could you not do that to me? Would that be cool?" ANDREW: Exactly. "How about you do that outside the walls of my city, or my house, or my heart," or whatever?  AUSTIN: Right. You know, "oh, lord of the forge, let's beat some swords into ploughshares, right, cause you can do that too, that's not maybe your favorite thing but you can do, let's do that version of it?"  ANDREW: Yeah.  AUSTIN: And, anyway, I've just been thinking about how, cause you know, in the past, those are the differences in function of the different planetary calls and conjurations have been less distinct for me. And also, you know, in the Parashara tradition, there's not one god, one planet. Well, there kind of is, but there kind of isn't. You would address, so, I don't know, let's find a good example. Okay! Let's ... for gods that intersect with Mars. Right? Let's ... There's Aries, obviously ... ANDREW: Sure. AUSTIN: And then -- But we could also look at Ogun. Right? Ogun is not Mars. But Ogun can definitely work through and help you work with martial energy. Right? It's important not to conflate them. But, you know if we compare the stories and the quality of the Greek Aries with the West African Ogun, there are different elements that are emphasized. Ogun, for example, has a very constructive quality, you know, industrial strength labor. The ability to heat, beat, and shape the metal and thereby the material world. Right?  ANDREW: Sure.  AUSTIN: And the machete not only chops off heads, it also clears the pathway, right? It clears the forest. And so, if we look at the traditional planetary significations of Mars, Mars is absolutely the, you know, the planet where you see blacksmithing and heavy industry, you know, it's all there. And so, you're going to get a different, you know, if you're sort of going through a planet to get to a god, and then you're asking a god to shape that planet, or help you work with that planet, you know, the different figures that, you know, the basically, the name that you pick, the god that you see in dwelling the planet is going to change the nature of the operations as a result. Does that make sense?  ANDREW: Yeah, for sure. AUSTIN: Okay. ANDREW: You really want to shape it by being clear what you need, right, and what you want. Whether that's more or less or a particular aspect, or hey, do what you're doing but don't do it in the house, or you know, whatever, right?  AUSTIN: [laughs] Yeah.  ANDREW: You know, I think of -- I have Mars in Aries, right, and I think -- AUSTIN: Oh, okay! ANDREW: About it. Number 1, it's the gas in the tank. I have a lot of gas in the tank a lot of the time. Right? Sometimes I rely on it too much and that doesn't go so well. But it's also the thing that had me doing martial arts for a long time and constantly being like, more, harder, faster, let's go, let's go, let's push the limit, right? And then you know, there came this point where I was like, "less, less of that! That is not helpful!" You know? And I remember, explicitly, I went skydiving with a bunch of friends, and everybody landed and was like "Oh my god, it's the best thing ever," and I landed, and my pulse wasn't even going, because I was doing so much high adrenaline stuff all the time ... AUSTIN: [laughing] ANDREW: And I was like, "Yeah, it was cool, whatever." And then a few days later I was like, "No, this has to stop. This is not -- that energy is too unbridled for whatever reasons, and now I need to pull that back," right?  AUSTIN: Well -- so generally speaking, a planet that is in a sign that it rules, like Mars in Aries, one, it, unless it's being interfered with by other planets, that area just works naturally, it's like "Oh yeah, you know, like, how do, what do you do when it's go time? Oh, you just go!" Like, that's the Mars in Aries answer.  ANDREW: Yeah.  AUSTIN: Whereas, you know, Mars in Cancer might be like, "Yeah, but it's really uncomfortable to go, and I might, you know, like, you know ..." There's the sideways crab walking.  ANDREW: Yeah.  AUSTIN: So, it's great to have a planet in the sign that it rules, but there is the danger of excess, because that feels so natural and easy, even if it's hard.  ANDREW: Yeah! AUSTIN: Right? Mars is how we deal with things that are hard and fast, but you're like, oh no, it's natural and easy to deal with things that are hard and fast.  ANDREW: For sure, my motto back at that time was, "If I'm afraid, I should do it, and if I'm really afraid, I should do it now." [laughs] That was it. That was a number of years of my life, right?  AUSTIN: Well, that is a recipe for maximum adrenaline, right?  ANDREW: Right, exactly! You know? So, it's fascinating. But then there's also this thing where, it's time to turn it down, right? Time to roll that back into other things, you know? And so, there was then that process of kind of shifting that focus and doing some work and switching more to internal martial arts -- AUSTIN: Oh! ANDREW: The Qigong and Tai Chi type stuff, you know coincided with my interest in the I Ching, and a lot of explorations through that and so on, so you know, yeah, it's one of those things where yeah, I grabbed that energy by the horns and like slow it down, and it was very frustrating for a period of time, because it did not want to be slow. But you learn a lot, you know?  AUSTIN: I had a very similar experience. [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah, for sure! Go ahead!  AUSTIN: Oh no. If I keep going, I'll tangent on martial arts for an hour, so -- ANDREW: [laughing] Well, that'll be a separate episode. We'll have some martial arts talk. So, I think that one of the things that always interests me about astrology is this sort of, this notion of, it can explain everything, in a certain way, like that's definitely sort of the sense of it, right? There's patterns, there's the pieces, there's what's going on. But you know, I hit this point in my own astrology studies where I felt like I had to choose between continuing to proceed full on into tarot stuff, which you know I felt like kind of my superpower area, and the level of study that I would need to kind of continue to understand these complexities and that. And the one thing that I found, though, kind of over time, was that there were things that emerged that I started looking at that were never what I really would have expected. You know, I find the indirects in my chart super-instructive, whether that's just my chart or whether that's the nature of them, or, you know, like those kinds of things, but I'm curious, like, what are, you know, and people know what their sun and their moon and whatever are probably, right? But like, what are some of the other ideas or other things that you look at that are maybe not, you know, a first glance, you know, from reading a book on it kind of idea? What are the placements, or the angles, what are things that sort of stand out to you as things that seem significant? AUSTIN: Well. I mean, that's a big question.  ANDREW: I know! AUSTIN: I mean starting with sun, moon, and rising sign -- ANDREW: And if it's too big a question or too unfair-- AUSTIN: I think I can chunk it down.  ANDREW: Yeah. AUSTIN: So, two things. One, so, you know, the very basics of astrology are the positions of all the planets in the zodiac and those positions in the houses, so that's actually quite a bit, right there, and then the relationship between the significant angles or relationships between those planets, the aspects and their meaning, and then, a lot of people after some study will get that far, but the one thing that's been underemphasized before the semi-recent traditional revival is the role of essential dignity in a chart, which is, you know, what is the difference between a planet in a sign that it rules versus a sign where it's exalted, versus detriment, what is triplicity dignity and all these things, and that gives you a whole.... That gives you a tremendous amount of depth, and it also allows you to gauge not just the type of result -- and we could say, oh, you know, Mars rules the 7th house of relationship, and so we will see, you know, that person will tend to be in fiery and passionate affairs, they don't want to get bored, they don't mind a little adrenaline in the bedroom. But is it ... There are much more functional and much less functional versions of that. And that's -- you know, judging not just type of event, but quality of event. You know, you could have something that was fast and violent but very favorable, and of course you can have things that are fast and violent and extremely unfavorable, and so, essential dignity plays a very important role in being able to predict that appropriately.  A lot of people are aware to some degree of transits, which is, of course, the relationship of where the planets are now to where they are in your natal chart, and that's a widely used prognostic technique. But one of the -- And that's, you know, the 20th century's made good use of and developed that particular technique. But one of the things that is an absolute staple in any sort of pre-18th century astrology, going back a solid 2000 years are what could be classed as a whole ... Time lord techniques. And so, time lord techniques basically will give you periods of your life that are ruled by a particular planet. And so, you know, for example, the largest scale one is called zodiacal releasing, which is from the second century work of an astrologer named Vettius Valens. And so, in zodiacal releasing, you'll have these big chapters of your life which last between eight and 30 years, and, you know, they're ruled by a particular planet, and so this gives you a tool for looking at biographies, and like, you know, the ... What does it mean to come to the end of a 15-year chapter of your life? It's a huge thing, right? And so, the idea, though, let's say Mars is a 15-year chapter. The idea isn't just that yeah, it's Marsy, it's that's the time period where all the significations and meanings of your natal Mars will become obvious and enfleshed in your life. The time lord techniques are, they're basically, the metaphor I usually use is, they're the mechanism by which the latent becomes apparent in a person's life, with any given planetary position, they're an internal clock like puberty, right?  ANDREW: Right.  AUSTIN: You know, it's getting ... It's growing hair in new places time; that's just what time it is. And that can be favorable, that can be unfavorable; the environment can facilitate that, the environment can impede that, but it's that time. And so, time lord techniques as a whole give you that clock for when you'll see that part of a person's life unfold. Right cause we, you can look at your chart and you can find all of those spheres within you at any given time, but it's not, excuse me, they're not characterizing the theater of life and what's actually happening equally all the time. It's sort of whose turn is it? So that provides a whole perspective on a chart and life, and I would say is essential to making even reasonably accurate ... It's essential to making consistently accurate predictions about what a time period will be like for someone. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. That's fascinating because we all have these pieces, right? But when are they active, and what does that mean? And what does it mean to have something that's active later in life than earlier, whatever, right, because you're not tied to, if I understand you correctly, they're not tied to exactly the same way that everybody's Saturn return is at roughly the same time, they're tied to different patterns, right?  AUSTIN: Exactly. Exactly.  ANDREW: And so hence why somebody peaks early or peaks late or overcomes obstacles at some point or you know, those things, it's their chart, right?  AUSTIN: Or they wake up one day and they're like, you know, I feel like, they're just sort of ... So if you do consulting work, so when you get consulting work sometimes somebody will be like, "yeah, I just, I don't know, I'm doing this and it's fine but I just feel like I'm going somewhere else and I don't know what it is," and consistently, somebody will come to me with that, and it's like, well yeah, you're moving out of a 27-year period into a 30-year period, of course it's going to be kind of disorienting. Like, people can feel those shifts. And that's part of learning astrology and appreciating astrology, is like seeing, oh, this person doesn't know this obscure Roman astrological technique, but what they're telling me is exactly what this says.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm.  AUSTIN: And of course, when you have perfect matches like that, you can be like, well, this technique says exactly that about your life, and we can talk a little bit about, you know we can contrast the nature of where you're coming from and where you're going to, and help you see it more clearly, but there's also, there's something grounding in finding out that it's not just all in your head. If a stranger can do math on the positions of the planets in your birth chart and figure out that you would be in this place emotionally at this time, then it must not just be an eccentricity. You're responding to something deeper. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: You know, the deep weave of the fabric of your own life.  ANDREW: Yeah. Well and I think it, I personally love it when people are experiencing that even if they don't have the words for it, right? Because then when you can bring it up with them, whether it's what you're talking about or like, I did a reading for somebody recently and the central card was the Hierophant in their reading, and about halfway through the reading, they're like, "So, I'm going to tell you now, I didn't want to tell you earlier, but like, this card's been coming up for like the last year ALL the time," and we had this big conversation about it, and I was like, "Oh, perfect," which goes with what I was telling them in the beginning which they were arguing with me about, which was "you actually already know everything that's going on here, and exactly what you need to be doing, but let's talk it through and talk about why you're not owning that," you know?  AUSTIN: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And so, like they ... having those moments when you can pinpoint something like that and hand that back to a person is so empowering, right? Because then it takes us back to this place where ... back to the earlier part of this conversation really where we're experiencing these things, and if we're attentive, if we have space in ourselves and our lives where we can feel those things or be mindful of them, then we can do something with them, and even if we don't know what we're doing with them, we can go and find someone to help us do something with them.  AUSTIN: Mmmhmm, Mmmhmm, Mmmhmm. Yeah, it's, I think an important part of astrology is really paying attention to the quality of different time periods and realizing that, you know, time is as dramatic a landscape as space ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: You know that they're, you know, there are times that are hot and dry, and there are those that are cold and wet, and there are, you know, there are those that are abundant and full of life, there are different landscapes, and, you know, if you bring the desert protocol to the meadow, you're going to be out of sync, right? And if you bring the meadow protocol to the desert, you're going to be very unhappy.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Yeah. And I think that, you know, well, I wonder, were people more living closely with the cycles of nature and the cycles of things. You know, these things make a lot of sense, right? You know, I had the good pleasure of doing ceremony on the same piece of land every month for two years, right? The cycle of, you know, there are those times when I was standing there and there was like a foot of snow and it was blizzarding and I was looking at this tree and doing the ceremony, and there were those times where it was like, you know, so hot, like 35 degrees Celsius, and sunny and clear and standing there looking at those trees, you know, and being in those spaces through all the cycles, I think really can cue us into those planetary changes too, and the way in which the same thing is different at different times. You know and which we -- AUSTIN: Ohhhh. ANDREW: ... have this false continuity of things, which they continue but they're different, right?  AUSTIN: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Would you say the same space is different at different times? Or the same place?  ANDREW: Yeah. AUSTIN: Like -- I think that's a really nice way to put it. Yeah, and the seasons are the, you know, the place to start with that, for that realization, and then that is most certainly a rabbit hole, cause it goes beyond the seasons. But that -- just living with the seasons teaches you that that is true, that the same place is different at different times, and once you realize that that is the quality, then you can follow that to more subtle levels.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Yeah. And I also love it when there are options to see the planets themselves and so on. I remember, when I was, maybe 15 years ago, or so, back when Mars was maybe the closest it would be for some time, that sort of zenith of that arc ... AUSTIN: Yeah. ANDREW: And I remember the balcony of my house, we could see it, going across the sky, you know? And we would just go out there and turn off all the lights in the house and watch Mars move and watch the moon move across the sky and the various other things, and you know, it's such an amazing, to be able to sort of sit and connect with those things, you know?  AUSTIN: Oh yeah. And you can feel 'em. [phone rings] I'm an asshole. Let me turn my phone off. That was our invocation of Mars calling for disruption. I apologize, giant podcast faux pas, I'm actually so not a phone person that I forget that it's around ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm.  AUSTIN: Anyway. But yeah, with the light, the visible light of the planets is important. And that's another piece that astrologers have done a really good job recovering over the last 20 years, is making, reminding astrologers that a chart with 12 signs and houses -- and glyphs -- is a very useful thing, but that is an, that is a way of looking at the sky, it's like a decoder ring -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: But the sky is primary, right? That is the fundamental and primordial thing, and we can do things with it. And especially if you're doing any sort of energetic or magical work with the planets -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: [laughs] It's certainly much more useful to be able to see them and feel them. I mean who hasn't looked up at a full moon and been like "Whoa!" and just gotten a little blast from that?  ANDREW: Yeah. AUSTIN: Not just cognitively but energetically, you're like "Ooooookay!" That is strong drink, sir!  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Well and just like that you know you see the -- you know, it's on the horizon there, when the moon's coming up over the horizon it's huge, and you don't expect it to be that size, where the colors are different and all these things, you know? Yeah.  AUSTIN: Yeah, and that's -- yeah, that's in a sense the root of astrology, but sometimes, when a tree grows tall enough, the little flowers haven't had a chance to meet the root, or don't realize what's feeding them, and so, one of -- it's interesting astrology a lot -- in a way that's almost parallel to magic -- has benefitted immensely from a surfeit of translations of older works. You know, we have, you know most of the 2100 or so years of the astrological tradition in textual form and available now for the first time in a very long time.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm.  AUSTIN: And so-- ANDREW: And that's a profound depth of history, right? You know, like, people come to tarot and be like, oh, it's from wherever, and like, yeah, it's not that old. But astrology's that old, right?  AUSTIN: Well, and yeah, that is, to that 2100-year-old figure, that is the age of pretty much exactly the same system that people are using in the 20th century, people in the 20th century are missing some pieces, you know, cause things don't necessarily move in an evolutionary manner, right? It's not better every year -- ANDREW: Sure. AUSTIN: It's, you know, things get lost in transmission, things get added, things get lost again. But that core signs, houses, planets, aspects, angles, is there 2100 years ago. And, you know, a magical and prognostic relationship to the sky of course has to predate that immensely. If we're going to follow that, we're going to end up at a time depth that is so far beyond written documentation. ANDREW: Yeah. AUSTIN: And so, you know, astrology's benefited immensely from recovering its own history, which can, which, you know, and sometimes, and you've probably seen this in magicland, where people recover a piece of history, and they're like, "Oh, well you have to do it like the Hygromanteia. Everything you're doing in a Golden Dawn-style lodge is incorrect because this older thing says something different. Right? There's that sort of cranky traditionalist approach, and we get, we have, we certainly have some of that in astrology, but you know, as long as we can avoid that excess, it helps not only does it give us access to quite literally the wisdom of our ancestors in a tradition, but it can also contextualize new developments, you're like, "Oh, I think, this other technique, I came up with this new technique," well, now you have a context for that, and you can see examples using the same logic from different traditions, and so properly rated, the tomb is fertile soil for new life.  ANDREW: Yeah. If you approach this stuff with curiosity, as opposed to like with the fervor of fanaticism, or the dismissiveness of what you're doing, then what can be fruitful will really emerge, right?  AUSTIN: Yeah.  ANDREW: Oh, yeah, you know what, let's bring back this piece. Let's try this for some time and see what happens, right?  AUSTIN: Yeah, yeah, I mean, reconstruction is also inherently experimental, I think?  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: It can be approached with dogmatic fervor, but you don't know what's going to happen when you perfect the reconstruction. You can hope that it'll be a better version of the thing that you're already doing, but you literally don't know because you've never done it. You know, you've never -- one of the metaphors Gordon White likes to use for some elements of magic is that it's, you know, it's like plans to build an alien spaceship?  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: You know, it's alien technology, and the instructions for how to build it are all in the book, but you won't know what it's like to fly that thing or what it's really gonna do until you put it back together.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: And you know, astrology, I would say, especially from our point of view in the contemporary West, very much alien technology. It implies an entire worldview and thinking and mechanics that are alien.  ANDREW: Yeah, I think, that's interesting. So, one of my biggest magical focuses recently has been centered around leaving the earth, as sort of a notion, right?  AUSTIN: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And coinciding with that, I've been collecting meteorites and working with meteorites, as a sort of energetic connection to this sort of interstellar traveler, right?  AUSTIN: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: That idea of, "I need to go somewhere else and I need to be somewhere bigger," is the notion that I often come back to, but it's exactly that, I have no idea what exactly that means, right? And I don't really know what that technology is going to be like in action, and as I've been doing it over the last six or eight months and working with these things, I'm noticing the changes and some of them are not at all what I would have expected, right? You know, obviously I'm not actually leaving the Earth, or you know, so on, but I'm trying to use this as a metaphor and a model for changing consciousness, and you know, it really, it's fascinating how that makes pathways to ideas that never even existed, and it's amazing what comes along for the ride. Oh, you know what, I don't remember putting that in the hold, but I guess that is part of the journey, then, right?  AUSTIN: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. On a general note, it seems like the stellar and perhaps even the interstellar as a layer of the real has been beckoning to the human over the last couple years -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: I've felt increasingly drawn to work with the stellar layer of astrology and astrological magic and it did things, exposing myself to that radiation did some interesting things. [laughs] ANDREW: Fair enough. So, what does the stellar or the intergalactic mean in terms of astrology, like?  AUSTIN: So, on a really simple level, but very important level, the planets move, and the stars don't. From our point of view. And certainly, you know, the planets are, they're racing around the sun, and first they're against this stellar backdrop, and now they're in line with that star, and you know, that's what planet means. The Greek root for planet means wanderer. It's a wandering star as opposed to a fixed star. And the planets are also quite literally subservient to the sun, to our star, they are all once pieces of the same undifferentiated matter, and they, you know, they obey the sun in motion and are fed by its light. Right?  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: So, we're dealing with, you know, something, we're dealing with the children of stars rather than stars.  ANDREW: Yeah.  AUSTIN: Whereas each of the stars whose light reaches into our system is its own sovereign; it's its own parent. If we're looking on a ... just on a physical level at ranks of beings in the physical world, there's nothing really beyond stars. Maybe black holes? I don't know. Their nature is still illusive. But like stars are the biggest things, they're the biggest distinct beings or entities. ANDREW: Yeah.  AUSTIN: And, so, what's interesting is the stars are considered ... So, if we look at the Picatrix, which is, for people who aren't familiar with it, the big book of astrological magic ... ANDREW: Yeah. AUSTIN: It's an 11th century, originally written in Arabic, translated and modified a little bit, showed up in Latin a few centuries later and has been tremendously influential. You know, so the Picatrix, when talking about the intersection between stellar and planetary, says that you know if you want something to, you know if you're doing a working, right, and you want the pattern that you're impressing into the world to be enduring, and you know, eternal, enduring to not just be a quick change or a difference next month, that you then align, you align the power of a star and a planet. You let that star manifest through that planet. You get -- the planet is like the lens that brings it into our system, but the star is going to provide a higher-octane laser with which to etch a pattern into life.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: Anyway, there's so much to talk about with stars.  ANDREW: Not un -- not dissimilar in some ways to using a god to come through a planet or using, you know, you're lining up those other energies and then you are creating a bigger vibration or power or possibility through them, right?  AUSTIN: Exactly. Well and that's the art, the traditional astrological talismanic art, is you have the planet, right? and that is, we can see that as one link on a chain of being, but you don't just, you know, you don't just heat up that planet, you have the words that you speak, the way that you're dressed, as well as the way that you speak, should all be of the same nature, your surroundings ideally should be of the same nature, and the material you make the talisman of should be a representation of the same nature at the level of stone, right? The incense should be made of plants that are of the same nature at the vegetative level, right? And, you know, basically, when the art is perfect, everything at every point in the chain of being, you know, from the unnamable all the way down to the dirt beneath your feet should be exactly of one nature, and that's, you know, there's a huge difference experientially and results-wise when you bring every level to bear on making -- impressing a change into reality.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm.  AUSTIN: So, you know... whereas, you can get away with not having the incense, or just doing a paper talisman instead of stone, and you know, maybe having the planet like, not in the best condition, you can do stuff, and stuff'll happen, but it's when, it's when you have, it's in a sense on every level the same reality as far as you know. And it's all tuned to the same, you know, you get that pow. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Cause I mean, necessity wins out when you have to do something today for something tomorrow, that's the end of the conversation, just do the thing, right? AUSTIN: Well and, what I would say, cause again I've been teaching this material for the first time, traditional astrological talismanic magic is absolutely not emergency magic. It's making lasting permanent life-altering changes. It's like building -- it's literally carving a stone, and it's carving the stone of your life. It's building a temple. It's building the pyramids. It's big and lasting, and so you can actually fuck yourself up pretty good if you use that protocol when the elements aren't aligned very well, because you'll impress really deeply into, you know, into the talisman, a pattern that might be good enough for tomorrow, but you don't want to let that pattern colonize your life. You know, some of my sort of hard core astro-talismanic friends, all of us have stories ranging from horrible to hilarious about when we thought this was good enough and made it anyway and we knew we were wrong. Like a friend of mine told me a story about how she made this fixed star talisman, and basically there are a lot of things that are good about the star, but if you look at the lore, there's this association with wounded feet ... ANDREW: Okay.  AUSTIN: And then, she picked a time where ... she picked a time to work that star where Mars was extremely prominent and configured to that star, and she got ... and she was wearing the talisman for a couple weeks, and all the good things that are associated with that talisman happened, and she fell down the stairs and couldn't walk properly for six months.  ANDREW: Right.  AUSTIN: And that wasn't what she asked for, it's just that that's what that moment in time could provide. And if, you know, if she just did a sort of like, more of a petition, like a quickie spell, to that star, just got enough juice to, you know, move that brick three feet over, or to have the energy to do, you know, whatever labors were demanded over the next week wouldn't have had that, but with the full on talismanic art, you're impressing that pattern really deeply, and you'll get the pieces of that moment in time that you didn't ask for but are part of it anyway. ANDREW: You get the whole picture. AUSTIN: Yeah. And that's why the rules are so picky. You can be like, yeah, but what if I have to? Then don't do a talisman, don't do that style of talisman, do a planetary position, you can do that, it'll work.  ANDREW: Go to the Picatrix and call somebody up, and be like, "hey, come and help me with this thing for a few days," whatever.  AUSTIN: Yeah. Exactly. I do micro-planetary magic every day. You know I'll heat up the altar, I've got little informal planetary altars all around my office and house, and so you know during my ten minutes of just, like, checking in and tasting the brew, I might do a little thing to nudge something, cause that's all I need, and I don't need a lot of power to nudge it. You don't need to go full talisman for most things.  ANDREW: Yeah. Yeah. I had Jason Miller on recently and we were talking about, don't do emergency, try not to let it get to emergency magic level, cause that sort of stuff always comes up at some point in our lives, but let's have relationships, let's be in the magic, let's live the magic, let's be in the flow of the magic and work with that, and hopefully we'll be in that place where things become required. And like you say those little adjustments, right?  AUSTIN: Yeah. Always steering? It's funny that you bring Jason up, because, so, I absolutely have to plug my book that's coming out? Because -- I say mine, but there are eleven other authors. I coedited it -- it feels like my baby, but, you know, even a baby is not your possession, right? Although one does tend to be possessive. So, this is an anthology of essays about astrological magic. It's going to be -- it's being published by Three Hands Press; I coedited it with Daniel Schulke, and it's got an essay by me on the fixed stars, and Daniel on the planetary viscera of witchcraft, which is a wonderful meditation, I had the pleasure of editing that recently. But Jason is also one of the contributors. And I brought Jason on for exactly what he delivered, which is you know, okay, when the stars aren't right, what can you do? How can you maybe get something that looks Venusian from Mars? You know, it's that practical, you know, getting into it, I brought him into it for the nuances of practice and how, the better you understand the planets, the more you can do with any one sphere, and he gave the example of how, there's a person who's having trouble with their love life, and all the Venus work in the world wasn't really changing things, but when Mars got brought on, and the focal point was the courage to face rejection, and the willingness to assert oneself, then everything clicked in, right? And so, we can say, relationships are Venusian, and that's true, but if when we're trying to untangle a particular knot, sometimes, in that particular case, it was Mars that needed to be tugged on, not Venus. And then, so, what I tried to do with the contributors that I invited was to provide both a historical overview and also to get people to articulate the traditional principles, and there are several people who did that really well, and then I also wanted -- I'd say the other half are about working with that material, and what you discover in practice, and what are maybe other ways of looking at things, what are -- how shall we say -- what are details of practice that aren't covered in thousand year old books, and what comes up along the way, and so, I believe at this point that we did a really nice job of sort of bridging the present, past, and future. But that will be up to the reader to decide. So that's called -- [cross talking 00:47:57]  AUSTIN: Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. It took a long time! [laughs] So I'm rather looking forward to its publication. It should be out in May and is called The Celestial Art.  ANDREW: The Celestial Art. Lovely. Well, maybe this is a good point to -- I think that I could spend all day talking with you about these things, but maybe we should wrap this up here for now, and why don't you tell people where they should come and hang out with you? You have a great newsletter, and stuff like that, so, yeah, where are you?  AUSTIN: Yeah. So, I'm at myname.com, I'm at AustinCoppock.com, and I offer online classes, both live and as well as the library of past material, I write on a -- not a weekly but a decanly basis, I wrote a book on the decans, or the division of sky and time into 36, and I've started doing my astrological column on that pattern rather than the weekly as an experiment. And I also write a short paragraph about every day's astrology, just a little bit about okay, here's what's in the air at a given time, and so yeah, you'll be able to find all my stuff there, and I'm on Facebook, I'm on Twitter. I didn't quite make it onto Instagram or anything that came after Twitter. I'm at that age where I'd adapted enough and began to ossify and dry out and wither.  ANDREW: [laughing] AUSTIN: I was like, I can't do any more of this! Another one!  ANDREW: There's another astrological endeavor, right? Which signs and or placements give people predilection for one platform over another? Because I think Instagram is the pinnacle of social media and the best thing ever, so.  AUSTIN: That -- I -- well what I was going to say is that totally -- we could say it's definitely fiery -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: Right, it's not as textual? It's more image based, it's a little bit more dynamic, yeah, and so you said you were ... you sun was in Sagitarrius and Mars in Aries?  ANDREW: Yeah.  AUSTIN: That's a great start for fire! [laughs] ANDREW: For sure.  AUSTIN: If nothing else is in fire then you are more than sufficiently enflamed.  ANDREW: My ascendant is in Leo, and yeah, I've got a bunch of, a pile of stuff in Sagittarius, so, yeah -- AUSTIN: Okay! [laughs] ANDREW: I got gallons of fire, yeah, for sure!  AUSTIN: I'm more water than anything else -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: So, I don't, yeah, Instagram seems a little loud for me, visually and otherwise. [laughing] ANDREW: Fair enough, fair enough. Well, thank you so much for making the time today, Austin, it's been a real pleasure. AUSTIN: Yeah, it has. Yeah. I enjoyed it. 

This week I'm joined by the one and only Ty Shaw. We dive deep into our connections with the Orishas and Ty talks us through some of her sexual empowerment work and how they all connect. Her work covers old traditions and new traditions, and her dedication to her practise is inspiring. This is one not to be missed! Connect with Ty through her website.  If you are interested in supporting this podcast though our Patreon you can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Thanks for listening! If you dig this please subscribe and share with those who would like it. Andrew   transcription  ANDREW: Welcome to another installment of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I am hanging out today with Ty Shaw, who is a fascinating human being. She practices a bunch of different traditions, and brings a lot of, you know, experience in a lot of different ways through life and spirituality to the conversation today. So, for folks who don't know who you are, Ty, why don't you introduce yourself? What -- Who are you and what are you about? TY: Oh, my god. Ooh child. Well, I am Ty Shaw, like you just said, and what am I about? I'm a Iyalorisa, palera Mambo, and a lot of other things, oh iyanifa, that's the most recent one! Always forget to list that one! ANDREW: Right. TY: And basically, what I have been doing is working with people within the tradition. I was obviously with my spiritual house, and the various, you know, people that I service in my communities, but my sort of day job now is in the space of sacred sexuality coaching, intimacy coaching, and really bringing, particularly, well, people in general, but women in particular, in alignment with sort of their spirituality and their sexuality, and kind of bridging that gap, and working in a space where people understand that when you talk about sacred sexuality that you don't have to look to India or to China or to Japan or to these other places, that we do have concepts of sacred sexuality from an African context ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: If you're willing to actually look at what we're doing and examine what we're doing. ANDREW: All right. Well, why don't you enlighten us on that? Because I know, you know, being a babalocha, right, you know? That sex, at least sex in general is very, we keep that inside of the Orisha tradition, you know, not inside of the tradition, but outside of the relationships and the connections there, you know, and people are often like, very slow to even get into conversations like that, because there is such an emphasis on having proper relationships and where those lines are ... TY: Right. ANDREW: So, where does that come from in what your experiences are for you? TY: Well, that's exactly why I do this work. Because our traditions are very conservative in how they look at sex ... ANDREW: Yeah. TY: Which to me, is not only counterproductive but contradictory, because everything we do mimics a sexual act on some level. If we want to take, say the babalawo for example, when the oluwo is pounding ikin, the oluwo is mimicking copulation, such that ikin, or odu, can give birth. When we go into the igbodú and we want to birth a new priest in the process of a kariocha, we are using the leads, singing the songs, doing the invocations ... ANDREW: Sure. TY: To get certain elements to give birth. You know, if we're sitting on the mat and we're divining with the odun and odí falls, or some iteration of oché, or something out of ogunda falls, we're going to be talking some sexual shit. [laughs] You know what I'm saying? ANDREW: I do! TY: Can you talk -- we deal with deities who cover these specific things. And, we deal with energy. We're priests. We understand that, just from a basic scientific perspective, that energy is neither created nor destroyed. It's how it's directed. So that means there is no difference between spiritual energy and sexual energy. And the fact that we vibrate on a different level as priests because we actively cultivate our energy -- we're cultivating our sexuality as well. And I think the fact that our traditions are so conservative, and don't allow for these deeper conversations, even though the liturgy, odu, the deities themselves, do speak of these things and act in these ways, because we haven't had these conversations and developed that language, we have what we see now, which is the manifestation of a plethora of, or an abundance rather, of sexual dysfunction, in an out of ritual in an out of the room, and a community of priests who are manipulating energies, but really have no basic concept of what energy is, how it works, and what you're conjuring. [laughs] So that's why I decided to get in that space. ANDREW: Yeah! So, when you're ... because lots of people who listen to this are not going to be practitioners of ATRs, or, you know, diasporic traditions or those things necessarily, let's pull this apart just a little bit more. Because I know exactly what I think you mean -- I mean, you're going to tell me if I'm right -- but -- I think one of the things that we want to make clear, is that some of the dysfunction that I think that you're talking about, I mean there's obviously the people who are having challenges themselves, which is a separate issue, but then there's the sort of dysfunction of people taking advantage of relationships, godparents, or other people who should be obeying a taboo that is like a parent to a child ... TY: Right. ANDREW: You know, or having relationships and using their power and position to take advantage of people. Right? We're talking about these kinds of things, right? TY: Right. Right. ANDREW: Yeah. TY: Well, one thing about that, we're talking about even in our intermittent relationships, we are seeing a lot of abuse coming to the surface, because of Facebook, sexual abuse, women who are being raped by their babalawo husbands, or men that I've encountered in this tradition who come seeking guidance and were molested by a godparent. You know? We have an abundance of people of color, amongst those people of color are women of color, and I personally in my adult life don't know any women of color who haven't experienced sexual abuse or sexual assault. So, we have this abundance of sort of sexual trauma, that comes up in our relationships in so many different ways, whether it's the baggage we bring to the tradition, or whether it's the abuse of power because of the dynamic within the tradition. But we still because of our conservativism, we don't have that conversation. ANDREW: Right. TY: And when we do, it's an accusatory one: You abused me. You did this. You didn't do booze up the bembé. You tried to take my husband. You know. But we don't necessarily have conversations around what the solutions are. What we're going to do about it. How do you fix them? If you're a babalawo that's married, and you have your apetdabe, how are you cultivating that sacred relationship? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: Because that's our version of it! [laughs] You know what I'm saying? In a certain way. On a certain level. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: How are we cultivating our intimate relationships? How does that affect our vibration and our energy and how we cultivate our Ase as priests, and then what does that look like in terms of how do we treat each other in our interpersonal relationships? ANDREW: Sure. And how are we dealing with our own ... I mean, even if we don't have the kinds of traumas you're talking about, you know, we all exist in a culture that, you know, experiences toxic masculinity, and rape culture, and all of these bits and pieces and all sorts of exploitative pieces left over from a long time, in our culture, right? TY: Yes. ANDREW: And how do we look at ourselves and become clear about what is our desire? What is real? How do we communicate? Where does consent fit? TY: Right. ANDREW: You know, all of these things, right? Like these are important pieces ... TY: Yeah. ANDREW: Of cultivating ... Well, I mean, being a decent human being, for one, but like, and certainly being a spiritual human being for another, right? You can't. TY: Yeah. And we can't deal with these forces that again, we're engaging in sort of spiritual sexual acts in the process of giving birth and getting odu to conceive and put something out there that's new, and then appeasing this newborn thing via ebbó. We do these things, but there's a disconnect, there's some sort of cognitive dissonance, you know, between the act and the metaphysical understanding of the act, you know? Mmmhmm. ANDREW: I also think that people don't understand energy, as you kind of said earlier. Right? TY: Yeah, exactly, exactly. ANDREW: You know, one of the things that I noticed when I became a priest was, all sorts of people who started hitting on me who weren't hitting on me before. TY: Yeah, because you were orisha. ANDREW: Right? And I got Shango on my head, right? I mean, that's going to draw some heat, right? And, you know, and the thing is, is that, if I wasn't mindful of it, if some of my elders hadn't said, hey, this is probably going to happen, take it easy about that, then you'd get into all sorts of trouble, right? Because what's going on is those people aren't necessarily attracted to me ... TY: It's that energy! ANDREW: They're feeling that energy, and they want more of that, but we don't understand how to get close to spirit, or how to be intimate with human beings, and not frame that in a sexual context. Right? TY: Or, if it's in a sexual context, that doesn't mean we have to act in a debased way. How about receiving the energy because we are, like Shango is the pillar of virility, male virility, male marknotism, that's his Ase, and it is sexual, there's no way around that. How about we accept that that's what it is, internalize it, and use it for what it does? As opposed to saying, well, I feel arousal, this means I must screw, this means I must ... you know. As opposed to no, these are what vibrations and energy do, and you know that's why I started getting into vibrational medicine, you know, prana, reiki, tantric projection work, because we already have heightened vibrations as a result of having gone through ritual. And ideally, we're cultivating our Ase, cultivating ori, we're developing and uplifting that vibration. But so many priests I would have a conversation with about energy, vibration, how we magnetize it and move, there was just such a lack of understanding, and a lot of times I feel that we're doing ebbó, we're killing chickens, but what you need is a chakra cleanery, what you need is a past life regression, what you need is some spiritual counseling, it's an issue on a base level with your vibration. Which ebbó does address, through the power of sacrifice, but you're still not internalizing that in your vibration. ANDREW: Well, it's like I popped my collar bone out of place, recently, right? And, you know, I went to my osteopath and put it back in place, but the reason I popped it out of place, was cause muscles in my back were out of balance, and that is a physiotherapy thing, and so now I need to be ... you know, and so, and I think that that's true on many levels, right? Spiritual practices can make adjustments ... TY: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And, in different kinds of spiritual practices, can be that physiotherapy ... TY: Right. ANDREW: But it's rare that one does all of them at the same time, right? You know? It's like you go for a reading with the Orishas, and they're going to, you know, realign your vertebrae, and be like this is where you should be and then you're going to leave, and all those wonky muscles and your habits are going to want to pull you back out of place, right? And whether that's energetic, or your circumstance, or your psychology, or whatever, right? Or the various baggage you're carrying with you? That's all that energy that wants to kind of disalign you again, right? TY: Right. And I think that's one of the major critiques I've had, like if anybody has seen my Facebook videos, I've done a lot of critiquing about what I think is healthy versus what I don't think is healthy, right? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: And in that sort of process, not understanding energy has led this new generation of people that are kind of coming into the tradition with a level of ... how would I say, like a lack of respect for tradition? And in that process, they stereotype and pigeonhole certain energies because there's a fundamental misunderstanding of energy. So, like for example, I see this wave of new women coming into sacred sexuality, and not everyone's a child of Ochún. Because they think, okay, Ochún, sacred whore, sacred prostitute, no idea where that comes from, but this is what they say, and this is what they think, right? When it's like, Ochún, first of all, it's a stereotyping of this energy, because you don't even understand what you're talking about, it's a pigeonholing and it's a limiting of her, because depending on the road, you might be dealing with the crone, you might be dealing with the witch, you might be dealing with the demure healer, you might be dealing with something like Ochún Ibu Kwanda, the warrior. Who ain't got nothing to do with your coquette. [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah, for sure, right? TY: When people don't understand energy, when we don't understand how things work, and we stereotype, and we pigeonhole, we do everybody a disservice ... ANDREW: Yeah. TY: We don't, we don't get access to the thing, you know, that's really going to ... ANDREW: Yeah, I think that, I think it's challenging, because there's such a profound and sort of largely ... If you're outside of the tradition, largely inaccessible depth and diversity that's there, right? TY: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: You know, how many roads of Ochún are there? How many roads of ... you know? You know, this, that, and all those other spirits, right? TY: Right. ANDREW: And what do those things mean, right? TY: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And what do ... and what if you're dealing with, I mean, you know, if you're dealing with those, or running into those, or if those are the paths or avatars that are sort of engaging with you, it's completely different to have one versus the other, right? TY: Yeah, right. ANDREW: There's the Yemaya who pulls you down to the bottom of the ocean, right? TY: Yep. ANDREW: And leaves you there! TY: And leave y'all! ANDREW: Right. And then there's those other paths that are going to love you and hold you while you cry and pat your back, right? TY: Oh, there's this my path, Achaba, who's just the shady one, who don't want to ... ANDREW: Yeah. Right? TY: You know. There's koha ibun shade .... ANDREW: [laughs] TY: But I love her, I love her. But that's why, like in my work ... Okay, I had become a palera , I became a iyalosha, I became a mom, though I became a iyanifa, and then I was like, well, why do I want to do any of this? What does this mean to me? What does priesting look like for me? ANDREW: Sure. TY: Do I ... Am I going to be able to do it in the way maybe my elders did it? Do I believe in the same things? What is this priesthood thing going to actually play out for me? And I found that in ... And I'm a young santera, you know what I'm saying, so, I mean, I'm 5 in Ocha this year -- no, I'm six. Am I six already? Shit! But anyway. ANDREW: It's really stacking up, right? [laughter] TY: You know, so I'm a baby olosha. Infant. And, in the process of me coming into adulthood as a nealOrisha, growing up and kind of going through adolescence, now, I have to ... I decided to consciously ... consciously move into priesthood. What is this priesthood thing going to look like for me? Where is going to be my medicine? What's going to be my point of departure? And that has always been whole person healing. What am I dealing with? What is Yamaya bringing to my doorstep? And yes, I can solve this with ebbó, but after ebbó, what is going to -- and that creates transformation -- but what's going to last? What's going to stick? What's going to change behavior? You know? And that's when I decided to go ... that my route was really as a healer ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: Getting into the spiritual development of the person, and then when I was trying to figure out well what healing would look like, outside of energy healing and spiritual cleanings and stuff, what I found is, that what people were lacking was the counsel and a way to really work through trauma, particularly trauma held within the body, of a sexual nature. And our tradition was no exception to that. So, it spoke to me of just the niche, that made sense, that I could kind of slide on into, you know? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: So right now, it sounds like priesting for me is looking like being really woman/Goddess-centered, really witchy, and really focused on long-lasting transformation. ANDREW: Mmm. TY: In or outside of an igbodú or a new set of elekes, or the reception of a new Orisha. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: [laughs] You know what I'm saying? ANDREW: For sure, because so many, you know, I'm also a relatively young olocha, you know, but lots of people who come around for that part of what I do, they, so many of them almost show up with their shopping list, right? They're like, I'm coming to you, I want you to give me my elekes, please confirm that I'm a child of whomever, you know? And like, and so on, and it's like ... I don't know. Like, you know, let's see what happens, right? Whereas, when people come to me in my sort of card reading and you know, that other magical side of my life ... A lot of those things are more like what I think that all of it should be, which is, let's see what's going on, let's talk about what you need, let's work on this, and make that change so that it endures, right? TY: Right. ANDREW: Because it's so easy to, you know, when I made Ocha, Shango basically said to me, it was like, "Hey, welcome, you're here, so go fix your life, cause you've got some things that are messy that you made, and now you gotta go fix em cause Ocha can't do it," and I was like, "All right. Huh. That's not what I was hoping!" [laughs] TY: Right? ANDREW: You know? TY: Shango has a way of just popping that bubble. He kind of gave me something similar, in my Ita, Shango, he came down talking bout "You do not know how to live, and now you need to learn how to live. Learn how to live in this life, or you'll learn how to live in the other," we hear that refrain. You know? ANDREW: Yeah. TY: And I think I had a similar trajectory, like, I love teaching, you know, cards, crystals, all the airy fairy witchy stuff, because even though I had extensively studied African tradition, I studied traditional forms of witchcraft as well. I was a proper neoPlatonist high ceremonial magic type of witch [laughs] for a ... ANDREW: Yeah. TY: [[00:19:10] astrological magic, like, I came from Bea too, so ain't nobody going to get me to leave my cards behind, and none of that, but ... And I felt like there was space for that. Like there were, you know ... And spiritualism gives you that opportunity, right? To bring in anything you want? But, people would come with their shopping list, well I want this, I want to be crowned tomorrow, I need you to take me to Haiti, and then after that take me to Africa, and I want this and I want that, and usually my attitude is like, that's cute, that's what you want, you know, good for you, you are clear on your desires ... ANDREW: Yeah. TY: Which is ... [laughs] What do you actually need? Now that we've gotten through your laundry list, what's actually getting ready to happen here? ANDREW: Yeah. TY: Cause guess what, I don't move, unless Yamaya tells me this is what has to happen. ANDREW: Oh yeah. For sure. TY: [laughing] ANDREW: That piece of ... I don't know what the right word for it is ... understanding ... that the Orishas that sits on our heads, you know, and live with us, that nothing happens without their say so. Something so largely foreign to most people's concepts, right? You know? TY: Yeah. ANDREW: Like I remember, many years ago, I got this reading, and Aleyo was like, "No tattoos for you this year," and I was like, "huh, all right, fair enough, I'll stop," right? I had a bunch of stuff planned and I stopped. And a lot of people couldn't understand how I could be just like, "okay"? Like what if he never says yes again? And I was like, "Well, that's cool, I'll roll with that." But that's so hard for people to roll with, right? You know and because ... I think in part because we're encouraged to be ego-centered in a way that is hard to wrestle with ... TY: Yes. ANDREW: But also because of all these traumas that we've been talking about, right? TY: Yes. ANDREW: How much harder is it for someone to put that kind of trust in somebody, if they have, you know, whatever kinds of traumatic experiences and abuses from people who should be ... who were supposed to be there facilitating them? Parents, priests, guides, whoever, right? TY: You know, I agree with that, because it's about several things. It's about shifting from a very Western individualist self-absorbed ego-centric way of being and moving through the world, which I'm not even judging, because those are actual tools we need to survive in the West. ANDREW: Sure. TY: [laughs] Okay? A certain amount of selfishness is necessary for your survival in this place. However, it does create a learning gap. Because you kind of have to cross that bridge to understand how everything functions in this particular tradition. And the unique thing about this tradition is that it's not just all this ... I think we also get really idealistic and we think that we have all these proper African values, and we don't. We have diaspora values, because if you rob them [22:09?] of cultural nuances they don't recognize in Africa. They're not doing that. And we have to separate the caricature of Africa that we have, this ideal ... this, you know, ideal, you know, Africa that doesn't exist. What we're dealing with is post-colonial Africa, that has just as much white supremacist misanthropic bullshit as any one of us. ANDREW: Yeah. Well and also, you know, which part of Africa are we talking about, right? You know? Are we talking about ... TY: Thank you! Thank you! ANDREW: Are we talking about, you know, Ifé, are we talking about the Congo, are we talking about wherever, like, you know, I mean ... TY: Right. Right. ANDREW: I know people come in and they're like "well, you know, I was talking to a Sengoma, and that's exactly like what you do," and I'm like, "No, not really," like, in a general way it's animist and whatever, but other than that, no, it's not the same at all, right? TY: Right. And that's a problem. they think of Africa as a monolith, as one like homogenous sort of thing. They don't understand the level of nuance. And this is why I've always battled these faulty notions and assertions of purity in this tradition and who's more pure, who has the right way, who's the closest to the root? And it's like, nobody, because what is properly African is that we've always assimilated, and brought in what works, and transformed and adapted. And if you go to Nigeria right now, what they're doing in Ejife, is not what they're doing in Oyo, is not what they're doing in Abayokuda, is not what they're doing in Oshopo. They're all doing something different! Compound to compound, region to region! Because there's always been sort of that gap to allow for spirit, to allow for adaptability, that's how we learn. ANDREW: Well, and I think that that's the power of lineage, right? You know? TY: Sure. ANDREW: Like, what you're going to do, you can't do anything ... TY: Yeah. ANDREW: But you can do anything that fits within the bounds of your lineage, right? TY: Exactly. ANDREW: And that's the real meaning of, like, oh, in my house we do this, it's like, you know, lots of people use that as a justification for what they don't know or to just do whatever they feel like, or be like, oh, I can't get that, so you know in my house now, now we give turkeys instead of chickens, cause they're easier to get, or whatever, right? And it's not ... that's not valid, right? What's valid is understanding what's going on within your lineage, and then honoring and working with that, because that is something, those are the spirits that we're calling on to work, right? You know, in one way or another. TY: I've always been a bit of a lineage snob. Particularly in this day and age where people feel that they can self-initiate and they can get their head marked via tarot, and they can get initiated online, this, because, the thing about lineage, right, when I ... I try to explain this to new people, it's like if you're a Christian it doesn't mean that you all believe the same thing, you might be a 7th Day Adventist, you might be a Baptist, there are denominations here. And I feel that we've gotten to the point in our traditions where we have denominations, okay? And within each denomination, lineage becomes important because that's going to imply style, technique, and approach. Okay? We may all believe certain things, but how it plays out, how it looks in ritual, our approach to ritual, technique, that's going to be based on lineage. I think Palo is a great example of that. When you tell me the ramen, you tell me the house, now I know what kind of Palo you do. Because that's what lineage dictates. What types of agreements do you have with the forces you have the ability to access and conjure, and what do your ceremonies look like? Because everything outside of ceremony, ritual, and the protocols associated with them, that's what we dictate and what we have a blueprint for. Everything outside of that is between you and your spirit. You got to work that out! And that's why lineage gives you the blueprint, right, for how ritual, what makes you a certain thing, what makes another thing a thing, then outside of that, that's all you, boo! ANDREW: Yeah, for sure, right? ANDREW: It's all about getting to know what your particular Orishas like and want, right, you know? I mean, cause people always want to do big ceremonies, and more often than not, you know, if I cook a little amala ila for Shango, he's gonna eat up and get whatever I want, right? You know? Like, it's easy, once you sit and listen. Once you understand and build that connection. But, you know, but that quest for purity or truth or like, the solution, you know, it's not always bigger and better things, it's learn to work what you have, right? And then apply that and then you can go from there. TY: And insofar as learning to work what you have is concerned, I think that's another challenge, because one of the main critiques I sort of have of our traditions right now is that I don't think people are practicing African tradition or African-inspired tradition. I feel like they're Christians in elekes. Because they kind of bring all their Christianity and dress it up in nice African fabric and put beads on it, but it's still Christianity. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: And I find that that is especially true with how we understand and approach Orisha. Sometimes our relationship and approach to Orisha is devotional, and sometimes it's not. I'm not always on my knees begging like I'm praying to the Lord, sometimes I'm sending Orisha on a mission, and I think people have forgotten that, and I see that that disconnect comes in mostly since the African American involvement in Orisha tradition. The reason why I say that is because [00:27:56--garbled] coming up with these older Cubans, Puerto Ricans ... I have seen them be like hiding drugs in Ocha, or getting a custom Elegua out cause they want some shit to go down or they busting somebody outta jail, it wasn't this elitist thing, and it wasn't so ... the level of Christianized judgement, and this just pray to Orisha and give agomu, I don't work with Uheria, that's very different, because we have songs, we have liturgy that calls us powerful sorcerers and sorceresses, and how we work with Orisha. I think that we have to reexamine what our relationship is. Is it this Christianized devotion? Or sometimes do you work with Orisha like any other sorcerer in any other tradition? And what are these ideas that we're bringing in that are foreign and counter-productive? Because if you are just purely devotional, right? and you just throw in so that you can appease Orisha and get on your knees, do you really know what that Orisha likes and how it could work for you or how you could get up and make something pop when you need it? Do you really know that? Or do you know how to appease Jesus on Sunday and beg? And does that make you a priest? Or does that make you a slave to some spirit? And you call it Ocha? ANDREW: Mmm. Well. I had the, I think, good fortune, it's one of the best gifts that I think my parents gave me, which was to not be raised with anything. So, religion was nonexistent in my household. Which, you know, I think was tremendously liberating compared to where a lot of people come from when they come into these things, right? And I think that this question of what is, what does it mean to exist with a magical religion, right? TY: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Is something that is quite different than what a lot of people expect or understand, right? And it's neither as simple, at least in my experience, as "Hey, dude, I was sitting on the couch playing video games all month and I need some like money for rent, hook me up," right? TY: Right. ANDREW: That doesn't necessarily work either, right? I mean, maybe? Maybe the first time, maybe sometimes. Or you know, “bust me out of jail,” or whatever ... TY: Of course, there's spontaneity. Right. ANDREW: But it's also not. TY: Yeah. ANDREW: Not that either, right? You know? And sort of this distinction between the things that we want and need to live in this world and live in this life, right? TY: Uh huh. ANDREW: I mean, they are there to facilitate those things. TY: Right. ANDREW: And -- TY: I think it -- ANDREW: Go ahead. TY: No, no, I'm sorry, go ahead. ANDREW: Well, I was going to say, and, they are there cause they can see how we can free ourselves from the problems we make for ourselves, or the problems other people bring, and sort of move beyond them, or move and minimize them as we go through life, right? Because ... TY: Yes. ANDREW: You know, life is complicated, right? TY: It's the battle of the Osobos and the Iré, right? All these forces of negativity that exist in the world on many levels ... ANDREW: Right. ANDREW: And some of those come from us, too, right? And learning to overcome those ones that are ... Not in a "we're all sinners" kind of way, like we've all got baggage, we've all got tendencies, maybe we're lazy, maybe we're too greedy, maybe we're hateful or whatever, and those things undermine our lives, and we need to ... you know, it's that balance of both, I think, right. TY: Right. ANDREW: Cause literally people come into the shop and "I need you to Santeria somebody," and I'm like, "whatever, “Dude, I don't even know what you mean, but no." Like, forget it? You know? yeah. TY: I see -- I mean, I see your point. I guess what -- not I guess -- one of the things I'm resistant to is elitism in this tradition. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: Because it has become elitist on a number of levels just because of the price point, the introduction of just the academia, you know, into this? So, there's also an intellectual elitism here ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: And with that elitism, there's been sort of this political attempt to Christianize in terms of its values, and what we do, we don't do that, and it's like, um, but we do! Because I remember very distinctly being called for those basement ochas that we had to do in an emergency cause somebody was going to jail, or, you know, [laughs] somebody has some illness, and it was a bunch of poor people in that ocha in a project apartment saving somebody's life. I remember when it wasn't elitist. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: You know? And there wasn't any shame around doing an obra versus an ebbó. And how I'm distinguishing those terms, when I say an obra, a work, something that you don't throw for, that you go, you put it together, and you tell Orisha, versus ebbó that comes out of a divination and Orisha done told you! ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: I remember that, there being a distinction and watching santeros move in that way. I remember that there wasn't the stigma and the shame around, yo, maybe I do need to come up with my rent cause I'm getting put out of my house and I need to go to Elegua to open a door. ANDREW: Yeah. TY: I remember because there was no stigma around that. ANDREW: Well and, I hope I didn't come across wrong, because I think there should be no shame. Right? We are all where we're at, and we're all in places and life is complex and variable and many things happen, right? TY: Right. ANDREW: And, you know? There are those times when we need to make those things, or to, you know, kick 'em in the pants a little bit and be like, "Elegua, dude, rent's due on the first, it better be in my account before that, my friend, it needs to happen, or we're all in on the street," right? or whatever, and I think there should never be any shame in any of that or in needing healing or, you know. I mean, all of those things, I think that we're all human and we all need those things all the time and we'd be foolish to think that that's not going to be the case, right? But I also do agree that there's a tendency to try and niceify, right? You know? TY: Yep. You say it even more in Nigeria. You see it even more in the Nigerian priests, with this attempt at, you know, Christianizing Ifa because of the onslaught of just attack from Muslim- and Christian-kind in Nigeria. ANDREW: Sure. Right? And you know, and it's ... you see it in a lot of, you know, more fringe places, right, you see it in the LGBT community, right, and all those extra letters too, where, it's like, well, look, we're just like you, we're this way, we're that way, and that's true for some people, and for other people it's not, right? And I think that those kinds of diversity ... it doesn't benefit anybody either to leverage one group down so that we could sort of be up, right? You know in the way that like, historically Palo and Lucumí traditions went through that conflict, right? You know, there's the historical divide, right? TY: Well, still. ANDREW: Well still, but like, you know, there were specific historical events where, you know it was like all of a sudden, well, you know, we'll throw the Palo community under the bus for this ... TY: Yeah. ANDREW: And show how legitimate and good we are, right? TY: And they're still doing it. I was very resistant to making Ocha for a lot of years, because I was palera for a long time before I became an olosha. ANDREW: Yeah. TY: And one of the things that I've [35:39--inaudible]... that I was really resistant about, was what I call Lucumí-, or Yoruba-centric [distortion/inaudible at 00:35:51]. You know, Yorubas tend to posit themselves at the top of this whole priest -- overstep their boundaries, an Orisha priest telling you, you have abatowa crown, get rid of your nganga. How? Why is it you feel that your tradition gives you the right to tell somebody what can and can't happen in a completely separate practice? Okay? And that's your eccentric elitism. That's Lucumí-centric elitism. And we see it because Lucumí is the most expensive initiation, that people feel like once they get crowned they've arrived, honey, they got the big crown ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: And it perpetuates this contention. It also perpetuates a lot of misinformation. Like Cholla is not Ochún. She will never be Ochún. Saramanda is not Ogun. Nusera is not Elegua. [laughs] You understand what I'm saying? ANDREW: Yeah. Well and I think it's part of that desire or ignorance that promotes generalization, right? You know? TY: Yes. ANDREW: I mean, it's not 100% true, but I often sort of think, if there's an odu that says you shouldn't do that, then that means there's not a general prohibition against it because it's required to come up, right? And I mean, it's a little too cut and dry maybe, but I think there are so many things where people want to sort of posit a set of rules, like obatala should never drink, you know? TY: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: These people are going to be this way, this spirit's going to be that way, once you're a priest you should never do whatever again, and it's not that way, you know? It doesn't need to be that way. TY: Right. ANDREW: And that is that sort of stereotyping and you know, sort of modeling ideas that are not universal ... TY: Yes. ANDREW: But people want to make them, either because it gives them power, or cause they don't know better, right? TY: Yes. And in some cases, it's just superstitious and unnecessary. Like, I'll give you an example. I went to an Orisha birthday, to go see someone's Orisha, and you know in the process of ocha birthdays, we're sitting, we're gossip, we're talking shit. We get into a conversation about firearms, right? Because I don't go nowhere unarmed, okay? I'm a black woman living in the USA. I'm going to be ... if you see me, you're going to see ... ANDREW: I've seen your Instagram! TY: [laughs] You know, so ... we were talking about firearms, and there was a priest that was much older than me, I feel like she was in her 20s, and she was like, well you know, none of us carry weapons, we've all blunted all of the knives in our house because many of us have ogun [garbled at 00:38:38] in our Ita, and we give that over to Ogun. And I was like Er? What the hell does that have to do with your ability to protect yourself? Number one, did ogunda come in some harsh osogbo that told you to deal with the entire house, and what does any of that have to do with my basic human right to defend myself? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: And then her response was, you know, well [inaudible--some missing audio? at 00:39:07] Ogun, I'm not going to take on Ogun's job, but I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell you, there's nothing he could have ever told me in Ita that would have had me unarmed for the rest of my life, not as a single mother, hell no. There is nothing you could have told ME that would have made me put down my firearms. And there was nothing that I heard her say out of her Ita that made any of that make sense to me. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: That sounded crazy. But I hear this level of superstitious ignorance that manifests in general taboos for entire houses, all the time. Now suddenly one person's Ita is everybody's Ita. It's crazy! ANDREW: Sure. Well and I see -- I've seen that prohibition with that piece of advice come out in a reading for somebody, and it didn't surprise me, cause that relationship in that house was on the edge of exploding into physical conflict maybe, right? TY: Right. ANDREW: And so, like there are times when that stuff can come out and should come out, but that's where you gotta look at your life and see what's going on, right? Like I -- Somebody came to me for a reading and you know, it was one of those like, hey, the Orishas love you, hugs and kisses, see you later, right? And it was like, okay, when should I get initiated? And I was like, why? TY: Cause you're not about that. Right. ANDREW: “Are you sick? Are you broke? Are you ... like, what's going on?” And they're like, “No.” I'm like, "You're good, you don't need it, don't worry about it." You know? So, I think that that, yeah, it's where you need to be understanding about yourself and your relationship, right? TY: Yes, yes, and move beyond superstition. I think that we have a very sophisticated methodology and system of divination that doesn't give us ... we don't have the burden of having to have superstition. Or even faith, to a certain extent. We do divination, we do ebbó, ebbó works. [laughs] We trust that it works because we've seen in work. You know? We have divination and confirmation. ANDREW: Sure. TY: Which is one of the reasons why I like this tradition. Cause I ain't got to be believing in no pie in the sky! You do divination, you do the ebbó! [laughs] ANDREW: As Crowley puts it, right? TY: Right, right! ANDREW: As Crowley puts it in one of his books, success is your proof, right? That's it. Certainty, not faith, right? TY: Ase, and I've never done well with faith. Which is why Palo and Vodou make me happy, you do something, something happens. ANDREW: Right. TY: [laughs] You know? So. It's all of that, all of it. ANDREW: So, I have a question for you about the intimacy counseling and the work that you're doing with people, right? So, is that a energetic thing? Is that a spiritual practice? Is that like -- Where do the intersection ... Cause I'm always curious with people who practice a bunch of different things and then have outside people come and engage that, right? TY: Yeah. ANDREW: Are you engaging people within their own practices? Are they coming to you for practices? How does that look and work for you? TY: So, usually, it depends. People who have no relation to this practice but just need sex and intimacy coaching usually look like regular old clients. They book an appointment, we have some talk therapy, and then I do a healing. That healing may be energetic, like in tantric projection work or energy work that they need to clear out some trauma. It may be a past life regression or some spiritual cord that I have to cut cause of what they're dealing with. It may be physical, because as a somatic sex educator, we also guide people through certain body practices, so for example, if I have a person who is ashamed of their body as a result of trauma, has never masturbated. I might do guided coached masturbation, or I might have a couple who want to reinvigorate their sex life and they want to learn new techniques, so I'll guide them through it. So that's where the body-based therapy might come in. Someone in the tradition, it will probably start with some type of spiritual reading and see what's happening with you spiritually and then how that plays out in your life in the form of coaching. And the sex tends to be, especially in the tradition, talk therapy only. It comes out in my spiritual counseling, so like for example, I might do a divination, and let's say I see a lot of odí falling, and I know that there might be some addiction stuff, or some sexual trauma, some abuse, some other things, that that letter would point to. Well, I'll do the ebbó, I'll get that out of the way, but then after that I'm going to book a spiritual counseling session, and let's talk about what made that manifest on that, and what really needs to happen with you energetically and spiritually and hold space for that. And sometimes that is talk therapy around their sexual trauma, because of course, that letter fell and that oftentimes points to rape or molestation or all kinds of stuff, right? ANDREW: Sure. TY: In addition to that, as a tantrica, when I lead workshops with people, mostly single women or couples, they're looking to bring the sacred into their bedroom in a certain way. In terms of my tantra training, I came through, I'm an initiated tantric, I was initiated in the Shri Vidya lineage, a Debi Kudarum, very goddess-centered, and to me, it ain't nothing but some Indian Palo honey, I don't know, cause you know, they with them goddesses, they put out them yantras, honey and you get to chant and then that thing MOVES, okay, but in addition to Shri Vidya tantra, I studied Ipsaun tantra, Shakti pat, I received several activations, and I am now studying grand trine active shamanistic tantra. So, I will teach them how to do tantric projection, like no hands, no touch, energy orgasms, healing the body and the trauma energetically, and even just tantric lovemaking, tantric interaction. And I've found that people in this tradition, even though the two don't overlap, they are very interested in it, because again, we don't have a space to have these conversations. We don't have a way of talking about how we can relate in a spiritual manner [laughs] that, you know. ANDREW: Well, we're all human beings, right? We want to ultimately, I think, one of our desires, for almost everybody, is to want to show up on every level for the sexy times, right, you know? Cause once you understand or experience other levels of awareness ... TY: Right. ANDREW: You know? You want to bring that everywhere, right? But as you say, it's not really a ... there's not really a mechanism for that. TY: Right, right. I mean but the thing is I feel that we do, we do have our concept of sacred relationship because for, in my opinion, when the awo, and his apedibi, Soday, and marry, that's our sacred relationship, when the Ialosha and the Babalosha marry. They ... that's our sacred relationship, because now you have the bringing together of these two powerful entities that can birth something. Now what's going to change it is the context, the intention, the consciousness, and what you're going to put forth in it. But the fact that it exists ... I think is ... I think if it didn't exist there would be no need for the Babala to have an Apedibi, to have that feminine counterpart to the masculine, you know? To bring about that balance and uplift his Ifa. [laughs] You know what I'm saying? So, we definitely have it, but do we understand what we have? Do we not articulate it? And then what does it mean? So, you know, doubling back to your initial question, your average person looks like talk therapy and then whatever body-based somatic therapy they may need according to their issue. The average person in this tradition, I kind of keep separate, and it stays on like a counseling, I have to counsel them one on one, because a), having the conversation itself is damn near taboo, as conservative as we are, and b) you can't bring that into ritual, you've got to do ritual first and then have a separate conversation about that. ANDREW: For sure. Yeah. Mmmhmm. I've got to say I dig how you're navigating all that. TY: [laughs] Yeah. ANDREW: So, I've got one more question for you before we wrap up. TY: Uh huh. ANDREW: So, how do you sustain all these traditions you're doing? I get a little tired just hearing about it! [laughs] TY: On a schedule. [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah! TY: Well, I work for myself, so I wake up, usually I have sunrise meditation and yoga, and then I tend to my ancestors and whatever loa might be that day, so Tuesdays I'm on my Petro, and you know, whatever, Thursdays I'm on my rada, and then I go ahead and reap my Orisha, my ifa, and I keep it moving. At night, I normally deal with my prendas ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: And I try to keep my workings to them around what's going on in the sky, and I mostly work that outside and at night. And you know, loa gives you a schedule, cause loa has to be served every day, and you know, it's certain people that you serve on certain days. Orisha, all they need daily is to breathe, pour libations and keep it moving, you know? I might throw to my Orisha, you know, my head Orisha once a month, Elegba, maybe once a week, appease him, you know, my little Sundays or Mondays, I keep it moving! You know, they, it's just ... it's such a part of my lifestyle, it's I wake up, yoga, meditation, greet Luwan, have your day, come back, say hello to the Palo people, go to bed. You got ebbó to do, do your work. ANDREW: Yeah. TY: [laughs] ANDREW: I love it. I mean I think it's one of those things, right? So many people ... I hear many people who kind of say that they want to live that kind of life, right? You know, that that's what they're looking for. TY: You gotta be built for that life. ANDREW: Yeah. [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah, cause you know, I mean, it's one of those things, right? I mean, you know, I mostly just, I mean I work with my, you know, my spirit guides and my Orisha, right? But like, it takes up a chunk of time and energy and it takes a real consistency of focus that I think that is challenging, you know? I know that I certainly when I was starting out struggled with it. And that sort of scheduling it, and just being like these are the ways that things happen, that's it, right? TY: Yeah. That's it! ANDREW: The obligation needs to be sustained, right? TY: Yeah, and I think because I didn't do it back to back. Like I had years in between each so I kind of was able to get acclimated, develop a routine, before something else came in, you know? And they're separate, I keep them separate, like they each have their own room, their own space, all of that. But they function in similar ways. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: You know what I'm saying? They function in similar ways. ANDREW: Yeah. TY: So, every day if I get up and I greet my ancestors, that's gonna be a new tradition. And today, you know, I might have to blow some rum [inaudible at 00:50:04] You know what I mean? So, I mean it's not as far in or as complicated as some people make it sound. ANDREW: [inaudible--asking to repeat] TY: I said it's not as far in or complicated as some people make it sound. Even if you were just the palero, right? You're not sitting with your nganga for hours every day! You're not doing that! ANDREW: No. TY: Or most, you get up, you greet, you light 'em up and you keep it moving, unless you got something to do! ANDREW: Yeah. TY: That doesn't change, cause you got other things. ANDREW: That's true. And they've got other places to be too, right? TY: Right! ANDREW: Like they're not sitting 24 hours a day waiting for everyone. “Oh my god, I'm not bringing the tv down here, you know, we're not watching our shows together, I'm getting sad about this,” that doesn't happen, yeah. TY: They should be out there fixing the problems in my life, not sitting here! [laughs] ANDREW: Mmmhmm. For sure. That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for making time today, Ty. TY: Yep. ANDREW: People want to come and find you online, where's the best place to come and hang with you? TY: http://www.iamtyshaw.com. ANDREW: Beautiful! Go check it out! TY: Yes. ANDREW: All right. Well, thank you. TY: Yes, thank you! We'll talk soon. All right, bye.

This week I'm joined by the wonderful Dr. Al Cummins. We chat about his beginnings in spirit work, what led him to the saints, and we also get into his Geomancy work.  Connect with Al through his website and be sure to check out his awesome tumblr as well. We are also proud to carry his new book A Book of The Magi and Cypriana: Old World which he is featured in.  If you are interested in supporting this podcast though our Patreon you can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Thanks for listening! If you dig this please subscribe and share with those who would like it. Andrew   If you are interested in booking time with Andrew either in Toronto or by phone or Skype from anywhere click here.   Trascription   ANDREW: So, welcome to another episode of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. Today, I am on the line with Al Cummins, and I've been following Al's work for some while now. I've been looking at his look at geomancy, and I've been following some of his work on saints and other things, as well as a bunch of collaborative projects that he's done with people who I hope will certainly be future guests of the show as well. So, but, in case people are just coming to this discussion and don't know who you are, Al, why don't you give us a quick introduction? AL: Sure, sure. Hello! Well, firstly, thank you for having me on; it's great to get to finally chat to you. ANDREW: Yeah, my pleasure! AL: My background is kind of one of those dual forking pincer movement things of academic training in the history of magic, which I did through the University of Leeds, and then did my doctorate at the University of Bristol and Professor Ronald Hutton about early modern British magic primarily, but some wider European influences as well. It's inevitable when you're talking about Renaissance magic that you're going to bring in, you know, the big guns of Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa and things like that, so obviously there's a Continental influence going on there. And my other, you know, the other prong of that two-forked pincer movement, is I've been a practitioner and a diviner and a consultant sorcerer for a number of years and I love the interplay of the two, as I'm sure many of your listeners do as well. That false dichotomy that is often set up between those that just study and those that just do, and I've never met a serious magician who wasn't also someone who had made a real effort to learn about his or her field and be up on the current academic research. Likewise, in academic conferences, it's often, after a couple drinks, you know, people are a lot more … looser and willing to talk about what they've actually tried and things like that. And so, I like existing in that kind of gray place between being both a practitioner and a scholar of this stuff. ANDREW: I think that that … I mean, it's kind of one of the … I mean, maybe it's been a plague of every era, but I feel like it's especially a plague of the modern era, or the time in which we find ourselves. AL: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: This sort of duality or multiplicity between things, you know? AL: Mmm. ANDREW: I remember trying, I periodically go through these sort of journeys [static 00:02:36 through [00:02:44] when I talk about how I talk about that. A sort of bridge of divination, philosophy, psychology, you know, and magic, you know? AL: Right! ANDREW: To me, they're indistinguishable from each other when we look at them as a whole. And we can draw lines in different places, and that can be functional, but to me, there's no division between doing a piece of magic and talking about somebody's psychology or thinking about somebody's psychology as it's involved. You know? AL: They certainly don't have to be mutually exclusive. And one of the things I like to riff on when we're talking about … I was asked recently to talk … whether I subscribed more to a spirit model or a psychological model, and I kind of did that classic attack the question thing of refusing to ally with one or the other, based off the fact that, you know, psychology, psychiatry, these are both, as far as I'm aware, 15th century French terms. It is not anachronistic for us to look at the magic of the 16th and 17th centuries as being something that combined an understanding that there were spirits and there was also pyschology, and that someone who was mentally unwell in some way, or had an impairment of mental or cognitive or emotional faculties, might also attract spirits who might haunt them. Likewise, the Devil could work through, if you read these heresyographies, could work through the agency of madness, and induce it. And so, rather than producing this very simple set of straw men of either at all in your head, or at all the actions of spirits, or energy, or however you want to frame your model of quote unquote objective magic. Big heavy scare quote fingers there! [laughs] You are inevitably bringing in an aspect of both, so one of the most famous spiritual physicians, kind of a cunning man, certainly an astrologer physician, an angel summoner, and magician, Dr. Richard Napier of the mid-17th century, who was regarded as an expert in the impairments of mental faculties, people came from a long way away to work out whether ... you know … would ask him to work out whether or not the patient was possessed, haunted, under the influence of witchcraft, or the ministrations of the Devil himself, or was physically unwell, producing brain disease symptoms, or was mentally unwell after dealing with a trauma of some kind, or any combination of those factors, right? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AL: These were not mutually exclusive things. And in fact, you know, often if you were suffering from one, you would probably start to develop the symptoms, at least, if not the underlying pathologies of the others as well. And so, one of the ways Richard Napier worked around this was divination through both astrology and geomancy, and also through summoning the Archangel Raphael, who he seems to have had a very very close relationship with, and ... [laughs] Such a close relationship! On the one hand, people like William Lily, one of the most famous astrologers of the 17th century and John Aubrey, who was a sort of Fortean of his time, helped repopularize Stonehenge and things like that—both of them visited Napier relatively frequently, apparently, or at least several times, and remarked that he would go and had an angel closet of some kind, which was not an uncommon way of these practitioners to do their thing, apparently, and would, you know, stand there and invoke angels for an hour or two, and then go and do his consultations. But the thing I like pointing out about Napier is that such was his close relationship with the Archangel Raphael that he would call up the medicine of God to do these kind of consults for him or these referrals, and frequently disagree with the angel's diagnosis! [laughing] Which I love! This is not someone who is an iconoclast, he's not doing this to like, you know, raise a middle finger to God or anything. He was regarded as an incredibly pious practitioner, but I think that's an interesting set of relationships in terms of how to navigate a spirit and psychological model and also use spirits to investigate that and to not necessarily believe everything of the signal that you are given, right? Or everything of the noise that you are given? To be able to discern which parts of that seem more sensible than others. ANDREW: Well, I think that, I mean there are a couple ... There's a bunch of things now that you say that are really interesting. But let's talk about the first one first, which is, I think that it's something that is unfortunate, and it doesn't seem very common these days, is this sort of capacity to differentiate or understand the distinction between what might be spirit … purely spirit ... I mean, as you say, it's a muddle, right? AL: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: But what parts of it, or in what ways might we be able to discern, is this a spirit-caused situation? Is this a psychiatric-caused, you know ... or all these other models that you talked about? You know? And it's one of those things where, I remember working with clients and sort of receiving instructions from the spirits that I work with about how to interpret what I see as their energy ... AL: Mmm. ANDREW: ... in ways that point between these different pieces, right? AL: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: ... who have this certain kind of energy pattern ... You know, they would more often than not have these more psychiatric issues or so on ... AL: Yeah. ANDREW: ... unless [laughs], unless, they were like super hard core meditators and really really evolved ... AL: Hmm. ANDREW: ... at which point those patterns would kind of merge, you know, which was always very interesting to me, you know? AL: That's fascinating. ANDREW: There might be ways in which people had, you know, like, people talk about premature kundalini awakenings or, you know, other kinds of things, that there are these states that might be helpful later on ... AL: Hmm. ANDREW: But which, when they emerge unbidden or they emerge alongside other kind of things just cause tremendous problems, you know? AL: Right. And that's interesting from a perspective of a consultant and a diviner for someone, and for clients, especially, where, you know, you have identified the pattern of energies at work, it's now, often, I find, your job to find a way that that's useful, right? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AL: Which I think is ... you know … sometimes, the useful thing is to say, that would be a decision that would end in rack and ruin, it doesn't look like it's going to help you, right? Or, it's ... I mean, I read with geomancy very often for clients, so—I primarily read playing cards and geomancy these days, and there are figures that can fall that portray danger, deceit, the potential for addictive behaviors, and a variety of other overly impassioned vice kind of like problems. And it's … the figure is Rubeus, and refers to the spilling of blood. It's considered bad for all things except that which requires bloodshed. Now, that means from a medieval/early modern perspective, it was good for phlebotomy, and it could occasionally be useful for voiding ill humors through that bloodletting stuff, and there are kind of some equivalencies that you can find, like nowadays, other kinds of … it can recommend going to see your doctor, that kind of thing. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AL: But finding a way for Rubeus to do something useful in a chart ... if it's spilling something, you know, I have before now found myself having to take a bottle of red wine to a crossroads and upend that, as a means of, like, placating a spirit or working through a set of very martial energies and workings, for that to be useful. That set of virtues, that pattern was present once the divination confirmed it, and especially with the attendant spirit contact around it, it was also bringing that thing in, right? And so, finding a way that that's useful in some way, to be either the thing that is subject to it or the thing that is enacting it in the world, finding a way for that violence, in this case, to be useful in some way, to break an old pattern or to stand up to someone or any number of those other things. ANDREW: So, when people come to you for a geomancy reading, are they people who are going about their lives and are just inclined towards divination? Or do you find that it's people who are sort of inclined towards more, I don't know, for lack of a better word, sort of esoteric or kind of occult and philosophical kind of approaches to life already? AL: Yeah, I wonder that myself sometimes. I think a materialist overculture, if I can, you know, briefly jump on a soapbox, produces a statistical slide towards people who are already aware of magic and, you know, think it's worth paying a professional to divine for them. So, often there's someone with some kind of practice or some kind of set of beliefs, or even just, you know, have witnessed things happened or have had experiences that lead them to suggest that there's something valid for them in this. I get a range of people. I get some people who are, you know, some of my clients are, you know, classic people seeking divination, at a crossroads in their life. You know, recently divorced, or wanting to change career, or wanting to do something different at that crossroads? I also work with a lot of artists and event coordinators and things like that to plan events and ritual and ceremony and works of art, as well, and it's something that I like to point out to people who are, use the idea of a professional diviner or consultant being someone that would be useful to have on board a project, which is that this doesn't have to be, in much the same way that other magicians talk about magical work, doesn't have to be triage, doesn't have to be "oh god oh god oh god, emergency emergency, I need to, you know, pay my rent," or something. Those are valid things … ANDREW: Sure. AL: … to get help about and to need to deal with, but so much better is prevention than cure, right? ANDREW: Well, I, you know, not to say that we might not find ourselves in a martial sign that requires some kind of bloodletting or other kind of, you know, easing but, yeah, but if we're on top of it, on the regular ... AL: Right. ANDREW: You know when the thermometer starts to rise, we can deal with it then, before it kind of gets too high, right? AL: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, I find divination and consultation something that I end up doing for people who are not necessarily looking to massively change their lives as much as enrich them, right? It's not just people who are unhappy and it's certainly not just people who are desperate, which I think is also a little kind of … It's a bugbear of mine that, the idea that you would only ever consult, you know, a card reader or a professional astrologer if you were, like, desperate in some way, and I think that's a very unfair characterization of ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AL: ... people. Most, you know, the vast majority of my clients are people who take their divination very seriously, who employ it in a very mature and responsible manner in order to have better … to … rather than abnegate responsibility, to take that responsibility on more, and that's, you know, the role of a diviner, right? Is someone that can help someone chart the hauling coherence of influences around them, and empower them further, to be able to make better decisions and live their better life, right? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. And especially, I mean, to kind of come full circle here, if the people are dealing with a muddle of unknown problems and consequences, you know ... AL: Mmm. ANDREW: ... from spirits to mental health to physical health to whatever ... AL: Mmm. ANDREW: ... being able to sort that out, if the person is willing to take ownership of that and work with it, and go from there. I mean, that can be one of the most profound things ever, right? You know? AL: Absolutely. ANDREW: You actually can remove this spiritual influence, and then what you're left with, you know, while still no small thing, is then adjustable by other realms, you know, or other practices. AL: Yeah. ANDREW: You know? It's really, it's quite wonderful, you know, and .... And sometimes even knowing just, you know, knowing that it's in fact none of those, it's like, "Hey, you know what? This is not a spiritual thing." AL: Right. ANDREW: "Let's go back for this, you're good," you know? And that in itself is quite a liberation, because it gives an answer, even if it's, you know, even if then it leaves other questions, right? AL: Yeah, exactly, yeah! And it's also, you know, one of the things about divination as diagnostic technique is that it's bespoke, right? It's for that individual, at that particular time in their lives, with these particular choices and influences and patterns of virtue around them, right? So, it's by necessity a site-specific, time-specific, person-specific thing. It deals with … there is a ritual that is going on between diviner and client there. You are locating the client as a locus about which these forces are present, right? And in naming them, we are also kind of bringing them to light in some way and apprehending them in some way ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AL: ... and that hopefully becomes useful as well. And this is especially useful when diagnosis becomes not just prognosis but also an attempt at treatment and remediation, magically speaking, which is something that I think is very important, is not just telling someone, "this is the nature of your circumstances and conditions, good luck with that" [laughs], and signing out, so much as saying, "okay, well, you know, this is the difficulty in your career path at the moment. Let's see whether we can boost the positive influences that say that yes, there is a path for you in this career," for instance, for that kind of question, and also, "let us try and address this issue here in the tenth house with your current boss, who is clearly attempting to undermine you in some way," right? So, you can look at both the negative factors and attempt to rebalance them or address them, or secure the positive factors of the reading as well. And I think it's very easy for us to jump immediately on our, you know, cleansing baths and things like that when a reading comes up negatively, and, as well we should, but to kind of not think we need to do anything if a reading suggests that there is a good path ahead, and something I, you know, I sometimes recommend is, you know, if you get a really great reading, you should secure that in some way. Right? You should nail that thing down, and, like ... ANDREW: Yeah. AL: Keep that good luck in your pocket, in some way. ANDREW: Well, it's like in cowry shell divination, and divinations within the Orisha traditions, right? They say that the Iré, the form of blessing that can arise ... AL: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: That it is, that it can be tremendously fleeting, right? AL: Right. ANDREW: And that in fact, you know, when we see that come, when we see that there are blessings, and especially if they're sort of predicted firmly and there's nothing else to do about it … Well, the thing to do about it is still to be, like, diligent and tend it and pay attention to it … AL: Yes. ANDREW: … and, you know, and maybe make offerings even though they weren't specifically asked for ... AL: Yes. ANDREW: ... you know, to do things, to really hold that and sustain that, because, you know, it can turn to negativity so simply and so easily, and then it's very hard to get it back where it was before. AL: Yeah. ANDREW: You know, so, this notion that success is permanent or solid is, you know, seems really kind of dubious to me at best, you know? AL: Right. It's not this carrot that gets dangled in front of you that says if, you know, you just put in another five years at something you don't like, then eventually you will have made it and that will be the solid state, unending success of a predeath bliss, right? It's a nonsense. Yeah, we constantly have to fight for our blessings, and to secure them. And, you know, what was that beautiful ... Obviously, it was terribly sad that Ursula Le Guin passed recently, but it did mean that people were sharing a lot of her work, and her quotes, and that one about love seems particularly relevant here: "Love does not sit there like a stone; it must be remade constantly like bread." Right? The idea of constantly having to keep up the good things, the effort to enjoy the things in life and to enjoy each other. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Yeah. It never ends, right? AL: [laughs] Hmm! Right, right. ANDREW: Well, actually it ends. But then it really ends. AL: [laughs] ANDREW: So, the other thing that you mentioned earlier when we were talking was this idea of arguing with spirits, you know ... AL: [laughs] Right! ANDREW: ... You know, a person who would argue with the, you know, with the angels, and so on, right? And I think that it's such an important thing for people to consider, right? You know? Like, especially, you know, I mean, whether we're talking about ancestors, or whether we're talking about angels, or you know anything else or in between or wherever other ways, you know. It's … I think that, sort of, being open to wrestling with them about things, and you know, tussling out what is true or what's the real deal, you know ... And I don't mean, like, in the goetic way, like, "No, I'm not going to give you that, I'm only going to give you this." AL: Mmmhmm. [laughs] ANDREW: ... "Don't take advantage of me." ... AL: [laughs] ANDREW: But just, you know. I know that there are times, you know, in, like, spiritual masses, or with one of my guides in particular ... Well, she'll come down with a message and I'm like, "Dude, I'm not saying that!" AL: [laughs] ANDREW: "There's no way I'm saying it that way!" You know? AL: Right, right. ANDREW: And yet, people, you know, I think that, you know, there's lots of ways in which people believe that they should, you know, pass this along as like a pure testament of truth … AL: Right. ANDREW: … or the unequivocal goal of the situation, right? AL: Yeah, being, the idea that being a channel for spirit means that you don't have to worry about tact, or bedside manner, or, you know, offending people, that you are speaking a profound and unquestionable universal truth, yeah. I … I'm obviously a bit tedious at that, especially in divination. Certainly, I can share the experience of having a familiar spirit that helps me divine that says things in my ear in ways that I definitely wouldn't say to a client! Very blunt, shall we say … Mmmhmm! AL: … if not mean, occasionally! ANDREW: Yeah. AL: You know, also savagely accurate, to her credit. But yes. So, that again is a job of a diviner, right? To demonstrate that tact and that clarity that allows the best way for the medicine to be administered, right? The medicine of the consultation, the medicine of the regimen that might emerge from that, the story medicine, of, like, "this is how your current situation looks, the potential medicines, so this is what you could do about it," and, again, to evangelize about geomancy, for instance, one of the things that we can do is not just look at the clients or the person asking the question, the querent in the first house, we can also look to a couple of different houses depending on the exact nature of the context of the consultation, for how the diviner, how you, are being perceived, and crucially through those two things, you can then work out one of the best ways ... You can look at how the client will take your advice. You can look at how you can phrase it, you know? And so, you can read a chart and have attendant spirit guides saying, "You're going to need to phrase this very gently, this client is not going to be able to take you, you know, speaking plainly about this thing." Likewise, sometimes it's clear that you have to be incredibly blunt, and that that's what will be most useful, and if you aren't, then the client will jump on the one detail that they wanted to hear and ignore the other ones. And that's, that is in part, it's very easy to complain about quote unquote bad clients, but that's also something that I think diviners need to take a little bit of responsibility for. It's not just your job to plunk a message down in front of someone. It's also your job to, I think, help them unpack it and make it available and useful, and something that they can actually apprehend and engage with. ANDREW: Yeah. I also think that it's ... It can be part of the job of being a professional diviner to sort out and be clear with yourself, who do you not work well with, right? AL: Right. ANDREW: You know, who do you just not, who do you not like? What situations do you not want to, you know, deal with? Right? Like, you know, where are your strengths and weaknesses, you know? AL: Mmm. ANDREW: And not in a like, you know, a mean-spirited or even judgemental way, but like, well, are there certain kinds of situations where, for whatever reasons, I have no slack for that. AL: Right. ANDREW: And if the person comes up with that, I'm, you know, I might read for them, but I'm definitely not going to get magically involved in it, because my attention and my energy doesn't flow well, in those, because of that, you know? AL: Yeah, yeah. ANDREW: And I think that we as diviners can take way more agency in the process than I sometimes see people taking, you know? AL: Hmm. Yeah. I think so. Hmm. ANDREW: So, the other thing that I wanted to ask you about, though, the thing that I was curious about that's been sort of on my mind of what we would get to when we were on the show, was, so there's this great big revival, in my, from what I see, of working with saints these days. AL: Hmm. ANDREW: You know, and I see like lots of people, in the various spiritual and occult communities, kind of going back to working with saints and sort of having a magical relationship with them and those kinds of things. And, you know, you're definitely one of the people out there doing that work. Right? AL: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Were the saints always your companions? Or some saints? Was it a thing that you rediscovered? How did that happen for you? AL: Mmmm. Hmmm. Well. That's the great question. I did not grow up practicing Catholic. My family are Irish Catholic by birth lottery, as they would put it, and certainly in my house, my folks, these days, kind of agnostic, but certainly when I was growing up, fiercely, devoutly, socialists, atheists. But, as a result of the kind of family that I grew up in, we would be taken round an awful lot of churches and historical houses and manna houses and national trust properties and that kind of thing, partly so that my father could sit there and, or stand there and ask, you know, how many workers do you think died to build this structure? So , my early engagement with high churches and that kind of stuff was very much of a sense of like, there are a lot of dead people underlying this thing that still exists ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AL: And that certainly still informed how I approach saint work, in terms of, or saint devotion, I should say, really, in terms of how long it's been an active part of my practice. Certainly, learning from my great grandmother, before she passed, that there was a set of Irish naming traditions in the family, that there was a particular reason why ... [laughs] "Your middle name is Joseph, Al! Because you're named after your uncle Harry, whose middle name was also Joseph," as an example of this kind of thing that was done. It's like the whole idea of first born will be called this, second born will be this, third will be this, but then we also include what happens when they aren't all male and a variety of other circumstances. So, there were naming traditions I discovered, and, in attempting to understand my great grandmother, who was a remarkable woman, in terms of being a tiny little Irish Catholic lady. We'd no idea exactly how old she was. She ... Her father bribed the village clark to lie about her age so that she could come over to England and train as a nurse earlier. So, we're not entirely sure how old she was. But she was a devout Irish Catholic, set the table for dead relatives occasionally, certainly spoke about them like they were there, and also taught pranayama yoga for about 45, 50 years, and was a very early adopter of that in Woolhampton, in the U.K. So, she was an interesting and odd lady, and so, certainly trying to understand her through these two practices of, like, you know, rich dense energy kind of work and breathwork stuff and all the things that pranayama is, and this intense devotion. You know, she would talk about, you know, I would ask her, “how do you square these things?” And she'd say, "Well, I just don't tell the priest." [laughs] "It's not his business. I make sure I'm doing my breathing next to a pillar, so if I do pass out, then, you know, I won't cause a fuss..." ANDREW: Uh huh. You'll wake up eventually, so it'll be all right. AL: Yeah. Exactly. And, you know, "I see a sanctifying mass, and this opening effect of that, and I want to be as receptive as I can to that, so I open myself up as much as I can, and then I zip myself back up, and I go about my day." And so, that was very inspiring to me, and my earliest set of actually practicing things, rather than just reading Crowley or whatever else, was chaos magic. The idea of it not all having to fit into one cosmology, that you could do several things, and that that, you know, there wasn't even a negative capability of that, that you could have … you could be a Catholic who did pranayama. Obviously, you could do those things, but the idea of mixing spiritual traditions, or at least parallel practice of them, was an influence. I think the first set of things that I ended up doing more formally, in terms of what felt like magic, rather than what just felt like, you know, going to a Saint Stevens church and, you know, enjoying the peace and quiet, and taking on the aspect of seeking calm, and that kind of thing … The first sort of work that was like, all right, I have this saint in front of me, and all sorts of incenses, and I'm trying to work a spell with him, was Cyprian. AL: Oh, right. So, the first spellwork, shall we say, I did with a saint was after I was recommended to work with Saint Cyprian of Antioch. I made a sort of pilgrimage for a birthday to California to a particularly famous hoodoo candle store and came in and was just beginning my doctorate and so asked, you know, "What would you advise?" of the owner, "What would you advise that I take on in terms of a candle or a spell?" You know, I wasn't looking for, I wasn't shopping around for a patron. I was just wanting to work a particular thing, an academic success kind of ongoing working. And, you know, she asked, "Well, what is it that you're doing? What's the nature of this research?" And after I'm telling her, it's about the history of magic, she says, you know, "Well, obviously you should be buying this Cyprian candle, and this is how you can work it," and fixed it front of me and showed me some of the bits and pieces and showed me a couple of other things as well. But that was the start of, yeah, a relationship that's only deepened, where, yeah, my ... And a variety of things occurred after that. Again, saint work is very tied to ancestor work for me, and certainly the dreams I had after I started working with Cyprian, of ancestors coming to me, you know, proud that I was finally working with a nice Catholic saint ... ANDREW: [laughs] AL: ...Despite his hideous reputation, and rightly, you know, and justifiably so, he's not necessarily someone whose earlier history or career is particularly admirable or something that you would want to repeat in terms of selling the equivalent of roofies. But, nevertheless, they were delighted that I was even engaging with this stuff at all, on a more formal level, and that for me was one of the big ... Along with the fact that, you know, when I took things to him, they worked out the way I wanted them to, or they worked out for my benefit. Along with offering me a set of challenges of things to work on, of things to work through, was how it bolstered my connection to my ancestors. And ... ANDREW: And I find it's quite interesting how ... I mean, so there's the baseline layer of, like, "Hey, I need more money," or "Hey, I want success in my academic career," or, you know ... AL: Uh huh! ANDREW:... "...cause I'm hoping to have a baby..." or whatever the things are that people, you know, want and need that they go to saints for. But at the same time, I feel like you really kind of hit on something there, which is sort of the unexpected second level of that process, which is, you know, you go to them, and they're like, "Yeah, sure, give me a candle, and I'll do this thing for you, no problem," right? But if you stick around with them for a while, then they start, like, working on you, right? AL: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: They start tinkering with you in a way to bring out some kind of evolution or change or growth or ... you know? AL: Yeah. ANDREW: That's certainly been my experience, right? AL: Yeah, and I think this is especially the case when you start taking on a saint, not just as someone that helps you in a particular aspect of your life, but as a patron of your ... Either your main career, or even of all of your magic, and that's certainly ... Cyprian is one of those, for me, is someone I go to for any work I do for a client or for myself and when you allow a patron to ... When you allow yourself space in the container to allow a patron to hold space for helping you make decisions about things that aren't just, you know, "Oh, this is the saint I go to for money work," right? If you have a relationship with that saint in other aspects of your life, if you're going to them about, like, you know, asking for the clarity to be able to make a useful decision about, you know, a new relationship that's just started or something like that, you're giving them more space to be able to help you. Right? You're opening up more roads, if you want to phrase it like that, for them to, like you say, start working on you in ways. ANDREW: Yeah, and it's ... I think it's a very ... I think it's fascinating and a powerful way to go. And I think it's really helpful. And I also notice that a lot of people are very uncomfortable with being that open with spirits. AL: Hmm! [laughs] ANDREW: And with having that level of dialogue about everything that's going on in their life with spirits, right? AL: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: You know, there's, you know, I mean, there can be, a) a very sort of transactional relationship that people have, like, "I'll give you this, you give me that." AL: Mmm. ANDREW: But even if it's relational, there's this sort of, I don't know if it's a legacy of parenting issues in the West or whatever, but ... AL: [laughs] ANDREW: You know, there's this sort of, "Well, you know what, but they don't get to tell me how to live my life," right? AL: [laughs] Yeah. ANDREW: Do they not? Is that what's going on? Like I think about that with the Orishas. Do they tell me how to live my life? Not in the way people mean it, right? AL: Mmm. ANDREW: But certainly, in a way that most people would be relatively uncomfortable with. I'm going to hear their advice and do my best to live it all the time, because the space in the container that I have with them allows for that and allows, and makes things happen that otherwise would never happen separately, you know? If I was stuck in my head or in my sense of self too strongly. AL: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And being able to discern what your head is wanting and what is useful for your life path is some deep stuff, right? And is going to require a different engagement than, you know, "How do I solve this current immediate problem," right? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AL: "How do I live my best life?" is a different question, and requires a ... Yeah, my experience of being involved for a couple years in Lukumí Orisha worship is that, yeah, it's a very different ball game in terms of, you know, it's an established tradition with an actual priestcraft of actual work and learning. And that's not to say that other traditions don't also have those things, but the level of commitment, and of taking on good advice and attempting to live it every day, right? Is a really important thing, and something that other traditions when they do well, do very well as well. But that, if we're talking Orisha, that's been certainly my experience, is that that closeness is also, you know, rewarded with the calm and the coolness and the development of good character that we're attempting to achieve, to leave the marketplace of the world in a better place than it was when we got here, before we go back home to heaven. ANDREW: Yeah. And I also think that, like, it's also interesting that, you know, again, it's sort of part of the, you know, legacy of modern thinking in some ways, you know, this sort of idea that, you know, a saint or spirit might only kind of govern one limited aspect, and, while I think that that's certainly true of some classes of spirits, that their spectrum of influence or their … from a human point of view, is limited and you might want to keep it there ... AL: Sure. ANDREW: You know, these sort of relationships with saints and things like that, you know, this idea that you can be open to messages that are not necessarily within their, you know, official textbook definition wheelhouse ... AL: Right. ANDREW: ... is also very fascinating. You know, I started working with St. Expedite a long time ago. That's kind of part of my bridge from ceremonial stuff into African diasporic traditions, as a sort of, you know, a syncretism for other spirits. And then, when I finally sort of landed in my Orisha tradition and sort of removed all my stepping stones that had gotten me there, St. Expedite was the only one who stayed. You know? AL: Hmm. ANDREW: And he was like, "No, no, dude, I'm not leaving, no, I'm with you now." And I was like, "Oh, okay!" I didn't quite catch that distinction as it was going on. And then … But, by way of sort of the differences, you know, he sort of, wasn't prominent, I wasn't really working with him for like 15 years, or something like that, just had my pieces tucked away amongst my relics of other times and things that I don't do much of any more. And then all of a sudden, I came across this painting I had done of him, and he was like, "Dude, I'm out, you've got to put me out now." AL: [laughs] Hmm! ANDREW: And when, and, the messages that I got from him were all about my art work, and not about, sort of ceremony, and spirits, or working with the dead or, you know, other things like that ... AL: Huh. ANDREW: And so, it was this very interesting thing where he came forward with this message, that is not entirely incongruous with his nature per se, but certainly not where I would think to start with, you know? AL: Yeah. ANDREW: And, you know, I'm sitting here looking at him as we're talking... AL: Hmm. ANDREW: And he's kind of like nodding his head, like "I was right, dude, that's it!" AL: [laughs] I love that, that's beautiful, the idea of some particular aspect of your life that they would manifest their advice and their power in that isn't, that you're not going to read in some, you know, in some encyclopedia of saints or the Golden Legend or some botanic pamphlet, but that that's something that you've come to, yourself. It reminds me of the way that people sometimes talk about plant allies as well, and I think this is a wider aspect of what we mean by spirit patronage, right? That that spirit might be, you know, you might get on famously and become, you know, fast friends, and that that plant might then be willing to work in ways that, again, aren't in, you know, aren't in the encyclopedias of herb magic or Cunningham or any of those other things ... ANDREW: Sure. AL:... isn't keyworded that like, this plant that you work with every day and consider a patron of your greencraft and of your life in general, would do a thing that might be unusual, you know, might be added to a bath or a charm bag or something that wasn't typically included in that kind of thing. That's certainly a relationship I have with rosemary, where ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AL:... beyond its noted capacity for memory, and, you know, its necromantic value and its purifying and asperging uses … I have in the past had definite spirit contact to say, "You should include me in this bath for something completely different, because I am one of your, you know, because I want to be involved in this and I can further empower it." And confirming that through divination as well, which I think is also something that gets underreported is that, again, spirit contact and nonrational ways of knowing and spirit communication can also be facilitated by computational divination, you know, you can still throw your, your sticks, your shells, your things to confirm that that is the spirit saying that thing and it's not either you or some other spirit or, you know, some other option of things. And so, in confirming that, yeah, I was putting rosemary in everything for a while. Because it was standing up and saying, like, "Yeah, I can do this too, I can do this too, I can do this too." ANDREW: Yeah. I've had a similar experience with burdock. AL: Hmm. ANDREW: You know, where people … Especially with sending people to work with it? AL: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Because here in Toronto, it's prevalent everywhere at a certain point in the year, you know, it just takes over everything, you know, that energy will be like, "Yeah, tell them to come and collect some of this part of me, and do this thing with it and all..." AL: Nice! ANDREW: "Or help them in this way," or you know. I remember somebody was like, somebody had to like, somebody who was trying to let go of some childhood stuff and the plant basically came in and said, "Hey, tell them to come and find the biggest one around and dig up my whole root, and when they're done, they'll be healed." And it took them a long time! You know? AL: Yeah, yeah yeah. ANDREW: Because it was big and spreading. But it was profound, and it was transformative for that person by their report, so. AL: Right. ANDREW: There are many reasons that can happen. But also, as you say, that verifying it, you know, whatever your divination tools for verification, or checking with a spirit that you have more concrete mechanisms with or whatever, I think that that's so important, because, you know, this sort of, free will and idea that I can just sort of intuit anything and that could be the answer, it's like, well, eh, maybe, possibly... AL: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: ...but, I get very twitchy about that at times, because stuff starts to come out, where it's like, "Well, yeah, but you know what, that's actually not a good idea, and these other ways are,” or, “This is kind of toxic, or kind of … you know?" AL: Yeah, and that's where ... Exactly, exactly. And that's where using a divination technique that is definite, that is computational, that is like, "No, that card says this thing," isn't like a, you know, a fudge, isn't like a coin on its side, computational, but also that provides qualified answers, so not just flipping a coin of like, yes or no, is this what the spirit said? But, you know, a three card throw, that allows for, you know, two reds and a black, meaning yes, but...? Right? Or two blacks and a red meaning no, but ... ? Right? Which allows, not just the confirmation of the thing that you think you're receiving, but also allows the spirit to give you extra information as well. To say, "Yes, you heard me right about that stuff, but you also need to check this other thing that you haven't checked," or "No, that's not what I said, but, you are on the right track in terms of this direction." Have I cut out again? AL: [laughs] I think I may have cut out again, briefly, there. [laughs] ANDREW: I heard your comment about two reds and a black, or two black and a red? And then you stopped. Want to start again? AL: Yeah. AL: All right. So, I think it's very important to have a divination system that can provide not just a yes or no response to what you think you've received from spirit contact but that you are also able to give a qualified answer of “yes, but,” or “no, but,” right? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AL: That you have some form of throwing that doesn't just give you a thumb's up or a thumb's down, but that also offers the spirit a chance to say, “Yes, that's what I meant, in that case, but you've also forgotten that you need to deal with this thing as well.” Or, “No, that's not what I meant, but you're on the right track in terms of thinking in this way,” all right? So, it's not just about a gatekeeping of which images and which contact gets in and which doesn't, but also, you are continually negotiating and allowing yourself to have more space to hear a more nuanced transmission. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Yeah, and I think the idea of developing nuance is just so important, right? AL: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: I mean, whatever divination tool you're looking at, you know, I think this idea that we could sort of have a, you know, in the exact same way as we're talking about the saints, right? You have a real relationship with your divination system; it's conveying information that goes well beyond, you know, yes or no, or even like, yeah, it's pretty good, or not good. There are so many other pieces that start to emerge from the practice and then getting to know those things that then facilitate the shaping of it, right? AL: Mmmhmm, yeah. ANDREW: Yeah. AL: Yeah, I think so. And, you know, that can be a sign that you're making deeper engagement with a saint, is when they start coming out with stuff that you haven't read somewhere, right? That you haven't ... and that's not license for everyone to be, you know, "Oh, well I dress Expedite in pink, and, you know, I never offer him pound cake," that's no excuse to throw away tradition. But that is a sign where, if you're working respectfully, most traditions have a notion that, like, there's going to be idiosyncracies. There's going to be particularities and personalizations both in terms of how the spirit works with you and how you work with the spirit. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Yeah. AL: Right? ANDREW: And variations by geography and culture. AL: Absolutely, absolutely! Yeah. ANDREW: Cause I grew up with nothing religiously, you know? Like nobody considered it, nobody was for it, nobody was against it, you know, people were sort of like vaguely slightly a little bit mystic at times, but there was kind of nothing, you know? So like, the first time I remember going to church was when I was like 11 and my parents had gotten... had separated, and we lived in a small town and my mom was trying to find some community. So we went to the Anglican church, but, you know, I didn't have any connection to any of those things, so, you know, and never mind if I was from like a totally different culture than sort of the Western culture of something else engaging with this. AL: Yeah. ANDREW: It might just be like, "You know what? You don't have pound cake, but you got this other thing like cake, that looks good,” you know? AL: Right, right. And this is especially the case when you're looking at quote unquote folk practices, you know, what people who weren't rich did, and continue to do in many parts of the world, that, you know, that San Rocco, that Saint Roch, doesn't behave like the one four villages down. You know, one of them is more about warding off plague, because he warded off a plague once, or several times, right? And the other might be more about bringing in the harvest, because that's, you know, that's the famine that he avoided by being petitioned, right? And successfully performed a miracle. And so, yeah, the terroir of spirit work, that sense that like, this particular place dealt with, you know, this aspect of that spirit that was called the same thing that they called it down the road, or a different spirit sharing that name, or however it ends up shaking out, you know, whatever your ontology of the situation seems to suggest. That's super important, yeah, that there isn't, you're not necessarily dealing with a wrong way of working with them, so much as a different way. But that again is not something that emerges from just wandering through, you know, reading 777 and deciding that you're going to cook up a bunch of stuff, right, over a nice cup of tea? That's the result of many hands working for a very long time, and requiring something done about an immediate danger, and certainly I'm thinking of San Rocco in southern Italy, you know. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AL: Cause if the saint don't work, it gets thrown in the sea! [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah, sure, right? AL: Or put in front of the volcano. ANDREW: Yeah. yeah, and that's always an interesting thing to consider, right? We can make a, you know, a thought form, or whatever you want to call it. We can create spiritual energies to accomplish certain things, but the sort of depth and the history of energy, prayer, offering, and kind of the lineage of different places, you know, like the saint in that village versus the saint in this village. AL: Right. ANDREW: You know, I mean, I think that those create something very different over time, and whether that all comes from the same source or whatever we choose to believe that that is another matter ... AL: Right, right, right. ANDREW: But this sort of idea that if we're going to work with somebody in a certain way, like if we want San Rocco to do this thing versus that thing, then we might want to take a bit more of that other town's approach, or, you know, see what are the differences in practices that might help call that energy out in that way. AL: For sure. For sure. ANDREW: Not unlike singing certain songs in the Orisha tradition or, you know, playing certain beats or making certain offerings, bring out different faces of the spirits, right? AL: Mmm. ANDREW: You know? There are the ways in which ... the way in which we approach them, and what we give them, is also part of their process and channel of manifesting that opens up these different capacities in a different way, you know? AL: Right, and crucially, you're dealing with diaspora as well, you're dealing with how does a tradition or a set of traditions try and remember not just its own thing, but remember the traditions of their brothers and sisters, right? Who were, you know, no longer, can sometimes no longer remember where it is they're from, right? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AL: And, and, and that's a really important thing. It isn't just, you know, oh well, you know, the ... [laughs] I don't know, fatuous example, oh the Elegua of Brooklyn doesn't receive toasted corn, he asks for like Pabst Blue Ribbon or whatever, right? ANDREW: Uh huh. AL: This isn't something that you can just like, decide, or, you know, think you've had an experience without confirming any of this with any of the initiated priests of that tradition, right? Likewise, the diaspora of, say, again to continue that example, cause it's one I'm more familiar with, through the work of my wife in Italian folk magic, of San Rocco in south Italy … There are different expressions of him in the New World, you know, there's a very long running procession through New York's Little Italy, that's one of the most celebratory saint festivals I've ever been to, over here. Sometimes, I'm sure, you know, you've had similar experiences that even a saint that is considered holy and happy has a kind of somberness, especially when we're celebrating their martyrdom, whereas ... Yeah, the San Rocco festival in New York is a joy. There are confetti cannons, it's delightful. And, but it's also very reverent. You know? The ... Certainly, the central confraternity do it barefoot and, you know, make a real effort that it's a community event and those kinds of things, and, that's where modifications come in as well. That's where traditions develop and grow and live and breathe and stretch, is in actually interacting with a new land, and with different communities, and kinds of people and those are where, like, "Oh, we couldn't get this kind of wine so we got this other kind of wine," those kinds of things, things like substitutions as I understand it start to come in. But it's something that occurs from within stretching out, it's not something that can be, you know, with that etic emic thing, it's not something that an outsider can then take something of, and claim anything like the same sort of lineage, and the same kind of oomph, the same kind of aché, the same kind of virtue or grace moving through that thing. ANDREW: We can't claim substitutions because it's hard to get that thing, or whatever, right? AL: Right. ANDREW: You know, and they only really take off when, you know, when it's required. But I'm going to tell you right now, and everybody else listening, if there's ever a procession for me, I would like it to have confetti cannons. AL: [laughing] ANDREW: That definitely is a part of a cult that I would like to bounce, so, let's make that happen sometime. AL: [laughter] AL: For sure, good to stick around and be useful! ANDREW: Yep. So, we're kind of reaching the end of our time here, but I also wanted to touch on your new book, which is out. AL: Yes! ANDREW: Yes. So, The Three Magi, right? Tell me, tell people, tell me, why, what is it about them that draws you? Why did you write this book? Where did it come from? AL: It came from … That's an amazing question. There are a couple things. One is that I have a very central part of my practice that is about working with dead magicians, and working with the attendant spirits around them. And a kind of necromancy of necromancy, if you want to put it like that. From specific techniques to a kind of lineage ancestor sense, from the fact that my doctorate was handed to me by hand shake by someone who had hands laid on them, who had hands laid on them, back to the founding of the charter and having a sense of that. The spiritual lineage of academic doctors, and in studying the dead magicians of the 17th century, for instance, and how they were interested in, say, Elias Ashmole, interested in forming this kind of lineage of English magic. That feels a little bit Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell at times, to be honest. ANDREW: Sure. AL: So, I've been interested in dead magicians for a while, and had found them kind of turning up in my practice and helping me do my history of them. You know, they were very invested in how they were being portrayed, funnily enough. And the magi became a locus, a way in which I, as someone that wasn't necessarily, certainly from the outside, looking like I was living a terribly good pious early modern Christian life, could be talking to these Christian magicians. It was a way of framing ... Well, we all appreciate the magi, right? Who are both ... and that's another fascinating point, like Cyprian, you know, arguably more so than Cyprian, they're both Christian and not. They are the first Gentiles to make this pilgrimage, they're utterly essential to the nativity narrative, they're also, you know, categorically astrologers, and probably Babylonian, and drawing on a variety of older traditions, certainly around Alexander the Great, and his invasions into various different regions mirror some of the kinds of mythic beats of their story, of the magis' story ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AL: So there was this sense of, I was already working with dead magicians, I was interested in the role of magic in the traditions and saint devotion and things that I was already exploring, and I've always been attracted to liminal spirits and found working with them very helpful, the ones that exist on a threshold between things, the symmetry gates , the wall between two things, the border crosses, if you like. And, their unique status as a cult is also interesting as well in that, by the 14th century, certainly, they are considered saints, you know, Saint Gaspar, Saint Belchior, and Saint Balthazar. But they're also utterly important to that tradition but kind of outside of it, but also legitimizing it, and certainly this is how their cult played out from the vast popularity of their pilgrimage site in Cologne, which became one of the four major hubs of pilgrimage, which was a big deal, right, in the medieval period. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AL: Into the exploration into the so-called New World, where, again, the kings were employed by both colonizers, there was a concept of preconquest evangelization, the idea that the message, the good message of the Nazarene had extended to the quote unquote savages of the Americas, which is why the Mayans had crosses, supposedly. That they had civilization, so they must know about Christianity, because that's the only civilization that builds, you know, that's the only culture that could allow a civilization to occur. And so this frames the conquest of the New World, again the quote unquote New World, as a matter of reminding people that they were already Christian. And one of the ways that this was done was to tell colonized people that one of the kings who came from afar was from them. And thus, their king had already acquiesced to the will of, you know, these white colonizers, or these, you know, these European colonizers. But, in doing that, they also allowed colonized and sometimes actually enslaved people a sense of, like, autonomy, that they had a magician king ancestor, that even though that was being annexed on the one hand, it was also, it also fomented political dissent. And so that notion of a powerful and politically ambiguous set of figures became really really interesting to me. ANDREW: Mmm. AL: It also, you know, in terms of personal anecdotes, they also became more significant when I moved to Bristol and I was touring as a performance poet and a consultant magician and diviner, and I was getting cheap transport a lot because I was also a student, and I was getting the megabus, if you're familiar with that, and it stopped just outside of one of the only chapels dedicated to the three kings in Europe, which happens to be in Bristol. And so, I would see them every day as I was setting out on a journey, and so I started looking for them in grimoires, and finding that most of the spells that are considered under their aegis, or their patronage, are works of safe travel. Right? Are works of journeying, right? Of going, of adoring, and then returning via a different way, right? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AL: And that model has greatly inspired me, I mean, directly, in terms of the work I was doing, working with the land I had and the places I had and the opportunities I had to make quick offerings when I needed to, you know, make sure I was nursing a nasty hangover on a five hour journey, you know, going to a gig somewhere. But also, you know, getting off the bus at the end of journeys and saying thank you and gathering dirts and using that in that way. And certainly, the idea of them being patrons, not just of where you pilgrimaged to, but the patrons of pilgrims themselves, feels very powerful to me. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AL: And that sense of them, that we don't pray to them, that we pray like them, also feels to me very much like an important necromantic aspect of the ancestor cults around them, that we imitate them, that we too are on a journey, looking for the light that points to majesty, of some kind, whatever that is. That we too are on a journey in terms of passing from life to death, and maybe to return, right? To be a bit mystical. I find it very interesting that occasionally the magi, or lithographs of the magi and the star, find their ways into, or are venerated in, some houses of Haitian Vodou, right, where they refer to the Simbi, and that notion of spirits that have died and then died again and crossed over again to become spirits of some kind. And that mass of the idea of not simply working with a saint who is that thing, that you are working with the elevated soul of someone that used to wander round in a human body and is now, in theory, sat at the right hand of God, right? You're also working, or you can also work, with an attendant set of dead folk who cohere around that point of devotion, because they also worshipped like that. And that's again, that sense of like ancestral saint work for me is very important, not just who ... what icon am I staring at, but who, what spirits, what shades do I feel around me who are also facing that direction? Right? And who am I in communion with, and who am I sharing that communion with? ANDREW: I love it. Yeah, I mean there's reason why people use the term, "spiritual court," right? AL: Yeah, yeah. ANDREW: Who are we all, whose court are we at and who are we all, you know, lining up with in that place and so on? AL: Yeah! ANDREW: I love it. Well, thank you so much for making the time today, Al. AL: Oh sure, yeah! No, it's been great! ANDREW: You should definitely check out Al's book. We have it at the shop. It's available in other places too. And if people want to come and hang out with you on the Internets, where should they go looking for you, Al? AL: Oh, they can find me at my website, which is http://www.alexandercummins.com. There's my blogs there, there's a bunch of free lectures, you can book my consultation services through that, jump on the mailing lists to hear about gigs I'm doing, in wherever it is I am [laughs], touring around a bit more these days, which is lovely to be on the road. Just got back from New Orleans, which was great to see godfamily there and to do some great talks I really enjoyed. So yeah, my website … ANDREW: I also have an archive of premodern texts, scans of texts, grimoiresontape.tumblr.com, if people want to check out, you know, any of these texts from 17th century magicians that I've been kind of digging up, that's certainly something I'm encouraging people to do, is do that. I teach courses through my good friends at Wolf and Goat, Jesse and Troy, just finished a second run of the Geomancy Foundation course that I run, and I'll be setting up to do a course introducing humeral theory and approaches to the elements and that kind of embodied medical and magical kind of practice stuff, which, hopefully, you know, diviners and people like that will be interested in. One of these underlying things for a lot of Western occult philosophy and magical practice that doesn't necessarily get looked at a lot. ANDREW: Yeah. Well, we'll have something for us to have a further conversation about at some point, then. AL: Oh yeah, I'd love that! Yeah, for sure! ANDREW: Well, thanks again Al, and, yeah, I really appreciate it. AL: Oh, great! No, no, it's been a pleasure. Thank you, Andrew.

Paige and Andrew talk about the magickal power of art in their lives. They also talk about spirits, shamanism, shaman sickness, magick, geography and the power of plants.  You can find paige on her website here and on social media (Facebook INSTAGRAM). If you are interested in supporting this podcast though our Patreon you can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Thanks for listening! If you dig this please subscribe and share with those who would like it. Andrew   If you are interested in booking time with Andrew either in Toronto or by phone or Skype from anywhere click here.   ANDREW: I want to first start off by saying, big thank you to all the wonderful people who are supporting the Patreon for this podcast. They are getting some awesome bonus stuff, like special recordings, sneak peeks of art work and other projects that I'm working on, and they are helping grow this podcast. They are helping move towards the goal of providing transcriptions so that deaf people can take part in these conversations, and they are also helping support the work that I do, running down guests, getting people on the show, coordinating people in different time zones and on other sides of the planet, and, finally, they're helping improve the production value of this podcast by allowing me to start considering acquiring better equipment and get away from some of the janky duct-taped together process I've been doing for a long time. If you dig the podcast, jump over to Patreon.com/thehermitslamp and pitch in. Every dollar helps.  So, welcome to The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I am here today with Paige Zaferiou, and she is a tarot reader, and all around magical being, and I thought it was time for us to have some conversations so that people could get to know her and see what she's about. So, for people who don't know you, Paige, who are you? What are you up to? What's going on over there?  PAIGE: Hi, Andrew! Yeah, thank you so much for having me! First of all, it's such a pleasure to be here on your esteemed podcast. My whole dealio, I guess, is I'm a so-called eclectic shamanic artist, which is a bunch of words that means I use a variety of different media, very eclectic media, to do a variety of things. I am a tarot reader, and an astrologer, and a ritualist, and spirit-initiated shaman, as well as a fine artist. I do watercolors, book binding artist books, tarot/oracle decks, and other visual media, and all of it really is united by my very Aries enthusiasm. That's really my jam. I just love being here. I'm so happy to be an incarnated being right now. What a time to be alive!  ANDREW: Definitely. What a time to be alive, huh? [laughs] PAIGE: Mmmhmm, mmmhmmm. [laughs] ANDREW: So, when I hear you talk about what all the things that you're up to… PAIGE: Mmmhmm… ANDREW: I feel like hey, you and I have this in common, right, an artist and ritualist and many of those things, maybe not the astrologer part, I don't feel—that's more of an amateur thing for me than a more serious thing, but, how do you sort of hold that together, you know?  PAIGE: Oh, that's a good question! Well, I guess I'll start by saying that, for the context in my life: I am someone who has been diagnosed with ADHD, from a very young age, maybe an unusually young age. When I was about seven years old, I was recruited for a medical study at Mass General Hospital on girls with ADHD, and I was part of that medical study for 13 years, and so the context for my life has always been, one who is able to hold many things in the sort of container of my mind, practice, and daily life with, if not ease, a sort of natural— ANDREW: Mmmhmm.  PAIGE: —just sort of that just is how it is. There's always been a lot going on in my life, and the juggling act has been something that I guess you could apply the old saying of it's about the journey, not the destination?  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. PAIGE: There is a certain enjoyment I get from juggling all the things that I do and all the different pieces, and part of that joy is in pattern recognition, is in looking for the patterns between things that might seem to be very different, but they have a sort of underlying, unifying pattern of some kind, and finding out what that is has been part of the joy for me—even if it's not readily apparent and even if I still don't quite have all the answers for what that might be, it's something I enjoy very much, that mystical constant searching, for WHY do I do the things I do, what is it about this that draws me, why am I called in this direction, and surrendering myself to the joy of the journey, and the joy of seeking those answers. Which is definitely a big part of being a shaman as well, and the shamanic technology is about the journey is the experience, the journey is the answer, the question is the answer, being able to hold all those things at one time.  ANDREW: Yeah, I dig it. I feel like for me, the sort of diversity of what I do is more, I mean I think of it as, there are just times where applying myself in different ways makes more sense, you know?  PAIGE: Mmmhmm.  ANDREW: You know, it's like, what does this person need? Well, they need some art made, and the art will help them get into that space, you know, and for me, it's kind of this sort of constant search, not so much like in terms of a journey, although I mean it's obviously a journey, but more so in the sense of a constant search for better ways to articulate and express myself.  PAIGE: Mmmm.  ANDREW: You know, and I feel like, it's about finding those spaces where I'm present and able to be present and share from that place, whether that's cards or art or, you know, any of the other kinds of things that I get into, so.  PAIGE: Yeah, absolutely!  ANDREW: So, how… you said “spirit-led shamanism.” How did that come about? Like, where was the start of that for you?  PAIGE: Oh, my gosh! I would say the real start of that was when I was about 25, maybe, I was in my, you know, early, mid-twenties, I was really starting to deepen my relationship to the tarot, and it all started when I got this tarot deck, the Wildwood Tarot, that you are probably familiar with. And it's very Druidic, a kind of shamanic deck, and it started drawing me in towards the path of shamanism, and I really felt called to explore that more, and begin to educate myself and basically called up my parents and said, you know, “Mom, Dad, I think I want to be a shaman,” and they said, “Oh, that's really funny! You were baptized by a shaman woman when you were a baby!”  ANDREW: Uh-huh. PAIGE: And, oh! ANDREW: Imagine that!  PAIGE: So, I began to explore more deeply and then after a couple of years, in early 2015, I experienced shaman sickness, very suddenly, very frighteningly, the unexplained illness that mimics physical death… ANDREW: Yeah. PAIGE: …under the tutelage of an initiatory helping spirit who had been in my life for about a year, year and a half, really, really strongly, and it all suddenly came together, and the shaman sickness has been coming kind of in waves, deepening. Every year or so, I'll have another bout. I just actually, very recently, experienced another level of shaman sickness, and so, when I say spirit-led initiation, that's what I mean, I have helping spirits who are not physical, human people, but on the spiritual level who are guiding me through these initiatory experiences, teaching me some more shamanic technology, helping me encounter the different cases, the different problems that will come across my path for me to really engage with on the shamanic level, and… So there wasn't, other than the woman who baptized me when I was a baby, there really wasn't an incarnated human person guiding me on this path other than the teachers and authors who… Works that I've read, whose writings I've engaged with, whose teachings I've engaged with. It's never been a one to one physical mentorship on this path so far, with the exception of the other shamans I've encountered, who are fairly few and far between, the shamans who've encountered shaman sickness thrust upon them unexpectedly…  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. PAIGE: …and gone through that journey as well.  ANDREW: How did, how did you, how did you know that it was shaman sickness? Like what differentiated that?  PAIGE: One of the, I don't know if this is a copout answer, but I just sort of knew, on one level, but it was the first level, I just sort of knew, this is something not entirely physical, there's something really deep happening here, and part of how I knew were, there were the clues that later, when I encountered other shamans who'd experienced the same thing, we were able to compare notes and say, “okay, okay, now I see what's really happening here!” Some of those signs included increased encounters with spirits of the dead… ANDREW: Mmmhmm. PAIGE: …very intense encounters with spirits of the dead, symptoms of spiritual attack, the presence of the initiatory helping spirit, and some of the plant helping spirits associated with that spirit. The complete unexplained nature of the illness, there was no—each time it's happened there's been really no traceable source, it just sort of happened.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. PAIGE: And then the, all the messages, signs, and omens that I was receiving during the periods around that time that made it clear, like, you're going through an initiatory experience here, and it wasn't all nicely neatly revealed at one time, like “Here's what's happening, here's why, here's who we are, it's part of your team, like enjoy this nice, clarified experience!” [laughs] ANDREW: [laughs] “Here's your access card to the bat cave,” you know?  PAIGE: [laughing] Right! ANDREW: And “you're now on the team,” right?  PAIGE: “Here's your welcome package! Read through your pamphlets!” Wouldn't that be nice? But, yeah, so it kind of unfolded over the last couple of years, I really was able to retroactively contextualize it and affirm that which at the time I just sort of knew to be what was happening.  ANDREW: I think it's always interesting how different ways of knowing fit into these kinds of journeys, you know, there's— PAIGE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: —there's the thing that we feel at the time, and then there's the sort of deeper moments of clarity that come later— PAIGE: Mmm. ANDREW: —that, then as you say, sort of trickle backwards, you know?  PAIGE: Yeah. ANDREW: And, you know, like when I got initiated in the Orisha tradition, one of the things that they talked about was the fact that these spirits had been with me since childhood, you know, guiding me and looking out for me, and, you know, it's like, I mean I grew up in small town Ontario— PAIGE: Mmmhmm! ANDREW: It's not something that I expected, you know? And yet I knew that the influence of spirit was there for a long time, so. PAIGE: Yeah, exactly. ANDREW: Yeah.  PAIGE: [garbled] ANDREW: Yeah, it's always a challenge, you know, because I run a store, and because it's open, you know, I deal with anybody off the street a lot, people often arrive with such, like, concrete ideas of what's going on? PAIGE: Mmm.  ANDREW: And I'm almost like, whoa, slow down! Slow, let's find out, let's look, let's see what it is now, maybe so, right? And then let's explore and verify and deepen that understanding, and, you know, and then sort of, and then, and then we'll get to that moment that you're talking about where it starts to congeal until you can see what the actual story is.  PAIGE: Yeah. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. PAIGE: Definitely, there's almost like a detective kind of element to it where you, you're gathering your evidence, you're observing, but you're trying not to judge and just be like, okay, I'm just going to be with what this is, what is this? ANDREW: Yeah.  PAIGE: And what is my, what are my extra senses telling me about this that I might not be able to verify yet, with actual evidence, but I'm just going to be with that and see how it plays out over time.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Yeah, exactly.  PAIGE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: So, how does the art fit into it for you?  PAIGE: Ohhhhh, the art. That's something as well as the spirit that's just always been there, but it's been a little bit more clearly defined through the years, because it's a little bit more—it's easier to kind of contextualize art, and I come from a family of artists. I don't necessarily come from a family of shamans, so I always had the artistic context for my life that enabled me to really dig into that and to have that as this support and this means of exploring my experience. Art was always something you could turn to, to dig into that, and it took me until college to find really my medium and my happy place.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. PAIGE: I was extremely fortunate. I studied at the University of Massachusetts, in my home state, and it just so happened that one of the professors there was a renowned watercolor artist named Richard Yarde, who has since passed, rest in peace. He was an absolute master of the craft, and really taught me a lot about the medium and created a space for me to really say wow, this is what this is for me, and it was just like that with the tarot. Tarot was not my first divination tool, the I Ching was my first divination tool. ANDREW: Hmm.  PAIGE: My mother taught me to throw the I Ching as a teenager, but when I encountered the tarot, as a fine artist, I was like, oh, man, this is it! This is the stuff, right here!  ANDREW: Yeah, yeah! PAIGE: Words and pictures and symbols? Sign me up! ANDREW: I'm down! PAIGE: Mmm! So down! ANDREW: Yeah! PAIGE: [laughs] And then realizing that I'd been painting like a watercolorist all those years, but I didn't have the skills with the medium, ‘cause it's a very difficult medium. ANDREW: Yeah.  PAIGE: Notoriously so, but, with the confidence of a great master behind me, to explore that, get to know that, and then take it from there, kind of, so, watercolor has always been my primary medium, since then, and—when you were talking earlier about all the different things that you do, and the different ways we can kind of understand that for ourselves, the first thing I thought of was fine art, was how, even though you might have your medium that you work in, and your type of work you do, I tend to be a portrait artist, I tend to be a fairly figurative illustrative artist, but I get a lot of influence from other disparate art branches, I guess, and artists who've gone before, and engaging with other artists as ancestors of spirit has been one of the things that's really bridged the gap for me between the visual arts and the spiritual arts, the sacred arts. Recently, here in Salem, there's an exhibit at the Peabody Essex Museum on Georgia O'Keefe… ANDREW: Uh-huh. PAIGE: …for example, and it's a very unique exhibit. It looks at her as a sort of icon of modern style, is the phrase they're using, so it's not just her art but also photographs of her, also her clothes that she made, her shoes that she wore, her jewelry that she wore, and piecing together this narrative of the unified, not only the art she was making but the way she lived her life all cohesing together in this—  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. PAIGE: —in this beautiful tapestry of existence that really spoke to me as both a visual artist and a spiritual artist, if that makes sense.  ANDREW: It does! I mean, I think that, you know, this sort of notion of, I mean, my friend Fabeku would call it lineage, right?  PAIGE: Yes, yes! ANDREW: And like, I, I think of, I don't think of a lot of artists as part of my lineage, but I like really strongly identify with both sort of Dali and Andy Warhol as sort of— PAIGE: Oh, yeah… ANDREW: —profound influences, you know, and I find that I turn to that at different times to sort of reconnect with what does it mean to be an artist? you know, and sometimes, in some cases, what does it mean to be sort of like a wild artist, or you know, this sort of out there on the edges of, like, where art and life and context and style and all of these things coalesce, right?  PAIGE: Yeah! ANDREW: And they all have symbolic power that could be accessed in one way or another, you know?  PAIGE: Mmmhmmm. ANDREW: You know, and I think that there are those artists that really bring that forward in a way, that makes a lot of sense for me, and it reminds me to sort of allow that to continue to unfold in my own life, you know?  PAIGE: Yeah, absolutely!  ANDREW: Yeah. I always find it interesting how art, and artists find their way, you know? I started out, I went to, I used to paint figuratively, and then I went to art school and did a lot of postmodern sculpture— PAIGE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: —and then I was basically like, screw all that business, I HATE it. PAIGE: [laughing] ANDREW: And then I didn't make art for a long time. PAIGE: Mmmmmmm.  ANDREW: And then I got back into painting, with like wash and stuff, and going back to, you know, very figurative stuff, and then, starting maybe about five years ago, I realized as I was like looking for like, less and less hairs on my brush so I could make finer and finer details, I was like, I want to change this direction up, I want to shake it up, and so I started moving into a much more open and exploratory kind of way, and you know, so, I made some art for a show that's opening in Elora, in Ontario next week, on the tarot card The Lovers—  PAIGE: Ohhh… ANDREW: You know it's by Shelley Carter, so, who did the Elora Tarot deck, and is a wonderful tarot person, and artist, and previous guest of the show, and when I showed the work to her and a few other people, they reminded them of like Basquiat matte, so, it's just like a long journey from, you know, sort of figurativeness to this very sort of loose and colorful and intense and accidental work that you know is really fun. And I've gone, I've also gone digital… PAIGE: Ohhh… ANDREW: …so I make all my work on my iPad, because I found that having kids made this sort of convenient excuse, I can never get to making art, I'm like, I have an iPad, I can get a stylus, I can do something, you know?  PAIGE: Mmmhmmm.  ANDREW: So. But, yeah. So that's definitely an area where the art is the journey for me in some ways. That's where my journey happens, because it's definitely, it's rarely a thing that I sit down and think about what it's gonna be, I just sit down and start working, and then I allow stuff to emerge, so.  PAIGE: Oh, that's lovely. Mmmhmm. I'm fascinated by the different ways that artists make art.  ANDREW: Yeah, for sure. PAIGE: Endless permutations. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. PAIGE: Mmmhmm. I've recently, just very recently, relocated to Salem, and one of the first things I did upon moving in was to establish a weekly art night with some local friends, none of whom are very serious visual artists, but, so, therefore watching them work has really shaken things up for me… ANDREW: Yeah. PAIGE: …has been something wonderful and seeing how they go about their art-making with no formal training, with no expectations for themselves, with like a self-styled fine artist, they're just having fun and making marks on paper and that's been a nice shake-up for me.  ANDREW: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's always, it's really interesting to sort of have those opportunities to see different ways of working and different people's approaches and stuff. PAIGE: Yeah. ANDREW: You know, I made a tarot deck last year, which is coming out later this year, so a lot of that in the end became very like, shut up, sit down, and make art. [laughs] To get ‘em done! Twenty-two cards to go, 18 cards to go, you don't feel like it, too bad, make the art! You know? PAIGE: [laughing] Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And it's the thing that I used to think would really kind of quash my inspiration or creativity, but you know, for me, showing up means everything else that wants to come out will show up too, you know, and so… PAIGE: Exactly! ANDREW: …and I think that, that, that, it's something that I didn't really understand previously, you know? Just sort of pushed through that process really brought that out in a way that has permanently I think changed my relationship to making stuff, so.  PAIGE: Mmm, that's beautiful! Yeah…What I've been finding lately is in order to get myself pysched up for the big project I'm working on whenever I go to the studio, ‘cause this is a big year for me in working on my own tarot decks as well, to take that pressure off myself a little bit I'll start the day by working on some kind of fun, quote unquote “throwaway” project. ANDREW: Yeah.  PAIGE: Some text art, or some pop culture-based art, or something just for me, or a gift for a friend, and just kind of like working those muscles out, you know. ANDREW: Mmmhmm.  PAIGE: And it's been wonderful fun and seeing the little things that came out as a result of my warm-up exercises, it's some of my favorite stuff I've ever made!  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. PAIGE: Funny that happens, sometimes. ANDREW: Exactly, exactly. I think that, you know, we need to take things seriously, but we need to like, not be serious about them while we're taking them seriously! [laughs] PAIGE: [laughing] Exactly!!! ANDREW: For sure. So, where were you before you moved to Salem?  PAIGE: Let's see, I moved around a bit. Right before Salem, I was in Brooklyn… ANDREW: Yeah. PAIGE: …for a year, and before that I was out, I spent nine months as a hermit in the woods of far western Massachusetts, just hermiting, completely out, living all, completely alone, making art, figuring some stuff out, and before that I was in San Francisco for about five years, and had the most wonderful time. That's where my first shaman sickness happened, that's where I started my business, that's where a lot of really important moving forward stuff happened for me, and as well, that's where art started to happen for me again. I stopped making art for a little bit after I graduated from school, I was living in England, and having one of those periods… I've noticed in my life, my art will go through these phases where I'll be just sort of absorbing, I'll be in a place, like for me England was so full of experience, I didn't have time to make art, I was too busy soaking it in, and then I left England, moved to California, and started making art about everything that I had just seen and done.  ANDREW: Right. Yeah.  PAIGE: And, it didn't hurt that in the city I was living with my elderly artist aunt, who is one of the most prolific artists I've ever met, and she's, you know, a full-time artist… ANDREW: Yeah. PAIGE: …the amount of work she made was just phenomenal, and the amount of exploration she was willing to do was phenomenal. So, getting in there with her and really cranking out work, and seeing what it looked like to really let yourself fail, at art, every day, was really inspirational, and really helped get my productivity levels up to the point where I was able to start my business and have things happening every day, and oh, it was such a journey, such a good time. ANDREW: [laughing] Yeah, it can't always be good, right, sometimes it's just like, ah, that was horrible, you know? PAIGE: [laughing] Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And sometimes, and sometimes like, I remember when I was creating my first deck, which was just a set of majors, and I was trying to do the High Priestess, and I was like… It was the one, like I think I did like 20 iterations of it before I finally realized what actually needed to go on, and I was like, oh, okay, that's the answer, I'm gonna now, now I can do it. And then once I started, something emerged, and it really was like a letting go, you know?  PAIGE: Yeah. ANDREW: For me, I was doing… The premise of my first deck is what happens just before what we're accustomed to seeing, and how does that influence and help us understand the card, right?  PAIGE: Oh, I love that. ANDREW: Why did the Fool leave his house, right? Why did the Emperor, what did—what does the Emperor do before they get on the throne, right? And what was the High Priestess doing before, you know, she sat there, you know, in contemplation, right? And, and I was, I kept trying to draw her face, and in the end, what I realized was that the thing that the High Priestess does, even though it's already such an inward card, that she's even more inward before that, you know, and so I ended up drawing the back of her facing her altar, and praying, and sitting, and contemplating spirit directly, right? It was just like, it was one of those things, and I was like, what does her face look like, what's her expression, why is she doing what she's doing, right? And then in the end it was like, I don't know, I have no idea what her face looks like. PAIGE: [laughs] ANDREW: You know? And it was that kind of giving that up that allowed it to unfold, to become what I thought was really great in the end, so.  PAIGE: Mmmhmm. That right there, that's it, that's the, that's one of, for me, the intersection between the fine art and the shamanism, really came to life, was, the shamanism allowed me to listen even more closely to the art that wanted to come out and not to impose my will as Creator, but to just let it come through me, and just to listen, and to treat it as a living spirit thing that wants to get physical form. It started to flow so much better, with my own tarot decks that I'm working on. Now it's not me Trying To Come Up with the Best Idea, I'm just letting it tell me what it is.  ANDREW: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Let me get my smarts on and I'll make something really great, right?  PAIGE: [laughing] Exactly! ANDREW: I look back at, there's an abandoned project that might get resurrected in a new form, but I started this sort of gnostic kabbalistic esoteric deck and it's not bad, like there's nothing wrong with it, but it wasn't entirely alive either… PAIGE: Yeah…. ANDREW: Because it was very, very structured and intellectual, you know, and— PAIGE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And there are other decks, I mean, I think the Toth deck, and like the Hermetic Tarot and stuff, they walk that line where they're still alive, and they have those layers of symbolism, but when I was working on this deck it never got there, right? It was very mathematical, in its way, you know, and that kind of didn't work out very well in the longer run of that arc, so, yeah, we'll see.  I'm curious how moving around has impacted your shamanic stuff, you know? Are you a shaman of place, or do the spirits just follow you wherever you go and adapt?  PAIGE: I'd say a little bit of both. The spirits of the land are very much an important part of my practice and my experience, and it's like… This is probably an imperfect metaphor, but it's a little bit like being non-monogamous in romantic relationships, which is my natural bent anyway, and so I have these deep important relationships with very different spirits of land, with the U.K., with San Francisco, with New England where I'm from and I'm living again, and, to have come back to New England, after having been to all these other places and really developed this intense deep relationship with those spirits of land has been wonderful.  The northern shore of Massachusetts is a very unusual place. I don't know exactly why, but it is, and everyone seems to agree, everyone who's been here, lived here, is like yup, this is weird, this place is weird, there's a lot of weirdos here, we're uniquely weird, but there's something about having left and come back with more shamanic knowledge that is ELECTRIC, and I'm still figuring that out, but I love all the spirits of land, and I maintain my identity as a traveler very strongly, so that I'm keeping the dialogue open between myself and those lands, and a big part of my regular practice involves obviously grounding here in the land and grounding everything that I'm doing, all the offerings that I make, all the engagements I have, are tapped into the land here and anchored in the land here, or the land wherever I am, and that's always the first thing I do, move to a new place, ground and anchor in that land, get to know what it feels like under the surface— ANDREW: Yeah.   PAIGE: —and I carry them with me in this way that's, I don't want to quite compare it to the Borg from Star Trek, but it's this sort of absorption— [laughing] ANDREW: Uh-huh. PAIGE: —into myself and into my practice that just feels right, and, it's like having friends all over the world, you know, I maintain those relationships even though it's long distance sometimes, I visit them when I can, I still communicate with them since I'm still here on Planet Earth and all those places are here on Planet Earth, I can still kind of long distance communicate, like “hey, what's up, California? how you doing? I'm good. How are you? Fine!” [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah. PAIGE: And seeding those relationships by physically mailing things there sometimes, you know, things to my people who are there, and it feels in a weird way like being a kind of secret agent, or something.  ANDREW: Mmm.  PAIGE: I'm not sure quite why, but I have that feeling of like, yeah, you know, I've got my, my agents in all the different places, and we're checking in, like, “How's the land doing? Oh, is it good? Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, I'll do some work for you long d-, okay, cool, cool, cool, yeah, we'll work on it, it's all happening, it's good, yeah!” and, I get a lot of loving flac from my mother about this. ANDREW: [laughing] Okay!  PAIGE: She likes to tease me about being what she calls a “serial obsessive.” You know, you get hyper-fixated on an interest and you just sort of absorb everything you can from it, you absorb it into your very being, and then you kind of like internalize the vitality of that place, that thing, whatever it is, and then you move on, you know like, all right, I absorbed San Francisco, next, next stop New York! What [garbled]… ANDREW: Ba ba ba ba! All of Brooklyn!  PAIGE: [laughing] ANDREW: So that you're like, it's like a spiritual Godzilla, just show up, eat the area, be like, ah, I got it, I'm ready, next! [laughing] PAIGE: [laughing] Yeah. ANDREW: That's fun. Yeah, I often, like, check in with the land, wherever I end up, you know?  PAIGE: Yeah.  ANDREW:  I mean, not always, it depends on where I am and what I'm doing. Like I was away this last weekend, but we were just doing so much structured stuff that I was like, I don't have the time to sleep enough, let alone like, connect to what's going on, but when I'm in other places, you know, definitely, you know, and like, when I was in China last year, ‘cause one of the first things I did the first night I arrived was like, I'm like, I feel so disorientated, I just need to, like, spend some time connecting with the earth here so I can be here and then do what I need to do for the time that I'm around and working and stuff, so, you know, yeah.  PAIGE: Oh yeah.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. I think it's interesting how spirits can kind of come and go, you know? Or like step forward and step back, you know?  PAIGE: Yeah, absolutely! Absolutely! And I've noticed the same thing happens with tarot decks. I work with a lot of different decks; I have a huge stack of them right over here on the floor and they will step forward or step back as needed. Sometimes Tarot of the Cat People just wants to be all up in my face, and that's the only deck I'll read with for weeks or months, and then they'll be like, all right, I've said what I needed to say right now, move on, and it will step back and it will sort of stop, you know, working for me kind of, like, okay, all right, next, and another deck will step forward and be like, now I want to work with you right now. Or there'll be two of them vying for attention at the same time. And it's the same with the rest of my spirits. They'll step forward, step back.  ANDREW: Do you feel the spirits of the cards, have a spirit?  PAIGE: Oh absolutely, yeah. I feel that each card has a spirit and that each deck has its own spirit, definitely, mmmhmm. And they're like people, as well, you know, sometimes you meet people and you instantly click and it's amazing, and sometimes you meet people and you're like, I just do not get you. I can't read you, I don't know what you're about, you are a mystery to me. And there are decks like that for me. I'll look at them and be like, mmm, do not know what you're sayin'. Can't understand a word of what you're trying to say. ANDREW: Yeah, I feel, I run into people who have that way of, or that experience, and it's never really been my experience, so I'm always very curious about it, because for me, I have one spirit that helps me with reading the cards… PAIGE: Mmmhmmm. ANDREW: And, they've been around for the whole time I've been working with cards, but over time they've basically been like, no no no, this kind of deck, no no no, that deck. You know? And, so there's been this sort of, well, literally my guide came forward one time and said, “if you would like to give good readings, then read with the Tarot de Marseilles. If you don't care, do whatever you like. But that's where you're going to be better.”  PAIGE: [laughing] ANDREW: And I was like, all right, and then it was this process of nailing down which deck was the most like the one that she read with when she was alive, and that was also a process of, okay, so it was the Marseilles, and then it was the Jean Noblet, and then it was this photo reproduction of the deck from the Bibliotechnique National in France that Joseph Peterson put out, and now she's like, that's, that is, it's not THE deck she had, but it is the closest that she thinks is left that I'll ever be able to get at.  PAIGE: That is fascinating!  ANDREW: And so, it's funny for me because, I mean I run a store, and I, you know, I teach lots of things, I deal with lots of different decks, kind of for other people and on other people's behalf, but for me, I'm kind of done.  PAIGE: Yeah! ANDREW: You know when Joseph's deck came out, you know, I just took three of them and put them in the drawer, on top of the one that I was already reading with, because I was like, that's it, I need to make sure I have enough forever, you know?  PAIGE: Mmmhmm, yeah!  ANDREW: Yeah.  PAIGE: Wow!  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. PAIGE: That's so cool!  ANDREW: So, with your approach though, do you feel like the decks themselves have an entity or a consciousness that you're interacting with? Or are they like the Borg, they're different units that are plugging into your central, you know, central shamanic hub as it were, and they're just kind of variable extensions of parts of your consciousness?  PAIGE: That's a great question! I feel it may be a little bit of both. Ultimately my experience of the decks is as these sort of entities, these spirit entities, but those entities themselves feel like a bit of an amalgamation, you know, that are made up of the unique spirit of that deck, the sort of personality of the deck, which itself is made up of each of the cards, and each card has its own entity and own personality and its own spiritual, yeah, sense of beingness, which may be slightly different or very different depending on the different decks, but each card has its [inaudible]. I can compare it to astrology in a way, you know you're looking at, everyone has the planet Mars in their chart, but each planet in a different sign has a different flavor, it feels different, it acts differently, it will come across a different way, it will interact with the rest of those planets and signs and houses in what ultimately equates to a unique personality, a unique expression of being.  ANDREW: Sure.  PAIGE: And, and yeah, that is very much how I encounter the decks, is like people, which is what we are, we're amalgamations of our parents, our lineage, everything we've ever done and seen, as well as our own unique flair and flavor.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. For sure.  PAIGE: Mmmhmm.  ANDREW: Yeah. Neat. Yeah, I'm always curious because, for me and my practice, there's a sort of distinction that I draw between what are sort of object concrete entities in their own right, and what are these sort of other things that are constructs, or topography, or convenient symbol and language that these entities or even parts of my consciousness or unconsciousness might sort of pop on to sort of deliver messages or frame the conversation, so I love sort of thinking about these things because I'm always very curious about what's, what it is that's going on when people are working in other styles or other approaches, you know? So. Yeah.  PAIGE: I suppose my style is very animistic, which has always been my world view and always been my experience of the world, even as a child, things are alive, and they talk to me, and they engage with me, and as a child it upset me very much when people didn't treat objects with the same respect that they treated people, certain objects, anyway. I don't know if it was across the board, all objects, all the time, but for the most part, things that I could tell were, had a force of some kind attached to them. It would deeply upset me when people did not treat them that way, but of course, as a child I did not have the vocabulary to share that with other children, explain to them why it upset me that you disrespected me and this object by cavalierly tossing it about. “How dare you, child?”  ANDREW: “How dare you, that rock, it had a lot of things to say!”  PAIGE: [laughing] “No, I'll give you another rock!” “Yeah, but that was my friend, that rock was my friend! You threw my friend away!” [outraged sound] I remember one time as a child, we were, our class was on a field trip to the high school. ANDREW: Mmmhmm.  PAIGE: And it was shortly after the movie The Indian in the Cupboard had come out, and the VHS tapes came with a little plastic Indian from the movie, the replica, and I just was captivated. This little plastic man was like a friend to me, and I carried him in my pocket everywhere I went, and one of the bullies in my class, we were in the bathroom, all taking our bathroom break, and she grabbed it out of my hands and threw it in the air just as someone flushed a toilet and came out of the stall and down it went, and was flushed away. And all of us just stood there with our mouths open like, I can't believe that just happened. What are the odds that that's where it would land? And I had no, I was completely flabbergasted, I had no words to explain the depth of the hurt that had just been done to me. They were like, I'll buy you a new one, whatever; I'm like, no, you don't understand, that guy, that was my guy! ANDREW: That was the one. PAIGE: That was the one! I don't care if it's an identical plastic mold; it's not the same.  ANDREW: Yeah. And there are those things, right?  PAIGE: Yeah.  ANDREW: It's funny, it's interesting to me too, because there are those things that I work with and use spiritually, you know, like I often carry like a crystal or other things that I'm kind of working with at a given time, and those things definitely, some of them, they all have an aliveness to them that I work with for sure. Some of them I get so attached to, and some of them, when they end up going away, I'm just like, ah, whatever. Like, you know, eh, your time is done, you wanted to be elsewhere or what have you, right, and I'm like, ah, it's fine. And then other things, like when they kind of, you know, get shuffled somewhere, or you know, like take them out and realize it's time to have a break, and then they resurface, and it's like, wow, how did I ever even stop working with this energy, you know? I used to work with St. Expedite a lot… PAIGE: Oh, yeah!  ANDREW: And I recently found, I mean I always kind of knew where it was, but, recently sort of came across a painting that I had done of him. PAIGE: Cool. ANDREW: And immediately it started talking to me. And I was like—and it wasn't mad, it wasn't like, dude, you've been hiding me away, it's like all right, I'm ready, you're ready, let's go, let's do some more stuff together. I'm like, all right, let's do it.  PAIGE: I love that. Mmmhmm!  ANDREW: Yeah.  PAIGE: That is a blessing of getting older, was learning like, okay, I might misplace this, but it will come back when the time is right.  ANDREW: Yeah.  PAIGE: As a child, you know, not knowing that this sort of totemic energy attached to that toy, very, was, could possibly return to me in another form, that it was not intrinsically tied to this little plastic molded toy. As a child, you don't have the context for that. But as an adult spiritual practitioner realizing okay, you know, que sera sera.  ANDREW: Yeah, there's not only one way in which that energy can come through to you, right?  PAIGE: Mmmhmm, exactly.  ANDREW: There's not only one place or one kind or one…yeah, for sure.  PAIGE: And it might be in the best interest for it to step back for awhile, for both of you, you know, and then come back again and have you realize, oh wow! Yeah! Your value is so important to me—and having that time away really makes you feel that.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. For sure. Yeah. Do you do a lot of plant ally stuff too? Do you have plant allies that you're working with?  PAIGE: Oh, yes, oh yes.  ANDREW: Uh-huh?  PAIGE: I've always, it's always been, it's not my greatest strength, and it's been a source of great frustration to me, my whole life, because my mother is a gardener and she has quite the green thumb. She can make anything grow. And I do not seem to have inherited that gift. So the living plants in my life that I work with tend to be wild. Wild plants are my main spirit allies. And as well, I work with tea. Tea is my guy. The plant, the [garbled] sense is plant as well as tea [garbled] and other herbs brewed as tea both with the tea plant and on their own and that's been something that has always been tied to my magical and spiritual practice. The year that I really got involved in witchcraft, as a young person, was the same year that I got introduced to tea.  ANDREW: Right.  PAIGE: Almost within a few months of each other.  ANDREW: Yeah.  PAIGE: And it's, they were very present, as well, in my shaman sickness. I had ingested some spirit allies, some plant spirit allies that really were carrying the physical aspect of the illness for me, and shifting that perspective. And it's something that I've been deepening in the past couple of years, but is endlessly fascinating to me, and part of what's helped deepen that is creating friendships with some really talented plant shamans and plant workers. In unpacking, I just uncovered my flying ointments from Sarah Anne Lawless, which are some of my favorite tools to work with. It fascinates me the way that plants affect different people different ways, depending on your body chemistry. I know people who cannot drink tea after maybe 2 or 3 pm because the caffeine will keep them up.  ANDREW: Yeah.  PAIGE: I can drink a pot of black tea at midnight and be fine.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm.  PAIGE: No problem.  ANDREW: And that's also not uncommon among people who have that ADHD kind of thing, right?  PAIGE: Yeah exactly, it almost works the opposite, sometimes, or it's just like meh, no problem.  ANDREW: Whatevs.  PAIGE: Caffeine? Don't know her. Never met her.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. [laughs] PAIGE: [laughing] ANDREW: That's awesome. It's really interesting how we all have places or kinds of things that open more easily to us, you know?  PAIGE: Yeah.  ANDREW: Like the, whether it's a particular plant, or whether it's, you know, plants versus minerals versus you know, in your case, pigments and water, versus you know, whatever, right? I think that we have these sort of natural inclinations, and, you know, I mean, just like in our astrology charts, sort of sorting them out and finding out where those fortes and good places to start and so on can be so helpful, you know?  PAIGE: Oh yeah, absolutely, and one of the things I do often with clients when I'm working with clients who are seeking to understand their own spiritual gifts better, is looking at your childhood. What were you drawn to as a child? For me, it was animals. Animals was my jam. And so now, as an adult, I find not coincidentally that a lot of the shamanic work I do is animal spirit totems, helping spirits who are specifically animals. Do a lot of animal retrieval, and it's one of the easiest things for me to do, it takes, it can take maybe 30 seconds, to go on a shamanic journey and retrieve an animal helping spirit. It is such an easy flow for me, whereas plants and the language of plants is something much more private and personal that I really have to consciously work on and deepen. Except for that small handful of plant allies that are just like, you, me, let's do this. ANDREW: Let's go! Ride or die!  PAIGE: [laughing] Exactly!  ANDREW: Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, I am one of those people, I have a very green thumb, so I can grow all sorts of stuff and you know. Actually, the pomegranate plant that we have at the store just grew its first pomegranate, which was super exciting, so you know, it's, yeah. Definitely good, you know? And I love to, I spent a lot of time in my childhood, I lived sort of on the edge of town where it was sort of mostly forest between our place and the next place… PAIGE: Lovely. ANDREW: And so, I spent a lot of time in the woods, just kicking around, playing games with my friends, or just hanging out, you know? And it's something I love to do now and near the store there's nice ravines that run through Toronto… PAIGE: Mmm.  ANDREW: And I would just go in there, and hang out, and stuff happens, it's wonderful, and they just start talking, and you know, yeah.  PAIGE: Oh, yeah. The forest! Oh, what a magical place! That's been one of my favorite things about coming back to New England, the woods of New England are really important for me.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm.  PAIGE: Really special. Today happens to be 19 years to the day since the first group ritual I ever did.  ANDREW: Wow.  PAIGE: Blue moon, January 1999, I invited a couple of girls from school over to my house, and one of them, her mother was, must have been Wiccan, or something, and she kind of taught us how to do your basic circle casting, calm the quarters, kind of thing. We had a little ritual. We went around the circle, went around the table, took turns saying nice things about each other and then after some round blue frosted scones, my mother drove us to the woods, and we climbed this abandoned stone tower that's in the middle of the woods by the golf course in my home town. And I have some photographs, I'm so glad I have actual photographs of us on that tower, under the moon with the moon in the background, these little girls, having a great time, and those woods really held it and anchored it, for that to be the ending of our first ritual ever. And we loved it so much we were like, you know what, let's just, let's do this again next month? On the full moon? How about that? For a bunch of 11-year-olds, that was a pretty good commitment. We managed it for maybe six solid months, meeting every full moon and those woods really were the catalyst. They were the… ANDREW: Amazing.  PAIGE: …the container for that. It was so—mmm. There's something about being here and then the trees of this land that's just like yep. These are like my grandparents.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm.  PAIGE: They took care of me! Thanks, guys!  ANDREW: [laughs] I love it. I definitely love it! So if you're listening, go find your trees, go hang out with them! [garbled, both talking at once] Yeah, spend some time with it, right?  PAIGE: Mmmhmm.  ANDREW: Yeah. The last few years whenever I go to New York and go to Reader's Studio, which is a conference there, at the place where they were having it, there were these cherry trees out front, and they'd usually be blossoming then, so that would be just like all the flowers on the ground… PAIGE: Love it.  ANDREW: And, you know. After, like a few days with like 200 other people doing readings around you and stuff, I'd just be like, overwhelmed! And I would just go out there and, you know, stand there and, last year, I was standing under the tree and the wind came and swirled around me and lifted all those petals up and… PAIGE: Ohhhhh.  ANDREW: There was like this sort of bath of those flowers and the tree and I had my hands on it just grounding myself and stuff. I'm like, I'm ready for more, let's go! You know? It can be so wonderful.  PAIGE: Oh! That's beautiful. Oh yeah.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Well. It has been delightful chatting with you. For people who want to follow your orbit and see your art and other wonderful things that you're up to, where should they go? Where are you hanging out online?  PAIGE: Well, you can find me on social media, @tarotandtea. You can also find me on Instagram @paigezaferiou, just my name, and at paigezaferiou.com. And that's Paige with an I, and Zaferiou is Z A F E R I O U, and you can remember to spell that because it has all the vowels in alphabetical order, A E I O U.  ANDREW: And we'll put a link in the show notes in case “it spells just like it sounds” doesn't quite work out.  PAIGE: [laughing] ANDREW: Awesome. Well thank you so much Paige, it's been wonderful.  PAIGE: Thank you so much for having me, Andrew, it's been such a pleasure.  ANDREW: Thank you, as always, for listening. I hope you've really enjoyed it. A big thanks to the lovely human beings who have put some wonderful reviews on Itunes for the podcast. Please do consider supporting the Patreon. You know I sound like a PBS ad, but seriously, even a dollar helps. It all adds up towards being able to make all sorts of exciting things happen, both for yourself and for others. So head on over to Patreon.com/thehermitslamp, or use the link in the show notes. Talk to you soon. Bye bye. 

In this special pumpkin spice edition, Erin and Mel discuss Her Halloween Treat by Tiffany Reisz. This book has everything - mountain cabins, crisp leaves, flannel shirts, and a bearded handyman who wants you to tell him exactly how he should touch you. Mmmhmm yes, please.

Today in Brooklyn is the annual Afro Punk Festival.  So on the show we’re featuring a ton of great acts that will be at the festival including Sinkane, Blitz the Ambassador, and even Solange!  Head to Downtown Brooklyn to check it out.  We’ve also got some great new tunes from fan favorites Widowspeak and Dent May.  Stay tuned! 00:00 - DJ Madalyn 01:41 - Nice Dreams - Son Little 05:50 - Off to Sea Once More - Macy Gray 10:48 - Sex Karma (feat. Solange Knowles) - Of Montreal 14:50 - Mmmhmm (feat. Thundercat) - Flying Lotus 19:04 - DJ Madalyn 19:29 - Runnin’ - Sinkane 21:55 - Gold and a Pager - The Cool Kids 25:40 - Nothing to Lose (feat. Kate Mattison) - Blitz the Ambassador 29:57 - DJ Madalyn 30:28 - When I Tried - Widowspeak 35:08 - 90210 - Dent May 38:22 - Fort Funston - SOAR 42:14 - Photograph - A Giant Dog 44:58 - DJ Madalyn 45:35 - Transcendent - Baby In Vain 49:30 - Strange Trees - Thomas Mudrick 55:08 - Lines - Dang Clets 58:49 - My Replacement - Dustin Lovelis 62:45 - Immigrant Boogie - Ghost Poet 65:22 - DJ Madalyn 65:45 - Plot Devices - And How 68:57 - Wasted Mystic - Terry Crimes 74:06 - Flow - Crooked Colours 78:52 - Detroit Rebelltion of ’67 - Detroit Rebellion 82:28 - Shouting at the Dark - The Mynabirds 86:37 - DJ Madalyn 87:02 - My Man - Valley Queen 92:14 - You Took Your Time (feat. King Krule) - Mount Kimbie 97:25 - Chlorine - Title Fight 100:33 - I Died So I Could Haunt You - Stars 103:33 - DJ Madalyn 103:53 - All Her Colours - Pick a Piper 108:11 - Evil - Grinderman 111:04 - We Are The Men You’ll Grow To Love Soon - Let’s Wrestle 114:01 - DJ Madalyn 114:53 - Bone Jam - JEFF the Brotherhood 118:14 - Finish

Mmmhmm.  Let's lay down some new neural tracks with today's tapping meditation on manifesting success by taking care of the small stuff. LOVING the difference you are making in the world, Jen The post [Ep. 93] Meditation/Tapping – How to Move Mountains One Small Piece at a Time appeared first on The Conscious Entrepreneur.

Can we be righteous in a wrong way? Mmmhmm. The Sermon on the Mount opens up some fissures in how we live out our righteousness before others. Listen as Pastor Jared Moore reveals a righteousness through Jesus that is marked with mercy, humility, and availability. Sermon delivered on 10/18/15

Red Universe, ce sont aussi des livres numériques et des thèmes musicaux originaux ! Venez découvrir le site pour enrichir votre expérience de cette grande saga. Télécharger l'épisode Mp3⎮⎮S'abonner « Monsieur Loyal ici présent, s'il ne parle pas bien notre langue, nous comprend donc parfaitement. Nous venons d'assister à une représentation imagée de quelque chose que nos amis estiment d'une grande importance, au point d'avoir créé un vortex dans l'espace pour nous y faire assister. J'ai raison jusque là, capitaine ? Mmmhmm.. C'tinuez gamin, c'bien…. » Répondit simplement le gros officier. La solution ne viendra visiblement pas de lui. Adénor lança donc le débat : « MMhmm. …En essayant de trouver le rôle de chaque intervenant ? Pas bête Adénor. Les jongleurs sont les plus simples à trouver. Ce sont les humains et les ennemis. Quoi ? Des humains ? Et… des ennemis ? » Il restait à mettre Phil dans le secret. Fabio entendit l'esprit d'Adénor effectuer les connexions manquantes : même si tout n'était pas encore clair, elle avait déjà remonté, de son coté, presque tout le puzzle. « J'ai eu l'occasion, peu avant la révolution Castiks, d'effectuer des recherches sur l'histoire de l'Humanité. Dans le cadre de… mes fonctions d'alors, je suis remonté plusieurs siècles dans le passé, à une époque lointaines, précédant l'arrivée de la royauté. L'enquête nous… m'avait amené dans des endroits dissimulés depuis si longtemps, qu'il en étaient oubliés des hommes. Et cela raconte une lutte pour la liberté entre les humains et ceux que l'on nommait alors les ennemis, des êtres aux pouvoirs mentaux visiblement hors-normes, peut-être même supérieurs à ce que l'on connait actuellement. C'est probablement à cela que nous venons d'assister. » Il laissa les deux amoureux digérer l'information. Lui-même se remémorait les souterrains, le vieux coffre et la carte mémoire, son intrusion dans la tête du Roi de MaterOne, et enfin l'incroyable cathédrale sous-marine. Sauf que derrière tout cela, revenait un nom. La dénomination d'une puissance, sans limite, venue aider les humains. C'est cette force que Poféus avait tenté de trouver et maitriser, dans l'espoir fou de dominer la race humaine. (*) « … Les Titans. WWHWHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAYyyaaaaaaaAaaheeeeeAAAAAA »Hurla Loyal en sautillant et tournant sur lui-même. Visiblement, ils étaient sur la bonne voie. « Tu veux bien nous expliquer ? C'est quoi les Titans ? Je l'ignore. D'après les rapports que j'ai pu lire, certains les auraient rencontré, mais je ne voulais pas y croire à l'époque. Les descriptions… ne collaient pas, on dira. » Il était tombé dans l'inconscience durant tout le contact, mais pas inactif : on prétendait même qu'il les avait dirigé ! Une force, composée de millions de petits objets translucides aux pouvoirs inimaginables. À l'époque, il avait refusé de faire le lien avec eux, ceux qui l'avaient nourri si puissamment de leurs pouvoirs. Ils n'étaient pas des êtres de mort, seulement des sources de pouvoir, n'est-ce pas ? Sauf qu'après tout ce qui venait de se dérouler, depuis le vortex jusqu'au spectacle, et cet incident où ses « amis » lui avaient montré un visage complètement différent, il ne savait plus. « Les animaux : l'éléphant-melotte et le tigre rouge. Ce sont les Titans, c'est cela, Loyal ? WWHWHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAYyyaaaaaaaAaaheeeeeAAAAAA Et… c'est VOUS, ces fameux Titans. » L'autre s'arrêta, le visage se déformant sous un sourire bien trop grand, et Monsieur Loyal effectua une longue et belle révérence devant le mental blond. Puis il releva la tête, croisant leurs regards. Sans en comprendre exactement la raison, Fabio n'aima pas ce qu'il y lut. Mais alors pas du tout. « Alleeer, tous! Vous a'êtez pas en si bon ch'min ! Poursuiv'ez. C'qui les aut'es ? Il y a une ligne, une frontière, quelque chose qui les empêche de… Votre dimension ! » Rugit Fabio, les dents serrées, il venait de se dresser. Son regard toujours croisé avec celui de Loyal, le jeune homme terminait son apprentissage du monde, ce monde qu'il avait toujours tant cru comprendre, qu'il pensait maîtriser. Mais en fin de compte, chaque pas qu'il faisait, dans cette relique du passé qu'était le Positron, lui prouvait qu'il n'avait réellement été qu'un jouet, une marionnette dans les mains des Titans. Magellone tenta de calmer le mental. Mais il se rassit brusquement, d'un coup. Comme si la pesanteur était soudain devenue plus forte. Fabio n'avait levé qu'un doigt. Ses pouvoirs étaient toujours présent et, visiblement, on lui laissait le droit de les utiliser. « Loyal, vous avez besoin de la trapéziste pour traverser les dimensions, et du singe pour… pour perturber les lois de la nature. Vous voulez reproduire ce qui s'est passé aux origines de Materone, VOUS VOULEZ REJOINDRE LES HOMMES !! » Le bourdonnement de la clef à molette boursouflée reprit alors du volume au-dessus d'eux. Toute la piste, plus encore, toute la scène, incluant les artistes, les portes délirantes, les estrades vides pour le public et même le toit du chapiteau, entra soudain dans la lumière noire. Loyal se redressa, Magellone tremblait, Adénor et Phil se préparaient à tout, Fabio était fou de colère. Il avait été trahi, depuis le début. Ces êtres poursuivaient un but. Un but qui n'avait rien de noble, rien de sage. Non ce n'étaient pas des animaux calmes et paisibles qui diffusaient leurs pouvoirs aux hommes ou aux ennemis. S'il n'avait pas croisé le regard de Loyal, s'il n'y avait pas lu cette certitude, cette lueur que l'on ne retrouve que dans l'oeil du chasseur, il n'aurait pas compris. « Mais alors qui sont ces deux là ? Comment trouver la trapéziste et le singe ? C'est la raison de tout ce qui vient d'arriver Phil. C'est peut-être aussi la raison de l'Exode, de la révolution Castiks, qui sait ? Depuis combien de temps nous manipulez-vous ? Nous les humains, seuls et abandonnés, n'ayant rien d'autre à croiser que votre reflet de l'autre coté du rideau infranchissable. Vous n'avez jamais eu qu'un seul but que vous poursuivez, inlassablement. Yahaaaa… OUUUUUOOONNNNNIIIIIIIIIIIII ???! » Hurla Loyal, l'air plus amusé que revanchard. Fabio traduisit pour ses compagnons : Et où sont-ils ? Soutenez Reduniverse.fr Prod: PodShowsRéa: RaoulitoRelecture: Arthur R, Icarion, Kwaamnarration: IcaryonRôles:Phil: LorendilFabio: ZylannMagellone: RaoulitoAdénor: AnnaCompo: IanMontage: Ackim

Red Universe, ce sont aussi des livres numériques et des thèmes musicaux originaux ! Venez découvrir le site pour enrichir votre expérience de cette grande saga. Télécharger l'épisode Mp3⎮⎮S'abonner Le blanc. Partout. Mais autre chose également. Fabio ne pouvait s'empêcher d'apprécier la vision d'un monde aux valeurs inversées : le noir y était la lumière, le blanc, l'obscurité. Pour un être hors des normes communes tel que lui, le concept était plaisant. Il se tenait aux cotés de Phil Goud et d'Adénor Kerichi, assez proche également du Capitaine Magellone pour sentir les relents de transpiration émanant de l'ouverture de son gros scaphandre. Tous suivaient les pérégrinations de la silhouette d'un « Monsieur Loyal » caricatural, qui voltigeait, mimait et hurlait des élucubrations incompréhensibles sur une piste de cirque dessinée, esquissée plutôt, à grands reflets de noirceur sur un blanc immaculé. Cette scène ubuesque n'était que l'aboutissement d'un long périple qui avait commencé lorsque leur Transporteur fût absorbé par un vortex à l'intérieur même de la Passe de Magellone. Celle-ci portait le nom de l'officier supérieur du premier vaisseau à y plonger pour ne jamais en revenir, le Capitaine Magellone, son voisin d'estrade. Et pourtant, l'histoire remontait à maintenant plus de cinq siècles. Sans en connaitre la finalité, Fabio, le mental le plus puissant connu, avait pu déduire certaines pièces du puzzle : les petits êtres translucides qui donnaient leurs pouvoirs aux mentaux étaient derrière tout ce stratagème. Ils l'avaient amené ici, ainsi que ses voisins, dans le but qu'il puisse, grâce à ses facultés, leur permettre d'apparaitre dans cette autre dimension, à l'intérieur du Positron. Le vaisseau légendaire de Magellone semblait être le point de rendez-vous choisi par les petits êtres pour leur premier contact « direct » avec l'Humanité. Comme si cela n'était pas assez complexe, toute cette suite d'évènements était ponctuée de références improbables aux aspects délirants. Que dire de ce monde aux valeurs inversées, de cette soit-disante piste de cirque éclairée de lumière noire par une clef à molette boursouflée jouant le rôle d'un projecteur ? Elle-même résultait de l'agglomération de milliards de petits êtres translucides qui s'étaient jetés les uns contre les autres, se compressant de manière improbable en cette forme qui n'était pas inconnue à Fabio : il s'agissait du dernier être ayant pu l'accompagner jusqu'ici. Dire que, naïvement, il le pensait son ami il y avait encore quelques heures… Bref, tout naviguait dans un surnaturel grotesque et incompréhensible où le fait de souffrir les hurlements fous d'une silhouette ricanante n'était qu'une facette parmi d'autre. L'individu fit soudain une pause dans ses acrobaties, comme s'il avait suivi les réflexions du mental blond et en attendait la fin. Il prit une nouvelle pose théâtrale, levant bien haut son bras libre, pour ensuite le tendre vers ce qui devrait être l'entrée de la piste. Elle prenait la forme d'un espace séparant deux grosses colonnes que l'on devinait décorées de moulures et autres masques sculptés en bas-relief. Enfin… d'après ce que la lumière noire en laissait deviner, car cette dernière ne se focalisait jamais plus d'une seconde sur une position, rendant impossible une vision précise de la scène. « Gniiiiiiiiii….. YAHAMAAAAALAAAAAGOYAAAAAAAA !!!! » Hurla Loyal en se courbant en deux. L'omniprésent orgue de barbarie reprit soudain de plus belle, alors que des visions à la limite du cauchemar pénétrèrent sur la piste au rythme de la musique. Pouvait-on appeler ces choses… des animaux ? Peut-être des caricatures animales, ou des simulacres de créatures, mais elles provoquaient bien plus la peur que l'attendrissement. « Mais c'est un tig'e ‘ouge, ma pa'ole !! » S'extasia Magellone, tel un enfant. Apparemment l'officier n'avait plus vu de tigre rouge depuis bien longtemps. Ceux-ci avaient normalement des yeux plus petits et placés aux bons endroits du visage. Ici, l'un d'eux sortait par la bouche, collé sur la langue. Seule la couleur rougeâtre, visible par une légère teinte du cuir de l'animal sous la lumière noire, faisait penser à l'espèce originale. Le « félin » avança doucement, poussant des feulements muets, comme s'il ne savait pas produire de son. « AAAAAYYYeeeeee! AAAAAIIIIIIFOOOOOOOO-EULLLLoTE ! » Venait-il de dire un « éléphant-melotte » ? Fabio plissa les yeux, tentant de faire coïncider ce qu'il savait de cette espèce sur la grosse forme se glissant dans l'entrée. Le mastodonte passait tout juste. Malgré une seconde trompe incomplète sortant de l'oreille, et une incompréhensible sorte de feuille de palmier en place de queue, la forme générale et la couleur bleu-gris rappelaient effectivement l'éléphant-melotte. Intéressant. Donc le son de crécelle éructant de la bouche de Monsieur Loyal se voulait une tentative pour communiquer dans notre langage. « Bon Dieu, mais tu vas a'êter de fai'e tout ce bruit ? Rega'de et p'ofite du spectacle plutôt ! En tous cas moi, j'ai po souvent l'occasion de m'amuser, alors j'veux du silence dans la salle ! Je pensais simplement, Capitaine. Vous devriez apprendre à focaliser votre attention, cela aide beaucoup.C'est que… » Il ne poursuivit pas. De toutes façons, il était clair que Magellone n'était pas un habitué des techniques mentales. Encore une information utile, on ne s'improvisait pas expert de cet art psychique si facilement, n'est-ce pas, Capitaine ?L'autre ronchonna quelque mot grossier inaudible puis ouvrit grand les yeux, tendant soudain ses deux index vers le plafond. Tous levèrent la tête. De petites flèches noires traversaient la voûte, comme des chauves-souris pénétrant une nouvelle cavité et avides de l'explorer. « Mais qu'est ce que c'est que çà ? » Ne pût s'empêcher de demander Phil, serrant la main de sa compagne. Elle se tourna alors vers lui, le regard tendre. « Mmmhmm… » Ce qui fit toussoter Fabio et faire éclater Magellone d'un grand rire. « Quoi ? Mais, heu chérie… Qu'a-t-elle… dit ? Disons qu'elle sera heureuse que vous vous… retrouviez. Ta.. manière de demander les choses… lui plait beaucoup. Voilà. »Le lieutenant regarda la femme qu'il aimait. Les yeux de celle-ci étaient rieurs, cela faisait longtemps qu'elle ne s'était plus montrée sous ce jour là. « Elle a aussi ajouté qu'il s'agissait de deux voltigeurs, ce qui est juste ! Capitaine, vous écoutez les pensées de tout de monde ? Comment ?! Mmmhmm ?! »Rugissant en même temps, les deux amoureux fixèrent l'officier. Le gros bonhomme en fût distrait de sa contemplation des trapézistes qui sillonnaient l'espace au dessus d'eux. Il sourit bêtement, n'ayant visiblement pas de réponse toute faite à fournir. Fabio décida de suspendre momentanément l'acte d'accusation, la priorité étant ailleurs. « Ne vous inquiétez pas tous les deux, ce n'est que… momentané. Ha ? Il semblerait que nous ne soyons pas encore au bout de nos surprises ! Regardez le sol de la piste. » Effectivement, une ligne droite creusait la surface meuble ( sablonneuse, peut-être ? ) de part et d'autre de la piste. Les deux tracés se joignirent juste entre les jambes de Monsieur Loyal qui suivait l'opération avec un grand intérêt. Celui-ci hurla de plus belle : « CCCAAAAAA…. PIIiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii!!!!!! » Puis il reparti d'un rire dément. Oui… C'est parti. »Murmura Fabio dans un petit sourire énigmatique. Soutenez Reduniverse.frProd: PodShowsRéa: RaoulitoRelecture: Arthur R, Icarionnarration: CoupieRôles:Phil: LorendilFabio: ZylannAdénor: AnnaMagellone: RaoulitoMr Loyal: AngelusCompo: IanMontage: Bleknoir

Red Universe, ce sont aussi des livres numériques et des thèmes musicaux originaux ! Venez découvrir le site pour enrichir votre expérience de cette grande saga. Télécharger l'épisode Mp3⎮⎮S'abonner Phil Goud n'arrivait pas à trouver le sommeil. Comme souvent dans ces cas-là, le plafond devenait un terrain de recherches et de découvertes sans fin où la moindre aspérité, boulon ou toile d'araignée était un continent à explorer. Vivagel pompait doucement ses pattes avant contre son torse, le contemplant de ses yeux mi-clos. Il en fut récompensé par une série de caresses tout à fait à son goût. Le lieutenant regardait, pensif, le gros chat roux onduler, se trémousser et faire mille manières à chaque passage de la main de son maître. « Il ne doit pas y avoir tant de chats ayant voyagé comme toi. Quelque part, tu dois être une star chez tes congénères, hein ? » L'autre ronronna de plus belle en clignant plusieurs fois des yeux, il semblait répondre Si tu savais… Retour vers le plafond. Phil ne doutait pas qu'une bonne partie de la population du transporteur devait, plus ou prou, être réfractaire au sommeil. Certes, ils avaient eu une chance insensée ( et encore, était-ce une chance ? ) de survivre à la sortie inattendue de la Passe… Mais comment rentrer ? Magellone, lui-même, reconnaissait à mi-mots être ici depuis très longtemps. Devrait-on s'habituer à manger des cubes nutritifs ? Vivagel se redressa alors, s'étira puis sauta par terre, s'éloignant tranquillement vers une pièce adjacente où Sa Majesté avait installé ses quartiers de nuit. Il gratifia tout le monde d'un inhabituel miaulement profond qui résonna dans la chambre. Phil serra les dents, il détestait quand le chat s'amusait à les réveiller ainsi pour son simple plaisir. Adénor se retourna, dans un demi-sommeil, sur un murmure interrogatif. « Ce n'est rien chérie, rendors-toi. C'est juste le chat qui fait des siennes. En fait, justement, je voulais plutôt vous suggérer de vous lever. »Alors que Phil sursautait, Adénor avait déjà bondi et jetait la couverture du lit sur la silhouette qui venait de parler depuis l'encadrement de la porte. Roulant au sol, elle attrapa une de ses béquilles et se préparait à l'utiliser tel un harpon quand elle s'immobilisa, comme paralysée. La voix de Fabio s'éleva de nouveau. « Tout doux, madame la guerrière. Je suis navré de m'introduire ici sans prévenir, mais il fallait que je vienne discrètement… Hemm… Zoé, puis-je te libérer sans me faire transpercer par… ta béquille ? Mhmmm. » Alors que le mental libérait la jeune femme de son étreinte psychique, il fit signe à Phil de ne pas crier ni émettre aucun son, percevant la colère qui émanait du Lieutenant. « Je vous dois quelques explications, j'en conviens. Le temps nous manque malheureusement. Sachez seulement que j'ai une sérieuse piste quand à la vraie raison de notre présence, j'entend tout le transporteur, dans cette dimension. Et je vais avoir besoin de vous. Nous allons devoir déjouer la surveillance de toute la garde du vaisseau et encourir une belle colère d'Arlington, mais… » Il regarda tour à tour Adénor et Phil, puis leur fit un clin d'oeil. « … Une petite aventure, cela ne vous manque pas ? Faites-moi confiance, les amis, celle-ci sera une des plus belles. » Avait-il réussit, comme il l'espérait, à la gagner, cette confiance ? Son choix de se révéler à eux, toute la machination près du compresseur trans-dimensionnel, ces semaines à les chouchouter et gagner leur estime et leur reconnaissance ? Là où ils allaient, il ne serait pas question de les y diriger par le bout du nez, lui-même ne savait pas si ses pouvoirs le suivrait là-bas. Non, le couple allait devoir le suivre de plein gré, même lui apporter toute l'assistance possible. Et puis bon, on allait présenter Phil à des hôtes de marque tout de même. « Bonjour M'sieur-dame, c't'un plaisir de vous rencont'er. Je suis Auguste Magellone, le capitaine du Posit'on ! Capitaine Magellone ? Mais… Comment êtes-vous arrivé là ? »Dans un recoin du spatioport de l'immense transporteur, Phil et Adénor, guidés par Fabio, venaient d'être inexplicablement accueillis par l'homme censé être sous bonne garde à l'infirmerie. Phil hésitait sur la conduite à tenir entre le respect militaire et la bonne blague de bar. « Bof, vous savez mon ga's, les vieux loups de l'espace comme moi, on les range pas dans une boite si facilement ! Etes-vous p'êts pour le voyage ? Mmmhmm ? Gné ? Que dis la bonne dame ? Hum… Heu, Madame Adénor, ici présente, vous demande où nous allons. Permettez-moi de répondre, Capitaine. Il s'agit du Positron, ce sera notre destination. Je vous propose donc de tous monter à bord de la navette ici présente, j'en ai pour quelques minutes et je vous rejoins. Phil, peux-tu prendre les commandes, et faire le checking de départ ? Capitaine Magellone, si vous pouviez assister notre ami ? » Et Fabio s'éloigna du petit groupe, se glissant avec souplesse entre les recoins obscurs du grand hangar. Soutenez Reduniverse.frProd: PodShowsRéa: RaoulitoRelecture: Arthur R, IcarionNarration: CoupieRôles:Magellone : RaoulitoFabio Ouli: ZylannPhil Goud: LorendilAdénor: nnaCompo: IanMontage: Andropovitch