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Did you know oak supports over 2,300 species of wildlife? Discover this and more fascinating facts in our episode dedicated to the nation's favourite tree. We join Trust experts, Jules and Kate, at Londonthorpe Woods, near Grantham, to find some fascinating growths on oak trees, known as galls, and learn why hunks of deadwood are so important.  We then visit the star of the show and 'Lincolnshire's best kept secret' - the astonishing 1,000-year-old Bowthorpe Oak. It's one of 12 amazing oaks in the running for 2024 Tree of the Year. Which one will you vote for? Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.  Adam: Well, in this podcast, we're looking at the Woodland Trust's Tree of the Year competition, which is all about oaks and is on a quest to find the nation's favourite one. And there are lots to choose from. There is the Elephant Oak in the New Forest, the Queen Elizabeth Oak in West Sussex, the Darwin Oak in Shropshire, the Capon Oak on the Scottish Borders and plenty of others to choose from across Wales, Somerset, County Fermanagh, Cheshire and well, lots of other places as well. And you can vote for your favourite oak by going to the shortlist of them at the voting site woodlandtrust.org.uk/vote, so that is woodlandtrust.org.uk/vote and we'll repeat that again at the end of this podcast.   Well, today I'm going to see one of the oaks in contention for the Tree of the Year, the Bowthorpe Oak in Bourne, in Lincolnshire, a tree which has a hollow interior and had previously, that interior had been fitted with seats and had been used as a dining room for 20 people in the past, 20 people! It must have been an enormous oak and that's not a practice I think that's recommended these days. Well, certainly not. But nonetheless it's a great oak which has played a great big part in the local landscape and is much loved, not just in the UK but attracts plenty of visitors from abroad as well. Now, oaks have an amazingly important part in our culture and in days gone by were, I think, central in Druid folklore, for instance, in fact one amazing fact I have learnt making this podcast is that the name Druid comes from druer, the Celtic for oak for the word oak and wid means to know, so Druid means oak-knower, so there's a good fact for you. Anyway, enough of me. I'm off to meet some people who know all about oaks and unusually I am not starting by a tree. So, unusually, we're starting in a car and I'm joined by two women from the Woodland Trust. So first of all, introduce yourselves.  Kate: I'm Kate Lewthwaite. I am citizen science manager at the Woodland Trust.  Adam: Wonderful. And our driver for the day is...  Jules: Hi, I'm Jules Acton. I'm a fundraiser with the Woodland Trust.  Adam: So we're going to look at a few oaks today, one of which is actually in the running to be the Tree of the Year, and you can vote on that still and I'll give you details a little later on on how to do that. But first of all, you were telling me that you have a little present for me. I always like to start the day with a little present.  Jules: It's always good to start the day with a little present, I think and here's a little one for you.   Adam: Oh, and it's wrapped up in tissue paper. It's an early Christmas present. How very good. So what is that? OK so do you want to describe it?   Jules: OK so it's a little, it looks like a little woody marble really, doesn't it? And it's got a little tiny hole you can see just there and some extra other little tiny holes. That is an oak marble gall.  Adam: An oak marble...ghoul?  Jules: Gall.  Adam: And how do you spell that?  Jules: G A double L.  Adam: G A double L and what what is it?  Jules: So this is this is incredibly special, so this has in many ways changed human culture, this little tiny thing. Certainly amplified human culture. So this is a gall, which is made by, and it's made by a little tiny wasp. And the wasp lays a an egg in the in the bud of the tree of the oak tree. And it makes the oak change and it sort of changes chemically. It's really strange. And it makes the the oak form this little marble shaped thing on the end of a twig. And that becomes home for the gall wasps' larvae, and so that the little larva grows up inside it and it has this its own special home, but it's also full of lovely food. So that's interesting itself and that it's it's it's it's got this sort of little little home but it what's particularly interesting human, from the human perspective is that these kind of galls were used to make ink for about 1,000 years and the the kind of ink that they made, it was used, I think, until the middle of the 20th century. So kind of until quite recently. So Shakespeare's plays were written on oak gall ink, Newton's theories, the American Declaration of Independence, huge amounts of historic documents.  Adam: So just trying to understand that, Shakespeare's plays were written on ink created by this thing?  Jules: By a gall like, yeah, this kind of thing by by a gall. Yeah. But you can you can still now you can make gall gall ink from these little little things here. So it in many ways it it amplified, this little tiny thing we've got here, amplified the whole course of human history, culture, etcetera in our part of the world.  Adam: Quite an extraordinary place to start our journey today. Wonderful. So, OK, so we're, yes, we'll put that away nice and safe and we'll start our journey. Kate, do you just want to start by telling me what we're going to do when we get out of the car?  Kate: We're going to have a walk round Londonthorpe Wood, which is one of the Woodland Trust sites, one of our thousand woods that we own and we're going to see an oak tree that Jules has found for us to go and talk about.  Adam: Fantastic. All right, well, let's go.  Jules: Well, well so we've just seen some amazing galls on what looks like quite a young tree, it's probably about 30-years-old, would you say, Kate, this one?   Kate: Maybe, yes.  Jules: And, yeah, they're they're bright red and they're on the underside of the oak leaves and they look a bit like cherries and   Adam: I was going to say, the one you showed me was all grey, you gave me an old rubbish one, didn't you? This is what they look like when they're on the tree. It's red, it does look like a cherry.  Jules: Yeah, this is a particularly stunning one, isn't it? And they they are literally called cherry galls. And they again  Adam: They're called cherry balls?  Jules: Cherry galls.   Adam: Galls, cherry galls.  Jules: And they're about the same size as the marble gall that we saw earlier. And I believe they are also caused by a gall wasp. And but what is good about these kind of galls is that they're relatively easy to spot. So once you get your eye in, you start seeing them everywhere, so it's a really lovely thing to start doing, you know, with children or just looking yourself when you're out on a on a walk, you know.  Adam: Wow. So that shows that a wasp has formed that?  Jules: Yeah  Adam: And these are non-stinging wasps, aren't they?  Jules: These are non-stinging wasps. They're teeny, teeny, tiny wasps. They don't look like your your black, you know the big black and and and yellow stripey things that come at your ice cream, not that there's anything wrong with those wasps, they're lovely too.  Adam: Inside that gall is baby wasps? Is that?  Jules: There will be a little larvae inside there.  Adam: And that's what they're using as as food, or is it?  Jules: Yes, that's their home but it's also their food source. And I'm not at some point in the year the the the little tiny wasp, once it's developed, will will kind of drill its way out and then be set free to the to the wider world. But I think we'll find some other kinds of galls, actually. So it might be worth us moving on a little bit and just see if we can.  Adam: OK. Moving on, yeah, that's politely telling me to be quiet and start walking.  Jules: Oh sorry *laughs*  Adam: Sorry, there's a, oh it's a tractor going up and down the field next to us. So that's what the noise is in the background. But the fact that we we sort of just held a branch here and and Kate was already, you know, lots of wildlife, jumped onto her jumper, does raise the issue about how many, how much wildlife an oak supports. And I was hear some fantastic number. Just tell me a little bit about that.  Jules: We know that the oak supports more than 2,300 species and that they could be species that that feed off the oak, that live inside it, that live on, on, on or or around it, that you know they perch in it. So species using the the oak tree in all different ways and they are, they they they're birds and mammals, they're lichen, fungi, invertebrates. All sorts of different kinds of species, but what's important, I think, is that they're only the species we've countered, and I think there are a huge number more that we just haven't got around to counting would, would you agree, Kate? You probably know more about this than me.  Kate: Yes, definitely. And some of those species can live on other types of tree, and some are only found on oak trees, so they're particularly important. And of course, we haven't started talking about the value of deadwood and all those wonderful rare beetles whose larvae live in the wood. So there's lots to be said about that as well.  Adam: I'll tell you what, let's just walk all further away from this tractor, which sounds closer than it is, and you can tell me about the importance of the deadwood.  Jules: Well we might see some spectacular deadwood.  Adam: Oh well, we might see some, OK. OK, so we have stopped by some deadwood and you're going to explain why, is that right? Right. OK. Kate is going to explain. Well, why have we stopped here, Kate?  Kate: Because deadwood is absolutely fantastic and we have a history of a nation of being a little bit too tidy and taking it away and using it for firewood and other things, when actually it's an amazing habitat in its own right. I'm just looking at the variety of rot holes, of larval galleries where the insect larvae have fed, and then the adults emerged. And it is like a whole habitat in its own right. And actually deadwood is really rare. Much of the woodland in the UK is not felt to be in good ecological condition and one of the reasons for that is a lack of deadwood. So it's incredibly important habitat and we don't have enough of it.  Jules: One of the things I didn't understand until recently and Kate, you might know more about this than me, but there's there's different kinds of deadwood. So if you have, it's important to have deadwood in different formats, so standing deadwood so when the old tree is still standing upright, and and deadwood that's lying down on the ground.  Adam: Right. What what why, so it matters if it's vertical or horizontal?  Jules: It it it matters that you have both kinds.  Adam: And why?  Jules: Because, I feel like I'm at the edge of my knowledge, so it's because about it's about different habitats, isn't it Kate, is that right?  Kate: Yeah, I think so. And the the wood will rot at a different rate. It's quite ironic because the one we're standing at now is actually at a 45° angle. So it's neither vertical nor nor horizontal. And of course, oak trees are absolutely full of of tannins, which I think are the same compound you find in the oak galls that enable the writing. But they also mean, you know this huge, great piece of deadwood here could be around for hundreds of years because it won't, it will rot very, very slowly.  Jules: And and one of the great things is when you have deadwood right next to living wood as well, because that creates all these different conditions which will suit different kinds of invertebrates and fungi as well, so that that's really important to have this collection of of different kinds of wood in in you know in a similar area.   Adam: Excellent. OK, we've, we've stopped. We've stopped Kate, and you've got very excited.  Kate: It happens quite easily when I'm out in nature. And there's a whole pile of knopper galls on the floor here, and they're black. You know, they've dropped off the tree. They've done their job. The the wasp has flown off. But I wondered if we could, I've no idea if this is gonna work, I wondered if we could actually try writing with them because they are oozing black.  Adam: Oh my, right, this is so exciting. OK, so this is like this is a modern day Shakespeare. Have you got? OK. The line is to be or not to be. I see. Hold on a second. So you've picked it up, right, I I think you might do something to it.   Kate: Well, I might have to. Shall we see, shall we see if it just?  Adam: Right, but you're not, you're just gonna?  Jules: Ohh there we go.  Kate: There is a brown ooze and it's I think it's not just from the path.  Adam: I was going to say, it's not just mud.  Kate: It's not. It's this kind of coffee colour.  Adam: Wow, OK. And you are writing to be or not to not be.  Kate: I am writing to be or not to be, I I don't know if I break it open a bit more if you might get. Ohh. This is gonna stain my nails, isn't it?  Adam: OK. Ohh dear, don't worry I'll I'll pay for the the visit to to the nail parlour.  Kate: *laughs* I shouldn't worry. Yes, we are actually getting some.  Adam: To be or not to be. Well, I'm sure that would have actually been mixed with water or something.  Kate: Most likely  Adam: Or some alcohol and put into a quill, but that does what hold on, let me just rub it, see. Well, I can confirm that is not just what we have now created ink. Proper exciting.  Kate: Absolutely.  Adam: Thank you very much. Well, we're heading away from our ink gall-bearing oaks to see the main attraction of the day, which is a short drive from here. It is the Bowthorpe Oak, one of the contenders for Tree of the Year. It is rooted in a grass paddock behind the 17th century farmhouse nearby. In 2002, the Tree Council, in celebration of the Golden Jubilee of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, designated the Bowthorpe Oak one of 50 great British trees. One of the 50 greatest British trees in recognition of its place in our national heritage. And I'm meeting the current custodian of the oak who runs the farm in which it lives.  George: My name is George Blanchard and I am one of the family members here that farm at Bowthorpe Park Farm.  Adam: Right. And you have, we're standing by this famous tree. People come here to see this tree?  George: They do, yeah, we get them from all over the world. A lot of lot of UK, obviously, Europe and America, we get a lot of interest from America.  Adam: Well, tell me a bit about this tree.  George: So this tree, the Bowthorpe Oak, is the UK's largest girthed oak tree. It's absolutely stunning as you can, as you can see, fully in leaf at the moment it looks amazing and yeah, that's it's claim to fame.  Adam: Right it's wide the widest I think it was the second widest tree in the UK. Is that right?  George: We know it's the largest largest oak tree in in terms of it's it's the most complete, you know. So I think there could be wider ones, but not quite as complete.  Adam: Not quite as good as your tree!  George: Yeah, exactly. This is yeah *laughs*  Adam: No, I agree. And and is is this a family farm? Is this?  George: It is yeah.  Adam: Right so you've grown up, you've you played under the boughs of this tree.  George: I have. Yeah, yeah and and inside it as well. Remember it is hollow so.  Adam: Right. Yeah. So tell me a bit about the sort of the folklore and the stories around the tree.  George: Yeah so oak trees naturally start to hollow at around 500 years old, but this one was hollowed even further, back in the 1700s by a chap called George Pauncefort and  Adam: It was, it was, it wasn't naturally hollow, he hollowed it out?  George: They they do, they do naturally hollow, but he hollowed it even further. And you can tell this when you're looking inside it, because the the sides are quite flat. It's very unnatural. You can see so the hollowing has been done by by tools. And so he also put benches around the inside of it and a and a doorway on on the west side and even even sort of paved the flooring but and and put a pigeon loft in the crown, which I think, I think back in the day in the 1700s, if you had a pigeon loft in your tree, you were somebody *laughs*.  Adam: Ohh really that's like Lamborghini time, right? OK, forget your Lamborghinis, I've got a pigeon loft in my tree.   George: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And he would have parties in there as as you would, wouldn't you?  Adam: Well, yeah, of course. I mean, you've gone to all that trouble. Was he a member of the family? Was this being passed down?   George: No, no, there's no there's no relation, no relation. We've we've only been farming here since the sort of late 40s.  Adam: Right. OK, amazing. Amazing stuff. And I mean, and it looks in fairly, I mean as you say, it's in good leaf, it's in also just it looks to the untutored eye in good nick as well, generally healthy.  George: It is yeah. Really good really good condition currently. We lost a a limb off the back and that was that was quite concerning because it's it's quite dramatic when they shed a shed a limb, but it is what they they naturally do. We have an inspection done on the tree annually, but at the time of losing the limb, we were, we were quite concerned. So we upped the type of inspection we had done. And they were quite, quite invasive, I say invasive it was, you know, using really small drills, to see if there's any adverse rotting in any places. But no, they were really happy with the condition of the tree and and how healthy it is so other than any sort of man-made issue, I don't see why it shouldn't carry on growing as it is.  Adam: And it's amazing because, I mean, you know, it's taken us quite a while to get here and people come here all this way just to see this tree.  George: They do, yes, yes, seek it out, we call it Lincolnshire's best kept secret.  Adam: Right. Amazing. From all over the world?  George: They do yeah yeah. From all over the world. Like I say, a lot of a lot of Europe people come from Europe and a lot of people come from America. We find that the two two types of people from America, those that really appreciate it and those that just can't get their head around it because it's nowhere near as big as their redwoods *laughs*  Adam: Right? Call this big. Call this big, you should see...  George: Exactly. Yeah, call this big, we've got bigger.  Adam: Yeah OK. Brilliant well thank you very much, I will take a tour round it.  George: Thank you.  Adam: So one of the other, now I have to say, first of all, let me have a look at the front front, we've taken a book with us because Jules has published a book called Oaklore and you've brought it out here because there is a poem about this oak in your book.  Jules: There is and it was written well over 100 years ago by a poet called John Clare and but the interesting thing is when he wrote this poem this would have already been an ancient tree, so it's it's quite an interesting record that he was standing in awe, looking at this tree, just like we are now really.  Adam: Right, right. So when did he write this?  Jules: I don't have the exact date in front of me, but I know it's over well over 100 years ago.  Adam: OK, well over 100 years and you're going to put on your best poetry reading voice.  Jules: *laughs* I'll have a go.  Adam: Go on, give us, I always love, I mean, we did this in the Sherwood Forest podcast where we took a book about Sherwood Forest and a book about a tree to the tree it's about. So we're now going to read a poem about the tree we're standing by. So this poem by John Clare.  Jules: And it's called Burthorp Oak. So here we go. Burthorp Oak.   Old noted oak! I saw thee in a mood  Of vague indifference; and yet with me  Thy memory, like thy fate, hath lingering stood  For years, thou hermit, in the lonely sea  Of grass that waves around thee! Solitude  Paints not a lonelier picture to the view,  Burthorp! than thy one melancholy tree  Age-rent, and shattered to a stump. Yet new  Leaves come upon each rift and broken limb  With every spring; and Poesy's visions swim  Around it, of old days and chivalry;  And desolate fancies bid the eyes grow dim  With feelings, that earth's grandeur should decay,  And all its olden memories pass away.  Adam: Brilliant. That's that's a lovely poem to read by by the tree.  Jules: I think it's quite interesting that he says age rent and shattered to a stump so it it sort of suggests that the tree is in a worse condition than now, wouldn't you say so Kate? And it looks like it might be happier now than when Clare saw it.  Kate: I was just looking at it and I mean it looks like some of those shoots have put on a good foot of growth this year. So that's the amazing thing about ancient oaks is they they so-called retrench. So all the limbs, the limbs drop off, they become shorter and and and wider and then they might all just start to sort of grow again and it sort of goes through these amazing cycles. Certainly there's a lot more vegetation on it than when I last saw it 15 years ago. It looks fabulous.  Adam: And also a lot of oaks grow very tall. This isn't so tall it it is wider, isn't it? It's a squatter tree. Is that because it's actually not had to compete, because it's actually in a field by itself isn't it? It's not competing for light with lots of other trees.  Kate: Yes, maybe. And also trees like this do, the really ancient trees they do tend to become short and squat and it's part, and hollow, and that's part of their survival strategy is that they'll shed some of these top branches and they'll, they'll shorten and and widen.  Adam: Right. I mean, oaks are really important, aren't they in the UK especially, they're part of the national identity, really, aren't they? And and a lot of that's got to do with folklore, which I know, Jules, you've written about as well.  Jules: Yeah, I mean the the oak has been part of our culture well, as far as as, as as far as we know as far as written records go back and even we we believe that the the Druids themselves were very also very interested in oak trees and they worshipped in oak groves and they particularly worshipped mistletoe, the rare mistletoe that came off off oaks. Of course, we don't have written records on the the Druids, so we don't, we know very little about them, but that's certainly what we believe. And then it's been threaded throughout our our history and our culture that the oaks right up to the present day, you know people are still writing about it and painting painting oak trees and you've got wonderful ambassadors like Luke Adam Hawker who is very inspired by oak trees and goes out drawing them.  Adam: Why do you, I mean I don't suppose there's an answer, but do you have a take on why we've landed on the oak as such a a central part of our mythology and identity?  Jules: Well, I I think I think all of our native trees will play a role in that in our folklore and our mythology and and our culture, I think the oak is is is a particularly impressive tree isn't it, especially when you're standing next to a tree like this that that is so majestic and and you know the words like majestic, kingly, queenly, grand, they they just sort of pop into your head. There is just something incredibly awe-inspiring about the oak tree. And then, as we've we've seen before it, it just has such a huge impact on our ecology as well. So I think I think it's just something it it does a lot of heavy lifting culturally and also naturally the oak tree.  Adam: And almost every pub is called the Royal Oak.  Jules: Yes, yes, I think there's at the last count there's well over 400 pubs called the Royal Oak.  Adam: And you know that personally by visiting them?   Jules: Well, I've yes, I've I've tried to count them all. I've still got some way to go *both laugh*  Adam: Yeah. OK, OK, alright. Well, it's it's a good project to be having.  Jules: So there's an interesting story behind the that name the Royal Oak. And the reason the pubs are called that relates back to a very special oak tree, the Boscobel Oak. Now we have to go back in history a few hundred years. And it takes us back to the Battle of Worcester and the son of Charles I was in in battle with the with, with, with the parliamentarians, and he took a drubbing at the Battle of Worcester, and he needed to escape. And he reached this place called Boscobel House, and he was going to hide out in, in that house and try and escape the the soldiers, the the enemy. But it was very insecure and one of his advisers suggested he, instead of hiding in the house, he hid in the oak tree. So they spent the whole night in the oak tree, which subsequently called called the Boscobel Oak, and this and and and they escaped capture and the king spent the whole night with this chap called William Careless as he as he was called   Adam: William Careless?  Jules: William Careless who turned out not to be careless at all because he actually saved the king. And apparently the king sort of curled up with his head on Careless' knee and and he, they they got away. They got away with it and because of that you know that then obviously led into a whole series of events which ultimately led to the restoration of the monarchy and said King became Charles II and and because of that there was an enormous celebration of oak trees. So they they they were raised in status even further. So we've got all the Royal Oak pubs which are effectively commemorating that occasion. But there's also a great day of celebration was declared. It was the 29 May. I think that was the King's birthday, and it was 29 May. And it became oak apple day. And that was when we would all when people across the land would would gather and and celebrate the restoration of the monarchy. And one of the things they used to do was they people would bring branches with oak apples, which is another of those amazing galls. And the more oak apples you had on your branches, the better the better you were, you know, the, the, the cooler you were at the party. And if you didn't bring oak branches with you, apparently people would be mean to you and they'd whip you with nettles.   Adam: Blimey, this story took a turn!  Jules: Yeah, these parties got these these parties got quite out of hand. I actually think we should bring these days back. Not, no nettles. But I think actually wouldn't it be great if we spent every 29 May celebrating our amazing oak trees and and and also the wider nature around us.  Adam: Yeah, we've missed it this year, but I'm putting a date in for us to meet at a Royal Oak somewhere between us on 29 May.  Jules: Yeah, let's do it. Let's party. Yeah. And maybe drink a glass of oak flavoured wine or whisky.  Adam: OK, never had that, but I'm I'm up for it. I'm up for it. Kate, this is also important because this is in the running for Tree of the Year.  Kate: Absolutely. So the Woodland Trust hosts the UK Tree of the Year competition, and this year we've focused on oak trees.   Adam: So so they're all oaks.  Kate: All of them are oak trees this year, so we've got 12 candidates from across the UK and the wonderful Bowthorpe Oak here is one of them. It's my local tree so I'm a little bit biased, but these trees all tell amazing stories. We've got one that's shaped like an elephant in the New Forest. We've got one that has survived being in the middle of pine plantation in the Highlands of Scotland and we've got one that's sadly under threat from a bypass in Shrewsbury. So we've got some amazing stories from these trees and the public can vote. So voting closes on the 21 October 2024 and you can go to the Woodland Trust website so it's woodlandtrust.org.uk/vote.  Adam: There were some cow noises just as you said that in the background! Just to prove that we're in a farm *all laugh*.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the visiting woods pages. Thank you. 

Harness HBDI for Negotiation Success Does your negotiation always get to an annoying stalemate? Well, today's podcast will explore using HBDI to avoid a negotiation stalemate. Join Darren Smith and George as they tackle this exciting topic. You Can Read the Full Negotiation and HBDI Transcript Below: Darren A. Smith: Hi, my name's Darren Smith and you're the home of sticky learning. We are with George Harran. George, hello. George: Hello, how are you, Darren? Darren A. Smith: Hello. Hey, I'm good. I'm good. So I'm Darren, this is George. And we're here today to talk with you about HBDI and negotiation. In fact, the title of this podcast. I'll read out my negotiations. Always get to an annoying stalemate. Use HBDI to understand your opponent to avoid stalemates. So George, we're talking about negotiation and HBDI. The reason you're here is your what we would call naive results. You've just completed your HPDI profile, is that right? George: Yay, correct. Darren A. Smith: OK. Fabulous. Fabulous. So you're gonna ask me lots of probing, challenging questions, particularly around HPDI and how we can use it with negotiation. All right, all right, so let's do a couple of minutes on your understanding of HBDI and what this profile meant to you. The HBDI brain is split into four coloured sections   George: Love it. Darren A. Smith: What did it mean to you doing your profile? George: It's interesting because I found a couple of like things. It was interesting. I discovered things I was aware of, some I wasn't really aware of. Darren A. Smith: Mm hmm mm. George: A couple of the so when I was asked to anticipate the results, I actually nailed it in a way I got all my 4 quadrants more or less precisely the same. I was surprised though, by stressful flow. What's it called? This. Yeah, exactly. The results were a bit different than I was expecting, but like, it is what it is, I guess. Darren A. Smith: That's not. OK, alright. Well, let me give you and the viewers a quick summary of my understanding of your profile here it is. I'm sure you don't mind me showing it. So what Ned Herman said was that we all know that the brain is split left and right. So let me ask you, George, what's the difference between left and right of the brain? George: Yeah. No. The conversion side of the brain and the right side is more like the creative, intuitive side of the brain, or the diversion. Darren A. Smith: Perfect, perfect, perfect. OK. And this was discovered now probably 50 years ago now. Not what Ned Herman said was actually left and right. Absolutely. But he also said there's top and bottom given US 4 quadrants to the brain. Now, Ned, Herman or HBDI, which is the Herman brain dominance instrument, measures how we prefer to think. And there are four quadrants in how we prefer to think we've got the blue Quadrant, which is all about facts. So if you've got a mate who's very good down at the pub quiz. Darren A. Smith: He's probably a blue loads of facts. The yellow. This is the creative, the entrepreneurial, entrepreneurial type. People who have got a million ideas and might be described as having their head in the clouds. We've got the red people. These are the touchy feely people. People what I love about the Reds is if you walk into a room they normally come over and touch your elbow and then we've got our greens, who are our structured plan. Next project managers. All right. So this just describes how you prefer to think. George: Interesting. Darren A. Smith: You can't get it wrong. You can't get it right. This is George. George: Hello. Darren A. Smith: So if having understood that you have a tendency to think more in the right side of the brain, your creativity, your big picture thinking's fairly high. George: Yeah. Darren A. Smith: Your people skills, your feelings fairly high, but your ability to do facts in the blue is quite low and your green is, let's say it's fairly low too. All right,

We are now launching our dedicated new YouTube and Twitter! Any help in amplifying our podcast would be greatly appreciated, and of course, tell your friends! Notable followon discussions collected on Twitter, Reddit, Reddit, Reddit, HN, and HN. Please don't obsess too much over the GPT4 discussion as it is mostly rumor; we spent much more time on tinybox/tinygrad on which George is the foremost authority!We are excited to share the world's first interview with George Hotz on the tiny corp!If you don't know George, he was the first person to unlock the iPhone, jailbreak the PS3, went on to start Comma.ai, and briefly “interned” at the Elon Musk-run Twitter. Tinycorp is the company behind the deep learning framework tinygrad, as well as the recently announced tinybox, a new $15,000 “luxury AI computer” aimed at local model training and inference, aka your “personal compute cluster”:* 738 FP16 TFLOPS* 144 GB GPU RAM* 5.76 TB/s RAM bandwidth* 30 GB/s model load bandwidth (big llama loads in around 4 seconds)* AMD EPYC CPU* 1600W (one 120V outlet)* Runs 65B FP16 LLaMA out of the box (using tinygrad, subject to software development risks)(In the episode, we also talked about the future of the tinybox as the intelligence center of every home that will help run models, at-home robots, and more. Make sure to check the timestamps

Interview with Soraya Alexander, COO of Classy.  We discuss the Classy State of Modern Philanthropy and dig through the data. Get the report: https://donationtrends.classy.org/    Rough Transcript   [00:00:00] George Voice Dub: I have known about this particular fundraising platform for quite some time. I'm excited to have none other than Soraya Alexander, the chief operating officer, the COO of classy. How's it going for you today ? [00:00:14] Soraya: It's going great. Thanks for having me. I'm so happy to be. Yes. [00:00:19] George: Yeah, you pop up, you know, as a definite provider of services, but also a lot of content. I see a lot of educational resources being churned out, which I, as a, as a consumer and creator myself deeply appreciate. And always I'm more interested generally in platforms that can look at their own data. [00:00:40] And so you've recently created this report, but before we get into there, how do you describe in your words, uh, what class he. [00:00:47] Soraya: We've got, um, a fancy brand proposition, but at the most basic level, we do digital fundraising for nonprofits. So the whole suite of, you know, main donation forms to events, to peer, to peer, um, anything that your donors, wherever your donors are going online, we're [00:01:03] George: It's such a competitive landscape. I, when I, you know, 12 years ago I started whole whale. I was like one thing I will never, ever do donation platforms. It just strikes me as like an impossible field to, to kind of grow in. So how has, how has it been over at classy? [00:01:19] Soraya: Oh, it's been great. So I've been a classy for four years. And I think where we get really excited is that, you know, we've got several thousand customers and they are honestly, the sector is made up of the most innovative, ambitious people. And generally. They're totally under resourced to match their ambition, right? [00:01:38] Like that is the definition of the sector. They don't have the resources. I don't know how many, how many, you know, the resources you would need to solve the world's greatest problems, but the sector definitely doesn't have them. And so we really see a lot of promise in technology overcoming that gap. [00:01:52] Like how can technology accelerate your efforts, amplify your efforts, get more fun, city, more good. Um, and so we're really not cynical about, you know, what we, what we do. We see. How technology can transform the work of the sector. So I, I completely love it. The, the pace of innovation, um, the way that we engage with donors, um, has been changing a lot. [00:02:15] So it is competitive, but that also just means we have to be better. And I think the sector deserves that. Um, so I really, it's been a lot of fun. [00:02:22] George: You know, it it's good to hear. And certainly like under resourced is the, is the sad mantra of what's going on and great that you're able to provide the sort of frictionless way to get more money into more good hands. You have come out with the state of modern philanthropy. I was hoping maybe you could pull out what that is first [00:02:45] Soraya: Yeah. Yeah. [00:02:46] George: what do, what do what's the state? [00:02:48] Are we [00:02:48] Soraya: , I don't know that I have an answer. I think, uh, optimistic is probably the one word answer. So the state of modern philanthropy is an annual report. We do it's the, the fifth year we've published it. And we would just kind of glean all of this information from all of the campaigns on the platform. [00:03:05] We would collect all of these insights around donor trends, behaviors, campaign trends, payment trends, uh, and it was just too much too much information to not share it out with the sector. We thought it could be really valuable. So, you know, this past year we saw over a billion dollars of donations. Uh, it was 12 million individual transaction events, 54,000 campaigns. [00:03:27] And so from that, you can start seeing kind of what's working. What's not how are things progressing? Um, so yeah, really happy to publish it. And it. Kind of goes hand in hand. We do several consumer surveys throughout the year as well. And so you marry up what are people saying about how they wanna give and then what actually happens on the platform and, um, you find some interesting, interesting insights. [00:03:47] So yeah, excited to kind of share some of those today, but, um, please do you know if anybody's interested, go, go through there's there's way too many insights to, to talk through. It ends up being, you know, feeling tedious, but we think that we've packaged it in a way that could be really helpful. [00:04:01] George: Yeah. And just so folks know, we'll have the link in the show notes, but I, I found it by going to donation trends dot class e.org. So that's, I think where we can find this, the looking at your executive summary, which I always appreciate. The quick summary. Tell me what I need to know before I need to know it. [00:04:19] Cuz I'm super lazy. You have that events are back. Um, so events were away, clearly events. Meaning I read this as in person fundraising events, cuz that pesky little thing called the COVID. So we're BA we're back. [00:04:35] Soraya: we're back. What, you know, so one of the things we do is because we've got kind of long term relationships with so many nonprofits, we'll only isolate to year over year performance for the same kinds of campaigns and the same kinds of organizations. So this isn't just. We started selling, you know, to a lot more organizations who are interested in events. [00:04:52] This is actual year over year performance. Um, and we saw that revenue from events group 50% year over year. So that's coming back in a big way. Uh, but it's not just coming back in person. I think people got really used to virtual. Events then got totally sick of virtual events, but they held onto some of the digital components that feel easier, more elegant, more efficient. [00:05:15] And so I kind of mentioned these consumer surveys. We did, we actually did a, a fundraiser experience report, which was a survey of donors and they talked about really. Uh, valuing when there are things like digital auctions or, you know, digital fundraisers added on to either hybrid or fully in person events. [00:05:35] So now we are seeing about half of donors say, yeah, we wanna come back to events. Events are raising a ton of money again, you know, anybody who's, um, You know, been in this ecosystem or frankly been in an airport, knows that like the in person experience is back, but that digital component is not going away. [00:05:51] It's just evolving. Uh, so that, that kind of combination we're seeing as a, as a real transformer as we go, as we go forward [00:05:59] George: And just to, to repeat the, what was the year over year increase. [00:06:03] Soraya: 50% [00:06:05] George: About a 50%. That's pretty phenomenal. And again, just the, the sample size, I think, just to confirm is the, the total over, you know, $1.1 billion that transaction, like, so of that has a huge increase. Uh, is the, is the overall amount donated on the platform also increased in that same period of time? [00:06:24] Or is it like the percent of money coming via? Makes [00:06:28] Soraya: Yeah, it's a good question. So we're definitely, um, growing and that's both growing through individual organizations who are growing, who are doing kind of really well with all these optimizations and different campaign types. And, you know, we'll talk about. Um, channel optimization and payments optimization, and then it's also growing just as our out platform grows and we're able to support nonprofits, but for events specifically, these are events that were run the year before or organizations that were with us the year before that weren't running events and what they did the next year. [00:06:56] So it's not reflective of just kind of new organizations it's truly year over year comparison. And we're seeing, um, a pretty drastic, uh, increase, which we find really encouraging. [00:07:05] George: Yeah, you read my mind. I'm like, well, wait a minute. You know, the number went up, cuz our number went up and you're like breaking news. [00:07:10] Soraya: for it. [00:07:11] George: organization's numbers go up because they got bigger. So you kind of controlled for it. Looking at the same organizations. Uh, running these events. I'm curious, are these events I R L or are they a mix? [00:07:22] Do you have that [00:07:23] Soraya: Total mix. We it's, it's a complete mix and it's even harder to what we're seeing is either even the IRL. Very few of them are strictly in person. Now, almost everybody has introduced this digital component. They've, you know, really come to understand that. Why place a geographic limitation, if you don't have to. [00:07:43] And people in the room are happy to engage online with, you know, again, things like digital auctions, so why restrict it, or even timebound auctions, there's no need to restrict it. You're raising more money. If you can kind of open the aperture and it's so easy to do now, the donors experienced with it. [00:08:00] They actually prefer it, um, based on our donor surveys. And so, uh, we see very few pure play in real life events happen. [00:08:07] George: the majority of these are non geofenced. [00:08:11] Soraya: It's it's in person events that have a digital component that has been layered on. That's a lot of what we're seeing now. [00:08:19] George: Gotcha. So there are people hanging out in person, but like, like logo, like, like I'm gonna walk around my block. I'm gonna walk around my block, like, oh, cool. [00:08:27] Soraya: of that, or even just, we're gonna have an in person gala, but our auction's not gonna be a, you know, the paddle race is gonna be ver digital now. And so if you wanna phone it in, you couldn't make the gala that night, you just really could not get outta your sweatpants. You can actually participate at alongside the people who are in the room. [00:08:42] That's a lot of, kind of what we're seeing. [00:08:44] George: Yeah, finally sweatpants for a cause I knew it was gonna come. [00:08:48] Soraya: I am behind that. Cause [00:08:49] George: What is the weirdest event you think classy has been, been parked to? [00:08:55] Soraya: Oh man. You know, I need customer permission before I can talk about some of these things. I will say the coolest one was right at the start of COVID. Do you remember, um, that Robin hood telethon in New York that had. Tina Faye crying. It had, I mean, it had everybody coming forward and really like every celebrity you can imagine coming forward to raise money, um, for all kinds of relief efforts that Robin hood was doing just at the start of COVID incredibly powerful. [00:09:21] And if you had told me that we were gonna be part of some huge telethon in, in the year, you know, 20, 20, I, I would. I wouldn't have believed it. Um, but it was a really incredible kind of moment for everybody to come together. And we were really, really proud to work with them. [00:09:37] George: I'd be so curious. I, I feel like I can just talk about this or parse this out almost in, in a lot of ways. What are the, I don't know if you have this, but what are the highest yield, um, types of events? Is it, is there a certain center, like, oh, they're running the, uh, yield walkathon or like, oh my gosh, it's the, the silent awesome pet grooming Bonanza that like really brings in the dollars. [00:10:00] Soraya: It's a great question there. It totally depends on the organization, which is a really unsatisfying answer. The one thing that I will say is completely consistent is I think sometimes event organizers. Feel like the big ask is getting people to the event, getting them to register, getting them to give again, they don't, they're, they're nervous to ask for those participants to also fundraise on their behalf. [00:10:22] When you do event with fundraising on top of it, you invite somebody to raise additionally either for, you know, uh, run, walk, ride, or even just a gala. Event volume goes through the roof, always encourage your network and your supporters to do more for your cause. It, it, that is a really transformative aspect that takes very little from you. [00:10:42] You are just activating your supporters network, um, and it's not used as much as you'd expect. And, and really that has transformative impacts on, on how much you raise. [00:10:53] George: So as I'm understanding this being explicit, that attend, but you're also fundraising. [00:10:59] Soraya: Yes. [00:11:00] George: Don't just show up, like [00:11:02] Soraya: That's right. And you think about, you know, everybody gets one more donor, you've doubled your event revenue. Like it's not hard stuff. You don't really have to ask them to become superstar fundraisers, say, Hey mom, I'm going to gala tonight. Do you wanna throw 20 bucks on top of my ticket? Um, for something that I care about your mom will. [00:11:18] Pitch in 20 bucks. Um, and that, that can really change, right? Yeah. that changes things. Um, and it's, it's very low lift. It should be no lift with the right technology. Um, and, and you don't, and, and suddenly you have all these new donors as well, suddenly mom's part of your database suddenly you can market to her and get her as a more committed donor in the long term. [00:11:36] So even outside of the event, you've expanded your network in kind of profound ways. Um, so we, we are always encouraging our, our, uh, organizations to consider. [00:11:45] George: right. Big takeaway. Everybody. Get those mom dollars. [00:11:48] Soraya: Get mom dollars. [00:11:50] George: another one we, yeah, hashtag hashtag get mom dollars. Uh, donors give more when they have choices. Can you, yeah. And other news money, money buys things. [00:12:03] Soraya: yeah, shocking. [00:12:04] George: I don't, I don't mean it that way. What does this actually mean? [00:12:07] Soraya: Well, well, so we, um, we launched a payments offering a few years ago because we heard that organizations kind of want everything consolidated. They want easier reconciliation. And so we, we launched this, this payments gateway as a, as a way to facilitate easier organization reconciliation and just reporting honestly. [00:12:28] And then we saw the light on payments and became completely obsessed with how. Offering different payment types can really transform conversion rates, donor retention rates, even dollar amounts that you're giving. And so as our payments offering expanded, we said, okay, let's layer in digital wallets, right? [00:12:46] Apple pay. Yes. You should have apple pay PayPal. Yes. You should have PayPal, Venmo, crypto ACH, which is like digital bank transfer. You start offering all these things and you see individual donation amounts go up, you see conversion rates go up, you see. Um, recurring commitments, go up, you see lifetime value of those recurring commitments extend you start adding all these things up and it starts sounding like comical numbers. [00:13:10] So I'm not even gonna share kind of some of the things we're seeing, cuz I am making our team go through and scrub it a hundred more times before I would share it with a public. But we will say, you know, a couple of the stats we saw, one time donations could increase 50% when you have payment options on there. [00:13:25] And this sounds really profound until you actually take a second and say, how do I behave as a consumer? Oh yeah. If there's apple pay, I am more likely to complete a checkout, whether it's on a eCommerce site or a nonprofit donation form. If I don't have to. Get up while I'm in my sweatpants, you know, watching the gala from home, I don't have to go up and get my, you know, find my phone and find my credit card and find whatev or sorry, find my credit card, find my laptop, whatever else. [00:13:49] So it's really intuitive when you put yourself in the mind of a consumer. Um, and yet we, you know, we still have kind of nonprofit saying, well, I've got, you know, I've got a credit card form. Like that's enough. You know, I, I have a means for a donor to check out that's actually not enough. Um, and. It's transformative when you have all of these options. [00:14:09] And it's also tragic when you think you've spent so long, getting the public to know about the cause care about the cause. Find your organization that is trying to address the cause. Get all the way to a donation form, and then still check out. Rates are. Way lower than they should be. Definitely not a hundred percent. [00:14:26] And, and you think about how much work you have done to then lose the donor at that last moment. And if it's kind of tragic, um, and that's why we've become obsessed with payments, cuz you can start bumping that number up in kind of meaningful ways. [00:14:36] George: Yeah, just to reiterate though, you're saying that the average one time donation was nearly 1.5 X more just by offering these options all in one place. That's that's amazing. I had thought prior. To this, that probably the number one piece that impacted the amount given in that first time, one time amount was the anchoring, what the prefilled amount was, [00:15:03] Soraya: Yeah. We're seeing as actual payment options. It's not just conversion rates that are impacted. It's actually the dollars that you give. [00:15:08] George: Wow. And, and you found, so you now accept crypto. [00:15:13] Soraya: We do we accept [00:15:14] George: when did that start? [00:15:16] Soraya: a couple of weeks ago. We just launched it, um, right in the middle of crypto, winter. It's you know, we'll we'll uh, [00:15:22] George: what are you guys doing? Losing [00:15:23] Soraya: I I know, come on over. No, I mean, the idea, what we've seen is the more offerings you have, we like saying that we know we have more payment options now than Amazon. Um, you know, you just, you wanna come over no matter how you wanna give, we will be there for you. [00:15:35] We will accept. We will accept any, you know, any form of [00:15:39] George: You accept all cryptocurrencies, all, all forms of all forms of the, uh, the doge. [00:15:45] Soraya: Not, not everything, but more every day. I think we just, um, announced that we, we extended to another only 10 currencies just last week. So they keep coming. Um, the capabilities keep extending, um, but very early days. [00:15:58] And I think, you know, that's the most exciting thing for us. Um, you know, we, we did. Credit card and ACH. A couple of years ago, we layered in digital wallets about six months after that, about a year ago, no, maybe eight months ago was PayPal. Uh, then Venmos two months after that crypto, you know, was just a couple of weeks ago. [00:16:16] So, uh, the velocity and the, the focus and the expansion here is, is continuing. And it's really because of that value, we see the donor engagement and the reactions and the receptivity. um, so, so no plans on, on kind of slowing down, we're running out of currencies to accept and, and payment methods to accept. [00:16:32] But, um, as long as there's more, we're gonna keep, keep exploring to create, create new things. That's it? Well, and it's fun cuz now you get to start getting, uh, really weird about thinking. Okay. What does event, you know, we're talking about hybrid events, we're talking about crypto, the future of. Uh, virtual galas where you're just auctioning NFTs, and suddenly things become really interesting is, is absolutely, you know, there are brainstorming sessions happening with some of our most innovative customers around what this can look like and how we can support it. [00:17:00] So, [00:17:01] George: Why did you choose to, uh, why did you choose to accept crypto? [00:17:04] Soraya: Um, really it's about kind of donor choice and organization choice. So our job is to be a platform that just says we can enable nonprofits to engage with our donors in any way that is meaningful to donors. And our job is to. Do a lot of kinda market assessment stay on the cutting edge of, you know, eCommerce trends, donor trends, non-profit trends and say, okay, where, where is this going? [00:17:24] Where can we get more funds to causes that need them? And then we will have, you know, we will pursue offerings in that capacity. So it was, it was kind of an easy choice from that lens. [00:17:33] George: and do you, uh, Do you have any organizations that are expressed to saying like, no, no, no. Like turn that off or I assume they have to turn on all of these things. It's not default outta the box. Right? So [00:17:45] Soraya: We do no, no, no. You have complete control over what you do, how you engage with it, what you turn on. Even at a campaign level, you can decide, you know, this one doesn't really feel right. We don't think it's the right donor base. Um, but here we would like to [00:17:56] George: But your data seems to suggest that you should check all of the boxes, like land C air, however you wanna get us there. [00:18:02] Soraya: our data strongly suggested, but this is why we release these reports. It's like, you know, we'll do the analysis. You can make the decision. The choice is yours. [00:18:11] George: I love backed insights that fly in the face of the. Common knowledge is don't offer too many choices. You're gonna overwhelm the person, keep it focused. Like, you know, you seem to be betraying the, the imutable laws of UX and, and sort of throwing all this. [00:18:28] Soraya: I'm really glad you asked that. So, um, The right options are good. And so more options means you have a higher, uh, higher chance of getting to the right one for that donor. But does that mean all the donor? All those options have to be on the table for every single experience. Absolutely not. And so you're right. [00:18:45] We actually are working on how do you get more insights around who's landing on the page and maybe you cater those options. To that person. So you can have the full suite enabled for every campaign, but based on what you know about a particular donor visitor, you can say, you know what, we're only gonna show these three options. [00:19:02] We really don't see any indication that this person would be interested in option X. So we'll just hide it on that page. So it's not, it's not live yet, but you're absolutely right. Those are, those are things we're exploring right now. [00:19:12] George: be curious. Cause you just turned this on of putting all of those together. It seems that they are they're additive and it's like in addition to not, instead of, and I wonder with something. Like crypto, which has, uh, a polarizing effect, I think in its current cycle of adoption, which is a fancy way of saying doesn't this piss off some folks potentially that are looking at ways to give, and they're like, wait a minute. [00:19:37] This organization accepts, you know, you know, climate destroying cryptocurrency, [00:19:43] Soraya: Yeah, [00:19:44] George: you all. I'm not giving to this organization. I, I wonder if that's a thought or concern. [00:19:49] Soraya: Yeah, well, the, the, the crypto argument aside, we do have kind of off offsets enabled if you want as an organization to sign up for some kind of offset program. So we do have that kind of, um, integrated as well. And then, um, I think it ends up being the, the organizations know their donor base really well, and they say, okay, um, are you choosing kind of greener crypto, you know, offerings, things like that. [00:20:12] George: Yeah. I don't know the right answer, but I do know that more is different. [00:20:16] Soraya: more, more is different, more so far is really. Um, paying off and we are testing the heck out of it. Uh, and seeing, because the second it starts not paying off we'll, you know, we'll, we'll publish that as well and, and give control to kind of moderate. [00:20:32] George: Yeah. The irony to me of also the, like the crypto argument, then we'll move on. Cuz I love rabbit holes is, is the fact that I assume that on donation. The acid is liquidated so you're not holding it. You're technically getting it outta the system and switching back to Fiat. So it's, it's kind of funny to me being like, how dare you, you know, not go green. [00:20:51] You're like, you know what we're doing? Right. We're removing liquidity from the system. You don't like, you know how this works, [00:20:57] Soraya: love, I love that we haven't even pursued that angle, but, um, [00:21:01] George: Yeah. Yeah. [00:21:03] Soraya: It is, it is, it is early days though, and you're right. And the, the, the thinking around it and just the, the process of producing it, everything is evolving so quickly. And so I think for us, it's always, how do we, how do we stay on leading edge? [00:21:16] How do we make sure that. You know, so I started my, my career in the social sector and moved into e-commerce and customer loyalty and customer engagement for the, for profit sector. And so this is kind of the best of both worlds, where I get to say, you know, I ki I have familiarity with what the sector needs and what they encounter, and I know about e-commerce and it was always, you just try to go where the, where the donor, the consumer is. [00:21:37] You try to make it as easy for them. If you just, if the goal. Make it easy for them to spend money with you, then you have to figure out that psychology and that experience, and that is your job. And so for us, that is our job on behalf of the sector that we think needs the most. And so wherever that goes, we will, we will be there. [00:21:54] George: Of working with, and also like talking to folks that have experience in the e-commerce sector, moving into the nonprofit sector. You're like, yeah, go get that money. That's how this works. That's how all of this [00:22:04] Soraya: that's it. That's the, [00:22:05] George: get the [00:22:05] Soraya: the job. That's the [00:22:07] George: overthink it. [00:22:08] Soraya: Yeah. And you have to do that in really sophisticated ways. You know, how do you do that when you're not, um, you know, how do you do that when you're talking about impact, where you're talking about long term relationships, where, you know, you have a fraction of the budget, you've gotta get even more creative and thoughtful and personalized and all these things. [00:22:24] Um, it it's so much more important. You can't just say, okay, we're running a flash sale on something and you don't have those levers. Um, and so I just, I completely love it. [00:22:31] George: We have a final point in here that fundraising among peers thrives on social media and you have this number that peer tope raise on average 3.8 times more than other time based campaigns. Can you help me parse this out? [00:22:46] Soraya: Yeah. So, um, this is really around, you know, focusing on. Campaigns that say, okay, we've got, you know, we've got an end date. If that's an event, you know, you're leading up to an event you're trying to raise money or we're raising for a particular fund. Um, this actually goes back to the events conversation we had earlier, which is just activate your donors and your supporters networks offer a way for them to fundraise on your behalf and for time-based campaigns specifically, you see almost four times more raised when you allow people to fundraise and extend what their own wallet can do, what their own contributions can do. [00:23:19] And then suddenly you also get all these new donors. Um, so I, there's no reason not to allow people to do more than what you know, they're willing to spend in that moment. Cuz they have networks who are going to listen to them. You know, this is important to you and I care about you and I feel aligned to your values and I want to support the things that you support. [00:23:39] It doesn't have to be, you know, their entire network to, for it, to be really meaningful for non. [00:23:43] George: What does this actually look like? Are you saying the organization creates this peer-to-peer fundraising campaign and then sort of enables a certain feature for social share? Explicitly says it puts it in the flow. What, what does this [00:23:56] Soraya: Yeah, what, what we are, what we are looking at. So we have, um, peer to peer capabilities, you know, like separate campaigns and we have events where you've got fundraising on top of it. Uh, so those two event types where you can say. I allow I going to enable you to set up your own fundraising page. That's what we're talking about versus just an event where you buy a ticket or just a campaign where you individually donate. [00:24:19] So we're not talking about social sharing here. That definitely has power, but when you actually encourage people to set up their own fundraising page, we see almost four times more raised. That's right. [00:24:29] George: So the individual is creating a page that they have their, like their fingerprint on under the banner of the organization. And then they're encouraged to share that page on social, check out my fundraising page, and then they post it. [00:24:41] Soraya: That's right. That's right. [00:24:44] George: Yeah. That [00:24:44] Soraya: they don't have to be great at it. You know, that's the, I think that's the compelling thing is people say, like, I don't know that I've got these power fundraisers. I think that was the point. That was really exciting to me. You don't have to have a network of pseudo development staff at your disposal. [00:24:59] You just ask your, your committed fundraisers to open up a page. They get a couple of donations and you think about right there, that's four times as much donations, you know, four times as much volume. It doesn't take long for the math to get there. And yet it feels really profound. When you say four times the amount of volume as any other campaign type. [00:25:17] Yeah. Just, just allow people to kinda help. [00:25:20] George: Yeah, it seems like in some ways you're unlocking the power law even more so where clearly. 10% of your followers, donors supporters have 90% of the potential following. There's gonna be one person in there. Who's just happens to be hyper connected. And by allowing that person encouraging that person to leverage that social network, you're, you're, uh, you're dancing in the right side of the power law. [00:25:45] Soraya: That that's it. And you, it, it really doesn't, you know, if you have really sophisticated peer to peer and event with fundraising, keep, you know, um, campaigns absolutely. That exists, but they don't always have to be that you, you know, with the right tooling, you just say, yes, this is an option. They will take it from there. [00:26:01] Um, so I, I also recognize that we're talking to development officers and development managers who are saying, I don't have a huge staff to launch all these complex campaigns. You actually don't necessarily need it. You know, tech can help you. Tech can fill in the gaps of what, you know, your staff can't do manually. [00:26:17] It should be doing that. It should help you scale. And this is one of those areas. [00:26:20] George: I love it. Anything else about the report we should [00:26:23] Soraya: So there's one piece that is a really unintuitive. Stat. And so it takes a second to parse it, but I think it's, it's fascinating when you think about it. So recurring capture rate, when you are, um, donating and you decide to become a sustaining member as opposed to a one time member. Um, let's say that's a, you know, 10 percent-ish capture rate over time. [00:26:45] When you, as a development officer, look at your transactions, this is platform wide for us. You look at all of your transactions in a month. 58% of those transactions were recurring donations. That means that they were decided to give before that month. So it's not that there's, you know, 58% of the people who come in on any given month are making a recurring gift. [00:27:04] It's that the transactions that are processed in that month, 58% of them end up being recurring gifts that have been decided before that. And so if you think about your donor outreach strategy and your engagement strategy, know that. More than half of the transactions in given month have already been committed to how are you engaging that audience? [00:27:24] So back to like the e-commerce days, we think a lot about, are you talking to your recurring donors? Are you making sure that you're, you're letting them know that ongoing impact? Are you making sure that they have opportunities to give again? Are you treating them like gym members where you're hoping they set it and forget it and you never talk to them and they just let it go forever? [00:27:41] Or are you saying we wanna make sure you understand the value of this dollar because it. It's the, it's the predominant number of transactions, even if it's not the predominant number of donors you see every month. And so we just don't want 'em to, we don't want it to become like the silent majority that you forget about and take for granted and take, you know, just assume they'll always be there. [00:28:01] They require some cultivation they require talking to, and we actually see that about a quarter of recurring donors end up giving one time gifts on top of their monthly commitment. You should absolutely be engaging with this cohort. So it it's, I know it's a little bit of a confusing stat when you say it this way, but I just think about, you know, you look at a report and you see this many times a credit card was charged in this month. [00:28:22] More than half of those cards, those donors didn't come to your site necessarily that month they had already committed. And are you thinking about them as actively as you would any other kind of cohort of donors that month and you should be? Um, so I think a lot about donor segmentation and engagement and ongoing communication, um, and how important it is. [00:28:40] George: think the only thing that stuck to my brain there was that we have reoccurring donors as a nonprofit. [00:28:46] Soraya: Yes. [00:28:46] George: According to your data. Literally one out of four of those folks will just write an extra check. If I reach out to them, [00:28:55] Soraya: Yes. [00:28:55] George: I feel like that is something that would scare the, the fundraising pants off. [00:29:01] Somebody be like, oh my gosh, don't disrupt. Leave them. Be let the money come in. Don't like piss off anybody being like, how dare you ask me for more money. I already give you the money, [00:29:12] Soraya: Yeah, no, [00:29:13] George: no, the data suggests other. [00:29:15] Soraya: the data suggests otherwise. And, and again, I think we're, we're scared because we feel like we got away with something when we got that recurring gift and like, oh my [00:29:22] George: did, you got the [00:29:23] Soraya: money. For however long. Um, but people wanna validate their decision to invest in you. They're investing in your organization and your cause and the impact you can have. [00:29:33] So the ways that you communicate that was a good investment, the way you should validate that investment and the ways that you can communicate, how much more you can do with a little kind of extra on top, that all speaks to their values and why they're with you. So it definitely shouldn't be something scary. [00:29:47] It's really powerful. Uh, donors. [00:29:50] George: That's interesting. I'm wondering, do you know your average retention for a reoccurring donor? Like that, that gift amount? I'm always. Do you get more in the one time where that, uh, that cutoff and that trade off is it depends on, you know, who, which data source you're talking to [00:30:05] Soraya: Um, I do, and I've got fresher data. That's like hot off the press as of yesterday that I won't share yet. So a few years ago we pulled it maybe two or three years ago and we found a recurring donor is five times more valuable than a one time donor. Um, we have seen that go up meaningfully, um, almost. [00:30:22] I, I shouldn't dare you, but something like almost double it's almost, it's almost, it's almost double [00:30:27] George: More. [00:30:27] Soraya: And it's because of some of the, um, capabilities that we've enhanced along those lines of, you know, through, through our payments offering, which is, you know, recurring, retry, recurring capture. [00:30:38] Automatic card. Updater the ability to engage with donors before cards expire. If, you know, if we don't think we're gonna be able to update them, there's all kinds of capabilities to allow you to extend the life of a donor. Because more often than not, you lose a recurring donor because of a payment failure, not because they're canceling. [00:30:55] And so if you can address all of those, all of those reasons, or as, you know, as much as you can, you can extend the life of a donor, um, substantially. [00:31:03] George: That makes sense. And there's also just been like technical shifts in the way some credit cards operate that even when you cancel it, if it's a preexisting payment system already in place that they maintain that while canceling any new charge. So there's like just sort of happy accident of fate [00:31:17] Soraya: Yes. That's right. Well, and the thing that I'll add is if you really can get 25% of these donors to give a gift again, why would you ever say, I want the one time, because I'm scared that this is gonna be a lower donation amount over time. Like they'll come back because you've got that consistent relationship with them. [00:31:32] And so there's just, there's all kinds of reasons why no recurring is still. Still the way to go. [00:31:38] George: Like you're living on the positive end of the hedonic treadmill, [00:31:41] Soraya: Yeah, there we go. [00:31:42] George: fancy way of saying people just get real used to what they've been doing. Right. And like, oh, you know, like life could be as good as you want, and then you get used to it. And you're like, this sucks. I want something new. So on the positive side of that, I'm used to giving my 25 or 50 bucks, whatever the number is a month. [00:31:56] Like that's what status quo is. But is that good enough? The hedonic treadmill says no. [00:32:01] Soraya: We can do more and back to payments offerings. Um, I think we saw that for ACH. Let me see it. Oh yeah. Recurring gifts. When you have all these payment offerings, recurring gifts on ACH, which is kinda direct bank transfer are 30% higher than credit card. So even that number of what [00:32:15] George: Can you say that again? I [00:32:16] Soraya: yeah. [00:32:17] A AC recurring gifts made on ACH versus credit card. It's it's like a direct bank transfer [00:32:24] George: Gotcha. So I connect my bank and then like, I'm, I'm locked in. [00:32:27] Soraya: That's right. That's about 30% larger than those made on credit card. And so back to payment offerings, when you're engaging with kind of sophisticated donors and you can actually nudge them on, you know, if you're giving, you know, these might be like, these are options for you. [00:32:42] These are recurring donors who want to give in these other, in these other ways. Uh, you can actually nudge that number up as well. And so then. You start, you start compounding all of the impacts of these little benefits and it starts to be really, um, meaningful relative to let's say a one time gift where you only have one, you know, payment offering and, um, [00:33:01] George: You also can dance. You also can dance with the fact that you don't have to pay the credit card processing fee when you use ACH. Cuz [00:33:06] Soraya: That's right. It's cheaper for the organizations. That's right. A hundred percent. Yeah. [00:33:10] George: well, awesome. I'm glad you, I'm glad you added that. That's a, another counterintuitive, but look at the data and, you know, file that away. [00:33:17] There's some real, there's some real good gems in here. Thank you for sharing [00:33:20] Soraya: we think so. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. We're happy to do it. [00:33:24] George: Yeah. Rather than just keeping it inside. You're like, oh, here are our secrets. You you've decided to share it. I, I do. I do genuinely appreciate that. Alrighty. Are you ready for rapid fire? [00:33:35] Soraya: now let's go. [00:33:36] George: Okay. I don't know if you have much of a choice, but I always [00:33:39] Soraya: I [00:33:39] George: that because, you know, uh, you know, ask, ask permission. [00:33:44] Okay. So let's kick this off. What is one tech tool or website that you have, or your organization has started using in the last year? [00:33:51] Soraya: The calm app. It helps me at work. It helps me with everything. I know you think that's a, that's a, that's a cheating answer, but it's not mental state is everything [00:33:59] George: That's great mind achieves with the mind achieves with the body believes and strike that reverse it. Tech issues. What tech issues are you currently battling with? [00:34:08] Soraya: Data availability everywhere. And as completely as I want all the time, I don't know anybody who won't an won't have that in their answer somewhere on their list. [00:34:16] George: Yeah. What is coming in the next year that has you the most excited? [00:34:20] Soraya: we just joined forces with GoFundMe and there are. [00:34:24] George: about that. [00:34:25] Soraya: Uh, I am so excited because there are a hundred million donors on that platform who are activated and engaged and not actually affiliated with nonprofits. It's all individual acute cause giving. And if we can connect those donors who are responding in a moment to a human and say, there's also organizations fixing this issue at scale and structurally, would you like to meet them and continue this relationship? [00:34:48] I think there is so much power for organizations and that is why we did it. And I cannot wait cuz we are working on it. Right. [00:34:54] George: Might have another podcast in the future. I'm always curious about companies that, that get acquired and then I'm always watching. [00:35:02] Soraya: Uh, I am so enthralled about it. It is like the most exciting area of how do you fundamentally change the game for nonprofits operating at a very competitive market? And I think this is a really exciting one, so I would love to talk about it. [00:35:17] George: All right. We'll put, put a pin in that one. [00:35:19] Soraya: Yeah. Great. [00:35:19] George: Talk about a, can you talk about a mistake that you made earlier in your career that shapes the way you do things now? [00:35:25] Soraya: No, I never made a mistake. I'm just kidding. Um, so, uh, I have so many, um, I think one of the earlier ones was, um, I was, I was, when you're early in your career, you were kind of insecure about how little experience you have. And so you try to overcompensate with confidence and demonstrating mastery, and then you get nowhere cuz you can't actually have honest conversations. [00:35:46] You're not in a position to learn and everybody sees through it anyways. Uh, so I've completely overcome that. Like I just wanna get to good answers and better insights and I don't care who has them. It's probably not gonna be me. That sounds like such a cheesy thing to say, like once you're management, but it's absolutely true. [00:36:00] And. The faster you get over that. And you're willing to say you're willing to like really get into learning mode. Uh, the better, the better your life is the better outcomes. There are, the faster you get ahead. All the things. [00:36:10] George: believe that nonprofits can successfully go out of business. [00:36:13] Soraya: Uh, I used to work at PBS and worked at Lincoln center for a hot second. So I hope not. [00:36:17] George: If I were to throw you in the hot tub time machine, back to your start at classy, what advice would you give yourself? [00:36:25] Soraya: The impatience to be great because the sector needs it. um, just be really unapologetic about that. I think at first you're trying to kind of navigate and make sure you don't rock the boat. I'm all about rocking the boat. If it means it's better outcomes for this sector. And we are really unapologetic about that now, but it took me a little, you know, it took me a second to really own that position. [00:36:46] Um, and I would just, I would just start even faster. [00:36:48] George: is something you think you or your organization should stop doing? [00:36:52] Soraya: I have a million things I should stop doing. One of the things I'm really proud of with our organization is we definitely have a culture of, if you see something stupid and you elevate it and there's discussion and we agree it's stupid, we just stop it. We are actually like very unattached to anything because it's always been done that way. [00:37:07] Um, so I can't think of anything, not cause we haven't done stupid things, but because anything that I know about, I think we've been pretty, uh, aggressive about stopping. I think it's an important skill for any company to have. I will say that or any organization [00:37:19] George: like. [00:37:20] Soraya: it's just, it's just impatient for inefficiency and in, and, and impatience to be great. Like, I really think it comes that that seeps through the, the DNA of, of everyone. So it's not that we can fix it overnight, but if we see something we should, we need to fix or we see something dumb. Yeah. We, we, we try to jump on it. [00:37:35] George: If you had a magic wand to wave across the social impact sector, what would it do? And you can't say just generate a whole bunch of new classy users. Like I'm taking that ability off the wand and no more wishing for more wishes. I'm tired of it. We can't have it. [00:37:47] Soraya: Come on [00:37:48] George: inflation and I won't have it. [00:37:49] Hmm. [00:37:50] Soraya: um, [00:37:51] George: What is your donor [00:37:52] Soraya: Donor retention, fixed donor retention. We're trying in absence of, in absence of a magic wand, we're trying with tech, but fix the donor retention problem, because I also think that talks about are people engaged in the cause. So it's so much more than dollars. It's also about like public engagement with these causes and these missions that is required right. [00:38:09] Alongside the dollars. [00:38:11] George: right now on average 54. [00:38:12] Soraya: Um, our, you know, like our recurring donation or [00:38:15] George: No, just like overall, like, yeah, reoccurring, like I gave this year next year. What percent am I likely? [00:38:20] Soraya: Donor retention across. So there's like a bunch of ways to cut it. It's it's lower than that. Going up fast. If you adopt all of these capabilities, it kind of depends on what you adopt. Um, and it's for the base organization. [00:38:32] I think industrywide not just on classy. It's something like a fifth. I mean, it's something abysmally low. I don't know. Remember the reports are out there. Um, all of these tools we have seen kind of meaningfully increase that long lifetime value, a long retention, um, still lower than I think anybody would like it to. [00:38:49] George: Yeah. So hovers around 20% for you all, [00:38:51] Soraya: Well, not with, not with our recurring and our classy pay customers. So no that's much higher, but, um, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm, [00:38:57] George: Gotcha. Appreciate the sidebar. How did you get started in the social impact sector? [00:39:02] Soraya: I took a semester in college and went and worked full time at amnesty international and the refugee department in DC and loved it. And then started at a strategy communications digital agency for the social sector right after college. So early, as early as you get in my career. [00:39:18] George: What advice would you give college grads looking to enter this sector? [00:39:22] Soraya: Most entry level jobs kind of suck, but. There is always something to be learned. If you really lean in and you try to figure out who is doing interesting things, how can I be of value? How can I work a little harder? Because you get exposure to do interesting things and your job for most of your career is to gain as many experiences as you can. [00:39:40] That doesn't mean job hop. That means whatever you're doing. Try to involve yourself in as much as you can and do it really well. And it will all start coming together into something that looks like a linear career. It just takes a second. So be patient and really lean. [00:39:52] George: What advice did your parents give you that you either followed or didn't [00:39:56] Soraya: Um, I am, uh, I am a little bit intense and I am always trying to like, You know, work really hard to prepare for the next thing to, to, um, set myself up. Well, and I think when I was 15, my mom looked at me and said, you know, you're not gearing up so you can get ready. So your life starts like, this is it. This is your life. [00:40:14] And so it didn't really sit with me. Yeah, that's it. I didn't really sit with me until I had kids, but now I think about it a lot. Like this is it. If I'm not living in the moment, What am I doing back to the com app? the, the grounding efforts are, are, uh, are a dominant part of how I, how I try to operate now. [00:40:31] George: Brilliant. Last hardball question. How do people find you? How do people help you? [00:40:36] Soraya: Uh, come find me on LinkedIn. I am, uh, I am there. I would love, love to connect, go to classy.org. You can contact us there and it's still, um, you know, very accessible team. I would love to chat with anybody who is listening, who wants to learn more, definitely check out the report. But yes, I would love, um, LinkedIn is a, is a great place. [00:40:55] George: thanks for the work you do really excited also about the headways that you're making in the, the GoFundMe and helping nonprofits claim, a larger stake of that, that audience. That's [00:41:07] Soraya: Thank you so much and thanks for the work you do. Um, and I'm so happy to be here. Thanks again.

Theme: Legislating NFTs New proposal released this week from Senators Gillibrand and Lummis Most crypto products would be treated as commodities, not securities NFTs are a new asset class, with further clarification to come no taxes on crypto transactions under $200 Affordable project: https://www.degenlabz.xyz/ - Block_Bounce https://opensea.io/collection/dgnkdz    NFT NewsRantum NFT Market Data,  Cryptoslam.io NFT Headlines: Crypto Legislation Is Coming Altcoin Buzz  Bitcoin miners urge New York's governor to veto moratorium passed by the Senate  Bored Ape Co-Founder Blames Discord After A 200 ETH Security Breach  Forget the Crypto Slump -- Pace is Furthering its Web3 Ambitions by Partnering with NFT Platform Art Blocks  Ethereum's Ropsten proof-of-stake 'test merge' goes live    Transcript:   [00:00:00] George: Today on all about affordable NFCS we're talking about legislating, non fungible tokens. There may be actual, real semi coherent policy making its way through the bowels of our government, which we can cover the high notes and share with that. But first, Andrew, how's it going? Anything new in the wallet? [00:00:24] Andrew: Oh, new and the wallet. Uh, man, I wasn't actually ready for that. I did pick up, uh, our blocks most recent. Um, it was recent curated piece. Uh, most our curated collection as a collection of 500 a day picked up one of those and luckily was able or picked up two of them was luckily, luckily lucky in my, uh, mince and got one re uh, rare gold one in there. [00:00:47] So I was happy with that. Um, kind of a cool piece that it, uh, They all generate noise from them. And it's a, there's a digital piece to it, but it doesn't actually loop. So it's, it's interesting. They're not, um, on the surface as just individual pieces, they don't look all that interesting. But we, when you dive into it a bit more, it's, uh, there's more going on there. [00:01:08] So how about you, you pick up anything. [00:01:10] George: Well, a couple of our projects, which I'll disclose, uh, a couple of deejaying kids and a admitted, uh, and to start Tosha, which may come up as a future project, but I have disclosed it and we shared it in our discord. I also, for whatever reason, I can't, I can't say no to two breeding horses. I got a couple, I got a couple of mayors that are just fantastic horses and I just keep breeding. [00:01:32] I'm not sure why [00:01:34] Andrew: you got to do [00:01:34] George: not even, I'm not even naming them yet. [00:01:36] Andrew: you gotta click buttons. You gotta put transactions on that chain. It's just, uh, it's, it's addicting. You can't get away from it. So even in a bear market, you gotta find something to do, right. [00:01:47] George: Yeah. I want to be clear there's there's no, there's no window to profitability. Unless one of them ends up being like the next, the next great hype, um, which from a probabilistic standpoint is a low breed, decent horses, but it's been rough and the old pony game anyway, let's uh, what's going on in the news. [00:02:04] Andrew: Yeah, well, you know, it's been, been awfully quiet out there for them in terms of trading overall volume has been low, but we do have big news. As you mentioned, we've got. Uh, some legislation that was proposed this week, a bipartisan bill coming from senators, Gillibrand in littleness. Um, so we will get into some of the details of that later, but it is, um, it is nice to see that there's something going on here. [00:02:29] Um, General. It was one of the big things. So for NFTs is that we're going to seem to need to wait and see how these, uh, how inept use will be, will be treated, what they are looking at, creating a new asset asset class for NFTs. So that is that's interesting, you know, we don't know what that means quite yet, but it does mean that there's not really something out there that seems to be a good fit for what NFTs are. [00:02:54] And I would tend to agree with that. [00:02:56] George: Yeah. Well, we currently have is not working so hope. Hopefully there is some intelligence coming. [00:03:06] Andrew: We'll get more into that later on. Um, so another bit of, uh, sort of legislative news here. Was it New York? The state, just a, um, they passed eight are they let's see, they are going to continue. Putting him with a moratorium on against big claim of minded usage in the state. They will not allow Bitcoin mining in the state. [00:03:30] So I, I do find this interesting. I don't see many other, uh, technologies or use cases of electricity that are generally, uh, forbidden. there being other reasons that they're breaking the law. So, um, this is interesting, you know, we'll see, you know, I'm sure that there are what we've already seen, that there are other states that are quite welcoming to, uh, to minors. [00:03:54] Um, but you know, that's also quite a change at some point to at least for, for the Ethereum mining world. So, um, interesting. That this has happened. I think this may, you know, we'll start to see, we've talked about this, how it just becoming a bigger political issue. I think that crypto will become a bigger issue as we go here. [00:04:14] George: Yeah. In general, when you find yourself limiting the freedoms of what Americans can do with public utilities that they pay for, um, Americans don't tend to. It's not a thing. They, uh, they really rally behind. [00:04:26] Andrew: No. Oh, and it would not be a podcast episode without talking about a scan and of course, board apes. And I don't mean that those always go together, but we do see a lot. We do see a lot in this time was it was a 200. Security breach after someone gained access to their discord, posted a link for minting, some sort of new project. [00:04:49] Of course, people Abe right into that, uh, before verifying if it was a legit link or not was not spent 208th. So, um, one of the board, eight founders after this came out and blamed discord security on this, you know, at seams. Uh, I don't know. It seems like board the board ape or the Yugo labs team seems always seems very quick to point the finger at someone else when something goes wrong. [00:05:18] A lot of other projects have had these issues happen and they take responsibility and deal with it. And you know, it's certainly not the first discord scam that we see not going to be the last and it's not unique to subordinate. [00:05:33] George: So for those of you keeping track, it was a theories fault that they duffed the mint and there were problems there. So they're gonna build their own layer. Uh, it was probably Facebook's fault when their Instagram got hacked and people got stolen. It's now discourse all that. They lost their passwords and password management for it. [00:05:53] So right now, just to keep telly at home on their to-do list is build their own layer. One, build their own massive photo sharing website and mobile app to compete and basically fix what's wrong with Instagram and all. Recreate discord, a, a massive online community for secure, uh, conversations in groups. [00:06:13] I feel like they got a great roadmap here. [00:06:16] Andrew: Yeah. I mean, I think I've seen this playbook before, you know, startups that just decide that they can take on everything in the world because one thing's going well, it's it usually works out quite well. Right. Is that, is that true or do they [00:06:30] George: I never read to the end. [00:06:31] of any story or book. So I'm always on the, like the heroes rise and never get to the conclusion of anything. So I see nothing wrong with this pattern of behavior. [00:06:41] Andrew: good. Yeah. All right. Yep. So Turkey's doing well too, right? Never get to the end. What their, [00:06:50] George: No spoilers. [00:06:52] Andrew: all right. So actually I should mention that the board ape community. The, or the dowel or the members of the Dow. So those are eight token holders just voted against the proposal to move to a new chain or to start their own chain, whatever it was, they want to stay on the Ethereum network. It was a relatively close, uh, vote. [00:07:14] I think it was about. I came on 55, 50 7%, uh, against moving off of a theory them. So there were a couple of large holders. I think there was one that actually had about 17% of the votes. So, um, he realized that ha only takes a few holders to, to really swing things there. And, uh, they are staying on Ethereum, which as we've said, I think is the right move. [00:07:34] That's where they got their start and it has helped them immensely. So I think that's good, but you see a large part of the community still wants to leave the network. [00:07:42] All right. Next one here. We've got, uh, pace, uh, the pace, art, art gallery, or art. Uh, what do you call it? That I know the name pays art. Um, but they're partnering with. Um, just ahead of NFP NYC, sounds like they will have a gallery open during the event. Um, so certainly it lends more credibility to, to generative art, uh, such as those that are, uh, produce bone, the art blocks platform [00:08:13] George: Yeah, you love following the, uh, the art box stuff. And, you know, we talked about not NYC. She getting ready for a ride. You punch your ticket yet. [00:08:22] Andrew: going soon, going soon. [00:08:24] George: Nice. [00:08:26] Andrew: And then one more, uh, we mentioned this here, that we've got the Ethereum proof of stake customer has gone live. So what does that mean? It means that one, the first test that they have several test networks of the Ethereum network, the first one for the, the merged. Ben talked about where proof, where a theory that moved from a proof of work to proof of proof of stake network. [00:08:56] Um, the they'll do, I think it's three or four. I think it's three different networks to test this out. The first one's gone live, it seems like it has gone. Uh, there was one little, uh, issue that. Figured out pretty quickly. So that is good news. They'll continue to do some work tests. Sounds like if everything goes well. [00:09:14] Um, if ever as far as testing here that the merge could be live by August. Uh, one of the core developers of Ethereum has said that it would be no later than December, so they are pretty confident or they're very competent that it will come this year. Um, you know, we can talk more about that. We've alluded to, to this in the past, but it will be a big difference for the network as far as for, for, uh, NFT users for collectors. [00:09:40] It shouldn't really make much of a difference in order to make any difference in what we're experiencing or doing on the network, but it will be big for, um, uh, for some of the arguments against NFTs and also for, uh, the scalability of Ethereum in general. [00:09:56] George: Yeah, I think we've put off having a speculation of what this means, because the mergers like this they've mythically talked about it as early as 2017. So, you know, keep that in the back of your mind, but this is a very, very positive, real code, real push and real example of something going well overall, you know, the highlights is that it won't decrease the cost of gas. [00:10:16] So, you know, transferring your NFTs are still going to be ridiculous at the time and wait for gas. It will, I believe increase, uh, the underlying asset for a number of reasons, which means that your. And FTS will, you know, appreciate it, that at that value. Um, and it's a good sign for, for that network and the base hopefully, but who knows? [00:10:40] I feel like we should do an episode on it and just speculate. It's not ready though. I want to wait until like July when it's like more of like a, an incoming thing, [00:10:49] Andrew: it's coming. July. July is around the corner. I mean, here, this, this episode is what we are getting towards. Yeah. We're mid junior. [00:10:58] George: it? A late? Let's wait for a few more tests. Net runs, and then we'll just speculate on, uh, what we think the merge might do to NFTs [00:11:05] Andrew: absolutely. We should. I love to speculate and then be wrong. [00:11:10] George: and then delete. Do you ever go back into the edit it? No, we're too lazy for that. All right. Do we have yes and affordable project. Okay. [00:11:20] Thank you block bounce for sharing this, uh, pretty ridiculous project D Jen's NFT. And you know, I'm not quite sure where to begin other than first off, you have to go to this website, but also like Warren be warned when you do, because it's, um, it's very noisy. [00:11:43] And so with this kids, it's, uh, I have thousands of collection of 5,000 of these things. And I can't even think with this noise, it's a collection of. Yeah, 5,555. The creators are doxed. The actual leader of it is a very, very young, I think they're like 22, but also there's like a web dev involved. There is a marketer involved. [00:12:13] So, you know, you actually know this team. The actual art is pretty simple. I'd say this, you know, comic base, but they're trying to harken back. There's windows themed website and there's like flappy birds on it It's hilarious. It looks like literally like your windows 95 background is so there I'm missing new drops and other pieces around that current floor sits around 0.03 for, uh, owner to item ratio is about 50%. Which is kinda, which is good, you know, in terms of distribution and they have an active discord though. It's a little weird because I'd say that the number of people in this discord is far more than the number of holders. There's always like, all right, they may have juiced, uh, they may have do some numbers, uh, along the way, uh, to have a total number of discord legions at 34,000, but only have 27 holder 2,700 holders means yes, Yeah, they did some, some hacks to get that number, number, number, go up. [00:13:11] Andrew: Yeah, it definitely looks like they've played around with those numbers a bit. I love the love, the website here, windows 95. I actually had clicked off that, came back to it and was trying to figure out what was going on, on where the page went, because there was just all sorts of lines, moving all over my screen and then realized that they built in a screensaver for this site as well. [00:13:33] So it's a, it's a really cool site. I like it. I hadn't heard about this until we were just talking about it right before the show here. So checking it out. I do like the, uh, like the art here. They're all animated little pieces or if they all have an element of animation, um, That is, I don't love when I see the numbers being way off like that, you know, I, uh, uh, you know, I'm sure that it's, it's, we know that it's not the most common, um, practice out there, but you know, like to see when things do grow organically, um, you know, and I'm sure that it sounds like they are doing that as well, because we've definitely had this bro, you know, thank you for bringing this to us, uh, block balanced by the way, you know, so they're definitely getting organic growth as well. [00:14:15] So that's good to see. [00:14:17] George: Full disclosure. Three of these things around somewhere, uh, they've got this poison drop coming, but they're doing it in a clever way. Well, they'll, you know, drop an extra thing that as they claim will be. Important in their ecosystem, but you have to have an unlisted, so you can see there, they're playing the game. [00:14:36] They're trying to get people to D lists so that they can more quickly like manipulate the floor and manipulate the price and value. Like they're marketers, they're they're savvy and you know, they're, they're going to hustle for a bit. So, um, I wouldn't say this is a long-term hold, but, um, I'm playing the game. [00:14:54] I'm playing the game. Cause it's interesting watching these like Freemans and Lomans like some random ones are just taking off, uh, with a team and energy to just, not as many as before now, the overall market was about 5% down over the past week in terms of like NFT volume. But it's still things that are taking off randomly. [00:15:14] Andrew: Yeah, that's true. There's definitely, there's definitely still movement in some projects here and there. It's, it's sneaky because there's like you said, not a ton of volume out there. So you got to look closely to find it right now. [00:15:25] George: Yeah, exactly. And I did, I did see some volume and that's one of the things that actually initially attracted to me or attracted me to it. Like they quickly mint it out. So there was a hype and interest and, you know, Ms. A team with a plan that stocks. Okay. So, you know, my financial advice and talking about JPEGs on the unit. [00:15:41] Andrew: All right. Yeah. Thanks again. To block bounds for bringing that up. [00:15:44] George: Legislating NFTs. I'm excited. I just, I, you know, I, uh, I thought this day would kind of not come, but there are top line points, you know, to pull out that are in this proposed bill. It was, uh, I can't believe that they did this, but guess how many pages the proposed bill was? [00:16:06] Andrew: 69. Was it 69? [00:16:08] George: It was 69. So 69 paid proposal. Somebody did that on purpose [00:16:15] Andrew: Oh, man. Yeah. Well, [00:16:16] George: that doesn't have an [00:16:17] Andrew: there's N yeah, there's no better way to ingratiate yourself to the crypto community than by following the meme. [00:16:26] George: Ha ha you must obey the means, but there, uh, I mean, so actually, you know, in keeping with that, it was it's actually, I'd say net, net favorable, um, one is they're proposing. It'd be no new taxes on crypto transactions under $200. So that's like a nod on saying like, look, if I'm doing it as a transaction, why do I have to pay capital gains on something? [00:16:47] Also acting like a currency. So that is a, that's a huge, huge, huge thing. If you're talking about that, um, people have the right to self custody of their digital assets. That is awesome. Meaning that, um, if you bought something on a platform that was acting as a custodian and they didn't allow you to also get your own wallet involved or export it, like that's not allowed. [00:17:10] And that's a fantastic standard. Another one, most crypto assets are viewed as commodities rather than securities and, you know, super complicated when you get into it. But right now they're looked at as commodities. I think that's good overall because the sec does not like [00:17:28] Andrew: Yes, less SCC involvement I would say is generally a good thing. [00:17:33] George: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, that's the good Cliff's notes on It [00:17:36] Andrew: It would make it a lot more complicated for, for NFT or for crypto projects in general, if everything was a security and you had to basically get here to all of the sec regulations when creating any kind of crypto project. [00:17:52] George: Yeah, very, very common. Mining taxes, mined Bitcoin currently taxed as income at the moment it gets mined. I think this is also like a touch on like defy as well. Like the moment it gets my versus realized. So like, there's a question of like, has this been realized yes or no? And you actually can get stuck with a pretty big tax bill from something that fluctuates in price after it gets dropped to you. And this could also be. You know, you know, we talked about, for instance, like flower fam things that are distributing coins to you, does that happen at the point that it was distributed to you or the point that you move it into its next phase? And that's a big, big, big difference sometimes, especially, uh, speaking to somebody who held Elvis at two different points in time. [00:18:38] And when they were worth a thousand X a different. [00:18:41] Andrew: And which way are they? I'm sorry, I didn't actually see that part. Which way are they going to, are they proposing to legislate that? [00:18:47] George: Yeah. So they're saying that, uh, the bill is proposing that miners will not be taxed after they sell. So it's the moment of sale, not the moment of distribution. Right? [00:18:58] Andrew: Great. Okay. That's yeah, I'd say that's much more fair to, to the minor, you know, there's less pressure to sell them too, because when you, if you're texting on the point that you get it, you sort of need to sell some immediately to cover those taxes. And that's not great either. [00:19:16] George: Yeah. There's a lot of problems there, especially with how quickly, again, like these currencies can change. And, uh, another big one is that stable coins have to maintain a hundred percent reserve intent. Luna. [00:19:29] Andrew: Yeah, that's obviously a good one to have in there after the Luna disaster. Um, although I, you know, I'm not sure that it will, I don't know. I'm not sure it would have prevented that, that problem in general. [00:19:43] George: I mean USD T right. Tether, classically as like, uh, a varied bank of assets that back it, but where it's not entirely clear what those assets. They actually had the firepower to withstand what seemingly was a follow on attack to them. But I think a logic, a lot of those things are just logical. It's like I quit. [00:20:03] I couldn't believe how much common sense was in this bill. And I was, I was shocked actually. [00:20:08] Andrew: Yeah. I mean, it seems good overall, you know, we, you know, it would be great to get some more clarity on how NFTs will be treated. Uh, sounds like we are going to have to wait a bit for that. Um, a new asset class makes me think that, you know, there's at least some consideration being given to the accident. [00:20:27] These can't be treated with. With what we currently have in place. And, you know, I'm hopeful that that means that we will find something that I don't know isn't treating every sale with under a year, like a short-term capital gains sale. Um, I, you know, I think that we need to find a better way because the taxes right now in, in on NFTs are, it's a big, it's a big cost when. [00:20:55] When you're trading these and you know, at this point, there's certainly, it's certainly difficult to say that you're going to buy and hold for over a year. Um, and in most cases, [00:21:07] George: But think about the functionality as well, that is ultimately hampered in any sort of forge mechanic. Right? So for a thing where I have to take two entities and merge them together to get a new thing, what did I just do? I just incurred a short-term capital gain tax on. Those those assets. And now I have this new asset, like it simply doesn't work treating it as this type of commodity with these types of, uh, short-term long-term gains, uh, involve it. [00:21:34] It's hampering the tech in the same way that when online stores and e-commerce first came out and they were like, well, how do we do sales tax? Because it's on the online, each individual statement still like a bit confusing, but there are some standards that have rolled out that said like, okay, here's a new technology and a new way that things need to operate. [00:21:52] Andrew: Yeah. I mean, something that did happen, you know, you're right. That, that did take time for taxes to roll out with correctly with e-commerce and, you know, brought to mind. Amazon fought against those for so long. And then once they sort of had their position, you know, we're quick to, to fight for tax laws being put in place. [00:22:14] And I do hope that, you know, we, aren't looking at another situation where it's helping the current, uh, or the established players and, and at a, at a detriment to, uh, to. Players that are coming up in the crypto market possessed. We know we're still very young here and we need a lot more new things coming up. [00:22:35] So I hope that that is, you know, that we are really fostering innovation in this space. When, when this, uh, built is finalized. [00:22:44] George: Yeah, I didn't see any note on like when this might. Come through at all. I feel like they have a slow summer to get here, but I'd imagine sometime this year. [00:22:56] Andrew: Yeah, I would hope so. Um, you know, Uh, well I'm sure. See lots of, uh, political, um, I don't know, arguing about this as we get to midterm elections as well, because I think that, you know, as I say, I think crypto will become a bigger and bigger issue in elections and politics in general. [00:23:17] George: I think you're right. The crypto friendly politician and policy was going to be a very, very quick button to get pressed for money. Little thing I know about politicians, they like money. And so if you're saying that, Hey, we're crypto friendly and I have crypto friendly policies. See right here, you're going to get support from the community. [00:23:38] You know, notably, you know, same Sam Bain and freed said he may be dropping. Seriously, billions of dollars on this election cycle. And it wasn't saying that it wasn't going to be explicitly around crypto, but let's be honest. If a crypto multi-billionaire is becoming a, you know, active political force, it may Dawn on you that you may have the need to have a crypto policy in mind. [00:24:04] And probably be one that is semi favorable as are frankly. Most tax law policies that favor the rich in our country. Anyway. So like you're, even if you have small bags, you're like you're on a big wagon. I think. [00:24:20] Andrew: Yeah. You know, it's a good way of putting it. Um, you know, we do have to hope that these people, we have to hope that the crypto industry fights the right way and you know, and it does make me concerned. There's a lot of really big bag holders that don't necessarily need to, uh, that don't have the, aren't looking for the same outcome as a lot of other people that are in crypto as most of the people that are in crypto. [00:24:48] Um, you know, and they, you know, just be careful, I guess, as we're, as we're getting into this, the pro crypto, um, stance can be a wide range of things. [00:24:59] George: Yeah, that's true. There's a lot that fits under that umbrella. And it's easy to paint right now with one brush because there's, there's only like X number of million wallets involved, but once that starts getting up there, there's going to be a wider array, I think is really good though. A reminder of how early we are in NFTs, like genuinely early, like the asset class and tax laws have not even been established for this technology yet. [00:25:27] And now once it does get there and you'd have the U S government taking seriously, the idea of crypto and non vulnerable tokens and this idea of digital ownership as something that's going to be passed into law. And once it does, it will definitely. everyone is not coming, but it is a strong narrative for why this is not a fad and why this will be here over a longer period of time. [00:25:52] Andrew: Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing the, uh, the NFT section of the wall street journal at some point. [00:25:58] George: Oh, the fact that they're not selling their own pages, just silly, like sell your own bed, like the times should be doing it every day. It's such a no brainer for money. I just feel like there are just stodgy humans that are just like, we can't do it on principle. Like cool. Is that the same principle that lets you run all those ads? [00:26:17] Andrew: Hi magazine has managed to move ahead. Somehow nobody was paying attention to time magazine for a long time. And. They decided to get active in NFD isn't there. I don't know. They're certainly they're active and they're doing new things. And I think they're bringing in a whole lot more in digital revenue than they were before. [00:26:40] George: Yeah. Well, when your back is against the wall, you tend to try new things. And so there you go, right? Desperation brings out innovation. All right. that's what I got. We'll follow it. If there's a new, a new vote or something moved on it. I love speculating on this kind of thing, but positive. Wow. Positive things. [00:26:59] Andrew: All right. Good talking to George. [00:27:02] George: See ya.    

A new assignment for George and Schumacher. Charlotte and Gen. Adams are ready to close the deal. Will Gov. Lewin help Samantha? Gen. Wilkes updates the Consul. Henry Hobbes and Dr. Schnieder begin to execute their plan. Cast: Scene 1 Capt. Roberts : Pete Lutz Mayor Schumacher : Scott Slagle Lt. Ramsay : Van Riker George Cooper : J Dean Garcia Soldier : Daniel French Scene 2 Charlotte Knox : Ilana Labourene Marie Knox : Katelin Curtis Sen. Harper : Rosanna Jimeno General Adams : Rich Green Sen. Michaels : Anne Ghrist Assistant : Daniel French Scene 3 Samantha Cooper : Victoria Fancki Susan Cooper : Nina Bricko Gov. Lewin : M A Doerfler Sheriff Dietz : Daniel French Nick Hobbes: Joe Brillion Scene 4 Consul Nathaniel : Blake Benlan Vice-Consol Calhoun : Katelin Curtis Benjamin Danton : Spencer J Fredrick Gen. Wilkes : Van Riker Dr. Meighan : Rosanna Jimeno Lars : Daniel French Scene 5 Henry Hobbes : Pete Lutz Dr. Schneider : Spencer J Fredrick Jailer : Nina Bricko   Production, Music, Foley, and Sound Design by Daniel French at Fishbonius Sound Design     Transcipt Generation Zombie Season 2, Chapter 2 “Unknown Expiration Date” by Steven Chisholm   NARRATOR: DZ-6, Porterville Town Hall ROBERTS: You certainly have exquisite taste in furniture, Schumacher. Is this desk of yours mahogany?  SCHUMACHER: Nothing so lavish, I'm afraid. It's cherry wood. ROBERTS: Nevertheless, a fine piece… Lieutenant Ramsay, you have the battle plans for Embalmersfield on hand? RAMSAY: Yes, sir. SOUND: UNRAVELING OF MAP. ROBERTS: Place it on the desk, if you will. SOUND: SMOOTHING OUT MAP ON DESKTOP. Wonderful. SCHUMACHER: You really do have this raid all planned out. ROBERTS: Yes, but there's been a slight change in plans. SCHUMACHER: Change in plans? SOUND: APPROACHING FOOTSTEPS. SOLDIER: Pardon the interruption, sir. ROBERTS: What is it, Private? SOLDIER: Corporal Cooper is here to see you. ROBERTS: Let him in. SOUND: SOLDIER DEPARTS ROOM. GEORGE ENTERS. George, how can I help you? GEORGE: It's done.  ROBERTS: Yes, I can smell the smoke on your uniform. You did a fine job, Corporal. GEORGE: (TIMID) Thank you, sir. Proud to serve the Life Guard. ROBERTS: I hope you understand why I had you do that. GEORGE: To prove my loyalty to the ULZ… And to preserve the sanctity of the living. ROBERTS: Yes, but you must understand what lead Leanne to such… unfortunate circumstances. Carelessness, sure. But we wouldn't be discussing her premature departure if not for the actions of your sister. It was not I that forced your hand, nor was it your own free will. Samantha, your own blood, was the one that set the blaze. It was treason that reduced Leanne to ashes. Do you understand, Corporal? GEORGE: I understand that she must pay for her crimes. ROBERTS: Good. Now that I'm assured of your allegiance, I must say, you've arrived at the perfect time. GEORGE: You have an assignment for me, sir? ROBERTS: Oh, yes. One that involves Mr. Schumacher, here. SCHUMACHER: Me? ROBERTS: You see this beautiful desk, Corporal? Cherry wood, I've been told by Schumacher. Where once this material was a great tree, producing oxygen for us living folk, now it is mere lifeless timber. But despite being felled, it still serves a purpose. Not nearly as noble a purpose as when it was living, but nonetheless, it functions as a desk on which to plan our annexation of Embalmersfield. Schumacher is much like this tree. He once lived a nobler life but had that privilege stripped away by undeath. Despite his breathless existence, he's still here to serve a purpose, and it's up to you, George, to see that he fulfills his obligation to the living.  SCHUMACHER: I gave you Porterville. What more can I do? SOUND: UNRAVELING PAPER. RAMSAY: Captain, here are the plans you asked for. ROBERTS: Thank you, Lieutenant… Corporal, would you kindly take a look at these? SOUND: ROBERTS HANDING PAPER TO GEORGE. GEORGE: It's… If you don't mind my asking, what am I looking at, Captain? RAMSAY: Allow me to explain, George. This line here, this is you and Schumacher. GEORGE: You have us… You have us heading to Embalmersfield? Alone?  ROBERTS: Correct. SCHUMACHER: As devoted as I am to your cause, you can't expect me to go on this suicide mission. RAMSAY: This isn't a preliminary attack. At least, not in the way you two are envisioning. George, here, is simply to escort you to the outer perimeter of Embalmersfield. A chaperone of sorts to ensure that you're not beset upon by any free-roaming Life Guards. SCHUMACHER: Am I some offering to the enemy? RAMSAY: You're a refugee. SCHUMACHER: I don't understand. ROBERTS: Schumacher… You're going to seek sanctuary in the city of Embalmersfield. You're going to be the mayor who braved the battle and escaped. And when they welcome you with warm blankets and hot cocoa – or whatever it is your kind do for comfort – you're going to cozy up to Governor Lewin. She's no doubt caught wind of the annexation of Porterville, and who better to trust with their defense plans than someone who's faced the might of the ULZ themselves? Schumacher, I'm once again asking you to be our man on the inside.  SCHUMACHER: I… ROBERTS: I'm confident your faith in the ULZ has not wavered. SCHUMACHER: No. No, it has not. ROBERTS: Thank you. And you, Corporal. I know I can trust you with delivering the mayor to his destination. GEORGE: Yes, sir. ROBERTS: Excellent. Ramsay has been kind enough to outline your route. Follow that path closely, and you shouldn't run into trouble. Do you have any questions? GEORGE: Yes, Captain. When do we start? ROBERTS: Meet Ramsay at sunset by the northwest entrance to Porterville. He'll get you both situated. GEORGE: Will do, sir. ROBERTS: You're dismissed, Corporal. SOUND: DEPARTING FOOTSTEPS. SCHUMACHER: And me? ROBERTS: You're free to leave, too, Schumacher. SCHUMACHER: Okay. I'll see you in Embalmersfield, Roberts. ROBERTS: Look forward to it. SOUND: DEPARTING FOOTSTEPS. ROBERTS: Oh, one more thing, Mayor. SCHUMACHER: What's that? SOUND: GUNSHOT. SCHUMACHER: What the–What the hell did you do that for?! ROBERTS: You can't expect them to think you got out of Porterville completely unscathed, can you?    NARRATOR: DZ-1, a crisis room in the White House MARIE: (YAWN) Tired. CHARLOTTE: You're tired? You can take a nap right here. MARIE: I want my bed. CHARLOTTE: You can have your bed after I'm through talking with my friends, here. HARPER: Mrs. Knox, pardon my manners, but is it necessary that your child be privy to our conversations? MARIE: Privy! CHARLOTTE: If only there was someone I could trust to watch her. HARPER: Someone you can trust? Madam, is everything okay? MICHAELS: What about her usual caretaker, Margaret?  MARIE: Bad Margaret! SOUND: DOOR OPENING. ADAMS: I apologize for my tardiness, Mrs. Knox. CHARLOTTE: Apology not necessary. But, before you come in, can I have a quick word with you outside? ADAMS: Of course. CHARLOTTE: Excuse me, please. Come on, Marie. SOUND: FOOTSTEPS, AS CHARLOTTE MOVES TOWARD CRISIS ROOM ENTRANCE. DOOR CLOSING. CHARLOTTE: Has she said anything, yet? ADAMS: She's remaining tight-lipped, Madam, but I'm confident she's withholding something from us. We've just begun a search of her quarters. If something comes up, you'll be the first to know. CHARLOTTE: How long can we reasonably hold Margaret? MARIE: (UNCOMFORTABLE GROAN) ADAMS: We're certainly running out of time. Legally, she can remain detained for another twelve or so hours. CHARLOTTE: Then let's hope we can get something out of her by then… Come on, let's get back in there. SOUND: DOOR OPENING. FOOTSTEPS TO SEATS AT TABLE. Mrs. Speaker. Senator. You both have my sincerest apologies for the delay. ADAMS: Speaker Harper. Senator Michaels. Always a pleasure. HARPER: Welcome, General. MICHAELS: Yes, hello. MARIE: Hi! CHARLOTTE: I called this meeting to discuss any further intelligence you all may have gathered. As you're all well aware, the Vice President remains on a diplomatic mission in the Zombie's Republic of China. With her absence extending until the eve of the centenary, it's fallen on us to determine our next steps. HARPER: I'll reiterate what I said during our last meeting, as I'm sure the Senate Majority Leader will agree, I believe appropriate action is to quell this rogue Life Guard unit and seek reparations after. As Danton said, there's no need to declare war. MICHAELS: Even if you wanted to, Madam, you do not have the votes in Congress to pass a formal declaration of war. HARPER: But speaking of Danton, I've yet to establish any communication with him since touching down in the ULZ. Though, with President Knox's recent correspondence, it appears negotiations are still underway, despite this misstep from LZ-4. ADAMS: Misstep? With all due respect, Mrs. Speaker, it was a god-damned genocide.  HARPER: And you're seeing to it that it doesn't happen again. Am I correct? ADAMS: The 40th infantry will touch down in Embalmersfield within the hour. But further lives are at stake. If the Consul is unable to gain control over this rogue regiment, there is sure to be bloodshed. MICHAELS: Congress is not yet prepared to declare war, General. ADAMS: Did you hear any utterance of that word leave my lips, Senator? MICHAELS: No, I did not, but we've received reassurance from President Knox himself that the ULZ has this situation under control. Let us not also forget that Embalmerfield is also receiving the help of LZ-11. ADAMS: And if evidence points to the contrary? MICHAELS: Then you will have the full support of Congress to do as you please. Just know that the commander-in-chief also has a say. I've communicated our response to LZ-1, and they are aware of our accompanying reinforcements in Embalmersfield. Both regiments have received orders not to engage with one another and to instead address the threat from LZ-4. ADAMS: Pardon me if I take less credence in their reassurances. A division of their army has lain waste to a town full of innocents, after all. HARPER: The time for drastic steps is not now. I think we all agree, our top priority is stamping out this band of saboteurs. CHARLOTTE: Our top priority is getting my husband back. MARIE: I miss dad. CHARLOTTE: I know, dear. Me, too. MICHAELS: Nevertheless, the president is still engaging in negotiations with the Consul, and until he's– SOUND: KNOCKING ON DOOR. CHARLOTTE: (SIGH) Can someone see who that is? SOUND: DOOR OPENING. ASSISTANT: Excuse the interruption, Madam. We've just received further correspondence from the president. CHARLOTTE: Another recording? So soon? ASSISTANT: Yes, Mrs. Knox. CHARLOTTE: Well, if you could all pardon me while I listen to this, I'd be greatly appreciative. I will send for you when we can resume this meeting. SOUND: ADAMS, MICHAELS, AND HARPER GET UP AND BEGIN LEAVING THE ROOM. MARIE: Bye-bye! CHARLOTTE: General, if you wouldn't mind sticking around for this. ADAMS: Oh, of course, Mrs. Knox. SOUND: ADAMS RESUMES SITTING AT HIS CHAIR. DOOR CLOSES AS MICHAELS AND HARPER DEPART. CHARLOTTE: It's great to hear my husband's voice, General, but I can't shake the feeling that something's off. ADAMS: I don't think you need me to tell you my position on the matter.  CHARLOTTE: I mean, I always knew communication with the ULZ was shoddy, but how is it I'm not able to speak directly to him? ADAMS: I agree with your suspicions. Something isn't adding up, which is why I took the liberty of tacking on some extra reinforcements to Embalmersfield.  CHARLOTTE: Extra reinforcements? What do you mean? ADAMS: I've directed the 75th Ranger Regiment to defend Embalmersfield. CHARLOTTE: Jesus, General! You don't think that's a little overkill? ADAMS: With two ULZ regiments converging on the city – friend or foe – we can't be too careful. CHARLOTTE: (SIGH) Let's hope our suspicions are false, then. MARIE: Bed now? CHARLOTTE: Soon. Very soon.   NARRATOR: DZ 6, the Governor's Office in Zonal Capitol, Embalmersfield SAM: … And that's when Sheriff Dietz helped us escape. We were pursued by the Life Guard but were fortunate enough to shake them before arriving here. LEWIN: I'm… speechless. And you're sure of what you saw? NICK: Yep, homicidal soldiers-in-training. Zombies in cages. DIETZ: And I can attest to everything following their arrival in Porterville. LEWIN: If what you say is true. We must get word to the president. DIETZ: Good luck with that. From what I hear, he's so entrenched in those peace negotiations in the Consulate, hardly anyone can get a hold of him.  LEWIN: I'll make some calls. The public must be made aware of these zombie traffickers. Who knows how many ULZ loyalists reside within our borders? And what could they be doing with those poor kidnapped folk? NICK: Target practice, for one. Immolations. Who knows what else? They'd run out of matches if they were to execute every captured zombie. SAM: Nick's right. My brother talked about Life Guard members being ordered to transport “cargo” to LZ-1. Conveniently, those missions were around the time a whole batch of zombies would suddenly go missing from our cells.  SAM'S MOM: Oh, George… I wonder how wrapped up in this mess he is.  LEWIN: (STRESSED SIGH) Well let's hope we can rely on those troops coming from LZ-11.  DIETZ: Come again? NICK: LZ-11 troops? LEWIN: That's right, you've probably been a bit preoccupied, but the Consul has offered the help of LZ-11's Life Guard to defend Embalmersfield against the rogue Life Guard units. Fortunately, we've received word that the 40th infantry will be touching down any minute, so in the event that LZ-11 is a Trojan horse, our troops should handily stamp that out. SAM: A Life Guard regiment ordered to protect zombies? I never thought I'd hear anything like that. Life Guard soldiers – at least where I'm from – are taught to despise the undead. Taught to kill them at any and every opportunity. SAM'S MOM: Governor, they're called “Life Guard” for a reason. They would never raise a hand to their own. LEWIN: Do you expect me to just call off their reinforcements? I'm afraid it's a bit late for that. NICK: What's that supposed to mean? LEWIN: The LZ-11 troops are set to arrive by tomorrow morning. SAM: Can you order them to camp just beyond the border? Or at least intercept LZ-4's force south of here? Allowing Life Guard within the city is a recipe for disaster. LEWIN: For Christ's sake, I'm not a tactician. But they're landing in the airfield on the outskirts of the city. I've been in communication with General Adams, and he assured me that we have the full support of the federal government. My heart goes out to the people of Porterville, truly. It was unforgivable what those LZ soldiers did, but we have something they didn't have. Time and a whole lot of guns coming our way. SAM: Then use this time wisely and find a way to keep those soldiers out of your city.  LEWIN: Okay, but right now, those reporters are tearing at each other's flesh to find out about you lot. I need to give the people answers. Once this press conference is over, I'll consider negotiating LZ-11's defensive position. SAM: By then, it could be too late. LEWIN: Listen, I know you all have been through hell, but there's nothing to worry about here in Embalmersfield. Sam, you and your mother have known nothing but the LZ your whole life, but we here in the DZ are well-versed in the might of our military. If you think even two LZ regiments can stand against one of ours, you're sorely mistaken. DIETZ: This girl ain't been wrong yet. I urge you to at least consider what she's said. LEWIN: Like I said, it's been taken into consideration. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to address the people. SAM: You're making a mistake taking this so lightly. LEWIN: Help yourselves to whatever you need. SOUND: DEPARTING FOOTSTEPS. DOOR OPENS AND CLOSES. DIETZ: And this is why I always say, you can never rely on a politician.   NARRATOR: LZ-1, a crisis room in the Consular Palace. CONSUL: I'm starving. This meeting was supposed to start half an hour ago. LARS: The catering is on its way, your Consulship.  CONSUL: This shouldn't be taking so damn long. CALHOUN: Not at all. The script wasn't nearly as comprehensive as the previous one. SOUND: DOOR OPENING AND CLOSING. DANTON: I apologize for my tardiness. The president was not very cooperative. CONSUL: If he wants to continue playing games, he can see just how serious we were about our threat. DANTON: Believe me, I kept reminding him about his daughter, but the man's at the end of his rope. Can't blame him really. Being outsmarted by someone working right under your nose must be a significant blow to your ego. CALHOUN: (SIGH) As long as he continues to do our bidding, we won't have to take any unnecessary steps. CONSUL: Leave it to the UDZ to elect such a stubborn, impertinent leader. Nevertheless, Danton, you can take a seat now… General Wilkes, I trust LZ-11 is still en route to Embalmersfield? WILKES: Landing tomorrow, as scheduled. From the airfield, they will march into Embalmersfield and set up a loose – albeit staged – perimeter within the southern border of the city. Fortunately, we were able to reroute more gas canisters to their regiment from LZ-7, so they're well equipped to take Embalmersfield. Of course, the remaining variable is when Captain Roberts intends to launch an invasion on Embalmersfield.  CALHOUN: Has no one communicated the plans to him? CONSUL: No, he will not know anything of this until the day of his attack. An LZ-11 messenger will relay the plan to him on the day, but Captain Roberts is too much of a liability to wantonly relinquish such information. WILKES: Yes, and I've been assured by Doctor Meighan that the canisters LZ-11 have on hand should be enough to cover Embalmersfield and the surrounding districts. The canisters will remain on the C-130s stationed in the airfields after arrival. Just before LZ-4's attack, they'll take off with a skeleton crew to loose the canisters over the city's defenses and most populous neighborhoods. There's likely to be creases in coverage, but our forces should be able to eliminate any surviving targets. DANTON: Is there a plan to hold the city? WILKES: According to the wind predictions, the gas should make the region uninhabitable to the undead for at least a full 24 hours, and the canisters should cause minimal damage to the city's infrastructure. We have LZ-10 on standby. When given the order, they will reinforce Embalmersfield and man the defenses abandoned by the UDZ's troops. CONSUL: Their armaments will make a lovely addition to our military. WILKES: Precisely, your consulship. Despite this change in pace, our invasion should go off without a hitch. And Doctor Meighan's shipments continue to remain on schedule. It won't be much longer until every one of our regiments has enough gas to extinguish an entire city. CONSUL: Ah, and may the living prosper once more. SOUND: KNOCKING ON DOOR. LARS: I'll get it SOUND: DOOR OPENING. Lars : Oh, my apologies. It seems lunch isn't quite ready. CONSUL: Well, then who's at the door? MEIGHAN: Greetings, Consul. CONSUL: Ah, yes. Doctor. Please come in. MEIGHAN: I'm afraid I have some… unfortunate news. CONSUL: (PERTURBED) Go on. MEIGHAN: It's the White House, sir. We've lost communication with our woman on the inside, Margaret. She never filed yesterday's vaccination report for Marie. CONSUL: Could it be that she simply forgot. MEIGHAN: She's a very capable professional, sir. She's not one to forgo something so important as this. DANTON: Wait, you're saying that Marie hasn't received her latest vaccination? MEIGHAN: And without you there, Danton, we have no one else to administer it. CALHOUN: What will happen to the girl if she doesn't receive the vaccine? Will she simply re-zombify? MEIGHAN: The vaccine triggers a response in the patient's bone marrow. Think of it as jump-starting a car. Every injection stimulates the body's stem cells, which in turn produce white blood cells. At some point, her body may retain the ability to produce its own white blood cells, but for now, the vaccine is the only thing setting this production in motion. Over time, her immune system will become weaker as these cells die off, and given her apparent immunity to zombification, the common cold, alone, could be enough to kill her. CONSUL: Thereby giving up our leverage over Knox. MEIGHAN: Precisely. DANTON: That is, of course, worrying, but more concerning still is Margaret. CONSUL: How do you mean, Danton? DANTON: I've noticed she was growing a subtle affinity for the child. Assuming she's been detained, I'm not so sure how long she can keep her lips sealed when it's Marie's life on the line. CONSUL: She'd betray the ULZ for one of them? DANTON: With all due respect, your Consulship. Not one of them. She is indeed one of the living now. Though, for how long, I don't know.   NARRATOR: LZ-1, the cellblock beneath the Consular Palace. HOBBES: Guards! Someone! Anyone! Something's wrong with this man! SCHNEIDER: (SPUTTER, COUGH, and GROAN) HOBBES: I think this man's sick! Anyone?! JAILER: (ANNOYED) I'm coming. I'm coming. HOBBES: He just started gripping his stomach. Rolling around on the ground. Moaning and such. SCHNEIDER: Ugh… (WEAK) Please… JAILER: Christ, man. You look paler than this lumbering stiff next door. HOBBES: Never mind that, this man clearly needs help. SCHNEIDER: (WHEEZE) I can't… (WHEEZE) I can't… breathe. JAILER: Let… Uh, let me go get a doctor. HOBBES: This guy is a doctor. SCHNEIDER: Chest… (WHEEZE) Chest compressions… Please. JAILER: CPR? I ain't done anything like that since I was a greenhorn in the Life Guard. Don't suppose they teach you any first aid in the UDZ, huh? HOBBES: What? Of course not. Just do as he tells you. Look, he's miming it now. JAILER: How do I know he's not faking it? HOBBES: I don't think it's normal for your kind to be that color. Besides, he's half your size. SCHNEIDER: (WHEEZE and COUGH) JAILER: Aw, hell! SOUND: JAILER FIDGETS WITH RING OF KEYS. JAILER: I can't have another prisoner die on my watch. It'll be off to LZ-5 for me. SOUND: PRISONER DOOR OPENS AND JAILER APPROACHES SCHNEIDER. HOBBES: Hurry! JAILER: Okay, so… Lay still, why don't you?! Okay, I just place my hands here and… Oof! What the hell?! SCHNEIDER: (SOUNDS OF STRUGGLING) JAILER: Hey, let go of my rifle! (GRUNT) I said stop! Let go! SOUND: GUNSHOT. SCHNEIDER: (DYING BREATH) JAILER: No… No, no, no. This can't… You saw it, right? You saw it all. He was trying to take my rifle from me. It was… It was self-defense, yeah? HOBBES: Dr. Schneider, no… You… You killed him. JAILER: I didn't kill nobody.  SOUND: FOOTSTEPS TOWARD THE BARS. JAILER TAPS HIS GUN AGAINST THE BARS. And you're going to corroborate that story or else I'll make sure you're first in line at our next barbeque. You understand? HOBBES: You already took my son from me. Your worst can't beat that. JAILER: Look, I'm just asking you to tell the truth of it, got it– SOUND: SCHNEIDER HITS THE JAILER IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD. (PAINED GRUNT) SOUND: JAILER FALLS TO THE GROUND.  HOBBES: (HUSHED) You did it! Great job! SCHNEIDER: You were right; your kind really can't feel a thing.  HOBBES: I–I'm sorry you got shot. That wasn't part of the plan. Do you know if that life-restoring vaccine you guys got will work with a hole in your chest? SCHNEIDER: (SIGH) Tempt fate by saying I have almost nothing to lose, and then this happens. I, unfortunately, know little of what the vaccine does outside a brief explanation from that homicidal maniac, Dr. Meighan. If they intend to use it on the UDZ, especially with the states of decay of most citizens, then I presume it'll work on me. Besides, the bullet narrowly missed my heart. HOBBES: Well, here's hoping it works. Either way, I appreciate your sacrifice. SCHNEIDER: I really underestimated how quickly the virus would take hold. HOBBES: Right, but let's get a move on. I'm sure all this commotion will eventually garner some attention. Not to mention, that jailer seemed like he had a thick skull, so he could be up at any moment. SCHNEIDER: Okay… SOUND: JINGLING KEYS. Why is it prison guards always have such heavy sets of keys? HOBBES: Oh, and don't forget the rifle. SCHNEIDER: Rifle? You know how to use this thing? HOBBES: You don't think I'd pass up on the chance to fire guns at my armor prototypes, did you? SCHNEIDER: Makes sense. HOBBES: Now, get me out of here, and let's go find Nick.   End of episode.

Let's talk Dune Analytics Dune is a platform for analyzing on-chain data via PostgreSQL Most features free Learn how to use Dune (Andrew/Rantum lead lesson on NFT data) Uniswap Community Analytics contest with payouts for all qualified entries    Affordable project: what's on your shopping list: George: Akutars, MoonCats https://opensea.io/collection/acclimatedmooncats?search[sortAscending]=true&search[sortBy]=PRICE  https://opensea.io/collection/akutars  Andrew: FewoWorld, Regulars https://opensea.io/collection/regulars  https://opensea.io/collection/fewoworld-paint?tab=activity  NFT NewsRantum NFT Market Data,  Cryptoslam.io NFT Headlines: Someone Stole Seth Green's Bored Ape, Which Was Supposed To Star In His New Show  Pharma Bro Martin Shkreli: Ethereum's Vitalik Buterin 'Brilliant' But Also 'Full of Shit' - Decrypt  SuperRare in SoHo: NFTs in the Real World      Transcript rough:   [00:00:00] George: on all about affordable and FTS. We're talking about dune analytics. What is it? What can it do for me? Fortunately, we have an expert in house, Andrew who will be able to explain a bit more of that. But first, Andrew, what are you seeing in the news [00:01:01] Andrew: Sorry, I'm just adjusting this wizard hat that I have on over here, of course, because it's not experts. I'm a dune wizard. Sorry. [00:01:09] George: Gotta use the lexicon minus. [00:01:12] Andrew: Uh, Anyway. All right. What are we seeing out there? So this is, this is an interesting one. We've got another, another board aid theft, you know, we've we talk about another crypto theft or scam all the time, but this one is uh, from Seth green. Um, It was with his board aid. I think there were a couple of mutant apes, maybe as well in the wallet, but this, so someone hacked the wallet, they got these. [00:01:35] So, but what's really interesting about this was that he had been developing a animated series using these apps. So he had been working on this since July uh, It's a considerable amount of time that has been put into this. And we've also seen the price rise a lot since July. So he was smart enough to buy them at a much lower price and has been working to put these into an animated series. [00:01:58] He has produced many of them in the past. So um, you know, I think it had a pretty good chance of. You know, seeing uh, seeing some production and get, actually getting out there, but now these have been taken. And there's a question of whether he has the right uh, the IP rights to continue producing the show. [00:02:17] Uh, At least one of the apes was that was stolen, has been resold to another user or another uh, sorry. It's a Twitter user that he's trying to reach out to, to no avail at this point. Um, It seems unlikely that that buyer would have known that it was uh, stolen, but you know, it does bring up some questions about what happens with the IP here. [00:02:43] George: I mean, there's no question. You don't know. You're not on the IP and suddenly you built an asset and some it, you know, what it equates to like domain squatting. You let your domain run out, but then you built this giant company which relies on that domain name specifically because it's built into everything that you've done. [00:03:01] And you're just sitting out there in the breeds. Honestly, you know, the it's tough too, because this is so far into the public sphere of people being like, that's why NFTs aren't safe. I gotta be honest if you're building up that much asset around it, like you shouldn't have had it in a hot wallet, it could have been like click, click the buy on it. [00:03:20] You know, that's, that's when you transfer to cold storage and you put it in a safe, if you're putting that much equity behind it, you know, it's, it's unfair maybe to expect that from the average user to be like, oh, well, you know, you got hacked, it's your fault. But if you're, if you're investing that amount, like, you know, that that's pretty serious. [00:03:38] Um, That's pretty serious that in terms of you have to take your, your. [00:03:43] Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. You know, the only, the only reason I say there's some question about it is that if it's stolen and that person is possessing them, they wouldn't necessarily. Own the IP, but if they've been resoled and the person doesn't have doesn't even have knowledge, you know, I don't know. That's, there's all sorts of questions about this, but I doubt that those will, that the production will happen with the same NFTs. [00:04:07] So maybe there'll be replaced. I think it would be cool to see, you know, to see an animated series with these, you know, and start seeing how people can use uh, use the IP that are, that you get is trying to give to two holders. [00:04:21] George: Yeah, I, you know, my heart goes out to him. It's like, it's, it's tough. You're, you're, that's a hard, hard place to be. And it's clear that he's like trying to make a lot of noise to try to get some sort of public support back. But there's no support customer helpline. There's a wallet with an address and a secret key. Oh, [00:04:38] Andrew: And for some reason that seems to attract all of, all of the people that just, I don't know, see, see opportunity and we'll run a scam and try to do it without calling it a scam. We've got Martin Shkreli coming back out of get fresh out of prison. He's easy already. He says he learned how to use Metta mask while in prison. [00:05:01] Um, He's, you know, all over Twitter spaces talking about this now has called uh, Vitalik Buterin, S as reading this headline, he's told him brilliant, but also full of shit. So, you know, he's wasting no time and stirring up headlines. Can't imagine that he doesn't see all sorts of opportunity in crypto and NFTs. [00:05:23] I would be very wary of, of what he is touching um, and state far away. If uh, if you can help it, [00:05:32] George: Are you suggesting that cult personalities tend to lead toward disastrous outcomes? [00:05:39] Andrew: we have seen a couple, couple [00:05:42] George: Name one name one in the last, in the last two weeks. Just name one. [00:05:46] Andrew: Okay, well dope. What are we counting at once? Or has another one already happened? He may have already rubbed everybody again. [00:05:54] George: You cannot repeat offenders. You can't triple stamp a double stamp. Cool. Uh, Yeah. again. [00:06:02] I joking aside be. Be very wary of cultural personalities and our recent episode, we were just talking about our suspicions of Adam Newman. I don't know when, you know, you are more selling yourself and selling somebody on an idea rather than your actual execution of work. [00:06:19] There's a there's questions. There's questions that come up and it tends that you're, you're serving the ego rather than the true outcome of a. Uh, With, with potential leaders like this, there'll be interested in the watch from the sidelines though, on the plus side, he's very bullish Heath. [00:06:38] Andrew: There we go. [00:06:39] George: He thinks he is going to flip Bitcoins. So in this I support you. Anything you want to do to help that train, let me know. [00:06:47] Andrew: All right. And one more uh, one more thing of note here. Super rare. The art platform has opened up a gallery in New York in Soho. Uh, I think it is a it's. It's good to see these galleries opening up. I think it's a good way to start bringing, bringing the art aspect of this to life a bit more and letting people see this from not just looking at it on their phones or computers and, you know, do this in a social. [00:07:13] Public setting. [00:07:15] George: It just makes also a ton of sense. Cities like New York where there's not a lot of wall space and you can essentially have like, I mean, I've seen your rig and love it. And you've got your art, like on display, rotating through you have one spot and you want to have pieces move through. And it makes a lot of sense actually. [00:07:38] And I could definitely see it as a trend that picks up. Uh, It would help hopefully a longer tail of artists and collectors get in into that practical IRL case of why the heck did you buy that JPEG? It's common. We just, just gotta wait, wait for youth. Not to be under 2000 and the market nut to be bleeding every single week. [00:07:59] I'm not going anywhere though. I'll say that I'm I'm pot committed. I'm full sunk cost fallacy. Um, Alright, affordable projects, the plus side, right. [00:08:11] The plus side of the market's going down is it is time to keep your eye on a shopping list. You know, it's finally not about FOMO. It's about uh, what you know, and where you see long-term value. We played that game of looking back. A year into crypto slam and saying like, oh, this, these are the projects that survived and did. [00:08:31] And right now there's two projects that I'll, I'll continue. Uh, There's more than two, but I'm choosing to, and Andrew, you can have uh, two or, or more, as many as you want as well. So one of the projects I'm going to keep keeping my eye on is . And this is the one that famously had that really sad sort of, I think it was like $30 million mistake on the mint, but they did launch and it is a, you know, a series and put together that has, I think a lot of upside, a strong, a strong team and founder behind it. [00:09:04] And with uh, with avatars, what I also like is that there's a sort of movie plans in the future, so it's not like, oh, and then there'll be a game I'm like, I'm kinda done. I'm done with the game. You're not going to create a game that's going to change value, but I do believe in the raw truth of the more attention you can get in the future uh, the, the better the outcome will be. [00:09:26] And this is a 15,000 unique 3d art guitars. And it's uh, one of the series that have been put out there, help me with uh, the founder's name. I just blanked on it, but the floor price is 0.6. Yeah, Mike and Johnson. [00:09:38] Thank you. Former baseball dropped from that, moved into artists, and that guy is just plain old motivating when you hear him. [00:09:46] And right now, you know, the price at 0.65, I'll say my um, my reservation price on this I'll make a definite buy if this kinda kicks down to 0.5, but you know, it was as high as you know uh, you know, 2.7 from what I see. Um, But there's a lot of things losing speed. And some of them I think, are going to weather the storm. [00:10:08] And I think this in particular for the depth of work amount of motivation and what I like on the roadmap uh, how has my eye, what do you have on your list of shopping? [00:10:19] Andrew: I like that picked there. I have been watching that one as well, actually in tech, definitely [00:10:23] George: What's your reservation price, where you, where are you falling? I'm going to do 1.01 ahead of you. [00:10:28] Andrew: I was going to say, I was going to go, price is right on you. And, [00:10:34] George: I'm just going to be watching your thread. [00:10:37] Andrew: um, So yeah, let's see, I've got a couple of my lists. One is fuel world, which we've talked about in the past. I, that seems like one. That's not getting much attention, but it's one that I think is still worth looking at and looking. I um, I think I'm pretty close to. To pick it up another one there. Um, I think it's, it's a, it's a good longer term hold and. [00:10:59] People are overlooking some of the uh, the rarity aspects there. And uh, I noticed that uh, he posted a few times a few emotions. uh, posted a few times from the econ recently um, doing some paint uh, paint parties there. And I think it's just going to be something that um, I don't know, people pick up on it and just gains more uh, Just just more fans over time. [00:11:24] So I'm still looking at that one. There's some good prices. Look, you know, I think it come it's around a little under 0.3, five right now. And I think, you know, he might be able to get that a little bit lower. Um, If your patient there. [00:11:36] George: Yeah, quick take on that. I a full disclosure. I have two of them. I did pick up. I did like that. It was on my list. Try to get an wait, wait on it. A pink count of two, not a pink count of one. I was looking at doodles and I have a two doodle, but the pink count actually is a big differentiator. And every now and then someone just makes a mistake and listing it and they kind of go for pretty low. So take a look in there. Yeah. [00:12:02] Andrew: those took two minutes essentially. Um, On nifty, when you first admitted those, you had to, you got, if you committed to it, morphed into a, to paint um, NFT. So there maybe. You know, maybe people, a little tired of waiting or that maybe just didn't understand what they were buying initially and thought they were going to get to. [00:12:24] So that's good too. A good note to look for. [00:12:27] George: Yeah. Also uh, another quick hack on that is check the nifty sites so far. It hasn't proven true. The lower prices I've been continually on open. See, but check nifty cause. Confused buyers, especially if there's a sudden shift and impressive beef begins to go up. Um, That'll actually flip the odds Right. now when you dropping, right? [00:12:47] Because nifty gateway is a Fiat first listing And open C is a first listing, which means when those prices fluctuate, where weird things happen. [00:13:02] Andrew: Right. And what else do you have on your list, George? [00:13:05] George: Oh, I'm just checking to see if any recent two painters went for something low to two painter to paint or went for 0.5. I can't turn it off. Two painter went for 0.59. That's interesting. All [00:13:19] Andrew: I've got this next one on here that we've talked about another few times as well. [00:13:24] George: Yeah. I, I feel like I have to say it cause it comes up. I won't, I won't let a good moon get die. Moon cats. Oh, gee ponder where created them. They've been around for quite some time. And, you know, they continue to iterate ponder where there was a recent pump of this. When I probably, I mean, I floated out there to try to flip it, but it's back down to the 0.3 east. [00:13:50] And here's what I think in terms of this play, this team is going to continue to push on it. And even if they don't, it seems like it's, you know, a project pun intended has nine. Where there's a, I believe a future where a lot of this money coming in and they say, Hey, instead of creating a new project, let's pick up one with history and revive it and Potter where has already put it out into the universe that they're willing to sell it for the Right. price, which could drive a lot of attention and upside again, even just the conversation did. [00:14:19] So uh, no one's paying attention to this right now. It's hovering at 0.3. If it drops below that that's my reservation to, to begin picking up. If it's in the mid twenties, [00:14:31] Andrew: Right. Yeah. That's a moon cats. Um, You know, [00:14:34] George: No, more moon cast for you. [00:14:36] Andrew: No, I don't need more moon cats right now. I've got some older ones. Um, You know, I I'd love to see some uh, some more interest pickup there, but yeah, they, you know, it's one that a lot of people still talk about and a lot of people hold just don't pay much attention to. [00:14:50] George: What's the hot take. What's the hot take on, on what the shop for, in terms of new, since you know, [00:14:54] that thing is. [00:14:57] Andrew: Um, Well, you've got, so the rare ones are considered the ones from 2017 um, especially, but 2018. So most of the foreign ones are going to be, or they're all going to be at the 2020 ones. You may want to look for cures. Um, There's a number of different shades to these, but peers tend to hold more value across all of the colors. [00:15:17] Um, Otherwise I'd [00:15:18] George: So that's the code color. So like red, pure, or [00:15:21] Andrew: Yeah. So orange Tabby, I guess, would be the orange Tabby is generally the most expensive of any of the floor pieces. Um, Things that look like characters, things that look like Garfield or um, other famous cats tend to hold extra value. Um, You can also look for things that have twins. [00:15:42] There are, there are collectors that are looking for the twins. You can get even one half of that, you know, you can sometimes end up finding that those have more value. Um, Yeah. You know, I'd also look at, look at the face of it. Um, There's some that don't have the clearest faces, the, and those don't tend to sort of don't tend to send, sell real fast. [00:16:04] Um, It's just based on how the coloring is, you know, the different spots or stripes within the face, but a clear face is generally a preferred when people are buying those. So that's some of the, some of the traits that I know about these, I know more, more, but you know, you feel free to hop in the discord and ask me if you are a [00:16:21] George: Getting that discord, get them talking about moon cats. [00:16:23] He won't stop. [00:16:27] Andrew: All right, I've got one other. And so this is one, this is a newer project, but it was one that I was going to even mention as an affordable project. And the price has been bouncing around a bit. Um, It's now up to about, up to 20. I'm sorry. Point two, four right now. Uh, What I was first going to mention it, it was at like 0.1, eight or so I have um, I have one of these, sorry. [00:16:53] I have two of these, not it's actually in my alt wallet. So wouldn't have noticed this. Uh, But I, I staked one NFTE ex um, where. They were offering a good uh, sticking percentage for putting it there um, was able to pick it up, but a good price. And like I said, it's moved quickly here, so I'm not recommending necessarily jumping into it right away. [00:17:18] I am going to adding link here so people can, can look at it. Um, Uh, Sorry. And so this is a collection of a thousand pieces. It is, I believe that it is. Hold on, let me, let me check that one. Um, It's by the artist pops. So there it's very realistic looking faces um, that it's just called regulars. It's kind of 3d ish faces. [00:17:50] Yeah. The floor is at point just, just under 0.2, four as we speak. So I think that may come down again. So it's one that I'm kind of waiting to come down. I have noticed that there's a lot of people kind of picking up some of the rare traits. At higher prices also, you know, relatively quickly. So, you know, you may, you know, it's worth watching because people list um, you know, certainly don't realize what they're listing at times. [00:18:14] Um, I don't know. It incredibly well. I've looked at uh, things like the type um, and then just various uh, Characteristics like the glasses or hair color to try to, to understand, you know, some of the rarities here, but you know, there's definitely some visual aspect to this. Um, When you're looking at these, I don't know much about the future plans. [00:18:36] I don't know a ton about it. So, you know, don't have the whole in-depth part, but I, you know, got that the one in starting to look a little bit more at these. Um, And yeah, like I said, that price has run out, but. Does it makes me, it makes me want to jump in and realize that I shouldn't do that because I should wait for that pro that for, to fill back in. [00:18:56] And, you know, I think we will see that a bit here. So it's one that I'm watching and looking for a good entry price for more, you know, as I said, I did do, I did get one. [00:19:06] George: Yeah, this like it launched in 20 21, 11 21. So in November of 2021, and then sort of like, I mean, it drifted at 0.03 for quite some time. so that's like, those are the times to find these projects. That's what we're trying to do with some of the shopping here. I see. It's like beginning to taper off from that, that recent peak where it, and it got the 0.5 as a, as a floor for Ethan. [00:19:32] It seems to be calming a little, but it's hard, hard to tell from the peak trough here. Interesting Sama. And I just added my watch list, but I got a lot of stuff here. I think um, I'm really hopeful that I can pick up a knock guitar. And affordable thing and I have to sell a thing to get that done. Really trying to be judicious about how much more money I'm pumping in cold. All right. Our theme. Um, Yeah, let's talk to an analytics, What are we talking about? [00:20:04] Andrew: Yeah, so an analytics uh, I use this tool every day. It's a lot, like I use this for a lot of work, but I also use it to, you know, just to start analyzing things that I need more information on this. Lets you look at anything on the blockchain, any transactions that are happening on the Ethereum network on polygon on optimism. [00:20:23] Uh, I think that. The electric, maybe a couple others as well, but you can use basic sequel queries to start looking up information on this and then present it to, you know, being able to visualize this in a very uh, you know, very easy um, graphs, charts, tables um, make something of this blockchain data, you know, it sounds, I don't know. [00:20:48] I think in some ways it sounds more complicated than it is. Um, If you. SQL is a relatively um, relatively approachable programming language that a lot of people use for, for maintaining databases it's been around for, I don't know, 30 years or so. Um, So it's, it's a lot of documentation on it and it's relatively. [00:21:10] Approachable to, to get going on this platform with, with not without a ton of knowledge of the coding language. So I think that's, that's really powerful because otherwise you're looking at, you know, trying to read blockchain data in a completely different way. It's, it's much more complicated. This makes it relatively easy to see um, what aspects are making up um, each transaction um, from there. [00:21:38] I mean, you can take it to any number of uh, any number of degrees of how much you want to look into it, what you want to cross the, the data with, you know, look at various wallets specific activity. Um, You know, it's, it's really endless how much you can uh, start working or continue looking into transactions once you. [00:21:58] George: What's really great. Here is also if you have a project and you're kind of wondering about it, it gives you another place to drop it in. You can do a search and see if anybody has built a custom dashboard for it. Uh, Built for various communities that have literally hired you to build out these custom dashboards. [00:22:13] And then those dashboards are public. Most of the stuff on dune seems to be just open in the air because that's how they essentially have built it unless you're paying for like a premium membership to, to make it private. So there's a lot of quality stuff out there. And if you're. Looking to get into it. [00:22:28] You can always, I feel like you can, am I write, copy these things as a template and then modify them and kind of learn from what the queries that are already in place are [00:22:38] Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you can fork any of these, you know, that these different term for it, because then that sounds so much better than copying someone's work, you know, or just forking that work a fork in these dashboards. And that is really one of the cool things. If you see that, you know, if you see that there's a great. [00:22:53] Dashboard for neat bits or whatever. And you just want to do that same exact dashboard for um, you know, for act Qatar. Um, You can go, just get the contract address. You swap out the contract address and you're looking at the exact same information just for a different contract. Um, That's one of the things that I've done with my dashboards is try to make it so you can put any contract address rate in there so you can make these. [00:23:18] Um, You can customize them to whatever the project is that you're using, but I can go for it. That goes for anything on the platform. And I mean, there's some really impressive dashboards, both for NFTs and for uh, Nate, just crypto work in general. I mean, any, any crypto project, it seems has a dashboard in there. [00:23:36] Um, I know that there's looked at some, some uh, search query data and they definitely get people looking for. You know, for um, moon, moon cats dune on, you know, there are people searching for that kind of thing on Google. Um, There are people looking for doing specific dashboards when they go into Google, which I think is uh, it's interesting that, you know, it has that sort of name recognition already. [00:24:03] Um, It has been around for awhile. It's a real. Relatively old the team in the crypto space, they launched, I think back in 2018, but I think they are a team of under 10 until this year. So it's been um, been around, but they have been able to do. a platform that um, I don't know that they can deal with all sorts of different parts of crypto. [00:24:28] We've seen, you know, defy be extremely popular. We've seen obviously NFTs rise in popularity and it's been able to be used for, you know, for all of these different use cases, which I think says a lot about both the platform and the nature that we're all working on the same, Ethereum, blockchain, you know, granted, I said other other layers as well, or. [00:24:48] But it's pretty cool that this data it's all there, we're working on the same thing. And no matter what the transaction is, we're using the same chain. [00:24:57] George: I'd say the good parallel here is kind of like Google analytics and data studio in some ways, if you're in the marketing world and to that end, I think there's a huge upside. If you're trying to get a job in crypto, you're really trying to like actually refine a skill, like no offense to our super abilities here to pick out affordable projects and run a podcast. [00:25:17] For a tangible, freaking skill. Like you have this course, we have linked to it directly in this episode, start there, start somewhere. But like, this is sort of raw skill. This doesn't have to do with coding. Cause frankly, Luke, look, we're not all going to suddenly switch our day jobs. You know, chain, chain on chain coders like that, you know, that's a different path, but certainly I think there's a lot more intelligence that could be built into a lot of projects. [00:25:45] A lot of creators that do this, but there's a whole whole world. And like, you're one of the top creators on this platform and you know, not gonna, not going to give too much away, but you, you taught yourself this, like you went from zero to like, let's figure this out. You knew a bit about code in the past, but you've uh, you know, you've been able to March up the way. [00:26:02] Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. That is, it's a very, I mean, it's a relatively easy way to get involved and start working a bit in the space. Um, As I didn't learn this a lot on my own, I knew a lot about SQL already, so that definitely helped. And it worked a lot with platforms like Google analytics. If you've used any of these things, then, you know, it's, there's a way in to learning this platform. [00:26:26] Um, One of the, I mean, like I said, one of the cool things is that you can just build on top of what other people have done. But one of the things that I really liked is that there's a ton of bounty opportunities and these. Paid opportunities to, to do work. Um, In some cases it's, it's just paid to one person. [00:26:43] In other cases, it may pay, be paid out to all the participants um, actually serve on a committee of, with the unit swap grants um, program. And this is part of unit swap and they've gotten a grant to uh, community grants. So we get the name exactly of it. Um, But the idea is that we're helping to uh, Provide a bounty or we're creating bounties to get people involved in the um, the unit swaps community um, by looking at these analytics in different ways. [00:27:16] And usually that's usually we have one that is very low end, relatively easy, meant for beginners to get in. And everybody that enters that gets some kind of boundary, as long as they um, actually complete the task. And then we've got a higher end one. More competitive, but there's a much bigger, I think it's a thousand dollar bounty on that one where I think it's, you know, I think it's maybe a hundred dollars on the entry one, so that's still a relatively nice amount to be able to get to do. [00:27:45] But um, the other part is once you start doing these and can build something. a ton of uh, there's a ton of people. There's a ton of demand out there. If w we're looking for more work in this, and I think that's just going to grow because it, most, most of these web three businesses aren't even paying attention to these analytics quite yet. [00:28:05] It's, you know, there's not enough people working in the industry. And as we've said, there's more and more money being, you know, being invested in the space. [00:28:14] George: The other cool thing that I like about doing is that you can embed. Natively into a website. They're really just sort of unpretentious about like, oh Yeah. sure. Take it, run with it, go do it. And you know, on three AFT you'll find a lot of those dashboards embedded on, you know, random in your site. You're going to find a lot of those dashboards as well, embedded. [00:28:32] So you could spin up a full fledged, you know, analytics tool with uh, information about how to particularly use it pretty darn quickly. So here's, here's some home. During the downtime. When, you know, we are maybe not buying and flipping as fast as we, like, you could still sort of spend some of that cycle time. [00:28:53] I feel like it's that night at night, time away from your day job uh, picking up the skill. I think it's, there's a lot of upside here and this would be the platform that I think is going, you know, we're going to make it like, that's the platform that's going to make it because of the way that they're built in a, in a sustainable way was real smart tech. [00:29:14] Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. They're just being, so they're building a lot more to make it even more extensible. Adding API is just spending. I think it's great that they make it open, make it a bit of, you know, the source for, for web three data. And I think that. [00:29:28] George: Actually question. I know Eve yes. Polygon. Yes. What about other layer ones? Do you have like, are they like washing them? Like what can I, what kind of build on here? Okay. [00:29:40] Andrew: Yeah, I was actually going to look what they actually have right now. So they do have, I know that they are working on cross chain analytics. So right now they've got a theory. Um, Gnosis polygon, optimism, Binance, and then they are working on. Actually having cross chain analytics. So right now you'd have to run it, run these queries separately, but we'll be able to start running. [00:30:06] Together so that you can much, it'll be much easier to see where uh, you know, how, how Ethereum, how it different transactions, health and things are tokens are flowing across um, various uh, various layers, you know, cause right now we've got this thing where you basically parking your Ethereum somewhere and then you're going and transacting on another layer. [00:30:27] And. Sort of, it's sort of like putting a wall in the middle of this uh, of this visual of transaction. So you've got to look on the one side of what's happening on Ethereum. Then you park your Ethereum there, and then you're looking on the other side. So this will allow it to, well, at least two. I don't know, provide a more transparent view of what people are actually doing when they go to, from a theory of polygon or optimism or, you know, any of these other layers. [00:30:52] And I think there probably will be more coming as

Interview with Heather Yandow, the founder of Nonprofit.ist, an online resource that helps pair nonprofits with the right consultants; a co-founder of Beehive Collective, a Raleigh-based giving circle; and the creator of Third Space Studio's Individual Fundraising Benchmark Report. Host, George Weiner discusses how nonprofits should approach RFPs and finding the right contractor or agency for the type of project they need.      Nonprofit.ist Resources  https://www.nonprofit.ist/home https://www.nonprofit.ist/rfp https://www.nonprofit.ist/5questionstoanswer https://www.thirdspacestudio.com/ Heather Yandow is a collaborative co-conspirator and creative thinker with over 20 years of experience in the nonprofit world. Inspired by issues that touch her heart and organizations invested in relationships, Heather gets joy out of helping groups move forward from chaos to clarity. Phrases like “adaptive leadership” and “change management” are sure to get her mind churning. Before Heather joined Third Space in 2010, she was the Director of Development and Communications with the NC Conservation Network, a statewide network of over 100 organizations focused on protecting North Carolina's environment and public health. With a personal motto of “just do it,” Heather identifies problems and dreams up actionable solutions. This talent has led to many projects: Heather is the founder of Nonprofit.ist, an online resource that helps pair nonprofits with the right consultants; a co-founder of Beehive Collective, a Raleigh-based giving circle; and the creator of Third Space Studio's Individual Fundraising Benchmark Report.   Rough Transcript [00:00:00] George: We have got a very fun guest. Heather . Heather is the founder of nonprofit IST that's nonprofit.ist to be clear. And Heather is also a consultant at third space studio. Heather, thanks for joining us. How is. [00:00:18] Heather: Great. I'm glad to be joining you today. [00:00:21] George: Well, you know, I came across non-profits, but I've also been watching your work for a while and I laughed because it was similar to a tool that Holwell has tried to build and kind of does on the side. But maybe we can just start with what is a nonprofit just. [00:00:39] Heather: Good question. So I think of a non-profit is like a florist or a dentist. So a nonprofit is, does a person who has experience with nonprofits. So nonprofit is, is also a website, a directory of nonprofit experts. So coaches, consultants, lawyers, accountants, anybody who can help nonprofits with the challenges they're, they're dealing with. [00:01:04] So we've got almost 300 folks from across the country as part of our directory and leaders, nonprofit leaders from all over the country can come and find the help that they need there. [00:01:15] George: And how is a non-profit is just uniquely different than somebody who is working for a for-profit industry. Like, you know, I work on email. Why is the nonprofit is just so important in this equation? [00:01:32] Heather: I think it's really important because nonprofits have. To some degree, unique set of challenges. We're often resource constrained. We're dealing with different kinds of social issues or behavior change or advocacy that maybe those in the business world might not be. And the nonprofit leadership structure often is really different than what you might have in a for-profit. [00:01:56] So, if you're working in a nonprofit, you might have to be dealing with a board of directors, but it has a whole lot of influence and power over the decisions that are being made potentially. And that often doesn't exist in the same way in the for-profit world. [00:02:11] George: And so this site, nonprofit that IST helps people find these professionals, like, how is it, Matt? It sounds like a marketplace. [00:02:23] Heather: It is a marketplace. [00:02:24] I, I designed it to be somewhat the Angie's list of nonprofit consultants. We do not have all of the features and Angie's list yet, but it is a place where you can come and. Sorta people you can search by any particular category. You can search by geography. You can look for keywords. [00:02:45] So if you're looking for a strategic planning consultant in Florida who has experienced with. You can put all of that in there and the system will spit out. Here's a few folks who might fit the less specific you are, the more people you'll get. But we have, I think, a dozen different specialties now. [00:03:03] And about 40 states, we've got represented. [00:03:06] George: Interesting. What's the most popular fist somebody is looking for. [00:03:11] Heather: The most popular is that people are looking for, tends to be fundraising. Unsurprisingly fundraising continues to be the thing that people really need help with and not whether it's figuring out how to ask major donors for. [00:03:27] funding, setting up bequests, thinking about grant writing, all of those specialties. [00:03:33] We see a lot of interest in. [00:03:34] George: So tools, sites marketplaces, like Fiverr have existed for quite some time or Upwork or, you know, fill in the. [00:03:43] Heather: Yeah. [00:03:44] George: Why did you decide to create one focused on non-profits? [00:03:49] Heather: I think what we saw in the, in the world in the marketplace was that there wasn't kind of trusted. just for people who have experience with non-profits. So certainly you could go on Fiverr, you go on Craigslist and find yourself a graphic designer. But if you need someone who really understands strategic planning, or if you want a lawyer who can help with incorporation, Those folks are a little bit harder to find. [00:04:17] And there was a very fragmented landscape of these directories. So some state nonprofit associations have kind of business directories, some very specific kind of specialties have their own directories, but there was nothing that was really national and that included all of the different kinds of help that non-profits? [00:04:39] really. [00:04:39] George: It sounds like a daunting task to try to corral so many independent contractors or small companies. How long have you been building this? How have you been going about adding to the database? [00:04:53] Heather: So I think it was more daunting than I envisioned. If I had known at the start, how daunting it was, I might not have started. But I began in January of 2019. We got our first expert to be part of the directory. We had a hundred folks by may of that year and opened up to the public. So it's really started getting nonprofit leaders to come and take a look. [00:05:16] And we've been growing really by word of mouth. So there was a big question when we started, how are we going to credential the people in the directory? How are you going to know that you're getting somebody good? And that for nonprofit consultants is actually a really hard question. There is no one a certificate that we can get. [00:05:38] There's no, no particular degree. If you're great in one specific area like fundraising, you might have a certification or coaching. But we went round and round about how we were going to credential people and eventually decided that trust is transitive. And so if I trust you as a consultant that you're going to do good work and you trust somebody else who I don't know, then that trust is transitive. [00:06:05] So I am going to trust that they are also a good consultant. So we have grown by invitation only. So our members can invite. Their colleagues to become part of the network. [00:06:18] George: Interesting. So it's, if a goes B and B equals C. And see, you could get a drink sometime and hopefully be able to speak the same language. So how does, you know you know, we have a wide audience listening. How would a consultant saying, oh, I want to be on this list. How, how would they go about that then? [00:06:39] Heather: Good question. So we do Have folks who are not directly connected. There's a way to apply on the website and you just have to answer a couple of questions. One of the other things that I know about consulting is that. One consultant. Isn't great for everybody. So we're not looking to say here's a set of absolutely perfect. [00:07:01] A plus consultants who are going to work for every person. We're looking to say, here's a set of folks who have some good experience with non-profits who have some trust with their colleagues. And if you're going to hire them, we want you to be a good consumer. We want you to think about how you're actually doing. [00:07:20] Choose who to work with and make sure that the right fit for you. [00:07:23] George: Have you ever had to boot somebody for, for, misbehaving? [00:07:27] Heather: We haven't ever really had to beat anybody for misbehaving? [00:07:30] I'll tell you that story later. [00:07:32] George: I love, I love the postscript on that and you know, it's, it's a. It's an important note though, you know, you, you mentioned sort of Angie's list and a part of that is ratings and trust, but at the, at the heart of it, you know, every organization can't be great at doing all of the things. And some percentage of projects just don't go as planned because that's the nature of consulting. [00:07:56] They have been hired to solve a hard problem, and sometimes it doesn't get solved in the way that everyone hoped. So how do you go about that? I guess as a promise to nonprofits, I assume nonprofits can come on there and post what they need, or look for a professional. Like, what is that type of vetting promise look like. [00:08:18] Heather: So. Promise that this is a trusted network. We allow people to, for nonprofit consultants, they can post their LinkedIn profile. They can post their email, they can put up testimonials about how great they are. And when nonprofit leaders, when a board member executive director development director comes to look, we really encourage them to think about how they're going to hire well. [00:08:45] But nonprofits as a website, doesn't get involved in that transaction. We really wanted to make it as frictionless as possible and also free. So for all of our nonprofit leaders who are coming to the site, it's totally free to get in And get access to all of these consultants. [00:09:02] George: And here's a tough one for you. What about ratings? I immediately think of, as you've mentioned, Angie's list or like a Yelp, I'm saying like, how many stars can I leave people potentially. [00:09:15] Heather: I've been really hesitant to get into the ratings game. And that is. In part, because I'm not sure in this case they'd be super helpful. I suspect that we would be getting a lot of five-star reviews. And that just in this context, I think people are too nice. I'm not sure that we would actually get the kind of constructive feedback that would be helpful. [00:09:39] And maybe that's just what I'm telling myself, because I have heartburn about putting that up and having to deal with consultants who might want to take down negative reviews or kind of mediate any of those. Because certainly there are times when I've been a consultant for 12 years. There are times when the work hasn't gone as expected, and it's my fault. [00:09:59] There are other times when the work hasn't gone as expected and it's actually the client's fault. And so. There's this a lot of a gray area there that I'm hesitant to get into, but is, is definitely on our radar. [00:10:13] George: I don't know the right answer. I have been in the same game for over a decade, and I'm aware that what happens on Yelp ultimately is the, the polars, right? You end up with extremely happy or extremely frustrated, and that can paint a weird picture and then put no marketplace owner in a weird place. But clearly from a nonprofit perspective, you'd be curious as to sort of number served or something there. [00:10:42] It's it's hard though. I started this conversation mentioning whole Wales got a similar product, which a, with a much, much, much smaller band. We only look at sort of digital. RFPs website builds for, you know, we originally did this because we don't build websites at whole whale. And there's a lot of things we don't do that whole well, where we want a need, a trusted network. [00:11:08] You mentioned that sort of transitive property of trust. And so it's like a handful we have less than 20 companies that serve a range of budgets for these types of technical projects and includes like ad-words management. And website dev the problem was, you know, the well, many fold, but just sort of scaling beyond that trust. [00:11:32] And like, we just, I didn't have the guts to just open up the door wider, but also we didn't have enough projects I'd say to come in. So the two-sided marketplace is super hard. We have. A handful of these RFPs coming in. I'm curious on your side, what does that nonprofit flow look like? What does the, you know, average size you mentioned it's a fundraising fundraising, unsurprised type of consulting people are looking for, but maybe you can paint what that looks like. [00:12:03] Heather: So we have been actively reaching out about the directory, marketing, the directory, really putting a lot of our budget behind recruiting. Nonprofit leaders to come to the directory. As I said, it's free to join and you've got to join if you really want to dig into somebody's profile. And we've got just over 3000 members now over the past three years. [00:12:29] So we're doing we're finding that a lot of people are interested in this. The two big ways that folks are finding us one is we invest a lot in Google ads. We have found that that has been a really good way for us to find new. And then also word of mouth. So every time somebody asks me or asks any of the consultants in our directory, do you know somebody who, which we get those questions a lot? [00:12:56] Our answer is non-profits. So that kind of constant referring back has been really helpful. Because we are not always in the middle of the RFPs the best data that we have about what folks are looking for and what they're getting is from doing some surveys every year. And so we know that folks are finding good people through nonprofits. [00:13:19] They're getting their projects done. They're recommending it to their friends. They have a pretty high level of satisfaction. [00:13:25] George: And for our tool, we jokingly called it snorkel. Our front door is an RFP generator. Like we don't let you come into the party unless you have an RFP. Now those three letters, the request for proposals. I know, spark a bit of ire in the consulting space. Maybe you can map out your approach and experience with the RFP. [00:13:51] Do they don't they dilemma? [00:13:52] Heather: Yes. So I am anti RFP just to stake my claim. I think that's Absolutely organizations need to get clear about what they're looking for before they approach a consultant, but that is different than having an RFP. An RFP can help you get clarity on some of the questions. How much money do you think. [00:14:17] When do you want this to be done? What are the big questions are looking to answer? I, have also seen RFPs that are 12 pages long and answer none of that. Right? So they are not necessarily the same thing. I actually asked some consultants on LinkedIn. I put out a post about RFP. And got a lot of great feedback. [00:14:39] Most folks in a similar situation to me that RFPs are just not what works. And I think they don't work for a couple of reasons. One is often they're really prescriptive and that prescription is either solving the wrong problem or. Putting together a scope of work that just really isn't going to address the need. [00:15:02] And part of the reason why you want to work with a consultant often is to help diagnose the challenge, help plan out the solution. So if you're already doing that in your RFP, if you've already seen. We're going to have one, two hour board training and one, one hour work session with the executive committee and that's it. [00:15:21] That's the solution to our problem. Then you're really not using consulting to its full capacity. You're not really using us in a way that's going to be helpful. They also often require a lot of free work. So I am half of a two person consulting firm. We use our time to do the work. And so if you are asking us to put together of five page RFP or five page proposal with lots of responses, we may not ever apply for. [00:15:53] And that's certainly going to be true for other folks who are not part of larger organizations. So you're kind of skewing your RFPs towards people who have the capacity to sit down and write lots of proposals. And finally they're really impersonal, I think when the best fits come, when you actually have that. [00:16:15] That personality, when you're able to talk to somebody and you clicked and you both understand the problem, you understand how you're going to work together. Those work styles really mesh and the RFP proposal process really doesn't do that. Well. I just had the best experience and I didn't even get the work, but it was still the best experience I had somebody send me a request for conversations. It was a two page document that included lots of the pieces of an RFP. And at the bottom, it says, if this seems like something you're interested in click here to schedule a 25 minute phone conversation. So I did my partner and I got on the phone. We talked for 25 minutes, fantastic conversation. And at the end of it, he said, okay I'm going to be talking to our executive director. [00:17:03] And if you move on the next step is a conversation with the two. So that was 25 minutes of our time. 25 minutes of his time. It wasn't the right fit for whatever reason, but that was fine. I would do those calls all day long, rather than write out those large proposals. [00:17:19] George: I, I wish I could say that. Like that's not perfect because the request for conversation, we see, we get those, like a request for information is also kind of goes by, and it's just so much more efficient. And I will say like, you know, we, we live in an RFP world for project sizes and pieces that. I just have to be part of the DNA of the process. [00:17:43] You know, one of our approaches is putting out a template that hopefully elicits something usable and it kind of brings somebody through that process, but we don't respond to cold RFPs where we don't get a conversation first. And I think that's an important note. The other piece I'll say about the RFP is it does help focus. [00:18:03] Sometimes I'd find the project as opposed to. You know, here's a problem. We have no clue what we need. And that's the difference of going to a dentist versus a general practitioner? Do you dentist here, like, let's be clear what the problem is. And so in, in that type of focus, we sort of, we default to the unfortunate RFP. [00:18:27] But I want to pull back to the size of organization that you somehow end up with. As soon as you kind of like pull together the RFP, you have to assume the type of machinery that can respond to RFP put together those pages. Right? We have a win rate of about anywhere hovering from like 46 to 52%, which means half of our work goes into yield dumpster of, of our. [00:18:53] How do you think about the budget expectations when it comes to these conversations? [00:19:01] Heather: The budget expectations from in response to what the non-profit is looking. [00:19:07] George: Yeah. That awkward conversation about how much does it cost? Well, how much do you have. [00:19:13] Heather: Yes. So I take my cues from say yes to the dress. And so have you ever seen this though? It is a. is a I don't know what channel is a TLC probably, but it's about women shopping for wedding dresses. And so they walk into a store and there's wedding dresses from, you know, a thousand dollars to a hundred thousand dollars. [00:19:33] And the bridal consultants, not sales women consultants say. Is there a price point we should pay attention to? This is our price point. We need to respect is there, is there a budget here? And so I lean on that kind of language. So is there a budget I need to keep in mind? Is there a budget you have set aside for this? [00:19:53] I won't really respond to an RFP. I won't respond to an RFP if it doesn't have a budget in it. Particularly for the kind of work I do. If someone wants a strategic planning process, it really depends on what kind of investment they're looking to make as to what the scope of our work can be. And so oftentimes I will kind of walk folks through that. [00:20:18] So here's a few different pieces of work we could do if we do all of them. It's a $40,000 project. If we just did this one little piece, it's a $10,000 project, but I need to understand where you are. And so certainly there's budget implications for that. The thing I think we don't often think enough about, especially in the kinds of organizational development projects is what's the bandwidth that the board and the staff have for this. [00:20:47] So if you're doing a strategic plan or board development, or even in depth fundraising, What else does, does the staff and board have on their mind this year? Are you also going through a diversity equity inclusion project? Are you also celebrating your 40th anniversary? Are you also launching a capital campaign? [00:21:06] Do you actually have. [00:21:07] the bandwidth to do this project this year? Or does that help to determine the size of the project as well? [00:21:15] George: So it's a monetary and a time type of budget. [00:21:20] Heather: Yes. It's. What resources do you have available for this in the coming year or two years? [00:21:26] George: It's super important in tough too, because you know, we've seen a lot of folks. Well, I don't want to put a bunch of down this, but I'm going to give you a five page RFP. I just sort of, I'm like, I won't pass that forward because you know, we've got companies on our snorkel list that we'll do a project for $5,000 in $500,000. [00:21:49] So for you to not give a budget, you're like, okay. I'll, I mean, I'll tell you what happens on the other side. They're like, yeah, we're not going to bother with us. Or what they do is they look at your nine 90 and then they analyze what's going on with the size of the organization and they back into it. [00:22:05] But this could be a small project for you. You just sort of wasting your own time and others' time by not having that budget range. However, I do see the. Converse there where maybe you're talking about a larger, you know, fundraising effort or a larger project where there could be a range and you want competitive bids, because again, a nonprofit is obliged by its statute to have three competitive bids. [00:22:36] And if you say I'm going to spend, you know, $60,000 on this project, then you know, like how much competition he gets. So what is your advice? For, for that nuanced game, [00:22:48] Heather: not all nonprofits need to get the competitive bids but many do threshold on that? Do you know? [00:22:55] I think it might have to do with the funding source. So it might be like government money. You have to get more beds. A lot of the nonprofits I work with don't have to get those bids if they're smaller and they don't have government funding. [00:23:07] I think though that when we're talking about. Reacting based on price, choosing based on price, you are not going to get the best consultant for you. So if your only way of judging is price and you're not looking at that fit, you're not looking at experience. You're not looking at work to be done. [00:23:29] Then I think you're really you're, you're doing yourself a disservice and your organization and disservice. So I. React. Well, when someone says, well, we've got kind of 50 to $60,000, that's our budget range. And here's all the things we want to do. What I see often happens is nonprofit leaders, eyes are bigger than their plates. [00:23:50] Their desires are bigger than their. So I might describe all the things we could do. And then I find out they've only got a very small budget, but they're still trying to cram all of the different pieces in and figuring out how to get the most bang for their buck, which I do think makes sense. But if someone. [00:24:09] Does it have a budget, huge red flag for me, they're not taking this seriously. They're not ready to make a significant investment of time and money if they won't share their budget. I think I try to walk them through. Here's why it matters to me what your budget is. Not because I'm going to max it out, but because I want to right-size the work. [00:24:29] And if they still won't give me a budget, then I think that's a, that's a big question for myself and my colleague, my partner to figure out, do we really want to move forward with this? [00:24:38] George: Yeah, I think the selection criteria is kind of interesting because if you just choose based on price, the adage of you get what you pay for is like an immutable law of grants. That comes forward. And at that point, you know, you should just go onto Fiverr and have somebody just, you know, go do it for $5. [00:24:57] You realize there's a point at which that's a ridiculous thing. And you're playing a weird game by going about that. Coming back to that question, though, you know, you have, non-profits waiting into 300, 3000 X, you know, options out there. How. Just the site or do you advise on choosing that? Right? We'll say fundraising consultant. [00:25:21] Heather: So our advice is to first be clear about what you need. So what's the challenge you're trying to address how many. Do you have to put into it both in terms of money and in terms of time, when do you want it done? Honestly, the wind can be really challenging. So if you have a board retreat next weekend, your pool of consultants is very small, right? [00:25:46] If you, if we have some time and some bandwidth, you have a much bigger pool of consultants. The other thing I encourage folks to think about is what are those kind of untangible, intangible, unteachable things that you are really looking for in a consultant. So it might be, you're really looking for a particular kind of experience. [00:26:09] It might be, you are looking for a particular kind of personality. So you might like someone who is super direct. You might like somebody who is really focused on project and task management. You might know that because of the composition of your board and staff, you really want to be sure that the team includes a person of color in the leadership. [00:26:34] Right? There are a whole lot of characteristics that if you reflect back both on yourself, The organization, the team that's leading this work, you might identify, there's some specific things that we're really looking for. And I think those can be really important. [00:26:48] George: Yeah. So there's some intangibles that like your style approach, other other factors. And then, you know, you have the conversations, it seems like the large part of this platform as you go on here are folks that fit your filter. Now go have some conversations while also sending some of that information upfront as a maybe request for conversation. [00:27:10] Heather: Yeah. I mean, it's, maybe it's an Angie's list. I should call it mass.com. Although I don't actually know much about matching anymore. It's to get you to the date, right? Like there's information here. There's background about consultant's experience, but it's really to get you to that conversation. [00:27:28] to see if there's a match to see if you fit in terms of experience. [00:27:33] If you see, if you like the questions that consultant is asking you, if they have good questions, answers to the questions you're asking them, it's really about that interaction. [00:27:43] George: What's the, you mentioned time, what's the recommended amount of time to sort of buffer in, like, I have a project that needs, I know it needs to start at the end of the year. And here's the funny thing that you and I see every fundraising cycle is I need this to start ASAP, which is just the hilarious four letters that we all see. [00:28:04] What is the recommended amount of time. Let's just play with this game of like, you know, that you're going to need a project in case. When should you start looking for that consultant? [00:28:15] Heather: It's going to depend on how booked out the consultant is, but I will say at least three months in advance you want to have, have the person in mind be signing the contract three months in advance. That way, if you're having an in-person board retreat or you're launching a fundraising campaign, you've got time to do the pre-work. [00:28:36] So that might mean that you need to start searching. Four months, five months, depending on what kind of process you want to do to actually select the person. But three months out is for me and for the consultants that I know gives a good bit of flexibility. What do you think [00:28:53] George: I think the shorter your time to start, the more you're going to end up having to pay for a larger firm that has that type of excess couple. [00:29:01] And that's just, you know what we have seen over time, for example, we're not taking on clients until July right now, and that data is rapidly moving away. And you know, the, the game is that the smaller, the shop, the less they can afford the availability, meaning that, can I just take on another project right now? [00:29:21] No, because I book up my months so that I didn't. I have an idol, you know, an idle hour, which is tough because you know, you miss out on projects and pieces that, that happen, but you can't operate like what we would say, high, a low utilization tool, like a fire department where it is fine because we want them to available and be available when the fire happens. [00:29:47] You just, I think end up with just massive agencies. That you can just cost more and maybe get less personalized. You know, we're a company of 26 people, but when I started, it was a company of me. So I've kind of seen this like grow over time and this game of keeping a plate full while keeping the opportunity to work with great organizations coming in and. [00:30:12] It always frustrates me when a great organization comes in and like, Hey, we known about this project for six months, but we're calling you right now. And you're like, why didn't you message us? We were going to get to It [00:30:26] Heather: My favorite is I put you in a grant requests that we were going to do this work with you next year. Okay, fantastic. And why are you telling me on December 15th? Like we needed to [00:30:39] George: No, but you're in the grant. I wrote you in. Okay. [00:30:42] Yeah. It's it's you know, about that size and I guess I would, you know, the average size of project, it seems like if these are consultants operating at like less than five people who are under five people, it sounds like that's kind of where the nonprofit is hovers. [00:31:00] Heather: Yeah, nonprofit consultants. A lot of fix our solar preneurs. We have a lot of small shops. My best guess is that our. The average project, our projects are somewhere between kind of 5,000 and 20,000 with of course, some variability on that on either side. A lot of the folks that we work with a lot of the non-profits are coming and looking for some startup help. [00:31:26] They're looking for running their first fundraising campaign, doing their first strategic plans. Sometimes those tend to be on the lower budget size, but we certainly have folks or we're looking to do, you know, a statewide communications campaign and need some help. [00:31:39] George: Yeah, I think that's such a valuable service because I know of so many, like solar printers and small shops out there that do great work, but you know, it's tough to find them sort them out. And you know, these are folks that may come and go out with. The career right there doing it between large organ, like large organization work. [00:32:00] Heather: Hm. [00:32:01] George: they'll show up for a while. I'm like, wow, this is great. But you know, it's tough to find that window sometimes. And it seems like a super valuable network for, for folks looking for those servers. All right. Before we go into a rapid fire, I'm just curious, any other final advice for nonprofits that, you know, you want to talk about? [00:32:20] You know, we touched on the choosing the intangibles time and budget, the request for conversation preferred over request for proposal, any other like, you know, insider tips for people looking to find a consultant on nonprofit. [00:32:36] Heather: Last thought is that it's probably going to take you. More money, more time, more energy than you think it will. Which is probably true for every. Consulting gig ever. And every house renovation and everything else you do, but as you're really putting together your budget, as you're thinking about the time span for the work, just know that unless you have a lot of experience with consultants, you probably are underestimating. [00:33:04] And so just go in with a little bit of a flexible mentality about all of those variables. [00:33:09] George: Yeah. It's like the Murphy's law of home renovation as much time as you have allocated for this, it's going to take more time even after accounting for Murphy's law. [00:33:18] Heather: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. [00:33:22] George: Alright, rapid fire. Please try to keep your responses shortish. And here we go. What is one tech tool or website that you or your organization has started using in the last year? [00:33:32] Heather: I am in love with Zapier, which connects all kinds of programs. You can connect your Gmail to your zoom, to your MailChimp. And it kind of, it does zaps back and forth between things. And I love it. [00:33:49] George: What tech issues are you dealing with right now? [00:33:51] Heather: I just launched a big survey on survey monkey and the bots found it. And so we finally figured out how to put a question that was, we want to make sure you're human. Tell us about your favorite meal and why, and that is the, the bots figured out how. The answer the multiple choice question about which one of these is not an animal we thought that was going to work. [00:34:14] It did not. They all knew it was a basketball, but this one seems to work so bots in my survey. [00:34:20] George: What is coming in the next year that has you the most excited. [00:34:23] Heather: are about to, for nonprofits launch our, what we're calling our ethos, which is our kind of statement of principles for the consultant community. We're just about done with designing it and we're going to launch it in the next couple of weeks. So I'm really excited. [00:34:39] to get that out there and, and hear what people have to say. [00:34:42] George: Can you talk about a mistake you made earlier in your career that shapes the way you do things. [00:34:47] Heather: Yes. So when I was. It's probably 15 years ago, I was working with, in my volunteer gig. I run a giving circle at that time in Raleigh called the beehive collective. And we were given this wonderful opportunity to host some events at a club in downtown Raleigh over the weekend. And so we were able to host an event on Friday night. [00:35:09] We had this like. Crazy talent show on Saturday, we had a clothes swap. We used to do that a lot. And then on Sunday night we had this thing called the barrister's ball, just a dance party. Well, nobody showed up to the third event and what I really figured out is how over-saturating her overtaxing, this community that we had, people wanted to show up for it. [00:35:37] It was just too much. They could not do a Friday night, a Saturday day, a Saturday night. And so they made choices. And so as I think about engaging any kind of community, I really think about kind of what's the, what's the cost of this? What's the trade off of this? How do I really figure out what the carry capacity is of my community or of this organization or whatever, and how do I design for that? [00:36:01] George: If I were to toss you in a hot tub time machine, back to the beginning of your work, what advice would you. The advice of take more risks try out more new things. Every time I have taken a risk, I have been rewarded for it. And I have really learned a lot and had a great time made progress on my goals, but have often found myself hesitant, especially early in my career to do that. [00:36:26] what is something you think you should stop doing? [00:36:28] Heather: Saying yes. Saying yes to all kinds of things work and otherwise [00:36:34] George: I already gave you a magic wand to wave across the industry. [00:36:37] Heather: it would stop executive directors from having. Unrealistic expectations about their boards and boards from having unrealistic expectations of their executive director. [00:36:50] George: How did you get your start in the social impact side? [00:36:53] Heather: When I was in college, I joined a environmental group, the student environmental action coalition. And from there just kept going and going and going. [00:37:04] George: What advice did your parents give you that you either followed or didn't. [00:37:09] Heather: I don't know. Sorry, I didn't. [00:37:12] prepare. [00:37:13] George: All right. Final one. How do people find you? How do people have. [00:37:16] Heather: So you can find me@nonprofit.ist nonprofit assist. You can reach me at Heather at nonprofit that IST and I would love it if you're a nonprofit leader and you want to join. Nonprofit assist and poke around and find some folks who can help you and also follow us on LinkedIn. We got a really active LinkedIn page, and then if you're a consultant and you want to find out more about joining the network, please be in touch. [00:37:43] I would love to talk to you about it. [00:37:45] George: Well, thank you for your work and for creating such an amazing tool and resource for the nonprofit community. Good luck. And thanks for sharing your knowledge. [00:37:54] Heather: Thank you so much for having me. This was place.

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GEORGE:   All right, guys. Welcome back to another episode of the did George show, where I make up intros off the top of my head, because people are amazing and I'm stoked to have them. And today's guest is somebody that I've wanted to interview for probably five years, except I didn't have a podcast nor reason to talk to him.And then we became best friends overnight. And so I'm excited beyond belief to have somebody that I look up to. I've considered a mentor through his teachings and what he's done. He stands for absolutely everything that is ethical entrepreneurship, caring about human beings, making a difference, building legacy businesses, and tolerance absolute zero bullshit will doing any of it. Well, Also leading by example, you know, that magic thing that we don't see a lot of on the internet where it's do, as I say, not as I do, because I don't want you to see what I do. Well, Alex Charfen is here today, CEO Charfen. He has built massively successful companies, navigated some of the biggest downturns of our world and my lifetime, and always come out on top with a smile on his face, grounded in the values that are important to him, his family, and leads by example.And so without further ado, Alex, welcome to the show. ALEX:   Thanks George. That was one of the best intros I've ever gotten. And that was awesome. GEORGE:   I feel like M and M and eight mile on Sunday mornings at 8:00 AM before I have my coffeeALEX:  I want that on my phone so I can play it each morning. Before I start workingGEORGE:   We'll send you the audio clip and then we can do it like the rock used to do as alarm codes, right? Like get up. And he yells at you. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm super, super excited to have you, man. I'm honored. This has been a long time coming and before we get into the deep, deep, deep stuff for the show, whatever, you know, navigating turns, we're going to end up in today. The first question that I always ask everybody to set context, the humanizes, and you have a lot of these, so feel free to take creative freedom with this one.What is the biggest mistake that you've ever made in business? And what was the lesson that you took away from  it?ALEX: That's like trying to like walk into an Amazon warehouse and say, which is the best box. Cause there's so many options. You know, George when I consider mistakes in business, so many of them, I don't look at them as mistakes anymore because. I've learned from them to find where I am now.I feel like almost every mistake, every huge challenge that I created has, has actually taught me something and moved me forward. And I think the one place where I would say that. That there were actual mistakes that I regret. And, and, and here's why I regret them. I don't regret the learning from them, but the mistakes that I made were with people when I was younger, especially there was a tremendous amount of collateral damage and the businesses that I ran. I was one of those people, not any more or not at all anymore, but I was one of those people that if I was going to separate with somebody, I actually had to break them, break the relations.I had to make it okay with me.  I had to make it so that it was so horrible that like we can never talk again. And when I look back at some of the separations that I had where people were either terminated or left, the companies that I ran, I feel like those are some of the biggest, the mistakes I made.And, and, you know, if I could go back and do it over again? I would, I would, you know, I would tell my younger self that you don't have to completely destroy a relationship to put it on pause. And you don't know, I have to completely demonize somebody to have them leave your company. Like those are all natural things that happened in the world.And  today with contrast,when somebody leaves our organization now, or when somebody decides to go to another opportunity, doesn't happen often anymore. But when it does. It's totally different. You know, I've actually, I've, I've led several several employess because of COVID and some other reasons we've actually let a few people go.And it's interesting cause I've remained connected with them. We connect every once in a while, you know, we talk. And so having that experience of being able to work with somebody and then continue the relationship, even though it's no longer a working relationship, it has been extraordinary. And when I was young, I did not even allow space for that. And I think that was, this longterm mistake, honestly, that comes from a childhood of trauma and a childhood of bullying and a childhood of really challenging relationships where I didn't understand how to navigate them. And I brought that forward into my business career. That's the biggest reason.GEORGE: And there's so much gold in there. This is why we get along. So for some context guys, when Alex and I reconnected, we got on zoom for a half an hour and then were like, we need an hour that we need three hours. Now let's just keep talking all day every day because I was like, I was like, sorry, Katie, you can have them back now. I'm like, I'm getting my very much dopamine hit and I'm not gonna deny this, that I wanted this. Like, this was very much my drug today. And I'm okay with this one, right? This is one of those, like, I can go seek it as I need, you know, Alex, one of the things that I think is so imperative and we talked about this, but you and I have so many similarities in this.Is that in the beginning, right? Is this collateral damage? Right? I got feedback that there were trails of dead bodies behind every success. And there were two sides of it for me that were tough. Number one is I never celebrated, right. There was no space because it was never good enough. Right. And so that took from everybody and made it.And then really, I think, as an entrepreneur and a self-aware entrepreneur, and you talk about this as like evolutionary hunters and the way that you do this, I think it was your EPT, your entrepreneurial personality types. You know, one of the things that I think is so amazing as entrepreneurs is that  we're driven for change.We want things to be better, but I think what the razors edges or the tight rope that we like to ride a unicycle down from is to come from when we go down the middle. And there's that part of us as entrepreneurs we're down there, the middle, all the one side was insecurity ego. It doesn't matter.It's never enough I'll sacrifice anything and then we've spent our life at this point, working towards self-awareness. You love, compassion, empathy, relationship, even you just said.I didn't think this was possible a couple of years ago. Like, wait, somebody can leave my organization and be better than when they got there.And we still have a relationship, like can still text. We can talk, right? Like this isn't, you know, purgatory exile, like we're going back in Mayan culture. So, what are some of the things? Cause you have like five core values at your company. You guys stand for humans. Like you stand for change, you stand for being, but I know that this is prevalent everywhere.And I had one of my mentors at a very young age Allen out.  Alex told me that and I learned this as a Marine, too. Like my job wasn't to keep people underneath me. My job was to get myself fired and get them better than me. And there's a point where. You know, they have to leave the coop and they have to grow.But I think the biggest distinction is it was talked about in there world, but really it's our, our growth as a human, like on our side, like the self-awareness side. So what are some of the things that you do that you focus on? Like you help companies with operations, with culture, with flow, with team and people like, how do you go about that?And what are some of the things that you keep to keep your keel in the water as you navigate that? ALEX: Oh, man. There's that question, George.GEORGE: So that's the point. Now I can drink my coffee over here and go to town. Yeah. Where did you go? ALEX: George, I think in order to answer that question, I kind of have to take a step back and, and talk about where, where, like, I've come from.If you want to know how things are kept in motion now, I think we have to first draw, contrast as to how things were before. Yes, sir. When I look at when I was younger and well into my twenties I experienced a tremendous amount of trauma and I had the same, like this is, this came up in our, we just had a three day event with 200 companies around the world and it came up this week.I started, I taught, I talk openly about trauma and how it drives us in the present. And I often tell our clients until you are ready to work through your trauma, you are destined to create, or, and you will only continue to create trauma. Cause it's a pattern for people, hurt people. And that's really how it works.You know, when I look at somebody who's causing havoc in the world, what I see as somebody who's severely traumatizedand acting through those things. And so for me, when I was 26 years old, I went through a really severe breakup. I'm 47 now and at the time to do okay. I actually was, um, I was uncomfortable enough that the only time I felt comfortable in it was when I was drinking.The only time I really fell asleep and stayed asleep was when I was. Kind of loaded and I wasn't used to having those feelings like I had when I was younger. I had definitely I,  was no lack of time in bars or drinking and entertaining and doing those things. But I hit this period where it almost became a necessity and not almost it became a necessity and it was severely challenging to go through that.And. My mom was a therapist in California and I was talking to her about it. I had tried cognitive behavioral therapy. I don't know if you've tried this too. You go in like, I don't, I don't want to demonize all cognitive behavioral therapy, but for me, CBT was so hard because you go in, you spill your guts and the person across the room.I see. How does that make you feel? And then you spill your guts more and then they say, I see, how does that make you feel? And then you spend more. And by the third time they say, I see you, how does that make you feel? I actually responded one time to a therapist. It makes me feel like I want to get up, knock you out because you're not helping me.I feel like you're just, this is frustrating. , I feel agitated and yeah. Triggered and all that stuff. And so I stopped doing that. And I remember calling my mom and she said, there'd be called EMDR. And, it's eye movement, desensitization and reprogramming. It'sa very weird sounding therapy, but it's actually amazing.I, you know, George, it's interesting that you were in the military and we, we talked so much about trauma because even back then, when I was 26, I had some friends that had been in the teams. And, they were VR for Navy seals. Yep. It was actually this huge experiment in the military to see if EMDR would help with the offloading of  trauma and return to service.And they were getting incredible results with it. So for me that growth process has been understanding my trauma. Understanding where so much of my reactivity and almost automatic behaviors came from. And, and so much of a processing, what had happened to me has now allowed me to become more present and aware and you know, it's interesting, George.I used to think that I was so present and so aware when I was in my twenties and now I look back and it's like the funniest thing in the world because I was so detached and , not even feeling my feelings and understanding what was going on. I didn't even know how to interpret what was happening.And then I thought I did so much better in my thirties and I'm like, you know, nailed it. And then I look back and I'm like, no, I just had a better understanding, but I was still working through so much of it. And finally, I feel like in about the past 10 years in years, I've gone into another year of really being able to release things and process things and, and work through things.And that's been a combination of a ton of breath  work. Breath work, I think has been one of the most effective things that I've done a tremendous amount of EMDR therapy and, and going back to then as needed, not like just when it's acute, but when I feel stuck or when I feel like I have writing blocks or anything like that.And then, really a lot of self exploration and a lot of and if you wanted to put a layer on all of that, It's process, structure and routine. And it's you say that this is what a day is like the process structure and routine that allows you to grow a business, grow your life, have what you want in your life.But for most of my life, I fought process, structure and routine more than anything else. Oh yeah. I had that, that, that impression that like, as an entrepreneur, What makes you successful is being whatever you want, anytime that you want. And so I held onto that myth, that illusion, that totally illusory place, it does not exist where you can be a successful entrepreneur and just wake up and do whatever the heck you want every day.It doesn't really work. I mean, you might be able to be a yeah, no, , there's not a situation where it works. And so. Um, I think the biggest shift for me has been committing to process, structure and routine, like up to and including even on a Sunday this morning, I got up, did my morning planning, went through my morning routine.Like I do every other day, sat down in a line with my family. It's like now it's an edict. It's not an option anymore. Cause I know that's where my strength. And really that's where my be present and productive and persuasive and influential. That's what it comes from.GEORGE: Totally. There's so much in that And I want to, I want to nail some, so people have heard me talk about EMDR before. Um, but I glance over it.  Cause very rarely am I across from somebody who I'm like, Oh, you too. Right. Like, Oh, I, I remember, like I remember we did CBT and my wife actually walked us out. She was with me cause I was trying to process childhood trauma stacked on military trauma, stacked on battle entrepreneurial trauma.And she's like, this is not going to help you this like ALEX: 70 creative relationshipGEORGE: Oh yeah. Oh you, Oh, you, you re like, I mean, it's like a trauma definition, right? Like you open the book and the generic and it was a picture of every instance of my life. How they all exacerbated each other in different scenes.Yeah, right. Like, yeah. It was like, it was like almost like a storyboard for a movie at this point. AndI remember one EMDR appointment and I came out my wife's like, you're a different person, like one appointment, one appointment. And I think you nailed something too. And I think what's so important, Alex.And this is like the undertone of what you're talking about. And if anybody hasn't caught this yet, this success as an entrepreneur on the outside, comes from the commitment to the work on the inside. A hundred percent and it is a daily and I mean, daily committed practice to come in. And like EMDR for me was two years of, I think once or twice a week.And then it was like a once a year if needed. And now I just texted him and like just texting him, like gets me back into like where I need to go but I think, I think it's so important, like to reach the levels. When we talk about this, the two things that being number one is this commitment to self.Right. And like, it's what you teach now. It's the discipline, the intentionality, the process, the structure, everything that you're doing, but also the awareness of what it really means to be an entrepreneur and what we're doing.  And you hit this and we live in a world right now where it's like, Oh, laptop, lifestyle, and boom, boom, boom.And yeah, you do whatever you want. I'm like, that's not what it's like. That Instagram life is not real. And entrepreneurship is amazing. It is the most freeing, powerful job, you know, whatever business opportunity on the planet. But within that, we also have to create our own containers and structure to make it that efficient.If not, it's just a new form of addiction to hide from the traumas and the pain that we've never worked on. no question. And I think, I think, and for you, like you say, yo, you're in your forties, I'm like, I became aware yesterday of things I was doing that I wasn't aware of. , I think it's this process and awareness, but I think it was like last year, maybe after the birth of my son, where I was like looking at it and I was like, Oh, you mean that?Like my name can't carry everything. And I say something and magically a million dollars appears like, why? Like, I don't understand, like, why didn't my launch crush? Like why don't my Facebook ads work? And nobody else's does, like, why don't they just work? Cause I deserve them to work. Right? Like there was this.There was this thing that like I had to be aware of and process through and eat some humble pie. And so there's so many golden nuggets that you said. Um, and, and the first question I asked you was like, how do you know, operate forward and this point, and you nailed it. But I think one more thing I want to unpack before we even get there is in the very beginning, when I asked you what was the biggest mistake or lesson, you said something so subtle, but so empowering statement to where you are. And you said the challenges I created. Not the challenges that happen to me, not the challenges that somehow magically fell on my plate, like the challenges I created and there's this level of ownership that we do in breath, in work, in life, in modalities that puts us in this situation of awareness and the ability to shift something.But I see a whole lot of time and we both coach entrepreneurs a whole lot of like, I don't know why this happened and this happened and they did this to me and they did this to me and it's like an advocation of responsibility and it was so subtle when you said it, but it's so powerful to hear you talk about it.Can you unpack that a little bit of like the difference between, you know, my business partner failed and walked away versus like I created this challenge.ALEX:   Yeah, no question George. So. Years ago. I read this book. I think I can't remember who it was by, but I think it might've been Mark Victor Hansen. I think it was called the millionaire messenger.And it was a book that you read in two directions. So very interesting book where it had kind of a nonfiction and a fiction book together. I don't remember a ton about that book. I remember on one page, they had this graphic and it was the word responsibility with a line and underneath it blame and then underneath it said live above the line.And I remember that I actually have that on my well now with a couple of other equations that we've created as a company. But that responsibility over blame. I remember when I read it, I saw it and it was so 19. I'm like, no, you can blame. You can still like, yeah, you don't have to take responsibility for everything.And that was a journey that was probably a few years of like really working through that and understanding it. And then I remember one day it just clicked, you know, as honorable the faster we realized that we are for everything and we can take responsibility for everything. The faster we start to actually control our lives, create our destiny and be able to go in the direction that we want.I used to be the same as most people when I was younger and I had my business. You know, 911 happened for about eight weeks before. One of our biggest events when I owned a huge events company in Latin America. And I remember it happening and having the feelings of like, how could this happen to us?How insanely selfish and egotistical was the statement. 911 happened to us. Like, as I say it right now, I actually get kind of sick feeling in my stomach that I ever thought that way. But I remember actually saying it out loud and not even feeling like not feeling the. Body reactions and negative feelings, you should feel of making a statement that egotistical, which in retrospect shows me just how separated I was from my true self, just how detached I was.And as entrepreneurs what we work with our members on is responsibility over blame. Like how do you live in a world where you take responsibility for everything that's going on? And I have people, especially in today's timeframe, say things like, Oh, well, you can't be responsible for COVID.Sure you can be responsible for your reactions. You can be responsible for how you show up. You can be responsible for what you're going to allow and not allow into your mind. You can be responsible for how you lived through this situation. And, you know, I always tell people the bigger, the crisis, the bigger, the opportunity there's going to be more self billionaires made in this timeframe that at any other timeframe in the human history, And anyone who wants to argue that?Just go look, it's all ready. Oh, ready? We're all. We're only six or seven months in and look at the hundreds of billions of dollars of company value that has been added to the companies that we're well positioned and ready to go forward. And I think for us that's one of the things that are not for us, for me.That's one of the things that's really shifted for me is that now, regardless of what it is, I take responsibility and I put this on Facebook the other day. One of the observations that finally got through I've learned so much of what I understand in business and so much of what I know about relationships and how to create momentum as an entrepreneur has been observational.And one of the observations that has become crystal clear over time is that the more successful and entrepreneur. The more quickly, they turn every obstacle into an opportunity. The more quickly they turn every crisis into an opportunity. I've been around people that regardless of what's going on, they're just constantly shifting to housing and opportunity.How is this an opportunity? Most negative thing in their entire life. How can I create something better out of this? How do I grow from this? How do I move from this and that? You know, not that I'm a hundred percent there. I don't think, I don't know that I ever will be, but I'm so much closer to seeing everything as an opportunity.Than I ever was before. And so when Covid hit, I actually had somebody text me after one of my lives. And they're like, Hey man, it sounds like you're hearing the crisis sign. I'm like, Oh dude, that is not the impression I want to give. I'm not sharing it on. But I am fully conscious that this is the biggest opportunity a lot of us have had, and we should admit that to ourselves and get ready for it and go out and change the world because the world needs us now more than it ever  has.GEORGE:   totally.I think too, and you nailed this and, Oh man, there's so much here and you, and I think we might've been separated at birth at this point, which is so. Yeah, no, no, it was, it was like, and for those of you wondering like only like 32 people or so have my phone number and Alex doesn't give his out connected years ago.Never really talked to him. We both realized we both had our numbers in our phones,  totally.I think too, and you nailed this and, Oh man, there's so much here and you, and I think we might've been separated at birth at this point, which is so. Yeah, no, no, it was, it was like, and for those of you wondering like only like 32 people or so have my phone number and Alex doesn't give his out connected years ago.and we were like, okay, there's a reason. And the timing and everything. And what you said, Alex, Uh, it's about the pursuit of turning things into opportunities, not the perfection of what it looks like.And I think as an entrepreneur for me, you know, cause my ego needs some love at this point in this moment. So I'm going to make a statement, you know, because I'm learning so much in this time. But when I think about it, for me, one of the things that I really fell in love with after processing the belief around it was that there is no finish line, but it's what I choose to do every day about it.And. You know, there were parts of COVID like I lost over a million dollars under contract. I lost two companies and 70 grand a month in MRR in basically like 60 days. And I'm like still on paper. I'm in financially. One of the hardest places I've ever been in. And I'm the happiest and clearest I've ever been.And it wasn't an overnight, it was a, I feel like, crap, what am I going to do today? I feel like crap, what am I going to focus on today? And instead of it taking six months or three years, eight years of depression, it took like a week and it was, I feel this way. I acknowledge how I feel. That's not going to change.What am I going to do about it then that created the opportunity for opportunity. Like it created the ability to see the opportunity. Yes. It's like when we sit in these rooms as entrepreneurs, consider it a virtual room of made of Rome, a metaphorical room, whatever you want to call it. I say this all the time, you know, from breath work and the therapy trauma that I've done in the work that I've done in personal defense.And it's like the worst thing you can stay as stock. We are evolutionary creatures. We are supposed to evolve. We are supposed to move forward. And you know, I heard this the other day and it's like, you want to know what anxiety is? It's unused energy move. Yeah. And I was like, Whoa, like I've been doing it for years, but it was this simple thing.But then when I think about the compartment of entrepreneurship, what is anxiety, I'm like it's stagnation in our biggest enemy, which is our brain. It knows our fears. It knows our insecurities. It knows our habits. It knows our addictions. And yet we think we can out convince it that somehow we're going to feel better about it.Where, what you talk about this is how I feel. I'm aware. This is how I feel. Breath gets you there. Cold therapy gets you there. Movement gets you there. Okay. If this is how I feel, I have two choices. I can either succumb to this feeling and surrender and die, or I can acknowledge it, which that this feeling is here.And I can take a step in a different direction. And it's something that like I've been obsessing about, like on a different level of obsession. And it's probably had one of the most profound effects on everything in my life. And, you know, financially to gain will come and it has already, but even outside of that, like the happiness, the joy, and go back to deployments.Like I remember like I'll never forget. I hit some, all I'm about to cry. I hit Somalia. When I was 19 years old, I just turned 20 and I spent 13 months in my life and probably one of the worst places on this planet. And I'll never forget, like, seeing people wrapped in carpets on the side of the road, cause they couldn't afford to throw them out of them, burning dead by.And I was like, I was like, I'm not a tough guy. I want to go home. I didn't have a home to go to, like I left trauma to get there. And like I remember for 13 months I was like, get me out of here. Like I can't be here. I don't know habit. I didn't have that choice. So luckily I found a few people that mentored me and I found waits and I found, you know, certain therapies and things that I could do, but I'm just, I just remembered, like if I say came to any of that, I would have died.Like I would have just died. I would have just stopped moving the whole world crashed and crushed on me and it wouldn't have gotten me anywhere. And it took me a long time to be able to talk about it, some of these things and to process them in for me, what I struggle with sometimes is that like, what I saw is like 1% of what some of my friends saw.Like 1% and I can't even imagine, you know, what that was there, but I think the biggest thing that I always took away from everything, and I thank the Marine Corps for this is like, I wasn't given the chance to stop. I wasn't. It was like, Hey, and like we say this, like, Oh, they don't want you to feel, no, they do.They don't really totally do, but they don't want you to stop. And it's this thing of like this pursuit for full word and growth and movement as we go. And so, you know, with what you're saying, The one thing that I wanted to hit and this is a really big one and this is so subtle, but when I did personal film, I was getting coached and they were teaching the distinction versus responsibility.Victim versus responsible victim versus responsible, right. They really push the boundary on the belief of this, right? Like a hundred percent responsible, a hundred percent of the time. And it was this interesting thing because we would get in trouble for saying, I take responsibility. And I was like, I don't get it.I'm taking they're like, you can't take it. You never didn't eat. There was no point in which you never had it. ALEX:   There's no point in what you gave it up. And so you can't take it backGEORGE: You just feel like it did. And this distinction, like, it probably took me 10 years to understand, because there's so many times in business, right.Or as a consultant or with a student, or even in my own business, I like, Oh, I'll take it. And then I have to be like, Oh wait, no way. That was mine. The whole time. Yeah. And it's like this embodiment of it that is powerful. Like when we think about it. And so I didn't, I've never, I've never talked about a lot of the stuff that I, I experienced, like from a mindset perspective, they don't think I've ever been in the point to like really, um, process us.But you know what I love about you, Alex, and what I, you, you have this childlike curiosity and excitement mast with this tight container of structure that basically guaranteed success. ALEX: Thank you, but I appreciate thatGEORGE: Like, um, yeah, like I'm surprised I'm not walking around in diapers is my son's out of them. Like at that level of management. Cause there's times I feel like that, but you know, with that, I think what's so important and so powerful from like what I noticed with you. It's like when you get self-aware right.So you were talking about basically being, self-aware identifying what's here, understanding that we're responsible understanding that, you know, results equals opportunity depending on how we choose to see it. What I also love about that is that as you do this work on yourself, that awareness gives you a tool to see possibility versus resistance, right?And again, gives you the ability to react or not to react, to respond on a diamond pivot. Because there's no insecurity ridden. And I think about the times as an entrepreneur or where I was stuck and it was stocked because I had a belief that I was supposed to look a certain way, or it was supposed to be a certain way.And here's the news, flash entrepreneurship is basically a guaranteed. It's not going to look like you think it is every day of every moment for the rest of your life. Right. It's a commitment to chaos and it, and it's navigating that. And so in your, in your journey, and, and you've been in this game a long time, I mean, you, I don't even remember this specific you got, but like single-handedly denting the real estate crash market recovery and, you know, building like half a billion dollar businesses and I'm over here doing it for everybody else, but myself.And I'm a self jab on that one, but Oh, well, George, I've done some of that  myself too.ALEX:  I've you know, and, and I just, I don't want to, I don't want to like leave you on the hook there as a coach, as a consultant. One of the things that I'm now dealing with at 47 is that I've helped hundreds of entrepreneurs build businesses bigger than I have.And, and I, you know, I really like year before last, I sat down with Katie and I'm like, you know, Katie. I've done this too many times for other people this time, the business plan has to include us doing it for  ourself.and this is, this is like my realization really in just like the past 24 to 30 months.And when the reason we restarted this company from scratch was energetic, not legal or anything else. It was, we wanted to shut everything down and start over. Cause this is going to be different. Yeah. And so July of 2017, Katie and I hit the reset button, shut everything down, went down to no team members started from zero, and this is the business that we're going to create the success out of that. just like, we help other peopleGEORGE:  I'm  for those of you listening, if you can't tell, like I've been an Alex fan boy for a long time, but like out of, out of respect, like out of like genuine, pure. Respect because there's these things like we, Alex, and I joke a lot.We talk about the state of the industry that we're in. We're probably going to unpack that in a little while, but yeah. You know, like people don't even pretend to be like snakes in the grass anymore. They're like, no, no, no, no. I don't care if the grass is there not, I want you to see me. And like, there's these people that walk it and they talk it and they believe it and they do it.And it's congruency. And Alex is one of those people, which I hide, we admire and respect. And I think it's an important point. Alex is an entrepreneur. I don't know about you, but you know, for me, I needed to build it for other people. To get those lessons, to have the awareness and understand why I was doing it to then be able to come in and be like, Oh, I still get to do it.And I think healed that part of me that didn't think I was good enough that I could only do it for other people. And also give myself a back door out of those daily routines and commitments and structure that would prove my core trauma wrong as a child. That I'm not good enough because that's really what it is like for me.If for me, it was like, Oh, it's so easy. I'll go, I'll diagnose your problems. I'll give you the things. I'll help you do it. I'll pour all my energy into you. Then you'll like me, and then I'll be good enough. And then at the same time I'm living on that dopamine and validation will also deny my own sovereignty of that.I can do this and I know this. And then the belief system there, and the pain that I had to experience was you do deserve this. You can have a bigger impact this way, but you're good enough. And, and that had to happen in silence. Yeah. You're worth it. Right. Like for me, my core wound is I'm not good enough.ALEX:  I'm having like so many different, like first, I just want you to know this is a very validating conversation. And when you operate at the level that you and I operate as entrepreneurs, they're not maybe not the level, but when you operate at the level of awareness that we operate up.You often become, you often get invalidated because the other people around you don't even understand the conversation. Right. You know, I think what you just said, that is so true for so much of my career. Now, in retrospect, it's only, you see this in retrospect, I was not in the pursuit of success for myself, cause I didn't feel worthy.And I actually felt like the people around me were so much better than I was. That I put all my energy into helping those people all my time in it.  Other people get become far more successful than I was because in so many ways I still felt like I was, you know, the, the short, you know, Mex, lat, Latin American accent, chubby kid in school.Cool. That everybody made fun of it. And I really, you know, when I was at, I did not have a lot of friends. I had a really challenging childhood. I wasn't good at relationships and all of that carried forward to the business world to the point where. But, it made me an incredible consultant because I wanted to help everybody so bad so that I would get validation and be okay and be worthy and not be that kid that I was running away from.And dude, Oh man, now I'm going to get emotional. And, um,as time went on, what I realized was, and what I am realizing is that I could honor that kid. And that I could actually love that child,and be okay with who I used to be and understand why I was the way I was and understand everything that I went through. And the more that I was able to process it and be aware of it.And the more I was able to let go of the common entrepreneurial belief that  other people had it worse than I was. You kind of said it earlier. It's like a habit for us. As soon as we claim any type of trauma, we almost, I have to let out this relief valve. Oh well, but it wasn't as bad for me. You know, there was other people who had them and it wasn't that bad for me and it, but I I'm just going to claim a little bit of it.Yep. And the reality is every entrepreneur I've ever worked with has trauma that needs to be explored and validated and understood so that they can show up in the world the way that they want to, and the excessive reactivity that we carry around with us and the feelings we carry around with us, you know, George's, it's, it's one of the things that drives us into pursuit because.Here. Here's where I am today in my career. I understand that the goal is not the goal. The goal is the journey. Yes, it really is. It's the process it's going through it because here's what I know as an entrepreneur, as I have this analogy or theory that we are evolutionary hunters and I call it an analogy.But to me, I really do think this is evolutionary fact. We are that small percentage of the population that gets up every morning. Can't turn the motor off. It's always running we can't relax. We don't sit right. And we have this innate motivation to go into the future, create a new reality, come back to the present and then demand.It becomes real, no matter what we put up with. But the reality is, is no matter what goal or outcome or whatever it is that we put out there, as we are crossing the finish line, it loses all importance to us. As we're approaching the finish line, we start going, does this really matter? And it's because if you think about, if we're evolutionary hunters, The goal was never  the hunt just keeps the tribe alive.The goal is you go back on the hunt. Yeah. The goal is you stay hunting. The goal is keep doing it over and over again. And there's food for everybody for the whole time that we needed. And so, you know, I look at it, I, I feel like we are programmed to be in pursuit, but not really finished. And so the whole goal is entrepreneurs is how do you keep.How do you keep creating that future? That is compelling enough and bright enough and exciting enough and engaging enough that you do what it takes to put yourself through the crucible. GEORGE: Yeah. Yeah. Oh man. When you said, and by the way, thank you for the accountability on the, uh, I had it way worse or they had it.ALEX: it twice this week in my own event. I said, and then, and I even pointed out like, Hey, I just use the release valve. I want everyone to know that that's like an unhealthy behavior of invalidating yourselfGEORGE: And it's basically saying, I don't believe in myself enough, or I'm not in my space or power enough to own the fact that this was my truth.Yeah. And, and what I'm looking for. And quite frankly, as everybody wants to get into the monitor, George, what I'm looking for is for you too, without realizing and liked me a little bit  more because I experienced that while also add vacating it and doing it in a very subtle manipulative way and not in a bad manipulative way at heart bins in our subconscious all the time.Um, but this is why I love having friends like Alex, we get to talk about these things. Um, And the real, the real stuff. Well, I think what's so important about the real stuff. Alex is like, we talk about this, right? And we were talking about like, why we did what we did and why we consult them, why we still consult.And what I love is looking back. Cause I love my process through all of it. Like I had to do that. I had to learn that I had to be there. I had to not get that check. They had to not pay me that million dollars. Like I had to have all that happen. And now looking at it too the other side of it for me is I never understood the consequences of doing it for everybody else.The amount of sacrifices and collateral damage I caused because I wanted everybody else to like me versus everybody else respect me. And it was like, I'll go to a dinner. I didn't need to be at that dinner. I'll go to an event. I didn't need to be at that event. I'll go to that meeting. That was not a meeting.Like there were all these like ego fests that were. You know, validation collection, dopamine collection causing collateral damage and the ones I think that we swore as entrepreneurs, that we were doing it  "right". Like I'm doing it for my family. I'm like, well now pretty sure. My three year old son, isn't going to be like, daddy, don't go to them zoo with me, or don't see me for three days because you go to this meeting because you want these people to like you versus do the work that it's there.And I think, you know, if I could give a gift to any entrepreneur, uh, it's the gift of awareness of the. The impact and the consequences, both positive and negative. That happened when we do advocate that sovereignty as entrepreneurs. And we, and we get into that because it took me a long time. And I think it's still a practice, but it's a practice that I've, I love at this point.Like I kind of love saying no at this point. Sure. Can you do now? Why we don't need to, like, we have a dinner meeting. I'm like, no, we can have a zoom meeting. I'm not leaving. Right. ALEX: Well, you get to the point where it's saying no, actually becomes the dopamine hit because you have, I mean, and this takes a while, so I don't want anyone listening, not to think that it's going to happen by Monday, but what happens is.When you stop abdicating the responsibility, you have to create the life you want. And you start actually, cause man, George, when you were just talking about going to the meeting and doing this and doing that you just described like most of my thirties,  if there's, if there was an attention, getting the opportunity, I was in that attention, getting an opportunity with a whole line of justification for it.If there was a time and I got tons of opportunities, if I could get up on it. Really important stage with famous people. Like I was there no matter what. And a lot of the time it was for nothing else than the ego hit. Like really, it didn't even really build our business and build notoriety, but it was just building an ego hit. And I, when I look back at so much of that need for approval that need for validation that need for confirmation as an entrepreneur, when you finally realized that is so much of the, almost the automatic programming that's running, the decisions you're making, when you can start backing out of that and rising to a level of intention, everything changes.I had this really confronting Meaning with a coach of mine. I had this coach a while ago named Kirk Dando, super talented two guy and, um, Kirk and I became friends. That's why he was working with me. Most of the work that he did was with privately funded companies where he took a percentage and he was like a non named board member in dozens of companies.And we became friends. So he, he started working with me and we did a few, one days and he did a 360 for me and came in and interviewed my team. And he was doing the delivery of the 360. And we were in the middle of like, what about my team and what I wanted to do and where I wanted to go. And he said, you know what, Alex.You don't have investors behind you. Let's just cut the BS, man. What's the most important thing in your world. And the reason he said you didn't have investors behind you is cause I had options. Most of his CEOs didn't have options. He said that he was like, you have options. Let's talk about this. I said, well, George, that's not George.I said, Kirk, that's easy. The most important thing in my world is Katie and my kids. And he goes, great. Let's take five minutes, get your calendar out and get your bank account out. And let's look at your spending time and spending money on Katie and your kids. And that way we can see if you're growing and you're the most important thing in your world.And I know he could see the blood drain out of my face. Cause at that point it was like getting called to the principal's office. I remember immediately thinking, Oh, there's no way my calendar or my bank account are going to show any type  of like allegiance or affiliation to my family. Because up to, and including in the time I was with Kirk, I had been pushing them aside to get all this stuff done.And here's, what's interesting that meaning changed things. I actually went back to my room and sat down with Katie and I'm like, Katie, Kirk asked me this question that kind of knocked me backwards and I shared it with her and we talked about it for a long time. And from that point forward, I started shifting and I started saying, I need to assign responsibility to the things that are important to me.I needed to put more time to things that are important to me. You know, and, and I, I started building process, structure and routine around what was important to me. It's structured have spend time with family structure to make sure I was connected with my daughters structure to make sure that Katie and I had the time that we needed, otherwise, everything else just competes and wins.And here's, what's interesting, George by demand. Yeah. Ending the space and time for myselfby making that the most important thing. Suddenly my decision making in business got infinitely better. And almost overnight, we started moving in the right direction rather than spinning our wheels and not having things happen.And this is the thing that always like for most people feels like an oxymoron. When you first started doing this, I was putting less time in, but getting more results because when you start throwing up the constraints that are important, you look at time differently and you spend it differently. When you start allocating time to where you should be, not what you know to where you actually, when I say should be when you started actually allocating time around.What you want your life to look like your business will shift in a way that it actually gets to be the business that you want. You start building an organization that you really want. You start doing the things that you want. And it's interesting today at 47, you know, we, we, like I said, we reset a few years ago.We're around a little, little over 2.1 or 2.2 million in recurring revenue, right? Yeah. Now we're building this company completely differently. I'm, I'm absolutely not responsible for delivering. I built myself out of a lot of the responsibilities. And today I have a  business that I love working with people that are like incredibly fun people to work with.And I'm more focused on people development than anything else right now. Cause that's where we're going to grow the nexttime in our business. But what's most important is I wake up every morning. I align with my kids. They hang out with me, they know what we do. We talk openly. There's a completely different dialogue in our house.And all of that, I think makes me not think all of that I know. Makes me the entrepreneur I actually want to be, and it actually allows me to start making decisions for the person I'm becoming instead of the person I'm running away from. Yeah. And I think for entrepreneurs, you know, I think that the same, I've heard the same, say, you know, make the decisions for the person you're becoming, not the person you are.And I'm like, that's not how it works for entrepreneurs. We either make decisions for the person we're becoming or the person we're running away from. We don't make decisions for the person. We never get to the place where you're making decisions in the moment because we don't live in the present. Nope.What that small percentage of the population that doesn't really even deal well with the no.GEORGE: That's why we have to practice breathALEX: That's what I, you know, what was I did it this morning. I did like, like three huge empty breath holds this morning and just like feeling the experience of whether my body was calling for oxygen or my mind.And where was it coming from and how does this make me react during the day? And, you know, I get up from breathwork sessions now I laid down on my floor and do a breathwork session. I actually feel like I'm in the present moment for a period of time. Yeah. It's interesting. You like get up and you're like, Whoa, the world is really intense if you're here, you know?GEORGE: Yeah. That's why I get up so early in the morning, like I used to get up at four 30 for my ego to show everybody I got up at four 30. Now I get up at three 30 now I get up at three 30, so nobody knows. And like, people think I'm nuts, but I was like, I wake up with my kids at six and when I was getting before 35, like my, I would get home, my son will be awake. My wife wanted to sleep in, but she'll be up. And I was like, am I doing this? And I was like, I'm doing this for the wrong reasons. Like if I get up at three 30, I get. Two and a half hours of alone time I'm home before my son wakes up, I'm done with my writing. I'm completely present for the day. I'm supporting my wife with what she wants based on her job and like her responsibilities.And I was like, yeah, that feels better. Like, and that's like, and like, by the way, I don't listen to music. I don't listen to podcasts. I work out in silence and I'd say five out of six times a week, I'm crying, I'm yelling, I'm looking at myself in the mirror. Like I'm a silver back gorilla and patting my chest and then crying two minutes later.Like I'm processing whatever's coming up in that moment you know, one of the things, yeah, ALEX:   Let's not run past that because that, what you just said is so crucial. So let me, let me tell you how I used to work out. Yeah. So what I would do is, and this is during my four 30 in the morning taking a picture, so I could prove to everybody that I did it.So when I was doing the four 30 in the morning, prove to everybody that you did it, it was get up at four 30 in the morning, drink coffee, then wait about 20 or 30 minutes, drink a pre-workout because the coffee wasn't enough. You need to back it up with a pre-workout. Then go into the gym, close the doors.And we had a gym in our home. We close the doors, put towels under the doors. And then put on like limp biscuit or something ridiculous where it's just screaming and raging and yelling, and then get myself into a state where I could lift weights and not feel it. So I would get myself into fight or flight and then fight for an hour and a half with my gym.And it was like going, you know, and, and I don't mean to use this term in a way that indicates that I don't understand what it is really like to go to war because I don't want to minimize anything. Guys. What guys like you and the people that you were around, did George. But I feel like I went to my own little private one in the gym every morning.Totally. And, and it was cause it was instead of feeling the feelings and moving through them, it was creating so much noise and so much pain that I could push the feelings away. Yep. And, you know, I, I remember at my biggest, I looked back, it was probably like seven or eight years ago. I was about 240 pounds and going on Fox news.And I remember like seeing myself in the suit, my shoulders didn't fit in the screen. I looked completely inflamed. My neck and my head were kind of one thing. And recently a person on my team found an old Wistia video on me on Fox. And she's like, man, I saw Alex on Fox news from a while ago. I'm so glad I worked for this Alex and not that guy. Just watching the videos. He could tell, like how, how accelerated and how angry and , how detached I was. And I think, yeah. So many entrepreneurs think that they're, they're doing this incredible thing, working out and getting themselves in shape. And then I watched the workouts on not online and I'm like, man, why that might not be going in the right direction.GEORGE: Workouts for me are a tool like breath and they didn't use to be, they used to be an escapism for me. Right. And trust me, I was doing three days. I taught a world record for standing box shop. I was a competitive CrossFit athlete. Like my numbers are stupid. Stupid right. I'm five, seven. I can dunk. There's like, it's not mind blowing.And I was also dead lifting like six, 15 squatting, like five 85. I weighed 170 pounds. Like it was gnarly. Nowhere does that help me be a better human to my family? Right. But my ego loved it. ALEX: Standing there practicing the jump box jumper.Oh yeah. At one point I went not being a runner to actually going out and winning races in Austin, winning five Ks, 10 Ks, like going out and getting first, second or third place. And if there was a Clydesdale division, I always wanted it. 7,000 person race. I was first placed in Clydesdale. I was 240 pounds and I was the first place in Clydesdale.Because I was willing to do whatever it took. I finished that race and threw up about seven or eight times. Cause I pushed my body so hard. I still got first place. That was all I cared about. But I look back now and I'm like, dude not only will you, not in your body, you weren't in Austin during that?GEORGE:  and then given more trauma and then came out without doing any of the work.And I remember my wife's like, you know, you should do personal development. Like I read books. That was my answer. Yeah. That didn't go well fast forward, eight years. And there we go. And now we're here we are now. Um, but yeah, I was, and then I had this like really big shift after my son was born where I realized like, wow, I can be in shape if I want, I can look, however I want, I can function however I want, but it's also a tool like it's an hour and a half a day or two hours a day that if I utilize it correctly, I can do it.I'll never forget. I was in the jungle with a shaman and, you know, lots of wise wisdom come from shamans to me.  You know, one of them was like talking about relationships happening for a reason season or lifetime. And then you know, then a personal development teacher looked at me one day scrolling, and I said, what are you pretending not to know?Which hit me like a ton of bricksand then somebody else is like, what are you trying to avoid feeling? And that was the one that got me and it was the feeling part. Right. And so then I like looked at my day and I was challenged by Shaman said, I want you to eliminate. Any music with lyrics for 30 days, just get rid of it, get rid of it.Okay, cool. And I would listen to like music, like upbeat music, like I wasn't into like bitches and hoes, like all that stuff. And you know, but I would listen to music, but I would listen to music that allowed me to be romantic about who I used to be, or pretend that something was going to shift for me by doing nothing.And it was programming my brain into like the stagnation. And I was like, okay, cool. And I remember it was one of the hardest things ever to not have the radio on, in the car because what did I have to be present? I had to be with whatever was coming up and then going to the gym. I was like, okay. Right.And I'm like, don't lift. And all of a sudden I lost a hundred pounds on lift because I didn't have anything to like put me into that sympathetic state. And it was crazy, crazy what happened. And then for a wild, like this adoption period, I started to fall in love with it. And then I realized that. When I was there, the days that I was present and grounded, I felt like in my body and like emotionally good, I was lifting like crazy.And then there were days that like, It hurt to do a warmup and then I would scream or I would cry or I would laugh or I be like, I don't want to be here today. And then I could never walk out the door, but I was literally in the moment experiencing my experience and my feelings and it kind of became therapy for me.I rank it out? Can I yank it out? And then, or where can I go plug into somebody else's world to avoid mine? Right. Right.And then it was like, I have more work to do. I have more work to do. I have more work to enlist and entrepreneurs, your list will never end. And that's why it's so important. Like when you talk about structure, Alex structure gives us the container because no matter what we do, we're going to fill it. So if you give yourself a 24 hour container, you're going to find ways to fill it.But if you give yourself a two hour container, you'll fill it, but you also have to fill it with the stuff that moves the needles, move the levers and eliminates the bullshit. And that's been one of those things for me that I think in what you do and there's this belief like this paradigm around entrepreneurship, right?Like I can do whatever I want. I can do whatever I want. And I was like, yes. And you have to realize that the moment you start being that is you lose the thing that built it and you end up right back where you started. ALEX: Yeah. Yeah. I love Maxwell's. You know, John, there's a lot of stuff that John Maxwell's put out that I just, that is so true.It's just truth. And he has this chart of  the more leadership responsibility you have, the less freedom you have. And it's this very confronting belief system that the more responsibility I take on as a leader the less freedom that you actually have. And what you're doing is you're exchanging that freedom for making a massive contribution.And I think that. People want to argue. I have entrepreneurs all the time. Like one argue that and debate it. Yeah. And I always like at the end of the day, if you'd want to debate it, you can. But the fact is right only going to slow you down over time. And man George, that was intense. What you just shared because I think it's probably seven or eight years ago.It's definitely living in this house. I know, because in my gym here, I have a huge sound system and I built it so that I could go down into the gym. So I didn't hear anything in the world. I didn't even hear the weights clanking together because that sound was so high. I probably haven't turned that on in six or seven years, because now I look at my workouts, totally different.My workouts used to be an escape. It used to be like, go in, check out, get all this stuff done, working out with your body and then come out. But really not a lot of recall or recollection of what happened. And I, and a lot of like feeling here, like I did something, but not really connecting to everything that happened in the gym.Yeah. Yeah. I love Maxwell's. You know, John, there's a lot of stuff that John Maxwell's put out that I just, that is so true.It's just truth. And he has this chart of  the more leadership responsibility you have, the less freedom you have. And it's this very confronting belief system that the more responsibility I take on as a leader the less freedom that you actually have. And what you're doing is you're exchanging that freedom for making a massive contribution.And I think that. People want to argue. I have entrepreneurs all the time. Like one argue that and debate it. Yeah. And I always like at the end of the day, if you'd want to debate it, you can. But the fact is right only going to slow you down over time. And man George, that was intense. What you just shared because I think it's probably seven or eight years ago.It's definitely living in this house. I know, because in my gym here, I have a huge sound system and I built it so that I could go down into the gym. So I didn't hear anything in the world. I didn't even hear the weights clanking together because that sound was so high. I probably haven't turned that on in six or seven years, because now I look at my workouts, totally different.My workouts used to be an escape. It used to be like, go in, check out, get all this stuff done, working out with your body and then come out. But really not a lot of recall or recollection of what happened. And I, and a lot of like feeling here, like I did something, but not really connecting to everything that happened in the gym.GEORGE: Like the guy over here covered in tattoos that had a blue Mohawk. When you met him, Right. Like that guyALEX:  Something like that. You know, it was like, I'm never going to be in a place of being traumatized again by a room I'm gonna walk in and have everyone back at, you know, take a step back and.Now, you know, when I go work out, one of the, I have for a workout is a dry erase pen. My whole gym is surrounded in mirrors and there are so often I will be in the middle of a set. And this is like the Cardinal sin of working out. You're like almost to the place where you're done and I'll just drop the weight it's and go write down everything that just came to me.Yeah. Because yeah. Now it's more important. The realization is more important than finishing this app. And the belief system, you know, the beliefs that I can work through and the processing that I do is so much more important than the weight that I'm lifting. And I remember there was a point in my life where if I had a workout where the next workout, I didn't do more. I couldn't deal. It was demoralized thousand percent out. I don't even feel it. I'm like, wow, that was a great workout. I lifted half the weights, but look at the whiteboardGEORGE:  Well, even, even the point of like stopping a set, like way to diminish seven reps of progress. RightALEX: It's like, man, I just threw it all away. Yeah. And you know, the, the, like the beliefs that we built when we're in the gym, the last set is where you earn over the last rep is where you earn it. So you're always chasing the last rep. Now I'm like, man, I don't want to lose this thought. GEORGE: Well, and then like really looking at what sets us apart as leaders.Right? Cause we're, we're when we say entrepreneurial, we're talking about leaders, we're talking about the small percentage of the world, right. That's willing to stand in a new belief system and I love the way that you described, like going into the future, but really. You know, when I wrote my personal mission statement for my life it's to stand with structure in the face of resistance to create possibility.Like, that's it. That's, that's what we do. And it's like, it's actually, the wind was when you made a commitment and you kept your word with integrity to get to the gym. You've already won. Everything at that point is bonus. Right? It's strengthening it's fortification it's reflection. It's you know, and like, yeah, if you have 30 pounds to lose and you do one wrap, like don't expect a result, but be aware of like, what's there, but it's really the intention that we put behind everything.And when you say it, right, you got up, yes. You create the structure and you commit to the routine and that's, it's the combination of those things. That is the wind. And you, I mean, I'm the same way, except for me right now, I realized. You know, in the last couple of years, I fell out of love with myself again, like at a deep, deep, deep level.And I was looking at it and I was working out crazy before lockdown. And I was like, okay, cool. And I was like, I'm posting videos every day. And I was like, looking back when it locked down and I didn't have a gym, we went up to the mountains and I was like, man, I really don't want to do anything. I don't want to do anything.I don't want to do anything. And I literally was like, why. And I was like, because I can't, because I don't like why I'm doing it. And I don't know why I want to. And I gained a lot of weight again, and I fell in love with my dad bod, but I gained a dad bought first.  And then I looked at it and then I was playing with my son and I'm up here and I'm like, You know, this isn't what I want.And I was like, why? And I was like, I somehow fell out of love with myself, or this was an opportunity where I hadn't fully loved myself yet. Like, I hadn't loved where I was versus the guy with the big muscles or the tattoos, or could do this. Wait. So it was really interest because I started working out again and it feels different.It feels different. And then all of a sudden I wanted to get up here and it felt different and my workouts are very different. It felt different and I'm not humble, bragging. Like I just enjoy the process, but what's really interesting, Alex is I went through this point and I always wear like cutoff shirts.I won't take my shirt off. I still was struggling with self-consciousness and everything else. And then this, then I'm going to cry. But like 35 days ago, I went to the gym one morning and I was like, I'm not working out with a shirt on. I get to look at myself. Every moment of every rep every day. And every time I look in the mirror, I just get to tell myself I love myself.And it's a really interesting, because I started this challenge with my, with my business partner to lose weight, right. Like I was like, okay, I'm two 10, my fighting weights, like one 75. I want to be back there. 55 days of eating ma

This week on Random Thoughts With Rae, Rae did a podcast with Nate and a special guest from another podcast. Oh this was a good funny podcast, they talked about, dating sites, weird things people are into. The first 20 min will get you rollin!! Check out some quotes from the show. Rae “That’s the site you found your girlfriend??” Nate “Ok so, you like to have people pour Heinz ketchup on your balls?” Rae “Why would you admit on TV how Fucked up you are” Nate “Swipe right I got Toilet paper” George “Oh You did that online stalking shit” Rae “Only if they get caught “ George “It’s MySpace if your freaky” We ALWAYS love hearing from our listeners, please reach out to us through InstaGram or e-mail us any questions you may have or topics you would like to hear! We LOVE hearing from our listeners!!! Who knows you maybe a guest on the show! Instagram - RandomThoughtsWithRae RandomThoughtsWithRae@gmail.com YouTube - Random Thoughts With Rae --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/datingsuckslifehappens/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/datingsuckslifehappens/support

George: And this one's probably going to be the most decorative that you've seen. I didn't send Steve a bottle of whiskey, but I'm stoked to have him. And if you don't know who Steve Sims and I don't know why you're listening to my fucking podcast, because he is a dear friend of mine. And probably the original guy that cared about relationships. So from bricklayer in London to stockbroker, to getting fired in five days. Now the art of blue fishing and getting people to the bottom of the ocean Titanic people married in the Vatican. Steve I'm so stoked to have you, and so stoked to be here. How are you my friend?George: I'm just so glad that I bumped into you in Encino a couple of years ago, and we had those conversations, but Steve, I'd like to start these with a fun one and you always deliver. And my first question for everybody is what is the biggest mistake that you've ever made in business and what'd you learn from it?Steve Sims: Keeping it a business. There's this old statement that we've raised up on like a load of myths that are no longer relevant. Don't take it personal it's business. Is personal and the more personal you can make it, the better the business will be. So I remember I tried to kinda like keep my personality out of it. Keep what would end up becoming my brand away from the business connection. I'm making the business connection, such a connection, if was a transaction and it was sterile. And there was no connection, and worse there was no growth. So I learned very early on to get rid of that phrase and it's cancer as 21 that adopts it.Geroge: Steve and I met, we just bumped into it. Like, I like you, I like you let's talk. And I even like went on a whim, but I think that's probably an in the current state of the world, the thing that everybody's missing, I mean, you and I both have people slotting into our DMS, like, Hey, I don't know you. I'm not going to spit on my hand, but yeah. Will you marry me? Come into business with me. And people are destroying their businesses, their relationships, their life, and credibility, because they don't understand that. And I don't know no more social media lives. Like, I, I love what I love about you. It's like, Hey, let's have whiskey online. Like, here's my bulldog. Here's my kids that don't learn enough yet. You're not, you're not fast enough on the motorcycle. Like here I go. And it's like, you give the whole picture, not this "social media life" that everybody pretends to have.Steve Sims: Well, it's just filtered. Isn't it. You can get so many filters and it's kinda weird. You can get so many filters for your Instagram and your videos to make it look, slimmer, smarter, prettier, tanned, you know, he's just ridiculous. And I've never understood it walking to the pub and you brought it up. You made the comment that if I walked into the pub and I bumped into you, literally bumped into you and spit your beer. We're too big lads. We could dance or we could be courteous and go, sorry, man. I spill your beer. I apologize, mate. I'll buy you a beer. We may suddenly strike into a conversation. We may speak, spen time chatting, but here's the thing. If I got any, have that conversation wrong, when would I turn around and go, Oh, hang on a minute, George. I didn't mean to say I'm going to step out. We're going to re edit that, and then I'm going to come back in and go, Oh, Hey George, we don't edit life. Therefore, why should we edit how people see it? I think we've all got warts. We all go to the toilet. We've all got shit that we've done wrong. And usually that's where we've grown most.And so I, my wife always says, and I'm going off of a van here. My wife often says that In the mall comic series of superhumans, my superhuman strength is the power of ignorance. I do and then I think about it. So I've never allowed intelligence and too much thought to get in the way of what I do. So yeah, if you like it and it resonates and it relates and it helps. Great. If it bothers an earth shoe that it's not got a perfect 10 on it, or I'm not looking slim enough, or I haven't got my combat shin over the shoulder, look, then I can move on.George: And I think it's you embodied this and it's why I've loved you since day one but when we think about it too, is a lot of the stuff that people portray in that container. It's not sustainable because it's pretend right. Like, it's like, I got to turn it on. I got to look a certain way. I got to go and they wonder why people don't trust them. Like you and I both play with relationships all day and everyone's like, Oh no, what he buys for me, nobody trusts me. I'm like, that's cause they can feel the snake in your grass. Like that's not you, that's not real. And so how do you do you recommend? Cause like we live in a pretty crazy world right now. But we've been digital for a long time and in the way that I see it, I think there's two buckets that I see.It's like who I'm pretending to be and who I really, really am. And every single time I see it. Even the ones that are pretending to be, they're like, Oh, I'm going to get there. I'm like, no, you might hit seven figures, but you're going to crash and have to launch again next year. That's why you have your third Instagram account or your seventh offer or your 27th product. And then there's the people that are like, this is who I am unapologetically, like authentic, documenting and creating that but you're the master of this. You've done everything from, I mean, I still. I still like I'm blown away when I hear some of the shit that you do. And I love it to pieces and all of it really, like, I remember the story. I remember you being like, nobody remembers the little guy. I remember the guard at the Vatican and having a relationship with him and sending a book. And that's not because you're like, Hey, I'm Steve. Like, I'm the bald Irish whiskey drinking got fired. Tell about relationships for you. So like, how do you recommend people navigate these times right now? Because we live in a time where all the attention is increased, but I feel like the level of connection has decreased.Steve Sims: That last two seconds of your statement, there was the most powerful and up but I want to make a correction. So your statement, thank you very much for plays and meat. I'll take it all day long and I'll be very happy with it, but it's not relevant.Steve Sims: The reason I look and appear so good at communicating with people is quite simply because the rest of the planet has got so shitty at it, you know. That's why I looks so great. I can't smoke the shit, you know, I'm not very, you know, warm and fuzzy. I'm not endearing. I just call it as it is and that clarity, that transparent as what's got me through. You see, there's two things you got to understand. Today we're in a world where with social distance. Today we're in a world where everyone's our home and we've been pulled away from the ability to walk up to a body in the street and just go, dude, how are you doing? Give a back slab, give a handshake, you know, kiss, your wife will lose in the ability to be able to do that and we're missing it. So we're actually desperate to connect with people. Now here's the bad thing. We will screaming, our we're socially distancing is horrible. I don't like living like this.We've been socially distancing for the last 20 years. Since the birth of friendster and facebook all the way along. You posted a picture of your baby up on site. Doesn't tell the family what the baby looks like. You know, try to get around, get out there, meet. I'm from the eighties.And my good friend, Jay Abraham, I always say the good thing about Jay is he brings the eighties back. If wanted to talk to someone and this I'm talking about now. I wanted to talk to someone. I would often send them an email or send them a text and we know about a power text. I would send them a text and go George I'm in your area next Tuesday, do you mind if we get together for a coffee like mid day, is that okay? Or is another time going to be better for you? Now here's the thing, I may well not be in your area, but if you respond. I'm going to be, you know. So, and I would just do that and I would actually force it. I've said to people, look, let's come back to that next Tuesday and we'll chat about it then.And then I've literally turned up at that office and the send Steve's here, and I said, look, I've set up, be here Tuesday, you know, let's chat. People liked that, but also here's the dumb thing that was common because that was the only way we did it back then.Now, it's novel. It's innovative. And here's the thing he shows he Gaz, you know, so I think the bottom line of it is I'm not brilliant at communicating well, we're in a world where people are desperate to communicate. So why don't you try it rather than sticking a post up on?George: And I think too, when you think about it, I think what happened when like Friendster, Napster, Myspace, Facebook, all the things came around is everybody thought that it was a different world, but it was just a tool to create in the world and they utilized it incorrectly and it became. And like I wrote this post the other day. I'm like, the problem is as it used to have, two ears and one mouth. I was like, but now you have two ears, 10 fingers, and you prematurely ejaculate on the keyboard all day and you got to slow it down, but like it's a tool. And I think I've watched people and this is why I love your book. I love what you teach. I love everything that we do together is because. Nothing exists without that relationship. Nothing like you can be meet somebody on Facebook all day. You can like all their crap. You can have them click their ads, you can support them, but you'll will walk up to them in person and you'll have to reintroduce yourself and they'll have no fucking clue who you are. That is not a relationship at all. Not at all.Steve Sims: I've had, I've had periods in my life. And I remember one back in the nineties And I had money and I had stupid fuckin you money. And I remember going into London once and I wasn't even living in London, I was in Livington and that time. And walked into a Ferrari dealership and bought the car with my Amex.You know, literally came out with a brand new 355 on my Amex, Kevin. I was of that standard and then the shit hit. The recession went down or and you know, the funny thing is. Amex never had my bank. You know, the bank that I was with, which enjoyed my fees for years never had my bank. The people that had my back, the people that I fought up was like, Oh crap, this is, this is going downhill. And it's about, and they were like, let's have a coffee, let's see what we can do together. And I suddenly realize it wasn't my bank account that I needed to have been focusing on. It was my equity and credibility, in my relationships, in my connectivity. Luckily it was strong so that I was able to look at the bank and go that is not my friend. The bank is never going to be your friend, but it doesn't matter how much money you have in the bank because you can all guarantee it's going to go up and it's going to go down.Steve Sims: But if you've got relationships, that's really where the power comes through. That's really where it opens up the doors of the Vatican or sends you down to the Titanic or put you on stage with whatsoever. It's those friendships that are key and the dull thing is we've already identified. Relationships are getting harder today. Not because they're harder to make, but because you've decided not to put any effort into it. So we need the relationship, but we're not having the relationship. We're human beings. We yearn for it. And guess what? As we go on, Amazon's going to get smart as Siri or Alexa, we're becoming transactional and then when moaning, because we've isolated, we have no one to talk to. You know, your fault.George: And I actually loved the Spargo. You got them to make your cocktail, Hey, go pick it up and get out. I think Steve, like what I love about you? I mean, I consider us friends even in the beginning when, like I met you. I see these things in these people, in our industry and outside of our industry, walk around with chips on their shoulders. Like first they think their shit doesn't stink. And get away from me. Don't talk to me. Or the other side is somebody is afraid to come talk to them because they literally don't think their shit stinks.And the truth is like, at the end of the day, we're all human. And it's like, you've treated every single person I've ever seen myself included, like the humility and dignity and then like, if I fuck up, you tell me. But not really. You're like, Hey, let's talk about it. Let's go. Let's get in. And it's common practice for you. And what's interesting to me is that most people don't understand that at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what business you have, what product you have, what servers you have. There's still a human being, making a decision and spectrum to make a decision with no depth of a relationship.None whatsoever. And so like, I listened to it and like people I watch people like give you the credit, like, he did this probably cause he asked them how their morning was probably it was when he walked by, he wasn't looking at his phone. He was looking at their eyes. Like, there's so many parts of this world that people are screaming for it and I agree with you. I get frustrated right now. Like I'm, I'm online just as much as you are. Everyone's like, Oh, I wish we could get together or I wish they call me back and we'll go pick up the phone and call them, like, send them a text, like build a relationship. So when you think about, you know, relationships in humans, the way that I see it from your side and mine, is every single person I come into contact with Israel relationship. It's a potential relationship. It's a potential touch point. And my job is to improve upon that silence, to learn something about them, to see if I can support them in any way, make an introduction, have a touch point, make a memory. How do you go about like creating relationships, nurturing relationships, navigating relationships cause you're pretty good at it.Steve Sims: So the first thing I do is I'm a selfish prick. I am totally selfish. And we're taught as kids not to be selfish. Usually it's the mum that goes now don't be selfish,share your sweets. Now in that context, that's fine. But today you need to be selfish, especially if you've got drive and ambition. Be selfish and what that means is. Don't waste your timethat doesn't benefit anyone.Don't look after those two. Won't look after you. Don't have someone's back the one of your back. All right. So whenever I get into a relationship and it sounds strange, but I'm very selfish when I get in a relationship and I want to know.Is this person gonna invigorate, entice, scare, motivate smile, make me money, you know, any of those things. And I've got relationships that make me millions of dollars. I've got relationships where whenever we get together, I know I'm paying the bar tab because I'm taking them to the bars I drinking. Not the shit, but they make me smile and they challenge me.So then needs to be a benefit in a relationship. So whenever I meet anyone. And this can usually be assumed. Like, you know, when you're at an RV muzzle, or when you're one of your events, the you've already filtered the caliber of people to be in that room. So you you came to a point go, well, I like George, so I'm gonna like these people, I just need to get to know them.So whenever you speak to someone, we'll go, okay. How is this person? First question. How is this person going to help me? And then before you ask for that help or request, that help bring value to that game. You know, and it may be a case of, Hey, it's really good at you. You joke about the Vatican.It was just down the vote from the Vatican, but when I was working in Florence I had to work with I did a whole thing in Florence where I took over museum and I had a private dinner party in the academia, the gallery at the feet of Michelangelo's David and had Andrea Bocelli coming you know, that story. But when I got there that night now on driver people and up I have security guards for Andrea and for the museum. All right. And there was the doorman. He was like a, not joking, probably 400 pound. Couldn't couldn't have done anything, you know, and wasn't paid to do anything. It's basically like, you know, the shopping mall, you know, security.As we turned up, I went to walk in, it was chilly. And I said to him, I said, yeah we all went all good evening. Then he was even, I was intimidated by you are walking in with Andrea Bocelli in Italy, you know, it was pricey like walking in with Elvis, you know, and he was all kinda like chili and stuff like that.And I said to him, you cold. I think he's like, yeah, just that I didn't, there was a nip in the air and, and, and it's, it can get a bit cold. So I went in and the first thing I did before I paid attention to anybody else was I actually went in and I got a cup of coffee and I took it out to him on a little tray with some creamer and some sugars. And I went, there you go. And he was, would have moon, but you know, the funny thing is when I walked back in everyone looking at me, because I had left all of these big players, these scary security guards, these people with money, and I've gone to pay attention to the security guard.And so then what we did afterwards was I said to him, I said that I don't want to bring it up, but I can see you feeling a little bit guilty that I paid attention to him. And you didn't. Yeah, kind of a big deal in Italy and the planet. Do you want to step outside and just say hello to him? And he was like, I'd love to, and I'd love too. This guy was older.So I was getting paid a handsome amount of money to make this happen yet, the first 20 minutes of that night, we spent hanging around with the doorman.Now the amount of people that actually wrote emailed me found out about me because the doorman, not because of the climb, that when no one knows she's name, I've never declared his name, but that dormant my profile by another 250 people because he went home and he was, and here's the dumb thing. They contacted me. They didn't contact on Jaya. They contacted me because I was the instigator to make it happen. Focus on those people. Like you say, we've all been to events where these people think that bigger than shit. And I've spoken at some of the biggest stages in the planet and I've spoken from Harvard to the Pentagon and the funny thing is you get these people on stage and they want to be left alone backstage. They won't do selfies with the other speakers that are coming through the ranks. And I have always made sure out of my way to get to know every speaker, whether I agree with them or not, or whether or not I like that speech, I can always decide afterwards, not hanging up but I've always got to know all of them. And I've known some of these others have been collide. No, I'm I'm bigger than you. I demand more money than you. And the funny thing is I've been in this game of speaking luxury industry, 10 years in the influence of self-help market, like 3 or 4. And I've noticed some of those small players are now big players and some of are big players are now dull and boring and repetitive, and no one wants them on that stage. So always look after everyone in your sample.George: And the truth is, is that every single thing is a touchpoint. And in my opinion, the way that I look at relationships is whether you, realize it or not is when you touch somebody, it is either progressing that relationship forward or it's regressing it backwards. There's very little neutrality. I'm like you ignore somebody it's backwards. You don't acknowledge somebody. It's backwards. You take the time to have a conversation with somebody it's forward.George: And I don't think most people realize the exponential qualities of quality touch points. Cause like, you know, you and I have done a lot. We've spoken a lot. We've been around this and there's those people that like their shit doesn't stink. Don't talk to me backstage. They didn't book themselves on the stage and they're ignoring everybody. You just take a moment to talk to people around them. They're the ones that are going to go spread the message about you. They're the ones that are going to go do it. Just like you talked about Jonah Berger talks about this and contagious all the time. And I think it, it leads to a really quality point and I love the fact that I want to, I want to reiterate this.You have to be selfish because that means that you are super crystal clear on who you are and what you need, which is the only place that you can actually serve and add value to somebody else to authentically or else it feels transactional or manipulative.And so for everybody who's like, Oh no, like I say it all the time, add value first. Of course you do, but you have to know who you are and be grounded to add that value or else those people can't have a relationship with you. They cannot respond to you because they're going to feel icky. Like in people, like, why do they feel like you were, they're not talking about like, you gotta be honest and authentic with them. Like, that's what I love about it. Like, I have no problem being like, yeah, I'm coming to see you. Cause I need it. She would introduce me to somebody, but what can I do for you first? Like what can I do for you first? And so that leads me to a really, really good point and this is what I love about you is, you're not afraid to use your voice and it's not that you're different for it, but like you understand the power of yourself and authenticity, even your kids. And I love watching everything that you do, but I have so many people that are like, I can't say that. I'm like, why not? And they're like, Oh, what are they going to think? I'm like, well, they're gonna think whatever they want to cause you're not giving them anything else to think right now. Like I never, and I mean, I never ever want to allow somebody else to come to their own conclusions about me, my beliefs, my stance, or where I sit. I always want to be the person that's. It was like, this is who I am. This is what I believe in. How do you feel about that? Think about that. See that in the world for everybody listening to this.Steve Sims: Again, they are for a start that's a calculation Elon Musk and Einstein put together couldn't solve. You know, it's these people that go, well, hang on a minute. I want people to look at me like they're so I don't want to do this because I need them to think of me like that. That's a lot of assets. And I can't understand why people aren't very tired trying to be people who they're not. So as we've always said before, this is me. The way I look at it is there are billions of people in the planet.If 10% of those people are curious about me. And 1% of that 10% do business with me. I still have it money to buy you know? So you haven't got to overcomplicate it. You said before about the snake in the grass, make it impossible to misunderstand, make it so obvious that there's no distraction.Steve Sims: I told when I coach with, with some of my people. About the big C. Now, if you say to someone in, in the world or the big C, they know it's cancer, the big C in business is confusion, and he's just as deadly as cancer. Cause you can't take a tablet to get rid of it. No confused person will ever do business with you.And here's the other bad thing. No confused person. There's just make use, going to turn around and go well, can you explain your stance on it because I'm not getting that. They're not just going to piss off to someone else who's more, more clear about it. So you saying something that alienates this person he's going to grab this person. And if you do it, you'll find that your energy level goes up because you're not spending energy on trying to be someone you're not we're in a very superficial world. And it goes back to the filters where everyone is trying to make out that every single one of that days is beautiful. Sunshine, beautifully. Perfect. And I shift pulled together.No one shits pulled together. You know, everything goes long. Couple of days ago, I went down on my credit score by 115 points in one uptight. And yeah, we've been COVID, I'm being very careful what, with money, I'm reducing my liabilities, paying off my credit cards cause we don't know how long this shit's going to be going on volt. So I'm doing all the good things and I paid my mortgage forward by five months. Cause I thought, okay, I'm going to be, if the shit hits the pan, I got five months to get at it. So I did all of these things. My credit score went down by over a hundred points. for a week. I was like, what's going on? We found out that some of a point, I just seem strangely enough, my own bank and recorded a delinquent account. And I posted it on my account rather than the client's account. So they quickly removed it, but the bottom line of it is for three days, I had no idea what the hell was going on.So the bottom line of it is that even when it's not your own doing shit happens, you know, and shit happens to absolutely everybody. I don't want to waste any of my energy, trying to persuade you to be in my circle. It's here. It's obvious. It's blatant. It's sometimes rude. It's definitely direct. I welcome you into my sandpit, but if it doesn't suit your fantasy, No harm, no foul.George: I love that. And actually that brings me to the point, cause you, you nailed this and we're all kind of here. Like I lost a business in the middle of this right. Supplement company, basically gone. We went from doing 8 million to nothing due to circumstances. You and I both do events. We haven't done events, we haven't done anything. but I think what I've witnessed, Steve is one of two things. Cause I know your phone was ringing off the hook. My phone was ringing off the hook. Like what do we do? And I was like the opposite of what you're doing now, which is nothing. And I'm like, if you stare at a flat tire, it doesn't change itself.And so can you talk about, you know, cause we have a lot of experience, a lot of people falls here. There's a whole lot of uncertainty in the world. There's a whole lot of ambiguity. We don't know what's happening, but we also can't sit idly by and just wait for something to happen for us. Like nobody's coming out to save us. You've had to pivot, I've had to pivot. So how have you gone about that? And like, where are you focusing your time and energy during this uncertainty to create momentum or progress, or even fuck even the possibility of something happening?Steve Sims: I'm going to go out on a limb here and probably piss some people off. I think COVID is fantastic. Hand up. I don't want it to continue. But for the first couple of months, I was like, Game on. It wasn't a case of these people were making money. These people were not, everyone was stopped. Everyone had all of that businesses, no matter what business, it was just ground to a hole. Everyone was in the same boat. And as we mentioned at the beginning, the game was on and it wasn't a choice of asking you, do you want to play this game? You were playing. So did you want to sit on the bench and cry and mope and fricking binge watch Netflix? Or did you want to turn around and go, well, hang on a minute. All right. I'm in the game now, let me see how much I can control and believe it or not, entrepreneurs are a lot more in control of themselves than what a lot of people give them credit for. We all there's functional with disruptors. So the bottom line of it is we've been given this situation.Now I had a couple of weeks where I saw my travel industry slow up. I saw nothing for about two weeks, my team and my staff refund. I showed digits should dive bombers on my bank account. And then I went home. How can I make this work for me and not against me? And the first thing I did was I cleaned up my desk, you know, I know it sounds funny together. Polish my desk, and put everything back on. There was a project that could benefit me, reading books. Redefining my course, I launched a fake shallow plug. I launched a Facebook page. There's free of charge called an entrepreneur's advantage. And I just started bringing people into that. Anyone could join that. I launched a virtual happy hour. Which was the dumbest thing in the world. Well, I thought to myself come far tonight, I like to go out with my pals and just drink a whiskey. Why don't I do it online? And I said, look, do you want to join me on online? And I'll do a virtual happy hour. We had about 80 people join us for watching me make an old fashion. And then we told the most appalling jokes. These really are embarrassing jokes. And you know, the funny thing is. We did that on the second week of COVID and we've done it. We missed a couple of weeks. We've done this for about 14 weeks now, you know, and people are loving it.Steve Sims: The bottom line of it is I realized that needed taken advantage. I've done a lot more,I cleaned up my desk, cleaned up my garage, cleaned up a wardrobe, cleaned up my business. Cleaned up my focus. Cleaned up my intentions, cleaned up by impact. What am I wanting out of this? You know, what am I going for now? The funny thing is, and we talked about speed earlier. There's always a sign that fast is slow and slow is fast. Anyone that's ever been on a racetrack knows that you need to carry a momentum. Not speed. And there's a massive difference. The guy that goes into a corner at 130 mile an hour, going into a, to a 90 degree bend he's off in the dirt.So you've gotta be able to nail your entry speed on your ass and keep the momentum going through it. I've been able to look at whatever I'm doing and tweak and edit. The downside is pre COVID. The world was rosy. Everything was going out. We were doing really well. We were a fast car and the trouble is people tried to keep that speed.When you've got that speed, you can't turn on the next right hand, turn in, you know, you miss it. So if you can slow up and look at what COVID is done, which has put the brakes on and going, okay, where was I headed? You know, what was the brand people were associated me with? What was my messaging? What was my click funnels? What was my next booklet? You've now been given a book, beautiful chance to look in the mirror on absolutely everything you've got. I've been going through subscriptions. First thing I did was I downloaded three months credit card statements and we highlighted all the subscriptions. And then we went to these work for, or against me, or they have no relevance. Get rid of a load of subscriptions. I actually found myself increasing some of the subscriptions. Enjoying COVID everyone wants money. So little trick for you. If you've got any kind of like CRM mail program, web hosting, find out what the yearly package offer is at the moment. I got basically a 50 to 60% discount on all of these things by moving into an annual.So it's all paid up. It's all done. So I'll be very much focusing on mate. I've done something which I've never been able to do before. I've read the classics. You know, how many of us have heard of the book? How many of us have ever read that? You know, I meant the original copy, you know, the original truck, not the edited version. I read original copy, stunned, how relevant and all of it in there. It was talking about the disruption of radio, you know, and I'm think, well, okay, it's funny. Cause it's called radio, but change the word radio to tik tok. And the argument is still the same. It's not a plumb line of it is I read, I read so many books.I got so many smart, I ditched projects that I was working on because they didn't infuse me. They didn't excite me. They didn't arouse me. So I was talking to a client probably better than summary of this. I've got a client mine in Ukraine. And he's a, we'll just say he's a colorful character and leave it at that. But I've reached out to him and I said like, you know, how are you coping? How you're doing? And he was like, Steve, it is great. It is wonderful. And it is great. And I thought to myself, has he been on the drink already? You know? Cause he seems very happy. And I said to him, I said, you know, so I'm glad you're happy, but why are you happy? And he said it, and I think it was 85. We'll use 85 as an example, but it was 80 something he showed in 85. I bought a factory, a manufacturing, a production facility. He said, and there's, there was something like about 200 machines in there. You said factory runs 24 hours a day. Every time a machine breaks, we have to repair it to 1985 standards, because if we made it faster, if we did anything to improve it, it would run out of sync to the other two onto machines in there. So we weren't able, so we have been up, we have been managing and repairing 1985 equipment up until now. He said I was able, because we got shut down just like the rest of the planet, update every single machine. Not only can I produce faster, I guess you can reduce it with better technology, more accurate, more data. I can do way more. And I saved money on the efficiency of it as well. He was over the moon because he and a win in today. Me, I found wins in today. I've always said the richest guy on the rainy, is the guy selling the umbrellas.And now is the time for us to look inwards and go, well, okay, what can I clean up? Because when the green flag goes down and it will, we know where not on this forever, we don't know what it's going to end, but we sure as shit is gonna, it's gonna land. You ask anyone, you think we'll be at COVID someone's going to go.Yes, whatever vaccine will build up shirt, herd, immunity, whatever, but he's going to go away. When that green flag goes down, that is not the time you want to be getting out of checking the oil in the car, getting the car ready. You want to have your foot and hit that first corner first. . And you can only do that by preparation now. And again, I'm going to piss people off. I would like to see COVID last one month, every single year of my life, where every year, just one month the lights go off, we'll get back to our family. We'll get back to the focus and we get to restrategize and read the type the route that we want. Wouldn't that be beautiful. Every year, a month of reflection.George: I can say, honestly, that COVID, who was probably the biggest gift, cause COVID caused a little pain for me today to stop me from going out of business five years from now. Because there were holes I never would have seen. There were things that were tracking that I never would have thought. And quite frankly, I was like, I spent how much money a month on things I didn't use. Are you kidding me right now? Like that could have gone into my children's future real estate business, like whatever the case was. And so, you know, the, the one thing I reminded myself of Steve and my wife's amazing at this stuff. Cause she just, you know, she's a fiery redhead too. It's right in the face every time. And she's like, don't pretend that you don't love this. Look at your life. You love getting hurt. Coming down and proving how good you are. You're an entrepreneur, you love ambiguity. What are you complaining that the world gave you what you asked for? And I'm like, Oh shit. Oh, you're always right. And, and, and it's, it's riddled with opportunity and, and the way I wrote a post about this this morning, I'm like, if you focus on losses, you see losses. If you focus on mistakes, you see mistakes. If you take a step back, you can find opportunity everywhere and it hurts like, but it plugs the bleeding.It gives you an idea of what's there and quite frankly, everybody's comfort zone was like, I'm running a profitable business. It's all working. I'm like you're hemorrhaging. Wouldn't believe like the fact that you can't take a day off for a week off and it hurt me too. I mean, I. I lost about seven figures of deals. In 90 days, I lost the company. I've had to redo everything and it hurt. Like I was down. I was like, yeah, what am I going to do? And I was like, but I have two options, right? Like I either sit here and mope about it and it all comes true or I get up and do something about it and at least give myself the fighting chance.And so, you know, I think it's really awesome. And it's funny. I remembered you were talking about momentum and I'll remind Steve of this. And my 15 year old daughter came to the go-kart track with us and smoked us all. We're all Steve's professional racer, Mike dealer, professional race car driver. I'm here all the time. And my 15 year old daughter just smoke checks and soccer. So she's the only one without an ego there. And she's like, I'm just going to make it around the track as efficiently as possible. And so I love it. So when we think about a lot of this and everything that you said I completely agree with. And it's something that I've had to do as well. And we did the annual thing. We paid things off, but then what I also realized too, is I had this massive opportunity to go deep with people in my life, my business, my customers, my team, that I didn't have the space or time for before.And the one mistake that I've seen most people happen with businesses and entrepreneurship is things got tight and they're like, Oh, I'm here to care about you. But the moment things loosened up again, they went back to business as usual and they tried to go lateral rather than deep. And I think really what's happening is that the people that take the time now, Steve, to go deep in the relationships to actually connect and care, not like, Oh, I'm giving you lip service. You're going to win relationships for life. That would have never had the loyalty you see that they could have under times of stress. People make decisions and emotional times human agency got taken away. At the state of the world. And what people are going to remember is how, who was here, how did they make me feel? How did they respect me? See me, hear me. And so I love you launched the Facebook. I loved by the way, this, the happy hours. Cause I love all your jokes, but I have a lot of people here where you said, and I love this, like you have to go introspective, but once you get there, I think there's a massive opportunity to go deep with your team, with your customers, with your relationships that you couldn't do before.So what are some of the ways that you've utilized that, or you've seen that other people have been successful or things that they can do to deepen that level of relationship in any of those areas?Steve Sims: So attention is the first one. And acknowledge, you know, it's very easy for us to sit here. Me and you have very similar, so it's very easy for us to be sitting here going blah, blah, blah. There are days, mornings to dark of night. There are those moments every now and then when we go, God, I wish this was over. Oh my God, the monotony starting to get to me. Oh my God. Something's going, Oh my God, is this ever going to come right? There are those we all get into maybe now and then, and then we get out again.Acknowledged the fact that your clients are going through the same as you. So you can say that that company, you would not even know in someone you can go without, this is probably stopped. They're probably staring at my bank account a little bit more than they should. All of those kinds of things now is the time you pay more attention because one we're lasting and yearning and desire in that connectivity. And too, everyone's scared. That's not a good mixture for a cocktail. So if everyone's journey connection, give them a connection, you know, and as you say, if you're giving someone a connection, now you like, we open up this Facebook group, we're all, not just under 1700 people that have jumped in there. Why? Because they want hair products from me. No, because they want to buy my shit. No, because we don't advertise it in there. We don't promote it. The bottom line of it is there is a for like minded widows. And as we call them, create if there's disruptors to connect and the things that I've been doing, I sent out a couple of mugs.You go in, you are a fucking volume of sunshine is set on it. I sent people funny notepads that says great ideas while I've been drunk. You know, just all these stupid I sent out stupid little stuff in his little thing. The mugs were $15. I booked 20 mugs with, I am Avaya, fucking sunshine on it. I bought 20 $15 mugs for about $4.99 each.And because the order was over 10, no postage and they've got some, another funny thing is people love it because no one's sending stuff you may have seen. I have a Facebook, my Christmas cards. Have you seen that? Where people have been getting my Christmas cards? Yeah, anyone within my groups, I sent a Christmas card and I said, who sends a Christmas card in July? I do. Why? Because it got you engagement is different. Now you try something different.So I'm urging people to try something different. Now is a phenomenal time for you to get people's attention is everyone's quiet. Everyone's petrified. Everyone's in a coma. If you're out there going, Hey, this is a great book from my buddy. Here's a copy or his like I'm sending, you know, I'm Benjamin Hardy's book. Your personality is a permanent. I'm just getting it all packaged up now to send out about 230 and 50 books. Why? Because that was a great song to me to book, you know, now's a perfect time to you for you to reestablish what you look at as your brand and personality.The smallest amount of focus today. Will lead to the most exponentials as we come out, because why, when you're down, you're the member, who's got your back. All of those people don't have in the bar cheering you on when you've just bought your fourth Mercedes, and you've got more money than God in the bank account. You're not going to remember those name, but when you asss on the line and you're slightly concerned, confused, disrupted, disjointed, distracted. When someone puts their hand down and go, Hey, Let's chat. Let's swap stupid jokes on a Friday night, and we both get drunk together via zoom. Let's have a little phone call and let's both look at your business and see what I can identify. And if you do that, those people are going to remember you not next month when we're at a, COVID not next year, but in 10 years, that'd be telling them fricking kids about ya.George: And the one thing that, and you and I are super similar about this, I, I agree with everything and actually. one of the ways when I get into those moments. Like I've had those moments, like I woke up at 3:00 AM this morning and I was like, all right, I'm not supposed to be up for my workout for two hours.What's going on. I'm like anxiety, banquet. Like I woke up and started responding to comments on social media. I'm like, go help you here. . So one of the things that I do is like, when I get in that state, I don't try to stay there longer acknowledge what's there. And then I go give it away. Give connection, give value, give everything. How do you manage that? Because we have lots of pressure. You run a massive company. I mean, like you started a fucking credit card a couple of years ago. Like you, you're playing a big game. You have employees, you have people, you have funds, you have this, the house, the kid, the cutest bulldog, right things later, along those lines. And we do get hit with that stuff. Steve, there's tons of us all the time that get hit with those moments of anxiety. And sometimes it feels crippling. How do you navigate that? Like what do you do when that comes up to get out of it or to not sit in it wallow and go binge Netflix for, you know, 24 hours.Steve Sims: So here's the funny answer that you may not, you may not expect. But I let it come. You see, I used to be a fighter. Yeah. I used to fight Wishu Kwan, which was Chinese kickboxing. And then I raced motorcross and now I race the Bucatti in race tracks and on all of those things, there was a commonality.The commonality is you broke when you held onto tight. Now we've, someone's getting through your guard and he's going to punch you in the head. If you brace yourself for it, it's going to increase the impact on your nose. If you roll with the punch, still going to hurt, still going to smart may, still crack your nose. But it's not going to hurt as much. When you own the motor cross bikes, especially motorcross taught me a lot. You know, you get on the bike and you're holding on for dear life when you're so good, you bust up your shoulders and those locks bounce you off the bike. But you know, as soon as you let it go, all of a sudden you became fluid and now you can't hold onto the water. It's going to find a way of getting through. So whenever that shit happens, the first thing you need to realize is realize. The first thieng you've got to do is, I got this wave on me. I've got this anxiety. I will actually turn around to my wife and I'll go, I'm having a moment. Don't mean me wrong. Well, I'm just having a moment, I may try and get it out of myself by going for a bike ride or maybe jabbing the box in bag out doing something. Oh my go for a long walk. Oh, Maybe just sit down on my ass, shove a movie on and just leave, let it go. And know that I'm letting it go because I'm just about to get me back when you're holding on too tight, you find you actually accentuate that timeframe and that's when it does most damage, you know, so realize it, respect it, acknowledge it. See pin to it. Let it go. Alright. I add a moment now let's get back in.George: And the wisest Shaman I've ever met in my life looked at me dead in the eye and said, if it's coming up, it's coming out. And I was like, okay. And so now when I don't recognize, I have my moment, my wife looks at me like, Hey, go handle your shit. I'll see you in an hour. I'm like, thanks baby. I'm out. I just listened to it and I get out. And it's important to have those people around you, but I think it's so quality. So Steve, when we think about the current state of the world, whether it's now, whether it's six months from now, I feel like you, and I recognize a ton of holes that exist and just day to day practice things that we can do. So for everybody listening, what are some things that people can do to fortify their relationships, to build stronger ones, to be that neural pathway top of mind, like talk about in 10 years, tell my kids about like, what is it that you carry forward? Like you do amazing things. You pay attention. You know what you're doing, you follow up with people, you make it about them, which is absolutely amazing. But what are some things that everybody listening can do? Like right now, if they're like, Oh shit. And like, now I have an opportunity. I see what I can do. I see where I can go. What are some of the things that you carry forth, that you teach people, you teach your team to put into practice in their relationships or business.Steve Sims: So I would love to help you and say, well, you need to be buying this program or you need to be buying this tablet, or you need to begin this flow on or this CRM, but it's nothing that you have to pay for. You have to pay attention. I have to literally reach out and I've been doing it on all of my stuff, both on Facebook, LinkedIn, my client bank. And the way that I do it is I'm not a technical guy. We've got CRMs because it helps my team and it helps my accountant in the house, my lawyer. But what I did was yet a month is I said, print off. Who's active. Who's been with me for over 10 months. Who's fresh, you know, and, and I've got to, and anyone that's fresh, this joined any one of my programs, I've reached out to them and I've gone. Hey, George, I saw the purchase. My product seems to still be on this day. Why did you do that? And what are you hoping to get out of it? And I've started a conversation.The amount of people that are absolutely stunned. Because they send you cause while you usually get, is, is this one of Steve's team? Is this an autoresponder? And I'll be on my back and I go, fuck, no, this is the ugly man himself. And I'm not just sending, I'd be like, You texted me all. You've emailed me and I'm like, yeah, now let's get back to the question. Why did you waste your money on my product? Because if it's not a waste, what are you open again?And I started confronting them and it's helped on so many ways. And people are looking at their business. It's amazing today. Like my travel business is fucked at the moment. I actually was a Dodo in a Coburn drunk on a Friday night. So that's as simple as that. So you've just got to go.Alright, pocket. Don't put any effort into it. There's no need, I can't book anything. I can't do anything. Leave it alone. So focus on all the stuff you can do. And what we can do is we can connect with people and I've got clients in the travel industry, and then I don't want to be arrogant, but looking up to me is one of the leaders of the private concierge world and not going, how are you surviving? And I go, I'm not. But how am I growing? That's a different question and I'm reaching out to my clients going, Hey, we've all got problems, but what are you dreaming of doing when we came out of this? You know, that was a brilliant time for you to kind of step back and go, well, hang on a minute. Is the new AMG Mercedes really where my focus is? Or is it going out to Utah with my family? You know, do I really want the new Rolex Daytona? Oh, do I want to make sure my daughter really has the best chance of college, even though she's only two years old now, you know, it's now a great time. Noww I've noticed from the trial well industry, every the cycles as erratic and as random as we think we're human beings, we fucking ain't.We have these cycles. Every recession, every political upheaval, every terrible was the time that we've ever happened, straight off to that. Conscientious spending has come in and people have started focusing on threes and not trinkets are often not 11, no one was born rich watches. They would go in away with the family. They were building granny flats on that, on their house. I'm moving the inlaws into that. I'm still, they were closer to the family and that parents could see that kids all the time. You know, we will becoming whole again. And then we diverse out and we get back into the shiny stuff. And then we get political upheaval and we come back again. As soon as we've got out of COVID, no one gives a rat's ass about investing all their money in a GT3. They're going to want to go down to the public. Couple of months down the line. Then I look into that because we forget the pain that we're in.So today is when you got to put your hand out and go, Hey, let's talk. You know, we've got this thing called zoom. We got this thing called Skype. We've got this thing called face time. We got this thing called a fucking phone. You know, let's just spend 20 any minutes and let's just see if either of us are, I've seen opportunities that the other person can't see and just show you care, you will be stunned to what it will do to your relationships and more important. It would acknowledge them and it will cement them. And you don't remember your best mate kicking around sponging off of you at a bar. You remember that time when he had your back in a bar fight or when he was there to fix your flat or what he would came over to help you to a tough time when you were crying, because you'd split, I'll be a girlfriend and it's almost like that's when you submit them relationships.Never the high times I've got no friends that I've remembered from flying around on private jets. I remember my friends where my ass was on the line when they came over and knocked on the door and said, Steve, I've got no money to help you out of the shit you're in, but I can't afford you a couple of beers.And then you'd go down to the pub. I remember a perfect time. What I was in England once and I was up against Dan. I was serious the up against some big money crunch. Yeah. And I had some really powerful people, the contact to me and they went, we're going to help you out. I don't remember saying to them. Great. I need this amount of money. And they went, no, we're not giving you a dollar. We are going to strategize how you can get out of this. And when you can get, once you've learned how to get out of that a million times. But druing that same time, I told you earlier about my friends that go to really bad balls. A friend of mine picked me up in the car, took me down and he said, I'm just going to buy you two beers. That's all I can afford. But it found up some other boys and each one of them bought me a couple of beers. And not one person in that could afford a round for everyone. So they bought themselves a beer and me and then themselves am me. And that's the kind of people we have. And that's the moment you remember.George: It's so true when you think about it. Like the world got pushed down and everybody's like me. And I was like no, turn that around too growth and support. You'll get yours, but this is the thing it's like, it's, it's not about like how good your product is. Like Jonah Berger said, it's actually wrote it down earlier. The world we live in is like, what could I do to try to convince somebody, right? That was the world of marketing. And now. It's why haven't they changed already. What's stopping them. And normally it's safety. It's a relationship. It's a conversation. Somebody actually giving a shit to lean in and get it. And for those of you that are listening to this, if you don't get this, like, this is how business has always been built. Except people got fast passes and excuses to get out because people were buying the dream or the idea. And now you're left with humans. You're left with real humans and by the way, relationships don't build themselves. And Steve. I loved, you know, that whole, that gets me fucker. I got the best message on Facebook. The other day I responded personally. They're like, this doesn't sound like George, what bot wrote this. And I wrote, I opened my phone, a video.I'm like, Oh yeah. I'm like, what would you like me to say, let me read it to you. And they're like, Oh shit, I'm so sorry. I'm and it's my favorite thing in the absolute world. So Steve, just in selflish pug cause I forgot to do this earlier. Where do you want everybody to find you? I mean, I recommend you all the time. Your Facebook group, your book, blue fishing, Steve sends, I mean, you are the guy that's noticeable. I have stickers of your face on some of my stuff, right? Like where does everybody find you?Steve Sims: You see that cup that I gave the other day. it's on my it's on an entrepreneur's advantage on facebook. It's on Instagram and SteveDSims it's everywhere, but. This guy actually wanted something to motivate himself in the morning. And he got a coupon code from Vista print. So what he did was he went on a Vista print and he ordered a mug and a pad with my screaming face on it. And he said, nothing scares him into action needs boarding. Other than he may have a coffee with this bug is fricking hilarious. But you can go to an entrepreneur's advantage with me, Steve Sims that's the, the Facebook group, you know, put your details in there and you'll be let in. SteveDSims is my personal page and my, I'm pretty easy to find any toilet walls. Probably got something written about me, so I'm easy.George: Oh my God. I love it. So if you had to leave everybody with one thing, like to remember to take forward, close it out, what would you leave him with?Steve Sims: My dad was not the sharpest tool in the shelve by far. And I remember one day we were walking through London and he, he was a chain smoker, so he would have one cigarette smoking and another one in his hand, ready to change. There was never a time when he didn't have his hand with one and the other one in his mouth. We're walking down the street and he'd just gone off one cigarette and he was just lighting up the other one before we'd managed to get a renewal in his hand. He put his hand on my shoulder, never looked me in the eye. We carried on slide in and he said, son,No one ever drowned by falling in the water. They drown by staying there with that. He put his hand in his pocket, he got his next cigarette and cowered and walking. I was about 14, 15 years old at the time. And I remember stopping going, what the fuck was that? You know? And I just thought to myself hitting, just consumed like a fortune cookie or something. I had no idea, but sometimes in my life. When it didn't quite go to plan, we get loads of those as entrepreneurs, we get them regular. We get more downs than we get ups. And it's always made me realize , no one's ever drowned by being in here. There drowned by staying there.George: Such a good. I got nothing to say. I'm going to mic drop that one. So Steve always an honor and a pleasure. We are due for a drink in person soon. We'll get some rides through the Kenyans,for everybody listening to this, I highly recommend Steve is somebody. I consider a mentor, whether he knows it or not, what I consume, what I learn, I pay attention. And I'm humble enough to say that I learned from the greats and play the game with them. So go check out Steve follow wherever you follow him. Steve, thank you for being here and everybody we'll see you in the next episode.

Andy and Dave take a look at the reintroduction of the “AI in Government Act,” a bill that intents to get more AI technical experts into the US Government. San Francisco bans facial recognition software (but leaves the door open in the future), while Moscow announces plans to weave AI facial recognition into its urban surveillance net. Facebook opens up its data to academic researchers for analysis. DARPA announces the Air Combat Evolution (ACE) program, to automate air-to-air combat; DARPA also announces Teaching AI to Leverage Overlooked Residuals (TAILOR), to make soldiers fitter, happier, and more productive. And IARPA announces Trojans in AI (TrojAI), an effort to inspect AI for malicious code. In research, Andy and Dave discuss research from Frankle at MIT that proposes a “Lottery Ticket” hypothesis, which suggests only certain “winning combinations” are necessary for training a neural networks, and that researchers have been training neural networks that are much larger than they need to be to increase the chances of includes one of these winning combinations. Leon Bottou at Facebook AI proposes a method for using AI to identify causal relationships in data (and which goes against common modern practice of combining data sets into one giant dataset). And research from Cambridge, George IT, and the University of Pennsylvania demonstrates that Magic: the Gathering is officially the world’s most complicated game (and is Turing complete). In reports of the week, the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute releases the Impact of AI on Strategic Stability and Nuclear Risk. IKV and Pax Christi release The State of AI. Analytics Vedhya has compiled a list of 25 open datasets for deep learning. Benedek Rozemberczki has curated a list of decision tree research papers. The IEEE Spectrum releases a report on Accelerating Autonomous Vehicle Technology. The May 2019 issue of The Scientist contains 15 articles on how Biology is tackling AI. David Kriesel provides A Brief Introduction to Neural Networks. COL Jasper Jeffers wins the 2019 Sci-Fi Writing Contest with AN41. The ICLR 2019 provides video on four talks, including Frankle’s Lottery Ticket hypothesis, and Bottou’s Casual Invariance. Melanie Mitchell gives a Ted Talk on the Collapse of AI and the possibility of an AI winter. And the National Academies-Royal Society Public Symposium will be meeting in DC on 24 May for an International Dialogue on AI.

The 31st release on PJCE Records is “Escape Route,” by Other Barry, a bionic power trio led by George Colligan on keyboards, with Micah Hummel on drums and Enzo Irace on guitar. Transcript: [Doug] PJCE Records artists Other Barry, a trio led by George Colligan, play at 2:50 pm, Saturday August 18th at the 2018 Montavilla Jazz Festival in Northeast Portland. Tickets available at montavillajazzfest.com, and you buy or stream the album at pjce.bandcamp.com. Here’s the episode. Welcome to Beyond Category, I’m Douglas Detrick. The 31st release on PJCE Records is “Escape Route,” by Other Barry, a bionic power trio led by George Colligan on keyboards, with Micah Hummel on drums and Enzo Irace on guitar. The music is adrenaline-drenched, electronica-infused, jazz music that doesn’t mind being a bit complicated, even nerdy in its complexity. Picture Superman in beast mode, alternating between a dapper Clark Kent sipping a latte while he scrolls through his Instagram feed, and maybe that gives you an idea. [Music: Thing 3] The energy of the album starts at ten, and goes to eleven more than a few times, but not without entering some ethereal, fragile spaces. [Music: Pad] [George Colligan] I’m George Colligan and I played keyboards on the record. [Micah Hummel] I’m Micah Hummel and I played drums. [Doug] George Colligan, the veteran of this trio by at least a few decades, picked two of his students who share an interest in this aesthetic approach, and who were ready for a challenge. There’s a long tradition of a more experienced bandleader hiring young players. The iconic drummer Art Blakey came to mind for George. [George] Art Blakey always wanted quality musicians, but at a certain point he went for young musicians, just like Betty Carter would go for young musicians. There’s different reasons for that...you can pay them less. But also to have the mentor/mentee relationship. [Doug] That kind of relationship was important to Micah Hummel. [Micah] George is basically why I moved here. Musically he’s just very inspiring, and open minded, willing to let me contribute to the conversation on the band stand. [Doug] There are different reasons for an established older musician to work with younger players. It could include real opportunities for the youngsters to give input, or it could just be about having someone to obey commands. Allowing for an equal exchange of ideas was critical to the formation of this band and this album. [Music Thing 5] [George] I want it to be open to interpretation. I don’t like to overthink it or overexplain it. And this ties into the teaching part of it. I would say that I’m teaching by giving an opportunity to these young musicians to find the interpretation by themselves, you know what I mean, rather than by saying this is exactly what you should do. [George] Here’s the thing generally about this project, is that there is a set component, but I always like to find that balance between written and spontaneity. Even though some of it is more quote unquote groove based, there’s still that spirit of interaction. [Micah] One of my favorite drummers is Lewis Cole from Knower, and obviously Mark Guiliana and Nate Wood. What I love about them is that they can emulate machines in such a natural way. And I love that, but it can also be very restricting. I feel like this project and this group allows me to do the best of both worlds. Almost exactly like George was saying about pre-planning and spontaneity. I can have an idea of what I want to do, but there’s a lot of flexibility and I don’t have to be tied down. [Doug] The last tune on the album, Revenge, is a rhythmic tour de force. Micah thought it showed the precision they achieved as a group. He thought... [Micah] ...it would fall apart if everybody wasn’t on the same page and if there wasn’t that precise element about it. [Doug] The last tune on the album, Revenge, is a rhythmic tour de force. Micah thought it showed the precision they achieved as a group. He thought... [Micah] ...it would fall apart if everybody wasn’t on the same page and if there wasn’t that precise element about it. [Doug] Finding musicians who can perform well in that environment can be a challenge no matter how experienced they are. George Colligan had more to say about Micah Hummel and Enzo Irace. Both young players have great technique, but there’s more to it than that. [George] It’s about how to play with some maturity, how to develop a sense of taste, how to not play sometimes, when to leave stuff out. And I think Enzo has a lot of that instinctually. When I watch him play I get the same feeling as I do from older guys, they have a thoughtfulness about what they play, it’s not just a million notes. [Music: Intro to Thing 5] [George] I think Micah really brought this balance that we were talking about before. A project like this won’t work if it’s all about precision, and it also won’t work it it’s totally organic, so there has to be that balance. Micah has his own grooves. I’m hearing other drummers in town imitate them, so that’s a good sign for Micah, that he’s already become a local icon for certain types of grooves. There was a young guy at PSU and I was like ‘that’s some Micah Hummel stuff you’re playing.’ [Doug] The mentorship between George and Micah has been fruitful, but it almost didn’t happen. [George] When somebody really good auditions, you remember that. He had a really great audition and we were like ‘we need to get this guy here.’ It was a finance issue and he didn’t end up coming. Then a few years went by and ran into this trumpet player named Noah Simpson, at the Reno Jazz Festival, and Noah was like “I’m from Arizona,” and I said “there was this drummer who auditioned for us a few years ago. What was his name?” and Noah said “Micah Hummel?” and I said “yeah, what happened to him?” And he said “he’s just chillin’, he didn’t end up going to college.” And I was like “get him on the phone.” [Doug] The record comes out July 20th, 2018. Buy or stream the music at pjce.bandcamp.com. And you can hear this superhuman band play live at the Montavilla Jazz Festival, 2:50 pm, Saturday August 18th. Tickets are available at Montavillajazzfest.com where you can by a full-festival GA pass. You can buy a reserved seat for each set, which comes with festival pass. This festival is a gem of the Portland arts scene, and it’s the best opportunity for a Portland jazz fan to hear what Portland artists do when they have complete artistic freedom. It’s a special experience, and I want you all to be there. The Portland Jazz Composers Ensemble performs at 5:30. We’ll be playing Watershed Suite, a new multi-movement piece by the acclaimed composer James Miley. Finally, if you love what we do at PJCE and you want to get even closer, become a PJCE Sustainer. You’ll get a discount code for reserved seats at Montavilla Jazz Festival for our set, free tickets and discounts for other PJCE concerts, and exclusive invitations to hang with PJCE artists and more. Become a Sustainer at pjce.org.

[paypal-donation] Did you know that an estimated 70% of sports memorabilia is fake?  We're continuing our conversation with George Throckmorton, and he tells that the majority of those “Authentic” jerseys, balls, and bats are forged.  How does he know? https://youtu.be/ourR2H9ESTw George:  Over the years, I've done a lot of work on sports memorabilia. I had a Babe Ruth jersey that was selling for $750,000. GT: Oh my goodness. George: It had been authenticated. But it wasn't [genuine.]  Because the ink that was used to sign it wasn't made until--Babe Ruth died in 1948. And the ink wasn't made until 1972, so if it had been genuine, he would've had to been resurrected and signed his name. {chuckles} Of course, we spend the bulk of our time discussing the Hofmann forgeries.  How did Mark age them?  George describes aging techniques that Mark Hofmann used to make his forgeries appear older than they were.  But there was something wrong when George examined signatures. George:  And as I put an ultraviolet light, there was some part that would reflect back and other parts that would not. And that really caused me some question. Why? If this document has been saved for over 100 years, why would you have some part that glowed and some part that did not, different inks, and so forth? And as I looked at it closer, I noticed the thing that made the document valuable was not the date itself, but the fact that it says, "obliged Joseph Smith." And where it said, "obliged Joseph Smith" was where I saw different ink and I saw this white effect going around and I asked him that night, I asked him, I says, "Can you tell us where this came from?" Because before we started noticing some of these documents that have blue haze on the documents under ultraviolet light. Others did not. George: And so we separated them into two piles. And as I looked at those under the microscope, I noticed there was a characteristic of the ink would crack on some of them, not others. And then I noticed the ones with that blue haze, we're also the ones that had that had the blue there, the cracked ink. And so, I told Bill. "Bill," I says, "I think we got something here." And I handed him a stack of documents and I says, "You give them to me, mix them up, give them to me and I'll tell you which one came through the hands of Hofmann." And he gave it to me and I looked under the microscope and he says, "this one did." He gave me another one. "This one did not," and so forth until we were through. And all of them that had the cracked ink had Hofmann's signature. Don't forget to check out how George became a document examiner, and how Mark's toy chemistry set fooled the FBI.  Please support Gospel Tangents by any of these methods Become a paid subscriber.  I will send you this and future transcripts for just $10/month!  Click the link at the top at www.GospelTangents.com, or Make a one-time donation! [paypal-donation] Purchase a transcript in our online Store Become a patron and listen to the entire episode on our Patreon Page for just $5/month! Like our Facebook page Subscribe on YouTube or Apple Podcasts! Share this episode on Facebook with your friends! Check out our conversation... An estimated 70% of sports memorabilia is forged. George Throckmorton describes how he found a $750,000 Babe Ruth jersey was forged.

[paypal-donation] George Throckmorton is one of the most amazing police officers in the world.  Last year I talked to him about his role in the Mark Hofmann forgeries and bombings.  In this first episode, we'll get acquainted with him, and learn how he became a forgery expert.  Of course, we will talk about the Mark Hofmann forgeries and murders, but we will also briefly discuss one of his first forgery cases in Ogden, Utah.  The Hi-Fi Shop murders are well-known in Utah because a few robbers tortured and killed customers while robbing an Ogden store called the Hi-Fi Shop. It turns out that forgery was involved in that case! https://youtu.be/nPMJImQWyM8 GT:  I don't know how many of my listeners are familiar with a Hi-Fi Murders as they were known, but there were some criminals that tortured some people and killed them. It was pretty terrible. George:  Ironically that case, a significant part of that was due to handwriting. GT:  Really? Oh, I didn't know that. George: Again, we could go into that and I don't want to take a lot of time because that's not the emphasis. GT:  I'll have to come back. We'll have to talk about that. George: It's worth talking about that.  The significance was there was a homicide up there before the Hi-Fi Shop Murders, there was a homicide involving in airman from Hill Air Force Base and there was an auto theft ring going on out of Hill Air Force Base and they would steal cars and get an airman that was being released and asked him if he wanted to earn some extra money and he would drive the car back to the Chicago/Detroit area so he would get paid. And he was actually transporting stolen cars. But they didn't know it. ... George: In order for the cars to go back east, they had to have two sets of keys and Pierre can only find one set of keys. So, he went out to the base and got a duplicate set of keys made. He had to sign for that. I actually was able to attach his signature to request for the extra set of keys on that investigation when the Hi-Fi Shop Murders happened. So, we had been investigating that already and he was a suspect in that murder. We will talk more about how George became a document examiner.  Check out our conversation….. George Throckmorton figured out how Mark Hofmann was forging documents. Don't forget to check out our previous conversations about the Mark Hofmann case! 079: Hofmann's Teenage Forgeries (Shannon Flynn) 036: Bombs in Salt Lake: Introduction to Mark Hofmann (interview with Curt Bench) [paypal-donation]

In our next episode, we'll continue along the Frankincense Trail and get to the Land Bountiful.  George Potter has some interesting insights into why Laman and Lemuel might have rebelled, and we will discuss Nephi's broken bow.  George has some interesting insights. https://youtu.be/wlfEzPin3s0 George:  There is a guy named Nigel Groom who is the expert on the Frankincense Trail.  He is a British scholar.  He has written two books on the Frankincense Trail.[1]  He has also written a book called A Dictionary of Arabic Topography and Place Names.[2]  This is the only dictionary that exists like this.  You can go right there to mujahareen and see it translates to the “most fertile pieces.”  It's his own writing:  “most fertile parts.”  Pieces and parts are synonyms.  Again, a Book of Mormon place name, right along the Frankincense Trail.  There are villages that were through the most fertile part of the trail.  So Nephi describes they went through the most fertile parts, then they went through the more fertile parts.  Finally they travelled, he said for a space of many days, and then they had to stop and look for food.  In other words, it ain't fertile at all.  They had to go hunting in the mountains. GT:  This is where Nephi broke his bow, right? George:  It's where Nephi broke his bow.  It just so happens that the area there where bow-wood grows in Arabia is a very small area, about 150 miles long.  Atum is the name of the wood, and again it would have been right along the trail where Nephi would have been.  So, we document all of this in our films and our books.[3]  This is amazing, and it's up in the mountains.  Up in the mountains is where all of the game is.  They are not down in the desert, they are up in the mountains.  So Nephi would have made his bow out of atum would, which is a type of olive.  He would have then gone up to the mountains to get his game.  So, it is all in context. From there they travel and they get to a very desperate part of the trail.  This is where there is open rebellion.  Laman and Lemuel are contemplating killing Nephi and Lehi.  They want to go back. Ishmael dies.  They call the place Nahom. We'll also talk about the Land Bountiful, a land flowing with honey.  Why is that significant? Check out our conversation!  Don't forget to check out our previous discussion about the Frankincense trail! Fruit and honey were welcome sights after going through a desert wilderness   [1] Nigel Groom has written Frankincense and Myrrh: A Study of the Arabian Incense Trade, see https://amzn.to/2HLl9tt, and Sheba Revealed: A Posting to Bayhan in the Yemen, see https://amzn.to/2EYhLs6 . [2] The entire name is A Dictionary of Arabic Topography and Place Names: A Transliterated Arabic-English Dictionary With an Arabic Glossary of Topographical Words and Place Names.  See https://amzn.to/2HMw6us [3] See http://www.nephiproject.com/Our_films.htm [paypal-donation]

The Patriot Citizens for Religious Freedom Act Up is down, left is right, right is wrong, and the egg is cracked The Patriot Citizens for Religious Freedom Act Down is up, right is left, wrong is right, and your brain is hacked When they want to make a law to restrict your liberty They'll name it just the opposite, something more warm and fuzzy They think your liberty needs to be restrained So that you can be truly free Doublethink starts working on your brain let's call that Freedomfuksity When they want to make a law to invade your privacy They'll name it quite the opposite, something oh so yummy They think your secrets needs to be surveiled to keep your privacy unveiled? Doublethink is alive and well let's call that Patriocity Dear Mr. Orwell, may we call you George? It took a little longer, but it's 1984! When they want to make a law to impose their own belief They'll call it something different, just like any common thief Do you vote for wolves disguised in sheeps clothing Cause you think they eat the same thing you're loathing? that's Doublethink, you see they call it Religiosity When they want to pretend that they speak for you and me they will do that oh so surreptitiously Do you think they have your happiness in mind do you really think your interests are aligned? that's when Doublethink really shines they call that Bourgeoisocity Dear Mr. Orwell, may we call you George? It took a little longer, but it's 1984! The Patriot Citizens for Religious Freedom Act Up is down, left is right, right is wrong, and the egg cracked The Patriot Citizens for Religious Freedom Act Down is up, right is left, wrong is right, and your brain is hacked Spoken word by John Lopker, Music by Kevin MacLeod - Water Lillies Popular USA Majority

The Patriot Citizens for Religious Freedom Act Up is down, left is right, right is wrong, and the egg is cracked The Patriot Citizens for Religious Freedom Act Down is up, right is left, wrong is right, and your brain is hacked When they want to make a law to restrict your liberty They'll name it just the opposite, something more warm and fuzzy They think your liberty needs to be restrained So that you can be truly free Doublethink starts working on your brain let's call that Freedomfuksity When they want to make a law to invade your privacy They'll name it quite the opposite, something oh so yummy They think your secrets needs to be surveiled to keep your privacy unveiled? Doublethink is alive and well let's call that Patriocity Dear Mr. Orwell, may we call you George? It took a little longer, but it's 1984! When they want to make a law to impose their own belief They'll call it something different, just like any common thief Do you vote for wolves disguised in sheeps clothing Cause you think they eat the same thing you're loathing? that's Doublethink, you see they call it Religiosity When they want to pretend that they speak for you and me they will do that oh so surreptitiously Do you think they have your happiness in mind do you really think your interests are aligned? that's when Doublethink really shines they call that Bourgeoisocity Dear Mr. Orwell, may we call you George? It took a little longer, but it's 1984! The Patriot Citizens for Religious Freedom Act Up is down, left is right, right is wrong, and the egg cracked The Patriot Citizens for Religious Freedom Act Down is up, right is left, wrong is right, and your brain is hacked Patriot 1984 Protest Song Copyright 2015 John Lopker. All Rights Reserved. Popular USA Majority. PopUSA