Podcasts about glean

Reach out to Cody and Buhler to tell them what's up!Can I get a little respect around here?That is what college football programs like Clemson and South Carolina might be feeling now after seeing where ESPN's Bill Connelly had them ranked in his latest SP+ rankings.While they may hail from The Palmetto State, leave it up to two guys from neighboring states who root for rival college football teams of theirs in Georgia's John Buhler (Lead Writer, FanSided.com) and North Carolina's Cody Williams (Content Director, FanSided.com) to sort this all out.Monday's episode of False Start was mostly about the SP+ rankings, new legislation coming out about the College Football Playoff, and a little bit about remembering some dudes because it was Memorial Day and all.When you fall seven times, get up eight times, because this is False Start!

This week, we are revisiting a conversation between Lightspeed partner Michael Mignano and Arvind Jain, the founder and CEO of Glean about the evolution of AI-assisted enterprise search.Arvind shares what insights helped to start Glean's journey in 2019, how the company leveraged transformer-based models early on, and how Glean developed the market for this product. They also talk about competition, the technical aspects of integrating Glean across SaaS platforms, and the monumental impact of ChatGPT on the industry. Episode Chapters(00:00) Introduction (01:15) Why Arvind Created Glean to Solve Enterprise Search Problems(03:50) Technical Foundations: Building Glean with Transformers(09:04) Product Market Fit and Early Challenges(12:16) The Impact of ChatGPT and Market Evolution(13:42) Glean's Architecture and Model Integration(17:58) The Future of AI in Enterprises(27:52) Leadership, Competition, and Company Culture(35:48) Reflections and Lessons from Rubrik to Glean(41:15) Lightning Round and Closing RemarksStay in touch:www.lsvp.comX: https://twitter.com/lightspeedvpLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/lightspeed-venture-partners/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lightspeedventurepartners/Subscribe on your favorite podcast app: generativenow.coEmail: generativenow@lsvp.comThe content here does not constitute tax, legal, business or investment advice or an offer to provide such advice, should not be construed as advocating the purchase or sale of any security or investment or a recommendation of any company, and is not an offer, or solicitation of an offer, for the purchase or sale of any security or investment product. For more details please see lsvp.com/legal.

Vincent founder Slava Rubin and Sacra co-founder Jan-Erik Asplund did a deep dive into Glean, the multi-billion dollar AI startup helping to companies get the most out of their enterprise data. They looked at Glean's growth trajectory, the competitive landscape and a possible IPO timeline.

Arvind Jain joins Sarah and Elad on this episode of No Priors. Arvind is the founder and CEO of Glean, an AI-powered enterprise search platform. He previously co-founded Rubrik and spent over a decade as an engineering leader at Google. In this episode, Arvind shares how LLMs are transforming enterprise search, why most tools in the space have failed, and the opportunity to build apps powered by internal knowledge. He discusses how much customization is still needed on top of foundation models, what made building Glean uniquely challenging compared to Arvind's previous ventures, and what's next for the company. Sign up for new podcasts every week. Email feedback to show@no-priors.com Follow us on Twitter: @NoPriorsPod | @Saranormous | @EladGil | @jainarvind Show Notes: 0:00 Introduction 0:58 How LLMs are changing search 2:05 Building out Glean's platform 5:09 Why most search companies failed 8:41 Out of the box vs. bespoke models  10:26 Creating apps on top of internal knowledge 15:34 User behaviors & insights  19:11 Unique challenges of building Glean  21:51 Product-led growth vs. enterprise sales 25:00 Succeeding in traditionally bad markets  27:08 What Glean is excited to build next

Nabeel Qureshi is an entrepreneur, writer, researcher, and visiting scholar of AI policy at the Mercatus Center (alongside Tyler Cowen). Previously, he spent nearly eight years at Palantir, working as a forward-deployed engineer. His work at Palantir ranged from accelerating the Covid-19 response to applying AI to drug discovery to optimizing aircraft manufacturing at Airbus. Nabeel was also a founding employee and VP of business development at GoCardless, a leading European fintech unicorn.What you'll learn:• Why almost a third of all Palantir's PMs go on to start companies• How the “forward-deployed engineer” model works and why it creates exceptional product leaders• How Palantir transformed from a “sparkling Accenture” into a $200 billion data/software platform company with more than 80% margins• The unconventional hiring approach that screens for independent-minded, intellectually curious, and highly competitive people• Why the company intentionally avoids traditional titles and career ladders—and what they do instead• Why they built an ontology-first data platform that LLMs love• How Palantir's controversial “bat signal” recruiting strategy filtered for specific talent types• The moral case for working at a company like Palantir—Brought to you by:• WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs• Attio—The powerful, flexible CRM for fast-growing startups• OneSchema—Import CSV data 10x faster—Where to find Nabeel S. Qureshi:• X: https://x.com/nabeelqu• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nabeelqu/• Website: https://nabeelqu.co/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Nabeel S. Qureshi(05:10) Palantir's unique culture and hiring(13:29) What Palantir looks for in people(16:14) Why they don't have titles(19:11) Forward-deployed engineers at Palantir(25:23) Key principles of Palantir's success(30:00) Gotham and Foundry(36:58) The ontology concept(38:02) Life as a forward-deployed engineer(41:36) Balancing custom solutions and product vision(46:36) Advice on how to implement forward-deployed engineers(50:41) The current state of forward-deployed engineers at Palantir(53:15) The power of ingesting, cleaning and analyzing data(59:25) Hiring for mission-driven startups(01:05:30) What makes Palantir PMs different(01:10:00) The moral question of Palantir(01:16:03) Advice for new startups(01:21:12) AI corner(01:24:00) Contrarian corner(01:25:42) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• Reflections on Palantir: https://nabeelqu.co/reflections-on-palantir• Palantir: https://www.palantir.com/• Intercom: https://www.intercom.com/• Which companies produce the best product managers: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/which-companies-produce-the-best• Gotham: https://www.palantir.com/platforms/gotham/• Foundry: https://www.palantir.com/platforms/foundry/• Peter Thiel on X: https://x.com/peterthiel• Alex Karp: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Karp• Stephen Cohen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Cohen_(entrepreneur)• Joe Lonsdale on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jtlonsdale/• Tyler Cowen's website: https://tylercowen.com/• This Scandinavian City Just Won the Internet With Its Hilarious New Tourism Ad: https://www.afar.com/magazine/oslos-new-tourism-ad-becomes-viral-hit• Safe Superintelligence: https://ssi.inc/• Mira Murati on X: https://x.com/miramurati• Stripe: https://stripe.com/• Building product at Stripe: craft, metrics, and customer obsession | Jeff Weinstein (Product lead): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-product-at-stripe-jeff-weinstein• Airbus: https://www.airbus.com/en• NIH: https://www.nih.gov/• Jupyter Notebooks: https://jupyter.org/• Shyam Sankar on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamsankar/• Palantir Gotham for Defense Decision Making: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxKghrZU5w8• Foundry 2022 Operating System Demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF-GSj-Exms• SQL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SQL• Airbus A350: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A350• SAP: https://www.sap.com/index.html• Barry McCardel on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/barrymccardel/• Understanding ‘Forward Deployed Engineering' and Why Your Company Probably Shouldn't Do It: https://www.barry.ooo/posts/fde-culture• David Hsu on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dvdhsu/• Retool's Path to Product-Market Fit—Lessons for Getting to 100 Happy Customers, Faster: https://review.firstround.com/retools-path-to-product-market-fit-lessons-for-getting-to-100-happy-customers-faster/• How to foster innovation and big thinking | Eeke de Milliano (Retool, Stripe): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-foster-innovation-and-big• Looker: https://cloud.google.com/looker• Sorry, that isn't an FDE: https://tedmabrey.substack.com/p/sorry-that-isnt-an-fde• Glean: https://www.glean.com/• Limited Engagement: Is Tech Becoming More Diverse?: https://www.bkmag.com/2017/01/31/limited-engagement-creating-diversity-in-the-tech-industry/• Operation Warp Speed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Warp_Speed• Mark Zuckerberg testifies: https://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-ceo-mark-zuckerberg-testifies-congress-libra-cryptocurrency-2019-10• Anduril: https://www.anduril.com/• SpaceX: https://www.spacex.com/• Principles: https://nabeelqu.co/principles• Wispr Flow: https://wisprflow.ai/• Claude code: https://docs.anthropic.com/en/docs/agents-and-tools/claude-code/overview• Gemini Pro 2.5: https://deepmind.google/technologies/gemini/pro/• DeepMind: https://deepmind.google/• Latent Space newsletter: https://www.latent.space/• Swyx on x: https://x.com/swyx• Neural networks in chess programs: https://www.chessprogramming.org/Neural_Networks• AlphaZero: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaZero• The top chess players in the world: https://www.chess.com/players• Decision to Leave: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12477480/• Oldboy: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0364569/• Christopher Alexander: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Alexander—Recommended books:• The Technological Republic: Hard Power, Soft Belief, and the Future of the West: https://www.amazon.com/Technological-Republic-Power-Belief-Future/dp/0593798694• Zero to One: Notes on Startups, or How to Build the Future: https://www.amazon.com/Zero-One-Notes-Startups-Future/dp/0804139296• Impro: Improvisation and the Theatre: https://www.amazon.com/Impro-Improvisation-Theatre-Keith-Johnstone/dp/0878301178/• William Shakespeare: Histories: https://www.amazon.com/Histories-Everymans-Library-William-Shakespeare/dp/0679433120/• High Output Management: https://www.amazon.com/High-Output-Management-Andrew-Grove/dp/0679762884• Anna Karenina: https://www.amazon.com/Anna-Karenina-Leo-Tolstoy/dp/0143035002—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Bucky Moore is a Partner @ Lightspeed Venture Partners, announced exclusively in the show today on 20VC. Prior to Lightspeed, Bucky spent an incredibly successful 7 years at Kleiner Perkins working with Mamoon Hamid to build one of the most successful early stage firms of the last decade. Bucky has made investments in the likes of Prisma, Netlify, Browserbase and more.  In Today's Episode We Discuss: 03:07 Big News: Joining Lightspeed Venture Partners 04:09 Why Mega Platforms Will Win the Next 10 Years of VC 09:33 Are Foundation Model Companies Good Venture Investments 16:04 What Applications Will Model Providers Buy/Build? What Will They Not? 22:03 How to Approach Price Sensitivity in a World of AI 28:25 Why is it BS to do Market Sizing When Making Investments in AI 34:03 Is the Future of VC Domain Specialization 38:38 How to Know What Company Wins in Super Competitive Markets 41:06 Why Every Firm Has to do Pre-Seed To Win in VC Today? 44:43 The Risks of Multi-Stage Investing: Is Signalling Risk Real? 48:53 Investing Lessons from Leading Rounds in Glean and Windsurf 56:54 Quick Fire Round: Lessons from Mamoon, Fave CEO, Next 10 Years  

Send us a text00:00 - Intro00:07 - Neuralink Raises $500M at $9B Valuation01:01 - Discord Appoints New CEO Amid IPO Speculation01:52 - Last of X debt sold by MStanley03:01 - Glean Raises at $7B Valuation as ARR Tops $100M03:43 - Anthropic Adds Claude Features, Projects $34.5B Revenue by 202704:37 - Epic Games Wins Against Apple, Returns to iOS App Store05:37 - Stripe Enables iOS Developers to Bypass Apple's 30% Fee

This is the very first live podcast I've recorded, with the incredible Lisa-Anne who you will all know by now! This podcast gives you a sneak peak into some of the fun stuff we do at the in person Glean events.   You can join Glean today by hitting the link here - https://gleanapp.com

A week after OpenAI's o3/o4-mini volleyed with Google's Gemini 2.5 Flash, I sat down with Arvind Jain— ex-Google search luminary, Rubrik co-founder, and now CEO of Glean —just as his company released its agentic reasoning platform and swirled with rumors of a new round at a $7 billion valuation. We open on that whirlwind: why the model race is accelerating, why enterprises still gravitate to closed models, and when open-source variants finally take over. Arvind argues that LLMs should “fade into the background,” leaving application builders to pick the right engine for each task.From there, we trace Glean's three-act arc—enterprise search powered by transformers (2019), retrieval-augmented chat the moment ChatGPT hit, and now agents that have already logged 50 million real actions inside Glean enterprise customers. Arvind lifts the hood on permission-aware ranking, tool-use orchestration, and the routing layer that swaps Gemini for GPT on the fly. Along the way, he answers the hard questions: Do agents really double efficiency? Where's the moat when every startup promises the same? Why are humans still in the review loop, and for how long?The conversation crescendos with a vision of work where every employee is flanked by a team of proactive AI coworkers—all drawing from a horizontal knowledge layer that knows the firm's language better than any newcomer. If you want to know what's actually working with AI in the enterprise, how to build agents that deliver ROI, and what the next era of work will look like, this episode is packed with specifics, technical insights, and bold predictions from one of the sharpest minds in the space.GleanWebsite - https://www.glean.comX/Twitter - https://x.com/gleanaiArvind Jain LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jain-arvindX/Twitter - https://x.com/jainarvindFIRSTMARKWebsite - https://firstmark.comX/Twitter - https://twitter.com/FirstMarkCapMatt Turck (Managing Director)LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/turck/X/Twitter - https://twitter.com/mattturck(00:00) Intro & Glean's $7B valuation rumor (02:01) The AI model explosion: open vs. closed in the enterprise (06:19) Why enterprises choose open source AI (and when) (10:33) The agent era: what are AI agents and why now? (12:41) Automating business processes: real-world agent use cases (16:46) Are we there yet? The reality of AI agents in 2025 (19:24) Glean's origin story: reinventing enterprise search (26:38) Glean agents: from apps to agentic platforms (31:22) Horizontal vs. vertical: Glean's strategic platform choice (34:14) How Glean's enterprise search works (39:34) Staying LLM-agnostic: integrating new AI models (42:11) The architecture of Glean agents: tool use and beyond (43:50) Data flywheels and personalization in Glean (47:06) Moats, competition, and the future of work with AI agents

Glean is a workplace search and knowledge discovery company that helps organizations find and access information across various internal tools and data sources. Their platform uses AI to provide personalized search results to assist members of an organization in retrieving relevant documents, emails, and conversations. The rise of LLM-based agentic reasoning systems now presents new The post Agentic AI at Glean with Eddie Zhou appeared first on Software Engineering Daily.

Glean is a workplace search and knowledge discovery company that helps organizations find and access information across various internal tools and data sources. Their platform uses AI to provide personalized search results to assist members of an organization in retrieving relevant documents, emails, and conversations. The rise of LLM-based agentic reasoning systems now presents new The post Agentic AI at Glean with Eddie Zhou appeared first on Software Engineering Daily.

Send us a textIn this special episode, EdTech Insiders hits the floor at ASU+GSV 2025—one of the world's premier EdTech conferences—for rapid-fire conversations with the leaders reshaping learning. From AI-native campuses to multilingual agents and human-centered R&D, we go behind the scenes with the innovators driving the future of education.

The UBS AI Podcast explores the fascinating and evolving world of artificial intelligence, how it's transforming industries, redefining what's possible and reshaping the future. On this first episode of the CEO Series, Ulrike Hoffmann-Burchardi, CIO for Global Equities with the UBS Chief Investment Office, converses with Arvind Jain, the CEO and Co-Founder of Glean. Ulrike and Arvind dive into the vision behind Glean, and discuss the future of AI and workplace productivity.

YES, AI WROTE MY SHOWNOTES TODAY±What day think>!?

Today I had the incredible Liana on the podcast, how I've had the honour of coaching since the academy days in 2023, she has stuck with me since then, got life changing results and even won £10,000 in one of the Glean App challenges. Liana shared some great insight on her journey and how she borke free from diet culture.   Evan co hosted this one with me! If you are interested in joining Glean simply hit the link below and jump straight in!   https://gleanapp.com/?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAabGEHp5REfxU4aLd9OtSoSOu6ITZuNuYyX0M8P1SYyDFW89uzwIwfZS2VQ_aem_DMhzezdRLFpoiLlrU6kfgw  

In this episode I had the pleasue of being joined by the incredible Saoirse Kelly

Are you tired of feeling stuck and unsure of how to achieve your goals? Glean from 62 years to shortcut your success. In this video, we'll share the 3 essential action steps you need to speed up your success in just 20 minutes. From productivity hacks to mindset shifts, we'll cover the most critical elements that will help you reach your goals faster. Whether you're an entrepreneur, queenpreneur, or just want to improve your personal life this video will provide you with actionable tips and strategies to get you moving in the right direction. So, what are you waiting for? Watch now and start speeding up your success today! Audition for Queenpreneur Accelerator: https://chontahaynes.com/queen Summary: In this impactful session, Dr. Chonta Haynes shares 62 years of experience in just 20 minutes, offering actionable strategies for success in personal, professional, and financial life. She emphasizes the importance of execution, strategy, and the right guidance to achieve goals effectively. With real-life examples and biblical wisdom, she empowers Queenpreneurs and others to reimagine, reinvent, and reframe their paths to success. Show Notes: 0:00 - 0:30 – Introduction Dr. Chonta Haynes introduces herself and her mission to help individuals succeed by applying her 62 years of experience in a condensed, actionable format. Success is about getting there quicker and smarter, and she's here to share how. 0:30 - 1:00 – Who This is For Though she primarily helps Queenpreneurs, the lessons apply to everyone—both personal and professional development is covered. 1:00 - 1:30 – The 3 Key Strategies for Success Dr. Haynes will share the top three things needed to succeed, based on her experiences, degrees, and biblical wisdom. She starts with #3 and works backward. 1:30 - 3:00 – Strategy #3: Execution Taking action is critical; writing things down isn't enough—checking them off matters. Lessons from a recent women's conference: Knowing what to do is not enough; execution is key. In finances, business, relationships, and faith, execution determines success. 3:00 - 5:30 – Execution in Different Areas of Life Business: Selling, marketing, and fulfilling services/products is key to profit. Relationships: Setting boundaries and recognizing when to shift relationships. Faith: Daily spiritual discipline and prayer lead to growth. 5:30 - 7:30 – Strategy #2: The Power of Strategy Many people fail because they don't have a clear, intentional strategy. Strategy aligns with goals—whether it's speaking on more stages, making more money, or positioning oneself for success. Having a mentor, coach, or someone who has been there before is crucial for avoiding unnecessary struggles. 7:30 - 10:00 – Why Coaching & Mentorship Matter A coach or mentor speeds up success and helps navigate blind spots. Reinventing the wheel is unnecessary—learning from those who have succeeded makes the journey easier. The key is to align with those who have already blazed the trail. Closing Remarks: Success requires execution, strategy, and guidance. The right action and the right people make all the difference. Stay tuned for the next part where she shares the #1 most important strategy for success! Call to Action: Follow Dr. Chonta Haynes for more insights on faith, finance, and business success. Apply these strategies today to start transforming your life!

Are you getting a tax refund this year? I see where many people go splurge the few thousand they get back from overpaying in federal income taxes.... but what if you could make a really powerful move with your money? What if you paid off some debt, started that emergency fund or even started a retirement account?! What could this mean for the future version of you? Will they be ecstatically thanking you for being wise and thoughtful?! Glean a few ideas from your Credit Coach on how to improve your credit and your financial profile!Questions@creditkristi.com

Guest: Ben Chestnut, Former CEO and Co-Founder of MailchimpIf you find yourself selling your startup, then Mailchimp co-founder Ben Chestnut has some important advice for you: Get a dog. When Intuit bought Mailchimp in 2021 for $12 billion, the company asked Ben if he wanted to stay on as CEO, but he chose to “walk off into the sunset” and let the new owners take over. After that, he estimates it took 6 to 12 months before he stopped checking his email, social media, and calendar with the same level of stress a CEO might have. Adopting a dog, he discovered, forces you to “get OK with the voices in your head."“After the acquisition, that's all I do, I walk the dog,” Ben says. “And the dog was good therapy ... No judgments from a dog.”Chapters:(01:09) - Growing slow (03:06) - The long journey (07:48) - Is money a burden? (09:35) - Building globally in Atlanta (11:22) - Ben's upbringing (12:59) - The first 10 years (17:58) - Scaling to one billion emails (19:22) - Freemium (23:32) - No equity (26:00) - Deciding to sell (33:55) - “I'm a sunset guy” (35:29) - Stress and support (37:25) - Time with the parents (39:07) - Get a dog (42:24) - The voices in your head (46:03) - Serial and “Mailkimp” (53:00) - Hiring interviews (57:14) - Fitness routines (59:27) - Lights off (01:01:46) - AI & reinvention (01:06:30) - The worst days (01:09:15) - What “grit” means to Ben Mentioned in this episode: Intuit, Wolt, DoorDash, LinkedIn, Dan Kurzius, Salesforce, ExactTarget, Pardot, Constant Contact, Rackspace, Free by Chris Anderson, Wired Magazine, Charles Hudson, the Freemium Summit, Drew Houston, Dropbox, Evernote, Phil Libin, TechCrunch, Brian Kane, Catalyst Partners, Georgia Pacific, Scott Cook, Bing Gordon, Vinay Hiremath, Loom, Joe Thomas, Caltrain, Flickr, Saturday Night Live, Droga5, Cannes Film Festival, Strava, Twitter, LinkedIn, Nvidia, Glean, Rubrik, Amazon AWS, and Mechnical Turk.Links:Connect with BenLinkedInConnect with JoubinTwitterLinkedInEmail: grit@kleinerperkins.com Learn more about Kleiner Perkins

In this episode of McKinsey on Building Products, host Rikki Singh and Tamar Yehoshua, President of Product and Technology at Glean, delve into the evolving landscape of product leadership in the age of AI. They discuss the pivotal role of customer obsession, the challenges of integrating AI into product management, and strategies for leveraging AI to enhance productivity and innovation.See www.mckinsey.com/privacy-policy for privacy information

Discover the future of AI startups and enterprise adoption with Arvind Jain, Founder and CEO of Glean, in CXOTalk episode 871. Arvind explains:How AI startups differ from traditional software companiesStrategies for rapid revenue scaling in AI-native businessesKey considerations for CIOs evaluating AI solutionsManaging AI ethics, security, and transparency risksPractical advice for entrepreneurs starting AI venturesThe evolving landscape of AI integration in enterprise workflowsLearn why centralizing AI strategy, focusing on small wins, and prioritizing security are crucial for successful AI implementation. Arvind emphasizes the importance of solving real business problems and adapting to the rapidly changing AI landscape.Whether you're a CIO, entrepreneur, or business leader interested in AI's transformative potential, this episode offers actionable insights to guide your AI journey.

Guest: George Kurian, CEO of NetAppFor almost 10 years, George Kurian has been CEO of the data infrastructure firm NetApp, overseeing its pivot to cloud services. After he  took the job — a surprise promotion dropped on him just days before it was announced — he had to learn on the job how the job could be.“ There are a lot more stakeholders that a CEO has to deal with than a chief product officer,” George says, referring to his previous role. “There's also a lot more external commitment ... It was a really all-consuming effort to get the company turned around.”He said the CEO job can be “fairly lonely” because you may want to be peers or friends with your team and your board — but in fact, they are sometimes your subordinates and your superiors, respectively.“ We wouldn't be here without others having contributed significantly on the journey,” George says. “[But] there are times when you have to step back and say, ‘I see a pattern that my team is not seeing,' or ‘Do I think that we can do a better job than we are doing?'”Chapters:(01:10) - Commuting to Sunnyvale (04:49) - Growing up in India (08:04) - Protect the child (09:33) - Raising kids in Silicon Valley (12:44) - Money motivation (15:04) - NetApp's renaissance (21:39) - Writing new chapters (23:15) - Culture shifts (26:38) - Coming to NetApp (29:41) - Surprise! You're the CEO (32:41) - Making sacrifices (35:04) - Work vs. family tension (37:18) - Doubt & lonely decisions (42:38) - The data wave (45:27) - Enterprise AI (51:36) - Starting your own company (53:33) - Navigating difficulty (56:28) - Who NetApp is hiring (57:11) - What “grit” means to George Mentioned in this episode: EMC, OpenAI, DeepSeek, CalTrain, the San Francisco 49ers, Princeton University, Subway, Vons, Thomas Kurian, Google Cloud, Stanford University, Brian Cox, Oliver Jay, the Quakers, Jay Chaudhry, zScaler, Manmohan Singh, Oracle, IBM, Sun, Amazon, Microsoft, Glean, Kobe Bryant, Steph Curry, McKinsey, Akamai, Cisco, Gwen McDonald, and the San Francisco Friends School.Links:Connect with GeorgeLinkedInConnect with JoubinTwitterLinkedInEmail: grit@kleinerperkins.com Learn more about Kleiner PerkinsThis episode was edited by Eric Johnson from LightningPod.fm

Guests: Winston Weinberg, CEO & co-founder of Harvey; and Ilya Fushman, partner at Kleiner Perkins“If you think about pretty much any job out there in the world, we will have some sort of [AI] copilot,” says Kleiner Perkins partner Ilya Fushman. “The question is, who are the right folks to build it, and what's their vision?”For Harvey CEO & co-founder Winston Weinberg, the vision is clear: Silicon Valley cannot and should not try to disrupt the legal profession by automating the job of lawyers. Instead, he says, they need to have “respect for the industry” before designing AI solutions that speed up specific tasks.“These industries are incredibly complex,” Winston says. “Legal is one of the oldest professions known to man. There are firms that are over a hundred years old. There are firms that are hundreds of years old, and having a brand that says, ‘We are partnering with the industry to transform it' versus ‘We are just going to steamroll the industry' is really important for us.”Chapters:(01:16) - The zeitgeist switch (02:58) - What is Harvey? (06:10) - Chief Law Officers (07:58) - Agentic workflows (09:43) - Ilya's investment thesis (12:48) - Collaborating with AI (16:05) - Task automation (20:52) - Why is it called Harvey? (23:14) - Respecting the legal industry (26:43) - Winston's past jobs (28:47) - First steps (32:13) - Scaling the company (35:02) - Scaling yourself (37:19) - Who works for Harvey (40:50) - Making mistakes (43:15) - Making sacrifices (45:51) - Growing too fast (50:50) - Setting priorities (54:54) - Harvey's competitors (57:38) - Internal virality (01:00:46) - Testing Harvey's limits (01:03:29) - Who Harvey is hiring (01:04:01) - What “grit” means to Winston Mentioned in this episode: ChatGPT, the Fortune 500, Microsoft Copilot, Gabe Pereyra, Activision, Excel, Counsel AI Corporation, Suits, Harvard University, Netflix, Dell, O'Melveny & Myers, Hueston Hennigan, Meta, Reddit, Jason Kwon, Anthropic, Marissa Mayer, Eric Schmidt, Google, Larry Page, Sergey Brin, and Glean.Links:Connect with WinstonTwitterLinkedInConnect with IlyaTwitterLinkedInConnect with JoubinTwitterLinkedInEmail: grit@kleinerperkins.com Learn more about Kleiner PerkinsThis episode was edited by Eric Johnson from LightningPod.fm

Master Chef and award-winning culinary creator, Jan Sather, "hops to it" with a rabbit dish that will blow your mind and taste buds. In this Fowl Life Podcast Provider Series Eat Wild Edition learn step by step how to easily put a 5-star wild game dinner on the table. Glean the expertise of Master Chef Jan and gain the approval of your family. Join Host Joel Kleefisch, Fowl Life Midwest Pro Staffer, Danielle Fairman, and Chef Jan Sather for a trip from the woods to the table you'll never forget. Hassenpfeffer Recipe: Four thawed Rabbit Hindquarters or one whole rabbit cut into pieces For the marinade: 2 Cups White Wine 3 T. White Vinegar 3 T. Sugar 2 Large Onions, Sliced 3-4 T. Minced Garlic (or 6 garlic cloves) 1 T. Course Black Pepper 1. Salt 1 T. THE BRIT Provider Spice For Frying: One stick butter/3 T. Olive Oil or Veg Oil For Thickening: 1/4 Cup Flour Combine marinade ingredients and pour over in 9 x 13 pan. Cover and refrigerate overnight. Next day, remove rabbit pieces from the marinade and pat dry with paper towels, and place aside. Heat butter and oil in a cast-iron skillet over medium heat and add rabbit pieces to brown on both sides. Take your time! Remove rabbit from skillet and put all of the marinade ingredients, including onions in the pan. When onions become translucent, add the flour and stir until combined, and sauce, begins to thicken. Return browned rabbit to skillet with sauce, and place in 350° oven for one and a half hours. Ready to serve and enjoy! Check out the video on Instagram, Facebook, and Youtube @Theproviderlife, & Theproviderlife.com. This Episode is brought to you by Travel Wisconsin, The Provider Culinary, Bad Boy Mowers, ZLine, Hi Viz, Banded Brands, Jacks Link's, Kershaw knives, Secureit Gun Safes, and Avery GHG Decoys!

In the latest episode of Pure Report Unplugged, the team dives into the exciting world of TechSummit Season 3 with JD's announcement of new focus areas including the Pure Storage Platform, Real-Time Enterprise File and Object services, and customer success stories from the field. The tour kicks off in Calgary, Alberta before moving to San Diego, Toronto, Atlanta, and more locations, with Andrew scheduled to appear at the inaugural Calgary event. Listeners also get insight into the team's behind-the-scenes work, from Andrew's enablement initiatives and bootcamp development to Rob's journey in production for Sales Kickoff, plus news about upcoming video podcasts and an updated web landing page. The episode's Pure News Roundup covers significant company developments, including Andrew's commentary on the enhanced Partner Program and JD's updates on Fusion features like simplified management, presets, and automation improvements. The team emphasizes the "Subscription to Innovation" philosophy available on version 6.8, discussing how security challenges and cloud technologies are transforming update strategies toward more resilient architectures. Rob also shares exciting details about Accelerate registration opening February 18th in Las Vegas at Resortsworld, highlighting expanded offerings based on attendee feedback such as more hands-on labs, customer speakers, community meetups, and certification opportunities. The Tech News Roundup segment explores fascinating AI advancements from Deepseek, Grok3, and Glean, alongside Oxford scientists' claims about quantum teleportation, drawing a nostalgic connection to Willy Wonka's Mike TeeVee character. The episode concludes with practical tips, including JD's guide to building a Pure LED wall panel using Nanoleaf Shapes Triangles with HomeKit compatibility and Pure Orange (Hex #FE5000), plus Andrew's highlight of the Genealogy View feature in Pure 1, complete with a customer anecdote about demonstrating cost savings to finance teams.

Enterprise search is a problem that's plagued companies since the advent of working on computers. Now, AI promises solutions. In this week's episode, host Michael Mignano from Lightspeed sits down with Arvind Jain, founder and CEO of Glean, to discuss the evolution of AI-assisted enterprise search. Arvind shares what insights helped to start Glean's journey in 2019, how the company leveraged transformer-based models early on, and how Glean developed the market for this product. They also talk about competition, the technical aspects of integrating Glean across SaaS platforms, and the monumental impact of ChatGPT on the industry. Episode Chapters(00:00) Introduction (01:15) Why Arvind Created Glean to Solve Enterprise Search Problems(03:50) Technical Foundations: Building Glean with Transformers(09:04) Product Market Fit and Early Challenges(12:16) The Impact of ChatGPT and Market Evolution(13:42) Glean's Architecture and Model Integration(17:58) The Future of AI in Enterprises(27:52) Leadership, Competition, and Company Culture(35:48) Reflections and Lessons from Rubrik to Glean(41:15) Lightning Round and Closing RemarksStay in touch:www.lsvp.comX: https://twitter.com/lightspeedvpLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/lightspeed-venture-partners/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lightspeedventurepartners/Subscribe on your favorite podcast app: generativenow.coEmail: generativenow@lsvp.comThe content here does not constitute tax, legal, business or investment advice or an offer to provide such advice, should not be construed as advocating the purchase or sale of any security or investment or a recommendation of any company, and is not an offer, or solicitation of an offer, for the purchase or sale of any security or investment product. For more details please see lsvp.com/legal.

#updateai #customersuccess #saas #businessLauren Kennedy (Head of CS, Glean) joins Josh Schachter (CEO & Co-Founder, UpdateAI) and Jon Johnson (Principal CSM, UserTesting) to share her insights on how Agentic AI is transforming customer success management by automating low-value tasks and enhancing productivity. She also discusses how they're leveraging their own technology to optimize internal operations and improve client engagements.**Timestamps:**0:00 - Preview, BS & Intros4:20 - Glean's X-factor8:20 - What is Agentic AI?12:00 - Goals for 202514:30 - Company Culture and Hiring Needs18:04 - Collaboration between Sales & CS20:55 - Glean for post-sales24:00 - Lauren's career path and insights___________________________

Deedy Das invests at Menlo Ventures in Seed and Series A companies in AI / SaaS / Infra and helps run the $100M Anthology Fund with Anthropic. He was on the founding team of the $4.6B enterprise search and AI company Glean, where he built and led Glean Assistant to $15M+ ARR. Deedy also writes frequently about tech, AI, startups, and immigration on X which have received 400M+ views and been featured frequently in Forbes, Wall Street Journal, TechCrunch, and more. Discover how Deedy's experience with founding an AI company sparked his passion for supporting budding startups. Gain insights into his work with the $100 million Anthology Fund with Anthropic, which offers a refreshing flexibility compared to traditional venture capital frameworks. Deedy also opens up about his immigration journey from India to the U.S., shedding light on the complex H1B visa process and its impact on talented individuals striving to establish themselves in the U.S. In this episode, you'll hear about: Deedy Das's transition from engineering to venture capital and his role at Menlo Ventures and Glean. Challenges and strategies for navigating the H1B and EB1A visa processes as an immigrant entrepreneur. Insights into the flexibility and structure of the $100 million Anthology Fund with Anthropic. The need for reform in green card pathways and exploring international models for immigration. Strategies for non-citizen entrepreneurs in the U.S., focusing on visa eligibility and fundraising. The importance of customer feedback over investor opinions for startup success. Follow and Review: We'd love for you to follow us if you haven't yet. Click that purple '+' in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. We'd love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast. Supporting Resources: Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/debarghyadas/ Website - https://debarghyadas.com/ https://x.com/AravSrinivas/status/1851700699756925059?lang=en  https://menlovc.com/anthology-fund/  Alcorn Immigration Law: Subscribe to the monthly Alcorn newsletter Sophie Alcorn Podcast: Episode 16: E-2 Visa for Founders and Employees Episode 19: Australian Visas Including E-3 Episode 20: TN Visas and Status for Canadian and Mexican Citizens Immigration Options for Talent, Investors, and Founders Immigration Law for Tech Startups eBook

My guest today is Arvind Jain, the founder and CEO of Glean. Before Glean, Arvind spent over a decade building Google's search infrastructure. He then co-founded Rubrik, which recently passed $1B ARR.With Glean, Arvind is tackling the longstanding challenge of enterprise search. Yet his vision goes beyond this. He believes every employee should have their own team of AI agents to help them work smarter and achieve more. In our conversation, Arvind shares his journey as a technical founder and offers his unique perspective on what it takes to build a successful startup today. We also discuss where AI is heading, and where he sees the biggest opportunities for founders. Hope you find this conversation valuable! Chapters:00:00 Cold open04:42 How Arvind began his journey in search06:59 Arvind on Glean's mission08:50 The evolution of enterprise search12:56 How AI unlocks a new dimension for search16:56 Lessons for AI startup founders21:23 Navigating the AI startup landscape25:44 The "build vs. buy" decision with AI models31:09 Defining the role of AI in business34:57 The future of work with AI agents39:30 The shift from SaaS to Service-as-Software41:21 Concluding thoughts

“The AI trend still feels significantly larger than all of those previous trends that we've seen in technology over the last three decades” Glean CEO and founder Arvind Jain tells Bloomberg Intelligence. The growing enterprise-information stack that's dispersed across diverse systems adds complexity and Glean enables organizations to deploy AI-powered knowledge retrieval systems for customer workflows and systems, on the lines of ChatGPT or Google Search. In this episode of the Tech Disruptors podcast, he joins Sunil Rajgopal, BI's senior software analyst, to discuss the AI-fueled changes to enterprise knowledge management, the impact of AI agents and the broader implications of AI. They also talk about Glean's product evolution, competition landscape and pricing model. Find this and other Bloomberg Intelligence podcasts at BI PODCASTS .

Our star players try to get to the bottom of the recent pro Violenceball game which went unbroadcasted and no one in the audience seems to remember. Their search takes them from the height of the Crumblemire Consortium announcer's box to the depths of the Motorlodge's VHS dungeon. Thanks to Shayne Plunkett & Jesse Wright of Meadow Vista Media, who created this season's intro theme: www.meadowvistamedia.com Twitter: @MVM_Studio IG: @meadowvistamedia Buy our book, The Ultimate Random Encounters Book: bit.ly/RandomBook Find out more about the show at our website: www.vre.show Show pins and more: shop.vre.show Support us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/VRE Follow us @VRECast

The title basically sums it up, this podcast is your complete guide to all things nutrition for weight loss, health and life in general.   I'm joined by Glean head coaches Evan & Saoirse for this episode so you'll get a bit of an insight into the craic we have on the calls on a weekly basis.   Glean goes live again 3rd Feb at 10am Irish time, I'll have links on my profile and all you'll need to do is click them on the day!

The importance of seeking wisdom from godly leaders before they are no longer available

Applications close Monday for the NYC AI Engineer Summit focusing on AI Leadership and Agent Engineering! If you applied, invites should be rolling out shortly.The search landscape is experiencing a fundamental shift. Google built a >$2T company with the “10 blue links” experience, driven by PageRank as the core innovation for ranking. This was a big improvement from the previous directory-based experiences of AltaVista and Yahoo. Almost 4 decades later, Google is now stuck in this links-based experience, especially from a business model perspective. This legacy architecture creates fundamental constraints:* Must return results in ~400 milliseconds* Required to maintain comprehensive web coverage* Tied to keyword-based matching algorithms* Cost structures optimized for traditional indexingAs we move from the era of links to the era of answers, the way search works is changing. You're not showing a user links, but the goal is to provide context to an LLM. This means moving from keyword based search to more semantic understanding of the content:The link prediction objective can be seen as like a neural PageRank because what you're doing is you're predicting the links people share... but it's more powerful than PageRank. It's strictly more powerful because people might refer to that Paul Graham fundraising essay in like a thousand different ways. And so our model learns all the different ways.All of this is now powered by a $5M cluster with 144 H200s:This architectural choice enables entirely new search capabilities:* Comprehensive result sets instead of approximations* Deep semantic understanding of queries* Ability to process complex, natural language requestsAs search becomes more complex, time to results becomes a variable:People think of searches as like, oh, it takes 500 milliseconds because we've been conditioned... But what if searches can take like a minute or 10 minutes or a whole day, what can you then do?Unlike traditional search engines' fixed-cost indexing, Exa employs a hybrid approach:* Front-loaded compute for indexing and embeddings* Variable inference costs based on query complexity* Mix of owned infrastructure ($5M H200 cluster) and cloud resourcesExa sees a lot of competition from products like Perplexity and ChatGPT Search which layer AI on top of traditional search backends, but Exa is betting that true innovation requires rethinking search from the ground up. For example, the recently launched Websets, a way to turn searches into structured output in grid format, allowing you to create lists and databases out of web pages. The company raised a $17M Series A to build towards this mission, so keep an eye out for them in 2025. Chapters* 00:00:00 Introductions* 00:01:12 ExaAI's initial pitch and concept* 00:02:33 Will's background at SpaceX and Zoox* 00:03:45 Evolution of ExaAI (formerly Metaphor Systems)* 00:05:38 Exa's link prediction technology* 00:09:20 Meaning of the name "Exa"* 00:10:36 ExaAI's new product launch and capabilities* 00:13:33 Compute budgets and variable compute products* 00:14:43 Websets as a B2B offering* 00:19:28 How do you build a search engine?* 00:22:43 What is Neural PageRank?* 00:27:58 Exa use cases * 00:35:00 Auto-prompting* 00:38:42 Building agentic search* 00:44:19 Is o1 on the path to AGI?* 00:49:59 Company culture and nap pods* 00:54:52 Economics of AI search and the future of search technologyFull YouTube TranscriptPlease like and subscribe!Show Notes* ExaAI* Web Search Product* Websets* Series A Announcement* Exa Nap Pods* Perplexity AI* Character.AITranscriptAlessio [00:00:00]: Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Latent Space podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO at Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co-host Swyx, founder of Smol.ai.Swyx [00:00:10]: Hey, and today we're in the studio with my good friend and former landlord, Will Bryk. Roommate. How you doing? Will, you're now CEO co-founder of ExaAI, used to be Metaphor Systems. What's your background, your story?Will [00:00:30]: Yeah, sure. So, yeah, I'm CEO of Exa. I've been doing it for three years. I guess I've always been interested in search, whether I knew it or not. Like, since I was a kid, I've always been interested in, like, high-quality information. And, like, you know, even in high school, wanted to improve the way we get information from news. And then in college, built a mini search engine. And then with Exa, like, you know, it's kind of like fulfilling the dream of actually being able to solve all the information needs I wanted as a kid. Yeah, I guess. I would say my entire life has kind of been rotating around this problem, which is pretty cool. Yeah.Swyx [00:00:50]: What'd you enter YC with?Will [00:00:53]: We entered YC with, uh, we are better than Google. Like, Google 2.0.Swyx [00:01:12]: What makes you say that? Like, that's so audacious to come out of the box with.Will [00:01:16]: Yeah, okay, so you have to remember the time. This was summer 2021. And, uh, GPT-3 had come out. Like, here was this magical thing that you could talk to, you could enter a whole paragraph, and it understands what you mean, understands the subtlety of your language. And then there was Google. Uh, which felt like it hadn't changed in a decade, uh, because it really hadn't. And it, like, you would give it a simple query, like, I don't know, uh, shirts without stripes, and it would give you a bunch of results for the shirts with stripes. And so, like, Google could barely understand you, and GBD3 could. And the theory was, what if you could make a search engine that actually understood you? What if you could apply the insights from LLMs to a search engine? And it's really been the same idea ever since. And we're actually a lot closer now, uh, to doing that. Yeah.Alessio [00:01:55]: Did you have any trouble making people believe? Obviously, there's the same element. I mean, YC overlap, was YC pretty AI forward, even 2021, or?Will [00:02:03]: It's nothing like it is today. But, um, uh, there were a few AI companies, but, uh, we were definitely, like, bold. And I think people, VCs generally like boldness, and we definitely had some AI background, and we had a working demo. So there was evidence that we could build something that was going to work. But yeah, I think, like, the fundamentals were there. I think people at the time were talking about how, you know, Google was failing in a lot of ways. And so there was a bit of conversation about it, but AI was not a big, big thing at the time. Yeah. Yeah.Alessio [00:02:33]: Before we jump into Exa, any fun background stories? I know you interned at SpaceX, any Elon, uh, stories? I know you were at Zoox as well, you know, kind of like robotics at Harvard. Any stuff that you saw early that you thought was going to get solved that maybe it's not solved today?Will [00:02:48]: Oh yeah. I mean, lots of things like that. Like, uh, I never really learned how to drive because I believed Elon that self-driving cars would happen. It did happen. And I take them every night to get home. But it took like 10 more years than I thought. Do you still not know how to drive? I know how to drive now. I learned it like two years ago. That would have been great to like, just, you know, Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? Um, I was obsessed with Elon. Yeah. I mean, I worked at SpaceX because I really just wanted to work at one of his companies. And I remember they had a rule, like interns cannot touch Elon. And, um, that rule actually influenced my actions.Swyx [00:03:18]: Is it, can Elon touch interns? Ooh, like physically?Will [00:03:22]: Or like talk? Physically, physically, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, interesting. He's changed a lot, but, um, I mean, his companies are amazing. Um,Swyx [00:03:28]: What if you beat him at Diablo 2, Diablo 4, you know, like, Ah, maybe.Alessio [00:03:34]: I want to jump into, I know there's a lot of backstory used to be called metaphor system. So, um, and it, you've always been kind of like a prominent company, maybe at least RAI circles in the NSF.Swyx [00:03:45]: I'm actually curious how Metaphor got its initial aura. You launched with like, very little. We launched very little. Like there was, there was this like big splash image of like, this is Aurora or something. Yeah. Right. And then I was like, okay, what this thing, like the vibes are good, but I don't know what it is. And I think, I think it was much more sort of maybe consumer facing than what you are today. Would you say that's true?Will [00:04:06]: No, it's always been about building a better search algorithm, like search, like, just like the vision has always been perfect search. And if you do that, uh, we will figure out the downstream use cases later. It started on this fundamental belief that you could have perfect search over the web and we could talk about what that means. And like the initial thing we released was really just like our first search engine, like trying to get it out there. Kind of like, you know, an open source. So when OpenAI released, uh, ChachBt, like they didn't, I don't know how, how much of a game plan they had. They kind of just wanted to get something out there.Swyx [00:04:33]: Spooky research preview.Will [00:04:34]: Yeah, exactly. And it kind of morphed from a research company to a product company at that point. And I think similarly for us, like we were research, we started as a research endeavor with a, you know, clear eyes that like, if we succeed, it will be a massive business to make out of it. And that's kind of basically what happened. I think there are actually a lot of parallels to, of w between Exa and OpenAI. I often say we're the OpenAI of search. Um, because. Because we're a research company, we're a research startup that does like fundamental research into, uh, making like AGI for search in a, in a way. Uh, and then we have all these like, uh, business products that come out of that.Swyx [00:05:08]: Interesting. I want to ask a little bit more about Metaforesight and then we can go full Exa. When I first met you, which was really funny, cause like literally I stayed in your house in a very historic, uh, Hayes, Hayes Valley place. You said you were building sort of like link prediction foundation model, and I think there's still a lot of foundation model work. I mean, within Exa today, but what does that even mean? I cannot be the only person confused by that because like there's a limited vocabulary or tokens you're telling me, like the tokens are the links or, you know, like it's not, it's not clear. Yeah.Will [00:05:38]: Uh, what we meant by link prediction is that you are literally predicting, like given some texts, you're predicting the links that follow. Yes. That refers to like, it's how we describe the training procedure, which is that we find links on the web. Uh, we take the text surrounding the link. And then we predict. Which link follows you, like, uh, you know, similar to transformers where, uh, you're trying to predict the next token here, you're trying to predict the next link. And so you kind of like hide the link from the transformer. So if someone writes, you know, imagine some article where someone says, Hey, check out this really cool aerospace startup. And they, they say spacex.com afterwards, uh, we hide the spacex.com and ask the model, like what link came next. And by doing that many, many times, you know, billions of times, you could actually build a search engine out of that because then, uh, at query time at search time. Uh, you type in, uh, a query that's like really cool aerospace startup and the model will then try to predict what are the most likely links. So there's a lot of analogs to transformers, but like to actually make this work, it does require like a different architecture than, but it's transformer inspired. Yeah.Alessio [00:06:41]: What's the design decision between doing that versus extracting the link and the description and then embedding the description and then using, um, yeah. What do you need to predict the URL versus like just describing, because you're kind of do a similar thing in a way. Right. It's kind of like based on this description, it was like the closest link for it. So one thing is like predicting the link. The other approach is like I extract the link and the description, and then based on the query, I searched the closest description to it more. Yeah.Will [00:07:09]: That, that, by the way, that is, that is the link refers here to a document. It's not, I think one confusing thing is it's not, you're not actually predicting the URL, the URL itself that would require like the, the system to have memorized URLs. You're actually like getting the actual document, a more accurate name could be document prediction. I see. This was the initial like base model that Exo was trained on, but we've moved beyond that similar to like how, you know, uh, to train a really good like language model, you might start with this like self-supervised objective of predicting the next token and then, uh, just from random stuff on the web. But then you, you want to, uh, add a bunch of like synthetic data and like supervised fine tuning, um, stuff like that to make it really like controllable and robust. Yeah.Alessio [00:07:48]: Yeah. We just have flow from Lindy and, uh, their Lindy started to like hallucinate recrolling YouTube links instead of like, uh, something. Yeah. Support guide. So. Oh, interesting. Yeah.Swyx [00:07:57]: So round about January, you announced your series A and renamed to Exo. I didn't like the name at the, at the initial, but it's grown on me. I liked metaphor, but apparently people can spell metaphor. What would you say are the major components of Exo today? Right? Like, I feel like it used to be very model heavy. Then at the AI engineer conference, Shreyas gave a really good talk on the vector database that you guys have. What are the other major moving parts of Exo? Okay.Will [00:08:23]: So Exo overall is a search engine. Yeah. We're trying to make it like a perfect search engine. And to do that, you have to build lots of, and we're doing it from scratch, right? So to do that, you have to build lots of different. The crawler. Yeah. You have to crawl a bunch of the web. First of all, you have to find the URLs to crawl. Uh, it's connected to the crawler, but yeah, you find URLs, you crawl those URLs. Then you have to process them with some, you know, it could be an embedding model. It could be something more complex, but you need to take, you know, or like, you know, in the past it was like a keyword inverted index. Like you would process all these documents you gather into some processed index, and then you have to serve that. Uh, you had high throughput at low latency. And so that, and that's like the vector database. And so it's like the crawling system, the AI processing system, and then the serving system. Those are all like, you know, teams of like hundreds, maybe thousands of people at Google. Um, but for us, it's like one or two people each typically, but yeah.Alessio [00:09:13]: Can you explain the meaning of, uh, Exo, just the story 10 to the 16th, uh, 18, 18.Will [00:09:20]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. So. Exo means 10 to the 18th, which is in stark contrast to. To Google, which is 10 to the hundredth. Uh, we actually have these like awesome shirts that are like 10th to 18th is greater than 10th to the hundredth. Yeah, it's great. And it's great because it's provocative. It's like every engineer in Silicon Valley is like, what? No, it's not true. Um, like, yeah. And, uh, and then you, you ask them, okay, what does it actually mean? And like the creative ones will, will recognize it. But yeah, I mean, 10 to the 18th is better than 10 to the hundredth when it comes to search, because with search, you want like the actual list of, of things that match what you're asking for. You don't want like the whole web. You want to basically with search filter, the, like everything that humanity has ever created to exactly what you want. And so the idea is like smaller is better there. You want like the best 10th to the 18th and not the 10th to the hundredth. I'm like, one way to say this is like, you know how Google often says at the top, uh, like, you know, 30 million results found. And it's like crazy. Cause you're looking for like the first startups in San Francisco that work on hardware or something. And like, they're not 30 million results like that. What you want is like 325 results found. And those are all the results. That's what you really want with search. And that's, that's our vision. It's like, it just gives you. Perfectly what you asked for.Swyx [00:10:24]: We're recording this ahead of your launch. Uh, we haven't released, we haven't figured out the, the, the name of the launch yet, but what is the product that you're launching? I guess now that we're coinciding this podcast with. Yeah.Will [00:10:36]: So we've basically developed the next version of Exa, which is the ability to get a near perfect list of results of whatever you want. And what that means is you can make a complex query now to Exa, for example, startups working on hardware in SF, and then just get a huge list of all the things that match. And, you know, our goal is if there are 325 startups that match that we find you all of them. And this is just like, there's just like a new experience that's never existed before. It's really like, I don't know how you would go about that right now with current tools and you can apply this same type of like technology to anything. Like, let's say you want, uh, you want to find all the blog posts that talk about Alessio's podcast, um, that have come out in the past year. That is 30 million results. Yeah. Right.Will [00:11:24]: But that, I mean, that would, I'm sure that would be extremely useful to you guys. And like, I don't really know how you would get that full comprehensive list.Swyx [00:11:29]: I just like, how do you, well, there's so many questions with regards to how do you know it's complete, right? Cause you're saying there's only 30 million, 325, whatever. And then how do you do the semantic understanding that it might take, right? So working in hardware, like I might not use the words hardware. I might use the words robotics. I might use the words wearables. I might use like whatever. Yes. So yeah, just tell us more. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Sure.Will [00:11:53]: So one aspect of this, it's a little subjective. So like certainly providing, you know, at some point we'll provide parameters to the user to like, you know, some sort of threshold to like, uh, gauge like, okay, like this is a cutoff. Like, this is actually not what I mean, because sometimes it's subjective and there needs to be a feedback loop. Like, oh, like it might give you like a few examples and you say, yeah, exactly. And so like, you're, you're kind of like creating a classifier on the fly, but like, that's ultimately how you solve the problem. So the subject, there's a subjectivity problem and then there's a comprehensiveness problem. Those are two different problems. So. Yeah. So you have the comprehensiveness problem. What you basically have to do is you have to put more compute into the query, into the search until you get the full comprehensiveness. Yeah. And I think there's an interesting point here, which is that not all queries are made equal. Some queries just like this blog post one might require scanning, like scavenging, like throughout the whole web in a way that just, just simply requires more compute. You know, at some point there's some amount of compute where you will just be comprehensive. You could imagine, for example, running GPT-4 over the internet. You could imagine running GPT-4 over the entire web and saying like, is this a blog post about Alessio's podcast, like, is this a blog post about Alessio's podcast? And then that would work, right? It would take, you know, a year, maybe cost like a million dollars, but, or many more, but, um, it would work. Uh, the point is that like, given sufficient compute, you can solve the query. And so it's really a question of like, how comprehensive do you want it given your compute budget? I think it's very similar to O1, by the way. And one way of thinking about what we built is like O1 for search, uh, because O1 is all about like, you know, some, some, some questions require more compute than others, and we'll put as much compute into the question as we need to solve it. So similarly with our search, we will put as much compute into the query in order to get comprehensiveness. Yeah.Swyx [00:13:33]: Does that mean you have like some kind of compute budget that I can specify? Yes. Yes. Okay. And like, what are the upper and lower bounds?Will [00:13:42]: Yeah, there's something we're still figuring out. I think like, like everyone is a new paradigm of like variable compute products. Yeah. How do you specify the amount of compute? Like what happens when you. Run out? Do you just like, ah, do you, can you like keep going with it? Like, do you just put in more credits to get more, um, for some, like this can get complex at like the really large compute queries. And like, one thing we do is we give you a preview of what you're going to get, and then you could then spin up like a much larger job, uh, to get like way more results. But yes, there is some compute limit, um, at, at least right now. Yeah. People think of searches as like, oh, it takes 500 milliseconds because we've been conditioned, uh, to have search that takes 500 milliseconds. But like search engines like Google, right. No matter how complex your query to Google, it will take like, you know, roughly 400 milliseconds. But what if searches can take like a minute or 10 minutes or a whole day, what can you then do? And you can do very powerful things. Um, you know, you can imagine, you know, writing a search, going and get a cup of coffee, coming back and you have a perfect list. Like that's okay for a lot of use cases. Yeah.Alessio [00:14:43]: Yeah. I mean, the use case closest to me is venture capital, right? So, uh, no, I mean, eight years ago, I built one of the first like data driven sourcing platforms. So we were. You look at GitHub, Twitter, Product Hunt, all these things, look at interesting things, evaluate them. If you think about some jobs that people have, it's like literally just make a list. If you're like an analyst at a venture firm, your job is to make a list of interesting companies. And then you reach out to them. How do you think about being infrastructure versus like a product you could say, Hey, this is like a product to find companies. This is a product to find things versus like offering more as a blank canvas that people can build on top of. Oh, right. Right.Will [00:15:20]: Uh, we are. We are a search infrastructure company. So we want people to build, uh, on top of us, uh, build amazing products on top of us. But with this one, we try to build something that makes it really easy for users to just log in, put a few, you know, put some credits in and just get like amazing results right away and not have to wait to build some API integration. So we're kind of doing both. Uh, we, we want, we want people to integrate this into all their applications at the same time. We want to just make it really easy to use very similar again to open AI. Like they'll have, they have an API, but they also have. Like a ChatGPT interface so that you could, it's really easy to use, but you could also build it in your applications. Yeah.Alessio [00:15:56]: I'm still trying to wrap my head around a lot of the implications. So, so many businesses run on like information arbitrage, you know, like I know this thing that you don't, especially in investment and financial services. So yeah, now all of a sudden you have these tools for like, oh, actually everybody can get the same information at the same time, the same quality level as an API call. You know, it just kind of changes a lot of things. Yeah.Will [00:16:19]: I think, I think what we're grappling with here. What, what you're just thinking about is like, what is the world like if knowledge is kind of solved, if like any knowledge request you want is just like right there on your computer, it's kind of different from when intelligence is solved. There's like a good, I've written before about like a different super intelligence, super knowledge. Yeah. Like I think that the, the distinction between intelligence and knowledge is actually a pretty good one. They're definitely connected and related in all sorts of ways, but there is a distinction. You could have a world and we are going to have this world where you have like GP five level systems and beyond that could like answer any complex request. Um, unless it requires some. Like, if you say like, uh, you know, give me a list of all the PhDs in New York city who, I don't know, have thought about search before. And even though this, this super intelligence is going to be like, I can't find it on Google, right. Which is kind of crazy. Like we're literally going to have like super intelligences that are using Google. And so if Google can't find them information, there's nothing they could do. They can't find it. So, but if you also have a super knowledge system where it's like, you know, I'm calling this term super knowledge where you just get whatever knowledge you want, then you can pair with a super intelligence system. And then the super intelligence can, we'll never. Be blocked by lack of knowledge.Alessio [00:17:23]: Yeah. You told me this, uh, when we had lunch, I forget how it came out, but we were talking about AGI and whatnot. And you were like, even AGI is going to need search. Yeah.Swyx [00:17:32]: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Um, so we're actually referencing a blog post that you wrote super intelligence and super knowledge. Uh, so I would refer people to that. And this is actually a discussion we've had on the podcast a couple of times. Um, there's so much of model weights that are just memorizing facts. Some of the, some of those might be outdated. Some of them are incomplete or not. Yeah. So like you just need search. So I do wonder, like, is there a maximum language model size that will be the intelligence layer and then the rest is just search, right? Like maybe we should just always use search. And then that sort of workhorse model is just like, and it like, like, like one B or three B parameter model that just drives everything. Yes.Will [00:18:13]: I believe this is a much more optimal system to have a smaller LM. That's really just like an intelligence module. And it makes a call to a search. Tool that's way more efficient because if, okay, I mean the, the opposite of that would be like the LM is so big that can memorize the whole web. That would be like way, but you know, it's not practical at all. I don't, it's not possible to train that at least right now. And Carpathy has actually written about this, how like he could, he could see models moving more and more towards like intelligence modules using various tools. Yeah.Swyx [00:18:39]: So for listeners, that's the, that was him on the no priors podcast. And for us, we talked about this and the, on the Shin Yu and Harrison chase podcasts. I'm doing search in my head. I told you 30 million results. I forgot about our neural link integration. Self-hosted exit.Will [00:18:54]: Yeah. Yeah. No, I do see that that is a much more, much more efficient world. Yeah. I mean, you could also have GB four level systems calling search, but it's just because of the cost of inference. It's just better to have a very efficient search tool and a very efficient LM and they're built for different things. Yeah.Swyx [00:19:09]: I'm just kind of curious. Like it is still something so audacious that I don't want to elide, which is you're, you're, you're building a search engine. Where do you start? How do you, like, are there any reference papers or implementation? That would really influence your thinking, anything like that? Because I don't even know where to start apart from just crawl a bunch of s**t, but there's gotta be more insight than that.Will [00:19:28]: I mean, yeah, there's more insight, but I'm always surprised by like, if you have a group of people who are really focused on solving a problem, um, with the tools today, like there's some in, in software, like there are all sorts of creative solutions that just haven't been thought of before, particularly in the information retrieval field. Yeah. I think a lot of the techniques are just very old, frankly. Like I know how Google and Bing work and. They're just not using new methods. There are all sorts of reasons for that. Like one, like Google has to be comprehensive over the web. So they're, and they have to return in 400 milliseconds. And those two things combined means they are kind of limit and it can't cost too much. They're kind of limited in, uh, what kinds of algorithms they could even deploy at scale. So they end up using like a limited keyword based algorithm. Also like Google was built in a time where like in, you know, in 1998, where we didn't have LMS, we didn't have embeddings. And so they never thought to build those things. And so now they have this like gigantic system that is built on old technology. Yeah. And so a lot of the information retrieval field we found just like thinks in terms of that framework. Yeah. Whereas we came in as like newcomers just thinking like, okay, there here's GB three. It's magical. Obviously we're going to build search that is using that technology. And we never even thought about using keywords really ever. Uh, like we were neural all the way we're building an end to end neural search engine. And just that whole framing just makes us ask different questions, like pursue different lines of work. And there's just a lot of low hanging fruit because no one else is thinking about it. We're just on the frontier of neural search. We just are, um, for, for at web scale, um, because there's just not a lot of people thinking that way about it.Swyx [00:20:57]: Yeah. Maybe let's spell this out since, uh, we're already on this topic, elephants in the room are Perplexity and SearchGPT. That's the, I think that it's all, it's no longer called SearchGPT. I think they call it ChatGPT Search. How would you contrast your approaches to them based on what we know of how they work and yeah, just any, anything in that, in that area? Yeah.Will [00:21:15]: So these systems, there are a few of them now, uh, they basically rely on like traditional search engines like Google or Bing, and then they combine them with like LLMs at the end to, you know, output some power graphics, uh, answering your question. So they like search GPT perplexity. I think they have their own crawlers. No. So there's this important distinction between like having your own search system and like having your own cache of the web. Like for example, so you could create, you could crawl a bunch of the web. Imagine you crawl a hundred billion URLs, and then you create a key value store of like mapping from URL to the document that is technically called an index, but it's not a search algorithm. So then to actually like, when you make a query to search GPT, for example, what is it actually doing it? Let's say it's, it's, it could, it's using the Bing API, uh, getting a list of results and then it could go, it has this cache of like all the contents of those results and then could like bring in the cache, like the index cache, but it's not actually like, it's not like they've built a search engine from scratch over, you know, hundreds of billions of pages. It's like, does that distinction clear? It's like, yeah, you could have like a mapping from URL to documents, but then rely on traditional search engines to actually get the list of results because it's a very hard problem to take. It's not hard. It's not hard to use DynamoDB and, and, and map URLs to documents. It's a very hard problem to take a hundred billion or more documents and given a query, like instantly get the list of results that match. That's a much harder problem that very few entities on, in, on the planet have done. Like there's Google, there's Bing, uh, you know, there's Yandex, but you know, there are not that many companies that are, that are crazy enough to actually build their search engine from scratch when you could just use traditional search APIs.Alessio [00:22:43]: So Google had PageRank as like the big thing. Is there a LLM equivalent or like any. Stuff that you're working on that you want to highlight?Will [00:22:51]: The link prediction objective can be seen as like a neural PageRank because what you're doing is you're predicting the links people share. And so if everyone is sharing some Paul Graham essay about fundraising, then like our model is more likely to predict it. So like inherent in our training objective is this, uh, a sense of like high canonicity and like high quality, but it's more powerful than PageRank. It's strictly more powerful because people might refer to that Paul Graham fundraising essay in like a thousand different ways. And so our model learns all the different ways. That someone refers that Paul Graham, I say, while also learning how important that Paul Graham essay is. Um, so it's like, it's like PageRank on steroids kind of thing. Yeah.Alessio [00:23:26]: I think to me, that's the most interesting thing about search today, like with Google and whatnot, it's like, it's mostly like domain authority. So like if you get back playing, like if you search any AI term, you get this like SEO slop websites with like a bunch of things in them. So this is interesting, but then how do you think about more timeless maybe content? So if you think about, yeah. You know, maybe the founder mode essay, right. It gets shared by like a lot of people, but then you might have a lot of other essays that are also good, but they just don't really get a lot of traction. Even though maybe the people that share them are high quality. How do you kind of solve that thing when you don't have the people authority, so to speak of who's sharing, whether or not they're worth kind of like bumping up? Yeah.Will [00:24:10]: I mean, you do have a lot of control over the training data, so you could like make sure that the training data contains like high quality sources so that, okay. Like if you, if you're. Training data, I mean, it's very similar to like language, language model training. Like if you train on like a bunch of crap, your prediction will be crap. Our model will match the training distribution is trained on. And so we could like, there are lots of ways to tweak the training data to refer to high quality content that we want. Yeah. I would say also this, like this slop that is returned by, by traditional search engines, like Google and Bing, you have the slop is then, uh, transferred into the, these LLMs in like a search GBT or, you know, our other systems like that. Like if slop comes in, slop will go out. And so, yeah, that's another answer to how we're different is like, we're not like traditional search engines. We want to give like the highest quality results and like have full control over whatever you want. If you don't want slop, you get that. And then if you put an LM on top of that, which our customers do, then you just get higher quality results or high quality output.Alessio [00:25:06]: And I use Excel search very often and it's very good. Especially.Swyx [00:25:09]: Wave uses it too.Alessio [00:25:10]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like the slop is everywhere, especially when it comes to AI, when it comes to investment. When it comes to all of these things for like, it's valuable to be at the top. And this problem is only going to get worse because. Yeah, no, it's totally. What else is in the toolkit? So you have search API, you have ExaSearch, kind of like the web version. Now you have the list builder. I think you also have web scraping. Maybe just touch on that. Like, I guess maybe people, they want to search and then they want to scrape. Right. So is that kind of the use case that people have? Yeah.Will [00:25:41]: A lot of our customers, they don't just want, because they're building AI applications on top of Exa, they don't just want a list of URLs. They actually want. Like the full content, like cleans, parsed. Markdown. Markdown, maybe chunked, whatever they want, we'll give it to them. And so that's been like huge for customers. Just like getting the URLs and instantly getting the content for each URL is like, and you can do this for 10 or 100 or 1,000 URLs, wherever you want. That's very powerful.Swyx [00:26:05]: Yeah. I think this is the first thing I asked you for when I tried using Exa.Will [00:26:09]: Funny story is like when I built the first version of Exa, it's like, we just happened to store the content. Yes. Like the first 1,024 tokens. Because I just kind of like kept it because I thought of, you know, I don't know why. Really for debugging purposes. And so then when people started asking for content, it was actually pretty easy to serve it. But then, and then we did that, like Exa took off. So the computer's content was so useful. So that was kind of cool.Swyx [00:26:30]: It is. I would say there are other players like Gina, I think is in this space. Firecrawl is in this space. There's a bunch of scraper companies. And obviously scraper is just one part of your stack, but you might as well offer it since you already do it.Will [00:26:43]: Yeah, it makes sense. It's just easy to have an all-in-one solution. And like. We are, you know, building the best scraper in the world. So scraping is a hard problem and it's easy to get like, you know, a good scraper. It's very hard to get a great scraper and it's super hard to get a perfect scraper. So like, and, and scraping really matters to people. Do you have a perfect scraper? Not yet. Okay.Swyx [00:27:05]: The web is increasingly closing to the bots and the scrapers, Twitter, Reddit, Quora, Stack Overflow. I don't know what else. How are you dealing with that? How are you navigating those things? Like, you know. You know, opening your eyes, like just paying them money.Will [00:27:19]: Yeah, no, I mean, I think it definitely makes it harder for search engines. One response is just that there's so much value in the long tail of sites that are open. Okay. Um, and just like, even just searching over those well gets you most of the value. But I mean, there, there is definitely a lot of content that is increasingly not unavailable. And so you could get through that through data partnerships. The bigger we get as a company, the more, the easier it is to just like, uh, make partnerships. But I, I mean, I do see the world as like the future where the. The data, the, the data producers, the content creators will make partnerships with the entities that find that data.Alessio [00:27:53]: Any other fun use case that maybe people are not thinking about? Yeah.Will [00:27:58]: Oh, I mean, uh, there are so many customers. Yeah. What are people doing on AXA? Well, I think dating is a really interesting, uh, application of search that is completely underserved because there's a lot of profiles on the web and a lot of people who want to find love and that I'll use it. They give me. Like, you know, age boundaries, you know, education level location. Yeah. I mean, you want to, what, what do you want to do with data? You want to find like a partner who matches this education level, who like, you know, maybe has written about these types of topics before. Like if you could get a list of all the people like that, like, I think you will unblock a lot of people. I mean, there, I mean, I think this is a very Silicon Valley view of dating for sure. And I'm, I'm well aware of that, but it's just an interesting application of like, you know, I would love to meet like an intellectual partner, um, who like shares a lot of ideas. Yeah. Like if you could do that through better search and yeah.Swyx [00:28:48]: But what is it with Jeff? Jeff has already set me up with a few people. So like Jeff, I think it's my personal exit.Will [00:28:55]: my mom's actually a matchmaker and has got a lot of married. Yeah. No kidding. Yeah. Yeah. Search is built into the book. It's in your jeans. Yeah. Yeah.Swyx [00:29:02]: Yeah. Other than dating, like I know you're having quite some success in colleges. I would just love to map out some more use cases so that our listeners can just use those examples to think about use cases for XR, right? Because it's such a general technology that it's hard to. Uh, really pin down, like, what should I use it for and what kind of products can I build with it?Will [00:29:20]: Yeah, sure. So, I mean, there are so many applications of XR and we have, you know, many, many companies using us for very diverse range of use cases, but I'll just highlight some interesting ones. Like one customer, a big customer is using us to, um, basically build like a, a writing assistant for students who want to write, uh, research papers. And basically like XR will search for, uh, like a list of research papers related to what the student is writing. And then this product has. Has like an LLM that like summarizes the papers to basically it's like a next word prediction, but in, uh, you know, prompted by like, you know, 20 research papers that X has returned. It's like literally just doing their homework for them. Yeah. Yeah. the key point is like, it's, it's, uh, you know, it's, it's, you know, research is, is a really hard thing to do and you need like high quality content as input.Swyx [00:30:08]: Oh, so we've had illicit on the podcast. I think it's pretty similar. Uh, they, they do focus pretty much on just, just research papers and, and that research. Basically, I think dating, uh, research, like I just wanted to like spell out more things, like just the big verticals.Will [00:30:23]: Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, there, there are so many use cases. So finance we talked about, yeah. I mean, one big vertical is just finding a list of companies, uh, so it's useful for VCs, like you said, who want to find like a list of competitors to a specific company they're investigating or just a list of companies in some field. Like, uh, there was one VC that told me that him and his team, like we're using XR for like eight hours straight. Like, like that. For many days on end, just like, like, uh, doing like lots of different queries of different types, like, oh, like all the companies in AI for law or, uh, all the companies for AI for, uh, construction and just like getting lists of things because you just can't find this information with, with traditional search engines. And then, you know, finding companies is also useful for, for selling. If you want to find, you know, like if we want to find a list of, uh, writing assistants to sell to, then we can just, we just use XR ourselves to find that is actually how we found a lot of our customers. Ooh, you can find your own customers using XR. Oh my God. I, in the spirit of. Uh, using XR to bolster XR, like recruiting is really helpful. It is really great use case of XR, um, because we can just get like a list of, you know, people who thought about search and just get like a long list and then, you know, reach out to those people.Swyx [00:31:29]: When you say thought about, are you, are you thinking LinkedIn, Twitter, or are you thinking just blogs?Will [00:31:33]: Or they've written, I mean, it's pretty general. So in that case, like ideally XR would return like the, the really blogs written by people who have just. So if I don't blog, I don't show up to XR, right? Like I have to blog. well, I mean, you could show up. That's like an incentive for people to blog.Swyx [00:31:47]: Well, if you've written about, uh, search in on Twitter and we, we do, we do index a bunch of tweets and then we, we should be able to service that. Yeah. Um, I mean, this is something I tell people, like you have to make yourself discoverable to the web, uh, you know, it's called learning in public, but like, it's even more imperative now because otherwise you don't exist at all.Will [00:32:07]: Yeah, no, no, this is a huge, uh, thing, which is like search engines completely influence. They have downstream effects. They influence the internet itself. They influence what people. Choose to create. And so Google, because they're a keyword based search engine, people like kind of like keyword stuff. Yeah. They're, they're, they're incentivized to create things that just match a lot of keywords, which is not very high quality. Uh, whereas XR is a search algorithm that, uh, optimizes for like high quality and actually like matching what you mean. And so people are incentivized to create content that is high quality, that like the create content that they know will be found by the right person. So like, you know, if I am a search researcher and I want to be found. By XR, I should blog about search and all the things I'm building because, because now we have a search engine like XR that's powerful enough to find them. And so the search engine will influence like the downstream internet in all sorts of amazing ways. Yeah. Uh, whatever the search engine optimizes for is what the internet looks like. Yeah.Swyx [00:33:01]: Are you familiar with the term? McLuhanism? No, it's not. Uh, it's this concept that, uh, like first we shape tools and then the tools shape us. Okay. Yeah. Uh, so there's like this reflexive connection between the things we search for and the things that get searched. Yes. So like once you change the tool. The tool that searches the, the, the things that get searched also change. Yes.Will [00:33:18]: I mean, there was a clear example of that with 30 years of Google. Yeah, exactly. Google has basically trained us to think of search and Google has Google is search like in people's heads. Right. It's one, uh, hard part about XR is like, uh, ripping people away from that notion of search and expanding their sense of what search could be. Because like when people think search, they think like a few keywords, or at least they used to, they think of a few keywords and that's it. They don't think to make these like really complex paragraph long requests for information and get a perfect list. ChatGPT was an interesting like thing that expanded people's understanding of search because you start using ChatGPT for a few hours and you go back to Google and you like paste in your code and Google just doesn't work and you're like, oh, wait, it, Google doesn't do work that way. So like ChatGPT expanded our understanding of what search can be. And I think XR is, uh, is part of that. We want to expand people's notion, like, Hey, you could actually get whatever you want. Yeah.Alessio [00:34:06]: I search on XR right now, people writing about learning in public. I was like, is it gonna come out with Alessio? Am I, am I there? You're not because. Bro. It's. So, no, it's, it's so about, because it thinks about learning, like in public, like public schools and like focuses more on that. You know, it's like how, when there are like these highly overlapping things, like this is like a good result based on the query, you know, but like, how do I get to Alessio? Right. So if you're like in these subcultures, I don't think this would work in Google well either, you know, but I, I don't know if you have any learnings.Swyx [00:34:40]: No, I'm the first result on Google.Alessio [00:34:42]: People writing about learning. In public, you're not first result anymore, I guess.Swyx [00:34:48]: Just type learning public in Google.Alessio [00:34:49]: Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But this is also like, this is in Google, it doesn't work either. That's what I'm saying. It's like how, when you have like a movement.Will [00:34:56]: There's confusion about the, like what you mean, like your intention is a little, uh. Yeah.Alessio [00:35:00]: It's like, yeah, I'm using, I'm using a term that like I didn't invent, but I'm kind of taking over, but like, they're just so much about that term already that it's hard to overcome. If that makes sense, because public schools is like, well, it's, it's hard to overcome.Will [00:35:14]: Public schools, you know, so there's the right solution to this, which is to specify more clearly what you mean. And I'm not expecting you to do that, but so the, the right interface to search is actually an LLM.Swyx [00:35:25]: Like you should be talking to an LLM about what you want and the LLM translates its knowledge of you or knowledge of what people usually mean into a query that excellent uses, which you have called auto prompts, right?Will [00:35:35]: Or, yeah, but it's like a very light version of that. And really it's just basically the right answer is it's the wrong interface and like very soon interface to search and really to everything will be LLM. And the LLM just has a full knowledge of you, right? So we're kind of building for that world. We're skating to where the puck is going to be. And so since we're moving to a world where like LLMs are interfaced to everything, you should build a search engine that can handle complex LLM queries, queries that come from LLMs. Because you're probably too lazy, I'm too lazy too, to write like a whole paragraph explaining, okay, this is what I mean by this word. But an LLM is not lazy. And so like the LLM will spit out like a paragraph or more explaining exactly what it wants. You need a search engine that can handle that. Traditional search engines like Google or Bing, they're actually... Designed for humans typing keywords. If you give a paragraph to Google or Bing, they just completely fail. And so Exa can handle paragraphs and we want to be able to handle it more and more until it's like perfect.Alessio [00:36:24]: What about opinions? Do you have lists? When you think about the list product, do you think about just finding entries? Do you think about ranking entries? I'll give you a dumb example. So on Lindy, I've been building the spot that every week gives me like the top fantasy football waiver pickups. But every website is like different opinions. I'm like, you should pick up. These five players, these five players. When you're making lists, do you want to be kind of like also ranking and like telling people what's best? Or like, are you mostly focused on just surfacing information?Will [00:36:56]: There's a really good distinction between filtering to like things that match your query and then ranking based on like what is like your preferences. And ranking is like filtering is objective. It's like, does this document match what you asked for? Whereas ranking is more subjective. It's like, what is the best? Well, it depends what you mean by best, right? So first, first table stakes is let's get the filtering into a perfect place where you actually like every document matches what you asked for. No surgeon can do that today. And then ranking, you know, there are all sorts of interesting ways to do that where like you've maybe for, you know, have the user like specify more clearly what they mean by best. You could do it. And if the user doesn't specify, you do your best, you do your best based on what people typically mean by best. But ideally, like the user can specify, oh, when I mean best, I actually mean ranked by the, you know, the number of people who visited that site. Let's say is, is one example ranking or, oh, what I mean by best, let's say you're listing companies. What I mean by best is like the ones that have, uh, you know, have the most employees or something like that. Like there are all sorts of ways to rank a list of results that are not captured by something as subjective as best. Yeah. Yeah.Alessio [00:38:00]: I mean, it's like, who are the best NBA players in the history? It's like everybody has their own. Right.Will [00:38:06]: Right. But I mean, the, the, the search engine should definitely like, even if you don't specify it, it should do as good of a job as possible. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a new topic to people because we're not used to a search engine that can handle like a very complex ranking system. Like you think to type in best basketball players and not something more specific because you know, that's the only thing Google could handle. But if Google could handle like, oh, basketball players ranked by like number of shots scored on average per game, then you would do that. But you know, they can't do that. So.Swyx [00:38:32]: Yeah. That's fascinating. So you haven't used the word agents, but you're kind of building a search agent. Do you believe that that is agentic in feature? Do you think that term is distracting?Will [00:38:42]: I think it's a good term. I do think everything will eventually become agentic. And so then the term will lose power, but yes, like what we're building is agentic it in a sense that it takes actions. It decides when to go deeper into something, it has a loop, right? It feels different from traditional search, which is like an algorithm, not an agent. Ours is a combination of an algorithm and an agent.Swyx [00:39:05]: I think my reflection from seeing this in the coding space where there's basically sort of classic. Framework for thinking about this stuff is the self-driving levels of autonomy, right? Level one to five, typically the level five ones all failed because there's full autonomy and we're not, we're not there yet. And people like control. People like to be in the loop. So the, the, the level ones was co-pilot first and now it's like cursor and whatever. So I feel like if it's too agentic, it's too magical, like, like a, like a one shot, I stick a, stick a paragraph into the text box and then it spits it back to me. It might feel like I'm too disconnected from the process and I don't trust it. As opposed to something where I'm more intimately involved with the research product. I see. So like, uh, wait, so the earlier versions are, so if trying to stick to the example of the basketball thing, like best basketball player, but instead of best, you, you actually get to customize it with like, whatever the metric is that you, you guys care about. Yeah. I'm still not a basketballer, but, uh, but, but, you know, like, like B people like to be in my, my thesis is that agents level five agents failed because people like to. To kind of have drive assist rather than full self-driving.Will [00:40:15]: I mean, a lot of this has to do with how good agents are. Like at some point, if agents for coding are better than humans at all tests and then humans block, yeah, we're not there yet.Swyx [00:40:25]: So like in a world where we're not there yet, what you're pitching us is like, you're, you're kind of saying you're going all the way there. Like I kind of, I think all one is also very full, full self-driving. You don't get to see the plan. You don't get to affect the plan yet. You just fire off a query and then it goes away for a couple of minutes and comes back. Right. Which is effectively what you're saying you're going to do too. And you think there's.Will [00:40:42]: There's a, there's an in-between. I saw. Okay. So in building this product, we're exploring new interfaces because what does it mean to kick off a search that goes and takes 10 minutes? Like, is that a good interface? Because what if the search is actually wrong or it's not exactly, exactly specified to what you mean, which is why you get previews. Yeah. You get previews. So it is iterative, but ultimately once you've specified exactly what you mean, then you kind of do just want to kick off a batch job. Right. So perhaps what you're getting at is like, uh, there's this barrier with agents where you have to like explain the full context of what you mean, and a lot of failure modes happen when you have, when you don't. Yeah. There's failure modes from the agent, just not being smart enough. And then there's failure modes from the agent, not understanding exactly what you mean. And there's a lot of context that is shared between humans that is like lost between like humans and, and this like new creature.Alessio [00:41:32]: Yeah. Yeah. Because people don't know what's going on. I mean, to me, the best example of like system prompts is like, why are you writing? You're a helpful assistant. Like. Of course you should be an awful, but people don't yet know, like, can I assume that, you know, that, you know, it's like, why did the, and now people write, oh, you're a very smart software engineer, but like, you never made, you never make mistakes. Like, were you going to try and make mistakes before? So I think people don't yet have an understanding, like with, with driving people know what good driving is. It's like, don't crash, stay within kind of like a certain speed range. It's like, follow the directions. It's like, I don't really have to explain all of those things. I hope. But with. AI and like models and like search, people are like, okay, what do you actually know? What are like your assumptions about how search, how you're going to do search? And like, can I trust it? You know, can I influence it? So I think that's kind of the, the middle ground, like before you go ahead and like do all the search, it's like, can I see how you're doing it? And then maybe help show your work kind of like, yeah, steer you. Yeah. Yeah.Will [00:42:32]: No, I mean, yeah. Sure. Saying, even if you've crafted a great system prompt, you want to be part of the process itself. Uh, because the system prompt doesn't, it doesn't capture everything. Right. So yeah. A system prompt is like, you get to choose the person you work with. It's like, oh, like I want, I want a software engineer who thinks this way about code. But then even once you've chosen that person, you can't just give them a high level command and they go do it perfectly. You have to be part of that process. So yeah, I agree.Swyx [00:42:58]: Just a side note for my system, my favorite system, prompt programming anecdote now is the Apple intelligence system prompt that someone, someone's a prompt injected it and seen it. And like the Apple. Intelligence has the words, like, please don't, don't hallucinate. And it's like, of course we don't want you to hallucinate. Right. Like, so it's exactly that, that what you're talking about, like we should train this behavior into the model, but somehow we still feel the need to inject into the prompt. And I still don't even think that we are very scientific about it. Like it, I think it's almost like cargo culting. Like we have this like magical, like turn around three times, throw salt over your shoulder before you do something. And like, it worked the last time. So let's just do it the same time now. And like, we do, there's no science to this.Will [00:43:35]: I do think a lot of these problems might be ironed out in future versions. Right. So, and like, they might, they might hide the details from you. So it's like, they actually, all of them have a system prompt. That's like, you are a helpful assistant. You don't actually have to include it, even though it might actually be the way they've implemented in the backend. It should be done in RLE AF.Swyx [00:43:52]: Okay. Uh, one question I was just kind of curious about this episode is I'm going to try to frame this in terms of this, the general AI search wars, you know, you're, you're one player in that, um, there's perplexity, chat, GPT, search, and Google, but there's also like the B2B side, uh, we had. Drew Houston from Dropbox on, and he's competing with Glean, who've, uh, we've also had DD from, from Glean on, is there an appetite for Exa for my company's documents?Will [00:44:19]: There is appetite, but I think we have to be disciplined, focused, disciplined. I mean, we're already taking on like perfect web search, which is a lot. Um, but I mean, ultimately we want to build a perfect search engine, which definitely for a lot of queries involves your, your personal information, your company's information. And so, yeah, I mean, the grandest vision of Exa is perfect search really over everything, every domain, you know, we're going to have an Exa satellite, uh, because, because satellites can gather information that, uh, is not available publicly. Uh, gotcha. Yeah.Alessio [00:44:51]: Can we talk about AGI? We never, we never talk about AGI, but you had, uh, this whole tweet about, oh, one being the biggest kind of like AI step function towards it. Why does it feel so important to you? I know there's kind of like always criticism and saying, Hey, it's not the smartest son is better. It's like, blah, blah, blah. What? You choose C. So you say, this is what Ilias see or Sam see what they will see.Will [00:45:13]: I've just, I've just, you know, been connecting the dots. I mean, this was the key thing that a bunch of labs were working on, which is like, can you create a reward signal? Can you teach yourself based on a reward signal? Whether you're, if you're trying to learn coding or math, if you could have one model say, uh, be a grading system that says like you have successfully solved this programming assessment and then one model, like be the generative system. That's like, here are a bunch of programming assessments. You could train on that. It's basically whenever you could create a reward signal for some task, you could just generate a bunch of tasks for yourself. See that like, oh, on two of these thousand, you did well. And then you just train on that data. It's basically like, I mean, creating your own data for yourself and like, you know, all the labs working on that opening, I built the most impressive product doing that. And it's just very, it's very easy now to see how that could like scale to just solving, like, like solving programming or solving mathematics, which sounds crazy, but everything about our world right now is crazy.Alessio [00:46:07]: Um, and so I think if you remove that whole, like, oh, that's impossible, and you just think really clearly about like, what's now possible with like what, what they've done with O1, it's easy to see how that scales. How do you think about older GPT models then? Should people still work on them? You know, if like, obviously they just had the new Haiku, like, is it even worth spending time, like making these models better versus just, you know, Sam talked about O2 at that day. So obviously they're, they're spending a lot of time in it, but then you have maybe. The GPU poor, which are still working on making Lama good. Uh, and then you have the follower labs that do not have an O1 like model out yet. Yeah.Will [00:46:47]: This kind of gets into like, uh, what will the ecosystem of, of models be like in the future? And is there room is, is everything just gonna be O1 like models? I think, well, I mean, there's definitely a question of like inference speed and if certain things like O1 takes a long time, because that's the thing. Well, I mean, O1 is, is two things. It's like one it's it's use it's bootstrapping itself. It's teaching itself. And so the base model is smarter. But then it also has this like inference time compute where it could like spend like many minutes or many hours thinking. And so even the base model, which is also fast, it doesn't have to take minutes. It could take is, is better, smarter. I believe all models will be trained with this paradigm. Like you'll want to train on the best data, but there will be many different size models from different, very many different like companies, I believe. Yeah. Because like, I don't, yeah, I mean, it's hard, hard to predict, but I don't think opening eye is going to dominate like every possible LLM for every possible. Use case. I think for a lot of things, like you just want the fastest model and that might not involve O1 methods at all.Swyx [00:47:42]: I would say if you were to take the exit being O1 for search, literally, you really need to prioritize search trajectories, like almost maybe paying a bunch of grad students to go research things. And then you kind of track what they search and what the sequence of searching is, because it seems like that is the gold mine here, like the chain of thought or the thinking trajectory. Yeah.Will [00:48:05]: When it comes to search, I've always been skeptical. I've always been skeptical of human labeled data. Okay. Yeah, please. We tried something at our company at Exa recently where me and a bunch of engineers on the team like labeled a bunch of queries and it was really hard. Like, you know, you have all these niche queries and you're looking at a bunch of results and you're trying to identify which is matched to query. It's talking about, you know, the intricacies of like some biological experiment or something. I have no idea. Like, I don't know what matches and what, what labelers like me tend to do is just match by keyword. I'm like, oh, I don't know. Oh, like this document matches a bunch of keywords, so it must be good. But then you're actually completely missing the meaning of the document. Whereas an LLM like GB4 is really good at labeling. And so I actually think like you just we get by, which we are right now doing using like LLM

Shaun Clowes is the chief product officer at Confluent and former CPO at Salesforce's MuleSoft and at Metromile. He was also the first head of growth at Atlassian, where he led product for Jira Agile and built the first-ever B2B growth team. In our conversation, we discuss:• Why most PMs are bad, and how to fix this• Why great AI products are all about the data• Why he changed his mind about being data-driven• How to build your B2B growth team• How to choose your next career stop• Much more—Brought to you by:• Enterpret—Transform customer feedback into product growth• BuildBetter—AI for product teams• Wix Studio—The web creation platform built for agencies—Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/why-great-ai-products-are-all-about-the-data-shaun-clowes—Where to find Shaun Clowes:• X: https://x.com/ShaunMClowes• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shaun-clowes-80795014/• Website: https://shaunclowes.com/about-shaun• Reforge: https://www.reforge.com/profiles/shaun-clowes—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Shaun's background(05:08) The state of product management(09:33) Becoming a 10x product manager(13:23) Specific ways to leverage AI in product management(17:15) Feedback rivers(19:20) AI's impact on data management(24:35) The future of enterprise businesses with AI(35:41) Data-driven decision-making(45:50) Building effective growth teams(50:18) The evolution of product-led growth(56:16) Career insights and decision-making(01:07:45) Failure corner(01:12:32) Final thoughts and lightning round—Referenced:• Steve Blank's website: https://steveblank.com/• Getting Out of the Building. 2 Minutes to See Why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbMgWr1YVfs• OpenAI: https://openai.com/• Claude: https://claude.ai/• Sachin Rekhi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sachinrekhi/• Video: Building Your Product Intuition with Feedback Rivers: https://www.sachinrekhi.com/video-building-your-product-intuition-with-feedback-rivers• Confluent: https://www.confluent.io• Workday: https://www.workday.com/• Lenny and Friends Summit: https://lennyssummit.com/• A conversation with OpenAI's CPO Kevin Weil, Anthropic's CPO Mike Krieger, and Sarah Guo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxkvVZua28k• Anthropic: https://www.anthropic.com/• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/• Atlassian: https://www.atlassian.com/• Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira• Ashby: https://www.ashbyhq.com/• Occam's razor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor• Breaking the rules of growth: Why Shopify bans KPIs, optimizes for churn, prioritizes intuition, and builds toward a 100-year vision | Archie Abrams (VP Product, Head of Growth at Shopify): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/shopifys-growth-archie-abrams• Charlie Munger quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/11903426-show-me-the-incentive-and-i-ll-show-you-the-outcome• Elena Verna on how B2B growth is changing, product-led growth, product-led sales, why you should go freemium not trial, what features to make free, and much more: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/elena-verna-on-why-every-company• The ultimate guide to product-led sales | Elena Verna: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-product-led• Metromile: https://www.metromile.com/• Tom Kennedy on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-kennedy-37356b2b/• Building Wiz: the fastest-growing startup in history | Raaz Herzberg (CMO and VP Product Strategy): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-wiz-raaz-herzberg• Wiz: https://www.wiz.io• Colin Powell's 40-70 rule: https://www.42courses.com/blog/home/2019/12/10/colin-powells-40-70-rule• Detroiters on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80165019• Glean: https://www.glean.com/• Radical Candor: Be a Kick-Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity: https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Candor-Kick-Ass-Without-Humanity/dp/1250103509• Listen: Five Simple Tools to Meet Your Everyday Parenting Challenges: https://www.amazon.com/Listen-Simple-Everyday-Parenting-Challenges/dp/0997459301• Empress Falls Canyon and abseiling: https://bmac.com.au/blue-mountains-canyoning/empress-falls-canyon-and-abseiling—Recommended books:• The Lean Startup: How Today's Entrepreneurs Use Continuous Innovation to Create Radically Successful Businesses: https://www.amazon.com/Lean-Startup-Entrepreneurs-Continuous-Innovation/dp/0307887898• Inspired: How to Create Products Customers Love: https://www.amazon.com/Inspired-Create-Products-Customers-Love/dp/0981690408—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Aaron and Dr. Clardy bring you a few ups and upsie daisies from Kentucky politicos on the national stage… then we chat with Jimmy Earley, the program director of Glean Kentucky, a nonprofit focused on tackling the twin challenges of food waste and food insecurity in the bluegrass –- then we close out with a call to action in support of our campaign for a caregiver voting fix for Kentucky. Also, WELCOME TO THE WORLD, GAIA PREECE!!! #ColonelsOfTruth NEWS OF THE WEAK:Governor Andy Beshear elected chair of DGA https://kentuckylantern.com/briefs/democratic-governors-pick-beshear-as-2026-chair-elect/ Rep. Brett Gutherie to Chair Energy & Commercehttps://www.kentucky.com/news/politics-government/article296850719.html https://kentuckylantern.com/2024/12/10/dc/mcconnell-falls-while-at-u-s-capitol-but-is-reported-to-be-fine/ INTERVIEW: Jimmy Earley, Glean Kentuckyhttps://gleanky.org/https://www.facebook.com/gleanKY CALL TO ACTION: Increase early voting for KY caregivers!https://actionnetwork.org/letters/early-voting-for-caregivers #ProgressKentucky - #ColonelsOfTruth Join us! http://progressky.org/Support us! https://secure.actblue.com/donate/progressky Live Wednesdays at 7pm on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/progressky/live/and on YouTube http://bit.ly/progress_ky Listen as a podcast right here, or wherever you get your pods: https://tr.ee/PsdiXaFylK Facebook - @progresskyInstagram - @progress_kyTwitter - @progress_ky Episode 190 was kinda produced by Aaron Theme music from the amazing Nato - hear more at http://www.NatoSongs.com Logo and some graphic design provided by Couchfire Media

About the Guest:Nathan Brand is a seasoned culinary expert and entrepreneur known for his transformative contributions to the restaurant industry. As a former chef and partner at the renowned Timber! restaurant, Nathan has established himself as a figure of innovation in modern dining. Currently, he embarks on a new business venture, launching a retail food and wine shop focusing on charcuterie, cheeses, wines, and gourmet products. His commitment to sourcing quality ingredients and offering unique gastronomic experiences underscores his reputation as a pioneer in the local culinary landscape.Episode Summary:Join Colin Johnson as he sits down with Nathan Brand for an engaging discussion about culinary passions, entrepreneurship, and creating a balance between work and family. In this enlightening episode, Nathan returns to the podcast to share insights about his new venture—a retail food and wine store that aims to bring gourmet experiences to Johnson City. Throughout the conversation, Nathan reveals his journey from being a partner at Timber to stepping into the world of retail with a focus on specialized, regional products like Benton's ham, unique cheeses, and natural wines, catering to discerning palates.In exploring his motivations, Nathan speaks about his new business as a returning guest on the Colin and Carly Group show. He discusses the inspiration behind his concept, touching upon the scarcity of certain high-quality products in Johnson City and his desire to make gourmet flavors accessible to the local community. The episode dives into how Nathan's background as a chef and restaurateur fuels his pursuit of innovation in the food industry. From sourcing premium ingredients to creating a space for culinary exploration, Nathan's new endeavor reflects his passion and expertise in delivering exceptional dining experiences.Key Takeaways:Shifting Career Paths: Nathan Brand moves from the restaurant industry to launching a food and wine retail venture.Regional Product Focus: The shop will spotlight regional gourmet products such as Benton's ham and North Carolina cheeses.Culinary Exploration: Nathan aims to make gourmet products and natural wines accessible and enjoyable for the local community.Balancing Personal and Professional Life: The discussion highlights Nathan's desire to spend more time with family while pursuing entrepreneurial dreams.Community Dynamics: Emphasis on the support and camaraderie of the Johnson City community in fostering business success.Notable Quotes:"I'm always looking at what's available here versus what I am looking for in my life.""I am more interested in American products that just don't get the props that they deserve.""Wine is always so stodgy… I'm really interested in making wine more accessible.""I wanted to spend more time with my kids… that's a huge value for me.""The more restaurants there are in an area, I think the better they all do."Glean amazing insights on entrepreneurship and culinary expertise by listening to this compelling episode. Stay tuned for more inspiring stories and expert discussions with the Colin and Carly Group podcast series!

I am thrilled to bring you my latest conversation with MP Eisen, VP of Partnerships at Glean, from the Google Cloud Marketplace Exchange! Glean is redefining the way enterprises access and utilize internal data, creating an "enterprise work assistant" that operates like an internal search engine, helping users find strategic insights, project updates, and account-specific information. MP shares Glean's journey as a Google Cloud partner, from their first Marketplace listing in 2023 to a rapid trajectory that's driven millions in consumption. Their approach? A laser focus on aligning Glean's offerings with Google's value propositions, from compute to Vertex AI's Gemini, resulting in a partnership that has rapidly scaled across multiple industry segments. Key takeaways from MP's insights: Clear Product-Partner Alignment: Ensuring Glean's product naturally drives value for Google's sellers and customers, particularly by tapping into incentives like quota retirement through Marketplace transactions. Focused Market Approach: Instead of broad targeting, Glean zeroes in on specific industries, regions, and segments, building success one focused area at a time—a strategy that's amplifying their presence within Google's ecosystem. Upstream Conversations: AI is shifting conversations to the C-suite, making executive buy-in critical for enterprise-wide adoption, with CIOs and CEOs seeing the transformational impact of AI in operations. Listen in on The Ultimate Guide to Partnering to learn.

James and Al outline the dangers of Donald Trump's loyalist cabinet appointments and the risk to the military's chain of command before welcoming journalist Michael Tomasky.  They discuss the dominance of right-wing media, the rise of podcasts, the triumph of misinformation over facts, and how to save journalism.  They also outline the catastrophic effect of identity politics, draw comparisons between the upcoming Trump administration and Viktor Orbán's Hungary, emphasize the need to pick the right battles, and explore the ability of the Senate to act as a check on its political power. Email your questions to James and Al at politicswarroom@gmail.com or tweet them to @politicon.  Make sure to include your city– we love to hear where you're from! More from James and Al: Get text updates from Politics War Room and Politicon. Watch Politics War Room & James Carville Explains on YouTube @PoliticsWarRoomOfficial CARVILLE: WINNING IS EVERYTHING, STUPID comes out on Max starting November 14th!  You can also get updates and some great behind-the-scenes content by following James on Twitter @jamescarville and his new TikTok @realjamescarville James Carville & Al Hunt have launched the Politics War Room Substack Please Support Our Sponsors: Beam: Sleep better with Beam's best-selling Dream Powder and get up to 50% off for a limited time when you go to shopbeam.com/warroom and use code: WARROOM Zbiotics: Get back into action after a night out with 15% off your first order of Zbiotics when you go to zbiotics.com/pwr and use code: PWR Glean: Visit glean.com/politics to see how Glean can help your company's employees do their best work with A.I.

Glean from the invaluable insights of Mrs. Miriam Zeitlin, renowned dating coach and kallah teacher, as she delves into the power of authenticity and the crucial role of open communication in establishing relationships. Hosted by Anna Krausz.

Nathan Raynor

Years before co-founding Glean, Arvind was an early Google employee who helped design the search algorithm. Today, Glean is building search and work assistants inside the enterprise, which is arguably an even harder problem. One of the reasons enterprise search is so difficult is that each individual at the company has different permissions and access to different documents and information, meaning that every search needs to be fully personalized. Solving this difficult ingestion and ranking problem also unlocks a key problem for AI: feeding the right context into LLMs to make them useful for your enterprise context. Arvind and his team are harnessing generative AI to synthesize, make connections, and turbo-change knowledge work. Hear Arvind's vision for what kind of work we'll do when work AI assistants reach their potential.  Hosted by: Sonya Huang and Pat Grady, Sequoia Capital  00:00 - Introduction 08:35 - Search rankings  11:30 - Retrieval-Augmented Generation 15:52 - Where enterprise search meets RAG 19:13 - How is Glean changing work?  26:08 - Agentic reasoning  31:18 - Act 2: application platform  33:36 - Developers building on Glean  35:54 - 5 years into the future  38:48 - Advice for founders

AJ Tennant is the Vice President of Sales & Success at Glean, Glean has more than 20x'd its revenue and 100x'd its user base in the just two and a half years he's been there. Before Glean, AJ had incredible runs at Slack and Facebook. At Slack, AJ helped grow revenue from $6 million to more than $1 billion.  In Today's Episode with AJ Tennant We Discuss: 1. How to Sell AI Tools in 2024: Are we still in the experimental budget phase for AI? How does selling AI tools differ to selling traditional SaaS? What are enterprises biggest concerns when it comes to adopting AI tools? What buzzwords get enterprises most excited in the sales process? Will we see a massive churn problem when the first renewal cycle for many of these AI products comes? 2. Outbound, Discounting, Closing: Is outbound dead in 2024? What does no one do that everyone should do? How does AJ approach discounting? Biggest lessons and advice? What can sales teams do to create a sense of urgency in a sales cycle? How does AJ do deal reviews and post-mortems? What is the difference between good and bad post-mortems? 3. How to Master Customer Success: What are the biggest mistakes founders make today in managing their CS teams? Should CS be compensated for upsell? How should the comp structure of CS teams change? What can be done to create a good handoff experience for the customer when handing from AE to CS? What are the most common ways CS teams break over time? 4. Hiring the Best Sales Teams: How does AJ structure the hiring process for all new sales hires? What questions does AJ always need to ask when hiring sales reps? What are clear signs of outperformers when hiring new reps? Does AJ give candidates a take-home assignment? What does he want to see from them?    

Mamoon Hamid is a General Partner @ Kleiner Perkins and one of the greatest venture investors of our time. In the past, Mamoon has led rounds in Figma, Slack, Rippling, Intercom, Glean and Box. Prior to joining Kleiner Perkins, Mamoon was a Co-Founder of Social Capital, and prior to that a Partner at U.S. Venture Partners (USVP).  In Today's Episode with Mamoon Hamid We Discuss:  1. The Greatest Venture Deal of All Time: Figma or Slack: What is Mamoon's highest returning deal? What did Mamoon see in Dylan and Figma when they had no revenue and very little user data? What compelled Mamoon to write Stewart the check with Slack? What did he not see with Slack that he should have seen? 2. Taking Control of the Great Brand in Venture: Kleiner Perkins: Is it true that Kleiner approached Mamoon and gave him the keys to the Kleiner kingdom? How did it go down? Will Kleiner go back to having multiple products, large growth funds, international funds? What does Mamoon want Kleiner to be in 5 years? What was the hardest element of the transition into Kleiner? What did Mamoon not know that he wishes he had known? 3. Becoming a Generational Defining Investor: Market, founder, product, how does Mamoon rank them 1-3? How has Mamoon changed most significantly as an investor? What does he know now that he wishes he had known when he became a VC 19 years ago? What is his biggest loss? How did it shape his mindset and go forward investing approach? 4. AI Supercycle: The Greatest Time to Invest Where does Mamoon believe the value will accrue in this wave of AI? Where are many investors spending a lot of time but Mamoon believes is not worthy of that time?  Will scaling laws continue? Have we ever seen an incumbent set spend like this incumbent class? How does that change the game for VCs?    

CEOs of publicly traded companies are often in the news talking about their new AI initiatives, but few of them have built anything with it. Drew Houston from Dropbox is different; he has spent over 400 hours coding with LLMs in the last year and is now refocusing his 2,500+ employees around this new way of working, 17 years after founding the company.Timestamps00:00 Introductions00:43 Drew's AI journey04:14 Revalidating expectations of AI08:23 Simulation in self-driving vs. knowledge work12:14 Drew's AI Engineering setup15:24 RAG vs. long context in AI models18:06 From "FileGPT" to Dropbox AI23:20 Is storage solved?26:30 Products vs Features30:48 Building trust for data access33:42 Dropbox Dash and universal search38:05 The evolution of Dropbox42:39 Building a "silicon brain" for knowledge work48:45 Open source AI and its impact51:30 "Rent, Don't Buy" for AI54:50 Staying relevant58:57 Founder Mode01:03:10 Advice for founders navigating AI01:07:36 Building and managing teams in a growing companyTranscriptAlessio [00:00:00]: Hey everyone, welcome to the Latent Space podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO at Decibel Partners, and there's no Swyx today, but I'm joined by Drew Houston of Dropbox. Welcome, Drew.Drew [00:00:14]: Thanks for having me.Alessio [00:00:15]: So we're not going to talk about the Dropbox story. We're not going to talk about the Chinatown bus and the flash drive and all that. I think you've talked enough about it. Where I want to start is you as an AI engineer. So as you know, most of our audience is engineering folks, kind of like technology leaders. You obviously run Dropbox, which is a huge company, but you also do a lot of coding. I think that's how you spend almost 400 hours, just like coding. So let's start there. What was the first interaction you had with an LLM API and when did the journey start for you?Drew [00:00:43]: Yeah. Well, I think probably all AI engineers or whatever you call an AI engineer, those people started out as engineers before that. So engineering is my first love. I mean, I grew up as a little kid. I was that kid. My first line of code was at five years old. I just really loved, I wanted to make computer games, like this whole path. That also led me into startups and eventually starting Dropbox. And then with AI specifically, I studied computer science, I got my, I did my undergrad, but I didn't do like grad level computer science. I didn't, I sort of got distracted by all the startup things, so I didn't do grad level work. But about several years ago, I made a couple of things. So one is I sort of, I knew I wanted to go from being an engineer to a founder. And then, but sort of the becoming a CEO part was sort of backed into the job. And so a couple of realizations. One is that, I mean, there's a lot of like repetitive and like manual work you have to do as an executive that is actually lends itself pretty well to automation, both for like my own convenience. And then out of interest in learning, I guess what we call like classical machine learning these days, I started really trying to wrap my head around understanding machine learning and informational retrieval more, more formally. So I'd say maybe 2016, 2017 started me writing these more successively, more elaborate scripts to like understand basic like classifiers and regression and, and again, like basic information retrieval and NLP back in those days. And there's sort of like two things that came out of that. One is techniques are super powerful. And even just like studying like old school machine learning was a pretty big inversion of the way I had learned engineering, right? You know, I started programming when everyone starts programming and you're, you're sort of the human, you're giving an algorithm to the, and spelling out to the computer how it should run it. And then machine learning, here's machine learning where it's like actually flip that, like give it sort of the answer you want and it'll figure out the algorithm, which was pretty mind bending. And it was both like pretty powerful when I would write tools, like figure out like time audits or like, where's my time going? Is this meeting a one-on-one or is it a recruiting thing or is it a product strategy thing? I started out doing that manually with my assistant, but then found that this was like a very like automatable task. And so, which also had the side effect of teaching me a lot about machine learning. But then there was this big problem, like anytime you, it was very good at like tabular structured data, but like anytime it hit, you know, the usual malformed English that humans speak, it would just like fall over. I had to kind of abandon a lot of the things that I wanted to build because like there's no way to like parse text. Like maybe it would sort of identify the part of speech in a sentence or something. But then fast forward to the LLM, I mean actually I started trying some of like this, what we would call like very small LLMs before kind of the GPT class models. And it was like super hard to get those things working. So like these 500 parameter models would just be like hallucinating and repeating and you know. So actually I'd kind of like written it off a little bit. But then the chat GPT launch and GPT-3 for sure. And then once people figured out like prompting and instruction tuning, this was sort of like November-ish 2022 like everybody else sort of that the chat GPT launch being the starting gun for the whole AI era of computing and then having API access to three and then early access to GPT-4. I was like, oh man, it's happening. And so I was literally on my honeymoon and we're like on a beach in Thailand and I'm like coding these like AI tools to automate like writing or to assist with writing and all these different use cases.Alessio [00:04:14]: You're like, I'm never going back to work. I'm going to automate all of it before I get back.Drew [00:04:17]: And I was just, you know, ever since then, I mean, I've always been like coding like prototypes and just stuff to make my life more convenient, but like escalated a lot after 22. And yeah, I spent, I checked, I think it was probably like over 400 hours this year so far coding because I had my paternity leave where I was able to work on some special projects. But yeah, it's a super important part of like my whole learning journey is like being really hands-on with these things. And I mean, it's probably not a typical recipe, but I really love to get down to the metal as far as how this stuff works.Alessio [00:04:47]: Yeah. So Swyx and I were with Sam Altman in October 22. We were like at a hack day at OpenAI and that's why we started this podcast eventually. But you did an interview with Sam like seven years ago and he asked you what's the biggest opportunity in startups and you were like machine learning and AI and you were almost like too early, right? It's like maybe seven years ago, the models weren't quite there. How should people think about revalidating like expectations of this technology? You know, I think even today people will tell you, oh, models are not really good at X because they were not good 12 months ago, but they're good today.Drew [00:05:19]: What's your project? Heuristics for thinking about that or how is, yeah, I think the way I look at it now is pretty, has evolved a lot since when I started. I mean, I think everybody intuitively starts with like, all right, let's try to predict the future or imagine like what's this great end state we're going to get to. And the tricky thing is like often those prognostications are right, but they're right in terms of direction, but not when. For example, you know, even in the early days of the internet, 90s when things were even like tech space and you know, even before like the browser or things like that, people were like, oh man, you're going to have, you know, you're going to be able to order food, get like a Snickers delivered to your house, you're going to be able to watch any movie ever created. And they were right. But they were like, you know, it took 20 years for that to actually happen. And before you got to DoorDash, you had to get, you started with like Webvan and Cosmo and before you get to Spotify, you had to do like Napster and Kazaa and LimeWire and like a bunch of like broken Britney Spears MP3s and malware. So I think the big lesson is being early is the same as being wrong. Being late is the same as being wrong. So really how do you calibrate timing? And then I think with AI, it's the same thing that people are like, oh, it's going to completely upend society and all these positive and negative ways. I think that's like most of those things are going to come true. The question is like, when is that going to happen? And then with AI specifically, I think there's also, in addition to sort of the general tech category or like jumping too fast to the future, I think that AI is particularly susceptible to that. And you look at self-driving, right? This idea of like, oh my God, you can have a self-driving car captured everybody's imaginations 10, 12 years ago. And you know, people are like, oh man, in two years, there's not going to be another year. There's not going to be a human driver on the road to be seen. It didn't work out that way, right? We're still 10, 12 years later where we're in a world where you can sort of sometimes get a Waymo in like one city on earth. Exciting, but just took a lot longer than people think. And the reason is there's a lot of engineering challenges, but then there's a lot of other like societal time constants that are hard to compress. So one thing I think you can learn from things like self-driving is they have these levels of autonomy that's a useful kind of framework in driving or these like maturity levels. People sort of skip to like level five, full autonomy, or we're going to have like an autonomous knowledge worker that's just going to take, that's going to, and then we won't need humans anymore kind of projection that that's going to take a long time. But then when you think about level one or level two, like these little assistive experiences, you know, we're seeing a lot of traction with those. So what you see really working is the level one autonomy in the AI world would be like the tab auto-complete and co-pilot, right? And then, you know, maybe a little higher is like the chatbot type interface. Obviously you want to get to the highest level you can to build a good product, but the reliability just isn't, and the capability just isn't there in the early innings. And so, and then you think of other level one, level two type things, like Google Maps probably did more for self-driving than in literal self-driving, like a billion people have like the ability to have like maps and navigation just like taken care of for you autonomously. So I think the timing and maturity are really important factors to include.Alessio [00:08:23]: The thing with self-driving, maybe one of the big breakthroughs was like simulation. So it's like, okay, instead of driving, we can simulate these environments. It's really hard to do when knowledge work, you know, how do you simulate like a product review? How do you simulate these things? I'm curious if you've done any experiments. I know some companies have started to build kind of like a virtual personas that you can like bounce ideas off of.Drew [00:08:42]: I mean, fortunately in a company you generate lots of, you know, actual human training data all the time. And then I also just like start with myself, like, all right, I can, you know, it's pretty tricky even within your company to be like, all right, let's open all this up as quote training data. But, you know, I can start with my own emails or my own calendar or own stuff without running into the same kind of like privacy or other concerns. So I often like start with my own stuff. And so that is like a one level of bootstrapping, but actually four or five years ago during COVID, we decided, you know, a lot of companies were thinking about how do we go back to work? And so we decided to really lean into remote and distributed work because I thought, you know, this is going to be the biggest change to the way we work in our lifetimes. And COVID kind of ripped up a bunch of things, but I think everybody was sort of pleasantly surprised how with a lot of knowledge work, you could just keep going. And actually you were sort of fine. Work was decoupled from your physical environment, from being in a physical place, which meant that things people had dreamed about since the fifties or sixties, like telework, like you actually could work from anywhere. And that was now possible. So we decided to really lean into that because we debated, should we sort of hit the fast forward button or should we hit the rewind button and go back to 2019? And obviously that's been playing out over the last few years. And we decided to basically turn, we went like 90% remote. We still, the in-person part's really important. We can kind of come back to our working model, but we're like, yeah, this is, everybody is going to be in some kind of like distributed or hybrid state. So like instead of like running away from this, like let's do a full send, let's really go into it. Let's live in the future. A few years before our customers, let's like turn Dropbox into a lab for distributed work. And we do that like quite literally, both of the working model and then increasingly with our products. And then absolutely, like we have products like Dropbox Dash, which is our universal search product. That was like very elevated in priority for me after COVID because like now you have, we're putting a lot more stress on the system and on our screens, it's a lot more chaotic and overwhelming. And so even just like getting the right information, the right person at the right time is a big fundamental challenge in knowledge work and these, in the distributed world, like big problem today is still getting, you know, has been getting bigger. And then for a lot of these other workflows, yeah, there's, we can both get a lot of natural like training data from just our own like strategy docs and processes. There's obviously a lot you can do with synthetic data and you know, actually like LMs are pretty good at being like imitating generic knowledge workers. So it's, it's kind of funny that way, but yeah, the way I look at it is like really turn Dropbox into a lab for distributed work. You think about things like what are the big problems we're going to have? It's just the complexity on our screens just keeps growing and the whole environment gets kind of more out of sync with what makes us like cognitively productive and engaged. And then even something like Dash was initially seeded, I made a little personal search engine because I was just like personally frustrated with not being able to find my stuff. And along that whole learning journey with AI, like the vector search or semantic search, things like that had just been the tooling for that. The open source stuff had finally gotten to a place where it was a pretty good developer experience. And so, you know, in a few days I had sort of a hello world type search engine and I'm like, oh my God, like this completely works. You don't even have to get the keywords right. The relevance and ranking is super good. We even like untuned. So I guess that's to say like I've been surprised by if you choose like the right algorithm and the right approach, you can actually get like super good results without having like a ton of data. And even with LLMs, you can apply all these other techniques to give them, kind of bootstrap kind of like task maturity pretty quickly.Alessio [00:12:14]: Before we jump into Dash, let's talk about the Drew Haas and AI engineering stuff. So IDE, let's break that down. What IDE do you use? Do you use Cursor, VS Code, do you use any coding assistant, like WeChat, is it just autocomplete?Drew [00:12:28]: Yeah, yeah. Both. So I use VS Code as like my daily driver, although I'm like super excited about things like Cursor or the AI agents. I have my own like stack underneath that. I mean, some off the shelf parts, some pretty custom. So I use the continue.dev just like AI chat UI basically as just the UI layer, but I also proxy the request. I proxy the request to my own backend, which is sort of like a router. You can use any backend. I mean, Sonnet 3.5 is probably the best all around. But then these things are like pretty limited if you don't give them the right context. And so part of what the proxy does is like there's a separate thing where I can say like include all these files by default with the request. And then it becomes a lot easier and like without like cutting and pasting. And I'm building mostly like prototype toy apps, so it's like a front end React thing and a Python backend thing. And so it can do these like end to end diffs basically. And then I also like love being able to host everything locally or do it offline. So I have my own, when I'm on a plane or something or where like you don't have access or the internet's not reliable, I actually bring a gaming laptop on the plane with me. It's like a little like blue briefcase looking thing. And then I like literally hook up a GPU like into one of the outlets. And then I have, I can do like transcription, I can do like autocomplete, like I have an 8 billion, like Llama will run fine.Alessio [00:13:44]: And you're using like a Llama to run the model?Drew [00:13:47]: No, I use, I have my own like LLM inference stack. I mean, it uses the backend somewhat interchangeable. So everything from like XLlama to VLLM or SGLang, there's a bunch of these different backends you can use. And then I started like working on stuff before all this tooling was like really available. So you know, over the last several years, I've built like my own like whole crazy environment and like in stack here. So I'm a little nuts about it.Alessio [00:14:12]: Yeah. What's the state of the art for, I guess not state of the art, but like when it comes to like frameworks and things like that, do you like using them? I think maybe a lot of people say, hey, things change so quickly, they're like trying to abstract things. Yeah.Drew [00:14:24]: It's maybe too early today. As much as I do a lot of coding, I have to be pretty surgical with my time. I don't have that much time, which means I have to sort of like scope my innovation to like very specific places or like my time. So for the front end, it'll be like a pretty vanilla stack, like a Next.js, React based thing. And then these are toy apps. So it's like Python, Flask, SQLite, and then all the different, there's a whole other thing on like the backend. Like how do you get, sort of run all these models locally or with a local GPU? The scaffolding on the front end is pretty straightforward, the scaffolding on the backend is pretty straightforward. Then a lot of it is just like the LLM inference and control over like fine grained aspects of how you do generation, caching, things like that. And then there's a lot, like a lot of the work is how do you take, sort of go to an IMAP, like take an email, get a new, or a document or a spreadsheet or any of these kinds of primitives that you work with and then translate them, render them in a format that an LLM can understand. So there's like a lot of work that goes into that too. Yeah.Alessio [00:15:24]: So I built a kind of like email triage system and like I would say 80% of the code is like Google and like pulling emails and then the actual AI part is pretty easy.Drew [00:15:34]: Yeah. And even, same experience. And then I tried to do all these like NLP things and then to my dismay, like a bunch of reg Xs were like, got you like 95% of the way there. So I still leave it running, I just haven't really built like the LLM powered version of it yet. Yeah.Alessio [00:15:51]: So do you have any thoughts on rag versus long context, especially, I mean with Dropbox, you know? Sure. Do you just want to shove things in? Like have you seen that be a lot better?Drew [00:15:59]: Well, they kind of have different strengths and weaknesses, so you need both for different use cases. I mean, it's been awesome in the last 12 months, like now you have these like long context models that can actually do a lot. You can put a book in, you know, Sonnet's context and then now with the later versions of LLAMA, you can have 128k context. So that's sort of the new normal, which is awesome and that, that wasn't even the case a year ago. That said, models don't always use, and certainly like local models don't use the full context well fully yet, and actually if you provide too much irrelevant context, the quality degrades a lot. And so I say in the open source world, like we're still just getting to the cusp of like the full context is usable. And then of course, like when you're something like Dropbox Dash, like it's basically building this whole like brain that's like read everything your company's ever written. And so that's not going to fit into your context window, so you need rag just as a practical reality. And even for a lot of similar reasons, you need like RAM and hard disk in conventional computer architecture. And I think these things will keep like horse trading, like maybe if, you know, a million or 10 million is the new, tokens is the new context length, maybe that shifts. Maybe the bigger picture is like, it's super exciting to talk about the LLM and like that piece of the puzzle, but there's this whole other scaffolding of more conventional like retrieval or conventional machine learning, especially because you have to scale up products to like millions of people you do in your toy app is not going to scale to that from a cost or latency or performance standpoint. So I think you really need these like hybrid architectures that where you have very like purpose fit tools, or you're probably not using Sonnet 3.5 for all of your normal product use cases. You're going to use like a fine tuned 8 billion model or sort of the minimum model that gets you the right output. And then a smaller model also is like a lot more cost and latency versus like much better characteristics on that front.Alessio [00:17:48]: Yeah. Let's jump into the Dropbox AI story. So sure. Your initial prototype was Files GPT. How did it start? And then how did you communicate that internally? You know, I know you have a pretty strong like mammal culture. One where you're like, okay, Hey, we got to really take this seriously.Drew [00:18:06]: Yeah. Well, on the latter, it was, so how do we say like how we took Dropbox, how AI seriously as a company started kind of around that time, that honeymoon time, unfortunately. In January, I wrote this like memo to the company, like around basically like how we need to play offense in 23. And that most of the time the kind of concrete is set and like the winners are the winners and things are kind of frozen. But then with these new eras of computing, like the PC or the internet or the phone or the concrete on freezes and you can sort of build, do things differently and have a new set of winners. It's sort of like a new season starts as a result of a lot of that sort of personal hacking and just like thinking about this. I'm like, yeah, this is an inflection point in the industry. Like we really need to change how we think about our strategy. And then becoming an AI first company was probably the headline thing that we did. And then, and then that got, and then calling on everybody in the company to really think about in your world, how is AI going to reshape your workflows or what sort of the AI native way of thinking about your job. File GPT, which is sort of this Dropbox AI kind of initial concept that actually came from our engineering team as, you know, as we like called on everybody, like really think about what we should be doing that's new or different. So it was kind of organic and bottoms up like a bunch of engineers just kind of hacked that together. And then that materialized as basically when you preview a file on Dropbox, you can have kind of the most straightforward possible integration of AI, which is a good thing. Like basically you have a long PDF, you want to be able to ask questions of it. So like a pretty basic implementation of RAG and being able to do that when you preview a file on Dropbox. So that was the origin of that, that was like back in 2023 when we released just like the starting engines had just, you know, gotten going.Alessio [00:19:53]: It's funny where you're basically like these files that people have, they really don't want them in a way, you know, like you're storing all these files and like you actually don't want to interact with them. You want a layer on top of it. And that's kind of what also takes you to Dash eventually, which is like, Hey, you actually don't really care where the file is. You just want to be the place that aggregates it. How do you think about what people will know about files? You know, are files the actual file? Are files like the metadata and they're just kind of like a pointer that goes somewhere and you don't really care where it is?Drew [00:20:21]: Yeah.Alessio [00:20:22]: Any thoughts about?Drew [00:20:23]: Totally. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of potential complexity in that question, right? Is it a, you know, what's the difference between a file and a URL? And you can go into the technicals, it's like pass by value, pass by reference. Okay. What's the format like? All right. So it starts with a primitive. It's not really a flat file. It's like a structured data. You're sort of collaborative. Yeah. That's keeping in sync. Blah, blah, blah. I actually don't start there at all. I just start with like, what do people, like, what do humans, let's work back from like how humans think about this stuff or how they should think about this stuff. Meaning like, I don't think about, Oh, here are my files and here are my links or cloud docs. I'm just sort of like, Oh, here's my stuff. This, this, here's sort of my documents. Here's my media. Here's my projects. Here are the people I'm working with. So it starts from primitives more like those, like how do people, how do humans think about these things? And then, then start from like a more ideal experience. Because if you think about it, we kind of have this situation that will look like particularly medieval in hindsight where, all right, how do you manage your work stuff? Well, on all, you know, on one side of your screen, you have this file browser that literally hasn't changed since the early eighties, right? You could take someone from the original Mac and sit them in front of like a computer and they'd be like, this is it. And that's, it's been 40 years, right? Then on the other side of your screen, you have like Chrome or a browser that has so many tabs open, you can no longer see text or titles. This is the state of the art for how we manage stuff at work. Interestingly, neither of those experiences was purpose-built to be like the home for your work stuff or even anything related to it. And so it's important to remember, we get like stuck in these local maxima pretty often in tech where we're obviously aware that files are not going away, especially in certain domains. So that format really matters and where files are still going to be the tool you use for like if there's something big, right? If you're a big video file, that kind of format in a file makes sense. There's a bunch of industries where it's like construction or architecture or sort of these domain specific areas, you know, media generally, if you're making music or photos or video, that all kind of fits in the big file zone where Dropbox is really strong and that's like what customers love us for. It's also pretty obvious that a lot of stuff that used to be in, you know, Word docs or Excel files, like all that has tilted towards the browser and that tilt is going to continue. So with Dash, we wanted to make something that was really like cloud-native, AI-native and deliberately like not be tied down to the abstractions of the file system. Now on the other hand, it would be like ironic and bad if we then like fractured the experience that you're like, well, if it touches a file, it's a syncing metaphor to this app. And if it's a URL, it's like this completely different interface. So there's a convergence that I think makes sense over time. But you know, but I think you have to start from like, not so much the technology, start from like, what do the humans want? And then like, what's the idealized product experience? And then like, what are the technical underpinnings of that, that can make that good experience?Alessio [00:23:20]: I think it's kind of intuitive that in Dash, you can connect Google Drive, right? Because you think about Dropbox, it's like, well, it's file storage, you really don't want people to store files somewhere, but the reality is that they do. How do you think about the importance of storage and like, do you kind of feel storage is like almost solved, where it's like, hey, you can kind of store these files anywhere, what matters is like access.Drew [00:23:38]: It's a little bit nuanced in that if you're dealing with like large quantities of data, it actually does matter. The implementation matters a lot or like you're dealing with like, you know, 10 gig video files like that, then you sort of inherit all the problems of sync and have to go into a lot of the challenges that we've solved. Switching on a pretty important question, like what is the value we provide? What does Dropbox do? And probably like most people, I would have said like, well, Dropbox syncs your files. And we didn't even really have a mission of the company in the beginning. I'm just like, yeah, I just don't want to carry a thumb driving around and life would be a lot better if our stuff just like lived in the cloud and I just didn't have to think about like, what device is the thing on or what operating, why are these operating systems fighting with each other and incompatible? You know, I just want to abstract all of that away. But then so we thought, even we were like, all right, Dropbox provides storage. But when we talked to our customers, they're like, that's not how we see this at all. Like actually, Dropbox is not just like a hard drive in the cloud. It's like the place where I go to work or it's a place like I started a small business is a place where my dreams come true. Or it's like, yeah, it's not keeping files in sync. It's keeping people in sync. It's keeping my team in sync. And so they're using this kind of language where we're like, wait, okay, yeah, because I don't know, storage probably is a commodity or what we do is a commodity. But then we talked to our customers like, no, we're not buying the storage, we're buying like the ability to access all of our stuff in one place. We're buying the ability to share everything and sort of, in a lot of ways, people are buying the ability to work from anywhere. And Dropbox was kind of, the fact that it was like file syncing was an implementation detail of this higher order need that they had. So I think that's where we start too, which is like, what is the sort of higher order thing, the job the customer is hiring Dropbox to do? Storage in the new world is kind of incidental to that. I mean, it still matters for things like video or those kinds of workflows. The value of Dropbox had never been, we provide you like the cheapest bits in the cloud. But it is a big pivot from Dropbox is the company that syncs your files to now where we're going is Dropbox is the company that kind of helps you organize all your cloud content. I started the company because I kept forgetting my thumb drive. But the question I was really asking was like, why is it so hard to like find my stuff, organize my stuff, share my stuff, keep my stuff safe? You know, I'm always like one washing machine and I would leave like my little thumb drive with all my prior company stuff on in the pocket of my shorts and then almost wash it and destroy it. And so I was like, why do we have to, this is like medieval that we have to think about this. So that same mindset is how I approach where we're going. But I think, and then unfortunately the, we're sort of back to the same problems. Like it's really hard to find my stuff. It's really hard to organize myself. It's hard to share my stuff. It's hard to secure my content at work. Now the problem is the same, the shape of the problem and the shape of the solution is pretty different. You know, instead of a hundred files on your desktop, it's now a hundred tabs in your browser, et cetera. But I think that's the starting point.Alessio [00:26:30]: How has the idea of a product evolved for you? So, you know, famously Steve Jobs started by Dropbox and he's like, you know, this is just a feature. It's not a product. And then you build like a $10 billion feature. How in the age of AI, how do you think about, you know, maybe things that used to be a product are now features because the AI on top of it, it's like the product, like what's your mental model? Do you think about it?Drew [00:26:50]: Yeah. So I don't think there's really like a bright line. I don't know if like I use the word features and products and my mental model that much of how I break it down because it's kind of a, it's a good question. I mean, I don't not think about features, I don't think about products, but it does start from that place of like, all right, we have all these new colors we can paint with and all right, what are these higher order needs that are sort of evergreen, right? So people will always have stuff at work. They're always need to be able to find it or, you know, all the verbs I just mentioned. It's like, okay, how can we make like a better painting and how can we, and then how can we use some of these new colors? And then, yeah, it's like pretty clear that after the large models, the way you find stuff share stuff, it's going to be completely different after COVID, it's going to be completely different. So that's the starting point. But I think it is also important to, you know, you have to do more than just work back from the customer and like what they're trying to do. Like you have to think about, and you know, we've, we've learned a lot of this the hard way sometimes. Okay. You might start with a customer. You might start with a job to be on there. You're like, all right, what's the solution to their problem? Or like, can we build the best product that solves that problem? Right. Like what's the best way to find your stuff in the modern world? Like, well, yeah, right now the status quo for the vast majority of the billion, billion knowledge workers is they have like 10 search boxes at work that each search 10% of your stuff. Like that's clearly broken. Obviously you should just have like one search box. All right. So we can do that. And that also has to be like, I'll come back to defensibility in a second, but like, can we build the right solution that is like meaningfully better from the status quo? Like, yes, clearly. Okay. Then can we like get distribution and growth? Like that's sort of the next thing you learned is as a founder, you start with like, what's the product? What's the product? What's the product? Then you're like, wait, wait, we need distribution and we need a business model. So those are the next kind of two dominoes you have to knock down or sort of needles you have to thread at the same time. So all right, how do we grow? I mean, if Dropbox 1.0 is really this like self-serve viral model that there's a lot of, we sort of took a borrowed from a lot of the consumer internet playbook and like what Facebook and social media were doing and then translated that to sort of the business world. How do you get distribution, especially as a startup? And then a business model, like, all right, storage happened to be something in the beginning happened to be something people were willing to pay for. They recognize that, you know, okay, if I don't buy something like Dropbox, I'm going to have to buy an external hard drive. I'm going to have to buy a thumb drive and I have to pay for something one way or another. People are already paying for things like backup. So we felt good about that. But then the last domino is like defensibility. Okay. So you build this product or you get the business model, but then, you know, what do you do when the incumbents, the next chess move for them is I just like copy, bundle, kill. So they're going to copy your product. They'll bundle it with their platforms and they'll like give it away for free or no added cost. And, you know, we had a lot of, you know, scar tissue from being on the wrong side of that. Now you don't need to solve all four for all four or five variables or whatever at once or you can sort of have, you know, some flexibility. But the more of those gates that you get through, you sort of add a 10 X to your valuation. And so with AI, I think, you know, there's been a lot of focus on the large language model, but it's like large language models are a pretty bad business from a, you know, you sort of take off your tech lens and just sort of business lens. Like there's sort of this weirdly self-commoditizing thing where, you know, models only have value if they're kind of on this like Pareto frontier of size and quality and cost. Being number two, you know, if you're not on that frontier, the second the frontier moves out, which it moves out every week, like your model literally has zero economic value because it's dominated by the new thing. LLMs generate output that can be used to train or improve. So there's weird, peculiar things that are specific to the large language model. And then you have to like be like, all right, where's the value going to accrue in the stack or the value chain? And, you know, certainly at the bottom with Nvidia and the semiconductor companies, and then it's going to be at the top, like the people who have the customer relationship who have the application layer. Those are a few of the like lenses that I look at a question like that through.Alessio [00:30:48]: Do you think AI is making people more careful about sharing the data at all? People are like, oh, data is important, but it's like, whatever, I'm just throwing it out there. Now everybody's like, but are you going to train on my data? And like your data is actually not that good to train on anyway. But like how have you seen, especially customers, like think about what to put in, what to not?Drew [00:31:06]: I mean, everybody should be. Well, everybody is concerned about this and nobody should be concerned about this, right? Because nobody wants their personal companies information to be kind of ground up into little pellets to like sell you ads or train the next foundation model. I think it's like massively top of mind for every one of our customers, like, and me personally, and with my Dropbox hat on, it's like so fundamental. And, you know, we had experience with this too at Dropbox 1.0, the same kind of resistance, like, wait, I'm going to take my stuff on my hard drive and put it on your server somewhere. Are you serious? What could possibly go wrong? And you know, before that, I was like, wait, are you going to sell me, I'm going to put my credit card number into this website? And before that, I was like, hey, I'm going to take all my cash and put it in a bank instead of under my mattress. You know, so there's a long history of like tech and comfort. So in some sense, AI is kind of another round of the same thing, but the issues are real. And then when I think about like defensibility for Dropbox, like that's actually a big advantage that we have is one, our incentives are very aligned with our customers, right? We only get, we only make money if you pay us and you only pay us if we do a good job. So we don't have any like side hustle, you know, we're not training the next foundation model. You know, we're not trying to sell you ads. Actually we're not even trying to lock you into an ecosystem, like the whole point of Dropbox is it works, you know, everywhere. Because I think one of the big questions we've circling around is sort of like, in the world of AI, where should our lane be? Like every startup has to ask, or in every big company has to ask, like, where can we really win? But to me, it was like a lot of the like trust advantages, platform agnostic, having like a very clean business model, not having these other incentives. And then we also are like super transparent. We were transparent early on. We're like, all right, we're going to establish these AI principles, very table stakes stuff of like, here's transparency. We want to give people control. We want to cover privacy, safety, bias, like fairness, all these things. And we put that out up front to put some sort of explicit guardrails out where like, hey, we're, you know, because everybody wants like a trusted partner as they sort of go into the wild world of AI. And then, you know, you also see people cutting corners and, you know, or just there's a lot of uncertainty or, you know, moving the pieces around after the fact, which no one feels good about.Alessio [00:33:14]: I mean, I would say the last 10, 15 years, the race was kind of being the system of record, being the storage provider. I think today it's almost like, hey, if I can use Dash to like access my Google Drive file, why would I pay Google for like their AI feature? So like vice versa, you know, if I can connect my Dropbook storage to this other AI assistant, how do you kind of think about that, about, you know, not being able to capture all the value and how open people will stay? I think today things are still pretty open, but I'm curious if you think things will get more closed or like more open later.Drew [00:33:42]: Yeah. Well, I think you have to get the value exchange right. And I think you have to be like a trustworthy partner or like no one's going to partner with you if they think you're going to eat their lunch, right? Or if you're going to disintermediate them and like all the companies are quite sophisticated with how they think about that. So we try to, like, we know that's going to be the reality. So we're actually not trying to eat anyone's like Google Drive's lunch or anything. Actually we'll like integrate with Google Drive, we'll integrate with OneDrive, really any of the content platforms, even if they compete with file syncing. So that's actually a big strategic shift. We're not really reliant on being like the store of record and there are pros and cons to this decision. But if you think about it, we're basically like providing all these apps more engagement. We're like helping users do what they're really trying to do, which is to get, you know, that Google Doc or whatever. And we're not trying to be like, oh, by the way, use this other thing. This is all part of our like brand reputation. It's like, no, we give people freedom to use whatever tools or operating system they want. We're not taking anything away from our partners. We're actually like making it, making their thing more useful or routing people to those things. I mean, on the margin, then we have something like, well, okay, to the extent you do rag and summarize things, maybe that doesn't generate a click. Okay. You know, we also know there's like infinity investment going into like the work agents. So we're not really building like a co-pilot or Gemini competitor. Not because we don't like those. We don't find that thing like captivating. Yeah, of course. But just like, you know, you learn after some time in this business that like, yeah, there's some places that are just going to be such kind of red oceans or just like super big battlefields. Everybody's kind of trying to solve the same problem and they just start duplicating all each other effort. And then meanwhile, you know, I think the concern would be is like, well, there's all these other problems that aren't being properly addressed by AI. And I was concerned that like, yeah, and everybody's like fixated on the agent or the chatbot interface, but forgetting that like, hey guys, like we have the opportunity to like really fix search or build a self-organizing Dropbox or environment or there's all these other things that can be a compliment. Because we don't really want our customers to be thinking like, well, do I use Dash or do I use co-pilot? And frankly, none of them do. In a lot of ways, actually, some of the things that we do on the security front with Dash for Business are a good compliment to co-pilot. Because as part of Dash for Business, we actually give admins, IT, like universal visibility and control over all the different, what's being shared in your company across all these different platforms. And as a precondition to installing something like co-pilot or Dash or Glean or any of these other things, right? You know, IT wants to know like, hey, before we like turn all the lights in here, like let's do a little cleaning first before we let everybody in. And there just haven't been good tools to do that. And post AI, you would do it completely differently. And so that's like a big, that's a cornerstone of what we do and what sets us apart from these tools. And actually, in a lot of cases, we will help those tools be adopted because we actually help them do it safely. Yeah.Alessio [00:36:27]: How do you think about building for AI versus people? It's like when you mentioned cleaning up is because maybe before you were like, well, humans can have some common sense when they look at data on what to pick versus models are just kind of like ingesting. Do you think about building products differently, knowing that a lot of the data will actually be consumed by LLMs and like agents and whatnot versus like just people?Drew [00:36:46]: I think it'll always be, I aim a little bit more for like, you know, level three, level four kind of automation, because even if the LLM is like capable of completely autonomously organizing your environment, it probably would do a reasonable job. But like, I think you build bad UI when the sort of user has to fit itself to the computer versus something that you're, you know, it's like an instrument you're playing or something where you have some kind of good partnership. And you know, and on the other side, you don't have to do all this like manual effort. And so like the command line was sort of subsumed by like, you know, graphical UI. We'll keep toggling back and forth. Maybe chat will be, chat will be an increasing, especially when you bring in voice, like will be an increasing part of the puzzle. But I don't think we're going to go back to like a million command lines either. And then as far as like the sort of plumbing of like, well, is this going to be consumed by an LLM or a human? Like fortunately, like you don't really have to design it that differently. I mean, you have to make sure everything's legible to the LLM, but it's like quite tolerant of, you know, malformed everything. And actually the more, the easier it makes something to read for a human, the easier it is for an LLM to read to some extent as well. But we really think about what's that kind of right, how do we build that right, like human machine interface where you're still in control and driving, but then it's super easy to translate your intent into like the, you know, however you want your folder, setting your environment set up or like your preferences.Alessio [00:38:05]: What's the most underrated thing about Dropbox that maybe people don't appreciate?Drew [00:38:09]: Well, I think this is just such a natural evolution for us. It's pretty true. Like when people think about the world of AI, file syncing is not like the next thing you would auto complete mentally. And I think we also did like our first thing so well that there were a lot of benefits to that. But I think there also are like, we hit it so hard with our first product that it was like pretty tough to come up with a sequel. And we had a bit of a sophomore slump and you know, I think actually a lot of kids do use Dropbox through in high school or things like that, but you know, they're not, they're using, they're a lot more in the browser and then their file system, right. And we know all this, but still like we're super well positioned to like help a new generation of people with these fundamental problems and these like that affect, you know, a billion knowledge workers around just finding, organizing, sharing your stuff and keeping it safe. And there's, there's a ton of unsolved problems in those four verbs. We've talked about search a little bit, but just even think about like a whole new generation of people like growing up without the ability to like organize their things and yeah, search is great. And if you just have like a giant infinite pile of stuff, then search does make that more manageable. But you know, you do lose some things that were pretty helpful in prior decades, right? So even just the idea of persistence, stuff still being there when you come back, like when I go to sleep and wake up, my physical papers are still on my desk. When I reboot my computer, the files are still on my hard drive. But then when in my browser, like if my operating system updates the wrong way and closes the browser or if I just more commonly just declared tab bankruptcy, it's like your whole workspace just clears itself out and starts from zero. And you're like, on what planet is this a good idea? There's no like concept of like, oh, here's the stuff I was working on. Yeah, let me get back to it. And so that's like a big motivation for things like Dash. Huge problems with sharing, right? If I'm remodeling my house or if I'm getting ready for a board meeting, you know, what do I do if I have a Google doc and an air table and a 10 gig 4k video? There's no collection that holds mixed format things. And so it's another kind of hidden problem, hidden in plain sight, like he's missing primitives. Files have folders, songs have playlists, links have, you know, there's no, somehow we miss that. And so we're building that with stacks in Dash where it's like a mixed format, smart collection that you can then, you know, just share whatever you need internally, externally and have it be like a really well designed experience and platform agnostic and not tying you to any one ecosystem. We're super excited about that. You know, we talked a little bit about security in the modern world, like IT signs all these compliance documents, but in reality has no way of knowing where anything is or what's being shared. It's actually better for them to not know about it than to know about it and not be able to do anything about it. And when we talked to customers, we found that there were like literally people in IT whose jobs it is to like manually go through, log into each, like log into office, log into workspace, log into each tool and like go comb through one by one the links that people have shared and like unshares. There's like an unshare guy in all these companies and that that job is probably about as fun as it sounds like, my God. So there's, you know, fortunately, I guess what makes technology a good business is for every problem it solves, it like creates a new one, so there's always like a sequel that you need. And so, you know, I think the happy version of our Act 2 is kind of similar to Netflix. I look at a lot of these companies that really had multiple acts and Netflix had the vision to be streaming from the beginning, but broadband and everything wasn't ready for it. So they started by mailing you DVDs, but then went to streaming and then, but the value probably the whole time was just like, let me press play on something I want to see. And they did a really good job about bringing people along from the DVD mailing off. You would think like, oh, the DVD mailing piece is like this burning platform or it's like legacy, you know, ankle weight. And they did have some false starts in that transition. But when you really think about it, they were able to take that DVD mailing audience, move, like migrate them to streaming and actually bootstrap a, you know, take their season one people and bootstrap a victory in season two, because they already had, you know, they weren't starting from scratch. And like both of those worlds were like super easy to sort of forget and be like, oh, it's all kind of destiny. But like, no, that was like an incredibly competitive environment. And Netflix did a great job of like activating their Act 1 advantages and winning in Act 2 because of it. So I don't think people see Dropbox that way. I think people are sort of thinking about us just in terms of our Act 1 and they're like, yeah, Dropbox is fine. I used to use it 10 years ago. But like, what have they done for me lately? And I don't blame them. So fortunately, we have like better and better answers to that question every year.Alessio [00:42:39]: And you call it like the silicon brain. So you see like Dash and Stacks being like the silicon brain interface, basically forDrew [00:42:46]: people. I mean, that's part of it. Yeah. And writ large, I mean, I think what's so exciting about AI and everybody's got their own kind of take on it, but if you like really zoom out civilizationally and like what allows humans to make progress and, you know, what sort of is above the fold in terms of what's really mattered. I certainly want to, I mean, there are a lot of points, but some that come to mind like you think about things like the industrial revolution, like before that, like mechanical energy, like the only way you could get it was like by your own hands, maybe an animal, maybe some like clever sort of machines or machines made of like wood or something. But you were quite like energy limited. And then suddenly, you know, the industrial revolution, things like electricity, it suddenly is like, all right, mechanical energy is now available on demand as a very fungible kind of, and then suddenly we consume a lot more of it. And then the standard of living goes way, way, way, way up. That's been pretty limited to the physical realm. And then I believe that the large models, that's really the first time we can kind of bottle up cognitive energy and offloaded, you know, if we started by offloading a lot of our mechanical or physical busy work to machines that freed us up to make a lot of progress in other areas. But then with AI and computing, we're like, now we can offload a lot more of our cognitive busy work to machines. And then we can create a lot more of it. Price of it goes way down. Importantly, like, it's not like humans never did anything physical again. It's sort of like, no, but we're more leveraged. We can move a lot more earth with a bulldozer than a shovel. And so that's like what is at the most fundamental level, what's so exciting to me about AI. And so what's the silicon brain? It's like, well, we have our human brains and then we're going to have this other like half of our brain that's sort of coming online, like our silicon brain. And it's not like one or the other. They complement each other. They have very complimentary strengths and weaknesses. And that's, that's a good thing. There's also this weird tangent we've gone on as a species to like where knowledge work, knowledge workers have this like epidemic of, of burnout, great resignation, quiet quitting. And there's a lot going on there. But I think that's one of the biggest problems we have is that be like, people deserve like meaningful work and, you know, can't solve all of it. But like, and at least in knowledge work, there's a lot of own goals, you know, enforced errors that we're doing where it's like, you know, on one side with brain science, like we know what makes us like productive and fortunately it's also what makes us engaged. It's like when we can focus or when we're some kind of flow state, but then we go to work and then increasingly going to work is like going to a screen and you're like, if you wanted to design an environment that made it impossible to ever get into a flow state or ever be able to focus, like what we have is that. And that was the thing that just like seven, eight years ago just blew my mind. I'm just like, I cannot understand why like knowledge work is so jacked up on this adventure. It's like, we, we put ourselves in like the most cognitively polluted environment possible and we put so much more stress on the system when we're working remotely and things like that. And you know, all of these problems are just like going in the wrong direction. And I just, I just couldn't understand why this was like a problem that wasn't fixing itself. And I'm like, maybe there's something Dropbox can do with this and you know, things like Dash are the first step. But then, well, so like what, well, I mean, now like, well, why are humans in this like polluted state? It's like, well, we're just, all of the tools we have today, like this generation of tools just passes on all of the weight, the burden to the human, right? So it's like, here's a bajillion, you know, 80,000 unread emails, cool. Here's 25 unread Slack channels. Here's, we all get started like, it's like jittery like thinking about it. And then you look at that, you're like, wait, I'm looking at my phone, it says like 80,000 unread things. There's like no question, product question for which this is the right answer. Fortunately, that's why things like our silicon brain are pretty helpful because like they can serve as like an attention filter where it's like, actually, computers have no problem reading a million things. Humans can't do that, but computers can. And to some extent, this was already happening with computer, you know, Excel is an aversion of your silicon brain or, you know, you could draw the line arbitrarily. But with larger models, like now so many of these little subtasks and tasks we do at work can be like fully automated. And I think, you know, I think it's like an important metaphor to me because it mirrors a lot of what we saw with computing, computer architecture generally. It's like we started out with the CPU, very general purpose, then GPU came along much better at these like parallel computations. We talk a lot about like human versus machine being like substituting, it's like CPU, GPU, it's not like one is categorically better than the other, they're complements. Like if you have something really parallel, use a GPU, if not, use a CPU. The whole relationship, that symbiosis between CPU and GPU has obviously evolved a lot since, you know, playing Quake 2 or something. But right now we have like the human CPU doing a lot of, you know, silicon CPU tasks. And so you really have to like redesign the work thoughtfully such that, you know, probably not that different from how it's evolved in computer architecture, where the CPU is sort of an orchestrator of these really like heavy lifting GPU tasks. That dividing line does shift a little bit, you know, with every generation. And so I think we need to think about knowledge work in that context, like what are human brains good at? What's our silicon brain good at? Let's resegment the work. Let's offload all the stuff that can be automated. Let's go on a hunt for like anything that could save a human CPU cycle. Let's give it to the silicon one. And so I think we're at the early earnings of actually being able to do something about it.Alessio [00:48:00]: It's funny, I gave a talk to a few government people earlier this year with a similar point where we used to make machines to release human labor. And then the kilowatt hour was kind of like the unit for a lot of countries. And now you're doing the same thing with the brain and the data centers are kind of computational power plants, you know, they're kind of on demand tokens. You're on the board of Meta, which is the number one donor of Flops for the open source world. The thing about open source AI is like the model can be open source, but you need to carry a briefcase to actually maybe run a model that is not even that good compared to some of the big ones. How do you think about some of the differences in the open source ethos with like traditional software where it's like really easy to run and act on it versus like models where it's like it might be open source, but like I'm kind of limited, sort of can do with it?Drew [00:48:45]: Yeah, well, I think with every new era of computing, there's sort of a tug of war between is this going to be like an open one or a closed one? And, you know, there's pros and cons to both. It's not like open is always better or open always wins. But, you know, I think you look at how the mobile, like the PC era and the Internet era started out being more on the open side, like it's very modular. Everybody sort of party that everybody could, you know, come to some downsides of that security. But I think, you know, the advent of AI, I think there's a real question, like given the capital intensity of what it takes to train these foundation models, like are we going to live in a world where oligopoly or cartel or all, you know, there's a few companies that have the keys and we're all just like paying them rent. You know, that's one future. Or is it going to be more open and accessible? And I'm like super happy with how that's just I find it exciting on many levels with all the different hats I wear about it. You know, fortunately, you've seen in real life, yeah, even if people aren't bringing GPUs on a plane or something, you've seen like the price performance of these models improve 10 or 100x year over year, which is sort of like many Moore's laws compounded together for a bunch of reasons like that wouldn't have happened without open source. Right. You know, for a lot of same reasons, it's probably better that we can anyone can sort of spin up a website without having to buy an internet information server license like there was some alternative future. So like things are Linux and really good. And there was a good balance of trade to where like people contribute their code and then also benefit from the community returning the favor. I mean, you're seeing that with open source. So you wouldn't see all this like, you know, this flourishing of research and of just sort of the democratization of access to compute without open source. And so I think it's been like phenomenally successful in terms of just moving the ball forward and pretty much anything you care about, I believe, even like safety. You can have a lot more eyes on it and transparency instead of just something is happening. And there was three places with nuclear power plants attached to them. Right. So I think it's it's been awesome to see. And then and again, for like wearing my Dropbox hat, like anybody who's like scaling a service to millions of people, again, I'm probably not using like frontier models for every request. It's, you know, there are a lot of different configurations, mostly with smaller models. And even before you even talk about getting on the device, like, you know, you need this whole kind of constellation of different options. So open source has been great for that.Alessio [00:51:06]: And you were one of the first companies in the cloud repatriation. You kind of brought back all the storage into your own data centers. Where are we in the AI wave for that? I don't think people really care today to bring the models in-house. Like, do you think people will care in the future? Like, especially as you have more small models that you want to control more of the economics? Or are the tokens so subsidized that like it just doesn't matter? It's more like a principle. Yeah. Yeah.Drew [00:51:30]: I mean, I think there's another one where like thinking about the future is a lot easier if you start with the past. So, I mean, there's definitely this like big surge in demand as like there's sort of this FOMO driven bubble of like all of big tech taking their headings and shipping them to Jensen for a couple of years. And then you're like, all right, well, first of all, we've seen this kind of thing before. And in the late 90s with like Fiber, you know, this huge race to like own the internet, own the information superhighway, literally, and then way overbuilt. And then there was this like crash. I don't know to what extent, like maybe it is really different this time. Or, you know, maybe if we create AGI that will sort of solve the rest of the, or we'll just have a different set of things to worry about. But, you know, the simplest way I think about it is like this is sort of a rent not buy phase because, you know, I wouldn't want to be, we're still so early in the maturity, you know, I wouldn't want to be buying like pallets of over like of 286s at a 5x markup when like the 386 and 486 and Pentium and everything are like clearly coming there around the corner. And again, because of open source, there's just been a lot more com

Fox 40's Sean Cunningham and The Kings Beat's James Ham join forces for coverage of the Sacramento Kings. Topics include an updated injury report, Kings drop their first tow preseason games, takeaways from the play of Isaac Jones, Mason Jones, Colby Jones and Boogie Ellis, are their defensive concerns and another episode of the Business of Basketball focused on questions from then audience. Thanks for joining us on this adventure! Big shoutout to Paul Jinkerson (@paulitition) for creating a new intro and outro for the podcast and to Brenden for creating our new overlay for the podcast. The Kings Beat merchandise shop: https://thekingsbeat.myshopify.com/ Jump on board with a premium subscription to The Kings Beat: https://kings-beat.beehiiv.com/upgrade Or start out with a free subscription to The Kings Beat: https://kings-beat.beehiiv.com/subscribe Want to advertise on The Kings Beat Podcast? We're taking sponsorship inquiries: https://airtable.com/shrEpprMxX1AF1U6U Link to Prize Picks: https://prizepicks.onelink.me/ivHR/KI... Password: KINGSBEAT #BlueWireVideo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Politics War Room ON TOUR  - live show in Boston on 11/2 at politicon.com/tour  Watch Politics War Room & James Carville Explains on YouTube @PoliticsWarRoomOfficial James and Al react to the VP debate, call on Kamala's campaign to go on the offensive, and welcome Wisconsin Democratic Party Chair Ben Wikler. They strategize about how to win his state, defend the Blue Wall of northern battleground states, and expose the disastrous impact of Trump's proposed tariffs on workers and inflation.  Then, they're joined by tennis legend Martina Navratilova to discuss her activism on behalf of women in sports, the desire to win, her experience defecting to the US from the Soviet Bloc, and the European perspective on the Ukraine War. Email your questions to James and Al at politicswarroom@gmail.com or tweet them to @politicon.  Make sure to include your city– we love to hear where you're from! Get tickets for the Politics War Room live shows in Boston on 11/2 at politicon.com/tour  Get text updates from Politics War Room and Politicon. Watch Politics War Room & James Carville Explains on YouTube @PoliticsWarRoomOfficial CARVILLE: WINNING IS EVERYTHING, STUPID, comes out 10/5 @ 7 PM EST on CNN. Get updates and some great behind-the-scenes content.  Follow James on Twitter @jamescarville and his new TikTok @realjamescarville James Carville & Al Hunt have launched the Politics War Room Substack Get More From This Week's Guests:  Ben Wikler: Twitter | Wisconsin Democratic Party | Website | Wisconsin Donations | MoveOn Martina Navratilova: Twitter | Website | International Tennis Hall of Fame | TopCourt.com Please Support Our Sponsors: Glean: Find answers, generate content, and automate work by connecting and understanding all your company data on Glean's Work A.I. platform when you go to glean.com/politics 3 Day Blinds: For their buy 1 get 1 50% off deal, head to 3DayBlinds.com/warroom Beam: Sleep better with Beam's best-selling Dream Powder and get up to 40% off for a limited time when you go to shopbeam.com/warroom and use code: WARROOM

Tamar Yehoshua is the president of product and technology at Glean. Prior to joining Glean, Tamar was chief product officer at Slack, where she led product, design, and research as the company scaled, including a 10x increase in revenue, its public listing, and an acquisition by Salesforce. She also led product and engineering teams at Google, working on search, identity, and privacy, and at A9.com, an Amazon company. Tamar has served on the board of directors for RetailMeNot, ServiceNow, Snyk, and Yext. In our conversation, we discuss:• Why you don't need to be a well-run company to win• The impact of AI on product management and the future of work• How to build strong cross-functional relationships, especially with engineers• Lessons learned from working with leaders like Jeff Bezos and Stewart Butterfield• Strategies for staying ahead in a rapidly evolving tech landscape• Much more—Brought to you by:• Explo—Embed customer-facing analytics in your product• Sprig⁠⁠—Build products for people, not data points• Sidebar—Accelerate your career by surrounding yourself with extraordinary peers—Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/you-dont-need-to-be-a-well-run-company-to-win-tamar-yehoshua—Where to find Tamar Yehoshua:• X: https://x.com/TYehoshua• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tamar-yehoshua-886217/• Newsletter: https://tamaryehoshua.substack.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Tamar's background(02:09) Key advice for career success(06:54) Understanding people and motivations(09:33) The importance of impact(11:20) Navigating company chaos(18:40) Career planning: a different perspective(26:22) Lessons from industry leaders(37:59) Building stronger cross-functional relationships(42:00) Streamlining OKR reviews with async methods(45:26) Why you shouldn't worry so much about making users unhappy(47:50) The power of listening in leadership(52:34) How to leverage AI so you don't fall behind(01:06:39) Closing thoughts and lightning round—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

In this episode of the Product Thinking podcast, Melissa Perri sits down with Tamar Yehoshua, President of Product and Technology at Glean, to explore the transformative role of AI in modern enterprise search and productivity. Tamar shares her journey from leading product teams at Google to driving innovation at Glean, discussing how AI and retrieval-augmented generation are reshaping how organizations access and utilize information. She dives into the challenges of scaling AI-driven products in a fast-paced startup environment and the strategies her team employs to maximize impact and drive user adoption.

Guest: Sridhar Ramaswamy, CEO of Snowflake“People underestimate what it is to go through a complete reset,” says Snowflake CEO Sridhar Ramaswamy. And he knows it: After an incredible 15-year run at Google, he started over from zero with an AI search startup, Neeva. And in hindsight, he regrets not trying to port over more of the skills that had made him a successful leader before. “You should be truthful with yourself about what is it that you know that you're really good at,” he says.In this episode, Sridhar and Joubin discuss Morgan Stanley, working with urgency, avoiding comparisons, following your passions, Steph Curry, summer school, the Google bubble, axes of improvement, Vivek Raghunathan, Bill Coughran, Bell Labs, Mark McLaughlin, Nikesh Arora, daily emails, Chris Degnan, competitiveness, aircraft carriers, and size 31 pants. Chapters:(01:05) - Travel challenges (03:55) - Crisis mangement (08:59) - Parenting (14:01) - Defining success (20:37) - From Google to Neeva (27:57) - Transition troubles (31:06) - Glean vs. Neeva (34:08) - Becoming Snowflake's CEO (38:41) - Authority (39:58) - Frank Slootman (44:24) - Palo Alto Networks (48:27) - Transparent culture (50:56) - Sridhar's morning ritual (54:23) - Complete visibility (57:49) - Priorities (01:00:10) - Snowflake's stock price (01:02:33) - Who it's hiring Links:Connect with SridharTwitterLinkedInConnect with JoubinTwitterLinkedInEmail: grit@kleinerperkins.com Learn more about Kleiner PerkinsThis episode was edited by Eric Johnson from LightningPod.fm