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274. Holy Spirit Stories and Fruit and Ways to Identify His Guidance in Our Lives with Margaret Feinberg   Exodus 31:3 NIV "and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with wisdom, with understanding, with knowledge and with all kinds of skills—"   *Transcription Below*   Questions and Topics We Cover: Joy is a fruit of the Spirit, so will you share some insight into what you've been learning about the Holy Spirit from your most recent research for your latest book, entitled The God You Need to Know? If someone listening has trouble identifying the Spirit's role and God's direction or Jesus' voice in their life, how would you encourage them to grow in attention and recognition of His voice and leading? Do you have any stories to give as illustrations for the Spirit still mightily being at work in the world and in people's lives today?   Margaret Feinberg, one of America's most beloved Bible teachers, speaks at churches and conferences and hosts the popular podcast The Joycast. Her books and Bible studies, including Taste and See, Fight Back with Joy, More Power to You, and The God You Need to Know have sold more than one million copies and received critical acclaim and national media coverage from the Associated Press, USA Today, Los Angeles Times, Washington Post, and more. She was named by Christianity Today as one of fifty women most shaping culture and the church today. Margaret savors life with her husband, Leif, and their superpup, Zoom.   Margaret's Most Recent Work: The God You Need To Know Book and Bible Study   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Dream Seller Travel, Megan Rokey   Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce: 150 Brain Science and Spiritual Abundance with Ken Baugh Special Patreon Re-Release Theology and Discipleship with Ken Baugh 259 God Speaks to His Kids . . . Here's How with Chris Allen Fruitful with Laura Dugger   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 2:18) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Do you love to travel?   If so, then let me introduce you to today's sponsor, DreamCellar Travel, a Christian-owned and operated travel agency. Check them out on Facebook or online at DreamCellarTravel.com. Today we get to learn from one of the most joyful human beings I've ever encountered.   My guest for today is Margaret Feinberg, and she's an author and researcher and podcaster and speaker. Most recently, her research project turned into a book where she was researching all about the Holy Spirit and His work in the Old Testament and the New Testament, and still His work that's present and active in our lives and around our world today. So, her stories of His specific presence at work in our lives are so moving, and she also pairs that with practical ways that we can more clearly hear from the Holy Spirit and identify His voice in our lives.   We also chat about the true definition of the word weird, which I actually want to elaborate on now because in the moment I couldn't find the definition that was so powerful. So, weird is defined as unearthly or uncanny, extraordinary, involving or suggesting the supernatural, and completely fantastic. Sometimes we think the Holy Spirit may be inviting us into something that seems weird, but He's redefined weird for us, and I just pray that all of us after this conversation will accept the invitation with gladness from Holy Spirit in our lives to join in whatever adventure He has planned for each one of us today.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Margaret.   Margaret Feinberg: (2:18 - 2:24) What a delight to be with you today. It's absolute joy, and you look fantastic, by the way.   Laura Dugger: (2:24 - 2:45) You're so kind. I can tell that joy is one of your markers already, and that makes me think you just have such a rich spiritual heritage in general. So, we don't typically start here, but can you go back and share your parents' story of coming to faith in Jesus Christ?   Margaret Feinberg: (2:46 - 5:22) Absolutely. I share this in the book, The God You Need to Know, in Bible study, but it's pretty beautiful. They actually came to know Jesus back in the 1970s during the Jesus movement, and my father was raised Jewish, and my mom was not really raised much in the church, and so, they got married, and separately on the same weekend, they came to know Christ. My father, back in the 1960s, he was actually a surfboard manufacturer.   He helped build longboards the very first time that longboards were cool, and these customers kept coming into his little store and telling him about Jesus, and eventually he grew so frustrated that one weekend he went out turkey hunting, and he was sitting in turkey blind, had tons of time around him, and decided to sit down and read the entire New Testament over the course of that weekend, and he read it, and he thought, “Wow, Jesus came to earth.”   He lived, he died, and he was resurrected that we can have eternal life for free, and he thought, in his Jewish brain, that is a good deal, and so, he just believed in Christ, and meanwhile, my mom is at home and has her own encounter. She's finishing reading a book by the name of The Great Late Planet Earth by Hal Lindsey, which was actually the best-selling book of the decade back in the 1970s, and at the end of that book, it had an invitation to come to know Christ, and so, both of them come to know Christ separately on the same weekend. They come home on that Sunday, and they're a little awkward about it because it sounds weird. They don't really want to tell each other, and then finally start to spell out, and there's such joy that they both came to know Christ because the Holy Spirit was at work in their lives. What's amazing is that they had been trying to have kids for the first eight years of their marriage and hadn't been able to conceive, and within a month of them coming to know Jesus, I was conceived. So, you just see the work of the Holy Spirit all over that, and that He is leading people to Christ. He is on the move, and sometimes it doesn't involve any of us doing anything, and that's a freedom marker for us. It's not our job to run around and try to save everybody. Holy Spirit is already at work, and when we have the opportunities to be part of that, it is a privilege and a joy. Trust in a God who is so good and so loving and so kind that He will find people through reading books and hiding out in a turkey blind hunting turkeys all weekend.   Laura Dugger: (5:23 - 5:45) That gives me goosebumps even to hear the timing of that and you being conceived. Then you also had a unique childhood. At that time, not as many people were homeschooled, and your story was fascinating. So, what was homeschooling and spiritual discipleship like for you in the growing up years?   Margaret Feinberg: (5:46 - 8:18) Yeah, so, in those early years, my mom and dad had that mom-and-pop kind of surf shop down in Cocoa Beach, Florida. For all you surfing nerds, Ron Jon loaned my dad the money to marry my mom. I mean, so, we're talking deep surfing roots, still friends to this day, and so, they would work, and a lot of you are entrepreneurs and are listening, and you get this, but they would often work seven days a week, 14 hours a day, just trying to keep this little store open with their employee. It just was. It's just a rough business, retail, and so, the only way that they could get away was they would leave the store in the hands of a manager. They decided to buy a really small, inexpensive boat, and we would go sail from the coast of Florida into the Caribbean. So, as we did that, what do we do for school. I remember for third grade, we actually went for an entire year, and so, it was homeschooling. Now, this is like early 80s, and you have to think like it's not exactly fact-checked, reputable, like you send your work in like once or twice a year. So, I'm living on this boat, super remote, not even around a ton of kids, pretty isolated, and I figured out that if I did all my schoolwork in one day that I could play the other six, and so, that was my year of third grade. Fortunately, things turned out okay, but I learned so much more just meeting people from all over the world, surfing or swimming.   I learned how to, at eight years old, shoot my first lobster because we had to survive off the ocean. So, it was an incredible experience. Then after that, ended up going into public school in the later years once we got to like probably fifth, sixth, a lot more steady than those early years. But you know, the thing that I always saw in my mom was I would wake up, and she would usually be on the couch or on the deck of the boat, and she would be reading her Bible, and there was something about that. It wasn't spoken.   It wasn't like you must do this, but I watched it, and I saw it, and now all these years later, that's what I do. So, for all those mamas and papas who are listening and watching, I just want to encourage you - like how you live, those little things, the kids and the grandkids and the great-grandkids, they watch, they see, and it matters, and so, thank you. Those of you who are engaging in those things. It pays dividends for decades and generations to come.   Laura Dugger: (8:20 - 8:28) That's incredible, and then can you share about your own faith journey? You saw that modeled. When did it become personal to you?   Margaret Feinberg: (8:29 - 11:44) Yeah, you know, even as a young kid, I was aware of God and Jesus and Holy Spirit, and just the Lord was very tender to make Himself real to me when I was young. When I went away to college, and this is just normal behavior, you know, there is that kind of making faith your own, figuring it out, and so, my freshman year of college, I partied like a rock star. I got the bees, the beer, the boys, and the Ben and Jerry, like I, you know, I just all the things, and I remember at the end of that year, I had this sense that God was saying to me like, you are my child. I have called you by name.   You are mine. Come back to me, and I read about this in The God You Need to Know, but one of those was a turning point I went to. It was actually a Methodist conference on Holy Spirit, and while I was there, I had an unusual experience, but in it, you know, I'm watching, I'm listening to all these lectures.   I'm in the conference. I'm attending all these things, and at one point, I had a thought pop into my mind that was not my own, and the thought was go to the prayer room and look underneath the tablecloth. I was like, okay, that's weird, but it was like go to the prayer room and look underneath the tablecloth. So, I'm like, you know what? At the end of the day, like what do I have to lose?   I mean the worst thing that happens is I wander into our prayer room. Okay, we'll take the risk, and I remember going in there, and I'm kind of like there's some people praying (a couple). I'm trying to like I don't want to be weird like I know it's a conference on the Holy Spirit, but still I'm like I am not going to be weird about it. So, I'm like trying to peek underneath a tablecloth, and there's nothing there, and there's all these tables around the room. So, I'm kind of like making my way across, and I'm seeing like one lady like eyeing me like what is happening. So, I peek under another one. Anyway, I go table after table, nothing after nothing until I reach the very last table. I pick up the tablecloth, and there is a Bible, and I look, and it's full of like notes and photographs. So, I pull it out, and there's a name on the front, and so, I just kind of said, “You know, excuse me in the prayer room like does anybody know this person, and most people were like no, and one lady says you know what I do know her, and she had to leave the conference early, and I actually have her phone number.” So, all of a sudden I'm on the phone calling this lady and saying “Hey, I just found your Bible on the phone.”    She says, “You have no idea. That Bible is full of decades of prayers and notes and photos that can't be replaced. I have been sitting here praying that someone would find my Bible.” So, I'm just in awe like Holy Spirit, I didn't even know - like wow like this is not just a mental learning.   This is a real experience, and so, I told a couple people at the conference about it. One said' “You know what, actually, if you're driving up that direction, I've been praying to get a ride up that direction.” So, I was able to drop off this ministry worker, return this Bible to this precious woman, and that really became one of the markers in my life. Oh my goodness Holy Spirit is real. He is on the move. He is leading and guiding us, and this is such an exciting thrilling adventure to be on.   Laura Dugger: (11:45 - 12:12) Wow, and it absolutely is. You are an incredible storyteller. It's so powerful the way that you wrote some stories in your books, the way that you're sharing it now. God has really gifted you with that, and that's part of your purpose in life being that storyteller. So, how did you begin to uncover the purpose that God had for you in life?   Margaret Feinberg: (12:12 - 15:09) That's such a great question, so, I'm going to answer that a couple different folds. Can I do that? So, the first answer is all of our purpose is the same. It is to love God, love others, and delight in Him forever.   That is the purpose of all of our lives, and so, that is the answer. At the same time, a lot of what I think you're saying is purpose is a little bit about vocation. Is that right?   And so, we need to recognize that as believers that this idea that somehow our vocation or what we do is our purpose and is supposed to give us meaning and value to God has really only been around for the last 50 to 75 years and largely established in the American culture. But for thousands of years, that has never been the case. And so, what that does is that for a lot of us, when we don't kind of understand that it puts a heavier weight on the job. The vocation that we do to carry all of this burden of purpose, fulfillment, meaning, ordained by God.   I mean, that becomes like a heavy burden for a single job or vocation to carry that it was never meant to. Right? And so, again, back to what is our purpose? It is loving God, loving others, and delighting. And that never changes no matter whether you are raising littles, whether you are whatever the title on your business card, if you still have those, or identification on social, whatever it is. But that never changes.   And so, I think that we have to step back and recognize that. Now, I do understand that I am in a role in which my job provides spiritual meaning. And that is delightful.   And I am super grateful for that. But in that, my spiritual meaning is still not about what books I write or podcasts or any of that nonsense. It's all about how I'm living in my community and real one-to-one relationships that are done privately and never published on social media.   That is the real life. And so, I just want to encourage everyone out there to think that that job is the thing. The job is never the thing.   Now, don't let that distract you because what do you do when you're retired? What do you do if you can't do that job? But if you are in a vocation, if you are in a role, that to understand, yes, God can use that, and to invite Holy Spirit into that space, but to make sure that we don't find our identity in that.   Because that's a short runway. That's going to end at one point. And to really ground ourselves into the eternal and what does not have an end and what will sustain us from our first breath until our last.   Laura Dugger: (15:10 - 16:38) Wow, I love how you put all of that. And so, I'm going to share a story, so, bear with me because you may not be aware, but back in 2013, our lives first crossed paths. So, back then, we were pregnant with our first child.   And my husband, Mark, and I went with my parents to the American Association of Christian Counselors conference in Nashville. And you were one of those keynote speakers at the Opera Land Hotel. And I was just mesmerized by every word you shared.   And so, I see why people write about you, and they say you're one of America's most beloved Bible teachers, because you were so endearing from the first word spoken. But at the time, you were battling cancer. And yet you were still willing to generously and joyfully share about the goodness of the Lord and the ways that we encounter Him in nature through olives and bees and so on.   But the one other thing that has stuck with me for over a decade is when you encourage the audience of probably thousands of people in attendance, that if we don't know what to be thankful for today, be thankful for nose hairs. So, do you remember that?   Margaret Feinberg: (16:39 - 19:24) I do. Yeah, that defined gratitude in the little things and in the heart. I do.   And the reason I said that, because without context, that sounds really, really strange. But whenever anybody who's out there and is walking through any medical, whether that's mental health or physical challenges, one of the difficulties is in the medical world, they don't tell you everything that's coming. And so, there are all these hidden surprises, and you can read about it, and you can WebMD it, and you can read online, and all of them are just going to say you're going to die tomorrow.   We already know that. We know we shouldn't Google these things, right? But no matter what you're walking through, there are things that people just don't tell you.   And so, I knew that going through chemotherapy, I would lose my hair. And sure enough, in 10 days, it was all falling out. Nobody told me that that included all my hair, including my nose hairs.   And so, what I had to learn the hard way is when you don't have nose hairs, like kind of what holds anything that's liquid in your nose, it just falls out. And so, my encouragement was to everybody, you don't have anything to give thanks to God for today. Give thanks for your nose hairs.   And just a light way of saying, you know, even when you're walking through the darkness, and I know some of your listeners and your viewers are, you are in dark seasons. And if that is you, I just want to say, I get you. I get it.   I have battled cancer. I have battled autoimmune. I have battled being sick for years.   I have battled being embezzled. I have battled surviving a destructive pastor. I know suffering and pain.   But even when we're in the darkness, we are a people who poke holes in the darkness until it bleeds light. And that's who we are. And gratitude is just one of those tools that helps us do that.   So, I just want to encourage you today, like whatever it takes for you. And there is something in this concept of joy. And I don't quite understand.   I can't quite wrap my head around it. But joy is something that you can give away even when you don't have it. And in the process of giving away joy when you don't have it, somehow our capacity for joy expands.   It's a strange equation in God's economy. It does not add up. It does not make sense.   But whether it's, you know, climbing in an MRI machine and saying, man, has anybody praised God from this square inch today? Whether it's showing up and giving just a simple gift to someone else, whether it's writing the note, whether it's encouraging someone else, even in our own pain. When we do that, our capacity for joy just grows bigger and bigger.   Laura Dugger: (19:25 - 21:58) And now a brief message from our sponsor. Do you have a bucket list of travel destinations? Or maybe you have a special event coming up like a big anniversary, a honeymoon, or even just that first trip to Europe?   If so, you need to call DreamCellar Travel. 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Will you share some insight into what you've been learning about the Holy Spirit, especially from all your research from your latest book? As you mentioned, it's entitled The God You Need to Know.   Margaret Feinberg: (21:59 - 25:44) Yeah, I'm super excited about this book and Bible study. I've had a lot of questions about the Holy Spirit since I was a little girl. I remember reading the Bible and thinking, Jesus, He's so real.   He's so human. That I can recognize, and I get the picture of God on the throne, all powerful and sovereign. But when I think about the Holy Spirit, I'd be like, I'm struggling here a little bit.   And growing up in Southern Baptist and Methodist and Episcopal and non-denominational and charismatic, I got little pieces of Holy Spirit, but I just kind of struggled. And I think one of the reasons I struggled is that often, maybe like you, when I ask questions about Holy Spirit, I was like, “Well, you need to go read the book of Acts and read Acts 2.” And that's that beautiful moment of Pentecost where the spirit comes in and it's like a violent wind and tongues of fire.   They descend and people start speaking in other languages and other people hear they're declaring the glories of God. And then all of a sudden 3,000 people get saved. I think that is awesome.   But that doesn't look like my every day. So, I'm not quite sure. And so, for the last few years, I've been struggling to write this book.   And when I really came alive was with a scholar by the name of Jack Levison, and he focused in on the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament. And all of a sudden that changed everything for me. Because what happens is if we jump to Acts, and particularly Acts 2 to understand Holy Spirit, it would be like showing up on your wedding day and being like, this is who you're marrying.   And you're like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I don't know this person. Like we haven't courted. We haven't dated.”   I don't, what, what, what? And yet that's often what we do as believers when we're directing people. And so, I took a deep dive into Holy Spirit throughout the Old Testament, looking at Genesis where Holy Spirit hovers over the waters, the chaos, the darkness, looking at how Holy Spirit hovers over our lives and how that's consistent with God, as in the book of Deuteronomy, as well as Jesus in the New Testament, that hovering like a, like a hen, I wanted to gather the children.   And you start to see this through it. You start to look in the lives of Bezalel, who was the first person who was filled with Holy Spirit, to do what to make and to make those, you know, the tabernacle and to lead an entire guild of artisans. We see the life of the Spirit in Daniel, where all of a sudden Nebuchadnezzar on multiple occasions is saying the Spirit of God is in him.   We have somebody who is literally running around like a wild animal at certain points in his life, who is still recognizing the power of Holy Spirit. I think it's the word in Hebrew is Ketria. We start seeing it in the life of Ezekiel, where the Holy Spirit is lifting him up, giving him new perspectives.   And what's cool is that once you start to recognize the rule of Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, you arrive at Acts 2 and you go, of course, it would happen this way. And suddenly for those of us who for maybe we've been hesitant about Holy Spirit, or maybe we've had maybe a lack of teaching or maybe some teaching that was a little bit abusive and was used to manipulate. Like all of a sudden we can back up from that and be like, oh, Holy Spirit, this is you from the beginning of time.   This is so normal. This isn't weird. This is just part of just being a follower of Jesus.   And so, one of the things that I love about this book is it takes the weird out, takes the scary out. It's so just biblically based, especially in the Old Testament. And I think some of your listeners and viewers will be surprised like, whoa, I didn't know that was, what?   That's where? And that's really fun and exciting.   Laura Dugger: (25:45 - 26:14) Absolutely. I think it did bring to light so many things from the Old Testament, like I said, especially. And I think you were even able to share some of your own stories, and that's why we're so often called to remember.   I think when we preserve and document those and share those stories, we can reflect back and remember God nudging us like he did with you, putting a thought in your mind that was not your own. That increases our faith in others, I think, as well.   Margaret Feinberg: (26:14 - 28:25) I think it really, really does. I think that one of the things we have to remember when Holy Spirit, so, in Psalm 139, we know that God knows he made us in the womb. And so, to recognize that all of us are made differently, and my hunches are some listeners right now who are thinking, man, yeah, I know people who talk a lot about Holy Spirit, but that's just not me.   I don't really see or enact or feel Holy Spirit. And so, first of all to you, I want to say I don't feel Holy Spirit either. I've been to a ton of churches and conferences, and the person on the stage will say, man, do you feel the Holy Spirit here?   And I'll be like, nope, nope, not at all. So, I'm not a feeler. But what I can do in those moments is I can acknowledge with my head, Holy Spirit is here, because we know that as part of the Trinity, Father, Son, Spirit, Holy Spirit is here.   And then secondly, to recognize that like Psalm, you know, that describes that He knew us in the womb, that we are all different. We know today that there's a neurodiversity, right? So, some people learn audio, some people visual, some people like myself, ADD, ADHD.   And God knows that, like the Creator did not make a mistake. And so, wouldn't it make sense that the Holy Spirit, who knows us as the spirit of a living God, would interact with us in different ways? I have an e-newsletter, and I've surveyed, you know, thousands of people, how they recognize the spirit, and it's just so diverse.   Some are like me, a thought pops back in my head that is not my own, that causes me to love God, love others, serve others, take risks in godly good ways. For other people, they do feel it. Some people have like a warmth in their body.   Some people kind of just feel like this, this just comfort or peace, like liquid love that envelops them. Some people recognize God and the Holy Spirit through nature. And so, I listen to this, and I think, doesn't that make sense that God and Holy Spirit would know us so well that He would know how to communicate with us?   And so, that when we start gathering with other believers and say, “Hey, how is Holy Spirit working in your life?” It starts to get this excitement of recognizing it and celebrating it and making it normal and not weird.   Laura Dugger: (28:28 - 28:48) And I think let's even take that one step further. So, if somebody is listening and they currently have trouble identifying the spirit's role or God's direction or Jesus's voice in their life, how would you encourage them with even first steps to grow in attention and recognition of His voice and leading?   Margaret Feinberg: (28:49 - 34:09) Goodness, that's such a great question. Something that's really changed my life in the last few months is my friend, Drake. He's a Young Life leader here.   And he said, Margaret, when I'm training people how to recognize Holy Spirit, he says, “I and the kids get a journal and write one question down for Holy Spirit each day. The question could be about purpose, identity, Holy Spirit, what's on your heart, Holy Spirit, who do I serve today? And write that one question down.”   That's it. That's all we're doing. And then throughout the day, return to that one question in prayer again and again.   And then pay attention to conversations that suddenly you have, Bible passages that flutter through your mind, the sermon that's given, conversations with other believers. Like just pay attention. And it's amazing.   And then the next day or that night, jot down whatever happens. The next day, change the question or keep the same question. And just start changing the posture of your life to pay attention to that one question.   And I think you're going to start to see and encounter some things. It may not happen quickly. It may take a few weeks or even months, but it will happen.   I think I was thinking about this just this morning. I haven't shared this with anybody. But in some ways, like people are like, I don't recognize Holy Spirit.   It's kind of like my friends who are birders. Okay. Some people super into birding.   And I know there are birds. I mean, occasionally I'll see a bird out the window, but birders have a whole different mentality. They slow down.   They pay attention. And they have some tools like binoculars to be able to look and to see. And it's the same thing about paying attention to Holy Spirit.   We've got to slow down, pay attention. And maybe the tool is just asking Holy Spirit one question a day. But suddenly you'll start to see and recognize.   Can I give you a fun story? Please. Okay.   So, just at Easter came around and I was probably a couple weeks before and they're having this crazy good sale at Target on some new releases. So, I'm at the Target website early in the morning before they sell out. And I saw a purse and I bought myself a few things.   But I saw a purse and I immediately thought of my friend Janella. And so, I was just like, I'm just going to buy this for her. Now, let me be clear.   I've never bought a purse for her before. I don't really carry around a ton of purses. I'm a Apple pay, like keep it light.   Like it's just not my thing. But put it in the cart, send it to her. So, I get a text from her about a week or two later.   And she goes, how did you know? Did I tell you about my Easter meltdown? And I said, no, I didn't know.   And she tells me, and I had known this, that her mother had passed away last year. What I didn't know is every single year, since she was a little girl for Easter, her mom would buy her a dress and a purse. And this was the first Easter without her mom.   And she could justify financially buying the dress, but not the purse. And all of a sudden this purse, which wasn't a normal purse. She's like, this is an Easter purse.   I was like, I don't know that, but okay. Arrived. And she said, I just, I just cried because I knew that the Lord saw me.   He heard me. You know, he was with me, part of his kingdom. And so, she says, but here's the thing.   The purse matched my dress perfectly. And you start to see that happen. And I didn't hear a voice from God say, go buy your friend a purse.   I was just like, “Hey, I've been praying every day, a single thing from Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit, will you order my steps?” And then you see something that you couldn't orchestrate on your own in 500 years happen.   And you go, that is the work of Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit in the New Testament, it's parakletos. It means advocate.   It can be translated comforter, advisor, barrister. For those of you watch too many British shows like I do, you know, the legal counsel. But if I were to kind of break that down from just biblical words, here's how we know it's the Holy Spirit.   Number one, Holy Spirit will remind you: God loves you. God sees you. God hears you.   And you're part of His kingdom. And what happened in that story was both of us experienced that. God loves, He sees, He hears, and we're part of His kingdom.   And so, that is the thrilling part about life in the Spirit. It's not so I feel good or I have little things that happen. It's about being part of God's kingdom on this earth, living out the life that Christ describes and designed for us.   And so, we cannot do that apart from Holy Spirit. And also, you may notice I haven't been using the term the Holy Spirit because we wouldn't say I talked to the God today. I talked to Jesus.   And Holy Spirit is a person; a person you can have a relationship with. And just as you can have a relationship with Christ and talk to Christ, you can do the same with Holy Spirit who is, again, paracletes, your advisor, your comforter, your helper. Why would you not tap into that?   Why would you want to spend a life missing out on the fullness of that?   Laura Dugger: (34:10 - 36:48) Oh, that's good, and I'll have to try and apply that and refer to Holy Spirit rather than I even did it there, the Holy Spirit. I'm thinking in the book of John, I love the amplified version where it says, “one of the things to describe Holy Spirit is standby.” And I've thought of that so many times because I love looking up definitions and seeing exactly what that means.   And it's just the immediacy of the help available. And that's been a way that I've experienced Him in my life especially the short prayers of help, please help now. Or if I need direction, a lot of times it comes in parenting for me, like, I'm not sure which way to go.   Can you give me discernment right now? And He's immediately available. So, I would say my own personal experience, it's a lot of what you've mentioned, definitely through reading the Bible that I feel like He speaks so much.   You're like, well, bring the words off the page. Journaling is such a practical way. And I'll link to our friend Chris Allen's episode just about hearing from God and training our kids on how they can do the same.   Just those thoughts that they're not always from us, but we're processing thoughts that are given to us. But one other thing, so, this is inspired from your book. You mentioned about dreams and just asking Holy Spirit to speak to you through dreams.   So, in our life currently, one of our daughters is going through some health issues and we were launched into having to do this FODMAP diet. And it's not that big of a deal, but I had never heard of it before. And it limits and restricts quite a few things.   So, the immediate need of that seemed a little bit overwhelming. We're kind of in a busy season and completely revamping everything our family eats all day. I've been preoccupied and kind of consumed with that.   So, twice this week, because in my quiet time I felt like God just kept saying, bring it to me, come to me with this, ask me the questions. And so, I've been journaling and I feel like He's been responding with Scripture. But the last two nights in a row, I've woken up with a recipe in mind for our family.   And that has never happened before. But you are the one who challenged us just to say, just ask. And that was probably, probably started asking over a month ago.   So, thank you.   Margaret Feinberg: (36:49 - 40:32) Wow. I love it. And you know what?   That makes me want to ask. Does that make sense? Like there's this excitement and there's this joy.   When you share about how Holy Spirit is working in your life, I'm like, I want that too. And that's just, yeah, I think that so often we forget who is with us.   The person, the person of Holy Spirit is with us. We don't have to keep all this striving and straining. And man, I got a life hack this on my own.   You know, there is this availability of the power and the presence of the person of Holy Spirit, the spirit of the living God. One thing I want to note on the Trinity, just so that I don't, I don't want anybody to think, oh, she's just cutting out one part of the Trinity. No.   Trinity is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. A couple of things on that. Number one, often, and part of the emphasis on the Holy Spirit, a little bit more in looking at this in the Old Testament, is when we see things in groupings of three, we tend to think that the third one listed tends to be lesser than or third place.   Right. And yet Father, Son and Spirit are equal. And what we see throughout the Bible is we have to remember that where there is one, all are present.   And so, like in creation, we see God take the lead. But, you know, Holy Spirit is mentioned in Genesis 1 to Jesus using the reference of we is there. And so, we start to see that the word, I think it's the word perichoresis is this term that describes the Trinity in a dance.   And so, at different parts of Scripture, we'll see one member of the Trinity take the lead, but the others are always present, whether it's, you know, Jesus taking the lead in the Gospels. But we see the Holy Spirit descending like a dove. We see God saying, this is my son and whom I am pleased.   Well, please listen to Him. And so, to recognize that, but also to recognize, again, like this, this reality that Holy Spirit is in us and with us. Like, wow, that starts to change everything.   So, all of a sudden, and you say, “It's no big deal changing the way your family eats. Can I just say that is an enormous deal. The time that it takes to prepare the food, the thinking, the thought space, the bad recipes, it is so big.”   So, you can try to minimize that. But I'm just going to say, “First of all, I'm glad there's a way forward, but I'm sorry, because that is massive. And it's a lot.”   And Holy Spirit wants to meet us there. Remember Genesis 1:2, “In the beginning, God created the heavenly earth and the earth was formless and void.” Tohu wavohu in the Hebrew.   “And the spirit was hovering over.” That word is merechefet. And it means to hover, to brood like a mama eagle.   One rabbi translated it as to flutter. And what is the spirit fluttering? Remember in the Bible, sorry to go to teaching mode, but whenever someone is introduced in scripture, the introduction is the most important.   We see that in the life of Saul. He literally is hiding in baggage and can't find his own donkeys. And it plays out that way, right?   So, how is Holy Spirit introduced? Could have entered any place and comes on the scene hovering over the chaos, the uncertainty, and the unknown. And so, here you are in that place of uncertainty and unknown, a little chaotic.   And what is Holy Spirit? Here's a recipe.    Doing what? Reminding you, you are loved by God. You are seen by God.   You are heard by God. And you are part of this kingdom. Man, when we start to share these stories, it just, oh, it creates this hunger to experience and know the spirit more.   Laura Dugger: (40:32 - 42:02) It does, and it's so humbling, just his loving kindness.    I want to make sure that you're up to date with our latest news. We have a new website.   You can visit thesavvysauce.com and see all of the latest updates. You may remember Francie Heinrichson from episode 132, where we talked about pursuing our God-given dreams. She is the amazing businesswoman who has carefully designed a brand-new website for Savvy Sauce Charities.   And we are thrilled with the final product. So, I hope you check it out. There you're going to find all of our podcasts, now with show notes and transcriptions listed, a scrapbook of various previous guests, and an easy place to join our email list to receive monthly encouragement and questions to ask your loved ones, so that you can have your own practical chats for intentional living.   You will also be able to access our donation button or our mailing address for sending checks that are tax deductible, so that you can support the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and help us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. So, make sure you visit thesavvysauce.com.    Are there any other stories that come to mind to think of Holy Spirit being alive and moving and working in people's lives today?   Margaret Feinberg: (42:03 - 46:15) Oh, I'll give you one that I just found. You know what's so funny? Again, when you start to use the prayer prompts, when you start to do these just like a burger, all of a sudden you're like, oh my goodness, I didn't know how many birds there were.   So, went over to our friend's house. It was somebody at church. We actually, they weren't our friends at that point.   We noticed that when they came to our church, the son is on the spectrum. And so, in Sunday school class would often just stare at the wall in the corner by himself, not interact a whole lot, and their daughter. And so, my husband said, hey, let's bring a meal over to them.   And they invited us to stay for dinner. And so, the son comes in and he's probably maybe nine years old, wrapped up in a blanket, like a little burrito. And he won't make any eye contact with us.   You know, the mom's like, say, “Hello to Margaret.” Won't interact. Kind of woombas around, disappears, comes through a few times.   Finish eating. We go out in the living room. And the mom starts telling the story that she was exhausted as a mom.   She was completely burnt out. And she just said, “You know what? I'm going to the reservoir and I'm going to go paddle boarding.”   Just take a few minutes for myself. So, she goes out. She's paddle boarding.   All of a sudden she sees like a piece of paper on the surface of the water. She looks down and she goes, what is that? So, she picks it up.   Turns out to be a QR code to the zoo. Now, she doesn't know if it's used trash or what, but she's like, I'm going to keep this. She paddles some more, sees another piece of paper.   It's another QR code to the zoo. She's like, maybe they blew away from the, I don't, so, she grabs it. And she prays and she says, Lord, now you know that we're a family of four.   So, if we're really supposed to go to the zoo, we need four of these. Keeps paddle boarding. Finds two more.   And so, she comes home and says, “Guys, we're going to try to go to the zoo. I don't even know if these work.” But next day goes to the zoo, scans them.   Boop, boop, boop, boop. They all work. So, they go to the zoo.   So, they're walking through. And all of a sudden, the son comes upon a display of red pandas. And he just stops in his tracks.   And he stares and he watches. And the rest of the family, you know, the sister and the dad want to go on and they do. But he just says, “Mom, can we stay here?”   And so, he stays there for several hours just staring in this strange connection. He's never had, Mom had never seen anything like this with the red pandas. And so, she's telling me this story.   And suddenly I look around their living room and I realize there is panda paraphernalia everywhere. She looks at her son and says, “Honey, why don't you go put on your panda outfit?” Disappears, comes back in the panda outfit.   And all of a sudden, he's looking at us. He's talking to us. He's engaging us.   He goes over to his parents and paws them like a panda. And all of a sudden is snuggling with them. And she says that one encounter at the zoo changed their relationship with their son.   She says there are days that my son will get completely overwhelmed and start having a meltdown. And she'll use panda language and go up to him and say, “Well, you know that pandas eat 13 hours a day. Maybe you need a snack.”   And it is provided this connection and this new language for them as a family that they never had before. All because she went paddle boarding at the reservoir and pieces of paper started floating on the surface of the water. Friends, this is the work and power and presence of Holy Spirit.   Reminding us we are loved by God. We are seen by God. We are heard by God.   And we are part of this kingdom. And for your listeners, that may be strange stories of paper. And that may seem really odd.   But, man, I read a book that talks about Jesus saying, “Hey, go check out the fish.” And all of a sudden a coin to pay taxes comes out of his mouth. I read a book that declares that, you know, he is the alpha and the omega.   He is the beginning and the end. He knows where we are. He knows what we need.   And He wants to intercept. And sometimes that shows up like recipes in your brain in the morning.   Laura Dugger: (46:16 - 47:27) Amen, sister. And you can keep sharing as many stories as you want. But one more.   As I was reading your book, it was actually over Easter weekend. And at that time we had some tornadoes that were passing through the Midwest where we live. And in the middle of the night, we're all up.   We're in the basement. And once the sirens ceased, we got our girls back to bed. And we came and I just wondered, we came back to bed and I thought, is this just going to be for a few moments?   Is it going to happen again? Are we going to be up all night and need to take cover? So, with those concerns on my mind, I crawled back into bed.   And, you know, cortisol is kind of rushing through. So, I picked up your book to read. And my eyes fell to the words you quoted from part of Isaiah 31:5.   So, I specifically fell to this where it says, “He will shield it and deliver it. He will pass over it and will rescue it.” And I fell asleep well knowing that I could receive comfort from Holy Spirit, that the storm had passed for the night and God was shielding our family from it.   And indeed He did. They ceased.   Margaret Feinberg: (47:28 - 47:42) Isn't that incredible? I mean, we talk about I mean, just that's the word of God and the power of Holy Spirit, like speaking right in that moment in that exact situation. That is awesome.   Absolutely awesome. I love it.   Laura Dugger: (47:43 - 48:17) So, I love just Holy Spirit is even working through the words on your pages. I want you to be encouraged. I know you've prayed over this resource, but it's so incredible.   Somebody once said that books are little missionaries. And it's so true throughout the world. You have no idea who's cuddled up in bed reading these words and getting to encounter him.   So, thank you for all of your work for this. But Margaret, do you have any other practical tips that you want to impart to us so that each of us can cultivate the fruit of spirit in our lives?   Margaret Feinberg: (48:18 - 50:39) Yeah, I would say, you know, if you're if you're new to this and this idea, you know, pick up a copy of The Gods You Need to Know. There's also a Bible study. I am passionate about doing this in community.   The Holy Spirit, we often in the Americana church, think of our little personal private relationship with Jesus. And that's not church history. That's not the work of God.   Since the beginning of time, it has always been through relationships and community and recognizing that each of us has something to bring to the table in relationship with God and each other and gifts and talents and insights. I am in my questions. I think I referred to this later or earlier about, you know, I surveyed a bunch of people in my newsletter just about, hey, so, how do you recognize Holy Spirit?   One lady responded and she said, “Well, I recognize Holy Spirit because whenever I'm lost, I ask Holy Spirit for directions, and I just know where to go.” And she goes and it happens over and over in, you know, neighborhoods when I'm driving, when I'm going places. And I thought, okay, so, first I'll just be honest. My first thought was that's weird. I haven't heard that before.   And we assign anything weird that we aren't familiar with. And then I thought a little longer. I thought, man, I want her on my team.   I want her on my team because I get lost all the time. And I think that at times, sometimes we encounter people who encounter the Spirit differently than us. Remember that neurodiversity, but to recognize living in relationship, hearing how Holy Spirit works in different, sharing those stories.   There's something contagious and powerful in it. So, I would say definitely pursue Holy Spirit in relationship with others. Get together with others.   Start talking about this. Start praying together. Holy Spirit, we want to know you.   You know, it's okay to say, Holy Spirit, in the past, I've seen really unhealthy things. Or nobody's really taught me about you. But I trust that as the Spirit of the living God that you want to reveal yourself.   Just start praying, Holy Spirit, I want all of you. See what happens over the course of a week or two of praying that.   And what you become aware of. What Bible passages flutter through your mind. What conversations you suddenly stumble upon.   What answers to things you've been plagued with suddenly come. I trust God that if you ask and you honestly pursue, God will show up and show off.   Laura Dugger: (50:41 - 51:45) I completely agree. And now I'm curious to look up. I feel like the Lord has kind of put on my mind the word weird this year a few times.   Because truly, when you think of what he did, even in the Old Testament, think of Noah, just like, okay, I'm obeying. I'm putting nails in this wood for never seeing rain. It's weird what we're called to sometimes.   And I think that's what can make me hesitate for obedience sometimes. Like, that feels weird. Or I don't want people to think I'm weird.   So, I'm going to look up the definition of weird. I'd love to read it to you. Okay, so, I just looked up the definition of weird.   And it says, suggesting something supernatural or uncanny. And I think we should reframe the word weird. And when we're invited into something weird by supernatural God of the universe, that's an incredible invitation, like you say, to adventure.   So, I hope we can embrace the weird.   Margaret Feinberg: (51:47 - 54:41) And to recognize that feeling of, I don't want to do this. This feels strange. That is universal.   That is not you. That is not unique. And for all of our listeners and viewers, I have it.   Everybody has it. When we're trying to discern, you know, if something is prompted by the Holy Spirit, number one, is this, does this align with scripture? And does it align with the character of God?   Does it increase my dependence on God? Which means it's probably going to go against my natural instinct, which unfortunately is pretty self-word rather than outward. Does it cause me to love God and love others more?   And so, of course, Holy Spirit is going to be working in this expansive ground to pull us away from our self-word direction outward. And that is always going to be stretching and feel strange. And sometimes we're not going to see the outcome.   And we've got to become comfortable with that. We are not responsible for the outcome. We are responsible for obedience.   Some time ago, I swim a lot. And I just felt just in my gut, like, talk to the person in the lane next to you. And so, I go out swimming, and he's next to me, and I'm like, okay.   And so, I started this conversation with this elderly gentleman. And I'll just be honest. It was more like a non-versation.   I mean, we talked about sports ball teams and the weather and nothing. I really cared. Nothing deep.   Nothing meaningful. And on one hand, maybe I misheard. Okay.   But no harm, no foul. I mean, I showed kindness to a stranger. Loved others.   Like, there's no, like, okay. You know, on the other hand, I will never know what might have happened. Maybe he felt left alone.   Maybe he felt seen. But the outcome doesn't matter. And so, there are going to be times that we step out, and we see it, and we encounter it, and it's so exciting.   And there's going to be other times that we go to that thing, and we go, Lord, I didn't even know what that was. But maybe that was about quick obedience. You know, almost like building a muscle, getting stronger to say, you did it then.   I'm going to keep challenging. I'm going to give you opportunities to do this again and again. Because I want you on the front lines of, you know, eyes are searching to and fro for people who are, you know, obedient, quick to respond, that Holy Spirit wants to use.   And so, know that not seeing a result, totally normal. Keep going. Keep going.   Because you will see responses sometimes. And it is awesome. And in part of that, it's almost like building a muscle that I think God is so gracious and so loving kind that he will show you, like, quick outcomes sometimes when you respond to that little impulse to keep you going.   But there are going to be times you're not going to see them, but he's still at work. Because, again, you may be one of 17 people in a long chain where the fruit or the outcome as part of God's kingdom is still coming. And after a while, it's fine to be number 4, 7, 9.   You don't always have to be number 17.   Laura Dugger: (54:42 - 55:06) That's so good. That is such the biblical principle of being faithful with little. And then sometimes He allows us to be faithful with much.   And, Margaret, this is not your only resource that you've written for all of us to enjoy. Can you share some of your other resources and what's available or what you've learned that we may learn if we pick up a copy?   Margaret Feinberg: (55:06 - 56:31) Yeah. You know, I've definitely the most passive. I just gave four years of my life to this book and Bible study.   I do a ridiculous amount of research, so, I'm very, very slow. So, top would be The God You Need to Know book and Bible study. But I think another one, and you referenced it earlier, is a book called Fight Back with Joy, and it's also a Bible study.   And it just takes a look. You know, it tells a little bit about my cancer story, but it's really about anybody who's battling anything. You know, sometimes in life we pick the battles, and sometimes the battles pick us.   And sometimes that's in your marriage, maybe a custody battle. It may be a health issue. It may be a financial calamity.   It may be the loss of a business. There's just so much in a strange relationship with a kid that you love so much. And in that darkness, you know, it's so easy to sink.   And this book and study is just, it shows that more than whimsy, joy is the weapon we use to fight life's battles. And gives just tons of practical tactics on how to enact that and what that looks like, and how, most importantly, how to rally around others in a healthy, beautiful way when they are in the midst of that. I think one of the failures of the church today is to really equip and train believers of every size and form of how to love others well in the midst of their pain.   What to say, what not to say, how to give, how to support. And this book and resource really does that well.   Laura Dugger: (56:32 - 56:43) Oh, so grateful for all of those. We'll make sure and add a link in the show notes. And if we want to connect or follow you after today's conversation, where would you like to direct us online?   Margaret Feinberg: (56:44 - 57:09) You can find me at my website at Margaret Feinberg. I do my most loving of my people, I'll just be honest, through my e-newsletter. I mean, I sit down, I pray over, I pour my heart and my life into that.   It's quiet. Nobody ever sees it. I am also on socials, on Instagram, at Facebook, at MA Feinberg, at Margaret Feinberg.   But I would love to connect with you. And if anybody wants to email, my email is hello@margaretfeinberg.com.   Laura Dugger: (57:09 - 57:26) Love it. Thank you for sharing all of that. And you may be aware that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment.   And so, as my final question for you today, Margaret, what is your savvy sauce?   Margaret Feinberg: (57:27 - 58:05) My savvy sauce is waking up every day and asking the Holy Spirit one question. When I don't know what to pray, I just say, “Holy Spirit, order my steps.” And if you will do this, you will do this for just 15 days.   I have a belief. It may just change the course of your life. The great part, it takes less than 30 seconds.   This is not doing heavy lifting. This is not time consuming, man. If you're raising those littles and you are overwhelmed, if you're running a business and you are overwhelmed, something very simple like this can change everything.   Laura Dugger: (58:06 - 58:10) So good. And you are so obviously connected to the vine, to the Lord. And I just want you to receive this, the fruit of the spirit.   I have experienced every single one in this conversation from engaging with you today. You are loving, joy, peace, patient, kind, good, faithful, gentle, and self-controlled. And all wrapped into one.   So, praise the Lord for the way He made you. You are an absolute delight. I have enjoyed this so much.   Thank you for being my guest.   Margaret Feinberg: (58:10 - 58:11) What a privilege and joy. Grateful for you.   Laura Dugger: (58:11 - 1:02:30) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.    Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.    We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.    That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.    This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.    Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.    And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.    First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.    You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.    We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.    And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.    And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Send us a textPastor Johnnie preaches a message from the book of Joel, chapter 2.Subscribe to my YouTube Channel and Like my Facebook page!Hit the

Luke 19:1-10Removing the Barriers: Overcoming the Obstacles to Intentional Connection with GodFirst Methodist Church of Opelika is an exciting, historic, and growing Methodist church that is inviting our community to find and follow the Spirit-led life in Jesus. Founded in 1837, First Opelika has a rich history of influencing and impacting families in the Opelika/Auburn and surrounding community. The church is currently in a season of revitalization and is laying the foundation for effective ministry in the next season of her life as an independent Methodist church.For more information, check us out at www.firstopelika.org or www.facebook.com/firstopelika

A key figure who accelerated the historical crisis for both the Tanners (who left the group in 1962) and Pauline's church was Wes Walters, a Presbyterian minister from Marissa, Illinois. Walters was asked to write an article on Mormons for Christianity Today. His detailed research focused on testing Joseph Smith's claims against tangible historical records, particularly those surrounding the First Vision. Walters reasoned that while you couldn't prove whether Smith spoke to God, you could prove whether he was standing in a given place on a given day. https://youtu.be/gPDG7CA9n-0 Don't miss our other conversations with Sandra: https://gospeltangents.com/people/sandra-tanner Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved   Walters used his expertise in church history (specifically Baptist, Methodist, and Presbyterian records in the New York area) to investigate Joseph Smith's claim that the First Vision was prompted by an intense local revival where ministers were fighting over converts. Walters' findings: the great revival and the subsequent fighting over converts among the denominations did not happen in 1820. Instead, significant church growth (hundreds of converts) occurred between 1823, 1824, and 1825. This discovery forced a complete recalibration of the chronology, as it meant the First Vision and the subsequent Moroni visits leading up to the plates could not logically fit the existing timeline. Walters' small pamphlet, New Light on Mormon Origins, caused such a disruption that it "threw the Mormon Church into a tizzy," forcing LDS historians to travel back East to conduct their own major studies. Walters is credited by Sandra Tanner as being a key factor in pushing the LDS Church into serious historical scholarship. Magic Connection: A Bridge Too Far While Walters' dating research was shocking, his discovery of the 1826 trial documents cemented the crisis. Pauline's group, following David Whitmer, already accepted the story that Joseph Smith used a "rock" in his "hat" to translate the Book of Mormon, aligning with the "seer stone" narrative. However, the 1826 trial confirmed Joseph Smith's involvement in money digging, associating the seer stone with divination and magic practices—the occult that the Christians in Pauline's group firmly rejected. The group found this connection irreconcilable: They questioned why God would use an instrument associated with magic. They noted that Joseph Smith seemed to bypass the instruments God allegedly supplied (the plates) and continued using the same rock used in divination. The transition from seeking treasure (magic) to seeking revelation (religion) looked too "fishy," suggesting it was merely a "switching of what you're using this stone for". The fact that the same individuals involved in drawing magic circles and searching for treasure were the same first converts to Mormonism was deeply troubling. Pauline Hancock's Church Voted to Disband The Church of Christ (Bible Book of Mormon), founded and led by Pauline Hancock, emerged as a unique splinter group focused on returning to what they believed was "1830 Mormonism"—a faith centered purely on the Bible and the Book of Mormon, devoid of later revelations (like the Doctrine and Covenants past 1830) and "Aaronic, Melchizedek Priesthood ideas". However, this small community, known for meeting in the “Basement church” in Independence, ultimately discovered that even their foundational scripture, the Book of Mormon, could not withstand intense historical scrutiny, leading to its dissolution years after Pauline Hancock's death in 1962. The Vote & Dissolution Faced with this overwhelming historical evidence, the Church of Christ had to make a choice regarding their "litmus test"—the Book of Mormon. In 1972, approximately a decade after Pauline's death (she died in the summer of 1962), the church took a formal vote on whether to retain the Book of Mormon as scriptur...

Rev Jon Reynolds preaches on Psalm 23 The post “Faith At Any Age: Follow The Light” appeared first on First United Methodist Church-Brighton & Whitmore Lake.

On a weekend highlighting the persecution of Christian Church, the sermon aligns with others speaking on the International Day of Prayer for the Persecuted Church. Scripture: Hebrews 10:32-39

The Sand Creek Massacre is not just Cheyenne and Arapaho history, it is Methodist history. From the Nov./Dec. 2025 issue of response magazine.

Today, Pastor Al Dagel peeks into John's Gospel to see where this message will take us.  It is pretty exciting!

Doane University and Nebraska Methodist College will partner on a new accelerated nursing pathway to help address health care shortages across the state. The official program begins in fall 2026, but leaders said the two institutions already share many students.

Today, Pastor Al Dagel helps us to see that even unbelievers may sometimes speak the truth, because truth is always true!  There is more to think about, so please listen now and share this with your friends.

Although raised Methodist, Susan Sucher began attending an Assemblies of God youth group in her teens, which is where her faith really took off. As she and her husband were discerning marriage, they were also processing together some of the inconsistencies they'd been noticing in Pentecostal theology, particularly when it came to the Lord's Supper. She decided to explore the Catholic Church, and was surprised to find that it answered many of her questions. While she initially objected to Church teaching on contraception and women's ordination, even those began to make sense to her, and she knew she had to become Catholic.

In this episode, Nathan and Cameron dive deep into the theological and cultural earthquakes shaking the global church, beginning with the dramatic shift in the Anglican Communion as the Church of England appoints Dame Sarah Mullally as Archbishop of Canterbury—a move many global Anglicans see as proof that the English church has abandoned biblical authority. With sharp insight and theological nuance, they unpack the growing divide between progressive Western Anglicanism and the vibrant, Scripture-centered Global South, drawing powerful parallels to the recent Methodist split. The conversation explores not only gender and sexuality debates but the deeper issue of biblical authority, orthodoxy, and faithfulness to historic Christianity. Nathan and Cameron also react to Canon Press's $10 million offer to buy Christianity Today, analyzing what these events reveal about the realignment of authority, mission, and truth in the modern church. Perfect for Christians seeking thoughtful, Reformed, and intellectually rigorous discussion on current events in theology and the church.DONATE LINK: https://toltogether.com/donate BOOK A SPEAKER: https://toltogether.com/book-a-speakerJOIN TOL CONNECT: https://toltogether.com/tol-connect TOL Connect is an online forum where TOL listeners can continue the conversation begun on the podcast.

WELCOME!✅ READ THE POST✅ BUY THE BOOK✅ SAVE MONEY WITH UPSIDE!✅ FACEBOOKRecent studies reveal the following attitudes of the unchurched:They believe strong churches are good for communities, but they struggle to connect personally with churches in their own communities.They believe churches are still relevant, but not trustworthy.They are open to friendships through church, but are intimidated because they don't feel welcome.Confusion keeps them away more than rules do.Indifference keeps them from attending worship more than busyness or antagonism do.A spiritual and personal connection is the catalyst for them to participate in worship.They care less about worship style, programming, and denominational preferences than church people do.They have a slightly stronger preference for non-denominational churches when selecting a congregation (unlike church people who tend to choose Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, or other denominations).

In today's episode, Pastor Al Dagel updates us on missionary activities planned for the 2025 Christmas season.   

Patrick trades stories and guidance with listeners grappling with parish commitment, the meaning of suffering, and the requirements for being a Catholic godparent, pulling out honest advice and unexpected insights. A caller on a 15-year dialysis journey sparks raw reflection on perseverance and faith, while questions about biblical references to blood and the Catholic view on Halloween stir sincere, sometimes surprising responses. With warmth and quick humor, Patrick keeps conversations moving, mixing everyday struggles with the promise of grace. Steven - What is your expert opinion on going to different parishes over going to one expert community? (02:22) Joyce - Jewish religion believed in the sacredness of the blood because no one is worthy enough to touch it. (09:27) Jude - Have you ever been to Sandusky, Ohio? (12:07) Mary - Can you explain the sacrifice and offering up of one's pain? How can I practice this? (19:08) Yolanda - A woman told me that she is a godparent for 3 different children and is not baptized. How is that possible? (27:06) Eric - A bunch of Catholics are saying Halloween is bad while others say it is good. What should I do on Halloween as a Catholic? (31:40) Audio: When OBAMA spent $376 million to renovate the White House (from CNN in 2010) (41:16) Laurie - Can a Catholic be a godparent for a Methodist? (43:18) Austin – Does the Catholic Church really that Jews can go to heaven? (48:21)

Luke 7:11-17Removing the Barriers: Overcoming the Obstacles to Intentional Connection with GodFirst Methodist Church of Opelika is an exciting, historic, and growing Methodist church that is inviting our community to find and follow the Spirit-led life in Jesus. Founded in 1837, First Opelika has a rich history of influencing and impacting families in the Opelika/Auburn and surrounding community. The church is currently in a season of revitalization and is laying the foundation for effective ministry in the next season of her life as an independent Methodist church.For more information, check us out at www.firstopelika.org or www.facebook.com/firstopelika

Ann sits down with Beth Ferguson and Dave Whitby from World Hunger Relief. They talk about the organization's mission. Then she visits with old friend Ken Sury. They talk about his role at the Methodist Children's Home. We also get a new Act Locally Live. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Time spent in the Book of Romans is always time spent in the presence of God.  Pastor al Dagel helps us see this today.

DateOctober 26, 2025SynopsisIn this sermon, we scratch the record on apathy and tune our ears to the Spirit's invitation to dream again. We confront the haunting script that “nothing matters” and pivot toward a defiant, embodied hope—where God restores what locusts devour and empowers all people to imagine and co-create a more just, beautiful world. Expect honest lament, bold re-imagining, and a summons to actionable faith that interrupts despair with possibility.About The Local ChurchFor more information about The Local Church, visit our website. Feedback? Questions? Comments? We'd love to hear it. Email Brent at brent@thelocalchurchpbo.org.To invest in what God's doing through The Local Church and help support these podcasting efforts and this movement of God's love, give online here.

Send us a textPastor Johnnie preaches a message on 2 Timothy chapter 2. #sermons #motivation #inspirationFocus on the Basics - Pastor Johnnie Simpson Jr.https://www.instagram.com/pastorjsimpjr/https://x.com/pastorjsimpjrhttps://www.facebook.com/pastorjsimpjr/https://pastorjohnnie.blogspot.com/https://www.threads.com/@pastorjsimpjrhttps://www.tiktok.com/@pastorjohnnie

Rev Jon Reynolds preaches on Mark 10:11-27 The post “Faith At Any Age: There’s Still Time” appeared first on First United Methodist Church-Brighton & Whitmore Lake.

This is the October 26th sermon from the First United Methodist Church in Decatur, Texas. This sermon is taken from Revelation 11:1-19.

Wisdome is again the topic for our Sunday visit with Pastor Al Dagel on Moments of Grace.

Hear about travel to Kansas as the Amateur Traveler discusses a recent trip to Wichita, Kansas, for a conference and a post-conference Old West themed press trip. This week's show is supported by the new Smart Travel Podcast. Travel smarter — and spend less — with help from NerdWallet. Check out Smart Travel ⁠⁠⁠here. Why should you go to Kansas? Chris says, "This is a state that surprised me. I wasn't planning on doing an episode on this trip, but Kansas surprised me. The history and the food were all memorable. The press trip I did was about the Old West, so we visited sites about native americans, the Santa Fe Trail, railroads, cowboys, lawmen, and then later on the manufacturing of airplanes." Start in Wichita. Drive two hours northeast to Council Grove, a historic stop on the Santa Fe Trail. Day 1 – Council Grove and Abilene Kaw Mission State Historic Site: Learn about the Kanza (Kaw) tribe for whom Kansas is named, and the short-lived Methodist mission school built after the tribe ceded land to the U.S. Allegawaho Memorial Heritage Park: The only remaining Kanza-owned land in Kansas, used for powwows and home to a sacred red rock recently repatriated from Lawrence. The Last Chance Store: Once the final supply stop for wagons heading southwest toward Santa Fe. Lunch: Eat at Hays House, founded in 1857 and considered the oldest restaurant west of the Mississippi. ... https://amateurtraveler.com/travel-to-kansas/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Preserving the stories of Black Methodists isn't just history work for Carol Travis, it's a calling. Discover how this cradle Methodist and leader with the African American Methodist Heritage Center ensures generations of vital stories are never forgotten. More information and a full transcript of this conversation are available here. Have a question or comment? … Continue reading "Answering the call to preserve Black Methodist stories"

This is old teaching that hit the mark a long time ago.  Pastor Al Dagel draws from the Bible and a theologian for today's teaching.  

Today, Pastor Al Dagel helps us see how we can be renewed by reading God's Word.  This will take discipline, but you can do it!

In today's episode of "Moments of Grace", Pastor Al Dagel shines a little light on our paths, helping us to choose to live our lives well.  

"Jesus is saying here that our greatest witness to a watching world is not our doctrine. It's not our systems. It's definitely not our buildings. The greatest testimony to a watching world is that God could somehow bring together people who are radically different and make them one."Bishop Keith Cowart was our guest speaker this Sunday, and he taught about the awesome distinctives that make us Free Methodists. His message centered on the profound concept of unity within the church, rooted in the very nature of the Trinity.

In this episode, we're kicking off a new series walking through the story of the Church — from the apostles to the modern day — to uncover where things went right, where things went wrong, and what it means to stay faithful to Jesus' design.--The PursueGOD Truth podcast is the “easy button” for making disciples – whether you're looking for resources to lead a family devotional, a small group at church, or a one-on-one mentoring relationship. Join us for new episodes every Tuesday and Friday. Find resources to talk about these episodes at pursueGOD.org.Help others go "full circle" as a follower of Jesus through our 12-week Pursuit series.Click here to learn more about how to use these resources at home, with a small group, or in a one-on-one discipleship relationship.Got questions or want to leave a note? Email us at podcast@pursueGOD.org.Donate Now --Drive through any city and you'll see it — church signs everywhere.Catholic. Baptist. Methodist. Presbyterian. Pentecostal. Non-Denominational.How did we get here? And more importantly… have we lost something along the way?In this series, we're walking through the story of the Church — from the apostles to the modern day — to uncover where things went right, where things went wrong, and what it means to stay faithful to Jesus' design.Here's where we're going: From the Apostles to the Catholic Church (The Church Takes Shape)The Great Schism – East and West DividePre-Reformation Movements – Wycliffe, Hus, and the AnabaptistsThe Protestant Reformation – Truth RediscoveredThe Denominational Explosion – 1600s – 1800sModern Movements – Pentecostals, Evangelicals, and Non-DenomsWhen Jesus said, “I will build my church,” He wasn't talking about buildings, politics, or denominations. He was launching a movement — a family of believers united by truth, transformed by the Spirit, and commissioned to make disciples of all nations.Over the next two thousand years, that movement grew, spread, divided, and institutionalized. Some of it was faithful. Some of it wasn't.Our goal isn't just to study history. It's to recover the essence of a biblical church — one rooted in the gospel, led by the Spirit, and faithful to God's Word. What does it mean to be the kind of church Jesus actually envisioned?The Church Jesus FoundedJesus made an unshakable promise:“I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it.” — Matthew 16:18 (NLT)At Pentecost (Acts 2), that promise became reality. The Holy Spirit filled believers, Peter preached, and thousands came to faith.“All the believers devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching, and to fellowship, and to sharing in meals (including the Lord's Supper), and to prayer.” — Acts 2:42 (NLT)The Church began as a grassroots movement of ordinary people empowered by an extraordinary Spirit. There were no buildings, no denominations, and no political power — just a message of forgiveness and hope in Jesus Christ.The Structure of the New Testament ChurchAs the gospel spread, the apostles appointed elders (presbyteroi), also called pastors (poimēn) or overseers/bishops (episkopoi), to shepherd local congregations. These terms describe different aspects of one office — mature, Spirit-led shepherds guiding God's people.Paul...

In this episode, we're kicking off a new series walking through the story of the Church — from the apostles to the modern day — to uncover where things went right, where things went wrong, and what it means to stay faithful to Jesus' design.--The PursueGOD Truth podcast is the “easy button” for making disciples – whether you're looking for resources to lead a family devotional, a small group at church, or a one-on-one mentoring relationship. Join us for new episodes every Tuesday and Friday. Find resources to talk about these episodes at pursueGOD.org.Help others go "full circle" as a follower of Jesus through our 12-week Pursuit series.Click here to learn more about how to use these resources at home, with a small group, or in a one-on-one discipleship relationship.Got questions or want to leave a note? Email us at podcast@pursueGOD.org.Donate Now --Drive through any city and you'll see it — church signs everywhere.Catholic. Baptist. Methodist. Presbyterian. Pentecostal. Non-Denominational.How did we get here? And more importantly… have we lost something along the way?In this series, we're walking through the story of the Church — from the apostles to the modern day — to uncover where things went right, where things went wrong, and what it means to stay faithful to Jesus' design.Here's where we're going: From the Apostles to the Catholic Church (The Church Takes Shape)The Great Schism – East and West DividePre-Reformation Movements – Wycliffe, Hus, and the AnabaptistsThe Protestant Reformation – Truth RediscoveredThe Denominational Explosion – 1600s – 1800sModern Movements – Pentecostals, Evangelicals, and Non-DenomsWhen Jesus said, “I will build my church,” He wasn't talking about buildings, politics, or denominations. He was launching a movement — a family of believers united by truth, transformed by the Spirit, and commissioned to make disciples of all nations.Over the next two thousand years, that movement grew, spread, divided, and institutionalized. Some of it was faithful. Some of it wasn't.Our goal isn't just to study history. It's to recover the essence of a biblical church — one rooted in the gospel, led by the Spirit, and faithful to God's Word. What does it mean to be the kind of church Jesus actually envisioned?The Church Jesus FoundedJesus made an unshakable promise:“I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it.” — Matthew 16:18 (NLT)At Pentecost (Acts 2), that promise became reality. The Holy Spirit filled believers, Peter preached, and thousands came to faith.“All the believers devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching, and to fellowship, and to sharing in meals (including the Lord's Supper), and to prayer.” — Acts 2:42 (NLT)The Church began as a grassroots movement of ordinary people empowered by an extraordinary Spirit. There were no buildings, no denominations, and no political power — just a message of forgiveness and hope in Jesus Christ.The Structure of the New Testament ChurchAs the gospel spread, the apostles appointed elders (presbyteroi), also called pastors (poimēn) or overseers/bishops (episkopoi), to shepherd local congregations. These terms describe different aspects of one office — mature, Spirit-led shepherds guiding God's people.Paul...

Luke 5:15-16Removing the Barriers: Overcoming the Obstacles to Intentional Connection with GodFirst Methodist Church of Opelika is an exciting, historic, and growing Methodist church that is inviting our community to find and follow the Spirit-led life in Jesus. Founded in 1837, First Opelika has a rich history of influencing and impacting families in the Opelika/Auburn and surrounding community. The church is currently in a season of revitalization and is laying the foundation for effective ministry in the next season of her life as an independent Methodist church.For more information, check us out at www.firstopelika.org or www.facebook.com/firstopelika

DateOctober 19, 2025SynopsisIn this sermon, we confront the haunting fear that darkness will devour us. Through Jacob's midnight wrestling match with God, we discover that darkness isn't something to run from—it's a doorway to transformation. Wrestling with God in our darkest moments isn't a sign of faithlessness, but an invitation to experience divine presence and emerge changed, even if limping. Based on Genesis 32:22-31, with references to Barbara Brown Taylor's wisdom on sacred darkness and Kate Bowler's reflections on blessing through struggle.About The Local ChurchFor more information about The Local Church, visit our website. Feedback? Questions? Comments? We'd love to hear it. Email Brent at brent@thelocalchurchpbo.org.To invest in what God's doing through The Local Church and help support these podcasting efforts and this movement of God's love, give online here.

Michael Turner | Contemporary Service

Rachel Carosiello | Traditional Service

Imagine if you had a few thousand dollars to spend however you wanted? What would you do? A few of my friends might put a down payment on a house. Others would take a long-dreamed about vacation. Or buy an expensive piece of art. Most would give some money to their favorite charity. Yes, Americans certainly are generous with their money. In 2023, individuals gave $374 billion dollars, representing 67% of total giving, according to Giving USA. Americans gave to organizations and grantmaking foundations working in human services, health, education, environment, and the arts, financially supporting an array of causes and programs essential to the social fabric of our communities. But by far, Americans gave to religious institutions and organizations: the churches, synagogues, and mosques that offer spiritual guidance and solace – a community of the faithful. Chris Spencer knows something about the importance of supporting your parish church. As CEO and President of the United Methodist Foundation of Louisiana, Chris manages nearly $250 million on behalf of churches and philanthropists in the state, using his background in banking to help Methodist churches manage their investments and help donors with planned and legacy giving. The spiritual can be found in nature, too, and in different art movements, including Surrealism, Symbolism, and Spiritualism, a 19th-century movement that directly influenced modern art. Cana Brumfield began her exploration of art at a young age. Inspired by her mother, an art therapist and teacher, Cana grew up taking art classes and going to art camps. In 2024, Cana began selling her art to the public under the brand name Luna Leaf Studio. Incorporating upcycled materials, Cana’s art evokes a childlike love and wonder for nature and the environment by incorporating whimsical aspects of design. Her work can be found at local art markets, including Brickyard South and The Magical Spring market at the Unitarian Church of Baton Rouge. Art and religion have long shared an inseparable bond. From ancient cave paintings and illuminated medieval manuscripts to grand cathedrals and temple sculptures, art has historically functioned as a visual language of faith. And, all along, but perhaps today more than ever, art and religion both rely to some extent on a foundation of finance. Which is what brings Chris and Cana together over lunch on a show about business in Baton Rouge! Out to Lunch is recorded live over lunch at Mansurs on the Boulevard. You can find photos from this show by Ian Ledo and Miranda Albarez at itsbatonrouge.com.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Rev Jon Reynolds preaches on Luke 2:41-52 The post “Faith At Any Age: Youth Group Questions” appeared first on First United Methodist Church-Brighton & Whitmore Lake.

Hosts Pastor Robert Baltodano and Pastor Lloyd Pulley Question Timestamps: Corné, email (2:21) - Was the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies while Jesus was in the temple? If not, where was the Ark? Camille, Facebook (5:27) - Was Mary just a surrogate mother to Jesus, or were her chromosomes used for him? Rich, email (6:32) - Is the account in Matthew 7:24-27 literal? Debra, email (11:12) - Am I in sin for going to my old Methodist church? Blake, FL (16:18) - How will it be possible for people to be saved during the Tribulation if the Holy Spirit is no longer on Earth? Curtis, MA (18:27) - What about the "sparkle creed?" Nicholas, NY (25:43, continued after break at 33:26) - How does Titus 2:14 relate to "Mary was full of grace?" Judi, TX (37:08) - Why do people support the death penalty when they are against abortion? Francisco, NJ (45:38) - How can I explain why we don't have dinosaurs to my friends that believe in evolution? Tracy, PA (49:59) - How should I respond to my friend that says women can be pastors based on Paul and the Ephesian church? Ask Your Question: 888-712-7434 Answers@bbtlive.org

Send us a textPastor Johnnie preaches a message on Habakkuk 1 and 2. #sermons #motivation #inspirationDealing with Surprise Attacks - Pastor Johnnie Simpson Jr.https://www.instagram.com/pastorjsimpjr/https://x.com/pastorjsimpjrhttps://www.facebook.com/pastorjsimpjr/https://pastorjohnnie.blogspot.com/https://www.threads.com/@pastorjsimpjrhttps://www.tiktok.com/@pastorjohnnie

BIO:The Reverend Dr. Starlette Thomas is a poet, practical theologian, and itinerant prophet for a coming undivided “kin-dom.” She is the director of The Raceless Gospel Initiative, named for her work and witness and an associate editor at Good Faith Media. Starlette regularly writes on the sociopolitical construct of race and its longstanding membership in the North American church. Her writings have been featured in Sojourners, Red Letter Christians, Free Black Thought, Word & Way, Plough, Baptist News Global and Nurturing Faith Journal among others. She is a frequent guest on podcasts and has her own. The Raceless Gospel podcast takes her listeners to a virtual church service where she and her guests tackle that taboo trinity— race, religion, and politics. Starlette is also an activist who bears witness against police brutality and most recently the cultural erasure of the Black Lives Matter Plaza in Washington, D.C. It was erected in memory of the 2020 protests that brought the world together through this shared declaration of somebodiness after the gruesome murder of George Perry Floyd, Jr. Her act of resistance caught the attention of the Associated Press. An image of her reclaiming the rubble went viral and in May, she was featured in a CNN article.Starlette has spoken before the World Council of Churches North America and the United Methodist Church's Council of Bishops on the color- coded caste system of race and its abolition. She has also authored and presented papers to the members of the Baptist World Alliance in Zurich, Switzerland and Nassau, Bahamas to this end. She has cast a vision for the future of religion at the National Museum of African American History and Culture's “Forward Conference: Religions Envisioning Change.” Her paper was titled “Press Forward: A Raceless Gospel for Ex- Colored People Who Have Lost Faith in White Supremacy.” She has lectured at The Queen's Foundation in Birmingham, U.K. on a baptismal pedagogy for antiracist theological education, leadership and ministries. Starlette's research interests have been supported by the Louisville Institute and the Lilly Foundation. Examining the work of the Reverend Dr. Clarence Jordan, whose farm turned “demonstration plot” in Americus, Georgia refused to agree to the social arrangements of segregation because of his Christian convictions, Starlette now takes this dirt to the church. Her thesis is titled, “Afraid of Koinonia: How life on this farm reveals the fear of Christian community.” A full circle moment, she was recently invited to write the introduction to Jordan's newest collection of writings, The Inconvenient Gospel: A Southern Prophet Tackles War, Wealth, Race and Religion.Starlette is a member of the Christian Community Development Association, the Peace & Justice Studies Association, and the Koinonia Advisory Council. A womanist in ministry, she has served as a pastor as well as a denominational leader. An unrepentant academician and bibliophile, Starlette holds degrees from Buffalo State College, Colgate Rochester Crozer Divinity School and Wesley Theological Seminary. Last year, she was awarded an honorary doctorate in Sacred Theology for her work and witness as a public theologian from Wayland Baptist Theological Seminary. She is the author of "Take Me to the Water": The Raceless Gospel as Baptismal Pedagogy for a Desegregated Church and a contributing author of the book Faith Forward: A Dialogue on Children, Youth & a New Kind of Christianity.  JennyI was just saying that I've been thinking a lot about the distinction between Christianity and Christian supremacy and Christian nationalism, and I have been researching Christian nationalism for probably about five or six years now. And one of my introductions to the concept of it was a book that's based on a documentary that's based on a book called Constantine Sword. And it talked about how prior to Constantine, Christians had the image of fish and life and fertility, and that is what they lived by. And then Constantine supposedly had this vision of a cross and it said, with this sign, you shall reign. And he married the church and the state. And ever since then, there's been this snowball effect of Christian empire through the Crusades, through manifest destiny, through all of these things that we're seeing play out in the United States now that aren't new. But I think there's something new about how it's playing out right now.Danielle (02:15):I was thinking about the doctrine of discovery and how that was the creation of that legal framework and ideology to justify the seizure of indigenous lands and the subjugation of indigenous peoples. And just how part of that doctrine you have to necessarily make the quote, humans that exist there, you have to make them vacant. Or even though they're a body, you have to see them as internally maybe empty or lacking or less. And that really becomes this frame. Well, a repeated frame.Jenny (03:08):Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And it feels like that's so much source to that when that dehumanization is ordained by God. If God is saying these people who we're not even going to look at as people, we're going to look at as objects, how do we get out of that?Danielle (03:39):I don't know. Well, definitely still in it. You can hear folks like Charlie Kirk talk about it and unabashedly, unashamedly turning point USA talk about doctrine of discovery brings me currently to these fishing boats that have been jetting around Venezuela. And regardless of what they're doing, the idea that you could just kill them regardless of international law, regardless of the United States law, which supposedly we have the right to a process, the right to due process, the right to show up in a court and we're presumed innocent. But this doctrine applies to people manifest destiny, this doctrine of discovery. It applies to others that we don't see as human and therefore can snuff out life. And I think now they're saying on that first boat, I think they've blown up four boats total. And on the first boat, one of the ladies is speaking out, saying they were out fishing and the size of the boat. I think that's where you get into reality. The size of the boat doesn't indicate a large drug seizure anyway. It's outside reality. And again, what do you do if they're smuggling humans? Did you just destroy all that human life? Or maybe they're just fishing. So I guess that doctrine and that destiny, it covers all of these immoral acts, it kind of washes them clean. And I guess that talking about Constantine, it feels like the empire needed a way to do that, to absolve themselves.Danielle (05:40):I know it gives me both comfort and makes me feel depressed when I think about people in 300 ad being, they're freaking throwing people into the lion's den again and people are cheering. And I have to believe that there were humans at that time that saw the barbarism for what it was. And that gives me hope that there have always been a few people in a system of tyranny and oppression that are like, what the heck is going on? And it makes me feel like, ugh. When does that get to be more than just the few people in a society kind of society? Or what does a society need to not need such violence? Because I think it's so baked in now to these white and Christian supremacy, and I don't know, in my mind, I don't think I can separate white supremacy from Christian supremacy because even before White was used as a legal term to own people and be able to vote, the legal term was Christian. And then when enslaved folks started converting to Christianity, they pivoted and said, well, no, not all Christians. It has to be white Christians. And so I think white supremacy was birthed out of a long history of Christian supremacy.Danielle (07:21):Yeah, it's weird. I remember growing up, and maybe you had this experience too, I remember when Schindler's List hit the theaters and you were probably too young, but Schindler's listed the theaters, and I remember sitting in a living room and having to convince my parents of why I wanted to see it. And I think I was 16, I don't remember. I was young and it was rated R and of course that was against our values to see rated R movies. But I really wanted to see this movie. And I talked and talked and talked and got to see this movie if anybody's watched Schindler's List, it's a story of a man who is out to make money, sees this opportunity to get free labor basically as part of the Nazi regime. And so he starts making trades to access free labor, meanwhile, still has women, enjoys a fine life, goes to church, has a pseudo faith, and as time goes along, I'm shortening the story, but he gets this accountant who he discovers he loves because his accountant makes him rich. He makes him rich off the labor. But the accountant is thinking, how do I save more lives and get them into this business with Schindler? Well, eventually they get captured, they get found out. All these things happen, right, that we know. And it becomes clear to Schindler that they're exterminating, they're wiping out an entire population.(09:01):I guess I come to that and just think about, as a young child, I remember watching that thinking, there's no way this would ever happen again because there's film, there's documentation. At the time, there were people alive from the Great war, the greatest generation like my grandfather who fought in World War ii. There were other people, we had the live stories. But now just a decade, 12, 13 years removed, it hasn't actually been that long. And the memory of watching a movie like Schindler's List, the impact of seeing what it costs a soul to take the life of other souls like that, that feels so far removed now. And that's what the malaise of the doctrine of Discovery and manifest destiny, I think have been doing since Constantine and Christianity. They've been able to wipe the memory, the historical memory of the evil done with their blessing.(10:06):And I feel like even this huge thing like the Holocaust, the memories being wiped, you can almost feel it. And in fact, people are saying, I don't know if they actually did that. I don't know if they killed all these Jewish peoples. Now you hear more denial even of the Holocaust now that those storytellers aren't passed on to the next life. So I think we are watching in real time how Christianity and Constantine were able to just wipe use empire to wipe the memory of the people so they can continue to gain riches or continue to commit atrocities without impunity just at any level. I guess that's what comes to mind.Jenny (10:55):Yeah, it makes me think of, I saw this video yesterday and I can't remember what representative it was in a hearing and she had written down a long speech or something that she was going to give, and then she heard during the trial the case what was happening was someone shared that there have been children whose parents have been abducted and disappeared because the children were asked at school, are your parents undocumented? And she said, I can't share what I had prepared because I'm caught with that because my grandfather was killed in the Holocaust because his children were asked at school, are your parents Jewish?(11:53):And my aunt took that guilt with her to her grave. And the amount of intergenerational transgenerational trauma that is happening right now, that never again is now what we are doing to families, what we are doing to people, what we are doing to children, the atrocities that are taking place in our country. Yeah, it's here. And I think it's that malaise has come over not only the past, but even current. I think people don't even know how to sit with the reality of the horror of what's happening. And so they just dissociate and they just check out and they don't engage the substance of what's happening.Danielle (13:08):Yeah. I tell a friend sometimes when I talk to her, I just say, I need you to tap in. Can you just tap in? Can you just carry the conversation or can you just understand? And I don't mean understand, believe a story. I mean feel the story. It's one thing to say the words, but it's another thing to feel them. And I think Constantine is a brilliant guy. He took a peaceful religion. He took a peaceful faith practice, people that literally the prior guy was throwing to the lions for sport. He took a people that had been mocked, a religious group that had been mocked, and he elevated them and then reunified them with that sword that you're talking about. And so what did those Christians have to give up then to marry themselves to empire? I don't know, but it seems like they kind of effed us over for eternity, right?Jenny (14:12):Yeah. Well, and I think that that's part of it. I think part of the malaise is the infatuation with eternity and with heaven. And I know for myself, when I was a missionary for many years, I didn't care about my body because this body, this light and momentary suffering paled in comparison to what was awaiting me. And so no matter what happened, it was a means to an end to spend eternity with Jesus. And so I think of empathy as us being able to feel something of ourselves in someone else. If I don't have grief and joy and sorrow and value for this body, I'm certainly not going to have it for other bodies. And I think the disembodiment of white Christian supremacy is what enables bodies to just tolerate and not consider the brutality of what we're seeing in the United States. What we're seeing in Congo, what we're seeing in Palestine, what we're seeing everywhere is still this sense of, oh, the ends are going to justify the means we're all going to, at least I'll be in heaven and everyone else can kind of figure out what they're going to do.I don't know, man. Yeah, maybe. I guess when you think about Christian nationalism versus maybe a more authentic faith, what separates them for youAbiding by the example that Jesus gave or not. I mean, Jesus was killed by the state because he had some very unpopular things to say about the state and the way in which he lived was very much like, how do I see those who are most oppressed and align myself with them? Whereas Christian nationalism is how do I see those who have the most power and align myselves with them?(16:48):And I think it is a question of alignment and orientation. And at the end of the day, who am I going to stand with even knowing and probably knowing that that may be to the detriment of my own body, but I do that not out of a sense of martyrdom, but out of a sense of integrity. I refuse. I think I really believe Jesus' words when he said, what good is it for a man to gain the world and lose his soul? And at the end of the day, what I'm fighting for is my own soul, and I don't want to give that up.Danielle (17:31):Hey, starlet, we're on to not giving up our souls to power.The Reverend Dr.Rev. Dr. Starlette (17:47):I'm sorry I'm jumping from one call to the next. I do apologize for my tardiness now, where were we?Danielle (17:53):We got on the subject of Constantine and how he married the sword with Christianity when it had been fish and fertile ground and et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, that's where we started. Yeah, that's where we started.Starlette (18:12):I'm going to get in where I fit in. Y'all keep going.Danielle (18:14):You get in. Yeah, you get in. I guess Jenny, for me and for you, starlet, the deep erasure of any sort of resemblance of I have to look back and I have to be willing to interrogate, I think, which is what a lot of people don't want to do. I grew up in a really conservative evangelical family and a household, and I have to interrogate, well, one, why did my mom get into that? Because Mexican, and number two, I watched so slowly as there was a celebration. I think it was after Bill Clinton had this Monica Lewinsky thing and all of this stuff happened. My Latino relatives were like, wait a minute, we don't like that. We don't like that. That doesn't match our values. And I remember this celebration of maybe now they're going to become Christians. I remember thinking that as a child, because for them to be a Democrat in my household and for them to hold different values around social issues meant that they weren't necessarily saved in my house and my way because they hadn't fully bought into empire in the way I know Jenny muted herself.(19:31):They hadn't fully bought into empire. And I slowly watched those family members in California kind of give way to conservatism the things that beckoned it. And honestly, a lot of it was married to religion and to what is going on today and not standing up for justice, not standing up for civil rights. I watched the movement go over, and it feels like at the expense of the memory of my grandfather and my great-grandfather who despised religion in some ways, my grandfather did not like going to church because he thought people were fake. He didn't believe them, and he didn't see what church had to do with being saved anyway. And so I think about him a lot and I think, oh, I got to hold onto that a little bit in the face of empire. But yeah, my mind just went off on that rabbit trail.Starlette (20:38):Oh, it's quite all right. My grandfather had similar convictions. My grandmother took the children to church with her and he stayed back. And after a while, the children were to decide that they didn't want to go anymore. And I remember him saying, that's enough. That's enough. You've done enough. They've heard enough. Don't make them go. But I think he drew some of the same conclusions, and I hold those as well, but I didn't grow up in a household where politics was even discussed. Folks were rapture ready, as they say, because they were kingdom minded is what they say now. And so there was no discussion of what was going on on the ground. They were really out of touch with, I'm sending right now. They were out of touch with reality. I have on pants, I have on full makeup, I have on earrings. I'm not dressed modestly in any way, shape, fashion or form.(21:23):It was a very externalized, visible, able to be observed kind of spirituality. And so I enter the spaces back at home and it's like going into a different world. I had to step back a bit and oftentimes I just don't say anything. I just let the room have it because you can't, in my experience, you can't talk 'em out of it. They have this future orientation where they live with their feet off the ground because Jesus is just around the corner. He's right in that next cloud. He's coming, and so none of this matters. And so that affected their political participation and discussion. There was certainly very minor activism, so I wasn't prepared by family members to show up in the streets like I do now. I feel sincerely called. I feel like it's a work of the spirit that I know where to put my feet at all, but I certainly resonate with what you would call a rant that led you down to a rabbit hole because it led me to a story about my grandfather, so I thank you for that. They were both right by the way,Danielle (22:23):I think so he had it right. He would sit in the very back of church sometimes to please my grandmother and to please my family, and he didn't have a cell phone, but he would sit there and go to sleep. He would take a nap. And I have to think of that now as resistance. And as a kid I was like, why does he do that? But his body didn't want to take it in.Starlette (22:47):That's rest as resistance from the Nat Bishop, Trisha Hersey, rest as act of defiance, rest as reparations and taking back my time that you're stealing from me by having me sit in the service. I see that.Danielle (23:02):I mean, Jenny, it seems like Constantine, he knew what to do. He gets Christians on his side, they knew how to gather organically. He then gets this mass megaphone for whatever he wants, right?Jenny (23:21):Yeah. I think about Adrian Marie Brown talks a lot about fractals and how what happens on a smaller scale is going to be replicated on larger scales. And so even though there's some sense of disjoint with denominations, I think generally in the United States, there is some common threads of that manifest destiny that have still found its way into these places of congregating. And so you're having these training wheels really even within to break it down into the nuclear family that James Dobson wanted everyone to focus on was a very, very narrow white, patriarchal Christian family. And so if you rehearse this on these smaller scales, then you can rehearse it in your community, then you can rehearse it, and it just bubbles and bubbles and balloons out into what we're seeing happen, I think.Yeah, the nuclear family and then the youth movements, let us, give us your youth, give us your kids. Send us your kids and your youth to our camps.Jenny (24:46):Great. I grew up in Colorado and I was probably 10 or 11 when the Columbine shooting happened, and I remember that very viscerally. And the immediate conversation was not how do we protect kids in school? It was glorifying this one girl that maybe or maybe did not say yes when the shooters asked, do you still believe in God? And within a year her mom published a book about it. And that was the thing was let's use this to glorify martyrdom. And I think it is different. These were victims in school and I think any victim of the shooting is horrifying. And I think we're seeing a similar level of that martyrdom frenzy with Charlie Kirk right now. And what we're not talking about is how do we create a safer society? What we're talking about, I'm saying, but I dunno. What I'm hearing of the white Christian communities is how are we glorifying Charlie Kirk as a martyr and what power that wields when we have someone that we can call a martyr?Starlette (26:27):No, I just got triggered as soon as you said his name.(26:31):Just now. I think grieving a white supremacist is terrifying. Normalizing racist rhetoric is horrifying. And so I look online in disbelief. I unfollowed and blocked hundreds of people on social media based on their comments about what I didn't agree with. Everything he said, got a lot of that. I'm just not interested. I think they needed a martyr for the race war that they're amping for, and I would like to be delivered from the delusion that is white body supremacy. It is all exhausting. I don't want to be a part of the racial imagination that he represents. It is not a new narrative. We are not better for it. And he's not a better person because he's died. The great Biggie Smalls has a song that says you're nobody until somebody kills you. And I think it's appropriate. Most people did not know who he was. He was a podcaster. I'm also looking kind of cross-eyed at his wife because that's not, I served as a pastor for more than a decade. This is not an expression of grief. There's nothing like anything I've seen for someone who was assassinated, which I disagree with.(28:00):I've just not seen widows take the helm of organizations and given passion speeches and make veil threats to audiences days before the, as we would say in my community, before the body has cooled before there is a funeral that you'll go down and take pictures. That could be arguably photo ops. It's all very disturbing to me. This is a different measure of grief. I wrote about it. I don't know what, I've never heard of a sixth stage of grief that includes fighting. We're not fighting over anybody's dead body. We're not even supposed to do it with Jesus. And so I just find it all strange that before the man is buried, you've already concocted a story wherein opposing forces are at each other's throats. And it's all this intergalactic battle between good and bad and wrong, up and down, white and black. It's too much.(28:51):I think white body supremacy has gotten out of hand and it's incredibly theatrical. And for persons who have pulled back from who've decent whiteness, who've de racialize themselves, it's foolishness. Just nobody wants to be involved in this. It's a waste of time. White body supremacy and racism are wastes of time. Trying to prove that I'm a human being or you're looking right at is a waste of time. And people just want to do other things, which is why African-Americans have decided to go to sleep, to take a break. We're not getting ready to spin our wheels again, to defend our humanity, to march for rights that are innate, to demand a dignity that comes with being human. It's just asinine.(29:40):I think you would be giving more credence to the statements themselves by responding. And so I'd rather save my breath and do my makeup instead because trying to defend the fact that I'm a glorious human being made in the image of God is a waste of time. Look at me. My face is beat. It testifies for me. Who are you? Just tell me that I don't look good and that God didn't touch me. I'm with the finger of love as the people say, do you see this beat? Let me fall back. So you done got me started and I blame you. It's your fault for the question. So no, that's my response to things like that. African-American people have to insulate themselves with their senses of ness because he didn't have a kind word to say about African-American people, whether a African-American pilot who is racialized as black or an African-American woman calling us ignorance saying, we're incompetence. If there's no way we could have had these positions, when African-American women are the most agreed, we're the most educated, how dare you? And you think, I'm going to prove that I'm going to point to degrees. No, I'll just keep talking. It will make itself obvious and evident.(30:45):Is there a question in that? Just let's get out of that. It triggers me so bad. Like, oh, that he gets a holiday and it took, how many years did it take for Martin Luther King Junior to get a holiday? Oh, okay. So that's what I mean. The absurdity of it all. You're naming streets after him hasn't been dead a year. You have children coloring in sheets, doing reports on him. Hasn't been a few months yet. We couldn't do that for Martin Luther King. We couldn't do that for Rosa Parks. We couldn't do that for any other leader, this one in particular, and right now, find that to beI just think it just takes a whole lot of delusion and pride to keep puffing yourself up and saying, you're better than other people. Shut up, pipe down. Or to assume that everybody wants to look like you or wants to be racialized as white. No, I'm very cool in who I'm, I don't want to change as the people say in every lifetime, and they use these racialized terms, and so I'll use them and every lifetime I want to come back as black. I don't apologize for my existence. I love it here. I don't want to be racialized as white. I'm cool. That's the delusion for me that you think everyone wants to look like. You think I would trade.(32:13):You think I would trade for that, and it looks great on you. I love what it's doing for you. But as for me in my house, we believe in melanin and we keep it real cute over here. I just don't have time. I think African-Americans minoritized and otherwise, communities should invest their time in each other and in ourselves as opposed to wasting our breath, debating people. We can't debate white supremacists. Anyway, I think I've talked about that the arguments are not rooted in reason. It's rooted in your dehumanization and equating you with three fifths of a human being who's in charge of measurements, the demonizing of whiteness. It's deeply problematic for me because it puts them in a space of creator. How can you say how much of a human being that's someone? This stuff is absurd. And so I've refuse to waste my breath, waste my life arguing with somebody who doesn't have the power, the authority.(33:05):You don't have the eyesight to tell me if I'm human or not. This is stupid. We're going to do our work and part of our work is going to sleep. We're taking naps, we're taking breaks, we're putting our feet up. I'm going to take a nap after this conversation. We're giving ourselves a break. We're hitting the snooze button while staying woke. There's a play there. But I think it's important that people who are attacked by white body supremacy, not give it their energy. Don't feed into the madness. Don't feed into the machine because it'll eat you alive. And I didn't get dressed for that. I didn't get on this call. Look at how I look for that. So that's what that brings up. Okay. It brings up the violence of white body supremacy, the absurdity of supremacy at all. The delusion of the racial imagination, reading a 17th century creation onto a 21st century. It's just all absurd to me that anyone would continue to walk around and say, I'm better than you. I'm better than you. And I'll prove it by killing you, lynching you, raping your people, stealing your people, enslaving your people. Oh, aren't you great? That's pretty great,Jenny (34:30):I think. Yeah, I think it is. I had a therapist once tell me, it's like you've had the opposite of a psychotic break because when that is your world and that's all, it's so easy to justify and it makes sense. And then as soon as you step out of it, you're like, what the what? And then it makes it that much harder to understand. And this is my own, we talked about this last week, but processing what is my own path in this of liberation and how do I engage people who are still in that world, who are still related to me, who are, and in a way that isn't exhausting for I'm okay being exhausted if it's going to actually bear something, if it's just me spinning my wheels, I don't actually see value in that. And for me, what began to put cracks in that was people challenging my sense of superiority and my sense of knowing what they should do with their bodies. Because essentially, I think a lot of how I grew up was similar maybe and different from how you were sharing Danielle, where it was like always vote Republican because they're going to be against abortion and they're going to be against gay marriage. And those were the two in my world that were the things that I was supposed to vote for no matter what. And now just seeing how far that no matter what is willing to go is really terrifying.Danielle (36:25):Yeah, I agree. Jenny. I mean, again, I keep talking about him, but he's so important to me. The idea that my great grandfather to escape religious oppression would literally walk 1,950 miles and would leave an oppressive system just in an attempt to get away. That walk has to mean something to me today. You can't forget. All of my family has to remember that he did a walk like that. How many of us have walked that far? I mean, I haven't ever walked that far in just one instance to escape something. And he was poor because he couldn't even pay for his mom's burial at the Catholic church. So he said, let me get out of this. And then of course he landed with the Methodist and he was back in the fire again. But I come back to him, and that's what people will do to get out of religious oppression. They will give it an effort and when they can. And so I think it's important to remember those stories. I'm off on my tangent again now because it feels so important. It's a good one.Starlette (37:42):I think it's important to highlight the walking away from, to putting one foot in front of the other, praying with your feet(37:51):That it's its own. You answer your own prayer by getting away from it. It is to say that he was done with it, and if no one else was going to move, he was going to move himself that he didn't wait for the change in the institution. Let's just change directions and get away from it. And I hate to even imagine what he was faced with and that he had to make that decision. And what propelled him to walk that long with that kind of energy to keep momentum and to create that amount of distance. So for me, it's very telling. I ran away at 12. I had had it, so I get it. This is the last time you're going to hit me.Not going to beat me out of my sleep. I knew that at 12. This is no place for me. So I admire people who get up in the dead of night, get up without a warning, make it up in their mind and said, that's the last time, or This is not what I'm going to do. This is not the way that I want to be, and I'm leaving. I admire him. Sounds like a hero. I think we should have a holiday.Danielle (38:44):And then imagine telling that. Then you're going to tell me that people like my grandfather are just in it. This is where it leaves reality for me and leaves Christianity that he's just in it to steal someone's job. This man worked the lemon fields and then as a side job in his retired years, moved up to Sacramento, took in people off death row at Folsom Prison, took 'em to his home and nursed them until they passed. So this is the kind a person that will walk 1,950 miles. They'll do a lot of good in the world, and we're telling people that they can't come here. That's the kind of people that are walking here. That's the kind of people that are coming here. They're coming here to do whatever they can. And then they're nurturing families. They're actually living out in their families what supposed Christians are saying they want to be. Because people in these two parent households and these white families, they're actually raising the kind of people that will shoot Charlie Kirk. It's not people like my grandfather that walked almost 2000 miles to form a better life and take care of people out of prisons. Those aren't the people forming children that are, you'reStarlette (40:02):Going to email for that. The deacons will you in the parking lot for that one. You you're going to get a nasty tweet for that one. Somebody's going to jump off in the comments and straighten you out at,Danielle (40:17):I can't help it. It's true. That's the reality. Someone that will put their feet and their faith to that kind of practice is not traveling just so they can assault someone or rob someone. I mean, yes, there are people that have done that, but there's so much intentionality about moving so far. It does not carry the weight of, can you imagine? Let me walk 2000 miles to Rob my neighbor. That doesn't make any sense.Starlette (40:46):Sounds like it's own kind of pilgrimage.Jenny (40:59):I have so many thoughts, but I think whiteness has just done such a number on people. And I'm hearing each of you and I'm thinking, I don't know that I could tell one story from any of my grandparents. I think that that is part of whiteness. And it's not that I didn't know them, but it's that the ways in which Transgenerational family lines are passed down are executed for people in considered white bodies where it's like my grandmother, I guess I can't tell some stories, but she went to Polish school and in the States and was part of a Polish community. And then very quickly on polls were grafted into whiteness so that they could partake in the GI Bill. And so that Polish heritage was then lost. And that was not that long ago, but it was a severing that happened. And some of my ancestors from England, that severing happened a long time ago where it's like, we are not going to tell the stories of our ancestors because that would actually reveal that this whole white thing is made up. And we actually have so much more to us than that. And so I feel like the social privilege that has come from that, but also the visceral grief of how I would want to know those stories of my ancestors that aren't there. Because in part of the way that whiteness operates,Starlette (42:59):I'm glad you told that story. Diane de Prima, she tells about that, about her parents giving up their Italian ness, giving up their heritage and being Italian at home and being white in public. So not changing their name, shortening their name, losing their accent, or dropping the accent. I'm glad that you said that. I think that's important. But like you said though, if you tell those stories and it shakes up the power dynamic for whiteness, it's like, oh, but there are books how the Irish became White, the Making of Whiteness working for Whiteness, read all the books by David Broer on Whiteness Studies. But I'm glad that you told us. I think it's important, and I love that you named it as a severing. Why did you choose that word in particular?Jenny (43:55):I had the privilege a few years ago of going to Poland and doing an ancestry trip. And weeks before I went, an extended cousin in the States had gotten connected with our fifth cousin in Poland. We share the fifth grandparents. And this cousin of mine took us around to the church where my fifth great grandparents got married and these just very visceral places. And I had never felt the land that my ancestors know in my body. And there was something really, really powerful of that. And so I think of severing as I have been cut off from that lineage and that heritage because of whiteness. And I feel very, very grateful for the ways in which that is beginning to heal and beginning to mend. And we can tell truer stories of our ancestry and where we come from and the practices of our people. And I think it is important to acknowledge the cost and the privilege that has come from that severing in order to get a job that was not reserved for people that weren't white. My family decided, okay, well we'll just play the part. We will take on that role of whiteness because that will then give us that class privilege and that socioeconomic privilege that reveals how much of a construct whitenessStarlette (45:50):A racial contract is what Charles W. Mills calls it, that there's a deal made in a back room somewhere that you'll trade your sense of self for another. And so that it doesn't, it just unravels all the ways in which white supremacy, white body supremacy, pos itself, oh, that we're better. I think people don't say anything because it unravels those lies, those tongue twisters that persons have spun over the centuries, that it's really just an agreement that we've decided that we'll make ourselves the majority so that we can bully everybody else. And nobody wants to be called that. Nobody wants to be labeled greedy. I'm just trying to provide for my family, but at what expense? At who else's expense. But I like to live in this neighborhood and I don't want to be stopped by police. But you're willing to sacrifice other people. And I think that's why it becomes problematic and troublesome because persons have to look at themselves.(46:41):White body supremacy doesn't offer that reflection. If it did, persons would see how monstrous it is that under the belly of the beast, seeing the underside of that would be my community. We know what it costs for other people to feel really, really important because that's what whiteness demands. In order to look down your nose on somebody, you got to stand on somebody's back. Meanwhile, our communities are teaching each other to stand. We stand on the shoulders of giants. It's very communal. It's a shared identity and way of being. Whereas whiteness demands allegiance by way of violence, violent taking and grabbing it is quite the undoing. We have a lot of work to do. But I am proud of you for telling that story.Danielle (47:30):I wanted to read this quote by Gloria, I don't know if you know her. Do you know her? She writes, the struggle is inner Chicano, Indio, American Indian, Molo, Mexicano, immigrant, Latino, Anglo and power working class Anglo black, Asian. Our psyches resemble the border towns and are populated by the same people. The struggle has always been inner and has played out in outer terrains. Awareness of our situation must come before interchanges and which in turn come before changes in society. Nothing happens in the real world unless it first happens in the images in our heads.(48:16):So Jenny, when you're talking, you had some image in your head before you went to Poland, before it became reality. You had some, it didn't start with just knowing your cousin or whatever it happened before that. Or for me being confronted and having to confront things with my husband about ways we've been complicit or engaged in almost like the word comes gerrymandering our own future. That's kind of how it felt sometimes Luis and I and how to become aware of that and take away those scales off our own eyes and then just sit in the reality, oh no, we're really here and this is where we're really at. And so where are we going to go from here? And starlet, you've talked from your own position. That's just what comes to mind. It's something that happens inside. I mean, she talks about head, I think more in feelings in my chest. That's where it happens for me. But yeah, that's what comes to mind.Starlette (49:48):With. I feel like crying because of what we've done to our bodies and the bodies of other people. And we still can't see ourselves not as fully belonging to each other, not as beloved, not as holy.It's deeply saddening that for all the time that we have here together for all the time that we'll share with each other, we'll spend much of it not seeing each other at all.Danielle (50:57):My mind's going back to, I think I might've shared this right before you joined Starla, where it was like, I really believe the words of Jesus that says, what good is it for someone to gain the world and lose their soul? And that's what I hear. And what I feel is this soul loss. And I don't know how to convince other people. And I don't know if that's the point that their soul is worth it, but I think I've, not that I do it perfectly, but I think I've gotten to the place where I'm like, I believe my interiority is worth more than what it would be traded in for.(51:45):And I think that will be a lifelong journey of trying to figure out how to wrestle with a system. I will always be implicated in because I am talking to you on a device that was made from cobalt, from Congo and wearing clothes that were made in other countries. And there's no way I can make any decision other than to just off myself immediately. And I'm not saying I'm doing that, but I'm saying the part of the wrestle is that this is, everything is unresolved. And how do I, like what you said, Danielle, what did you say? Can you tune into this conversation?Jenny (52:45):Yeah. And how do I keep tapping in even when it means engaging my own implication in this violence? It's easier to be like, oh, those people over there that are doing those things. And it's like, wait, now how do I stay situated and how I'm continually perpetuating it as well, and how do I try to figure out how to untangle myself in that? And I think that will be always I,Danielle (53:29):He says, the US Mexican border as like an open wound where the third world grates against the first and bleeds. And before a scab forms it hemorrhages again, the lifeblood of two worlds. Two worlds merging to form a third country, a border culture. Borders are set up to define the places that are safe and unsafe to distinguish us from them. A border is a dividing line, a narrow strip along a steep edge. A borderland is a vague and undetermined place created by the emotional residue of an unnatural boundary is it is in a constant state of transition. They're prohibited and forbidden arts inhabitants. And I think that as a Latina that really describes and mixed with who my father is and that side that I feel like I live like the border in me, it feels like it grates against me. So I hear you, Jenny, and I feel very like all the resonance, and I hear you star led, and I feel a lot of resonance there too. But to deny either thing would make me less human because I am human with both of those parts of me.(54:45):But also to engage them brings a lot of grief for both parts of me. And how does that mix together? It does feel like it's in a constant state of transition. And that's partly why Latinos, I think particularly Latino men bought into this lie of power and played along. And now they're getting shown that no, that part of you that's European, that part never counted at all. And so there is no way to buy into that racialized system. There's no way to put a down payment in and come out on the other side as human. As soon as we buy into it, we're less human. Yeah. Oh, Jenny has to go in a minute. Me too. But starlet, you're welcome to join us any Thursday. Okay.Speaker 1 (55:51):Afternoon. Bye. Thank you. Bye bye.Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health ResourcesIf you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.Kitsap County / Local ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call LinePhone: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach TeamEmergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS)Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now”Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the PeninsulasPhone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-ResourcesLocal crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap CountyWebsite: https://namikitsap.org/Peer support groups, education, and resources for individuals and families affected by mental illness.Statewide & National Crisis ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They Offer988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988)Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.Washington Recovery Help Line1‑866‑789‑1511Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesHelp for mental health, substance use, and problem gambling; 24/7 statewide support.WA Warm Line877‑500‑9276Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.Native & Strong Crisis LifelineDial 988 then press 4Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesCulturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.Additional Helpful Tools & Tips• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

David Wilkinson is a Christian theologian and Methodist minister who has earned a Ph.D. in astrophysics and another in systematic theology. His expertise as a scientist is in star formation and galaxy evolution. As a theologian he works to build bridges between science and Christianity. He leads the "Equipping Christian Leadership in an Age of Science" project and is a regular contributor to BBC Radio 4's Thought for the Day. His latest book, just released in August is How Does God Work in the World?: Science, Miracle and Mission. To describe the book, I want to quote from his website: “From The Simpsons to a wedding in Cana, from grace to quantum theory, and from the problem of evil to eschatology, David argues that the biblical picture of a God who acts in the world makes sense in the light of modern science, but how God acts cannot be reduced to simple models.” We are honored to have Dr. Wilkinson with us for a conversation about all these things.

Mark 10: 17-27Removing BarriersFirst Methodist Church of Opelika is an exciting, historic, and growing Methodist church that is inviting our community to find and follow the Spirit-led life in Jesus. Founded in 1837, First Opelika has a rich history of influencing and impacting families in the Opelika/Auburn and surrounding community. The church is currently in a season of revitalization and is laying the foundation for effective ministry in the next season of her life as an independent Methodist church.For more information, check us out at www.firstopelika.org or www.facebook.com/firstopelika

"God-given revelation is the foundation on which all the other values stand."In his message, Pastor Derrick reminds us of the paramount importance of God's Word in our lives. The sermon revolves around the concept of 'God-given revelation,' emphasizing that Scripture is our foundation, our plumb line, and our true home. We're challenged to become 'people of the book,' regularly engaging with the Bible not just for information, but for transformation. The message draws from 2 Timothy 3:14-17, highlighting that all Scripture is God-breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness. An intriguing parallel is drawn between the discipline athletes undergo for physical competition and the spiritual discipline we need through Scripture. This message is deeply relevant to our faith journey, urging us to make God's Word the atmosphere of our minds and the anchor of our souls, especially in times of uncertainty or cultural shifts.

This week we look at religion in the early republic, exploring the Methodists and Baptists in particular.

DateOctober 12, 2025SynopsisIn this sermon, we confront the haunting narrative of isolation and loneliness plaguing our modern world. Pastor Meg Greto challenges the "pandemic of loneliness" by diving into Jeremiah's powerful letter to the exiles, revealing God's unexpected prescription for healing: plant gardens, build community, and seek the shalom (complete peace and flourishing) of the place where you are. Through practical actions and deep connection to both land and neighbor, we discover that God's story always calls us from isolation into beloved community. Scripture references: Jeremiah 29:1, 4-7.About The Local ChurchFor more information about The Local Church, visit our website. Feedback? Questions? Comments? We'd love to hear it. Email Brent at brent@thelocalchurchpbo.org.To invest in what God's doing through The Local Church and help support these podcasting efforts and this movement of God's love, give online here.

Grace Marie Ward | Traditional Service

Trevor Miller | Contemporary Service

Trevor Miller | Contemporary Service

Send us a textIn this episode of 'Pondering the Bible,' hosts Ken Corkins and Pastor Rocky Ellison discuss the final verses of Paul's second letter to the Thessalonians (2 Thessalonians 3:16-18). The episode delves into the importance of Paul's unique closing, his invocation of peace, and the deeper theological implications of his words. They explore the types of grace according to Methodist beliefs and the significance of Paul signing the letter himself due to historical context. The hosts also reflect on the broader themes covered in the season, including persecution, eschatology, endurance, and ethics, providing a comprehensive wrap-up to their study.The Sermon for this episode is titled "Sign Off" and can be found at pondergmc.org/ministries/sermonsNEW!: Rate us at Podchaser Find us at www.pondergmc.org. Feedback is welcome: PonderMethodist@gmail.com Music performed by the Ponder GMC worship team. Cover Art: Joe Wagner Recorded, edited and mixed by Snikrock

Exploring Christianity's Denominations like never before with a complete world map that charts Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant Baptist, and pretty much all Christian denominations in stunning 4K Ultra HD.This full story traces the history and growth of denominations in a documentary style, supported by maps, history, and biblical preaching. Explore how Christianity spread across the entire world, and what does each denomination actually believe including Pentecostal church, Presbyterian, Methodist, Reformed, Coptic, Lutheran, Episcopal, Church or Latter Day Saints (mormons) and many, many more.Explained by Christian preacher Joe Kirby from Off the Kirb Ministries in 20 minutes!