Podcasts about bob how

Father Timothy Gallagher joins Patrick to discuss Desolation in Discernment (3:37) Where do Saint Ignatius rules of discernment come from? How to discern between natural and spiritual life that we live. (16:25) what is the secret of Rule 5 in the Spiritual Exercises? (25:20) Break 1 Bob - How does Ignatius' rules for discernment and specifically desolation apply to someone who is also dealing with depression or illness? (30:46) Mary - What's the best way to initiate this teaching to our kids besides us teaching it? (39:31) Break 2 What is the importance in having structure in the prayer life? (44:38) what I the importance of rule 6 in our lives? What are the 4 tools used in spiritual desolation? (48:45) What are some other resources to help against desolation? Resources: Fr. Timothy M. Gallagher, O.M.V. https://www.frtimothygallagher.org/ The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness https://www.amazon.com/Anxious-Generation-Rewiring-Childhood-Epidemic/dp/0593655036

Special Guest Host Ken Hensley Today's episode is a deep dive into Ken's journey from being a Baptist pastor to embracing the Catholic faith. He discusses the critical issues of sola scriptura and the doctrine of justification by faith alone. Ken shares how curiosity led him to question his beliefs and how discovering Catholic teachings transformed his spiritual path.   What is “Justification”? James - How much do you think Martin Luther was influenced by a trip to Rome he took in which saw a lot of problems? (30:30) Andre - I really appreciate what you do and I listened to your 30-part series on the Coming Home Network. (33:48) Bob - How do I talk with friends who don't believe we have a soul? (41:28)

(2:37) Bible Study: 1 Kgs 19:9a, 11-16 Father explains how amazing this passage is. Check it out to have your mind blown! Mt 5:27-32 Jesus talks about adultery and father explains what that means (22:47) Break 1 (24:06) Letters: Father answers the Question of if God is real why can't we see him, and the church's stance on IVF? (34:59) Break 2 (36:08) Word of the Day: Horeb (37:40) Phones: John - War and in the Old Testament, God tells David to conquer various nations. What is the diff b/w just war theory and what happened in the Old Testament? Bob - How do we NOT clap at mass AND not stand out as being different from everybody else at mass?

Patrick doesn't shy away from the complexities of gender identification, discussing biological markers and controversies around chromosomal anomalies. He explores how to lovingly address and walk with loved ones facing gender identity challenges while staying rooted in truth.   Mary Lou - Doctors are worried about the people who are lying about their gender. One almost killed someone because the female patient said they were male, so the doctor upped the drug dosage even though it was dangerous for women. (01:00) Evie – Trans-ideology - most people wouldn't think it was a problem to identify as a person from another race (14:28) Genetics testing company 23andMe investigated over data breach (21:42) Karolee - Credible medical research sources are now changing to fit the new gender norms and are no longer credible. (24:04) Patrick recommends “Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality” by Helen Joyce Anne - I've told our children what the faith believes but they are living with their boyfriend/girlfriends anyway. Are we allowed to visit them? (29:47) Bob - How do you determine gender? (33:49) Email – My child wants to be called a name they chose that doesn't reflect their gender (45:02)

Patrick shares the adventure he was called to in the very early morning hours, where he rescued his dog Charlie from a muddy hole that was filling up with water. This story beautifully transitions into a deeper reflection on the unexpected demands of life and the spiritual insights they can bring, reminding us that sometimes, our responsibilities require immediate attention, no matter our own plans. Patrick also opens the lines to listeners, offering guidance on everything from first holy communions to career dilemmas, always connecting back to how faith can inform and guide daily decisions. Marisol (8-years-old) - Any advice for my first communion? (09:51) Jared - I became Catholic this year and was laid off from a Job. I have two job options and I am wondering which would be more morally right for me to take? (15:36) Stanly - Father Mateo wrote a book about the defense of Marian doctrines in the 90's. Who is Fr. Mateo? (22:38) Cindy - I am both an electrician and I am in sales, so Jared can do both if he wants. Daniel - I think sales people are getting a bad rap. I think that sales people are noble and vital to our economy, if they do it right. (39:08) Bob - How can you pray to the saints? Wouldn't they need to be Omni present? (42:48)

Patrick dives into the heartfelt inquiry about the impact of romantic comedies on single women, comparing it to how pornography affects men. Patrick Madrid thoughtfully addresses this concern, discussing the differences and potential emotional effects of such media. He elaborates on why romantic comedies, generally speaking, do not equate to the moral weight of pornography. Additionally, Patrick touches upon biblical narratives that resonate with themes of romantic pursuit and the personal experience of St. Teresa of Avila with romance novels.   Liz – Are romantic comedies for single women the equivalent of porn? (05:34) Joel (email) – I love how kids are calling into the show! Caroline - I'm looking for a book that gives perspective on assisted suicide. My daughter has been convinced by the arguments in favor of assisted suicide. Do you have recommendations? (18:43) Bob - How did Mary, without sin, reside in her mother's womb if she was without sin? (26:28) Elena - I was discussing the protests yesterday with my 23-year old daughter yesterday. I asked my daughter why the protesters were so angry. She said they're mad because we're sending weapons to Israel. She said we grew up with mass shootings and the government didn't do anything about it. (35:15) James – What's the best way to break free from a pornography addiction? (46:41)

Do you believe equity has finally come to the workplace; that women are now being treated equally with men in business today?This episode of the Lean to the Left podcast features Dr. Regina Lark, author of the new book, Emotional Labor: Why a Woman's Work Is Never Done and What to Do About It.In the interview, conducted by Lean to the Left host Bob Gatty and Mark M. Bello, host of the Justice Counts podcast, Dr. Lark traces developments over the years that were intended to close the male-female work equity gap, and explains why inequality still exists and what can be done about it. She also blasts efforts by Republicans to interfere with women's reproductive health, ban books, and attack the LGBTQ+ community. Their stacking of the U.S. Supreme Court with three conservative justices during the Trump administration while refusing to even consider President Obama's nomination of Merrick Garland was "despicable," she contends.In 2008, before founding her 7-figure company, Dr. Regina Lark excelled in a career in higher education. When budget cuts eliminated her position at UCLA at age 50, Regina started over and created A Clear Path from scratch. Today, Lark and her ninja organizers provide professional physical, emotional, and psychological support to people who wish to clear clutter and chaos from their lives.Dr. Lark holds a Ph. D. in Women's History from the University of Southern California. She helps women rid their lives of emotional labor by offering concrete ways to identify and mitigate the costs of women's unseen, unnoticed and unwaged work at home, and to unleash women into the full potential in the paid workplace.She delivers keynote addresses, retreats and corporate speaking engagements on women's leadership, emotional labor, time management, productivity, hoarding and ADHD.Dr. Lark also is the author of Psychic Debris, Crowded Closets: The Relationship Between the Stuff in Your Head, and What's Under Your Bed.Here some questions we discussed with Dr. Lark:Mark: Quite the resume. Bob and I are proud to have you on our show. This is 2023 and this is a show about justice and injustice. Historically, women have not been treated equally in the workplace. However, here we are, almost a quarter into the 21st Century. Women have finally achieved equality in the workplace, right?Bob: You've often used the term “household management.” What is it and why is it considered “women's work?” And, if you can, please give our audience some historical context.Mark: You also use the term “emotional labor,” especially in your Ted Talk. Please define the term in the context of the inherent inequities women still face in the workplace.Bob: How is emotional labor performed at home? What does it look like?Mark: The saying goes “a woman's work is never done.” Is that still true? And, if so, what can society do about it?Bob: What are some reasons for the unequal distribution of work in the home? Are men inherently better at certain things and women better at others?Mark: If you could wave a magic wand, how would you create equity in your own household and in society's unequal, unjust workplace?Bob: If couples and their children thought of their home as a business, would the structure and delegation of the work inside the home change? If so, how?Mark: A person out there is what society still calls a “stay at home Mom.” She's frustrated by the burdens of Emotional Labor. What can she do to stop the never-ending cycle?Bob: Why is delegating and outsourcing so integral to lifting the burden of emotional labor? Mark: How do we become better delegators?Mark: I believe that men have had since the beginning of time their chance to rule the world and they've screwed it up. It is high time for woman to ascend to the throne—I believe that will do a far better job. Is that possible sometime soon? Is there any hope for true equality or a world led by women?Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-lean-to-the-left-podcast--4719048/support.

Do you believe equity has finally come to the workplace; that women are now being treated equally with men in business today?This episode of the Lean to the Left podcast features Dr. Regina Lark, author of the new book, Emotional Labor: Why a Woman's Work Is Never Done and What to Do About It.In the interview, conducted by Lean to the Left host Bob Gatty and Mark M. Bello, host of the Justice Counts podcast, Dr. Lark traces developments over the years that were intended to close the male-female work equity gap, and explains why inequality still exists and what can be done about it. She also blasts efforts by Republicans to interfere with women's reproductive health, ban books, and attack the LGBTQ+ community. Their stacking of the U.S. Supreme Court with three conservative justices during the Trump administration while refusing to even consider President Obama's nomination of Merrick Garland was "despicable," she contends.In 2008, before founding her 7-figure company, Dr. Regina Lark excelled in a career in higher education. When budget cuts eliminated her position at UCLA at age 50, Regina started over and created A Clear Path from scratch. Today, Lark and her ninja organizers provide professional physical, emotional, and psychological support to people who wish to clear clutter and chaos from their lives.Dr. Lark holds a Ph. D. in Women's History from the University of Southern California. She helps women rid their lives of emotional labor by offering concrete ways to identify and mitigate the costs of women's unseen, unnoticed and unwaged work at home, and to unleash women into the full potential in the paid workplace.She delivers keynote addresses, retreats and corporate speaking engagements on women's leadership, emotional labor, time management, productivity, hoarding and ADHD.Dr. Lark also is the author of Psychic Debris, Crowded Closets: The Relationship Between the Stuff in Your Head, and What's Under Your Bed.Here some questions we discussed with Dr. Lark:Mark: Quite the resume. Bob and I are proud to have you on our show. This is 2023 and this is a show about justice and injustice. Historically, women have not been treated equally in the workplace. However, here we are, almost a quarter into the 21st Century. Women have finally achieved equality in the workplace, right?Bob: You've often used the term “household management.” What is it and why is it considered “women's work?” And, if you can, please give our audience some historical context.Mark: You also use the term “emotional labor,” especially in your Ted Talk. Please define the term in the context of the inherent inequities women still face in the workplace.Bob: How is emotional labor performed at home? What does it look like?Mark: The saying goes “a woman's work is never done.” Is that still true? And, if so, what can society do about it?Bob: What are some reasons for the unequal distribution of work in the home? Are men inherently better at certain things and women better at others?Mark: If you could wave a magic wand, how would you create equity in your own household and in society's unequal, unjust workplace?Bob: If couples and their children thought of their home as a business, would the structure and delegation of the work inside the home change? If so, how?Mark: A person out there is what society still calls a “stay at home Mom.” She's frustrated by the burdens of Emotional Labor. What can she do to stop the never-ending cycle?Bob: Why is delegating and outsourcing so integral to lifting the burden of emotional labor? Mark: How do we become better delegators?Mark: I believe that men have had since the beginning of time their chance to rule the world and they've screwed it up. It is high time for woman to ascend to the throne—I believe that will do a far better job. Is that possible sometime soon? Is there any hope for true equality or a world led by women?This show is part of the Spreaker Prime Network, if you are interested in advertising on this podcast, contact us at https://www.spreaker.com/show/4719048/advertisement

【句子】For your information, you came out of the womb like that. 【ModernFamilyS3E12】【发音】/fə(r)/ /jə(r)/ /ˌɪn.fə(r)ˈmeɪ.ʃən/ /juː/ /keɪm/ /aʊt/ /əv/ /ðə/ /wuːm/ /laɪk/ /ðæt/【发音技巧】came out连读；out of连读+闪音；like that不完全爆破；【翻译】我可以告诉你，你自出生以来就是这么争强好胜。【适用场合】今天我们来学习一下，for your information的用法，这个短语可以理解成：“只是让你知道；供你参考”这样的意思；经常被简写成FYI，看电视或者美剧里也比较常见。It is used to tell sb. that they are wrong about sth.这个短语经常表达了一种：“你之前说的是错的”这样的意思；eg: For your information, I don't even have a car.供你参考一下，我连一辆车都没有。eg: For your information, this is my sister, not my girlfriend.跟你说一声，这是我姐，不是我女朋友。eg: For your information, I was here at 7 AM. I just didn't see you.供你参考一下，我早晨七点钟就在这里了，我没见到你。eg: -- "Are these the best tickets you could get?" -- "For your information, I had to stand in line for two hours to get these!"-- “这些就是你能买到的最好的票了吗？”-- “跟你讲一下，就为了买这些票，我不得不在队伍里站着等了俩小时！”【尝试翻译以下句子，并留言在文章留言区】eg: Bob: How long do I have to wait here? Bill: For your information, we will be here until the bus driver feels that it is safe to travel.

Christian conservatives, led by a cabal of wealthy, influential Republicans, have executed a long, drawn out coup that now gives them virtually ironclad control of the U.S. Supreme Court, which is supposed to be the final legal arbiter in our country that protects freedom for us all.Instead, according to Andrew L. Seidel, an author and attorney who's defended the First Amendment for more than a decade, conservative Christians, through the appointment of the six right-wing justices who now hold a super majority, have turned religious liberty on its head.In his new book, "American Crusade," Seidel details how conservative Christians have achieved that takeover, how it has affected numerous major decisions, and what can be expected in the future if left unchecked.Seidel exposes the “Crusaders,” powerful right-wing Christian conservatives who are systematically working to, as he writes, “elevate Christian beliefs above the law and exempt Christians from the law, while disfavoring non-religious and non-Christian citizens who are required to follow the law.”He issues a stark warning: “The First Amendment is being destroyed. In its place, Crusaders are forging a weapon to ensure their supremacy.”All of this is discussed in this interview for the Lean to the Left and Justice Counts podcasts, co-hosted by myself and author/attorney Mark M. Bello.Questions:MARK: I want to ask you a two part question that is top of mind in America right now. Part 1: Was Roe v Wade correctly decided? Part 2: Almost 50 years later, should it have been sustained on stare decisis grounds? MARK: Considering the outcome of Dobbs v Jackson Women's Health, do you think other social justice decisions are at risk? Gay rights, public schools, contraception, for instance? And why doesn't equal protection or due process apply to these situations?Bob: In your book, you leave no doubt about the danger of the current Conservative Supreme Court, citing case after case where decisions have been based on religious grounds rather than the law. Can you share just a few of those examples?Mark: I'm dubious that Ketanji Brown Jackson will have any impact at all. What's your take and is there anything in the short term that can curb this unchecked supermajority? Bob: Reports indicate that conservative justices appear ready to end race-conscious admission decisions at colleges and universities. Chief Justice Roberts also has temporarily halted release of Donald Trump's tax records to a congressional committee. Are these further examples of the influence of right-wing politics on the court?Bob: Part of the mandate of the 1st Amendment is the separation of church and state. Under the current court, is that in peril?Mark: I believe that Christian nationalism is alive and well in this country, and it is seeping into the court's decision-making. Andrew: Don't you see the court trending toward the religious right's agenda on a number of issues, especially LGBTQ issues, private school funding, and 1st Amendment Separation of Church and State cases like American Legion v. American Humanist Association? As to American Legion, as a Jewish guy and a constitutionalist, I find the argument that the cross has taken on “secular meaning” laughable. I agree with Justice Ginsburg, may she rest in peace, who said in her dissenting opinion: The cross is the foremost symbol of the Christian faith.” Using it as a war memorial doesn't change that fact. This was PUBLIC land. What's your view?Mark: And how about Lemon v Kurtzman? In an 8-1 decision, the high court decided that statutes that provide state funding for non-public, non-secular schools violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. How do you think the case would be decided today?Bob: Let's talk about Masterpiece Cake Shop where the shop refused to make a wedding cake for a same-sex couple on religious grounds, or the Obergefell v Hodges case that permitted same-sex marriage. These were decided differently, obviously. Would today's court decide Masterpiece the same way and overturn Obergefell? You discuss them in detail in your book. Mark: In Tandon v Newsom, the current conservative majority even prioritized the religious right over common sense COVID safety measures. What's your view of that decision?Mark: Can we talk about the Constitution, itself, for a moment? For instance, what's your take on the evolution of the 2nd Amendment? How do we go from “A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed” to you can own military assault rifles?Mark: And a broader question. I presume you would agree with me that the Constitution was a legal document, a framework for our federal, state, and local laws. It was not meant as a political document, correct? But, it has certainly become one. What do you make of people who I call constitutional hypocrites, who selectively enforce certain constitutional provision, but ignore others. In my view, the pollicization of the court is an example of this-do you agree? I don't think the framers foresaw these political battles, do you?Bob: How can we as citizens protect ourselves from the next Dobbs? Only next time it will be a case that brings down marriage equality, access to contraceptives, or changes how we fund schools. How do we stop the madness?Mark: Last question: You've been invited to lecture at a bar association meeting welcoming new lawyers into the profession. What do you tell these fresh young kids about constitutional freedoms, the 1st Amendment, and the separation of church and state? Forget what you learned in law school?Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-lean-to-the-left-podcast--4719048/support.

Christian conservatives, led by a cabal of wealthy, influential Republicans, have executed a long, drawn out coup that now gives them virtually ironclad control of the U.S. Supreme Court, which is supposed to be the final legal arbiter in our country that protects freedom for us all.Instead, according to Andrew L. Seidel, an author and attorney who's defended the First Amendment for more than a decade, conservative Christians, through the appointment of the six right-wing justices who now hold a super majority, have turned religious liberty on its head.In his new book, "American Crusade," Seidel details how conservative Christians have achieved that takeover, how it has affected numerous major decisions, and what can be expected in the future if left unchecked.Seidel exposes the “Crusaders,” powerful right-wing Christian conservatives who are systematically working to, as he writes, “elevate Christian beliefs above the law and exempt Christians from the law, while disfavoring non-religious and non-Christian citizens who are required to follow the law.”He issues a stark warning: “The First Amendment is being destroyed. In its place, Crusaders are forging a weapon to ensure their supremacy.”All of this is discussed in this interview for the Lean to the Left and Justice Counts podcasts, co-hosted by myself and author/attorney Mark M. Bello.Questions:MARK: I want to ask you a two part question that is top of mind in America right now. Part 1: Was Roe v Wade correctly decided? Part 2: Almost 50 years later, should it have been sustained on stare decisis grounds? MARK: Considering the outcome of Dobbs v Jackson Women's Health, do you think other social justice decisions are at risk? Gay rights, public schools, contraception, for instance? And why doesn't equal protection or due process apply to these situations?Bob: In your book, you leave no doubt about the danger of the current Conservative Supreme Court, citing case after case where decisions have been based on religious grounds rather than the law. Can you share just a few of those examples?Mark: I'm dubious that Ketanji Brown Jackson will have any impact at all. What's your take and is there anything in the short term that can curb this unchecked supermajority? Bob: Reports indicate that conservative justices appear ready to end race-conscious admission decisions at colleges and universities. Chief Justice Roberts also has temporarily halted release of Donald Trump's tax records to a congressional committee. Are these further examples of the influence of right-wing politics on the court?Bob: Part of the mandate of the 1st Amendment is the separation of church and state. Under the current court, is that in peril?Mark: I believe that Christian nationalism is alive and well in this country, and it is seeping into the court's decision-making. Andrew: Don't you see the court trending toward the religious right's agenda on a number of issues, especially LGBTQ issues, private school funding, and 1st Amendment Separation of Church and State cases like American Legion v. American Humanist Association? As to American Legion, as a Jewish guy and a constitutionalist, I find the argument that the cross has taken on “secular meaning” laughable. I agree with Justice Ginsburg, may she rest in peace, who said in her dissenting opinion: The cross is the foremost symbol of the Christian faith.” Using it as a war memorial doesn't change that fact. This was PUBLIC land. What's your view?Mark: And how about Lemon v Kurtzman? In an 8-1 decision, the high court decided that statutes that provide state funding for non-public, non-secular schools violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. How do you think the case would be decided today?Bob: Let's talk about Masterpiece Cake Shop where the shop refused to make a wedding cake for a same-sex couple on religious grounds, or the Obergefell v Hodges case that permitted same-sex marriage. These were decided differently, obviously. Would today's court decide Masterpiece the same way and overturn Obergefell? You discuss them in detail in your book. Mark: In Tandon v Newsom, the current conservative majority even prioritized the religious right over common sense COVID safety measures. What's your view of that decision?Mark: Can we talk about the Constitution, itself, for a moment? For instance, what's your take on the evolution of the 2nd Amendment? How do we go from “A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed” to you can own military assault rifles?Mark: And a broader question. I presume you would agree with me that the Constitution was a legal document, a framework for our federal, state, and local laws. It was not meant as a political document, correct? But, it has certainly become one. What do you make of people who I call constitutional hypocrites, who selectively enforce certain constitutional provision, but ignore others. In my view, the pollicization of the court is an example of this-do you agree? I don't think the framers foresaw these political battles, do you?Bob: How can we as citizens protect ourselves from the next Dobbs? Only next time it will be a case that brings down marriage equality, access to contraceptives, or changes how we fund schools. How do we stop the madness?Mark: Last question: You've been invited to lecture at a bar association meeting welcoming new lawyers into the profession. What do you tell these fresh young kids about constitutional freedoms, the 1st Amendment, and the separation of church and state? Forget what you learned in law school?

In February 2020, attorney Joseph Fawbush wrote a piece for Findlaw.com entitled “Good News! People Think Lawyers Have an Average Amount of Integrity Now.”Just average?It's an old cliche. We often deride lawyers, often calling them "ambulance chasers," and it's no wonder given the seemingly never ending plethora of ads for law firms promising big payoffs if you're in an accident or are mistreated in a nursing home.But what's the inside story? Do lawyers really abuse the system when there's a lawsuit that results in a big judgement for the plaintiffs? Do they walk away with most of the money instead of the victims? Remember the famous Blockbuster case in which millions of customers who unfairly had been charged late fees received coupons instead of cash, while the lawyers who presented the case received millions? Filthy rich lawyers, indeed!In this episode of the Lean to the Left podcast, which also appeared on the Justice Counts podcast, legal thriller author/attorney Mark M. Bello and I take a look at this issue. It comes in an interview with attorney Brian Felgoise and co-author David Tabatsky who collaborated to write a new book, "Filthy Rich Lawyers, the Education of Ryan Coleman." It's a sometimes hilarious novel, and the opening scene sets the stage when a young, ambitious lawyer, Coleman, decked out in his best suit and fancy shoes, is dressed down by the judge for falsely claiming that his $250,000 share of a settlement would not come out of the plaintiff's piece of the pie. That scene draws you in, and as a reader, you're hooked.The attorney author, Brian Felgoise, is a graduate of Temple University Law School and has been practicing class-action law for more than 25 years, including cases where billions of dollars have been recovered for class members who lost a significant amount of money.David Tabatsky has authored, co-authored and edited many novels, including The Boy Behind the Door, Friends Like These, The Marijuana Project, The Battle of Zig Zag Pass and Drunk Log. His memoir, American Misfit, was published in 2017. Tabatsky was consulting editor for Marlo Thomas and her New York Times bestseller, The Right Words at the Right Time, Volume 2. Here's a sample of some of the questions asked and answered during the interview:Mark: There are a lot of great one-liners in the book. Here's one that sums the whole thing up: “It's a dirty job, and someone's got to do it.” Does this book play into every terrible stereotype of lawyers, or does it have something complimentary to say?Bob: In the book, there are multiple examples of lawyers receiving fees way out of proportion to the plaintiffs' recoveries. I remember the Blockbuster litigation where the litigants each got a 5 buck coupon and the lawyer's made millions. Are lawyers paid fairly in these cases or does the system need a fix?Mark: On the other side of the equation, as the book points out, you have multiple evil companies, Enron, Halliburton, Charel, Perdue Pharma, FenPhen, Big tobacco, and others, that kill, make sick, or screw people or the government out of billions. With lives and billions of dollars at stake in these cases, fees should be large for all that hard work and the recovery of all that money? A class action is really the most expedient way to resolve cases like this, true?Mark: I loved the Haliburton no-bid contract whistle-blower story in the book. That is a true story, right? Lawyers did a good job on that one, didn't they? Then you've got Enron, where lawyers received $688 million, 5 times their billable hours. Shouldn't a judge check that, as the book points out? In the book, you use the example where a painter quotes $400 to paint the house. The homeowner offers him $2,000. Should he refuse the money? Who would refuse? Should lawyers police themselves? Bob: Here's one of those quotes Mark talked about, from a big shot lawyer in the book: “I do not give a shit about Class Members. You hear me? I am only concerned with the riches I develop from the practice of law.” Is this a stereotype or true? Are there any lawyers out there who do what they do to help people or is it all just a money grab? Mark: The book is very funny. I went to David's website. As a Jewish boy myself, I enjoyed all his schtick, especially the fact that he performed magic and comedy at bar mitzvahs. I presume he's the one with the sense of humor, but is Brian funny too?Bob: Here's another big shot quote in the book: “I have the greatest practice of law in the world because I have no clients.” How can you have a practice with no clients? Is that possible in real life? Mark: Coleman and Waterman (one of the experienced guys) share an older lawyer, younger lawyer moment. The same thing happens with Coleman and Smalley, later in the book. The quote I want to point out is: “Do not speak unless spoken to.” Also, Smalley calls Coleman “son” in one of the scenes. I remember, early in my legal career, I've got a small case with this older hotshot, and he says to me: “Son, let me give you a lesson in the law.” I declined. We tried the case, and I kicked his ass. Were these situations based on real experiences in your life?Mark: And how about Coleman's initial go around with the judge? I loved it. We've all been there. A judge who goes out of his or her way to try to humiliate a young lawyer in front of his client. Very similar to the older lawyer, younger lawyer situation. After she puts on a show for the voters, she signs the order. So typical, right?Bob: Brian: How much of you is in Ryan Coleman? I don't want to ruin the book for anyone, but do the big boys succeed in corrupting him, or “educating” him as the book refers to it?Bob: And what about the world of $375 million yacht and $16,000 bottles of booze, and expensive hookers for class action lawyers. Fact or fiction?Mark: I think it was Smalley who said: “You see, Coleman, when I establish my position, no matter what it is, I will fight to the death. I'm not ever going to give up.” Is that really what it takes to be successful? No names, but is he based on a real lawyer?Bob: Another line in the book: “Practicing law is the opposite of sex. Even when it's good, it's bad.” Do you believe that, or is it just a funny line in a novel?Mark: How much of the story or the anecdotes in the story are true? How about the one where the senior partner comes in and finds a bag of shit on his desk? True?Mark: And the federal prosecutor wanting to take down Hollis and essentially blackmailing Coleman to do it. Is that based on fact?Mark: After making all that money in the class action world, why did you need to write a book? Don't you have all the money you need? Share some with David. Bob: How can people find you and your books?Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-lean-to-the-left-podcast--4719048/support.

In February 2020, attorney Joseph Fawbush wrote a piece for Findlaw.com entitled “Good News! People Think Lawyers Have an Average Amount of Integrity Now.”Just average?It's an old cliche. We often deride lawyers, often calling them "ambulance chasers," and it's no wonder given the seemingly never ending plethora of ads for law firms promising big payoffs if you're in an accident or are mistreated in a nursing home.But what's the inside story? Do lawyers really abuse the system when there's a lawsuit that results in a big judgement for the plaintiffs? Do they walk away with most of the money instead of the victims? Remember the famous Blockbuster case in which millions of customers who unfairly had been charged late fees received coupons instead of cash, while the lawyers who presented the case received millions? Filthy rich lawyers, indeed!In this episode of the Lean to the Left podcast, which also appeared on the Justice Counts podcast, legal thriller author/attorney Mark M. Bello and I take a look at this issue. It comes in an interview with attorney Brian Felgoise and co-author David Tabatsky who collaborated to write a new book, "Filthy Rich Lawyers, the Education of Ryan Coleman." It's a sometimes hilarious novel, and the opening scene sets the stage when a young, ambitious lawyer, Coleman, decked out in his best suit and fancy shoes, is dressed down by the judge for falsely claiming that his $250,000 share of a settlement would not come out of the plaintiff's piece of the pie. That scene draws you in, and as a reader, you're hooked.The attorney author, Brian Felgoise, is a graduate of Temple University Law School and has been practicing class-action law for more than 25 years, including cases where billions of dollars have been recovered for class members who lost a significant amount of money.David Tabatsky has authored, co-authored and edited many novels, including The Boy Behind the Door, Friends Like These, The Marijuana Project, The Battle of Zig Zag Pass and Drunk Log. His memoir, American Misfit, was published in 2017. Tabatsky was consulting editor for Marlo Thomas and her New York Times bestseller, The Right Words at the Right Time, Volume 2. Here's a sample of some of the questions asked and answered during the interview:Mark: There are a lot of great one-liners in the book. Here's one that sums the whole thing up: “It's a dirty job, and someone's got to do it.” Does this book play into every terrible stereotype of lawyers, or does it have something complimentary to say?Bob: In the book, there are multiple examples of lawyers receiving fees way out of proportion to the plaintiffs' recoveries. I remember the Blockbuster litigation where the litigants each got a 5 buck coupon and the lawyer's made millions. Are lawyers paid fairly in these cases or does the system need a fix?Mark: On the other side of the equation, as the book points out, you have multiple evil companies, Enron, Halliburton, Charel, Perdue Pharma, FenPhen, Big tobacco, and others, that kill, make sick, or screw people or the government out of billions. With lives and billions of dollars at stake in these cases, fees should be large for all that hard work and the recovery of all that money? A class action is really the most expedient way to resolve cases like this, true?Mark: I loved the Haliburton no-bid contract whistle-blower story in the book. That is a true story, right? Lawyers did a good job on that one, didn't they? Then you've got Enron, where lawyers received $688 million, 5 times their billable hours. Shouldn't a judge check that, as the book points out? In the book, you use the example where a painter quotes $400 to paint the house. The homeowner offers him $2,000. Should he refuse the money? Who would refuse? Should lawyers police themselves? Bob: Here's one of those quotes Mark talked about, from a big shot lawyer in the book: “I do not give a shit about Class Members. You hear me? I am only concerned with the riches I develop from the practice of law.” Is this a stereotype or true? Are there any lawyers out there who do what they do to help people or is it all just a money grab? Mark: The book is very funny. I went to David's website. As a Jewish boy myself, I enjoyed all his schtick, especially the fact that he performed magic and comedy at bar mitzvahs. I presume he's the one with the sense of humor, but is Brian funny too?Bob: Here's another big shot quote in the book: “I have the greatest practice of law in the world because I have no clients.” How can you have a practice with no clients? Is that possible in real life? Mark: Coleman and Waterman (one of the experienced guys) share an older lawyer, younger lawyer moment. The same thing happens with Coleman and Smalley, later in the book. The quote I want to point out is: “Do not speak unless spoken to.” Also, Smalley calls Coleman “son” in one of the scenes. I remember, early in my legal career, I've got a small case with this older hotshot, and he says to me: “Son, let me give you a lesson in the law.” I declined. We tried the case, and I kicked his ass. Were these situations based on real experiences in your life?Mark: And how about Coleman's initial go around with the judge? I loved it. We've all been there. A judge who goes out of his or her way to try to humiliate a young lawyer in front of his client. Very similar to the older lawyer, younger lawyer situation. After she puts on a show for the voters, she signs the order. So typical, right?Bob: Brian: How much of you is in Ryan Coleman? I don't want to ruin the book for anyone, but do the big boys succeed in corrupting him, or “educating” him as the book refers to it?Bob: And what about the world of $375 million yacht and $16,000 bottles of booze, and expensive hookers for class action lawyers. Fact or fiction?Mark: I think it was Smalley who said: “You see, Coleman, when I establish my position, no matter what it is, I will fight to the death. I'm not ever going to give up.” Is that really what it takes to be successful? No names, but is he based on a real lawyer?Bob: Another line in the book: “Practicing law is the opposite of sex. Even when it's good, it's bad.” Do you believe that, or is it just a funny line in a novel?Mark: How much of the story or the anecdotes in the story are true? How about the one where the senior partner comes in and finds a bag of shit on his desk? True?Mark: And the federal prosecutor wanting to take down Hollis and essentially blackmailing Coleman to do it. Is that based on fact?Mark: After making all that money in the class action world, why did you need to write a book? Don't you have all the money you need? Share some with David. Bob: How can people find you and your books?

Forecasting Trump raid fallout ... Could the Dems bring back “Build Back Better”? ... Bob and Mickey compare blue-collar bona fides ... Scoring Biden's recent PR wins and losses ... What's scarier: social media, the FBI, or your Roomba? ... Ukraine war update ... Bob: How ‘defending' Taiwan could get it invaded ... Parrot Room Preview: The Blobsters advising the White House, yet more Jonah Goldberg trash-talk, Mickey's car-buying blues, Bob's rave CRV road-trip review, where in the world is Ghislaine Maxwell?, Mickey's meritocracy conundrum, AI takeover, Saudi golf tour talk, Bob shorts "longtermism" ...

Forecasting Trump raid fallout ... Could the Dems bring back “Build Back Better”? ... Bob and Mickey compare blue-collar bona fides ... Scoring Biden's recent PR wins and losses ... What's scarier: social media, the FBI, or your Roomba? ... Ukraine war update ... Bob: How ‘defending' Taiwan could get it invaded ... Parrot Room Preview: The Blobsters advising the White House, yet more Jonah Goldberg trash-talk, Mickey's car-buying blues, Bob's rave CRV road-trip review, where in the world is Ghislaine Maxwell?, Mickey's meritocracy conundrum, AI takeover, Saudi golf tour talk, Bob shorts "longtermism" ...

Shownotes can be found at https://www.profitwithlaw.com/300. For the 300th episode, Moshe celebrates by answering questions from our listeners: 5:34 Barbara: If you have a small solo PI Law firm with a Marketing Budget of $2,000/month, what marketing channels would you suggest for such a small budget? 18:20 Beverly: What was your favorite episode you shot out of the 300? 23:46 Bob: How does one get free life without burnout? 28:59 Mc'Maclon: What are the secrets of becoming a solopreneur? 33:15 Eric: With inflation as high as it is, how do we make sure our rates are competitive, fair, and aligned to what the market is?   Resources mentioned:   Episode 49 - Getting Over 1,000 Google Reviews with Sam Mollaei - https://www.profitwithlaw.com/049   Four Hour Work Week by Tim Ferriss https://www.profitwithlaw.com/4HourWorkweek Join our Facebook Community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/lawfirmgrowthsummit/   To request a show topic, recommend a guest or ask a question for the show, please send an email to info@dreambuilderfinancial.com.   Connect with Moshe on: Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/moshe.amsel LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/mosheamsel/

TOPICS: 1:11 Becoming involved in DODEA, Teaching 2:40 Goals and Career Aspirations, Minor League Baseball 4:25 Heroes and Role Models 5:30 WWII Draft 10:05 Looking back on World War II 13:18 Life after the war, returning home 14:48 Early days of DODEA, Teaching in Tobacco Warehouse in Turkey 20:48 Difficulties managing the growing size of DODEA 26:40 Pushback from host countries during Vietnam Era 29:33 Previous administration's impacts on DODEA, NATO, Paris Climate Agreement etc. 33:15 The Core Values of a Military Brat 34:35 Civil Rights Movement of the 60s 36:58 The Moon Landing 38:20 Tearing down of the Berlin Wall 39:55 9/11 42:20 What is something that exists today that you never thought would exist? 44:13 What concerns you about the future? 46:22 Founding of The Museum of the American Military Family 50:15 Instagram question from Maddie: What is something from the past that you want our generation to remember? 51:45 Instagram question from Bob: How does Army training today compare to back then? 54:00 What's next? Check out Dr. Olson's interview with DODEA here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIsv64LT5I0 The Shanon Show is proudly a part of Museum of the American Military Family Media. Go check out the museum's website and submit stories for this year's DODEA 75th Anniversary anthology! --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/theshanonshow/support

Today's Topic – Let’s Build a new Campaign, part 3   Please Subscribe, Rate and Review us on iTunesFor complete Fantasy Worldbuilding, show notes go to Gardul.com  Podcast Show Flow Character conflict / ensembleß Theme: What lines are too far? And is good and bad? Lizard since of family Why the invasion In search of food You are just a cow Closest island is running out of food High Fantasy ß The Journey for the Item ß The Frog hero bob is not of the right class Shamans for war Gender swapping frog What changes the way things are First contact this time with lizard Climax Choose Finally to change beneath to farm tool power gain Peaceful Pete learns about family connection to frogs Forged by a god Path to resolution What is the setback for Pete How does he recover What is the setback for Bob How does he recover What happens when Bob gets the item Prove the relation is key to peace Trident is needed Main story resolution Bob becomes looses all gender and uses trident to prove the link Peaceful Pete – Holds the Alamo and new shaman follow Pete’s Evil Ed (Lizard Leader) - Exiled with Shaman Silly Shamans() - Exiled with Shaman Side quests and Random scenes stored Character log Player knowledge The next season Characters Details WBT Think about resolution and conclusion RW  Task                 Listen means more than hearing Michael's Resources Use Gardul.com/Amazon when shopping online to help support the show Were alive Podcast Links ((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Visit Show notes ))))))))))))))))))))))))) https://gardul.com/blog/season-2-episode-24-mending-the-campaign-2/https://www.gardul.com/blog/season-2-episode-21-searching-for-the-devil/ ((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Mentions links ))))))))))))))))))))))))) https://www.gardul.com/blog/season-2-episode-8-frame-and-go/   ((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Rate and Review us in iTunes ))))))))))))))))))))))))) https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/worldbuilders-anvil/id956705643   ((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Like our Facebook Page ))))))))))))))))))))))))) https://www.facebook.com/GardulStories/   ((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Join our Facebook Group ))))))))))))))))))))))))) https://www.facebook.com/groups/undercroft/   ((((((((((((((((((((((( Support us by using our Amazon Affiliate Link ))))))))))))))))))))) http://gardul.com/Amazon   ((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Jeff on Twitter  ))))))))))))))))))))))))) https://twitter.com/JefferyWIngram

Two Canadians meet. Bob: “How's it going, eh?” Doug: “I got married last week and then won a million dollars in the lottery, so not too bad, eh! How's it going with you?” “How's it going, eh?” is the Canadian version of “How are you?” or the more formal “How do you do?” As for “eh” — pronounced like the letter A — well, that's what makes it Canadian, eh. “Eh” is what linguists call a tag — a word or a phrase added to a statement that can change its meaning or function. For example, add a negative tag to a positive statement to turn it into a tag question: “This pizza is delicious, isn't it?” The same trick can be used with negative statements and positive tags: “You don't like pineapple on pizza, do you?” Other English-speaking cultures don't seem to use “eh” much, but it's a signature of Canadian English, like talking about winter weather or the local hockey team. “Eh” invites people into a discussion or to offer an opinion. It is both polite and inclusive. Adding “eh” makes the speaker seem less sure of what they are saying and makes the statement less forceful, as if the speaker wants you to agree with them. It's less strong, more neutral, more understated. (Kevin Wood) To be continued… This article was provided by The Japan Times Alpha.

We are training them how to become purified and happy. That is our mission we want to see everyone happy. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. People do not know how to become happy. They do not take the standard path to become happy. They manufacture their own way. That is the difficulty. Therefore, Ṛṣabhadeva gave this advice to his sons: “My dear boys, just undergo austerity for transcendental realization.” Everyone is performing austerity. This boy I know—he had to go to a foreign country to learn commercial management. Now he is well situated. In this way. everyone must undergo some austerity for future life. So why not take that austerity for permanent happiness? You have to purify your existence and your body. As many times as you accept a material body, you will have to change it. But as soon as you get a spiritual body, there is no question of change. You already have a spiritual body. Now, due to our material contamination, we are developing the material body. But if we associate with spiritual life, then we shall develop a spiritual body. The same example I have several times given is that if you put an iron rod within fire, it will become like fire. Is it not? Bob: Put the iron rod into fire? Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, and it will become like fire. Bob: Yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda: Although iron. Bob: Yes. Śrīla Prabhupāda: Similarly, if you always keep yourself spiritually engaged, your body will act spiritually, although it is material. The same example: when an iron rod is red-hot, touch it anywhere, and it will burn. It takes on the quality of fire. Similarly, if you always keep yourself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you will become spiritualized. You will act spiritually. No more material demands. Bob: How do I do this? Śrīla Prabhupāda: This process.... | Read along with me: www.biglink.to/perfect_questions_perfect_answers

Today we've read chapter 3 “The Goal of Life”: Bob: [...] So if the soul is inside me, then should I be able to feel God inside me? Not all of God, I mean, but a... Śrīla Prabhupāda: Part of God. Bob: But I don't feel God in me, but God may be here, separate - separate from me. But should I be able to feel God inside me, since my soul is Part of God? Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. God is inside also. God is everywhere. God is inside and outside also. This is to be known. Bob: How do you feel God inside you? Śrīla Prabhupāda: Not in the beginning, but you have to know from the śāstras (scriptures), by the Vedic information. For example, in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati: (BG 18.61) God is there in everyone's heart. Paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham: God is also within every atom. So this is the first information. And then, by the yogic process, you have to realize it. Bob: Yogic process? Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: Is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa such a yogic process? Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, it is also a yogic process. Bob: What kind of yogic process must I do to find out - to feel this information - to feel the soul inside? Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, there are many different yogic Processes, but for this age this process is very nice. Bob: Chanting. Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. Bob: Through this I can feel not only God outside but God inside? Śrīla Prabhupāda: You'll understand everything of God - how God is inside, how God is outside, how God is working. Everything will be revealed. By this attitude of service, God will reveal Himself. You cannot understand God by your endeavor. Only if God reveals Himself. For instance, when the sun is out of your sight at night, you cannot see it by your torchlight, or any light. But in the morning .... | read along with us! www.biglink.to/perfect_questions_perfect_answers

Summary: We talk about "disruption" in business all the time, but we rarely expect disruption to come from the external. The population's reaction to Coronavirus / COVID-19 has disrupted everything including business. Some businesses are being affected in immediate ways, and others will see lagging affects, but no business is immune. Regardless, we know that seasons will come and go. Winter will always come, it will be hard, but the shedding will produce fruit IF we adapt appropriately. In this special episode we unpack how we are seeing the effects of Coronavirus in our businesses and how we are processing dealing with them.    Resources Mentioned:  Ford vs Ferrari (Available on Amazon Prime) Remote - Office Not Required by Jason Fried (Founders of Basecamp ) A 4 Step Leadership Framework for Making Healthy Decisions Not Based in Fear Slack: https://slack.com/ Basecamp: https://basecamp.com  Zoom: https://zoom.us/ Dropbox: www.dropbox.com   Top 3 Curtain Pulls in this episode: Radically recognize that your business WILL be affected from this situation in some way. The sooner we accept this fact, the sooner we can go from reacting and surviving to responding and thrivin in this experience (this applies to all times in life, not just a global pandemic).  Slack Basecamp Dropbox Zoom Maximize your team’s work-from-home productivity with systems and processes, then of course the tools that we all use and love:  It is vital to seek out balance between what we can control and what we can’t. Don’t live life in fear. Commit to live in abundance and adapt.   About The Guys:  Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from from 2000 -2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob:  Bob on LinkedIn twitter.com/BobHutchins instagram.com/bwhutchins Bob on Facebook Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad: Brad on LinkedIn Anthem Republic twitter.com/bradayres instagram.com/therealbradayres facebook.com/Bradayres Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken:  Ken on LinkedIn Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team Growth Rebel TV twitter.com/iamKenOtt instagram.com/iamKenOtt facebook.com/iamKenOtt   Show Notes: [0:35] Bob mentions the Coroniavirus (Covid-19) and refers to his recent article. “We talk a lot about disruption, right… this disruption is coming from the outside that we have no control over this time… It’s not Facebook being disruptive or Apple being disruptive… Let’s discuss how we’re being affected by it, by our clients that are being affected by it.” [2:13] “Anytime you’re disrupted by anything, it’s hard but it causes you to adapt and that ultimately is a good thing. And so how are we doing that?” [2:16] Bob: “How are we learning from this? This is a huge lesson that we are being given whether we like it or not.” [2:24] Brad: “Is this a gift? Is that what you’re saying?”  [2:41] Bob: “I know that there’s the reality of people dying in pain and there’s a lot of negative things that go along with it. But when it’s all said and done… I think we’ll look back and say wow the Coronavirus was the end of… fill in the blank. And those are the things maybe that we can learn from this and adapt as well.” [4:32] Ken speaks on the widespread business effects of the virus- tourism, music, restaurants, etc- “But in our world, the agency world, we often operate in the digital world… but our clients maybe not right? So that’s why we’re here today- to talk about we as agency owners can help other businesses that are being affected… And then the other area that might be interesting is Are we being affected right now?” [5:04] Ken speaks on how it’s important to understand that just because you work in the digital world, or just because you can go remote quickly or easily doesn’t mean that you won’t be impacted. It’s important as a business leader that you are looking ahead. “If we’re not looking ahead, that’s probably very naive and unwise. And so today we want to sort of looking ahead to that.” [5:44] Brad gives his take and the way his business is being impacted. “I think within the next week or so I’ll begin seeing some immediate effects.”  Currently he can feel some clients scrambling to make changes, to prepare for what is to come. They want to ensure that their business is able to survive, but if that survival include financial cuts in the coming months, how will that impact his business relationship with them?  Brad is asking himself questions about their busienss model- What time of year is their revenue strongest? Is this going to hurt that period of time or the work that we have forecasted for them down the road?  Many scenarios could be played out, but ultimately “Everybody seems to be on a day by day basis.” [8:00] Brad: “Its really hard to manage a business when you don’t know what tomorrow may look like… it’s a challenging time for clarity. It’s a major challenge for me because I have to be reactive. And I don’t like being reactive, I like being proactive. And there’s a certain level of, you just have to trust that humans are going to figure this out.” [9:51] Brad: “I don’t fear for my life, but I fear that I could pass it on to somebody else.”  [10:13] Brad speaks on other financial happenings that will eventually impact every business, regardless of your exposure. The stock market tanking is one example. [11:32] “I feel like if you could take the financial crash of 2008- 2009 and mix that with Y2K, add some bird flu, add some swine flu… you got this perfect storm.” [11:46] Bob reflects on the panic surrounding Y2K in the 90’s and relating the very real fear of specific impacts versus the panic about planes falling out of the air and people getting stuck in elevators. This is similar, with people stockpiling toilet paper and creating a panic around that. People have been arrested for claiming to have a cure for the Coronavirus.  “As you walk that middle ground to try to parse what is real and what is not, how do you live above it all?”  [14:00] Bob asks: “How do I learn from this as a business? How do I survive and not just follow the herd?” Bob shares about Ford vs Ferrari, a movie about Henry Ford and how a large group uniting over common interest led to an intense, fast period of innovation that disrupted an entire industry, all because one man decided it could happen. This is the way that humanity will step up to tackle the vaccination process for Covid-19.  [16:29] Ken speaks on accepting the reality of the situation and not being resistant to your business changing. Radical acceptance of having NO control or clarity on life is a journey and process that builds strength and resistance to the pains of life over time.  [20:39] Ken: “The biggest challenge [with older, traditional clients] is cracking through the mindset that this is just how it works. We can’t change… if you’re in that mindset, you’re probably going to be disrupted by this and you will not get out of it until you change that mindset.”  So acceptance is first, then gaining energy out of it is second. Be energized by the fact that now we have to innovate. A lot of good things come in winter, and this is a winter for a lot of people. There is going to be a shedding of things, and space for new growth.  [24:00] Brad: “I don’t think we give ourselves enough credit as humans, we can figure things out pretty quickly if we need to… like in that movie you were talking about Bob, he probably wasn’t focused on the time constraints, just on focused on the end result.” Brad provides assurance for new agency owners who may be experiencing their first real challenge as a business owner- we will all get through this. We are being sharpened and although that is painful, you will come out wiser for this experience. [30:35] Ken speaks on the importance of project management tools, to get your workforce at home and safe if possible.  Basecamp for Project Management Communication Slack for messaging internally, as well as about specific clients or internal projects Zoom for video conferencing calls Dropbox for large files [34:05] Brad mentions GoToMeeting, his company is very comfortable with that as a video call resource. [35:00] Brad speaks about planning for future projects in your own business. “Just be really thoughtful financially about where you are… every business you’re deciding your next step and what you’re going to invest in… prioritize what’s important in the long run. Also: How do we leverage time? How do we see this as an opportunity to leverage this time in our business?” How do you figure out how to not only survive, but thrive in the midst of this chaos? [36:04] Ken mentions resources on getting the most out of working from home, including a boo written by the creators of Basecamp.  [38:00] Bob asks “What are some things you guys know you are going to throw away during this time, and how are you trying to thrive through this?” [39:45] Ken: “We’re considering how to offer genuine help in genuine ways to businesses that are actually affected… so we’re considering… retail vs online… we may be offering some support for no charge for a little bit.” Perhaps some businesses who didn’t have an online presence prior to this could try during this time to transition over. This won’t be the case for all, but some businesses might view this as an opportunity to diversify.  [42:59] Bob: “I think there’s going to be a huge boom in virtual reality through this… we may be forced at home in our cocoons, but we have eyes to see more than ever before.”  [45:34] Brad reflects on technology and the speed of communication having an impact on this situation: “Is it the actual virus or is it the information that is actually traveling faster? You only realize it when something like this happens, just how deeply entwined we are with everyone these days… supply chains in china are impacting our direct daily lives here.”  [46:41] Brad: “We try not to drive our businesses out of fear, right? But the reality is, is that when stuff like this happens, you realize how much out of control we all kind of are in our businesses that we do have to be reactive.”  [49:50] Bob talks about how there is a fine line between benefiting from a terrible thing and being opportunistic, but also balancing the reality that we are all humans and all interconnected. It’s important to keep clarity on that fact in the distance as we make day by day decisions that have a rippling impact.  [52:56] Ken speaks on balance.  Some personalities almost seem to enjoy adversity, because they know that there is immense growth at their fingertips. But having the self control to step back and keep the human element alive in your process of not only surviving but thriving is so important.  Being forced to look yourself in the mirror during these times of stress often brings revelation and growth. Because every other businessperson on the planet is experiencing the same thing, there is an incredible sense of beauty about this time as well. 

During this episode of Tech Qualified Podcast, we talk with Bob Perkins, Founder and Chairman of AA-ISP (American Association of Inside Sales Professionals). Bob Perkins talks about the creation of AA-ISP, the various options in which members can interact with and benefit from the resources of the organization, and the ways that thought leadership and thought leadership content are useful and evolving.  Episode Highlights: Bob Perkins talks about his work history and past experiences leading up to AA-ISP.      Bob describes the major events, programs, and initiatives that AA-ISP puts on.  What does the leadership team look like at AA-ISP? Bob Perkins talks about the types of in-depth content that they offer.   Bob talks about the benefits of thought leadership content. What are the case studies that AA-ISP’s have executed?  What is thought leadership look like to Bob? How is he seeing traditional businesses provide value from thought leadership?  Where does Bob Perkins see this sales and marketing ‘spamademic’ heading? Bob talks about the power of personalization.  What are some of the trends that Bob is seeing that are working and not working?   Personalized communication content can happen through email, phone, chat, social media, and voice.   What are Bob Perkins’ thoughts on the future of the intersection of sales and marketing? What are some resources that Bob Perkins relies on on a day-to-day basis? Key Points: AA-ISP members can engage with the organization online, at conferences six times a year, or through the 60+ local chapters, over 40 of which are in the United States.  Offer thought leadership value just to provide help and not force sales for your solutions.   Before you talk to someone, make sure you will be making your conversation about them through genuine personalization. Resources: Bob Perkins: Linkedin AA-ISP: aa-isp.org AA-ISP Linkedin: Linkedin Motion: motionagency.io/ultimate

Summary: If you’re an agency leader, you’ve got a “how it all began” story. Whether you set out to be a mega-influencer in your field, or like many, you stumbled into owning a running a company as an afterthought of following your passion. Yet we’re all inundated with the notion that we HAVE to be getting bigger. If you’re not growing you’re dying, right? While that is true, growth doesn’t necessarily mean size growth. There is a point when you have to ask yourself “Should I be scaling this?” In today’s episode we break down this question and dig into the WHY behind what we all do. Contrary to popular belief, scaling is actually NOT a necessity, and size doesn’t coincide with success or profit! In fact, it’s quite the opposite. So we all must ask ourselves, “Should I scale the business, stay where we’re at, or stop this business ownership altogether?”   Top 3 Curtain Pulls in this episode: Agency leadership is innately fraught with hardship and challenges, so having a strong foundational WHY behind everything you do is what will pull you through those hard days. Growing your business to be the BIGGEST isn’t always the way to go- in fact, growth purely for the sake of growth is one of the fastest ways to kill your joy, culture, and bank account. Get mentors! Bring in outside people. Whether that means hiring someone you trust to break down the financial side of things for you or having a group of peers (like this podcast!) that can speak to your pain points and expose them alongside you- it is VITAL to allow yourself to hear and receive feedback in areas that aren’t your expertise.    About The Guys:  Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from from 2000 -2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob:  Bob on LinkedIn twitter.com/BobHutchins instagram.com/bwhutchins Bob on Facebook Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad: Brad on LinkedIn Anthem Republic twitter.com/bradayres instagram.com/therealbradayres facebook.com/Bradayres Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken:  Ken on LinkedIn Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team Growth Rebel TV twitter.com/iamKenOtt instagram.com/iamKenOtt facebook.com/iamKenOtt   Show Notes: [1:47] Ken: Oftentimes, people fall into agency ownership. “If you're a plumber, you’re not going to fall into being a plumber, it’s laid out for you.” You’ll be searching for freedom at first then fall into ownership. Brad: You fall in love with the craft, and either you’re good or you aren’t. And as you try to make a life of it, the process of growth and longevity become the true.  [3:03] Bob introduces the topic: How, Why, and Should you Scale your Business? Cultural default is growing to be the biggest and the best. Knowing your limitations and motivations changes the way you go into ownership.  [3:53] Bob’s mindset was to create a life worth living & that he wanted to live outside of work. So he wanted to create a boutique agency, keep it smaller and be a thought leader in the space & serve clients well. “My motivation was always to be a thought leader in a space, to serve my clients well, and to fund what was most important to me.” [5:00] Ken adds that that level of self-awareness is rare in this space- understanding why you’re doing what you’re doing and making sure that THAT is at the core of what pulls you through the business growth process. This goes against the idea that entrepreneurship and massive influence is the goal for everyone.  [6:16] “The grass is always greener” mentality is pervasive “It’s greener if I can grow it that way.” The REASON for all of this is so important. [7:10] Brad speaks on business ownership as a young person. It includes being able to support your family and the pressure of keeping that stability underneath them.  Brad went into business without a long-term exit strategy. Some people start with that in mind. It’s important to know what you want, even if it’s not an exit strategy per se.  Your company should serve you as well as those who work within it- defining it early on is great and important but also knowing yourself and finding your Why is just as important. [9:23] Bob: Starting a biz when you’re in your early 20’s compared to your early 40’s is very different.  [10:15] Brad: Starting biz means that as you grow there will have to be casualties in other parts of your life. Young people in biz don’t often realize that. The reality of humanity in business is that there will be sacrifices you have to make, choices you have to make.  [10:57] Ken: Speaks on knowing what you’re best at and staying in that wheelhouse. Culturally, we put certain personality types on a pedestal, but truly we need all types and all wheelhouses in a business.  “There is danger in having people in leadership roles who don’t need to be leaders, who aren’t aware of their limitations and strengths.” There are things you’ll HAVE to be good at in order to succeed in business. Some will enjoy that process, others will not. [13:00] Bob speaks on leadership skills, “I believe leadership skills can be developed, 100%.” [13:15] Brad says that leadership has to be INTENTIONAL about learning and growing. The more you can pick it apart and figure out where you can grow, the better. “They say the best leaders are spending 25% of their time learning and growing themselves.” [14:15] Ken: There is danger in doing something because you believe it’s what you should be doing- it’s a trend. Headcount is a status symbol in agencies these days- falling into the pressure of increasing headcount just to increase it Often what culture idolizes is wrong, and that reflects in business [17:15] Brad speaks on how growing has taken more money, growth means more responsibilities and maintenance internally. Office culture is challenging to maintain as the company grows.  When asking how your business is, everyone wants to talk about growth as a status symbol [18:15] Brad: “Maybe the culture should be that it’s good to stay steady, produce great products, create great profit, and also have your company serve you and your employees well.”  [18:20] Bob: Positive Growth is a metric today for ecommerce, but other things are “What’s your motivation for having the business and what are you gonna do with it? This will trickle down in culture, and it can be destructive if you’re not careful.” [19:56] Ken: “Those metrics are important. But they shouldn’t be how you measure your own success.” [21:00] Brad speaks on capitalizing on growth- “Looking at why you want to grow reveals a fear; that a client may leave, even for reasons that have nothing to do with you, and you always want to make sure you can support your staff… so that you don’t lose resources… that are part of your awesome culture. Businesses run on people, and they take a long time to grow and build into your business. I need to always have a ‘new business’ mentality.” [22:48] Ken iterates: “Your business needs to be healthy, regardless of size, and it needs to innovate. These are requirements, and then you have the choice of goals and THEN the questions of should you be scaling really comes into play. You can not scale and still be healthy and innovating.” You want to tailor your growth plan to your own agency, and understand that your portfolio of clients is as even as possible, so that you're never relying totally on one client to support you. [25:30] Bob asks if it’s a value to bring in someone that can help you understand scaling. There is great value in having conversations with third party people and outsiders to think through the health of your culture and your business.  [28:13] Ken speaks on large shifts at Metacake: “I hired a friend who came in and started asking questions… that I’d never thought of before. Are you tracking time? How do you categorize your expenses?”  It created awareness around what is accepted as status quo in the agency world but is very dysfunctional in the rest of the world. [30:00] It’s important to bring in third-party perspectives because sometimes you need that outside opinion to be further away from the heart of the business. It’s important because when you have someone giving you advice that you know you can trust, you begin to have the confidence to be YOU. [31:00] Ken: “Someone once told me that comparison is the enemy of joy. And that’s so true in life and in business… If you’re leading a business, you might see others and they look so cool from the outside… but turns out they all struggle with the same things. They’re NOT cool, and they’ve got the same problems, maybe even bigger problems. So don’t just do something because you see it and you think you should. For me, outside advice has given me the confidence to be who we were made to be and do it really well.” [32:00] Bob: “Finding your own individuality, and your own agency collectively who you are as a team is so important because you can try to imitate and learn best practices, but… Ken you’re always saying you can be the cheapest, the only, or the best. You need to choose which one you want to be because those are the only ways you’re going to scale and grow and be successful as a business.” [33:45] Brad: Part of the growth that agency owners go through requires asking for extra help and guidance. It’s important in making the correct decisions, learning to let your guard down at first and jump over that fear of admitting that you don’t know everything. [35:42] Bob: How do you know if you’re really ready to start a business?  [36:30] Ken: “I think being self-aware and confident enough to say ‘Hey here’s what I’m best at. Maybe I should be scaling this. Maybe we should be staying right where we’re at, or maybe this is not for me.” [37:03] Brad asks Ken: “Would you do it over again, knowing what you know now, would this be the right type of business?” [37:15] Ken responds: “I have this abstract feeling that I should be maximizing talents… whatever talents I’m given, I should be doing the most with that… and that’s what drives me. I’m excited to get up and chase that.” [40:20] Bob speaks on the manifestation movement in the last 10-15 years. “Visualizing success, for athletes… works very well. If that was the key to their success, that would be one thing… People think you just get clients and hire smart people, make a ton of money and get on Forbes… dreaming and visualizing is healthy for that athlete but he’s also conditioning all day every day… that work they’re putting in is more than just visualizing. None of them would ever say it was easy.” [42:45] Ken: “I think business ownership or really doing anything at an excellent level, just being a great husband, wife, whatever, takes intentional conditioning over time… and the truth is, it’s hard work.”  [43:20] Brad talks about how the decision to start a business impacts others as well. Those that are doing life with you have to be bought in and supportive if you want to maintain healthy relationships with your family.  Are those people supporting you knowing there WILL be hard times?  You’ll bring some of that stress home, how will that impact them?  [45:00] Ken: All of this ties back into the question of why you’re doing it. “If you don’t like WHY you’re doing it, then all that stuff sounds insane.” [46:00] Ken speaks on the health of your internal team- your income must serve not only you but your team. If your business can’t serve you and your team, if it can’t be self-serving in a way, then what’s the point of trying to effectively serve others? [48:00] Bob brings the conversation back around to the love of business and the joy in ownership. “I am unemployable from the sense of- I can’t go to a corporate setting, sit in a desk, push paper all day long, check in at eight, and check out at 5… I would get fired in the first week. I have to be doing something creative, I have to be with people, I have to be having some sort of strategy and I have to be challenged every day. It’s a joy, and there are a lot of positive things to think about.” [49:00] Ken: “It’s important to be aware that you’re not doing something because someone else says you should do it.” [49:20] Brad: “I feel like I own a little bit more of my future, I determine if it sinks or floats… and so even though sometimes I don’t do well with the stress, I still love that flexibility  to determine where i feel I need to go and what I want to do.” “I think that’s what makes me do what I do so well, that I have such a joy to work and feel an ownership to my clients’ products and services… I kind of live vicariously in my own business to other businesses that we serve.” [51:07] Bob: “Those things are, if we’re honest, that creativity of creating something out of nothing and… to be a part of that, to be a catalyst for that, is a huge source of joy and satisfaction.”

Summary: Bob Hutchins, Brad Ayres, and Ken Ott are talking about how to innovate, grow and serve fast-growing clients in an agency world that is both ever-changing and also static. Hyper-growth is idealized, but the truth is scale isn’t always good. You need healthy scale. How do you help businesses see the forest through the trees? How do you inspire some to think bigger? How do you get clients who are moving too fast to slow down and pay attention to what will create healthy growth? There is a delicate balance to establishing a strong, influential role with a client, regardless of the type of business they are in.    Resources Mentioned:  Blitzscaling: The Lightning-Fast Path to Building Massively Valuable Companies https://www.anthemrepublic.com/- Brad’s Ad Agency https://metacake.com/- Ken’s Ecommerce Agency Metacake’s Ecommerce Growth YouTube Channel   Top 3 Curtain Pulls in this episode: Serving fast-moving, viral clients means providing advice and guidance for them, creating an alignment with their leadership and encouraging healthy scale and growth from an “advisor” role. This takes slowing down and creating systems and processes, which takes experience. When serving older, larger clients it is important to focus on innovating and making sure they understand that innovation is a requirement for growth.  Growth in your agency means those same things: innovation, systems, and processes.   About The Guys:  Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from from 2000 -2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob:  Bob on LinkedIn twitter.com/BobHutchins instagram.com/bwhutchins Bob on Facebook Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad: Brad on LinkedIn Anthem Republic twitter.com/bradayres instagram.com/therealbradayres facebook.com/Bradayres Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken:  Ken on LinkedIn Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team Growth Rebel TV twitter.com/iamKenOtt instagram.com/iamKenOtt facebook.com/iamKenOtt   Show Notes:  [1:26] Bob asks: "There's this new business model of failing fast and scaling quick and getting stuff out. It seems like the fastest wins. What does that mean for agencies who try to lead that charge?" [1:56] Brad: “we do have clients that are over a hundred years old… they built such a strong legacy, but they can’t move as fast as they need to.” Technology makes it hard for larger, older companies to keep up and pivot appropriately. [2:49] “So they’re looking at acquiring companies who could scale faster.” [3:17] “We can talk more about how, as an agency, how you can prepare your infrastructure, and your processes to move that quickly and to understand that things pivot. And sometimes that’s really hard.” [3:39] Bob asks Ken: How have quick pivots and “failing fast” impacted Metacake and their clients? [4:05] Ken: “We preach innovation to our clients because ultimately, that is something that is never urgent and always important.... Innovation needs to happen whether you’re a big company or a small company.” “As an agency, you have to innovate and innovate quickly, and maybe even in the agency world more so than some of your clients because you’re in a world that is typically stagnant. There’s not a lot of innovation happening in that world.” [5:34] Ken: “Just because other people are doing it [innovating] doesn’t mean you should be doing it NOW, but you should be doing it, you just have to figure out when.” [6:46] “Just like people have personalities, agencies and businesses have personalities. Knowing what your strength is is important.” “Are you good at coming behind a founder of a company that has a really giant vision and you’re really good at helping them get there?” [7:30] Brad: “We have companies that we lead, and companies that we serve. The fear with companies that we serve is that we become a commodity… if we’re not leading and innovating they won’t work with us… and sometimes they’re just not a good fit. [8:45] “Even those companies that don’t give you a seat at the table… maybe you can still add table value by indirectly giving them suggestions and helping them to ‘see the beach’.” [9:05] Ken: “Even in a role of service… the way you avoid becoming a commodity is by being a really great advisor to them… We work with viral entrepreneurs as well as global brands. With those global brands they need to be led with innovation, with those viral entrepreneurs we want to advise wisely.” [10:13] Brad speaks on having a strong understanding of your client and being aligned with them and an extension of their leadership. [12:10] “How as an agency do you follow the culture of a client when they are averse to pivoting, change?” [12:45] Ken “Even an industry that your agency doesn't have experience in, the reason that you’re brought on it because you do have a speciality in some other area… if you don’t have that, maybe you shouldn’t be there… but you should be able to use your specialty to push that innovation.” [13:27] Bob: “I think a good agency… gets over those humps is with data.” This day and age allows instant results and data that you can lead with. And if a decision maker chooses to not respect the data, there’s not much else you can do.  [14:30] Ken: “that implies that you’re investing in acquiring data… could mean getting experience outside of client work. Being in eCommerce, we have several product companies that we run the stores of and so we can learn from them.” If you’re only always working in your speciality for someone else and don’t do things that let you test, then you don’t have that data to present that gives you an edge. [15:56] Brad: “You’ve got to be open to agile testing…. You've got to be able to think outside of the box and  [28:00] Brad: “... one of our clients… only works his business plan 3 months out. That’s it. And what he told me is that he’s going to pivot if he has to… either you’re with him and you are running right beside that pivot, or you’re going to get left behind.” [29:05] “In this case, this individual knows exactly where his business is going… and how does an agency support somebody like him that is running that fast?” [30:15] Brad: “Some clients want to make money TODAY, and some… care about their market share and they want to be leaders in their market… they’ll have a technology that noone else has.” [30:40] Bob: “How do you get your staff to see and to develop that mindset [of quick pivots and change] when they might be people who are creatives or they’re perfectionsists… that you need to function well.” [31:45] Ken: “In this type of example where companies are moving fast and you as a founder may not even realize what their full vision is.” In this case, when this is happening and they start failing fast, that can burn your team out. It de-motivates them.  So your job as the leader is to become the thermostat- regardless of how hot it gets on the outside, inside the temperature is all the same. [34:50] Brad: “For us, #1, I think constantly talking about business practices with your team...allows them to go Okay there’s multiple ways to get a business off the ground.” And #2, “If something does pivot where three months of your employees work goes out the door, it’s still being aware that for us, that’s still a win. Maybe not for the client, but for us, it’s a win.  “Showing them that our client now has made a jump and that somehow we were a part of that is always beneficial because that that work isn’t for nothing. That’s companies being successful.” [36:00] So even if we do pivot, it’s all about communicating… that our goal is not just to serve a customer, it’s to see that customer’s objective met and their business objective met… trying to bring value to that leadership and have a seat at that table.” [37:00] Bob asks: What do you guys feel like the value is for Agencies moving forward in the near future, in the next five years, 10 years? Because I think what we’re talking about is everybody's moving at the speed of light. [37:43] Ken: “I think it’s experience and driving results… if you look at the trajectory, you’ve got agencies that were hired in to do everything and they were responsible for figuring out how to do this thing. Everything from strategy to implementation.” Bringing those things in-house is becoming a better and better option for companies. “I think that if your strategy is purely implementation then your value is going to be challenged… the biggest benefit to having an outside agency is experience that you don’t have as a company.” “The thing that no one else can rip off is your experience… so if that is valuable to somebody, that is the biggest barrier to entry.” [41:00] Brad: “For us, learning to balance the bent towards perfectionism is a challenge… we want really high-end success and I think that’s why we’ve kept a lot of clients.”  But balancing the slow down that perfectionism brings with the speed necessary for quick pivots is the biggest challenge we try to manage. [42:50] Bob reflects: “In the past, it was a liability (putting out a less-than-perfect product)... so now if you release something that is a little bit imperfect just to get it out there, you have more room to improve and shift the focus later on.” The guys talk about the new Tesla truck and Elon Musk’s presentation. The idea of him testing the glass and it breaking during the presentation actually shows that he is human and that his ideas aren’t perfect. Everyone is aware of this, but he gets a pass because that is the standard he has set for himself. Quick but imperfect delivery. Companies like Apple do not get a pass like this because they have already set the standards so high for themselves. They have a glitch during a presentation and suddenly it’s “Apple’s going downhill, they’re gonna fail.” They don’t get a pass for imperfect products at this point.  So the lesson here is if you’re gonna fail, fail fast, and be transparent about it.  [45:37] Brad: “What Elon Musk has done is he’s created a culture, not only with his company, but the brand and his loyalists that say ‘I’m going to be first, but you’re going to have to give a little time. Forgive me, cause we’re not going to hit it. You’re not going to hit a home run every time, but I’m going to get you on third base and then we’ll sneak in into homebase and we’ll get it fixed.”  [54:03] Ken: “Don’t blitz scale or innovate or feel like you have to be a  high risk taker just for the sake of doing it because these other companies do it. What you really need to figure out is what is the why behind where they need to go and where you need to go.” [55:50] Brad “Sometimes educating your client on the lifetimes values of your customers so that we’re no here just to make a dollar today, but we’re actually looking at the future of your lifetime value and going okay we’ll spend money right now to acquire a customer because we know that the lifetime value is X, and you’re going to make that up in a year from now.” [57:40] Brad: “The customer needs to know that you’re running with them and you’re right next to or right beside them. Otherwise you don't’ have a seat at their table. And if you can’t get a seat at their table, it’s really hard to convince your clients to do anything.”

A Grace Disguised (Part 1) - Jerry SittserA Grace Disguised (Part 2) - Jerry SittserA Grace Disguised (Part 3) - Jerry SittserFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Forgiveness Guest:                         Jerry SittserFrom the series:          A Grace Disguised  (Day 3 of 3) Bob:   Proverbs 25:11 says, “A Word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in a setting of silver.” When someone has experienced loss we need to be careful that our words are fitly spoken.  Here's Jerry Sittser… Jerry:  Sometimes words can actually exacerbate the problem rather than help the problem.  I mean, Job's three friends did their best work when they just shut their mouths for a week and sat with Job on that heap of ashes.  The cue is, when they're ready to talk, then you're ready to listen. When they really feel like they are ready to receive a word, then you give it, but never before that.  And what you don't want to do is use words to try to somehow push the loss and its significance away. Bob:  This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, July 8th.  Our host is the President of FamilyLife Dennis Rainey and I'm Bob Lepine.   We'll here today how God shows up in the midst of loss.  And about how we can show up, too.   And welcome to FamilyLife Today and thanks for joining us.  Just as I was walking in here, I got an email from our mutual friend, Dr. Michael Easley, who is the pastor at Fellowship Bible Church in Franklin, TN, and Michael sent me a prayer that he had written to send to a couple who had experienced the loss of a child a year ago today.  The child had lived two months and unexpectedly died.  And Michael wrote this prayer for them.   He said, I pray for you today that your memories will be sweet, that your hearts will be calmed, that you will find a non-anxious presence.  That you will choose to trust and see good when there is nothing for sure, that you will grieve, but not as those who have no hope, that you will find comfort and mercy in places others may never know.   That your “why” questions will be replaced with a confidence in knowing that, He knows, and that's enough.  We love you and ask Him to pour mercy, kindness and hope into your hearts.  He does indeed know you and love you no matter what your experience may try to tell you. Dennis:  Bob, you know as I listen to those words, I think, how many people listening to this broadcast right now have experienced loss, some kind of major loss in their lives, in the past 5 to 10 years.   As I said earlier, if you live long enough, you will experience loss.  In fact, life is really made up of a lot of losses as we lose our childhood, and move into adulthood.  Some of those losses look good at the time but some of the losses aren't easily figured out, in fact, some are never figured out on this side of heaven.  We've had a guest with us, Dr. Jerry Sittser who has helped us better understand the process of grieving through his book, A Grace Disguised. Welcome back. Jerry:  Thank you, it's good to be here. Dennis:  I mentioned earlier, that Barbara had recommended this book to me after our daughter, Rebecca and her husband Jake, experienced the loss of their daughter after seven days of life.  And Barbara joins us on the broadcast as well.   Sweetie, welcome. Barbara:  Thank you, glad to be here. Dennis:  In fact, I hadn't asked you this question, sweetheart.  As you read this book, what was it about Jerry's book that most ministered to you, and why have you recommended it to so many people? Barbara:  Well, I wish I had my copy in front of me, I tried to find it this morning, and I can't find where I set that thing.  But at any rate it's all underlined and marked, and page corners turned back.   And one of the things I remember most vividly is early in the first few chapters, Jerry, you talk about how loss is loss and that it doesn't do any good to compare losses, and to say that this loss is worse than that loss.  Because loss brings grief and it brings pain and that grief and that pain is real and it needs to be experienced.  It is what it is.  To try to explain it or measure it and say it's not really that bad or it's worse than this, doesn't really make any difference in the long run.  I think we are so prone to wanting to measure and figure these things out.   The other piece I remember real vividly is a later chapter in the book, it talks about how our identity is changed by grief and loss and how so much of who we are is wrapped up in our identity with that thing or that person or that ability we have lost.  Whether it's a divorce or a death, or whether it's losing the ability through physical illness and how that personal identity is transformed through the process of loss and grief.  I thought that was really helpful and profound. Jerry:  I call that the amputation of the familiar self. Barbara:  That's what it was, yes. Jerry:  It's extraordinarily hard, because we are really defined by our location, our relationships, our work, these things provide sources of identity and when one of those is lopped off, it requires a pretty long and significant period of adjustment to figure out who you are in the wake of the loss of that thing, when that thing defined you to some degree.   We have these phantom pains, you know.  Phantom pains are the leg telling you it's still there when you look down and it's not there anymore.  That's what an amputation does and we will go through a long period of time when we feel those phantom pains of still feeling like we are this person, we belong to this person, we do this particular line of work and this kind of thing, even though we don't anymore. Bob:  How long was it for you in the weeks that followed the car accident where your wife and your daughter and your mother all were killed?  For how many months did you have this kind of reflexive phantom impulse to say, oh, I ought to call her and share this with her and then realize she's not there? Jerry:  Well, for a long time.  Reflexive is the right word, too.   It is like a reflex, where it's programmed in you, so automatic.  When after twenty years, when you call your spouse once or twice  a day just to check in, “Hi, honey, how's it going and what are you doing, what are the kids doing, or how's work going,” that sort of thing.  You can't help but have your mind go there; just automatically, it happens a long time.  I would say after those months even though it wasn't as reflexive as it once was, it still was an impulse in me.   And to tell you the truth, Bob, it still is, after 18 years.  Now, I don't say that in despairing or bitter kind of way.  I still think about those people every day.  There's not a day that goes by, I don't.  And I don't think that's a bad thing.  I don't like words like recovery; I think that gives us a kind of vain expectation as if we can get back to something we had before.   Dennis:  Some months before our granddaughter, Molly, died, I received an email from the gentleman who heads up FamilyLife in New Zealand.  His name is Andy Bray, he and his wife Nikki have given leadership to FamilyLife there for more than a dozen years.  Their daughter who was 15 or 16 years of age, at the time, was killed in a tragic flood in New Zealand along with 5 or 6 other young people who were all first class Christian leaders.   It was a reward trip for these young people, and I received that email some months before Molly's death.  And I have to tell you that in those seven days of Molly's life, I kept thinking, that has to be harder, a harder thing to bear, to have had a relationship with your daughter for 16 years and now, to say goodbye.   I mean it's one thing for my daughter and son-in-law to have a relationship for seven days and say goodbye, and the more I tried to work this equation out in my mind, I came to the conclusion that it was futility.  It was a waste of time.  Am I wrong? Jerry:  No, you are right.  Comparing loss is vain.  It's like comparing headaches; I mean people will describe their headaches in lots of different ways.  Well, how are you going to determine which one is worse?  I mean it's silly in the first place.   I put it this way; all losses are bad, just bad in different ways.  How can you compare say the loss of a spouse to death and the loss of a spouse to divorce?  How can you compare the loss of a child to death or say the loss of a child to waywardness, they are both bad.  And they stand on their own and we need to treat them as unique and sacred in and of themselves.   I tell you that was one of the reasons why I hesitated to write this book.  My story is kind of sensational in a way, I mean this big event and three people are killed in this drunken driving accident. Everybody sort of gasps and I became almost an instant celebrity in Spokane overnight and I didn't like that.  And the reason why I didn't like that was because I was so profoundly aware of other kinds of losses that were as severe  as mine, just different, and maybe not visible and maybe not as prone to receive sympathy from other people.  Let me give you an example, some guy came up to me a couple of years after the accident and said I've resented you for two years.  And I said, “why, I hardly know you”, and he said, “your tragedy turned you into a hero, my tragedy has only brought more pain.  My wife left me for another woman,” he said, “and I've had to deal with catastrophic consequences, but I'm nobody's hero.”   That was very sobering for me to hear, it wasn't very nice for him to say, but it was very sobering for me to hear, recognizing that there are lots of losses that do not receive very much public attention.   If they do, it's not with sympathy.  I hesitated to write the book and when I decided to write it, I inserted Chapter Two:  Whose Loss is Worse, just to protect myself from being made some kind of false celebrity because of my loss.  There are lots of ways to suffer, lots of ways to experience pain, and mine is only one.  And there are lots of things I don't know, I don't know what it means to experience, let's say the long term effects of terminal illness or injuries from which a person cannot recover.   Bob:  You know, it was interesting, Barbara, to hear you reflect back on what had an impact on you as you read Jerry's book.  I asked Maryann last night, the same question.  I said what was most impactful as you read the book, and she said probably the chapter on forgiveness.   I thought it's interesting, I don't know that we make a connection between grief and loss and forgiveness, but you see those as being intimately tied together, don't you? Jerry:  I do, and I titled that chapter:  Forgive and Remember, instead of forgive and forget.  I don't think it's possible and I don't think it's healthy to forget anything.  But I think forgiveness can change the way we remember things.   Especially when we've had pain inflicted to us, spouses betrayed us, somebody's done some violent act, say raped us or something like that, or someone has embezzled money and that destroyed our business.  There are lots of ways we suffer loss when the results are catastrophic and somebody willed to do harm to us, directly or indirectly. Bob:  In your case, it was a drunk driver who swerved across the road, right? Jerry:  And smashed into us.  Now he didn't intend to do that, his harm was not malicious in the sense that he was out to kill three members of my family.  But his irresponsible decisions did lead to that and required me to forgive. Bob:  What did you have to go through to get to forgiveness? Jerry:  I think there were two phases to it; the more immediate and obvious one was the trial when the drunken driver was acquitted on a technicality and he walked away.  That only added kind of a bitter cast to an already difficult journey in forgiving somebody who had had such a significant impact on my life.  I learned in the process that forgiveness is not a singular act, it's a process you go through.  And I think the most significant decision we make, is to say, we want to forgive.  Not that we forgive at the time, but we want to go through the process where forgiveness begins to take place.  And we get to the point where we can wish the person well and pray for them. Bob:  You have heard some amazing, well; you've gotten some amazing feedback to the book.  Letters, you were saying earlier, not a week goes by that you don't hear from someone who God has used your story and your book profoundly in their lives.   Jerry:  Yes, but it's a strange thing, there's a kind of an otherness to this book.  I actually brought it with me.  I've reread it once since I wrote it and that was when the new edition came out about five years ago, about the only time I ever cracked it.   I skimmed it a little bit yesterday and it was a strange experience, because it's almost as if I didn't write it, it has a quality of otherness to it.   As if it's not quite mine, I think the closest it would come would be the way that parents feel about their children.  Is that those children are so much a part of you but when you look at them and get to know them you realize they're so other than you, too.  And that's how I feel about this book.  Dennis:  You did tell a story before we came in the studio of a letter you have received from a woman who had a brother who was murdered.   Jerry:  And this was after 28 years.  And through those 28 years of suffering she described it as being very harsh, very hard.  She feels like she lost her mother permanently in the wake of her brother's murder and this sort of thing.   She decided that she needed to forgive the murderer of her brother, so she did research, found out where he was in the prison system and asked if she could have permission to visit him.  He sort of coldly gave her permission, and so she went to see him and God gave her two words, on the ride to see him, and these are very powerful to me. The first is, you're never beyond the reach of the grace of God, and the second is you can always become the man God wants you to be, even if you're in prison.  And she met this man, forgave him, he broke down and sobbed, came to know the Lord and their relationship continues to this day.   That's a powerful example of forgiveness, but it's a little troubling to me too, because it doesn't always happen quite that easily.  Sometimes it is a process.  It's a journey and you have to go through phases of forgiveness to get to the point where you can really wish the person well and trust them to the good hand of God and pray for them Dennis:  Your story and just what you said reminds me of Romans 12: 18, and these are powerful in my life because there's a person I've had to forgive, more than one obviously over my lifetime, but one where this is very real to me.  “If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.  Beloved never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God for it is written, vengeance is mine, I will repay says the Lord.”   It's interesting, Jerry, as I have very imperfectly attempted to be obedient to that passage and have prayed for not only to be able to forgive and to be at peace.  As I thought about the wrath of God I've prayed for that person to be delivered from the wrath of God, because I know what that means.  It potentially could mean an eternity separated from God.   Jerry:  Oh, what a terrible burden a person has to bear for wrongdoing.   I would always choose to be the victim of wrongdoing, than to be the perpetrator of wrongdoing.   Early on that came to me, by the way, is I thought about what it would mean for me to change positions.  And I didn't want that at all.  You know, ironically, we like to claim justice.  We really want, we think we want to live in a fair world, but I'm not sure we want the world to be fair.  On the one hand maybe some bad things wouldn't happen to us that have happened to us over the years.   But grace isn't fair either and I'd rather live in a world that is unfair, knowing that I am going to take some hits along the way, as I have, and will continue to experience if I know that grace is available to me too, because  the unfairest thing in the world is grace.   I think about our Lord who had to wear a crown of thorns, the only one in all of human history who was not deserving of that crown of thorns, so that we could wear a crown of honor.  Dennis:  Hmm, what a picture Jerry:  There is no fairness in that at all. Dennis:  And the reality of that is that it all occurred through suffering.  Jerry:  It all occurred through suffering.  In fact, that is the answer to the problem of evil.  This is where the Christian answer to evil is so paradoxical and so glorious and beautiful.   The Bible's answer to suffering, is suffering, the suffering of God in human flesh.  God chooses out of his pure love for fallen humanity, to actually enter into the world.  And instead of entering it with a glorious birth, announced and heralded by sounding trumpets, he was born into a pathetic stable.  He grows up in obscurity.  He is a carpenter's son, he never gets a first rate education.  He didn't really get an education at all, except in the synagogue. He has a three year ministry, and then he suffers death on a cross.  We are talking about God doing this.  This is the Bible's answer to suffering, God's suffering and then the triumph in the resurrection. Dennis:  The apostle Peter says this about that suffering of Christ, “Beloved do not be surprised at the fiery trial which comes upon you  to test you as though something strange were happening, but rejoice, in so far as you share in Christ's sufferings, that you may be able to rejoice and be glad when His glory is revealed.” Jerry:  And Paul writes, “More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope.”  This is one of the strange things that's occurred in our own experience, is a rejoicing in the experience. Not because we're glad it happened, we'll never be that, bad is always bad, but because of what's come as a result. Bob:  You are talking about what is come in your own life, your own experience of God's grace in the midst of all of this.  But also, what has come through you in the book that you have written, A Grace Disguised:  How the Soul Grows through Loss.  God has used powerfully in the lives of folks sitting around this table and tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of folks who have read the book.  And God's used it in a great way to minister to them in their own sense of grief and loss.  Jerry:  But I will say, that no book, however, well read or however life-changing will ever justify, explain or excuse the pain that was visited upon us.  These are separate things altogether.  I don't like it when people sort of explain something because of the good outcome.  Joseph really gave us the right formula here, you meant it for evil, God worked it out for good, but the evil was still evil. Bob:  Yes, that's right and we don't want to do anything to try to minimize the reality of that, but in the comfort you've received from God you have been able to be faithful to do what 2 Corinthians 1 says, to comfort others with the comfort you've received.  And you do that through your book and we want to encourage listeners who are in the midst of a season of suffering or a season of loss to get a copy of the book, A Grace Disguised: How a Soul Grows Through Loss.  You can find out more about it online at FamilyLifeToday.com.   While you are on our web site you will also see information about Barbara Rainey's new book written with your daughter Rebecca Mutz.  It tells the story of the life, the short life, of your granddaughter Molly, who was born a year ago at this time and lived for seven days.   The book is called A Symphony in the Dark:  Hearing God's Voice in Seasons of Grief, and we do have copies of that book in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center as well.  You can get more information about it online at FamilyLifeToday.com or call toll free, 1-800 FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329.  Someone on our team will let you know how you can get either or both of these books sent to you.   We also want to be quick today to say thank you so much to those of you who help underwrite the syndication and production costs of this program, to make it possible for the program to be heard on this station and on our network of stations all across the country.  Our listeners and especially those of you who can help support this program financially, you make it possible for this program to continue and we appreciate you so much.   This month if you are able to make a donation of any amount to help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today, we'd like to say thank you by sending you a CD that features a conversation  we had not long ago with Nancy Leigh DeMoss, the author and the speaker on the daily radio program Revive our Hearts.   Nancy has written a book called Choosing Forgiveness and we wanted to explore what the Bible teaches about the subject of forgiveness with her.  That conversation is available as our way of saying thank you this month when you do make a donation to support the ministry of FamilyLife Today.   If your donation is online, you'll see a key code box on the donation form as you fill it out online.  Type the word “forgive” in the box and we'll send you the CD, or if you call 1-800-FLTODAY you can make your donation by phone and just mention that you would like the CD and we are happy to send it to you.  And again we appreciate you so much for partnering with us, here at the ministry of FamilyLife Today.   Tomorrow we are going to talk with a young woman who lives in NYC, about a different kind of loss than we have talked about already this week.   We are going to talk about being young and single, and wishing you were married, and dealing with the sense of loss that comes with that.  Carolyn Leutwiler is going to join us tomorrow, hope you can be back with us as well.   I want to thank our engineer today Keith Lynch and our entire broadcast production team on behalf of our host Dennis Rainey I'm Bob Lepine.  We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock Arkansas Help for today.  Hope for tomorrow. © 2009 FamilyLife   We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com     

Christian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 1) - Bishop Aaron BlakeChristian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 2) - Diana PrykhodkoChristian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 3) - Bishop W.C. MartinFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. The Miracle from Possum Trot Guest:                         W. C. MartinFrom the series:       The Miracle from Possum Trot (Day 1 of 1)  Bob: When the bishop at Bennett Chapel Baptist Church in Possum Trot, Texas, W.C. Martin and his wife Donna, decided they were going to adopt some children from the foster care system, they had no idea what was about to happen in their little town. W.C.: We don't have any Ph.D. folks at our church that can map out this and show you how to do that. We don't have that. But what we do have was just pure love that we can give a child. We just do the Word—like you just said, being a doer of the Word. This ain't about having a meeting to see if we want to do this. We just did the Word and gave God the GLORY for doing it! [Applause] Bob: This is a special edition of FamilyLife Today for Friday, November 25th. This program was recorded in front of a live studio audience. You'll hear our conversation today with W.C. Martin, and hear how revival almost broke out in the middle of the interview. Stay with us.  1:00 [Recorded Message] And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. Once again, we have got a wonderful live studio audience with us. We are here at the Christian Alliance for Orphans Summit IX! [Applause] Yes! [Laughter] And as I was thinking about what we're going to talk about today, I was thinking about one of your favorite quotes from Billy Graham. Do you know the quote I'm talking about? Dennis: I do. He said: “Courage is contagious. When one man takes a stand, the spines of others are stiffened.” We're going to hear a story today about a man and his wife who took a courageous stand on behalf of the orphan, and took God at His Word. I was reminded of this—a lot of Christians live their entire Christian faith out and never step out and never take this verse and the promise of what it means.  2:00 Listen to this—Ephesians, Chapter 3, verse 20: “Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly than all we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations forever and ever. Amen.” I think one of the great challenges for us, in this day, is looking around at a culture that has a target-rich environment for us to be salt and light in this world but, especially, as we address the needs of orphans. Taking on the issue of foster care and adoption, we need to be men and women, young men and women, boys and girls of faith, who take God at His Word and expect great things from Him. Bob: We're going to meet somebody today who caused the spines of others to stiffen by the courageous step he took. It's a story that has been told on Oprah, and the Today Show, and just about everywhere— 3:00 —not just here in the United States—but internationally. We want you to join us and welcome to the stage Bishop W.C. Martin. Would you welcome him? [Applause] Dennis: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, Bishop. You and your wife Donna have been married for 35 years.  W.C.: Yes. Dennis: You have six children, four of whom are adopted. Apart from that being the claim to your fame—I know that's number one, there, and your love for Christ—you are the bishop of Bennett Chapel in Possum Trot, Texas. W.C.: On the other side of Coonville. Bob: Known as what?—South Coonville? W.C.: On the other side of Coonville. [Laughter] Dennis: This goes back to 1996. Take us back to how this all started in Possum Trot. W.C.: Well, my wife's mother passed.  4:00 She had one of those community-type mothers—everybody coming to her house, and eat, and play, and everything. She had 18 brothers and sisters of them. Bob: Eighteen. W.C.: Yes, 18. On the passing of her mother, she said one morning, “Lord, if You can't take this burden from the loss of my mother, just let me die.” The Lord just spoke and said, “Give back.” God told us to adopt—foster and adopt. The whole thing started right there. We went to class. We had to take 12 weeks of Pride classes in Texas. Dennis: Let me just stop you for a second, though. This starts a lot of times—adoption—with our wives speaking into our hearts. W.C.: Yes. Dennis: A lot of us, as men, kind of get dragged into this. You had some fears.  W.C.: I sure did.  Dennis: You had some concerns. W.C.: I sure did; because she had kind of told me some other things and didn't follow through with it; you know? Bob: Ahhh. [Laughter] 5:00 W.C.: I said, “Here goes another one of them.” [Laughter] Dennis: “Can this marriage be saved?” I understand! [Laughter] W.C.: I said, “Here goes another one of them hair-brained ideas you're coming up with!” [Laughter] Dennis: I just want to remind you this is live radio, and Donna will be listening. W.C.: Oh! [Laughter] Bob: I just want to find out from the audience: “How many of you had husbands who said, ‘Here goes another one of her hair-brained ideas'?” Raise your hand. There are a lot of hands up here; yes!  W.C.: Well, good thing I'm not the only little boy on the block! [Laughter] Dennis: So what eventually won you over? W.C.: Well, I felt the calling of God. I felt, within myself, that this was what God wanted us to do—not even knowing what the outcome was going to be / not even knowing anything about this because I always thought that people—I didn't even know that there was such a thing as adoption, because I thought people always took care of their children. That's all I ever knew. I didn't think anything else, you know; because in places like Possum Trot, there was always a Grandmamma Yelma, or Aunt Pookanell, or somebody, when Mama died, you came in. [Laughter] 6:00 That's what I always thought; you know? I never knew anything different. So, that started it. What happened was—when we adopted our first little boy / little girl, named Mercedes, who had been in nine homes for one year. They didn't want us to have those children, because they figured that we were new in the business and new in the game—we could not deal with Mercedes and Tyler because they had such a bad record. But, then again, we showed them that we had Somebody on our side that they didn't know anything about. [Laughter and cheering] Don't start me preaching up here now; I don't want to do that! [Laughter] Dennis: We know it's going to happen! [Laughter] Mercedes was five and her brother was— W.C.: Three. Dennis: —three. Where had they been? Why were they in the foster care system? W.C.: Because their mother had gotten killed in Dallas, Texas, in a bad drug deal.  7:00 As a result of it, Mercedes had to end up being the mother and the father for Tyler. She ended up just developing this thing about stealing and lying. She could con a con artist herself; you know?—until— Dennis: Yes. W.C.: —until she met me. [Laughter] Dennis: Yes. This is what I want our audience to know—not that he can take over a liar—[Laughter]—but I want the audience to know that for all these drug busts we see on TV / the crime—there are kids involved. W.C.: There surely are. Dennis: They're going someplace. W.C.: Yes. Dennis: I know a family that, since they've been here at this event, in the past 48 hours, got a phone call at 1:15 a.m. to take care of five kids who had just been delivered to the sheriff's office, or the police station, and were sleeping on the floor because they had nowhere to go—all as a result of crime. W.C.: Yes. 8:00 Dennis: So we kind of make it out there; but when you go near the foster care system, you're going to find it's up-close and personal. Bob: I just want to know: “When you brought Mercedes and her little brother into your house, was it hard for a while?” W.C.: I think it was harder on them because Mercedes was used to just going from place to place. Nine homes in one year is a lot of places. Bob: Oh, yes. W.C.: She didn't trust nobody. That was the big problem Mercedes had—she trusted nobody—because she didn't know what trust was all about. She didn't know how to trust / she didn't know the first thing about trust. What we had to do was to win Mercedes and Tyler over. I figured that if we got Mercedes, Tyler was going to do whatever Mercedes said—that was the situation. It was a bad, bad situation; because she had experienced so much at a young age. Bob: How long did it take, and what did you do to win Mercedes over? W.C.: Showed them a lot of love— 9:00 —just loved them out of what they were in to show them that that was never God's will for them to have a life like that and that we are here. I told her—I said: “Mercedes, look. This is the last train to Georgia. You are not going nowhere. You might as well say, ‘This is it.'” And that was it. Dennis: You decided to adopt that quickly? W.C.: The way the state set it up—is that we had to foster for six months, with the intention of adoption after six months was up. Bob: And when you did this, word spread around Possum Trot what the bishop and his wife were doing; didn't it? W.C.: Yes; it spread it. By the same token, I'd been the person over our congregation. People now began to understand what adoption was really all about, not knowing in the beginning. I looked up every Scripture that I could find in the Bible. I learned that adoption was a God-thing, in the beginning. You know, if you look back—there was Moses was adopted / Esther was adopted.  10:00 A lot of people differ with me on this, but Jesus was an adopted child. I know there are other ways you can look at it, but He was an adopted child. [Applause] Dennis: Yes; and just to illustrate here—one of my favorite questions to ask an audience is: “How many of you, in this audience of almost 2,500 people, are adopted?” Hold your hands up. W.C.: Everybody! [Laughter] Dennis: Well, those of you who didn't hold your hands up, would you read Ephesians, Chapter 1: [Laughter] “…whom He predestined to become His sons”—and daughters—“through adoption.” W.C.: That's right. Dennis: The reason I think God calls us, as believers, to go near the orphan and to care for orphans is—it is God's heart / and it had better be, because we were lost and now we've been found. Bob: Now, you've got him preaching! See how this works?—back and forth! [Laughter]  Dennis: Yes. So what happened in your church? 11:00 W.C.: Well, after I got up and explained to the church what was going on, we started having families after families come and say, “I would like to do this, but I don't want…”—we had to drive 120 miles, round-trip, to take what they call Pride classes, that was a 12-week course. I had enough families—I went to the state and asked them, “Would they be willing to come to our church and teach the classes?”  Well, the lady said, “If you could go and find me eight families,” which they knew that was something that was just impossible to do—so they thought—but you know, God had another plan for it. What happened was—when I went and got the families, I carried a list back and laid it before her. When she unfolded the paper, I had 23 families on that list. [Laughter and cheering] Dennis: So what happened? She came? W.C.: She did! [Laughter] I don't know how many of you in here are case workers or ever did that before, but the work load that a case worker has to do is enormous!—  12:00 —you know, doing the home studies and doing the background history checks. That's a lot of work for anyone to do—and to say that she got 23 families now—that she's got to do all that work for. [Laughter] Dennis: At the time you started this, with 23 families—how many attended your church?  W.C.: We probably had about 85 families. Dennis: So a fourth of your church, back then, stepped up to care for foster care kids. W.C.: They stepped up, not having anything—because we didn't know / we didn't have a clue as to what was all involved. I did not know that there were children who had their own agenda and own ideas about where they were. I didn't know that they steal. I didn't know that they lie. I didn't know that they do stuff like that. I didn't have a clue about that.  Dennis: Right. W.C.: But they sent me to school, as well as gave me a Doctor's degree in child psychology! [Laughter] But by the same token, what happened—God had already taught us patience.  13:00 My oldest son—my biological son—is 29 years old. He was born with severe brain damage. So then, my brother thought that I had lost my mind. Bob: I am guessing Possum Trot is not an affluent community. W.C.: It's not. It's not at all, because it's a very poor community. One family that I have, right now: She had adopted five little girls / one of them was her child—she adopted five. Then, her sister died—she had got three. Then, her sister's husband died. Then, I went to the state because I did not want to see those children go back into the system in which they were fixing to come. I went to them and asked them, “What could we do to keep those children in the community?”  This family brought those children into their home. What she did—she raised 11 children in a trailer house. [Audience gasp] Bob: Wow. Dennis: You just raised an issue that I want our listening audience to be aware of. The church needs to realize the state is not the enemy when it comes to foster care. [Applause]  14:00 They really are—the state really is waiting, I think, for the church to come to them and to say: “We want to cooperate. We want to help you”; because the state doesn't know what to do with these children. They don't have homes for them to go into. They need someone to step up, and step forward, and say, “Give us—give us your children.” W.C.: Yes; that's right. That's right. See, that's what we did. We had a rough time in the beginning, because the school didn't know what to do about the children. But for the most part—I could say it like this: “If God is for you, who can be against you?” [Applause] It doesn't matter!  Dennis: Right. W.C.: It does not matter what goes on. If God calls you to this particular ministry, you are going to catch some slack, and you are going to catch some problems; but, ultimately, I can say you shall be victorious over everything that what they say:  15:00 “It can't be,”— with God, it can be; because the Scripture said, “I can do all things through Christ Jesus who strengthens me.” Bob: Now, you got him to preaching. See how this works? [Laughter] Dennis: Well, there's a reason why the school system felt the stress of what happened at Bennett Chapel. W.C.: Yes. Dennis: Share with the audience how many children have been adopted into families of your church. W.C.: We have, at this time, 76 children that have been adopted. [Applause and cheering] Bob: How has that changed Possum Trot? W.C.: It changed our hearts and opened our hearts up to let us know that God created it all. It's not so much what we're doing for ourselves—but what we're doing for others—because that's what Jesus did. Dennis: Right. W.C.: He went out of His way to show us that He loved us. What He wants us to do is follow that same trend and go all out of our way.  16:00 Adoption is a great thing. It's one of the greatest things that we ever can do, because we are only following what God has already started by adopting us. Back then, that was a part of the plan of salvation—was adoption. That's what we have to do, now. Everybody can't do it, but everybody can be a part of what God is doing in that arena of adoption. [Applause] Dennis: We sometimes think that we're doing the orphan a favor by going near and doing the noble thing of being a foster care parent or perhaps adopting. The orphan is certainly the recipient of love, but we don't realize how much we need the orphan to save us from toxic self-absorption. Bob: Yes. Dennis: Haven't you found that in your own life? W.C.: Yes, yes, yes—because Mercedes called my wife, the other day—she said: “Mamma, I don't know where I would be, because of the way my life was going, if it had not been for what you and Dad have done for me.  17:00 “I don't know how my life would have turned out.” Mercedes was a child that—she could steal you blind, tell the same lie a thousand times—never change her facial expression / never change one word of it—but she couldn't even count to ten. My wife used to spend hours, every day, putting pennies on the table to teach Mercedes. She taught her how to count to ten. Then, she taught her how to count to twenty, and just went on up. It ended up—Mercedes was an honor roll student in her class.  You know, God is showing us that these children have purpose in their life. They are just not—somebody—no; we are not doing them a favor, but I think they're doing us a favor; because what they are doing—they are teaching us some things about love that we don't even know. They are teaching us some God-kind of love—not just we are trying to love somebody—but they're teaching us something because those children really taught me what true love and pure love was all about— 18:00 —because we were reaching out, and bringing them in, and showing them a light that we were supposed to have been doing all the time.  This is something that every church on this earth needs to reach up and wake up: “If they can do it in Possum Trot, on the other side of Coonville—and they don't have no streetlights, don't have no street signs, don't have no hotels and all that stuff—we ought to be able to do it in our church.” Thank You, Jesus! [Applause, cheering, laughter] Dennis: I would imagine, right now, that every person, who is listening to this broadcast, goes to church. What is there unclear about the statement you just made? Go to your pastor, go to your elder board / your deacon board—whatever the structure is—and say: “Let's do something. Let's be doers of the Word, and be those who are about caring for the orphan.” W.C.: Yes; yes. 19:00 Bob: But don't just take it to the elders and deacons and say, “Here, you guys do something,”— Dennis: Oh, exactly, Bob. Bob: —because they have enough to do. You need to go and say, “We're here—ready to do whatever we can do to help this be a part of the culture of our church.” Dennis: And it's going to cost you.  Bob: Yes. Dennis: It's going to cost you 12 weeks of training, or whatever it is in your state.  W.C.: Yes; yes. Dennis: You're going to see a lot of red tape and a lot of system; but it's like: “If that's all the cause means to you and you're not willing to endure some things like that, then find something that grabs your heart.” W.C.: We don't have any Ph.D. folks at our church that can map out this and show you how to do that—we don't have that. But what we do have was just pure love that we can give a child. We just do the Word—like you just said—being a doer of the Word. This isn't about having a meeting to see if we want to do this. We just did the Word and gave God the GLORY for doing it! [Applause] 20:00 Dennis: And all of God's people said: Audience: Amen! [Laughter] Dennis: We're going to close the broadcast with a question; because I would like to know, “Out of everything you've done in all of your life, what is the most courageous thing you have ever done?” W.C.: I believe the most courageous thing that I've done, first of all, personally, was to accept Christ as my Savior. [Applause] That was number one.  And number two—I think that what I've done was to share me with so many children, all across this country. I'll continue to do that as long as God lets these legs move and lets this voice talk. I'm going to continue to let the world know that the church—the leaders / the pastor—we have a duty to perform before God. Don't let this go down as, “God got an indictment against the church for what He told us to do and we refused to do it.” That's a bad thing!  21:00 Let us, at this point, get involved / make a difference. Tell the pastor, “Look, we got to do this.” We, as pastors, are just like a mailman—we didn't write the letter, but we've got to deliver the letter. So what I'm saying to you: “Tell your people about adoption. If you can't do it, help them out to do it. Just do something!” [Applause] Dennis: Well, I want to thank you for being a courageous man— W.C.: God bless you. Dennis: —and for being a man who believes the God who is able to do exceedingly abundantly beyond— Dennis and W.C.: —all we can ever ask or think. Dennis: To Him be the glory for this generation and all generations. Bob: Would you guys thank Bishop Martin for joining us here? [Applause] W.C.: God bless you.   [Studio] Bob: Well, it's fun to listen back to our interview with Bishop W.C. Martin.  22:00 This took place back in 2013 at the Christian Alliance for Orphans Summit—a great event that is held annually in May. In fact, May 4th and 5th of 2017, the Summit will take place at Brentwood Baptist Church in Nashville, Tennessee. There's a good line-up on-hand. Ann Voskamp is going to be at the Summit this year / Andrew Peterson will be there. Of course, we'll be there, again, doing interviews for FamilyLife Today.  If you have a heart for orphan ministry—or for your church / if you're involved in orphan ministry—plan to join us at the Summit, May 4th and 5th, 2017, in Nashville, Tennessee. If you need more information about the Summit, go to our website, which is FamilyLifeToday.com. There's a link there that can get you all the information you need about next year's event. 23:00 Now, as the Christmas season is officially here—now that Thanksgiving is over—as you head toward the last few weeks of the year, I know some of you are beginning to think about yearend contributions to ministries, like FamilyLife Today. You need to know that all of the programs you hear on Christian radio look to this time of year as a significant time. What happens in the next few weeks really determines a lot about what our ministries will be like in 2017.  So I want to encourage you, first of all, as you think about yearend contributions, make sure that your local church is in first place in your giving. We believe that the local church ought to be your giving priority. Then, if there are programs on this station that have had an impact in your life this year, consider giving a yearend gift to one of those programs. If FamilyLife Today is one of those programs, we hope you'll consider a yearend contribution to this ministry as well. As I said, your financial support now determines a lot about what we can do in the months ahead.  24:00 We hope you'll prayerfully consider how you might support the programs on Christian radio that have ministered to you during the year 2016. And we hope you have a great weekend. I hope you and your family are able to worship together this weekend, and I hope you can join us back on Monday. We're going to talk about how we keep Jesus at the center of our holiday celebration by remembering who He is and what Christmas is really all about. Barbara Rainey will be with us. I hope you can join us as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

Daring to Hope (Part 1) - Katie Davis MajorsDaring to Hope (Part 2) - Katie Davis MajorsDaring to Hope (Part 3) - Katie Davis MajorsFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Serving the Hurting Guest:                         Katie Davis Majors               From the series:       Daring to Hope (Day 3 of 3)  Bob: As a single mother, a parent to 13 adopted children, Katie Davis Majors was surprised when a young man, also living in Uganda, began pursuing her.  Katie: He asked me out twice; and it was in the middle of, I think, just a hard season for me personally. Both times I said, “No”; and the second time, I really said like, firmly, “No”—like, “Hey,”— Barbara: “Don't ask again now.”   Katie: —“I hope we can still be friends; but if we can't, it's okay. We can't—we can't do that. No. No; thank you.”   Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, December 20th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. How Katie Majors went from a firm “No,” to becoming Mrs. Benji Majors—we'll hear that story today. Stay with us.  1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I want to meet Benji Majors sometime; don't you?   Dennis: I do!   Bob: I mean, I just want to meet the guy who was persistent and met a determined young woman and was determined to win her.  Dennis: I want to hear the story of whether or not he went to Uganda in search of Katie Davis, author of Kisses from Katie. [Laughter]  Bob: I'm just curious about Benji. You told us earlier that there was a guy who was living out in the house behind your house. You called Benji and said, “Would you want to come disciple him?”  Benji said, “Sure.”  I'm thinking: “Yes; Benji wanted to take you out. I would have come and discipled him and say, ‘I'll be there every day to disciple him if it gets me a little closer to you.'”  Do you think that was in the back of his mind?   Katie: At that point, no; I don't think so. [Laughter]   Dennis: Are you sure though?   Katie: No!  [Laughter]   Barbara: Yes; that was a hesitant yes. So, yes; I think that's right.  2:00   Dennis: Well, Katie is the author of a new book, Daring to Hope. She is now married. She is a mom of 14—13 of whom—a baker's dozen of Ugandan little girls, who are becoming, even against Katie's will, young ladies. They are growing up— Katie: Yes. Isn't that true?   Dennis: —growing up on her here.  I want to ask you my favorite question, but I'm going to ask you to wait to answer it— Katie: Okay.  Dennis: —until the end of the broadcast. Here is my question: “What's the most courageous thing you've ever done in all of your life?”  Now, don't answer right now—I'm going to give you a moment to think about it—but courage is doing your duty in the face of fear.  I've got a sneaking suspicion, because of your book, Daring to Hope, that you've got a definition or two that comes from your book that you'd share with our listeners; but to get there, what I want to first have you do is tell us about the woman who had five children, who was dying of TB and HIV, who came to you.  3:00 Her name was Katherine. Tell our listeners that story of how you cared for her.  Katie: Katherine came to live with us when she became very ill. Her five children, under the age of ten, were sponsored by Amazima; so we were paying for their school.  Dennis: Okay; let's just stop here. Amazima is an organization you run in Uganda.  Katie: Yes. We—our goal is really to disciple families and to empower the families to stay together. About 80 percent of children in institutions in East Africa actually have one living parent; and they end up institutionalized just due to financial poverty. Their parents cannot afford to pay for them to go to school, or to pay for their medical care, or to pay for their food; so they send them to these institutions.  That was something that was very shocking to me the first year that I lived in Uganda, and I really desired to try to change the system.  4:00 Through financial sponsorship of school fees, and some food, and some basic medical provision, Amazima works to keep these children with their biological family members; but of course, the heartbeat of our organization is really that, in doing that, we would form a relationship with these families and lead them to Christ.  Dennis: Katherine was one of those moms who had experienced the care of your organization.  Katie: Yes; so we were in relationship with her and had known her for a few years through her children; and she just got sicker and sicker to the point where she wasn't really able to take care of her children very well. She moved over to our house so that I could help her out with her children and, also, because our house is very close to the local hospital, and she needed a little more immediate access to medical care. We were just down the street from the doctor she was seeing.  They lived with us for several months. I truly, really, believed that God was going to heal her of her illness—that she would become healthy and strong again.  5:00 I had imagined it in my head—the happy ending, where she would move out with her children.  We always throw a bit of a celebration for people who have lived with us for a season and get to move out on their own again. We've had many families, especially struggling single mothers, live with us over the years. We always have a big celebration when they become well, or they finally find a job, or their child is finally healthy enough, and they can move out. I really thought that that would be the case with Katherine and her family as well; and she did get better for some time, but then she began to deteriorate very quickly.  Dennis: She passed away.  Katie: She did.  Dennis: You compared your experience to the prophet Habakkuk and how he had to deal with some disappointments as well. You learned through that disappointment that there isn't always a happy ending to the story—but in this case, there was a happy ending to the story because— Katie: Right.  6:00 Dennis: —she went to heaven.  Katie: Yes; absolutely. That's what Habakkuk says—right?—that though the olive crop fails, though the leaves wither, though there are no sheep in the pen—basically, even if I can't see it, still I will hope / still I will rejoice in God my Savior. I felt like that was something God was teaching me in a season where I had really thought we would see it—we would see a happy ending where she stayed alive. God showed me—still I can rejoice, even though things didn't go my way.  Barbara: I remember discovering that verse when our children were teenagers. They were starting to kind of press the limits a little bit and push back on us. I discovered that verse, and I thought, “This is a perfect verse for a mother— Katie: Yes.  Barbara: —“of children of all ages; but especially, teenagers.”  I think the oldest was only 15 at the time; but I remember, when I read that, I just hung on to that because I thought: “Lord, there is no guarantee— 7:00 Katie: Yes.  Barbara: —“that all the best parenting, all the prayer—none of that guarantees that my children will choose You, they will choose to live a good life, they will be responsible / they'll be productive. They're no guarantees. It could all fail. It could all be gone. Will I trust You if You do that?”  It was a real turning point in my life; because I said, “Okay; God, I will. I will choose to believe You even if none of my children flourish / there is no green on the vine.”    Katie: And isn't that the hardest part of parenting— Barbara: Absolutely.  Katie: —is just that moment when you realize, “Even if I do everything perfectly,”—which I'm not— Barbara: Which we're not—none of us do.  Katie: —“but even if I did,— Barbara: Yes.  Katie: —“there is no guarantee— Barbara: None.  Dennis: No.  Katie: —“there is going to be any fruit here. There's no guarantee that these—that they are going to choose Christ in their own lives, and they have to choose it for themselves.”  That's the scariest part of it for sure!   Barbara: Yes; exactly, because it's not something that we can do for them.  Katie: No.  8:00 Bob: Bryan Loritts, who is a pastor in Northern California, who is a part of The Art of Parenting video series that's coming out before long, makes the observation: “God is a perfect Father. God has rebellious children.”   Barbara: Yes; lots of rebellious children. [Laughter]  Katie: Yes.  Bob: So, think about that—here's a perfect Father with rebel kids. Why should we think that we, as imperfect parents, will be spared a little rebellion in our home?—right?   Katie: Right.  Dennis: No doubt about it. Just as Barbara was talking about, we have learned a bunch about God's love for us as we have loved our kids and watched them struggle in their faith, from time to time.  Katie, I know from reading your book that you have learned a lot about the love of God through the 14 children that you have.  Katie: Oh, absolutely; because even—you know, as a parent, you see so clearly that, even when you are disciplining your children, it's not out of this place of anger toward them or hatred toward them— 9:00 —it's out of such this place of love and a desire for good things to come in their lives.  I think I've understood so much more that—when God disciplines me in my own life, when God tells me to go in a direction that I don't really feel like I want to go, or when God even brings me through a difficult time—it is His love that does that to shape me, to change me, to teach me; because He wants good things for me. I think, as parents, when we feel that love for our children, we can see it so much more clearly from God's vantage point.  Dennis: Yes; I really agree.  Katie, before we get too far away from the story of Katherine, who died, and her five children—what happened to those five?  Did you adopt them?   Katie: I didn't. They did stay with us for a little while, immediately following her death.  10:00 Then, we placed them with a biological aunt, who they lived with for some time; but that situation was never really good. The aunt was very young, and she was also struggling. She didn't have any biological children, so she had never parented before; and the children were really suffering there with her. We would provide food, and we would drive out there to visit them; but it just never seemed to be a good situation.  I was just getting desperate, just praying, asking the Lord what I should do. I mean, the idea of having five more children come to my house was a lot. At the same time, I was not clearly seeing another option. They were a sibling set of five—like there aren't many families that are willing to take that on, even in the foster care system.  I had gone to visit my friend, Rose. Before I started talking, she said, “You know, my daughter Helen”—who had been a good friend of my daughters and was in and out of our house a lot—she said:  11:00 “My daughter told me about what happened to the mom of those kids. I'm so sorry. God's just put it on my heart to really pray for them; but also, just to ask you: ‘Is there anything they need?—even, maybe, do they need a place to go?'”   Of course, I like start to weep and just said: “Oh, I can't even tell you—that has been on my heart all week. I've been praying.”  I was even just telling a good friend of mine earlier that same day—like, “I do not know what we're going to do for these children, but I feel like—I told their mom, before she died, that I would make sure they were okay. It feels like a lot of responsibility.”   Rose and I talked for several more hours that day about what it would mean for her to start fostering them. About a month later, we went through all the paperwork process; and social workers visited with both families.  12:00 About a month later, we are able to help move Katherine's five children into Rose's home.  Barbara: Wow.  Dennis: You know, I just marvel at your acts of courage to care for Katherine as she died, to care for her children after she died, and also your courage in developing a relationship with a young man called Benji.  Bob: Yes; you talked about how unusual it is for somebody to take five kids in as foster kids. [Laughter]   Katie: That is a little ironic; isn't it?   Barbara: Yes; it is.  Bob: How unusual is it for a young man to say, “I'm going to be the husband to a mom of 13?!”   Katie: Yes; it's not usual.  Barbara: It's not normal.  Dennis: So, he asked you out twice before you said, “Yes.”   Katie: He did. He asked me out a couple of times; and both times, I said, “No.”  The second time, I really said, like firmly, “No,”—like, “Hey,— Barbara: Like “Don't-ask-again” no?   13:00  Katie: —“I hope we can still be friends; but if we can't, it's okay.”  [Laughter] Dennis: It was a “Dear John.”   Katie: “We can't do that. I'm—no. No; thank you.”   So, then, really, after that, I think I got to watch his heart on display a lot more; because I trusted that he wasn't going to ask me again. He was very respectful in that—he didn't really come over as much after that. He was still discipling the man that lived in the back of our yard, but he would come—he would go straight to Mack. He would spend his time with him, and he would leave. He would not come say, “Hello,” to me / he would not try to make conversation. I mean, I felt very respected in that—that he didn't. He heard what I said, and he didn't push the boundaries.  I got to watch him and his heart for people, and for service, and truly for the gospel through that. He was also attending this large Bible study that we all went to on Wednesday nights.  14:00 He often led worship or even led the teaching at that Bible study. I was just—I was so attracted to his heart for the Lord. I was telling my good friend, like: “Oh my gosh. I think I like him; but now, I can't tell him; because he's never going to ask—he's not going to ask me out again. There is no hope.”  So, I did—I had to call him and ask him if he would come over for coffee; and he said, “No.” [Laughter]  Barbara: He didn't want to risk it again; huh?   Katie: Well, yes!  I mean, I had said so— Barbara: Yes.  Katie: —clearly that I didn't want to date him. What was he going to be doing having coffee with me?  Why would you have coffee with a young, single female that wasn't going to date you?  [Laughter]  So, I had to beg and plead a little bit, you know: “Please, I need to talk to you about something important. Can you come?  Can we just—can we just have a cup of coffee?”  So, he finally said, “Yes.”   Dennis: Oh no!  You've got to say— Barbara: And he said?   Dennis: Yes?—what happened over the cup of coffee?   Katie: Well, then, I was so nervous.  15:00 I made like dumb small talk the whole time; right?  So, after about an hour, he's looking at his watch; and he's like— Barbara: “Okay?”   Katie: —“Okay; well, this was nice. I think I'm going to go.”  So, then, I just kind of blurted out some words that probably didn't even make sense—like: “You know, I was thinking / I was wondering if, maybe—do you want to like—we could spend more time together, you know, intentionally; you know?”   Barbara: Real coherent; right?   Katie: Right; exactly. He's just kind of looking at me; and finally, he said, “Like—like dating?”  I said, “Well, yes.”  He said, “Okay; I'm going to pray about that,” and he left!  [Laughter]   Dennis: He didn't go for the bait!   Katie: What I didn't know, at the time—which is amazingly the Lord's provision and just further confirmation that we both really were trying to seek after Him— 16:00 —was that he had been in conversation, earlier that week, with some of his supporters in the States about whether or not his time in Uganda was coming to a close. He felt like he had pretty effectively discipled these 30 men. They were all kind of going out into the world and starting churches and discipling other young men. He felt like: “Okay; I could kind of take under my wing another group,” or “I could just keep in touch with this group via Skype and internet. Maybe, my time here is coming to a close.”   He had been in conversation with people about whether or not he was moving back when he got my phone call asking him to come to coffee. What I didn't know, when he said he needed to pray about this, was this was a much bigger decision than “Am I going to date this girl?”  This was a decision for him of: “Is there more of life for me in Uganda right now?”   17:00 Dennis: And so, how long did you date?   Katie: Probably, almost a year from that point until we got engaged; and then, we were engaged for about eight months.  Dennis: Time out. How did he propose?   Katie: It was so sweet. He actually—he's such a good dad—he took all the girls out for ice cream earlier in the week. He just said to me like—and he would do this sometimes—he would say: “I'm going to take the girls out to eat,” or “I'm going to take them down to the river to play for a little bit so that you can get some quiet.” He had taken the girls out for ice cream and took them over to his house, actually, and sat them all down and said: “I would like to propose to your mom. What do you think about that?”  They all gave feedback; and then, he let them help him plan how he would propose to me.  Dennis: Wow.  Barbara: That's so sweet!   Katie: He showed them the ring, and he let them— Barbara: So sweet.  Katie: —he let it be a family affair, which I just loved that he knew my heart well enough to know that I would have felt like something was missing if they hadn't been a part of that.  18:00 Actually, our best friends came to babysit the girls; and he took me back over to his place. There was a picnic laid out—his yard is kind of right on the edge of the lake that we live nearby—and he proposed. Then, as soon as I said, “Yes,” all our girls came running out of the bushes. They had watched the whole thing.  Barbara: Oh how sweet!  Oh, I love it.  Katie: They were so excited, and they had picked flowers. They were throwing them on us—it was so sweet.  Barbara: So, did anybody capture any photos of that—I hope?   Katie: No.  Barbara: I'm just thinking, “Oh, I wish I could have seen that.”  It just sounds delightful.  Dennis: Great video.  Katie: I know!   Barbara: Even just a few still photographs.  Katie: It was so dark, but it's like seared in my memory forever!     Barbara: I'm sure it is; yes.  Dennis: So, back to my original question, at the beginning of the broadcast: “Katie Davis Majors, what's the most courageous thing you've ever done in all your life?”   19:00 Katie: That is a hard question, but I think—I think the most courageous thing that I have ever done is to trust God when I can't see what He's doing. I don't think that's a courage that has come from me. I think that God, Himself, has allowed me the grace to continue to trust Him.  I think that that's the most courageous thing that any of us can do—is to continue to put our hope and our trust in God, even when we don't really feel like it. He has shown me that that hope does not disappoint me because, even when I don't get what I want, I get more of Him—I get to know Him more / I get to know sides of Him that I wouldn't have known if I hadn't scooted up next to Him like that.  Bob: So, you're saying, even if the olive tree is barren— Katie: Yes!   Bob: —and the leaves are withering— 20:00 —to say, “I'm still going to trust Him.”  That's where real courage comes from.  Katie: I think that that is real courage.  Dennis: As you were talking, I couldn't help but think of this passage in Romans, Chapter 5.  Katie: I love this one.  Dennis: “More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces—  Katie: —“hope.”   Dennis: —“hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.”   Katie: Yes!   Dennis: God in you—changing you.  Katie: Yes.  Dennis: Great answer to the question.  Katie: Thanks.  Bob: Well, and there is a lot of courage that shows up in the book that you've written called Daring to Hope. It's a book that tells the story of how God has been with you in the midst of suffering / how you've seen His goodness in the brokenness of where you live and work.  21:00 I would encourage our listeners: Get a copy of Katie's book, Daring to Hope. You can order it from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to order at 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.”   You know, one of the things that, Dennis, both you and I love to hear are stories of redemption—people whose lives were broken / headed in the wrong direction—they were in the ditch, as you like to say—and God intervenes and turns them in a new direction and points them in a new direction—turns their whole life around. Recently, we got a chance to meet with a number of listeners, who said FamilyLife Today was a part of their redemption story.   22:00 Some of the stories we heard were just remarkable.  I was sitting there, thinking, “I wish our Legacy Partners / I wish the folks who help support this ministry could be here with us, hearing these stories, because that's what you're giving to when you support the ministry of FamilyLife Today.”  You're helping us reach more people more regularly with practical biblical help and hope.  And here, as 2017 is drawing to a close, I know some of you are thinking about possible yearend donations to ministries like ours. There is a special opportunity for you to give over the next couple of weeks—it's a matching-gift fund that's been established for this ministry. Michelle Hill is here with details on how we're doing with that matching-gift fund. Hi, Michelle!   23:00 Michelle: Hey Bob…well by now many folks have heard that the match fund has more than doubled (it's now 4.3 million dollars) but the real important number is one, as in that one person listening right now and deciding to give…and maybe you're that one? J   I mean really Bob, the match isgoing to be met one gift at a time…and so far over five thousand people have made that decision. So, thanks to each one…like Don from Canton, Ohio? Today we're at NINE HUNDRED SEVENTY ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS...which is great! BUT…if we're going to take full advantage of the match, we'll need a lot of other ones to pray and then give as God leads. Bob: Well, and if you'd like to be a part of helping us take full advantage of the matching gift, you can make a donation today, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to donate—1-800-358-6329 is the number—1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY”; or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223.  24:00 And if you haven't sent us a Christmas card yet, send a Christmas card and just tuck something inside; okay?   And I hope you can join us back again tomorrow when we're going to hear a conversation we had, not long ago, with our friends, Don and Sally Meredith. This is a remarkable couple who God used in a significant way to help birth the ministry of FamilyLife all the way back in 1976. I hope you can tune in and meet our friends, Don and Sally Meredith.  I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com  

Listen to Part 1Listen to Part 2Listen to Part 3Listen to Part 4 FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Out of the Depths Day 2 of 4 Guest:                           Ed Harrell From the Series:         Mercy at Sea________________________________________________________________ Bob:                Sixty years ago this week, Ed Harrell was afloat in the Pacific.  His ship, the cruiser USS Indianapolis, had been sunk by Japanese torpedoes.  Many of the crew members had not escaped. Those who had, found themselves battling for their lives on the open seas with no help in sight.  What was in sight were sharks. Ed:                  You can't imagine, and I can't explain, you know, the feeling that you have.  You know that at any moment that the shark could get you, and you wonder, you know, am I going to be next?  You know, you pray and you pray more, and you pour your heart out to the Lord, and just hope and pray that somehow, some way, that He will be faithful to the promise that you feel that He's made to you and that you'll be able to endure. Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, August 2nd.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll hear a powerful story today of courage and faith as we speak with one of the survivors of the USS Indianapolis.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us.  I somehow missed this in my study of U.S. history.  I don't know that I ever was aware that on the night of July 30, 1945, just weeks before the end of World War II, a Japanese submarine, I-58, launched a spread of torpedoes at the USS Indianapolis in the Pacific Theater. Two of those torpedoes found their mark and, in less than 15 minutes, this cruiser sank in the Marianas, and there were almost 1,200 men on board the ship.  More than 800 of those men did not survive the attack or the days that followed that attack.  And I don't know, Dennis, that I'd ever heard about that battle or about the sinking of the ship, but it's truly a compelling story, especially when you consider that some 300 men were rescued days later. Dennis:          Yes, and we have one of those men who was rescued back with us.  Ed Harrell joins us again on FamilyLife Today.  Ed, welcome back. Ed:                  Thank you. Dennis:          I want to express my appreciation for you, as a veteran, just for serving our nation and also for coming here on our broadcast and telling the story, a dramatic story, of what has to be one of the most phenomenal survival stories, really, Bob, in all of the World War II and maybe in the history of the United States.  I mean, what you had to endure and go through.  But we'll get to that in just a moment.                          Ed is a businessman, was on the board of trustees of Moody Bible for a number of years.  He and his wife Ola [ph] have a couple of children and a number of grandchildren and great-grandchildren, and he is a survivor of the USS Indianapolis.  Ed, I want you to take our listeners back, because you shared earlier the story of standing on the deck of this boat – this great, massive boat, over 600 feet long, at midnight as it's sinking in less than 15 minutes.  What were you hearing at that moment?  It's pitch black, there's a little bit of light from the fires that are burning midship, but what was the sound like?  Was it of screams of people?  Were there explosions? Ed:                  There were still explosions going on for a good while.  In fact, when the ship actually went under there were still explosions that were taking place below deck.  I don't know that I'm waiting to listen to see what might be taking place.  I am eager to get off, and I make my way, then, to the port side and hung onto that rail and said my prayer before I entered into the water, and I knew, beyond any shadow of doubt, that the Lord had, through the Spirit, was bearing witness with my spirit that He was with me and that I would make it, somehow, some way.                           I know, later on, when I was interviewed, they asked me, "What were you thinking out there?  Did you think that you were going to make it?"  And I said, "I thought of the 30-day leave that I would get for being a survivor and be able to go home," because I hadn't been home for a good while, and I was thinking about going home, frankly. Bob:                You had one what you've described as a kapok jacket, a life preserver, is that what that was? Ed:                  That's right. Bob:                And I guess I'm wondering – were there lifeboats on board the ship?  Were there inflatable rafts?  Was it "man the lifeboats?" Ed:                  No word of that kind was given.  In fact, you didn't have time, they didn't have time.  I could look up and see life rafts hanging, and those kapok jackets hanging, but no word was given to cut those loose, and I never saw a life raft.  There were floater nets, likewise, that later floated up, and they spread them out, and boys could somewhat stand in those – not completely, but at least it would keep the sharks from coming up through after them.  And then the life rafts, then, some of those floated loose, but I never saw a raft, I never saw one in the water the whole time. Dennis:          That first moment you hit the water, you burst through the surface, you got clear of the oil so you could breathe.  Did you begin swimming away from the sinking ship at that point?  I mean, again, to those of us who are laymen, a ship going down is supposed to create some kind of vacuum or – and suck survivors back down after it.  Did that occur? Ed:                  That was my thinking, and I was I a rush – not necessarily a good swimmer, but I was in a rush to get away from the ship, and I got away from it maybe 50 yards, then, to turn, then, to watch it as it sank.  I could still hear some explosions as it was going under.  Then, actually, as the ship went under, and all of that water that was in the bow, you know, you can imagine the ship is going down and all the water in there, as it's pushing up through the ship, the ship is giving a real – I call it kind of a whissing sound in that that area is pushing out, and a tremendous amount of air is coming out of the ship as it went under, and I could hear that.  But that was about – no suction.  Different ones claim that they actually were pulled under and some with kapok jackets were pulled under, and then the kapok jacket then pulled them back up.  So it wasn't the suction that I had been led to believe that would be the case in such a sinking. Bob:                And it's the middle of summer in the South Pacific, so I'm imagining that water temperature may have been warm?  Although you had a blanket around you when you were on board ship.  Was it chilly? Ed:                  Well, we were traveling, you know, right out in the open about 17 knots, so 15 miles an hour, so to speak, and I needed that blanket around me to keep the chill off of me, because it would be a little chilly and, yes, at night the water was cool.  In fact, the water in the Pacific at that time was about 85 degrees and, of course, if you stay in the water, you know, long, at 85 degrees then your body temperature is going to drop to 85 degrees or close to that.                         Yet, in the daytime, then, you're going to warm up to 100 degrees.  So you burn up in the daytime, and you're desperate for water because you're swimming most of the time.  You're either swimming to stay in a group, or you're swimming to get back into a group when you've come upon a swell, and you've kind of been separated.  And you can imagine, you know, when we had 50 or 70 or so boys, and you go up on a swell 20-feet high, and that breaks away, then you're separated maybe by 50 yards.  So just nearly immediately, even the first day, we learned that we needed to take our kapok jackets and kind of hook onto each other and stay and keep – even keep some of those – in fact, we had some that didn't have life jackets, and we had some boys that were injured, and we'd try to keep them in the center of our group or else we were separated completely. Bob:                How big was your group that you were linked together with?  That first night you swam over to a group and I'm sure started talking about what do we do and how do we prepare for whatever is ahead.  How many guys were around you? Ed:                  There were 80 in our – the best that we could count, there were 80 in our group and, of course, again, it's night, right after midnight, but the best that we could take inventory, there were 80 of us.  I had two other Marines with me, and one of them had been blown up against the bulkhead.  He had multiple breaks in his body, and he couldn't stand for me to even hardly touch him, to give him any assistance.  But he did have a life jacket, and then the other Marine buddy, then, had gone into the water head first and had gotten all that oil, then, in his eyes, and he's going to suffer with that, now, the next few days – tremendous suffering that he experienced the next few days. Dennis:          Do you remember the dawn on that first morning? Ed:                  I can remember the dawn very well the first morning, because we had company.  We had sharks, and we had lost maybe a dozen or so boys that night … Dennis:          … of the 80? Ed:                  Of the 80, and yet we still had their kapoks and them with us, and then sometime, then, up in the morning there – I don't recall just exactly how and when we did it, but we removed their dogtags and someone supposedly kept those, and then we released them and gave them, you know, a so-called proper burial there at sea, and someone – there was an officer or two there with us that someone would say The Lord's Prayer, and that was about the extent of their burial, and then – it was up in the day, maybe a little bit later before the sharks really began to come around us too much.  And, really, they didn't seem to want to attack our group.  As long as we stayed in a group, they didn't bother our group. But if someone would stray from the group – and that's another reason why we tried to fasten ourselves together and form a circle to keep everyone intact – if someone would break loose and swim out, then, all of a sudden, you would hear a bloodcurdling scream, and you'd look and see that kapok jacket went under, and then suddenly, then, it would come back up and there would be sharks and there would be fighting over the remains there for a little bit.  So that began to take place all that first day. Dennis:          That had to be absolutely terrifying.  I mean – I can't even begin to fathom how fear would grip an individual but also a group of people.  I mean, you'd see the dorsal fins above the surface, circling you? Ed:                  We'd see them circling us and nearly, at any given time, if maybe you didn't see them, and you'd wonder, "Well, maybe they've gone."  Just put your head in the water and, of course, you could see them – you know, maybe there would be 20, you know, 12, 15-foot sharks swimming around down under you.  Whether they are attacking you or not, you know, you're still frightened to death.  They would be swimming under you and around you and even through the group.  Then, you know, you draw your feet up tight, you draw your gut up, and you're so tense that – well, you can't imagine, and I can't explain, you know, the feeling that you have when you know that at any moment that the shark could get you. And maybe the next moment, your buddy that's within five feet of you, a shark hits him and takes a leg off or disembowels him or an arm is gone, and yet you wonder, you know, "Am I going to be next?"  And yet, you know, you pray more, and and you pour your heart out to the Lord, and just hope and pray that somehow, some way, that He will be faithful to the promise that you feel that He's made to you, and that you'll be able to endure.  But you wonder, too, how much longer, you know, can you endure?  And then when you see, you know, maybe by the second day that 20 of them or so are gone, and by the third day at noon, there are 17 of us. I had a sailor come up to me and said, "Hey, Marine, see that island over there?  I just came from over there."  He said, "Captain Parks [ph], Lieutenant Stouffer [ph], Sergeant Cromley [ph], they're over there.  They're having a picnic.  They want you to come over," and, you know, you would hear him, and you would think that he knows exactly what he's talking about but, you know, you've seen what's been happening here for these two days and see the boys that had succumbed to drinking some of the their salt water and then see, within 15 minutes, after they have had a good drink of salt water, you'd see them begin to hallucinate and begin to thrash in the water and begin to scream and yell and just all kinds of contortions, and then you knew what is going to happen. I know this one that saw my Marine buddies out there, he swam away, and he got away maybe 25 yards and, all of a sudden, that bloodcurdling scream, and I looked to see, and saw that kapok jacket go under, and a little bit later then the kapok comes back up with part of the body still fastened to the kapok jacket. Bob:                There had to be just an ongoing cycle of fear and grief.  I mean, fear because sharks are all around you.  You don't know if there's anybody that even knows you're out there, what's going to happen to you?  And then the grief – these are buddies.  These are guys you lived on board ship with, even if you hadn't met them before, for the last 24 hours, you've been in the water with these guys.  You're in a foxhole, and to watch them swim away and watch a shark take their life over and over again.   Ed:                  That's right. Bob:                The grief in your heart – how did you handle that emotional trauma? Ed:                  You had to keep praying, and I know my one Marine buddy that actually did make it – not in my group – later, he left us, and – but, anyway, he was a survivor, and he tells in his testimony that Harrell – I actually was his squad leader, and he said, "Harrell, he was always praying and quoting Scripture," and he called me a hard-shell Christian.  I told him later, I said, "You could have called me a hard-head Christian.  But he called me a "hard-headed Christian.  He was always praying and quoting Scripture."                         And he was asked, "Do you think that did any good?  Did that help to save you?"  And he said, "Well, we survived, and I think it did." Dennis:          You quoted the 23rd Psalm over and over and over again. Ed:                  Right. Dennis:          That brought comfort to your soul? Ed:                  You know, when you think of the psalm, you say, "The Lord is my shepherd, He maketh me to lie down" – the words "He" the personal pronoun, the Lord.  And then after you say it a time or two, then you say, "The Lord is MY shepherd.  He maketh ME to lie down in green pastures."  And so you apply it to your own heart, and then you feel that He hears you and that He responds and then you see a buddy then go, and then you're spared, and then you feel that the Lord, that somehow, some way, has given you assurance that He's still with you, that you're going to make it.                         And then on the second day, you know, when you're so thirsty that you're tongue begins to swell in your mouth, and you get to where you can't talk properly, and you're praying for water, swimming in it, but you know that you can't drink it, you know the poison that it contains, especially in a dehydrated body, and you've seen your buddies drink some of that.  I saw boys, as they would hold – tear off some of their clothing and take some water and put it up in that piece of cloth and put their head down under it and drink some of that, thinking that maybe it's got some of the salt out.  They were desperate for water.  And yet maybe in 15 minutes, then you begin to see them jerk and quiver and thrash in the water, and then they began to be not too coherent, and they began to imagine all kinds of things. And so I knew I couldn't drink that, but then you pray for water, and it was sometime that second day that we had prayed and even as a group we prayed.  I often say that there's no such thing as an atheist in foxholes and no atheist out there.  Everybody either prayed, or they would ask you to pray, and we prayed.  And so we're praying for water.  We have to have it, or else we aren't going to survive, we think.  And then after our little prayer meeting, then to look up and see a little cloud out in the distance, and seeing, as it got closer and closer, and as it got closer, you know, you could see that it's raining.  And you open your mouth heavenward, you know, and you thank the Lord, and you take your hands, and you put up to your mouth, and you kind of funnel the water as that little cloud moved over.  I don't know whether I got two or three tablespoons full of water, but nevertheless I got some water there on that second day, and then there were other reminders later in the other days where the Lord gave me assurance that He was with me. Dennis:          It's been 60 years.  I'm listening to you tell this story with emotion that seems as fresh as though it happened yesterday – the Lord is my Shepherd, He leadeth me, He restores. Ed:                  Right. Dennis:          And, you know, in hearing your story, there has to be listeners right now who may not be in the middle of an ocean, but they're in the middle of a crisis, and they're encircled, and it's pain, it's panic, it's chaos, it's bedlam.  The Lord is still the same Good Shepherd.  He invites you to come unto Him, and He'll lead you beside the quiet streams and the green pastures, and He will restore.  But you have to take Him at His word, and you have to pray that prayer, Ed, like you prayed – "The Lord is MY shepherd," I am praising, He does lead me and for that person right now, I just would invite you.  Maybe you've given the 23rd Psalm 100 times, maybe you've read it, memorized it, maybe it's time to believe it and to express it. Bob:                I don't know if you've seen it, but our friend, Chip Ingram, has written a new book called "I Am With You Always," which explores pivotal chapters from the Psalms, and the design is to help all of us understand that in the midst of adversity, in the midst of trial – King David went through great trials.  God was with him.  When we go through trials, God is with us.  When you went through your trials out in the Pacific 60 years ago this week, God was with you, Ed.                           And we've got Chip's book in our FamilyLife Resource Center.  In fact, we've got the book you wrote, as well, called "Out of the Depths," which tells the story of the sinking of the Indianapolis and your survival of that disaster.  Any of our listeners who want to contact us to get both of those books, we'll send you at no additional cost the CDs that have our conversation this week with Ed Harrell.  And, in fact, they have expanded material, because we are not able to include all of the interview in our broadcast time.  So you'll get the complete interview with Ed Harrell when you contact us.                         Go to our website, FamilyLife.com.   At the bottom of the screen you'll see a little button that says "Go" with "Today's Resources" around it.  Click that button, it will take you right to the page where you can get more information about these resources.  You can order online.  Again, the website is FamilyLife.com, and you click the "Go" button at the bottom of the screen.  Or if it's easier to call, you can call 1-800-FLTODAY.  That's 1-800-358-6329, 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY, and someone on our team can help you get these resources sent out to you.                         When you do contact us, if you're able to make a donation for the ministry of FamilyLife Today during the month of August, there is an additional resource we would love to send you as a thank you gift.  Back a few months ago, we had a conversation with Shaunti Feldhahn, who is the author of a book called "For Women Only."  We featured that interview on FamilyLife Today back in the spring, and it was immediately well received by our listeners.  I think they found it very helpful.  Shaunti had done research with more than 1,000 men, asking them about what is at the core of what a man needs in a relationship with his wife, and some of the responses were surprising, very revealing.  We'd like to send those two CDs to you as our way of saying thank you this month when you make a donation of any amount to support the ministry of FamilyLife Today.                         Just ask for the CDs for women when you call 1-800-FLTODAY or if you're online, and you're filling out a donation form, just type the two letters "CD" in the keycode box, and that will let us know that you'd like to have the Shaunti Feldhahn CDs sent to you.  Again, our website is FamilyLife.com, or you can call 1-800-FLTODAY and, again, thanks in advance for whatever you are able to do in terms of helping with our financial needs during the month of August.                         Well, tomorrow we're going to be back to continue our conversation with Ed Harrell.  We'll hear about how you almost gave up hope on the third day that you were at sea.  In fact, some of the guys who were with you did give up hope.  We'll hear more about that tomorrow.  I hope our listeners can be back with us for that.                         I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.                          FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.  ________________________________________________________________ We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would   you consider donating today to help defray the costs?         Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved.       www.FamilyLife.com

Listen to Part 1Listen to Part 2Listen to Part 3Listen to Part 4FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Out of the Depths Day 4 of 4 Guest:                            Ed Harrell From the Series:         Ducks on the Pond: Rescued at Last________________________________________________________________ Bob:                Sixty years ago this week, Ed Harrell and a number of other sailors were pulled from the Pacific.  They had survived four-and-a-half days afloat after the sinking of the USS Indianapolis.  It's four days that, as you might imagine, Ed Harrell has never been able to forget. Ed:                  I have not had nightmares.  I've had many times that I've awakened and have a vivid scene of the happenings, and yet I think my counteraction to that is "Thank you, Lord, for sparing my life and for bringing me through all of this." Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, August 4th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll hear how God spared Ed Harrell's life today, and we'll hear a remarkable story about a rescue in the middle of the Pacific.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us.  You know, Hollywood has told some tales of castaways left on a desert island, folks surviving in the middle of nowhere, and I've seen some of those movies, and you watch them, and they're interesting.  They have never come close to telling the story that we've heard this week. Dennis:          No, I agree, Bob.  Ed Harrell has been with us all this week and has told a story, a compelling story of how God enabled him to survive an ordeal at sea after being a crew member on the USS Indianapolis, which was sunk on the night of July 30, 1945, by a Japanese submarine, and, Ed, I want to thank you again for your service as a veteran, but also for writing this book and for taking us there and giving us a greater appreciation not just for veterans and what they've done to protect our freedom as Americans but also for taking us there and showing us what tough-minded faith in Almighty God looks like.  Because time and time again you've taken us to vivid scenes where you've been at a fork in the road where you've had to trust God, and you'd been at sea for four days in a life jacket.  You'd only had a few tablespoons of water.  You had some rotten potatoes that had come after you'd prayed for some food; been separated from your buddies, and on the fourth day you are virtually alone. Ed:                  No question.  Even with my buddy at the time and, in fact, there were three of us at the tail end there that fourth day and the one then dropped his head in the water, and he's gone, and then it's just McKissock and myself.  And my mind, by now, is beginning to fail me somewhat in that – McKissock, I know, would say to me, "Hey, Marine, you ever been to the Philippines?"  And, "No, I've never been there."  Well, he had, and he promised to kind of take me under his wing when we got there.                          And yet I knew him.  I knew who he was.  I'd served under him, and he was a peach of a guy, and yet, to me, he was Uncle Edwin, and I called him Uncle Edwin.  I had an uncle two years older than me.  I guess I was thinking of the good times in my mind with someone back home, and yet McKissock was Uncle Edwin to me.                                                And then it was sometime then that afternoon, you know, we had seen the planes, heard them at 30,000 feet, and I say to McKissock, "I hear a plane."  And he said, "I hear one, too," and if you can imagine somewhat that you hear a plane, and you know that it's somewhere coming closer, and yet you don't know which direction it is.  And we began to look all around and, finally, we could detect that it's coming from that direction. Dennis:          Was it coming toward you? Ed:                  It was coming toward us, and it was flying about 8,000 feet and, well, what do you do?  I tell you what you do.  You scream, you splash water, you make all kinds of contortions there in the water, hoping and praying that he can see you.  But here he is flying over us, and had he come any further, he would have gone over us, but when he got, like a quarter of a mile or so out here, flying at 8,000 feet, he headed it straight down toward us as if he knew we were there.  But he didn't know we were there – impossible for him to see us.  If we'd had on deer-hunter orange, and he knew we were there, he could not have seen us.                         In fact, the pilot that later picked us up, he said the possibility of him seeing you would be the equivalent of taking the cross-section of a human hair and looking at the end of that human hair at 20 feet.  He said impossible for him to see us. Dennis:          So why did he go into the dive? Ed:                  Why did he go into the dive – that's the miracle of the angel coming for us, and that is the end of the fourth day.  Well, I've talked to Lieutenant Guinn [ph] at different times, and … Bob:                He was the pilot? Ed:                  He was the pilot, and he was flying out of Pulau, and he was flying a land-based plane, something like a B-20, a twin-engine plane, and as he was flying, he had left out that morning, and he had a problem with his antenna that kind of trails at the back of that aircraft.  And the stabilizer on that antenna had come off, and they had put something on, and he went out and tried it, and it didn't work.  They came back in, and then they put something on, and here they go again.                         So as he is flying over us, and here, as I mentioned, here he's coming just at a point that he could nearly dive right down to us, at that point he had gone back to the bomb bay door, and he'd opened the bomb bay door, and he was reeling in the antenna, and while he had that bomb bay door open, he looks down at a split-second there in the late afternoon of the fourth day, when the sun was setting on us late in the afternoon, and he saw the little mirror, so to speak, of the sun hitting on the oil on our clothing, and when he saw that, he thought it was a submarine down there. So immediately he rushes back to take over the controls, and the boys in the aircraft, they yelled back at him, with all that noise, you know, with the motors still revving up, you know, "What is it?  What is it?"  And he said, "Look down there."  And they looked down, and they could see the oil slick.  Well, my story is this – that we see him coming, and as if God had planned it for us, you know, here, when he gets to about a quarter of a mile from us, he heads down, and he comes down, and he circles us.  And as he circles us, then he tilts his wings a few times, you know, and then he leaves us.  He goes back up, and he circles us again up here. And we wondered, "Well, what in the world is he doing up there?"  Well, he can't land on the water, we knew that, but what he did, he came down, and he saw that there was someone down here.  He goes up, and he breaks radio silence to declare, "ducks on the pond."  He didn't know whether we were Japanese or American boys, but he broke radio silence to declare ducks on the pond.  And then he comes back down, then, and he circles us again.  He tilts his wings a time or two to give us assurance, you know, that we know you're there.  We don't know who you are, but we know you're there. And then he drops a life raft in, and in the meantime, then, he has radioed back into Pulau, and the next pilot, then, gets into a PBY that could land in the water, and Adrian March [ph], then, he's on his way, you know, to come and to pick us up.  And sometime later, then, he arrives, and in the meantime the raft that Guinn had dropped – I know, my friend McKissock, had made his way to the raft.  Then he's leaving it, and I wonder what's wrong.  And I get to the raft then, and it was bottom side up.  I try to get it turned over, managed to get it halfway turned over, but the CO2 on it was torn off, so I couldn't inflate it – no food, no water, no nothing – kind of a torn place in it, so it wouldn't even hold me just to stand on that, so to speak, hole in that pile of rubber. In the meantime, then McKissock had gotten far enough away from me that the PBY landed and had picked him up, and then I wondered, well, will he tell them that there's a Marine out there with him?  Well, he did, but it was a period of time that the plane seemingly – I couldn't see it, but he was running the swells – they were, like, 20-foot swells, and he'd run the swells back and forth trying to make his way over to me, and it took a period of time for him to run those to where he could get across, because if he had turned those props into the water, it would have flipped his plane.  And he pulled a no-no when he landed.  It was against all regulations for him to land his plane in the open sea, and yet he did, because as he landed he said he could see more sharks than he saw boys.  And we were scattered over, like, a 75-mile area, and he took reconnaissance of that and could see that there are boys in life rafts, there are boys on floater nets, and there are stragglers.  Then he actually saw shark attack on several boys, and he was determined that he was going to land, and he cleared it with the rest of the crew.  They all voted somewhat that they could take the punishment, but we've got to land. So they landed then and then finally then they came over me and through out a little life ring and picked me up.  I recall that as they got me out of the water, I blacked out or nearly blacked out.  I had no control over myself, and then they got me aboard the plane, then, and they would take me like a sack of feed and set the guy here, and the next guy just stack him against him, and they kept stacking us in there, and then finally it wouldn't hold anymore, and there were still some boys, stragglers out there, and it was getting dusk dark, and they picked up all that they could, all that they could find, and they actually fashioned them out on the wings, and then finally then sometime later in the night, the seas calmed down after night somewhat, and they shut off the motors, and we sat there and waiting until 12 or 1:00 or so in the morning when the little destroyer, Doyle, came in, and they picked us up. When I got aboard the plane, after a moment to board the plane, then I could look across at a Marine, and I could see that it was a blond-haired guy.  I could see he had the eyeballs that were just big red sores, and I knew it was Spooner, and I saw what he was doing.  He had a can of green beans, and he was feeling down on the deck of the ship, and he finally found a stud bolt or something down there, and he took that can of green beans, and he kept hacking away until he knocked a hole in the can of green beans and then he was turning that juice up and drinking it.  I recall saying to him, "Hey, Marine, how about some of your bean juice?" Well, you'd have to know Spooner, but he kind of told me where I could go, and … Dennis:          This is the guy that you saved his life by grabbing him by the life jackets on day 2, right? Ed:                  Yes.  Then I said to him, "Spooner, you don't know who this is.  This is Harrell."  Well, I didn't have to say any more.  He just kind of fell across the plane there toward me and kind of spilled some of his bean juice as he shared that with me.                         I was transferred, then, aboard the Doyle, and sometime that night, 1:00 or so that night. Dennis:          Ed, when he lunged across the floor of that plane to give you the bean juice, was that kind of an emotional – I can't even imagine.  I mean, he's alive, you're alive, it's what you'd said two days earlier.  You said, "You and I are going to get out of here." Ed:                  It was emotional for me as much as, I'm sure, for him – just to see that he made it, you know, because I didn't know anytime that fourth day – I knew not where Spooner might be.  And then to be able to see him there and see that he was alive, and I recognized him as soon as I looked across the plane and saw those eyes, I knew it was Spooner. Bob:                When you first heard that plane, when it started to dive and was tilting its wings at you, you thought, "We're going to be rescued?" Ed:                  Yes. Bob:                I would think you'd just weep. Ed:                  Well, you know, there's times when you weep, and there's times when you weep for joy.  I look back on this, and when I look at the – well, the first day that I had every assurance that somehow, some way, the Lord is going to see me through.  I felt that from the very moment that I went into the water.  And then the second day, when He provided the water for me … Bob:                … the rain shower … Ed:                  … you know, you have to just say "Thank you, Lord, I know that you are speaking to my heart and that somehow, some way, you're going to see me through."  And then on the third day, then, when the little raft came into the group, and you know that your life jacket no longer is holding your head out of the water, and now you have a spare life jacket that He provided for you, and you have to thank Him again.  And then sometime, then, the third afternoon, likewise, when you're starving still for water and for some food, and then for Him to provide half-rotten potatoes, you know, I have to thank, you know, He's still with me. And as I look back on that, you know, I think of the water of life.  You know, if you drink of this water, you're going to thirst again.  If you drink of that salt water, you're not going to make it at all.  But if you drink of the water that I give you, you'll never thirst again.  And then the bread of life, the potatoes that I had – and then when I get to the last day, the plane that came in, well, you know, it's like the Lord says, "Let not your hearts be troubled.  If you believe in God believe also in Me.  In My Father's house are many dwelling places.  I go to prepare a place for you, and since I go to prepare a place for you, I'm going to come again, and I'll receive you unto myself that where I am there you may be also."                         And so here He's coming, for me, at that time, He came for me in the person of Lieutenant Guinn as he came.  So I look back on the whole experience, and I think I have to say that it's a wonderful experience to have lived through, and I just praise and thank the Lord all the time for His mercy and and for His grace – unworthy as I am and yet He saw fit to spare my life through this ordeal. Bob:                You know, you mentioned that it was two years before you shared anything with your father.  We got a letter – you may remember this, Dennis, from a woman whose husband had passed on, and she said it wasn't until the last years of his life, some – almost 50 years after the battle had occurred – that she knew he'd been on Iwo Jima.  They'd gone their whole married life; she had never known that he was in that battle until near the end of his life.                         And I thought to myself as I read that, it was another way that he was protecting and defending by not sharing his story, and yet she wrote, and she said, "Knowing that sure explained some of the nights when he would wake up in terror."  Have you had that experience?  Have you had the nightmares and the terror of remembering some of that? Ed:                  I have not had nightmares.  I have had, many times that I've awakened and have a vivid scene of the happenings, and yet I think my counteraction to that is that "Thank you, Lord, for sparing my life and for bringing me through all of this," and I think maybe – I like to look at it, say that the Lord reminds me even today of those incidents.  And as He reminds me of those, then they help to strengthen my faith and my resolve to live a life for him today. Dennis:          You mentioned that pilot ended up finding 56 survivors on that fourth day.   Ed:                  Right. Dennis:          In total, there were 317 survivors.  How did the rest of them all get picked up? Ed:                  Well, as soon as they picked us up and found out that it was the Indianapolis, then all word went out.  They broke radio silence everywhere, and any ship within a couple of hundred miles or so; that is, a destroyer or something that could move fast, they came to the scene.  And when the USS Doyle, the ship that picked me up, when it got closer and closer, what did he do, Commander Claytor, he turned on his powerful spotlights up on the under part of the clouds, and you can imagine what that did to that whole area.  It was just like a mushroom with lights underneath the clouds.  And for the boys that were out there, they knew that rescue was there, and that gave them the hope that they needed.  And some of those had to go through another night.  It would be dangerous, you know, as dark as it was, to try to take some kind of a craft out there and maneuver around without hitting someone.  But that gave them hope through the night until the next morning.                         Now, I was picked up aboard the Doyle off the PBY.  I know, as they took me aboard, there was a couple of sailors that there's no qualms about them getting dirty or anything, and, of course, we were grease monkeys, really, with all that oil and all on us.  And I recall that they took my arms and put them around their neck, and they drug my feet, and they took me down below deck, and then they began to – they stripped off my clothing, and then they began to take something like a diesel fuel or kerosene, and they began to wash that oil off of me.  And then they had to be so careful with all of the saltwater ulcers that I had, and then they put me in – a Marine being put in Navy skivvies.  So they put their Navy underwear on me, and then … Bob:                You were okay with that, at that point? Ed:                  I was okay.  In fact, may I just say that I met the guy, after 57 years, I met the guy aboard the Doyle that actually cleaned me up, and he took me, then, to his bunk and gave me his bed, and then the corpsmen then came, and they had a cup of sugared water, warm sugared water, and they gave me a couple of tablespoons full or so of warm sugared water to kind of rehydrate me, I guess. Bob:                Did it taste pretty good? Ed:                  It tasted wonderful, it tasted wonderful. Bob:                Sixty years after this happened, how many of the survivors are still alive? Ed:                  A week or so ago, I got a report.  I think there was 97 of us still alive. Bob:                Spooner? Ed:                  Spooner's gone.  There's five of we Marines.  Nine of we marines survived out of – there were 39 of us aboard, and nine of us survived, and of the nine there are five of us still living today. Bob:                How about McKissock? Ed:                  No, McKissock's gone.  And, by the way, McKissock was not a believer at the time, and McKissock told me later, he said, "Harrell, I went home, and I got to look at all that the Lord had brought me through there," and he said, "I was a churchgoer.  I went to church all the time, but I was really not a believer."  And he said, "Finally, I just had to get down on my knees and thank the Lord and tell Him that I trusted Him as my Savior because I know that He had a purpose for my life."  And he became a real Christian friend of mine as long as he lived.  He passed away four years ago, maybe. Dennis:          Well, Ed, wow.  I'm exhausted from treading water here with you.  But I have to say, what a great story.  What a great story of faith and redemption, God's providential care, and how you have faithfully given Him the credit and the honor for doing that.  I'm grateful for your book and just pray that God will give you many great years of health and many more great-grandchildren, and I appreciate you being with us here on FamilyLife Today. Ed:                  Thank you so much, my delight, my pleasure to be with you. Bob:                And, you know, if any of our listeners this week have missed portions of this story, we've got our interview with Ed available on CD.  In fact, it's on two CDs, and we've been able to include on the CDs material that we weren't able to fit on the radio because of time constraints.                           We also have the book that you've written, Ed, which is called "Out of the Depths."  It tells the story of the sinking of the Indianapolis and of your rescue along with the rescue of the other sailors and Marines who were in the water 60 years ago this week.  Go to our website at FamilyLife.com if you're interested in getting a copy of Ed's book or the CDs of our discussion.                          At the bottom of your screen when you're on our website, FamilyLife.com, you'll see a little button that says "Go."  Click on that button, and it will take you to a page where there is more information on Ed's book, on other resources that we're recommending this week.  You can order online at FamilyLife.com, if you'd like, or you can call 1-800-FLTODAY and someone on our team can answer any questions you might have about these resources, or you can order over the phone as well.                         1-800-FLTODAY is the number.  The website, again, is FamilyLife.com, and let me encourage you, especially if you weren't able to hear the complete story, to contact us and get a copy of the book and the CDs as well.                         And then let me also ask you consider this month making a donation to FamilyLife Today.  We're a listener-supported program.  Your donations are what keep us on the air.  We are asking folks if, during the month of August, you could make a donation to help with our financial needs.  We'd like to send you a thank you gift.  A few months ago we had Shaunti Feldhahn in our studios, and we visited with her on a book that she's written called "For Women Only."  It's based on research that she has done with more than 1,000 men all across the country asking them about what they need most from their wives.                         This month we're going to make those available to you as a thank you gift when you make a donation of any amount to FamilyLife Today.  You can donate online at FamilyLife.com or you can call 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY to make your donation.  When you do, be sure to request the CDs for women, or if you're online, when the keycode box comes up, type in the two letters "CD," and we'll know that you'd like to have the Shaunti Feldhahn CDs sent to you.  And let me say thanks in advance for your support of this ministry.  It is much needed, and it is appreciated.                         Well, tomorrow we're going to talk about some very profound theological ideas that even a three-year-old can begin to catch onto.  We'll explain what we mean tomorrow.  I hope you can be back with us for that.                         I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.                          FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.  ________________________________________________________________ We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would   you consider donating today to help defray the costs?         Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved.       www.FamilyLife.com                             

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Resurrection Eggs: Creatively Sharing Christ Guest:                         Barbara Craft                                    From the series:       Resurrection Eggs: Creatively Sharing Christ (Day 1 of 1)  Bob: In 1994, a grandmother by the name of Barbara Craft heard about a way to use plastic Easter eggs to share the Easter story with friends, neighbors and children. She fell in love with the idea. Barbara: The idea that I like about this is you're getting the Bible in front of them—you're getting the Word of God. This is not just a story. We're using great things to tell a story. This is something—they may remember the donkey, the nails—but it's a way of engraving the Word on their heart and fulfilling Deuteronomy 6—you know, it says to talk about these things when you get up / when you're sitting in your house. This is, to me, what this project does. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, April 2nd. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We will hear some FamilyLife Today history today as we hear about the first time Barbara Craft shared with us the idea for what became Resurrection Eggs®. Stay tuned. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition. We have people who will pull us aside, from time to time; and they'll say to us: “You know who you guys ought to interview? You ought to have so-and-so as a guest on your program.” We often get some great recommendations from listeners who suggest someone that we ought to talk to. Dennis: We do. I agree. Bob: We try to dig and say: “Okay, what would our listeners be most interested in? What would be most helpful? What is the best kind of practical, biblical help we can give them related to marriage and family?”  I remember when somebody on our staff, more than 20 years ago, pulled me aside and said, “Do you know who you ought to interview?” And they told me about a grandma, who was on staff, here at FamilyLife. I have to confess to you, I thought, “Yeahhh, we're probably not going to do an interview with a grandma who's on staff.” You know? 2:00 Dennis: This is not just any grandma. This is Barbara Craft. She is a woman of the Word. She is a wife, a mom, a grandmother who has taken her role seriously. When she found out about a way to be able to bring the reality of Easter into her family—but also the families of her neighbors—she jumped all over it. Bob: This was a craft project she put together: —a basket full of plastic eggs—each one with a symbol of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. Dennis: There must have been 25 to 30 different eggs in the basket that she brought in. Bob: I just thought: “How are we going to talk about plastic eggs on a radio program? People can't see it. It's a nice idea—“ Dennis: Well, we always are interested in helping families have an outreach to others. Bob: And that's ultimately why we decided, “Let's go ahead and have Barbara on.” I remember thinking, in the back of my mind, “You know, if the interview doesn't go well, we don't have to use it.” Well, the interview went fine; didn't it? 3:00 Dennis: It went so well, in fact—just a little bit more to the story. I don't remember exactly how it occurred; but as we were interviewing her, it all made so much sense. Somehow, we put our heads together and said: “You know, we really can't put these eggs in a basket and ship them in the mail to listeners who want them. I would think people would like to have a dozen of these eggs of their own.”  We thought: “What if you took a carton and filled it full of these eggs—with the objects that are in them that tell the story of Easter—that help a mom and dad, grandma / grandpa, or help a young family share Christ in their neighborhood with the world's largest Easter egg party? What if we had something like that?” Well, we put together a few of them— Bob: We put together 3,000 sets. Dennis: Were you out there? Bob: I was not out there. Dennis: I was out there—at our kids' junior high cafeteria. We worked all Saturday. I prayed over those 3,000 sets—I said, “Lord, God, I pray these don't end up in our warehouse for the next 20 or 30 years.” 4:00 Bob: We were putting little donkeys into one egg, and putting coins in another egg. Dennis: A rock representing the stone that was put in front of Christ's grave in another, and then, of course, there was the easiest one to assemble of all—which had nothing in it. Bob: That's right, the empty egg which represents the tomb. And here's the thing—we did the 3,000 sets; and we also made available a list so, if anybody wanted to create their own set, they could just—“Here, you need to find a donkey, and you need to find a little pebble, you need to find the coins…” and all that. “Get your own plastic eggs.” Well, we had people calling us saying, “We want multiple sets of those.” Those 3,000 were gone like that! That first year, we wound up assembling an additional 7,000 to send out to our listeners. Dennis: And I'm going to tell our listeners—I was not there on the second Saturday they had to be assembled. In fact, I think we found someone—a bunch of teenagers to be able to—[Laughter] 5:00 Bob: [Laughter] You scheduled a weekend out of town when you heard that was happening, as I remember. Well, today, we thought it would be fun for our listeners to go back and hear that very first interview, from 20 years ago, when Barbara Craft—that grandmother who was on staff, here at FamilyLife—came into the studio and brought the very first Resurrection Eggs that we had ever seen. [Recorded Interview] Dennis: Our table is covered with eggs here. It's really quite festive here, Bob. Tell us: “What do all these eggs represent, Barbara?” and, “How did you come up with the idea of teaching about Easter through an object lesson like eggs?” Barbara: Well, I didn't come up with the idea. I'm not a creative-type person. I'm one that sees an idea and I can go with it. I was in our home, teaching ladies how to do a craft project—using paper bags and paper twists—and making this soft, frilly basket that you see in front of here now.  6:00 Well, we were making the baskets. One of the girls mentioned this story of telling the Easter story with eggs. I had never heard about it. The next thing I knew she sent me a paper. It had just some Scriptures and things that you can use and put inside a plastic egg and tell the Easter story. Right away, I started making baskets for my neighbors—making sets of eggs from this craft project, and putting them in there, and just giving them out to whomever I could. Dennis: And what you've done here—you've composed a list that starts with, really, Palm Sunday and objects associated with that. You've just followed, chronologically, all the events of Easter and the verses that accompany them. You've selected objects that illustrate each of those events. Let me just pull out one of these eggs here—this one here—[jingling sound]—three dimes. Okay, Barbara, what does that represent? 7:00 Barbara: Well, that represents the 30 pieces of silver that Judas betrayed Christ for. Dennis: And out, beside that, you've got Matthew 27:3-5 so the children—or for that matter, the adults—are getting the opportunity to go to the Scripture to really study the Easter story. Barbara: Yes. Bob: I bet kids would have a great time figuring out what each thing inside the egg represents. Barbara: I did it in a Sunday school class of three- and four-year-olds at our church. I hid the eggs, and then they came in. Of course, there's that adventure of finding the eggs. All the eggs have a number on them. Then, we sat around in a circle; and they would give me their egg, starting with number one. We would open it up, and then I would ask them what it was.  Again, this was three- and four-year-olds—they were so still. Of course, they are just so excited because they want to open their eggs. They want you to hurry up and get to theirs.  8:00 And then they wanted to hide them again. They wanted to do it again, and again, and the hour was gone. The idea that I like about this is—you're getting the Bible in front of them. You're getting the Word of God—this is not just a story. We're using great things to tell a story. It's a way of engraving the Word on their heart and fulfilling Deuteronomy 6—you know, it says to talk about these things when you get up / when you're sitting in your house. This is, to me, what this project does. Dennis: I think there is a great need today, in Christian families, to do more than just crack open this Book; but to get our kids diving into it afresh—discovering their own insights and talking about the relevance of these objects in their lives today. “What is the symbolism of the nails and the verse that goes along with that?”—Christ's death on the cross. We have hope because of this—and bringing that hope to our kids—and maybe even using these eggs as an opportunity to lead your kids to Christ. 9:00 Barbara: And then, when you come to this empty egg—and again, that representing that He is no longer in that tomb—and then telling them: “Where is He today? He is seated at the right hand of the Father.” Dennis: I think it is so easy to just assume our kids understand redemption: “What sent Jesus to the cross? Why did He have to die?” It was our sin—our breaking of God's law—our fallen nature that sent Christ to the cross—and really created a need for God to step out of eternity, in His Son, to redeem us back to Himself and to write our names in heaven. Barbara: What you have just done is what I'm hoping that this project will do. Having something like this that you can see and touch—it is fun, and it has a powerful message to each one. Dennis: It really does. Barbara Craft, you have helped us, today, to be able to focus on that message. 10:00 I want to thank you for doing that because we can make Easter a profoundly simple and yet powerful spiritual experience—not only for us—but for our children, as well, and pass on a legacy to the next generation. Barbara Rainey: One of the things that I think is neat about this is that there are different applications for using it. For instance, you could use it like an Advent wreath at Christmas—and use one egg per day or one object and verse per day—leading up to Easter. Or you could take the ones and just use them for the particular event the week of Easter, starting with the triumphal entry on the Sunday before. Then, you could use the objects that happened on the Thursday before Easter, and then the ones that illustrate what happened on Good Friday, and you could walk your way through Easter week.  I think that there are lots of different ways that a family could use this, depending on the ages of your children or how you wanted to celebrate Easter together. You could talk this through and try one one year and try another another year, and see what works best for your family.  11:00 Barbara: I think that is right—and if you have them all out—where they can see them during the day, and touch them, and play with them, or whatever they're going to do with this—then, again, they're reminded of the Scripture: “What does this sword represent, to me, about Easter?” Or you could do that sometime during the day—again, asking, “Well, what do you remember about that sword we talked about three days ago?” It's just that continual remembering and reminding that we're so often told to do in Scripture. We don't remember it the first time. Barbara Rainey: Right. Bob: During the Easter season, a family could use these eggs to really spark their family devotions, whether it's at breakfast every morning—having a different egg on the table and opening it up, talking about what's in there, reading the Scripture. Maybe, at dinner or after dinner—go in the living room and have it—but it would just be a great way to give children a visual connection with the story so they're not just hearing it told; but they're seeing it with the symbols, right there, before them. Barbara: Maybe, you could hide the egg. There's always that—children love that element of seeking and finding. So, maybe— 12:00 Dennis: What do you mean—“children”?  [Laughter] I love to go on scavenger hunts. Barbara: Yes, I do, too. I do, too. You can hide an egg someplace; and whoever finds it that day could tell the story—that evening, at dinner. They could tell the Scripture that's with that. There's just a variety—I love hearing this creativity. That's what I am just hoping is going to come about as a result of this. [Studio] Bob: Well, we've been back in the archives, listening to a program recorded more than 20 years ago. Dennis: With a friend—a dear, dear beloved friend, Barbara Craft. Bob: It's good to hear her voice; isn't it? Dennis: It is. It is, and she couldn't have fathomed that this would go on to see more than 1.5 million dozen of these eggs distributed, all the way around the world. Bob: If she could have fathomed that, she would have come in and said, “Let me show you my copyrighted Resurrection Eggs.” [Laughter] Dennis: No, I don't think she would have. Barbara was all about outreach—wanting to share Christ with people. Bob: She was. Dennis: That's what prompted her in the first place.  13:00 Not long after we had Barbara here in the studio, we made a phone call to another grandmother. This grandmother may have been interested in sharing the eggs with her grandchildren; but it ended up sounding, to me, like that she was really excited about sharing them with her adult children. Bob: Yes. Her name is Cindy. She's a friend of Barbara Craft's. Barbara had shared the idea with her. So, we called her and said, “Tell us what you thought about the Resurrection Eggs.” [Recorded Interview] Cindy: When Barbara asked me if I would like these, I thought, “This is kind of hokey, but I like the idea.” And she had gone to so much trouble. So, I took them; and then, after I had them—when Easter came, I thought, “This is how I can do something in the center of my table after we come home from lunch.” I just decorated the table with them, and they didn't ask too many questions about it. When it was over, I just said, “We have a game we're going to play.”  14:00 I said: “The eggs all have numbers on them. As you turn them up, we need to try to decide, whatever is in the egg: ‘What does that represent that has to do with the biblical account of Jesus' resurrection?'” I was amazed at how they enjoyed it. They had a great time with it. So, that is something that— I know now I can have on my table every Easter, and it won't make any difference. It will be wonderful now when the little ones can come and participate. But no, I used it with adult children. And they didn't know what all of them were. It took a little while; but even one of my children—that is not so much in church now, but very well-trained—he enjoyed that. I thought, “That is not cramming it down their throat.” Bob: Yes. Dennis: Cindy, I want to thank you for being on FamilyLife Today and sharing your story with us. Cindy: You're quite welcome. Bye-bye. 15:00 [Studio] Bob: That's a phone call we made 20 years ago to a grandma who was using Resurrection Eggs—not with her grandchildren—but with her adult children. Just in case listeners were wondering, the other voice they heard there was a young Dennis Rainey. [Laughter] Dennis: It did sound a lot younger; didn't it? [Laughter] There's another phone call we made to Leah. She had three daughters that she wanted to share the story of Easter with. Bob: And this became a tradition for her family. [Recorded Interview] Leah: I've been just mesmerized; and to this day, we've done it for probably four years—it's kind of a tradition. Bob: Now, how old were the girls the first time y'all did this? Leah: Probably two, four, and six. Bob: Do you do it on Easter? Leah: No, we kind of use the week before Easter to prepare our hearts to worship the risen Lord on Sunday. So, it's not just Sunday that we worship on and observe Easter. Dennis: Leah, how do you involve your husband, Gene, in the process of sharing the eggs with your children? 16:00 Leah: Well, one thing that is really neat to do is Gene will hide the eggs in a certain room, and have the children find the eggs. That way, it makes the story of Jesus' resurrection a treasure to find. If they find the eggs, that's their reward—the Word of God is their reward. It's just a very creative way to share the Easter story with children because they love to see what's inside of something. In one of the eggs is a nail. You read to your child about how they nailed Jesus to the cross. They would take that—and I remember my five-year-old—her face. She went, “Whoa, Mommy!” to see a nail. Then, they would place it on their hands—on the inside of their little palms—just to see what that felt like. [Emotion in voice]  17:00 I think that the nail is the most powerful item in the eggs—that visual that you can hold in your hand. You can feel it and to see it. It's very powerful. I think that it just brings it home, and it brings the understanding to a deeper level for a child. Bob: I want to talk to your kids. Leah: Oh, you do. Okay. Bob: Yes. Why don't we start with Rebekah? Rebekah: Hello? Bob: Hi, Rebekah. How are you? Rebekah: Fine, thank you. How are you? Bob: I'm fine. Listen, we wanted to talk to you. You know the special Easter eggs that your mommy has? Rebekah: Yes. Bob: Tell me what they are. Rebekah: Well, there are ten eggs, and they all tell the story. There will be a little paragraph that she says—that's a Bible verse. Then, we'll take turns reading it. One would be—it'd say, “He died on the cross,” and there'd be a wooden cross, or “Feed my sheep,” and there'd be a little lamb. Bob: Yes. Dennis: Rebekah, this is Mr. Rainey. Do you really like going through those eggs? 18:00 Rebekah: Yes! Bob: Can we talk to Rachel? Rebekah: Sure; one moment. Rachel: Hello? Dennis: Rachel. Rachel: Yes. Dennis: This is Mr. Rainey. How are you doing today? Rachel: Fine. Dennis: Your mom did something last Easter with some eggs. Do you remember that? Rachel: Yes. Dennis: Tell us about them. What do you do with those eggs? Rachel: Well, she'll read a verse, and we'll open it up, and see what's inside. Dennis: Like, what will be inside? Rachel: Like the cross where Jesus died, and like the empty egg. Dennis: Do you really like to do that? Rachel: Yes. Dennis: Why? Rachel: It's fun. Bob: Does it get boring when your parents bring out those eggs, or do you like it? Rachel: I like it. Bob: But, don't they make you sit down and listen? Rachel: Yes. Bob: But that's okay? Rachel: Yes! Bob: Tell you what. Can we talk to Sarah? Rachel: Sure. Bob: Okay, thanks. Sarah: Hello? Bob: Hi, Sarah? Sarah: Hi. Bob: How are you? Sarah: Fine. Bob: Are you? Do you know Mr. Rainey? Sarah: Yes. 19:00 Bob: Do you? Okay. Dennis: Hi, Sarah. This is Mr. Rainey. Do you remember the Easter eggs that your mom uses every year? Sarah: Yes, sir. Dennis: Do you like them? Sarah: Yes, sir. Dennis: Why do you like them? Sarah: Because they're fun to open. Bob: What kinds of things does she put in those eggs? Sarah: Money, the cross, a nail, the empty egg. Bob: You remember a lot of them. Sarah, can we talk to your mommy again? Sarah: Okay. Bob: Thanks. Dennis: Bye-bye. Leah: Hello? Bob: We'll probably have some listeners who will think about doing this with their kids at Easter time. Would you encourage them to? Leah: I really would! It's just such a simple but impactful way to share the Easter story—a creative way / a different way. Dennis: Well, Leah—thanks for being on the broadcast. Leah: Oh, sure. Bye-bye. [Studio] Bob: Well, again, it's fun to go back and listen to some of the early phone calls we made when we were first talking to moms about the idea of a set of eggs that they could use during Easter week to tell their children the story of the resurrection. 20:00 Dennis: It worked back then, and it's working today. We just decided we would take the resource and re-release it with a 20th Anniversary Edition. I think what was already excellent, and outstanding, and a whole lot of fun has really been moved up a notch. It's cool because the booklet that goes with the eggs is available both in English and Spanish. Bob: In fact, look at the back of your carton there—Resurrection Eggs—can you read what it says there on the back? Dennis: Not upside down. Bob: Look. Read that out loud to our listeners. Dennis: Are you talking about the English, of course; aren't you? Bob: Huevitos de Resurreccion™—so Resurrection Eggs. The carton comes with both English and Spanish so that listeners can use it in either setting. Dennis: Bob is flaunting two things there—one, his experience from San Antonio— Bob: Huevitos. 21:00 Dennis: There you go; and secondly, he's also reminding me of my Spanish and the grade I received. Bob: What grade did you get in Spanish? [Laughter] Dennis: It was in eighth grade—that was the year. Gratefully, they did pass me on to the ninth grade—but not because I excelled in the language of Spanish. Bob: I don't think you've said the grade yet. What was that grade that you got? Dennis: It was south of “D.” [Laughter] Bob: We, of course, have Resurrection Eggs in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. Our listeners can go, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com to order a set of these eggs to use, this year, at Easter time. Or if you live near a Christian bookstore, many Christian bookstores have Resurrection Eggs. I know Family Christian Store has them—I think Lifeway and Mardel have them. There are even Walmart®s, across America, that have Resurrection Eggs this year at Easter—just a great tool to use to share the story of Easter with children, with neighbors, with relatives.  22:00 Find out more. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the link that says, “Go Deeper,” at the top left-hand corner of the page. The information about Resurrection Eggs is available right there. You can order from us online. There is also information about the resources Barbara Rainey has been creating that can be used at Easter time to, not only share the story of Easter, but to beautifully decorate your home for the holiday, as well. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the link that says, “Go Deeper,” at the top left-hand corner of the page. There is information about these resources there. You can order from us, online; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY; 1-800-358-6329; that's 1-800- “F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then, the word, “TODAY.” Now, let me say a special word of thanks to those of you who are regular listeners to FamilyLife Today and have listened long enough to know that what we're all about, as a ministry, resonates with what you believe, as a family.  23:00 We are here to provide practical biblical help for your marriage and your family. We believe that if we can effectively develop godly families, those godly families can change the world, one home at a time. And we appreciate those of you who share in that mission and who help support the mission through your prayers and your financial contributions. If you can help us with a donation right now, we'd like to send you, as a thank-you gift, a set of three prayer cards—one that will give you specifics on how to pray more effectively for your husband, another card on how to pray for your wife, and then a third card for the two of you to use together to pray for your children. These are our way of saying: “Thank you for your support of the ministry. We really do appreciate your partnership.” Simply go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the button in the upper right-hand corner of the screen that says, “I Care.” You can make an online contribution; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY—1-800-358-6329. Make a donation over the phone, and ask for the prayer cards when you do that. 24:00 Or request the prayer cards and mail a check to FamilyLife Today at P O Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. Tomorrow, we'll hear more from people who have used Resurrection Eggs as a way to share the news of Easter with friends and family members. We'll talk more about that tomorrow. I hope you can join us. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2014 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

Messy Grace (Part 1) - Kaleb KaltenbachMessy Grace (Part 2) - Kaleb KaltenbachMessy Grace (Part 3) - Kaleb KaltenbachFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Embracing the Truth Guest:                         Caleb Kaltenbach                            From the series:       Messy Grace (Day 2 of 3)   Bob: How ought we live, as followers of Jesus, in a culture that is moving away from a biblical foundation for life? Caleb Kaltenbach says Jesus demonstrated what life looks like, full of grace and truth. Caleb: I think another way to say it is that there is a big difference between acceptance and approval. I think that we have to understand that, not just with the LGBT community, but we are moving into a culture where people go with whatever they want to do. There are going to be new things that come out that just really scare Christians, and we don't know how to handle it. We think: “Okay; do I keep my relationship with this person? Do I not?”  It's not just the LGBT issue; there are so many issues that are going to come down the pipeline. We have to understand that we are missionaries, and there is a difference between acceptance and approval; and there's a tension between grace and truth. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, July 3rd. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  1:00 If you've found that life is getting harder to navigate, as a follower of Christ, we'll see if we can help with some directions today. Stay with us. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. You know, years ago, there was a lot of controversy around a children's book that had found its way into libraries. I think it was called Heather Has Two Mommies. It was a children's book designed to provide a picture of normalization for a child who might be growing up in a household where there were two mommies or two daddies, trying to present that as maybe a new normal. We have somebody with us today for whom that was the normal, growing up in a home with two mommies part of the time and with a bachelor dad the other part of the time. Dennis: Yes; and Caleb, I just want to say, “Thanks for being on our broadcast and sharing your story.”  2:00 Caleb Kaltenbach joins us again on FamilyLife Today. Caleb, welcome back. Caleb: It's great to be back. Dennis: He's written a book called Messy Grace: How a Pastor with Gay Parents Learned to Love Others Without Sacrificing Conviction. The reason I just appreciate you being on the show, talking about this, is I think there are a lot of people, like me, who may not have a lot of gay friends; or if we do, we don't know it. We need coaching / we need understanding. We need someone to take us near and begin the journey for us. I feel like your book did that for me. I really liked being able to peer into your family, where you were raised by two moms and your dad, who later came out as a homosexual as well. You were raised in the midst of no faith / no Christian worldview. I think we're clueless! 3:00 Really, the Christian community's not really wise about who our audience is, and where they are, and where they aren't. Caleb: No; absolutely. I think that we have come to a point in our nation where we have to realize that we are the away team. We are not the home team anymore. We realize that more than ever at our church. We firmly believe in the inerrancy of Scripture / we believe in God's sovereignty—we believe in all these things—but we're all very intentional in being missionaries in our context / missionaries in Southern California and understanding, as we talked about earlier, that not everybody is at the same point in the spiritual journey.  We just surveyed our church three weeks ago and found out that 42 percent of our attendants, on any given Sunday, is unchurched—meaning that we're the first church they've been to or they haven't been since they were a kid—because we're so intentional about going after the lost sheep that Jesus talks about in Luke 15:1-7. But we do that without compromising the gospel and the message; because we have to learn where we are, and we have to understand—  4:00 —I think, specifically with this issue, or any other issue that we're dealing with—that there's a huge tension between grace and truth.  I think another way to say it is that there is a big difference between acceptance and approval. I think that we have to understand that, not just with the LGBT community, but we are moving into a culture where people go with whatever they want to do. There are going to be new things that come out that just really scare Christians, and we don't know how to handle it. We think: “Okay; do I keep my relationship with this person? Do I not?”  It's not just the LGBT issue; there are so many issues that are going to come down the pipeline. We have to understand that we are missionaries, and there is a difference between acceptance and approval; and there is a tension between grace and truth. Bob: You've already shared with us that your impression of Christians, growing up, was that they were bigoted/hateful. When you were with your mom, Christians would mock, and would shout, and would be hateful toward your mom.  5:00 Less so with your dad, because he wasn't out of the closet at this point; but your dominant thought was, “Christians are just not worth much.” You wound up at a Bible study in high school, and you went into that Bible study with the intent of wanting to undermine everything that was being taught there. Over time, something shifted in your heart and your thinking. Caleb: Yes; because I saw that Jesus was not representative of how people on the street corners were acting. I think today we would say Jesus is not representative of how some Christians act on Facebook®, social media, or Twitter®, Snapchat, Periscope, or whatever—that Jesus is not reflective of that. When I think about the people who are on the street corners, I think to myself, “What about what Paul said in Romans 2:4, when he says, ‘Don't you know that it is the kindness of God that leads to repentance?' What about what Paul said in Romans 12:18: ‘Live at peace with everyone'?” That doesn't mean that we agree with everybody, but that means that we're not going to belittle people.  6:00 What about what Jesus said in Matthew 5:43-48?—you know: “…love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you”—and by the way—“if you only love those who love you, what reward are you going to get?”  I look at the people on the street corners, and really, in my life too—for me, messy grace is ultra-legalistic, fundamentalist Christians. You know, that's my version of messy grace that I have to love and be mindful about. Am I exemplifying what Paul says in Romans 2 and 12? Am I exemplifying what Jesus says: “If you only love those who love you, what reward will you get?” Dennis: I'm glad I had a man in my life who called me to love / he called me to truth too; but he said: “The preeminence of love—it is the banner of being a disciple of Jesus Christ. Yes; we do stand for the truth.” I'll tell you why that was important in my life, Caleb. You can comment on this, because you've undoubtedly run into quite a few guys like me.  I think I, like a lot of other Christians, have a high need to be right. I don't think we have a high need to make sure we're loving.  7:00 That, for me, has helped me move from pressing the point of the gospel—which is the truth / it is right—but it's pressed me back to going, “How do I show love to other people who are broken?” We're all broken—not just them—I am too.  I think, for the most part, we in the Christian community really don't know how to love people who aren't like us, and who don't love us, and who don't think like us and believe like us. Caleb: I think the reason is that it is much easier to make a point / it is much harder to love somebody. When you make a point, you can be right. The woman caught in adultery in John, Chapter 8—and the Pharisees and the teachers of the Law, who placed her before Jesus after humiliating her, they did not care about her life—restoring her/reconciliation. They were willing for her to die for them to be right. In other words, they believed that their theological conviction was a catalyst to allow them to mistreat other people.  8:00 Our theological convictions must never be catalysts to mistreat others. If anything, our theology should drive us to love people and treat them well.  I think about Jesus, and here's what Jesus did—here's what Jesus did—Jesus called the disciples into a discipleship relationship before they even believed He was the Son of God. I'm willing to bet—I don't know, but I'm willing to bet—that Matthew was not a good synagogue-going boy, in Matthew 9; and yet Jesus still looked at him, despite all that, and said: “Hey, you're coming with Me. Follow Me. I want you to be a part of what I'm doing.” Jesus regularly spent time with people, and here's where I think He models the difference between acceptance and approval. Jesus loved people where they were / Jesus loved them for who they were, but Jesus was not content to leave them where they were. He said, “God has something greater embedded in you that only His sovereignty can bring out.” I think about that and I think to myself: “We need to do the same thing.  9:00 “We have to love people where they're at.” That doesn't mean we approve of every life choice that somebody makes. Dennis: Right; right. Bob: You began to get a picture of who the real Jesus was as you were going to this Bible study in high school; but it had to dawn on you pretty quickly that, if this was true and if you were going to buy into this idea that the Jesus presented in the Bible is who He says He is—that He's God / that Christianity is true—that's going to put you at odds with your mom, with your dad, with your mom's partner. This is going to turn your whole world upside down. Caleb: Absolutely. I spent so much time studying what the Bible had to say about marriage relationships, gender, sexuality, intimacy—everything. I came to this conclusion, the one that I still hold today, that God designed sexual intimacy for the expression in marriage between one man and one woman—I believe that today. I believe anything outside of that is a sin.  10:00 That it is between a man and a woman in marriage—that's what God designed intimacy for.  Now, I also believe, to reinforce what I said earlier, that our biblical beliefs should not allow us to berate anyone. Our biblical beliefs should build us up to the point, where we are willing to love people; because the more that we love God, He gives us margin to love people who seem to be unlovable to us. I think the real mark of Christian maturity is: “How well can you love those whom you disagree with, don't like / don't like you, are difficult, or are just plain different than you are?” Bob: I'm trying to imagine you coming to this conclusion / this understanding of what the Bible has to say about gender, and marriage, and sexuality, and going back to your mom and having the conversation—or to your dad—and saying, “You know, I've come to believe something different.” Caleb: Imagine how a young teenager, who is gay or same-sex attracted, feels when they come out to their conservative Christian parents.  11:00 I was a 16-year-old teenager coming out as a Christian to my three gay parents. You would expect love and tolerance; because that's what my mother, and her partner, and my dad, in his own way, always preached. But I got the opposite—they kicked me out.  I went back, eventually, kind of slowly built up that relationship. Again, I realized that the more I loved God, the more margin He gave me to love people who were difficult in my life—I had to forgive. Bob: That love was tested; because as you attended the Bible study, you decided to go to church. You went to your dad's church, and that turned out to be a bit of a surprise to you as well. Caleb: Yes; I went to my dad's church and—you know, I'd gone off and on. They really didn't teach the Bible.  Then I got invited by a friend of mine, who was a Christian, and his dad was a pastor at a church. I got invited to go to his church. I went, and I found Jesus was preached and talked about much differently.  12:00 I found a group of individuals who firmly believed what Jesus said and what Scripture claimed, but also believed that that should never compromise our love for other people. We can't compromise conviction or love whatsoever. I remember being in this group and seeing them and thinking to myself, “This is something I could get onboard with.” God just began to develop in me this passion to be able to tell people about the Jesus I discovered. Bob: I want you to take me, if you can / if you remember it, to the first conversation you had with your mom or with your dad, where you said, “I've started to change my thinking.” Caleb: My dad told me that I had spit in the eyes of God, because he had me baptized Episcopalian/Anglican when I was a kid/baby. I remember, when I told him, he was so reactionary and angry. I didn't understand why then. I know now—because he was in the closet, and he was hiding it.  13:00 When I told my mom, on the other hand—I mean, my mom—I love her to death; but drama, drama, drama. My mom—we were driving from Concordia, Missouri—that's where my parents would meet / in Concordia, Missouri, at McDonald's® in between Columbia and Kansas City—my dad dropped me off and looked at my mom and said: “Well, good luck, Mary Lou. You're going to love this.”  I got in and I told my mom. She started crying—just crying, crying, crying. My mom, when we got home, went in; and I stayed in the car, because I didn't want to go in yet. I waited about 15 minutes, and she told Vera by then. As I said, Vera didn't get along with me / I didn't get along with her. She was a PhD psychologist, who had a very liberal view, not only on psychology but on everything. I sat down; and I remember she asked me, “So you're a Christian now, Caleb?” I said, “Yes.”  14:00 It was just very contentious—again, to the point where my mom said, “Hey, you're not going to come back for a while,”—basically kicked me out. My dad had told me the same thing at his house, and it was very difficult. Bob: So you called friends and said, “Can I crash at your house?” Caleb: Yes! Dennis: You were 16? Caleb: Yes. Dennis: Not long after that, someone invited you to a Youth for Christ conference? Caleb: Youth for Christ, also known as CIY, Christ in Youth. It was a great conference, but I had never been to a Christian conference. It was so great being with other high schoolers, who were my own age, and getting to know them.  I remember, again, one morning, I woke up and I just couldn't imagine myself doing anything else other than telling other people about this Jesus whom I had learned about. I mean, I figured I had lived 16 years of my life away from Jesus / I want to spend the rest of my life telling other people about Jesus and saying, again: “He's not like the people on the street corners!”  A week to the day that I was baptized, I said, “I want to give my life to full-time Christian vocational ministry.” Bob: A week after you were baptized? Caleb: Yes. 15:00 Bob: Okay; there are folks, who are listening, who are going: “Well, there's a pattern here. I mean, this guy grows up and he has two moms. One of them doesn't like him and doesn't like men in general, and his dad's in the closet. He's just looking for a way out of the trauma that he's been in for 16 years. He's easy pickings for this kind of stuff.” Caleb: But it wasn't trauma for me. I didn't want people to know about my mom. Dennis: It was your normal. Caleb: It was my normal! Absolutely! I knew—it was different enough, where I didn't want to broadcast it in the school—but in no way, shape, or form was I walking around saying, “Woe is me.” I'll be honest—my mom and her friends were fun. They were fun people to be around! There were some things that I saw that I shouldn't have seen; but back in my day, when I would go to somebody's house for a house party with my mom, I would take my Atari®, or Commodore 64, or Nintendo® / original Nintendo Duck Hunt™, and I would go find a room.  16:00 I still saw things that were inappropriate, but I did not have this—at that point—this scarred idea of my life. It wasn't until after I saw Jesus, and how He set things up, and how He originally created things to be until Adam and Eve rebelled / until sin entered the world, that I realized, at that point: “This was not right. This is not how God designed—this is not God's best. You cannot have a reflection of Christ's relationship with the church in any relationship other than a heterosexual relationship.” I mean, I realized so many things. And if there's ever—listen, if there's ever anybody who wanted to disprove, you know, what the Bible said about sexuality, it was me!  I mean, even after I changed my view on sexuality, if somebody brought up a new idea, I would still look at it; because my relationship with my parents was damaged. Why would I go from an environment where I had absolute peace with my parents to now an environment where there was chaos? 17:00 Bob: Let me ask you about that; because in the last five years, there have been books published presenting an evangelical view that maybe we've misunderstood all the texts that you were reading in high school. They say it's possible to be gay and to believe the Bible and to love Jesus. You've seen those books. You've read those books; right? Caleb: Oh, absolutely. Here's what these books do—they have no exegetical or historical ground to stand on. They have to do fancy exegetical footwork / they have to do fancy footwork with a background narrative and the backgrounds of the New Testament, especially with Romans 1 and so on and so forth.  They have to do an argument of silence, where they say something like, “Hey, Jesus never said anything about same-sex relationships, so that makes it okay.” Well, there are a lot of things that Jesus didn't say anything about, so “Let me get my list ready,”—you can't make that argument. I remember, after I came to Christ, having a conversation with a lady who was a dean at a liberal seminary in Kansas City.  18:00 My mom “sicced” her on me at one of her GLAD events. I still went with my mom when I was a high schooler / when I was a Christian, because I wanted an opportunity to tell people about Jesus in different conversations. She [the dean] automatically started challenging me. It really came down to the fact, where she said: “Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. So that makes it okay.”  Now, we look at it—and you can even get very academic if you want—and say: “Well, Jesus was sent to Israel. In Israel, under a Pharisaical rule, they did not deal with homosexuality like Paul did when he was sent to the Gentiles / to the Roman Empire.” That's another whole ball of wax. If you really want to get exegetical, let's look at Matthew 19, when Jesus has an opportunity to define marriage as anything other than a man and a woman; and does he? No; He affirms what God says in Genesis 2. 19:00 Dennis: So, here you are. You're this on-fire 16-year-old, who now has been baptized. You've been to a conference and surrendered to God's call on your life to move into full-time Christian ministry. I can only imagine—when you went back to Columbia— Bob: Yes—how that news went; yes. Dennis: —and back to where your two moms lived in Kansas City, how did those conversations go down? Caleb: Well, it went down just about like a lead balloon would. Have you ever ridden a lead balloon before? Bob: Just crashed. Caleb: It crashed. It wouldn't get up off the air. I mean, I had committed the unpardonable sin; right? Bob: Becoming a Christian's one thing / now, saying, “I want to be a pastor.” Dennis: “I'm all in.” Caleb: Well, and you throw on top of that, “Hey, I've changed my view of sexuality.” Bob: Right. Caleb: You know—I mean, now I'm one of them in their eyes. The people who were supposed to show me tolerance—they were showing my anything but tolerance. Dennis: How did you do, loving your mom in that situation? Caleb: It was difficult at first; but I got encouragement from my friends, saying, “Caleb, you need to love her no matter what.” I started reading the New Testament.  20:00 Whenever I had free time, I was reading, reading, reading, reading—especially the words of Jesus—and then moving on to Romans, so on and so forth. I really latched onto what Jesus said there and the mercy that He said, even in the beatitudes, when Jesus said, “Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.” I cannot own how my mother treats me / I cannot own how somebody else reacts to me—what I can own is my own reactions—how I respond and what I do. That is what God holds me accountable to. I can own how I'm going to love people, no matter what / follow the example of Jesus, when He was hanging on the cross and He said: “Father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing.” Now, if the Son of God, who is innocent, could say that, after everything He was through, I'm pretty sure I could look at my mom and say: “I forgive you. I'm choosing every day not to hold this against you.” Dennis: I think you're ministering to some parents, who have children, who've come out and who have said, “I think I'm gay.”  21:00 I think you're also ministering to some family members, who may have been invited to a wedding of a relative in their family, where they're struggling with, “What's our response to be?” I think you're also ministering to folks, Caleb, who work in places, where they have close associates, whose lifestyles are different than theirs. You're exhorting all of us, regardless, to go back to the Book / back to the life of Christ and love others the way He loved us. Bob: Well, and I think your example helps there, too, and what you've shared with us of your own story, and what you share in your book, Messy Grace. I think that gives us a blueprint / a living illustration that we can follow and know how to engage with our friends or our family members. We have copies of Caleb's book, Messy Grace, in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can go online to request your copy; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to order a copy of the book, Messy Grace.  22:00 Again, the website: FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” I know we probably have some of you, who are tuned in today because this is a holiday week for a lot of folks—people taking time off—and maybe some of you, who don't normally listen to FamilyLife Today, have been able to catch the program. We're glad that you joined us.  FamilyLife® is a non-profit organization. We exist to effectively develop godly marriages and families. We believe those godly marriages and families can change the world, one home at a time. This daily radio program is just one aspect of all that we do, here, at FamilyLife. All that we do, here, at FamilyLife is possible because friends, like you, make it possible. We are listener-supported; and your donations help cover, not only the cost of producing and syndicating this program, but all of the outreaches of FamilyLife. All that we're involved with couldn't happen without your support.  23:00 If you're a regular listener, and you've never made a donation, we'd love to have you join the team that supports this ministry. If you're a first-time listener, or a new listener, we hope you'll continue to tune in; and you can download the FamilyLife app from your app store. Just type in FamilyLife as one word and that will give you immediate access to our program every day, so you can listen to it on your time schedule. To donate, go to FamilyLifeToday.com—you can donate online—or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation over the phone. You can always mail your donation to us as well. Our address is FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. By the way, let me just say we believe that your first priority, when it comes to giving, needs to be your local church; so make sure that you're investing well there before you do anything to help support this ministry. 24:00 We hope you can join us back tomorrow when Caleb Kaltenbach will be here again. We're going to talk about how we should interact with friends, coworkers, neighbors—people who we know who identify as LGBT. How do we let them know who we are, and what we believe, and how do we build a relationship there? We'll talk about that tomorrow. I hope you can tune in. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com  

To find out more about the Wisconsin Great River Road please check out the website www.WiGRR.comIrishfest- https://www.irishfestlacrosse.orgRiverfest- https://riverfestlacrosse.comRotary Lights- https://www.rotarylights.orgCountry Boom- https://www.countryboom.comBob: I’ve lived in La Crosse since 1992, and I’ve had the opportunity to do a lot of different things. One of the persons I’m pleased to know is Mr. Festival. Those of you who don’t know who Mr. Festival is, it’s Pat Stephens. Pat is involved in everything – well, almost everything. Pat, thanks for being on with us this month for the Great River Road Podcast. Tell me about some of the things you’re involved in.Pat: Well, in the summer months, of course, you have Riverfest, which is right on the Mississippi River in Riverside Park in La Crosse. It’s always a huge success [and] a lot of fun – [it’s] a great family festival as well. That’s followed just a couple weeks later with Country Boom that’s held at Maple Grove Country Club just outside of La Crosse. That’s growing significantly. [There are] probably 20,000 to 25,000 people in attendance out there. It’s a great country [music] fest. We get into August, and then we’ve got Irishfest. It’s a little bit better and more improved each and every year, so that keeps us busy. Oktoberfest comes around at the end of September, then we take a little break as we get into Rotary Lights, [which is] the largest holiday display in the Midwest. It starts the day after Thanksgiving. There’s never a dull moment.Bob: I was going to say, what do you do in your spare time, Pat? Is there such a thing as spare time when it comes to being Pat Stephens?Pat: Not really, because beyond the festivals there’s a whole host of other community things that I try to take a leadership role with as well, so there’s never a dull moment.Bob: How did you get involved with helping out the community?Pat: I think it all started back in high school. I was very active and involved in all sorts of clubs and organizations, and [I was] class president and all those sorts of things. When I got to the University of [Wisconsin]-La Crosse as a student, I immediately got involved with one of the social fraternities, Delta Sigma Phi. We got extremely involved with things on campus, with student government, with getting a fraternity house and putting on a couple concerts on campus as well. It just kind of carried over after we graduated so we could continue that involvement.Bob: What do you like best about living on the Wisconsin Great River Road?Pat: Oh, my goodness. I drove back from the Twin Cities yesterday and took the Great River Road on the Wisconsin side. When we went up for the weekend, we went on the Minnesota side, which is also very beautiful. I had my two older sisters with me in the car, and they had never been on the Great River Road while in the Milwaukee area, so they just tremendously enjoyed it. We stopped in a lot of the small towns. The people are friendly. The architecture that some of those towns have maintained is simply beautiful. The water is always something to watch. They were so fascinated with the barge traffic, which they had never seen, either. You just kind of take it for granted as a daily activity.Bob: Let’s kind of look at that a little bit, because I think a lot of people that don’t live in this beautiful area where we live don’t tend to know what they’re missing.Pat: There is nothing like it. I enjoy driving people who come to La Crosse for the first time. It’s amazing how many people on the east side of the state have never discovered Wisconsin’s western coast. They get over here, and generally they’re in awe of the bluffs, the river, [and] the beautiful forests that we have. And of course, we have all sorts of amenities in our areas using the rivers: canoeing, kayaking, the bike trails, the hiking trails. There’s a lot to offer over here. That’s why we call it home.Bob: How do people get involved in some of the festivals that you’re involved in as Mr. Festival?Pat: Usually your ambassadors, your current volunteers are your best recruiters. They have the best networking to get friends and family involved. It’s something that they themselves enjoy. In addition to that, of course, all of the festivals have websites. And I think to my knowledge, all of the websites have a place to put comments if you’d like to volunteer and help with a particular cause.

To find out more about the Wisconsin Great River Road please check out the website www.WiGRR.com to find out about Elmaro Vineyard check out http://elmarovineyard.com/Lynita Delaney: The name is Elmaro Vineyard, but I don’t care what they call us. It doesn’t matter to me. It’s like holding a wine glass. Do I care if somebody holds the bowl with the wine glass? Uh-uh. That’s up to them how they want to hold the wine glass, and it’s up to them what they want to call us. We’re getting to be [where] more folks just say ‘Elmaro,’ and they’ll know where it is and that’s good. It’s like Kleenex for facial tissues – it’s a good thing. One of the things we’ve always talked about is letting people feel special for a day, because people here in the Midwest have a lot of stress and have a lot of things going on in their lives. If they can come here and feel special, listen to music, have someone wait on them, drink a glass of wine and eat a cheese plate or whatever for a day, we’ve succeeded.Bob: I’m going to tell you that when my wife and I went out to Elmaro, and I explained to you that I wasn’t a wine drinker [and] that I’d stolen a bottle of wine as a kid and drank too much of it and didn’t like it. Elmaro changed my view on wine because I had two glasses of wine. I had a glass of the cranberry and I had the Duet, and they were both fantastic. Then we shared the local cheese and meat tray, and it was delicious. Every piece of that – everything that you just explained – encompassed our time. We enjoyed ourselves. It was at peace. It was a beautiful day. We got to be outside. We got to see the surroundings and your beautiful farm, and we tasted your great-tasting wine. It was an awesome day.Lynita: That’s what we’re going for: just to let people have somewhere that they can feel like a queen for a day or a king for a day.Bob: You guys have won a lot of awards. What different awards has Elmaro won?Lynita: We’re always striving for a little more, and to do it a little better, and we’re learning all the time. We have had one wine that won a sweepstakes out at Long Beach, and that is a suburb of L.A., and that we won the sweepstakes. The sweepstakes means we’re the best white wine in their competition according to the judges. That one we were really thrilled about after we learned what a sweepstakes was, because we didn’t know. When the lady who won the best red wine sweepstakes called me and congratulated me, I was like, ‘Oh, that’s nice. Thank you, and congrats to you, too.’ She said, ‘You don’t get it. We’ve tried 40 years to get a sweepstakes, and we finally got one, and you’ve got one now, too.’ We’d only been making wine four or five years when that happened. We were pretty thrilled.Bob: How did you come up with the name of Elmaro?Lynita: It happened in 1976. Mark and his mom and dad had farmed together, and when they incorporated they had to come up with a name. Mark’s dad said, ‘Let’s use all our names together,’ so it was Elaine, Mark, and Robert, which turned into Elmaro. It was Elmaro Farms for many years. When we built the winery we were trying to come up with a name, and we thought about Tremplo and Riverview and all sorts of things. Finally, Mark said, ‘Why don’t we use the name of the farm? It sounds like a winery.’ So we used Elmaro [and] we had a story behind it. We did some research to make sure it didn’t mean anything in Spanish, and then I was picking grapes with a kid out in Oregon for an experience trip for me. He started laughing when I told him what the name of the winery was. I said, ‘No, no, no. We checked and it doesn’t mean anything in Spanish.’ Elmaro, where he’s from, is slang, which means a child you can’t handle or someone who drank too much and you can’t control them. They’re elmaro.Bob: Are you guys happy to be on the Great River Road?Lynita: Yes, yes. The Great River Road is a great spot. We actually did some research before we built. We knew a winery had to attract 2 percent of the population in a 50-mile radius in order to survive. That’s where we started with the research. We also did research on how many cars go by Highway 35 on the Great River Road, and how many of them might stop based on how many cars were going by. That’s how we got here.Bob: Is Elmaro open year-round?Lynita: Yes. Thank goodness for the locals. Because we’re open during the winter Thursday through Sunday, the locals are what keep us alive. In fact, one day – and it’s very important to be open when we say we will be. One day, there was a blizzard on Sunday this winter, and everybody stayed home who worked here, except for me. Because I live walking distance away, I came down and opened the winery, and I had three guests all day. But those three guests had driven from Holmen, which is 20 miles away, and from Dodge, which is 10, 15 miles away on a bad road, to get here. If they would have come to the door and found out nobody was here, that would have been terrible. So yeah, you have to be open when you say you are.Bob: When is Elmaro open?Lynita: From the first of April to the first of January, we have summer hours, and those are every day except Monday. On weekdays it’s noon to 6. On Friday and Saturday it’s 10 a.m. to 7 p.m. On Sunday we’re not open in the morning because I don’t want it to be an excuse for kids not to go to church, so we’re open at noon and we close at 5 on Sunday.Bob: What a fun conversation with Lynita from Elmaro Vineyards, located on the Wisconsin Great River Road, Highway 35 north of Trempealeau, Wisconsin. [It’s] a wonderful place to visit, chill out, and enjoy a sip of some great wine. Check out their website at elmarovineyard.com, or find them on Facebook at facebook.com/elmarovineyard.

Invisible Fence Brand of the TriStates / E7 - Freedom Invisible Fence Brand of the Tri-States319 Northstar RoadWI 54636(608) 399-1266https://tri-states.invisiblefence.comhttps://www.facebook.com/pages/category/Pet-Service/Invisible-Fence-209481692915/Bob: So right now my dog, Tony, is looking in the garbage.Karla: Great example. So Tony is going to dig in the garbage, which we’re not going to let him because he’s not going to. But I have solutions for that. We have indoor shields, which are avoidance products, so I can keep Tony out of the garbage. I can teach him to stay out of the garbage.Bob: But if I put it in the garbage, then I’ll be throwing it away.Karla: No, you’re not. You’re not going to put it in the garbage. We’re going to put it by the garbage. We might put it in the garbage can, but in the bottom. And because Tony could really use a friend and another dog in your house …Bob: You’re not getting me to get another dog.Karla: Let’s say Tony needs a buddy. Okay, so Tony, you get another dog, and that dog stays away from the garbage. You could set it up so it just affects Tony and not the other dog. Or, let’s say Tony and the other dog want to compete for each other’s food. Like I see on the floor here you have his dog bowls. We could put an Invisible Fence Brand Shields there, and I can have it set up different pets, different roles. I can have it set up so they can’t get at each other’s food while they’re eating dinner.Bob: You mentioned for two dogs it’s a great solution. But what about somebody who has multiple dogs, like eight or nine or 10? Or 15, like you do?Karla: I use them all the timeBob: Are they that versatile that you’re able to give them that many different … Okay, this dog can do this, this dog can’t do that …Karla: Or both these dogs can do this. Like for instance, in my basement I have two of my dogs that think the basement should be a great place to hide and go potty. So right now I have it set up so those two dogs can’t go down into the basement. But I have other of my dogs that can go down to the basement and it doesn’t even affect them. It doesn’t bother them.Bob: So when all your dogs go downstairs, those two don’t go downstairs?Karla: Correct.Bob: They can’t even go down the steps.Karla: Nope.Bob: Is it something that’s gaudy that’s going to stand out?Karla: Oh, gosh no. You can’t even see mine. I have it hidden on the steps.Bob: Is it the size of a hockey puck?Karla: I have one the size of a hockey puck. I have one the size of a salad plate. I have another that’s as long as a step and about 2 feet wide – like a plank. You could put it in a doorway. You can step on it. If you had someone who is handicapped in your home, they could wheel across it with a wheelchair. It’s great. I can keep dogs out of whole rooms. I can connect those together. I have two stinky sharpeis right now that used to love to go in by the grand piano and lick the piano while she was playing and it was gross and grossing her out. She didn’t want them licking her grand piano, so we set those up and we linked them together. Now they can’t get in there. It’s great. But they can sit outside that room and watch her and listen to her play the piano.Bob: How big of a broadcast area do those have?Karla: Quite large. That’s a huge room. It’s an open concept room. It’s huge. I have four of them linked together.Bob: So those are some of the products. Can you also put some of the Invisible Fence Brand wire in the house too to keep it …?Karla: If I want to, but I don’t need to.Bob: Is that something that if somebody having a new build, could they incorporate that into the … Or putting a new floor into the kitchen?Karla: Absolutely. We have done that. The other product that I haven’t talked a lot about but I’m really starting to fall in love with is our Doorman product. It’s a dog door.Bob: Do you hire somebody to open the door for the dog?Karla: No, but that’s kind of what it is.Bob: I have children for that.Karla: I do, too, but mine all left. Yours will leave eventually, too. Anyhow, I can do it in glass.Bob: How? Karla: We partner with another company.Bob: So with the glass that I have on my backdoor right there?Karla: Yeah, I can do that.Bob: I don’t have to get a new door?Karla: No. And then Tony could let himself in and out as he wanted to. And you can control it as well. You can say, ‘Okay, Tony. You know what? It’s 9 o’clock at night. You are done going outside and barking at the neighbor dog.’ So you can set it up so he can’t do that.Bob: That’s pretty cool.Karla: Or you can say, ‘You know what? It’s 6 o’clock in the morning. You want to go out and pee? Great. I’m not getting up with you.’ You can set it so the door will let him out at 6 in the morning.Bob: So it can go right in the existing glass?Karla: Yes, I can do that.Bob: That’s pretty cool.Karla: Isn’t it?Bob: That’s a newer product?Karla: We have had it for awhile, but we partner with another company that helps us get that in the glass. It’s not cheap, but at the end of the day, you want it to be sturdy. You want it to be stable, and you want it to be effective where your dog can go in and out. It’s peace of mind. I can do walls, too, with it.Bob: I would figure you would probably have to do a wall.Karla: And I can do regular doors, too.Bob: I know that you’ve helped out my neighbor with her dog. She’s got a pass-through door for her dog.Karla: Correct. That’s not a Doorman, but she has a Pet Safe Door. We sell those, too.Bob: So basically there are solutions for anybody. How about any budget?Karla: I have solutions for many budgets – yes, I do. We have barking solutions that I can offer. A lot of times when people get an Invisible Fence Brand solution, it’s all-encompassing. A lot of times a lot of problems dogs are having, whether it be barking or digging, I can take care of a lot of those things just by the freedom of them being able to go outside and be a dog.Bob: How do we find Invisible Fence Brand?Karla: [The website is] invisiblefence.com.

Invisible Fence Brand of the TriStates / E6 - Consistency Invisible Fence Brand of the Tri-States319 Northstar RoadWI 54636(608) 399-1266https://tri-states.invisiblefence.comhttps://www.facebook.com/pages/category/Pet-Service/Invisible-Fence-209481692915/Bob: Is it hard to train a dog, train an animal? As you mentioned in another podcast, you can put your Invisible Fence Brand products on other animals. Is it hard to train animals on the product?Karla: No, not at all. Invisible Fence has spent a lot of money on training us how to train animals. We are certified by animal behavioralists on looking for cues and being able to work with those animals. There have been studies done about our products, and I’m very confident that I know that it’s consistency, and that is the key for any animal in any training.Bob: When you start off with a puppy and you introduce your puppy to Invisible Fence Brand products, as that dog grows and becomes more a part of the family and integrated with the family, does the Invisible Fence Brand product continue to grow with that animal? Or do they end up outgrowing it?Karla: Oh, gosh no. It grows with them. It’s for them. Just like you teach your kids how to be potty-trained, once they learn that, that stays with them. [It’s the] same with the ‘nos’ and the ‘yesses’ of the rules for dogs. If it’s consistent, they know the rules. So it grows with them, absolutely.Bob: We talk about Invisible Fence Brand quite a bit. Is it more than just fences?Karla: It’s consistency. It’s being part of a family. It’s integrating your dog to teaching them right from wrong. It’s a great tool.Bob: You had mentioned how the Invisible Fence Brand products will help out multiple dogs. Different dogs have different lifespans. Lifespans are anywhere between 10 and 14 years. If you’re spending money on a product such as Invisible Fence Brand, you’ve got multiple dogs and you’re bringing multiple dogs in and out of your life throughout the course of your lifetime, do I have to keep rebuying the product, or is it going to last me a long time?Karla: Nope. It will last you a long time. With my animals – and I lost three last year – I’ve reused those collars.Bob: What about the unit itself for keeping my yard safe?Karla: Same thing. We went to this house we’d never been to before. They were in our database, and they had a system that they bought in 1984, I think. [We’d] never been there. [We] got there, and their collar wasn’t working. And crazy enough, it was the craziest looking thing I’d ever seen. They had purchased a lifetime warranty, which now a lot of our products just come with a lifetime warranty. But back then, you had to purchase it, and they got a whole new system. And she had – what did she tell me? – 12 dogs on it so far.Bob: How do we find Invisible Fence Brand?Karla: [The website is] invisiblefence.com.

Invisible Fence Brand of the TriStates / E5- RulesInvisible Fence Brand of the Tri-States319 Northstar RoadWI 54636(608) 399-1266https://tri-states.invisiblefence.comhttps://www.facebook.com/pages/category/Pet-Service/Invisible-Fence-209481692915/Bob: What are the products Invisible Fence Brand has?Karla: We have outdoor containment products. We have indoor avoidance products. We have freedom products such as the door, and we have GPS products. We can do so many things. It’s just amazing what we can do.Bob: I know in the past we’ve talked a little bit about the GPS products. How big of a space can you legitimately contain with an Invisible Fence Brand product?Karla: As big as you want. It’s very cool. The things that we have up and coming are getting even better. Like I said, the technology is there. But Invisible Fence doesn’t just throw technology out and hope that it works. A lot of our products are in the field testing for five, 10 years before we ever see them.Bob: You mentioned to me a while back that you had an opportunity to talk with somebody that had used Invisible Fence for a shelter.Karla: Actually, she’s a rescue. She manages three different rescue groups. One is a national rescue.Bob: What is her name?Karla: Lisa.Bob: So tell me about Lisa.Karla: We got a chance to meet Lisa. Lisa is a very interesting gal, and I’m hoping I can connect you with her. One of things she’s doing with Invisible Fence Brand products, which is totally awesome … Invisible Fence Brand is a training tool. And a lot of dogs that end up in rescue are [there] because they’ve had some issues. Maybe they potty on the carpet. Maybe they have issues with other dogs being around them as far as eating. Invisible Fence Brand products can help with all those things. And what she does is she uses, with her foster groups, she uses Invisible Fence Brand products to help with those problems. It’s training and it’s consistency, and the cool thing about it is that with every dog that comes into that program, if the new adopters choose to purchase – and that’s up to them – Invisible Fence Brand products, those collars and everything go right with the dog so it stays consistent. A lot of people don’t realize this … She and I had a wonderful conversation about this because I’m a foster mom failure, but I’ve done a lot of rescue. It’s interesting when you put a collar on a dog, it’s almost like, ‘I’m yours.’ That dog is like, ‘I am yours.’ And it’s consistent. So if you’re taking the collar off and putting a different collar on and you’re moving that dog around, it’s very confusing for them. So to put an Invisible Fence Brand collar on and they learn the rules and they learn the consistency, that collar stays with them and goes with them to their new home. It gives them stability. It gives them confidence, and it helps prevent dogs from being returned. So it’s saving lives at the end of the day.Bob: So it must be important, as it is with a child, it’s important for a dog to have those same feelings.Karla: Yes, absolutely. Dogs technically have a mentality of a 2- to 3-year-old child.Bob: I’ve been told I do, too.Karla: You are a 3-year-old child. It’s been well-documented over and over again. But you know, the cool thing is that dogs have the sense of, ‘I belong to you. This is my family.’ And if they know the rules, the rules are right there.Bob: How do we find Invisible Fence Brand?Karla: [The website is] invisiblefence.com.

Invisible Fence Brand of the TriStates / E8 - 62,000 FencesInvisible Fence Brand of the Tri-States319 Northstar RoadWI 54636(608) 399-1266https://tri-states.invisiblefence.comhttps://www.facebook.com/pages/category/Pet-Service/Invisible-Fence-209481692915/Karla: Sixty-two thousand Invisible Fence Brand systems were installed in 2018. Just think if there is one dog in each one of those houses, that means there are 62,000 dogs that are safe. They’re estimating that right now there are over 2 million dogs that are safe.Bob: Because of Invisible Fence products.Karla: Correct.Bob: What makes Invisible Fence Brand products different and better than what the other people are selling?Karla: I guess I would say the technology and our engineering. We’ve been around the longest, so we’ve got the most as far as research and technology into our products. We stand behind our products. The technology, I can tell you it’s patented. If you were to buy a cellphone today and wanted to compare it to a cellphone that maybe another company has, it might be a cellphone from 1993, that technology – analog versus digital versus smartphone. We’ve just come a long way, and we spend a lot of time and effort to make sure that what we put out there is safe for the pets.Bob: When we talk, we say Invisible Fence Brand rather than just Invisible Fence. Is that because you guys are kind of the Kleenex of the invisible fences?Karla: Yes. We are not a category. We are a brand.Bob: What does that mean?Karla: What you’re alluding to is that Kleenex is a brand. But if you say, ‘I need to blow my nose,’ you don’t say, ‘Can I have a facial tissue?’ You say, ‘Can I get a Kleenex?’ Why we add brand to that is to differentiate ourselves. We are a brand. We are not a category.Bob: But you’re the top brand of the category that’s named after you.Karla: Correct.Bob: Is Invisible Fence Brand the first?Karla: Yes, and it was invented by Mr. Peck, who was a traveling salesman. He got tired of seeing dogs dead on the side of the road and thought there had to be a better way. In the early 70s, if you were in the rural area and driving down the road, it wasn’t uncommon to see a dog dead on the side of the road. It just wasn’t. You don’t see very many dead animals on the side of the road like that anymore – not domesticated dogs or cats. You might see a deer, but I mean you just don’t see that anymore. And if you do see it, there’s someone there.Bob: Is that because people have taken more care for their animals now, or because of the Invisible Fence Brand products?Karla: I think that’s an encompassing question. I think it’s both. I think as time has gone on, we find value in our pets and we spend the money to keep them safe.Bob: How do we find Invisible Fence Brand?Karla: [The website is] invisiblefence.com.

To find out more about the Wisconsin Great River Road please check out the website www.WiGRR.com to find out more about the Lock and Dam system please check out their Facebook page at https://www.facebook.com/usace.saintpaul/Bob: Jim Rand, Chief of Lock and Dams for the St. Paul District Army Corps of Engineers, joining us this month on the Wisconsin Great River Road Microcast. The first question I have for you, Jim, is, what is a lock and dam?Jim: A lock and dam has a dual function: to create pools, and to pass traffic. A lock and dam is very similar to a set of stairs. Each lock has its individual stair height. If we break into two parts, there’s a dam, and what that does is that allows us to maintain a 9-foot navigation channel in the upper Mississippi River. That 9-foot channel allows us to pass loaded commercial traffic – barges, towboats is what they’re commonly referred to – up and down the river system from St. Paul all the way down to the Gulf of Mexico. Bob: So the purpose mainly is for commerce on the river?Jim: Correct. The dam itself is there to maintain the 9-foot navigation channel, and that will allow us to pass commercial traffic.Bob: How much traffic goes on the mighty Mississippi River on a typical year?Jim: Last year, for us, for the St. Paul District, from Lock 10, Guttenberg, Iowa, north, we passed around 107 million tons of commodities.Bob: And that keeps how many trucks off the road? Do you know?Jim: I do. One 15-barge tow is equivalent to about 1,050 semis. So if we look at that in a length scenario, a towboat fully loaded with 15 barges is about a quarter-mile long. And those equivalent commodities in semi trucks, it’s just shy of 14 miles, bumper-to-bumper.Bob: So you’re taking a lot of traffic off the roads. That way, people will be able to get out and enjoy the Great River Road from driving it rather than having to deal with all that traffic from here to there.Jim: CorrectBob: Jim, why would somebody want to stop by and see a lock and dam?Jim: We get a lot of people watching the eagles. We get a lot of otters around the locks, so we have a lot of people watching wildlife. The other thing that they do a lot is, they just stop by to watch boat traffic, and to watch fishermen. We get a lot of the cruise paddlewheelers – the American Queen, Delta Queen, Mississippi Queen. That’s a big event. They put their schedules out well in advance, so we get quite a turnout for those events when those boats pass through. We have several open houses at our locks and dams up and down the river that normally we try to coincide with a local community festival. We allow people on the site so they can see how everything works. We’ll let the kids blow the horn and all that kind of fun stuff. We do allow fishing around our structures from the shore, so we get a lot of fishermen in the spring, summer, fall timeframe. We’ve got a lot of ice fishermen around right now. There’s always quite a bit of action around the lock and dam.Bob: Jim, as you know, this winter has been a winter of records with all the snow that we’ve had. Once that snow starts to melt, it will obviously find its way to the Mississippi. When that happens, do you open up the locks and the dams and allow all of the water to flow so that way it doesn’t flood?Jim: The locks and dams in our district are for navigation purposes only. They’re not flood control structures. Congress has given us the authority to maintain these pools at a certain sea elevation. Our lock operators adjust that dam. There are big gates over there – roller and tainter gates – they adjust that plus or minus normally two-tenths of a foot tolerance from the guidance from our Water Control Management Office up in the district. We can hold back to only a certain flow of water – every site is a little different – and then we raise those gates out of the water and it becomes open river.Bob: What is the life expectancy of the lock and dam structure?Jim: When they were built in the 30s, the life expectancy was 50 years.Bob: Obviously, we’ve gone past that.Jim: Obviously, we’ve gone well past that. We’ve done some significant upgrades to both of our electrical systems, both to our operating systems, to our control houses. Based on our cyclical maintenance, we’ve been able to prolong the lifespan of these structures.Bob: That’s fantastic you’ve been able to do that and keep the history alive. We talked a little bit earlier about the barges. What about pleasure crafts on the Mississippi River? Are they able to lock through?Jim: Yes. We’ll lock just about anything through. The paddleboards where people stand up and paddle, we can’t lock those through, and a jet ski that you have to stand up on to operate, the reason being the operator would be in the water in the locking process. We don’t want that.Bob: Where can people find out more information about how they can see when boats may be going through, or when they can find out when some of the open houses are where they can actually go on and see the insides of a lock and dam?Jim: The best resource today is probably social media. We advertise all of our open houses through our St. Paul District Corps of Engineers Facebook page. That’s probably the one-stop shop for all of our events that are coming up.Bob: Is there a place close by each of those locks where you’re able to tie off and maybe see some of the communities like Perrot State Park or Trempealeau Mountain or downtown La Crosse or Prairie du Chien or any of those places?Jim: Yeah. Most of them have local marinas that rent out slips where you can dock your boat. I’m not sure if you can tie up a boat at Riverside [Park] in La Crosse, but I know Trempealeau, for example, has the Trempealeau Marina. They’ll allow you to tie up there. There are walking paths uptown. I know the Genoa Lock and Dam has tie-off points on the backside of their upper guide wall where recreational boaters can tie off there and go uptown. There are a lot of local resources for a boater to stop and then to walk uptown and check out the local communities.

Episode 04Section: Fresh Paint news from the hobbyTamiya Ford GT kit https://tamiyablog.com/2018/11/first-photos-and-details-of-tamiya-24346-1-24-ford-gt-shown-at-tamiya-fair-2018/What is polishing?* Why sanding and polishing* Wet sanding* Chemical polishesToolsSandpaper* wet / dry* grits* micromesh* sanding pads* sanding sticksPolishing Compounds* Novus* Mequires* Tamiya* Other Auto Products* Systems?Cloths* Preferences* Soft cotton* microfibre (can tire)* make sure clean* washing vs disposing?Prep / Intermediate Costs* What is the process?* Sand primer coats (what grit I use 2000)* Always use wet* Sand intermediate paint coats* Both metallic and regular paint* Very softly for metaliic?* Do not sand finish coats of metallic paint or intermediate coats of clear unless gently fixing small blemishes and dust spotsPolishing* Process* Wet sand - use warm water and soap* Sand in different direction for each different grit* Tape off sharp corners / trim pieces to avoid burnthrough* Knock off all shine in the paint before moving on to the next higher grit.* When sanding complete, what products do you use?* JT - Novus 2 -> Novus 1* Waxes and Finishes?Cautions* cutting through paint from oversandingShortcuts* What steps can be skipped for a quicker build?Section: Q&Ahct728(Bob) - How about painting, e.g. the Norbie method as applied to acrylic (water-based), enamel or lacquer paint, and suggested thinners, proportions, time before recoat (one minute, five minutes...), drying hints…hct728(Bob) - How about finished paint polishing products and methods, removing dust and fuzz..Section: Closing ShoutoutsPat Redmond - A short review on the previous show, give us rattlecan/auto paint guys a bit of attention (LOL), ..... just keep on doing what you're doing...... *NM*Music Attribution: https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Surf_Music_Month_Challenge/Surf_Music_Month_Challenge/

This has become one of my funnest episodes to record! I enjoy hearing from listeners and sharing some answers to the most riveting questions on their minds!   In today's episode I answer the following:   How did I know I wanted to be an entrepreneur? Tooahn When did I first learn about networking and how has it changed?  Tom What are you reading these days? Micah What's your favorite color? Mrs. Jones' 3rd grade class Do you think the problem with the Cowboys is bad leadership or bad coaching? Sarah When did you start your first business? And how many do you run today? Bob How do you find the time to do everything you do? Pete I notice all your posts about soccer. What's your favorite pro team? Cynthia I'm an entrepreneur and I find it incredibly hard to stay balanced and focused with two little kids at home. How do or did you do it? Jill What advice would you give someone thinking about a career change? Patrice What's the coolest thing you have in your office? - Sheila    How do you find the inspiration tidbits you share each day? Kevin I share your Ripple thoughts of the day with my students every day. They how you decided to start sharing them? - Stacey What is the scariest thing you've ever done? Mrs. M If you could go back and do anything over, what would it be? - Nic   Details on the Virtual Ripple Coaching Program: https://ripplecentral.com/services/virtual-coaching/

Debbie Ziegler's daughter, Brittany Maynard at the age of 29 was diagnosed with a terminal brain tumor she chose to end her life. Her story was controversial and painful. Debbie shares her daughter's journey in life and how she ended hers. Photo credit: Simon & Schuster Contact Debbie Ziegler website – Get a copy of her book, Wild and Precious Life Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Transcript Dr. Bob: Well, Debbie, thank you. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you coming and spending time. We've had a number of conversations over, since we met, which was probably a year or two ago. Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: I think each time we talk, we get a little bit deeper into the conversations, and I think we both are very aligned in what we're trying to do with our time here. Debbie Ziegler: Absolutely. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I would love to use this time for you to share a bit about Brittany so people can really know who Brittany was. I think a lot of people know the name, Brittany Maynard. It's become, in many areas, a household name, and I think certainly in California, and a lot of people think of her as groundbreaking, but they don't really know Brittany. Hopefully, after this, after people hear this, they'll get your book, and they'll learn a lot about Brittany and about her journey, but I'm hoping that you can share a bit about that, because I think it would be really valuable for people to understand who Brittany was, what she did, and then what you've been doing to carry on her legacy and honor her, so ... Debbie Ziegler: Well, thank you for asking me to speak with you today. Brittany is remembered for the last act of her life, and those last minutes of her life are relived over and over again and spoken of over and over again. She knew they would be, and before she died, she asked me ... She said, "Mama, make sure people remember me for how I lived as much as they remember me for how I died." That is something that I try to honor her by doing, and one of the ways that I honored her was by writing a book about the way she lived, and I titled it Wild and Precious Life because Brittany did live a wild and precious life. She was very much in love with this world, and when she was terminally ill, she would say to me, "The world is so beautiful, Mom. It's just so beautiful, and I'm going to miss it so much." She did not want to leave this earth. Nothing inside of her desired that, but the fact was that she was terminally ill, and she had a terrible and gigantic brain tumor that had been growing for over a decade. When I look back at Brittany's life, I try to focus on the brain and how marvelous and plastic it was to tolerate the growth of a tumor for 10 years and to, as that tumor slowly grew, her plastic, resilient brain transferred function. I try to remember that. Even when I first find out she was sick, she had already lived a miracle, and it's important to focus that. The miracle I wanted to happen, which, of course, was that she wouldn't die, didn't happen, but a miracle had already happened in that she had lived 10 years with the brain tumor growing. Dr. Bob: What a beautiful awareness and a gift. It's so interesting because many people don't have that. Many people have a, are diagnosed relatively quickly after something that starts developing because it's created issues that can't be ignored or- Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: ... their plasticity won't happen, and so everything changes from that moment on. Right? They're thrown into the health care system and start having procedures and treatments, and so ... You know that this is a fatal illness, even when it's caught early. Debbie Ziegler: Yes. I think that one thing that Brittany and I talked about quite frequently is that every person's disease is different, and it annoyed Brittany that people felt that just because their uncle, cousin, niece, had had a brain tumor, that they somehow knew her journey. The same thing happens to, I think, cancer patients with any kind of cancer. We have to remember, as we interface and speak with and try to love these people through their illness, that every body's illness is different. Just as our bodies are different, our cancer is different. It can be very, very frustrating for a patient to be told, "Oh, well, my aunt did this," or, "My uncle did that." Let's just try to take each patient alone and single and look at their disease and look at their illness separately and try not to bring in all these other judgments based on other stories. Brittany's illness, she had been living with, and the tumor had been growing very slowly, and so that allowed for that plasticity. If a tumor grows in your brain in a quick fashion, a much, much smaller tumor could kill you. Dr. Bob: Yeah, or in a different position, a different location in the brain. Debbie Ziegler: This would be the same for other cancers. It would be the same for people with any kind of cancer. Depending on how that cancer, how that tumor's growing, it takes its own cruel path, and so one of my big hot buttons is that we stop and remember that everybody's journey is different, and everybody faces their illness in a different way. The way my daughter faced it was by getting all the information she could get. She was almost an encyclopedia about brain tumors, about the types of cells that make brain tumors, about how those tumors progress in people of certain age groups. She read white papers. She had a good education, so she was lucky enough to be able to read that kind of paper that might put some of us to sleep. She was able to read it and really extract information for it, so when she entered a doctor's office, she was speaking their terminology, and she was very well read, so that is a different kind of patient. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I would imagine that for certain doctors, that would be a little bit ... I'm not sure if "intimidating" would be the right word, but they're not used to that. They're used to having, to doing the education and kind of doing it on their own terms. Debbie Ziegler: Yes. There is, and there is this paternal mold of medicine that's been in the United States for a long time where, for many years, we looked at our doctors as sort of an extra father in the family that what he said was how it went. We had this paternal model where we never even asked the doctor, "Well, what are my options," and we didn't have the internet, and we didn't have this quick way to get information. In the case of my daughter, she was actually checking out medical documents online and reading medical documents. We're in a different place, and we're in a different time. We're struggling with this old, paternal medical model, which isn't working for us well anymore. Then you add on top of that that if a doctor got a scan of Brittany's brain, one doctor said, "I expected her to be wheeled in on a gurney and unable to speak," because the tumor was in that portion of her brain that allows you to speak and vocalize, and it looked like that must, those skill sets must be gone, but because it had grown so slowly, those skillsets had moved, and she was able not only to speak but to speak very articulately. I do think it was a shock, and a little bit more difficult to deal with, with a patient who's very well read and very outspoken. My daughter was, even from a young child, a very purpose-filled person. I remember they observed her playing when they were analyzing whether she was ready for kindergarten, and they wrote in the report that her playing was purpose-filled. That came back to me as I watched her negotiate her illness, and I thought, "Okay, well, those things that made it difficult to mother her, that purpose-filled, stubborn, willful sort of way, was a wonderful asset to her when she was ill and needed to navigate her illness." People ask me all the time about how Brittany could make a decision like this so confidently, and my answer is that she had the innate personality to question and to, and she also had the educational background that she could absorb the scientific information and accept it on a factual level. The emotional part, matching her ability to be emotionally strong, matching her background to be able to understand the information that is terribly frightening, and which, honestly, I mean, I taught science. I couldn't read it in the beginning. It took me about a month to be able to read about brain tumors. I just couldn't do it. [inaudible 00:11:20]. Dr. Bob: You mean you couldn't do it because it was too difficult emotionally or because it was too, the information was too- Debbie Ziegler: It was emotionally. Dr. Bob: Okay. Debbie Ziegler: I also have a science background, and I taught science, so I could read it, and I could interpret it, but as her mother, having just heard that she had a terminal diagnosis with a brain tumor, emotionally I was unable to read about brain tumors for well over a month. This is a part of what happens to the family of the terminally ill person. Sometimes, they're knocked back into a period of denial where they're unable to look at the truths; they're unable to look at the facts. I think that makes it more difficult in some ways, and yet I'm told by psychologists that denial is something that helps us deal with crisis and eventually move on, as long as we move through it and don't stay in that place. I can testify to the strength of denial, and I can certainly say, from my experience, that it is very important to overcome it if you're going to help your loved one. It's something you must battle through and get to the other side. Dr. Bob: I think that's so powerful, and, I guess, recognizing that it's happening, being open to recognizing that, and that it's normal, and you don't have to rush yourself through it, because it is a process, but if you're not aware that that's what's happening, then it seems like it's the reality and it's appropriate, and would be much more difficult to get through it and be of support as you ultimately want and need to be, so ... Debbie Ziegler: Particularly if the patient gets to the point where they are out of denial. Many terminally ill people quietly, but firmly, believe that they have a pretty good handle on how much time they have. Something inside them says it's not going to be more than a few months, but they, if they're surrounded by people who are in denial, they have no one to discuss that with. They have no one to say, "Look, I'm dying." My daughter, because of her youth and because of who she was, said to me in the hospital one night, she was in her bed, and I was climbing on to a gurney next to her, and she said to me, "Mama, you get that I'm dying, don't you? I need you to get this." It just ripped my heart out, but at the same time, I realized, "Oh, my goodness. I have to look at this. I have to turn around. I have to stop running and pretending that I can find some miraculous doctor in some other country," which is what I was dreaming of at that point. "I have to turn around and look at my child who is telling me, 'I'm dying.' I have to be with her in that moment." I'm telling you, it's hard, and I'm also telling you it's really important for the patient, really important for the patient to be able to say, "The people that love me get it. They get it. I'm dying, and they get it." Dr. Bob: "And stop wasting my time." Right? "I'm-" Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: "Be here with me, because we don't have a lot of time for what we need to do." Debbie Ziegler: In her case, she wanted us to listen to what her desire was for the rest of her life, what it was going to look like, because being told that she had about six months to live, Brittany immediately sprang into her list of, she had a bucket list of places she wanted to visit. She had a list of people she wanted to talk to before she died. She had a list of accomplishments that she wanted to be able to be a part of, which included, in the beginning, she wanted to write some articles. She decided she wanted to write articles because the medication she was on to keep the pressure in her cranium down from this gigantic tumor causing this pressure, she was taking a lot of steroids, strong steroid medication, and steroid medication at that level has some pretty gnarly side effects. It makes you get this round, very full face, which they refer to in medicine as a moon face. Brittany thought, "All right, because I don't want anybody taking pictures of my moon face, and that way, I can write an article and still have an impact and advocate for other terminally ill patients, but I won't be seen." Then as it turned out, and as many people know, that is not the path that it took, and she was asked to have her photograph taken, and then she was asked to be filmed, and then she was asked to be interviewed. All of this was done when Brittany didn't look like Brittany anymore, and she cried, and she said, "I just see cancer in that face. That doesn't look like my face. That looks like the face of cancer." I know what a sacrifice she made to do this for people. We talked about how it was normal at 29 to feel feelings of vanity, yeah, a little bit, as you're a woman and you don't want to look bad, and how she was going to overcome that. Of course, as her mother, I kept saying, "You're so beautiful, Brittany. You are still beautiful. It's just a different beautiful." She would be like, "Oh, Mama, you're my mom," but I just want people who are ill to know that those last six months that my daughter had were some of the most productive month of her life. She had a sense of urgency and joy. In between sadness and terror, there were these moments of great joy and satisfaction, as we walked through a particular place in nature that spoke to her. She'd call me, "Mama, come and look. Come and look at the banana slug. Come and look at the starfish. Come and ... " We shared those moments of joy because she faced her illness, and she was not going to waste that time. That required decision-making. That required saying, "No," to some treatments that she felt, after reading about them, we're not going to buy her any significant amount of time, and while she did those treatments and did not receive significant time, the treatment itself was going to deteriorate her lifestyle. Her quality of life was very important to her, and she said, "If I'm not getting any measurable upside here in the way of extended life, then I need to be looking at the quality of the little life that I have left," and so she remained focused on that, and she remained strong in the face of some pretty persuasive and, in some cases, almost bullying that went on in the medical system of, "You must do chemotherapy. You must start it on Monday." Even her oncologist, after doing DNA testing, told Brittany, "You aren't a good candidate for chemo." She said, "Your DNA, your markers, are indicating that you're not a good candidate. There's a very, very small percentage of chance that chemo would do you any good, and there is some chance that chemo could actually make your tumor grow faster because you have a glioblastoma now." Dr. Bob: Certainly, it would deteriorate her quality of life, which she knew, and yet still there were physicians who were part of her team who were pushing her. Debbie Ziegler: Definitely pushing that. She stayed with her oncologist, who she felt understood chemo the best more than the surgeon, and she said, "Your own hospital just wrote a paper about chemo not always being the right answer for the brain tumor patient, and so I'm saying, 'No.' I know that you know this within these halls, and I'm not going to do it. It doesn't have enough of a possibility of upside for me, and it has a definite downside that's very well known. The symptoms that will take away my ability to do some things that are very important to me," one of being that she wanted to travel to Alaska, and she wanted to ride in a helicopter in Alaska and land on a glacier. She wanted to go on a dog sled and cross a glacier. She wanted to move in a dog sled on a glacier that was moving on a planet that was moving in a solar system that was moving. We wanted to be moving in time and space, and we did it. Dr. Bob: That's wonderful. That's awesome. Debbie, at what point, at what point after the diagnosis, did the whole concept of medical aid in dying come into her awareness and start becoming a bit of a focus? Debbie Ziegler: For Brittany, her focus on aid and dying came much more quickly than anyone else in her family, because, at Berkeley, she had been in a psychology class where they had had a discussion about end-of-life options. Her class had heatedly argued about end-of-life options, and so Brittany had already thought about this, discussed it, and, quite frankly, been a participant in a conversation at a high level. As soon as she was told, and she did ask directly, none of her family could or would, because we were all in denial, she's the one that forced the conversation and said, "Is this brain tumor going to kill me? Is this a terminal brain tumor?" She was told, "Yes, it is terminal. At this point, until we have tested this cell structure, we don't know how long, but we do know this is what you will die of." As soon as they told her that, she began discussing end-of-life options. She did not know how long her life would be, but she did know that the tumor was going to take her life, and she knew enough from her science background of the course of action that a brain tumor takes that she knew she wanted to be looking into other options rather than just following a natural course. Dr. Bob: How fortuitous for her, not maybe fortuitous at all, but that she had had, been exposed to it. Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: Not a lot of 28, 29-year-olds are- Debbie Ziegler: No. Dr. Bob: ... and so it could have been a very different process, and path had that not happened. Debbie Ziegler: The way she introduced the topic into conversation was, I think she was trying to spare us until she could discuss it with her parents, but she said to the doctor, "How can I get transferred into the Oregon medical system?" That, of course, to everyone in the room, seemed like an odd question, and in the back of my mind, because I am a science teacher and, of course, had read articles, I thought, "Oregon. Oh, my goodness. I know why she's talking about Oregon." I couldn't have told you the details, but I knew that it had to do with the right to die, and I knew what she was talking about the very first time she mentioned it. I knew where she was going. Within seconds, there were two people in the room. I'm sure the doctor knew what she was talking about, although he chose, at that moment in time, to not recognize it, to say, "Well, why would you want to do that? You're in a fine medical system here in California." It wasn't until days later that we had open conversations about why she was interested in Oregon. Of course, since that time, California has passed an End of Life Option bill. I feel that that is my daughter's legacy. I believe that it was her story of having to move out of California in order to die, in order to die peacefully, that touched a lot of hearts and made history in California. I smile when I think of our End of Life Option Act because, in my heart, it's Brittany's act. Dr. Bob: Well, it was Brittany's act, but she couldn't have done it without you. Right? You- Debbie Ziegler: She- Dr. Bob: You were her partner in that. Debbie Ziegler: She had help, and she had many, many volunteers who loved her, who loved her spunk, her feistiness, her story, who immediately gravitated towards supporting her. I have had letters written from all over the world, from all over the world. I now speak with people in an ongoing relationship, some of whom I have met face to face now, and some of whom I haven't, from countries all over the world about Brittany, and some of these faithful people write me every time it's her birthday, every anniversary of her death, every anniversary of the bill being passed, and they tell me how much my daughter means to them, and that they live in a place where there is no law, and that she stands for hope to them, that she stands for hope that one day, all of humanity will treat each other with love and kindness and will not be so afraid of death. It's such a beautiful legacy that it helps me accept that she's gone. She's gone physically from me. Those first few years, grief was so difficult, and I've met so many grieving people, and as I was grieving, I would literally be knocked down to my knees sometimes. I'd be crying on my knees in the hall, or in the living room, or in the kitchen, or one time in a park, another time in a store, like a T.J. Maxx. Here's this lady down on her knees, crying. I would always smile through my tears and know that Brittany would be saying, "Get up. Get up, right now, because you're on your knees crying. It means there's something that needs to be done. Look around. See what needs to be done." The first time, I got up, and I thought, "Oh, my goodness. I just opened an email about how dire the blood shortage was," so I went and donated blood, and now I try to donate blood twice a year in Brittany's name. I pick times of the year when that is hardest for me. I pick the times of year when I know the grief is going to wash over me again. Times, holidays, her birthday, the day of her death, the beginning of the year. I pick times to do the donations when I know that giving blood is going to be this beautiful gift that's going to lift me out of my sorrow. Then I look around and see other things that need to be done. I see an elderly person that needs a visitor or flowers. I see a friend who needs a visit who is fighting breast cancer. When I go into my worst grief, I always hear her saying, "Get up and look around. There must be something you need to do." That is one of the ways I've dealt with grief is by getting up and looking around. Dr. Bob: And doing what, and doing what is- Debbie Ziegler: And doing something- Dr. Bob: ... right there, immediate, in your awareness. Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: I'm going to, so can we stay with this for a moment? Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: I know that I've been with you, and you've shared some of your other tools, tips, ways of working through the grief. Debbie Ziegler: Grief, yes. Dr. Bob: I think I would love for you to share if you're up for it, a couple more, just a little bit more about how you've managed to work through your grief or work with your grief as a guide here for some of our listeners. Debbie Ziegler: Well, in the beginning, I have to admit that grief was like, it was a black ocean sucking me under, and I thought, "If I don't do something, I'm not going to make it." I really, first of all, I admitted this to the people I loved who began searching for things that might help me. My sister came to me with a treatment that's called ... I don't know the letters for it. I think it's PTSD, but it's an eye treatment. Dr. Bob: Oh, EMDR? Debbie Ziegler: EMDR. Dr. Bob: Emotional freedom release, yeah. Debbie Ziegler: It is EMDR, and it's rapid eye movement treatment. Because I told people, "I can't talk my way through this. Talk therapy is not going to be enough. I can't do this." This is a scientific treatment where you are asked to follow a light with your eyes. I was probably the most skeptical person on earth that it would help me, but it did, and rather rapidly. It took me out of this circular, negative thinking that I had. I had a few broken records that revolved around Brittany's illness and Brittany's death, and those records would come on and play over and over again, and this treatment of causing my eyes to move while I thought about this, or while I thought about a very stressful day or the actual day of her death, while I thought or discussed about that, my eyes were moving, and it causes your brain to use both sides, the right and left, and your own brain helps you heal and stop that broken record from playing. That is one treatment that I feel very strongly about. I also used the treatment of touch, of various therapies that have to do with massage and different types of massage, to kind of work the tightness that was in my muscles. After being with Brittany and anticipating her death for six months, there was a lot of muscle difficulty, and so I used that. I also have a sister-in-law who sent me ... I also have a sister-in-law who sent me various scents, an aromatherapist, and she sent me a mister. She sent this to us before Brittany died, and Brittany used it all the time to help her try to sleep. That was a difficult part of the last month of her life was getting any sleep, so both she and I used aromatherapy, which is another thing that I sort of, as a scientist, was sort of like, "How can I possibly help?" Yet- Dr. Bob: It did. Debbie Ziegler: It did. In fact- Dr. Bob: Undeniably. Debbie Ziegler: ... my daughter said the two therapies that helped her the most, she said, "Look at all the doctors we've been to, Mom. Look at all the specialists, the high-paid brain surgeons, neurologists, oncologists," and she said, "Look what I'm down to in the last weeks of my life. I'm down to massage and aromatherapy, and these are the two things that soothe me and help me." She used them right up to the end, and she developed a relationship with her masseuse, and she developed a relationship with my sister-in-law, who sent the aromatherapy. Along with these treatments came this human touch and caring that's so important. Dr. Bob: You're singing my tune. I mean, those are the things, of course, that we try to, and it's just, I didn't know that about Brittany's- Debbie Ziegler: [inaudible 00:35:07]. Dr. Bob: ... about what brought her comfort, so it was really, it's, I guess, confirmation, more confirmation about how incredibly valuable these therapies and are ... Not to throw out every other treatment that is being offered through the traditional medical system, because sometimes those are very important, but the value of some of these- Debbie Ziegler: Simpler- Dr. Bob: ... high-touch- Debbie Ziegler: ... natural- Dr. Bob: Yeah. No side effects. What are the side effects of massage therapy? I'm so happy to hear that that was comforting for her, and also for you, afterward. Debbie Ziegler: It was, and we would go together, and friends would send her massage gift certificates. It was a way for them to reach out to her and to give her some solace. We had a special place that we went to and a special group of women who knew her and knew our story, and so it was a safe place that felt safe to go to, and ... Dr. Bob: And that connection. Right? The connection that she made, which was not, didn't revolve around her illness. Debbie Ziegler: No. Dr. Bob: It wasn't going to get a treatment or for someone to check and see how she's progressing. It was a human connection, which people at all stages need, and when we can provide that, it normalizes things. It enhances the feelings of well-being, so this is another pretty powerful reminder of that. Debbie Ziegler: The people that worked in the area that we went to, which was Portland, Oregon, we went to a place there, they never questioned her. They never argued with her. They just said, "How are you today? Where do you feel that ... Do you have places that we need to concentrate on? Do you have places where you have some knots in your shoulders, you just want ... How much pressure?" It was all about, "What feels good to you, Brittany, today? Because we just want to send you out of here feeling a little bit better than you came in." There was no lofty goal to cure cancer. There was no lofty goal to fix this girl who had this gigantic brain tumor. It was just, "From where you start to where you leave, we promise you're going to feel a little bit better." Dr. Bob: In that moment. Debbie Ziegler: And she did. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Debbie Ziegler: And she did. Dr. Bob: That's wonderful. Debbie Ziegler: Yeah. That's a beautiful thing. Dr. Bob: We talked a bit about some of the ways that you moved through grief, which I'm sure part of that was what you, basically what's become your life's work as well. Debbie Ziegler: That was very fulfilling. To be able to testify was very fulfilling, and I felt that my testimony came from a place that was a little bit extraordinary in that, as Brittany's mother, this was not my first choice. This was not; I did not readily gravitate to this end-of-life option idea. I stayed in denial for a period of time. I had to work through this in my head. I had to analyze some childhood beliefs that I grew up with in Texas, so when I spoke with senators face to face, or representatives face to face, and they were reticent, or they had some childhood religious beliefs that were kind of interfering with their ability to even hear Brittany's story, I could relate to them, and I told them that. I told them, "I was you. I was you. The look on your face, my poor daughter had to see. I see you avoiding this subject. I see you turning away from death. I see you turning away from this idea. My daughter had to watch me do that, and that must have been so hard for her to have her own mother not be able to discuss it, to be in denial for a period of time." I felt that my testimony was from a place of, a commonplace that we had, and I felt that in some cases, minds were able to change, or people were able to look inside and say, "Hey, maybe I do need to look at this a little, from a little bit of a different angle." I felt that that was an important truth that I could share was that I didn't start out all gung-ho about this. I knew what she was talking about, and it scared me to death. It really did. It's an important common ground that we had. Then as I went on and spoke in different environments and different countries, I recently came back from Africa, where I spoke at a conference there where people from 23 different countries met in Africa to discuss our human right worldwide to die peacefully when we are terminally ill, to seek a peaceful death. It was very empowering to meet these people who are; literally, you could almost feel the room vibrating with the love and excitement that these people have about making the end of someone's life more tolerable. Coming back from something like that is just, infuses me more with energy and confidence, and inspires me that this is important work, and that I believe that sharing the hardest parts of how it happened and the hardest parts of what we went through in the public eye and as a family who really didn't have very much of a help and assistance ... In fact, we kind of had to claw our way into a situation where my daughter could use the law. I feel like telling those hard parts and just kind of opening my kimono and letting people see the pain, that maybe they will have confidence when, and if, something happens in their own family, that they can say, "Oh, I read about this one time, and you know what? She was in denial, too. That's what I'm in. I'm in denial. I recognize this." Maybe it will help someone get out of denial. Maybe it will help someone not feel so alone. Maybe it will help someone support a patient and say, "What do you think? You are the one who's dying. Let's make a plan, your plan, your plan, because this is your life, and I want to hear what you want to do." Maybe it will help someone look into the patient's eyes instead of running out of the room and making phone calls to try to make something that can never happen. I just, I think that if we don't tell our story and share the humanness of dying, that we're not going to move forward. The more we keep hiding and not talking about it, the less likely we are to be able to face the end of life, which should be a beautiful time. My daughter showed me that. She showed me that, "Yeah, Mom, it's not always beautiful, because I'm 29, and I'm pissed off that I'm dying, but in between being pissed off, I want to live, and I want to experience joy, and I want to go places, and I want to meet people that I haven't seen in a while, and I want to finish things. I want to feel that I've finished some jobs and some relationships and before I go." She wanted a plan, and I think a dying person's plan, no matter what it is, because it may not be what you, as their relative, want it to be, but their plan is really all they have, and so let's support that plan. Let's talk about that plan and what it's going to look like, and how are we going to get it put in place. I think people don't plan. They wait too late. A hospice is called, sometimes, too late. People end up saying, "Oh, I want to use the End of Life Option Act," but it's too late. They haven't left themselves enough time to get the prescription, to write the letters, to wait for the waiting period. The more we can normalize this and discuss this with our families, with our loved ones, with our friends, the more they can plan and make a good plan, and we can help them put that plan into place, but it's not our job to make the plan for them. It's not our job to get in there and say, "Oh, you need to do this, and you need to do that." We need to stop. After they've been told, "You have a terminal illness," we need to slow down a little minute, and we need to absorb that information with them, and then we need to listen. "What do you want to do? How do you want to live these last months?" It can be beautiful. Dr. Bob: And, "How do you want to die?" Debbie Ziegler: Yes. "How do you want to die?" Dr. Bob: "How do you want to die?" Wow. Okay. I think we came to a beautiful place to pause. You and I are not done with our conversations. Debbie Ziegler: No. Dr. Bob: By a long shot. Debbie Ziegler: California's not finished with this conversation, and I think we're committed to- Dr. Bob: Co-create it. Debbie Ziegler: ... making the best of this that we can. Dr. Bob: Yeah. There's a lot of work to be done. There's a lot of lives to support, and so we will have, you and I will have more conversations, and I would love ... I know we talked a bit about what came out of this conference in South Africa. Another podcast devoted to that would be wonderful- Debbie Ziegler: That would be great. Dr. Bob: ... because that would be very educational for people to see what's going on in the rest of the world and what we have to aspire to. Can you share how people can read more about the story and get more information about you and Brittany? Debbie Ziegler: Oh, the book I wrote about Brittany was published by Simon & Schuster, and it is available on all the major online vehicles that you can buy books, I mean, every single one. Amazon, all the bookstores. The title is Wild and Precious Life. I hope that when you read it, it will make you want to live a wild and precious life, because we just have this little bit of time, and we might as well make it wild and precious. I'm Deborah Ziegler, Brittany Maynard's mother. My greatest achievement in my life, my daughter, who I love dearly, was a great model of living a wild and precious life. I would urge you to read her story and benefit from it. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I agree. I second that wholeheartedly. It's a wonderful story. It's hard to read, at times, for sure, but it is a, it's well worth it, and I think you'll gain some really great insights. Thank you for writing it. Thank you for all that you do. Thank you for being here. It's an honor. Debbie Ziegler: Thank you.

Dr. Ken Druck's work in personal transformation, male psychology, parenting, and grief literacy has awakened readers to their absolute best selves for almost four decades. In this episode, Dr. Druck and Dr. Bob talk about healing after a loss.     Contact Dr. Ken Druck website Transcript Dr. Bob: I'm here with a good friend of mine who I'm excited to have this conversation with. Ken Druck and I have had many conversations over the years, most of which end up being fairly deep and a lot of insights come out of them. I think we're just both in this space of really contemplating life as well as death just because of who we are and our experiences. I'm excited to have Ken share some of his insights. He'll do that in just a moment, but I'd like to introduce him to you. Ken's work in personal transformation, parenting, psychology, and the literacy of grief has really helped people become, I think, their best selves for almost 40 years now. When you look at Ken, you can't believe he's been doing this work for that long. He's the recipient of numerous awards including a Distinguished Contribution to Psychology, Visionary Leadership Award. He has really a lifetime of service to the community. He's recognized really as a lifeline to people all over the world, to individuals, families, and communities through his work, which includes the founding of the Jenna Druck Center to honor the life and spirit of his daughter, Jenna; and we'll talk a bit about Jenna and the foundation that he created. Ken really has kind of set a new standard of care and healing out of tragedies like 9/11, Columbine, Katrina, and Sandy Hook, and I look forward to having him talk a little bit about how those experiences have shaped his life and his perspective. Ken has recently come out with a new book called Courageous Aging: Your Best Years Ever Reimagined. In this book, Dr. Ken explores the fears, some of the myths and biases in our culture about aging, so it's a perfect setup here for this conversation. In the book, he also kind of debunks a lot of the myths and offers a path to help people immerse themselves in the wisdom that we've cultivated over the course of our lives. With that introduction, I would like to introduce and ask Ken to say hello. Dr. Ken Druck: Greetings, Bob. So good to be with you and in a conversation, in a life and death conversation. My goodness. What a wonderful forum you've created to be able to talk openly and safely about all these important issues that so directly improve the quality of our lives and the quality of our deaths. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Well, I appreciate that. The inspiration for this really comes from life, from just being in this space. You're the same way. You're having conversations with people, both personal and in your professional life. I think, like me, there are many times when you think, wow, if somebody else had been able to listen in on this conversation, how much value would they have received, how much insight into their own issues and their own struggles and their own sort of triumphs. The conversations I have with my patients, with their families, with people like you, I think are so valuable, and I don't want to keep it to ourselves, right? I feel compelled and pulled to really allow people in on these conversations, so thank you for being willing to join in. Dr. Ken Druck: Thank you for having me. Dr. Bob: Yeah, absolutely. In your introduction, I abbreviated it. There's so much more, and I think we're going to have a conversation that will last about 30 minutes. I know that the wealth of information that you have and the experiences and insights could go on for 30 hours or potentially 30 days. It's going to be a challenge, but we're going to try to keep this concise enough, and then probably have follow- up conversations as time goes on. I posed some questions to you in advance of our conversation, and I want to jump right in. I don't mince words, and I don't pull back. I just want to get this out there because I want this to be part of our conversation, and I want it to inform and infuse our conversation. What are your thoughts about death? Are you afraid of dying? Do you have fear about dying? When you think about death, what comes up for you? Dr. Ken Druck: Well, it's a great question that does go right to the core. For me, the fear or the feelings about death are a moving target. It's not as though you run a marathon and you cross the 26-mile line and it's done. I think things that happen over the seasons and the course of our lives ask us or challenge us or force us to confront how we feel about death, and I'm no different. The death of my daughter 21 years ago was an opportunity as well as a tragedy—  the opportunity to face down my biggest fears of death. My daughter had died. I had to come face-to-face with that reality, starting with holding her body in my hands, in my arms, facing the idea that her life as we knew it had ended. I thought going all the way back to last year where my 92-year-old mother passed, and I had a chance to help her die. I think the things that happen that we react to or the losses we suffer effect and change and create opportunities for us to face down our biggest fears of death, to comes to terms with our life as it really is, life on its terms as it is, and to settle some of those fears. Now, are they going to be settled forever? Are we going to find peace or make peace and have peace forever and it's a done deal? No. Those concerns, those feelings, the sorrow, the love, the complex of emotions that come with dealing with death are going to bubble up and resurface. We want to make sure not just to wait for death to arrive or somebody we love to pass.  We want to be proactive and take steps to get ahead of the pain curve, to get ahead of the fear curve. Dr. Bob: That's awesome. How do you do that? I know it might be hard just to distill it down into a sentence or two, but how do you get ahead of that? If there's somebody who maybe has fear because of an experience because maybe somebody in your family had a tragic death or a difficult death and, like many people, you live with this underlying anxiety or fear about this mystery and when is it going to happen and how painful is it going to be. How do you think people can get ahead of that? Dr. Ken Druck: Well, I boiled it down to what I call the five ideals of courageous living and how we face down the fear of death. I've got basically five things that I recommend. Number one, stay humble, find peace in your unknowingness because there're  sometimes in life where we just don't know, and we have to hold that unknowingness in gentle hands rather than trying to force and will it into knowingness. We're basically part of something so big that at times it's unfathomable. The true nature of the universe—where life comes from, where it goes when we die—is an unfolding mystery. All we have to do is look up at the stars to understand that. The second thing is to cultivate a calm mind that allows naturally arising fears and doubts to come and go and learn to breathe and release even those primordial fears. It's kind of a form of surrender, and we can learn how to make peace with life as it really is by summoning courage, by facing in. Third is to take the elephant out of the room by opening the lines of conversation, just as you and I are doing today by talking about death and discussing our thoughts and feelings with people we trust. Fourth, keeping the faith of whatever we believe in our heart to be true or what we wish to be true. It's okay to abide by a hoped-for narrative without knowing that it's 100% accurate or not. We don't have to know with complete certainty that oh, here's what it is, here's the program for death, I read it somewhere or somebody told me this is what it is, or this is my sense of it. It's okay to keep the faith, to have it be a gesture of faith, to believe whatever we believe in our heart is true. Lastly, it's also just fine to have faith in a divine truth without apology or justification. We can do that while respecting and honoring the rights of other people who have different views or different religion or different spiritual path that they're on and a different view of things. Those are the things that I believe we can do to cultivate a courageous attitude towards living and to face down the fear of death. Dr. Bob: That's beautiful, so really this is universal. I mean, it's regarding any fear or anything that might be challenging us or limiting us in our life, not specifically around a fear of death, but that seems to be a big one for a lot of people, right? Dr. Ken Druck: Yeah. You know, Bob. We've got these brilliant emotional systems. They're as sophisticated if not more so in some ways than all the other systems that sustain life. We have this emotional system, which gives us internal signals, radar signals, from inside of ourselves, right inside of our hearts, showing up as our emotions. When these feelings turn up, it's our job to learn how to manage them, to decipher them, to decode them, to understand them, and to utilize them as part of our radar, as part of our self management, and to use them to our advantage rather than oh, that's a negative feeling, I better shoot it. That's negative. We've been brainwashed into believing that there are negative feelings rather than understanding that some feelings that bubble up and surface are going to be sorrow, fear, anxiety, worry, frustration, that we need to read these feelings, not become prisoners to them, but to read them and to have them inform us about what action to take, to inform us that it's time to vent those feelings. We're not built to hold them in steel compartments inside of our bodies, but to vent them in a healthy and constructive way and to turn those feelings into something good. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I think that's powerful. I think people need to be given permission to feel, right? My sense is that so many people when they start to feel something that might be uncomfortable for them, and this is a pattern that develops over time, they feel something, they don't how to navigate that, they don't know how to manage it, and so they just choose not to feel it. They turn away from it. Dr. Ken Druck: They become flooded. Exactly. They become emotionally flooded. This is particularly true of us as guys. We learned at a very early age basic training as a male shows us that to feel is to fail. If you're feeling something unless it's anger because anger is a good. Dr. Bob: Yeah, that's acceptable. Dr. Ken Druck: If you're feeling something, it means you're not handling it, you're weak, you're dependent, you're less of a man. You're less of a guy if you're feeling something because sensitivity and emotionality are perceived as signs of weakness. We got to fess up. We got to suck it up and deal with those feelings. We shouldn't be feeling those things. We become self-denying, self-rejecting creatures. We push our feelings away to the point that we lose our radar. We lose contact with our own radar. When somebody says, "Hey, what are you feeling?" We don't know what they're talking about. What are you feeling? You mean, what am I thinking? No, what are you feeling? How is this working for you? You just got a diagnosis, a bad diagnosis. How are you doing with that? When it comes to some of the most challenging moments, the moments of truth in life, relationships and our health and how long we're going to be here in our living and dying process, those emotions are what gets us through. Those emotions are the very tools and knowing them, reading them, and processing those emotions keeps us alive every moment of whatever time we have rather than us beginning to die emotionally long before our time and disconnect from those people we love. Dr. Bob: Yes. I get it. I think most people who hear this will resonate to some degree with that but obviously, it's not easy, right? Dr. Ken Druck: No, not to summon courage. Just like every other work ethic, everything else, there are times that all of us can look back and count that we summoned more courage, newfound courage to face into becoming a mom or dad, face into taking a job or starting a career or going to college or, even as parents, letting our kids go to kindergarten or sending them off to college. We had to summon courage. We have to summon even greater courage to face into some of the fears and some of the issues that arise naturally in the second half of life, including facing into our own impermanence, the fact that life is a package deal, we don't get to live forever, at least not in this form, and we have to deal with that. How we summon that courage is clear. We do it the same way we've done it before. We face something. We talk openly about it. We air out. We don't try to do it all at once. We strengthen ourselves. We get ourselves into game shape and improve the condition we're in, our mental toughness by doing this, by talking about it, by taking moments of reflection, by summoning all of our abilities to comprehend, to surrender, to let go, and to arrive in the season of life that we're presently living rather than dragging the past around and regrets, remorse, unforgiveness, harsh criticism. Rather than dragging, we have to learn how to let that go. There's a whole university and school of thought about how to summon greater courage because it is a process that occurs over time that we can all plug into, and it's going to be different for every one of us. Dr. Bob: I feel like there's so much incredible value in what you've shared so far. I want to encourage people, the listeners, to go back and listen again. There's no way that anybody will be able to take in what's been shared here in one listen. I really especially, well, the whole thing—but I'd also like to kind of summarize because I think it's so critical. There are so many people who find themselves in this space of despair, of feeling like they can't climb out of that place, it's dark, it's pulling them in, and they don't know how they're going to do that, and to give them those tools to help people understand that even if they can't look at their own experience in the times when they've found the courage to look at others around them, to see that yes, people have been in this space before, and they have found a way out. I think that looking at the whole of human experience and finding examples of people in your own community or that can inspire you. Obviously, if you can find your own inner kind of compass and go back and identify those times of your own life, you'll hopefully connect with that. I see people who have just lost somebody or they're dealing with these terrible challenges from an illness or an injury, and they say, "I can't do this. I don't have the strength. I'm not going to make it. I can't get through this." I help them see, if possible, other people have done this. This experience is an experience that people have had for thousands or tens of thousands of years, and people get through it. It's not easy, it doesn't happen immediately, but you are part of this human race. You have the same inner strength and capacity as anybody else, but I want- Dr. Ken Druck: I like what you're saying. I want to add to that. Dr. Bob: Yeah, please. Dr. Ken Druck: Asking for help. Help is the least utilized four-letter word in the English language. Asking for help. When I think about all the people that I know that I've sent to you for help, you have been an inspiration. Sometimes we can't do this alone. It's okay to ask for help, to call in support, asking others how they did it, whether that's reading... I mean, I wrote the Courageous Aging book so that people would have something to refer to be able to see how others have done it, how other people have tried to run from some of these things and fail, and how other people have courageously learned to face into whatever they were dealing with. So reading a book, reading articles. I think also seeking inspiration. There's music that I play every day because without words it inspires me. It's music that comes from a source of inspiration that's coming through a great composer, so I listen to music. There are all kinds of ways of nourishing ourselves, whether it's music or great food or walking in nature. I think what you said before about remembering the past seasons of our lives where we had great courage and remembering I can do this, look what I did. I can do this. Lastly, it's surrendering at times. There are times where we're standing in a moment of inescapable sorrow or facing into unknowingness or feeling emptiness. Those are moments where it's okay to surrender into tears. It's okay to surrender to feelings of helplessness and powerlessness. Also, that surrender sometimes takes us into a sense of what's beyond this life— of what I call the great beyond, the enormity, to have a sense that we are joining. Wherever my daughter is, I'm going to be with her. Wherever she is or isn't, I'm going to be there. Wherever my ancestors, those who have gone before me are.  And with those feelings, it's not only to make peace with ourselves, but it's to free up the next and final phase of our lives, which is paying it forward, paying the gratitude for the blessing that we've had, being given this life, being able to experience all the things that we sometimes take for granted. Being able to give our gratitude by paying it forward, planting a tree that we won't necessarily ever get to sit in the shade of, but that our children, our grandchildren, and future generations will be able to sit in the shade of that giving tree. That is one of the most important aspects of making peace and understanding that it's okay. Yes, it's scary. Yes, it's terrifying at times. Yes, it requires courage that I haven't had to summon before, but that I can do this, and I will go forward. This is the nature and the way of life. I don't get to play God, I don't get to live forever in the way that I know, and I surrender to it. Dr. Bob: It's no wonder why you are being asked to come and be with people who are experiencing tragic loss. You have such a gift of sharing that perspective, sharing the understanding of one who's been there and who has learned how to navigate it. I know that you would be the first person to admit that you're not finished with your growth and working through your sorrow that will never end, right? Dr. Ken Druck: It's okay. You know what, Bob, a mom once said it to me—she had lost her only son— and she told me after a couple of years I hadn't seen her. She said, "Ken, the most important thing I've learned is that it's okay that it's not okay." She said, "It's not okay. I reject the idea that my son had to die so young, that he didn't get to live out his life the way we had all planned. That was my dream, that was what I had put my heart and soul into. That was my future as well, and it's been lost to him. His life has been lost to him and to me and his father." She said, "But I've learned over time that it's okay that it's not okay. Some things in life aren't okay. I'm never going to accept that history as good." It sucked is what she said. "It just sucks that this is the way it is. This is the way it turned out. This is the way history will write it." She said, "But I also have found peace that this is the way of life. I'm not the only one who's suffered a loss of a child way before their time and had to face into the challenge of living out the rest of my life as an expression of love rather than despair. I accept that challenge and I've faced into it, and I'm learning how to live forward in my life and to make my life an expression of the love that never dies rather than to despair over the fact that my son died young." Dr. Bob: Conceptually it's powerful, but really in practicality, it is as well. I'm around, as you are as well, a lot of people who are anticipating an upcoming loss of a loved one or who have experienced the loss of a loved one. I think one of the most powerful and valuable ways for them to go forward is with the understanding that their loved one, their son, their daughter, their brother, sister, wife, husband, father, that they would never want that person, those loved ones who are left behind, to hold back, to be held back because of that loss. It's honoring those who have gone by living your life as completely, fully, forcefully, intentionally as possible. Dr. Ken Druck: Exactly. You and I talked about it, and I have my code of honor, my five honorings, and that is the core of those five honorings—that we somehow summon the courage to go on with our lives, to write new chapters of life even though they will not be here to write those chapters with us, that we're going to go ahead and we're going to live forward. We're going to go on, and we're going to make the rest of our days meaningful and purposeful, and we're going to keep our love alive by doing one of the other honorings, which is to create a spiritual relationship with them. What I mean by spiritual is that it's the unseen, unknown conversation we have purely out of faith. When I tell my daughter, Jenna, I love her every day, do I know that I'm connecting with her? No, but it's an act of faith. I'm not going to let that love go unexpressed. When I feel she is close and she's loving me and something wonderful has happened and she's celebrating with me, am I going to deny that arrogantly? You know, I know what life is, I know what death is. She's gone. That's not really her. I'm a delusional father. No. I'm going to allow that love to flow to me. The five honorings are writing new chapters of life; creating a spiritual relationship with them even though it's not what we signed up for. Survival, our own survival, is an honoring, finding a way to get to the next breath even though at times we are so lost and feel so empty and so sad; then embodying some element of their spirit that will live on with us. It could be their kindness, their sense of humor, something they loved. Whatever it is, embodying that and becoming more of that as we grow up and as we grow older. Lastly, it really has to do with how we treat other people, that we treat those people in our lives as an expression of our love because many families unravel at the time of loss. We're so raw, the emotions are so raw. After 9/11 we instituted a program that had to do with the way we treated one another and was an expression of our love for the person we lost, and it was called Take the High Road. Taking the high road, even though there's that rawness of emotion in our families and people want to resort to blame or who loved who or who did what. To step outside of that. Let it go, be forgiving, be patient, be kind to one another in that moment of rawness, and treat our families as an expression of love to the person we're either losing or have lost. Dr. Bob: I love it. Those are awesome, the honorings. For somebody who wants to read more about those five honorings, where would they find that? Dr. Ken Druck: They'd go right to my website. It's www.kendruck.com. They can go onto my Dr. Ken Druck Facebook page. That's facebook.com/kendruck. I welcome a phone call in our offices in Del Mar and San Diego. Any way I can be of help, I'm honored and privileged to be able to continue working with you on teams. You and I find our way to helping families together, and I'm always honored to be of assistance to families that you're working with that, frankly, would be lost without you as a lifeline. I'm so glad that we've had a chance to have this conversation to be able to share it. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I am too as well. Again, we touched on some really poignant and important topics and kind of scratched the surface a little bit. I think there were some really great highlights. Again, I think people will benefit from re-listening to this and having it be available. Your website has a wealth of information and support. Before we get off, I want to ask just briefly about your new book because I know that it's been taking up an enormous amount of your time, getting the book out, getting the book promoted, getting it into people's hands, letting people know about it. It's phenomenal. It's called Courageous Aging. I just want you to share a bit about the inspiration for putting this book together and just give a few of the highlights if you could. Dr. Ken Druck: Yeah, Bob. The Courageous Aging book wrote me. This season in my life, all the issues, all the challenges that come up as we get older, especially when we wake up and we realize that we've been sold a bill of goods, myths, and misconceptions about getting older and that many of our imaginings of our future are really saturated with dread and fear and cultural biases. We look at other cultures around the world. In India, when you turn 60, you're just waking up. Life is just beginning. For us, you turn 60 and you're on the back nine of life. Your life is over. You're supposed to retire and become irrelevant. Yet I'm at age 68. I've entered the most creative phase of my life. I've never been more creative. I'm writing books, I'm writing articles, I'm speaking. My work with people has never been better, more focused, more loving, more caring and compassionate. I decided that, as I have in other seasons of life, that the best way for me to learn was to ride the horse in the direction it was going and to write. My meditation is writing, and I write myself into greater awareness. I also share the awarenesses that I'm coming across, and then I'm learning from other people. Courageous Aging is really a formula for aging positively, successfully, in a robust way and reimagining our best possible future and creating a critical path so that we can realize that future. Every chapter deals with a different element and challenge of aging. The first chapters are a self-audit where you could actually test yourself. How am I doing on getting older? Where are my hot spots? Where am I struggling? Where am I doing great and soaring? We can take inventory because everything good starts with a little self-reflection. I think once we've taken inventory we can begin to focus and fashion our course to have our best possible future, and every chapter deals with a different element of what it takes to create that best possible future. Dr. Bob: Timing is amazing, right? I mean, there's so many of us who are moving into this space, this space of, I guess, aging and trying to figure out what does the future hold. How do I continue to find value, having meaning? Like you said, I'm not ready to hang it up and just start golfing and rocking on my rocking chair. I think that Dr. Ken Druck: By the way, you know who I'm getting feedback from? I'm getting feedback from 40-year-olds who read the book, 50-year-olds. We think of aging as an issue for people past 60, 65. The aging angst and biases infect people who are turning 30. They're dreading, "Oh my god!  I'm turning 30." The dread of getting older and the invitation to lose our vitality, our passion, our energy, and to kind of shut it down is there at every turn, at every turn of life and every changing season. It's no different for those of us turning 70 in some ways than it is for those of us turning 50. We all have to face it and really take charge of creating the future that we want rather than buying into the cultural norm, which is being sent out to pasture or having to give up things we love. Dr. Bob: I love it, and I would imagine that it wouldn't need a whole lot of modification to be really appropriate for and valuable for people who are 20, right? Dr. Ken Druck: It really isn't because you're going to be changing seasons. Dr. Bob: All the time. Dr. Ken Druck: ...and how you do that and how you go about that should be dictated on the basis of how you feel, not what somebody else tells you that you should feel or do. We all need to set our own course, and we change. That's okay. It's okay to grieve the younger version of yourself. That's all right. It's okay. Grieve it and then move forward because this new season, you're going to miss it if you're so obsessed with what you lost and what's past. You're going to miss the opportunity of this new season of life. Even if it's towards the end of your life, don't miss out on the best part of your life. It may be that the coming weeks, months, and years of your life, if you're given that, are going to be the best ones ever, so show up for it, be there, let go of the past, grieve the past self, and embrace what's right under your nose, what's right here now. Dr. Bob: How do people get a copy of the book? Dr. Ken Druck: They can go on amazon.com, they can go to their favorite bookstore and order it, amazon.com. If you have a Kindle or something, you can download it for, I think, 7 or 8 dollars right away, or they'll get it to your house in a day or two on amazon.com and, of course, it's available in the bookstores. If you have any trouble getting a hold of the book, just contact our offices or go to our website. You can order it directly from our website too at kendruck.com. Dr. Bob: All right, my friend. Well, I think for this podcast, we have moved past the time that I was anticipating, not surprisingly. We will Dr. Bob: Yeah. If you're open to it, Ken, I'd love to have you back another time to Dr. Ken Druck: Always an honor, Bob. Always an honor to talk with you and work with you. Dr. Bob: And you as well, my friend. I just want to share that I find you so refreshing. You are a brilliant, loving, compassionate servant of mankind. I'm inspired and humbled by the work that you're doing and by having you in my life. I want you to know that. Dr. Ken Druck: Bless you. The feeling is completely mutual. I thank you so much. I'm learning how to receive. That's one of my goals in this point of life is to open my heart, touch my heart, and learn how to receive. What's you've just given me is beautiful. I'm going to take that in and savor it today. Dr. Bob: All right. Beautiful, my friend. Love you. Thank you for being part of my life and thank you for sharing all this beautiful insight for our listeners. Dr. Ken Druck: Thank you. Love you too, my brother.

Alive Inside" is a wonderful film and movement that awakens the Alzheimer's mind and connects generations, comforting elders and rescuing youth. The film's Director, Michael Rossato-Bennett, shares how it all began. IntegratedMDCare.com " Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Contact Alive Inside website Alive Inside Facebook Page Transcript Dr. Bob: Today's guest is Michael Rossato-Bennett-Bennett, the director of the film, Alive Inside, and the founder and executive director of the Alive Inside Foundation. Alive Inside is a phenomenal film, and I highly recommend you find a way to watch it. The Alive Inside Foundation is dedicated to healing loneliness and disconnection in all of our lives, but especially in the lives of the very young and the very old who are living with dementia. They partner with communities to connect the generations and shift our relationship with life, aging and growing up. The Foundation seeks to end loneliness using empathy, music, life story, and film. This interview with Michael is an intimate exploration into the mind and heart of a man who seems to have stumbled upon his purpose and has been inspired to create in a much more expansive way since doing so. I hope you enjoy it. So, Michael, your life has changed pretty significantly in the last several years. From what I can gather, what started as a project that you couldn't really foresee a whole lot coming out of, to what has been created in your life now and looks amazing. What's it like? Tell me the journey a little bit. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Well, like every life, probably the most important things are your failures. Those are what you learn from, like your woundings, your emptiness, your hungers. These are the things that actually fuel you. When nothing else makes sense, I'm deeply interested in what makes sense when nothing else makes sense, and I think that's a very apt conversation to have in this time because I'm sure I'm not alone. I think if everyone were honest, they would just say right now, "What the heck is going on?" Dr. Bob: How did we get here? Michael Rossato-Bennett: How did we get here? How do we tell our children your president doesn't tell the truth all the time? How do we say your government isn't really trying to protect you? We're confused. I mean I am, and I have been many times in my life. I'm going to get a little philosophical here, but I think anyone living in a predatory culture that doesn't quite know that they're living in a predatory culture, has a feeling of disquiet and confusion, and like all of us who are trying to do something in the world, our efforts are constantly called into question. What am I doing? Am I helping create a just world? Am I helping create a world where life is recognizing and aiding life, or am I deeply investing in a system that is reducing the quality of life, literally for the planet at this time? I think every one of our occupations, from farmer to doctor, has to wrestle with these questions right now, what is my place in this world that we've created, and, unfortunately, we don't get to remove ourselves from it I don't think. Dr. Bob: It's interesting. As you're talking about this, and I don't know if you have children or not, but as you're talking about this, I'm flashing on my 11-year-old son, who is right at the verge ... If I asked him what does it feel like to live in a predatory world, I think he would know enough about what I'm asking to form an opinion and connect with it. But I, also, feel like he's still living in this other world where he can slip back into this sense of comfort and not allow that to influence his day to day existence. Michael Rossato-Bennett: I mean this is at the core of everything I'm working on, and it's simply the recognition of the idea that we actually do mature, that there is actually an arc to our lives. When I was 21, I was competing my ass off to win the steak knives at my job for Cool Vent Aluminum telephone salesmen. I wanted to be the best Cool Vent Aluminum salesman because the sales manager told me that I was nothing if I couldn't book these appointments for his salesmen to sell this poor, older people aluminum siding and new windows. Dr. Bob: And you believed that? You believed that story. Michael Rossato-Bennett: I believed it. Dr. Bob: Yeah, you did. Michael Rossato-Bennett: I believed it, and really, honestly at that point, all I wanted to do was be good, be recognized, to succeed, to have some validation, and honestly, I didn't think that the people who were in authority, that the people who were older than I was, I didn't think that they didn't know what they were doing. I thought they knew what they were doing. But your 11-year-old son, he's awakening in a world where it's obvious that we don't know what's going on, that something is happening, and it's amazing what's happening. I mean basically what's happening is we're going through a major psychic, intellectual, spiritual, existential definition of what it means to be human, and what it means to be human together, and ideas that we've had for thousands of years are no longer functional in the face of these incredible tools that we've created in the last 20 or 30 years. The computer has just turned human culture on its head, and we are not ready for it. Dr. Bob: Right. Michael Rossato-Bennett: And we're innocents, and I think in a hundred years we'll look back and this and go ... Just like slavery. At one point, slavery seemed to be a pretty good business model. We try not to do that anymore, at least in a recognizable form. But in a non-recognizable form, we haven't given up that business model, and that's what we're dealing with. I mean you're a doctor, and I work in healthcare to some degree as well, and Marshall McLuhan is a great media thinker, a thinker about media, and he said years and ... Maybe 60 years ago or 50 years ago, he said, "The medium is the message," and I never understood what that meant, but I understand what that means now, that basically, the structures that we create determine the outcomes, no matter who is in them, or no matter what the outcomes are. When you have a lot of people making money on petroleum, you get plastic in the ocean. It doesn't matter what people do. In 50 years, we won't be relying on petroleum. We won't have the pressure to create as much plastic, and maybe we can solve that problem. Dr. Bob: Well, so fascinating. Great perspective. Love it. Not exactly where I was anticipating the conversation was going to go, but I love it, and I want to hear ... So you take that. I'm sure that your awareness is continuing to mature, to evolve, and it's influenced by and influencing what you are doing day to day to improve the lives of the human beings that you're concerned about, as we both are. What's happening in your life? I want to know what you're doing. What's the Foundation doing? How are you right now serving in a way that is trying to achieve the most benefit for humankind? Michael Rossato-Bennett: Well, I mean that's a big thing to say. Dr. Bob: I know. Because it's happening. What you're doing is serving humankind in a positive way. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Right, right. I'm not young. I'm not a child anymore, and you get to a certain point in your life, and you ask yourself, "Okay. What can I do to help other people," because helping yourself is kind of boring after a while. It just becomes boring. So you want to expand your relationships with other people, and it's interesting. Dr. Bob: I lost you for a second there. You said interesting, and then I lost you. Michael Rossato-Bennett: I was relating to these thoughts. Okay. Sorry. All of my thinking comes out of working with these elders with dementia and meeting them. You're right when you say my life has transformed. I mean I walked into my first nursing home, and I wanted to run because I'd had really some very traumatic experiences in hospitals when I was a child. They put that ether on my face. I don't think they do that anymore, and I struggled and screamed, and yelled, and fought. They finally just gave me shots in my butt. But that smell of health care, of the hospital, I swore I would never, ever step inside a hospital or a healthcare facility, place forever. I promised myself I would never, ever do that. Then here I am. I had been hired to make a website for a guy who was bringing iPods into nursing homes, and he thought that it would be a good, new thing to do, and so I did it. There I was sitting in front of a man, Henry. He was the first one that I really saw the power of music to wake the hidden vitality of a mind, a mind that had lost its capacity to connect with itself and with others. I didn't want to be there. It was very sad for me to see this human being, this shell, if you will, of a human being, who didn't seem to be able to come out of that shell. Then we gave him ... Millions of people have seen this clip. Actually, over 100 million people have seen this clip. Dr. Bob: Really. That's where it's at, at this point. Incredible. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Well, it was actually one of the earlier clips to go viral on Facebook. So it was still back when Facebook was becoming before they put all these clamps and started monetizing everyone's life. It was back when they were giving it away so that people would join, and so it's a completely different animal now, and that's what we're discovering right now, and a very dangerous animal as well. But anyway, so here's Henry, and we give him some Cab Calloway, and I get to experience a human being awakening. This guy, he starts moving, and his eyes light up, and he starts singing. He starts making poetry. When I took the music away, I thought he would turn off like a ragdoll. Dr. Bob: Like a light switch going off. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Yeah. Like the electricity was going off. But, no, there was this residual aliveness and connection, and he talked to me, and he was so beautiful. The whole world saw this. I mean I went to bed that night and my son ... That I posted it. No, I didn't post it. I put it on my friend, Dan Cohen's website, and some kid found it and started spreading it in the Reddit community. I don't know if you know what Reddit is. Dr. Bob: I'm a little bit familiar with it, yeah. Michael Rossato-Bennett: It's a community of young people on the internet, and my son is in that community, and he saw ... He came into my room. He said, "Dad, they're talking about your film on Reddit," and I was like, "Really," and he goes, "Yeah. It's gone from 300 views to 400 views," and I was like, "Oh, my God. That's amazing." Oh, my God, and then we went to bed. We woke up the next morning, and it was at 180,000 views. On the next day, like a million views. It just kept going. But the amazing thing was, for me, I mean I thought we'd discovered the cure for Alzheimer's Disease. I was like, oh, all you got to do is give them music, and it makes their Alzheimer's go away. Then there's, of course, a sad realization that, no, you're just waking up some very deep pathways that are actually spared. They're pathways that are very deep in this elemental brain. Not in the forebrain, which is really the core of I think what I'm working with right now, and that is that when you don't know where to go, sometimes the deepest parts of ourselves hold profound and unexplored wisdom, and I constantly go to those deepest places, like music. Music, by now, it's part of our DNA. It's literally been adapted to our DNA. I mean a child, an infant, a human infant will respond to a beat and other primates won't in the same way. Yes. Dr. Bob: I watched the film a couple times, Alive Inside. I've watched it a couple times. I just watched it again last night. I was, again, just blown away by the little toddler who was conducting. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Oh, my God. Dr. Bob: The natural instinct in him, and he's a little performer. But I agree, you can see it in almost every child from the time that they're able to interact with the world, that they respond to music, and they've been responding to it since they were in utero. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Yeah. Dr. Bob: And that never goes away, unless you lose your hearing. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Which is another enormous problem. About half of the people who staff thinks have dementia, they probably have a little bit, but more, they have hearing problems. It's an enormous problem in elder care. So what are we doing now? At first, I was like, "Oh, my God, let's get everybody who has dementia their music, and let's make that happen." In some ways, that's happening. Michael Rossato-Bennett: It's hard to realize what we don't know, right, or what we didn't know. When I was making Alive Inside, we had so much trouble getting people to try this, to give these elders their music, and it was really a struggle because it was a new idea. But then the hundredth monkey syndrome kicked in a couple of years ago, and now this idea has literally spread like wildfire across the world, and to such a degree that I think ... I was joking with a friend way back then. I said what's going to happen is some day I'm going to say I made this movie about how you can play music for people that's their music, that gives them an emotional reaction, and if they have Alzheimer's it will awaken parts of their brain that have been forgotten, and I said in five years, I have this feeling that people will go why did you make a movie about that? Everyone knows that. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Right, what's so different. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Everybody knows that. We know that, and that's where we are. Everyone in the world knows this now. I mean I had some part to play with it, but it's that hundredth monkey thing. When something is important, and you have a disease like Alzheimer's where there is no cure, and if you have something that can help, it's going to spread like wildfire, and I think that's what's happened. Dr. Bob: Well, of course, it's very helpful for people who have Alzheimer's to try to awaken that and to bring them a sense of joy and connection, but it's, also, incredibly beneficial for people without Alzheimer's, who are just lonely, right? They're just the people throughout the nation, the world, who are isolated or limited in their own homes, or in assisted living communities, or in nursing homes. The ability to give somebody, to connect them with the music that has been meaningful for them at various points of their life, brings joy, brings comfort, brings connection. There's no way to understate the impact. So understanding that I'm curious ... I'm in San Diego. I have a concierge practice, and I take care of people who are in their homes who are dealing with end-of-life issues. They have dementia. They have cancer. They have heart disease. It's a small practice. It's like a concierge practice for people with complex illnesses and who are approaching the end of their life. As part of that, we have integrated therapies, and I have a couple of music therapists who go out. They're angels. They connect with the patients, and we see them flower. We see them blossom. Some of our patients, with these therapies, music, massage, acupuncture, reiki, they go from being bedbound, and miserable, and wanting to die, to get re-engaged with life and getting- Michael Rossato-Bennett: And it makes sense. Dr. Bob: And it makes sense, total, and I go into nursing homes, and I'll see people there, and we just created a foundation. We just got the 501c3 determination from the IRS, so we're ready to make this thing happen. How do we take advantage of what you have created to implement and leverage that in San Diego? Let's talk about how this is actually happening on the ground. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Okay. Well, first of all, you've opened up some really big cans of worms here. Dr. Bob: I have a knack for doing that. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Most of the people who have dementia and Alzheimer's, they are not in institutions. They live at home, and we have a culture that defines people as valuable to the degree that they're productive, and it's deeply ingrained in us. It's ingrained in our religion, and our morality, and our laws, even to the point where we've created lots of meaningless work, just because people want to be working, and the dark side of that, not the meaningless work, but this idea that we have no value unless we're productive, is the elders that you're finding. What is their productivity when they're just sitting? They can see their death, and they probably feel they're not contributing. As a matter of fact, they might even feel that they're a burden, which is a horrible thing for a human being to feel. One of the things that I've been so intrigued about, about people with Alzheimer's, is they forget so much, but it's strange what they don't forget. They don't forget what they used to be. They don't forget that they're having trouble communicating, and they used to be able to communicate, or at least it seems like that to me. You opened up another can of worms, which is loneliness. The UK just appointed a minister of loneliness. 40% of Americans report problems with feeling lonely. We're discovering the dark side of social media, which is this capacity that it has to make people judge themselves, their real life against the sort of phony life that's presented one snapshot at a time and edited and Photoshopped. People feel this kind of not being good enough, and when you feel not good enough, you feel separate, and when you feel separate, you feel alone, and that is one of the greatest pains a human being can ever feel, and that's really ... I had a very hard time growing up and a lot of isolation, and I shut myself down in many ways, and that's why when I saw this older man, Henry, wake up, I was like, "Oh, my goodness. Oh, my God, we can wake up. We can be awakened," and that's what you've described with your music therapists go in, and these people are like, "Oh, wow, yes. There are rhythms of life that I can share with you, and we can sing, and we can do music, and it can even go back into my memory, and oh, I have these stories I could tell you." I decided that the place that I wanted to play with was trying to reduce pain. Like you, as a doctor, you want to reduce- You want to reduce the pain and the struggle, and one of the greatest struggles that I see is loneliness and disconnection. I feel like our culture ... There are things we all need to survive, and to live, and to thrive, and sometimes commercial society says, "All right. You want those things; you got to pay for them." So it puts walls between what we want and what there is, and that's not really the way life works. If you swim in the ocean and you grab a fish, it's not like you paid for it. Well, you swam for it. That's for sure. Or you pluck a pear from a tree. It's not like you grew that tree. I'm not sure that this sort of way we are creating safety for ourselves is working, and I think it's falling apart in many ways, and so, again, I go to the very deepest place. So I developed these headphones that you could give to somebody with dementia, and it has a little hole in it, and you can put their music in it, and you can plug your headphones into their headphones, and so you can listen together, and your eyes can meet, and you can be in the music together, and I thought that was beautiful. Then I made an app so that anyone could sit with another person and try and figure out what is that deep music that's inside the soul of another person. So you can do that. But the key thing I feel is that what I've learned. If you watch Alive Inside, you see all these people awakening. But what you don't see is me on the other side of the camera going, "Oh, tell me that story. Oh, my God, you're so beautiful. Oh, yes, I want to know more and tell me. Flower. Let me see you flower." We are creatures that are called into becoming. You take a child, and you just put them in a room, and you leave them there for 14 years, you're not going to have a great kid, but if you go in there every day and you teach them how to be human, and you teach them the rules of being human, you bond with other people, you connect to them, you be kind to them, you look in their eyes, you learn to feel what comes out of another person's eyes, and you learn to give to another person through your eyes. I mean the eyes is the only organ that goes both ways. There are both receptors and apparently ... I was reading the other day ... I wish I could quote it better. But apparently, there's something that comes out of the eyes. That's why we call the eyes the windows of the soul. You're a doctor. Dr. Bob: I'm not sure what emanates from the eyes, but it kind of feels like when you're in somebody's gaze, when you're looking deep into their eyes, that there's something either reflecting back or coming out of it for sure. Michael Rossato-Bennett: At the very least, there's expression. At the very least, there are tears. Something is coming out, even if it isn't a ray. But that's the amazing thing that we're understanding now, and this goes back to the illusion of loneliness. We've created the structure where you can be lonely, where you can be a separate entity that doesn't connect with other entities, and the terrible thing is that's engineered. The truth is that we are not separate. We're talking over Skype, and my ideas are affecting your brain, and your ideas are affecting me. But if we were sitting in the same room for the amount of time that we've been sitting, your cells would be in my body, and my cells would be in yours. Every cell in your body I think changes every seven years, and the building blocks of you have been white people, and black people, and brown people, and hippos, and dogs, and ducks, and dinosaurs, and fish. I was reading this amazing book about old growth forests, like dirt. There's no such thing as dirt. There are rocks, and there's whatever, but every single piece of nutrition that has ever passed through your lips only has nutrition because vegetable matter has gone through the butt of a bug. Dirt is bug pooh, and without bug pooh, there is no nutrition in anything that grows. So we're not special. We are part of everything, and we've just created this system that ends up taking our children and putting them in these institutions, and telling them to stay there for 20 years and to compete for a few little remaining spots at some big colleges. As children, we're forgetting how to be children. And we have our elders, and, oh, my God, have we abandoned them. Oh, you're worthless. You just go sit in the little room over there. I'm sorry. Now you got a little emotion running in me, and so I said let's bring these two groups together. Let's bring the very old and the very young together, and what you do when you do that, it's like a magnet. These groups are meant to be together, and they're engineered apart. So basically a lot of people have seen Alive Inside, and they call me, and they say, "Hey, let's do something." I'm like, "Okay. Let's do something." So we're down in Mexico, and there are these abandoned elders, who are literally taken off the streets by this foundation, and of the thousands and thousands that they could help, they can help 250 a year or something, or actually more at a time, because the population changes, but it's only 250 at a time, and they were bringing in these young psychology students who sit with them for 14 weeks for an hour or two, and they detective. They use the app, and they find the music of these elders of their youth, and they listen to it together, and they learn their life stories. We've created another thing called Memories, which is this ... It's a very simple computer program that basically lets you create a digital, communally create a digital scrapbook for somebody. My vision is it's going to happen I the next year, is I want every hospital room, every nursing home, that you're going to be able to go and some volunteer will have created the life story for these elders, so that anyone in the healthcare community can just scan the QR code on their picture ... We're making these necklaces for them, and you'll know their life story in two minutes. You'll know where they came from, who they loved, what they did. Dr. Bob: I love that. Michael Rossato-Bennett: What their music was because it's just crazy. I've seen so many healthcare situations, where I've seen people care for people for 10 years, and love them, and not know who they were. Dr. Bob: Exactly. Not know a thing about them. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Not know a thing about them. Dr. Bob: Right. And that's what drove me crazy for years and years. I was an emergency physician, and I see these incredible people coming through, and they're a shell. They're in this shell, and if someone takes the time to actually connect with them and ask them something beyond when's the last time you have a bowel movement? Where does it hurt? But to actually be interested in who they are. I was just memorized, fascinated by what would come out, and that's a lot of why I transitioned in my career into doing something where I got to honor these people for the person they are and always have been, even though at this stage, it's physically they're different. The spirit inside of them, the essence of that person is unchanged from where it was when they were flying bombers in World War II, or dancing in competitions at 18 in the 1930s. And so what we do, I think we are aligned in the work that we're doing. I will want to connect with you further because I really do want to talk about how to bring the programs that you're talking about, especially the program with the youth together with the elders, and sharing this. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Oh, I would love to talk. Dr. Bob: So we may end up trying to schedule a second call. I'm going to wrap it up soon, and I just really appreciate your honest, thoroughly passionate view that you were able to share. I do want to make sure that people know how to get more information, and there will be links on my website to the Alive Inside Foundation site, and I'm happy to connect people with you. If you want, you just let me know. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Yeah. Dr. Bob: What kind of connections you're looking for, how we can help to support your passion and your movement because it's life-changing and it's revolutionary. It shouldn't seem revolutionary, because it's pretty simple basic stuff, make connections, and you create joy, right? Michael Rossato-Bennett: Well, I think it's revolutionary. We call it an empathy revolution, because certain things in our human vocabulary have been devalued, and a lot of people, myself included, it's taken long life journeys to be able to just honor the treasure that I have inside my chest. The fact that I am alive is such a treasure, and it's so devalued in our culture. The children, we don't honor the life in children. We don't honor the life on the planet. We don't honor the life in our elders, and it's all there is, and we only get it for a very brief time, and it breaks my heart to think of how many years I spent beating myself up and not enjoying life, and I look around, and I see so many people who are not able to really ... They only get this brief time with this incredible treasure called life. And that's why I bring the elders and the kids together because I think the elders actually teach the kids, "Hey, you're alive, and you're not going to alive for much longer, and look at me. This is what the end of life looks like, and guess what? I'm engaged here. I've only got a short time left, and I'm engaged." It's been shown that older people live with incredible pain and smile, whereas middle-aged people if their back goes out and they lay in their bed for a week. Dr. Bob: That's right. And they bitch and moan about how miserable they are. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Yes. Dr. Bob: Well, don't beat yourself up too badly about time that you've lost. You have lots of time left to contribute, and you're obviously doing a great job of that. So Michael Rossato-Bennett-Bennett, thank you so much for taking time and sharing your passion and more about your project and your mission, and best of luck to you, and hopefully, you'll be willing to come back, and we'll do some followup on another episode. Michael Rossato-Bennett: Well, thank you for calling me, Bob. That was very sweet.    

Bill Palmer has dedicated much of his life to helping people get comfortable with death. Hear why he has hosted more than 75 Death Cafes and what he's learned from them and the people who attend. Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Contact Death Cafe website Transcript Dr. Bob: My guest on today's podcast has been on a really interesting journey over the past several years. Bill Palmer is a successful executive coach and management consultant who lives in Oakland, California. After a personal experience with a loved one who died while being supported by an excellent hospice organization, Bill was inspired to come home to Oakland and start volunteering with other people on hospice. And then he began hosting Death Cafes. To date, Bill's hosted over 75 Death Cafes for members of his community up in Oakland. If you're not familiar with Death Cafes, you will be after listening to this very informative podcast. Bill has had incredible insights through many, many hours spent with hundreds of people openly discussing death and dying. From the very practical aspects to the emotional and spiritual issues. On this podcast, he shares some of the insights that he's gained with us. I believe this can help you become more comfortable having those meaningful and really important conversations that you should be having with your loved ones and with yourself. I hope you're as grateful for these insights and reminders as I was, as I was speaking to them. Bill, thank you so much for being willing to spend some time with us and share a bit of your experience and knowledge with the listeners. Bill Palmer: Sure you're welcome. Dr. Bob: You have an interesting life, I'm assuming. For some reason, you have chosen to dedicate yourself to helping people get more comfortable talking about death. How did that come about? What was the ... My understanding is that you're a business coach and that you're coaching people through different aspects of business and leadership. How do you become a Death Cafe leader from that place? What was your journey? Bill Palmer: The journey really started actually, quite a few years ago when my mother was admitted as a hospice patient in Florida. She received incredibly good care at the Hospice of Palm Beach County where she lived at the time. As a business coach, and as an organizational development consultant, I was struck mostly by the wonderful care that she and my family received, but I was also struck by the incredible business alignment and sense of higher purpose in that hospice. At the time, I thought it was unique. And since then I volunteered in several different hospices. I found that to be more the rule than the exception. Somehow, rather, and I don't recall exactly how I came across a guy named John Underwood who lived in London, and who was the founder of Death Café. It just seemed like a great idea to me at the time. I became a hospice volunteer because I wanted to give something back. It didn't especially require any special skill to be a hospice volunteer. Sometimes just sitting with somebody, visiting, doing a respite visit something like that. But Death Cafe appealed to me because I could bring to bear some of the skills that I feel I have in terms of leading groups and speaking with individuals in an open and honest and kind of free, willing environment. So, I decided I would take John's advice and example and do a Death Café, which is actually pretty easy to do. Dr. Bob: You have the model, right? He shared the model with you and ... From my understanding ... Tell us what a Death Cafe for people who don't really understand it. Bill Palmer: Well, first of all, there's a website called www.deathcafe.com, and it gives a full explanation not only of what a Death Cafe is but how to start one if you want to in your own community. A Death Cafe is simply a free and open ... Free meaning there's no fee to attend, a group meeting of people, whoever wants to come, who want to talk about any aspect of death that interests them. That could be anything from where do I get a will to, deep philosophical and religious concerns to, what are the regulations about scattering ashes to, my companion died 40 years ago and I'm still grieving to, my spouse died last week and I feel nothing. There's an incredible richness of experience and this is going to sound really strange, but they're actually fun. There's a lot of laughter in a Death Cafe. Some of that laughter is just nervousness about speaking about a taboo subject, but some of it is just appreciation of life. If I could make one generalization about the Death Cafes, people leave feeling strongly that what they're doing in their lives right now, whether they're close to death or whether they feel like they're very far away, takes on an added significance if they can find a way to accept the fact that we're all going to die. One thing that surprised me about the 75 Death Cafes I've led is the number of people who apparently, intelligent, responsible, normal people who actually don't really think they're going to die. Dr. Bob: They certainly act like that, right? Bill Palmer: Yeah. Like I said, responsible, taxpaying, voting, civic-minded people who don't have a will, who don't have an advanced care directive, who've never discussed their wishes for their care towards the end of their lives. It is just an indication of the power of the taboo that people who in most every other aspect of their lives behave quite responsibly. But in this one area, even after they see and hear about the chaos that ensues if you die without a will, if you die without an advanced care directive, if you die or become disabled, even after they hear stories about that, it doesn't seem to get them. Dr. Bob: Do you think that people are denying that they're going to die or that they just think somehow things are going to work out? They just don't want to ... They don't feel like they need to do the preparation because things just have a way of working out? Bill Palmer: Well, I guess on an intellectual level, of course, they know they're going to die. But I think on some kind of emotional level, like a child, they don't really believe it. But I think it's probably a little bit of both, is just if you've never sat down and filled out an advance care directives, and you're using a good one, I'd ask some pretty tough questions. For example, if you don't really know what resuscitation is like, you might think sure, resuscitate me. And if you find out what resuscitation is actually really like in many cases, you might decide something very different. Dr. Bob: Right, in most cases. I think people, they watch TV shows, they watch ER or St. Elsewhere, these shows that depict somebody having a cardiac arrest. They do a couple of things and then a few seconds later they sit up and everyone's relieved, and it doesn't depict the absolute horror that ensues when somebody's doing chest compressions and ribs are breaking, and there's virtually no chance of survival in the vast majority of cases. So, yeah, are those kinds of things discussed even at that kind of graphic level? Are people open to hearing those kinds of things when they show up for the Death Cafes? Bill Palmer: Yeah, I think so. Anyone who leads a Death Cafe, including myself, leads it with a very light touch. There's no schedule of activities. There are no small groups. There are no icebreakers or anything like that. It's just open conversation. If somebody brings that up, people listen, and I think people are affected by it. There is a great deal of information that gets shared. A common statement is, my family won't discuss my death with me. I will or someone else in the group will say, "Well, here are some great resources." The conversation project, for example, can give you some tips and guidelines and do's and don'ts for, how do you have this conversation with people that don't want to talk about it? It's not an easy thing. So, I think there's that and there's a sense of comfort and community and that people find out well, gosh, I'm not alone in this. Other people feel this way too, or are afraid of the same thing, or have had a similar experience. I think it's comforting to people. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Oh, it's rich, and like you say, it's a safe space. Interestingly, I haven't been to one for a bit, but when I went to a few Death Cafes here in San Diego, and they did break up into small groups like four people and then there were some sample questions to stimulate conversation. There was a little bit of discussion as a group. I think as I remember, representatives from the small groups talked about some of the insights that came out. But I felt like there were so many people in the room, there were maybe 50 to 60 people in the room, and I felt like we missed getting the insight from more people in that space. So, I feel like maybe the open format like you're describing could be even more effective if everybody who wants to speak has a chance to. Bill Palmer: Well, anyone who's interested in starting a Death Cafe can read on the Death Cafe website, very specific and clear instructions for leading one. I think that if someone is fortunate enough to get 50 or 60 people at a Death Cafe, that's nice, but I think it's an unwieldy number. I know that I've always limited the attendance of Death Cafe to 20. Even at 20, it can be a bit unwieldy. So, I think the smaller group dynamic works. I know I was asked to help with a Death Cafe that was being sponsored in a retirement community here in the East Bay in California. 40, 50 people showed up. Yeah, we split up into small groups, but it just wasn't as satisfying. It is just really difficult to manage. If anybody's considering doing it, I would strongly recommend that you limit the attendance. You can use a website like Eventbrite which is a free ... It's like Evite, or Eventbrite, one, they're pretty much the same. You can invite people to purchase free tickets, or just sign up for registration. Then you can limit it to 15 or 20. Dr. Bob: How did you go about finding a location? Because if you're there's no fee, I'm assuming you've done 75 of these, I'm assuming that you're trying to avoid spending a lot of your own money on these. Is there money available from any organization to help defray costs of putting these on? Bill Palmer: Actually, to be specific, The Death Cafe, you can charge a fee if it's to reimburse the cost. For example, if you rent some space or if you provide some refreshments, you can recoup the cost with nominal fees. I was very fortunate. There's a funeral home here in Oakland called Chapel of the Chimes. They have a long, long history of community involvement and a beautiful setting. They have a lovely acreage and their buildings are fantastic. They have a high commitment to community service. So, I called him up and I said, "Would you sponsor a Death Cafe? I.e. give us free publicity, give us free space?" They said, "Yeah, we'll do that, and we'll also provide coffee and cookies and donuts for you. Because it's right in line with the way that we want to be involved with the community." Death Cafe Oakland gets free space and a little bit of free publicity. They get 20 people a month walking in there who maybe otherwise wouldn't know about Chapel of the Chimes. They've just been great to us. Churches are likely spots, community centers are likely spots. Synagogues are likely spots, and funeral homes I think. There's an obvious disincentive for certain people, well, I don't want to go to a funeral home ever for any reason, but it's worked for us very well. Dr. Bob: Right? Well, my sense ... So, a great alignment, it seems like a great partnership as long as everybody's approaching it with the right intention, and it's comfortable. You don't want to partner with somebody who's going to be pushy and pushing their services. It sounds like that's clearly not happening. But the people who are coming to Death Cafes are probably the same people who don't mind walking into a funeral home. Bill Palmer: That's probable. Dr. Bob: You've got a bit of a self-selected group. Well, that's helpful. I appreciate that. So, you've done 75 of the Death Cafes. When was your first one? Do remember- Bill Palmer: March, of 2013. We actually had our 76th last night. Dr. Bob: Fantastic. So, you've spent 76, and then they're probably what, an hour and a half to two hours each? Bill Palmer: Two hours, yeah. Dr. Bob: Okay. You've had a lot of time to hear people sharing. I'm sure that you are well aware of some of the gaps and the challenges and the struggles around living and dying. Can you share some of the top insights that you've gained from the experience, and offer some of those to the listeners? Bill Palmer: I've thought about this a lot. Something that jumps out at me is that how we die in America is largely a function of race and wealth. Death Cafe in Oakland or the part of Oakland that we're in is a very different thing than a Death Cafe might be in a very different part of Oakland. That jumps out at me constantly. Another thing that jumps out at me is, we live in a secular world, many of us do. Certainly, here in California, at least in the East Bay, in the Bay Area. I'm not sure that that's a bad thing but another thing that jumps out at me is that the loss of rituals, of customs, and community, most religions supply ... Things are taking their place but if you look at the Jewish religion, or you look at Islam, or you look at Catholicism, really any of the major world's religions, Hindu, there are very specific rituals and customs around death that are a comfort, and that allow people to navigate or at least help them to navigate through what is painful and difficult. So, I think that a lot of the interest in Death Cafe and in the conversation around death, it's much larger than Death Café, is around some of the loss of those rituals and the lack of replacements for them. Dr. Bob: I started to write down the statement because I'm sure it was going to be something really valuable. Could you finish the statement, the loss of rituals, customs and community around the time of death has- Bill Palmer: Left a vacuum where people are alone. They don't have a way to navigate through that first, terrible few days, weeks, months. I just think it makes it harder. Dr. Bob: It's a vacuum, I can see that. So, people were coming to the Death Cafes in part to help to fill that void, that vacuum, or because they're afraid that that will be there? Bill Palmer: Yeah, I think on two levels. One is simply, what are rituals that I could participate in that I no longer an observant and fill in the blank. Catholic or Jew or Muslim or whatever. There are rituals that people have created in this country or reinvented in this country about dying at home, and how to care for the body of someone who has just died, against the medicalization and hospitalization, and institutionalization of death. So, I think it's both those things. Some of it is just information. What am I supposed to do? Where can I go to find some community around it? Dr. Bob: The practical issues that can really lead to a lot of stress and anxiety if they're not addressed or planned for. Bill Palmer: Yeah, exactly. Dr. Bob: Any other big insights that are jumping out for you? Bill Palmer: Unfinished business. I can't tell you. I haven't done an exact count, but probably in the 75 Death Cafes, we've had, oh gosh, 500, 600 people come through there. What I constantly hear is five years, 10 years, 20 years after someone died, that the unfinished business that I had with that person haunts me. I never forgave them, or they never forgave me. I had a sister, brothers, spouse, father, mother, son, daughter, and I never resolved what it was that drove us apart. To me, unfinished business in our relationships is the gasoline that gets thrown on the fire of grief. It just makes it all that much worse because you can't fix it once they're gone, they're gone. So, that's something that I hear over and over again. Dr. Bob: Do you offer resources ... it seems to me like ... I think one of the things that felt a little bit dissatisfying for me about the Death Cafes, was that there were people who are clearly looking for support and needing additional help and resources, and there wasn't ... Because it's not promotional, you're not giving out pamphlets or directing people specifically to resources. It feels like there would be an opportunity to bring in some experts and to have people bring in their specific questions to get that kind of guidance. What's the thinking on that? Bill Palmer: Well, I think the thinking is, and it may be flawed is that, above all, John Underwood the founder of Death Cafe did not want to commercialize. I've had any number of invitations from perfectly respectable, fine people who have a book, they have a program they have this, that or the other thing, and they want to come in and in effect, make a sales pitch. Under normal circumstances, I'd say that'd be fine. But I think it leaves us open to having to vet them, having to know what they say. My solution has been to, I've created a Facebook page for Death Cafe Oakland. I post resources there. If somebody says, "Well, gee, how do I start this conversation with my spouse?" I can mention the conversation project. I can also tell people to look on that Facebook page, which is open to the public. You don't have to have attended Death Cafe Oakland to see it. You can find wills, you can find an Advance Care Directive. You can find lots and lots of research. So, I agree with you that the one thing I do specify is that, and I say this at the beginning of every Death Café, is this is not grief counseling. So, if you're grieving, what I say is, please talk about if you want to, we will support you, but it's not grief counseling in the sense that I personally cannot offer you continuing support. Dr. Bob: Yes, it's not a support group. It's a forum, right? With a lot of people coming for different reasons? Bill Palmer: Right. I can refer them ... They can do a Google search as easily as I can on bereavement groups. There's many of them. But I agree with you, my solution is a bit of a compromise, and hopefully, it's workable, but probably every single person who ever came to Death Cafe Oakland who wanted a specific resource for a specific need sometimes didn't get it. Dr. Bob: You're staying true to a mission and that's honorable and it makes sense because you could open it up for all kinds of challenges if you don't keep the boundaries clear, and you're providing ... Again, you're doing this all as a volunteer, right? You have a career and you have to divide your time between things that allow you to pursue that and to ... I really applaud you, commend you for your passion and commitment to this. It's really remarkable. Bill Palmer: The irony is I get more than I give. I appreciate you for saying that, thank you. Dr. Bob: Just to quickly follow up on that, what have you gotten? How has it changed you to have this experience and to be part of this movement? Bill Palmer: Well on a very practical level, to avoid any hint of hypocrisy, I have filled out every form known to humanity with regard to my death, and I'm closer in terms of age, I've got a lot more behind me than I do ahead of me. I think that what I've gotten, the most valuable thing I've gotten about that is, if not an acceptance of it, but a clear idea of, if I have my way, how I want it to go to know exactly what I think is right for me in terms of end of life care. If I'm not able to make decisions or to be mentally competent, a great deal of faith in the agreements that I have with my family, specifically my daughter and my son, who I 100% trust will carry out my wishes should I not be able to act on my own. So, that's a huge gift, that really is. Just the incredible richness and variety of the people who show up, I'm always interested in groups of people. I'm never bored in a group because I'm always watching to see and hear and feel what's going on, and they never disappoint me. It's always fascinating. Dr. Bob: Yeah, I couldn't agree more, especially when they're talking about issues that are so vital and important to them. Do you still have any fear or concerns about what lies ahead for you? Bill Palmer: Sure. I think the idea of gradually losing capabilities is what bothers me and bothers most people that I talk to. Not that I'll be dead, but that I won't be able to move, or I won't be able to speak, or I won't be able to hear, or see, and then that gradual loss of capability, of mobility. Of course, I'm afraid of that. I've also been a hospice volunteer and seen people who seem to live with a quality of life, whose lost a lot. So, I take a little comfort in that. But yeah, that scares me. Dr. Bob: That is such an interesting awareness, right? That some people when they lose certain capabilities, certain degrees of independence, when they're dealing with challenges, some people are ready to die because they've lost these things and it's intolerable for them and they're ready to check out as soon as possible. Then there are others who just handle it with such grace and acceptance and even joy. I don't know what the secret formula is, I'm looking for it. Because I want to be able to A, have it for myself, and B, be able to prescribe it for my patients. But it's such a unique individual, I guess, a way of being in the world. I try to figure it out, but I haven't been able to, and I'm still working on that. Bill Palmer: Let me know when you do. Dr. Bob: Yeah, I will. You'll be one of the first ones. As far as ... I think most of us share a little bit of the fear of the unknown of what's coming. I guess one of the things that I'm really passionate about now is helping to give people a greater sense of understanding, a greater sense of control over the circumstances that they may find themselves in. Part of that is by doing all the right preparation, filling out all the right paperwork, having the conversations with those who will be responsible for making those decisions if you can't. But also, I think ... Do you feel like you have a medical team, do you feel like you have a physician who if and when things become really challenging or intolerable for you, will engage at the level that you need to support you through that difficult challenging last journey? Bill Palmer: Yeah, I do. I am a Kaiser Permanente member. And one of the criteria for my primary care physician that I insisted on was somebody who would not only understand my wishes about that but who would act upon them. The interviews that I did, I found a physician who I'm reasonably certain will honor my wishes. My advanced care directive is scanned into my medical record there... it's a crapshoot a little bit- Dr. Bob: A little bit, it always is. Bill Palmer: You fall down on the street and nobody knows who you are, and they take you to whatever hospital, the ER people are bound by law and by custom to do everything that they can to resuscitate you. Is there a chance it could all go sideways? Yeah, but I feel like ... I've taken every precaution I could to try to make it go the way that I want, and my physician she seems like she's just fine with it. So that's important. Dr. Bob: Well, let's hope whenever it happens, many many years in the future, she'll probably be retired, and you'll have to have a new person who comes on ... I guess that's a good reason to try to find younger doctors so that you connect with. Well, this has been great. I feel like we've given people a great overview of what the Death Cafes are designed to do, and hopefully given some insight into where some of the challenges and struggles people face are, and how to try to mitigate those. I appreciate your time. If you have any burning thoughts that you want to share before we sign off, I am all ears. If you feel like you're complete with what we've discussed, that's totally cool too. Bill Palmer: No burning thoughts, but I want to thank you for the time, and for your thoughtful questions and statements. It was great to connect with you and someday, some way I hope our paths will cross. Thank you again. Dr. Bob: Thank you, Bill. Bill Palmer, founder and curator of Death Cafe Oakland, and I'm sure our paths will cross hopefully fairly soon.

  Najah Salaam at one time feared death. Today, she helps those nearing the end of life. Learn how she overcame her fear and why helping others is so important to her. Contact Multi-Dimensional Healing website Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text.  We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Transcript Dr. Bob: Welcome to another episode of A Life and Death Conversation. I'm Dr. Bob Uslander. Today, we're here with a special guest of ... a woman who I've come to consider a dear friend, who's been part of the journey since we began Integrated MD Care. I'm going to introduce you and allow you to hear some of the insights and some of the beautiful, passionate words from Najah Salaam, who is the owner of Multi-Dimensional Healing. Najah's an acupuncturist, massage therapist, and truly a beautiful human being who brings light and healing to many of the patients in our practice. Najah, thanks for agreeing to talk with me today. Najah Salaam: Thank you, Dr. Bob, for a really sweet introduction. Dr. Bob: Well, I could go on ... I could actually use almost the full half hour or so that we're going to be talking just to tell people how wonderful you are and how much I've appreciated having you in my life, and being able to have you collaborating with us and caring for our patients. Najah Salaam: Oh, yeah. It's my pleasure. I love the work that we do. I mean, I could go on for half an hour about you, too. Dr. Bob: Well, we're going to shorten our little love fest, and we're going to actually get into a discussion. If you would, I have the honor of knowing more about you and your background, and what you do and how you do it, but would you be willing to share a little bit about ... kind of where you're from, and how you came to be doing the work that you're doing? Najah Salaam: Yeah, sure. I actually moved to San Diego in around like 2009 from the East Coast. I'm originally from New Jersey. At the time when I ... right before I moved here, I was working for a large marketing ... I'm sorry, an outdoor advertising company in New York City where I was the marketing coordinator. I was kind of at a turning point where I was feeling like this big push for me to make some changes in my life. I wasn't really happy with the work that I was doing there, so I wound up finding San Diego through a friend of mine who just insisted that I come and visit. It just grew on me more and more. I started coming out here. I think I was out here like four or five times, and then like the fifth time, that was it. I was like, "I can't go back on this plane anymore." That was it. I had to move. So with that move, I decided to make some major changes, and get out of the field that I was currently working in altogether, and to embark on something totally different. I had an experience with acupuncture back in like 2001 when I lived in New York City that was so profound that it just imprinted on me at that time, but I was so young. It was before I even finished my undergrad. I knew once ... like if I decided to go down the path of an acupuncturist at that age, that that was ... like there's no turning back. I felt as though I still had some unresolved things to do like finishing my undergrad, which I really needed to do for myself, so I decided to put acupuncture on the back burner in 2001. Then I finished my undergrad, and I worked in the city in New York City, and then it came full-circle. Then it became like, "Okay, now what am I doing because this is not fulfilling. This is not nourishing my soul." So that's when I decided to make the move across the country. Pacific College of Oriental Medicine, the school that I had originally had that impactful acupuncture treatment in New York, the school actually started in San Diego. So when I moved here and I was looking up acupuncture schools, it was a no-brainer for me to just go to Pacific College of Oriental Medicine, because that was the school that had resonated with me so strongly those years ago. That's what began my journey. I was at a better place in my life. I felt like I was more mature. I was ready for this next chapter, where if I would've started it back when I was about 20, I wasn't quite there yet. So I needed that time. I needed that time to really discover myself and to find the things that really resonated with me on a really deep level, and that, of course, was helping and healing people and just sharing my knowledge and studying and making sure that I had a lot to offer to all people. So that kind of began my journey here as an acupuncturist onto the four-and-a-half-year journey into studying Chinese medicine and all of its modalities and acupuncture and herbs. I graduated in 2013. So I've been licensed since 2014, and I've been practicing ever since happily. Dr. Bob: Well, it's a wonderful gift that you've found that. I totally understand needing to mature and needing to ... Timing is pretty critical. You found it a little bit sooner in your life than I did. I had my direction. I found medical school. I went into emergency medicine. I certainly was able to serve and support people, but it really took a lot longer to truly find that deep calling and listen to it and move in that direction. I'm glad that you found that pretty relatively early in life. You've got a lot of years left to be providing your unique blend of healing. When I was looking for an acupuncturist, I reached out to a couple of people who I trusted and had been in the acupuncture realm for many, many years at the university. I took them out for breakfast, and I said, "Hey, this is what I'm looking for to add, a phenomenal, heart-driven acupuncturist who wants to be part of this really cool collaborative team. Do you know anybody who might ... who you think might work?" The group that I was with, it was unanimous, "Call Najah," because they had worked with you. They had been part of your training. They had been how you interact with people. I think it was especially important that they saw you working with cancer patients and elderly people. When people think of acupuncture, I think in general, they're thinking of people who are younger and getting through sports injuries or just trying to ... part of a wellness type program. It may not be thought of quite as routinely in caring for people who are extremely ill or approaching end of life. Can you share a little bit about how you kind of moved into, I guess, becoming comfortable and passionate about working with some of the patients that we're caring for? Najah Salaam: It was quite a journey because I think when I first moved to San Diego, I was really scared of death. I had a really weird relationship with death, and with the elderly. I didn't have much experience with working with the elderly in that way when I first moved here. Then through my studying at school and learning about the spirit and learning about the energy, and how the energy that is in us, it just continues to move and go even if ... once the body is no longer there. It's like a never-ending life force that we all have, and really learning that. I became so comfortable with the idea of death and dying as it just being like another part of life. With that, it gave me enough ... I felt like strong enough and confident enough to go and work with a delicate population. So like when we had like the last year of our school, we have like your internships where you were actually going out into the field, and we have externships rather. So the externships, you get to pick where you'd like to go. So there are all different ones. There's like you can work with children. You can work with the homeless. You can work with HIV and AIDS patient. There are all sorts of internships or externships that you can do. The only ones ... I thought about it long and hard, on the groups of people that I felt as though I could feel the most ... like I can help the most, and I can really like give it my all and be really comfortable. I just kept on coming back to the senior center and then the cancer center. It was just something about being at that tail end of life that I found comfort in with just helping soothe and care for people that are maybe uncomfortable at that stage. It just felt like a natural calling to me. Once I've figured it out, once I figured out where I fit, I just kind of immediately went to the senior center and did two semesters at the senior center, and then I did three semesters at the cancer center, and then actually volunteered after I graduated there for another semester. Just, because it was a hard place for me to leave. I didn't want to leave there. Dr. Bob: I understand that. You said you developed a greater degree of comfort with the whole concept of death and dying. Do you feel like that happened as a result of these relationships and the encounters you had with these folks, or do you think that had happened before, and that's partly why you felt so comfortable? How did that come about?Najah Salaam: It's like a mixed bag, honestly, because like when I was young, I was thinking about this before, like my first encounters with death, and when was my first experience. I was like, "I don't know if I've had anyone." And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, yeah." From the time I was about 13, there were people around me that were dying, and not even dying because of old age, or they were sick, dying from just tragedy from a young age. So I was seeing ... death was around me. I was seeing people literally just being plucked away. So they were here one minute and then they were gone. That was kind of my first exposure to death, was when I was about 13. The whole time, up until I was about 27, it just became like this thing where it was like this big unknown. Then along the way, I started reading some books. Like my parents, thankfully, they're like very spiritual people. So they always had really great books at the house. They had one book, Conversations with God by Neale Donald Walsch. I started reading the first book. It was just like, all of the questions that I was having in my mind were being answered like little by little with each chapter that I read, and then reading future books. He wrote so many books, but reading later books as well, all of that started to really explain to me like more about this whole process. Even though I was still more scared about death when I was ... right before I moved out here, it was kind of like I wanted to know. I came here with this question. Like I really wanted to know about death. I had to ... because I didn't feel comfortable with it. Then while I was in my studies at Pacific College, I had a really great teacher who's my massage teacher, actually, Robert Leak. He talked in like energy. He was the one that started to really open up my mind to the whole concept of death and dying and the whole entire span of existence, so to speak. I had one semester with him, and we were always talking about energy. He was always giving us really cool tips and information. I remember one time, in particular, he said, "Let's all go outside and ... share energy with the trees. I'm going to show you how to do this." I was like, "Wait. What? What do you mean share energy with the trees?" He was trying to show us how there's energy within everything. So we all go outside in the backyard, like the back area of our school, and there's a bunch of little trees there that were planted. So he shows us how to do it. There's a certain way that you approach a tree, and you're looking to have the tree like invite you to come and share energy with them. It was like this really, really weird kind of like experience. Because I never thought that I would ever be essentially tree hugging. I never thought that I would be doing that. But in doing that exercise and learning how to just tap into the energy within you and then learning how to share that energy with another living thing on this earth was really powerful. So I just remember it like at that moment, I started to really think about like things in an energetic way that there is this whole chair. Then, I went to a yoga retreat down in Costa Rica. Then, I had a really profound experience there with a tree, believe it or not, this huge banyan tree. Our tour guide took us to see this tree because it was like ... I mean, you could walk through this tree. It was so big. I remember walking up to it and just being in total awe, because the tree, they grow up and then they have these like branches that come out. Then the branches grow down, and they reroot. So the tree just becomes massive. If you let it grow, these trees will just continue to grow. I just remember putting my hands on the tree, and it was like a flash hit me and I heard this voice that said to me, "What is alive in you is alive in me." That was the moment that I understood; I understood this energy that goes through all things. I understood that it's never-ending. Because I realized like it was such a profound experience for me because I had already had all these things about life and death and dying. Then to have this moment with this other being telling me that this is ... we share this in common, it's the same thread that's within you is within me, that's never-ending. Then, it was like boom. It was like a light went off. And from that moment, I was like, I understand. That was the moment that made me really understand that dying isn't really dying. So in my mind, I wanted to be around people that were at that tail end of life as a way to make them comfortable with the fact of this next part that's coming, but in my mind, in my heart. I always know ... I know deeply now that it's just a continuation. Just getting people comfortable enough with that continuation of life to me is a huge, huge gift to share. That's pretty much how I got to be comfortable enough that I would want to be with people at that end stage. Dr. Bob: That is so beautiful. I didn't know that story, so thank you so much for sharing it. That's really beautiful, powerful and it explains a lot. I mean, you have clearly an elevated consciousness, in my mind, as far as I can tell whenever I'm with you, so there's something, I think that tree, I think that connection that you made. When you think about it, the trees have been around ... they've been around longer than any other living organism, in terms of having been through the years, the decades, even the centuries at times, so there is wisdom there. And this energy, if you can connect with it and appreciate that, that's a beautiful thing. I recently was having a conversation with somebody who we're talking about green burials. We really want to try to help provide for better, more meaningful rituals around death. That's one of the things that we're going to be working on with our practice, is to not just sort of end the relationship at the time when a patient dies, but help the family and find the best ways to honor people. But in the conversation, someone told me that they had read about a gentleman who planned to be buried beneath a tree, a specific tree, because it was his desire that as his body decomposes and goes back into the earth as its elements, that it feeds the tree, and it nourishes the tree, which then will provide nourishment and connection with the world around, which I thought was a really cool idea. Najah Salaam: Yes. Yeah, I totally agree. Dr. Bob: There's another interesting connection... "Conversations with God" by Neale Donald Walsch was very profound. It had a huge influence on me as well at a time when I was really searching and looking. I had lots of questions about the meaning of life, the afterlife, how are we all connected. A lot of answers came forward in that book. So I'm not surprised that you had also tapped into that as well. Najah Salaam: Yeah. We both did. Wow. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Now you're working in a few different capacities. You're working with massage. You're doing acupuncture. You've had the gift of working intimately with a number of the patients in our practice as they've been gifted by having you as part of their journey. Can you share a little bit about what it's like to be working with some of these people who are really, as you know, that they're, in some cases, in their last days or weeks of life? What's it like to be in that space with them? Najah Salaam: Before I go to see someone, I'm like debriefed on their case, so you know a little bit about them. So you can't help but kind of paint a picture in your mind a little bit before you go. But then when you get there, every single time, every time that I've gone to a patient's house, no matter how sick they are, I'm always blown away by how much life they have in their eyes and in their spirit. Like, their spirit is really bright even if their body is really not cooperating and it's like pretty much failing them, they still have so much brightness around them. Time and time again, I'm pleasantly surprised, because everyone has that. Even when their body ... there's different signs of the body that clearly are showing me ... like the one patient that we had, John, and he had like lots of ... He had like edema down on the legs. So there are clear signs that his body's failing him, but his eyes were so bright. His spirit was, to me ... he was still joking and laughing ... He had just had so much life in him. It's been an honor to be around patients when they're at that delicate stage, and they're also vulnerable at that moment too. They're letting you in, which is a very ... I mean, that's something that every single time when I leave the patients, I am thanking the universe, I'm thanking God for giving me this opportunity to allow this person to let me into their most vulnerable moments. So, yeah, ... I look forward to every patient. Every time I go to see a patient, it is literally the highlight of my day that I'm invited in to care for someone at this late stage in their physical life. I'm always honored. I'm always honored. It gives my life more meaning and more purpose. It's, yeah, it just for me, all around, it's just a beautiful thing to be a part of. Dr. Bob: I love that. That's so clear in the way that you interact with these folks. That's part of what makes it so special and meaningful all the way around, is you're not just going in there kind of as the expert who's going to treat them and fix the issues. You're going in there as a person who truly appreciates and is so committed to making a connection and understanding what they need at that moment, and then feeling this sense of gratitude and appreciation for having been able to make that connection and receive as much as you give. Najah Salaam: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Which is such a huge ... I mean, I think it's missing. I think we don't have nearly enough of that in people who are providing care in our healthcare system. So finding someone like you is such a rare gift. I have seen the way that people speak after they've been treated by you. It goes so far beyond what might happen physically, the relief that you are able to provide through your massage or through your acupuncture. It's just been truly wonderful, beyond description, to have you as a member of the team caring for some of these patients. When you speak about their spirit that is intact and alive and that you're able to tap into, regardless of what their physical condition is, what's happening with their bodies, that's such a huge thing to be keeping a perspective on and aware of. That's really one of the main tenants and philosophies of our practice, as you know, which is why you're a part of it, is because no matter what's happening with the physical body, that spirit, that essence is still there and we can still help bring more peace and joy to that person's spirit. Najah Salaam: Yeah, absolutely. Dr. Bob: I go in and initially meet with people who it's really hard to find the ... It's really hard to tap into the joy in that spirit because a lot of people are just feeling depressed and dejected and uncared for and frustrated. It's understandable because their bodies are failing, and they're not being given the attention and understanding that they're looking for. People were trying to fix it, and when it doesn't look like we can fix it, then they're kind of giving up on them and putting them into the other mode, which is comfort only mode and essentially waiting for them to die. So recognizing that there is this space between where we can still allow them to feel cared for, to feel loved, to feel hopeful about making a connection with other loving, passionate human beings, that's where the magic happens. Najah Salaam: I totally agree. Yeah. So well said. Dr. Bob: We're teammates, right? Najah Salaam: Yeah. Dr. Bob: We get to go in and meet somebody. They may never have had acupuncture. They may never have had the kind of massage or skincare or attention that we're talking about, but once they come to trust that we are ... we truly are looking out for their best interest, and we're not making promises, we're not going to use acupuncture to fix ... to cure your stage IV cancer, but we are just here to make your journey a little bit easier, a little bit more joyful. Then, there's a real opportunity to make an impact. I love having you be part of that. Yay. Najah Salaam: Thank you. I'm so grateful that we are working together in this way. It's the best thing ever. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Well, I agree. Najah Salaam: Yeah. Dr. Bob: You're here in San Diego. In addition to working with us, with Integrated MD Care, we know you have some other activities you're doing. You have a practice of your own, which is Multi-Dimensional Healing. Najah Salaam: Yes. Dr. Bob: How would somebody find you if they're interested in talking with you about acupuncture or massage or whatever other services that you provide? Can you share a bit? Najah Salaam: Yeah, sure. My website is actually multi–dimensional–healing.com. From there, you can find my office location, which is right now in Mission Hills. You can also email me directly asking me any questions that you might have. On there are ... It's Multi-Dimensional Healing because I'm an acupuncturist, and, of course, I do massage as well. I'm also a yoga instructor and a Feng Shui consultant. So under there, there is information about all the things that are near and dear to me. You can just scroll there. There's information. My yoga teaching schedule's on there, and then all the other lovely things that I love to do, which includes doing events around town called AcuRhythms, which are acupuncture and sound healing events, which I look at as a way to provide a really deep healing using vibrational sound instruments combined with acupuncture to send the healing deep down within the body. We do them in group settings. That's like a passion project of mine. The schedule for those is on there as well. Dr. Bob: I've been to one of those sessions, and it was beautiful. I came away from that feeling infinitely more at ease and peaceful. Najah Salaam: Yeah. Dr. Bob: I'd like to do some more of those. Najah Salaam: I remember that. Yeah, totally. We're having one coming up I think on December 10th. Dr. Bob: Okay. Najah Salaam: Yeah. That's our next one. That one's in Oceanside, actually, Yoga Oceanside. Dr. Bob: I'm sorry. So Yoga Oceanside, and that would be on your website as well, the schedule of that? Najah Salaam: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Dr. Bob: Would people be able to ... like if I wanted to have sort of a private event and bring a group together, is that possible? Can you do that? Najah Salaam: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I mean we can do groups as small as one person. I mean, I do private ones all the time or as many as 12 to 15 people I could do by myself. And then my business partner, if she comes and helps me, Cheryl Davies, then we can like double that number. Yeah, all sizes of groups, we can do. Dr. Bob: Great. Wonderful. Then, I know that there's one other project that you're working on. You recently got married. Congratulations on that. Najah Salaam: Yes. Thank you. Dr. Bob: I know that's beautiful. You and your husband have another business that you've been helping out with. Najah Salaam: Yeah, we do. Yeah. My husband has a passion for food, so we have a food truck called The Groovy Greek. We are all around San Diego. We do all sorts of events like big festivals to private caterings for birthday parties, weddings, lunches. So we're all over the San Diego metro area serving up delicious Greek food that is really healthy, believe it or not. We focus on using locally-sourced produce and wild-caught seafood, and organic ingredients. So you should look for us around town, The Groovy Greek. Dr. Bob: Yup. You can probably find that on Facebook, right? Najah Salaam: Yeah, totally. Dr. Bob: You can get on there and probably like it, and follow it and know where you're going to be. That's great. I'm going to get on there today because I'm getting hungry. Najah Salaam: Yeah. You can find out where we'll be. Dr. Bob: All right. Well, Najah, it was such a pleasure to have this conversation with you, as always. Najah Salaam: Yeah. Likewise. Likewise. This was very, very special. Dr. Bob: Yeah, I love being able to introduce you to a wider audience of people who can learn a bit about how to look at life through your beautiful very, very conscious eyes. So thank you for the beautiful work that you do. Thank you for being part of my team. Najah Salaam: Absolutely. Thank you. Dr. Bob: All right. We'll see you soon. Najah Salaam: Okay. All right. Bye-bye. Dr. Bob: Thanks for listening, everybody. Najah Salaam: Yes. Dr. Bob: Take care.

Derek Humpry is an author and principal founder of the Hemlock Society (now Compassion & Choices). Derek shares his poignant story about helping his wife, who was terminally ill, end her life and how he founded the Hemlock Society.     Derek's website: FinalExit.org Transcript Dr. Bob: Welcome to A Life and Death Conversation with Dr. Bob Uslander. I'm very excited to introduce you to today's guest, who is a gentleman who I recently had the pleasure of meeting and listening to during a presentation at a conference. And I just knew when I met and heard him speak that he is somebody who you needed to hear from. I could go on for quite a long time listing his achievements and his accolades in this introduction, but I don't want to take too much of our valuable time away from the conversation, so I will just give a little glimpse of the instruction to Mr. Derek Humphry, who is the founder of the Hemlock Society of the USA, past president of the World Federation of Right to Die Societies, and Derek has been an incredibly strong proponent of people having the ability to determine how and when they their lives will end when they are struggling. He's been very active through his entire life in this regard and is in large part responsible for the movement through in this country that is certainly effective here on the West Coast, in California, in Oregon, in Washington that has allowed people to have a peaceful end of life. And I owe him gratitude because he has allowed me to delve into a part of my career that has really been incredibly gratifying, and he's brought great relief to many, many people around the world. So, Derek, I just want to introduce you and thank you from the bottom of my heart for all that you've done. So welcome. Derek Humphry: Well, hello. Thank you very much for inviting me. It's been a worthwhile journey. I founded the Hemlock Society in 1980 when I lived in Santa Monica and developed it from there. And it was, I didn't do it in any obviously pioneering way thought, but it proved to be the start of the right-to-choose-to-die movement in America as we grew and grew and fought off our critics and published little books and held conferences, the right-to-choose-to-die movement swelled and improved across America ever since 1980. Dr. Bob: So let me ask, how did this all start? I know, and I heard the story, but I'd like people to hear where this movement originated and how it started for you. Derek Humphry: Yes. I was living in London. I was a reporter on the London Sunday Times. And I had a good marriage, a wife, and three sons, and we were getting along fine. And it's great fun bringing up three sons. But suddenly in 1973 my wife, Jean, said that she had a lump in her breast. We rushed her to the hospital, and various testing and so forth. And they had to perform a radical mastectomy, much to her shock and all of our shock. She recovered from that as best she could, but we have further testing of her lymph nodes and blood count and all the rest of it. And it showed that she had cancer deep in her system. It was too late. But we fought, and she fought, took all medical help available, kept her spirits up looking after the family and so forth. She kept it only in a close circle of friends or family did she say that she had cancer. But in about a year it turned to bone cancer, very painful, very difficult to be moving at all except with heavy pain medications. And then after nearly two years, it was really serious, and she nearly died. She was in the hospital in Oxford, England, getting the best treatment that was available back in 1975, and she recovered from one bout, and the doctor thought she wouldn't come out of that. But she did, and she had a fighting spirit. Then came my epiphany. She sat up in bed feeling pretty well in the hospital bed, and I was visiting her. And she said, "Derek, I want you to do something for me." I said, "What's that?" She said, "I've had enough of this pain and unconsciousness. It's getting near the end. I want to die at home. I don't want ..." She took hospitals pretty well, but she was in the cancer ward, and she'd seen too many people die with the families rushing in in the middle of the night to say their goodbyes and a lot of pain and tears. She said, "I want to die at home. I also want to end my life at the point when I feel the quality of my life is gone and that there's no more hope and no more chance of living. And I want you to help me." There wasn't a right-to-die movement in America or Britain to speak of. There were little token meetings, but it was not a subject of public discussion or knowledge. I think I would have had to go to a dictionary to look up the word euthanasia or so forth. I said, "What do you want me to do?" She said, "I want you to go ..." In a way, she prefigured the laws. She didn't know she was doing this, prefigured the laws that are coming into place in six states in America. And she said, "I want you to go to a doctor, explain what the situation is, and ask him for lethal drugs in which at the time of my choosing, I'm not ready yet, but it won't be far off, time of my choosing, I want to be able to take my life immediately in my bed at home with family nearby and so forth." I said instinctively, I know I didn't philosophize about it or ... "Okay. I'll help you." And- Dr. Bob: Do you recall what your initial reaction was to that? Of course, you wanted to be supportive, but did you have ... Do you remember how you felt about doing that at the time, conflicted? Derek Humphry: I remember saying to her, "If I was in your position, I would be asking you the same," so that I comforted her by saying, "We're on the same wavelength." I didn't want her to die at all, but having seen her pain and suffering for the last two years, well, understood why she would ask. She was a very strong, independent woman and knew her own mind. She'd seen her mother die about 10 years earlier of lung cancer, and she had to be with her father at her mother's bedside. I wasn't there. I was looking after the children somewhere else. The mother died an awful death apparently. She didn't realize she was dying, and the pain control was terrible. If I'd known about it at the time, I would have lodged a complaint against the doctor. But I wasn't on the scene. But this obviously triggered in Jean that when her time was closing, that she was going to do it differently than her poor mother had dealt with it. So I went to ... I puzzled over what I should do, how to get the drugs, and I thought, "I don't want to involve her own GP or lead cancer specialist in Oxford." I didn't feel it was right to involve them. They were good people, good men, and women, very helpful, but I've been a journalist in London. I knew a certain doctor who we'd worked on stories about medicine before, and I thought, "That's the fellow." So I went to see him, took him to dinner, and I said to him, told him what the situation was, and he questioned me closely about Jean's illness, the state it was, what we'd been through, roughly what sort of medications and so forth, and where she was. He turned to me and said, "She has no quality of life left. I will help." And he gave me the lethal drugs with which to; she could end her life. We shook hands on the bargain that I would never reveal his name, that that would be secret, and it's been secret to this day, although people have asked me who he was. I took the drugs home. I said to Jean, "I have the drugs. They're locked away in the medicine cabinet out of the way." And we got on with life, and she got on with life as best she could. She took another chemotherapy, which gave some momentary relief. And we had a happy Christmas in the end of 1974; I think that was. And then but by February, March, she was very, very ill and taking a great deal of what in England they call hospice mix. No, in America they call it hospice mix. In England, it's called Brompton cocktail. It's a mixture of drugs that suit one's particular illness. It's a sort of trial and error until the doctors can work out what this particular patient handles best. So we had that. And we continued, and things got worse. Then her ribs broke in a sort of accident, and that seemed to be her benchmark. She couldn't get to the bathroom anymore. She could hardly move. She couldn't get up in bed without a massive amount of painkillers. She couldn't sit up in bed. And I knew the end was coming, and I knew this question was going to come, so I was thinking about it but saying nothing. Then one day I got her to sit, managed to get her to sit up after taking the pain medications, and she calmly turned to me, and she said, "Is this the day?" That's a pretty rough question to answer when you're the ... We'd been married for 22 years and three children and had a happy life together. And I sort of gulped and said, "Well, if the pain is getting worse, you'll probably have ..." I was sort of stalling for the moment. I didn't want to rush an answer. "You'll probably have to go back into the hospital at the end of the week for more pain relief." And she said, "I'll die at one o'clock today." And so that was ... She was a very outspoken north country English woman and- Dr. Bob: Knew her mind. Derek Humphry: ... we talked all morning, and we shared our memories. The marriage had been very solid, but we'd had two quarrels, one over which house to buy and one over my moving to London from Manchester. We'd settled them, but she brought them up, and she said, "Well, I was right about the house, and you were right about moving to London." So we settled the two quarrels that we had. And she told me to go tell her father what had happened so that it wasn't like her mother's death, that hers was much more straightforward. At one o'clock, if she hadn't said, "Get it," I would have just continued talking. I left it, the initial movement, I left up to her. At one o'clock she said, "Go and get it." So I went and got the doctor's drugs, mixed them in a cup of coffee, put a lot of sugar in, and brought it back to her. I told the boys were lying around in the house. The previous evening Jean had sent me on a fool's errand to get something from the supermarket, and during that, my absence, she called in the boys and told them that she was going to die tomorrow. I was not part of that. She wanted me out of it for that communication with her sons. Dr. Bob : How old were the boys at that point, Derek? Do you recall? Derek Humphry: Sort of 17, 18, 19. I can't remember exactly. Dr. Bob: So young men. They were- Derek Humphry: But late teens. Yes, young men. And they'd seen her suffering. They'd helped me nurse her, helped. When I was absent, they would provide her drugs and things like that. They knew the situation, and they knew their mother was a determined woman. If she said something was going to happen and she was going to do, then she was going to do it. So I took the drugs in to her. As I passed through the living room, I said to the boys, "She's preparing to die," so that they were up to mark on it. I put the drugs down beside her, and she said, "Is that it?" I said, "Yes. If you drink that cup of coffee, you will die." She accepted that. I got on the bed and gave her a last hug and a kiss. We said our goodbyes. I got back on my chair so that she could lift the coffee straight up without ... And she picked up the mug of coffee and gulped it down, drink it down. And I sat there watching in awe. And before she passed out, she said, "Goodbye, my love." And that was it. She lingered for a while. Then she vomited a little, which frightened me. I thought, "Oh, dear." I didn't know at the time that right to die was not a subject of ... I never investigated closely or not ... She should've taken some antiemetics. Dr. Bob: As we do now. Derek Humphry: ... to prepare the stomach for that extremely toxic drug that was going to kill her. Anyway, she didn't vomit all that much. And she just quietly died. Dr. Bob: Were the boys with you at the time? Were they in the room or were they? Derek Humphry: No. They were in the next room. But when I went out of the room, I know they went into the room when she was dead and apparently said goodbye to their mother, and after my presence. And I called the local GP who looked after her for about two years and told him that Jean was dead. And he came out. He said, "I'll be around in an hour or so and sign the death certificate." When he came in and looked at her, and I kept out of the room deliberately. I didn't want to muddy the waters in any way or whatnot. And I was out in the garden, but he wrote down death from carcinomatosis, massive cancer. If he'd wanted to speak to me, I was there in the garden, and he could've called and said, "I want to talk to you, Derek," but he didn't. And he thought it was a natural death from her powerful cancer. Dr. Bob: Which it would've been before too long had she not taken this step. Derek Humphry: Yes. Dr. Bob: But it would've come after quite a bit, potentially quite a bit more struggle and suffering, right? Derek Humphry: Yes. Well, certainly she would've been dead within a month. That was definitely on the cards. Her doctors had told me that they would look ... They'd say, "She can come in to Oxford Hospital, and we'll look after her, or she can die at home." And I said, "She wants to die at home." And they said, "Fine. We'll provide as much comfort as we can." So that was how it ended. Dr. Bob: And that was 40 ... How old was she? Derek Humphry: She as 42. Dr. Bob: And that was 43 years ago, 1974. Derek Humphry: Yes. Dr. Bob: So 43 years ago. It sounds like you can ... I know that you've told this story not just a few times over the years, but it sounds like you can almost, it's almost like it was yesterday. You seem so clear that you can recollect the details so clearly. Derek Humphry: Yes. And she was so clear. She wasn't one who would aggravate over things. She wouldn't ... She'd talk things over, "What is this? What is that?" We'd had a pact that when she first asked me to help her that it would be a joint decision. She said, "I could be made woozy by all these drugs." And she said to me, "Back at the first opening of this, she said, "If I'm asking to die at the wrong time because there's been a cure for cancer or if there's more to do, don't help me. It's a joint decision." And so I went along with that. You have to stand by your partners at the worst of times. Dr. Bob: Well, she certainly sounded like she was very clear and wasn't hesitating at the time. And her strength, and her fortitude, and her clarity have had such a significant impact on many lives from that. Had she not made that decision, had she not asked you to support her in this way, it's hard to know what would have transpired and how the right-to-die movement might or might not have developed over time. So can you share how things developed from that point and how her gentle and peaceful death ended up leading to the next steps for you? Derek Humphry: Well, I had written. I was, what, 45 at the time, and I had published three non-fiction books, had modest effect with them. So I was a published author. So I decided to write a little book about this. I was rather ... I studied the subject after Jean died--no, before and after. And I went into the library of the Times of London, and I read up all the assisted suicide cases for the last 50 years. And what struck me was that here were spouses, male and female, dragged into court. Assisted suicide was and is a crime in Britain. And I was shocked by what I read in modern history about this. And what really struck me was that these people that I could see were never sent to prison although they were vulnerable to 12 years in prison, the maximum sentence. But the judge would always say, "You've done wrong, but it was done in a spirit of compassion." Then he would suspend the sentence or put them on probation and things like that. I thought, "Well, this is a wrong law." If it's a crime, well then it should be punished as a crime. But this is not a crime, and it should be modified." So that got my dander up. And so I wrote a little book called Jean's Way in which I told the truth, the harsh truth of what had happened, the good things, the good times, and the bad times, and how Jean had handled it and so forth, and about the doctor, whose name I did not release. And when I took the book 'round to several publishers in London, nobody would publish it. Even though I was already a published author and staff writer at the London Sunday Times, they said, "Oh, no. It's too harrowing. Oh, no, it'll make people cry." And my own editor, Harry Evans, the great editor, he looked at it, considered it, and he said, "No, I don't want my readers crying on Sunday morning." And I said, "What's wrong with a good cry for genuine reason? This is part of human life." But he wouldn't. He wouldn't publish it. Anyway, I found a little publisher who was willing to take the chance, and they published it. And the entire book was sold out in a week. In five days it was gone. The public snapped it up, and I sold the paperback rights, and the Norwegian rights, and the Japanese rights, and Spanish rights. So the publishers and my editor were wrong. People do want to read genuine cases about this, sincere cases. And a huge amount of the public is interested in peaceful and careful dying. So that was that. Then I moved to America to work for the Los Angeles Times. I wanted to change, and the book became very controversial, and I was invited onto lots of television shows, the Donahue Show. All of the big afternoon television shows, all of them invited me on to talk. And it began to stir interest, and I began to get huge mail from people, and they could reach me at the Los Angeles Times. They would just write, "Derek Humphry, Los Angeles Times, Los Angeles," and that would get me. And people said to me, what are you going to do about this? And I said, "Well, I'm thinking," and this question kept coming up. And so I began to feel, "Well, I'll set up an organization to help people as best we can and long term to change the law so that this could be done thoughtfully, legally by willing doctors according to law and guidelines. And so I set up the Hemlock Society in August of 1980, announced it at the L.A> press conference. I remember one reporter said to me, "Are you going to be in the yellow pages?" I said, "Of course. This is not going to be a covert organization. This is going to be straightforward. But we're not going to break any laws if we can help it. We're not that way. We're in the business of changing laws." But meantime I wrote a little book called Let Me Die Before I wake, which a guide to how to do it yourself. This first book was on the right today, well, second if you call Jean's Way as one. It was true cases of people dying, taking their lives, and what drugs they used, and how they handled it. I went around America interviewing people who were willing to talk to me about the death of a spouse or a child. And I gathered these stories together, published it in a little book, which sold continuously for the next 10 years to mostly members. It wasn't a bookstore book; it was people heard of the Hemlock Society, and I did a number of radio and television programs. Gradually the membership at Hemlock Society grew from nothing to 47, and I had a- Dr. Bob: 47? Derek Humphry: Yeah. I had a- Dr. Bob: It's interesting. I meet people in my practice, and many of these older residents of these community are card-carrying long-term members, and they're so proud of it. These are people who are very successful, intelligent, and they're the folks who have always been able to kind of be self-determining and not just accept what is being handed to them but want to really determine the course of their lives. I don't see as many younger people, and you can share your thoughts on this and what's happened since, but not as many younger people seem to be connecting and kind of opening themselves up to this sort of connection because the people who are the older people who are these long-term members of the Hemlock Society, they had to find out it and join when they were about my age in their 40s and 50s. I don't hear a lot of 50- and 40-year olds these days engaging in this conversation, which is interesting. It's mostly the older folks who are looking more- Derek Humphry: I don't agree with you there. Dr. Bob: That hasn't been your experience? Okay. Derek Humphry: My experience is different. I have two websites. I have a blog, and I have a Listserv, and I find that the ratings of people, it varies a great deal. I get an uncomfortable amount of students approaching me, wanting to interview me and to know background, and so forth because they're writing projects on it all over America. And I get some end of term or so forth, I get swamped with these. So I think there is fairly across the ages group of support, true most support from people over 50, and that's very often because they've seen their parents or grandparents die in circumstances that they would not want for themselves. Dr. Bob: That makes complete sense. Derek Humphry: Whereas young people have probably not. Thank goodness they've not seen loved ones die. But we older people, of course, have, so and- Dr. Bob: I appreciate that perspective. I appreciate ... Obviously, you've been in this world for longer and are very tapped in to it. So I appreciate knowing that from in your experience, that there are people across the age ranges who are paying attention and supporting. So what happened with the Hemlock Society? I know that there were changes that occurred. Derek Humphry: Yes. Well, because the movement grew bigger, and other organizations formed. Ten years after I formed the Hemlock, Dr. Kevorkian came on the scene with his very controversial tactics and actions. And of course, the media were fascinating with Kevorkian. I mean, they'd never heard of a doctor with a suicide machine that killed patients on request. So he got an enormous amount of ... far more publicity than I got. I washed with interest. In terms of informing, because a lot of people only watch television, and they don't tend to read books and papers, and that's their choice. So suddenly Kevorkian offers so many television appearances. We're telling people about the right to choose to die, and he helped directly with drugs 130 people to die and could have going on doing that. He was twice charged with assisted suicide, and the juries wouldn't convict him. He was acquitted. But then he wanted to make it a bigger impact. He believed that all this publicity would make the medical profession change its mind about assisted dying. He was wrong, but he persisted, very persistent, tough man. And he performed active voluntary euthanasia, a man ,very sick man came to him and asked to be helped to die. The family was behind him, and he was a very, very ill man And when Kevorkian ended his life, this man's life by injection, and he filmed it, and he got 60 Minutes to put it on film, and on the 60 Minutes program, Kevorkian looked down at the camera and pointed his finger, and then said to the district attorney of his area up at Michigan, "Either you prosecute me, or I've won." Very [defact 00:36:24], strong ... He threw down the gauntlet to the legal people, who were not going to prosecute him again. They've got fed up with him. But this time they had to take him to court because he was such a defiant act. And they were willing to look past assisted suicide, but death by injection, they were not. That was ... They charged him with manslaughter and second-degree murder. And he was convicted. He'd overstepped the mark because of assisted suicide before the courts, you can plead ... It was something you had to do, something that was by choice and by agreement. Although it's strictly it's against the law, juries accepted that when they heard the cry is from the family and what the dead patient had said and so forth. Now, with second-degree murder, you cannot bring evidence of compassion and sympathy. That's not allowed in Britain and America under a murder charge. You either did it, or you didn't do it. You can't say, "He asked me to kill me." You can't say, "I did it for a good reason." That argument, the judge will immediately stamp on any argument, and he has to. That's the law that's in the practice. Bob Uslander: I imagine it may have an impact on the sentencing and on how the punishment is meted out? But it sounds like not on the actual determination of guilt or innocence. Derek Humphry: Yes. Dr. Bob: Is that correct? Derek Humphry: Yes, and he repeated his thing, "This action of mine, helping this man to die was merciful, and the law should be changed," and all the rest of it. He said to the jury, "Do I look like a murderer?" Of course, he didn't. Dr. Bob: Of course not. Derek Humphry: But the judge was pretty strong on him. He'd appeared before her before, and he signed a bond that he would not help any people to die, and of course, he obviously broke that bond. And so the jury found him guilty, and the judge said that "This is the end of your actions on this." And he was sent to 10 years to life; I think it was. It was a certain period to life, and he went to prison. He appealed, but he had no grounds for appeal. He kept on appealing, but they didn't have good grounds for appeal. That's the way the homicide laws are: You either did it, or you didn't do it. He had a film with himself doing it. So his work ... He did eight years in prison, served it very bravely, and nobly, and was let out after eight years instead of life on a promise that he wouldn't do it anymore. And he stuck to that promise. A few years later he died of kidney disease. He certainly had his impact. But where I, and I'm not medical profession, I'm not a doctor, of course, only a journalist, and people would write to him and say, "Will you help me?" He would write them back or call them back, and he would say after he'd saw the circumstances, "Yes. Fly up here." So people that he accepted would fly to Detroit, check into a motel. And he would help them to die next day. Now, that upset the medical profession. They said, "Look, that's not the way you practice medicine." Even if the end result was a Kevorkian-type result, you would evaluate a patient. You get to know a patient. You make sure it's a genuine, compassionate request. So he didn't move the medical profession at all. I'm afraid, and- Dr. Bob: Right. And that's really what's developed of course in the states that do have loss that allow physician-aided dying. Those issues are addressed. And as somebody who's practicing in that realm, I can assure you and everyone listening that the relationships are very important, and this is not a quick transaction, right? Derek Humphry: Yes, not a casual thing at all. There has to be understanding and friendship and signed documents saying that that's proving that this was the patient' own decision, the witnessed documents and whatever. It must be done carefully. And Kevorkian, one, in the start of his antics, he came to me, and he said that "Will the Hemlock Society send me patients?" And I said, "No. I don't believe in ..." Oh, he said he was going to start a suicide clinic. And I replied to him straight off in my office, he came to my office, asked for help, and I said, "No, I don't believe in people being helped assisted dying in clinics. This is something that must be done in home with knowledgeable doctors and agreeing families. This is not acceptable at all." He got very angry and stamped out of the office because I wouldn't help him. And I said, "Alright." Even before he got out, I said, "Alright. We have to change the law, not break it." Dr. Bob: Right, not circumvent it. Derek Humphry: Anyway, so he never spoke to me again. Dr. Bob: First of all, thank you for that history lesson. It's fascinating, and I now a lot of people will benefit from having a greater understanding of how the right-to-die movement really began and where Dr. Kevorkian fits into it. Share with me a bit, if you would, about what you're doing now. What is life like for Derek Humphry these days? Derek Humphry: Well, I'm 87 years old, in pretty good heath instead of some of the things like nerve-ending damage, or losing my hearing, and so forth that old people suffer from, but I don't have any major illnesses or terminal illnesses. I resigned from the Hemlock Society seven years ago. It was getting too big. I'm a writer, not a CEO, and so I handed it over. A few years later it merged into Compassion and Choices, into another ... It was merged, and the Hemlock Society doesn't exist anymore, except Hemlock Society of San Diego: They've kept their name and a very strong chapter down there. Dr. Bob: Yes, good friend sort of mine, and I will be introducing the listeners to some of the folks from the Hemlock Society of San Diego in future podcasts. Derek Humphry: Yes. I run a little organization that supplies quality literature about the right to choose to die, about assisted dying. And my book Final Exit, which is the guidebook as to how you can practice your own self-deliverance, what you must beware of, the dos and don'ts, the law. It's all described in journalistic terms. I'm a very straightforward writer. The book Final Exit has been selling since 1991, selling today. I sell about four or five a day. It's in the bookstores. It's on Amazon, and so forth. And it's sold all over the world. Most languages have taken, and even China and Japan have taken it. And then I've just published a memoir of my life, Good Life, Good Death, which is the story of my life before 50. I was 50 when I started the Hemlock Society, but it describes my life there, and then the second half about Jean's death and how the right-to-die movement numeric grew and grew. I moved to live in Oregon from Los Angeles, and I discovered that Oregon had a system of you could change the law by citizens initiative, that citizens could vote in their own law. It's quite complicated to do it. So in 1993, we set about, I gathered people around me and Hemlock Society of Oregon. I met other good people, doctors, and the lawyers, and nurses, and laypeople, and we got a citizens initiative going in Oregon in 1994, and we learned from other failures that we'd had previously in California and Washington. And to everybody's surprise, we won. We won by 2%, and the right-to-life movement sprung into action, got an injunction against us, stopped it. Then we fought that injunction off. Then they brought another one in, and they delayed the law for three years, and they called another vote, a state-wide vote in Oregon. They called another vote. And it was the biggest mistake they ever meant. We won by 4% the next time. We doubled our gain. So the vote, it was twice voted on in Oregon. And the law went into effect in 1998, and has worked- Dr. Bob: Yes, it has, and then- Derek Humphry: ... very satisfactorily ever since, and I think- Dr. Bob: Yeah, and then laws, the law in Washington became essentially modeled after that, and California and now Colorado, and I understand that there are initiatives and bills in many other states. So we are I think the progress continues. Derek Humphry: Yes. It's slow progress, and people would like to see more, but in a democracy and a free country like America, you've got to go step by step. Dr. Bob: Yes, you've got to go through [crosstalk 00:49:14]. Derek Humphry: Interesting. In Britain, it's still a crime to assist a suicide, but the Chief Prosecutions Department in London has issued guidelines. This is two years ago. They issued guidelines as to when they would prosecute a person and when they would not, what their markers were, what their standard was. And I agreed with it. I thought, "That's ..." I could see that I was ... Oh, there was a ... After the cheese, we came out, he police came to me and said, "Did you do this?" And I said, "Yes, I did. Oh, yeah." I said, "If you take me to court, I'll throw myself on the mercy of the court." I did help her. But the public prosecutor decided not to prosecute me. He used a clause in the law that if he felt one way about it, he could decline prosecution. And in Britain, they have this new law. They still haven't changed the law in Britain, and though they've tried the Oregon law two or three times, it never gets through Parliament. But they do have these guidelines which you can read there on the Internet and everywhere, which says if you assist a loved one, it can't be strangers, if you assist a loved one under these circumstances, I can't spread them all out now, but intelligent circumstances, then we are not likely to prosecute. If you do it for monetary reasons, or selfishness, or any criminality, then you will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Dr. Bob: As it should be. Derek Humphry: So go ahead. Dr. Bob: No. I said, "As it should be," right? I know that sometimes there can be nuances, but we do need to be protecting ... We need those protections in place. Derek Humphry: Oh, yes, undoubtedly. We're moving towards doing it. And I think that the whole change in America society is swinging, going to swing in our favor. I mean, who would've thought 10 years ago that there would be gay rights as clear as they are now, that there would be same-sex marriages? Who would've thought that a few years ago? But it's gone through, and the Supreme Court approved it. So there is a change in attitudes. Dr. Bob Bob: There is. Derek Humphry: And younger people are more open to intelligent decisions instead of old-fashioned and religious decisions. Bob Uslander: Well, you were ahead of your time, my friend, and you were it sounds like an accidental pioneer. I personally and professionally am grateful. We will be kind of carrying the torch and continuing in the efforts that you and many of your peers have put forth. And there are many, many people who owe you gratitude for going out and being willing to put yourself out there because it wasn't the easy path. It wasn't the path of least resistance by any stretch. I know that. Dr. Bob: So, Derek- Derek Humphry: ... had some ups and downs. Dr. Bob: yeah. Well, no doubt. And there is more work to be done. Derek Humphry: Oh, yes. Dr. Bob: There is quite a bit, but we also want to, like you were indicating, we want to recognize and appreciate the strides that have been made. And we are, I feel like we're moving clearly in the right direction. Derek Humphry: Yeah. I hope so. Dr. Bob: If people want to connect with you, and certainly you discussed a few of your books, I know there's others, but Let Me Die Before I Wake was one; Final Exit; Good Life, Good Death, which I have a copy of, and I can't wait to crack it open and dive into it. What is the best way for someone to learn more about you, be able to access your blog or give access to your books? Derek Humphry: My main website, which is the name's easily remembered, and then that leads you on to my other websites and blogs. It's www.finalexit.org. I'm not a nonprofit organization. If you go to finalexit.org, you could then see how you could move on to our bookstore very clearly or join a blog or the Listserv. So that's the easiest way to get in contact with us, finalexit.org. And my latest book is my memoir of all these years before '50 and the turbulent years since 50, and I call it Good Life, Good Death, so not all about death. There's quite a lot of humor and irony in other parts of it. And it's available through me or Amazon or so forth, but prefer you bought it from me. And you can find it through finalexit.org and get it at the discounted rate. Dr. Bob: Wonderful. Well, Derek, I just want to thank you for taking time and sharing so openly, and, again, for everything you've done to move, I think to move humanity forward. Derek Humphry: In a small way, and it's been very rewarding. I've built up a huge friendship and wonderful friendships, and people to work with on these calls, and particularly down in San Diego there seems a real hotbed of thoughts and action about this subject. Bob Uslander: Yeah, well, I know you've got some very good friends and admirers down here, and I'm one of them. So I'll look forward to continuing this friendship, and I know that we'll be back in touch soon. So I'll be signing off. Thank you so much, and we all appreciate you. Derek Humphry: It's been good talking to you. Dr. Bob: Okay, Derek. You take care of yourself. Derek Humphry: Okay. Thanks very much.  

In episode 043 of The Civil Engineering Podcast, I interview Bob Willard, a leading expert on quantifying and selling the business value of corporate sustainability strategies. Here are some of the questions I ask Bob: How would you describe sustainability in your own words? Why is sustainability an advantage for corporations? Why don’t more companies try […] The post TCEP 043: The Business Case for Sustainability-Related Initiatives appeared first on Engineering Management Institute.

Leaders, Bosses & Bastards: Episode Title What does it take for two very different, large organizations, with very different company cultures, to come together under the same overarching vision? Mickey interviews Bob Johnson, the Chief Executive Officer of Conversant, about all the conversational ins-and-outs that are involved in mergers, acquisitions and major organizational changes. Highlights As a leader, don’t assume that because you know where the organization is headed that everyone alongside you does as well. Smoothly navigating organizational change requires transparent and genuine conversation, showing your people what is happening and what decisions made it happen the way it is. Rather than just issue demands and later let employees know whether they met your undisclosed standards, be open about the needs of the company and offer the necessary tools to achieve those aims. To ensure you’re legacy is that of a leader rather than a bastard, follow up each interaction with the question: “What is the story people will tell about the conversation they just had with me?” Openly focus on what changes your leadership needs to make to benefit the company, and people will naturally begin to ask themselves that question about their own contribution. Rather than viewing organizational obstacles as mechanical or process problems to be fixed, approach them as human challenges that require specific conversations to be had. Navigating Organizational Changes 0:51 Mickey: We have with us the CEO of Conversant, Bob Johnson. Today we want to talk about mergers, acquisitions and other big, tumultuous organizational changes. What makes you someone we should listen to about that? 1:12 Bob Johnson: Well, I’m just a fascinating person, is one reason. But probably the more valid reason is, having been involved as far back as the Hewlett Packard and Compaq merger, I have a lot of experience directly in what is involved when we have two big organizations that have very different cultures and are coming together around what they think is the same aspiration. 1:52 Bob: Since then, I’ve been involved in a number of organizations that are going through mergers or acquisitions, or often just having to evolve and significantly disrupt their business model so they can, in some cases, survive, and in other cases, make a bigger difference. 2:22 Mickey: You were a senior executive with big accountabilities during the merger of Hewlett Packard and Compaq some years ago (Sept. 3, 2001). What were the biggest lessons that you’ve taken to all of these other companies you’ve supported since then? 2:42 Bob: Among the lessons is to be careful what your assumptions are going in—by that I mean: “I assume people see the benefit of two big companies coming together. I assume people will work hard to make this come together as quickly as possible. I assume that they will understand and act upon what we tell them.” 3:10 Bob: What I tell them is they’re merging because there’s a change they want to happen in their culture to have better business results and make a greater impact. While those words sound good, people have a real need to be in dialogue about understanding what they mean. 3:36 Bob: There are a series of conversations that are important that tend to be overlooked, causing rework and slowness later on. Are you involved in a dialogue so they sufficiently understand the purpose of the merger? Then they get to state what their purpose is inside of it as well. What is that intersection of where we’re going with this and what people are together on? 4:02 Bob: Given this change we’re trying to make, let’s be clear what that is and let’s look at our existing culture, behaviors and organization. There are some things we want to conserve, to honor and respect and bring forward. And there are some things we really know we need to change. 4:22 Bob: Change is going to involve our capability building and questioning models we’ve been operating under. Those are examples of phases that sometimes don’t get the attention they need and later on require a lot of work to go back and do better. Listen, Rather than Assume 3:37 Mickey: You were talking about assumptions and one of the biggest assumptions people have is, “Because I understand the reason we’re making a big change, you should be able to understand.” 4:49 Mickey: We frequently see senior leaders who have been involved in months (in some cases, a couple years) of conversations that lead to a major organizational acquisition or merger or divestiture. These leaders have become so intimately familiar with the change themselves that they forget it took then that long to get that familiar. 5:21 Mickey: They talk to other people about it, and as soon as they understand their own voice in their own head, they think they just made the point they want to make and assume everyone else just got it. 5:39 Bob: In one of the mergers, the leader was very clear on why it was important. I was part of a group she pulled together of 80 global leaders to launch this work. Someone raised their hand and said, “I still don’t completely understand what or why we’re doing this.” The leader just blew up and said, “I’ve distributed those plans. You have a very compelling slide deck that describes the path we’re on. I would have assumed you’d read this, and you obviously haven’t. That tells me you aren’t the leaders to do this.” And she left the meeting. 6:35 Bob: She eventually came back, acknowledging that we hadn’t had the sufficient conversations and that we were the people she wanted to be on this journey with. She realized she needed to listen and make sure it was clear. Leaders Respect, Bastards Demand 6:49 Mickey: You can think of it in terms of leaders, bosses and bastards. We say that a genuine, powerful leader is orchestrating the contribution of others, and they’re doing it in a way that people know they’re respected and cared for. 7:19 Mickey: The bosses just leave people instructions. The person you were talking about sounded like that. The bastards don’t even do that. Bastards just issue demands and let you know later whether you met undisclosed standards. 7:57 Bob: Bastards. There are plenty of them and they don’t know it. They would be stunned to think that people thought that of them, because it’s so obvious to them what’s happening. In some cases they just don’t engage. And then they wonder a year later why more progress isn’t made. 8:35 Mickey: And why some of their best and brightest decided to go somewhere else. You made an important point: people who are occurring as bastards are not that in their own minds. It really has to do with extraordinary insensitivity. 9:04 Mickey: On a particular merger, one leader from one side held a meeting with leaders from the two companies. He said, “Let’s get something very, very clear. This keeps getting written about as a ‘merger’. I want it to be clear: this is an acquisition. We have paid $X billion dollars for this company. We’re in charge of what happens next.” 9:45 Mickey: The toxic gossip and the number of people who began to polish resumes that came out of that meeting were extraordinary. That guy definitely occurred to people as a bastard. Writing the Stories We Want to Be a Part Of 10:08 Mickey: So much of the breakdown is people don’t do the patient and time-consuming work to understand who all of the different groups of people are who are crucial to the success of this combination. What are each of those groups’ distinct purposes, worries and circumstances? How do we engage them in conversation to clarify the reason for doing this that is actually sensitive to all of those purposes, concerns and circumstances? 10:46 Bob: Every organization has a story that is in continual motion and continually sharing. The story based on what you shared, is what’s the story about that leader who acted like a bastard? 11:19 Bob: Or do you create a story that has hope and aspiration in it? This is where I think we get in and really make a difference: creating the kinds of conversations you want with different people in the organization, who you know are highly connected to other people, that will generate a positive story. There’s still a lot of work to do, but do we have a good story from the beginning that people feel they want to be a part of? 11:54 Mickey: I love that as a way for really effective leaders to think about how to manage this kind of seismic change. You get a microcosm of that system together and ask, “What is the story that this merger or acquisition is a central moment in?” 12:30 Mickey: Having a positive story is exciting to people, because then the purpose becomes meaningful. Things become clear, in a way that people can share it, because it’s a story not a Powerpoint deck. 12:46 Mickey: Each senior leader in these organizations could ask him or herself after every meeting or significant interaction: “What story do I think people are telling about the conversation they just had with me? And how does that story fit with the story we say we’re writing for this change in organization?” 13:07 Bob: Leaders can take that analogy and think about, “What is the next chapter we want to write? What will it take for that story to be complete, whole, and inspire people to move into the next phase?” Self-Change Leads the Organizational Change 13:27 Bob: The other caution is you might have done a really good job to start, but you let it go. People are always looking for that indicator of where they won’t be allowed to be involved and they’ll get dominated. You have to be vigilant to avoid that. 13:47 Mickey: Be responsible for your assumptions and turn them into clear, open conversation. We spoke about that conversation being sensitive to the purposes, concerns and circumstances of the people you actually need to pull this off. It’s startling how often leaders are not sensitive to that. 14:06 Mickey: A word that gets used so much that it has become trivialized is “authenticity.” How open, transparent, genuine and human are the people responsible for this major organization change happening? 14:29 Mickey: How often are the leaders in an open, genuine conversation with other people? How do we make this something human that we are in together, rather than some formal set of manuals about how things are supposed to be? 14:47 Mickey: At another company we’re supporting and doing significant work, they’re expanding globally at a rate where their underlying processes have to evolve in huge, dramatic and rapid ways. The current processes cannot support the level of growth they’re having globally. 15:09 Mickey: The CEO has been there for the ride for over 10 years—very successful, very well thought of. He shared his concerns with people that the changes they were going through were not just the underlying processes of the company. They had to be changes in how he led. 15:35 Mickey: He was confronting that as an important question that he asked people to talk to him about. He said, “I want to know what you think this company needs from me in the new era that it didn’t need before? And what did it need in the past that it doesn’t need now?” He got extraordinary input. 16:06 Mickey: What happened after that is that people began to ask those questions about themselves: “As the company changes, what changes in me in order to make that successful?” Having someone that senior orchestrate development instead of asking for it from other people—that’s a leader. 16:27 Mickey: That’s someone really eliciting the interest, connection, contribution of others that really inspirits this kind of change. 16:37 Bob: I was in a conversation this morning with the top leader of an organization, who acknowledged that his leadership needs to shift for the organization to be able to have the impact they want. He asked a group of people to give him feedback, such as, “What is the unique contribution that this person and only this person can make?” 17:12 Bob: Part of the conversation from the group that was helping him was they came to the understanding that this change was not just about him as a leader. “This is about us as well.” 17:25 Bob: “However we answer the leadership at the top, what does that say about our leadership and how we engage the rest of our organization?” 17:39 Mickey: That does fit with our definition of leader, contrasted with boss or bastard. The boss would tell other people what they need to do that’s different. The leaders actually demonstrate that the changes in our enterprise call for me to evolve my own leadership. That naturally attracts other people in the same conversation. Make It Easy for People to See The New Direction 18:03 Mickey: It’s amazing to me in how many of these major organizational changes, people do not communicate enough about what is happening, why it’s happening and what criteria we used to decide what to say no and yes to. 18:33 Mickey: I’ve heard some people say, “We don’t have time for all of that.” And yet they end up having time for the disappointing execution and the failed meeting that people walk away from with stories that are not helpful to the future of the enterprise. They come with false cause like, “We don’t have the right people.” 18:55 Mickey: But they just didn’t manage to stay in an open, complete conversation so people could see where we’re going and what we’re doing. 19:05 Mickey: As I was driving in this morning, I was on a four-lane road and in a hurry. I was trying to make sure I was in the right lane for moving most quickly. I noticed that I wanted to change lanes because there was a big truck ahead and I couldn’t see what was in front of me. I had to keep myself from changing lanes. It turned out that the truck lane was much faster than the others, but everything in me wanted to move just because I couldn’t see. That’s what happens to people in these big companies; if they can’t see what we’re doing, why we’re doing it, and why we made these choices, then people end up making up all sorts of fearful stories. 19:54 Mickey: Investing in clear, chronic communication, being the source of information versus the subject of worried gossip is a crucial part of change. 20:10 Bob: If you take it back to the leaders, bosses and bastards, I’ve just come out of an experience from the last couple months with a person I’d say is a bastard (“I’m the smartest one here. Just do what I said. Make sure people do what I say and we’ll get where we want to go”). A year and a half later, they’re nowhere near where they need to go. The question he was unwilling to confront was “Why is that the case?” 20:44 Bob: How is happened is that he didn’t engage people. There was no element of co-creation. There was no transparency of the “why” they were making changes and the facts that contributed to them. 21:04 Bob: If you want to shift it, it requires your leadership and your stewardship of dialogue in the organization to shift the story they have about you, the lack of trust they have for you and their willingness to step into something they’ve clearly stepped out of. That’s a huge disruption. 21:22 Mickey: While it took him a year and a half to be open to having that conversation, that shows up on the P&L, the balance sheet and the cash flow. 21:32 Bob: It’s almost like, “What would be an effective transition for you from bastard to leader, and are you interested?” 21:42 Mickey: And what could that mean to the commercial success of the enterprise? Or, if it was not a for-profit, what could that mean for the mission success of the enterprise? Depending on the speed at which people own that something is not working well, what does my conduct have to do with that? 22:07 Mickey: Answering and asking that question is an act of leadership. For him, that the lag time was so long. In your future work with him, I hope he’ll work on reducing the time lag between when things are not going as planned and what his personal role might be in that. 22:29 Bob: In this case, he has been confronted with that and open to accepting it. One of the results of being a bastard is a year and a half of no progress. A leader really opens that up as transparent, invites people in and is interested in their point of view. What’s the possible result of being a leader? 23:03 Bob: In this case, setting a six month timeline of new ways to engage the organization in the hopes and dreams you have for yourself as a leader and them. And he’s in it. But it takes a shift. 23:16 Bob: As you can imagine, people are like, “Is this real?” Engaging Humans, Not Just Fixing Mechanics 23:40 Mickey: You relate to these really large organizational challenges as more human challenges than they are mechanical or process challenges—because the mechanics and the processes are invented and led by human beings. 24:02 Mickey: Most people do financial due diligence and all of this work on making plans that people are just supposed to follow. You actually relate to it more like engaging human beings early in conversation. 24:17 Mickey: You help solve challenges rather than just follow instructions and have them participate in what they’re doing and why they’re doing it. This approach fuels change so well, it’s shocking how many companies don’t do this. 24:50 Bob: Words matter. You’re a champion of that. The distinction inside of what you just described is: leaders who say, “I want you to follow me,” versus leaders who say, “I want you to join me.” 25:10 Bob: Following has a certain set of behaviors. Joining has a set of conversations, invitations and co-creations that need to occur. I know between the impact of being a followed leader versus a joined leader, joined leading gets you a lot further down the road, a lot faster, with better results and greater fulfillment. 25:25 Mickey: That’s a beautiful example of getting more done with less time, money and stress.

He Yang:A Sina Shanghai online survey found that close to 50 percent of respondents support pet’s-friendly workplaces. They say allowing pets at work relieves pressure and even spurs creativity. But could your furry friends rub off on coworkers the wrong way? Well, let’s talk about the survey findings first.Yu Yang:Yeah, the survey finds that nearly a half of people believe that having pets at work can help employees release intense pressure to stimulate more inspiration. Nearly 30% of online users suggest that pets at work makes working overtime no longer alone and boring, it is also conducive to the relationship between colleagues. However, about 10% of people think the pets will be harmful for the hygienic working environment and they may destroy office facilities sometimes. And 13% of total survey participants simply disagree because they don’t like animals.Bob:How can people not like animals? I love animals.He Yang:There are people who not like you, Bob.Yu Yang:Some people may be allergic to the lovely furry friend.Bob: Furry animal, the faces, those beautiful little faces looking at you. How could you not like them when they are so cute? He Yang:I know that’s a good point. But what about a lizard or a spider?Bob:Or a snake? I’m gonna say this all comes down to I guess, you know, what kind of pet, because lot of pets just aren’t practical in an office scenario or maybe we are talking about a shop or a restaurant, where you can’t really keep a dog or a cat in the restaurant or something like that. But curiously, I’m against the idea. He Yang:You are?Bob:Totally against the idea of having animals. I love animals so much, but as I want to run home to my pet and it will relax me and get me over the stresses and the strings of the day. But it was interesting one of those statistics, which is 25% suggesting that a pet would make working overtime no longer lonely and boring. Well, how about we don’t have to do overtime? How about we have a good work-life balance? And then we don’t need to have these stress beaters like pets and animals in the office, we just go home and have social life, maybe you know play with our dogs and cats home.Yu Yang:Oh, this is ideal situation, Bob, but for news people or other media people, sometimes you don’t know what kind of news is happening and you need to work on it. So sometimes you need to work overtime.He Yang:So Yu yang, do you agree with the idea of having a pet at the workplace?Yu Yang:I understand people’s love toward animals, but keep your love at your own place, not in workplace, because there might be some people who are allergic to the dog hair or cat hair or other name allergens. So it’s not good for the health of other people. And also there is safety hazard and some people just have fear deep down in their hearts, I’m one of them, ok. When I was a little girl, I was chased by a huge black dog of our neighbour’s, so that has very negative impact on me towards my feelings to dogs when I see a dog, especially large one, I feared. So it might be distraction of people’s work.Bob:It could take longer to do your work, because you gonna have to look after the pet, you gonna have to, you know, play with it, feed it, maybe take it for a walk. So you could actually end up with more stress, because you have got less time to do your work.He Yang:Or you can go the other way round, that is when you have a furry little being in the office and it comes to, you know, your chair and then you can just rub it and then it goes to the next desk.Bob:Sorry, are you describing a pet or Ryan?Heyang:I think we have mentioned he’s a tall guy.So yeah, not the little furry one, which is so cute and some people are saying that having a pet in the office, people sort of forge more trust and more communication between each other.Bob:That I can understand.Yu Yang:Yeah, pet lovers usually share a lot in common, so it’s easier to build a trust among them.He Yang:And also a lot of start-ups, the cool, young companies allow this to attract younger employees and to be more accommodating to their employees. I think that is the gesture that are trying to show. And also there are some other studies saying that when you have a pet in the office, people walk around a lot more. It’s actually good for your health and there also some healthy chemicals that could be released just because you have a pet around, you can enjoy those chemicals at home and at work.Bob:We’re going to get a pet. We’re going to have a roundtable cat.He Yang:I want a dog.Bob:No, we can’t have a dog.Yu Yang:It’s a hard decision. It’s a hard decision.He Yang:That is a hard decision. And we want your suggestion. So send us a message on Wechat. We are ezfmroundtable, you can find us anytime, anywhere.