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What happens when shame takes root in a story? And how does contempt become one of the ways we learn to survive it? Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen explore the complicated relationship between shame and contempt, and why understanding these dynamics matters so deeply for healing and human connection. Shame can leave us feeling exposed, powerless, defective, or alone. And contempt often emerges as a strategy of protection: through self-criticism, defensiveness, withdrawal, rage, sarcasm, superiority, or humiliation. You'll hear reflections on: why contempt often forms in response to pain and powerlessness what trauma responses like fight, flight, freeze, and fawn look like in moments of shame how to remain grounded in dignity and belovedness when faced with contempt This conversation invites us into deeper curiosity, compassion, and discernment — especially in a cultural moment increasingly marked by outrage, dehumanization, and contempt. If you'd like to explore these themes more deeply, we invite you to join Rachael Clinton Chen for the upcoming live training, The Art of Story Engagement, on June 13. Together, you'll explore more deeply how contempt shapes our stories — and how learning to recognize these dynamics in ourselves and others can open the door to greater wisdom, healing, and care. You can learn more at theallendercenter.org/events About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org *This episode contains some explicit language. Listener discretion is advised.
Have you ever felt like you were living between worlds? Maybe you've moved across countries or cultures. Maybe your family story carries immigration, missionary work, military life, trauma, loss, or displacement. Or maybe, even surrounded by familiar people and places, you still carry an ache for belonging — a longing to feel fully known, rooted, and at home. Today, Dan and Rachael sit down with Esperansita Bejnarowicz, who is a story coach, an NFTC Certified Facilitator with the Allender Center, and the founder of Far From Home. Together, they explore the hidden grief, loneliness, and longing that can come from living "far from home" — geographically, emotionally, spiritually, and relationally. Esperansita reflects on the experience of living between identities, cultures, languages, expectations, and communities, and the ways these in-between spaces can leave us carrying forms of grief that often go unseen or unnamed. The conversation also considers the story of Jesus as someone deeply acquainted with displacement: a child forced to flee, a man who "had no place to lay his head," and someone who understood sorrow, exile, and longing for home. Through her own story and the stories of women she now serves through Far From Home, Esperansita offers language for the ache of leaving home, the complexity of belonging nowhere and everywhere at once, and the loneliness that can exist even when life appears beautiful from the outside. Whether you've crossed borders or simply know what it feels like to search for belonging, this conversation offers language, comfort, and hope for the parts of us still longing to find home. You can learn more about Far From Home at: https://www.womenfarfromhome.org/ About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org
Is Mortality the Enemy of a Meaningful Life? Curtis Chang sits down with psychologist Dr. Dan Allender for a searching conversation about aging, mortality, Christian hope, and the surprising freedom of growing older. Together, they explore why getting older is not merely decline, but an invitation to deeper purpose, tenderness, grace, and wisdom—especially in a culture determined to deny death. From caring for aging parents to reimagining retirement, Dan and Curtis offer biblical insight and personal honesty for anyone seeking renewed purpose, peace, and courage as we grow older. 00:43 - Introduction to Aging Well Spiritually, Not Physically 03:25 - Psalm 90 and When to Start Thinking About Age? 05:40- Why Does Our Culture Avoid Aging? 09:52 - Are There Gifts in Getting Older? 19:10 - Counting Your Days: A Biblical Perspective 25:05- Psalm 92: The Righteous Stay Vital By Serving Others 29:14 - The Problem with Retirement Culture 34:32 - What About the "Sandwich Generation"? 40:55 - Our Inner Emotional Age 44:45 - The Power of Story From Lives Well Lived 50:20 - Tending to Your Past Selves Please Enjoy the Reading Guide for This Episode: https://bit.ly/danallenderreadalong Turn on Apple Podcasts Automatic Downloads: Go to the Settings app on your iPhone. Tap Apps, then tap Podcasts. Tap Automatically Download, then tap an option. Tip: To automatically download episodes from a particular podcast, go to the Podcasts app on your iPhone, tap Library, then tap Shows. Touch and hold the show, then tap Settings. Tap Automatically Download to limit automatic downloads to a certain number of episodes or a timeframe. Sign up for The After Party Informational Webinars Sign up for The Good List Scriptures Referenced: Psalm 90:12 (all versions) Psalm 92:14 (all versions) Genesis 16 (ESV) Hebrews 4:11 (all versions) Mentioned in This Episode: Dylan Thomas's Do Not Go Gentle into That Good Night Good Faith podcast episode 211: Nancy French's Joyful Grandparenting Lessons & Living Like Tomorrow Isn't Guaranteed Schindler's List scene: "I didn't do enough" More From Dan Allender: The Allender Center resources Dan Allender at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology The Allender Center Podcast Follow Us: Good Faith on Instagram Good Faith on X (formerly Twitter) Good Faith on Facebook The Good Faith Podcast is a production of a 501(c)(3) nonpartisan organization that does not engage in any political campaign activity to support or oppose any candidate for public office. Any views and opinions expressed by any guests on this program are solely those of the individuals and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Good Faith.
URSULA'S TOP STORIES: Seattle Schools are #1 in the nation // SPD takes 3 hours to respond to an overnight intruder // Local broker receives 4 years for defrauding dozens // Who is leaving WA and why? // WE NEED TO TALK. . . GLP-1 drugs are shredding waistlines, restaurant profits
How do we live faithfully in a world where stories no longer seem to anchor us to a shared reality? Returning to the Allender Center Podcast, Pastor James A. White joins Dan and Rachael to wrestle with the confusion, distortion that shape our cultural moments, both past and present. Together, they explore the idea of "story wars"—the deeply human tendency to create narratives that help us survive, but can also estrange us from truth, one another, and the heart of God. At the center of the conversation is the resurrection story itself: a story so disruptive and improbable that even Jesus' closest companions struggled to believe it. And yet, the resurrection is precisely what recalibrates reality. Not because it erases suffering or uncertainty, but because it offers a new way of seeing: that even in places marked by grief, confusion, fear, or loss, hope and transformation are still possible. This conversation invites us to examine the stories shaping us personally and collectively, and to ask difficult but necessary questions about truth, power, fear, belonging, and hope. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org
Secretary of State Marco Rubio posts a video that seems like a campaign ad. The cybercrime group ShinyHunters attacks an edtech platform for ransom. Russia's annual celebration of its WWII victory against the Nazis is pared down. The Dispatch's Michael Reneau joins Clarissa Moll to discuss these headlines, and then Clarissa sits down with Dan Allender of The Allender Institute to discuss Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy's skepticism about antidepressants, and how Christians can thoughtfully approach the use of psychiatric medication. GO DEEPER WITH THE BULLETIN: Join the conversation at our Substack. Find us on YouTube. Rate and review the show in your podcast app of choice. ABOUT THE GUESTS: Michael Reneau is an executive editor at The Dispatch and is based in Greeneville, Tennessee. Prior to that, he was editor of WORLD Magazine and for several years was editor of a daily newspaper in East Tennessee. Dan Allender is a psychiatrist who pioneered a treatment approach that bridges the story of the gospel and the stories of trauma and abuse. Dan serves as a professor of counseling psychology at The Seattle School. He is the author of The Wounded Heart, The Healing Path, To Be Told, and God Loves Sex. Dan also co-hosts The Allender Center Podcast. ABOUT THE BULLETIN: The Bulletin is a twice-weekly news analysis podcast from Christianity Today, with editor-at-large Russell Moore and executive editor of news Clarissa Moll. Each episode offers commentary on current events and headlining news with a roundtable of premier guests, and shares a Christian perspective on issues that are shaping our world. The Bulletin listeners get 25% off CT. Go to https://orderct.com/THEBULLETIN to learn more. “The Bulletin” is a production of Christianity Today Producer: Clarissa Moll Associate Producer: Alexa Burke Editing and Mix: Kevin Morris Graphic Design: Rick Szuecs Music: Dan Phelps Executive Producer: Erik Petrik Senior Producer: Matt Stevens Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Welcome back to the second half of this powerful conversation with Jay Stringer. Building on the foundation of his book, "Desire,"Jay moves us deeper into one of the most provocative ideas of the conversation: Sometimes our desires must disrupt and even destroy something in order to make way for something more true. This isn't destruction for destruction's sake. Iconoclasm is the breaking of false structures, identities, and "provisional selves" that no longer serve us. And as Jay explores, when we don't have wise guides or meaningful rites of passage, that disruption often shows up as self-sabotage—affairs, addictions, burnout, or relational breakdown. But instead of dismissing those moments as failure, Jay invites us to see them as honest signals—clues pointing back to our story, our unmet longings, and the deeper work our soul is trying to initiate. Listen in to a conversation that is rich with story and grounded in research as they also explore: why community is essential for making sense of our desires (and why we can't do this work alone) how to interrogate your desires in a healthy, curious way—not with shame, but with wisdom and how our desires are often shaped by forces we don't even realize, yet can be reshaped over time Desire has the power to both build and break. The question is not whether disruption will come—but whether we'll have the courage, support, and curiosity to let it lead us somewhere good. Order your copy of Jay's new book, "Desire: The Longings Inside Us and the New Science of How We Love, Heal, and Grow," now at: https://jay-stringer.com/books/ About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org
What if desire isn't something to suppress or fear, but something to honor and steward? In this two-part conversation, therapist and author Jay Stringer joins Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen to explore that very question through the lens of his new book, "Desire: The Longings Inside Us and the New Science of How We Love, Heal, and Grow." From the very beginning, it was clear this topic couldn't be contained in a single episode. Dan arrived with 16 pages of notes—so settle in for a deep, expansive conversation that unfolds across the next two weeks. In Part 1, Jay traces the long personal and clinical journey behind Desire, opening up a deeper question beneath the surface of struggle and behavior: how do we learn to want well? You'll hear: Why desire often feels like a "civil war" within us How your family of origin can shape what you long for (and what you may have denied) The concept of the "provisional self"—and how it can both help and hinder you Why some of the patterns you want to escape may actually be clues to deeper healing Through personal stories, clinical insight, and thoughtful reflection, this conversation invites you to get curious about your desires—not to judge them, but to understand where they come from and where they're leading you. Be sure to come back next week as Jay re-joins us to explore the disruptive role of desire, the courage it takes to engage it, and how to grow it within the context of community. In the meantime, you can order your copy of Jay Stringer's newest book, "Desire: The Longings Inside Us and the New Science of How We Love, Heal, and Grow" today: https://jay-stringer.com/books/ About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org
We've all been there. When quickly a "just checking something" moment turns into 20 minutes lost scrolling. How hard it is to stay present with the people right in front of us. And how confusing it can be to guide our kids through a world we didn't grow up in. In this episode, Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen sit down with Dawn Wible, founder of Talk More. Tech Less., to name what many of us are wrestling with. Technology isn't just a tool; it's shaping our attention, our relationships, and even our capacity for connection. You'll also hear about how to approach some of the harder truths many families are facing today, including online exploitation risks, and why open, shame-free conversations at home matter more than ever. If you've ever felt the pull of your phone, the frustration of setting boundaries, or the ache of disconnection with your loved ones, you're not alone. We invite you to listen to the full episode to hear practical insights for you and your family. And be sure to check the show notes for resources from Talk More. Tech Less., including their free guides to help you take small, meaningful steps toward healthier tech use. Listener Resources from Talk More. Tech Less.: Pre-Order the TMTL 30-Day Program: https://www.talkmoretechless.com/shop/talk-more-tech-less-30-day-program Download free educational Prevention One-Pagers: https://fairplayforkids.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/ActionKitCombined.pdf About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org
Nearly everyone has a story of medical trauma, whether it's a surgery, a frightening diagnosis, chronic pain, a difficult birth, a long wait for answers, or even the seemingly-subtle experience of being dismissed in a clinical setting. These moments may not always be labeled as "trauma," but they often leave a mark on our bodies, our relationships, and our sense of safety. In this episode of the Allender Center podcast, Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen sit down with Dr. James "Jim" Jackson, a leading expert in neuropsychology, long COVID, and survivorship care, to explore what it means to recognize and heal from medical trauma in all its forms. The conversation opens up the often-overlooked reality that medical experiences don't just end when treatment ends. They can shape anxiety, trust, avoidance of care, and the emotional lives of entire families. If you found this conversation helpful, we recommend checking out Dr. James Jackson's new book, "Reclaiming Your Life from Medical Trauma." It extends the discussion much further, offering practical guidance for patients, caregivers, and clinicians who want to better understand the emotional and physiological aftermath of medical care and how to move forward with greater care. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org
This week, Dan and Rachael sit down with therapist, trauma care specialist, and NFTC® Alumni Tabitha Westbrook for a tender and important conversation on healthy sexuality after abuse. In a space where many questions remain unspoken, this episode brings language to the shame, confusion, and longing so many carry in silence. With honesty and depth, their conversation offers a grounded invitation toward healing, one that honors the complexity of your story and the goodness of your body. This episode engages the topic of sexual abuse and sexuality, and includes mature language. Listener discretion is advised. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org
We all know what it feels like to scapegoat—or to be scapegoated. To shift blame, protect ourselves, and make someone else carry what feels too heavy to hold. So what does that have to do with Good Friday? In this episode of the Allender Center Podcast, Mako Nagasawa helps us see that what we call "scapegoating" today is actually a distortion of its original biblical meaning. Looking at Leviticus 16, he explains that the scapegoat was never about blaming or punishing a substitute, but about removing what didn't belong. A way of naming that the problem isn't who we are, but what has taken hold within us. But over time, we've changed that meaning, looking for others to carry the blame instead of facing what's broken in us. This episode invites us to see the cross differently. Rather than reinforcing blame and punishment, Jesus steps into our cycle of scapegoating to break it, revealing a God who is not looking for someone to punish, but is committed to restoring what's broken. This is the hope of Good Friday: not a story of blame, but the beginning of restoration. Special Offer for our Listeners: "Scapegoating as a Spiritual Formation Problem:" A free, four-week discussion group led by Mako Nagasawa with The Anástasis Center. Explore how Penal Substitutionary Atonement theology encourages people to accept arbitrary authority and deploy harsh retributive justice. Explore how Medical Substitutionary Atonement theology from Early and Eastern Christianity can heal our souls, relationships, and public witness. Enroll for free (with donations) at: https://anastasiscourses.thinkific.com/courses/scapegoating About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org
Danielle “When it comes to defending my kids, my husband, my community, my family members—even if I don't like you and I thought it was unjust—I could really step in and kick some ass. But when it comes to myself, the shutdown is so strong. I almost want to fall asleep.” Rebecca “There's a reason why you can be so passionate about justice—because you know what unjust feels like and looks like and sounds like. Whatever we have to do to survive that stays with us. And we can simultaneously say, ‘I won't ever stand by and watch somebody I love feel what I felt.'” Jenny “I think part of it is how I've been socialized as a white woman—you are supposed to be demure and look out for the betterment of other people. And even when women speak up about harm, they say, ‘I didn't want this to happen to another woman.' And that's good—but why isn't it enough to say, ‘This happened to me, and it's not okay?' It's like we need a surrogate to make it permissible to tell the truth.” Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.
What if everything you've been labeling as a problem — the addiction, the affair, the marriage that feels like a hostage situation, the career that's slowly killing you — is actually a prophet trying to get your attention?Dr. Glenn and Phyllis Hill sit down with Jay Stringer, psychotherapist, ordained minister, and author of Desire, for one of the most searingly honest conversations about human longing, emotional health, and the hidden roadmap inside every one of us.Jay spent years studying why people engage in unwanted behaviors — and what he found wasn't weakness or moral failure. He found desire. Vandalized, suppressed, and rerouted desire. And he found that healing the root — not just managing the symptom — changes everything.In This EpisodeWhy "just stop doing the thing" almost never works — and what to do insteadThe 5 core desires every human has (and why over-indexing on one destroys the others)The concept of the "provisional self" and why so many people wake up at 60 not knowing who they areWhat bells and albatrosses can teach you about the direction your life is asking you to goThe DMZs in your marriage — and why avoiding them is quietly killing your connectionHow symptoms are actually prophets (and what they're trying to say)Jay walks through the Core Emotion Wheel live — with stunning vulnerability about loneliness, sadness, and a midlife chrysalisAbout Jay StringerJay Stringer is a licensed psychotherapist, ordained minister, and author based in New York City. His first book, Unwanted, explored the hidden drivers of unwanted sexual behavior. His new book, Desire, offers a research-backed roadmap for developing a healthy relationship to desire across all five domains of human flourishing — wholeness, growth, intimacy, pleasure, and meaning. He holds a master's in counseling psychology and an MDiv from The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology.SEO Keywordsdesire and healing, emotional health podcast, marriage communication, understanding your desires, unwanted sexual behavior, porn addiction recovery, identity and self-worth, self-sabotage meaning, mental health and marriage, relationship emotional intelligence, faith and therapy, midlife identity crisis, Core Emotion Wheel, connection codes podcast, Jay Stringer Desire bookResources & LinksGet the Core Emotion Wheel — Free ResourceBook a Connection Codes CoachJay Stringer's book: DesireJay's first book: UnwantedJay Stringer's Website: jay-stringer.comFollow Jay on Instagram: @jay_stringer_Take Jay's Desire Profile Quiz (from the book)Jay's Contact Page (Linktree)
For decades, Rev. Rob Schenck was a leading voice in the religious right, shaping policy and influencing power from the halls of Washington, D.C. But over time, he began to see that the gospel he was serving had become entangled with politics, ambition, and illusion. In this episode, Rob reflects on the experiences that cracked his assumptions: moments of human suffering he couldn't ignore, the limits of religious influence, and the moral compromises he witnessed in powerful circles. He shares how these experiences—and encounters with people whose realities he had once dismissed—led him to reimagine faith as a call to truth, compassion, and reality rather than fantasy or control. This conversation isn't really about politics. It's about confronting hard truths, facing the realities of the world and ourselves, and rediscovering the gospel in a society where our imaginations, privileges, and systems often distort it. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org
Many listeners of the Allender Center Podcast have asked us to explore neurodivergence—especially what it means to parent neurodivergent children or to make sense of a diagnosis in adulthood. We're pleased to welcome therapist Stephanie Isbell, a Narrative Focused Trauma Care®–trained clinician who works with neurodivergent adults and families. In conversation with Dan and Rachael, she leads us through the complex intersection of neurodivergence, trauma, identity, and story. Neurodivergence—which can include autism, ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, and more—points to the many ways human brains process the world differently. For many people, these differences have been misunderstood or pathologized, often leading to experiences of shame, isolation, and relational misunderstanding from early childhood. Stephanie brings both clinical insight and compassionate curiosity to the conversation, helping unpack how neurodivergent people often grow up navigating social miscues, sensory overwhelm, and the pressure to "mask" their natural ways of being in order to fit in. She highlights how considering these experiences as part of a larger story—perhaps our own and perhaps those of the people we love—offers helpful layers of understanding, allowing us to respond with greater compassion. Throughout the conversation, we are invited to cultivate deeper curiosity—about ourselves and about the people we love. For parents, partners, and communities, this means moving beyond forcing conformity and instead learning to ask better questions, listen more carefully, and honor the unique ways each person experiences the world. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/ If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org
Episode Summary Trigger Warning: We should mention that parts of this story might be disturbing for some of our listeners. Dolores Huerta reminds us of the risk still carried in speaking: “I think that women when they do come forward with their stories, that they instead of getting the kind of support that they need, to get attacked, I mean, or they're not believed that we've seen this happen throughout history, and so I think we'll just have to deal with that if it does happen. Hopefully it won't, but if it does, we'll just have to deal with it… have you spoken to the two women who were girls when they were assaulted by Cesar Chavez?” From Latino USA Podcast In this episode, the hosts move from a light, relatable moment—caring for an anxious rescue cat—into a deeply layered conversation about power, harm, and the complexities of accountability in both personal and societal contexts. Prompted by emerging allegations surrounding civil rights leader Cesar Chavez, the conversation explores a painful and recurring question: how do we reconcile meaningful social contributions with personal harm, particularly when those in power abuse their position? The hosts reflect on the exhaustion of witnessing repeated patterns of powerful men causing harm, and consider how systems of power themselves may shape or even encourage these dynamics. Drawing on psychological frameworks like the Stanford Prison Experiment, the discussion examines how dominance, hierarchy, and culturally defined leadership traits may predispose individuals toward harmful behavior. Danielle introduces her theory of “white attachment” as a hierarchical rather than relational system—one that prioritizes proximity to power over mutual connection—resulting in cycles of exclusion, trauma, and disconnection from belonging. The conversation expands into a broader critique of Western constructs of identity and belonging, particularly the idea that access to power and resources defines inclusion. Rebecca frames “whiteness” not as an inherent trait, but as a system organized around who is granted access and who is denied it—often requiring individuals to sacrifice parts of themselves to belong. From there, the hosts explore the instability of belonging in American systems—where invitations (to citizenship, safety, or care) are often paired with betrayal. This tension is linked to intergenerational trauma, migration, and the lived reality that safety is never guaranteed, even when promised. A central theme emerges around accountability: what it is, who enforces it, and whether current systems are capable of holding harm in meaningful ways. The group critiques institutional failures—from government to churches—and wrestles with the limitations of both punitive and individualistic approaches. In contrast, they reflect on community-based models of accountability, including restorative practices observed in Ugandan communities, where harm is understood as collective and healing involves ritual, reintegration, and shared responsibility. This raises a core tension between individual justice and communal repair—especially in cases of sexual violence, where harm is both deeply personal and socially embedded. The episode also highlights: The cost of silence for survivors, particularly when speaking out threatens community stability The lack of accountability for perpetrators, even when evidence is public (e.g., Epstein cases) The need to shift cultural responsibility from protecting victims to shaping the behavior and accountability of men The failure of communities to address early warning signs of harm Throughout, the hosts resist easy answers. Instead, they hold the complexity of these issues—acknowledging the difficulty of balancing justice, safety, belonging, and repair in a world where harm is both systemic and deeply human. The episode closes with a recognition that while no clear solutions were reached, the conversation itself reflects an ongoing search for more honest, collective, and humane ways of addressing harm and accountability. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.
Have you been living within a role for years—only to wonder if there is more of you still waiting to be known? For decades, Becky Allender stood faithfully behind the scenes, supporting Dan's work, praying as an intercessor, helping build what would become the Allender Center. Yet she also carried the ache of being "in the room" without fully feeling she had a seat at the table. In today's conversation, she names the cost of that tension, and the courage it took to step forward. When Becky chose to participate in Narrative Focused Trauma Care—the very framework her husband helped create—something began to shift. Through the steady presence of skilled facilitators and courageous companions, she encountered grief she hadn't fully named and discovered a growing kindness toward parts of herself long defended or hidden. What followed was not only personal healing, but relational transformation. Through the language she gained and interactions she experienced, her relationship with Dan deepened. Repair with her daughters became possible. Her love for her parents softened and expanded. And from that engagement with her story emerged a clearer sense of calling—expressed in her teaching, leadership, and her memoir, Hidden in Plain Sight. Perhaps most compelling is this: Becky began this work after decades of marriage, motherhood, and ministry. It was not too late. And it is not too late for you. What might you be missing by staying in the role you've always carried? And what new life could unfold if you trusted that your story is still being written? *This episode mentions an incident of rape; listener discretion is advised. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/
What if healing from purity culture requires more than naming how you were hurt? What if it also means asking how you participated? In this episode, Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen sit down with their colleague Dr. Lauren Sawyer, to explore her new book, Growing Up Pure. Lauren names something many haven't had language for: as teens, we weren't only victims of purity culture; we were also moral agents within it. We made choices. We found belonging. We sometimes resisted in small ways. And at times, we participated in systems that harmed others and ourselves. That tension between vulnerability and agency, harm and complicity can feel destabilizing. Yet Lauren invites us to see accountability not as punishment, but as a sacred, even hopeful, practice. What if repentance wasn't shame-driven, but a pathway toward integration? What if healing meant not only tending to the wounds purity culture caused, but also examining how we were formed by—and sometimes upheld—it? This episode is honest, nuanced, and tender. It creates space to grieve the damage of purity culture while also imagining a different story. One rooted in the belief that we are made in the image of God as embodied, relational, sexual beings… and that restoration is possible. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/
Sexual addiction is often treated as a behavior problem. Stop the behavior. Remove the temptation. Try harder next time. But what if the behavior is not the real issue? What if the patterns that bring shame, secrecy, and self-sabotage are actually revealing something deeper about the story you carry? This week on Win Today, therapist and researcher Jay Stringer joins me to unpack the anatomy of sexual addiction and unwanted sexual behavior. Drawing from research involving more than 3,800 men and women, Jay explains why these patterns are rarely random and how the unresolved parts of our past often shape them. We talk about why shame keeps people trapped in destructive cycles, why curiosity is often the first step toward healing, and why grief has the surprising power to reshape what we desire. Sexual struggles are not simply moral failures to suppress. They can become a roadmap that leads us toward the healing we have avoided. If you are stuck in patterns you cannot explain, if shame has kept you silent, or if you've tried to manage the behavior without understanding the story behind it, this episode will help you see why real freedom begins with honesty. Guest Bio Jay Stringer is a licensed therapist, minister, and researcher who helps men and women understand and outgrow unwanted sexual behaviors. He is the author of the award-winning book Unwanted: How Sexual Brokenness Reveals Our Way to Healing, based on a multiyear research study involving more than 3,800 men and women exploring the roots of sexual addiction and compulsive sexual behavior. Jay is also the creator of the Sexual Behavior Self-Assessment and The Journey Course, a five-month program designed to help individuals identify and transform the deeper drivers behind destructive patterns. He holds an MDiv and a master's degree in counseling psychology from The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology and completed post-graduate training under Dr. Dan Allender while serving as a Senior Fellow at The Allender Center. Show Partner SafeSleeve designs a phone case that blocks up to 99% of harmful EMF radiation—so I'm not carrying that kind of exposure next to my body all day. It's sleek, durable, and most importantly, lab-tested by third parties. The results aren't hidden—they're published right on their site. And that matters because many so-called EMF blockers on the market either don't work or can't prove they do. We protect our hearts and minds—why wouldn't we protect our bodies too? Head to safesleevecases.com and use the code WINTODAY10 for 10% off your order. Episode Links Show Notes Buy my book "Healing What You Can't Erase" here! Invite me to speak at your church or event. Connect with me @WINTODAYChris on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.
How often do we think about disgust? Yet it shapes our choices, relationships, and even our faith every day in ways we rarely notice. In this episode of the Allender Center Podcast, Dr. Paul Hoard and Billie Hoard discuss their new book, "Eucontamination: Disgust Theology and the Christian Life," exploring how this powerful, often overlooked force influences us. Drawing from theology and psychology, they examine how disgust—originally designed to protect us—can become a tool for exclusion when applied to people rather than pathogens. From purity culture to nationalism to everyday relational divides, they consider how "contamination logic" forms the world around us. But the heart of their work is hopeful: Jesus doesn't abolish disgust—he inverts it. In Christ, holiness is not fragile. Love is stronger than sin. What looks contaminating does not defile him; instead, his presence transforms from within. This conversation invites us to reflect on where disgust may be shaping our reactions, relationships, and theology—and to imagine a discipleship formed by more courageous, more transformative love. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/
Who gets to tell the story? This week, Pastor James A. White returns to the Allender Center Podcast to explore why that question sits at the heart of Black History Month. Marking 100 years since Carter G. Woodson launched Negro History Week in February 1926, this episode examines how history has long been shaped by those in power — and how it remains at risk of erasure when we refuse to name the truth. From the creation of racial categories to modern claims of "colorblindness," division has been strategically constructed to preserve power, while silence continues to support a distorted narrative. But this conversation isn't only about what has been. It's about what is unfolding now. The same grasping for power, the same fear-based narratives, the same temptation to flatten difference are still at work today. Black history reveals both the cost of erasure and the brilliance of resilience. And it invites us to ask: What story are we participating in now? About Our Guest: James White is an architect of identity-driven leadership who designs environments where leaders and organizations align values, systems, and culture for lasting impact. As Senior Pastor of Christ Our King Community Church, he integrates strategy, story, and spiritual formation to develop leaders who strengthen both communities and institutions. James served for more than two decades as an Executive Vice President within large-scale, multi-million-dollar YMCA nonprofit systems—first in the Raleigh–Durham Triangle and later with the YMCA of the North in Minneapolis. In these executive roles, he designed leadership formation systems that developed emerging and senior-level leaders, aligned mission with operational execution, and strengthened organizational culture across complex community-based institutions. He has facilitated cross-sector leadership labs for executive teams in both for-profit and nonprofit sectors, creating learning environments focused on identity clarity, values alignment, governance structure, and systems coherence. Over the course of 40 years, James has engaged audiences across academia, think tanks, business, nonprofit organizations, state and local government, and professional sports organizations throughout the United States and Canada. At the core of his work is a simple conviction: identity shapes leadership, and both individuals and institutions have the opportunity to design a better story. Related Resources: Listen to "The Narratives of Marginalization" with Pastor James A. White and Linda Royster on the Allender Center Podcast. Explore Racial Trauma & Healing offerings from the Allender Center. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/
What if the freedom you long for is hidden in that final 3% of the truth you're afraid to share? This week, Dan and Rachael are joined by therapists Blake Roberts and Jamie Haigh of the Three Percent Podcast for a thoughtful conversation about holistic masculinity, loneliness, and the risk of real vulnerability. Blake and Jamie share the meaning behind the "three percent", which references the small but powerful parts of our story we hide in shame, and how naming them opens the door to deeper connection and freedom. Together, they explore why so many men feel alone, the difference between conquering and connecting, and how redemptive risk invites us into a fuller, more honest life. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/
In this episode of The Biggest Table, host Andrew Camp delves into the intersections of food, theology, and the psychological theory of disgust with Paul and Billie Hoard, who co-authored the book Eucontamination. Paul, a licensed counselor and psychoanalytic psychotherapist, and Billie, a trans woman and writer, discuss how concepts of disgust operate at both individual and sociological levels, impacting relationships within the church and society. They explore the theological implications of disgust, the transformative power of love, and how practices like the Eucharist and foot washing can help Christians move past disgust reactions to foster intimacy and community. They also share personal anecdotes, discuss their fondest and least favorite foods, and emphasize the critical importance of sharing meals to experience God's love and grow in fellowship.Paul Hoard, PhD, LMHC, is a licensed counselor, psychoanalytic psychotherapist, and associate professor of counseling psychology at The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. His scholarship focuses on Lacanian psychoanalytic theory, sexuality, white-body supremacy, perpetration-induced traumatic stress, and the theological logic of disgust. He has spoken and published internationally on topics including purity culture, trauma, eucontamination, and the intersections of theology and psychoanalysis. In addition to his academic work, Dr. Hoard maintains a private counseling practice and provides clinical supervision and consultation. He is the co-author, with his sister Billie Hoard, of the book Eucontamination: Disgust Theology and the Christian Life.Paul's Substack Billie Hoard is a trans woman, teacher, writer, and something of an Anabaptist radical. Together with her brother Paul, she is the author of "Eucontamination". Billie holds an MA in liberal arts from St. John's College & she writes about queerness, fairy tales, C. S. Lewis, theology & philosophy.Billie's SubstackThis episode of the Biggest Table is brought to you in part by Wild Goose Coffee. Since 2008, Wild Goose has sought to build better communities through coffee. For our listeners, Wild Goose is offering a special promotion of 20% off a one time order using the code TABLE at checkout. To learn more and to order coffee, please visit wildgoosecoffee.com.
Talking with kids about sex, pornography, and sexuality can stir up fear, shame, and a deep sense of inadequacy for many parents. In this episode, Dan and Rachael sit down with author and parent-educator Laurie Krieg to think through a steadier, wiser way forward—one rooted in the gospel, attunement, and ongoing relationship rather than one-time "big talks." Drawing from her new book "Raising Wise Kids in a Sexually Broken World," Laurie shares her own journey as she offers parents help to move from reactivity to intentionality. She names why these conversations feel so overwhelming—often because of our own unresolved stories—and invites parents to do their own work so they can show up with courage and calm. Rather than avoiding hard topics or responding with fear and control, Laurie offers concrete, age-appropriate ways to engage kids through many small conversations over time, helping parents become the trusted "anchor" their children return to when confusion, curiosity, or exposure inevitably arises. This conversation is especially helpful for parents navigating early exposure to pornography, online content, and rapidly changing technology. Laurie shares practical language parents can use, how to reduce shame when kids encounter inappropriate material, and how to frame boundaries not around fear, but around God's beautiful design for bodies, intimacy, and care. Throughout, the emphasis is clear: it's never too late to begin, repair matters more than perfection, and wisdom is something parents can grow into—step by step—as they walk alongside their children in a complex world. ===== About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. You can find transcripts, show notes, and more for each episode at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/
A parent blasts a Seattle elementary school for hosting a left-wing ‘Freedom March’ for kids. Democrats are pretending the GOP’s voter ID bill is tantamount to Jim Crow. New caseload standards are detriment to public safety in Washington. Ben and Jerry’s unveils a new Minneapolis-themed ice cream. // Big Local: Police in Redmond responded to reports of teens brandishing guns. Students across Washington walked out of class today to protest ICE. // You Pick the Topic: Would you choose more vacation time or a cash bonus?
Multiple Seattle schools delay classes after deadly Rainier Beach shooting, $5k reward issued // Former Seattle CC Member Mark Solomon and crime prevention expert on the benefits of neighborhood security cameras // DHS calls Seattle Mayor’s plan to limit city cooperation with ICE ‘legally illiterate’ // Trump says feds won't intervene during protests in Democratic-led cities unless asked to do so // No REAL ID yet? You can still fly, but it may cost $45 without another form of accepted ID // Video Guest- New KIRO Night Host Chad Benson of the Chad Benson Show // Letters
In a country that is hurting and fractured by deep division, many of us are wondering how to remain rooted in love. As followers of Jesus, the question before us is not simply what do we think, but how do we stay human, attentive, and faithful in such a time as this? In this thoughtful and spacious conversation, Rachael Clinton Chen welcomes theologian and author Kat Armas into a much-needed dialogue about power, imagination, and what it means to remain grounded and joined together in the way of Jesus. Drawing from her newest book, "Liturgies for Resisting Empire: Seeking Community, Belonging, and Peace in a Dehumanizing World," Kat invites listeners beyond political binaries and party lines into a deeper reckoning with how power has shaped our stories. Here, empire names more than a political system. It refers to any way of organizing life—political, theological, cultural, or personal—that relies on power and fear to preserve itself, rather than love, humility, and mutual care. Often, its influence goes unnamed, shaping our imaginations, our bodies, our relationships, and even our spirituality. Against this backdrop, Kat offers liturgies as embodied practices that can steady us, give us language when words feel thin, and help us resist dehumanization together. This episode is not about debating political parties or policies. Instead, it invites us to slow down, to notice what's been "in the water" all along, and to return our attention to Jesus. We hope this conversation offers something more sustaining than easy answers—a holy resistance shaped by presence, community, and love. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/
Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, is a formative voice in the movement toward healing from spiritual abuse. As a trauma care practitioner and pastoral leader, she weaves together theology, psychology, and story to accompany individuals and communities toward a kind of wholeness and resilient faith that tells the truth and pursues repair. She serves as a lead instructor for the Allender Center at The Seattle School and is co-host of the Allender Center Podcast with Dr. Dan Allender. Rachael is a stormborn woman of the Oklahoma plains and received a Bachelor of Arts in Religion from Oklahoma Baptist University. She holds a Master of Divinity from The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology and recently had the honor of being named by Sojourners as one of "9 Christian Women Shaping the Church in 2024." Rachael is devoted to addressing the harm of abuse – especially spiritual abuse – at the intersection of trauma, healing, embodiment and spiritual formation. She leads the Story Workshop for Spiritual Abuse & Healing and recently developed the Allender Center's Spiritual Abuse & Healing Online Course, inviting survivors of spiritual abuse to journey together towards healing and reclamation.
Faith, hope, and love are beautiful words—but for many of us, they don't feel simple or safe. When they've been wielded to control, silence, or shame, these core concepts can carry weight, confusion, and even fear. In the wake of spiritual abuse, what once promised life can feel distorted or out of reach. Today, Dan and Rachael step tenderly and courageously into what it means to reclaim faith, hope, and love after harm. Rather than treating faith as certainty, hope as optimism, or love as obedience, they reframe these virtues as deeply human, relational realities: faith as trust, hope as imagination for a future shaped by goodness, and love as a force grounded in honor, freedom, and delight. Together, they name how spiritual abuse exploits fear and shame to protect power—fracturing our ability to trust ourselves, others, and even God. Healing doesn't begin with forcing a set of dogmatic beliefs, but with safety: learning to listen to our bodies, recover discernment, and engage relationships where difference and nuance are welcomed. This conversation is for anyone longing to rediscover a faith that makes room for personhood, courage, and love that does not demand fear in return. ===== About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/
Seattle schools are stressing student safety after fake reports of ICE activity. Jack Smith was called before the House Judiciary Committee to answer for his political persecution of Trump. // Big Local: Pierce County Prosecuting Attorney Mary Robnett addresses the memo she sent to Sheriff Keith Swank. Activists protested outside Congressman Michael Baumgartner’s Spokane office during the national anti-ICE walkouts. // You Pick the Topic: Children's content creator Ms. Rachel issued an apology for liking an antisemitic comment on social media.
Dr. Roy Barsness is the author of the text, Core Competencies in Relational Psychoanalysis: A Guide to Practice, Study and Research (Routledge, 2018) and author of the text: Psychodynamic Supervision: In a New Key (Routledge, 2025). He has published several professional articles, presents frequently at professional conferences and teaches nationally and internationally on relational psychoanalysis. He is the Founder and Executive Director of the Contemporary Psychodynamic Institute, former Professor of Psychology and Academic Dean at The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology and served as the Clinical Director of the Clinical Psychology Program at Seattle Pacific University and Clinical Associate Professor at the University of Washington-School of Medicine. You can find out more by visiting his lecture series at the Contemporary Psychodynamic Institute: / @contemporarypsycho or by visiting his website: https://roybarsness.com/ ***The Mind Mate Podcast explores the human condition at the intersection of philosophy and psychotherapy. Hosted by counsellor and psychotherapist Tom Ahern, the podcast engages deeply with questions of meaning, anxiety, freedom, identity, death, love, and what it means to live authentically in the modern world. Find out more here: https://ahern.blog/
No, ICE agents have not been on the scene at Seattle schools. Democrats in Olympia are once again trying to change the law so that homeless encampments can pop up anywhere. Trump spoke at a press conference today to tout his accomplishments on the one-year anniversary of his second term. // LongForm: GUEST: Pete Serrano sounds off on Senator Patty Murray’s efforts to force him out of his role as U.S. Attorney. // Quick Hit: Michigan Democrat Governor Gretchen Whitmer took the stage at the World Economic Forum and blamed Trump for the lack of investment in EVs.
Season 6 episode 18 rebecca j...and therapy - 1_8_26, 10.27 AMThu, Jan 08, 2026 10:40AM • 57:28SUMMARY KEYWORDSemotional metabolization, existential threat, destabilizing changes, social media, information overload, Venezuela crisis, racial identity, colonization, anti-blackness, white privilege, immigration policies, historical context, white supremacy, interdependence, narrative controlSPEAKERSSpeaker 3, Speaker 1, Speaker 2 Jenny 00:30I think something I'm sitting with is the impossibility and the necessity of trying to metabolize what's going on in our bodies. Yeah, and it feels like this double bind where I feel like we need to do it. We need to feel rage and grief and fear and everything else that we feel, and I don't think our nervous systems have evolved to deal with this level of overwhelm and existential threat that we're experiencing, but I do believe our bodies, Yeah, need space to try to do that, yeah,yesterday, I was sitting at, I don't know what's gonna happen to people anyway, Rebecca 01:45Pretty good. I'm okay. It like everyone. I think there's just a lot of crazy like and a lot of shifting to like, things that we could normally depend on as consistent and constant are not constant anymore. And that is like, it's very, 02:11I don't even have a word I want to say, disconcerting, but that's too light. There's, it's very destabilizing to to watch things that were constants and norms just be ripped out from underneath. People on like, every day there's something new that used to be illegal and now it's legal, or vice versa. Every day there's like, this new thing, and then you're having to think, like, how is that going to impact me? Is it going to impact me? How is it going to impact the people that I care about and love? Yeah, Danielle 02:52Jenny and I were just saying, like, maybe we could talk about just what's going on in the world right now, in this moment. And Jenny, I forgot how you were saying it like you were saying that we need to give our bodies space, but we also need to find a way to metabolize it so we can take action. I'm paraphrasing, but yeah, Rebecca 03:30And I would agree, and something else that I was thinking about too is like, what do you metabolize? And how do you metabolize it? Right? Like, in terms of what's happening in Venezuela, I have people that I count very dear to me who feel like it was a very appropriate action, and and people who are very dear to me who feel like absolutely not. That's ridiculous, right? And so, and I'm aware on that particular conversation, I'm not Venezuelan. I'm not I'm very aware that I stand on the outside of that community and I'm looking in on it, going, what do I need to know in order to metabolize this? What do I not know or not understand about the people who are directly impacted by this. And so I, like, I have questions even you know about some of the stuff that I'm watching. Like, what do you metabolize and how do you come to understand it? And in a place where it's very difficult to trust your information sources and know if the source that you're you're have is reliable or accurate or or complete in it, in its detail, it feels those are reasons why, to me, it feels really hard to metabolize things i. Jenny 05:06There's this like rule or like theory thing. I wish I could remember the name of it, but it's essentially like this, this graph that falls off, and it's like, the less you know about something, the more you think you know about it, and the more confident you are. And the more you know, the less confident you are. And it just explains so well our social media moment, and people that read like one headline and then put all these reels together and things talking about it. And on one hand, I'm grateful that we live in an age where we can get information about what's going on. And at the other end, like, you know, I know there, there's somewhere, some professor that's spent 15 years researching this and being like it is. There's so much here that people don't know and understand. And yeah, it feels like the sense of urgency is on purpose. Like that we just have to like it feels like people almost need to stay up to date with everything. But then I also wonder how much of that is whiteness and this idea of like, saviorism and like, if I'm just informed, then I'm doing my duty and like what I need to do and and what does it look like to slow down and be with things that are right in front of US and immediate, without ignoring these larger, transnational and global issues. Yeah, it feels so complicated. Rebecca 06:55I do think the sense of urgency is on purpose. I think that the overwhelming flood of information at this time is not just a function of like social media, but I think, I think the release of things and the timing of things is intentional, I think, and so I think there's a lot of Let's throw this one thing in front of you, and while you everybody's paying attention to that, let's do 10 other things behind closed doors that are equally, if not more, dangerous and harmful than the thing that we're letting You see up front. And so I think some of that is intentional. So I think that that sense of almost flooding is both about social media, yes, but it's also about, I think some of this is intentional, on purpose, flooding Jenny 08:01I think it's wise to ask those questions and try to sort of be paying attention to both what is being said and what is not being said. Rebecca 08:16Yeah, it may makes me think, even as you named Venezuela like my understanding is that that happened either the day of or the day before Congress was supposed to explain why they had redacted the Epstein files, and it just the lengths that they will go to to distract from actually releasing the files and showing the truth about Trump and Epstein and everyone else that was involved is, Speaker 2 08:52well, yeah, yeah, yes. And there's something in me that also wants to say, like it what happened around Venezuela might be 09:32and its natural resources is not a small thing. And then I was reminded today by someone else, this is also not the first time this country has done that. It might be the first time it was televised to the world, but so I don't Yes on the distraction. And I agree with you times 1000 10:09hard about this moment, is that there's all this stuff that's happening that's like absolutely we would be looking at, how do you possibly put any of that in any sense of order that it makes any sense? Because, yes, the FC, I mean, it's horrific. What we're talking about is likely in those files, and if they are that intent on them not coming out, if it's worse than what we already know, that's actually scary. Danielle 10:44Yeah, I agree that this isn't new, because this is it feels like, you know, Ibram X kendi was like, talking about, hey, like, this is what I'm talking about. This is what I'm talking about. And it feels as though, when we talk, I'm just going to back up, there's been this fight over what history are we teaching, you know, like, this is dei history, or this is, you know, critical race history. But in the end, I think we actually agree on the history more than we think. We just don't disagree on where we should take it. Now, what I think is happening is that, and you hear Donald J Trump talk about the Monroe Doctrine, or Vance talk about Manifest Destiny, or Stephen Miller, these guys talk about these historical things. They're talking about the history of colonization, but from a lens of like, this was good, this was not a mistake. Quote, slavery was not necessarily a bad thing. You have like Doug Wilson and these other Christian nationalists like unapologetically saying there was slavery. It's been throughout all time. This was, quote, a benefit people, you know, you have Charlie Kirk saying, you know, in the 1940s like pre civil rights movement, quote, I think he said, quote, black people were happier. He has said these things. So in my, in my mind, yes, they, they're they're saying, like, we don't want X taught in schools. But at the same time, they actually, we actually kind of agree on history. What we don't agree on is what we should do with it, or or who's in com, who's in control. Now, I think what they're saying is, this was history. We liked it, and we don't like the change in it, and we're just gonna keep doing it. I mean, they literally have reinstated the Monroe Doctrine, which is so racist, it's like, and manifest destiny is like, so fucked up to, like, put that back in place, like Rebecca said, I'm not, I'm not negating the murder that just happened in Minneapolis, but this concept that you you can tell who's human and that these resources belong to us, the only person human in the room, then, is the White man. I don't know. Does that make sense? It Rebecca 13:24makes me think of you know, when you talk about sort of identity formation, or racial identity formation, when you are talking about members of the majority culture and their story is, is this manifest destiny? Is this colonization and and the havoc and the harm that that they engaged in against whole people groups in order to gain the power? Do they, sort of, on a human level, metabolize the their membership in that group, and what that group has done the heart the and that it's come by its power by harming other people, right? And so in order to sort of metabolize that you can minimize it and dismiss it as not harmful. So that's the story, that slavery is not a bad thing, and that black people are happier under slavery, right? You can deny it and say that it didn't happen, or if it did, it wasn't me. That's Holocaust deniers, right? That didn't happen. I think what we're looking at now is the choice that some of the powers that be are making in order to metabolize this is to just call what is evil good, to just rewrite. Not the facts, but the meaning that that we draw from those facts. And then to declare, I have the right to do this, and when I do this, it makes me more powerful, it makes me a better leader, and it establishes rules and norms about right versus wrong. I think they're rewriting the meaning making as a way to kind of come to terms with what what they've done. And so I think that statement by the Vice President about you no longer have to apologize for being white in this country is actually about more than an apology. That was that is now, a couple of weeks later, after watching what happened in Venezuela, watching what happened in Minneapolis, watching what they're doing about Greenland, you go like, that's just a statement that we're going to do whatever the heck we want, and you cannot stop us, and we will do it without apology, and we will make you believe. We will craft a narrative that what is wrong is actually right, Jenny 16:43it just, it's, it's wild to me that our last time, or two times ago that we were talking, I was talking about Viola liozo, who was the white woman who drove black people during the bus boycott and was murdered, and the what feels like is being exposed is the precarity of white privilege, like it is Real. It exists, and so long as white people stay within the bounds of what is expected of them, and Renee good did not and I think that that is it Rebecca 17:36exposes what's already true, that I think racism and race are constructs to protect the system, and so if, no matter what your melanin is, if you start to move against the system, you immediately are at risk in a different way, and yet still not in the same way. You know, like there are already plenty of people who have died and been disappeared at the hands of ice. What happened is not new. What is new is that it did happen to a white woman, and it reveals something about where we are in the fulcrum, tip, I think, of of power and what's happening? 18:30because I think the same, like you said, is true during the Civil Rights Movement, right that in there, they're really they're most of their stories we don't know. There's a handful of them that we know about these, these white the people who believe themselves to be white, to quote on history codes, who were allies and who acted on behalf of the Civil Rights Movement and who lost their life because of it. There's probably way more than we know, because, again, those are stories that are not allowed to be told. But it makes me wonder if, if the exposure that you're talking about Jenny is because we were at some sort of tipping point right, in a certain sense, by the time you elect Obama in oh eight, you could make the argument that something of racial equality is beginning to be institutionalized in the country, right? I'm not saying that he solved everything and he was this panacea, but I'm saying when the system, when the people in the system, find a way to bring equilibrium. That's the beginning of something being institutionalized, right? And, and, and did that set off this sort of mass panic in the majority culture to say that that cannot happen? Mm. Yeah, and and, so there is this backlash to make sure that it doesn't happen, right? And to the extent that it's beginning to be institutionalized, that means that some members of the majority culture have begun to agree with the institutionalism of some kind of equilibrium, some type of equity, otherwise you wouldn't see it start to seep into the system itself, right? And it means that there are people who open doors, there are people who left Windows cracked open there, you know, there are, right? I mean, somebody somewhere that had the key to the door, left it unlocked, so, so that, so that a marginalized community could find an entrance, right? And and so it does make me think about, are we? Are we looking at this sort of historical tipping point? And what's being exposed is all these people are the majority culture who are on the wrong side of this argument. We need you to get back in line. I mean, if you read ta nehisi Coates book, eight years in power, he makes a sort of similar argument that that's what happened around reconstruction, right? You have the Emancipation Proclamation being signed, slavery is now illegal in the United States, and there's this period during reconstruction where there's mass sort of accomplishment that happens in the newly freed slave community. And then you see the rise of the Ku Klux Klan and the very violent backlash. This is not going to happen. We're not. We're not. And when, when I say what happened during Reconstruction, is like again, the beginning of the institutionalizing of that kind of equilibrium and equity that came out of the Emancipation Proclamation. Right? My kids were part of a genealogy project a few years back, and one of the things that they uncovered is they have a ancestor who was elected to this 22:27and while he was in office, he was instrumental in some of the initial funding that went to Hampton to establish Hampton University, right? And so that's the kind of institutionalized equity that starts to happen in this moment, and then this massive violent backlash, the rise of the Ku Klux, Klan, the black codes. We this is not going to happen. We're not doing this right. And so it does make me wonder if what we're actually looking at the exposure that you're talking about, Jenny is like the beginning of the this sort of equilibrium that could happen when you when things start to get institutionalized and and the powers that be going No way, no How, no dice, not doing that. Danielle 23:21I think that's true, and especially among immigrant communities. I don't know if you know, at the beginning, they were saying, like, we're just going after the violent criminals, right? And this morning, I watched on a news source I really trust, a video of a Somali citizen, a US citizen, but as a Somali background, man pulled over by ice like he's an Uber driver in Minneapolis. And they like, surrounded him, and he's like, wait a minute, I thought you were going after the violent criminals. And they're like, Well, you know, like, Are you a US citizen? He's like, Well, where's your warrant? And they're like, we're checking your license plate. He's like, well, then you know who I am. And then they want him to answer, and they keep provoking and they're like, Oh, you have a video on us. And he's like, Oh, you have a GoPro. He's like, I thought you were just going after violent criminals, you know? And they're like, no, we want to know if you're a US citizen. So in a sense, you know, there was all this rhetoric at the beginning that said, we you have to do it the right way. And I remember at the very beginning feeling afraid for Luis like, oh, man, shit, we did this the right way. I don't know if that's really guarantee. I don't think that's a guarantee of any guarantee of anything. And it's not doing well paying all the bills like it's expensive to become a citizen. It is not easy. Paying all the bills, going to the fingerprints, get in the test, hiring a lawyer, making sure you did it. Like cross, all your T's dot, all your eyes, just to get there and do it. And then they're saying, you know, and then they're saying, Well, prove it. Well, what do you have on your record? Or people showing up after having done all that work? They're showing up to their swearing in to be US citizens. And they're saying, Sorry, nope. And they're like, taken by ice. So you can see what you're saying. Rebecca first, it says violent criminals. Yeah, and you know, you have to have like, an FBI fingerprint background check. You had to do this, like, 10 years ago. Whenever Luis became a citizen, that's like, serious shit, you get your background check. So by the time you're into that swearing in, they know who you are, like you're on record, they know who you are, so they've done all that work. So this is not about being a criminal. This is about there's somebody successful that's possibly not white, that has done all the right things, paid all the fees, has the paperwork, and you don't like them because they're not white. And I think that's directly related to anti blackness. Rebecca 25:40Yeah. Say more about the anti blackness, because we started this conversation talking about Somalis and and Somalis are only the latest target of ice, right? It started with people of Latino descent. So how does that for you come down to anti blackness? Oh, for me, Danielle 26:02I see it as a as a projection. I can't tolerate my feelings about, quote, people of color, but let's be more specific about black people, and I can't tolerate those feelings. And for a time, I think we were in this sliver of time where it was not quite it was still like gaining social momentum to target black folks, but it was still a little bit off limits, like we were still like, oh, it's the criminals. Oh, it's these bad, bad guys. I know it's just the Latinos or, Oh, it's just this, this and this and this. But then if you notice, you start watching these videos, you start noticing they're like, they're grabbing, like, Afro Latinos. They're like, they're like, pushing into that limit, right? Or Puerto Rican folks they've grabbed, who are US citizens? So now you see the hate very clearly moving towards black folks. Like, how does an untrained $50,000 bonus ice agent know if, quote, a black person, quote, you know, if we're talking in the racial construct, has a Somali background or not, right? Right? It actually feels a little bit to me like grooming, right? Rebecca 27:24I I've asked myself this question several times in the past couple of years, like, and if, and I think some of the stuff that I've read like about the Holocaust, similar question, right? Was like, is racism really the thing that is that is driving this or is it something else, like at the at the heart of it, at the end of the day, are you really driven by racialized hate of someone that is different than you? Or is that just the smoke screen that the architects of this moment are using because you'll fall for it, right? And so I do think like you start with the criminals, because that's socially acceptable, and then you move very quickly from the criminals to everybody in that ethnic group, right? And so you see the supreme court now saying that you can stop and frisk somebody on the basis of a surname 28:22or an accent, Rebecca 28:26right? And it feels very much like grooming, because what was socially acceptable was first this very small subset, and now we've expanded to a whole people group, and now we've jumped from one country to another, which is why I think you know MLK is quote about injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. If you're going to come for one subset, you will eventually come for everyone, until the only subset is those in power versus those that aren't. Danielle 29:05Or just, let me just ask you this question then, so you got he's enforcing immigration bans on certain countries. Guess who the where the majority of those countries are located, Africa. Now, why didn't he do that with Latin the Latin America? It's very interesting, Rebecca 29:29and my fear is that it's coming right again. It's socially acceptable in this country to be anti black. Everyone understands that, and then you move from anti black to anti everybody else. And what you say is this, this people group is closer to black than white, and for that reason, they're out too, which is also not a new argument in this country. Jenny 29:58It makes me think of someone you. To this illustration, then I will not get it probably exactly how it is, but it was basically like if I have a room of 10 people, and I need to control those 10 people, I don't need to control those 10 people. I need to make a scapegoat out of three of them, and then the other seven will be afraid to be that scapegoat. And I feel like that is a part of what's going on, where, viscerally, I think that, again, like white bodies know, like it is about race and it's not about race, like race is the justification of hatred and tyrannical control. And I really love the book by Walter Rodney, how Europe underdeveloped Africa. And he traces like what Europe, and I would include the US now has done to the continent of what is so called Africa, and it didn't in the end, that it was used to create race and racism in order to justify exploitation and of people and resources. And so it's like, yeah, I think at the end of the day, it's really not about race, and it is because of the way in which that's been used to marginalize and separate even from the construction of whiteness, was to try to keep lower socioeconomic whites from joining with formerly enslaved black people and indigenous people to revolt against the very few people that actually hold power, like there are way more people that lack power. But if, if those in power can keep everyone siloed and divided and afraid, then they get to stay in power. Danielle 32:01That's where I come back to history. And I feel like, I feel like these guys like JD Vance and Stephen Miller love our history and hate the parts of it that are leading towards liberation. For people, they love that they love the colonization. They talk about it. They've there's a fantasy. They're living in, this fantasy of what could be, of what was for one set of people, and that was white men. And they're enacting their fantasy on us in some ways, you know, I think the question of, you know, Jenny, you always deal with bodies, and, you know, you're kind of known for that shit, I think, I think, just like, but the question of, like, who has a body when, when? Like, when does the body count? You know, like, when does it matter? And it feels like that's where race becomes really useful, 33:09because it gets to say, like, you know, like, that white lady, that's not really, that's not really a murder, you know. Or, you know, George Floyd, like, Nah, that's not really it, you know, just com, and they knew there's so many other lynchings and murders. Like, we can't cover them all. I just think it's just speaks to, like, who, you know, another way to say it'd be like, who's human and who's not. Jenny 33:42And like I sent you. Danielle, there was a post yesterday that someone said, those white lives matter. People seem to be really silent right now. And it just exposes, like the the hypocrisy, even in that and the, I think, the end of not the end, because racial privilege is still there, but, but this moment is exposing something, I think, as you're naming Rebecca, like it feels like this really scary tipping, and maybe hopeful tipping, where it's like there's enough, maybe fear or grasping of power, that there's enough desperation to execute a white woman, which historically and now, I think it says something about where we are in this moment. And I don't know exactly what yet, but I think it's, it's very exposing. Rebecca 34:43Yeah, but my what floats across my mind when you say that is really what has been the narrative or trajectory for white women? Because I think if you start to pull on stories like Emmett Till. 35:01Soul, and you realize what has been done in the name of protecting white women that doesn't actually feel like protection, right, right? And so, so again, you almost have this sense of like white femininity being this pawn, right? And you and you can have this narrative that that sounds like it's protection, sounds like it's value, but really it's not right. I only pull that out and use it when it when it gives me permission to do what I really want to do, right? 35:43And so in this moment. Now, you know, I mean, Emmett Till died because he was accused of looking inappropriately at a white woman, right? More recently, that incident with the the bird watcher in Central Park, right? I mean, his freedom is is under threat because of a white woman and, and then how do we go from that to ice killing a white woman and, and what like you said? What does that actually say about the value of white women, Was it, was it ever really recognized by the powers that be, right? Or is that like a straw man that I put up so I can have permission to do whatever I want? Jenny 36:36Absolutely, yeah, I think the trope of protecting white womanhood. It's it's always given women privilege and power, but that is only in proximity to white men and performing white womanhood. And you know, as you were talking about, the rise of lynchings, it did begin after reconstruction, and it really coincided with the first movie ever shown in theaters, which was Birth of a Nation they showed, yeah, white men in blackface, sexually assaulting a white woman, and the absolute frenzy and justification that that evoked was, we're protecting our white women, which was really always about protecting racial and class privilege, not the sovereignty of the bodies of white women, Rebecca 37:33right, right? And so we're back to your original thought, that what now is exposed, you know, with what happened in Minnesota is it's not really about protecting her and she's expendable. She is, quote, a domestic terrorist 37:56now so that we can justify what we're doing, Jenny 38:15which I think subconsciously at least white bodies have always known like there is something of I am safe and I am protected and I am privileged, so long as I keep performing whiteness. Rebecca 38:39I mean, the thing that scares me about that moment is that now we've gone Danielle from the criminals to the brown skinned citizens to white women who can be reclassified and recast as Domestic Terrorists if you don't toe the line, right? They're coming for everybody, because, because now we have a new category of people that ice has permission to go after, right? And again, it reminds me, if you look back at the black codes, which, again, got established during that same time period as you're talking about Birth of a Nation, Jenny, it became illegal for black people to do a whole host of things, to congregate, to read all kinds of things, right to vote, and in some states, it became illegal for white people to assist them in accomplishing any of those tasks. I Yeah, Danielle 39:53I mean, it's just the obliteration of humanity like the. Literal like, let me any humanity that can you can connect with your neighbor on let me take that away. Let me make it illegal for you to have that human share point with your neighbor. I really, that really struck me. I think it was talking about the the Minnesota mayor saying they're trying to get you to see your neighbor as like, less than human. He's like, don't fall for it. Don't fall for it. And I agree, like, we can't fall for it. I'm mean, it's like that. I Jenny 40:45don't know if you know that famous quote from Nazi Germany that was, like, they came for the Jews. And I didn't say anything because I wasn't a Jew. They, you know? And we've seen this, and we've all grown up with this, and the fact that so many people collectively have been like, well, you know, I'm not a criminal, well, I'm not an immigrant, well, I'm not, and it's like it this beast is coming for everybody, Rebecca 41:13yeah, well, and I, you know, I think That as long as we have this notion of individualism that I only have to look out for me and mine, and it doesn't matter what happens to anyone else. That is allowed the dynamic that you're talking about Jenny is allowed to flourish and until we come to some sense of interdependence until we come to some sense of the value of the person sitting next to me, and until we come to some sense of, if it isn't well with them, it cannot possibly be well with me. That sort of sense of, Well, I'm not a criminal, I'm not a Jew, so I don't have to worry about it is gonna flourish. 42:09Yesterday, I jumped42:12on Facebook for a second, and somebody that I would consider a dear friend had a lengthy Facebook post about how in favor he was of the President's actions in Venezuela, and most of his rationale was how this person, this dictator, was such a horrible person and did all of these horrible things. And my first reaction was, like, very visceral. I don't, I can't even finish this post like, I just, I mean, this is very visceral, like, and, and I don't want to talk to you anymore, and I'm not sure that our 20 plus years of friendship is sufficient to overcome how, how viscerally I am against the viewpoint that you just articulated, and I find myself, you know, a day later, beginning to wonder, Where is there some value in his perspective as a Latino man, what, what is his experience like that, that he feels so strongly about the viewpoint that he feels? And I'm not saying that he's right. I'm saying that if we don't learn to pause for a second and try to sit in the shoes of the other person before dismissing their value as a human. We will forever be stuck in the loop that we're in, right? I don't you know, I don't know that I will change my opinion about how much as an American, I have problems with the US president, snatching another leader and stealing the resources of their country. But I'm trying to find the capacity to hear from a man of Latino descent the harm that has been done to the people of Venezuela under this dictator, right? And I have to make myself push past that visceral reaction and try to hear something of what he's saying. And I would hope that he would do the same. I. Danielle 45:06I don't have words for it. You know, it just feels so deep, like it feels like somewhere deep inside the dissonance and also the want to understand, I think we're all being called, you know, Rebecca, this moment is, you know, this government, this moment, the violence, it's, it's, it's extracting our ability to stay with people like and it's such a high cost to stay with people. And I get that, I'm not saying it isn't, but I think what you're talking about is really important. Rebecca 45:57like you said, Jenny earlier, when you were talking about like, the more you know about something, the less confident you are, right? It's like, I can name, I am not Venezuelan, right? I can name I don't even think I know anybody who's from Venezuela, and if I do, I haven't taken the time to learn that you're actually from Venezuela, right, right? And I don't know anything about the history or culture of that country or the dictator that that was taken out of power. But I have seen, I can see in my friend's Facebook post that that's, it's a very painful history that he feels very strongly about. I so mostly that makes me as a black American, pause on how, on how much I want To dismiss his perspective because it's different than mine. Jenny 47:22I yeah, it also makes me think of how we're so conditioned to think in binaries and like, can there be space to hold the impossible both and where it's like, who am I to say whether or not people feel and are liberated or not in another country? I guess time will tell to see what happens. But for those that are Venezuelan and that are celebrating the removal of Maduro like can that coexist with the dangerous precedent of kidnapping a leader of a foreign country and starting immediately to steal their resources and and how do we Do this impossible dance of holding how complex these these experiences are that we're trying to navigate Rebecca 48:29and to self declare on national TV that like you're the self appointed leader of the country until, until whenever right some arbitrary line that you have drawn that you will undoubtedly change six times. I mean the danger of that precedent. It is I don't have vocabulary for how problematic that is. Danielle 48:57I don't mean to laugh, but if you didn't believe in white supremacy before, I would be giving you a lesson, and this is how it works, and it's awesome. Jenny 49:10And like you're saying, Rebecca, like I love books are coming to me today. There's another one called How to hide an empire and it Chase. It tracks from western expansion in what is now known as the United States to imperialism in the Philippines, in Puerto Rico, like in all of these places where we have established Dominion as a nation, as an empire, and what feels new is how televised and public this is, that people are being forced to confront it, hopefully in a different way, and maybe there can be more of this collective like way to psych it. This isn't what I'm supporting, because. I think for so long, this two party system that we've been force fed has a lot of difference when it comes to internal politics in the United States, but when it comes to transnational and international politics, it's been pretty much very similar for Democrats and Republicans in terms of what our nation is willing to do to other nations that we are conditioned not to think about. And so I think there's a hope. There's a desire for a hope for me to be like, Okay, can we see these other nations as humans and what the US has always done since the beginning. Rebecca 50:45you know, there's what actually happened, and then there's the history book story that we tell about what happened, right? And it like, it like what Danielle said. It appears to me that white supremacy is just blatantly at play, right? Like they're not hiding it at all. They're literally telling you, I can walk I can walk into another country, kidnap its leader and steal its resources. And I will tell you, that's what I'm doing. I will show you video footage of me intercepting oil tankers. I right like, and I will televise the time, place and location of my meeting with all the oil executives to get the oil um and and I'd like to be able to say that that is a new moment in history, and that what feels different is that we've never been so blatant about it, but I'm not sure that's true, right? I would love to have a time machine and be able to go back in some other point in time in American history and find out what they printed on the front page of the newspaper while they were stealing Africans from Africa or all the other while they were committing genocide against all the Native American tribes and all the other places and countries and people groups that the United States has basically taken their people and their resources. And so I don't know if this is different. I don't because, because the history books that I read would suggest that it is that right, but I don't. You can't always trust the narrative that we've been taught. Right? When I think there's an African proverb but as long as history is told by the lion, it will always favor the lion. Jenny 52:55I love you. Really good to be with you. Love you. Bye. Bye. See You Bio: Jenny - Co-Host Podcast (er):I am Jenny! (She/Her) MACP, LMHCI am a Licensed Mental Health Counselor, Somatic Experiencing® Practitioner, Certified Yoga Teacher, and an Approved Supervisor in the state of Washington.I have spent over a decade researching the ways in which the body can heal from trauma through movement and connection. I have come to see that our bodies know what they need. By approaching our body with curiosity we can begin to listen to the innate wisdom our body has to teach us. And that is where the magic happens!I was raised within fundamentalist Christianity. I have been, and am still on my own journey of healing from religious trauma and religious sexual shame (as well as consistently engaging my entanglement with white saviorism). I am a white, straight, able-bodied, cis woman. I recognize the power and privilege this affords me socially, and I am committed to understanding my bias' and privilege in the work that I do. I am LGBTQIA+ affirming and actively engage critical race theory and consultation to see a better way forward that honors all bodies of various sizes, races, ability, religion, gender, and sexuality.I am immensely grateful for the teachers, healers, therapists, and friends (and of course my husband and dog!) for the healing I have been offered. I strive to pay it forward with my clients and students. Few things make me happier than seeing people live freely in their bodies from the inside out!Rebecca A. Wheeler Walston, J.D., Master of Arts in CounselingEmail: asolidfoundationcoaching@gmail.comPhone: +1.5104686137Website: Rebuildingmyfoundation.comI have been doing story work for nearly a decade. I earned a Master of Arts in Counseling from Reformed Theological Seminary and trained in story work at The Allender Center at The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. I have served as a story facilitator and trainer at both The Allender Center and the Art of Living Counseling Center. I currently see clients for one-on-one story coaching and work as a speaker and facilitator with Hope & Anchor, an initiative of The Impact Movement, Inc., bringing the power of story work to college students.By all accounts, I should not be the person that I am today. I should not have survived the difficulties and the struggles that I have faced. At best, I should be beaten down by life‘s struggles, perhaps bitter. I should have given in and given up long ago. But I was invited to do the good work of (re)building a solid foundation. More than once in my life, I have witnessed God send someone my way at just the right moment to help me understand my own story, and to find the strength to step away from the seemingly inevitable ending of living life in defeat. More than once I have been invited and challenged to find the resilience that lies within me to overcome the difficult moment. To trust in the goodness and the power of a kind gesture. What follows is a snapshot of a pivotal invitation to trust the kindness of another in my own story. May it invite you to receive to the pivotal invitation of kindness in your own story. Listen with me…Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health ResourcesIf you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.Kitsap County / Local ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call LinePhone: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach TeamEmergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS)Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now”Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the PeninsulasPhone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-ResourcesLocal crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap CountyWebsite: https://namikitsap.org/Peer support groups, education, and resources for individuals and families affected by mental illness.Statewide & National Crisis ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They Offer988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988)Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.Washington Recovery Help Line1‑866‑789‑1511Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesHelp for mental health, substance use, and problem gambling; 24/7 statewide support.WA Warm Line877‑500‑9276Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.Native & Strong Crisis LifelineDial 988 then press 4Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesCulturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.Additional Helpful Tools & Tips• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.Rebecca A. Wheeler Walston, J.D., Master of Arts in CounselingEmail: asolidfoundationcoaching@gmail.comPhone: +1.5104686137Website: Rebuildingmyfoundation.comI have been doing story work for nearly a decade. I earned a Master of Arts in Counseling from Reformed Theological Seminary and trained in story work at The Allender Center at The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. I have served as a story facilitator and trainer at both The Allender Center and the Art of Living Counseling Center. I currently see clients for one-on-one story coaching and work as a speaker and facilitator with Hope & Anchor, an initiative of The Impact Movement, Inc., bringing the power of story work to college students.By all accounts, I should not be the person that I am today. I should not have survived the difficulties and the struggles that I have faced. At best, I should be beaten down by life‘s struggles, perhaps bitter. I should have given in and given up long ago. But I was invited to do the good work of (re)building a solid foundation. More than once in my life, I have witnessed God send someone my way at just the right moment to help me understand my own story, and to find the strength to step away from the seemingly inevitable ending of living life in defeat. More than once I have been invited and challenged to find the resilience that lies within me to overcome the difficult moment. To trust in the goodness and the power of a kind gesture. What follows is a snapshot of a pivotal invitation to trust the kindness of another in my own story. May it invite you to receive to the pivotal invitation of kindness in your own story. Listen with me… Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.
Part 1:We talk with Michael Tomasky, editor, The New Republic.We discuss Trump's work against the Western Alliance (NATO and associated countries). Unfortunately, very few mechanisms exist to check his actions, especially in light of the fealty of the Supreme Court. Polls seem to have no meaning.Part 2:We talk with Erin M. Carr, Asst. Prof. lf Law, Seattle School of Law.We discuss the extensive use of the "shadow docket" of the Supreme Court to make its rulings, favoring Trump. The Court is doing "sane-washing" of his claims, no matter how they conflict with established law and the Constitution. WNHNFM.ORG production
Hey everybody, this is a special Christmas episode where I'm joined by Michael Morelli (Personalist Manifesto podcast) and Paul Hoard (professor at The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology) for a live conversation about what the Incarnation has to say to our algorithmically-mediated moment. We get into Advent as a season of waiting in a world obsessed with immediacy and prediction—drawing on Lacan's understanding of desire, Hartmut Rosa on resonance, and Byung-Chul Han's "hell of the same" to explore how our devices have trained us to be unable to tolerate longing. We talk about incarnation versus ex-carnation (yes, we went there), why smoothness is a trap, how the manger subverts our fantasies of a powerful God, and what Bonhoeffer's Christ-reality hermeneutic might offer disciples trying to encounter genuine otherness in a world of narcissistic loops and NPC-ification. Paul brings the psychoanalytic heat on disgust, love, and why intimacy requires being changed by the other, and Michael reminds us that the cosmos hasn't actually been hijacked by Silicon Valley—despite appearances. We also talk about Black Mirror, The Good Place, board games, and whether Star Trek is secretly fascist. It's nerdy, it's hopeful, and it's exactly the kind of thing you need while driving to Christmas gatherings with sleeping family members in the car. You can WATCH the conversation on YouTube Join us at Theology Beer Camp, October 8-10, in Kansas City! UPCOMING ONLINE CLASS: The Rise of the Nones One-third of Americans now claim no religious affiliation. That's 100 million people. But here's what most church leaders get wrong: they're not all the same. Some still believe in God. Some are actively searching. Some are quietly indifferent. Some think religion is harmful. Ryan Burge & Tony Jones have conducted the first large-scale survey of American "Nones", which reveals 4 distinct categories—each requiring a different approach. Understanding the difference could transform everything from your ministry to your own spiritual quest. Get info & join the donation-based class (including 0) here. This podcast is a Homebrewed Christianity production. Follow the Homebrewed Christianity, Theology Nerd Throwdown, & The Rise of Bonhoeffer podcasts for more theological goodness for your earbuds. Join over 75,000 other people by joining our Substack - Process This! Get instant access to over 50 classes at www.TheologyClass.com Follow the podcast, drop a review, send feedback/questions or become a member of the HBC Community. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Welcome to the Arise podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, gender, the church, and what are we seeing in reality right now? So Jenny and I dive in a little bit about therapy. The holidays, I would don't say the words collective liberation, but it feels like that's what we're really touching on and what does that mean in this day and age? What are we finding with one another? How are we seeking help? What does it look like and what about healing? What does that mean to us? This isn't like a tell all or the answer to all the problems. We don't have any secret knowledge. Jenny and I are just talking out some of the thoughts and feeling and talking through what does it mean for us as we engage one another, engage healing spaces, what do we want for ourselves? And I think we're still figuring that out. You're just going to hear us going back and forth talking and thank you for joining. Danielle (00:10):Welcome to the Arise podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, gender, the church, and what are we seeing in reality right now? So Jenny and I dive in a little bit about therapy. The holidays, I would don't say the words collective liberation, but it feels like that's what we're really touching on and what does that mean in this day and age? What are we finding with one another? How are we seeking help? What does it look like and what about healing? What does that mean to us? This isn't like a tell all or the answer to all the problems. We don't have any secret knowledge. Jenny and I are just talking out some of the thoughts and feeling and talking through what does it mean for us as we engage one another, engage healing spaces, what do we want for ourselves? And I think we're still figuring that out. You're just going to hear us going back and forth talking and thank you for joining. Download, subscribe. So Jenny, we were just talking about therapy because we're therapists and all. And what were you saying about it?Jenny (01:17):I was saying that I'm actually pretty disillusioned with therapy and the therapy model as it stands currently and everything. I don't want to put it in the all bad bucket and say it's only bad because obviously I do it and I, I've done it myself. I am a therapist and I think there is a lot of benefit that can come from it, and I think it eventually meets this rub where it is so individualistic and it is one person usually talking to one person. And I don't think we are going to dismantle the collective systems that we need to dismantle if we are only doing individual therapy. I think we really need to reimagine what healing looks like in a collective space.Danielle (02:15):Yeah, I agree. And it's odd to talk about it both as therapists. You and I have done a lot of groups together. Has that been different? I know for me as I've reflected on groups. Yeah. I'll just say this before you answer that. As I've reflected on groups, when I first started and joined groups, it was really based on a model of there's an expert teacher, which I accepted willingly because I was used to a church or patriarchal format. There's expert teacher or teachers like plural. And then after that there's a group, and in your group there's an expert. And I viewed that person as a guru, a professional, of course, they were professional, they are professionals, but someone that might have insider knowledge about me or people in my group that would bring that to light and that knowledge alone would change me or being witnessed, which I think is important in a group setting would change me. But I think part of the linchpin was having that expert guide and now I don't know what I think about that.(03:36):I think I really appreciate the somatic experiencing model that would say my client's body is the wisest person in the room.(03:46):And so I have shifted over the years from a more directive model where I'm the wisest person in the room and I'm going to name these things and I'm going to call these things out in your story to how do I just hold a space for your body to do what your body knows how to do? And I really ascribe to the idea that trauma is not about an event. It's about not having a safe place to go in the midst of or after an event. And so I think we need safe enough places to let our bodies do what our bodies have really evolved to do. And I really trust that more and more that less is more, and actually the more that I get out of the way and my clients can metabolize what they need to, that actually I think centers their agency more. Because if I'm always needing to defer my story to someone else to see things, I'm never going to be able to come into my own and say, no, I actually maybe disagree with you, or I see that differently, or I'm okay not figuring that out or whatever it might be. I get to stay centered in my own agency. And I think a professional model disavow someone of their own agency and their own ability to live their story from the inside outDanielle (05:19):To live their story from the inside out. I think maybe I associate a lot of grief with that because as you talk about it, you talk about maybe seeking healing in this frame, going to school for this frame, and I'm not dismissing all of the good parts of that or the things that I discovered through those insights, but sometimes I think even years later I'm like, why didn't they stick? If I know that? Why didn't they stick? Or why do I still think about that and go through my own mental gymnastics to think what is actually healing? What does it have to look like if that thing didn't stick and I'm still thinking about it or feeling it, what does that say about me? What does that say about the therapy? I think for me, the lack of ongoing collective places to engage those kinds of feelings have allowed things to just bumble on or not really get lodged in me as an alternative truth. Does that make sense?Jenny (06:34):Yeah. But one of the things I wonder is healing a lie? I have yet to meet someone I know that I get to know really well and I go, yeah, this person is healed regardless of the amount of money they've spent in therapy, the types of body work they've done. What if we were all just more honest about the fact that we're all messy and imperfect and beautiful and everything in between and we stopped trying to chase this imagined reality of healing that I don't actually think exists?(07:30):Well, I think I've said it before on here. I used to think it was somewhere I was going to get to where I wouldn't feel X, y, Z. So maybe it meant I got to a space where on the holidays I often feel sad. I have my whole life and I feel sad this year. So does that mean somehow the work that I've put in to understand that sadness, that I'm not healed because I still feel sadness? And I think at the beginning I felt like if I'm still feeling sadness, if there are triggers that come around the holidays, then that means that I'm not healed or I haven't done enough work or there's something wrong with me for needing more support. So now I'm wondering if healing more, and I think we talked about this a little bit before too, is more the growing awareness. How does it increase connection versus create isolation for me when I feel sad? That's one example I think of. What about you?Jenny (08:31):I think about the last time I went to Uganda and there's so much complexity with my role in Uganda as a white woman that was stepping into a context to bring healing. And my final time in Uganda, I was co-facilitating a workshop for Ugandan psychotherapists and I had these big pieces of parchment paper around the room with different questions because I thought that they would be able to be more honest if it was anonymous. And so one of the pieces of paper said, what would you want westerners to know who were coming to Uganda to do healing work? And it was basically 100% learn what healing means to us.(09:26):Bring your own ideas of healing, stop, try, stop basically. And for whatever reason, that time was actually able to really hear that and go, I'd actually have no place trying to bring my form of healing and implement that. You all have your own form of healing. And one of the things that they also said on that trip was for you, healing is about the individual. For us, healing is about reintegrating that person into the community. And that might mean that they still have trauma and they still have these issues, but if they are accepted and welcomed in, then the community gets to support them through that. It's not about bringing this person out and fixing them over here and then plucking them back. It's how does the community care for bodies that have been injured? And I think about how I broke my foot in dance class when I was 14 and I had to have reconstructive surgery and my foot and my ankle and my knee and my hip and my whole body have never been the same. I will never go back to a pre broken foot body. So why would we emotionally, psychologically, spiritually be any different? And I think some of it comes from this Christian cosmology of Eden that we're just keep trying to find ourselves back in Eden. And this is something I feel like I've learned from our dear friend, Rebecca Wheeler Walston, which is like, no, we're not going back to Eden. How do we then live in this post perfect pre-injury world that is messy and unhealed, but also how can we find meaning and connection in that?(11:28):That was a lot of thoughts, but that's kind of what comes up for me.Danielle (11:31):Oh man, there's a couple of things you said and I was like, oh, wait a minute, wait a minute. I think you said healing is how do we as a community integrate people who have experienced trauma into our spaces? I think if you think back to Freud, it's plucking people out and then he reintroduced trauma and abuse them in the process. But somehow despite those things, he got to be an expert. I mean, so if you wonder how we got to Donald Trump, if you wonder how we get to all these leaders in our country getting to rape, abuse, sexually assault people, and then still maintain their leader position of power, even in our healing realm, we based a lot of our western ideologies on someone that was abusive and we're okay with that. Let's read them, let's learn from them. Okay, so that's one thing.(12:32):And Freud, he did not reintegrate these people back into the community. In fact, their process took them further away. So I often think about that too with therapy. I dunno, I think I told you this, Jenny, that sometimes I feel like people are trying their therapeutic learning out on me just in the community. Wax a boundary on you or I'll tell you no, and I'm just like, wait, what have you been learning? Or what have you been growing in and why aren't we having a conversation in the moment versus holding onto something and creating these spinoffs? But I do think that part of it is that healing hasn't been a way of how to reconnect with your community despite their own imperfections and maybe even places of harm. It's been like, how do you get away from that? And then they're like, give your family. Who's your chosen family? That's so hard. Does that actually work?Jenny (13:42):Yeah, it makes me think of this meme I saw that was so brutal that said, I treat my trauma. Trump treats tariffs, implementing boundaries arbitrarily that hurt everyone. And I've, we've talked a lot about this and I think it is a very white idea to be like, no, that's my boundary. You can't do that. No, that's my boundary. No, that's my boundary. No, that's my boundary. And it's like, are you actually healing or are you just isolating yourself from everything that makes you uncomfortable or triggered or frustrated and hear me? I do think there is a time and a place and a role for boundaries and everything in capitalism. I think it gets bastardized and turned into something that only reproduces whiteness and privilege and isolation and individuation individualism because capitalism needs those things. And so how do we hold the boundaries, have the time and a place and a purpose, and how do we work to grow relation with people that might not feel good all the time?(15:02):And I'm not talking about putting ourselves in positions of harm, but what about positions of discomfort and positions of being frustrated and triggered and parts of the human emotion? Because I agree with what you shared about, I thought healing was like, I'm not going to feel these things, but who decided that and who said those are unhealed emotions? What if those are just part of the human experience and healing is actually growing our capacity to feel all of it, to feel the sadness that you're feeling over the holidays, to feel my frustration when I'm around certain people and to know that that gets to be okay and there gets to be space for that.Danielle (15:49):I mean, it goes without saying, but in our capitalistic system, and in a way it's a benefit for us not to have a sad feeling is you can still go to work and be productive. It's a benefit for us not to have a depressed feeling. It's a benefit for us to be like, well, you hurt me. I can cut you off and I can keep on moving. The goal isn't healing. And my husband often says this about our medical care system. It's just how do we get you back out the door if anybody's ever been to the ER or you've ever been ill or you need something? I think of even recently, I think, I don't dunno if I told you this, but I got a letter in the mail, I've been taking thyroid medicine, which I need, and they're like, no, you can't take that thyroid medicine.(16:34):It's not covered anymore. Well, who decided that according it's Republicans in the big beautiful bill, it's beautiful for them to give permission to insurance companies, not to pay for my thyroid medicine when actually I think of you and I out here in community trying to work with folks and help folks actually participate in our world and live a life maybe they love, that's not perfect, but so how are you going to take away my thyroid medicine as I'm not special though, and you're not special to a system. So I think it is beneficial for healing to be like, how do you do this thing by yourself and get better by yourself, impact the least amount of people as possible with your bad feelings. Bad feelings. Yeah. That's kind of how I think of it when you talked about that.(17:50):So if our job is this and we know we're in this quote system and we imagine more collective community care, I know you're touring the country, you're seeing a lot of different things. What are you seeing when you meet with people? Are you connect with people? Are there any themes or what are you noticing?Jenny (18:09):Yeah, Sean and I joked, not joked before we moved into the van that this was our We Hate America tour and we were very jaded and we had a lot of stereotypes and we were talking at one point with our friend from the south and talking shit about the south and our friend was like, have you even ever been to the south? And we were like, no. And Rick Steves has this phrase that says it's hard to hate up close. And the last two years have really been a disruption in our stereotypes, in our fears, in our assumptions about entire groups of people or entire places that the theme has really felt like people are really trying their best to make the world a more beautiful place all over in a million different ways. And I think there are as many ways to bring life and beauty and resistance into the world as there are bodies on the planet.(19:21):And one of my mentors would say anti-racism about something you do. It's about a consciousness and how you are aware of the world. And that has been tricky for me as a recovering white savior who's like, no, okay, what do I do? How do I do the right thing? And I think I've been exposed to more and more people being aware whether that awareness is the whole globe or the nation or even just their neighbors and what does it mean to go drop off food for their neighbor or different ways in which people are showing up for each other. And sometimes I think that if we're only ever taught, which is often the case in therapy to focus on the trauma or the difficult parts, I think we're missing another part of reality, which is the beauty and the goodness and the somatic experiencing language would be the trauma vortex or your counter vortex.(20:28):And I think we can condition ourselves to look at one or focus on one. And so while I'm hesitant to say everything is love and light, I don't think that's true. And I don't think everything is doom and gloom either. And so I think I'm very grateful to be able to be in places where talking to people from Asheville who experienced the insane flooding last year talking about how they don't even know would just drop off a cooler of spring water every morning for them to flush their toilets and just this person is anonymous. They'll never get praise or gratitude. It was just like, this is my community. This is one thing I can do is bring coolers of water. And so I think it's just being able to hear and tell those stories of community gives us more of an imagination for how we can continue to be there for community.Danielle (21:38):Yeah, I like that. I like that. I like that you had this idea that you were willing to challenge it or this bias or this at the beginning just talking about it that you're willing to challenge.Jenny (21:59):Yeah, we said I think I know two things about every state, and they're probably both wrong. And that's been true. There's so much we don't know until we get out and experience it.Danielle (22:14):I think that's also symptom of, I think even here, I know people, but I don't know them. And often even just going someplace feeling like, oh, I don't have the time for that, or I can't do that, and the barriers, maybe my own exhaustion is true. I have that exhaustion or someone else has that exhaustion. But even the times I've avoided saying hi to someone or the times I've avoided small connections, I just think a lot, and maybe what is tiring is that the therapeutic model has reinforced isolation without having this other. You're talking about the counter vortex when we talk about healing is done in community, healing is done by witnessing, and somehow the assumption is that the therapist can be all of that witnessing and healing and community, and you're paying us and we're there and we're able to offer insight and we've studied and we have a professional job and we're not enough.(23:33):I often find myself in a state of madness and I can't do everything and I can speak to what I've chosen to do recently, but how do I function as a therapist in a system? I want people to feel less anxious. I want to be there, offer insights around depression or pay attention to their body with them. All of these really good, there aren't bad. They're good things. But yet when I walk out my door, if kids are hungry, that burden also affects my clients. So how do I not somehow become involved as an active member of my community as a therapist? And I think that's frustrated me the most about the therapy world. If we see the way the system is hurting people, how is our professional, it seems like almost an elite profession sometimes where we're not dug in the community. It's such a complicated mix. I don't know. What are you hearing me say? Yeah,Jenny (24:40):Yeah. I'm thinking about, I recently read this really beautiful book by Susan Rao called Liberated to the Bone, and Susan is a craniosacral therapist, so different than talk therapy, but in it, there was a chapter talking about just equity in even what we're charging. Very, very, very, very few people can afford 160 plus dollars a week(25:13):Extra just to go to therapy. And so who gets the privileges? Who gets the benefits from the therapy? And yet how do we look at how those privileges in themselves come at the expense of humanity and what is and what privileged bodies miss out on because of the social location of privilege? And yeah, I think it's a symptom that we even need therapy that we don't have communities where we can go to and say, Hey, this thing happened. It was really hard. Can we talk about it? And that is devastating. And so for me it's this both. And I do think we live in a world right now where therapy is necessary and I feel very privileged and grateful to be a therapist. I love my clients, I love the work I get to do. And I say this with many of my new clients.(26:22):My job is to work myself out of a job. And my hope is that eventually, eventually I want you to be able to recreate what we're growing here outside of here. And I do mean that individually. And I also mean that collectively, how do I work towards a world where maybe therapy isn't even necessary? And I don't know that that will ever actually happen, but if that gets to be my orientation, how does that shift how I challenge clients, how I invite them to bring what they're bringing to me to their community? And have you tried talking to that person about that? Have you tried? And so that it doesn't just become only ever this echo chamber, but maybe it's an incubator for a while, and then they get to grow their muscles of confrontation or vulnerability or the things that they've been practicing in therapy. Outside of therapy.Danielle (27:29):And I know I'm always amazed, but I do consistently meet people in different professions and different life circumstances. If you just sit down and listen, they offer a lot of wisdom filled words or just sometimes it feels like a balm to me. To hear how someone is navigating a tough situation may not even relate to mine at all, but just how they're thinking about suffering or how they're thinking about pain or how they're thinking about feeling sad. I don't always agree with it. It's not always something I would do. But also hearing a different way of doing things feels kind of reverberates in me, feels refreshing. So I think those conversations, it's not about finding a total agreement with someone or saying that you have to navigate things the same. I think it is about I finding ways where you can hear someone and hearing someone that's different isn't a threat to the way you want to think about the world.Jenny (28:42):As you say that, it makes me think about art. And something Sean often says is that artists are interpreters and their interpreting a human experience in a way that maybe is very, very specific, but in their specificity it gets to highlight something universal. And I think more and more I see the value in using art to talk about the reality of being unhealed. And that in itself maybe gets to move us closer towards whatever it is that we're moving closer towards or even it just allows us to be more fully present with what is. And maybe part of the issue is this idea that we're going to move towards something rather than how do we just keep practicing being with the current moment more honestly, more authentically?Danielle (29:51):I like my kids' art, honestly. I like to see what they interpret. I have a daughter who makes political art and I love it. I'll be like, what do you think about this? And she'll draw something. I'm like, oh, that's cool. Recently she drew a picture of the nativity, and I didn't really understand it at first, but then she told me it was like glass, broken glass and half of Mary's face was like a Palestinian, and the other half was Mexican, and Joseph was split too. And then the Roman soldiers looking for them were split between ice vests and Roman soldiers. And Herod had the face part of Trump, part of an ancient king. I was like, damn, that's amazing. It was cool. I should send it to you.(30:41):Yeah, I was, whoa. I was like, whoa. And then another picture, she drew had Donald Trump invading the nativity scene and holding a gun, and the man drew was empty and Joseph and Mary were running down the road. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. It is just interesting to me how she can tell the truth through art. Very, if you met this child of mine, she's very calm, very quiet, very kind, laid back, very sweet. But she has all these powerful emotions and interpretations, and I love hearing my kids play music. I love music. I love live music. Yeah. What about you? What kind of art do you enjoy?Jenny (31:28):I love dance. I love movement. I think there's so many things that when I don't have words for just letting my body move or watching other bodies move, it lets me settle something in me that I'm not trying to find words for. I can actually know that there's much more to being human than our little language center of our brain. I really love movies and cinema. I really love a lot of Polish films that are very artistic and speak to power in really beautiful ways. I just recently watched Hamnet in the theater and it was so beautiful. I just sobbed the entire time. Have you seen it?(32:27):I won't say anything about it other than I just find it to be, it was one of the most, what I would say is artistic films I've seen in a long time, and it was really, really moving and touching.Danielle (32:43):Well, what do you recommend for folks? Or what do you think about when you're thinking through the holiday season and all the complications of it?Jenny (32:57):I think my hope is that there gets to be more room for humanity. And at least what I've seen is a lot of times people making it through the holidays usually means I'm not going to get angry. I'm not going to get frustrated. I'm not going to get sad or I'm not going to show those things. And again, I'm like, well, who decided that we shouldn't be showing our emotions to people? And what if actually we get to create a little bit more space for what we're feeling? And that might be really disruptive to systems where we are not supposed to feel or think differently. And so I like this idea of 5%. What if you got to show up 5% more authentically? Maybe you say one sentence you wouldn't have said last year, or maybe you make one facial expression that wouldn't have been okay, or different things like that. How can you let yourself play in a little bit more mobility in your body and in your relational base? That would be my hope for folks. And yeah.Jenny (34:26):What would you want to tell people as they're entering into holiday season? Or maybe they feel like they're already just in the thick of the holidays?Danielle (34:35):I would say that more than likely, 90% of the people you see that you're rubbing shoulders with that aren't talking to you even are probably feeling some kind of way right now. And probably having some kind of emotional experience that's hard to make sense of. And so I know as we talk people, you might be like, I don't have that community. I don't have that. I don't have that. And I think that's true. I think a lot of us don't have it. So I think we talked about last week just taking one inch or one centimeter step towards connecting with someone else can feel really big. But I think it can also hold us back if we feel like, oh, we didn't do the whole thing at once. So I would say if people can tolerate even just one tiny inch towards connection or a tiny bit more honesty, when someone you notice is how you are and you're like, yeah, I feel kind of shitty. Or I had this amazing thing happen and I'm still sad. You don't have to go into details, but I wonder what it's like just to introduce a tiny a sentence, more of honesty into the conversation.Jenny (35:51):I like that. A sentence more of honesty.Danielle (35:54):Yeah. Thanks Jenny. I love being with you.Jenny (35:57):Thank you, friend. Same. Love you. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.
“It's not enough to build a system and then exit stage left when you realize it's broken. The ‘I'm sorry' is not the work — it's only the acknowledgment that work needs to be done. After the apology, you must actually do the repair. And what I see from her is the language of accountability without the actions that would demonstrate it. That's insufficient for real change.” Danielle (01:03):Well, I mean, what's not going on? Just, I don't know. I think the government feels more and more extreme. So that's one thing I feel people are like, why is your practice so busy? I'm like, have you seen the government? It's traumatizing all my clients. Hey Jeremy. Hey Jenny.Jenny (01:33):I'm in Charlottesville, Virginia. So close to Rebecca. We're going to soon.Rebecca (01:48):Yeah, she is. Yeah, she is. And before you pull up in my driveway, I need you to doorbell dish everybody with the Trump flag and then you can come. I'm so readyThat's a good question. That's a good question. I think that, I don't know that I know anybody that's ready to just say out loud. I am not a Trump supporter anymore, but I do know there's a lot of dissonance with individual policies or practices that impact somebody specifically. There's a lot of conversation about either he doesn't know what he's doing or somebody in his cabinet is incompetent in their job and their incompetency is making other people's lives harder and more difficult. Yeah, I think there's a lot of that.(03:08):Would she had my attention for about two minutes in the space where she was saying, okay, I need to rethink some of this. But then as soon as she says she was quitting Congress, I have a problem with that because you are part of the reason why we have the infrastructure that we have. You help build it and it isn't enough to me for you to build it and then say there's something wrong with it and then exit the building. You're not equally responsible for dismantling what you helped to put in place. So after that I was like, yeah, I don't know that there's any authenticity to your current set of objections,I'm not a fan of particularly when you are a person that in your public platform built something that is problematic and then you figure out that it's problematic and then you just leave. That's not sufficient for me, for you to just put on Twitter or Facebook. Oh yeah, sorry. That was a mistake. And then exit stage leftJenny (04:25):And I watched just a portion of an interview she was on recently and she was essentially called in to accountability and you are part of creating this. And she immediately lashed out at the interviewer and was like, you do this too. You're accusing me. And just went straight into defensive white lady mode and I'm just like, oh, you haven't actually learned anything from this. You're just trying to optically still look pure. That's what it seems like to me that she's wanting to do without actually admitting she has been. And she is complicit in the system that she was a really powerful force in building.Rebecca (05:12):Yeah, it reminds me of, remember that story, excuse me, a few years ago about that black guy that was birdwatching in Central Park and this white woman called the cops on him. And I watched a political analyst do some analysis of that whole engagement. And one of the things that he said, and I hate, I don't know the person name, whoever you are, if you said this and you hear this, I'm giving you credit for having said it, but one of the things that he was talking about is nobody wants you to actually give away your privilege. You actually couldn't if you tried. What I want you to do is learn how to leverage the privilege that you have for something that is good. And I think that example of that bird watching thing was like you could see, if you see the clip, you can see this woman, think about the fact that she has power in this moment and think about what she's going to do with that power.(06:20):And so she picks up her phone and calls the cops, and she's standing in front of this black guy lying, saying like, I'm in fear for my life. And as if they're doing anything except standing several feet apart, he is not yelling at you. He hasn't taken a step towards you, he doesn't have a weapon, any of that. And so you can see her figure out what her privilege looks like and feels like and sounds like in that moment. And you can see her use it to her own advantage. And so I've never forgotten that analysis of we're not trying to take that from you. We couldn't if we tried, we're not asking you to surrender it because you, if you tried, if you are in a place of privilege in a system, you can't actually give it up because you're not the person that granted it to yourself. The system gave it to you. We just want you to learn how to leverage it. So I would love to see Marjorie Taylor Greene actually leverage the platform that she has to do something good with it. And just exiting stays left is not helpful.Danielle (07:33):And to that point, even at that though, I've been struck by even she seems to have more, there's on the continuum of moral awareness, she seems to have inch her way in one direction, but I'm always flabbergasted by people close to me that can't even get there. They can't even move a millimeter. To me, it's wild.Well, I think about it. If I become aware of a certain part of my ignorance and I realize that in my ignorance I've been harming someone or something, I believe we all function on some kind of continuum. It's not that I don't think we all wake up and know right and wrong all the time. I think there's a lot of nuance to the wrongs we do to people, honestly. And some things feel really obvious to me, and I've observed that they don't feel obvious to other people. And if you're in any kind of human relationship, sometimes what you feel is someone feels as obvious to them, you're stepping all over them.(08:59):And I'm not talking about just hurting someone's feelings. I'm talking about, yeah, maybe you hurt their feelings, but maybe you violated them in that ignorance or I am talking about violations. So it seems to me that when Marjorie Taylor Green got on CN and said, I've been a part of this system kind of like Rebecca you're talking about. And I realized that ignoring chomp hyping up this rhetoric, it gets people out there that I can't see highly activated. And there's a group of those people that want to go to concrete action and inflict physical pain based on what's being said on another human being. And we see that, right? So whatever you got Charlie Kirk's murderer, you got assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King all throughout history we've seen these, the rhetoric and the violence turns into these physical actions. And so it seems to me like she had some awareness of what her contributing to that, along with the good old orange guy was doing contributes to violence. It seems to me like she inched in that direction.Rebecca (10:27):Yeah, like I said, I think you're right in that inching, she had my attention. And so then I'm waiting for her to actually do something substantive more than just the acknowledgement that I have been in error. And and I think part of that is that I think we have a way of thinking that the acknowledgement or the, I'm sorry, is the work, and it is not the, I'm sorry, is the acknowledgement that work needs to be done. So after you say, I'm sorry, now let's go do the work.Danielle (11:10):I mean our own therapeutic thing that we all went through that we have in common didn't have a concept for repair. So people are coming to therapy looking for a way to understand. And what I like to say is there's a theory of something, but there's no practical application of it that makes your theory useless in some sense to me or your theology, even if your ology has a theology of X, Y, Z, but you can't actually apply that. What is the use of it?Jenny (11:43):And I think that's best case scenario, and I think I'm a more cynical person than you are Danielle, but I see what's happening with Taylor Green and I'm like, this actually feels like when a very toxic, dangerous man goes to therapy and learns the therapy language and then is like it's my boundaries that you can't wear that dress. And it's like, no, no, that's not what we're doing. It's just it's my boundary that when there isn't that actual sense of, okay, I'm going to be a part of the work, to me it actually somehow feels potentially more dangerous because it's like I'm using the language and the optics of what will keep me innocent right now without actually putting any skin in the game.(12:51):Yeah, I would say it's an enactment of white womanhood. I would say it's intentional, but probably not fully conscious that it is her body moving in the way that she's been racially and gendered(13:07):Tradition to move. That goes in some ways maybe I can see that I've enacted harm, but I'm actually going to replicate the same thing in stepping into now a new position of performing white womanhood and saying the right things and doing the right things. But then the second an interviewee calls me out into accountability, I'm going to go into potentially white psychosis moment because I don't actually know how to metabolize the ways in which I am still complicit in the system. And to me, I think that's the impossibility of how do we work through the ways that these systems live in our bodies that isn't clean. It isn't pure, but I think the simplicity of I was blind now I see. I am very skeptical of,Rebecca (14:03):Yeah, I think it's interesting the notion that, and I'm going to misquote you so then you fix it. But something of like, I don't actually know how to metabolize these things and work them through. I only know this kind of performative space where I say what I'm expected to say.Jenny (14:33):Yeah, I think I see it as a both, and I don't totally disagree with the fact of there's not something you can do to get rid of your privilege. And I do think that we have examples of, oh goodness, I wish I could remember her name. Viola Davis. No, she was a white woman who drove, I was just at the African-American History Museum yesterday and was reminded of her face, but it's like Viola ela, I want to say she's a white woman from Detroit who drove down to the south during the bus boycotts to carpool black folks, and she was shot in the head and killed in her car because she stepped out of the bounds of performing white womanhood. And I do think that white bodies know at a certain level we can maintain our privilege and there is a real threat and a real cost to actually doing what needs to be done to not that we totally can abdicate our privilege. I think it is there, and I do think there are ways of stepping out of the bondage of our racial and gendered positions that then come with a very real threat.Rebecca (16:03):Yes. But I think I would say that this person that you're referring to, and again, I feel some kind of way about the fact that we can't name her name accurately. And there's probably something to that, right? She's not the only one. She's not the first one. She's not the last one who stepped outside of the bounds of what was expected of her on behalf of the Civil Rights Movement, on behalf of justice. And those are stories that we don't know and faces and names we cannot, that don't roll off the tip of our tongue like a Rosa Parks or a Medgar Evers or a Merley Evers or whoever. So that being said, I would say that her driving down to the South, that she had a car that she could drive, that she had the resources to do that is a leveraging of some of her privilege in a very real way, a very substantive way. And so I do think that I hear what you're saying that she gave up something of her privilege to do that, and she did so with a threat that for her was realizing a very violent way. And I would also say she leveraged what privilege she had in a way that for her felt like I want to offer something of the privilege that I have and the power that I have on behalf of someone who doesn't have it.(17:44):It kind of reminds me this question of is the apology enough or is the acknowledgement enough? It reminds me of what we did in the eighties and nineties around the racial reconciliation movement and the Promise Keepers thing and all those big conferences where the notion that the work of reconciliation was to stand on the stage and say, I realize I'm white and you're black, and I'm sorry. And we really thought that that was the work and that was sufficient to clear everything that needed to be cleared, and that was enough to allow people to move forward in proximity and connection to each other. And I think some of what we're living through 40, 45 years later is because that was not enough.(18:53):It barely scratched the surface to the extent that you can say that Donald Trump is not the problem. He is a symptom of the problem. To the extent that you could say that his success is about him stoking the fires that lie just beneath the surface in the realization that what happened with reconciliation in the nineties was not actually repair, it was not actually reconciliation. It was, I think what you're saying, Jenny, the sort of performative space where I'm speaking the language of repair and reconciliation, but I haven't actually done the work or paid the cost that is there in order to be reconciled.Danielle (19:40):That's in my line though. That's the continuum of moral awareness. You arrive to a spot, you address it to a certain point. And in that realm of awareness, what we've been told we can manage to think about, which is also goes back to Jenny's point of what the system has said. It's almost like under our system we have to push the system. It's so slow. And as we push the system out and we gain more awareness, then I think we realize we're not okay. I mean, clearly Latinos are not okay. They're a freaking mess. I think Mother Fers, half of us voted for Trump. The men, the women are pissed. You have some people that are like, you have to stay quiet right now, go hide. Other people are like, you got to be in the streets. It's a clear mess. But I don't necessarily think that's bad because we need to have, as a large group of people, a push of our own moral awareness.(20:52):What did we do that hurt ourselves? What were we willing to put up with to recolonize ourselves to agree to it, to agree to the fact that you could recolonize yourself. So I mean, just as a people group, if you can lump us all in together, and then the fact that he's going after countries of origin, destabilizing Honduras telling Mexico to release water, there is no water to release into Texas and California. There isn't the water to do it, but he can rant and rave or flying drones over Venezuela or shooting down all these ships. How far have we allowed ourselves in the system you're describing Rebecca, to actually say our moral awareness was actually very low. I would say that for my people group, very, very low, at least my experience in the states,Rebecca (21:53):I think, and this is a working theory of mine, I think like what you're talking about, Danielle, specifically in Latino cultures, my question has been when I look at that, what I see as someone who's not part of Latino culture is that the invitation from whiteness to Latino cultures is to be complicit in their own erasure in order to have access to America. So you have to voluntarily drop your language, drop your accent, change your name, whatever that long list is. And I think when whiteness shows up in a culture in that way where the request or the demand is that you join in your own eraser, I think it leads to a certain kind of moral ignorance, if you will.(23:10):And I say that as somebody coming from a black American experience where I think the demand from whiteness was actually different. We weren't actually asked to participate in our own eraser. We were simply told that there's no version of your existence where you will have access to what whiteness offers to the extent that a drop is a drop is a drop. And by that I mean you could be one 16th black and be enslaved in the United States, whereas, so I think I have lots of questions and curiosities around that, about how whiteness shows up in a particular culture, what does it demand or require, and then what's the trajectory that it puts that culture on? And I'm not suggesting that we don't have ways of self-sabotage in black America. Of course we do. I just think our ways of self-sabotage are nuanced or different from what you're talking about because the way that whiteness has showed up in our culture has required something different of us. And so our sabotage shows up in a different way.(24:40):To me. I don't know. I still don't know what to do with the 20% of black men that voted for Trump. I haven't figured that one out yet. Perhaps I don't have enough moral awareness about that space. But when I look at what happened in Latino culture, at least my theory as someone from the outside looking in is like there's always been this demand or this temptation that you buy the narrative that if you assimilate, then you can have access to power. And so I get it. It's not that far of a leap from that to course I'll vote for you because if I vote for you, then you'll take care of us. You'll be good and kind and generous to me and mine. I get that that's not the deal that was made with black Americans. And so we do something different. Yeah, I don't know. So I'm open to thoughts, rebuttals, rebukes,Jenny (25:54):My mind is going to someone I quote often, Rosa Luxembourg, who was a democratic socialist revolutionary who was assassinated over a hundred years ago, and she wrote a book called Reform or Revolution arguing that the more capitalism is a system built on collapse because every time the system collapse, those who are at the top get to sweep the monopoly board and collect more houses, more land, more people. And so her argument was actually against things like unions and reforms to capitalism because it would only prolong the collapse, which would make the collapse that much more devastating. And her argument was, we actually have to have a revolution because that's the only way we're going to be able to redo this system. And I think that for the folks that I knew that voted for Trump, in my opinion, against their own wellness and what it would bring, it was the sense of, well, hopefully he'll help the economy.(27:09):And it was this idea that he was just running on and telling people he was going to fix the economy. And that's a very real thing for a lot of people that are really struggling. And I think it's easier for us to imagine this paternalistic force that's going to come in and make capitalism better. And yet I think capitalism will only continue to get worse on purpose. If we look at literally yesterday we were at the Department of Environmental Protections and we saw that there was black bags over it and the building was empty. And the things that are happening to our country that the richest of the ridge don't care that people's water and food and land is going to be poisoned in exponential rates because they will not be affected. And until we can get, I think the mass amount of people that are disproportionately impacted to recognize this system will never work for us, I don't know. I don't know what it will take. I know we've used this word coalition. What will it take for us to have a coalition strong enough to actually bring about the type of revolution that would be necessary? IRebecca (28:33):Think it's in part in something that you said, Jenny, the premise that if this doesn't affect me, then I don't have any skin in this game and I don't really care. I think that is what will have to change. I think we have to come to a sense of if it is not well with the person sitting next to me, then it isn't well with me because as long as we have this mindset that if it doesn't directly affect me that it doesn't matter, then I think we're always sort of crabs in a barrel. And so maybe that's idealistic. Maybe that sounds a little pollyannaish, but I do think we have to come to this sense of, and this maybe goes along with what Danielle was saying about the continuum of moral awareness. Can I do the work of becoming aware of people whose existence and life is different than mine? And can that awareness come from this place of compassion and care for things that are harmful and hurtful and difficult and painful for them, even if it's not that way? For me, I think if we can get there with this sense of we rise and fall together, then maybe we have a shot at doing something better.(30:14):I think I just heard on the news the other day that I think it used to be a policy that on MLK Day, certain federal parks and things were free admission, and I think the president signed an executive order that's no longer true, but you could go free if you go on Trump's birthday. The invitation and the demand that is there to care only about yourself and be utterly dismissive of anyone and everyone else is sickening.Jenny (30:51):And it's one of the things that just makes me go insane around Christian nationalism and the rhetoric that people are living biblically just because they don't want gay marriage. But then we'll say literally, I'm just voting for my bank account, or I'm voting so that my taxes don't go to feed people. And I had someone say that to me and they're like, do you really want to vote for your taxes to feed people? I said, absolutely. I would much rather my tax money go to feed people than to go to bombs for other countries. I would do that any day. And as a Christian, should you not vote for the least of these, should you not vote for the people that are going to be most affected? And that dissonance that's there is so crazy making to me because it's really the antithesis of, I think the message of Jesus that's like whatever you do to the least of these, you are doing to me. And instead it's somehow flipped where it's like, I just need to get mine. And that's biblical,Rebecca (31:58):Which I think I agree wholeheartedly as somebody who identifies as a Christian who seeks to live my life as someone that follows the tenets of scripture. I think part of that problem is the introduction of this idea that there are hierarchies to sin or hierarchies to sort of biblical priorities. And so this notion that somehow the question of abortion or gay rights, transgendered rights is somehow more offensive to scripture than not taking care of the least of these, the notion that there's such a thing as a hierarchy there that would give me permission to value one over the other in a way that is completely dismissive of everything except the one or two things that I have deemed the most important is deeply problematic to me.Danielle (33:12):I think just coming back to this concept of I do think there was a sense among the larger community, especially among Latino men, Hispanic men, that range of people that there's high percentage join the military, high percentage have tried to engage in law enforcement and a sense of, well, that made me belong or that gave my family an inn. Or for instance, my grandfather served in World War II and the Korean War and the other side of my family, the German side, were conscientious objectors. They didn't want to fight the Nazis, but then this side worked so hard to assimilate lost language, didn't teach my mom's generation the language. And then we're reintroducing all of that in our generation. And what I noticed is there was a lot of buy-in of we got it, we made it, we made it. And so I think when homeboy was like, Hey, I'm going to do this. They're like, not to me,To me, not to me. It's not going to happen to me. I want my taxes lowered. And the thing is, it is happening to us now. It was always going to, and I think those of us that spoke out or there was a loss of the memory of the old school guys that were advocating for justice. There was a loss there, but I think it's come back with fury and a lot of communities and they're like, oh, crap, this is true. We're not in, you see the videos, people are screaming, I'm an American citizen. They're like, we don't care. Let me just break your arm. Let me run over your legs. Let me take, you're a US service member with a naval id. That's not real. Just pure absurdity is insane. And I think he said he was going to do it, he's doing it. And then a lot of people in our community were speaking out and saying, this is going to happen. And people were like, no, no, no, no, no. Well, guess what?Rebecca (35:37):Right? Which goes back to Martin Luther King's words about injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. The notion that if you're willing to take rights and opportunities and privileges from one, you are willing to take them from all. And so again, back to what Jenny said earlier, this notion that we rise our fall together, and as long as we have this mindset that I can get mine, and it doesn't matter if you don't get yours, there will always be a vulnerability there. And what you're saying is interesting to me, Danielle, talking about the military service in Latino communities or other whatever it is that we believed was the ticket in. And I don't think it's an accident or a coincidence that just around the time that black women are named the most educated and the fastest rising group for graduate and doctoral degrees, you see the dismantling of affirmative action by the Supreme Court.(36:49):You see now, the latest thing is that the Department of Education has come out and declassified a list of degrees as professional degrees. And overwhelmingly the degrees that are named on that list that are no longer considered professional are ones that are inhabited primarily by women and people of color. And I don't think that that is a coincidence, nor do I think it's a coincidence that in the mass firings of the federal government, 300,000 black women lost their jobs. And a lot of that is because in the nineties when we were graduated from college and getting our degrees, corporate America was not a welcome place for people of color, for black people, for black women. So we went into the government sector because that was the place where there was a bit more of a playing field that would allow you to succeed. And I don't think it is a coincidence that the dismantling intentionally of the on-ramps that we thought were there, that would give us a sense of belonging. Like you're in now, right? You have arrived, so to speak. And I am only naming the ones that I see from my vantage point. I hear you naming some things that you see from your vantage point, right? I'm sure, Jenny, you have thoughts about how those things have impacted white women.Jenny (38:20):Yeah, yeah. And I'm thinking about, we also went yesterday to the Native American Museum and I learned, I did not realize this, that there was something called, I want to say, the Pocahontas exception. And if a native person claimed up to one 14th of Pocahontas, DNA, they were then deemed white. What? And it just flabbergasted to me, and it was so evident just this, I was thinking about that when you were talking, Danielle, just like this moving target and this false promise of if you just do enough, if you just, you'll get two. But it's always a lie. It's always been a lie from literally the very first settlers in Jamestown. It has been a lie,Rebecca (39:27):Which is why it's sort of narcissistic and its sort of energy and movement, right? Because narcissism always moves the goalpost. It always changes the roles of the game to advantage the narcissist. And whiteness is good for that. This is where the goalpost is. You step up and meet it, and whiteness moves the goalpost.Danielle (40:00):I think it's funny that Texas redistricted based on how Latinos thought pre pre-migration crackdown, and they did it in Miami and Miami, Miami's democratic mayor won in a landslide just flipped. And I think they're like, oh, shit, what are we going to do? I think it's also interesting. I didn't realize that Steven Miller, who's the architect of this crap, did you know his wife is brownHell. That's creepy shit,Rebecca (40:41):Right? I mean headset. No, no. Vance is married to a brown woman. I'm sure in Trump's mind. Melania is from some Norwegian country, but she's an immigrant. She's not a US citizen. And the Supreme Court just granted cert on the birthright citizenship case, which means we're in trouble.(41:12):Well, I'm worried about everybody because once you start messing with that definition of citizenship, they can massage it any kind of way they want to. And so I don't think anybody's safe. I really don't. I think the low hanging fruit to speak, and I apologize for that language, is going to be people who are deemed undocumented, but they're not going to stop there. They're coming for everybody and anybody they can find any reason whatsoever to decide that you're not, if being born on US soil is not sufficient, then the sky's the limit. And just like they did at the turn of the century when they decided who was white and who wasn't and therefore who could vote and who could own property or who couldn't, we're going to watch the total and reimagining of who has access to power.Danielle (42:14):I just am worried because when you go back and you read stories about the Nazis or you read about genocide and other places in the world, you get inklings or World War I or even more ancient wars, you see these leads up in these telltale signs or you see a lead up to a complete ethnic cleansing, which is what it feels like we're gearing up for.I mean, and now with the requirement to come into the United States, even as a tourist, when you enter the border, you have to give access to five years of your social media history. I don't know. I think some people think, oh, you're futurizing too much. You're catastrophizing too much. But I'm like, wait a minute. That's why we studied history, so we didn't do this again. Right?Jenny (43:13):Yeah. I saw this really moving interview with this man who was 74 years old protesting outside of an nice facility, and they were talking to him and one of the things he said was like, Trump knows immigrants are not an issue. He's not concerned about that at all. He is using this most vulnerable population to desensitize us to masked men, stealing people off the streets.Rebecca (43:46):I agree. I agree. Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think it's desensitizing us. And I don't actually think that that is Trump. I don't know that he is cunning enough to get that whoever's masterminding, project 2025 and all that, you can ask the question in some ways, was Hitler actually antisemitic or did he just utilize the language of antisemitism to mask what he was really doing? And I don't mean that to sort of sound flippant or deny what happened in the Holocaust. I'm suggesting that same thing. In some ways it's like because America is vulnerable to racialized language and because racialized rhetoric moves masses of people, there's a sense in which, let me use that. So you won't be paying attention to the fact that I just stole billions of dollars out of the US economy so that you won't notice the massive redistribution of wealth and the shutting off of avenues to upward social mobility.(45:12):And the masses will follow you because they think it's about race, when in actuality it's not. Because if they're successful in undoing birthright citizenship, you can come after anybody you want because all of our citizenship is based on the fact that we were born on US soil. I don't care what color you are, I do not care what lineage you have. Every person in this country or every person that claims to be a US citizen, it's largely based on the fact that you were born on US soil. And it's easy to say, oh, we're only talking about the immigrants. But so far since he took office, we've worked our way through various Latin cultures, Somali people, he's gone after Asian people. I mean, so if you go after birthright citizenship and you tell everyone, we're only talking about people from brown countries, no, he's not, and it isn't going to matter. They will find some arbitrary line to decide you have power to vote to own property. And they will decide, and this is not new in US history. They took whole businesses, land property, they've seized property and wealth from so many different cultures in US history during Japanese internment during the Tulsa massacre. And those are only the couple that I could name. I'm sure Jenny and Danielle, you guys could name several, right? So it's coming and it's coming for everybody.Jenny (47:17):So what are you guys doing to, I know that you're both doing a lot to resist, and we talk a lot about that. What are you doing to care for yourself in the resistance knowing that things will get worse and this is going to be a long battle? What does helping take care of yourself look like in that for you?Danielle (47:55):I dunno, I thought about this a lot actually, because I got a notification from my health insurance that they're no longer covering thyroid medication that I take. So I have to go back to my doctor and find an alternative brand, hopefully one they would cover or provide more blood work to prove that that thyroid medication is necessary. And if you know anything about thyroids, it doesn't get better. You just take that medicine to balance yourself. So for me, my commitment and part of me would just want to let that go whenever it runs out at the end of December. But for me, one way I'm trying to take care of myself is one, stocking up on it, and two, I've made an appointment to go see my doctor. So I think just trying to do regular things because I could feel myself say, you know what?(48:53):Just screw it. I could live with this. I know I can't. I know I can technically maybe live, but it will cause a lot of trouble for me. So I think there's going to be probably not just for me, but for a lot of people, like invitations as care changes, like actual healthcare or whatever. And sometimes those decisions financially will dictate what we can do for ourselves, but I think as much as I can, I want to pursue staying healthy. And it's not just that just eating and exercising. So that's one way I'm thinking about it.Rebecca (49:37):I think I'm still in the phase of really curating my access to information and data. There's so much that happens every day and I cannot take it all in. And so I still largely don't watch the news. I may scan a headline once every couple days just to kind of get the general gist of what is happening because I can't, I just cannot take all of that in. Yeah, it will be way too overwhelming, I think. So that still has been a place of that feels like care. And I also think trying to move a little bit more, get a little bit of, and I actually wrote a blog post this month about chocolate because when I grew up in California seas, chocolate was a whole thing, and you cannot get it on the east coast. And so I actually ordered myself a box of seas chocolate, and I'm waiting for it to arrive at my house costs way too much money. But for me, that piece of chocolate represents something that makes me smile about my childhood. And plus, who doesn't think chocolate is care? And if you live a life where chocolate does not care, I humbly implore you to change your definition of care. But yeah, so I mean it is something small, but these days, small things that feel like there's something to smile about or actually big things.Jenny (51:30):I have been trying to allow myself to take dance classes. It's my therapy and it just helps me. A lot of the things that we're talking about, I don't have words for, I can only express through movement now. And so being able to be in a space where my body is held and I don't have to think about how to move my body and I can just have someone be like, put your hand here. That has been really supportive for me. And just feeling my body move with other bodies has been really supportive for me.Rebecca (52:17):Yeah. The other thing I would just add is that we started this conversation talking about Marjorie Taylor Green and the ways in which I feel like her response is insufficient, but there is a part of me that feels like it is a response, it however small it is, an acknowledgement that something isn't right. And I do think you're starting to see a little bit of that seep through. And I saw an interview recently where someone suggested it's going to take more than just Trump out of office to actually repair what has been broken over the last several years. I think that's true. So I want to say that putting a little bit of weight in the cracks in the surface feels a little bit like care to me, but it still feels risky. I don't know. I'm hopeful that something good will come of the cracks that are starting to surface the people that are starting to say, actually, this isn't what I meant when I voted. This isn't what I wanted when I voted. That cities like Miami are electing democratic mayors for the first time in 30 years, but I feel that it's a little bit risky. I am a little nervous about how far it will go and what will that mean. But I think that I can feel the beginnings of a seedling of hope that maybe this won't be as bad as maybe we'll stop it before we go off the edge of a cliff. We'll see.Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health ResourcesIf you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.Kitsap County / Local ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call LinePhone: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach TeamEmergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS)Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now”Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the PeninsulasPhone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-ResourcesLocal crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap CountyWebsite: https://namikitsap.org/Peer support groups, education, and resources for individuals and families affected by mental illness.Statewide & National Crisis ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They Offer988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988)Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.Washington Recovery Help Line1‑866‑789‑1511Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesHelp for mental health, substance use, and problem gambling; 24/7 statewide support.WA Warm Line877‑500‑9276Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.Native & Strong Crisis LifelineDial 988 then press 4Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesCulturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.Additional Helpful Tools & Tips• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.Rebecca A. Wheeler Walston, J.D., Master of Arts in CounselingEmail: asolidfoundationcoaching@gmail.comPhone: +1.5104686137Website: Rebuildingmyfoundation.comI have been doing story work for nearly a decade. I earned a Master of Arts in Counseling from Reformed Theological Seminary and trained in story work at The Allender Center at The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. I have served as a story facilitator and trainer at both The Allender Center and the Art of Living Counseling Center. I currently see clients for one-on-one story coaching and work as a speaker and facilitator with Hope & Anchor, an initiative of The Impact Movement, Inc., bringing the power of story work to college students.By all accounts, I should not be the person that I am today. I should not have survived the difficulties and the struggles that I have faced. At best, I should be beaten down by life‘s struggles, perhaps bitter. I should have given in and given up long ago. But I was invited to do the good work of (re)building a solid foundation. More than once in my life, I have witnessed God send someone my way at just the right moment to help me understand my own story, and to find the strength to step away from the seemingly inevitable ending of living life in defeat. More than once I have been invited and challenged to find the resilience that lies within me to overcome the difficult moment. To trust in the goodness and the power of a kind gesture. What follows is a snapshot of a pivotal invitation to trust the kindness of another in my own story. May it invite you to receive to the pivotal invitation of kindness in your own story. Listen with me… Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.
Danielle (00:02):Hey, Jenny, you and I usually hop on here and you're like, what's happening today? Is there a guest today? Isn't that what you told me at the beginning?And then I sent you this Instagram reel that was talking about, I feel like I've had this, my own therapeutic journey of landing with someone that was very unhelpful, going to someone that I thought was more helpful. And then coming out of that and doing some somatic work and different kind of therapeutic tools, but all in the effort for me at least, it's been like, I want to feel better. I want my body to have less pain. I want to have less PTSD. I want to have a richer life, stay present with my kids and my family. So those are the places pursuit of healing came from for me. What about you? Why did you enter therapy?Jenny (00:53):I entered therapy because of chronic state of dissociation and not feeling real, coupled with pretty incessant intrusive thoughts, kind of OCD tendencies and just fixating and paranoid about so many things that I knew even before I did therapy. I needed therapy. And I came from a world where therapy wasn't really considered very Christian. It was like, you should just pray and if you pray, God will take it away. So I actually remember I went to the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology, partly because I knew it was a requirement to get therapy. And so for the first three years I was like, yeah, yeah, my school requires me to go to therapy. And then even after I graduated, I was like, well, I'm just staying in therapy to talk about what's coming up for my clients. And then it was probably five years, six years into therapy when I was finally like, no, I've gone through some really tough things and I just actually need a space to talk about it and process it. And so trying to develop a healthier relationship with my own body and figuring out how I wanted to move with integrity through the world is a big part of my healing journey.Danielle (02:23):I remember when I went to therapy as a kid and well, it was a psychologist and him just kind of asking really direct questions and because they were so direct and pointed, just me just saying like, nah, never happened, never did that, never felt that way, et cetera, et cetera. So I feel like as I've progressed through life, I've had even a better understanding of what's healing for me, what is love life like my imagination for what things could be. But also I think I was very trusting and taught to trust authority figures, even though at the same time my own trauma kept me very distrusting, if that makes sense. So my first recommendations when I went, I was skeptical, but I was also very hopeful. This is going to help.Jenny (03:13):Yeah, totally. Yep. Yeah. And sometimes it's hard for me to know what is my homeschool brain and what is just my brain, because I always think everyone else knows more than me about pretty much everything. And so then I will do crazy amount of research about something and then Sean will be like, yeah, most people don't even know that much about that subject. And I'm like, dang it, I wasted so much effort again. But I think especially in the therapy world, when I first started therapy, and I've seen different therapists over the years, some better experiences than others, and I think I often had that same dissonance where I was like, I think more than me, but I don't want you to know more than me. And so I would feel like this wrestling of you don't know me actually. And so it created a lot of tension in my earlier days of therapy, I think.Danielle (04:16):Yeah, I didn't know too with my faith background how therapy and my faith or theological beliefs might impact therapy. So along the lines of stereotypes for race or stereotypes for gender or what do you do? I am a spiritual person, so what do I do with the thought of I do believe in angels and spiritual beings and evil and good in the world, and what do I do? How does that mix into therapy? And I grew up evangelical. And so there was always this story, I don't know if you watched Heaven's Gates, Hells Flames at your church Ever? No. But it was this play that they came and they did, and you were supposed to invite your friends. And the story was some people came and at the end of their life, they had this choice to choose Jesus or not. And the story of some people choosing Jesus and making it into heaven and some people not choosing Jesus and being sent to hell, and then there was these pictures of these demons and the devil and stuff. So I had a lot of fear around how evil spirits were even just interacting with us on a daily basis.Jenny (05:35):Yeah, I grew up evangelical, but not in a Pentecostal charismatic world at all. And so in my family, things like spiritual warfare or things like that were not often talked about in my faith tradition in my family. But I grew up in Colorado Springs, and so by the time I was in sixth, seventh grade, maybe seventh or eighth grade, I was spending a lot of time at Ted Haggard's New Life Church, which was this huge mega, very charismatic church. And every year they would do this play called The Thorn, and it would have these terrifying hell scenes. It was very common for people to throw up in the audience. They were so freaked out and they'd have demons repelling down from the ceiling. And so I had a lot of fear earlier than that. I always had a fear of hell. I remember on my probably 10th or 11th birthday, I was at Chuck E Cheese and my birthday Wish was that I could live to be a thousand because I thought then I would be good enough to not go to hell.(06:52):I was always so afraid that I would just make the simplest mistake and then I would end up in hell. And even when I went to bed at night, I would tell my parents goodnight and they'd say, see you tomorrow. And I wouldn't say it because I thought as a 9-year-old, what if I die and I don't see them tomorrow? Then the last thing I said was a lie, and then I'm going to go to hell. And so it was always policing everything I did or said to try to avoid this scary, like a fire that I thought awaited me.Yeah, yeah. I mean, I am currently in New York right now, and I remember seeing nine 11 happen on the news, and it was the same year I had watched Left Behind on that same TV with my family. So as I was watching it, my very first thought was, well, these planes ran into these buildings because the pilots were raptured and I was left behind.Danielle (08:09):And so I know we were like, we get to grad school, you're studying therapy. It's mixed with psychology. I remember some people saying to me, Hey, you're going to lose your faith. And I was like, what does that mean? I'm like 40, do you assume because I learned something about my brain that's going to alter my faith. So even then I felt the flavor of that, but at the time I was with seeing a Christian therapist, a therapist that was a Christian and engaging in therapy through that lens. And I think I was grateful for that at the time, but also there were things that just didn't feel right to me or fell off or racially motivated, and I didn't know what to say because when I brought them into the session, that became part of the work as my resistance or my UNC cooperation in therapy. So that was hard for me. I don't know if you noticed similar things in your own therapy journey.Jenny (09:06):I feel sick as you say, that I can feel my stomach clenching and yeah, I think for there to be a sense of this is how I think, and therefore if you as the client don't agree, that's your resistance(09:27):Is itself whiteness being enacted because it's this, I think about Tema, Koon's, white supremacy, cultural norms, and one of them is objectivity and the belief that there is this one capital T objective truth, and it just so happens that white bodies have it apparently. And so then if you differ with that than there is something you aren't seeing, rather than how do I stay in relation to you knowing that we might see this in a very different way and how do we practice being together or not being together because of how our experiences in our worldviews differ? But I can honor that and honor you as a sovereign being to choose your own journey and your self-actualization on that journey.Danielle(10:22):So what are you saying is that a lot of our therapeutic lens, even though maybe it's not Christian, has been developed in this, I think you used the word before we got on here like dominion or capital T. I do believe there is truth, but almost a truth that overrides any experience you might have. How would you describe that? Yeah. Well,Jenny (10:49):When I think about a specific type of saying that things are demonic or they're spiritual, a lot of that language comes from the very charismatic movement of dominion and it uses a lot of spiritual warfare language to justify dominion. And it's saying there's a stronghold of Buddhism in Thailand and that's why we have to go and bring Jesus. And what that means is bring white capitalistic Jesus. And so I think that that plays out on mass scales. And a big part of dominion is that the idea that there's seven spheres of society, it's like family culture, I don't remember all of them education, and the idea is that Christians should be leaders in each those seven spheres of society. And so a lot of the language in that is that there are demons or demonic strongholds. And a lot of that language I think is also racialized because a lot of it is colorism. We are going into this very dark place and the association with darkness always seems to coincide with melanin, You don't often hear that language as much when you're talking about white communities.Danielle (12:29):Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, it's interesting when you talk about nuts and bolts and you're in therapy, then it becomes almost to me, if a trauma happens to you and let's say then the theory is that alongside of that trauma and evil entity or a spirit comes in and places itself in that weak spot, then it feels like we're placing the victim as sharing the blame for what happened to them or how they're impacted by that trauma. I'm not sure if I'm saying it right, but I dunno, maybe you can say it better. (13:25):Well, I think that it's a way of making even the case of sexual assault, for instance, I've been in scenarios where or heard stories where someone shared a story of sexual assault or sexual violence and then their life has been impacted by that trauma in certain patterned ways and in the patterns of how that's been impacted. The lens that's additionally added to that is saying an evil entity or an evil spirit has taken a stronghold or a footing in their life, or it's related to a generational curse. This happened to your mother or your grandma too. And so therefore to even get free of the trauma that happened to you, you also have to take responsibility for your mom or your grandma or for exiting an evil entity out of your life then to get better. Does that make sense or what are you hearing me say?Jenny (14:27):Well, I think I am hearing it on a few different levels. One, there's not really any justification for that. Even if we were to talk about biblical counseling, there's not a sense of in the Bible, a demon came into you because this thing happened or darkness came into you or whatever problematic language you want to use. Those are actually pretty relatively new constructs and ideas. And it makes me think about how it also feels like whiteness because I think about whiteness as a system that disables agency. And so of course there may be symptoms of trauma that will always be with us. And I really like the framework of thinking of trauma more like diabetes where it's something you learn to moderate, it's something you learn to take care of, but it's probably never going to totally leave you. And I think, sorry, there's loud music playing, but even in that, it's like if I know I have diabetes, I know what I can do. If there's some other entity somewhere in me, whatever that means, that is so disempowering to my own agency and my own choice to be able to say, how do I make meaning out of these symptoms and how do I continue living a meaningful life even if I might have difficulties? It's a very victimizing and victim blaming language is what I'm hearing in that.Danielle (16:15):And it also is this idea that somehow, for instance, I hate the word Christian, but people that have faith in Jesus that somewhere wrapped up in his world and his work and his walk on earth, there's some implication that if you do the right things, your life will be pain-free or you can get to a place where you love your life and the life that you're loving no longer has that same struggle. I find that exactly opposite of what Jesus actually said, but in the moment, of course, when you're engaged in that kind of work, whether it's with a spiritual counselor or another kind of counselor, the idea that you could be pain-free is, I mean, who doesn't want to be? Not a lot of people I know that were just consciously bring it on. I love waking up every day and feeling slightly ungrounded, doesn't everyone, or I like having friends and feeling alone who wakes up and consciously says that, but somehow this idea has gotten mixed in that if we live or make enough money, whether it's inside of therapy or outside of healing, looks like the idea of absence of whether I'm not trying to glorify suffering, but I am saying that to have an ongoing struggle feels very normal and very in step with Jesus rather than out of step.Jenny (17:53):It makes me think of this term I love, and I can't remember who coined it at the moment, but it's the word, and it's the idea that your health and that could kind of be encompassing a lot of different things, relational health, spiritual health, physical health is co-opted by this neoliberal capitalistic idea that you are just this lone island responsible for your health and that your health isn't impacted by colonialism and white supremacy and capitalism and all of these things that are going to be detrimental to the wellness and health of all the different parts of you. And so I think that that's it or hyper spiritualizing it. Not to say there's not a spiritual component, but to say, yes, I've reduced this down to know that this is a stronghold or a demon. I think it abdicates responsibility for the shared relational field and how am I currently contributing and benefiting from those systems that may be harming you or someone else that I'm in relationship with. And so I think about spiritual warfare. Language often is an abdication for holding the tension of that relational field.Danielle (19:18):Yeah, that's really powerful. It reminds me of, I often think of this because I grew up in these wild, charismatic religion spaces, but people getting prayed for and then them miraculously being healed. I remember one person being healed from healed from marijuana and alcohol, and as a kid I was like, wow. So they just left the church and this person had gotten up in front of the entire church and confessed their struggle or their addiction that they said it was and confessed it out loud with their family standing by them and then left a stage. And sometime later I ran into one of their kids and they're like, yeah, dad didn't drink any alcohol again, but he still hit my mom. He still yelled at us, but at church it was this huge success. It was like you didn't have any other alcohol, but was such a narrow view of what healing actually is or capacity they missed. The bigger what I feel like is the important stuff, whatever thatBut that's how I think about it. I think I felt in that type of therapy as I've reflected that it was a problem to be fixed. Whatever I had going on was a problem to be fixed, and my lack of progress or maybe persistent pain sometimes became this symbol that I somehow wasn't engaging in the therapeutic process of showing up, or I somehow have bought in and wanted that pain longterm. And so I think as I've reflected on that viewpoint from therapy, I've had to back out even from my own way of working with clients, I think there are times when we do engage in things and we're choosing, but I do think there's a lot of times when we're not, it's just happening.Jenny (21:29):Yeah, I feel like for me, I was trained in a model that was very aggressive therapy. It was like, you got to go after the hardest part in the story. You have to go dig out the trauma. And it was like this very intense way of being with people. And unfortunately, I caused a lot of harm in that world and have had to do repair with folks will probably have to do more repair with folks in the future. And through somatic experiencing training and learning different nervous system modalities, I've come to believe that it's actually about being receptive and really believing that my client's body is the widest person in the room. And so how do I create a container to just be with and listen and observe and trust that whatever shifts need to happen will come from that and not from whatever I'm trying to project or put into the space.Danielle (22:45):I mean, it's such a wild area of work that it feels now in my job, it feels so profoundly dangerous to bring in spirituality in any sense that says there's an unseen stronghold on you that it takes secret knowledge to get rid of a secret prayer or a specific prayer written down in a certain order or a specific group of people to pray for you, or you have to know, I mean, a part of this frame, I heard there's contracts in heaven that have agreed with whatever spirit might be in you, and you have to break those contracts in order for your therapy to keep moving forward. Now, I think that's so wild. How could I ever bring that to a client in a vulnerable?And so it's just like, where are these ideas coming from? I'm going to take a wild hair of a guest to say some white guy, maybe a white lady. It's probably going to be one or the other. And how has their own psychology and theology formed how they think about that? And if they want to make meaning out of that and that is their thing, great. But I think the problem is whenever we create a dogma around something and then go, and then this is a universal truth that is going to apply to my clients, and if it doesn't apply to my clients, then my clients are doing it wrong. I think that's incredibly harmful.Yeah, I know. I think the audacity and the level of privilege it would be to even bring that up with a client and make that assumption that that could be it. I think it'd be another thing if a client comes and says, Hey, I think this is it, then that's something you can talk about. But to bring it up as a possible reason someone is stuck, that there's demonic in their life, I think, well, I have, I've read recently some studies that actually increases suicidality. It increases self-harming behaviors because it's not the evil spirit, but it's that feeling of I'm powerless. Yeah,Jenny (25:30):Yeah. And I ascribed to that in my early years of therapy and in my own experience I had, I had these very intensive prayer sessions when therapy wasn't cutting it, so I needed to somehow have something even more vigorously digging out whatever it was. And it's kind of this weird both, and some of those experiences were actually very healing for me. But I actually think what was more healing was having attuned kind faces and maybe even hands on me sometimes and these very visceral experiences that my body needed, but then it was ascribed to something ethereal rather than how much power is in ritual and coming together and doing something that we can still acknowledge we are creating this,That we get to put on the meaning that we're making. We don't have to. Yeah, I don't know. I think we can do that. And I think there are gentler ways to do that that still center a sense of agency and less of this kind of paternalistic thinking too, which I think is historical through the field of psychology from Freud onwards, it was this idea that I'm the professional and I know what's best for you. And I think that there's been much work and still as much work to do around decolonizing what healing professions look like. And I find myself honestly more and more skeptical of individual work is this not only, and again, it's of this both, and I think it can be very helpful. And if individual work is all that we're ever doing, how are we then disabling ourselves from stepping into more of those places of our own agency and ability?Danielle (27:48):Man, I feel so many conflicts as you talk. I feel that so much of what we need in therapy is what we don't get from community and friendships, and that if we had people, when we have people and if we have people that can just hold our story for bits at a time, I think often that can really be healing or just as healing is meaning with the therapist. I also feel like getting to talk one-on-one with someone is such a relief at times to just be able to spill everything. And as you know, Jenny, we both have partners that can talk a lot, so having someone else that we can just go to also feels good. And then I think the group setting, I love it when I'm in a trusted place like that, however it looks, and because of so many ethics violations like the ones we're talking about, especially in the spiritual realm, that's one reason I've hung onto my license. But at the same time, I also feel like the license is a hindrance at sometimes that it doesn't allow us to do everything that we could do just as how do you frame groups within that? It just gets more complicated. I'm not saying that's wrong, it's just thoughts I have.Jenny (29:12):Totally. Yeah, and I think it's intentionally complicated. I think that's part of the problem I'm thinking about. I just spent a week with a very, very dear 4-year-old in my life, and Amari, my dog was whining, and the 4-year-old asked Is Amari and Amari just wanted to eat whatever we were eating, and she was tied to the couch so she wouldn't eat a cat. And Sean goes, Amari doesn't think she's okay. And the four-year-old goes, well, if Amari doesn't think she's okay, she's not okay. And it was just like this most precious, empathetic response that was so simple. I was like, yeah, if you don't think you're okay, you're not okay. And just her concern was just being with Amari because she didn't feel okay. And I really think that that's what we need, and yet we live in a world that is so disconnected because we're all grinding just to try to get food and healthcare and water and all of the things that have been commodified. It's really hard to take that time to be in those hospitable environments where those more vulnerable parts of us get to show upDanielle (30:34):And it can't be rushed. Even with good friends sometimes you just can't sit down and just talk about the inner things. Sometimes you need all that warmup time of just having fun, remembering what it's like to be in a space with someone. So I think we underestimate how much contact we actually need with people.Yeah. What are your recommendations then for folks? Say someone's coming out of that therapeutic space or they're wondering about it. What do you tell people?Jenny (31:06):Go to dance class.I do. And I went to a dance class last night, last I cried multiple times. And one of the times the teacher was like, this is $25. This is the cheapest therapy you're ever going to have. And it's very true. And I think it is so therapeutic to be in a space where you can move your body in a way that feels safe and good. And I recognize that shared movement spaces may not feel safe for all bodies. And so that's what I would say from my embodied experience, but I also want to hold that dance spaces are not void of whiteness and all of these other things that we're talking about too. And so I would say find what can feel like a safe enough community for you, because I don't think any community is 100% safe,I think we can hopefully find places of shared interest where we get to bring the parts of us that are alive and passionate. And the more we get to share those, then I think like you're saying, we might have enough space that maybe one day in between classes we start talking about something meaningful or things like that. And so I'm a big fan of people trying to figure out what makes them excited to do what activity makes them excited to do, and is there a way you can invite, maybe it's one, maybe it's two, three people into that. It doesn't have to be this giant group, but how can we practice sharing space and moving through the world in a way that we would want to?Danielle (32:55):Yeah, that's good. I like that. I think for me, while I'm not living in a warm place, I mean, it's not as cold as New York probably, but it's not a warm place Washington state. But when I am in a warm place, I like to float in saltwater. I don't like to do cold plunges to cold for me, but I enjoy that when I feel like in warm salt water, I feel suddenly released and so happy. That's one thing for me, but it's not accessible here. So cooking with my kids, and honestly my regular contact with the same core people at my gym at a class most days of the week, I will go and I arrive 20 minutes early and I'll sit there and people are like, what are you doing? If they don't know me, I'm like, I'm warming up. And they're like, yeah.(33:48):And so now there's a couple other people that are arrive early and they just hang and sit there, and we're all just, I just need to warm up my energy to even be social in a different spot. But once I am, it's not deep convo. Sometimes it is. I showed up, I don't know, last week and cried at class or two weeks ago. So there's the possibility for that. No one judges you in the space that I'm in. So that, for me, that feels good. A little bit of movement and also just being able to sit or be somewhere where I'm with people, but I'm maybe not demanded to say anything. So yeah,Jenny (34:28):It makes me think about, and this may be offensive for some people, so I will give a caveat that this resonates with me. It's not dogma, but I love this podcast called Search for the Slavic Soul, and it is this Polish woman who talks about pre-Christian Slavic religion and tradition. And one of the things that she talks about is that there wasn't a lot of praying, and she's like, in Slavic tradition, you didn't want to bother the gods. The Gods would just tell you, get off your knees and go do something useful. And I'm not against prayer, but I do think in some ways it seems related to what we're talking about, about these hyper spiritualizing things, where it's like, at what point do we actually just get up and go live the life that we want? And it's not going to be void of these symptoms and the difficult things that we have with us, but what if we actually let our emphasis be more on joy and life and pleasure and fulfillment and trust that we will continue metabolizing these things as we do so rather than I have to always focus on the most negative, the most painful, the most traumatic thing ever.(35:47):I think that that's only going to put us more and more in that vortex to use somatic experiencing language rather than how do I grow my counter vortex of pleasure and joy and X, y, Z?Danielle (35:59):Oh yeah, you got all those awards and I know what they are now. Yeah. Yeah. We're wrapping up, but I just wanted to say, if you're listening in, we're not prescribing anything or saying that you can't have a spiritual experience, but we are describing and we are describing instances where it can be harmful or ways that it could be problematic for many, many people. So yeah. Any final thoughts, Jenny? IJenny (36:32):Embrace the mess. Life is messy and it's alright. Buckle up.Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health ResourcesIf you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.Kitsap County / Local ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call LinePhone: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach TeamEmergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS)Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now”Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the PeninsulasPhone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-ResourcesLocal crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap CountyWebsite: https://namikitsap.org/Peer support groups, education, and resources for individuals and families affected by mental illness.Statewide & National Crisis ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They Offer988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988)Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.Washington Recovery Help Line1‑866‑789‑1511Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesHelp for mental health, substance use, and problem gambling; 24/7 statewide support.WA Warm Line877‑500‑9276Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.Native & Strong Crisis LifelineDial 988 then press 4Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesCulturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.Additional Helpful Tools & Tips• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.
Ever have a day where everything goes sideways and your body just won't calm down? In this episode, Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen explore emotional dysregulation: why our nervous systems spiral under stress, especially with a history of trauma, and how we can respond with mercy rather than shame. Through humor, real-life stories, and insights from both neuroscience and Scripture, they show that dysregulation isn't weakness; it's a signal from your body asking for care and compassion. Their conversation also offers practical ways to tend to your body, mind, and soul. Listener Resources: Read: Aundi Kolber's Try Softer and Strong Like Water Read: Resmaa Manakem's My Grandmother's Hands: Racialized Trauma and the Pathway to Mending Our Hearts and Bodies Listen to: Self Care and Practical Grounding Techniques on the Allender Center Podcast Download the free worksheet: Beyond Self-Care: Build Sustainable Practices from the Center for Transforming Engagement at The Seattle School
Brittany Deininger reads her poems "The Seed Collectors," "Sarah's Dream," and "Rebirth Motif."Brittany Deininger is a poet, feminist theologian, and educator. She received an MFA in poetry from Sarah Lawrence College and an MATC from The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. Her work has appeared in On Being, EcoTheo Review, The Ekphrastic Review, Metphrastics, Pensive and elsewhere. She lives in New York.
Seattle spends more than $1.2 billion each year on public education, nearly the same as running the entire city. So why do so few people know where that money goes, or who's actually in charge of it? In this episode of Right in Front of My Face, I sit down with Vivian Song, candidate for Seattle School Board District 5, to talk about how local politics directly shape our schools, and why most of us aren't paying enough attention. I'll be honest: I didn't think I'd ever get this invested in local education policy. But the more I've learned through this podcast, the more I realize how deeply city culture, education, and accountability are intertwined. With a $1.2 billion budget nearly equal to that of Seattle's entire city government, the Seattle Public School system has enormous influence, and yet, shockingly little oversight. Vivian and I dig into the Student Outcomes Focused Governance model, how it's changed school board oversight, and what happens when financial committees disappear. We also talk about what accountability really looks like, how to rebuild public trust, and why marketing might actually be one of the smartest tools for saving public schools. This conversation made me think differently about how education works and how my vote connects to it all. No matter where your kids go to school (or if you have kids at all), this episode is for anyone who cares about how our community's future is being shaped. Topics Covered: Why local elections matter more than you think The $1.2 billion question: who's watching Seattle's school budget? Understanding Student Outcomes Focused Governance How public education decisions affect everyone—even private school families Lessons from Vivian's first term and why she's running again The importance of transparency, community trust, and clear communication How public schools can regain enrollment and rebuild confidence The role of AI and technology in shaping the future of education About the Guest: Vivian Song is a Harvard graduate, finance professional, and former Seattle School Board Director now running for District 5. A parent of four, she's passionate about public education, fiscal accountability, and ensuring equitable opportunities for every student in Seattle. https://www.songforseattleschools.com You can find me on Instagram @rightinfrontofmyface or send me a note at rightinfrontofmyface@gmail.com. If this conversation hit home for you, please share it with a friend and leave a review. It really does help more people find these stories. And as always, don't forget to look around—you never know what's happening right in front of your face. Thank you to my sponsors Cassie and Jeremy Johnson with Windermere Real Estate: https://johnsonandwalker.com/
The Seattle school board nixed plans to bring back school resources officers. CNBC’s Joe Kernen didn’t pull any punches when confronting House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries about the government shutdown. There’s a new ‘Sober-Curious’ fad gaining steam across Washington State. // LongForm: GUEST: Congressman Michael Baumgartner (R-WA) on the historic Middle East peace deal brokered by the Trump Administration and an update on the government shutdown. // Quick Hit: Stealing from Boy Scouts, fighting for beach access, and swastikas in Issaquah.
Vivian Song is running for Seattle School Board District 5, which covers Montlake to the Central District, Leschi to Eastlake, Capitol Hill, Madison Valley, and Madison Park. Her opponent is Janis White. This interview is part of our 2025 Seattle School Board Candidate series. Every Seattle voter will vote on four school board races in the general election: Districts 2, 4, 5, and 7.About Vivian SongFinance professional and advocate for childrenParent with kids in both Seattle Public Schools and private schoolPreviously served as Seattle School Board directorWorked directly with SPS's $1.2 billion operating budgetServed on Levy Oversight CommitteeMember of a unionKey PositionsFirst Priority:Bring back Finance committee and Friday memosAdd another school board meeting each monthOn Structural Deficit:Look at largest sources (bus transportation and substitutes)Spend money more efficiently while delivering better servicesOn School Board Role:Serving as community representatives has been missingDistrict needs to bring community along in decisionsLack of community involvement needs to be front and centerOn Superintendent Search:Need someone good at building a team who can identify their strengths and weaknessesShould set plan for first 100 days and a 10-year visionConcerned chief academic officer position hasn't been filledOn District Structure:Supports hybrid approach balancing centralized and school-based decision makingSchools should have flexibility in professional development, enrichment, and culturally relevant curriculumCentral office should ensure equity and set clear goals for student successOn When Goals Aren't Met:Board should take action, not merely accept progress monitoringAsk what work has been done to understand why strategies haven't workedEnsure principals participate in progress monitoring and receive dataOn Community Engagement:Board should demonstrate awareness and push superintendent to make a planTrack and communicate what topics are being heard from communityBe careful not to listen only to loudest voicesOther Positions:Budgeting needs to be equitable and student-centeredSees board role as accountable to votersEducational Leader She Admires: John StanfordExcited to Work With: Director Joe MizrahiImportant InfoBallots mailed: October 15th | Due: November 4thAlso listen to: Interviews with all District 2, 4, 5, and 7 candidates at rainydayrecess.orgVivian's campaign: songforseattleschools.comPodcast info: rainydayrecess.org | hello@rainydayrecess.orgSupport the showContact us at hello@rainydayrecess.org.Rainy Day Recess music by Lester Mayo, logo by Cheryl Jenrow.
Janis White is running for Seattle School Board District 5, which covers the Central Area, part of the International District, Leschi, Madrona, Capitol Hill, Madison Valley, Madison Park, Montlake, and Eastlake. Her opponent is Vivian Song. This interview is part of our 2025 Seattle School Board Candidate series. Every Seattle voter will vote on four school board races in the general election: Districts 2, 4, 5, and 7.About Janis WhiteLawyer with over 40 years of practiceParent of three kids who attended Seattle Public Schools K-12 (graduated 2019 and 2023)Former president of Seattle Special Education PTSAFormer president of Ken Haven Music School boardAttended public school K-12 in Great Neck, New YorkHas testified at board meetings and state legislature many timesKey PositionsFirst Priority:Bring back standing committees, most urgently budget and finance committeeOn School Board Role:School board is accountable for proper operation of district (per state law)Must have processes to know if district is operating as intended by policiesNeeds regular reporting, school visits, community meetingsCannot say reviewing operations isn't part of the jobOn Superintendent Search:Need proven track record of implementing clear communication standards across large organizationExperience addressing problematic culture issuesMust have curiosity mindset about making change happenMust identify and address structural issues causing budget deficitsOn District Structure:Need to find right balance between centralization and site-based managementToo much centralization discourages community engagementNeed standards, expectations, and oversight for healthy systemProcess of finding balance would build community supportOn When Goals Aren't Met:Current goals don't properly follow Targeted Universalism frameworkBoard needs to ask more probing questions when goals not metShould express concern if staff are resistant to thinking outside the boxProgress monitoring system has encouraged attention to dataOn Community Engagement:Large turnouts at board meetings are symptom of failed communicationBoard not aware enough of how community experiences school systemGuardrails written too negatively (should state what you want, not what you don't)Board should respond to issues brought via public testimonyOther Positions:Strongly supports inclusive classrooms for students with disabilitiesDoesn't support over-reliance on standardized testingSchool board responsible to students and public at largeEducational Leader She Admires: Vivian Gussin Paley (her kindergarten teacher, MacArthur Fellow)Looking Forward to Working With: All directors (believes collaboration with all colleagues is essential)Important InfoBallots mailed: October 15th | Due: November 4thAlso listen to: Interviews with all District 2, 4, 5, and 7 candidates at rainydayrecess.orgJanis's campaign: https://www.janisforseattleschools.com/Podcast info: rainydayrecess.org | hello@rainydayrecess.orgSupport the showContact us at hello@rainydayrecess.org.Rainy Day Recess music by Lester Mayo, logo by Cheryl Jenrow.
Laura Marie Rivera is running for Seattle School Board District 4, which covers Queen Anne, Belltown, South Lake Union, Downtown to I-5, Pioneer Square area, and parts of Fremont and Wallingford (including Lincoln High School). Her opponent is Joe Mizrahi. This interview is part of our 2025 Seattle School Board Candidate series. Every Seattle voter will vote on four school board races in the general election: Districts 2, 4, 5, and 7.About Laura Marie RiveraRecently completed Doctor of Education (defended dissertation during campaign)Two decades as educator, nonprofit professionalFounded nonprofit on motherhood and leadership (first-of-its-kind study with nearly 1,000 responses)Parent of four: two recent SPS graduates, twins in elementary schoolMember of four unions throughout careerWent to school in San Juan Unified School District, Sacramento, CaliforniaKey PositionsFirst Priority:Restore second school board meeting every monthMore public engagement and better communication with staffOn School Board Role:Directors need to be more flexible beyond policy-settingShould look at individual students and how they're reaching goalsBoard should facilitate responses when systems aren't working for studentsOn Superintendent Search:Need someone with experience managing large budget and deficitWant actual education experience to understand classroom impactBoard needs to improve relationship with superintendent's office and publicConcerned current board hasn't set up next superintendent for successOn District Structure:Flexibility is keyFront-line educators and staff should make decisions (they see kids daily)All kids don't need same things—they're individualsCan't set one approach for 50,000 students at district policy levelOn When Goals Aren't Met:Goals are modest; would like higher goalsMust step down to individual level to understand what each child needsCould be classroom support, breakfast, undiagnosed learning disabilityEach individual child needs to meet standards for best chance at successOn Community Engagement:SPS has talked about engagement and communication for entire decadeReducing public engagement was a mistakeNeed to be thoughtful about what to do with community inputTask force recommendations should not be ignoredOther Positions:Strongly supports SPS non-discrimination policy (though notes it doesn't always work in practice)Sees board role as both trustee and representativeBelieves budget is a moral documentEducational Leader She Admires: Gina Davis (founder of Gina Davis Institute on Gender in Media)Looking Forward to Working With: Liza Rankin (though they don't see eye to eye on many things)Important InfoBallots mailed: October 15th | Due: November 4thAlso listen to: Interviews with all District 2, 4, 5, and 7 candidates at rainydayrecess.orgLaura Marie's campaign: https://lauramarie4seattleschools.com/Podcast info: rainydayrecess.org | hello@rainydayrecess.orgSupport the showContact us at hello@rainydayrecess.org.Rainy Day Recess music by Lester Mayo, logo by Cheryl Jenrow.
Joe Mizrahi is running for Seattle School Board District 4, which covers Queen Anne, Fremont, Belltown, and South Lake Union. His opponent is Laura Marie Rivera. This interview is part of our 2025 Seattle School Board Candidate series. Every Seattle voter will vote on four school board races in the general election: Districts 2, 4, 5, and 7.About Joe MizrahiSecretary Treasurer of UFCW 3000 (represents 60,000 frontline workers)Currently serving as District 4 school board director (appointed)Parent of three daughters in Seattle Public SchoolsCo-chair of $2 billion pension fundServes on multiple boardsHas testified to state legislature annually since 2008Key PositionsFirst Priority:Bring back committee structures for board membersNeed deeper dives on issuesOn School Board Role:Hold district accountable to voters' values and strategic visionApprove budget with eye toward sustainability for next decadeBe connective tissue with general publicOn Superintendent Search:Need someone who can hold system accountableStrong communication skills and ability to draw in communityBrings strong vision for districtOn District Structure:Worst choice is operating halfway between systemsLikes autonomy for different program choicesNeeds centralization for support and standardsEvery building should have its own feelOn When Goals Aren't Met:Hold superintendent accountable through evaluationsSet meeting agendas to make staff explain issuesCan reject plans and ask for better onesBe careful not to over-rely on standardized testsOn Community Engagement:Use board position to bring issues to meetings and agendaExample: forced district to address waitlists and enrollmentJob is to carry community concerns, not tell educators how to do their jobsOther Positions:Strongly supports special education inclusion and dual language immersionSees board role as both trustee and representativeEducational Leader He Admires: His mother (special education teacher who fought for inclusion)Most Aligned With: School Board President Gina ToppImportant InfoBallots mailed: October 15th | Due: November 4thAlso listen to: Interviews with all District 2, 4, 5, and 7 candidates at rainydayrecess.orgJoe's campaign: joe4schools.comPodcast info: rainydayrecess.org | hello@rainydayrecess.orgSupport the showContact us at hello@rainydayrecess.org.Rainy Day Recess music by Lester Mayo, logo by Cheryl Jenrow.
Kathleen Smith is running for Seattle School Board District 2, which covers Magnolia, Ballard, North Beach, and Green Lake. Her opponent is Sarah Clark. This interview is part of our 2025 Seattle School Board Candidate series. Every Seattle voter will vote on four school board races in the general election: Districts 2, 4, 5, and 7.About Kathleen SmithData scientist at MicrosoftParent of 5-year-old entering kindergarten in SPSComes from family of educatorsAttended public schools, then Annie Wright School in TacomaEndorsed by Seattle Education AssociationKey PositionsFirst Priority:Add more ways for student school board directors to have power and contributeOn School Board Role:Board sets policy and holds district accountable through superintendentCurrently a disconnect between board and districtNeed balance between micromanaging and providing clear guardrailsImportant to build strong working relationships for alignmentOn Superintendent Search:Should consider hiring interim superintendent firstNeed someone who will truly listen to communityBalance listening with leading with confidenceMust understand Seattle's geographic and demographic diversityOn District Structure:Current balance is worst of both worldsSchools have accountability (funding tied to enrollment) but no controlDistrict should be more accountable for quality; schools have more controlAllow for local differentiationOn When Goals Aren't Met:Getting new superintendent is biggest lever for changeBoard doesn't have power to force district to changePower is in finding superintendent who will guide needed changesOn Community Engagement:Ultimate power is finding right superintendentBoard can help engage community to define expectations clearlyIf district won't listen, must replace superintendentOn Her Approach:Not a policy wonk; brings data analysis and science skillsWants clearer metrics for measuring equityKnown for seeking different perspectives and listeningFast learner despite learning curveWants to fight for educator living wagesOther Positions:Strongly supports Individuals with Disabilities Education ActSees board role as accountable to votersEducational Leader She Admires: Her mother (teacher)Looking Forward to Working With: Liza RankinImportant InfoBallots mailed: October 15th | Due: November 4thAlso listen to: Interviews with all District 2, 4, 5, and 7 candidates at rainydayrecess.orgKathleen's campaign: https://www.smith-for-schools.com/Podcast info: rainydayrecess.org | hello@rainydayrecess.orgSupport the showContact us at hello@rainydayrecess.org.Rainy Day Recess music by Lester Mayo, logo by Cheryl Jenrow.
For many, theology brings to mind dusty bookshelves, abstract arguments, and rigid dogmas. But what if theology wasn't static? What if it could move, breathe, and shape the way we live, love, and lead in the world? In this episode, Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen are joined by Dr. Lauren D. Sawyer to talk about living theology—a way of engaging God and Scripture that doesn't stay confined to the context of books, a classroom, or even church, but instead has “feet” that walk into our everyday lives. Lauren shares about The Seattle School's new Certificate in Living Theology, a one-year online program designed to bring theology into conversation with psychology, culture, story, and community. Together, they explore why theology is never neutral, how our contexts shape what we believe, and why listening and dialogue are as essential as doctrine. You'll hear how living theology is less about arriving at final answers and more about cultivating a faith that is reflective, embodied, and responsive to the complexities of our time. If you've ever longed for a way of doing theology that feels deeply connected to life, justice, and relational depth, this conversation is an invitation to consider what it means for theology to truly come alive. Learn more about the Certificate in Living Theology: theseattleschool.edu/programs/living-theology-certificate
Washington, Oregon, and California are forming a coalition to give out their own vaccine guidance in defiance of changes made by the CDC. Seattle schools are dealing with a drop in enrollment and a budget deficit. // Big Local: The North Shore School District is instituting a cell phone ban in classrooms. Schools in Spokane bought hundreds of fans in order to deal with the sweltering heat on the first day of class. A man who authorities call the most dangerous driver in Washington was arrested in Thurston County. The FBI says the bones found at a campsite near Leavenworth are not the bones of Travis Decker. // You Pick the Topic: Why are so many people crying at work?
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