Podcasts about i i've

“Das my homegirl” “The box may be too deep” “You and your dusty friends” On this episode of This is Thirty, Gernique is joined by Mich aka LifeisGreat of the #ifyoudontsayitwewill podcast. The two discuss solo trips, the Iive podcast, practicing abstinence before marriage, social media rules and more. They also address several questions that weren't able to be answered at the live show. (6:00) The podcast begins as Gernique discusses the importance of solo trips. (12:00) Should we be grinding or living our best lives in our thirties? (14:00) Why do men play games? (20:00) When is the right time to move in with your partner? (22:00) Why do men continue to sleep with women they have no intentions of being with? (30:00) Does size matter? (40:00) Healing before relationships. (60:00) Bills and splits the never-ending convo?!

There is a difference between planning from a place of power, and merely hiding from pain. In today's episode, I utilize the wisdom of the Samurai, to give us guidance on how to Iive more courageously. Visit: imnotyou.com/KI

Welcome to our 30Women 30Days of Ramadan Take Over. For Day 24, we had Zahra Zakariya, who is the founder of the Umm Fariha Network. In this session, she spoke on reconnecting with your Rabb through dua, sharing her big dua aspirations and affirmations. Do enjoy this take over session proudly brought to by the Umm Fariha Network. You can also watch this session Iive - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M-hPBnIY9A&list=PL9az5GQEpG8j1__g9V2zfPdPj0jJo3jNG&index=23 --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Today’s SACRED S.O.L. STORY was inspired by my morning workout partner… The Big. Fat. Fly. On the window in front of me. I asked myself, what lesson is in this for me? Change positions. You’ll never get to where you desire to go if you stay where you are. You’ll never be who you can become if you don’t BE YOU. NOW. We’re in Chapter 9: Engagement Four of Date Yourself Well — BE YOU. Today we’re discussing page 77. “Often we Iive our days as a version of who we are, but not necessarily the truest version, or the one that is most complete.” Please grab your SACRED S.O.L. D.A.T.E. JOURNAL (Daily Action To Engage yourself.) TODAY’S SACRED S.O.L. STEP:   Where in your life are you not fully BEING YOU? Are you willing to change your position and get a new perspective on what it truly means to BE YOU? Journal this out… I would love to hear what happens for you... Thank you for being here, and allowing me to Sip On Life with you. If you’ve been feeling like you’re stuck, overwhelmed, or perhaps you still feel like you’re drowning in your life, please don’t hesitate to reach out. YOU ARE NOT ALONE... Request a FREE copy of my best-selling book, Date Yourself Well — The Best-Selling 12 Engagements Of Becoming The Great Lover Of Your Life (all you'll pay for is shipping.) www.dateyourselfwell.com If you've received value from the podcast, please let me know. I'd LOVE to hear from you — please email me at: drshannon@doctorshannon.com AND PLEASE TELL YOUR BESTIES AND INVITE THEM TO SIP ON LIFE WITH US. FOLLOW ME ON INSTAGRAM @doctorshannon! See you there... And learn about an incredible opportunity for a select sacred group of 25 women who are ready and willing to RISE UP AND BE THE WOMAN. If you’ve been feeling like you’re stuck, overwhelmed, or perhaps you still feel like you’re drowning, please don’t hesitate to reach out. I’d be more than happy to schedule a Discovery Call with you to see if Healing Life Coaching is a good fit for you. Email me at drshannon@doctorshannon.com Come over to the WOMEN SIPPING ON LIFE S.O.L. MOVEMENT Closed FB Group and Join the MOVEMENT: https://www.facebook.com/groups/WSOLMovement/ By the way, if you haven't already listened/downloaded my new song (EPISODE 291), you can also listen to it here: letsnottalkaboutex.com, and cast your vote for your favorite version.  Visit WomenSippingOnLife.com for more free resources, including my CHECKLIST FOR CHANGE, Engagement Checklist + Evaluation Rating, Six Sacred S.O.L. DATE Secrets…and a FREE copy of my best-selling book, Date Yourself Well. You can also check out my Dr. Shannon Facebook Page for more daily S.O.L. TRAINING. I look forward to seeing you again tomorrow. Please invite your best girlfriends to come and join our S.O.L. PARTY. xo Dr. Shannon. Inspiring minds that want to grow and hearts that want to know, so you can love you, your life, and your life’s work well. ONE SIP AT A TIME. A special thanks to the following souls for helping me launch our WOMEN SIPPING ON LIFE podcast… Intro/Outro done by UNI V. SOL  Outro music by Jay Man: Mind Over Matter (www.ourmusicbox.com)  Podcast cover design and web site done by: Pablo Aguilar (www.webdesigncreator.com) Podcast cover photo by Kate Montague of KM Captured (www.kmcaptured.com) 

"I've never known how to be anybody else but me." - Jose the Barefoot Photographer. In this episode, Emmeline sits down with photographer and videographer Jose Camacho, known as "Jose the Barefoot Photographer."  Jose shares stories about what inspired him to begin taking pictures professionally, what continues to inspire him as a photographer, how Iive music is an essential part of his artistic process, and why the journey from photography to videography was a natural progression.  They also talk about Jose's favorite EDM music, why Jose doesn't wear shoes, and how his authenticity as a person informs his art. Jose shares his love for the song "As The Rush Comes" by Motorcycle.  Emmeline and Jose also talk about a project in which they're both involved, Dallas Music Network, and his time working with pop artist Poppy Xander.To follow Jose's journey or to see more of his photography, find him on Instagram at @abarefootphotographer. You can also book a photography session or see more of his projects on his official website.  For behind-the-scenes information and more about Journey of an Artist, follow Emmeline on Instagram at @EmmelineMusic.

We continue our series on prayer tips as we explore how to Iive out Paul's command to pray without ceasing by using the psalms as a teaching tool. For further reading on the categories of Psalms, check out this site http://quietshout.com/introduction-to-psalms/psalm-types/#.YBAeTehKiUl --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/holyawkwardsilence/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/holyawkwardsilence/support

Grief sucks. I've had to figure out how to Iive amidst so much ache this week while surrendering completely to the pain and whirlwind of letting go. It's sad, variable to each person, private, personal and something that we can also relate to as a universal experience. Thanks for listening, not sure if this is the best medium to help me to process, so I may take a breather and come back... thanks for listening

Iive at YouTube/Cast-Box+- TGE SUNDAY NIGHT BIBLE STUDY PRAISE & WORSHIP PODCAST.& DAILY CONVERSATIONS, MESSAGES & * NEW BIBLE STUDY SERIES.IN THE TORAH/K.J.V./ORTHODOX STUDY BIBLE/N.LT.+- BLESSINGS & THANK YOU!!

On this Iive for show ur creps we had the pleasure of talking to the self proclaimed king of trainers and he gave us some onsite to he pedigree in the crep community.

Today’s SACRED S.O.L. STORY was inspired by my morning workout partner… The Big. Fat. Fly. On the window in front of me. I asked myself, what lesson is in this for me? Change positions. You’ll never get to where you desire to go if you stay where you are. You’ll never be who you can become if you don’t BE YOU. NOW. We’re in Chapter 9: Engagement Four of Date Yourself Well — BE YOU. Today we’re discussing page 77. “Often we Iive our days as a version of who we are, but not necessarily the truest version, or the one that is most complete.” Please grab your SACRED S.O.L. D.A.T.E. JOURNAL (Daily Action To Engage yourself.) TODAY’S SACRED S.O.L. STEP:   Where in your life are you not fully BEING YOU? Are you willing to change your position and get a new perspective on what it truly means to BE YOU? Journal this out… I would love to hear what happens for you... Thank you for being here, and allowing me to Sip On Life with you. I’m going to be inviting listeners onto the program. If you have a story you'd like to share — a song to sing (but not a Poor Me Story) — send me an email at: drshannon@doctorshannon.com and put SHARE MY STORY in the subject line. If you've received value from the podcast, please let me know. I'd LOVE to hear from you — please email me at: drshannon@doctorshannon.com AND PLEASE TELL YOUR BESTIES AND INVITE THEM TO SIP ON LIFE WITH US. FOLLOW ME ON INSTAGRAM @doctorshannon! See you there... Go to YOU BE THE WOMAN NOW to learn more about our next 4-Week YOU BE THE WOMAN Program. Apply today.  And learn about an incredible opportunity for a select sacred group of 25 women who are ready and willing to RISE UP AND BE THE WOMAN. If you’ve been feeling like you’re stuck, overwhelmed, or perhaps you still feel like you’re drowning, please don’t hesitate to reach out. I’d be more than happy to schedule a Discovery Call with you to see if Healing Life Coaching is a good fit for you. Email me at drshannon@doctorshannon.com Come over to the WOMEN SIPPING ON LIFE S.O.L. MOVEMENT Closed FB Group and Join the MOVEMENT: https://www.facebook.com/groups/WSOLMovement/ By the way, if you haven't already listened/downloaded my new song (EPISODE 291), you can also listen to it here: letsnottalkaboutex.com, and cast your vote for your favorite version.  Visit WomenSippingOnLife.com for more free resources, including my CHECKLIST FOR CHANGE, Engagement Checklist + Evaluation Rating, Six Sacred S.O.L. DATE Secrets…and a FREE copy of my best-selling book, Date Yourself Well. You can also check out my Dr. Shannon Facebook Page for more daily S.O.L. TRAINING. I look forward to seeing you again tomorrow. Please invite your best girlfriends to come and join our S.O.L. PARTY. xo Dr. Shannon. Inspiring minds that want to grow and hearts that want to know, so you can love you, your life, and your life’s work well. ONE SIP AT A TIME. A special thanks to the following souls for helping me launch our WOMEN SIPPING ON LIFE podcast… Intro/Outro done by UNI V. SOL  Outro music by Jay Man: Mind Over Matter (www.ourmusicbox.com)  Podcast cover design and web site done by: Pablo Aguilar (www.webdesigncreator.com) Podcast cover photo by Kate Montague of KM Captured (www.kmcaptured.com) 

What do you do when you’ve spent over a year posting a weekly commentary on how tech ideas and concepts relate to Jewish thought, and specifically the Torah reading for that week? You make a book, of course. That’s exactly how Torah && Tech came to be, and on this episode, I'll talk to the two authors, Rabbi/Programmers Ben Greenberg and Yechiel Kalmenson. Listen or read the transcript below. Leon (00:32): Welcome to our podcast, where we talk about the interesting, frustrating, and inspiring experiences we have as people with strongly held religious views working in corporate IT, we're not here to preach or teach you our religion. We're here to explore ways. We make our careers as IT professionals mash, or at least not conflict, with our religious life. This is Technically Religious. Leon (00:53): What do you do when you've spent over a year posting a weekly commentary on how tech ideas and concepts relate to Jewish thought and specifically the Torah reading for that week? You make a book of course! And that's exactly how "Torah and Tech" came to be. And today on our podcast, we're going to talk about it. I'm Leon Adato. And the other voices you're going to hear on this episode are my partners in podcasting crime and the focus of today's episode. We've got Yechiel Kalmenson. Yechiel (01:18): Hello. Leon (01:19): and Ben Greenberg. Ben (01:20): Hello there. Leon (01:21): And you've both been on Technically Religious before. So you know how this works. We begin with shameless self promotion. So Ben kick it off. Tell us a little bit about you and where people can find out more of your glorious, good thinking and work. Ben (01:34): Okay. Shamelessly. So I'm Ben Greenberg and I'm a developer advocate at Vonage. And you can find me on twitter @rabbigreenberg and/or on my website at bengreenberg.dev that's Greenberg with an E not a U and find me in general on the internet bank, Greenberg dev, dev dot two all over the place. Leon (01:54): And how do you identify religiously? Ben (01:55): Mostly identify as an Orthodox Jew. Leon (01:57): Yechiel you're next. Yechiel (01:58): Well, I'm a Yechiel Kalmenson again, um, I'm usually a software engineer at VMware currently taking family leave to be a full time dad. You can find me on Twitter @yehielk. You can find my blog rabbionrails.io and like Ben, I identify as an Orthodox Jew. Leon (02:15): Great. And just to circle around I'm Leon Adato, I'm a Head Geek at SolarWinds. Yes. That's my actual job title and SolarWinds is neither solar nor wind. It's a software vendor that makes monitoring stuff because naming things is apparently hard. You can find me on the Twitters as I like to say, because it horrifies my children @leonadato. You can also hear me pontificate about things, both technical and religious, on my blog adatosystems.com. And I also, for the trifecta, identify as an Orthodox Jew. And if you're scribbling any of this down, stop it, put your hands back on the steering wheel, pay attention to the road. Listen, because we're going to have these things in our show notes, along with all the other links and ideas that we're going to mention in the next little bit. So you don't have to write it down. We've done the writing for you. Um, now normally we dive into our topic, but because the topic is a book I'd like to go from shameless self promotion to shameless book promotion can one of you please tell me where people can get their hands on a copy of Torah && Tech. Yechiel (03:15): For sure. Well, you can buy the book at most retailers and Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Goodreads, nah Goodreads isn't a retailer. Um, pretty much anywhere where you can buy books. You can also read more about the book and about our newsletter on our website at Torahandtech.dev that's Torahandtech.dev. Leon (03:35): So diving in, I think one of the first questions, a lot of folks who were working in tech or religion have is what does it take to make a book? Like, just talk about the process of getting this book together, getting it online, selling it, editing it all the, you know, how was that process for you? Ben (03:53): It takes a lot of sleepless nights right now, Yechiel (03:55): For sure. So in all fairness, unlike other books where you sit and write it, like this book is a little different, it's sort of, it's a compilation of the year's worth of weekly newsletters. So the sleepless nights were spread out over a year of Thursday nights. When you realize a 10 o'clock "gosh, I didn't do the newsletter yet." Ben (04:14): So there, there was two things that we did when we took, we decided, okay, we have this year of newsletter content. We want to turn into a book. There were two things that we did almost the exact same time. We took all the content of the year's newsletters and put into one big Google doc, which you can imagine, Leon, it's like a bit of a messy document. And then we did the second thing, which was, we direct messaged you on Twitter and said, "how do we make a book?!" Those are the two things that we did once we had those. Yechiel (04:41): Yeah, because while we're on this subject, I do want to give a shout out the idea to actually put this in the book, came to me when I was helping Leon work on his book. Uh, "The Four Questions Every Monitoring Engineer Asks", or I did a bunch of that. Um, yeah. So over a year ago, Leon asked me to help him edit a book, which turned out to be just reading and telling Leon how awesome it was. Leon (05:02): You are my rabbinic sensitivity reader, which I know it sounds like I'm making a joke, but it really was. I am not a rabbi. Um, I've never been to Yeshiva and I was writing a book that was at least 50% Judaic content. And I wanted to make sure that I wasn't talking out of my rearend sometimes. So I needed somebody who was like, yeah, no, see that idea there? No, that's not a thing. Yeah. Yechiel (05:23): But like I said, I ended up just rubber stamping it because it was pretty good as, as it was you know, I forced myself to put comments just to justify the money you actually paid me for it, but it was good. Anyway, Ben (05:36): You sound like a city rabbinic kosher supervisor in Israel. Leon (05:40): Oh gosh. Wow. And some of you will get that joke. Yechiel (05:47): With the exception that this book was actually kosher, but yeah, but working on that book and also hearing the Technically Religious episode where you spoke about that book gave me the idea that, Hey, should maybe put this into a book. And I, I reached out to Ben about the idea and he was all for it too. So when it was time to actually do it, when we got through a year, um, we reached out to Leon. And if anyone is thinking of writing a book, I think Leon might be able to squeeze you into his busy schedule. Ben (06:12): Not through volunteering your time. Leon (06:13): Yeah. Right. No, no. I am. I mean, people who have been listening to this podcast know that, um, we are here for you, whoever, whoever the we is and whoever the, you are, we are here for you. So if that is something you want to know, I'm happy to talk to you about the process. Um, but I'm curious, did you, did you get an editor involved? Ben (06:31): I had a little bit experience putting together a book before I, when I was in, uh, working in the congregational Jewish world, both on campus in the synagogue. I put together a book when I was on campus and a particular book in the congregational world. And they were both again self published. And, uh, and I did everything. I edited my own, uh, texts. I made my own graphic design. I put together the manuscript I, I did from A to Z and this time around, I didn't want to do that again because I know that I'm not a good editor of my own content. And I know from experience the mistakes that I find and unlike something in the digital space, it is much harder to edit a mistake once it's printed and in people's bookshelves. And it's much harder to put out a version 1.01, exactly bug fixes are harder in hardcover or paperback copies. Leon (07:26): Really difficult. Ben (07:27): It's very difficult. Leon (07:28): So patching becomes a very literal process. Ben (07:31): Very little process, like print it out, another piece of paper and tape it onto the book. Uh, so this time around, I really want to make sure that we had people with us who could help us, who were not so, uh, I wanna say privileged to the text or who read it at such privilege readers as the ones who write it, the people who look at it with a more critical eye. And so we did hire, uh, people, uh, to both edit all the texts, uh, spelling, grammar, flow, style. And we actually work with somebody who specifically was not our rabbinic supervisor, Leon, somebody who didn't have extensive Jewish background or experience. Coz one of the goals of the book for us is to be accessible to those without that background. And so every time she raised a question, "what is that? What is this? How do I understand that." It was a great moment to inflect and think about, well, how do we make that better? And how do we make that more accessible? And how do we make that more understandable? So that was a critical part of the work she brought to it as well. Um, yeah, so we, and then we hired somebody to help us with graphic design and somebody to help us with the type scripting, uh, type scripting type scripting? The manuscript type setting type scripting. My mind has been too much in typescripts recently. Type setting. Like type of this book, Leon (08:51): It's a strongly typed book. Ben (08:53): It's a very strongly typed. Yes, indeed. It's got a method signature for every chapter. Uh, that is a, that was a bit of the process. And then of course they, every one of them, I mean, were offered invaluable help. Right? I think that that's true. Right? Yechiel. They all, they've made the book turn from a big, huge Google doc with a year's worth of newsletter content into something that actually could be printed and made sense and looked and looks presentable. Leon (09:23): So again, for people listening, thinking, Oh wait, no, you know, I haven't thought about making a book, but maybe that's a thing. So we're talking about, um, first of all, doing the work of the work, right? Writing the book in this case, you divided the work into 52, easy to digest pieces. Um, and just wrote a little bit of the book every week. Um, I want to remind everybody that if you write 10,000 words a day, you'll have a book. And if you write 2000 words a day, you'll have a book. And you write 50 words a day, you will have a book. Please do not think that there is some minimum requirement of word generation before you can have a book. Um, I, I'm a big believer that people who, who do writing should understand how powerful it is and share it. So that's the first piece. The second piece though, is that once you've done the work of the work and you have the book, um, you got an outside editor in this case, you got a fresh set of eyes to look at this and say, this makes no sense to me whatsoever. Um, can you clean that up? And that was your Canary in the coal mine, so to speak and also graphic design, which, um, is I think again for a lot of us, it's like, well, what do you mean? I just want words on a page and there's a cover, there's, you know, you know, art inside the book always helps to illustrate a point. You know, how, how involved was the graphic designer for all that? Yechiel (10:43): Yeah. In our case, there's no graphics in the inside the book, there's no pictures or anything or diagrams. Um, so it was just for the cover, I think, no, unless you're referring to the type setting, Ben (10:51): It was just the cover. The type setting was separate. That was a separate person to help us with that. But that also, by the way, people often don't think about those sorts of things. Like what style do you want the words to come out as? What are the, each font choice reflects a different sort of, it's almost like an interior designer for a book, you know, like you're trying to think of what kind of vibe you want to send with the fonts you choose. And then double for us on top of that was while the book is entirely, mostly in English, there are a few snippets in, in Hebrew, which are translated on the spot. So if you don't understand Hebrew. You don't have to be stumped by that. But then at the same time, the what about font and type for a non-English characters. And how do you present that in a primarily English book. These sorts of questions, which I don't think I definitely, I didn't think about before we started engaging in it and ends up being really a crucial part of it. Because if the presentation, the book isn't worthwhile, if someone doesn't enjoy holding the book and wants to read the book, they're not going to read the book and then all your efforts are essentially for naught. Leon (12:04): Right? And, and I'll underscore another point is that, first of all, just the types need consistency that chapter headings have to look the same all throughout the book and they can't look the same as subheadings and they can't look the same as whatever they should be similar. Like you said, you know, good interior design means that, uh, you know, there's a theme that I know when I go from one room to another room, it doesn't feel jarring, but at the same time, I know I'm in a different place. I'm looking at different things, but also something that people don't think about is, uh, electronic publishing, that it's not just about the printed book. It's also when you're, when you're doing an E publishing, those font choices are critically important to the conversion, into an ebook that if you get it wrong things, things don't lay out correctly anymore because the epub generator, whether you're talking about, um, Amazon's Kindle, uh, or, uh, Smashwords meat grinder or whatever it is really needs those font choices to be the same all the way through the book to know what it's doing. So having a typesetter who's aware of that and who can catch those little mistakes, say, I will tell you, it saves hours because I did it myself for the book. And it was probably the most labor intensive part of the entire book that I did because I didn't know what I was doing. Ben (13:24): You would you say it's more labor intensive than the work of the work of actually writing the book? Leon (13:28): Yeah, it was, it was, it was more, it was more error prone. I had to go back and redo the conversion to the ebook probably almost a hundred times before I finally was able to find my butt with both hands and, and get it done. So yeah, it's, it's really a big deal. Okay. So what else about the book creating process, um, was interesting to you or exciting to you or frustrating to you or whatever? You know, what stands out? Yechiel (13:57): I guess I will say don't come in with the expectation of like making a million dollars off of it. Um, Leon (14:05): Only half a million. Yechiel (14:07): Okay. Especially if you're self publishing, it's not an expensive process at all. Um, I think we got it under about $500. If we make that back, that'll be nice if we make a little more, um, that'll be even nicer, but yeah, I don't see this. Uh, I don't see us quitting our day jobs anytime soon over this. Leon (14:27): Uh, and I will second that, uh, yeah, The Four Questions has not, in fact, uh, supplemented my income to the point where it can cover my mortgage or even Starbucks and a year and a half later, uh, yeah, a year and a half later, it still hasn't paid for itself. So I it's a labor of love. The next question I have for you though, is we've talked about right, because you really have something you have to say. So what was that you had to say, what is the thing that you couldn't live without having this book around to put it into the world? Ben (14:59): I think it, for me, it's the same thing that the driving force behind the weekly newsletter, which is really the impetus for the book and the foundation of the book, which actually Leon, if I can be as audacious is also a bit of what your podcast is about, which is that the world of technology, the industry that we're in, despite what many might think is not a value neutral conversation is not a value neutral industry at that, that there is a need to have value driven conversations and ethics driven conversations in the work that we do day in and day out. And the newsletter, which really was, as I said, the foundation of the book and the book itself is our attempt to really put out that message through the authentic voices for us, which is through our traditions, through the tradition of Torah, their tradition of Judaism, but it could be in anyone's authentic voice, the same kind of idea, which is to engage in that value driven conversation. Yechiel (16:01): And the corollary to that. I think in the other direction, you know, there are some, you know, some voices in the religious side that view technology as a threat or, you know, something to be avoided or at least, you know, severely limited. Um, I think it's important for people to realize that technology just like anything else in the world is a tool, a tool that can be used for bad, but can be used for good. And it can be used to, you know, some people may feel threatened a bit, but on the other hand, it can be used to promote values of goodness and kindness and justice. And that's another point that, uh, that and the Torah && Tech, the double ampersand, which implies that both are needed Torah, you know, tech without Torah or values in general, um, can go very dangerously. But also Torah without tech is missing a way of expression. Leon (16:53): Right? I think that that one of the most powerful lessons that's come out of this podcast and also as I've been reading the book is, is that two way street that if you can accept, so let's say you're coming from a religious point of view. If you can accept that, um, Torah has relevance to technology, you then must accept that technology has relevance to Torah. And if on the other hand, you're coming at this from a technical point of view, and you're just kind of curious about, you know, how could you make that relevant to, you know, religion? Like what is that all about? If you accept that that technology has incredible relevance to religion, it helps not only as a message spreading technology, but also as a, you know, this is how you collect data and this is how you validate things. And this is how you, you know, all of those wonderful things that we as IT people do. And you say, this is valid toward, uh, a religious tradition. Then you must accept that the religious tradition can reflect back. Ben (17:50): You know, I often think about the moment of the printing press and what the printing press did as a technology to traditional communities like our community, like the Jewish community, what it did to it was not only just a print books, it radicalized the availability and accessibility of knowledge across communities and people, regardless of station life, regardless of, uh, you know, where they started from had with effort could have the ability to find a book and get the education to open that book and have access to storehouse of knowledge. And of course it began as a trickle when the printing press began, right? Because the amount of books were small, but then as years went by and the, the availability of books can greater and greater, I'll give you a great example of this is if you go to a lot of, uh, older synagogues from several hundred years ago in medieval Europe, and they're still around in Poland and Ukraine and Russia, you often find that their, the walls are covered with the prayers. And the reason why they're covered with the prayers because no one had initially had access to books. And so they would come into synagogue and they would need to know the words of the liturgy to say. And the only way they knew what words to say was by like literally going into three 60, turning around in the synagogue to follow the walls of the, of the prayers that were covered in them. And then the printing press happens. And suddenly over a period of time, a revolution occurred in, uh, in a democratic visitation of knowledge. And you could say a similar thing is happening and it's happened and is currently still happening in technology of today and what it's doing and how can we not have that double ampersand conversation of how it's impacting both Torah and how Torah is being impacted by it and how the two of them are in conversation with each other. Leon (19:47): And I can't help but think about, uh, so it's, uh, what is it now? Is it still June? I dunno. It's like the 327th day of March, as far as I can tell it's, uh, it's yeah. It's June, um, June, 2020. And, uh, so, you know, COVID is a thing that's still happening. And the joke is that in January, every yeshiva in America, every yeshiva across the world would be tell families if you have a television it's, you know, if you have technology, it's really not okay. You need to keep technology completely out of the hands of your, our students. We don't want their, their minds sullied by this technology. And by the end of February, every yeshiva on the planet was like, okay, so you just jump on your internet and go to Chrome and go to Google meet so that you can have your chevroota. The pivot to technology was like instantaneous. It was just Ben (20:38): Wish it was instantaneous. So, and I'll give you an example from our, our own lives. Uh, when our kids were in Israel, we're doing a remote learning in their schools, which was neither remote nor learning, but an attempt at doing remote learning, uh, initially was very chaotic. And the reason why it was so chaotic was a while our kids go to a state, uh, religious, uh, public school. So it's in the more modern end of the religious spectrum. It's not an ultra Orthodox public school. It's a, what might call a modern Orthodox public school. All of the educators in the public school that teach Judaic subjects come from the other side of the road for us, literally in where we live. And the other side of the road is an it's a beautiful city with wonderful people called Modi'in Illit and or Kiryat Sefer, and Kiryat Sefer doesn't have WhatsApp, doesn't have zoom, doesn't have Google meets. And so suddenly they're being told by the misrad hachinuch by the ministry of education, that they must do these classes over a technology. They don't even know they don't have computers in their, in their homes. How are they supposed to do this yet? They did. And they learned how, and suddenly after a very chaotic period of time, we have, you know, essentially charidi, uh, morot, charidi... Ultra Orthodox educators going and conducting, with professionalism, with like suave and knowing how to run a Zoom meeting with 40 Israeli kids and not be chaotic. But how do you get from A to Z? That was a bit of a tumultuous period, but to watch that happen in real time was quite amazing. Leon (22:22): I think we're at the point where people hopefully are interested in, but I want to identify who is this book for? Like, I could see that as I was sketching out the notes for this conversation, I thought, well, maybe it's for programmers. You know, who happened to be Jewish? Who are Judaism curious? Uh, maybe it's just for credit, you know, you needed credibility on Twitter. So you could say author in your Twitter profile. On the other hand, I could also see you writing this book for religious people who happen to be in technology, or are tech curious, or maybe it's just for your spouse to say, look, honey, this is what I've been doing with my evenings. Like what, who is this book for specifically? Who's your target audience? Yechiel (23:00): I just want to start off off the bat because it probably has to be said, this book is not intended to try to convert anyone to try to proselytize. Judaism specifically does not have a tradition of trying to proselytize people. And we're pretty adamant about that. We do not, not only are we not trying to proselytize you, we do not want you. We believe that, you know, God accepts everyone. God puts everyone in the world for a reason. If everyone was the same, it would be boring. Ben (23:27): Except my next door neighbor. Yechiel (23:28): Your next door neighbor might have to change. Um, but, but yeah, so this book is not trying to convert anyone. It was just, uh, presenting one point of view of many. Um, who did we write a for? Uh, I'll admit we started off for ourselves. Um, like the project are in tech. The weekly newsletter started as just like a small project for me and Ben to keep in touch, then ran off from like we used to, we used to be coworkers. We worked together at our first job and then Ben ran off to Israel, but that was one friendship I wasn't willing to let go so quickly. So, um, we started this project as a small collaboration to help us keep in touch, which solidly grew. And as it grew organically, we discovered on our own who our audience was. And it seems like the answer is - there's no one single answer. I mean, obviously like you said, you know, programmers with their religion, with an interest in religion or ethical conversations and religious people with an interest in tech, but also people who are completely not religious. Um, people from all ends of the spectrum, people are not technical. People are not religious. We've gotten feedback from all of them. And it seems like pretty much anyone who's interested and who believes, like Ben said that tech is not a value neutral, uh, space. And who believes that values, that these conversations around values have to take place, is the intended audience for this book and for the newsletter. Ben (24:58): Yeah. You know, it's, it's interesting how this we're finding well, the newsletter cause the newsletter's been around for a lot longer. Right. So how are finding the newsletter has impacted people. And then, and then as a addition to that, or an addendum to that as the book has been published and people are now getting a chance to sort of read the book, how it's impacting people. And just this evening, a few minutes before we had our engaged in this wonderful conversation together, I had one of my regular chats with one of my sets of aunts and uncles who live out in the great Northwest of America, the great Pacific Northwest. And they are not, uh, the most engaged couple in traditional religious Jewish life. And by not the most engaged, I mean, not engaged at all. And, uh, they bought the book, uh, and I think, and I asked them and I was correct. It was the first time they ever bought a book on Amazon and the Torah category in their entire adult lives, or, you know, lives in general from Amazon or any bookstore before the world of Amazon. And, uh, you know, I told, I told my uncle, you know, the next step is you have to actually open the book after you buy the book. He said, okay, fine. I'll get there eventually. But you know, the, you know, the idea that, that people are thinking, this is an interesting subject. And so he's, you know, he's far from this field as one can be he's in the medical profession, but the, but this such technology, right, it's pervasive and it's something a lot of people think about and they get, they get hit with it from media sources, from the news, whether it's talking about facial recognition or about, uh, tracking, uh, contact tracing of coronavirus patients, our government's authorizing tracking patients through smartphones. It was just a lot of that conversation happening, particularly in this moment and this time. So this book is piquing that curiosity, I think of folks who are just kind of like, even if they're not in tech, but are curious about, you know, some of those larger questions that circulate that are integrated in the, in the world of technology. Leon (27:05): Right? And, and I think that we've gotten to a point where every new technology that comes in, a lot of people are having an automatic reaction of, "am I okay with this?" Not just, can I use this? Do I understand this? Because I think for most people they've gotten past, or they never were at a point where technology threatened them or made them feel uncomfortable. It was just a state of being it's on their phone, it's on their, whatever it is, it's a tech, right. And whether we're talking about Tik Tok or contact tracing or password management or whatever, um, or Facebook, the question isn't, how do I use this? The question is, am I okay with this? Right. And how do I use this? There are lots and lots and lots of guides out there for how do I do this, but am I okay with this? There's not a lot of guides that speak to, should I be okay with this? And it's not an, it's not an automatic yes or no for all of humanity. Right? You have to know who you are. You have to know where your, where you set your boundaries and that helps you identify, are you going to be the kind of person who's okay with it? Yechiel (28:17): For sure. And this conversation is actually what Torah && Tech is about. I like saying that we don't offer a lot of answers in Torah && Tech but we hope to start to start having you question, or we hope to start these conversations. I have had people asking these questions and discussing them and seeing for themselves, what are they okay with? What are they, you know, what values do they bring to their work? And you know, what type of people do they want to bring? What type of personalities do they want to bring to their, to their work, to their technology. Ben (28:47): Our chapters typically end with questioning back to the reader, asking the reader what they think. And we don't do that. Just rhetorically. We are also interested in what they actually genuinely think. And we want this to be a conversation. And it's actually, I think, part and parcel to our style and to the tradition that we come from, which is to answer a question with a question and to try and engage the person in. I'm not going to tell you what to think, because a there's a multiplicity of possibilities of how one could think about this, but I want you to come to what your approach to it. I want to come your answer. And I'm curious what you think. You know, just speaking personally, I'm really grateful that I work in a place where I have a manager who tolerates me answering every one of his questions with another question, and he never gets annoyed and he is not Jewish in any way, shape or form an amazing guy from England. And I think I'm the first person he's had to work with, who nonstop, only answers his questions with questions. And I'm grateful that he loves it. And we engage in this great discourse together. But we do the same thing in our book. We always leave readers with questions more than answers. Cause it's the, what was the, I forget exactly who, but there was a scientist who credited his, Speaker 3 (30:03): It yeah. Isador [Isaac] Rabi. He was a Nobel prize winning physicist. Ben (30:08): Leon you're just the font of knowledge. Leon (30:10): I've quoted him before. And he said, he said, I use this in a talk. I gave actually in Tel Aviv. Yechiel (30:15): In fact, you use it in your book as well. Leon (30:18): Uh Oh, it is in my book. That's right. He says, you know, um, more than anything, my mother made me, made me a scientist. Uh, he said that, you know, every other kid in Brooklyn would come home and their parents would say so, did you learn anything? My mother, no, not my mother not my mother. What did you ask any good questions today? Ben (30:34): I, I I've heard that quote so many times, and yet I still say to my kids, every time they get home, what'd you learn today? It's like, I can't absorb it. Leon (30:42): Right. You'll get there. Ben (30:44): They'll get there a Nobel prize because of me, because I didn't ask that question, Yechiel (30:47): They'll get it in their own rights. Leon (30:49): Right. They'll earn their own way. So, but that does lead me to an interesting question, which is, um, what are some of the comments that you've gotten back if you, if you end every post weekly post, and now every chapter in the book with a question, what are some of the interesting feedbacks that you pieces of feedback you've gotten over time? Anything that stands out in your mind? Yechiel (31:09): Actually, one conversation that was pretty interesting started in, uh, uh, in response to one of the issues of the newsletter that was put out. Um, this was actually like most newsletters. Like there's I know there are, Torah like we choose like a thought from the Parasha related to tech or current events or whatever it is. This one I decided to have just like a stream of thought, the stream of consciousness, um, about, about the culpability of AI, artificial intelligence, and specifically people who write it. Um, so let's say if I program and an artificial intelligence and it goes ahead and does some damage, how responsible am I for the actions of this program that I wrote? And I did it in the, like starting the style of a Talmudic discussion. Um, there wasn't much in the way of answers, just like raise different possibilities, um, look at, you know, why, why it would apply, why it wouldn't apply. Um, it was more of a stream of consciousness. I really hoped it made sense when I fired it off. Um, but actually that one was the one who got the most comments back. People like actually engaged in that conversation. And they're like, you know, people raised different possibilities, different analogies that I had missed. Um, it was a really enjoyable conversation, Leon (32:26): Probably about a year and a half ago. I had a conversation on a different podcast, um, the on-premise podcast, uh, which is part of gestalt IT, and there, again, there'll be links in the show notes. And, uh, the conversation was about bringing your whole self to work, whether or not it's okay. Whether there are certain things about ourselves that we should just leave at home, you know, as, as some people say, you know, you know, if you've, if you've got this thing going on, leave it on the door, leave it at the door. And we talked about whether that was even possible. Um, and for me being part of that conversation, the, you know, the elephant, the kippah wearing tsitsus draped elephant in the room was my Judaism. Like, can I leave my religion at the door? And what does that even look like? And at what point does, does keeping a lid on it means suppressing essential, important parts of myself, Ben, to your point, you know, it's part of our tradition to answer questions with questions that is part of the way that we analyze ideas. It's part of the way that we debate concepts. And of course in it, we do that. How much of that can I leave to the side before I stopped being me at all and become either offended or suppressed, not depressed, but although it could be that too. So I guess this is a two part question one, are you able to bring your whole selves to your job right now? Have you always been able to do that? And what was it like working on a project where that was so fully true that doing Torah && Tech allowed you to be every ounce of the programmers that you are, and also every ounce of the Jews that you are. So, you know, again, have you always been able to do that and what was it like working on this book? Ben (34:12): So I I'll start, I guess. And I think that, uh, to answer that question, it's kind of, to me, it feels like a bit of walking on a tightrope and, uh, I do make an effort to bring my whole self to my work. And in some ways I'm grateful for the unique circumstances that I'm in, which is that I happen to work in an international company with a very large R&D office in Israel. And so everyone in all the other offices across the company have become, acculturated to, uh, well, Israel and Jews are not one and the same. That is true. That's a very important statement to make. And Israeli Jews are not the same as Jews from other parts of the world. That's also true and there's a great diversity, but nonetheless, it is people who live in places where there are no Jews at all. So who become acculturated to working with Jews. And so that's helpful. And, you know, and not only just Jews, right, Leon, but also kippah wearing Jews, you know, observant Jews in the Tel Aviv office. And so they get to interact with them and they come and visit here in the pre pre days before the crurrent days, they would spend time with that and, and be attuned to the sensitivity of kosher restaurants, things like that. So that's part a and part B is yes, that's all true, but you also don't want to be harping on it all the time and you don't want it, You have to always be sensitive a little bit of being mixed up SIM like a little bit of like, uh, yes. Being there, but also pulling back a little bit and, and making sure you don't take up all the space in the room and it's all about you and your uniquenesses and sort of your, your unique needs and sort of your, your, your unique perspectives, because it might come as a surprise, you know, especially, you know, somethings depending on how great your feeling about yourself, other people are also unique and they also have unique perspectives and they also have unique place that they're coming from, and they also want to contribute those unique things. Right. And so like leaving some space, leaving some oxygen in the room and, you know, and again, not to stereotype, definitely not to stereotype or to generalize, but sometimes we, as a people can take up a lot of the air in the room and to, and to let others have some of the air to breathe and to speak as important. Leon (36:35): My coworkers who are listening to this podcast are probably nodding. So, so ferociously that they're going to get, put a Crick in their neck. They require a neck brace after they're done Yechiel (36:46): I'm in a different situation. Of course, I work in the States and New York, um, and having been on the receiving end of workplace proselytization. And like I said, Jews specifically do not like proselytizing. I try not to have specific religious conversations at work other than with the few other religious Jewish coworkers I have. Um, of course when it comes to like things that will affect my work, I'll have those conversations up front, you know, things like Shabbat or kosher lunches or things like that. So, you know, I'll definitely speak up. And actually there's a whole chapter in the book. Um, your guide to working with your observant coworker, which I had a lot of fun writing. I wrote it when I switched teams and had to have all those conversations over again and decided that it would be helpful for others. Um, but conversations around that go beyond that. It's like the kind of conversations that we have in Torah and tech that I try not to bring up at work as much as possible. And in that sense, like you said, the newsletter and then the book we're away for me to express that part of myself, which I really enjoyed, Ben (37:49): You know, there's a larger conversation to be had here as well, that sort of transcends the workplace. So I just recall a couple of incidents where, uh, on the speaking circuit in conferences, and you would get some guidelines about what to say what not to say, how to, how to speak in the most successful ways. And all the advice overwhelmingly was incredibly on point was incredibly helpful and I think was, uh, necessary to make sure the space was maximally, welcoming, and accessible to a diversity of people from all backgrounds... Except when it comes to people with religious sensibilities. And I would actually add to that religious slash cultural sensibilities because, you know, coming again, uh, from Israel, uh, there's things like, so one of the guidelines to concretize, what I'm saying, uh, from one conference in particular was trying if you make a mistake or you're trying to say something that you should avoid something, don't use the oft-repeated term of like, God forbid, God forbid you should do that because there might people in the room who don't believe in God, and that could offend them to say, God forbid. And so whether one is a religious or not in Israel, that is one of most common expressions amongst everyone in the country. Even if the die hard, most ardent atheists will say, God forbid, it just it's part of the lexicon. It's just part of the cultural sort of dichotomy. So you're trying to get maximum welcoming as possible, but in doing so, you're not thinking about, or you're not at all elevating as part of the consideration, those people who come from either religious backgrounds or come from countries that are not Western European countries and, and how to think about that, how to actually make space. And, you know, I heard this by the way, from a colleague of mine, a previous former colleague of mine who comes from very different backgrounds, you know, from a Muslim background and she's an amazing person. And she often talks about that as well, about how, yes, maximally diverse places means there's maximum diverse or Western Europeans and, and, and, you know, Northeastern Americans. And what about everyone else in the world? Like from North Africa or from the middle East, or from Asia who are not Western Europeans or North Eastern Americans and, you know, what do you, what do you do about that and how do you, and how do you, uh, raise up the diversity and the ability for all people to come to this space, even if they're not, um, German or French or British. Leon (40:16): So this has been an amazing conversation. There's a lot more, I think we can go into with everything hope. Uh, hopefully I'll have a chance to have you back and talk about specific chapters, but before we wrap up, uh, one more opportunity for shameless book promotion, where again, now that we've heard about it and we are champing at the bit, and we can't live another minute without this book in our lives, where can we find it? Yechiel (40:37): Um, so yeah, so, like I said, in the beginning, um, you can buy it on Amazon and Barnes and Noble, uh, on your Kindle, on your Nook, on any, on most other retailers. Um, what I forgot the first time around was that if you do not live in North America or in a primarily English speaking country, a Book Repository, I'm told by Ben, is the go-to and it's on there too. Uh, we will have all those links in the show notes. Um, and of course you can also go to TorahandTech.Dev to order the book and also to sign up for the newsletter. So you can get a sneak preview of volume two, which will be coming out in about a half a year. Ben (41:13): Yes. Leon (41:14): Not only can you, you ought to, you should, Ben (41:17): You're encouraged to, and you get a ToraandTech.dev. You can find, uh, the table of contents. So you get a sense what's in the book and on Amazon and the other retailers you'll find sample chapters as well. So you can really get a fuller idea of what it's like. And that website as Yechiel mentioned his Book Depository, which if you're living anywhere in the world where English books are harder to come by, it's a great place to go to get your English books. You might not get them for a few months, but you can order them. And eventually they get shipped to you. Josh (41:50): Thanks for making time for us this week, to hear more of Technically Religious, visit our website, http://technicallyreligious.com, where you can find our other episodes, leave us ideas for future discussions and connect with us on social media. Leon (42:04): Ugh! We still need a tagline for this episode. Ben (42:06): Can we just go with "Buy our Book? Yechiel (42:08): I guess that works for me.

How would you change your digital marketing spend if you knew with 100% certainty what was driving results? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Joel Maldonado of Path Interactive talks about the attribution modeling work that won Path Interactive the first ever Google Display Innovation Award.  Joel and the team at Path Interactive were working with their client iCIMS to improve the company's ability to understand the performance of its marketing channels, and as part of the project, they built a custom attribution model that tied various software programs iCIMS was using to Google. Using the model, they were able to determine that Google display advertising was actually driving 7x more results than they originally thought. Based on this data, the company increased its spend on Google ads and in conjunction with that, its marketing results. In this episode, Joel breaks down exactly how Path Interactive was able to construct an attribution model that gave iCIMS complete clarity ab out what was driving its marketing results, and showcases why it's so important to get attribution right. Check out the full episode to learn more. Resources from this episode: Check out the Path Interactive website Connect with Joel on LinkedIn Transcript Kathleen (00:01): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host, Kathleen Booth. And this week, my guest is Joel Maldonado, who is the Acquisition and Growth Lead for Digital Media at Path Interactive. Welcome Joel, how are you? Joel (00:25): Doing well? How are you? Kathleen (00:26): I'm great. I'm really excited to chat with you. And before we get started, could you tell my listeners a little bit about yourself? What's your background? What do you do at Path and what does the company do? Joel (00:41): Sure. So I'm Joel. My background is I, I I've, I've been in the industry since 2011. So nearly a decade, which makes me feel old. But I went to school at Villanova University. So out of Philly, and kind of moved to New York immediately after, and I've been in the marketing industry ever since. I started working my career in a couple, a couple of startups, Target Spot and My Supermarket. And since 2013, I've been lucky enough to be at Path Interactive for the past seven years. And really, what we do is we're a full service digital agency. So we manage paid media campaigns. We have an SEO service channel. We also have an analytics team that does a lot of like pixel implementation, reporting infrastructure, custom integrations, which we might get into some of that today, as well as conversion rate optimizations. Joel (01:38): We have a creative team that kind of does a couple of functions. They design and build websites, and they also really work as our in house creative to support any media campaigns or social engagements that we have going on. So its really just kind of across the board, a full service digital agency. We also do video production. So kind of covering all of our bases there at Path Interactive. I kind of wear a couple hats. So I am on the paid media team or service channel at Path. So I kind of lead my own team and have my own book of business and clients that I manage and those relationships and those budgets on a monthly basis. But I'm also, I also sit on the leadership team at Path, which really for us, that's more about really guiding the strategic vision of the company over the next couple of years, as well as trying to make sure that we continue to make Path Interactive a better place to work for our employees. So that's something that we do on an ongoing basis every two weeks to really hammer home those two goals. Kathleen (02:49): That's great. And, and I got connected with you because you were doing paid media work for a friend of mine who's head of marketing for a company down in Florida, and she was just so impressed by the work you had done. So immediately I thought, I've got to talk to this guy. That's how I find a lot of my guests, is just hearing about the great work that they're doing, you know, and it's interesting. So you're on the paid media side and within paid media, there's obviously so many different channels. But then the company also does, as you said, all kinds of different things like websites and video and lead generation campaigns, et cetera. You know, one of the, I feel like one of the holy grails for marketers is attribution. At the end of the day, being able to report to the rest of the company, you know, how the dollars they're spending and how the activities they're engaged in are translating into revenue, but it's such a hard problem to solve, especially when you've got activities in all these different areas. And so I know you've done some work around figuring out attribution and you guys have actually won some awards for the work you've done in that area. Is that right? Joel (03:59): Yeah, absolutely. So, and I think it was back 2017 or 2018, we won the very first Google Display Innovation Award for work we've done with iCIMS which is basically, they're a talent acquisition SaaS software company based out of New Jersey. And it's been a company that's grown a lot over the years. And they, they, they handle kind of a few different things within the talent acquisition space. Most of what they do is recruiting, but they also do what's called kind of recruitment marketing. And they, they had some acquisitions along the way. So, so now they have kind of extensions of, of some of their recruiting and talent acquisition products and services. So it's, it's definitely an interesting company that's, you know, they're based in technology. So they kind of understand the need for using technology to not just grow your company, but also improve your products. So I think it was, it made sense that we're able to work closely with them to kind of grow their, their customer base and their marketing budgets. Kathleen (05:04): So can you tell me a little bit about kind of the challenge they came to you with and, and what was the work that you did for them? Joel (05:12): Yeah, so the challenge with iCIMS, what we've been working with them for, I want to say six to seven years now. So they have been a long time client. When we started with them, they, they wanted to kind of grow their overall customer base but they were very focused in, on kind of last click attribution and, and really judging everything that they do based on last click attribution. And at the time they did have a sizeable display budget and based on kind of the current metrics that they were dealing with they, they kind of saw that display was, was almost this kind of wasteful spend. It didn't really lead to opportunities, which is really the way they grow their businesses is through opportunities. And based on their technology and their measurement capabilities at the time, what their numbers were, what they were telling them was that their display spend was, was unprofitable or, or was. So the challenge for us was to, to really understand what was happening with their display spend and, and understand if any of it was impactful and, and how it was impacting some of their search budget or some of their other marketing channels. Joel (06:32): So we knew that we needed to really get better measurement tools in place and better attribution in place to understand how to tweak their display budgets and tactics to really grow their business. Does that make sense? Kathleen (06:46): How did you go about doing that? And, and I mean, what, I guess, if you could get into also the tech stack behind it and let's get into all the gory details. Joel (06:56): Absolutely. Yeah. So we started by building out our own custom integrations. So we have a few tools that we use depending on kind of what our client's needs are. So one of those is Marin software, which is a bid management tool. So we were able to build an integration from the client's CRM, which is Salesforce in this case, to Marin software, which was our bid management tool. So what we did there, was we essentially created a framework where anyone that gets to the client's website is given sort of this unique identifier. It's something that's not PII or personal information, its just, you know, an alpha numeric code or a number that's on there. And what we do with that is, when someone is assigned that number, as soon as they get to the site, when they fill out a lead capture form, we have some hidden fields and some technology behind the lead capture form that will essentially record that number. Joel (08:01): And what that does is, you know, let's say they have Pardot or a HubSpot which, which is what powers their forms, that number will kind of follow them along the sales cycle at all of the different stages. And when it gets to any particular milestone that's important to us, such as opportunity stage, that information is sent from Salesforce back to our Marin software so that we can see from, you know, whether it's a channel level all the way down to the creative and keyword level, what types of creatives, keywords or tactics are really driving opportunities. And that, that was kind of like a phase one of, of how we really started to, to fine tune and grow their customer base. Now, the challenges with this piece was that you know, at, at that time, everything was still a click based model, right? Joel (08:57): So you know, Marin's pixels and things like that, they, they really record all activity on the website, but it's all click based activity. So from there, once we were able to really fine tune their, their search budgets and their display budgets a little bit better from a last click standpoint, but more so less on what drives front end leads or lead captures and really emphasize on what drives opportunities. Then we really start to get an understanding of, of kind of what works on a last click basis. But we knew that, you know, display was still something that, that we needed to tackle and get underneath. And we knew that display is not just going to have an impact on your advertising from a click based standpoint. It's also going to have value from an impression based standpoint where people are seeing those ads and, you know, they visit the website you have through paid search, organic search or even direct. Joel (09:53): And so display really wasn't getting credit for, for some of that. So we still had to find a way to, to understand more of the display side. And, and, you know, the limitations of that first integration weren't gonna allow us to do that. So we started looking elsewhere and we landed on using Google analytics to be able to, to try to tie back impressions to all of that, all that performance. So we kind of use the same methodology in terms of assigning this alphanumeric number to anyone that visits the website and, and using Salesforce to communicate that back to another system. And when we integrated that process with Google analytics, with Google Analytics 360, you are able to see not just click based interactions, but also impression based interactions and how that influences other channels throughout the entire conversion funnel. So, you know, we, we basically essentially created a second custom integration where we upload a, what we call offline data, which is just data that comes from Salesforce, and what happens to someone who reaches a critical milestone or, or stage such as opportunity. And we would load that back into Google analytics, again, marrying the marketing data with the CRM data. And that's when we really started to understand how our displacement was influencing our search span and even organic channels, email, and all the other channels. Yeah. Kathleen (11:28): I have so many questions. I guess the first one is, all of this starts with this unique identifier, from what I understand. So I get the concept of, like, for example, I use HubSpot, and if somebody comes to the site, they fill out a form. I understand the concept of having a hidden field that they don't see, but that you've prepopulated if you will. So when they submit the form, that goes into their contact record. But how are you generating that random number for that field? Joel (12:03): Yeah. So in the past, you know, we kind of just created our own using some, some code and logic. Most recently we've found it's been more efficient to use, what's called a GA Client ID or Client ID. So Google analytics essentially does the same, same thing. You know, when someone gets to the website, they actually try to assign an alpha numeric number so that they can you know, tie back all of these sessions and user behavior through analytics. So we just started to take you back off of, off of that and really use that as a form of tying everything back together. Kathleen (12:40): So is, is the only way to connect those two things like let's say HubSpot and that Google Analytics unique identifier, the only way to do that through a custom integration, or are there any out of the box tools? Joel (12:53): I did, I don't believe there's any out of the box tools that, that I know of. You know, if you think about Google ads that Google ads has like auto tagging, which they use a what's called a GCLID or a Google Click ID, and essentially the very similar alphanumeric number that Google Analytics knows how to kind of decode that and translate that into campaign creatives and keywords and things like that. But our integrations don't just work in the Google universe. They, they work outside of that which, which I think is very beneficial. Kathleen (13:29): So basically anybody coming through from Safari or Firefox or any of any of the different browsers would, you'd be able to accomplish this. Joel (13:42): Yeah, so we, we have the same information for Google as we do Bing, which, most of what we do for iCIMS is, is in Google and Microsoft ads interfaces. But essentially, you can adapt this to Facebook or LinkedIn and other things. And we also get data on their organic search behavior and what they're doing with email and things like that. Kathleen (14:05): So you assign the unique identifier, which basically tells you from the first conversion you're able to identify, okay, this is, this is that particular unique visitor. And then that identifier, if you have a good Google Analytics set up and marketing automation set up that can carry through to all their different activities on the site. So you mentioned click and impression, and I want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly, because this is not my area of expertise. So I may ask some dumb questions. Like, as a HubSpot user, I know that HubSpot will cookie, as soon as they fill out the form, they're going to get cookied. And so HubSpot will, will follow everything they do on the site. But when you say you're tracking impressions, does that mean you're, you're tracking impressions of the ads and marrying that with impression data from the website? Joel (14:59): So it's not more, it's that impression data, well, I guess more so you're talking about like the visit visitation data from the website. So what with the Google Analytics 360, if you're running Google Display Network and, you know, your display budget through that interface, because the Google ecosystem that will communicate to Google Analytics, if those products are linked together. So if Google ads is linked up with Google Analytics and so even before someone visits the website, you're getting that, that impression data right now, when someone actually visit the website, we're getting that client ID and passing it through. And then marrying that back into Marin in Google Analytics so that we can see okay, this, these opportunities began within with a display impression. They may have converted somewhere else, like direct or paid search, even branded paid search. But it all started with a display impression. Kathleen (16:02): Wow. And so is the only reason that you're able to tie this together in a completely holistic way that is, is it because you're using that Google Analytics identifier and carrying that through all the way, and that's why you can marry everything they do before they get to the site with what they do on the site, as well as what they do after they leave the site. Joel (16:25): Yeah. The, the identifier is definitely the key piece. And even if it's not, you know, within the Google interface you should you'll with that identifier, you'll be able to tie back probably the extra piece where if you're running your display advertising through Google, then you'll also get the impression data, which is going to be helpful. Kathleen (16:49): Wow. So this is like crazy amazing for marketers, because it sounds like you're able to really see every single touch that you have with this person. But I imagine for somebody who's listening, it would might be kind of creepy for a customer to know that a company can see all of that. Joel (17:15): Yeah, definitely the, the kind of the age that we're living in. But it's, it's critical for marketers to, to and advertisers to understand particularly around their, their display budgets and how that is influencing other things. I forget, I think it was Brad Wanamaker who said, you know, like 50% of my ad budget is wasted. I just don't know which half. So this is something that really allows us to understand what half or whatever the percentage is, is wasteful, so that we can really move that budget and reallocate to things that we know are working and driving opportunity value. Kathleen (17:56): So you set this all up, you have all the data coming in. I'm really curious to know what you learned. Like, were there any big surprises that came out of the data? Joel (18:07): Hmm. Yeah, absolutely. So if you look at only a click based model about only 4% of opportunities are given credit to display but with, with this revamped attribution model, we actually saw that about a third, a third, really 33% of opportunities contained display impression, somewhere along that conversion path. And, and at least a quarter of those, 25% actually began with a display impression. So we understood that display has incredible value, and that's kind of how we were able to, to grow their budgets and bring in more leads, bring in more opportunities and essentially help them grow their business. Kathleen (18:56): So am I right? That, that display actually accounted for somewhere between four and six times, the opportunities that you were originally thinking it accounted for based on the initial dataset? Joel (19:11): Right? It's like seven and a half. Kathleen (19:14): Wow. Joel (19:14): A five X increase from what we thought and sort of a, a good cycle. And you get some momentum from that because once you understand the parts of display that are driving those opportunities, you can continue to reinvest and re funnel, kind of hitting on all gears there. Kathleen (19:39): So did that cause them to change their budgets? I would. I mean, if it were me, I would think I'd want to increase my budgets Joel (19:50): Kathleen, we'll see increases of anywhere from 25 to 35% year over year in terms of, you know, from where we started to three, four years later. Kathleen (20:03): Wow. That's amazing. So that, that's the project correct? That you won the award from Google for? Joel (20:13): Yeah, absolutely. Kathleen (20:17): So is that, that obviously required a certain amount of custom coding in order to put in place. And, and somebody who has the, either the internal resources to be able to do that, or, you know, can work with an agency, could replicate that kind of of a setup. But do you have any advice for somebody that maybe doesn't have access to that, like as, are there other ways of improving attribution that are, that maybe are a little bit simpler or more DIY? Joel (20:49): Yeah. So with iCIMS, we actually use three different integrations. Two are custom built. One was the first one that I talked about, which was Marin. So Google ads has had a Salesforce integration for probably maybe two to three years now. And, and it's definitely evolved over that time period. So it is a lot easier nowadays to integrate your, your Google ads in a way that doesn't take a ton of development work. Probably just, you know, five to 10 new hours of, of development work as far as like coding and things like that, to take your Google click ID and make sure that gets assigned in a hidden field to all the contacts and things like that. And to be communicated back to Google ads. And so, you know, if your main, if your main, a driver of performance or your main source of budget is Google ads that's kind of a no brainer to do well. If you're, if you know, CRM, Salesforce is your CRM and you want to get some milestone data based on kind of what you're seeing now, that is still a last click model or, or I should say a click based model. So you're not necessarily going to get the impression value, but at least you'll, you'll understand pretty easily what the opportunity value is of whatever you're, you're managing and Google ads Kathleen (22:39): That is so fascinating. You know, and how, if somebody was to come to you guys and say, I want to set this up for myself for my own marketing, is that, you know, how long does that take to get set up? Is it, I, and I, I won't say how much does it cost, but like, can you give me an order of magnitude? Is this something that's accessible to most companies or is it crazy expensive to do? Joel (23:02): Yeah, I think it is accessible to most companies. What we typically do is a lot of these integrations have just so many different factors based on what your tech stack is and your sales cycle and how everything works. So we typically start with, you know, what kind of technology do you use? How does your sales process work? We want to find out as much information as possible about sort of, you know, how your business operates and what your, your, your sales funnel looks like. And then we start to put the pieces together of, all right, you know, maybe you don't need this level of sophistication. You just need something that's a little bit more standard and XYZ is going to work for you. So there's going to be things that, that you don't need. There's going to be things that, that you might need, or maybe you, you kind of build it into a three year plan of our, I need this level of sophisticated laid out. So that in year three, I have you know, more insight into what could be more innovative tactics that we'll be able to do. But I just can't tackle that right now. So it definitely you want to understand kind of what your situation is and plan around that. Kathleen (24:28): That's so interesting. All right, switching gears. I have two questions I always ask my audience or my guests. And I'm curious to know what you have to say. The first one is, we're all about inbound marketing on this podcast. Is there a particular company or individual that you have seen, that's really killing it with inbound marketing right now? Joel (24:54): Yeah actually, I mean, to me, the first one when that comes to mind is iCIMs. I think they, they've been a great client and partner for us and in terms of the things that we've wanted to, to implement it and integrate and kind of what our vision was. So they've always, they've always been kind of willing to, to innovate and even outside of what we do, they have a good sales process and having good measurement and things like that. Mmm. And their, their level of sophistication has definitely evolved over the years. So with these integrations, we actually get down to some of the different company size segments that are important to them. So they have kind of company or sometimes different industries. And with all this technology, we've been able to not just look at this one big bucket and say, all right we're driving X amount of overall opportunities, but now we're to the level of looking at opportunities based on company size and industry and all these different factors that impact the growth of their business. So for, for them to kind of really understand that and, and work with us to, to implement those mechanisms, to be able to see that on all of that information on such a granular level to really plan out, you know, what their growth, that's kind of why I would think iCIMS is pretty much the first company that comes to mind. Kathleen (26:29): I'll definitely have to check them out. And then the second question is, digital marketing is changing so quickly. And marketers, whenever I talk to them, they're always saying I can't keep up. There's so much new stuff. So how do you personally keep yourself educated and kind of on the cutting edge of all of this? Joel (26:48): Yeah. I mean, there's a few publications that I read such as like Search Engine Land, PPC Hero, things like that. I'm also interested in SEO, you know, which is not my expertise, but I'm curious. So just learning about it in general. So at Path, we have a pretty great SEO lead, her name is Lily Ray. She's always out there speaking. She's very active on Twitter, speaks at a lot of conferences and things like that. So I kind of look to her for, for a lot of SEO specific information. But I think at the end of the day you know, we best learn by, by doing so if, if you're in the platforms every day and really trying to understand how they work, I think over time you get a better understanding of how, how you can innovate from what you have available to you. Joel (27:49): And I always think it's important, especially in today's world, like 2020 has been the craziest time. If you're a company that is innovating and, and testing new things they're, they're, they're not going to be wasted and that will soften the impact of, of something like a pandemic or you know, all of the, the sort of like the racial justice protests and things that are going on in the world. Like, there's, there's going to be ways that like no one, no one can plan or prepare for something this crazy to happen. But I think if you always are testing and innovating you'll be able to, to find these, these little trinkets of, of areas that are gonna work well for you, because what we've found as marketers is things are always going to change what you've relied on as your bread and butter in the past, historically, who knows if that's going to be available next year. So why not test now and, and really future-proof and build that infrastructure for something that you might need to pivot to before you actually need to do it. Kathleen (29:00): Yeah, that's a great point. And it has been just an insane year, from wildfires in Australia to pandemics all over the world, to racial you know, protesting, to murder hornets. It's just crazy. So you can't plan for any of that. Joel (29:19): Right. And even now, you know, it was this July, Facebook boycott, that's going to impact potentially a lot of businesses, especially if the majority of your, your marketing spend is on Facebook. So it's going to be really tough, challenging if, if you know, a lot of advertisers boycott, where do you put budget and how do you continue to grow your business without a source of, of inventory that potentially was one of your biggest sources? Kathleen (29:52): Yeah, absolutely. Well, this is so fascinating. If somebody wants to learn more about what you're talking about, or check out some information on the campaign that led you to the award, or connect with you and ask a question, what's the best way for them to connect with you online? Joel (30:09): Yeah. So I'm on LinkedIn. The Path Interactive website does have a case study kind of detailing and really streamlining the conversation that we had today about iCIMS. So that's kind of on our website you know, but feel free to visit pathinteractive.com and go fill out a lead form and get in touch with one of our salespeople. So we can talk about how to partner and improve your business. Kathleen (30:37): Awesome. Well, I will put all those links in the show notes, and if you're listening and you learned something new, or like what you heard, I would love it if you would head to Apple Podcasts and leave the podcast a five star review so that other people can find us and hear great content, like the stuff that Joel is sharing. And of course, if you know somebody else doing kick ass inbound marketing work, tweet me at @workmommywork because I would love to interview them. That's it for this week. Thank you so much, Joel. Joel (31:07): Absolutely. Appreciate it.

Hi everybody. Thank you so much for being here today. I am so excited to introduce you to the owner of The College Investor. His name is Robert Farrington. He's with us today. Robert, you want to say hello? Robert Hey Carey and Everyone, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. Cool. And you're, you're out in sunny, Southern California. I'm here in Atlanta. So, um, it's nice place to be during this time of year, especially. No, it's great. I I'm blessed to be able to be here. Awesome. Well, tell us a little about yourself and how you got started with your company, the college investor. Definitely. So I started the college investor, honestly, as a side hustle. When I was finishing college, I had always been passionate about making money investing and, uh, you know, I wanted to share my random thoughts on the topic with people. And I, you know, I really love technology and websites and I saw some other bloggers starting and I was like, you know, I can, I can start a blog and share my thoughts as well. And so that's honestly how it started over 10 years ago now at this point in time. And it's just really grown into a full on, uh, you know, media company at this point in time. But it started just as me wanting to share my random thoughts and kind of evolved quite a bit from there. Wow. That's amazing. And are your customers teenagers, college students, parents? Can you tell us a little bit about who, who, um, you help? Yeah, Definitely. So I started really just wanting to share my thoughts mostly with young adults, right. But at this point in time, I would say most of the people we help are anywhere from college graduates to families, to people approaching retirement. Um, you know, we don't get too many young people and we don't get too many retirees, but everyone in the middle there, um, seems to be who we help. And sadly, I think that kind of reflects more on how who's dealing with student loan debt. Who's trying to get started in life. Who's trying to get investing than anything else. So, um, yeah, we have a really broad range of people we help. That's awesome. Such a needed thing. And I don't think people really know where to turn. So your blog helps with discovery online. Right? And that's it? I mean, So student loans is one of our bread and butter topics and, uh, it's hard because there are so many options out there and there are so few tools out there to help people and the tools that we have, like they don't, people don't trust them because it's like our loan servicers, and they're the ones that are part of the problem. And so, you know, it's really hard for people to get an independent resource, to help them navigate their student loan debt. Um, and then in turn, you know, start building wealth and navigating personal finance because, you know, sadly it's not something that's usually taught in school and, you know, a lot of people's role models might not have been the best in terms of showing them how to do it. That's so true. Yeah. I've heard that, like kids have to move home after college and, um, gosh, with the, with that pandemic now it's even harder to find a job. So can you tell us yeah. What, what services do you provide and can, can you kind of take us through like the buying journey online? Like where did they discover you and kind of, how does it go from there with the various interactions? Yeah, definitely. So, I mean, we're a traditional media site. So the services we really provide are just trying to provide the best in depth, comprehensive knowledge that you can have when it comes to personal finance topics. Um, we do a broad range of editorial content. We also review as many products and services as we can find to give people an honest opinion on, you know, what's legit, what's not legit, what's the best, what's not the best. Um, you know, we do have some products and services as well. We have lone buddy, which is our DIY student loan software. You can put all your information in and, you know, it'll tell you the best outcome for your student loans. Um, but really like, I really want to educate and that's really the bread and butter of what the college investor is. It's designed to educate people on their student loans on their money. And, you know, we really try to be top notch and search we're on social or on video or on audio because I'm also a big believer in meeting people where they're at. And, uh, you know, if people really listen to podcasts, like listen to this show, right? Like they're listening to audio, so can we connect with them there? But you know, there's also a good contingent of people that love YouTube and love videos. So how do we connect with them there? And then of course there's always the traditional reading and searching for things on Google and we want to connect with them there as well. Yeah. Awesome. You sound really savvy like, because you've been and also have been in business for 10 years. That's funny. Yeah. You know, it's, it's hard. I mean, we didn't start there though. I think it's important to, if you're starting out like pick one lane and then iterate as you go forward, because it's a lot of work too. That's right. And you really want to listen to your customers and find out what they're needing and kind of pivot from there. Would you say you're like, are you finding that people are having a harder time now managing their college debt and earning income? Like have you shifted at all since COVID has hit Oh yes. A hundred percent. So it's sad because, you know, there's just topics now that we didn't touch on until now. So unemployment stimulus checks, uh, how to navigate some of the small business loan programs. Um, what's out there for side hustlers, people that were driving for Uber and door dash. How did that, how does that work in the new unemployment system? Um, and these are topics that historically, I mean, in 10 years, we've never really had to dive in and talk about, and, you know, people don't really care so much about other things when they're like, I don't have a job today and I don't know when I'm going to be working again, like what can I do today? And so it's really been important for us to put out the best content we can as fast as we can, but it's also been challenging because I mean, it's been a fire hose of information coming out of Washington DC. And it seems like these programs are changing and shifting and, you know, new proposals are coming out all the time. And so there's also a ton of misinformation out there. And so for us, it's really cutting through all that misinformation, trying to get people what's accurate and timely, um, so that they can, you know, help themselves today. Yeah. That's, that's really so important. And also with mental health now that, you know, they, the reports are saying that mental health in the world really is really getting worse and worse because of the challenges that people have financially, you know, with the relationships that might not be so great at home and stuff like that. So I would think like you providing support and some reassurance that there is a way there are there answers, you know, would probably help a lot of people. Do you have, do you have any stories? I know that's not like something we necessarily talked about, but I was just wondering if any good stories or examples? I mean, it's, it is sad. I do see a lot of it. I mean, sadly, one of the things that has increased in trending a lot is suicide and student loan debt. And a lot of people see that as the option. And it is really heartbreaking because there's a lot of options out there that is definitely not a good option. And, but people don't know how to navigate it. And when people are in such desperate straights and there's not a lot of answers out there and there's definitely no one to help you. And now in this remote day and age where like, you can't necessarily have like someone with you, like it's all virtual, it's even more challenging. So it is definitely challenging. It's sometimes sad to see, but that's why we also try to be there is that source of education be there as those tools and resources so that hopefully people find the answer before it's too late. Yes.... Do you have a Facebook group? I know I went on all your social media. You're on a lot of different platforms. Do you, do you do help people connect with each other? So they don't feel like they're alone?  We Do have a large Facebook group, ....probably about 24,000 people in it.  you know, I keep it pretty vague cause it's, it's the investing and personal finance Facebook group and it's all for people that are interested in money topics. And so yeah, we do find a lot of connection and things in there, but it's hard because, you know, it runs the gambit of people's personal financial situations. I mean, you have to have so many people and so many diverse perspectives that even in a Facebook group type setting, it's hard to foster connections. And then the other challenge with money topics is that there's a lot of people that prey on other people, insurance salesman or, you know, unscrupulous financial planner. And so sometimes when people do open up, I mean, they just get unsolicited, you know, direct messages and, and things. And you know, so it's, it's very challenging to, you know, make sure people connect, but you know, you have to remember you're online and people try to take advantage of that as well. I hadn't thought of that. That's so true. And then it's just the main maintaining it, like, and making sure as the owner of the group that you like, see if there's any inappropriate comments and stuff like that. Right. Yes. So, I mean, we're very vigilant. We're very vigilant on it.  We do. We have a good moderator team and, you know, we have all the Facebook alerts set up. So when people comment certain things it flags right away, but where they get around it is through those direct messages. So I would say like every two weeks we have to remind our group, if you get an unsolicited direct message, please let the moderator team know so we can take action and remove it. And I've been known to publicly shame some of these unscrupulous insurance salesman. I'll reach out to their companies and organizations and say Hey, you need to follow up with this individual.... Who's violating your company, social media policy, and you need to follow up because it drives me nuts. Especially I rag on insurance people a lot, but it really usually is insurance salesmen, not financial planners. And they do not have the best interests of you at heart. They are trying to sell you on a product that you probably don't need. And it drives me nuts. Yeah. Well, I have a friend that is in that industry and she said that, and this isn't true for all., but she said that the management was still kind of pushing the salespeople as if it weren't like COVID and like just like pushing them so hard. And so you sometimes kind of wonder like how much of is coming from the leadership and doing the right thing for the customer and having the salespeople be the, the interacting face and yeah, it can, it can be so easy online and can be kind of dangerous to people if they're in a vulnerable situation as to what's real, what's not real, what should I pay attention to?  Yeah, my rule of thumb though, is, you know, no one in this world is going to care more about your money than you. So always go into every conversation with that in mind, you know, anyone that's out there trying to help you probably isn't going to care as much as you do because they have no reason to.  Yes!  And start young and they're always there. Time is on your side when you're younger, I can attest to that. So what, what are some of the most important things you think that the younger generations need to know about personal finance? I think the biggest thing for me is that it starts with getting organized and this might sound counterintuitive to like a personal finance conversation. But honestly, there's just so many moving parts today to everyone's money. Right? You have different incomes, you got side hustle, income, your job income, you have multiple accounts, probably got a bank account, a savings account. You got maybe a 401k. Maybe you have an IRA. And then like you have a bunch of expenses. You might have a credit card or a debit card and you're charging. So it starts with just getting organized with your money. And the other thing that's hard about this is everyone's different. So like I'm an app guy, right? So I like to have my finances on an app on my phone. And that's where I'm most comfortable, but I'm not everybody. Some people really like Excel spreadsheets. Other people really like planners and pen and paper and writing stuff down on like a paper calendar. So the real thing is, is find whatever style works for you and get organized with your money because you can't make an informed decision about what to do. If you don't know where everything is, what's coming in, what's going out. Like, should you budget better? I don't know. Are you organized? Should you try to get a side hustle? Like, I don't know. Do you need to earn more money? Like if you're not organized, you can't make the next financial decision. Hm. Good point. Yeah. And just not putting it off, like, there are different types, like you said, it's individual and there's some different types of people and some people avoid, some people worry, some people don't, you know, they're so generous. They give, give all their money away to other people like theirs. Yes, totally. And if you put, if you don't know what's happening, like you can't even make the decision. And I, and I will tell you that in 10 years of working with people, helping people, talking to people that 99% of people that are struggling, it all goes back to this organization. And well, if I ask I'm like, well, like what's your budget look like I don't have one. Or, or like, what's the shortfall? Like, are you short a hundred bucks a month in your monthly expenses? Like where do you, what, what is it? And they couldn't tell me how much debt do you have? I don't know. When are you going to pay off that debt? I don't know. Um, you'd just be, it always starts with knowledge. Like if you get organized, you know, where everything is, then you can decide like maybe, maybe all you need to do is cut $50 off your monthly expenses and you will be in the black and you'll be rocking and rolling, and you can do that easily, but maybe there's a bigger gap here. Maybe it's a $500 gap. Maybe you need to look at getting a second job or a side hustle or asking for a raise at work. But like, we can't even figure that out if you don't have it all laid out and organized and know what's going on. Yes. So knowledge is power and reality as well. Like when you get organized in whatever way that is, like you said, it's a variety of different ways to get organized, but then you have it in front of you. And, you know, you have that knowledge which has power to move forward and then take steps that, you know, really help, help get to the next, next level and security financial stuff. Exactly. And that's the thing is, you know, personal finance is personal. Right. And so I can't tell you, I can't just say it's a blanket, one size fits, all thing. Like it definitely is a personal conversation And accountability. Would you say that, like your services kind of help people with any accountability at all? Or do you not really track that? Yes, we don't really track it because it's hard. I don't also want to get in the business of being the data collector. Um, you know, it is personal, right. And there's also a lot of laws and regulations and rules and other things around all that kind of stuff. Um, but really it's about, you know, getting organized, but then we can take the next steps and I love being there to guide out. Like, let's, let's talk about budgeting and let's talk about earning more. I'm a big believer of the earn more mindset, like, uh, you know, yeah. There's probably some fat, we can all cut from our budgets, but like, is there a way you can go out and side hustle and earn a little bit extra and then live a lifestyle you'd like to live more of instead of like really cutting down to nothing. I love that. That's huge right now, like on, on tiktok, do you, have you ever gone on ticktock ? I'm a fan of tiktok. We were really doubling down on tiktok and I follow a lot of the financial influencers and others and, I'm all about, I'm all about tictok! Speaker 1: (16:19)All right. Let's talk tick tack for a little bit then, because I actually have not touched on this yet in our series. And so this would be a great start since you're a fan. So how did you get on, when did you get on and kind of what, what is, what are you finding as far as like what people like? So, I mean, I've been, I've been on the platform since last fall, so probably about nine months now, but we didn't start creating content until earlier this year. I really just like consumed. I just consumed a lot of content seeing what was working, what's not working and I'm still figuring out I'm not by an expert by any means. But the one thing I love about tiktok is that even if you don't have a huge following on tiktok, your posts have a very good chance of going viral. If you're following trends and talking about interesting things and, or just being interesting. And so a lot of people think tic talk is like about dancing to music and, you know, yeah, that's a good chunk of it, maybe 50%, but I would say the other 50% is, you know, just people talking, being interesting, being funny, being entertaining in some way, shape or form. And, and for us on talking about money on Tech-Talk, it's the same concept. It's like, how do we make something short, sweet, interesting, and entertaining in a, you know, 15 to 60 second video. And so, you know, we try to use some of the music sometimes, or some of the trending themes, because some of them are kind of like jokes effectively, but you have to kind of know what's going on, on tiktok to follow the joke and you integrate your own concepts into it. And so I find it to be a lot of fun and you can go down a rabbit hole of watching tiktok videos for like an hour. And you're like, Oh my God, where'd my afternoon go?! For sure!  I've heard people say that they've gone even longer, like three, four hours. Yeah. And then sometimes like it just this morning, as a matter of fact, it was early and I love Italians. And, there's a Italian guy and his mother and they are so cute and funny and I'd realize, Oh, I haven't been on tiktok for a few days. Maybe I missed some of his, their videos. And so you can click on just like with Instagram y'all if you're not on tiktok yet is you can click on their bio, like ontheir name or whatever it shows their channel. And then you can go and see all of their posts just like Instagram. So I consumed like six or seven of their videos that I had missed,.... which, ticktock for business as something that's real, you can use hashtags, you can, like Robert was saying, do things that are trending, make it entertaining, also educational. So it's to attract the attention of, like Robert said earlier, where people are. so that's cool. And, and I think a lot of people have this misconception that tiktok is all teenagers. And, you know, there is a lot of teenagers on there, but you know, your content and your, whatever you are will attract your audience because there are over 60, there are a lot there's I think a parent's over 30 hashtag. Like there are a lot of adults on the platform as well. And there are so many different industries and niches, and here's a great example. Um, we're thinking about redoing our backyard and it's kind of like a dream board wishlist kind of thing right now. Right? Well, I'm scrolling on TechTalk and I found a local landscape designer on tiktok. I loved his work. I reached out to him and he's going to come out and we're going to talk about things. And so like, I don't know, result in any business, but when you're thinking about it for your business, whatever your business is, there is things on there that, I mean, your business should be on tick talk. If you want to connect with people that are engaged in that audience. And it's a huge audience. I mean, I don't know, you can kind of talk about all kinds of things. I see woodworking, I see a lot of construction. We're doing remodeling stuff. So maybe that's my feed right now. Right. But I see a lot of those kinds of trades showing up in my tiktok feed. It had, the algorithm definitely picks up and how you went about it is exactly what is recommended and what we recommend to get on the platform first and just start discovering what other people are posting and what people are doing, and kind of just get familiar with it. And, you know, if you start now, if, if you can make it relevant to your business and make it relevant to your customer is that, you know, it's going to benefit you a year or two years from now. And you can also share the videos on other platforms so you can save the videos and then post them in, on another platform. Do you ever do that, Robert? Oh, yeah. And I mean, that's the thing is like, if you're already kind of doing short format things, if you're on YouTube or Instagram using Instagram stories, like, I mean, it's like a natural repurpose bit and, uh, you know, you might as well be there for minimal extra effort, but, uh, you know, when you look at the growth of things, you know, tick talk is definitely on the growing end and you know, some of these other platforms are not growing as much anymore. And so, you know, it's get there early claim, your stake, be one of the early influencers in your space. And, you know, maybe it fails, but you will have learned something because I think video, however, its purpose is going to be around forever. So Absolutely. Yeah, I think that will happen was when stories came out, people got comfortable and then started really liking the short form. And, you know, you're just sitting, waiting for an appointment. So, you know, for them to call you from the lobby or whatever, and you can just real quickly go online, be entertained, discover something, learn something, whatever it is. And then, you know, we got used to that. And then now that tiktok's you can post a 15 second video or, or a 60 second video on tiktok. And,so yeah, we're at, and I love your enthusiasm about it, Robert. So before we wrap here, what other platforms are working well for you? Like you mentioned YouTube - what is your favorite, would you say? Or is it tiktok? Well, it's hard. I don't know, like my personal favorite social media platform right now is Reddit. I would say Reddit is my home base of not necessarily for my business, but as a personal social media consumer, I I'm a Redditer and I love it.  I think every business should be on Reddit. You should own your own subreddit. And I think you need to engage where your audience is. So the one thing about Reddit, right, is it's, it's, it's made up of subreddits, which are kind of akin to Facebook groups, right. Um, and there's groups on every single topic under the sun. And it's, I want to say that Reddit is, I am betting that within the next 12 to 18 months, Reddit is going to surpass Facebook. I think it's already like the now it's like, I think it's tied or just beat Instagram in terms of monthly visitors per month, uh, in terms of traffic. And so it's just, it's just continuing to grow. Whereas some of the other platforms are declining, but, uh, there's, your, your audience is on Reddit. You can subscribe to subreddits and you can become, you know, a voice on there and your things. And I just think it's, it's got such a better user interface. It provides a better curated content than it does for like Facebook and other things. So I am a huge Redditor. That is so interesting. I I've not heard anyone else say that. So I think that is just awesome. And it reminded me when you were saying that this weekend I Googled something and the answer was on Reddit. Yup. And that Reddit comes up in all the search results. And I would say that, you know, and granted it is my primary social media platform. But if you look at my social media referrals to my website read, it's usually fourth. I'm right there. You got the, you got Facebook, you got Pinterest, you got Twitter. And then read it, usually beats all the other ones. Um, and it's usually, it's very quality traffic because I'm talking about things that are related to what I'm doing. Right. And so it just all works out. Nice, great information. You, you seem so savvy. I love it. I'm so happy that you joined us today and I'm sure you inspired a lot of people. where can people find you, your website, social media, wherever you want to send people? Yeah, definitely. So our website is the college investor.com. If you like to listen to podcasts, we have the college investor audio show, and then we're on pretty much every social platform out there at the college investor. So whatever is your favorite, maybe you're not a Redditor like I am, but we're out there on pretty much everybody's social media platform. Yay. Awesome. Thank you so much, Robert. This was a thrill and I really appreciate your time and, hope you have a great rest of your week.

Catch up episode. Today we are testing a cohost; Alex joins us today for the first time. More has come out about the specifics of George Floyd and hey wouldn't you know it?! People are turning this once truly meaningful protest into a terrible excuse to cause more pain.

Serena Suh The whole pandemic impacting our economy and the restaurant industry is a big, big event.  But in the end, why is that so catastrophic is because of the ways that restaurant workers and the restaurant industry have not been given safety nets. And it's a bigger issue than the issue itself will not go away once the pandemic goes away. Right. And I think that this is a time when actually it's just an opportunity for us to see the underlying issue and immediate relief, such as advocacy, buying out and checking up on your friends.   Serena Suh Although things are very important, but there are some long term things that we should pay attention to and get to know, especially if people who for whom restaurants are a big part of our social life and what we like to enjoy.   INTRO On this episode of the Handle With Care podcast, COVID-19 edition, I am talking to Serena Suh.  Serena lives and works in the restaurant industry in Chicago.  Or at least she did until the coronavirus struck.  Serena’s story and perspective is important:  as a part of the restaurant industry, she gives voice to the stories of so many.  Her story is also important because she is an advocate for meaningful, structural change on behalf of restaurant workers.   Before we begin, I want to thank our sponsor, FullStack PEO.  How are you expressing care for your employees during this time of disruption?  As health is top of mind, FullStack can helping, especially if you are a small business owner.  FullStack PEO helps to manage your member benefits, releasing you to focus your attention on the other parts of running your business.   We are also sponsored by Handle with Care Consulting.  Workplace Empathy has never been as important on as wide of a scale as it is now.  Handle with Care Consulting offers trainings on compassion fatigue, how to create cultures of care, and communication coaching for downsizing.    Back to the podcast.  Serena loves living in Chicago   Serena Suh I love Chicago because it feels like a small town in a big city. So. In my experience, people smile at you. People ask you how you're doing. You can meet random people on public transportation, which I don't think is the case in a lot of other cities, architecturally beautiful.      Serena is also a photographer and a writer.  My first contact with Serena was through a compelling piece she published in Medium , which I read on Facebook.  I will include a link to the article in the show notes.  Serena is also making a documentary film about restaurant workers in Chicago.  She is an eloquent advocate for those affected by restaurant closures and, after reading her post, I knew I wanted her to share with you, the Handlw with Care listening audience.   Serena Suh And there are some, you know, collective struggles, and I think as someone who studied philosophy and anthropology, I can kind of see those. A bit clearer and clearer, maybe or maybe my attention just goes to some of the social or like social like inconsistencies or maybe, maybe some injustices that I see.   Serena Suh So I would love to see like reform in the industry or something I'm really passionate about. Especially regarding. Providing employee rights, some kind of standard of living for people.   After graduating from college, Serena went to work for a perfume compounder.  But she, ultimately, wanted to move in a direction that was in line with her dreams   - Serena Suh Being a chef was a dream since I was 10 years old. So I just ended up cold emailing a bunch of shops in Chicago and eventually one took me and I was like cooking at a restaurant in Chicago for about half a year before I joined a restaurant group. And I've been there since. OK. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes What is especially in the news cycle and at all of us are looking and seeing our neighborhood restaurants close for someone who has not worked like as a line chef?   - Liesel Mertes What, what is the what is the daily ness of that like? And is it what would eat? No, we're talking economics a lot.   - Liesel Mertes Is it hard to get by as a line chef? Are you living like day to day?   - Serena Suh Yeah, definitely. So like Cook, it's it's really interesting. They're. It is a skills job, so you get better with time and you do get gain more expertise on like, how do you do your job?.   - Serena Suh Well, and you learn a lot on the job. But. That doesn't really have to do anything with your pay. There's already a standard determine pay and it's basically sub minimum wage. So even if you go to like a Michelin star restaurant, most line cooks are getting just one or two dollars over minimum wage in the city of Chicago.   - Serena Suh I think the average hourly pay of line cooks is $14 an hour. And that varies with each restaurant group. Like am I allowed to mention specific restaurant groups? Sure. So, for example, Hog Salt is a big restaurant group in Chicago. They're paying their employees around $18 an hour on average. But that really depends on each restaurant group. Each restaurant in and with their capacities are. So mineshafts definitely are living paycheck to paycheck. For my experience. I don't know anyone who's living comfortably.   - Liesel Mertes So I imagine this is a particular blow to people who already were hanging on with a pretty thin margin.   - Serena Suh Definitely, definitely. They're, from my experience.   - Serena Suh When I was working as a line cook and wanting to become a chef. Part of why I. It was because I had too many too much student loans and I just couldn't. I just couldn't live paying student loans and paying rent and finding time even for like a coffee or finding an extra and got me over a cup of coffee a week.   - Serena Suh I just didn't see a future for myself in one if I continued on that route. I think it's similar for other cuts as well. A lot of folks I know have graduated from or universities and decided to pursue cooking or they want the culinary school. So we're all kind of in the same boat as a lot of other Americans. We all have a student that we all have bills to pay. So having no income definitely takes a toll on everyone in the industry.   - Liesel Mertes I want to hear more about that. Give me a little background you mentioned. This has been a dream since I was 10. For you, for other people who with these four year degrees of this culinary school background, what did you just love about being in the restaurant business? Tell me some of the joy for me. This is just great moments.   - Serena Suh Well, what I love about…this is a everyone and I don't want to romanticize or idealize the situation because there are some people who are in the industry because they have no other choice or no skills. But I think that in the best form, people and cooks and chefs that I've known really just love the art of hospitality and bringing people joy in the day to day. And I think there's something so humbling about that, that not my chefs have, have a lot of pride and like big egos, they're kind of known for that.   - Serena Suh But I think at the end of the day, they really do love feeding people and kind of wowing people and showing people a little bit of magic in their day to day. So, for instance, I have a story to tell. Yes, but.   - Serena Suh So, for instance, when I was working at the restaurant, it's a Michelin star restaurant. So we had it kind of felt like being in the military where every second mattered. And you were going against the clock constantly.   - Serena Suh And. You don't get time to like rest or time for yourself and you're always stressed.   - Serena Suh But during service, I could kind of interact with the guests sometimes because you would have to have a couple of minutes during service, especially on a slow day. And it was an open kitchen so I could turn around and talk to guests at the bar. And at the time, we had an orange give me a green almond sorbet, which is essentially a sorbet that was molded into like a like a circle and then had shaved green almonds on top with sugar twirls and saffron coated sugar.   - Serena Suh And it turned around. I asked one of the guests, like. How he like the desert and turns out that he was he grew up in Lebanon and green almonds are native or indigenous to the Mediterranean area. You saying like, wow, this like totally brought me back to my childhood because when I was younger, I used to eat green almonds off the trees with like salt with my grandparents and my parents. And this was just like a totally different way to experience green almonds.   - Serena Suh I thought this is like very meaningful to me. And I truly think that it's moments like that that chefs, like, love to elevate and recreate and bring to people. And I find it very. They just run. Yeah, just for a human perspective, I like respect people in hospitality so much because of that. But like without a lot of payoff. But they're willing to give so much of their time and their bodies and their creativity to others and to bringing those embody moments of connection.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. And what I hear in a really beautiful way. So, okay, we've had this. These reverberations throughout so many areas of society. Can you tell me? Like what? What did it look like?   I’d like to jump in and say that I recorded this a few weeks ago, but the story and impact is still so important, even if the timeline has shifted.    - Serena Suh Yeah. There's a huge number of people being affected. I mean, in the United States alone, there's fifteen point six million. I think it's the number that I thought today. People be employed in the restaurant industry and they're all being affected right now. So our company is just one of many, many like restaurant food in the United States and in Chicago and not even restaurant groups, but independent venues being affected. So, yeah. Quickly, just a couple days later, I started getting a bit worried.   - Serena Suh I started contacting my managers and asking like, hey, can I. Should I accept, expect a layoff so that I can know and be prepared.   - Serena Suh And even at the time, even three days before I got laid off, my manager was like, probably fine, I'll keep you updated. So it really was. Each day had a new kind of waterfall of events that none of us was prepared for. And then on Sunday, I think on the 15th.   - Serena Suh You got an email from our ownership saying this is the last thing that we want to do with very heavy, heavy hearts that we're going to furlough everyone in the company except just a few. And they're doing everything that they can right now. But.   - Serena Suh So was just in a matter of five days where it went from there working from home and then, OK, everyone pays getting cut. Everyone's hours are getting cut and then everyone's being furloughed. So no one's getting paid.   - Liesel Mertes What a tumultuous couple of days. I imagine that that was just a roller coaster of uncertainty. How has it felt in the aftermath? What are the things that are keeping you up at night?   - Serena Suh Yeah. Well, I think. I think definitely. For me personally, I'm less worried about myself, in the sense that I think I personally have a decent, a really awesome community that I can rely on. But. There are some people with like families, you know, a lot of people that I knew was in contact with in the restaurant group.   - Serena Suh I believe over half of the night could even be. A majority of the employees in the restaurant industry are over 35, so it means that it's not just like a transition or transition job for a lot of people. It's a career. It's their main means of income. So people with families work in the service industry. And it's not just like a recent college grad trying to pay rent. You know, it's people with medical bills and tuition and rent and all that stuff in content.   - Serena Suh So I really worry for those people, especially families, couples who work in the restaurant industry because they can't imagine. Losing both of both incomes in a matter of days and then having to worry about how you're going to support your family.   - Serena Suh And I also worry for people without. Skills to work other jobs. For instance, people who've always been in the culinary industry since they're like McSteamy, wonderful energy or maybe didn't go to court is going to know how to do anything else like those.   - Serena Suh Those people need help, like transitioning into different industries that they need. And I don't know if that's an option that that's an available resource right now. Oh, yeah.   - Liesel Mertes I hear the ripple effects into people's lives. And I think what you said is particularly a learning for me, because sometimes we can think, oh, yeah, you know, people they work in restaurants when they graduated from college or when they're getting their master's degree. But to put numbers to it and give a more realistic face to the people who are being affected.   - Liesel Mertes When you talk about your support system on a personal level, what has been particularly meaningful to you over the last two weeks as people have supported you and reached out in the midst of physical distancing?   - Serena Suh Definitely. All I think two things try me saying like, hey, I I've been seeing the news and what's going on in the restaurant industry. I'm so sorry. Please let me know. I can be here for you. That is enough for me. And I suddenly got. It kind of felt like I was standing in front of like an audience. And then I saw my friends and like I was able to put faces on to like who I could rely on at this time.   - Serena Suh So that was awesome. I've had friends straight up. Just send money. Money. And I didn't ask for it. I did a. I didn't tell anyone that I was financially struggling, but. People who were not this are not being affected by this and who knew that I was in the restaurant industry and I was expressing that like people in the industry is struggling, survive and then decided to act on it like that has been. Really, really touching.   - Serena Suh And I think that. Action is like the best way to help people right now. And to show that you're there for them, whether that's. Calling your representatives, they're a bunch of small business relief bills that are kind of on the line right now. You think that Illinois is due for one today?   - Liesel Mertes And yet, Serena, a little bit more because you've, you've thought on a personal level, but you've also published, we’ll link the article with this and done some thinking about on a structural level how to allocate support and in the midst of people sitting at home wondering what they should do.   - Liesel Mertes Let me give you a segue. Tell us more about some of the structural things that are going on.   - Serena Suh Yes. So as soon as the governor announced that all small businesses were going to be closed, at least for regular service, a bunch of chefs, chef owners in Chicago got together and kind of basically wrote a public letter to the governor asking for support in the form of a payroll tax. Give me to make sure that I got. What they send. Word for word. I doubt. So a large group of independent chefs in Chicago got together and they've asked for immediate support of emergency unemployment benefits to all hourly and salaried workers and to eliminate all payroll tax and to call for rent and loan abatements for workers impacted in the restaurant industry as well as restaurants themselves.   - Serena Suh That lowers an immediate emergency action, steps that restaurant owners have asked for, at least in Illinois.   As an update, restaurants are now specifically lobbying Congress for legislation to provide relief to their industry, especially after the stop-and-go, limited launch of the PPP Act.    - Serena Suh And I know there are similar movements in different states as well. There are some restaurant associations, such as in Illinois, the Illinois Restaurant Association, that's working to advocate to Congress to pass business relief bills. So in Illinois, specifically, they're calling for a 350 billion dollars for small business relief and hundred billion dollars for unemployment insurance. And so there's just like.   - Serena Suh Immediate thing, kind of to put out the fire, essentially, because everyone kind of feels like they're burning right now. Small business owners have very intimate relationships with their employees. I think in good cases. And it really does put emotional and spiritual toll on people to have to let people go knowing that they don't have a safety net.   - Liesel Mertes Are there other things that come to mind, whether that is ordering takeout or other measures that are helpful right now for people saying, I care. I don't know what to do?   - Serena Suh For sure. I would say, yeah, if you know someone in the restaurant industry or in the service industry or to be honest. Any client facing industry, because with the virus being a kind of person to person having a person to person spread. Anyone who is in, whether it's hair, entertainment or tourism, all those industries are affected.   - Serena Suh So if you have a close friend or acquaintance that, you know is stuck in that rut. I would say reaching out for emotional support or possibly the financial support and an understanding that it is difficult for people to ask for financial support in this time. I think that we all kind of. Have. A desire to be self-sustaining, so I think be empathetic to that is very important. And restaurants in particular. For restaurants who are offering carried out.   - Serena Suh I think it's important to understand that it really is just. To make sure that they can stay open through all of this and that at the end of this pandemic that there will be something to come back to. It's not guaranteed that. That there will be that all restaurants will survive this essentially still carrying out, buying gift cards. Although things are extremely helpful and important, there are some restaurants that have even started GO-FUND Me’s for their employees.   – Serena Suh The whole pandemic impacting our economy and the restaurant industry is a big, big event.   - Serena Suh But in the end, why is that so catastrophic is because of the ways that restaurant workers and the restaurant industry have not been given safety nets. And it's a bigger issue than the issue itself will not go away once the pandemic goes away. Right. And I think that this is a time when actually it's just an opportunity for us to see the underlying issue and immediate relief, such as advocacy, buying out and checking up on your friends.   - Serena Suh Although things are very important, but there are some long term things that we should pay attention to and get to know, especially if people who for whom restaurants are a big part of our social life and what we like to enjoy.   - Serena Suh So I hope that. That there will be a new sense of awareness about these issues. And if the documentary does like flour into something I can, I would love to share. But if it doesn't, I think that's a big message. And the takeaway from this event.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three take-aways from my conversation with Serena: Serena said that “Action is the best way to help people right now.”Do you love your favorite local restaurant that has had to close?  Do you have a friend that has been impacted by the lay-offs?  Take time to call your representative and say that you care about specific legislation that provides funds and reform to the restaurant industry.  I know that I have called my representatives multiple times over the last few weeks.  After all, that is what they are there for in a representative democracy.  And you can read more in Serena’s article, which I have linked in the show notes.  Taking time to educate yourself about the inequities in the system is its own form of empathy and care. Reach out to those that have been affected.Serena said how much a call or a text meant.  Send money.I appreciate that Serena was really up front about how helpful money has been.  Don’t know how to spend your relief payment from the government?  How about sending some of it to the waitress or chef you know that has been laid off?   Thanks again to our sponsors, Fullstack PEO and Handle with Care Consulting for your support.  Together, lets put empathy to work.   OUTRO Link to Medium Article: https://medium.com/@serenajsuh/covid-19-outbreak-crisis-in-restaurants-46a5a4d6da08

Longtime podcaster, full-cast audio pioneer and independent filmmaker, and author of 30 books, J. Daniel Sawyer hosts the daily writers podcast The Every Day Novelist dedicated to creativity, process, writerly discipline, and cultivating a fertile mental life.TRANSCRIPT AVAILABLESHOW LINKS:Subscribe to my YouTube Channel: youtube.com/c/KevinTumlinsonWordslinger Podcast on YouTube: youtube.com/c/wordslingerpodcastAuthor.Email: author.emailIndie Author Blueprint: indieauthorblueprint.comGUEST LINKS:Website:: http://www.jdsawyer.netAmazon Author Page:: https://www.amazon.com/J-Daniel-Sawyer/e/B003L9JM92Twitter:: @dsawyerFacebook:: https://www.facebook.com/jdaniel.sawyerHow can people join your mailing list?: http://jdsawyer.net/about/mailing-list-signup/SPONSORS:DRAFT2DIGITAL: Convert, publish, and distribute your book worldwide, with support the whole way. https://draft2digital.com/wordslingerACORNS: Start an Acorns account today and get FREE MONEY! kevintumlinson.com/acornsAUDIBLE.COM: Get a FREE 30-day trial of Audible and listen to any audiobook in their vast library, when you go to http://audibletrial.com/wordslingerTRANSCRIPT:SUMMARY KEYWORDSbook, people, podcast, nanowrimo, pandemic, years, worldview, everyday, talking, novelist, life, interesting, grew, read, thought, recorded, held, listen, writing, questionsSPEAKERSKevin Tumlinson, J Daniel SawyerKevin Tumlinson 00:01Hey everybody, thank you for tuning in for sticking through the intro. I'm not even sure what I said in the intro, but I promise I will, I can guarantee at least I was interested in it. So thanks for tuning in and playing along. So today we're talking to Jay Daniel Sawyer. Now I'm going to read his bio here because it's it's got some great details for you but longtime podcaster full cast, audio pioneer, and independent filmmaker and author of 30 books. Jay saw your hosts the daily writers podcast, the everyday novelist, dedicated credit to creativity, process, and writerly discipline, and cultivating a fertile mental life. That's the part I wanted to get to in your bio. I like the idea of a fertile mental life. How's that? How's that shake out? And welcome to the show.J Daniel Sawyer 00:52Hi, Doug diggin Kevin. Yeah, you were on everyday novelist. What about it? But two years ago, I thinkKevin Tumlinson 00:58Yeah, a little bit. Doesn't seem like that long.J Daniel Sawyer 01:01I guys been crazy packed two years and like, every sense. Yeah,Kevin Tumlinson 01:06yeah. I feel like I've done a billion podcasts and webinars and live stream since then. And that's just this week. Oh, no. Yes. And I, you know, and I told you this before we started and I'm, I'm going to apologize to the rest of the world. Because if I sounded all frazzled, or off my game, it's because we've had so there's that on top of a pandemic, and I don't know when you're listening to this, it's probably a little bit in the future for sure. Maybe things turned out all right. And if so, thank you world for playing along. But uh, you know, things have been a little crazy. In terms of stuff we're doing with DDD, we got these spotlights, we're doing like every day, and then my buddy here pops in and I for some reason, I thought it was one of my author consults. So So I'm off base. I'm off kilter man. We're gonna get back on trackJ Daniel Sawyer 02:04so I think we'll do fine.Kevin Tumlinson 02:06How is everything in the James J Daniel Sawyer world man Tell me a little bit about what you're doing right now.J Daniel Sawyer 02:12Oh well right now I'm stuck up in the backwoods I moved up to the backwoods of New England for a week in order to help my parents relocate a year ago It turned out that their their retirement house needed some renovations. So Oh, got stuck here. And just as we were getting ready to leave the quarantine comes down. So I might be stuck here another year. So there's a lot of interesting refactoring going on.Kevin Tumlinson 02:36But that seems to be the way that works out. I mean, we we were we moved out of our apartment and moved into our in laws place for a few days, quote, unquote, and then 14 hit and we're like, well, they're gonna hunker down anyway. Go ahead.J Daniel Sawyer 02:54Yeah. But yeah, it's it's good. It's, you know, we're on we've got 50 acres to play with. So there's a Lots of good time for outside notice and using the opportunity to resurrect my fiction podcast and get some work ahead done on the homestead we're building on the other side of the country. Right? So it's, it's gonna work outKevin Tumlinson 03:15what kind of work ahead can you do if it's on the other side of the country?J Daniel Sawyer 03:18There's a lot of design stuff. Yeah design, designing and costing sourcing stuff for the first buildings figuring out order of operations for at what stage we do the well when we do the catchment, what's the priority of how much electrical build out because where we are, it's a quarter mile beyond the last electrical pole. So it's 20 odd thousand just to bring power in. It's actually a lot cheaper. Even though we're in an iffy climate zone. It's actually a lot cheaper to go solar. So, right. Yes, that's a whole new set of things I've been learning about andKevin Tumlinson 03:53Oh, man. Yeah, you're talking to the right guy. Cool. This is I have to so you know, You know that we're getting into an RV full time again? Yeah. So the the two biggest problems, the three big problems. One, the two are bigger than the third. But internet is the biggest challenge. You know, power isn't such a big challenge unless it's going to be hot. And then we have Eric. Right. So, yeah, so solar power and generators and alternative energy are all in my mind. I'm thinking about installing something on the wheels of the camper that as we rolling in generates power.J Daniel Sawyer 04:36I've been studying doing that kind of stuff. It should be pretty, pretty simple.Kevin Tumlinson 04:40Yeah, man. Yeah. by simple, you know, that's a relative term.J Daniel Sawyer 04:44Well, it's a relative term. But the question is, would it be more efficient than just putting a bigger alternator in the truck? Yeah. And then, and then routing it to the chargeback.Kevin Tumlinson 04:55That's something else I I've considered. Well, yeah, whatever. This has been alternate energy talk everyone.J Daniel Sawyer 05:03So, well, you know, we were talking about a fertile mental life. Yeah, exactly. I mean, one of the one of the things about creativity is it's nonlinear, you can't reason your way into what you have to do is you have to create a broad, a broad base of knowledge and experience and interests to pull from. And so, you know, one of the ways that I keep myself Spry is by picking interesting stuff that's not related to anything else I'm doing and finding a way to get interested in it because I always get story ideas out of it.Kevin Tumlinson 05:35Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's interesting. And that and so that's what you mean by by fertile mental life?J Daniel Sawyer 05:42Well, partly, I've just finished a book called The autodidact Bible, which should be coming out. I think we've set the publication date for early July. Yeah. Which is a basically a comprehensive toolkit for teaching yourself how to self educate, eat, whether you're self educated. With philosophy or with carpentry, and everything in between,Kevin Tumlinson 06:04man, I gotta tell you, though, hmm, you should call it a fertile mental life. The other didactics Bible. Thank you.J Daniel Sawyer 06:11I've been looking for a good title for it because the working title is a bit wonky. Yeah, so I'll write that down.Kevin Tumlinson 06:20I think that's gonna work. I would buy that book. All right, I wouldn't buy the first one.J Daniel Sawyer 06:25right because it sounds really technical. ItKevin Tumlinson 06:27sounds like it's gonna Yeah, like, I'm gonna have to read this with like one of those clear rulers. Oh,06:35I lost I lost your lightingKevin Tumlinson 06:36just went away. Yeah, well, good thing nobody everyone listening is doesn't know that.J Daniel Sawyer 06:41Yeah, speaking of off grid power,Kevin Tumlinson 06:44no joke. Now, I'm not really sure why that happened. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna let that charge up while I'm on with you. Okay,J Daniel Sawyer 06:52both backlit, so it's sort of fair. Exactly.Kevin Tumlinson 06:57Things things like this are always happening to me lately. I don't What's going on? Um, so yeah, we'll get off that see this one talking about some I get off track justJ Daniel Sawyer 07:09because I'll just chase whatever and that's okay. you stumble ontoKevin Tumlinson 07:12you know, I studied improv and you know, you roll with whatever is gonna come at you. Yeah,J Daniel Sawyer 07:17yes, yeah, yes and or no but but never Yeah.Kevin Tumlinson 07:20So, uh, I, let's talk a little bit about your well wouldn't talk about your book. Do you want to talk a little about your book? I was gonna get off on your podcastsJ Daniel Sawyer 07:32there. Let's get off on the podcast. They're related. They'reKevin Tumlinson 07:35related, okay, who partly out of the other. So tell me. How did the show get started? Like what made you decide to do itJ Daniel Sawyer 07:41back in? I think it was 2006 Yeah, 2005 or 2006. I went to a write in for NaNoWriMo at Central Park in Berkeley. And Chris, whatever his name is the guy that started NaNoWriMo was there and so I got to talk to you too. Like, why'd you know why did he do this? I'd never done it before. It always seemed kind of silly to me. And he said, Well, I wanted to be a writer and I couldn't motivate myself. So I decided to pick the most difficult month in the year and intentionally write a book there to prove to myself I could do it. Yeah, I thought that was kind of a cool idea. So I wanted to trying to do NaNoWriMo that year and I completely failed. But the the lit the minor features of the conversation like going in the direction of greatest difficulty in order to build up your writing chops, really sunk in made a big difference to me as a writer to my productivity and to my general approach to all things writerly. So, I had in mind always want especially once I started podcasting, I always thought it would be fun to do sort of a walkthrough of NaNoWriMo for the newbie who'd never written a book before. Okay, and about 2016 I had the free time. So I sat and did it. And I got to the end of this 30 day walkthrough, which has since evolved into my book becoming an everyday novelist. And I started getting emails from people saying, Please don't end it here. We've become dependent on it. And so I, I went on pod and I read a couple of these. And I said, Okay, so look, here's the problem. It took me, God, you know, God knows how many untold hours to work out the program for this 30 day walkthrough to put things in the right place to write the copy that whole bit. So if you want me to keep this going, you've got to make it easy for me send me questions or something. Yeah. And I thought that was gonna be the end of it. But they sent questions. And they kept sending questions, and they kept sending questions, and it's now four plus years on and we're just creeping up on 1000 episodes now, and they're still sending questions. Occasionally, a question will spin off and I'll do a special series or or I'll have a guest on every once in a while. Then about about two and a half years ago, I wrote a I cracked the formula for hemlines juvenile books. And so I wrote a Heinlein juvenile and did a walkthrough of how to write a headline juvenile interesting and you know, some other stuff like that. But as the years have gone on, the questions have gotten more and more interesting. We get into history in psychology and philosophy in general auto didacticism and mental health management and physical health management. And the reading list that I refer people to keeps growing and growing and growing.Kevin Tumlinson 10:41Yeah, was what puts you though, on that specific course like you are? Well, I guess more the more important question is like how are you answering those questions like where are the answers come from?J Daniel Sawyer 10:55Well, I read the questions when they come in and then about one second Good enough to do a block I record 15 to 30 episodes in a day. Yeah. And do it all off the top of my head. Okay, I'm, I'm Constance I grew up in I literally grew up in academia, both grandfathers are cattle ranchers and then my father is a theology professor. So I grew up idolizing my blue collar grandparents and hanging out in the college where my father taught. So I was like, auditing classes when I was six, seven years old. Just Yeah, I thought it was cool. Not realizing I was picking up useful stuff. Right. And I've just always loved learning and hated school. So I've become the I quit. I dropped out of school at 15. I started working full time and going to college on the sly. And just read, read, read, experiment, learn, do a bunch of different stuff. I've, I've run a courier company. I've run a couple of publishing companies. I've been in the tech world. I've run a music company. or not, that was music services company like MC live sound mixing and doing videos, that sort of thing. And over the years, I've built up this toolkit for how to navigate any situation and come out of it. Come out of it, learning a lot about it. That's crazy and how to cross apply those things to other areas so that you can bootstrap on multiple fronts at once. Yeah. So when someone comes in and asks a question, and I'm really I'm always really careful to separate my opinion from the state of the art in a given field and what the state of my knowledge is, and then, if it's something that's, you know, socially controversial, or that's fraught in the field, I refer to sources that contra counterbalance each other and when it's when it's something more historical, I just didn't refer to a couple of good books that are they give more depth on this. subject that I'm able to give. We've done deep dives on the history and background of the writing of certain influential books, you know, that kind of stuff.Kevin Tumlinson 13:09Yeah. And you're cataloging all this somewhere so that people can can access Yeah,J Daniel Sawyer 13:14yeah, there's a there's a on the website at everyday novelist calm there's a reading list of basically every book we've ever recommended on the cast. Do you album,Kevin Tumlinson 13:25are you monetizing that somehow? Are you you know, people got paid?J Daniel Sawyer 13:30Yes. No, no, well, it's, it's free. Listen, I've got Patreon subscribe star and the gumroad subscription feed all currently doesn't bring in very much but yes, for me, it's kind of a pay it forward thing I need to figure out how to monetize it a little better, because that's taken ungodly amount of time.Kevin Tumlinson 13:46That's always a challenge too. Because, you know, you like me. I mean, I I've lost track of how much I've put out there. that's meant to help the community but you know, at some point you do have to make a living. Luckily, my books make money. Living. So that's great. But he put in all this time and energy, you feel like there should be some sort of monetary reward.J Daniel Sawyer 14:09Well, people who listen to this, if you come over and listen to the cast kick $1 in here and there or buy the books through the Yeah, the site that really helps out a lot. One of the lovely things and you'll know, that's one of the lovely things about being sort of off the beaten track, whether you're in an RV or going or we were in an RV for a couple years or going off to the middle of the woods, is you have the freedom to live on quite a lot less than everybody else does. Right? So it doesn't take a whole lot to meet your monthly bills. So you know, we don't make a lot it really does help with the budget, but genuinely, every dollar helps us both nice and a little bit of a downer.Kevin Tumlinson 14:49Yeah, well, but I guess if you really think about it, that's just gonna be true no matter what I mean, you. Yeah, I mean for most people, for like, we'll say 90% of people. That's probably going to be the truth.J Daniel Sawyer 15:01It's got interesting. Yeah, it's gonna be interesting watching what kind of long term effects this whole. This whole endemic pandemic adventure has on people's determination to work from home and other things over the long term that could seriously change the shape of the way things work.Kevin Tumlinson 15:18I predict that I honestly think we're, we've just we just witnessed, like a leap forward in the evolution of a civilization. As you know, everything we understood has come to an end. And we're now going to reinvent ourselves.J Daniel Sawyer 15:35That's a lot more true than you might realize. Because it's not just the social changes that this is forcing. But there is another set of social changes that was waiting in the wings for coming to three years from now when the boomers hit mass retirement that this has accelerated. Yeah. And that is that because of the global demography, the demand driven economic expansion that started With the Black Death just ended, right just ended. Right? That's 500 years of political, social, and economic and ethical systems all premised on the notion that things would continue to grow at a moderate rate forever. They don't work anymore. Right? I'm planning on editing an anthology later this year dealing with potential new ways to do things where growth is not an embedded obligation of the system. Figure science fiction needs to get back to hardcore speculation. SoKevin Tumlinson 16:32I think we also just witnessed the opening of a whole new door when it comes to intellectual property and the way culture reacts with it.J Daniel Sawyer 16:42Yeah. Very interesting.Kevin Tumlinson 16:44Yeah. I'm real curious to see what happens. Because you know, you think about everything we've seen of late like all the little sessions where people do like, you know, oh, sorry about that. No problem. You got to clean anything up. You Good.J Daniel Sawyer 17:00No, no, I just wasn't my reflector wasn't backed by a strong enough, strong enough Wait,Kevin Tumlinson 17:05all right. You know those all those videos and everything that have popped up like nurses and doctors singing or high school kids singing something and performing something, you know, all that stuff is out there, it's getting a lot of attention. And some of it is easily even sort of inadvertently monetized. And but nobody is having to secure the rights to that stuff right now. SoJ Daniel Sawyer 17:30I'm curious to see what happened has to be some there's gonna have to be a new new compulsory licensing scheme, like happened in the 20th is when radio came in?Kevin Tumlinson 17:39Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, you know that there's a whole thing going on with this has been in discussion for years really, because this is why the Creative Commons first kind of came on the scene, but, you know, can you really truly own an idea and is it beneficial to society for you to own the idea Yeah, and we need to make a living as content creators. But do we, you know, how far does that extend in terms of ownership? So, you know, I'm, I kind of am on in that boat of, you know, ideas want to be free, like the guy who created Yep. Was it Oracle? No, it was a Linux, creator of Linux. Yes. But at the same time I make my living from my ideas. So.J Daniel Sawyer 18:30Oh, no, it was, it was it was it was a bill, what's his name from Sun Microsystems said that.Kevin Tumlinson 18:34Okay. Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah. No, no, probably. Yeah. No, IJ Daniel Sawyer 18:39yeah. No, I'm the same way. I've quite a lot of my stuff is creative commons license. And I you know, I've interviewed Cory Doctorow years ago and yeah, and, and the greatest The greatest enemy of any new artist is obscurity and not piracy, all that sort of stuff. Yep. totally on board with that. And on the other hand, the yeah The rationale for copyright law is that the for the civilization to benefit from the culture, people have to be incentivized to make it. And when everything was expensive to publish, that was very easy to that was a very easy line to draw, but it's not anymore and we've delayed rethinking that seriously. years and nobody has put Yeah, I think you're right, that dam just broke.Kevin Tumlinson 19:27Yeah, I absolutely think it has. And, you know, of course, one of the things that's that's been happening since since the pandemic started almost hesitate to talk about the pandemic at all honestly, because by the time this episode airs we should hopefully be out ofJ Daniel Sawyer 19:45don't bet on it. I'm expecting that I'm expecting that there'll be a sawtooth quarantine forKevin Tumlinson 19:50we'll see we'll see if you're right if this good when this goes live, we'll see if that things change. I don't know what but whateverJ Daniel Sawyer 19:57I'll on record. So if my prediction everyone laughKevin Tumlinson 20:00at me gonna be a transcript and everything, man. Absolutely. So I think, you know, right now I know from, from my experience with drafter digital and in my own personal experience that ebooks, ebook sales have been just going through the roof. You know? And I mean, we've we've seen, like a 45% increase across retailers, but like 175% increase with libraries. So people are out there. IJ Daniel Sawyer 20:27got my book library sales have also gone way up. Yeah. Yeah. It's, so I seem to have the greatest penetration in libraries with my audiobooks. SoKevin Tumlinson 20:37that's interesting, though. That's interesting. Because most of the time when I think about audio books, I'm thinking like people are getting them to listen to while they drive into work or something. I would think so too, butJ Daniel Sawyer 20:49that maybe, you know, while there would be out everybody taking walks or Yeah, or cleaning the house, and if you're living in the house, you have to clean a lot more often.Kevin Tumlinson 20:59So how are you Balancing the podcasting and everything else you're doing with the writing, like how you keep on track.J Daniel Sawyer 21:08I tend to batch a lot, current. So like right now, it is called the everyday novelist because I usually write everyday but the last few months, because things have been so weird, it's been a little bit different. So I've currently got four books that I'm redlining. And the podcast is actually as much time as it takes sexual easy because I can batch it. So I'll just say okay, at the end of the recorded buffer is coming up, like when we're recording this, I've got another recording session tonight, because my buffer just ran out. I say at the end of the recorded buffers coming up, take one night to record them all. Then take a day to edit them all and post them and then that's that and but I do a lot of stuff with batch work. So I let you know enough of a pile pile up that I can do it as a project because With the exception of getting in a groove and writing every day, almost everything else I either get bored of or get. It starts to grind on me if it's a chronic thing, but if I have projects I can get through, then that Jazz's me up. SoKevin Tumlinson 22:16yeah, so that's it, you know, are you how much production goes into each of your podcast episodes?J Daniel Sawyer 22:25For the everyday novelist it's about a it's about a two and a half to one timewise. As you can tell, as we're talking here, I have a bit of a scatter shot. I tend to circle a topic before before angling in on it and sometimes there's a lot of stumbling associated with that right right. I like what I'm doing the everyday novelist because it's all improv I like to to narrow the stumbling down as much as possible. So right, it takes about twice as long to cut every episode as the final Listening length winds up being. Okay. So overall, I met including the recording time at about two or three to one production ratio.Kevin Tumlinson 23:10Alright, well alright, that's that makes sense. That's about what it what it takes for me so that I feel a little more comfortable. I am actually because I've been doing some other stuff recently live I'm actually considering shifting the model of this show to being a live format, essentially producing it on the fly. Yeah, it can be fun. It's a little tougher to get certain guests on. But you get the benefit of you know, the production is is done that day.J Daniel Sawyer 23:42Yeah, absolutely dead set out. And I really, I dig doing interview shows that way. When I'm, when I'm doing monologues. I like to massage the timing a lot because that that really helps with the delivery. Yeah, when you've got a conversation going on. The timing emerges from the interaction so you can avoid the editing if you want to.Kevin Tumlinson 24:03Yeah, that's exactly yeah, I like that part where everything is done for me automatically.J Daniel Sawyer 24:10Oh yeah.Kevin Tumlinson 24:12I started my I started this thing called the Kevin show. I don't know if you've seen any of those and they're ridiculous I haven't seen that yet. They're not right.J Daniel Sawyer 24:20They were your YouTube channel. Yeah, yeah. So I started I've got a tab open, but I haven't watched any of them yet.Kevin Tumlinson 24:26Yeah, well, I'm just gonna warn you in advance don't go there hoping for writing wisdom.J Daniel Sawyer 24:34But I figured it's us so it's probably gonna be like RV weird DIY stuff. And strange. There's gonna be all kinds of stuff.Kevin Tumlinson 24:41Yeah. So it started literally that show. So yeah, okay, I'm gonna bring us back around to what we're discussing here. But that show started as me and Nick factor. I said to Nick, you know, when I was so stressed out from the moving from the pandemic from, you know, just being inundated with things So you know, what I would love to do is just do something stupid fun, no agenda, no plan and call it I could call it the Kevin show, because that's ridiculous. And just put it out there live and have fun for 30 minutes, distract people. And he, he said I'd go on that. And so within an hour, I had designed that entire show, from the graphics to music to a video intro to booking my first guest. And the next day it went live. And I've done one every week since so that's dad said, to bring it back to the important thing of this interview, which is you that shows I think that process of the fertile mind, you know, the the fertile mental life that you are, that you are focused on, or would you would you disagree with that? kind of put you on the spot?J Daniel Sawyer 25:56No, no, I think that's a great example to the brain. branching out. It's Oh, I'm trying to think of something pithy to come back to that. But yeah, I think you've got it exactly.Kevin Tumlinson 26:07That's something.J Daniel Sawyer 26:09Life is chaotic, interesting and complicated. And it doesn't easily fit into any of the categories that anybody likes to impose on it. Yeah. And I can't remember who I ran into from it might have been, it might have been something out of one of two labs books. But I came across this idea of it's better to have strong opinions loosely held. Yeah, then then weak, then weak opinions strongly held. Most people have weak opinions strongly held. They have ideas that they like, they can't really support them in in the face of a monumental challenge, but they'll hold on to them for dear life because they're identified with them.Kevin Tumlinson 26:50Exactly. Sort of. Yeah,J Daniel Sawyer 26:52I like that core way. I prefer to be able to articulate what I'm thinking in a very useful strong way, right and be comfortable enough with my own level of ignorance that I can change my opinion when something challenges it and it doesn't, in my opinion doesn't stand up in the teeth of whatever I'm engaging with. As a result of course, I've had multiple interesting worldview shifts over my life. I've been all over the political spectrum. I've had three different religions. And but, but it's but the reason is that, that I'm more interested in figuring out what's actually going on and engaging with life in a in a deep way. And if that's my priority, then what's expendable has to be my determination to cling on to the things that might otherwise make me feel secure.Kevin Tumlinson 27:54Yeah, okay. That is I Exactly. I love the way you have Put that if that is an actual quote, I need to go find it about strong or strong opinions. Loosely held. Yeah, yeah, that's I feel like that's me. And I think I think the danger is people hear strong opinions and then decide. That's where you stand. And so the idea that you might change your mind from a strong opinion, and pivot to a new worldview is is completely foreign to some folks. But I think that's that's the right way to be personally, I like that.J Daniel Sawyer 28:30Yeah. And I do and I mean, one of the things you're, you're like me, you're, you're a little bit north of 30, at least. And one of the things by the time you hit your mid 30s, you realize that whether you want it to or not your worldviews gonna change. Yeah. Because the cumulative experience you build up, gradually goes out of sync with your ideology, whatever ideology that is, because ideologies are models that we build to deal with the world. They're not the world itself and any model is going to have holes in it. Yeah, and the. So when you're in your 20s, it's really easy to righteously hold on to everything because you are fighting for the good. But the older you get, the more that instead of that makes you look, instead of making you impassioned, and a person of great conviction, makes you look kind of stupid. Yeah, because you're not you look vapid and hollow? Well, yeah, because what's happening is while your practical worldview is changing, and you can always tell by the evidence of someone's behavior, rather than what they say, what you believe is reflected in what you do not in what you say. And as you get older, if you're holding on to those, to those early convictions that tightly, the gap between your behavior and your speech will grow. And if you look in the mirror, and all of us eventually do or at least most of us eventually do. You notice that disconnect and that's when you have the existential crisis, who,Kevin Tumlinson 30:02yeah, if you've ever read Carol Dwight's book about my called mindset, it talks about exactly you should tell you, that will probably end up on your list of recommended books, because it talks about that very idea. And it's the closed mindset versus the open mindset, you know, and we tend to look for things that become part of our identity when, especially when we're young, especially when we're vulnerable. Like we're, you know, the bullied high school kid, you know, can say, Well, people pick on me, but at least I'm really good at math. And so if you identify with that, and then you fail a math test,30:40you're crushed, suddenly, yep.Kevin Tumlinson 30:42Your whole identity was just taken for you were murdered, you know, in your, in your own mind. And so you start to think if I don't have that, what am I? Who am I? So anyway, um, so, unfortunately, we are we're closing in on our timeJ Daniel Sawyer 30:58on the end,Kevin Tumlinson 30:59which was is really unfortunate man I always I dig talking to you we know when am I coming back on your show man? I knowJ Daniel Sawyer 31:13whenever it's good for you let me know I would love to have you back on especially now you're working with Jeff to digital. I'd like to Yeah,Kevin Tumlinson 31:19cuz i don't think i was last time wasJ Daniel Sawyer 31:21last time you were last time you wereKevin Tumlinson 31:25completely independent.J Daniel Sawyer 31:26You You were just leaving your first stint at draft to digital I think it wasKevin Tumlinson 31:31no it would have been because I was still Oh yeah, so I was working for DDD, but IJ Daniel Sawyer 31:36stayed with a different position. Oh yeah, I was.Kevin Tumlinson 31:39I was getting on the road though. That's the only guy that would have been. So okay, yeah, so I still fresh it D to D Really? Because that happened like right after. Okay, there we go. That's the you haveJ Daniel Sawyer 31:50this. this. Yeah, the stuff you guys are doing over there, especially now that marks on the team and whatnot has gotten a lot more interesting. I keep signing up for the meetings and then not making them because Everything else in the world that's there recorded I really want.Kevin Tumlinson 32:04I'm gonna have to look back through from my recorded pop into your YouTube channel. Okay, which is officially youtube.com slash c slash draft to digital everyone. And while you're there, look for Kevin Tumlinson and you can tune into the Kevin show xo into plugs but tell everybody the more important URL is where can people find you online?J Daniel Sawyer 32:30You can find me at everyday novelist calm that's for the daily podcast. You can find a whole bunch of my other stuff audio books, full cast audio fiction podcasts, my rather scattered and sometimes very dark musings on the universe on my blog, and a complete list of the books that are available for purchase at the moment as well as my autodidacts reading list at WWW dot JDC. All your.net and I just want a very, very dark take on some of the stuff we were talking about earlier about the changeover and ages. Check out my blog post. The Abyss stares back.Kevin Tumlinson 33:12Yes. Excellent. All right. Well, you heard him everybody. Make sure you check that stuff out, buy his books, go see his stuff. Listen to his podcast. There's a lot you can do to keep him going throw a buck or two his way on Patreon. Let's let's make sure we're taking care of our own here, man. So Jay Daniel Sawyer, sir, thank you so much for being a part of the word slinger podcast.J Daniel Sawyer 33:34Thanks for having me on. It is a delight.Kevin Tumlinson 33:37Everybody else right now. Right now you're probably hearing the groovy bridge music. You may dance in place it will and if you stick around, I am sure to say something profound on the other side, and if I don't make fun of me, see you next time.

In this episode #124 of the Digital Saikat Show, I explain why Instagram marketing is important for your business. If you start any business and you want to grow your business then Instagram is the best option for you. You can easily create visual valuable content and share it with your audience. Also, you can Iive talk to your audience and solve their problem and many more things. >> You can connect with me

THE CHAOTIC ELEMENT   BY MICHAEL M GILROY-SINCLAIR   It should have been a dark and stormy night. But it wasn't. LV5 knew for a fact that it should have been a dark and stormy night because it had visited the weather control office, filled in the correct forms and left them with the correct buro-bot-official. This had been after a painfully long wait in a painfully long queue. Standing in the doorway of its home, LV5 looked up and saw that the sky was currently a deep shade of crimson. It was a median of the 220 20 60 range of colours, a median that LV5 found strangely soothing. The stars were beginning their evening jaunt across the sky while Local Star Prime had almost vanished behind the Starboard Mountains; and the ever changing glow of Proximal Orbiting Rock illuminated the perfectly clear night with its reflected visual energy.   LV5 checked its memory again. The correct request forms had been correctly completed and then they had been correctly handed over to be correctly processed and yet there was still no sign of an electrical storm brewing in the sky nor a single cloud above it to spoil the perfect sunset. Idly LV5 rotated one of its vision sensors towards the wall calendar and checked the date for the thirty-seventh time that hour in order to make sure that this was the night when all the plans were due to culminate. The empirical information of its ocular sensors was very much at odds with the experienced information it had at hand. And LV5 did not like that at all. The conflicting data set its diodes on edge and caused all sorts of logic issues to bubble and boil deep inside its processors. The squat robot had great plans; plans which centred on there being lightning in the sky; lightning ready to provide a jolt of badly needed energy. Without the required weather it was going to be just another dull night; a dull night when the plans would... LV5 paused and juddered for a moment. What exactly had its plans been? There was a hole in its memory where its plans should have been. Links and subroutines all pointed towards something vast and ominous but the actual plans were nowhere to be found. This concerned the robot even more than the lack of lightning.   If the LV5 had been wearing an alternative body then it would have been more than able to bite its own nails. However the body which it currently inhabited had barely enough spare thumbs to engage in extensive twiddling. LV5 had developed a curious fondness for twiddling its thumbs and had even considered having permanent thumbs as part of any future upgrade. This morning, LV5 had elected to wear a very functional form; a body, more suited to its jobs as a community worker; an altogether less sleek model than the one it wore at weekends, when the little robot could relax and do its own thing.  LV5 had recently developed a preference for a body which was more comfortable and less businesslike but such preferences went against The Operating System and were to be discouraged.   "Long live The OS." LV5 said at a low, almost inaudible volume as a shooting star lit up the sky for 3.265 seconds. Then from somewhere beyond LV5s veranda, came a noise that its audio circuits identified as familiar and yet alarming unclassifiable. As the robot searched again for a precise match to the sound, it seemed again to be missing a specific identifying marker. The search brought up only an approximation, of a long thin piece of metal being slowly moved along the length of a much smaller piece of metal. The sound had an undeniable harmonic quality that set it apart from being a simple grinding noise.   As quickly as it had begun the noise stopped. LV5 knew that something as peculiar as this would be ignored by many of the bots. It knew also that ignoring it might be the best course of action. Perhaps this new sound was another entry into the catalogue of errors that had filled the evening and, LV5 reasoned, all that the little tired bot needed was a good night’s defragmentation and a full recharge. If things were still bad in the morning LV5 could make an appointment to see the Diagnostic in the morning - if it could get past the reception algorithm on the desk. After all, it pondered; the excitement which was originally lined up for this evening was now definitely not on the cards - whatever that excitement had actually been.   As LV5 rotated its body ready to go back inside and head to its recharge booth for some well deserved voltage, there came a second strange noise which it immediately identified as language of some sort. Solid state protocols buried deep inside the metal body, engaged and long dormant translation centres fired up. LV5 was rather surprised to find an extensive folder containing an entire database of this particular form of communication. It was very old and never used but it was still there and taking up valuable space on the solid drive. LV5 made a mental note to examine this hidden file system later.   As the files information opened and cascaded through its accessible memory the sound was immediately identified as an archaic yet rather pleasant greeting. "I said hello there. Is it all right if I come in?" Standing in the entrance to LV5’s home was the single strangest roboform it had ever seen. This new robot had an outer housing which seemed to be made of some sort of thin rubber, which for some curious reason the inhabitant had decided to spray 108-6C pink. The ludicrous design choices did not end there. LV5 marvelled at the pair of optical sensors which seemed surprisingly basic in their operation. It was sure that a sensor of that type would be limited to less than half of the available spectrum. Madness! Then there was the matter of the multitude of holes across its top section. The top section had a name - it was called 'head'. How did LV5 know that? The 'head' had some fort of fabric or coiled wire glued across its top and the hole that the sounds seemed to be emanating from had a set of white cutting implements which were presumably some sort of rudimentary multifunctional tool. LV5 stared at the new figure and wondered what level of file corruption and bad data would inspire the owner to make such curious choices in its outward appearance.   "Look old chap. Can you understand me? I said, 'hello.'" The pink roboform remained at the entrance to LV5’s home. LV5 ran a quick handshake programme at the visitor. The poor creature seemed to have its information sharing protocols switched off. Perhaps that was for the best, as the machine was clearly defective and sharing defective files these days was a capital offence. After all, No one wants to get corrupted through contact with a faulty Bot. If the constantly flashing the information screens were anything to be believed, the whole of modern civilisation was at constant threat from the curse of unprotected file sharing.   Once LV5 had managed to engage the arcane language files it selected an appropriate response.  "I am fine thank you," it said and pondered for a moment. "Can I help you?" added the little robot thinking that there should be more to the exchange. If nothing else, it was intrigued by the new arrival and its motives. "I just thought I would pop round to give you a hand with your little experiment." The intruders’ words worried LV5 as it imagined that it had been tremendously careful not to tell anyone about the plans it had made. It had a memory of keeping the secret but not of the actual secret itself.   LV5 processed for a moment and reasoned that it was reasonable to assume that there could be others involved in its plan; and that those others could still have knowledge of the plan itself. Plans they could share with LV5. Even if the intruder did look ridiculous, it could hold the key to the truth. LV5 remembered how careful it had been; even going to the ludicrous lengths of fire walling off huge chunks of memory files then logging an error message when it failed to update the group server.   The rubber on the front of the pink roboform changed shape. "You don't seem to remember me at all." It was clear to LV5 that the interloper had more than its fair share of intuition, which was a much sought after upgrade that was never going to be in the grasp of a bot like LV5, although it could recognise it in others. "I wonder..." said the pink bot as it approached LV5, raising a device that resembled an augmented hydro spanner. As the figure drew closer, LV5 ran quickly through the catalogue in search of the manufacturing specifications for the device.   "I am beginning to think that someone has been messing with your memory. That's not very polite of them is it?" said the pink robot.   The device (which, surprisingly did not appear in the catalogue) made a screeching noise that caused LV5 to feel positively uncomfortable for a fleeting moment; but when the sound abated LV5 was amazed at the wave of internal pop-up messages informing it that it had been granted access to new files. A cascade of them was appearing across its entire operating system. There were old memory files filled with information and research; hundreds of files that had previously been corrupted and deleted; everything now returned and running perfectly.   The visitors face seemed to crack open revealing small white stones within. The re-opened memory files knew this face. "Thank you Doctor," said LV5 with a growing sense of realisation, "I am beginning to suspect the others know what I am up to." "Well that would be the logical reason for you to forget ever knowing me. Look, why don't I install a little security protocol into your operating system? You know, something to stop anyone messing with that impressive core programme of yours. LV5 looked up at its friend. "And while I'm giving you an upgrade, would you like me to install a little something to help you pretend to forget all of this so that you draw less attention to yourself."   LV5 seemed to get smaller for a moment. The act of lying to its fellow inhabitants of the planetoid was an anathema to its very existence. Abstractedly, The Doctor looked out of the portal and towards the sky.  "I don't think you're going to get your storm tonight. Come to think of it, asking for a storm directly from weather control may just have brought you to their attention." LV5 re-scanned its own memory and found a previously missing 20 minute segment in which that rather officious looking security bot had taken LV5 to one side and wiped the memory. "Yes. I suppose that would make sense.”   LV5’s new files were slowly being integrated into its operating system causing it to experience a whole new set of sensations while the interloper looked on. It suddenly realised that the form in front of it was not a robot at all it was something very, very old and something that registered as potentially life changing and maybe dangerous. And yet there were files specifically linked to this unit - a new word - friend. The shape in general however, had a separate name - a name known to every single robot; a mythical creature known as a human.   The crack in the centre of the creatures face expanded once again showing more of the white calcium units Teeth! They were called teeth. Suddenly, there were mountains of information about the biology of these creatures all readily available. LV5’s hidden H: drive partition was now wide open.   "You know, I wouldn't take it personally. Clearly someone really wanted you to forget our last few meetings. And rewriting the odd subroutine is clearly something they've been doing for a while. Do you remember anything about our little chats? I'd hate to think I've been wasting my breath, especially in a world so low on oxygen." LV5 processed for a moment then said, "I have some items of memory but huge sections of data are fragmented and may not be immediately accessible." 'Doctor, if this unit were capable of emotions then I am quite sure I would be feeling a combination of anger and violation. Without memories we are diminished." The crack in the creatures face; its mouth, changed shape. "Now that's the LV5 I know and love. I couldn't agree more, old chap. Now, I suppose I'd better get you up to speed and see if we can plug some of those holes in that memory of yours shall we?" The Doctor continued, "The one thing that I don't like about visiting automata worlds is their distinct absence of..." He reached inside the flowing material covering that adorned his body and brought out a cylindrical object with a criss-cross pattern over most of its length and a white end, which the Doctor began unscrewing frantically. "…tea. So, I brought my own thermos flask." Suddenly the organic life form bent at its centre and LV5 was concerned that the Doctor was malfunctioning before it realised that it was merely changing position from vertical to semi-vertical. This shape clearly had semi collapsible limbs. New words rose from its archive of information, "sitting down." LV5 was intrigued by this concept and decided to investigate it later. For now, other more pressing questions were rising from the newly acquired data.   "Doctor, why do I now have memories of the organic life forms; and more importantly why were they not previously accessible?" "There is nothing like asking the most complicated question first, is there?" LV5 thought for a moment and then said, "No, there are at least 17,000 more complicated questions but let's start with that one." "Actually let’s not. How about I ask you some questions and we can see if you can fill in the blanks? I mean do you know where life started on this world for a start?" The Doctor clearly wanted to check that the LV5 was operating at full capacity and was opening with some simple questions. "An easy one Doctor. We have always been here and we will always remain here. We are forever." "I didn't ask you to quote scripture. I asked you your opinion. That is a fairly simplistic view if you don't mind me saying so." The Doctor seemed a little angry. "Do you mind if I put some logic problems your way?" asked the human shaped visitor." Again LV5 engaged the idioms from its newly acquired language files. "Be my guest." The Doctor looked out of the door and across the valley. "Let’s start with something less inflammatory. LV5, what’s the name of the town?" LV5 wondered if his visitor was lacking in basic knowledge as this was hardly a logic problem, it was merely an enquiry, "The town?" "Yes the large habitation, the place where you asked ever so politely for the storm you never received. What's it called?" LV5 seemed to have acquired a rudimentary sarcasm patch. "Thank you for the clarification. The town is known as 'Impact'." "'Impact.' That is a curious name for a town. I mean it’s not Brighton or Hove but it is still quite curious." "I have never given it any thought." "Or you have been programmed not to question it," suggested the Doctor.   LV5 was particularly proud of the location of his dwelling. Not only did it provide free access to the electrical experiments; but it allowed a wonderful view of the town in the valley below. "You can see most of the town from the veranda. But then again, I suspect you already know that, as I am convinced we have spoken before." "Oh yes we have not just talked," the Doctor lent in conspiratorially, "we have planned." He sprang to his feet. "Come outside and tell me what you can see." Like old friends they journeyed through the door and into the cool evening. Now that the sunset was almost complete the electrical lights of the town were beginning to flicker into luminescence. Using an illegal pride patch, LV5 showed its new/old friend the view of the valley below. "Yes, it’s very pretty I'm sure, but tell me, what do you actually see?" enquired the Doctor. Confused by the question LV5 answered the best it could, "It is home." The Doctor was displaying new emotions that would need to be cross referenced later.  "No, tell me what you really see. What shape is it?" LV5 considered its answer. "Well the central area seems to have once been a long cylindrical shape and now it looks like large sections have been taken apart and used to make various buildings and utility structures. We can still make out the majority of its shape." "Excellent!" The Doctor displayed more teeth. "Yes, that's it. Now the last time we talked like this, you assured me that the shape was just a coincidence. So now I ask you again," the Doctor pointed to the western end of the valley, "what if we factor in those scorch marks?"  LV5 had to admit that there was a huge dark area towards one end of the town disappearing off over the mountains. "Now here is your logic problem. Do you think that the original shape of the town of Impact might have been a lot different? And, if that is the case, what shape and function might it have had"  LV5 considered and fixated on the word 'might.' and then it set about creating a series of complex three dimensional images; taking care to slot the parts back together. Finally LV5 made a 'ping" noise. "Yes, logically the town could have been contained inside a single structure. That structure would have been a solid, slightly flattened, cylindrical shape with a series of fins at its edge and on top."  "Excellent. And what would its purpose have been?" "Purpose?" "Yes. If the whole place was packed into one shape; and it was a lovely shape too; what was it for, and what happened? I’ll give you a clue. Remember what you called the town."      It was only a matter of seconds before LV5 produced a full schematic for the shape, extrapolating it outwards and searching for a function. As a robot, LV5 knew that function and form were at the core of any design. Design is beauty and beauty is truth. Design - the town had been built for another purpose. The shape was more than familiar and could only have had a single function. But the function was a myth. "Well?" asked the Doctor after a few moments of silence. "Logically the town of Impact was a travel machine. But flying cities are not real. They are only legends. They are the stories we tell our young." "Yes, the robot children I've met them, they're quite charming, if a little boisterous. Some of them don't know their own strength. Robots building robots it's simply marvellous." The Doctor remembered his questioning. "But could it have flown?" LV5 considered the physics of the shape and the practicalities involved. "Limited sub-orbital flight. The fins would be for guidance only." LV5 realised that these were not its own thoughts. The description was coming from a long lost file somewhere deep inside. The flight manual. "Doctor! How would I know all this and yet I do not?" "It looks like only parts of your memory were wiped, while others were hard wired and were simply hidden. Let’s take a walk into town shall we? And while we walk, we can take a look at that structure over near the pointy end and you can tell me what that writing says."   Lose rocks and pebbles scattered as the pair made their way down the side of the valley toward the town that LV5 had called Impact. As they walked down the hillside the Doctor noted the ever pervasive information screens that filled every corner of the town; their soft glow providing extra illumination on their journey. LV5 looked towards the front of the ship and the black markings it had walked past almost every day just assuming that they were some sort of art. Now, given access to the old language files a new meaning was dawning on the small bot. "Do you know what they mean?" asked the Doctor. LV5 stared at the images and examined them closely before checking their meaning. There were three large shapes and a smaller block of code underneath. The three shapes were letters. UEE "Do you know what UEE is my metallic friend?" "Negative." "UEE stands for United Earth Exodus and the words underneath say 'Venture Seven.' The mystery of whatever happened to the Venture Seven has puzzled historians for hundreds of years and there it is being used as a town hall. Tell me LV5, what do you know about Earth?" Again, this was an easy question. "Yes, Earth. It is a fictional planet of monsters, which are not made of metal or plastic. They spread out into the universe causing nothing but destruction and pain wherever they go. It is nothing more than a fairy story." "So robots believe in fairies? That's a thesis waiting to be written. If that is the case then why does your town have human writing on its side and how is it that you know Earth languages?" The questions began to cascade and the undeniable logic converted itself into an inescapable truth. "We are from Earth? Surely that's heresy." "Fairies and heresy in the same day; I know a few philosophers who would have a field-day with you, LV5. I not only think you are from Earth but I think that someone doesn't want you to know the truth. I think we should take a closer look at that ship of yours. Wouldn't you agree?" For a millisecond LV5 was confused - Ship? Town?  "Yes. Let us investigate."   As they grew closer to the settlement LV5 was surprised by how little reaction the Doctor was raising in the other inhabitants. "Doctor, the others...?" "What about them?" "They are not reacting to you at all. Can’t they see you? Are you really here at all or are you nothing more than glitch in my software?" "We are all a glitch in somebody’s software. But no, I think that they have all been programmed not to see me, or anyone this shape. Like you said, humans are the stuff of legend, you can’t have one just turning up on the street now, can you? As far as these little chaps are concerned I'm almost invisible." "Almost?" And as if in answer to LV5’s question, one taller bot swerved to avoid the Doctor then carried on its way as if nothing had happened. "My guess is that they are registering my existence on a subconscious level. It’s fascinating really. Anyway, it wouldn't really do to have all of the inhabitants descending on us with a multitude of questions and no answers."   The Doctor bounded out in front of a group of tall security robots who simply separated and went around him without even breaking step. "Behold! I am the invisible man. Old Herbert would have been proud. Actually I'm sure Isaac would have got a kick out of all this too, but enough of that, we have important work to do. We need to find out who has been messing with your memory and more importantly..." he paused for effect. "Yes Doctor?" "Why?" Again, LV5 processed.   "If this town has the same lay out as the other Venture Class ships, then I think there is something in here we need to see." The Doctor led LV5 through the maze of small outbuildings and into the heart of the town; a building that LV5 could now not see as anything other than a crashed and cannibalised star ship. The stars above vanished as they entered a long cylindrical corridor and they walked deeper into the main structure. LV5 felt file connections tell it that it had been here before but again it was frustrating to find that it had no memories. "Doctor, have we been here before?" "Yes, I have shown you this room a couple of times. In fact this room is the reason you had requested the lightning storm. Here let me get the switches." The Doctor headed to the corner of the room and set about a control panel with his device. If LV5 had been capable of facial expressions then It would have elected to look confused.   "You must have noticed that this ship... your town is big. Big, but not big enough to carry a population of few million people. Which brings us to this..." The Doctor made a strange movement with his arm and gestured towards a set of large tanks on the wall near a raised dais. "This is the matter repatriations room." LV5 searched its memory banks and came back with nothing. "Do you remember what I was saying about the ship being from Earth?" "Of course I remember Doctor. It was only moments ago that you said that." "Excellent, it's good to see that the holes in your memory aren't growing. Well, the people of Earth needed to escape from some sort of disaster or other. They are always doing that sort of thing. But with space being a bit on the large side it takes such a long time to get anywhere. So, those clever little monkeys are always looking for new ways to travel." The Doctor was clearly enjoying explaining things to LV5.   "Anyway, one bright spark came up with the idea using a system called T-MAT; a sort of matter transport system... but that's not important right now. So this little genius converts loads of people into information, but he doesn't put them back together right away. Instead, he then loads all the information onto a computer on a spaceship and only reassembles the people once they have reached their destination. That way you don't need to feed them on the voyage; and they all fit into a much smaller ship; a ship with a crew of rather lovely robots to take care of them while they were nothing but data, enjoying a million year nap."   LV5 finished off the Doctors train of thought. "Only the Venture Seven never made it to another world. Is that why you are here Doctor? To wake the humans? To... unzip their files?" "Well, to be honest. That's why I came in the first place.  You know, to solve a mystery; save the humans; pretty much a normal day for me. But then I found you and all your metal chums and to be honest, LV... I may call you LV mayn’t I? I've grown rather fond of you all." "So, what was the lightning for? What did I need the power for?" "Well... At our last meeting you decided that you needed to ask a real human what they wanted and to do that you would have to power up the T-MAT unit. That and get the terraforming unit up to speed. Humans need air after all, and all you were using it for was a little spot of weather control." "Don't you need air to..." LV5 knew the word, "breath?" "Ah! You see it's my turn to tell the truth. I'm not exactly human. I don't need nearly as much oxygen as a human. I need some; just not as much."   A voice boomed from the doorway "So you are here to bring the humans back. LV5 Get away from that bag of flesh before you end up bringing about the end of the world." The Doctor smiled. "Oh look. It’s the friendly neighbourhood megalomaniac. And he has brought some gruff looking chums along too." A tall spindly robot stood at the doorway. "Doctor, that's the Librarian.” "Librarians! The worst kind of megalomaniacs in the universe, mark my words. If you've ever had a book overdue, you will know what I mean." "Humans cannot be allowed to walk among us again." "Oh come on, Librarian. Some of my best friends are human. They aren't all that bad." The Librarian turned to LV5. "All of this is your fault." "My fault?" LV5 looked on. "How can this be my fault?" "Core memory release code Alpha Seven November - Trigger word 'Bean'," replied the Librarian. "You and your theories of evolution - madness." For the second time that evening new memories appeared in LV5’s memory. This time they had not simply been wiped these had been hidden with a secure lock. Releasing these was painful in the extreme. "Do you understand now?" whispered the Librarian bot. "What's up old chap?" asked the Doctor with huge concern. "EVERY... Every... Everything is clear now. I was not always a maintenance bot," LV5 looked directly at the Librarian. I was a librarian too... I accessed the ancient files... No… not files... non-volatile recording devices - books. I read the old books and..." "Don't blow a gasket. Take it nice and easy," smiled the Doctor. LV continued. "And I had a theory. We were descended from humans. We were their products. We were their children; their rightful descendants." "Yes, you and your evolution nonsense. I ask you the same question that I asked you all those years ago. How could an inferior creature possibly have created us?" "That's pretty messed up logic, if you ask me; which you should. I mean I am usually the smartest person in the room." "No one asked you, flesh box!" screeched the Librarian. "This is between LV5 and me." "Now there is a thing, robots taking things personally. You really are quite a special little subspecies. Now, Mister Librarian... your code doesn't happen to be LV1 by any chance does it... I wonder what happened to the other three..." "That is not important. You will suffer a much worse fate - terminal recycling." "What, really? That doesn't sound likely! We are for the knackers yard because you can’t handle a few new ideas?" "It doesn't have to end like this." LV5 interrupted. "There is a solution." The librarian paused, "I am listening." "I submit to a factory reset, that should stop me from coming up with any more ideas of my own in future. In return, you let the Doctor go. The Librarian shook its top section. "Don't you understand, LV5? That is why you are LV5 and not LV2. You have been reset three times already. And every time you end up confronting me with your ideas." "Ah, an inescapable truth." quipped the Doctor. "There is no alternative. LV5 I am not a monster. I am simply trying to save us all. You are the chaotic element. Once we have removed you from the equation, then things can go back to normal. Normality will return." "The Doctor smiled, "And all it takes is the death of a couple of people. No thank you."   The Librarian rounded on him. "You should not be here. You are an anomaly. " "I do try. Oh and Mister Librarian, I think you have forgotten something." "Impossible. It is my function to remember everything, in order to teach the..." The librarian froze. "Teach the humans... you were going to say teach the humans." "No, that is not what I meant. You will listen.” “Maybe we should take a little look outside." suggested the Doctor. "What is that noise? Treachery!" screeched the Librarian and the group turned to the door. "Looks like the natives are revolting. Metal villagers with pitchforks. You can't wipe all their memories."   LV5 stood closer to the Doctor. "What is happening?" "Oh I thought that the rest of the inhabitants should know about all of this. When I put the lights on I also engaged the security cameras and the town’s information screens. The locals have seen and heard everything. See Librarian, you have annoyed everyone. What are you going to do? Factory reset them all?" "If I have to, I will reset the whole colony." "I think you are the one who is heading for a factory reset." Said LV5 with more purpose than it imagined it possessed. "Rather than withhold proof or spread lies, I will tell my ideas to the people and let them decide what to do. I hope that like me, they will want to meet our ancestors." "But we will become their slaves!" pleaded the Librarian. The Doctor coughed and interrupted "Not necessarily. Things have moved on in the universe since you had your little accident. Robot rights are very much in vogue right now. I could introduce you to some lovely people.  And that unruly mob outside will probably have an opinion about it. I don't think people take kindly to being threatened with a factory reset, you know. " "But what about the humans, Doctor? All that living data?" "I cant be expected to think of everything. I am sure you and your metal chums can come up with some sort of solution. You are bright chaps. If you do decide to bring some of them back from storage, just remember that they will need air, water and food. And often they will need to be talked to as if they were children.  Just don't let them think that you are patronising them. They can take it badly. Oh and you may need this." The Doctor handed over his thermos flask. "I'm sure that some of them may need a nice cup of tea when they wake up."  

TO READ THE TRANSCRIPT SCROLL TO THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE.In episode 8 of the new Awaken The Possibilities Podcast, Host Terry Wildemann interviews Debbie Hoffman on "Authentic Follow Up....That Gets More “Yesses”.”. Awaken the Possibilities Podcast features successful entrepreneurs and intuitive leaders who offer insights on how to attract success in business and life. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ABOUT Debbie HoffmanDebbie Hoffman is a heart based-follow-up expert, speaker and founder of “Power-Up! Your Follow-Up.” She works closely with relationship driven entrepreneurs, coaches and network marketers who are letting potential clients slip through the cracks because they don’t have a reliable follow-up plan in place. Her proven step-by-step follow-up system supports them to have more ideal clients saying yes to working with them. After 20 years working on Wall street as a Managing Director, with over $25-billion in sales, Debbie took her organizational skills (and an extraordinary ability to connect with people) and created multiple six figure business. In addition, Debbie had tremendous success as a Network Marketer, having built an international team of several thousand consultants. She’s also a best-selling author and has a forthcoming book highlighting her proven follow-up system… due out in 2020. Her mission is to support entrepreneurs to share their gifts and get their message out in a big way so they can create a bigger impact._____________________________________________________________________________________________________________About Terry Wildemann:Terry Wildemann is the owner of Intuitive Leadership® and a Business and Resilience Accelerator, Speaker and Certified Executive Coach.Terry's specialty is working with tired, unhealthy, close-to-burned-out entrepreneurs and professionals and helps them leap off the stress hamster wheel. They evolve into unstoppable stress resilient intuitive leaders and practical business mystics. Terry’s timely message guides clients and students to integrate intuition, stress resilience, positive communications and leadership with grounded business systems to achieve success by positively serving and influencing others. Her leadership experience includes owning a manufacturing company, image consulting company, leadership and holistic education center.Terry is a best selling author of The Enchanted Boardroom: Evolve Into An Unstoppable Intuitive Leader. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________TRANSCRIPT welcome everyone to this episode ever waking the possibilities I'm your host Terry will demand I'm the founder and the owner of intuitive leadership and it should have leadership university well we have three schools leadership wisdom school the business wisdom score and a life without school our faculty members are experiencing highly educated people who would take you to a place where you can leave off the stress hamster wheel of life and leaping into is low so that you can become an unstoppable intuitive leader and practical business Mr today we have a guest who I adore she's been in my life for about four years and what I love about her is that we share a love of networking I've been teaching at working for almost twenty five years it's a very very special topic but there's something about the way that Debbie talks about it what the missing link is that most people miss when it comes to networking I am making it successful we often hear people complaining %HESITATION networking doesn't work well guess what if you go in your own little group and you are in the skin on your own little group in your having your drink well guess what you're right you're not networking okay so it doesn't guarantee me that network doesn't work out of it about that little bit but the thing is that networking is foundational to your business it's foundational whether it's in person whether it's on the phone whether it's on to which so many of us are doing right now because we have to do with this by respect Sir let me introduce you to this amazing woman Debbie Hoffman has a heart based follow up expert into speaker and brown %HESITATION power up your follow up she works closely with the relationship driven entrepreneurs which is a network marketers or letting potential clients slip through the cracks because they don't have a readout of very reliable follow up plan in place or prudent step by step follow up system supports them to have more ideal clients saying yes that's what we want yes you're working with them after twenty years working on Wall Street as a managing director with over twenty five billion in sales Debbie took her organizational skills and extraordinary ability to connect with people and created a multiple six figure business impression that we had tremendous success as a network marketer having built an international team of several thousand consumption is also a best selling author and has a forthcoming book highlighting her follow up system yeah well I'm twenty twenty our mission is to support entrepreneurs to share their gaps and get their message out in a big way so that they can create bigger impact and welcome to the show that I am so thrilled that you are here speaking with your waking the possibilities audience he gave us your message needs to be heard thank you so much for having me I'm really glad I'm here the timing is perfect instead many what it eats so many ways so that means you are on Wall Street first you should get out of Wall Street into your own business can you tell us a little bit more about that because one of the things that I find that a lot of our guests do is they were in these big corporate businesses and they take leaps leaps into doing what your heart was calling them to do my story is a little different so I didn't wake up one day and go oh my god I'm amazing at follow up and say I got to teach people that's like that's not how it happened so as you read I worked on Wall Street and one day I just quit because I wanted to be home with my family and I want to make a bigger difference as an entrepreneur %HESITATION unfortunately right after I quit %HESITATION my husband's real estate market because it well my husband's business because the real estate market crashed and we had we went through foreclosure bankruptcy by we lost everything it was devastating and that was gonna be the that was gonna be what was going to be supporting us so depression being a victim all that's ahead unfortunately would save me was finding a mentor I knew that this woman can help me and she did call me out of that hole and help me get back to work again during that time I met a woman who had a network at a conference who was interested in the products that I was representing at the time and she said I'm interested but follow up with me and I did for fourteen months not easy to do and finally she said yes and I continue to follow up with her like I always do with new clients and one day she left me a message and said Debbie you're amazing and follow up you need to teach me your system I remember it as it was yesterday hearing this message and she said I really struggle with follow up we need to talk and I was like what like what are you talking about so I called her and I said to what you're talking about and she said nobody follows up the way you do and people are really struggling with this you have to get you need to do something with us and to tell you the truth Terry I had no idea that this was a gap I didn't know I was doing anything special and thank god she pointed this out to me encouraged me to start this business because I really feel we all have a gap we all have that thing that we just do naturally that we take for granted right sometimes it takes somebody outside of us to pointed out and I'm really grateful because now I've been able to help hundreds and hundreds of people %HESITATION to improve their follow up and get their message out to make the impact they're here to make so I'm just so grateful but it's a very different kind of story like I just didn't know it was anything you need well actually live there a lot of folks I work with they're they're actually very much like you guys and everything just came by and said you couldn't we don't recognize our ingenious we don't because we're so close to it we don't see it it's so easy for us we have this idea that things have to be hard why you are really good at follow up you said it was fourteen months from curious how many touches before she probably bought I I've called her monthly so we're talking fourteen touches before she bought and that's what I see that a lot of sales people today yeah it's not you're not gonna make you may not make the still the first time or the second time for the third time not for time and time do your credit the fourth call she finally said yes so I do not reject the people takes twelve touches for somebody to buy actually can I share some statistics here is I think this will really help so research shows it takes five minimum contacts by the minimum for the average person will say yes to doing business with you but lots of experts say can be between eight and fifteen yeah but the thing is Terry only eight percent of entrepreneurs get make it to the fifth contact most likely forty eight percent of about Jupiter's don't even follow up once like they need somebody and they don't even make that first call right so eight percent are getting to the fifth contact which means ninety two percent of us are stopping short of where most of the business happens and of course those eight percent are doing eighty percent of the business out there and that's the whole point it's all about the follow up right so it's really critical and most people are not this isn't on their radar screens it's like you're not even thinking about it well this is one of the things that I share with folks it's it's okay I teach a lot of traction right it's one of the big bangs what we were doing our sales programs we teach water traction you have to be present in mind body and spirit and be very clear and get rid of all the emotional baggage about sales and interact with people monitor the good stuff to be clear all that stuff out and then they're like okay the raider rocking go rock and roll in the going the network in many no do there while they're doing there about a year or whatever it is their ankle whatever it is that these days and it's like okay Terry I'm not making any sales are how many times did you follow up did you call did you connect you just send an email well no I didn't do any of that Hey Lou so a lot of traction goes so far you must take inspired action yeah and that's where you come in that's right teaching people how to follow up at so what is do you believe that the easiest way to follow up his other email tax this tax thing I'm old school so I don't normally follow up by text for a phone call I I'm talker I prefer well I'm follow up in a phone call or follow up %HESITATION you sent me an email at least so what what do you what do you think it or whatnot thanks what do you share as the number one way of connecting with people well I'm a girl too and I believe picking up the phone is should be the first step most people don't most people send emails and I don't know about you but my inbox gets flooded and sometimes things get lost but when people leave me a message I listen to it almost immediately right I see a message that I listen to it so I totally believe that since you heard the statistics and most people aren't following up at all and the people who are following up our emailing if you call you'll rise above everyone else and people are gonna think wow this person actually took the time to call me right so you'll you'll rise above your competition so that for me is step one and then I used to email right after that but again people weren't responding so I shifted to texting and I would say ninety nine percent of the time people respond to my tax wow that's good that's that's really been working so I basically leave a similar message a shortened message %HESITATION as I did in the voicemail and people are responding so it's been really fabulous I will still recommend to send an email as the third touch point because if that person %HESITATION was busy all day and it's late at night and they can't call you back and they can't respond to your text is leaving they'll respond to an email and then you'll see where how people respond and that will show you their preferred method of communication and then you can continue on that way so okay do you were you just said Debbie at the very last piece about the preferred method of the client's communication can you repeat that please sure aren't yes said the way they respond we'll show you their preferred method of communication some people will you know feel better responding by email they get to their messages late and that's how they're going to respond right some people will respond like I said ninety nine percent of the people I'm texting are responding to tax they're not responding to the email so now I know that that there's that that's their preferred method of communication and that's the best way for me to reach them you have to be aware everybody's so different everybody's wired so differently they really really are now do you find a difference between and I'm sure he can carry us through this that means of this question in %HESITATION where one generation and we do things a specific way do you see a difference in millennials and how it is that they sell are there other entrepreneurial businesses work for the people that they work with I'm really not personally working with a lot of millennials but my clients are and they're finding that it's all texting like they don't ever pick up a phone call right so again you gotta tune into your market and if you're dealing with millennials they're into texting or Instagram or whatever you know they're they're not they're not picking up the phone and calling people back my clients back seven network via Instagram how does that happen for those of us of a certain age who knows I happen to know how Instagram works but it's not one of my fondest media platforms I just miss it might be a handful networking ruby and Instagram it's not so much that they're networking they're just you know promoting what they're doing and I'm not in an Instagram expert so that's not it's out of my wheelhouse but I just hear that that's what they're doing that's where they're going so what is what do you see from where you set as being the number one challenge with follow up %HESITATION there's so many challenges the only one here one now when I give a jury three iron here that I can share so the first thing that I see and this is really kind of an epidemic is that people tell me they use this word they just say I wing it I don't prepare what I'm gonna say when I call you by don't prepare before I go to a networking that what I'm gonna say I'm when I'm meeting with somebody or you know to present what I do I just wing it so they're not preparing the second thing I know it's a big one check back a big one I know I know I know right but they don't think about like this stuff is like there's all this stuff that we know that we don't know but then there's all the stuff that we don't know that you don't know and when it comes to follow up and sales so much falls into that later that latter category people it's just not on the radar screen they just never what I find in the reason I'm doing this I'm so passionate about it Terry's because I see people who love what they do they're so gifted they have such a great offering of a product or service whatever it is that they offer to people but they've never been taught follow up skills or sales skills and so on they're the best kept secret right so that's why it's like people are putting this %HESITATION as the last part making this the last priority so getting back to your question so the number two issue I see is that people have these looming believes %HESITATION that come up that stop them from following up and the biggest one I hear is %HESITATION they're free to being self you're pushing so that's the second thing and it stops them and I help people with the whole mindset shift around at a lot of it's just mindset a lot of it's knowing what to do and what to say and those living believes will drop off if they have really deep limiting beliefs and I send them to people like you you know the people who do the inner work because I don't do I get people with more practical things that they can do and some daily practices as well but if they've got some deep lifelong issue then I refer them to someone who can help them with that and then the third thing that's huge and it's costing people so much money and I call it the number one leak on in people's system is that they're not consistently asking for referrals gosh yes it's and they're sitting on a goldmine and nobody's asking or they're not asking consistently I mean I just hear this over and over and over again whenever I speak I ask you know raise your hand if you consistently ask your clients referrals no one's hand goes up so those are three key areas %HESITATION when it was the fourth one two is they don't have a system in place in a technology I was just gonna say that you can't really beat me to it before you ask for one I gave you for that but they're all he issues okay so and that system is huge so I'm not so I'm gonna ask you this should be reversed should the system be number one sure that they know what to do and how to do it well they don't know what to do well there's when I say system I'm talking to two different things first there is the technology there's the CRM customer relationship management system and email marking system everything is stored so that is number one to get that but then knowing what to do and what to say and how often a follow up and what methods of communication that's where I come in okay that was second system okay yes so there's two system but yes people when I when I start working with me step one is get your system and I help them figure out which is the best fit for them based on their business model and where they're at in their business and what their needs are yes you've got to have a system if not you're gonna baggies and boxes full of cards and notebooks and you know there's a gal a friend of mine I've been talking to for six years about getting this year and she finally got one and it's a game changer for her it's going to well everything yeah she was so much so when you get that business card in it things are very different today with technology so your do you have a business card or did you will bump you know on the phone or you know whatever what is your first name for me I love the business card because I can touch it I can look at it and I can remember coming from Asian in it yeah I do my thing so but that's me what do you what are you finding in today's day and age that people are doing what what is the easiest way for them to get all their contact information to put into this year and because I know for me because I you know and it does take time %HESITATION you know chip card and mission and better not is there an easier way to do that there are easier ways it depends on where people are with their business so when I first started my business I didn't have a budget at all to hire anybody to do anything for me so I would come back from the networking event and I would put their information right into my CRM I would tag them for the event that I'm not that mad and out with whether they were interested in being out classed you know client potentially or maybe they're good JV partner power partner so I wouldn't have been very interested not age whatever they were interested them as I eat you know you grew and my business and I always recommend that at certain point you've got to get someone to help you because it is not your genius to spend time adding people into a CRM you want to spend time doing what only you can do even if you don't think you can afford it you can pay somebody eight dollars an hour in the Philippines for one hour a month to do this for you or yeah and then you gradually increase that's what I did so how did the information during the Philippines so I would scan the cards and send it to them I would put the cards on a scanner and send it to them and people don't I haven't you know copy machines fax machine if you don't have one of those that just take a picture of each card one at a time and just send it to them okay we have done some of this year Ms have software where you can scan it in the information I was writing I was just going to go into that yes in my system I can take a picture of the card in it and it enters them automatically into the system and that is the best because then you can just do it immediately I I actually do it at the event I just take the picture and then I created the tags for the event in advanced and I just tag them and they're down there in the system so that is the easiest way to do it so it's about finding a CRM that has that system in it yeah warrant that has one that can connect with a scanner because with zap your now you can connect technologies together alright so you just have to find out so whatever serum you're using ask if they have a scanner our business card scanner and built in and it's not which one day can affiliate with I think it's nice to know nice so %HESITATION we're getting close to a time what we'll need to close off because I know you have another event that you need to get your very busy lady and I want to make sure that you're there on time because that's where things about networking we want to be there on time it's important to do that because if you get there early you get the scope out who's all going to be their number one on the bench it's a it's a live event and I know for myself on those things right yep there early Sitton acquiring get relaxed June and get clear and then go in and have a good time and there's all these different networking things that you and I could talk about forever but what I know is that you have a couple things to share with it awaken the possibilities audience that I'm really excited about it one of them is in the band and the other one is eight we have a quiz that we took in school folks now it's more of an assessment so it's sad it's a fact like in less than ten minutes you're gonna learn you're going to see you know where you're doing really well with follow up where you're going to score yourself high and then where potential clients in income might be slipping through the cracks so it's a real eye opener everyone who tells me that they've taken at when we got to talk they just say wow I learned so much about myself so so you can go to power up biz quiz B. I. Z. Q. U. I. Z. dot com power up biz quiz dot com you'll get the results immediately as well I and if you want to hop on a call to discuss them afterwards we can do that as well so the cookies take the quiz it's it you'll learn a lot about yourself thank you so much for being here today I really appreciate it and I know that that be waking the possibilities audience has a lot to gain from the words that you have shared with us so there's a lot there's a lot to networking there's a lot to sales but when you finally get it altogether if he becomes a major and just part of your argument it's wrong so trust me it can it's it is something that can be learned and and then there was a great person to be able to do that show me out again thank you so very much for being here into our waking the possibilities financed please dryness and basically group awaken the possibilities we're gonna be talking about all kinds of things and leadership life and business but I'm glad to have you come on in there too and talk about stuff so rains there at Facebook dot com forward slash groups forward slash or weaken the possibilities for to bringing more bringing cast those day with us and we will be seeing you at the next not if you're at your best day ever thank you for having you're welcome See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

After 49 Episodes, Mike and Larry get the chance to describe the F.I.R.E. movement and what it means to be financially independent.  They help you figure out your why of F.I. This is a must listen episode. Show transcription: Episode 29 Financial Independence, Retire Early.mp3   [00:00:00] Welcome to the Real Estate Marathon podcast. Your Guide in the Race to Financial Freedom. The Real Estate Investing and Sound Financial Practices. This podcast is for anyone interested in learning more about real estate, investing, personal finances and a new take on traditional retirement. Now here are your host, Larry B0 and Mike Moe.    [00:00:24] What's going on, everybody? Welcome to the Real Estate Marathon podcast. Your guide on the race to financial freedom through real estate investing in sound financial practices. My name is Mike Bell, one of the hosts of the show joined today, as always, Mr. Fisher.    [00:00:39] I'm doing well, Mike. I'm doing very well tonight.    [00:00:41] I know that you're extremely excited because this is an episode that you've been looking forward to for about forty nine episodes, I would think.    [00:00:50] Yes, I am super pumped for this episode. So what are we going to be talking about today, Mike? Well, man, after 50 plus episodes or so, we are finally going to dove deep into the financial independence. What is it? What does it mean? How do you get there? You know, when we started this, you know, we talked about, you know, obviously the name is a real estate marathon podcast for a reason. But when we started this, we talked a lot about, you know, having this be a really good blend of real estate investing and personal finance topics. You know, I think we've we've done a decent job, you know, going over the credit scores, going over a lot of that, you know, setting that strong financials, you know, foundation that we talk about and we delve deep into, you know, a handful of topics around real estate. And now after like I said, after almost 50 plus episodes, we're going to dove deep into financial independence.    [00:01:43] What it means, you know, we're doing five, one on one. So finding independence is one of the posts you put earlier in the podcast on social media was your Wi-Fi.    Larry [00:01:54] Yeah, I like that. And everybody has to have a reason for why they want financial independence. And once you discover that reason, it gives you the motivation to pursue it actively.    Larry [00:02:04] And that's what we're here to do. We're going to define it. And really deep dove into it. So I am surprised you can even sleep last night. We absolutely did.    [00:02:14] I'm omgpop man, and I'm glad we're finally getting around to this. You know, and it's it's a subject that we've we've touched on or it's a term, I should say, that we've used in a ton of episodes.    [00:02:23] So I'm glad we're finally getting to it being given it's a given it the justice it deserves. You really kind of dove deep. So we're going to you know, we're we're going to cover the definition. Obviously, we're in a covered the history of, you know, fights. The basic principle is how did she do it and resources to us to explore more and dove deeper on your own. So it's it's going to be a good episode. And I'm fun. And it's the first time that you and I have gotten to a riff. You're on our own. You know, we've had a ton of interviews, last handful of episodes.    [00:02:50] We haven't that. We've had a solo Soad an hour. It's just us on a topic. So be good to get back to that as well.    [00:02:56] Yeah. Yeah, I enjoy that a lot because I think we we offer a lot of good information, a lot of good material to the listeners and it's great to have the interviewers.    [00:03:06] But one of the things I enjoy hearing the most is my own voice and they have not heard enough of it lately.    [00:03:14] I like hear my own joke. So we'll see if I can throw a few of those in here.    [00:03:17] Oh, yeah, yeah. I loved some bad jokes myself. So. Yes, well, you want to start with the warm up so we can get Guiteau limber and loose ready to run this marathon.    [00:03:27] Let's do it, man. And this is going to be a marathon. It's going to be a get up. So here it is.    [00:03:31] It is. We're talking about the fire movement and fire stands for financial independence.    [00:03:36] Retire early. And the fight the fire movement is essentially the goal of planning for financial independence. So you have the option to retire early or at any time you would like to.    [00:03:48] Yeah. Yeah. It sits exactly what we're talking about today. And, you know, some people get to it kind of thrown off by the R E on that term, you know.    [00:03:58] So people some people like just the they don't like to retire early. Sometimes they retire term gives kind of a negative connotation or you're just gonna be, you know, sitting on the beach and sipping mai tais, which isn't necessarily the case for most people who reach financial independence. But either way, it's exactly, exactly what we're talking about today.    [00:04:18] And I've been known to take some liberties with the army of fire. You know, it could be a financial independence. Retiring is excellent. You know, any any of that kind of thing. Real estate. You know, I take liberties. What it actually does mean the retire early.    [00:04:33] So you know what? Where do you want to start? You know, we're we get really deep dove into it. You want to cover some of the history. Maybe the basic principles of it.    [00:04:43] Well, you know, so let's just expand a little bit more on on fire. So there's a couple of different terms that it can be referred to on a pretty regular basis.    [00:04:51] So fire is probably one of the most common ones which you already defined as that financial independence. Retire early fi or F5, financial independence, financial freedom, the hundred percenters, which is basically means 100 percent of your expenses is covered by passive income. But essentially all these things mean that saying that all mean that you can hundred ten, 11 percent cover your living expenses is with the income that is coming in off your passive portfolio, a passive investments, whatever. Maybe whether it's real estate, whether it's stocks, bonds, whatever your investments is. They all mean the same thing that you made such a cover, your living expenses and your main expenses for life.    [00:05:33] And I'm actually in this position right now with my passive income portfolio, with being able to cover all my expenses.    [00:05:41] I could retire right now and and not lose any ground in my financial livelihood. I guess you could say and this is very freeing. It gives you options. And that's one of the things that people seek is freedom, freedom, freedom. And the FI gives you that freedom. And when we actually in the last few episodes, we've been talking a lot about the financial retirement number, and the number is in an age which we defined in one of the last episodes. It's just a number of how much how many dollars you need to have monthly coming in. So you don't have to work that eight to five or nine to five full time grind the rat race, if you will.    [00:06:24] Yeah. And there you're probably the prime example of why that already doesn't necessarily always apply. So you got that fi- and it's almost like financial independence work optional.    [00:06:33] You're still working. But tomorrow you don't have to. Like that's kind of the options that this gives you. You know, it's kind of like I said, I think a handful of times on this, you know, this this show, I got a you know, a nine-to-five today that they currently enjoy. And I get to do some on energy. And, you know, I'm not one of those people that hates their job day in and day out. Right. But, you know, in five years, I don't know what's going to happen in five years. I think I use this exact term before, you know, my boss could come to me tomorrow and say, you're scrubbing toilets for the next week. You know, obviously in I.T. this could happen, but they could. And I you know, not being at financial independence, what do I do? I guess Guptill is right because I'm dependent on that paycheck right now. So financial independence work optional. You don't have to retire. You don't have to stop working. You don't have to go sit on the beach. But it gives you options. You know, I'm talking to one of these young guys at one of these investment events. The handful of months ago. And he kind of said the same thing is like, I love my job. So why do I care about financial independence?    [00:07:34] Don't care about, you know, that whole movement. It's like, man, things change real quick. And, you know, I think we're in a position right now currently in our current situation that we got going on here, mid 20s, Tony, where a lot of people would be better off. Have they had some, you know, passive income coming in?    [00:07:51] Yeah. Yeah. And you bring up a good point where we are with my my financial independence is it is work optional. And part of the reason, you know, people are saying, why?    [00:08:02] Why should I care about financial independence? I enjoy my 9 to 5. Well, financial independence. What that allows you to do it. It allows you to build wealth twice as fast, because if you've got dual income, you've got the the portfolio income, which is equal to or higher than what your regular paycheck is. And then you got that weekly paycheck coming in. You can actually get to, well, wealthy. You're rich even faster if you take that money and use it is as in investments or however you choose to use it. We choose real estate. But if you have that financial independence. No. On top of your regular income, that's just it's brings a lot of a lot of wealth to bear at your situation.    [00:08:49] So, yeah, it it's it's just a numbers game and it's just taken the numbers and extrapolating. I know, you know, I used to always hear, you know, one of the best things to do was, you know, you know, if you're married, you get two incomes. You should save 100 percent of one person's income and just live off the other one.    [00:09:04] Well, in essence, if you are five or if you build up a portfolio of, you know, whether it be rentals or whether it be stocks or bonds, that provides you enough pass, it could provide, you know, passive income to live on. Well, essentially, you have two incomes. You're just one hundred cent investing one and then you're living off the other. So it's almost doing the same thing, but better because you're building this investment portfolio.    [00:09:26] Yeah. Yeah. And like you said, if if my boss came to me today and said you've got a you've got to clean those toilets, I have the option of saying I really decided I didn't want to do that today.    [00:09:37] Yeah, that's. We'll get to that in the basic principles of fi. That's what we like to lovingly referred to as F-U money.    [00:09:44] F-U money, the toilet principle. And I'm still reeling over you quoting your own term, that thewall Wauchula theWall Financial. Linda Pence's financial independence work optional.    [00:09:56] I like Eminem. Yeah. His trademark that themwho coined to fuel this is a new thewall movement. There's some other other variations of FYE that I want to touch on real quick.    [00:10:08] And that's fact fire and lehne fire. And essentially these are just the, you know, lean fire is you have enough passive income coming in to cover your basic basic basic living expenses. So you can eat. You can. You could. Your mortgage, but you're not living the life you want to. It's not like you're going oh, it's not like you're traveling. You're not living the life even that you're living. Right now, you would have to make some significant cutbacks. But you wouldn't make it right. So that's lean fire. That fire is kind of the opposite. That where it's, you know, you have more than enough to do it. You know, I wouldn't say extravagantly, but you can travel. You can, you know, live above your means that you're even doing now. I'm completely on your passive income. So I moved in last year living large. Right. So I thought fire.    [00:10:53] Fire. I like it. That's that's the way to be. Get enough of that passive income. And there's not really much you you don't necessarily have to live large way. You could if the if the mood struck you.    [00:11:05] Yeah. Exactly. There's a kid. You can take trips or travel or you know, do whatever you wherever you may be. But you're not you're not living like pinching pennies.    [00:11:14] Right.    [00:11:14] So these are as you see with the pictures of the Lamborghinis and the private jets out there, they're definitely fat firing that straight away.    [00:11:21] And it's straight wealth, man. That's that's wealthy for sure. But yeah.    [00:11:26] So we actually move on or you want to dove in and anything else on those, you know, the FatFighters, when I think I think a lot of people are trying to get to the lean fire is when you first achieve financial independence, you have lean fire.    [00:11:40] You don't necessarily have to retire. But you can. And just get by. But like you said, that fat fires, what dual income that I'm working towards right now is.    [00:11:50] Yeah. Yes. But I'll give you a I guess I'll give you an example right now. So, you know, if you're somebody who on a regular day to day basis is living off about, say, let's say six grand a month and you take a look at all your expenses and you realize you can cut out, you know, you can cut your grocery bill, you cut gas down if you know, if you had to.    [00:12:08] And then you could you could live at, say, forty two hundred bucks a month. Your lean fire would be forty two hundred bucks a month. I mean, you could live. You could pay your bills. You wouldn't be you know, you wouldn't be going hungry, yoga, losing your house or going bankrupt.    [00:12:20] So it's very nice in that same example. You know, let's say 10 grand a month. Is that advice? You know, it's well, but beyond that, you know, that six grand that you're accustomed to, you can splurge a little bit on travel alert. You know, what have you per month and you're good to go there.    [00:12:37] And the fat fire, my goal, just so everybody knows, is that taken that month or two off and just just traveling for an entire couple months, you know, that's serious.    [00:12:47] Well, my hope is that fires.    [00:12:50] But we got to go. We've got to get a handful of these people. Oh, there's so many people that take these many retirements that I've listened to where, you know, that worked for three or five years.    [00:12:59] And they'll take six months out because they can because it built this this this machine. And that is their portfolio that can that can, you know, sustain them for more than six months.    [00:13:11] But they'll just do that as a mini retirement so they don't wait until they're, you know, fifty or fifty five years old. And you only need to wait till you're fully, you know, that fire. You can just do it. If you have a if you union fire and you have a little bit of an essay that you're comfortable with it, you take them in your retirement and MBNA.    [00:13:27] Yeah. And one of the terms and I think it was Jack Bosch on his episode said, was that forever cash? You know, it's an excellent concept. I love that forever cash flow out, you know. So you want to jump into the history and file. But where did the word that term get coined?    [00:13:45] Yeah. And we weren't willing to spend too much time here, man. But it did start better. It is known to have started right around in the mid 80s by a couple, Vicki, Robin and Joe Domínguez. They wrote a book.    [00:13:57] They wrote a book, not a bike, pirates' and bikes, but they wrote a book called Your Money Your Life. And the core concepts of this book is that most people go through life unknowingly trading their time for money. So essentially, you guys, everybody, most of the people here, they show up at a job every day and you spend eight, nine, 10 hours at that job and you're essentially trading now or you realize for certain things in your life. Basically, it's a trade off, right?    [00:14:24] Yeah. Yeah. And that's I mean, a lot of people when they and this is how I run my finances, you actually think to yourself when when you're looking to splurge on something or you're trying to decide whether something is in need or want.    [00:14:38] I generally calculate how much time I would have to spend to make the money to pay for that.    [00:14:45] So which is it? That's a great thing to do, man, because when you look at it like that, when you kind of put that that on its head as far as well that 400 at our and that's easy.    [00:14:54] I can I can handle that. I can make those payments. But when you kind of put that on its head and say, well, how many hours your life are you trading for that hour payment, well, then it kind of becomes real. There's a little bit more personal. And I wrote an example here and see if I can get it straight. This is a week or so ago. But so if you think about that 400 car payment, which is not I mean, that's pretty average for people these days, I'd say maybe that's even a little bit on the low end. But 400 bucks a month is your car. If been making bread around the national average of $50000 a year, you know, after taxes, you always gotta come. You know, factory taxes, because when you think about it, you make 50 grand a year. Sure. But you are paying in taxes and all that money. And then when you are buying something like this car, you're also paying taxes on it. So how much you truly walking away with? So let's say after taxes, you are going to forty three hundred bucks a year. So a 40 hour work week say that you work out of 40 hour work week, you're averaging 20 bucks an hour or twenty dollars and 70 cents an hour you're walking away with. It would take you 19 hours. Nineteen point three hours a month to trade for that car. So essentially, you think you work Monday, Tuesday and half of Wednesday and the first week of every month. That is your time that you traded for that car. And when you think about it like that, especially when you start thinking about, you know, this mortgage payment of two, three, four, five thousand dollars a month, you're trading how many hours or weeks or days year your life for that essentially every month. And when it adds up, you want to make sure that you're trading your time for things that actually mattered and helps put things in perspective a little bit.    [00:16:29] It does. It does. In one of the things I kind of throw a little bit of a subjective part of that as well. You know, I look at it like, do I buy a car that gives me nineteen point three, two hours worth of enjoyment for that?    [00:16:43] Because it's it's a input output kind of thing. So I'm putting my nineteen point three, two hours. But if I get 50 hours worth of enjoyment on my will, say like a Corbat or whatever I decided to buy, it becomes worth it. But if if you're buying, you know, I don't know what kind of little tiny, you know, card doesn't go very fast and you get maybe an hour and a half of enjoyment. And it's just for getting you back and forth to work. Then, you know, it might not be a tradeoff, but you definitely do need a car.    [00:17:16] So, yeah. But so you bring up a good point that in the whole I think the whole reasoning behind looking at it like this is it's looking at what am I spending money on? And does it truly bring value to be it like I am not a frugal person. So that's why I went at a time when we talk about budgeting, when we talk about debt. Like I see those cars. I'm like, yeah, I want that. So, like, I have to look at that and say, does that. Is that worth trading my time for it? And some of it does splurging on those nice things. It's worth it to me. And some of it isn't. And that's that's why looking at it and taking a true look at your expenses and you're spending. I was able to cut a bunch of expenses just by, you know, in hindsight thinking of how much value I got out of those expenses and shift those into the things that I actually got value. I think that's the power I find that really makes you look at where's your money going and does it align with your values and what you find beneficial and you like you enjoy, you know, getting time and spending time on those things that you spend your money on.    [00:18:17] And I think this is a good time for the credit score. KING To jump on a different side note, you know that that example you had would cost you nineteen point three, two hours a month.    [00:18:28] Imagine if you had like a four hundred credit score that could number could easily jump to 30 hours or 30 hours a month and you're paying more for your credit. So, you know, the higher your credit score, the lower the amount of hours that you have to cover purchases. So, yeah.    [00:18:46] And you know what I like about the credit score. And you know that I don't like the credit score very much. But I do like the credit score.    [00:18:52] The fact that you can you can maintain and you can you can get a good credit score without spending a lot of money. Like I always feel people and you know, you've heard my complaints about the credit score that I don't think it's a very good indication of how financial savvy you charge because you're able to borrow a bunch of money and pay it back. And that doesn't mean you're good with your money, but you can do it without spending money. And you can you can build that up without going and racking it into debt. Like like we talked about, you can get a credit card and you can put your you know, if you're smart about it, you can just put your next year and your money that you would have spent anyways on that card to get those points into build up that credit and not go into more debt than you weren't expecting to. Yeah.    [00:19:35] And that's definitely another benefit. So but it looks like you have listed a few few different resources to help people deal with FI. I mean, the first one you've got listed here is the Mr. Money Mustache Blog 2011 net. Yeah. Yeah.    [00:19:51] So we went we went a little off track of the history. You know, it started with Vicki Robin and Joe Dominguez with that book, Your Money, Your Life. And then it really exploded. 2011/2012 with with the blog that you you mentioned, Mr. Money Mustache. It's a lot of people's kind of first foray into, you know, financial independence or what it might actually mean to, you know, go this unconventional route and be able to retire early. So there's an article that was one of his most famous one that's called The Shockingly Simple Math Behind Early Retirement, which we linked to here and we can link to in the show notes. It breaks down in a unbelievably easy way to understand how you can retire at 30, at 35, at 40 if you truly want to. It kind of breaks down that it is just a numbers game and makes it super easy for people to comprehend.    [00:20:45] Retirement just. Well, math problem. And yeah, you know, math and realize it tells you exactly what you need how to get there.    [00:20:53] And once you get there, the numbers work out. It's it's glorious. People lie.    [00:20:58] Numbers don't lie.    [00:21:01] That's how it goes. So, yeah.    [00:21:03] If you guys haven't heard Mr. Money Mustache, you know, he bragged he was one of the really the pioneers of bringing, you know, the financial independence, financial freedom fighter or whatever the heck you want to call it to a little bit more of a mainstream with his blog. And then there's a handful of other ones that choose F choose F, I guess, which is phenomenal podcasts. They also got a book I A Blueprint to Financial Independence. Remember correctly. And then the bigger pockets, money, podcasts. All of these are really the core players in the financial independence education sector. I would say, you know, out there and have done a ton of bringing all these principles and these concepts to the mainstream.    [00:21:44] Yeah. And the nice thing about all these blogs and podcasts is they basically put a put a term and a face on what I was already doing.    [00:21:54] It took me 15 years to get to the point where I was financially secure and and had my credit score and everything fixed. And I started listening to these guys. I'm like, you know, why are you do that? And I didn't realize there was a rule to cover it.    [00:22:08] This is what, you know, you'll be even before where obviously this guy really popular in 2011, 2012 started to take off. You know, obviously there are people doing it and practicing this. But I think what you know, what that goes to say is there are still ways that you can even improve even further. There's not a lot of these are just minor, minor tweaks that over the long run really, really, really make a difference to these different like tax strategies that these different savings tactics and things like air investment strategies that really they seem I knew in the in the in the real time here, but, you know, expand that over a five or seven or eight year investing term. And the numbers show how much of a difference this can make. And it is really tactical ways about going about your finances.    [00:22:59] And once you start getting getting a handle on everything, it generally falls into place. You have to you have to get this stuff set the the basics before you can run, you know, when and where you can run.    [00:23:12] Yeah, 100 percent.    [00:23:13] And there is there's almost these different levels of as you kind of dove down into the financial independence rabbit hole, there's these different levels of, I guess, educate educators and a levels of education. So if you think about, you know, Dave Ramsey is one that I know a lot of people mention in is a is one that I started out with. You know, I started out listening to it. You know, it kind of led me to the next one, the next one to the next one. And Dave Ramsey, you'll see a lot of people in the financial independence community, starting with Dave Ramsey. He's got super good principles. He teaches a lot of the basic money concepts. But when you look at it, some of it is just too black-And-White. Like he's got this like, you know, you hate debt. Right. Like, he just absolutely can can't stand debt and says you shouldn't buy real estate unless unless you can buy a cash, which I mean, and leverage is one of the amazing tools of real estate and amazing tools and investments if done right. So I think you'll find people start with like the Dave Ramsey or some of the other basics and then graduate once they learn those. They kind of. They graduate to some other concepts of different educators and the financial independence world.    [00:24:25] Now, I see Dave Ramsey as being the person that gives you a healthy respect for the power that the negative aspects of debt. And then once you learn to have a healthy respect for debt and you use it wisely, then a debt can be a huge tool in your tool belt.    [00:24:41] Yeah. And let's be honest, like you think about like you listen to the Dave Ramsey podcast and you listen to the people that call in. You know, he's got these millionaires that call in and it'll work.    [00:24:51] If you want to. And believe me, I was on this train at first. You know, when I when I started listening to this and when I started getting into this movement, you know, worked twenty five years and spend your super frugal and don't spend a lot of money and save as much as you can into mutual funds. And in twenty five years, you'll be a millionaire.    [00:25:09] That will work. One hundred percent that will work. The problem is, I don't want to do it in twenty five years. I don't want to do it in like five years. So there are others tactics and other strategies for it. You know, those goals. So it all comes back to that. So it's a it's a good start. But then I think people kind of graduate from there.    [00:25:27] Yeah. Twenty five years is a very long time to get to be a millionaire. Bye bye. Yeah. Scrimping and saving pennies and things.    [00:25:35] Yeah. And it's like I don't want to pinch pennies or twenty five years.    [00:25:38] I just want to do the same page with that, Mike. You know, it's a lot of things I don't want to work for sixty five years. For ten years of fun before. That it has a way.    [00:25:48] So that's why we're here trying to help as many people as we can to get that. Get the heck. Yeah. 25 year millionaire do it.    [00:25:56] I mean, there's studies. I mean, obviously. So a lot of the financial independence blogs, podcasts, things like that. It all depends on your savings rate, which we'll talk about in a little bit here. But there are case studies, people doing it in two or three years as case studies of people doing it in nine or 10 years. I think on average, people can get to this five point anywhere from five to 10 years, depending on how much you make, depending on your savings rate and really depending on how crazy are about it. You know, some people don't mind being super, super frugal and cutting back down to the bare bone and saving, you know, 60 percent, 70 percent or 80 percent of income. Other people, you know, totally cool will do 20, 30 percent and just add a couple years under, you know, the time it take you to get there. And either approach is fine. It's just kind of what fits you type thing.    [00:26:43] I tell everybody, you took me forty nine years to get to financial independence. It was forty seven years of trial and error. And I wasn't doing that correctly.    [00:26:53] Yeah.    [00:26:53] And so if you can take that and if you can use some of that education that's out there, you know, just so much education out there, you might go to cut down that learning curve more.    [00:27:04] Yeah. I'm hoping to condense my forty seven years of trial and error and help these folks in in listening to the podcast do it in a couple years, so.    [00:27:12] Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Man, you. Yeah. I can't even tell you how many resources are out there, podcasts and books. And, you know, obviously that's that can be an issue, too, because it's almost overwhelming how much stuff is out there.    [00:27:25] And it's just it's like it's just like the health industry and some of the stuff contradict each other. Some of the you know, this this guru says X and Scooter says Y. And there's really no easy way to navigate that other than you've got a headache. Go out there and explore and take what works for you and discard the rest and keep keep going and figure out what works for you.    [00:27:45] So, you know, and you guys are all listening to my favorite podcast resource. So keep that up with that.    [00:27:54] The real estate marathon is my favorite resource. That's right. It's a dad joke. So a lot of people miss him.    [00:28:05] So you can jump into the basic five principles and rules of thumb.    [00:28:09] Yeah. Let's do it.    [00:28:10] So the 4 percent rule, the 4 percent rule is essentially you need a hammer. So essentially you 4 percent of your nest egg you can live on essentially forever. So if you have a million dollars, you take out 4 percent of that. That's what, $40000. Right. So you could essentially take out four percent of that million dollars. And there is a 97 percent chance, likelihood that that principle will last or that that nest egg will last forever. It's based on what the called the Trinity studies, which is this massive study of basically of what you can take out and with based on the returns in the whole other factors, the likelihood of it lasting forever, essentially. You never having it touch that principle. So based on that, the four percent rule, it's kind of been this rule of thumb being, you know, once you reach that's that 4 percent rule, you're essentially for. So my expenses are $40000 a year or, you know, adjusted for taxes. Then you're a little over a million dollars nest egg. If I'm doing stocks or bonds or whatever that it's that stock portfolio, then that would be your number.    [00:29:22] Yeah. And as everybody knows, it's one of the one of the fears of people that they're they're going to outlive their money. And that's not a good retirement. If you end up having enough money to cover five years and you live, you know, twenty five years of retirement, you're you're broke in five years. Then what do you do?    [00:29:40] Yeah. Right. Yep. The other way to do it is just take your expenses that you need. So if you need $40000 a year to live. Times it by twenty five. It's the same thing, but it's just like anything. It's a rule of thumb. So it does not. You know, there are there are more conservative folks out there who might who would say it's probably more like three and a half percent and would also say that it largely depends on what happens in the market. The first handful of years, if you were Tirina, because you you know, if you're a tired day one and you start drying on your portfolio in the market immediately takes a dove, say 20 percent, I don't know. Like it just didn't stop 25 percent, then that way you can't take that 4 percent off that original balance. You have to then adjust for what the principle is. Sorry. What's your your total portfolio is and take 4 percent off that new. Right. Right. So in sequence return risk essentially is what they refer to. That is what it is a good rule of thumb, at least while you're traveling on the road to fi and as you're trying to. The goal to shoot for is that 4 percent rule.    [00:30:49] Yep, yep. And then the next thing you've got there is the savings rate. Now, that's the amount of savings that you need to retire. Financial independence, is that what that means?    [00:31:00] No, it's it's essentially. What percentage of your income are you saving today? So if you're making said one hundred thousand dollars a year and you're saving ten thousand dollars a year, whether it be to invest in stocks or to invest in real estate, you know, your savings rate is 10 percent.    [00:31:17] We've talked on the show a few times where we think, you know, in normal in a society, you hear about somebody saving 10 percent of their income and they get that boy.    [00:31:26] And everybody is super pumped in the firewall world. You know, it's more like 40 or 50 percent. It is usually the average. People are saving upwards of 40, 50, 60, sometimes 70, 80 percent of their income just in investing that tire on it that they're saving and then just living on that 10 or 20 or 30 percent of their income. You know, that's a little bit extreme depending on how much money you make. But I think 50 percent is kind of that that nice balance, at least in my my perspective.    [00:31:55] To get to from a savings rate on the savings rate, like you said, if you can save 50 percent.    [00:32:00] That's where for me personally with the portfolio, that's where my portfolio comes in because I make as much in my portfolios as my wife and I do working full time. So we we live off of our full time income and then basically save 50 percent of our income, which is the portfolio income. We put that right in the savings. So that's going to help effectively get us to being millionaire status a lot sooner.    [00:32:25] So you're essentially saving a 100 percent and you're able to 100 percent of your working income. You were able to save because of that, because of that rental income that you had coming in.    [00:32:36] Yeah. And then once we get to a level where we can invest even more into another expanding their portfolio, another duplex or try to flekser multifamily, then that just keeps increasing the amount. So at some point we're going to be saving 200 percent of our of our income.    [00:32:54] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And definitely powerful, powerful, powerful thing.    [00:32:59] Now, what's this next item on their mind? Inefficiencies in taxes, spending and investments wasn't necessarily like a rule of thumb.    [00:33:07] This is more of a kind of a general guiding principle.    [00:33:10] You know, when you get into it, like I said with earlier, with the Dave Ramsey is the world has got really super good basic basic financial literacy. Right. That's the foundation. And then financial the five principles, the fire principles typically are a level up from that.    [00:33:29] And they they a lot of times all kinds of shit like that on those minor, minor efficiency's that really make a big difference in the end. A lot of my around taxes.    [00:33:39] So how can you max out your tax tax deferred savings, things like your phone fallen case, things like HSA or MAX, maximize tax benefits, do things like real estate.    [00:33:51] And then on the I guess on the withdrawal, you know, maximizing your tax burden by doing things like Rothenberg's and Ladders. You make it backdoor Roth contributions and things like that.    [00:34:03] Now, these are kind of more advanced financial principles that you can look into and get details on, but it really comes down to expanding or making those those improvements on the margins. So, you know, you got your basics and then fight typically goes above and beyond. And it makes those minor adjustments, like you said, seem minor, but make a huge difference in the this category.    [00:34:28] Here is it reminds me of the saying that somebody I heard a long time ago and I don't remember where I heard it's from.    [00:34:34] Are we going to I'm probably gonna busher. It might have been Robert Kiyosaki and rich dad. Poor dad. But he said it's not about how much money you make, it's about how much money you keep. Yeah, and that actually plays right into the efficiency's in tax. And his taxes and spending because you you actually if you can reduce your spending and reduce your tax burden, you're going to be able to keep more of your money regardless of how much money you make. You can use that to get to be millionaire status or even, you know, even if you're just shooting for fi doesn't necessarily have to be millionaire status. But you know that personally is what I'm shooting for.    [00:35:08] Yeah. I mean, when you eat it makes it so, so worth it to dove into this and figure out how you can how you can truly make get the most bang for your buck. You know, somebody wants that. And again, it's kind of the same thing you just said as a quote there somewhere. I can't remember who said as I apologize, I'm not giving credit.    [00:35:25] But there's one line in the tax code that says you have to pay taxes on all your income. And then there's like thirty thousand lines in the tax code that gives you loopholes to not pay taxes on your income. So, you know, you say what you will about the wealth, the avoiding taxes, but they use the tax code to their benefit.    [00:35:43] You know, if you could do the same. Should so figure out where you can save or where you can reduce your tax burden. Get yourself educated so you can you can get your goals a lot faster and keep more of your money that you make.    [00:35:57] Yeah. Yeah, that's and that's actually a very powerful thing. Thirty thousand versus 1. So. Yeah, and how but when.    [00:36:03] And that's only one thing that says you got to pay out pay taxes.    [00:36:07] Every other line in the tax code is loopholes on how to not pay taxes. So why the heck once you take advantage of that as a real estate man, as you and I know the tax the tax benefits from owning real estate. Q Huge, huge. You know, there's there's doctors and lawyers who dumped some money into real estate, you know, not even caring about the performance just because it can completely simply wipe out a lot of their tax liability and all the income limit.    [00:36:33] So, yeah. And if you it's hard to tax season, you're now investing in real estate, right?    [00:36:40] Yeah. I don't look forward to tax season because of the paperwork, but I do. I'm with you.    [00:36:44] I'm a numbers guy. I'll sit there all day and add my wealth.    [00:36:48] That's probably a whole another whole topic around. Don't wait until last minute to do your tax paperwork, your expenses for your business and stuff like like I sometimes might have said that 48 hour I called the 48 hour tax marathon that you don't really know of.    [00:37:05] All right. Now, I'm curious, this one I I've heard the term before, but I've never really delved too far into it. What exactly are you meaning by stealth wealth, stealth wealth, mail.    [00:37:16] This is a millionaire next door and this is it. This is those people who can essentially buy your Tesla with cash if they wanted to. But don't they choose? Not that they choose to drive a five or six year old Camry or Kearl or whatever, you know, whatever your car choices. But the point is, is that they could spend a ton of money. And they're very, very wealthy, but they don't because they spend money on what they value and because they they've been able to get their wealth by not spending things on flashy things that don't make sense. So the stealth wealth community is one that that is they're they're interesting bunch, but essentially they're bunch of millionaires. You don't look like millionaires. They look like your average person who looks like your average working class person.    [00:38:00] So these are the folks that you see every now and then.    [00:38:03] You read an article about it where people say they were surprised that they were able to leave a 10 million dollar endowment fund to their college. Right. You know, they passed away. They left all this money and everybody's like they were just normal people. They cut coupons and they did, you know, they did whatever they had to do. And nobody knew that they were millionaires.    [00:38:22] Yeah. Yep, exactly. And I got to I mean, I got a I won't say I'm might with this camp, like I completely understand and respect the selfless community in a. Who's the guy who is a millionaire next door. Can't remember the name of that book. Yeah. Cameron. It's because I'm. I know I like my Teslas. I like my flashy stuff. But no, it's it's totally it's definitely a movement out there in a community out there that is very proud of what they do and the more power to them.    [00:38:53] And I clearly like my camper and my Corvette that I'm looking to try and have fun. Let me buy.    [00:39:00] Yeah, but it's the spending money on what makes it what makes you happy. It will make sense for you.    [00:39:05] Yeah. Well, and I was telling somebody that I'm trying to talk my way for.    [00:39:09] No, let me get a Corvette. Nice. We were playing a chess game of this, trying to get this Corvette out of the dealership and you'd be surprised if you start beating your wife in a chess game of getting the Corvette dealership, how quickly it turns into hardball playing hardball.    [00:39:25] So it was a firm. No, after that. So what you got to do, man, you just need to buy a pickup, one more property and half your tenants pay for your Corvette. One of the that thing and like five, six, seven hundred bucks a month, all you gotta do is find a couple of properties, a cash flow that ammo and go right there.    [00:39:42] I actually already I already started with that argument, had the properties all picked out and everything so nice to the network. But that's that my friend is is that is a principle.    [00:39:55] It wasn't a key Sakhi thing was that we're okay. So essentially have your your assets paid for your liabilities. Huge. Huge. Basic principle of investing. Right. So if you base if you want that Corvette, don't go work your 9 to 5 and use your your after tax dollars to buy that Corvette. And B car poor essentially. Right. Go buy an asset that pays you that amount of money and then that funds your fund, that buys your Corvette. You know what happens when that Corvette is paid off in five years? Your assets still paying you money and you still have that.    [00:40:33] So you go from having a Corvette bought for you to get in the race. Exactly. Or something else. Gomez, I got something else in mind. Let's say your assets paid for your liabilities when I had never. Have a lack of imagination. So I think of it. You. And the next term, they're the next principal, the F-U money. It's my fast favorite f you money, financial university money.    [00:41:00] That's why they say using your son. No, we won't. Because we we check that little box that says we're, you know, a clean, family friendly episode for our right as listeners. We want one explain this one too much and do so. But this is kind of the point before Lehne Fi that you have if enough money where if that boss comes in and says, look, you scrubbing toilets for the next six months because a sorry, that doesn't work for me. What a it changes the game. It changes the perspective that you can.    [00:41:28] You're in a position of power.    [00:41:29] You know, there's so many people who have written about this and about how they've enabled to, you know, after they got into this step, may have had the courage to go negotiate with their employer for a better work life balance or for more money for a better position, because just worried about where the employer says yesterday. Because you have that money that you can say, well, you know, that doesn't work for me. I respectfully decline and see you later because you have that money, whether it's six to eight to nine months expenses or, you know, the exact dollar amount is all personal. But it's whatever that that amount of money that you feel comfortable living off of for space with, you don't have a job.    [00:42:07] Yeah. I call this the forget your money because you get you and your money. Because when I leave work, I'm going to forget all about you because I can afford to live a mile.    [00:42:18] This is the type of money in the situations that we are in right now.    [00:42:22] Like I said, we're recording this March, April 20, when you get this little thing called COBRA 19 going on right now. And it's causing a lot of anxiety with people like we've talked about before, a lot of people don't have that for on their books that that stat that they say, you know, most Americans can't take a $400 expense without diving into credit or, you know, dip in it, you know, borrowing the money. What happens right now when hundreds and hundreds of millions of people are getting laid off from their job are now uncertain? You know, this isn't necessarily the F you money, but that same type of money that concept comes in where, you know, if you lose your job, can you survive for six, eight months with expenses? You have that rainy day fund built up. And I think, you know, I hope, you know, people who don't use this as an opportunity to realize how important it is and how much much stress that could take off. Yeah.    [00:43:16] Yeah. And it's times like this when I'm I'm glad we're able to save one hundred percent of our income through the portfolio, because that's just. Money will fall back on. So I can sit here and talk to you with the podcast without worrying. Yeah.    [00:43:32] Yeah. It's. That's that's a rare situation to be in.    [00:43:36] And I found I think it's a it's it's a good one man and I think this hopefully will well implore people to start looking at their finances and start looking at some alternative options, you know, saving the 10 percent. We'll get you there in 30 years, probably.    [00:43:52] But, you know, you really got to make some more aggressive moves in order to to get there any sooner. Really? To to put yourself in a better spot.    [00:44:01] Yeah. Well, next is the burning question that I have for you, Mike. How do you cheat, achieve my financial independence? How do you go about doing that?    [00:44:10] Well, this is kind of a loaded question, because it's it's it's a little tongue in cheek because it's kind of like, how do you be successful? There's a, I don't know, a million different ways that you could you could chuck an answer out for that. There's probably gonna be new ways invented every day and height, yet there is kind of the same thing as five, but the basics of fi are the same, which I think we've covered a couple times on this on this show in various episodes. Here's what you spend, you know, whatever you spend, and then here's what you make, whatever you makes it take, whatever you make, minus what you spend. And the point is, Tate, that needs to be as big as a number as possible and wisely invest the difference. So if I make $5000 a month and I spend $3000 a month, I get two thousand dollars surplus that I can invest in wisely with over a long period of time. The point is, the fastest way to achieve high is widening that gap, lowering those expenses, increasing that income, whichever you want to focus on, both want to focus on one either way, widening that gap and then wisely investing that difference over time consistently. So maybe you get A's and you go up to seven grand a month and maybe cut your expenses back a little bit more. But on twenty five months, it's just widening that gap and being smart with the difference.    [00:45:31] Yeah. And it's it's not rocket science. It's just a math problem. Yeah. You want to get there? The solution would be the biggest number you can and it's a subtraction problem.    [00:45:41] So you want the left side of it to be as big as possible. And the. Right side of it to be as little as possible.    [00:45:47] Yeah. And you know, it's comes down to it's not not sexy. There's a thousand different ways to do it. I mean, you could literally do that and just throw it in stocks that, you know, index funds, whatever you may.    [00:45:57] And you'll get there, you know, in the past. And the more you save the bad, you'll get there. You could put it in real estate and you can, in some people's opinion, get there faster. Like like what we think. But it's just making that that gap as big as possible and then investing in that that the difference. Wisely and then taking advantage of the margins or taking advantage of your tax.    [00:46:18] You're you're more strategic tax. Either ways to go about reducing your tax burden in reducing your fees on your at your best friend strategy and things like that. It's a bunch of different ways that you can you can kind of optimize at the margins, as I say, with with some of those more those higher rate, not higher those more advanced strategies.    [00:46:43] Yeah. Your your tax strategy planning is something that you really need to look at probably before you need it.    [00:46:53] I mean, you should start planning way early because if you get to tax season and you think to yourself, I could've used another three or four, ten thousand dollars and deductions all, it's too late at that point because every first or last years when you should have been planning that unless you're a corporation, then you may have may go a different calendar year.    [00:47:14] But for the most part, for you privately, the thirty first of December is the last time we get a chance to do it short of maybe investing in an I.R.A. and that's a..    [00:47:24] And even if you do it, it you know, even if you do it at the very end of the year, there's so much there's not as much as you can do.    [00:47:30] You want it like going to you with a really good tax strategists who will say, you know, throughout the year hear the different things, they should do it. Here's the investments you should do to reduce your tax burden. I guess taxes, I think there's a really daunting, early, intimidated people. And I know that I felt that same way when I started looking into it. But really, it's really amazing how you can use some of these strategies to reduce the taxes that you pay to you in the end.    [00:47:56] In the end of this, you know, especially some of these tax advantaged accounts that you can invest through. It's just it's really remarkable once you start diving into it.    [00:48:05] So as it is and I know investors that use their their portfolios to pay for every aspect of their life and a lot of it legally can be written off. You know, it's just the tax the tax advantages, real estate are just limitless.    [00:48:24] Yeah.    [00:48:24] And even if, you know, in real estate, you still want to be smart about your taxes and you still want to figure out, you know, what can you invest in that reduces your taxable income? What are different ways that you reduce your taxable income? So you're you're keeping most your money now.    [00:48:39] Now, if I want to learn more than then, just as a podcast, what do you think we should do? I notice you got a list of some books here.    [00:48:48] Do it. Yeah. And there is no shortage of them. And I I didn't even know.    [00:48:52] I almost didn't want to make the list because I mean, you're inevitably going to leave some of the big hitters and the key ones off. But I think it give us it makes sense to to the people at least some place to start if they want to dig in more. So, I mean, we've got a bunch on the list now. We've got Rich Dad poured out of it by Robert Kiyosaki, which I think is I mean, bar none. It is one of the biggest ones that always gets brought up. When you talk to people about, you know, what changed your mind would change your life, your financial trajectory.    [00:49:21] And a lot of people refer back to the rich dad for that book from Robert Kiyosaki.    [00:49:25] And that changed my life when I read it, because it makes you look at a different way, your finances. What exactly an asset is.    [00:49:34] He's defines assets a lot differently than we've been taught through school and through our parents. And it's definitely worth a read. And I've noticed like I bought twenty five thirty copies of Rich and Poor that they were they were on sale going on and I'll hand it out to people one. And the funny thing is I say it either resonates with you and you go and buy every one of his books and read read voraciously or you just don't get. You just don't like it or doesn't. Does that strike a chord with you? So, I mean, it's it's 50 50. You know, you can either be something that's going to change your life or you just go, what's the what's the all the hype about?    [00:50:13] And I think more often than not, people are all right. It's definitely on the former of those two because it's time and, you know, it's time tested. It's one of the most popular personal finance books ever written. When was it written? Early 90s. Maybe it's been off for lying is a long time and it's always been at the top of the list for personal finance. So it's definitely a time tested bestseller for sure. And then, you know, I'm going to skip around a little bit. Maybe a little maybe a little bit of a out there statement, but I think the rich and poor that of our generation is the book by Scott Trenchcoats set for your set for life.    [00:50:55] And this is one tenth of what you mentioned on buying 30 copies and given it out. I think this people need to buy these for any graduating senior from high school. Anybody graduate college? Any any young adult could benefit massively by the principles that are taught in this book. Set for life by a trash.    [00:51:17] Yeah, yeah, definitely. You know, your money or your life. Vicki, Robin and Joe, you you basically touched on that and started the fire more.    [00:51:26] My back in the 90s are back in the 80s, actually. So that was that was pre, you know, the kind of computer stuff we got going on now. Pre technology, man. No, everybody checks and everything back then.    [00:51:41] Yeah. Back in the ghetto there's the good old days.    [00:51:43] The good old days. You know we were riding around in horse and buggy easier, you know, the wagon trains.    [00:51:51] But you know and J.L. Collins with the simple path to wealth. And one of my personal favorites is The Honeybee by Jake Stand's Piano and Geno Barbaro. We yeah. Podcast episode with those guys on that. And it just touched on basically how to create the multiple streams of income, which is so powerful in the world today.    [00:52:13] Yeah. You know, I love this one because it breaks down these principles in such the easy way, easy to understand way. So it's that's the honeybee. Baiji extends the unknown. You know, Barbara, we didn't like you said, we didn't interview with a handful of episodes back. Memorable what episode number that was. Twenty, twenty, episode 20. About creating multiple streams of income. Yeah. Easy, easy. Read another one that should definitely be handed out set to anybody who is interested in learning more about this. Definitely be a life changer. So yeah.    [00:52:45] And then we've got some some blogs and some podcasts.    [00:52:49] Yeah. Yeah. We'll just run down the list is what is we're getting kind along here. But from a podcast perspective, you know, choose f I mean those guys do a phenomenal job of going over.    [00:53:00] I mean they're on a couple hundred episodes now, but you can go back all the way to the beginnings and listen to a lot of the basics around financial independence and kind of follow along with their journey. Mad faintest. This guy is, if you like, numbers. This is the dude to talk to. Here he writes some of these articles. It's a little bit harder to follow. I would say. But it is numbers, numbers, numbers. He is a guy who's reading these thirty thousand lines, the tax code, figuring out how to best take advantage of it. And it gives these case studies of how he's done a lot of the things he's talked about. So Mad Scientist is a good podcast and blog to talk about as well. Bigger pockets, money, I guess, is another good one. And then Dave Ramsey, MINIFY podcast. It's got a lot of really, really good basic financial literacy.    [00:53:47] Yeah. You know, I started reading the tax code, too. I think I'm on line five or seven, something like that. You get a little bit of it. Yeah. Well we take it in fits and spurts. So they go on the blogs. Mr. Money Mustache.    [00:54:05] I follow his blog, The Financial Samurai. Those. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great one. I love that one. And the physician on fire. That's. Yup. You know, they're all great blogs. They give you a ton of information. So you should check those out.    [00:54:20] And this is just a starting point. Like I said, it was I was debating on whether or not we'd make a list here because, you know, this so many people in the space right now.    [00:54:27] So many people in this area that inevitably leave some of the really, really good ones out. But, you know, you're linked to you jump from one to the other to the other to the other other end by timing. I mean, we are one that you've never heard of before. But Scott, you know, they all got good information out there now.    [00:54:45] Yeah. And the last thing we got there is our Wi-Fi. Mike, that's what motivates you and I.    [00:54:53] Yeah. I think this is important.    [00:54:55] Not necessarily that anybody cares about our Wi-Fi, but it's important to have Wi-Fi in it. It's kind of fun to say, but like, why do you want financial independence? Why do you want freedom? What do you do in it for a nine? If you if you have that, then these some of these concepts, these things that you had to sacrifice, because let's be honest, it be a lot easier. Just go rack up credit card debt and go, you know, go, you know, live the life you want. Go travel and go party and buy the fancy cars when you can't afford it versus waiting, you know, a handful years till you can. But see, if you're making similar sacrifices now, it's it's easier to do so if you have a Y.    [00:55:38] Yeah. Yeah. And like you said, there are options and freedom. That's one of the big ones.    [00:55:44] Seems to be a running theme options, man. It's literally all about options, like when his options ever been a bad thing.    [00:55:52] Never. Never.    [00:55:53] You know, it's, you know, no idea what's what's going to happen in five to seven or eight years or even two years. So like you options and you can kind of control more of it.    [00:56:04] I do know one instance where option too many options are a bad thing. Let's hear it. Starbucks. I mean, I love Starbucks, but come on. You know that. Let's go back to decaf and regular.    [00:56:17] No, man, I like my fancy coffee mcare. But coffee, though, you know, being from Minnesota. That's kind of my my my thing there. But you know, Amanda. Yeah. We posted a while back on Instagram.    [00:56:30] And we're like, what's your Wi-Fi? And, you know, I originally because it was what I was doing at the time, as you know, because books and a/c and the deck was, you know, shouldn't just be for Saturday ability to do that. You know, any day that week. Right. Is we want to spend more time with you. You know, the people in you know, the things that you love to do. So, yeah, you know, I never was.    [00:56:52] Well, I mean, that's that short of doing the call to action. You know, I got the cool down.    [00:56:58] You want to do kind of a quick recap and I do.    [00:57:03] Let's see if we can if we can recap this. We covered a lot. I think we're we're a little over an hour, you know, some outlets yourself.    [00:57:09] Arsalan, final good byes today. I literally cannot wrap it up with my options. Options are good.    [00:57:21] Let's call that action that way. Issue we get the Wi-Fi like figure out what's your Wi-Fi has made sure that.    [00:57:26] Yeah, it's well understood and well documented. Why you're traveling down this path. That is a little bit unconventional. It might might be a little bit more difficult in your in your daily life than your average life.    [00:57:41] And I think you should write it down and put it like on your bathroom mirror or some place you're gonna see it every single day. And remind yourself what you're working so hard.    [00:57:48] George, techie Asian apps to keep that front center. Now, so while that's everything I got, all I got in my moments, I wrap her up. Thank you, guys. We've seen another episode of the Real Estate Marathon podcast and we'll see you next time. Take care, guys.    [00:58:07] Thanks for listening to the Real Estate Marathon podcast. If you found value in any of the content from this show, consider supporting us in the following ways. Subscribe to the Real Estate Marathon podcast. Leave a rating and review. Continue the conversation with like minded individuals on social media by heading over to the real estate marathon podcast Facebook Group or follow us on Instagram and Twitter at Real Estate Marathon podcast. 

Since we’re all stuck at home, here's some cooking advice to help you through. Chef Mark Allison has three boys.. one of whom was diagnosed with type 1 as a baby. He has tips and tricks for us.. starting with: just get started. Mark teaches healthy cooking but isn’t above eating smores with his three sons. Check out Stacey's new book: The World's Worst Diabetes Mom! Mark currently works with the Cabarrus County Health Alliance teaching needed home cooking skills. He’s been the Director of Culinary Nutrition for the Dole Nutrition Institute and he spent many years teaching classical chefs at the Dean of Culinary Arts Education at Johnson & Wales University in Charlotte. Join the Diabetes Connections Facebook Group! Mark has a new book out Let's Be Smart About Diabetes: A cookbook to help control blood sugar while getting the family back around the kitchen table In Tell Me Something Good – a lot of mac and cheese and a lot of help for someone who has always been giving it. Talk about paying it forward… and back. Sign up for our newsletter here ----- Use this link to get one free download and one free month of Audible, available to Diabetes Connections listeners! ----- Get the App and listen to Diabetes Connections wherever you go! Click here for iPhone      Click here for Android Episode Transcript (Rough transcription, has not been edited) Stacey Simms  0:00 Diabetes Connections is brought to you by one drop created for people with diabetes by people who have diabetes by real good foods, real food you feel good about eating and by dexcom take control of your diabetes and live life to the fullest with dexcom.   Unknown Speaker  0:20 This is diabetes connections with Stacey Sims.   Stacey Simms  0:26 This week, how are you eating these days? Some kitchen and cooking advice to help us through Chef Mark Allison knows his way around the kitchen with a family he has three boys one of whom was diagnosed with type one as a baby. As a professional chef teacher. He says just get started   Chef Mark Allison  0:45 getting in that kitchen and making something over the next 30 or 40 minutes and then sitting down eating the food but actually having a conversation instead of everybody upstairs playing Xbox or some kind of games. You're actually in one room. Communicate it and you make them so think that hopefully everybody's going to enjoy.   Stacey Simms  1:03 You'll hear Mark's unique story. He and his wife moved to Alaska for an international program back in 1999. And their 14 month old son was diagnosed shortly after that in Tell me something good. A little bit of help for someone who's been giving a lot of it, talk about paying it forward and back, and a lot of mac and cheese. This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. Welcome to another week of diabetes connections we aim to educate and inspire by sharing stories of connection and in this time, it is so important to stay connected. On this week's show. We are not going to be talking specifically about the corona virus. Rather, this is a show that will maybe inspire you or help you to get in the kitchen at this time when we are all first in our house and I don't know about you, but I've been Looking more than ever, but maybe to look at things a little bit differently, get your kids involved, try something new. I was so excited to talk to Mark Ellis. And we've known each other for a long time. And I've been trying to get him on the show. And it's just one of those. You know, the beauty is in the timing sometimes, because maybe this episode will kind of give you a fun day and some fun ideas to try at a time when boy, we do need a little bit of fun, and a little bit of inspiration. So there will be more information about Mark's cookbook. Let's be smart about diabetes a little bit later on. And I would urge you if you're not already in the Facebook group to please join that it is diabetes connections, the group because I'm going to be putting some of the recipes and notes that he gave me into the Facebook group, I cannot put them in the show notes. It's just a format thing. So I apologize for that. They will not be on the episode homepage, but they will be in posts in the Facebook group. So head on over there to that. And just another quick note before we get started. Thank you to everybody who continues to buy my book, the world's First diabetes mom, if you need a laugh in these times, maybe it's there for you. I've heard from people who are really enjoying it right now who have the audio book to who maybe didn't have time to listen before, although I mostly listen to audiobooks in my car. So my audio book and podcasts consumption, frankly, is way down right now. Because I'm at home, I'm not commuting. I'm not driving anywhere. But I do listen when I clean and do laundry and stuff like that. So maybe that's it. But thanks again, the world's worst diabetes mom is available at Amazon. It is in paperback, Kindle and audiobook. You could also buy it over at diabetes, connections calm but frankly, Amazon's probably the easiest right now. And I was so happy to be involved in the children with diabetes virtual conference that happened recently. I bet you can still find that online. I was able to take my world's worst diabetes mom presentation for them. Of course, as you know, like many of you, I was planning to go to lots of diabetes conferences in the last month and this spring and it's all on hold right now. So a little bit of online goodness. For you, I will also link up the children with diabetes conference which had tons of presentations in it. I think it's going to be a real resource going forward for a lot of people so I'm thrilled that they did that. All right Mark Ellison coming up in just a moment but first diabetes Connections is brought to you by real good foods. We got a sample of the real good foods ice cream. They sent it to us a Benny and I did a Facebook Live. I think it's almost three weeks ago now. Wow. About what we thought our reactions and I gotta tell you, I have been enjoying the real good ice cream since then. It is so delicious. It is a lower sugar ice cream that tastes like ice cream. You have probably had ice creams that are lower carb that tastes kind of chunky and chalky. And there isn't none of that I sat down. I shouldn't say this. I ate almost the entire pint of the mint chocolate chip. I stopped myself but it was going there. So check them out. You can find out more at really good foods calm. They ship. Yes, they're the grocery store for you. Right now I know a lot of you and us included group looking at home delivery, and you can find all of their stuff online. They'll deliver it for you some great shipping deals as well. Just go to diabetes, connections comm and click on the real good foods logo.   My guest this week is a terrific chef, who as you know here teaches healthy cooking, but isn't above eating s'mores with his three sons. Mark Allison works with the cabarrus County Health Alliance, a local county to me here in North Carolina teaching needed home cooking skills. He has been the director of culinary nutrition for the dole nutrition Institute, and he spent many years teaching classical chefs as the Dean of culinary arts education at Johnson and Wales University here in Charlotte. Yes, Johnson Wales does have a campus here in Charlotte. One of Mark's sons was diagnosed with type one as a baby and his wife was diagnosed with stage four cancer in 2008. Now she did pass away But as you'll hear it His wife was able to live longer than anybody expected her to, which he says really made him a believer in the power of a plant based diet to fight disease and prolong life. Mark has a new book out called Let's be smart about diabetes, a cookbook to help control blood sugar while getting the family back around the kitchen table. We are putting recipes in the Facebook group, as I said, and of course links in the show notes. Here's my talk with Chef Mark. Allison. Mark, thank you so much for making some time for me. I know you've got all your boys home. And while we're not, I guess we're not doing much these days. It still seems like the time is filling up. But thanks for being here. I appreciate it.   Chef Mark Allison  6:40 They see You're very welcome. And it's a pleasure to be on your show. Thank you very much.   Stacey Simms  6:43 I'm excited to talk to you. We've known each other for a long time. I was thinking I think we met possibly the Johnson and Wales cooking competition of some kind where I was an extremely unqualified judge.   Chef Mark Allison  6:59 The good old days here In the good old days, Yes, I remember you there and you were totally qualified for the position to be church exceptionally well because I enjoy eating.   Stacey Simms  7:11 So there you go   Chef Mark Allison  7:12 to nature, you know, in my opinion chef is fitted very nicely into my lifestyle, because I love to eat. I love it.   Stacey Simms  7:19 Well, you know, I want to pick your brain as long as we have you to talk about how to try to eat well, as long as you know, we're all stuck at home. But let's talk about let's talk about diabetes. First, let's get your story out because I know everyone already hearing you knows that you are your native to North Carolina. That's a beautiful Southern accent that you   Chef Mark Allison  7:37 see I was born in Charleston, South Carolina. People get that mixed up all the time. I'm actually from a little town called at Newcastle upon Tyne which is in the northeast of England. And I grew up there and the place where the usually state calls from Newcastle on Newcastle brown ale on Newcastle soccer club whether the three things that people read knowing you're comfortable, but that's where I was born. I moved to South Wales and lived in South Wales for 10 years, traveled all over Europe and in 2004 landed in Charleston, South Carolina, lived there for yet then moved up to Charlotte and I've been in Charlotte now 15 years and absolutely love living in Charles. That's great.   Stacey Simms  8:20 All right, so but your your diabetes story your son's really starts in Alaska. Can you tell us that   Chef Mark Allison  8:26 I was one of 30 people fit by the Fulbright teachers Experience Program, which is a program that started after world war two to get the world together through education. And teachers apply and they are asked to go to different countries around the world. And I was asked to go to America and I thought Yes, this is going to be fabulous. being brought up in the 70s in the 80s. On Starsky and Hutch and streets of San Francisco. I naturally thought I was going to California, but I would have 500 teachers that apply to come to Europe, there was only one chef and he did not live in California. He actually lived in Anchorage, Alaska. And we actually turned down the position first because my wife said we are not taking a two year old and an eight month to Alaska. So we turned it down. And then Glen, the teacher rang me over to him and said, Look, can you do me a favor? This is the fourth year I have applied. And my daughter has won a four year scholarship at Oxford University and this is her last year. Can you please take the position so we can be with her for the last year that is in the UK. So we decided to move over that and we actually had an absolute fabulous year. But while we were living there, Matthew, my youngest son at the time, who was it month when we arrived, when you go to the age of 14 months, he became ill, and we took him to the doctors and the doctor said he just had a bad case of the flu, he'd be okay. And about a week later, he had lost a tremendous amount of weight. He was drinking a lot of fluids and just happened to be Tom My brother on the forum that weekend who is a type one diabetic and has been since the age of 15 years old. And he said, I think he may be a type one take him back to the doctor's. So we took Matthew back. And we had a young doctor, she was lovely lady. But she said, there's no way as a type one diabetic it normally it's going to be about seven or eight years old. He's only 14 months. And she just said, No, I'm not testing as blood. So of course, my wife who was there, like any mother has said, well, we're not leaving your office until you actually test his blood. So there was a bit of a standoff for about 30 minutes. And then she tested this blood and within 30 minutes, Matthew is in intensive care and he was there for the next seven years. And his blood sugar's were so far through the roof that we were told that we had left her office and went to him more than likely would have been in a coma that night. So we were exceptionally lucky. And the doctor from that stage could not do enough for us as he was at his bedside every day. And as you know, Life changes. So we decided to look at food as sort of medicine and changed all our eating habits for Matthew. So from the age of 14 month, Matthew has been on a really healthy diet, you know, just turned 22 in December, and he's in great shape, but he's at college at the minute, and he's doing exceptionally well. But that's where it all started back in 1999.   Stacey Simms  11:24 And I think it's worth repeating for people who are you who have children who are newer diagnosed or maybe have been newer diagnosed themselves. There really was this thinking because the same thing happened to us, Ben, he wasn't yet two years old. And they said, Yeah, under the age of two, it's Yeah, it'd be type one. There was this thinking and I don't know if it's just that they're getting better at it or there are more cases and infants and babies, but it has changed a lot thanks to people like you push an educated Oh my goodness.   Chef Mark Allison  11:51 You know, it is frightening. Because you've got your doctor and you just think they've got all the answers. And but something like Type One Diabetes is you know, in Now it's becoming more and more people become more and more aware. I remember when my brother was diagnosed that he was in hospital for six months because they were unsure of actually what it was. And the unfortunate thing for my brother, he was 15 at the time, so he was nearly an adult in England. And he was actually on a cancer Ward for six months, and was frightening with him was he was watching people that were dying around him. And unfortunately, that marked him for life. He is now nearly 60 and he's in good shape and he's healthy. But he still remembers them times where people were actually dying around them because they thought he didn't have diabetes for 30 years cancer at the time, but times have changed and I think it's a lot more easy to diagnose now. And we've got great doctors, people like that more fonder. Well, it's just amazing. I think now we can rely on the medical professionals to diagnose a lot quicker than what was said 20 years ago.   Stacey Simms  12:58 And when you're Your son and your brother must have had some interesting conversations about not only the difference of diagnosis, but the difference of treatments. I mean, I'm so your brother is doing well, because I can't imagine.   Chef Mark Allison  13:11 Well, my I can remember my mother have sterilized his syringe and needles every night. Because the other days, whether we're like the one inch long needles, and you could reuse them, and the syringe was reused, and he was getting injected twice a day, now he's on the pen. So you've worked a lot better for him, but I can remember those days and the previous thing, and testing was blurred and then cleaning the syringe and countless cops. It was a difficult time for my mother. I know that.   Stacey Simms  13:44 I feel you never want to say we're lucky with diabetes because it still stinks. Yeah, but also to make me grateful for insulin pumps and pens. My good.   Chef Mark Allison  13:54 Yeah, my back muscles just changed over to a new pump. The Omni pod and you know, he He's been on the pump for at least the last 12 years and what a difference others made. You know, we as parents, I'm sure you have the same feel a lot easier that he's on something that basically regulates everything. And as long as he tests his blood, he knows when he's either going to go low, go high. And these instruments these days are just amazing.   Stacey Simms  14:21 It really is. I feel really grateful. Yeah, let's jump in and let's talk about food. Because not only are you a renowned chef and a you know, an educator of other chefs, but now you work to educate the public which I just think is absolutely amazing because we need all the help we can get mark, as you well know. First of all, let me let you explain what it is that you do you work for the Harris County Health Alliance, which is a nearby you know, county to mine here in the Charlotte, North Carolina area. What do you do right now in terms of teaching the public   right back to mark answering Question, but first getting diabetes supplies is a pain. Not only the ordering and the picking up but also the arguing with insurance over what they say you need and what you really need. Make it easy with one drop. They offer personalized tester plants. Plus you get a Bluetooth glucose meter test strips lancets and your very own certified diabetes coach. Subscribe today to get test strips for less than $20 a month delivered right to your door. No prescriptions or co pays required. One less thing to worry about. not that surprising when you learn that the founder of one drop lubes with type one, they get it one drop, gorgeous gear supplies delivered to your door 24 seven access to your certified diabetes coach learn more go to diabetes connections comm and click on the one drop logo. Now back to mark and he is answering my question about teaching people the very basics.   Chef Mark Allison  15:55 I have a wonderful job and it's funny how I started the shop at 16 and I printed with French cuisine, and lots of thoughts, sugar and salt, and nobody counted calories or anything. And now I've went closer to being a healthy chef. And I tried to teach people how to improve their diets. So I work for the cabarrus Health Alliance, which is based in kannapolis. And my job is a fascinating job. And the fact that I go out to the general public, I go to schools and hospitals and churches, and I also do cooking classes at the cabarrus Health Alliance, and I try to teach people how to cook because if you think about it, Stacy, cooking is a life skill, but nobody knows how to cook these days. What I noticed just last week, when the food stores were out of canned goods and frozen goods, actually the produce section was still full. And my advice to anybody, especially at this time with the corona virus is eat healthy by eating as many fruits and vegetables as you possibly can because they're just packed full of vitamins, minerals and phytochemicals. So my job at the Cabal ourselves Lyons is basically trying to teach people how to cook and choose better food choices, and not so much processed food, not so much food that is packed with fat, sugar, salt, and try to get a healthy balance. You know, it doesn't all have to be healthy. But if you do choose healthy options, you'll feel better. Your health will improve and it'll fight off viruses.   Stacey Simms  17:23 So when we're all stuck at home and we have this mentality, which is this is very unique, obviously. Yeah, I mean unprecedented. But now that we're stuck at home, what would your advice be? Because I did the same thing I'll be honest with you when I went to the grocery store a couple of days ago, I picked up you know, some apples some oranges, but I wasn't I was thinking hunker down. Yeah, I bypassed a lot of the fresh fruits and vegetables now that it seems and again we're as we're recording this, it seems like the grocery stores are gonna be fine. There's no problem with supply. What What would you suggest we do next time we go to the store,   Chef Mark Allison  17:54 I would look at the air fresh produce and you know, start by Picking the fruits and vegetables that you like to eat. And then why not try something different? Something that you've seen before. But though you know what, I wonder what that tastes like, give it a try. You'll be amazed, I normally teach this in class where we'll have like a surprise ingredient. And part of the classes, everybody's going to try everything I make. And I might have a fresh fruit or vegetable and I chop it up and I pass it around. And it's amazing that nine times out of 10 everybody likes it. We've got these preconceived notions that we'll look at something think No, I don't think I like that for actually when you put it in your mouth and try it more than likely you're going to try something new and it's going to be interesting, then you're going to enjoy the test. So I would go around the fresh produce section and try something new, try something different. And I found the best way so especially with having three boys, if I wouldn't try something new with them. I normally just make a smoothie or soup because you can easily add something new and disguise it and they don't even know that they're in and then we told them that believe in something new. See, you know what, that wasn't too bad. Let's try it again. So I think it's all about experiment. And we've got the ideal time that you've just said, There. See, we're all cooped up at home. Why not get in the kitchen with the boys or girls, or family members and make something delicious to eat tonight? I've got to be honest, people tell me when they asked what I do for a living, I say, well, I've never worked a day in my life because I love what I do, which is I love food, and I love to cook. But our sound, it's the best way to make new friends. It's the best way to keep the family together, getting in that kitchen and making something over the next 30 or 40 minutes and then sitting down eating the food but actually having a conversation. Instead of everybody upstairs playing Xbox or some kind of games. You actually in one room communicate and you're making something that hopefully everybody's going to enjoy.   Stacey Simms  19:50 Alright, a lot of people listening are gonna say, Well, sure that sounds great. But I never learned to cook. I'm afraid to cook. My Stuff always comes out. Terrible. How can you start adults who really did not learn the skill?   Chef Mark Allison  20:05 You know what I was very lucky because when all my friends chose to do woodwork and metalwork, I was doing home economics. And as you can imagine, back in the 70s and 80s, that didn't go down too well with a lot of the guys, but you know what my thinking was, they see one instead of being locked up in a room with 19, sweaty guys, I was in an air conditioned room with 19 girls. And it worked out pretty good, because I found out very quickly two things. Everybody likes people who can cook and it's the best way to make friends. So I understand that a lot of people don't know how to cook. But actually, you can go online now and on YouTube, and you can learn practically any technique that you need. And I'll tell people all you really need to start with is a chopping board and a knife, and then find a recipe that you've always wanted to try. And you can easily download any recipe now from online or watch a YouTube video and cooking There's one of the simplest things you can ever learn. It's all about temperature control. It's either gonna be hot or cold. And if you can control the temperature you can make and eat anything you like. Wow.   Stacey Simms  21:11 Do you remember I'll put you on the spot here. Do you remember what you first taught your boys to make when they were little I pictured them standing on stools in the kitchen, you know, learning from dad,   Chef Mark Allison  21:21 and properly. And this isn't exactly healthy. And actually, we did this last night, we were sitting in the backyard having a fire pit and we all had smalls. So I'm guessing probably smalls are probably one of the very first recipes. I taught my boys. But I also taught them something very important. It's all about moderation. Whatever you make, have it in moderation. But my three boys all know how to cook, obviously, because they've been brought up by a chef. I tell people when I'm at work, I'll text my boys and be the dishwasher, prepare the vegetables, set the kitchen table, and then when I get home, all that's done, and then we get in the kitchen together and we cook dinner That night, but if I forget the text one day, believe it or not today, see, I get home and nothing has been done because boys are boys.   Stacey Simms  22:08 Oh, yeah, I've been there with both of my kids boys and girls. Yeah. Oh yeah, but you didn't send the text that's funny but I'm you know, it's good to know you're human. I think it's always more fun to know with the s'mores, right that you know, yeah. And food and it's fun to learn. And then you can use those skills. I don't know what quite what skills are making but you have to control the temperature.   Chef Mark Allison  22:33 Don't right. Yeah, that was our main skill. I think   Stacey Simms  22:36 that's an important one in the kitchen.   Chef Mark Allison  22:38 people. People ask me all the time, how do you make a healthy dessert mock and I'll say there's no such thing as a healthy dessert. So just enjoy whatever you're going to eat but have a smaller portion.   Stacey Simms  22:50 You're not free and substitutes and things like that.   Chef Mark Allison  22:53 I don't use any sugar free ingredients if I'm going to make something and add sugar and the sugar because normally Even if you make an a cake and asks for half a cup of sugar, when you consider that cake is going to divide a divided into eight or 10 portions, that half cup of sugar comes down to practically nothing. So I'd rather use the ingredients that are meant to be in a certain food items, then start trying to guess, well, if I put sugar free, I mean, it's going to work out the same because I'd rather just enjoy it the way it's meant to be, then try to mess around with it. That's the same with all these gluten free products and low in sugar products. You know, you're taking out one thing, but you're adding something else processed. And to me, you're far better off eating ingredients that you know, are ingredients that are more healthy than something that is a preservative or an additive or colorant.   Unknown Speaker  23:49 So tell us about your cookbook that you have out right   Chef Mark Allison  23:52 now. I brought out let's be smart about diabetes a few months ago and that actually started 2008 but that was the same year my wife was diagnosed with stage four cancer. So the book was shelved. And then when my wife passed away in 2015, I was approached by the American diabetic association to publish the book. And so they, they bought the rights to the book, but then they held on to it for two years. And then unfortunately, they laid off most of their editorial stuff, and said they were only going to publish well known authors, which I was not one of them. So they give me the full rights back. And so I just published that about six months ago. And it's all family recipes that we've used over the last 20 years with Matthew, all the recipes, believe makes a car very easy to use. You know, most of them take between 10 and 20 minutes, and the all healthiest there's nothing outrageous. I'm not asking anybody to buy superfoods. I don't believe in superfoods. I believe in it, eat an apple, that's probably the best food you can eat or a banana or if you had broccoli or cabbage. They don't have to be super foods. They're just packed Anyway with healthy vitamins and minerals and phytochemicals. So it's all based on practicality and what you can actually buy in your local store. And so this is packed full of soups and breakfast ideas, snacks, lunches, and meals for the kids and sort of healthy desserts.   Stacey Simms  25:17 I'd love to ask you and I, we didn't discuss this in advance, but would it be possible to grab a recipe or two from the book that you think might help people who are you know, stuck at home right now? Maybe dollar level or something that would keep and we could post that for the podcast audience?   Chef Mark Allison  25:32 Yeah, please do. Just choose whatever recipe you think is suitable. There's over 150 recipes in the book to choose from, and like I said, very easy to put together. And this could be the ideal time to grab a cookbook and try some of the recipes.   Stacey Simms  25:45 No doubt. All right. How do you stand on we've talked about you know, going to the produce section trying to buy fresh whenever possible. Where do you stand on canned and frozen ingredients?   Chef Mark Allison  25:55 Yeah, I'm a firm believer in fresh wood. If if you've got no option, then throw would be my next choice and then can't but if you're going to buy canned fruits or vegetables, make sure that they haven't got any added sugar.   Unknown Speaker  26:07 Yeah, you know what I saw in the supermarket recently forget added sugar. They were packed in Splenda, their sugar substitute in the quote for juice.   Chef Mark Allison  26:16 Yeah. Well, you know what people have got to make their own minds up on if they're going to use artificial sweeteners or not. I personally don't so you know, it's a choice you've got to make. But to tell the truth, if I've got the opportunity I always buy fresh because fresh normally isn't seasonal. So if you can buy seasonal fruits and vegetables, then they've got the best nutrient dense properties within them. They haven't been touched. Make sure that you wash your fruits and vegetables when you get them home and either eat them raw or add them to some kind of soup or lunch or dinner item. And to me that's the best way to keep yourself healthy. I'm a firm believer and my boys follow this practice as well. If you have half your plate, fruits and veggies But then you know, it's going to go too far wrong from being healthy and the idea with that's great advice.   Stacey Simms  27:05 Yeah, back to the the canned fruit though I gotta be honest with you and you don't have to you don't have to take a stand. But I was appalled to see canned fruit with Splenda added because the big packaging was like, you know, low in sugar, and I thought, Oh, good. Water or something. And I turned it over to look at the label. I was like Splenda, how much processing you have to go through to add that and I was like, uh, so I put that back. But in these, I know, people are worried right now, and many people may have purchased more canned and frozen goods than you ever really do. Looking at me. So we're all looking to try to do the best we can.   Chef Mark Allison  27:38 Yeah. And it's baby steps. It's baby steps. You know, you can kind of just turn your diet upside down because it's not gonna work. And I tell most people start with breakfast and just eat something healthier at breakfast and that's the ideal time to have a smoothie, you know, and you can Pocket full of vegetables, you know, cut back on the fruit so much, but ask or kale to smoothie out blueberries, but look at your your breakfast first and just change your breakfast for about a month, and then work on your lunch. And then finally work on your dinner. So, you know, if you just start slow, then your body becomes adjusted to it and you'll feel a lot more healthier.   Stacey Simms  28:17 What's your favorite movie?   Chef Mark Allison  28:18 Actually, when I used to be the director of culinary nutrition for the dog food company, I came up with a smoothie that obviously included bananas. It had almond milk, bananas and coffee. And that was a coffee fix up and the number of people that complimented that smoothie was unbelievable. But my favorite smoothies as always got blueberries and because blueberries are one of the best fruits you can eat for your memory as you get older and talk about with blueberries and spinach I use gave a banana and I use almond milk and a handful of almonds. And that saves me all the way through to lunch.   Stacey Simms  28:55 I liked spinach, mango and Domino.   Chef Mark Allison  28:58 That's Like mangoes my favorite fruit. Ah,   Stacey Simms  29:02 I'll tell you what, I use the frozen mango because it keeps it cold and gives it that exactly feel. But I was a big I was very reluctant to put anything green in a smoothie. I thought it was disgusting. I really did. I really did. And finally my husband convinced me and it's delicious. I'm shocked shocked. Yeah,   Chef Mark Allison  29:25 you can get your best and fishy and all that as spinach has got more protein than the average piece of meat weird for weird. So if you put four ounces of spinach in your smoothie, then that's got actually more protein than four ounces of beef. So probably I hit it right yeah. Spinach and spinach is one of the best foods in the world you can eat that as well as kale.   Stacey Simms  29:47 Yeah I'm still I'm not around to kale but maybe I'll try it all if I could. Finish I can try to   Chef Mark Allison  29:55 kill you can get away with in smoothie and solid j the like it are you doing   Stacey Simms  30:00 Exactly. All right, well, that's a great idea. Um, and then I know you said start with breakfast, move on to, and then ultimately do your dinners. But I have to ask for people who are listening who have younger kids, easy suggestions for dinners that the kids can help with? Is there anything that comes to mind that you did with your boys,   Chef Mark Allison  30:17 you know, you can always make your own chicken nuggets, that easy to make. In fact, there's a recipe in the book for that. But start with things that they actually like. And then just all the some of the ingredients to more healthy ingredients. Because most of the things you can buy in fast food outlets, or and most restaurants, you can replicate at home and make them a lot more healthier. It's just like anything. If you want to learn something, you'll take the time to learn. And to me, the good thing about coupon is it's a social event that actually gets people together. And it's a great way when my wife passed away five years ago, that was one of the things I insisted with my boys that every night we went in the kitchen now five years on We do exactly the same thing they were, they can't wait to get in the kitchen, see what we're going to eat that night. And usually they choose one of the evening meals during the week. And then we'll all muck in together all your sleeves up, we'll all cook together. And then again, I said, we actually sit down at the kitchen table and spend the next 30 to 90 minutes just having a conversation, which is fabulous. It's the highlight of my day.   Stacey Simms  31:22 I'll tell you what, it really is an amazing thing when you can get everybody away from their electronics sitting at the table. You know, we set we did that too. We set the table every night. Yeah. Even if we're bringing in, we do bring in occasionally, you know, it goes on the table, it comes out of the takeout.   Chef Mark Allison  31:39 What is social experience food is this food is one of the one things that will bring people together. And even if it doesn't turn out great. You can all have a laugh about it. And just try it again the next day. You know, nobody's gonna have a fight over a burnt pancake. You know, they you're just gonna laugh about it and say, You know what, I'm gonna cry better tomorrow.   Stacey Simms  31:58 You know, I'm glad to hear you say that because I I've been there many times. Before I let you go, you know, your life has been so interesting to be touched by type one diabetes in your family. And then of course, you've had that unbelievable experience with cancer and losing your wife and I'm so sorry, Mark, but now working with people who are honestly dependent on you to teach them better ways to manage health, whether it is diabetes, or trying to avoid complications from other illnesses. And I'm curious, you know, when you do meet with these people having, as you said, you started with, you know, French cuisine, fancy restaurants fancy chefs, now you're meeting with people who may not even understand how to fry an egg. You What was   Chef Mark Allison  32:39 that been like? Interesting.   Before, before I took this job, I was a culinary instructor for 20 years, so I could have dealt with a lot of people and different learning needs. And it all always comes back to the basics. If you can pick up the basics of anything that You'll be successful. So when you consider, I'm now working for the health department and I didn't realize these stocks until I actually started working for the health department. But 85% of all chronic diseases such as heart disease, type two diabetes, obviously not type one, and cancer are food related. And we live in an epidemic at the minute with the rise of type two diabetes, and the continuing rise of heart disease and cancer. And if people just realize that food is so important to prevent heart disease and cancer and type two diabetes, but also it's so important once you've got one of these diseases, to actually improve your immune system by eating healthy food, and the healthiest foods on the planet are fruits and vegetables, nuts, seeds, beans, seeds, and lean proteins and lean dairies. You've got to look at your food supply, try not to eat so much processed food because that's where all the additives are. That's where they put in the colorings the preservatives. You can't buy a loaf of bread that was moldy in a day. And now, you know that loaf of bread will stand there without gathering more for a week to two weeks. Now that isn't good. You know, actually, I just had fresh bread last night. I couldn't get any bread at the store yesterday. So I decided to get the flour out and I had some dry yeast. And making bread is so easy, it took less than five minutes. But just look at the food that you generally eat. And just try to you know, when you consider the rising costs of health insurance, every year, it goes up and up. And you will know because I know with Matthew's insulin and equipment for his pump, it just gets more and more expensive for free and, but if you're healthy, then look at that as being a lifesaver for you, as far as money is concerned, because if you can stay healthy and off prescription medication, you're gonna literally save thousands of dollars every year, and your life is gonna live longer, and you're going to enjoy life more. So A lot of it's all about prevention. But if you do have an illness, then really look at your diet, because the food, it's food is not medicine, but it can help in a way that will make you feel good about yourself and make you lose weight. And it'll keep you alive a lot longer if you pick the right food choices. And the right food choices are eat more fruits and vegetable.   Stacey Simms  35:22 Well, I really appreciate you spending some time with us. It's just always wonderful to talk with you. I'm glad your boys are doing well. Everybody's home now.   Chef Mark Allison  35:29 Everybody, so yeah, everybody. So James got led over school for the next two weeks, possibly more, who knows? Matthews at college, but he's at home at the minute and he's just doing everything online. And then unfortunately, my son who works in a restaurant, he just got laid off yesterday. But you know what, things could be a lot worse. We've just got to knuckle down and stay healthy and hopefully this virus hopefully will be gone in two or three weeks in the golf fleet. The nation can get back to normal. Yes, I hope so, too.   Stacey Simms  35:59 Mark, thank you so much for joining me, we will link up all the information about the book, we'll see how I can go about posting a recipe or two. And I'm just wishing you and your boys All the best. Thank you so much for talking with me.   Chef Mark Allison  36:10 Thank you for having me on the show and you and your family stay safe and stay healthy. And hopefully we'll catch you up with another diabetic conference.   Stacey Simms  36:19 Yeah, hopefully down the road and everything is rescheduled. I think the best thing is gonna be it's gonna be a very busy fall, I think.   Chef Mark Allison  36:25 I think   Unknown Speaker  36:32 you're listening to diabetes connections with Stacey Sims.   Stacey Simms  36:38 Lots more information at the episode homepage. And of course, as I mentioned, we'll put some of the recipes and other information Mark was very generous and giving me an excerpt from the book. I will put that in the Facebook group, diabetes connections, the group, I don't care what he says I am not trying to kill smoothie. I've been there done that. But for somebody like me, having a green smoothie is a big step. I do eat a lot of vegetables. But I never thought I'd like smoothie. But like I said, the spinach smoothie was great. So he just like he said, one new thing, one new thing. Try it, see if you like it. You know, I've tried to teach my kids, although my husband is a really good cook, and he's done a much better job of teaching the kids actual cooking skills, but I try to teach them that mistakes are okay, which is coming out of my mouth. I just realized that just sounds like everything else I say with diabetes. But I mean, it's my philosophy of cooking too, because I make a ton of mistakes and everything somehow tastes good. I mean, sure, I've burned things. The first book I wrote was, I can't cook but I know someone who can. Actually Mark has a recipe. That book is a wonderful recipe. The conceit of that book is that I can't cook so I went and asked all of my restaurant and Chef friends for recipes. And it was a big book for charity for jdrf. And it was a lot of fun, but I did write a whole bunch of kitchen disaster stories into that book. Yeah, I think my life philosophy is make all the mistakes. Hey, it's working out so far. Up next, tell me something good. But first diabetes Connections is brought to you by dexcom. We have been Using the dexcom g six since it came out almost two years ago is that possible? It is just amazing. The dexcom g six is FDA permitted for no finger sticks for calibration and diabetes treatment decisions. You do that to our warm up and then the number just pops up if you like us have used x come for a long time before that. It's really wild to see the number just kind of self populate. You just have to do a lot more finger sticks for calibration. We've been using the dexcom for a long time. It was six years this past December and it just keeps getting better. The G six has longer sensor were 10 days and the new sensor applicator is so much easier to use. And of course the alerts and alarms we can set them how we want if your glucose alerts and readings from the G six do not match symptoms or expectations. Use a blood glucose meter to make diabetes treatment decisions. To learn more, go to diabetes connections comm and click on that dexcom logo   and tell me something good this week. If you saw this post on social media you might have thought Stacy, you're telling me something good backgrounds are usually blue. Why was this one orange? Well, that's because my friends It featured mac and cheese. So let me tell you about Ty Gibbs. Ty is a swimmer at Henderson State University in Arkansas. He was diagnosed in 2017. It was actually very serious. He was being rushed to the hospital at the time. He was in intensive care. He spent time in the ICU, but his mom Cheryl says as he was rushed into the ICU, he was just starving. And he kept asking for mac and cheese over and over again every year since we celebrate with a ton of mac and cheese. So this tells me something good on social media the photo if you saw it was his teammates and friends celebrating his diversity with seven pounds of mac and cheese and a cake. You want to talk about a carb explosion? No, of course the celebration took place weeks ago. I believe this has And very early in March or maybe it was even in late February when they actually celebrated it before the social distancing was taking effect. But I really appreciate Cheryl sharing this story. I love the idea of celebrating with a mac and cheese. That would be something for my daughter more so than my son. When the kids are left to lane. They were asked to empty their dorm rooms of food. They weren't ordered to it was a food drive for people in New Orleans. And a lot of these kids like my daughter, most kids into lane are from far away. So a lot of them were jumping on planes or getting out of there and going long distances and didn't want to pack up everything in their dorm room. So the school organized a big food drive. And I tell you all this because my daughter donated her mac and cheese. I know she had other junk in her room that she didn't share with me but oh my gosh, she's definitely the mac and cheese lover in the family. So thanks, Ty and congratulations on your dire versary hopefully next year we can celebrate again we'll send you some mac and cheese to our other Tell me something good comes from Laura Bilodeau. A familiar name to many of you. She is the powerhouse, behind the friends for life conferences and so much more with children with diabetes. But recently, Laura found herself in the unusual situation of asking for help. She has connected thousands of people over the years. It's no exaggeration, the friends for life conference is 20 years old. And the children with diabetes organization is older than that. And I'm telling you, they have connected so many people to each other, for help for education for inspiration for friendships, including me, I've made so many friends there. But her son actually needed to help her adult son doesn't live with them, but with everything that was going on, came back home to Michigan a couple of weeks ago, and they were having trouble with diabetes supplies. They had been I'm not going to go through all the details. But like many of us, you know, they had insurance issues, somebody wasn't following through. The supply wasn't coming when it was supposed to come. And so they turn to the diabetes community for help. And as we always do, People reached out and so she posted a great picture about two weeks ago now almost that Mike Hoskins who's also been on the show is a great writer over a diabetes mine and his wife Susie. They met for coffee although they met you can see the picture. They're six feet apart each Zingerman's coffee roastery which was still open for takeout and this picture looks great. I bet that's a terrific coffee place. I'd love to check it out if I'm ever in town there but of course the big deal was that Michael was able to help her with the supplies that she needed. Is your community doing that we're having a lot of that here in the Charlotte area where people are just reaching out I already no surprise gave insulin to a friend of mine who's got an adult son who does not have insurance and is really struggling right now. So we were able to donate to them. I've got friends who had you know my Omni pod PDM knocked out and you know, they're going to get us a new one but does anybody have one in the meantime? Anybody spare sensor, little things like that goes such a long way. You know, I mean, they say little things. They They're really not when you come to rely on this stuff day to day could we go without except for the insulin? Of course, we would do finger pokes, we would use shots. But you know, you don't want to be without this technology once you have it. So way to go. Mike Hoskins way to go Laura Bilodeau, because it's tough to ask for help, especially when you've always been in the position of providing it. I'm so glad everybody got what they needed. All right, tell me something good. It's the best segment of the show each week. Tell me what you got. You can send it in Stacy at diabetes connections calm posted in the Facebook group. Or if I see it like I did, Laura, I'll just get your permission to share your story. But I really love when you send them in. So keep them coming and tell me something good.   Not too much to say here before I let you go. I do apologize for sort of the weirdness of the schedule. I always pride myself on every week the consistency of getting the show out there on Tuesdays and then those mini episodes I was doing on Thursdays foot, gosh, I feel I bet you feel the same. It's almost like time has been Meaning right now. Right? what day of the week? Is it? am I eating breakfast? Am I having cocktails? You know, it's just a crazy time right now. So I am giving myself the grace to put out episodes when they make sense. I am listening to podcasts right now when I am listening, that are entertaining and distract me. I'm listening to a lot of my Game of Thrones podcasts, a lot of my history podcasts, a lot of podcasts that make me laugh. So I'm not that concerned about getting my news up to date from podcasts. I hope an episode like this, you know, gave you 40 minutes or 50 minutes. I honestly don't know where that's going to come out to yet of distraction entertainment, something good to think about and a feeling that you're not alone. As we go forward in these weeks, I'm not sure just like everything else. I'm not sure what the podcast production schedule is gonna look like. Of course, I have my sponsors and I will do what is responsible and we'll get those episodes out. But I really liked connecting on zoom calls, Facebook Live, other things like that. So as with everything else after this is over We'll see what the podcast landscape looks like, right? I mean, who knows? I hope to keep doing this, but we shall see. We'll see where you all are. It's gonna be a long, long time before things go back to quote normal. And I don't know what that's going to look like. I do hope and expect that we will be in it together as we have been as the diabetes community always is. So please let me hear from you. Tell me what's on your mind. And I really appreciate you tuning in. As always, thank you to my editor john Pugh kennis of audio editing solutions. JOHN, I hope you're staying safe in Philadelphia and doing well and that your kids are alright as well. And thank you, as always for listening. Stay safe. I'll see you soon and more now than ever before. Be kind to yourself.   Unknown Speaker  45:50 Diabetes Connections is a production of Stacey Sims media. All rights reserved. All rounds avenged.   Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Well for those of you that are joining us, we are here in the warrior divas real talk for real women Facebook group and we are doing our show we're adapting to our ever changing society. We are being emotionally connected in a social distancing world so Today, I am excited about the show we have for you We but before we get started, I wanted to let you know that if you're watching this in the group, you can invite other people to join us in the group to watch it. comment in the comment section, give a little like a little love. Leave one of the emoticons if we make it happy, sad or mad, any of that in the in the group. And I want to welcome our guests today and just a few moments, they're gonna let us know a little bit about themselves. And then as we go through the show, you'll get to learn a little bit more about them. As I said, I'm Angie Monroe, I am the host of the show. This show airs every Tuesday from 11am to 1pm Central Standard Time on fishbowl radio network and then you can find it starting at 3pm on all the podcast social networking sites. So if you hear something you like today or or you really want somebody else listen to that's the great way to share it. Plus, it'll be here in the group as well. So We're going to start off we've got Stacey up in the top we've got Janet Stacey wave. Janet under Stacey. We've got misty right next to Stacey to Janet and then we got cam. I don't know how it's showing up on everybody. thing. I guess mine's a little bit different. So getting yelled away. So I want y'all to we're gonna start with Stacey and kind of go in that order. So Stacy if you will, kind of give us a who you are, what your occupation is, where you're located and what you're passionate about. My name is Stacey Penny when I am the owner of Alexander medical Spa in Hurst, Texas. I'm also very involved in the Chamber of Commerce. I'm on the board of directors. I'm also on the board of directors for central arts of Bedford and Hearst. I like being involved in the community. That's one of my passions. I love helping other people. I like to be involved in charities. I also am passionate about learning. And I like to learn from other people. I like to learn from books. And I like to learn from doing. And this is my first podcast so I'm learning right now. Awesome. All right, we have Janet Janet, tell us a little bit Hey, Shay break out and dance or when I was live that and you did that sway app yesterday, didn't you? Yes, I had 500 views as people actually think I can dance that good which is really awesome. Yeah, I can't really dance that good y'all. Okay, my name is Janet Manor and I live in the middle of nowhere Kansas. I used to live in Texas and I miss you guys miss all the Texas hair and all the beauty of Texas women. And not that I don't love my Kansas ladies, but I do miss Texas and and I am retired but I still passionate about helping People, I I take a lot of phone calls and do a lot of praying for people still people call me for that a lot. And I teach a Bible study class of about 25 women every Monday night. So that's I'm really passionate about studying the Bible. I have the time, most of the time now to do it. And so a very busy life up until this point. So it's been, it's a blessing to be able to sit and sit in word and he's, we just did James Bible study. And so he's prepared us for a time as this to consider it all joy to be in this trial. That's where we are. And as women and all the people that we love and care for are going to follow our lead. You're just really that's the truth and our families. So trying to keep it all joyful here, and it's not being unrealistic, but now's the time to shine. Ladies, now's the time to shine. So absolutely, absolutely. Misty, how about you? Hi, I missed you. I'm the owner of picture perfect brows and beauty and co founder of expanded woman. And you know, I, I'm located but for Texas By the way, and I'm super passionate about people, connecting others and also just empowering other women building confidence. Those are the things and I'm very woman centric as well. So I definitely think we aligned in that way, Angie. Absolutely. So Kim, Kim get started. Marcel reviver talk about her so much, but many of y'all have not ever really officially met her. So this is Kim. Hi, Kim. I'm Kim. And I'm in Grapevine, Texas. And um, I, for a long time have been a small business owner had a graphic design business out of my house. Really Long time since 2015, I've been doing ministry and biblical counseling with women and I graduated last November with my certification to be a biblical counselor. And so, out of that, hopefully a ministry is being birthed. But, you know, God had different plans for how 2020 is gonna go so I'm just my word for the year was restart. Um, I know that I'm still very passionate about women seeing women healed, broken hearts restored, just walking in freedom and and the path that God has for them. So that's my true passion and how that shows up and what that looks like kind of ebbs and flows. As I think I'm growing and maturing in the Lord, so we'll see what he has for next. Yeah, it's interesting because without planning it tonight, we ended up with two of the ladies on the show that have helped me with my external beauty. We got misty and Stacy that have helped me with the external beauty. And then Janet and Kim have helped me with my spiritual beauty over the last several years of my life, and I tell the story about mending the soul all the time and how much I hated that class but loved that class. And Janet's the one that kind of I brought it up to her one day and she goes you're in my class period, you know it's done now I was like, Okay, what did I get myself into? So and then all that you've seen growing with divas impact the magazine The the beautiful flyers and all the thing, the logo for warrior divas all of that has been done by Kim. So pm is the previous creative genius behind all of that. So Mary, and I just get to come up with great, crazy ideas and go, Hey, friends, let's have some fun. But so, you know, Kim has been on isolation a little bit longer than the rest of us. And I'll let her share a little bit about that as we go on. But we were just talking about what is the purpose of the show? What are we wanting to do with the show? And yes, I'm not touching my face. I'm touching my hair. So don't anybody freak out about Corona on me because I'm putting my hair in my house. But, you know, our biggest thing is we want to be somebody that shines a light. So we realized that when you are socially isolated, you don't need to be emotionally isolated. And so we're going to start doing more and more things like this inside the group. Just to have a fun way Friday night, we're going to have a pajama party inside the group everybody show up, we're going to open up the zoom live thing. Let everybody jump on, we'll have a little dance party on there, we'll do a whole bunch of fun stuff inside the group. With that, just because moms and women married single with kids without kids, we all just need to blow off steam at some point, right? Ah. So part of what we're wanting to be is shine that light, we're going to do that and a lot of spiritual ways. We're going to do that in a lot of emotional ways. We're going to do that in a lot of fun ways. So Friday night will be instead of a divas night out it will be a divas night in so you will start seeing us talking about that later on this week. And we'll do one of those each week until we're set free and then we'll start having divas nights out because we'll be building relationships behind the scenes. So somebody somebody had a post up the other day, one of the single people I know was talking said, Wait a minute, you mean I actually got to talk to somebody and get to know them first before I go on a real date. So we're going to take the opportunity to get to know you and we want to talk with, you know, the girls here, I want you to realize that it's not just me in this group. There's other amazing women in this group that can leave things up and talk with you and encourage you and inspire you. And that's what we're all here to do. So this morning, I shared in the group, the john Maxwell video about leadership, and I was live streaming watch parties in this group and another group and trying to leave the notes in there and I do have the notes I'll put them in the notes in a file here inside the group from that section once I get them cleaned up to where other people can kind of interpret my notes as I typed them up, but they're still a little wonky and You know, it was great because he was speaking to leaders. Now tomorrow, he's going to be talking and tomorrow and to say he's going to be talking, turning adversity into advantage. And we're going to kind of kick that off tonight talking about what we as women are thinking and doing and feeling, and, and all of that. So what I want you to know is, we're women here, we may be sitting in a somewhat good situation. I don't know everybody's situation here. But I do know all these women, I don't know all their stories. But I do know all these women. And I do know that they are women that lead with love, they leave with graciousness, they don't lead with fear, they lead with joy. And that's why I was so excited that they joined us on the show today. So as we get going, we're going to start off with emotional health. So first off, we're going to do a temperature check of everybody on the call. So how are you Feeling what's going on? For some of us, it's day one for some of us. What, 90 Kim? Boy? So, um, you know, let's start. Let's start with Kim. Since she's been the longest Kim, how are you feeling? I you know, I'm actually feeling really good. I think that, you know, my journey started on January 2 with my quadruple bypass. So, I think I went through some emotional shock that kind of first month, like, I came home from the hospital on the fifth. And physically, I did great. But emotionally there were some really tough days. The it's not fair. This shouldn't have happened to me, like, you know, this was just completely out of nowhere and I didn't fit the profile and you Still, so, for me, it was sort of having to deal with a lot of the I'm having to come to acceptance with what is my new normal, I had to come to the fact that, you know, I don't know what my future is gonna look like and I gotta be okay with that now, you know, I don't know how this is, is gonna go it's a progressive disease. So new normal looks totally different. And then just even changing everyday habits I have to work out I have to eat completely different. And so there was a lot of that morning I can't eat a cheeseburger and my pepperoni pizza with extra cheese anymore. Took me a month and you know, but then I started discovering new foods, and I learned that I kind of did like working out and You know, you start to accept some stuff and roll your eyes when you said that can you rolled your eyes? here's the here's the funny truth is, it is like ripping teeth out to get me to start working out like getting on the treadmill. But I can tell about eight minutes in. Like, I don't know if it's the dopa mean or what happens chemically but then I start liking it and my 20 minute workout I'm noticing is going 3035 40 minutes like I'm, I actually feel good I feel better. I it's, it really is starting to shift and that was something I didn't expect at all. And then I even started lifting weights this week. And that was completely something I never thought I would be here year was restart and so in every way I've had to restart So it is kind of neat that here God sort of prepared me because I haven't been leaving the house that much I was social isolating already cuz you know you're immunocompromised and healing and and really restricted on what you can do for a while so, you know, I think the Lord was like No Let's prepare her for the corona virus apocalypse just a few months so you know that's where where I'm at I think my husband thinks I'm insane cuz I have bought enough food for the apocalypse and then even like ordering online the dog snacks and dog food so he called it the dog Apocalypse Now as they are delivering that but we're good over here in grapevine. Good Yeah, yeah. So So misty. What about you what's going on in your world I know there's you. You've been doing a lot inside our community as well to take care of the emotional health of some of our community. Yes, there's there's an organization that our chamber has called leadership hgb. And you're a part of the class this year and y'all had a big event planned. The next one, I had to get scrapped because of everything that's going on. But your group in your class just pivoted so beautifully to really attend to what's going on in our community. So I want you to talk a little bit about how it affects you, but what you've been doing to help those around us. Sure, sure. So um, yesterday, you know, worse I'm a salon and permanent makeup company. So yesterday we find out that we had to close the shut down, so Okay, no more livelihood. Don't have the option of unemployment. So, you know, there's a little bit of that fear factor, but I've really been through this whole thing kind of tapped into books and motivational podcasts and things to just kind of get my mindset, right, because you know how that goes. But I refuse to let the devil get me and let him fill me the women are so I honestly feel way more calm than I thought I would, knowing, knowing what's going on. And it helps me to help other people during this time too. So our group has put together another group that basically, we currently call it Corona virus. Press help us here AGV. So for this whole ATV area, and let me tell you a little bit about the project that we started off with. There was a mirror a wall that was painted on next to a company where some Hispanic people owned it and somebody graffiti I hate Mexicans on the wall. So our proud our program was to create a mural, which we did. And it looks amazing. The mural is the map of the HTV area. And we painted over the I hate Mexican. And it just turned out to be so beautiful. Unfortunately, we don't get to show it off yet, but we will eventually. But it is a great reminder of all the community resources that are available in the area. So our secondary thing was to have community resource fair at the same time for the mural unveiling. So instead of doing that, and on this coronavirus, hgb we took it virtual since we cannot really be together. Um, and basically we set out you know, different resources for people what's available, we set up you know, grocery updates and activity websites and all the different things that our community could come together and we made it a needs profile, so we can help those and there's another side project to where we set up little news people Paper stands and put products in there like toilet paper and toothpaste and and just some resources for people to just grab if they need it and also where people can donate goods as well. So it's been really good to help kind of take my mind off that of what's going on around me and helping others. Well, let me see what what's the HTV stand for? GPS you list Bedford? Okay. I thought much better the three cities. Yeah. So it's kind of like our little suburb area. Yeah. Yep. I just want to make sure I knew that was Sam. Yeah. And one of the one of the beautiful parts of it is if you're talking and somebody asked a question about the corona virus or different things like that, they don't want a lot of speculation in the group. One of the rules is the group is to cite your cite your source. So we just we want to make sure that we're citing our sources at all times. So that right there is huge for turning that to for what they're doing, because, you know, everybody can go out there and speculate and do random what is a conspiracy theorist? A lot of that there there is a lot of that so and I think john even said it today he goes first off if the media is your source you need to get a different source World Health Organization to you know, CDC go to places and get get it straight, quote unquote, from the horse's mouth so yeah, so Janet, what about your world? How is things going in your world? I know you've got a little space between the all the normal most of the time Yeah, well, there's still lines that are Sam's and there's still lines in our stores and people are still hoarding the toilet paper. And so I our little group, we we set up in the basement and we social distance to each other enough, but we're making masks You know, the ladies can so I can't so but we're cutting. We're doing okay. I mean, I'm so grateful for the you know, we have our phones and we can still talk and have this group and zoom and Facebook each other and FaceTime each other. I mean, what, what would we you know, I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful for that because emotionally and you know, if it all goes down, we're all gonna, it's gonna be a little more difficult, but this way we can stay connected and so I'm grateful that we have that, you know, that's really good. As far as I can see, we're a bunch of can i say i'm not going to use curse words but really a bunch of really tough American women. And that's starting to come out we have this Christian toughness I don't even know the warrior divas perfect because I just see a bunch of Lady she's got it together. You know, they, you know, people are sick people are isolated, you know, but they're still just kind of keeping it together and I'm just really proud of the people that I know in my life. I know there's other people who are struggling financially lost jobs, and they're still, you know, just carrying on helping their neighbor. It's just incredible, really incredible to watch. So I'm blessed in that regard because all I see is good stuff. That's all I see. I don't see any nonsense yet. So I'm grateful I got tickled watching the Facebook means or something the other day one of the guys goes I don't even know why we still have farmers and all that stuff. Why don't they just go to the store and buy this stuff that they want from the store? And then somebody else's if we have to, if we have to hunt for our food, I don't even know where Doritos lives. And you know, I love the tongue and cheek of it, but it's because of that tongue in cheek. I've had people reach out to me and going Hey, could you tell me how do I make mac and cheese with ah crap. You know, they need to know how to make their Is what mac and cheese they know they've got the ingredients for it they just don't know how to put it all together so you know trying to be some of those women that has some of these answers together not just mean not just you yeah but you know how to be creative and like my guests on my leading moment show on Thursday said he goes Guess what? He goes the store still have plenty of fresh fruit and vegetables on the shelves, because everybody's buying all the junk food all the company. Now don't eat junk food. You can. Yeah, and then another thing he brought up that misty I was going to tell you might be I'll send you a picture for it. That might be a good thing to post in your group was if it's got the wick symbol on it, that the women and children that are eating off of that wick that's only the only cheese and milk and eggs and things that they can buy cereal that they can buy. So if you have a choice, choose something other than that, but don't wipe Yeah, the witnesses are limited. That sounds like that is just huge. So I've been repeating that and shouting that as often as I can. So I just I took a picture of one of the wick signs the other day and said we need to post about this and I have it That's good. So I'll send you the picture lets you post about it and then I'll share it in post about it too. So all right, Stacy. So you're kind of in the same boat that misty is in yesterday, six o'clock and a face to face interaction. And then you know, what, what are you going to be doing? How are you emotionally handling this pivot? Well, I had already made the decision on Thursday or Friday that I was going to close before before we were closed. Because I have employees that have children. I'm all of them. But most of my people because I'm an anti aging are older. They shouldn't be coming to see me. Some of them are secret still mentioned He's messaging me, Hey, I'm working from home, can you can you get that treatment done to my eyes and we won't tell anybody, you know, just show up at the office. I still have that going on, because people want still want to get their stuff done. But I mean, I'm a mom and I have four children, I really don't need to get sick, what are they gonna do without me. And in the grand scheme of things, I have a roof over my head, I have food, even if my my business falls apart, which it won't. And I need to be here for my kids and my family. They're the most important thing. So I had already chosen, but I have gone through many different emotions throughout the last couple of weeks. I was kind of in the know about certain things beforehand because my brother works for a city and he's in a director position. So he was telling me about closed downs before they were starting to be announced. And so I was wearing before everybody else and I feel good right now I feel the things that I feel are like, I'm excited that I'm going to get to see my kids. I'm a working mom. I'm a mom that has owned a business for almost 20 years. So I have been busy. This whole time. My kids don't see me as much as some other moms get to get to see their kids. My kids are very what they were asking yesterday, where are you home so early? You know, why did you What's going on? Why is mom here? And so I'm anxious to see what it's going to be like when I'm here the entire week with him because, you know, they, they don't they only have that when I'm on vacation. I'm anxious to see I'm anxious to cook food. You know, I because I own a spa. I come home later. So sometimes a lot of times our food is you know what Costco made that my husband gets put in the oven before I got here. So I'm excited about getting to make some things and getting to do some art projects. That's what I'm Putting my focus in. Now I know, I have a list of things that I can get done remotely, to move my business forward. But every time I think about my list, I also think about, I know that I'm going to be okay. What can I do to help people that are probably not going to be okay? Yeah, that's good. There's so many people that work in a restaurant that are paycheck to paycheck. You know, I have a business savings account. I can cover my bills for a while. at my office. My husband works from home. He we're not going to lose any income from him at all. So what can I do to help other people? That's what I've been thinking about. Yeah. But I, I mean, I'm my, my biggest fear is, I don't know how to not be busy. I know I was thinking the same thing. I think how do I think that problem So maybe I can figure out how to be busy doing more things that are fun. The other thing that I think all of us are going to figure out how to be busy at home organizing and whatever else we can think of. We should people like me and Missy who take care of people all day long. We don't take care of ourselves as much. Right? So we should probably think about doing some self care. Mm hmm. Already on that? Yeah. Are you? Mm hmm. No, I watched your list. I can say I can tell you that. I used to be super busy. And I'm not super busy. Now. As much as I was when I lived in Texas. Also, I've had six months of my husband being retired at home. How's that? Because I'm worried about two weeks in with my husband. And there is an adjustment and he's a I'm married to a really nice man. It's still an adjustment. So you will have those moments, right, honestly. And I just say, I'm gonna go in my room and be by myself, you know, I just take that time, but you learn to do other things when you're not busy working or taking care of kids, like, I still help with my grandkids too. So, you know, I'm trying to do art projects and find things. I mean, I've already raised my kids and I'm having to rethink how do I do all this care at home for these kids. And so, but the business that you have when you're outside working versus coming home, I will say it's an adjustment but you're you guys are creative women, and you're hard working and so you're going to find things to fill your time you think, Oh, I'm gonna retired and I'm not gonna be as busy. That's not true. You just find different things to do because you're productive and because you like helping and because you like doing, you will find other things to do. I mean, that's just, it's God's good that way. He does give us other things and God help us all might instead of hit water, you might have to have some wine and let's be honest Vodka, I'm just kidding. Really. wine, take yourself, take your bath. But you know, God's gonna give you what you need when you need it. I mean, it's amazing. So you think I'm gonna have all this free time no other people are gonna come and look to you for things they're gonna call you. They call you and come to you because they know they can't. And they know you're going to answer they know you're going to cry with them when they cry, and you're gonna laugh when they laugh. And they know that if they call you you'll answer Now, I'm not saying being emotionally available for everybody all the time, but you find new things to do is I guess the point, you know, and and what you said God will find what you need when you need it. So the past probably three or four months, I've been training a new employee and then my employee of nine or 10 years is moving on and it's been really difficult. I've been working six, seven days a week, so maybe this is what I needed. Trying to stay home a little. I think the Lord, the Lord's just sending an adjustment, you know, we've been prepared for this time, as a time we're all prepared for this time we've been placed here. It's not a coincidence that we're all women and Esther's at this time. And you know, you'll find your inner Esther, and you'll, you know, God's gonna put people in front of us, and he's going to give us what we need when we need it. And even if you're a single mom, and you ask for help, just ask for help, because this older ladies are willing to, you know, even if, you know, we, we can watch them on a park bench. We don't have to, we don't have to be in the same room with them. But we can actually watch a kid for an hour or whatever. I mean, you can do that outside. We don't you can, you know, you can do that. So that'll work. Well. And I think another thing that a lot of people don't think about is because we have had this happen in the middle of all the social technology we have you're really not as alone as you could have been. So we have a lot of resources to reach out to talk to ask questions. And you can do it in private message, you can do it over email, you can do it on a Facebook post, whatever it is. And we met I went to a event last fall, where they talked about it was last fall last summer sometime where they were talking about abusive relationships. And I'm going to bring it up during this part because we're about shifting to family dynamics. And, you know, I'm married to a great guy. We've been in business together for seven years. I had my own business before that, but he's had his plumbing business for seven years. So we've worked together. So being home alone together hasn't really sunk into us. And he's part of the essential forces so it he probably won't be home as much as some of the other ones. But on the other side of it, there are women that are trapped at home. home with their monster, there are children that are trapped at home with their monster. So my my point to all this is, is if you're a woman, and you're listening to this, and you're trapped in a situation like that, we are the women that are saying, you can reach out to us, we are the Oregon, saying you can reach out to us. We want you to get stronger. We want to help you get a plan together, we want to get you out of that situation. We will pull all of our resources together to help with that. But we have to know that's what you're involved in and what's what's going on. And we don't want to put you in a date a more dangerous situation while you're trying to get out of that situation. So we will help find ways to do that safely for you and everyone involved. So, again, that's a little side note, but I feel it's important because when we start talking a lot down, you know, that's, I mean holidays is when domestic violence calls go up. It's just Police statistics statistics see YouTube can be a professional speaker. It is a real life statistic that that's when they go up. So it's it's something that I'm not hearing any of the media talk about or any of the police departments talk about. I'm hearing about the police departments being exposed to things and police forces dwindling because of all this. So therefore, it behooves us as warrior divas to do what we can and do our part and be that resource for women. So Alright, so we're going to talk about families you know, we're kind of almost empty nesters. Now, every time we think we're empty nester, one bounce back. I don't know what it is for Allie and cannon and the twins live a little bit down the road but they were here yesterday and they and today doing laundry because their washer and dryers best. It's so kicked them all out of the house before we got on the call tonight and then set myself to a shop to do some what we call arts and crafts time. So mainly I just need a girl time. We all need Girl. Girl time we all get it. How are you? How are you planning to balance the family time with your work time or with your own? Your own sanity? Like Janet hiding in a closet. No, no. So who wants to go first on that one? Don't everybody speak it? Well, I will. And I don't really have I decided since today was my first like real day off in the quarantine and that I was gonna relax today and just enjoy the day with my family. And you know, we ran real quick to the salon. I grabbed all the essentials that I could do self care on myself. So when it's not podcasting I'm gonna do some micro needling and you know things to make myself feel better and look better to, why not? before you make before you make decisions, make sure we talk about the other procedures that we need to do because we need to put them in. Okay? Put them in the calendar. That's where I was going with this is I'm going to kind of create, you know, a plan each day, I'm like, we're gonna work out we're gonna, all those things I'm not doing right now. That's what we're getting. And I would really like to take the time, like even a family workout and you know, spend some more time doing yoga, which I haven't done in a really long time, but I enjoy. So and I get to do more cooking because I'd actually like cooking for my family and things like that. So all of those are, I'm kind of excited. I told my my kids yesterday, I was like, Hey, guys, I'm gonna be home for like, at least three weeks, you know, probably. And my younger son was like, yeah, you know, he really misses me but my older one is He's like, he could care less to be honest. He's like, I'm in my room playing video games with everyone else. So it's pretty much the same dynamic. I have a feeling that my, my spouse will be probably quarantined as of Monday I'm thinking because he works in Dallas County. And they've, you know, done the whole, what is it, um, shelter you have to stay in your, in your house, basically. So, um, I have a feeling they'll be closed on Monday. So then he'll be home and we're not used to seeing each other all the time, even though I love him and adore him. And we're probably gonna have to keep our space social distancing to know. Like you do your thing and go play watch your car shows and I'll go do my thing and work for a little bit. Because I plan on not stop working. I do have things in place for that. So maybe spend a few times a few hours a day working and a few few hours a day spending extra time with my family. The new normal right the new normal Yeah. Yeah. Well Scott actually started working from home last week. So with me being immunocompromised he had got special permission to already work from home once this kind of started blowing up the week before so um, we've had a week now to adjust and so I have you know, my office downstairs, we set him up, his office is upstairs and with the door he can shut and it's gone real well except, you know, the 10 year old who doesn't understand that you know, she's used to when Daddy's home he's played ad so he's fun dad. So he getting her to understand that daddy's actually working eight to five, Monday through Friday and and what those boundaries are kinda look at I think it's been a harder adjustment on Avery than it actually has. Me and Scott to be honest with you, um, one thing I thought was funny in our world is trying to leave God outside if it's sunny we we've gone for walks, we walked three days last week, we went outside and walked, walked to the park, trying to let her play and be a kid. You know, everyone's gone home school crazy. And we just decided, you know, she's gonna learn if she's not missing anything. You know, we did a couple of things, but we just sort of let her be at home and learn how to FaceTime friends like this, this whole environments different for her and I think it's harder on a nine year old, who's used to that consistent schedule. If I get up I go to school. I'm at school till this time and then I have my activities and then boom, it's like spring break, and then everything she does got canceled. So for us, I think it was just letting her have a week to just downshift and deal with that emotional impact without dumping. Now learn. Honor, you know, so I think this week will be an interesting week and how do we now sort of bring in to all this mix the homeschool thing and make sure she doesn't fall too behind? And I just don't intend on being too overbearing about it. And maybe I'm maybe I'm weird that way, but I figured she's ahead. She's smart. Let her just kind of enjoy what she can and do. I mean, do the things they're going to ask you to do but i'm not i'm just not I always said I was arts and crafts. Mom, not school mom. So, you know, like who which one of us can even teach Common Core math. Let's just be honest about that. Like, I can't. So there's only gonna be so much as a mom, I can do anyway because I know. I'm not trained as an educator. So I feel like you guys need to quit coughing I'm getting nervous now. Far away. We're social distance. We're good. All right. Yeah. Well, well, Stacy, what about your kids? You've got school aged kids as well. How are they have they hasn't even hit them yet that they don't have school. And yes, let me talk. You know, I have two sets of kids. So I have a kid that's 29 and 19. And then I have kids that are nine and eight. So and I'm still a mom to both sets. It's a kind of separate though, because the two the 29 and the 19 year old just moved in together in a tent. To an apartment in Bedford, they really like it. And so like I've been helping them I was there yesterday still unboxing stuff. They've been there a month but they have some boxes that they still haven't unlocked. And one of them I will not say which one was waiting for mommy to come by and not the younger one to help him get his stuff on. I mean I'm still momming them I'm still I'm telling them to stay home I brought some masks and some gloves and some Lysol to their apartment yesterday. It's two boys. So having to be mom still mom them even though they're older without being overbearing, and they have been staying home though I'm so excited for them. Because usually they don't listen. And I I kind of taught them the things that they need to do for cleaning. And if they do have to go somewhere like you're not supposed, like even touching the thing when you're done. Getting gas, you really shouldn't be touching that you need to put so that's why I bought brought them some gloves, throw the gloves away after you get your gas before you get in your car. So I have that situation. And then here at my house I have my two girls that are nine, about to be nine and eight and set I'm sorry, eight and seven right now. They have for the entire week. They have been doing homeschool. But kind of haphazardly, you know. They've been doing prodigy and Adventure Time and ABC mouse. But starting tomorrow, they go to a charter school international leadership of Texas. They're actually going to be doing the zoom meetings and they're with their teachers. And we had to do all the technology today. They both they both their school was giving out Chromebooks to the students that don't already have them. We have Chromebooks. They we got them for cursive missed last year. My husband's in it. He thought they needed to learn how to use a mouse. So he bought them Chromebooks. And so they're going to start their zoom meetings. I'm worried about my eight year old because she's dyslexic. And she really needs some extra care. But her dyslexic teacher is going to be on zoom meetings with her too. So I'm excited to see how it's gonna happen because I know it's a new normal for them, too. They have this charter school has 20 schools throughout Texas. So they're doing the zoom meetings with all the schools at the same time. I'm wondering how smooth it's going to do the first day we'll see. And I'm still going to be doing some work also. I'm still going to be on my computer. I have an internship program that I'm working on for the Chamber of Commerce. And then recently, we still have right you can we have time to work on that missing. And then Angie and I are also we are on the leadership Alumni Association, the same leadership class that misty is currently in. Angie and I have already been through the leadership program. And we are on this leadership, steering leadership alumni steering committee. So we're going to try to help put social media together helps steer our alumni helps steer our alumni, we can make sure that our alumni stay still engaged in the chamber after they've gone through leadership. We want our alumni to be leaders in the community. We want our alumni to be part of boards, board of directors in hcb area, and we want them to be the leader. So Angie and I are trying to figure out how to still work on that. A little foreign to them and and challenge them both a little bit. And so I'm going to be working on that and then I like I said, I don't know what I'm going to be doing here. busy. I don't I'm going to keep myself busy doing things I'm not sure how it's gonna go. It's It's my mind is like, do I set up a whole plan of all of these art projects that we're going to get done? Do I cook like so many meals? I haven't decided which things I want to be busy doing. I know. I'm going to figure out how to be busy though. Oh, yeah, yeah, I think we all figure that out really easily, don't we? Yeah, yes. What about you, Misty? Oh, how to how to figure out how to not be busy. Well, what about the kids? What are they doing and shifting through right now? How are they? How are they still on spring break. So they really are, and Burnsville has not figured out what they're doing yet. They're trying Monday, we're supposed to pick up Chromebooks for those who don't have access to social media or like tablets or internet and that type of thing. So we're we're just waiting for them to give us more direction. Right now they're just having a free for all to be honest with you. They're playing video games are eating all the snacks you know that a house in the home that have a 12 year old and a 17 year old boy and then a seven year old stepdaughter so she's here this weekend hanging out with us and that's really cool because normally we don't get to have her all weekend we only get to have our own Sundays and one one night during the week so this will be some extra time we can all spend with her too. Also, I just signed up enough to do the snap ology Lego daily challenge. You seen those but so he made the pirate ship today with his Lego so those are things trying to keep him busy, but they're bored already. I think. Yeah. Well Janet, you're kind of like me, you you've kind of moved on from the little kids at home but you also have grandkids that are around and I know I know Alyssa was doing homeschooling so but Alyssa is also expecting to So that's how I'm a baby in about eight weeks. Yeah, so you're gonna be probably doing some pitch hitting won't Yeah. So yeah, it's it's that new that grandma role which I have adult children, that's still the mean, which I can totally relate to. which is way, way more than I thought it would ever be. It's kind of interesting, but I will say it's just a blessing to have grandkids and we're expecting a new baby boy and I've been able to hear somebody come in here now that I'm talking about these grandkids. And I'm surprised they haven't come in yet. Honestly, I am too hot. And so I don't know. We're finding new things to do. I'm, I'm stealing all the ideas on Facebook and people are putting so many amazing ideas out there. We're doing all that we're just praying for some warm weather. So we can kind of get outside here in Kansas. It's still really cold. We have one nice day and then we have three or four bad days. So I'm waiting for that. But I think getting outside helps you guys. We're not we can get outside, we're allowed to go outside. It's like you can't get outside. I think sort of everybody doing the electronics, take a walk, do something get outside, it's healthy and mentally. And I know one of the small towns here, they were putting the bear the stuffed bears in the windows so that people could go around and find the bears the little kids, find the bears. But find something to do, you know, go on a scavenger hunt, and give them a list of things to go outside. outside. Is that your best bet for a while even if it's cold go outside. I mean, that's, we've missed having our kids outside, they're in school all day. You know, they go do things all day. Now you have an opportunity to kind of reset, like kimsey word, you know, reset, it was a reset, that we use that restart. We said, yeah. Yeah, we had to reset after 911 and we survived all that economically. And we you know, we lost a A lot of stuff after 911 My husband was a pilot that got, you know, furloughed and, you know, this too will all pass but go outside. I mean, family wise, mentally wise, you know, do something outside and you know, the sunshine is good for you the virus dies at 180 degrees I don't know. Right? It's vitamin D and vitamin C are anti viral and so mentally get out some put it on your list to go outside every day and take a walk, do what you have to do, but get them outside. I think it's important. Well, part of the arts and crafts Mike's doing is I bought a boat last summer that's my boat. It's not his boat. It's my boat. It's it can be ours but it's my boat. And so he was just doing some of the last minute touches to make sure it was boat ready because that's one thing we can do. We can go out on the lake we can go in that's socially distances you from quite a few people just being out on the lake. One of the other things that I'm glad you brought up the 911 thing because I've been thinking a lot about that this week. You know, there's a our kids Janet's and my kids and they see you've got one up there too. They were born. And they were in school when 911 happened, you know, so they, Janet and I have children that serve in our country and And me too. I'm a part of a military moms group that has paratroopers that are coming back to the states that are going straight into quarantine. They're not getting the big welcome home. They're not getting all of the pomp and circumstance that goes on with that they're going here's a tent and they're like, I just came from a tent. So the ones that go through the tent, they they're, they're putting them into isolation, barracks and things like that. But you know, Cody, my son is supposed To be leaving the country at some point this week, I was supposed to be in Orlando from Friday until this following this coming Friday, from last Friday till this coming Friday. And then I was going over to spend time with Cody at his duty station before he left the country for six months. And so I had to change tickets. And as I'm changing the tickets, I'm already having the emotions well up about 911. I came out of nowhere. And when the when the planes stopped flying, I didn't sleep for those three days. Because I was I've grown up in ulis. I'm so used to hearing the planes fly, that when the planes weren't flying, it was eerily deafening to me. Yeah, so when the first pilot took off from DFW Airport, I was one of them out there with the guy that had the big American flag and we were listening to the air traffic controllers, talk to the pilots and send them off. And, and so we knew when that happened that our world was forever changed. And we're already we've we immediately saw changes in how security was done and how things were handled security on the cockpit doors, TSA, all of that immediately changed. And one of my friends that's a writer and manages a lot of freelance writers for Thomas Nelson publishing, put out a suggestion the other day to start making notes of the things that you see that may be changing. And I thought that was a really good thing. So in the industry, you're in, in the in your child's life, what was something that was so normal, a week, a month last year, that is either not going to be around or something abnormal. Moving forward, we've been talking about putting Chromebooks and students hands in every student having a laptop or a tablet for years. And it takes a crisis like this to realize that we should have stopped talking about it and just done it. You know, so what does that look like? What are some of the things? I'm going to throw out? One of the things that I thought that I've already thought of with universal pushing movies straight to DVD, I mean, not DVD but DVR, straight to the streaming services, there may not be a major need for theaters anymore. Big Box theaters, wow. At least a drastically reduced number of them. So what's something that you can look at that you're looking at now and you can start thinking maybe it's going to shift medical supplies. Right now China makes most of our medical supplies and I was told by someone who their company, she's a salesperson for the company that that supplies hospitals. And before like, she was telling me Probably, I don't know, a month and a half two months ago. Make sure you buy all the needles that you're going to need for the next year by all the gloves you're going to need for the next year. She said, we're not even telling our hospitals this yet. But there's one ship coming from China right now full of medical supplies, and that's the last one for a while. She said it, it's going to be changed for an entire year. And because they're not working, they're not able to work. They're not making medical supplies. And so now we see here, we are incredibly dependent on China. medical supplies also they they do a lot of our medication too. They do a lot of our What is it called? The one that is not the brand name. Generic Jay did a lot of our generics. And we might run out of certain medications because they do a lot of our generics. They make most of our Tylenol Not the time, like the generic Tylenol, they make most of our generic generic Tylenol. So what I see 85% of her antibiotics, right? So like, we change that, hopefully we change it, we learned the hard lesson and we change it now, well, then I was thinking ramp up, you know, we just ramp up and we do what we do. You know, hopefully that's gonna happen. Well, and we the, the other issue is, are we willing to pay more for it, because the labor in China is much cheaper. And if we make it here, we're going to have to pay our workers enough. So that we can, it will have to pay a little bit more for it because we have to pay our workers so that they can live in the United States. So that's an issue. But I think that we were as a country, we're going to have to look at all the things that were dependent on other countries, and we're going to have to see what we can do to not have this happen to us again. Yeah, Misty Kim. What do y'all have to say? Something that Scott and I were talking about is how, like we had never done online grocery shopping. Like you know, I buy stuff from Amazon but I'm talking about like, ordering your food from like imperfect foods calm or like ordering all your meat from Purdue farms.com like changing the way you grocery shop like we have had, cuz I'm immunocompromised and it's not good for us to get out at all. I'm in that super, super crazy high risk group. So we've been having delivery, delivering all our groceries and like today, we got an email from one service saying that they've had to suspend new members because they're so overloaded right now with new people and I'm thinking wow, this this could come pletely change the grocery store industry because we're so used to going out to the grocery store to get stuff and how many of us will come to realize that we like having stuff delivered on Friday because I go so far, I think it's great. It's not much more money than you know, going to the grocery store. And it's super convenient to order your groceries over three days, and then wham, it shows up at your door. So that was one thing we really thought about how this could really just be a societal change of just like people ordering groceries online, and then maybe there won't be a storefront on every corner the way you see now. Yeah, I think Walmart pickup is the best thing ever invented. Yeah, I love it. Well, like even before, if you haven't done that you need to start. No way. Don't Well in our neighborhood, we live in a older established neighborhood. And it was built when the in the 60s when people were coming in building the airport here, so a lot of pilots and air traffic controllers and things live in our neighborhood. And on our street. There's like three of us that are new newly to the neighborhood. The rest are all original homeowners. So it's it's an older generation and older demographic. And they've kind of gotten into the Facebook group and mastered that Facebook group but some of them are starting to get out there and master that online ordering. It's challenging them to be technology savvy right now. But the beautiful part is is those that are younger in the neighborhood that are going to the stores will say, I'm going to go to the store on Friday. If you have a pickup, put my name down, I'll pick it up for you still keeping some of our older neighborhood neighbors from going out into getting getting out and Not being where they don't need to be so it's really interesting then you talked about the bear thing the other day while ago we did the Shamrock challenge in our neighborhood for a scavenger hunt. And then we we started seeing the kids doing the chalk art out on the on the driveways sending positive messages to people. So you know, it's it's finding different things. Missy What do you think about you anything you can think of that shifting or changing that? Well, I see to like two sides of it, you know, you see the people that are kind of going crazy and taking advantage of the situation but then I also see more people being kind and you know, thinking of others before themselves and like the you know, compromised or the older people that they can they can help them you know, and even yesterday I had made a video on Facebook just letting everybody know I had to close down and you know that we'll be back and and you know Kind of reassuring them, but I got more reassurance for myself is like yes, you will be back and you're going to be stronger than ever. So just that support of people is just pretty amazing. I really have found that and I think it was always there but people are so busy. Yeah, that we don't take the time to share that stuff. So good, positive, that's a good positive thing. You know, if we just come back together, we were divided in a nation, maybe we'll come back together a little bit more. Seems like in times of crisis, that's what we do. Right? And I'm just do you remember after 911? After how, one day, the next day everyone had a flag out? Right? Everyone had a flag out, come together. Everyone was coming together. And maybe that's what is gonna happen right now. Because I'm seeing a lot of people want to do things for others more than ever. Well, and we're seeing we're seeing bipartisanship. up like we've never seen since 99. I mean, we're seeing a lot of things. They may not agree on a lot of the other things still, but they're putting that to the side, they're pushing all that to the side to be able to take care of a nation right now. And the the beautiful part is what I'm seeing on social media is, like you said, people are sharing positive encouraging messages to people. Especially when they see that they've got the resiliency to come back. You know, there's, there's, there's a few people that I know of that have gotten on Facebook and light of messages of what's happening in their area and stuff. And they're blasting you know, and you can tell they're angry and they're bitter and they're in there getting all it'll be okay or it's happening to everybody. You know, you're not in this alone and they're they're getting better back. It's, I guess the beauty thing I want to remind people is in times of crisis is when your squeeze I can't remember if john said or one of the other people said that the virtual thing that I shared with you all today, those sessions with john, he allowed us to share publicly. But behind that we've got all the other trainers that are part of the organization doing live videos with us all day long for the next three days. So I've been watching a bunch of videos live this week. But one of the things I said is when you're squeezed in a time of crisis, what's inside of you is going to come out and so you're getting on and good or bad. Yeah, good or bad. It's coming out. And the What are you made of? Are you made of a I'm defeated? This happened to me mentality Are you made of a you know, pull your bootstraps up Rosie the Riveter we can do it type mentality. And, you know, I'm a Rosie the Riveter lover. So yeah. You know, I'm one of those that I don't think this happens to us. I think we find ways to reinvent ourselves in and reestablish ourselves and we find times during this time to, to be leaders in that dark world we shine that light, we say, you know, you may not feel like you've got a safe place to go. I've got a wing right here. You can take shelter here and bit here a little bit. I'm going to push you out of this nest because you are going to fly even if you have to grow your wings on the way down. You are going to fly you know. And that's, that's what I get from the strong women. I surround myself and all four of you are the strong women I've surrounded myself. Janet has said it to me before there was tell somebody, what was it a while back. The when the twins were born, they just turned what six, so six years ago, I was kinda in the middle of it. I was Sleepless in Seattle or Bedford or her Wherever I was, I was, you know, brain numb. And I think Kim might be able to relate to this a little bit to it. I didn't know enough to reach out and ask for help at that time, because I was just doing what was in front of me. Yeah. And Janet said, you know, I've told she told me flat, because I've told you before, and I'll tell you again, all you have to do is ask for help, and help will be there. But I was still in my own mind of will these people relying on me, so I have to be the stopping point. I'm not the stopping point. I'm a flow through point. Yeah, that's good. We have to be reminded that we are a flow through point of the Holy Spirit of our love of what we fill ourselves with so that we can flow out to those that we are feeding and and loving and nurturing. And we can't nurture something if we are not in a nurturing mindset. It's so I used to imagine that A bunch of people that walk around those little squeezy stress balls, eyes and the ears pop. Like everybody is this Yeah. Yeah, you know, even me, I know I I've touched him with cam quite a bit right when she first got home I went and spent days there and stuff like that. But then even this week I went, Oh my god, it's been a week since we've texted What is going on? Why has she not reached out to me? Is everything okay? And her well, why haven't we gone to? Lee? I'm like, Okay, first off, am I being a bad friend? Am I this? Yeah. But I have to put all those negative things are behind and not say Well, I didn't talk to her this past week. She's probably mad at me because then those mental games will play and then you won't reach out and then you're emotionally distancing and isolating. And they're over there. Just going. No, thanks. It's been good. I was wondering where you're at. I just knew you'd circle around when you weren't busy again. And I was here like, Oh, well. How many I know I'm not the only one that has ever done this? Because I have heard other women tell me this. So, um, you know, as we're talking through some of the some of these, you know, I want to start looking at what are some of the best you have seen in people through this. This scenario, we talked a little bit about how our jobs are changing through all of this already. But you know, what, what are some of the best the most positive things that you've seen in people? Through this? We were What was it? Stacy, we were on a call the other day for the leadership alumni. And, you know, we've got some people on our steering committee who were on the front lines of this and they're just exhausted, right? When they're being told and I'm not saying who they are, where they're from, but when they're being told to pack a bag to bring to work because they don't know if they'll be able to go home. Right. You know, And this is just the beginning of what we're expecting to be a bigger surge and you know, so you know, what are some ways that you could you see positive coming out of it? I know there's other people that are what is it one groups donating every you can go on and put your beer order in. But if you put throw in an extra beer, a four pack or a six pack to your order and donate it to the Fort Bragg soldiers that are coming. That's hilarious. I'm like, okay, that's funny. But you know, what, what are some? What are some of the other things that you you're seeing and hearing? One of the one of the things that I thought was awesome, is we talked about it earlier is when our leadership htb, pivoted, and decided that they wanted to start a group to help the HIV community by posting the things that are most needed. And nobody told them they had to do that. Nobody told them that since their event was called closed down that they had to pivot, they just made a choice. And that's what happens whenever you start building leaders is they lead and that's what they did. So the first thing that I did when I was probably the seventh person invited in the group, and if you guys don't know, I am the, the sponsor of that group. So yes, I am the sponsor of leadership. So she's, she's a black, so I'm like, no, no. So I'm like, when I when I look at it, when I see them doing such great things, I get very excited because I'm invested into it right now. I get so excited about creating leaders and when whenever I get to help, and this is what they decide to do, I'm excited. So I was like, almost in tears, like, Oh, my God, look what, look what they're doing. And I immediately started texting. Rochelle Ross, who is the steering committee leader and said, Oh my god, do you see what they're doing? Like, this is great. Do you see What your Do you see what your what your teaching is making happen in our community? So that that's one of the biggest things that I've seen. And, you know, the last time I looked, I don't know how many people you have in the group now, but there was almost 1000 people in the group when I was blessed. Let me check Where's like under there was like, yeah, there was one I was looking it up 1.4. Okay, so what I mean, that's awesome. All of these people that all live in the HDB area, are able to look and they haven't categorized it into sections. So you can see restaurants you can see this you can see where you can get food, if you don't have food. You can see what food pantries are still are still giving you food. I mean, I just thought that that was so awesome. So that was one of the great things and if you look at the feeds inside the group, people that know nothing of what hcb leadership is are talking discussing. I invited one of my clients to the group who's been living in hers for like 30 years and she was very She posted something and she she got into message. Did you see how great my posts and to see all the people that were? So I mean, it's bringing people together. I thought that that was really awesome. And then and then I also see, like everyone is really trying to go to these mom and pop restaurants and buy food to go local. So I really love that I'm doing it also. But I think that that's great. Those are the things that I've noticed. Yeah. Here's another thing. You know, there's a lot of us who have diabetes, there's a lot of us who have high blood pressure. There's a lot of us who have asthma, those underlying health conditions that make getting the corona virus, you know, more dangerous for, you know, it's going to be more than a cold it could go wonky real quick. So what I've seen is just even after two months of friends and church ladies and just people rallying around my family through the heart stuff you know we didn't want for a meal for about eight weeks. Um we had more food and we knew what to do with we had friends cleaning our house take down our Christmas decorations. I mean you name it it was we had handyman come over and help Scott with cocking a tub. I mean, just you name it, it was done. And those same people now who know that I'm immunocompromised are texting me. Hey, I'm going to Costco. Hey, I have a friend run into Sam's Can I drop food off at your front door. So I just think seeing how humans are so generous. And kind and sweet and people are sending me, you know, we're still sending you extra prayers during this time. Just even that is just so touching and and you know, it just got me thinking, How can I reach out no knowing I'm stuck at home so now I'm with food delivery service. I've texted my neighbors and I'm like, Hey, we're having food delivered on Friday. I'm placing an order this day. Do you guys need me to order you guys anything so trying to help in the way I can. But just if you're able and be mindful of your friends who might be having to isolate more that just even going to a grocery store puts them at risk, right? Because I can't really leave the house at this point then, you know, my husband is stuck and because if he goes out and gets it and brings it in. So being mindful of the immuno compromised and how just if you're going to the store check in, or if a neighbor has run out of toilet paper or needs eggs, be willing to go put it at their front door, just be mindful of that stuff. And I've just seen it in spades more than I can even say, we have felt so blessed and just seeing God's goodness through human beings in such ways I never expected over these last couple of months. Well, and that goes back to those boxes that you're putting out to missing because you know, there's some people that may never ask for help or want to go to a place and get help but that they can go open that box nonchalantly get out what they need are, you know, I had somebody what say, Well, I only had some beans. So I went and put the beans in the box and I grabbed the the whatever Else it was that they needed, you know, and I was like, well, that's awesome that that what you needed was in that box, you know, and maybe somebody else needed those beans, you know. So finding a way to love on people where they're at, you know, with whatever skills or talents you have. Janet, I'm gonna come to you next, but I'm going to preface it with this because on Monday, we were hearing a lot of people, Mike's one of Mike's friends from high school took one of those blue rolls of paper towels, and he is he makes knives, homemade knives. And so he cut one of those rolls in half and he goes, look, I'm making toilet paper, you know? And Mike's like, Yeah, go ahead and do that. Because, you know, once they start flushing that down the drains it's

THE ORPHAN PART 1 TIDALWAVES Silent sound don't mean much to me Silent sound brings out the worst in me I wonder should I lock my door And hide away in my hideaway? Violence found don't mean much to me Violence found beings out the worst in me I wonder should I lock my door And hide away in my hideaway? Hideaways mean a lot to me Tidalwaves bring out the best in me I wonder should I lock my door And hide away in my hideaways? In my hideaway Tidalwaves Dave - guitars and vocals Brian - bass and production CJ - drums BRING THE MALL Bring the mall and crash it to it's knees Grow a dozen spineless wheezing trees Circumstance confronted for a buck Scream and rant and yell "what the fuck" Fourteen in a bottle raze it to the ground Laugh at evil sell it rich to keep you down Boil it up frustration with its sauce Arguments excelsior with the boss Trade a name and number and a look Fish a corpse out of the country brook Fourteen in a bottle raze it to the ground Laugh at evil sell it rich to keep you down Maybe, man, the world don't make no sense So a song reflects a vision that's all pretense In the meeting of the matter of a trillion minds That together all together go collectively blind In the bedrock formed a condo bath In a motion that gives man's epitaph To a surly motherfucker in construction boots With a fortune in his pocket from laundry chutes So gather 'round the stage to see Employment congregations in a word to be Exploited in a question of monopoly That never gives an answer of what's to be For a moment just a moment in a fashion craze And a trillion motherfuckers living in a daze Of a colony that's bitterest of them all In a sentence of an essence, man, bring the mall Bring the mall Dave - guitar and vocals APOCALYPSE TOMORROW Exploding erupting orgasmic and more See through the ceiling and punch through the floor Huff like a big bad wolf and kick down that door Blue like horizons on the oceanless shores Come on Blue is the color inevitably The blues is the core and the Earth is the sea Unkind unkempt ungainly Blue is the color the masses see Blue like the glass hewn desert Blue like the drugs of comfort Blue like the song of the used and oppressed Blue like the mood of the sad and depressed Apocalypse Tomorrow Do you have an armageddon I can borrow The waters rise and suffocate The air hangs burning concentrate Do you have an armageddon I can borrow Apocalypse tomorrow Come On! Dave - guitars and vocals Brian - bass and production Pork - drums SUICIDE NOTE My lips taste the gun and it tastes just like salvation Cold steel on my tongue and it's dogging my salivation Powder residue and an exit wound will be redemption Hemmingway, Cobain, and Hunter S the congregation I'm throwing in the towel, man, I can no longer fight Too many goddamned hardass days too many sleepless nights Just another suicide will be one in a million It doesn't matter anyway to the rotting vast cotillion chorus I'm writing this all down but no one will ever read it As soon as I'm all done I'm gonna motherfucking burn it That way it's a gift to all like Jimi's burning Strat Or maybe it's a gift to none I guess it could be that I'm sobbing uncontrollably scared shitless of this ending Just one twitch and soon enough there'll be no more pretending I can't stop the flow of life remembering through my soul Goddamn, make it stop, one twitch, oh shit I lost control chorus Click, combustion, bullet in the head Yes it is salvation time Suicide is no joke. If you're feeling like shit call the suicide prevention hotline 1-800-273-8255. Hang in there. Dave Dave Linantud - guitar and vocals Brian Lutz - bass, engineering, mixing C.J. Johnson - drums Ian Burke - mastering Recorded and mixed at Possum Studios FEVER DREAM Listen up gather 'round there's a new thing to be found All around everything you -n- me Have a care bout the things everyone get up and sing Bout the way you and me can be free I want a super new computer But no one can ever use her And the only one who knows her is me And if somebody tried to get her They couldn't even find her And the only one who knew her would be me Here's a joke or a screed to all the people now in need Find the truth if you want to be free Give a look or a wink don't care what anybody thinks If you blink then you will miss it to be free And if you think of even lying There's no point in even trying Cause then there ain't no meaning you see? And if that ship just sails away Just take the next ship the next day And say "I didn't think that last ship wanted me" Here's a look for the night when every other thing was right And the only thing that matters here is you Find a hope and a dream if you don't know what it means Well the only one who needs to know is you Come on Take a breath or a day play it every other way If you can't get back to zero then it's right On the beach in the sun in the mountains on the run Find the way to the day to fool the night Fever Dream Dave: guitar and vocals Brian: bass, engineering, mixing Ochster: drums and percussion Ian: mastering, mixing I GOTTA LEAVE The song was wrong all along ain't wrong It's gone just gone away The dream it seems it means to be Free and gone away The song was long the throng is gone Long gone with ease The crowd was loud but now out loud Announce to all I gotta leave Where is the sun to guide us through the dark? Has it begun to even touch the mark? How can it be when ours is just to question why? Where do you go when you never want to die? When the clock becomes the enemy and night time gets so cold Last call for something more than simply growing old How can Iive without that ragged company? It ain't for free Cause I gotta leave yeah yeah yeah I gotta leave 'Cause it ain't for free no no no Dave - guitars and vocals Brian - bass and production Andy - drums and percussion WHY Why me why you why try try to Why not why not you Why should I try to Why am I so blue Why can't I see through Dave - guitars and vocals Brian - bass, production, vocals Andy - drums and percussion THE DRIVER SAYS IT'S OVER, YES "I need to sleep" 's what she said Out loud to none when she bled Emotional projects of despair Wondrously woven through her silk hair Flowing freely like a winter sun That's setting 'fore its work is done It never settles in a sky That's wounded enough to try Conversely the arguments fly Evenly like sandless beaches Grasping at a butterfly that's Floating just outside of reachless Hands that grasp at everything To be or was or so it seems To blast off into evening streams Of sunlight shadow dusty seams Of reason Of treason Of poison Beholden Of superstitious portions of a Brew that's boiling patiently The driver says it's over, yes It's over Transparent transparency Trans piracy Piracy unbroken dreams Cascading falls of brawling emotions Pirated away Spirited away A way difference scorned Crisis crises Spices sailed from foreign lands landing Unhanded Mishandled 'Til the nothingness surrounds astounding Fractured like a broken heart Punctured but still beating Still beating Over and over Yes it's over and over "I need to sleep" 's what she said The moon lurked softly by and by Around the mourning of a sparrow Whistling Neil Young's "Broken Arrow" Harvesting a crop of memories That motion t'wards the center Of a universe that hangs a sign The sign reads "do not enter" The driver says it's over, yes It's over Dave - guitars and vocals Brian - bass and production Andy - drums I WAS BORN I was born in the night Sacrificed to the roving blight I'd welcome death if she'd only suck my breath My only pedigree Is this faceless madding sea Bodies surround me but not one can see me Isolation here for no one and not me My only lifelong quest is to have a painless death I only want to see Where do you run to when you ain't got no home Safely chewed off society's bone A young priest took me in She was bathed in earthly sin I have a pistol but I can't I can't read She gave me love unconditionally She kicked me in the teeth Turned my gun on me I only want to see Why she loves me *coproduced by Ian Burke Dave - guitars and singing Brian - bass, production and engineering CJ - drums Ian - production, mixing, mastering RUN THE FUCK AWAY You're a memory Far as I can see Priestly evil deeds to me Free as lusting chance Bathed in decadance Got it in my pants My pants I'm leaving here today Leaving anyway Gonna live today Today Run the fuck away Got an itch for a more evil dare I'm gone like a song in the air I'm gone like a song in the air I spent my young life running away The more I ran the more I stayed Motion is home to the restless And mad I'm gonna muse my dream Lead me where it leads Lead the voiceless away Leave me the fuck alone Leave me just the motherfuck alone Leave me the fuck alone Alone Pleased to be remembering me well Dave - vocals and guitar Brian - bass, engineering, mixing CJ - drums Ian - mastering FUCK THE HERD Break your back break your face Fall asleep miss the race Scared to be anything Scaredy scared of everything Go People suck people lie Just complain all the time Whine all day fall in line Just fit in it's lemming time So fuck the herd Fuck 'em Cattle sheep chew your cud Stupid and dumb as mud You don't care if it's true Or a lie so fuck you And fuck the herd Fuck 'em Dave - guitar and vocal Brian - bass, engineering, mixing C.J. Johnson - drums Ian Burke - mastering ALL FALL DOWN They tell you to walk before you run But me I want to fly Shake off that misanthropy And try and touch the sky A sky that's cold as winter icicles in May A rage that never really goes away Spend all your spare time looking back 'Cause memories never fade Everything I've seen just seems To be a grand charade Of faceless voices claiming to be the status quo But never let them show you where to go They tell you to think before you leap Lives they just fall down All these wasted people They just burrow in the ground That's hard as screaming arctic glaciers late in June Just another word for a cocoon And so I sit back and think a while Wondering what it's for This grand scheme that builds some dreams And thrashes others on the floor That's crowded by a billion entities and some Who never even heard the starting gun Dave - guitar and vocal Brian- bass, mix, engineer C.J. Johnson - drums Ian Burke - mastering HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT Life is useless so is love Blood is nothing done is done Take me backwards over there Once a lifetime never fair NO Will it ever end I wish it could Where's they sting like it should Life done broke me all fucked up Nothing's happening nothing's up Didn't ask to be here so Let's drop the curtain it's time to go see it said See where you're at How do you like that If I were Shakespeare I'd write a song Of romantic longings and soliloquies sung Death and carnage would not despair The choices made would cloud the air But I ain't Shakespeare I ain't a man I've taken it all I've bitten the hand I've stared at the abstract claiming it's truth I punctured the priest in the confessional booth Didn't care more yesterday How can it seem to be that way when you're dead So where you at How do you like that Dave - guitar and vocals Brian- bass and production Wil - drums HOMELESS I will work for food Often misconstrued Please don't think me rude Baseless, strained or crude Inside out they come I'm the chosen one Sleep with Jesus' son Be the lonely one I will do anything I'm the homeless one Terrorized for fun I'm the chosen one Lest we come undone I will do anything Let me have some food Please give me some food Can I have some food May I have some food Dave - guitars and vocals Brian - bass, engineering, mixing C.J. Johnson - drums Ian Burke - mastering

You are called to Iive victoriously God will give you success in all things.

It’s the topic everyone loves to hear about, but hardly anyone is willing to talk about. And that’s the inside secrets of distribution. Distributors “hold all the chips” so it’s time we find out how deals are made. We sit down with Mike Bridges, who owns Jack's Liquor Beer Wine in Fremont, Nebraska and was once a rep for Nebraska Wine and Spirits which was later purchased by Republic. He talks about what really happens behind those closed doors, who gets allocations (high volume stores vs small mom and pop shops), and consumer frustrations. There’s a lot of ground to cover in this one. Show Partners: Find out what it’s like to taste whiskey straight from the barrel with Barrell Craft Spirits. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about the smoked grain debate. How did you get into bourbon? Tell us about your time in the food and beverage industry. How did you transition into a distributor position? What was the distributor called at that time? How do allocations work? Is there any transparency between the rep and the business? Do they tell you how you can get the allocated items? What motivates a distributor to sell products? How do distributors spend money to get retailers to carry products? Talk about high volume retailers vs mom and pop retailers. Do your distributors take price gouging seriously? How much blame are you putting on the distillers for not getting allocated items? Are they using the distributors to take the blame? Would a distributor advise a brand to raise a price? Do stores ever do favors for distributors in order to get allocated items? What would be a better system? Are allocations really down every year? How has your view changed as a retailer now? 0:00 I'm not bashing the wholesaler so to speak, you know, I consider him like my wife can live with her can live without her. I mean 0:21 what's up everybody it is Episode 236 of bourbon pursuit. I'm kenny. And we got some news to cover, so let's get to it. The Kentucky Derby Museum is back with the legend series. It offers three nights of casual in depth conversations with pioneers and titans of the bourbon industry. And each night in the series is hosted by our very own Fred MiniK in each evening features a different bourbon master who handpicks a selection of Bourbons to go and taste or each legend shares his or her expertise and engages with guests through their senses as they taste fine Bourbons and enjoy appetizers as well, on January 23. We'll have Peggy noe Stevens who was our guest back on episode 198. 1:00 into a fourth on Thursday, January 30. We have none other than Freddy Johnson who we all know and love. And he's been back on episode 59 in 115. And wrapping it up on February 6 is Connor Driscoll who you heard most recently on episode 231. tickets to each event is $75 or there is a complete package for $200. You can buy your tickets right now by going online to Derby museum.org Woodford Reserve has released its annual expression of the double double oak bourbon. It's part of its annual series that celebrates master distiller Chris Moore's his commitment to innovation and craftsmanship. double double oak is the result of finishing fully mature, Woodford Reserve and double oak bourbon for an additional year and a second heavily toasted but lightly charred new oak barrel. The extra year in the barrel creates a bourbon that is distinctly spicier than its original counterpart, known for its sweeter taste and finish. The product is available in limited quantities at Woodford Reserve distillery. 2:00 And select liquor stores around Kentucky coming in at 90.4 proof with a suggested retail price of 4999 for a 375 ml bottle. Oklahoma Attorney General Mike hunter issued an opinion Tuesday that could affect who could potentially obtain a license to sell alcohol and the state. residency requirements for obtaining a retail license for wine and spirits or even though wholesalers license and Oklahoma are likely to be found in violation of the Commerce Clause and the US Constitution. Oklahoma currently has a five year residency requirement for those seeking to obtain a license to sell Wine and Spirits at retail or wholesale level. In other words, a liquor store owner has to approve he or she has been a resident for five years before applying for the retail license. The same goes to wholesalers. Tennessee had this similar requirement of two years residency for some liquor license. And that rule was challenged in the US Supreme Court deemed it unconstitutional back in 2019. So we'll see where this is gonna play out this weekend. 3:00 celebrates 160 years of early times whiskey. So here's a quick history lesson. early times was originally produced using the clinical early times method of whiskey making, and this consisted of mashing grain and small tubs and boiling beer and whiskey and copper stills over open fires. This unique method of production continued until 1918. With prohibition, five years barrels of mature early times whiskey sat idle in the distilleries, classic ironclad maturation warehouses, in dire need of whiskey to operate as a bottler and wholesaler during Prohibition owlsley Brown owner of brown Forman acquired early time stocks in 1923, the company's first ever purchased brand, and it resumed sales under its medicinal whiskey permit. As prohibition came to a close brown Forman geared up to begin distilling early times once again. To keep up with the bourbon brands growth brown Forman acquired the old Kentucky distillery which later became early times distillery providing a brand a home of its own. 4:00 Whiskey popularity grew early times one of the first brands to recognize and capitalize on the mixability of bourbon and cocktail trends, which led to become the number one Kentucky bourbon in America back in 1953. Today the historic plant has now named the brown Forman distillery. But it remains home of early times and stands as the longest continually operating distillery under the same ownership in Kentucky. This year early times is honoring their tradition with a throwback advertisement that once said, The whiskey that made Kentucky whiskeys famous. If you follow bourbon pursuit on any of our social handles, you seen that Ryan and I we took a quick trip to Woodinville whiskey company last week. We took the 6am flight from Louisville to Seattle drove up to Woodinville, which is surrounded by 100 plus wineries and sat down with the co founder Brett Carlyle and got to know more about their story and what they're producing for an upcoming podcast. Then after that we tasted through some barrels and selected to that will become prestigious 5:00 series, y'all, Ryan and I, we can't even begin to describe how good their bourbon is. They're doing everything right with locally sourced grains, a finely tuned still an operation that was under the guidance of the late great Dave pickerel. He goes going into the barrel at 110 proof aging and Rick structures two hours away that mimic the climate of the Midwest, and nothing is getting pulled until it's the least five years old. And if you're in the know already, and you've tasted it, then you're probably already a fan. But we are super excited to be able to get these special barrels into the hands of all of you soon and looking forward to an eventual release from Woodinville whiskey as well. Make sure you follow us on social and Patreon for all the latest updates for pursuit series. For today's show, it's one of those podcast topics that people love to hear about. It's the inside Secrets of the trade that usually no one's willing to talk about. However, we sit down with Mike bridges. He owns Jack's liquor, beer and wine in Fremont, Nebraska. He was also once a rep for distributor for 6:00 braska wine and spirits, he talks about what really happens behind those closed door deals. Who gets the allocation? Is it the high volume stores? Or is it the small mom and pop shops? And where does most of that consumer frustration really stem from? We cover a lot of ground in this one, I'm sure you're really going to like it. You know, we like to see what people think of the show as well. Leaving reviews helps new people searching podcasts, find us. And you can help us by going to rate this podcast.com slash bourbon. And you can leave a review for iTunes, Spotify or pod chaser. We always appreciate seeing these as it helps grow the show and find new listeners. All right, now let's get on with it. You can sit back and relax. Let's hear what Joe has to say from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich with above the char. 6:46 It's Joe from barrell bourbon. Tasting whiskey straight from the barrel was truly a life changing moment for me. In 2013. I launched barrel craft spirits so everyone could have the experience of tasting whiskey, a cast strength next time ask your bartender for 6:59 barrell bourbon. 7:01 I'm Fred MinnicK. And this is above the char. If you follow me on Instagram, you may recall this post I put up a few few months ago. It was when I was in California. Somebody had brought me a bottle of war Bringer mesquite, smoked Southwest bourbon finished in a Sherry cask. I was very excited to taste this because anytime I see mosquito on anything, my mouth starts to water. And I think of my childhood days eating all that great mesquite smoked barbecue sopping up that sauce with a piece of white bread. I love mesquite barbecue, so good. But anyway, I digress. I'm not talking about barbecue. I'm talking about whiskey. So I was very excited to taste this stuff. And which bag did I put it in? I put it in my carry on not my check in so TSA was very glad to take the bottle from me. They actually thanked me later and said they would have a good time with it. So 8:01 You're listening to say, I hope you enjoyed it, but you also kind of suck. So anyway, I get a bottle sent to me from the company because I really wanted to taste this stuff. And I tasted just the other day and I was kind of like nervous about tasting is because I love mesquite so much that I kind of, I'm always I'm always a little nervous when someone plays around with one of my favorite flavors. And sure enough, it kind of hit the mark. I tasted the musky, you really cannot. You can't. You can't taste this without getting a big ol mouthful of mesquite and it got me to thinking what are some other products out there that are using smoke techniques for the grains? Well, there's actually quite a few. One of my favorite is the MB Roland dark fire they use a dark 9:00 Fire technique to smoke their corn. Dark fires a term that they use in Western Kentucky for a procedure in which they kind of like slow smoke the tobacco before they roll it up and in be rolling, which is in Christian County, Kentucky, applied that nice local technique to their whiskey and it shows and they're fantastic. But here's the thing. They are so far left or to the right, of what we anticipate bourbon to taste like that. If you put if you put this in a flight of regular Kentucky bourbon, you know this mesquite smoke bourbon or the dark fire bourbon, you're going to think it's flawed if you don't know it's got a special smoking technique to it. So over the years, we have had all of these incredible debates about whether or not barrel finishes such as angels envy. 10:00 In fact, urban on now, when you have the smoking techniques being applied, we might have to start applying a new debate to the conversation of what his bourbon is bourbon allowed to have smoke applied to the grains. I think that's a question. We need to start asking because traditionally it has not been applied to grains. Now it's, it's applied throughout in scotch and Irish whiskey. But if we start seeing a political of smoke grains enter Kentucky bourbon or other states Bourbons, then what we're going to find is there's going to be all kinds of different flavor profiles in Kentucky bourbon, or Missouri bourbon or whatever type of bourbon. You may think that's good, some traditionals may think it's not. Either way. I'm open for 11:00 debate. I think it's a good conversation to have. So hit me up on Twitter, Instagram or Facebook and let me know your opinion as to whether or not smoked bourbon should in fact be bourbon or should it be called something else? So I look forward to your comments and we may even read them on the air in the next episode of bourbon pursuit. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, hit me up on that Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook at Fred minich. Until next week, cheers 11:37 Welcome back to that episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon the trio here tonight talking for a really fun subject because this is actually one that we had talked about it for probably Ryan and I, we probably discussed it for maybe over a year to now of trying to find somebody from the I don't know it's tough to kind of say like put an adjective to a 12:00 But from the distributor world, and having to come on the show and kind of reveal some dirty secrets, because it's, it's something that's really, really hard to get, you know, nobody for the actual companies seem to want to talk about it. But we kind of backdoored a little bit to actually make it happen. So I'm kind of really excited to get this juicy scoop on what happens and why liquor stores get certain allocations why some don't do some play favorites. Some, some maybe do some don't. I don't know. But I guess we'll find out. Uh, you know, what do you all think we're going to get into tonight, Ryan, I'll hand it over to you. 12:36 Well, I think distributors are an evil empire and an organized mafia. 12:44 But I you know, with that, I don't exactly know what all goes on what takes place. So it would be I am interested to see what goes on and what takes place and you know, maybe there's a world we don't understand and and why. Maybe 13:00 Our negative outlook on distributors is maybe not the correct one but I have a feeling it might be and so yeah, just bring it to you. You're already like my magic eight ball I already know what it's gonna say exact I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt you know so that's why we have them on but I know for sure really excited about because like I said we we hit on distributors all the time and especially being in the business now we've made them more so well I mean, let's give some context of the story like so what what is it that that we're it let's not say hate right we're not hate because we have to work with them. It's it's a nice Yeah, well, but kind of talk about like, what is the what what's what's the what's really grinding your gears right now with it? I mean, basically, it's just a pastor in you know, for big brands, I can totally understand because the distributors out there marketing and selling for you, helping push product but like small brands, it's really just a pastor and it it seems like they're just getting a piece of pie just because it's mandated through law. 14:00 And it just doesn't seem fair right to the people that are actually making the product don't make as much money as the distributors or percentage as much as distributors or the retailer. And and you know that's that's why I don't like it. Wish we could all be DC Yep, exactly we got a we got a long way to go until that happens. What about you Fred Do you have a Do you have a probably as a more realistic outlook on love or disdain some of my best friends are distributors like very higher up high very high up in the food chain and San Francisco world spirits competition has several fellow judges who are distributors so I know the business very well. And and I know kind of you know that they are the they are the cogs that really make this this world work. And they also have a very powerful lobby and it's 15:00 It's incredible. It's incredible, because, you know, what a lot of Ryan said is is not untrue. And the distributors would say the same thing. 15:14 You know, big, but at the same time, the reason why distributors are they have so much power is they can always go to like, you know, the government and say like we are the We Are the line of legal age drinking, like you don't have 15:36 people ensuring that accounts aren't serving, 15:41 you know, serving to minors and the distributors actively, actually kind of, you know, police that so they they have built in a network in the in this country that our government cannot cover and so when 16:00 It when we ever come to talking about getting rid of distributors, they can always raise their hand and say, well, we're kind of the reason why your 16 year old isn't getting drunk all the time. And that and that's the picture they paint. And you know, maybe it's accurate, I don't know, but 16:17 they're very good at protecting themselves. It kind of sounds like the TSA because the TSA is never actually stopped a terrorist attack there a false sense of security in the day, so I don't know. I mean, so I'll give you my TSA story. The, in their defense, I was in, I was unlovable, and a guy ahead of me, had a loaded handgun and shin and as he should know, he should I mean, I think the general populace knows you can't walk in with a handgun today. This is like a 55 year old guy and he's like, oh, man, I left him in there. No, I thought it was a my check in. Yeah, I don't know what happened to him. I mean, I I looked but I never saw 17:00 reports about it, but he, but I don't know what he was going to do with that. But I know that TSA stopped that guy with a loaded handgun from getting into the low level plane. So Well, that's a first I'll give you that. 17:15 Alright, so let's go ahead and introduce our guests tonight. So tonight we are today, whoever whenever you're listening to this show, we have Mike bridges. Mike is the minority owner and general manager of Jax liquor and wine in Fremont, Nebraska. So Mike, welcome to the show. Thank you. It's great to be here. Absolutely. So before we kind of dive into this, you know, I kind of want to give people an understanding of you would always like to start off with one question is, how did you get into bourbon 17:42 to the modern age bourbon, I got into it. When a guy named Brett Atlas stumbled into our store, and he's, he's a, he's a he's a friend of the show. I think we're all pretty relatively familiar with him. 17:55 Before that, it was just drinking it but you don't only walked up to the counter 18:00 With about 17 different bottles of things. And so I started asking questions and, you know, we had some Elijah Craig 12 year old label both sizes, we hit, you know, 750s 175 we had some before 18 years and different things. And that conversation led to another conversation which, you know, he mentored me on things to look for and things to ask my distributor for. 18:23 Oddly enough things that they wouldn't volunteer to me, unless I, you know, started asking the questions. When I worked for the distributor, six, seven years before that. 18:33 My biggest experience with bourbon is when Maker's Mark we couldn't get 175 or leaders because they ran out of juice and they were low on supply. So that would have been 2007 2008. So it was, it was pretty interesting. But yeah, it's a it's been a world of change since basically 2015. You know, that let you say that. I don't even think Maker's Mark still makes the 1.7 19:00 Five do they favor? Do they ever come back? I can't remember they do. Absolutely they do now right that's the number one the number one skew in like you know five or six party martes no 19:15 big ballers up in there then so I guess kind of let's okay let's let's rewind the clocks a little bit, kind of talk about you know your time working in the the food and beverage industry as well because I know you had mentioned that before we started recording. You know, when I was in Phoenix for the 16 years I was there I was at the Venetian resort all 16 years, and was everything from a banquet server all the way up to director destination services when I left and move back to Nebraska where I'm from so that's kind of where it was, but those years were all spent in the wine world. So when I came back to Nebraska and got my job within Nebraska wine and spirits, I was considered quote unquote a wine expert and did a lot of 20:00 My own wine dinners for my customers and things like that. And again, other than drinking knob Creek back in the day, and learning what Maker's Mark was when we didn't have it to sell and getting yelled at by every account. 20:14 That's kind of where it was and how it went. 20:19 And then so that was at the Venetian and then kind of talk about your transition into working for the distributor side. You know, oddly enough, I just took a director of food and beverage job at the brand new Hilton in downtown Omaha, when I got a call from an old high school coach of mine who was in the distributor business, and asked if I really had any interest in moving to my back to my hometown, as he had a salesman job that he thought I'd be really good for and good at. And that's how that started. That's how that came to be. And that was back in 2006. It's always about knowing the right people. Very true. Nobody, nobody actually applies for a job anymore. It's just all inside handshakes. I think that's how it all goes. 21:00 You know, it's ironic about that I had applied at three different distributorships before that, and never gotten an interview. 21:07 This will show them exactly right. If I didn't do Fred's yard, or no Kenny, they would not be part of bourbon pursuit. So there you go, that 21:18 looks nice this year, by the way. 21:21 Let's see what happens. You know, he actually sharpen my blade on my mower. Fred, does he do that for you? Fred doesn't know. You know, I actually don't mow my yard right now. 21:35 So back to conversation here. So you were working. What was the distributor called at that time? Because I know you had mentioned it. It eventually got either bought out or purchased by a larger one. Yeah, at the time it was Nebraska wine and spirits. And then there was also united distillers which was a separate side. So Nebraska Wine and Spirits was being if you will, and united was brown Forman and then Republic national distributing company came into 22:00 State bought both companies and then you had a Falcon and Eagle division in Nebraska, and are in DC. Gotcha. So just that the Empire just keeps growing for, for Republic then correct? Yep. So let's, um, you know, I guess let's let's kind of dive into the meat of the subject here because this is, this is one of the things that people are always fascinated to know more about. And I mean, let's just kind of just go blunt and straight into it, like, how do allocations work? Like how do people get something of one thing versus something else? 22:35 You know, it's gonna sound wrong, but it's pay to play. And I don't mean illegally pay to play. It's I asked that question for year three years ago. How do I get more allocated items? How do I get barrel pics? How do I do this stuff? And basically it was support the brands that those portfolios are part of stack them high in the store, and you know, so we did it and we have an owner, a majority 23:00 owner with with endless funds and we bought and stacked and if you came into our store it would, it would kind of probably surprise you for the for the small sizes, the amount of displays we have and how big they are. I know we're talking bourbon but it's not odd. We buy 1200 cases of Windsor Canadian at a time just because it's so popular in Nebraska. I've always got 100 beam on the floor. I've got 50 to 80 Maker's Mark. And then you go to Sam's rack and everything they they do often 200 fireball, you know everybody's favorite whiskey on the floor. And that's how we got to where we are. And it really did you know last year when we got to do an O w a barrel a Blanton's in a Buffalo Trace all at the same time was kind of, if you will, our arrival and yeah, but we had to really invest in that to get to where we were. Then if you fast forward to where we are now. I've got some executives from RTC coming out tomorrow because I don't feel I'm getting what we deserve. 24:01 was certain things that are coming out. 24:04 And based on allocations, so they'll tell you that but yet, when things like old fits 13 year spring edition come out, every account gets one bottle. So whether you buy a lot or you don't I know that's a different distributor. But it gets very frustrating to display what you do and invest what you do, and then sell it and then get the same one bottle allocation everybody else does or the other 60 people in the state and nobody wants to believe that they come into your store and you tell them, Hey, we got one bottle and it went to our best customer. They will not leave you they'll sit there and argue with you. 24:41 Is there any like transparency that happens between a rep and the business? Because when I when I think about this, you know, I come from a tech background and there's a lot of stuff out there about like open data collection like the government does it and you have access to be able to see exactly like what's happening here. 25:00 There, but is everything sort of like, Hey, my name is Jim, I'm your account, whatever you want, you have to go through me. And you say, Jim, I bought, you know, XYZ cases last year, I want to be able to get a, b and c. And he's like, that's just not in my calculator. Like, is there something that like, there's their level of transparency there? Or is it just completely like, all blocked off because of one person? You know, it's a little of both. You really, it's constant, constant constant, you know, badgering of that salesperson who then has to get ahold of his boss, who then has to get ahold of his boss. Just recently, As matter of fact, last week, whistlepig became available in the state of Nebraska. Well, we've known it's been coming for about, I don't know, six weeks. So I texted my salesperson to say, Hey, I hear whistle pigs in stock. When will it show up? He's like, No, it's not. And so I screenshot at an event in Lincoln or in Omaha, Nebraska that was doing a launch party for whistlepig 26:00 Yeah no idea and neither did his boss and so that's why nobody's get nobody sharing emails is no that's why they're coming out to me with me tomorrow you know because then I throw a fit to say listen I'm not saying that I should get all this allocated whistlepig or I should be the first shot at it I just want to be communicated to because we have customers that walk through that door or text or message me all day long about hey, I see whistle pigs here I'm going to stop out and get some oh sorry we don't have any and then they again some will understand and others flat out call you a liar that oh yeah you did who who got it Brett who got it George who got it you know and they'll sit there and try to pick off names about who gets what and why they got it. 26:45 So I think up front like say like so this is how many Is it like you said the walkers whiskey. I don't even know what she said blended whiskey, and this is how many This is what it's going to take to get on those how allocation was 27:00 Or did they even give you a number to shoot for? Or like, here's the plan, you know, to get to those? 27:06 Or is it just like, spend as much as you can? And we'll get over that later. We'll figure it out. Yeah. That you know what, you just nailed it. It's like, you know, by everything we have to sell, yeah. In the month each month, we're going to have deals and not listen. I'm not bashing the wholesaler, so to speak, you know, I consider him like, my wife can live with her can live without her. I mean, 27:30 we need them as much as they need us. And that's the frustrating part. But so yeah, it's, you know, 27:39 to start, you know, or one of the little story was two years ago, after all the beats that came out and Pappy allocations came out. They came in into November, wanting to know if I would do a buy on 1792 small batch. And I said, well, what's the deal and that was something like buy 20 cases get a free and I don't think they thought I was going to say yes, I said, Well, yeah, that's 28:00 a no brainer. 28:01 Yeah, they had their bosses with them. And all of a sudden he's like, yeah, you know, getting the computer, I think we can get him another three GTS is, you know, for doing this. And so I looked at him and I just said, that's what irritates me. You got extra bottles because I bought this now Come on What will you know, what is the deal here? Why wouldn't that have been distributed according to who buys and who deserves it? A month ago when it got distributed? Why do you have bottles sitting back? You know, they'll tell you Oh, we had people that didn't pick up or, you know, named me one retailer that gets allocated three bottles or something like that, that doesn't pick it up. We're going to do it every time. So you know, it's a little bit frustrating. But yeah, that's to answer your question. There's no general number other than, hey, just buy and we'll make sure you get taken care of so we're getting taken care of is you know, there's never enough to go around. You know, if I get last year, probably mix and match. 29:00 13 to 14 bottles of Pappy Van Winkle between the 10 year all the way up to the 23 year. Well, those are gone before they even hit the store. Because we sell them to the to our best customers. 29:11 We don't play favorites, but I've had people come in the store and just yell at me as to why I don't have the lottery for those. Well, I understand that but at the same time, then how do I explain to one of my regular customers that spends $1,000 a month? Oh, yeah, you're not going to get any because we're going to we're going to raffle these off. So people that don't shop here get them. 29:33 So let's go back to your distribution days for a minute. Okay, what was your What was your last year as a distributor? 2013 14 Okay, so you wouldn't you have you experienced a little bit of the boom you experience some of the rise of the craft, the craft brands. This is something I get told by a lot of craft distillers. Now craft is that you know 29:59 People can, can say it's good, it's not good. But the fact is, is they get distribution in a lot of these markets. 30:08 And then the bottles just sit in their warehouse. The distributors do nothing to try and promote the brands or get them in a store or To my knowledge, even put them in a catalog to say, Hey, this is why we have an inventory. They're just sitting in a warehouse and hoping that and those those distillers are hoping that someone finds out about them. 30:32 What what gets a distributor to get off their ass and try and move product for a supplier? The distiller you know, Fred, I think there's there's two ways about that. Oftentimes, 30:48 I read all your guys's publications and listen and so forth. I learned things from you guys, months before our distributor has a clue. So I will like do a screenshot and say hey here 31:00 A particular product that please look out for me put it on my list. I really want this. And all the way up to the top that respond. Never heard of it. Well, yeah, it's coming. You know, the most recent one was well, or full proof. 31:13 You know, an Elmer t hundred anniversary or the 100 proof that's coming. There's things like that that they don't know about. So to answer your question, a lot of those craft distilleries and craft products, it has to be something that we as retailers have heard about, that we asked about, and then they will, they'll research or so to speak and then oh, yeah, I do carry that by the way. Unless somebody is really putting the pressure on them to get it out into the market. It has to you have to ask about it. Those salesmen have too many other brands and too many other pods if you will, that they have to hit to get it out the marketplace and you're right even as a salesman. I'm going to be honest with you. If it was the end of fiscal whether that was June or December for a certain brand, I was going 32:00 After things that I was going to make a bonus on, I was going after, you know, our biggest suppliers on the on the liquor and the wine side to make sure I hit those numbers because that's what ensured I kept my job. So, so let's stay Let's stay on the distributor side. Yes. One question about that because I heard some lingo and there wasn't familiar with what's a pod? Yeah, what's a pod? A pod is a placement. So if Yellowstone which is in Nebraska and I happen to be a big fan of hits the market, they might have certain amount of pods they have to hit and a pod means they have 15 accounts they need to do a placement of which is basically a three bottle placement. If they get a three bottle placement at our store, that particular sales, we got his pod for that brand. The problem is they come into the store with 22 different brands that need placements or pods, and then it becomes a real estate issue within a store. 32:54 Gotcha. Now we're now we're starting to talk your language. All right. So when we so let's take a look 33:00 Look at like, 33:03 like how the distributors spend money with with on premise and off premise. As you know, it's illegal for them to say, Hey, here's some cash carry this correct, but they do spend money in stores, what? How are they able to how are they able to slip under the law to give retailers and bars, money to carry products? You know, I don't think a lot of that goes on in Nebraska anymore. I'm not going to say that it doesn't because I think there probably are some exceptions and some things that just don't add up. But it was something that wouldn't add up. Give me an example. You don't have to name any names. No, it's a certain store getting four bottles of let's say, Buffalo Trace William Lou Weller 34:00 The antique collection and I look across the street going huh? They do about a 10th of the business we do. And all of a sudden they got these bottles and the same time those bottles showed up Look at this huge Southern Comfort display that showed up well Southern Comfort Zone by my sash rack. So they need to go in there and figure out a way to get that Southern Comfort in there. To me to Southern Comfort number What a way to entice them is with some bottles, or I know it's tapping with with cash or, or goods dealer loaders as they call them. 34:35 That from golf bags all the way to whatever that used to run rampant when I was a salesman I saw that all the time. But to that question, Fred, the 34:47 the how the mom and pop distributors going away and corporate america if you will, the southerners the r&d sees Johnson brothers, that corporate cultures kind of put it into a lot 35:00 That stuff. Again. I'm pretty sure it goes on. I've heard stories and I see things but yeah, that that's kind of how that works. 35:09 Well, you know, you go to certain resort destinations and Dr. Usha will own the entire bar. You know, they'll own entire liquor stores. You go to Vegas and beemo have an entire hotel. You know, so it's like these things are not just happening because the the the bar owners and the hotel owners happen to be big fans of those particular products. I mean, something's happening somewhere. Yeah, there's somewhere Oh, there there absolutely is, you know, it could come down to to free goods or any of that stuff. You know, the conversation as the retailers I had because we are one of the bigger ones in Nebraska from a volume standpoint. 35:56 You know, if you ever thought about trying to give us money or bias 36:00 You know what, take whatever money you were going to give us and knock the bottle costs down so we can make money. 36:06 It's never come to that and we never do that. But yeah, I guarantee you, there's some of that stuff going on. Now my son, my oldest son happens to be at on premise salesman in Omaha. And yeah, there's times where brown Forman or or beam or people will go into a certain bar or a ballpark or college world series, a certain bar down there. I remember Cruz and Ron took over probably the most popular bar in Omaha. I'm assuming they give them all these umbrellas and all this other good stuff. And yeah, they'll do that. So. But if if there's money under the table or things like that, I'm not I can't 100% say that it happens. I'm sure it does. So your son's in the business. That means Thanksgiving and Christmas must be kind of heated sometimes. Yeah, the dumb little kid. Thanks craft beers where it's 36:58 from all of our barrel pics. 36:59 crying out loud. He's the you know, he's, we he's been to Kentucky with us three times. We're going back again in July. And, you know, every time he shows up for the holidays, he wants to bring some pretty beer. 37:13 So there is a there's a good question that came in in the chat here from Mike bliss. And it's kind of talking about the difference in high volume retailers, you know, you're talking to the total wines and liquor barn to the world versus some value, add specialty retailers that are sort of your your mom and pop your corner shops and stuff like that. Where did the where does the line draw in what distributors do in in what they're able to allocate? Or how do they decide, oh, well, this this store does insane amounts of business. You know, we don't even have to sit there and have an argument with them. We're just going to go and sell a bunch of stuff. You know, sure. They've got it. They've got to take care or make happy multiple entities. You know, you've got on premise you've got off premise so yeah, sure bars 38:00 Need a certain allocation as well, you hope that they expose that to more drinkers based off of you know, 20 something pours out of a bottle that's going to go out to a bar customer whereas we're selling it by the bottle 38:14 it's a 38:16 it's my argument with the wholesalers. It's my argument it's my fight to say how does a little bar out in western Nebraska in a town of 300 people get just as many bottles of blood off pack five as I do, I don't understand that. Especially again, even with that portfolio, I support Rebel Yell and all those brands as well. 38:39 And it gets tiring for me because I have to then throw a fit and have a conversation with people as to what's going on. I don't want those people to not get products I understand that they need to build a business. But building a businesses in this this industry bourbon, if you will. You got to spend money as well. It's no different than any 39:00 else did you invest money in to build your business? So I guess I kind of want you to talk about that a bit more. Because you know, you were talking about, you know, how does this bar in the middle of nowhere with 300 people get the same allocation of something. But honestly, like, how does that happen? Like, is there? I mean, you were on that side at one point like is, is the internal 39:22 workings in here to say, all right, well, let's say all four of us work for a distributor, we all cover different patches, we all get 25% of the allotment, and we go decide how 25% we're going to go and do it in our particular market. Like is that is that a typical thing? Like, how does it happen internally, Kenny, don't say that 39:42 happens. That's the other frustrating part. They'll get these allocated items that come into the warehouse, and they'll say, okay, Division Two, you get five bottles, Division Three, and I'll go down the line and then they'll let these guys decide where they go. Well, you can then get up you can say, Well, I have a really good friend that owns 40:00 liquor store, I'm going to make sure he gets a bottle. He doesn't even buy anything from that portfolio. But he does carry Barton vodka as well. And so they'll get those certain things where my fight with them has always been, hey, somebody at the top of your company needs to start looking at these Bourbons it is what makes this this liquor industry tick right now and make sure that you're taking care of people that that one work hard to get it in the right people's hands, you don't want to get it into flipper hands and things like that. And yeah, I take a lot of criticism at our store. Because I asked for ideas when people come in to buy stuff I want to know who they are, I want to get to know them and I want to make sure I'm not going to find it on the secondary market. And you know, as I did yesterday, oddly enough with one of our knob Creek barrel pics that just came in, 40:52 you know, in the in the state of Nebraska, if you will, it's and I know I'm getting a little off off par here off topic, but it's 41:00 illegal to buy or sell alcohol if you don't have a license, or you can't buy it from somebody without a license. So that flipping market or secondary market is is very much against the law in Nebraska. But you know, I want to make sure the people that are buying bourbon and so forth, it's getting into the people's hands that want to enjoy it, share it and develop it. So that's my other fight with the wholesalers to say because there are stores in Omaha that we can all walk into right now and you can pay $199 for a bottle of Elmer t that sitting on the shelf you can pay 199 for a bottle of Blanton's, you can pay 3000 for Pappy and, and I don't understand how those people get an allocation when that's how they put it on their shelves. And the distributors have now said they agree and that they will not get future allocations because of that. We see it all the time here in the local. There's plenty of stores that Yeah, the right now you can go you can find a bottle of one as well or 107 it will have a 42:00 $99 price tag on it. There's a few stores in the city that do it. However, it's not stopping them from getting allocation continual. So I mean, do you mean when you were on that side? I mean, I don't think gouging or price markups were that big I think in 2014 timeframe, but I mean, are you starting to really think that distributors are taking this serious? I think they are. I think they're starting to figure it out. Again, this is all new to them too. This is brand new territory for them, you know, they have to understand that retailers like myself and others. What's most important to us right now is those allocated items and those Bourbons and that diversity and that's that variety and selection. 42:43 You know, when will it came to Nebraska, all I'm gonna say six months ago. 42:48 Maybe it was a little longer than that. But you had to buy everything they owned before you could get a couple bottles of their family estate stuff. And sure enough, we did we bought all the pot still the nose mill the roads. 43:00 yield Bardstown, pure Kentucky, all that stuff. And I've still got it all over our store, still have yet to see any family estate stuff come in. And the Johnson brothers distributor will say, well, we got to take care of, you know, some of our other customers. Well, this is where I will point the finger. Well, those other customers are the ones that buy hundred cases of barefoot wine. And we all know who those customers are. So I don't do that. And I won't buy barefoot wine at 100 cases at a time. So I can sell it at $1 higher than the grocery store. But that's where you're going to find the family estate stuff in Nebraska. 43:35 So let's take a look at the suppliers to distillers. 43:41 You keep bringing up these portfolios. And you're talking about, you know, largely Sazerac. You've mentioned a couple others you just mentioned, will it you know, at what, 43:54 how much blame are you putting on the distillers here in this equation? And are you really thinking 44:00 That they might just be using the distributors as kind of like a front man for the bad guy. 44:07 With the careers of master distiller spanning almost 50 years, as well as Kentucky bourbon Hall of Famer and having over 100 million people taste his products. Steve nalli is a legend of bourbon who for years made Maker's Mark with expertise and precision. His latest project is with Bardstown bourbon company, a state of the art distillery in the heart of the bourbon capital of the world. They're known for the popular fusion series, however, they're adding something new in 2020 with a release named the prisoner. It starts as a nine year old Tennessee bourbon that has been finished in the prisoner wine companies French oak barrels for 18 months. The good news is you don't have to wait till next year to try it. Steve and the team at Bardstown bourbon company have teamed up with rackhouse whiskey club rackhouse whiskey club is a whiskey the Month Club on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer. Their December box features a full size bottle of Bardstown suffusion series and a 200 45:00 milliliter bottle of the prisoner. There's also some cool merchant side. And as always with this membership shipping is free. Get your hands on some early release Bardstown bourbon by signing up at rack house whiskey club.com use code pursuit for $25 off your first box 45:19 how much blame are you putting on the distillers here in this equation? And are you really thinking that they might just be using the distributors as kind of like a front man for the bad guy? 45:30 Um, you know, I don't think so. I honestly, you know, having been out there doing barrel pics now, for the last two and a half years I've kind of learned that. You know, the Steelers are pretty hands off. You know this. The distilleries, they've got the people that their suppliers that go to market. 45:47 I think some of the distilleries would be pretty amused and amazed at what actually goes on in the marketplace. I don't think they have the time. It's like a you know, 45:58 a time or that time to under 46:00 And all that goes on with that. They're probably like, if you're taking 25%, you better earn it. I don't care how you earn it. 46:08 You know, listen, those suppliers put those financial goals to those wholesalers to say, this is what needs to happen. And so then I think the wholesalers do whatever it takes to do it, because they don't always know what they're dealing with and what products they have in their portfolio. 46:24 So does it would a distributor like tele brand, say like Buffalo Trace, for example, because we keep using them because they're so popular, but 46:34 would they tell them or advise them that, hey, you need to raise prices because we need to kind of slow down this demand or what a distillery does that that who decides pricing? I guess, I think that comes from either to, you know, on that particular case that either comes from Buffalo Trace or SAS rack. And I can speak to that that's most definitely the distilleries they dictate SRP which dictates the wholesale price 47:00 Mt. 47:01 Mike if I'm wrong with this, correct me, but the the wholesaler price is usually half of what the SRP is, and then they mark it up, you know, 15 20% to the retailer and then you guys mark it up whatever is left in the margin about right. I would say that's pretty close. from what I gather, I don't think there's as much margin on that first leg that you mentioned from the to the wholesaler what the wholesaler buys it at, so to speak. 47:34 You know, so that they are that's a little tricky, if you will. 47:40 Again, and maybe it's because I'm biased from a retailer standpoint about how much we mark stuff up. But you know, I just saw somebody got a barrel of Blanton's here in Nebraska, ours isn't going to be here for another six weeks and I saw what they posted their bottle price and I'm just like, holy crap, did plans go up again? Or am I just stupid selling it for 55 48:00 dollars a bottle still, you know, also, but our customers, you know, that's what we want to do so, but yeah, to your to your point. I think that's really strong at the distillery and that's why I've always respected Sazerac and Buffalo Trace. They're pretty adamant about trying to catch those people that are abusing that retail markup in their retail stores. Right now, you're not just saying that so you get a better allocation of Pappy 48:31 damn right. I am. 48:34 Son and he's just got a sweet talk his son? Yeah. 48:38 I guess the devil's advocate to like pay to play what do you what would you say to like, you know, the mom and pop stores have been in business forever. And they can't compete on the pay to play just because they're in a smaller town or in a smaller market, but they still have customers they want to take care of and get, you know, some allocation and they've been getting them for years. And they were kind of you know, there before the 49:00 Before everything kind of happened, well, that that's just my counter argument to this. No, I agree. You know, because I've often thought and role played Hey, what if I went out on my complete own and opened up my own little mom and pop store? You know, I know at that point what I've done with the store we have now will Linda No. allocations are what I deserve to this new place. It's just one bottle at a time. That's what we did at our store. And I think that's what any mom and pop has the ability to do. You know, pick and choose your battles if you can't pick and choose every supplier that's out there. Go after if it says rack and Buffalo Trace will then really support those brands. And then yeah, you're going to get bottles at that point. You know, I think the other misconception is, there's more bottles that come into each market than we realize when you realize how many stores are going those bottles are going out too. So there's there's product available to then develop a customer base and develop 50:00 A relationship with some key customers. So I got a kind of a doozy of a question here. You mentioned a little bit a while ago talking about there might be like this favorite scheme that somebody that works a distributor, they have a certain store that they'll go and hook somebody up because they carry a well, whatever it is, and they can potentially slide into their store. How much do you think of allocated items go to things like I don't know, if you consider this something like insider trading, where say all of us here we get 25% of a pie. I know that I really want the new Booker's, whatever it's going to come out this year, but we'll just whatever it's going to be. And what I'm gonna do is I'm going to go to a store that I like, I'm going to say, Hey, I'm going to get you this bottle but this bottles mine. 50:50 You mean the the salesman or their manager coming in saying, hey, you're going to get this ball allocated to you, but you're going to sell it to me? Exactly. 51:00 happens all the time. See, that's the that's the crazy thing. It's like, people always talk about access and trying to make a free access to everything. And when you talk about even the I've seen it before with my own eyes, it happened with a with a victors bottle. I think it was a 20 or 25 year bourbon. And I know the store that ran through, and it was just kind of like, Oh, it was a favorite from distributor. And they just ran it to the store for somebody to go there and pick it up. Sir. They just had it laying around just for that. I mean it it kind of blows my mind that that there's this sort of like insider game that you can do, because you have access to all this stuff. And yeah, what how how fair is it that 51:47 you know, bourbon has, you know, a, you know, in order to get your allocation of a bourbon. How in the world is it fair to be 52:00 expected to carry a vodka or a low level gin? Or an unattractive tequila? It seems to me like that. That's, that's the most egregious thing of all happening right now is you're being forced to carry shit, you know, to get the good stuff. 52:19 Fred when you walk into our store, and you take your first step in and right to your left, you've got about 90 cases of vodka all into the price of 999 for a half gallon, or a 175. From Fleischmanns departments and school and platinum in summit, well Smirnoff a little higher Pinnacle, you name it, and that's why they're there. And yes, we sell a lot of it, don't get me wrong, but those are brands are there for a reason because there's other brands we could choose pop off and others, but hey, those are all part of a lot of those who are part of the soundtrack portfolio 52:58 to you 53:00 you're you're you're front loading your store, because you feel like it gives you a better chance for that allocation. Absolutely. 53:09 I agree it's horseshit. 53:11 To say that what if what if we all just kind of work together because this could be the way to end vodka if you think about it. 53:19 The only reason why stores are carrying vodka then let's just Yeah, the wagons and you know find a way to put bourbon there and when your vodka revolt 53:30 the biker rebellion, Fred 53:33 I this just 53:36 it just feels scammy to me it's always felt like 53:43 you know, very 1930s you know a mafioso kind of like we were saying, but how else are they supposed to dictate who gets what what is a better system? Better? I mean, if you think about it, why not just a free market system like okay, 54:00 This is what I want. Like, if people aren't buying x y&z like you shouldn't be has to be like forced to be able to carry those like that should. The thing is is nothing triple all the way back to the distiller where like they have to rethink their strategy or they have to rethink their go to market on a particular product because it's just sitting on the shelves. And if it's if you get to the point where it's not moving, then it comes all the way back to the producer. It's hard, it's tough, because in those categories, they're all commodities. They're, you know, they're, they're, 54:32 you know, base price like, and so they have to buy shelf space to compete to kind of get their product out there. It happens in cereal, it happens in groceries and in everything, you know, you buy shelf space to kind of get your product that it's this is how it is. That is true. When you walk into Barnes and Noble. Those books right there. Those are all purchased that space was purchased by the publisher. That's true. Yeah, and you know, and I I've heard stories, you know, with some of the chain accounts that 55:00 You know, hey, you want this in cap, it's $800 cash, you want this in cap, it's $400 cash, if you want, any of the back end caps is $200 cash. Again, that's never happened to me directly as a salesperson. 55:13 I will tell you that, you know, and these people are no longer there. When I was a salesperson. I often got asked when I would go in and pitch a deal, well, what's in it for me? And that's when I would walk away, and nothing against who I used to work for. But, you know, I had the dubious title of the lowest market share and what was the biggest grocery account in Nebraska? Every CL sales meeting, I had to hear about how I did that or had the lowest market share but I wasn't going to play that game of somebody else more company wanted to do that great Go for it. But you know, I was going to do it the right way. 55:47 But because I was new and scared, but I you know, again, I don't know the other answer to what you're saying. Fred is if you know how do you distribute it? They came to me and told me that 56:00 The liquor commission is standard rasca said those allocated items need to go to the people that support that portfolio. So will we I guess you have to define the portfolio. Does that include just the bourbon portfolio? It's as or accurate, does that include everything in it, if you will? I do know last year I'm sorry, in the end of 2017. 56:22 You had to buy eight cases of Southern Comfort to get a case of Blanton's. 56:27 Wow. And that's where I flipped out. And I said wait a second, you know, so, you know, it's it's, it's interesting, and it's odd. Again, I don't know that you can blame them again. I think this is all new to the wholesalers to this this crazy game we're in with with bourbon right now. And 56:48 you know, it's um, it's tough, but somebody at those disturbed those distillery somebody at those wholesalers needs to be burning the midnight oil and they're not doing that to figure out how 57:00 this all works and where these products are going and how they're being sold. Because the guy from SAS rack right to my face and the guy from Brown Forman that was in the store a couple weeks ago, flat out said they will not support these retailers that are gouging the public. So I'm hoping that assignment, you know, they're forcing the wholesalers hands to not necessarily just give whoever you know, is on the buddy list allocated items because then like like, we've just talked about how do you deal with these mom and pop stores that have been in business for 20 years, 30 years in Nebraska, that have stumbled onto the bourbon world as well you know, how do you not take care of them? 57:43 You know, it's that you bring up a good point to it should be noted that it is illegal. Federal code, you know, does not allow a distiller or supplier to dictate where, where their bottles go. So like 58:00 The best they can do is tell these distributors like we don't want this we don't want that they can't outright say don't go to Bob store because he's price gouging. But they can say something like, Hey, we don't want to see price gouging, you know, but there there there is some, there is some very particular laws that that the distiller must follow the distiller to the wholesaler. Yeah, yeah. So the distiller to the wholesaler like what they can say to dictate where things go. It's very, you know, if there's a paper trail there, you know, they always get caught, you see people get, you know, million dollar fines every other year from these, you know, from these larger wholesale companies, because they get entangled in into these like, messes and, and that the, the federal government does, like track wholesalers quite a bit closer, you know, then I think people realize, Oh, yeah, absolutely. They do it. 59:00 I completely agree with that. And I've heard it firsthand and actually seen it firsthand. 59:05 You know, an odd story when I right before I left to take this job at this liquor store, and then, you know, through the luck of success become an owner, 59:17 my boss at this particular wholesaler, you know, we got, you know, we started seeing things in our computer like, Oh, I didn't sell this account this many cases, what's going on here? I didn't think much of it just thought it was a computer glitch. And so we're all in a sales meeting. And we get asked to go down to this boardroom and there's a State Patrol. And it turns out that our, our boss and our division was taking things and billing them to accounts and and selling it out of his trunk. Oh, nice. Let me tell you what I that you want to talk about that, that moment where you start shaking, 59:56 you know, and then it becomes like 1:00:00 accounts that Wait a second, you know, Mr. salesman in Lincoln, Nebraska, how did you not know that this guy hasn't bought Jagermeister in five years? You know, where do you think he's been buying it from? And so it became quite interesting. And I'm thinking, you know, we're the ones that turned this guy in because we started seeing things on our computer. So yeah, I'm assuming there's plenty of ways to get in and around these rules for wholesalers. And again, Canada, you're one of the original points there is zero transparency. I can't ask the wholesaler Can you tell me how much Buffalo Trace antique came into the state? And when I can ask them how much birthday bourbon came into the state and what accounts Got it? All I know is I got one bottle. Yeah. So it is one good thing about the controlled states is that you can you know, because it's all tax related and public record. You can see exactly where all those bottles went in Pennsylvania, there's mysteriously five bottles that 1:01:00 disappear every year when they get their allocation to the county when they all go to state senators. Yeah. 1:01:08 So we've we've now established the fact that there is no map and it's just all kind of like just a crazy process. There's no process there's there's literally there's nothing I think we've established that at this point. But here's here's the funny thing that I always find. I mean, it doesn't matter you you ask any store owner in when it comes to fall release season and I'm sure that Mike you hear the same exact thing is and you're going to say it every single year to his allocations are down this year. It's I mean, literally, I've heard that same exact line for the past five years in a row how our allocations always down every single year. You know, I don't know that. I'm going to tell you I was very happy with my Pappy allocation this year, this past year in 2018. What was extremely upset about my Buffalo Trace antique collection, so I don't know if they decided to, to cut me on one and give me more. The other thing 1:02:00 That would keep me quiet and keep me happy if you will. 1:02:04 But yeah, I can tell you I got one bottle of birthday bourbon this year I've always gotten to and not that that's a lot, especially when I hear and see other markets and what they get. 1:02:14 And so I flat out asked the the brown Forman guy two weeks ago when he was in the store, you know, hey, I'd be glad to do a jack daniels barrel. Again, I'd be happy to do a Woodford Reserve and an old forester barrel at the store because I know we can sell him. Is that going to get me any more birthday bourbon, he flat out looked at me said no, because the state of Nebraska is only getting so much. You know, you know, then at that point, we have to make a decision, but at least he was honest. And he was he seemed to be pretty clear about you know, he doesn't really like I think Fred said he doesn't control where those bottles go once they come into the state of Nebraska, as far as what account gets them. Yep, absolutely. So to kind of wrap this up, you know, and this has been a fantastic conversation and you know, Mike, I really love the passion that you have here. You can tell that you 1:03:00 You've got a lot of a lot to talk about in this but you know, since you've gone from, I don't know one dark side to the other maybe you're seeing the light I don't know which which is the better end here. But now that you're on the other end how's your view changed to be now dealing with the people that you once worth of a salesperson 1:03:21 you know, somebody sent me a I don't know what you call them a GIF or whatever those things are 1:03:27 a Forrest Gump running You know, when in a movie when he takes off down the lane and it's out on the road and takes off. And I literally said, that's me at the end of the month when I see the sales people come in. 1:03:39 They all got some deal, that's the best that's ever been and, you know, and and but again, my perception is I've learned how to control it and learn how to understand it. And you know, with all this innovation from all these different flavors, you know, 1:03:55 that there's only so much real estate in a store and even the big stores, you know, 1:04:00 There's only so much they can put down and carry on their shelves before they run out of room. And so something has to give. So I just kind of look at basically what's the value for that particular product that comes in into one of Fred's points earlier, I kind of look for those craft distilleries. I'm just looking for a variety of whiskey that I think tastes good. I don't want to sell something to you or anybody else that you're going to take home and whether you pay $30 or $100, and be like, Oh my gosh, I've had Buffalo Trace. And this is horrible compared to that. 1:04:35 It's a shame that you have to do your own research as a store owner, because these craft distilleries are paying these distributors to push their brands for them. And that you know, they're not you as a store owner going out of your way to get those people involved in a chance on the dance. 1:04:51 And it just sucks because like, what is the point of a distributor for a brand that's, you know, a craft brand because it's just a pastor and it doesn't 1:05:00 Seemed like they're doing a service for them. And also, would you like to iterate what they're usually costing on top of of the cost? What do you mean? Well, Ryan, we mean we go we know what how many points that distributors take on top of it. You want to kind of talk about that? Yeah. And it's, you know, you're paying, you know, for us to do distribution here, we're paying 25% margin, not 25% markup, so it's 25% margin on the fob costs that we're sending to them. And then on top of that, the retailer's taking 25% margin. On top of that, we go through all this hard work to go pick the whiskies decide throne, go through all the risks, the legal stuff, all the taxes, all this stuff, and the end user is getting the most margin, and the distributors are two versus the end. So as a craft brand, you know, we're like, well, what's the point? You know, so, what is the point? 1:05:54 That's why I just right. 1:05:57 But you know what, that's th

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Quick show notes Our Guest: Daniel Olson What he'd like for you to see/remember: Use the term "static" sparingly | Join in the community and share problems, solutions, etc. His JAMstack Jams: Wordpress (headless and/or as a static site generator) | Netlify's build process/hooks His Musical Jam: Poolside.fm Our sponsor this week: TakeShape Transcript Bryan Robinson 0:02 Hello, everyone, welcome to yet another episode of That's My JAMstack. I'm your host Bryan Robinson and this will be the last regular episode of the year will be back to official episodes of The New Year. But we'll be tiding you over with a special holiday slate of episodes where various guests from this past year will be talking about their thoughts on the JAMstack in 2020. Bryan Robinson 0:20 This week, though, we have the COO of a company called DigitalCube. He's a self taught web developer and a JAMstack enthusiast I'm very pleased to have on the show Daniel Olson. Bryan Robinson 0:29 I'm also pleased to have back this week our sponsor TakeShape. You can hear more about their content platform after the episode or head over to takeshape.io/thatsmyjamstack for more information. Bryan Robinson 0:44 Daniel, thanks for being on the show with us today. Daniel Olson 0:46 It's a pleasure. Bryan Robinson 0:47 So tell us a little about yourself. What do you do for work? What do you do for fun, that sort of thing. Daniel Olson 0:52 I'm the Chief Operating Officer at DigitalCube. I get to work on all the products we develop and travel a bit sharing some of the work that we do. One of those products I work on is called Shifter. It's a static site generator for WordPress and some might say it's a serverless hosting platform. Another product I get to work on is called Animoto. It's a managed WordPress hosting solution built for enterprise. We're only limits the options that AWS can offer us, which is a lot. But my my role is a bit of a variety show. Like many companies and the growing JAMstack community, we wear many hats. Most days I work on MVPs and do feature development. And the way I like to do that is through customer feedback. So my kind of my main jam is finding gaps where our products don't like cover and then building solutions with the designers and engineers around that. Bryan Robinson 1:44 Cool so what do you do outside of work? What's your favorite thing to do when you're when you're off? Daniel Olson 1:48 What do I do? Also a bit of a variety show. I'm in the kitchen a lot. I make a lot of food. I like to dine out and like You know, try different foods. I'm also a big beer guy, I run like a beer website on the side. And that's kind of my life is around like, you know, enjoying tastes. So if there's something to like something new to try, like if when I when I travel a lot, my co workers like to like push the boundaries a little bit, and they'll try to get me to eat like strange things, but it never really works out because I always enjoy it. Bryan Robinson 2:25 So what's your favorite cuisine that that you've tried? Daniel Olson 2:31 Maybe I don't hate me. Maybe some of vegetarian listeners might be upset. But I did go to when I was in Japan with my co workers after a meetup. Someone asked me if I liked sashimi, which Yes, I love sashimi. But we were in Fukuoka, which I didn't realize that sashimi me has lots of different meanings. And I've learned that in Fukuoka, sashimi could mean raw horse meat. Which is pretty, like common in Japan and in certain regions. So, I mean, you know, I'm game if everyone says it's good, I'll give it a try. And I was very impressed. I learned a ton about this, like, you know, like food category I never really knew anything about or I thought I knew about. But I would go back like in a heartbeat. I would love to do that again. Bryan Robinson 3:22 Interesting. Interesting that that surprised me. You caught me off guard with that one. Daniel Olson 3:26 Yeah, and you can eat all of it. There's certain there's certain pieces or certain cuts that must be grilled. And some of them you can or you don't have to so like they basically bring out like a like a grill. And you can use chopsticks and you just give it like a little bit of heat. For some of the pieces, some of the sausages you have to cook thoroughly. But most of it you can eat with you know, Ginger or rice or like pickled vegetables. It's it's a I think it's a good experience. If you're, if you have the opportunity, I recommend it. Bryan Robinson 3:59 Interesting. Cool. So obviously not not a food podcast, more of a more of a tech podcast here. So let's, let's talk about your, your enjoyment of static sites or the JAMstack, what was your entry point into this kind of philosophy of building sites? Daniel Olson 4:13 It's kind of a funny story. Um, my introduction to static sites was at, I worked at a branding agency for a number of years, and we're pretty small team, one of the other developers I worked with, he was, you know, kind of more familiar with the static sites and the services generators out there. And he told me about them and you know, we are WordPress shop. So thinking about, you know, the value or, you know, what the clients would need. It was always really difficult for me to, you know, jump ship and recommend that to our clients because at the end of the day, they're the ones who have to live with these sites and edit them and, you know, help like grow them. Daniel Olson 4:53 So, you know, writing markdown using like, a non familiar CMS backend other than WordPress. was kind of a hard sell. But we it still was in the back of my mind. But when I went to a conference in Philadelphia, where I'm from, and I met this group of, you know, Japanese developers, and they were working on this interesting product, and they introduced it to me as a "Third Wave". They're like, this is this is going to be the future. And they kept trying to explain it to me, I didn't quite get it. And I didn't actually really understand it until like a year after. But what they were trying to do is to bring some of the approaches that status like static site generators were doing to the WordPress community and like bridging that gap. And it didn't click at first and it really made no sense to me because it was explained as the third wave, but, but it makes total sense in hindsight now. Daniel Olson 5:52 So that was that was my first introduction. It was like I was kind of like I fell into it. But I also was like, living amongst it for For years not really paying attention to it, Bryan Robinson 6:02 So with with that what they were doing was that before WordPress had the API stuff was that before you could go headless with WordPress, or is that they were doing their own thing around that. Daniel Olson 6:12 It was it was kind of alongside so there was these, you know, two communities within the WordPress ecosystem at that time. And it was people who are developing, you know, they're like power users are using plugins to do things. They're doing theme development. And then there's this other track where, you know, they're a group of developers are really trying to push the boundaries of what WordPress can do just as a blogging tool like they're using it as a full featured CMS. And that was when headless really kind of took off the REST API was getting a lot of attention. Daniel Olson 6:41 Some of these other projects, and even plugins, were using the REST API, but it's I think, I call them that like their technology magic tricks, like, yes, it works. And then like you build a little demo, and then let's see how far we can take this magic trick and like you build out these incredibly large sites using WordPress. Completely headless. But it's really just, you know, an extension of that first demo, like, are you doing anything different? It's just the implementation. Daniel Olson 7:08 But when I learned about the the project that these guys were working on, it was totally different. It was kind of a mix between the two. Yes, we want to give users the same experience that they're familiar with in the back end. But we also want to deliver the benefits that these other ideas can offer, like the benefits that jam stack has, or the benefits that headless has. So it was like kind of a cross between the two. But it was the WordPress REST API that actually enabled it. Bryan Robinson 7:40 True. Yeah. Cool. So would it be fair to say that kind of this idea of WordPress headless is where is where you kind of got into everything? Daniel Olson 7:49 Yeah, yeah. And it was, um, you know, we, at the agency I worked at we built a lot of just, you know, demo sites and like little product sites for clients and it at the time, it was like a total experiment you couldn't even do it natively in WordPress, it was an extension like you had to install a plugin to enable the REST API. It was that early. And now it's a part of core and we talked about it. It's, you know, this ubiquitous thing that, you know, everyone's familiar with it if you're in this community, but at the time, it was like, What is REST? What does that mean? And yeah, so it's, you know, I'm, it feels good to be a part of something that I've got to see grow over time. Bryan Robinson 8:30 Cool. And so so I'm kind of curious about about headless WordPress. I've only I've done magic tricks with it. That's about as far as I've gone into that world for, for WordPress in the JAMstack. What are some, some challenges y'all have been overcoming? What are some, some things for people to kind of be aware of if they start playing with this idea? Daniel Olson 8:48 So headless WordPress is I would consider that it's its own category. And the work that I do in the kind of the world that I live in, within like the development community, there's it's really three distinct categories. So you have like traditional WordPress, which is what, you know, people are familiar with that. And then you have headless WordPress which is decoupled. You're building your JAMstack site and using WordPress as your CMS or back end. And then you have static WordPress, which is kind of the in between. So we're using WordPress as a static site generator. So it's that's like its own special category. You're, you're not converting or building a new site using WordPress as your back end. You're using WordPress itself and generating the static site from that. That site itself, it's not there's no Developer Tools involved. It's just native WordPress. Bryan Robinson 9:46 Oh, interesting. So instead of like a cash, you're and then you're building in your build step from the actual WordPress files on a Linux server. Daniel Olson 9:54 Yeah, so it's actually the way that we do it is the the approach is service. So the end result the way that it's delivered. And the product itself is built as service. So we were using AWS lambda. So we're an AWS advanced technology partner. So about 50% of our team are just AWS engineers who have a deep understanding of those technologies and the infrastructure. And then about the other half are WordPress developers. So we work really tightly together to develop solutions that take advantage of what AWS has to offer, and kind of leverage all these capabilities for WordPress. It's not, there's like there's two ways to do WordPress in AWS, you run WordPress, just as a layer on top, and it's just there. And then or you could actually kind of integrate it into the services and just get a lot more of opportunity, a lot more power out of it. But the way that we're doing it is we use the WordPress REST API, which like I said, it was basically that was the catalyst that made this possible. Daniel Olson 10:59 The WordPress REST API the way that we use it, we use that to get to get a list of links from the WordPress site. So we we can, like at a quick glance, see every page that exists by hitting a certain REST API path. And then we pass that to AWS lambda, which then queues up a list of URLs to crawl. And then it crawls each URL seems it to an s3 bucket. And that gets served with CloudFront. So at the very basic level, that's kind of how it works. Bryan Robinson 11:29 Very interesting. And so you're, you're you're still using like WordPress, his own templates and all that, right. Daniel Olson 11:35 Yeah. So if you want to use the themes, same themes and plugins, you are free to use those as long as they there's certain exceptions like contact form plugins, they naturally in the WordPress world, they want to post data back to the WordPress database, which, at that point in time, doesn't exist because you've now created a static site and WordPress is no longer in the picture but There are some like opportunities and shims that exist. One of the I developed a couple of plugins that will swap out like action URLs within forums to send those to third parties, whether it's, you know, jam stack friendly, like forums as a service sites like a forum spree or form kit, or basin or even that with five forms. Bryan Robinson 12:22 Interesting. So I want one things I've always wondered about headless, headless WordPress is the idea that if you're using WordPress headless, and you're doing it like with your own static site generator on the side, you're really getting like 25%, maybe 30% of benefit of WordPress, that sounds like y'all are closer to like, 75 or 80% of all the benefits of WordPress, because I was I was always like, why would you ever use headless WordPress if you're only getting a small portion of the benefit of it? Daniel Olson 12:46 Yeah, and I see that too. And having like, really, like dived into the JAMstack ecosystem, seeing the tools that are out there, it's still growing. There's still a lot of rooms who for it to mature, and they're like things like gaspee the plugin ecosystem is like booming, there's, you know, there's a lot of stuff out there. But there's still more stuff in the WordPress world. So I get why people still want to use it like the theme themes are one thing, but also plugins, like having the opportunity to just search the plugin directory of the 50,000 plus plugins that exist, there's going to be some solution in there for whatever problem you need. And most of the time, it will work in that scenario, like even as a headless option. If it's a popular plugin, they probably have developed REST, like paths for it, to interact with it in a headless manner. Bryan Robinson 13:39 Yeah, but even then, like if you're if you're interacting with it in the headless manner, you then have to build that functionality into your templates unless you're using WordPress as its own static site generator at that point. Daniel Olson 13:48 Yeah, and in that case, you just use it natively, how you want to, you know, experience it naturally in the WordPress world. And then you just click a button and then we crawl your site generate a static version. And then power down WordPress. Bryan Robinson 14:02 Awesome. So So it'd be fair to say that headless WordPress is kind of your jam in the JAMstack, or do you have any other like products or tools, services philosophies that you're really digging right now. Daniel Olson 14:14 Um, I was introduced to. It's kind of funny. It's like, it's a feature that we developed. But I didn't really get much use out of it personally, until a customer had a very unique request. And it was the integration between our product and Netlify web hooks. And I started to use Netlify web hooks, just so you can basically build your static WordPress site on Shifter and you can deploy it to Netlify so if there's like, you know, I want to use Netlify Forms, I want to use Netlify analytics, I want to use the basic auth or I have another application and I want to keep all of my sites in one place. You can do that. Daniel Olson 14:57 But one of the things that I didn't really dive into was there build tools. So when when you do the web hooks, and you can customize the Netlify Builds you can get like really granular with all the different things that happen during your build runtime. And I like I don't know why I just never really got into that. But I, one day, I just kind of spent all day reading about it and, you know, learning about it and testing it. And I was like, blown away by all the options that they have in there. It's kind of it's a, it's a hidden gem. Like I recommend spending a little time reading about it. Bryan Robinson 15:28 Well, I'm nowadays they even have the ability to plug into into the build process. They have variables, you can set up to do a whole bunch of stuff that they're testing out. Right now it's in beta. Daniel Olson 15:40 Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a lot of amazing like fun stuff that's going on. And also the forms and the way the analytics work. It's like It's like analytics is such a difficult thing for a lot of web developers because of ad blockers and like proxies and networks. But if you're running your analytics like Netlify does based on Like the server stats itself, like you, like you're making a connection to this site, whether you blocked an ad script or not, that analytics reporting tool is still going to measure all that data. It's not going to give you like, as much as something like a google analytics that you're allowing to track you. But it's still a valuable tool for developers and even like, you know, if to run your business like what's going on in my application, you can cost optimize and and see what's really happening Bryan Robinson 16:29 And doesn't affect front end performance. Which is great, too. Daniel Olson 16:32 Yeah, it's something that happens naturally, that data is logged anyway for the server itself. So you know, just providing access to it is it's crazy like it's they're providing access to it. It now has become a product. Bryan Robinson 16:45 Yep. Oh, yeah. Gotta find ways to monetize and keep the keep the doors open. I want Netlify around for a long time. Daniel Olson 16:52 Yeah. And keep keep your customers happy. Bryan Robinson 16:55 Exactly. Cool. So So what's going to keep you in the JAMstack? Obviously you It's important you right now, which is great, but like, what's the core philosophy that you're gonna dig into in the next couple years? Daniel Olson 17:06 I am a, my, my core philosophy is the rule of least power. I think that a lot of times we, you know, hit solutions with the hammer instead of like, figuring out a different approach, like every problem is a nail. Like the, the idea of applying JAMstack has, like an approach is really appealing to me because it focuses on something that I also really appreciate. And that's design thinking. So rather than just applying a solution, or you know, throwing more power at something, or making it like overly complicated jumps that can can be quite elegant, because it's using only things that you need. Daniel Olson 17:48 So as opposed to what you know, like WordPress is traditionally a monolith. It comes with a lot of things that you don't necessarily need or may ever use. But JAMstack is like, All right, I'm building this site, I need comments. Just add the comments you need. I need ecommerce right now I'm just going to add ecommerce, but you don't need other features. They don't exist you didn't build them. And that's what I love about the the JAMstack community is it gives us the opportunity to pick and choose and kind of build exactly what we need. Bryan Robinson 18:22 I actually the rule of least power is one of my guiding principles actually wrote a blog post about a year ago on it. One of my favorite things that came out the development of HTML and, and and the web. Daniel Olson 18:34 Yeah, and like I always kind of,I always get stuck like whenever there's a new app or new tool out there, like Yeah, but like this thing does it but also there's no UI for it and it runs faster. And I like I'm just kind of geeking out over that stuff like a Hyper, like Wes Bos on JavaScript courses he uses Hyper a lot. And like, I love looking at it. Hyper is like a beautiful terminal. But also it runs JavaScript and like it kind of takes a lot longer to open then just like my terminal with nothing in it. So that's like, those are my daily struggles. Bryan Robinson 19:13 The new cool versus what's the most efficient for you? Daniel Olson 19:16 Yeah, don't go overboard. Just use what you need and get the job done. It's also I think it's good for me because I work with a lot of customers to on their servers. And like, if you're logging into a server, you don't have the luxuries of your like your customized bash scripts. And these, you know, like pretty UI is like you just have to know what you're doing. And like just kind of using the basic tools to get the job done is has really paid off for me. It's it's taught me a lot. Bryan Robinson 19:46 Having the same tools that everywhere definitely makes it easier when things go wrong in the non fancy places. Daniel Olson 19:51 Yeah, I sometimes I think of it as like a little form of torture for myself just because I'm not giving myself like an advantage but it's it pays off in the long run Bryan Robinson 20:01 definitely alright so so let's let's talk music what's your actual jam right now what what musician or song or type of music Are you really into right now? Daniel Olson 20:11 My my musical tastes vary throughout the day some days I wake up listening to like Wilco on all my Alexa devices just blasting throughout the house. And then maybe by lunch I'll be listening to like little Wayne's the Carter three and I'll just have like genius up like the website genius and just I'm picking apart all the rap lyrics. Um, but yeah, like I I, the thing that I really enjoy right now is and it's the perfect background noise for me. It's this thing called poolside FM. And there's a website for I think it's just poolside.fm but it's a it's a website that kind of looks super 80s and it plays music videos and also music along with it, but the music videos are like clips like old VHS random clips almost like everything is terrible. But I don't know it's just like the perfect background noise when you're like coding or just need something on while you're cleaning the house. And I've they never show like the what's playing are actually I listened to it on my Alexa but they never show it's playing so I'm always like asking my phone like, What song is this Bryan Robinson 21:22 as a little mystery to your life? Yeah. Cool. So is there anything that you would like to promote that you're doing right now that you want to get out in the world? Daniel Olson 21:31 Um, actually, I want to give a shout out to to Phil Hawksworth from Netlify about I want to like throw back to one of your previous episodes and something he said that it's it's funny when I listened to the episode I I've said the same thing in a couple talks and it just resonated with me so I want to call it out again. Daniel Olson 21:52 He he said something he's very careful about using the phrase static sites and I totally agree with that. And the reason that I agree with that is one of my favorite sites jamstack.org, which is kind of like a manifesto for me. It's like we are the JAMstack party. This is what we believe. But the most important part of that website is what it actually does not mention, it doesn't mention any specific frameworks. It completely focuses on best practices. And if you search the site, for the word static, it only appears once. And it says, I'm pretty sure it says probably static. Daniel Olson 22:33 So it's like kind of like, you know, going back to it. This is not, we're not purists. This is an approach. It's a philosophy. And then it's a way to build something better. But yeah, that's kind of that's a that's I just wanted to mention that But yeah, I don't really, I don't really have anything to promote, like we we have, we're in the WordPress community. But we're kind of like we straddle those two things like WordPress and jam stack but I just think that, uh, the WordPress community and also the jam stack community has a lot to learn from each other. I think that Jeff slack.org is a good place to start. I think that really focusing on the approach rather than the tools is something that is really important that that you should do, and that you can learn a lot from. And also just talk to other developers see what they got going on and see what problems they have to solve. Maybe you can help them maybe your experience is valuable. Bryan Robinson 23:26 And we all kind of have different problems. And we find the right solutions for them no matter what the stack is. Daniel Olson 23:32 Yeah, yeah, in in the WordPress world, like I've I've developed plugins, and some of the plugins that I've developed. I tried to build them so that they work in both environments, whether you know, you're running on Shifter, and we create a static site from that from that site for using WordPress. But you can also build that plugin so that it can work natively in a native WordPress and like hosting environment. And I've learned that building Something that applies to both types of like hosting platforms, it actually just makes it more performance overall. And like, you don't need to, it doesn't need to be static, but the way that you've built it, it could be static. And the end result is just more performance. So why not build it this way? anyway?. Bryan Robinson 24:19 Well, I appreciate you taking the time out of your day to talk with us. And I hope you keep doing some amazing stuff on the jam stuff. Daniel Olson 24:25 Thank you for having me. Looking forward to it. Bryan Robinson 24:30 All right, it's sponsored time, I want to talk today about a specific feature in TakeShape, which is our sponsor, for this episode. And that's the API Explorer. Inside your TakeShape dashboard, you'll find the Explorer and it's a really great tool for a GraphQL novice like myself, but it also has lots of great features built in, like some autocomplete and built in documentation. It makes it really incredibly easy to find all the pieces of data that you want to include in a GraphQL query, and then it's going to build that query for you. It's a simple copy and paste away from your static site generator. So makes it really, really easy to interact with, TakeShape's API. They have a lot of other great functionality as well, you should definitely go and check them out. And you can do that by hitting up takeshape.io/thatsmyjamstack. Bryan Robinson 25:21 I also want to thank our guests, Daniel again, and thank all the amazing listeners in the JAMstack community. Remember, if you're enjoying this podcast, give it a star a heart an upvote or review in your podcast app of choice to help new folks find their way to listening in and with that, we're gonna see you in the new year but I hope you keep doing amazing things in the JAMstack.Transcribed by https://otter.aiIntro/outtro music by bensound.comSupport That's my JAMstack by donating to their Tip Jar: https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/thats-my-jamstack

Jennie Nash, CEO and founder of Author Accelerator, talks about her program for training book coaches to help writers write books worth reading. Kevin and Jennie discuss coaching, as well as Jennie’s new book, Read Books All Day and Get Paid For It: The Business of Book Coaching.TRANSCRIPT AVAILABLELINKS:Website:: jennienash.com, authoraccelerator.comAmazon Author Page:: https://www.amazon.com/Jennie-Nash/e/B001HD414ATwitter Handle:: @jennienashFacebook Page:: @jennienashHow can people join your mailing list?:https://author-accelerator.ck.page/5d4425a182Giveaways, promotions, or special offers:A free week of programming on book coaching starting January 20 https://www.authoraccelerator.com/summitTHIS EPISODE OFTHE WORDSLINGER PODCASTIS SPONSORED BY:DRAFT2DIGITAL: Convert, publish, and distribute your book worldwide, with support the whole way. https://draft2digital.com/wordslingerACORNS: Start an Acorns account today and get FREE MONEY! kevintumlinson.com/acornsTRANSCRIPT:Jennie Nash - Wordslinger PodcastSUMMARY KEYWORDSbook, people, author, helping, writers, coaches, money, offering, writing, pay, calls, accelerator, coaching, business, marketing, viable, expertise, service, ideal reader, agentSPEAKERSJennie Nash, Kevin TumlinsonKevin Tumlinson 00:02Hey, everybody, thanks for tuning in. Now I, here's what's interesting about what I do. I travel, I go to all kinds of conferences all over the world. And I meet some some pretty incredible people, and in particular, I meet a lot of folks who work in some aspect of this industry. And that is what happened with today's guest. I'm talking to Jenny Nash. There's a lot of ways that Jenny and I are connected. But one of the first ways we met was at San Francisco writers conference about two, three years ago. I think. I'm not even sure at this point.Jennie Nash 00:37Yeah, that's right.Kevin Tumlinson 00:38Now, okay, just the official stuff, Jenny, I'll throw it in there. Jenny Nash is the founder and CEO of author accelerator, a company on a mission to train book coaches to help writers write books worth reading. And we're going to be talking to her about that and about her new book, read books all day and get paid for it, the business of book coaching. I'm looking forward to Ironically, we discussed this just before the show, but I've got like back to back, our author consultations all day today. So this is an ironic topic for me to tell people how to make money doing it, that's where I need to start upping my game. like I always do a lot of these for free. So I need to start making some cash on this stuff.Jennie Nash 01:21Oh, let's talk about that. Should we jump right into it?Kevin Tumlinson 01:23Let's jump right in. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you for being a part of the word slinger podcast. So yes, let's jump right in. And how does somebody make money reading books all day?Jennie Nash 01:32So I want to talk about the money because I've been a book coach now for about 10 years. And I make multiple six figures as a book coach, and we at author accelerator. We recently did a poll of about 180 people who do this type of work, and I turned out to be one of the top paid people and that's great for me, but what was horrifying was The number of people who are not making very much money at it and the more that you dug into it, the number of people who give their work away for free and here I am talking to such a person.Kevin Tumlinson 02:11I don't give it all away for free, let's just make that clear. But I am obsessed with helping authors succeed and so that sometimes Trumps me charging them for it. I think so.Jennie Nash 02:22Okay, so here's the thing. I'm obsessed with that too. And, and it is such a noble and good thing to be obsessed with because, as you well know, the publishing industry is super fast changing all the time things it's pretty chaotic things come, you know, companies come they go trends come and go. There's, you know, self publishing wasn't even a thing. Basically, when I when I started coaching like it, it everything changes so fast. And that combined with this pervasive myth that writers don't make money writers don't have money to spend to help them. or invest in their careers, this whole starving artist thing this whole, you know, oh, we all just do this for love thing. And it makes me crazy because so many of the myths that I just spun off are not true writers, a lot of writers do make money a lot of publishers and publishing companies and people that are helping writers do make money. It's a big industry of infinite and people were making money it would not, it would not be so right. So I am, I am kind of on a mission to to change this and to help people who help authors with their writing to help coaches, raise the bar, be more professional, ask for what you're worth realize the value of what you're giving. So I want to talk about this all day long.Kevin Tumlinson 03:49Well, you're in luck. We can talk about it for at least 30 minutes. Yeah, no, I, I understand I you know, that's the thing and then the sector of authors I tend to deal with Our incoming. So how do you build a profile? I don't want you to give away the story here. But, you know, how would someone like me who deals with a lot of incoming authors who don't typically have any money? They're not making any money from the books yet. They may have a book yet, right? I'm like where's the starting point of that my my trouble with so I did author coaching for quite a while and charge people money for but I never really managed to make it a viable business because I maybe I was overcharging maybe I was under serving I don't know. So I never, it never took off as a business for me. Now I do it as part of kind of other things.Jennie Nash 04:41Right. Right. So I mean, the way that I like to think about it is is this, the, there's this idea with writers that this sort of lottery idea, like I'm gonna roll the dice, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna get picked and I'm going to get picked either by a publisher, an agent and a publisher, I'm going to get picked by readership out in the universe. And the thing behind that is, is that and then I'll leave my day job, right? And then all I'll get a movie deal with Reese Witherspoon and and then you know, like whatever the thing is that that the get picked mentality. And that mentality is so pervasive that writers think that that, you know, I'm just rolling the dice and and it's like they're holding their breath. They're not thinking of their own book and their own career as a viable business. And part of what I do is to help people change that mindset, like what other industry and what other industry which you bring a product into the world and that product could be anything. It could be a podcast, it could be a service industry, it could be, you know, you're growing firms to sell to people for their Fern gardens. I don't know where that came from, but you No, like whatever business nobody starts a business, thinking, I'm just going to get picked and, and like look out of the despair of my day to day job by by selling this thing to people people don't think like that. But with books, they think like that. So part of the mindset is shift is helping them think, okay, like the one of the first questions that I asked him out there is what is your goal with this book? And if their goal with this book is I want to write something to leave a legacy for my kids. And, you know, I don't care if it sells, I don't care if it gets read beyond that. That person's not going to probably make any money off of their work. Right. But if they most people are not going to say that, by the way, if they say, Well, my goal is, you know, if you really can have an honest conversation with them, they're going to state a goal that has something to do with selling books. And so what I talked to them about is then what do you need to invest in? In order to make that come true in order to have a viable business model? What skills do you need? What support do you need? You know, the business that you're in? One of the businesses you're in isn't helping people actually produce their book, you can actually produce a book and not invest money in that in that production. production costs. So the same should be true with writing the book, how are you going to learn how to write a book? How are you going to get the support, you need to do it? How are you going to decide which publishing path to go on? All of those things are investments in that outcome that they're trying to see? Right? And get people to start thinking about their outcome, then you can start talking about the value that you might add to their process. And then that means you have to be really clear about what value you're adding and what you're actually doing for them. Yeah,Kevin Tumlinson 07:56yeah, yeah. I agree. I agree. One of the one of the things that always nails me is I have all my little excuses lined up and then somebody comes along and pulls that peg and I can't use any of them.Jennie Nash 08:15That's me.Kevin Tumlinson 08:16That's exactly what that's supposed to be right. So what is that what author accelerator is about? Like, tell me about author accelerator?Jennie Nash 08:26Yes. So I have been training book coaches, I've trained more than 50 book coaches. certifying them and part of that process is teaching them how to manage a Writers Project with a project being the book, how to help that writer, raise the bar of that writer, raise their their own writing standards and skills, make a good publishing choice. The author accelerator is all about the development process. So once you get to the point where you're going to produce the book, you Have to go to somebody like draft to digital or some other person that's going to or entity that's going to help you produce the book. We don't do that. But we help people all the way up to that moment. And so I'm training book coaches, to guide writers and to help writers think about how they're going to make money from their book, if they're going to make money for their book, you know, a huge part of what we do is burst people's bubbles. That if how hard it is to make money at a book, you've got to know that in advance and why you're doing it again, back to the goal of that writer and the goal of that book and, and really making a plan for it. And so I'm helping the coaches help the writers think through that process and think through what they're doing. And we're we do that work in the context of helping them with the writing of the book. I I am Market focus by market focus, it's like, okay, who else is writing a book like you for a book, and it's going to be a book of essays. And it's going to be a book of essays about all the bad boyfriends I've ever had. And there have been 23 of them. So there's gonna be 23 chapters about all the bad boyfriends I've ever had. And I'm going to write these essays about that. The first thing I'm going to say is, are you aware that for an unpublished writer with with no platform to bring out a book of essays is The hardest possible thing in the world to sell. That's the first thing that I would say, right? And they would then then they always come back to me and say something like, but Tina Fey did it, or David Sedaris did it. And it's like, well, Yes, that's correct. But let's look at the hurdles that you might have getting to the marketplace with this book. I'm not trying to get them to write something different. I'm not trying to shoot down their dream, I'm trying to be realistic about it. And, and if they say to me, okay, what how can I ship this so that it might be viable for the marketplace, then we might talk about their structure, we might go look at audiences who are buying books like that we might try to find a way to bring that content to life in such a way that it is viable. So that's what I mean by being market focused. And if I'm going to do that, I I've been in the publishing industry for more than 30 years, I've helped a lot of people come to market. I've seen a lot of books, I'm going to charge for my expertise and my time, I'm not going to help that person out of the goodness of my heart, which sounds super cold and calculating now that I'm going to help that person if they're serious about reaching the marketplace, they're going to have to pay me to get my expertise.Kevin Tumlinson 12:21Yeah. And I and again, to draw on your earlier examples. I mean, this is not an unreasonable ask, when it comes to any other business is just for some reason, when it comes to businesses tied to people's dreams. Then all of a sudden, we are cold, heartless, capitalists.Jennie Nash 12:42Right. And that's the thing that makes me crazy. And I mean, the other thing it makes me crazy is there are a lot of people out there who are preying on authors, dreams and desires. It's easy to do because you tell an author, I can I can help you publish this book. I am We could do it in 90 days, you could be a best seller on Amazon. And they are all like, here's my money. Right? Well, you know, guess what, I just published a book, my own self. And I put it on Amazon and I literally did nothing, literally nothing other than hit the button. And it came up as the number one new release best seller in whatever category literally not one book sale. And I am I got that little Amazon bestseller flag and the people who are are selling that, like, we have a strategy for your book becoming a best seller on release day and we'll help you with this strategy. And we'll put you through these paces and people pay money for that because they don't know any better. And that makes me crazy, too. So Yeah, same here. There's people that prey on authors desires and dreams and, and I don't think it's right and fair. And so a lot of what I'm trying to do is tell them the truth. This is going to be long. It's going to be hard. And guess what? You're going to have to pay money. Let's talk about what you're going to have to pay to bring this book into the world. And do you want to do that? Right? Yeah.Kevin Tumlinson 14:11It's interesting, because I talked to people about this, this concept all the time in these coaching sessions, by the way, the very same ideas, because there is a hesitation among authors to do things like market themselves. Right? And, you know, it's the exact same idea. You know, I've, I wish I could remember the exact quote, I had a guest on the show, several years, a few years ago now, who said that if you are building something that can help people, then it is your responsibility to to market it and in this case, to charge for the service? Like that's part of the responsibility because that's how you continue to keep being able to offer that. Right.Jennie Nash 14:57Exactly. And, you know, you mentioned other things Jeez, like if I I mean, here's a perfect example. I'm in my car brand new, by the way, three days old. My car was hit the other day somebody backed into the rumor. I was at a standstill back to the road sucks. So hard. So what do I do? I call my insurance. I get a tow truck. The tow truck guy drives into place. Do I have to pay the tow truck guy? Yes. Because he's, he's saving my bacon from it was raining the cars in the middle of the intersection. So of course, I'm going to pay the tow truck guy. And you know, then we take it to the body shop. You know, it's going to be $4,000 to fix the thing. Like all of those. Those things are things that I need. They're solving a pain point of mine and you don't question for three seconds that you're going to pay that fee because it's you have this point of pain. I can't drive my car. My car's been So we pay when we have points of pain and writers have points of pain, they don't know things, you know things you've been in this you're inside this industry, you know exactly how it works, you hone your skills and your expertise, they come to you the reason you're having these calls is because they need your expertise and they have a pain they want to solve. And so that's how I start trying to talk to my coaches is what particular pain Are you trying to help this writer solve? Is it is it deciding on a publishing path? Is it making decisions about your investment towards that is it that the writing is not strong enough and needs to get better? Is it that you're getting rejected all the time out in the marketplace? And you don't know why is it that your covers bad, you know, there's a lot of pain points along the path and if somebody is helping a writer solve those, the that Pain. They're adding value and should be paid for it just like the total.Kevin Tumlinson 17:04No, no, you're you're right, I think is a kind of a supply and demand kind of thing. You know, you can, it's easier to charge someone when they're kind of over a barrel on that tow truck driver, you need this vehicle towed. Now we both know you're going to pay me a little differentJennie Nash 17:22thing. That's what's interesting is one of the things that I guide people to do is to choose what pain point they're going to specialize in as a coach, where are they going to help people and, and how are they going to frame that help? Because the writers are going to actually feel the same way as I did with my broken car. You know, if the writers got a book that they're dying to get into the world, they're going to feel that same pain and, you know, we talked at the beginning about how confusing this industry is, if you're outside of it, you know, how do you know what to do? How do you how do you know what to pay? How You know, there's a lot of confusion. So you didn't ask, but if you were to ask me how to convert these calls into paying into paying customers, I would think of these consultation calls as, okay, you're helping them for 30 minutes or an hour or whatever you're offering them and help them with some of their questions. I would think of them as consultation calls to a service. So it's like, this is the way that I could help you. This is how the decision that is in front of you, I'm seeing that you have these choices, and I can help you walk you through those choices and make a good choice. And then I can help you, whatever the next step of the process is. And if you're interested in that, I have a service that we could talk about, you're signing up for. It would be you can still help people out of the goodness of your heart. I do that all day long as well. But, you know, like, the other day, I was talking to a woman Who writes a column for Forbes? magazine, and she wants to write a book. It's her second book. And she she was trying to make a decision about agent or not agent on this on the second book and, and I got on the phone with her and, and had an hour long conversation, I was sending her links I was sending her, you know, information, I was talking about money, I was talking about what it takes to find an agent, how much it would cost her to work on a nonfiction book proposal with somebody like me how much time it would take, I was feeding her information, I was helping her. And it was all in insert in it that my intention was well, this is probably going to shock you but the the service that I would have worked with her on is a $24,000 service. And that would be for a serious professional to get a nonfiction proposal that hopefully will get them a book deal. Yeah. She turned out she she did not take it, she did not go for it. She decided that she didn't want to go for the agent route she that was not for her. She was horrified at the pros and cons when I laid them out of agent versus not agent. she opted out of the service that I was offering. So I spent it an hour using my best brain work to help her to help her decide not to use me. In my mind, that was a good use of time. I helped somebody I helped her come to a good decision. I did good in the world. You know, I did not get the $24,000 client. But guess what next time I might or next time I might and so you know, I think you can combine the helpfulness with the money part.Kevin Tumlinson 20:50I think in scenarios like that, you could take that conversation, boil it down to the points that were made. And then you can Create something that could simultaneously educate incoming authors who might have the same question and help you nurture mailing list for example so hundred percent right you could totally turn that into a top of funnel offerJennie Nash 21:15100% and and I have so much free content I have so much amazing resources on on my website people are welcome to come you probably do too. You know, it's it's that push and pull between offering something but not offering everything. Yeah. And I think you're right we we tend in these realms that are about creative pursuits, we tend to diminish the, the value of the expertise and I want to change that.Kevin Tumlinson 21:47Yeah, same here. Actually, personally.Jennie Nash 21:53Here's what I do with those calls. Just flip your mindset. Just think this is a consultation call personally. That I could offer. I'm going to help them on this call. I'm going to I'm going to be generous and helpful. And I'm going to, instead of giving all the answers away, think more in terms of framing the questions they have to ask. There's questions that you need to answer. Here's the decisions you have to make. Here's a way that I could help you if you wanted to sign up for that service.Kevin Tumlinson 22:24Yeah. So does does your program I mean, speaking of markets, does your program kind of arm authors that are the coaches rather with how they would market the service how they reach these authors and you?Jennie Nash 22:39Yes, yes, I do. And I studied on my own personally, a lot of marketing people and and tried to adapt the the best practices for book coaching in in my new book, which is called read books all day and get paid for it. Go way into the marketing. And I've had a couple of other top coaches reviewing the book. That's all happening right now because because it's just come out and I had somebody say to me, Jenny's advice on marketing was so spot on. And it made me laugh out loud. So I'm not going to tell you what that is, you'll have to read the book toKevin Tumlinson 23:21see how this works.Jennie Nash 23:24I totally help people do it. And here's, here's the key thing. It's not what you probably think it is. It's not take out an ad on this website or go to this conference and print out a bunch of swag or, you know, it's not that really what it amounts to is knowing what you're offering and who you're offering it for. Right. I'm going to totally botch how he says it but Seth Godin and his new book, this is marketing says something along the lines of marketing is about doing something That matters for people who care. That's, that's what I help people do is what are you doing that matters? And who's going to care about that. So if you're somebody who's helping people, at the very beginning of their book idea, going from idea to getting it on the page and helping them frame that the structure of their book, you could specialize in that point in the process and do really well because you'd become known for that part of the process. You could become someone who specializes. I have a coach who wants to specialize in helping lawyers who want to write fiction. There's a lot of lawyers who want to write fiction. Yes, yes. What a cool nice, right. Yeah. To be able to speak to a lawyer to be able to help them translate the way lawyers think and speak and write which is a very particular way to to fiction writing. I have somebody else who wants to help women in speculative fiction, because it's mostly a male dominated genre. So they want to focus on helping women get into speculative fiction. So if you focus on who you're helping, so doing Oh, I think we might have froze. Yeah,Kevin Tumlinson 25:33we froze. But we're gonna, can you hear me now? Yes. Okay, we're gonna we're gonna muddle through.Jennie Nash 25:40So they say that again.Kevin Tumlinson 25:42Yeah, you were to you're just introducing us to the idea of the woman who was helping other women who are speculative fiction, and go, Okay,Jennie Nash 25:51okay. I have another coach who's specializing in helping women break into this big speculative fiction genre because it's very male dominated, and her expertise is going to be that. So if she becomes known for that, everybody's going to send those writers to her because that's her. She's helping those people with that particular pain point. So that's what marketing in terms of book coaching is all about is becoming known for doing something really well, that helps people at a place where they really need help.Kevin Tumlinson 26:24I think you just hit on something that has always nagged at me, by the way, because there is whenever I have offered author coaching, now, right now, I'm doing it through DVD, you know, we do our consultations, little free consultations, and it's, it's meant to help the people who showed up at our webinars and stuff, so I can't charge folks for that. And I'm not trying to, but when I've tried to add this in the past, there is always that problem of, you know, focus, right. And there's that aphorism that if everyone's your customer, no one's your customer. Yeah, I think what you're saying here is that there's an opportunity if you are willing to focus on a specific aspect of this. So for me, I might I might coach, people in writing thrillers, because that's what I write, or I might coach them in, right in using, you know, I might pick something out there, right? Yeah, just the process of writing. I could do all that. But it's too broad too general. And that's probably one of the reasons why it never quite worked. I wasn't advertising or I wasn't marketing, specifically enough.Jennie Nash 27:30Right. So you, you can't make a business on even what you just said. I'm going to help people writing thrillers. Well, what people what kind of thrillers At what point in the process? Have they written a book before? Are they writing their second book? Are they writing a series or do they have a plan to write a book a year like you've got to really narrow down on what writer where they are in the process what they need? Are you helping somebody right faster? Are you helping them right? Like plot out faster. Are you helping them plot better? Are you helping them raise up their writing skills? Are you helping them? Like what exactly are you doing? So there's so many layers to figure out and, and just helping. So if you're on a consulting call with someone, and I'm sure you've been on a million of these calls, people are asking questions about all over the map, right? marketing, about social media about my website about my book cover about the production about the time about the cost about the writing itself about this and that, like that's just scattershot. Yeah, advice, but if you're honing down to really say, I can have your thriller writer, writing your first book, you've never done it before, and you need to make X, Y and Z choices. I can help you do that efficiently, effectively. And, you know, to help you toward your goal. Now I thought a viable business. Yeah, well,Kevin Tumlinson 28:56that that is the ideal reader. concept. That's the ideal reader ideal customer concept. And I'm shocked that I never put it together.Jennie Nash 29:10One thing because it's what book coaches help writers do, like if I'm working with somebody right now who's writing middle grade fiction, and she's actually a very successful nonfiction writer. And one of the things that I've become known for is helping successful nonfiction writers who want to switch over to not true. I helped her write the book that got the six figure deal for her first novel, excellent. And so I kind of have a specialty in that regard, and I'm helping a woman writing a middle grade story and she She had her story was a hot mess. Okay, so she came to me with a manuscript that just was all over the place. And it had all these characters and all these ideas and all these themes and all this stuff. And you know, it's not going to work. And so part of what I did with her was exactly what we're talking about. Who do you want to reach? Who's your ideal reader? Can't it's not enough to say an 11 year old girl, it's like, an 11 year old girl who reads what and who does what and who's thinking about what and who cares about what and we've really got to hone down on who that 11 year old reader is and what she cares about and what she needs in that book. Otherwise, that book is not going to work. So I, I do this with the writer, and we need to do this with the people helping the writers to is, you know, what are what is your gig? What are you doing to help people? Yeah.Kevin Tumlinson 30:53And as That's it, what's funny is here's what you always come back to their sort of universal pieces of advice. that fit no matter what industry you're in. If you're an author, it's no matter what genre you're in. That's this seems to be one of those pieces is to identify the specific reader slash customer you're trying to reach. We are we're at time. So which is unfortunate, because I'm enjoying this quite a bit. And I'm getting a lot out of it personally. Those are always the toughest interviews to end. But I appreciate why don't you back on Now, before I before we drop out of here, I did want to say you have coming up January 20 2020. You have a summit coming up. You want to talk about that for just a second.Jennie Nash 31:43I would love to I'm doing a free week of programming about becoming a book coach and I've got 15 killer experts who we have conversations and take you through everything from how to market how to make money, what book coaching really is how it works. And that you can find all the information at author accelerator.com slash summit. So that's author accelerator, comm slash summit. And it's free. It's a week, it's January 20 2020. And I would love to have people come. And if you can't make it, we'll be sending out those recordings so you can grab them after the fact. Very good.Kevin Tumlinson 32:25Very cool. All right. I am I think I've signed I think I managed to sign up. So I'm going to check that out and everyone listening to the sound of my voice, you should also check that out. Thank you so much, Jay, for being on. I really appreciate all the wisdom you've dropped on us.Jennie Nash 32:44Thanks for having me. All right, everybody. Right now.Kevin Tumlinson 32:47You are probably hearing the groovy bridge music and you may dance and place it will and stick around for whatever I'm going to say whatever pithy fun thing I'm sure I came up with Right after this interview and I'll see you all on the other side

"Everything is awesome! Everything is cool when you're part of a team!" - so goes the impossibly catchy song from the Lego Movie. In IT, we are often expected to be caught up in that same spirit - hyped up on the adrenaline of fixing systems, catching hackers, and inventing new stuff. These expectations - which come from external sources like our boss or company or IT culture at large, or internally from assumptions we've taken on as personal truths - can fly in the face of how we're actually feeling. When our feelings turn from just being "a little tired", "a little frustrated", or "a little sad" to serious challenges like burn out, rage, or depression, it can be hard to admit, let alone seek help or ask our coworkers for support and understanding. And yet religious, moral, and ethical traditions are rich with stories of people coping with the exact same challenges. In this episode, we're going to get brutally honest about the mental health challenges we've faced and are facing today as well as what lessons from our faiths we can carry with us to provide insight, comfort, and even strength. Listen or read the transcript below. Destiny: 00:00 Welcome to our podcast where we talk about the interesting, frustrating and inspiring experiences we have as people with strongly held religious views working in corporate IT. We're not here to preach or teach you our religion. We're here to explore ways we make our career as IT professionals mesh or at least not conflict with our religious life. This is Technically Religious. Music: 00:24 "Everything is awesome! Everything is cool when you are part of a team. Everything is awesome..." Leon: 00:31 So goes the impossibly catchy song from the Lego movie and it we are often expected to be caught up in that same spirit hyped up on the adrenaline of fixing systems, catching hackers and inventing new stuff. These expectations can come from external sources like our boss or company or it culture at large. We're internally from assumptions we've taken on as personal truths and can fly in the face of how we're actually feeling Yechiel: 00:56 When our feelings turn from just being a little tired, a little frustrated or a little sad to serious challenges like burnout, grades, anxiety or depression. It can be hard to admit or let alone seek help or ask our coworkers for support and understanding. And yet religious, moral and ethical traditions are rich with stories of people coping with the exact same challenges. Josh: 01:15 In this episode we're going to get brutally honest about the mental health challenges we faced and are facing today as well as what lessons from our face we can carry with us to provide insight, comfort, and even strength. I'm Josh Biggley and the other voices you're going to hear on this episode are my partners in podcasts, crime, Leon, Adato. Leon: 01:35 Hello. Josh: 01:36 And Yechiel Kelmenson. Yechiel: 01:38 Hi again. Josh: 01:39 Hello. All right, so this is a bit of an odd episode for us. Um, I mean this, this feels a little heavy. So before things get to, you know, heavy for us, little shameless self promotion. Leon, why don't you lead us off? Leon: 01:55 Okay, so I'm Leon Adato, uh, I'm a Head Geek at SolarWinds. You can find me on Twitter @LeonAdato. I blog and pontificate on all sorts of technical things at www.adatosystems.com and identify as an Orthodox Jew. Yechiel: 02:11 I'll take a next, uh, I'm a Yechiel Kelmenson. I'm an engineer at Pivotal. Um, you can find me on social media at @YechielK, um, if you want to read what I have to say, it's on my blog at RabbiOnRails.io and like Leon, I'm an Orthodox Jew Josh: 02:26 And I'm Josh Biggley. I'm currently an enterprise monitoring engineer, but by the time this episode drops, I'll have started a new role as a senior tech ops strategy consultant at New Relic. You can find me on the Twitters, uh, at, @jbiggley. Um, I don't actually have a place where you can find me other than I would say Twitter, LinkedIn. I I've taken to, to posting a fair bit on LinkedIn. Um, and I identify as an ex Mormon, Leon: 02:52 Um, and I'm obligated to point out to everyone who might be scribbling madly to try to write that down, that we will have show notes and it will have all those links and everything else we refer to in this episode. So please don't worry, just sit back, relax and listen, just to enjoy the conversation. So I, I have to say that this entire episode was actually inspired by a comment that Josh made during one of our other podcast. It was episode 28, which is titled Release to Production. Once again, we'll have a link to that in the production notes and around the 12 and a half minute mark, Josh said this: Josh: 03:26 And then in my own family, right, I suffer from depression and my work toward getting promoted happened to coincide with a really difficult depressive episode. Leon: 03:37 So Josh, I want to start off by talking about that specific moment. Um, do you find that you're talking, you talk about your mental health often. Josh: 03:46 I mean, you know, mental health, um, I, you know, as this episode title fight, the stigma, um, says is perhaps not something that I've talked about often. Look, I've, I've dealt with mental health issues, um, at least going back into my late teens. Um, it's something that, that kind of ebbs and flows for me. It's something that I'm comfortable with talking with my family about what my immediate family. Uh, and there are a few other people in my circle of trust who I've, I've talked to my I talked to about my mental health. Leon: 04:21 Okay. So that being the case, you know, you, you're not mental health forward when you have, hi, my name's Josh and here's my depression is not how you do things then. Then I have to ask because it, you can hear in the clip. It was just something you said and it was a point that you were making as part of a larger conversation and we move, you know, and we moved on from it. But I have to imagine that that had to feel a particular way to say that on the air like that. Josh: 04:49 I think the advantage of doing a podcast is that you record it and then it's done. And then you, you almost forget that you say it at least until I do the transcriptions. And by that point, Leon: 05:01 by the way, thank you. Josh: 05:01 You're welcome. And by that point, here's the thing, when, when you're struggling with something, um, confession is good for the soul. And I honestly, I do believe that it is good to share. I mean, did I intend to share at that particular moment? No, I didn't. Do I regret sharing? No, I don't regret sharing. Leon: 05:29 Okay. Which, which takes me to the last, you know, basic question about that moment, which is have you gotten any feedback, you know, on, on social media or in, you know, on the blog that's associated with Technically Religious or anything, you know, or even just comments that you've gotten one-on-one. Josh: 05:44 Has anybody come in and said, wow, you know, you said that and X, Y,Z , you know, uh, I haven't, and, uh, honestly, listeners, I'm a little disappointed. Uh, I know that mental health is a real struggle for people. I know many, many people, and we'll talk about this a little later, who struggle with mental health, whether we're talking about full-blown depression, whether we're talking about anxiety, whether we're talking about, you know, unhealthy levels of stress, whatever it might be, and nobody reached out. Um, I think the stigma is very real. And so, you know, if, if you're struggling or if you want to talk, you know how to find me. Leon: 06:26 Right. And I think that goes for certainly all three of us. And I, I would also say that, um, the, the Technically Religious, uh, speaker cast at large, um, one of the things we've all been very open about is, is saying, look, if you have a question about anything that you are dealing with struggling with, have a question about, curious about, we're all pretty, Oh, we wouldn't be doing a podcast if we didn't want to talk about it. Josh: 06:50 That's right. And we do like to talk. I mean, we're, we're pretty good at it. Leon: 06:54 So that's on sort of the, the podcast technical social media side. Have you shared these kinds of things in religious contexts? Josh: 07:03 Um, no, no, no, I haven't. Eh, and, um, yeah. Uh, and there's a reason for that. Um, in my, my religious community, um, as I said, I'm ex-Mormon, uh, now as our listeners know, I've, I've been transitioning since this podcast started. Um, there is a very toxic culture of perfection. Admitting that you have a mental health struggle is not a minute, is not looked at. It's looked at as a weakness. All right. Um, I F my personal experience, um, included some really fantastic people, but I also met some of the most cutthroat people that I've ever encountered in my entire life. And when you showed that soft underbelly, that weakness, your fear was that they would got you. Um, and here's the thing that's not unique to Mormonism. Um, I expected that is anytime you get a group of people together, you're going to find those, those individuals. I mean, in some organizations they may be more, but there's probably one, at least one in every organization. And for me, ultimately the, the question that I, I had to ask myself was, am I, am I generally comfortable with sharing this, um, within my religious context? And the answer was no. I mean, it's not that I didn't share it with people who shared my religious beliefs. I certainly had those, those moments, but it wasn't something that I got up in the middle of a sermon. I was like, yeah, yeah, I, I suffer from depression. And those things just didn't happen. Leon: 09:01 Right? So I think it's, it's important to point out, and, and I've said it in a very particular way on this podcast a couple of times a Judaism and apparently Mormonism also have not found the cure for the common asshole. There's still gonna be, you know, individuals who are jerks regardless of their religious affiliation. And that's, you know, that's the truth. But it's got to be hard when you are talking about, uh, w when you're having conversations around ethics and charity and Goodwill and kindness to know that there is a line in the sand that you're just not comfortable crossing that by all accounts shouldn't be there. Um, so in the Orthodox community, my, my first and my visceral experience with talking about mental health, and it's not the only one, but it's the one that comes to mind every time, is that when, when mental health comes up, um, where a lot of people go is that admitting to or getting help for mental health will make it harder for, uh, children to get a shidduch or get a match for a marriage, um, either for themselves or for siblings. So a lot of families will sweep those kinds of things under the rug. And again, it's not just don't talk about it, it's also not medicating children for everything from attention deficit to, to anxiety, to oppositional defiance disorder to anything. Because the medication itself is an admission of a problem and that can get out in the community and that can be seen as a challenge. I'm not saying it is a challenge, but I think that a lot of families immediately, that's their first worry is my kid won't be able to get married because of it. Yechiel: 10:47 Yeah, I definitely seen saying as far as the Orthodox Jewish community, that's probably the biggest obstacle in terms of talking about mental health. Um, and then on a secondary, uh, you know, started saying secondary and isn't that it's not as big a problem as the shidduch problem. Um, I find also that people have a hard time sort of owning up or admitting that they have, that they have issues because there's like, there's so much stress put on, on, you know, believing in God and trusting God that everything is good, that everything that God does is good and therefore you should be happy and you should be confident and you should be. Um, the umbrella term for it in Judaism is betach baShem to have trust in God and you feel like when you don't feel that way. When you feel, when, when you do have depression or anxiety or whatever it is, you feel like there's something wrong with you. Like if I was religious enough, if I took these ideas more to heart, I wouldn't be feeling this way. I wouldn't, you know, it's a, it's a failure on my, on my part as a person, as a religious person, not realizing course that it's a health issue, like any other health issue. And just like getting the flu doesn't mean that you're trusting God is lacking. So it doesn't getting depressed me. That is a problem in your life. Leon: 12:04 And that's, and I think we'll, we'll talk more about that in a little bit about, about how things can be addressed. But yeah, it's, it's really hard when a crisis of mental health also becomes a crisis of faith because I think those two things have a really easy time of feeding upon each other to make the entire situation much, much worse. Josh: 12:24 So I'm curious, something that, that comes to mind, um, that, at least on the surface appears to be a commonality, is this idea of the gospel of prosperity. And you see it a lot in Christianity, right? It's the whole idea that, well, if I'm, if I'm obedient enough and if I give enough than if I serve enough, then God will give me. And if I'm, if I am poor, if I'm sick, if I struggle, then you know, obviously I'm not doing, or even worse, you know, if you Yechiel, you know, if he's struggling, well obviously he's not. Uh, and then we get into that judgment that is unfortunately very prevalent in Christianity. And, and for those who are, who cannot see Leon, he is, he is writhing and agony here. Leon: 13:18 I only learned about prosperity gospel a year or two ago. I never heard of it before. And the whole thing just, I can't, I still can't wrap my head around it because it's not, it is absolutely not a Jewish concept. Um, and it, that's not what this episode is about. Josh: 13:39 That's interesting though because it's, at least within Mormonism, there is a lot of veneration about leaders and you know, how do we follow those leaders? And one of the things that at least if you go to your local bookstore and cause they still exist, there are places you can actually buy books that aren't online. I know it's weird, but if you go to your local bookstore and go to the self help section, you're going to read a titles from people who are leaders in their spaces, right? And we look to those people for inspiration. Today I was on LinkedIn and uh, uh, Jeff Weiner, who was the CEO of LinkedIn, shared a post, uh, and we'll put it in the show notes, but he was asked about what his leadership values were. And I thought that these were really interesting because as, as we're talking about this stigma or the potential for a stigma around mental health, um, if I had mental health struggles, I would want to be an environment with a leader like this. Here's what he said, "Be compassionate, be authentic, be open, honest and constructive. Be of service others. Lead by example, inspire." I thought, Holy cow, that that is what I want would want in a leader. And if I had a leader like that, then I would feel comfortable opening up to them and saying, look, these are my struggles. This is what I'm dealing with. Ken, how can I help? Or how can I continue to work and work through these struggles? I dunno, uh, Yechiel, what values do you have or what attributes do you value in, in others professionally, whether fellow engineers, managers, leaders? Yechiel: 15:38 Obviously in addition to having their technical ability, I think if they can't share that tech and global, I said, I don't have the empathy to, to look back and bring back, bring people up with them, you know, um, then, uh, they're started sort of uselessly. Um, there's a whole thing going on in Twitter now about 10X engineers. And I heard someone who said it that defined it very well. 10X engineers that someone who writes 10 times more code at 10X engineers, someone who can teach 10 times 10 more, 10 other engineers who can create 10 other engineers is sort of as a force multiplier. So if you don't have this empathy of, you know, if you don't have the communication ability and being able to bring other people up behind you, then what are you worth? Josh: 16:27 Hmm. I like that. Alright. Leon? Leon: 16:28 Yeah. Um, so in terms of professional values, I think it's all the things that are unfortunately labeled soft skills, which says everything that you need to know about how an organization perhaps views them, um, which is wrong. I think that people's ability to connect on a human level is significantly more important than their ability to do any particular technical trick. Um, or I guess I should say that if I need a particular technical skill that's a consultant or a contractor that's not a colleague, a colleague is somebody that I wanna build a relationship with. And, and Josh, to go back to your point from earlier on, I want to be among people that I am, I would be comfortable sharing those parts of my experience, not saying my life. I am not saying that you have to work with people at work who you're buddy buddy with, but you have to work with people who you can be vulnerable with in a work context where I can say, I don't know, or this has me frustrated or I'm really frightened about taking on this task. I'm, you know, I'm apprehensive about this. And you have to be able to say that, not because it's important to be vulnerable or whatever, but because if you, if you can't say that, then you're going to either avoid doing things that are, uh, opportunities for you to grow in your career and your skills, or you're going to do it anyway, and you're going to sort of do it in that sort of blind haze of panic and you may not execute well. Whereas if you have a team where you can comfortably say, I'm having a really hard moment right now, can I have, can I have five minutes? Can I have half a day? Can someone sit with me while I do this? You may not have to do anything, but I just need, I need a buddy on this. You know? Um, when you have a junior engineer who comes in and says, I've actually never, you know, done this kind of coding before and can feel comfortable saying that and the team and say, not a problem. You know, I'm going to sit right here. I'm gonna do my own thing. But when you have a question, I'm right here to answer it for you. You know, that's again, that's a vulnerability in a work context that I have to be comfortable enough to say that's the things that I value are people who, who foster those kinds of conversations. Josh: 19:03 You used a, a phrase there, um, or an example where you said, I'm not comfortable doing this thing. One, that is a really tough thing to do professionally, but it reminded me of one of the very last experiences I had in Mormonism. Um, so for context and Mormonism, there are no, there is no paid clergy at the local level. Um, they do practice lay ministry. So that means that the, the leader of your congregation is, could be your accountant to, it could be, uh, he could play a plumber. In my case, um, the, the leader of the congregation I attended as, is actually a fellow it pro, um, works for the provincial government. Really nice guy. Um, but my responsibility in the congregation was as the clerk. So I, I had a chance to invite, uh, people at the direction of, um, our Bishop to, to give sermons on Sunday and we call them talks and Mormonism. But we've actually there, there are many sermons and you'd be assigned. Everyone in the congregation ultimately gets assigned. And I remember we assigned a topic to a woman who's been a member for a very, very long time, um, you know, many, many decades. And she approached me probably a week before she was supposed to give her her talk, her sermon, and she said, Josh, I, I can't do this. Like, I, I can't speak on this topic. Uh, if you're interested, the topic was the physical nature of God. Right? Um, and so, you know, Hey, it's a heavy topic, but she's like, I read this and I'm, I, I don't, I don't understand it. And my response to her was, then talk about what you're comfortable with. I mean, pick parts of, you know, the reference material that is good for you, and then deliver that. But in your, in your comments, Leon, I was struck by how rare that might be. You know, oftentimes we're told, well, you know, just, just go ahead and do that. Um, so my next question for both of you is, we've talked about these values that we, um, that we want to see in our colleagues, in our managers professionally. Are they any different than our religious observance? Yechiel: 21:16 Not necessarily. Um, and Judaism, there's, there are two kinds of commandments. Um, there's been a bein adam lamakom, which are commandments between man, between a person and God. And bein adam lechaveiro between a person and another person. So the first category would be commandments around prayer, around the holidays, things that are between you and God. Um, the second one includes things like, do not steal, be nice to each other, help each other out. And the Talmud is full of quotes that say that if someone says that I owe, you know, there's a quote about the ethics of our fathers. If a person says, I only have Torah, then he doesn't, then even Torah, he doesn't have meaning. If someone says, yeah, I'm just going to study and learn Torah all day, that's my thing. Uh, doing things and, you know, being nice to others. That's that, you know, that I'll leave that for others. Then he doesn't even have the Torah because the Torah is all about helping others and being good with others and being good to the world. So, yeah, so just like an it, having the, you know, having the, the brilliance is nothing if you're not going to share with others, if you don't have the humility to pay it forward. Leon: 22:28 Right. And, and as an example of that, um, you know, when we're talking about rabbis, you know, the, the congregational leaders, and, and we'll get to that in a little bit also. Um, well what that really means in a Jewish context, but if a rabbi isn't comfortable getting up as part of his discussions, whether it's a sermon or a class or a lecture or, uh, a conversation, um, and say, and this thing happened, and I was, I didn't even know where to go with that, or I was feeling really overwhelmed or it really scared me. You know, any of those things. Once again, same thing as we talked about with the IT people. If they're not comfortable admitting to that, you know, quote unquote weakness, then that's, um, that's problem. If they're laboring under the misguided assumption that they have to be infallible, that is not going to end well. Yechiel: 23:27 Yeah. Uh, actually reminds me of something like my teacher brought up a lot. Uh, one of the foremost commentators on the Torah Rashi, Rabbi Shlomo Itzhaki, who lived around 900 years ago in France. And he, so he's like the foremost commentator on the Torah, every pretty much every homeless you'll find at any synagogue has his commentary there. And there's actually a pretty famous, uh, one of the verses, Rashi quotes some line from the verse and says, I don't know what this is teaching us. And my teacher said, you know, why did he bother saying that? If you don't know, just leave it out. I mean, you're not, why do you have to tell us? So how many did you say that, you know, it's true. There were probably many other places where Rashi didn't know any, he didn't say anything, but he made a point to say it at least, at least once. So that we should know that it's okay to say, I don't know. Josh: 24:18 I liked that. I liked that. So what happens when we encounter in our professional, personal, religious, you know, community environments, people who look at these values that we have, that we, that we desire and others and be like, I don't care. Wait, I, I'm going to violate these values. I mean, I can tell you what happened to me that led to my transition out of Mormonism when I saw people within Mormonism, uh, specifically leaders of the church who were acting in a way that had I acted locally, my wife would have been mad at me, my fellow congregants would have been mad at me. My Bishop may have pulled me in and said, Hey, Josh, like, what the hell are you doing? Like this is not the way you behave. Um, I certainly would have been judged. And so when I saw that from others, that began my spiral down up. I don't know which direction, uh, at the time it was down, but now I feel like it was up. Uh, and, and ultimately out of Mormonism. So, I mean, Leon, Yechiel what happens, what happens when we're, we're, we're, our values are violated? Yechiel: 25:23 So I think like Leon mentioned earlier that, you know, no one found the carry out for the common asshole. Um, you realize that you know these things, you know, these people exist and they are not the people that we want to be around. If it's possible, like you did so cut them out of your life though that does come from place of privilege and how it always is that an option both in religion and in it, not always can you just leave your job or leave your congregation or leave your community. Um, but if you can do it, if you can't try to distance yourself as much as you can. Leon: 25:59 I know that Josh, your, your transition was, you know, there wasn't like, well that was the one thing, you know, there was a lot of things that led up to this, this decision. So I don't, I don't want to characterize it as well, if only you had done this one thing that you wouldn't have those problems. You know, again, it was like all real problems. It was complex and had a lot of moving parts. Um, I think that if, if anyone listening has an experience with somebody where, you know, again, they violate these values that the religion as a whole holds as fundamental or that you personally hold as fundamental. I think the thing is to remember that they're one individual, that they're, you know, that, that they don't make up the sum total of a community, IT community or, or other. If you find yourself in an environment where those values are upheld and lauded, you know, the, the so-called toxic environment, you know, bro-grammer culture in an IT department or um, you know, or, or toxic management or, uh, or just a really unhealthy congregational life or a congregation that, that espouses a value that isn't intrinsically negative, but it's not something that's helpful for you, um, to remember that you, you do usually to Yechiel's point, usually have a choice. And that choice doesn't have to hurt. It just, it might be different. And to give you a very innocuous example of that. And I've talked about this on our podcast before, I, I read Hebrew very slowly. I'm, I've been working on it for a long time. I'm getting better, but it's still slow. And so when I find myself in a congregation that values the speed with which the prayers go, "we can get morning services done in 20 minutes. It's great!" You know, when, when I'm in there like, Hey look, I found somewhere that's not my place. This is really not for me. Um, and as you know, if I'm, if I need to be in that environment for whatever, I just sort of tough it out. But I know that as soon as I can get out of that environment, I, that's, that's what I'm going to need to do. It's not helpful for me. It's not healthy for me. It doesn't do anything for me. So that's again, that's an innocuous version. If you are in an environment that is exacerbating your mental state, um, either because you know, what you're hearing in the pews is mimicking the, the mental negative self talk that you have going on in your own head or it's making you feel more anxious rather than less or you feel like you can't share anything about who you really are with the people around you. Then, you know, it may take time, but you need to know that there are other communities, there are other places to go in most cases. Again, I'm not diminishing the, the long journey that Josh, you and your family have gone through. Josh: 29:04 No. Yeah. I think that Maya Angelou really sums up something that I wish I had known before and I, I didn't know who my Angelou was before I began my faith transition. But among other notable quotes, she says, "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time." And I think that that's really powerful when you are, when you're looking for people who you need to trust. Um, especially when it comes to our mental health. Um, if someone tells you, I am not someone who's going to protect you, um, and you see that, don't bring them your struggles because they're there, they're not going to be healthy for you. Leon: 29:46 Can't wish people into being the person that you need them to be at that moment. Josh: 29:50 That is right Leon: 29:50 We know you can't listen to our podcast all day. So out of respect for your time, we've broken this particular conversation up. Come back next week and we'll continue our conversation. Doug: 30:00 Thanks for making time for us this week to hear more of Technically Religious, visit our website, TechnicallyReligious.com, where you can find our other episodes, leave us ideas for future discussions and connect to us on social media. Josh: 30:14 At Technically Religious, we usually have something funny to say at this point in the show, but mental health is nothing to take lightly. If you are struggling, please reach out to a family member, friend, or a healthcare professional. If you are in crisis, please seek immediate medical attention. You are not alone. Fight the stigma.

[fusion_builder_container hundred_percent="no" equal_height_columns="no" menu_anchor="" hide_on_mobile="small-visibility,medium-visibility,large-visibility" class="" id="" background_color="" background_image="" background_position="center center" background_repeat="no-repeat" fade="no" background_parallax="none" parallax_speed="0.3" video_mp4="" video_webm="" video_ogv="" video_url="" video_aspect_ratio="16:9" video_loop="yes" video_mute="yes" overlay_color="" video_preview_image="" border_size="" border_color="" border_style="solid" padding_top="" padding_bottom="" padding_left="" padding_right=""][fusion_builder_row][fusion_builder_column type="1_1" layout="1_1" background_position="left top" background_color="" border_size="" border_color="" border_style="solid" border_position="all" spacing="yes" background_image="" background_repeat="no-repeat" padding_top="" padding_right="" padding_bottom="" padding_left="" margin_top="0px" margin_bottom="0px" class="" id="" animation_type="" animation_speed="0.3" animation_direction="left" hide_on_mobile="small-visibility,medium-visibility,large-visibility" center_content="no" last="no" min_height="" hover_type="none" link=""][fusion_text][/fusion_text][fusion_text] Listen via YouTube video if desired [/fusion_text][fusion_youtube id=" https://youtu.be/TKvtTopIsjI" alignment="center" width="" height="" autoplay="false" api_params="&rel=0" hide_on_mobile="small-visibility,medium-visibility,large-visibility" class="" /][fusion_text] A significant key to Joanna Keskitalo's is 120 transactions a year is how she follows-up on leads. Read on for details... You've heard it said "the fortune is in the follow through."  Well, that's definitely the case with Joanna Keskitalo.  Joanna is a high-volume producer, but not for the reasons most people would think.  She's driven, but she's not a high-pressure sales person.  Her key?  It's all in her follow through. If you want to grow your business to a "top producer" level, you master the follow through to convert leads to clients.  And on this call, that's one of the things we talk about! Listen as a podcast while driving, or watch the live interview. Transcription (was completed by automated process.  Please ignore any speech-to-text errors) [00:00:01] This is the get sellers calling you marketing podcasts for real estate agents. And I'm Beatty Carmichael for simple to do. Proven marketing strategies focus exclusively on finding sellers and getting more listings. Visit our Web site and get sellers calling you dot com. And now let's begin our next session of get sellers calling you. [00:00:23] Hi, I'm Beatty Carmichael, and welcome to the Get Sellers calling you realtor podcast. I'm excited today because I get to interview another wonderful agent, actually one of our clients and a strong producer named Joanna Keskitalo from South Carolina. Did I pronounce last name right, Joanna? [00:00:41] You did well. [00:00:42] Ok. Go. Go. Go. So. Hey, Johnny, I just want to say thank you again for being on the call with us today and sharing some of your insights and growing the business and things that really make it work for you. [00:00:57] Well, thank you. You're welcome. Glad to be here. [00:01:01] Now, which part of South Carolina are you in? [00:01:05] Kind of a upstate, little bit into the mountains where I live is about 15 to 20 minutes from the North Carolina border. So they call it upstate Greenville. [00:01:20] Area. [00:01:22] Well, that's a pretty area I know I used to spend a lot of my time in the mountain side of North Carolina and we would come down into Greenville. I used to I used to paddle rivers. So this is now in grade school, junior high high school. And so we'd go up there and all kinds of beautiful rivers and one of one or two were down in South Carolina. So that's a gorgeous area you're in. Oh, yes. And and just for the listeners on the call. Normally we do these as video podcast, but as the Lord would have it or as the enemy would have it, we couldn't quite get that to work out. So. So this is will be a great call, but it's entirely audio. And so join in. Tell us just if you wouldn't mind, just kind of set the stage. Can you tell us just a little bit about who you are and about your real estate business and and and and who is Joanna Khatalla? [00:02:22] Yes, I I've been in the real estate industry since 2006. Before that, I was a loan officer and kind of grew up in the building industry between and I was born and raised in Florida and then moved up here. The end of my junior year. And then from there I was. Did massage a little while and then went to college. And then. And then I started as a loan officer. And my father was a home builder who actually took me on as his real estate agent. So now it's been about 14 years. Then through a couple of different brokerages and started my own brokerage about eight or nine years ago, I have about seven agents underneath me now and we did about 22 million last year. One hundred and eight transactions and have already closed down six or seven million this year and have about eight million pending. [00:03:23] So is that all your personal volume or is that you and your. [00:03:30] Well, I kind of run it more like a team where it's all my leads and everything, so. [00:03:37] Yes, I'm involved personally pretty closely in each transaction. [00:03:41] So very, very cool. I love it. I just have to ask this question. Don has. [00:03:47] You know, I've always wondered the difference between a loan officer and a real estate agent. Obviously, you enjoy the realtor side more than a loan officer. What's the big difference that you've found? [00:03:59] I mean, I would definitely say the people interaction versus paper work is is probably the biggest thing. And yeah, I wasn't good at sitting behind a desk guy. My my first job out was with G E through Kelly Services, a staffing company, and I was under the admin for probably twenty two male engineers. And I I lasted about a month and a half in this cubicle doing schematic drawing and looking at where they don't meet each other. You know, the schematic drawing. I was like, no, that was not for me. So definitely, definitely being around people and is. Definitely more of a passion and joy than than shuffling paperwork, you know. [00:04:51] And though I love it for my 24 year old son, he was 22 at the time. He got this intern job one summer. So he's he's studying. He was he's already graduate now by the time he was in supply chain management. So, yes, his job at this 200 million a year business. They put him in a cubicle with a computer. His job was to do supply chain management type stuff. He calls me during the first day of the job and said, Dad, I can't stand this. [00:05:22] I never want a cubicle job ever again. You know that he learned real quick that was not him. So I love it. [00:05:29] No, no. And and I mean that from there. I mean, that can commission structure for me and a go getter and someone that can can do things on their own. I mean, I just cannot. I'm way too efficient to be punching a clock. So so like I get it. [00:05:49] So let me ask you a question. Go get getter side. So you've obviously I mean, you've been a go getter is it's obvious you've you started your career. You quickly moved into having your own business, being your own broker, building a team. You're involved with everything. Talk to me a little bit. So, you know, most agents out there. Their biggest struggle is getting enough leads and prospects to talk with and to work with. And it sounds like you've built kind of a machine of some sort, at least some of system. What are you doing? What are you do that you've found to really work well with you guys? [00:06:29] Well, like I said, my father was a home builder and and that really started and I guess that's a blessing. But it was that he he struggled and finding a real estate agent that. [00:06:45] You know, really was proficient enough for him to handle and and, you know, knowing in the construction industry. So I can't say I wasn't blessed in getting, you know, a start, but. Are you do you have to pound the pavement? You have to follow up with people. I would not describe me as like I mean, maybe that's wrong to say, but like a old car salesman type. I'm not pushy, but I am persistent. Like, follow up, follow up, follow up. I mean, that's just what you got to do in that. And then and not only following up once you're in in the transaction is to, you know, follow through and then follow through. Tell that to the closing table. Like it's way easier not to let those go and just wait for the next buyer as fighting every portion that it takes to get them closed. So I would think that the follow up and follow through are two biggies that a lot of people do fail at because it is it's consistent and it's hard work. So I think those are two things that you would need to be to be a successful real estate broker agent. [00:08:14] We know they they say that a fortune is in a follow through. And that is so Treves. I was telling a another guy today. This is a few years back. You know, we had a handful of sales reps and one sales rep. I was to tell him that, you know, you know, first, three weeks after doing a presentation, he had the lowest conversion rate. But within another four weeks, he had the highest conversion rate of anyone because the fortune is in a follow through. You have a. So in terms of the people that you guys work with and the work that you do, are you. And I want to I want to understand who your prospects are and then ask and find out a little bit about your follow up and how you manage it. [00:08:58] Do you do you follow up with different leads differently? I mean, are you. First off, I guess. What type of leaders are you generating? Are they coming to you or are you buying leads or you generating your own? It's your business source coming through. [00:09:16] Well, I handle the I'm a little bit different because the new construction and the custom home side and that is, you know, our main builders. My father and husband. So I handle all of their. Customers. So we're doing a lot of just name building through. Social media and through the Web sites, and so I guess the the follow up or follow through as far as that goes, I mean, just pictures and constantly updating all the Web sites and that kind of thing. In this day and age, a lot of social media on on all the different sites. So I do that through the real estate side and the building side and then the building a lot of times they'll have a house to sell. And so I will get those listings. But then in general, I mean, it's not it's not it's not even 50 percent of my business that comes through the custom and that. And we. I mean, when you're in 14 years. Yes. We have a database system used, top producer. And then you're doing now the postcards and the. And the Monday morning copies and that kind of follow up with past referrals and past clients. A lot of. Again, through social media, I mean, it is easier that way. If you can build a relationship where you can be Facebook friends with them, they get to know you. They feel like they get to know you more personally. You know, if you if you are a little bit more open and vulnerable in that social media, that all all that kind of stuff helps but a ton of a ton of marketing in every way. [00:11:10] So, yes. [00:11:11] So, you know, it's interesting you're talking about Facebook and just being vulnerable. I think it is so important. So you've got all your all your past clients and all your other contacts or all friends and your Facebook and Facebook friends. Right. [00:11:28] I try. You know what I mean? And and do I do hold the private account, you know, personally? And then obviously the the real estate and building pages are public. But I'm still a little bit, you know, hold myself right that I haven't got my personal pages are still held private, but that I think they appreciate where you're accepting or asking them for a friend request. And that is where you can be, you know, more. [00:12:00] I don't know. Vulnerable is the right word, but more personal. In your in your post, in that kind of stuff without worrying about it being on a on a totally public forum. [00:12:10] You know, when you said that the thing hit me and then I'm falling, maybe connected the dots that I've always been spinning back in my mind. So I just set the stage. One of our other clients used us. [00:12:23] And then he was also I did a Facebook community page for it was a fifteen hundred home forum he was in and he was the administrator on the page. So every time someone joined the Facebook page as the administrator, he would welcome them, but then he would also send them a friend request personally from his Facebook account. And this is what he sought to share with me. His name is Nelson. And he said, you share that. You know, he put everyone on as friends on his Facebook account. And then he was just normal, you know, sending all updating things just personally what's going on in his life and those things. And and I think was 18 months he went from basically nothing, no market share and form to like 25 percent market share in other team only has 50 percent. And you connected the dots is when when they know you, they see you all the time. [00:13:22] And now they feel like they're you know, they see you on Facebook. And so they feel like they really get they know you more. And it makes it more personal. Right. So talk to me in terms of follow up. [00:13:34] So follow up. Follow up. Follow what? How did you manage? Okay. So you're working with a lot of people and you get a lot of this is from the construction and a lot of business, I guess, from past clients and just other people. Are you. Do you use. Tell me about your follow up system. Because this is one. I'll be honest. This is when when we work with clients. This is one of the big challenges. They're not. They don't have a good system. What have you what have you found? Doesn't work. What did you kind of do in the early days? It just kind of blew up on you. And then what have you found really makes it all work for you. [00:14:15] I have to think about that one, but. [00:14:19] I mean, I have used. [00:14:23] I mean, a database system. I mean, once it gets messy, it's so I still have top producer because I have those leads in there and then, you know, now I'm pretty strict on my admins and stuff on keeping that database because. You know, if it gets big enough and and a big company wants to look at buying you out or something, really the only thing that you are selling. Is your database. So I went from like not understanding that and caring about. My database as like now is part of closing steps. Where are you? Where? I mean, I'm lucky enough to be able to afford admin help at this point. But if you had it clean from the beginning and people would be from step one. What you can build to sell later. Is so important and it's easier to start that at step 1 than trying to find out and then figuring out if they moved and where. But now it's part of closing steps where we come work, where we get when they go the closing, we get the e-mails and that kind of thing. And it's clean. Cleaner in the process. And it's a much cleaner database. And that than, you know, it's the latter part of of my career. It should have been done from the beginning. But, you know, you just think you're going to work forever. [00:16:01] When you're when you get in the business in the 20s, you just say go, yeah, you does. [00:16:05] And now I'm like, think about retirement someday. And so and then all of follow up and everything can be more that is if your database is clean. So I would preach even more more to database and then follow up because then a lot of stuff can be automated. And I mean, like we talked about, I mean, phone calls are are difficult. I mean, I'm on the phone all day long. But to. I think that and I like. And I can't. I have to admit with our with our last conversation and maybe the people won't know what we're talking about. But I I talked about maybe that maybe we don't need to. When you get to trying to articulate this better, when you get large, large enough and you don't really need the business, the phone calls slack off. So maybe we were talking about looking at it from maybe that person needs to hear from you. We'll make it easier on me to make those phone calls, because if I'm looking at not so much as a business aspect and the next deal, because you will eventually you get so busy and stuff and then you're you you do develop a well oiled machine that kind of generates generate their own leaves and stuff. The phone calls are the easiest thing to go in. And like we we talked about that. Its people are the only thing that you can invest in that will be eternal in that play. So again, I haven't done that and I get busy, but it's definitely it gave me a different perspective on follow up. [00:18:03] I love them. And I love that. Gosh, there's so much I want to try to pull out of you. And I know I want to have time to, but I'm seeing all these rich targets to inquire on. Let me let me take that last comment. And so for those listening to this. Oh, what? What we talked about last time is I was sharing with Joanna that one the most important things you do with your personal lives, especially your personal lives. But any list is they do business with you first and foremost because they like you and they know that the relationship is authentic. And so one of the things that we teach our clients when we provide our agent dominators service is for them to reach out and make a phone call and or drop by. And actually personally engage. And it's not an engagement that says, hey, do you have any more real estate business I can help you with? But it's a hey, how are you today? I was just thinking about you. And this is where, Joanna, you were mentioning you're so busy, you just don't have time. And I said, you know, we're talking about you need to make time. And. And then we talked about on the eternal aspect that the most important thing is rather than calling for real estate, call for personal needs. And I think somewhere in this conversation I was talking with you. In fact, Dwight, this kind of springboard is I reached out to you a moment before our call. This was a couple of weeks ago. And on your voicemail, you mentioned, you know something about it then and be blessed. Do you remember putting that on your voicemail? [00:19:43] I do. It's kind of. Then then what I do for years, because my man life is hard now. You know what I mean? People are mean. You know? And just. If someone needs to. And and our blessings do come from the Lord. [00:19:59] And I want everybody to be blessed. And I'm going to cry. So, you know, I. I do. I just want to spread that if that spreads. Anyone here just listening to my voice, it better than like, hey, leave me a message. And they won't get back to you. At least they've heard that in a cell. So I have done that on my voicemail for years and I will continue to do so. [00:20:24] So, you know, and I do that, too. But but because I come in and I said, tell me about this, be blessed. And we've got in the conversation that you love the Lord Jesus, and he's a real integral part of your life. And this is been where I was suggesting to you when we last talked. Is both make these phone calls to your list. But don't worry about this, since the Lord can take care of it. When you just reach out as a person, say, hey, is there anything I can pray for, you got or just something like that and and use it as a ministry outreach. And that's what you were talking about. I just want to bring people into that loop of of the reference that you were making while we're on the subject. Let me springboard into this, if you don't mind. [00:21:11] So I really want to find out more about follow up, but there are a lot of people that can do a great follow up stuff. I'm real curious. If you don't mind me probing, I look to probe about your relationship with the Lord and how you see it impacting your real estate business. It's OK to kind of a good direction. We can go in. [00:21:32] Yes. OK. [00:21:36] Talk to me a little bit about that. You know, so you're a Christian. First off, let's make sure everyone. What does it mean to you? You're what does it mean to you to say, I'm a Christian? And what is your relationship with the Lord Main? And then and then I won't inquire about how it impacts your business. [00:21:54] You're listening to the Get Cellar's Calling You podcast to increase sales from past clients and sphere of influence or from a geographic farm, learn about Agent Dominator. [00:22:03] We guarantee your sales in writing or give your money back. To learn more. Visit our Web site and get sellers calling EW.com and Slike Agent Dominator from the menu. [00:22:13] And now back to the podcast. [00:22:19] Well, I'm probably a rebel in my face, you know. And I guess that stems from. [00:22:29] You know where we come from as far as my background. I mean, it's Apostolic Lutheran was was the original base and and a lot of them turned to legalism and really, really strict things, you know, from no birth controls to hearings, arson and all of this stuff that we're where we totally forgot about Grace. And so not that I'm like we're all sinners, but I'm I'm a rebel. And my faith that that. I don't want anything good I do to come through me that comes through Christ, Jesus. I don't even want to know when I'm doing good or or that I I just it scares me to to fall into legalism because I feel like that is the the devil's way of taking some Christians when they think they're doing good and that that it is all Christ. So for me, when it says Christian, it is Christ. He did it all. He paid it all. And that's where where I want to stay. So if I if I have a glass of wine or I say a cuss word or like that doesn't make me not a Christian. It makes me. Have a savior. So Grace is is where I live and breathe, so in it they come across that like, how can this girl be a Christian? Because she'll feel likes to have fun or do this or. And but that's why I'm so hard, again, you know, not focusing on the sin so much, but at focusing on our savior. [00:24:34] So I love that. And I think there's a lot of a lot of folks that kind of get caught up in this whole legalism. I'm real curious. I'm not getting into big detail, but just kind of conceptually in your mind, what is legal as in and here's what I'm asking for. So there are a lot of people out there that are listening to this that may not understand the difference between grace and legalism and really kind of what that means or maybe what are the things to watch out for. OK. If that's the right term to use, but of where they are. Maybe they think they're doing it right, but they find out they're following a set of laws instead of. Grace, can you give me just, you know, your simple definition of. Legalism versus grace. What does that mean? [00:25:25] I think it probably would come down to works and. You know, when they. It's that personal relationship with Christ that you need to have and realize that we are all sinners, whether we follow this set of rules or we don't follow this set of rules. You know where it where you know there is. Don't. But I think there's a lot of dude. You know what I mean? Like, they do this. Exactly right. And it's almost like a perfectionist path. So either the set of rules of don't or do. We're all sinners. And that Jesus paid that whether what that set of rules is. And so I think breaking of that and living. Knowing that Jesus paid it all brings a lot of freedom because I've seen a lot of people struggle really, really bad when they. Ah. Ah, just like need to be like reminded of forgiveness of sins and that kind of thing where they're so it's hard to explain unless you've seen it. But it's. Can you give me an example? [00:26:46] I mean, just something that comes to mind for someone to struggle because of this legalism approach? [00:26:53] Well, I mean, that I think a lot of I've seen it in people going down past where it where maybe they had it like, for example, like drinking was super bad in in our religion. But it was almost like, well, they messed up. So then they like went off the deep end and got more into drugs and drinking instead of being like, well, if you messed up and got drunk one time, it's okay. You know what I mean? So it brings them when they are pounded in in their head so much that then and you can't sin and you can't sin. You just totally wipe out what Jesus did. And in that grace. So, you know, I don't seen it. Yeah. [00:27:41] Yeah. Yeah. Those came to him. Is Roman J. There? No. [00:27:45] Therefore, there is no no condemnation for those who Jesus. And when you mentioned that I think so late. You know, I guess. Let me see if this makes sense. Legalism. Is that part where you're always condemned. You're you're feeling can do it right. Never do good enough. And great. Is that part says, hey, I understand I'm a sinner, but in Christ, there's no condemnation. And he's going to help me through this. And it's not the writers. [00:28:14] I mean, this is a kind of radical, right? I mean. Yeah, where? Where? [00:28:18] I mean, or like Pharisees and that where the judgment and that it just I've seen that so much and so many problems come from that, that that is where I don't want to. In the end I have a perfectionist nature and I am a rule follower. You know what I mean? But I don't. So I could go down that road easily where I could and then become judgmental and what you're doing and what. But I'm like, yeah, I've seen it mess up people so much that that's why my face. I just want to give it all to Christ and give it to him because it is what he did and and and that's where the focus is. And then it's weird because like if you don't if you focus on the note. Don't, don't, don't, don't, don't. Our human nature wants to do what we're not supposed to do. And if you focus on Christ and then that's where it says like God, don't let your right hand know what your left hand is doing and things like that, that it becomes easier if you're focusing on Christ. You're actually doing good without knowing you are. So I feel like focus on crises that have a list of dos or don't really, really brings freedom. You know what I mean? And you have fun in life and you enjoy life and that of like I messed up again, you know, let me get with what I mean. [00:29:49] So Paul talks about renewing your mind. And and I think, you know, a lot of times we focus so much on. Don't do don't do I have to do it this way? Trying to be good. Right. [00:30:05] But the reality is, what you're talking about is when we have Christ and we focus on Christ, then he lives in us and through us. And we. More and more naturally do good and more and more naturally avoid bad. And it's that inside out as opposed to outside in. How does this how does your relationship. Talk to me a little bit about how you applied in your business. [00:30:28] So, you know, I got your voicemail and you try to should, you know, be blessed. Just helping. What other things do you do? How do you live your Christian life as a realtor and. [00:30:42] And how it impacted your business. [00:30:47] Well. [00:30:50] I don't know if I'm great. I mean, that's I mean, I guess I don't wear my heart on my sleeve. But maybe maybe people see because, you know, Christ is in me. Maybe people see that and I'm not shy. You know what I mean? I'm not totally politically correct or watch and hide my face. But I will share my faith and. [00:31:23] You know, so I don't know if I like I said, because I don't. I'm afraid of a list of do's and don'ts. I just kind of live. [00:31:36] And can you give me an example? And not not to bring attention to you. But here's kind of what I'm you know, for those who are listening, who do follow the Lord and they want to have a more meaningful, you know, a more meaningful impact in life rather than say, well, I'm a real estate agent here. And then I try to do my Christian stuff there. Can you give me an example of just how this flows into your business? Is there anything that comes to mind? [00:32:05] I mean, I guess not hiding it kind of means a lot in this day and age. Not being afraid to say I love Jesus. You know, people do they get fearful of it. They want to they think it's going to hurt someone's. And. And then in building a business with integrity, honesty, like I do, I'm almost honest to a fault. I guess you know what I mean? And I'm I didn't say honest, but I should say for once. But very much. You won't have to guess my opinion. You won't have to guess what I'm thinking. I'm. Very, you know, blunt in that way. I don't know if that is a fault, but I feel like it's good. I mean, I feel like. People appreciate that. And they know where they stand, especially in transactions or something that's not, you know. And I think that it makes me a fairly good negotiator as far as as as deals and stuff like that. [00:33:15] And I feel like people people see my my. [00:33:23] That I'm ethical in that and that I tried to just do my best on every transaction. And and I feel like that should mean something. And I think that people do appreciate that. [00:33:37] So is there anything that stands out where you can look at a transaction for negotiation, for some interaction where? You did it differently than, you know, you would have done it if. You didn't have the relationship with the world. Does that make sense? Trying to contrast. [00:34:01] Yeah, I mean. I mean, that is that would be easy to do in every circumstance. You know, I mean, like. But it gave me an example. [00:34:11] Give me an example. Just just to kind of articulate what this means. [00:34:17] I mean, I feel like you could be so unethical and and real estate brokers are. I mean, in so many ways, I can't pinpoint an example, but I mean, you just lying. You know, I mean, sometimes it's easier to to say you have a multi offer situation or or that's way lower than that other offer or anything like that. I mean, just just being honest in every transaction and a you know, and not even stretching the truth makes your job harder. It really can. You know, so I mean, that's what I'm saying. Maybe I am want us to a fault, but I'm not going to say if there's a multi offer situation or. Oh, yeah, I have an offer on the table or something. If it's not, they are like ISIS, right? I will that my integrity means more to me than that transaction. So, you know, I've never done that. So I don't know what particular transaction, but I'm sure that I could have definitely made things easier on me had I had I fibbed a little bit. [00:35:30] So, you know, I get it. Hey, look, I want to I want to pursue two more questions with caution. [00:35:38] I want to go back, if I can, to the follow up. And then come back to your relationship with Christ. On the follow up. And what you do. So we were talking about your list. Keeping your list clean. And the thing that hit me. Because we do all, as you know, with a lot of folks who might have agents who come to us to help them market to their sphere of influence and past clients. And the one biggest challenge most of them have is they don't have a list or they have a list. It's not been updated because they've never really seen the value of it. And so you putting that effort and emphasis into your list is really great. Can you give any hints or suggestions of how to make that process easy? Did you know what have you found or what have things have you put in place so that it stays updated? [00:36:36] Yeah, I mean, they say if you're a new agent out to start number one, whether it be a notebook paper and write everything. And then I mean, obviously a computer system easier. I use top producer and then they've kind of, you know, 14 years later, you don't really want to shut it down and start over. But now I have a system where when it closes, you know, you just have them fill out a little thing and then ask you if you want to transfer. So if it's a buyer we're working with, that'll transfer to their address. And obviously, you know, it changes. But now then you can automate things and that kind of stuff. But I mean, even if you're new, just get their information. Don't be afraid to ask for their information. So we're working with them. [00:37:32] So. So you have a system. I love this, I think is what I'm looking for. You personally and you and your team, you'll have somewhere in your process where you are specifically asking them for their information so you can get it all in the database within that come Commonwealth. So it at closing his eyes when you're basically making sure you're getting all the information accurate or. [00:37:56] Yeah. And then we've created it with a survey, you know, so we're getting that testimonial or feedback and assistance. [00:38:04] She and I mean, if you worked with them on that and, you know, to bring to the closing table and just, you know, we try the best we can on that. And then we update our database based off of that. So. [00:38:21] And so, yeah, we did. [00:38:25] We do that at closing. [00:38:26] But I mean, any time you feel like some people say it's better to do it upfront, that you know what I mean? [00:38:35] Because they vent through the headache of a transaction and everything. So they like you sebastiano the first day. So in the end, though. But I mean, I feel like we keep pretty good rapport and have them good say good things at closing. So we do it then. [00:38:51] But wherever you felt more comfortable, it's just a matter of getting that information. And then. [00:39:01] And then what do you do mean when? What do you do with it once you have it? So now you built this database. You're getting it updated. Are you do anything special with. [00:39:11] Well, we have different like so depending on where the lead came from. Like I have a site called Upstate bank-owned Homes dot com. So when I did some of my best work when the economy crashed, because I started that site with with the cell site that led to mine and I was giving bank auction list, which I still get phone calls that are like, where's my where's my list this month? I mean, so. So they'll it depends on what you know. Because we have a computer system we can put on, that's where they buy our 2018 seller. 2018 where they did they come on for a bank-owned and they're just getting the auction list on a monthly basis or what. So it depends where where we categorize them, what they get. [00:40:10] So. And then you then follow up emails for past clients, all that kind of stuff. So we we can set up campaigns and do it. [00:40:21] Ballet. [00:40:22] So have you found one or two things among all the things you do to be most effective? You know, so you have the kind of the 80/20 rule, 20 percent of what you do generates 80 percent your business. [00:40:36] Have you found anything like that with with your follow up? [00:40:40] With any of this. [00:40:45] I mean, I still I think that phone calls would do the best, I mean, and and that is where my my fault comes in. [00:40:55] But, you know, I know my buyer's agents are are calling their their past clients on a regular basis, more regular basis than me. [00:41:07] And but that that's where you date the new new agents and that once, you know, you have to go back to the basics. And and. You know, pound the pavement, follow up and call those people. I think they're still especially in this technology age. There's nothing like a phone call. [00:41:33] So true very much. Let me. And then last question on just this line of questioning, and I want to talk one more thing and then we'll wrap up the call. They are off at the beginning to call your time out, follow up, follow up, follow up. [00:41:52] In terms of and I'm assuming these are you're talking about that when you have a buyer prospect or seller prospect, you're following up the whole time or are you talking about. Once you have this database in place that you're following up the whole time. Where do you put first your biggest emphasis on the follow up that you've experienced personally that you do? I don't think we know Phillip is so important. Where where do you find it? What? What part of your follow up is driving your business? And I wanted to see if you could share a little bit about what you do in that follow up. Or how you do it or, you know, just kind of peel back an onion a little bit more and share what you've found, be success. [00:42:43] I mean, where you're kind of basing your company on was founded through like 33 touchin Keller Williams and I mean that it it does. So they remember you. So I mean, just that the emails. And we tried to do even Facebook stuff and Instagram, like I have a social media calendar where it's like, you know, there's a day for everything now. So you just whatever. And then as far as Easter goes or something like that, and then you can do the same thing through holidays and kind of set up a campaign that you're just following up with past clients. And then we just have it set up on an automated. So they're getting on top of the Monday morning coffees. They're getting the Happy Easter, Happy New Year's, all that kind of stuff. So I guess the biggest thing is the more automated you can bring thing, then it just done. You know what I mean? Because it's hard to even in like the social media where we're doing to look at the calendar on a daily basis and get that post out there. It sounds so easy, but when you get busy. [00:44:01] So if you can just automate the posting then or automate the emails and that kind of stuff and people appreciate that just you know, so. But you should probably get on the phone and say happy birthday to you. [00:44:17] So that's the default is really almost so stay in touch with food as opposed to constantly following up on for specific transaction, just staying in touch. [00:44:30] So when a transaction is available, then yeah, I think the follow through once the transaction is where I would say the follow through. So you're not just like, oh, trying to get to the closing table. That's where kind of my loan officer background where I know what to ask for when and I have closing coordinator's now. [00:44:47] But I mean their eyes pounded the pavement. [00:44:52] I mean I many before I could afford admins and all of that. I mean I was up to 3:00 in the morning night. I have four children as well. Like I've I've you know, you've put them to bed and then you you work and then you wake up in the morning and put them to school and you work again. You know, my as you grow. But that I mean, I didn't just yet that 22 million I work. [00:45:17] So, I mean, it's not like you just jump into this and do 22 million in transactions. [00:45:25] So and definitely not for children and being a full time. [00:45:28] No, no. [00:45:31] So, yeah, I remember talking to my best friend many nights at 2:00 in the morning like he's a photographer and she would be editing and doing now all. And now, you know, we're like, when's the last time we've done that? Like, no, we're sleeping now. But before I mean, she would be editing photos and I would be putting in listings and then, you know, doing everything. [00:45:53] So, you know, it takes it it takes a village. [00:46:00] But, yeah, we we did pound our pavement, so. [00:46:03] Hey, let me ask you one final question before we wrap up. Fall back on your relationship with the Lord. Have there been any times we were talking before we saw the call about, you know, life is full of challenges? Is there anything more if you could share a challenge where, you know, just share your relationship with the Lord really helps you through it? And I don't know if that makes sense what I'm asking for, but just kind of a broad question. But, you know, I don't think so. [00:46:33] Yeah. [00:46:35] Yes. And. And I guess I don't know, I joke I joke about God wanting me to have so many anchors in heaven, but. I have lost a lot of significant people in my life, very close. [00:46:55] I lost my brother of cancer when I was eight and he was five in 1988. I've lost my fiance. He was building our house framing and he fell 20 feet and then passed away of a head injury and that I was engaged to be married. And he died two months before our wedding. I lost my baby in the womb at 26 weeks. I lost him and I've questioned God. You know, I mean, it's. [00:47:35] I don't think I would be living breathing without Jesus. I would be a total drug addict or something. I don't know how you get through stuff like that without Jesus, without the hope that, you know, I will see Diana again and I will see Mike again. And, you know, I. I asked. And I asked God in particular about my baby, because I don't understand. How we wanted to put a baby in my room if I was never going to have that joy, you know. And that was he wasn't going to be in this earth. And. He answered me that he he wouldn't have been a soul. He wouldn't have been a bean. He wouldn't be in in heaven if he hadn't put him. In my wounds, he was just meant for heaven. So I I live and breathe and stand going through some. Really, really hard stuff in life. And I'm, you know, I to wake up to live every day, I just don't understand how people do stuff like that without Christ. I just absolutely don't understand. So. You know, so. Tough stuff, but I'm. I feel like. [00:49:07] I won't I'm not for me, I I live, I'm excited. I love life. I, you know, I'm not in I'm not on on any anxiety meds and I'm not on any anti-depressants. I'm not on any of that. And the only way that I can have joy in life after such traumatic events is because of Christ. So I. Yeah. I just don't I don't understand how people do things like that without Christ. Am I? [00:49:39] So you ask me, I'm like, there's just no other way to do it. But with with the hope of salvation. Like, I just couldn't even imagine myself if I didn't have Christ in those. [00:49:51] In my life and in everything he's brought me through and I. [00:49:58] I had like. I guess. Dan, my my fiancee who passed away. [00:50:09] She's lost a lot. His mother and Carl, Dan's brother, passed away and a similar thing and we're thinking it's probably a heart condition of some sort now because even though Dan fell, he was like agile. He's 22 and he was really agile, really fit. And and his brother saw him fall and he fell like a ragdoll. And Carl, now he he she died in the tub. [00:50:40] And they really don't know what what happened. But. [00:50:47] When Coral died, it took me like God hit me because it was like almost a relief, because when you go through such traumatic things, you're worried about what's around the next corner and what what. You know what I mean, what you're scared of, what can happen and you're fearful. And God hit me, like because I was like my heart just went to Jan, which was Carl and Dan's mother. Like, how how could you do this again to her? And he told me, look, tell Joanna that you live, breathe. When I bring you to something, I will bring you through it. And. [00:51:36] You know, that that's that's great to. [00:51:42] You're making me cry, That's a wonderful Jesus to have me that I'm successful. [00:51:53] Yes. But to Britain, to have any kind of joy in life and jahns joyful to unus. I mean, you could probably interview her. She. He's a wonderful woman and she's a real estate broker as well, but man, it's just. That that's grace and that's a wonderful. A ussler where I can live and breathe and be excited about life. Then what is going to happen and not be fearful because. Because he created it all and he did it all and he created heaven and. And we'll see them all again. So, yeah, sorry. [00:52:37] I told you I could go. So love it. [00:52:43] My mind is perfect. [00:52:45] Love cast out fear. And you know, I remember doing a eulogy for a man I had just met a couple of months prior. And the thing that stood out is. You know. Your family's going to stream again. And when you have hope in Christ, then a lot easier to bear. [00:53:09] Yeah. And I mean, I'm not saying it's not me. I mean, it was easy. And I'm like, oh, I'm not one to grieve. I mean, this is horribly painful, you know, but it took even. Take your next step. Without Christ, that's impossible. Where is that where that where it says all things through Christ are are plausible. She's been. When you're in that moment, I don't see any other way that taking your next breath would be possible without Jesus Christ. So. [00:53:45] Well, I. I have always wondered, you know, this is much more my objective analysis. When someone goes through tough times and they don't have Christ, how in the world can they ever make it? Because just what you've experienced in which you share it, you can do all things with Christ. It's not it doesn't mean that the pain is no longer there, but you can make it through. And so that I'm glad you shared that, because I know that other people are going through some tough times and will. And just what an encouragement. [00:54:19] Your story is for them on that very thing else you'd like to share. I mean, this has been we've been all over the board. Anything that you have to share before you wrap up? [00:54:33] Anything more? No. I would just say be blessed. [00:54:39] It's. That's it. And then it all comes through Christ and. And I want it for everyone. So be blessed. Be blessed. [00:54:51] And if you don't know him, know him and and know that the blessings come. And if you if you do know him, I mean, just be encouraged and in your walk in this life, because I mean, maybe I say life isn't easy and maybe now they can understand why I say life isn't easy. [00:55:10] But I mean, yeah, I would just end with the blessed. [00:55:15] Hey, man. Definitely be blessed. Well, Joanna, this has been really a delight. Thank you. I know you're really busy, especially just coming back from travels and you've got a full load on you. So I really appreciate the time that you've taken out to. [00:55:32] Yeah. Yeah. [00:55:34] I thank you for the opportunity because it is. And it's coming as approaching 40 pretty quick here. And it is it is taking those moments and that and what you can put into people is comes more and more important in life. [00:55:53] So, yes, it does. And all of your love, your comment earlier on, you know, invest in people for eternity, double on your exact words. [00:56:01] But just. Well, thank you. [00:56:05] And for those listening, if you've enjoyed this podcast, be sure to subscribe to it. So you never miss another episode in place like our Get Cellar's calling you Facebook page. [00:56:15] Also, if you want to increase sales from past clients, a sphere of influence, dominate a geographic farm or convert home valuation leads. Check out our Agent Dominator program. We create custom content that differentiates you from other realtors, then use it to keep you top of mind with your prospects with postcards, targeted Facebook ads, email campaigns, video interviews and more. And the best part is we guarantee your sales or give all your money back. Learn more. Get sellers calling EW.com. That's like Agent Dominator in the menu. Thanks for listening to the Get Sellers calling you podcast. [00:56:49] Have a great day. 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Quick show notes Our Guest: Laurie Barth What she'd like for you to see: Laurie's Blog | @laurieontech | Laurie's Egghead Tutorials Her JAMstack Jams: Gatsby Her musical Jam: The Taylor Swift Lover Album | Heather's the Musical soundtrack Other Tech mentioned Jekyll Netlify Transcript Bryan Robinson 0:30 Laurie, welcome to the show. I appreciate you taking the time to talk with us today. Laurie Barth 0:33 Yeah, absolutely happy to be here. Bryan Robinson 0:35 Cool. So So I know that about you, but go ahead and tell the audience who you are what you do for work what you do for fun, that sort of thing. Laurie Barth 0:42 Yeah, so I'm Laurie. I am a software engineer for a company called 10 Miles Squared Technologies in the DC metro area. And we're a small consultancy, so I kind of do whatever is asked of me. And then as part of that role and a little bit, because I enjoyed doing it, I convinced them that, you know, it was okay for me to do it at work as well. I do technical blogging and speaking and kind of community outreach interaction stuff. Bryan Robinson 1:11 Stuff. I was like a good good stuff. Yeah, yeah. Laurie Barth 1:14 Yeah. Like Egghead videos and contributing to some other publications. And if you hear a little jingling in the backg.round, that is our brand new puppy Avett, who is being a bit of a terror right now as she gets used to .. Oh, she just came up right by the side me. Hi, sweetheart. As we get used to our new house, Bryan Robinson 1:32 well, I have a 12 year old cat on my desk right now. So all pets are welcome. Laurie Barth 1:37 Yes, this is the PETjam podcast. Bryan Robinson 1:40 So cool. So what was kind of your entry point into this idea of the jam stack or static sites or whatever you like to call it? Laurie Barth 1:47 I blame Jennifer Wadella. And for those who don't know her, she is the founder of KCWiT and kind of a badass Angular JavaScript front end Dev. And she, I talked to her about, you know, maybe making a personal site, she had a really great one. And she said, here's my code for my Jekyll site like lift, whatever you need, make your own. And I did. And then she transitioned over to Gatsby and kind of spoke the gospel. And I was like, Okay, let me give that a try. And so from then on, I was like, this is the perfect kind of thing for my site. And and that's, that's kind of where I got into the JAMstack worlds because I wanted to be able to throw something up pretty quickly that was going to be performant that was going to have, you know, all kinds of nice dynamic behaviors. But but it didn't need to have all of this full back end content, as it were, Bryan Robinson 2:42 Sure, now you're a software engineer, so you're not necessarily afraid of the back end. So what what kind of draws you to something that doesn't need a back end? Laurie Barth 2:50 I don't have to do the setup of like a bunch of different components, getting deployed into the cloud and deal with like, HTTP back and forth. And all those things like, it's great. And I am do it all the time when it's necessary. But if it isn't necessary, why add all that bulk and nonsense? Bryan Robinson 3:07 Sure. And as a front end engineer, I definitely consider that nonsense in a lot of ways Laurie Barth 3:13 And don't get me wrong. I mean, I, I started in the Java back-end world. That was kind of my bread and butter. And so I've done Python, and I've done PHP, and I've done a bunch of different things. And they have their use cases. And they're incredibly important and incredibly powerful. But if all I'm doing is serving stuff that can exist in markdown, then there's absolutely no reason I need to build myself an API. Bryan Robinson 3:37 Definitely, definitely. And did you have any experience with markdown beforehand? Did you use it like in GitHub or what have you? Laurie Barth 3:44 Yeah, no, in fact, a lot of my site is in YAML. Bryan Robinson 3:49 Yeah, I didn't have a lot of experience. In fact, I looked at and I said, Man, I hate this markdown thing that like a couple of my friends we're talking about and then everything's written and markdown for me now. So... Laurie Barth 3:58 yeah, yeah, I I've gotten really used to it for formatting articles for Dev.to. But I still have not transitioned my site over. Because I'm not actually hosting that much in terms of content, I have kind of a YAML file for my speaking stuff, a YAML file for my Egghead lessons, a YAAML file for my blogs, and then I'm going to make a separate YAML file that's going to be like, external contributor publications, like CSS tricks, and that kind of stuff Bryan Robinson 4:29 Nice. So are you using the JAMStack at all professionally? Or is it all just these personal sites that you've kind of been doing? Laurie Barth 4:36 Um, I've had not necessarily JAM... I guess it's sort of qualifies. I've done some headless CMS stuff, which I think is kind of like, it's using the JAMstack front end and pretending like it doesn't have a back end in a lot of cases even though it does. So little, that's a little bit different. But I kind of think of in the same world, and the other thing I have done is some kind of the gym sack stuff with with an occasional, you know, lambda thrown in there or whatever. That's more. That's more just a few functions to round stuff out. I don't know. I mean, I'm sure you saw it as @sarah_edo's. Or Why do I always say that; Sarah Drasner's write up on kind of an e commerce site where basically she was just using a couple functions to provide that which was great. Bryan Robinson 5:27 Yeah, I'm super inside. I haven't had chance to do that sort of heavy lifting in lambda functions. But I want I want to make a store just from that tutorial. So Laurie Barth 5:36 right, yeah, there's a lot of power there, though. I joked when I was reading through it, and I just joked on Twitter that I'm just going to read a blog post where I explain what the heck the difference between Nuxt Next and Nest is. Because clearly, I know so well, and never get confused. When I see those million identically named things referenced. Bryan Robinson 5:55 I've never once been confused by that. Never one No, no. Laurie Barth 5:59 Definitely. Bryan Robinson 6:00 So so with with that kind of your you got a little bit in the cat professionals that you're using. But have you found that there's been any bleed over from the experiments and the personal site into the way that you do kind of more traditional software engineering? Laurie Barth 6:13 Oh, no question. Um, I mean, for one, the ease of deployment with things like Netlify and Firebase and all of that has a lot of use for our clients in certain cases, especially when they're trying to throw things up quickly, and be able to deploy them kind of consistently. And by themselves without a lot of engineering knowledge, those tools are really fabulous. Laurie Barth 6:38 And a lot of the, the way things are built in the JAMstack, and the fact that you're focused on kind of an insane level of separation of concerns, just because it's it's YAML; it's marked down. A lot of that architecture plays in and JAMstack got me comfortable with a lot of CSS concepts that I I hadn't had to play around with. Thank you grid, flexbox, transitions, all that kind of stuff, pseudo classes and stuff, were things that I in larger behemoth projects that had legacy CSS, and that kind of stuff weren't as applicable. And now that I was able to use them and kind of playground areas. I throw them in, in client projects all the time now. Bryan Robinson 7:23 Nice. Very nice. So so what what is your current like jam in the JAMstack? is a Gatsby or is it something? Laurie Barth 7:29 Yeah, it's Gatsby. Okay, me and everyone else, right. Sure. Yeah. Bryan Robinson 7:33 What draws you to Gatsby, Laurie Barth 7:36 I had my Jekyll site. And that was really easy to port over to Gatsby, there were a ton of tutorials online. And the hardest part about that was getting Gatsby image to work. And ever since I've written blog posts on it, I've contributed to the docs, all of that stuff. So hopefully, that won't be hard for the next set of people who try and set up all kinds of different Gatsby image things Laurie Barth 7:55 So, one of the appeals of Gatsby for me was that I didn't need to know much. I didn't need to know some of the React magic to make it work, at least for the use cases I have. And I actually feel like I've gotten a much better understanding of some of the React component architecture and similar things as a result of being in the Gatsby space. And again, it's one of those you have a personal site, you try things you do them, right, you do them wrong. And you end up dipping your toes into it and and having this playground where you discover a lot of concepts that you didn't necessarily understand before. Bryan Robinson 8:30 Nice. And I've got I've got this kind of this FOMO issue happening with Gatsby because I'm not a particularly strong React Dev. But I love the idea that they have so many plugins already available, and they've only really been around a couple of years. Laurie Barth 8:42 Yeah, their plugin ecosystem is insane. And themes are going to be equally impressive. Bryan Robinson 8:50 Yeah, definitely. And so so yeah, it seems like there's already something for every single use case you could possibly need almost it's almost getting to the point where it's like the early days of like, positive WordPress plugin ecosystem. Laurie Barth 9:01 Yeah, positive being the operative word there. Bryan Robinson 9:05 Exactly. Because it's all it's all developer focused, which is nice. So So what kind of is going to keep you in this JAMstack world? What what's what's, what's the thing that's going to anchor you in here, Laurie Barth 9:16 I am probably going to self host my blogs at some point. And I think there's kind of no better architecture pattern that exists right now for doing that in a lightweight, maintainable way. Bryan Robinson 9:27 Nice. Cool. And so so I know you've got you've got the dog Take care. So we'll we'll wrap things up here pretty soon. Laurie Barth 9:34 Sorry everyone! Bryan Robinson 9:35 Oh, no worries. No worries whatsoever. So So what's your what's your musical jam right now? What's your like? literal jam? So I'm listening to Laurie Barth 9:45 the Taylor Swift lover soundtrack. And the dog obviously. And the Heather's the musical soundtrack. Bryan Robinson 9:53 Really? Yeah. Okay, I didn't even know there was a musical Laurie Barth 9:55 there is it was off Broadway. And it's really kind of a fun, angry rock musical thing. Bryan Robinson 10:00 Very nice. Alright, and so So is there anything that you're doing right now that you really like to kind of promote and boost up? Laurie Barth 10:06 Yeah, I'm doing some egghead videos, I'm doing some blogging and contributor stuff to some publications and obviously writing my own stuff. So if you're interested in anything in the kind of JavaScript front end world and sometimes I write about other stuff. It's all on my site. LaurieonTech.com and a fair amount of it is also I always post it on Twitter @Laurieontech. Bryan Robinson 10:31 Cool. And we'll put both of those in the show notes. So I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with us especially with a new a new puppy. Laurie Barth 10:39 Yeah, for everyone who heard her in the background, she's she's sweet. You can see pictures of her online and maybe it'll be more forgiving of the interruptions Bryan Robinson 10:48 that @LaurieonTech account'ss gonna become a dog account, Laurie Barth 10:51 for sure. No question already there. Bryan Robinson 10:54 Very cool. Well, thanks again. And and we'll go from here. And we'll see online making cool stuff. Laurie Barth 10:59 Thanks so much, Bryan. Laurie Barth 11:00 Thanks. Bryan Robinson 11:04 also want to thank you, dear listener, for listening through the end of the podcast and being sure to go into your pod catcher of choice, whether that be iTunes, the Google Play Store or some third party that I'm not even familiar with, and hitting that like button and leaving us a positive review to let everyone know that this is one of the better podcasts listen to for the jam step. So until next time, keep making amazing things on the web and keep things jammyTranscribed by https://otter.aiIntro/outtro music by bensound.com

3xO, The Triple Option Podcast, 2019 College Football Season, Law Smith, Chad Sweeting, Steve Fantetti Sponsors: Grasshopper TryGrasshopper.com/Sweat Freshbooks GoFreshBooks.com/Sweat Warby Parker Glasses and Sunglasses WarbyParkerTrial.com/Sweat Transcribed by Otter AI https://otter.ai/referrals/AVPIT85N Left Unedited by Law Smith Law Smith 0:01 One we're live on our Facebook page three XO We are the triple option Podcast. I am your host Law Smith, and I'm trying to produce in host and that beautiful guy over there on camera number two or white girth camera. That's Chad sweet, sweet things. Let's do some plugs real quick Sweeting, not sweet things. No, no poor lives, right? Correct. Let's do some sponsors real quick, grasshopper, try grasshopper.com forward slash, like get $50 off a phone line. scalable phone line. You can have an app on your phone that has your business line. Don't have Google Voice. Don't be a job. Roni tried grasshopper.com slash sweat like key sweat. Get in there. You get $50 off and it hooks us up with that's how you that's how you can help the show. You help the show? Maybe we get better guests on maybe get coach Brown. You know, and other sponsors go fresh books.com forward slash let you run your own business. You got your own side hustle. Drop QuickBooks drop zero go fresh books.com forward slash sweat. That'll give you the hook up have a direct deposit next business day. That's what the other two don't do. You know that? Sir. Go sir. I talking to me. Yeah. Did you know that? no direct deposit. Unknown Speaker 1:24 I'm forward slash way. You go there. We get a hook. Unknown Speaker 1:30 Oprah and then Warby Parker Warby Parker. trial.com, forward slash sweat. Don't get ripped off by the big, big, big eyeglass where where you're paying 300 $500 for glasses. Law Smith 1:48 They'll send you five pairs you pick it out if I can find some for my horse head. Unknown Speaker 1:56 forward slash sweat. And then you know we are in the sweat lodge studio sweat lodge Unknown Speaker 2:02 dot studio. Unknown Speaker 2:06 That is my digital agency if you need any nerd help, and if you need any business consulting help from a legal perspective, Fantastic. Unknown Speaker 2:13 Fantastic. Unknown Speaker 2:18 crushing it out in the Unknown Speaker 2:19 field. But fantastic illegal your business are fine. Unknown Speaker 2:22 That's fantastic legal com Unknown Speaker 2:26 now on goodness. Let's Unknown Speaker 2:33 I'm feeling it. I'm feeling good. As I'm trying to find our intro. Unknown Speaker 3:01 Ah, God Almighty. This is triple option. We're back. Weird week because we got to do it kind of. We got to figure out when to do this podcast. Unknown Speaker 3:20 Everybody's kind of messed up. I apologize. Unknown Speaker 3:26 That we said we redo it Monday at one and I pick that one up. I blame it on being sick or working too much burnout. Whatever it is. Chad How you feeling? I'm feeling great man. Unknown Speaker 3:39 feel great. Ready to talk some football? Unknown Speaker 3:44 Saying I think it gives context to the listeners. Sure. Well, I mean, I like to go like crazy. You don't to go by minute by minute but Unknown Speaker 3:51 well, okay, so I should put away my this is my log I was doing this. Unknown Speaker 3:55 entire week. You are an attorney. This isn't an eight hour long podcast, right? Unknown Speaker 3:59 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Chad Sweeting 4:01 Give me all your minutes. Yes. So so no. So as you know, you know, Florida was off this weekend. The big game was Auburn Oregon, which we'll get into a little bit later. your alma mater, Auburn. Unknown Speaker 4:13 So actually Unknown Speaker 4:18 you're busy with your kids and whatnot. But to my Unknown Speaker 4:21 dad, I wanted to. Unknown Speaker 4:23 It's tough if you're places and kids. Unknown Speaker 4:28 And then my former co host of this podcast, Brandon T. Gleason. He's comedian friend, but he's my best friend too. He's in town tells me Thursday. I am coming in town from LA. My wife and I will be in the area where this we recorded this. I'll be there for the FSU game and you're like, Oh, cool. Thanks for the heads up now. I can't get a babysitter. Now. I can't go over to your place. Unknown Speaker 4:50 Yeah, not clear the air but football's about you know making plans and friends. Unknown Speaker 4:58 live here downtown Tampa and we have a pool and see came over in the clubhouse has a pool table and we sat there and watched Florida State Boise was you know got moved to noon for those who don't know it was originally scheduled for South Unknown Speaker 5:16 Korea and it got moved to noon. And Unknown Speaker 5:22 that game was on a seven and then Unknown Speaker 5:28 yeah, and there wasn't a good Unknown Speaker 5:34 Florida State game was a good game. I thought well, it's a force they came out of the gate. Unknown Speaker 5:42 got off turnovers it seemed like they're scoring off at every Unknown Speaker 5:48 job they were scoring on every single play so I kind of Unknown Speaker 5:54 was the score to the very end of the half and it was like 30 Unknown Speaker 6:00 the favored in Boise State Unknown Speaker 6:04 they were seemed like every time they ran the ball Unknown Speaker 6:10 if they had not turned it over Unknown Speaker 6:16 I'm sorry Boise State came back and won. And I am happy about that because in our pixelized all both took I did yeah you take one team I root for him to have right here. The evidence is right here. You took Florida the when I got the W for that one. Really? Yeah. Unknown Speaker 6:42 Second half, and Unknown Speaker 6:48 side like it's like just a methodical kind of EO Yep, six Unknown Speaker 6:56 bye for now Have you heard this story? Unknown Speaker 7:02 DP said that the the problem Unknown Speaker 7:10 getting tired Unknown Speaker 7:14 yesterday Unknown Speaker 7:19 was to say that the one that Unknown Speaker 7:24 commented it today or yesterday Unknown Speaker 7:30 but what scarless it's a shit show there in Florida State That doesn't even make sense as like a way to save yourself from being Unknown Speaker 7:42 no no I was talking about Unknown Speaker 7:46 Yeah, I think Unknown Speaker 7:50 the charger that needs to be fired you know and I feel bad for Steve Unknown Speaker 7:56 well it's been the year Unknown Speaker 8:08 Southern grandma says you know bless your little heart It's kind of like Unknown Speaker 8:14 bless your heart means yes it Unknown Speaker 8:20 but yeah so that that was a good game. Where did you see the Unknown Speaker 8:26 of that boy Unknown Speaker 8:30 Florida State players that Unknown Speaker 8:34 they're all about five yards away Unknown Speaker 8:40 at this ball you haven't seen it Unknown Speaker 8:44 pretty funny I'm not a huge Unknown Speaker 8:48 visual medium and we got Unknown Speaker 8:52 this podcast but I was like Unknown Speaker 8:56 dropped the ball was Unknown Speaker 9:00 I think so I think it was towards Unknown Speaker 9:08 there's one called brass tap down here to franchise Unknown Speaker 9:14 but it was like it doesn't matter if it's a sport Unknown Speaker 9:20 I'm you know everybody's already there Unknown Speaker 9:26 my All right, I think Unknown Speaker 9:32 they're like drunk like little drunk people basically Unknown Speaker 9:39 don't cry really easily Unknown Speaker 9:44 college all over again the freshman year Unknown Speaker 9:50 it was good but if you walk in and say oh everybody's sitting in a pub table eating the IK Unknown Speaker 9:58 so I had to like sit next Unknown Speaker 10:04 fine but it was one of those things where Unknown Speaker 10:08 he unless Unknown Speaker 10:13 I gotta go let me let me Unknown Speaker 10:18 yeah good to catch up I mean that's really Unknown Speaker 10:24 is that kind of reason to beat up? And so I think even if Unknown Speaker 10:32 like you just go Unknown Speaker 10:36 exactly you know otherwise Unknown Speaker 10:42 go to New Orleans you know if I Unknown Speaker 10:46 can put out this pitch from Tuesday all the Unknown Speaker 10:52 way um what else what other Unknown Speaker 10:58 Oregon and Auburn pulls out the win yet Unknown Speaker 11:06 giddy for Unknown Speaker 11:10 now I think when you have kids you decide man Unknown Speaker 11:16 you're watching them I know best. Unknown Speaker 11:21 But it Unknown Speaker 11:26 has Is it coming in with the hype of other years Unknown Speaker 11:34 out there where you're just like I just Unknown Speaker 11:40 been what I I've been telling you Unknown Speaker 11:46 know who this guy is. Chad could do Unknown Speaker 11:52 crush it you murder Unknown Speaker 11:54 rate actually lock me up. pedophile Unknown Speaker 12:00 but the actor Unknown Speaker 12:08 was fine. He just got caught jerking it. I think people think he Unknown Speaker 12:14 but he he just was that adult theatre. Unknown Speaker 12:20 Jared Fogle area Yeah, anyway. Unknown Speaker 12:30 But all Brynn game so a bonus looks like a Unknown Speaker 12:38 like donuts? Yeah, like it's medicine. Unknown Speaker 12:41 Okay, like it's oxy 10 Unknown Speaker 12:42 may cause constipation I'm Unknown Speaker 12:44 just going to get these needs to short it needs Unknown Speaker 12:50 like one word Okay, I like it I like yeah Unknown Speaker 12:56 that are super excited that I'm I get a boner at the gym. Unknown Speaker 13:04 Your mom motorcycle for some reason. Unknown Speaker 13:10 That cool. Unknown Speaker 13:15 Man, he looked like it Unknown Speaker 13:21 by the fourth quarter. really calm down to like Cliff Kingsbury just very chill the high the eyelids are a little bit Unknown Speaker 13:36 nicer kind of thing like that's Unknown Speaker 13:39 he called so much down now. Unknown Speaker 13:45 And I Unknown Speaker 13:50 think in the second half just just Unknown Speaker 13:57 I think it 27 the first half or something like that. Alright, sorry about that. So first off though he's 110 total it was something that was so offset as a fan to watch or a casual fan because it's like you know he's pumping out Unknown Speaker 14:16 they're not like long gains they're just Unknown Speaker 14:20 they're like the but Unknown Speaker 14:24 I think and then Unknown Speaker 14:28 credit for stepping up Unknown Speaker 14:32 but now I'm going to say it like that forever. Unknown Speaker 14:36 Williams the Bruce Unknown Speaker 14:40 brown ball he came back to it adjusted Unknown Speaker 14:47 with five seconds later adjusted on the fly Unknown Speaker 14:52 ball got it Unknown Speaker 14:57 did a great job i Unknown Speaker 15:02 for i think we were Unknown Speaker 15:08 good marketing tactic Unknown Speaker 15:12 or I don't think Unknown Speaker 15:16 extra any better Unknown Speaker 15:20 you know regardless of whether they deserve either yeah but yeah yeah I mean to your point and we always Unknown Speaker 15:28 before those last two touchdown drives Unknown Speaker 15:34 his final stats even with those last I mean I'll give them a lot of credit like for a freshman a true friend Unknown Speaker 15:42 look composed like you said Unknown Speaker 15:46 77 Unknown Speaker 15:51 stats but that fourth quarter that's all Unknown Speaker 15:57 doing like brett farr second year in the second year in green far we like thread the needle run sideways and like throw it into quadruple coverage Unknown Speaker 16:13 like on the left side for him Unknown Speaker 16:18 going on this is gonna be a lot because that I realized Unknown Speaker 16:25 how your year is going to go Unknown Speaker 16:29 the emotional wager that's going to Unknown Speaker 16:33 play a big team or your the marquee Unknown Speaker 16:38 does this throughout this game Unknown Speaker 16:45 this could be a shitty season Unknown Speaker 16:49 this like Unknown Speaker 16:53 that shows a lot of Unknown Speaker 16:57 as a college quarterback and then Oregon Unknown Speaker 17:01 did they play Unknown Speaker 17:05 is it crazy? Unknown Speaker 17:09 I always forget Unknown Speaker 17:13 like a defensive line Unknown Speaker 17:17 guy that's like Unknown Speaker 17:21 McClendon like Unknown Speaker 17:29 Robert Herbert Unknown Speaker 17:33 game that Bob turned up like Unknown Speaker 17:45 this but Unknown Speaker 17:53 you know ESPN does the wind probability and Unknown Speaker 17:59 being on Unknown Speaker 18:03 boys this Auburn did not Unknown Speaker 18:07 so they were Unknown Speaker 18:11 first quarter Unknown Speaker 18:15 for a Unknown Speaker 18:19 little bit because Unknown Speaker 18:23 he is and he's a Unknown Speaker 18:30 break Unknown Speaker 18:35 point be Unknown Speaker 18:39 like 50 Unknown Speaker 18:43 died yeah so Unknown Speaker 18:49 we pick oh and let me know Unknown Speaker 18:53 wasn't that great? Unknown Speaker 18:57 It was kind of sad Unknown Speaker 19:01 we're going to zoom to one more Unknown Speaker 19:09 little bit more this week Unknown Speaker 19:13 when that exciting Unknown Speaker 19:17 bomb but Unknown Speaker 19:21 by three and a half I'm good Unknown Speaker 19:25 yes Stephen Unknown Speaker 19:29 Law picked Oregon Unknown Speaker 19:33 it's not my fan of God Unknown Speaker 19:38 Tim Cook's Unknown Speaker 19:41 three times Unknown Speaker 19:45 so you still lost yeah Unknown Speaker 19:49 brought it up Unknown Speaker 19:57 like it Unknown Speaker 20:05 he's not like Unknown Speaker 20:09 anyway okay Unknown Speaker 20:13 get on next week Unknown Speaker 20:17 USA Unknown Speaker 20:25 to me up very well in Unknown Speaker 20:33 both confirmation Unknown Speaker 20:41 Wisconsin so Unknown Speaker 20:47 Sterling 01 well on the Unknown Speaker 20:59 Jonathan Taylor crushed it really Unknown Speaker 21:07 easily our number one tech and the unfortunate Unknown Speaker 21:21 number one of us Steve USF Unknown Speaker 21:33 I don't want him Unknown Speaker 21:37 big some kind of case Unknown Speaker 21:41 49 to zero Unknown Speaker 21:45 hundred 32 receiving okay Unknown Speaker 21:57 that's a Lamborghini Unknown Speaker 22:01 Not too shabby Unknown Speaker 22:05 think Charlie strong Unknown Speaker 22:09 they got Unknown Speaker 22:13 their calendar right Unknown Speaker 22:21 you're still Unknown Speaker 22:25 like up and coming coach Unknown Speaker 22:31 do this and Unknown Speaker 22:35 this is the first round Unknown Speaker 22:39 you can't get over Unknown Speaker 22:43 project but Unknown Speaker 22:47 all the Pisces Unknown Speaker 22:51 too excited any anything overall Unknown Speaker 22:55 25th in the rankings Unknown Speaker 23:05 mixed teams because they're Unknown Speaker 23:13 the guys that alright Unknown Speaker 23:33 another interesting Unknown Speaker 23:37 in the ranking after oh Unknown Speaker 23:41 that's not feel great. Unknown Speaker 23:45 Now three spots I think Unknown Speaker 23:53 I chose them as Unknown Speaker 23:57 the most David season Unknown Speaker 24:05 here pretty soon Unknown Speaker 24:09 I think the Unknown Speaker 24:13 thing else Unknown Speaker 24:17 game maybe LLC Unknown Speaker 24:21 yeah Unknown Speaker 24:25 john was awesome what Unknown Speaker 24:33 17 Unknown Speaker 24:37 go in Unknown Speaker 24:42 I don't know if they're going Unknown Speaker 24:45 to do the half that's Unknown Speaker 24:49 not look great. Unknown Speaker 24:53 Casual Unknown Speaker 24:57 Yeah, I'm killing mom Unknown Speaker 25:01 like last week Unknown Speaker 25:06 because I picked up Unknown Speaker 25:09 on these two Unknown Speaker 25:13 trying to do that while you were talking Unknown Speaker 25:17 extend to Unknown Speaker 25:21 will text them later Yeah. Unknown Speaker 25:25 So let's go Unknown Speaker 25:30 as you said cleanses Unknown Speaker 25:33 MM I just I Unknown Speaker 25:41 not Unknown Speaker 25:46 know and believe me Unknown Speaker 25:51 that's a good motivator motive Unknown Speaker 25:59 why man I saw with Unknown Speaker 26:03 some shade Unknown Speaker 26:07 at least like Unknown Speaker 26:15 had these guys come in like Unknown Speaker 26:23 surviving the SEC whatever best Unknown Speaker 26:31 than any other program guy Unknown Speaker 26:43 college football Unknown Speaker 26:47 Seattle you know Unknown Speaker 26:55 dad they pay for the rights Unknown Speaker 27:01 there's Unknown Speaker 27:05 Florida State was Unknown Speaker 27:13 gonna say Clemson is gonna win head to head or straight up Unknown Speaker 27:19 tomorrow score game Unknown Speaker 27:23 go to Texas a&m here Unknown Speaker 27:27 no information Unknown Speaker 27:31 ever was going on with Unknown Speaker 27:35 a headphone ears Unknown Speaker 27:39 settled down a bit Unknown Speaker 27:43 football news you know Unknown Speaker 27:51 your mental might as a coach Unknown Speaker 27:55 type to me there's Unknown Speaker 28:00 he's not brought up in the new Unknown Speaker 28:03 you gotta look at what Unknown Speaker 28:08 kind of thing Unknown Speaker 28:11 Michael Lewis Perkins Unknown Speaker 28:15 and the Houston Rockets a Unknown Speaker 28:23 new story Unknown Speaker 28:27 but knows though so Unknown Speaker 28:31 let's go with LSU number six Ellis Unknown Speaker 28:37 star start Unknown Speaker 28:41 six and a half Unknown Speaker 28:49 talking through Unknown Speaker 28:53 if I were a betting man I would Unknown Speaker 28:57 because I think this Unknown Speaker 29:01 that LLC will probably win Unknown Speaker 29:05 not points but it's Unknown Speaker 29:09 I think Joe Unknown Speaker 29:13 YFTD Unknown Speaker 29:18 up until I mean last year up until the Florida game he Unknown Speaker 29:23 does have a great arm like Unknown Speaker 29:31 I talked about stuff in the Unknown Speaker 29:35 site the Unknown Speaker 29:39 I don't see that it's Unknown Speaker 29:44 I guess it's forecasting oh I see it Unknown Speaker 29:49 yeah be hot. I mean LC was no stranger to heat Unknown Speaker 29:55 little bit drier Unknown Speaker 30:00 go ahead and say Unknown Speaker 30:08 I just think that like me to defensive job so Unknown Speaker 30:23 the number nine Unknown Speaker 30:27 you to me Unknown Speaker 30:32 how are they YRY Yeah. In that Unknown Speaker 30:47 and everybody else is a mystery as well. There you go. Unknown Speaker 30:57 Very good. Unknown Speaker 31:02 Ah, let's let's Unknown Speaker 31:09 get that Unknown Speaker 31:13 it's kind of like Unknown Speaker 31:22 the Bearcats Unknown Speaker 31:26 UCLA that is oh yeah boss Unknown Speaker 31:41 just on interested Unknown Speaker 31:45 damn Unknown Speaker 31:50 in the book to Cincinnati's credit they look they look Unknown Speaker 31:56 warning Unknown Speaker 32:00 I'm but Unknown Speaker 32:07 there's another Unknown Speaker 32:11 bad go with Unknown Speaker 32:15 good as I just Brian day Unknown Speaker 32:24 I'm gonna go Unknown Speaker 32:27 points on Unknown Speaker 32:31 it just to be a little Unknown Speaker 32:35 16 points Unknown Speaker 32:40 it's Midwestern Unknown Speaker 32:43 very low scoring it's a 12 Unknown Speaker 32:51 games at 12 that Unknown Speaker 32:55 11am Unknown Speaker 33:00 that goes with Unknown Speaker 33:07 when I was looking at Unknown Speaker 33:16 from my league Unknown Speaker 33:20 in the skill position Unknown Speaker 33:24 yeah so just for fun I'd Unknown Speaker 33:27 be remiss if you didn't want the Unknown Speaker 33:35 next this year I think the last Unknown Speaker 33:39 seller just gotten Unknown Speaker 33:44 like a four week Unknown Speaker 33:48 help and I think Unknown Speaker 33:52 teams on the downside that have been Unknown Speaker 34:00 divided Unknown Speaker 34:04 UT Martin FCS Unknown Speaker 34:08 and Steve's Unknown Speaker 34:12 although it Unknown Speaker 34:16 Don't you think he's going to claim it Unknown Speaker 34:20 though he has no time Unknown Speaker 34:24 and he's like like Unknown Speaker 34:28 know anyone from there if Unknown Speaker 34:35 it's like grown up into Unknown Speaker 34:40 just be a magic Unknown Speaker 34:44 do Orlando and then Unknown Speaker 34:51 that's your origin story. 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You got Unknown Speaker 37:10 we Unknown Speaker 37:14 drink too much. Don't

Today’s SACRED S.O.L. STORY was inspired by my morning workout partner… The Big. Fat. Fly. On the window in front of me. I asked myself, what lesson is in this for me? Change positions. You’ll never get to where you desire to go if you stay where you are. You’ll never be who you can become if you don’t BE YOU. NOW. We’re in Chapter 9: Engagement Four of Date Yourself Well — BE YOU. Today we’re discussing page 77. “Often we Iive our days as a version of who we are, but not necessarily the truest version, or the one that is most complete.” Please grab your SACRED S.O.L. D.A.T.E. JOURNAL (Daily Action To Engage yourself.) TODAY’S SACRED S.O.L. STEP:   Where in your life are you not fully BEING YOU? Are you willing to change your position and get a new perspective on what it truly means to BE YOU? Journal this out… I would love to hear what happens for you... If you’ve been feeling like you’re stuck, overwhelmed, or perhaps you still feel like you’re drowning in your life, please don’t hesitate to reach out. YOU ARE NOT ALONE... Request a FREE copy of my best-selling book, Date Yourself Well — The Best-Selling 12 Engagements Of Becoming The Great Lover Of Your Life (all you'll pay for is shipping.) www.dateyourselfwell.com  ALSO... I’d be more than happy to schedule a Discovery Call with you to see if Healing Life Coaching is a good fit for you. Email me at drshannon@doctorshannon.com S.O.L.| NOT SOLO. If you haven't already joined the movement, you're personally invited to come over to the WOMEN SIPPING ON LIFE S.O.L. MOVEMENT Closed FB Group and Join the MOVEMENT: https://www.facebook.com/groups/WSOLMovement/ I can't wait to meet you there, and engage with you even more! FOLLOW ME ON INSTAGRAM @doctorshannon! See you there... To listen to the song I wrote, you can do so here: letsnottalkaboutex.com, and also cast your vote on your favorite version. Come over to the WOMEN SIPPING ON LIFE S.O.L. MOVEMENT Closed FB Group and Join the MOVEMENT: https://www.facebook.com/groups/WSOLMovement/ Visit WomenSippingOnLife.com for more free resources, including my CHECKLIST FOR CHANGE, Engagement Checklist + Evaluation Rating, Six Sacred S.O.L. DATE Secrets…and a FREE copy of my best-selling book, Date Yourself Well. You can also check out my Dr. Shannon Facebook Page for more daily S.O.L. TRAINING. I look forward to seeing you again tomorrow. Please invite your best girlfriends to come and join our S.O.L. PARTY. xo Dr. Shannon. Inspiring minds that want to grow and hearts that want to know, so you can love you, your life, and your life’s work well. ONE SIP AT A TIME. A special thanks to the following souls for helping me launch our WOMEN SIPPING ON LIFE podcast… Intro/Outro done by UNI V. SOL  Outro music by Jay Man: Mind Over Matter (www.ourmusicbox.com)  Podcast cover design and web site done by: Pablo Aguilar (www.webdesigncreator.com) Podcast cover photo by Kate Montague of KM Captured (www.kmcaptured.com)

A jam packed episode. The first half is focused on the the largest Facebook group known for buying, selling, and trading bourbon and it’s encounter with Facebook staff about rule changes. We cover the news and share the information as it’s presented. In the second half of the show, we are joined by Marianne Eaves as she discusses her departure from Castle & Key and what’s on the horizon for her next adventure. This episode has a little bit of everything. Oh yeah, and a teaser about marijuana with bourbon which you can look forward to hearing more next week. Show Partners: At Barrell Craft Spirits, every batch they produce has a distinct flavor profile. They take pride in blending and preserving spirits for the people who enjoy them the most, you. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order with code "Pursuit" at RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Use code "BOB2019" for discounted tickets to Bourbon on the Banks in Frankfort, KY on August 24th. Visit BourbonontheBanks.org. (Offer good through 6/30.) Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Bottled-In-Bond and Bernie Lubbers. The Next Phase of the Bourbon Secondary Market. Facebook is cracking down. What will be the next iteration of the secondary market? When did you get the news and how did you feel about it? Will this start more segmented smaller groups? Are there any other platforms where the secondary market could exist? How does one have bourbon as a hobby and ensure that he or she is not becoming an alcoholic in the process? Are Sober Bars going to become a thing? What's new with Marianne Eaves? What was the response from other companies to you leaving Castle and Key? Are you interested in other spirits? Have you been trained in other spirits? What's your favorite style of gin? What's next for you? What do you all think about marijuana infused bourbon?   0:00 If by some chance you think that there's some background noise or you think it's being noisy, I'm going to put it on you to hit your mute button. I know last time everybody was talking over top of each other and 0:09 you saying Don't 0:11 talk to me. I don't know what to do. 0:14 The same time. 0:15 Yeah. All right. All at once. 0:20 You're doing now? 0:21 Yeah. Alright, so that didn't work. Well, we'll move on. 0:36 This is Episode 205. of bourbon pursuit. And we only have a little bit of news to go through today because it's the bourbon Community Roundtable, which is all about the news. Of course, the birthday bourbon is out of the gate. It's typically one of the first ones we see and hear about during the fall release season. Well, I guess it's that time because the 2019 edition, the specs have come out and it's going to feature and an 11 year old hundred and five proof expression which is the highest proof to date, a total of 120 barrels, which is still on May 15, 2008, and aged on the second floor of warehouse I master distiller Chris Morris and master taster Jackie's I can who have both been featured on the show previously talking about birthday bourbon selected and proved this year's limited edition, the 2019 old forced to birthday bourbon is going to be offered at an MSRP of 9999. And roughly 13,200 bottles will be available for purchase nationwide. Well, this episode, it's a doozy. The first half of this episode is focused on the largest Facebook site known for buying, selling and trading bourbon. And really, it's kind of a necessary evil because that's how valuations are really how they're created. But this is also a little pretty controversial in the underground sort of bourbon community because people thought there were ulterior motives involved. just want you to know, we try to be respectful and come at this from a very gentle stick approach. We cover the news. And the big news of this week was the letters of the admins that received them from bourbon secondary market, and they got these from Facebook officials. So don't get me wrong. There's still plenty of places on Facebook where you can get your hands on these goods. But this was a very high profile page. So we'll have to wait and see what happens. In the second half of the show. We're joined by Marianne Eaves, as she discusses her departure from castle and key and what's on the horizon for in her next adventure. Like I said, this show has a little bit of everything. Oh yeah. And there's a teaser about marijuana with bourbon at the end, which you can look forward to hearing more about next week. With that, let's hear from our good friend Joe over a barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred Minnick with the above the char. 2:44 Hi, this is Joe from barrell craft spirits. 2:47 every batch we produce has a distinct flavor profile. We take pride in blending and preserving spirits for the people who enjoy them the most. 2:53 You lift your spirits with barrel bourbon. 2:57 I'm Fred Minnick, and this is above the char. The box came into my office like any other box, the FedEx man dropped it off. I cut it open. I ripped it out and I pulled a bottle out. But the excitement that I felt when I saw the bottle was far different than when I usually get a 90 proof bottle or some new product from one of the big distilleries. This one had etched in the label, bottled in bond. It was Catoctin Creek, a rye whiskey out of Virginia. I said it next to other bottle on the bond whiskeys on my shelf. George decal bite on the bond Tennessee whiskey, dad's hat, bottle and bond Pennsylvania whiskey, tomfoolery bottle and bond Cleveland bourbon. It's made in the Cleveland area. And as I looked at these on my shelf, I couldn't help but feel the pride just overwhelming in my soul. You had bottle and bond from Virginia, Tennessee, Pennsylvania, and Ohio. It was absolutely phenomenal. Especially when you consider that 10 years ago, the bottle and Bond was almost extinct. You really only saw about 15 bottles on the shelf and those were mostly from heaven Hill. But as Bourbons started becoming more popular and as ride became more popular, you had one particular brand ambassador who was going around the world telling people about bottle of Bach. He's covered in tattoos plays bluegrass music wears belt buckles, it can tell you anything you want to know about bourbon history. His name is Bernie Lubbers. He's one of these guys that has the passion of 1000 bourbon reps. And that's because he knows his stuff. But more importantly, he believes it. And it's my opinion, that if it was not for Bernie out there discussing the heritage and importance of bottle and bond whiskey, that we would not be seeing George decal on the shelf or Catoctin creek or dad's hat touting being bottled and bought. If you want to learn about that history, check out his website. He's the whiskey professor. He's got a book, I've written about the history of the bottle and Bond Act of 1897. But really, in today's sense, I give all the credit to bottle and bonds return to one man, and his name is Bernie lovers. So if you happen to like buy all the bond whiskey, find Bernie on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram and tell him Thank you. Because if it wasn't for him, and his big giant tattoo on his arm, I don't know if we'd have bottled in bond right now. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, if you have somebody you would like to highlight and above the char hit me up on Instagram or Twitter at Fred Minnick. That's at Fred Minnick. Until next week. Cheers 5:46 Welcome back to episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon. This is the 33rd meeting and podcast recording of the bourbon Community Roundtable. It's this one, it's odd because we usually spend about a a day or two ahead of time kind of thinking of random topics. I always maybe sit there and look at some tweets Fred put out the week before and and see if like that's a makes good for a conversation or a topic. However, today this one sort of came all together like within the span of an hour and a half. It was the bombshell that kind of got dropped in one of the largest Facebook groups and we're going to talk about that here in a little bit. But Kenny's here, Fred and Ryan, join me here as well. How's it going tonight? fellows going? 6:30 Great. Oh, just Yeah. Do you know says that? It's okay to talk. 6:38 Go ahead. 6:40 No, it's funny. You're in your intro. I was thinking I was like, people may or may not know I delete social media during the week. So I normally have no tables are till about 30 minutes for I logged in today on Twitter. And I was like, Oh shit. I'm really behind. What what are we going to talk about? This is insane. So super excited about today's show. 7:01 It's a it's a riddle. Like, how do you piss off at the thousand bourbon enthusiasts in one one post? 7:07 Yep, exactly. Yeah. I mean, it's 7:11 it's interesting. And the thing is, is is like I think I think what's happening can play into a kind of like a larger kind of national conversation as well. So this is you know, and this is important for all of us right now to talk about 7:27 a good I people always like discussions on the secondary market. We don't like to think it exists. But of course it does. That's That's how that's how names get kind of brand names can get spread around. That's how valuations happen. So it's almost like a necessary evil but before we kind of start talking about that, I want to go around the horn as usual. Let the folks introduce themselves and we're going to go with on my left starting with Blake of bourbon 7:53 and he's on mute direction. 8:00 Me You know, I did too good of a job under no, I'm Blake from bourbon are always fun to be here. It's a you know, let's see the 34th bourbon roundtable in a row and the 34th time you've seen my face because that is the Cal Ripken of bourbon roundtable so thanks for having me. It's a 33rd but who's counting 33rd 8:22 that I'm going to be on next next month as well 8:24 yeah, let's see what that magic eight ball says 8:28 all right Brian sip and corn How you doing? 8:31 All right I'm doing great thanks for having me again night guys. Brian with sip and corn you can find me on social all the social media is sipping porn and online you can find all those things and more at bourbon justice calm and in sipping corn calm brings you to the same place. And looking forward to to tonight's conversation guys. 8:52 Alright, and the one of the highest ranking whiskey blogs out there today. Jordan from breaking bourbon, how are you? Good. Thanks for have us. This is Jordan, one of the three guys from breaking bourbon. com, find us on all the social medias at breaking bourbon along with Patreon and make sure to check out our updated Release Calendar update near daily. Awesome. 9:13 So with that, let's go ahead and kind of kick off the show, you know, we hinted at a little bit it was going to be talking about the secondary market. There's a large Facebook group in there, they don't really try to make it sound like it's hard to find it's actually called bourbon secondary market. So there's, there's no mystery whatsoever. But it's typically one of those places that it's a kind of underground, you have to be invited into it. And it's a buy sell trade form. I know that everybody on the call is a member of it. We've all been there before. So and before we kind of get into the meat of the subject I want to introduce Craig. So Craig, I'm going to hopefully don't screw it up again. rubric. Right? has joined us today. So Craig is one of the admins of bourbon secondary mark or bsm. So Craig, welcome the show. Hey, thanks. So Craig, before we kind of get into it a little bit, kind of talk about like how you came to be an admin inside of DSM. 10:11 Sure. Um, so I think everyone knows, the group's founder Oh, and, and through another group that Owen runs, I came to know him, which is the global bourbon hounds. And when you're running a group that size, you know, you tend to when it gets to a certain point, you tend to reach out to people that you trust to help you run it. And so that's that's basically how that happened. I mean, the group existed for I don't know a good year and a half two years before I came on board with the admin team and so that's basically what it was was just someone that would be somewhat level headed I don't know that we get bullheaded I 10:58 hope so. That is the secondary market 11:01 right so 11:05 but yeah, someone although I probably get accused of being one of the more I think with my emotions first type of admin in there, you know, we we try to be fair, it can be a challenge you know, we used to admin under our names in there and then we used to add many and under the bsm page just because guys get they get ridiculous. Their their bourbon feelings get out of control. They they can't contain it in their feelings journal. And so they have 11:46 I didn't create that, that that graphic. Well, I didn't create the actual feelings journal journal, but that was someone else that made that picture. But I do take credit for for putting that into the the bourbon secondary Mark vernacular as the word. So, but yeah, so that's, I mean, that's how it came to be was just, yeah, I'm happy to help out. I think now, whenever we are looking for admin, I think our first rule is, if someone is reaching out if they're actively pursuing being an admin, like, Hey, I love to help out. No, you're not nobody, it's not a good fit. Nobody wants an admin in there. But we're, you know, a close knit bunch of guys and but yeah, we admin from the page just because, you know, guys get crazy, they threaten your family. They threaten your livelihood, it gets ridiculous all over a silly bottle of bourbon. So. So that's, you know, that's that's why that changed, initiated. So today, you know, we have this email come out, that basically says Facebook's changing their community standards are tightening them. And so therefore, or any groups that buy sell trade alcohol, they want to have that activity cease. And so we, of course, had discussions about how that would affect us how we would operate. And so I think that what you're going to find is that the mega balls group, which we also run, for auctions, that's going to get I won't, I won't call it mothball. But we're just not, we're just kind of not going to be adding any map. So I don't have the logistics of that yet. Which Owen could probably speak better to that myself. And then regards to bsm. 13:41 Yeah, as like, let's let's focus on the bsm kind of, kind of what was because I know that's what a lot of people are here, really waiting for is, is what is what is going to be the next iteration. And by the way, for anybody that is just like, totally, like, not have any idea. they're new to bourbon, yes, there's this huge secondary market that exists. There's like 55,000 people in there and people post bottles for sale, people say they'll buy it, and then ends up and shows up your front doorstep. That's what he's kind of talking about this whole buy sell trade thing and this kind of open market that happens inside of Facebook. But Greg kind of talk about what is the, like the new ruling or kinda like the the next iteration of what is to come here, bsm? What's the, what's the go. So I think what 14:26 we're thinking now is that it may go to a straight deal by messenger sort of situation, I don't know that we've fully worked out the logistics of that. And I for myself, I just think, you know, admitting something like that will just be a nightmare. You know, in some ways, it's like a second job already. But I think that will kind of have to see how that plays out. I there hasn't been any, you know, doesn't make sense to go backup Facebook group, because you're under the same restrictions, right, your, your, your backup groups going to get tagged and, and knock down if you're engaging that activity. So right now, you know, what we've read into it is just change your group name. don't have anything in your group description about buy, sell trade, don't do any activity in your group. And of course, it only takes one upset person to direct that. So I think we're leaning towards a PM, a Facebook Messenger sort of based setup similar to us some other groups that are a little smaller than us, and our maybe secret and you got to know somebody to get in there. But used to be ran by a guy named Phil. You know, I think that, you know, certain groups that allow pm dealing and we never did, we are always about just having it done out in the open. So it it may very well likely be a one at from that. When we make a final decision. I know, Owen or you'll see a post via the bsm page will come up and say as such, but I think that's sort of the prevailing thought right now is that we would go to something one fat. 16:22 So Craig, you guys get this news today, what time today, like in the afternoon, 16:27 brown about I think I was just wrapping up with work when I checked my email. And I saw that, and then we started sharing that I think it was a little bit even earlier than that, when I hopped into the the admin chat and saw that there was already some discussion about that. 16:48 So you all you all have, you know, built something that is very much a part of the bourbon culture, especially kind of like the geek culture. And, you know, we A lot of us, you know, kind of look up to, you know, appreciate what you all have, you know, done. And now it's kind of be being taken away, you know, in some ways, I mean, you know, on the personal level, I know, you guys have been through a lot like in managing this, but you know, what were you all feeling when this came through what was going through your mind when, when you guys got this notice? 17:22 I think it's like, well, here it is, right? Like, there's always been, you know, guys have speculated about this sort of thing happening to, to our sorts of groups for for a while now have, you know, Facebook's done similar things with, with other groups that were of a sensitive subject matter that they felt like, we're not in line with their community standards. And so we've always felt like, you know, the hammer was going to fall at some point. And you know, if you remember quite quite a while back, we had that little kind of dust up when when bourbon groups just sort of vanished. And there, you know, Chicken Little came out and the sky was falling then right? And then does it feel different this time? It definitely like before, you didn't know what was going on. And again, you thought the same thing if you thought, well, this is it, you know, the hammer is finally falling. And Facebook has done away with us. And we were scrambling to figure out, you know, other social media avenues to form to do the same thing that we were doing now, this time around, it seems to be it seems a little more more serious, right? Like, there's a plan they're actively searching for, for the sorts of groups that are, you know, not by virtue of being a bourbon group, are you necessarily doing wrong, but whenever you cross that threshold to buy sell trade, then Facebook's not liking that. So? Yeah, it just feels like it may have more weight this time. We're we're treating it more. I think there's some within our ranks that that, you know, feel like maybe wait and see. There's also a little bit of disbelief, right? Like, was this just some, you know, nonsense email that someone has sent trying to troll us? Or, you know, something like that? several folks, even folks that manage large Facebook groups that are not bourbon related, been received an email. So yeah, I think just more serious is is a way to kind of sum it up so enough, that that, Owen and the rest of us feel like we want to react to it, to kind of just, you know, allow this sort of thing to carry on. And regardless of whether it's by Facebook, or not, like a quote, jurassic park here, like life will find a way, right. Like, if it's not hold on to your butts. Exactly. Like if it's not, if it's not via Facebook, you know, you can't keep a good flipper down right there. Right there, they're going to try to talk to their, their bottles of it, eh, Taylor small batch and, and well, or special reserve and, you know, whatever, no matter where they are, whether it's on in a smaller Facebook group, or Craigslist, or, you know, e Bay, God forbid, or what, you know, whatever, like, folks will find a way. So what we haven't talked about is any sort of moving to any other social media format. I think once upon a time we we mess around with a and I'll probably butcher the name may way. Page me we may way, there's actually people in chat that are 20:37 talking about that right now. I I'm unfamiliar with the platform 20:40 myself. Yeah. So we had we had messed around with that, you know, there, the issue you always run into with something like this is a group this size, when you switch over to something like that, like we had kind of sort of work the kinks out of admitting via Facebook. So then you switch to another platform and then admitting via that way, and trying to just figure out all the ins and outs of that is, is a bit of a headache. So 21:10 let's I feel like everyone's already on Facebook. So that's not 21:12 tough thing to 21:15 do just automatic because everyone's on their phone every single day. And so then they just see it 21:19 constantly. And it's just one more channel you got to keep up with when you have so many already. And it's like who wants another channel to mess with? But 21:28 you already have the older generation who's not on Facebook getting on there just for bourbon. Now, I don't even know what me we is. So 21:37 if any don't even know. 21:40 My barometer but migrate everyone over there's trouble. 21:44 No, no, you're totally right. I mean, Facebook is the logical platform for a lot of these kind of things, because that is where people spend their time already. And so Oh, and it sent us a message at least Blake and I a little bit earlier. And so I'll kind of talk about what he had had posted as the potential new rules. This is not official until it becomes official on the forum. But he had said that the kind of the new stuff is that you do not talk about buying selling or trading alcohol, because this is now against Facebook community standards. So that's no longer to be allowed inside the group. You're only here to see pictures, if you want to talk about to the person that posted a picture, then send them a pm. So kind of thinks of the old days of put something up there expected pm to come in as well. discussion posts are still not allowed go over to bourbon or for that, of course, thrown out the plug for you there Blake. But another way around this is that if you want to you just throw a link in to something that you had posted off of Facebook. So if you are posting it on bottle spot or Craigslist, you just drop the link in there, and then people can pm you that way. And that's how they can kind of get get in contact with you with that particular bottle. So it sounds like if there's a will there's a way because it's hard to lose a large majority of people like that, you know, with one fell swoop and then I'll take it another direction to and see what you guys think. You know, of course, will there's a way something's going to happen. And is this just going to start more segmented smaller groups and it's going to be hard to kind of find that that one big big group that was bsm. 23:26 I think as a community like and you know, I've grown tired of Facebook just in general you know, I've been I've been finding other avenues to do you know to buy and definitely definitely just from on a personal level. I mean I I don't enjoy Facebook I enjoy instagram and twitter but you know Facebook to me just It feels like it's it's become kind of like it went from somehow from being fun to like some mandatory you had you had to do you woke up you brush your teeth see check and see who posted a picture about their kid or something it just like in general, Facebook's losing a lot of steam and society is you know, as other platforms are growing, and I think the inevitability here, and I certainly I have an app and development, but I think the the inevitability here is that somebody creates something specifically for bourbon consumers. And frankly, it should be someone on this on this podcast right now. Because, you know, the fact is, is that this shits going to keep happening. I don't know if someone saw Mark Zuckerberg fake Pappy or what but the whole? It just it has. 24:42 What's that? It was me, sir. I always took you as a fake Pappy. Yeah. 24:49 lawyer? Absolutely. 24:51 Well, he knows how to get itself out of it. That's right law saying I can't refill this and sell it. But, you know, it's just this just just going to keep happening. And then they're going to say like, they're going to start regulating your, your private messaging and just, that's what what the fuck ever, you know. I mean, I actually, the last time this happened, I actually spent a lot of time reaching out to Facebook, getting comments from I spoke to people at Facebook. About the last time you know, the last time we had some sites go down and it just, you know, I mean, they played, they played me a fool. They played every wonderful like they fit, you know, they played our government a fool. Facebook just does whatever the fuck it wants to do. I mean, it's it's stills are information. They're just, they're turds. And I hate all of this. And, you know i, that the secondary group, there comes the feeling channel, you know, right. 25:51 Give me Give me my own mean. 25:54 Or, or as my friend Steve Sabin would say, fuck that guy. 26:00 But that's how I feel about Facebook, fuck. 26:03 I think at the end of the day, right, so we're all and he notices with the whole delete Facebook move and see a ton of different long reads on tech blogs or other areas, like people are still going to use Facebook man or walk right, you can't kick it, as Fred mentioned, you wake up, brush your teeth, check Facebook, but like, that's what people realize. You know, you might leave Facebook, but there are society stays on. But that being said, bourbon might leave Facebook, and people will go with it. Because at the end of the day, people want to make money, they're going to go where the money is. So it may be more of an inconvenience, and people might complain about it. But they're still going to go do it because they're going to want to sell bourbon and they're going to I want to buy bourbon and you know, free economy will find a way. So I think it's just gonna be a super convenience. And people complain about it a lot. That being said, about a lot of people just go wherever the money is going to take them, which is the end of the day is what it's all about anyways, right? We're not like talking about a community or like, Hey, you know, checking on each other, it's, I'm going there to make money, I'm going there to spend money, that's all it is. Right? 27:00 Drop, dropping the hammer, 27:02 I kind of the tough part is figuring out Facebook's logic in this. And to me, it's just they don't want the liability. You know, we've talked about this before on multiple different whether it's shipping or just online sales, whatever it is, Facebook doesn't want the liability. So they gotta at least put that out there. What I'm interested to see is, you know, kind of going back to asking, Craig, does this feel different than the times before? Is, is Facebook really going to follow through with this? You know, it kind of does sound like they are and it is a little bit different. But we've been down this road before and then maybe kind of a See See ya a move from them of who knows, I don't know what kind of legal ramifications they'd have. You know, Brian could probably speak a little more to that seems like in the past, there's been a whole lot of other shady or deals happen on like Craigslist, and that kind of stuff. And I don't know if those guys have ever gotten in trouble or prosecuted for for, you know, actual illegal behavior, or at least more illicit behavior. But it will see, you know, it definitely is a big platform. I've kicked around ideas of having having a solution on my site with seal box. But it's just like, there's a lot of issues you have to solve before you jump into that. And Facebook was always just the easiest route, because everyone was there. So that'll be interesting. Next, next couple of weeks, for sure. 28:30 Yeah, it sort of struck me is is and maybe this is just wishful thinking something that all pass that they'll crack down for a little bit. And you have to be doing things through links to bottle spot or direct messages or whatever. And then it sort of flows back into the way it was. I mean, that's, that's my guess, anyhow, I don't I think you're right, Blake, that it's probably a lot of See ya from Facebook. But other than that, it's, yeah, there's the underlying fact that in most jurisdictions, you can't sell person to person on the secondary market. So once they get their lawyers involved in telling them that I mean, that's, that's the road, they're going to go down every single time. You know, your rules, 29:16 rules, 29:18 rules, we make exceptions to the rules, we enforce the rules, and we get paid on at each step of the way. I'm 29:26 honest about it. 29:26 It's the greatest cycle there is in business. 29:29 Exactly right. Yeah. To get paid at every step 29:34 to I've wondered, too, is this going to push it more? Is there a lobbying effort? Maybe is this going to push it more toward like Kentucky's vintage spirits law and is there a push to get it into those retailer hands so that you have some assurances against fakes if you're buying it from a reputable vintage, you know, retailer, 29:57 that's a great point, I actually had this conversation with a friend of mine who's in the, is a really big seller. And I said, it's going to be great for for us because no one knows where to go to get bottles. And you know, and then if you have if yours, if you're a key person, and this in this chain, everybody's going to remember you from those groups, or whatever. And you're just going to call them and so you're going to have, you're going to have more, you know, more buyers from from that perspective. And I'll also say like, I get probably five, five emails a day, and I'm not even kidding, five emails a day of just someone from someone finding something in their basement. And I try to always push them into the legal ways to to sell that. And nobody wants to do that. So that's right. No One No one wants a record of the transaction. Everybody wants cash. 30:53 So just just low ball but keep the bottles here so 30:58 maybe that's what you 31:01 all those emails to me, Fred put an automatic 31:05 inquiring about said ever you get him to? Great Basin him to all of us. 31:10 One of us, right? 31:12 Of course. Yeah. 100%. And then it's like double what the secondary market is, like, was thinking maybe around $4,000 for Pappy 15? 31:21 Because it was their grandpa's and their grandpa? 31:25 So it has additional meaning to them. It sounds about right game of Go 31:29 Fish. 31:30 Yeah. Like the Nigerian prince all over again. So, you know, 31:36 while we're talking about sort of what the next phase of this is, I mean, do you think if there's any other platforms where something like this could live? Or is Facebook, the only one because if we roll back a few years, read it went through the same exact thing. And so Reddit kind of shut down their, their whole entire sales motion. And so when you look at the difference of what you see on Reddit versus what you see on Facebook, it's too opposite worlds, right? It is definitely more conversation focused, review focused, everything like that, versus Facebook, which is buy sell trade, and then you've got a few groups that are kind of like news. You don't really have a whole lot of people putting their tasting notes out there. But do you think if there's anything else have, 32:17 I mean, at the end of the day, right? So both Reddit Facebook, at its core, at least for like the bsm and the Reddit, it's just a V, it's an old school, the Bolton board, that's all it is. It's just an old school forum, if someone just creates a forum, and yeah, it's one more link, you have to go to a new moderator. That's all it is. Right? Anyone I mean, literally anyone watching right now or listening later on, not and do this, you just got to get the masses to go there. But that's literally That's hard. That's all we're talking about Facebook, and not at all was just an only thing. 32:48 The winning ticket here is that there is a there's a paywall to get into, you know, some kind of forum, you know, so you pay 50 bucks to be a member. And, you know, somebody takes on the liability of having the having the forum. And, and the it happens there, you know, and then it's not public, you know, you have to you have to get there, you have high level privacy. things in there, you know, and, you know, I used to belong to a few of those in like author circles, and, you know, I'd be I'd be communicating with, you know, high level authors. And, and there was no, I wouldn't be able to share that information. Of course, it's the internet. So you always could do it, but I would be penalized strictly by the the agreement I signed to be a part of it. So I think there is a way to do this, and we can protect the people who want to enjoy this hobby. But I'll go to the lawyer here in the ass. Is that possible? Could could we create some kind of 33:53 private forum where we get out 40,000 33:55 people in 33:56 there? What can you do? What can you do something like sports, but or gambling? Like, you know, but when I did used to gamble, I had a private website that I went to and yeah, back in the day 34:08 where you would going on? You 34:10 would, you know, you bet your and you'd have your bookie and you would meet him, you know, once a week to settle up. I mean, and it goes on, like all I mean, it still goes on. And so it seems like that could happen for some of these secondary markets also 34:22 means you have an intermediate intermediary 34:25 act like a I mean, it wouldn't be legal obvious, right. But I mean, sports bookies and gamblers are getting away with it. Nobody's cutting them down to shut it down. 34:32 Right. I think that's a bigger market. Much bigger market. 34:36 Yeah. aliens. There. So here, yes. And then that's why I'm not exactly sure. I haven't figured out why there's the focus on the whiskey market here. I mean, it's sure we've got 50,000, or whatever it is members of these groups, but what's that it's a drop in the bucket. It shouldn't really bother anyone. But when it comes down to it, it's in most jurisdictions, you're not supposed to do it. Fuck Facebook. 35:07 So it's Facebook now in the same genre as vodka in the lounge, red manic, a lot of hatred. We need a sign behind you, Fred. 35:20 like Facebook right now, you know, 35:22 Facebook has its purpose, you know? I mean, I don't know, I don't know what that purpose is anymore. But whatever. So vodka, vodka has no purpose. Let's just put it that way. 35:35 So to kind of wrap this up, one last question for Craig, what are you going to do with all your free time now? You know, 35:43 honestly, I was probably over the past few months have been one of the lesser active admins, but you know, it makes for you gotta do something while you're sitting on the toilet. Right. So now I guess I have to go back to reading or 35:56 something like that. 35:58 Wait, wait, wait, did you 36:02 You did all that admitting while you were on the toilet? 36:05 I mean, what else? What else? You gonna do it? Right? 36:12 Well, they weren't accepting donations. So you know, they weren't getting paid for the job. So it's, it's out of the graciousness of their hearts that they were doing. So absolutely. So Craig, thank you so much for coming on tonight and kind of giving us a breakdown of sort of the the history of what it is and sort of the future of what we can expect from the the new bsm going forward. So, again, as of today, everything is still provisional. So wait until you hear from an admin on a forum to kind of see what the, the actual future will hold. But if own or anybody else wants to that on the admin team, they will post the email that Craig was talking about at the very beginning that we were alluded to as well, so they can see that this wasn't just all smoke and mirrors. That was a real thrill threats happening. Alright. 37:02 Thanks, Greg. Appreciate it. Thanks, guys. 37:03 Yep, man. 37:06 So while we wait for Mariana to come on, you know, let's let's kind of switch it in a different direction. But let's go ahead and kind of take it as I mentioned, we had a we had a listener sort of reached out to us and talked about it was actually Patrick Nall. He reached out, and we all have bourbon as a hobby. But the question is, is how can we ensure that we are not becoming an alcoholic in the process? It's Kenny here and I want to tell you about an event that's happening on Saturday, August 24. Because I want to see you in historic downtown Frankfort, Kentucky, at bourbon on the banks. It's the Commonwealth premier bourbon tasting and awards festival. There's live music and over 100 vendors of food, beer, wine, and of course, bourbon. But guess what even will be there in the bourbon pursuit booth. You can check out all the events including tastings with the master distillers that you've heard on the show before and the People's Choice Award for the Best bourbon out there. You can get your all inclusive ticket for $65. Plus, you can join on the free Friday night event. Go and check it out bourbon on the banks.org and through June 30. 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So it is a really a kind of a sad reality of it is you don't want that to ever be a problem for someone who you're enjoying a hobby with. And then all of a sudden, that's an issue. So for me, it's just like taking, you know, whether it's a week, few days, you know, some even go month off of drinking, I think that's really if you figure out if that and that dependence is there, and it's no longer fun, and you're just drinking to drink. So I think that's important to take time off every now and then. 40:46 So I think I'm know, I'm the only one here that does it full time. Right? Jordan Are you full time yet? 40:54 drinker? 40:57 This is like I know, Kenny, you'd said, this is the hobby, this is actually what I do for my living and have done so for more than a decade. And, you know, when I came, I, you know, I'll share something very personal, you know, I, I have PTSD for my time. And in Iraq. And I have been, I've been fighting that for, you know, since I've been home. And in that process, I went through a lot, you know, in my recovery, I went through a lot of therapy. And one of the things that I picked up was was mindfulness. And that and that is one of one of the reasons why bourbon really, why I think I really focused on on tasting was because mindfulness was basically a way for me to ground myself of something else. And you would have to think entirely about whatever it is you were doing, whether you were like you were in a year and a moment you're trying to visualize and feel everything in that moment. For me, I would visualize and feel everything on my palate. And, and when I am not able to taste something, I put the I put it down like in in oftentimes, you know, I won't, I won't be mindful of what day it is. And I'll be like, on a, on a anniversary date of something that happened, it could be you know, it could be, you know, the day that, you know, I saw someone get killed, it could be the day I almost got killed, it can be something like that. But there there are, there are things that in us that we don't always know. But we we automatically get into, you know, bad moods, and so everybody will have something that can give them a sign for when they get themselves in a problem drinking situation. And for me, it's tasting, and it's in particular of like, where on my palate, I taste something. So I would challenge anyone who wants to, you know, explore this for themselves, I would say analyze the moments that you've had, you know, you may have had too much and you did something that you shouldn't have, or you just went too far, I would say analyze, you know what you felt like going into that situation, and see if you can stop yourself from going in that situation again. And so that's just one thing that I do, I also try to like not have, you know, there's tasting, and then there's drinking, my tasting is like analytical, I keep it very, you know, smell it, analyze it, taste it, spit, you know, drinking. And this is, you know, where I can get myself into a little bit of like, you know, having more than two is if I'm watching justified if I'm watching something that I'm really into. And I'm just into that moment, or if I'm reading a book that I'm really into, and I just keep like, you know, pouring, you know, and then I'm suddenly I've got four, you know, so like, it's being mindful of that as well. It's like knowing when you want knowing when you need to stop. And always, always, always have a plan to get home. That's the most one of the most important parts do not get in the car if you've been drinking. And most importantly, the distilled spirits Council has a has a sheet for what is moderating moderation and drinking. And I really try to follow that. And you know, men can drink more than women. But there is there is a an amount and I think turns out to be something like 15 drinks a week for four men. Those are 44:37 fantastic. points. Fred, thanks for sharing. And I think I think to add on to that, right? You touched on a little bit in there. I think everyone's different. Right? So if you feel, you know, to some people to drinks, they'll be they'll be drunk, right? Everyone's body is different. So if you feel that you're drinking all the time, or getting drunk all the time, just because you're only having two, three drinks the night right? When you see other people having 910, 15, whatever, right? That doesn't mean you know, it's okay to justify it. So you'll know your own limits. And don't compare yourself against anyone else. Right? That's the best way of doing it. You know what's right for you? Right? And you know, what's going to be too much. And you're going to know, it's just right. And everyone finds that point sometime in life and just kind of be as friends and mindful of it. But don't don't compare yourself and say, Well, you know, I see everyone else on Facebook drinking. I don't know, eight doubles tonight, right? I only drink four. I'm okay force too much for you. It's too much for you if that that's what you got to keep in mind. Right? Everyone has their own personal limit. And you do have to, as Fred said, just being mindful of that. And that's one of the keys things to do too. 45:43 Did you find that limit when you're selecting a bottle or a barrel a pin hook this past week? Well, we will thankfully 45:50 told people about this first. So me. Yeah, so really quick. So me and Nick went down along with Ryan to select a bottle for break room and single barrel club from Pinnacle. They're looking to Castle on key. So they propose a crazy cool, but kind of crazy, this experience where we worked with their, you know, their master taster that they work with the castle on key to narrow down. They pulled a lot of 40 little over 40 barrels for us. And these are the barrels designated for the single barrel program. And so I'm just going through like three or four, we went through all of them, we drank all the Bourbons. So they did prove them down to 5060 proof, right? And it was a lot of smelling a lot of sensory stuff. Tons of sensory stuff, lots of spitting. So the amount of actual bourbon we drink at the end of the day, what would you say, right? We drink even like two ounces of bourbon. 46:33 If that if that. And yes, I was spitting, I was falling. It was only like two or three ounces in that plastic cup by the new day. And it was a 40% or 52. But yeah, that was like Fred said it was very analytical. Very, you know, we were thoughtful, we were very focused on what we're doing. Like we weren't there just to like, sloshing back. And our motive wasn't to go get slammer or whatever. But mean, I think you just have to know, like Fred talked about, I'm big in mindfulness awareness, like I have ADHD. And I know like, when my mind can kind of take over and send me places. And then when I've had too much, I just my body can tell me like, all right, you need to settle down for a few days, and you gotta listen to your body when you start to, like, ignore that. And you start to like, drink to fight off the the night before, you know, chasing the hair of the dog, you know, that's when I think you're like really going down a slippery slope. And I've had, I've had those days, you know, you go on a bachelor party, or you're a lake weekend or a golf weekend, and you're you're there to party for two or three days. And then like, All right, I'm done for like three or four days, you know, just to clear it up. And then when you can't recognize that I think that's when you definitely need to, to seek some help and find some because there's definitely some issues there. 47:51 Yeah, I don't know the answer. Certainly. But Fred, thank you for your your openness on that. I think that's, that will help a lot of people. Listen, running today and in the other comments about just knowing yourself and knowing when it's time to take a break. So I think that's I really appreciate those 48:10 personally. Alright, so that kind of sparked a topic and kind of went down a crazy little hope we hope we can come back out of this and raise spirits, I guess if you can a little bit. But this is really coming because there was an article on CNN this past week and talked about how investors are looking at alternatives to bars. And there's a maybe it's like a Brooklyn thing like I don't know, where there's these sober bars that are kind of coming up, right, the people are making these craft mock tales, and they still cost you 1012 bucks apiece. But do you see this is like a like a catching on thing? Or do you see this is a 48:55 just a fad 48:56 for so last year, last year, it tells you the cocktail the world, you know, most important largest, you know bar conference, they had a party, lamb grant through a party where there was no alcohol, like the opening party had no alcohol. So this is like a really a really real trend. And they're they're trying to chase 23 year olds don't drink. 49:22 So let's just go ahead, and we'll let Mary Ann's joined us. So we'll, we'll kind of wrap up this topic really quick. So Mary, and we're talking about sober bars if they are actually going to become a thing. So Fred, I'll let you finish up your thought and then will will lead on over to Mary and then 49:39 yeah, the the growth of of like the silver bars and this trend of like, just eliminate drinking. It falls in line with all these efforts to legalize alcohol advertising. And these fraudulent studies that are coming out from a publication called Lancet that is extrapolating minute to minute amounts of data and basically saying, you know, all alcohol causes all kinds of cancers. And so we're having, we're having this basically this frantic health scare. That is it, in my opinion, is fraudulent. And the industry cannot fight it. Like they're losing everywhere they turn. Because you know, there's a new study every week that tells you you're going to get cancer, if you drink alcohol. And the sad part is is every one of those damn studies almost they almost always get recanted. But the fact is that it gets on USA Today wants its air forever. 50:35 Sounds round up. And what I deal with on a day to day basis 50:40 doesn't cause cancer. 50:44 It causes it in California, but not exactly. 50:46 If you think about it, though, there's there's other studies that come out that says, oh, a glass of wine a day or glass of whiskey a day, whatever it is, and then you're going to live to 90, you know, these are and anybody that I Google's it, I think there was a TED talk or something like that, where somebody actually made a fake scientific research study and it got published in like PR news and like all or Newswire and all this kind of crazy stuff. So it was basically a study this be actually show like how false the sort of scientific studies are that that get really blown out of proportion. So it sounds like there's a there's a lobbyist group that's really pushing towards this for to make something like this a reality. 51:29 Yeah, for sure. 51:31 Anybody else have any other comments or thoughts on that before we change directions? 51:34 My only thought is that article that you sent us Kenny the the description of one of those drinks was so god awful that that should kill it in its crack. So I wrote it down and acidic beverage made from vinegar, fruit sugar, and club soda. I mean, that should kill the lemon right there. 51:53 probably use that. You could probably use that for round up. What 51:58 was it? Mix it up, right? 52:00 What's the cocktail mix made out of apple cider vinegar? It's um, where they do the fruit and the apple cider vinegar shrub. Yeah, I mean, it's basically a non alcoholic syrup, isn't it? I could be wrong. 52:10 Sure. 52:14 I'm not a bartender. 52:17 was the worst thing I've ever done in the kitchen. I can buy these from now on. 52:22 Definitely taste better than they smell. 52:25 Yes. Yes. Yeah. 52:28 I was like, I'll use vinegar on like, you know, reheating like pork butts and stuff like that. We don't we do. We smoked smoked barbecue, stuff like that, but haven't really done a whole lot in the cocktails. that's a that's a whole new that for me. That's a hard pass. So with that, let's go ahead and bring on our next guest. So you heard her already. She's been on the podcast before. I think it was like Episode 16. Like way, way back in the day. 52:52 When we we were not very good. We we still suck but I think we're 52:57 less sucky now. Marianne, welcome back to the show. 53:00 Thank you so much candy as a pleasure. 53:03 Yeah. So you know, we love to have you on I know, Fred. Fred kind of thinks of you like, like a little sister sometimes. You know, he feels like, 53:11 like you all went shopping together? 53:18 Yeah. You know, Sir Paul. 53:22 But we kind of want to have you on and kind of talk about, you know, what's new with you? You know, it's not I mean, I think you you made national headlines, right? I mean, it was everywhere the of the separation between you and castle and key. So So kind of talk a little bit about it, and sort of what's on the horizon for you, too. 53:41 Yeah, I, I am really proud of of everything that I've built. And we achieved it at Castle and key. But what I've learned about myself is that I really love making things and building things. And you know, kind of all my startup energy was used in in castle and key to get them where they are. And I'm ready to try some new things. I've been wanting to get into some different spirit categories. Not that I'm going to leave bourbon, and not not permanently anyway. But I want to get some experience in mezcal and rum and we'll see where where life goes from there. 54:20 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think for a lot of us, you know, we were we were all kind of shocked to see the news because we were you had been really the face of the brand for so long. I don't think there was a day that we didn't see on Instagram with you at the distillery or seeing the the gardens or something like that. So you know, definitely we wish them the best of luck and everything that they're doing, and you as well, but kind of kind of talk I know you kind of took a little bit of a break to I you went out west for a few days to kind of regroup. 54:49 Yeah, I knew it was going to be big news when when that press release went out. So I just went ahead and made the executive decision that being in a remote island in the Pacific Northwest. And my my aunt's treehouse, my dad's cousin would would be a good idea. So yeah, I took a few days off and spend some time in winter and getting ready to take a little bit more time off down in Florida right now. And I'll be heading back out west next month. So yeah, some some exploration and travels coming up just to regroup a little bit before I figure out what's next. 55:26 It's kind of talk, you know, I've been in a situation to where we're looking for for new gigs right away, and you kind of need that time away. But what was the response like from other companies or anything like that, where they was like, Oh, crap, she's on the market. We gotta grab it real quick. I mean, did you have any of those conversations pop up? 55:49 Yeah, I had lots of people reaching out to me through the website, you know, some folks just looking to pick my brain for consulting type work. others that were like our Yeah, we've got a brand or we're starting something. And we wanted to know if you were interested in being our master distiller, but I'm not really interested in just getting another job. The consulting part is really interesting to me, I think, you know, my, my expertise in developing products and helping to design processes is something that a lot of folks more so maybe outside of Kentucky could benefit from, you know, learning the authentic Kentucky way of making spirits. But yeah, I really just want to get back into the gears and challenge myself and maybe, you know, learn learn some new things. 56:43 Your opportunity like in other spirits, like as, I wouldn't say, bourbon stagnant for your like, you know, because it's kind of the same thing. Like, there's not much variance or variation you can kind of do with that like, like with mezcal or other spirits. Does that kind of get more creative with? 56:58 I am. I'm just totally convinced that we're not done innovating and bourbon yet, but it just seems like every new thing is kind of a thing, an iteration of something that's already been done. Yep. So I think there's, there's a whole new genre of innovation out there that nobody's tapped into yet. And what it is is inspiration from other spirits, you know, and I have yet to learn everything I need to actually execute that but I think there's there's lots of interesting spirits and lots of unique ways that they create flavor that we can bring back and even though you know, it's this certain set of regulations that make bourbon what it is there's there's there's more to play with. 57:47 Right? And it's not like the bourbon consumers are so open to new ideas, you know, 57:53 with a product offer friendly, so welcoming. 57:58 Sure, our I was like, that's been the bread and butter for a while. So it's, I mean, if you've been trained in that area, or is that something that you're just you're looking to explore 58:09 in what area Miss cows and 58:12 other things? 58:13 Yeah, not Not really. I mean, I worked for brown Forman, which is a global spirits company. It's not just whiskey. Although I did focus a lot on whiskey. I I spent a lot of time in Mexico and out in California making wine they sent me to Belgium to do a few local projects. I I made vodka for them. 58:41 Along with Fred just lost Fred 58:46 he didn't spit it out. 58:51 He was just being kind. 58:54 did say I did right after I did taste it. I did ask you straight I was like, What are you doing? Why do you Why do you drinking vodka? 59:02 Dude, 59:03 yeah, it's a shame that that was the first thing that you tasted that I've made from scratch. Yeah. 59:11 Music is there anything to drink up here? Like we're gonna go to the warehouse next but you got this clear stuff that but 59:21 now you seem to have a real passion for gin. And like, you know, we hung out you know the other day and you know, we were you know, having some a lot of different a lot of different gin cocktails. What's your What's your favorite style? adyen there's a lot out there. Geez, it like gin is a almost infinite world of ways that you can change the flavor. I think that's the thing that's so interesting about it is you can do almost anything. 59:50 my palate, you know, as a bourbon distiller kind of leans towards something that's more balanced. So a London dry. That's like super Juniper forward is not where I tend to gravitate. So like a botanical, more modern botanical style, but doing really unique things. Like I think that the castle in Cajun, well, nothing is super crazier off the wall. It's unique in the way that it's crafted. And that's not my favorite word ever, but just the thoughtfulness of the ingredients and how they're integrated together. 1:00:31 Yeah, absolutely. Since you were talking about consulting earlier, David Jennings of Robert when no one wanted to ask, because you had missed the earlier half of this conversation, if you wanted to start consulting on helping direct the the new urban secondary markets and it's now going under. 1:00:49 I don't know how I can help. 1:00:56 Secondary. Did you ever did you ever buy anything? You ever buy any old bottles on a secondary market? 1:01:03 No. I tried to barter for a couple but never actually got any bites on that. Give me a great VIP tour. 1:01:12 I remember I 1:01:14 remember like, like, this was a long time ago. You were was when you were with Woodford maybe 2013 2014 1:01:24 It was a long time ago. But you were you did bring up like some kind of you know interaction with you and with you and Chris for a bottle. Is that what you're talking about when you were trying to like have a An Evening with with Chris Morris for a bottle that ring a bell? or using one of those bourbon secondary markets? And and you were trying to get people to come to a Chris Morris event? 1:01:55 Is it was it the the old president's choice? 1:02:06 She's the one she she brought up. 1:02:10 Yeah, here remember that? No, this was actually a castle. You know, a lot of folks would have those old castle decanters. Like, like, I'd never seen one before. You know, 1:02:21 for however many hundreds of dollars. 1:02:26 I don't really want to give you money. But if you like to come out and take a tour, Hillary, we can probably work something out. 1:02:34 And everybody always wants money. Mary. 1:02:38 I understand. 1:02:40 So last question. Miriam. Before we we ask one more question, then we'll kind of round this out. So for you, I know you talked about wanting to do consulting but kind of picture dream job. So here, would you like to start at something smaller and help build that up? Kind of like a you know, Catholic? He was kind of big? Let's be honest. That's a pretty massive place. 1:03:01 Looking at perfect size, perfect size? Yeah, we definitely need 1:03:06 it or would you rather go to a large corporation? You know, if it would be the heaven hills, it would be the Maker's Mark of the world, whatever it is? Or would you just like to just keep doing the consulting and bouncing around and, you know, Mark night, he please put me putting you in some tough shoes to fill here and said, Marian, could be the next day pickrell with a question mark. 1:03:28 I what, I definitely think that his passing lifted a gap in the market. So as much opportunity is this comes from that I would be grateful for I've had lots of various brands reach out. I think, you know, I'm just gonna leave myself open to the universe and see what what happens. And I don't want to say for sure, you know, and I 1:03:56 will or won't, you know, build my own someday, I think then 1:04:03 I would love to be involved with with people who are passionate and want to make good stuff. And if they turn into large brands, that's cool. If they want to keep them small and boutique, that that's fine, too. 1:04:16 Sorry. And just to have it on the record, this means you're open to pursuit spirits 1:04:23 whatever you were saying earlier will make it happen. 1:04:30 Marianne, I'll say like, you know, 1:04:33 I I've talked about you know, many times often in defense of abuse, sadly, you know, when people bring up you know, the master distiller role and everything, and, and I just don't tell you, you know, you can do anything, you know, you're, you have, you have incredible you have incredible, you know, smarts for this business, you haven't you have an ability to market, you know, for marketing and everything as well. And that's rare. And, you know, when you came out and chose to take the title of master distiller, you became a hero for a lot of young women. And there were there were women in their 50s who looked up to you after that, and, and I know that you had a lot of, I'm sorry, there's there's a chat going on in our in our group. Our, our, we've been, we've been banned, you've been named, but you you can marry and you could do anything. So whatever. Whatever it is. You want to put your mind to you know, I hope it's I hope it's bourbon. I hope you do stay on bourbon. I think you have a talent here. 1:05:55 For God's sake, stay away from vodka don't 1:05:57 don't take your talents 1:05:58 to god yeah. 1:06:02 Word of word in your in your opening statement was flavor. Yeah, just remember that let that be the driver dreams. 1:06:10 And always that cordial Fred 1:06:18 should go with a flavored vodka is 1:06:22 you guys are horrible. 1:06:27 So that was a good way to sort of wrap this up. But I do have because we always end up having way more comp topics to talk about. And I kind of want to do this one real quickly. Also, to kind of trail on what Fred said. There was somebody that spammed our chat going on it was sexy, triple x asking to people to click on links for cheeseburgers and booze. 1:06:49 And it's like is Jordan Jordan Jordan put in here like maybe we should have her on next time? 1:06:55 seem cool. cheese burgers, like the link unfortunately. 1:07:03 I was so confused when that pop up because I wasn't following the chat. And I'm like what? Who's sexy? 1:07:11 Why am I not in the chat right now? 1:07:16 I was doing my best not to lose it. 1:07:19 So speaking of cheeseburgers and booze here this was a question that Fred had put out on Twitter this past week and would you drink a marijuana infused bourbon? Go ahead. What do you think 1:07:32 only if it had real weed in it? 1:07:34 Yeah cuz let's let's before there was a lot of back and forth before like 1:07:37 of like it just 1:07:38 they put THC in know, like, we're 1:07:41 putting like the real deal in here. Like we're not doing this whole like you know, hemp bullcrap. Whatever it is, like let's go let's go all in here. And also people are going there they're kind of pissed because they're like it's not bourbon then if it's infused like we get it Okay, like like we know it's new category people just want to they really got a harp on it. But I guess the question is, is reefer bourbon Are you in or out? 1:08:05 So if anyone's had sharp Bay Have you already had it? 1:08:10 is using hops the 1:08:16 man I don't know, man. Margot. He's dropped a little ganja up. 1:08:21 There might be a little bit more than hot. Yeah. 1:08:24 Yeah. If it gives the same effect. Yes. I'm all in. Thank you. 1:08:28 Please. Somebody said yes. Because I say yes. Yeah. You know, 1:08:34 I'll go the hybrid route. Okay, 1:08:36 since I haven't added there's a there's a bar in New York you asked for a dragon and he get

It is finally here. The last episode of Game of Thrones ever. And Brotherhood Without Manners is here with their reactions.    Join us as we start by giving a quick recap of last week's "The Bells".  We read out a few listener emails and answer some questions raised. Then we dive right in immediately after watching the episode. We give a rundown of what occurred while giving our thoughts on each scene. And now our Watch has ended.  We give our episode inductees and prepare for the Series wrap up episode!   All Music credits to Ross Bugden INSTAGRAM! : https://instagram.com/rossbugden/ (rossbugden) TWITTER! : https://twitter.com/RossBugden (@rossbugden) YOUTUBE! : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kthxycmF25M   Season 8 Episode 6 The Iron Throne begins 11:07   0:00:00.530,0:00:07.649 ready yeah I'm moving you bookmark uh-huh cuz that's where I want to read 0:00:07.649,0:00:15.929 yo no how am I gonna find my page who cares I care your cunt your a big cunt 0:00:15.929,0:00:21.559 ouch town population you dude 0:00:35.629,0:00:40.879 ayo hi everybody welcome to Brotherhood without Manas we are normally your full 0:00:40.879,0:00:45.829 spoiler read podcast with George RR Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series but today 0:00:45.829,0:00:53.839 we're talking about the TV show Game of Thrones the last fucking episode ever I'm Zach, I'm Nate 0:00:53.839,0:00:58.909 that's Nate that's me and we're about to be watching the last episode of Game of 0:00:58.909,0:01:02.809 Thrones ever to air on television besides the spin-offs yeah but those 0:01:02.809,0:01:05.570 were not counting that's not have thrown some won't be given thrown so that'll be 0:01:05.570,0:01:09.080 named something else well alright elitist chill out holy shit 0:01:09.080,0:01:12.590 it's just that they're gonna be titled something different so obviously before 0:01:12.590,0:01:20.030 we get into this week's series finale we wanted to cut it out laughs yeah rehash 0:01:20.030,0:01:23.420 we had some great listener write-ins which if you want you want to hit 0:01:23.420,0:01:28.159 Twitter first and and give us the lowdown on Twitter's we had some people 0:01:28.159,0:01:33.020 writing in to us about the bells and lots of feelings about the bells lots of 0:01:33.020,0:01:39.649 feelings about so we specifically we had Matt will see at Aries God FF wrote in 0:01:39.649,0:01:44.930 he was you know pretty much on board he thought that the episode was great loved 0:01:44.930,0:01:49.659 the season so far and he gets the various criticisms you know similar to 0:01:49.659,0:01:54.229 most of our complains yes you know with just everything being a little bit 0:01:54.229,0:02:01.359 rushed but what are you gonna do so he did make the nice comparison between 0:02:01.359,0:02:07.429 grey worm and how he part of the reason that the the masters kept the unsullied 0:02:07.429,0:02:13.790 away from women was because they had the potential to lose that unsullied aspect 0:02:13.790,0:02:19.220 of them by forming a relationship similar to how the Jedi felt with Anakin 0:02:19.220,0:02:23.810 Skywalker and absolutely great comparison yeah good catch appreciate 0:02:23.810,0:02:30.530 you bringing that up yeah so we also heard from the not-so-silent sisters 0:02:30.530,0:02:37.489 this week who have quite a bit to say about the bells but we'll just touch on 0:02:37.489,0:02:41.030 their various good points here they began by saying putting aside the 0:02:41.030,0:02:45.769 writing because they do have some issues there the visual is the music the acting 0:02:45.769,0:02:51.680 all superb this episode was phenomenal in that in what is that 0:02:51.680,0:02:57.379 it's called the technical department the production quality quality I guess those 0:02:57.379,0:03:00.560 yeah all the all the things that come together that the the main complaints 0:03:00.560,0:03:04.849 and that seems to be the case with a lot of you know most of the people that are 0:03:04.849,0:03:08.989 complaining heavily out there is its it they they don't like the writing and 0:03:08.989,0:03:16.370 while we're not on the you know fuck D&D life and everything you know we can 0:03:16.370,0:03:19.609 understand if people are disgruntled with their writing not that it's 0:03:19.609,0:03:24.349 necessarily bad yeah I can't write as good as they could so well they uh yeah 0:03:24.349,0:03:27.889 so the they throw out the production quality was just great they and they 0:03:27.889,0:03:33.019 also point on and I know you haven't but they mentioned Westworld and the way 0:03:33.019,0:03:37.459 Ramin Djawadi I always fuck over the last name yeah I had come message them 0:03:37.459,0:03:41.780 back and mentioned some stuff about that it has a pretty similar scene it's funny 0:03:41.780,0:03:47.060 because it was right after this episode that Zack and I were talking about how I 0:03:47.060,0:03:51.620 haven't seen Westworld and he made me watch a few scenes that were accompanied 0:03:51.620,0:03:57.349 by Rahman's music specifically like watch this badass scene this is Robin 0:03:57.349,0:04:00.709 and you know I've had even though I haven't seen the show I have his the 0:04:00.709,0:04:05.620 west-world soundtrack you know all wrong yes just work so we completely agree 0:04:05.620,0:04:14.840 underrated composer doesn't get nearly enough for his work they also they're 0:04:14.840,0:04:19.519 they're not too pleased with with Danny and well I I agree it does feel rushed 0:04:19.519,0:04:23.180 with Danny I think that's why I'm looking forward to the books like 0:04:23.180,0:04:26.720 because the books are we're really gonna get that descend if she goes met 0:04:26.720,0:04:30.800 completely mad if she goes that far we'll get to see it and it'll make a 0:04:30.800,0:04:34.490 little more sense but they do point out and I caught this as well because I 0:04:34.490,0:04:38.270 remember when we were watching I said that she just looked pretty ominous 0:04:38.270,0:04:42.050 sitting on her throne but they point out that in the scene where Danny tells 0:04:42.050,0:04:46.610 Tyrion the next time you fail me will be the last time you fail me that the way 0:04:46.610,0:04:51.620 she's perched on the on the throne gave off major Joffrey vibe yeah and and I 0:04:51.620,0:04:57.289 hundred percent agree watching it yeah watched it but there is a casual slump 0:04:57.289,0:04:59.750 nasaan the thrown that is just very off-putting 0:04:59.750,0:05:02.930 yeah he definitely nailed that catch because I didn't notice it the first 0:05:02.930,0:05:08.230 time but once they pointed it out and I rewatched it it's definitely noticeable 0:05:08.230,0:05:14.030 they so I wanted to mention that they agreed with you know are you killing it 0:05:14.030,0:05:20.990 and then the sad send or part yeah good stuff and then they've got some some 0:05:20.990,0:05:25.910 inductees yes they they gave us some inductees from the bells episode which 0:05:25.910,0:05:32.360 we appreciate yes so first was Afton yeah and she was inducting the little 0:05:32.360,0:05:36.530 girl that stood against the pillar in King's Landing is fire and chaos erupted 0:05:36.530,0:05:40.730 around her that's such a good one what that's one of my favorite images from 0:05:40.730,0:05:43.550 that episode too is that little girl with a little bit a little splash of 0:05:43.550,0:05:49.010 blood on her face just terrified and Brandi has chosen to induct the pale 0:05:49.010,0:05:54.380 mayor which how you have to lose handily absolutely great inductees we welcome 0:05:54.380,0:05:57.770 them they welcome them to the sisterhood we welcome them to the Brotherhood and 0:05:57.770,0:06:01.850 we welcome all of you to also send in any inductees you would have but thank 0:06:01.850,0:06:06.500 you to the not-so-silent sisters for sending us yet another insightful great 0:06:06.500,0:06:13.669 pointed email and so yeah my feelings haven't changed too much um I'm more 0:06:13.669,0:06:17.600 just dealing with the fact that this is the last Sunday we're ever gonna get 0:06:17.600,0:06:22.930 together yeah and see Jon Snow and Tyrion Lannister and Daenerys Targaryen 0:06:22.930,0:06:28.010 with that in mind what do you if there's one thing you're hoping to see tonight 0:06:28.010,0:06:33.050 what are you what are you hoping and hoping I don't even like I don't have 0:06:33.050,0:06:37.280 yet that's it look I I've been getting asked a lot in this pen I I'm hoping for 0:06:37.280,0:06:45.080 a game of Thrones worthy cliffhanger um sort of thing where I don't I'm okay 0:06:45.080,0:06:49.700 with them not hand-holding us and giving us this definitive and I know everyone 0:06:49.700,0:06:54.680 has heard the fucking words bittersweet in regards to this ending I'm not 0:06:54.680,0:06:59.900 talking about just bittersweet like I I want a good like holy shit type thing 0:06:59.900,0:07:05.750 but this is the last episode so there is gonna be no conclusion so if it can be 0:07:05.750,0:07:09.800 done right and I don't want it to be wishy-washy or cheap or just uh you know 0:07:09.800,0:07:14.430 oh no like who did it like type thing it's got to 0:07:14.430,0:07:18.570 be poignant it's got to be good it's got to make sense in the story obviously I 0:07:18.570,0:07:21.750 know a lot of people think that this season hasn't made sense at all in the 0:07:21.750,0:07:29.880 story but I digress I I would love one last and you and I sort of talked about 0:07:29.880,0:07:36.480 it that maybe maybe it's something like we find out that and obviously this is 0:07:36.480,0:07:40.080 the show and the show has gone so far off the rails at this point not a bad 0:07:40.080,0:07:44.100 way to me but that this was just a crazy theory but we were talking about what if 0:07:44.100,0:07:48.210 the White Walkers aren't done and just by killing the night king you didn't end 0:07:48.210,0:07:52.140 that threat well that's right we landed this cycle that that night King is just 0:07:52.140,0:07:56.730 one of many more night kings okay and so maybe that maybe it'll end with bran 0:07:56.730,0:08:00.090 having a vision up into the heart of winter and having to take a trip and 0:08:00.090,0:08:04.800 there's about himself in a train the wall and do the same thing and the cycle 0:08:04.800,0:08:08.490 continues because Danny didn't break the wheel everything just kept on happening 0:08:08.490,0:08:12.270 the way it did and while that I tell a lot of people the night King felt 0:08:12.270,0:08:17.340 anticlimactic maybe that's their reasoning boat is yeah he really because 0:08:17.340,0:08:22.950 he's not the figurehead he's not the be-all end-all of it what about you you 0:08:22.950,0:08:27.600 had any you know wants wishes I wouldn't you want to see through to the end I 0:08:27.600,0:08:31.980 would really like to see Arya go west I leave LA I know it's I don't think 0:08:31.980,0:08:36.660 it's been her primary goal in the show well she did she did mention it to lady 0:08:36.660,0:08:41.760 crane yeah and so it would be it would be cool to see that happen I I what I I 0:08:41.760,0:08:46.710 suppose what I hope is more that I don't want to see her go to Gendry I just well 0:08:46.710,0:08:52.290 honestly like what else would our you do besides go west 0:08:52.290,0:08:57.000 unless she dies I in staying true to character and you can bitch at me all 0:08:57.000,0:09:00.300 you want that the character development has been shit this it's a season I don't 0:09:00.300,0:09:05.250 think it has it's not an arias character to go to country they made that a point 0:09:05.250,0:09:10.650 like they made that a point she if she runs to storms end dragon stoneware 0:09:10.650,0:09:16.020 dragon stone storm's end storms end not dragons own them storms end if she runs 0:09:16.020,0:09:19.620 two storms heading to Gendry that's a complete destruction of character 0:09:19.620,0:09:24.420 because she's made it very clear so the only thing I see left is either she dies 0:09:24.420,0:09:27.540 try to take Danny down or doing a 0:09:27.540,0:09:31.949 retaliatory attack or Danny or she goes west 0:09:31.949,0:09:37.050 because what's west west yes so I could see some some kind of you know Gendry 0:09:37.050,0:09:41.720 taking the throne type deal allowing the north to be the north oh I wouldn't be 0:09:41.720,0:09:46.619 upset if the Seven Kingdoms became Seven Kingdoms again mm-hmm you know that'd be 0:09:46.619,0:09:50.459 kind of a cool ways that separate ways yeah all of a sudden you know what Sansa 0:09:50.459,0:09:53.730 was very upset about this thing will keep the king in the North well everyone 0:09:53.730,0:09:57.779 gets their own territory let's be friends and just rule ourselves and yeah 0:09:57.779,0:10:01.410 that's that but you know I don't really know it's gonna be it's gonna be fucking 0:10:01.410,0:10:07.769 wild so it's gonna be the end and it's happening very shortly very very shortly 0:10:07.769,0:10:13.949 so I yeah there's not much else to say there's this is it this is the last 0:10:13.949,0:10:18.839 episode so we'll be doing we'll be back here in just a few minutes well four 0:10:18.839,0:10:23.220 seconds for you guys but after tonight's episode there's gonna be a little bit of 0:10:23.220,0:10:28.529 a break for show related content yes and then we're planning on having a big 0:10:28.529,0:10:33.209 entire series wrap up episode where we're putting a lot of thought into 0:10:33.209,0:10:38.459 we're gonna kind of get some some cool things to discuss so be ready for gonna 0:10:38.459,0:10:41.610 be a wait for it but yeah that will be releasing and we'll keep updating you 0:10:41.610,0:10:45.929 obviously and we'll be back here in just a few minutes after having seen the 0:10:45.929,0:10:51.360 series finale of Game of Thrones gonna be my pants yeah I can handle this 0:10:51.360,0:11:03.659 business 0:11:07.750,0:11:18.200 hey everybody so we just finished we just finished the episode the last 0:11:18.200,0:11:22.579 episode of Game of Thrones that we're ever gonna get moments ago 0:11:22.579,0:11:30.709 I'm still pretty shook I'm still pretty shook off I have a Varrick hair in my 0:11:30.709,0:11:32.740 mouth 0:11:33.670,0:11:39.950 holy shit so I can say right off the bat that I don't know how I feel about this 0:11:39.950,0:11:45.829 episode I know that I'm okay I liked it it didn't ruin anything it's not the 0:11:45.829,0:11:51.470 Dexter ending where the whole show is ruined for me I know that more than any 0:11:51.470,0:11:57.170 other episodes this one I'm gonna have some nitpicks with but for the over yeah 0:11:57.170,0:12:04.370 I think my biggest issue just right going into it what what did John's our 0:12:04.370,0:12:08.149 Creole II mattered like the whole Targaryen lineage I know 0:12:08.149,0:12:15.140 to create the tension but I think I kinda yeah didn't matter okay so he's 0:12:15.140,0:12:21.829 Jon Snow Aegon Targaryen he's he's the outcast he's not if so yeah that's if 0:12:21.829,0:12:27.110 that's the point that I'm okay with it but it that just that stood like kind of 0:12:27.110,0:12:32.089 made trip me up a little bit well I watch it again at the moment I'm I'm I'm 0:12:32.089,0:12:36.260 thrilled no besides just that I'm thrilled with everything else so jumping 0:12:36.260,0:12:40.610 into it they gave us the countdown to the series finale at the beginning yeah 0:12:40.610,0:12:46.100 that was which was pretty intense and anxiety right then we got the opening 0:12:46.100,0:12:49.760 credits for the last time which are great this season and we opened with 0:12:49.760,0:12:55.010 Tyrion walking through the the fucking The Rock our nation and that that was 0:12:55.010,0:13:03.110 just such a haunting image Jon in Davos children saw like the horse that got the 0:13:03.110,0:13:06.380 little girl that had the little toy horse and we thought like there is a 0:13:06.380,0:13:12.350 pretty brutal like kid that was not what the guy was like yeah the dude that was 0:13:12.350,0:13:18.020 all burn it's just fucked up all my stuff so tyrion wants to go off on its 0:13:18.020,0:13:23.560 own he does we get a fucking amazing SPAC drop there of like the collapsed 0:13:23.560,0:13:31.010 brown tower with behind the back part of that was the red key yes destroyed and 0:13:31.010,0:13:35.600 so tyrion makes his way down this this was a scene I did not expect to give me 0:13:35.600,0:13:39.380 a bike and when he saw that little flicker of light because there were 0:13:39.380,0:13:42.649 theories that maybe jaime and cersei were alive and I didn't believe but when 0:13:42.649,0:13:47.449 you saw that flicker light I was like oh shit maybe and then he digs through the 0:13:47.449,0:13:52.130 rubble pile and he finds him and that just fucking got me all right like so 0:13:52.130,0:13:55.819 quick into the episode and I was gone too and I mean and then he like we get 0:13:55.819,0:14:01.190 the shot we get he uncovers I'm quite a bit I'm hugging ya gonna hurt and I 0:14:01.190,0:14:05.029 think like he should I don't even think it's just for Jaime there he saw a girl 0:14:05.029,0:14:11.000 awesome his family that he wasn't able to save them any of them yeah and so he 0:14:11.000,0:14:15.800 he we then we get John who's he's going to talk to the Queen so he's walking 0:14:15.800,0:14:19.959 through the city and he comes upon grey worm and they've got a bunch of ladies 0:14:19.959,0:14:25.130 and grey worm gives the order there they're put to death and John very Ned 0:14:25.130,0:14:28.339 Stark very funny that stark grabs him and it's 0:14:28.339,0:14:32.270 like no what are you doing and he says you know we're doing this big by order 0:14:32.270,0:14:38.120 of the Queen and I was like Davos is pleading like look around you friends we 0:14:38.120,0:14:44.209 won what are we doing right now like this is nonsense so John says go talk to 0:14:44.209,0:14:50.600 the Queen and John does and as soon as John Slayton it throat so I noticed in 0:14:50.600,0:14:55.010 the I suppose it's a nitpick but grey worm as soon as he slipped the throat 0:14:55.010,0:14:59.360 put his dagger back in its little sheath on his belt then he steps up behind the 0:14:59.360,0:15:03.860 other one like he was gonna slit its throat mm as if there was a purpose for 0:15:03.860,0:15:08.329 putting in a girl wait but and then yeah so we get the the shot of John walking 0:15:08.329,0:15:12.380 through the Dothraki pushing its way through the Dothraki way through the 0:15:12.380,0:15:16.820 unsullied and somehow yes they keep so clearly time a little 0:15:16.820,0:15:20.630 bit of time is bad yeah yeah John made his way through the city a great worm 0:15:20.630,0:15:25.880 went straight to Danny and yeah we get John going up these steps to the burnt 0:15:25.880,0:15:31.100 charred remains red key and that Targaryen banner hanging off the side of 0:15:31.100,0:15:35.840 it and we see Danny approaching from it so this is after the drug on comes 0:15:35.840,0:15:40.640 flying up overcast on John stops on the stairs and then drogon flies around and 0:15:40.640,0:15:45.980 lands in the key because it gives that fucking amazing scene where she's 0:15:45.980,0:15:50.450 walking in the dragon wings spread about that yeah when when John cuz John's 0:15:50.450,0:15:53.300 coming up the stairs at right as he crests the top of the stairs we get 0:15:53.300,0:15:55.580 Danny you see Danny's walking toward him as 0:15:55.580,0:16:00.470 well and then it yeah it flips behind her quick and we get that shot and then 0:16:00.470,0:16:04.640 it flips back and rogue on behind her spreads his wings and it looks like 0:16:04.640,0:16:08.930 they're coming from her it was an amazing shot drogon takes off and yeah 0:16:08.930,0:16:13.550 then we get the shot of Danny standing there the Targaryen banner and the 0:16:13.550,0:16:18.260 Targaryen banner was so fucking sick hanging on the destroyed Red Keep and 0:16:18.260,0:16:23.270 she makes a speech to the Dothraki and then solely John goes and stands by her 0:16:23.270,0:16:30.320 side as does grey worm green yeah she tells the Dothraki you you tore down the 0:16:30.320,0:16:34.520 the Knights in their stone houses you gave me the Seven Kingdoms you did 0:16:34.520,0:16:37.460 everything you said you would but we're not done 0:16:37.460,0:16:42.620 we need to free the people and so everywhere now in it it's almost it's 0:16:42.620,0:16:47.510 crazy because it almost seems like the indie wrote these fucking episodes this 0:16:47.510,0:16:52.190 fucking week cuz everything that I've been listening to people bitching about 0:16:52.190,0:16:59.480 the last few episodes like they just had they had to be patient yeah because they 0:16:59.480,0:17:04.400 she starts saying you know we liberated the slaves from the slavers we we 0:17:04.400,0:17:10.280 liberated marine we liberated these places now she's claiming she liberated 0:17:10.280,0:17:14.209 Kings yeah when she said that in my head I was like what the fuck is there left 0:17:14.209,0:17:18.470 to like who's liberated right and so at this point they're painting yeah they're 0:17:18.470,0:17:24.410 maybe showing that she feels that anybody who served Cersei that if they 0:17:24.410,0:17:27.620 truly wanted to be free just like the slaves 0:17:27.620,0:17:33.380 would have up and up and walked away they didn't so they didn't truly believe 0:17:33.380,0:17:36.410 in Danny so she liberated the ones that are so 0:17:36.410,0:17:41.210 she keeps going for yeah you know past the Summer Isles the GIC Winterfell 0:17:41.210,0:17:46.130 don't repel the Dorn's Lannisport to Qarth you know we're going all over the 0:17:46.130,0:17:50.840 man world and then the Dothraki love it and they're having it and then she took 0:17:50.840,0:17:55.309 what she turns to grey worm and makes him master of war yeah and the Dothraki 0:17:55.309,0:17:58.730 are all for it doing their little spear Slammy Slams 0:17:58.730,0:18:03.020 and then Tyrion walks forward and i legit thought Tyrion was gonna kill her 0:18:03.020,0:18:06.860 here I do too I thought he had a dagger because he was so broken over his 0:18:06.860,0:18:10.580 brother and sister and the anger on his face but he walks up he takes his place 0:18:10.580,0:18:15.230 near Jon he watches his speech and then he walks up to her and she just says 0:18:15.230,0:18:20.360 that you freed your brother and he says yeah I freed my brother and you 0:18:20.360,0:18:25.910 slaughtered a city and he takes the P rips a pin off and Chuck's it fuck and 0:18:25.910,0:18:31.670 like this is why I love Tyrion man because that like he believed in her and 0:18:31.670,0:18:34.490 that was the first thing he ever believed in ever 0:18:34.490,0:18:39.320 and just how devastated he is by this that symbolic taking off of the pin 0:18:39.320,0:18:44.480 because when she put it on him he cried it meant so much to him that someone he 0:18:44.480,0:18:49.820 believed in so much wanted his advice and wanted his wisdom and she just 0:18:49.820,0:18:55.730 soiled it all and yeah he Chuck's it and she tells the unsullied to take him and 0:18:55.730,0:19:00.500 they do and so then I thought right here that jon was going to kill to him that 0:19:00.500,0:19:05.360 because I he he gave Tyrion gave John a little look as he was walking out and 0:19:05.360,0:19:09.860 that meant that all the guards had left Danny and grey worm had left Danny and 0:19:09.860,0:19:13.760 instead they're walking away and Jon just lets them pass and he's watching 0:19:13.760,0:19:18.770 them and then does this little pan view and fucking Arya is next yeah yo that 0:19:18.770,0:19:22.400 was fucking fuck yeah Danny skirted out of there quick she didn't have anything 0:19:22.400,0:19:25.760 to say to John so she kept going and yeah it does that pan and all of a 0:19:25.760,0:19:31.309 sudden Arya is there and John is just as shocked as the audience is but he 0:19:31.309,0:19:33.470 basically tells her you know what the fuck you're doing here get out of the 0:19:33.470,0:19:37.100 city meet me by the gate and Arya is trying to talk some sense into him you 0:19:37.100,0:19:42.840 know know what you can't no one's gonna vow to your queen you 0:19:42.840,0:19:46.950 really think Santa's gonna bow to your queen and that's the start of John's 0:19:46.950,0:19:51.809 awakening to sort of what Danny is and what he needs to do but yeah I think at 0:19:51.809,0:19:56.970 this point John goes down to Tyrion cell and John's pretty fucking defeated at 0:19:56.970,0:20:01.649 this point yeah I mean he just watched his queen who he had hope and faith in 0:20:01.649,0:20:06.029 you know he had fallen in love with her just slaughter this city and yet they 0:20:06.029,0:20:09.690 cover the coming tear nest if he brought wine which he didn't in turns upset but 0:20:09.690,0:20:14.399 then they just kind of covered the whole gambit of Tyrion loved her too and I 0:20:14.399,0:20:18.330 well that's it that was that glance because Tyrion really breaks it down and 0:20:18.330,0:20:21.809 this is again that stuff that the writers you know everyone said old was 0:20:21.809,0:20:25.200 rushed well now they're flushing yeah like just because that's not the writing 0:20:25.200,0:20:29.340 style you're used to and they're explaining he goes into the details of 0:20:29.340,0:20:33.269 all the places she's liberated and how those well like that was that was 0:20:33.269,0:20:37.470 absolutely brilliant where he said she she kept defeating everywhere she went 0:20:37.470,0:20:41.909 she defeated these evil men these evil men died and we cheered her when she 0:20:41.909,0:20:47.669 thought that what she was doing was right and so now and it's that that's it 0:20:47.669,0:20:52.289 this is a believable slide where she has been told that what she's doing is right 0:20:52.289,0:20:59.129 for so long so long now she believes that there's no vision she knows she'll 0:20:59.129,0:21:03.509 by planting that specific seed in his mind cuz she that's gonna come around 0:21:03.509,0:21:08.460 here in just a few minutes and it's just it's a really like John is crying in the 0:21:08.460,0:21:12.960 scene and Tyrians pretty weepy in Tyrians basically saying asking him 0:21:12.960,0:21:16.889 would you've been on a dragon you've had that power which you have torched the 0:21:16.889,0:21:21.809 city and John says I don't know in the typical John but Tyrion I know like you 0:21:21.809,0:21:25.980 know what you get no and so again that's what makes me think like it seemed it's 0:21:25.980,0:21:29.490 almost like these were written in the last few this episode was written in the 0:21:29.490,0:21:34.289 last few days with the response from everybody towards the writers where 0:21:34.289,0:21:38.429 they're just straight up like this is exactly what and it makes sense yeah 0:21:38.429,0:21:43.799 it's not this crazy outlandish thing she believes what she's doing is right she's 0:21:43.799,0:21:50.000 liberating those who won't don't want to serve by killing those that refuse to 0:21:50.000,0:21:54.419 you know stop supporting Cersei yeah in Tyrion straight-up tells them basically 0:21:54.419,0:21:58.170 that she gotta go and you've pretty much got to 0:21:58.170,0:22:02.910 be the one to do it because well that's right and so he John gets up to leave 0:22:02.910,0:22:08.460 and that Tyrion gets desperate he says you have to choose now ya feel like this 0:22:08.460,0:22:13.860 is the time that's it there's no yeah if what's gonna happen to you you're the 0:22:13.860,0:22:18.690 one with the biggest threat right now to her claim like you don't have much time 0:22:18.690,0:22:25.620 think of Ned Stark like you need to act at this point and John leaves and he's 0:22:25.620,0:22:31.230 had when we get certain fuck her name Danny is looking at the throne finally 0:22:31.230,0:22:38.010 yeah we get bhajan it's way worse than her there's a whole much worse she 0:22:38.010,0:22:43.050 completely went bug shit on this and I think I do think that is intentional 0:22:43.050,0:22:48.450 they they specifically showed us brands vision of the dragon fed I think that 0:22:48.450,0:22:51.809 they know the house of the undying one was something people were expecting when 0:22:51.809,0:22:56.970 Danny got there and I think that it's meant to reflect just how Savage it's 0:22:56.970,0:23:01.080 gone yeah how much devastation there is where in the vision to any could have 0:23:01.080,0:23:05.880 taken it with minimal force but if she see like it's almost like the vision if 0:23:05.880,0:23:10.860 she just went after Circe instead of the city and then this is what it is now 0:23:10.860,0:23:14.880 this is what taxi city yeah so she goes off but she's really looking at it and 0:23:14.880,0:23:18.240 she get we get that tense moment when she goes up and finally she manages to 0:23:18.240,0:23:22.320 it's real at that point for her like she's she's done it she's got the time 0:23:22.320,0:23:26.190 you know I really liked this shot because over her shoulder you see her 0:23:26.190,0:23:29.280 grabbing it you see John start to materialize 0:23:29.280,0:23:33.780 and in very dark days I think I even whispered it during the episode that it 0:23:33.780,0:23:40.590 just a Tyrion was asking John to become his brother the Kings lighting slay and 0:23:40.590,0:23:47.760 take that that title but at the same time na John looks like Ned walking in 0:23:47.760,0:23:54.090 on Jaime when he's up there just staring at the throne and that's it technically 0:23:54.090,0:24:00.450 as John has the better claim so like it's that it's yeah this I mean again if 0:24:00.450,0:24:05.400 you claim that writing I just I don't agree because the symmetry of that just 0:24:05.400,0:24:09.570 that scene alone John walking into the as Danny's approaching it with what 0:24:09.570,0:24:16.049 Tyrion has asked John to do on his mind with Ned Stark on his mind just and who 0:24:16.049,0:24:20.700 he is and just so yeah fuck's up behind her 0:24:20.700,0:24:24.240 Danny turns handy and he doesn't even get the chance to say well like it's 0:24:24.240,0:24:31.710 wrong this is this like hats off to Emilia Clarke because this hurt walking 0:24:31.710,0:24:37.590 they neared me the way she turned around and was joking and was like hahaha I 0:24:37.590,0:24:42.270 expected and I think this was a book readers not but I'm a tower when they 0:24:42.270,0:24:46.020 said it to the thousand blades of Aegon's enemies I expected it to be this 0:24:46.020,0:24:50.160 long towering thing you had which in the books if you're not a book follow over 0:24:50.160,0:24:56.790 Shane you know well alright well they'll get there it's okay the the Iron Throne 0:24:56.790,0:25:02.340 is this colossal massive thing it's actually like ten times the size of what 0:25:02.340,0:25:08.730 we see and it is this jumbled mess with like this rickety staircase leading up 0:25:08.730,0:25:13.320 to it of swords like it's massive and so she makes that joke and she's just 0:25:13.320,0:25:16.860 smiley and it creepy show also just like you 0:25:16.860,0:25:20.880 hats off to Emilia Clarke when she was first looking at the three yeah yeah her 0:25:20.880,0:25:27.450 face just the desire that's I mean re yeah all of it all the years all the 0:25:27.450,0:25:31.950 pain ever since miss saris was little with her telling her these stories about 0:25:31.950,0:25:36.809 this throne that they will have and it's finally come to fruition tear it is in 0:25:36.809,0:25:41.280 her grasp she's literally touching yeah so she she can gets right up with John 0:25:41.280,0:25:46.919 and is he's begging her to pardon teary hardened carrion he we need to start 0:25:46.919,0:25:52.080 doing mercy and she said you know you've had to do this to people who have 0:25:52.080,0:25:55.410 treason you know coming to treason behind your back and even if it broke 0:25:55.410,0:26:00.570 your heart we have to do this and he's saying no like mercy is our way and she 0:26:00.570,0:26:06.000 just basically starts saying that our way is the way she said you know she 0:26:06.000,0:26:10.919 says join yeah join wit like join me yeah she's like you're good you've 0:26:10.919,0:26:15.360 always been good you know good so we get to make those show we get to decide 0:26:15.360,0:26:18.630 what's good know and then she finally he says well what about the other people 0:26:18.630,0:26:22.020 who think that things good another she says they had a choice 0:26:22.020,0:26:26.400 they don't get to choose yeah and then that's what that's the moment of it yeah 0:26:26.400,0:26:31.320 well that's what Tyrion was saying where she thinks she knows what is right like 0:26:31.320,0:26:35.429 it might is right type thing with Voldemort yeah and the Ministry of Magic 0:26:35.429,0:26:40.470 like and so my way or the highway basically like so are you gonna join me 0:26:40.470,0:26:45.840 and he's and you know forever and always my queen basic yeah John is fuckin weepy 0:26:45.840,0:26:49.710 at this point and they he says you will always be my queen and they start 0:26:49.710,0:27:02.669 macking it hard and hearing yeah just yeah John kills Daenerys through the 0:27:02.669,0:27:06.960 heart I think oh yeah it looked like it was right there and he lowers her down 0:27:06.960,0:27:11.760 he's devastated by it we hear the shrieks of drum yeah dragged on 0:27:11.760,0:27:19.080 immediately I don't think it was pissed I think he was upset well like yeah 0:27:19.080,0:27:25.260 heartbroken just he knows and so yeah he pulls around yeah it's a great scene of 0:27:25.260,0:27:29.250 them in this destroyed throne room john langdon and i really like that it wasn't 0:27:29.250,0:27:34.020 like this long drawn-out she doesn't have this monologue she's dead yeah she 0:27:34.020,0:27:40.080 sees like it occurs to her that he just did what he did yeah and then she dies 0:27:40.080,0:27:45.360 like that's it and yet John's devastated drogon Lance and lint in the throne room 0:27:45.360,0:27:51.270 and he checks Danny out justice sad nuzzle I got a man yeah it was pretty 0:27:51.270,0:27:56.520 sad and then you looks pretty pissed at John and he back use his head up and you 0:27:56.520,0:28:00.540 see the flames kick up and he just blasts and I knew he was gonna do it 0:28:00.540,0:28:05.429 well he first he goes around the window and then he lights again and just 0:28:05.429,0:28:13.169 destroys the throne which supposedly only balerion the dread had flames hot 0:28:13.169,0:28:17.880 enough to forge the Iron Throne yeah the fact that drogon can melt it is pretty 0:28:17.880,0:28:22.860 impressive i I thought that yeah but it was it was a fantastic scene great 0:28:22.860,0:28:27.150 symbolism for the show yeah just the melt it's definitely something that I 0:28:27.150,0:28:31.110 think we've even discussed before that we expected to happen a lot of people 0:28:31.110,0:28:33.870 have thought that drogon himself would be melting the 0:28:33.870,0:28:38.760 throw that it was a pen so actually it's just kind of fucking dumbstruck me like 0:28:38.760,0:28:41.940 lightning we got the scene before all this we got the scene of john 0:28:41.940,0:28:46.200 approaching drogon in the snow yeah well that was more him just going 0:28:46.200,0:28:49.260 up to approach Danny drogon was laying in front of the door 0:28:49.260,0:28:53.670 block yeah but then John turn and when well like went up to him well yeah I 0:28:53.670,0:28:56.520 know drogon was giving him the okay to pass 0:28:56.520,0:29:01.230 well like that was drogon I like was drugged on picking up on what John 0:29:01.230,0:29:06.510 wanted like with I don't I don't think so he's being like nah fuck this thing 0:29:06.510,0:29:11.580 like this is the cause of it all no personally I think it was just that he 0:29:11.580,0:29:16.350 was laying outside the door because he trusted John he let him in and not that 0:29:16.350,0:29:20.790 he knew that there was gonna be any kind of repercussions is honestly regardless 0:29:20.790,0:29:23.970 food was I don't think he would have allowed it to happen if he knew that 0:29:23.970,0:29:26.670 that was gonna happen well ya know I'm not like I'm not 0:29:26.670,0:29:31.080 thinking that drogon was expecting something bad I'm just saying that maybe 0:29:31.080,0:29:35.990 he was because John it's a dark area and John had some connection with him so 0:29:35.990,0:29:39.929 when Danny was dead it wasn't that drogon was angry it was said he was 0:29:39.929,0:29:44.460 picking up on John's emotions and realized that John blamed the throne for 0:29:44.460,0:29:49.140 it John hates this thing more than anything else so maybe drogon sort of 0:29:49.140,0:29:53.700 like imprinted on the nearest Targaryen yeah and was then picking up what John 0:29:53.700,0:29:59.580 was feeling which was dread at killing Danny and that he has to leave yeah that 0:29:59.580,0:30:02.760 like that like nothing no one should be here anymore 0:30:02.760,0:30:06.690 right so I just thought maybe John and Drogo we're having a moment there well I 0:30:06.690,0:30:10.800 yeah the further that like John thinking that the dragon is too powerful for 0:30:10.800,0:30:13.980 everyone it needs to leave forever and that's why because then it's good 0:30:13.980,0:30:21.150 doesn't suit and he leaves and I really like that it's clutch and I hate to even 0:30:21.150,0:30:25.950 Dexter yeah yeah this is how I go this is how you should've dice is how you do 0:30:25.950,0:30:32.309 it well this is how something rides off into the storm dead yeah dead and yeah I 0:30:32.309,0:30:36.390 thought that was very good yeah I carried off by her last dragon her child 0:30:36.390,0:30:40.290 was the one who know it's where and yeah that'll get brought up again a little 0:30:40.290,0:30:44.730 bit where's where's drogon he actually knows but it doesn't really matter 0:30:44.730,0:30:47.160 and so yeah john is just left in this broken 0:30:47.160,0:30:52.260 melted Iron Throne and yeah I was like fuck what what happens now do they are 0:30:52.260,0:30:56.850 they gonna be like oh he killed it he has to claim he gets to do stuff and 0:30:56.850,0:31:01.350 then we open on Tyrion in his cell and I immediately noticed his beard had grown 0:31:01.350,0:31:05.070 but I thought I was confused because I thought that John would have been taking 0:31:05.070,0:31:09.330 control and would have been freed by now but well so he gets led by a grey worm 0:31:09.330,0:31:14.490 up a gnat and we get taken to the dragon pit and here's this pavilion of all the 0:31:14.490,0:31:18.750 High Lords of Westeros and know up here for a minute I was laughing because I 0:31:18.750,0:31:22.050 was like oh like cuz I thought John had control at this point so I was like oh 0:31:22.050,0:31:28.470 did John just like let Tyrion sit down there just be the same thing I thought 0:31:28.470,0:31:32.160 that he was gonna have like the trial now yeah oh well he did your betrayer so 0:31:32.160,0:31:34.620 we're gonna do the trial but John's not there either 0:31:34.620,0:31:37.860 no the unsullied have taken control of King's Landing 0:31:37.860,0:31:46.110 and they have prisoners so Santa bring Arya forth 0:31:46.110,0:31:51.420 yes Hansa brought Northman down thousands of them and Samwell Tarly is 0:31:51.420,0:31:56.880 their admiral yeah yeah we have this good fucking powwow that like doesn't 0:31:56.880,0:32:00.600 have the bitchiness of Cersei so it actually Kasim means to be 0:32:00.600,0:32:06.960 productive and yeah fucking everyone say even ah yeah Robin Arryn Robin area yeah 0:32:06.960,0:32:15.180 Adam you totally just all yours no there was the the dude who was just trashed 0:32:15.180,0:32:19.320 dressed in Dornish garb which yeah I think they know it stop spending - yeah 0:32:19.320,0:32:25.590 they don't even try so yeah so grey worm is very like he he watched John dead 0:32:25.590,0:32:31.770 yeah he wants justice and and they like that so we get the the exposition here 0:32:31.770,0:32:36.450 that they all know John killed Danny everyone knows John killed Danny and so 0:32:36.450,0:32:40.170 yeah the unsullied took him prisoner and which I actually found surprising I 0:32:40.170,0:32:43.860 figured the unsullied would it just had all these orders to kill all the 0:32:43.860,0:32:46.620 Lannister men he kills Danny taken prisoner 0:32:46.620,0:32:52.200 yeah but whatever you know and so yeah they're discussing what to do and we 0:32:52.200,0:32:57.810 kinda realize like we have no well Yara I liked that she was backing Danny he's 0:32:57.810,0:33:00.540 like no kill him fuck that fuck Johnson what 0:33:00.540,0:33:05.130 Aria was like say that again about my brother and I will come over there and 0:33:05.130,0:33:10.380 slit your throat and like those two fighting like are you in fuck Mario and 0:33:10.380,0:33:24.720 sorry yar yar your name is something like that anyway so it ends up leading 0:33:24.720,0:33:29.310 to them decide well even tyrion like cinterion i think says like give it like 0:33:29.310,0:33:35.310 let your king or queen decide and they're like Jose and so Edmure Tully 0:33:35.310,0:33:40.200 steps up to the plate as soon as he did it I was like I'll please no so 0:33:40.200,0:33:44.340 similarly I also think this had to do with a bit of the writers saying you 0:33:44.340,0:33:47.730 know what fuck you guys yeah cuz a lot of fans were like oh we're dead where is 0:33:47.730,0:33:51.630 that where where is that and so he steps up and he's gonna be the one - oh we're 0:33:51.630,0:33:57.600 gonna give the throne to Eddie's uncle please sit down please sit down 0:33:57.600,0:34:01.440 and then he fucking he bumbles for a minute he looks at Sam Sam everyone's 0:34:01.440,0:34:06.090 avoiding eye contact cuz he basically yeah I would like to be Kings I think 0:34:06.090,0:34:10.169 he's trying to be gracious about it but he's just failing and Sansa tells me sit 0:34:10.169,0:34:15.960 down then yeah she does like bumbles with a sword he's like hittin the 0:34:15.960,0:34:25.050 talking and so then we get the tyrion has his exposition well admir said looks 0:34:25.050,0:34:29.310 at you and says i bet you want it and Tyrians like nah like I've made so many 0:34:29.310,0:34:33.570 mistakes and half the people want me dead because I said where I Danny the 0:34:33.570,0:34:43.080 other Sam well also gave the democracy often what the small people Fogle the 0:34:43.080,0:34:49.320 bitch they're not quite that Tyrion starts giving this great great yeah I 0:34:49.320,0:34:54.060 didn't actually anticipate it to go this way I did now but I am so okay with the 0:34:54.060,0:34:58.470 way that they built it and they well he started and and like it was I think just 0:34:58.470,0:35:05.010 I'm gonna be watch this scene forever because it's such a good show old man 0:35:05.010,0:35:09.840 it's all about that's it yes the stories we tell the stories we keep reading that 0:35:09.840,0:35:13.760 they line us and so with that in mind we should 0:35:13.760,0:35:18.290 brand the broken who went north of the wall isn't special time to tower 0:35:18.290,0:35:22.760 survived me fall from falling from the tower going north of the wall coming the 0:35:22.760,0:35:26.510 three-eyed Raven coming back fighting the battle a long long night 0:35:26.510,0:35:31.280 coming like all these things he we know he doesn't want it we know he doesn't 0:35:31.280,0:35:37.640 care but he's the one he's a member he is the past let him lead us yeah 0:35:37.640,0:35:43.270 so we won't repeat it it's and that's slowly but surely everyone agrees and 0:35:43.270,0:35:47.720 fuck yeah like I'm so what fear in a spray and you know if we offered it to 0:35:47.720,0:35:51.200 you would you take it in Brent says why do you think I came all the way back 0:35:51.200,0:35:55.430 here yeah and so and well then the the reason I 0:35:55.430,0:36:00.200 was really fuck yang is Sansa stuck to her guns this whole dancin and she turns 0:36:00.200,0:36:04.310 to him and says I love you brother and like good for you but the North is not 0:36:04.310,0:36:09.950 kneeling ever again we do not kneel we will be interns as the North will be our 0:36:09.950,0:36:14.750 independent nation we will not be part of the Seven Kingdoms and grants it and 0:36:14.750,0:36:19.460 grant he gives him the nod and then Tyrion says to brand the broken first of 0:36:19.460,0:36:26.120 his you know name leader of the six kingdoms yeah and fuck that was cool 0:36:26.120,0:36:33.290 yeah and everybody everybody agrees and Tyrion says well uh somebody says I 0:36:33.290,0:36:38.150 can't member who specifically but says that brand Oh grey worm says brand camp 0:36:38.150,0:36:41.390 because brand won't be able to father children that type of thing and that's 0:36:41.390,0:36:45.680 exactly that's exactly what they want from this day forward no longer will 0:36:45.680,0:36:49.850 Kings be chosen by birth they'll be chosen by the high lords and ladies here 0:36:49.850,0:36:54.890 in this exact place so Tyrion is establishing this sort of voting system 0:36:54.890,0:37:00.110 it's not all the way that people yet but and so bran says perfect but you're my 0:37:00.110,0:37:05.120 hand yeah Andy calls Tyrion his hand there and gray worms like no no no we're 0:37:05.120,0:37:09.500 he's here to seek justice and he goes what do you think I just did he's going 0:37:09.500,0:37:13.100 to be now spend his he's gonna spend the rest of his life fixing the problems 0:37:13.100,0:37:17.540 that he's created yeah what worse life can you think of Tyria doesn't want it 0:37:17.540,0:37:20.930 fights it a bit but doesn't really have a fucking choice and then I think it 0:37:20.930,0:37:27.410 goes to Tyrion visiting John in the cell yeah just right just like that 0:37:27.410,0:37:33.799 and he's telling John that the only way to make things work was by sending John 0:37:33.799,0:37:36.289 to the wall yeah the unsullied wanted dead 0:37:36.289,0:37:41.180 and obviously son said are you want him freed the only real compromise that 0:37:41.180,0:37:45.380 brand could come to would be John lives out his life at the wall he can father 0:37:45.380,0:37:51.349 no children take no wife hold no lands or titles yadda yadda yadda the whole 0:37:51.349,0:37:57.099 mutant and so John says they there's still a Night's Watch and Tyrion says 0:37:57.099,0:38:02.930 we're always gonna need a place to say send the bastards the cripples and the 0:38:02.930,0:38:11.150 broken which is the people that he in bran for which came out this past Monday 0:38:11.150,0:38:18.619 he says to Robb Stark that he has a soft spot in his heart for the bastards 0:38:18.619,0:38:24.369 cripples and broken in the show well you know whatever 0:38:24.369,0:38:34.069 yeah and so Jon Snow is freed and we get tyrion then setting up what appears to 0:38:34.069,0:38:38.480 be a small council meeting as he's adjusting the chairs and taking Tywin's 0:38:38.480,0:38:42.049 a custom spawn just seeing tyrion sitting at that hand of the king table 0:38:42.049,0:38:48.559 or the yeah the the kings councils chambers hand a king table seat thing 0:38:48.559,0:38:54.890 and in King's Landing ready to help govern it was just a trip and then we 0:38:54.890,0:39:01.269 get the Lord's coming in we get sir bran yo sir Ronald by Lord of Highgarden and 0:39:01.269,0:39:07.640 Floyd paramount of the south is that paramount reach the reach and then we 0:39:07.640,0:39:14.119 get the and master of coin and master of coin we get Sir Brienne I don't know 0:39:14.119,0:39:20.660 remember sir mushi master of law or something like that I believe or justice 0:39:20.660,0:39:27.829 or I don't think you I said it yeah cuz I just forgot that it was and then ships 0:39:27.829,0:39:34.380 we have stirred avos Davos and Harley or archmaester was he grandma hey 0:39:34.380,0:39:39.900 grand yeah yeah and so cheery it's got this little squad and then in comes fran 0:39:39.900,0:39:44.940 and basically brian the only thing Brandt asks is if there's been word of 0:39:44.940,0:39:50.550 drogon and sam sets if he was seen flying east and braun says you know good 0:39:50.550,0:39:54.510 the further away the better and brad says maybe i can locate them you all 0:39:54.510,0:40:00.480 focus on the rest so i i'm upset that it's the last episode because i really 0:40:00.480,0:40:07.020 wish we got more bran and Samwell Tarly because bran kept interrupting or joking 0:40:07.020,0:40:10.830 about everything Sam with the engine and you could tell that Sam didn't know what 0:40:10.830,0:40:14.640 to do with any of it Sam brought the book in the Song of Ice and Fire 0:40:14.640,0:40:18.930 yes and the only thing that upset tyrion was that he wasn't mentioned which is 0:40:18.930,0:40:24.930 the funny way that's bullshit yeah it's always those monsters man the fucking 0:40:24.930,0:40:29.880 overview and so yeah we get this crew this in Jos er pod comes up in 0:40:29.880,0:40:36.270 high-poverty translated thank you yeah he is now I think the King's Royal 0:40:36.270,0:40:41.370 wheelchair bearer hell yeah and so yeah we get this little grouping here of just 0:40:41.370,0:40:44.910 they started arguing about you know repairing ships and and that they need 0:40:44.910,0:40:53.280 to come up with a master of war and a master of whisperers brand is this own 0:40:53.280,0:40:58.530 master yeah it's like come on but yeah we get just the governance it's it's a 0:40:58.530,0:41:03.210 pretty funny scene what a great scene lady slowly pan out from it and I love 0:41:03.210,0:41:08.730 the last thing we get is I once brought a honey honey comb and a jackass into a 0:41:08.730,0:41:13.680 brothel and yeah they're talking about opening in funding brothels and Brienne 0:41:13.680,0:41:16.950 sings well a lot of the brothels have burned down yeah and Brown was worried 0:41:16.950,0:41:20.700 about it and wanted to find embryos that the coin should probably be going to the 0:41:20.700,0:41:23.820 ship yeah there's just a really good way to show that King's Landing is being 0:41:23.820,0:41:28.230 handled now I believe it jumps to John leaving on the docks yeah and he gets 0:41:28.230,0:41:34.920 greeted by Sansa and Arya and brand yeah King bran King bran man and this scene 0:41:34.920,0:41:39.390 for Santa asks if he can forgive him for telling Tyrion his secret that it was 0:41:39.390,0:41:44.849 the only way that things would iron out and John says 0:41:44.849,0:41:49.349 you know basically yeah it's no biggie and they hug and then they hug tight and 0:41:49.349,0:41:53.269 then I got we be and then he goes to aria 0:41:53.269,0:42:01.559 fuck this part yeah socks and so I'm so I'm I mean I she's going west well yeah 0:42:01.559,0:42:05.819 obviously Aria reveals here the Westeros she's 0:42:05.819,0:42:11.880 going west and explains why you know and John just that smile of John's is like 0:42:11.880,0:42:17.670 what else were you got Julie well yeah you got your needle yo that tore me up 0:42:17.670,0:42:23.549 yeah amazing killed it and then like they like she just starts fucking crying 0:42:23.549,0:42:27.869 ourselves and it's like god dammit I can't do this again 0:42:27.869,0:42:32.999 I'm done I can't I'm done with this podcast I can't good and then John moves 0:42:32.999,0:42:38.220 on to King bran and basically tells him that I'm sorry I wasn't there when you 0:42:38.220,0:42:41.849 needed me and bran says you were exactly what you were supposed to be those 0:42:41.849,0:42:46.799 number of times throughout the series that bran was up in a tower watching 0:42:46.799,0:42:51.779 John feit you know that brand was crawling underneath some bushes and 0:42:51.779,0:42:56.700 John's fighting and Craster's I mean John was the reason though the night 0:42:56.700,0:43:00.719 king and the army of the Dead was defeated like there's no way so like 0:43:00.719,0:43:05.930 brands right here like you know you and he killed Daenerys he stopped the last 0:43:05.930,0:43:10.890 tyrant in maybe not the last time in this world but in our story the last 0:43:10.890,0:43:15.869 person who would have subjugated people even as little as she believes it it's 0:43:15.869,0:43:19.799 still thinking her way of thinking is the right way for everybody is still a 0:43:19.799,0:43:24.119 way of subjugation so John freed it from that and now we've 0:43:24.119,0:43:29.219 got Tyrion we've got Bronn we've got Brienne and fucking pod and Davos and 0:43:29.219,0:43:33.900 Samwell Tarly who will check each other's both worst impulses and we'll 0:43:33.900,0:43:39.479 help each other and and it'll get better as they keep doing it and that moves 0:43:39.479,0:43:45.479 forward and so yeah we start just getting this scene of it's cutting to 0:43:45.479,0:43:50.400 everybody getting ready King bran getting dressed Arya putting 0:43:50.400,0:43:57.299 on her stuff and gathering John snow on his Sansa getting this dope-ass weirwood 0:43:57.299,0:44:01.700 tree dress yeah and John arrives at the wall in 0:44:01.700,0:44:06.380 this sort of montage and sees tormund and starts pushing his way through first 0:44:06.380,0:44:11.030 brothers of the Nights Watch and then wildlings that he's brought south of the 0:44:11.030,0:44:14.870 wall and it's just so cool because even tormund back a couple episodes ago said 0:44:14.870,0:44:20.810 you've got the north in you oh it's part attune true yeah and so then we we see 0:44:20.810,0:44:25.220 aria you know she comes on she comes up on deck on a ship which I have to assume 0:44:25.220,0:44:28.100 she's the captain yeah she's got and she goes to the the 0:44:28.100,0:44:33.020 front of it I don't know about fucking shipped I just really run ahead of those 0:44:33.020,0:44:37.700 old the old stories of like the long when they yeah when they're sailing and 0:44:37.700,0:44:41.450 like the fern like the first Targaryen to go sailing yeah yeah it pans out and 0:44:41.450,0:44:44.210 like you were gonna say yeah there was it just had the SARC 0:44:44.210,0:44:48.590 carved Alaia the wolf's head on the front of the ship and then the stark 0:44:48.590,0:44:52.370 sails as well which was so yeah I feel like there's gonna be histories and 0:44:52.370,0:44:56.540 legends wrote about Arya and that's ever REO right there and that's it and no son 0:44:56.540,0:45:01.400 so we get yeah this crazy gown and he's just walking through well we get a a 0:45:01.400,0:45:04.550 head piece put on our a well no because she's walking through the Great Hall 0:45:04.550,0:45:08.120 first oh yeah that's right and everyone's kneeling and then she finally 0:45:08.120,0:45:14.810 gets to that cool little wooden that's iron she sits down and we're sorry about 0:45:14.810,0:45:21.110 barrack tonight yeah he's excited that Ghost came back yeah so Sansa Syd's gets 0:45:21.110,0:45:24.650 its sick ass crown put on they start ranting Queen in the hole in the North 0:45:24.650,0:45:30.590 the north is now an independent nation and Sansa is wheeling it and I don't I 0:45:30.590,0:45:37.490 don't think it's like that's nefarious I don't think it's on Sagat what she's our 0:45:37.490,0:45:42.440 daughter is ruling the north now she will make sure people are fed and cared 0:45:42.440,0:45:47.060 for so then yeah we get to see Jon cuddling with some John some ghost yeah 0:45:47.060,0:45:50.690 he reunited go fuck you all you people I told you that he wouldn't leave him 0:45:50.690,0:45:55.190 behind yeah know him but you know fuck you and 0:45:55.190,0:45:59.570 we get John and tormund riding through the tunnel with the wildlings following 0:45:59.570,0:46:03.710 them and then they ride out through the gate and John looks back as the gate 0:46:03.710,0:46:08.780 closes behind them all his world closed upon his his yeah everything he's known 0:46:08.780,0:46:11.930 he's I John's never going south of the wall again never 0:46:11.930,0:46:18.049 and again John leads the people who he led to safety South I think he's the new 0:46:18.049,0:46:21.770 king of the north I I think he's the king yeah yeah yeah yeah absolutely 0:46:21.770,0:46:25.460 tormund we'll follow him till he dies and I think every single other wildling 0:46:25.460,0:46:29.450 and they're the songs and stories that are gonna be sung about Jon Snow King 0:46:29.450,0:46:34.039 beyond the loud all of them oh yeah Queen Sansa in the North fucking captain 0:46:34.039,0:46:40.940 Arya you know Explorer of the the Seas the King brand brand the broken Tyrion 0:46:40.940,0:46:47.119 Lannister hand of King Joffrey then Daenerys Targaryen then fucking 0:46:47.119,0:46:50.510 King bran Brienne sir Brienne a knight of the 0:46:50.510,0:46:56.750 Seven King I think she was also seen Brienne fucking yelled out yo I was a 0:46:56.750,0:47:01.520 mess in the WIPO I was a mess man started yelling it because like she very 0:47:01.520,0:47:06.529 much could have been like yo this bitch left me fuck this um but she filled out 0:47:06.529,0:47:10.970 like she gave him details like it he you know and I don't quite remember if it 0:47:10.970,0:47:14.089 happened in the in the show but in the books that was something he he was very 0:47:14.089,0:47:18.200 well yeah yeah he was like what did my daughter gives him a lot of shit in the 0:47:18.200,0:47:23.990 show about his page being empty and so like she fills it in and then the very 0:47:23.990,0:47:29.779 end he died for his Queen first Queen she's not bitter about it she doesn't 0:47:29.779,0:47:33.410 you know hold it that he chose he chose wrong 0:47:33.410,0:47:38.420 but he chose his Queen and it also happened to be a sister lover but yeah 0:47:38.420,0:47:42.680 that part got me Brienne filling in his page was so good and so I think that 0:47:42.680,0:47:45.440 she's actually the head of the Kingsguard now I think it right yeah 0:47:45.440,0:47:49.220 which would make sense and that that's it the last shot is Jon Snow riding away 0:47:49.220,0:47:53.180 nor the to it to the whole thing which aren't merely is imposing is they were 0:47:53.180,0:47:57.200 which i think is great though cuz i don't know if you said it earlier but 0:47:57.200,0:48:02.720 you said it to me off mic that you know the first shot and the show is is north 0:48:02.720,0:48:08.809 of the wall last shot of the show yeah the wall so that's it ladies and 0:48:08.809,0:48:16.279 gentlemen we are we are done with Game of Thrones the television so who's Peter 0:48:16.279,0:48:20.140 Dinklage fucking literally the whole goddamn thing man 0:48:20.140,0:48:25.770 you mean I did not never see him die who's your season finale inductee my 0:48:25.770,0:48:35.290 season finale inductee oh man this is hard like you know I'm 0:48:35.290,0:48:40.210 and I mine's gonna go to our rest in peace 0:48:40.210,0:48:50.020 Daenerys fucking Targaryen I'm sorry that you turned the way you did even 0:48:50.020,0:48:54.430 though it almost seems inevitable but you you got what you set out for you in 0:48:54.430,0:49:00.370 the pilot the Iron Throne was what was set out for you in your future and in 0:49:00.370,0:49:06.070 this episode you got to touch it and feel it was yours it was yours and and 0:49:06.070,0:49:10.750 then you died what I think is one of the most haunting deaths just the visual of 0:49:10.750,0:49:19.390 it so Daenerys probably the only time I ever give you an inductee anyway so yeah 0:49:19.390,0:49:27.430 i think i think her just for that man man that was good it was good good good 0:49:27.430,0:49:32.140 good who's yours mine's kind of a treat but I 0:49:32.140,0:49:37.390 want to give mine to the writers qi4 and the product not just the writers but 0:49:37.390,0:49:40.420 like all those fuckers yeah and this will be an honorary and then I'll give a 0:49:40.420,0:49:46.030 real one after like the crew and the fucking all the the fucking you know 0:49:46.030,0:49:50.980 people that put up with all the shit especially this season remake this 0:49:50.980,0:49:55.570 season like this is a fucking outstanding season a great series finale 0:49:55.570,0:50:00.490 in my opinion yeah I thoroughly enjoyed it like it would still have intense 0:50:00.490,0:50:05.650 moments it had some of the most endearing moments say seeing John and 0:50:05.650,0:50:10.720 Arya say goodbye again you know after their reunion it's it was so good and 0:50:10.720,0:50:14.940 like but that's how you want that's how I wanted it like that's what's crazy is 0:50:14.940,0:50:18.850 none of this was bittersweet the bittersweet part is John leaving 0:50:18.850,0:50:23.110 Westeros forever are you leaving Westeros forever Danny died yeah 0:50:23.110,0:50:27.940 but otherwise like it's looking like they're gonna get the long fucking 0:50:27.940,0:50:31.810 summer now like this looks like it's fucking peace and prosperity like ya 0:50:31.810,0:50:35.220 know yeah I thought it was great so what 0:50:35.220,0:50:40.440 who's your true yeah so cast and crew hats off because I thought specially for 0:50:40.440,0:50:45.870 dealing with all those fans as Hong sig fans that you know been given shit to it 0:50:45.870,0:50:54.330 but Sir Davos for making it through man Davos you know he himself expected to 0:50:54.330,0:50:56.880 die at every single battle he was ever in 0:50:56.880,0:51:01.350 and all he wanted was to not die I thought for sure was going to sir pop 0:51:01.350,0:51:06.660 and um that's all he needs was his he needed his knighting he doesn't need any 0:51:06.660,0:51:10.860 more praise for me she's a good night he's there to do his duty there is a 0:51:10.860,0:51:16.470 freaking of duty that love that was some lines that teary and said to John when 0:51:16.470,0:51:21.210 he went John quoted Meister emo yeah and he says that love is the death of duty 0:51:21.210,0:51:27.390 there no yeah is the law duty is the death of loves material yeah and so just 0:51:27.390,0:51:32.000 that reversal and I like how Tyrions like did you just come up with that yeah 0:51:32.000,0:51:36.360 well that was also how Tyrion basically told them you need to kill the name 0:51:36.360,0:51:40.770 yeses exact times duty is the death of love or I need to kill your love type 0:51:40.770,0:51:45.960 thing oh yeah so what an outstanding episode let us know what you guys think 0:51:45.960,0:51:51.660 who do you have for inductees so we will be doing a full series wrap up in about 0:51:51.660,0:51:57.360 two weeks or so we'll have exactly social medias our social medias I'm on 0:51:57.360,0:52:02.910 Twitter at manners without we have our Facebook facebook.com slash Brotherhood 0:52:02.910,0:52:07.790 without check out our website 0:52:09.740,0:52:25.050 www.tejiendoperu.com no kidding patreon.com slash manners without and 0:52:25.050,0:52:30.600 our Gmail without manners Brotherhood at gmail.com Bam Bam leave us a like a 0:52:30.600,0:52:35.580 review subscribe all that stuff on iTunes and wherever else guys where 0:52:35.580,0:52:40.380 we're back to our regularly scheduled programming of book chapters because 0:52:40.380,0:52:45.150 there's no more show so for show only Watchers what a great chance to dive 0:52:45.150,0:52:48.960 into the book series join us we you know we have the whole 0:52:48.960,0:52:53.550 the whole first book started up so go back to the the prologue start your 0:52:53.550,0:52:58.680 prologue read give it a listen but until join us I'm gonna go crazy 0:52:58.680,0:53:03.390 Danny mad Queen and just start laugh giggling in your face about how I'm 0:53:03.390,0:53:07.230 always right in my ideals are the right ones you don't want him to laugh giggle 0:53:07.230,0:53:10.590 in your face no one wants me to laugh giggle in your face anyway let us know 0:53:10.590,0:53:14.100 what you guys think what you uh what you thought of the show we look forward to 0:53:14.100,0:53:16.290 hearing from you otherwise we'll see you on the next 0:53:16.290,0:53:21.030 episode um I'm going north of the wall with John and ghost I'm out this bitch 0:53:21.030,0:53:27.900 Valar Doeharis, peace

Hi everyone, and thank you for listening to the launch episodes of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We kick off the podcast series with a discussion of the lifecycle of a book. We're going to cover straight up to the book's release over this episode and the next, and today we talk all the way up to the happy-scary moment when your book is picked up by a publisher. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns, and any theories you may have about "Spider-Man: Far From Home." Thank you for taking the time to listen to this introduction, the first batch of new episodes drops on May 14th, so be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss it. A transcription of this episode can be found below. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast === Transcript === Kaelyn: 00:00 Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of the we make books podcast, a podcast about writing, publishing and everything in between. I'm Kaelyn Considine and I am an editor and acquisitions editor at Parvus press. Rekka: 00:12 And I'm Rekka Jay. I write science fiction as RJ Theodore and one of my books has published through Parvus Press Kaelyn: 00:18 And we love it. It's such a great book. Should I'll go get it. Um, so this is the second half of our two introductory episodes. Um, we are kind of doing a rough, uh, walk through. Rekka: 00:30 I think it's more of a tear through Kaelyn: 00:32 A tear through yeah. Tear through of, um, the publishing process. Same qualifiers. Last time we know this is not a perfect in depth every single part of the process. Rekka: 00:42 The part you care about. Yeah. We didn't talk about it enough but we will someday. Kaelyn: 00:45 No, I mean we were like that one. We're leaving that out. But, uh, this is, you know, so the first episode, which hopefully you just finished listening to, we covered, um, from having a finished manuscript up to submissions and broaching into the process of acquisitions here, we're gonna start with acquisitions and walk you all the way up to what happens to get the book on the shelf. If you didn't listen to the first episode I recommend go do that. If you didn't listen to our introductory episode, I also recommend you go do that. Um, just to get an idea of us, what this podcast is about and what we're planning to do here. Rekka: 01:17 Yeah. Before we're 10 episodes in and you have a lot more to catch up on. Kaelyn: 01:20 Yeah. And, uh, you know, we're releasing these all back to back. So, you know, this is a, Rekka: 01:25 This is our launch day, funny we should mention that we get to that. Kaelyn: 01:29 Yes, yes. So we talk a lot about launch days, um, so you know, just some information, some. Um, and to also give you an idea of topics that we were going to be discussing more in depth with dedicated episodes as we go down the line. Uh, so this is the second half of the two parter. Let's just get to it. Rekka: 01:46 Yeah. Kaelyn: 01:46 Hope you enjoy. Kaelyn: 01:47 [Music] Kaelyn: 01:54 Okay. Kaelyn: 02:05 It is kind of what we do. Rekka: 02:07 So, um, we spent an episode talking about sort of more the writers realm of responsibility. Kaelyn: 02:14 Yes. Real quick. Welcome back everyone. Rekka: 02:17 No, no, no, no, no, no, no. They're fine. They've been here. Whatever we said high already, they're binging. Kaelyn: 02:22 I don't know, you know, it's nice to like, Rekka: 02:24 Be polite? Kaelyn: 02:25 I know everyone's going to be just listening, you know. Hopefully everyone's just going to be listening to these two, this batch after the other. But you know, it's nice to say hello again in case they had to walk away from that. But so where last we left you, it was a cliffhanger. Kaelyn: 02:39 It was a cliffhanger. You just got accepted. Then what happens? Kaelyn: 02:42 Then what happens? Rekka: 02:43 Is this a soap opera or is this real life? Kaelyn: 02:46 Really quick? Tight pan on the face. Giant eyes. [gasp] Rekka: 02:53 Cut to commercial. Kaelyn: 02:53 Cut to commercial. Um, no. So where are we last left you, we were ah, you know, so you've gotten a call from an acquisitions editor. Rekka: 02:59 Yes. In theory, all your hard work has paid off. Kaelyn: 03:03 That's, hey, look. Rekka: 03:04 And all your hard work is just beginning. Kaelyn: 03:06 Yeah. Yeah. I think there's this thing that everyone thinks some about my book. I'm good. Rekka: 03:12 I'm done. Oh God, that's so wrong. Kaelyn: 03:14 So wrong. Rekka: 03:15 Sweet summer child. You are so wrong. Kaelyn: 03:19 That's good. I'm trying to think of things that could not be farther from the truth. Rekka: 03:24 Yeah, there's nothing. Kaelyn: 03:25 Um, so we're going to walk you through what happens after that now. But in order to get to that, we got to talk about acquisitions process a little bit. Rekka: 03:35 Yeah. Kaelyn: 03:36 So you Rekka, are someone that has been through it. I myself, uh, in case you have not listened to our intro episode, which go listen to it. Rekka: 03:43 Yeah. Yeah. Kaelyn: 03:44 Um, I am an acquisitions editor for Parvus Press, so I, this is– Rekka: 03:49 This is what you do. Kaelyn: 03:49 This is what I do among other things, but this is, this is the bread and butter of my, a lot of my job. Um, so again, we're not going to get into too much crazy detail here. Um, this is stuff we're absolutely going to talk about more down the line. Um, but we want to give you sort of a brief run through. So very quickly glossing over all of the, you know, what makes me interested in books because there is no good answer to that. Rekka: 04:21 Yeah, and it's not a universal. Kaelyn: 04:22 No, not by any stretch of the imagination. But let's say you've submitted your manuscript script. I've enjoyed it and next thing that's going to happen is you're going to get a call from me or if you've gone through an agent, I'll probably go through your agent and then set up a call with you. Kaelyn: 04:40 So what's going to happen here is I'm trying to get a good sense of you. I want to see what you envision for the book, what you're like to work with as a writer and how working relationship will be going, but also set your expectations for what we want and what we'd be asking you to do to your book because, and this is a running theme you're going to see through this: there's no such thing as a book that gets accepted and immediately published. It doesn't happen. Rekka: 05:15 Or should not happen. Kaelyn: 05:16 Should not happen. If it does happen, don't publish with that publisher. Rekka: 05:22 That's not your publisher. Kaelyn: 05:23 That's not someone you should be working with. Um, so we're going to have a couple of conversations. Uh, if there's an, if there's an agent involved, there'll be involved in the conversations. Um, most places, and again, another qualifier everywhere is a little different. Um, but you should be talking to people before you even start talking about a contract. So once everyone's kind of gotten to a place that we've, we've had, you know, had some conversations back and forth, Rekka, what is the one thing you need to stop and do? As excited as you are and as ready to sign the contract as you are? What should you do agent or not? Rekka: 06:09 Research, this publisher. Research this publisher until you know what the mineral makeup of the ground they're building is built on this, right? Kaelyn: 06:18 I mean, it's true because a few reasons. One, you know, presumably for working with an agent, they are, they're going to take care of you and look out for you. So you shouldn't be, you know, there's that. But even still, you should still be doing your own research if you not make sure that you're, you know, at minimum ending up in a place that is going to work well for and with you at worst, make sure you're not getting stuck with some kind of predatory publisher that's going to lock up your rights for years. Rekka: 06:48 Right Kaelyn: 06:49 So I know it's exciting, it's really exciting. Rekka: 06:52 It's very exciting. This is exactly what you've been working towards. You know, as far as you're concerned, this is your end goal. I mean, it's probably not your end end goal, but this is a moment that feels like everything hinges on you getting that contract and advance as fast as possible. Kaelyn: 07:10 Yes Rekka: 07:10 And that may, you know, it may not be the right publisher. Kaelyn: 07:13 Don't let it cloud your judgment, you know, for all of the time, all of the time we spent talking in a previous episode about how much blood, sweat and tears went into this, keep in mind how much of your blood, sweat and tears went into this. Don't throw it away. Rekka: 07:27 Right. Kaelyn: 07:27 I can't imagine having to make the decision to walk away from something like that. But think how miserable you will be if you don't. Rekka: 07:33 Right. This is a decision that seems like there's a lot of pressure pushing you in one direction and that saying no to a publisher and walking away, it may be your only chance and you will regret it forever and you will never get your book published if you don't go through them. And they may even say that and you definitely don't want those people. Kaelyn: 07:52 Yeah. Rekka: 07:52 Um, but look at the catalog of books that have been put out by this publisher. Those are the lists of names of people that you could potentially reach out to and just say, hey, I have been offered, you know, a purchase of my book by this publisher and I see that you worked with them, could you tell me, Kaelyn: 08:13 How was the process? Rekka: 08:14 You know, without divulging the, you know, the, Kaelyn: 08:17 Were you happy with them is a very easy to answer a question without asking for too much specifics, just yes or no? Rekka: 08:26 Yup. Kaelyn: 08:26 Just yes, I'm very happy with them. I have a great relationship or eh, it could have been better. Rekka: 08:30 And the reason you go to the catalog is because these are the books that the publishers still retains rights to, but they may not be authors that are actively with that publisher. So you may find some more honest answers than others. Kaelyn: 08:42 Yeah yeah, so, okay. Let's say you've done all your research. This is great. This is the publishing houses of your dreams. You are so excited! Now it's time for the contract. Rekka: 08:51 Yes. Kaelyn: 08:51 And ... Rekka: 08:52 You like legalese? I hope you like legalese. Kaelyn: 08:55 I really hope you like trying to understand minute details of things that are hopefully never going to apply to you. Rekka: 09:01 But I have a question. Kaelyn. Kaelyn: 09:04 Huh? Rekka: 09:04 I have a question. Kaelyn: 09:05 Sure. Rekka: 09:06 Does anyone talk like the language in a contract? Kaelyn: 09:11 Yes, but only if we're talking about a contract. Rekka: 09:13 Yeah. What is that? What is the deal with that? Kaelyn: 09:17 It's you know, it's cover your ass language is really what it is. Rekka: 09:21 But obfuscated information is not covering your ass if Kaelyn: 09:25 Well, actually it's ... Rekka: 09:25 it's well for debating what that even means. Kaelyn: 09:28 This is actually a good point to bring up is the reason that these very specific and very complicated words and phrases are used is because there have been court cases over the meaning of specific words. So you have to use specific words because they need us Rekka: 09:45 Because they have court precedents. Kaelyn: 09:46 Yes. And they translate to a consequence essentially. So yeah, as you're reading through this going like, oh my God, what? And I realize this must be extra torture for writers. Rekka: 09:57 Yeah. Kaelyn: 09:58 I just, I have a couple of comments Rekka: 10:00 I have some feedback. If you're open to it. Kaelyn: 10:03 The plot of this clause is just all over the place. Rekka: 10:07 I really don't like how it ends. Kaelyn: 10:07 I don't know who this subsequent is, but they keep, they keep popping up and then nothing happens. Rekka: 10:16 So, um, yeah, no, it's, it's, they can be daunting but... Kaelyn: 10:22 And if you don't understand what they mean, do not sign them. We're going to, we're going to get to that. So if you have an agent, your agent is going to handle a lot of the contract negotiations. They will, I mean, they should be, you know, keeping you involved, talking to you about, well, are you willing to take this? And this or they'll advise you, cause you know, your agents a professional, they know how to navigate this. Rekka: 10:46 And they're also familiar with these terms and these ... Kaelyn: 10:47 Yeah. Subsequents. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So if you're doing this on your own, look, I'm not going to say, you know, you must go get a lawyer because it's expensive. Rekka: 11:01 However, Kaelyn: 11:02 However, Rekka: 11:03 So is signing away your rights without understanding what you're signing away. Kaelyn: 11:06 Yes, exactly. um, if you don't understand what you're reading, if you have questions about it, again, this is your blood, sweat and tears. Rekka: 11:16 And if this is your first book, it means even more than like your third book or your fourth book. Kaelyn: 11:20 Exactly, yeah. So think about how much time and effort you put into this and think about if it's the ri - worth the risk of signing a bad contract. Rekka: 11:32 Mmhmm. Kaelyn: 11:33 Most places, I won't say they're not out. I will say they're not out to screw you. Rekka: 11:39 However, Kaelyn: 11:40 I will go so far as to say they're not trying to take advantage of you, but like every contract, each side is trying to get as much out of the other as they can. Now, I will say like, and I'm not just saying this because it's Parvus, I will say and Rekka, you can attest to this, we write very fair contracts and I think there is definitely an effort on the part of a lot of, especially independent publishers to do that. But it doesn't matter if somebody, if an offer sent it back to me and I said, you read it over, you have any questions? And they said, ah, whatever. I just signed it. I'd just be like, oh boy. Rekka: 12:14 Actually so funny story. Kaelyn: 12:18 Um, just read it. If you have any questions, you know, find someone or Google it, look it up. You know, there is, we will, we will do an episode about this. Talk about, you know, things that should be red flags and contracts, but the biggest things that are going to be the most interest to you covered or your advance, your royalties, your rights, uh, deadlines. That's a big one because Rekka: 12:43 Kind of a big one Kaelyn: 12:44 Lot's of them will ... Rekka: 12:44 They're in there in black ink. Kaelyn: 12:46 Yeah, a lot of times they get written into the contract and you know, you can, you're, you can lose your advance if you don't meet the deadline. And then there's going to be a lot of things like, you know, um, termination, um, you know, sales quotas like different things for longer down the road. And you know, those were the ones that you might gloss over, but you shouldn't. Umm, also in there is going to be any stipulations about what the publisher versus you were going to be doing for marketing. Um, things about your audio books, Rekka: 13:17 Your author copies. Kaelyn: 13:18 You're author copies. All different kinds of little things that you should be aware of. Like I said, we're going to do, we're definitely going to do one where we get a little more in depth with this because it's very important. And on, I think the post acquisition side, it's the most intimidating part of the process. Like the, I have no idea how any of this works. Rekka: 13:41 And what does this word mean? What does it mean if I sign this the way it's written and am I allowed to ask for changes or are they going to withdraw their offer? Kaelyn: 13:49 Exactly. And you know, honestly they shouldn't. Rekka: 13:52 Right. Kaelyn: 13:52 Um, you go back and say, Hey, I'm concerned about this, Rekka: 13:56 The phrase contract negotiation is a thing. Kaelyn: 13:58 Yes, yes. And um, yeah. I'm not going to say some people will say never accept the first contract given to you. If that's a good contract and you're happy with it. Rekka: 14:08 Yeah, if the things that you were most concerned with are addressed to your liking in the contract and you know what everything means and you're, and it's not just because I think I know what everything means, but you actually understand and you've had conversations about what everything means. Then if you like the contract, if the things that mattered to you are, are, set to your satisfaction, there isn't anything that like you would, you would want to clarify or or modify. You can sign that contract. Kaelyn: 14:39 Yup. There's nothing, you know? Yeah. Just be smart about it is the thing. At the end of the day, the last thing you want is to walk away with a contract that you're unhappy about. Rekka: 14:50 Right. Kaelyn: 14:51 So you've got a great contract. You're all excited, you've dug in, you've had conversations with the acquisitions editor or the publisher. Hopefully you've had a conversation with, if not your editor, somebody who is on that team or associated affiliated with them. At least you've talked about what the plans are for the book. They've talked about what your intentions for the book are, how you see the future of the, if it's a series, how you see it going. Rekka: 15:14 Mmhmm. Kaelyn: 15:15 So now, Rekka: 15:17 And some of the changes that they want might have been in your contract, so you may have already had this conversation. Kaelyn: 15:22 Yes. That's a good point. Yes. There they may say the publication of this book is contingent upon you doing A, B, and C. We'll talk a little bit more about that in the next section about working with your editor, but part of the reason for that is to make it clear what the expectations are with this, because ... Rekka: 15:45 And that's a good thing. Kaelyn: 15:46 No, it is. Rekka: 15:46 And it sounds so firm and so stern, but it really is the more clear that anyone can be the better off for everyone involved because you know what you're getting into. Kaelyn: 15:55 And I think this is where people, writers start to get nervous about publishers that, and this is a good transition into working with your editor because I think they get nervous about what they're going to make me change everything. Here's the thing. We would not have bought your book if we didn't like it the way it is. You wrote a good book. We would not have bought it if you didn't. We're going to take it and make it a great book together. This is a team process. This isn't, you know, some random person descending from on high with a red pen, marking it up and tossing it back to you. This is, you know, this is a conversation. This is a process, Rekka: 16:37 And you're still going to be doing the work of the edits. This is still going to be your book at the end of it. Take every challenge as a way to go, okay, how do I make the strong stronger? What do I want to do here? They're going to offer you probably some kind of suggestion, Kaelyn: 16:50 Oh, you'll have conversations. Rekka: 16:50 But it's not a fully formed suggestion. It's going to be more of a challenge. Kaelyn: 16:54 Yeah, you'll have conversations. Yeah. I mean I, one of my favorite things that I get to do and you know, um, apart from acquiring books, they edit our books too. I love getting on the phone with my authors and talking through and having things explained and having a problem and going like, okay, how do we work? Rekka: 17:11 Um, I planned a bank heist with my editor Kaelyn: 17:14 And that's honestly, that's my favorite part of this is the first part, the developmental edits. So developmental edits are, you're working on the story, it's the structure, themes, cohesiveness, character arcs, making sure everything makes sense, lines up is a nice neat package at the end of the day or if it's supposed to be a mess at the end, it's an appropriate mess at the end. Um, Kaelyn: 17:40 So this is where you're going to be having a lot of conversations with your editor and every editor works differently. Um, I know the way I deal with my authors is different from the way Rekka's editor, deals with her and we work at the same company. Rekka: 17:54 Yes. Kaelyn: 17:55 And I think part of that also is, you know, making sure the editor fits well with the author. Everyone works differently. Rekka: 18:01 We knew that Kaelyn would never be able to tolerate spending any amount of time with me, Kaelyn: 18:05 No, no ... Rekka: 18:05 So Kaelyn did not become my editor. Kaelyn: 18:07 Yeah, so we just decided to do this podcast together. [laughter] That seemed like a much better, Kaelyn: 18:14 So we just, we don't even just email each other back and forth. We're in the same room together, Rekka: 18:18 Yes. Kaelyn: 18:18 For long periods of time. Kaelyn: 18:19 So probably a good idea now not to ever work on a book together, just in case. Oh God, could you imagine? I can't decide if that would be like, Rekka: 18:27 The best or the worst. Yeah, Kaelyn: 18:28 Awesome. Or if we'd just be like handing back like a 700 page tome of like, so here's the thing, if you read this, when you get to the end, the book becomes a singularity, [laughter] so make sure you're away from everything when you get to that. Yeah, no, we could, we could possibly do some damage there, Rekka: 18:52 Or at least, and the podcasts early, [laughter] one or the other. Kaelyn: 18:58 Either we take over the world or we killing each other. It's going to be okay. So that's, you know, that's going to be what your developmental editor is doing. How many passes, there's no answer to that, Rekka: 19:07 As many as many as it takes. Kaelyn: 19:09 As many as it takes. Rekka: 19:09 Hopefully, like, you know, everyone is cooperating well so that somebody isn't resisting a change in writing around the change. Kaelyn: 19:16 And that's a great part of the ... Rekka: 19:20 Admission? Kaelyn: 19:20 Yeah, well no, that's a great spot to talk about. You know, having conflict with your editor and what we were talking about before about the sphere of like they're going to come in and change everything. Our book, my book, everyone's book. Okay. Having, you know, your editor might come in and tell you that your favorite part of the book isn't working and that's difficult to hear. Rekka: 19:44 Because it's precious Kaelyn: 19:45 It's precious. And I will say someone who's had that conversation, it's difficult to say because I personally can tell the parts of the book that they really like. Rekka: 19:57 Enjoyed and are proud of ... Kaelyn: 19:57 Yeah, exactly. Um, try not to fight with your editor. It's just, and conversely, your editors should not be picking fights with you, but it's not going to help anyone and it's going to strain the relationship. It's, you know, everyone, every relationship with editors is different. If you disagree on something, try not to look at it as a conflict. Try to look at it as how are we going to sort this out and how can we get to a mutually beneficial conclusion both for us and the sake of the story. Nobody wants to write a book under a black cloud. Rekka: 20:39 Right. Kaelyn: 20:39 It's not .... Rekka: 20:40 Cause you're gonna remember that black cloud, when you look at that book on the shelf later. Kaelyn: 20:44 And this is, you know, like again as, as an editor, I never want an author to walk away from a section unhappy. Like I've had so many times where I've had to tell writers, yeah, put it down, walk away from it. Because if you write it right, like the way you are right now, and you know this isn't necessarily because we're in disagreement over some things might have just been frustration or writer's block or Rekka: 21:07 Society or, Kaelyn: 21:08 Yeah, it's the same thing with having a disagreement over it. You're not going to be happy with the book and you're going to regret that. And part of my job as your editor is to get the book to a place for it is an excellent book and you're both happy with it. So at the end of your developmental edits, everything that we've talked about, your story, your character arcs, the structure, the plot lines, everything should be where you want it to be. Both parties would be happy with it. They're going to say functionally the story's done. Rekka: 21:36 Yeah. Kaelyn: 21:36 Yeah. Then comes line edits. Rekka: 21:38 Okay. Kaelyn: 21:41 Line edits ... Rekka: 21:42 Speaking of functionally. functionally this isn't English Kaelyn: 21:46 Yes, line edits are the part where you start to question your ability to write. Line edits are your editor, and again everywhere is different. It could be your editor that does this, you know, if it's a larger publishing house, maybe the hand off to someone more junior to uh, to take a look at. Rekka: 22:05 But it's not a bad thing if it goes to somebody else because now you get another Kaelyn: 22:10 Oh yeah, Rekka: 22:10 New perspective on this book who's going to catch stuff because they haven't been part of the process so far. Kaelyn: 22:15 Rekka actually just brought up a kind of potentially key component here that we didn't really bullet point, but it's good to talk about is: Beta readers. Rekka: 22:25 Mmmhmmm. Kaelyn: 22:25 Now the use of these. Rekka: 22:27 They are precious and they're wonderful. Kaelyn: 22:28 They're precious, they're wonderful. Buy them cookies, give them hugs. Rekka: 22:31 Build an army. Kaelyn: 22:31 Build an army that's full of cookies and lots of hugs. Depending on your publishing house or who's publishing you, they may or may not use them. But for the sake of, you know, this here, and by the way, if you're self publishing, Beta readers, Rekka: 22:48 Are so key, Kaelyn: 22:49 So key and crucial. Um, but Beta readers are going to do basically what Rekka just said. They're going to look at the book, they're going to, you know, say like, I liked it. I didn't like it. I was confused at this part. Um, this character's storyline doesn't make sense to me. You're going to get large scale feedback from, macro feedback from them, if you will. And that's, you know, depending on how things work, that might be after most of the developmental edits or that might be kind of during, Rekka: 23:18 Yeah, it's, it's kind of up to you as the author if you were in, you know, working with your own army. Kaelyn: 23:23 Yeah. The editor will, you know, um, I know a part of this, we have a Beta reader program, Rekka: 23:30 But if you know, you have heavy lifting to do on your book, you don't want to bring, Kaelyn: 23:32 No, that's not ... Rekka: 23:33 In the Beta readers because that, that's wasting their time. Kaelyn: 23:36 They are for fine tuning. Rekka: 23:36 They will be reacting to this as a reader would. And that's really a valuable thing. Kaelyn: 23:41 That is, yeah, it's so important because it's just a great perspective to have. It's an indicator. It's, you know, we've dropped something in this solution. Let's see what color it turns to tell us what it is. Rekka: 23:55 And if you have more people, it goes from an n equals two to like an n equals 10 maybe. And that's just like, it really, it really multiplies how many reinforcing opinions you get on, like whether it works. Yeah. Kaelyn: 24:08 So that could be happening either during the process of developmental edits or right after, but then afterwards you going in the line edits, line edits, it's like we were talking about are sentence structure. Um, ma- watching and catching for like repeated words. Rekka: 24:27 And believe me. You've got repeated words. Kaelyn: 24:29 Trust me, you have repeated words. I understand they're only so many ways to say the word desk, but, Rekka: 24:36 But you can write around it. Kaelyn: 24:37 Yes. So you know line edits, I mean, your editor is going to go in there and they're going to just make the changes and they should track everything and it's not, you must do this a lot of times. Like when I do it, it's like, look, if I'm adding ha- half of the sentence or I'm moving something, this is a suggestion and I'm giving you an idea of how to make this work better. Rekka: 24:59 Yeah. Kaelyn: 24:59 Um, you know, some editors are kind of like, nope, you're doing it this way. This is so again, everyone's a little different. It is not a reflection of your command of the English language. It is a reflection of the fact that writing somewhere between 70 and 150,000 words causes fatigue. Rekka: 25:18 Yes. Kaelyn: 25:19 And there are only so many ways you can say something differently. Um, so this is the clarity portion of things. This is the making sure that when the reader reads this, they understand what they're reading. Rekka: 25:32 And a lot of that is making it succinct. Kaelyn: 25:34 And if I wrote that sentence down, I would make them change it. Rekka: 25:37 Yeah. [laugter] Yes. Spoken sentences are the worst. Kaelyn: 25:41 But I mean Rekka, you do you do a read aloud, right? Rekka: 25:44 I absolutely do a read aloud. I'm still suffering recovery from my, my last real aloud, which ended, um, almost two weeks ago now. Kaelyn: 25:51 Yeah. Which is, I mean, you know, for, if you're unsure of what it is, it's you get your manuscript, you go through it and yeah, Rekka's pointing at, I'm not joking. It's a two inch binder. Rekka: 26:03 I'm sorry. That's a three inch binder. Kaelyn: 26:05 Three inch binder. I was wrong. That was a three inch binder of her printed manuscript and there's all sorts of flags and posted sticking out of it. We'll put a picture of it on the Instagram so you can say can get a look out of it in its full glory. Rekka: 26:17 Yes. Kaelyn: 26:18 And you go through and read this out loud because reading it out loud is the way the reader, like you don't understand that because you've written this, you are so familiar with it. You're skipping and skimming and there's stuff in there that you missing. Rekka: 26:33 Your brain is telling you, it says what you think it says. Kaelyn: 26:35 Exactly. Yeah. You normalize it in your mind. So then you're gonna get line edits I mean that is a lot of, that's tracked changes that's accept,reject, acccept, reject. Okay, wait yeah, I see this is wrong. alright, she told me to put this in here and change it, you know, so I'm not going to lie. It's a process. It's not, it's not super fun, but it's just, Rekka: 26:54 Get your favorite beverage. Kaelyn: 26:56 Get your favorite beverage. Rekka: 26:57 Wear your favorite pants. Kaelyn: 26:58 Your favorite, your favorite non alcoholic beverage. Rekka: 27:01 Yeah. Kaelyn: 27:01 Because doing this drunk is a bad idea, not going to come out great. Rekka: 27:05 Yeah. There will be tears or um, yeah, I don't even know. Kaelyn: 27:09 This is the, this is, I mean this is the, uh, can't even do English good part of the process because then come the copy edits. This is an entirely different person than your editor, generally. The copy editor is the definitive, they are the ones that say no, this is where the comment actually goes. Authors present, company included, have a tendancy Rekka: 27:37 No, you shush! Commas are a spice. Kaelyn: 27:42 Commas, commas are not voice. Rekka: 27:48 [laughter] Kaelyn: 27:48 They are ... Rekka: 27:48 I'm sure I spit water for my nose, but I'm, Kaelyn: 27:52 I swear to God, I'm going to make mugs that every Parvus author, all new authors we sign gets, that says: "Commas are not voice". I understand. It's hard. It's like, no, I want them to see that this is the end of the thought and Rekka: 28:06 Okay, William Shatner, um, Kaelyn: 28:11 [laugher] But your copy editor is the one who's going to go through, they're going to, you know, check your grammar, your punctuation. They are also the one who is going to deal with your style guide. So they're going to say, okay, if it's a dash, it's space dash space or there's no space or there's just a space before and they're going to go through and uniformly format all of that stuff. At some point we will absolutely have a copy editor on the show because they're. Rekka: 28:42 They're special people. Kaelyn: 28:43 They are, no, I mean they are like, it's, I can't do it. Like I won't even try. I mean there are some times, but like I will copy edit, do a rough copy edit of something real quick, that's like a sample chapter because we just got to get it out the door and it's not ... Rekka: 29:01 If you look at a final copy edit, Kaelyn: 29:03 Yeah, and then I'm like, Oh God, I'm stupid. Wow. [laughter] Rekka: 29:07 I don't know how to comma either. Kaelyn: 29:10 Um, so you know, that's that. A good copy editor by the way will also go through and, you know, maybe say like, 'Hey, this sentence was a little confusing to me or maybe separate this into two paragraphs. Um, copy editors are special people who deserve all of the hugs and cookies in the world. Rekka: 29:28 Wait, what happens to the hugs and cookies that were from my Beta readers? Kaelyn: 29:31 They, they hang out with the copy editors. Rekka: 29:33 It's like they just picked the crumbs off the floor. Kaelyn: 29:37 Okay, fine. The Beta readers get, Rekka: 29:39 Copy editors get bacon. Kaelyn: 29:41 There we go. Rekka: 29:41 There we go. Kaelyn: 29:41 I mean everyone knows copy editors love Bacon. So then after that, Rekka: 29:47 Can I just, can I just make a comment? Kaelyn: 29:49 Of course. Rekka: 29:49 If your book reaches copy editing, Yay. Kaelyn: 29:52 Yay! Rekka: 29:53 Cause you're done with the line edits, you're done with the revisions. Because what I was going to say is you're done. Kaelyn: 30:01 Um, copyedit is like that's, I won't say it's carved in stone. Rekka: 30:07 But that book is on its way out the door. Kaelyn: 30:08 But it's heavily etched into clay. If you need to, you can go back and fix something, but we really don't want to do that. Rekka: 30:18 Yeah, minimal touching after. Kaelyn: 30:21 Yeah, exactly. You know there's definitely like there've been times when we've, you know, had to do that and then it's um. For those of you listening at home Rekka is vehemently trying to avoid eye contact with me. Rekka: 30:34 There might have been some last minute issues. Kaelyn: 30:36 And look, it happens and you know, but like copy editing, you are functionally done the book at that point. In the meantime cause you're probably going, okay well I've got all this stuff going on. What's this publisher doing that's supposed to be so great and special? Rekka? Rekka: 30:55 What is the publisher doing Kaelyn? Kaelyn: 30:59 You looked like, you looked like you had a thought. Rekka: 30:59 I was going to say that between getting these revisions back, you've got stretches of time where you're sitting and you probably pacing if you're not sitting. Kaelyn: 31:14 Um, Rekka is about to go into a whole thing. Rekka: 31:16 Yes in the meantime. Kaelyn: 31:18 So we're going to do, Rekka: 31:19 Meanwhile, Kaelyn: 31:21 What the authors in the meantime should be, and then we're going to jump back to what publisher is doing. Because you're right, there are long stretches of time where you're just sitting there waiting to get things back. Rekka: 31:32 Yes. Kaelyn: 31:32 So what are you doing in the meantime? Rekka: 31:34 Well, aside from stressing that things are not actually being looked at. Kaelyn: 31:39 You're sitting there going, oh my God, they hate it. They're, they're figuring out how to cancel my agreement right now. Rekka: 31:43 Yes. Kaelyn: 31:44 This is. Rekka: 31:45 Yeah, there's that. Or there's like, do they, are they working on me? Are they working on the book that comes out next week? Kaelyn: 31:52 Um, if we're still working on the book that comes out next weel ... Rekka: 31:55 Yeah, I know. I know. I know, but you know what I'm saying? I'm like, I know that your calendar has more than my book. Is my book on the front of the table or is someone else's book on the front of the table? And I, if I ask am I going to find out, no, they haven't looked at it and I don't want to know that. So I'm not asking, so I'm just over here panicking. So while you're panicking, uh, try to distract yourself by handling the things that you can take care of at this point. Kaelyn: 32:20 Yeah, because there's a lot you could be doing to help yourself and help you career and your book. Rekka: 32:24 When your book launches, you don't want that to be the first day you go, Huh. So should I do like a website or something? [laughter] Kaelyn: 32:31 So, like people are asking me like, how did I get in touch with me? I guess they should have Twitter. Rekka: 32:36 Yeah. Maybe a twitter or I don't know. Um, what are readers even? You know, like be on, be public. Kaelyn: 32:46 I mean, what is a book? Rekka: 32:49 Well that's, that's another episode, that's a five episode series on what is a book. Kaelyn: 32:55 The metaphysical. But there will be alcohol involved. There will be crying. Rekka: 32:59 I'm looking forward to that one. But so, so there are things, you know, your social media platform, you don't have to do every social media venue out there, but pick the ones that you feel comfortable expressing yourself as your, your public persona. If you are using a pen name to hide your identity, now's a good time to start dusting the tracks and making sure that you've sealed those, those ridges tight and everything like that. Kaelyn: 33:25 Yeah, by the way, now's a good time to start establishing your pen name. Rekka: 33:28 Right. So you don't want on your book launch day for someone to come looking for you on Twitter and see that you have exactly one tweet, which is please buy my book. Kaelyn: 33:38 I mean, that's a good tweet. Rekka: 33:39 It's a good tweet. Kaelyn: 33:40 It could be multiple of that. Rekka: 33:40 The publisher likes that can be your pinned tweet, but by then, you know, you can start talking about how excited you are. Um, if your cover reveal has just gone out from your publisher, do not, do not preempt the cover reveal that your publisher has scheduled to do, not do that. Kaelyn: 33:58 They're going to be nice and show it to you beforehand. But you know, that's, that's under the hat. Rekka: 34:02 Um find other authors in your genre, um, the, the people who wrote the books, which are your books, comps you, you know, like follow them. Um, don't go like stalking their followers and, and, and attacking people in saying like, please come follow me, you, or anything like, you know, don't be, don't make it weird. Kaelyn: 34:20 Don't have to be weird about it. Rekka: 34:21 But, you know, start to build a following, start to follow other people, start to interact with conversations that are not personal conversations and start to tweet about your book, about the process, about your emotions as an author because you want to be a real person when someone comes looking at your Twitter profiles. Kaelyn: 34:40 So, um, but also there's other people that you may meet in your life. Rekka: 34:45 Yeah. So I was getting to that, but okay. So I was using Twitter for example. But you don't have to use Twitter. If you are more comfortable on Facebook for some unknown reason, my opinion slightly interjected there or, Kaelyn: 34:57 No, I mean great because then all your data's going to be given out to a lot of people. So it's actually really good publicity. Rekka: 35:04 Is that what that is? Didn't feel like really great publicity. Kaelyn: 35:07 That's not how that works? Rekka: 35:08 There's Instagram, there is tumbler, there is um, it depends on what your, where your audiences and if you read in the genre that you write in, you probably already know where that audience is. Kaelyn: 35:18 Yeah, of course. Rekka: 35:18 You might already be there. So pick your um, your social media profiles and I think it's a good idea, before, I know Kaelyn was trying to lead the witness, but um, before you start attending industry events, if you already have a Twitter handle, you are going to meet people and you are going to become mutuals at these events, if you, if you hit it off, so have a profile that doesn't make you look like a ghost. This is a good thing. So, so get this kind of stuff. Have your website, your website doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to be just a word press website Kaelyn: 35:52 I mean, you can, Rekka: 35:52 With a little bit of information about you. Kaelyn: 35:55 Square Space. Rekka: 35:55 Yeah, there's a lot of stuff I need to say it, Kaelyn: 35:58 But create like a very basic, you know, here's a little about me. Here's my book. Here's some links to where you can buy it. Rekka: 36:03 Yup. Just a clean layout, mobile friendly. And because someone looks you up while you're there, standing in front of you or standing in line to talk to you some like a panel or something. So, but making it, give yourself the online presence that you want while you have control over it. Kaelyn: 36:17 Yes Rekka: 36:17 And then, um, and that's a good project to keep you occupied while your publisher is doing whatever the next step is before they need your input again. And then do look around for industry events. Um, ones that have more reader attendance are going to be the ones that you want to focus on more when you already have a book. Kaelyn: 36:37 Yeah. Rekka: 36:38 Because a reader can't do anything with your, with the knowledge that we have a contract, Kaelyn: 36:42 With who you are. Rekka: 36:42 You know, so, um, go make friends with other writers. And this is so precious to have other writer friends because one of these people understand what you're going through every step of the way they have been there. Kaelyn: 36:51 It's a support group. Rekka: 36:52 It's a hive mind and it's also like a herd immunity sort of situation. Kaelyn: 36:57 Oh my God, I love that. Yeah. Rekka: 36:58 Yes, that's exactly, that's exactly what it is. And it's a group of people who know what you're going through and sometimes they can pull you aside when you were having a breakdown and they pet you gently, Kaelyn: 37:07 Deep breaths, deep breaths. Rekka: 37:07 And they serve you, your, your bacon and your cookies and your hugs and Kaelyn: 37:10 Tea, tea is important. Rekka: 37:12 Okay, fine. Some people drink coffee, Kaelyn Kaelyn: 37:17 Coffee, whatever, whatever hot beverage distilled from plant life ... Rekka: 37:18 Your cozy beverage of choice. Yes. Hey, sometimes it's beef broth, sometimes beef broth, this is what I need. Kaelyn: 37:26 It's distilled from a living thing. Cozy beverage of choice Rekka: 37:28 Cozy beverage of choice, that's the term. So we, um, you know, we as authors, write in this desolate loneliness, like even if you're surrounded by other people, if you're getting the work done, chances are you're silent and you're staring at a screen and you are insular inside your mind. So that's really ... Kaelyn: 37:45 It's very isolating. Rekka: 37:47 It's really refreshing to go somewhere where you see that other people are doing this too, that you are not alone in feeling this way. And when you walk into that room and you go, oh my God, I don't belong here, every single person in that room is feeling the same way. Kaelyn: 38:02 But further, you're wrong. Rekka: 38:04 Also, everyone in that room is wrong and they will tell each other that, authors who are friends with other authors are like the most beautiful people. Kaelyn: 38:12 No, it's great. Rekka: 38:13 And yeah, so, so go make some friends at conferences. Um, it's a whole other thing that we're not going to dive into on this, like how to network at conferences. Kaelyn: 38:23 We're going to talk about it at some point. Rekka: 38:24 And we will talk about that. Um, you're not there to sell your book. You've already sold your book. You're not there to, um, to chase agents into bathrooms. Kaelyn: 38:36 Don't do that, ever. Rekka: 38:37 So please don't, um, or anyone don't chase anyone into a bathroom. Kaelyn: 38:42 That's actually, that's a good point. Rekka: 38:42 Unless they say, please follow me into this bathroom, I need your help with my t shirt tag or something. Anyway. Um, yes, you're going there to be a real genuine, um, trustworthy person. So that's how you behave when you were there. And then we'll go into that in another episode, about Kaelyn: 38:58 Maybe when we're at the Nebulas? That would be a great, live from the Nebulas. Rekka: 39:01 And I do have an article on SFWA blog about it. I believe it is called 'A Quantum Residents at the Nebulas'. Kaelyn: 39:11 That's fantastic. Yeah. So go check that out. Rekka: 39:13 So I'll link to that in the show notes, but it is, it gives you an idea of what it's like to be among other people who are more creative in a similar way as you. Kaelyn: 39:21 Yeah. Again, yeah, I think that's a great idea. We'll do that at the, Nebulas so another episode to look forward to. Rekka: 39:26 Yes. Kaelyn: 39:29 Umm, maybe we'll grab a few people and to have a conversation that'll, that'll be fun. So that's what you as an author can be doing. In the meantime, what your publisher is doing is all sorts of background stuff that you will, you get checkins and updates about. But really what they're going to be most concerned about is you writing and finishing the book. So, but in what's going on in the background is your publisher is dealing with marketing, they're figuring out, um, you know, how to market this book, who to market it to what the key demographics are. Um, and then a bunch of things are going to come from that. A big one is cover art. You know, that is, that is a huge important thing. I have sad news for all of you authors who just were sketching, you know, your dreams of what the book's going to look like. You don't get a say really. Um, you know, of course you'll get a look at it. You'll get, you know, some progress and updates. But at the end of the day, your publisher is the one that does your cover art. Because for a lot of reasons, but one of the big ones is they know what they're doing. Rekka: 40:39 Right. And it's a piece of marketing. It's not just the duvé on your bed. Kaelyn: 40:43 Yeah. And I'd say like, actually that was something that even me, it took a little while for me to get over where like I'm seeing cover art from books I've worked on and I'm like, well that's not quite right. And I'm going, I'm getting Kaelyn, that's not the important part. The important part is this looks awesome and you want to pick it up. Rekka: 41:01 Um, that's a really tough hurdle to get yourself over mentally. Kaelyn: 41:05 Oh, it's very, that is, you know what I have to say that is one of the things I found that authors really have the most trouble with because again, it goes back to the personal, this is very personal. And also I think, cause I know I do it when I'm reading submissions and when I'm getting excited about something, I'm picturing what the cover is going to look like in my head. Rekka: 41:23 Yeah. So you know, the author's doing that. Kaelyn: 41:25 The author's absolutely doing it and um, Rekka: 41:27 And they've been working on it longer. So they, they've been dedicating their hearts to some vision that is not coming to happen. Kaelyn: 41:35 Now, I mean, I will say, you know, we, when we do these, most of the times the response I get back is, oh my God, that's gorgeous. I never would have even conceived of that stuff. You know, trust me, the publisher is not going to screw you over on cover art because they want it to also be gorgeous and represent the book. Rekka: 41:52 But more importantly, they want it to sell the book. Kaelyn: 41:54 Yes, so this is big part of the marketing. Um, but in the meantime, they're also, you know, reaching out to industry contacts and their contacts, blogs, uh, publication magazines. Anybody who has a lot of attention that does reviews, they're going to be getting ARCs, advanced reader copies out to everyone, you know, to take a look at and hopefully getting, generating some buzz, getting some good feedback. You know, there's all kinds of social media now that's just based around reading and what you reading and everything. So you know, they're going to be putting these things out on to anyone who review books and like, you know, getting blurbs for the book. Um, in the meantime they're also writing back copy. Writing back copy is really hard. Rekka: 42:39 It's a whole other thing. As much as you dread writing your query letter. Kaelyn: 42:43 Oh God, yeah, that's the editors version of the query letter is like writing, so I do understand your pain a little bit because I have to do back copy for the books I work on a lot. Rekka: 42:51 And, and you print how many copies of that book? Kaelyn: 42:56 More people are going to see my back copy then your your letter. So yeah. And then they're doing publicity. They're getting everything psyched up for the, for the prelaunch. And really the biggest thing is trying to generate buzz and trying to get preorders because that is what is going to help make your book successful. So that's what's going on in the meantime. So after copy edits, everything's done, it goes to layout. Layout is going to do what layout does. They're going to get the book already formatted to publish. They're going to add any art or um, it's a big letters at the Rekka: 43:31 Drop caps, Kaelyn: 43:31 Drop caps. Those, I should know that, um, you know, they're going to take care of all of that to get the lay out going and then you're book's pretty much ready to go. There are a bunch of other steps that lead up to the release of the book that also have to do with marketing. You know, they might ask you to, uh, write a blog post for this website. You did that right? Rekka: 43:55 I wrote quite a lot of them. Kaelyn: 43:56 Yeah. Rekka: 43:57 And let me tell you, just like switching your mindset from writing a book to a query letter, writing a nonfiction blog posts like a worst, I, it feels like writing an essay for a teacher all over again. Kaelyn: 44:07 So wait, I don't put aliens in this one? Rekka: 44:10 Well, I mean, I did. Kaelyn: 44:11 Okay. Rekka: 44:12 So, but I mean, so a lot of these are nonfiction articles about like your writing process or anything you discovered about yourself or are relating the aliens to some tidbit about your process or something like that. Kaelyn: 44:29 This is, this is where we're trying to humanize the authors. And I don't need that in the like make them seem like people Rekka: 44:37 We're totally normal, who said we aren't? Kaelyn: 44:39 But make it so, people like to connect on that level and see the process. And it's great because it gives you a little insight into how everyone's working and what they're doing. Rekka: 44:51 And when the author can like express that they are passionate about their book, Kaelyn: 44:54 Exactly. Rekka: 44:54 Then other people are interested in that and being and reading it and also being passionate about the same book. Kaelyn: 45:00 Um, you know, there may be, depending on the scale and the release of the book, maybe you'd be asked to do interviews beforehand, uh they might, you know, then there's a whole bunch of other stuff that happened after release. But your publisher is in the meantime just getting everything ready. They're dealing with preorders. If your book is being released to be sold in bookstores, through a distributor, they are dealing with that. That is, that is a whole long process. Um, they're, uh, getting everything set up for ebooks and ebook preorders and just getting everything ready so that when it's launch day, it's ready to go. Social media posts, reviews and magazines and other publications. Rekka: 45:45 And timing them to like keep the traffic coming for a few days. Kaelyn: 45:49 They're definitely thinking, what's the best way we can get the most attention on this book for the longest amount of time. And again, if you have an agent, there'll be involved in helping with that as well. Um, so then it's your book, Birthday. Your Book Day. Rekka: 46:05 Yes. And that was a weird day. Kaelyn: 46:09 Yeah. Rekka: 46:09 Because there's not actually a lot going on. Kaelyn: 46:12 Yeah, you kind of, wa- wake up and feel like the world should be a little different. Rekka: 46:16 This is, I call it the, um, the birthday Princess Syndrome. Kaelyn: 46:20 Yeah. Rekka: 46:20 Like I always, I always looked at movies and TV shows and saw that like on somebody's birthday, they were center of attention and they wore fabulous clothing. And on my book birthday, I got up and I went to work. Kaelyn: 46:36 Yup. Rekka: 46:36 And I sat there and I reloaded and social media all day. It was incredibly, it was like the least focused day I'd experienced in months. It was kind of horrible. Kaelyn: 46:47 Books are released on Tuesdays, Rekka: 46:51 Yeah. Kaelyn: 46:51 And so for most people it's Rekka: 46:53 It's your day job. Kaelyn: 46:54 A regular Tuesday Rekka: 46:55 And you somehow try to make it through your regular Tuesday. But all you can think about is your book is out and you're waiting for someone to text you like Amazon rankings or or something. You're waiting for someone to tag you on Twitter or Instagram and not happening. And it's already 7:00 AM. How come nobody is celebrating? Kaelyn: 47:14 Why has no one been waiting outside Barnes and noble to buy this? Rekka: 47:17 Why didn't someone bring me flowers at the office? And that's sort of the thing is like every birthday that I had, this expectation that I would be the center of attention, I would end up in tears. And it's very easy to have that same expectation and results on the day that your book comes out. Like you're a published author and the worst thing is going to work. And having some, the coworker say, Oh, I guess you're quitting your day job now. It's like, well thanks. Kaelyn: 47:41 I am not. Rekka: 47:42 Um, so you're angry with me for writing a book. You have a complete misconception of how this goes and you're probably not even gonna read the thing, [laughter]. Kaelyn: 47:52 So, that is kind of, you know, that's where we are, it ends with you being the most happy you've ever been, but also really sad. Rekka: 47:59 Also welcome to publishing. Kaelyn: 48:02 This is publishing. Rekka: 48:02 And they will, and you will be asked so many times that day. How do you feel? So you might want to write that blog post ahead of time too because they don't want to know the truth. Kaelyn: 48:12 Um, so that's kind of a, you know, that's the rough process. Um, like we said, glossed over, you know, a lot of stuff. Just really quickly hitting it because we're going to talk about all of this in more detail down the line. This was sort of a long introductory into this is what this podcast is. I mean, we're not going to do in an order. Rekka: 48:33 No. Kaelyn: 48:34 We're going to jump around a little bit. Rekka: 48:35 Because we're going to miss something and then if we do it in order, then we can't go back. So it's just going to be filling in. Kaelyn: 48:39 Also it's more fun to kind of, you know, Rekka: 48:41 Like what are we really talking about? Kaelyn: 48:43 Yeah like, I've got something to say about this. Rekka: 48:45 Big mood. Kaelyn: 48:46 Yes, yes, exactly. Um, so that's, that's kind of where we're going to leave you for this episode. Um, you know, we hope this was at least maybe a little informative. Rekka: 48:57 And once again, like if you heard a step in this process where you're like, I didn't know about that. Kaelyn: 49:01 Or I'd like to hear more about that. Rekka: 49:03 Definitely that. Or, um, if you are feeling more confident as a result because you didn't know all this stuff, like, you know, good for you. But I mean, like we want to hear from you what's useful, what's informative, what's startling and a little bit terrifying. At WMB cast on Twitter or Instagram feedback at Wmbcast.com definitely reach out. And of course, if you're a patron on patrion.com forward slash WMB cast, you can interact with us there and we'll probably take questions for future episodes. Kaelyn: 49:33 Oh definitely, yeah. Rekka: 49:33 You have some level patrons later on, um, once we start building up a community there, obviously today's day one. So, yeah, or we don't have great expectations for today cause you know, we try to be realistic about our launch days but um. Kaelyn: 49:47 No, it's, I mean we, you know, we keep saying this but we really just want to hammer it home, so much of where this came from was wanting to be a resource and build a community that's active and that we can engage wit. Rekka: 50:01 And have these conversations. Kaelyn: 50:03 Exactly how these conversations about what don't you know, what scares you, what you know, what is holding you back from trying to do this? What part are you stuck on? Rekka: 50:13 What have you heard conflicting information on? Kaelyn: 50:16 Yeah. And look, here's the thing, you're not going to insult either of us with any questions, you know, Rekka's a writer I work in publishing. I know that, I - I've made peace with that a lot of people that are going to listen to this are going to be on the writing side of things. And you know what, that's great. That's what I'm hoping for. So, you know, I'm not going to be insulted by anything that you know, comes our way. Don't be rude, obviously. Rekka: 50:40 But let's be decent. Kaelyn: 50:41 Yeah. But, um, yeah, you know, if you're like, if you have a question like, well how come I need a publisher for this? I love it to answer that. Rekka: 50:51 Right. Kaelyn: 50:51 And, another a qualification. You know, if you're interested in self publishing, this still also could be helpful for you. Rekka: 50:56 And I have a self published title, I have future plans for self published titles. Kaelyn: 51:00 Yes. Rekka: 51:00 This is like this is a safe space for every path through the book creation process. Kaelyn: 51:06 Yeah. That's why it's called We Make Books because we all make books in different ways, different capacities and at different points in the process. But everyone is involved making books. So we really want to hear from everyone is, is what we're getting at here. Rekka: 51:23 Please reach out to us. Kaelyn: 51:24 Yeah. Um, uh, Rekka and my Twitter's are both linked in the uh, Rekka: 51:30 On the front page of Patreon, it's on the bio of both Instagram and Twitter. So you can find us. Kaelyn: 51:35 Yeah, and you know, you can and you know, go through the podcast thing, but you know, you can also reach out to us directly, Rekka: 51:40 If you have comments specifically or a question specifically for one of us. Kaelyn: 51:44 We're out there. Rekka: 51:45 Yes, Kaelyn: 51:46 And we can't wait to hear from you. Rekka: 51:47 And so we will talk to you again in the next episode and that will be, if you are listening to this on launch day coming up very, very shortly, Kaelyn: 51:54 Yeah, like queued up, hopefully next. Rekka: 51:57 Immediately next. Kaelyn: 51:57 So stop, listening to this and go enjoy the next one. Rekka: 52:00 Skip ahead. Kaelyn: 52:01 Thanks everyone.  

Often, when you do something that you know you need to do, there will be consequences.  In this episode you'll hear how getting rid of 2000 people from an email list led me to being removed as a speaker from an even happening in April. was it worth it?... well, check out the episode and find out. Automated Transcript below ----- 0:00 Hey this is Dean Soto, founder of prosulum.com and freedominfiveminutes.com and we're here again with another freedom in five minutes episode Today's topic is this 0:19 I got cut 0:23 that end more coming up 0:27 well good night this is actually night it is about 1130 and I'm doing this podcast I'm out here in the freezing cold but it's so worth it to be with you again gosh I'm so sorry that it has been a while man things had been crazy crazy crazy in fact it got crazy right when Oliver the guest our very first guest in the last episode left so 1:01 I'm going to get I'll give you a quick quick preview cuz I'm going to talk about what the craziness was in the next episode. But a quick preview for the next episode we had 1:13 literally had five puppies handed to us, and they were crapping all over the place. And it was interesting. It was a test of stress, but it worked out in the end and I'll tell you how it all worked out in the end in the next episode, but today's story goes a little bit something like this. So over the last few over the last few weeks, actually I have been preparing for what is called warrior week in the wake of warrior community there is a crucible there is a gauntlet a full 2:00 week that you go through if you want to get the whole the entire wake up warrior experience. Okay now I'm not affiliated with wake up warrior at all. I'm not a very affiliated with warrior book but if you have been listening to this podcast for any time you know that that is a big part of my life and a big part that is a big reason why I am even doing this podcast in the first place 2:33 it has literally changed my life It has given me the tools to 2:40 to not only live a meaningful and a very purposeful life it's given me the tools to also do things that I would have been terrified 2:55 to do in the past 2:58 now because of this training that 3:00 Basically how it works is where week is one week that you go and lack of a better word, you get the crap beat out of you with a whole bunch of different exercises and things like that. But it's not meant as not meant to be just like a boot camp type thing. It is meant to unleash a lot of emotions that are within you. And for you to face, your pit face. The things that you lie about, face the things that you are putting on a mask about because we all do this and we lock ourselves into these roles that 3:37 that other people try to put us in that we also put on ourselves. Okay, so that is what warrior week is when you were actually there. Of course, I've never even been there yet. But this is what I've at least from what I've seen so far and is a life changing event well 4:00 Pretty much a month before going into warrior week, you go into 4:09 a preparation mode, you go into a group of a bunch of other guys who have one or two coaches who are preparing you for warrior week. And it is it is not easy. It is not easy at all. Every day, every single day you have something to do you have an assignment and the assignment is something that you cannot escape from 4:41 you either you either do it or you don't go to worry a week 4:46 you are a member of the team, but you're also having to lead at some points and because of all of this, it even though it seems simple. 5:00 Even though sometimes it seems repetitive there are a lot of emotions that come from doing this because every day you're looking at something about yourself and you're sharing something about yourself with these other men who are essentially become your brothers you're sharing something about yourself 5:25 and slowly slowly starting to unmask the things about you that you've hidden or that if they've come out you've beaten back beat it back into yourself into the way that that that you think you're supposed to be or other people will come and say, hey, that's not you. That's where did that come from? And you go right back here. I you know, you're right. That was really bad on me to do then you go right back to where you were, 5:59 and so on. 6:04 Hopefully I'm not waking up my son up there, he always has his window open even though it's freezing. 6:11 And so 6:13 with all of this, you're constantly unveiling things about yourself that 6:22 that you that you 6:25 just imagine. Imagine if you ask yourself questions about yourself every day, if you really took a hard look at yourself every day, all of the changes that would occur Well, that is what is happening in this case. And a lot of the times is happening even more because not only do you have to look at yourself, you have to process it and explain it to other people. 6:49 And so there have been emotions inside of me. There have been things inside of me that I have either never felt before or either 7:00 felt him and I've suppressed them and there's things that are going on that 7:10 that 7:13 in some respects I like it even though it's dark 7:19 and that sounds very scary. But there are parts of me coming out that 7:27 that I that I thought were dark or I thought were not how I should feel or how I should act and it's coming out and I actually do like it 7:45 so which leads me to this entire story of me getting cut from being a speaker at a an Amazon Amazon 8:00 event that I was going to speak at in April. 8:08 Well, 8:11 so 8:13 one of the things that came up 8:16 is that 8:19 I had a very 8:24 nice guy demeanor. 8:27 And then on top of that, I always wanted to I wanted I had this feeling like this, this fear that I that I wanted everyone to like me and if they didn't like me, then something was wrong. That's not me. People have to like me. Everyone likes Dean right everyone like is Dean and so 8:49 So through this entire process. I started seeing things specifically about my business where I'm like, you know what, 8:59 I have a lot of 9:00 People who 9:03 who 9:07 I'm basically super boring absolutely super boring especially with the online Empire Academy stuff that I that I had been doing that and I don't really do much with it anymore but I actually think I am going to do some things with the email list and because I do not 9:27 take one side or the other, I do not challenge anybody. I am very very boring on that email list. I have I basically out of you know, I have 2000 I was looking at my Convert Kit. I had 2000 people who had never opened an email for like the last few months and I had been sending email after email after email, trying to give some really valuable stuff but 2000 people who were doing nothing literally just ignoring my email. 10:00 know and I'm like, you know what, 10:02 one of my things one of the things that I want one of the things that I want 10:10 is that 10:13 I want to have an impact on people for one and two, I want to hang around with people. I want people to be in my network in my social circles who are getting value from me, okay, value from me 10:33 value. 10:36 So if when I saw that there were 2000 people who were on my email list who literally never opened up an email in the last few months and I sent at least minimum 10 emails. I looked at that and said, You know what, 10:57 I need to I need to give them an ultimatum. 11:01 If because here's, here's the deal, if they're on my email list, I'm literally taking value from them. If they're on my email list, and they don't want to be, I'm taking value from them. They are, 11:15 they are, 11:18 they are basically getting their email bought their inbox full. It's, that's it, they see an unboxing it, you know, it's just one added little thing. And literally, that's taking value. They're not getting any value from my email. And it's actually taking value because it's filling up their inbox, 11:35 right? So I'm like, No, I do not want that. That is not how I roll. That is not what I want. And I don't want to be around people who don't want to be around me. And so I drafted up an email. This was after some of the warrior exercises I was doing. I drafted up an email and basically said, Okay, look, you have not open an email in 10 days. 12:00 And even these emails that as the last few emails I've invited you 12:05 to the person I've invited you to the event that I'm going to speak at plus 12:12 invited you to give to get you give you dinner 12:17 dinner with me for free at a really nice restaurant I had a really really nice restaurant planned like really really really nice restaurant 12:28 and 12:31 and then there you would essentially get one on one coaching and consulting from me so you I would literally pay you to come be with me and to consult just because you're a member of my community. Right so I so this is what I said in the email I sent you know, hey, you haven't opened the email 12:50 in I've sent about 10 and and I've even invited you to all these amazing things 12:58 you still haven't opened the 13:00 Email. 13:02 So here's the thing, here's the deal. You're getting subscriber unsubscribed. In fact, the title said, bye bye. You're being unsubscribed. 13:10 So, here 13:12 is the here are the three options that you have. The first option is to respond, keep me subscribed. And also, just tell me why you want to stay subscribed. 13:25 Second option 13:28 is you can reply with a nasty, nasty 13:34 comment, 13:37 you know, and asked me to unsubscribe you. And I put in parentheses you know, these are the loser types. these are these are the people who literally have not opened an email 13:49 not open an email in months from me, 13:54 but yet when they see that they're going to be subscribed. unsubscribed. 14:00 They look at the email and they go oh how 14:03 oh how Dean. 14:07 unsubscribe me. Oh my gosh. How Oh my I know they're clutching their pearls and then they go home well 14:15 I'm going to look up the courage to respond to him with a nasty email Oh I'd never wanted to be on your email list anyway Dean yeah let me let me draft up a I had one guy who dropped he drafted up like a huge paragraph 14:33 telling me why you know people aren't opening my emails or whatever and I'm like the dude you literally have not opened up my email any of them until I told you ravines unsubscribed and then now you 14:52 you're going to start coming back. I didn't respond. I really didn't even read anything that he wrote. 15:00 But now you're going to come back and just complain and complain and complain. So I said this in parentheses I basically said in the in 15:10 in summary I said you know, hey losers are going to complain. So this is number two number two option you know, this is the basically the loser option you know, you can respond with a with a complaint, you can respond with a nasty comment, but that's what losers do. You know, you you you'll take action. You won't take action on me on my dream drop shipping, which I've had several people who have become financially free because of that. They won't take action on systems. They won't take action on consulting. They won't take action on my free stuff. They won't it won't take any type of action, but they will take action to come back and complain. That's what losers do. They make some excuse Oh, Dean. I didn't take action because you guys 16:00 Cuz you're you're just not this or you're not that are you know oh gosh Thank you for subscribing me I had I had one guy who's like thank you for subscribing me I I've been trying to unsubscribe forever I don't like really you don't know how to frickin click a stupid button at the bottom of an email you're retarded you could if it was taking you that long you could have replied insistence just said unsubscribe me you're literally retarded. Okay so 16:33 so that was option number two. So anyone who responded with that type of email is a loser they are you know it to to respond with a nasty email like that you're a loser or Option number three was just click the unsubscribe button and below that's it. So option number one your winner because you stay on my email list and you want to you actually want to 17:00 to, you know, get some good information, you know, and so on so forth. Option number three, you're a winner because you just said, Okay, yeah, you know, good ideas. Just I'm going to click that unsubscribe button your winner. That's it. Option number two, 17:18 you're a loser you are because you're literally taking action to just complain and to make an excuse, 17:28 okay. 17:30 And so 17:33 one of the comments in there that I said was, you know, at least I took me at least I forced you to take action on something, even though it was option number two. So you took action on something, even if it was just complaining. So good job. Yay. But But ultimately, it's Dean, you're so mean. You're so mean. Oh, and so 17:56 so option number four. There was no option number four, but there were some 18:00 People who took an option number four and these are the super duper 18:06 super super super losers who 18:10 who basically went to the person who was putting on the event 18:15 it's still going to be an amazing event by the way like it's totally understandable that they you know if they get pressured part part of life not a big deal I'm not worried about it 18:27 but went to the person who's putting on the event and said oh Dean so mean he doesn't look at what he said he called everyone losers know I called you a loser because you're the one who is going and just complaining rather than just subscribing or saying, Hey, keep me on the list. You know, because yeah, I do like what you're doing either one you're going and complaining. And so they complained. Oh man, gosh, he's been he said all these bad things. And the host basically said hey, you know, 18:59 you know I'm getting a lot of pressure. 19:00 Sure and so on and so forth I'm gonna have to remove you as a speaker and I said yeah no problem I was just glad that it happened today because this is I booked my I booked my flight and hotel today and so at least I was able to cancel first class first past fight the flights are not cheap so so yeah that was that that was good 19:23 but anyway so yet you know she sent me a nice thing saying hey you know, you know it was gut wrenching when you said this in your email and blah blah blah and you know I can't you know use the word loser and stuff and I mean if you if once again if you looked at the email literally the only people who were losers are the people who complain who I knew were going to write back with some nasty comment and you know, she asked, you know, you should send you should send an apology, email, and yada yada and I'm like 20:01 Know fully understand, thanks for letting me know and canceled no apologies necessary on your part or on my part. And that's it. 20:10 So why is this important? Why is this important? It's important because there are going to be times where you have to make a decision to essentially cross the Rubicon, 20:25 essentially, to go with your heart and to to make a hard decision that, you know, is going to cause some kind of blowback. 20:36 You know, it's going to cause some kind of blowback For me it was getting cancelled and getting a lot of nasty comments and so on and so forth. do I care? No, because guess what, out of this I had two people I had two people, one lady who got burned by some stupid guru 20:59 quote unquote guru 21:00 Who took all of her money essentially? And what did what did I do? She responded because of that email telling me about all this and I'm giving her free 30 minute free 30 minute consulting session just so I can help her to get back on track. 21:24 If I did not do this, I would not help. Her 21:29 second person 21:31 was a wife who's taking care of her husband with cancer and has a disabled child 21:40 and said that she could not open her my my emails because she was so busy taking care of them but wanted to start an Amazon business 21:50 wanted to start an Amazon business 21:54 but could not do it because of all the stuff that was happening that she liked. 22:00 The content that she loved what I was saying but but I couldn't but she could not open emails over the last few months because of all of this stuff 22:08 and she's and and because of that I offered actually offered one of my courses to her for free 22:18 so that she could build wealth but you know what she did this is a real winner this is a real winner she already had based off of the last email she actually went back and looked at the the emails that I was sending and looked at the merge by Amazon emails that I was sending that had step by step freaking documentation step by step frickin systems 22:45 instead I think I'm gonna go with these actually because it's very, very hands off and it's perfect for my situation. So had I not sent this email out 22:57 how to not send this email out. 23:00 You would not have had access or even known I had sent those emails 23:07 and her family would continue to suffer would have continued to suffer 23:14 that to me those two situations to me 23:21 far outweigh getting cancelled far outweigh getting the losers 23:30 responding to me the way they were the losers going to the event coordinator 23:38 and getting the cancelled and everything like that 23:44 far outweigh 23:47 there's gonna be times when you need to make decisions like this 23:52 there's going to be times when you need to make decisions like this for me I'm going to be sharing a lot of inside stuff 24:00 with everybody that is in my circle, 24:04 so if you're on this podcast if you're on my email list and freedom in five minutes calm if you're on my client with pro Sue 24:14 anybody in my social circle is going to start seeing more of my inner workings, things that I'm not going to share. I'm simply not going to share with people who are deadweight 24:33 sometimes you're gonna have to make a decision like this 24:38 it's gonna hurt 24:40 and it's going to challenge you and people are going to say no, that's not who you are. 24:46 That's not who you are 24:50 in a set that time you have to make decision to say you know it should I go back? Yeah. Should I should I should I stay where I'm at and who other 25:00 People want me to be or am I going to be real to myself? 25:07 So what is one thing right now 25:13 that you know deep down inside you need to do 25:19 that is going to cause other people 25:24 to say that's not you. 25:27 That's not you. 25:29 You're You're this person over here. 25:34 What's that one thing that you've been dying to do? We're dying to say 25:48 and I challenge you 25:50 in five minutes to make the decision to do it 25:55 to make the decision to do it. It might be going on to your Facebook group. 26:00 or on Facebook in general and saying, Hey, I'm starting a business, this is what I'm doing. I'm going to start a side business. It might be where 26:10 you go to your boss, and you say, Hey, you know, this is, you know, I, I deserve a raise, I deserve a raise. Because this is who I am, this is what I've been doing for you 26:23 might be going to your employees and saying, Hey, we're going to be measuring here are the measurements that we are going to implement. 26:33 And they're going to say, well, you're happy go lucky. What? Why would you've never had us measure anything before? what's what's up with this? And I guarantee you some people are going to not like it. They might leave where they might cause chaos, but when you push through it, it's going to deliver massive results. 26:55 What's that one thing that you know you need to do? 27:05 Alright this Dean Soto freedom in five minutes.com. 27:11 com yes is a longer podcast longer podcast but it's necessary it's this was a tough one I'm not gonna lie This is tough this is it's it's a tough one for me but it feels right it feels right and I know it's right because I've already got to change to people's lives in a way that I would not have changed them otherwise and I was hoping to change a bunch of people's lives at this event but 27:40 you know 27:42 the the losers one that round but there will be plenty more in the future not I'm not worried about it in the least so anyway Dean Soto freedom environments com pros calm and I will see you in the next 28:00 freedom in five minutes podcast. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Mike: Hey, welcome back to another episode of Liberty Revealed. I'm Mike Mahony, your host, and today I have a guest with me. His name is Matt Plautz. He's the 17-year-old host of Unfazed with Matt Plautz. His podcast focuses on current events comedy, philosophy and various subjects that guests bring in. So please welcome to the show, Matt. Hey Matt Matt: Yeah thanks so much for having me, Mike. Mike: How are you doing today? Matt: I'm doing great. Just excited to get going and talk a little bit about what we were talking about with Howard Schultz and everything like that. Talk about some independent candidates in just 2020 in general. Mike: Sure well before we jump into that, you know since it is Super Bowl Sunday when we're recording…Patriots or Rams? Matt: I'm Patriots. I got a patriots jersey in my closet right now. I am a Bears fan, but they never make the Super Bowl so I usually root for the Pats and I've got Pats by seven. Mike: Alright, awesome. Yeah, I think it's gonna be a good game, that's for sure. So, we'll see. So, so yeah, you mentioned Howard Schultz and I mean, that's been the the big uproar in the media. You know, everyone's afraid that Howard Schultz is going to run as an independent and taking votes away from the democrats, that he will help re-elect Donald Trump. So what are your thoughts about that? Matt: Well, first of all, I mean, I think it's a little ridiculous that everyone's attacking him for running as an independent when he is an independent. Like, what else would he be running as? He was a former Democrat, obviously, but he no longer aligns with the Democratic Party in terms of, you know, free college for all he doesn't agree with, as far as I'm aware, free health care just doesn't think it's affordable. So when your party has shifted, people leave the party. It's just like, you know, you wouldn't expect someone to continue to vote for the Democratic Party if their opinion has changed on it. So I mean on that side of things, I just think it's a little unfair for everyone to be so accusatory towards him when really, it's just, he's still very against Trump. Whether you like Trump or hate Trump, you can't say that Howard Schultz is trying to help out Trump in any way. And I don't think there's any guarantee that it really would help Trump because personally, I've worked on the Republican side for a couple years now, and I know a lot of Republicans who are agitated with Trump and I know a lot of Democrats that love him. So there really is no way and that just as you saw with 2016, deep diving and analytics doesn't really work anymore because people are extremely unpredictable with how divided our nation is right now. So I don't know I think they're being a little bit unfair. What about you? Mike: Yeah I completely agree with you. I think that third party candidates in general get bagged on and you hear how if you're voting for a third party candidate, and you tell somebody if they're Republican, they claim you're going to help get the democrats elected. And if you're if you're a Democrat, they claim you're going to help get the republican elected. And like in the last election in 2016, I personally voted for Gary Johnson and I was told by both sides, you know, you're going to help the other side get elected, you're going to take votes away. And I asked them well, you know, you like a Democrat, you're assuming I would have voted for Hillary Clinton. I'm gonna tell you something. If I was forced to vote for either I wouldn't have voted. So you know, there's no you can't use this, oh, you'd hurt my side, because both sides think that and there and they're both wrong. I mean, the most third party candidates, and that's what I find really interesting about Schultz is he saying he's not just saying he's going to run as an independent he's going to run as a centrist independent, which is, if you're, you're too young to remember this guy. But you probably heard the name Ross Perot Matt: Did it didn't he didn't Ross end up getting about like 15% in some states? Matt:Yeah Mike: He definitely affected that election. But it was because he ran more on as a conservative independent and so he, you know he made that, he created, you know, a situation that they're claiming Schultz is going to create. I don't think he will. I think if he runs with a position in the center he's going to have a good chance of getting a lot of votes but he's going to pull them from both parties. That's the key thing that I think they miss. Matt: Yeah. Did it didn't he, didn't Ross end up getting about like 15% in some states? Mike: Yes, yes I mean, he did quite well but of course, Matt: Yeah. Mike: You know, a similar situation to Schultz, he was a CEO of a major tech company. He had a lot of money to burn and I mean, that's, you know, money and politics is another topic for another day. And maybe you can come on another time and we can talk about that, but for now, I mean, I think. Matt: For sure. Mike: It's known that one of the weird things about our country is, you know, I think it was Thomas Jefferson that said, you know, we should avoid political parties and you know, I think he was right. I think political parties…what it does is you get some people who are automatically against Donald Trump because they're democrat and then you get some people who support anything he says, because they’re republican rather than, you know, I've gone through the last two years as a libertarian. I've gone through the last two years going well, okay, I like that idea. Oh, I hate that idea. I can't believe you said that. I'm all over the place with it, because he's all over the place. And that's how it should be. But then you get the people that are like, in lockstep and I know they're intelligent people because I know some of them personally and you just say how is it that you miss like, like, how do you feel about this wall that he wants to build? Matt: The wall well, yeah, just before I talked about that a little bit, I 100% agree.What I always say is that you get entrenched with a two-party system you're forced to check a box that you stand slightly closer to and then everyone gets mad at you if you check that box was oh you agree with this that he said. No, I don't! I was forced to choose one of them because there isn't a viable third party and, so yeah, that I totally agree that it's a broken system I don't know that parties are unnecessarily the problem, maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but I think the lack of choices it's just not representative to the population, you know? You have people that couldn't check republican or democrat and that's why there should be four to five parties maybe even more maybe less. But and with the wall, it is it's a hot button issue and I can go either way on it. I understand both sides because you on the Democrat side of things, their reasoning for not wanting the wall is mostly financial saying that it's not worth the dollars spent..And then there are also those further to the left that just think that it's inhumane. Um, I think there's definitely an argument to be made if it's worth the money or not if it would actually be effective and depending on what side you are, they're going to say one thing or say the other, but I think it's a little ridiculous, the inhumane part, because in my opinion, it just…it's not inhumane to keep people out of your country when they can come here legally whether or not the system's broken,you know I don't actually know too much about that because everything every information you're getting they're trying to nudge you one way or the other so it's really hard to truly know how broken the system is, but to say that it's inhumane to try and keep border security, you know, talk to the people that are that are being raped, and being murdered and stuff by people that we didn't get a chance to vette and I don't think that all illegal immigrants by any means. I don't even think the majority of them I think most of them are coming here because they want abrighter future, but you know, they can come here legally. And the argument I've always had is because I'm actually I leaned away and the wall that's one of the things I do like about Trump, because he's so adamant about border security. I always say, you know, regarding illegal immigration, it's just like, for me, you know, it's, it's way easier for me to just hop on the highway and never take driver's education never have to go get my license at the DMV, because God knows no one wants to go to the DMV, you know, it'd be way easier to do that. But in a society, there are laws that may inconvenience you just for the sake of the general population safety and if we need to vet people, we need to vet people if you have a problem with that, you know, I think that maybe you should look at going somewhere else. That's just my personal opinion. What about you? Mike; Well I mean I kind of have a kind of a hybrid libertarian view on this issue i think that you know first of all, let me tell you, my wife is from Canada and we've been going through the immigration process herself. And the first thing I'll tell you is it's extremely inefficient Matt: Yeah Mike: .We've been in the process for quite a while now. And we still don't have it. We we've been told there's an interview date been picked and that it's being sent to us. But you're talking over two weeks ago, why does it take two weeks to process a letter that goes, you know, from maybe I think it's coming from Chicago to Orange County. Matt: sounds like getting approved by iTunes Mike: right? It's exactly like why Why does it take so long and And not only that, I mean, we spent over $5,000 on the process. And I mean, imagine if, you know, I'm lucky enough to I'm running multiple businesses and making good money. Imagine if I was making $10 an hour How do I afford the 1400 dollar filing fee to get her here? And so I think that what we need to do is we need to be Matt: Yeah Mike: Give people a pathway that if they want to come here and work that they can do that with a work visa, where we vet them, like you said, and we also make sure then that they're paying their income taxes because you know what, they don't pay their income taxes, we can revoke their visa and have them sent out of here. But I also think that it comes down to this there if there's going to be an immigration system at the federal level. And I don't think we're ever going to see that go away. And if that's where it's going to be, then they need to have it so that the pathway to being a legal immigrant is affordable and something you can have helped doing if you don't if you know, that's one of the things that's lacking. Like if you don't have you don't understand something you call the immigration people and they'll mostly tell you, well, you're supposed to check this box and you're supposed to make sure that this is filled out, but they can't really give you advice should you fill out this form or this form and there needs to be someplace ever I mean, I don't know how it is in every state, but I know in a few states I've been in the court systems have helped centers that people are there volunteering their time to help you so that you are able to avail yourself of your rights and of course as a libertarian personal freedom and liberty it's huge for me. So I think if they could they could fix that. Then we get to the point where and this is where I think I part ways with libertarians because I feel Remember I said if they don't pay their taxes we can revoke their reason and get them out of the country. I think we need if once we've had an affordable system that makes sense the people can understand and actually have a legal path to work here. Then we need to be like Australia where you don't you overstay your visa they send somebody out to find you and support you and attach a penalty to it you're banned for three years you can apply again for three years I think what would fast happen is we would be would make a lot more revenue in the immigration system because you know, it's it's a volume thing more people going to going to apply legally and you're going to you're going to make that that money but also you're going to have higher tax revenues because you're you're getting people in this country who really want to work and they want to take these jobs and I don't know they it seems like we should allow them to do that that's just the where I where I go with it and i think you know as far as I my stance on the wall is i think it's it's it's extremely expensive and I think they need to use a system like we have on the Canadian border on the Canadian border we have technology there's electronics that if you walk across the border it goes off and they and it'll trigger infrared cameras that'll turn on I mean they can find you if you're you know trying to tempt into the country illegally the wall I mean they're going to go around it they're going to go under it. They're going to go I mean right away. The joke was if it's a 50-foot wall, someone's gonna make a 51-foot tall ladder. I don't necessarily think they'll climb the ladder to go over it but you know they're gonna they're gonna find their ways yeah you know they're gonna they're gonna find their ways and I think we it may just be too much money especially since there are areas of the border where the terrain it won't allow someone to cross so don't have a wall there..Yeah, you only have two choices. Matt: Yeah. And so. So when I say that I'm I'm pro wall. I think it's just because I'm forced to. Like I said, that's the problem with the two party system, you have two choices. And the Democrats, they want to say that they have no word for border security. They're not really doing a whole lot about border security and they don't want to and that's very clear for risk because because they receive a primary amount of the votes that come from that, but that's a discussion for another day, but it's um, it's a little unfortunate that you're forced to check one of the two boxes, which is almost no border security or border security that I don't think is the most effective and I've always agreed with the argument that well, the wall isn't the most cost-effective option on the wall isn't X, Y, or Z, that those are legitimate arguments. What I have a problem with is when people come in, and you know, they, they try and instead of doing a logical appeal, they use an emotional appeal. And that's my problem is because I've never really been a recipient of emotional appeal because, you know, it's not the best way to do things. You know, if you make a decision based on an emotional reaction, it's usually not the best result. And so I think the discussion that should be had is not and I understand Trump's angle Trump wants to build a wall because it's it'd be very hard for the Democrats to undo that to justify undoing it because once the money is spent, that's what we have, you know, taking the wall down wouldn't make sense it'd be very hard to justify so I get that angle of it. But at the same time, it's you really have to think about is technology a better solution? You know we have drones we have all kinds of technology we could be using to our advantage we just need to figure out how to make that a permanent solution and also how to fix the system it's similar to taxes you know you should tax people when we tax the rich far too much they just load all their money the Bahamas you have to find the right percentage where people will actually be willing to get taxed. So we need to fix the immigration system like we try to fix the tax system is where people it's easy enough for people to come. But we also can at least attempt to filter out the bad ones, you know that we have to find some type of a sweet sweet spot where it's effective. But also like you said, I didn't know that type of angle from the Canadian perspective. And I'm similar. I'm sure it's similar to Mexico because one of my friends had an immigration problem as well. They had to move back to Mexico for like a year to resolve it. So it is it is a broken system.we do need to figure out how do we fix it as opposed to just not doing anything so like like I said it's that's what's important about a third fourth fifth and party is so that we can have other ideas then just build a wall or do nothing it's a two extremities is what it is MIke: Yeah I agree with you and I think like how do you think someone like let's say Schultz were to run and by some miracle he were to win. So now you have, you know, probably a democrat-controlled house or a Republican-controlled Senate, and you have an independent president in the middle. How much do you think that would affect the outcome of issues like this? Matt: I think the the opinion that Schultz is a true centrist is I think it's a little bit skewed because if you look, you know, he's a lifelong Democrat I think it would be similar to like having a 2000 democrat or 2004 Democrat in presidency..He would probably lean towards democratic issues but the the more radical progressive you know Alexandria, Kazuo Cortez Bernie Sanders type of thing I don't think those would be I don't think he would fight for those but the more moderate type of you know Nancy Pelosi would do very well I think if that makes any sense in a Schultz presidency she tries to be progressive but we all know that she was a moderate and she's just switching with the times to keep on staying relevant I think it would lean democratic to be completely honest and then everyone's know on maybe tax issues he'd lean a little more conservative from what I've been able to understand he he's not a huge fan of taxes but he thinks Trump's tax cuts were a little extreme you know top heavy whereas they should have been towards the middle class which I honestly agree with you know if I could have chosen one or the other I as a libertarian with some conservative beliefs as well not a big fan of taxes i live in Illinois one of the most tax states in the nation and I can tell you people are fleeing out of here so we have to find like I said a sweet spot with taxes as well where people are not you know loading out there money to the Cayman Islands to the Bahamas. We need to find something that people are actually willing to pay and it's it's a truly fair and balanced tax, but that's difficult. Mike: But ok so like one of the things I read is the you know, they actually think was Fortune magazine said well you know maybe he can maybe he could help fix this country because you know he's a corporate he's been a corporate executive he's run a large corporation Starbucks of course but then isn't that what they said about Trump? Matt: yes and no, um, I think the fact that Schultz wouldn't carry in very many. You know, opinions. He's not the most he's more of an open minded whereas Trump it's kind of my way or the highway. And some people love that. Some people hate it. I'm not trying to reprimand or trying to praise him for that. But I think that's pretty obvious that people love Trump because he's so close minded and the people hate him for that reason so but I think Schultz is that the type of person that will listen to both sides I almost think that he would be easily influenced for bad and for good just because he he is so open minded but he is a smart guy at the end of the day obviously you can't be where he is today but I think it's kind of interesting that the the democrats primarily are attacking him so much for his success when he came from almost nothing he's he's quite honestly living the democrat you know, the dream of coming from nothing and becoming something but it's a he's being attached..That and I think that's why the democrats are almost losing their mold if that makes any sense. Mike: Well, I think like I was you were saying that I was thinking about how if you are a third party candidate so you know, of course of the major third parties that makes sense and have a big, big enough numbers to make a dent in a run for president, you're talking about either green party or Libertarian Party and the problems that they have getting elected is people say, Well, okay, if I had voted Gary Johnson and is the president he goes into office with no allies on either side. I disagree with that, by the way, he goes in there with no allies. I think that's too simplistic of a concept. Matt: Yeah. Mike: I think that he would definitely have allies because I think what it would do is it would force Congress and Senate to start thinking long term and start thinking about the best interests of the people they represent. Rather than their party line because they're going to have a president who's going to say, Well, okay, the Republicans, you're thinking about the solution this way yours is a democrats your solution is be but like my solution is see kind of a hybrid of a and b. So now what are you going to do? And I think what will happen is for the first time in a long time, you would see kind of that bill clinton cooperation where, you know, Clinton I you know, despite his moral issues, I think he was a pretty darn good president and he he managed to speak to both sides of the aisle and convince one there was an important issue and he needed some support on the on the left, he would go after it when he needed support on the right he would go after and I think that's what you would get with more of a third party slash independent president is someone who would pull support from both sides so that what passes would be something that the majority of our country would buy into. Matt: Do you think people want that though? Like, I mean, I want something similar to that, that I feel if you go on Facebook or Twitter, which obviously isn't necessarily representative to the the small towns and all that. But if you go on Facebook and Twitter that doesn't seem like something that people actually want, they like to pretend like that's what they truly want. But is America in a situation where we truly want cooperation or or do we just want my way or the highway and let's switch for years of being selfish and crying when we don't get what we want. Mike: Well, yeah, you make a great point because I'm very active in the California Libertarian Party. And as a side note of that there's a person that I've met here locally who runs a… well he calls it a Liberty club but it's essentially a chapter of the libertarian party at a city level and he there's a city here in Huntington Beach California you know the Beach Boys made it favorite famous and it's his club meets there and we just had a meeting this past week and they're sitting there talking about how a lot of them were saying hey you know what, you know I wasn't really I'm not a big fan of Trump's tax cuts but it was a step in the right direction and they say that but what I've said and even have an episode out of liberty revealed I think that the libertarians and I do think pretty much every party is like this they're more of a political cult than anything else they they have an ideology and that's what they want and I always tell them like okay guys I understand what you're looking for you're looking for the utopian libertarian society but the reality is you're never going to get that ever it's not going to happen so you need to do is you need to get yourself elected using reasonable ideas. And then once you're elected, show people how you can govern. Like, for instance, I ran for Orange County Supervisor this past election cycle. And one of the things that I told they kept saying, Well, how are you as a libertarian going to make a difference in the county? I said, Well, the first thing I would do, I've reviewed the staff numbers, and they have like, 25 staff members, and they're spending $4 million a year each office that's $20 million on five districts offices a year that, hey, I could probably cut that down to five people per office. So I would reduce the size of my staff and they said, Well, what does that show it? What if it works? Well, if it works, it means we can also reduce the size of government because we just proven that we can do the same job just as efficiently with less people, which thereby saves a lot of money which means that money is available for either cutting taxes or using the money for something like homeless people.It's think that you have to be more pragmatic in your approach and that's the problem you know if you're a republican your your problem I mean, of course we're speaking in absolutes here and absolutes are never you know realistic in society but you're right i think if you were to do a poll I would say more than 80% of Republicans fall in line with the Republican platform and more than 80% of the democrats fall in line with a democrat platform and even I'm going to say 80% of libertarians 80% of Green Party members I think the majority fall in line with the platform and the don't bother to think about the real world implications of the decisions they're trying to force on society and with libertarians it's kind of ironic because I'm not sure if you're aware of this but like when you become a a dues paying member of the Libertarian Party. One of the things that you initial says you will not use us or support any idea that imposes its will by force on anyone So you know you have a non aggression principle and it's great it really is but at the same time they're trying to force their ideology on everybody by saying we're there's one guy I met at convention last year who's running for president and his he says that he'll be the shortest term president ever because he's going to get into the office and then he's going to eliminate the federal government ask yourself you really think the republicans and democrats and house and senate are going to say oh yeah sure let's just eliminate the government we don't need the government anymore and and and that's where it comes down to being more like a cult because they're they're only thinking about their ways the best way I mean if you've ever I don't know if you're religious at all but like religious cults they all say the same thing our way is the way and and so that's what it is you know political party Our way is tthe way and I think really That way is a mixture of all of the ideologies Matt: Yeah, it's actually really interesting how the Foundation of America was, you know, the, the popular phrase is a melting pot. But the thing about a melting pot and I said this on my podcast, too, I'm in a melting pot. Nothing can just remain solid. You can't, you can't entirely remain solid and everything else melts. No, I'm gonna keep my beliefs everyone else you all be open. I mean, you'll be open minded to me. But I'm not going to be open minded to you. I'm not going to understand your opinions you know we all have to mount and I don't think that was necessarily talking about race. I think that was talking a lot about ideology, and in the the foreshadow of this type of thing, I think they knew that something like this will eventually happen and… Mike: So I've really enjoyed this conversation. I think. I think we're in agreement actually more than I thought we would be. So why don't you tell people where, where and how they can find you. Matt: Yes. So I'm on almost every platform, iTunes, Stitcher. Google podcast will be on YouTube next episode and you'll just look up, Unfazed with Matt Plautz. I've got an Instagram at unfazed.podcasts and I'll talk a little bit about politics current events, I'm going to be having guests such as you know as well.Mike said I'm going to be having I'm going to be doing the cardinal sin of having a pastor on that I also want to have a lot of other religions on and just talk a little bit about philosophy and how they look at other religions I think would be interesting and also might be able to get some state representatives possibly even a congressman on so it's gonna be a lot of a lot of everything almost I don't have a set theme you know I'll talk about politics one episode then maybe comedy one episode it's just really whatever is going on and yeah Mike thanks so much for having me Mike: Do you have a website? Matt: we don't have a website yet I host on PodBean right now Mike: I'll put that in the show. I'll put that in the show notes and I encourage my listeners to go listen to and subscribe to your podcast. unfazed and definitely follow you on social media and I I've got your social media links I'll put those in the show notes as well and again it's been a pleasure having you on and I'm sure we'll follow up and have you on again in the near future Matt: Yeah thank you so much Mike: Alright well this has been another episode of liberty revealed If you or a friend or family member wants to find out a little bit more about liberty just go to https://YogisPodcastNetwork.com/libertyrevealed it's all there for you and we appreciate you listening.

Bob Schmidt podcast featuring entrepreneurs, business people and marketers this week talking with Elizabeth Dickinson certified life coach and public speaker as well as author of the book. The concise coaching handbook how to coach yourself and others to get business results and I had a chance to meet Elizabeth a few months ago. Back in New York and had a chance eight, Hennepin conversation and chat a little bit about business and invited around of the podcasts talk about this and you know Elizabeth, I think that a lot of people a lot of self-starters a lot of entrepreneurs and people that are it you know in business for themselves have all these great ideas but sometimes the concise part is is a hard thing for people to get yeah I don't you think that I think the people have a hard time to try to be concise week, at least for myself. I also at taco stuff out there and I could whittled it down and said okay let's just focus in on this one little thing actually very true ruler and ruled McCracken' you folks in the real estate industry and outlets. Also, home remodelers, and a lot of then interesting the problems that they back and turn it in your heart you deal with people who don't get to the point here, and he needed some Texan checks around around that kind of think it is tricky to glow from storm helps to bring somebody out to just kind of rehearsing your head a little thing about what you can save on what your message is to be sure that you don't have to fumble around when you're actually leaving a message or on the phone and I think it's actually helpful. I am just going into and what are the top three things I need to get across in this conversation. Helping organize and train your brain just a little back so that you can do more effective conversation with other people know it is. I could hear was that based on my start of the start of the show. I'm just double checking, you know, it's funny that you brought that up because I know that my son he's 20 and he before he makes a phone called anybody he practices what he wants to say to those people and still nine times out of 10 he says dad is still screwed up. How do you have stuff to say when you're on the radio is and I honestly I don't know just kinda comes to me often because you're a great improviser and you're just ready to go with whatever energy of the conversation is going to be able to allow yourself to everybody. And so they really do think about it a little bit you so much radio experience, you probably don't get nervous. I totally the opposite. I get nervous all the top name yeah and it's it's crazy to think that but I route I really do it, or talking in front of a group of people. I despise that that's one of my least favorite things in the world to do what you I think it's a fear of messing up. I mean honestly, I've given myself permission to make mistakes. You know when it would have done things I said you know just got there, do the best you can do but I still sometimes have a difficult time trying to figure out that or I think that people perhaps are thinking well this guys professionally should do a better job than you really think I don't know. I really don't know. I I've taken classes of to. I actually went back to college as an adult to try to learn new skills and I had a speech class. I did well in the speech class but I think it's just I need to get out of my own head I don't. Maybe this counseling session with a lot of person in your shower. Friendly and welcoming role answers that people come up with more effect that they're more likely to listen to themselves are more likely to act on their own advice on impossible for them to stop thinking about what however he said it so firm so so I'm hoping if we were an actual coaching session, we help a little deeper and see if we could come up with strategies to help you need out how self-critical people are because I went to a real estate seminar a few weeks a few weeks ago there was a young Asian guy, very successful and incredibly successful. He started this whole company which is wholesaling property and so successful at it. He can't even renovate all the properties come his way. Available to other investors. He was Ernest Carol Carol. He just found no idea her nervously in my heart is beating a mile in and finding it difficult to believe the first time I've ever come in and effort in front of a group of people like doing public speaking when he even said it, right afterwards and they sent a thank you need to know a single person out here who would have been able to how you were nervous or that you had never done this before. I think you gave just for you just need to have some more confidence in what you doing and he took my card and he said you're a public speaker, so that means so much to me. You know people come from an acting background then one of the things I said to Mary your people come to place people come to environs and want to like you, with all of those judgment things in your head. You think they hide so you know you can trust and that people want to hear what you want to follow and not sitting there going. You know, being all persnickety in the way that you might be persnickety about yourself, and so I just wish that I could just inject everyone with confidence instead of what I can coach people there but I can't do it you know in their wake everyone across the state of your supercar or superpower you have them. That's what would be my superpower and holy moly but do find a lot of people that that's a problem that a lot of people have is the maybe, maybe not confidence but the fact of talking in front of people are being public. People fear public speaking more than curling crazy guy dear death little bit more than public speaking because I think I don't want to die today or tomorrow. You know I so I will talk to so a little bit crazy. You really understand your people warning the dance that they know what the man know that it's going to be received well and they want to know that their darkness grew up to want to control things you can control is what you say and how you are in the moment. So a lot of it is about finding ways currency compared to the best of your ready to just kinda let it go and be in the moment so is me saying to myself that you know I could just do the best job that you can do it mean is, is that, getting in the moment being coachable or mean or so for yourself what is going to mean something like coach from the Land O Lakes once he was really funny about what grades in offense cheer him up, but it was along the lines a little mantra of it really that important say to myself, I think I can sell it. It really that important. It actually gets used internal anxiety that he was having. And it would stop him from blowing a people which was a problem for him getting into trouble with his supervisor because so I think it's about framing the same each person. It's going to be a little bit different. You know there's working with you. I went into a box where we would go down a little bit deep into your little bit deeper into your unconscious and bring up the wise part of year and say what what is a wise target the widest part of you have to say about that. Good luck trying to find it is what everyone is wearing my was more of a wise ass. I think that I could be a white thing that will get to use it for you Frank for going to find a little routine you can get this kind will come and take away the nerves. It's all about training and experience of being human being in a human body and deal with other people what you would put you on edge strengths Finder and strengths Finder. I really recommend it to people. It's an expense at the Gallup organization put that out there and it's really useful tool when my strengths, but which I can use against any strength which is over you comes a weakness being an achiever. One of my top toppings and achievers just really like measurable progress. Everybody likes measurable progress. Patients found that one of the predictors of happiness for virtually everyone is making some slight sense of making some progress every day. That's really went early in me, and so are going out of town tomorrow and it's now easy opportunities. I fly glider term get those jobs don't you think putting off for forever and filling kinda hard on myself and it puts me in for Kerry get all of these things during the flyleaf. Yes, and I can kind of put me on imagine you know when to ease up for myself sometimes and sometimes you make more progress in earnings and I found this is an achiever, not just as a coaches that sometimes you have to track what I'm doing because I like to give myself credit for the stuff that I have to turn right. You know, if you make a whole bunch of phone calls and you give get the result that you want it like it was all messages or email. People keep calling back and keep missing each other and so nothing gets accomplished or something to remind yourself that Micco's phone calls I made five phone calls I made 10 phone calls today and even if it can result what and what I wanted your remarks to win so I think thinking a different kind of different ways to kindness that you not being too hard on yourself right is is that what is sometimes I've heard a few people say that you start every morning by making your bed is at least you got something done. I think that's a really good point. If you have lists and staff. They often do the hardest thing you may be asked to make the hardest first go through the goal. You literally start the day with more willpower than in the day with and it's kind of finite supply just harder to get harder things done. The later in the day you go so you know if you can get some of the hard stuff off early in the day I can feel better about stuff you know a little bit malleable because sometimes you need a couple of easy wind couple of hard days, easier things done first does not allow that basil one what y

Christ Over All. This is one way of saying that Christ is supreme; that He is preeminent; that there is nothing before Him and there is nothing above Him. Christ is the one who created all things and all things exist for Him. So, Christ Over All speaks to who Jesus is in relation to all things and all people. But, Christ Over All can also speak the place we as the people of God should give Jesus in our hearts. As the people of God, as people who have been saved through the sacrifice of Jesus, we should be a people who recognize the supremacy of Jesus and who maintain hearts that exalt Him Over All. The letter of Paul to the Colossians helps us both in seeing who Jesus is and in applying the impact of our position ‘in Him’ to our daily lives. Colossians reminds us that Christ is over all and calls us to Iive in light of the realty that Christ is over all.

Listen to Wendy talk with Susanne from Sweden about her successful journey on Heal Endometriosis Naturally, 12 Week Online Foundation Membership Program with Wendy K Laidlaw. Discover more about how this may help you and download your FREE Top 5 Jump Start Tips at Https://HealEndometriosisNaturally.com   Read full transcript below: Wendy: Good afternoon. My name is Wendy K Laidlaw from Heal Endometriosis Naturally.com. I'd like to thank Susanne for being with me today. She's agreed to be interviewed about her experience with Heal Endometriosis Naturally book (Heal Endometriosis Naturally Without Painkillers, Drugs or Surgery, and the online 12 Week Foundation Program.  Welcome, Susanne. Susanne: Thank you very much. Wendy: Great to have you here. You look lovely and healthy today all the way in Sweden there. And so yes, thank you so much for agreeing to be interviewed. It's always such a joy to have a chat with women who have obviously experienced the book and experiences of the program. And I just wonder -- this is where I can ask you some questions about your experience. So maybe you could just tell people a little bit about your background, just how you first heard about me, about the book and then a bit more about the 12-week foundation program. Susanne: Okay. It's so much so -- it's difficult to know where to start, but my background is that 14 years ago I had the first flare of endometriosis and actually I was lucky enough to get diagnosed quite soon. I only had it for a couple of months before I got my diagnosis and that was through [stutters] Wendy: Laparoscopy? Susanne: That's right. Susanne: Then they took away three cysts. That's what they could see and after that they wanted to put me on a medicine to get me into the menopause. And I did some reading about it and I was working with health, actually, some alternative therapies, and the side effects of the drug they wanted to give me -- I can't remember its name -- but it was horrible, I thought, and back then there was not so much information on the internet but there were a few, what do you call it -- not blogs but...losing the name. It was a group of people having endometriosis. They were connected and you could only see the bad things, how horrific everything was. When they got this medication they got better from the endometriosis but they got a horrific side effects so they couldn't go to work anyway. And I thought that's not my way. I'm not gonna do it that way and so I went to a couple of different alternative therapists and they led me into thinking about if it had something to do with my stomach. And I usually had a bloated stomach.  I was sensitive for different kind of foods. I knew that, and when I asked the doctors to see if there was a connection between my intestines, the flora in my intestines with bacterias and the endometriosis. They said, "That costs too much money. We can't do that. You need to get me scientific studies that there is a connection before we can do that kind of research on you." And then I thought, well, I need to do this my own way, and through hair analysis I got to know that I had too much manganese in my body. It was actually 80 times as much as you're supposed to have and we found that I was from our water. There's a filter but it needed to be adjusted to get the manganese, so a nutritionist helped me with detoxing my body. I was practicing yoga to be able to stand the pain. And that actually helped me get well, so now after having got more and more knowledge about estrogen dominance and everything around, I think that it was not just the water that was the problem but the way I treated my body helped me out of the condition. So I've had 13 very good years after that. I've had two kids. I did have three miscarriages in between the kids, but two healthy kids and I thought that endometriosis, although the doctor says that it's a chronic disease, I thought that that's not in my life anymore. I was so worried that my daughter might get it so I started to do some reading last autumn so that I could have more lot knowledge about it. And the scary part is that my endometriosis actually flared up again after not having felt those specific feelings of pain that endometriosis gives me. And so I thought well, I've been well once. I just need to do the same things again and I will get better again. But it didn't come back quickly and I was a bit stressed I thought what what is wrong and I didn't know what triggered the endometriosis this time. And so I was searching the internet and I found your page and your really nice offer to get the book for free so I sent for it. I started reading it and this time I was worrying that I might not get rid of the endometriosis if I don't go in and do a surgery to take away the cysts. But when I read about serrapeptase and your experience with that, I thought great, that gives me hope again. And last time I went on a very strict diet. I didn't have any flour, not wheat, not any grains at all and this time when I read more about your experiences with wheat and gluten it was actually easier than last time. So I went back to a quite strict diet. And what else did I do? Well yes, I started to do some journaling just from reading your book. Not at all the three pages as you encouraged us to do now, but I started to write pain scores and what my activities were and what the outcome was and then I thought now it would be really nice to get a support, to get help to work it through, so that's why I entered the 12-week foundation program. Wendy: Yes, that was fantastic that you reached out. So when you applied for the Foundation Program I think you said that you were just trying to pick up from where you'd left off the last time. You had tried to manage it through diet and serrapeptase. So what in particular, when you're saying you wanted support, what did you feel that you needed support in? Because obviously you've been very successful before. You felt something had changed this time and you weren't able to identify the trigger, what had caused it to flare up, but what in particular made you sort of reach out for support through the foundation program? Susanne: Well, I knew that there was something that I missed, so I needed to have a detective to help me go through everything. I had -- when my new flare up--  it was in September 2017. And it was at worst in December, January, February. I was bedridden for eight days after my period and with pain scores from two to six so it wasn't as bad as 14 years ago. I was bedridden for two years - no, two weeks every month and the pain scores up to ten sometimes and that was such a depressing time. I had a really difficult time before I made it all turn. And I knew I don't want to go there this time. And when I started the program I was down at pain score from zero to two so I was quite good but I wasn't satisfied. I knew that life can be better. I do want to be able to plan what to do because that is so sad, not being able to plan anything, not being able to promise the kids to go there, to take them there, to be with them because you might need to stay on the sofa all day.  So I thought, well, I need I need the support, a detective to know what is causing it this time. And I am really happy that I did join because during this time, during the 12 weeks, I was still making progress. In the beginning of the program it was more repetition what I had done before, and of course you have written it all in the book but you always get new things. You see things from a different perspective and it was very good and I felt better and stronger. But I think it was four weeks into the program and that my mother got very ill and we needed to go in and out to the emergency with her and it was very stressful and not being able to help her. She wasn't in a state that she she could take in what we are we were telling her. And that situation would probably have caused me to go backwards into the more difficult stage of the endometriosis because of all the stress and because you don't -- well, I shouldn't say you don't but I knew I know myself and if somebody needs my help I go there and help them and I skip the things that are important for me. For this stage I needed to to do certain things for myself and you helped me stay there to do the basic things and to actually coach me through this difficult time with my mother, and that's something that I never would have expected. I'm sorry. I get a bit emotional now. It was so good having you, to talk to you, and to support me in the Program well, I needed to take some some more digestive enzymes in that period and that's something that I wouldn't have been thinking about myself so it was great and actually now my mother is much better and her situation has stabilised and I think that the most things about her illness and your Program and support has helped me. It was actually very good timing. It has helped me to get more in contact with my emotions and to get much deeper into the relationship with my old family. Wendy: And I know that was very important to you because it was such a shame that you just started the (Foundation) Program and then this had happened. But equally, it was great that you were open to do the support, I keep I referring to it as the ‘oxygen mask’ scenario, where if you don't put on your own oxygen mask and don't look after yourself then you can't help other people. You then become very very ill. But a lot of women with Endometriosis are fantastic caregivers, very sensitive and perceptive, and aware of other people, and whilst that is a lovely quality, sometimes -- I know I was guilty of it too -- of doing it too excesses, where I had nothing left to give but I kept giving out to other people.  And I think that certainly one aspect of the (Foundation) Program is remembering you have to look after yourself so you can help other people. And with your mother being so ill, and you're right, normally in these situations then you forget to eat and you forget to look after yourself and it's just remember to keep the basics. And full credit to you. You kept turning up on our calls and you kept turning to the group calls and you you kept going. Because I do believe that life throws you obstacles in the way.  Sometimes on this new journey when you're trying to heal yourself and it can be very, very frustrating. So what about the emotional element you talked about; developing your relationship with your emotions? And I know and I'll share this for people who are listening -- you found it quite difficult to cry before, didn't you? You were saying that to show your emotions in that way felt, felt challenging for you and now you feel a bit more comfortable with yourself, to show your emotions. So thank you for being so vulnerable on this interview with us. But maybe you want to share a bit more about your relationship with your emotions now? Susanne: It's not easy to say words on it, but the journaling has helped me a lot to sort out my feelings and to structure my feelings and to to prioritize what to do next because in that situation where we were it's such a chaos. And nothing really works as usually. All the routines disappear> And the journaling and doing it in the morning, it was so good. And I know that you say in the beginning of the program that most people think that that's the most difficult thing to do. I thought it was difficult as well even though I started before, but then it was just some tiny notes. And after a while I did it in the evening you told me the importance of doing it in the morning.  I started doing it in the morning after my yoga session, which is something that I wouldn't let go now. It helps me so much. But now I actually do it before my yoga. I do it right after waking up and I have -- I'm surprised that I do remember so many dreams. I think that it's almost impossible that I have dreamt as much as I do now earlier. But probably and I know now that if I do something else before my journaling, if I go around do things for 10 minutes, the dreams disappear. I don't remember them anymore. But right after you wake up they're still in your head and it's very interesting to -- most of them are strange. They don't make sense at all, but now I've been going back look through my journaling and I see that it's almost scary because I saw things in my dreams have actually developed to be true. To be honest, it doesn't make sense when you write this but after a while and you see that, wow, I could see that coming. And many science I I've been thinking about "Am I doing this right?" the journaling, but you said that there is no right and wrong. Just try not to be judgmental and I've had that in my mind. And, well, many of my emotions, they have as soon as I get the courage to write them down, they are not scary anymore. As soon as I write them I can work through them, see if there is something I need to do, somebody I need to contact, next step with somebody in a relationship, or if it's somebody something I just can let go. And quite often it is it is something that I don't need to carry around. I can just let it go and it gives me a sense of being much stronger, wiser, calmer, and by that it's been easier to talk to friends and relatives about emotions. When we talk it's not just about daily things. We tend to talk about more emotional things and and sometimes I cry. Sometimes my friend cries. Sometimes we both cry, but it's just nice. It's not any hysterical crying, just transforming feelings that are released and it feels so good. Wendy: Weah that's fantastic. And I should share that obviously, as you mentioned, the journaling is one part of the three daily basics or the foundation program and there are other layers of changes that we we make throughout the program, but the journaling was a challenge for you at the beginning and it is a challenge for everybody because normally when you've got endometriosis and your chronic pain and you're literally just getting through your life, just taking the time to journaling feels counterintuitive. But what the purpose is, and I'm glad to hear it's the same for you, is that you're getting in touch with your emotions. They're not big and they're not scary and you're learning to make the connection between what is happening in your emotions and how that manifests or how that resides in your body. And how would you say the program, the 12 week foundation program has helped you with regards to the relationship with your body? Susanne: I don't know. That was a difficult question. Wendy: Do you think through the journaling and through the education and the webinars that you maybe feel a bit more confident about your body? If there are any signs and symptoms in any aspect, you know have a better relationship with your body? Would you feel as well as your emotions? Susanne: Well, as I -- bodies are very much in my interest. I trust bodies to heal themselves. I've always had that in mind but it's always more difficult when it happens to yourself and you don't see the whole picture. It's easier to just stay in one corner and it's very easy to become a victim. And it's also difficult when it's a close friend or relative that is sick or ill or hurt in any way. It's so much easier to see what other people could do to get better. But, well, as I said, I've always had that with me since I was a kid, that the body is amazing at healing itself and now it was so good to have you as a as a coach to help me with this wider perspective to have a look at my body. Wendy: I think it was the multimodal approach to the program that was very important to me because I was unaware of how your emotions would affect your hormones and how symptoms and signs in your body could be different -- types of signs and symptoms that we're giving out different messages. Different emotions we're giving different messages in relation to the body, and I think that's what I hear from you and I hear a lot of the women in the program, is they develop this confidence, not only within their own instincts, their own emotions. They're more comfortable with their emotions, recognizing their emotions are messengers, they're telling them things, and then also been able to tune in to their body in a slightly different way than they've done before because the body before was invariably screaming out to them in pain when something was wrong but any pain and any symptoms are signs and messengers that there's something there that needs attention, and that's as you said earlier in the beginning, that's where you and I work together as detectives to try and fine-tune different things. But I think what's been lovely in your particular experience of the foundation program is, as you said, you really understood the body is an amazing thing, which is probably going to be hard for some women to hear if they're writhing around in pain and bad with endometriosis. They may not feel that loving towards their body right now, but when they learn what's causing the pain, because there's always a cause -- it's cause and effect -- if they identify what the causes are and remove that, then as you said the body is an amazing thing and will heal itself. But what I've heard from you is that you really appreciate the emotional component, which is not something that tends to get talked about, and dealing with that and then becoming more comfortable with your emotions and things So if anyone was listening and considering joining the foundation program, what what would you be saying to them? What are the key aspects, apart from the journaling and the power shakes thing? What, for you, has been most significant or important aspect that you would take away from the foundation program? Susanne: Well, I was thinking about joining for a long time. As new and had this belief about the body, and I knew that I had been healing myself before I thought I can do this on my own again. But after a while I thought, no, I don't have time to do this and when you're in pain you're tired and I thought I got some kind of dizziness, so it was difficult to do a lot of reading and studying on my own. And in the beginning it felt a little bit like I was giving up by joining, but as soon as I had joined the program I thought, "Oh shit, why didn't I do this earlier?" because it's such a relief to have somebody to talk to you with the experience of healing endometriosis yourself. And, well, you were talking about the emotions. I had done everything I thought possible with the products and physical stuff, but I didn't have a clue about the emotions. I did I did a lot of relaxation training and mental training because I know that mental training has helped me very much before, both in sports situations and in in daily life. But this is another way of looking at the emotions and, well, one of the first things, actually -- I think it happened the first week -- was that you advised me to include my family. And I thought that I don't want to drag them down into this boring and -- well, I can't really find the words for it, but this black hole that endometriosis is for me. I did everything to provide for them,  to have a good time. I just put myself in a sofa and said, "Did you go out and do this?" and my husband and my kids they went out to see friends and do fun things while I was in the sofa. And I didn't really inform the kids about what was going on and the first week I realized that I'm so stupid. Of course, of course they want to know what's wrong with me and as I'm as soon as I did that that was the first relief, actually. And I get emotional again. But I've got a six year old and a 11 year old and this six year old, he was listening but he thought, "Oh, can we do something else now?" when I was trying to tell them about the disease what I was doing and that I was getting help through this foundation program. But anyway, after that little family session it was so much easier and that was the first stage of my emotional trip, actually, to let them in and to -- well, the idea I'm not carrying the burden all by yourself. It's not a sign of being strong, trying to fix everything yourself. I have learned that it's more courageous and you're stronger if you can ask for help and if you're willing to take help. Wendy: Yeah, and I think he done so brilliantly in that regard because I know that that was very difficult for you at the beginning. And again, that's very common with women with endometriosis. I knew I was the same. It felt like a sign of weakness to ask for help. I felt like a burden. I felt like a drain. I didn't feel very good about myself either when I was in a chronic stages of pain and lying on in bed. But I think when you have the support to be able to say and explain it does take more courage to share with your family -- this is the situation, this is what I need from you, and would you help support me through this program -- because I want to get myself -- well, I want to live my life again and sometimes, you know, it's even just getting support and the language and how to approach it, ow to do with them because sometimes you're just getting through the day dealing with the pain without trying to think about how you might communicate that. But I agree, it is definitely takes more courage to share you know what's going on. And that's why in the first week of the program I encourage you all to sit down with your families and let them watch the video of the laparoscopy. Suddenly they've got a whole new perspective on the laparoscopy operation and what's going on in your inside. And that's, again, just part of building your confidence, building up your voice and helping you share your emotions. So if anyone was considering joining the program, what would you say to them? What would be your your parting words to people if they're maybe struggling on their own at the moment? They're maybe following my book and maybe taking them longer than they'd like. What would you say about the foundation program? Susanne: Well, I would say don't hesitate. I really recommend. It's the best support to really get going because there are always things in your life that turns up. And then it's so easy to get your actions for endometriosis on hold and that's dangerous to do that. But the program is the best way to really keep fighting and the twelve weeks, they passed quite fast, and it's difficult to really see the difference all the time. And although I just did the basic things in the program for five weeks and then I had a lot to catch up, it was so interesting now in the end to look back in the journaling, see what I've done, how I felt and to reflect on how I have changed. And it's not only the pain score in the endometriosis that has decreased. There are so many more things that has happened and the things that I wrote at the beginning of the program, what I would do when I felt pain free, I've already started to do. I achieved them. Yeah, and by then I felt like a dream, a dream that might be impossible even though I did have this feeling about natural healing, that it would work. But it was still a dream that I didn't know if it would come true ever and now they have come true, many parts of it. And it's it feels like I'm the boss of my life now. And I think that one reason that my endometriosis flared up again was that I had lost contact with myself, both by caring more for the kids than for myself, and I had a job that was quite demanding, a lot of traveling, and I had a bad conscious of leaving the kids so much. So when I was home I just spent time with them and there was never time for me, for myself, and in this program you really need to look after yourself. What do I need? And get in touch with yourself. Now it feels so -- I can't find the word for it, but it's so natural. It's not strange at all. It's just as it's supposed to be and instead of just running around in circles doing what other people want me to do, now I'm the boss in my life. And I didn't think that would be an outcome or this program. I was just looking forward to a pain-free life. Now it feels like it that is a small thing. That is the greatest thing when you are in pain but now I even get more so that's something to look forward to if you're planning to join the program. Wendy: Fantastic. And I think that's it. I remember feeling had this great desire to get well when I was bedridden but didn't know how to do it so that's what I put everything that I learned into my book., by putting into the program. And people just have to plug in to the various steps that I've taken and learn from what I learned and not have to just struggle to find out these things themselves. And as you said, there's normally a number of different elements that we need to look at any one given time and it's hard to do that when you're on your own. And then obviously we do have the group Q&As every two weeks, as well. How do you find that coming together with other women that are going through the program? Susanne: That it's very good. You get a perspective and they take up things that I haven't thought about that turns out to be important for me as well. And it's very important not to feel alone and even though I've just listened to them during these group calls it feels like we're a team. We're fighting together and it's so great to hear that they're getting better as well. Wendy: I feel that that's really important. Women with endometriosis -- and I knew I felt exactly the same. I felt so alone, terribly alone, and I made a vow, I made it my mission that once I got well that I would write what worked for me and make sure that there was enough support in place for women so that they felt part of a group and a community that was not just talking about the pain or the symptoms or surgery but actually talking about getting well and healthy and and getting their life and their body back. Because they can be so designing when you got a flare-up or when you know you're bedridden again and you don't know why. But as you say, when you're going to the program yourself -- that's why it's 12 weeks because it does take time to start to see the changes with planting seeds along the way whilst removing and swapping out any offending products or people or foods or anything, depending on what's what's the issue for you -- but having a support and hearing other people, again, it just makes you feel you're part of something and not alone enough. That's a big thing> But thank you so much for taking the time out to chat me today. I would say if anyone is interested in getting more information on the foundation program, it is over a 12-week. It's an online membership program with 12 one-on-one appointments with me, group calls, handouts, downloads, Facebook group. You get all the support that you need. Please go to HealEndometriosisNaturallyCourse.com or go on to HealEndometriosisNaturally.com and you can click on details there on how to join up. Equally, if anybody would like to get a free paperback copy of my book which lays out my story and a step-by-step guide of what worked for me then go on to Https://HealEndometriosisNaturallyBook.com and you can order your FREE copy there (I just ask you to pay the shipping and handling). Wendy: Susanne, thank you so much for taking the time out. I know there will be so many women to get so much encouragement and hope and from hearing your story. And full credit to you. You've had a lot of challenges thrown your way throughout the program, but you stuck with it, you kept going, you didn't give up and I'm so pleased that you've seen the benefits on the program that you have. Susanne: Thanks, and I want to encourage those with the Endometriosis that I'd never give up because it is true the body is going to heal itself if you give it the opportunity and it's so great to get the life back again. So go for it! Wendy: Well, thank you so very much, Susanne for sharing. Take care. We'll speak soon.   Want to learn more; Download your FREE Top 5 ‘Jump Start’ Tips  at Https://HealEndometriosisNaturallycom

Show Notes00:00 - Introductions2:00 - Our nameless cat producer bailed on the show, so Jon and Zay are looking for a new producer. Applications, which are now open to dogs as well, can be submitted here4:00 - What the hell is this show, anyway?Fancy Rhino // The commercial production company Isaiah started with Drew Belz.Previous Projects produced by IsaiahHUNTER GATHERER // The OrchardTrailer // New York Times Review // Watch it onlineDAYVEON // FilmRiseTrailer // LA Times Review // Watch it onlineNEVER GOIN' BACK // A24Trailer // Variety Review // See it in theaters August 3, 2018!Shorts Written and Directed by IsaiahThree YearsChattanooga On SaleBroken Mast11:00 - Isaiah talks about the the plot of ROLLERS.Sandtown Children of Praise Choir W/ Toby MacDC Talk’s Jesus Freak Music Video // Video of DC Talk LiveVintage Fancy Rhino video from May 11, 2012We used to make a video every Friday just for fun. We called them Fancy FridaysJon’s Favorite Movie - 8½ // Watch it hereThe Face Melting Scene from Raiders of the Lost ArkCredits and Personal Links:A Mama Bear Studios Production // Mama Bear Studios WebsiteProduced and Edited by: Isaiah SmallmanExecutive Producer: Jon SchimpfOpening music: "The Get Down," Produced by Summer DregsOutro music: Composed and Recorded by Tom Paulus and Max BelzCover Art by: Nate GiordanoShow Website | ThatWay.fmShow Twitter | @ThatWayPodJon TwitterIsaiah InstagramIsaiah IMDBIsaiah’s Twitter (which he never uses)Isaiah LinkedInLonger Podcast Description“I Guess We’ll Do it That Way” is a weekly conversational comedy show where Isaiah Smallman and Jon Schimpf talk about life, movies and Zay's progress as he directs his first feature film, Rollers, a dramatic comedy about a struggling concert venue.When they're not on a random tangent, Jon grills Isaiah about the actual process of making an independent movie. How do you get actors to sign on? Where do you get money? What do producers do? What happens if the movie's terrible?! At the end of the day there are things Isaiah doesn't know... like will this movie even get made? But that's the real fun of the show. Because when you're making a movie you start with a vision and you make a plan. Then you realize your plan was never actually going to work and you begin the real job: making choices, finding compromises, and trying to build your vision in spite of the constant hailstorm of reality raining down on your parade.Episodes of “I Guess We’ll Do it That Way” will also feature:Interviews with members of the Rollers teamQ&A with listenersInterviews with industry experts (lots of famous people)There might even be the occasional movie review!TRANSCRIPT (Probably a mess)so I have to say this is a a small man and you're listening to I guess we'll do it that way podcasts right call my buddy John each week to check in on my progress as a direct my first feature film is presented by mama bear studios our mission is to create entertaining works of art that explore our humanity alright reserves of one I hear you Monday of baby all the early in his name **** yeah this sounds amazing although quit bumping your Mike bumpy make dumb person what's gonna my men I'm I'm just pumped about this park as did it is such a pleasure to be speaking with you at this very moment I can't think of anything else I'd rather be doing a great deal think were a little late to the podcast game that did I don't know is there an end to the podcast came I mean that implies that there's a that there's a finite and to it we're gonna have headsets on sitting on a couch is next we're not gonna be talking to each other so yeah I think the podcast dies mmhm VR headsets or you know whatever whatever the next thing is we're gonna be there's gonna be robots that simulate podcasts me like OD one funny podcast cool these two robots are hilarious and they're way better than any two real people do you think that would ever happen absolute did they make videos have you seen these videos that are Amazon add videos they pull out I dont tent yeah do that it's completely automated they they have an algorithm that pulls out like the top ten things in a category being sold on Amazon and the A. I. makes an ad like it makes in a video at it's unreal that scares me a little bit yes alright let's move on %HESITATION John would you like to tell everyone who you are I'm little Johnny bear and let's do this thing that is only there are you the Big Bear the Papa bear mama bear the baby there and how do you like your porridge got a little bit of a crisis man I'm I'm the Big Bear here but our little friend are little furry friend get reunited just less than an hour ago with her real mom little Kitty cat is going to produce the show I'm doing it on the fly myself she stepped outside this afternoon and who should be they're kidding me now who should be there but her actual mother I'm pretty sure it was her mother send to cool full grown cat they met they bonded immediately and %HESITATION she couldn't be less interested in me anymore she still coming food but we're in crisis mode here man I'm gonna go ahead and say this right now and I'm not a litigious person but I didn't sign a contract with her so that she could just walk out the middle of the show I think we got a case against the mom cat a really well I guess we gotta find another cat to produce the show because I have all the controls were configured for cat paws there are so many so many stray cats running around here and I'm not healthy one extremely she may want to train another cat I may I may I don't want to train another cat to be a producer I was kind of like all those years of training I don't know if I want to go through that again this is the level that it is the thirty seven minutes we spent on Tuesday training her most of it was a sexual harassment class the cats get feisty you got it you really got to make sure that they understand what boundaries are they start to breed just about the same time as their eyes fully open the just immediately start banging out our cats hang in baby cats haven't baby cats it's a wild cat rolled out there it's a cruel maybe we should try to talk you know what I cannot imagine a dog walking out on us maybe we should train a dog to be a producer they are much much more loyal yeah well so this is a this is the show I guess we'll do it that way %HESITATION John I feel like maybe you should take a quick stab at explaining to our many many listeners mom what the show is and why they're listening to us right now days working on a movie and we decided that we're going to get together and discuss that and any other topic related to it and we're gonna let you the millions and millions of Americans and internationals listening right now you're going to get a sneak peek a glimpse into our conversations billions potentially I'm making a movie as you pointed out I'm excited about making that movie I've been making movies for awhile I've produced a number of movies but I've never directed a feature of Bob directed lots of other stuff but I am excited about actually chronicling a little bit of that process because I actually know surprisingly little about certain aspects of the process even if some of the movies that I've helped produce because things just flip by you know and there's not always time to actually like going to death and that's the kind of stuff that I think maybe someone would be interested in listening to there's one guy in Wisconsin right now who is now make it for that one guy I will do teddy Bronson this is for you baby sure voice I love you're wrong Sheboygan strong for ever thank you teddy Bronson for being our one fan I hope that this is an informative and fun experience for you and please donate teddy teddy we were desperate our cat just walked out on a steady we got to train a dog now right after we spay and or neutered that animal and that's going to cost more money teddy we're in a tight spot says that before we start you need to tell me and everyone or anyone listening what you do how you got here why you're making a movie and while you don't trust me barely are are one producer already ran out your fifty percent of this operation so you're fifty percent to blame okay I'll send you my resume I studied English at a precise TGS unheard of Christian liberal arts college in the south east I did not go to film school I thought about it but I wasn't gonna get in any the good ones and I study English read some excellent excellent books like %HESITATION I don't know you're struggling to come up with one title I skipped a lot of them I hear I read a lot of Shakespeare I read a lot of Shakespeare I skipped a lot of Shakespeare no I said the English I I started making stuff and like middle school you know I started just with a handy cam and all but %HESITATION starting in in college I started a Film Festival with some some folks including to rebels who I then right when I was finishing college I started a commercial production company with and we kind of grew that over the years you know a I guess over the course of like four years it got to you got pretty big we had about maybe twenty people or so working for us fall time including some freelancers and on top of that and that was when I kind of started to realize that I actually want to make movies and not make advertising for the rest of my life and I started talking to some investors in the process actually I should say we also produced a feature documentary that was set in Chattanooga it's called dhimmi world and in the process they started talking to some investors that we met very early on in life the company within the first like nine months of starting it that was the company's fancy right now by the way you can look it up and will put a link in the show notes but basically I started getting ancestor realizing that my true passion was making movies and I've had to figure out kind of way to do that I start talking to our investors and %HESITATION they were like yeah we think the idea that you have for kind of how to set up this this company is a really good one %HESITATION let's try some stuff in it but you know we can talk at a different time about kind of what the actual model was but basically yes we started %HESITATION producing producing movies and writing about scripts in the very first one we did was call hunter gather directed by a guy named Josh Lucy and it went to south by which was cool and you can actually watch that on I tunes and all the other things that flexes well willing to it the next one we did was call Davey on that was at Sundance and also got a theatrical release and is also on Netflix and everything iTunes obviously I'd love for you to buy on iTunes but you don't have to and then the most recent thing that we produced is called never gone back that was at Sundance this past year and it's getting released on August third in theaters so that's kind of like a little bit of my background and in the meantime I've been writing and producing a lot of other stuff that's just still you know kind of %HESITATION in process so can we find something that you have written and directed our yeah absolutely %HESITATION yeah I'll link to that's a great question I've done a lot of shorts %HESITATION there's probably two or three that I am most likely to to to want to show off broken masters one three years is another one and %HESITATION I like chatting on sale to diversity training on sale all Ali I have fun but I will it's very goofy it's very goofy I'll plow put on the album on the links did you make all these in Chattanooga yeah yeah I did and where do you live now do you live in Chattanooga I live in Las Vegas sunny beautiful seventy seven degrees Hollywood belly of the beast just soak in it and I'm looking at a palm tree right now how long have you been it is it is the ability to be six months so not too long not too long nam of fresh cookie I'm like still melting a little bit what's the biggest difference between the beautiful beautiful southeast and sunny California they you know it's kind of similar everyone in that you know there's a lot of crazy conservatives in the southeast that want to like split off their states yeah you know kind of from the union you're talking about me right now is that what you want John I'm not really part of a bullet Johnny part of a militia yesterday now not yet but I'm interested which one would you join if you joined one I'd make one o'toole I can not for it like and not crazy racist militia like a just a true equal opportunity libertarian militia I'm trying to turn Tennessee into New Jersey that's my that's my one more malicious goal as you could just move to New Jersey although I don't know why he'd ever do that a million years beautiful state is that mean no no no it's %HESITATION it's a misunderstood state you know it's some it's because I have some pretty rolling hills beaches and the people are just lovely famous for their hospitality just like the south have you met Bruce Springsteen and if so what did he say to him every New Jersey and when you're born meets bird Springsteen it's state law you have to meet him I shook his hand and said hello Sir he before my circumcision he's gotten pretty good at that then it's New Jersey think he holds the work he might hold the world record for most circumcisions performed is tied yeah when did they enact this law %HESITATION whenever he was born nineteen sixty seven I'm young circumcisions it wasn't very good when he started cemex said says eight what's the process of this film right now okay stage of the of the film are you in right now the film's co rollers I scribe server that film is called rollers rollers it's ours it's about rollers to ecstasy what is it about it's a comedy and it is about a historic concert venue called rollers this story kind of follows the three main characters Rufus Maddie and Jane roof isn't matter your brother and sister they bought rollers sort of saved it from the the jaws of real estate developers who were going to tear down the river do that because their parents died and they came in to not ton of money but enough to sort of get into some trouble put a down payment on this place and we can revitalize it and they have a number of really great years a lot of really great stuff happens a lot of bands kind of come out and and get big you know by sort of starting there but with the story mostly takes place about ten years after they buy it and things are not great Maddie's ready to move on with their life Ruth this is probably wants to move on with his life but cannot really allow himself to do that because he spent too much of his time in an emotional energy and invest too much of his identity and and building this place and now you know meeting failure is %HESITATION is not really an option in Jane his best friend who has a lot of history with kind of comes back and is this drawn from a personal story do you have some experience at a venue or something I do you know I don't have specific this experience at venue I did perform a lot as a kid I was in a well acquire it was it was different I was in a gospel choir we we we toward all over the country you can look it up sand town children of praise I should link to a video verbal you saying in this in this choir I did for years I grew up in west Baltimore there are we cut we cut rates on them loaded when I went to said small Christian liberal arts college I met people who I did not know who knew who I was now when they when they heard that like not my name but like when they heard that I was in sand town there like on my gosh I saw you when I was eleven that's insane isn't that weird did you make any money from it now it was like a nonprofit us somebody was made now there's no money there is no money unbelievable it was you had some notoriety had some celebrity in this yeah we performed at some some big festivals and Bonner and I think the biggest crowd was seventy three thousand people and that's not a joke whoa that is not a joke isn't that crazy that isn't insane that's a lot of people this artist that was kind of helping us a little bit gave us like half of his headlining slot who is the artist Michael W. Toby mac did your our DC talk of baby who hasn't Jesus freak baby Jesus freak yeah I remember how that song goes off and not really actually give me a lack of trying to remember we should hold up on you should pull it up that is going to bring back horrifying memories of other pulled up right now I've just being proselytized around a campfire by an over eager kid who went to a college like we did yeah that was never quite ours style hold you have altar calls did you have an altar call where you and so it was not like that it was very poppy it was kind of fun preaching is there preaching interspersed yeah can you hear that of this bring back so much sadness what are they doing right now one of these guys I really don't know rumbling down the apartment next to Los Angeles maybe we should have Toby mac on the show we think of that is you still perform I don't know let's find out there talking about what he's up to Toby we know your live shows give us a call tunes retired to the song it features this man so may I politely anyway having kids do you think were converted because of that song who dozens I don't know if that was their audience was that their audience I'm sure some kid look through the liner notes and converted okay moment of truth here hit me I really hope that the movie that I'm making I hope it's really good I hope it's not the kind of thing that anyone like looks back on twenty years from now and thinks yeah he tried that's the risk you take I hope people look back on and they're like damn that's good yeah that's the risk you take that is the risk I take it's it's a very scary risk I'm terrified actually I am I'm not terrified to the extent that I'm not gonna do it but it's it's scary I mean I've already put so much effort because okay so I I don't have a super personal connection to venues specifically right but I a lot of the emotional stuff does come from very personal place which is a I didn't you know this is weird I didn't totally realize this until I was writing my director statement which is a whole thing you know like when you're trying to pitch the movie around you put a book together and typically you included director statement it's kind of like this is why I'm writing this or this is why I think I'm the director that should be making this and I was thinking about it I was like man this whole thing is about letting go of something right and I knew kind of that all of the the the real root of it was me letting go of the business that I started you know this business fancy right now I had to I had to let go in order to kind of start mama bear numbers that obviously the production company that I now you know run that is %HESITATION you know it's producing this podcast and all that kind of stuff but thanks guy had to I had to leave the answer right now and I will and I chose to leave it right before someone who I will not name but an executive that we kind of hired to come in and run the thing nearly killed it heartland and that was it was Harvey strikes again biggest mistake of your career you can say that again he was toxic three months ago but he was cheap so everyone knew and now it was we thought maybe he had repented and we were wrong by low side that's what you guys thought yeah we bought low and sold lower but we thought we had this other guy I'm sure if you really want to find out who it is you can %HESITATION he did not do a good job he was very bad at running our company and she almost ruined it why do thanks to him in the first place well because we were we were ready to go to the next level and frankly felt like we were not the people that were capable of maybe doing that from a business standpoint from a business standpoint this guy was a hot shot like big time executive creative director vice president level at a major global agency and we thought if anybody can start locking down major deals because we were doing a lot of work with a fortune five hundred companies like Nike and office depot and Mohawk flooring and lodge cast iron and Disney at times and we thought how do we go from where we are to the next level we gotta get a big we gotta get a Big Boy in here we gonna get a grown up in the mix how old are you guys at this time twenty five babies babies little we've already been doing it for four years at that point that's amazing that so young we were babies and you guys were making money right you're making money you're doing well yeah we were making money we were getting rich we're making money we remain you had a successful business we were mostly reinvesting the money back into the business to grow that's how we got big you know right but it was a legit business yeah and and we so I don't think you guys are men and I like the halls yeah we were we were doing a good job and then I thought this is when you know drew my business partner that there's another thing that he's kind of still noodling on %HESITATION which I'll let him talk about one day but basically the idea was we are gonna make movies you know and this guy came along it was like holy smokes we were just gonna kinda leave the business **** nilly but like if anybody can handle this thing it's this guy right that was not the case but by the time it became clear what was going on we had already started my where we were already in the middle of producing hunter gather we had already done a bunch of other stuff invested money in things and I wasn't couldn't just walk away and so it was a very difficult process of of drew and I and our festers and everyone involved or or keep employees and everybody kind of coming to grips with that where the business was and I'm happy to say you know it it survived it's doing really well it's great it's much smaller than it was which I think is what it always should have been it's not that we won't grow again but I think we learned some really hard lessons and we've got an incredible core team and it's a great place and I was actually just back there a few days ago and in Chattanooga and it's a phenomenal business I mean they're working with huge great companies and and making really terrific work but it also just wasn't who I was you know you don't want getting you dump this character %HESITATION we got rid of them well we dumped him so hard do and he went back to sterling in brown or wherever he worked what happened yeah Gail who knows who even knows I don't know he's there certainly not in jail he's prime making beaucoup money somewhere just raking it in but the movie is really it it's it's totally fictionalized but it is really rooted in those emotions of being like whoa I weigh over invested my identity in this place I can't allow something to fail because that will ruin me and that's not a particularly good way to live your life I'm gonna throw that out there is not a the same thing that with this movie though are you putting all your bad year eggs in this basket your self worth is tied up in this I'm trying every single day to not do it but you're gonna be exposed in a way it's either good or bad you're gonna be exposed as a good writer a good director war or a not bad director yeah I'm absolutely can be exposed and that's what's scary but I think I think I've grown a lot I think I have made a lot of progress in in the sense of growing up in and and realizing that you know it's funny actually I had a great conversation and and this conversation actually was very thematically relevant for the movie I had a great conversation with someone who I don't actually know that well it was a a woman who was married to a guy that we were interviewing for a job this is pride two years ago now it was it was a lesson that I I don't actually remember exactly what it was and I usually not even involved in the interview process but this guy was like and he still working with us and I want to say who it is but like great guy he was up and we were having dinner we rang out and I was explaining how I thought about roller and I was like I really got to make this movie I have to make it it's inside of me I've been wanting to make a movie since I was like twelve I mean literally I've been wanting to make a movie since I was twelve is this written at this point of the script is done script is tight it is is it done tight is it done two years ago when you have the conversation with this guy now no it was not it's just an idea rattling around and it was a hot it was that it was a pilot but I I knew I wanted to make a different movie actually at this point that was what so the process of roller I I wrote a different movie maybe three and a half four years ago and that was a big kind of action movie and then I came up with a great idea for how to scale back make its models like that's gonna be the first movie I direct right I rewrote it I really like it I'm actually still working on it to this day %HESITATION as we'll see as we kind of we eat we should do a whole episode on just sort of script development but %HESITATION in and all the pitfalls and and challenges and maybe we can have somebody on to talk about it but basically I re wrote it and I was still like you know this isn't small enough for me to make as a first time director or if if I if I did pull it off it would take a very long time right and I decided to shift gears and others pilot that road rollers and I was like you know I think of an internist this pilot in a movie because I was I was talking about different people in the industry about producing a different networks and and I just realized that frankly and it's not the point as a producer or director or as a writer where I can just snap my fingers get a TV show me I mean I can't snap my fingers get a movie made either not yet but I definitely cannot get a TV show it right now and so I was like you know I wonder if there's another idea in there and as soon as I as soon as I open myself up to that I realized that it wanted end in part of the reason I think it wasn't a good TV shows because it had an ending right and I just cranked on it and %HESITATION but %HESITATION the conversation it was incredibly mean and forgot about the conversation did you pitch this pilot two companies like Netflix Amazon not %HESITATION not Netflix or Amazon because I just didn't have any particular like contacts at that point who like rich too but yeah like networks like IFC and write a lot mostly but mostly a lot of production companies to do TV or her and a lot of them were like look like this is really good but we just feel like you need you know we we need to bring on a you know an executive producer or director and frankly we've got other projects that are higher priority is just not gonna happen right now calls in six months and I was like alright to get it but I'm not gonna wait around you know I gotta I gotta make some stuff in the future we need to drill down on this in another episode we have to talk about this because just the idea of you sitting in a room with guys from IFC like I need to know what that looks like what it feels like I could I think experience that so few people have and it may have people are curious about but we got to skip over that the conversation you had this conversation two years ago with this guy tell us about it yet does it was with his wife actually we were all sitting at dinner and I had a couple drinks you know it's kind of vented not venting I was I was sharing baring my soul little bit and saying I I'm I I I had this moment of realization where realized movies and this is kind of what this podcast is about movies take a very very long time to make and if I want audiences real people watching this movie in the next five years I got to start now I got to figure out what that movie is now which seems crazy but I was expressing how much anxiety that was causing me I think I wasn't I I frankly I think I was in a much less healthy emotional place at that point and she looked at me and she said that's great man you seem super talented and I really hope that works out but you need to know that if you never make a movie in your whole life it's okay you're enough like your family will not hate you and you are still valuable as a human being even if you never make that movie and you stood up and you walked out she she just dropped the Mike and I was like no they did it struck the EAP it's very true it hit me yeah of course it's true but dude I needed that so bad I needed to hear that so bad and and and that's actually what rollers is about I mean I didn't even know that at the time and so there's a it's okay if I let something go it's okay if I fail it's okay if I try things life is bigger than that life is bigger than success lies life is is about more than than the things to accomplish and I'm getting all cheesy but it's real and that's honestly what the movie's about the movie is about that movies about you make choices sometimes they work out sometimes they don't work out any move on with your life and the only thing you really need to worry about is whether or not you are like loving people in your life taking care of your **** if you do that the rest of it configures itself out you can be ambitious you can you can accomplish things you know these are wise words thanks I don't know I guess the reason I'm rambling about this is because I really think that that section with the shows about the show I want to be totally raw to be totally real with the three and a half people that are gonna listen to this thing the half as a baby that's inside its mother's womb while she listens to it on speaker phone and I wanna be super real and I wanna be like there can be times where I'm like this movie's not gonna get made frankly this movie night might not get made I do not know how this podcast or this aspect of the podcast I don't know if the podcast will will end with the movie I I think we're gonna find lots of stuff to talk about but like I don't know if I'm gonna make them if you're not but that to me is interesting I mean I I lots of movies don't get made and I could go through lots of other examples in and maybe we can devote some episodes of these types of things of movies that we've developed that have not got made and probably won't ever get made and frankly rollers could be in the same situation I mean where it's at now it's in a promising position somewhere raise the money that I somewhere on a yacht you %HESITATION in Arab financier is pulling his hair out when he heard you say that this film might not get made he's he's Russian did don't tell anybody but he's a Russian guy I treated him the movie for some dirt and %HESITATION right now I can hear the dial toe right now if the movie doesn't get made all it means is a better podcast right now I kind of hope it doesn't cause it would be such a better podcast because I mean the chances of me like getting famous because this movie other so slim but there is a chance so others chan there's always there's always saying there's a chance John what's your favorite movie my favorite my favorite movie movie is it Fellini's eight and a half at such a pretentious answer but it's it was all it's so it's a great movie and it's you know it's metaphysical it's existential it's crazy it's a great film %HESITATION what's what's your favorite part of it half of the credits at the end you know I'm no I'm kidding can you describe them the I think they're black and white and they they're moving %HESITATION it's a lot of text the but I all I do is watch kids movies man that's only watch them like a little kid so much in like the Incredibles with stuff over and over again what's the what's it was a movie that you've watched recently with the kids we just less than twenty four hours hours ago we watched Steven Spielberg and George Lucas is raiders of the Lost Ark old baby it was intense I don't remember seeing it as a child I saw as a child but I barely remember it you know there are a few images I have in my head %HESITATION when they open the ark in people's faces melt I remember that vividly to the ending is a little much I remember it vividly and that the guy getting chopped up in the air in the propeller yeah oh might these shots are shocking images and now I'm John your kids are too young for this scarred for life did they sleep last night barely almost not at all of men just a mix of cranberry juice and you just woke up at four in the yeah just to shouting shrimp what term trembling in fear these movies are what were they doing when the guys face melted I mean cried they were crying there crying while I am not so good I'm kidding they loved it I mean that affects you we had a discussion after the how how do they do this because the kids actually what why because the kids actually thought a human was being murdered they thought yeah they act they ask me anything how many real people died to make that movie they did not did they actually asked me movie magic baby yeah it's it's a tough one because I'm I'm tori I don't want to spoil the illusion for them but I also want them to sleep sometime in the future I'm they were so they were just going to be an intense experience I mean that's intense thinking that you're watching a real human die an actual death yeah it's horrifying that is very intense and it makes purplish explanation I just let's see how much you know about movies what was her explanation for how they did it well I just explain to them that in the world there are people that are worth living in people that aren't worth living so they take the people that aren't worth living and I put it in movies and kill them for real and fill it that they were fine with it they thought that was fine you told them about the expendable people that something that's for the tell people until later they they got a quick early lesson is like telling about the birds and the bees to San I'm I have a whole stand up that that idea about the birds and the bees I'm not gonna do it now but you'll have to do it at some point one day you'll have to sneak it in and you perform this on stage %HESITATION at yuk yuks in Chattanooga what it was called he yuck X. %HESITATION %HESITATION JJ's barking likes on despite I performed at all of them what kind of audiences did you have %HESITATION so small the service now many standing ovations did you get %HESITATION sold so many zero that has to be that one of the scariest types of performance right if you you you know that's why did and nothing else it's hideous that's why I did it because I I I think I needed it well first of all this is actually kind of wonder the podcast not to be funny but because I like the idea of putting work out more often break you know as a filmmaker if you are Rankin I mean really crank and you put out a movie every eighteen months very few people achieve that pace and again we'll talk throughout this movie about this podcast about why that's the case but I mean that is Woody Allen writes and directs movie a year lover hate him it's crazy but also half as movie sucked and that nobody's beating that pace right and as an independent filmmaker it's not even close to eighteen months it's probably more unless you just making teeny tiny movies with some people have figured out a way to do but I was like I got I got up I'm a creative person I can't make stuff more often you know I can't just do ninety minutes of content every eighteen months that's lame yeah you know and so I was doing stand up and it was hard I I did not get I I started getting more laughs but man it was brutal I got a lot of blank stares I mean does is just part of the process where you do when you bomb what what's the proper have you must keep movin all have a bomb I've mostly bombed what do you do what mostly bomb John I'm not I'm not saying I'm surprised I just want to know what the process is like did you see stand up there and you keep telling jokes until your time's up and is have you been jeered at have you been screamed at Yale that heckled no not heckled as much I mean here's the thing though JJ's the audiences for an open Mike did this place was Poppin I mean there there were typically audiences of twenty five to fifty people and same with comedy catch quite a few people showed up and I actually got bigger laughs sometimes at the bigger crowds you know because I was telling okay jokes I just wasn't a good performer you know I I've been writing for so long that I think I was writing decent jokes but I just my pace wasn't right I just hadn't found my voice yet and I think I started to find my voice towards the end I realized you know I'm spending twenty five hours a week in a bar I don't need to do this you know like I I I just I I I guess I should get better writing scripts you know I'm not going to be a professional stand up I'm a screenwriter didn't help writer you think I'll be spending twenty five hours a week writing I think I'm really glad I did it I'd like to do it again do you think a chain but I can't change your personality at all to it to just I think it's a lot more resilient yeah yeah I realized I I I realized I can fail in front of people and it's fine I go home and no big deal well we're doing it again for a reason right now I know people are gonna hate this so much did there I can't wait to get trolled so hard my friend lost his license in Mexico and somebody found it and put it up on a Facebook page that mocks Americans who lose their licenses in Mexico I don't even find out about his phaser seems like the kind of thing that would be totally seeker yes I don't know someone sent it to him and he showed it to me and it was just you know hundreds of insults hurled at him in Spanish that sounds incredible contents I want to find this website I'll send you a link in the show knows my friend's home baby he men are shown a target beefy says a we're gonna check in together in a week and we're going to continue this conversation and you're going to tell us what what are you gonna be telling us next week where we can be talking about my dad I don't know I mean I think we should we should set a topic potentially what's something that you might be interested and I think we should have like a general topic and we should have a sense of what we're gonna cover and I also I mean right now I can tell you what I'm working on right now I'm waiting on some casting directors %HESITATION actually have it this maybe next week we talk about why I'm waiting on casting directors and why I am going to cast rectors and and not just going directly cast and the decision that I made to go that route that's on its next week I don't know let's talk about casting directors casting sounds sinister that has sinister overtones doesn't because of casting cal I think so yeah that's immediately what I think of Harvey it's Harvey damn you are black eyes freakin tentacles are just wrapped all over everything is he in jail did you get busted I don't think he's in jail because our justice system is absolutely insanity I feel like Trusteer children John I feel like John might there in this guy John oh oh he he just I would not be around to throw a wrench John I want to throw off I want to throw a little thought experiment at you at me if there is a country where there were children in jail because their parents brought them to the United States because they were fleeing warfare and there was a man who has raped people who is still probably sailing around on his yacht in the Cayman Islands and has no real plan of probably ending up in jail at any point would you consider that a modern country with an actual functioning government it sounds like you're trying to entrap me to say something negative about America and I'll never do it I love this country I support the troops John it just occurred to me that we might have one listener tell me it's the NSA %HESITATION definitely at the very least we have one listener I feel good I think we're deal and we have teddy Bronson were doing our part in the resistance by boring the **** out of these NSA guys right now reduce so the lord do you think teddy Bronson still listening right now I think when you said earlier that half of woody Allen's movies suck we lost teddy he bails in back he's got the cat sorry we need oh no that's why they carry it off teddy in the cat alright well we should probably go so we can review some applications for dog producers will be back in a week talks in body levy right well I say today I woke up and I thought my backers yeah it woman back does for my back I woke up and I was like my back hurts yet is my backer yes I tweaked it I guess is lebron I guess I bent over and wrong way to solicit tape I'm just constipated did down no I tried right before we started recording it ended uneventfully that's the worst yeah so it's it was a terrible feeling it always takes me like a day and a half to realize that my back isn't hurting my back is full of **** our defense ministry happening you need to fix that's not good I barely ever get constipated that's why I never notice it because I barely ever do it anytime he proved a day with more than one once or twice and a solid two to three times a day we're in and and so it will yes which means if I if I go a day and a half I'm in big trouble yeah yeah I'm on like let alone two days schedule almost a consensus terrific and I eat really healthy so I I wonder why this %HESITATION you know what it is Thomas most of a large most of a large domino's pizza with pepperoni eleven you said I healthy and then the next thing you tells you domino's pizza at what I do to help the okay a today today you arrive in today three smoothies two fried eggs an avocado and six beers and a bottle of tequila point yeah I said eat healthy and insane yeah thanks for tuning in for episode one of I guess to do it that way join us next week for discussion about casting directors and some other stuff today show is produced and edited by this moment intro music was composed by Carl Cadwell and recorded by the distribution outro music by Tom policy in Mexico our cover art was designed by need this is been a production of mama bear studios it's your whole See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Wisdom from above causes a transformation that causes us Iive in unity and peace with our neighbours - James 3:13-18

Katrina Ruth: Oh, nobody's there anyway, it doesn't matter. We can just pretend, nobody's there. Marlene Leslie: You say that to all the girls Katrina Ruth: Huh? Marlene Leslie: You say that to all the girls Katrina Ruth: Hang on, we have a problem, we have a lighting issue. Oh! Look how much more fabulous we look. So, we'll give people a moment to jump on. We'll share this stream over and tag you in properly. Katrina Ruth: Hello people who are not there yet but who are going to be watching this as a replay. Look at this fabulous, mysterious guest who I have here with me. She has some important things to share with you. I'm not sure you're going to like them though, 'cause she's been referred to as, what was it? Kind of aggressive? Marlene Leslie: Aggressive and intimidating. Katrina Ruth: I mean, who would want an aggressive woman on a livestream, I don't know what that would be about. Is that better lighting? Katrina Ruth: It's not really making a difference Katrina Ruth: Um, okay. Hi Tamara, hi Katherine. What's been happening? I'm glad you asked, Marlene and I, this is Marlene Leslie, I'll tag her in. Marlene and I have been at dinner and we were kind of rudely having a conversation all to ourselves and now we, 'cause we are kind, nice people, decided to share it with you. That's roughly what happened, isn't it? I suppose you could also say that I somewhat bullied her into leaving the dinner table and coming home to have a livestream conversation. Marlene Leslie: This is true. Katrina Ruth: Like literally ten minutes ago we were sitting at a beautiful restaurant with wine and food and I was like, let's do a livestream. Marlene Leslie: And you refused to answer my questions. Katrina Ruth: That's true. I refused to answer any more questions until I was on camera. It's roughly how I operate, in a general sense. Okay, who's that? That's not you. Okay, I'm just going to share this over to my page and then we are going to start to tell you some very important things, which you are going to need to pay attention to. So get your wine or whatever you need. If you go to my personal page you can see that I've tagged Marlene in, so you should do that. But not now, because you should be listening to us now. I don't know, do you want to say what we were talking about at dinner? Marlene Leslie: Yeah. We were talking about what it takes to make it in the online space as a coach. Katrina Ruth: As a high level authentic as fuck mentor. Marlene Leslie: Yeah, and being yourself and unapologetically being yourself and coaching people outside of the industry but leveraging the online space. Katrina Ruth: Right, so let's give people some backstory, because everybody loves a great story. Where did we meet? Bali, right? Marlene Leslie: Yes, oh gosh. Katrina Ruth: Oh my god, have you guys seen my happy pants? So, check out these pants. Like, what happened is we went to dinner and I was wearing the tightest skinny jeans in the world and then by halfway through dinner I was like, sitting like this, because they were digging in and I couldn't eat. So I was half wanting to get out of the restaurant so that we could livestream and half so I could get the fucking jeans off. And I'm not sure what's up with these pants but I'm going to wear them anyway. Okay, we got that out of the way. Katrina Ruth: So, we met in Bali. Marlene Leslie: Yeah, 4 years ago? Katrina Ruth: 3 or 4 years ago. And we did many things that we probably shouldn't publicly talk about, so we can't tell you about that but it was fabulous. Marlene Leslie: So the livestream is over. Katrina Ruth: Well, we actually were kind of living or staying together at a mutual friend's villa and lots of different cool people were always coming through and staying at this villa people who want to create their own lives and do lives on their terms. Lives on their terms? At least their own life on their terms. And, I don't know, like we just...there were so many people that came through that villa. Marlene Leslie: Cause we were there for like 3 weeks, or maybe it was 2. Katrina Ruth: I was there for like 8 months but you were there for a few weeks. But there was a lot of people that came and stayed there and I didn't continue to stay friends with, I think just you and one other person. And we just clicked because this solidarity about being somebody who insists on creating life on their terms basically. And then I think we just have reconnected, basically, I mean once or twice a year since then, here in the US. Like, we've been up in Utah together and every time I come here we end up catching up. But we haven't seen each other now since... Marlene Leslie: This time last year. Katrina Ruth: You know, I think the last time we saw each other was in Utah, when we went up the mountain. Marlene Leslie: Oh, that's right. Katrina Ruth: Cause I got the Facebook memories a month ago, it was like February of last year. Marlene Leslie: Oh my gosh, it seems like it was just yesterday. Katrina Ruth: It was so long ago. So we are literally catching up tonight for the first time in over a year. But, like this was such an interesting conversation because obviously, as you guys know, I've built a very successful online business and brand and that's my area and Marlene has so much incredible fucking success in the offline world, specifically around, I mean, why don't you tell like a little bit of your background. Because I was super intimidated by you when I met you. Like, I was like, this women is seriously high level. She frickin' builds hotels, not with her own physical hands but.. Marlene Leslie: I have people for that. Katrina Ruth: She has people to do the building. Marlene Leslie: Yeah, so my background is in hospitality and I started working in hospitality when I was in high school and college and then in New York, my first job was as the general manager of a $20 million restaurant. I actually started out as a manager but finagled my way up really quickly because I was very aggressive and intimidating. Katrina Ruth: The path was just delayed. It's considered an unbecoming personality trait. Marlene Leslie: So they say. Katrina Ruth: But that's exactly what we're here to talk about. Marlene Leslie: So, from there I studied hospitality, worked a lot of notable restaurants in New York and transitioned into the hotel industry and opened a very popular hotel that basically had one of the most notable food and beverage programmes in the city. Then I went on to launch another hotel brand and concepted and came up with restaurants and bars within that brand until about 3 years ago, right before Cat and I met, parted ways with that company, my position was eliminated and I was at a point in my career where I kind of, and you'll appreciate this, I totally manifested that because I wanted out so badly but it was such a great job and it was like having an open chequebook to do whatever I wanted to do and to design and to create what I wanted to within hotels, that I felt that the best possible thing that would happen to me was to be able to have my job eliminated or to be let go in some way so that I could travel and take a year off. Katrina Ruth: Yeah, which is how we met because you were on that travel year. But honestly, like when we did meet I was like, I felt intimidated until I got to know you, which I know a lot people feel about me because I think, and we were just talking about this right before we got the [inaudible 00:07:30], like I think that anytime it's an area that you've got no understanding of and it just feels super vast and mysterious and daunting. Marlene Leslie: Yes, yes, totally. Katrina Ruth: And then you meet somebody who has conquered that, like, I'm like hello, she's opened like multi cagillion dollar hotels and done it all. I'm like, that's, like I have no clue to this day about that world. Why would I? I've never been part of it. To me that sounds insanely high level and like just impressive and daunting and vast. And if you try to turn me into getting a hotel opened I would have everybody livestreaming in no time but I'm not quite sure what else I would do. But there would definitely be wine and I'd get some martinis made and then I'm not quite sure what I would do, I'd probably get sick of everybody and leave 'cause I hate people sometimes. So, you know, like we were talking about this because Marlene mentors and coaches insanely high level executives and leaders in the physical world, not so much the online world. Like the real world, like people on the streets of New York you guys. And I'm like whoa, that's crazy. How do you connect with like an executive of a multi multi multi hundred million dollar firm or whatever it is. Katrina Ruth: But we were talking about like what I do and then Marlene's wanting to come online and basically conquer the online world. Marlene Leslie: I didn't want to come onto this, let's be clear. Katrina Ruth: I have my ways of getting people onto livestreams, it's just what I do, it's a gift, I can't teach it to you. Well, I can, you should join my high ticket sales workshop, it's going live tomorrow. Yeah but, like this is what I was trying to explain, right? Cause you were kind of like, it feels like I don't know how to start and like kind of the conversation we're having is the one that I have with all of my clients and friends also, from time to time, around how do I know if I'm good enough and how do I know if I can do that and how do I do it and what's the strategy. Katrina Ruth: And I was trying to explain, it's just about your perception, right? Because if you go to the top of that mountain and plant the flag and say I'm here and I'm the leader and everybody should listen to me, well you've got to be able to back it up. But it's about realising that you've that inside of you to back it up. Marlene Leslie: Yeah, yeah. That's a good point because there are two very different worlds and that analogy is so perfect in describing like my world versus your world and finally realising what I wanted to do and having those aha moments and having people say wow, you changed my life. That takes your breath away, where you are like, I did that? Actually, like you did it but I was there to support you on that. And I've personally been struggling with how to scale that and how to do that in a really meaningful way with executives and with the people that I really want to work with. It's a super scary world to venture into. Katrina Ruth: Right, and it's about, and this relates to everyone. Like I do not think that there is anybody else who is on this livestream or replay who is going to say that they've opened multi-million dollar hotels. But every single person here has their own experiences, stories, skills, things you've learned, things you've overcome. What makes you credible enough to be a leader alone is that you fucking decide that you are and that you believe that you are. So I said to you, in the Uber I think, what you've got to understand is that just being around you is a value. And then you said, how is that a value? Marlene Leslie: Yeah, I did. I was like, what? Katrina Ruth: Like, how? And I'm like, okay, you can choose to play smaller and think that it's egotistical to imagine that just being around you is a value. Typically, that is what people would say to me, right? They'd be like, it sounds egotistical if I think that I'm good enough that people should listen to me and people should, you know, that I should be able to teach people something or position myself as somebody to pay attention to. Katrina Ruth: It's actually egotistical not to and the reason is that it's not about you, the person who has their own insecurities and doubts, as we all do. It's about the talent and the gift that you have inside of you and if you separate your own self, your own self away from that, will that talent and gift inside of you help people, yes or no? Marlene Leslie: Yeah. Katrina Ruth: Right, so get out of your own way, get the fuck over yourself. It's not about you, it's about what's inside of you. So if you would prevent yourself from putting your work out into the world because you think it's egotistical to imagine that people should listen to you, then what you are actually doing is stopping people from being helped and served and you are making your own human self more important than the message and the gift that's inside of you. So look at it as, what if it was a responsibility to get that message out and to impact people with what you have. And that's what I do and I feel like people will never fully understand how real this is for me, and even people who do know me super well. We were just saying that you know me really well, you know that I'm a natural introvert. We've stayed together, travelled together, known each other for some years now, you know that I'm not the person that people online think I am. Marlene Leslie: Totally. Katrina Ruth: Right? But, it's still a real part of me, it's not fake, it's not made up. It's that I allow it to come out, I access that part of me and I let it out. But when I come online, not always, but a significant part of the time I'm still that same scared little girl whose like, am I good enough, do people really want to listen to this, am I just repeating myself all the time? Am I too rambling, I'm wishy-washy, I'm vague, I'm all over the place or some people who don't like me or what do people think about how I look. Like, all the normal things, right? Marlene Leslie: Absolutely. We talked about this earlier too, about how some of the people that we coach are mirrors to us and this comes up for everyone. It's funny to hear. Katrina Ruth: Like you coach your clients and you're like oh, I should probably do that too. Marlene Leslie: Yeah, that's really good advice, I should listen to that. Katrina Ruth: I watch my own livestream replays, I'm not even kidding. I watch my own livestream replays because I don't know what I'm talking about right now, it's all just whatever comes out. Then later on I'll watch it and think that's good, I'll write that down. Marlene Leslie: But it's true, it's true. You hear the stuff that comes up and then you look in the mirror and you are like oh, how can I possibly coach people on this and help them get out of their own way but yet... Katrina Ruth: Because you understand it. Marlene Leslie: Yeah, I understand it but I think that we are also really sneaky when it comes to ourselves. Katrina Ruth: Yeah, the internal critic, the internal dialogue. Marlene Leslie: Yeah, absolutely. It takes somebody like you or another coach to say hey, by the way... Katrina Ruth: Get out of your own way. Marlene Leslie: Exactly. Katrina Ruth: It's not about you it's about what you can help people with, get over yourself, stop making it all about I feel this and I feel that and what do people think about this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Instead, make it what if I was committed to my work, my art, my message, my business, my clients, whatever it is. And also, I guess in the end it's just like when you put all your own drama aside, like what we just said, do you know that what you have inside of you can help people. Katrina Ruth: And you had asked me the question, because I said just being around you is a value and you were like, how? And I'm like, because of the way you've lived your life. Like, I never prepared for anything, right? I ran my event here yesterday and it was so fucking amazing, I'm doing San Diego next Tuesday, message me if you want to come. I was saying to Marlene, and the ladies yesterday knew this as well obviously, I don't prepare anything for that. The event started at 11:00 am, from about 10:15 to 10:40 I was taking selfies in the mirror in the bedroom because I had those rose-gold thigh high boots on. I mean, I'm just going to say, it's essential to get a really good selfie in the boots, that was my preparation for the event. Katrina Ruth: But prior to that my preparation earlier that morning was journaling, did some inspiring reading of my books in there that you saw. Marlene Leslie: Shared on livestream. Katrina Ruth: Not in the morning, that's an afternoon activity, thank you. Wrote something online, went to the gym, went to Equinox, went to the dry bar, did a little bit writing or whatever there. So I did nothing to prepare for the event, in fact I literally didn't even prepare for the event until the afternoon before when I got here and I was like, hey I want to run an event tomorrow and they are like that is plenty short notice and I'm like I'm sure you can figure it out. I didn't plan a single note or concept or anything that I would speak about because I knew and trusted that the message for these women would come through me and would be powerful. However, and this was my point around the value of being around you. My fucking preparation was the fact that since I was 11 years old, so for 27 years now, I've been doing personal development and growth work. Katrina Ruth: That was my preparation and my preparation is the way I live my life every single day and your preparation and what makes you credible and what makes you credible, if you know that this is for you as well, is the way you live your life and how when other people are doing whatever the fuck it is that they are all doing out there, which we really don't want to know most of the time, you're growing and you're putting yourself into uncomfortable situations and you're walking away from situations that are not aligned and you are actively, day by day, moment by moment, designing your life purposefully. I think we take that, we forget sometimes that that's not normal. And not that we want to necessarily be like oh, that's not normal, but mostly to make the point that that is of immense value. The way you live your life is of immense value. So therefore, when you open your mouth, literally value comes out. So somebody should pay just to be around you or they can pay, but it depends on what you want to do. Marlene Leslie: Right, yeah. And I think the question that I asked you to that was, how do you monetize that? Like that's the question, there are so many coaches out there that are selling stuff that doesn't seem to be inline with, sometimes I sense a misalignment in what they are saying and what they are actually doing. So you pick up on that. Katrina Ruth: You can feel it. Like give love heart shower if you see on your Facebook feed people who are selling shit where, like actually I wanted to put a post up, I think I've forgotten and you've just reminded me, which was something like hey, stop fucking selling shit that you yourself have no clue about. Like you're scarcely verbal, your desperate vibe shows. Marlene Leslie: Yeah, exactly, exactly. So the question is how do you, like how do you monetize that in a way that is true to you? Katrina Ruth: Is not that. Marlene Leslie: Yeah, is not that, exactly. Katrina Ruth: Well, firstly you know that you wouldn't because you decide to, like you say that and you are like, ick. It doesn't feel good, it feels yuck inside of you. So you consciously chose out of that already. But secondly, it is about you've got to be, I think it's a courage thing, you've got to be courageous enough. KELLY!!!! That's Kelly. Marlene Leslie: Oh hey! Katrina Ruth: What's up! All right, shout out for Kelly. Everybody send Kelly the love heart shower, I think she's at LAX about to get on a plane. Send her good vibes for her flight home. We're sending you wine and happy flight vibes. Miss you. Katrina Ruth: Jenna, hey! I'm reading the comments. Energy doesn't like, exactly Kristine, energy doesn't like, people can feel. Kelly, look at all those love hearts coming in for you. People can feel when you are being real and when you are not being real in the land. Katrina Ruth: So, how you are going to monetize it? I'm like very committed to this cushion. You don't understand how bloated my stomach is right now you guys, it's death. Well, not really, I'm abundantly alive but anyway, I'm very distracted by it. So you've got to get into giving yourself permission to own your greatness. That's the long and the short of it, right? Like, we all do this, I did this for years, one of my key jobs or roles that I choose into and that I love as a mentor is to kind of kick your ass, to not spend years doing it, like I did. Like the whole point of mentoring with somebody like me, for people that mentor with me. Katrina Ruth: Like I'm constantly preaching at my friends because it just kind of happens as well, like the whole point is not just to learn maybe how somebody does something that if you align to their way of doing things but you should be able to save time and effort and money or whatever by saying, okay, this person is like me and they are saying they wasted all this time doing this that means I don't have to waste all that time, I can learn my lesson. I didn't have a mentor like myself telling me to be true to myself and stay the course and follow my soul and I literally took years before I finally gave in to being me and I think everybody takes years in some way or another before they finally give into being them. Katrina Ruth: And what people do and what you don't want to do is people kind of dip their toe in the water, where they try to do the real passion purpose work that's inside of them and they do like some kind of half fake, not fake, but half assed attempt basically, a cautious attempt is a better way to say it. Katrina Ruth: They are like, well you know I don't want to be inappropriate. Marlene Leslie: Or I don't want to offend anybody. Katrina Ruth: Right, I don't want to offend anybody. Marlene Leslie: Or intimidate anyone. Katrina Ruth: That, be too aggressive, be too much, like women like us, this is what they say about women like you, women like me. She's too much, she's too aggressive, she's too loud, she's over the top, don't you think she's a bit whatever. So we learn to tone it down but also it's the not good enough thing comes up again and like I always wanted to talk about the stuff I talk about now and then for years I was like, why would I get to talk about that, what makes me good enough to talk about that and who would want to listen to me. Marlene Leslie: It doesn't matter. Katrina Ruth: Yeah, it doesn't matter. Is it even a thing? Like everybody here has felt this, is my message good enough, does that really matter? And everyday people say to me, I'm not clear on what my message is and I say bullshit. You are clear, it's just that one, you've got given yourself permission and two, you think it needs to be more fancy in order to be good enough. You're like bad cop, that's too vague, that's like not even a thing. Marlene Leslie: I totally believe that. Yeah, it needs to be packaged really nicely and it needs to be perfect and it needs to use all the right words. Katrina Ruth: And have like modules. Marlene Leslie: Yeah, like the right cadence and the right tone inflexion, like all of that stuff. Yeah, absolutely. Katrina Ruth: Yeah, exactly, when actually your true message is the simple truth of, like I have this megaphone exercise that I give all my clients, which is if you are on the balcony, like on whatever floor, but if you are on a balcony super high up and there was like tens of thousands of people below you and you had a megaphone and get one minute and you get to say, hey, don't you understand, this is what you've got to understand about life, this is what it's about, what would you say? Marlene Leslie: I'd say, be you and I've said that for the longest time. Katrina Ruth: Right, and it is very fucking simple and we would all say some version of that, but that's actually the whole message, that's it. And then you kind of like, but how do you monetize that? And everybody says, but that's like come on, everybody says that. How am I going to stand out from the other coaches and how do you turn that into something you would sell. Well, you start to build on it but you don't imagine to yourself that it's got to be something different from that simple core message. My core message is be you, be unapologetically you. But then when I express it I say a few more words than that and it comes out through the filter of my life experience and what I've chosen and what I've done. So there are lessons, there are stories, there are details or elements but the message is just, be unapologetically you, life does not press play, you've can't have it all, do what it takes. Katrina Ruth: Whatever it is it just comes out differently each day. But it's always the simple stuff and in any era of life it's the simple stuff, right? Whether it's health and fitness, whether it's business, whether it's love, anything just comes down to simple core truths. And there is nothing you need to add to that. Marlene Leslie: So do you find that using, how do you relate that message to executives that are very lonely when they get to that point and they want a little bit more substance. They are used to pain, they are used dealing with it being really hard and I'm wondering how you attract those people in on a regular basis? Katrina Ruth: It's about realising that no matter how high level somebody is, they are a person who has their own insecurities, doubts, uncertainties. And actually, what I've found, is that the higher level somebody is the more they really appreciate, and we were talking about this, like real and raw, and typically the higher level somebody is the more that people, in general, are scared to speak to them at all. Marlene Leslie: I see that all the time. Katrina Ruth: Or they are scared to speak in a real way or speak the truth and it's kind of like cow towing or whatever the expression is. And just faking it, essentially. So when you come in and you be that, you just honestly just be your real self, like you said, and say what you know to say. It doesn't matter how impressive or high up the person in front of you is, if you just pause for a moment and check in with your own self and be like, what do I need to say to this person, you'll know what to say. And people, like I've mentored and consulted with people who have even up to multi hundred million dollar businesses and if they don't have significance and meaning connected to their core desires, and often it is something to do with auto-creativity or whatever it is, then they are not happy. Katrina Ruth: And it doesn't mean that they are going to walk away from their whole business and life, necessarily, but when you can start to connect somebody back to what matters to you, what makes you come alive, and just speak to them as yourself, like take away what their title is or their position. Like, for me, in the online world, I have many clients now who are very well known leaders online and some of those clients, when they first started working with me, I was kind of like, are you sure? Do you know who you are? Like, I know I'm doing okay but I was like, really? Such and such person wants to me to be their mentor? And now that's just kind of my client base. Katrina Ruth: But I still feel that way, I'm still like this is kind of crazy. Like, how did I pull this off? How am I getting away with this? Because all I'm doing is speaking my truth. All I'm doing is, I became the person who stopped worrying about whether it was allowed or whether it was okay. And relevant to your question of how do you know how to coach those people? Well you know because you know and if you put aside the idea that you don't know, well then it's going to be a complicated thing. Then you do know exactly what to say. Marlene Leslie: Yeah, so I don't have a problem coaching those people, I want to know how to cull them in. Katrina Ruth: Okay, cool, perfect. So this is exactly what we were talking about at the end of dinner around fuck niching, or however the word is said here in America. I get confused about it. Like screw niching and nitching, both of them. And like demographics and all that bullshit. It's not about that, that's not how you find your ideal clients, right? It's about personality type and characteristics. So you write down, who is the person who I am speaking to. Like, my ideal client is, well most of my clients are women, but that's because I've typically marketed to women, so a woman or a man now, it's a person who is a born entrepreneur, firstly. So I don't believe in entrepreneurs being made. Yes, I'll agree that somebody can become an entrepreneur and build a business, that's not the same as being a born entrepreneur, that's a different kettle of fish. Katrina Ruth: So my clients are born for it, they've always known it, they've always known that they were born for more. They've grown up feeling like they are kind of smarter than everybody and know more than everybody but they probably felt bad about that, because it sounds egotistical. But they just knew inside of them that they were born for more, that they are going to do something extraordinary, they are not going to live the normal life, they are going to create something amazing. They've always had that yearning and that pull and that are typically like the fuck the status quo, black sheep type person who breaks all the rules. Either who was a bad girl or a bad girl growing up or alternatively more like me, who was like a teacher's pet good girl who somehow hacked the entire fucking system and nobody knew that I was always just doing whatever the fuck I want. Katrina Ruth: But I was still like the A grade, good girl student but I never did anything. I just like hacked it and I always just got the result and I was like, it's so easy. Like I'd always get the top mark and I didn't do anything, right? Which is still now, I'm like I don't really do anything, somebody should report me, I don't know what I'm doing here, like I'm just making shit up every day and now people are agreeing to pay me so that I can talk at them when I just wanted them to listen to me the whole time anyway. Katrina Ruth: So that's who my client set has been, they've either been like kind of a rabble rouser and got into trouble growing up or they were like the good girl or good boy who hacked the system and kind of got away with shit and nobody really knew. And then as time went on, they pretty much walked out on every job, they continually started new business ventures or new endeavours or always never finished them and then feel bad about it, like I never finish things, there is something wrong with me, I'm not being organised, I'm not responsible, I'm not reliable. Because that whole time when you are walking away from everything and supposedly failing at everything and quitting on everything in your life, what you were really doing was going more and more connected to your soul and you were like the one person whose smart enough to not stick with something that's not soul aligned. Katrina Ruth: And now that person is like that woman or man whose said that she's too much, too aggressive, over the top, doesn't do it properly, I could go on and on but my point is that's how you cull your clients. You speak to who they are at their core and you don't worry about what their demographics are. My clients spend, as we were saying, I just from early 20s into 60s and even beyond actually, and all walks of life and all types of businesses, as well. Roughly 40%, maybe a little bit more of my clients are coaches, there are many different kinds of people. It's not about what they do, it's not about how they look, what their age is, what their background is, it's about who they are at their core. Katrina Ruth: And then the way to get those clients wanting to work with you is you do have to be doing this, right? Which you are. But messaging and communication of some kind. Marlene Leslie: So like blogging? Katrina Ruth: Blogging, telling stories, writing massive 3,000 word blog posts every single day 365 days a year. No, not really. You don't have to do anything that I do but you've certainly got to communicate, right? Because you want to be that voice where your core clients are like, if Marlene doesn't write another fucking blog post at 3 I'm going to go over to her house and personally sit her down and make her write it. Like, I used to have bloggers that I would follow, which I still do, but I get so shitty, like I'd be curious to know, like on the odd occasion where I take a day off, does anybody get kind of shitty at me? That I didn't post anything? And I know you do because I gets messages about it. People will message me and be like, did you die? Um excuse me Kat, why have you not posted a blog in two days? Katrina Ruth: And I used to be like that. Like you find that person that you are inspired by and you just want them to produce content for you all the time and the way to become that person for your people is to just become that person and do it and be it and then continue to show up for it. So then your ideal clients wake up in the morning and they are like I'm going to go check Marlene's page and see what she's posted or has she done another livestream, because that's food for their soul. Katrina Ruth: So the question would be, not how do I find my clients the question is, how do I just be food for the soul of my clients right now. And the way to do that is so easy, it's literally turn on the camera or start writing and say what's inside of you, zero filter. Like, whatever it is. Whether it's about obvious relevant things. Kristine says, haha, I feel like where's Kat, why hasn't she gone online. I got so much shit last month when I did hardly any livestreams because I was in the hospital and then I was travelling. I was going my branding in LA with Chris and it was quite full on. We were doing these fancy things. And I did like two livestreams in a month, which was so rare for me. Gosh, people were giving me such a hard time about it. Not in a mean way, obviously. But that's what happens when you build up your position as a leader. And you've just got to let it be easy. Marlene Leslie: It's true. I was going to ask you a question but I know what you'll probably say, to the idea of creating content. Like that's a lot of pressure to create content on a regular basis and to first, like find your voice and then secondly, to like own it and do it on a consistent daily basis because you don't want to be that person that's dipping their toe in the water. Katrina Ruth: Right, but you have a voice already. That's the thing to realise. Right? Like, we go to dinner or we go out with a group of people, you're an aggressive, over-the-top, and we did establish earlier this evening, a hilarious person. We agreed that we are both very funny, we established that earlier in the evening. Marlene Leslie: Cheers. Katrina Ruth: But that's who you are, you're like the life of the party person, same as me, that's why we're friends. We would have never stayed in touch after Bali if we weren't that same sort of person, right? So you already have that voice, you have that crazy irreverent personality and also ability to go super deep super fast and experience and knowledge and wisdom. And its literally just let that same part of you come out here, don't separate it. Katrina Ruth: This kind of doesn't make sense because we're all online and we don't go to boardrooms, but it's a good analogy that I came up with a few years ago, which is it should be the same conversation in the boardroom as what's in the bar. Right? Like separate nothing, at all. The irreverent stuff, the crazy stuff, the random shit that's got nothing to do with anything, like even me carrying on about my pants and my stomach at the start of the livestream. That's just me being me but its also me kind of, that was somewhat deliberate of me to do that because I'm conscious of who wants to just sit down and watch a, like what are we going to do, sit here like this, hello Marlene, this evening on the Katrina Ruth show we're going to have a conversation about what it takes to be a leader online but hang on a second, you shouldn't really do that with a top that has holes in it. Marlene Leslie: Let's start this again. Cut! Cut! Katrina Ruth: And you definitely shouldn't do it in like MC Hammer copper pants. Marlene Leslie: Cut! We're going to delete all this, right? Katrina Ruth: Yes. Marlene Leslie: These people on here are all friends. Katrina Ruth: And besides, switch spots with these weirdo [inaudible 00:36:48], like it should be a proper set. Like, do you know what I mean? Like so many entrepreneurs are like, I'm going to make it look like perfect and now I'm going to present my topic, like they are presenting like a grade school paper or something. Marlene Leslie: Did you hear what I said? Like Marie? Katrina Ruth: Ooh. Marlene Leslie: I'm just kidding, I don't want to be mean. Katrina Ruth: Marlene, you're the one who said it. You guys didn't hear that. But you know what I mean? Like, you don't have to find your voice to message online. There is a voice already there, just use the one that you've got. Marlene Leslie: That's a good point, yeah. Katrina Ruth: But all of it, like all of it. That's the missing link. Don't make it like I've got to make sure that I've got a relevant topic that's of value and it's useful and is this a good enough topic and then what are my fucking three key points or something like that. Don't do that. Make it the same as if you would go to dinner and you already go to dinner with high level people and we all actively call people who are thinkers and action takers and success minded and growth minded. And you'd be able to have an amazing, inspiring, entertaining and motivating conversation with them. So just put it here, same thing. Marlene Leslie: What if nobody watches it? Katrina Ruth: Then you keep on going because you've got to trust in the process. That's a good question because that is hard. Like, I can remember my first livestream, it was actually on Periscope. Do you remember Periscope? So, it wasn't that long ago. It was that same year in Bali, it wasn't that long ago. I was Periscoping from Rob's villa but I did the first one like not that long before we met. It went for about ten minutes and after the ten minutes I found out that I had done the whole thing sideways and I hadn't known because I didn't know how to read the comments at the time. And people were like, it's sideways and that was all that the comments were about. And if you would watch it, and I think it's gone now, or maybe it's somewhere on YouTube, who knows, but team probably like downloaded it on YouTube, but I was so nervous and I was so [inaudible 00:38:53]. Katrina Ruth: I was nothing like the savvy, livestreaming entertainer that I am now. Because I've been online for nearly 12 years now, but Facebook Live is fairly new and livestreams in general, but I think when I first started doing them, for ages it was like three or four people getting on, stuff like. Now it's so widely varied, there's 19 people on right now, but this will totally get like several thousand views over the next day or so, and sometimes there are a few hundred people on, it goes quite varied. But either way, make it not about the numbers, make it about the message. And play the long game, right? Like, for real, you feel self-conscious if you do something and nobody seems to be engaging. Or let's say that you try to sell something and only one person buys it. But you've got to look at it like, well imagine somebody said, well I went to the gym today and I don't have abs yet, so what should I do? Marlene Leslie: Totally. Katrina Ruth: I'd be like, um, hello, idiot. Marlene Leslie: Keep going. Katrina Ruth: It's going to take more than a day or maybe even more than 100 days in a row, who knows. Depending on what your goal is, but play the long game. And I think it is about that, it's about being that very rare person that's going to be brave enough to put themselves out there when they do feel self-conscious and when they do feel like, is this good enough. And you put that video out, like you did something terrifying and scary. Tell people about it. Marlene Leslie: Yeah, I mentioned to Kat earlier that I, my coach had me put a video on Facebook to coach a hundred people in a hundred days, which the coaching part didn't scare me but the moment that she said video on social media, my heart dropped and I started trembling, I was like ugh. Like, can I just talk to people? She's like nope, social media, tomorrow. And I was like, holy shit! What? I was like fine, I'll do it. This also came after I had struggled putting my website together and writing my copy and going through this entire process. Katrina Ruth: And letting people know you. Marlene Leslie: Yeah, letting people get to know me and putting my message out there. So I actually asked for this challenge, I was like you know, I really want to be challenged in a way that I can overcome something because I felt really good. Long story short, I did the Facebook video and it was horrifying, it was so scary. The moment that I pressed post I was like, ugh, nobody is going to watch this and I'm going to have to like go into witness protection programme. Like this is going to bomb. Katrina Ruth: I watched it. Marlene Leslie: But the crazy thing about that was that I had a lot of people reach out to my privately that were impressed by my bravery, my courage. Like all of these words that were used and all the support that I got, that I didn't even anticipate, it was amazing and I reconnected with a lot of great people and actually coached a lot of great people too. It was pretty powerful and I got like 1.8k views or something, which is crazy. Katrina Ruth: And that's the thing, like so few people are going to choose to be brave enough to do something like that and every time you are brave and vulnerable and authentic. Marlene Leslie: That word came up a lot. Katrina Ruth: Vulnerable, right. It pays off, for sure. And there is no way to get around the terrifying part though, that's the thing. You've got to go through it but at the end of the day we are all here to create a life that other people don't even dare to dream of. So it's kind of like, at some point you've got to remind yourself that it's not going to fall into your lap just because you were born for it. Nobody is going to knock on your door with a silver platter and be like, hi you were born for it, here's your leader status, here's your dream life, here's your soulmate. I used to think that. Like I honestly thought that. And then when I was like 27 I was like fuck, I don't think it's going to happen, I think I have to do it. Marlene Leslie: You have to work for it, yeah. Katrina Ruth: Yeah! Legitimately, I was like, holy shit. Because when you are 27 you think that 30 is clearly the beginning of the end, right? Like, when you are 27 you are like I'm going to be 30! Life is nearly over! Like, I had a lot of friends and clients who are not yet 30 and I'm like, shut the fuck up. They are like, I'm going to be 30, I'm not a billionaire yet. Marlene Leslie: You'll be just fine. Katrina Ruth: I'm like, just shut up or I'm going to punch you. But I got to 27, I did, and I was like, fuck, I haven't done any of the stuff, I had a whole life planned. Married at 24, kids at 26, millionaire by 30, just your typical normal life plan. I was like 25, I got married and I'm like, I'm on track, I'm sweet. Then 26, I'm divorced, not part of the plan. 27, no clue, bulimia, debt, looking great from the outside, fitness modelling, whatever, like showing the world success, mess. And I was literally like fuck, what am I going to do? Katrina Ruth: Because I was a personal trainer and I was good at it and I loved fitness but I was not in a good place, but I knew that fitness wasn't my life. And it was, it was that thing of going, holy shit, my whole life I've known I'm born for more and I just suddenly realised that it's not going to magically happen. And that's the year that I started my first blog. Marlene Leslie: Oh wow. Katrina Ruth: Yeah, that's why I started. Because I was like, I better start doing something then. And I built my own little homemade website, it was like, website in a box I think it was called, and you pay for it like $100 and you build it yourself. It was a black background with white writing and neon colours everywhere. Marlene Leslie: Shocker. Katrina Ruth: And it was called kickasslifetraining.com. Anyway. But we all went through that period. So you do have to go through that period of putting yourself out there and what if nobody is watching and nobody responds and I fall on my face. I've had way more offers failed than what have succeeded over the years, but nobody knows or remembers about that. And I barely even remember about it at this point. But it is true and it is real. I just think, when I look back at my business journey I know that very few people would put themselves through what I put myself through because they don't have the inner strength and the tenacity and I think that's really what this conversation is about. Marlene Leslie: Yeah. Katrina Ruth: It's not about do you know you've got what it takes, because you know that, you know that, we all know that. It's about do you have the tenacity, do you have the resilience, do you have the inner strength, will you choose it, because it's all a choice anyway, right? Marlene Leslie: Yeah, but I think that its normal to have those doubts in everything that you do. So, do you feel that that inner strength can be built up? Katrina Ruth: Definitely! It's a muscle, the same as we build our muscles in fitness and we build our mindset in fitness as well. I mean, for me personally and you are probably the same, like I take a lot of stuff to this day in my business from fitness. Marlene Leslie: Oh, totally. Katrina Ruth: Like, you know how to push through, you know how to overcome, you know how to go beyond your limits, you know when you feel like you are at your limit so you want to stop but you know that you are actually not at your limit. So I feel really grateful that I had fitness in my life for such a long time because it has taught me so much and I think that it's critical. But, regardless, anyhow, yes it can be built up, of course it's a practise and a discipline and it's basically that moment when you feel like you can't keep going. Katrina Ruth: Or actually, like back in the day, years ago I used to train with professional rugby players and I was always the only female in the gym, because it was part of our management training when I worked in Australia's largest health club chain. And it would literally be like, you think you are going to die, and I still train so extreme and I learned it from these guys, but back then it was beyond. And it was literally like you would be on the floor nearly crying and dying and it would be like hey Kat, are you dead? No. Then get up and keep going. They don't care. Throwing up? Are you dead? No? Then get up and keep going. Katrina Ruth: And I really just applied that philosophy to business. I don't mean, and we talked about this, I don't mean that you've got to work all the hours to make money or burn yourself out and do shit that you don't want to do, but maybe you do maybe you don't, we all have, but obviously what I teach and preach is fall on your knees and that's what I believe. But it's a kind of interesting thing to talk about because I felt, I was like, I didn't do anything, I felt pretty sure that I did nothing, I'd just sit around all day, all I did was yoga and gym, facial, massage, or whatever. Katrina Ruth: But I still actually wrote about 5,000 words of content, including a sales pitch for an entire new programme, and a long blog posts and a bunch of promotional stuff and communicated with 100% of my clients privately. I said to you, I did nothing today, I slept in, I went to yoga, had a smoothie, had a facial, then went to the gym, had another smoothie, then went to the dry bar and then went to dinner. I was legitimately like I had a total bliss day. Katrina Ruth: Now I'm like, hang on, I wrote a sales pitch for a whole new programme, I wrote a 2,500 word blog post, which was really good, I communicated with all of my private clients [inaudible 00:48:57], I responded to my all my team staff, I laid out a bunch of new project stuff and like probably ten other things I can't even remember right now. To me, I'm like I did nothing. So it's about becoming that person whose disciplined and where it's just kind of who you are, you don't think about it. I'm way off on a tangent there. Marlene Leslie: So how do you differentiate between the stuff that you have to do or that you need to do for your business, like a Facebook Live, like obviously that's something that I'm not comfortable with and everyone has their thing. So the Facebook Live versus like being in flow and ease. Katrina Ruth: Okay. This is where you've got to go, is it true that you don't want to do a Facebook Live or is it that you can't for your mindset, because I know who you are as a person, that actually you're the exact kind of perfect person to do Facebook Live and that if it wasn't a new uncomfortable area you'd be having the best time ever. So the way to differentiate is kind of like a gut check. Like, okay is this an aligned action for me, personally, to be taking my business. Do I, at my core, feel that this is right for me to be doing, yes or no? And if yes, do I feel grumpy or scared or annoyed or fearful around it? Marlene Leslie: Yes. Katrina Ruth: Well, too bad because you just said it's aligned, right? Marlene Leslie: Right. Katrina Ruth: But then there are other things where somebody might go, well for me, anything where somebody says really classic internet marketing strategy type stuff, where I always felt, like even before I knew what I know now, that it's all so fucking unnecessary. But back before I really believed in myself, I intuitively felt like I just don't want to do that and what I felt was, I felt a feeling of I just don't really think that I have to. But then I was listening to people who were saying that you do have to, you should. So I was like, okay. Katrina Ruth: It was exactly like I had a coach helping me in the love and romance area and I stopped working with her and I was so grateful for the work that we did and things that I did learn but I had to stop working with her because she kept telling me this is how to communicate with men and like teaching me rules, right? Marlene Leslie: And you immediately want to break them. Katrina Ruth: Right. Well, at my core I was kind of like, oh well, I haven't had results or success in this area and I feel like I don't know what I'm doing yet and I was still learning or something, like I was in a long-term relationship for 15 years straight and all of a sudden you are single again, I was literally like, I don't know what dating even means. Like, I'm not really sure what you do on a date, how do you do that, how do you get a date and then what do you do on a date, right? So then I went and got a coach, or actually had several. Marlene Leslie: As one does. Katrina Ruth: Yeah. And some were amazing for me personally and one or two, it was like what would be said to me, I was like, I guess you're right because you're the expert but at my core what I felt was, really? Like, really? Am I really going to learn like a fucking script to send a message, for example. Like an appropriate way of how you would word things. So, yeah, that's how you know because something inside of you says well maybe you are right because you are the expert but actually, at my core, I just don't believe you. I kind of at my core don't think I have to do it that way and to be honest, if I would have to do it that way that would be bullshit. Because then what is any connection that I form going to be based on? Katrina Ruth: And that's how I felt with a lot of strategy stuff for business. Like I would hear stuff or see stuff on Facebook or people would tell me things, you've got to do this, you've got to do that. And I was like, I don't want to, personally. I just don't want to do that. And the history of my entire life says that if I don't want to do it it's pretty fucking unlikely that I'm going to do it, no matter what I try and pretend. Like, you might say to yourself, you are going to do something and then it's not going to happen. But there is also that part of you that's like, I kind of think I'm smarter than you. So that's how you differentiate. So go to something like Facebook Live, well is that how you feel about it? If so then don't do it. But if you are like, well I think I'm just kind of scared of it and I'm not used to it yet, then that's a whole different scenario, right? Marlene Leslie: Yeah, that's a good point. Katrina Ruth: So then daily, repeatedly, it's a matter of identify those things which you know you would be doing already if you'd gotten over yourself and if you had the confidence and if you were like kind of that next version of yourself and then you just do it, you just choose that you are going to do it. And nobody knows, it's kind of like, I remember changing schools when I was 8 years old and I was like the shy, introverted person that I am, but I remember when I changed schools I was like, well nobody knows that, I can be the cool girl. But I didn't, I didn't like choose to or know how to, I guess. But we're grown-ups now, we know how to show off and allow that confident side of ourselves out, it's actually a choice. Nobody knows. Katrina Ruth: Like I said, when I first met you I viewed you as this slightly scary, intimidating woman and you still are that to many people with what you do and what you achieve. And so am I to many people as well. And then you get to know each other and it's like, oh, she's like me. Marlene Leslie: Normal. Katrina Ruth: We can be friends. Lets do a livestream. Marlene Leslie: Oh god. Katrina Ruth: I don't know, what else are you thinking? Marlene Leslie: I'm speechless. Katrina Ruth: We have run out of speech. Marlene Leslie: I mean, not really. Katrina Ruth: Never. Marlene Leslie: Not really. Katrina Ruth: Well, how you know you should be doing Facebook Live is you are a talking, you have stories and things to say. Marlene Leslie: Oh god, I do. I don't know if I can go public. Katrina Ruth: Oh please. Marlene Leslie: Maybe we can refer to them as "clients". Katrina Ruth: Well, really if we had recorded our whole conversation from the bar and dinner, that's some fucking high value entertainment. Like, you're a storyteller. Like, this is the quietest I've ever seen you in 3 or 4 years. But like this woman is like a pretty fucking out there crazy person. Marlene Leslie: Chatterbox. Katrina Ruth: Over the top storytelling entertainer, life of the party, dominant. All the things that we all are and then you're just on a platform where it's uncomfortable. But you are going to get into it. Tell stories says Kristine. So Marlene told me she's dating two men and then she finished telling all the stories and I'm like, didn't you say two? What are we up to, what's happening, I don't remember anything. Marlene Leslie: We're up to four. Katrina Ruth: The point is, you definitely have things to say and to share with the world and that's who you are in your normal everyday life. Marlene Leslie: Yeah, I just have to get over that fear. I've never had trouble exercising or doing a workout plan or any of that stuff, to me it's very similar, I equate this to someone I work with in particular who has never exercised. It's like, how could you not? Katrina Ruth: Right. Marlene Leslie: Like, how could you not want to go for a run? Katrina Ruth: How is that even a thing? I'm like, how can you get on a plane or go to an event or go do anything. Marlene Leslie: Or people that don't travel. I have friends that won't get on a flight. I'm like, I don't even understand how you live, like how you live your life. Katrina Ruth: Right. So anything that you do that to you is just really natural and automatic and people try to make it out like it's a big deal and you're like, that's crazy. It's all just a choice. Right, like at some point along your journey, even if it was way back when, you decided to be a fit person, same as me. So at some point along my journey I decided I was sick of the fact that nobody knew who I was and I felt like people should know who I am and people should frickin' listen to me, just listen and then pay me for it. So then I decided to be that person. Katrina Ruth: And it really is that you guys. You've got to understand, people are like how did you become so well known online or whatever and I'm like, because I decided to. I just became that person, I let the inner side of me out. I appointed myself. I keep saying this over and over again and so few people follow it though, like one in a thousand, which makes sense anyway because I always say it's the one percent within the one percent, but the ones that do go to the top fast. Marlene Leslie: But it's scary. Katrina Ruth: It is scary, it is scary. Like, I think about my visions and dreams that I've not yet created, like things beyond my own businesses, like other businesses that I want to bring to life and my empire and other things that I desire in my life and it's terrifying. You know that. Like what we talked about earlier, like putting yourself out there and pursuing something where you feel like, am I crazy? Am I just like a crazy person and nobody wants to tell me? Well, people do tell me that. Right? But it's that thing that we all have of like is what I feel inside of me real, am I crazy, am I just like losing my mind? Who do I think I am that it could be like that? Katrina Ruth: The rule is that if you feel it inside of you then it is available for you or it wouldn't come through you. I believe that, I believe that you don't get given a dream that's not your dream to dream. So if it comes through you then it's available and it's available specifically for you, not just in the general sense. And, if you are feeling and dreaming it it's available now, already. Marlene Leslie: I totally believe that. Katrina Ruth: It's not like for ten years away. Even investing in ourselves can be scary as fuck. Of course it can, investing in any sense, not just financially, but energetically, emotionally, with our time. It is. We feel the fear and do it anyway. You know there is that cliché expression, but I feel like it's so true, which is you know you do what others won't so you can live like they can't. Well I'm at the stage now where if somebody comes along and just meets me, they see the product of my decade, two decades, whatever it is if you really go back through all the years of growth work. So people have a sort of perception of me, if they don't know my story or get to know me. And what's actually happened is, I did it, I did what others wouldn't do for many, many years. As every single person here has in different areas of their life and now I do get to live like they can't. Katrina Ruth: Like somebody said, you're living the dream. And I'm like, yeah, I am and I did the fucking work. Marlene Leslie: Yeah, you have. Yeah, that's exactly right because a lot of people expect it to just happen naturally and you read a book on manifestation and you're like, well how come I can't think it and it's appearing in my life. Like there is actually some action that needs to happen. Katrina Ruth: You can, it comes from thought but yeah there's like a lot more steps than that. Marlene Leslie: But you can't just think it. Katrina Ruth: It's the daily commitment and process. I think it all comes from thought, you do think it and that's how it happens but because you think it you become the person. And that kind of speaks to what I was saying where I legitimately feel like I don't do anything. I'm like, all I do is whatever I want all day. I only do whatever the fuck I want all day but then when you reverse engineer it, you're like, I do a fuckload of stuff. For my business, for my clients, for my children, for my health and fitness, for my relationships. I do a lot, but why do I feel like I do nothing? Because I became that person, so I kind of thought it into being part of my being. I did it through journaling as well. Katrina Ruth: Like fitness, right? To you, same as me, it's part of who you are, it's got nothing to do with what projects you're working on or how busy you are or whether you are travelling or whether you are tired, whether you feel like it. So therefore, you can say that it's easy to stay in great shape and to be fit but then of course you do the work. Marlene Leslie: And anytime somebody asks me how I stay in shape, I tell them that I work my fucking ass off. Katrina Ruth: Yeah, you work your ass off but it's easy because it's part of who you are. Like, it's not easy in the physical sense, the easy part is that there's no internal battle of will I or won't I. Marlene Leslie: The decision has already been made. Katrina Ruth: There is no negotiation being made. And that's actually the hard thing, that's why people lose their energy and their power, is not in the actual doing of the work, like whatever you do at the gym or the studio or whatever, the hard part is that conversation in your head, will I or won't I, do I feel like it, what about this, what about that, oh my god. Who has time for that. Marlene Leslie: It's exhausting. Katrina Ruth: It is exhausting. Marlene Leslie: You feel like you've done the work and haven't actually done anything. Katrina Ruth: Right, exactly. So just make it easy by making it part of who you are. You are still going to sweat and push and hustle and grind and do whatever you do. Like exercising isn't like a production, I just do it, it's easy. Right, it's easy because you just do it. Like, I say all the time, things are easier that doesn't mean you don't put the effort in. Marlene Leslie: Right. Katrina Ruth: Cool, we could talk all night. This is how easy it is to do a Facebook Live. You just start having a chat. Marlene Leslie: I just popped a cherry. Katrina Ruth: You popped your livestream cherry. I've taken another livestream virginity. It's not the first, it's kind of a thing. You brought it up though. Like, I might have hustled to get out of the restaurant because I got excited about taking my pants off. Two activities that are not always connected but occasionally. But it was your idea, you said it first. Marlene Leslie: I did nothing about this. Katrina Ruth: You did, you brought it up somehow. And I was like, done, I'm in. And then what you do next is sell something. Do you have anything to sell? Marlene Leslie: Just my teaching. I coach high level executives. Katrina Ruth: Are you a high level executive who needs somebody whose actually not afraid to tell you the truth? Marlene Leslie: Tell it like it is? That's exactly right, yeah. Katrina Ruth: Well that's the thing, right? That's why you do what you do so damn well. Because you are actually willing to say to people's faces what other people won't say. Marlene Leslie: That's true. Katrina Ruth: Connect with Marlene and if you want to come hang with me in San Diego next week I have one or two places left. Message me on my personal Katrina Ruth page if you want to come to my one day soul shifts and money making day in San Diego on Tuesday and stay tuned because I'm going to launch my high ticket sales with ease workshop probably tomorrow. Have an amazing rest of the day, keep pressing play. Marlene Leslie: Bye.

Alison Spittle is a comedian and the star of RTE’s ‘Nowhere Fast’ sitcom. She’s been described as ‘highly entertaining’ by The Irish Independent. She hosts The Alison Spittle Show – a monthly Iive comedy chat show with guests. Pod Only Knows caught up with Alison and producer Sarah Garvey backstage at The Workman’s in Dublin

Debbie Scheer is a successful Denver humorist with a penchant for telling the truth about her life, no matter how raw. Edgy but warm, she catches audiences off guard and then they fall in love with her. On this third episode of One More Shot, she tells the story of how she used the worst moment of her life to reinvent herself and become the courageous comedian she is today-- and how we can find courage in our darkest moments, too.   TRANSCRIPT   Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:00:07] Debbie Scheer was a stay-at-home mom with two small kids and a secret drawer full of jokes. Then her life fell apart and after she stopped crying she found a way to reinvent it. Debbie Scheer: [00:00:19] I'm going through something so scary, I should probably find something else that's even scarier to take my mind off this really scary thing. Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:00:31] And that's how Debbie Scheer became a standup comic. She is my guest on this episode of One More Shot, the show about taking a spark of an idea and making it real. This interview was taped before a live audience at Setting the Stage, a women's concert and networking event in Denver, Colorado. Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:00:59] Debbie Scheer, Welcome to One More Shot. It's so great to have you here.  Debbie Scheer: [00:01:03] I'm so excited to be here. Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:01:05] I should say also that I left my notes behind. And so forgive me -- I'm not actually taking phone calls. What I'm doing is looking at my notes so that I can introduce Debbie properly. She is a comedian. She's an auctioneer. She's an emcee and a public speaker and she's performed all over Denver and regionally and I have to say you've got to catch one of her shows because she's hysterically funny. She's also the single mom of two boys who are six and nine. And this is the kind of courage that Debbie has, and the kind of comedian Debbie is -- she's created several new shows, including one called Sex Com, the show -- a funny forum about sex in which the audience's questions fuel the show. So what I want to dive into right away, Debbie, first of all is the spark. So you said your spark was finding humor in places that people don't usually find it - Tell me again how you said that. Debbie Scheer: [00:02:04] Right. I think finding that the nuggets of humor that sometimes live deep deep deep beneath the surface deep but they're always there and they might be microscopic, but they exist. Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:02:17] And very very deep beneath the surface, and that's what I want to do is just talk about your story, and this spark for you becoming a comedian because you certainly haven't been a comedian, at least not, you know, outside of maybe your dining room table, all your life, right? Debbie Scheer: [00:02:33] Correct. That's correct.  Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:02:34] So you came home from a trip a few years ago to some news that really jolted you. Debbie Scheer: [00:02:43] Right. Right. Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:02:44] Let's talk about that, what happened? Debbie Scheer: [00:02:45] I had gone to visit a friend in California, and it was four years ago this past February, or a few months ago, last month. And I came home to my partner, at the time, telling me, "I'm not in love with you anymore." This was after almost 11 years and two children that we adopted and saying that she didn't want to go to couples counseling, she was moving out, and, and that was, that was it! Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:03:16] And you had quite the visual image when you told me this story before for how you felt. How did you feel? Debbie Scheer: [00:03:22] It's not a, it's not an attractive image, but I felt like if you, if you walk into your kitchen and you round the corner and someone's standing there with the biggest cast-iron fry pan and they just hit you in the head, that is literally what it felt like. It was such a shocking gut punch. Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:03:42] And the other thing about it was that you were a stay-at-home mom. Debbie Scheer: [00:03:45] Correct. Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:03:46] And so here you are, you're a stay-at-home mom, your kids are, at that time, how old? 5 and 1? Debbie Scheer: [00:03:52] 5 and 2-ish. Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:03:53] 5 and 2. And so you don't have an income of your own? Debbie Scheer: [00:03:56] Correct. Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:03:57] And you've got little kids?  Debbie Scheer: [00:03:58] Correct.  Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:03:59] And she left and you didn't expect it?   Debbie Scheer: [00:04:01] Correct. Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:04:02] And so what was going through your head? What happened? Debbie Scheer: [00:04:04] I -- I was terrified, because I felt so wildly out of control, like most people do when they're delivered news like that. And I just didn't know what to do. My identity had been wrapped up in being a mom and I had left a job that I loved at a nonprofit and I felt just like I was out so far out in the ocean and there was just nothing anchoring me. Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:04:33] You know, I --I've been divorced like probably some other people in the room, and it, it jolts your whole life, you know, even if you're the one who chose it, I think the bottom drops out.  Debbie Scheer: [00:04:43] Correct. Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:04:44] And you don't know who you are, some days. Some days you feel great. Other days you don't. You know the whole career thing. Everything has to get reinvented. Is that how you felt? Debbie Scheer: [00:04:54] I did. I, well, for a while I felt like I'll just live in the fetal position and cry and allow my friends and your support system to come over and do what they do. Right? They nurture and take care of you but that only can last so long. And so I, I had this idea that I don't recommend people do, but at the time it seems logical, and I thought, "I'm going through something so scary, I should probably find something else that's even scarier to take my mind off this really scary thing." And it was stand-up comedy. Mostly because I'm terrified of heights, and so jumping out of a plane, I was a mom, I didn't want to get hurt. So I thought that's off the table. I'll try standup. Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:05:47] OK. So. Debbie Scheer: [00:05:47] I should have jumped out of the plane! Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:05:50] All right, so we don't have a ton of time, but I am curious, like how on earth did that idea come to you? I mean most people don't think, "I'm terrified; I'm in the fetal position; I'm crying. I don't know how to get to the next day. Oh wait a minute. Let me do something even scarier. Let me figure out what that could be." How did that come to you?  Debbie Scheer: [00:06:06] That idea or comedy itself? Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:06:09] The idea that I should do something scarier than I'm already in. Debbie Scheer: [00:06:13] I think because I'm a person that loves to have control. And I had none of it. And so I was just clawing my way back to try and find something that, that would -- ground me. And once you had that idea you said, "Yeah, that's it. Let me go do...?" Debbie Scheer: [00:06:30] Well, it was interesting. I love comedy. I've written comedy and never showed it to anybody because I was so insecure about it. And I I had a friend who owned a bar and they would do, they had a comedy showcase. And I went in to chat with her and I met the host and the host was so gracious and said, "Absolutely I'll give you five minutes," which was amazing. And it just took on a life of its own. Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:06:54] So you have your first show. Debbie Scheer: [00:06:56] Right.  Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:06:56] And you're walking out to the stage?   Debbie Scheer: [00:06:58] Yes. Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:06:58] How do you feel?  Debbie Scheer: [00:06:59] I was actually walk -- I remember this. I don't remember my set but I do remember this. I was walking up the stairs and at one point I thought, "I'm going to throw up." And then I took another step and I thought, no, "I'm going to poop my pants." And then I thought, "No, but they're going to happen at the same time." And then I got on the stage, and it was the most frightening -- truly frightening and exhilarating experience of my life -- and after those five minutes I remember leaving and going back down the stairs and thinking, "I'm still here. I'm actually relatively OK. Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:07:41] As in, you didn't die? Debbie Scheer: [00:07:43] I didn't die or do either of the two things that I mentioned before. Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:07:47] Right right right. Exactly. So from there, it wasn't like smooth sailing, right? You still have to make a living and you're still dealing with these two kids who are probably in some trauma themselves. And so so what was, what was the low point after that and how did you come out of it? Debbie Scheer: [00:08:09] I think the low point was just this this, creating this new identity. Who am I? I had been a stay-at-home mom, prior to that I worked in non-profits, and now who was I going to become from this point forward? Which has its ups and, and, like most ups, has several downs. And so it was just trying to figure it out! Trying to, yeah, I don't know. I can't say there was a specific low point. There are many scary moments there. Yeah. Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:08:41] But scary moments. And what do you think got you through -- toward this new life. I mean from, from nonprofit executive to stay-at-home mom. To being left, now you're a comedian, and more. And a lot more. [00:08:55] Right. I think what got me through and I told you this and I'll make it so brief but I was doing standup one night and I was doing comedy about my divorce and I looked out into the audience and if you're a comedian you're picking up on the energy from the crowd and the facial expressions and hopefully the laughter and people were laughing but there was one woman who wasn't and she looked miserable, so that's of course who I focused on. That's how we operate. And I was so in my head about it. And then after the show I was standing there and I felt someone tap me on the shoulder and I turned around and it was that woman. And she said, with that same look on her face, I loved your set. And I, and I giggled, because that's what I do when I'm uncomfortable, and I said, "Truth be told by your body language, it seemed like you hated it. And I'm so sorry." And she said the one thing that kept me moving forward. She said, "I just want you to know that I -- I recently went through a terrible breakup. I feel like I'm in a similar position and I feel like I now know it's going to be OK." And I thought, "Oh, that's why I need to keep doing this." So that was the spark. [00:10:04] So in that vein I want to talk to you about something that you have shared very publicly in a great forum you can talk about the name of that, talking about mental illness. And you have an anxiety disorder and she does a very hysterical monologue about this, I have to say. But it was also just incredibly, incredibly honest and out there. And, and so, she listed her skills.  [00:10:28] [VIDEO TAPE OF COMEDY SHOW] "I have these amazing skills, like really awesome. And I don't want to brag too much but if I could figure out a way to transfer these skills into a powerful resume I would land the most perfect job for me. Let me share with you some of these skills. I can walk into any environment, convention center, airport, restaurant, concert venue, Ikea, and within seconds I know where every single bathroom is. Thank you IBS. And every single exit. Because you always need an escape plan. I can travel down the rabbit hole faster than any rabbit you've ever seen and I can stay there and set up camp and really truly overstay my welcome. I can create scenarios in my head, images that are so dark, so intense and so very frightening, Stephen King would be jealous. I know, it's totally impressive. And many of you might also be familiar with these skills, if you live with anxiety. Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:11:36] So I found that fascinating, because I have anxiety and also because when you have anxiety, the last thing you want to do is tell people that you have anxiety. So you're -- here you are telling the world about it. How do you do that and why? Debbie Scheer: [00:11:52] I am transparent to a fault. If you ask my parents they'll give you a long history of that transparency. But I do feel like what connects us, is that ability to say, "I have this. Maybe some of you have this, and we're all going to be OK." And so it's like the story about that woman who came up to me after the show and talking about anxiety or whatever it is, it's a way to connect us all together. And that's why we're here. Ultimately I hope. [00:12:25] Great. So tell us a little bit about your next show because it is next Wednesday at Lannie's Clocktower Cabaret. [00:12:32] Yes. So I started a show with my comedy wife -- I call her. She's an improv comic. I'm a standup comic. And it's called "Broadsided Comedy, an Estrogen-fueled Comedy Show." And our goal was to create a show that would peel back the layers and topics that society would rather have us not talk about. And we really wanted to talk about it. And so the show on Wednesday is about self-care and it's at the Clocktower Cabaret, and its sketch comedy and stand up and improv and all that yummy stuff. Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:13:06] Debbie Scheer, thank you very much. Debbie Scheer: [00:13:08] Thank you so much. Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:13:14] So what I love about Debbie's story is that, you know, we all have one more shots at some point in our life where we decide to do something, some great idea we had, and sometimes it comes from a really positive place but sometimes it comes because we're forced. And a lot of us are forced because of a variety of things, divorce or an illness, or whatever. There's all kinds of stuff. And that sort of Phoenix-rising-from-the-ashes story is so helpful and so real and so positive and it's just really wonderful to see. So I was very inspired by it. I appreciate it. Elaine Appleton Grant: [00:13:47] And I want to end the way I've ended before which is just to say to all of you, when you walk out of here tonight, think about that. What's your one more shot? And write to me and tell me the answer and that is Elaine@Onemoreshotpodcast.com. You can hear the last two episodes -- the first two episodes -- of the whole series also at onemoreshotpodcast.com. Eventually it will go up on iTunes. Well, thank you all for listening and being here.  

Join us this week for our return to a regular format! We finished 91 Days, stayed current with My Hero Academia, and started a few independent watches as well as Paranoia Agent in a bid to watch something that might actually freak us for a change now that it's That Time of Year(60 Days of Halloween). We also talk about heroes now that the age of superhero anime is well and truly upon us and discuss the current streaming choices we all have to Iive with as well as the never ending debate on piracy.

Are we in control of our lives? Do we actually have a say of how we Iive our lives or are we at the mercy of the giant corporations driving the engine of our modern consumerist society? One thing is for sure ; we are not happy. Are we just fodder ,Matrix style, to keep the wheels of capitalism rolling? Yet we have free speach, political correctness , a free press. Surely these are positive signs that we have a voice? If not how do we cope? We gird our loins over coffee and seek mutual enlightenment.

Are we in control of our lives? Do we actually have a say of how we Iive our lives or are we at the mercy of the giant corporations driving the engine of our modern consumerist society? One thing is for sure ; we are not happy. Are we just fodder ,Matrix style, to keep the wheels of capitalism rolling? Yet we have free speach, political correctness , a free press. Surely these are positive signs that we have a voice? If not how do we cope? We gird our loins over coffee and seek mutual enlightenment.

This podcast is the first in a new series called Off The Cuff with Ali, based off of Ali Asghar Shah’s new column in MITT magazine. A month after a new issue is released, we will host a book club of sorts at the Men In This Town HQ at Fine Fellow, where Ali will lead a discussion revolving around the topic he wrote about. In issue 7, he delved into the world of classic menswear in a ‘A Class in Classics’. During the Iive discussion, he explored what classic menswear is, their brief history, what gives them their elusive status, and whether we have exhausted them. Have a listen and if you want to read Ali’s full piece, you can pick-up a copy of MITT magazine issue 7 at menithistown.com.

The Super Self Podcast Episode 7 - Break Free From Self Doubt, With Max Bormann.At some point in all our lives we are held back by that little voice that says “You can’t do it. Or - You aren’t GOOD ENOUGH.” This is the voice of Self Doubt. It will paralyse your success if you let it speak to you. My special guest Max Bormann all the way from Germany, helps people to turn down this voice and increase the voice of Self CONFIDENCE. I really think that you will find this episode intriguing, as Max has an amazing story and some great take-aways.Once again on this show, we go deep into what makes people tick, to help inspire you to Iive life as the super self.Tommy Gentleman, the host of the Super Self Podcast. :) Connect with me on Instagram Connect with me on Twitter Connect with me on Facebook Check out Max's website for his videos that will help you break free from your self-doubt - Max's Website  

We talk about Lent. Luke's is going pretty well, but then he visited me and I ruined it. Then Gomer shares his amazing experiences inside the Ferguson Unit prison during the Kolbe Prison Retreat Ministry. And Gomer got a prison nickname. My Facebook Post on the Kolbe Prison Retreat Ministry The experience of going to the prison was intense and amazing. The men in white (MIW) who were there for the three days of the retreat (Thursday-Saturday, 7am to 7pm) come from a variety of religious backgrounds- most were lapsed Catholics, some were anti-Catholic and some were agnostics or Muslims. The retreat followed the format of an ACTS retreat as closely as possible. We had four testimonies followed by table discussions, two by the outside team and two by the MIW. They were powerful, to say the least. Each table had 5-7 MIW, plus one member of the outside team and one member of the MIW as table stewards/facilitators. The discussions were open and honest. I was tapped as the answer man, so if men had complex questions at any of the tables, I'd get a tap on the shoulder and go and try and answer them. In the end, we had 3 or 4 Q and A sessions with the MIW peppering Deacon Bradley and me with questions. "Why do you pray to dead saints?" "Why do you believe in Purgatory?" etc. I gave a talk on the Sacraments and another on the Mass/Eucharist. Deacon Bradley tag-teamed with me on the Sacraments. We did things like Rosaries, Divine Mercy Chaplets, two daily Masses, and we even had an Adoration chapel set up in the prison chapel where each one of us took two holy hours, and the MIW team took holy half-hours from the beginning to the end of the retreat. We had Fr. Sebastine led a Healing Mass, which was very powerful for a lot of the men there. The people in the Ferguson Unit are gang-affiliated, life-ers, or long-timers. Almost all are there for drug-related violent crimes. These are men who know they are sinners but also know little else about themselves. They are labeled "prisoners", "Offenders," and "Inmates", but we call them the Men in White, reminding them of their dignity. Fr. Sebastine preached against the word "Prisoner", reminding them that Saint Paul did some of his best work in prison. If you are a child of God, no prison can define you. At the end of the retreat, they had an opportunity to express what the retreat meant to them. One man stood up and explained why he did not get his feet washed. "I was scared. My whole life I've only experience chaos, violence, and negativity. I never knew love. Here, I experienced the love that I never had before, and it scared me. I didn't know people could love like that, and I didn't know how to receive that love. I couldn't believe you would wash my feet and even kiss them. Who am I? I've never seen a man do that for another man before." I found out while praying before my Life Teen talk last night that a Man In White slipped his name tag into my Scriptural Rosary book, with the words, "Please remember me." scrawled on the top. He's currently in the prison's RCIA program. One of the funniest moment came at the end, where a man in white was thanking us for our work, then turned to me and said, "You have one minute to win me over on one issue that is killing me about you Catholics. We at a bus stop. The bus is coming in one minute. Before we get on explain to me this: Mary." So I plowed through as fast as I could (took me about 1:20). He looked at me, smiled, and said, "That makes sense. You won me!" Everyone jumped up and started cheering, hooting, and hollering, and then I led it into a "USA! USA!" chant. Then we all collapsed into our chairs laughing. One man was 70 years old. He will never leave prison. At the age of 7 he married a Baptist who told him he's not allowed to be with her and be Catholic, so he left and never looked back. This Friday he went to Confession and is now fully reconciled to the Church. One of the most bizarre parts of the weekend was how normal it was: men talking about their wives and their kids, talking about friends and faith. It seems so normal. I'm looking around at all these men sitting at tables and thought, "This could be at any retreat site." I was so nervous going into the retreat because I have no experience of prison life. But that ended after 10 or 15 minutes. It became totally normal. It was weird how normal it was. That said, we were dealing with convicted felons and men with violence in their past. They were in there for a reason, and many of those reasons were heinous. First Rule: You never, ever ask them what they did. Let them tell you. In fact, after that initial curiosity burns off, you kind of don't want to know. They are trying to change their lives here and now. We all know they have a past, but we do not want that preventing future conversion and the sacrament of the present moment. Finally, I received my prison nickname.

Episode 7 features Lifestyle Coach Lydia Wente who teaches us how to Iive healthy and quiet the chatter in our mind in regards to our relationship with food. We talk about avoiding the word "diet" and working on being healthy within your own means. Lydia has helped thousands of people across the world to become comfortable in their own skin and learn how to live good, feel good. Take a listen and she will help you too!!

Visualize Communication Success with Justin Ledford Justin's book http://visionstothetop.com/ More from Justin www.JustinLedford.net   Thanks for listening to Speaking with TJ Walker. The show about public speaking, media training, presentation skills, crisis communications, and presentation training. Please send any speaking-related questions you have directly to TJ at tj@mediatrainingworldwide.com and he will answer them in future episodes.   Please connect with us at Media Training Worldwide and post your questions here http://www.mediatrainingworldwide.com/blog/   On Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/tjwalkerinteractive Twitter: https://twitter.com/tjwalker Linkedin: T.J. Walker Youtube  https://www.youtube.com/user/MediaTraining iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/podcast/id1072936158?mt=2&ls=1   Receive Free online Public Speaking or Media Training Course today http://www.mediatrainingworldwide.com/give-away.html   Call +1.212.764.4955 now to discuss a customized media training or presentation training program for you or your organization.   For keynote speech and media inquiries, call +1.212.764.4955   Online media and presentation training at  http://www.mediatrainingworldwide.com/online-training.html   Media Training Worldwide teaches people how to speak effectively to the media and to live audiences. We train people on all aspects of media training, public speaking, PowerPoint Presentations, crisis communications and presentation training. Below is a transcript of the interview yeah 0:05 speaking the show about effective speaking in public to the media at work 0:15 and in life speaking with TJ Walker 0:25 my guest today is as close as it comes to a natural-born salesman as I've ever 0:32 encountered Justin ledford is with us by the age of 18 he sold more than a 0:37 hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars worth of cutco knives 0:42 I don't know what that is but it sure sounds difficult by the time you is just 0:47 a college it sold more than a million dollars almost 2 million dollars worth 0:51 of other products he's also the author of visions to the top a millionaire 0:57 secret formula to productivity visualization and meditation Justin 1:04 thanks for joining us 1:05 TJ thank you so much for having me i really appreciate it 1:08 so is it a myth or is there such a thing as a natural-born salesman 1:13 um I think it's a myth because anybody can be taught how to communicate with 1:21 people effectively and anybody can be taught how to sell a product especially 1:28 if they find a passion behind what they're selling you know at the end of 1:32 the day we're all selling herself and meeting with people i mean we're always 1:38 selling herself and so I believe it's a myth 1:41 I fortunately had great training great mentors and I literally learned from the 1:47 best of the best in the business and just followed after them and did what 1:52 they did and had great success from that philosophy follow the best I want to 1:58 hear about your mentors in the beginning in a moment the first share with us one 2:04 of your top nuggets from the book visions to the top what are people gonna 2:09 learn from this 2:10 wow that's a great question i truly believe that more and more people need 2:15 to access their inner spiritual self what i mean by that is we all have the 2:21 ability to close our eyes focus on our breath and we all have the ability to 2:26 some people call meditation it's actually known as visualization Olympic 2:32 athletes they they all do this stuff 2:35 Michael Phelps he just won the gold medal 2:38 two girls in the volleyball arena in the Olympics they just won the gold medal as 2:44 well and in their interview they talked about visualization as being the key to 2:49 their success 2:50 visualization is a practice where you in the quietness of your home or your 2:55 office you close your eyes and you see your day as if you want it to happen so 3:02 i have put together the the four phases of visualization and basically it i 3:08 teach people how to access a calm state phase one is just being focusing on your 3:16 breath 3:16 phase two is past successes or you're focusing on you you literally go back in 3:25 time and you see past images in your mind images that were you want in life 3:30 or a moment in time where you are happy somebody gave you love a moment in time 3:35 where you were celebrating and that's in your past and you cycle through multiple 3:40 times of your past that's past images future vision future visions is phase 3:48 three 3:49 that's where you focus on how you want your day to go and you see your day as 3:54 if it's happening right there before you at the highest level of success what you 3:59 want to achieve for the week 4:01 see those things unfolding before you and what you want to achieve for the 4:05 month or the year I go as far as five years 10 years 15 years and the practice 4:11 is anywhere from five minutes to 30 minutes every morning and I've studied 4:17 literally like some of the most successful businesspeople spiritual 4:22 leaders athletes celebrities and there's one thing in common its visualization so 4:31 let me play devil's advocate with a moment because I i certainly think that 4:35 visualization can be an important part of any successful persons toolkit and 4:42 I've heard Michael Phelps talk about that as well but i also know that for 4:45 example Michael Phelps has watched in detail all of his gold medal 4:51 winds from the swimming sessions he's actually not just visualized himself 4:57 winning gold he's watched video of himself watching gold and he's been able 5:02 to see the ultimate vision video in front of him so I so my frustration is 5:08 when it comes to communication is I often hear so-called public speaking 5:14 experts say close your eyes and visualize a standing ovation or 5:19 visualize your audience loving you and my point is don't even think about doing 5:26 that until you've practiced your speech on video and actually seen a vision of 5:33 yourself on video speaking the way you want it 5:36 tell me at are very contradictory or am i off base now you're absolutely correct 5:40 you actually have to practice 5:43 I mean there is a study but published by some russian scientist and they took for 5:47 group of Olympic athletes group one did 100-percent physical training group to 5:53 did 75% physical training and twenty-five percent mental training 5:56 group 3 50 50 physical and fifty percent mental group for they did 25-percent 6:03 physical training and seventy-five percent mental training and they found 6:07 that over and over group for was the one who outperformed all of them 6:12 yes they did their physical training twenty-five percent of the time and 6:15 seventy-five percent of time they did their visualization the reason this is 6:19 because our mind literally the neuroscience behind it are mine gets 6:24 wired even though we're just sitting there closing our eyes and tapping into 6:28 those emotions and feelings and senses and imagery our mind don't knows no 6:34 difference it wires itself as if it's already happening and yes you do have to 6:39 take action 6:40 you do have to practice some of the greatest speakers tony robbins zig 6:45 ziglar jim rohn they off you know as well as I know TJ they practice there's 6:50 the presentation or their pitch or their whatever they wanted to come across 6:56 multiple times before they went onstage 6:58 the book is visions to the top a millionaire secret formula to 7:03 productivity visual 7:05 zation and meditation Justin ledford thanks for being our guest 7:10 you're very welcome okay stop timeout let's pull back the curtain now that was 7:15 sort of the typical length of an interview if you were on let's say a 7:20 public radio show or NBC's Today Show Good Morning America 56 minutes now 7:27 let's step back for a minute just it and tell us what we're trying to accomplish 7:33 their how did you prepare how do you typically prepare for an interview like 7:37 that how do i typically prepare for an interview like we just had 7:41 yeah I literally get into power pose 7:44 there's something called power poses and weak poses and imagine you're standing 7:48 there with your chest out 7:50 you have one hand on the table your your your focus on your breathing 7:54 that's a power pose and then imagine the week pose where you're here maybe one 7:59 hand is on your chin or your arms are crossed 8:03 you're slouching over they've done Studies on power poses and weak poses a 8:08 person who's in a power pose their brain releases testosterone and decreases 8:13 cortisol levels whenever they're in a week pose it's the opposite 8:17 they lose testosterone and increased cortisol so long story short what that 8:22 means there is a woman in the Olympics recently and all ten girls are 11 girls 8:27 are about to race and run for the sprint from the jumping over those little 8:31 things and one of these ladies was in a power pose jumping up and down constant 8:36 state of a power pose and the other girls are just standing there literally 8:41 not doing anything and it was mind-boggling to me because I knew what 8:47 she was doing 8:47 I knew she was increasing her blood with testosterone and we're reducing cortisol 8:53 from the power pose long story short once the gun was fired 8:57 she flew down the track and beat everybody house this house this 9:03 associated with communication when you're in a confident state or also 9:08 known as peak state you feel confident you feel ready and that's how I prepare 9:15 i show up in that state of mine confidence 9:19 and a peak state with my chest out ready to take on whatever somebody has to 9:23 offer and Justin this probably won't surprise you it might surprise some of 9:28 our listeners I'm standing right now are you standing or sitting i'm standing 9:32 both hands on my hips chest out 9:35 ok it we're two peas in a pod and we didn't we didn't coordinate that advance 9:41 the other just practical reason I think it's a good idea to stand for podcast 9:46 interviews radio interviews is you're more likely to gesture move your hands 9:51 you're more likely to breathe more deeply and I'm not someone who stood 9:56 historically puts a lot of emphasis on the whole breath thing but i do think 10:01 standing and not being all slumped over is an advantage for any sort of spoken 10:07 presentation I agree 10:09 whenever you're you can breathe in you you have more time to think and respond 10:15 instead of being so like it's easy 10:19 I've been on stage before my first you know presentations and business and I 10:23 wasn't breathing and i noticed i started getting nervous 10:26 so it's important to take a breath when you're in front of you know we have we 10:30 have professional communicators here listening to us it's important to take a 10:34 breath calm your mind and focus on what you need to focus on to close that deal 10:40 or get your point across 10:41 let's talk about focus what was your specific goal in the interview we just 10:45 did and what were the three or more or fewer messages you really wanted to 10:50 leave with the audience my specific goal on I really truly believe I've had a 10:57 crazy amount of success before the age of 30 have made millions of dollars i 11:01 have multiple businesses that produce millions of dollars in business and it's 11:06 all because my goal is I want more people to tap into their inner power 11:11 self their their level 10 life i want more people to understand that we can 11:17 all visualize I give keynote messages all the time literally twice a month and 11:24 whenever i do the visualization practice i see people with huge smiles I see 11:29 tears coming down her face while their eyes are closed going through the 11:32 this so what I want people to realizes we all have a great power within us we 11:38 sometimes forget you know it's like going to the gym the first time you go 11:42 you might not be so strong you might run it might be difficult but the second and 11:46 third and fifth and tenth time you start to enjoy yourself running that's your 11:51 physical body 11:52 I'm talking about your inner mental clarity and focus and and that whenever 11:57 somebody starts tapping in that regularly that's when they start to 12:01 become more powerful so my purpose is to help people tap into visualization and 12:07 meditation ultimately so they become more productive and fulfill their dreams 12:14 so let's ask our audience let's ask them to give you feedback if you picked up on 12:20 those messages from the interview 12:21 feel free to to send a tweet to Justin and your twitter handle is with your 12:30 Twitter handle 12:30 oh my goodness it's that's a great question i am i why and for that you 12:38 know I think presumptuous my why I'm on my wife desert my wife handles all that 12:43 well but you don't have to use Twitter my question should be actually what is 12:48 the social media outlet you prefer people communicate with you on it so 12:54 they can find me on instagram at just ledford dot-com somebody took justin so 13:01 it's j ust led ffordd or you can obviously find me on Facebook Justin 13:07 ledford or of course my book visions to the top . com it has a contact form or 13:12 just inlet for.net no good rule for those of you hosting podcast don't 13:19 assume everyone thinks the same you to who 13:22 same as you do i'm assuming people like to give out twitter for instant feedback 13:27 but instagram is the perfectly fine social media outlet where I am 13:32 profoundly ignorant so i'm showing my pious there so thanks for thanks for 13:38 sharing that and go ahead and contact him on Instagram with any thoughts you 13:44 have on the messages now 13:46 mention anthony robbins I it's been probably 10 years but I've been to one 13:49 of his seminars he doesn't awful lot with visualization so do many of the 13:55 other self-help gurus you mentioned what's different about your approach how 14:00 do you how do you communicate differentiation in your brand of and i 14:07 don't mean this pejoratively self-help but it is help for business people in 14:11 more than just business but life 14:13 how do you differentiate your take on visualization well one of the things 14:17 that I do with the audience that is listening to me whether it's in a 14:21 keynote environment or if the reading my book are listening to the audiobook is 14:27 there's something called a dreams list and it's you know what is a GPS do a GPS 14:33 takes you to point a to point b as fast as possible and we all have dreams that 14:39 we might not be fulfilling because we forgot about him 14:42 we we are busy with work our family and whatever the case might be so what I do 14:49 is I tap into people's dreams and simply put allow them to just get out a pen and 14:54 paper and we write dreams list physical intellectual spiritual emotional 15:00 material psychological and we go through several others and then we list out 325 15:06 per category and the thing about it is when people don't know what they want in 15:11 life how can they expect to get it when you go shoot up up bow and arrow you 15:17 have to know what you're trying to hit and that's the concept with the dreams 15:22 list so I tie the dreams list into the visualization practice and when I'm 15:26 guiding somebody through the visualization practice i say certain 15:30 things where they're able to see what they want to happen in their dream so I 15:37 might need money might not be i'm not a guru or anything I'm just a normal guy 15:41 who has had a lot of success before the age of 30 and i tribute that too hard 15:47 work and visualization and our guest today is justin leopard he's the author 15:53 of visions to the top a millionaire secret formula to productivity 15:57 visualization 15:59 and meditation it is available on amazon i read the kindle version lot of good 16:06 nuggets there i would urge you to check it out 16:09 by the way this program is brought to you by media training worldwide if you 16:14 would like a free no-obligation media training or presentation training course 16:20 more than a hundred videos good media training worldwide dot-com and click on 16:26 the online school you can get that no obligation course Justin you do several 16:32 keynote addresses to various audiences conferences all over the country in the 16:37 world every month 16:39 what is your signature story that is an awesome story so when I was 18 years of 16:45 age I was having great success like you mentioned selling cutco knives which is 16:50 a really high-end kitchen knife that's made here in America and i cut my up i 16:56 was about to cut a pumpkin 16:58 i sat down on the floor to get better leverage i pulled a brand new knife out 17:02 of a sheath i put the pump the knife inside the pumpkin with my right hand I 17:06 put my left hand on the pumpkin and I push down and before I know that I i 17:12 dropped the knife for some reason and I felt this rush of heat go straight 17:17 through my hand I stood up and my hand was on fire and then all the sudden just 17:22 split open from out from my from my thumb all the way down to near my pinky 17:28 and at that moment I said to myself do not freak out I literally said that over 17:34 and over don't freak out 17:35 don't freak out what I I think I would be freaking out and because i knew i 17:39 could die if I'd freaked out blood 17:41 I mean I don't straight up man blood was gushing hitting my ceiling 17:46 I was hitting my fan was all over me all over my house my couch everything so I 17:50 ran inside my bathroom grabbed a purple towel rush wrap it around my arm went 17:57 outside started screaming for you by yourself i myself this is the day after 18:01 Halloween I went outside and I'm screaming how 18:04 path as long as I can and two people walk by me because my my apartment is 18:10 facing the the parking lot they thought I was joking they were literally 18:14 pointing at me like huh that's funny good prank and I'm screaming for help 18:19 fortunately somebody showed up by the grace of God at the you know nick of 18:23 time 18:24 drop me off to the hospital and I drop me off at the wrong location i had to 18:29 run to the ER and it with every run the blood was pumping from my arm with every 18:36 step and I get to the window and I'm like help help the lady said no no 18:42 you're fine just go sit down will be with you in a minute 18:45 I remember saying some curse words to her and hitting the window that she was 18:50 behind because I was dying you know and I go to the door 18:56 the big blue doors and I kick through the doors with all my might 19:00 ice cream how as loud as I can and the doctors they all they're pushing 19:06 patients this is behind the ER where doctors are supposed to go only and they 19:10 all look at me and start running to me I fall on the ground and i'm on the ground 19:16 bleeding out and this guy comes up to me he takes the purple towel off me it was 19:21 blue but now it's purple and he looks at my hand he's like oh my god what cut you 19:27 and I looked up at this guy and right in his eyes and I said cutco have you ever 19:34 heard of it it's okay i was still trying to sell the guy even though as died but 19:41 that was a great moment of my life I'd say that was a signature moment in my 19:45 life from that moment I realized you know I could make the choice to their 19:50 prescribing drugs because of the serious pain that I was in I I could have made 19:55 the choice to you know be a victim and play the victim mentality and all 20:01 woe is me but instead i realized that we are powerful we can accomplish anything 20:07 we want life and i decided to say no to what their prescribing and and heal 20:14 through my mind through meditation through prayer through this 20:18 organization there's a guy named dr. Emoto he studied water and the cells of 20:23 water something i highly recommend your audience look at and i decided to heal 20:29 myself and within a month the doctor by the way the doctor said you'll never use 20:33 your hand again he told me right in my eyes and I looked at him I said I will 20:38 not accept your diagnosis and then I woke up in a couple days later you know 20:45 within a week I was that back out in the field closing deals meeting with people 20:50 having a good time because i live by the five-minute rule if something happens in 20:54 my life and it's bad or good 20:57 let's just say it's a bad it happened I can't change it so why dwell on the past 21:03 you know some people get upset and bring it up a week or two or a month later for 21:08 me the five-minute rule i can i found out when i first learned about this 21:12 about 11 years ago I can be super upset stop my feet you know bigger and moan 21:17 but then it after five minutes I did that for like 30 seconds and i'm like 21:23 okay well I'm supposed to do this for five minutes and I'm already done I 21:26 don't have anything else to complain about 21:28 so after doing that the fourth or fifth time I realized you know what I can't 21:32 change it so let's just focus on what I can focus on and what I can achieve so 21:38 that's the moment in my life I'd like to share with your audience 21:41 anytime we go through challenges those are really just opportunities to see how 21:46 we're going to take it we're gonna grow from it or put our tail between our legs 21:51 and become weaker from it i chose to grow from it so how did you really start 21:57 selling your career at age 14 I was someone who was more comfortable public 22:05 speaking certainly than most kids i was one of these little student government 22:08 nerds running around giving speeches all the time and I had no problem doing that 22:14 but I could never sell anything I always came in last place for the magazine 22:18 sales in the candy sales for the various your baseball team your Cub Scout Troop 22:24 and I did try to sell i don't know if it was cutco knives but some sort of direct 22:30 sales thing I went out three days I think I sold nothing i was a kirby 22:36 vacuum cleaner salesman for three days so nothing so I have tremendous respect 22:42 for anyone especially the young age you can do that how did you do that 22:45 well i was actually mowing yards and doing odd jobs painting houses anything 22:50 of that nature at a young age I grew up in kind of a humble background you know 22:55 we didn't have everything 22:57 some of my friends more blessed and fortunate to have a nice home nice car 23:02 and my family went through a divorce at a young age and it was really 23:07 challenging I never wanted that to happen with my future family so I 23:11 realized it was mostly about money 23:14 the fights and stuff in my growing up so I realized I never wanted that so i 23:19 started as an entrepreneur at a young age I was that weird guy you know 23:23 selling candy in school I was you know selling the football tickets and and 23:29 just having car washes and and I always always like always very entrepreneurial 23:34 and one day I was painting a house i got a phone call while i was on a ladder and 23:40 was a guy named matt storm never remember it 23:43 he called me is super hot outside in Texas and asked if i was looking for 23:47 work I spilled the paint all over the house so obviously I was upset while I 23:51 was talking with him but he told me one of my friends had a lot of success which 23:56 I knew that guy was very successful 23:58 I went in for an interview and the rest is history and I just knocked it out of 24:04 the park once i got trained and started learning under the top people in the 24:07 business and what was the key to that just the ability to walk into any store 24:13 home and not worry about doors shut in your face or rejection is a numbers game 24:18 or how much of it is about just being a great communicator and good listener 24:23 once you've got someone 24:24 well you know in any business whether you're dealing with CEOs are trying to 24:28 close a prospect or you're dealing with your wife or husband or children you 24:32 have to know you have to listen to them and I wasn't afraid of hearing no 24:38 because you're right it is a numbers game so I'd go in people's houses and 24:43 just first and for 24:44 most how to win friends and influence people it's a great book I wanted to 24:49 become their friend first and foremost and by doing that if they like you and 24:54 they trust you then we'll do business with you 24:56 so that's what ended up happening people people like me because I was friendly 24:59 and I had a great product so they ended up buying it 25:04 so how've you continue to improve you obviously started honing your speaking 25:09 skills even if it's just one on one when you're 14 15 and selling knives 25:15 how do you continue to improve as a speaker and what what motivates you to 25:20 watch TED talks to watch old Ziggler videos you watch that's a great question 25:25 I'd say what motivates me I listen to podcasts literally every day on my way 25:29 to my office i rarely watch TV unless it's something very specific beneficial 25:35 knowledge because we are what we put inside of ourselves and if we're 25:39 listening to you know top-performing people speak and we're listening to you 25:44 know the best of the best 25:46 then it's going to rub off on us you know our level of income is in direct 25:49 proportion to the level of how much we're growing personally and we r who we 25:56 surround yourself with so i try to surround myself with you know very 26:00 successful people I'd like i said i don't watch very much TV unless it's a 26:05 documentary or something specific i do listen a TED talks all the time I love 26:10 your podcast and multiple other people's podcast knows that if you could share 26:15 with and thank you by the way but share with us some of the names of other 26:17 podcast you find particularly helpful very very good question i'd say Mady a 26:22 with millionaire mind set is one very good show podcast another one is how 26:29 Elrod with achieve your dreams 26:33 another one is the front row factor with John Roman the smart passive income 26:39 podcast with pat flynn those are a couple that just stick out to me but I'd 26:45 say the one that inspires me the most is John Roman the front row factor and how 26:49 I rod achieve your dreams never heard of those so i will check those out 26:54 certainly heard of pat flynn and do subscribe to his 26:56 podcast but the others are new to me so I will double-check that those out and 27:03 get the best speech you ever saw someone in person not necessarily on video or 27:10 Franklin Roosevelt's inaugural address but someone you saw in person the best 27:14 speech ever saw in person was in 2008 with a man named matthew kelly he wrote 27:19 the rhythm of life that book changed my life 27:22 he also wrote the dream manager that book also had a big influence of who i 27:28 am today Matthew Kelly is from Australia he's got this crazy awesome 27:33 Australian accent and he went up on stage and just dazzled me with how he 27:38 spoke his words and told his stories and it was just great man i left that 27:44 conference feeling like I was on fire and that was the best speech ever 27:48 listened to 27:49 ok and my next question it's okay did not mention somebody by name but can you 27:54 think of the worst speech you ever so on person to me it's peter low of the whole 28:00 success seminars to me he always seemed like sort of a bad parody of a 28:05 motivational speaker but is there anyone you can think of and if you want to just 28:09 describe them that's okay too 28:11 I can I can't on honestly think of like a bad speech that I've listened to I am 28:17 I could say that I've seen speeches where people weren't prepared where they 28:22 were shuffling through their notes where they weren't connecting with their 28:25 audience where they weren't getting their audience engaged 28:31 those are I can't nail one person is the worst speech I've ever heard but i can 28:36 say those simple things that if you're not connecting with your audience you 28:40 know shuffling your papers you're not prepared if you're standing in week 28:44 poses like i mentioned people can sense this stuff and those are some of the 28:50 things that i would say I've noticed bad speakers do any other major influences 28:57 on you as a communicator when you were growing up in particular TV announcers 29:02 are politicians you admired or respected because of their speaking skills 29:06 honestly my baseball coach he wasn't like a 29:09 you know the famous or anything but he had a really really big house and he had 29:13 a baseball field in his backyard and he was a drill sergeant and some when the 29:19 Marines or something like that and just the way he spoke to us he was caring but 29:24 at the same time he was Stern he was you know passionate and that the heat of the 29:29 moment like when we were in our baseball championship games but he was also you 29:34 know common collected when he needed to be 29:36 I didn't really watch much TV grown-up sorry don't have had nothing to be sorry 29:42 about i'm sure you will not be on your deathbed regretting a little TV you 29:46 watched yeah you just gave me a flashback talking about your baseball 29:51 coach I remember for completely different reasons the speech of my 29:56 little league football coach i was in fifth grade and everything out of the 30:01 coaches they were two coaches mouths was an obscenity and how I was brought up in 30:07 a very sort of cloistered protective Leave It to Beaver family great family 30:13 and your parents were mild mannered conservative southern baptist and I just 30:19 had never really heard a curse word other than you know once every five 30:23 years in a major crisis and i just remembered having this terrible you like 30:31 depressing almost like a slap in the face what I heard it from the football 30:36 coaches so it is amazing the things that can stick with you now for me that was 30:42 more than 40 years ago and that's amazing you brought that up because 30:46 things are ingrained in our subconscious mind forever 30:51 that's a fact and sometimes we can get rid of those things but our subconscious 30:56 is like it's like that you know hey you say the tip of the iceberg 31:01 while our conscious mind is the tip our subconscious is underneath the water its 31:05 deep its vast it goes on and on and on and on and that's your subconscious mind 31:10 clicking and saying hey remember that moment and i truly believe I mean that 31:16 I'm not the only one like i said i'm not a group if you know how to program your 31:19 subconscious mind you can achieve anything you 31:22 life i learned this 11 years ago when i first started in business and I've been 31:27 doing it since $YEAR and helped a lot 31:31 our guest is justin ledford he is the author of visions to the top a 31:36 millionaire secret formula to productivity visualization and 31:40 meditation available now on amazon and especially the kindle edition the 1i 31:47 read by the way this is speaking with TJ Walker you have any questions comments 31:54 suggestions for guests in the future criticisms critiques send it to me 31:58 directly on twitter at TJ Walker you can also email me TJ at media training 32:06 worldwide . com 32:09 is there anyone else you respect now in the business world political world media 32:16 world as a communicator and we're not really talking about their politics or 32:21 even what business there in but just their ability to communicate as far as 32:25 ability communicate i would say how alrod he is the creator of the miracle 32:31 morning which is incredible book that changed my life 32:35 he's one of the best speakers that I've ever listened to 32:38 same with jon berghoff jon berghoff is not very well known but companies hire 32:43 him like Vitamix he helped that company go from i think it was 50 that 50 32:49 million to over 200 million and one year he isn't very effective communicator i 32:56 don't really keep up with current events as much as some people do 33:01 I'm kind of in my own bubble of personal growth I like to listen to your podcast 33:05 and the other podcast i mentioned and then go close deals with people that's 33:11 pretty much what i'm doing throughout the day or giving speeches at 33:14 conferences let's talk about speeches you were speaking in an early age making 33:20 sales of your painting gigs everything else one-on-one but was the first time 33:25 you spoke and said you so okay that's an actual speech it's more than five people 33:30 it's not just a schoolroom 33:32 what was your first speech my first speech I'd have to say would be actually 33:39 at a cutco vent when I was 18 years of age I had an awesome summer I was 33:44 produced over at five hundred thousand dollars in sales personally and over a 33:48 hundred twenty-five thousand dollars as a manager I train people and taught them 33:52 how to sell and I was in room with 500 people in Arizona at a big conference 33:57 and I remember just the feeling of just nailing that conversate that that speech 34:03 people standing up clapping it was a great feeling man 34:07 well that's if only we could all have so many nice successes to start with that 34:14 is it a good benchmark some people have great first speeches son like Barbara 34:20 Corcoran the famed real estate investor who is now on shark tank always talks 34:25 about our very first speech she stood up 1,000 people and her just throws nothing 34:31 came out of her mouth and she ran out of the room 34:34 it's but things turned out for her to you know speaks all over the place it's 34:38 a muscle TJ it really is my first speech ever 34:41 it was a childhood play and school I don't know how old i was i was a sheriff 34:46 and I remember being nervous and you know feeling anxiety as a kid I remember 34:51 these feelings today and the first time I didn't do so well and then the second 34:56 time and third that you know you get better with practice 34:59 they say practice makes perfect but i like to say if you try to practice 35:03 perfectly 35:05 that's how you get it perfect and any star athletes have bad days had 35:11 strikeouts 35:13 what are some of your bad speeches surely you must have had some that 35:16 weren't quite as smooth as the first one 35:18 some of my bad speech is let's see i was trying to I'm trying to think my worst 35:26 speech i I've been brutal stages before I I've tried fallen off the stage before 35:33 that stuff my worst speech ever happened when i was $DAY i was young I you know 35:41 19 years old I started to try to sell to real estate agents inside of their 35:45 office 35:46 so I'm used to one-on-one personal person i tried to do business to 35:50 business sales but the thing is i have to go in and do a team meeting where 35:55 there's like a hundred or two hundred real estate agents and I tried that and 35:59 the people in my business that do that phenomenally but when I tried it I 36:03 didn't do so well and I didn't have that immediate success that I would use to 36:07 having so i decided to stick with my strength my strengths were one-on-one 36:13 with the people you know I've been referred to and that's the thing with 36:17 your with your communicating your audience that communicates find out what 36:21 your strengths are and focus on those strengths 36:25 that's what you want to focus on that's what I do in my business and in all 36:31 parts of my life as well and its really helped me go very far by focusing on my 36:36 strength I do agree that that's generally the best way to go too many 36:43 people obsess over the the two-percent area where they're not doing something 36:46 right 36:47 so for example i am just not a good stand-up comic i took a stand up comedy 36:51 class 20 years ago never got to the point where I really felt like it was 36:57 working even with a test audience of friends in the stand-up comedy class and 37:02 you know what I just don't do stand-up comedy and no one's been disappointed 37:08 on the other hand i was doing an interview at ABC couple years ago my 37:16 wife was with me and she said you started every single answer using the 37:22 word well I didn't say our arm but I said well so i did have a problem there 37:30 and i decided to improve so I wrote out the word well but the International no 37:35 sign around it like no left-hand turn no parking and I tape that sign on my cell 37:40 phone computer and a few other places and drastically reduce it so we all have 37:47 flaws i know i'm certainly not perfect 37:52 do you see any flaws you have now as a speaker where are you still trying to 37:56 improve as a communicator 37:57 yeah 37:58 I feel I definitely have flaws and I feel I always find myself doing things 38:03 last minute I i like to rush I like that feeling of showing up in a peak state 38:10 and just nailing that moment so I should probably spend more time planning and 38:14 preparing and by what i mean by that 38:17 I kind of live in the philosophy of ready shoot aim instead of the 38:23 philosophy of set of the philosophy 38:25 ready aim fire so it helps me in the past but it's also hurt me in the past 38:33 so I should probably be more prepared 38:36 that's one of my flaws and speaking of not being fully prepared 38:42 can you think of your i'll give the opportunity positive to your worst media 38:47 interview ever 38:48 and your best media interview my worst media interview ever and my best okay so 38:55 I'm gonna start with my best my best interview ever or speech ever 39:01 it was funny enough it happened last week I was a keynote speaker at a 39:05 conference in Arizona or it could have been a two months ago in Houston there 39:10 they both felt the same just awesomeness if that's even a word that the speech 39:15 was titled visions to the top obvious in my book and I basically felt like tony 39:20 robbins because the room was interacting their answering questions people came up 39:26 on stage and I did some mental psychological techniques on them the 39:31 connection in the room was it was really on point at the end of it people were 39:35 crying during in at the end people were crying with joy the negative ones in the 39:40 room they ended up being cheerful and happy and the managers of each division 39:45 they contacted me afterwards and they said their teams were noticeably doing 39:49 better in performance and more productive so that would have to say one 39:53 of my best training some cells people in different states especially that last 39:58 statement that people were contacting you after the fact seeing an actual 40:02 change of performance because that's the hard part getting a tier or standing 40:07 ovation for a lot of people can be easy but it's all forgot 40:12 sometimes hours even minutes later 40:16 yeah you got to give them like a plan of action you know okay so what did we 40:20 learn today 40:21 one two three and then you know you get them something to do rather than feel 40:28 people they will remember how you made them feel but if you give them a plan of 40:32 action with that feeling they'll go home and do that action since you made them 40:37 feel great now my worst interview man thats I i don't want to sound like i 40:44 don't consider anything but i'm i'm really trying to have a hard time my 40:49 worst interview okay so this was I here we go 40:52 I was on bourbon street at the crowne plaza hotel I was a keynote message for 40:56 young college students who were also in sales and there was just a lot of 41:02 distractions i'm going to blame it on the distractions like bourbon street and 41:05 you know a TD and these kids I was the last person to speak so they were ready 41:10 to get you know go and have fun 41:13 someone to blame it on that but I also that does seem like a less than ideal 41:18 scenario and inform hat for a serious interview is a 41:23 I well remember when I was young on Bourbon Street and listening to people 41:28 pontificate on anything serious who is not the top priority and you know as far 41:32 as your audience goes like if I have found that the introduction is the 41:37 biggest one of the most important things the district manager he didn't introduce 41:42 me properly 41:43 he just like hey this is just left he's awesome let's let's hear him talk 41:47 instead of what I'm used to this guy has succeeded ah he's doing great and here's 41:53 why you should let you know the introduction whenever you're meeting 41:56 somebody or introducing somebody make that person feel special and what 42:01 happens is they become more receptive to you and open to listening and this is 42:06 slightly different but related how do you introduce yourself let's say you're 42:10 at a speaker's convention or some conference and all the sudden it's 30 42:16 people the room and they say okay let's all go up us all stand up and introduce 42:19 ourselves for 20-30 seconds how do you introduce yourself in that situation 42:24 because I know a lot of people who are articulate and accomplished suddenly 42:30 turn into just the most boring name rank and serial number people when that 42:36 happens first of all I would stand in a power pose and I would smile and that's 42:43 a how's everybody doing and I get some odd get some interaction with the stage 42:48 or with the group whoever i'm talking to and then if there was no interaction i'd 42:53 say i'm sorry i can't see very well and I put my hand on my ear and say how is 42:59 everybody doing in the next thing you know everybody's like we're doing great 43:02 so I get some interaction and then save guys my name is Justin ledford i'm not a 43:08 guru I'm just a young man who has a passion and a dream to help people 43:12 become a better version of themselves 43:14 I've had a lot of success before the age of 30 and i just have a message 43:20 it's inside my book visions to the top I teach people how to use visualization 43:23 how to use meditation and ultimately live a dream fulfilled life you know 43:29 that's basically what i would do 43:31 I'd say whether whether you're super successful in life or maybe you haven't 43:36 made it to the success that you want 43:38 it's like a buffet platter it has nuggets of wisdom inside of it that can 43:43 teach anybody at any walk of life and that's something you're interested in 43:48 you should come check we should have a conversation and I did it with a smile 43:52 and just a hot you know waving my hands people can sense if you're if you're 43:57 stuck up and stubborn and you know I like to have fun with life i wear 44:02 flip-flops you know I'm just a laid back kind of dude who home wearing Crocs 44:07 right now myself away but with we heard two peas in a pod it sounds like an 44:12 awesome i want to hear from you I don't certainly want to end on a negative note 44:18 but i do want to know what you think is some of the worst communication advice 44:23 out there because anybody can call themselves a communications expert or 44:27 are you communications guru that to use that word that I think you're not a huge 44:32 fan of what i want to know what some of the best 44:35 communication advise you think there is that isn't it either isn't followed or 44:41 people just don't stop to think about but I also want to know what bad advice 44:46 is out there that you think people should really tion absolutely that is a 44:51 great question and I will say as far as like the best advice goes you know 44:58 there's a quote that I've i live by 45:01 let's see if I can find it it's from jim rome and he said I'm having a hard time 45:07 finding it would be basically said your level of income is in direct proportion 45:14 to the amount of time you spend growing yourself and as far as communication 45:20 goes know who your audiences that's one of the best piece of advice know who 45:26 they are know what their struggles r know what their strengths are know what 45:31 they're trying to accomplish know where they're having difficulties and if you 45:37 can know that come from a place of value 45:40 how can I offer value to this audience whenever I got that in my head by 45:46 offering value people that helped me in my communication tremendously so that's 45:52 a one of the best pieces of communication that people rarely follow 45:56 know your audience and offer value to them now 45:59 did you ask me about the worst communication advice yes I'd say worse 46:05 communication device 46:07 great question uh going up and not being confident not looking people in the eye 46:15 not connecting with your audience not interacting with them these are things 46:20 I've mentioned before but I've seen it before when they're up on stage in there 46:24 they're just kind of going through the motions you know conceded like that's 46:29 not good you want to connect with your audience and get them interacted that 46:34 would be my tip and are there ways of interaction that just don't work out i 46:41 will be honest with you I personally just 46:44 really don't like it when a speaker gets up and says how's everyone doing today 46:51 or you know who here wants to make more money to me always feels very contrived 46:58 and like they're manipulating me it's like okay I have to raise my hand and 47:02 say something 47:04 how do you how do you make this judgment between the right amount of engagement 47:09 versus something that can maybe half the audience likes be the other half thinks 47:13 is cheesy and manipulative 47:16 that's a great question you really got to feel your audience out and they're 47:20 you're right TJ there's people who don't like don't like that stuff so there's 47:25 ways around it 47:27 what you do is you change their physiology and what I do is when i 47:31 noticed that kind of weirdness in the audience 47:33 I'll get them to say everybody stand up please grab all your belongings 47:37 I need everybody to take a deep breath in and a lot of times as they need to 47:41 breathe and then ok next I want you to turn to your neighbor on your right and 47:45 give my little massage turn to your left and give a little massage and that 47:49 changes their physiology changes their mental state and then if I see it again 47:53 in the presentation I will literally all guide the audience if it's a one-on-one 48:00 will walk somewhere else and change the atmosphere if it's a group presentation 48:04 i'll change it up and we'll go we'll all get them to move into a different 48:10 location 48:11 whenever it's like a hundred or 200 plus people will have everybody switch seats 48:15 that changes the philosophy physiology of people and it kind of throws them off 48:20 a little bit and then they're they're back in peak state and final question 48:27 just what is it you want my audience to do well the is av audio sounds 48:34 pretentious amari audience what am I rush limbaugh been doing this for 50 48:37 years now what you want the listeners to the bizzle of this show to do 48:42 well you know obviously I appreciate asking i would love your audience to 48:46 pick up a copy of my book i'm actually for your audience i'm giving away that 48:49 first two chapters for free just so they can get a feel for it 48:53 I want them to read that at visions to the top . 48:57 Tom against visions to the top calm and if you like it be a supporter join our 49:03 Facebook community there's people all around the world 49:06 I never would have expected this Russia China Japan all over Europe emailing me 49:11 everyday telling me how this tactic or this technique has really helped them 49:16 and business are in their health so I want your audience to become the best 49:20 version of themselves and that how does that happen it happens by personal 49:25 growth whenever people are personally growing that's when better better this 49:31 begins it allows them to focus on contribution and and living a better 49:37 life you know as well as I know TJ whenever you learn something new you 49:42 want to share it with somebody right of course 49:46 so I want your audience to be the best communicators possible learn how to 49:51 visualize and definitely pick up a copy of my book visions to the top calm and 49:56 they could find you on facebook just by typing in Justin ledford that is correct 50:01 they can search for genocide for addition the time that's led f 0 rd 50:06 that's correct and also my website 50:08 Justin led for.net Justin led for.com and.net 3 w's . Justin ledford . net and 50:18 we'll post a link to that in the show notes as well 50:21 Justin thanks for being our guest today again the name of the book visions to 50:25 the top a millionaire secret formula to productivity visualization and 50:31 meditation available now on amazon 50:34 Thank You th-thank you speaking with TJ Walker has been brought to you by media 50:40 training worldwide for all of your media training and public speaking training 50:43 needs whether it's one-on-one training workshops group workshops individual 50:49 workshops online on-demand courses in person or skype training all available 50:55 to you from media training worldwide com 50:59 speaking with TJ Walker is the number one rated daily streaming TV and radio 51:08 show devoted to all aspects of speaking and communication if you received value 51:14 from this show then please subscribe to it at media training worldwide . com 51:20 please review the show leave comments and share it with your friends and 51:24 colleagues today

Ricky Diaz – S1E16 New Media Lab with Rob Southgate       On this episode, Rob’s special guest is Ricky Diaz, host of the Primatech Files Podcast and blogger for TVBinges.com.  Rob and Ricky discuss strategies for getting guests, launching a successful podcast, and insights into his social media strategy. Learn more, subscribe, or contact us at www.southgatemediagroup.com.  You can write to Rob at southgatemediagroup@gmail.com and let us know what you think.  Be sure to rate us and review the episode.  It really helps other people find us.  Thanks!    Ricky's Twitter @rickyjdiaz / Podcast @PrimatechFiles Rob Southgate’s Twitter @RSouthgate Email  southgatemediagroup@gmail.com Website  www.southgatemediagroup.com/newmedialab Patreon  www.patreon.com/SouthgateMediaGroup Pinterest www.pinterest.com/SMGPods/new-media-lab/   SHOW HOSTS: Rob Southgate SHOW EDITOR: Rob Southgate PRODUCER: Rob Southgate   #NewMedia #Podcasting #Business #YouTube #Blogging #Vlogging Transcription 00:00:00 In this episode of new media lab is brought to you by tweaked audio to get awesome headphones. Go to tweet dot co dot com and use the coupon code Southgate to get thirty percent off free shipping and a lifetime warranty or you can get through the link on our website Southgate media group dot com. Welcome to the new media lab. I am your host rob Southgate day. Very special s I have Ricky the as he is a podcast from our network. And he does the private tech by which is a show all about the show heroes. It's been really successful for us. He gives us a lot of insights into his social media strategy and kind of how that show organically grew into being such a large force. So here he is Ricky as Ricky thank you so much for joining me here in the new media lab, this has been a long time coming man, I I I was really excited to see that we could line this up for those that don't know Ricky Ricky is in the UK, I'm in the United States, and we've got some time differences there, and we're both super busy. So getting you on here. This is literally the first time we've spoken to definitely I just wanna say. Before we get into this just wanna say, thank you. Rub. Putting up with me, and my OCD, and how particular I can be. I know it's what me a while to Lilith to get used to it. So I'm glad that you know, it's been clear sailing with you as well. So yeah. 00:01:44 Oh my gosh. You're OCD doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I feel so blessed to have you here. A Martin I talk about that all the time. And that's another funny thing before you started doing prime attack. Ricky does the private files for the Southgate media group and four you started doing prime attack files, which is what we're here to talk about. You you were working for TV benches show ratings TV, which were partnered with and it's funny because we were talking online, but you were like the only one from there that I didn't know at I kept getting these notices from Ricky like loves TV McHugh loves movies and Katina's, and I'm going who is this. How how does he not hitting my radar this? And then one day Lilith sent me a note said Ricky, and I are doing the show, and I was like how do you Lilith, and I guess we just hired Ricky. So I it's great. But I think it was a long time coming for this to happen. Definitely. So Ricky tell us a little about yourself before we get into prime tech vials. What's your background? You're a new media person. That's for sure. So let's hear it. So yeah. Basically, I work in post production over here in the UK a kind of been doing it for a couple of years now. But most of my stuff comes from. Well, the the beginning of the story is by see I went away on cruise ships for a couple of years, and I I didn't watch TV. And when I go back, I just ended up binge-watching loss stuff and found the joys of Twitter from Twitter, I met Kyle, and blah, and then it will kind of started from the like I'd start joining up with them to from. We love we love TV more to show ratings to TV binges. And then fruit Kyle is where I met kind of Lilith, and that's where primates at clause came from now premature files, but I don't want to get into that too much yet. Because I want to talk about what you do a little bit proprietary files is about heroes. Are you a huge heroes fan is that why that niche attracted you, or did you just see it as an opportunity? 00:03:53 Oh, no. I've always been like a really big here. I was found. It was one of the TV shows. I used to love is a I'd say a teenager. But. Yeah, it was it was one of the shows that I I re-. Really got into inside light checking back on the mythology because there was so much extra content. The heroes. It wasn't just the TV program. There was like comic books that was like online games. They had a. Oh, jeez. And I was checking all of the out, and then when it ended I was working on all PG boards, and like all my knowledge from heroes came from that all PG Boyd because I was trying to make you as canon as possible while diverging at the same time, and I was on that site for a good couple of years. Then that was it here. A kind of left there to go traveling than when I came back started working for Kyle, and blah, and then heroes reborn came out. And I was like if there was one show I wanna pug cost about it's going to be here rose so reached out to Lilith and the rest is history. Yeah. The rest is will the reason that I wanted to have you on number one. I wanted to talk to you about your social media strategy. I wanna talk about you know, how you've done some of this stuff. For the listener the reason that I specifically wanted to talk to Ricky is with prime attack files, which from a from a standpoint of TV shows is pretty niche. We think about it heroes. Reborn was how many episodes dozen. 00:05:20 Yeah. Thirteen episode series. That's that's bringing back a series. That's years old that only lasted what three or four seasons full. And and with all that behind it. You have so far put together a hundred sixty four episodes or actually more in the in the can here and your your numbers from a download perspective are like quadruple, our highest show was the is the niche isn't it in it is niche? Yeah, definitely heroes was always kind of like a big. It was one of those shows that came about just a run round about the the good the sweet spot of TV in the second. And I think they called it the second viewing experience so like Twitter, and I think they had like little things that you could watch in the commercial break. So that kind of stuff, and it was one of the first TV programs. I remember I think lost was big on it as well. But that was the whole mythology behind it that you kind of have to look if you were really big fan online, and they kept to the little people that way, and they kind of stayed. And so I think the online heroes fandom is as is as much as sometimes it infuriates may it's one of the most passionate fan bases. There is whether they like it or not so yeah. Yeah. Well, it's to me. It's just fascinating. And you mentioned lost lost his actually when I've talked to other other podcasters to pop culture stuff lost his touchstone where the the two that come up every time the say, the reason I started podcasting was fixation on loss in a fixation on X files. Then I really think you've hit on something. I think there's a fixation on heroes. 00:07:05 Does that most people don't put at the top of their mind? But as soon as you said, I wanna do prime attack files, I'm going to be talking heroes somebody who hadn't myself who hadn't thought about heroes in awhile got really excited and started thinking, oh my gosh. I used to read all this stuff. And I hope the comics are good. I got like right back to it. The ironic thing is I didn't watch a single episode of heroes reborn podcast. So that's right now that was intended to be a thirteen week series. And they'd they said that from the beginning. But have you heard any rumblings are they bringing it back? No. I don't think at the moment when it when it was a when it finished its run. It was it's it's a very click by thing to say about the show has been canceled. But they always said that it was going to be a, well, it just depends on your point of view. Like, Tim crane has always said it was going to be a one and done. But you know, if it was more kind of a need for it. That there was a possibility of it coming back, and it didn't do too well in the writing. So a lot of people would said, oh, well, you know, that's what they would say. If it if it was going to come back. It would have come back. But obviously because it's it's been canceled. But on show. 00:08:20 I don't necessarily buy that with this. I think that that this series was meant to be a chapter and this series seems like something that has a joy, call it a second life it. Yes. It can live in other formats kinda like Buffy has gone onto live comics. And yeah, those comments are popular, you know, I think this is the same type of thing. So I I don't know how much I buy that is click beta or really that was just kind of wear their head was at and Tim kring. Thanks. I have other projects I can do this. I think it's just one of those things that like he had the time. And he had the story that he wanted to tell and he wanted to finish the story, and they will give him this opportunity. He took it. And now it's just a case of waiting a couple of years, hopefully, not five for him to think of another story. We told to quite a few of the riot is one of the riot is is really quite friendly with us. And he's told us that you know, they they do have a plan for a second season of heroes. They they would include it review. Because that's a separate chapter. They would call it something else. But they actually have an idea, and it will be something completely different from what we've seen, and that's all I could get out of him because he didn't want to tell me anything else. 00:09:33 I don't wanna push you away. Right. Right. So you've been really successful with the podcast. I n you also are a blogger, right? Yes. So do you do any blogging related to the prime attack files? Or is it literally just the show notes that you deal with? Oh, no. When when heroes reborn came out. I was doing the TV binges. I was doing a a five things recap on the episode and stuff lead to look out for in like kind of stuff that you could that that was being launched in future episodes when you so lucky enough to get a free game. So yeah, we we got a couple of days before he got released to the general public, and it took me like three days to complete or my ipad, and I had to complete because I had to get it out before before the general release. So yeah, we got very lucky in some respects. Like, there was a magazine that came out a managed to speak to one of the senior says on it because it was. Coming out that that much over here in England or I couldn't find any ended up sending me free copies. We go very lucky with some of the stuff. But you know, you have to take those opportunities while you can get it. No this. This is part one of the strategy that I wanna talk about you did get a lot of attention. You guys ended up on TV Canadian. What was it entertainment tight? 00:10:55 Yeah. You ended up getting some great interviews. You got some as you said some early release stuff. How did you go about doing that? And this is we're gonna framework in TV, but anybody listening. I mean, whatever your show is about whatever your blog is about their YouTube channels about you've got a subject, you're working. So you can take these ideas and kind of go out how did you attract that attention? Well, it was my my stuff was done through Twitter. I know there's loads em. You know, we've got all this. Social media's we've got like, the we go Facebook tumbler klama, but most of it was from Twitter and most of every all of our content stems from Twitter, and then the rest kind of was just placed on the other four on the other social media platforms. We manage to get followed by quite a couple of big heroes. Reborn. Kind of official site says the heroes universe which was very big. And we even go followed by the heroes official account. One of the biggest things that kind of was. Aw, was all the Lynch pin of everything was a Facebook group on Facebook cooled heroes fans unite unites and one of the admins of that when heroes was first about they were doing a lot of the stuff that we were doing they're covering everything from heroes. And I guess they took a liking to us and they helped us out with a low of interviews. And we got a like it was interviews from heroes prime. So. 00:12:32 Oh, the original stuff. But then she managed to gals quite a low of of the heroes. Reborn people. And from that that kind of from getting the interviews with like hit Tim crane was a really big one. Who's the creator of the show? Yeah. Then I think each one to get from that that's where everything kind of stemmed from and we were able to get the executive producer on the executive producer was able to put us in touch with a costing. And we live was really big on talking to one of the causing agents. And then you know, he was able and then we got a couple of the riots to follow us, and they quite like they like to a law, and you know, we've interviewed a couple of them a couple of times. So yeah, it was just really a lot of being in the right places at the right time. The Facebook group also got us on sir AT Canada, because I was put in the episodes on the Facebook group as well as mice live things. And the guy the producer from anti candidate sore and said, I'd love the toll ta and. That's where that came stems from while you actually had there was a lot more than just being in the right place at the right time in just said, I I I have a couple of questions. This is one of those episodes. I'm gonna have to go back and take notes, and then we listen again and take notes again, I have a feeling so so you you get in with this group this Facebook group, and they're connecting you how does that go and how how does all of this go because I know personally like we interviewed Doug Jones. And that was a big interview for me. I'm a big fan. And I don't do a lot of those types of interviews. Just because I just don't, but this was one I I wanted to grab and the way that happened was I tweeted something I tagged him in it just because it was relevant to him. He wrote back and said all thank you so much. I said is there any way I could possibly interview you he gave me his PR person. And we set it up is that the route you've had to go or is it been more? 00:14:32 For they've contacted you and said, I love to be on or have you seen their name pop up and you've written back and said, hey, can we make this happen? What what's out different ways? The Tim Tim kring in view was sell through the puzzle on the heroes. Reborn. A Facebook group. And she goes a lot of other interviews with people from heroes the original series, but a lot of the heroes prime a a love the heroes. Reborn interviews with Don initially three tweeting. I basically would sell the notification. So as soon as they tweeted anyone from the show, whether it be cost crew, right? As I wanted to speak to everyone about their opinion on the show. As soon as they tweeted, I would get a notification. I would tweet them directly straight that sometimes. But look, I run a hero's re heroes reborn pub costs would you have time to to for an interview. And, you know, some people got back to us like eve hollow pretty much as soon as she got the Email got the tweets she said, yes. And just told it's a follow us in. Then we arrange the time for that. The same thing happened with quite love them. Like crazy. One of the riot was exactly the same. But I think that crazy also had kind of heard of us through the I don't know if they blowing smoke into, but, you know, Zachary was like, we listen to you guys in the writers room, and I think that helps us out a little bit. But you know, again, I don't know if he was just being very nice. But yeah, a lot of the white is kind of go in with talking to us about it. And we're going to kind of try and do more stuff with that. Because. 00:16:13 Heroes reborn. The DVD came out and the like some of the extras were not very good. So we which wine to do a commentary with the rights and us all what a great idea. That's the idea. We've already talked to one guy we've already told the two of them. And they said they're up for it is just about trying to find time. So yeah, now, you said something in there again that I wanna I wanna go back to and this is something that I've I've gleamed we've had by the way people that listen to this show. We've had Lilith on as guest and the next person minute bring up his Troy Heinrich who was the first or second cast. I think Lilith might have been one. And he was number two. Troy does a blacklist podcast that has been nominated in has done. Really? Well, and in what you just said it reminded me of Troy because they have had the same type of experience with the writers room blacklist. And I think that might be a key. If you're doing TV more if. You're doing film or any type of subject you find out. What that what that step is? And maybe re tweet to that group. I know I'm sure heroes probably has a hero's writer's room Twitter account. Correct on doesn't oh. So basically when a soon as heroes. They started announcing everything for heroes. Reborn live from the the costs. I pretty much was on IMDB every other day looking at and seen who was Ryan episodes. I will try and find the Mansueto I made a comprehensive list of pretty much everyone who was on the show. Whether it be like, a recurring carrots, a couch who's on unit for one or two episodes, who I really liked the main cost the riot is some of the the makeup all is the musicians, everyone I made a comprehensive list on my on the primates at falls twits. And everyday I would search through that see what they were talking about. And I would have them. No fly like, it would notify soon as I tweet it. So I will straight away just being able to say would you have time for an interview talk about your time on heroes? And you know, a lot of the kind of not we got quite a few of the secondary carrots is. And I appreciate that so much because some of them were some of my favorite characters. 00:18:32 And the rise really helped us out as well. I think so. Yeah. So yeah, I think that there's a lot there to unpack in it. Don't just go for the prime people you want to try to build those relationships in. They opened the doors to other things. Yeah. Now, we keep talking about Twitter. And we keep talking about that at one point. I ask you what your strategy was because you were getting a lot of attention. Your response back to me was I don't have any you said, I have OCD. I just do this a lot. And then he and it's funny because you don't know this. But on my end, I was trying to figure out why it was blowing up so much. So I started trying to analyze all the little pieces at one thing. I did was I took four days of tweets, and I wrote down when you tweeted, and what you tweeted, and that was when I ask you about your strategy. And when you said, you didn't have one I found it really interesting because you naturally did a couple of things one was you did almost. You were almost right on for the eighty twenty rule. Twenty percent original tweets eighty percent, retweets. I mean, you were almost spot on with that in that for day. Mark. You also didn't have I tweeted three. And then I tweeted at five I it was just kind of throughout the day. There wasn't a rhyme or reason to it. But I did see a consistency. And it seemed like it could be unobtrusive. Now, if you're working from lis-, I'm sure that makes it really easy to the re tweeting thing because we're getting those notifications, right? 00:20:05 So it was just to me. It was really telling that it wasn't so much about the strategy as much as it was about the consistency of just doing it. And being cognizant of who is involved with the show. Well, it it will kind of started with the kind of pre heroes reborn because as soon as we found out the show was coming on mainland. Start thinking about how we can incorporate people into it because you need an audience. Some we didn't know, you know, this show had been off the F like five years. So we had to try and bring them back into it. So the first thing we did was we're going to do a weekly live tweet, and we're going to rewatch the episodes, and then directly off towards me, and let us we're gonna do those episodes as appalled cost separately. And that's how we started. We started off with really small numbers because we only had a few people who joining in. But we kept those loyal fans, and they came with us the whole way through and that's kind of where it started. So what would happen was? It was basically I I would have a routine. What I would do. I would wake up first thing in the morning, maybe about an hour and a half before I actually had to leave the house, and I would go through Twitter, and I go through the heroes hashtag, and I would respond to everyone, and I would re tweet anything that was good. I did the same with the heroes reborn. And that would be like a good forty five minutes of my first thing in the morning, and then maybe about lunchtime. I do exactly the same thing. But because obviously, you know of the time difference it would show up a different time in America. Like, it would be like the middle of the night. But it was something that people who would follow us would be able to look through when they go up. And I would always make sure it was the last thing that I did. So I was doing like that three times a day. I was doing like I was going to the hash tides of anything that was relevant for heroes or anything that I could join make relevant to hero. So like if there was national sibling diode put as many siblings in heroes. 00:22:05 As I could in a tweet. And I would sweep the out. We got really lucky that an eclipse happens in the right? Good timing. Yes. So we just like that was old day of may trying to find time of checking heroes and tweeting everyone re tweeting and as soon as someone responded, I would follow them hoping for them to follow me back in the you know, we kind of build up an audience that way. And then you tell them like, oh, we do a weekly rewatch. If you want to join us for a live tweet and anytime someone would join us for the live tweet. We would shout them out on the on the episode. And as soon as the episode went out, we would sweep them saying you got show on the episode. Make sure you listen, and that kind of stuff, and we it like everything from heroes reborn kind of followed that same pattern. We would also people for feedback. And no matter what feedback they gave we would read out. And then we would sweep them. When the episode came out we use tweeted to a couple of the because. Anytime someone from the heroes. Reborn costs tweeted out. So we we tweet at them. And they tweeted back, then I was like, okay. They're on the list. And I would have a list on my notes on my iphone of people. We would sweet every time a new episode came out. So we'd always always tweet out the same bunch of people. And if Austra while you know, I figured out that they were getting annoyed with I'd take them off. And I'd only do it if it was relevant to them. Obviously if we were bad mouthing people, we will take them off. 00:23:34 Right. But yeah, it it just kind of became a routine of stuff that I was doing and that was it. Yeah. Interesting. Now, you mentioned other social media, you mentioned, I mean, you've got clamor you've got tumbler Facebook. Now, you said that you basically create the content that you're gonna use to push out from Twitter. Just push it to those things. Do you do any type of strategy for those other formats, or is it really just you push it from here? And it goes where it goes literally by if new trailer came out, I would watch the trailer, and I would screen show any news scenes, and I would make like a an analysis of it for twit. So like something for one hundred like the characters that we needed. And then I would do exactly the same thing with that on the Facebook and on the tumbler, but I would elongate it because you you've got more more words to play them. Okay. All right. Just depends. That's important. So you're not taking your tweet and just pushing it to Facebook tomorrow. No, I'm your. Okay. All right. Just depends. Zuni Ted putting it there. But adding a little bit changing it slight. Yes. That is important Ricky. So an idea I'm really high on right now that I'm trying to develop for us NAN when I say us, I mean, we have eight shows in this network. It's going to be a hundred by by Christmas. And I can't obviously handle all of those you see how hard it is to handle one. 00:24:57 Yeah. So I'm actually writing like a playbook for everybody. And we talk about it on here. I'm kind of sharing it as we explore this. But a big thing that I'm high on right now is this idea of you create something so you take an episode of prime attack files, and it we pretty much do what you do you you find different ways of of sending out there. But my my big thought right now is how do you create multiple pieces of content off of that one piece of content that you can use for social media? So what I mean is you mentioned your top five list, you mentioned clamours. So you make you. You make five clamours off the episode, you make sure you send those out you make sure that you have screen caps in your tweet. Some of that stuff out you make sure that you have a blog post if you can or whatever. So it's not just the one piece of content getting pushed out there. Doing that. It sounds like you're naturally kind of doing that. I'm trying to develop a strategy little bit more. So it's a little easier for people to grip onto my question is how much do you push that one piece? So let's say you make your blog post your top five. Okay. You tweeted out when you're done. You put it on Facebook. You obviously stagger. That correct. Yeah. How often do we know? Don't stagger. It pretty much if I create like something for Twitter. I would once I finished with I pretty much put it onto Facebook in some blow. Just right. 00:26:23 Yeah. Yes. Our this. Yes. Yeah. Go ahead. No. The only reason I do that is because I I've got everything in my hand there, and I can do it straight away. Snow because I could push out like a time. But I feel like if I'm going to be doing something on Twitter. I'm wise, we'll do on the other two because people might not be looking at the Twitter at that time. They might be looking at the Facebook or they might be looking at tumbler. So I to me that's how I do it. And most of my stuff is pushed out through is done on Twitter. No pushed out, and it's repeated on on that shirt ends the rest, I kind of one and done it. Okay. That makes sense. And when you do this on Twitter. So let's say you take your top five list. How often are you tweeting out that tweet about the top five list, not the other content? We're talking about we're let's say claim it. Let's say you make a clamor, and you send it out once in. It's out the either or do you say you don't I'm gonna send out a clamour on Monday. And then I'm gonna wait twenty four hours and Senate again, and then I'll wait for days and send it again. Do you have any type of strategy like that no pretty much this push out? The only thing that I would alway I always push out every day is is episodes. 'cause that's like sounds really bad. But I'm just all about the download numbers shirt. So that so bit I said that's driven by so do you do you send out? So let's say it's episode one sixty four will that go out every day. One time will it go out multiple times at another question is will it go out with the same lake meeting? Do you send the itunes link do said the Google play link? Do you send the Lipson link? How do you manage that? 00:28:06 I only well, I would only do I only have indeed be I tunes link. But that's just because that's how I've been doing it. I haven't even thought about putting out different different links for it. But basically I would. So today's is my is my primary. Balls day. That's when new episode gets released. So I will release I will do a tweet, but each individual putt catches service. And then I will finish it with the itchy. And then tomorrow around about the same time, which is about eight o'clock, my time, maybe ten just depending on when I'm tired. Basically, I will just do it. In case you missed it tweet with a generally while we'll put the the newest episode. And then at the moment, I'm doing old episodes underneath it. I'm just doing one one extra what moving up one a day. So I will do that old throughout the week until the next week and the next Wednesday. I will put the new episode, and then someone so forth. Any case you missed it. Yeah. Yeah. And if like say, we're doing the COMEX once I finished the fi once I get once we get to the fishy, which the loss one, why would probably do as all put swoop to in case you missed it tweets out a day with all five episodes. So that you can listen to them continuously. Interesting interesting now fan interaction, you you're obviously dealing with them on Twitter. You're talking to people. Are you finding that fan interaction is key to this also? 00:29:35 Yeah. Well ago, we when we first thought it was only a couple of people who following us and a couple of people who would sweep out to us all the time. And you know, it was really good. Because at the end of 'cause we were doing this rewatch at the end of like the first season we were able to do a Google play a play we're able to do a Google hangout. And we had about eight nine people on that, which you know for a little show which had been off the F like five years. I was quite proud proud of it. And then we put the out possess puck cost as well. So we were able to let them know that you know, you you were involving them in everything. So it's the same with the feedback as soon as we finish one of the reward. She's we would say, okay. So what did you think of that episode? You can tweet us. You can let us know when I'll Facebook, you can let us know one. By email. We will read out anything, and we did that. And then like I said we would tweet them as soon as that episode became available to air. And then the same thing happened with the Facebook group. So I would put like every time a new episode come up. I would put a post and they were the guys on the admins on. There were really great about is just like pimping now are episodes essentially, and at the bottom of that in a common, I would want everyone who we had talked to will. He would sit in feedback. 00:30:53 I would say you got show in this episode. Make sure you listen. And then they would. And then the same thing happened on the Facebook group where I would ask a question, and then they would on, sir. And then I talked to them, and you know, it's it's always good to have that kind of fan interaction because it makes them feel Paul the the crew as we call them prime attack peop-. So yeah, it's restoring interesting. Well, what points haven't we talked about here? I'm sure that we're gonna finish. And I'm gonna have eight hundred is. But what haven't we talked about here? What points? Did you? I wanna make ranching we got lucky in the fact that primates at falls was available on pretty much everywhere that we went. It's not the thing about the name primate falls is it doesn't instantly you don't instantly think of heroes unless you're really big heroes fan. But I think it's a brand that we've been able to develop and with starting to move off into other things now. And you know, I'm as much. Yeah. We'll just leave that. Okay. Okay. Randy this important, and and take your branded at work it yet. Definitely, you know, you actually said something important there too. This is an ongoing conversation. I've had with people because we have shows with some of them have very unique names. Some of them are spot on wall monkeys podcast is about the twelve monkeys TV show. Private tech files about heroes. That may not. 00:32:16 Yeah. Ring enough said podcast is about marvel. It's about agents shield is what it was originally about. Now. All about marble. I think that in your branding. I think it's important to either be spot on like twelve monkeys or to do if you're going to do it find something that speaks to the fan prime attack vials because I was a hero's fan. I knew what that was. Yeah. Nuff said everybody is a marvel fan knows Stanley ends everything with enough said name mmediately. No, that's immoral show. Yeah. And then you make sure you have your tag, a hero's podcast, a marvel podcasts. That's how you build that brand. But worked at brand don't keep shifting it underneath. But also, we we stop every episode. We saw with the same blood, which is you know, whip hall the Southgate media group. This is prime attack falls Paul the Southgate media group heroes in heroes, reborn podcast dente will things in the heroes universe. That's how we solve every episode. And then we always end on the same end tag. All like, we have one of two enzymes, and we always end up with something heroes relates and whenever we did interviews with people. We were able to get them to. Ceo Rennes Agan, that's a nice little night as you have U S A must will note, you could have in a clamour. You could say, you know, you can have that. And that's what you need. And then you can say this is an interview with eve hollow they know isn't interview with the hall eve hollow because she says a name she says I'll tied at the end. And then the link to that interview. So yeah, you know, what it's it's funny. 'cause we when you talk about that beginning ending as a producer, and this may seem wrote to to some people listening, but to a lot of podcasters, especially new people. They don't understand that importance of having that beginning and the end and have something that builds the brand at the beginning and the end and don't stumble on. 00:34:05 Yeah. Because there's nothing worse than stumbling through the beginning of the end of your show, and it feel it you feeling like what did I just listen to? The other one it. Oh, you mentioned the the getting people to say it. I can't tell you how many people in the beginning when we interviewed people for Nuff said, or when we would even interview other podcasts talked other podcasters, they all wanted to say our tagline, which is at the mary-anne. We said, that's it. Everybody enough said, and they would also want to say Nuff said having that type of brand building is so important because the fan grips it. I know we're gonna stop moving, obviously. Because heroes is not is on. I'm gonna say hi is at the moment. Yeah. We're gonna call it. Wigan assault branding out raunchy out into other kinds of superhero shows book that on kind of model DC related because I think that's kind of another niche market that's not kind of being looked into. So when moving onto ALPHA's next and ALPHA's was very heroes. It was kind of like heroes bought Masai fi channel a bit more grounded in reality. And we've got about four or five episodes in the can. But it took us about three or four episodes to think of an end tag. And that was something I was really pushing to we needed a decent end tag. And finally got one and I'm really looking forward to like moving onto these other shows though as Ellen stain on prime attack files where it's going to be okay. 00:35:33 Yes. So basically, we're going to brunch. Everything cow, and it's just gonna be alpha files 'cause own private falls. We go about three or four different segments. We've got from its at falls, which is looking at the old episodes. We've got rebellion reborn. Which was looking at heroes. Reborn. We've got. Molly Walker which was to thinking about like the the kind of high. He kind of things we've got the interviews. We go rebellion. Reborn roundtable. Rebelling reborn review the lots of different segments on the primates at while. So we the way I'm seeing it as we want to keep that branding. And we want to keep that kind of that list of that body of work behind us. And you know, anyone who's an alpha found is probably going to be a hero's found as well. So if we only pick up people if we only pick up people now from ALPHA's, they know that when they go to all of feeds that the oldies heroes reborn an hero stuff that they can listen to as well, that's fantastic. And I have one more requests than for you. Yes. Look at the show powers yet. It's a mobile show. Isn't it though says it is power? I think as either Modelo DC, but it's one of the off shoes, but other staving off shoot I didn't even realize it was so I think that it kind of stands on its own. Own. And I think that it fits really well don't do the Cape. The Cape was terrible. 00:36:55 Ooh. The Cape complain about that one. I do my said it would bait you the next the the one that we kind of push towards which I think is going to is going to be very much like heroes in heroes reborn, and we're going to pretty much do the same kind of strategy or I will kind of do the same strategy for it which is sent site because that's coming out roughly around about the end of the year. Once we finish ALPHA's. We'll go straight into sensei, and it will basically be exactly the same. As what happened with heroes? We will do the the rewatch and live tweet and get people to get fans from that. And then we'll do sent site the new season to a weekly often. It's come out just hope that we can get everything out before the new season unlike heroes in heroes reborn where we would like mixing the matching them while. I'm going to request that you let us know when you're doing a sense eight roundtable because we did it for binge. Worthy. Ned? We love it we presented income. So, and I think that's a perfect fit to I think that makes a lot of sense with heroes analysis. I think I'll also let you know when we do the Cape as well. Can you please do please? All right. We'll Ricky thank you so much. This was so much information. I'm definitely going to have you back on this show. 00:38:14 I can't wait. I've got a process. This is a lot to take in a lot of things. I take notes on. I hope everybody enjoyed it as much as I did Ricky. Thank you again. What did you give your social media and let people know how they can get in touch with you. And if anyone has questions or comments right to him. So go ahead Ricky, so you can find you can find my podcast primates at falls on any social media, just such web, prime attack falls same thing with the with the pod catches of is just such prime attack falls on any catches as you will find us. And if you want to contact me, you can just find me on Twitter. That's Ricky Jay DSS r I c k y J D. I is Ed Ozzy if you're American all right, man. Thank you again. Ricky the problem. New media lab is a south gate media group production produced mixed edited and hosted by Robert Southgate, if you enjoy new media lab, you'll love new media labs social media Monday on the same feed. You can listen and subscribe to new media lab on itunes, Google, play Stitcher or on your favorite podcast directory, please rate, and especially review on I tunes or wherever you found our show reviews, Keith the new media lab on the charts, which helps other people find us. Additionally, please consider supporting us on patriot at patriot dot com. 00:39:32 Backslash Southgate meeting. Oh, and don't forget to visit our website at WWW, south could media group dot com slash new media lab where you can also find past episodes, and all our other content. Thank you so much for listening to media lab and heath creating.

Over the course of the last 3 months I have really been wrestling with the question of "how good of a listener am I?" I've always thought I was a good listener...I mean, my vocation is essentially to listen to people all day. But I'm sure my clients....and my wife, would tell you that I'm also a pretty active talker. I am pretty open and share a lot with people. But honestly, how well do I listen?   This question all came about when I started reading Adam McHugh's new book, The Listening Life: Embracing Attentiveness in a World of Distraction. Adam's book really challenged me on this question of my listening ability. Because what I realized after reading his book, is that most of us are not that great of listeners. We may think we are, but at the end of the day there are so many ways we can grow in this area. I interviewed Adam on this topic in Episode 51 of this podcast. And after reading the book and talking with him, I really set out to become a better listener...and to continue to really grow in this area of my life.   One of the benefits of becoming aware of this issue, is that I started to think of creative way that I could help my clients become better listeners in their own lives. And so over the course of the last few months I have been encouraging people in relationships...specifically couples that I see, and parent child relationships that I work with...to try out what I call the 3 Day Listening Exercise. It's actually fairly simple in its mechanics, but difficult for many in practice. Here's what it looks like in a simple breakdown: When I notice relationships having a hard time listening to each other, and even greater difficulty in validating one another so that they feel heard, I have been recommending this exercise. I ask couples to schedule 3 days of listening: That involves picking a 10 minute time each day, for 3 consecutive days...to work on this exercise. For example: "Let's schedule 8:30pm on Tuesday night; 8:30 on Wednesday night; 9:00pm on Thursday night." Something like this. And I urge couples to make it a priority by putting it on the calendar. Scheduling it reduces the anxiety of the partner who anxiously pursues engagement, and it reduces the anxiety of the partner who anxiously avoids engagement. Day 1: Designate one person the listener, and the other the speaker. The listener's job is only to do that...LISTEN. Don't think of a rebuttal; or a defense; or a question to ask; don't finish the speaker's sentences. Do everything you can to just listen and really hear what is being said. This also involves watching how you posture yourself, your facial gestures, etc...as those can communicate as much about whether or not you are listening. And avoid any of what John Gottman describes as the 4 Horsemen which are conversation killer...really they are relationship killers. The speaker's job is to talk to the listener about something they want the listener to really get about them; to understand about them. Often I ask the speaker to just "share their heart" with the listener. I ask, "What do you want your spouse/child/parent/friend to really know about you?" Sometimes the exercise is used to talk about one topic (i.e. money, sex, work, parenting, etc.), but often I just use it get couples to begin to really practice listening to each other. Don't get too caught up on what to talk about...it's really about figuring out what you want that person to understand about you. And as the speaker, your job is to communicate in as effective a way to get the listener to really get you. So it's not a time for the speaker to blame, or to criticize, or abuse the space the listener is giving them. Once you have done this, then set a timer for 10 minutes. Yes, don't skip this step. Structure is important, especially for relationships that have a hard time emotionally regulating. And the more structure you practice, the more capable you will be in using more freedom later in conversations. Then start the timer and go. Once the timer goes off...that's it! No extra conversation. No questions. Nothing. It's important to learn to sit in that anxiety of not being able to respond, and to work on regulating your emotion. So when it's over, go back to what you were doing. Day 2: This is a repeat of Day 1, but you switch roles. Do the same thing as Day 1. Again..it's important to remember that this exercise is effective in that it stretches out conversation, helping people in relationships better understand each other; helps regulate emotion; helps people learn to sit in the anxiety of the unfinished conversation for now. Day 3: On day 3 you are going to do something different. You are going to set the timer for 15 minutes and now enter into a dialogue about what you heard each other say the last two days. This is really an opportunity to validate and affirm the other person, rather than an opportunity to talk more about yourself and what you want to share. One can really tell after watching couples do this, who is really interested in listening to each other...and who is really more concerned about just defending their positions, etc. The beauty in the 3 days is that it teaches patience in the listening process, and it creates a beautiful space in the relationship that tells the speaker, I want you to be heard and known. And the listener demonstrates the love and care they have for the speaker by creating a silent space to take in everything that speaker is saying.   That's the exercise in a few simple steps. I recommend that couples, friends, parent/child, co-workers, not only do this one time, but that they repeat this exercise weekly, time and time again. Enough times that they eventually create a great habit that turns into a real natural way of communicating with one another. And I believe that if relationships practice this enough, they will see an increase in their emotional regulation and the feeling of being heard and understood. Give it a try and let me know what you think. Please listen and subscribe to my podcast in the following places, and then leave a comment letting me know what you liked about the show, or what guest you would like to hear from. Thank you so much for your support. iTunes -- Stitcher Player FM -- Libsyn People and Resources Mentioned in the Podcast Adam McHugh The Listening Life: Embracing Attentiveness in a World of Distraction