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Mr. Henry and Mr. Fite had the pleasure of sitting down to chat with Fred Mollin. Fred Mollin is an American and Canadian record producer, musician, film and TV composer, music director, music supervisor, and songwriter. He has produced records for many famous singers, and has composed music for movies and television for more than forty years.  As an artist, he has written and produced music for a series of children's albums, including Disney: Lullaby Album: Instrumental Favorites For Baby, peaking at #6 on January 26, 2001, on Billboard's Kid Album music chart; and Disney's Princess Lullaby Album, which peaked at No. 23 on October 25, 2002 (Billboard). He created the musical group Fred Mollin and the Blue Sea Band, composing and producing albums such as Finding Nemo-Ocean Favorites, Lightning McQueen's Fast Tracks, and others, primarily released on Disney/Pixar albums. Here's a short video about the new CD! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFcErmrkUOk Check out his new record label Melody Place Music here: www.melodyplacemusic.com   Check out our YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdGhqK_DWpRIKS45ICqN3eQ   ***Classroom and Homeschool Teachers***  Find our digital resource to help enhance your classroom HERE!   Like us on Facebook!    Mr. Fite Check out original fun and educational music from Mr. Fite at  https://brucefite.com/music and subscribe to Mr. Fite’s YouTube Channel   Mr. Henry Learn music and the piano with Mr. Henry by subscribing to his YouTube channel:  Mr. Henry’s Music World Let the music begin in 3, 2, 1... Learning music, having fun. That’s what we’re gonna do. Mr. Henry, Mr. Fite, exploring along with you. Learning music, having fun. That’s what we’re gonna do. Mr. Henry, Mr. Fite love hanging out with you. The Music Podcast for Kids!   Hello and welcome to The Music Podcast for Kids we're your hosts Mr. Henry and Mr. Fite - Music educators extraordinaire! The Music Podcast for Kids is a fun and educational podcast where we learn and explore the best subject ever -  music!     Legendary record producer film and TV composer musician musical director and songwriter and now record label president of Melody Place BMG, Fred Mollin is Walt Disney records most successful lullaby album artist. He has produced and written best selling children's music since 1998 and has sold over 3 million children’s CDs. He has worked on over 30 Disney album projects including Disney's best selling lullaby albums and album projects for Finding Nemo Lilo & Stitch cars and many more. We had the pleasure to talk with Fred about his first solo children's album called It's Great to be a Kid. So let's get to the interview with Fred Mullen.    We have a very special guest with us today on the music podcast for kids. Legendary record producer and composer Fred Mollin thanks for being on the show. I'm delighted to be on the show. So since we are a music podcast for kids we always like to ask our special guests how they got started with music so did you play music as a kid may be in school take private lessons? What kind of journey did you have when you were growing up with music? Apparently I didn't have much of a choice because as a young child I was quite musical and generally was found in the backyard playing drums on garbage cans. So I think my parents knew I was probably trouble. And so all my life literally as a young child till now I've been a musician. And did you take private lessons? Like did your parents eventually go okay we need to get Fred some lessons or how did that how that work out? Well I grew up middle-class in Long Island New York. My parents were not what we call... My parents were civilians because people in show business are not civilians. And I just had such a tremendous love for music and wanted to make music but it was really it was mostly self-taught. That's amazing. And so for many years you were writing music for Walt Disney records producing lullaby albums based on the movies that were coming out from Disney at the time. Can you tell us more about these albums? Yeah I mean I had a very deep life in music and then from really from 72 when I was a kid still 1998 I had done record production of many records and then I became a TV and film composer from 85 till till about 2001. But then in 1998 a few years before I stopped writing TV and film I got a call from one of my favorite people Jay Landrews who was very much sort of my patron of the Arts on many levels cuz he always would give me opportunities to produce except for during his life as an A&R person. And he had moved to Disney records and he said I have a great idea and asked to do an instrumental lullaby album. This was 1998 to do an instrumental lullaby album of Disney songs and other songs, do them very calmly with piano and strings or guitar and strings. And I thought it was a wonderful idea and I did that album which was called Disney's lullaby album. And it wound up doing really well. And I wound up doing seven others. And one thing we’re always fascinated with is the writing process of each composer. So Eric Whitacre he's someone we talked to he’s a choral and instrumental composer and he'll have like a musical idea then create a map. Like actually hand write it out to take the audience on a journey and you know so that that was his process? So what type of process do you have and maybe that process even changes from song to song? Well if we’re talking about the lullaby albums in particular ‘cause I've done so much different kinds of work. But the lullaby albums I would work with another person. Generally a piano player who is even better than me. And we would just talk about the ideas of the arrangement I would sort of sit with him at the piano and say I hear this or that I hear this and then he wouldn't embellish it. And then my dear pal my best friend in life Matt McCauley would write the strings for it. And it was a very organic process. I don't know because I came from a world of teaching yourself. I didn't come from an academic musical life. A lot of what I do is very much based on my musical instincts but not based on writing things out and handing them to people. right yeah that's interesting cool. So and now you're the president of a record label called Melody Place BMG and there's a new album coming out called It's Great to be a Kid. Can you tell us first what inspired the writing of this album? Well first of all thank you I started the label 2 years ago with my partner Lee Shockey and um you know I've always wanted to run a record label. But it's a small passionate boutique record label. And one of the projects that we did is very near and dear to my heart in total. I've probably done about thirty kids' albums for Disney records since 1998 till about a couple years ago. So I know kids music really well. When the pandemic hit I was here in Nashville and I was very much alone. And I was missing my two grandchildren who were one and three living in Toronto. And I decided to use some of my time that I was sequestered during and I decided to write some songs about the great things in life that they would get to experience. And I would go down to my studio every day and in this time I think it was approximately April or May. And there's not a lot of hope going on because of the pandemic. But I went down to the studio every day you know walk downstairs and went into my home studio and I'd write a new song each day that talked about things that I thought they would love to be able to experience especially once the pandemic was over.  And so things like you know the love of animals, the weather, the taste of food having your parents or caretakers put you to sleep at night. So I just wrote about twelve songs. And you know it was the first time ever that I've done it where it wasn't for hire where it wasn’t like Disney records was calling me saying can you write this. So I sort of became my own record label. And I didn't tell my partner who was more the business partner in the company. But I went and I spent my own money and recorded it with my great friends and musicians. And then I sent it to my partner and I said what do you think? And she goes we got to put this out. And so originally it was really done for my grandchildren. But now I hope it's for everyone. That's awesome. So the CD arrived at my house. Thank you for sending that. And my first impression when I opened it up was man I really love this CD cover. So to describe it I have it in my hand now the audience can’t see it but it's it's written it's written in crayon and it's just it's just it's a very simple but super cool. I just don't know why I just when I saw it I was like I thought I just love this cover. It just felt good. So my kids they’re three and five and we actually spent our time in the basement just playing. They like to play mean guy where I'm the mean guy you know. And we were listening to the CD to listen to the whole CD and just had a lot of fun and what I really loved about it was the diversity. So there was a lot of and not just in the content but also the sound of each song. Very catchy and very educational. And that the first song Play Time has a really fun groove. I really liked the groove. I mean it just I think it just really sucks you right into it. So I was just curious what inspired the song Play Time? Well as I said I would go down to my studio every morning early in the morning and that would just let my imagination you know go a little bit. And one of those days I just hit my little sequencer and computer and I got sort of an up tempo groove on the drums. I started to play Play Time. so there's not much to really analyze here.  I wanted to write songs about different experiences children would have in their young years. And one of the great experiences you have as a young child is to learn how to play. So there's not much more to it except you know I think I was inspired a little bit by the Paul Simon song Me and Julio by the Schoolyard which has that sort of you know vibe rhythmically. Yeah. And so when I wrote it I said it must have been inspired a little bit by that and then when I cut it with my musicians in Nashville I really you know was able to say to them have want this sort of  vibe here on the drums, I want this on the you know and it just became a little bit of a of a slightly up-tempo very uptempo. But a slight homage in a way to the Paul Simon song. And speaking of musicians, there is a variety of artists that you have on the CD. Musically that just brings a great amount of diversity so can you tell us more? I saw the EPK on YouTube where you give little introduction to some of the songs that was really fascinating to see the overlay of the folks in the studio and then hearing the audio it was really fascinating. So can you tell us more about some of the artists you work with and maybe how the collaboration process can bring life to the music in the studio? Well if you know I'm very used to bringing a lot of great musicians on the floor of the studio that's what I do. And except for the 17 years I scored TV and film from about 85 till about 2000-2001 where it was really done very much on my own. My favorite thing to do in the best thing I do is to work with live musicians in the studio on the studio floor. And in Nashville we have the greatest musicians in the world and the greatest singers and the greatest studios. So it’s effortless to make records. But on this project I picked a certain bunch of guys that I just love working with and we went in one day and we cut 12 songs in one day. And it was just you know again you have to remember that this is what I do well. And I think I stink at most things but I think I'm good at making records with live musicians. And so I have wonderful musicians to work with. The collaboration is effortless. And then what I decided to do on this record was to cast vocals so that I knew I wanted to do maybe four or five songs by myself. But I had other people in mind do other songs. I didn't want to sing every song myself. so I called in Tania Hancheroff. And I called Troy Johnson both top Nashville background singers and demos singers. They're fantastic. And I love their voices and their variety of sounds. And then also um I brought in Caryn Richman from L.A. who is an actress and a voice actor. And I thought she'd be fun to have on some of those songs as well. So we just spread the wealth a little bit and it was just done again like you said create different colors, you know. Yeah yeah that's cool and I was talking about this earlier about how the content that you chose was really great too. And I was going to ask about you know what inspired these different pieces of content. But you kind of explained that it was something that you wanted your grandkids to experience you know especially post-pandemic here. But I did want to mention some of the things like you talk about the kitty cat and the weather and animals and ice cream and cleaning the house and in the Bedtime one.  so you know it was just it's such a cool diverse bit of content as well. and I really saw this as something that kids could not only you know you would hope that they would experience it but even just learning about it you know learning about these things. And I saw it as something that little kids can listen to in an educational setting for sure. So was there something to that as well like when you are writing it, like almost like you wanted to educate kids as well through these songs? Well I don't know if I felt I wanted to educate although that's a lofty feeling. I would love to feel that way but I just wanted to write songs that celebrated all the things they could look forward to. And as a bonus on the CD are the interactive tracks where the kids can perform along with the music and with a little help from the singers. So thanks for that it's really as music teachers we were we really appreciate that cuz it's it's always good to have a in a great backing track in just a little bit a little bit of a nudge there for the kids to get moving so it's perfect for teachers out there who want to have the kids perform. Was there a did you what was the what was the goal with that was that to what was the goal to have it work out that way? I'm nothing but a veteran.  I've done so many records over my lifetime and so much music it just seemed obvious to me for children's albums of which I told you for Disney I’ve  probably done at least 30 that it will be great to have some sing alongs type songs or act along songs or join in songs. So I just decided I'd give three bonus tracks where the children you know the simpler songs you know the ones that we really had a sing-along vibe to them. So for instance on Kitty Cat very obvious that's the only song I had written before. I wrote that song in 1986 for my two-year-old son and it became a family favorite over the years. And I put that on the album. But I remember my son singing along so the Kitty goes meow the Kitty goes meow and he would do the sounds. So that’s what really gave me the idea. Why don't we do some you know alternative mixes where the children can join in and I wasn't thinking really about education as much as just you know that children tend to want to sing along or join in. Yeah that's awesome so yeah as we wrap up our time together what advice or bit of wisdom could you share with our listeners as they explore the world of music around them?  In working for so long as a freelancer and then for two years running Disney records A&R I learned so much about children's music that I am well versed in it. So I think what's critical is to make music for children that the caregivers also enjoy. And I think it's really important that the music has a certain I wouldn't say sophistication but I would say that music has a certain elevation so that the children are able to enjoy the moments of listening and then maybe they join in. So there's not a lot of like I said there's not a lot of analyzing and you know intellectual thought that goes into my making of music for children except that I just want them to be able to enjoy the different colors that I provide. And because I've done so much of it this record was particularly a joy to do. And I wanted it to be something that the children could feel comforted by. It's great. Well Fred Mollin we want to thank you again for all of your great music especially in this new album It's Great to be a Kid. The album is available on March 12th 2021 and it's great for listening at home in the car or if you're a teacher it's even great for the classroom. So we will have a link to the website in the show notes and hope everyone listens, grab the copy to enjoy. So Fred thanks again for taking the time to chat with us on The Music Podcast for Kids today and we wish you all the best. Thank you so much for having me on.   Time to wrap it up folks! Thank you so much for tuning in to the Music Podcast for Kids. We hope you enjoyed the show, and most importantly, learned something cool today about music. Remember to send in your jokes or even a topic in music you would like us to discuss by visiting our website themusicpodcastforkids.com. If you are interested in awesome educational and fun songs for your kids to listen and sing along with, please visit brucefite.com. Music is available to download with iTunes, CD Baby, and Facebook streaming platforms like Spotify and Amazon Radio. Links will be found in the show notes. If you are interested in learning how to play the piano with a fun and engaging curriculum geared toward kids, please subscribe to Mr. Henry's YouTube channel called Mr. Henry's Music World. Links would be found in the show notes. Please visit iTunes to leave a review of the podcast and also share the podcast with friends, relatives, aliens, whoever! Again we thank you so much for tuning in!   

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq-0x6oZRFk&w=560&h=315] What can you say, sitting down with the Noe family is always a treat. Fred Noe, Master Distiller at Jim Beam, and Freddie Noe, 8th Generation Distiller, are about as genuine and real as it comes. This show takes a bunch of turns. We talk about the new Fred B. Noe Distillery where new projects and small batch blends will take place, Legent, Little Book, and... we ask Fred Noe if he’s ready to retire. You’ll love his response. Show Partners: You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Weller. Tell us about the property. What are your plans for growth? What are the plans for the Fred B. Noe Distillery? How did you get interested in blended whiskies? What's the hardest part about blending? Fred, what was your past blending experience? What did you learn when creating Legent? How long was the creation process for Legent? Where did you disagree in the process? What kind of ideas do you have for the new distillery? Do you like focusing on consistency or innovating? Will Little Book always be a blended product? Did you always want to be part of the family business? Fred, are you ready to retire? Talk about the ham house. Any hobbies outside of bourbon? Support this Podcast on Patreon   0:00 So if we're going to do any innovation from was putting knob Creek on it, it needs to be in that knob Creek family you can't go off and have a run punch knob Creek. You know, who knows? 0:27 Welcome back everybody it's Episode 254 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your hosts Kenny, and let's talk about some new releases. We have touched down in Texas. Yes, our first release of pursuit series is now available in five different specs retailers across the entire state. Episode 26 is a 15 year old Tennessee bourbon, our tasting notes, our brown sugar churros with a chocolate caramel dipping sauce. It's got me thinking about dessert already. So listen up because there's only five stores carrying Episode 26 across Texas and it's only expected Retailers so you've got Dallas at 9500 North Central expressway in Fort Worth at 2750 South keulen Street, Austin, Texas 4970 West highway 920 San Antonio at 5219 does avala and Houston at 2410 Smith Street. Happy Hunting Texans with more pursuit series news Episode 24 and 25 are now available on seal box comm if you're looking to get your hands on another bourbon with a high h demon, Episode 24 is another 15 year old release that can be shipped nationwide. This one it's all chocolate milk. I know many of you are looking for something super unique and we also have a weeded bourbon from Finger Lakes distilling and which is our episode 25. Our last two barrels from Finger Lakes wet quick so we're excited to bring another one to you. So go to seal box comm search for pursuit or you can go to pursuit spirits calm and click the Buy Now button on Our website we also have some other single barrel picks coming in our 17 men to foolproof and to Buffalo Trace barrels will be landing very soon, so heads up to our Patreon community and pay attention to your emails when they start rolling in. And other release news Wild Turkey has announced that they are releasing a 17 year old bottled in bond under the Masters keep label. The Masters keep bottled and bond will be a limited release with approximately 14,400 bottles with a suggested retail price of $175. On the trade of new releases, the TTB has approved over 180,000 products over the last 12 months through April of 2020 which is about an increase of 5.1% over last year, around 8700 labels in beer there are around 42,000 products that were approved in the last 12 months. Wine 120,000 in spirits 17 point 4000 however, the one that has The biggest gainer is actually spirits because in beer, the last three months there was only 10 and a half thousand which is actually 21% less than last year. And wine there were there almost 30,000 over the last three months with is 22% less than last year, and then spirits by about 4.7 thousand over the last three months, which is an 11.3% increase over last year. Now let's talk about some industry news. Earlier this year the Indiana alcohol and tobacco commission denied total wine a liquor license in the state because it does not meet the state's residency minimum requirements. Under current state law, at least 60% of a company's common stock must be owned by people who have lived in Indiana for five years. In true total wine style. The retailer promptly filed lawsuit against the agency and bit based on the Supreme Court opinions on Granholm and total wine versus Tennessee. The district court's decision will grant to the retailer's preliminary injunction prohibiting state from enforcing its residency requirement. This is again one more Domino to fall where we will soon see more interstate commerce law start lifting. And for today's podcast, what can you say? sitting down with the nose, it's always a treat Fred and Freddy note are about as genuine and as real as it comes in the show. It's gonna take a bunch of turns. We talk about the Fred Dino distillery legend, little book blending. And we asked Fred No, catch this one. If he's ready to retire. I think you might be shocked at his answer, and we're not going to give it away. All right, so Joe from barrel bourbon wants you to know that it's gotten a whole lot easier to get their unique cat strength whiskies from around the world. Just visit barrel bourbon, calm today, and click the Buy Now button. Up next we got Fred minich with above the char, so continue to stay safe and enjoy the show. 4:52 I'm Fred Minnick. And this is above the char Oh, I opened my email with excitement when I saw that headline, new welder single barrel. Oh boy have we been waiting on this one? Have we known about it for so long and wanted to see that press release and see the price on and how it would be distributed and where? how we could get it. Oh, I couldn't wait to read about it. It was a few paragraphs long. And you know it said MSRP of 4999. Now, listen, I love weather. I love weather weather is probably I think the most successful product line and all of bourbon you got a special reserve allocated? Well our 107 antique allocated well a 12 year old allocated well our foolproof allocated, William LaRue Weller super allocated and every single one of those over the course of my career has had 90 points or higher from me and they're all typically quite delicious and those that aren't supremely delicious are better than Pretty much just about everything else in their category. So it's it's a great line of whiskey and Buffalo Trace does such an amazing job there whiskies so good. But the fact of the matter is, as soon as that gets into stores, that MSRP of 4999 will be shot all to hell by household retailers who want to mark it up for 100% by flippers who go in and buy a bottle and find somebody on the internet Who will pay two $300 for it. I know there's no easy way to do this. And I know Buffalo Trace really, really does hope that you you the bourbon fan can be that one person who gets it for 4999 and they think that this is the way to keep everybody engaged and hope that that price keeps them coming back for more. But we got to be realistic. These SRP s For whiskey, that's so great. So great. They're just they're just not. They're just not there. I would love to be able to pay $50 for this whiskey, I really would. But the fact of the matter is, I would be willing to pay far more. And I don't know this. I don't know this. And the reason why I say the reason to say I'd be willing to I'd love to buy it at that SRP. Don't get me wrong. But I wonder if if they raise the SRP, just enough to cartel the retailers from increasing it from 4999 to 100. Or if it was just enough to cut into the profit margins of a flipper. I wonder if that would stop some of it. Now, I don't know it's all based on consumer behavior. And right now we're all acting very differently. So maybe this is the one time because of the virus, maybe this is the one time we will actually see a suggested retail price of a Weller be just that on the shelf. And you know, if there's anything good come from a pandemic, which few and far between, maybe that's at least one positive we can take out of it. Now, not even that it's that positive, because still, we're in a friggin pandemic. And that sucks. But I do hope that you can find it on the shelf at your local retailer for 4999. And if you do find one of those, if there's two bottles there, grab both of them. Call me and I'll get the other one from you. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, I've got some great news. I'm so excited about this while the pandemic has taken away 100% of my live events, I mean, bourbon and beyond gone, all these private tastings I've had gone. I now have a way to book me for private tastings. Go to Fred MiniK Topeka dot live. That's Fred MiniK dot Topeka dot live and you You can book me for a private tasting. I've also got a regular Lecture Series setup, called bourbon revealed. The history myths and scams. So if you wanna learn about bourbon scams, go check it out. But that's this week's above the char Until next week, cheers. 9:21 Welcome back to episode of bourbon pursuit, the official podcast of bourbon. Kinney and Ryan headed down to Claremont, Kentucky today, sitting in an office that we've we've been familiar with before, we had an opportunity to sit with this master distiller one previous time on the podcast, but now we got him and his son on here, the next in line, hopefully to take over the throne. But, you know, this is also an opportunity that first time we've had one of these people on the guests or on on the podcast, but you've also had a history with one of our guests as well, too. 9:51 I guess you said yeah, we were. Well, we play football together basketball. went to the same high school. I'm a little older, he's probably more mature than I 10:01 wouldn't say 10:02 but yeah I was good sharing some funny stories about football and stuff so now I'm happy to see Friday It's been a while so I always forget out great the view as to when we come here like I mean when Do y'all ever just walk out you're like damn you know oh amazing but 10:19 sit on the front porch a lot. Yeah, I just want to get away from emails Squadron sit. Yeah, marinate. I see what's going on. Because when the sun shining and it's 10:27 nice. Yeah, so 10:29 super camera row, you'll see a lot of photos or just random sunsets or sunrises here just because you know, sometimes you come in and you just kind of takes your breath because like you say, sometimes you take it for granted even Oh, now you know being here every day. 10:42 Well, yeah, when I grew up here, you drive to 45 Volvo and you like, Don't even think twice about Bernheim forest or anything now I'm like looking at it's like it's this magical place. Go see the 10:51 giants. 10:55 So you've heard their voices now. So today on the show, we have Fred and Freddie no master distiller And the in training, if you will to be taken over there one day of Jim Beam. So fellas again, Fred, welcome back, Freddie. Glad to have you on back. Yeah. So yeah, I kind of want to talk about that view a little bit more too because I think it's something that is kind of wrong. You kind of put it the best way to kind of like takes your breath away a little bit. You know, you probably it's one of those things that it might be in your backyard. You only think about it, you know, even being in Louisville. everybody's like, Oh, we think a slugger museum and like, I've probably been there since I was to grade school. Almost like you just don't think about it when it's in your backyard. But it's it's awesome to finally like come up here and you said probably after that day, you just kind of go out there. Pour soft glass and kick it in the rock or something like that. 11:43 Absolutely. It's perfect spot and I want to set up my office up here. As I 11:48 hit that watering hole, you know, after hours. 11:51 I used to be in the basement with no windows where 11:54 maybe they figured they'd kept me in jail long enough. It was time to turn me loose. 11:58 Yes. Let you see the light When did when did that happen? One of the we're like we're because so anybody that's unfamiliar with the grounds, the visitor centers. 12:07 The caddy corner to this bigger White House that you see over here. Where was the when did the move happen? Well, in 2012, we opened the steel house, and our Chief Marketing Officer at the time, I thought that I should be closer to the visitors because he'd saw my interaction with people just walking around. And he said, we need to get your work closer to the folks that are coming out of season. Why don't we put your office in the beam house, which is kind of ironic. Baker beam, my cousin gave me a picture of me in the same room where I am where my office is, when I was two years old, sitting in my dad's lap with my mom. So it was kind of he said, You're coming home full circle, and I'll come right back to where I was when I was two years old. And actually my dad sits just about where that easy chair was Booker was sitting in and we have here real close and being Baker actually lived here. This house he was the last beam family member and we turned it into offices and conference room upstairs. So in 2012 mobs came from down below the hill to the top of the hill. So 13:11 my vote would have been the knob Creek house, you know, to like get away from everyone get a 13:16 nice view when they when they redid the house up there. Yeah, I saw be my office. I said we'll never find you. 13:24 You're on down. 13:25 That's the point. Yeah, 13:26 well, so I guess I don't really know about the knob Creek house. So where is the knob Creek couser. I'm assuming it's by knob Creek, but 13:32 no, actually, it's on the property here at Claremont. And it's kind of funny how we acquired it. We went into it. It was owned by the everbank family, which owned the Cadillac Dealer in Louisville back when Jim Beam was was still running the distillery and I guess they had signed a some kind of agreement that we could utilize that water source. There's a lake back there. Use that water source when we needed it for distillation purposes and somewhere that had gotten lost and so in the was it early 90s I think is like 92 or 93. We ended up buying this property to gain access to the water. And then through purchasing it we actually found out that we already had right of use of the water. So we didn't nearly need the property after all, but the knob Creek team put up some money to redo the house. The house was kind of falling down, because like I said, we were there for just the water. And now it's kind of turned into kind of a little getaway place. We've got up on the hillside on the other Hill, we're on one Hill. If you go back down to planting up on the other side, 14:33 on Airbnb 14:40 it was the White House on Yeah, they're on. They're on Airbnb. So it's a pretty cool place. It's got a nice Lake there in the back. It's up, as we say kind of up in the holler. So there's not much. Not much going on up there. Dad's kind of got a little funny story about some people that stayed it's kind of good. I want her to hear this. I want her to complaint, you know and the whole time as we let Customers are coming in to purchase barrels or you know just coming to visit the client to stay there it's a three bedroom house and there was a group from New York bar owners and went up and visited them and they got him settled in and live next morning and came to the office as How was it? I don't know man sir. is too dark and too quiet. I 15:22 guess if you come from man had like good like sound machines have their 15:26 sleep in New York they used to yeah horns and he has a discerns and then up there there's no streetlights Yeah, so I mean you know the dark when the sun goes down, it's dark. I said well, we could had a lot of fun with him. We just snuck up burned picked on the wind. It's funny say the banjo in the background or something. 15:46 Really get them scared, 15:47 right? Fair enough as it was it sounded like but 15:50 you know, I'll have to read the review on Airbnb. Great place Lake but to quiet. 15:56 Three and a half, three and a half star 16:00 So the other thing I want to talk about the property alone, I mean, the bourbon boom is still growing. You all are still building warehouses. I mean, I used to drive by here going to Bardstown quite a bit in the past year, and you would be able to see there was you could see the skeleton growing outside of the warehouse. That was you could just see going down towards Bardstown. What are you all seeing right now with the growth in regards of like, are you able to still acquire more property around you? Or is it just kind of like hey, we've just got to make use of what we have right now. 16:29 We're making use of what we have but we're always looking with burn arm fours burner neighbor we're kind of you know, there's no way we're gonna get put warehouses over there but we're looking for joining property we can find any for possible growth in the future 16:45 with promise there's no flat ground here. There really 16:47 isn't a lot of waiting to get young. 16:49 I saw Yeah, I saw the you know, they're knocking out some limestone up there. Does that for another warehouse sir. 16:56 That's actually where the Fred B no craft distillery is gonna go. That call the new distillery is going to be going there we're getting some dirt work moving. But you know his point of Burnham actually they bought some land behind us here as well. So we're kind of surrounded on on two sides by Burnham which I mean you know all their conservation work so it's great for us as for our watershed to be able to have such great neighbors but it does from time to time kinda with no I mean there's just no land really available around us it's all kind of you know, bought up or housing has kind of come around a little bit as well. But luckily we do have a little bit of space at Boston where we can continue to put some new warehouses so all is good for now it beam we'll see how it goes in the future because you know, land is a very valuable commodity if we need to keep expanding warehouses. 17:43 I know it's harder one of the things to actually plan out if somebody was in the land or like Okay, now we're making pay top dollars, right? 17:49 real bad, right? Yeah. 17:51 Oh, yeah. That's running here. We want it Yeah. 17:54 Nobody cared about this stuff. for 20 years now they want the this land. 17:58 Well, it is funny even you know, we talk About the price of land around here and we're like, oh man, but the people in California, New York, they're like, what you pay? You pay? What? For? What? Yeah. 18:08 13,000 an acre. It sounds 18:11 crazy. Yeah, that sounds it sounds too cheap. They're like, yeah, they pay that in a mortgage for one month or something like that was some of the places some, so it kind of talks about about the Fred Urbino distillery, like what's what's the grand plans for it? You know, what's the what's the idea for it? 18:26 Yeah, I guess I'll kind of start on that one. It was an idea that I had had, I guess really, as as I was working on little book, and really getting into kind of product development. I noticed that you know, with blending, there's so many different aspects that you can go into, and drive different flavor through bringing these different streams together. And so as I was actually sharing the first batch of little book, coincidentally at my grandmother's bereavement, actually, our CEO would come down and we just chat and you know, after it was over, and he says anything on your mind. I said, you know, I'd really like to have a small distillery where we could do some experimentation, whether it be through mash bill through operating parameters, different barrel lengths, things like that on a smaller on a smaller scale. And so I let him taste a little book as kind of a teaser there to say, Hey, you know, this is kind of some of the things we could maybe come up with. And so that's kind of how it got going. And it's kind of evolved over time as it's been probably about a four year process of us getting kind of locked into what a where we want it down there at the bottom of the hill now. And then kind of what what it was going to serve its purpose and so we're going to be pulling into Booker's and bakers production. And kind of basically anything that is in our small batch or super premium category will be made in this distillery once we get it up and going, but it's also going to serve as kind of a playground as he said a couple of times for myself and some of our r&d team to really get in there. And, and for me, it's a lot about Learning about our current whisky even, you know, having the opportunity to get in there and put, you know, new probes and things like that, as you expand distilleries, a lot of times your your app or experimentation kind of goes to the wayside. And it's more about production needs, 20:15 and that and consistency, and I think that 20:17 you're exactly right quality and consistency. And so being able to kind of step back, almost kind of start at a smaller scale and be inefficient on purpose to where we can 20:28 actually screw up. Yes, right. And your work, you know, 20:32 you know, and that's kind of how I pitched it as we kind of got into some of the meetings was Hey, you know, I could make some of these adjustments in the distillery today, but when you all get a phone call and see the amount of gallons that I've, you know, made an adjustment just to see what would happen, whether it'd be a good or a bad thing you know, 20:48 know that all right, this 20:48 one thing quite turn out right? We have to scrap it. What 20:51 exactly so given us a good opportunity to be able to explore a lot further as as we try to look to expand the American whiskey agree 21:00 that was actually just kind of answered my next question because I was about to ask like, Why couldn't you just experiment with something else at this? And then you just said it's basically because of the larger production. So if you want to change a different ratio of the corn to the rye or anything like that, then you're not everything. Oh, yeah, you're kind of stuck with it for the next x to the X amount of years. Right? 21:19 You're exactly right. I think a lot of it comes down to having that smaller batch size to be able to do some of those things, whether it's tweaking the grain, or even, you know, we have a lot of unique vessels in our distillation system. We utilize some of them, we take some of them offline for some of our products. But as you say, it is today's time if I want to do a just that, you know, for Booker's, we bypass a retention tank. If I wanted to bypass the retention take in something else, essentially, I haven't been making Booker's it's an experiment. And we're pretty tight on still time. As you know, bourbon is just can't make enough of it. So really, those experiments can can be counterproductive, even if it do you do. Hit on Something good, you know, because you're missing regular production to do these things. Yeah. 22:03 So Fred, what do you think about that? Are you like, I think it's not broke, don't screw it up. 22:08 What are you doing? Either you have to my dad, he was always tinkering with stuff. Yeah, over to Boston plant over there, you know, in the book or no plant. You know, it was funny watching him, you know, Chicago folks would come down, they always visited Claremont. This is where the conference rooms were, this is where the bottling was. So over there and he always kind of called them in Siberia. I can do whatever I want to do. And the people from the house of knowledge as he used to call it, they didn't know what I was doing so he could he could tweak things and do things like Freddie's talking, and they never knew so he could make something and ease it right in and try different things. And nobody you know, ever knew but now everything is so allocated and steel time is so tight because you know, in the 70s they shut the Boston plan down so you know, they didn't really need the Liquid as much as we do today. Every hour is money big time. We need whatever we're making there. Now Freddie can play and do some stuff and that's when he took the ball and ran with it. There's a lot of people been trying to get this craft distillery for several years. But when he brought it up to Matt Shattuck, our former CEO, Matt jumped on it immediately. Then he goes back to as I called it, the house of knowledge and said, we would like to do this and all of a sudden, all this interest became Okay, we're gonna do it. You know, 23:32 Freddie, where did you get the interest for blended whiskies? What was that? What draw drew you to that? 23:38 It's kind of crazy. I've thought about it probably 1000 over 1000 times with like, when I like it came to me. I don't remember talking about it. Now I don't need I was gonna say I was gonna ask you to blend in but 23:52 we won't talk to one 23:58 whatever. You can find it the Time, right? 24:01 No, you know, I guess in reality just through learning in the distillery, you know, I don't recall if it was even before I came to the distillery, but I know as I had an internship, right as I was probably about a year and a half before I was finishing up College, where I went around to each department in the distillery or in the facility, not just the distillery, they're bottling and everything shipping. And it was kind of during that time that the the idea came to me because you know, I had had a beat in my head we use corn, rye and malted barley for Jim Beam. So from a very young kid, I knew those three grains were what made the liquid of Jim Beam. But so as I got into distilling and learning, I just kind of took me to if you took corn, whiskey rye whiskey and malt whiskey, individually and then blended them to those mash bill percentages. My thoughts were at four years old, what it tastes like Jim Beam or what it tastes like something not even close to bourbon, even though you're utilizing the same grains and so we're That's where it kind of started thing. And so at the end of that internship went back to school. I just remember thinking about that and thinking, I'm not gonna ask anybody this question. So I don't feel like a dumb man. Because I didn't know you know, I mean, I was like, is this a stupid question? The hell? I wouldn't know. Right? So I got a chance later to do an internship with our r&d team. And really, really, it was about me getting in there and learning their processes and how they affect our our day to day business. And they kind of pitched to me to come up with a couple of prototype liquids while I was there. One of them I don't really like to talk about, but it's kind of funny. Let's Let's hear it. Okay. I will go on and bring it out. The best part about it listen to these things are things that just no lighter. Yeah, right. So I tell it from time to time, but not too much. But so they said we want you to before you go back to the plant, I want you to kind of act as an r&d product developer, and pitch to us two different prototype liquids. And they gave me a couple of rules. One of them could be a bourbon or a whiskey. And the other one could not be. So I couldn't just do to you know, I couldn't just go get a six year old and a nine year old and say, Oh, this is two new whiskies that aren't out on the market. And then one of them because I had been working with flavoring, you know, we at Pinnacle vodka was very popular at that time. So we were working on a lot of different flavors in that aspect. So a lot of my time was working with them as well learning what they do. So they had pitched it as one of them could be a bourbon, one of them couldn't. And one of them needed to have some type of flavoring to it. So I went to work on which also makes sense because even like the apple and everything like that they're very popular absolute drinks out there for a lot of the consumers. Absolutely. So I, you know, me being me, I guess I wanted to knock out both of those rules on one so I could focus on the other and do exactly what I wanted. 26:50 Fred is this is this, just another shortcut that he's just taken? Is that what this is I get to go 26:58 back a long road versus Short road he's gonna take it which is that's good. It was much like his grandfather. I see a lot of booger in Freddy. It's a It's amazing. So you know, as a kid I liked Hawaiian Punch juicy red juice. Oh, I think everybody loved 27:12 it. Yeah. 27:14 But so i thought you know, we go to the beach every year for vacation, I thought if I could develop a liquid that I could just sip on the rocks or even if you just put it in a cooler and chilled it and just drink it neat. You know, I like fruity cocktails on the beach from time to time. It's nice and nice and warm out. So I thought I'm going to create this. I called it rum punch and it was going to be juicy red juice flavored 27:37 romaine. I thought you're gonna say push up. 27:40 Close, but not quite. It's a Howard's down drink. Yeah. So I went to work on that. And dad was there. This is where it was interesting. So as I'm getting ready, do my presentation. They're like, Oh, we invited your dad and I think even the plant manager to come see your presentation because I was presenting the sounds like great. Not only did I work on Something with flavors and kind of rum. They invited my dad to taste the same thing. But so that one that one wasn't very good. It didn't taste anything like Hawaiian Punch juicy red juice. And I wouldn't I don't know that anybody's even sipped I've still got the sample bottle at home. I don't know if anybody's even tried it since I 28:19 since I made it. What did it turn out to be like? What did it actually taste like? 28:22 It didn't taste it kind of tastes like fruit punch a little bit. Just a boozy fruit. It was kind of a boozy fruit punch 28:32 wasn't before your time like now the ready to drink category is booming right now so maybe it's just a few years too early 28:38 to revisit exactly one of our marketing guys gives me some some shit I guess he'll say you know because he talks about a little bit he's like your next products going to be that that room punch I promise you we're gonna make sure that's the next probably you and i t shirt. Don't give him any more. I got plenty on his own. But so that's kind of I thought, you know, got that one out of the way. I will Walking around up there to the lab and I seen some samples of four year old corn whiskey. Obviously we had four year old rye whiskey. And that's kind of where that thought really sparked in my head was I'm gonna try this blend that I have been thinking about, that hadn't really talked to anybody about. And so that's kind of how it started. I created what I call it was Jim being blended. And it was a four year old corn whiskey blended with a four year old rye whiskey and a four year old malt whiskey blended back to the percentage, the Jim Beam Asheville. It wasn't very good either. It was very corn forward, you know, it's organic, right? In theory that Yeah, early and today I was excited. And, you know, to be dabbling in blending. I already had a good idea, you know, with the mash bill percentages, that I was going to do the certain percentages. So it was a little bit simpler than that. And then some of my blending has become as I've worked on little book, but it really opened my eyes because that one wasn't that great. But I tweaked it a little bit as I was in the lecture. Just to see if there was any differences as you change and that's really what sparked my interest in blending was getting in there and, and traveling something that I had kind of had in my head and was really honestly a little worried to share it because I thought it might be a stupid question, you know, but I kind of come to learn that there's there's not a lot of stupid questions sometimes. The most simple question can lead you to some great things. What's her 30:21 what's kinda like the hardest part about blending that you've really found out? Like, is it just trying something you're like, it's gonna work I'll get a bunch of wasted product like what's what's the hardest part you figured out about blending so far? 30:31 I guess the for me the hardest part is, or I guess the most challenging would be, you know, if you've got four liquids and you put them at 25% each, by doubling up on one or you know, doubling a little bit, not doubling but adding a little bit more say 10% more of another and dropping percentages. It's not as apples to apples as the flavor being closer to the original one stream. As those liquids kind of mingled together. They really take on different For an identity, and I think that's where I thought blending, you know, if if I like this at 20%, if I add 23%, and I'm looking to get a, say a longer finish, and I know the other two liquids I'm using or three liquids I'm using have a shorter finish. You know, sometimes you think by adding more of the one that is giving the attributes, you think it actually throws the whole blend out of balance, and has negative aspects of it. The one good thing is you get to taste a lot of samples. And when you're blending, as I say, with with straight whiskies or straight spirits that that are phenomenal on their own, it's, it's kind of hard to say that it's a bad blend, it's just maybe not the exact direction you want to go. So I get a taste a lot of good samples. But I think the challenging part is, when you have an idea or you're trying to hit on something, whether it be like I said, a longer finish or maybe a little more aroma on the nose. Getting to those places from where you are is a lot more challenging than just maybe adding a couple more drops of this or that and 31:58 go ahead I was gonna say After you come up with the kind of your blend and it's like nail, you're like this is awesome in the tube. But then like, does that always translate to a bigger batch you know, Are there times when they get bigger like this did not turn out like they always tell us every barrel is a little bit different 32:13 it is you know, and I think we do a really good job after I've gotten to a prototype in my my test tube there, we'll go out and get some more samples of different barrels from the same lots that I'll be utilizing for a little book or whatever we're working on, just to make sure that because when we're doing a small blend, you could go get one barrel of each liquid, and you could blend for months because you know, it's just one barrel. So a lot of liquids there and you're only blending in a lot of times, maybe 3753 or 750 ml sizes, so there's a lot of whiskey. So going back and then picking different barrels from that same area or same date that it was distilled, just to make sure it's hitting those profiles. So before I finalize, we make sure that the liquids are going to be variable Similar. And then of course, at the end, if when we're dumping for bottling knock on wood, it hasn't happened yet. But for the first three little books, each of them was was very similar and aligned with the profile that I was looking for. But we'll see how that continues to go because we do keep reserved barrels just think I never tried to use every single barrel because if you want to make a little tweak, and you've already dumped every barrel, you're kind of kind of pigeon holed there. So hopefully, like I said, knock on wood that our process continues to go as it does. But as you said it every barrel is a little bit different No matter if they're side by Saturday and totally different warehouses. So it's, it's that's kind of where the art comes into it a lot, for sure. And so Fred, part of this is, you know, what was your kind of like past blending experience? I mean, is it if you try to recreate something that Freddie's doing here, have you been focused on like, production operation and stuff like that, rather than sitting here and saying, like, okay, let's start blending a lot of different products to see if we can make something new. Well, we you know, we mingled a lot is funny. We don't blend we mingle when Freddie got into the blending has no that was always a curse word in bourbon. Yes. You know until a little book, you know, he really crawls the path that got people thinking about blending in bourbon because, you know, when you say blended in this state, you start thinking about great neutral spirits and colors and flavors, which that's not bourbon. But when we had the Suntory acquisition, I was tasked and it was actually after Freddie had done his first version of little book to work with Cindy the chief Blender from Suntory to bring east and west together. So we actually blended and created the product Legion, which it was essentially was doing the same thing dad did, we're finishing bourbon in secondary barrels and then taking those fluids and putting them together. So that's where we kind of dip my toes in, in the blending but we were tasked For the from the CEO of Suntory. And that's what they wanted us to do to bring the two cultures together. And it was a learning experience for me. First we had to learn to be able to understand each other are 35:15 very, very different. You have a translator between you too, 35:18 like no, we used to, I guess our eyes when we tasted, you can look at each other's eyes and tell he speaks much better English than I do Japanese. 35:29 So mostly it was Cindy trying to figure out what I was saying. And then sometimes when we get on conference calls, I didn't have a clue what it was okay, whatever you say Sanjay and he was sent samples, and we would get together whenever he was here in the States. or whenever I was in Japan, we would sit and just taste, taste, taste, taste, taste, and it was a it was a learning experience for me, but I kind of saw what Freddie did with his little book because the variant just a little bit more of this and a little bit less than that. It can change it dramatically. Also, the mingling in the tank, just because it tastes like this today, it doesn't mean it's gonna taste like that tomorrow because we did sign with Legion we would taste and then the next day we taste it was wait a minute didn't taste the same. So the mingling together after you blended the fluids, so we've got tanks that we built specially for this product down here and it's got a slow row agitation in it. So that mix it up and we don't just mix it, blend it and bottle it we make sure it sits in this tank in the tank never goes dry. Some of the techniques that Cinzia uses in Japan, which over here for four, we fill the tank with liquid, we ran it dry and then we came back and did it again. We never left heels as we called it in there and dumped it on top of them. 36:52 I mean is that the same thing as considering like the selection method, but usually people call it 36:57 in regards to that maybe a little bit but we don't let it go. Lately driving a little bit left and he's dumping on top, so it's as all new and we had to train our operators here at the plant because they weren't used to that kind of technique on production. So it was a learning curve for all of us here in Kentucky and I know it was a learning curve for Cinzia in Japan because he'd never played with Bourbons before, he was amazed the temperature here and the finishing, how quick bourbon will take on the flavor from say, red wine barrel, or Sherry cask. You know, he was thinking maybe two summers after one, we'd already picked up flavors that he was ready for. So kinda. It was like, a big learning curve just like Freddie's learning with he is, we learned a lot for this Legion. And so it's been it's been fun to watch and to get involved even late in my career to get to do a little blending and play with it. And it makes me appreciate more what Fred has been doing, because I understand it's not just dumping things together. A graduated cylinder and saying, well, I want to 20% of the 30% of that. In loans, your numbers add up to 100. And you're good, not. That's not how it works, you know, it's trial and error. And then what strength Do you bottle at? I mean, there's a lot of variables that you can change a lot by just a little bit of water maybe or your finishing times. It was a, it was a great, 38:24 great experience for me. I just realized, I've been saying it wrong the whole entire time. I always said legend, right. So Legion now now and I believe I'm starting to say, I don't 38:32 know if that's a 38:34 word or not. 38:36 It's coming from the Gospel of you right now. So that's what I'm gonna talk about the 38:40 gospel of Fred. 38:43 I sent you down some dark paths. 38:48 So gonna also talk about the time commitment that went into it, because I mean, you just said that there were times when either you know he was coming here. You're going to Japan your mailing and shipping samples back and forth. Like what was the I'm assuming it was a at least had been over a year or two ago. Somebody said, Hey, we're gonna go ahead and do this. But how long did it really take to actually start from concept to finalization? There are more craft distilleries popping up around the country now more than ever before. So how do you find the best stories and the best flavors? Well, rack house whiskey club is a whiskey of the Month Club, and they're on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer rack houses box shipped out every two months to 39 states across the US and rack houses April box there featuring a distillery that mixes Seattle craft, Texas heritage and Scottish know how rack house whiskey club is shipping out to whiskies from two bar spirits located near downtown Seattle, including their straight bourbon, go to a rack house whiskey club calm to check it out and try some for yourself. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

As we’ve seen with the impacts of COVID-19, it’s now become necessary for the spirits industry to adopt technology and delivery services to stay alive. Cory Rellas, the CEO of Drizly, was on the forefront of this years ago. This podcast dives into their business model and how they are helping stores build a digital infrastructure to sell their goods online and get it into the hands of consumers faster. We hit on all kinds of topics such as their competitors in the market, what shipping laws could mean for Drizly, and if there is an opportunity to extend this business model into cannabis. Show Partners: The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit. Barrell Craft Spirits works with distilleries from all over the world to source and blend the best ingredients into America’s most curious cask strength whiskies. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about the power of packaging. What is Drizly? How did you come up with this idea? What's the timeline? What was the state of the industry when you got started? What were the challenges? Why did you go through New York early on? What is your big selling point to retail locations? Any pricing restrictions to prevent gouging? Talk about pricing transparency. How are you using the data you are acquiring? Are you sharing the data? Do you have a CRM? How are the products delivered to the consumer? How are you dealing with competition? Are you all interested in getting bought out? What's the end game? What happens if shipping laws change? What is your best selling bourbon? What are the top 5 selling spirit categories? What's your favorite bourbon? How do you work with brands? What needs to change to get more people buy alcohol online? Are you lobbying at all? Is there an opportunity with cannabis? What would the perfect alcohol market look like? What's the latest trend? 0:00 To be the best, you have to learn from the best. Louisville and the surrounding regions are home to many of the most storied companies and innovative startups in the distilled spirits industry. And there's no better place to learn the business of the distilled spirits industry than from a university located in its epicenter. The University of Louisville has partnered with industry experts to offer the distilled spirits business certificate, a six course program designed to accelerate your success in this booming industry. Oh, it's all online. get signed up to make your next career move at U of l.me slash bourbon pursuit. 0:36 I'd go with vodka. I'd actually go with bourbon, rum, tequila, although I think our tequila selection has been incredibly high end and what we're actually selling which is kind of interesting. And then I'll check for you here in a second on a fifth. I don't think I know the fifth off the top of my head. 0:54 You said it wrong. It goes bourbon bourbon, bourbon, bourbon bourbon 0:58 right brown, brown, brown brown. At 1:01 least that's what we want to hear. 1:03 I heard there the his mic cut out there when he said another word I don't. 1:21 What's going on everybody? It's Episode 248 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your hosts Kenny. We just got just a little bit of news to run through. And as you can guess most of it relates to COVID-19. Pennsylvania State run liquor stores are reopening, but only with online and shipped to home orders. Until further notice. Customers can purchase up to six bottles per transaction from a reduced catalog from thousand top selling wines and spirits from the website. All orders must be shipped to home or non store addresses, and only one order per address will be fulfilled per day. This is possibly in reaction to the losses now being seen by the government in an article Hosted by Trib live.com. For the two weeks of not operating, the Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board has lost an estimated $91 million in revenue, or around six and a half million dollars per day. quite staggering numbers. And the Virginia ABC has announced that for a limited period of time Virginia distilleries are authorized to ship their spirits to consumers and licensees in Virginia. Now, there's some legal mumbo jumbo about addendums to these distillery store agreements, but it's another big win for consumers and for these distilleries to help everyone get through this period, you can get more information on shipping, including a full list of all 45 Virginia distilleries on the Virginia ABC website. figures released by data analysts IWA ASR have found that for the week ending in March 22 of 2020, that total beverage alcohol sales grew by 40% in value and 33% volume compared to the same period in 2019. And this is to account for the stockpiling that we've seen during COVID-19 Spirits available in one liter one and a half and 1.75 formats have outpaced smaller variants, and the Ws are noted that the larger size formats and value brands tend to benefit from panic buying, as people look to stock their home with as much as possible in the light of a lockdown. According to IWC, or whiskey brands like wild turkey Crown Royal jack daniels bullet and Maker's Mark have been the ones that have seen this most increased purchasing. Alright, now on to something not about the Coronavirus Buffalo Trace distillery continues its exploration into oak tree varietals with the release of its old charter oak Tinker PIN code. This species of oak is native to the Midwest United States. These large Chica Pin Oak trees are often found in parks and larger States after the Chica pin barrels were filled with Buffalo Trace mash number one they were then aged for nine years before being bottled at 93 proof of a suggested retail price is going to be a $70 MSRP and like all other releases in this series, supplies will be limited. And the chicken folk bourbon will be available in limited quantities starting in April. Now today's episode is one that I'm personally really excited about. I'm like a broken record on here preaching how the spirits industry needs a digital revolution. As we've seen with the impacts of COVID-19, it's now become a necessity for this industry to even stay alive. And Cory rellis, the CEO of drizzly, he was on the forefront of this years ago. And this podcast dives into how he even thought of the idea into their business model and how they're how they're actually helping stores build a digital infrastructure to sell their goods online, and get it into the hands of consumers faster. We hit on all kinds of topics such as their competitors in the market, what shipping laws could actually mean for drizzly. And is there an opportunity to even extend this business model into cannabis. Now if you haven't noticed yet, we are doing lots of impromptu live streams that help give you some more entertainment during this time. We've done virtual happy hours with our patrons Our community, late night blind tastings and more. So make sure that you're subscribed to our YouTube channel to get the notifications and also, consider joining Patreon. We're doing zoom meetings to help connect our community. And we'd love to have you there. Check it out. patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit. Also, don't forget to catch Fred MiniK on his live streams every single day at one o'clock and nine o'clock pm eastern time. They've been highly entertaining and educational. enjoy today's episode. Stay safe. Stay inside. Here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich with above the char. 5:36 Hey everyone, Joe here again. We work with distilleries from all over the world to source and blend the best ingredients into America's most curious cask strength whiskies. lift your spirits with barrel bourbon. 5:50 I'm Fred minich. And this is above the char this past week. I'm just telling you, my brain has been suffering. I've been working so hard on I've been doing two live streams a day on YouTube. I've been writing a lot for Forbes, I've been blogging as much as I possibly can. And I hit a wall I hit a wall where I had no ideas left me none in the tank. And I want to thank every single one of you who responded to my query on Twitter, where I simply asked Can you please give me some ideas for above the char? I got so many great ones. I'm going to start with this one from the whiskey stop. It's at the whiskey stop on Twitter. And he wants me to talk about the power of packaging. A unique shape of the bottle. Does it have a twist top a synthetic cork, maybe natural cork a great or unusual label? Did it influence your purchase was a good did it suck? Did the packaging work? its magic on you. What a brilliant question and what a time Hundred like truth is that packaging matters. Oh my God does packaging matter. And let me tell you if you overthink packaging, you will fail and that is where you fail. Most of all when it comes to packaging, what I have noticed is is that many people try to target women and they do it with like a like a fluffy pink or they've got some kind of like special dressing on there and they have like rainbow colors, and women rejected every single time. Another one is when someone tries to be overly fancy, they get like a crystal, a major crystal top, a really fancy label, and then they fill it with like two year old MGP whiskey 7:49 adds a big fail. 7:51 So the packaging always has to match what's inside the bottle and the packaging cannot overstate Something so the overselling is the case of a brand that went too far with trying to attract women. And the whiskey not matching would be the decanter or the bottle that had shit whiskey in it. And the bottle was just stunning. And I've always believed that to me, you can measure a bottle by what is fascinating it or the closure. I am such a fan of natural cork you can read my cover story and bourbon plus magazine to get an idea of like, what goes into making court but I am really connected to the earth and I love I love the sustainability aspect of cork. And when I hear that pop when I pull the bottle next to my ears and I go that is an undeniable sound that makes my mouth water and makes me want a sip. A screw top doesn't do that. Lot of the synthetic corks are like stuck in there like they don't make that same sound. And the glass tops that are starting to become more popular. I could never get those things off. I have to pry them off with the damn, you know, butter knife. To me it all starts with with a good cork on the top. Now people can argue all day long of the merits of cork, but I'm just here to tell you I know what I like. And I like hearing this sound every time I open a bottle. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, listen, I'm bound to continue to run out of ideas with this Coronavirus stuff going on. Because I'm not stopping. I am driving content every single day. So hit me up on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook or YouTube and give me some ideas for above the char I'll select my favorite and read it in the next episode. Next week, cheers. 10:05 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit, the official podcast of bourbon, Kenny Ryan and Fred in our virtual hangout space. And today we are talking about a topic that we know far or should say, we know all too well, you know, when we talked about this on the roundtables, we talked about it, you know, with distributors, we talked about what is the future consumption and delivery of alcohol really going to look like for the the mass market and we look at, you know, coming from a tech industry myself, we try to figure out, like, how can we get, you know, our product into the hands of consumers faster than anyone else. And what we're gonna be talking about today is really talking to a company that's on the forefront of all this. And when we look at this, it's not only just being able to get in the hands of consumers, but you can get it in less than an hour sometimes. So I think it's gonna be a really cool conversation of how we really dive into this. So Fred, and Ryan I mean, you know, we've we've talked about shipping before, but have you all have y'all ever had a service delivered bottles to you yet? 11:08 No, not yet. But I'm super excited to learn about it. I'm fortunate I live like a half mile from a liquor store so we can get it pretty easy. But yeah, I mean, the liquor industry moves at a snail's pace. So you know, there's a lot of friction points and getting bottles delivered to your house and I've had plenty of bottles delivered to my house just not legally. But I would like to make it legal so yeah, I'm really excited to talk to them about this today. 11:36 Yeah, I've had I've had quite a bit sent to me I also you know, being being a personality on the spirits network, they regularly send me stuff and they you know, that's part of their, their whole thing is that you join and you get to be become a Club member, and they ship barrel pics and stuff to you. 11:56 And so let's go ahead introduce our guests today. So today, we Have Cory rellis Cory is the CEO of drizzly, you might have seen him or the app, you've seen probably their logo and a lot of liquor stores are the ones that deliver bottles from liquor stores to your doorstep. So Cory, welcome to the show. 12:15 Thanks for having me, guys. 12:16 So was that a decent elevator pitch? Or do you have a better one? That's usually us. 12:21 It's a common misconception. So I would actually like to give you my elevator pitch. 12:25 Please do please do. Yes. 12:27 Yeah. So So actually, drizzly was formed a lot with a lot of knowledge around the regulations that you guys have been discussing. I know we're going to talk about that further. So I'll put that in the back for a minute now, but the model is actually different than people think we don't do delivery. And really what drizzly prides itself on is digitizing the inventory of local liquor stores, so that a consumer can come online, shop across their stores and find a larger selection, comparison pricing and ultimately get that delivered to them. But the delivery is done by either the retailer themselves or Third parties, that door dashes Postmates shifts to the world. And so we're really a tech middleman empowering the three tiers, but not necessarily changing the status quo. 13:10 Cool. So it's kind of like a an Open Table kind of concept for liquor stores, maybe you're kind of looking at what's available and can then kind of pick and choose that way. 13:20 Yeah, that's not a bad comparison. And Ryan, you were saying you live next to a liquor store. And I think that's really drizzly, his opportunity is not necessarily to replace the liquor store, but to provide an experience you couldn't get by going to any one liquor store. And that goes again, back to selection, to transparency of pricing to the surface and multiple stores being able to get to you when and where you want it. 13:40 And so I kind of want to roll back the hands of time here and kind of learn more about you so kind of talk us through, you know, where did Where did spirits become or is this just like an idea you had and you said, like, Hey, this is fun. Like, this is a this is an opportunity that's, that's basically ripe for disruption. Like, what What got to the point of like you getting here and saying like, okay, cool, like this is gonna be a good venture to kind of go through. 14:07 Yeah, it's a it's a less sexy story than you might imagine. And it started with regulation. So going all the way back to my cousin Nick, Nick rellis, and then co founder, Justin Robinson. And it was born out of trying to figure out why alcohol was only 2% online, or even one and a half percent online. When you saw grocery, when you saw a restaurant, we saw electronics and clothing, all these other verticals are coming online at a rapid rate. And we started to think about why that is with alcohol. And regulation became the clear component of this whole piece. And so we started digging into the legal code. I mean, truthfully, looking not only at the repeal and the prohibition, but also state by state liquor codes and trying to understand how does this model need to work for alcohol? How can a tech platform both empower the industry but not be a part of the industry and still be an unlicensed entity within it? And then the third piece is, how do you carve your moat? How do you be more than deliberate because you know, when we start projecting the 10 years down the road, that's a commodity at the end of the day and so we need to be better than going to the liquor store and elevate the status or I'm sorry, elevate the physical liquor stores to do something that couldn't do in the physical world. 15:11 Alright, so I don't know if he really answered my question there because I really want to figure out more about you right like Matt 15:17 Boyd. All of those Kenny. 15:19 Bad we want to get to know a little about you, right? I mean, like, like, we're like so where'd you go to school? Like Where'd it Where'd this really kind of like, really spawn from? 15:27 sure my road was a little bit sideways. I grew up in Texas. And I would say that I'm a big bourbon fan for that reason grew up loving bourbon actually, but was a soccer player at Notre Dame spent five years there had a fifth year for soccer and wanted to play professionally after school. But a couple ACLs later, had to give up that dream and ultimately had done an internship after my first injury, kind of preparing just in case it didn't work out in the long run, and took a job out here in Boston at Bain Capital. They're credited affiliates, sanctity advisors. And that's when I started to get to know businesses a little bit better. I started to get to know regulated industries incredibly well, I was dealing with coal and steel and some pretty, pretty old industries at the end of the day. And then the three of us that I was mentioning, started just kicking around ideas. And so this was a big jump for me, I was in, you know, kind of the standard finance track at that point, thinking about what the next couple of years looked like, whether it be business school, or continuing doing what I was doing. And it felt like the right time to jump it felt like the right collection of folks to try something new with and a little bit of naivete got us to the final to the finish line and push us over the edge 16:40 to like your own little incubator, if you will. 16:43 We had a bunch of ideas. They were all terrible. So 16:47 we struck out on a few. This one became, I mean, really, the passion of the other two guys is what got me to believe and then the more we dug in, the more we really peel back the onion, the more we knew something was here, not just as a small thing. company but something that could really turn into something as a larger platform. 17:03 Give us a timeline behind this what was you know, when when did the light bulb light bulb go off? 17:10 Yeah, so 2012 the light bulb was starting to go off with the text of why can't you get alcohol delivered? And the response was you can you idiot. And so that started down the rabbit hole of when you get called out to some extent, what do you have to do? You have to take the next step and figure it out. And so that's when we started researching the liquor code. And it's funny how things work in Boston being a good microcosm of this project. One question you get and put in touch with the next guy who you can then ask the next question to and it starts to unfold unto itself. And it's not necessarily we saw some grand vision of what alcohol e commerce would look like and what drizzly has now become, but the next step was always apparent if you're willing to take the time. So 2012 was the idea. 2013 was the very first iteration and we've evolved since then. But bringing one liquor store online. Learning about consumers and what they're looking for what e commerce was. And then in the last three years, our models really accelerated. 18:07 So walk us through like the state of the industry, then when you guys are getting like what it were liquor stores doing as far as inventory or trying to do online sales, what was kind of the State of the Union when you guys got it started? 18:19 I wouldn't say it's too different now. We're moving it forward, but begrudgingly, I'd say for some of them. So what was fascinating about the current landscape delivery did happen, but it didn't happen in the paradigm in which we have now moved it towards which you could call liquor store. You didn't necessarily know it was on their shelves, but you could say, you know, I'm having 10 people over for a party, I'd like to place a $500 order split between a couple things, can you make some recommendations, so there wasn't transparency into what you could buy nor the price behind it. And you had to have big orders at the store is going to take the time, but delivery did happen to some extent. On the other side. Ecommerce within this space was just like not even on the radar for regulators or legislators. So you're talking about prohibition being repealed, that is still a lot of the framework and the intent behind the laws that are written. And so there was nothing to comment on e commerce at that point. And one of the first things we did I mean, this is the time of Uber, right? The cars are moving around you at the touch of a button, the world's changing because you have a phone in your pocket. And we're sitting here thinking, Okay, well, how does it need to look for alcohol? And unlike Uber, we couldn't just get into a city try to stoke up consumer demand, and then ask the regulations to be changed. That's just not the way this industry works. We had to go the other way. And so one of the first things we did was go to New York State, the Liquor Authority, they're the SLS. And we asked for a declaratory ruling relative to our model to basically say, not only we elite, not only are we legal, but we're three tier compliant, and we're doing things so aboveboard, that the SLA is willing to bless our model going forward and so that was actually the first moment where became not just a hobby, but very real and something that we thought we could then Take a run with. 20:01 So you you kind of said, All right, we need to sit down, look at the laws and figure out how we can sort of navigate these choppy waters. I would imagine when we've we've talked about all the time, anytime you try to put any kind of disruption into this marketplace that there is you're going to be hit hard with a lot of people that are lobbying against you. What were some of those like early conversations, you remember having people that are like this will never work like you're not going to get it to fly. 20:29 I have a hard time remembering ones that weren't like that, to be honest. So I can speak to the other side easier. Most of it was doubt that this is a very slow industry to change. And you have pretty significant entities that control pieces of the supply chain, and if they're not on board, you're not going to have success on a macro scale and other slices of it. That can work. You could do direct to consumer wine, you could do shipping, there's different pieces of it. But on a macro scale of trying to bring the physical footprint of alcohol online. We needed a few things to go right one was New York. And Funny enough, the the woman, Jackie flute, who blessed our model, as the general counsel for the New York State Liquor Authority is now on our team. And she was kind of the veteran in the space when she put her stamp of approval that meant a lot to the industry. The second one was the wholesalers, the wine and spirits, wholesalers of America and powerful group of people and in terms of their lobbying prowess in their space within the industry, and we got them on board as a three tier compliant model that can move forward the consumer experience in a way that they could get behind. So that was that was a big piece of it as well. 21:33 So you talked about being going above and beyond what the authorities there were, what were some of those things that kind of helps sell New Yorker where they were like gave you that that blessing? 21:44 Well, I think transparency is the first thing and not only transparency, communication, but transparency of the supply chain and what consumers purchasing what bottles from what retailer and if you can track all of that which obviously tech can do and can really enable that process. That is a leg up for many Anything that's happening in delivery today, connect. The second one was, we came with an offering for ID verification through delivery. That was again, not only transparent, but did it in such a way that they could have confidence that under age was not going to be a problem within this business model. And then I think the third part was just being very descriptive on how the flow of funds work. And then also what drizzly is and what just isn't, I think there's a line that needs to get drawn as to what is a retailer's job and competencies. And when you encroach on those too far, you start to erode the license that they have worked hard and in need to live up to, relative to what a software platform is doing on the other side. So it was more just a lot of learning and explaining who we are and how we do it. 22:45 So I know that the liquor laws are they're different everywhere. I mean, every state is different. You've got to navigate that everywhere you're trying to launch. And so when I think of New York, one of the things that I know of at least in New York, and who knows if at least There's plenty of stores that actually have websites in New York. And they can deliver within New York as well, like they can run through UPS, FedEx or whatever it is. So what was the idea of going through something like New York first, that might already have some sort of system set up like this versus something like Texas, right, which is a huge market, but has a lot more regulation versus something like DC, which is really like the Wild West? 23:26 Yeah, there's a few things to pick apart there. So we actually got off the ground in terms of our model in Boston. And then we went to New York to get the model blessed one because of their size and then to the regulatory credibility when they put their stamp on something. But what was unique about Massachusetts in one of those fortuitous things that happens. It is a an incredibly regulatory driven market for alcohol. So if you're compliant here, you've almost kind of fit the lowest common denominator for the rest of the states. And you can roll it out from there. So I think that was a big fortuitous bounce in our direction at the beginning. The second thing We learned from a consumer side of things, every state is so different, and how consumers buy alcohol. Because of the regulations in New York, as you're mentioning, you have a wine and spirits store and a beer store, you have a license cap so that you don't have chains. But you have a ton of independence, which is obviously very different than Texas or California, where you have a bevmo or some of these larger chains out there. So the consumer experience really needed to adapt on where you are, and who you're going to be working with on the retail side, the East Coast was set up pretty pretty darn effectively for us because we could work with independence, learn how to bring on a smaller shop make a real difference in their business. And then as we rolled out to larger cities and states, we were more ready. We were more ready to have conversations with some of the bigger retailers. 24:45 Yeah, I think that's one of the things that we should most most people that are in the retail market should really start looking at is how do you become a little bit more competitive in today's market and just being on the corner and relying on your neighbors to kind of keep you in business might not be able to thing that's gonna keep you floating for much longer. So when you go and you have these conversations, or at least in the very beginning, I'm sure you have a whole team that have these conversations now with liquor stores around the country, what's your what's your big selling point to them to say like, hey, like we can bring your inventory online? Do you integrate with like their existing POS? Or does it say like, Hey, you need to have a new POS system that that we we run and manage, like, how does all that work? 25:28 There's a lot to it. But you appeal to them first as a consumer, and you start to think about other industries and how they've come online. And where do you buy airline tickets? Where do you buy hotels? How do you buy or how do you shop? for clothes online aggregator model and starting to get them thinking about this is going to happen in the space. It's not a matter of if it's a matter of when and so you appeal to them on a consumer level to start. The next thing you're really dealing with is fear. You're dealing with fear of competition, you're dealing with fear of transparency of pricing, and that's how far back this industry goes. As you know, they still believe That people can't get their prices if they wanted to walk in, it gets a little irrational. But then you can speak to them around numbers now. And this is obviously changed over seven years. But you can talk to him about incremental consumers that they wouldn't have been able to serve otherwise. And we have data behind that. You can talk to him about how a marketplace actually elevates to the experience to the point where multiple stores are able to succeed at a level that if you were the only one doing delivery in this area, we wouldn't be able to get those consumers to not only come and check out the site, but also come back and shop from you in the future. And then the last thing is, is we need to be more than just the consumer marketplace. And so when you're talking about point of sale systems, we need to be to elevate and help them generate more profit from their in store business, that things there's things like the catalog and the accuracy of what's on their shelves and how they actually think about that there's data on consumer trends and what they want to put on their shelves at what price at what time. So there's a lot of things as a tech company that we have access to the can really elevate their entire business and it's a whole package that when you work with drizzly makes you a better retailer. 27:01 So you brought up up pricing. One thing that we've noticed a trend in liquor retailers is there's a lot of price gouging. Do you have any restrictions or anything like that with the retailers you work with that you set them within like a 27:18 close to the MSRP or anything like that? 27:21 And it's a good question. So in some states, the price in store is legally mandated to be the price online. And I could give it's a couple states, it's not the majority by any means. So that one takes care of itself. But our job is really to bring their in store experience online and the way they want to do it. Our approach to price gouging is not necessarily to give them mandates on what to price it or to keep it in certain things is to insert competition. It's to have a marketplace to keep them honest to the point where if you are going to try to price things 40 50% up because they're rare and Other people that have that same item, they're obviously not going to purchase yours. And so it really just gets back to an efficient marketplace idea and making sure that consumers are the arbiter of what's successful and not regulations or drizzly or someone else. 28:14 And so to kind of like tackle or shall I say, like, tack onto that one a little bit. When we think about pricing, we've actually had KL we've had a spirits on the show, because we kind of talked about like, what does it look like to be in an online first kind of market? Right? Like, like, that's gonna be the new consumer drive. That's the new demand. If If Amazon's next whatever's coming next, if it's drizzly next, whatever, it's going to be like that online marketplaces really where people are going to go for. And so the other thing about the pricing aspect is this is like when you put your prices online, you're creating this level transparency, because you know exactly like what somebody's charging for a 750 ml in early times versus what somebody else is charging. Does that ever like Upset any retailers? And they're like, Wait a second, like, how are they able to charge less than I can like, what's their? What's their distributor? charging them versus what they're charging me? Do you get caught any of those kind of situations? 29:12 There's definitely yes, I mean, transparency introduces more knowledge into the marketplace for sure. Are we introduced to that conversation? Not necessarily. But I'll tell you one of the biggest learnings from early days it drizzly from switching from a single store experience. I am shopping from the store across the street, who I've been brought online through drizzly to a marketplace where I'm shopping by brand first and then drizzle is telling you the best way to access that product, whether it be selection, you can only get it at one place, price delivery, all those different things. And so what's come out of that though, one store may price something as a margin builder. Another one actually may price price it as a loss leader, and the various strategies within those retailers really come to fruition when you break down those physical barriers and put all of those things on one page together, so it's not necessarily that, hey, I'm getting a worse deal from my distributor. But it starts to highlight what someone does in store online in a much, much more transparent way. And you compete a little differently online. And so it started to me an education of this is how I went in store helped me win online. And there's usually an avenue to do that. That's the bigger conversation more so than I'm getting gouged by my distributor. 30:24 Yeah, that was 30:25 actually going to be my question how, as a liquor store, do you compete online, it kind of reminds me of the car business, you know, like the car industry used to have to rely on a salesman and try to whittle them down and beat them down to get the you know, the most fair price but now everybody knows the price What can a store do to compete? You know, if if you guys are and what parameters are you kind of determining that makes a store better or worse for someone? 30:50 Sure. And it's one of those things when you when you come on a jersey you're going to see a bunch of information and that's really where where I think we can win in the long run. Is asymmetric access to information and that includes price. That includes delivery times, that includes your selection, whether it be longtail wines, or high end and rare Bourbons. And so highlighting that is a big piece of it. And then you start to think about other people that are starting to focus in this industry. I mean, grocery, for example, is starting to come online for alcohol in a bigger way, total wine is being very aggressive. They are feeling independence or feeling that distinctly in the cities that we're seeing that, but there are advantages to being an independent liquor store location, for example, you have access to consumers within 2030 or 40 minutes that a total one could never get to in that timeframe. Not necessarily selling private label. Private Label online is a little bit more difficult. And so what of your selection, do you want to highlight? What are your higher margin products? And how do we highlight those to the consumers you're willing to speak to, and then also providing them tools. Again, going back to this data conversation, there's not a whole lot informing what they put on their shelves except for that stuff. salesmen walking in drizzly can bring transparency to that as well. What are consumers in this area buying? What are the trends? How should you think about pricing it? And how do you build that into an overall larger strategy to have a successful business and in a rapidly changing environment, which we're seeing, depending on which city different rates, but it's happening. 32:17 So you brought up data, you bring in a datum, and we are in the age of big data where we are dominated by it. Tell talk, walk us through, like how you use that data? Do you sell it to the to the suppliers? Do you feed it into like a market research hub? How are you using the data you're acquiring at point of sale? 32:40 Almost all of the data we acquire, we are using to inform our own offering. And so it's simply commerce things like how do we construct a better flow to increase conversion your likelihood to hit checkout? How do we start moving shelves around in what is effectively a digital liquor store to be more personalized to you So that the next time you come back in, we're more apt to show you the right product at the right time at the right price. That's really what we use the data for. Going back to retailers and brands, we can aggregate it and anonymize it and give them larger trends that could be cut down by geography, but never anything that's highlighting a particular store or a particular consumer more. So just highlighting a different slice of the market. And one of the interesting things about the alcohol industry is you have your Nielsen's and your IR eyes and some of the bigger data providers who have a interesting offering within the alcohol space. But they're big gaps, the independent liquor store market where you don't have receipt data, or you don't have consistency of point of sale systems. Those are not places so New York has an entire market. Those are not places that people have great insight to and drizzly through its 350 retailers that we partner with in New York City can start to really build transparency into a market that is otherwise been only aggregated into depletion data. So Other things. So there's an aggregated view for the external partners. For us internally, it's how do we create a better ecommerce experience? 34:06 Because that thread can be 34:07 actually, you know, it's fascinating. 34:09 There's a lot to take in, right. 34:11 I used to cover retail, I used to be the tech writer for the National Retail Federation's magazine stores, and I felt myself going back to the old days. Listen to you talk there. And follow up on that data is that, you know, we don't really a lot of the a lot of the numbers that are that are out there that are public. They kind of like you're saying, like the Nielsen numbers. They're not really complete. So my question to you is like, why don't you guys release these numbers? Why don't you make them public? Since you probably do have the best database of sales numbers of anybody out there? 34:54 There are more craft distilleries popping up around the country now, more than ever before. So how do you find The best stories and the best flavors will rack house whiskey club is a whiskey of the Month Club and they're on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer rack houses box ship out every two months to 39 states across the US and rack houses April box, they're featuring a distillery that makes us Seattle craft, Texas heritage and Scottish know how rack house whiskey club is shipping out to whiskies from two bar spirits located near downtown Seattle, including their straight bourbon, go to rack house whiskey club calm to check it out and try some for yourself. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 35:42 My question to you is like, why don't you guys release these numbers? Why don't you make them public and you probably do have the best database of sales numbers of anybody out there. 35:53 You're hitting on a great thing. And we actually do believe in the democratization of our data just because we think it's going to make all of us Better, including the consumer experience. So we released something a long time ago called the data distillery. We are thinking about how to do this in a larger way, not only for trend data, but again, how do we create something that becomes a backbone for the industry so that we are sharing data? Not because I think some people think you by holding on to it, you're more valuable. Our view is by using it to make the industry more effective, the consumers will win, which is ultimately what we're all about. One, one quick anecdote. I mean, we see trends earlier, our average consumer is millennial, older millennial 30 to 34 years old, 5050, male, female, and these are folks who are trendsetters. These are social people. And so, Rosie a couple of years ago, I mean, seltzer took off about eight months online before it did on, you know, in the physical world. So it's just one of those things where we can really inform based on the trendsetters that purchase on our platform brands and how they should be thinking about the world and then a larger play as to what you're saying Fred around, using data to benefit the industry. 36:59 Fred, you Actually, you know, and you kind of cover my question, but I guess as a liquor store owner, do I have, you know, do I have the same access to that data? Is every single store within your system? Or is it store specific or regional specific? And like, from a CR is do you have a CRM base as well with drizzly for the retailer? 37:20 We do we do. So if you're a drizzly retailer, we have a tool that's actually just culturally retailer and that gives you access to all of your sales data, all of the customers that are purchasing from you. And then also an aggregated view on some of these consumer trends and thoughts around the inventory, you should be stocking. So that is absolutely part of being a partner with drizzly and a CRM side. We're obviously aggregating eyeballs on our site. We're aggregating consumers and want to speak to them in an intelligent way. A piece of what we're doing in 2020 is starting to take our technology and utilizing that to allow retailers to do this themselves. So you can imagine white labeled websites that Allow them to merchandise their own products more effectively and almost have control of their own website by utilizing drizzly assets. And you can start to see where that would go in terms of CRM capability, the ability to talk to their consumers in a more discreet way versus the aggregator marketplace that is drizzly. So there's a lot within that, but yes, I can see us more and more powering some of their ecommerce needs, not only to benefit us, but I think it's a necessity for the market to benefit consumers. 38:26 I also think it's a necessity to because of course it for me, it always comes back to tech. And, you know, you go and you look at some websites, and I mean, some of them are just they're just archaic, right? You know, a lot of liquor stores, these mom and pop shops that try to build a website, there's a flash banner on it, you know, whatever it is. And, you know, that's why, you know, at least not in this particular segment, but this is why a lot of people that are creating their own businesses, they look at things like Shopify because it makes their you know their system a lot easier. I mean, or is that like one of the big selling points that you have for just lead a lot of these retailers is like, let's Let's take you at least to the 2020. Now, 39:03 yeah, that's a great point. So it wasn't when we started, to be honest, we thought more about how to aggregate consumer demand in our marketplace. And so that's a little bit different. That's almost like the Amazon side of things of will collect the eyeballs, we'll build the technology. And we're going to utilize your physical shelf space. On the other side, the selling point there is just incremental consumers incremental profit, so that that works. On the other side, there's so much we can do to look like Shopify to be a platform, which is an entirely different business model, but one that we really think we can enable the hundred thousand independent retailers out there to serve customers, and I keep saying customers because despite everything else that goes on within our business, we talk a lot about internally, the reason for our existence, our purpose behind everything is to to be there for the moments that matter and the people who create them and yes, we sell alcohol and help people transact online. But we're there to actually provide a better consumer experience and allow them the time and the freedom and To find that right bottle at the right price, I mean, we all know how cool that can be. So, it all comes back to democratizing what we do to the benefit of the end consumer. 40:10 Well, first off, hats off for trying to make change, positive change in this world. That's always outdated. That's we know, it's we know, it's insanely difficult to actually do. But I think there's one aspect that you know, we kind of want to touch on as well because it is a it is a part of the drizzly system and no, it's not just you know, basically creating the catalog for for what the consumer sees, but there there is a component of actually how it is delivered to the end consumer. So kind of touched on a little bit about you know, you said the post mates the, that sort of model of like, how does it once once a transaction happens online, at what point is drizzly done with it, and it's either on the retailer, it's on whomever, to get that into the hands of the consumer. 40:57 So when someone hits check out What we have done is send that order through a gateway to the merchant of record, which is the retailer itself. So just one data point there. If you're shopping from ABC liquors, that is the merchant of record on your credit card drizzly is not within that flow of funds at any point. What we do do on the other side is build the technology so that if the retailer wants to do the delivery, they have the ability to do that it almost is like the Uber driver app to some extent for this space. And that's about 92% of our orders. So most of this is retailer delivery using our technology, and we are providing the customer support throughout the entire experience until the bottle has received at its location. The third parties are interesting just because delivery is such a inexpensive piece of this whole thing and they've added scale and efficiency in a way that you almost need multiple categories, multiple verticals to do and you can imagine a mom and pop getting frustrated on a seven 7pm Friday. Too many orders coming from drizzly too many people internally It would be nice to be able to have a courier of some sort. So that's what we built in. They're all tech based, we have full visibility into when it reaches the consumers hands inclusive of ID verification. So we're always a part of it. And at the same time, we're not the ones physically handing the bottle off. 42:16 So you're like a almost like a marketplace, right? As for getting those together? I mean, is I mean, is it really like you're popping out? And it's like saying, like, okay, like Uber Eats, post mates doordash, like, whoever is going to answer this, like, come and pick this thing up. 42:29 We don't put it out to bid per se but we do work with most of the partners you just said. But that was also an idea to be honest. And there's people who have created that, we found that having one option per store is a little bit better just because you get used to who they are and do things in a in a bit simpler way. 42:44 And so I guess a another question that I kind of want to actually go ahead and because it's I'm sure it's a the business side of this. So go ahead and answer it is 42:51 actually a business side. So you talked about how you kind of laid the framework for this whole really, for what is an is an new category that's kind of changing the space and now you got competition. You got all kinds of people coming on board, minibar and a few others. So how do you? How do you how do you deal with that? How do you, you you have to compete with him at individual retailers? Do you guys share retailers? How does that work with your competition? 43:21 Well, Fred, I mean, going back to 2013 when we Magneto got back in the stone age's. Exactly. I felt like I got some grit. Now, that was pretty good. In 2013, when we kind of announced the model, there were about 50 meters out there, minibar absolutely being one of them and have a lot of respect for what they've done. That phase isn't necessarily over at any time, but the big boys are now here. And so we're actually thinking about competition, not necessarily for just alcohol specific, but the logistics firms. I mean, Uber Eats has tried to do alcohol delivery. 10 different times instacart has prioritized alcohol and e commerce. Why Walmart and grocers are starting to think about how to do this in a bigger way, total wine. So you can imagine that there's, we almost need to find a way to succeed. And this is what we talked about a lot internally. In 567 years, every bottle on every shelf could be transacted online and sent to a consumer, whether it be delivery pickup or shipping. And in that world, how does your business model succeed? And that's really where it just has been built for. Not necessarily the me twos today that are, you know, predominantly just about delivery and convenience, within that 44:32 value proposition. At what point do you stop, you know, you're talking about some pretty big names and they're trying to get in the space? what point do you stop competing and just start? You can't beat them join them in that regard, is that the end goal? Seems like with most tech companies, they want to get absorbed or bought out, you know, at some point have an exit strategy. 44:51 Yeah, I mean, there's always there's always thoughts on the next strategy, but to be honest, we're being built for the long haul and alcohol is a bit a bit you I mean, there is a moat, from regulation that comes from embracing them, rather than trying to knock down these laws. Now, if tomorrow, the Three cheers went away, and it looked a lot more like selling electronics online, I might have a different tune as to about where we fit in the long run. But I do think we can stick out a place here for the long term. And a lot of that comes back to kind of this underpinning of how do you take regulation and code that into your technology? And then also, how do you take a mom and pop an entirely fragmented retail base, and then aggregate that in such a way using your catalog, your tech that we know where every bottle is in the country, its price and how to get it to a consumer, what you build on top of that within your product experience? Just kind of opens up the world to you and I just think that's something entirely differentiated and difficult to replicate. All that being said, not looking to sell by any means today, but it's obviously something you sit up a little straighter when Amazon gets into your space. 45:58 Yeah, I would imagine so. Yeah, I mean, I think I think Amazon might have been one of the big names that, you know, people are gonna recognize and you know, they're they're definitely trying to get into the space as well. And so, you know, another question that that kind of follows along with that is the when we start looking at, you know, Amazon, you start looking at instacart, and all these different kinds of companies that are trying to get into it. And if you kind of said something like, if the three tier system is goes down tomorrow, like what what would that really mean for you all? And if basically, this gets democratized to the point that it is just like, buying and you know, buying an electronic off Amazon like, What? What is that? Is that truly like gaming or a game over? I mean, are you really reliant on the three tier system to to make this happen? 46:47 At this point? No, but I think two things become obvious. Right now brands are about as far away that you can be from a consumer when you're a big CPG right. So they are unbelievable storytellers and brand builders from The awareness message side of things. But it's not like Procter and Gamble and Walmart, where you have co located offices and you're trying to figure out where to put things on shelves and incentive basis. And you know, you're buying shelf space and tap space and the rest. That doesn't happen well, at least not legally, at least today. And if that goes away, then the way brands work with retailers changes overnight. And drizzly has a value proposition there, but it does need to shift pretty significantly. The other side of the coin though, is we almost need to plan for the three tiers to go away because drizzly successful, when the product experience, the consumer experience is so good that they no longer need to go to the store. And that goes back to not just the selection and the availability and the transparency of price, but then packaging it in such a way that again, almost guided shopping or personalization to where you almost feel like you're missing out if you're not going to Jersey because you've learned so much about your product. There's a crazy stat we just learned that you know 40 45% of our consumers Unless you're using Drupal as a discovery tool, and not necessarily transacting on the platform, I think that's fascinating. I think that's something that we can really lean into to drive value for the consumers at the end of the day. And again, I think that's one of those unique things that regulation be damned, we can do better than anyone else. 48:16 And how does your game change if shipping laws are broken down? Now, let's say the three tier system still there, and it's great. However, now that you know, New York and shipped to California, Wisconsin, you can go to Florida, and liquor stores can now compete, you know, across state lines, like what is that? What does that do for your business? 48:37 I think it'd be a little bit of the Wild West to start, I think you're going to start to see the macro or the larger chains, assert price dominance because they can then start to think of their business on a national scale versus distributor, distributor and state by state. I think we could really take advantage of that world to be honest again, I keep beating on the same point but if we know what's in 40,000 stores We should be able to surface all of the items at the best price possible for you almost kind of this notion of tell us what you want, we'll figure out the best way for you to get it. And I think that's one in which we would really succeed. Shipping is not a huge piece of our business today. But that speaks to the use case, we're going after more so than the consumer demand inherent within shipping. So I think we could really take advantage of it. It would, it would require a little bit of adaptation and how we do things. 49:24 All right, I want to jump back into some data stuff. This is I think this is some fun. This will be fun for you. What is your best selling bourbon based on your data? 49:36 It's a little different than you might think. It's a brand that we've done a lot of work with, to try to figure out how it resonates with the millennial consumer but bullet bourbon was our largest brand in 2019. 49:48 Bigger than it's a 49:49 popular brand, 49:50 but it's you know, it's not it's not necessarily makers, or Jim are some of these other ones. So yeah, 49:55 still a top 10 bourbon from a sales perspective. Now what are The top five selling spirits so like from a categorical perspective 50:06 category spirits are the spirit themselves. 50:09 The so the know the category spirits so like tequila ROM bourbon like what what's your top five there? 50:16 I might get this wrong but we'll see here I'd go with vodka. I'd actually go with bourbon, rum, tequila, although I think our tequila selections been incredibly high end and what we're actually selling which is kind of interesting. And then I'll check for you here in a second on a fifth. I don't think I know the fifth off the top of my head. 50:37 You said it wrong. It's goes bourbon, bourbon, bourbon, bourbon, bourbon, 50:41 right. brown brown, brown brown. 50:44 At least that's what we want to hear. 50:45 Well, I didn't I heard there the his mic cut out there when he said another word I don't 50:53 bleep me out but it's funny I've I've sworn on this and I didn't hear any negative reaction. Now I say anything other than bourbon. And there we go. 51:00 Yeah you get around Fred that's that's the type of banter you're gonna get out of it and so you know as we kind of want to like ask a question because we really didn't ask it in the very top of this because you said you were a bourbon fan like what's what's what's kind of like your go to you got some favorites cuz I see behind you you got a Coors Light came behind there I figured figured we could I mean you're in the you're in the spirits business like let's let's get some bourbon on those shelves back there. 51:25 Oh don't worry we do have that this is just one of the rooms 51:29 well so I like to play nice because we work with a bunch of different brands in their businesses. I'm a big Booker's fan I love 100 proof Booker's over a glass device when I go home. I'd say that's more of a Friday night drink than anything else. But that's probably my go to if I'm if I'm opening something on the regular. 51:47 What do you mean by by working with brands? Like what is what does that mean to you? Well, 51:52 I think there's two things. The first would be on the data side. So these are folks who are looking to learn about consumer trends, figure out how their business brands are resonating with consumers. And it's less even about the online spend. It's taking those learnings and apply it to the offline. And again, massive media budgets and trying to make them even 1% more efficient by learning about the online consumer in depth. That's a big piece of it. The second piece is, shirtsleeves, the fastest growing company in the fastest growing channel for alcohol. So to that extent, they are trying to figure out how they're going to win online. Knowing that in five years 10 12% of all alcohol is going to be sold online. So drizzly can be almost a test and learn area for them. You can speak to consumers in a personalized way. You could sell advertising, we haven't done much of that to date. But all of these things are basically a lab for them to figure out how their brands can come online, and either keep or grow their market share versus the physical world. 52:49 So what was that you say? 10 to 12% is what it's going to be in the future. 52:53 Yeah, if you look at some of the larger data providers, they're projecting 13 $14 billion in 2023. Slightly less ambitious than that. But you're seeing this industry come online at 40 50% year over year, which is significant, we do think it's gonna be the fastest growing CPG over the next three to five years. 53:11 So what what do you all need to do to try to position yourselves to say like, we can grow this beyond 10 to 12%? Like how, how do we change the minds of the consumer to say, like, Oh, we can we can get this to 20 to 25%? Like, what do you think has to change in the culture to try and get people to start buying more online? 53:32 I think you're actually hitting at it pretty good there, which is awareness. Not many people know that you're allowed to buy alcohol online. And even if you do, there hasn't been a way to do so that should take away from going to the local liquor store. I mean, that's, that's a behavior that's worked for decades and decades. And so to break that behavior, you need to build something that is not one or two times more effective than going to the store but 10 X and really, that's where the product offering needs. to elevate the purchasing to where I don't need to leave my home, or if I did, I need to at least see what's online to really inform my experience in a way that I could never get on store. So it's a combination of awareness, and then a product offering that is just so superior going to the store, that they're going to order it online. Again, utilizing that store, though, 54:18 for sure. And I don't know, I mean, I guess there is there is also something about, you know, being a consumer going to the store, looking at it holding in your hand. And maybe, maybe that'll just become a thing of the past. Like, what do you what do you try to do to try to like counteract, like, some arguments like that? I mean, but then again, there's also like, Alright, well, you know, people used to love to have the feel of holding a newspaper in their hand, but nobody really does that a lot anymore, either. Can I still read the newspaper? I gotta be honest, physical core. You're killing me, man. Like you're young. You're young and hip, man. You shouldn't be reading a newspaper. 54:54 no and no one I know we call me hip, but that's all right. I wrote for newspapers for a long time. DDS. to bash on them, I mean, for God's sake, 55:03 there isn't. There's a key word in there that was it was wrong. 55:08 Yeah, but to your to your larger point, I don't want to necessarily be in a world where you can't feel a physical bottle where you can't go look at it, I want to lean into that. And so while the physical store might need to change, I hope it still exists. And I do think it should exist, but in a little bit different format. Instead of trying to have 5000 or 10,000 items on your shelves, and trying to have that inventory in that working capital and play that game. I'd love to see a world where you can almost have a retailer that has an e commerce DNA from day one. And then they have the experiential side of going in being able to taste products being an elevated experience knowing that on the back end, you can get any of those products delivered to you shipped to you or walk away with them from a warehouse around the corner. So they almost become showrooms informed by the DNA of e commerce versus having to compete in the current way of doing things today. 56:00 So So drizzly has been very active on the, you know, on the on the trade front. Where what do you do from a legislative perspective? Dr. You do you guys have a lobby firm that you're spending time in DC Do you do lobby in every state that you're in? Talk us through that particular process from the government perspective. 56:23 It's a core competency of ours. It's really what we were built on. So we have an internal team composed of General Counsel who has industry affairs experience, and then also the woman I mentioned Jackie fluke, who was on the New York State Liquor Authority, and they're really quarterbacking state by state, both almost legal protection side of things, and then an advocacy side for what we believe to be the best way to bring this industry online. We have lobbyists in every state that there is legislation moving we're in those rooms and our real thesis here is the engagement is important because I mean, we spend all day thinking about content tumors and the intersection of their needs and desires with a controlled and regulated substance. We want to be a part of that. And we think we can actually help doing so. So that actually speaks to something else we're doing, which is taking our platform into the cannabis world in the near future as well. 57:16 Oh, that's I think you hit on a pretty good topic there because we've we've actually covered on the podcast before what's the effect of cannabis and the, the, you know, this the distilled spirits market? What do you kind of see is the cannabis market kind of being an opportunity? 57:30 Well, I think it's a massive opportunity. And we started, you know, talking about market size. Alcohol is 130 billion dollars sold off premise each year 2% online. So you can do that math. We think cannabis is going to be a 30, maybe $35 billion legal market within five to seven years. But you're talking 40%, maybe even 50% online. It's a different consumer behavior, and there's no ingrained I know how to go to a store and there's no kind of behavior you need to break off, there's actually a stigma from going to a store. So all of that coming together, we think is a great opportunity. We do think it needs to be informed by alcohol legislation and the know how behind bringing alcohol online, it's just it needs to be treated with respect as a category. And that's one of the things we think we can really bring to that conversation. 58:22 Okay, so I have a request for your cannabis stuff, your delivery, you need to have guys on with backpacks on bicycles. Doing the deliveries through through town. 58:35 You mean like the movie half 58:36 but yeah, exactly. 58:40 Yeah, that's not gonna. 58:43 That wouldn't make it right. A legal team. 58:45 Yeah, no, you definitely wouldn't. But you could absolutely work beside me because I come up with these ideas all day long and get shot down. So it's good. I mean, it 58:54 is another thing that you know, even with the cannabis market, I mean, if you're, if you're always engrained in these legal discussions. Do you find it like fascinating that the legalization of cannabis and the l

Week two of self-isolation. So Fred's read a lot of comics, and continue our March Mattness Tourny. You can support this show by visiting our merch store, or by leaving us an Apple Podcasts review.

On this episode, we discuss two topics that are top of mind. First, is the Coronavirus and how it's impacting the bourbon industry. Then we take a look at the hype and hysteria that surrounds Blanton's. We dive into the recent news of Blanton's Gold making its way to the US and if we think $120 SRP is a deal you should jump on. You will hear a new voice for a few minutes and that is Aaron Goldfarb. You may have seen his work on various publications around the web. He wasn’t able to stay on due to some technical difficulties, but we hope to have him on again soon. Show Partners: The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit. Barrell Craft Spirits has a national single barrel program. Ask your local retailer or bourbon club about selecting your own private barrel. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: Barrel Shortage: https://www.thedailybeast.com/is-there-a-bourbon-barrel-shortage-on-the-horizon This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about taxes. What are distilleries doing for coronavirus? History of Blanton's. How did Blanton's become so popular? Will limiting the purchases of allocated items work? Why don't distilleries use technology to manage this problem? Blanton's Gold coming to the US. Is it because of tariffs? Are they taking away from the European allocation? How can you make more product with only one warehouse? Will quality suffer with increased production? What other companies have a similar strategy to Blanton's? What do you think of the price point? Will Straight from the Barrel ever come to the U.S.? Thanks to Blake from bourbonr.com, Jordan from BreakingBourbon.com , Brian from sippncorn.com, and Aaron Goldfarb for joining. 0:00 Have you ever thought about a career in the whiskey industry? I'm not talking about being the next master distiller. But if you want a leg up on the competition, you need to take a look at the distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville. This six course program will prepare you for the business side of the spirits industry like finance, marketing and operations. This is 100% online, meaning that you can access the classes at anytime, anywhere. So what are you waiting for? all that's required is a bachelor's degree, go to U of l.me. Slash bourbon pursuit. 0:35 So if you think back in the 1980s it was a bleak period for bourbon. 0:39 Thanks, thanks, Ryan. 0:43 Is poppin bottles they don't their shit what's going on around here? I'm listening really. I thought it was a good timing. 1:01 This is Episode 245 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your hosts Kenny. We've got a lot of news to cover. So let's hit it. Cova 19 are the corona virus is hitting everyone extremely hard. Now, I'm not sure why people are stocking up on toilet paper like they don't plan on leaving the bathroom anytime soon. But I'm sure most of us have enough bourbon to get us through this time. At this point, every major distillery has shut down tours. So if you had plans to visit the bourbon trail, please make sure you do your research before coming to see what is and what is not open. likely it's going to be nothing because even at this time, all bars and restaurants in the city of Louisville are admitted to shut down in person patrons. And in more coronavirus news. We've talked about this before about one of the benefits of having a state run liquor is that the product is always sold at SRP. Well, who could have predicted this but Pennsylvania one of those states where all spirits are government sanctioned and controlled have closed 2:00 All liquor stores in the state in definitely on Tuesday this past week. This also includes all online orders. So that means the entire state of Pennsylvania has literally zero access to bourbon. I guess after all this time we call them bourbon bunkers for a reason. 2:17 In a shocking vote, a bill is passed by the House licensing and occupations committee that allows Kentucky residents to get alcohol shipped to their door, but get this directly from the producer and wait for it without going through a distributor or retailer. This is a huge modernization and reform that could lead to a larger domino effect across the nation. Now this bill would require alcohol shipments meet very clearly labeled and an ID check and signature upon delivery. The producer would still have to pay the excise tax on all inbound shipments coming to Kentucky. However, retailers testified in front of the committee to express concerns about how the bill would negatively impact their businesses because people would be able to 3:00 for alcohol from their homes, and have it shipped to their door instead of going to the local retailer. In my head, I'm thinking, Well, yeah, that's kind of the whole point, right? However, that didn't matter. And now this amended House Bill 415 is going to the full house. We're going to keep you updated as this progresses. Is there a barrel shortage on the horizon? Well, Lou Bryson over the Daily Beast wrote an article where he interviews everyone from Cooper's to loggers and Miller's themselves. The loggers fear a shortage of white oak while the Cooper's really don't. Wood scientists see wetter conditions now than they have in previous years. And the increased deer populations actually eating acorns, which means less trees, and at this time, there's no plan to actually manage oak populations so it could lead to more maple and pure white oaks. However, independent Steve company says that they are coming off to rainy years where prices for logs were high, but now they see plenty of oak across 20 different states. Brown Forman cooperage says that they see more white oak now. 4:00 They have in the past 40 years, and the industry is doing better sustainability by harvesting oak at the right time to allow newer growth to form loosens up the pose talking about the coop urges only using about 2% of the hardwood industry. But he reflected upon his time spent with the logger. And he said that there is a lot of oak out there, but it's actually impossible to mill it because there's no Mills around and it's hard to get it out of the forest as well. So bourbon is gonna continue to be produced, but we'll have to see what the future entails. For the barrels themselves. You can read this story over the daily beast with the link in our show notes. Can bourbon be made in US territories like Puerto Rico and Guam? Well, Josh Peters over at the whiskey jug took this question to the TTB regulations division to see if it actually still would be legally called bourbon. Sure enough, they confirmed it that bourbon whiskey can be produced in Puerto Rico and Guam with reference to 27 CFR five dot 11 where the USA is defined 5:00 As the United States, the several states and territories and the District of Columbia, and the term state includes a territory and the District of Columbia, and the term territory means the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico. So there you have it. 5:15 Booker's bourbon batch 2020 dash one also known as Granny's batch will be released at 63.2% ABV or 126.4 proof. It is named after the sixth generation master distiller Booker knows mom, Margaret beam note. Although she never worked in the bourbon business herself, she certainly played an important role in keeping the bourbon family tradition alive, carrying the legacy on from the fifth to the sixth generation. She was very close with her oldest son Booker, who was instrumental in getting him his first job at the distillery where he would eventually go to become the master distiller. This bourbon is be released at six years, four months and 21 days in age. It would be available sometime around this month for around $90 for real 6:00 is setting aside six barrels to be chosen for and exclusively sold to the four roses mellow moments members. mellow moments is a special club organized by four roses that allows members of the general public to be a part of special gatherings, tastings. And you can stay up to date on for roses news. Plus get some cool trinkets sent in the mail every once in a while. new members can apply at select times during the year when the window opens, and the window to join when that membership does open is only for a handful of minutes so you better at quick. You can see their website for more details at mellow moments club.com. Now some pursuit series news episodes 22 and 23 are now available on sale box comm so if you're looking to get some killer bourbon shipped to your door during this time, head on over there and get stocked up. Episode 23 I'm super excited about because it's our oldest release ever at 15 years old. 6:57 Now today's show, we talk about two things 7:00 Things that are top of mind. First, it's that Corona virus, we had to talk about it. But we decided to change topics up a little bit because you've been hearing all about it on the news. So we got to kind of break away from it. And what are the bourbon is out there that can be just as argumentative. It's got to be bland. So we take the whole entire episode and talk about it. We take a look at the hype and the hysteria that surrounds it. we dive into the recent news of Blanton's gold making its way to the US and it do we think of $120 SRP, there's a deal that you should be jumping on. You're also going to hear a new voice for a few minutes when we start this. And that's Aaron Goldfarb. Now, you may have seen his work on various publications around the web, but due to some technical difficulties, he wasn't able to stay on for the entire podcast, but we hope to have him on again once in the future. All right, it's show time. Here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich, with above the char, and remember, Go wash your hands. 7:58 Hey everyone, Joe here again. 8:00 I know I talk a lot about blending here. But we also have a national single barrel program, ask you a local retailer or bourbon club about selecting your own private barrel. Find out more at barrel bourbon calm. 8:12 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char, death and taxes. So those are the two things that we are guaranteed in life to have to do taxes. April 15 comes around and every year I'm like son of beep, beep beep, had a night not remember to put all this together. And every year from a business perspective, I tell myself, I'm going to do a better job of keeping my books. And I never do. I never do I just focus on what I do. And then toward the end of the year, I rush and do all my books and well, I'm a procrastinator, if you will when it comes to the accounting side of my world. I need to get better at it. I will. But you know what, at least I don't have to pay 60 to 80% 9:00 Have taxes on everything that I do. And that, my friends is what Kentucky distillers have to pay about 60% of every bottle of bourbon that you buy, if you tally up all of the 60% of that goes to taxes. What's interesting about this is that Kentucky bourbon gets taxed six to six different times off the still in the barrel in the case in the bottom, and then the consumers pay a sales tax and in Kentucky, they have to pay a wholesale tax as well. So you have all these different taxes that they have to pay, that leads to leads to basically more more and more money that has to go to the government just for them to produce whiskey. Now, here's what's messed really, really messed up is that the distillers don't mind paying the taxes necessarily. They actually look at it as like hey, you know what? 10:00 This is not necessarily a bad thing. All that money a lot of that money gets earmarked to go to roads and schools of Kentucky. So like in Anderson County, you drive through there, and you see the nice roads and schools. Those were basically built by wild turkey and for roses, which puts a lot of money into that government infrastructure. Also Kentucky bourbon, the taxes are specifically earmarked for education. I think a couple years ago, when when things started, you know riling up with the teachers here, it became public that bourbon pumped $30 million into the education system. So I've always said like, if you want to, if you want to improve the Kentucky education system, buy more Kentucky bourbon. In fact, when you buy Kentucky bourbon no matter where you are, you are actually helping the roads, the schools, the children, the teachers, you're helping our entire state. So thank you 11:00 Because we have pretty nice roads out in the rural areas because people buy a lot of bourbon. But here's another fun fact, it wasn't until 2011 that the distillers were even allowed to write off their, the fact that they were paying these taxes, they would have to wait too until they bottled it and put it in the market before they could write off the expense of the the out of alarm tax that they were facing. So American whiskey has all these weird, awkward tax laws, that every time I start complaining about having to do taxes or do my books, I kind of look at myself in the mirror and say, Well, at least I'm not a distiller. So remember that this year, as you're going to put your taxes together, however you do it. At least you're not having to do 60 to 80% on the taxes and you get to write everything off when it's time to write it off. And that's this week's above 12:00 The char Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram, until next week, cheers 12:11 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon Kinney and Fred here tonight people's champ isn't able to make it because of Corona virus things that are happening. So we'll go ahead and, you know, we'll send our best wishes to Ryan, he doesn't have a Corona virus. I don't want to make that make that clear. The way I said that probably sounded like really dire. No, he's actually trying to do some things for his for his job and set up daycare because we've got a lot of things happening where schools can be shut down for the next few weeks here in Kentucky. So he's got to make sure that he's taking care of his employees tonight. So we're gonna miss Ryan tonight, but we will go on without him. So before we kind of introduce everybody here, I kind of want to talk to Fred Are you are you Doomsday prepared? You guys got enough bourbon and toilet paper to get you through for the next month? Well, you know, 13:00 Like today was you know, I wasn't supposed to be on today because I'm supposed to be in San Francisco for the competition but last minute 13:08 you know we had a scare ourselves and my wife she's the on the committee for like getting the Louisville VA hospital prepared for the coronavirus. So we've been getting prepared I think for the last three months in fact, we we thought there's a tornado coming. Yeah, there might be a tornado coming. So we had a little tornado drill with a family. We all went down to the basement and I was really proud. We brought chips and toilet paper and you know, the baby had something to play with. So we got this. You Baby could play with toilet paper too. Well, he went he went down there and he went straight for the bourbon. I'm like, this is my kid. 13:48 It's in the DNA. Yeah. Alright, so let's go ahead. Let's go around the horn real quick. And but first before we hit some of our regulars, I want to introduce somebody that's new to the podcast and we have a special 14:00 And tonight so Aaron Goldfarb, who you will have probably seen from a lot of articles out there online. So Aaron, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me even though I don't know how to use a computer apparently so 14:14 it's okay. Well let it slide this time. We'll we'll do some tech support next time when you do calling a pinch hitter here. Absolutely. So just kind of give everybody a quick recap or kind of summary of like, who you are, where you write and everything like that. Yeah, I'm a, you know, accidentally fell into becoming a blues writer. I write a lot of whiskey articles, but I write cocktail articles, beer articles and food articles for places like Esquire punch, fine pair whiskey advocate, bourbon, plus my favorite place to write. 14:48 I've written a few books to hacking whiskey, most notably for your audience. Gather around cocktails was my most recent book and 14:57 just learned that my kid has been 15:00 next two weeks off school. So I think this is the end of my writing career for a while, at least. 15:05 We're all trying to set up some sort of daycares at home or, I don't know, maybe we should just like go out and like, buy the like 5000 piece puzzles off of Amazon and be like, here you go. This is your next two weeks. Exactly. 15:18 Alright, so, Blake, how you doing tonight? Doing well? Yeah, always good to be back. Just straight into my intro. I feel like we're kind of changing things up. So, you know, do I give the regular Hey, I'm Blake from bourbon or do I just talk about coronavirus or, I mean, you can talk about what's happened in your area. I mean, it's ya know, our craziness happening. No, it's well, I had the flu last week. So I feel like I was out and wasn't the corona virus was just the flu. So we're not we're not born. Yeah, yeah, I got tested. I got tested. I tested positive for the flu. So I decided, I guess I didn't test negative for Corona. But there's been no cases in Florida that I'm aware of. But no, it's just it's crazy. I mean, 16:00 The TPC, that's a huge thing in this area. And so they actually announced today that they're suspending all all fans from the tournament. And you know, this golf tournament will bring in over 100,000 people to come and watch it. So it was pretty disappointing. You know, I was supposed to be 16:21 I was supposed to be going out to a tournament with my son tomorrow. So that's a little disappointing. And it's spring break for us. And as you can see, my daughter's like in the background. So they're talking about extending spring break here as well. 16:39 But yeah, yeah, this should be interesting. I don't know. I'm, I'm one who, I just think you've got like a 1% chance of actually hitting and being devastated. So I'm like, I'll just be unprepared and 99% of the time, I'd be correct. So it's just that 1% gets me But no, so 17:00 lost interest for the longest episode we're about to get into. 17:04 You're right on point there. So So Jordan, what's happening? You're part of the world. Well, the Quran hasn't been declared so Western Eastern pa right. There's a bunch of cases nothing in Pittsburgh. So Pittsburgh's I wouldn't say naive, but like right around today was the first time a little bit of unease and unsettledness kind of kicked in. Right? And now that the NHL canceled the penguins, right, people are super upset. But I'm sure we'll be seeing cases pop up super soon. I don't really even know if they're testing or if they have test kits here in Pittsburgh yet so I'm sure there's cases that we don't know about. So I don't know. Thankfully, it's a state run liquor system. So there's tons of tons of bottles still on the shelves. I think people want to buy that one. But it's there slowly. And Brian in our part of the world Yeah, you're part of the world. Thanks for having me again, Brian with sipping corn Find me a bourbon justice calm. And I my only effect so far is tonight. Instead of doing this, I was going to be 18:00 Drinking an Evan Williams 23 year old old fish Gen 15 in the in the 101 12 year Evan Williams with a client and client had travel restrictions and wasn't supposed to go anywhere and so got my thing cancelled so now it's personal because it kept me from ever. But other than that, it's it's hasn't really affected me. I've got my daughter home from Dayton. They kick them out early. They won't be going back 18:28 to just I've got my bourbon Splott I'll be alright. And at one point for Aaron Aaron, I have to tell you this before I forget I tried to do from hacking whiskey the the bacon infused bourbon. It was probably the biggest flop that I have ever created in my life. I will need to talk offline. I need to know the secret because theoretically, everything about that I should just love and I ruined both urban and bacon doing. That's funny. I always tell people it sounds harder to do. 19:00 Fat washing that it is and it's almost impossible to screw up. But I guess 19:06 I've actually had a very similar experience, Brian, so I have a few minutes. You don't you want to slowly render the bacon made the mistake of like, crispy and I think just the brightness came through so that's what I yeah, yeah. Can't get black. Yeah, absolutely no Okay, good bacon pursuit come and say, 19:29 Hey, I'd go for I'd listen to that it sounds delicious peppercorn all over. So Fred, you've been kind of close to this, because I know at least with the corona stuff, you've been actually reaching out for distilleries kind of give us the latest on what's been happening with what the Steelers are doing for preparing for this? Well, I mean, you ask them personally, a lot of them will say it's all bullshit. And then when it comes to like a corporate message, they'll come out and say, 19:56 well, we're closing visitations starting 20:00 Monday so beam has closed visitations for you know Maker's Mark and the other properties. Starting on Monday, 20:11 brown Forman announced the closures of their Kentucky facilities for visitations on Sunday. And jack daniels on Monday. New rep has made similar announcements I have not heard yet back from heaven Hill. I've reached out to them a couple times. I've not heard back from them yet. Interestingly, places like the smaller distillers seem to be the ones that are kind of like, you know what, we're still doing tours like NB Rolen 20:40 in Western Kentucky was very proud to say that, you know what, we're still doing this. And, you know, so a lot of them have these kinds of plans in place, or for the visitor side, and they're all continuing production. I think production is like I think that's one of the 21:00 The hardest questions answers like what if one of the workers gets test test positive? what's what's the protocol? They're like? I mean, I really don't know what the manufacturing protocol is for when you have a pandemic and someone tests positive for something that gets out into the market. You know, do you have a recall? I mean, 21:19 I mean, those are the kinds of questions that they have to be taking. But at the same time, the Kentucky distillers association is meeting with the governor's office who has been meeting with the vice president. So I mean, we're like three degrees away from, you know, the highest office in the land here, when it comes to what can affect the Kentucky distilleries. So I'm not a I'm not an expert. And I'm not going to claim to be but from what I understand is that this is all basically through respiratory and oral is kind of how it gets transferred really easily. So unless people were like spitting in the mash tubs, I'm not too sure exactly. Even that it's probably because he's in a hallway. Yeah, and so I'm not too sure. Honestly, if even if 22:00 worker does, you know, come in and it actually is affected. I think the only thing that it might actually affect is just the production. Probably just send everybody home do shut down production for X amount of days, come back, do a deep clean, you know, go back, go back to work. Yeah, but there is this whole thing where you have to 22:19 the government's issue, like, where people had it, what would what they touched where they went, you know, I was, you know, I was somewhere and got it in and someone was there the day after me and I got an email about it. And, you know, that was kind of one of the personal scare for me, but, you know, I don't know, like, if somebody works in a factory, you know, does the government then require the that factory to issue a statement to its consumers, and I just don't know it. There's not really a precedent for any of this. 22:54 It's very, very scary. And I think it's more so right as much as they might want to keep many 23:00 fracturing right there just one part of the manufacturing puzzle. So if a farmer who distills the grains and drops them off, right not to sales, I'm sorry for the farmer harvests the grains and drops them off for the trucking company, he drops them off, or they can't drop them off because they have the colonel virus. Got any random ash, you're not doing much, right? Same with barrel, stuff like that. So I think it goes the whole or friends point, maybe you don't have to notify consumers, but then you got to notify your whole manufacturing chain, right. And maybe folks then don't want to drop off supplies because they're afraid that they're going to catch it for their employees. So I think it's just not as simple as you know, the virus doesn't survive much longer. You know, once it's out of somebody's system in the air wasn't just something for more than a few hours. So consumers should be safe, but it's more How does it impact everyone they interact with up and down the whole supply chain? Yeah, I think probably the biggest issue that's really is facing right now is the tourism aspect, which has been really it's been what the industry has been hanging his hat on, you know, with the with the rise of these like, the trade wars, you know, 24:00 This was the one thing that everyone said, Well, we still got like, domestic growth and we got tourism. And so you know, this is you take out the more than 2 million people coming here to visit Kentucky distilleries. I mean, my god there, there are talks in town about impacting the derby. I mean, I can't even imagine not having the derby. Brian, can you? I mean, I just can't I can't, I can't envision it. Now. I heard that today, too. They're talking about maybe postponing and it's, you know, they're still looking at it. No decisions made yet but that's, it's just crazy talk. I mean, let's face it, Churchill. I mean, there'll be like, I just bet from home. Oh, 24:44 yeah. Where's that from all right, no, fancy sign up for twin spires club and they'll give you you know, $50 free or whatever, and they'll be laughing all the way to the bank. 24:56 The other the other component of this, that 25:00 should be getting Blake excited, actually because a sale box is that this is going to be one of the moments where we see an enormous increase of shipments and people don't want to get out of their house. So they're not going to go to a liquor store. What are they gonna do? They're gonna buy, like, going to visit seal box calm or wherever. And 25:25 go Fred. Yeah. 25:29 It's 40 like 40 25:33 but uh, you know, that's that's what's going to happen. Is there going to get deliveries? I mean, we're all right. We're getting deliveries from, from Whole Foods and Kroger right now. So it's crazy. Yeah, I think there was somebody had actually talked about on our discord chat a little bit earlier through Patreon. And they were saying, Well, what happens if Corona gets spread into Amazon into these delivery services? And it was like, yeah, it's 26:00 It's a true concern. The other part of this is thank god they're heavily automated, right? There's robots that basically pack those boxes for everybody. But when someone sneezes on a robot, 26:11 what 26:14 are they ended to? Whatever this was all just a way for the robots to take control, actually run a virus. I'm with you on that. Now. I mean, everyone's talking about walking dead. But what if this is really Terminator about to happen? 26:29 They planted the seed. 26:32 conspiracies, Fred. What? 26:35 Surprise now pushing back in conspiracies speaking of vodka conspiracy, Jordan was today's email like a backhanded compliment to 26:44 Tito's yesterday What are we taught Hey, hold on. Let's let's set the stage here because I have no idea what 26:51 newsletter right for whiskey Wednesday, I went out and it was a PSA on how to make your own hand sanitizer. So he did give Tito's the nod and the fact that they are 27:00 aggressively letting consumers know whenever they tweet or interact with them on social media that no you cannot use Tito's for hand sanitizer because it's not 60% alcohol right so we did harm we do give them credit on that one right but I mean, let's be real if you're going to use hand sanitizer and you must use bourbon we prefer you drink it, but at least use 120 proof bourbon to do something right. But there's a comment in there too. Tito's about like, well, at least they're clearing some of the facts up and 27:27 crafted you know, made in Texas kinda 27:31 just made sure wasn't reading into it. But once again vodka fails. I mean, you look at it it's like everyone's like starting to champion it for something that it can make me be valuable for and again even do handsome. 27:46 That's that's a perfect way to end this. I don't really talk about coronavirus anymore, do you? Oh, yeah. No, no, no, that was much hysteria. Yeah, that was a nine. All right, good. So let's move on to the kind of the meat of the show here. Let's Shall we 28:00 Wait for Blake to open his bottle here because we can all hear it all that loud. 28:06 He had the mute control to hear it immediately. It's like gay. There we go. I'll mute him. Alright, perfect. 28:15 before the show started, you know, Aaron, you would think 42 times into this he would have figured it out. 28:23 But this is this is just like it's everything about get sanctioned. Yeah, it's it's either that his Wi Fi dies. I mean, it's, it keeps going. So, Alright, so let's kind of get into the meat of the show. Because the one thing that we've all kind of seen is just the hysteria that is surrounded Blanton's. And to kind of just give a little bit of background and context there is a great article that was posted by Chuck Cowdery back in 2013. And he gave a history of bland so I'm just gonna go ahead and just take like a minute or two just to read this just so everybody kind of gets up to speed on it because I know we've had people requests 29:00 Like, Hey, why don't you do an episode on the history of blends? Come to find out. There's probably not a whole lot that we could do a whole episode about. So this is gonna be it right here. So if you think back in the 1980s it was a bleak period for bourbon. thankthank Ryan 29:18 is poppin bottles they don't. They're shit what's going on around here? I'm listening Really? I thought it was a good timing. See, Aaron? This is what I'm talking about. Nobody, nobody's learned the proper or how to pour their PR, or I've got my mute button. I'll use camera but I pre poured everything and sure your next go. I've already popped a bottle or two on the show. So I think we're good. All right. I think everybody's got their bottle pops out of the way. Alright, so in the 90 or sorry, in the 80s. sales were down. inventories were high profits were under intense pressure and whiskey assets were changing hands. Most large producers were no longer independent. Instead they were part of conglomerates and with a portfolio of a household names back then. 30:00 Back then F Ross Johnson was the powerful CEO of Nabisco. Nabisco had a subsidiary called standard brands that included fleshman distilling. 30 Falk was the CEO of Fleischmanns and Bob Brandt and this guest Moran discuss my I'm gonna screw that up was the president. In 1983, Johnson decided to sell standard brands to Grand Metropolitan. A few years later, green Metro Metropolitan merged with Guinness to form biagio. Green Metropolitan already had a thriving drinks business that included JMP scotch and Smirnoff vodka, assuming they would be replaced after the sale folk and burnt Miranda's kiss. I know that's bad, resigned and started to start their own company. fulke was previously an executive with schenley. So he approached Muslim reckless, whose conglomerate own schenley about selling some assets Falk and Baranski has originally tried to acquire old charter, but reckless always needed money, so he agreed to sell ancient age bourbon brand and the distillery that produced 31:00 It then it was called the Albert B Blanton distillery. Today's Buffalo Trace folk and Baranski is called the new company h International. As the name suggests, they believe Bourbons future was outside of the US. One of the first moves was to enlist the master distiller at the time Elmer T. Lee with the creation of Blanton's single barrel bourbon to appeal to the Japanese market, but with multiple extensions in Japan and the US in 1991, fulke and Burns has sold 22 and a half percent interest in Asia international to Japan's to current shoes a with the right of first refusal to purchase the remaining shares in 1992, Fulk and Burns has sold their shares to Tucker for $20 million to car immediately sold the distillery to Sazerac but retain the corporate entity and brand trademark. Today Sazerac still owns Buffalo Trace and Buffalo Trace still produces all the whiskey for agent age, Blanton's and other age international products and brands using Nashville number two, which is also being used for Bourbons like Rock Hill farms as well. 32:00 Well, Chris Phalke commented on the article, and he said that that was his father ferdie had passed away from cancer in 2000. But Blanton's was the original super premium brand. And he said he can remember watching him draw the packaging idea on a napkin back in 1983. So follow all of that. Very. So. Yeah, I'd like to add, I'd like to add to that, because this is something that gets really lost in the history of that brand. And I would argue we could have a whole show on the history of it. 32:31 But in the 90s, basically, when the Albert Blanton was was head of the distillery he used to, 32:42 he used to take people out, and he used to pick barrels for him. And then he would actually put that into the Kentucky retail market, effectively making it like a single barrel asset, but they weren't really calling him single barrels back then. And so people you know, Sazerac were always you to use 33:00 It in their marketing that it was the first commercially available single barrel that often got pushback by people. But indeed, it was, but that brand had a huge impact on the world. You know, in my book bourbon I wrote about like how important it was for Japan and how it kind of opened that market up. Another thing that Blanton's did that was really important is it pissed off Maker's Mark and it started making fun of Maker's Mark and advertisements for the saying like, Oh, you have to talk about your wax because your whiskey isn't any good. So they kind of like you know, played with Maker's Mark in their own game and they went back and fourth. And so they had like this state, but blends created this statewide tasting competition, in which they selected tasers and Lexington and Louisville to to have a taste up between makers and blends. Blanton's one Lexington and makers one Louisville so plans is a really really important brand. 34:00 The return of bourbon and this Return of the the introduction of the gold. Blanton's is like For God's sake, it's about time. You know, it's about I want to want to get to that, because that's a that's a big part of today's show. But what I want to do is I kind of want to just trace this back about two years. And I want anybody that has a theory on why the hell did Blanton's just skyrocket in popularity? I know that we've seen it on some TV shows and everything like that, but was there was there something that happened that I missed that all of a sudden this round bottle the horse on top just just went crazy? I have a theory. So I want to jump in, but I guess I will. So I think it's and I wish I had notes because I talked to Chris Comstock about this the other day about 35:00 There's supply the supplies, not 35:04 the supplies, basically, I think it's like five x of what it was a few years ago, is what they're producing now. So it's not nearly as bad as people think. But in my opinion, what started to happen was a lot of these distributors in the store started seeing what was happening with Pappy and you know, the antique collection. And so they started allocating on the distribution side. So then instead of stores just like yeah, or whenever you want, they'd say, Oh, we can only give you two bottles. Well, then the stores start telling the customers Hey, look, I'm only getting two bottles of this. It's at that price point that makes it you know, the high end the bottles cool, it's it's, it tastes good. And so then as you know, that started building, you go into a store and see two bottles, you grab them and then there's an empty shelf. So then the I think the hype just started building and scarcity sells. So now every time people see it on the 36:00 shelf, it's like, oh, I've got to grab as many bottles as I can find or as I can get, because who knows when I'll see it again. 36:07 And that all seems to be happening happening over the last two to three years. I tell the story of that blanes was actually the first barrel pick I ever did for bourbon er, and that was back in 2015. And I remember the the retailer marked it up to I think it was $64. And I lost, you know, so many people saying that they're not going to work with a retailer that was trying to gouge like, I bought five cases, I had a few friends buy a bunch of cases. And now if I got a Blaine's barrel, you know, it'll be gone in a day and you could probably sell for 100 bucks a bottle or something crazy like that. But I still think it's all kind of like a an artificial demand or artificial shortage created by that middle tier. But that's just my opinion. I think it also has to do with the fact that right, so around that time, and don't get me wrong. We've been fans of Blanton's I think back in 2014 we caught 37:00 Call it out on the site that we weren't sure why people were overlooking up. But then is Buffalo Trace in general, right? So all their Bourbons started becoming more known to folks people started realizing Oh, pet Van Winkle comes from Buffalo Trace. Oh BTC What's that? Okay. And then Elmer got really big, right? And then others started getting big. So especially if they wanted a single barrel, right, they go in Hey, can I get an armor? Oh, you can't get an armor. But look at this cool bottle. You get this little horse top or his little wax on little bags, and I'm just finding the box. Why don't you go for that instead? Right? And it was just one of the it's just one of those things where people just want the next thing right so all right, so I can't get any other Buffalo Trace product. What else you got? You got plans, you can get that pretty easy. I'll take one of those. Right and then people start doing a little research, especially if people are really into bourbon. They realize that there's Blanton's gold, there's plans straight from the barrel, which used to be again, easy to find. So two years ago, it was what around two years ago I think master mouth stop shipping right and a lot of store shop stopped shipping from over in Europe. And it was just that snowball effect, right? There's no rhyme or reason to a lot of stuff. It's just people like to hoard people like to know what's cool. 38:00 Blanton's cannon right? Everyone, I'm sure has friends who asks, What should I buy in the store used to be really simple to say, Oh, just pick up a bottle of blends. It's great bourbon, reasonably priced. Just go for it. Right. I still say that. And then I catch myself going, except you're not gonna be able to find anymore, which stinks. But I think a lot of it is just that snowball effect that took place with consumers, especially around Buffalo Trace products. You brought up something very important. Jordan, as you brought up, Elmer T. Lee, and I've been thinking about this a lot since Kenny posed the question to us before the show about why did planes take off and I remember specifically after Elmer died, you could not find a martini you could not find it. And the one bottle that everybody recommended after that, because it was accessible was Blanton's, you know, it was a Rock Hill farms. It was always Blanton's was the was the bourbon that people recommended after Elmer T. Lee passed away. There couldn't be a more fitting bourbon to recommend since that was the 39:00 One that he brought, you know, he brought to life. And, you know, Elmer kinda gets forgotten. You know, Elmer doesn't get talked about as much as you know, some of the other deceased distillers like Booker know and Parker beam. And it's a real shame because he was a Titan of a distiller and I think that he would be, you know, smiling quite happily to know that his stuff was being It was very difficult to get he wouldn't be very happy with the price gouging. But I do believe that that is when it all started was in the in the quest to find Elmer. They got Blanton's and liked it. Fred, I kind of remember a little there was a at least a couple year time period where to me it was the opposite of that. People wanted Blanton's and and Elmer was aged couple of years more than Blanton's and I couldn't figure out why people wanted Blanton's instead of Elmer. I mean they're 40:00 is a time period where it over took Elmer. And I don't know anything about the production. I don't know anything about what's being withheld. But it it to Blake's point, it sure looks that way. So there's another thing that's sort of happening right now. And that is Buffalo Trace and heaven Hill are implementing new systems where you can only purchase allocated items that haven't healed sometimes it's once a month. And in the case of Blanton's at Buffalo Trace, they're now doing this once every three months of actually scanning your driver's license and turning people away. And this is because if anybody is unaware, the line that has been growing for Blanton's at the distillery has just gotten chaotic. I'm talking like two to 300 people that are waiting at six o'clock in the morning to get a bottle of regular Blanton's at the distillery. And so, you know, Aaron, kinda want to pose this question to you and get you get you involved here. Do you think this new system has a chance to actually succeed and work 41:00 Well, I was gonna 41:03 Aaron, you're cutting out, buddy. I think we lost him. Yeah, he and Blake or Sharon schleifer. 41:10 Want to bring them on camera? Yeah. 41:15 Yeah. Try to try to drop and come back on and come back if you can like maybe plug in or something. I'm not too sure. We'll, we'll get you. We'll get you in here. 41:26 All right, so so we'll take that in a different direction. So, Blake, do you think that has an actual chance to succeed with this particular kind of system? So what's the actual system again, sorry, I was typing whatever you know. 41:43 Loud they're only allowed how many bottles like one a month or something? It's this is what happens when like the teacher calls in you and you weren't paying attention. 41:53 Helen has placed they've had an in place for like two years they haven't held where they scan your license when you buy. Like buffalo grease implemented the same 42:00 Yeah, I mean you know you think about will it did that for a while and then they had their their do not sell to lists and everything, it'll, it'll definitely slow things down but I don't know. I mean, I think that's good because 42:15 ultimately you want some bottles at the distillery whenever people come and visit you. I had this experience a few weeks ago and we're up there and a friend of mines like, man, none of these, you know, these distilleries have any bottles like I thought it'd be able to get something cool. You know, heaven Hill, at least had. I remember what we got. I think that William heaven hill there. So at least there was something but that's the hard part is you don't want just the locals to come grab everything that is available. Turn around and throw it up on Craigslist or wherever people are selling these days. We don't do that in Kentucky man. Yeah, it's never happened. Right? Yeah. But you know, so you kind of want to spread it out a little bit. So I think that'll help. Um, but you know, it's 43:00 Like anything else, people are going to do what they want to do, they're going to send their sister they're going to send their cousin they're going to send, if they really want it that bad, but overall, hopefully it kind of spreads the allocation a little bit further. And I'll say, since I'm not located in Kentucky, right, I, at least from heaven Hill standpoint, I actually appreciate that they do that now, because it seems more often than not, whenever I go down to Heaven, Hell, and I always stop by when I'm in town, these tend to have a few bottles, right? That's, I think, based on the fact that they're helping to limit people from buying them. So from that standpoint, I think it's fantastic, right, especially being somebody who's visiting Kentucky and wanting to go I make sure to stop by the distilleries and buy stuff, but now they have stuff to buy, which I'm super appreciative. Yeah, and that's actually part of the reason this was actually implemented was Freddy Johnson was on the stage with Fred at legend series recently, and he talked exactly about this that this is all because of just trying to counteract the flipping game. And if you can limit of what people can get, then you can do that. And plus, they want to 44:00 Word people that are traveling from all around the country to go and visit the distillery and they want to get something unique while they're there. And this is an opportunity to actually make that happen. It's you know, they could release a lot more bottles to 44:15 we'll get to that option. Yeah. It's a difficult it's difficult, you know, I look at it, I look at it from the perspective of like, every time, you know, they, they, the distillers, like, wish for something and then they get it. And then like, five years later, they're like, Oh, shit. Yeah, like net. Like, I remember when they were lobbying for this. They were like, begging to have special bottles. They were begging to have this attention and this FaceTime with the consumers. And now you hear them and they're like, crap, what are we going to do? You know, like now they're facing some of the same problems at their retailer partners have so a lot more headaches for them for sure. 45:00 him personally, you know, three months is, I think a little bit generous. I would have rather seen a year. Because if there's two to 300 people lining up to do this, and they're bringing their brothers, their sisters, their cousins or aunts and their uncles to get a bottle of Blanton's. Like, let's just nip this, like it's Blanton's after all right, like it is it's good whiskey. But let's let's try to let's try to curb this because I don't see a reason why people should be going this nuts over and if they have a bottle of bourbon. And I think I remember seeing a lot of comments when people announced that this system is getting put in place. They're like, Oh, like why are you gonna hurt your you know, your biggest consumers and your cheerleaders and I'm like, they make a lot of different whiskey. There's a lot of different bourbon out there on the market. Like don't pin yourself into just like that one bottle. You know like that Nashville makes a lot of different stuff, right? So like you don't you don't need to be pigeon holing yourself and it just one particular kind of whiskey for everything. 46:00 You drink? Yeah, I was at a store one time and a guy was asking the clerk for it he's like you guys got any Blanton's as a total wine and and so everyone having plantains and I was like hey man like actually they've got a Hancock single barrel pick that they've done and it was like I think seven years old or something 46:20 the exact same mash bill you know, maybe it wasn't in warehouse H or whatever it is, but pretty much the exact same thing is like I don't want that crap. I'm like, Okay, nevermind. No, I mean why bother? No, you bring up a really good point though Brian right? The whole point the whole reason they had the horse in the first place right and way back when wanted spelled lens which is cool, but to entice people to keep buying it. So then you do find people who actually you know, for multitude of reasons right and I'm not judging whatsoever who once they find something and they do want to collect it just for that purpose. I realized you can buy the stopper from Buffalo Trace itself right? But they actually didn't want to start collecting the bottles just to get the topper so not only do they like up and other like corn 47:00 I need to get all the rest of them. Right. So now their demand is well, I just don't need one or two. Now I got to find all I got to the letters, I got to fill it out. Exactly. Right. So it's it's, they've kind of created a little bit of a headache in that sense for themselves. If there was no letters on the bottle, that would definitely eliminate a little bit of that from some well, and a lot of people in the comments have said that the dump date being on every bottle, you know, how many posts have you seen, you know, oh, my kid was born or you know, oh, I'm looking for this dump date. Yeah, work on whatever they want. Yeah, whatever it is, they they want that data on there. I mean, it's it's marketing genius is what it is. It's a product of success. You know, I think Fred alluded to this a little bit of they worked really hard to make these things popular and, you know, get special releases out of the distillery. And then I don't want to say it backfire, but I think it caused them more headaches, and they probably they were thinking it would but it's a product of success. So at the end of the day, I don't think they mind it. 48:00 No no no one thing that none of these companies are doing is they're not utilizing technology you know and Kenny I'd like to get your your thoughts on this because you're the tech guy but How hard would it be for them to like create like an order and hold or some some kind of system for online to connect with a point of sale where someone could plan their trip and then come pick up a bottle I just I just feel like there's so many opportunities to alleviate these problems that they never seem to explore they they're stuck in these inundated antiquated stand in line look at an ID kind of crap. I think it's just simple ecommerce is that a lot of and I think we've touched on a lot of times, even just retailers and everybody else in general, like this type of market is is behind the curve of what we see in every other type of industry. And so if they don't take the initiative to try to figure out like, how do we get our hands in the how do we get our product into the hands of consumers faster, easier, and less friction and make them 49:00 A happy consumer. If you don't take that into account, then they're not gonna do anything about it. You know, the other thing is, is that if you look at what the SAS rack is building with blends and Buffalo Trace and everything, like, they don't really, I mean, they're gonna sell out no matter what. So do they need to go through all that extra effort to invest in an e commerce platform to invest in something where like, I don't know whether they have their own online, put your email in a database and come and pick your bottle up on this date kind of thing? I don't know if they really need to. So it kind of like I said, there's there's, it's a double edged sword from there. And you do actually so Fred, I mean, that's a great point that you make both Kenny and Fred but you do see some distilleries doing that, right. So look at new ref. Look at angels MD with their main club, right? They both do that when they have special releases come out, you can pre buy and they give you a 30 days to pick them up or X number of days to pick up. I think that's it's great. And it's also great for again, if somebody is out in town to be like, Alright, I got a month to go pick this up. I'll plant quickly. 50:00 trip around this or something like that, right? And it drives people there. And then I'm sure once they're there, they're like, Well, shit, I'm here by some other stuff, whether it's from that distillery or local store around there, whatever. But it's just great for the local economy in general. And I wish more distilleries did that. He was envies absolutely crushing their special bottles. People make events out of that. And I have never talked to one unhappy person out of there. I mean, I hear I hear so many unhappy people coming out of heaven Hill, there's so many people, unhappy people coming out of out of SAS, right. Really no one from being but I don't think anyone's necessarily going there for special releases. But the key distilleries that have special releases of all them angels envy is crushing it by far that program that they have people love it. Yep. And plus, it's an easy way for you to kind of like allocate these things online. And not only that is you basically sell it before anybody actually picks it up. So it's, it's, it's instead of like putting it out there and hoping people come like, it's all online if you make it easy and frictionless 51:00 Then you're gonna have a much better way to you don't have that kind of like cash flow in that pipeline coming into man. What if they did like bourbon futures where you could like, you know, buy like a case of Blanton's five years from now. So technically that's kind of what Bardstown bourbon company is doing. So they their barrel pick now is you pay $1,000 deposit to get it, and then which I guess not technically futures, but then you let it age as long as you want. And essentially you just pay the same price for whatever the standard bottling is whether you let it go to 10 years or you let it go six months. 51:39 Yeah, yeah, I'm familiar with that. It's just not it's not proven, but like Blanton not nearly as exciting to Yeah, I mean, that it is it is a concept for sure. But like, I mean, imagine like if you could, if you could buy a futures, Pappy 23 right now when your child is born, 52:00 or something like that. You do it in a heartbeat. Yeah. Now, right now I would nobody would want to track that accountant. Somebody put in the or Aaron put in the chats about basically that's how Bordeaux works and yeah, you know the it's not like a Pappy 23 where you're waiting 23 years but there is some time there and it is interesting to see how that whole market works and I mean, it's pretty crazy. We may get there one day, the ghosts Yes, that's the one thing that we don't that we don't have that the wine world has is like these really high level business people call negotiators who basically broker every single thing. And I think that's why angels envy so successful with that program as West Henderson is kind of like a hybrid, you know, in this world. He's such a business forward leaning mind and you know, it has his dad's DNA. Anyway. All right, I want to shift topic a little bit because this is still gonna be Blanton's, but the biggest news 53:00 That happened last week or was it two weeks ago whatever it was was the idea and the announcement of Blanton's gold coming to the US 53:11 What do you get if you mix Seattle craft, Texas heritage and Scottish know how that's to bar spirits to bar spirits traces its roots to a ranch in rural Texas run by the founder, Nathan kaisers family for six generations. Nathan grew up on the ranch with stories of relatives bootlegging moonshine, and after moving into Seattle, he wanted to keep the family tradition alive any open to bar spirits in 2012. They're very traditional distillery making everything from scratch and each day starts by milling 1000 pounds of grain. Their entire product lineup consists of only two whiskies, their moonshine, and the only bourbon made in Seattle. Both bottles are being featured in rack house whiskey clubs. Next box, rack house whiskey club is a whiskey of the Month Club. And they're on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US. 54:00 Have to offer rack house ships out to have the feature distilleries finest bottles, along with some cool merchandise in a box delivered to your door every two months. Go to a rack house whiskey club comm to check it out and try some to bar for yourself. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 54:21 The biggest news that happened last week or was it two weeks ago, whatever it was, was the idea and the announcement of Blanton's gold coming to the US. And for anybody that has been a bottle chaser or you've been into bourbon for a little bit. We've all known that. Blanton's gold and Blanton straight from the barrel are something that we gravitate towards because you like oh, it's higher proof and, and now we're all like oh, and it's got a shiny gold horse. So of course I want all these. As Ryan said earlier, I want the I want the ski with all the gold letters on it now. So the there's a few questions that arise with this and the first one. I'm going to 55:00 Come to his tariffs, because one thing that we've seen is that tariffs are being it's being catastrophic to the whiskey industry in regards of just it's both sides of the coin here. Now, there is the idea that people are saying, Okay, well, if we are going to have to pay tariffs, then let's go ahead and hold more whiskey back that we know that we can sell to our existing consumer base here in the US. Do you all think that this is a reaction to that? Or do you think this was planned out a little bit further in advance? And they said, You know what, we're going to just do this because we're, let's go ahead and make some more headlines. I'll go first, right. I think 100% has to do with tariffs, right? I think they are looking in real time and how to react. I think they saw a business opportunity. And they're going for it right. They don't want to have products sitting there, or they don't want to overcharge consumers, 55:55 to needlessly sell to no one in Europe, if no one's gonna be paying that price. 56:00 They saw Hey, Blanton's is hot, let's make it happen. And 100% that played into it, whether there's a little pre work behind the scenes going into it potentially. But don't get me wrong, that current tariff situation 100% played into this. I also want to mention that in the press release, they also said that this is going to be an SRP of $120 for this particular bottle too. So don't forget that. 56:21 I like to say that at the top of Buffalo Trace is probably the single smartest person in the entire spirits industry, Mark Brown. That man had this plan probably five years ago and had a rollout leading up to it. And this year is probably going to be like, like some additional Weller products, maybe a single barrel or something like that. I mean, you're going to start seeing like Buffalo Trace, kind of like, take their super premiums and dice them up into more limited edition releases. And it's it's all about getting another skew getting another press release at another company. 57:01 They they own a lot of the conversation market, they own a lot of the store they own almost all the skews that all the retailers want. And if they every time they add one, they've got another one. So they have another reason to have a meeting with a retailer they have another meeting to have a meeting. Another reason to have a meeting with a an on premise person plans goal, in my opinion, is probably just one of the actually well they're foolproof last year was the beginning of the rollout of seeing the kind of evolution of what Buffalo Trace is planning to do with their premium product. They're dicing them up gradually raising those price raising the prices up a little bit more and making them even more valuable. Yeah, and I don't know that's a it's looking at it from a marketing standpoint. Genius. Yeah. 57:57 I don't know there's there's a lot better 58:00 Values out there in my book and I just I I try to resist so much of the hype and I I like the ancient age products probably better than than their other mash bill and and other than some Weller 12 or the the B tech, William LaRue Weller the ancient age math is my favorite Mossville. 58:25 But the marketing just it rubs me the wrong way. I get it. And I wish Aaron was able to stay on because he could speak very highly to this with his experience at Esquire and some of the other more industry facing publications. I'm just telling you, man, you could just throw you could you could dangle any Weller Blanton's, even Buffalo Trace, you know outside of a Manhattan window and you'll have like 50 bro dudes chasing it down. It's the stuff is crazy. And it's genius. And congratulations to them for doing it. It's absolute genius. 59:00 But there's so much for roses and wild turkey out there that that in other brands that are so much better and so much more of a value, I just don't get it personally. So so then that then that then that that's not really a knock on them. That's basically that's our job to say, hey guys can't get this, you know, try this and i and i think Jordan does a great job of that. I think Blake does a great job of that. Kenny, you really just drink it all. So 59:30 Equal Opportunity drinker. That's right. 59:33 And so Fred, I kind of want to like take a counter argument to kind of what you said a little bit, because there was something that came up in the chat by Dave Preston. And he had mentioned that, you know, he thinks that this has to do with like, increased stock that's resulting from ramped up production. However, I kind of look at it and think like, well, maybe they're just taking and to take Jordan's side of this. Maybe they're taking away from the European allocation now and just shifting to the United States, because we've all been 1:00:00 on tours here, right. And we all know we've been in the Blanton's bottling Hall, every day you're in there. They were bottling plants, and they're doing it around the clock every single day. And it doesn't seem that they can keep up with the demand. So where is all this extra inventory coming from? If you don't think it's just like taking away from European allocation and from tariffs, if, like how to keep pumping out more product. So again, this is my opinion, this is all been planned. These are not knee jerk business people. These are very smart strategic, especially when it comes to marketing, and they happen to have great whiskey. And I just think this was a part of it. Did they change their European allocation? Hey, maybe they did, but I think this product was always planned. Maybe Maybe it got bumped up a little bit for for anticipation of more terrorists or continued tariffs. But I think this has always been in, in creation. And I think we're going to see a lot more 1:01:00 from, from that distillery with new products coming out of their heavyweight prop brands like Weller and Blanton's, and, you know, I don't think we'll see anything added to the Buffalo Trace antique collection. But I think you'll start seeing more limited releases. I got to push back just a little bit on that too, though, Fred. So I think, don't get me wrong. I think it's super smart if they were planning this for a few years, right. But I think I would categorize them just as smart for being a very smart businessman. If they read the current situation. They read the current landscape, the current tariffs and said, Alright, how can we capitalize this? Right? How can we turn this around and make it so that it works in our favor? Right, I'd say that'd be a just a smart individual and just a smart move. So while it may be planned, right, I got to give them I hope I'd give them credit for reading the current landscape and saying, what can we do to make this work in our favor? And hey, maybe both are Right, exactly. You know, so like, what I know is I'm not running a billion dollars. 1:01:56 I'm sitting here. So I am, this isn't 1:02:00 Confirm, but it was basically like kind of backdoor confirmed of Buffalo Trace production. So they were producing about 12,000 barrels a year in 95 by 2010, that was around 100,000 barrels. And by 2018, it was 250,000 barrels. 1:02:17 So may not be exact, but gives you an idea of the ramp up. They've been doing over the last, you know, two decades. So when you talk about they may not have had to steal from the European allocation. That's where I think there is more barrels that are going around now whether or not it's just a you know if it's really because of tariffs or is just because, you know, take advantage of the US market a little more. I think it could be a little bit of both, maybe it turned out to be good timing. But at the end of the day, I think they love the new press releases, they love the new brand extensions. You know, what was it 1:02:54 is it benchmark that's getting the next redo You know, we've seen them do it with well are now the 17 1:03:00 to benchmark and I think well, you know, they've kind of evolved the H Taylor brand to have a new release every year. I think we'll just like Fred said, we'll just keep seeing new bit several new releases each year because they want to be able to go back to t

I am finishing an audiobook for Fred Dodson now called Time Travel: Through Consciousness and Advanced Technology and it is awesome! It will be out on audiobook in March, but meanwhile I wanted to pull a theme from Chapter 7 in the book that is worth the whole price! Let's talk about our "way of being" and how things show up in our life. As Fred puts it - Non-Linear Causality. 222 - Non Linear Causality Transcription [00:00:00] and welcome back to another subconscious mind mastery podcast. Thomas and Majona in the booth. Rocking and rolling in here. Welcome everyone. We really are. We were listening to, so Dennis D. Young was the lead singer of sticks back in the day. Allianz and I was playing come sail away and just rocking in this booth with sheet.[00:00:27] The acoustics are amazing. And found out that he's coming to Dallas in the summer, so we're going to check out and see. Maybe we'll go to that. We were blasting from the past and, Hey, I'm sorry I can't listen to that stuff today. Well, I'm right there with you. I don't understand it, but those of you who do, that's great.[00:00:44] I love you. And I love the love the people who make the music that brighten our lives. Even our 17 year old Brock listens to Johnny Cash.[00:00:56] I mean, now that is doing it right. Yeah. See, see these young people, there is hope for the future Majona. There's hope for them that they know they have a musical ear. They're like, this stuff today has got to change. Anyway, sorry, we degress so first of all, thank you for all your notes on the Facebook page.[00:01:15] If you guys are not on there. We both have one. Majora has life after life radio, and I have subconscious mind mastery, which kind of is subconscious mind mastery. And the other podcast that I'm doing every day called fun astrology, and that's kind of where the party is because I'm doing those every day now.[00:01:32] And just following the energy as it affects our lives. For a quick little blip that is posted at 4:00 AM central time every morning, so you can get up and as many people in the comments say, have your coffee and listen to what's going on in the, in the energetic world above. You know what I think is the coolest part of that is to go back and look in retrospect.[00:01:58] That was the energy. Okay? [00:02:00] Globally, what happened that day? Because it's amazing. If you don't see it in your own life, look globally and boom, it's there. Well, and that's a great parlay to what we're going to. Pick apart today because here's the thing. When you think about, we still see in the comments on Facebook, your page, this page and emails that we get, you're seeing that people have an amped up increased.[00:02:27] Challenge and struggle in their life. So we're seeing it in social media. You see it in the context of social gatherings, and it just seems like the whole world is kind of on edge, and now you throw this potential pandemic into things and it's like, yeah, wow. In fact, as we're recording this right now, that one of the top headlines, if you searched today's news, is the locusts that have invaded Africa.[00:02:56] Have you seen that I have not. So the locusts have, they say they're wiping out entire fields of crops in 30 seconds and people are saying, and then you throw in the Corona virus, our people are saying, is this a biblical proportion kind of plague? You know? So I think that's the global energy that people are feeling.[00:03:19] And the biggest concern I have around that is if people go to fare and panic because there's always lessons to be learned and love is stronger. So I'm in the middle of a Fred Dodson audio book, which always refreshes my soul. It's called time travel. Through consciousness and advanced technology.[00:03:39] Recently published in 2020 we're going to get the audio book out and released hopefully in March, 2020 and we're going to make a couple of references to that because it just, you know, whenever you get around Fred Dodson's material, it's just good for you. It's good for your soul, it's good for your consciousness, it's good for your energy level.[00:03:59] And then just the [00:04:00] concept of time travel. Hello, who's not curious and interested in that and is it a possibility? Yes. I think you and I time traveled the day we met, I think so many times since that to past life experiences. So listen, here's the thing, and one of the things that came up from this book is if you're in, like Fred saying, if you're going to time travel.[00:04:23] One of the things you do is you set focuses and an in intentions, and that's all in the book. We'll, get Fred on here too, and I'm sure he'll want to talk about it because he was very excited about this topic. But here's the thing, if you focus on seeing so many challenges. Then what kind of energy does that put you in seeing so many challenges?[00:04:49] Challenging energy. Absolutely. So I'm dancing between a thin line and my, I'd like your comments on this and everybody I know would have their own opinions on this. When you see trends in the news in social media, when you see email trends and you pick up on what's going on in the collective consciousness in the world where we, like when we had our Saturn Pluto get together, were about what, 15 people there, and I asked the question, how many of you have felt more adjuncts in the last about six months?[00:05:27] Every hand went up. So from the position of more so along the lines of. observation, you realize and see more people are getting re like relationships are breaking up, financial challenges, death even. And you see that on an increased basis, throw in a pandemic and locusts, you know, then are we focusing our attention on something or can we step back from [00:06:00] that and observe it.[00:06:02] And play with that energy. I think it's yes, and honestly I think that because our human experiences and we signed up to experience a huge range. That the universe gives us opportunities to experience those, right? We get opportunities to panic. We get opportunities to experience deep peace and love in either extreme.[00:06:28] And everything between your choice is how to deal with it. So when you know, everybody knows someone who can be very, very calm in a crisis situation, and there are those that panic in a crisis situation, there's choice. Which do you choose to be. Well, if you are hearing this podcast, then you have chosen to be on the earth during the Saturn Pluto conjunction, and that, as we've talked about at links on here and on the fun astrology podcast, very frequently is an energy that is still very much with us and will be with us for really most of 2020.[00:07:10] This is deal with your stuff. Bring up massive transformation into whole new realms of consciousness if you're awake and alert to it so we can observe that. We can go back in history and realize that it was under this similar kind of pattern, that the American revolution and the declaration of independence in the birth of the 13 original States that are now the 50 States of America began.[00:07:38] We can see that. Protestantism began and relief from the oppression of Catholic domination began, and the beginning of the Renaissance area era began back in the 13 hundreds so we can observe from history and know that there is, there is transformational energy at play. But here's the thing with that, those [00:08:00] are major institutional changes.[00:08:03] Where does all of that begin? Individual level, right? So everybody going through right now and personal upheaval and the dark night of the soul, all that really unpleasant stuff is your call to action. It is the universe prompting you on a very deep soul level to do some self evaluation and make changes that sweats leads to the big institutional changes.[00:08:30] Absolutely. I mean, it was those, those . People with an accent who called themselves Americans back in the day. I don't know what you'd be talking to them, right. Those people felt the call for independence. It was one little, rebel monk, Martin Luther who said, we doing it this way no more. Mr. Pope. Well, maybe not quite like that.[00:08:53] There would have been more hip, it would've been more hip, more colorful. Hey Pope, we ain't doing well anyway. Yeah, that we keep the expletive banner away from this podcast. So, but anyway, look, you can observe those changes. You can observe the fact that this energy is powerful. Definitely down to your toes.[00:09:19] So here's this other point that Fred made. Chapter seven in this book, time travel through consciousness and advanced technology is worth chapter seven alone. Even if you didn't touch the whole time travel piece. It's kind of an interlude chapter where he talks about nonlinear causality. Oh, I love it.[00:09:41] That's a big word. Okay, so what does it mean? Would you explain how you got from that . Right? Well, I think because people, humans are linear. We look at time as linear. There's a before and after the present. And that's how we look at cause and effect. Science teaches us [00:10:00] to look at cause and effect. But Fred is saying, and in a quantum sense, it's not linear.[00:10:07] It's very, very web, like very interwoven. And that is exactly what Fred talks about. So let's do a cause and effect. Okay, so let's say that you walk into a bank with a pistol and you demand money. You put the money in a pillow case, you run outside the bank. Now today with sophisticated cameras and early warning systems and alarms.[00:10:32] There are police waiting right outside for you. They capture you, they take you down, they take your gun away, you go to jail. There's video evidence of the event. So you are sentenced to a term in jail that's cause and effect, right? Based on our legal system. Yes. Okay. Now, what Fred is saying is if you have.[00:10:54] Greed, or let's say covetousness, to use a biblical word, right? If you covet the money that's in the bank, or if you're greedy about that money or let's even bring it into maybe more applicable terms, you feel that you don't have enough money. That's a way of being that is in the absence of linear time and space.[00:11:21] The same cause that will set up the trip of dominoes, of other things that come from being without money. Right. And you can even take that farther back, you know, say as a child, your growing up on a farm and. It's depression time and the, your father goes to try to get a loan from the first national bank and he's declined.[00:11:47] You lose the farm. Now you're in poverty and in your mind as you're growing up, the first national bank is to blame for that. For all of your hardships, the meals that you didn't get, how [00:12:00] hard you had to work at such a young age to contribute to your fine family's survival. Then as an adult, even though you don't really necessarily dwell on that any longer, if you find yourself stuck in a tough financial situation and maybe you're not approved for a loan or some other catastrophe happens immediately, the first national bank comes to mind.[00:12:25] All right? That's where you Rob, and so it's not linear time. It's really pulling from other circumstances throughout your whole life. It's that energy of negativity that you held towards first national bank for all of those years, that surface later, and because that energy was triggered from that childhood experience, we call that.[00:12:47] Subconscious programming. Exactly. Hello, how did we come to name this podcast? Because those experiences, think about this. Now connect these dots, those experiences imprint who we become energetically that trigger these nonlinear unconnected. Results seemingly and connected. Exactly. That's the whole point is that what Fred is saying is that when you become that lack of money or that resentment toward the bank.[00:13:29] Then that can trigger a whole wide series of nonlinear. Or in other words, it wasn't that, you know, you went in, you robbed, you got arrested, you went to jail. It's, that's a linear progression, right? But it is the whole dynamic of your life that then gets threaded around that way of being, you know, really good examples of this are, I think, present day movies.[00:13:54] People really like those movies that take it deeper. So. In this case, that [00:14:00] might be a movie line. And then you're really thinking, okay, this person, if the movie starts out that way, wow, what is this guy doing? Trying to steal everybody's money? And then it goes back and shows you the backstory, and now you have empathy for the guy.[00:14:13] So you're saying like our culture supports victim hood in that sense? It does. Absolutely. So Fred's point in the book is that these events that happen in our life. Are mostly tied to our way of being or our state. So if somebody says everything bad always happens to me, I can't get a break. And that's their state of being.[00:14:43] And they observe their life and they see that that is absolutely justified and they look at this material and they say, well, yeah, you talk about all that reality creating and manifesting stuff and all that, but it doesn't work. Are they ever going to get out of that loop? Of course not. Because where your energy is is what you will continue to attract.[00:15:03] Now, here's the key. It may not be on that action reaction or action reward. Sequence of linear causality that we're talking about. So in other words, you might be in that negative state and something happens that's positive, right? Yes. But the global theme of your life is going to continue to produce that according to which you are attracting from your perspective.[00:15:34] You know, one thing I think is so powerful, Joe Dispenza's book, you are the placebo. He talks about over 90% of your thoughts every day are one repetitious and two subconscious. So your state of being, if you aren't by nature or by programming a negative person, then most of those thoughts are negative thoughts, which is going [00:16:00] to bring more negative.[00:16:02] Energies into your life as things that happen to you to perpetuate your lack of self control and victimhood. And again, borrowing from the book, there's one line in there where he says, basically you are programmed subconsciously by repetition. So what you constantly feed your mind is the programming. It is, and it's, it is a real effort conscious.[00:16:30] Determined effort to change that. So I think the lesson from all of this is as we're seeing these headlines, as we're seeing the things around us, as we watch videos, I guess at some point of crops being destroyed in 30 seconds by locusts, and as we see friends and family succumbing to illnesses or loss, or even losing people close to us that we look around.[00:16:59] By observation, and I think this is the real key thing to drill down on, not only in your own own life. You have to observe what you are doing. What are you telling herself? And this is where we have to stop our pattern in our daily life enough to get our journal out and do this work where we analyze and review magenta.[00:17:20] And I did this on a walk just yesterday. Where are we? We started to look at, are there any. Cogs in the wheel. Are there any bad thoughts? Are there any repetitious thoughts or as Majona was saying, things that you resist? That's another big clue. If you're resisting something, anything in your conversation, your thoughts or your actions, that's a big clue that that's a piece of this programming.[00:17:47] So the point there is to identify it as an observer. So when you see these things going on around you, does that mean that that has to apply to you. [00:18:00] It does not necessarily apply to you, although probably most of the time it will if it's, if it's resonating with you and getting your attention, but no matter what the situation, I think the real point is to look at this and try to be objective.[00:18:15] Take your emotion out and say, what are the lessons here? What can I gain from this? Several years ago, Thomas and I were snow skiing and I just made a really stupid mistake and felt my knee pop and found myself lying in the snow trying to protect any further damage that turned out to be a broken tibia and two torn knee ligaments.[00:18:43] And literally as I was lying there waiting for someone to help, all I could think about was. There is no way. This is about one stupid mistake I just made. What is the real lesson here? What is this really about? And that set you on a long, I mean, an extended journey of self exploration. Yeah, because I'm stubborn.[00:19:06] It's the universe can't just give me a clue what it's about. It's going to have to show me repeatedly. I got it. And see, that's where I've approached this energy from this perspective. Here's how I've adapted to it. This is the most transformational energy that we have seen on this planet since the year 1518 I'm going to get my piece of it.[00:19:28] I'm going to be a part of it with ease and grace, ease and grace, and I am going to open up to the transformation that comes up as it comes up and as each one of these layers of the onion starts to peel, I am going to do the work. And I want the universe's support to work on it with me and to do it in a, in a as Benefic away as I will allow and I'm really been open to allowing it to be Benefic you are being actually here.[00:19:55] Amazing with that. I think having an accountability partner [00:20:00] is also very helpful, but even if you don't have one, Thomas and I serve in that capacity for each other. But you know yourself better than anybody else knows you. And Thomas will come up with things that I wouldn't necessarily realize for him.[00:20:16] And he'll say, you know, let's talk about this. Let's explore this. So Thomas, how do you recognize those parts of you that are so deep? I can't even see them. Wow. We try to keep these to 20 minutes. We just blew the 20 minutes question. Well, it goes back to number one, when, I changed everything in 2008, 2009, I had to find another way of being, or I was done, you know?[00:20:49] So I had to find a different life. I had to find a different way of living. That sent me on a quest because I had zero tools or zero knowledge of what we so freely communicate on here. Now, I had none of that, so I had to start with learning about it, acquiring research, study, listening to books, listening to audios, videos, et cetera.[00:21:14] Now, do you remember that course that we went to over in Lewisville at Joy's bookshop where that guy pointed at me and he said, you see how hungry this guy is for this knowledge? I do. That I think is probably the key. That number one, I have just for the last decade, have been on a self-driven every day desire to improve my life, and that's just core to who I am now.[00:21:40] I rarely have a day that I'm not just completely focused on how I, what one thing, if, if nothing else, one thing that I could pick up that I, where I could improve my life. So that's one. The second came through like doing so much work around Fred Dodson and picking up that way of [00:22:00] being, where intuition became one of the key things that I started to follow.[00:22:06] And that came from all those hiking trail. Class sessions in Colorado of getting in tune with the inside. So I think there's an increased perception. Or an ability to tone down the mind, turn up the intuition. And you notice a lot of those come when we're walking out there, and that's one of my favorite times, but when they come up, when that intuition comes up, it's like the Malcolm Gladwell blink theory that.[00:22:35] All of a sudden now it's the blink. So you don't argue with, Oh yeah, I can work on that later. No, when those things hit your consciousness for that very spark, and sometimes it's just a little spark, now I reach in and grab onto that and I hold onto it and I magnify it so that that becomes a topic of discussion.[00:22:56] And, and by bringing it up to you or starting to journal about it, or just starting to think about it in my mind, and I kind of have the same pattern. I go back to when it first showed up. I look at the situation and the circumstances around it. I look at how I responded to it. So that's what created the programming, and then I start to look in the opposite direction.[00:23:20] That's my little formula. And that is changing a habit, right? Because like you said, you often think, Oh, I'll deal with it later and later never happens. It has to be now, Nadia, not only even a habit, it's a way of being. So I think, you know, to replicate what we just said there is number one, you have to have that hunger to change your life.[00:23:39] If you don't have that. Absolute passion, yearning to change your life. Then you're just dabbling in this stuff because you try to want to make a little something better. Have you ever noticed a Starbucks at morning drive time and or a Chick-fil-A at lunchtime would be another analogy? How many people are [00:24:00] in the drive through.[00:24:01] And you can park your car and walk 45 feet into an empty line. Right. We are a drive through mentality. We will sit for 20 minutes in our car so that we don't have to get out of our car. Yeah. Just wait on me. Serve me. So apply that to spirituality. And it becomes that we become robotics. So let's think about our linear causality in life.[00:24:27] The alarm goes off, you get up, you take a shower, you get the kids ready. If you have kids, if you don't have kids, then you get yourself ready and you get out the door. You go sit in traffic, you go to a job. Basically you have somebody else tell you what to do for the next eight to 10 hours of your life.[00:24:41] You do all of that. For a paycheck, which we need, and then you fight traffic back home and you, if you have kids, help them with their homework, pick them up, take them to their events, et cetera. It may be you go for a walk, maybe you go to the gym, you sit down in front of the television, you watch some TV because it's mind neutralizing, and then you go to bed, rinse and repeat times five.[00:25:02] Okay, where is consciousness in there? There's not a lot of consciousness. It's survival. Yeah. And that's why we don't see this stuff. We have to break the pattern now. Yes. I was lucky enough at a point in my life created, I'm not going to say lucky, created a point in my life where I opened up a couple of years window.[00:25:23] And didn't, I mean, stumbled into it, but that time in Colorado was my time to really get conscious with this process. If you don't have that ability or if you don't have that, you know, dedicated step away from. Your culture and get into an environment where you can work that through. You can absolutely create it with all of these tools.[00:25:47] Fred Dodson's audio books. Fred's got a great membership site. We're getting ready to create a membership site that we're going to invite you into when we get that established Magenta's podcast on talking about the [00:26:00] nonphysical realm, her angel and guide meditation, and. And, also readings that she's doing.[00:26:06] I mean, all of this stuff that we've created, our resources and tools for you to be able to create that environment in your own world right now. So let's look at that real briefly as a nonlinear linear causality. Ah, good point. You opened up to a new way of being many years before you were presented with the opportunity to go to Aspen and focus on this.[00:26:32] Yeah, that's true. But that during that whole time you're, you're in the RV and all the whole time since then, you've been very focused on the changes and. Being self employed and having to the flexibility to travel and be who you want. That's been your focus is who do I want to be? So it didn't happen right away.[00:26:54] And I do believe a piece of that is the universe fully supporting you. Because if that would've happened too early, you would not have gotten nearly as much out of it as you did. Yeah, that is a great point. And it brings up the point that we're trying to make here. You have to become what you want. If you want to be a millionaire, you have to be a millionaire right now.[00:27:19] Yeah, but Thomas, I can't rub two nickels together in my bank account. How can I be a millionaire? You have to become that in your, not just your mind. I am a millionaire. I'm a millionaire. I am a millionaire. No, you have to be that in your consciousness. You. It's a deeper state than just affirmations or repetitions.[00:27:39] Now you get that by every day that you wake up, you be a millionaire. Yeah. But I don't have two nickels. Nothing's happening. That's where you're in the cause and effect the linear progression. So don't think that just because on the day that you're listening to this episode, all of a sudden you decide to be a millionaire.[00:28:00] [00:27:59] Great. What's next? Ah, you might go in debt. Yeah. We're not advocating that. You know, you might, bad things might happen. Something else might take place. It's non linear. But you hold, I am a millionaire. I am a millionaire. And you through repetition. And emotion reprogram your subconscious and you keep holding that than a non linear sequence.[00:28:29] Sequence of events will eventually present themselves. That will take you in that destination, in that direction. Now, here's the other thing. The question then comes up, well, how long does it take for that to manifest? Ah, as soon as you ask that question. It's not manifest well and you are not in that state.[00:28:50] Right. I said, I played with this with Majona yesterday. I still have my little miracle Jeep that I got when I was, the year in the RV in 2009. It's still doing great. It still looks great. It has 170,000 miles on it. It's still going strong. I still love that vehicle and I. I put my hand up on the dashboard, like I'm petting, it's a little back.[00:29:11] If it were a cat, and I'm saying, I love you. I love you. I do. I send it love because, I just really appreciate the universe giving me that vehicle. And as I was saying this to my Gianna, I wonder when I'm going to own a Jeep. You know, I've always wanted to own a Jeep. I wonder when that's going to happen.[00:29:30] What do you think that'll happen? Magena you know, I asked him, Hey, Majona, when do you think it'll happen? That I own a Jeep? And she goes, you already do, you know it's that I own a Jeep. I would never ask that question, right? So why would I even ask, when is my Jeep going to show up? Wait a minute. You know, look outside, it's there.[00:29:51] It is kind of fun to play with time, take out the linear aspect and, and it kind of opens, we think of it as make-believe or imagination. [00:30:00] Because we think it has to be linear. Have fun with it. All right, let's cut this one off for now. We've gone way over time. Sorry about that, but this was just going to good to say.[00:30:09] Let's stop. So thank you for hanging in there with us. We will see you back again soon. I've got a thing coming up from him at, we're going to go to Colorado and talk to my buddy him at about some yoga stuff and we have more coming up so we will see you next time. Thank you so much for listening. Enjoy the journey. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

This week’s Bourbon Community Roundtable touches on lots of good hot topics. We look at MGP's stock as it continues it's downward trend with our thoughts on how this will play out for them. Then we talk about sourcing in general and if consumers are getting oversaturated with the same bulk market products. Stickers are always a fun subject, but this week there was one released that got national media attention. Will distilleries crack down on stickers? Lastly, we congratulate Old Forester on it’s revamp of the barrel program and cap it off with our most annoying bourbon terms. Show Partners: Barrell Craft Spirits is always trying to push the envelope of blending whiskey in America. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks more about smoked grains. Breaking Bourbon announces Stagg Jr. as their whiskey of the year. Let's discuss. What do you think about the MPG losses for the 3rd quarter in a row? Is the bourbon market oversaturated with brands? What happens when the aged whiskey runs out? Let's discuss the effect of stickers on bottles. What do you think about the New Riff Pitino sticker? Sticker predictions? Brown-Forman comes out with a barrel proof single barrel program for Old Forester. What is taking everyone else so long? What's the most annoying term in bourbon? 0:00 Kenny didn't did my over talking on the sticker thing. get in the way of getting the opportunity to talk about vodka. 0:11 I guess so, 0:13 son of a bitch. Yeah. Hey, I got it. I got it. I got to dial it back a little bit. Man, I really need to talk about vodka on this show. But how much I hate it. I've never done that before. 0:35 Maybe one it's Episode 237 of bourbon pursuit. I'm kidding. And here's some of the news. You know, we've been keeping up with the talks of the trade war going on. And however President Donald Trump and his French counterpart president Emmanuel Macron, have agreed to hold off on the escalating trade war. And this is now avoiding what would have been a massive tariff increase on French goods such as wine, cheese and handbags, Trump and threaten the new duties and retaliate. 1:00 For a tax slapped on revenue earned in France by American tech firms such as Facebook and Google, the two sides will hold off on potential tariffs until the end of the year, as French officials have said and negotiations over the digital tax will continue at the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. A 25% tariff still remains intact and in place due to separate trade disputes related to Airbus numbers are starting to come in for visits to distilleries across Kentucky, and Sazerac, who is not a part of the Kentucky distillers Association has released their numbers earlier this week. The distillery ended 2019 having a record breaking 293,996 visitors during the calendar year. This is a 35% increase in visitation over 2018. And as you know, there is currently a $1.2 billion investment going into everything around Buffalo Trace, including producing more whiskey but also expanding the visitor center. The expanded Visitor Center will be utilized together 2:00 A bit more distillery archives. And as the expanded space will back up to the recently completed fermenter expansion, the visitor center will have a backdoor access to the whiskey making process allowing for new and updated to a routes. The expanded space will also supply another place for event locations for hosting evening parties. Now for this week's podcast, this roundtable touches on a lot of good subjects, we look at the stock of MGP as it continues its downward trend, and with our thoughts on how this is going to play out for them. Then we talk about sourcing in general and of the consumers. You and I are getting oversaturated with some of the same products that we see on the bulk market, and stickers. It's always a fun subject. However, this week, there was one that got released that got national media attention. And does that mean that distilleries are going to start cracking down on them? Who knows? We'll find out and then we congratulate old forester on the revamp of their barrel program. While we cap it off with our most annoying bourbon terms. Are you interested in this 3:00 See what sort of barrel pics we have going on. Right now we are still set to select an old forester whistlepig to Buffalo Trace barrels to four roses barrels and a new roof barrel this year, or aiming to do somewhere around 20 barrels this year and you can get in part of the action as well. Not only just getting a chance to have a bottle from the barrel pick, but you could also be on this selection team. Go to patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit and you can learn more there. Alright, it's that time once again to see what Joe over barrel bourbon has to say. And then you've got Fred minich with above the char 3:35 it's Joe from barrell bourbon. We're always trying to push the envelope of blending whiskey in America. Find out more at barrel bourbon com 3:43 I'm Fred minikin. This is above the charm. Last week in my above the char I talked about smoking the grains before distilling them and how that is changing the character and the flavor profiles of bourbon really all American whiskeys 4:00 And I asked a question in the barrel finishes, we bring up a stink as to whether or not those are really bourbon. I asked, should we start asking ourselves are the smoked grayned Bourbons, also bourbon. Now they technically meet all the qualifications but there was a time in American whiskey history in which they tried to dictate what types of grains were used and where they were coming from. So the question is, because smoking the grains changes the character so much it takes a big right or left hand turn on Kentucky bourbon, Should we open that up? And we got a really good email from Jason Lambert. He's the lead distiller at came and spirits company in the Grand Cayman says he's a big fan of the show. Thank you very much for that Jason. And he, he says, When you think of bourbon, you often think of this as tradition in history. But when it comes to smoking grains, I think 5:00 Industrial kilns were mainstream and most all malls were smoked to stop germination. In this respect, a smoke bourbon would be welcomed with open arms. So as long it is properly labeled, however, this would open a Pandora's box to include grains like the smoke corn, you discussed about MB rolling. But again, I should 5:24 I think they should be accepted as long as it is very clearly labeled. Now, Jason brings up a great point. And I think that is always my main concern is that consumers are not deceived. And that's what has happened in a lot of whiskey labeling is like somebody will follow it to a tee, and then someone else will take advantage of the equity that that one person has built and do something like dump a gallon of sherry in there and then call it it's Sherry finished barrel. The Sherry finished blend or 6:00 Whatever. And you know, when it comes to the smoking of the grains, I just want to be, I just want to make sure that consumers are protected. And the fact is, is that people will do things that they can get away with. So as long as people are, you know, making note on their labels that they're using smoke grains, I don't think we have a problem. But the minute that someone comes out and is pumping mosquito smoke or peated Bourbons into the market without notifying the consumer, that's what it is. 6:35 That's when we have a problem. Because what will happen inevitably, someone will taste that product, and then not like it or like it, and they'll expect that's what bourbon is supposed to taste like. You have to remember that when we talk about consumers, we're really talking about, you know, one or 2% of the consumers, people who are not necessarily engaged in whiskey at all. We're definitely not talk about people in this podcast. 7:00 But when people are arguing for class action lawsuits that somebody was deceived or something, they find like a small amount of people to prove their case. And that's what I'm talking about here. I imagine someone going to some some place like Walmart that's where attracts everybody and they grab a bottle of what they think is bourbon, they go home and taste it and it tastes like smoke or tastes like pee or something that the tourism away from buying another product of bourbon because what they think of in their head is bourbon is that smoke flavor that they didn't like, and so they go back to Crown Royal or vodka or gin or whatever it is never giving something like Evan Williams a shot even though Evan Williams doesn't taste anything like that smoke product that they dislike. And they're in is what why Jason has hit the nail on the head when he talks about it's all about labeling, and trying not to deceive the customer. And as long as we have upfront labeling, I'm always going to be okay. 8:00 With just about anything as whether or not barrel finishes, or actually bourbon, now, that's a debate for another time. But I can tell you 1955 things like four roses of today and Buffalo Trace, they were not even considered the way they are made today would not be considered bourbon in 1955. And that's when the barrel entry proof was the legal maximum was 110. So, even though we have some rigid standards in American whiskey, it's always evolving. What American whiskey looks like in 10 years. Who knows? Maybe mosquito smoke corn finished and Sherry barrels is the standard. I don't know. But I do know that I'll be here to taste it. And that's this week's above the chart. Hey, if you'd like to write me and tell me what you think about above the char, maybe I'll read it on the next episode. shoot me an email or hit me up on Instagram. 9:00 Graham at Fred minich Until next week, cheers 9:06 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon and tonight we are having bourbon Community Roundtable number 40 and it's also the first verb Community Roundtable of 2020. So welcome back everybody. Glad to have everybody here right 9:22 here. So pretty much we got the whole crew here tonight. So Fred, Ryan, Brian, Nick and Blake as well. So how's everybody doing? Doing well doing well Kenny start to the New Year. 9:35 Just fantastic. 9:39 So excited. And for anybody that's not able to if you're just if you're in the car you're just listening or something like that. Ryan has finally got a new background. He's He's finally stepped up and he's got a whole new house renovations got bottles behind them now. I know. I'm like halfway through. You can maybe see if I get all the way. running our shells. I have another 10:00 One next to me. That's empty. But uh, yeah, I'm only halfway there and I'm running out I should have went bigger like Kenny said, but I don't have any more walls so 10:10 I think that's one thing is as we start going down and when people ask they're like, Hey, can you send pictures of like your your shelves or? Anybody have ideas and as soon as you have an idea for how big your shelves need to be, just triple it. Yeah, because always triple it because that's exactly i mean even doubles not going to get there but so when you think you need shelves for your bourbon, just triple it, because that's what's gonna happen. I yeah, just liquidate. I've been like giving like somebody comes to my house and I'm like, Here, take this bottle bottle for you, bottle for you. 10:44 So I'll go on over. I'll give you a funny story. So this past Sunday, my wife kind of went on a cleaning spree and went down to the basement and y'all know my basement. I know many people have seen it on social media. I mean, it's just littered with bottles and just crap everywhere. And she's 11:00 Like, this has gotta go. I probably ended up dumping out probably like three bottles worth of whiskey of just like samples of like 100 ml ml samples of just stuff that like it's, it's stuff that's all like from distilleries that wasn't very good or under age and I'm just like, I'm never gonna drink this. I don't know why I'm hanging on to it. But there's a little piece of you that just dies every time you sit there just empty down the drain. 11:26 Yes, I did. Actually, I had a bunch of media sample bottles and I just dumped them into the canter. We'll see what happens here. Infinity bottles. Yeah, exactly. already had one infinity ball that never touch. And then I like wow, be a great idea to create another one. So I don't drink it and let it sit there but uh, yeah, it's, it's good problem to have. Yeah, yeah, it is. Alright, so let's go ahead and go around the horn real quick. So Blake, we'll start with you. Just go ahead and do the usual. Yeah, I'm Blake from bourbon er calm. Bo you are Bo you are Bo, nr? It's been a 12:00 wow you know I almost forgot how to spell the name so glad to be back these are a lot of fun to do so that you can check me out at all social medias Instagram Twitter, Facebook as well as CEO box comm that's s ELBACH s I'm Nick from breaking bourbon, breaking bourbon com check us out 12:20 on social media all at breaking bourbon. And so I'm not going to spell it for you like Blake Blake i don't know i don't i don't want to screw it up and embarrass myself on live here. But yeah, you guys should know it by now. Breaking bourbon again. Glad to be here guys. Good Brian. Yeah, thanks for having me back. Happy to be for the first one of the of the New Year Brian with sip and corn. You can find me on Twitter Facebook and Instagram at sip and corn si p p n co CEO or MC there I go next can't even spell your own name anymore. And and also see me at bourbon justice.com. Let's start getting into some of the 13:00 The topics for tonight and so one of the one I kind of look at is how breaking kind of made stag Junior famous because it was one of these things that's like stag Jr. has been around, it's been around forever and all of a sudden, they come out and say it was their whiskey of the year and 2019 batch 12 and never at least correct me if I'm wrong Never before has Sazerac ever put out a press release about a new release of stag Jr. and now all of a sudden people are just going crazy for it it's just I don't even know if the initial release of stag Jr. Got a official press release 13:35 batch number 13 yeah even know they had badges 13:40 not getting 13:42 Okay, can I jump in so I was going to share this story earlier but so I was in South Carolina this weekend when we hit a few stores just see what they had three different no it was one bar and two different stores. They're like well, you know, we did just get the George t stag Jr. I don't know if you know this, but it was just named whiskey of the year. 14:00 I'm like, No, no, don't trust those guys. 14:05 It was gone off the shelves and the guy was like, yeah, you know, one of the employees grabbed it here because it was just named whiskey of the year. So, like, dang it breaking strikes again. 14:17 Y'all have a meeting with Jim Murray, you know? 14:22 I wish somehow it's like, it's like a catch 22 because, like, in a way, it kind of it kind of hurts us to to do something like that, because it's generally not insanely difficult to get here. I mean, it's not on the shelves all the time. But it shows up. I mean, if you're in liquor stores as much as we are, you're going to see it, you know, it's going to be out, you're going to have a chance to get it, you know, and so when when you do stuff like that, you know, you always think about the impact of, you know, are people going to lose their minds about it, but the flip side of that is, is, you know, it's kind of nice to have something that's just kind of a regular release, you know, they're not all going to be great. I don't think you know, there's going to be a 15:00 Elijah Craig barrel proof that's fantastic there's going to be a larceny you know barrel proof that's that's fantastic you know that kind of thing you know so it's that idea that kind of these regular releases that we get some really good once in a while we don't have to necessarily hunt you know the crazy stuff that everyone's already going to go nuts for no matter how good it is or not you know that you might just stumble upon you know really good batch or you know really good run a single barrels or something like that. So that's what's kind of exciting about that. But yeah, the catch 22 is it probably is going to be a little difficult to find for a little while at least although you know, probably taper off and be able to find it like you did before. If you know the know the liquor store, guys and you're getting your area. I think it'll still show up, you know, couple months from now. So one of the benefits of never deleting an email is that I have been able to trace every single Buffalo Trace, press release, and I found the original one with the original George t stag Jr. Or the stag Junior bourbon press release July 25 2000. 16:00 13 and I did not find any other follow up releases. So this 16:08 this is the first based on my inbox, which is a very well kept never deleted inventory of all Buffalo Trace press releases. And I remember the first either the first one or the first couple of those were just hotter than all hell. I mean, they were just unveiled. 16:28 Yeah, yeah, terrible. Yeah, terrible one of the one of my lowest rated Bourbons and everyone was super excited for it when it came out. And everyone thought I was going to be the, you know, the George t stag just a little younger, really, it's pretty much should be the same thing. Otherwise just maybe not quite as developed. But that one was pretty bad. And that one kind of turned us off from it for a little while. Of course, I have three bottles of that batch one. But you know, so it's been a little while we've had it here and there. You know, this one kind of popped up and Eric was the one who got it first and he was just going on and on about how great it was. 17:00 We had it and we're like well it's yeah we're going to start buying this again now you know so just yeah I think there's going to be hits and misses they're not all going to be they're not all gonna be home runs but this one was pretty good and from what I hear batch 13 is pretty good too and from a lot of comments people I don't think people didn't realize there were batches you know, if you're not a die hard bourbon enthusiasts, I don't think you're necessarily noticing that the proof is different. And it doesn't say batch anywhere so you know, I think Buffalo Trace maybe realize they could educate people a little bit better. You know, kind of talking about that there are actually different batches of this. You know, like for example, having held us with their you know, how they're identifying their batches now. We're knows maybe we'll switch to doing something like that. Maybe they're just going to try to get people on their website and do press releases from now on you know, be interesting to see what happens you know, everybody actually not opposed to like the the the announcement of a new release like this, if anything, it helps. It helps in a lot of ways kind of like Chronicle when these things are coming out. It gives you you little nuggets of information. 18:00 Because let's face it 18:02 We are at the liberty of what information they want to divulge to us we're very fortunate that someone like new riff or heaven Hill will tell you answer any question that you want. But Buffalo Trace, doesn't they, they don't tell you everything and so like to get any kind of like real like actionable information from some of those distilleries that don't give you information is always a plus. You know, it's the funny thing is this one question that came in and said how many people in the roundtable do the news earlier and guilty of insider trading? You know, for me, I don't even know how this was on your radar because stuff like you know stag Jr. Huge t single barrels are I mean, even even a lot of I mean, thankfully, heaven Hill sends us a lot of the samples for every release of the Elijah Craig barrel proof so we have an opportunity to taste it but a lot of times like a new stag, Jr. thing, just it's just not on the radar for me to go and search out among the liquor stores so well, they're gone anyway, they're not on the shelves here. It's like 19:00 Global's a different scenario Yeah, they get kind of compiled in with the you know Weller releases well or 12 where people have to camp out for it so I'm like stag jr No thanks not camping 19:11 or people camping out for stag Jr. He had they just do like they just they budget in 19:18 the raffles in the lotteries in the release. Yeah yeah it's part of the long line scenario maybe not the camping out but at least a two hour wait sort of scenario that's bourbon for you. Mm hmm. All right, let's go ahead. Let's move on to something fun. Well, maybe not fun, fun to talk about. You know, this is something that was an article that came out of Barron's calm on Friday and talked about MGP is now posting its third loss in a row, sorry, third quarter loss in a row. On Friday, the news came out that the stock had actually lost 20% of its value. It's currently I just checked it before we started here around $38 a share. It's high was back in around June of 2018, where it peaked around 19 20:00 $5 and it said at least within the article that it made a bet on aging whiskey, and that was related to blame, and really was a failed bet at the end the day. So I want to kind of look at the finance guys over here, because you all know what this means about, you know, trying to hit numbers, not posting or not meeting your, your expectations, your results. So what is this to you kind of say about the current market of maybe craft distillers that maybe don't need to source as much whiskey anymore? 20:31 Yeah, I mean, I think it's actually pretty telling, you know, if you dig in a little bit, they dig into like the, you know, the price to earnings ratio, all this other stuff in really what it comes down to is, I don't think MGP is getting the prices for their age whiskies that they wanted to, they thought that they could just kind of they were controlling the market, they could demand whatever price they wanted. And, you know, but you also have a lot of these other distilleries you've got Bardstown. 21:00 bourbon popping up you've got some other you know castle and key who's doing a lot of contract distilling, as well as just some other places around the country we've got a lot of decal bourbon that popping on to the market. So 21:11 I think they were just thinking they were in the driver's seat in our kind of getting proved that they weren't. 21:18 You know what that means for a stock forecast? I don't know that may be a little tough, but 21:24 ultimately, I think they're going to have to bring the prices down some they're still extremely high demand for MGP whiskey. But as I think that MGP probably thought that they would be able to release their own black brains with a little little bit of a better result and they haven't really done that, you know, what the remis and then well, they had the 21:46 the one that Oh, shoot with the old master distillers name that they released under his name, met Greg. 21:52 Greg Mets select but then you know that after he left, I assume they didn't care that on so I think between the fact that they haven't been able to really 22:00 thrown brands with much success. And then there's other stuff popping on the market where you know brands and smaller craft distillers they're looking to source. They have more options now. So I think that's the big thing. So let's analyze what MGP is MGP for years has been a supplier to people who were seeking craft spirits or distilled food, basically distill, distill the alcohol use for food. And in 2016, they hired Gus Griffin as their CEO Gus. Gus comes from Brown Forman. He's not from that kind of brought home and certainly had its like it played in the source market. Don't get me wrong, but not to this extent. And that facility in Lawrenceburg, Indiana, had been used as a blending agent for years and Canadian whiskey and American blends. It was never a place to do it's to have its own whiskey until Pernod Ricard sold it to ldi or Angostura 23:00 We're up, and they started selling stuff out into the wholesale market. They saw so much success with this. Unfortunately ldi could not, could not survive, so they had to sell you MGP MGP saw so much success with the source market that they said, Hey, why don't we have all this great whiskey and hey, you taste the honeybell from NGP. And you tell me it's not great. It is fantastic whiskey. And they're like, why don't we do our own brands. So they bring in this guy from Brown Forman Absolutely. Perfect position ready to go. Here's the problem. The company's infrastructure had always been built around 23:41 the wholesale market or the trade industry or other distillers and helping other other brands. They had not successfully done their own brand. They didn't have the sales infrastructure. They didn't have the marketing teams in place. They had some here and there but they did not build brands. And so in 2016, they shifted 24:00 gears and they started let letting go contracts and they started saying, hey, you're gonna have to find another source for your whiskey because we're cutting back. And here we are, we're basically seeing the results of a fantastic distillery not being supported by, you know, something that we always talk about that we hate in marketing and sales or apps. So that without that infrastructure there, you can see the results. And I know the stock market is not like real life, but it's an indication of what what happens. 24:38 Yeah, I mean, I also think when you look at this as a as a distillery going into this, you want to be able to buy whiskey and and have something that you can kind of buy and then sell almost overnight like that. That's kind of the goal a lot of these people went with. And now when even I mean, Ryan and I, we've been down this path we've talked to MGP like the most that they really sell 25:00 to people like us is like four year old product of that they have the 36%. Right? If you're buying a lot of 30, or buying a lot of four year old product, that means you're banking on betting your whole business on aging NGP stock. And so that doesn't necessarily play into the long term category of a lot of distillers where they say like, okay, we're going to get this to get us over this hump, until we can actually start selling our own whiskey. And so, most people unless you're, unless you're trying to build a business where it's NGP all day, every day for the rest of eternity, then it's gonna be hard for I think, to keep to keep selling some of these younger stocks. I think that's right. I also think frankly, Indiana has something to do with it. I mean, they they caught some bad press with Templeton and everyone referring to it as Oh, it's just 25:48 a whiskey made in a factory in Indiana, and they can't call it Kentucky bourbon. And everyone knows when Indiana's on the on the back. That's where they got it from and it's just a brand trying to 26:00 Make make it go until they can sell their own. And in the meantime, you've got brands stocking up on that can call themselves Kentucky bourbon and you've got a JW locally in particular, with all kinds of warehouses that are full of bourbon. And they'll have that cachet that MGP just won't and a half wonder if it's the market figuring that out. Also, you got to think about to Ozi Tyler has a lot of stuff on the market. Bardstown, bourbon, which 26:30 Blake mentioned earlier barsa Berbick and he's got a lot of stuff out there. I mean, the market is almost in about a one or two years if you're starting a brand. It's a buyers market, you know, because a lot of these people are going to be you know, desk selling have also heard rumors as that anything I can confirm it. So there's been some really strong Major blueblood distillers that are starting to say, Well, you know what, maybe we sell some of those two year old age doc that we have in tanks. So you're starting to see some Kentucky probably 27:00 open back up on the market. Well, you know, the old Barton stuff that's 12 and, you know, 17 years old remains there for half the price as you will know, Kenny. Yeah. Well, it is Kenny was alluding to or talking about, you know, us being in the source market. It's hard to I think MGP is actually built a name for themselves especially for the rye whiskey and the older bourbon I think. I think if you carry the rye whiskey, a lot of people will give you a benefit of the doubt because it's damn good rye whiskey, probably the best out there but the problem is is their pricing it's you can pay $1,000 more for aged, you know, product from Tennessee or or Barton's, and 27:43 then a four, you know, a four year old NGP and it's like, what you know, and when you taste it, it's just it's hard to, you know, invest that kind of money for that young of a product. And like Kenny said, You're banking on you know, aging, that stock and whatnot. So 28:00 I don't know, I think they're, they're getting squeezed barsen by recovery, like other said, and castle and key and 28:07 yeah, I think that's just all part of it. And, you know, they, it's adapted. So they'll they'll figure it out, I'm sure, when they shifted their business plan, they left the market open and people took advantage of it, the only way that they can correct this, you know, to get themselves back in place, is to flex their muscle. And I would really, I would really say that they should spin off their brands, and they should go back to servicing, you know, the craft market because they were so good at that and their infrastructure is set for it. And the market accepted it, you know, we can all say what we want about those class action lawsuits and everything, but no one was ever really bitching about the whiskey. And, and and that's that's telling you something 28:50 that's true. When you're going into you're really putting the marketing in a lot of other people's hands in you don't have to bank everything on your own strategy. You know, you're going to get some great 29:00 ideas from from some really inspired people by doing it that way. And I think that's what's built up their name to this point, because there's certainly an enthusiast group that's, you know, follow these brands that are, you know, probably built from enthusiasts themselves that have sourced MGP To get started, you know, done really well with it. And I think that's built such a strong name for them, you know, in that group, and then just by and large, as a lot of people out there that I don't think they care if it's MGP or not, they just care if they feel somewhat connected to the brand and they liked the whiskey enough in That's it, and it's just about getting distribution to the right places. So I think that makes a lot of sense, Fred. 29:39 You know, I mean, maybe this is, you know, certainly could be a bit of a glut here. Everyone's producing like crazy, you know, we're seeing whiskey come to market a lot younger, you know, then it was he came and dropped off a lot of regular everyday products we see on the limited release stuff, of course, you know, but is it to the point now, where it's just gotten that much harder to compete, and people may be overproduced 30:00 A little bit, you know, compared to what the what the projections were, Nick, you bring up a very interesting point. You know, we always talk about the glut but The what? The thing that's different now is that there's this whole lifestyle and tourism impact that American whiskey has jack daniels is enjoying it and so like if you're a fan of it, you can go to Jim Beam, you go to Maker's Mark what a Buffalo Trace and have the experience of your life. No one's going no one's going to Indiana. So you know that's, that's a that's a component there and I'll say this about MGP I hope that they stick with it because I think that's a good company. They just, you know, we all make business mistakes. I think this was a business mistake but I do not want to see them sell I think they have the passion for it. I do not want to see this get in the hands of printer card or Dr. Joe or someone like that, who's just going to turn this into a churn and burn place without any attention, you know, to the whiskey in American American whiskey hands and I don't want to see it be sent off to for blending purposes again, the world got 31:00 taste that whiskey and the world said we like that whiskey from Lawrenceburg, Indiana. 31:07 And the people have spoken here here. 31:11 So while we're also on the source whiskey path right here, you know, as we start looking at the scene of more and more Bourbons coming to the market, there's only a limited supply of sources that things are coming from. And this is one that, you know, we all kind of talked about before on the show, are we starting to see that the bourbon market is now being oversaturated with brands? Because, and don't get me wrong, we're probably problem too. Right? We're part of the problem too. Now, however, like it's it is becoming to the point where there is a lot of private label stuff out there. 31:45 I just saw somebody released one called Blue Ribbon bourbon, which is a revitalization of a label that was a 12 year old Kentucky bourbon about a week or so ago. And I think we're going to end up seeing more and more of these in the next probably few 32:00 months, few years, something like that. So do we see the over saturation of the market starting to happen? Well, I was I was wrong about this about four or five years ago. And so I guess I'm not, I'm not going to be reporting on the demise or the bubble being pop just yet. I mean, I thought four years ago that I'd be buying someone's still out of bankruptcy and I'd be the able to have my own little distillery on the first side hospital. Sure, didn't happen, obviously. And if we can get past tariff issues, and if we can get past trade issues, there's so much capacity overseas, it'll it'll soak all this up, and we won't notice a blip here, despite all of this production coming out. So we just have to think it's going to keep pushing. And I guess I would say, you know, from a, from a production standpoint, there's there's a lot of it, you know, where it's going to get consumed, it's going to grow almost just from 33:00 A pure, like, different brand standpoint, pure number of producers out there. You know, I think there's probably plenty of them out there that do not necessarily have a passionate person behind them. You know, there's a lot of money in it right now. You know, there's plenty that do have passionate, excited people behind them, I think we're going to see, you know, a percentage of those succeed, you know, but they're fighting for shelf space on a limited number of, you know, a limited number of retailers. You know, they've got to go through the distribution system. You know, there's, there's ways around it, of course, to some extent, but I think the reality is, is I think if you flood with flood with just too many different brands, there's just too much noise. And I think we're going to see a challenge for, you know, just an overflow of these to succeed if they don't have the driving force, the passionate people behind them, you know, kind of that gumption to, you know, to stick with it. I don't know, I don't think it's necessarily a quick money play, you know, per se, the same way. It may have been, you know, five, seven years. 34:00 years ago, at this point, I think the competition's a lot tougher. And so you got to pull a little bit more into it. You gotta have something special, you got to bring a destination into the mix, you've got to you just have to do more. You're not just, you know, the bottle something, put it out there and have nothing behind it and succeed. Yeah, one thing, I think with the source, you know, I mean, obviously, like Kenny said, there's a few sources that people get it with the refreshing thing about the source, age market, it's comes with an age statement, like nothing else out there is really coming with age statements. And you know, that's one niche they can hang their hat on. It's like, okay, we can give you a 11 1214 year old, you know, whiskey and you can't hide age. You can't there's just, you know, five, six, it's fine. But when you get 11 1214 there's something special unique you get with those types of Bourbons and still, and we're whiskey geeks. So we noticed these brands, we know where they come from, but the general public, they have no idea. You know, they're like, oh, any idea about this brand? No, it's 12 years old, you know? 35:00 They've been producing forever. Right? They opened up yesterday. Yeah. And so it's, 35:06 you know, as us we probably think, yes. Like, oh, how ridiculous. Can there be another 12 year old baartman brand out there. But the general public, I think, doesn't see that it is see that age number 12 years, and they get excited about it. I guess the other question that kind of comes with this is, we all kind of know what happens when you buy a bunch of stuff. It ends up running out right, it'll go dry. So what do you all kind of see is like some of these brands that are hanging their hat on putting that big number 12 of Kentucky straight bourbon whiskey as their brand. When we know here in maybe a year, maybe six months, maybe it's two years? I'm not too sure. But this will run out? 35:49 Yeah, I mean, I think it's tough to say because I'm, I'm kind of with Brian, where, you know, probably four or five years ago, I thought and by 2020. We'll see a glut nobody's gonna care about 36:00 This stuff anymore and I'm going to pick up, you know, 36:03 maybe not Pappy, but at least like well, or 12 or something again, but the demand is increased even faster than anyone expected. So 36:12 I think people will stick with brands, even if age statements are dropped. I mean, look at Elijah Craig. Granted, that's a massive company behind it, but they've gone through it Look at you know, Jim Beam eight year, the Black Label that they've gone through it and seems to be no issues. So, you know, I think a lot of these things are just blips on the radar radar, and it's a marketing thing that they have to figure out. Even when, you know, you hang your hat on age statement, you have to drop that age statement later. That ultimately what I think it comes down to is, is the is the whiskey good and, you know, it's easy to get stuck on a age statement. If it's good people drink it, people will talk about it and you know, it'll continue to grow so I don't I don't see any signs of slowing down even with it. 37:00 There's going to be a huge flooding of the markets in the next five to six years of Bourbons from New distilleries have been, you know, aging for a while, as well as other major distilleries that have just increased production over the last six to seven years. 37:15 As long as bourbon is cool, people keep buying it. 37:20 You keep it cool, Fred. 37:23 I've got that. 37:25 Pretty sure. So, you know, as we start looking at you know, Bourbons come on the scene. There's one thing that we always also see that that happens in this world of bourbon and that's, that's stickers. 37:39 With the careers of master distiller spanning almost 50 years, as well as Kentucky bourbon Hall of Famer and having over 100 million people taste his products. Steve nalli is a legend of bourbon, who for years made Maker's Mark with expertise and precision. His latest project is with Bardstown bourbon company, a state of the art distillery in the heart of the bourbon capital the world. They're known for the process 38:00 fusion series however, they're adding something new in 2020 with a release named the prisoner. It starts as a nine year old Tennessee bourbon that is in finished in the prisoner wine companies French oak barrels for 18 months. The good news is, you don't have to wait till next year to try it. Steve and the team at Bardstown bourbon company have teamed up with rackhouse whiskey club rackhouse whiskey club is a whiskey the Month Club on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer. Their December box features a full size bottle of Bardstown suffusion series, and a 200 milliliter bottle of the prisoner. There's also some cool merchant side. And as always, with this membership, shipping is free. Get your hands on some early release Bardstown bourbon, by signing up at rackhouse whiskey club.com. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 38:50 So, you know, as we start looking at you know, Bourbons come on the scene. There's one thing that we always also see that that happens in this world of bourbon and that's that sticker 39:00 And there's one that the recording of today is Monday and there's one that just kind of get real big real fast and this was a play you know, one thing that I always loved about new riff is somebody that's something about riffs something and so riff pitino of play on Rick Pitino is one sticker that kind of got big on bourbon today. And what this does is it depicts a a kind of like a to face of Rick Pitino you got UK on one side you have Elad another, they have UK holding up a trophy and they've got a bunch of UFL players throwing dollars at strippers on the other side. And this got so big that it got picked up by Kentucky Sports Radio which is a very large syndicate here in the state that then got picked up by barstool sports. And in the barstool sports article, it actually talked about how it was coming from the distillery, right it didn't say it was a pretty 40:00 private group I didn't say it was a pic it like it said new riff. I'm sure they love that. Yeah, I mean, I guess I guess you know any publicity is good publicity but like At what point or I don't know maybe how about practicing a little journalism I Tommy call me old school but hey how about we actually call the company that there's no money in it with it you could call somebody for that. Yeah, yeah I mean all of this I feel like new riff is is an enormous victim right now and it just it drives me crazy because this has this has been happening I've been covering this business for you know 1415 years in all it's never happened this egregiously but like a brand really got damaged today it there's no question about it that someone saw that article in is going to have a bad opinion or saw the tweet is going to have a bad opinion about new riff for the rest of their life and they will not have taken the time to follow up to see you know what the real story was, but new riff got 41:00 Damage today because somebody made a sticker and put it on the bottle and made national national trending news, whatever you want to call it, but you know they're hurt from this or are they hurt? I mean they sure they're they're hurt I mean that's 41:20 but they're getting press on this folks who had never heard of this small distillery in Northern Kentucky now know about new riff and they're going to hear a lot of response to me about Oh, new riff is actually you know, get get the get the new riff. I mean, this is a fantastic single barrel. Well, I don't think anyone actually most people, you know, the way the world goes with this stuff, it's it's going to be the one thing that someone clicks on and then they're going to see a cat and they're going to go to something else. So I that I don't think there's any kind of real value in any kind of trending topic. I mean, there are multiple studies of somebody who comes up with something you know, clever on Twitter. 42:00 They don't their Twitter followers don't grow, you know, they get 30,000 retweets and what have you and their Twitter followers grow by 20 or something silly like that. And, and, and the fact is, is that within the Kentucky Community, you know, they're already kind of an outlier because they're in Northern Kentucky. They're not in Lexington, or they're not unlovable, and they're not in Bardstown. So they're an outlier as it is. And, you know, this sort of thing, puts them in kind of like a weird position in the state. And it has made state news. It's been tweeted by Matt Jones. And so everyone sees it, and all anyone had to do was pick up the phone and call the distillery. And then there's the whole thing could have been like, hey, this barrel group is doing this using this. They just pick up a sticker. Now it's free speech, right. And the distilleries can't dictate to anybody what they can do to the bottle after it's been purchased the same way that Nike can't dictate to you what you do with a pair of shoes that you pick up, you know from shoe locker or 43:00 Whatever. I mean, when I was a kid, I used to spray paint shoes. And that was probably stupid at the time, but I did it. No Shoe Company was coming after us to, you know that we couldn't spray paint our shoes. And that's really what it is here is that you have to practice you know, practice some, some, you know, some common sense of say like, Hey, is this a good idea? Does this pass the smell test? And I think this, this whole thing has 43:28 it could be the one sticker that, you know, puts the whole 43:33 you know, takes the fun out of all of this. I mean, honestly, a lot of people don't like the stickers. I love them. I love looking at everybody's stickers. I like getting on social media. And seeing people's post about it. I thought it was great. And this one even if 43:49 I mean I it was too far, it was too far. 43:55 actually makes it cool with younger people and that's growing. 44:00 It looks like because most bourbon brands are like, old man kind of like real old school kind of thinking. I don't know, the barstool sports, you know, they have a lot of millennial. Most of you know followers and that's where Bourbons growing and that's the future of bourbon. And I think they'll probably think it's cool. I know it probably drives me crazy Fred that that's what they love, they love like, I like tweeting and all this stuff and I and I, and I watch barstool sports. I listened to the pizza, the guys pizza reviews are great. And I just, you know, this is just one where I don't know it's just I would have to agree with Fred where I thought this one kind of went over the line a little bit on on a sticker but but the press was fantastic. You know, it's you can't pay for that kind of that kind of viral effect. But was it wasn't Ken Lewis, the one who on the on bourbon pursuit said he didn't like the stickers and is like, you know, I understand people are free to do whatever they want, but we put a lot of time and effort into those 45:00 bottles and 45:02 we prefer that then they stay the way they are you're right it was killing us on this podcast and said that I think he's the only the only you know owner I can really think of who's talked about that now granted new riff gets way more just because of the the funniness of the the name way more stickers and craziness than other ones but overall you know it definitely hit an audience but i mean i don't know i can't condone putting strippers on your bourbon bottle that's just a little far for me. So here's here's another side okay, so I like again that that audience that's getting touched is not going to get converted for new roof. It's just not they're not going to take the time to go seek out a bottle if they do they're going to do it in Jersey where the bottles not available and find a bottle go to seal box calm 45:57 should a quick link in the show notes. 46:00 Nice I like it. This is the whole setup, you know, not what this stuff but this is this is a this is a trend that that social media has brought that a lot of people do not appreciate and that's the social responsibility aspect of, of, of alcohol, their actual laws about what can be put on the bottle and their actual laws about what the distillers can promote. Yeah, putting a stripper on the bottle is is is within many violations now obviously new rifton do that. But I have seen multiple bourbon groups have a have their child hold the bottle and you know quickly those things often get taken down. But people don't practice they don't they don't look at. They don't look at the bottle as like some kind of 46:55 regulated you know, piece of real estate and 47:00 You know in these kinds of things are going to end up hurting the the distilleries, the community, the hobby, all of it. Because we're all the the bourbon world's already under, you know, every Attorney General in the country is already looking at, you know, the secondary markets as like some kind of like easy press release for them to take down and arrest arrest Joe Schmo in a parking lot in Pennsylvania. They're like, pound their chests and say like, hey, look at us, we're taking down illegal illegal drinking and legal selling. And so, you know, we don't need this kind of activity happening. Because all it does is it puts it puts a bigger Bullseye on the entire industry. And it just frustrates the shit out of me that people don't get that when it comes to like having their kids next alcohol when it comes to the stickers when it comes to anything and the fact is, at any given moment, like Facebook or whoever could just snap 48:00 It's all gone, it'll pop up in something else, but it'll be gone in that particular medium. And that is where you know that the stick that particular sticker is in that same kind of categories, right there. 48:13 Yeah, I mean, we've talked about stickers plenty of times on the show before and, you know, whether it's you know, you want to commemorate something or whether it's a an opportunity for you to pay homage to somebody I know we've seen people that have like had Freddie on the bottle before I know there's people are afraid to on the sticker. You know, there's a lot of fun things that get played with it. This just happened to be one that blew up rather quickly. And only because I think it 48:39 It had a little sensitive subject around to it, but you know, it's a it's it's Kentucky and it's basketball in the day. So maybe that's just why it started really supporting it. You know, you shouldn't ever went to frickin level. 48:55 There's just there's no restrictions on the rival 49:00 Read between Kentucky and u of L so that that that's part of it. And that's, that's why it's on. That's why Matt Jones is is tweeting it. And that's why it gets on barstool sports. But I think overall there's there's obviously the risks, Fred, that you point out. I think overall, it'll end up being fine for new riff. I think what it's going to do though is it's going to call the attention to all the distilleries about what goes on these, these stickers for the private groups, because a lot of them use trademark images. I mean, there's plenty with with Marvel Comics, images that are trademark images. There's, there's there's just free use of anything out there that are protected marks, and the distilleries are going to have to have some responsibility for that. I absolutely disagree. I disagree with you on that because once that once it is bottled, it is going to the distributor and it's being sold to a retailer. So the the 50:00 The responsibility on this is going to be on the retailer. If they are putting that sticker on there at the distillery, there's some liability there, I would assume. Yes. Yeah, it's wherever they go place. Yeah, that's where a lot of them come on. I mean, I've know some that go on on post sale, but a lot of them go on at the at the distillery, they'll give them the sticker and it goes on there, that that's going to be restricted. Now once it gets into into the group's hands and gets whatever stickers on it, that can still be trademark infringement, but you're gonna have to go after the group for it, which will be next to impossible. So if it's if it's Disney trying to protect a Marvel mark, they're going to go to the distillery and say you need an agreement with whoever does private selections that they will not be using any infringing marks. I wonder what Rick Pitino thought when he saw 50:55 the he says 50:58 he's like, I just can't get away from this trip again. 51:00 thing, you know, you know, he's he's probably, you know, he hasn't did he Sue anyone with all the coverage that he got? I don't think you know, probably now i don't think i don't think he will I think he's just trying to get another job and to be honest with you, if the Oklahoma State job pops up, I pray to God that he goes there because we could we could use a winning season anyway, that this whole thing is 51:26 it it just kind of like plays into a whole nother 51:31 you know, conversation to be had about, you know, what is, 51:37 you know, what, what is the standard of, I guess, being cordial, you know, we've lost in, in an overall society, we just, we just put pictures up with people and, and, and have a good laugh at it. And yet we have 12 year olds trying to kill themselves on a daily basis, because they're getting made fun of online. It's like 52:00 At some point in our society, we're going to have to take some, 52:04 some responsibility for what we're posting online. And this is this is a part of all that it's a greater conversation. But 52:13 you know, 52:15 it's sad, it's sad that it's accepted. And people just go on with it and have a good laugh. But the fact is, you know what, my grandpa wasn't doing this you know, when when they were trying to you know, create a cut, you know, basically rebuild this country after World two. And you know, and here we are, and it's just kind of like, this is what we're This is what we do on a daily basis. That's it 52:42 your mood and change the mood? Yeah, go look a little like a good device. The subject I feel like the you know, the the router game will fall every problem. 52:52 All right, let's move on. I think we're ready. 52:57 I'm ready. That went deep. So you know, as we are 53:00 Talk about private barrels and you know, private pics and stuff like that. You know, I think there's one and I think, actually, Blake before we can go on to that I think you had a had a sticker prediction for 2020 as well. Did you want to kind of really? Yeah, yeah, it kind of, to piggyback on that a little bit, I think there's going to be a brand or distillery that comes out and says, you know, they can't control it. But they will be very boisterous, kind of how the Van Winkle have been about the secondary about, you know, no stickers on their bottles. Like we said, you know, if the bottle comes untouched, gets in the hands of a customer. You know, my six year old can color on it, I can throw a sticker on it, it doesn't matter. But a lot of times when these things are getting advertised, I think they could stop it and you know, somebody put it in the chat. That's why steel box puts the sticker just in the box and doesn't put it on there. But I think there's going to be somebody else who comes out and says, You know what, we don't like that. And we'd prefer that you know? 54:00 People not do this to our bottles and in there a little more outspoken about it. So I think that's coming especially after today. You think that's what it's new riff Blake or do you think somebody Yeah, I mean they already kind of said it. I think it's new riff I mean you think about the the major ones are getting stickers. New riff will it a lot of Buffalo Trace pics you know Buffalo Trace Weller's, all that kind of thing. Will it seems to be okay with it? I don't know. I've never seen them have an issue. I've seen them do some distillery releases where they have stickers. But yeah, I think it'll be new riff, you know, especially after this backlash, that that does say something. 54:42 You know, some people kind of get the fun of it and others, you know, to his point that he made on the podcast it was we put a lot of work and design effort into this bottle. We prefer that it stays the way it is. So, you know, I think it'll be interesting to see what they're able to get away with it. 55:00 Cuz, you know, they can't, they can't dictate free speech? Well, I'm very much in opposition of, of poor taste, I also support free speech. And, you know, if when someone gets that bottle, and they can put whatever they want on it, and I think the only thing could probably dictate his say, you can't, we will not be putting this label on the bottle. And if we catch you doing it, we're not going to resell to your group. I think that's about the extent of it. And honestly, I think that would be the biggest return of all they said, Look, you know, we're just not going to let you do another pic. If this is how the bottles are going to be treated. I don't think there's anything wrong with that legally, you know, they're allowed to choose which groups they allow to buy barrels. 55:49 So I don't know it take a little bit of the fun out of it. I mean, I know we had some fun with our rollers trail pick, so it does add some fun, but overall, I think it's gonna 56:00 If it continues, you know, they'll have to at least acknowledge the fact that they're not associating with with a lot of these stickers. I mean, it we can all, you know, prevent all this by just, you know, practicing common sense, right. 56:18 That's way too much to ask these. 56:22 Remember we started what what is bourbon? bourbon is drama. Yeah. So that's what it's all about. Yes, it is, always has been, by the way. So as we as we continue this theme of talking about single barrel selections and stuff like that, there's there's one that's sort of leading the pack and kind of made a big splash this year already. I know it's rolling in January. But the biggest news was that brown Forman is now coming out with a barrel proof and 100 proof option for their single barrel program of old forester and will be retiring their 90 proof version. This all is going to come into effect around the May timeframe that kind of begs 57:00 Question. What's taking everything else so long to get on board with this? Gosh, I applaud them for listening. I mean, yeah, absolutely. I'm Foreman's like just they are like nailing it on all aspects the past like two, three years, they just been doing great releases at great prices like putting out ever since Jackie's joined. I mean, it's just they've been nailing it out of the park and they're listening to fans. They're doing everything like I commend them so much like it's it's incredible. I've done an old forester pick at barrel strength it's absolutely incredible. You know, and it's I'm so excited for this unfortunately our pic will be at 90 proof because it's not before 57:39 before May So, but Gosh, way to go brown Forman like talk about company and listens to people and then listen to their fans like I applaud that. Absolutely applaud them. I mean that's on those barrel pics there have been some of the best straight out of the barrel bourbon, I've have had hands down and we've been 58:00 crying for it for five years, and maybe it takes that long but we finally have so I'm happy. Yeah, I put this in a post today about I've never been that huge of a brown form and fan for over the years. But there Honestly, I think they did better than any other distiller I can think of in 2019 really last couple years with their whiskey row or releases, you know, the the hundred proof raw or the straight rye that they released. That's like 23 bucks a bottle. And now this with the barrel picks, what does every single person say? Whenever they go to do the barrel pics, what will they let's do it a barrel proof. And the answer's no, you got to water it down to 90 you gotta water You know, one of seven. There's something hard to do. We got to do a TTB filing. Yeah, yeah. And I don't think they just continue. I thought the old forester birthday bourbon was fantastic this year. So yeah, I mean, kind of hats off to them. I think they're 59:00 They're crushing it with the whiskey crowd right now or the, you know, the enthusiast crowd at least. So, I want to get in on their barrel program now. Like, who do I need to call on that one, but now I'm excited to see what else comes out of there because we know they have a lot of good barrels sitting so it should be a lot of good barrels to kind of, so a little breaking golf. Sorry. 59:23 Breaking News. Yeah. Okay. Let the man talk. Okay, kind of sorry, Fred, kind of to that point. 59:31 Blake, you know, I think you know, talking about the enthusiast crowd, you know, you gotta wonder if if the Steelers are looking at it as a real small portion of the community that does really want that is going to be impacted by that and you know, look at it as from a cost benefit that maybe it's not there, you know, but that kind of listening to the enthusiasts and even if it you know, the single barrels and barrel proof only do get into a small number a hands, you gotta wonder if they're looking at kind of that spiral effect of, you know, if that kind of interesting 1:00:00 goes down from there to just people's association with the brand. So kind of talking to everybody, you know, the enthusiasts, I think we're relatively speaking a pretty small group, you know, when you look at what really sells and where the numbers really get posted, but we're a pretty vocal group too, I think and it's great that they're listening and making their products better. And yeah, I mean, across the board when you have those pics and you're there and you're tasting all the barrel, and it's so good then they water it down and it's it's not the same It's a shame to know that it's going to be watered down and they're basically going to ruin what's otherwise a fantastic bourbon. 1:00:36 Well, and so I wouldn't go to room. Sorry. 1:00:40 I want to hear what you say. But I've some of your and watered down some of those old forester private selections have been fantastic. Sorry. I just mean, I just mean in general, you know, yeah, I'm with zero proof. It's fantastic water down. It's just not anything near where it was. Yeah, you know, it's really those it actually some tastes better with 1:01:00 Water than they do it barrel proof, you know and so it's kind of funny how that goes to. All right, go Fred. All I was going to say is because of everything that she has done and is continuing to do, and her 1:01:14 her effort to find herself we're putting Jackie's I can on the cover. bourbon plus. All right, fantastic. She if you guys can beat me out, 1:01:32 pulled away. We should probably 1:01:34 more community vote next time. 1:01:38 Jackie's gonna win every day of the week. Yeah. The photography on her is amazing, but this story is about her. We know about the whiskey side and that's there but on the personal side, she's she fought like hell. And I got to tell you all when I tell you that every single great thing that is happening on the old forester line. 1:02:00 is in large part because of Jackie's I can. But also you know who she would say is her partner in crime Campbell Brown, the president Campbell deserves a lot of credit for taking a brand that was kind of like forgotten in the world and giving it the love and attention that it's deserved. And that's a good brown Forman on it sharp dude, he's done. They've done amazing things since he joined. So that's a great point. Yep. And I guess kind of like last question that we do, as we kind of wrap this up is, you know, as we see, brown Forman come out with this barrel proof single offering, and I know that the eyes are on one company, now that everybody kind of looks at and says like, okay, we love We love to taste your stuff, a barrel proof, we want to see a barrel proof offering. I mean, is it do we actually see this as a change of the bourbon consumer market, where more people are actually opting to actually want to have barrel proof expressions, rather than saying like, Okay, well, I'll just 1:03:00 Take this 94 proof counterpart because that's all you're going to give me. Haven't we always been there? We have. But I mean, now you see the them actually starting to adjust to maybe some market reactions. Yeah, well, the single girls are like, really for whiskey geeks. It's not for the general populace. So, I mean, but the general population, they even think 94 proof is fucking hot as hell. They're like, you know, they even like 86 they're like, Oh my gosh, it's so hot. You know, but uh, 1:03:31 I think so. Yeah. 1:03:35 Yeah, I'm Ryan, I come across this people. I wonder their way. Yeah. Yeah. 1:03:40 What has happened is they finally have listened to the data and listen to the people who are out in the market saying that new consumers and women and people who are wanting to, you know, to drink in a sophisticated fashion, want higher proof and I believe it you 1:04:00 No, Peggy no Stevens has played a big, big role when she handed over the bourbon women's research that women preferred basically Booker's as the as their drink of choice and the like every day that you can find in the in the market. And so when they started seeing that data, they're like, Oh, well, we all need to kind of, you know, create, you know, somet

In this Bourbon Pursuit exclusive, listen to a story from an admitted bourbon counterfeiter. This episode dives into the motives, operation, and recourse of a bourbon counterfeiter. Listen to how an addiction contributed to a cycle of refilling empty bottles and reselling them on the secondary markets and the ultimate price he had to pay. We hope this interview will serve as a lesson for not only folks connected with these circles, but also for whiskey producers to implement new packaging to protect their consumers. DISCLOSURE: As a part of the agreement to come on the show, we are not revealing the identity of our guest as he wishes to remain anonymous. Any comments regarding the guest’s name will be deleted and anything shared is not factual and is considered libel. Show Partners: The University of Louisville now has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/pursuespirits. Barrell Craft Spirits has a national single barrel program. Ask your local retailer or bourbon club about selecting your own private barrel. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Distillery 291 is an award winning, small batch whiskey distillery located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Learn more at Distillery291.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about online alcohol sales. How did you get into the bourbon market? When did you start thinking about counterfeiting? What made it easy to counterfeit? Why aren't you in jail? How were you caught? What happened when you got caught by the community? Why did you not turn yourself in? Did you feel remorse or just bad because you got caught? How many counterfeit bottles did you create? How long have you been selling counterfeits? Did you ever counterfeit a Van Winkle? What was the fall out after you were caught? What kind of threatening phone calls did you receive? What was it like facing your family? Are you still with your wife? How can someone spot a fake? What did you refill with? Now that some time has passed, how are things going? Did you ever talk to any other counterfeiters? Did you consider it fun? Did you need the money? Are you starting to move on? Have your parents been able to look past the situation? How much revenue did you make? How were your kids affected? What would you say to someone thinking about counterfeiting? What did your friends think? What if you didn't get caught? Would it be worth the money? Would you ever try to counterfeit again? 0:00 Everybody Are you interested in looking at the distilling process and pairing that with key business knowledge such as finance, marketing and operations, then you should check out the online distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville. It's an online program. It can be completed in as little as 15 weeks. It's taught by both of you have all business faculty and corporate fellows. So you're getting real experience from real experts at the most renowned distilleries, companies and startups in the distilling industry. all that's required is a bachelor's degree, go to U of l.me. Slash pursue spirits. 0:34 There is no amount of money that is worth everything that you go through. There isn't. And I say that with extreme confidence. It's not worth it. 0:55 All right, everybody, it is Episode 226 of bourbon pursuit. sued. And we don't have a whole lot of bourbon news to kind of cover. So we'll just kind of give you some updates on what's been happening with inside the ecosystem. And last week was what was considered the great Buffalo Trace barrel frenzy. We talked about on the show with Bo Beckman at Buffalo Trace about how there are barrels that are allocated for the general public that can get access to him. And now as you can imagine, there are thousands and thousands of people going after just a handful of barrels, and you knew it was going to be an intense few moments as soon as it went online. But there was a huge feeling defeat felt across the entire bourbon landscape. When people logged in and within the matter of one second, every single barrel was gone. Yet, persistence paid off and with the help of our Patreon community bourbon pursuit was able to capture to Buffalo Trace barrels and a 1792 foolproof, so we're looking forward to bringing those to our community in 2020. Now speaking of barrel selections, we're out at four roses today, selecting our final They're all from there for 2019. That's going to be five barrels from four roses this year. And we're always humbled and thankful for the opportunity to go and bring our Patreon community members along with us. So thanks to four roses for always being so accommodating and awesome. And a huge shout out to keg and bottle out of San Diego for being our retail partner who makes all this possible. Make sure you go and check them out online at keg and bottle calm that's keg the letter in bottle.com. And you can get whiskey shipped right to your doorstep. And now for some quick history. November 4 celebrated the birth of Isaac wolf Bernheim Born in 1848 Bernheim was a Kentucky businessman who helped cement Louisville as a center for the bourbon industry. Today, heaven Hill bears the name of this American whiskey pioneer on their Bernheim original wheat whiskey as well as on the Bernheim distillery that's located in Louisville, Kentucky. All right now on to today's podcast. Be fair, this isn't our usual light hearted cells. In fact, it gets very intense very quickly. So if you're hoping to listen today and get a few laughs, sure, you're not really going to get any. But if you are a first time listener, please go back and make sure you listen to some of our other episodes because you'll get a feel about how our typical feeling and how we really run an episode is around here. But this episode is really here to serve a lesson for all those out there who dare to venture down this road. We all know that counterfeits exist. And it's actually really hard to tell a difference if they're good enough. And what the new vintage laws in Kentucky and even other states like Washington DC, that can buy bottles from consumers and sell them in retail stores. It means that even buying your bottles from retail stores isn't safe either. So if you're out there and you're looking for high end bourbon and you're willing to drop a lot of money, you really need to look after yourself. I hope this podcast is kind of a wake up call to a lot of the 3:59 producers out there that have highly allocated products on the market. Many enthusiasts believe that it's time to start implementing some form of anti tampering mechanisms or something that can be done with the packaging to start preventing counterfeits, and this podcast should spark some of those conversations of not only what happens when you're caught up in some of these counterfeit rings, but what can you as a producer do to start protecting your consumers? If you're interested in other podcasts that we've released, they're all organized on our website by distillery, bourbon, one on one series and lots more. Go check it out at bourbon pursuit.com. Here's a quick message from Joe over a barrell bourbon, and then you've got Fred Minnick with above the char. 4:45 Hi, this is Joe Beatrice from barrell bourbon. I know I talk a lot about blending here, but we also have a national single barrel program. ask you a local retailer or bourbon club about selecting your own private barrel. Find out more at barrell bourbon, com 5:00 Fred Minnick, and this is above the char, the secondary market as we once knew it is gone, you can no longer go on to a Facebook group and actively trade or buy from someone three states away. There's no getting it back either. And let me tell you why. Because nearly every Attorney General in the United States of America has band together to try and end the secondary market on eBay, Craigslist, Facebook in other places. In a recent letter, a coalition of 46 State Attorney General's asked companies and their respective states to review their current postings for online alcohol sales, ask them to remove illegal postings and develop programming to actually develop programming on their own dime to blog and prevent users from violating state alcohol laws. Now here is a quote from the Attorney General for the state of Oklahoma, Mike Hunter. He says this isn't about violating state laws. It's about protecting the health and well being of Oklahomans illegally sold alcohol thought state licensing laws that ensure the substances aren't tainted and are coming from a reputable vendor. The substances being sold illegally could originate anywhere and could contain deadly substances like methanol, as we work with Facebook, Craigslist and eBay to crack down on the issue. I am encouraging Oklahomans to use extreme caution when purchasing alcohol online and quote, and notice that he used the word online versus secondary social media groups. because let me tell you what this really is. This is a defense of the three tier system. This is the three tier system rising up and saying we don't want online alcohol sales. You seen the likes of drunk minibar, the spirits network and other entities try and make this work. The entire world is moving to online sales. And yet alcohol wants to remain like it's in the 1950s. Now, I have no issues with walking into your local liquor store and buying something. But we have got to move forward into the future. This is no longer 1995. And this is the same group that took down the tobacco industry. And now they're trying to block any kind of online mechanism to sell alcohol. Now what we had going in this in the secondary groups on Facebook, those were, let's say, developed for hobbyists, they don't want that either. So if you are if you live in Maine or Vermont, or one of these other states and you don't get a good allocation of bourbon and you have a buddy in Kentucky or Texas that you want to work with to get a bottle Well, good luck because the United States of America does not wants you to have that. So think about that when you're going to vote for that next state election, bring this up as an issue, see where they stand with alcohol shipping. Most states don't allow it. Most states don't want it because the distributors in those respective states wants to keep a money in their nest egg. Now, I don't sell. I don't buy from people I don't know or liquor stores that I'm not familiar with. But that's not to say that it should be that I believe it should be illegal for someone in Hawaii or Maine or wherever to work with someone in Texas to buy a bottle they can't get in their respective state. But that's the future. The future is going back to the old guard and these attorney generals are leading the charge just like they did against the tobacco industry. Someone's got to stand up to him. Who is it going to be? Might as well be us. If you You want to if you want alcohol shipping in your state, right, your representative, if you want to see Amazon drizzly or mini bar or the spirits network to be able to succeed and to offer you a product that you cannot go and get in your local liquor store, then fight for it. Because that is the only way it's going to happen and no one will listen to us unless you say something. So fight. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Instagram or Twitter. And by the way, did you know I now have a YouTube channel? look me up on YouTube? search my name Fred Minnick. Until next week. Cheers. 9:46 Welcome back to the episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon, Kenny Ryan and Fred together again today. Usually open it up with something light and something airy in today's a little bit different because this is something that has Been a topic that is always been a worrisome issue inside of the the bourbon market inside of the high end really the high end bourbon market as well as Do you know what you're buying? You know, we've we all know that there's online forums, there's, there's websites, there's all kinds of places to go and get allocated whiskey. However, you never ultimately know the source unless you're usually buying it directly from a retail knowing that it got there on the day of delivery happen. It's it's even, it's even hard to even find from retailers nowadays. But when we start going down this path, we start looking at the counterfeit side, is it out there? Does it happen? And of course it does. And that's the that's the truth and the sad reality of what is out there. However, today's episode is really going to expand on that even more to kind of look at what is the harsh reality of somebody that does this and gets caught? 10:55 Yeah, I mean, the the bourbon community is all built on trust, you know, and like We've all had that when we buy bottled like my wife thought I was absolutely crazy just buying random bottles from random people and you know, it was built on trust. So it's, you know, that's something that we don't take lightly. And you know that Yeah, I'm hoping today will be an enlightenment and indeterminate you know, from it happening again, but hopefully enlightened some people to to know what's out there and just, you know, be on your guard for it as well. 11:22 And our guests has informed us that he is under legal scrutiny. And I think a lot of people listening would think you should be in jail. People who commit these kinds of frauds and wine are spinning up to 30 years in jail right now. So I don't know what the status of your legal problems are. But, you know, the fact you're sitting with us tells me that you, you care enough to sit down with us but I want to tell you something We don't feel sorry for you. No one's going to feel sorry for you. Most people listening are going to want you to be in jail. And the only reason why you're on here, the only reason why I agreed with Kenny and Ryan, to have you on here. We're so that we could possibly prevent this from happening again. And I look at this, as it was kind of we discussed previously, like this is the ex con come into sixth grade, telling us to not steal a car, because you'll end up like me. So 12:42 that's what I have to say. 12:43 Absolutely. And so we're going to keep everything anonymous as much as we can, because of the really the severity of the situation. And we don't want to implicate any parties involved. So we're going to be referring to the person that's joining us today as john about as generic as I can. Get. So john, thank you so much for joining us today giving us a little glimpse into really where this happened and kind of and how it sort of spiraled out of control. So kind of talk about first your introduction into like the bourbon market. Was it something that you saw as you actually enjoyed bourbon? Or was it something that you saw as an opportunity for for business isn't like a flipping game or something like that? 13:28 Well, I do enjoy bourbon. And when I got involved in groups, it was on a very low scale, but it ended up to where I was selling quite a few a bit or bottles so it ended up being more of a business type. Not a business where I as I quit my other jobs or anything, but it was a strong hobby to where, you know, I enjoyed, you know, buying and selling bourbon so and I kept up with it quite a bit. So it left for me liking it to longer I got into it, me selling more and more by 14:00 Yeah, it was kind of like, I mean, is it like a drug or a habit? You can't quit like, it's an easy way to I mean, let me wrong like a lot of people flip bottles and they go and do it. You got you get a well or 12 and 40 bucks you sell it for 140 it's, it's an easy it's an easy bedroom and outside that's a very good way to put it. 14:16 It really is. 14:17 Yeah. And I guess if you can scale the operation it makes sense to so kind of talk about the next evolution of it. I mean, was it was it the ability that you know that because you were in these groups for a while, so you kind of understood the dynamic of of how the the bourbon in the secondary the gray market really works? And what was the kind of the phase that that took it to that next step where you started looking at, okay, maybe I could actually counterfeit stuff. 14:50 I guess maybe for some people that it could be easily done. And that's the problem with it is some of these bottles that can be it can be easily done and And that's what really, I guess started on this so easy, you know, no one will ever know. And and that's what kind of started really right then in there. 15:12 What were some of the things that you thought made it were easy just like how the products are labeled or sealed or? 15:18 Yes, the ceiling. Gotcha. Correct. Exactly. And not on all bottles just on certain ones particular like guys. Oh, 15:24 yeah, yeah. Why are you? 15:28 Why are you in jail? 15:31 That's a good question. 15:35 I guess I don't really have an answer for that exactly. on why I'm not. I'm not saying I shouldn't be. 15:42 turn yourself in. Did you speak with cops? No, 15:47 no, I've never spoken with cops. 15:50 So when you were when you were caught? 15:54 Who you are caught by someone within the community? 15:57 Yes, that's correct. 15:58 I mean, that's That's kind of normal that we've seen. I mean, that says, there's there's teams of people out there that do they take inventory of Van Winkle lot numbers on Pappy 23 is they look at inventory of of those things. And it gets kind of kind of talking about the day or that progression that happened when you got caught. Did you remember what that looked like? Or how that I guess you could say that the chips started falling. There was a couple bottles in a row. I think that looks suspicious. That led back to me, and that raise some concern. And that's how it all started. That's when they start I guess maybe investigating as far as like previous sales of that. Now, so you know quite a bit of bottles in the past. And of course, the problem with that is is that any bottle that ever sold, that raised concern as to where all the models so you know, we're fraudulent. 16:56 So 16:58 So when when you When you were caught, yes. did it become public in our communities? Yes. At that point, why did you not turn yourself into the authorities? 17:10 I guess I was just trying to stay as low key as possible. I was a nervous wreck at the time. First time, I was really been in trouble. I really didn't know what to do. You know, I mean, I really didn't. I was a total loss as to what to do. I was kind of honestly taking a lot of the People's advice that caught me, and I'll be honest, they got me through a lot. 17:36 So the people who caught you who helped you? 17:39 Yes. Who because I helped me and also because I did refund money, you know, to the people that got fraudulent bottles. So and I went through each bottle with them, and told them which ones were and which ones where do you 17:53 think it was a like an immediate feeling of remorse or was it like, I just feel really bad that I got caught? At least when it first started, like, I know, I know, we can progress until today because it's been it's been years since then. But when the days first started when, you know, the messages started coming, the email started coming. I mean, was it kind of like everything's starting to really kind of spiral out of control that point? Oh, 18:20 yes. Very quickly starts falling out of control. Yes. Without a doubt it If 18:26 so, talk about some of the the effects that you kind of saw on the very, very first days because we all know that online communities are they're very bullish right I mean, that's that's just the the nature of what it is anybody can hide behind a keyboard and say a lot of stuff. And the same exact time people can do damage to online reputations are very, very quickly so so kind of talk about what that that process was when I first started mounting messages that how to receive threatening messages whether their bottles were real or not. was, was unbelievable. I mean, I received tons of messages. And actually, a lot of the people that were doing, believe it or not the most complaining and threats or, or people that have never even so from in the past, because I guess you're kind of selling from like a community, you know, I'm just one person, it's the whole community that goes goes out after you. And so it doesn't matter if I had sold to them or not I was getting 19:27 whether it be threats, messages, phone calls, whatever you from 19:32 everybody. I mean, you know, 19:35 I mean, you essentially took what was this beautiful hobby, and something that we all enjoyed, and you took advantage of people. You took advantage of people. So I mean, in this day and age, of course, you're going to get a lot of commentary for people who didn't. Absolutely, absolutely. So I mean, did you want me What did you expect? I 19:57 did expect it you know, because I had so So many bottles in the past. Now, again, I didn't really know totally what to expect, but I figured I'd be getting quite a few messages. I didn't know to what degree and it came in at a large degree that not that I had thought to be honest with you. But again, I, I didn't know exactly what to expect. I just didn't. 20:19 Do you remember, the amount of the quantity of kind of counterfeit bottles that you had created? 20:25 The exact amount? 20:26 I mean, not the exact amount, but I mean, some sort of round about number, you know, it was probably around 20:32 3435, something like that. But the amount of inquiries that I got, were, well over two to 300. 20:41 How long have you been? How long you been selling before the counterfeits? Oh, at least 20:47 two, maybe three years. 20:49 And so you kind of build up? I would say two to three, you built up a level of trust with buyers and that's 20:54 why I entered the community. That's correct. Yes. And that was the hardest thing for me. 20:58 Yeah. It really was. Even if you sold one fake bottle 200 messages is nothing 21:05 is in I mean, you know, all it takes is one. I mean, all it takes is one for you to destroy the trust, you know, and I mean, it can be 10 2100 but I mean, if it's just that one, it doesn't matter, you've broken all that trust. So it's not even worth doing why it's not because it goes back to what I said. Then every other body so people are going to raise the red flag rightfully so as to whether the bottle was real or not. So 21:31 I think one thing our listeners be interested in, was it ever was it ever a van Winkle bottle? But do you ever counterfeit? No, 21:38 no, no, I never. I never did like the high end bottles like two to three. No, no. 21:45 You figure like I'm just trying to think of it from a like a mind aspect you might have gone through that you stick in somewhere like in the middle of the road. Something with like, clear pair of film or clear things that are 21:56 easy to model was like, you know, maybe 340 Hundred average, but I never did the high end stuff. 22:04 So, I'm with you on that. Okay. So I guess let's let's kind of progress it on a little bit now. You know, we've we've harped on a little bit of kind of where it started. In the days that it started happening, kind of talk about a few of the weeks following from there. Because, you know, when, when news surfaces, something like this, it immediately becomes a huge issue with inside of the community. And people are always talking about it. And I'm assuming that in the weeks following, there were more inquiries more emails, that kind of kind of also talked about not only just the emails and inquiries, but like, damage caused to like anything else that was surrounded by you, whether it's a family or anything like that kind of talk about those short term impact that happened. Well, I mean, my business suffered absolutely tremendously from it. 23:00 My family received threatened phone calls. The office that I worked at they received threatening phone calls because obviously in this day and age, you can google someone and find out pretty much anyone about them. So what's a threatening phone call? What did they say? I had some people threatening, you know, come down to be mass, you know, near my wife received many threatening calls as well. messages as well. My officers did the same thing. In that went on for quite some time. And that was very difficult. Because I wasn't the only one affected at that point. It was the people that surrounded me, not just family, but even friends. 23:36 What was it like facing your family net, having them know that what you had done? I was 23:42 the hardest thing ever? Yeah, the hardest thing I've ever done, and I would never want to go through that again. 23:48 Are you still with your wife? 23:49 I am. I am. Luckily, I mean, she stood by my side. I'm very fortunate for that. Yes, I am. 23:58 cause problems 24:00 The business suffered tremendously. I really did. And the bad thing is it wasn't just for me. It was for other people that I worked with. And that was the hardest thing because they weren't involved in this whatsoever. And that was very difficult, very difficult. 24:15 So, beyond that, you know, we talked about a business suffering, you know, businesses, they, 24:22 you know, a family can build something and it can be generational. However, sometimes you can rebuild a business, kind of talk about your family at this point, as Ryan kind of alluded to, and must been hard to face them but what was what was their initial reaction? What was their thought process of like, how do we remedy this situation? What What kind of advice do they give you? 24:47 Well, first of all, to cut to come clean. Admit when I did and they try to remediate as best as possible by coming cleaning back, coming forward and paying back anybody that received a different view. Which I did, you know, and that took some time to go through everything because we went through each individual one and and that's the process that we started with. 25:08 So So where was everybody defrauded? Like hundred percent paid in full kind of? 25:13 Yes, that's correct, yes. But they receive so many inquiries because, you know, there were other bottles that I saw that you know, the more legitimate but people were still asking and rightfully so. 25:23 So you understand how it's difficult to believe that you refunded 100% Yes, I do, given because we have no we have no way to validate that. 25:38 What they did was they went to eBay where I got the models and they went through all the accounts, and we went through each bottle individually from them on what I purchased. 25:52 eBay was eBay was the following where you 25:55 access to my accounts, I can passwords and everything. 25:58 So it was eBay your own source of acquiring empty bottles 26:02 yes 26:03 it was so I guess that kind of always goes back to the message we always say to a never sell empty bottles on eBay because this is this is this is this is reality that's another thing I did to any open bottles that I had it took a video and you know broke every single one of them 26:22 which was quite a few and I went and took a video and broke the law so 26:27 after you were caught that's correct 26:28 yes afterwards 26:32 so what would you say to someone like it to I guess to for them to check their purchases like what is it what are some like easy signs that someone can like tell a fake not just from tracing it back to an eBay sale but maybe like if they're looking at seals or anything like what's what's some designs that like Something's fishy or I would say maybe the color 26:54 will be one. The color of the vibrancy if it matches the probably the best thing because Some of them, it would be hard to tell on the seal. So just really would be, but the color would be the number one thing that I would say. 27:09 without tasting it. I'm saying, 27:10 you know, Ryan, I've spot a lot. I've spotted a lot of fakes my career. In fact, you know, I validate a lot of older bottles and, and unfortunately, 27:21 john is not a good person to ask how to spot a fake because as soon as he's the guy who has been counterfeiting, and as soon as that heats out his words out there on the street of like, how you spot it, you know, the other ones trying to fix it. Yeah, and that's the problem with counterfeiting. It's a fucking virus. You were bourbon fraud one point now. Now we're a bourbon fraud 3.0 and like, what you were doing that completely discounted now to like how to catch something because everyone's everyone done it, but you did it. And I still, I still have not felt the remorse. I hear that like this happened. And that happened. I hear a lot of regrets. But you took away a community's innocence and a lot of ways. I mean, sure, we could have all assumed that this stuff was happening. But you did it. And I still don't feel like I hear the remorse from you. 28:26 You know, the hardest thing for me was I built up a lot of trust and all that within those groups. And it killed me knowing that I broke that because I built up a lot of good friendships and things. And it was very hard for me to deal with that part because I do I do care about people. That doesn't show that but I mean, I'm saying to break all that and all the friendships was was very hard for me. I mean, it really was. I mean, that was one of the most difficult things that I went through, is because just people look at you. Obviously you You know differently and I hated that because I do care about what people think probably too much. But I do care about my image and what people think about you know, and I hated that I broke all that trust with the people that I worked with and so for so long whether they received a fraudulent bottle or not, it doesn't matter because I was still at that view. So 29:21 what did you refill with? 29:25 Well, or mainly, 29:27 you were refilling with Weller? That's correct. That's not what I was expecting to hear expecting here so I can tuck Tavern or something 29:36 well or not the one away but the 29:39 the special reserve yes 29:40 actually special reserved Yes. 29:43 So I guess let's let's keep on going down No, Fred wants to really feel the remorse you but I kind of want to keep going down this path of so we we've touched on the weeks afterwards. Let's Let's touch on one year after you know, usually anything What happens in these communities? It's, it's it's breaking news for about a week. And then after that the dust settles and we wait for the next big thing to happen. That's just typically the the cycle, the ebb and flow of, of what happens. So a year later, sort of where is where's your head at? Where's your your business? Like, is it still down? And is it still in a rebuilding phase? Like what? Oh, and what what sort of consequences? We're still feeling absolutely 30:27 still rebuilding phase, that's for sure. And I mean, you know, still if I go out, I'll always have I feel like that perception. So he's the guy that defrauded people who are in there's no way of me, you know, there's nothing. 30:40 You feel like you're permanently tagged with that 30:42 term. Really? Damn. Yeah. And there's, I don't think there's anything I can do about that. Unfortunately. You know, and I understand that. I understand why, because I broke that trust, you know, and that trust product can never be regained. And I understand that and that's very difficult for me. So and it's hot, honestly. It's hard to live with. I mean, it really is. It's hard for me to live with you. There's not a day goes by where I haven't thought about. And I mean that when I say that there isn't a day going by there isn't a day 31:11 where I haven't thought about it. 31:13 Yeah. I mean, I would imagine it has to be tough. It has to be tough trying to go through this and trying to it's not worth it. It's not even establish new racial mean in your in a city. Ryan, we talked about all time. It's a little town. Everybody knows everybody. Yeah. 31:30 Exactly. And it's not worth it. The amount that you suffer the amount you lose the mountain, the people that are suffered that are closest to you. It doesn't even come close. doesn't even come close. 31:43 As some additional questions I want to ask you, okay. Did you ever talk to any other counterfeiters? 31:49 No. No. At the time you were doing it Was it fun? I wouldn't classify it as fun now. I would not classify it as fun 32:00 How would you classify it 32:02 would classify it as? 32:05 greed 32:07 as well as more money? That's what I would classify this 32:12 in one of our never was it fun 32:14 when we go down that greed path? 32:17 You know, I guess, I guess this is how all criminals get caught is they think it's too easy was Was that your process or thinking of? Well, first of all, he's not a criminal because he hasn't. He has not been. He's evaded in the car. He just admitted that he never talked to the cops or anything, he committed a crime. But, you know, you know, that's, that's a different story. But you know, again, go ahead, but I just can I just want to be very clear here. You know, you could always turn yourself in for what you did, alright. can always do that. We've agreed to not you know, keep this anonymous but you know, when we When you first reached out to us, I had this big long email about how to make up for it. And it started with turning yourself in. But to me, that's kind of where a lot of the conversation starts. 33:13 So 33:15 So what led to that? I guess greed like in needing or was it? Did you need the money? Or are you just wanting the money or 33:26 there are more craft distilleries popping up around the country now more than ever. So how do you find out the best stories and the best flavors? Rock house whiskey club, it's a whiskey of the Month Club and they are on a mission uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer rackhouses box ship out every two months to 40 states and rackhouses October box there featuring a distillery with an interesting ingredient water from the Bull Run watershed that has been protected by Congress since the 1870s. 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A cowboy walk into a bar saying give me a whiskey in the bartender slamming down a bottle, a bottle of 291 Colorado whiskey, find a bottle near you at 291 Colorado whiskey calm, right it like you stole it, drink it like you own it. Live fast. Drink responsibly. 35:04 So what led to that? I guess greed like in needing or was it? Did you need the money? Or are you just wanting the money or 35:17 I needed the money for 35:21 a habit that I developed, I guess. Yeah. So I guess I could put it that way. What was the habit? 35:33 addiction habit. 35:36 So you weren't like in clear thinking, clear mind 35:39 that was addiction and 35:42 then I wasn't clear about it all out. Now. My only thoughts with addiction. I mean, and that's the only thing that that time that was my only thing on the hit man. I don't even care about the continent and then it was all about the nation. That's what it was. That's how it started. 36:03 Right? So have you been clean? Have you been sober enough? Or? Oh, yes, 36:06 yes. Okay, now I help kids now, was it everything was 36:10 that the cat getting caught the catalyst to kind of do that? Or was that the okay. 36:16 And I feel so much better now. I mean, but, and that's why I try to give back by helping kids and all that. And that's been helpful to me myself to do that, you know? Because now that I've been through it, I know what it's like. And that was very hard within itself. Last, yep. 36:41 And so, you know, you had reached out to us about, you know, helping you in regards of, of something that that we had in, you know, we obliged because Ryan was looking at this as an opportunity for giving people you know, opportunities of second chances and everything like that, and then You know, this is kind of how we came here to, to kind of talk about this and have this sort of post mortem of, of really how your life can almost become actually devastated and ruined. By doing this by just a little bit of greed by thinking it's it's too easy and just continuing going down that path. So we're now we're now a little bit for like, a few years removed now. Are there still impacts that you're still seeing? Or is it is it is it started to kind of fizzle down now a little bit and you're able to start moving on slowly fizzle down. 37:37 It's been a slow process. But I mean, it's taken quite some time. And, you know, even a few years past, it's taken quite some time. You know, the effects are still there. Or they were as great as they were a couple years ago. No, but they're still there. Hmm. So do you're probably always will be. I mean, really, they probably always will be. And I Something that people got to think about that probably are when they're doing it is that it doesn't just affect you in a short run infection, the long run to it doesn't just affect you 38:13 talk about a little bit with your parents or your other family members that when this was you know, even years later have they have they been able to look past it? Or are they still kind of holding it holding that in the back of their head? 38:30 You know, honestly, my family has grown to look past it. Now that I've gotten help and everything and the way I handled it. I mean, they still were very upset. I'm not trying to say they weren't, you know, because they were but you know, they've grown to look past it in kind of like a second chance kind of thing. 38:52 Even though they were affected. How much whiskey did you sell? How much revenue did you make? You made a profit or gross 39:00 Gross in a year 39:02 or a year total what 39:06 the gross was maybe, let's just say 75 75,000. That's not that net. Obviously, there's a big difference there, you know, but I would say that would be the gross. 39:18 So that's a, for a lot of people. That's a year's wage. 39:22 Now, the net is much smaller than that. But yeah, sure. 39:26 So, you know, as we as we kind of start looking at wrapping this up a little bit, you know, I kind of want to also talk about because you're a family man. 39:36 You have kids as well. 39:39 You want to you want to kind of try to anonymize a little story a little bit and kind of look at this was kind of like the breaking point as well, at least where we got involved, of really how this started affecting even your children's lives. 39:55 Yeah, and that was one of the toughest things. You know, during this and you know, my kids They had to look up Google apparent saying, and, you know, during that the classmates, you know, we're all there. And they saw my son, and my name as well, too. And he got, he received a very hard time from it. And when that was just crushed me, I mean, it just crushed me. Because obviously he didn't have nothing you know what to do with this whatsoever and to see your son being effective, who's young, you know, I mean, it's very hard. That's, that's the hardest thing. 40:30 There is real heavy. He explained to him what happened or like, not to the fullest degree, you know, 40:35 right. No, no, I did not. He's too young, I believe. Sure. Now, so sure. 40:43 You think one day I'll find out? 40:45 Probably. Yeah, probably. And that's the day I have to sit down and have a talk with a very hard talk. I mean, it'll be a teaching lesson, but still be a very hard talk. This is something very ashamed of, you know, I mean I'm not I'm not proud of this I'm extremely ashamed of it. I mean, you know, it can't go back in time obviously you know, this is one of these things where God I wish he could 41:14 so as we as we kind of finish this up and kind of kind of give people one last sort of message on if you if you think that you're going on this path and you can we're we're all bourbon enthusiasts here we know what bottles look like you've already talked about being able to acquire some of these bottles and most of them if it's just cheap plastic stuff that goes over top of it, you can get a you can get a hair dryer and get them blow Blow gun or heat gun and you can you can shrink wrap stuff pretty easily. Talk about it people that are out there thinking about it even just remotely thinking about it, like what's the what's the, the end state of where this is going to go to 41:57 people thinking about it, one you're not just defrauding that one person unifying the whole entire group for one. So you're not just going to have one person upset, you're going to have a whole entire group coming after you. And on top of that, there's so many things that can be damaged with your business, your family, your co workers and things like that. And there is no amount of money, there is no amount of money that is worth everything that you go through. There isn't an NSA that with extreme confidence, it's not worth it. It's not worth it whatsoever. Not even the first bottle because that's all it takes us one. That's all it takes. And from someone that's done it, I mean, I just assure you, whoever's thinking about doing this, the last thing you want to do, it's the last thing you want to do. The repercussions are unbelievable. And is extremely hard, even years after it is. So not just from a business point, but I mean, you know, friendships, I mean, it's hard all the way around. It really is. So It's not worth the money. 43:02 And I guess one thing I forgot to ask you, you know, speaking with friendships, I'm sure you had friends outside of outside of bourbon and stuff like that, too. What was what was the reality of the situation? When they came to find out about stuff like this? They were shocked, because 43:15 they never saw that coming from me. 43:18 You know, I actually have a good friend who grew up with you, really? And he couldn't believe it. And that's Yeah. 43:26 And I'll say, very difficult to, I'll say this. You said it's not worth the money. 43:33 What if you didn't get caught? What if, what if you didn't get caught? Hmm. And suddenly, it's not 75,000 at 100 grand and it's 200,000. And now you can buy something else. What if you didn't get caught? Would have been worth the money then. 43:51 In my situation, if I wouldn't have been thought, I don't know if I'd be here today. 43:57 And I really don't 44:00 Because that's how bad of a problem I had. 44:05 So that's what I can say with my personal self that I really don't think I would have been. So this was almost a blessing. That idea is as weird as that sounds, but I'm just, I'm just being honest with you. It really was. Because I wouldn't have stopped that addiction thing. You know, it would have had it taken something like this for me too, because that's how powerful it is. So, with my situation, that's what I can say with that. 44:36 Understand, but I hope you can also understand that myself and probably thousands of listeners, don't feel sorry for you. Like I said, from what I understand that 44:46 and I don't and I don't blame them. And I completely understand that. 44:50 There's a lot of people who try to use their addiction or whatever happened to them as excuses for what they did. And I've seen that time and time again. And you know, the fact is, you know, what do you look like in 510 15 years? JOHN? When when the the heat's off? Yeah. What do they look like then? Are you maybe getting back in the game? Are you going to maybe try to counterfeit again? You say no now, but 45:23 there's no way I would ever even remotely consider getting this again. And I mean, that 45:30 not even remotely. I mean, I will never sell a legitimate nothing, a bottle of bourbon again, I don't want anything to do with bourbon after this, and I mean that. And I mean, it's been a few years, and I haven't and you won't see it in a few years before. That there's a lot of confidence in the world. I don't want to go through anything like this again. I'm not even legitimately not even not even legit at me. I don't want any I don't want to be involved in it at all. I'm gonna hold you to that. 46:00 goes to places like in. And for me, this is like where the agreement for anonymity would end is like, if you're caught selling 46:14 counterfeits again, 46:16 we blame you. I mean, 46:18 how people are human nature is they got away with something, they got paid or whatever. The heat's on them goes away, and then they come back to it. 46:30 With dance in nature, I mean, 46:33 you'll notice that I guess in the years to come, I guess that's all I can say. But there's no question about it with what I've been through. It doesn't even cross my mind. There's other ways she can make money. And I'm legitimately there's other ways you can make money. And that's the last thing I'm going to do. I mean, I mean, it's not even consideration. There's no way and I mean, legitimately as well, too. I don't want no sales whatsoever with me. I have done in you will not see me do it in the future. And you know what, if you ever were to which you won't destroy me, you know, but the second half of the second half? 47:14 Well, I know one person around here that'll keep you keep you on. So 47:19 please, please keep up. I mean, you know. 47:22 Yeah. So john, I do want to say thank you again for, you know, having a having the courage to come on. I know this is not easy. It's definitely not easy, and it's definitely not easy putting a position like this. However, our real goal with today was to help not only just bring a story that's never been heard before, but also to give other people the opportunity to understand what is the real ramifications of this type of activity. And when a community can really come down on you and really destroy not only just not only just a reputation, but Your family life and everything that comes in it's it's not just a week. It's It's It's a lifetime. And that's really what what it boils down to. 48:08 And I want to I want to go to this game, can you keep saying like the community did not destroy the choices? And I hope you I hope you agree with this. The choices you made, destroyed your reputation and your relationship. That's wrong. Unity did not do that. Right. You're exactly right choice. 48:25 You're exactly right. It was only me. You're 100%. Correct. And I appreciate you having me. All right. And I hope I could at least fence a couple of people out there, you know, that. Don't even think about it. So I really do. 48:41 Again, thank you, at least from our side to say, telling your story. I think it's again, valuable for people out there just to know it. And really, as I said, what the ramifications are. So if you want to learn more about bourbon pursuit, what we're doing next one of the hot topics we're hitting on, make sure you Follow us on social media Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, as well as Fred medic, Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. You got the curation desk you've got Patreon you've got on the for all the lighter side all the lighter subjects a 49:11 little bit lighter in here you're usually 49:14 yes this is this is a very serious subject today and 49:17 we know that given that it was a I mean for it I totally get where you're coming from you know because it it is a trust community and the Trust has been broken and I'm you know, and maybe I'm taken advantage of but I do believe in redemption and I will just say you know you only get one chance and don't screw it up and and you know, Fred one of their more so I can see the pain you know, and I can feel it I feel the tension so in especially when dealing with families of people that are thinking about it, I can I can tell you that this man has been through some with some some emotional stuff with people and and I just hope that never happens again with anyone or you and I'm glad we got Fred to keep me in 49:58 check. So Fred, I respect questions I agree with what you said seriously. So I really do 50:03 well I am I've been around a bit and I've seen a lot of 50:10 lot of people say things and you know repeat their actions I 50:14 could I could understand 50:15 you know, words are easy for sure I do I definitely do believe in like the forgiven forget. But to me that's not just like a given to me that's you got to earn it. For sure. And for me, this is this is a really nice first step for you earning that from from me and perhaps other people in the community. And I would say you know, a next step could be speaking to local authorities, because whether you whether you end up doing time for this or you enter a plea deal in which you help you help spot fakes or something and then community because fakes are rampant in the entire industry. You can't walk through a major city without seeing a fake Pappy Van Winkle on, on display in a bar. There are bars all the time refilling their stuff. And you know something, most of the people who are in charge of like going around and making sure that the taxes are paid and people aren't serving under age, they don't care about that stuff. But that stuff is defrauding our community as much as you are. And for me, if you want that sweet redemption, if you want to be forgiven, if you want people to forget about it, you gotta do something to get the community you know, to support the community because right now the bourbon community is is hanging on by a thread with a lot of these lot of these fakes. Again, I said you are one point now there's been numerous since a lot of them are Stealing straight from the distillery. And at the end of the day, you know, I'm genuinely I genuinely am coming to the point where I will not buy certain bottles unless I can validate them all the way to the original purchase. That's where I am right now because I know how bad it is in the market. And it all unfortunately started with you. And so you take on more of more of an anger, more of a grievance for me, then I think, you know, if you were if, if you were like the fourth or fifth guy, 52:40 that I respect that and understand where I'm coming from, I can't argue that. I mean, I respect that. 52:46 I'm glad you do. And I hope you I hope you consider my step two very seriously. Okay. All right. Thank you, Rhonda and close it out. 52:58 See you next time. 53:00 With attention was tight in there so yeah, honestly it was yeah not 53:02 the best host for these types 53:05 neither I usually I usually like to give it it lightened area 53:09 we get we get but no it is a definitely a serious subject yeah for it I'm glad you could ask the tough questions because I'm not so tough 53:17 It's okay. Somebody somebody hears keep us real. But then again, thank you for everybody that was able to make it here today to be able to talk about this all the team involved and make sure that you stick around listen to bourbon pursuit next week, because we've always got new fun topics. So with that, we'll see you all next week. 53:35 Cheers. Cheers. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The Bourbon Community Roundtable is back with talk about Turkey, Rare Breed Rye and more rye whiskey coming to market. We then look at the landscape and ask ourselves “is bourbon priced fairly in today’s market?” because we often get blamed for calling bourbon undervalued. We wrap the show talking about the Jim Beam AirBNB as a potential PR stunt. Show Partners: The University of Louisville now has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/pursuespirits. At Barrell Craft Spirits, they explore whiskey in an entirely new way. The team selects and blends barrels of whiskey into something greater than the sum of its parts. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Distillery 291 is an award winning, small batch whiskey distillery located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Learn more at Distillery291.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about blending. What do you think about Wild Turkey's new online videos called Talk Turkey with Matthew McConaughey? Episode 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM3duQSIU3U Let's talk Rare Breed Rye. Do you think Elijah Craig will come out with barrel proof rye? What about Elijah Craig Rye not being released in some states? Can distilleries really come out with more expressions? Who here thinks bourbon has been over or undervalued in its category and why? Do we need that million dollar bottle for bourbon? Who here thinks we are a problem? Let's discuss some research on the growth of American whiskey. Report from ResearchAndMarkets.com: https://www.researchandmarkets.com/reports/4849286/american-whiskey-market-by-type-bourbon?utm_source=BW&utm_medium=PressRelease&utm_code=f832dw&utm_campaign=1311293+-+American+%2416.8+Billion+Whiskey+Market+to+2025%3a+Focus+on+Bourbon%2c+Tennessee%2c+Rye+Whiskey&utm_exec=chdo54prd What do you think about renting Jim Beam’s Historic Kentucky Home on Airbnb? https://www.travelandleisure.com/hotels-resorts/vacation-rentals/jim-beam-bourbon-historic-kentucky-home-airbnb Thanks to Blake from bourbonr.com and Jordan from BreakingBourbon.com for joining. 0:00 Hey everybody. If you have a bachelor's degree and live anywhere in the United States, there's now a way for you to take your bourbon education to the next level. The distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville is an online program that can be completed in as little as 15 weeks and will prepare you for the business side of the spirits industry. It's offered by the AA CSP accredited college of business. And this certificate was developed in partnership with industry experts to be one of a kind and it's going to prepare you for your next adventure. Learn more about this online program at U of l.me. Slash pursue spirits. 0:37 Although I like Justin Deering's comment of all you need is slack discord, Microsoft Teams in Skype to communicate these days, all of which are like for I don't have it all. So I feel like I'm even more behind the times 0:50 because I thought it was like I don't think your broadband can handles 1:07 Welcome back, everybody. It is Episode 225 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your heroes Kenny and the past few weeks we've been covering a lot of recent bourbon news. So this week there isn't too much to cover but there is one new release and that is that the master distiller of Michter's Dan McKee as well as their master of maturation, Andrea Wilson have announced the release of their 20 year old bourbon, the 20 1920 year bourbon will be bottled at 114.2 proof and will have an MSRP of $700 Now this one is pretty coveted by a lot of affluent Burton people out there. So good luck this hunting season trying to find it. Well, that's really all the industry news for now, because the roundtable is where we're going to discuss some of the latest happenings and as usual with tonight's topics, you will find links to the articles in our show notes. But we need to talk a little bit about bourbon pursuit news lately. So let's kind of talk about what's happening with that. 2:00 pursuit series is moving at a rapid pace. This week we sold out of Episode 17 in record time. Of course, this really wasn't a surprise to us because this was our privately labeled will it distillery barrel of their own product which is the first NDP private label that has ever happened happening under their pursuit series brand. And we've also opened up Episode 12 and 13 to the public and you can purchase those today by going to pursuit spirits.com with seal box as our online retail partner these bottles can be shipped to a good percentage of states around the country in to your doorstep. There are less than 50 bottles of Episode 12 and only 30 bottles of Episode 13 remaining so go and check it out. We're also now hitting retail stores in Kentucky. The first private barrel that was selected by Justin's House of bourbon has been delivered and is now available on their floor as well as on their tasting bar. This is Episode 14 and I remember when Ryan and I were tasting this barrel, it just hit Like a mouthful of Captain Crunch berries. And if you are in or around the Lexington area Ryan and I will be at Justin's House of bourbon on November 5 at six o'clock pm eastern to talk about this release and pursuit spirits just more in depth. You can get more information about this event on our Facebook page with the link in our show notes. And we really hope to see you there. But we're still not done yet. Episode 15 was a barrel that we selected that will be hitting shelves across Kentucky starting next week. This barrel show notes talk about some of the most pronounced flavors that we got out of it. And it's a chocolate cherry pound cake. Heidelberg who is our distributor has told us that they started filling out purchase orders this week. So you will begin to see it pop up on shelves across liquor stores as well as on premise locations in Kentucky. So if you're a retailer and you'll be carrying our bourbon send us a message we can give you a shout out on some of our social pages. Well, that's all let's go ahead and get on with the show. Here's Joe from barrel bourbon. Then you've got Fred Minnick with above the char. 4:03 I'm Joe Beatrice, founder of barrell craft spirits, we explore whiskey in an entirely new way. My team at barrel craft spirits, selects and blends barrels of whiskey into something greater than the sum of their parts. Pick up a bottle today. 4:17 I'm Fred Minnick, and this is above the charm. This week's idea comes from Patreon subscriber Andrew Polonsky. He asks, What do you think of all the blending compared to single barrels and small batch? Now, Andrew, this is a great question and you obviously have been reading my work for some time to know that this will spark a real passion and me to talk about the history of the word, blend. See the word blend and American whiskeys always been a dirty term and it goes back to the 1800s when blenders were adding things like tobacco spit and prune juice, and these people were called rectifier and they were working with wholesalers and putting it out on the street people would buy it. Doctors would even prescribe it and They would find that their patients would not get well. So that led to the effort of the bottle and Bond Act where distillers lobbied so bourbon consumers could be protected. Doctors could have a guarantee that they were serving their prescribing their patients legitimate, pure 100 proof whiskey, but the Canadian whiskey blunders did not like it at all. At that time, the Canadians were coming into America starting to sell their whiskey for the cheap knocking out the straight distillers and some of the people that we know is like George t stag, EH Taylor. And so there started this feud at that time between blenders both American and Canadian and straight whiskey distillers. Now this would continue well, for the next 5060 years after prohibition, distillers didn't have a lot of liquid to play with because they had sold it all on the medicinal market during Prohibition or they didn't have The opportunity to distill again so there was not a lot of supply. So the distillers, what they would do is they would blend a little straight whiskey in with a grain neutral spirit the and blend was not good. The distillers could not wait to get away from the blended whiskey and start putting out their age doc. And as soon as they did that they started moving away from the word blend. And then the Canadians would actually try to come out with like a bottled and bond at that time. And that led to a little bit of a trade dispute between the United States and Canada. But that's another story maybe another above the char. But at that time between the 1940s and 1970s, the American distillers kind of banded together to eliminate the word blend from the American whiskey vocabulary, they replaced the word blend with mingling or marrying barrels together. So the actual action of bringing all these barrels together for a badging process, really should be called blending. But because the American distillers did not like that term, because it was associated with the rocket stuff of the 1930s and the piss poor whiskey of the 1800s that they decided to completely eradicate it from the distilleries. Now, we move forward to present day. And you have brands like high West and barrel bourbon, who don't actually have all the stocks at their disposal, but they're buying them from wholesalers and barrel brokers, and they take these barrels and they blend them with other barrels from other states and other distilleries creating unique flavor profiles, and they have absolutely turned the business upside down and made the term blending a positive term again, but here's why. They're not blending in green neutral spirit, what they are blending our straight whiskeys to these whiskies that are at least two years old, and they haven't been adding flavoring or coloring. So it's as pure as something that is bottled in bond. It's just coming from various distilleries. Now, given that American whiskey always has shenanigans. I know at some point during this wonderful trend, this resurrection of the term blend that we're seeing, we're going to have someone who takes advantage of it and start pumping out great neutral spirit coloring it and calling it an award winning blend. So be prepared for that next wave. As soon as someone in this business create something good. Someone comes around and ruins it. And that's this week's above the char. If you have an idea, reach out to me on Patreon, just like Andrew did. That's Patreon at bourbon pursuit. Until next week, cheers 8:51 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon, Kenny, Ryan and Fred all back here on bourbon community. Round Table number 38. We're back, fellas. How's it going? 9:03 Whoo. All right. Yeah. 9:05 Yeah, that's what we haven't done this in a while because the last time we did this was on stage at bourbon and beyond. So it's, it's been a few weeks, so it's good to see everybody once again. So Fred, how you been? You finally decompress since then? 9:17 I feel like I've done like 10 other events since bourbon and beyond. So it just went from one to another. I feel like Bill Belichick just I'm on to Cincinnati. 9:30 Cincinnati need some help. Actually. 9:32 They're awful, aren't they? Oh 9:34 my god. It's it's a terrible, terrible season. But again this year, I mean, it's at this point. I don't really think anybody's like really upset. They're just kind of like, it's fun to go pay for $12 beers and watch our team lose and we'll see it again next week. 9:48 Well, me it's a it's a hard day to be a Bengals fan. And if you're a San Francisco fan, holy cow. look good. 9:58 Yeah. So far. It seems like you paid the lot of tension in this so you big on fantasy. 10:03 Yeah, yes, I'm hard. 10:08 I'm not doing very well this year. 10:10 No, I'm I think I'm only won two games so I'm doing pretty terrible without you Ryan. 10:15 Well, I'm four and three, but I'm on a four game winning streak so and I'm looking at my score right now I'm down by two but I have James Conner playing right now. So go Steelers. 10:28 Well, one thing I'll tell you that I did this year Kenny with a friend of mine, Steve Zubin, who is a national radio personality, and Paul charging and who's a professional fantasy kind of Guru. We started league together like a small league we call it whiskey League and the entry bought the entry was a bottle of whiskey. And the every week somebody gets chopped, and at the end of the season, the what the winner will get. Every bottle of whiskey. I was out in week two So 11:02 least you weren't dead last. I mean, that's that would have been embarrassing. You know, week one. 11:08 Yeah, that's a tough one. Bad. Alright, so let's go ahead. We've only got two of the people here that you've all heard before. But you know, Blake Jordan, let's go ahead. Let's hear about your fantasy lineups as well. 11:21 The only fantasy lineup you need is you know, we're going to call it Minchew mania here in Jacksonville. You know, five time Rookie of the week. How many minute five time that could have been exaggeration, but uh, no, I don't play much fantasy football. It busy playing real football. You know, as a former NFL tied in I don't like to get out there and play fantasy leagues. No, it's just never want to get into but yeah, good time of year. And also I'm Blake from bourbon er. And thanks for joining us tonight. That's BOURBONR Find me on all the social medias if you haven't heard it 38 times by now. Now you got it. Time to spell it out. 12:03 That new listener out there if you haven't heard it, here it is this Sure Sure. All right, Jordan, go ahead. Sure. This is Jordan from breaking bourbon, one of the three guys friends breaking bourbon. Go to the site for the latest reviews and weekly calendar updates. Find us all the socials and patreon at breaking bourbon. My fantasy lineup is not doing so hot this year. So I think I'm three and four hopefully going to be for for after tonight. We'll see how the Juju does. 12:30 For sure. Alright, so let's go ahead we'll kick it off. Start with our topics. And you know, the first one is, it can't be that, you know, crazy to think about because bourbon really doesn't move a needle or something really doesn't happen without marketing involved. And we kind of look at the way that burden marketing is kind of progressed over the probably the past two to five years. I remember I think was a post that Wade had showed on Facebook just I think it was earlier this year. But I think it was not more than five years ago. There is on Buffalo Trace they used to have like the bourbon babe of the day or the bourbon babe of the month, and you could actually go and vote for women and like bikinis and stuff like that. No way. Yes. Very, very way. Like this is like, very, 13:17 like 2015. It wasn't like talking about 1991 or anything. 13:22 Exactly. So it's actually relatively recent in the whole. Absolutely. And so I guess the one thing that we want to kind of talk about here is like, what else are brands doing to try to navigate their future and kind of change perception of their brand? You know, Buffalo Trace, of course, they stopped doing that. They've got a lot of good stuff on Twitter and Instagram have just like one little one liners are out there. But one of the ones that's kind of really new and comes to my mind is the one that's with wild turkey and Matthew McConaughey. You know, he kind of comes on he talks about, Hey, I'm the creative director of wild turkey and I'm the co founder of Long Branch and he wants to showcase stories of people and The weird thing at least for me is that there's literally no tie or talk about whiskey and the entire thing and it's all about just elevating new people and new ideas and stuff like that and it's called talk Turkey. So I kind of want to push over to you guys like what do you all think? like is this a Is this a pretty like safe move like to be able to spend this much money to have this big a name on something and then not even promote the product, whatever except like, just on text on a YouTube video? 14:30 So I'd never seen it till tonight. Full disclosure, you sent the topics out so I watched it and I was like actually impressed I was like, born in kenya step your game up with like, editing and like, we need a leather bound couch and a cocktail God, may I put that 14:48 on? Yeah, the next the next. payout will make sure we put that in our budget. 14:54 Yeah, come on, keep contributing Patreon. We need we need that leather couch. Just kidding. But I don't know I enjoyed it. The funny thing is that I'm a sucker for inspiring stories like you get told me like a cool entrepreneur, like somebody that's kind of rose from the ashes. And that's what seems to be the theme of all three videos. I enjoy that. But the funny thing is, you see, they don't actually they make the drinks and they sit there the entire time. And I don't think they ever drink them or talk about them or anything. So it's it is kind of odd that it is so focused on that kind of entrepreneurial spirit and not much the whiskey like you would think they would talk about what's in the recipe they're drinking, or what are they doing? I don't know. There's just but but I kind of like it because you have to go to fringe audiences to bring new people in. I mean, if they were to sit around and we would enjoy it if they were sitting around talking about tasting notes or whatever, but we're already customers. So you got to look to the fringe to bring new people in. 15:51 So I think so it was interesting. I was working in the ad industry when they brought on Matthew McConaughey is the creative director right and it was a big deal because they literally made him the Highest Paid creative director in the entire advertising industry when that took place, right. I think that's what they were looking for though I think they were looking for something a little different. And that's why they gave him so much freedom in control and also so much money. I mean, if not, he's just like another celebrity. No offense to Mila Kunis. But if not, you just have like a celebrity walking through a, you know, a Rick house and pouring some bourbon. I think what it's doing is it's, it's people now know, right? Wild Turkey, even if it's just by association is going to be Matthew McConaughey. Just kind of like you see him on TV driving in a nameless SUV, you're probably like, that's a Lincoln commercial, right, just by association of who he is and what he does and the stories he tells. So I think it's a really interesting smart move by wild turkey trying to branch out and being more mainstream and hitting that more mainstream audience than just showing somebody pouring a bottle of whiskey in a distillery or something like that right at tunes in those those people who might not be hardcore bourbon drinkers who might be interested in maybe doing a cocktail or just want to listen to a good story. And before they know it, they're like, Oh, you know, next time I'll try wild turkey cocktail or something. I'll buy a bottle of wild turkey genius move in my part or genius move on their part. I think 17:05 I'll say that this is something that I've been personally involved with bourbon up and season two. There's a lot there's not really a lot of, you know, break down a bourbon discussion. You know, my first guest is the Golden Globe Award winning actor Jeffrey right. And this is kind of the evolution of of where we're going. We're bringing bourbon to the conversation, but it's not necessarily the conversation. And that's what bourbon and beyond is. That's what a lot of these efforts with celebrities is all about. And the fact is, is that we're never going to be able to break down the mash bill to the 35 year old woman shopping at Bed Bath and Beyond as much as I want to do that or try to happen. Exactly 17:52 right kitchen look like they could care less about there 17:57 but they want to drink it. They want To learn about it in a very, you know, minimal way. And if we if we get them to come to that next level, then the next thing you know it, they're watching this podcast, it comes down to that we have to capture the fringe consumer. And that's what all of this is about. So I absolutely applaud wild turkey for spending millions upon millions of dollars to get new people into bourbon. And if track kitchen if you're watching Hello, this is the first time you watch it. So that's, that's awesome. We'll take your food. 18:27 Yes, I think 18:29 it's just about casting a bigger net, you know, you know, you're not going to get everyone but obviously, the wider you cast the net, the more likely people are to get to this level of fandom and in interest in bourbon, so not everybody's going to want to know the mash bills and everything that but that doesn't mean that, you know, next time they're out of the out of bar, they may order a bourbon old fashion instead of you know, vodka soda or whatever, whatever they may be drinking. So I think that's the whole point. No, it was really well done. It was entertaining and you know even as somebody who watches a lot of bourbon stuff, I still watched it and enjoyed it. So 19:07 yeah, I just switched on the cocktail side they like said what the guy was making or what they were drinking or like because like I knew they're drinking old fashioned on the first one but the second or like, is that a bourbon Mojito? Or is that a bourbon? 19:18 What are they doing? 19:19 A little bit of? Yeah. of bourbon. relevant, not relevance. But 19:25 yeah. And yeah, just some, 19:26 like I said, I think that's the only thing where they really missed the ball on is that there is just really no tie into the whiskey in itself. Like I there's never any mention of it. It was just stories of people. I mean, it's it's kind of like one of those things if you think about it's like if somebody was to start, like, let's say that this bourbon podcast, like blew up and then we're like, oh, yeah, we're sponsored by ibuprofen, right? It's just like, there's, you know, we don't really like talk about it, but it's just like, it's just like a big sponsorship. So, and I guess I'll also kind of take a little bit of a devil's advocate role here. And if you think about it, if you are if you are a bourbon consumer, and you look Some of like the previous commercials that had come out on national TV of like Jimmy and Eddie like in the warehouse and, and talking about their product, you kind of feel like oh, like this is homey like this feels like, it feels like something relatable like I know these people. Like I don't relate to a big wave surfer, right. And so that's kind of where I think like, it's cool just to have extra content. And it's also just, in my opinion, it's just social media and YouTube is kind of what is targeted at so trying to figure out exactly like how do you scale this to reach a mass audience? I think is it's a little bit tough to figure out on their end. 20:36 I think we should do a retreat. I don't know if you watched the third one the yoga away or something. We should all take a retreat to one of those cabins in Australia. Every Community Roundtable turkey under addition, 20:48 live on. Yeah, can we get wild turkey to sponsor that i'll i'll be willing to travel with Matthew McConaughey. 20:53 We need to You're the one that gets all these sponsored trips. I don't know. 20:58 I gotta, 20:59 I gotta we gotta Go to the chat here, john Henderson saying that, you know, he's kind of jealous of Matthew McConaughey. I mean, he's kind of like, he's kind of done that, you know, he's kind of like that guy that all dudes kind of, you know want to be in some respects. 21:17 I just like to trying something new right? It's so different that hasn't been done before in bourbon specifically that you know, maybe it doesn't work maybe it does. Maybe it takes off and continues to be a thing for them. But at least they're trying something new first just doing the same old same old. Here's 21:31 kind of my thought on it, too is like why YouTube? So like I, I know, like this business a little bit. And they could have bought time on a network like FYI, or a&e. And I question as to whether or not that would have better traction for them. Then, then YouTube, that's probably my only criticism of the whole thing is the is the vehicle in which they chose 12 21:56 younger new consumers are on YouTube, they're not on you know, those big cable networks everybody's cutting the cord there. You look 22:02 at the statistics for Gen Z. It's ridiculous how much YouTube they consume verse TV and those it's above drinking age now, so they're going after the target. 22:11 There you go. Good market research. And so while we're still on the topic of talking Turkey will actually talk about one of the newest things that kind of hit the TTP that means that it is not officially released. There is no official release statement or anything like that, but I think it makes everybody a little bit happy to see that there's going to be a rare breed rye a barrel proof right out there. And you know, I think I know you know, Fred's kind of ruined Rare Breed for the rest of the nation already in the past few weeks or fuck sake. 22:44 Kind of like having a hard on from again. 22:49 In our blind tasting did I not hate McKenna and I did. And that bottle of wine blind tasting 22:55 awesome. 22:56 I mean, a single barrel should not be accepted into 23:01 Sure, the another 23:03 one on that, actually. So anyway, let's get back to the kind of rare breed rise. So kind of talk about what do you all think? I mean, I don't think anybody's not excited for this. 23:12 No, I mean, I mean fine one bourbon enthusiast who doesn't want a, you know, well, are they calling it barrel proof? I mean, that rare breed always gets me because I know barrel proof isn't technically Well, it's like 112 is 23:25 what the first label is, but it's 23:27 me whatever. You know, it's pretty crazy to think that coming off of the, you know, the Masters keep what was the Masters keeper I that they did was the name of, I guess, Cornerstone coming up for the cornerstone release that they follow back up, but I guess it makes sense because that one got a lot of, you know, a lot of fanfare, a lot of attraction. So to release this, you know, I feel like that's going to be one of those mainstays on everyone's best value list. You know, whiskeys you should be drinking right now. all that kind of good stuff. So I think it's It's great. I mean, I, I'd love to have more high profile turkey right on the market. 24:05 You know, Eddie first told me about his plans to do like a rare breed right about two years ago. And I think he's been trying to, like break this through, you know, compound a for several years. So I feel like this is one. This is a great win for Eddie Russell. It's going to be an everyday product that's on the market. You know, it'll be distributed nationally. I mean, this is a very, very exciting day for for whiskey geeks because I do think you'll be able to find this. 24:35 Well, Eddie son, Bruce, he's like a huge rap fan. Like that's like, he says he's been pushing rap for them for a while. And but Jimmy hates raw, right? Like, her dad 24:45 just doesn't like it. He Well, he they he comes from that old mold of like, you know, you know, Pennsylvania was was right country and Maryland. And in Ryan was for blending is coming from that region. So He's very much a bourbon man. 25:02 Well, I mean, I, like I said, I think everybody's kind of excited for having some wild turkey barrel proof expressions that are out there. And I think Blake really kind of said it here is that if you can put this into the value category, many people are going to be, you know, kind of driving towards it. I mean, it's it hopefully just doesn't go the way of values of like Elmer TV and well, or 12 and stuff like that. Which it certainly could be if it comes out in a smaller release cycle or something like that. But to this day, we haven't seen anything from Rare Breed not making its way on the shelves until about a month ago. 25:36 It'll be interesting because, you know, you'll, you can find wild turkey and other variants. Left and Right, but sometimes it's hard to find the right especially especially on the shelf, at least, you know, traveling around looking for it. So hopefully it's a little more accessible. But I think like anything else, not like anything else, but I think like everyone else rise become really hot. Right? You just saw heaven hill with Elijah Craig ride coming out. I think you've been noticing that over the years so I think it's a great thing or a revival. And just more options for folks and I'm super excited for it is going to be super tasty. 26:09 And you know, it's it's actually a category that has a broad reaching flavors. I mean, there's a lot of people who don't like dad's hat right out of Pennsylvania. 26:20 God 26:23 let me tell you this cork in this Rubble, yo, Jordan, 26:30 can you get any closer to the microphone? Sorry, guys, Jordan had 26:38 where was I? Oh, broad region. There's a lot of different flavor variants when it comes to rhyme, you know, because it the grain comes through even after the barrel so the higher they go, the more flavor that comes out, you know, from that particular grain and the distillation technique, I think can sway the flavor of rice so much more than bourbon and plus is very hard to ferment. So when you ferment right foams up, and there's a lot of people who will add enzymes to it and enzymes will have a big impact on the flavor. So that's why you can taste some like, you know, morality or some Flintstone vitamins because they're pounding it with, with enzymes. So I think we have an incredible next 20 years of new rye whiskeys coming out. And I just I can't wait to taste them all. 27:25 I'm glad you said that about the rye how it kind of bubbles up. I remember Ryan, I don't know if you were there. But we were in new riff. And we were doing a tour and they were doing a batch of rye. And I mean, it was just overflowing just like pouring out of the fermented tank. And they're just sitting there the hose just spraying it for hours because I mean, it just kept on just bubbling out. And in Jordan, I like how you brought up the Elijah Craig Bry. Now, this only leads to one thing one inevitable thing that's going to happen is that they're gonna they're gonna have to come out with Elijah Craig barrel proof, right? 27:57 Yeah, for sure. And I think that's probably the first thought everyone had when we all read that press release number and solve it is it's not a matter of if it's a matter of one. Right? So. And that's, I mean, I think Elijah Craig Ryan's gonna be hard to get only by the fact that it's starting off in four states, but I'm sure people go gangbusters once they do a barrel proof version of it, right? I'm sure we'll see it. We might see it as much released before we see it full time, but we'll probably see it for sure. 28:26 Yeah, and at $30 I don't think anybody's going to be worried about coughing up that kind of money. But I guess one other thing that will kind of bring up and Blake I'll let you kind of talk about this one. So actually only being available in four states as it starts going out. What do you What's your kind of thought on it? Because I know that there's always a lot of angry people around us that don't get their hands on and they're like, wait, it's in our backyard. Like how can you shame Kentucky like this? 28:51 Yeah, I think that just goes back to the original thing we're talking about with like the Matthew McConaughey videos of you know, they have their market strategies. They have this places they want to hit, they want to come in with something new to try to get that product placement. So it's it's a business strategy. You know, I think it's kind of a continued thing where we see as Fred likes to say, not dancing with the people that brought you but that's that's a part of it overall, you know, I think any of us that are not in one of those states who want a bottle will still find a way to get a bottle. They know the enthusiasts are going to get their bottles, but you know, for the that that borderline whiskey drinker, they want to, you know, try to bring them in with something new and exciting. So it's brand extension and I mean, yes, I don't think it is fair to the guys who've been consistent consistently drinking their stuff supporting them. But at the end of the day, I understand the move. It's it's kind of like that's probably the smart thing in in overall healthier distilleries. 29:55 I will say that it's right now what we are seeing is we are selling Seeing a dynamic diversity in business strategy amongst all these distillers and somehow Kentucky is kind of like the centerpiece, it's it seems to me like those who focus on Kentucky don't focus on something like San Francisco and those who folk, you know, focused on San Francisco, you know, look at like Kentucky is kind of like a third tier market. It's really it really is fascinating from a business perspective. So anyone who's out there who, who like studies like business strategies, you know, long term effects, I would love to see people's opinion on this about what the long term consequences are of like, you know, not focusing on the market that is traditionally so core to a category 30:48 so i think you know, and just from a high level standpoint to right everyone always associates bourbon was Kentucky, right? Oh, it's Kentucky bourbon bourbon comes from Kentucky, etc. And really is the push bourbon has become just more mainstream over the years. I think this is a move to show and make people realize Bourbons and American spirit right? Bourbons for America. bourbon, just not for Kentucky. Right? Wrong or indifferent. Right? By focusing outside of Kentucky. It's kind of a symbol of, yeah, this is this is for everyone. You know, hopefully that releases in Kentucky to eventually. But right now, that's what it's showing. It's just not a Kentucky thing. It's doesn't matter where you are. There's always markets out there and Bourbons for America, just not for Kentucky fans. America Merica. 31:32 And so I guess another question when I keep thinking about this, and I'm like, my gosh, every single year there's press releases. And I'd say there's probably like at least five as a good handful of just like big brand extensions that come out every single year and like how much longer can we can we keep going on like this? I mean, the only people that I know that the lava rye whiskey is four roses like other than that, like is there anything else that the big guys can possibly do to keep making brand extensions or we've got to hit it 32:04 we got to hit a plateau at some point blends at straits blends of bourbon and rum like for for two disunion 32:13 malts. 32:14 Now, can we get a whiskey finishing and mead barrels? Maybe but you 32:22 gotta think about it from from like a hardcore consumer perspective sure I mean it makes sense to kind of like maybe test the waters and put some of those out there but from a from something that's like a viable sort of thing like I don't ever imagine seeing heaven Hill coming out like we've got this new brand extension called heaven Hill. I don't know what mixed ninja ninja Blender mix right you know whatever it's going to be and they do a bourbon and whiskey and a rum in it and they think like oh yeah, like people gonna go crazy. Oh, well, they did come out with hypnotic 32:53 Kenny. True. 32:58 So I mean that one 32:59 yeah. I mean, that's, I don't know, the thing is we think that they are thinking about us which like in your in the chat, you said we are the 1%. And they could care less, you know, they're just trying to they're just trying to like, you know, just like you said, find those niches and keep extending the brands. I mean, they could care less about what we think about it. 33:21 I disagree with that with me. We we had that topic a couple weeks ago are like do barbican's or do the distilleries care about the bourbon consumer. I just think they're trying to find untapped you know, avenues and the one thing they're doing is a vault in this you gotta remember they're pulling back on flavored whiskey you're seeing some companies like jack is really doubling down but you don't see a lot of these distilleries you know, push forward flavor whiskey. 10 years ago, flavored whiskey was all the rage, it was all the rage, and now it's, it's hardly even talked about, 33:56 far less red stags and many Bourbons and All that on the market now that's for sure. 34:02 Well, I mean they're still there. They just don't talk about them or advertise them or do anything I just 34:06 drink whenever I'm partying with Kid Rock and you know the bands. 34:11 It's always good to have backstage patches with Blake. 34:15 The thing is, as you actually don't need them, you just walk back and go where you're going. 34:20 You don't need the past just yeah, look, I'm sorry. No, I got the black band. I'm good. Let me Sorry, it's only Blue Man, sir. Alright, so let's kind of move on to the next topic here. And I guess it kind of flows in with it because you know, we we talked about on bourbon kind of being undervalued on this podcast all the time. And so this next topic was actually really kind of spawned from Campbeltown and a recent Facebook post where he wrote to us, he said, Fred, I'm glad you reraise the topic that I commented back on from Episode 222. And in my opinion, bourbon is not in has never been undervalued, underrated at time, sure, but not undervalued. I never use a comparison of bourbon to scotch as grounds to argue because Gas prices are just out of control full stop. Now if bourbon producers are making healthy profits and their employees are happy than the various suggested retail prices are fine right where they are, or used to be in some cases, so if influential folks like you Jen's continued to say bourbon is undervalued, then the producers will continue to respond accordingly. Hell they already have the inevitable result we consumers are going to pay the price literally. So first part of that is a yay or nay. Whoever wants to take it who thinks here bourbon has been under are overvalued in its category and why? 35:35 I'll go first. 35:38 The People's champion the people's channel, 35:41 so I will say certain brand extensions are undervalued, such as like the antique well a retail value like the antique collection, you know, limited releases, yes, like hyper age stuff is undervalued compared to scotch, but your everyday brands like they are valued credit. Lee or a barrel of bourbon calls 400 frickin dollars to make, and that even less for like the big boys. And so when you get 200 plus bottles out of it at a four to six year, seven year range, I mean, and you're selling it for 30 $40 apiece, you know, they're making plenty of money. So I don't want to hear about it's undervalued, it's yes, some of the higher age limited really stuff is undervalued. But your everyday brands, like we talked about with heaven Hill ball and bond, it's priced right or I think it's overpriced now, but that's just me. 36:35 No, I agree with that. Ryan and I think you know, so limited releases aside, right, which what will take out of it? Because I think no matter what industry and eliminate release is going to hold more value no matter where you are. Right? We I think we're also skewed in our thought perception of how much bourbon should cost what we're willing to spend on a bottle but you have to realize especially I don't know about you guys, but you're talking to somebody outside of the bourbon industry, right who's not a super enthusiast and you start talking about bottle price. And they start looking at you like you have four heads and you're like, Oh, yeah, 30 $40 that's, you know, that's really a great value for a bottle of bourbon that's really cheap. And to them, that's a lot of money for to spend on alcohol. Right? That's not what the normal consumer does. It's just they play down. So for a lot of brands out there, yeah, you know, there might be some that are good values, right for good value to the flavor ratio, but there's some that are that are probably overpriced, like Ryan touched on to, I think you need to you know, I think we look at stuff through through rose colored glasses a lot, and putting us in just the average average Middle America consumer shoes, and looking at the prices on the shelves when you're going out. Yeah, it's probably just right where the value should be. Right. I don't think it's undervalued for a lot of stuff. If anything, some of the new ones are touching on the line of being overpriced. Yeah, I 37:46 think it here we kind of got to define the what what do we mean by under an overvalued the way I look at it is, you know, kind of, to go back to economics classes of price elasticity of you know, how How much people are will the demand still be there based on the increase in price? from that aspect? Yeah, because they keep raising prices and the demand still there. So of course, they're going to keep raising prices. You know, I'm sure they every distillery listens to this podcast and takes their cues from us on how they should price it. But at the end of the day, what they're looking at, is it are people still buying it off the shelf for you know, are the orders still coming in? No matter when we raise the prices? If we come out with a new release? Is that still flying off the shelves? That's all they're really looking at. So, you know, under overvalued is is kind of irrelevant from the in their minds of just will the demand stay the same if we increase the prices, whether that's $1 whether that's $10 and what it's proved, you know, been proven over the last few years is bourbon consumers are willing to spend a lot more on good bourbon. That's not great for bourbon consumers because now we have to spend a lot more on good bourbon But there's still a lot. And I shouldn't say good bourbon, I should say, you know, these different releases. Because I think we all know there's plenty of good bourbon out there. But yeah, it's, you know, whether it's under over that's kind of irrelevant. I mean, we've all seen the $20 bottles that can win blind tastings. And we've all had thousand dollar bottles 39:20 that tasted terrible. So, yeah, I think when you compare bourbon to other spirits, or you know, like wine or beer, other things, like I think it's a great value even at higher prices, like, because with wine, you could spend 10 so even on an hour, you know, 10 $20 for an average bottle, you're only getting four drinks out of that, whereas you spend 2030, your, you know, on a bottle of bourbon, like, depending on how 39:47 how healthy your pores are, 39:49 say 20, you know, drinks out of that. So with that, you know, in mind it maybe, 39:54 you know, it's a good value compared to let me let me just say we're not we're not actually Talking about the bourbon. We are talking about paying for the marketing. So the higher you go up in price and spirits, you are paying for marketing. That's why the heaven Hill bottled in Bond was so important to us is that that six year old bourbon had zero marketing behind it. And now you see when it's released, you see what marketing costs and what the development of a brand is. Marketing is everything in the spirits business, it's 75% of the cost of outside of the taxes is marketing. And when you take a look at vodka, you can look at the sign right behind me there what I think about vodka. Vodka is 100% marketing. It's coming off the still the re distilling it. I mean, they're putting it in the bottle, you know, maybe there's $2 and cost for the liquid, maybe $5. Let's say they're just selling at 100 times and it's all about the packaging. It's all about the marketing they put behind it the celebrity so every layer that you add to includes You, you're paying more for that. So if we didn't have marketing, and we were going back to a time when you were just going and brokering based off of the flavor profile and what an essay or said on how good the bourbon was, then you know, we would be having a very different conversation. Now, I am really glad that the original comments are on that said, Don't compare scotch to bourbon. I'm even guilty of this. But we should not be comparing bourbon to scotch. What we should be doing is just analyzing bourbon. We don't need to compare it to scotch scotch is a different beast. They've got bottles selling for $1.6 million. And they like to kind of flop that around everybody, but then they still have monkey shoulder. So I really do think we have to take a step back for a second. And just look at this for what it is, is that the higher we go up in price, the more marketing we're paying for it and the higher we go up Price, the better the liquid the distillers put into the bottle. So it's going to keep happening. There's nothing that we can really do about it. But I would say that if you find a value brand that you really like, support it. 42:16 Fred, do we need that million dollar bottle for bourbon to kind of push that envelope? As the saying goes, Portland is weird. Perhaps it's something in the water. It turns out that there might be some truth to that. The Oregon capitals primary water source is supplied by the bowl run watershed. It's also the key ingredient in one of the city's most popular watering holes, Bull Run distillery, the boulder and watershed is a very unique water source. It's protected by an act of Congress back in the 1870s. And the city's fathers got their hands on a beautiful lake up in the Cascade Mountains. 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We were you know, you know Pappy is sold for $15,000 at auction. You know, I there is a bottle that went for $100,000 once it was the Parkers unity bottle, but that was for a special cause and had everyone's you know, whiskey poured into it. So, you know, it would have to be the right bottle and have to be the right option. And the problem with bourbon is is that The new charred oak keeps it from really reaching the level that the Chinese and the other billionaires in the world are comparing it to scotch. Even us even we are comparing bourbon discussion a continual basis and so just imagine what the people with money in the private jets are doing. You know, so they're they're looking at they're looking at bourbon and thinking that $15,000 for a Pappy Van Winkle at auction is is a value you know, we're not thinking that but you know that's that's what it comes down to is the people with money will always look for what is scarce what is rare, and what no one else in the world can get. 45:47 We do have the thousand dollar Mint Julep by God. 45:53 And it still tastes like ass. 45:56 I think we got kind of like One more. One more question. Kind of kind of tailor on the thread that I'll let you go Jordan, because I don't know if I still got your answer there. If If you think bourbon is at a level playing field or if Do you think it's actually undervalued or overvalued? 46:11 Do I think bourbon is undervalued? I got you, 46:15 I get you to tiptoe around it now. Now, the hard questions. 46:18 No, no, I don't think it's undervalued. I think it's right where it probably should be. I think if you're in the business of bourbon and you own a brand, or a distillery, then yeah, you think it's undervalued and you want to you want to make more money off of it but from my perspective, as a consumer because I do buy the majority of the bourbon I have I do get media samples but I spent a lot of money on bourbon and I will tell you that I won't spin secondary prices on a lot of bottles to include, you know the Pappy Van Winkle of the world. I what I will spend crazy money on It's something that was made prior to 1962. So I don't think bourbon is undervalued. I think we're we're on the verge of you know jumping up too much and pricing. When you see the Buffalo Trace antique collection, and a lot of these other really like the four roses to me the four roses limited edition small batch is my gauge for limited edition Bourbons because that their releases year in and year out have been so good. And I would put any release of the four roses limit edition small batch up against any any other distilleries whiskey to me, so that is that's the bourbon I always look to when it goes up to $1,000 and we've got a problem mixers, 47:51 we got a ways to go then. 47:52 Then we do it. We do have a ways to go mixers. They went ahead and Look at looked at the secondary market and saw what people are doing there. And they price their their celebration, which is fantastic. It's great whiskey, they price it at $5,000 XRP. And so you will see that sitting around so i think i think there is a limit right now for what people are willing to spend at least publicly and for American whiskey, but I don't I don't think it's undervalued. I think it's about right on the verge of going to Hi, Jordan, what were you going to know I 48:36 was going to say going back really quick to not the million dollar bottle of bourbon but more towards you know, don't get me wrong American distillers if they can and they can push into that higher price range they will and you notice them pulling a page out of the scotch playbook to write double Eagle rare sure it's a value. a one off special bourbon, but it's also a super expensive glass bottle right the Woodford bankrupt battle being sold and customs or duty free shops. Only Right, bourbon is going to keep trying to do that. And you have to remember a lot of really expensive scotch, what you're paying for is a really legit crystal to cancer that that in and of itself is a ton of money. Right? So if they can tap that market Don't get me wrong distillers will if they find the trick, they will start doing that. And they will readily do that too, because no one wants to leave money on the table. 49:17 And so there's there's kind of like one one of the things that was kind of on the trail end of this quote was influential folks, like you continue to say that bourbon is undervalued and the producers will continue to respond accordingly. So Blake, we're all looking at you. What do you think? 49:34 It says influencer. 49:37 mean, do you think do you think we're the problem? Sometimes when we say stuff like this? 49:41 No, no, because I mean, there's a whole culture around bourbon that's that's pushing it forward and all these different releases and you see, some get hot and spike and then others that kind of fall off but I think that's just a part of it. You know, that's part of the bourbon culture and kind of what was a big part of the Facebook groups. So maybe we won't see that anymore. But yeah, that's, you know, it's just obviously nobody wants to pay more for these products. But at the same time, it's kind of like, you know, going back to the trading cards if something gets hot, and everyone all of a sudden wants it. And that's just what happens when there's more demand. So, absolutely. 50:22 So let's go ahead and kind of move on to the next subject. You know, as we start talking about value and everything like that, we got to look at just the greater market of what's happening here with inside of just American whiskey and there is a new report coming out from research and markets. com. That is saying that the overall whiskey market is expected to grow at a compound annual growth rate of 9.9% from 2019 to reach 16.8 billion by 2025. And this focuses on bourbon, Tennessee and rye whiskey. So the growth of this particular market and American whiskey is mainly attributed to the grown to For premium American whiskeys and a rising number of super premium and ultra premium brands, rapid urbanization across the globe and fast growing cocktail market. So Fred, you know, you're the one that kind of wanted to talk about this a little bit, because I think that you want to stress a point about, like how important this research is to really expanding just American whiskey in general. So go ahead and talk kind of talk about it. 51:23 So I've been I've been a journalist in some capacity since basically 1994. And research and reports is one of those. One of those are not research report. Research and markets is one of those kind of like destinations, for journalists where they get data. And it's also where people like hedge fund managers, multi billionaires, all those types of people get reports and they spent they will seriously spend up to $5,000 for you know, particular research data before they put, you know a million or two in an industry, whether it's stock or it's actually on mainstream. And so for the fact that this came from that particular portal tells me that American whiskey is getting eyeballed at a very high rate from people with money. And when you have more investments coming into it, that means we're going to start seeing more now I do know, quite a few billionaires who are entering the market, there are more celebrities coming on board, they're more musicians. Everyone is looking to get into either bourbon, or tequila, tequila as it is it is another spirit that's kind of on that same trajectory as American whiskey. So the fact that it's coming from there tells me that this is such a this is so big from a future like investment perspective and tells me that that bubble is very very far from from bursting, especially if you follow those who basically write checks for a living. Yeah, very good. Look at reports you just drive down Bardstown road, and every frickin few months heaven Hill puts up another 50,000 barrel warehouse. There's like 10 of them now, like two years ago, there was one and now there's like 10 Well, we've known that right. But I mean, the people on Wall Street, this is still just kind of been a little bit of a fancy on the side now in their eyes. American whiskey has proven themselves worthy of their investment and their money. And I, you know, and I also don't know if it's too late for someone to enter the game at a at a high level from a distillery perspective, but I gotta look at this from from a business aspect and it looks very positive and it goes back to that is it under valued? Well, I don't know if I think this more the more distilleries you get in there, I think it will actually keep it in that non undervalued category 54:10 for it. I got a question for you. So, a lot of distillers I talked to they say that we're still like 30%, where we're only like 60 to 70% of the stocks that we had in the 60s are, you know, in the 50s, or 60s? That's correct. That's correct. And, obviously, they keep saying, you know, the population is grown. You know, there's more people in the world. So bourbon still got this much more room to grow. But there's still a lot of competition, you know, like you said, from tequila from wines from beers from cannabis and stuff. So, so, so is that true for? 54:44 Yeah, we're still we're still a ways off from where we used to be. I mean, we're just now kind of getting to the numbers that where we were at some point the 70s but you go into like 58 to 1966 and there was far more bourbon that was being put But also you have to remember that there was not a lot of scotch in the market and so the scotch that was in the market was like was blends like you didn't see like a growth of single malt until the 1960s. So everybody was buying, you know, the people who had the money back then were buying bonded bourbon bottled in bond. But what happened was vodka comes on the scene, and this really is why I hate vodka, everybody, because vodka comes on the scene and starts pushing, you know, bourbon over here with kind of the new crowd. And the bourbon distillers tried to react to that. And what what did they do? They lowered their proofs instead of focusing on quality. They tried to like lower their quality to compete with vodka and orange juice. So it was a big mistake of theirs. And the scotch whiskey distillers seize the moment so did cognac. And so you started seeing all of this single malt and a lot more brandies kind of come on the market and take away that market share. That bourbon has So that is, that's a little bit as to why bourbon started to fall. But at the same time, bourbon right now is on the verge of coming back. But you have to have more investment in here, you probably need, you probably need about two or three more juggernaut distillers to really get back to where we were. I mean, huge said about this report coming out. I mean, I'm looking at the website right now. So to get your hands on this particular copy that talks about this, this forecast of 2025, it's going to cost you around 30 $500, if not more to actually get your hands on it, right. Like that's a that's a pretty substantial amount of money to pay for something like this. So I think there definitely is some validity to what you're saying in regards of the types of people that are reading this are the ones that have that type of money to burn that are investing into distilleries are investing in startups or, you know, buying out other companies or anything like that. So there's definitely something to kind of see about how big this market is growing is just from an investor standpoint. 56:59 Yeah. I mean, we've had investors on the show before, right? I mean, we talked about building Rick houses and all that sort of stuff too. So there's there's definitely room here for more things to come in from other markets and other people, for new entrants into it. It's just not going to be the big boys and the large companies that might be having this kind of stuff forever. But you know, Blake, you're, you're kind of in the financial side. I mean, like, when you when you look at this sort of stuff, is there anything that kind of like, raise your head that might think it might be a little weird or kind of off or anything like that? Well, no, I mean, I 57:30 think just, you know, kind of to Fred's point of more juggernaut juggernauts coming into the playing field is you see people like Bardstown bourbon company, wilderness trail others and on with some serious capacity to make bourbon and you know, that's got to go somewhere. They're not all contract distilling, even though a lot of them are but there's a lot more bourbon being made, you know, Jordan and I took a tour of wilderness trail and I believe I'll find my notes, but it was something like 230 barrels a day. I was there, too. Yeah. 58:01 3252 30 to 50 left 58:04 Ryan in the I was hobbling 58:07 too slow on that on one leg but yeah, so it was like 232 to 50 barrels a day. So there's a lot you know, it just, there's you don't make those kind of decisions on blind faith, I would assume you know so I assume there's market research and all that kind of stuff going into this to say hey look Wait, this is where the industry is go growing and you know, as I think it was in the show notes earlier millennials or whatever generation we are buying more because we're like sitting home drinking with our kids all night. 58:39 I got a question for everyone. So there's a lot of investor people may or may not know this, you can be an investor, say like Bardstown bourbon company or wellness try you can buy like a lot of bourbon, because there's a role in Kentucky it as they age a year and a day. And so a lot of investors go and buy a 600,000 barrels at a time but at age for you Here in a day pay X amount after it ages a year a day, it's immediately double work double, because it's called Kentucky bourbon. Now, do you think if that rule wasn't in place people would even be interested in investing in that? Well, I mean, that's is that an open 59:13 question? Well, 59:16 you know, because it really becomes a securities market at that point. And you know, if you have the money you have the right connections, why would you not do something if you can double your money on something after a year day that that's 59:32 that would have to be a whole rule change of the way I look at it? I'm like, I'm like sure. It makes sense. Like if I was to just be in the contract bourbon business, I definitely do that if they change it to say like, as soon as it's still here and put the barrel here you go Kentucky bourbon and shipped wherever you want to go like that. That's like, full stop, like next day, like I'm putting all my money to do something like that. Now, if they said like, oh, it has to be aged there for the entire time and still it's bottled, then it gets a little bit different. So I think there is that rule. kind of gives a little bit of flexibility and what you want to do but, you know, a year, isn't that long to wait on an investment sometimes. 1:00:07 I don't know. That's, I think that's an interesting question, Ryan. One that a cynical person might ask. And I go when it comes to bourbon brands and money and investors, yeah, it's true. That And that, my friend is why you're the people's champion. And I you know, I know a lot of the people who have done something like that, and after that year has happened, they've doubled down or they've increased You know, there's something about that law it has actually lowered a lot of people in and kept a lot of people away from Indiana. And Tennessee. One of the things that no one really wants to talk about, is MTP is kind of emerging. You know, they they've really hurt themselves in Kentucky. Kind of rallied rallied around and blockchains them out while Tennessee comes on board and starts plucking people off to on the source whiskey market. So in MTP is though is the one distiller. When we look at the big distilleries right now, that's really kind of hurting from a, from a futuristic perspective, because other than those old stocks, no one's really calling them. 1:01:22 And I think that's partly because you have so many more distilleries coming online in Kentucky it's like hey, if you're buying younger stock, what would you rather it say on the bottle? You know, Kentucky straight bourbon, or India or Indiana? That's, you know, I wonder if maybe that TTP rule change what would a change something about that? 1:01:45 For sure. Alright, so we're getting we're running towards the top of the hour here and I kind of want to finish with with one last one one because it's still timely. We had talked about it at least I talked about in the opening of one of the podcasts here recently, and that's travel leisure they came out kind of broke the article, but now more media outlets are picking it. up, and that is that you can rent Jim beam's historic Kentucky home on Airbnb. Now this was right on the Jim Beam property. And you can still book stays for the rest of 2019. Or it might have been sold out by now and start looking for 2020. But each day is priced at a mere $23 a night, which marks the same price as a bottle of Jim Beam black bourbon, the only catches that used to be everyone in the house has to be 21 years or older. So is this fun? Or is this a bad decision? Because this the way I look at it is that when people ask Ryan and I about Hey, where do we stay? We're going to the bourbon trail and I'm like Louisville, you come to level and then they're like what we're saying in Bardstown I go, I'm gonna put cc on Ryan Ryan, go ahead and spit out your three or four places, right? Because you know, in mobile, you've got in mobile, you got you got Airb

Bottled-in-Bond. It’s one of the revolutionary moments of American history, but has also become near and dear to many bourbon drinkers with good reason. We covered the in and outs of bottled-in-bond with Bernie Lubbers back on Episode 089 and it's part of our Bourbon 101 podcasts. Since we know why bottled-in-bond is important, it’s time to find out who Bourbon Pursuit is going to claim as the best bottled in bond bourbon in 2019! We blind sample our way through 12 heavy weight contenders and put them in the Bottled-in-Bond Showdown. Who is going to be crowned champion? Listen and find out. Show Partners: * Hotel Distil on historic Whiskey Row is set to open October 29th in Downtown Louisville. Book now to experience it for yourself at HotelDistil.com. * The University of Louisville now has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/pursuespirits. * At Barrell Craft Spirits, they spend weeks choosing barrels to create a new batch. Joe and Tripp meticulously sample every barrel to make sure the blend is absolutely perfect. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. * Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. * Distillery 291 is an award winning, small batch whiskey distillery located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Learn more at Distillery291.com. Show Notes: Elijah Craig Launching Kentucky Straight Rye Whiskey: https://www.instagram.com/p/B3wt1feHdlZ/ Amazon Gin: https://www.beveragedaily.com/Article/2019/10/21/Amazon-launches-its-own-spirits-brand-Tovess This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about premium pricing. What is Bottled-in-Bond? Blind tasting of the following (in no particular order): Heaven Hill Bottled-in-Bond 7yr Henry McKenna Single Barrel Bottled-in-Bond George Dickel Bottled-in-Bond Old Bardstown Bottled-in-Bond Old Grand Dad Bottled-in-Bond 1792 Bottled-in-Bond Evan Williams Bottled-in-Bond Jim Beam Bottled-in-Bond JW Dant Bottled-in-Bond Early Times Bottled-in-Bond New Riff Bottled-in-Bond Wilderness Trail Bottled-in-Bond 0:00 I love bourbon, but I'm not ready to restart my career in be a distiller. I have a bachelor's degree and I want to continue to use those skills in the whiskey industry. So check this out. The University of Louisville now has an online distilled spirits business certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry like finance, marketing and operations. This is perfect for anyone looking for more professional development. And if you ever want to get your MBA their certificate credits transfer into Ul's new online MBA program. Learn more about this online program at U of l.me. Slash pursue spirits. How fast can you go through like 15 Bourbons? I'd be done. Now if you aren't asking me so many questions. 0:55 Welcome back. It's Episode 224 of bourbon pursuit. I'm wanting to host And here's your weekly bourbon news roundup. Last Thursday, heaven Hill announced Elijah Craig is launching their Kentucky straight rye whiskey. This is made from heaven hills only right Nashville which is 51% rye, 35% corn and 14% malted barley, the same Nashville that you're going to see for Rittenhouse as well as Pikeville with an SRP of only 2999 Elijah Craig Kentucky straight rye whiskey will first launch unlimited markets of North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia and Oregon in January of 2020. Now, when you hear about a release like this, we typically hear about most people, especially in Kentucky, being kind of upset about its lack of market penetration. So we actually reached out to our contacts at heaven Hill to see what the response was. And this was a decision by the brands to focus on markets based on a variety of needs. This could be from building a brand on premise competitiveness and a particular market or too slow roll a product based on age inventory. For this release, there was no one single reason but you can read more about this post on Instagram with the link in our show notes. Jim Murray's whiskey Bible has announced that last week his top whiskey of 2020 was 1792 full per second was the 2018 William drew Weller and third was the 2018 Thomas HND, meaning that Sazerac swept all top three whiskeys of the world for Jim Murray's whiskey Bible. Now continue on the trend of Buffalo Trace, they are also releasing their next installment in the old charter oak series called Canadian oak. In late 2018, Buffalo Trace announced its old charter oak series, it's a collection exploring the different taste profiles of barrels obtained from trees grown in different countries, climates and soils. For this newest release, Buffalo Trace obtained a small number of barrels from Canada and filled them with mash number one. This is the same Nashville us for Buffalo Trace and Eagle rare Canadian oak trees differ from a American oak trees that they are harder and have tighter grain structure, which affects the bourbon as it ages. The old charter oaks Canadian oak was aged for 10 years and will be available in retail in late October. The suggested retail price will be 6999. While we're talking about new releases, let's not forget about angel's envy and their annual cask strength release. angel's envy cast drink begins West standard angel's envy bourbon, it's made with a Nashville of 72% corn, 18%, rye and 10% malted barley, aged first in new charred oak barrels, but finished in barrels at once held port wine. As these barrels are tasted throughout the year. A few are set aside to age longer MB bottled at cash drink for its special annual release. This year's release will clock in at 122.4 proof with seven different ages as port finished bourbon of 689 10 1314 and 15 years old, that are missing To create this final blend, the bottle will come in a packaged in a wooden Art Deco style box for a suggested retail price of around $200. And the last release we're going to talk about isn't actually bourbon. It's not actually even whiskey. It's a gin and it's called tow service. And it's only available in the United Kingdom, France and Germany. This is a big deal because the owner of this brand is none other than Amazon. Yes, Amazon is getting into the spirits business. And this is now available to order online@amazon.co.uk this is another one of those things that we may see as a small ripple but could potentially end up being a tidal wave years down the road. You can read more about this with the link to beverage daily com in our show notes. Bottled in bond. It's one of the revolutionary moments of American history but has also become near and dear to the hearts of many bourbon lovers and with good reason. We covered the ins and outs of bottle and bond with Bernie lovers back on episode 89, and it is also part of our bourbon one on one podcast on our website. But now, since we know why bottle and bond is important, let's move on to what bourbon pursuit is going to claim as the best bottled in bond bourbon in 2019. We take a total of 12 heavyweight contenders and put them in a blind and what we're calling the bottled in bond showdown who's going to pull ahead and become the champion this year? Well, just wait and find out. All right, let's get down to it. Here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred Minnick with above the char. 5:36 Hi, Joe from barrell bourbon here, myself and our master distiller triple Stimson spend weeks choosing barrels to create a new batch. We meticulously sample every barrel make sure the blend is absolutely perfect. lift your spirits with barrell bourbon. 5:50 I'm Redman Aiken. This is above the char this week's idea comes from Patreon subscriber Brian Shabbat. He asks should bourbon enthusiasts stop complaining and embrace premium pricing for premium bourbon. MacAllan. 25 year old for $2,000 is acceptable. But 1500 for Pappy 20 is considered price gouging. Brian also wants to know what's the possible economic implications for premium pricing. Now this story really goes it's really goes back to the 1960s when bourbon is kind of changing its business model up until the 1960s. You saw bottled in bond bourbon and even straight bourbon is really kind of competing with scotch as a premium on the shelf even cognac so cognac would have been you know another brand he's would have been considered the creme de la creme and scotch and bourbon were kind of, you know, neck and neck scotch was also dubbed more blends they were so this was when scotch was predominantly a blended category. Now the 1960s scotch starts going toward a more premium ization and they focused on single malts, while bourbon decided to do things like lower their proof points from like 100 or 107, to 86 and 80. And they started becoming the everyday man's whiskey. And so they were basically setting the market up to take on the blue collar workers, the people who were fixing sinks and doing construction and in the military, everything that they were doing was really geared around people who had a budget. Well, scotch was focusing on the people on Wall Street and bankers and people who own businesses. They put a lot of effort into, you know, building this esteem. At the same time, they were also putting away whiskey. They were putting away a lot of whiskey, though at age up to you know, 50 years and today we see him coming on the market for a million or more at auction. Now today, bourbon is so popular that distilling have had to increase your prices to kind of deal with demand and it's often gets pushed back. And there's one brand that always comes out as unpopular in this conversation. And that's Pappy Van Winkle. Now, when we when Brian asked about 1500 dollars for Pappy 20 it always has to be pointed out that the distillers are not the one setting that price that is not the MSRP for Pappy Van Winkle. And so the argument can be made that the MSRP is for these premium Bourbons don't necessarily reflect what people are willing to pay. So the question is, should people increase their suggested retailers price? Yeah, I don't know. I think it's still pretty cool to have a glimmer of hope that maybe you can get a bottle of four roses limited edition for the MSRP of 100 or 150, or whatever it is versus 500 to 1500 that you'll find it in some retail stores, but it also gives bourbon a little bit of a black guy. As It's never good to increase prices 200 400 600% year after year after year, and that's essentially what's happening right now. So there is a way to increase prices, and I just don't know what the best way is. scotch on the other hand, doesn't seem to be short of those million dollar bottles anytime soon. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, if you have an idea for above the char become a Patreon subscriber and share with me your ideas you can check us out at bourbon pursuit on Patreon. Until next week, cheers 9:41 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon and today Yeah, yeah boy. We are the trio we're back here again with an awesome as can be a fun episode. But first, you know, I gotta say that shout out to hotel distil. This is where we're recording today. We're actually in the barrel room here and this is located on historical Whiskey row is going to be opening on November 1 here in downtown Louisville. It's going to be a place that has, you know, first we talked about it on the last podcast, it is used to be the home of JTS Brown. It's got an exciting history and it's now transformed into this beautiful beautiful space. So it's going to be designed to really ignite your passion for discovery and will be the anchor for levels revitalization and refinement of bourbon culture. You can book a your true authentic experience and stay at Hotel distil.com 10:31 So is it that is it is it is very nice. 10:34 Yeah, very sweet. Excited now I'm excited to kind of see what's going to happen if you're watching this on video they talked about so they haven't these barrels behind us and they've got taps on them they're gonna be having barrel aged tap cocktails like right here with inside of this room. So I'm kind of I'm kind of stuck. Yeah, they 10:48 will actually be aging in the barrel. They're going to be in like a sleeve or a bladder, because that's the only way you can technically do that legally. 10:58 Like Like a bottle of wine. So They'll 11:00 be they will be pre like Franzia. Yes, it's like the bag. 11:04 Yep, front front. 11:06 The back before 11:09 I've done it on a boat once or twice. Yeah. So if you've never played that game before, ask somebody that has a boat on the lake in front. Franzia. 11:17 Alright, so that's the bag. Let's go 11:19 All right, let's go. So what we're gonna do today is we're going to slap the bottle and bond This is going to be the bottled in bond showdown. So we are selecting what we can find as one of our favorites have 12 different bottle of bond every day and I think we got one that's outside of Kentucky we got one George decal, but the other ones these are all Kentucky. And you know, this was a combination of grabbing stuff in our basements heading to go into the liquor store and, and, and finding these and, you know, I think it's gonna be kind of fun to kind of go through this because, you know, Ryan, I'm the I'm going to test your knowledge real quick because you know, we've We've talked about bottle on the bottom on the show before we've had Bernie lovers on give folks an understanding of what the bottle and Bond Act and what it was really there for. Gosh, I 12:09 feel like that's a Fred question. I don't know. 12:12 I'm gonna put you on the spot here. Let's let's do flex some 12:14 civil so we'll get it we'll get him back. Okay. Well you know it has to be at least four years old right? 12:19 Huh? 12:20 It has to state the distilling season. Is that right? I don't know if it's 12:27 distilled in a singer to be distilled in a seagulls 12:29 Yeah. Okay. See I've already got it wrong keep going 100 proof obviously as being bonded warehouse now obviously. The what else am I missing? 12:41 So it has to be distilled at one distillery in one distilling? $1 one. Okay. And has to be 100 proof at least four years old. Gotcha. 12:50 Yep. So I hit them all. You 12:52 hit all the major points and then they need to disclose the the distillery and all that stuff where it's bottled. Yeah. And this is it. This is a Guys, I, I know we see this on the bottle and we look at it for like quality purposes. But I want people to realize how important the bottle and Bond Act of 1897 was it First of all, Grover Cleveland signed this into law. This was his last thing he signed in his in his first term. And he was the, you know, the bottle and Bond Act was really our very first consumer protection legislation as a country. So now we have all these protection measures to help us as consumers and it really begins with bottled in bond with the government trying to protect us from bad whiskey. And then, but medicinal circles and it's important to note that they've had a lot of backlash like the blenders and the rectifier. Canadian whiskey makers were very much against the bottle of Bond Act. So this was one of the first times that the Kentucky distillery community banded together for a single cause and that was to get this passed. Now they just Sue each other. 13:55 They still help each other here and there but they still reasonable This is a 14:00 true part of part of the game. Now the way I feel like I'm looking at the longest shot ski ever, like I feel like I'm about to do like my 21st birthday it is we've got we've got 12 different Bourbons that are lined up and these were, these were ones, you know, we've got one that is kind of the newest addition to this, which is the new seven year old bottle and bond. And you know, there was, it was funny because I was actually going trolling to the liquor store last night and I was I was actually flabbergasted. I was like, man, I forgot how many bottle of bond Bourbons there were out there. And then Natalie that is a great values to well, and that's what they usually are typically good values. But you know, some of the ones I selected, you know, I was going through and I was looking, you know, there were also you know, there's there's bottle of bonds that are coming from Oregon and other places. But I said let's focus on some of the stuff that's pretty regional that or should I say not regional, but pretty national can be found on a national level. at the same exact time. You know, there's also a lot of Bourbons out there that are hundred proof, but it doesn't actually say bottled in bond or bond. The word bond is not on the package. So I just overlooked it and said we'll go on that Yeah. And then you know probably there's there's probably two more that should be in here that just couldn't bring it to get our hands on it because this is Louisville and people go crazy because it's bourbon is the EH Taylor brands so the small batch and the single barrel are not a part of this big idea. I saw that bottle and I was going to bring it in but I was like, I'm not gonna share that those fuckers 15:25 I'm kidding go the value for giving me the other side of this is we didn't choose any of the highly allocated releases. You know, the old Fitzgerald spring and fall releases the Parkers 24 year bottom bond also we also didn't bring any media samples. So these are all things that we actually physically purchased and that's very important to note because most competitions are they get their whiskey from the supplier, so the distilleries will send it into the competition. So these are guaranteed all have came from a retailer. 15:58 Well, Justin full full disclosure this seven Hill bottle and bond did come from heaven Hill really this was the media sample they sent everything else though has been purchased by us in some way in some way shape shape or fashion it's a it all goes in the bourbon pursuit credit card 16:15 right that's right so so that's why we're not getting checked on this person. 16:21 Alright, so let's go ahead Well, we got we got 12 to go through so we'll dive in kind of start with the first kid I 16:27 remember we I said wanted to talk a little bit about the the 16:32 smell my glasses, so I'm just trying to make sure that there's the same because they're not number. First of all this tasting is is is flawed because we don't have the same glass for every one of them. So we will now have to like take into account some of them are neat pores are neat glasses. I would say we've got 95% majority Fiverr and the Glen Campbell and Karen but this is that this is close enough. 16:57 fault brought the nega Lazarus That's the only thing I can tribute it was the wrong glass. 17:02 But it's okay but so that's the it's the only thing and this is this is actually a pretty small flight for like a for like a blind tasting this is all blind we don't know what we know that these brands report but we don't know in what order and as we're tasting you know we're gonna find out what we gotta gotta eliminate all you gotta eliminate and everything but I think we should we should also give our notes to the audience as we're as we're thinking. 17:27 Absolutely. So we'll go with number one I you know, for me, I'm going to be excited to kind of see how this is going to go down because what, two years in a row, Fred's over there talking about Henry McKenna being the best there is in the world and yet now we're let's see, now we're going to now we're going to 17:43 that was in that was in a competition by the way, I was just one Judge of like, 40. Now I'm one of three. 17:51 We're narrowing it down. We're making the competition better though. 17:54 The first one, I'm definitely picking up some grainy notes. 18:00 These are gonna be Yeah, they're all gonna be young. 18:02 So when they're gonna, you know, there's there's definitely going to be some 18:06 that are. Most of 18:08 them I'd say are probably for younger, right, you know, we brought in. They can't be younger than for for older. Yeah, yeah. So the one thing that I think is we're going to find unique as we go through here is there's gonna be one that's going to be sort of an outlier. And that's going to be the 1792. Because the bottle and bond that the 1792 pick is actually a store selection, right? So it is a single barrel, it's a one off, it's not going to be some of the the normal 1792 UCO. Let's just 18:36 take that I know what do we want to do are we want to rank them one through three, or we want 18:40 to say best, I'd say you pick your top three. 18:43 Let's pick our top three. Okay, so by tasting number one, I'm eliminating it from my round, it's just too grainy. It's very alcohol forward. 18:52 If you were to if you were to try to pinpoint number one 18:54 and number two, number two, if it's not the decal one 18:59 I'll be sure Then you shouldn't be at San Francisco anymore. Yeah, 19:04 that's number two's nose. Yeah, 19:06 that's, that's deco all right? Yeah. But you know, and the thing is like, this was a the decal is a recent entrant to the market. And I think it's it's gone over fairly well with the community of people that are, you know, getting into it trying Tennessee bourbon and stuff like that. And so there is an opportunity to actually have George tickled, so be a part in here. 19:27 So what's our teen year in it? 19:28 So this is so this George decal doesn't have an age statement on it. They do have it they have a 13 year release. Okay. And this is the non age dated version though. Yeah. 19:40 actually enjoy it. 19:41 Yeah, I mean, one one thing I would say about decal Is it is it is often flawed and competition because it that particular note, that kind of like morality, the Flintstones a note really can stand out in a bad way for a taste Yeah, so if you're in if you're tasting a sea of things that are very Carmel forward and vanilla, and you get that note it can be very off putting or it can be very good and can help it stand out and yeah, so it's like it's one of those it's either love it or hate it in competition. 20:16 Yeah, that one I didn't get the vitamin D on the front end but it's really there on the finish 20:21 on I would recommend I would recommend Also make sure you rent when you get like some of that lingering, 20:26 lingering taste in your mouth and kind of rinse it out. Yeah, I could see that. I mean so frightening number one was read. 20:32 Just Yes. 20:33 I would say if I'm if I'm and this is the hardest part of a blind tasting is picking out what it is right. But I would say it's definitely one of the younger ones. I probably put it in a league of like JW dance or, you know, maybe, maybe the Evan Williams but I don't know. 20:52 Okay, kind of the month ago, it had like a cinnamon spice finish that I usually get an old old markdowns, maybe that could be way off. 21:00 I'll tell you to it it is like, if you're focusing on what it is instead of right what is best in the flight, then you're not then you're not focusing on the tasting. So I will will start I would recommend like trying to like figure out what they are later because that can actually be fun and I'm already 21:18 moving on to number three is notebooks like a notebook so you can pick one of them just said negative negative that's how I that's how I did it. 21:26 Now I just moved on to number three now I love the nose on number three I thought of this that's great care Marburg can move forward. Yeah, nice to the taste ended up being a little I don't want to say bitter but kind of thinned out and a little astringent towards the end. So I like you give the thumbs up in the nose. The taste is like in the middle and the finishes kind of 21:47 blow I actually think the the the palates got it like this kind of a cool lady. That's got like a KoolAid aftertaste. 21:55 Yeah, like fake sugar. Yeah, like, kinda it's process flight. Kinda we hack Kool Aid packs like when you take a Crystal Light pack and just 22:05 you just spoon Did you forgot to 22:07 put water in it? 22:08 Three put three is a maybe 22:12 it's a maybe 22:14 it's a maybe it's a maybe when we go down here and 22:17 there's a chance 22:18 there's it there is a chance that it could it could go somewhere. Yeah. So Fred kind of talk about, you know, when we got all these bottles of bonds up here. I know you've got a you've got a hard on from McKenna a little bit, but kind of 22:33 blind tasting candy. There was 22:36 help. That's what he told 22:37 me. It'd be like a $10,000 scotch. Wow, it's just one vote in that I'm bad at them. 22:43 You know, I guess Fred, you know, one one new entrant that we actually have up here that I think is might hopefully blow some socks off. And it's kind of a riff, new riff, right, 22:54 focus on what it is focus on the whiskey. No, 22:56 no, no, but I kinda want to talk about you know, new riff and You know how they got late You guys are just like we're trying to work here. He's like 23:08 now I'm gonna think it's a new roof now. 23:10 Well, I mean, I just kind of want to talk about you know, their bottom and bond, you know, coming into the market and actually having that be their first entrant. Right and I think wilderness trail did the same 23:18 exact number four was new rip and while he's talking about it just happened to be it now. 23:25 Now that I actually do like number four, I gotta days like new roof. 23:31 I like butterscotch kinda like no 23:33 it's like he planted 23:35 like a cinnamon note on the back of 23:37 their cinnamon but it's like a lot of 23:40 it it's got that fried pie crust that I love fried pie crust man you got you got some awesome tasty between you and Ryan I I gotta I gotta up my game on it that's for sure. You've got to eat a lot. That's why do eat 23:52 a lot. The thing is, is none of its fake. I know people want to say like it's it's hate but this is like I mean I've really trained and stuff And really tried to connect to everything I've ever tasted. And it all goes back to when I'm trying to get better from Iraq and I was using mindfulness techniques and tasting and I would use to one of my therapy things was I would break down what barbecue potato chips tasted like and felt like on my tongue and that would help keep me grounded and I just applied that to bourbon and so that's kind of been my my technique. 24:25 So start off with going down your local local grocery aisle finding different kinds of chips and pulling the real thing Yeah, and you mean you got to gain 10 pounds automatic 24:36 the risky take 24:37 grab like 10 varieties of fried apple pies, you know those? 24:40 Well, I'll grab 10 different varieties of like hot pockets and we'll start 24:43 right then you're born You 24:46 know, I'm not a hot soccer guy now back in college Pop Tarts and like crucibles Yeah. 24:50 You know, I used to be I did love toasters turtles because you get to design your own art on there. Yeah. 24:56 Oh man. But the thing is, is like with the Pop Tarts like I only go two flavors. It's brown sugar, cinnamon and then the wild berry like those are the only two that I would actually go for beyond that, like I'm not a strawberry jam person like, clones 25:09 never really did like number four by the way. Yeah, four is really good. Okay, there's a check for me. Where's the checkbox? Yeah, 25:15 going to five Alright, moving on to five here like that. 25:18 It's hard to analyze color in here because it's so dark. Yeah. But 25:24 yeah, I mean you got we got it. We got a variety variety really grainy. 25:29 You mean on the nose? It's getting a little too grainy for him. 25:32 It also but it does have like, it does have like that. 25:37 You go to the fairgrounds and they're serving the cotton candy you go to the cotton candy booth is 25:42 that cotton candy so I got some raw notes or something. I mean, when I just had a taste and I think you kind of get some of that that cotton candy and a little bit on the back of it. You get some grape Kool Aid. 25:53 Yeah, it does kind of kind of funky. A lot of raw notes on that. For me anyways. 25:58 So all that's pretty Though I'll ask you all When was the last time you all had some some of these other bottle of bonds that are just you know, regular kind of shelf stuff so like old Bardstown old grains. 26:11 Like this is old Bardstown. Yeah, you think? Yeah, I think this is old Bardstown. Number five. 26:16 Yeah, I now think it is. 26:18 Because it has that like a particular oak note in there that I get from their, from their stuff. 26:23 I mean, I've always early times for me like an always 26:27 early, early times. I mean it's, 26:30 I haven't spent a lot of time with early times. 26:34 But of what we have up here that I've been drinking the shit out of his new riff and I've been I've been drinking so much of their cash drink stuff, you know? That was so good. It is I it's 26:48 It is incredible. What they've been able to accomplish. Okay, so we go to the 26:53 glass, it's not 26:54 a Glencairn. Well, I think we we definitely made a mistake of not labeling these glasses either because now me and you are literally like three four little accounting like what's we're on number six already and we're trying to like go through these yeah 27:08 so I do like the nose on I do like this a lot 27:12 this is probably my favorite knows this far everything you want in America knows oh my god 27:17 that's good that's kind of full package right there yeah that's a full package that's a that's a check check plus from what what else 27:23 so let's when we say full package What are you what are you putting that in reference to what is your What is your baseline that in bourbon I'm talking about in life in life? What's your baseline for a full package? Can you 27:33 want me to just hit solid Are you referring to package 27:37 Gosh, last time I'm drinking with you all and again 27:40 often by now maybe I'm so glad we picked this over like lawsuits or something. They were like texting last night and I like put my phone down for like an hour and I come by or 30 texts and I'm like, we're not doing these. We're gonna do the bomb bomb. 27:53 It'll be much more files wave. 27:55 So anyway, my full package will be like what I kind of think of it is like it just hits the checkboxes Got the nose, it's got the flavors. And when I think of flavor, like it's nothing that's it's nothing that's crazy. It's nothing that is off the wall. It's a one off like it is it is hitting, you know, most of the high notes that you get on a bourbon flavor will you've got caramel, you've got oak, you've got pepper, you've got some of those things, and it still lingers just a little bit now all these being 100 proof. We're not going to see something that's going to sit there and just like the finishes, keep going and going and going, right? I mean, I think we will, maybe we will, but I would think with 100 proof and I'm not going to act like I've got a refined palette by any means. But I think that I typically only see that happening with barrel proof whiskey is something that like I could still sit back like 30 seconds later and it's still like those flavors are still coating my mouth my tongue 28:49 sometimes I get on that. If you have like, I've had a lot of good for roses, like the hundred proof. What is it? 28:58 Single barrel single barrel, sorry. VOB SV 29:01 Yeah, that like, you can tell the spices from the grains and not from alcohol and the finish just kind of lingers on there. And so that I really liked that one. The finish was a little flat for me, but it hit all the checkboxes on 29:15 Friday night solid six had some layers to it. I would say revisit that one. We like when we're done here, because that's definitely a contender. 29:23 Yeah. Hopefully we're not doing like confirmation bias on each other. And we're just like, Oh, yeah. Oh, no, 29:28 I disagree with you. I will totally tell you. Yeah, but that and I know that Ryan will be quick to say, Yeah, fuck you, you know. So but in his own way, 29:39 own heartwarming way that thumbs down. 29:41 You know, he'll be like, well, I don't really. I don't really agree with you on that. But I know where you're coming from, though. Yeah, Fred. I agree to disagree with you. And then Kenny will be like, well, I just don't get that. Yeah. 29:55 It doesn't have 29:56 to be that or I'll say it. Let's change this. Let's change the subject real quick. 29:59 What does that mean? The next one, what 30:00 does that look like? But seriously on to the next one? 30:03 I got my first Neagle, SB to number seven, I think we all got new glasses changing everything. You know if I'm 30:09 gonna if I'm going to go on a limb if we're gonna if anybody's gonna guess on one thing I'm going to say number seven is gonna be the old granddad bottle and bond. I just I think it's, it's okay. It's basic. It's either me that or it's Evan Williams. It's one of the other, but I feel like it's just, it's cool. It's like there but I don't think 30:26 like I don't think it's all green. I don't either know, this. I think this is 1792 that's what I was gonna say from the nose. It's got that you talking about Nana's guys that you're bananas. 30:36 You know, as there's one thing that Ryan brought up a second ago when you talk about four roses, you know there's a there's a few distilleries out there that that don't come out with a bottle and bond product for roses and wild turkey or or two of them that kind of come up to mind. 30:51 You want to know why? 30:52 Yeah, I'd love to know why the books 30:54 on the distilling season, actually and not bringing them in is very difficult. So like knob Creek, which is 100 proof that could have six different distilling seasons in the the actual audit of a bottle of bond it's actually very costly. Heaven Hill has it down because they've been doing it for so long. And they, you know, they don't really change a lot of those older methods. 31:16 Do they still audit for vault and bon 31:19 Oh, if they if the federal government wants to audit, they will audit and occasionally they will come in and out and they what they do they just look at paperwork, that's all they do. You know, it's not like they're going in there and 31:28 taking dramaturgy. Yeah, they're not doing anything like that. 31:31 But it's, it's it's pretty fascinating 31:34 to see. Really getting finished, kind of lingering. 31:38 So do you think do you think that creating a bottle and bond product is it just more paperwork nowadays at the end of the day, and maybe that's why wild turkey for roses and people like that, just don't worry about it. 31:50 It always comes down to position in the marketplace. And when you look at where bottle of wine Bond was 15 years ago, heaven Hill owned it. Nobody was getting near it. No one cared. Then Bernie lumber starts kind of striking striking the bar to me he changes he changes. That man changed the perception of the bartender community for bottle of bond. And then so other people started tacking on the new distiller started coming on. They're like we want to be bottled bond, we want to be old school. And then people like brown Forman said we need to get back into bottle the bond cc early times. You know, you see all kinds of efforts from a lot of places and people like four roses and wild turkey have always been about four roses and wild turkey. You know, so they don't want to necessarily get and kind of like a categorical lump with those particular brands. And maybe they will maybe they will and I don't know, but Wild Turkey has kind of been very anti 100 proof, you know, so the 100 it for them. It's comes out their one on one absolutely like their entire branding is around one on one. Yeah. And that's very specific. Absolutely. 33:05 Yeah, I think ball and bonds are like perfect for cocktails by the way to like 100. Like, you know, it's just it's a lot of them are young enough and like and there's enough proof there that they stand up to a lot of sweet ingredients 33:20 and like the nose on a it is. It's really nice. 33:23 And the other thing about the cocktail side is that yes, it's got enough proof that keeps it there but you know the bottle and bond this market of what we're looking at, we're looking at anything from a $15 bottle up to a $50 bottle I think 50 is the high when I was going through this so wilderness trail bottle and bond is the highest near it was 50 I believe it was between the Evan Williams bottle of bond and the Jim Beam bond and maybe the JW dan, as hitting some of the the lower lower price point therapy. Medic. Medic. Medic Ryan just Ryan just choked out over here. 33:57 Yeah, I'm trying to spit but it went too far down. No point of return. 34:03 date was very green forward to me. And it had like kind of like an undercurrent of like develop grain like an cornbread, which is a note I often get in some of the beam product. I've got a real nice like cornbread like a like a touch of like honey butter on it. 34:19 See, the thing is I actually kind of still enjoy this one. There is there's something about it where I didn't like it finished. The finish is still there for me. I don't know. I'm just gonna go the check on that one, Brian, 34:30 and I don't like it. So it didn't matter. 34:32 Well, no, I don't know. Just, there's only it's only a 33% vote over here. So you know, that's how it is. That's right. 34:40 All right. So number nine. Number nine. We were rolling through these awful quickly, aren't we? 34:45 When you got 12 to get there? 34:46 Yeah, we can have two and so on. And so I got another question I'll throw at you all because I remember this from I think was in Houston bourbon society or one of the other was you know, 34:57 when it comes to my tastings, and I'm trying to be analytic I hate when people fucking talk to me. So this is like, throw me on. Focus hit me. Can you shut up? Can we but it may be terrible, but it's true. Let's let him have a 35:10 hard I'll try the zone. Okay, all right, right on 35:13 I'm not gonna taste what you asked a question. Go ahead, 35:15 we gotta gotta keep the conversation going, right? We got to keep the listeners engaged here, right? 35:19 But you can ask Jessica I like close the door and I'm like, I'm writing. I'm doing this let me allow, you know, 35:25 we gotta we gotta make you break out of the mold here. So you're hanging out with us. You don't wear mascots anymore. Right? So we're making the breakout you 35:32 fucking hot out there too. I don't have to be on stage. So. 35:36 So. So there was I think it was a question that brought up by Wade. You know, we love Wade friend of the show. He's got a lot of bourbon knowledge out there. And and he said, you know, is it true or false that is every warehouse, a bonded warehouse. It comes down to the law. 35:53 They not everything's stored in a warehouse, but in terms of like, you know, they've been Pay they have to have it It cannot be in a non bonded the government has to know where it is. And it is it is very much on the watch list now is it a marked bonded warehouse? No, no I mean there there's there was a artists in Kentucky arts and distillery was aging in containers shipping containers for a long time and then they were aging outside for a long time and they would later be Jefferson's the growth growth product but the government knew what those were and they had to be that paperwork had to be submitted. 36:44 Okay, well see there's an LG 36:46 even have to have like a bonded Kenny and I've rented this like when when you buy do a transfer and bond from 36:52 one to another. You have 36:54 bonded transfer like so much now. This 36:56 isn't bond. This isn't anything that you have like Can I just go got, I got an f1 37:01 fit no one comes in and inspects it per se, but, but the paperwork has to be there. And if it's not, then you know, they get and when that audit comes, which the audits don't come, you know, they don't always come so like you could get away with, you know, doing that and, and I know people who, who distill, you know, illegally and then had a distillery and they added their old stuff into it. That was illegal. 37:25 But it happens. It does happen. So I'm going to go on a limb here, and I'm going to say number nine, it might be my least favorite of everything we've tried so far. 37:36 I really like the nose. But Gosh, the the finish on this, it just tastes like grass and, like, dirt. I don't know 37:46 it. Yeah, I'm just, I'm just not a fan of it. I'm ready to move on to 10 Yeah, I mean, it was just like, okay, can this one be over because I can't deal with it anymore. I don't know. We might burn a bridge there. But you know, it's just not there for me. 37:58 You got to stop worrying about the bridge. Yeah yeah they're engineers 38:04 I don't hate it as much as you guys but it's not it's not a contender for me there it's grainy Scott alcohol undertones to it got some sweetness but it's not it's not it's not an end of the world bourbon like it's not making me mad like you 38:23 I mean he's fuming yeah right here 38:24 I am off my rocker right now just going crazy. All right, number 10 yeah my guess moving on to number 10 we're we're rolling through these, I guess the thread for you Do you do these tastings a lot? Like how often or how fast can you go through like 15 Bourbons. From forest to still Bull Run distillery whiskeys are using some of the best water in the US. 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Like I don't. It depends on what I'm doing. Like if I'm doing it. I'm doing it in competition. It depends on the competition. I have to adhere to the rules. I'm doing it for myself. My own little fucking thing I do whatever it is whatever it is I do or I'm just trying to taste you know the big part is is like do I have someone there helping me because I don't always have someone helping me and it's hard to pour for yourself and I mean we do 200 products difficult yeah but I can you know I usually try to spend two minutes with the glass thing is I my whole thing is I want to give I want to give every glass its chance you know it's not you know someone put a lot of time and attention and effort to make it if I'm going to taste it in analytically I need to give that same kind of time and attention at least 41:38 if you do something different you you tastings multiple times if you give it a rating, right, 41:42 that's right. I will I will taste three times because right now I'm just coming off a cold memory. I texted you guys yesterday that I lost my palate. I was like I don't know if I can do this. I lost my palate. I woke up I went out that's good. Anyway, bars and found 41:55 it. I feel like we're on a level playing field and now 41:58 we're down Last night, I wouldn't read it is late. I went out with drinking with my friend and I woke up this morning. I'm back, baby. It's like all that whiskey, like, cleared it. It was like so I'm just coming off the three festivals and I've been pretty worn down and now I'm back. And I mean today I could tell it was back but, but, you know, if you have an onion, if you whatever you have for breakfast, influences your palate, our surroundings influences. Right now we're on we're in a construction area that that little bit of, you know, dust smell that's out there can influence what you're picking up. The lights can have something the fact that someone's saying, you know, talking out there can influence I mean, there's so many influences so that when I'm actually tasting by myself, I like to be in a kind of like as much of a soundproof room as possible. No music, nobody bugging me. And it's just me and the glass. You can do a whiskey quickie can take three days to 42:57 give it a thumbs down 43:00 The way you all do, that's great. 43:01 And I guess I'll kind of give you I'll throw one back at you here, Fred, because, you know, we, we catch some heat every once in a while because people think that, oh, 60 seconds that's not long enough for whiskey review in and I kind of go on the other side of that and I'm like, well, soon as you taste something you kind of realize if you like it or not, 43:19 yeah, how many times does it take? Like, do you ever come back and you're like, 43:23 yeah, there's no way there's there's not actually as many how many times I would think that you went from something that you're just like, this is like a 65 to 95. Right? Not that big not understand we're not scoring it on a on a on a, on a point scale here. We're just saying like, thumbs up middle ago. Thumbs down, 43:40 right. So there have been 43:44 there been a few that went from like 80 to 85 or 88. Something like that. 43:53 Just a few points, then yeah, 43:54 I mean, it's not it's never really, you know, too much but It is there. And you know the big thing I think, you know, we have to what you have to what you have to determine as now that you all are kind of getting in the critic role is like what is your base? What is your base? And for me, my base has always been Evan Williams Black Label. That's an 86 point whiskey. You know and the thing is is like when someone rates that when someone says that is 60 points or 45 points or something, you're essentially saying it's undrinkable. Evan Williams Black Label is very drinkable. And you know, it can be enjoyed sip, it can be a cocktail, it's it's very, you know, versatile and like that is my base. So if I if I find myself in a situation where I am being very low, I like I was I was writing some stuff really, really low for a long period I went back to taste Evan Williams Black Label to make sure I was not crazy crazy. And I was like, I was like No, I'm right. Because these are not better than Evan Williams Black Label and it was like it was the one that did it for me it was like three years ago it was Eagle rare 17 year old and and then that also the Parkers heritage came out that was really, really bad. And I was like, God, I mean, I'm about to write these two things under an ad. And it was like, that's like really, really low for for those two products. And so I went back and taste that my base and it was like, Okay, yeah, I feel firm in that. So you have to like come to your base of like, what is your throne? What what barely makes your thumb up? And then what barely makes your thumbs down that that will always help you as as a reviewer, because you have to have something to lean on. Because if you know, you know you, you want to be consistent. That's the main thing. Absolutely. Thanks to you our basis and McKenna 46:02 realize like if it's better than here McKenna we like, yeah, 46:06 it's not, then it's true. That's true. I mean, that's that's kind of what started us down our path of launching pursuit series was like a well, if this is better than here, McKenna will do this. Yeah. And so we had a first barrel sample and that's for you. Well, that's, I mean, good for you. That's another story here or there. But I kind of want to talk about maybe 46:21 I should flip the podcasts on YouTube about why you started. 46:26 Well, we can we can we can definitely do a podcast about that one. 46:29 I did that last night. But then I was like, I don't want to 46:33 sell but it's all about a hotel to stall 46:34 and they won't be self promotion. When I'm asked questions. It's good. God, 46:38 by the way, before we go to this number 10. Yes. And I was I was I was I put check check. plus, plus, I was away. I was really, I enjoyed number 1010 46:49 was very woody for me. And see, that's me. I like 46:54 my pain. And I'm just I'm writing that and one of these ones that Fred doesn't like his hitter McKenna. Like 47:01 getting old so no so here so this is this is I'm not getting that So the one thing here about here McKenna is that it's a single barrel right? It's nothing that is it's batch it's not it's not celaire age it's not whatever it is. It is it is a single barrel offering it's nothing else like it you know we have the opportunity to catch up with Josh Hey for one time and talk about after it one San Francisco and say like, Listen, we all pick and cherry barrels like we all just sending two bottles that you knew that are three bottles that you knew that were just like Primo pristine, like going to knock the socks off. And he said he said Kenny This is exactly what happened. I make one phone call down to the warehouse. You know right now we've all been in the warehouse at heaven Hill. There's just pallets stacked up just boxes and things are moving everywhere. made a phone call. said hey, I need you to take three bottles out of a box. Here's the address the ship them to. That's it. There was there was no cherry picking. There is nothing like that. 47:59 Henry McKenna won Best bourbon the year before 48:02 Yes, I wouldn't believe that but like everyone you talked to it heaven Hill had the same exact story like it same exact like it's like they fed it to them like this. Well we need to do 48:12 I went back in the judges and you know what, when we unveiled the bottles, all the bottles for the same barrel number and, and you know so that makes it that makes that a little bit more believable is because they were they said it came from one case and you know as far as I know they case up their their barrels all the same, they don't intermingle. Yeah. And so that is that is the only thing I can think of, and also the year before they won with with Henry McKenna. And the second thing is what nobody ever wants to give any credit to is that there are more than 40 judges there from around the world, the greatest palettes in the world and I'm not just saying that because Guys, you're on it. But like I'm talking about people who run the hotels in Macau, people who run Wynn Las Vegas these are the these people are ultra respected for their palates. And they are human guess what they think is a honey barrel at heaven Hill. Could be a shit turd 49:25 over there. 49:26 Yeah. I mean, I gave two years in a row on my panel. I did not metal Pappy two years in a row. And you know, YP is you know Pappy is good. I mean, I didn't metal it. So what does that say? What does that say? I mean, you don't know how the You don't know how the judges are going to react. And you don't know what panel they're going to get on. If they're on my panel, man. Like with my panel, 49:56 we submitted pursuit series and Fred was like, I didn't even get that on my panel. Yeah. 50:01 So you never you never have any idea. 50:03 So like, you know, so that I you know, there's there'll be two 300 Bourbons that come in. There's other judges I can't you know, and they split them out. And yes, they do make me drink vodka. 50:14 Oh god. Oh, you poor thing. The fourth thing, by the way, thanks for you making the sacrifice for doing that as well. You 50:21 bet 11th amazing. 50:24 11 so 11 I did a check minus that was good, but it wasn't all the way there for 50:28 me. Yeah, I thought was average for me. 50:30 I love 11 a lot. I'm already on 12 50:34 Yeah, I got some like floral Really? Because I'm the exact opposite. I am I'm unique. I'm putting it 12 is as one of the bottom of the buckets for me. 50:44 I don't know what it I'll try to 50:46 try to it smells like floor sweeping. 50:49 Yeah, I'm not I'm just not a throw up packets. 50:51 Like Can you talk about 50:52 I usually talk about that when I talk about rye whiskey that I always get this note with some rye whiskeys of of if you recall. Back in grade school and somebody would like he had a classmate that puked on the floor and you had a janitor that wouldn't put the shavings on top of it that's always a note for somehow that I always get off stuff. 51:10 Yeah that's that's a real note that green hand whiskey had that note for me 51:17 I don't like I don't like it enough to put them on top three so 51:21 so i think i think it Now it's time we go ahead but you we need to replace like your top five retail taste your tops for sure anything you got a checkbox or a yes or whatever it is that you go through I use arrows 51:35 I use arrows and like I'll do like one arrow if I'm excited about two arrows if I love it three arrows if I'm like, about to go in the room with it, you know, 51:45 there you go. I tell you what, you know I went to I went back to number three and like three is just like coming back from from 12 the kitchen just got like super caramel knows. I put a maybe check box next to it doesn't mean anything. me here yet as we keep going, 52:02 I left threes nose. 52:06 Three is got too much. It's over early for me. threes over early would mean he was over early. So like, think of herbs like deal. Oregano. Sometimes those are candy, some medicinal herbal. It's a no for me threes out now. 52:26 Yeah, that's pretty good. I get that I'm still kind of there. I don't know for me I'm still kind of there on it. But I'm going to exit for me. Well, I think that 52:34 if we need to report who's reporting for us we do not need a report. 52:37 There is there is way too much out here that we do not need a report. So I'm moving I'm going to go between like 3468 and 10, maybe 11. And I'll choose my top three out of that. 52:53 fours and for me from the nose. 52:55 I want to say it's one dimensional, but maybe we've gone through this 15 times. There's there's something that a taste that just doesn't have it there for me. And for me I'm looking for I'm looking for caramel I'm looking for oak, I'm looking for some of those things and for just doesn't have it there for me. So I'm gonna I'm gonna go ahead and just kind of knock that one off my lips pulling for out of your list. I'm pulling for my 53:18 lot. It's in his top five Remember that? No, well, that's still good. Like, I mean, something 53:24 they might have even though they knew what it was. Anyway, I have to I had to know. 53:28 I think I think you know, you're right. I think it was too easy to take it out. I'll go back to it. Be only because I think it definitely deserves to be up there. It was too easy to pick it out. 53:44 And it is bourbon. It is bourbon. 53:47 And I guess you know, I'll look it to you guys and kind of kind of pose this question to you as a stock start depleting as you know, higher aged whiskies available in the market or not very anymore really the one thing that we see that's very common is we see 10 to 14 and 15 year old Tennessee product that is now available Do you think that's going to help change some consumers mind about their about actually having you know very aged product that's in the market versus something that's only like four to six years old? I mean, 54:21 what help Fred and then they've given barrels kind of proven that there's some really good stuff how many Yeah, I think I think barrel bourbon is an anomaly. They are such good blenders. Yeah. And they blend out a lot of that really unsavory note that I find in some medical 54:38 product but honestly, I just put a check plus next to deco like it was just it's too good. I don't know maybe. I know most of these pretty much all these except that one coming from Kentucky but there is there is something about it. That I think most people if you've never had that kind of product before, you gotta give it a try. Because if you haven't and you you just immediately Oh, Tennessee screw that I'm not going to drink it and you haven't tried it, then you're not really giving it a fair chance and a fair opportunity because there's there's a lot of good products that 55:09 that you can't get a question for both of you 55:11 know, here we go. 55:12 How do you put when you're tasting? Like I try to surround my mouth? I'm looking at my spit cup in comparison to Ryan's and it's like 55:22 oh, Kenny's been drinking the whole time empty. Yeah. Well, I mean, my mind is full. 55:30 I mean, I put a lot of my mouth to kind of surround How much do you put in your mouth to? 55:34 To find out before we talk no leaders around? 55:37 I'm doing I'm doing baby pores over here. Right? I'm just doing baby pores. It's just enough to like, maybe coat the tongue. I think I think what you're looking for is like an overall like, are you chewing it kind 55:49 of thing. So this is very important to me as a taster. Like I have to make sure that because if you just put a baby poor on there, you're getting a small snippet of what that was. He is Now you all been doing this long enough I don't have to worry about you you know discrediting at some because of a mouthful perspective but mouth field to me is it's so important that's why I like to make sure I can at least fill it down my jaw line 56:14 but there's also I think something that is you also miss by by also not consuming it and being able to say like okay if we spit it out are you missing something? Well 56:24 you know keep in mind I have to when I'm doing this I don't like 1500 so I I'd be dead which I know some people would like that but it's not going to happen 56:34 I got talking to him over here 56:37 I got my top three 56:38 you got your top three already I went out on a tangent here 56:42 and yeah, I'm still okay I'm going back to number six because I had a check check plus i probably doesn't mean actually going to go back to it but 56:48 yeah, I'm with you on six it's checks all around. 56:52 Good stuff. Missy when I when I do take a little baby poor though I still I still try to get it in my jaw line. I still chew a little bit Try to have a cover my tongue Yeah, but I also am not the way that it's just like it's not like a full like quarter round so my mouth either right it's I've got to have just enough that I can savor the flavor be able to get it to the to the point where I'm like actually chewing on my back molars 57:18 but other than that four and six are are wanting to for me or in that they're right there. I have a run off between seven and 11 and I need to be removed from from this I need you to like you need to be kicked off the panel. No, I need I need I need to be I need these to be given to me where I don't know what they are. is what I'm saying. 57:38 Well, you don't know what they are. 57:40 No, I know what they are. I know this is 11 57:42 right? I know this seven. Alright, well turn around or put your hands above your eyes and just give them to 57:48 get over here. sevens on the other glass. I'm already going to know Yeah, 57:52 it doesn't need God this is it. This is how I do things like if like if I get like really tied to a particular one. So now now what I have Do I have to like assess this from? Like, what I like more about it and so 58:05 I'm mouse like tingling right now. Yeah, he got again shot. 58:09 I need to find out which I like more seven or 11 and we may have like a tie. Well, 58:14 I don't like either, so I'll solve that for you. 58:17 There we go. No, I'm kidding. It's a it's a consensus, pursuit consensus. You know, sometimes you go back to something and you taste it. You're like, maybe I didn't realize I like that as much as the first time. 58:28 We're all drinking. 58:30 Yeah, maybe. 58:31 So I'm going to I'm going to go with 11 over seven. Due to a berry, berry accentuated note that I happen to love. Bananas. Not bananas. 58:45 What is it? 58:47 No. marzipan is not marzipan. 58:51 It's it's cornbread. 58:51 Like a like but a particular like the Gypsy cornbread not like the like the sweeter cornbread. So I'm going with 11 59:00 So my, my, my pics are four, 59:05 six and 11 59:09 four, six and 11. Okay, so we got Fred. 59:12 I didn't put that in order. You want me to order that? 59:13 Nope, that's fine. So Fred at four, six and 11. Ryan, you got your top three. 59:17 I have four, 59:19 six and 10. 59:21 Oh, gosh, you guys are on point over. So I'm going to go a little bit different. I've got six, of course. So I think so six is by far that's that's, that's in our top 11 was closed over me. I also had 10 Okay, and 11 so at 610 and 11. Okay, so six and 59:38 11 are definitely in the top two. 59:40 Yeah, absolutely. So with that, Are y'all ready? For the reveal? 59:44 What what what what's the what's the on the third? Do we want it because we want to do the third. So we all had like a 59:51 bullet. I had four. 59:52 And you know what he and you had four, 59:54 four. I had 1010 We're all waiting. Like it's kind of like a three weeks. Split right there. Yeah. So, so we basically had four 610 and 11. Were our favorites. Okay. Okay, that's three. So we'll just take those as the four. Are you ready for the reveal? Yeah, let's do it. Alright. So number one. All right, number one, everybody remembers this. 1:00:17 We all kind of put an X on it. This is the wilderness trail. Ah, bottom, the bond. 1:00:22 I said, and I said, I thought it might be JW dan. So remember that. 1:00:26 There we go. There we go. Number two, we were all right. GEORGE deco. But you know, the thing is, is that like, I really enjoyed it. I, I would, I would honestly put that out there as my top but you know, when we look at stuff that's across the market, people that are going for, I think we look at the Kentucky Bourbons of what people really want. The George decal note like you love it or you hate it. It's one or the other. It's okay. And so, you just got you just got to find it now. Here it is. Number three, Henry McKenna. Number three is Henry McHenry. I had XR 1:00:59 Look what I put I put a line through it. Like it and see. Let me replace it. It happens it happens. 1:01:06 I know I've had some McKenna's oh they're just 1:01:08 this is not this is not smell good. So but then again remember we talked about this so now I like it. No I don't like it single barrel offering now it's hits different cannonballs McKenna phone calls this one time. Number four. New Heaven Hill the new bottle and bond heaven Hill shit. Right. So 1:01:32 so it lands on the top four. Yeah, it 1:01:36 lands on the topic. I think that was number one because we were so I really liked it. 1:01:41 You did you both you both. We both put that as your number one. Yeah. CI There you go. 1:01:48 This was my second guess about it was was an old Bardstown number five. 1:01:53 You are on point. Bardstown old parts town is number five. Right? Yep. 1:02:00 I can't remember. 1:02:01 But listen, here we go this is the one that I'm most proud about because I thought I guess it and I love this brand. I love the proctor making number six is the early times 1:02:10 body. Yeah, that six was really good. 1:02:13 Yeah, it was great. 1:02:14 Yeah, yeah, right. Exactly. So I I still stand by it. I say that is the best one liter of bourbon that you find on the market for 27 1792 1:02:26 think you think that you like somebody just like mind reading over here. I'm just like sending you like notes of Allison happening. The texts of the I really, 1:02:34 I really for him, I really do drink for a living. 1:02:37 So 1792 the bottle and bond. This was a pic that was done by the wine rack here and local and global. So that was that one. Number eight. Might have a guests. 1:02:48 I didn't have a guest on not just a negative. Alright. 1:02:50 Well, this is probably the most common bourbon you're finding the market is the Evan Williams. bottle and bond. Right. So there you go. Number nine is the Jim Beam Yeah, so to access to Exodus, I mean, I, I literally literally wrote down I hate doing this because I love the book no family I it's just like I literally wrote down. I said the worst of all of it and I'm just not a fan of it. That's just that's just how it is. Sorry. Number 10. S

Welcome to Bourbon Heritage Month where it’s full of awesome festivals like Bourbon and Beyond. We dive into the show talking about Pernod's intent to acquire Castle Brands which Jefferson’s is a major portfolio player and if $223 million was a good deal. We comment on PBR's newest whiskey which is aged for a grand total of 5 seconds. Next is looking at the artificial tongue and what this could mean to the future of the industry. We wrap it up examining EU tariffs and it’s impact 1 year later on the whiskey market. Show Partners: The University of Louisville now has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/pursuespirits. Barrell Craft Spirits has a national single barrel program. Ask your local retailer or bourbon club about selecting your own private barrel. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. The 2019 Kentucky’s Edge Bourbon Conference & Festival pairs all things Kentucky with bourbon. It takes place October 4th & 5th at venues throughout Covington and Newport, Kentucky. Find out more at KentuckysEdge.com. Central Kentucky Tours offers public and private bourbon tours for groups from 2 to 55. Learn more at CentralKentuckyTours.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick takes a look back at the Legend Series. Let's discuss Bourbon and Beyond. Pernod buys Castle Brands for $223 million. https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20190828005771/en/Pernod-Ricard-Acquire-Castle-Brands-223-Million Do you think more smaller brands are going to get bought out? Is Pernod trying to get back to bourbon? Was this a good buy for Pernod? What do you think about PBR making whiskey? https://www.jsonline.com/story/entertainment/beer/2019/08/22/pabst-blue-ribbon-now-making-whiskey-collaboration-new-holland/2086883001/ Have you all seen Screwball Peanut Butter Whiskey? What are your thoughts on the artificial tongue? https://www.geek.com/tech/artificial-tongue-can-taste-subtle-differences-in-whiskey-1798999/ More secondary markets are gone. What are your thoughts? Who do you think is behind the shut downs? Tariffs continue to hammer down on bourbon. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-whiskey/us-whiskey-exporters-struggle-after-year-of-eu-tariffs-idUSKCN1V80DN What do you think is next for tariffs? What impact do tariffs have on the bourbon industry? Thanks to Nick from breakingbourbon.com, Brian from sippncorn.com, and Blake from bourbonr.com for joining. 0:00 I love bourbon, but I'm not ready to restart my career in be a distiller. I have a bachelor's degree and I want to continue to use those skills in the whiskey industry. So check this out. The University of Louisville now has an online distilled spirits business certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry like finance, marketing and operations. This is perfect for anyone looking for more professional development. And if you ever want to get your MBA, their certificate credits transfer into Ul's new online MBA program. Learn more about this online program at business.louisville.ecu slash online spirits 0:38 so I'm just waiting for the movie where artificial tongues go rogue and one of them decides is going to go and replace everybody's whiskey with like rapid each whiskey because it's got the perfect profile and there's just insanity and chaos. You know 1:08 This is Episode 217 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your host Kenny. And as usual, a little bit of news to go through. So larceny from heaven Hill has launched a new app. It's an augmented reality app called unlock the Rick house. The app was inspired by the history of john II Fitzgerald. He was a treasury agent back in the late 1800s and early 1900s, and was one of the only people that was legally allowed to carry the keys to the barrel storage Rick houses with a discerning palate for fine bourbon john Fitzgerald often uses Rick house keys to gain access to some of the finest bourbon barrels for himself. And those barrels from which he chose to help himself were often referred to as the Fitzgerald barrels around the distillery. The infamous active larceny led to the larceny brand and has now inspired the newest augmented reality app. So Once downloaded, you can explore the Rick houses by tapping on each one to search for the prize winning 2:00 Fitzgerald barrel, and from September 1 through December 31. Each tap of the Rick house gains one entry into the grand prize of $10,000. Daily prizes will also be awarded and include everything from a mini barrel shot glass and larceny magnets all the way up until a larceny guitar or an LED sign. So you can get unlock the Rick house available now on the Apple Store and Google Play. On Tuesday this week, I had the pleasure of joining four roses master distiller Brett Elliot, to a special media preview of the 2019 limited edition small batch, were able to ask him anything in taste through all the individual lots that comprised of this batch. And here's some of the details. The 2019 limited edition small batch will have a breakdown of four different bourbon runs. There is an 11 year old ESV that accounts for 26 27% of the blend. A 15 year old GSB at 40% of them blend a 15 year old ESK with 25% and a 2:59 21 year old BSB at 8% on the blind, and we got to go through each one of these and kind of rate them all and kind of figure out how they all lead into creating their own blend and the 21 year OBSV had the best knows it was super okie but the finish lacks some depth. And there was I know there's a lot of OESK lovers out there, but this one had a pretty strong bite to it honestly wasn't my favorite. However, the 15 year OESV was the real star of the show. This had depth and complexity and just kept going at all the right components into it. But come to find out. This is the same version of OESV that was sold at the gift shop this past year for Father's Day. So there's a few lucky people out there sitting on some really good bourbon right now. And the final proof of this will be 112.6 with around 13,440 bottles to be released in the US in around 3002 the rest of the world with an MSRP of $139 and 99 cents. 4:00 During this time with Brent, we also discussed the barrels and if we would ever see a single barrel limited edition ever again. Well, the unfortunate news is that he said it's likely to never happen again. With the explosive growth of bourbon, it's almost impossible to find a run of barrels that were all distilled at one time that would be able to satisfy this type of demand. Instead, these runs will be saved for future small batches for years to come. He said they have plenty of high AH stock. So this is great to hear for enthusiasts like us. And hope you're out there enjoying these whiskey quickies that we're releasing. As we get into the fall we're going to be bringing new reviews of all the newest releases including next week's as we review the new four roses small batch Limited Edition. All right now on to the podcast. On this Roundtable. We talk about bourbon festival season as we just wrapped up one, but we're heading into bourbon and beyond right around the corner. And if you haven't yet, go get your tickets. We'd love to see you there. Drink some good bourbon and listen to some good tunes. But after that, we dive into 5:00 To the acquisition business was the 230 $3 million deal for Pernod Ricard to acquire castle brands which Jeffers is a part of. Was that a good deal? Well, we had a lot of folks that were commenting in our chat section and talking about the EPA or the earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization. It's a measure of a company's operating performance. One comment we received was from Craig Kessler, he's a Chief Investment Officer as well as an executive bourbon Stewart. So he talked about per node selling wild turkey at 12 times its EPA, while brown Forman was selling at 10 x. So per node got an above market value during the time of the value of other competitors out there in the market. As for promotes re entry to the market, castle was trading at a price sales ratio of one x and per node paid about to exit the company. So brown Forman is currently trading at eight x. So per node is paying 75% less than brown Forman on a price per sales basis. So from this production 6:00 It looks like four nodes sold above market for wild turkey and bought castle below. So we'll see about more of that into the podcast that after that we also dive into PBR is new whiskey, the artificial tongue and if you tariff data that's now been published is still going to continue to wreak havoc on new exports. All right, now let's get on to it. Let's hear a word from Joe over a barrel bourbon, and then you've got Fred Minnick with above the char. I'm Joe Beatrice, founder of barrell craft spirits. I know I talk a lot about blending here. But we also have a national single barrel program asked you a local retailer or bourbon club about selecting your own private barrel. 6:41 I'm Fred Minnick, and this is above the char. In 2013. I started a series at the Kentucky Derby Museum called the legend series. It was a great opportunity for me to sit down with the legends of the industry and ask them questions about their careers and taste their whiskeys. I've talked to great people. 7:00 Julian Van Winkle, Edwin Foote, Harlan Wheatley, Chris Morris, Bill Samuels, Jimmy Russell, Jimmy Rutledge, and many, many, many more. It's been one of the most important events of my career. And now as I go into building the eighth season of The Legend series for the Kentucky Derby Museum, I just look back on it, and all. It's also where I made my first connection with the fellas here at bourbon pursuit. You may have heard this story where Ryan showed up and forgot to turn on the microphone. We still razz him about that. But it really was a great, great moment. I think, not just for me or the Kentucky Derby Museum. But for all of bourbon. The Legends Series was really one of the first high level high education events that allowed people to get really connected to a master distiller or a CEO and learn about what makes them 8:00 Tick. And I'm very glad to see that today we know everybody's mash bill. We know people's business procedures. And you have companies like heaven Hill who are creating diagrams for social media about airflow in a warehouse. So much has changed in eight years and the people who are most to be credited with this, are you, you the consumer have more power today than ever before. And let me tell you, the whiskey distillers pay attention a lot more to what you think, than they do. The USA Today or the New York Times, you are the most powerful person in the all the equation of American whiskey. They follow what you say on social media. They follow what you listen to what you read, and they want to know your opinion, constantly. So join me in the further pursuit of knowledge and let's 9:00 asked people to open up and tell us more about their distilleries. Some people may think it's unfathomable to know what's going behind the scenes when they're making a price increase, or what they're thinking when they're changing their barrel entry proof. But eight years ago, heaven Hill didn't disclose their mash bills. Now, they freely tell you every single grain that goes into their whiskies, so things can change. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, make sure you're following me on Twitter and Instagram. So you can come to next year's Kentucky Derby Legends Series. You can find me at Fred Minnick again at Fred Minnick. Cheers. 9:45 Welcome, everybody. This is the 36 recording of the bourbon Community Roundtable. This is where we talk about what's happening in bourbon bourbon culture bourbon news. We've got a lot of topics to cover, but you know, this is also the beginning and how we're kicking off 10:00 bourbon heritage month so everybody welcome to bourbon heritage month it's kind of like our Super Bowl if we will right we're finally here doing that. But you know not only this bourbon Heritage Month starting to kick off but one of the biggest things is this is also turning into festival season. You know we just wrapped up bourbon on the banks. There's one called Kentucky's edge that'll be coming up and first week October however, Fred Super Bowl here is here and in two weeks so Fred you getting getting mighty pumped for bourbon and beyond? Yeah, bourbon and beyond is right around the corner. I've got two other festivals right before that one but bourbon and beyond is my baby. I work on a year round. We've been working so hard on it, obviously we got the Foo Fighters ZZ Top. 10:41 Alison Krauss, Robert Plant, Zac Brown band we got all these incredible bands but we also have 10:47 you know, grand Melia from top chef and we have a lot of lot of cool panels here. So you all are on the panels. Nick Jordan's there on behalf of breaking bourbon. But I'm very proud of 11:00 The curation of the panels this year, and it's just an incredible, incredible lineup of of education and cocktail. Yeah, I mean, do you want to kind of give people a little bit of a teaser on what some of these panels are so they can go out and yeah, so well one year of moderating Kenny is like what is a master distiller and that's something that we in our community we talked about all the time like what is a master distiller? I mean right now technically Brian who's just a lawyer could be a master distiller without even going any kind of like training for it. We're I'm moderating a panel about the history of slavery and American whiskey. This is the very first time that anybody in our industry has approached this and I want people to realize that you know, this is something that 11:50 you know, it we, we kind of like avoided a lot but you have people like fun Weaver 11:58 and you know, who's bringing 12:00 to the forefront and making sure people want to talk you know, make sure people talk about it because it is something important that is a part of the American whiskey heritage. And I don't think we should just like gloss over it with and so that that's, that's a big seminar we've also got one called bourbon disruptors. I'm excited about Brian's panel that he's doing. It's called whiskey dark past, you know, there's been a lot of murders, there's been a lot of bootlegging. All kinds of shenanigans have been associated with with American whiskey. And, and so you have some some deep ones. And then we have some like real basic like high about how to make a high ball and how to make a man hat and an old fashion. We have a lot of stuff like that as well. So licenses, as well as the hardcore ones. Yeah, and I think at least all of us, we're super excited to actually be there be a part of it beyond the panels. And, you know, while we're doing that, let's go ahead and introduce all of our guests that are here or sorry, our typical roundtable member 13:00 Is that are here today. So let's start off with somebody who might not be able to be here for that much longer because he's getting ready to start batten down the hatches as as the hurricane starts making his way so Blake from Florida checking in How are you, buddy? Doing well, How are y'all? 13:18 We're trying to sneak sneak in a little bit. Yeah, it's been quite the week we you know, I'm kind of a little bit of a procrastinator on the on the storm side, but this one looks like we could get a little bit so yeah, no school for the next two days at least. 13:36 Well, good deal. Well, make sure you you stay safe out there. You know, we're all we're all making sure that you know, everything is everything's good for you, as well as all the other flirty and bourbon residents that are down there. So hopefully everybody is staying safe and heat and all the warnings of evacuating if you actually need to evacuate. That is true. Yeah, you know, but the streak continues. I just kind of throw that out there. The streak continues. 14:00 Introduction. 14:01 Absolutely this qualifies. It sure does. Yep. Yep. So Blake, if you could go back 10 to family please do please go for it, man. Thanks for thanks for chiming in here. 14:12 Yeah, I'm good for a few minutes. arena question Where were we? Not yet we're just still we just started going through the the table just going around the horn so well. 14:23 Yeah. Well, let's take a break. So Brian, you go ahead and take next. Yeah, thanks, Fred. And again, this is Brian with sip and corn. You can find me on Twitter and Facebook sipping corn Instagram to sip and corn and online at bourbon justice calm and sip and corn calm and just to echo Fred's comments. 14:44 Probably no one is is is as excited as he is. But I'm I might be second place got rained out last year for my bourbon workshop. So I'm really excited about doing it this this year. And Fred Thanks for including me. Yeah. 14:58 And Nick, let's go ahead break 15:00 bourbon. Let's hear it. All right, thanks, Kenny. I've Nick from breaking bourbon breaking bourbon com. Check us out on social media at breaking bourbon. And yeah, unfortunately, I will not be able to make bourbon and beyond this year, but Jordan will be there. I will say I am pretty disappointed. It was a pretty fantastic festival last year even with the day the rain out the second day. And you know, I think anybody who's gonna be making it out there probably won't be disappointed. So I'm sure Fred you're probably going nuts now still getting ready for this thing but yeah, it's a pretty fantastic bourbon festival seems to seems like it's only getting better year after year. Wow. Thanks, guys. I gotta tell you, you know, it means a lot to me hearing you all say that because, you know, getting rained out. It was like it was like a gut punch. And it was just so it was really devastating because we had to cancel the other festival which is the Hard Rock Festival louder than life the next weekend. So all three days were canceled. 16:00 So we're really hoping and praying that we don't we have great weather and we're at a weird a better location that can handle the rain so like it's at the fairgrounds it's like right across from the actual Expo Center building and it's like that flat plane and it's a much more it's not as beautiful as champions park with all the trees but it's something that you know is if if this thing floods the whole city's underwater 16:32 there's gonna be a new meters thick that's going to be on the side of the bridges the show the the great flooded 20 2019 if that's what it is. Knock on wood. Yeah, let's we're not gonna have that it's gonna be remember the first year it was hotter than hell out. The second year was just torrential downpour. Third year it's got to be just clear skies. It's what it has to get it perfect. Yep. Alright, so let's jump into it. So the first topic of conversation is kind of a big one. You know, we've had days all our 17:00 on the show before good friend of the show from Jeffersons, and it was announced last week that Pernod Ricard is going to acquire castle brands which Jefferson's a part of that portfolio for 223 million. So it's good to see that porno is still still on the hot streak of buying a lot of stuff. You know, I was just looking at Castle brands. His website, of course, like Jefferson's is the one that kind of screams out to a lot of us. But they've got they've got an Irish cream and an Irish vodka. They've got Gosling's rum, they've got Aaron whiskey, which I had never really come around before. But again, it's a it's a bigger portfolio but it's it's pretty good to see this sort of thing you know, we've been not really not accustomed to seeing a lot of these. These brands start getting acquired. Now porno is actually kind of on a buying streak. It seems a lot recently. 17:51 You all kind of see. This is a trend that's going to continue to happen like do you think these more smaller brands are going to continue to keep getting 18:00 swallowed up by a lot of these big ones. 18:03 One thing that I noticed about this and I know, I know what they're paying for, obviously 223 million sounds like a lot of money. But for these larger companies, it's really, to me that's a that's a low amount for a brand like Jefferson's, which really is a workhorse. I mean, that that's a good selling brand that, you know, that alone could have probably sold, you know, you know, five years ago when you had high West sell for 170 $5 million. You know, Jefferson's was 10 times the brand of high YS at that point. So I think and I know what I know what rabbit holes sold, but I can't really say and I felt like that was a low amount as well. And so I feel like they're getting these these these brands that might be in debt and they may not have as much like 18:56 you know, may not they I don't know what 19:00 How porno is doing this, but that's not a lot of money for for castle brands. I just don't I just don't think there was anyone else looking to buy them. And so, right now you have the big companies and I don't know if they're out there looking to buy up, you know, brands unless it's like white cloth at the moment. You know, the like laws the hot one. So I guess that you know I come from the I always say that where I come from the tech side and so seeing things in the, you know, a couple hundred million dollars of acquisitions aren't, you know, it doesn't really I don't really bat an eye at it anymore. So you said that 223 millions just really not a lot. 19:37 And you think that it also could be 19:41 are there really only like a just a tiny handful of big players in this game that actually have the capital to acquire and if they already have something that's in their portfolio, do they need to continue to keep acquiring? Yeah, let's look at the brands that the big. The big portfolio is proud for 20:00 pronounce Ricard Diaz. Do you throw Proxima in there? BM Suntory obviously 20:07 Karen which has four roses would you know throw them in there and you know there might be a couple others that could really move the needle but you have to look at like what are the who has what it says rack Africa says RX a big player obviously. 20:27 And in 2009 porno basically got out of the American whiskey game when they when they spun off 20:35 you know Barton and you know, wild turkey and so you had like this incredible you know, they got rid of these these great brands and 20:47 and, and now they're trying to get back into the game after it was too late and pornos got a great Irish Whiskey portfolio. So Irish Whiskey is the only you know, whiskey that's really hotter than bourbon and 21:01 It makes sense for them to to try and get some jargon juggernauts but you know they've got smooth Ambler rabbit hole now and Jefferson I think they got rabbit hole really because of the facilities and rabbit holes facilities have incredible potential for expansion they fit right into the like the tourism model and Jefferson's is a hot hot brand smooth Ambler two is got you know they're they've penetrated a lot of really good markets so they made some interesting moves and I think they did them at you know whoever negotiated their deals I think probably did a very good job for them. Yeah, you know Nick or Brian Do you kind of see this as is Fred said it is this PR know kind of like crawling back into the market a little bit. You know if you know if you got rid of wild turkey at the wrong time because you thought it was a you know, basically a bad stock and you sold when the you sold out when is low and you know you bought it when is high like it they tried to like flip the script for themselves here. Well 22:00 I think they they definitely trying to do that. But they're they're filling their roster with D league players instead of what they lost. And I think their problem is going to be capacity. I mean, how can they increase production of any of those without huge distilleries to be able to turn this out? I see that is their issue. I mean, they they can get some from rabbit hole and they can get some from smooth Ambler. But that's a ways off. 22:28 Jefferson's is still just bottling in Crestwood. Right? I mean, they don't have a whole lot of capacity of their own. They're still sourcing. So where's it going to come from? So I see it is problematic there, they're buying the league players, and they can't, they're not going to be able to increase production. And I think that to kind of piggyback on the sourcing, and that's, you know, probably the comments that were, at least that I saw, you know, here in there, with, of course, the focus then Jefferson's in the in the bourbon world. 23:00 With respect to this acquisition, you know that's the question thing about high West with Ambler there, they've got distilleries, they've got the that kind of capability, you know with Jefferson's for example, it really is the brand that's bought the distribution you know, the labels that that kind of thing. So kind of to Brian's point it's that you know, it's that want to get back in the game want to get in in the game. I think there's still a lot of growth potential in general, but it's what is that you know, what are you going to do with that so now they've got two brands now they've got a pull out from you know, pull out from behind them probably invest quite a bit more Jefferson's to like they go from a company that didn't necessarily didn't necessarily have the ability to walk into a company like brown Forman and and strike a deal for 5000 barrels of stock. I'm not saying that's going to happen now if you're in our carbon now printer card. I mean, trees owners got muscle like NASA castle brand was is like 24:00 You know, that was like, 24:02 you know, a triple A baseball team, you know, in comparison to our car, who would be the Boston Red Sox or the Yankees, you know? So the buying power that they have to be on the source market. I mean, it just went up. And because they can, they can strike deals that he could never dream of before when they start sourcing from wild turkey that or MGP, which, you know, they they own the facilities after, after Seager. I'm sad to shutter all their stuff. 24:35 They got the facility in Lawrenceburg, Indiana, and DIZO. got, you know, Crown Royal and they're like, you know, who got the better end of the deal on that because they can never make Pernod Ricard can never make that Lawrenceburg, Indiana distillery work, and they sold it to LDI. And that, you know, I became kind of like the source capital but so that would be ironic if they end up sourcing from wild turkey. 25:00 GP. 25:02 And I guess another question that kind of throw at you all about this is do we see, this is going to be a lot tougher game going into this, you know, we had Trey on the on the podcast before I last year and we talked to him he said like, Is it getting harder now with sourcing, like our people kind of trend in your territory or you are in had all these relationships for and now you've got people that are on your turf barrel prices are going up. How can you maintain, you know, with not actually having a distillery that can pump significant volume? You know, is this was this a good buy for per node like it? It's That's a tough question. I think. I think Brian kind of alluded to that and I wouldn't say that they're, you know, deep play or anything like that. I I still am a fan of Jeffersons. I still like the whiskey they put out. However, in regards of an operation, it might have been a kind of a weird acquisition in my opinion. Anybody have any thoughts of like, is 26:00 Is ditches they don't actually do a lot of distilling or heavy distilling, like Was it a good acquisition? Or is it just something that you know as Nick said to it, just maybe a brand recognition thing that you have to understand like this business is driven by brands like we look at things from where the liquid liquid comes from, but this business is really driven by like a name and they're like it or not, whether you if you if you follow it or not, the Jeffersons ocean is one of the one of the best like marketing ploys of of the last 1015 years and American whiskey. Now I remember asking, I remember asking Trey for to see a man manifest that was barrels at that it was going to punch me but you know, you've got you have some people who disbelieve in that it's the ocean barrel concept, but he does put them out there and it's been one of the best like my 27:00 And the conversations that are marketing boys, I've turned into conversations. 27:05 At least in my world, everyone's like is a real? Is it real? Is it you know, so it's it's one of those things that it's probably just just on that alone. And the fact that Jeffersons is, is everywhere. 27:19 I think it was a great, great acquisition for PR now. So there's another comment here from Dan wall ski, you know, he sees Jefferson's brand is probably worth the investment. However, he wouldn't be surprised to see it now eventually start getting separated from Kentucky artisan and then becoming like a visitor destination of its own now, it's a pretty good theory, I think for for what this could potentially be and where could go to think about the Kentucky owl situation, for example, you know, immediately it's the plans for a gigantic, gigantic park in distillery, you know, so are we going to see something like that? Is that going to be the growth plan for her, not in this 28:00 Or are they just going to keep you know, continuing with the brand as it is and sourcing and kind of doing business as usual? Be curious to see how that changes over time. 28:10 For sure, and I think you know, there's there's also something that kind of it kind of jogged my memory when I think about this when we look at you know, we had Corky was last week's podcast, we've had coffee from rabbit hole on and there's always like this. A lot of these CEOs they say a lot of the same things of like, we're never going to sell this is going to remain in the family forever. And then it's like, is it though like is it like is it puts a fat check in front of your face? Like it's got to be pretty hard to turn down. There's always a number. I agree. I think you have to look at you know, let's take a look at at those two particular brands. Kobe had a lot of investors. 28:56 Corky did all this with his own money and he's got 29:00 Trust lined up and everything, it always comes down to the money. And look man, I'm in business. I don't come from money. I've had to work for everything I've gotten. And when you sit down in a room with with money people, you know, they always want something. So, you know, you give up something to give up shares of your company or something to get what you want out of them. But this, you know, there comes a point where they're like, okay, we've had a good time on this fried where's our payout? We went out and that we want to cash out and so everything depends upon how your business structure is when you have these small distillers 29:41 you know one other one other in games is that like, this is Yeah, no, I agree. And I think for anybody that is ever getting into business like you always want to think like yes I do for the passion. I do it for the for the joy of what it is, but at the end of the day, if somebody puts a big fat check in front, your face 30:00 That's, that's part of the American dream too. So you can't you can't discount that. So, you know, as we kind of almost kind of switch gears a little bit. And this is one that I actually kind of like this one because Fred sent this a little bit before we started here. And this was the fact that 30:18 PBR is getting ready to start making their very own whiskey. So I will drop the link here into the chat. I'm also going to drop it into 30:28 the YouTube chat as well so you can kind of see it, but really what it is, is PBR is now making a whiskey that's been aged for a complete total of five seconds. So that should probably already kind of get your blood flowing a little bit. So they have recently talked about their have a new, hard sell to it's coming out with a percent. But now they're actually going to be doing a 40% whiskey. It's already 40% ABV that has been aged for five seconds. So Fred kind of talked about this one Fred does this. Make your blood boil a little bit 31:00 Yeah, I have two words for PBR. Fuck you. 31:07 Yeah, I think it's I think it's a, you know, PBR is trying to be trendy and they got some headlines with this. But you know, 31:20 given that we're, we have a brand that's raised, basically repackaged Zi Ma, taking over the space of 31:30 millennial consumption. And actually really, Why call penetrates the entire world right now. 31:37 Anything is possible with what will be the next big thing and PBR has got a big brand behind it and I just, I just wish they would, you know, 31:47 this is this is a mockery of whiskey so i just i hate everything about it. 31:55 Nick, do you share any the same the same feelings, you know, I 32:00 Always look, I do think it's interesting, it really created a buzz I think people who may not normally think about whiskey or bourbon or what they really are, you know, I think that just that buzz about that it's going to go into a container into an oak container, it's going to be aged for five seconds or, you know, whatever they end up doing with it, if anything, that's an awareness, you know, piece of will have number one, how good is it going to be, you know, so for somebody that is just doing shots at a bar, they never think about anything, you know, as far as you know, whether they like things that are you know, higher quality, you know, longer aged, etc. What am I really drinking? Where does it get its color from things of that nature? It may cause some people to kind of get curious about what's really there. And I think once people start getting educated reach the point of, you know, anybody who's listening to this or watching this right now, you know, you're obviously this is much farther behind, you know, where your journey started, or, you know, much farther behind where you are now where your journey started, but I think that's the interesting 33:00 part about it is kind of just that awareness. And what's probably a younger crowd that's going to be more, you know, 33:07 in tune with this or tasting this or whatever the case might be, you know, where it might make some people curious about exploring a little further and eventually getting to the point where they respect what's going on with the actual, you know, creation and aging and things of that nature. So I think it's interesting I don't hate it in the same way that I guess that Fred does. You know, Willie succeed. I don't know. You know, it's it's different than the beer in that sense of, you know, the beer. I see the market for this. I'm not so sure. I guess we'll see. Yeah, I think you look at it, like everybody wants to try to create something. And you know, what's PBR? PBR is not supposed to be some glorious luxury brand, right? Like this is supposed to be like bottom shelf like how like, How fast can we get this out the door and you know, really just churn product. And this might be following that same exact suit. I'm not too sure if this is supposed to be a a premium product by name. 34:00 Yeah, they're not trying to be premium and I guess from my standpoint it PBR five second whiskey has no impact on me whatsoever and I don't care about it. But I see where it's it's going like like Nick said it's going to be at the is going to be at the bar for a shot and hopefully it overtakes 34:22 you know, some of these other flavored whiskeys which I don't care about either as the you know, the new hot shot for college age through mid 20s. And then there's going to be a market for that and there always will be in my day it was Yeager Meister and you know, that's awful. 34:42 So, you know, knock knock your socks off, go ahead and do a five second whiskey. Try to sell it by by the shot to 24 year olds and I'll keep drinking what I've been drinking. 34:55 So you know, you talked about flavored whiskey there. Have you all seen the the new phenomenon of 35:00 screwball the peanut butter flavored whiskey. Okay, I think I had it first at your house to tell you the truth. But it started it's starting to catch on now like it's out here. Now I see it here. It's I mean, it's in all the forums, people are talking about it. It's like It's like the white glove whiskey right now. That was the first time I had it was bourbon and beyond last year. So I don't want to call myself a trendsetter. But you know, we did a 35:28 shout out to Tony from keg and bottle who actually gave me that probably about a year and a half ago. And he said, Kenny, I kid you not, this is going to be the next fireball. And so I mean, I guess a year and a half ago, he gave it to me and now all of a sudden, like people are buying and it's taken off a little bit, but you gotta like peanut butter, that's for sure. Because Yeah, definitely definitely has that. That flavor to it. Okay, then liked it or hate it. 35:55 All right, right position. Yeah. So So back to back to work. 36:00 whiskey. You know, there was something else that came out a few weeks ago on on geek calm, talking about the artificial tongue. Do y'all remember this? So I'll talk about it. So the artificial tongue can taste the light. Subtle, subtle, subtle differences. Wait, hold on. Wait, hold on. Okay, I got it. You don't have the art. I wonder what the artificial Tom thinks about the five second whiskey? I don't know. That's a good question. 36:26 I don't know if that's what it's really made for, though. Who knows? Right? I guess we'll find out one of these days. But this was built by Scottish engineers and it's ultimately made to sit there and try to find counterfeit frauds or anything like that. That's on the on the open market. And of course, you know, we talked about it with bourbon, you know, having counterfeit Pappy all the time and stuff like that. However, you're going to see this even larger scale in the scotch world as well. So Fred, what are your kind of thoughts on this artificial tongue? Well, I've actually talked to 37:00 Quite a few people about this who are like in a tasers role and I think most everyone knows I do a lot of tasting. And I think it's, I think it's great if it's not like, you know, stealing 37:16 that I'm curious to see like the data that like goes into it like how they how they create it, because I know of one like, you know algorithm that's out there that's been taking people's tasting notes and applying them to basically putting a collective 37:37 algorithm together of like white to say, from people various like if you're, if you're writing tasting notes on Reddit, or if you have tasting notes on a blog or anything that's scalable, there is now a there's some spiders out there that's out there taking him and they're applying them elsewhere. So, robot tasting, so if it's something like that, I'm not a fan of it, but if it's something that really 38:00 actually adds to the, you know, our world. I'm all for it. But, you know, the thing is, is like Canada, it's the right now their marketing is like spotting fakes. And that's great. But I wonder what their next iteration will be. Because, you know, 38:23 eventually it's going to be about like, you know, this is how you taste. So this is what you're going to like. And, you know, I think that's cool. Yeah, I think this could definitely lead to a lot of different things. I think. I think finding the counterfeits is a, it's kind of like a it's I don't it's like a gateway. Like, it's, I don't think it's going to have a large purpose at first. Like, I think you need to cover a little bit more blanket area here when you're trying to figure out exactly what can you do with this technology? It's got to be a little bit more uniform, a little more universal of actually how to catch on into the point where, you know, you know, Fred, you taste a lot, however, like, is this something where it's like, okay, 39:00 We've got six panelists that are humans and then our seventh is this AI machine, right? To make sure like, everything works like this out of this distillery, like, you know, we've been going for utilizing people for the longest time to you know, knows and tastes and actually understand what this what this is supposed to taste like and what typical batch it goes in, but we're human like what is human it's, it's you have error error is built in versus a computer. Whereas if you're feeding a data, like it's just computations, so you know, knicker or Brian, like, do you kind of see this like, much more spreading its way out into? Maybe distilleries should start looking into this time of technology as well. So I'm just waiting for the movie where artificial tongues go rogue, and one of them decides is going to go and replace everybody's whiskey with like rapid each whiskey because it's got the perfect profile and there's just insanity and chaos. You know. 39:59 I'm visually just look 40:00 is like little tongues across the street like just around like overtaken a rogue tongues. Yeah, rogue tongue, I think there could be great applications for it. You know, they just the question is, is it going to replace, not necessarily master distillers but you know, people that you know blend in in, you know, testing that takes place, you know, within distilleries, and producers, you think about kind of that non scientific nature of so much of this and even just tasting notes, like you're talking about, I mean, the very non scientific process in the sense and that's one of the kind of magical things about whiskey, you know, would we, you know, if there was inside each label or on each bottle, kind of like a very specific profile of a particular whiskey or almost a map that was scientifically put together, you know, would that be something that, you know, would enhance the experience to people want that, you know, is that the end result of what we're even, you know, kind of dealing with here? I think it's interesting from that aspect at the same time, I do think one of the 41:00 great things about whiskey is kind of the human and the art of whiskey. So it's almost a kind of a weird dichotomy of technology and, and kind of that, you know, our full human interaction that, you know, you don't want to see that necessarily overtaken but you do want to, you know, you do want to add you value when you can, you know, there's so many whiskies are so expensive, that I could definitely see a, you know, a value proposition for somebody to say, Hey, is this something I might like, you know, for example, or how do we design a better, you know, a better whiskey. I'm just really I'm really excited that there's been tech applied in 41:38 a valuable way usually, tech people apply it in the most into rapid aging or something that everyone's trying to fix that when there's really not a problem other than waiting. 41:51 But I'm just I'm just glad that somebody in the tech world is applying, applying their know how and skills to a very 42:00 particular area that we do probably could use some consistency. And I agree with Nick and I'll take it a step further though i mean i think while it's it's beneficial in some respects, to have this AI tasting because the AI is not can be thrown off with what you had for lunch or what you had for dinner. It's but it's on the other hand, it's going to be much more sterile of, 42:28 of an experience of a description of what you're supposed to be tasting. And so much as Nick said, is so much of drinking whiskey is the experience and it can change if you've got a steak versus something else. And it can change in the mood and I've been doing it presentation Fred did. Music can affect what you're what you're experiencing, and AI is never going to get to well Famous last words as never going to 42:58 have the experience 43:00 That you can have with whiskey and if I've got a piece of Gouda that I'm eating with it, AI is not going to be able to tell me again Famous last words how that's going to affect what what I'm experiencing at that moment. So it's it's nice but it's to me it's sort of like a party trick and we all know that Jim Beam or somebody would hack it to give like something like a legion like a 95 43:28 so now Brian, I'm picturing like, VR goggles, some scent thing going on here. 43:34 headphones with your favorite music, you know, you can certainly get right there. tastes and smells right at your at your disposal. Yeah, you see, a few Metallica, Metallica does that they have one of their tasters played various have everybody put on, you know, special headphones. And they have to taste like five different whiskeys. It's all their whiskey but they 44:00 People say like the whiskeys taste different based on the music they're listening to, and that there's news, new evidence that suggests that what you listen to has a much deeper effect on on how you taste. So I am definitely on board with what Brian just said there that the AI will never be able to pick out a more of a human element at least and probably in our lifetime. I think. I mean, I don't know, I think I think you're right, I don't think it's gonna have that human element to it. However, I think there's there's a lot of potential of what this could do in regards of thinking that you want to create more, say a brand that has a very, very specific kind of character. And so you take, you take one outside of a particular barrel, then you get a chemical breakdown of like the 30 different things that are in it. And it's like, you know, x percentage of something versus white percentage or another, and then you kind of figure out exactly Okay, I need this kind of percentages, and they all start equal now. 45:00 Alright, dump these barrels together. And now we eat. Now we kind of see this, this sort of specific profile that could be coming. So could be completely different in a way of building new brands versus just sitting there and saying like, okay, we'll just go and make sure this is this is this is not Pappy. This is just regular WO Weller. And you know, the thing about checking if something's fake or not, most the time when it matters, it's sealed, and you want to keep it that way. So that application is a bit of a struggle, you know, because you're probably rarely going to find a purchase contingent on you know, opening, pouring, tasting or testing or whatever the case might be. Yeah, how would you like to be the guy who just dropped $1.5 million on a bottle of McKenna gets a test and like, Oh, yeah, now. This is actually Glenfiddich, 12 year old, you almost don't want to know. 45:55 Like, no, just keep those things away. 45:59 Yeah, there's this 46:00 Definitely a bad side to that to it you know it as we start coming going down this path you know there's something news that happened last week. You know, there has been a tear on the secondary market lately like there's just groups are disappearing left and right. 46:17 The 2019 Kentucky's edge bourbon conference and festival pairs all things Kentucky with bourbon. It takes place October 4 and fifth at venues throughout Covington in Newport Kentucky. Kentucky's edge features of bourbon conference music tastings pairings tourists and and artists and market Kentucky's edge. 2019 is where bourbon begins. Tickets and information can be found online at Kentucky's edge.com. 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Their Dragon's milk beer is America's number one selling bourbon barrel aged out in 2005. They apply their expertise from brewing and began distilling beer barrel finished whiskey began production 2012 and rock house was the club is featuring it in their next box. The barrels come from Tennessee get filled with Dragon's milk we are twice the mature bourbon is finished and those very same barrels. Rocco's whiskey club is a whiskey the Month Club on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories from craft distillers across the US. 48:00 Along with two bottles of hard to find whiskey rackhouses boxes are full of cool merchandise that they ship out every two months to members in over 40 states. Go to rackhouse whiskey club com to check it out and try a bottle of beer barrel bourbon and beer barrel rye. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 48:20 There has been a tear on the secondary market lately like there's just groups are disappearing left and right. And even the secondary backup BSM group that was over on me we may way whatever it is, is that's now gone as well. So it's not like it's just Facebook, it looks like this is like a virus that's continually trying to spread and it's just getting knocked out sort of wherever it goes. Now don't get me wrong, there's still a few groups that are remaining You know, they're probably around like the two to 3000 member Mark but there's nowhere near even on the bsm on me was like almost 10,000 or above. So it seems that we're everybody flocks to 49:00 These are just getting can left and right. 49:03 Now I've tried to reach out haven't really heard anything of in regards of why it happened or anything like that. However, it just seems there's there's no safe haven right now. Do you all kind of see this as is this can be the new norm? Or is it just like, it's just hot for the moment? We'll have to wait ride this wave, and then maybe here in another three months, will we back up to where it was, is going to happen. It's just a matter of what in when. And it might change over time. You know, as we're seeing right now, it's certainly changing how the communication is done. Probably the bigger question is if we have these call it a period of a drought, for example, which is interesting, because this is happening, you know, before we start seeing some of the big fall releases and things of that nature, you've got to ask yourself is is that going to change the the primary market, you know, because how much of the primary market is driven by what ends up happening on the secondary market? You know, so a lot of people buying you know, basically 50:00 The idea that they're going to be able to turn around and sell for a profit, if that is no longer in place or that you know, you knock out 50% or some in reasonable percentage of the, you know, people that are able to do that or see their ability to do that. Does that start driving prices down on the primary? I think it'll be interesting to see how that you know, kind of goes over the the upcoming months here. Yeah, I think we're going to see this in Natalie. That is, I think Brad Atlas had a post that was on Blake's group, this past week of, you know, the the new each Taylor amaranth has been album release. However, nobody can figure out what a price should be on it because there's no room there is no place to auction off and figure out what's going to be even today. There were I think, like 72 birthday Bourbons that were sold at old forester distillery downtown to kind of commemorate the old forester birthday bourbon and George bourbon Browns birthday. However, I haven't seen a whole heck of a lot of them show up on anywhere. So you know, this 51:00 Is this could be a sign of the times that, you know, hopefully you're buying it to hold on to it because finding the outlets to sell it is getting a lot harder now. It's definitely interesting. 51:12 I, you know, I, I'm beta testing an app right now and I've been asked if, like, people can do that and I'm like, Well, you know, I have that I have to, like, seriously look at that now. And I'm thinking of like the potential liability associated with it. I'm like, 51:29 you know, maybe you don't know maybe in your chat your own little private chat group, which I can't see but 51:37 it's, it's fascinating to me. How this this domino effect and I would love I would love to sit down with Mark Zuckerberg interview request I put out many times by the way, never that I have a probably, but I would love to find out if like he's had a hand in or some on Facebook, haven't you know, I would love to hear the rationale behind it. But I know they 52:00 said some things but there's more to it, there's gotta be more to it. It just doesn't. just doesn't make sense to me, especially with this new, this, this new social media site dumping it so quickly. It just, it's odd. Just, it's gonna be coming down from somewhere else. I mean, fame makes you wonder if brands are involved. Sorry, brands, you know, if we've got brands or somebody specific, you know, with intent, you know, and is watching this more closely, and specifically, I think that's a great question. And they have been watching these markets for for some time because they would even like, you know, price their whiskey to, to combat it, but I would, I would argue that it may not be a brand behind it, but a very powerful retailer. You know, who wants that money 52:58 and knows that that money 53:00 He's out there they want they want your dollar. They don't want you to buy it, you know, SRP and then flip it. I mean, there's any number of areas this could go, there's any number of people who would like to see it stop. 53:13 But I do know this. I, I know that most of the like the state authorities don't really care. You know, I mean, I've talked to him about it, and they're really care, you know, but like Texas does, Texas cares, Pennsylvania. All the control states actually. But 53:33 you know, this is doesn't seem to be like, any kind of state leading it. 53:39 Yeah, I mean, I don't know. The control states, they don't want competition. And Sylvania doesn't want to know, what cracks me up about Pennsylvanians. Every year they send out a press release, and oh, we lost like three or four of them this year, or one was broken in and transport. And I'm like, wow, I bet it suddenly got lost on the 54:00 The state majority leaders front still front step and you know the bottle accidentally broke after it was consumed by the directors house in our at the directors house and me is just it's all kinds of silly with with Pennsylvania 54:15 well let's control states in general but you know I think when we when we look at just the secondary market you know we've talked about it in regards of like how this built a culture This is probably how bourbon has a mass to how big it is because most people wouldn't even know about a lot of brands if they didn't see them on the secondary markets begin with I mean it's we all have our stories so I think it'd be it'd be interesting to kind of see where this is going to go you know me when I look at it I think this was this is a critical and crucial part of really what made bourbon what it is today. And you know, there's going to have to be somewhere where people can basically value this as sort of currency maybe it's trading You know, I'm, I don't like to sit there and say like, yeah, go get a birthday bar, birthday bourbon, 450 bucks and go try to sell for 300 like 55:00 I'm not all about that However, it's like, if you get a birthday bourbon 450 yet, you can't get a George t stag this year. And that's just part of the trade. And that's great, right? That's, that's something that you are able to get your hands on, you can kind of trade your way there, you know, and start with a paperclip unit with a plane. But that's that's essentially like where I like to be able to see this because it's all about getting the, you know, the bourbon that you want in your hands and kind of how to get it. But yeah, I mean, I think you're right, but for to the point of like this, this help kind of like spread the enthusiasm. 55:33 I know like the people in the groups, if you if you put it on scale, you're looking at maybe at most like 2 million or something, at least the various groups that I knew of, and that's not a lot in the grand scheme of things. Those people who are like everybody's influencer in their families in their workplace, and they would be the people out there talking about bourbon so and it was the these groups kind of became community 56:00 Bs and I was, you know, I, I love them. You know, I love them because we're actually I love them five years ago, you know, they they changed quite a bit in the last couple years, but they were very, very engaging. You can talk history, you can talk about who distilled water like, I mean, I remember having a conversation with someone educating them about Woodrow Wilson, which if you don't know, he was a master distiller, it's it's a well or for a very short period. But you know, he made some good whiskey. And so I guess a, you know, as we start thinking of other ways of how is the bourbon market being hindered, you know, there's been finally some data that's now coming out about the US whiskey exports and the tariffs that are now happening over in the EU. So when we start looking at this, you know, I look at some of the data here and I'll again, I'll drop the link in the chat for folks that want to be able to see this. You can see all these links in our show notes as well. 57:00 But the distilled spirits council came and said that there was a 21% decrease from June 2018 to June to 2019. That was all lost sales after shipments to Europe plummeted. So we've got the data coming in. 57:19 You know, I know Fred, you're you're kind of close to this. Is there a way that things could eventually bounce back to help bourbon brains grow? And I will always say it again that if somebody says, Oh, yeah, this is great, because it means more bourbon on the shelves for me. You're in the wrong here. Okay. Think bigger. Well, there have been some really nice trade related things that have happened like in a couple weeks, I was invited to to meet the European Union ambassador to the United States. And they're celebrating scotch Irish and bourbon whiskey, the you know, the unique designations of them and like all the all the country 58:00 kind of coming together in Washington DC to celebrate this. And so, from an industry perspective, you know, they have the ears of their legislators, their ambassadors, their Parliament or whatever. 58:14 You know, Brexit also, you know, through a wrinkle into it. So in an odd way Brexit could be 58:23 you know, it could be good for for the tariffs, 58:27 you know, for that particular portion. But, yeah, so those are a couple of the good things but in in all seriousness, you know, they're not letting up you know, Europe is still very hell bent on applying pressure. And you know, there's been reports that they want to apply more pressure you know, in in in mitch mcconnell areas so I just, I just don't see this you know, being good and it's in it's shut out small brands like the topping Creek completely. And Kenny, I know you're a brand owner. 59:01 You know, you want to, let's say you want to open them. You have a small shop in Poland, who absolutely loves to show loves you wants to make you his number one whiskey in his store, you won't find a distributor in that entire country that'll take your call. You know, it's just because of tariffs, they don't want to pass that on it. They're just not taking calls from small American lyst companies. So 59:25 yeah, and I think this is this is, as I mentioned before, I mean, this is so much bigger than just what you can get here in the shelves like this is this is trying to grow the category as a whole to start taking on scotch as as, you know, the whiskey in the market. And we can't get to that level scotch unless you have a fair playing field, you know, across the board to be able to say like, okay, like, let's get this in the hands of people in Australia and Zimbabwe and China and, you know, in the EU as well, like, how can we grow this as a whole. And this is really where the tariffs are going to start really being that that first sort of 1:00:00 Hand slap, I guess you could say is, if you're trying to reach a new market, you know, all of a sudden, if you have a, if you got a 30 or $40 bottle here in the States, I mean, you're, you're looking at doubling that, if not coming close to triple as you start getting, you know, already just distribution overseas, but now the tariffs are adding a lot more to it. And if you can't compete with a, you know, 50 $60 bottle of scotch, then you're, you know, you're already setting yourself up for failure. And so, you know, as we start kind of rounding this out, you know, Nick and, Brian, I kind of want to get your sort of thoughts on this, if you have any sort of inkling of what do you kind of see next? Maybe, if it's an election year, is there anything that could change? You know, after that as well, Nick, you go ahead and go first. I was gonna I was gonna say the same. 1:00:53 You know, I, it's, I think it's tough to say what's going to happen going forward. I'd be really curious. 1:01:00 To see, you know, what small brands are seeing the impact of this right now? 1:01:06 Immediately, 1:01:09 you know, like anything, I think there's the initial shock of it, but then, you know, demand is demand. So if that means to 20% increase in price or whatever the case might be, if the demand is there 1:01:21 over time might cause that to, you know, to become a non issue. But, but it's a barrier of entry as a starting point. So when you think about bourbon growing on a global scale, and the potential it has on a global scale, you know, certainly that's a pretty 1:01:40 pretty immediate, you know, block of have taken that first step for a lot of you know, a lot of these brands on that larger scale. You know, what if you see this go on for a period of time, then suddenly it goes away, you know, do you have the opposite impact you have suddenly a flood of, you know, a flood of opportunity, a flood 1:02:00 brands that are saying, Okay, now this opportunity just opened up, we're going to put pressure on actually doing this. Because if you think about all the brands that are out there, especially the small ones, how many of them are actually taking those steps right now to get overseas? I'd be curious out of this 1000 or 1200 distilleries. You know, in the US, for example, how many you're saying, Let's get on the shelves in Europe, or let's get on the shelves in Australia or Japan or whatever the case might be? China, what's the market like over there? But it will be interesting to see how it plays out, you know, like anything, it's it's a global economy, we're going to see the push and pull. And I think ultimately, the long term play for bourbon for us whiskey is to be probably bigger than scotch, quite frankly, I personally think is better, you know, so there's no really no reason why it can't be bigger or at least just as big it's just a matter of time and what you know, things are going to have to move and shift around and what dominoes are going to have to fall in when 1:03:00 can't allow that to, you know, to really gain some momentum and happen. Bourbons got a long way before it catches scotch. And I'll tell you like, this is why this is why the tariffs are so frustrating to me is that, you know, bourbon became a unique product to the United States largely in part because they were trying to get special designation so they would not get tariffs after world to the country, the rest of the world basically tariff bourbon and open the open the markets for scotch to help the United Kingdom recover from World War Two because, you know, they were bombed and everything, they took a much greater hit on the physical real estate of their country. And, and so they were places like Argentina, you know, was terrifying us like 200% United Kingdom actually had like limits of bourbon that they would allow in the country for a given year. And when they would actually when the bourbon distillers would push to like, you know, have exports. You know, the French basically came back and said, 1:04:00 Why would we give you any kind of anything carefree when bourbon doesn't mean anything to us? Like you have no special designation, of course the French, you know being the home of cognac and Champagne has a very unique understanding of like designation for alcohol. And and so in 1958, they started the bourbon industry started banding together and working to make bourbon, a unique product in the United States. And after that in 1964, they then had the ability to negotiate and free trade agreements to peel away tar

What happens when you get master distillers from two largest rivaling brands together? Actually, some pretty good jokes. Fred Noe, Master Distiller at Jim Beam, and Jeff Arnett, Master Distiller at Jack Daniel’s, take the stage at Bourbon and Beyond to field questions asked by Fred Minnick. They talk about BBQ, celebrities, mash bills, the Lincoln County Process, and if Jack Daniels is actually a bourbon. Bourbon and Beyond 2019 will take place September 20th through the 22nd so if you want to be there in person to hear sessions like today’s podcast, go get yours at BourbonandBeyond.com. Show Partners: The University of Louisville now has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at business.louisville.edu/onlinespirits.  In 2013, Joe Beatrice launched Barrell Craft Spirits without a distillery or defied conventional wisdom. To this day, his team sources and blends exceptional barrels from established producers and bottles at cask strength. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Check out Bourbon on the Banks in Frankfort, KY on August 24th. Visit BourbonontheBanks.org. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about drinking in moderation. What kind of music have your brands been part of? What is your BBQ connection? What is the history of your distillery? What is your mash bill? What is your proof point off the still? What do you think of the Lincoln County process? How do you train your tour guides? Tell us about Gentleman Jack. Tell us about Jim Beam. Is Jack Daniels a bourbon? Do you ever feel competitive against each other? What does your average day look like? What was it like to hang out with Mila Kunis? What celebrities are connected to Jack Daniels? How often do you introduce new products? 0:00 Hey everybody. If you have a bachelor's degree and live anywhere in the United States, there's now a way for you to take your bourbon education to the next level. The distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville is an online program that can be completed in as little as 15 weeks and will prepare you for the business side of the spirits industry. It's offered by the AA CSP accredited college of business. And this certificate was developed in partnership with industry experts to be one of a kind and it's going to prepare you for your next adventure. Learn more about this online program at business.louisville.edu/online 0:36 spirits Why is that? Why your barbecue sauce the Jim Beam barbecue sauce tastes so good. America's Got Jim Beam in it that's why 0:47 you made for it. And have you had the jab he had the jack daniels barbecue sauce. I'm sure they do. Um, no. I mean, if you had a VDD like Tyson Yeah. 1:00 add Whiskey and anything it's good for 1:16 everybody welcome back. This is Episode 214 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your host Kenny and buckle in strap up whatever it is because we've got a lot of news to roll through. Kentucky al has announced the release of batch number three rye this Kentucky out Kentucky straight rye whiskey carries a 10 year age statement and will be bottled at 114 proof in the press release Dixon dead man who's been on the show previously and episodes 27 and 160 has assumed the title of Kentucky Al's master blender, but he commented, there is a lot of older juice and right number three, but it's the 10 year old stocks that really give it that richer, thicker, syrupy mouthful and bring the blend forward. And as you know by listening to this 2:00 That the youngest whiskey in a blend is the one has to be shown in the label. So this will be making its way out to major markets across the US this month with a suggested retail price of wait for it $199 and 99 cents. Last week I had the opportunity of joining the fine folks over a liquor barn here in Louisville to select the very first of not just any barrels, but the very first barrels from a newly launched single barrel program. From bullet bourbon. We had the opportunity to tour the grounds and do some blending for fun. And during that blending process. There was one that just blew me away. I picked it up and I just knows that and I couldn't set it down. I just kept smelling this bourbon and I kept tasting and I told the master Blender whatever is going on here with sample number six. Just give me this single barrel and call it a day. Come to find out. They gave us samples of 20 plus year stencil well a stock that they had sitting around to just have some fun with blending. But you better believe I took no part in 3:00 lending that in savored every last drop. It was a tease, but a special treat nonetheless to have that experience with those folks there. Then we headed down to the barrel tasting room where we had different barrels and different bottles with different mash bills and different strains to come away with a total of three different barrels. And these will be available at liquor barn locations across the state of Kentucky in a few months, and I'll be sure to let you know when they do drop. Last week we had the opportunity to head over to Bardstown, Kentucky, where we were in a very unique opportunity to select two barrels of Elijah Craig from six that were rolled out. For anyone that has been on a quick pic before you know that three is usually the standard. We are fortunate that the heaven Hill team pulled some strings and got us a six barrel lot. We came away with an 11 and a 12 year old bourbon and both were just killer at barrel proof. But we also proved it down to us bottling proof of 94 just to make sure it's still held up and of course it did look forward to these going on sale to our 4:00 Patreon community in the upcoming few months, and a special shout out to keg and bottle in Southern California for making this all happen. Find out more about our barrel pics and what we have going on@patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit and you can find out more and get bourbon delivered to your door from keg and bottle go to keg the letter in bottle.com. And speaking of barrel pics, we had one go on sale this week, our riff you like a hurricane from new roof is going to be available to purchase to our Patreon community. Now you've heard it on the podcast already but we will be in Frankfurt at bourbon on the banks next week, August 24. Go get your tickets. We hope to see you there because we're going to have our own booth will be talking about bourbon pursuit. However, we will also be sampling our pursuit series for all those who haven't gotten the memo yet. And speaking of pursuit series, it's now official. We will be bottling our first Kentucky bourbon next month that will go on sale sometime in the October timeframe. And we're ecstatic to be the first time 5:00 let you know that we have partnered with Will it distillery to bring this experience to you? I know it's still surreal to even hear myself say that we're partnering with Will it and we purchased two barrels of their high rye bourbon recipe that will be bottled as pursuit series. Cats drink non chill filtered the works, you know how it is in this high recipe. It's not even available to liquor stores or distributors that are selecting their own bullet family private state pics right now. So we feel super excited and super lucky to be able to bring this as a one off offering of what we're able to do. And we selected not just one but two of these barrels two months ago and they just landed our bottling facility this week. We're going to be the first independent bottle of Willett distillate and who knows how many years and we've got more news to announce with this but we're gonna have to make you wait just a little bit longer until we cross our T's and dot our I's. Now today's podcast it was recorded last year at bourbon and beyond in 2018. 6:00 Since we were there, sort of in a passive capacity, we had one session, but we didn't have the ability to kind of record. We got this after the fact and that means we don't have any video. So if you're watching this on YouTube or Facebook, I'm sorry. It's like we're going back one and a half years before we started doing video. But if you're on the road or you're running or you're just listening to audio as usual, then just continue as normal. But as you know, verb and beyond is just around the corner. It's taking place next month in Louisville, Kentucky from September 20 through the 22nd. The festival has expanded from two to three days and you will get the chance to see a lot of familiar faces there. Ryan and I will both be moderating panels. And you've also got the entire roundtable making a presence. Jordan from breaking bourbon, Brian from sipping corn and Blake from bourbon are all leading their own panels and workshops. Of course, you're gonna have Fred Minnick there too. It's an opportunity to drink some bourbon, listen to some bands, go listen to a bourbon workshop or seminar then go back out there and rock out was the headliners. 7:00 This is covered in a single ticket price. So if you want to be there in person to hear sessions like today's podcast, go get yours now at bourbon and beyond.com. We'll see you in Louisville. Also, let's toast a bourbon to the weather gods and hope for no rain and clear skies this year. Now, let's see what Joe from barrel bourbon has for us today. And then you've got Fred Minnick with above the char. 7:25 Hey everyone, Joe here again. In 2013. I launched barrell craft spirits without a distillery and defied conventional wisdom. To this day, my team and I sourcing blend exceptional barrels from established producers and bottle a cast strength. You can find it on the shelves at your nearest retail store. 7:41 I'm Fred making this is above the charm. This past week in the Philippines, a lawmaker put forth a bill to ban the sale serving and consumption of alcohol and alcohol beverages and streets, pathways, plazas, alleys, sidewalks, parks and parking areas. They're building 8:00 leaf is is that this will be a proactive response in the growing problems of alcoholism in the Philippine. And this is a quote directly from a doctor, their alcoholism and violence have clearly become key public health issues that require urgent attention. Hence, it is imperative for the country to initiate a national policy to curb alcohol consumption in public places in quote. So here's the thing Philippines, this has been done before. And it didn't work, prohibition in the United States basically open the world to the mafia. And it also showed that it didn't really curb drinking at all. What it did do was it increased the sale of bad liquor, and people would die from drinking the equivalent of ethanol or gasohol. And today when we see areas where there are dry counties, you have moonshiners, so people will find a way to drink 9:00 And I'll also say this, that the efforts to ban alcohol or alcohol advertising, they're growing. And they're growing because we have never really been able to figure out as a society, how to drink responsibly. So, when you're getting your fellas together your girlfriends together, think about this for a moment, you could be an example used of drinking responsibly. What does that mean? Well, Google drinking in moderation, you definitely don't want to get behind the wheel. To me, a big part of drinking in moderation comes down to the taste. I like to sip and savor and analyze every single molecule that's hitting my palate. And that's been a big reason why I've been able to develop my palate using mindfulness techniques. I also believe that there's a project out there called the mocktail project that would be great to include in your parties that would help push the drinking in moderation and someone sober, doesn't want to have a drink. They can have a 10:00 mocktail that's basically a folk cocktail. That's just as tasty as the cocktail would. And of course, the culture. We live in a society that does not want to educate young people why they cannot drink until they're 21. I have a five year old and he can tell you exactly why he is not able to consume the same bourbon that his father and mother do. Now, I'm not saying that parenting is easy, but I do think it's important that we educate our children that alcohol is not the devil. It is not some evil thing that demons cast upon you and the only way to not be caught up in its evil spell is to avoid it. And all honesty, if we just teach our children that drinking is bad for your body until you reach a certain age and your body is able to handle it. To me that is a more appropriate and honest and truthful way to bring someone up in this world. But 11:00 It's just easier to band stuff. Just ask the Philippines. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter or Instagram at Fred Minnick, that's at Fred Minnick until next week. Cheers 11:18 gentlemen please take your seats to my left here is Jeff our debt master distiller for jack daniels. 11:28 And to my other left, Fred noe master distiller for Jim Beam. 11:37 Gentlemen, it is such a privilege and honor to MC what is an absolutely historic seminar, jack and Jim, what's the difference? The two world best selling American whiskeys. This is awesome. Now, both of you all have had a lot 12:00 of musical connections. Tell us let's see what the difference is starting there. From the music perspective. What kind of music has Jim been been a part of? Well, I guess the first one was my dad met Hank Williams Jr. So it got a little name that's a little name drop right there. And you know we've played with McGovern Gentry for a long time country. And then we're trying to ease into the rock a little bit with Nickelback. And in our latest buddy was a kid rock. So we've, we've kind of hit different john years of music so you like people who like to drink? mostly people like to drink Jim Beam. All right. 12:46 All right, Jeff. Now, I think there's a musician that's pretty well connected the jack daniels. What's the history there? Well, if you go back in our history, it goes all the way to our founder who was pretty world traveled considering he was born. 13:00 In a small town in Lynchburg, Tennessee, so he purchased some instruments he created a group called the silver cornet band had them play on the square in Lynchburg because he learned that music and whiskey and kind of go together. They're both very social. So he's kind of solved the connection. So it began very early for us, but I think the game changer and jack daniels history was back in the 1950s when Frank Sinatra first held up jack daniels on stage, he called it the nectar of the gods. Our sales doubled from 1955 to 1956. But he was a lifelong jack daniels drinker. It was after that as you started to see jack daniels not just don't rock stages and music stages, but also in a lot of movies. But Frank was loyal to death. He literally was buried with a bottle of jack daniels in his casket. So we were honored to come out with a whiskey that that honored his love of the brand a few years ago. Now there's also some photos of like Jimmy Page, drinking. jack daniels backstage, the Rolling Stones. 14:00 Lemmy from Motorhead slash from Guns and Roses. These are people that are pretty iconic, you know in the rock world. And definitely love jack daniels and we have we're very fortunate we've got a lot of people in music who love jack daniels. And once we find that out, we don't feel like they should have to buy jack daniels t shirt, so I write a lot of letters and send out a lot of T shirts to people to thank them for their love. Now, Fred, jack daniels used to employ a guy who made sure that Frank Sinatra always had jack daniels. Has Jim Beam ever done anything like that? What do you mean my chili Goblin like? So there was a gentleman from our buddies right? Frank Sinatra. Never he always had a case of jack daniels nearby. So they employed someone who basically from what I understand, just basically drove around with him made sure he was always with jack daniels are we when people are on tour, whatever market they're in, our sales force shows up and breezes them pretty well. So your 15:01 I haven't heard any of them complain about not getting plenty of Jim Beam. Alright, so that's, that's just a little touch on the music about what's the difference between YouTube. You're also both really big into barbecue. really big into barbecue. Now Jeff, I was a judge with you last year at the big jack daniels BBQ. Tell us about your big barbecue connection is jack daniels. Yes, we the fourth Saturday in October. in Lynchburg. We sponsor what we consider to be the Super Bowl of barbecue. It comes very late in the season for the Kansas City barbecue society circuit. But it's the top 80 teams typically 20 of those have come from outside the US. So they're representing countries like Switzerland, Estonia, Canada, Australia, England, but usually it's about 50 or 60 of the best us teams who show up there to win the jack daniels international Invitational barbecue is a great time. I know and I have served as a judge on 16:00 The shade tree only where I judged the major meat categories, but I could hardly walk. When I got up on the table that day. I did not pace myself very well, but 42 samples in about three hours and you better know what you're doing. So I know we've got some judges out here in the audience today who were looking on who can attest to that. 16:18 Now, Fred, you are a great barbecue pit man. You're also a great ham maker. You've got a personal connection to barbecue and why is that? Why your barbecue sauce? The Jim Beam barbecue sauce tastes so good. Because God ZM Amen. And that's why 16:40 you made for it. And have you had the jab. He had the jack daniels barbecue sauce. I'm sure they do know I mean, if you had ever 16:49 seen it, do you like their Tyson? 16:53 whiskey and anything? It's good Jeffrey, what's wrong with you? 16:58 Does anyone 16:59 know 17:00 Go customer for was over. Yeah, well, I had a plus or minus, you know, I should have said we should have a cuss word counter out there with you. You know, are you sorry, I'm a potty mouth. We can trust Jeff to be a gentleman but Fred boy, he can get go. I'm not a scholar, so don't even go there. 17:18 Now both come from very historic distilleries. Very, very historic. Tell us about how jack Daniel got started. Well, for those who don't know jack daniels life story. He was orphaned at a very young age, so he found himself without either his biological parents when he was a young teenager. 17:38 He was one of 13 children born to his father, one of 10 born to his mother, but he ended up moving away to work for his room and board on a neighbor's farm. That neighbor was a Lutheran minister and a farmer. More importantly, he owned the general store that still stands on the square in Lynchburg today, and of course back in the 1850s and 60s, small town general stores had to serve a lot of functions. 18:00 And that community had to be a small scale department store had to swear you picked up telegrams, but also would be the pharmacy of the community. So jack started out making medicinal whiskey for a Lutheran minister that was sold to the townspeople of Lynchburg at the general store. So from very, very modest beginnings, he was out there for at least a decade perfecting the craft and ultimately bought the distilling equipment and moved it to where we are today and that happened in the 1870s. So you know, in jack daniels history, other than prohibition every drop of jack daniels has been made from a cave spring in Lynchburg, Tennessee. It's one of the things I think that makes us really special. It's one of the reasons why we're is I think, consistent as we are. It's a great water source and and the townspeople of Lynchburg have made it their passion to carry on the mission of jack daniels in his absence since he he passed in 1911. And since since we've been able to become the number one selling American whiskey today. So Fred, you guys also 19:00 Have a lot of your connection to your family's history is also connected to the water. Tell us about that. Yeah, our, I guess my great great great, great grandfather Jacob been migrated into Kentucky a little place called harden Creek. And they were given away land to get people to come this way from the northeast. That's how bad things were back then they were given land away, just to come in here and grow corn. Yeah. And what is now the Commonwealth of Kentucky. Jacob came down, got his parcel of land. He was a Miller of grain. Then he found out making whiskey was a good way to preserve preserve the grain. In fact, come to find out is whiskey making skills were better and more profitable than the milling of grain. So our family started making whiskey. Oh jacobin. And then as time went on, and railroad came through, his son moved it to Bardstown. Then prohibition came along shut off 20:00 is down 20:02 and along with a lot of other folks here in Kentucky, and after prohibition, Jim Beam started the old Murphy barber distillery backup spot right down here in Clermont, where he had been milling are grinding stone, limestone rock, there was a big spring there and a distillery. And so that's where we got moved from Harding Creek to Bardstown to Claremont, where we are today, and eight generations later, we're still there. So we're looking at both water sources. They're both limestone filter, they both very come from really strong natural areas of limestone, filtered x, you know, great access to the water. So we have a lot of similarities here. You know, from a cultural perspective, they're both very involved with music. They're both very involved in barbecuing, you've got some cool barbecue competitions as well. You both got barbecue sauces, and there's a lot of connections there. And then the water is pretty much 21:00 The same. Now let's talk about the recipes a little bit. Now, Jeff, I love you. You'll tell me exactly what your recipe is your mash bill, Fred, what's the Jim Beam? mash bill? How many years you've been trying to get that out of me for it. 21:14 I figured this would be the moment you would open up and share it. Not when I put me in that coffin, they might give it to you. I'm not going to give it to you because I know you want it so damn bad. It's true. It is I do want to bend the thing is Fred. If I gave you numbers, they ended up to 100 would you know if I was telling the truth? 21:34 I would make you put your hand on my book and swear it's the truth. So it's the book of bourbon. It would have to be the truth. wouldn't have to be shit. 21:46 fishes out for you. It has been a long time. It has been a long time. So let's just say that jack daniels is very sharing with their recipes. With now they share it and you guys been very protective of it for me for years. 22:00 But we can say that you're at least 75% corn. 22:06 You're more than 51% corn. Now we're more bitty 1% or then 51% corn. I'm not giving anything. Okay, because pretty soon as at how much raw, oh, you'll be able to figure it out but give you with this with the gentleman from Tennessee tell us from the mash mill recipe for jack daniels. I will you know, with the exception of the raw whiskey that we've just introduced, that's a 70% raw 18% corn and 12% malted barley pretty much everything that you've ever had from jack daniels shares what we call the old number seven rest, right? It's 80% corn is 12% malted barley and 8%. Raw. And I know Fred doesn't want to talk about it. But I would just say in general, jack daniels is about a half to a third of the typical raw content of a Kentucky bourbon. So when you start to contrast and maybe some of the differences, obviously whiskey and Kentucky bourbon that it begins at the grain, there was a deliberate choice to maybe go a little bit less on this 23:00 Ice that would be associated with Ryan going a little bit higher and corn and make it a little bit sweeter. So jack tends to push out into that sweet range a little bit. I think it's fair to say, I think I know your grain bill, but I won't tell anybody 23:12 with a brother, Jeff, you can say it here. No one's listening. No one's watching right now. They used to talk about it. 23:20 Actually, Chuck Cowdery had a good story about your dad and the issue of bourbon plus over there, you gotta go check that out. But sorry, so are our mash bills. The recipes are pretty close, you know, so they're pretty close to being the same them. And then let's look at the distillation perspective. You guys are both using column stills both using column stills. What are you coming off the still at what's your what's your proof point office Still, we we actually all of our stills are made out of copper. So there are columns still each is equipped with a blur, so it'll be a single pass but a double distillation process. We target 140 points. 24:00 roof and with the still design that we have, we can maintain that plus or minus one proof point. So we have a really tight range around our target. So 131 to 139 would be the range 140 is the target. What is your office still proof? Jim Beam? Yeah, that's where we'll change our taste is with distillation strength. But we go off the first distillation 125 second distillation 135. OK, so again, both very similar in distillation technique. And now med one med 132 to 140. And by law, they cannot go any higher than 160 proof. So that's actually telling you right there that they are deliberately going lower, so you can get some more of the characteristic from the grain in there. So they're both doing very unique things. And now 24:57 we get to that point where we start saying 25:00 A difference. Now, Fred, you you guys go and get Maple charcoal and filter your whiskey right before it right? No, wait, no, that's not Jim Beam. That's jack daniels. 25:13 Did you do any damn research before you? 25:20 Sometimes I apologize for my buddy here, you know, what do you think of the Lincoln County process? I mean, yeah, it's tradition. That's what I do. It's good. That's what makes them special. Well, do you like it? I enjoy what they do what they make. 25:38 So tell us about the Lincoln County process. And by the way, I didn't know I was trying to set 25:43 it up there a little bit. You know, even though Today we're in the second smallest county in the state of Tennessee, both by population and geography. You'll hear this charcoal Melling process often referred to as the Lincoln County process. So we're in Moore County, but don't get confused back in the 1860s lunch. 26:00 was in a larger county called Lincoln County. More county wasn't formed until the 1870s. But this was a regional variant of bourbon. It was just something that that popped up among local distillers and back in Jack's day, even though we're the only one you'll find there today. Back in Jack's day, there were dozens of different distilleries littered throughout the hills around Lynchburg taking advantage of the limestone water that we have in abundance there. But they began to charcoal filter 26:29 right after they would distill the whiskey and before they would put it in a barrel they would filter it through hard sugar maple charcoal became the variety of wood that was most preferred. People have asked me before the jack us any other different types of wood other than hard sugar maple and I wish I could answer that question. I think if he were here today, that's probably one of my top questions that I would have is what all did you experiment with before you settled there, but I will tell you this about hard sugar maple it's an indigenous word. It's all throughout the hills around Lynchburg. So it's it's a 27:00 easy to find, even after 150 years that we've been out cutting it and burning it for charcoal. The key advantage that I see from it is that it's a very low ash wood. And we're going Of course, we're going to take our whiskey through that. So we don't want a lot of ash coming out of the charcoal getting into the whiskey and going into the barrel. Today with modern technology, we could process that away if we needed to. But what I noticed is that there's really not much in the way of ash that comes off of it. So oak actually has quite a bit of ash. Maple does not so jack was not just known to use hard sugar maple in the charcoal mellowing process, but he felt that it was very important to change it frequently because he recognized that it was like a sponge and eventually a sponge will get full and get saturated. And so you need to do more than just pass through charcoal, the charcoal needs to be fresh enough to make a difference. So we're tasting our events every week, changing it out on the frequency necessary to make sure that it's making the difference removing the fatty acids cleans up 28:00 The grainy knows it comes off much lighter, sweeter on the foot, both on the palate and also on the nose. 28:07 Fred, I don't know about you, but I heard I listened to the process and I've seen it before a million times. And it just sounds like so much more work. 28:18 I mean, do you think that's why in Kentucky that they stopped using that process? We're just a little lazier probably 28:26 wouldn't have gotten around or in the 1700s. I mean, look at them. Oh, but I'm not really. But now. I mean, that's just that's what Jeff and them do. And I've always done it. So we use it. We used to do it in Kentucky. You know, the the bill distillers actually used to do a similar process in the 1800s. It just did not. It was not very popular here. And so it went away. We did some charcoal filtering after aging. Yeah, to kind of smooth out some of the whiskies back in the old days, but now we've done some different different techniques and filtering now 29:00 Your tour guides Jeff. They like the lumps and mortar rounds toward Kentucky. And they just say this makes us better. Kentucky bourbon. Yeah. Now I gotta say as a Kentucky and although I tried to be neutral and is my skin crawls a little bit when your tour guide start making fun of Kentucky now what do you trade? What he traded him over there? Well, of course I think it's friendly competition. I think it forces us both to be the very best at our game. And I think people when when we feel like we need to step up our game and mind our P's and Q's to make a better product. You know, I know that we've had people who've come and taking the tour jack daniels who've recently taken the Kentucky bourbon trail and some of them have come up and tell me that I asked the tour guide. They wouldn't say which distillery it was. But you know, why isn't that y'all don't charcoal mellow like jack daniels does. And the standard response you'll get is that all hail that's, that is nothing but a shortcut. And of course, I looked up shortcut. I looked up the definition of IO and it's amazing guy 30:00 was Fred know, well supposed to say shortcuts are supposed to save you time or money or both. And it's something that we invest days in that we spend over a million dollars buying wood and burning it and replacing it. So it's it's something we're pretty passionate about. But it's to Fred's point, it's one of those things that makes a Tennessee whiskey unique. It makes it worth exploring. The same way I think, you know, no, to Kentucky barbers are pretty much going to taste the same. This was something that was a regional choice to make Tennessee whiskey is different. And it's something that we feel like we perfected over the years and that we're pretty proud that we still do today. All right, let's go through our tasting here. The one on your lap if I'm correct, is jack daniels. My right so we can be? Yeah, the one on your left is jack daniels. For us up on stage is the one that's closest to you. Are you going to be You got it? 30:49 I got so we're serving here is a gentleman jack. Can you tell us a little bit about gentleman jack? Yeah, of course as a Tennessee whiskey, we charcoal mellow and we were talking 31:00 about that process being somewhat different than what they do in Kentucky to make a bourbon but that's right after we distill whiskey and right before we put it in a barrel, it slowly passes through 10 feet of hard sugar maple charcoal. So that's this is the distinct step that we do that makes jack daniels at Tennessee whiskey with gentleman jack. This was our first new whiskey since prohibition we introduced it in 1988. It was the only whiskey that we've ever done. We had charcoal melt it twice so it gets one pass of charcoal before it goes in the barrel it gets another one after it's been fully matured in the barrel and before it's bottle. So this is the double mellowed version of jack daniels. And what you'll notice about it is that it has a very distinct absence of oak finish. For people who a lot of times if people struggle with bourbon or with whiskies in general it will do it will have to do with the aftertaste of oak, some people find it pleasant, that's what makes them like bourbon for other people. It's a block. It's a reason why they can enjoy it. So gentlemen, jack was literally meant to be an approachable form of whiskey. 32:00 Using charcoal all natural this is. This is all water grains, barrel and charcoal. So there's nothing artificial added in here. But this kind of displays the art of mellowing by doing it twice. All right, Fred, what do you think? I'm Dyson idea. What do you been doing the whole time? I've been smelling that I All right. Yeah, that's fine. 32:21 I think I drank the whole damn thing. 32:25 That's bullshit. Yeah, when it comes when it comes to this one in particular, I often describe it as being very, very clean, 32:33 uncomplicated, but it has almost a citrus banana nose on it has an absence of the earthy wood notes in it. Very clean and light. The great Lincoln Henderson actually had a big hand in the development of gentleman jack he did Lincoln work for brown Coleman for 40 years. So between the people of Lynchburg and all the the whiskey making expertise we have at Brown Forman, which of course includes some great bourbon brands and now also scotch whiskey and a new Irish whiskey. 33:00 Brand we we cover the whiskey world pretty well today except with the exception of Japanese whiskey. We even have Canadian. So we're a whiskey company at our core. So Lincoln Henderson is the founding master distiller for both angel's envy and Woodford Reserve. He's in the bourbon Hall of Fame he passed away in 2013. great man. So there's a little bit of a bourbon iconic figure connected to that whiskey now let's taste a little bit of Jim Beam here. This is the this is the one we see Mila Kunis talking about all the time. 33:33 This mask about you know the person this is the world's best whiskey their words not ours, according to see. Yeah. So what let's look at the Mila Kunis and a little bit but tell us about what we're drinking here with the Jim Beam black champion. Black is our gym being Nashville. Which I'm not going to tell you Fred. I know. 33:57 You're not one. But we do. We aged long. 34:00 RGM been white label stays in the barrel for years. This is a six year taste profile. So we're putting barrels that are older than six, some that are six, and some are a little younger than six. That way we keep the product on the shelf with a domain curve. All right, I got it. I got interrupted here. I gotta interrupt you. Okay, there wasn't once upon a time it had an eight year old age statement on there. If you go back farther, it had 101 months. 34:29 History he was ready for me damn right. 34:32 Fred you remember we've done this ship before? Yeah. 34:36 You ain't sent me out man. I might. 34:39 I might look dumb, but it's just a disguise. 34:43 I still you know, the thing is, it took me a while to get over by still buy it. I'm glad to see it. But the big thing on this ad it's 86 proof. So it's got more age, higher strength. So gets a little bit more of what and I think bourbon is all about no more word. 35:00 Which I did notice gentlemen jack doesn't have that much wood on the nose and finish. But I mean if you want a little more the if you like the oak, then you know the Jim Beam black is more than the GMBYI Let's take a taste. You didn't do that good talking to you in the jack daniels Did you? Yes sir. Oh you did I miss that. You want to watch it? Should you always try to set me up? I'm not trying to set you up. So now here I am trying to set you up. You're setting me up. Here we go. No, I'll give you the my spiel is a drink thing. I'm drunk enough to give me that loaded. Sorry. 35:34 Is jack daniels a bourbon? 35:39 Hey, it's Kenny here. And I want to tell you about an event that's happening on Saturday, August 24. Because I want to see you in historic downtown Frankfort, Kentucky at bourbon on the banks. It's the Commonwealth premier bourbon tasting and awards festival. There's live music and over 100 vendors of food, beer, wine, and of course, bourbon. But 36:00 Guess what even will be there in the bourbon pursuit booth. You can check out all the events including tastings with the master distillers that you've heard on the show before and the People's Choice Award for the Best bourbon out there. You can get your all inclusive ticket for $65. Plus, you can join on the free Friday night event. Go and check it out. bourbon on the banks.org there are more craft distilleries popping up around the country now more than ever before. 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Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 37:24 Is jack daniels a bourbon? 37:26 Well, no, I mean, let's look on the label. You see the word BOURBON on her anywhere. It's in the North American Free Trade Agreement. 37:36 I political Oh, man. 37:40 Come on. JACK. Is jack daniels a bourbon? You know, according to NAFTA? Yes, it is. Oh, there we go. Thank you so much for coming. If you want to trust if you want to trust the view of our government, you know, you'd have to say that it is if you want to make your own decision about that. That's fine too. But if you look at everything in the federal 38:00 codes that define what a bourbon whiskey is. There are no exceptions when it comes to what jack daniels is our grain bill in the fact that were made in America, our grain bill, our distillation proved the fact that we only use new barrels or even make barrels for ourselves as a whiskey company. The only way to do that there's nothing that would disqualify us. But there's always been this argument that well, if you go to charcoal mellowing, it does distinctly change the spirit. Yeah, it changes the nose. It changes the mouth feel of it. And the actually it was the US government. Back in 1941. Who petition jack daniels This was after prohibition it ended. They wanted us to change our label from jack daniels, Tennessee whiskey to bourbon, they were trying to kind of go around and clean up who's operations and what they were being labeled as and they said, we've looked at your process. There's no exceptions. The what defined is bourbon, so why not just re label yourself so they submitted samples before and after charcoal mellowing, my salespeople actually offer those educationally today. 39:00 And they tasted it. This was the alcohol Bureau in Washington DC there actually was such a thing back then they tasted the product. 39:08 Government, they wrote us a letter, and 1941 that basically says we've tasted your product. And we have to agree that you don't have the character that's typical of bourbon whiskey. Therefore, if you want to label yourself a Tennessee whiskey, we won't contest it any longer. And of course, the US government has a way of changing their minds. So we can we've kept a copy of that letter just as evidence that we don't want to revisit that. We feel like the arguments been one. But we all we also say that it gives us hope, because it's the one evidence that we have in the last 75 years that our US government got any decision right. So we take that one 39:44 political angle. 39:46 You don't get me in trouble jail. Fred, I know is going to get me in trouble. So Jeff, 39:54 do you ever get tired of people asking you that question? Is jack daniels a bourbon? No, no, no. 40:00 Really I think as long as people are curious, that's part of the battle. You know, for the longest time whiskey from the 1950s and 1960s and 1970s whiskeys were all the rage. You know, the whiskey cocktails were what people ordered. But then we saw some pretty lean years as whiskey brands, the 70s, or the 80s 90s and 2000s. Were not necessarily so kind. So I think just having people to be bourbon curious. 40:26 Whiskey curious. 40:29 As part of the battle, you know, I always say if we can make whiskey interesting, collectively, but the rising tide will raise all ships. So I feel like jack daniels success doesn't necessarily have to come at the expense of Jim beam's. And I think probably Fred would say the same. That we can both have extremely successful brands because we we do have unique flavors, we have unique brands. And that's going to appeal more or less to different individuals. But I think just having people be curious about whiskey is the biggest part of the battle if they're open to trying it. I think they're 41:00 Something in the whiskey category that are going to like, all right, Do you guys ever feel competitive against each other, like you want to own the well over the other? 41:10 You know, the thing that, you know, the guys in production, were buddies, sales guys on the street. That's another damn store. 41:21 I mean, I'd have to agree. You know, Fred. Now, this is very rare that we would be on the same stage together. But we met about eight or nine years ago, in Berlin. It was amazing, because I think that was Fred's first comments. That means like, we're a state apart, and we had to come all the way to Germany to even meet. So we, we were at the Berlin bartenders convention and had a chance to actually we were representing American whiskey versus the other categories of global whiskey. So we decided against the devil Yeah, instead of having the fence between us. We were actually on the same side of the fence there. So we were we were in violent agreement I remember about the importance of limestone water and mixing up grains and using new 42:00 barrels, making it all natural not using colorings or flavorings and things of that nature. So, you know, there's so many things that are common about Jim Beam and jack daniels, of course, the one variant being charcoal mellowing, and people can decide if that's right for them. But I think as long as they're willing to to order a whiskey, there's a good chance that they're going to like something there. There we were, essentially, Jeff and me against the world. I don't think we did pretty damn good. 42:28 Well, we were lucky, because it was in Germany, and Jim Beam is pretty strong in Germany. And so all our sales people were kind of on one side and they were probably a little drunk. I think. 42:41 I think there's one thing we could agree to I actually have some friends who are what I call Doomsday errs, you know, who created fallout shelters who got Mr. ease and, you know, bottled water stacked up to the ceiling. And a lot of them have basically told me that I'm not I'm not hoarding cash. I'm basically putting bottles of jack daniels. 43:00 Whiskey and stuff like that because if the currency fails, they're absolutely certain that a bottle of whiskey is always going to be worth something regardless of what happens. 43:11 But but but Baka would not be. Yeah, I think if we go back to bartering, it's gonna be good to be in the whiskey business. What do you say? 43:19 Bam, right? You get more with a bottle of whiskey and you can handle the money. I guarantee it. 43:27 Well, gentlemen, it's been a real pleasure here. This is such a rare opportunity to have these two on the stage. I would actually like to take some questions from the audience how bad it would you like some light shirt from folks like that some questions? 43:42 Anybody have any questions out there? 43:45 What is a regular day for Fred? No. And Jeff Barnett. 43:51 I get up about 630 here down the August 1 thing, look at emails is like every other person. So do 44:00 Deal with meetings conference calls. And then I get to have fun and go down to the distillery. taste a little white dog right off the steel and then usually hit by the lab and taste some as liquor and then hang out at our visitor center, shake hands, take pictures, sand bottles, and then hit home but then the day they send me to 44:25 your liquor stores and bars, all days signing bottles, taking pictures, doing presentations, I'm sure Jeff's when he's on the west side. I'm usually on the east. 44:37 That same place. 44:39 You can see who's been ahead of you when you go into a liquor store. You see bottles on the shelf that have been signed by Jeff Arnett or Jimmy Russell or whoever is it well shit, I'm definitely behind him. You know, don't put dates on them so you don't know. Or maybe x coming. I'm not going to store and see bottles son from the last visit. And I think what shipping 45:00 Selling enough 45:04 one too many 45:06 I got out they don't let you get away. You know I think the the one word in that question that that puzzles me the most is regular I don't know that I've ever had a regular day as a master distiller because every day is it's different to me I feel absolutely blessed to work for jack daniels you know I'm a native Tennessee and argue that is probably the best known product from our state so have to have any hand in working at jack daniels to me was a dream job. But 80% of my time is spent in Lynchburg. The one thing that I'm most fortunate about is that I don't have to travel between facilities we make every drop in one spot using a water source which allows me to keep everything as consistent as I feel like it needs to be. It allows us to leverage you know, employees who have you know, several generations of experience making whiskey I think that I'm not the strength of jack daniels it is the people of Lynchburg who've committed over the years since prohibition to 46:00 Keep the brand going and growing. But I do spend about 50 to 60 days a year out on the road. So, you know, you become a little bit of a 46:09 celebrity in the world of whiskey. You know, it's amazing what passes that celebrity, you know. But you know, to to a whiskey fan, they want to meet you, they want to get a photo, they want to get a signature. And that's it's always an honor to do that. But we are sold in 170 countries today in 10 years. I've actually by the end of this year, I'll have visited 39 countries so cover a lot of the ground in a few days of the year. So let's talk about celebrities for a second. Let's go to what's it like spending time with Mila Kunis? My one man 46:41 I mean, it could have been worse, you know? Now Mila she she came here to Kentucky a couple times and we hit it off right off the bat. You're gonna love this story. I might as well go on and tell it. Surely I won't get any trouble since I've already cursed a little bit going on with Mila first came. They wanted to make sure that our first 47:00 meeting was on film. They didn't want us to get to know each other. And so she came to our home there in Bardstown. She was in the house. They were getting her hair and makeup wardrobe. You know, I pretty much do all that stuff myself. I don't I don't have hairdressers that go with me, kind of no reason to me anyway. My wife went into the house and was talking to me over there and she had her dog when Mila and her boyfriend at that time, Ashton Kutcher had to put her dog sleeping on Neil or something. So she got pretty emotional was holding Sandy's dog. And she said, I'm a little nervous to work with your husband. And Sandy said, Why? She's a walk curse a lot. 47:45 And my wife said, You're good. 47:48 She's a no you don't understand. I say fuck a lot. 47:53 She said, You're still good. 47:58 Sandy came out 48:00 And she came on was laughing I said, What's the funny? So Amelia is nervous to work with you. I said Why? She was he causes a lot, so it's no big deal. I know what she's worried about saying fuck around you. So we did our little meeting. It was on film, everything was cool. Cut, take a break. I got her ear and I said fuck it. 48:22 We're gonna get along just fine, big boat. 48:25 That's how I was. I was tell someone that after having met Fred I realized he was truly a master of the English language because he can take the F bomb and use it as every form of the English language in one sentence. 48:40 Yeah, all right, Jeff, as I play bartender here on stage, why don't you tell us one of your celebrity stories? Oh, goodness. Um, you know, we're very fortunate. Like I said, we've had a lot of people especially in the music industry. We were fans of jack daniels. So especially in country music, a lot of people and they think of, of Tennessee. If they don't 49:00 Think of jack daniels when they think of Tennessee I think they largely think of country music so I've had a chance to spend time him he 49:08 music table we even work, you know had a chance to hang out with with Zac Brown and 49:14 and his wife and his children and also now with Eric church, and to find out that his wife literally grew up about 30 minutes from my hometown, and what real and really good people that they are. I think that I think that's the most surprising thing that I find is that celebrities are not a lot different than we are, you know, some of them maybe are but the ones that I've had the privilege of meeting I've been always really surprised at just how humble and what good people they are. And of course if they love jack daniels even better, we got plenty to talk about if they do. I know you. You are partial to the ones that favor Jim Beam and I definitely have a I feel like a big fan base out there both in Hollywood and all over the music industry, jack daniels as well represented there. All right, everybody. Let's have another question. Who's got a 50:00 Question out here. Yes, ma'am. Right here in the back. coming to you with the microphone. 50:06 How often do you introduce new products? And when will your next one be introduced? 50:12 I'll answer for jack daniels. You know, how often do we come up with new products? You know, for the longest time we didn't, we had one brand that carried us for over 100 years. We introduced gentleman jack in 1988. We introduced single barrel in 1997. We didn't introduce any new products from jack daniels for about 14 years. And that wasn't necessarily due to our lack of interest of offering new products. It was really more about is the market even wanting a new product from us? Are they happy with what they have, but as as whiskey has taken off again, I think that's what we're seeing has changed the most is that people do want to try a lot of different things, including the loyal jack daniels people and that includes, you know, our newest grain bill that's come out is raw. So we have two different versions of it to me that's that's our new product and for this year, that's what we're going to continue to focus on. 51:00 Because to me, I think it's very different for people who maybe have never been a fan of jack daniels before. Maybe one of the reasons is the fact that we're very low and raw. And if you do like a high raw whiskey, we now offer that, you know, jack daniels, you know, like I said, we're very fortunate we have just a rabid fan base. And I think besides Harley Davidson, we just recently got named the brand that's most likely to be tattooed on someone. So, you know, people have asked me why, why did you come out with a rye whiskey? And it's like, well, my fear was that there's going to be this big burly guy with a tattoo that says jack daniels on his arm, and he's gonna taste rye whiskey this out. He really likes that. So we need to give him a jack daniels option. That way, he's not going to have to go and get his tattoo taken off. So but you know, to answer that question, we've come out with one new product a year for the last seven years. So we've gone from three to 10 in a really short period. So we're just kind of trying to maybe decompress a little bit from doing that and focus on what we've got out there. We feel like we've got a really strong profile. 52:00 There's something in there that out of those 10 that I think everyone's gonna like. 52:05 Now you were about to dispute the tattooed thing for No, no, no, no, I asked him. I was going to ask Jeff for his was, oh, I couldn't show you on stage. I'm sorry. 52:17 Between me and my wife, you're lucky, you're lucky. 52:21 Now, we do a lot of innovations. 52:26 My son actually, Freddie, he's he's got a project who just had a baby, by the way, or his wife had a baby. Right? Congratulations, grandpa. 52:36 Paul, I was holding Booker last time. 52:39 It was kind of cool. But Freddie's got a brand called Little Book, which so my father called him from the time he was a baby. So every year, he's going to make a straight whiskey or straight spirit blend. And so every year it's going to be another chapter into chapter one was 52:59 either 53:00 No easy. The second one's no easy task. First one was the big easy, but he's taking spirit streams from within the beam Suntory portfolio around the world, which he's got a pretty unlimited canvas. When you look at all the whiskies we have which, with this year, he did a 40 year old Canadian 16 year old Canadian rap, an eight year old, Kentucky straight raw, 53:24 all cash strength, just like his grandfather. And so we're doing innovations, probably one or two a year. And then we'll within our play knob Creek will go we've done single barrel rise, single barrel Bourbons, can strength. We do different things, all limited releases, because folks like Jeff said, they want different stuff. They don't want the same thing over and over and over. If we see something that really hits hard, like we did a base right and dark raw, which was, oh, I've got an idea that we could maybe execute for next 54:00 years festival Why don't we do a blend of jack daniels and Jim Beam for bourbon and beyond 2019 54:09 I go say won't ever 54:12 talk somebody 54:15 and they'll tell you what how drunk were you to when you agreed to 54:23 have your people talk to my 54:26 so you get this ball rolling Fred 54:29 should we have it for next year? 54:34 I would say this so I think it when you're looking at Tennessee and Kentucky you're definitely looking at some of the world's best spirits when it comes to whiskeys and you can't go wrong if you will explore around I think you're going to find there's something they're just gonna like. Oh yeah, for sure. So what you're saying it's better than Canada. 54:50 Well, it's different than Canada we have different rules. We have Canadian whiskey brand is 54:56 people like and more power to them. We got scotch whiskey brands. 55:00 get us in trouble. Yeah, we got Canadian. You know, I've recently become a fan of shared scotches oh you know students don't smoke repeat but I'm open to trying new things. 55:11 Well gentlemen, if you all if anyone in the audience has anything lab, I know you to do. I just poured you like four fingers there. Grab what you have a lap. Let's toast it to, to Fred know and Jeff Barnett chairs and now you all 55:28 chairs Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Since the New Beverly is mostly playing ONCE UPON A TIME... IN HOLLYWOOD this month, Elric, Brian and Phil took this opportunity to talk to the film's Editor Fred Raskin about the movie. If you're unfamiliar with Fred's work, he's edited other films for Tarantino such as DJANGO UNCHAINED and THE HATEFUL EIGHT as well as both GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY films and three consecutive FAST AND FURIOUS movies starting with TOKYO DRIFT. On top of that, he also cut BONE TOMAHAWK and THE HOUSE WITH A CLOCK IN ITS WALLS! So Fred is the main guest interview for most of this episode and in the last section, all the matinees and kiddie shows playing at the theater in August are discussed. Be warned though, ONCE UPON A TIME...IN HOLLYWOOD is covered in great detail on this episode with major spoilers throughout, so please be aware of that before listening! Enjoy! For Info about the New Beverly and the month's schedule, go to their website: http://thenewbev.com/ Follow the Pure Cinema on Twitter: twitter.com/purecinemapod Instagram: www.instagram.com/purecinemapod/ and Facebook: www.facebook.com/purecinemapod/ Elric's Twitter: twitter.com/elrickane Brian's Twitter: twitter.com/bobfreelander

You can't discount the impact marijuana is currently having on states that have legalized recreational use. There's now more research and funding looking at the impact of marijuana not only from a medicinal use, but also economic footprint that funds many city and state government initiatives. Of course, liquor industries are curious and want to make sure this doesn't hurt sales. Will it? I don't know, but today's guests do. David Ozgo, Chief Economist at Distilled Spirits Council and Clay Busch, Vice President of Heavy Grass join the show to talk from their respective sides. Those advocating widespread legalization helps everyone, and those taking precautions for its hurting sales of the spirits business. Show Partners: Batch 016 was a project that took Barrell Craft Sprits over a year. They selected 9 to 15 year old barrels with similar profiles from different distilleries. It’s deeply concentrated, but not too oaky and finishes with a toasted orange note. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. Use code "BOB2019" for discounted tickets to Bourbon on the Banks in Frankfort, KY on August 24th. Visit BourbonontheBanks.org. (Offer good through 6/30.) Aged & Ore is running a special promotion on their new Travel Decanter. Get yours today at PursuitTravelDecanter.com. Receive $25 off your first order with code "Pursuit" at RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Kentucky state pride. What's your connection to bourbon? Give us some background on your organizations. Do you encourage smoking weed to harness creativity? Is there a concern from the Distilled Spirits Council with the combination of marijuana and spirits? Let's discuss consuming responsibly. Should brands try to align themselves with marijuana? Tell us about the research the government is doing on marijuana? How would spirit companies use marijuana in their portfolio? What is CBD compared to marijuana? Do you think marijuana has an impact on the spirits industry? Are people worried about marijuana impacting spirits? How do national companies handle marijuana use with employees that live in legal states? What do you think about experimentation of marijuana in spirits? What is your goal in regards to marijuana? What are your thoughts on hemp? Are they worried about the spirit or their pocket books? How can you pair marijuana with whiskey? 0:00 Well now my fire alarms going off. You hear it? 0:04 It's all good. 0:06 Unless he's burning. For God's sake, Kenny. Yeah, I know. 0:08 This podcast was so hot guys, we torched the apartment. 0:24 This is Episode 206 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your host Kenny. And as usual, a little bit of news. We've announced here on the podcast of all the distilleries on Kentucky having multiple million and billion dollar expansions because the bourbon boom isn't stopping, it's not slowing down. And in 2016, Buffalo Trace began making their progress on its $1.2 billion infrastructure investment. This started off with four new barrel warehouses and a $50 million bottling hall that is now nearing completion. New barrel warehouses double a double will be double See, and Double D have been built and are filled with barrels that will continue to age which will eventually fill around 70 million bottles of whiskey. Now this is all located on what's called whiskey farm, which is a 200 acre plot of land adjacent to Buffalo Trace. The fifth new warehouse double E is taking shape with constructions of number six and seven that every plan for the end of 2019. Each of these warehouses are unique because they are heat cycle during the winter months, even with its limited stock and having to wait for age do its thing. Buffalo Trace is committed to not raising prices or diluting proves to fill more barrels. Last week on the roundtable we discussed would you ever drink a marijuana infused bourbon? Well, this show takes it kind of in a whole new direction. You can't discount the impact that marijuana is currently having on states that have legalized recreational use. There's now more research and funding, looking the impacts of marijuana not only from a medicinal use, but also its economical impact. Of course, liquor industries are curious, and they want to make sure that this isn't going to hurt their sales. But will it? Who knows? But I can't be that expert. So we're going to find out from our experts today. So we have David Ozgo, the chief economist at the distilled spirits Council and Clay Bush, Vice President of heavy grass, they joined the show to talk from their respective sides of the table. So those for its widespread use. And those look at the precautionary look at the potential impact of marijuana on the spirits business. Now with that, let's hear from our friend Joe over a barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred Minnick with the above the char. 2:45 Hi, this is Joe Beatrice from barrell bourbon. batch 16 was a project that took over a year, we selected nine to 15 year old barrels with similar profiles from different distilleries. It's deeply concentrated, but not too oaky and finishes with a toasted orange note. Find out more at barrel bourbon.com. 3:02 I'm Fred Minnick, and this is above the char. My wife held her belly and said, Freddie, it's time we jumped in the car. I drove 90 miles per hour to the Clark County Memorial Hospital. And nearly 24 hours later, our first son Oscar Leo was born. He was a complicated birth. And we chose this hospital because it specialized in natural birth, even though we didn't mean to end up having a natural birth. That's a whole other story. Why am I telling you this because I regret falling for that hospitals marketing plan, as my son does not have Kentucky on his birth certificate. Don't get me wrong. I love Indiana, the people the food, the cities, but work and tuck ins and there's something special about being born and raised in the state. And while I love my home state of Oklahoma, I'm a proud Oklahoma State Cowboys, Kentucky and bodies of state pride you cannot find anywhere else. It's an every cask of bourbon horse scalping in the metals. The state is an amazing state. And when you travel outside these borders, folks look at you as if you know something, because you live in Kentucky. If you're bred born and raised here, that's like an extra 10 points are cool. I think there's even a T shirt for that. But for bourbon in particular, being from Kentucky gives you more cachet. And if you're from Bardstown especially, it's as if you were baptized from the holy barrel of Booker and Parker beam was your Godfather, the gravitas is real. And if you ever drank with the Kentucky and bards tab, you know why it's our Mecca, our holy place of American whiskey. And it's important to me that my sons live and love the Kentucky pride. After all, as my wife says, they're the sons of bourbon. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, do you have a cool take on Kentucky? Let me know. Love the state, as you know, I'll retweet it or share it on Instagram. Hit me up at Fred Minnick. That's at Fred Minnick. Until next week. Cheers. 5:12 Welcome back to bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon, Kenny and Fred here in attendance today, talking about a subject that is I don't know it's a little little bit hot, a little bit a little bit tipsy because it is two controlled substances and figuring out exactly where do the legalities sort of fit in? Where do one compete with one another to because this is a this is a market after all? And I don't know Fred, do you think this is just considered the the all out sin podcast? 5:45 Well, if we had beer, yeah, we would we can be able to throw that on there. And big, big beer is not a fan of cannabis growth. And so when we look at when we look at marijuana, and American whiskey, the seem to be a lot more compliments, then competition. In a lot of cases, you know, from a lot of consumers do both. And then, you know, the distillers don't seem to be as afraid of the introduction of marijuana legally as beer companies do, and wine and wineries. But at the same time, you know, here in Kentucky, we still have a lot of dry counties. And you know, in some in some districts, you smoke weed, you're going to the devil so and so we see a lot of like Prohibition era mindsets when it's applied to marijuana. 6:42 Yeah, I typically tend to agree with that. However, the one thing that we have seen within the changing laws of marijuana is that it's it's starting to break down barriers a lot faster than probably what she's seen a lot of things in regards of alcohol to from California and Colorado and the whole entire nation of Canada is now recreational. So you're starting to see these these things coming. And it's I think it'll be harder for entities to try to stop slowing its role because it's a, I guess it's a product that is probably going to eventually make its way out and marijuana in general recreational marijuana to the vast majority of United States over the next few years. And that is why we have brought in our guests today to talk about this and what could the potential impact be on bourbon? So we have got David Ozgo. David is the chief economist of the distilled spirits Council, as well as we have Clay Bush, who is the vice president of heavy grass. So Gentlemen, welcome to the show. 7:43 Thank you very much. Good. It's good to be here. 7:45 Yeah. Thanks for having us. 7:47 Yeah, so Clay I'll kind of go with you first. You know, this is a bourbon podcast after all. What's your sort of tie in with with bourbon? Do you drink it? You have a few bottles as a cocktail guy what's what's sort of your your Avenue 8:01 and a previous in a previous life? I actually used to help produce beer bourbon festivals, which is how I met Fred. I've always been a traditional Tennessee whiskey jack daniels guy just growing up naturally and in college jack and coke was always my go to that's how I was introduced to whiskey. But as I did more shows in Kentucky's in Louisville, specifically med debt, you know, with Danny Wimmer presents and the festivals that we did there because I used to be a promoter with Danny Wimmer really got to know and educate ourselves in the bourbon. So I'm a bourbon fanatic. I had a good collection. But being in California, it's hard to find the good stuff. So it's going it's running out. But a big Blanton's fan, he is probably my go to if I if I could ever, like have a you know, one sip of one thing, Blanton would be my my go to. 8:49 Nice. 8:49 What about you, David, do you have a particular bourbon that you gravitate towards? or anything like that? 8:55 Oh, gosh, that's always a loaded question. When you're talking to someone that works for a traders Association. 9:02 Didn't didn't didn't. 9:04 Let me just say there are a lot of really wonderful products out on the market. And I enjoyed most of them. 9:11 It was it was about as generic as we can get. 9:17 You running for Senate in 2022? 9:20 No, but I'd like to keep my job in 9:22 2019. So although I can David, I imagine that your your plank would be pretty good. You would just be talking about reducing excise taxes and reducing tariffs. I mean, you'd have all kinds of people voting for you with that kind of language. 9:38 Well, we are quite popular with a good portion of the public. And we're just hoping to bring the Congress around along as well. So yeah, we've had some tariff issues, but we're hoping to get past them so that the Europeans can enjoy our fine bourbon products. 9:56 Absolutely. And I think we should also let people get a little bit more familiar with with your organizations that you belong to. So David, if you could give a little bit of color and background on what is the distilled spirits Council. 10:09 Sure, the distilled spirits council we represent most of the large, distillers, distillers and importers of distilled spirits in United States. So that means we represent the suppliers either the people when it comes to bourbon, the people that are actually making the bourbon or we also represents scotch rum, gin, vodka, all the distilled spirits. So if it happens to be an import will will represent the importer as well. And we have an organization here in Washington DC, we have a public affairs staff, we obviously have a number of government relations people. We have a science office general counsel office, and my office is the economic and strategic analysis office. So we do a lot of economic analysis. So we will represent the industry both here in Washington, DC, but then at the state level as well, where where there's oftentimes a lot going on. 11:08 And then I don't know if heavy grass really needs an introduction, but I want you to do it anyway. 11:13 Well, heavy grass is a we like to call ourselves more than just a cannabis company. We're a lifestyle brand. You know, we we think we're amplifying to everyone's experience. I mean, cannabis has been amplifying, you know, creativity. Other experiences throughout history since been introduced to the market. So we are a rock and roll aggressive brand. We are a recreational brand, we do not take a medical stance, we're not here to say we're our stuffs going to help treat arthritis or influenza, it's an anti inflammatory, we're here to say, you know, if you want to go to a concert, smoking, a heavy grass product is going to help amplify your experience. But more than anything, we're a community. We're super serving the rock and roll and metal community, we're all inclusive, even if you don't consume our products, we want you to be a part of our events, and just be a part of everything we're doing. So we're constantly out especially in Los Angeles, where I'm based in the company's based and we're out for helping, you know, support bands predict producing events and activating other music festivals, but also, you know, being a being a an additive and amplifying experience for bands in the studio, when they need that that creativity or some way 12:18 so so you're you're you're supplying bands with heavy grasses, they go into the studio, is that what you're saying? 12:24 Yeah, sometimes you had you needed to write a really great solo. And then a lot of times instead of, you know, this is what they use as their outlet to get creative and they smoke cannabis. But another thing that we utilize cannabis for is the relaxation part where a lot of these guys are using it to go to sleep like myself. I've been an active cannabis user since I was 12 from Colorado, and cannabis has always been my go to to help relax and go to bed and my mind's constantly racing our car or going to school or playing football or whatever was in Canvas was always that, you know, allowed me to kind of relax and go to bed and start my day over. 12:59 Alright, so you have you're not a you're not a medical cannabis. But let's say that I'm a 65 year old heavy metal fan, and I have glaucoma. Can I enjoy your product at a concert and maybe have some side benefits of the medicine? 13:15 I'm sure I'm sure you could but we're not going out there basically tell you that this is going to help a block home if you're smoking cannabis in that realm we're expecting you to go out it's adding to your you know, I'm a big we call whiskey and weed pairing. So I constantly like pairing my whiskey with my jack and cokes and I'm going to a concert. So that adds to my experience, it creates a different euphoria for me. And that's always been a part of my culture in the way I've experienced live music. So I think for a 65 year old heavy metal fans going and Ozzy Osbourne concert, he's probably has a cannabis alternative that's helping with his golf glaucoma. And he's a part of our community just to hang out and enjoy the enjoy the concert with us. 13:51 So David, you heard that side of things, and you know, the spirits community, you know, it's very, very much about drink responsibly consuming responsibly. Is there a concern from the distilled spirits Council, you know, that the the connection that combination of, of marijuana and spirits, you know, could lead to a non responsible experience? 14:18 Well, obviously, any product can be consumed responsibly, and any product can be consumed. non-response and responsibly. You know, we, you're right, we discourage, we encourage responsible drinking. If you think you have a drinking problem, or if you think you're going to have a few drinks and drive we are we, we discouraged that. Uber is a wonderful lifesaver for a lot of people. So you have a lot of options today, in order to keep your consumption of anything responsible. 14:52 And now Klay, let's go back, Sammy said You said you started smoking at 12. Now, yeah, even by today's standards, that would be pretty, pretty well illegal. 15:02 I mean, yeah, I mean, very much illegal. And even in Colorado, during that time, it was illegal. I still remember, this is not the way you're supposed to consume and introduce yourself to a product just like when you're drinking whiskey for the first time, you're not going to the backyard moonshine, or, to try it for the first time to get the ultimate experience and really get the benefits benefits of what you're looking for. I know alcohol is a slippery slope, when it comes to that the cannabis kind of falls into a different category in our eyes, you know, to David's point, we're about healthy consumption as well and safe consumption. You know, medical drugs have do not drive warnings on their on their bottles. You know, we have warning labels on ours, the alcohol industry costly, does great advertisements, pushing saved tapes, save consumption and driving and drinking and driving responsibly or calling Uber like you mentioned. So we're just a little different when it comes because we pair and I know when you don't want to pair with alcohol with traditional prescription drugs. But I think, you know, when you look at cannabis and data kind of kind of kind of shows the story where there isn't really any data show correlating a cannabis consumer to a death in the history of the product, there's plenty of correlations that kind of could bring other products into it, especially the prescription drug business, the fat and only and like the oxy Cotton's and, and the different types of opiates. That's an epidemic. And that's really why I think cannabis is kind of coming as an alternative. Now with the way technology is caught up, people are educating themselves and saying, hey, this may have been a prohibition product for so long, because it may be a mess with so many other categories, like the paper industry in the logging industry at the time. And and now the prescription drug business. So it's it's an exciting time, it's all about education, that's what we're all about is just educating people on our product at the same time. We're not a medical, we're not a medical product. 16:49 Now, to be clear, there have been according to the DEA, there's not there's not reported overdose deaths in marijuana, but there are deaths are linked to, you know, over use and driving. The Arkansas Department of Health just issued an advisory on cannabis, you know, so there are there are some things there are over consumption can be, you know, can be fatal. And there's also some studies that show that marriage, you know, the use of marijuana at a certain age can you know, trigger, schizophrenia and some people I mean, David, when you see those things, and when the spirits industry hears those things, and they hear the discussion of it, there's not as No, marijuana is not as fatal as alcohol. Is there a sense of, I don't know, pushback from the alcohol industry to you know that because at the end of the day, a lot of these marijuana when you're talking about marijuana, they lot of times push down on spirits. 17:59 I you I mean, let's be clear. Obviously, impaired driving is a big concern of ours, because what tends to happen is right now we have a breathalyzer out there with a breathalyzer technology has been around for I don't know, 5060 years now. In fact, it was the distilled spirits Council and some of its predecessors, they actually invested the money that developed the original breathalyzer, what tends to happen now is if you have if you're, if someone is pulled over with a suspicion of DUI, you can do the breathalyzer fairly quickly, if they test positive for alcohol, all automatically becomes an alcohol impairment, you know, because they simply don't have the ability to test for anything else. We think that's an important issue from a public policy standpoint, not just from the fact that we don't want to take all the blame for impaired driving, if it's not our products that are causing the real impairment, but we just think from a public policy standpoint, you need to know what people are doing. You need to know, in order to because so much of trying to reduce abuse of drinking or your abuse of consumption of anything, is to know what people are doing, and then you can properly educate them. So from that standpoint, we we need to we need to know what's causing impairment. And I, everyone I've talked to that's in the marijuana industry now is really on board with that notion. And, you know, they're advocating for research that could develop the for lack of better term marijuana breathalyzer. 19:39 Let's go to some mail set Klay brought up because he said he was a big proponent of pairing marijuana with whiskey as a as an enjoyment. Where did I slit Yeah, yeah, like Ferris. So hey, so good at my coconut 19:55 got my chocolate got 19:57 my memory marijuana? 19:58 Maybe it's a coconut milk? Wanna? Or maybe it's a coconut chocolate cannabis cookie? No, 20:04 it'd be that's it. That's an aggressive cookie. 20:08 So where does the distilled spirits council stand on the pairing of spirits and marijuana? 20:18 Well, right now, we haven't taken a position really. But in general, we would discourage you, particularly if you're going to be driving from using both products. You know, ultimately, let's 20:34 say you're, let's just say you're in your apartment all by yourself, you got a little something here, and you got a little something there. And they want a pair, both of them Does, does the distilled spirits Council have a position on that? 20:47 We don't have an official position on that, you know, we in general, discourage the use of both of them, if you think you're you're going to be driving at all, a lot of this is an matter of personal preference. You know, ultimately, you, you have to know what your limits are. You have to know how you can consume any product responsibly. 21:13 David, I got another kind of question for you, too, because Clay brought up a good point. And you know, he he's the proponent of the whiskey and spirits pairing. However, you don't see anything out there on the spirit side of the house that are saying like, Oh, yeah, like, we are going to embrace a lot of things that's happening inside of the cannabis world. You don't see, I'm not even to put a name out there of saying they're doing this. But should there ever be? Or is there? Is it just bad juju all around to actually have a brand say we're going to try to align themselves with, with marijuana? 21:45 Well, we're still doing a lot of research. I mean, obviously, this is a relatively new field, the federal government is finally starting to do more research into impairment levels. We're going to wait until the sciences in before we really been any kind of recommendation on that. 22:03 And it's important to note that every everybody reacts to these things differently. You know, the most of the studies that most of the studies that are out there, you know, basically have that kind of caveat is that not everyone responds to weed and, and booze the same way. And I kind of want to have a kind of, I want to know, you'd mentioned you guys are studying this What? What are you all looking at? From a as it as a trade organization? 22:38 Well, we're we're not the ones doing the actual research. It's really the federal government that's, that's doing the research. So, you know, ultimately, what we hope to find out is, you know, just what the various level impairments are, what level of consumption is safe, what level of is not safe, those sorts of things that, you know, you're you ultimately want to look at. 23:06 And I'll say this to constellation brands, which, you know, is a multi billion dollar company, it has interest in wine has interest in beer. And it's been making a heavy play into the American whiskey scene with the purchase of high West investments in Nelson the Greenbrier and Bardstown bourbon company, among others, they have bought stakes and marijuana companies. So that kind of tells you that the writing's on the wall, that these spirits brands support this now. So let's talk about how this is going to look when they get when this becomes federally legal. If it becomes federally legal. Well, how will the spirits companies use marijuana in their portfolio? David, I'll give you the first crack at that in terms of what you might think, 23:56 oh, gosh, well, you know, we don't make the bond decisions the purchasing the investment decisions for our member companies. So that's, that's really a question that you would want to address to them. You know, 24:10 certainly Ronnie I 24:12 asked several of them to come on, but none of them would come on, they all said you so wonderful. So they said you talk to you 24:21 you know, right now from what we seen, however, with regard you know, any company is always going to look for new products to sell and if a company believes that you know, a cannabis based product will fit into their portfolio whatever it might be. You know, that's that's ultimately up to them. We obviously because we are the distilled spirits council we concentrate on distilled spirits so yeah, very much aware of that the that constellation is made a rather large investment I think it was $4 billion and they're they're looking to develop that that side of their business 25:05 Klay What do you think what is what does 25:09 what does a spirits and marijuana product look like? As we see these investments coming in from larger companies? 25:17 I think it's not even about the current spirits in the current portfolio. I think they're looking at a category and being first the party before a lot of their competitors are and saying, Hey, you know, we all kind of fall in the same category, which in the wreck category, which is social, you know, social gatherings use for social purposes, at times, you know, or sitting at home to relax in the wine industry is very similar to how cannabis, some of the cannabis companies are operating not a heavy grass, per se, we I think we operate more like a whiskey company would. But I think constellation going and looking at it as they were going to go in and be first the party where they can own a category and leverage what they already know. I mean, these companies have no massive distribution, they know how to market brands, they know how to deal with content, clients issues, and we're worried about legalities. So I think they're just getting prepared for all 50 states to open up and then it can be really game on for these brands. I think with CBD and the Farm Bill passing and all these things that are just happening now recently with legislation I think you're going to see not a lot of infusion products and spirits industry because they haven't I don't think they're going to allow that to be legal yet with I think there needs to be more research done. 26:26 Asians You mean like a cannabis flavored whiskey you know think that'll have 26:30 CBD infused whiskey. You know, there's ways to do it still I mean, there's books out there teaches you how to infuse your whiskey with cannabis or any any spirit or beverage I but I think it's not going to be necessarily that coming first, I think they're going to introduce a new product through the through the umbrella somehow, which could be different than you know, another constellation wine product 26:52 if they allow you so you think the play is not necessarily to combine the two but to have a stake in the category as they would anything else. 27:01 I think these companies know distribution better than anybody and big business like that, especially the tobacco business as well. They're going to come in and put real infrastructure on a mass scale once all 50 states open up and ultra just invested on the opposite end on the tobacco side not to jump around it's a different conversation. They're doing the same thing in Canada as well getting prepared we're it's a very unique time to see those two companies go up there and throwing down billions of dollars into the category 27:29 Clay there's another kind of thing I want you to really touch on just a little bit because we are really an education program and I'm sure there's a lot of people that are going across you 27:39 know we were on PBS and all these other 27:45 iTunes the new home of PBS the but there's no I walk around downtown. It can be in Kentucky you could be in states that aren't legal yet you see signs it says like a we now carry CBD oils. people an idea of like, what does it stand for? And really, what is that? What is that product versus the traditional? You know what people really think what marijuana is 28:10 a difference is is basically the psychoactive CBD has zero psychoactive properties. So it can be used strictly for the health benefits side of cannabis than the product and the cannabis. So you know, there's different cannabinoids that go into the plants and different plants out there that do different things and provide different relief so the CBD can be extracted and it's not necessarily a smoker but I mean you have CBD vape pens out there for people that want to consume it that way. But a lot of its going into topical creams you know more health and wellness side A CBD pill for example can help you stay focused and help with anti anxiety at the same time so but without you feeling like you're quote unquote stoned right? The THC side which is still federally illegal is the psychoactive side and that's the stuff that makes you feel high. So I guess that's the best way easiest way I can determine you know, help your audience you know signify the split between the two this THC which is still federally legal. My company have you grass is a THC driven company so we we go on feeling the effects of using cannabis. CBD is the other side where it can help with the anti inflammatory it's used for more of the health and wellness side and the prescription benefits 29:24 and so you know, your uh, your your your spirits, drinker as well, kind of talk about what you think that your business has had on you. And if you think it actually has an impact on the spirits industry as well. I mean, when people have a choice, they're gonna go to the store and they're going to see two things on the shelf. Or they're going to choose one of the other Do you think there's still room for both of these that it's really not going to inhibit any sort of growth? 29:51 I mean, me personally, I don't think it really inhibits I know that for some people, they'll use cannabis and only consume cannabis that night drink, but those people are trying not to drink. So those people already understand and, and the big thing is understanding educate ourselves on consumption, which we've talked about a lot. David brought it up. You know, some people know they can't drink whiskey, so they drink clear liquor. And some people can't drink liquor at all. Some people can't drink beer. So I mean, I think it's understanding how to how to use it. Some people can't smoke weed and drink whiskey. I think I'm I think I just under over over time and learn how to pair it properly without me getting completely blown out of my mind. But it goes back 30:29 to education. It's your Viking jeans. 30:33 Nobody goes back to education and understanding Hey, if you know and I had to learn the hard way, I'm not gonna lie just like I had to learn the hard way. And when I first drink tequila for the first time, I drank too much and I threw up. You know, I smoked too much. And I passed out while I was drinking whiskey. So I think it goes back to healthy consumption. If you're going to smoke and pair you're definitely not driving. And we're not trying to advocate for that either. But we also create a strain of weed that pairs well with whiskey or blackjack straight. Which for your audience that doesn't know what cannabis looks like. This is what cannabis looks like. Is it pairs well with bourbon and whiskey because it's a spicier flavor when you consume it and out pairs, well, the openness of the barrels. So So we've pulled a strain out specifically because we understand that our cannabis community is already a member of the whisk community, and they're going to engage with both. So to answer your question, I think it's going to be case by case I think sometimes they're going they're just going to want to grab a bottle Blanton's or they're going to go in and say, Hey, I'm hanging out with my boys. I'm going to roll a joint. I'm going to get an eighth of heavy grass. I'm gonna get a bottle of, I don't know, patties and let's let's go let's go have a good time with my boys tonight and play some cards. 31:43 All right, David, what are the numbers say? Because I know that you're you're in the spreadsheets in the database. And so what what does that look like? Hey, it's Kenny here and I want to tell you about the Commonwealth premiere bourbon tasting and awards festival. It will be happening on August 24th. In Frankfort, Kentucky. It's called bourbon on the banks. You get to enjoy bourbon beer and wine from regional and national distilleries while you struggle with things along the scenic Kentucky River. There's also going to be food vendors from regional award winning chefs. Plus you get to meet the master distillers and brand ambassadors you've heard on the show, but the kicker is bourbon pursuit. We're going to be there in our very own booth as well. Your $65 ticket includes everything all food and beverage on Saturday. Plus, you can come on Friday for the free Bourbon Street on Broadway event. Don't wait go and buy your tickets now at bourbon on the banks.org and through June 30. 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Rackhouse whiskey club is a whiskey the Month Club and they're on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer. 33:38 Along with two bottles of hard to find whiskey rackhouses boxes are full of cool merchandise that they ship out every two months to members in 40 states and rock houses June box they're featuring a distillery that claims to be the first distillery to stout a whiskey rack house whiskey club is shipping out two bottles from there, including its beer barrel bourbon and beer barrel rye, for both of which were finished in barrels that were once used to mature America's number one selling bourbon barrel aged stout. And if you're a beer guy like me, you would know that's New Holland dragon milk, go to rock house whiskey club. com to check it out. And try a bottle of beer barrel bourbon and beer barrel rye use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. All right, David, what are the numbers say? Because I know that you're you're in the spreadsheets in the database. And so what what does that look like? 34:29 Yeah, well, it's a sad commentary on my life, I think, but 34:36 you know, we obviously, we have followed those with great interest for a number of years now. And we've looked at the three states that have the longest history of recreational legalization, namely, Oregon, Washington State, and of course, Colorado. And in all three of those states, we see no impact on our product. In fact, we took a look at the only way you could really determine what's happening to spirits, beer or wine volumes, for that matter, is to look at the excise tax collections, because that's really the only source of data that's going to include the entire market. And when we've done that, we see that well gee, distilled spirits consumption on a per capita basis since the legalization of recreational marijuana in those three states is up a little bit. And then when we you know, we've been gaining market share from beer for God, nine out of nine, the last nine years and probably I don't know 15 out of last 16 or 17. When we look at total beverage, alcohol consumption in those states, we see that on a per capita basis, it's either roughly flat or up slightly. So there's really just no evidence industries, three states that marijuana legalization has has had an impact on us whatsoever. 36:07 Okay, well, I guess we can just end the podcast now. And we got our answers. 36:12 But to that point, I like to blame it. The I know, the craft beer industry is one of those categories on a national scale. And David, you know a lot more about this than I do. If that numbers falling. I can blame craft beers because they're cannibalizing themselves. You know, there's too many options out there. There's no brand loyalty. And when you have that it's the Wild West. And it's segmented. And that's just my opinion. But you can probably talk better to that. 36:40 Yeah, well, you know, I mean, obviously, I've counterparts that do the same thing that I do for the craft beer industry, as well as for regular beer. And they say the same thing that Yeah, beer is down. But when we look at the states that have legalized marijuana, we don't see results that only different from states that don't have legalized recreational marijuana. So as a result, they they don't tend to really be so conservative. They haven't seen any impact from the legalization of marijuana, they the results are always the same, regardless of whether or not it's legalized or not. So I know that a lot of people claim that marijuana is supposed to have this massive impact on beverage alcohol, who knows maybe one day it will but you know, again, when you look at the states with the longest history, it is not and, you know, particular with Colorado. Wow, when you look at the Could you imagine a product becoming more socially acceptable than marijuana in Colorado right now? You know, it's no one has a problem with you using marijuana in Colorado. So, you know, I think we're getting some wonderful data from Colorado right now, just because it's in my mind, it's it's almost a fully developed marijuana market. When you look at the the rate of growth and whatnot in retail sales, it's, it's declined, or it's not that the rate of growth is slowing fairly dramatically, which is more or less to sign up a developed market. And, you know, pretty clearly it's not had any impact on beverage alcohol sales. 38:25 David, kind of another question about that, you know, you had talked about claims and what people say, what are some of those claims that maybe people were worried about that they want you to lobby against to say that marijuana could impact their their their distilled spirits? sales? 38:42 Yeah, well, first off, there has never been an effort, at least on the part of the distilled spirits council to try to hinder in any way shape or form. In marijuana legalization, we typically don't take a position on it. You know, we we do have several recommendations, which the marijuana industry agrees with the you know, we want fair taxation, we'd like to make certain that there are, you know, we have an advertising code, we advocate for sensible advertising code, and, you know, we advocate for, you know, keeping it out of the hands of, of younger people, just really sensible regulations that be honest with you. From what I seen, most of the people advocating for legalized marijuana agree with So, you know, from that standpoint, we've never there's never been? I know, I've I've heard rumors about big alcohol, trying to stop marijuana. Well, I guess you can consider me part of big alcohol and we've never had any such effort. 39:46 And I haven't heard that either to counter that. I haven't heard about big alcohol or really the spirits industry trying to handcuff our growth. It's really been the prescription drug industry, handcuffing US and other categories. Outside of I've heard rumors, a certain craft beers and certain big beer business. But it's really, I haven't heard much of it. I've heard it all. On the other side on the prescription drug side? 40:08 Well, there's been there were 40:12 I can't remember the exact story, but it was when Bernie Sanders was running. And there the there were some distribution companies that were that their emails became public or something like that. And that's, that's really where the big alcohol against marijuana came in. You know, 40:33 David, you remember that? You know, 40:37 I do know that the distributors, from time to time have voiced their opinion that, you know, you have a three tier system for beverage alcohol wouldn't be great to have a three tier system for marijuana as well. I think that might be really what you're getting at. And, you know, it's it's the only natural that's, you know, they would want a piece of the business. 41:05 And I'm trying to find it here. And this was not something that I had added top heavy. 41:11 Well, while you look for that, I'll throw another question to David, because there's a question that came up in the chat. You know, you talked about Colorado and how it's been sort of sweeping, and it's just part of the culture, and it hasn't really had a whole lot of impact on the economics of spirits themselves. There was a question that says, but if you if you work for a national company, it could actually prohibit them from utilizing drugs within sir sorry, marijuana with inside of their state because it's against the corporate drug policy. So 41:40 I have no idea really what the the demographics are of big companies that are based in Colorado, if there's the workforce works for national companies that wouldn't allow that. So how accurate Do you think that that data really is? Real quickly, it was a part of the WikiLeaks dump. And there was evidence in there that they were trying to undermine marijuana legalization, and it was largely connected to Bernie Sanders his belief in ending prohibition on marijuana. So yeah, so that is accurate. It was and it was the people linked to it was the wine and spirits wholesalers of America. So go ahead. 42:20 Well, what was the question again, 42:22 about the data accuracy of Colorado Raza residents? You know, 42:28 if if you're a corporation, and particularly if you're operating heavy equipment, or something of that sort, you know, you have the right to protect yourself. I mean, you're out there, you have potential huge liability. You know, Is it right for them to have a zero tolerance policy? Well, you know, that's, that's a difficult question. You know, if if they are going to be working, if you're going, you're working for a company, and there's the potential that, you know, you could potentially do some sort of physical harm. You know, 43:10 that that's every corporations worst nightmare? 43:15 No, absolutely. And there's another question that came in the chat. And this one is, is more more directed at Klay? Here? And there was it was talking about kind of like experimentation and figuring how are you mixing or infusing and he said that there is a blueberry weed infused vodka that's out there. He's got one that's a nightcap that has a relaxing CBD oil, and is brandy. Do you sort of see this as as the future of what people can experiment with kind of using their own oils and their own stuff? 43:47 I don't know legally, where you could sell that. I mean, it sounds like that's a black market product. I mean, that's kind of our problem right now is we deal with black market where legally you can't buy that market and in store because you can infuse a little liquor, liquor and alcohol have to be in a separate wall with cannabis, we're not allowed to coexist together still. So people are going to do that there's that you can google it right now and teach yourself how to make it. You know, you're going to find products out there that are going to hit the market and their stores are going to sell them. You know, we I live in Venice Beach. And there's a ton of black market products out here that are just normally sold down the street that are in regular stores, just because it's the part of the culture here. So I think it's until we get a real full legislative kind of structure around it just like the ABC laws and all that you're going to have the Wild West with us for the moment until more states open up and the government kind of create some structure with us. 44:44 What is that? What is that goal? To sit there and try to move this across more state lines for your business or for the industry in general 44:54 goals, education, and then in the stigma. The problem is you have stoner stigma and the teachings young moments and all that stuff, which is which is a part of it. You know, 45:03 they said reefer madness, reefer madness. That's what I remember. It's 45:06 funny because our company we take reframe reefer madness, and we use that as our advertising campaign. So we've kind of flipped it where Yeah, it's good. It's bad, dangerous, stay away. It's cannabis, it's going to ruin your life like, no, it's it's education and understanding the the incredible benefits of the plan depending on who the user is. And if he's properly educated can find it so you can find something that may and our battles never been with the spirits and beer industry. At least on my side, our battles 100% been on the prescription drug side. So, you know, for us, it's just ending the ending the stigma, where I can call my homies at any of these whiskey companies and saying, hey, let's do an incredible collab together. Let's bring in some artists, let's do some art. Let's Fred, you know, I'll bring some Fred. Fred comes in, he does a whiskey tasting and, and I can bring a cannabis expert, and we do a canvas tasting and collide them. That's the ultimate goal is where these worlds can come collide for me. Because Because the whiskey culture, especially in my world, the whiskey culture, and the cannabis culture kind of coexist together at all times, just like beer. And I think there's ways of us helping each other grow through education. But our big problem is stigma. And people thinking that this is you know, the old This is your brain. This is your brain on drugs, commercial. Any questions? Well, I Fred's point, smoked weed. 12, for the first time did not become a stoner went to college, played college football have been on my own since I was 18. And it's funny, I'm from Colorado, so I'm a little different. So move from Colorado to California. So I'm a little bit fortunate in that. And and, and so it's never fully affected me, it's only helped me control things without me taking a pill. 46:41 Yeah, I will say, I was just at a conference in Washington, two weeks ago, where at least the short term political goal for the marijuana industry seems to be to get expensive, be able to deduct this expenses. You know, that's, that's a big concern right now. Also, they said, they would really like to get off of marijuana off of schedule one. So that you can make it easy to do research and then it also financially, they can start using the banking system. So they do have a number of short term political goals. 47:23 But it goes back to education. And then before before these politicians that are kind of driving the ship here, they've got to be educated on the benefits or the we've got to create change. And that's that's where our big Hancock has always been with prescription drug lobbyists. And then that and before then the paper industry and the logging industry because with have been legal, you're going to see a big change in that world very quickly. 47:47 What do you mean by the way, there's with me in legal how, what what sort of big changes do you think? 47:52 Well, hemp is a very, very strong structure, very similar to what you would get with wood and paper. But it grows from faster, it's it's cheaper to make it's it's, it's, it doesn't take up the same amount of land. It there's a lot of different usages for it as well. So there's, it doesn't make stronger rope can make your paper can it can kind of replace other things that have been big industries in this country for a while that aren't necessarily great for the environment at the same time have provides an alternative that 48:26 and by the way, there are hemp Bourbons that will be hitting the market soon and be rolling has took the hemp seed and added to a mash bill. And they are resting in their warehouses right now. 48:41 But the big thing you got to understand is what I was talking about infusion hemp and cannabis are not the same thing. They're been declassified. They're separate. That's where the Farm Bill allowed the hemp to come in. David, I think you're about to say something. 48:54 No, I was just gonna say the hemp does not have the THC in it. Yeah, there's no psychoactive properties. So 49:01 it's not it's not necessarily CBD either. So it's coming from that cannabis plant. So it's, it's just a different, it's just different. It's it and that's where they separated allowed it to be used in all 50 states now. 49:14 So for it, you know, I kinda want to get your take on this, you know, we've got we've got David's take that it's not going to have any sort of effects and in the broader market, I know that you are well connected to other distilleries and people that have, you know, that their financial stake is in is in their their spirits? Have you have you talked to any of them not without naming names or anything like that, where where they could potentially see that this is a future risk for their, their products. 49:43 Yes, I know, one in particular, who is not a distilled spirits council member who is adamantly opposed to only legalization of marijuana based solely on the fact of what he believes it will do to spirits. And this is a this is a, you know, a company that will put up a big fight, when that when the time comes, and we'll do everything it can to block people from infusing marijuana and alcohol, you know, because this is a, I would say, a very conservative thinking company that still still looks at the 1930s, you know, saying like, you know, they still try to be they try to do things that that would, you know, that could fly even under in the blue states, you know, so they're overly conservative and fear that, you know, there may be regulation put upon them. And, and the fact is, is kind of a lot of what David said, there's still still more studies to be done and everything I hear Klay advocating for are things that he would not necessarily I don't I don't think anybody what once once the marijuana is in someone's head, and once the spirit of someone's hand, you know, that then becomes an individual responsibility. I think what you're going to see the spirits community do is I think you will see a rift between the combination of those two things in a bottle, and that is that the marijuana and fleet fused bourbon, the marijuana flavored vodkas and stuff, I think that's where you will see more of the fight go on within the spirits industry. 51:28 And and I guess the question for you is, is it really a question of the spirit in general and the category classification, or is it a pocket book? Because as as Joe goes to the store to figure out what he wants to do this Friday night, if you got a bottle of bourbon or you got it out, or an eighth of we what's what's what's the choice? Is that what they're really worried about? 51:51 I that's a good question, David, go ahead. You know, 51:54 I will say oftentimes, when you look at survey data, indicates that you know, yes, these cannabis and alcohol are very much substitutes. However, when we've done focus groups, and you ask people who are marijuana users about their use of alcohol, oftentimes they're confused by the question because I say well, you know, cannabis marijuana's marijuana and alcohol is alcohol and we use them on different occasions Now obviously, there's always going to be some overlap you know, without a doubt, but I think perhaps the instances of overlap and therefore the substitute ability are a little bit overblown and you know, they're just not what people actually thought that they were 52:42 so he said occasion so like a three year olds birthday party is that now the 52:47 ripping Jays where you should be using either one of them but yeah 52:52 he's like I don't know about that 52:55 blows my mind because this is the category it's the data is out there this is this is good gonna be federally legal at some point, like more of the majority of the states in the union right now or at least in a medicinal state right now. This is going to happen if I was an alcohol company just like constellations doing I'd be learning everything I would about it so I can be be the go to of these cannabis consumers. You know, if there was a brand out there that said, Hey, Perrier whiskey with us and it competed with my my go to, I would give it a serious consideration because they're, they're connecting with me on a personal level now. And to me, that's how you can connect to a consumer. 53:32 Yeah, absolutely. With that, I think we'll we'll start wrapping up and Fred, unless you had any other questions that you kind of want to 53:38 tell her I wanna I wanted, I want to delve into this pairing a little bit more, because I think for a lot of people who regularly pair their stakes with bourbon, they're having a hard time figuring out how the hell do you pair smoking some pairing smoking weed, with? With whiskey? Because these are you smoke a cigar? Well, that's you said a cigar has flavor on the cigar has a flavor on the leaf. Are you suggesting that you guys have flavor on on that 54:07 the plant is a flavor. So every you know, we all have unique flavors, you have the strains, right? So the big thing in cannabis right now is we're trying to get away from the whole, if you don't know it into coast TV, I mean, you know, into cause more of the relaxation kind of put you to sleep strain. And this is more of an upbeat, creative, keep up thought process control. And then you have these hybrid strangers or more body highs and they can, you know, lean one way or the other. But there's flavor profiles in these cannabis strains. So there's, you know, there's just like when you taste bourbon Fred, you get tense of cinnamon or chocolates or something like that, you know, will get fruity flavors will get taste of orange and citrus and lemons and, and blueberries. And because the process of the cloning of these things now is there's flavoring starting to go on organically through other things, especially if you go to the extraction market. And we're pulling flavors out of the plant that organically in the plant that make it taste like juicy fruit. Now I know that's a problem with, you know, attaching yourself to a younger audience. But from me being a gum consumer, the only flavor I can consider it it's a tropical fruit flavor. But those are all natural flavors being pulled out through science. So yeah, there is ways of pairing so one of the reasons we chose our blackjack strain for heavy grasses, one of our first strains is that it has a spicier taste to it, which like I mentioned earlier, goes really well with with a bourbon on the you know, a bourbon neat, and that was the whole way of I could have a conversation with that. There's all their ways of flavor Rolling Papers all day. Full of pesticides too. If you really go through it I mean backwoods gets hit for pesticide problems. In the Rolling Papers. You know, Cannabis, the wonderful thing about cannabis is we're the most controlled industry from from from an agricultural standpoint. So there's so many rounds of testing going in and making sure it's clean. From the moment it leaves are the wherever it's been growing at to the moment consumers hand. 56:00 So there's not a barrel broker market for weed at this point is I trying to say there's there's 56:07 everyone's looking for the right strains. I mean, this is another obviously a, someone should write a book on this and there might be one out, but there's these legacy strains, legacy seeds that people are always looking for. And every strain of cannabis that's out right now kind of derived from 30. I think it's 13 or 14 original plants. So if you can find one of those plants is called Durbin, Durban poison. I think it's what it's called. But, you know, everyone's on the hunt for those because those are like legacy strains. So that's our Pappy, I guess. 56:34 Interesting. So Fred, you know, what this means is that you've just got more research to do to figure out if you can start doing these pairings. And you gotta be, you gotta be ahead of it. So when Kentucky gets the green light, you're the first one to capitalize on it. 56:46 Yeah, I knew you'd say that. 56:51 It's all it's all research and development. Yeah. But yeah, with that, gentlemen, I want to say thank you, again, for joining the show today. This was a fun conversation, because like I said, we're hitting on all the sins today. And and being able to figure out what what the impact of really what this means, especially to the bourbon consumers out there. And I think not even that maybe the consumers, maybe it's the audience that are the distributors and the distillers out there, and they can start taking this is a fresh nugget of information on how do they either adapt to the business, or do they capitalize on the business one of the other. So with that Clay I want you to give an opportunity just to let people know where they can find you either on social media or how to get in contact with you or anything like that. 57:35 Yeah, I mean, heavy grass, we're on Instagram, I think the best thing to do is go to our website, the heavy grass calm. That is our official website, you must be 21 and up to enter. So please make sure you're only 21 up I just liked I think the people listens. podcasts are required. But you can go there and find everything you can about get heavy grass, our lifestyle is a different websites get heavy.com that's where you can really get into the music and everything else we have going on. And then personally, you can always follow me on Instagram. That's where I'm most active at Clay Busch spelled like the beer, not the president. And, and that's how you can keep up with everything. I'm pretty active for everything we do. On my social. So where can is your is your product available in California, Colorado? Where is it available? Right now we're only in Los Angeles for a California Southern California, we're going to be here, you if you really want to get to know us, you got to come out to us. And you can come to one of our stores in Los Angeles, if you come out to take you to a show is fantastic whiskey bar called seven grand down here. We do our own pairings, and we have a good time. 58:41 Fantastic. We'll put that on the TripAdvisor reviews. 58:44 And David, go ahead if there's any way that people either want to get in contact with you or just learn more about the distilled spirits Council. 58:51 Sure you can find us at our website. It's the distilled spirits council.org. And there's information on there as to how to contact us and you know, just send a email to our public affairs department. And they'll be happy to get in touch with me. 59:05 Thank you everybody for joining in that we had a few people here on the chat giving some some information. We had some people that were joining us for the live. That's one of the great aspects of joining our Patreon communities that you can get early access to all these podcasts and everything else that we're doing before them. But make sure you also following us on social at Facebook, Twitter and Instagram at bourbon pursuit as well as also follow Fred Minnick on all those channels. And I'll let Fred plug everything because his list is never ending about everything that he's doing. 59:35 He's the busiest man I've ever met, by the way. 59:39 I don't know about that. Listen, I've worked with these festival promoters and they I don't know how they sleep because they always are putting out fires. So I would not compare what I do least bit to anybody who promotes some music festival. But you can find me on amazon prime. My show is bourbon up. I've got a YouTube series now called the curation desk, goes to subscribe to my magazine bourbon plus, find me on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. Just search my name. Fred Minnick. 1:00:06 Awesome. And what that will see everybody next week.

A jam packed episode. The first half is focused on the the largest Facebook group known for buying, selling, and trading bourbon and it’s encounter with Facebook staff about rule changes. We cover the news and share the information as it’s presented. In the second half of the show, we are joined by Marianne Eaves as she discusses her departure from Castle & Key and what’s on the horizon for her next adventure. This episode has a little bit of everything. Oh yeah, and a teaser about marijuana with bourbon which you can look forward to hearing more next week. Show Partners: At Barrell Craft Spirits, every batch they produce has a distinct flavor profile. They take pride in blending and preserving spirits for the people who enjoy them the most, you. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order with code "Pursuit" at RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Use code "BOB2019" for discounted tickets to Bourbon on the Banks in Frankfort, KY on August 24th. Visit BourbonontheBanks.org. (Offer good through 6/30.) Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Bottled-In-Bond and Bernie Lubbers. The Next Phase of the Bourbon Secondary Market. Facebook is cracking down. What will be the next iteration of the secondary market? When did you get the news and how did you feel about it? Will this start more segmented smaller groups? Are there any other platforms where the secondary market could exist? How does one have bourbon as a hobby and ensure that he or she is not becoming an alcoholic in the process? Are Sober Bars going to become a thing? What's new with Marianne Eaves? What was the response from other companies to you leaving Castle and Key? Are you interested in other spirits? Have you been trained in other spirits? What's your favorite style of gin? What's next for you? What do you all think about marijuana infused bourbon?   0:00 If by some chance you think that there's some background noise or you think it's being noisy, I'm going to put it on you to hit your mute button. I know last time everybody was talking over top of each other and 0:09 you saying Don't 0:11 talk to me. I don't know what to do. 0:14 The same time. 0:15 Yeah. All right. All at once. 0:20 You're doing now? 0:21 Yeah. Alright, so that didn't work. Well, we'll move on. 0:36 This is Episode 205. of bourbon pursuit. And we only have a little bit of news to go through today because it's the bourbon Community Roundtable, which is all about the news. Of course, the birthday bourbon is out of the gate. It's typically one of the first ones we see and hear about during the fall release season. Well, I guess it's that time because the 2019 edition, the specs have come out and it's going to feature and an 11 year old hundred and five proof expression which is the highest proof to date, a total of 120 barrels, which is still on May 15, 2008, and aged on the second floor of warehouse I master distiller Chris Morris and master taster Jackie's I can who have both been featured on the show previously talking about birthday bourbon selected and proved this year's limited edition, the 2019 old forced to birthday bourbon is going to be offered at an MSRP of 9999. And roughly 13,200 bottles will be available for purchase nationwide. Well, this episode, it's a doozy. The first half of this episode is focused on the largest Facebook site known for buying, selling and trading bourbon. And really, it's kind of a necessary evil because that's how valuations are really how they're created. But this is also a little pretty controversial in the underground sort of bourbon community because people thought there were ulterior motives involved. just want you to know, we try to be respectful and come at this from a very gentle stick approach. We cover the news. And the big news of this week was the letters of the admins that received them from bourbon secondary market, and they got these from Facebook officials. So don't get me wrong. There's still plenty of places on Facebook where you can get your hands on these goods. But this was a very high profile page. So we'll have to wait and see what happens. In the second half of the show. We're joined by Marianne Eaves, as she discusses her departure from castle and key and what's on the horizon for in her next adventure. Like I said, this show has a little bit of everything. Oh yeah. And there's a teaser about marijuana with bourbon at the end, which you can look forward to hearing more about next week. With that, let's hear from our good friend Joe over a barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred Minnick with the above the char. 2:44 Hi, this is Joe from barrell craft spirits. 2:47 every batch we produce has a distinct flavor profile. We take pride in blending and preserving spirits for the people who enjoy them the most. 2:53 You lift your spirits with barrel bourbon. 2:57 I'm Fred Minnick, and this is above the char. The box came into my office like any other box, the FedEx man dropped it off. I cut it open. I ripped it out and I pulled a bottle out. But the excitement that I felt when I saw the bottle was far different than when I usually get a 90 proof bottle or some new product from one of the big distilleries. This one had etched in the label, bottled in bond. It was Catoctin Creek, a rye whiskey out of Virginia. I said it next to other bottle on the bond whiskeys on my shelf. George decal bite on the bond Tennessee whiskey, dad's hat, bottle and bond Pennsylvania whiskey, tomfoolery bottle and bond Cleveland bourbon. It's made in the Cleveland area. And as I looked at these on my shelf, I couldn't help but feel the pride just overwhelming in my soul. You had bottle and bond from Virginia, Tennessee, Pennsylvania, and Ohio. It was absolutely phenomenal. Especially when you consider that 10 years ago, the bottle and Bond was almost extinct. You really only saw about 15 bottles on the shelf and those were mostly from heaven Hill. But as Bourbons started becoming more popular and as ride became more popular, you had one particular brand ambassador who was going around the world telling people about bottle of Bach. He's covered in tattoos plays bluegrass music wears belt buckles, it can tell you anything you want to know about bourbon history. His name is Bernie Lubbers. He's one of these guys that has the passion of 1000 bourbon reps. And that's because he knows his stuff. But more importantly, he believes it. And it's my opinion, that if it was not for Bernie out there discussing the heritage and importance of bottle and bond whiskey, that we would not be seeing George decal on the shelf or Catoctin creek or dad's hat touting being bottled and bought. If you want to learn about that history, check out his website. He's the whiskey professor. He's got a book, I've written about the history of the bottle and Bond Act of 1897. But really, in today's sense, I give all the credit to bottle and bonds return to one man, and his name is Bernie lovers. So if you happen to like buy all the bond whiskey, find Bernie on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram and tell him Thank you. Because if it wasn't for him, and his big giant tattoo on his arm, I don't know if we'd have bottled in bond right now. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, if you have somebody you would like to highlight and above the char hit me up on Instagram or Twitter at Fred Minnick. That's at Fred Minnick. Until next week. Cheers 5:46 Welcome back to episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon. This is the 33rd meeting and podcast recording of the bourbon Community Roundtable. It's this one, it's odd because we usually spend about a a day or two ahead of time kind of thinking of random topics. I always maybe sit there and look at some tweets Fred put out the week before and and see if like that's a makes good for a conversation or a topic. However, today this one sort of came all together like within the span of an hour and a half. It was the bombshell that kind of got dropped in one of the largest Facebook groups and we're going to talk about that here in a little bit. But Kenny's here, Fred and Ryan, join me here as well. How's it going tonight? fellows going? 6:30 Great. Oh, just Yeah. Do you know says that? It's okay to talk. 6:38 Go ahead. 6:40 No, it's funny. You're in your intro. I was thinking I was like, people may or may not know I delete social media during the week. So I normally have no tables are till about 30 minutes for I logged in today on Twitter. And I was like, Oh shit. I'm really behind. What what are we going to talk about? This is insane. So super excited about today's show. 7:01 It's a it's a riddle. Like, how do you piss off at the thousand bourbon enthusiasts in one one post? 7:07 Yep, exactly. Yeah. I mean, it's 7:11 it's interesting. And the thing is, is is like I think I think what's happening can play into a kind of like a larger kind of national conversation as well. So this is you know, and this is important for all of us right now to talk about 7:27 a good I people always like discussions on the secondary market. We don't like to think it exists. But of course it does. That's That's how that's how names get kind of brand names can get spread around. That's how valuations happen. So it's almost like a necessary evil but before we kind of start talking about that, I want to go around the horn as usual. Let the folks introduce themselves and we're going to go with on my left starting with Blake of bourbon 7:53 and he's on mute direction. 8:00 Me You know, I did too good of a job under no, I'm Blake from bourbon are always fun to be here. It's a you know, let's see the 34th bourbon roundtable in a row and the 34th time you've seen my face because that is the Cal Ripken of bourbon roundtable so thanks for having me. It's a 33rd but who's counting 33rd 8:22 that I'm going to be on next next month as well 8:24 yeah, let's see what that magic eight ball says 8:28 all right Brian sip and corn How you doing? 8:31 All right I'm doing great thanks for having me again night guys. Brian with sip and corn you can find me on social all the social media is sipping porn and online you can find all those things and more at bourbon justice calm and in sipping corn calm brings you to the same place. And looking forward to to tonight's conversation guys. 8:52 Alright, and the one of the highest ranking whiskey blogs out there today. Jordan from breaking bourbon, how are you? Good. Thanks for have us. This is Jordan, one of the three guys from breaking bourbon. com, find us on all the social medias at breaking bourbon along with Patreon and make sure to check out our updated Release Calendar update near daily. Awesome. 9:13 So with that, let's go ahead and kind of kick off the show, you know, we hinted at a little bit it was going to be talking about the secondary market. There's a large Facebook group in there, they don't really try to make it sound like it's hard to find it's actually called bourbon secondary market. So there's, there's no mystery whatsoever. But it's typically one of those places that it's a kind of underground, you have to be invited into it. And it's a buy sell trade form. I know that everybody on the call is a member of it. We've all been there before. So and before we kind of get into the meat of the subject I want to introduce Craig. So Craig, I'm going to hopefully don't screw it up again. rubric. Right? has joined us today. So Craig is one of the admins of bourbon secondary mark or bsm. So Craig, welcome the show. Hey, thanks. So Craig, before we kind of get into it a little bit, kind of talk about like how you came to be an admin inside of DSM. 10:11 Sure. Um, so I think everyone knows, the group's founder Oh, and, and through another group that Owen runs, I came to know him, which is the global bourbon hounds. And when you're running a group that size, you know, you tend to when it gets to a certain point, you tend to reach out to people that you trust to help you run it. And so that's that's basically how that happened. I mean, the group existed for I don't know a good year and a half two years before I came on board with the admin team and so that's basically what it was was just someone that would be somewhat level headed I don't know that we get bullheaded I 10:58 hope so. That is the secondary market 11:01 right so 11:05 but yeah, someone although I probably get accused of being one of the more I think with my emotions first type of admin in there, you know, we we try to be fair, it can be a challenge you know, we used to admin under our names in there and then we used to add many and under the bsm page just because guys get they get ridiculous. Their their bourbon feelings get out of control. They they can't contain it in their feelings journal. And so they have 11:46 I didn't create that, that that graphic. Well, I didn't create the actual feelings journal journal, but that was someone else that made that picture. But I do take credit for for putting that into the the bourbon secondary Mark vernacular as the word. So, but yeah, so that's, I mean, that's how it came to be was just, yeah, I'm happy to help out. I think now, whenever we are looking for admin, I think our first rule is, if someone is reaching out if they're actively pursuing being an admin, like, Hey, I love to help out. No, you're not nobody, it's not a good fit. Nobody wants an admin in there. But we're, you know, a close knit bunch of guys and but yeah, we admin from the page just because, you know, guys get crazy, they threaten your family. They threaten your livelihood, it gets ridiculous all over a silly bottle of bourbon. So. So that's, you know, that's that's why that changed, initiated. So today, you know, we have this email come out, that basically says Facebook's changing their community standards are tightening them. And so therefore, or any groups that buy sell trade alcohol, they want to have that activity cease. And so we, of course, had discussions about how that would affect us how we would operate. And so I think that what you're going to find is that the mega balls group, which we also run, for auctions, that's going to get I won't, I won't call it mothball. But we're just not, we're just kind of not going to be adding any map. So I don't have the logistics of that yet. Which Owen could probably speak better to that myself. And then regards to bsm. 13:41 Yeah, as like, let's let's focus on the bsm kind of, kind of what was because I know that's what a lot of people are here, really waiting for is, is what is what is going to be the next iteration. And by the way, for anybody that is just like, totally, like, not have any idea. they're new to bourbon, yes, there's this huge secondary market that exists. There's like 55,000 people in there and people post bottles for sale, people say they'll buy it, and then ends up and shows up your front doorstep. That's what he's kind of talking about this whole buy sell trade thing and this kind of open market that happens inside of Facebook. But Greg kind of talk about what is the, like the new ruling or kinda like the the next iteration of what is to come here, bsm? What's the, what's the go. So I think what 14:26 we're thinking now is that it may go to a straight deal by messenger sort of situation, I don't know that we've fully worked out the logistics of that. And I for myself, I just think, you know, admitting something like that will just be a nightmare. You know, in some ways, it's like a second job already. But I think that will kind of have to see how that plays out. I there hasn't been any, you know, doesn't make sense to go backup Facebook group, because you're under the same restrictions, right, your, your, your backup groups going to get tagged and, and knock down if you're engaging that activity. So right now, you know, what we've read into it is just change your group name. don't have anything in your group description about buy, sell trade, don't do any activity in your group. And of course, it only takes one upset person to direct that. So I think we're leaning towards a PM, a Facebook Messenger sort of based setup similar to us some other groups that are a little smaller than us, and our maybe secret and you got to know somebody to get in there. But used to be ran by a guy named Phil. You know, I think that, you know, certain groups that allow pm dealing and we never did, we are always about just having it done out in the open. So it it may very well likely be a one at from that. When we make a final decision. I know, Owen or you'll see a post via the bsm page will come up and say as such, but I think that's sort of the prevailing thought right now is that we would go to something one fat. 16:22 So Craig, you guys get this news today, what time today, like in the afternoon, 16:27 brown about I think I was just wrapping up with work when I checked my email. And I saw that, and then we started sharing that I think it was a little bit even earlier than that, when I hopped into the the admin chat and saw that there was already some discussion about that. 16:48 So you all you all have, you know, built something that is very much a part of the bourbon culture, especially kind of like the geek culture. And, you know, we A lot of us, you know, kind of look up to, you know, appreciate what you all have, you know, done. And now it's kind of be being taken away, you know, in some ways, I mean, you know, on the personal level, I know, you guys have been through a lot like in managing this, but you know, what were you all feeling when this came through what was going through your mind when, when you guys got this notice? 17:22 I think it's like, well, here it is, right? Like, there's always been, you know, guys have speculated about this sort of thing happening to, to our sorts of groups for for a while now have, you know, Facebook's done similar things with, with other groups that were of a sensitive subject matter that they felt like, we're not in line with their community standards. And so we've always felt like, you know, the hammer was going to fall at some point. And you know, if you remember quite quite a while back, we had that little kind of dust up when when bourbon groups just sort of vanished. And there, you know, Chicken Little came out and the sky was falling then right? And then does it feel different this time? It definitely like before, you didn't know what was going on. And again, you thought the same thing if you thought, well, this is it, you know, the hammer is finally falling. And Facebook has done away with us. And we were scrambling to figure out, you know, other social media avenues to form to do the same thing that we were doing now, this time around, it seems to be it seems a little more more serious, right? Like, there's a plan they're actively searching for, for the sorts of groups that are, you know, not by virtue of being a bourbon group, are you necessarily doing wrong, but whenever you cross that threshold to buy sell trade, then Facebook's not liking that. So? Yeah, it just feels like it may have more weight this time. We're we're treating it more. I think there's some within our ranks that that, you know, feel like maybe wait and see. There's also a little bit of disbelief, right? Like, was this just some, you know, nonsense email that someone has sent trying to troll us? Or, you know, something like that? several folks, even folks that manage large Facebook groups that are not bourbon related, been received an email. So yeah, I think just more serious is is a way to kind of sum it up so enough, that that, Owen and the rest of us feel like we want to react to it, to kind of just, you know, allow this sort of thing to carry on. And regardless of whether it's by Facebook, or not, like a quote, jurassic park here, like life will find a way, right. Like, if it's not hold on to your butts. Exactly. Like if it's not, if it's not via Facebook, you know, you can't keep a good flipper down right there. Right there, they're going to try to talk to their, their bottles of it, eh, Taylor small batch and, and well, or special reserve and, you know, whatever, no matter where they are, whether it's on in a smaller Facebook group, or Craigslist, or, you know, e Bay, God forbid, or what, you know, whatever, like, folks will find a way. So what we haven't talked about is any sort of moving to any other social media format. I think once upon a time we we mess around with a and I'll probably butcher the name may way. Page me we may way, there's actually people in chat that are 20:37 talking about that right now. I I'm unfamiliar with the platform 20:40 myself. Yeah. So we had we had messed around with that, you know, there, the issue you always run into with something like this is a group this size, when you switch over to something like that, like we had kind of sort of work the kinks out of admitting via Facebook. So then you switch to another platform and then admitting via that way, and trying to just figure out all the ins and outs of that is, is a bit of a headache. So 21:10 let's I feel like everyone's already on Facebook. So that's not 21:12 tough thing to 21:15 do just automatic because everyone's on their phone every single day. And so then they just see it 21:19 constantly. And it's just one more channel you got to keep up with when you have so many already. And it's like who wants another channel to mess with? But 21:28 you already have the older generation who's not on Facebook getting on there just for bourbon. Now, I don't even know what me we is. So 21:37 if any don't even know. 21:40 My barometer but migrate everyone over there's trouble. 21:44 No, no, you're totally right. I mean, Facebook is the logical platform for a lot of these kind of things, because that is where people spend their time already. And so Oh, and it sent us a message at least Blake and I a little bit earlier. And so I'll kind of talk about what he had had posted as the potential new rules. This is not official until it becomes official on the forum. But he had said that the kind of the new stuff is that you do not talk about buying selling or trading alcohol, because this is now against Facebook community standards. So that's no longer to be allowed inside the group. You're only here to see pictures, if you want to talk about to the person that posted a picture, then send them a pm. So kind of thinks of the old days of put something up there expected pm to come in as well. discussion posts are still not allowed go over to bourbon or for that, of course, thrown out the plug for you there Blake. But another way around this is that if you want to you just throw a link in to something that you had posted off of Facebook. So if you are posting it on bottle spot or Craigslist, you just drop the link in there, and then people can pm you that way. And that's how they can kind of get get in contact with you with that particular bottle. So it sounds like if there's a will there's a way because it's hard to lose a large majority of people like that, you know, with one fell swoop and then I'll take it another direction to and see what you guys think. You know, of course, will there's a way something's going to happen. And is this just going to start more segmented smaller groups and it's going to be hard to kind of find that that one big big group that was bsm. 23:26 I think as a community like and you know, I've grown tired of Facebook just in general you know, I've been I've been finding other avenues to do you know to buy and definitely definitely just from on a personal level. I mean I I don't enjoy Facebook I enjoy instagram and twitter but you know Facebook to me just It feels like it's it's become kind of like it went from somehow from being fun to like some mandatory you had you had to do you woke up you brush your teeth see check and see who posted a picture about their kid or something it just like in general, Facebook's losing a lot of steam and society is you know, as other platforms are growing, and I think the inevitability here, and I certainly I have an app and development, but I think the the inevitability here is that somebody creates something specifically for bourbon consumers. And frankly, it should be someone on this on this podcast right now. Because, you know, the fact is, is that this shits going to keep happening. I don't know if someone saw Mark Zuckerberg fake Pappy or what but the whole? It just it has. 24:42 What's that? It was me, sir. I always took you as a fake Pappy. Yeah. 24:49 lawyer? Absolutely. 24:51 Well, he knows how to get itself out of it. That's right law saying I can't refill this and sell it. But, you know, it's just this just just going to keep happening. And then they're going to say like, they're going to start regulating your, your private messaging and just, that's what what the fuck ever, you know. I mean, I actually, the last time this happened, I actually spent a lot of time reaching out to Facebook, getting comments from I spoke to people at Facebook. About the last time you know, the last time we had some sites go down and it just, you know, I mean, they played, they played me a fool. They played every wonderful like they fit, you know, they played our government a fool. Facebook just does whatever the fuck it wants to do. I mean, it's it's stills are information. They're just, they're turds. And I hate all of this. And, you know i, that the secondary group, there comes the feeling channel, you know, right. 25:51 Give me Give me my own mean. 25:54 Or, or as my friend Steve Sabin would say, fuck that guy. 26:00 But that's how I feel about Facebook, fuck. 26:03 I think at the end of the day, right, so we're all and he notices with the whole delete Facebook move and see a ton of different long reads on tech blogs or other areas, like people are still going to use Facebook man or walk right, you can't kick it, as Fred mentioned, you wake up, brush your teeth, check Facebook, but like, that's what people realize. You know, you might leave Facebook, but there are society stays on. But that being said, bourbon might leave Facebook, and people will go with it. Because at the end of the day, people want to make money, they're going to go where the money is. So it may be more of an inconvenience, and people might complain about it. But they're still going to go do it because they're going to want to sell bourbon and they're going to I want to buy bourbon and you know, free economy will find a way. So I think it's just gonna be a super convenience. And people complain about it a lot. That being said, about a lot of people just go wherever the money is going to take them, which is the end of the day is what it's all about anyways, right? We're not like talking about a community or like, Hey, you know, checking on each other, it's, I'm going there to make money, I'm going there to spend money, that's all it is. Right? 27:00 Drop, dropping the hammer, 27:02 I kind of the tough part is figuring out Facebook's logic in this. And to me, it's just they don't want the liability. You know, we've talked about this before on multiple different whether it's shipping or just online sales, whatever it is, Facebook doesn't want the liability. So they gotta at least put that out there. What I'm interested to see is, you know, kind of going back to asking, Craig, does this feel different than the times before? Is, is Facebook really going to follow through with this? You know, it kind of does sound like they are and it is a little bit different. But we've been down this road before and then maybe kind of a See See ya a move from them of who knows, I don't know what kind of legal ramifications they'd have. You know, Brian could probably speak a little more to that seems like in the past, there's been a whole lot of other shady or deals happen on like Craigslist, and that kind of stuff. And I don't know if those guys have ever gotten in trouble or prosecuted for for, you know, actual illegal behavior, or at least more illicit behavior. But it will see, you know, it definitely is a big platform. I've kicked around ideas of having having a solution on my site with seal box. But it's just like, there's a lot of issues you have to solve before you jump into that. And Facebook was always just the easiest route, because everyone was there. So that'll be interesting. Next, next couple of weeks, for sure. 28:30 Yeah, it sort of struck me is is and maybe this is just wishful thinking something that all pass that they'll crack down for a little bit. And you have to be doing things through links to bottle spot or direct messages or whatever. And then it sort of flows back into the way it was. I mean, that's, that's my guess, anyhow, I don't I think you're right, Blake, that it's probably a lot of See ya from Facebook. But other than that, it's, yeah, there's the underlying fact that in most jurisdictions, you can't sell person to person on the secondary market. So once they get their lawyers involved in telling them that I mean, that's, that's the road, they're going to go down every single time. You know, your rules, 29:16 rules, 29:18 rules, we make exceptions to the rules, we enforce the rules, and we get paid on at each step of the way. I'm 29:26 honest about it. 29:26 It's the greatest cycle there is in business. 29:29 Exactly right. Yeah. To get paid at every step 29:34 to I've wondered, too, is this going to push it more? Is there a lobbying effort? Maybe is this going to push it more toward like Kentucky's vintage spirits law and is there a push to get it into those retailer hands so that you have some assurances against fakes if you're buying it from a reputable vintage, you know, retailer, 29:57 that's a great point, I actually had this conversation with a friend of mine who's in the, is a really big seller. And I said, it's going to be great for for us because no one knows where to go to get bottles. And you know, and then if you have if yours, if you're a key person, and this in this chain, everybody's going to remember you from those groups, or whatever. And you're just going to call them and so you're going to have, you're going to have more, you know, more buyers from from that perspective. And I'll also say like, I get probably five, five emails a day, and I'm not even kidding, five emails a day of just someone from someone finding something in their basement. And I try to always push them into the legal ways to to sell that. And nobody wants to do that. So that's right. No One No one wants a record of the transaction. Everybody wants cash. 30:53 So just just low ball but keep the bottles here so 30:58 maybe that's what you 31:01 all those emails to me, Fred put an automatic 31:05 inquiring about said ever you get him to? Great Basin him to all of us. 31:10 One of us, right? 31:12 Of course. Yeah. 100%. And then it's like double what the secondary market is, like, was thinking maybe around $4,000 for Pappy 15? 31:21 Because it was their grandpa's and their grandpa? 31:25 So it has additional meaning to them. It sounds about right game of Go 31:29 Fish. 31:30 Yeah. Like the Nigerian prince all over again. So, you know, 31:36 while we're talking about sort of what the next phase of this is, I mean, do you think if there's any other platforms where something like this could live? Or is Facebook, the only one because if we roll back a few years, read it went through the same exact thing. And so Reddit kind of shut down their, their whole entire sales motion. And so when you look at the difference of what you see on Reddit versus what you see on Facebook, it's too opposite worlds, right? It is definitely more conversation focused, review focused, everything like that, versus Facebook, which is buy sell trade, and then you've got a few groups that are kind of like news. You don't really have a whole lot of people putting their tasting notes out there. But do you think if there's anything else have, 32:17 I mean, at the end of the day, right? So both Reddit Facebook, at its core, at least for like the bsm and the Reddit, it's just a V, it's an old school, the Bolton board, that's all it is. It's just an old school forum, if someone just creates a forum, and yeah, it's one more link, you have to go to a new moderator. That's all it is. Right? Anyone I mean, literally anyone watching right now or listening later on, not and do this, you just got to get the masses to go there. But that's literally That's hard. That's all we're talking about Facebook, and not at all was just an only thing. 32:48 The winning ticket here is that there is a there's a paywall to get into, you know, some kind of forum, you know, so you pay 50 bucks to be a member. And, you know, somebody takes on the liability of having the having the forum. And, and the it happens there, you know, and then it's not public, you know, you have to you have to get there, you have high level privacy. things in there, you know, and, you know, I used to belong to a few of those in like author circles, and, you know, I'd be I'd be communicating with, you know, high level authors. And, and there was no, I wouldn't be able to share that information. Of course, it's the internet. So you always could do it, but I would be penalized strictly by the the agreement I signed to be a part of it. So I think there is a way to do this, and we can protect the people who want to enjoy this hobby. But I'll go to the lawyer here in the ass. Is that possible? Could could we create some kind of 33:53 private forum where we get out 40,000 33:55 people in 33:56 there? What can you do? What can you do something like sports, but or gambling? Like, you know, but when I did used to gamble, I had a private website that I went to and yeah, back in the day 34:08 where you would going on? You 34:10 would, you know, you bet your and you'd have your bookie and you would meet him, you know, once a week to settle up. I mean, and it goes on, like all I mean, it still goes on. And so it seems like that could happen for some of these secondary markets also 34:22 means you have an intermediate intermediary 34:25 act like a I mean, it wouldn't be legal obvious, right. But I mean, sports bookies and gamblers are getting away with it. Nobody's cutting them down to shut it down. 34:32 Right. I think that's a bigger market. Much bigger market. 34:36 Yeah. aliens. There. So here, yes. And then that's why I'm not exactly sure. I haven't figured out why there's the focus on the whiskey market here. I mean, it's sure we've got 50,000, or whatever it is members of these groups, but what's that it's a drop in the bucket. It shouldn't really bother anyone. But when it comes down to it, it's in most jurisdictions, you're not supposed to do it. Fuck Facebook. 35:07 So it's Facebook now in the same genre as vodka in the lounge, red manic, a lot of hatred. We need a sign behind you, Fred. 35:20 like Facebook right now, you know, 35:22 Facebook has its purpose, you know? I mean, I don't know, I don't know what that purpose is anymore. But whatever. So vodka, vodka has no purpose. Let's just put it that way. 35:35 So to kind of wrap this up, one last question for Craig, what are you going to do with all your free time now? You know, 35:43 honestly, I was probably over the past few months have been one of the lesser active admins, but you know, it makes for you gotta do something while you're sitting on the toilet. Right. So now I guess I have to go back to reading or 35:56 something like that. 35:58 Wait, wait, wait, did you 36:02 You did all that admitting while you were on the toilet? 36:05 I mean, what else? What else? You gonna do it? Right? 36:12 Well, they weren't accepting donations. So you know, they weren't getting paid for the job. So it's, it's out of the graciousness of their hearts that they were doing. So absolutely. So Craig, thank you so much for coming on tonight and kind of giving us a breakdown of sort of the the history of what it is and sort of the future of what we can expect from the the new bsm going forward. So, again, as of today, everything is still provisional. So wait until you hear from an admin on a forum to kind of see what the, the actual future will hold. But if own or anybody else wants to that on the admin team, they will post the email that Craig was talking about at the very beginning that we were alluded to as well, so they can see that this wasn't just all smoke and mirrors. That was a real thrill threats happening. Alright. 37:02 Thanks, Greg. Appreciate it. Thanks, guys. 37:03 Yep, man. 37:06 So while we wait for Mariana to come on, you know, let's let's kind of switch it in a different direction. But let's go ahead and kind of take it as I mentioned, we had a we had a listener sort of reached out to us and talked about it was actually Patrick Nall. He reached out, and we all have bourbon as a hobby. But the question is, is how can we ensure that we are not becoming an alcoholic in the process? It's Kenny here and I want to tell you about an event that's happening on Saturday, August 24. Because I want to see you in historic downtown Frankfort, Kentucky, at bourbon on the banks. It's the Commonwealth premier bourbon tasting and awards festival. There's live music and over 100 vendors of food, beer, wine, and of course, bourbon. But guess what even will be there in the bourbon pursuit booth. You can check out all the events including tastings with the master distillers that you've heard on the show before and the People's Choice Award for the Best bourbon out there. You can get your all inclusive ticket for $65. Plus, you can join on the free Friday night event. Go and check it out bourbon on the banks.org and through June 30. You can get your discounted ticket offer two tickets for the low price of $110 when using the code be EOB 2019 during checkout at bourbon on the banks.org. You've probably heard of finishing beer using whiskey barrels but Michigan distillery is doing the opposite. They're using beer barrels to finish their whiskey. New Holland spirits claims to be the first distillery to stout a whiskey. The folks at Rock house whiskey club heard that claim and had to visit the banks of Lake Michigan to check it out. It all began when New Holland brewing Washington 97 there Dragon's milk beer is America's number one selling bourbon barrel aged out. In 2005. They apply their expertise from brewing and began distilling a beer barrel finished whiskey began production 2012 and rock house was the club is featuring it in their next box. The barrels come from Tennessee get filled a dragon's milk we are twice the mature bourbon is finished in those very same barrels. Rocco's whiskey club is a whiskey the Month Club on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories from craft distillers across the US. Along with two bottles of hard to find whiskey rack houses boxes are full of cool merchandise that they ship out every two months to members in over 40 states. Go to rock house whiskey club com to check it out. And try a bottle of beer barrel bourbon and beer barrel rye use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. The question is is how can we ensure that we are not becoming an alcoholic in the process? So is there something that you do to kind of curb that? Or do you just look at it like Mama, I'm a very high functioning alcoholic. 39:59 What was the wasn't Jimmy Kimmel who's the other late night guy, I'm sure anyways, he had a thing it was like, Thank you craft beer for making my alcoholism looking like a fun new hobby. And, you know, it can kind of morph into that. So it is a really a kind of a sad reality of it is you don't want that to ever be a problem for someone who you're enjoying a hobby with. And then all of a sudden, that's an issue. So for me, it's just like taking, you know, whether it's a week, few days, you know, some even go month off of drinking, I think that's really if you figure out if that and that dependence is there, and it's no longer fun, and you're just drinking to drink. So I think that's important to take time off every now and then. 40:46 So I think I'm know, I'm the only one here that does it full time. Right? Jordan Are you full time yet? 40:54 drinker? 40:57 This is like I know, Kenny, you'd said, this is the hobby, this is actually what I do for my living and have done so for more than a decade. And, you know, when I came, I, you know, I'll share something very personal, you know, I, I have PTSD for my time. And in Iraq. And I have been, I've been fighting that for, you know, since I've been home. And in that process, I went through a lot, you know, in my recovery, I went through a lot of therapy. And one of the things that I picked up was was mindfulness. And that and that is one of one of the reasons why bourbon really, why I think I really focused on on tasting was because mindfulness was basically a way for me to ground myself of something else. And you would have to think entirely about whatever it is you were doing, whether you were like you were in a year and a moment you're trying to visualize and feel everything in that moment. For me, I would visualize and feel everything on my palate. And, and when I am not able to taste something, I put the I put it down like in in oftentimes, you know, I won't, I won't be mindful of what day it is. And I'll be like, on a, on a anniversary date of something that happened, it could be you know, it could be, you know, the day that, you know, I saw someone get killed, it could be the day I almost got killed, it can be something like that. But there there are, there are things that in us that we don't always know. But we we automatically get into, you know, bad moods, and so everybody will have something that can give them a sign for when they get themselves in a problem drinking situation. And for me, it's tasting, and it's in particular of like, where on my palate, I taste something. So I would challenge anyone who wants to, you know, explore this for themselves, I would say analyze the moments that you've had, you know, you may have had too much and you did something that you shouldn't have, or you just went too far, I would say analyze, you know what you felt like going into that situation, and see if you can stop yourself from going in that situation again. And so that's just one thing that I do, I also try to like not have, you know, there's tasting, and then there's drinking, my tasting is like analytical, I keep it very, you know, smell it, analyze it, taste it, spit, you know, drinking. And this is, you know, where I can get myself into a little bit of like, you know, having more than two is if I'm watching justified if I'm watching something that I'm really into. And I'm just into that moment, or if I'm reading a book that I'm really into, and I just keep like, you know, pouring, you know, and then I'm suddenly I've got four, you know, so like, it's being mindful of that as well. It's like knowing when you want knowing when you need to stop. And always, always, always have a plan to get home. That's the most one of the most important parts do not get in the car if you've been drinking. And most importantly, the distilled spirits Council has a has a sheet for what is moderating moderation and drinking. And I really try to follow that. And you know, men can drink more than women. But there is there is a an amount and I think turns out to be something like 15 drinks a week for four men. Those are 44:37 fantastic. points. Fred, thanks for sharing. And I think I think to add on to that, right? You touched on a little bit in there. I think everyone's different. Right? So if you feel, you know, to some people to drinks, they'll be they'll be drunk, right? Everyone's body is different. So if you feel that you're drinking all the time, or getting drunk all the time, just because you're only having two, three drinks the night right? When you see other people having 910, 15, whatever, right? That doesn't mean you know, it's okay to justify it. So you'll know your own limits. And don't compare yourself against anyone else. Right? That's the best way of doing it. You know what's right for you? Right? And you know, what's going to be too much. And you're going to know, it's just right. And everyone finds that point sometime in life and just kind of be as friends and mindful of it. But don't don't compare yourself and say, Well, you know, I see everyone else on Facebook drinking. I don't know, eight doubles tonight, right? I only drink four. I'm okay force too much for you. It's too much for you if that that's what you got to keep in mind. Right? Everyone has their own personal limit. And you do have to, as Fred said, just being mindful of that. And that's one of the keys things to do too. 45:43 Did you find that limit when you're selecting a bottle or a barrel a pin hook this past week? Well, we will thankfully 45:50 told people about this first. So me. Yeah, so really quick. So me and Nick went down along with Ryan to select a bottle for break room and single barrel club from Pinnacle. They're looking to Castle on key. So they propose a crazy cool, but kind of crazy, this experience where we worked with their, you know, their master taster that they work with the castle on key to narrow down. They pulled a lot of 40 little over 40 barrels for us. And these are the barrels designated for the single barrel program. And so I'm just going through like three or four, we went through all of them, we drank all the Bourbons. So they did prove them down to 5060 proof, right? And it was a lot of smelling a lot of sensory stuff. Tons of sensory stuff, lots of spitting. So the amount of actual bourbon we drink at the end of the day, what would you say, right? We drink even like two ounces of bourbon. 46:33 If that if that. And yes, I was spitting, I was falling. It was only like two or three ounces in that plastic cup by the new day. And it was a 40% or 52. But yeah, that was like Fred said it was very analytical. Very, you know, we were thoughtful, we were very focused on what we're doing. Like we weren't there just to like, sloshing back. And our motive wasn't to go get slammer or whatever. But mean, I think you just have to know, like Fred talked about, I'm big in mindfulness awareness, like I have ADHD. And I know like, when my mind can kind of take over and send me places. And then when I've had too much, I just my body can tell me like, all right, you need to settle down for a few days, and you gotta listen to your body when you start to, like, ignore that. And you start to like, drink to fight off the the night before, you know, chasing the hair of the dog, you know, that's when I think you're like really going down a slippery slope. And I've had, I've had those days, you know, you go on a bachelor party, or you're a lake weekend or a golf weekend, and you're you're there to party for two or three days. And then like, All right, I'm done for like three or four days, you know, just to clear it up. And then when you can't recognize that I think that's when you definitely need to, to seek some help and find some because there's definitely some issues there. 47:51 Yeah, I don't know the answer. Certainly. But Fred, thank you for your your openness on that. I think that's, that will help a lot of people. Listen, running today and in the other comments about just knowing yourself and knowing when it's time to take a break. So I think that's I really appreciate those 48:10 personally. Alright, so that kind of sparked a topic and kind of went down a crazy little hope we hope we can come back out of this and raise spirits, I guess if you can a little bit. But this is really coming because there was an article on CNN this past week and talked about how investors are looking at alternatives to bars. And there's a maybe it's like a Brooklyn thing like I don't know, where there's these sober bars that are kind of coming up, right, the people are making these craft mock tales, and they still cost you 1012 bucks apiece. But do you see this is like a like a catching on thing? Or do you see this is a 48:55 just a fad 48:56 for so last year, last year, it tells you the cocktail the world, you know, most important largest, you know bar conference, they had a party, lamb grant through a party where there was no alcohol, like the opening party had no alcohol. So this is like a really a really real trend. And they're they're trying to chase 23 year olds don't drink. 49:22 So let's just go ahead, and we'll let Mary Ann's joined us. So we'll, we'll kind of wrap up this topic really quick. So Mary, and we're talking about sober bars if they are actually going to become a thing. So Fred, I'll let you finish up your thought and then will will lead on over to Mary and then 49:39 yeah, the the growth of of like the silver bars and this trend of like, just eliminate drinking. It falls in line with all these efforts to legalize alcohol advertising. And these fraudulent studies that are coming out from a publication called Lancet that is extrapolating minute to minute amounts of data and basically saying, you know, all alcohol causes all kinds of cancers. And so we're having, we're having this basically this frantic health scare. That is it, in my opinion, is fraudulent. And the industry cannot fight it. Like they're losing everywhere they turn. Because you know, there's a new study every week that tells you you're going to get cancer, if you drink alcohol. And the sad part is is every one of those damn studies almost they almost always get recanted. But the fact is that it gets on USA Today wants its air forever. 50:35 Sounds round up. And what I deal with on a day to day basis 50:40 doesn't cause cancer. 50:44 It causes it in California, but not exactly. 50:46 If you think about it, though, there's there's other studies that come out that says, oh, a glass of wine a day or glass of whiskey a day, whatever it is, and then you're going to live to 90, you know, these are and anybody that I Google's it, I think there was a TED talk or something like that, where somebody actually made a fake scientific research study and it got published in like PR news and like all or Newswire and all this kind of crazy stuff. So it was basically a study this be actually show like how false the sort of scientific studies are that that get really blown out of proportion. So it sounds like there's a there's a lobbyist group that's really pushing towards this for to make something like this a reality. 51:29 Yeah, for sure. 51:31 Anybody else have any other comments or thoughts on that before we change directions? 51:34 My only thought is that article that you sent us Kenny the the description of one of those drinks was so god awful that that should kill it in its crack. So I wrote it down and acidic beverage made from vinegar, fruit sugar, and club soda. I mean, that should kill the lemon right there. 51:53 probably use that. You could probably use that for round up. What 51:58 was it? Mix it up, right? 52:00 What's the cocktail mix made out of apple cider vinegar? It's um, where they do the fruit and the apple cider vinegar shrub. Yeah, I mean, it's basically a non alcoholic syrup, isn't it? I could be wrong. 52:10 Sure. 52:14 I'm not a bartender. 52:17 was the worst thing I've ever done in the kitchen. I can buy these from now on. 52:22 Definitely taste better than they smell. 52:25 Yes. Yes. Yeah. 52:28 I was like, I'll use vinegar on like, you know, reheating like pork butts and stuff like that. We don't we do. We smoked smoked barbecue, stuff like that, but haven't really done a whole lot in the cocktails. that's a that's a whole new that for me. That's a hard pass. So with that, let's go ahead and bring on our next guest. So you heard her already. She's been on the podcast before. I think it was like Episode 16. Like way, way back in the day. 52:52 When we we were not very good. We we still suck but I think we're 52:57 less sucky now. Marianne, welcome back to the show. 53:00 Thank you so much candy as a pleasure. 53:03 Yeah. So you know, we love to have you on I know, Fred. Fred kind of thinks of you like, like a little sister sometimes. You know, he feels like, 53:11 like you all went shopping together? 53:18 Yeah. You know, Sir Paul. 53:22 But we kind of want to have you on and kind of talk about, you know, what's new with you? You know, it's not I mean, I think you you made national headlines, right? I mean, it was everywhere the of the separation between you and castle and key. So So kind of talk a little bit about it, and sort of what's on the horizon for you, too. 53:41 Yeah, I, I am really proud of of everything that I've built. And we achieved it at Castle and key. But what I've learned about myself is that I really love making things and building things. And you know, kind of all my startup energy was used in in castle and key to get them where they are. And I'm ready to try some new things. I've been wanting to get into some different spirit categories. Not that I'm going to leave bourbon, and not not permanently anyway. But I want to get some experience in mezcal and rum and we'll see where where life goes from there. 54:20 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think for a lot of us, you know, we were we were all kind of shocked to see the news because we were you had been really the face of the brand for so long. I don't think there was a day that we didn't see on Instagram with you at the distillery or seeing the the gardens or something like that. So you know, definitely we wish them the best of luck and everything that they're doing, and you as well, but kind of kind of talk I know you kind of took a little bit of a break to I you went out west for a few days to kind of regroup. 54:49 Yeah, I knew it was going to be big news when when that press release went out. So I just went ahead and made the executive decision that being in a remote island in the Pacific Northwest. And my my aunt's treehouse, my dad's cousin would would be a good idea. So yeah, I took a few days off and spend some time in winter and getting ready to take a little bit more time off down in Florida right now. And I'll be heading back out west next month. So yeah, some some exploration and travels coming up just to regroup a little bit before I figure out what's next. 55:26 It's kind of talk, you know, I've been in a situation to where we're looking for for new gigs right away, and you kind of need that time away. But what was the response like from other companies or anything like that, where they was like, Oh, crap, she's on the market. We gotta grab it real quick. I mean, did you have any of those conversations pop up? 55:49 Yeah, I had lots of people reaching out to me through the website, you know, some folks just looking to pick my brain for consulting type work. others that were like our Yeah, we've got a brand or we're starting something. And we wanted to know if you were interested in being our master distiller, but I'm not really interested in just getting another job. The consulting part is really interesting to me, I think, you know, my, my expertise in developing products and helping to design processes is something that a lot of folks more so maybe outside of Kentucky could benefit from, you know, learning the authentic Kentucky way of making spirits. But yeah, I really just want to get back into the gears and challenge myself and maybe, you know, learn learn some new things. 56:43 Your opportunity like in other spirits, like as, I wouldn't say, bourbon stagnant for your like, you know, because it's kind of the same thing. Like, there's not much variance or variation you can kind of do with that like, like with mezcal or other spirits. Does that kind of get more creative with? 56:58 I am. I'm just totally convinced that we're not done innovating and bourbon yet, but it just seems like every new thing is kind of a thing, an iteration of something that's already been done. Yep. So I think there's, there's a whole new genre of innovation out there that nobody's tapped into yet. And what it is is inspiration from other spirits, you know, and I have yet to learn everything I need to actually execute that but I think there's there's lots of interesting spirits and lots of unique ways that they create flavor that we can bring back and even though you know, it's this certain set of regulations that make bourbon what it is there's there's there's more to play with. 57:47 Right? And it's not like the bourbon consumers are so open to new ideas, you know, 57:53 with a product offer friendly, so welcoming. 57:58 Sure, our I was like, that's been the bread and butter for a while. So it's, I mean, if you've been trained in that area, or is that something that you're just you're looking to explore 58:09 in what area Miss cows and 58:12 other things? 58:13 Yeah, not Not really. I mean, I worked for brown Forman, which is a global spirits company. It's not just whiskey. Although I did focus a lot on whiskey. I I spent a lot of time in Mexico and out in California making wine they sent me to Belgium to do a few local projects. I I made vodka for them. 58:41 Along with Fred just lost Fred 58:46 he didn't spit it out. 58:51 He was just being kind. 58:54 did say I did right after I did taste it. I did ask you straight I was like, What are you doing? Why do you Why do you drinking vodka? 59:02 Dude, 59:03 yeah, it's a shame that that was the first thing that you tasted that I've made from scratch. Yeah. 59:11 Music is there anything to drink up here? Like we're gonna go to the warehouse next but you got this clear stuff that but 59:21 now you seem to have a real passion for gin. And like, you know, we hung out you know the other day and you know, we were you know, having some a lot of different a lot of different gin cocktails. What's your What's your favorite style? adyen there's a lot out there. Geez, it like gin is a almost infinite world of ways that you can change the flavor. I think that's the thing that's so interesting about it is you can do almost anything. 59:50 my palate, you know, as a bourbon distiller kind of leans towards something that's more balanced. So a London dry. That's like super Juniper forward is not where I tend to gravitate. So like a botanical, more modern botanical style, but doing really unique things. Like I think that the castle in Cajun, well, nothing is super crazier off the wall. It's unique in the way that it's crafted. And that's not my favorite word ever, but just the thoughtfulness of the ingredients and how they're integrated together. 1:00:31 Yeah, absolutely. Since you were talking about consulting earlier, David Jennings of Robert when no one wanted to ask, because you had missed the earlier half of this conversation, if you wanted to start consulting on helping direct the the new urban secondary markets and it's now going under. 1:00:49 I don't know how I can help. 1:00:56 Secondary. Did you ever did you ever buy anything? You ever buy any old bottles on a secondary market? 1:01:03 No. I tried to barter for a couple but never actually got any bites on that. Give me a great VIP tour. 1:01:12 I remember I 1:01:14 remember like, like, this was a long time ago. You were was when you were with Woodford maybe 2013 2014 1:01:24 It was a long time ago. But you were you did bring up like some kind of you know interaction with you and with you and Chris for a bottle. Is that what you're talking about when you were trying to like have a An Evening with with Chris Morris for a bottle that ring a bell? or using one of those bourbon secondary markets? And and you were trying to get people to come to a Chris Morris event? 1:01:55 Is it was it the the old president's choice? 1:02:06 She's the one she she brought up. 1:02:10 Yeah, here remember that? No, this was actually a castle. You know, a lot of folks would have those old castle decanters. Like, like, I'd never seen one before. You know, 1:02:21 for however many hundreds of dollars. 1:02:26 I don't really want to give you money. But if you like to come out and take a tour, Hillary, we can probably work something out. 1:02:34 And everybody always wants money. Mary. 1:02:38 I understand. 1:02:40 So last question. Miriam. Before we we ask one more question, then we'll kind of round this out. So for you, I know you talked about wanting to do consulting but kind of picture dream job. So here, would you like to start at something smaller and help build that up? Kind of like a you know, Catholic? He was kind of big? Let's be honest. That's a pretty massive place. 1:03:01 Looking at perfect size, perfect size? Yeah, we definitely need 1:03:06 it or would you rather go to a large corporation? You know, if it would be the heaven hills, it would be the Maker's Mark of the world, whatever it is? Or would you just like to just keep doing the consulting and bouncing around and, you know, Mark night, he please put me putting you in some tough shoes to fill here and said, Marian, could be the next day pickrell with a question mark. 1:03:28 I what, I definitely think that his passing lifted a gap in the market. So as much opportunity is this comes from that I would be grateful for I've had lots of various brands reach out. I think, you know, I'm just gonna leave myself open to the universe and see what what happens. And I don't want to say for sure, you know, and I 1:03:56 will or won't, you know, build my own someday, I think then 1:04:03 I would love to be involved with with people who are passionate and want to make good stuff. And if they turn into large brands, that's cool. If they want to keep them small and boutique, that that's fine, too. 1:04:16 Sorry. And just to have it on the record, this means you're open to pursuit spirits 1:04:23 whatever you were saying earlier will make it happen. 1:04:30 Marianne, I'll say like, you know, 1:04:33 I I've talked about you know, many times often in defense of abuse, sadly, you know, when people bring up you know, the master distiller role and everything, and, and I just don't tell you, you know, you can do anything, you know, you're, you have, you have incredible you have incredible, you know, smarts for this business, you haven't you have an ability to market, you know, for marketing and everything as well. And that's rare. And, you know, when you came out and chose to take the title of master distiller, you became a hero for a lot of young women. And there were there were women in their 50s who looked up to you after that, and, and I know that you had a lot of, I'm sorry, there's there's a chat going on in our in our group. Our, our, we've been, we've been banned, you've been named, but you you can marry and you could do anything. So whatever. Whatever it is. You want to put your mind to you know, I hope it's I hope it's bourbon. I hope you do stay on bourbon. I think you have a talent here. 1:05:55 For God's sake, stay away from vodka don't 1:05:57 don't take your talents 1:05:58 to god yeah. 1:06:02 Word of word in your in your opening statement was flavor. Yeah, just remember that let that be the driver dreams. 1:06:10 And always that cordial Fred 1:06:18 should go with a flavored vodka is 1:06:22 you guys are horrible. 1:06:27 So that was a good way to sort of wrap this up. But I do have because we always end up having way more comp topics to talk about. And I kind of want to do this one real quickly. Also, to kind of trail on what Fred said. There was somebody that spammed our chat going on it was sexy, triple x asking to people to click on links for cheeseburgers and booze. 1:06:49 And it's like is Jordan Jordan Jordan put in here like maybe we should have her on next time? 1:06:55 seem cool. cheese burgers, like the link unfortunately. 1:07:03 I was so confused when that pop up because I wasn't following the chat. And I'm like what? Who's sexy? 1:07:11 Why am I not in the chat right now? 1:07:16 I was doing my best not to lose it. 1:07:19 So speaking of cheeseburgers and booze here this was a question that Fred had put out on Twitter this past week and would you drink a marijuana infused bourbon? Go ahead. What do you think 1:07:32 only if it had real weed in it? 1:07:34 Yeah cuz let's let's before there was a lot of back and forth before like 1:07:37 of like it just 1:07:38 they put THC in know, like, we're 1:07:41 putting like the real deal in here. Like we're not doing this whole like you know, hemp bullcrap. Whatever it is, like let's go let's go all in here. And also people are going there they're kind of pissed because they're like it's not bourbon then if it's infused like we get it Okay, like like we know it's new category people just want to they really got a harp on it. But I guess the question is, is reefer bourbon Are you in or out? 1:08:05 So if anyone's had sharp Bay Have you already had it? 1:08:10 is using hops the 1:08:16 man I don't know, man. Margot. He's dropped a little ganja up. 1:08:21 There might be a little bit more than hot. Yeah. 1:08:24 Yeah. If it gives the same effect. Yes. I'm all in. Thank you. 1:08:28 Please. Somebody said yes. Because I say yes. Yeah. You know, 1:08:34 I'll go the hybrid route. Okay, 1:08:36 since I haven't added there's a there's a bar in New York you asked for a dragon and he get

Peggy Noe Stevens is an encyclopedia of great information about many bourbon brands. You may not know it, but she's one of the biggest influencers behind many of the great distillery experiences while on the bourbon trail and outside of the state too. Peggy is a pioneer in driving diversity with her leadership behind the Bourbon Women organization and involvement with women-led panels. Peggy is an incredibly talented person that has shaped the industry from being in front of people leading them at bourbon tastings and crafting one of kind experiences behind the scenes. Show Partners: At Barrell Craft Spirits, every release is intentionally unique, and can’t be duplicated. Once it’s gone, it’s gone. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order with code "Pursuit" at RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Use code "BOB2019" for discounted tickets to Bourbon on the Banks in Frankfort, KY on August 24th. Visit BourbonontheBanks.org. (Offer good through 6/30.) Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Wikipedia. What is an experiential expert? Who have you consulted for these experiences? What value do you bring to these experiences? What was it like working at Woodford Reserve? How do you elevate the experience? How do balance the history with modern day innovation? Explain the difference between someone coming up the ranks in the bourbon industry vs. someone just taking it. What was it like when you were named the first female master taster? Do you feel like the media is better today that back then? What about diversity in the whiskey industry? Was Lincoln Henderson your Mr. Miyagi? What are you doing today with this master taster role? Let's discuss Bourbon Women. What was your inspiration for Bourbon Women? Tell us about the growth of Bourbon Women. How do you market the organization? What type of members do you have? What are visitors looking for in a distillery experience? How do you deal with a difficult person in the hospitality industry? How did you help pioneer the Bourbon Trail? 0:00 Did you actually consult him and say you should wear an ascot? 0:03 No, no, he he came. I want to make clear to all the audience that the Ascot was his idea. Are you suggesting I shouldn't 0:15 move forward with it? 0:27 This is Episode 204. of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your hosts Kenny Coleman and per usual we have to go through a little bit of news on June 22. peerless distilling is releasing their four year bourbon. If you caught the Live podcast with Corky Taylor then you may have heard about it, if not no worries as it will be released at a later date. We are very excited for Corky Caleb and the entire peerless team for having the will to hold back sales until this product reached four years old. When we get a chance to try it. We're going to let you know what we think to Buffalo Trace to Hillary is now releasing their next installment in the old charter oak series called French oak. The old charter oak collection is designed to explore honor and celebrate the role of oak in making great whiskey. The oak tree is used in this brand vary from country of origin species, US date and even age there's century barrels that are being used from Oak trees that are 100 203 hundred years old. For this newest release Buffalo Trace contained a small number of barrels from France in 2007 and filled them with Nashville number one. This is the same Nashville used for standard Buffalo Trace Eagle were amongst a few others. The old charter oak is now been bottled and will be available for retail in late June. Last week, we ventured out to Barton for another 1792 foolproof selection, that they started out a little bit different than most because it was raining and there were storms in the area. That meant we had to do our barrel selection inside at the tasting bar at the gift shop instead of the red house because they don't allow people there during the chances of lightning. We made the best of it. And we had six barrels to choose from we narrowed it down to three. And that's I guess fortunate that we ran out of samples there with inside the gift shop. But wouldn't you know the skies parted and we got the sample our barrels inside the house to come away with a winner. After selecting it, we found out that it was barreled on to 29 which of course was a leap year. We were also joined by Father Matt, a fellow Patreon supporter and Catholic priests from northern Ohio, who blessed our bourbon for us to mean how often Can you say something like that happens, it was truly a memorable experience. If you want to join us on barrel pics, go ahead and sign up and be a part of our Patreon community@patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit. If you follow us on social media, you would have seen Ryan and I at will at this past Saturday. We've got big news to share. So you're gonna have to wait to hear more about that one. Let's just say we through 11 barrels and came away with two. That's enough for the teasers for now. For today's show, we have to just talk about Peggy because we love Peggy Noe Stevens, she's an encyclopedia of great information about mini bourbon brands. She was featured back on episode 198 talking about would influence along with bourbon and food pairings with the state as the rave. But this time we get to hear her complete story. You may not know it, but she's one of the biggest influencers behind many of the great distillery experiences that you get to see on the bourbon trail as well as outside of the state to Peggy is a major player when it comes to diversity in the bourbon world. She's a pioneer because she played a big role behind the bourbon women organization that we've also featured on the show previously. Peggy is an incredibly talented person that has shaped the industry from being in front of people leading them bourbon tastings to crafting those one of a kind experiences behind the scenes. Now with that, let's hear from our good friend Joe over a barrel burger. And then you've got Fred Minnick with above the char. 4:04 Hi, this is Joe Beatrice from Bell craft spirits. Every release is intentionally unique and can't be duplicated. Once it's gone. It's gone. Find out more at barrel bourbon calm. 4:16 I'm Fred Minnick. And this is above the char. When I was a little boy. One day, a man came to our house. He wore a suit, nice leather shoes, had a suitcase. He took my father to the table and pulled out a suitcase and dropped five nice leather bound books. He flipped him open. The pages were silky smooth to the touch. And he pointed at me. And he said, Sir, your son can learn the world through Britannica encyclopedia is my father very interested in my education. But the encyclopedias I just sat there for pretty much my entire life. I don't think I ever really looked Adam. Well, I might have pulled him out for a report here and there. But the encyclopedia man always struck me as like one of the greatest salesman in the world. And today, the encyclopedia is gone. So where do we go for information these days? Well, obviously, it's the internet. But there's one source in particular that seems to drive the conversation with most people. And that's Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a site that I'm actually particularly fond of, because it crowd sources information. And a lot of the information is wrong to include people winning awards, you see a lot of political efforts there to kind of try to change people's Wikipedia pages. I have a Wikipedia page and you know, people go in there and tinker with that all the time. That's great. That is what it is. So side note, I was the most important Ascot where once upon a time someone else took that spot. But the fact is, is Wikipedia is where we go for information today as a society. Now go on there and look for Jimmy Russell, Jim Rutledge, Elmer T. Lee, Jeff Barnett, you name them any kind of prominent person and the American whiskey scene, and you won't find him. I don't know if it's the brand's fault for not trying to make sure that their iconic people are on Wikipedia pages. Or if it's simply that American whiskey hasn't really crossed over into the pop culture of the internet yet. But I think we really should change that. So if you have the abilities, get on Wikipedia today and add a master distiller go add somebody who's important to American whiskey. Because for a lot of people, if you're not on Wikipedia, you don't exist. And that's this week's above the char, hey, this idea came to me from a follower on Twitter, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter or Instagram. That's at Fred Minnick again. That's at Fred Minnick. Until next week, cheers. 7:05 Welcome back to the episode of bourbon pursuit, the official podcast of bourbon, Kinney and Fred recording on site at one of our guests place. So we're actually honored to be on site again together doing this. But today that I had the opportunity of meeting Peggy few times, probably probably probably a few years ago was the first time and then the last time which I don't know if that's going to go out and recording depending on how this release counter is going to go but had the opportunity to record her at the higher proof Expo doing some stuff with bourbon and food and chocolate pairings and tasting and stuff like that. And so that was kind of like my really first time really meeting her and kind of knowing some of the the depth of knowledge that that she really had to offer. But, Fred, you've got even a more personal connection to our guest today. 7:54 Yeah. So Peggy, and I go way back and if it wasn't for her, hi would never have written the book whiskey women. And we've become friends. I would say, you know, I don't have a sister. She's the closest thing to a sister I have. And she's the godmother to my son Julian. So, so we are very close. And you know, when we talk about when we talk about bourbon coming back, you know, this woman has done as much for bourbon as anybody. She basically was a founder of the Kentucky bourbon trail. I mean, it was essentially her idea. She It was her idea to create the launch pad of the Kentucky bourbon trail at the Frazier museum. And she founded a little organization called bourbon women. And oh, by the way, she was the first female master taster. worked with a lot of iconic brands and like Woodford Reserve so she's very influential in this world of bourbon. And to me personally, just one of my best friends. Well, I think 8:56 I think we put up on a pedestal and padded that ego enough, we should probably go go ahead and introduce her. So today on the show, we have Peggy know Stevens, Peggy is the master taster and also an experiential expert. So Peggy, welcome to the show. 9:09 Thank you. I was thrilled to be on this, especially with you two guests 9:13 are you know, you you made it? All right, we're 100 and whatever episodes and we finally got you, and you 9:17 waited this long for me know if that's a compliment. I don't know why. 9:22 There was all these rejections because you know, Kenny and Ryan were just, they weren't, they weren't ready for you know, right 9:28 away. Yeah, we had to me to build our build our confidence is kind 9:32 of how it works. Actually, it's very true. They're, they're very sensitive to our various 9:38 crush your ego pretty quickly, there you 9:40 go. They'll look at the text messages. And you'll know exactly like how bad we can, we can really like hate ourselves. But anyway, I want you to first talk about what is an experiential expert, I have something I'm just going to guess that it has to do something with these these tasting pairing things that you do as well as a little bit. 9:57 I mean, that's part of it. Experience ensure, and a lot of people don't understand that word fully. But it's about the experience, someone has been interactive, hands on, you know, engaging a consumer touching them emotionally. It's all of those things. So for years and years in the beverage industry and managed visitor centers, and distillery operations for the consumer. And so through all of that, I learned how to really engage the consumer, whether it be on a tour or teaching or educating or food pairing. And so when I started my company 11 years ago, I decided that that's where I would put a big part of my focus. So I work with kind of the big boy brands and I work with craft distilleries all over creating experiences for consumers on a tour path. 10:47 And so give us an idea of who you've you've actually consulted for so when somebody goes in here, they're going to be like, Oh, I know that Peggy's had something to do with this place. Right? 10:56 Well, recent, most recent, I guess is the Luxe row distillery in Bardstown if you visited there worked with the Luxe family. And the Gosh, I guess that project was almost a two year project very enjoyable. And then the American steel house for Jim Beam. That was my very first project actually, when I started my company, and then that led to the urban still house, which we helped design, and also their Global Innovation Center, which we helped design the interior and what a distributor or retail would experience, you know if they went on tour there, so that was one of them. peerless distillery comes to mind which I have a little peerless today for you. after this is over, or during whatever you want. 11:40 A quarter we'll see what happens 11:42 a little bit on the victors project. And then of course, I go beyond the borders of Kentucky. So a couple Tennessee distilleries like old forge distillery, Thunderbird distillery, and have one up and coming, then it's going to be announced, I think very shortly, 11:58 will awesome. So I guess, one of those things that if somebody is trying to open up a visitor experience, you know, it kind of seems that there's, there's almost like a formula nowadays, you know, you have a little bit of history, get a little bit of retail, but what do you kind of bring to this table that they couldn't just go and say, well, I'll just go visit four or five places write down what I can find, and then we'll go build it ourselves, we need you to justify your job. 12:26 Well, I mean, technically, it is a process because I think that you have to design a visitor center and distilleries in phases, you know, from what is your story? You know, that's where I try to keep people grounded. Where's your authenticity? What do you want the consumer to care about? I call that the takeaway. You know, if you've ever gone on vacation, and you've had a great time, and you get back in your car, your airplane and you're headed home, you say, Wow, that was just a great experience, because you always have a takeaway. And that's what I try to get all of the visitor centers that I work with, to put their anchor in the ground and say, This is what we stand for. This Is Our Story, whether it be history related, or innovation related, or family related, you know, it just has to be true to them. You know, from that, we start to what I call three dimensional eyes it how do you bring that story to life, whether it be through exhibits, whether it be through the production process, or the engagement of the tour guide. And then once we design the exhibits, we work with architects and construction companies to help fabricate it. And after that point, you know, usually we're writing the script. So we'll help with script writing the product profile how we deliver a tasting 13:40 now, when you say script writing, this is like what when you say exactly like your word as much as I can. 13:46 That's right. We we are pretty granular in our business that we even teach the tour guides, how to tell a story, how to train and customer service, how to deal with difficult people on a tour. So 13:58 how to deal with Kenny, you're saying, Yeah, he one 14:00 that actually we teach how to throw out loud now? Yeah, but it's really no more. It's really soup to nuts. And that's what makes a great experience when you thread all of the things together that I just mentioned, because that's when you can say I had a surround sound experience. And so that's what we try to capture with consumer 14:19 DNA. When you had said like, you know, anybody can just open like a visitor center. To me, that's a little bit like, I've had a lot of people come to me and say, Oh, I can write a book on write a book. You know, that sort of thing. A lot of people think they can write a book. But then when they get down to writing a book, you know, they realize they can't do it at visitor centers are actually very complicated AR and and the United Kingdom, go around to the scotch whiskey whiskey distilleries, and you'll see how, how far ahead American whiskey visitor centers are from from those facilities. And actually, you kind of cut your teeth on probably what is considered one of the hallmarks of the bourbon trail and Woodford Reserve What was I did, what were those days like? 15:03 Well, I'll tell you I look back at my Woodford days is probably one of the best times of my life. 15:09 We're talking mid 90s. 15:10 Yeah, mid 90s and 1994 to be exact, and it was a two year renovation, give or take a few months. It was the brainchild truly allows Lee Brown, who I think was probably one of the most intelligent men that I've ever worked for, and worked with. And it was when the bourbon industry was having its resurgence that you know, we were seeing a difference in how we market and the consumer going back to kind of some of the retro cocktails. So it was perfect timing to create this vision for the distillery and so the beauty of it is the team that I worked with people like Kevin Curtis, Dave Sherrick, you probably heard those names. They were right alongside with me on the production level. And we were almost like a small entrepreneurial spirit ticket that Woodford Reserve to where it is the first year we opened. We were so thrilled we had 9000 people and we thought tremendous. And now it's well over probably 150,000 16:10 like in probably two weeks now. 16:12 That's right. But I was really fortunate. Because brown Forman gave me a really great pedigree. I was able to travel around with Woodford Reserve and see other experiences you just meant mentioned the scotch whiskey trail. I went to Ireland, Mexico, one of my fondest memories and one of the best still today for me, as far as an experience goes as a visitor centers choir vo literally we literally went out in the field with a machete and they taught you how to hack with the machete the A gob a plant in your in the dirt and it's hot and sweaty and gritty. That's an experience. You know. So those are some of the the small things that we learned, you know, to try to create Woodford and then I went on eventually to manage the jack daniels visitor experience and all the brand destinations, 17:03 I got an idea for you. So tell me you can bring it to bourbon now. Now you can say okay, we got to go out to the cornfield, you got to go get six Huff's of corn and you got to come back and you've got to get all the kernels off, and I'm going to give you a pest immortal and you gotta get what happened. Yeah, you gotta chop all these up, we're going to make your bourbon in one day. And that's 17:19 experience. That's it. I mean, that's experiential. Because see, I think the consumer these days are so well educated. They want to be entertained, they're dying to be entertained. And so all they want to do is participate with you. And I think that when the industry realizes that and they allow them to play a little bit at the distillery, it's much more memorable, 17:41 too much free labor to its its tracks, 17:43 it will put all the consumers on the bottling line. 17:46 Oddly enough, they'd be like, I'd love to exactly. But another question that kind of goes, I do want to ask you one more while we're on this topic, because you had talked about scripts earlier? Do you still? Are you trying to find people that are like, let's get away from the whole? bourbon 51% corn? Like, is this the same thing? You kind of hear repetitive over and over again? Now? Do you come through and say like, it's just part of like what it is you have to cater to the everyday person that might not know this? Or do you say like, well, maybe we can create an elevated experience that we can slide that in there. But let's not focus on like the basics for a lot of these people? 18:19 Well, actually, it's a little of all of that, I believe in tears of tours. And in other words, there's something for everyone. There's kind of your bourbon one on one tour, where you do learn some of the production methods, but then give the tourists an opportunity to go to that next level, maybe more of an intermediate tour where they dig a little deeper in the production process and the history and heritage. And then for the advanced lover, and true bourbon enthusiasts, you might have private classes or cocktail classes or so I really believe in those tears. It's just a matter of convincing, you know, the distillery that one size doesn't fit all, you know, that you really have to offer because our consumers today, I think it's more demanding than ever, don't you, Fred? I 19:03 do. And they also like to call things out more so than ever, and I certainly more avenues for them to do that. And you got Yelp, you know, you've got Google reviews, and then you certainly have the podcasts and the bloggers and that's right. And one of the things that typically comes up from these, some of these smaller groups that come out, they kind of create, they create a story, and then they talk about it on on their tour. Let's take Boone County, for example. They They told 19:30 us one of my clients actually, 19:31 yeah, that's right. I knew that and they use that heritage. And you know, some people, they're just like, just talk about the whiskey, we don't care about the heritage, we don't feel like it's, you know, genuine to buy this brand or anything. So do you do you ever? How do you balance that, that effort to, you know, to bring out like a cool story. And, you know, staying with, you know, the contemporary desire to not create false back stories. 20:01 I agree. And and I think it's what we all do or try to do is we have to respect our history, because even though it might not have been history of the whiskey, it was history of their culture, and their surrounding area. And that's what Boone was, you know, they talk about their culture of their backyard. And then they tied in, you know, to the whiskey, and so, respecting the history, but then also have any appreciation for the modern day and innovation. You know, where are we going today? So I think it's what I call a balance, kind of a juxtaposition between between past and present. And that's what you have to bring together. 20:37 Okay, we see a lot of these brands that, you know, talk about, like my grand Pappy carried the yeast back on this toes from the Atlantic. And that's not balanced. You know, that's, that's, that's too far. And so like, if you're, if you're in the boardrooms, and you're saying, guys, you can't do that, then God bless you. That's right. You know, because we, we've gotten tired of that over the years, and we still see it, but it's not as prevalent as it was, I'd say 10 years ago. 21:04 And I think because of all the craft distilleries, you know that I work with and for, I try so hard to say it's okay, if you're sourcing whiskey, just say so, you know, tell them where you're getting it, why you chose the barrel stock that you did, how long it's going to be before your product comes out. Because I think authenticity is really important. And that's another reason why I think the tourists don't want to go to distillery after distillery and say, 51% corn, because everybody's going to say the same thing. And it's just dinner in a movie. 21:37 Let's jump on that authenticity thing for sure. Get some of that. Some just hit me, Kenny. You know, we're in this. We're in this day and age where anybody can come in and say they're an expert, a bourbon. You actually became a master taster at Brown Forman. Explain to us what the difference between someone coming up the ranks in the industry and earning that title and and then someone just taking it? 22:07 Sure. Well, I think that in our industry, what so many people don't understand is that we didn't have a formal definition of for example, if you wanted to be a CMO, yea, then you do all the credentials associated with that you take all the tests and you become a summer. Yeah. You know, in our industry, it's kind of truly up to each and every distillery to decide titles of vocabulary credentials, and master distiller is very different than master taster. Master taster is very different than master blender. But each distillery is going to set the guidelines and training, you know, to advance an employee to become in that position. So again, I think I was in the right place at the right time. Lincoln Henderson was the master distiller at Woodford at the time. And I believe it was about 2001, where the general manager of Woodford Lincoln, they thought I had a really good palate, I kind of have a bit of a culinary background. So I think in food terms, and I think that helps so much and identifying and descriptive whiskey. So I had written the tour understood production, I have a bit of a science mind. So they asked me if I would formally trained with him to become a master taster at the time and my naivete. I think I didn't realize that there were no women master tasters in the industry, if you can believe it. So of course I was eager, you know, to learn love doing tastings really respected Lincoln, in his knowledge and years of experience. So we would do you know, sensory training, we would you know, drill barrels and, you know, pulled from it, and he would teach me the different aspects of that, I had to do quite a quite a few things in the production area. And it's kind of like the whiskey, you know, you're not ready till the master distiller says you're ready. And after a certain period of time, that's when they gave me my certificate. You know, it was putting the newspaper and that's when I first found out when it hit the newspaper, it hit the AP. Oh, wow. And went across. And it is big news, that a woman has become a master taster. In a male predominant, you know, predominant world. And the that's when it hit me that this was really something more special than I ever dreamed than ever thought. And I'm happy to say now there's many master tasters, Master distillers master blenders that are female, I just happened to be, I think, in the right place at the right time that that happened. 24:37 Share with us the 24:40 when that news broke the DJ who called you? 24:45 Well, when I mentioned AP, right, hit the AP, so 120 newspapers it hit. And of course, there was so much interest from radio stations, TV stations. And it was something I wasn't, I don't think I was quite mentally ready for in the fact that there was a particular radio station kind of a shock jock that wanted me to come and do a series or not a series but an interview rather. And they were kind of getting a kick out of the whole piece of the newspaper article that said, she doesn't swallow. You know, she swirls and spits. And they kind of wanted to play on that a little bit. And I remember that, that's when it hit me that I was going to be different. I was not going to go along, just get go along to get along. And I said no to the interview. Because I didn't think that that was going to ever be my persona. And that's not what I wanted to be known for. I wasn't going to joke along with it. I wanted women to be taken seriously. And in a way like men would be, you know, and I don't think there'd be too many radio stations that would ask a man to do that. So I said no to the interview. And, you know, it wasn't very favorably received. But so Obama stood by my values on that. 26:06 Do you think we're better today than we were? From a media perspective? 26:12 I think not really, from a media perspective you ask? So I don't think so. But I guess I want to expand that not just to whiskey. I think on a media level, there are plenty of reality TV shows that, you know, try to get the worst of you the angle to make you not look great. I think there are plenty, you know, of Facebook video, you know, you see this all the time in social media that someone's captured at a certain moment, YouTube video, all of those things. And so No, I don't think media is better about it. But it goes beyond whiskey. 26:54 Yeah. What about the whiskey industry? Is it obviously we've seen growth of diversity. But you still, I still get the sense from from from women, that it's not where they want it to be. In terms of the diversity, 27:12 right, I think we are on a great trajectory right now, I think there's never been a better time for women to be in our industry. The amount of executives and vice presidents CMOS presidents of the different distillery or spirits companies, it's really enlightening, and I'm so glad to see it. So there I think putting women in better positions has certainly improved. Look at the production side of things, we have more master distillers that are women. All of that's wonderful. My question, I think, to the industry is really, once you're out in the field, and when I say out in the field, as far as sales representatives go that are female, you know, marketing representatives who do kind of the day to day job of beating the streets and going to bars and restaurants and it's more of how are they treated these days? You know, that's that's the question mark for me. But I know, you know, internally, it has definitely improved as far as positions go. 28:15 Yeah, I can kind of see that. I can kind of see what you're saying. Because you're still going in to even probably the more male dominated culture of liquor store owners and retailers and bars and stuff that yeah, these people have to go and they have to sell their product. I have to probably put up with some shit every once in a while to I'm sure that's probably not far from the case of what you're what you're what you're hinting at here. You know, one thing I kind of rewind a little bit about that you had talked about going up and becoming the master taster with inside of just Woodford or brown Forman in general what was 28:48 Woodford Reserve decision with Woodford Reserve specifically, 28:51 kind of talk about what those that individual process means are like how was how was Wes? Like, your your Miyagi, if you will? How does he mean like in Lincoln? You mean like it? Oh, sorry. Sorry. How was Lincoln? I'm sorry, I apologize. How was Lincoln kind of like your Miyagi here and your Daniel son, if you will. So the wax on wax off sort of scenario, 29:10 he got so caught up on that scenario, that Miyagi? I know, I forgot. 29:16 It was like, it's like from The Karate Kid, you know, you gotta have you know, and you're maybe maybe a Yoda, if you will. Yeah. 29:24 Well, again, Lincoln to me was was so refreshing every time he came to Woodford Reserve because he wanted to be as much a part of it as anybody who worked there. And he was the master distiller, of course, but you know, had to go back and forth to Louisville, he traveled around the world, you know, worked a lot in Japan, etc. And every time he came in, we would have great conversation, he was a foodie. So we always had that culinary tag that we appreciate a good food, good whiskey. And I have to say he was so well liked by the tour guides, and in the management, because he always had just as calm demeanor. And the reason why I tell you all that is because I think that really helped me when I was learning because he took the time to explain things, the very first time that we met formally to train, this was my first lesson, he had a box of toothpicks, and a glass of water. And then he had all these empty glasses, and I thought, oh, we're just going to taste a lot. And he, as he was talking, he was breaking up the toothpicks and putting them in water. And it's the most bizarre thing I'd ever seen. And I just didn't understand it. And he goes, he goes, I'm gonna let this sit for a minute, okay. And I said, Sure, you know, go ahead, no problem. And then he came back to it about, you know, 10 minutes later, and he goes, smell this playing glass of water. I noticed it. And then he goes, nose, nose, the one with the the toothpicks in it, and I noticed and he goes, do you see the difference would can make? And it was just this? Was he trying to mess with 30:51 me as he means? Well, 30:52 I mean, it was just, it was just his way of teaching and Little things like holding a Glencairn glass, you know, in the small disk that goes on top to keep the aroma, and he would teach me how to move it back and forth, so that I could look, you know, like an expert, you know, tasting it and turn it off. And then putting it back on very quickly 31:14 reminds me of like somebody at the poker table, they're just roll the chip in their in their hands or something. But 31:18 but exactly, that's exactly where the basic so I guess what I'm saying is, I really honored the fact that he brought me to the basics. And then little by little, you know, we advanced her way into the distillery where I was drilling barrels and pulling samples and tasting. And so it was it was really a progression, I guess, is the best way to answer that question. And, again, it wasn't ready till he said, she's ready to conduct the tastings and send around and do tastings. 31:46 What are you still doing today? In regards of a master taster role? Are you actually helping with other distilleries in this sort of thing like trying to dial it in of what they should be releasing or what their barrel should be at? 31:57 I absolutely do several different levels for some spirits judge for the American distilling Institute. So every year, I go and taste product, you know, from craft distillers and rate it and sometimes identify if it's, you know, has been in the barrel too long or still was dirty, or the grains were mold, you know, so we have to give a lot of feedback. And that's kind of tricky. 32:20 That is, that is tricky. I gotta say that that job is that particular competition and that style of competition. God bless you don't do that running. 32:32 But I also think before we get too far from there, I also want you to kind of explain when you just said, How can you tell if something if the if there's something moldy in the still like, how can you How can you get that from the distillate, or I think everybody knows that it hasn't been in the barrel long enough, 32:48 it's a taste. For example, if this still isn't clean, you know, really clean, I can taste kind of wet corn husk that tastes kind of moldy. To me, there's a rubbery taste, you know, and that's, that means something else. So it's all in what you have memorized in your sensory, you know, as a good or not so great taste. And that helps guide me, any anybody who is interested in knowing how to taste, I try to break it down and say it's really pretty easy. It's about food memory, if you know food flavors, you know, like what burnt tastes like? Or what real great savory, juicy steak tastes like, you know, you can equate food flavors to whiskey tasting. And so the American distilling Institute, which we have tons of fun, you know, we have about 70 judges, I think now that come. So that's one area and then for my clients, I do tasting profile. So if it's a new product, I will actually dissect the flavors and come up with the vocabulary to describe it. And then teach the tour guides, you know how to deliver tasting. So that's a job that I do. And then of course, doing food programs, food and bourbon programs, food and spirits programs. food pairings are kind of my specialty. And that's probably what I enjoy the most. When I'm doing tastings. 34:15 Well, there's one other thing that she applies for tastings. Joe went out, tell me she writes for bourbon plus, yeah, well, 34:21 how can I possibly get 34:23 she does tasting notes for the magazine? Yes, 34:26 I do tasting notes for the magazine and do ratings at times when I'm asked but I really have enjoyed that. Fred's taken a very different way of approaching descriptions of food pairings and bourbon pairings. And so I've, I have really latched on to that, because that's, that's my joy. That's what I really enjoy is describing flavors and whiskey. 34:49 So talk about a typical thing that when you are trying to do a food and a whiskey pairing, or food and bourbon pairing, I mean, is it like, okay, on your left, we've got shrimp and grits next goes well with bullet or we've got this and that, but kind of kind of just walk through what's around on a plate here and how you would share? 35:06 Well, the first thing that I tried to have people do is just dissect the whiskey flavors in general. Because if you don't know what you're dealing with, there's no way you could possibly decide on what food that it's going to go with. And then I created something a long time ago called balance, counterbalance, and explosion. And the balance side is simply when you take the whiskey and you taste a particular flavor of the whiskey that's, you know, pretty predominant. And then you match that flavor. Let's say it's Apple, you match that flavor to the food and so it let's say it's Apple, you know, so a slice of Apple, you taste apple in the bourbon. So it's a balance nothing's overshadowing anything. Then counterbalance is when you take a food flavor or descriptor from the whiskey and you try to do something completely opposite. Very similar to if you were drinking a Riesling wine and eating occasion pecan. You know the reasoning is so sugary sweet that it takes over the spice of the Cajun pecan kind of dousing it. You can do the same with bourbon, with really heavy caramel notes and vanilla notes. I could take an Asian dish and have my bourbon with Asian food because it's actually going to that caramels going to wrap around that spice and it's lovely. And then a explosion is when I want to really do surround sound tasting and I might take a great for example, you know I've got a bottle of peerless here I'm I take a great chocolate note out of peerless rye, and then I'll have a really chocolatey, you know, truffle or majestic to go with it because it's almost like too much of a good thing. You know, you're trying to create a flavor that you can't even believe it's taken over your mouth. And that's explosion. 36:54 Fred, did you know that you can pair bourbon with egg rolls? Because apparently you can. 36:59 The only thing I have now I've been able to successfully pair bourbon with has been like fishier styles of sushi. Like I compare bourbon really well with salmon but like, like, let's say a spicy tuna roll. I've not been successful and fine. I've been able to pair a scotch with that, but not a spicy 37:19 scotch is so easy with seafood because it 37:21 really is. Yeah, but there's not. When it when it comes to some of those more flashy or tunas. When you hear those spices, they're hard to pair to. 37:33 I mean, most of our listeners, they would say well of course you want to go at Jefferson's ocean and because apparently it's supposed to bring in this briny, salty taste to it what would what would be your response to that? 37:43 Me? Well, I or or Yeah, I think Jefferson's ocean is 37:50 sometimes it has brightness to it. Sometimes it doesn't. I don't always get it. 37:54 Well, I remember I was very skeptical. The first time I heard you know valve and putting it on the sea, all of this and I thought you know what, I'm going to taste this thing. And surprisingly, salt is not a descriptor that I use ever when I'm doing whiskey profiles. And I will tell you, I really do get a little bit of that sea salt taste 38:16 as I did in the later batches, I it's been inconsistent for me. 38:20 So what I try to do if I'm if I'm pairing with Jefferson's is not to overdo the salt. You know not to have a real savory dish to pair it with because I think it can overtake 38:34 so go ahead. I you know, we're I don't want to get too caught up in all the tasting side of things because we really want to talk about you know, bourbon women. 38:49 Do you love bourbon? How about festivals? Of course you do. So join bourbon pursuit in Frankfort, Kentucky on August 24. For bourbon on the banks. It's the country wells premier bourbon tasting and awards festival. You will get to taste from over 60 different bourbon spirits, wine and beer vendors plus 20 food vendors all happening with live music. Learn more about bourbon from the master distillers themselves that you've heard on the show and enjoy food from award winning chefs. 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And, you know, your company was a consulting company you've you've been a you know, personal consultant. Yes. image consultant. By the way, She's the reason why I have a beard. 41:14 I told you I've been trying I've been trying with 41:16 Fred This is this when he was baby face when he had the goatee and you're like, you gotta you gotta grow it out some more. Or is it actually 41:21 it was it started with the goatee was the other It started with a goatee. And I said fill it in and fill it in. But yeah, that's one of I am an Image and Etiquette expert. And, and believe it or not, that's come in very handy because I work in the hospitality industry. And so it's about the look and feel of your employees and professionals. So Fred's 41:43 con wrote a book on it. 41:45 I wrote a book called professional presence. And I teach on that still, you know, too many organizations and corporations, but 41:53 when she's with bourbon groups, she just throws it all out the window. 41:56 Do I Do I dress down? No, I'm just so last thing is I 42:03 usually wear a coat and tie to see me today. 42:05 I did not Yeah, but I also usually wouldn't know which one of the nine spoons I'm supposed to use that are in front of me sometimes at a nice dinner as well. 42:12 Well, and you know, it's funny that you say that because that's where the bourbon industry is just been great because it's so approachable. And even though I'm an etiquette expert, and I had a woman at bourbon and beyond from California came up and she goes, Peggy, you're the Emily post of bourbon. And I kind of got a kick out of that, because I wasn't trying to take that she was no, you're really teaching us. You know how to do things and use things. But one thing lesson I've learned from all these master distillers who I really admire is to make it approachable, you know, teaching people what they can do and how to enjoy it, but not making it intimidating for them to enjoy it. Because we don't want to make it untouchable. 42:51 Scott's dictating 42:54 to listen, and he says his way or the highway. 42:57 So the inspiration for bourbon women? Yes. What was that? 43:01 Well, I think bourbon women, for me personally, my inspiration was when I was still working for Woodford, because I would travel around the world. And when I would conduct tastings, nine times out of 10 predominantly male, which was fine that there'd always be like a little trickle of women in the back. And they would only come up to me, after the tasting was over to ask questions, you know, or ask what I do for a living or, or expand a little bit more on my career. And I always found that very odd that they wouldn't raise their hand when a lot of the men would be flooding me with questions, you know, during the seminar. And then I attended a women's weekend and Kiawah Island. And again, this is back in the 90s, early 2000s. And it was a women's weekend not about whiskey. It was just a women's weekend where the hotel was doing different things, excursions etc, shopping, the normal thing, and they asked me to come in and do a bourbon tasting. And when I got there said how many women It was probably 100 women in this room. How many women enjoy bourbon? No one raised their hand. Nobody, no. Time is over. But then I said, Well, how many of you drink margaritas? They all raise their hand? Oh, yeah. Now we're talking Now we're talking. And I said, I'm going to teach you something now that I think you'll appreciate. You know, when you have a shot of tequila in front of you, you're probably less likely to drink that than you are to have a margarita. I said so we're going to start slow and I'm gonna teach you how to taste bourbon, and what cocktails you can put in bourbon. And then maybe you'll decide, you know, the Bourbons okay for you. And by the end of the night we were singing New York, New York and doing the cancan. Yeah. Yeah, it was it was wildly successful. The women had son, they loved it. And so I think that was part of my inspiration. Also, another event that I did, when I was at Woodford, I have a picture of it actually with Lincoln. We did a women's group, cigar and shopping night. And women came from all over Kentucky to attended Lincoln gave the tasting. We had a cigar aficionado there, you know, showing you how to smoke a cigar and then we shopped and it was wildly successful. So in marketing, because I was in marketing for so long, we'd be waving the flag saying there are all kinds of women out there that want to be part of our franchise, but marketing dollars or marketing dollars, and the demographic skewed always to the mail. And it was just really never took off. So when I started my own company, and there's a long way of explaining it, but when I started my own company, I said I'm gonna start my own damn thing. And so with bourbon women, I did focus groups across Kentucky, and I grabbed some really great friends and then in over Manhattan's, we said, you know, let's, let's test the market. Let's test these women. Let's see if they'd be enthusiastic about creating a platform a conversation. So we did the focus groups, I got all my research together, and I went to go see the one man in this industry who would tell me the truth. And that was Bill Samuels, and I sat down with Bill Samuels, and I said, Bill, I have an idea. And he was always great about listening to me, he truly was, even though I worked for Woodford for years, I was in my own company. He didn't have time, you know, to talk to people like me. But I sat and I showed him all the things that we did with focus groups, and he was like, You know what, I think you've got something here. He was the one I used the word earlier conversation. He was the one that said, Peggy, you're starting a conversation. That's what you gotta do, you're gonna start a conversation with these women. So that gave me all the power I needed to know that it must be something there. So we did an inaugural event at the governor's mansion. Fred was in attendance and you should tell that story actually. 46:53 Speech 46:53 Well, when when we gave the speech and in the catalysts for wisdom women. Okay, so 47:00 yeah. So when she, when she had came up with this, this idea to do bourbon women, she one of the things that she would talk about was like women were some of the early distillers and they were always a part of the industry. And kinda you know, how it is when, you know, kind of my calling card, especially at that time, was to find, you know, kind of call people out a little bit. And I was looking into that. It's like, when I saw that when she told me that all right, I'd saw it. I said, That's not true. You know that, you know, no one's ever written about this. There's never been any, any ads. Like I was like, surely if there's this is true, then brands would be all over you, we'd have all kinds of brands named after women. And I started looking at she was right. And not only was he right, I found women that the brands didn't even know about. And so I said, not only is this awesome, I have a book here. And so that was kind of the catalyst for what became whiskey women. And really at that book more than anything propelled my career to where I am now. But it all We joking, I 48:06 just want to say I haven't made a dime off that book. I don't have commission I don't have I don't have title. I don't have anything. movie rights. I don't have anything maybe 48:16 maybe Oscar Oh, like playing the NBA or something. 48:20 Oscars Fred son, by the way, it's my godmother. It's probably gonna be five, six. 48:24 Yeah. Likely, let's see can dribble Really? 48:26 Yeah. Well, the anomaly. 48:29 Beauty of that whole story, though, is that Fred was unlocking something that he couldn't believe no one had. And so I was unlocking something that I knew needed to be unlocked. Yeah. 48:40 And no, that was in that moment, that that's like, you know, you look back on life. And you know, there's probably a dozen moments where you're like, that will always stand out. And that was one of them. And to be honest with you, if you did not run with that, you know, I because now what Berber women was the first but now they're probably we 30 women centric whiskey groups. Sure. 49:03 National. Absolutely. 49:05 And it started with you. 49:07 Thank you. I appreciate that. We're really proud of the fact we were the first female consumer group to talk to the industry. And now we're in six cities formally. We have thousands of women across the United States that attend we've done over 200 events, if you can believe. And then we have our annual what we call sip podium, si p symposium 200. Women came in from 23 states this year to Kentucky to go on excursions, learn about whiskey, bourbon, the culture and heritage that surrounds our great state. And it's been I don't know how else to say it. It's more than networking. It's more than educating, which is what we stand about. But it's empowering. And these women come together from all over they've never met each other and the camaraderie and that's why I always say, bourbon brings us together. Yeah, it's a universal welcome. And bourbon women's not a demographic. We're a psychographic. You know, it's these women are love soft adventure. They're curious. They have bravado, confidence, a lot of them are really just professional women who want to have a little bit of an escape, you know, from the normal business life. It's been probably I would say one of the best things I've ever done in my career. 50:26 One of the things to Kenny that she's that they're doing is that they are getting data from their, from their members and what they released some data recently about where they like to go well, on the bourbon trail, right. And that was stunning to me. He was like, 50:43 Yeah, what do you think about that? I was 50:45 shocked. It was it will. So it was Maker's Mark and Buffalo Trace, they were kind of neck and neck. Those are the two that I always recommend. But then after that was like, who wasn't on there that shocked me like we didn't see us. That's a Weller. You know, we do didn't really see any of the craft brands. Woodford had a small pie, small piece of the pie. It was it was very stunning to me, like what was appealing to bourbon women. From a tourist perspective? Well, 51:12 I'm glad you brought that up. Because one of the things we do do is pride ourselves on some of our research. And what we're trying to do is kind of debunk the myth to the industry. This is part of our mission that you have to pink, a whiskey for a woman to like it. And so what we found universally, whenever we do tastings with the women, or whenever we're at an event, and we're doing surveys or blind tastings, they undoubtedly choose the spicier, more robust, and higher proof bourbon is a 51:45 memory serves. Booker's almost always wins these things. Yes, 51:49 yes. And also, heaven Hill did one more the Elijah Craig, barrel strength, oneness. So that's part that's really that's information that helps the industry because again, you don't have to dumb it down for women. They like it like you like it. 52:05 So as long as Jim Beam and Heaven, Hell are listening, you figured out a new target for these brands, you know, 52:09 our cohorts coming 52:11 along? We're seeing more, 52:14 or any our co host Ryan, you know, he like he's not here, but he he secretly likes flavored whiskey. So I don't think he would want the brands to listen to that part. 52:25 The other question I kind of wanted to roll with this as well is, you know, we've talked to groups about how they start. bourbon societies and stuff like that talk about what the the growth was here. And was it? Was it small growth at first, did you plateau? In the past six months? Have you seen a hockey stick? Kind of what did this look for 52:47 bourbon women? Yes, I would say we shot off like a rocket when we first began. And then just like when you're selling whiskey, it's easy to get into distribution. But then you need pull through or retention, you know, you need that second order. And because we were in Kentucky, I mean, it shot up. But until we went outside the borders of Kentucky we plateaued a little bit. And then once Indianapolis came on, you know, Tennessee, DC, Chicago, in these other cities wanted to be part of this. And that was the unexpected. I never designed bourbon women to be something that we make $1 off of. I never designed bourbon women to really be a national organization. It was it really wasn't there for me at that time. The women spoke to us, the women demanded it. And we listened. And we we stepped up and we said, okay, we're going beyond the borders of Kentucky. And that's when we really took off. 53:48 How are you marketing it nowadays? 53:51 Well, nowadays, of course, largely through the internet, largely through our website, invitations. We have branch ambassadors in each of those cities that I mentioned that are creating events for women and excursions that they can go on. So that's a big piece of it 54:06 are using like meetup com or something. 54:08 We we do event bright we do. You know, it might be what we call meet needs, which are just real simple meet at a bar and have some cocktails together just to enjoy camaraderie. Or it might be a really formal event. You know, 54:21 you said camaraderie, they're looking to make new friends in a new city. So So kind of what is that? What is that profile nationality is 54:28 the the freshest information I have is just us coming off a symposium in August. And it really took me back because the women I were meeting, they'd been to the last five symposiums and they keep coming back and coming back. But this time, for example, we had a woman that brought her five nieces, you know, all female nieces that were 21. And over. And they made an excursion of it. You know, there was an aunt, or I'm sorry, a mother, who brought her her mother and grandmother to this event. We have a mother that it brings the daughter who just turned 21 we have women's weekends, where a bunch of girlfriends are getting together, and they want to go away. And we're the tickets. So we're seeing all kinds single married, Grandma, you know, young 21, who just got her her, you know, driver's licenses says she can drink now. So all of those things, all of those things, it's a combination. 55:24 So it was there. Is there one that kind of fits more the bill than the other? Or is it just 55:29 say that, but we're all across the board. We are all across the board in age, we're all across the board. geographically. We're all across the board from mother, grandmother daughter. And, and I love it. I think that's that to me, said, this is how women come together. 55:48 Are you trying to do something that's that's unique as well just for just for an all female audience versus something that would just be for a general bourbon meetup? 55:56 Well, what's so interesting to me is more and more we're seeing and more men come to our events, because they think we do very buttoned up events and a very deep in the education, which is part of what we do, and we're proud of. So we're seeing more and more men, so men can come to it. But as far as the camaraderie of the women who are coming, it's the it's what they want it they get as much as they want, how they want it. 56:24 So I kind of want also rewind a little bit to some of the had some questions that were lined up from some of our listeners about distillery experiences and stuff like that some things that that they kind of wanted to know. Sure. And in one of them was kind of thinking about, what do you really feel that visitors are looking to get away from an experience there? Like you mentioned earlier, that they want to come away with some some vivid memory? Like, what, what else? Is there something that is? Maybe it's physical, maybe it is intangible? What else do you think is missing there? 56:57 Well, I you know, I've been in hospitality for 30 years. And when you really boil down hospitality, it all goes back to human needs. You know, everyone wants to be heard or listen to or feel appreciated or feel special. Those are human needs. And so to your question, you know, I think aside from saying I had a great experience, when they meet a tour guide that treated them a little bit differently. That's a great memory, 57:25 or they Eddie Johnson's the best ready 57:26 Johnson is magic. I mean, he's magic. That's what he does. So well, I don't care what level of person he meets, where they're from, what they look like Freddy Johnson's gonna make you feel like you're the only person in the world? 57:41 Do you think he could probably just go out and start consulting? 57:44 I don't think you can. I don't think he can teach what he has. 57:48 It's really an art. Yeah, it really is as much as we do customer service training at different distilleries, and it's an art. And I can almost tell the people who have it or don't after doing it this long, but to me, it's about human need, and making you feel like you're the only person in the room. And that's really what so many of our master distillers have done over there like Jim or Jimmy Russell, to me, I call him the gentleman distiller. He was always in Fred and I just did bourbon and beyond, you're on stage with us for the Jimmy Russell tribute. And that's what I quoted was, he had that magic about him, that there'd be 1000 people in the room. But he was only about you at that moment. So when you ask that question, what's the consumer looking for? What's the tourists looking for? They're looking for a special moment where they were recognized, or they had fun with you and being part of somebody's memory, their entire memory of all the vacations they've gone on? You know, that's a real honor. So that's my philosophy of hospitality is to never forget your part as you're part of a family's memory for the rest of their life. 58:55 I think that's accurate for probably 99.9% of them. But then there's the crowd the old bourbon geeks, 59:03 yeah, 59:04 there are. They're out there. What are you? How do you? How do you prepare your staffs for, for the guy who knows everything and won't hear it otherwise? 59:14 Well, the only way that you can deal with what I call a difficult person, and I see the sometimes in the tastings, I do, I'm sure you do. And you do. There's always one in the crowd. 59:26 There, they're always old ladies, for me, like I always have an old lady, lady bourbon has to be from Kentucky. 59:37 Well, first of all, my advice always to defuse the situation. Because usually when you have a difficult person, they love being in the spotlight. And they want to draw attention to themselves. So you have to kind of diffuse that person, like pull them aside and say, oh, let's have this conversation over here and get them away from the crowd. You know, or Oh, great question. Do you mind if when we're on break, you know, we we asked, we all answer that in just a little bit. Because when you defuse it and pull it away and kind of steal the thunder, it definitely helps. definitely helps. 1:00:09 One thing I don't think we did touch on that we need to before we wrap it up is about the the kind of how you pioneered the the bourbon trail as well. Oh, okay. Right. Yes, we definitely need to kind of talk about that be what the original process was the idea? Who did you say something to I heard it first, it was just a brochure like, 1:00:29 Oh, it was definitely just a brochure. But what's really a funny story, and it was more out of I think, trying to do our job, then it was great marketing, creative minds. There were two women in the industry. That one worked at Maker's Mark door, our, let's see, Don anally. And then Doris Calhoun worked at Jim Beam. And we were all visitors, center directors, I was at Woodford, and we were friends because and that's a great thing about our industry to even though we were competitors, we were also friends, we really enjoyed each other's company, we would travel to tourism shows, and we would drink each other's bourbon, you know, and taste each other's bourbon, and we just had fun together. But we were all in the same boat, we had to bring people to the visitor center. And so we start talking about it. And we said, you know, people are going to see you and they're going to see you and they're going to see me wonder if we did some kind of, you know, cross marketing, that these visitors could come to all of our facility and we mark it all together, you know, in a way that it's kind of a road trip. So that being said, So Daniel, who I don't know if you know that name or not Katie, he was the Eric Gregory of Katie a at the time. And we took it to him and said, Hey, why don't we bring all the distilleries together and put it in a brochure and market it so that, you know people have a choice to go everywhere. And maybe we'd save some money on marketing, and maybe we would get more traffic. And so over a million stops later, as reported, this past year, a million over a million stops on the on the bourbon trail. And I'm very, very proud of that. And Eric Gregory, in my opinion, when he came on board really brought the bourbon trail to life, and put it in a marketing, highlight and importance and priority. So that our infrastructure that all of our distilleries are investing in would pay off. And it's worked. And it's worked. So yeah, so I can't take credit, there was me that it was a small team of women. 1:02:33 How cool is that to say like, you were part of the team that spearheaded the bourbon trail, what is now probably the the most successful tourist 1:02:42 strategy in Kentucky. 1:02:44 Oh, easily. I mean, it's it goes hand in hand with with wine country. Yeah. 1:02:49 And again, I will say, I have not gotten a commission, or anything. we debated back to something's happening here. We'll get you a plaque. Oh, no, thanks, Kevin. I'm 1:03:00 getting something out of these visitor experiences. 1:03:04 People should have taken a penny from every transaction at every distillery and then you would be retired forever. It was, you know, 1:03:09 really, at the end of the day, when I think of the industry and how great it's been to me and the legacy that I want to leave. You know, these are the types of stories that I hope people will say, you know, and I hope I'm not finished. I think there's more to come. I got more 1:03:25 in me where we're starting to see the next wave of Peggy know, Stevens, and that's the writer. She's she wrote me some time ago and said, I'm going to be your best rider before it's all over. And competitive. I said, I said, All right. And her stories have been fantastic. Well, fantastic. 1:03:47 I appreciate that. I do have one more question about this bourbon trail map. How many were there on there when the first one was released? I believe seven. 1:03:54 And what do we have now? 23. Plus, 1:03:57 was Buffalo Trace on 1:03:59 he was called ancient age. Also agent at Buffalo Trace was on there. They were called ancient age 1:

This guest gets more TV face time than The Bachelorette. He has built up a big fan base among weather geeks and now Jim Cantore of The Weather Channel joins Bourbon Pursuit to talk about his career, braving crazy storms, and how weather patterns and global warming are affecting today’s bourbon stocks. We also get to hear a funny story shared by Jim and Fred as they were drilling barrels of whiskey together at Jack Daniels. This episode gives you a look into Jim’s everyday life and how bourbon became a part of it. Show Partners: Barrell Craft Spirits blends and bottles at cask strength just as nature intended. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order with code "Pursuit" at RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: The Curation Desk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fSTu8zbAwM Chuck Cowdery’s Top Bourbon List https://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2019/05/the-best-bourbons-ever.html Pursuit Series Episodes 010 and 011 https://pursuitspirits.com/ This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about whiskey decanters. How did you get involved in weather? When did you start drinking whiskey? After you first started drink bourbon, what were you seeking out in the store or bar? What's the strangest thing anyone has said to you in public? Do you get annoyed that people associate you with disasters? Do you get a high being in bad weather? Do you ever get panicked in certain weather situations? When you celebrate a job well done, what do you drink? Tell us about your interest in cars. Was deflategate real? Can your joints hurt from weather changes? Does increased rain impact a microclimate? Waters are rising around distilleries. How will it impact the warehouses? Will the rain affect the white oak trees? Do you predict any climate shifts in the Kentucky area that could affect bourbon? Tell us about the time you picked out a barrel with Fred. How does humidity affect barrels? Jim Cantore Website/Social https://jimcantore.tv/ 0:00 You know, I think I get hit on more now that I look like this that I did when I had a full head of jet black hair. 0:08 What's your wife think about that? Honestly, I think it turns her on. 0:24 This is Episode 203 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your host, Kenny Coleman. And there really wasn't a whole lot of news that happened in the whiskey world from our major distilleries out there. So I figured let's look at some highlights of recent news articles and videos from the past week. Fred Minnick, you know him as another host on here, but he also has his own YouTube series called The curation desk. Sometimes it's about bourbon and rum reviews. Other times you get just good nuggets information. And this past week, he released a video on a very unusual topic. I'm not going to spoil it for you, but 1:00 involved in illegal activity that accounted for more American whiskey sales that then in turn led to the temperance movement in the mid 1800s. You're going to really enjoy this one, so make sure you go and check out the link in our show notes. friend of the show, Chuck cowdery came out with his list of his favorite Bourbons of all time. Only six top this list and most of them are unicorns. Very, very old Fitzgerald Parker's blend to mash bills. But there's a surprising one on there. And that's wild turkeys Kentucky spirit. Yes, the widely available and abundantly on the shelves Kentucky spirit. You can read all of his tasting notes plus the entire list within our show notes as well. You heard me talk about on the show two weeks ago, but we have now opened up our recent pursuit series bottlings to the public. Episode 10 is one we're super excited for. It's our collaboration with Finger Lakes distilling. It's a five year we did mash bill bottled as 2:00 barrel proof. And as much as to our knowledge, it is the only one in existence that's out there. It tastes like you're chewing on a piece of Juicy Fruit gum. So you're going to notice a subtle nod to that in our show notes. And this is priced at $65. Episode 11 is like a salted caramel coming in at 10 years from our Tennessee stock of bourbon, and it's priced at $75. The links to pick these up are in our show notes and you can read more about them at pursuit spirits.com. We've recently sold out of episode six and are running very low in episode seven. So don't sit around and wait for these. Today's guest gets more FaceTime than the bachelorette. He's built up a big fan base amongst weather geeks. And now Jim Cantore of the Weather Channel joins bourbon pursuit to talk about his career. braving those crazy storms you see in viral videos, and how weather patterns and global warming are starting to affect today's bourbon stocks. We also get the 3:00 funny stories shared by Jim and Fred as they were drilling barrels together at jack daniels. This episode gives you a look into Jim's everyday life and how bourbon became a part of it. As a side note, this was a very timely episode. This podcast talks about the current climate and how Jim predicted the current tornado outbreak that's affecting Oklahoma in the recent weeks. And our thoughts and prayers are with the families affected during this time. But with that, let's hear from our good friend Joe over at barrell bourbon. And then you've got Fred Minnick with above the char. 3:37 Hi, this is Joe from barrell bourbon. We blend and bottle a cast drink, just as nature intended. You can find it on the shelves at your nearest retail store. 3:47 I'm Fred Minnick. And this is above the char. I'll never forget this moment. I was in a room and cognac France with a bunch of spirits professionals. The fire was crackling. We were drinking some 4:00 Fresh cognac out of the barrel, and we started debating how cognac was marketing itself. We all had some type of criticism for how that they were pursuing new markets and we all love cognac and to this day, I love cognac. It's a wonderful branding. And one of my big criticisms was around Louie. Louie the 13th bottle. It's like 1500 to $5,000 in Las Vegas. It's a $15,000 bottle. And it's in this beautiful You know, Crystal decanter that really does look like it's fit for a king. But we don't know what's inside it. The cognac maker. You know, Remy Martin never really revealed what was inside the bottle. That was 10 years ago. And today we're starting to see that happen and bourbon. You're seeing these fancy fancy bottles come out nice decanters really crafted and just look or Nate and 5:00 Beautiful. Woodford Reserve just came out with one bad rap bottle. It's going for 1500 dollars. Now brown Forman is always transparent about what's inside the bottle. And they were transparent with this as well. But no one's really spending 1500 dollars to get the whiskey. It's for the decanter. And I To this day, think that those decanters, well nice and they're very decorative and they add a nice little element to to the home. I think they devalue the whiskey a little bit. Because when you are buying something for the bottle, you're not buying it for the whiskey. So there's got to be a happy medium. How do we get past this desire to attract the ultra rich without stabbing the regular guys in the eye? You know, I think there's got to be a happy medium, but how do we get there? Do we lessen the decanter do we put better whiskey in the bottle 6:00 I don't know. But I do know this. When I see a 1500 dollar decanter of American whiskey, it leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. And I haven't even tasted the bourbon yet. And that's this week's above the charm. Hey, if you have an idea for above the char like someone did for this one, hit me up on Twitter or Instagram. That's at Fred Minnick. Again. That's at Fred Minnick. Until next week. Cheers. 6:27 Welcome back to the episode of bourbon pursuit, the official podcast of bourbon, Kenny and Fred here today talking about, you're talking to a person that's in a business that kind of affects a lot of what happens inside of bourbon in itself, because we talked about Kentucky bourbon, really making an impact and really how the climate here makes it happen as well. But you know, we're not going to talk about just that. We're in talking about the personality behind the person that's here today. And I know Fred has a pretty good 7:00 story in history about how we came to know our guest today as well. Yeah, that's that's right, Kenny. So we're joined today by the great Jim Cantore, of course, the man you don't necessarily want to see in your town because if he's there, that means bad weather is coming. And we were judges together on the jack daniels barbecue competition a couple years ago. And we really just kind of hit it off and just had, you know, we just started talking whiskey and weather and other things. And, you know, I've met a lot of lot of interesting people in my life. And you know, Jim's one of those people that just kind of stuck and I'd say we've remained friends and I get texts, three o'clock in the morning, one in particular whiskies any good. And he gets he gets texts for me about like, you know, should I take cover for this little raindrop coming down, you know, so 8:00 It's fun, Jim. It's really great to see you. Thanks for coming on bourbon pursuit. Absolutely, brother. Yeah, as I think I got a text me about 20 minutes ago saying, Are you ready to go? Yeah, I'm like, yeah, I'm ready to go man next Wednesday. Sounds good. We talked about five o'clock. I'm ready to go. Yes. Yeah. You know, actually, it's this Wednesday. 8:19 Traffic trying to get home and job I apologize for Fred. We're working on his calendar. We're here with it. 8:27 I haven't had time to go back and check to see if it really was next Wednesday or this Wednesday. 8:33 Or do that it's probably I do I research. There you go. 8:40 Well, I gotta tell you to Atlanta traffic. Geez. That's kind of like real traffic, unlike livable. You know, you guys get murdered there on the traffic. Awful. Yeah, you know, it's kind of interesting with all the movies and things now they do and in Atlanta, it's almost like 9:00 The movies has come to the LA traffic into Atlanta. It's really weird. But, you know, one of the mistakes they made years ago was not putting an outer loop in a city of 67 million people know, so not having that outer loop means you got all sorts of commerce coming down from North Carolina, up from Florida, you know, from westbound and Alabama into Georgia, and everything kind of hits in the middle on this little thing called the perimeter in Atlanta. And I mean, it's just incredible. And when you throw a little snow in the mix, who gets real fun? How do how do folks in Georgia handle the snow? 9:41 Well, 9:43 they all leave work at once, Fred, and I mean, I guess it's human nature at the end of the day, because people are like, all right, wow, it's snowing. It's here a little earlier than they told me it was going to be so I need to get on the road. I need to make sure I get home. But of course is there yet 10:00 On the road, so is everybody else. And and and so all that commerce is still coming through Atlanta, and it just locks up the whole system. We had we had Snowmageddon a few years ago here, and tonight spent like 2024 hours in their vehicles. 10:18 Just gridlock. I mean, I've seen news stories where people are like, uh, banning their cars on Atlanta's freeways as well. I mean, that's happened in the past. Well, they did. And, you know, I don't want to just say this is Atlanta is problem because I've seen it in Raleigh. I've seen it in Charlotte. I've seen it in Nashville. I've seen it in New York City. Okay, I mean, I've seen it in St. Louis, just recently. So, I mean, it's just, we have to have a better plan of when we shut down. I mean, you know how we are as humans, man, we want to push it to the edge. And then Okay, we can execute our plan. It doesn't always work that way. Sometimes you got to be early and take your listings. If the forecast doesn't verify, and I'd rather be on that end of it. 11:00 The end of it with, with mom picking up you know her daughter or son at the daycare or dad whoever's picking them up, and they're crying because now they can't get home. And there's no food in the car. There's nothing to back you up with so so those are the human stories, the human part of that, that that I hate to tell, but it happens. Well, let's let's get into like how you got to where you are. You are one of the most fascinating social media follows. For anybody who's interested in weather. Tell us how you got involved in weather where what was the moment that made you want to be a weatherman it was it was all my dad. 11:38 You know, we sat down at the dining room table. And he came up to me and he said, I was sitting down he was standing and he looked at me as someone you want to do for the rest of your life. I looked at I mean, I love electronics. electrician, a fireman. I mean, those are, that's what I'd like to do. He goes he goes look is you need you 12:00 You need to go study the weather. You're like a frequent snows Aren't you leave the barn light on, you wait for the first flakes. You go shovel the walkways your mom can get to work in the morning. You know, you got to wake up for the next 50 years of your life every day to go to work. You better love what you do. You love the weather, go study the weather. Boom, that was it. And that was that was before the weather channel right before? 12:26 Yeah, so he said that to me, in 82. And that's the interestingly enough, that was the birth year of cable. And a lot of it in Atlanta. Because of the, you know, the relatively mild weather with the exception of Snowmageddon, the fact that you needed, you know, 365 24 12:47 seven workforce, you know, low cost of living, I mean, all those things kind of played into cables roll. Certainly I think Atlanta certainly being the birthplace of cable but 13:01 Yeah, we I remember in 86 when I graduated four years later, and my brother came up to me, I was up on a scaffolding painting a building. I just graduated college and he goes, Hey, Jim, The Weather Channel wants to talk to you. And I'm like, oh, wow, The Weather Channel, because we had just gotten them on, on cable. So when I started, we were in 28 million homes. And at the weather channel's peak, we were about 108 million. So I got a chance to really go through that tremendous growth period with the weather channel company, and it was just, I mean, I wouldn't trade it for anything. Wow. best parts of my life, man. Really? When you were you were when you were first when you first started there. What were you drinking? 13:45 Oh, two beers. 13:48 will cheat beers. Okay. I've been making a lot of money. 13:54 Online. So Fred, I went from Old Milwaukee and college. Okay, you believe Sorry, bro. I gotta be honest with you. 14:00 awakened, 14:01 Niccolo Blake. It's great. 14:04 Alright, so when did you When did you start drinking whiskey? 14:10 Probably a 45. I'm just kind of late bloomer, I guess. 14:15 It's almost like his I started playing golf at about 30 years old and, you know, after golf, it's so nice to just go have a drink. And it actually it kind of it started with scotch. And then you know, somebody said, try this single very My dad was a big scotch drinker. So I would go home and see him and you know, as he aged, it was kind of nice to just sit down and have a drink with my dad and drink what he was drinking. 14:40 So I found this old bottle. My grandmother used to work for a liquor store distributor. I found this old bottle of four roses 14:51 like that, why weren't you drinking this? Because I don't know. It's been sitting there for 20 years. So I I popped it open and, you know, the court would 15:00 Just a disaster. I mean, it was shattered. So there's like, so I just pushed it down in there and I started pouring it out and there's cork in the glass. But I took one sip of that. I'm just like, Oh, 15:13 this is my drink. Wow. So you're a scotch drinker on the bourbon drink. So four roses is the bourbon that turns your scotch palate into a bourbon palate. Yes, sir. That's awesome. Fred, do you think that's a little unique? And it's in its sense, too. Because I mean, I know that both of you and I we've tried older four roses, and some of it might not even compare to today's four roses in regards of like the quality that I didn't put out back then. Well, here's the thing is like I would want to see the bottle because there were by by him describing it as having a cork. That makes me think it might have been what was are we talking 90s was this in the mid 90s Oh gosh. This this 16:00 bottle was probably from the 60s 16:03 but when did you When did you have that taste? 16:08 Yes 90s so so it's been in the 90s so if that bottle was from the 60s you know do you recall any like 16:18 foreign language on it by chance was there it was clear American It was 16:26 a bottle because it was shaped like a 16:29 like a pyramid almost. Okay, so then what you had then you actually so I Kenny, he did not have a blend as your as you were thinking he had. I actually think that you had a single barrel from the one of the first single barrels from four roses as they were making their comeback and it was actually from the 90s 16:50 I do have a bottle in here somewhere. 16:55 Really 16:58 good luck finding that Fred. Just 17:00 You want to take a few minutes or 17:03 timeout timeout? Yeah. 17:08 The way that bottle you're describing Did it have a Green Label? 17:13 Do you recall it didn't have any label didn't have any light on it. So so you know, so I will be willing to say it may not have been four roses, but the fact that my grandmother was a distributor and we had four roses glasses, shot glasses, four roses, everything. I'm wondering if, if that was it, and I certainly you know, recently the comeback of four roses. as we as we all know, it's been huge. 17:38 So that's been kind of a bright spot in my eyes for my girlfriend drinks. Nice. Well, we'll talk about that later. 17:47 Well, you but the bottom line is there was there was a bourbon and the 90s that brought you you know, to where you are now and what after you had that taste? What were you 18:00 seeking out in the store and at the bar you and I've talked before a little bit I love grain. 18:07 I love a little candy corn. You know, I love a little caramel. And 18:14 I just I love the just the front end when as soon as it like hits my lips. It's just it's just delicious. And all of a sudden you know what? I started like smoking cigars. And the cigar became a great thing with the bourbon. This even makes it taste better. And cigar so especially you know, especially not an overpowering cigars, so just a lighter, medium bodied cigar. But that's that's kind of how it all got started. 18:42 They didn't even have the sin over here. It was starting to lead you down. 18:46 Well, yes. And you know, meeting friends early didn't help any 18:51 life. So I remember I remember walking down Lynchburg with you and like every 19:00 fifth person someone would stop. Oh shit. There's Jim cantorial tornado coming, you know, is there a hurricane coming? You know, everybody like they would see you and they would be a little afraid of what was commented? what's what's the strangest thing someone has said to you in public? 19:18 Can you sign my breast? 19:22 That's a new one. Fred is Amanda for that to you yet? Yeah. I'm just like, No, I can't. So yeah, I don't do body parts or dollar bills. I don't do face the dollar. So those are the two things that I will I won't sign but everything else is pretty much fair game. 19:41 Related equipment. An answer for that? You were not expecting I wouldn't know. I was. 19:48 I was I was expecting, you know, something. A little bit more weather related versus finding 19:56 the snowflake for me. Yeah. Okay. I'll get on that. 20:00 Do You Do you ever get like annoyed that people have you associated with 20:09 basically disasters? Because that's all you do. You mean you chase disasters for a living? Yeah. So when I did when we were working with MBC, which was just wonderful, I love that relationship with NBC, especially with NBC Sports. Because I got to do the Olympics. I got to do the Winter Classic, Super Bowls. It was just so it it was like being a part of a team, like a sports team. You know? 20:34 They they ran that show like you You had a role. It was an we treated everything like an event and it was really amazing. We rehearsed ad nauseum. We timed it out. I mean, it was really great TV. I I love working for NBC Sports. Wow. And I would do it again in a minute. But 20:56 you know, to to go and do some of those at the 21:00 high end events and be able to be either part of the show in even the littlest of ways with guys like doc Emmerich. And 21:11 you know, Bob Kostis and Al Michaels, who has coined me Dr. Do. They presented me at the London Olympics one time with the Doctor Doom hat? You know, because Al's kind of got an als kind of a closet meteorologist. When he goes out. He tells me when he goes out golfing with his buddies, they asked him about the weather. What's it going to do with? What do I need to dress for today? Of course, Medallia in Southern California. I 21:38 was like, 21:40 Well, yeah, of course they're asking you that it's an easy answer. But that's it was just great working with them. But But I don't know maybe because I just show up in some of the worst weather they've asked me to go out and 21:56 cover hurricanes floods, about done 98 tropical 22:00 systems as I like to call it, because they be the dependent depression and landfall, a tropical storm or hurricane. And 22:08 now I never say I want to get to 100. But it's inevitable, right? I mean, we know we're obviously always going to have hurricanes and tropical storms, but it just I, I like to put myself in the position of some of the worst whether they're all different to get like a, like a high doing that, like you have an opportunity to use. Yeah, I do. I mean, especially when I was when I was a kid. You know, I started The Weather Channel at 22. So, you know, 22:32 by about age 32 when I when I got out there, and this lady came up to me and writes will beach when I was covering hurricane death, she goes, You know what, Jim? I can see her too. She looked petrified. But she walked up to me through a bunch of people. And I said, Ma'am, can I help you somebody and she goes, I just wanted to tell you, you know, we know it's going to get bad here, but I just wanted you to know that we're glad that you're here to take us 23:00 through it. Wow. It was a really interesting moment in my life, especially as a meteorologist because all of a sudden, it wasn't about the swashbuckling through a storm anymore. It was more of a god, you know, I, I got purpose here. And I got it. I had a way to communicate with these people, get them out of harm's way, and really help. 23:24 And that's what that's I never forgot that moment because that was really the turning point. So Jim, I grew up in Oklahoma, and you know, we had NATO's all the time and we lived I lived through many many tornadoes and 23:39 Gary England, oh, it's someone like yeah, we would we would watch News Channel Nine and he, you know, we felt like he saved our life, you know, or we felt you know, he we knew to get covered. Gary was talking about it. And, you know, 23:54 out here in Louisville, Kentucky. I feel like they start getting all panicky if there's, you know, 24:00 One cumulus cloud and the air is there a you know are there's are there like some meteorologists who just have have the chops some who are just a little bit more panicky. I mean, you're brave and you go into anything, but I feel like some of them, you know, I will be honestly, there's probably things that 24:20 none of us should be in. Frankly. 24:24 It's your job to mission as a meteorologist to relay the message, to get people out of harm's way and to not panic yourself. Because if you if that is your 24:37 that's what they see in you. They're not going to listen to you. Okay, there. There needs to be a sense of calm, there needs to be a sense of control over going through this. It's not going to last forever. Most people will make it through it. Sadly, some will not. That is just the way of the world when it comes to a strong tornado. 24:58 We don't I mean, we hit 25:00 That we, as meteorologists, we love the tornadoes that are way out in the open plains. They are over, you know, pasture land that hasn't been farmed yet. That doesn't bother anybody. They don't take out any buildings. They don't hurt anybody. those are those are the beautiful ones to admire from a distance. But the ones that start coming through town you start seeing it debris, shield and cloud come up and you start seeing pieces of building and metal flying all around you know, your your your heart drops your stomach a little bit because you know, now you're in an area where there's population when you start seeing power flashes. 25:38 You know, you know that somebody's in harm's way hopefully everybody got out of that but you know, there's a chance and we're about to interesting enough. I mean, I don't know when this is going to play the podcast we're doing here but we're about to enter a period of really daily tornadoes. In Tornado Alley, traditional Tornado Alley Fred where you are from 26:00 It's going to get it's going to get really busy starting Friday out there. And it's going to last through at least the end of the month. 26:07 And that's 26:09 you know, it's it's such a somber feeling cuz I know I mean, growing up in an area where people died, you know from from a tornado and then you know, that's happened here in Kentucky and Indiana as well. It's just right. You know, I think a lot of people just look at the TV and see you all as like personalities, but you really, 26:27 you really do feel vested in, in the people's lives out there. It's that's not just talking. You know, 26:34 what's really interesting is, you know, I've worked at the weather channel for 33 plus years, and I've never really considered it a day that I have to go to work. Oh, yeah. Is it hard to get up at 315 in the morning, you bet. But it's hard for me to get up at 9am. So 26:52 so but but the fact that I this is a service, this is always going to be a service at the end of the day. 27:01 And that's what makes it great. 27:03 And never gets old that way. That's how I look. And when you come home when you sell it when you're celebrating for like a job well done, like, you know, finding a storm cloud or finding, you know, a pocket of 27:17 you know that saving someone's life, you know, the weather channel, what do you drink, and when you get home to celebrate, or at a bar, 27:25 the first thing I do is 27:28 if he's if he's getting up at 315, he's probably going to bed around. 27:33 I'm going to be asking you guys, I mean, a lot of times there's not celebration. I mean, it's you're coming back, you're literally dragon coming to the door. Because you're working long hours, you've witnessed hundreds of people that have gone through death and destruction. They've lost everything that they're that they own, that they know. You, 27:52 you're out there. Again, like I told you, it's your mission to tell the stories to let the rest of the country know what's happened here and get these people 28:00 as much help as they can get. So when you come home, there's a little PTSD. All right, you gotta deal with this. You gotta you gotta let it go. And I like to go up to my lake house in Lake Blue Ridge, Georgia. I love it. The water the mountains, I grew up in Appalachia. I love it. Being in the south, it's just a southern extended the same mountain chant I grew up on and you can let everything go there. And after that, you can sit back and you can say, Okay, what did I do? Good. What did I do bad? How could I improved upon what I've done? Who Who else could I have helped What else could I have said before the event that may have helped people? Those are the kind of things that you know, sitting out by the fire with 28:45 a little bit of will it's more McKenna 28:50 or speaking French language now. Yeah. So you know, now I know he's like, I know he likes these. I've seen his I follow them on Instagram and when I see Fred 29:00 Yo picture of these, you know, these bottles I'm like, Oh man, this is perfect. I'm right on board because if Fred likes it, it's got to be good. 29:08 Well, I'll tell you like, you know, I can feel that emotion, you know, coming from you. And I just got to tell you, you know, 29:17 yeah, it on mission in your life, you know what I'm yeah, it's right, you know, 29:23 very different but it's like, you know, 29:26 there's got to be pockets of what you do though, where you do find a moment to celebrate. I mean, because you you and your colleagues have found storms and save people's lives. You know, and there might have been one or two or you know, some so you get moments to celebrate or is it always a feeling of like you want you want to know in the moment to celebrate let me give you an example. So the other day yesterday, actually, in the morning, I go in, and in the Storm Prediction Center in Norman, Oklahoma puts out all sorts of for 30:00 Cass, and one of the things they put out are severe weather outlooks from day four through eight. 30:07 And what they'll do is if something needs to a certain probability, they will color in these different areas where severe weather may strike. So I'm looking at their new day four through eight. And I'm like, Holy smoke. Day 4567, and eight are all colored in. I've never seen that before. They must have done that before. No, actually, I don't think they have. So I get on Twitter and I send them a tweet and ask them if they've ever done that before. And sure, and so I started saying it on the air. You know, Hey, guys, I actually think is the first time that that the Storm Prediction Center has an outlook that day four through eight. And it was it just turned out to be that it was it was the first time that they've done that. So you know, what that does for me, is okay, he he he's passionate about the weather. He's alive. 31:00 into his craft to be able to recognize that after they God knows how many outlets that they put out here over the years I mean that was kind of a cool moment for me okay so if that if that's if that's a way to celebrate then then so be it yesterday I just remembered that 31:18 we could find as many small celebrations that drink as we want I mean it's true and in fact is you know Kenny and I you know this is since this is what we do for a living you know, we we just celebrate celebrating so we were looking for something to tell us what do so 31:36 that's a celebrate to day four through eight from SBC. Those guys do a wonderful job. And you know, that's the other thing to a lot of people don't realize you see me on the air. You don't realize how many people are behind the scenes of the Weather Channel. How many meteorologists that converse with how many people are in my ear like Greg diamond, he can't talk. You know, this is you know, Oklahoma City just got 1.5 inches of rain in the last 20 minutes. 32:00 Boom is a great stat for me, I throw it on the air. You know, great Twitter followers like Ryan, Molly and Eric Blake from the hurricane party. It's endless. It's endless, which is why I like Twitter. It's kind of our weather, weather enterprise home. 32:19 But just wonderful, wonderful people wonderful information, information, wonderful knowledge gathering from all these people and friendly, you probably see that you probably see that from comments on G probably see this, you know, I've seen you with with old timers that have have been through the business. You know, you you sit there and you spend a few moments with him and it may not be on Twitter, but it's actually in real life sitting next to him talking. And you kind of pick up a little something. Yeah. And it just it just helps the whole cause right at the end of the day so 32:50 and Kenny I would say like, you know, 32:53 the the weather industry is is relatively new in terms of like, you know, the American you know, scene 33:00 But I would say Jim would probably be on the Mount Rushmore of other professionals that's, you know, in and you know, our colleagues 33:11 have hair. 33:14 That's gonna be a new one. Yeah, I'm interested to see that how they do that. Just the various they get the sand actually at the sand down the heads, they can't chisel them out, you know, 33:23 the wind in the rain, I'll do that. That'll do it. It just means you're going to get your cranium better to be a better composite. 33:31 But, you know, you know, 33:33 Jim, you've also you've got some other interests. You're a big fan of cars. And you got you got some stuff there behind you. Tell us tell us about the wall behind you there all the cool Well, what's what's interesting about this stuff behind is I'm a big Yankee fan. Okay, and the NHL ray which the dragster is you see behind me there. 33:50 They actually the Yankee sponsored one of their couple of their cars and yeah, you can see those stragglers, let me see my let's go up a little bit. There. 34:00 Yeah. So you got that going on back back in the day in terms of NASCAR. 34:07 I was a big bottle Labonte fan, Bobby kind of reached out to me and I wouldn't watch him when the 2000 season 34:15 with his crew at Joe Gibbs racing, I mean, that was awesome. 34:19 But they're probably using any sport that's more impacted by the weather than racecar driving. I mean, you can't, you can't unless you're you know, driving an IndyCar it's going to be heavily impacted certainly by by the weather. I mean, ever how they tuned the engine. Obviously, with slicks, you're not driving around a wet track, even a couple of drops of rain, makes that slippery track even slippery or so. There's all sorts of things that certainly impact especially NASCAR. Now, I I see the footballs behind and you talk about sports being impacted by weather. And I know this is really old news, but I think a lot of our listeners 35:00 are probably football fans was the deflate gate was that was that a hoax? Was that is that 35:07 could could you realize so here's the deal even though I'm from New England 35:14 I am actually a huge Packers fan because we went up into the story on you know, Green Bay playing Green Bay and this is before they made the new warmed up fields at Soldier Field and Lambo back in the day in the winter up there was like playing on summit. Okay, when you took a hit you it was like taking a hit on pavement. That's what it was like it okay. And there were there weren't these specialty pads and these warmers these these guys were out there saying players today are soft. Their budget was these 35:47 little little worlds getting a little soft, but that's beside the point. 35:52 But the point is, is that I we went up there to Green Bay, and I'll never forget this guy's name is red daddy. 36:00 He was equipment manager. And he right when we walked in he was so friendly and so wonderful. He took us right into the equipment room. He started handing out sweats socks and hats because it was cold the story we're going to do it was cold because you may need a few of these extra layers and just kind of being around Green Bay for the whole four days was incredible. I'm walking through the you know 36:26 to far as getting taped up in the in the tape room or wherever it is the prep room but to go out and do practice and he looks over at me goes hey, you're that you're that you're that weather guy right? Sure you love 36:41 me is this is the I'm what I'm thinking myself Holy smokes this frickin brett farr. And so I'm like, What do I say to that? So I look back at him. And I say You know what? Hey, you're that 36:54 you're that what that the quarterback guy. So he just laughed and it's just what but it was just so damn 37:00 Down to Earth. There was nothing pretentious. It was just this wonderful town that owns this wonderful team with a tremendous winning tradition. How could you not be green Bay's Pat Green Bay Packers fan? Unless you're a Vikings fan? I get it. But the really and the first game we went to, here I am down on the field. And it's freezing rain is my flight gets canceled. Okay, from from, from Minneapolis to to Green Bay. I'm like, Oh, no. So I will draw. I'm like, screw it. I'm driving. So I'm driving through an ice storm. I finally make it there. It's the fourth quarter. 37:36 They they tie up the game. The Packers tie up the game. And then you remember the Antonio Freeman catch off his helmet? Yeah, yeah. Okay, I was on the sidelines. And 37:46 it was just unbelievable that the passion of the fans that just ever the nobody left and it's Dude, it's 35 degrees, freezing rain. It's brutal out there. And so now it's an overtime for this game. And so I never forget 38:00 Never forget 38:02 to cover story. So deflate gate was 38:10 you've probably heard of finishing beer using whiskey barrels, but a Michigan distillery is doing the opposite. They're using beer barrels to finish their whiskey. New Holland spirits claims to be the first distillery to stout a whiskey. The folks at Rock house whiskey club heard that claim and had to visit the banks of Lake Michigan to check it out. It all began when New Holland brewing launched in 97. Their Dragon's milk beer is America's number one selling bourbon barrel aged out in 2005. They apply their expertise from brewing and began distilling a beer barrel finished whiskey began production 2012 in rock house was the club is featuring it in their next box. The barrels come from Tennessee get filled with Dragon's milk beer twice, the mature bourbon is finished in those very same barrels. Rocco's whiskey club is a whiskey the Month Club on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories from craft distillers across the US along with you 39:00 bottles of hard to find whiskey rack houses boxes are full of cool merchandise that they ship out every two months to members in over 40 states go to rock house whiskey club com to check it out and try a bottle of beer barrel bourbon and beer barrel rye use code pursuit for $25 off your first box 39:20 so deflate gate was 39:24 so as you yeah you keep deflecting that one up 39:27 you know Robert Kraft and Florida or anything so I'm glad you kept it too flaky. uh you know hey, it, it is what it is but how do you know how to use the weather to realize that you know what happens within the cold winter's night you go you start your car you start driving and if you have one of these newer cars to tells you your tire pressure went down 39:49 less because the cold air so So Tom Brady was right or they were they were right there study was right. Does that the right 39:58 let's let's stay a little bit on the 40:00 Some some weird kind of questions like, I have friends who tell me that their knees hurt and that thunderstorm coming. Is that real? Yeah, the pressure changes can affect people kind of cranks up the Arthritis a little bit. 40:14 Sometimes the humidity sometimes the moisture in the air, the cold, damp. 40:19 Yeah, I totally believe it. You know, I don't think there's anything it's one of these things for the candidates. It's not super scientific. I don't think there's a cut rule on it. It is because of the because everybody's body is different. They're affected differently. I mean, one guy's low pressure may not be another guys or gals. All right. It's different. But it's it's definitely there. I've heard it enough to say we've got the evidence. We got the circumstantial evidence. That's very interesting. In American whiskey we are. 40:50 We are read as the same problem he drinks something you can feel it in is nice and nice. 40:55 Especially when I fall down the stairs 40:59 when we 41:00 When we look at like American whiskey we are very much you know, the majority of the distillers are a lot of them are using like kind of climate control but there are some who who are not. 41:12 And it comes up a lot about you know, is climate change going to have an impact on American whiskey and really you know, I think the verdict SAP but the one thing that we're facing a lot of right now in Kentucky is the rain and and like constant flooding, you know, right. So here's what I'm going to say to that. 41:33 We grow a lot of corn. In this country, the Corn Belt is very well known, you know, from the Midwest up through the, you know, across the Great Lakes and into the High Plains. 41:46 They've gotten soak this year, they're going to get soaked over the next couple of days. So that's certainly delays corn. 41:54 But if you let's just say that we warm the planet by two degrees, and the 42:00 Now we open up all these growth areas and Canada 42:05 so not you so now you extend your growth area up and Canada 42:10 you know they did, I think will always be able to grow corn is my total will grow it somewhere will get it from somewhere. Does does like increased water impact a kind of a microclimate of an area because what we're seeing is we're seeing the waters rise around like distilleries like the rivers are getting higher, the lakes are getting higher. Yeah, how will that impact like warehouses and stuff like on a kind of a like a man, that's my biggest concern is, you know, when you look at a warmer atmosphere, you can hold more water molecules, right. And it's the same physics that are squeezing them out. But if you get more squeeze out, you're going to squeeze out more and so it's raining harder. And it really riffing the find these just prolific rainfall events, double digit rainfall 43:00 totals, you know, and ask the folks at Houston they got Houston we got a problem okay because they get these things all the time now. 43:09 So imagine being a city versus you know, farmland where you can take certainly a little bit more water but that is the problem it's raining harder. That is not good because it's raining at rates that the soil can absorb the moisture and so we're also it runs off rich fertile soil and so you changing the landscape you're changing the fertility of the soil, and that's a big deal 43:31 at that, that's something also we have to keep an eye on for sure. There's also maybe a concern like right now the the wide oak forest of the eastern part of the United States seems to be fine, but if this rain keeps up, you know, it's it's surely going to get down to the roots of a lot of those white oak trees. You know, 43:50 it's interesting the the the white folks seem to be doing okay at the moment. 43:57 What I've noticed though, are the red Oh, 44:00 are very susceptible to drought and heat and cold. They're very finicky. There's a lot of rock in the middle. There's a lot of broken limbs, they just don't look healthy. Especially with more water. For example, blares, Ville, Georgia got 44:22 100 inches of rain last year, which is unprecedented. I'm going to be interested to see as we go through the next few years, what impact that has on the Oaks, I actually have, you know, a property where I took down a bunch of red oaks because they were a threat to to homestead. And I couldn't believe what I saw in there, me and my buddy when we cut this tree down, we're like, holy smiley, the whole middle of this rotted, it was gonna fall Anyway, I'm like, thank God, we took that down. So now I'm looking for other red oaks that may need to come down because of the same problem. So there's something going on. 45:00 With the oak and yes, Fred, do 45:04 you know animals and plants know, or had a hint of what's happening before we do as humans? I think that's possible. I really do. So when you look at the last season, the red oak tree now, when you look at Red Oak versus white oak, here's a little kind of a fun like bourbon historical fact, the distillers actually figured out like red oak, that kind of stuff happened to red oak, and it wouldn't retain water when I turned them into barrels. And so that's one of the big reasons why the majority of the barrels are made from carcass album, you know, species of white oak, but yeah, yeah, but 45:39 red oak. Is though, is the red oak has always been the weaker species. Yeah. Yeah, 45:45 Jim, I've got a kind of question for you to when we're talking about, you know, the weather paint, the weather changes and everything shifting. And Fred might be able to kind of talk about this too, because, you know, living here in Kentucky, we hear all the time that Oh yeah, this is the best climate for 46:00 been the cold winters, the warm summers, however, the past two or three winters here and been pretty mild. You know, we've had maybe one school closure two inches of snow. And that's it. I mean, we're not talking, you know, weeks upon weeks of like severe cold weather. Are you seeing any kind of like climate changes or shifting that's happening, at least in our part of the country where we could expect this sort of happening for years to come that could even affect future stocks? 46:33 I mean, guys, there's no question the last 30 years or so, which is it you know, about viable climate record? We've seen warming, especially in the Arctic regions. 46:46 There's no you know, we've measured that the same instruments of measure that warming, so it's definitely there. What's interesting though, is people need to realize that it's not just warm when we 47:00 When you get an overall warming and other things are going on, it can lead to other extremes. In other words, how many record warm February's and marches that we had, and then all of a sudden to snap into a cold blast in April and record lows. So it's these kind of zigzagging really extreme undulations of the jet stream that we haven't quite figured out. Is that is that something because of now what is used to be so much ice over the Arctic? more dark areas that are absorbing heat and maybe changing the overall jet stream? There's there's a lot of speculation here. There's just a lot of stuff we don't know. All right. 47:42 Is this a short term trend? Can the earth correct itself? are humans playing a part? I certainly think you know, with the amount of you're talking about what 7 billion 47:52 probably yes to all the above. Yeah, quite a few billion people out there, you know, certainly impacting things. I do hate that. All of this gets pulled 48:00 Assize because I think if we looked at it from a purely scientific perspective, we could analyze it a little better. But what happens is everything gets politicized and get one side going for the other. And then one side denies it. The other side fights back. It just I feel like we're, you know, the climate in conversation is that a disservice due to political it's very sad because the, the ends of the spectrum, the deniers and the in the alarmists are the loudest, okay? 48:32 It's the majority in the middle that are willing to listen and do something and be good stewards of their planet that are kind of open to all you know, hey, okay, I listened to you. I listen to you. You know what, yeah, maybe I could recycle better. Maybe I can drive an electric car. You know, people that genuinely want to be good stewards of the planet. I think that really needs to be. 48:55 I agree. And don't you think in this wonderful 49:00 world that we live in with so much ingenuity that we will figure out stuff and look at look at Tesla, you know, looking at 49:09 Elon Musk and Tesla, just a great idea. But sometimes with solutions come problem, what do you do with the batteries? You know, 49:19 when the cars are dead, you know, that's a lot of that's a big chunk of waste right there. You know, right now, when we looked over the oceans, I was reading something the other day we have, especially over the Pacific, the pump, the plastic gyres, now four times the size of France, whether that's true or false, I'm just telling you, I read it, that's a big deal. Okay, we can't have that kind of plastic over the ocean. We need to fix that. That is not being a good steward to your planet, and boat in before we worry about these other things. We need to fix that. We need to we need to get a handle on that. And then we can start dealing with the other stuff because that's what humans do. We figure stuff out 50:00 Now, this is a real that's a really great segue into a moment when you and I actually picked out a barrel together. 50:09 How we figured something out so that I can't use the hundred year old drill. Is that where you're going with this? So let me paint the picture for for the audience. This is because it's we're at the barbecue competition and it's the party and 50:28 we're with stormy Warren and a couple other folks course. You know, stormy has his own Sirius XM, you know, station. And we are great guy. Yeah. Also also a cowboy. You know, go pokes. 50:46 You gotta throw it in there, don't you? Yeah, it's right. Go, folks. So we, you know, I'm with the assistant master distiller Chris Fletcher. And, you know, he's given us a tour, and it 51:00 Say, Chris, let's, let's take some barrels. And he's like, Well, you know, we don't really do that, you know, as Chris, let's take some barrels. It's me It's 51:12 seriously Kenny, you gotta go back here. I mean, you know, Fred, well, he's literally drilling this guy. Yeah. All right. And I in the way that he got it done was Fred literally going back and telling stories on the stories from this distiller he was kind of one upping the distiller almost every story that unless like, Who is this guy? This is 51:39 I mean, he just knows everything about bourbon and the history of jack daniels. I'm like, this is unbelievable. So he couldn't say no to friend. Anyway, go ahead, Fred. I sorry, I I No, no, and I gotta tell you, I don't like I don't like doing that. And then never. It's never like super 52:00 intentional. But, you know, the these these brands, these distilleries, they just they have their like marketing spiel and they're like their templates, right? And I just like, you know, when they say something like, you know, we were the first sour mash or something like that I'm gonna be like, well, actually in 1818, you know, 52:23 and it's not their fault. It's just, it's it's marketing, but I know dude, I'm telling you, you had to be there because I'm just like, Who is this? 52:34 He knows everything. Like, this is unbelievable. Like where you 52:40 agree, like he's been a dick as he knows everything. It wasn't like hesitation. It was kind of like, hold on a second. I mean, just off the top of his head. And he would just come out with these incredibly beautiful stories, like only Fred can tell, you know, and it's just like, whoo. I want to hear what he has to say. So 53:00 distiller could not say no when it came to open anyway go ahead we didn't understand go barrel go we were 53:09 we got the chance to crack open some barrels and then it came down to like well which barrels we want to go to? And I said well let's go you know let's let's let's find the ones that have the best age on them. And as we went into the one of the warehouse I don't recall the warehouse but it was you could tell was it was paring down it was a little skinnier. There weren't as many barrels in there and so it was obviously one that they were pulling for their single barrel program. So this was an allocated single barrel warehouse, whatever warehouse that might have been, and he comes up with this fucking drill. 53:45 Will it will it and all these other distilleries have like a real drill? You know, jack daniels with this like hand crank drill, with like I was the one from who's the original distiller for jack 54:00 Daniels? Well, are they 54:03 with a narrow screen or limit loud Dan call? 54:10 100 years old, let's just put it that way. It was a I mean, seriously, it was all I mean, maybe had like two years old probably what do you think it was old? I can't, it did look like something that they would have had American pickers kind of thing. It would have been on the set of Deadwood. It was that old. And they come in here and it's got like this, this handle where you kind of you hold it, and then you crank it over here. And the drill bit the drill but actually looks like it's like somebody forged it with a hammer. I mean, the drill it looks like ancient. So like eight so as old as it was, they could have at least replace a drill, but I don't think they did. Anyway, so it gets in there. And he's drilling. The damn thing just disappears. 55:00 He, he loses the truth in there, like in the in the barrel barrel. Yes. So I'm cranking this thing think about an old crank. And I'm holding cranking it and all of a sudden it just pops out of the drill. I'm like, Oh, it's stuck in the barrel. It's stuck in the barrel. And of course I'm you know, I'm not the laughingstock. Well, we did. We were all laughing but you were also 55:25 stormy did try to drill and Kyle tried to drill a little bit too. Well, you were the only one who had any kind of muscle. I mean, if you take a look at Jim That boy is rip. You know, he's got the biceps. He's got the deltoid. Okay, so the true story here is that stormy and Kyle were too drunk the drill 55:48 that's really where the story but go ahead pick it up. And I was here just playing catch up at this point. 55:54 me he really had the up to it, but so sorry. So that one, that drill didn't work. 56:00 gap. And lo and behold, jack daniels didn't have just one like 1895 drill. They had two drills from 1895. And increase comes marching up with this, this second drill, but this one even looks older. You could tell it they haven't been using. It's got dust on it, and the bit is even more were down. Yeah. 56:23 You're absolutely right, sir. And he gets in. Yeah, Jim's going along. And that won't get stuck in there. So, yeah, 56:31 but so yeah, so Yo, jack daniels two artifacts. That's what we're really good part though. Where we're drinking it got in we're finally got in. And then we start drinking when there were like, how many barrels of wind up tapping we end up tapping like five better three, right? I remember five. Well, okay. And we and actually, Jim, I don't know if you know this, but the barrel that we like the most. They actually bought look for a charity that I support. The Kentucky brain injury Alliance. I could 57:00 The Brain Injury alliance in Kentucky and in the home ride foundation for for vets. So they end up selling it. 57:09 So since we've just beaten up jack daniels a little bit, no, not really just there to tell everybody what happened once we got a sip 57:19 of either the first or second barrel and and it looks at you, Fred and he said, Fred, what would you get this? Or maybe it was storming you said I can't remember who said it, but yeah, no, I definitely said it was like mid 90s or something. I thought it was 9292 57:38 good memory. But it was it was like an incredible complicated whiskey. I've got a bottle of it in here in the office somewhere. But it is I still you know, jack daniels gets gets a bad rap for, you know, for just kind of being in every day like mixer with Coke. But you know, that's what pays the bills. The fact is, I 58:00 They have some incredible barrels in there. And if if you can get a single if you can drink straight from the jack daniels barrels, and I'd put that whiskey up against anything and Kentucky, there's a lot of great whiskey in those warehouses. You know, what's really interesting? Is it for people who haven't been to jack daniels. 58:19 I think the weather actually helps them. Because it's almost like a little tropical rain forest back there. I mean, it's just so humid. You know, you can't help but think whatever this whiskey is sitting in is not going to pick up whatever is in that barrel. Take a part of it. And that's where the magic happens. Right. Yeah. I guess a question for you about humidity in general. I mean, what's that actually doing? Do you think to barrels? I mean, Ryan was who couldn't be on the show tonight. He's one of our other co host. He was talking to like barometric pressure, like, does this humidity help with something like that? Well, you know, it's sad. You mentioned 59:00 barometric pressure because I got a buddy. His name is Paul mentor. 59:04 He is a rum distiller in Key West Florida. First first legal rum. And he 59:13 basically plays that barometric pressure. 59:17 And that's when he distills is wrong with the pressure drops, so he uses the pressure as a part of his game. I think that's really, really interesting. 59:29 But certainly, you know, I don't know how that works in terms of pressure, but I know humidity. Certainly when you add moisture to wood, it swells. 59:40 It opens up the wood. So maybe it brings out more the flavor of the wood into the bourbon 59:47 or the whiskey. Who knows? Well, maybe maybe when you retire from the weather channel, you could go and take a side gig at some of these distilleries and kind of just do more research. I think that whether barrels I think that is simply brilliant. I love that idea. You know, can 1:00:00 I was actually about to say that you know, I'll take 5% that's fine 1:00:05 I think we need to go at this together guys. 1:00:08 We're a team here come on you know Kenny does bottles on whiskey so you know that's there is that pretty impressive right there? Yeah, yeah he's there they're making a go at it it's called the pursuit series and now he's going to send you a few bottles and that right Kenny? twist mom we can make it happen 1:00:26 So Jim, man, I gotta tell you 1:00:30 the just the bourbon world. It it does need a face and whether you know we need we need someone who can be the bourbon face and the weather world. Are you up for it? willing to take that channel chat channel challenge, you know as I kind of get a little bit older and you know all the young kids start taking over in the in the weather world. 1:00:56 Maybe it's time to maybe it's time to switch guns to bourbon. Let's do it. 1:01:00 first things I have to tell you it's been it's been a real pleasure. You know, just being your friend but also having you on. And you know, 1:01:10 cheers to you my friend and everything that you do for for America. Absolutely. And you know, I know we'll be more than happy to be your agent and you know make sure you we talked to the right distilleries for you will make that happen well guys if after we play this and and and the weather channel looks at it and says you can't Tory promoting liquor on on a podcast. That's we don't think we're going to breach your contract. I mean, need you guys. So well happens. here's the here's the good news is that spirits advertise a lot. And you can just spend that as saying like, Well, actually, I got a line over here. You know, they may want to advertise. Oh, contracts good. I was about to say I was like, this is your opportunity right now to say like, what's your go to because all of a sudden the contracts going to start rolling in? Yeah. Well, we're going to hold off on that. 1:02:03 Put together kind of a magic case. And something will arrive in the mail and we'll we'll see what happens. Right. And I know Fred certainly been trying to get me to try some different things. 1:02:13 And they're good there. When a package comes in the mail for Fred, it's like, whew, we need to go here. You know, 1:02:20 and but you need to do from now on, send me the package and tell me what you're sending me before you put it out on social media. Because once it goes out on social media, then you can't get it anymore. You know, I need to get McKenna right now. Because of you. You know how hard it is to get McKenna right now, America fact he kills all of us. I mean, no, ill will feed people. 1:02:48 Thank you, brother. Thanks, guys. Cheers, brother. So my suddenly Yeah, man. Thank you, Jim. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. You know, Fred, as well for for coming on and making sure that you know, able to bring 1:03:00 Jim, because I think we've got a lot of great information in regards of not only just Jim's past and his history, his family kind of having a connection to the distributing business as well. And really what, you know, I guess how whiskies making an impact in your life now too, as well. So it's fantastic just to know that that kind of personal side with you, and before we kind of close off, you know, Jim, I want you to just give an opportunity to let people know like how they can follow you on social media and how they can find you. Just in that regard, as well, guys, I mean, here's how I run my social media at Jim kantor's all business, all weather on Twitter. 1:03:38 Facebook gets all those those tweets at you and Ken Tory on on Instagram is more like, Who is this guy outside of weather, you know, what does he do? Where does he go? Who's he hang out with? You know, what's what's going on with these kids, you know, with Fragile X syndrome. The Parkinson's that my ex wife is dealing with 1:04:00 So you know, those kind of things that this the other storms in my life, you'll find out and I'll tell everyone right now, Jim is an amazing man, and amazing man. And you can see a little bit of that on Instagram. And I hope you all go check it out. Thanks, Brett. I appreciate that. I'm just a man and I appreciate being that guy. So if other people can find it, find a little laugh through through my Instagram or Twitter, Facebook, whatever, enjoy it, enjoy it. Absolutely. And we'll make sure to put that in our show notes for anybody able to go and quickly link to it and be able to follow you as well. Then make sure you also follow bourbon pursuit Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and if you like the show, help support the show patreon. com and if you like what you hear, make sure you submit any sort of suggestions we love hate mail. We love fan mail, whatever it is team at bourbon pursuit.com. So with that, Jim Fred, thanks again for joining today. And we will see everybody next week. Cheers next time.

Host of the Subconscious Mind Master Podcast and Author of the book Fear Busters, Thomas Miller, talks about how he transformed his life in his later 40's and shares the never-before-seen tools he's creating to help people become more conscious in their own lives -- it's top secret, he hasn't even shared these tools with his own tribe yet, but he's sharing them here today! We also talk about the thoughts we develop in childhood and how those thoughts shape us as adults -- and while we cannot change our childhood, it is our responsibility to fix our subconscious mental patterns as adults. A fascinating person. A fascinating hour of conversation! NOTE: Theres 2 minutes of audio that sound funny, but that completely corrects after those 2 minutes. Sorry about that! But thanks for sticking with us!    Continue the Conversation on Instagram! Website:  www.jancius.com Instagram: www.instagram.com/angelpodcast/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/angelpodcast/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLOL5Dgsssv7A4C7SLvyqWg?view_as=subscriber   Connect with Thomas Miller Website Facebook   Show Notes *Show notes recorded by Sonix.AI.  [00:00:00] Hello beautiful souls! Before we begin I just want to share a few freebies with you. If you subscribe on my Web site, your name and contact info will be put in a jar that I pray on every morning. The Angels also have me pick a few people from that jar every week to text personalized Angel messages too. That could be you! All you have to do is subscribe on my Web site.   [00:00:20] Also you can win a free session with me if you write a positive review of this podcast on iTunes. After you post a glowing positive review on iTunes, just e-mail me with your name, contact info, and review and you'll be entered into a monthly drawing to win a free session. For details on all of this visit my Web site. www.jancius.com. W w w that Gen.   [00:00:41] You're listening to angels and awakening where we believe daily life can be lived from a constant state of love joy peace, bliss, ease and grace. Why are people always searching for a better way to live? Because there is one life doesn't have to be stress filled and anxiety ridden. You can make lasting changes that lead to a life you love. My name's Julie Jancius. I have the gift of connecting with angels and bringing through their healing positive messages to my clients every day. Join us on the angels and awakening podcast each week as we explore our big spiritual questions. Interview experts and bring through Angel messages. I am so excited you're here.   [00:01:38] So today we're here with Thomas Miller. He's the host of the subconscious mind mastery podcast. A podcast he's been hosting for over six years. His podcast covers the powers of manifestation, the laws of the universe, and how the conscious and subconscious minds work together. His listeners say that he provides an accessible road map to learning how to change your life for the better. How to turn your life into what you want it to be. Thomas has talked to all the great authors researchers scientists everyone who is at the forefront of brain research and what I love about your story Thomas is that you say you started to make this shift in your life that you really came into these big changes these big leaps in your later 40s. Can you tell us more about who you are and what you do?   [00:02:33] Hi Julie thank you. What a great introduction and loving your new podcast. Thank you for having me on.   [00:02:40] Oh thank you for being our guest. We just appreciate it so much.   [00:02:43] Well my story goes back quite a while quite a few years ago I had major changes though in my late 40s. So yeah I was a late bloomer of becoming conscious if you will.   [00:02:58] Hey it doesn't matter when it happens just that it happens right.   [00:03:01] Boy is that the truth. But you know, now my heart is for folks your age to get this because then you have all these decades in front of you to really compound this incredible growth that you can have in your life and the impact that you can have on the world is phenomenal. So yeah I played my part did my role and I'm living out my journey but. But yes I have such a heart for young people so I'm really thrilled to again to be participating here with you. But my story goes back to Tulsa Oklahoma where I was born and Tulsa is a fundamental town.   [00:03:44] I mean it's a great, talk about a great place to grow up wonderful community but it just had a fundamental underpinning in it culturally. So my parents were wonderful, very loving. We were a Christian family and that has a belief system and kind of especially in that it was it was accentuated because of where we were and the teachings that were common in around our community. So life was very rigid.   [00:04:18] I mean this is the way you were and this is what you believed in if you stepped out of that then there was disfavor with mom and dad and there was disfavor with the community so you can kind of see how even though everybody responds differently it was not the kind of place that you would step out of line if you thought I mean right. Because if you did I mean it was you know there was judgment quickly would would prevail so my brother and I because of respect for our parents are wonderful mom and dad who are both in spirit now we'd never either of us rebelled we didn't become the rebellious teenagers and climb out the windows at night and you know and go do all the stuff that a lot of kids do. We were obedient. So I went to college having never done a lot of the things that typical teenagers might have done.   [00:05:12] And that belief system created a box I guess that I lived in I thought that was the right thing to do. I mean that's how I was taught. I was brought up in Christian schools and all this and I just thought that that was the way that we were supposed to be. And I never knew that there was this whole big else wise way of seeing things or doing things. And what broke all that down was after four decades I had been through two divorces and see in that model you didn't get divorced once much less twice. So I had to sit down and figure out what happened. And that was my reaction to my second divorce was spent a year kind of just shaking my fist toward heaven. That was a bad year. That was kind of an off year but then I sat down and I said I've really got to figure out what happened because I don't want to do this again. So the first thing I did is I erased that entire belief system. I was like that didn't serve me. So I got to start there because at least I'm coming from that perspective. So I need to change my perspective on everything about life.   [00:06:25] So just like you would erase a chalkboard I erased my belief system because that belief system was really your programming since childhood right.   [00:06:35] Totally totally programmed and that's why I called the podcast subconscious mind mastery because I discovered after about a year of picking my life apart completely that a lot of the beliefs that I constructed as a child played themselves out without me having to lift a finger to do anything so I could see things that I was afraid of.   [00:07:01] That I built in fears as a child.   [00:07:04] All of a sudden I'd look when I was in my mid thirties and boy it had happened just as I had constructed it so let's break down like an example because I think you know so often in a spiritual community you know we talk big and broad back.   [00:07:20] How give me an example of this. And maybe one of the. The thoughts are the subconscious constructs that you had and how you rewired it.   [00:07:32] I found this really cool thing just not long ago and I did a recent podcast on it called Destiny cards. Have you ever heard of Destiny cards. No I haven't heard of that. Oh you ought to google it. It this is really fun and cool. So I found these destiny cards and it's basically it paints a beautiful picture of our how we came in and what our journey is through a deck of regular playing cards and there's a whole lot more to it than that. But my destiny Card said that I would have challenges in two areas relationships and finances or relating to money. OK so one of the constructs that I built in this actually really got reinforced after that my first divorce the biggest reaction that I had to my first divorce was that I was going to lose the money that I had built up in my 20s and 30s.   [00:08:34] It's not a funny reaction I think it's a typical reaction.   [00:08:38] I had two young kids and I was more concerned about the money. And that's hard to admit but that's the way it was.   [00:08:46] And see a lot of people would make themselves wrong about that. Like what. You weren't more concerned for your children than you were your bank account. But then when you come back and you you know these things that are built into the structure of the universe to show us the path and show us the way like this little Destiny card thing that comes along and says Dude you were wired to have these problems oh so I was just going through C and this is where the consciousness had I been aware of that I could have chosen. We all have choice right at the end of the day we all have choice. Absolutely.   [00:09:27] Then I could have chosen to do that to react to that differently. Problem was I was blind. I didn't know. I simply didn't know. So I went with what was there and what was there created this fear around I'm going to lose all this money well then when I started to pick my life apart I spent a year doing this with a journal literally almost every night reconstructing what had happened.   [00:09:58] So I would go back to particular events in my childhood and I was able to go back and find areas where I interpreted lack of money.   [00:10:09] So that's what happened in my in my family.   [00:10:12] We never quote unquote had enough although we had plenty in our lives.   [00:10:18] So you went back and you really found those moments from your childhood where these constructs of your mind started so that you could then piece it back together in a different way. Re Re pattern those thoughts within your mind.   [00:10:35] So what was normal to me as a child. That's absolutely right.   [00:10:40] Just as you said that was the process.   [00:10:43] What was normal to me as a child was. Inflation is going to rob all of our savings because prices are just going to keep going up and up and up.   [00:10:52] And that was true back in the 1970s. My mom lived in a world where she would go to the grocery store and a loaf of bread would be 50 cents more next week than it was this week. But it stopped you know it changed and the economy changed in the 1980s and it was different. And then prices were going down. So it's like but everything was just this crisis and emergency and the fear and we weren't going to have enough and if you died without accepting Jesus as your savior you were going to go to hell and just fear everywhere. In my background.   [00:11:27] So I applied that fear to money and sure enough that fear fulfilled itself.   [00:11:35] So I found myself after the second divorce having to start to rebuild everything financially and emotionally and spiritually and all of it yeah.   [00:11:45] I love those times though when they say spirit breaks us to make us.   [00:11:50] I had a similar thing happened in my life where it was like everything just came crashing down all at one time and it took away the self identity that I had put into my career that I had Clinton to my relationship and it it made me take a step back and realize I'm not worthy because I have this title I'm not worthy because I'm finally making the money that I wanted to be making at work. I'm not worthy because of this or that I'm worthy just because I am.   [00:12:26] That's a hard one to get sometimes isn't it. Yeah.   [00:12:29] Especially when we think we've messed it all up you know. Right yeah. So yeah I mean it's like and I've I've used a couple of other tools that just have helped me with perspective these destiny cards just happened to come across my path recently and I'm finding it to be very exciting and fun but it's an astrology is another thing that I've used to just paint the picture of what these realities are. You know I'm wired differently than you are. Go figure that Julie really.   [00:13:01] So my journey and the challenges that I'm going to face in my life and the struggles that I have to go through are going to be different than what yours having to go through and you might find ease and flow with money.   [00:13:17] Know I was looking up one of those cards in fact for a very close friend of mine and that's exactly what his card was. And that's what's happened in his life. You know it's like so that I'm that I came here to struggle in that area now that I know that.   [00:13:36] And like use a pun here put the cards all out on the table and let that be okay. Now what am I doing.   [00:13:46] I mean if this was just a kind of a fresh reminder that now what I'm doing is I'm studying everything I can about about finances and money and I'm just kind of going back to the basics and rebuilding that because I had done well in my 20s and 30s and then I let all this fear come in and kind of tear the whole thing down. So I'm just rebuilding that area and having fun doing it.   [00:14:13] Oh I love that. I love that.   [00:14:16] So Thomas you've been studying subconscious mind mastery for longer than it's been popular right.   [00:14:22] You've talked to the authors the the people who are at the forefront of studying consciousness and positive thinking. What do you know for sure from all your research on how our brains work how the whole system here on earth works to get us where we want to go to really bring the desires of our hearts to fruition.   [00:14:44] That's a great question.   [00:14:46] Well so a couple of things one of my favorite sayings is when the student is ready the teacher appears and that happens so much through that process and a teacher appeared for me in 2013.   [00:15:04] His name is Fred Dodson.   [00:15:06] He's written 25 books and he and I connected through me soliciting him to record his books for audio books. He had not done any audio books at the time so Fred and I have done now 24 of his 25 books.   [00:15:25] He has been a mentor to me in my growth in this new way of being that I can't even begin to describe and not only just from a mentor as in reading his material or taking courses or going to seminars or whatever. I'm sitting in front of this microphone for hours reading his material as him so I'm figuring out how I can inflect his voice how would Fred say this. So for the last about five or six years I've literally in a sense become like a second image of Fred Dodson right because I'm trying to really honestly communicate the way that he would. So I listen to his videos the way he talks the way he and flex and try in my own skin to inflect that. And I think that's had a tremendous rub off.   [00:16:20] So Fred has been really I have to attribute where I really got most of this information is from his work. So if somebody wanted to look into that they are certainly welcome to his name is Fred Dodson. And with that I would prove again because you're not going to pull one off on me again right. I'm not going to just believe something because you say so. So I put it all to the test and what I found is that his material and all of this material really on that we are co creators I have found it true over and over again to the point where I'm still like wow this thing really just manifest. I'm getting ready to get on an airplane this afternoon to go up to Colorado to work on consummating a business deal that I created over the last three years and it's happening and I am going to make money off of this transaction exactly as I created it over three years ago.   [00:17:22] So it does work. I mean it's exciting and it's still happening right now.   [00:17:28] I love that that's so perfect. So in your research where do you find to be the most fascinating part. What do you find to be the most fascinating part of my mastery or maybe from this author that you shared what is the most fascinating part of his message that he shares you.   [00:17:49] Well you're asking some great questions. I love a journalist's background. OK well me too then will I. All right then I'll I'll get to Shay here we'll get going on.   [00:18:02] I love it. All right. That's a great question. The most exciting thing to me has been the discovery that this is a soul based journey we get so caught up in the trappings around us. We live in a physical world. You live in Chicago I live in Dallas I go back and forth to Colorado. We have families. I heard a dog in the background. You know we have kids. We do our thing right. Yeah.   [00:18:35] And that becomes the structure of our reality. So everything we connect to are the physical things around us when you zoom up ten thousand feet like a drone you know now we have the drones I don't know if you've ever flown one but they are so cool because you can just hover up above the trees and then all of a sudden you can rotate that camera all around the view and look at it completely different than we do down in the trees.   [00:19:03] And when you view our life from a soul perspective and I know that's a lot of your work and you are gifted in that area to connect with that beyond the physical. That's a wonderful gift to have and I you know I think we all can to a degree but I know there are people that are more gifted with that my girlfriend Mirjana is like you you know she will hear messages from the other side. I don't have that I you know I mean maybe it's developable but I don't have it today more intuitive maybe but not in the way that you guys do.   [00:19:46] Fred did a book Fred wrote a book called lives of the soul and it actually picks up a death and it goes through until our next incarnation.   [00:19:55] What happens in between Michael Newton also does a lot of this type of this work that we are a soul and eternal soul on a journey that we are growing that this isn't our first rodeo and that we come in with in essence a blueprint it's like a roadmap we have choice within the road but we are on a road and boy did that answer so many questions that that I couldn't figure out in the old paradigm. So the most exciting thing for me was discovering from our higher level that this is a much bigger journey than it is manifesting a new car or new house or gee I'd really like to move to Chicago.   [00:20:51] How do I pull that one off.   [00:20:53] You know it's. Does that make sense.   [00:20:55] Totally 100 percent well and that's what we're really coming into right is I don't want to say stepping away from religion but it's because I grew up going to Catholic school and I could remember as a little girl the first thing that I wanted to be was a nun. But there wasn't a you couldn't have a family and be a nun. And I knew at a very young age that I wanted a family.   [00:21:19] So we have these constructs within our minds so young and coming and stepping out of those and realizing like you just said so beautifully so eloquently is that we are souls we are souls first and foremost and we can choose with our free will to live more from our souls energy to live more from our intuition which is I believe our souls thought system on the other side here and now. So this is such fun work to be able to share the broad community.   [00:21:59] Well and I know you'll be addressing this as your podcast episodes unfold but that you can connect with those souls and hear a message other than how we came up.   [00:22:13] Hey I'm trapped in Purgatory. Get me out of here or Woops I didn't say the right word and the prayer and I'm in hell because of it.   [00:22:22] You know it's like we laugh at that but you know I mean it's serious business that I like. I believe that for 40 years. What if I didn't get it right. You know a fear of hell. And one of the boy one of the transformative conversations I had is with a really good friend of mine Daniel Dana Carvey lives here in the Dallas area and we were on a patio not far from here having drinks one night and he said you know what if there were no sin.   [00:22:55] Think about that. Think about if sin just didn't exist because as he was saying at the end of the day who really is the judge well the Bible is the judge.   [00:23:08] Well wait a minute. There are 80 denominations because we can't agree on how to interpret the Bible. So let's back up who again is the judge whether you just send or not right. So what if you just took cent off the table and just said we're all on a journey now.   [00:23:27] If I if I kill another human being I'm going to certainly pay for that.   [00:23:34] That's a crime in our criminal justice system and this gets weird.   [00:23:39] I'm telling you this gets weird don't judge me on this but when you zoom up to that 10000 foot perspective then the mindset of today that everything is supposed to be nice and cushy and soft and easy and smooth goes away and I like the book by Neale Donald Walsh.   [00:24:05] Little Soul in the sun. Are you familiar with that little book now to cancel it out.   [00:24:11] Yeah it's a kid's book.   [00:24:13] Beautifully illustrated and the story is the two little souls on the other side who are getting ready to incarnate. And one of the little souls says that their mission is to work on forgiveness   [00:24:27] But the Little Soul is concerned because it doesn't know how it's going to be able to forgive unless somebody is mean to the soul that the soul has to forgive them so it's little partner soul says well I'll incarnate with you and I'll be mean to you. I'll do something to hurt you so that you can forgive me. How about that and the first hurdle. Yeah that first little soul says why would you do that for me would you really go down there and hurt me so that I could forgive you and the second soul says I would do it because I love you that much.   [00:25:12] I got to tell you so I don't know if you know much about my story but the way that I came into this gift was exactly that real my dad I.   [00:25:26] I love him to death and I go through my first podcast I talk about all the wonderful wonderful beautiful parts of him you know his really his one flaw was women and I caught him cheating on my mom for the first time when I was pretty young in elementary school and I didn't know how or what to do with that information or how to handle that information.   [00:25:50] And then I caught him again in middle school and in middle school again you know you're in a Catch 22 you love your mom you love your dad what do you do. And I ended up feeling in my heart that I was just going to punish him by pushing him away by not talking to him by distancing myself. So I did that all throughout my teenage years my twenties and we always tried to come back together but he'd have one girlfriend and I'd hear about how he had other girlfriends on the side and I was like I can't I can't be apart you know like at some point you got to get it together.   [00:26:29] And when he passed I started hearing from him a month before his family reached out to let me know he was gone and yeah. And I ended up having a visitation dream from him. Maybe six seven months later where he was on the other side and they actually showed me my house on the other side. They were at this big party it was like a welcome home. Julie's back and I could see my dad out of the corner of my eye walking around as I was talking to other friends and family that I didn't know I knew but I knew I knew him in the dream and my dad finally came up to me after what felt like a couple hours and he said well we should talk shouldn't we. And we went outside and there was a big lake outside and the scenery changed to a place we used to go out on a lake as a kid when I was when I was a child and he left me for the first time without us giving his side of the story just vent to him about him for hours on end and he just poured tears out of his eyes like I had never seen before and he said Julie if I could go back and take that all back I would but I can't. And even more than that dream when I woke up I was bawling hysterically when I woke up and that never happens.   [00:28:05] And I knew in my heart that he had been here not as a bad guy not as this flawed soul but he had been here to stir up some stuff so that we all could learn our lessons because he's got four kids we all that different stuff from him we all learned different stuff from him.   [00:28:32] He's got other stepchildren who learned from him as well and that is so right on.   [00:28:39] Here's the part that I can't connect the dots on. OK. As a person who has a community of people listening to them Where is the boundary so that people don't say well they're no bad on the other side I'm just going to go murder these bad people. Oh no. Whatever it might be you know. I don't I don't have that down yet.   [00:29:07] Karma is a bitch.   [00:29:10] Yeah.   [00:29:14] You will pay.   [00:29:17] So you know when you study this like you're talking about and this so fits Fred's lives of the soul and Michael Newton's work of what 7000 I think hypnosis sessions that he did to get this same message when you see recurring patterns.   [00:29:34] So it's like so many people who connect with the other side talk about this being the way that that things are. Again let's zoom up to the 10000 foot perspective of this is a soul growth process. So if you say well yeah there are no rules or judgments or anything on the other side. Well first of all there's gonna be hell to pay on this side. I don't know about you but I would not do well living in a 10 by 10 box for the rest of my life. This doesn't sound appealing to me at all. Not for 10 minutes much less for decades so you know there's there's that built in.   [00:30:14] Is this what I would really want to go do but if even if that didn't move you and you still had that that vile impulse Oh I got to show you something to let me show this.   [00:30:30] This works really well. I got a clue for the folks watching on video. Well we'll show you something here. This is something I've been working on. Nobody knows this. So I'm like.   [00:30:41] You're like the first I have I haven't even done this for my own podcast audience but we're going to let you know so because I mean you asked your journalistic skills are quite sharp so if we think about this from a soul growth perspective and we connect with what all is available when we do grow our soul it becomes such an incredible motivator to me to want to reach those higher levels of consciousness because there is so much magic up there there is so much wonder that we can't even imagine at those higher levels of consciousness that we don't get when we let our humanity get the best of us.   [00:31:32] You know.   [00:31:33] So what I was saying earlier and what you brought up like your dad's role in a sense was to stir stuff up for people so that they could grow.   [00:31:45] And we don't get that in our in our society today in our. I was going to say liberal or progressed you know our forward thinking society doesn't like those challenges doesn't make them that our society doesn't. It's not OK to be one who would stir up for others so that they could forgive. That doesn't resonate today. Right. We're not at that level of consciousness that you can know we like to make stories.   [00:32:14] We like to say oh well he must be really stupid because he lost his job or she must be this because this happened you know we want to apply a story to everything. He's a bad guy because he cheated. You know this story.   [00:32:30] It's all a story. Yeah I went through my transitional period I went through a program that a friend of mine said hey go just go to this it'll change your whole perspective on things that was called the Landmark Forum. And I did that weekend.   [00:32:43] I've done it once and it did.   [00:32:47] And one of the things that you take away from that program is how much we are enveloped in our stories. We make a story up out of everything.   [00:32:57] That's exactly right.   [00:32:59] So here's something that we're working on. This was a work in progress from one of the books that I did with Fred. And this is totally with his blessing. And we were corresponding on it yesterday. And he's like you've got to take this and run with it because this is this is good stuff so what the book was called low levels of energy. OK. So levels of energy by Fred Dodson and then the kind of the companion book that came before that about a decade prior was called power versus force by Dr. David our Hawkins and Dr. Hawkins used this as the basis of one of the largest clinical psychology practices in the country out of Long Island. He passed away in 2012 but left us with this incredible work that basically takes consciousness and puts it on a scale so both authors used the same scale Fred's treatment of the material is completely different Dr Hawkins is more scientific Fred is more practical applicable.   [00:34:01] But basically if you take all of our human emotions all of our human existence and put it on a scale from zero to 1000 let's say the numbers don't mean anything it just is the relativity if you go out and kill somebody that's probably a 20.   [00:34:17] It's down around the area of psychosis depression 50 fear one hundred anger 160 narcissism pride arrogance one ninety.   [00:34:28] Those are all low levels of consciousness so we've come up with this little system that's representing represented by these rings. So I've got four colors of rings. So if you take that all those low levels of consciousness and we'll just this is kind of a maroon color brown color and if you see that but that. So let's say that all of those are here right and then like daily life you know we we get the kids ready we take them to school we go to work we come back we help them with their homework we put them to bed we watch an hour of TV we go to we go to sleep that's that's just like we're just getting by.   [00:35:11] Right.   [00:35:11] Life works not bad not setting any records not you know creating anything not changing the paradigm of the culture but you know not bad we're getting by for those who can't see physically in the video he's got two rings and maroon ring and then he just added with that last statement a red herring on top of it. All right. So then we're going to put on top of that a golden colored ring. All right. So that's now we start to step outside of ourself and we start to put others first. Selfless service if you will we're moving up the scale the scale is is represented by these three ring stacked on top of each other that are different colors but we're moving up or getting higher. So we're growing and when you start to really step out of yourself when you put others first when you are full of joy when you're just happy when you're fun to be around when you give to others we Marjan and I were at a hotel up in Arkansas the other day and walking out there was this guy who was sweeping the floor in front of the door and one of those carpet pad things you know and he was just sweeping that and just getting and he'd go back the other way and somebody walk down the hall Oh thank you for staying at our hotel.   [00:36:30] This was at a Marriott. It was in his hotel I promise you he had known the darn thing right. But he was so proud. Oh thank you for being our guest we can't wait to see you back again. Have a nice day.   [00:36:42] That was that's this kind of that's that's the gold right. You know he's working twelve dollar an hour job up in Arkansas sweeping the floors and hauling the trash out and he's just serving other people. Beautiful. And then when so the final ring is is turquoise colored.   [00:37:01] Those are the pure levels of of unconditional love pure joy peace creativity.   [00:37:12] Think of Malala today is really representing this little girl that was shot in the head by the Taliban and lived. And her story is magnificent. Mother Teresa would have been in that we think of Gandhi you know so just those those areas where we really transcend our humanity because we're in such a different higher level different zone.   [00:37:38] So when you put all those together and you look at those colors that's the scale of consciousness.   [00:37:47] So when you're making that decision now remember we all have choice. This is the thing is at the end of the day nobody's making us do anything more than the visual. When you see those you know look say for the camera but if you're just listening on audio so you've got a maroon ring at the bottom a red ring a gold ring and a turquoise colored ring if you live out of that maroon colored ring you're going to get bad results.   [00:38:16] You're going to get bad results today and you're gonna get bad results on the other side you're going to have to come back and do it again. You want to do a do over.   [00:38:26] Now do you want to take two or three or five because you are stuck in that stubbornness or if you zoom up and you go wow you know and even if we again here for the folks that are not on camera let's just take the golden ring and the turquoise ring if you could live in that level of being loving giving serving helping.   [00:38:58] Not only are you in the paradox the cool paradox is that you feel better when you give out of yourself when you give it away.   [00:39:07] You get and that's built into the system.   [00:39:10] So it's like when we make that shift and then through our free will choice we say I am going to choose to serve somebody and we start to stack that up over decades of our life.   [00:39:29] Wow.   [00:39:31] I mean what you get back from that. So if you live that through five or six decades one of the cool things about being older there are very few. But one of the cool ones is you get the perspective. Wow you don't have as a younger person. You don't see what happened over those four four or five decades. But when you've lived through those four or five decades and you see compounding at work you realize you can compound interest and grow your bank account but you can also compound your karma if you will or you can compound your your energetic part of you and live that out over five or six decades and you have such a wealth of treasure at the end of that line that it's absolutely beautiful. And then you go on to much higher levels.   [00:40:25] There's so much more Julie there's so much more than we see now we could talk about this for so long I could talk about you I'd talk with you for hours.   [00:40:34] Oh there's so much that we don't see in our little boxes in our confined world that is below the tree level. And just when we get up there to these other realms there's so much and and that's my motivation. That's why I choose to do it what I do. Where's the boundary you ask. I don't think there is one. I mean if you break a law you're going to pay for it in our culture. There are some cultures where you can go do that and get away with it. Walk out scot free. Right. And you know so it's like comically you're not going to walk out scot free energetically you're not going to walk out scot free anywhere.   [00:41:13] Yeah.   [00:41:13] And that's what I tell my clients to because when I'm working and all of my sessions you know so many people and even mediums or psychics that I've heard on TV they'll say well on the other side there is no emotion and you don't hear or see people come through with emotion.   [00:41:28] And to me that's not true. One of the things that happens a lot is if somebody passed through suicide they will come through and I will be bawling hysterically in a session because that's the energy that they have on the other side. They're bawling hysterically. They're bringing that emotion through. And what they show me is that you know people who pass that way and there is no bad place on the other side. There's nothing like that. But we do have to go through a life review. On the other side. And that isn't sitting in a movie theater watching our lives on this big screen what it is is actually being in a simulation where we go through where we intentionally hurt somebody else and stepping into the body stepping into the mind of the heart of the other person and feeling our actions and how it hurt that other person which is actually where I think Catholics get the idea of purgatory because it is kind of this middle ground between us that happened but it doesn't take that long for most people to kind of go through. But we do get a much greater understanding it does help us clearer energy before we go through on the other side.   [00:42:49] Have you communicated with people who have either been in the midst of that process or just completed it like and can come back. Well that that you are communicating with like they had just been through that review or they were in that review I'd love to know what they say while they're in the process of that review of the review.   [00:43:10] It says if they take on and they become that other person because they physically have to step fully into that person and forget themselves to be that person in order to feel the way that their own actions in this lifetime hurt that person.   [00:43:31] So see if we're going to do that anyway. Yeah. Why not just do it today. Why not do it right. Right. Right. And I'm holding up the golden ring.   [00:43:42] Why not just choose to go ahead and do it today.   [00:43:45] I took Madonna's Madonna and I are partners but but not married and I took her son to school today just to be golden ring. Just. It's something I normally don't do but. And he's you know teenager whatnot. But I just said Hey it's raining. Would you like a ride you know. Yeah. It's stuff like that.   [00:44:07] It's that connecting with just to be there with somebody else to do something that's not serving you.   [00:44:15] Right. Oh I love that because you know it's so often people will say well what if I don't feel this through meditation or what if I don't feel that they think that they're not good they get to that place that golden ring. Right. But that's not what it's about. It's just about starting where you're at. And everybody has something that they can do from a self selfless point of view.   [00:44:39] So start there. Start with gratitude because everyone can do this every single soul that is here on Earth right now can do this.   [00:44:47] This working on this. We're putting a seminar together on this. Just started writing a book on it. Fred's involved consulted early with this.   [00:44:57] And yeah but the book's going to have your title isn't it. It is your name. Yeah. Is this the first one. I second the second.   [00:45:06] Ok. What was the name of your first book. Filibusters. OK. OK. Because there's more to come. That was coming through when I was praying this morning. They were saying talk about his book.   [00:45:16] Wow. Yeah. Yeah. You're not done here. Tom you've got a lot of stuff coming ahead.   [00:45:23] Yes you're good. You and I are going to talk. All right. All right Kyra. We're going to talk to you if you talk. No.   [00:45:36] That's awesome. And that I told you that I that we communicated about this yesterday. That was the communication was him handing the baton saying no you need to do this full out this one.   [00:45:48] Wow. Wow. Well they are so proud of you. Yeah. And I got to tell you too your mom and your dad are stepping forward and who is the younger boy that's on the other side.   [00:46:04] Not.   [00:46:08] Not from mom and dad. But there was a miscarriage.   [00:46:11] Yeah. Yeah.   [00:46:12] And that's. And and that soul has shown up several times by the way.   [00:46:16] Ok. As male. No. OK. First time I've heard male OK. Because they're bringing him forward and your mom. I don't know if there was a special bond between you and mom or you were kind of like.   [00:46:32] Because she comes through with tears in her eyes just saying how proud she is of you and just how how much you've grown.   [00:46:43] And she just she's making me feel it in my heart. Yeah well yeah and dad too.   [00:46:54] But she comes through with kind of some tears in her eyes so interesting because mom was the source of a lot of my challenge. She was my little soul that came here to rub me.   [00:47:09] Yes. Gave me lots of opportunities that I missed a lot of them.   [00:47:17] She says she did a good job.   [00:47:19] It seems that great job she played her role well thanks Mom. You were perfect. Yeah. Dad my Dad was an angel. I mean if you were to see him you'd see wings on his back. He was just an amazing amazing soul. And my mom was the source of my challenges. And you know this is so funny my brother and I are less than two years apart and he perceived that environment. He he knew of the challenges. He was very aware of the challenges not to say that it didn't affect him too but he responded to her differently.   [00:47:52] See I responded out of my paradigm what I brought in. He responded out of his paradigm. So here we were not ten feet apart. Growing up and and yet had these two different perspectives and outcomes and how it affected our souls differently and everybody has that story right. Everybody has that story but that's where we are so unique and so different. And yeah that mom would say that I I was in the room after she passed and now or when she passed and knowing what I know now of studying this material and being very comfortable with her soul transitioning was able to talk to her my brother and I in fact and his wife. We were the three together with her and were letting her know that it was OK and we would be OK and we would take the mantle and run with it from here and that she could let go and didn't need to hang on and I mean it was just hours before she left after that but but they left the room and knowing that her soul was probably still there. Knowing that I was in the room by myself and I sat down with her and had a conversation that I know she heard me and it was the conversation that I could never have with her here and it was kind of a clearing and it was a letting her soul know that it was OK I get it I get what happened here and be free.   [00:49:18] Godspeed and I love you.   [00:49:20] Yeah forgiveness really treat your heart right but you're released. We're good we're good here. Yeah yeah yeah. Beautiful that's beautiful beautiful beautiful. You know on Instagram the other day one of I just somebody popped down and they asked a question and I think it would be a good question. I've got my own kind of idea and how I'd respond but I just want to see what you think about this.   [00:49:46] So she said you know we have our subconscious. We have people like medium psychics intuitive Angel readers. How do you know that it to you hearing from the other side you hearing from angels or maybe like your girlfriend. How does she say that she knows them and just not our subconscious. These experiences that we had that we're just recalling.   [00:50:15] Got it. Got it. That's a great question and so many people also ask how do I know that it's intuition and not just my monkey mind. Right. You can bring it down to the earthly plane like even if we're not connecting with somebody on the other side. How do I know that this isn't just my Chatterbox up there going nuts that I really am hearing from divine source internally as intuition. I think it kind of comes from the same same type of answer to this for me.   [00:50:42] Now I know for Mirjana It would be that she would say very distinct feeling that she gets when these communications are coming it's like like no other. She has had it all of her life. So this is not anything new or unique for her so she knows that voice. Yep. So just on that. What is that. How is it for you.   [00:51:09] You know I've had several different experiences throughout my life. I didn't just hear my dad but in my early twenties. I had an experience that I've talked about with my listeners before where I heard I was actually out with this woman that I just randomly met on a business trip in Seattle. I met her on the street and spent the entire day with her. And at the middle of like talking after seven hours she just automatically went in to speaking in tongue.   [00:51:42] Wow. And she I remember thinking what language is this because this is not a language that I've heard on Earth before.   [00:51:52] This is not South Chicago I'm listening to hear it no no.   [00:51:57] And then I remember this analogy and it almost did feel like like a fog that you could see.   [00:52:06] And I remember hearing now this was at a very hard point in my life where my heart was just more heavy than it had ever been before. And I remember hearing it's okay you're gonna be okay. I'm here with you I love you I'm taking care of you everything's gonna be OK.   [00:52:28] And it just kept repeating and I remember knowing that that was an angelic that there were angels there that that was the Holy Spirit and that energy is something that when then I started hearing from my dad later on started working with different Reiki masters different spiritual teachers learning how to develop my spiritual get more. You're right. It's the energy of it. I know when I'm connected to it I know when I'm connected to the other side. And since I was the little girl one of my earliest memories is my dad telling me listen to your heart listen to your heart there's a little Julie there's a little whisper inside your heart and it's gonna talk to you and you have to listen to that whisper no matter what your mind says. And so I remember doing that since I was a little girl while always listening to that little whisper.   [00:53:26] And so I've trained myself since that time to understand what's my mind what's my heart.   [00:53:32] And that the thoughts the messages that come through from the other side they don't come through our ego mind. They come through the heart gut intuition.   [00:53:43] That's cool.   [00:53:44] That's beautiful yeah yeah.   [00:53:47] I had a very interesting experience to kind of flex my intuitive muscles. I was in Colorado for the last three years and there was a hiking trail that went up the side of a mountain literally right across the street from where I was staying and I went up there having done five or six or seven years of this work but still didn't have that touch with that voice and actually it started the first funny story on this is I went up there is a flat lander and started skiing and skiing kind of snuck up on me and I just love snow skiing. Now I think it's phenomenal. I just love it. But I you know I had I didn't have a system I would typically go every now and then would go skiing and hadn't been on a ski trip for quite a while and now I'm living in a ski town.   [00:54:44] So I was going up the chair one Sunday and this was really clear so I think this kind of is the same type of thing I was going to take a picture with my phone. So I had it in a pocket inside my jacket. So I reached to unzip the jacket pulled it down about a foot and I heard as I reached my hand and I heard this really clear don't and I was like Oh come on I'll hold on tight you know I'll I'll grip it I'll be careful.   [00:55:16] So I I pulled my glove I pulled my glove off by sticking it under my left arm. So here's my. And   [00:55:23] I reached in with my right hand got my phone took my picture slid it back in the jacket zipped it up so see it's all good and then I went to put my glove back on it now and oh so that was like oh wow I need to know more about this I need to learn more of how this works.   [00:55:47] So on the hiking trail I started to get in touch with that voice and it was always usually met with arguing from the monkey mind from the ego self.   [00:55:58] Yeah. So what I would do is pick a point on the hiking trail of like that tree up there.   [00:56:05] Okay. Let's just walk up to that tree where ego self mind would you be willing to just be quiet long enough we'll go up there and see what comes through I wouldn't take five steps. Run run run run run run run run run. Right here come back and I'd stop and I'd say wait a minute we had an agreement. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah yeah. Okay. All right. That tree just that tree. Okay. And then that tree turned into you know around that corner up there and then that turned into farther down the trail and then that turned into literally I could step on that hiking trail and the ego mind would go quiet and couldn't wait to hear from that still small voice. Yeah. And we'd go on for a long time and then sometimes it would want to question you know it's like Okay throw me a question water put about this or that should I write a book. Well you know and then and then.   [00:56:59] But then that voice would kick in and and I think it comes with an assurance and a piece and a flow you know just a you know that that's what's as you said well deep inside that little small voice problem is we always want to counter it with our monkey mind who is the alpha dog on the block. It's the one that wants to be in control. Yes. So we. Right. Right right right.   [00:57:27] And what I did again a visual here how can we create the audio part of this.   [00:57:34] So like if you like put your put your hand up like cup your hand up and like like you're gonna swat a fly that's below you on the desk OK you've got your hand you're ready. The fly is going to swing by. Boom you're gonna whack it right.   [00:57:50] So that's our ego mind and down here now be the little fly on the desk you know now down here is that little still small voice and it just whispers and it's really soft.   [00:58:06] And you know another point on that Julie is we have to be in quiet environments I think to hear it more and our world today. Sir dad on our world today is so full of noises everywhere. There's a television on and every waiting room and restaurant and airport and everywhere you go. And we can't be quiet.   [00:58:28] So once you get quiet you'll hear that voice more but what happens then is the hand that you've got cocked up here and ready to go whack it hits the.   [00:58:38] It knocks it back down and into its place. Because I'm the boss.   [00:58:44] So what I did is I just shifted roles now to where the little still small voice is the hand up above not ready to squash anything but where I brought that monkey mind into submission to where.   [00:59:01] Now when that still small voice speaks the role of the monkey mind is all okay.   [00:59:09] How do I do that.   [00:59:11] So when the little voice says write a book about the four rings then it's not argue we're not arguing there's no point counterpoint.   [00:59:20] We're not contradicting it. It's okay. Well I better watch program am I going to write it in word or Scrivener or you know it's well what's the first chapter going to be. How's the structure going to be the outline and you know that's where the arms start taking the baby steps that lead to the bigger steps that lead to the whole thing.   [00:59:38] You take start taking the actions and then along the way you stop and you listen well maybe that's not the right direction for this chapter. Oh what is. Oh okay. Got it. Off we go.   [00:59:49] Yeah.   [00:59:51] Yeah. It's a wonderful way to live.   [00:59:53] It is a wonderful way to live and see beautiful.   [00:59:58] You know you are asking to again I mean you have to make the shift up to these higher planes of being back to our little rings you have to get up to the golden turquoise ring because when you live from that perspective then you're just waiting for the next piece of instruction. Oh Fred had a great analogy story in a couple of his books and it's a really easy simple story but it's just like think about our life as a river.   [01:00:26] There's a point where we get in and there's a point when we get out and we're in a boat and we're given an oar.   [01:00:32] There's our choice and we float down the river and as he says so many times we want to paddle upstream.   [01:00:43] Or we want to drag the boat over to the bank and get out because there's a better River over on the other side. Right.   [01:00:49] If we could just get over there that's the river and I realized when I was narrating that story I just had to stop because it was like man that's how I lived my whole life. Yeah.   [01:01:02] Was paddling upstream all the time or cross currents are always fighting the flow. But when we just used the ore to gently bump us along the way and we just get out in the middle of the river and start flowing down the river. Oh there's a rock up there. Okay let's just move to the left a little bit.   [01:01:21] Got it.   [01:01:23] There's a nice flat spot of the river. Let's go over there and have a nice picnic lunch and just take a break.   [01:01:30] Got some rapids coming OK. We're gonna have some fun here right.   [01:01:33] Well let's go shoot the rapids.   [01:01:36] Life picks up it slows down. We have challenges in the way. Maybe there's an alligator in the river. We have to go around him. You don't have to go right toward him. Paddle over there and ask him how he's doing. You don't have to go forth with him right. Just paddle around. So it's a it's a beautiful analogy of how we just get into the flow and when you get into the flow. Life will take you where you're supposed to be just like the river will take you down to the to the place where you're going to get out.   [01:02:09] Life will get you there and it will all be good and well and fine I was just texting my mom because she keeps sending these texts and I keep hearing these things in the background. She she'll go through and she'll send ten at one time say her mom or my mom. Be sure you're talking to the right Mom. Yes totally. Oh my goodness. Thomas this was just the best. Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us. And I always asked my guests who do you think I should interview next on this podcast or who do you know who I should interview.   [01:02:50] Fred Dodson. OK my mentor. Absolutely fantastic. Oh.   [01:02:56] Eyes up and you know what time Thomas for people who want to connect with you online learn more about you. Where can they find you. You on your Web site and social media.   [01:03:06] Well thank you for that. So on Facebook we have a little podcast listeners group it's called subconscious mind mastery podcast listeners on Facebook and you can ask to join that group and we put up episode information and some behind the scenes cool stuff and that kind of thing. So there's that. And then just hop over to the podcast at subconscious mind mastery on iTunes and Spotify and Stitcher and all those good places where you can listen and my email is Thomas at subconscious mind mastering dot.com.   [01:03:39] Perfect. Well thank you again so much for being a guest on our show today.   [01:03:43] We are very appreciative that you would do this for us.   [01:03:46] Jill you are amazing and I love what you're doing. Thank you   [01:04:02] My dear friends. You don't know what an incredible huge huge huge blessing it is to this podcast when you write a glowing positive review for us. It truly helps us get the best experts on the show. I know this might sound a little complex but if you send me an email after you post a glowing positive review here I will put your name into a monthly drawing to win a free 30 minute Angel message session with me and it may just be broadcast on this show at a later date. Your name will be kept in the drawing every month until you win when you email me. Don't forget to include your name contact information and positive review. I hope you win   [01:04:45] Tune in for a new episode next week where I'll share tools and guidance that can help you fall in love with your life and start living it from a place of peace bliss and ease.   [01:04:56] Thank you so much for listening to the angels and awakening podcast. Until next time know in your heart just how deeply you're loved on the other side and open up your heart to all of the random unexpected blessings that your angels and your spirit team are trying to bring into your life right now.   [01:05:19] Disclaimer this podcast provides general information and discussion about energy healing spiritual topics and related subjects the conversations and other content provided in this podcast and in any linked materials are not intended and should not be construed as medical psychological and or professional advice. If the listener or any other person has a medical concern he or she should consult with an appropriately licensed physician or other health care professional. Never make any medical or health related decision based in whole or even in part on anything contained in the angels in awakening podcast or in any of our linked materials. You should not rely on any information contained in this podcast and related materials and making medical health related or other decisions. You should consult a licensed physician or appropriately credentialed health care worker in your community in all matters relating to your health. If you think you may have a medical emergency call your doctor or nine one one immediately. Again Angel messages energy healing and the information you receive here does not constitute legal psychological medical business relationship or financial advice. Do not take any of the advice given and any angels in awakening podcasts or sessions in lieu of medical psychological legal financial or general professional advice. Please note angels in awakening is a podcast produced by Chicago energy healing a company with locations in Wheaton, Illinois and Naperville, Illinois.     KEY WORDS: God, Universe, Source, Spirit, Guardian Angel, Angel, Angel Message, Angel Messages, Angel Reader, Angel Readers, Angel Whisper, Angels, Anxiety, Archangel, Archangels, Arch Angel, Archangel Gabriel, Archangel Michael, Archangel Raphael, Ask Angels, Attraction, Law of Attraction, The Secret, Oprah, Super Soul Sunday, Soul Sunday, Aura, Aura Field, Author, Awakening, Being, Bliss, Bible, Bible Verse, Bliss and Grit, Buddhism, Catholic, Chakra, Chalene, the Chalene Show, Realitv, Change Your Life, Chicago, Naperville, Wheaton, Chicagoland, Christian, Christianity, Church, Pastor, Preacher, Priest, Co Create, cocreate, Consciousness, Spirit Guide, counselor, therapist, Dax Shepard, Death, Depression, Died, Grief, Divine, Doctor, Dream, Angel Therapy, Gabrielle Bernstein, Ego, Empath, Energy, Energy Healing, Enlightened, Zen, Enlightenment, Enneagram, Fabulous, Faith Hunter, Family, Feelings, Goal Digger, Jenna Kutcher, Ancient wisdom, Brandon Beachum, girl boss, badass, life coach, sivana, good, gratitude, great, school of greatness, greatness, the school of greatness, lewis howes, the Charlene show, rise podcast, Rachel Hollis, Tony Robbins, the Tony Robbins Podcast, guardian angels, guides, happy, happier, happiness, Hay House, summit, hayhouse, healed, healing, health, heart, heart math, heaven, help, high vibration, higher self, highest self, holy, I AM, illness, inner peace, inspiration, intention, intuitive, jewish, joy, Julia Treat, Julie Jancius, learn, lesson, light worker, Louise Hay, Love, Marriage, Magical, Manifest, Manifesting, Marie Kondo, Master Class, Meditate, Meditation, Medium, Mediumship, the Long Island Medium, the Hollywood Medium, Message, Metaphysics, ACIM, A Course In Miracles, Method, Mindful, Mindfulness, Miracles, Mom, Motherhood, Naturopath, New Age, Passed Away, Past Lives, Peace, Positive, Power, Pray, Prayer, Prosperity, Psychic, Psychic Medium, Psychology, Purpose, Quantum Physics, Life Purpose, Ray of Light, Reiki, Relax, Religion, Robcast, Sadness, Depression, Sahara Rose, School, Science, Shaman Durek, Shift, Sleep, Soul, Source, Spirit, Spirit Team, Spiritual, Spiritual Awakening, Spiritual Gifts, Spirituality, Stress, Synchronicity, Tara Williams, Tarot, Teacher, Thinking, Thoughts, Transcended State, Transcendence, Universe, Vibration, Vortex, Wellness, Worry, Worship, Yoga, Zen, Afterlife. Copyright: Chicago Energy Healing

https://youtu.be/cbhz_hCTXXk Looking for the right fly rod? Look here! - http://bit.ly/2akpNBx Check out the video version here - https://youtu.be/cbhz_hCTXXk #AskNorth40 - Episode 28 This week, Dennis from Colorado Springs, CO asked, “How do I choose a fly rod?” So Fred, from the Great Falls fly shop, took us out to cast a few rods on a secluded pond near town. It was quite the adventure to get there. Then we chatted with a world champion distance caster and founder of Echo Fly Rods, Tim Rajeff. NORTH40.com NORTH40FLYSHOP.com BLOG - bit.ly/1P3eyvb SHOP - bit.ly/1P3eqf6 SUBSCRIBE - goo.gl/4EMwE9 FACEBOOK - www.facebook.com/north40outfitters/?fref=ts INSTAGRAM - www.instagram.com/north40outfitters/ SNAPCHAT - north40life