Podcasts about matthew you

Have you been looking for ways to improve your owners' experiences as property management clients?  In this episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull sit down with Matthew Kaddatz from Appfolio to talk about elevating the owner experience in property management. You'll Learn [01:35] Getting started in the property management industry [05:18] Improving relationships with owners and investors [10:24] What does your ideal client look like? [18:31] Why you get stuck doing things you hate [26:25] How elevating the owner experience helps you Tweetables “Once property management gets you, you're stuck. You're not going anywhere.” “I think one of the biggest mistakes property managers make by not having clarity on who their ideal customer is they try to get everybody.” “‘No' is often better than ‘yes' if you're being careful and focused.” “I don't think that you can really figure out a lot about your clients and what they truly want, what's really important to them, if you're unclear on what you truly want.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: I think one of the biggest mistakes property managers make by not having clarity on who their ideal customer is, is they try to get everybody. Then they're taking on a lot of accidental investors and they churn out like after a year.  [00:00:12] Welcome DoorGrowers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you're interested in growing in business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrower. [00:00:28] DoorGrower property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, along with Sarah Hull, my wife, co-owner and COO of DoorGrow. [00:01:11] Now let's get into the show. All right. Today's guest. We have Matthew Kaddatz from Appfolio. So Matthew, welcome to the show.  [00:01:22] Matthew: Yeah. Thanks for having me excited to be here.  [00:01:25] Jason: So we have not yet had somebody from AppFolio, but we have a ton of clients that use AppFolio and we've heard great things about it. The perception has always been, it's the Mac of the property management software out there. [00:01:37] So, Matthew, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about you? How did you get into property management into this industry? And and you know, what do you do at Appfolio?  [00:01:48] Matthew: Yeah. So, I've been in property management pretty much my whole professional career. I studied computer science in college, realized I didn't want to be behind a computer all day and knew some developers developing some land, and they were looking to turn over the management and there weren't a lot of local operators. And I was like, "Oh, I could do it." You know, naive, 22, and 2006, right? So that all thought the best way to make money is real estate. It's 2006, everyone was making money right at the brothiest point in the industry. [00:02:23] And I went down and started the property management company. These developers were my first contract and I ended up really liking the business, building the business. I grew it in the local area, did property management, community association management, a little bit of short term rentals, small, little, mostly second home market. And had a fun time growing it. Ultimately, I ended up selling it to an outfit out of Texas called Associa, and was looking to do something else and found my way to AppFolio.  [00:02:58] Jason: All right. Now you are then, based on the numbers you shared, you're about to hit the big 4-0, right? [00:03:05] I am. And did you ever think as a kid when you turned 40 someday that you're going to be doing property management stuff? [00:03:13] Matthew: No, never. Even when I sold my business, I stayed around for two years and was looking for something else. I looked hard to get out of the industry. I wanted something different and the furthest I could get was a technology company that provides software for the industry. [00:03:31] And you know, I joke around once property management gets you, you're stuck. You're not going anywhere else.  [00:03:37] Jason: You know, a lot of property managers joke about it and they complain and they throw out memes like about drinking wine is solving their problems, you know, and stuff like this. But I fell in love with the industry because I love how, 1. MRR is a beautiful business model. Yes. It's monthly residual revenue, right? It's the ultimate business recurring revenue, monthly recurring revenue. And I love the residual income of a coaching business and property management is similar. [00:04:07] And so what I love about the property management industry is that it is it's similar to me, right? The people that I get to serve and they're my people. They're a little bit nerdy sometimes. They tend to like technology to some degree, or they have to at least use it. And they they're entrepreneurial and they're not just the sales oriented person that's just hunting and chasing the next deal they want to build. That recurring revenue.  [00:04:35] Matthew: You know, the SAS business model, like technology, like AppFolio is very similar as well. The parallels and just how we think about our customers and how our customers think about their customers are wildly similar, which I think gives us some insight into just how to build great software. [00:04:54] But I too am obviously attracted to the business model. It's a really good business model. You're not always hunting for that big fish to get or whatnot. You have predictable revenue and that gives you some comfort to take a step back and kind of think about what I truly love is like strategic priorities. [00:05:16] Jason: Yeah, it creates some stability. So the topic we're going to get into today is elevating the owner experience. And so, where should we start with this? [00:05:27] Matthew: Yeah, good question. So I've been my job at AppFolio is to really focus on small business property managers and make sure we're building product for them. And I've been doing this for two and a half, almost three years now here. I've had other jobs AppFolio, but this recent gig has been really focused on the small business property managers and you know, six to eight months into the job, I realized the owner of the property is just so fundamental to how the SMB industry works, which is less true as you go high up market into like large multifamily. The relationship between the property manager and the property owner is just so important, and I think really understanding that dynamic from my perspective, like helped us think through how we're going to innovate and build software to make those relationships better to leverage software. But what got me more excited was just learning how great property managers think about this, how they think about acquiring these people, how they think about onboarding these people, how they think about retaining these owners and how the group of property owners, it's not a homogenous group, right? Like there are different subsets. [00:06:50] A person who owns five four plexes is going to think and operate different than a person who had to leave town for work and is giving their house over to property manager because they had to leave town for work for a period of time. So just understanding the dynamics there is really important. [00:07:13] And the great property managers, I think do that well, but it's amazing how many people don't think carefully about who their clients are, what their interests are and how diverse they can be.  [00:07:24] Jason: What do you think are some of the most common mistakes people are making? In the small business category with their owners? [00:07:32] Matthew: I think they're pushing to either one of two polarizing extremes, right? Like one size fits all, my services must fit for everyone in which like they don't because it's not a homogenous group or, I will be everything to everyone which doesn't scale. And that's probably the more dangerous thing. I think property management tends to attract people great at customer service who like to say yes and hate to say no, and it's hard to not be every thing to everyone. If that's just sort of your disposition that got you to be very successful at providing great customer service, you can't grow a business that way. [00:08:15] You can't scale a business that way. Once you have to hire people to manage owner relationships.  [00:08:20] Jason: Yeah, we see these problems as well. The one size fits all usually relates very simply to how property managers are pricing. Like everybody's like, "we'll just charge 10 percent or we'll just charge a flat fee." [00:08:32] And one of the things that we teach is this three tier hybrid pricing model where you're focused that psychologically on at least three different types of buyers based on their motivation or based on their pain psychologically so that it's not just one size fits all. It's tailored towards the pain threshold when it comes to spending and it's tailored towards, you know, the level of service or safety and certainty when it comes to like what they're hoping to spend money on. [00:08:58] And so that's really interesting. And then you mentioned: don't be everything to everyone. So I have this slide and one of my slides in my pitch deck says "you're not Burger King." " your way right away," right? And so "don't be Burger King" is what it says. So, and the opposite is like to be the lighthouse, right? [00:09:16] The lighthouse is guides, but it doesn't move, right? It has boundaries and standards.  [00:09:22] Matthew: Yeah. So many great operators have done too much of everything to everyone and they get to what, 300 ish units and they can't figure out how to get beyond. They just can't figure out how to scale because. It actually costs a bit of money to go from 300 to 600 units. [00:09:40] You have to like reorganize a bit.  [00:09:42] Jason: That's funny. We call the stage between two to 400 units, the second sand trap.  [00:09:49] Matthew: Yeah.  [00:09:49] Jason: Interesting. It's basically the swamp of success. We call it the team sand trap because usually it's because staffing costs are so high at this stage, they end up stuck and it's usually they think they need more processes. [00:10:02] But what they actually need are better team members.  [00:10:04] Matthew: Yeah, and I would argue higher degree of focus. Yeah, the way I like think about my customers is I get very clear on who they are and what they care about. So, you know, AppFolio is a large company. [00:10:19] We have lots of customers and as much as we'd love them to be homogenous, like all the same property managers are very diverse group of small businesses. So it's really important for me to understand the profile of business that I'm solving for what type of product and service are we building for that specific profile? So much so that I want to be so intimate with that profile of customer that if I meet them, it's easy for me to have a conversation with them. I know what their common pains and challenges are. I know what they care about. Like I could talk to them for two hours and they were like, "Oh, it felt like I've known you forever." That's how like close I want to understand their types of businesses. [00:11:04] And I think that's similar for property managers as they reach out to different types of owners. So you have accidental landlords that care about something very different than an like mom and pop investor that's trying to grow a real estate portfolio. And depending on your market might depend on which one of those or both of those you focus on. [00:11:26] But having a degree of focus and on that specific buyer or owner that you fit best for is really important to scale because then you can build systems and processes around that. You can build what you mentioned earlier, pricing and packaging around those people. And you're not trying to do everything for everyone. [00:11:49] You're focused on solving the needs of. A specific like group of people. They, I think it's Seth Godin who talks about a thousand true fans. And I think his point is to be very successful in life, you just need to have a thousand people that really love what you're doing and want to pay you to keep doing it. [00:12:09] You think about it, like people are looking for massive scale, but you can actually have an incredibly successful business just by solving the needs of a thousand people.  [00:12:19] Jason: So when you said be everything to everyone, I was immediately thinking, "Oh yeah, some property managers just like are doormats." [00:12:25] They're trying to do everything. What you're talking about, I think is also super powerful, which is this, having this, a higher degree of focus, which you said. And I was thinking we'll focus on what, right? And you're talking about like really getting clear on their avatar, like really getting clear on who they want, what their ideal customer looks like. [00:12:42] Sarah does a lot of work right now with our clients in our rapid revamp program, focusing specifically on this.  [00:12:49] Sarah: Well, I think one of the things we do and actually we're going to be getting into that in a couple of weeks right now, what we're focused on is figuring out their why and their business why. [00:12:59] And I don't think that you can really figure out a lot about your clients and what they truly want, what's really important to them, if you're unclear on what you truly want. It's like that saying, like if you can't love yourself, you also can't love another person, so don't get into a relationship. It's kind of like that. [00:13:20] So if you're unclear about what you're doing and why you're doing it. And why... the big thing is, why does it even matter? Then if you can't answer that question and feel really solid in that answer, then you're never going to be able to figure that out about other people either. Because if you can't start with yourself you're never really going to absorb the information the way that you need to in order to create a really powerful relationship with a client. [00:13:47] Jason: Yeah. Powerful. If you get into a relationship with somebody and they have more clarity on what they want than you do, they win. Totally. You are giving up what you want because you just never got clear enough on it. We all have things we want. It's built into us. Like we have desires. But a lot of us aren't willing to just want things like the, a book I read recently on 10x is easier than 2x kind of talks about this a little bit on the audio book. [00:14:15] They were talking about wanting and how important it is to want, but society, religion, everything kind of conditions us that, "well, you don't need that." And that's what we always hear. "You don't need that. What do you need that for? What do you need that for? Why do you need a house?" [00:14:29] Matthew: You know, I think about what I've noticed is a common theme of the skills that got you here aren't going to get you there. And, what I mean by that is like a lot of people do fall into property management by accident. [00:14:42] Yes. Yeah. I, for one, can definitely relate to building a business that tried to do everything for everyone. And that helped me get a foothold into the market. It helped me build a reputation of a doer. I was really successful at creating customers who really liked me. But I sold the business before I ever learned to scale it. [00:15:04] Effectively. I've learned those scaling skills working in a software company but I've had to go from highly successful doer to slowing down, thinking strategically, getting to the why and being careful about choices and realizing like "no" is often better than "yes" if you're being careful and focused. [00:15:28] And I think that set of skills is, at least for me, it was incredibly hard to go from doer to strategy is kind of how I talk about it or think about it. And that is how you get a business from working very successfully, but working 60 hours a week to growing. And maybe you're still working 60 hours a week, but you're not unclogging a toilet because you can't get ahold of a maintenance person and you have a plunger in the back of your truck or whatever, you know, you're building systems and procedures to allow things to grow sustainably.  [00:16:09] Jason: Yeah, there's a really good book. We've had the author on the show and he's spoken to one of our conferences. [00:16:14] Mike Michalowicz wrote a book called The Pumpkin Plan in which he talks about this analogy of growing a business is akin to like growing prize winning pumpkins in a pumpkin patch. One of the principles is it's impossible to grow the business that you want if you plant the wrong seed. You cannot grow a prize winning pumpkin if you plant a pumpkin pie pumpkin for example. It's just not going to be big enough. Right? And I think you'd mentioned accidental investors. I think one of the biggest mistakes property managers make by not having clarity on who their ideal customer is they try to get everybody. Then they're taking on a lot of accidental investors and they churn out like after a year. [00:16:52] Right. And churn is it's impossible to outpace with adding more doors and growth, a bad churn rate. That's really a grind. Like that's brutal and painful. And it actually takes less work to work with 10 year buy and hold investors, less work to convince them to use you, less work to do stuff versus you know, working with accidental investors. [00:17:14] And so if a business builds a business off of the back of accidental investors, they're building a business that has a high churn rate, the MRR model gets destroyed, and it's a grind, and their business will more likely fail or stay stagnant for years.  [00:17:31] Matthew: That makes total sense. What I think about too is like, how do I build software tools that help the property managers elevate the conversations they're having with their intentional investors, mom and pop investors, or how do they convert an accidental investor into a more active investor? Like How do we help them show property performance and move the conversation beyond the like three bids we got for the last maintenance issue to what's the overall longterm value of this property and what type of return should it produce? And what's your ideal investment, what types of returns are you looking for? Does this asset actually fit what you're looking for? because property managers, they could underwrite markets better than anyone else can in terms of property investment. [00:18:30] Jason: And I think they're connected to reality. You know what actually works and they know which things need to be improved or change on a property to get the best rent rate. They like, they know all this. They're the best equipped to handle investors, period.  [00:18:44] Matthew: And they're stuck having these, like, what arguably are low level, like not important conversations around, "do we like this maintenance bid or that maintenance bid or like the tenant paid three days late. Are you sure we should renew the lease?" Like, like stuff that's like fairly insignificant for the overall, like performance of the assets.  [00:19:06] Jason: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Like big focus on the minuscule things that really aren't that significant or that important. And a lot of times it's, they've just set up a relationship that involves way too much communication. Just unnecessary and irrelevant. And then I think that's just has goes to setting boundaries. I mean, Sarah was able to set amazing boundaries when she ran her property management company, like her stats and metrics were ridiculous from what I've seen inside thousands of property management companies. [00:19:37] And so, I mean, she had like 60 percent profit margin, 260 doors, C class properties and ran it remotely part time with one part time person boots on the ground. Like it's insane. And then we see clients that are like the complete opposite. They're like working like a dog with 50 units and like stuck in the first sand trap. [00:19:57] Sarah: I hear them say like, "I have 37 and I work like 58 hours a week." I don't even know what you're doing. What are you doing? How?  [00:20:03] Matthew: I can relate to that.  [00:20:05] Sarah: I don't understand what you're doing. I don't get it.  [00:20:08] Jason: The testament to having a really sharp operator in a business. She makes us a lot more efficient. So, so how does Appfolio help with all of this? [00:20:17] So you've mentioned you know, having some clarity on the customer and, you know, getting clear on who you want. How is Appfolio software facilitating these owner relationships?  [00:20:29] Matthew: Yeah, our main channel is the owner portal that we have, right? That's the main channel that we can build technology in that allow property managers to communicate better with their owners. [00:20:44] So we've been making a lot of investments to bring property performance into the owner portal in and visualize it via dashboards to give more insight to the property owner about how the property is performing. I think the first problem that we solved rather successfully based upon customer feedback is how can I get data to my owners so they stop calling me about things that are low value and relatively trivial? [00:21:16] So like getting all of that, like did they pay their rent on time? Approving maintenance work orders, like simple things that most of the time can be just a click of a button and happen via technology that's been like, now we're looking at like, what are other ways we can help visualize the performance of the property so that property managers can, if they want, have what I would call like a more asset management conversation as opposed to a like operational conversation. [00:21:49] What I believe is going to continue to be true is there's going to be more consolidation of single family, and there's going to be less accidental landlords over time and more people that are actually looking for real returns on their assets. And so property managers are going to have to learn how to have asset management type conversations which talk about cash on cash return, IRR, those types of things that might sound intimidating. [00:22:22] They're really not that complicated if you spend some time learning them. We basically want to empower our customers to have those conversations easier and try to be thought leaders for the real estate investing space, which they serve and typically are their best customers.  [00:22:40] Jason: Yeah, I love that. [00:22:42] Sarah: So the, I feel like our ROI calculator does a really good job of that. And that's something that's new. So most people have no idea what that is. because we just rolled it out. But we gave early access to some people who had attended an in person event last month with with us. And they all really loved it. [00:23:02] But what I think I like the most about it is a lot of property managers, they have great knowledge. They have great understanding and they have great data. Sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes there's a little bit of a gap. When an investor or there's a little bit of an like just the clench, right? [00:23:20] When an investor, like a really savvy investor calls, any property management owner and says, "Hey, you know, I'm looking for, you know, properties with X cap rate," or, you know, I'm, you know, looking to get this kind of right. And sometimes they're like, "Oh, I don't know how to approach this conversation. I just don't. Maybe I know some of the data and I just don't have all of the data. But I think our ROI calculator really helps with that because it kind of breaks down. You just enter it and it's really easy. You can get it from the MLS. So literally anyone can do it. You just, you don't even have to be a real estate agent. You just pull the data from the MLS. And there are certain things you might need a property manager's guidance on things like, you know, how much might the rehab take and how much is market rent for this property or this area. [00:24:11] And from there, it'll show you, you know, does this property cash flow well? And what kind of tax benefits do you get from owning and holding the property? Because everyone, I think when they think about real estate investing, they think, Oh, it's cash flow. It's not always about the cash flow. There's so many other ways to actually make money in real estate. [00:24:37] And cash flow is a small little chunk of the pie. So I think the ROI calculator really helps empower property managers to have these really great deep conversations with realtors and with investors and do so confidently, not just, "Oh, well, I think this will be a good property to invest in, or I feel like this is probably a good..." [00:25:03] We know because now we have the data and now it just comes down to: do the numbers work or not?  [00:25:10] Matthew: Yeah. What you're talking about sounds really familiar to what I call like underwriting. And that's really common in multifamily. Every single multifamily operator or investor underwrites a property before acquisition so that they have a pro forma. [00:25:28] They know how it's going to operate and that will happen more in single family over time. It's just been such a fragmented market that is less mature, but the returns and yields are higher. And that's why you have invitation homes and other big, large owners that own nationally in this single family space, because if you can figure out how to buy in a market that's working, has the right fundamentals and is working, can get quite a good return. And so, yeah my belief is everyone in this space needs to learn how to have these conversations. And our part is to build as much technology as we can to make it easier for people to navigate. [00:26:16] What I view is a world that will continue to change and mature and get more sophisticated over time.  [00:26:25] Jason: Well, love it. I think to wrap this up, I think it's really an interesting thought to, you know, when people are picking property management software, I don't think the owner portal is at the top of their list. [00:26:36] I don't think it's their main focus. They're like, "how is this for me? How is this for me?" Instead of the person that's going to pay them, you know? And so I think this is an interesting take or an interesting concept that Appfolio is placing some attention to focus on. You know, optimizing the owner portal and maybe innovating there to improve the owner's experience, which in turn will benefit the property manager and hopefully help them retain clients longer or showcase the value maybe depending on how you develop it, even convince accidentals to turn into buy and hold long term investors, you know, like, because they can see some numbers and some stats and go, "why would I like give this up?" [00:27:14] But I think it's an interesting concept and And it also adds some validation to our ROI calculator that we brought to the industry to, so, well, Matthew, it's been great having you on the show. How can people find out more about Appfolio and any parting words for our listeners? [00:27:29] Matthew: Yeah, go to our website. I'm also pretty available on Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn. So look me up. Hopefully my name's in the show notes, Matthew Kaddatz at appfolio.com is where we got. I love having conversations with property managers about just what they're experiencing in the business. So always happy to have a conversation with anyone. [00:27:50] Thank you both for your time. Really appreciated the conversation. Excited what you guys are up to. Sounds like there's some overlap and parallel, which is always a good thing.  [00:27:59] Jason: Well, awesome. Great having you on the show. Thanks Matthew for being here. All right. So if you are a property management entrepreneur, you're wanting to grow your business and you are interested in that ROI calculator that Sarah mentioned, make sure to reach out.  [00:28:13] Sarah: It's live now so everyone can get it. [00:28:16] Jason: So basically it'll show the the ROI on a property, so they can contrast this to like investing in stock or anything else and generally the property is going to win, right? You know, on almost anything. There's no way people can get these kind of returns if they invest. And tax benefits. The tax benefits. [00:28:35] Sarah: The tax benefits, like this is where it's at people, the tax benefits. And the nice thing, I will also plug this too, is it shows you on a particular property, if you were to buy it cash versus if you were to finance it because sometimes one or the other like totally wrecks the deal Or sometimes one or the other you're like, "well, this is what I want. This is what i'm really looking for tax benefit wise or cash flow wise." Well, okay, then if that's what you're looking for now, I know as a property manager or as a real estate agent. Now, I know which way does the deal make more sense for you? Because perhaps it doesn't make sense if you buy in cash, if you're looking for cash flow or vice versa, right? [00:29:17] So it kind of gives you the, you know, here's if you do it this way, this is what it looks like. And if you do it this way, this is what it looks like. And it shows you the benefits of both really of both on one report. And it's it's really great. I think it makes it I think it's streamlined everything that make things super simple and it makes these I think one of the big problems really is there are some investors that know how to do this. [00:29:43] Like we, we talk to them sometimes and they can just, they spit out. They're like, "Oh, I know based off of this data, this is how the taxes would work." But I would say the majority of people, they aren't as familiar with the tax code because it's not a very interesting read. So if they're not as familiar with the tax code, they might not look at it through that lens, or they might miss something. [00:30:10] This is really nice because it will show you exactly, you know, here's all of the tax benefits, and here's actually what it looks like on this particular property with these particular numbers. Yeah.  [00:30:20] Jason: So special shout out to John Chin for working closely with me on developing this. He has a certification for real estate agents to become investor savvy, all the certified residential investment specialists or Chris. [00:30:34] So, you know, check that out. And we, I work closely with John for months developing this tool and getting it to work in a certain way that it outputs a nice, pretty PDF. And what's really magical about this is that this is a lead generation tool so that you can provide these documents to on each property. [00:30:56] You can provide an assessment for real estate agents, and it's branded with your brand and you can give this to real estate agents. They will come and fill out a form and submit a property so that they can get this. You will give it to them. You can create a video about it and send them the video and this document. [00:31:13] We have give you a script for this as well, and you then have this tool or this resource and they're giving it to their investors, the investors. It's already got property management factored in as part of the investment strategy. And so it's part of the conversation. It's an assumed given thing. So this allows you to get property management clients is the bottom line. [00:31:34] This is why we developed this for our clients to help them grow faster. And our clients are loving having conversations around this. Yeah.  [00:31:41] Sarah: And they're like, "I'm going to plug this on my website. That way I can just get all this traffic on my website. I can get people right there. Easily accessible. I can promote it right from there. The data goes right to them." It's fantastic.  [00:31:51] Jason: Yeah. This allows you to help real estate agents look smart and look good with investments because most really aren't that good with investments. They aren't familiar. A lot of real estate agents don't even have a single investment. And so 50 percent real estate agents didn't even do a deal last year. [00:32:05] So let alone with an investor, right? So this allows you to help some of them become more investor savvy and feed you more deals as a property manager. So pretty awesome. So anyway, reach out to us at doorgrow.Com to get access to the ROI calculator. And I guarantee it's going to make you a lot of money if you use it effectively. [00:32:23] All right. So that's it for today until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. [00:32:29] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:32:56] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Visual Staring OCD (also known as Visual Tourrettic OCD), a complex and often misunderstood form of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, involves an uncontrollable urge to stare at certain objects or body parts, leading to significant distress and impairment. In an enlightening conversation with Kimberley, Matt Bannister shares his journey of overcoming this challenging condition, offering hope and practical advice to those grappling with similar issues. Matt's story begins in 2009, marked by a sense of depersonalization and dissociation, which he describes as an out-of-body experience and likened to looking at a stranger when viewing himself in the mirror. His narrative is a testament to the often-overlooked complexity of OCD, where symptoms can extend beyond the stereotypical cleanliness and orderliness. Kimberley's insightful probing into the nuances of Matt's experiences highlights the profound impact of Visual Staring OCD on daily life. The disorder manifested in Matt as an overwhelming need to maintain eye contact, initially with female colleagues, out of fear of being perceived as disrespectful. This compulsion expanded over time to include men and intensified to such a degree that Matt felt his mind couldn't function normally. The social implications of Visual Staring OCD are starkly evident in Matt's recount of workplace experiences. Misinterpretation of his behavior led to stigmatization and gossip, deeply affecting his mental well-being and leading to self-isolation. Matt's story is a poignant illustration of the societal misunderstandings surrounding OCD and its variants. Treatment and recovery form a significant part of the conversation. Matt emphasizes the role of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) and Exposure and Response Prevention (ERP) in his healing process. However, he notes the initial challenges in applying these techniques, underscoring the necessity of a tailored approach to therapy. Kimberley and Matt delve into the power of community support in managing OCD. Matt's involvement with the IOCDF (International OCD Foundation) community and his interactions with others who have overcome OCD, like Chris Trondsen, provide him with valuable insights and strategies. He speaks passionately about the importance of self-compassion, a concept introduced to him by Katie O'Dunne, and how it transformed his approach to recovery. A critical aspect of Matt's journey is the realization and acceptance of his condition. His story underscores the importance of proper diagnosis and understanding of OCD's various manifestations, which can be as unique as the individuals experiencing them. Matt's narrative is not just about overcoming a mental health challenge; it's a story of empowerment and advocacy. His transition from a struggling individual to a professional peer support worker is inspiring. He is now dedicated to helping others navigate their paths to recovery, using his experiences and insights to offer hope and practical advice. In conclusion, Matt Bannister's journey through the complexities of Visual Staring OCD is a powerful testament to the resilience of the human spirit. His story offers valuable insights into the disorder, challenges misconceptions, and highlights the importance of tailored therapy, community support, and self-compassion in overcoming OCD. For anyone struggling with OCD, Matt's story is a beacon of hope and a reminder that recovery, though challenging, is within reach. Instagram - matt bannister27 Facebook - matthew.bannister.92 Facebook group - OCD Warrior Badass Tribe Email :matt3ban@hotmail.com Kimberley: Welcome back, everybody. Every now and then, there is a special person that comes in and supports me in this way that blows me away. And today we have Matt Bannister, who is one of those people. Thank you, Matt, for being here today. This is an honor on many fronts, so thank you for being here. Matthew: No, thank you for bringing me on, Kim. This is a huge honor. I'm so grateful to be on this. It's just amazing. Thank you so, so much. It's great to be here. Kimberley: Number one, you have been such a support to me in CBT School and all the things that I'm doing, and I've loved hearing your updates and so forth around that. But today, I really want you to come on and tell your story from start to end, whatever you want to share. Tell us about you and your recovery story. Matthew: Sure. I mean, I would like to start as well saying that your CBT School is amazing. It is so awesome. It's helped me big time in my recovery, so I recommend that to everyone. I'm an IOCDF grassroots advocate. I am super passionate about it. I love being involved with the community, connecting with the community. It's like a big family. I'm so honored to be a part of this amazing community. My recovery story and my journey started back in 2009, when—this is going to show how old I am right now—I remember talking on MSN. I remember I was talking; my mind went blank in a conversation, and I was like, “Ooh, that's weird. It's like my mind's gone blank.” But that's like a normal thing. I can just pass it off and then keep going forward. But the thing is with me. It didn't. It latched on with that. I didn't know what was going on with me. It was very frightening. I believe that was a start for me with depersonalization and dissociation. I just had no idea of what it was. Super scary. It was like I started to forget part of my social life and how to communicate with people. I really did start to dissociate a lot when I was getting nervous. And that went on for about three or four years, but it gradually faded naturally. Kimberley: So you had depersonalization and derealization, and if so, can you explain to listeners what the differences were and how you could tell the differences? Matthew: Yeah. I think maybe, if I'm right with this, with the depersonalization, it felt like I knew how it was, but I didn't at the same time. It was like when I was looking in a mirror. It was like looking at a stranger. That's how it felt. It just felt like I became a shell of myself. Again, I just didn't know what was happening. It was really, really scary. I think it made it worse. With my former friends at that time, we'd make fun of that, like, “Oh, come on, you're not used to yourself anymore. You're not as confident anymore. What's going on? You used to try and take the [03:19 inaudible] a lot with that.” With the dissociation, I felt like I was having an out-of-body experience. For me, if I sat in a room and it was really hitting me hard, as if I were anxious, it would feel like I was floating around that room. I couldn't concentrate. It was very difficult to focus on things, especially if it was at work. It'd be very hard to do so. That came on and off. Kimberley: Yeah, it's such a scary feeling. I've had it a lot in my life too, and I get it. It makes you start to question reality, question even your mental health. It's such a scary experience, especially the first time you have it. I remember the first time I was actually with a client when it started. Matthew: Yeah, it is. Again, it is just a frightening experience. It felt like even when I was walking through places, it was just fog all the time. That's how it felt. I felt like someone had placed a curse on me. I really believe that with those feelings, and how else can I explain it? But that did eventually fade, luckily, in about, like I said, three to four years, just naturally on its own. When I had those sensations, I got used to that, so I didn't put as much emphasis on those situations. Then I carried on naturally through that. Then, well, with going through actually depersonalization, unfortunately, that's when my OCD did hit. For me, it was with, I believe, relationship OCD because I was with someone at the time. I was constantly always checking on them, seeing if they loved me. Like, am I boring you? Because I thought of depersonalization. I thought I wasn't being my full authentic self and that you didn't want to be within me anymore. I would constantly check my messages. If they didn't put enough kisses on the end of a message, I think, “Oh, they don't love me as much anymore. Oh no, I have to check.” All the time, even in phone calls, I always made sure to hear that my partner would say, “Oh, I love you back,” or “I love you.” Or as I thought, I did something wrong. Like they're going off me. I had a spiral, thinking this person was going to cheat on me. It went on and on and on and on with that. But eventually, again, the relationship did fade in a natural way. It wasn't because of the OCD; it was just how it went. And then, with relationship OCD, with that, I faded with that. A search with my friends didn't really affect me with that. Then what I can recall, what I have maybe experienced with OCD, I've had sexual orientation OCD. Again, I was questioning my sexuality. I'm heterosexual, and I was in another warehouse, a computer warehouse, and it was all males there. I was getting what I describe as intrusive thoughts of images of doing sexual acts or kissing and stuff like that. I'm thinking, “Why am I getting these thoughts? I know where my sexuality is.” There's nothing wrong, obviously, with being homosexual or queer. Nothing wrong with that at all. It's just like I said, that's how it fades with me. I mean, it could happen again with someone who's queer, and it could be getting heterosexual thoughts. They don't want that because they know they're comfortable with their sexuality. But OCD is trying to doubt that. But then again, for me, that did actually fade again after about five or six months, just on its own. And then, fast forward two years later is when the most severe theme of OCD I've ever had hit me hard like a ton of bricks. And that for me was Visual Tourettic OCD, known as Staring OCD, known as Ocular Tourettic OCD. And that was horrendous. The stigma I received with this theme was awful. I remembered the day when it hit me, when I was talking to a female colleague. Like we all do, we all look around the room and we try and think of something to say, but my eyes just landed on the chest, like just an innocent look. I'm like, “Oh my God, why did I do that? I don't want to disrespect this person in front of me. I treat her as an equal. I treat everyone the same way. I don't want to feel like she's being disrespected.” So I heavily maintained eye contact after that. Throughout that conversation, it was fine. It was normal, nothing different. But after that, it really latched onto me big time. The rumination was massive. It was like, you've got to make sure you're giving every single female colleague now eye contact. You have to do it because you know otherwise what stigma you could get. And that went on for months and years, and it progressed to men as well a couple of years later. It felt like my mind can't function anymore. I remember again I was sitting next to my friend, who was having a game on the PlayStation. And then I just looked at his lap, just for no reason, just looked at his lap, and he said, “Ooh, I feel cold and want to go and change.” I instantly thought, “Oh my God, is it because he thought I might have stared that I creeped him out?” And then it just seriously latched onto me big time. As we all know, with this as well, when we think of the pink elephant allergy, it's like when we don't think of the pink elephant, what do we do? And that's what it was very much like with this. I remember when it started to get really bad, my eyes would die and embarrass somebody part places. It was like the more anxious I felt about not wanting to do it, the more it happened, where me and my good friend, Carol Edwards, call it a tick with the eye movement. So like Tourette, let's say, when you get really nervous, I don't know if this is all true. When someone's really nervous, maybe they might laugh involuntarily, like from the Joker movie, or like someone swearing out loud. This is the same thing with eye movement. Every time I was talking to a colleague face-to-face to face, I was giving them eye contact, my mind would be saying to me, “Don't look there, don't look there, don't look there,” and unfortunately think it would happen. That tick would happen. It would land where I wouldn't want it to land. It was very embarrassing because eventually it did get noticed. I remember seeing female colleagues covering their hi vis tops, like across their arms. Men would cover their crotches. They would literally cross their legs very blatantly in front of me. Then I could start to hear gossip. This is when it got really bad, because I really heard the stigma from this. No one confronted me by the way of this face-to-face, but I could hear it crystal clear. They were calling me all sorts, like deviant or creep or a perv. “Have you seen his eyes? Have you seen him looking and does that weird things with his eyes? He checks everyone out.” It was really soul-destroying because my compulsion was to get away from everyone. I would literally hide across a room. Where no one else was around, I would hide in the cubicles because it was the only place where I wasn't triggered. It got bad again. It went to my family, my friends, everyone around me. It didn't happen with children, but it happened with every adult. It was horrendous. I reached out to therapy. Luckily, I did get in contact with a CBT therapist, but it was talk therapy. But it's better than nothing. I will absolutely take that. She was amazing. I can't credit my therapist enough. She was awesome. If this person, maybe this is like grace, you're amazing, so thank you for that. She was really there for me. It was someone I could really talk to, and it can help me and understand as best as she could. She did, I believe, further research into what I had. And then that's when I finally got diagnosed that I had OCD. I never knew this was OCD, and everything else made sense, like, “Oh, this is why I was going through all those things before. It all now makes concrete sense what I was going through.” Then I looked up the Facebook group called Peripheral Vision/Visual Tourettic OCD. That was a game-changer for me. I finally knew that I wasn't alone because, with this, you really think you're alone, and you are not. There are thousands of people with this, or even more. That was truly validating. I was like, “Thank God I'm not the only one.” But the problem is, I didn't really talk in that group at first because I thought if other people saw me writing in that group, it's going to really kill my reputation big time. That would be like the final nail in the coffin. Even though it was a private group, no one could do that. But I didn't still trust it that much at that time. I was doing ERP, and I thought great because I've researched ERP. I knew that it's effective. Obviously, it's the gold standard. But for me, unfortunately, I think I was doing it where I was white-knuckling through exposures. Also, when I was hearing at work, still going back to my most triggering place, ERP, unfortunately, wasn't working for me because I wasn't healing. It was like I was going through the trigger constantly. My mind was just so overwhelmed. I didn't have time to heal. I remember I eventually self-isolated in my room. I didn't go anywhere. I locked myself away because I thought I just couldn't cope anymore. It was a really dark moment. I remember crying. It was just like despair. I was like, “What's happening to me? Why is all this happening to me?” Later on, I did have the choice at work. I thought, I can either go through the stillest, hellacious process or I can choose to go on sick leave and give my chance to heal and recover. That's why I did. And that was the best decision I ever made. I recommend that to anyone who's going through OCD severely. You always have a choice. You always have a choice. Never pressure yourself or think you're weak or anything like that, because that's not the case. You are a warrior. When you're going through things like this, you are the most strongest person in the world. It takes a lot of courage to confront those demons every single day to never ever doubt yourself with that. You are a strong, amazing individual. When I did that, again, I could heal. It took me two weeks. Unfortunately, my therapy ended. I only had 10 sessions, but I had to wait another three months for further therapy in person, so I thought, “Oh, at least I do eventually get therapy in person. That's amazing.” And then the best thing happened to me. I found the IOCDF community. Everything changed. The IOCDF is amazing. The best community, in my opinion, the world for OCD. My god, I remember when I first went on Ethan's livestream with Community Conversations. I reached out to Ethan, and he sent me links for OCD-UK. I think OCD Action as well. That was really cool of him and great, and I super appreciate that, and you knew straight away because I remember watching this video with Jonathan Grayson, who is also an amazing guy and therapist, talking about this. I was like, again, this is all that I have. And then after that, I reached out to Chris Trondsen as the expert. What Chris said was so game-changing to me because he's gone through this as well and has overcome it. He's overcome so many severe themes of OCD. I'm like, “This guy is amazing. He is an absolute rock star. Literally like a true champion.” For someone to go through as much as he has and to be where he is today, I can't ask for any more inspirement from that. It's just incredible. He gave some advice as well in that livestream when we were talking because I reached out and said, how did you overcome this? He said, “With the staring OCD, well, I basically told myself, while I'm staring, well, I might as well stare anyway.” And that clicked with me because I'm thinking he's basically saying that he just didn't give it value anymore. I'm like, “That's what I've been doing all this time. I've given so much value, so much importance. That's why it keeps happening to me.” I'm like, “Okay, I can maybe try and work with this.” Then I started connecting with Katie O'Dunne, who is also amazing. She was the first person I actually did hear about self-compassion. I'm like, “Yes, why didn't I learn about this early in my life? Self-compassion is amazing. I need to know all about this.” It makes so much sense. Why'd I keep beating myself up when I treat a friend, like when I talked to myself about this? No, I wouldn't. I just watched Katie's streams and watched her videos and Instagram. It was just an eye-opener for me. I was like, “Wow, she's talking about, like, bring it on mindset as well with this.” When you're about to face the brave thing, just say, “Bring it on. Just bring on," like The Rock says. "Just bring it. I just love that. That's what I did. That's what I started doing. I connected as well with my friend, Carol Edwards, who is also a former therapist and is the author of many books. One of them was Address Staring OCD. If anyone's going through this as well, I really recommend that book. Carol is an amazing, amazing person. Such an intelligent woman. When I met Carol, it was like the first time in my life. I was like, “Wow, I'm actually talking to someone who's got the same theme as me, and a lot of other themes I've gone through, she has as well.” We just totally got each other. I was like, “Finally, I'm validated. I can talk to someone who gets it truly.” And that really helped, let's say, when I started to learn about value-based exposures. I remember, again, Katie, Elizabeth McIngvale, Ethan, and Chris. I was like, “Yeah, I mean, I'm going to do it that way,” because I just did ERP before I was white-knuckling. I never thought of doing it in a value-based way. So I thought, okay, well, what is OCD taking away that I enjoy most doing? That's what I did. I created a hierarchy, or like even in my mind. I thought, well, the cinema, restaurants, coffee shops, going to concerts, eventually going on holiday again, seeing my friends, family is most probably most important. I started doing baby steps. I remember as well, I asked Chris and Liz, how do I open up to this to my family? Because I've got to a point where I just can't hide behind a mask anymore. I need someone else to know who's really close to me. Chris gave me some amazing advice, and Liz, and they said that if you show documents, articles, videos about this, long as they have a great understanding of mental health and OCD, you should be okay. And that's what I did. They know I had OCD. I've told them I had OCD, but not the theme I had. When I showed them documents and videos, it was so nerve-racking, I won't lie. But it was the best thing I ever did because then, when they watched that, they came to me and said, “Why didn't you tell us about this before? I thought you wouldn't understand or grasp this.” I know OCD awareness in the UK is not the best, especially with this theme. But they said, “No, after watching that, we're on your team; we will support you. We are here for you. We will do exposures with you.” And they gave me a massive hug afterwards. I was like, “Oh my God, this is the best scenario for me ever,” because then I can really amplify my recovery. This is where it started really kicking on for me now. Everything I've learned, again, from those videos, watching with the streams from IOCDF, I've incorporated. Basically, when I was going to go to the cinema at first, I know that the cinema is basically darkness. When you walk through there, no one's really going to notice you. Yeah, they might see you in their peripheral vision, but they're going to be more like concentrating on that movie than me. That was my mindset. I was like, “Well, if I was like the other person and I didn't have VTO and the other person did, would I be more concentrated on them or the movie?” And for me, it would be obviously the movie. Why would I else? Unless they were doing something really vigorous or dancing in front of me, I'm not going to look. And that's my mindset. The deep anxiety was there, I will be honest. It was about 80 percent. But I had my value because I was going to watch a film that I really wanted to watch. I'm a big Marvel fan. It was Black Panther Wakanda, and I really enjoyed that. It was a long movie as well. I went with my friend. We got on very, very well. For me as well, with this trigger, I get triggered when people can move as well next to me. I'm very hyper-vigilant with this. That can include me with the peripheral as well. But even though my eyes say they died, it was, okay, instead of beating myself up, I can tell myself this is OCD. I know what this is. It doesn't define me. I'm going to enjoy watching this movie as much as I can and give myself that compassion to do so. After that moment, I was like, “Wow, even though I was still triggered, I enjoyed it. I wasn't just wanting to get out of there. I enjoyed being there.” And that was starting to be a turning point for me because then I went to places like KFC. I miss KFC. I love my chicken bucket. I won't lie with that. That was a big value. You got to love the chicken bucket folks. Oh, it was great. Well, I had my parents around me so that they know I was pretty anxious still. But I was there. I was enjoying my chicken again. I was like, “I miss this so much.” And then the best thing is, as far as I remember, when I left that restaurant, they said to me, “We're so proud of you.” And that helps so much because when you're hearing feedback like that, it just gives you a huge pat on the back. It's like, yeah, I've just done a big, scary thing. I could have been caught. I could have been ridiculed. I could have been made fun of. People may have gossiped about me, but I took that leap of faith because I knew it's better than keep isolating, where in my room, being in prison, not living a life. I deserve to live a life. I deserve to do that. I'm a human being. I deserve to be a part of human society. After that, my recovery started to progress. I went to my friend Carol to more coffee shops. We started talking about advocacy, powerful stuff, because when you have another reason on a why to recover, that's a huge one. When you can inspire and empower others to recover, it gives you so much more of a purpose to do it because you want to be like that role model, that champion for the people. It really gives you a great motive to keep going forward with that and that motivation. And then I went to restaurants with my family for the first time in years, instead of making excuses, instead of compulsion. People would still walk by me in my peripheral, but I had the mindset, like Kate said, “You know what? Just bring it on. Just bring it.” I went in there. I know I was still pretty anxious, and I sat on my phone, and I'm going to tell myself using mindfulness this time that I'm going to enjoy the smell of the food coming in. I'm going to enjoy the conversation with my family instead of thinking of, let's say, the worst-case scenario. The same with a waiter or waitress coming by. I'm just going to have my order. And again, yeah, my eyes die, they spit in my food—who knows? But I'm going to take that leap of faith because, again, it's worth it to do this. It is my why to get my life back. That's why I did it. Again, I enjoyed that meal, and I enjoyed talking to my family. It was probably the first time in years where I wasn't proper triggered. I was like, that was my aha moment right there. The first time in years where my eyes didn't die or anything. I just enjoyed being in a normal situation. It was so great to feel that. So validating. Kimberley: So the more triggered you were, the harder it was to not stare? Is that how it was? Matthew: Yes. The more triggered I was going down that rabbit hole, the more, let's say, it would happen because my eyes would die, like up and down. It would be quite frantic, up and down, up and down. Everyone's not the same. Everyone's different with this. But that's what mine would be like. That's why I would call it a tick in that sense. But when we feel calm, obviously, and the rumination is not there, or let's say, the trigger, then it's got no reason to happen or be very rare when it does. It's like retraining. I learned to retrain my mind in that sense to incorporate that into doing these exposures. Again, that's what was great about opening up to my family. I could practice that at home because then, when I'm sitting with my family, I'd still be triggered to a degree, but they know what I have. They're not going to judge me or reject me, or anything like that. So my brain healed naturally. The more I sat next to my family, I could bring that with, say, the public again and not feel that trigger. I could feel at ease instead of feeling constantly on edge. Again, going to coffee shops late, looking around the room, like you say so amazingly, Kim, using your five senses. I did that, like looking around, looking at billboards, smelling the coffee again, enjoying the taste of it, enjoying the conversation, enjoying the surroundings where I am instead of focusing on the prime fear. And that's what really helped brought me back to the present. Being in the here and the now. And that was monumental. Such a huge tool, and I recommend that to everyone. Mindfulness is very, very powerful for doing, let's say, your exposures and to maintain recovery. It's just a game-changer. I can't recommend that enough. One of my biggest milestones with recovery when I hit it, the first time again in years, I went to a live rock concert full of 10,000 people. There would be no way a year prior that would I go. Kimberley: What rock concert? I have to know. Matthew: Oh, I went to Hollywood Vampires. Kimberley: Oh, how wonderful! That must have been such an efficient, like, it felt like you crossed a massive marathon finish line to get that thing done. Matthew: Oh, yeah, it was. It was huge to see, like I say, Alice Cooper, Johnny Depp, and I think—I can't remember this—Joe Perry from Aerosmith. I can't remember the drummer's name, I apologize, but it was great. You know what? I rocked out. I told myself, “I've come this far in my journey, I'm going to rock out. I'm going to enjoy myself. I don't care, let's say, where my eyes may go, and that's telling OCD, though. I'm just going to be there in the moment and enjoy rocking out.” And that's exactly what I did. I rocked out big time. I remember even the lead singer from the prior band pointing at me and waving. I would have been so triggered by that before, but now we're back in the game, the rock on sign, and it was great. Kimberley: There's so much joy in that too, right? You were so willing to be triggered that you rocked out. That's how willing we were to do that work. It's so cool, this story. Matthew: Yeah. The funny part is, well, the guy next to me actually spilled beer all over himself. That would have been so triggering against me before, like somebody's embarrassing body part places. Whereas this time I just laughed it off and I had a joke with him, and he got the beer. It was like a normal situation—nothing weird or anything. His wife, I remember looking at my peripheral, was just cross-legged. But hey, that's just a relaxing position like anyone else would do. That's what I told myself. It's not because of me thinking, “Oh, he's a weirdo or a creep.” It's because she's just being relaxed and comfortable. That's just retraining my mind out, and again, refocusing back to the concert and again, rocking out to Alice Cooper, which was amazing. I really enjoyed it. I just thought it's just incredible from where I was a year ago without seeing-- got to a point where I set myself, I heard the worst stigma imaginable to go to the other aspect, the whole end of the other tunnel, the light of the tunnel, and enjoy myself and being free. I love what Elizabeth McIngvale says about that, freedom over function. And that's exactly at that point where that's where I was. I'm very lucky to this day. That's why I've maintained it. Sometimes I still do get triggered, but it's okay because I know it's OCD. We all know there's no cure, but we can keep it in remission. We can live a happy life regardless. We just use the tools that we've learned. Again, for me, values-based exposure in that way was game-changing. Self-compassion was game-changing. I forgot to mention my intrusive thoughts with sexual images as well with this, which was very stressing. But when I had those images more and more, it's basically what I learned again from Katie. I was like, “Yeah, you know what? Bring it on. Bring it on. Let's see. Turn it up. Turn it up. Crank it up.” Eventually, the images stopped because I wasn't giving fear factor to it. I was going to put the opposite of basically giving it the talk-to-the-hand analogy, and that worked so well. I see OCD as well from Harry Potter. I see OCD as the boggart, where when you come from the boggart, it's going to come to your most scariest thing. But you have that power of choice right there and then to cast the spell and say ridiculous, as it says in the Harry Potter movies, and it will transform into something silly or something that you can transform yourself with compassion and love. An OCD can't touch you with that. It can't. It becomes powerless. That's why I love that scene from that film. Patrick McGrath says it so well with the Pennywise analogy. The more fear we feed the beast or the monster, the more stronger it becomes. But when we learn to give ourselves self-compassion and love and, again, using mindfulness and value and knowing who we authentically are, truly, it can do nothing. It becomes powerless. It can stay in the backseat, it might try and rear its ugly head again, but you have the more and the power in the world to bring it back, and you can be firmly in that driver's wheel. Kimberley: So good. How long did it take you, this process? Was it a short period of time, or did these value-based exposures take some time? Matthew: Yeah, at first, it took some time to master it, if that makes sense. Again, I was going to start going to more coffee shops with my friend Carol or my family. It did take time. I was still feeling it to a degree, but probably about after a month, it started to really click. And then overall, it took me about-- I started really doing this in December, January time. I went to that concert in July. So about, yeah, six, seven months. Kimberley: Amazing. Were there any stages where there were blips in the road, bumps on the road? What were they like for you? Matthew: Yeah. I mean, my eyes did that sometimes. Also, like I said, when I started to do exposures, where I'd walk by myself around town places, it could be very nerve-wracking. I could think I'm walking behind someone that all the might think I'm a stalker and things like that because of the staring. That was hard. Again, I gave myself the compassion and told myself that it's just OCD. It doesn't define who I am. I know what this monster is, even though it's trying its very best to put me down that rabbit hole. Yeah, that person might turn around and say something, or even look. I have the choice again to smile back, or I can even wave at them if I wanted to do so. It just shows that you really have all the power or choice to just throw some back into OCD space every single time. Self-compassion was a huge thing that helped smooth out those bumps. Same with mindfulness. When I was getting dissociated, even when I was still getting dissociated, getting really triggered, I would use the mindfulness approach. For example, when I was sitting in pubs, and that was a value to me as well, sometimes that would happen. But I would then use the tools of mindfulness. And that really, really helped collect myself being present back in the here and the now and enjoying what's in front of me, like having a beer, having something to eat, talking to my friend, instead of thinking like, are they going to see me staring at them weirdly? Or my eyes met out someone, and I don't know, the waitress might kick me out or something like that. Instead of thinking all those thoughts, I just stay present. The thing is with this as well, it's like when you walk down places, people don't even look at you really anyway. They just go about their business, like we all do. It's just remembering that and keeping that mindfulness aspect. You can look around where you are, like buildings, trees, the ocean, whatever you like, and you can take that in and relearn. Feel the wind around you. If it's an ice wind, obviously, that's freezing right now. The smells—anything, anything if it's a nice smell, or even if it's a bad smell. Anything that use your senses that can just bring you back and feel again that peace, something you enjoy, surround yourself with. Again, when I was seeing my friend Carol, the town I went to called Beverley, it's a beautiful town, very English. It is just a nice place. That's what I was doing—looking at the scenery around where I was instead of focusing on my worst worries. Kimberley: This is so cool. It's all the tools that we talk about, right? And you've put them into practice. Maybe you can tell me if I'm wrong or right about this, but it sounds like you were all in with these skills too. You weren't messing around. You were ready for recovery. Is that true? Or did you have times where you weren't all in? Matthew: Yeah, there were times where I wasn't all in. I suppose when I was-- I also like to ask yourself with me if I feel unworthy. That is still, I know it's different to staring OCD and I'm still trying to tackle that sometimes, and that can be difficult. But again, I use the same tools. But with, like I say, doing exposures with VTO, I would say I was all in because I know that if I didn't, it's going to be hard to reclaim my life back. I have a choice to act and use the tools that I know that's going to work because I've seen Chris do it. It's like, “Well, I can do it. I've seen Carol do it. That means I can do it. So I'm going to do it.” That's what gave me the belief and inspiration to go all in. Because again, reach out to the community with the support. If it was a hard time, I'd reach out. The community are massive. The connection they have and, again, the empowerment and the belief they can give you and the encouragement is just, oh, it's amazing. It's game-changing. It can just light you up straight off the bar when you need it most, and then you can go out and face that big scary thing. You can do it. You can overcome it because other people have. That means you can do it. It's absolutely possible. Having that warrior mindset, as some of my groups—the warrior badass mindset—like to call it, you absolutely go in there with that and you can do it. You can absolutely do it. Kimberley: I know you've shared with me a little bit privately, but can you tell us now what your big agenda is, what your big goal is right now, and the work you're doing? Because it's really exciting. Matthew: Sure, I'd be glad to do it. I am now officially a professional peer support worker. If anyone would love to reach out to me, I am here. It's my biggest passion. I love it. It's like the ultimate reward in a career. When you can help someone in their journey and recovery and even empower each other, inspire, motivate, and help with strategies that's worked for you, you can pass on them tools to someone else who really needs it or is still going through the process where it's quite sticky with OCD. There's nothing more rewarding than that. Because for me, when I was at my most severe, when I was in my darkest, darkest place, it felt like a void. I felt like just walking through a blizzard of nothing. Having someone there to speak to who gets it, who truly gets it, and who can be really authentically there for you to really say, “You can do this. I'm going to do it with you. Let's do it. Like really, let's do it. Bring it on, let's do it. Let's kick this thing's butt,” it's huge. You really lay the smackdown on OCD. It's just massive. For me, if I had that when I was going through it, again, I had a great therapist, but if I had a peer support worker, if I was aware that they were around—I wasn't, unfortunately, at that time—I probably would have reached out because it's a huge tool. It's amazing. Even if you're just to connect with someone in general and just have a talk, it can make all the difference. One conversation, I believe, can change everything in that moment of what that person's darkness may be. So I'm super, super excited with that. Kimberley: Very, very exciting. Of course, at the end, I'll have everyone and you give us links on how to get to you. Just so people know what peer support counseling is or peer support is, do they need to have a therapist? Who's on the team? What is it that they need in order to start peer support? Matthew: Yeah. I mean, you could have a therapist. I mean, I know peer support workers do work with therapists. I know Chrissie Hodges. I've listened to her podcast, and she does that. I think it may be the same with Shannon Shy as well. I'm not too sure. I think as well to the person, what they're going through, if they would want to at first reach out to a peer support worker that they know truly understands them, that can be great. That peer support like myself can then help them find a therapist. That's going to really help them with their theme—or not just their theme—an OCD specialist who gets it, who's going to give them the right treatment. That can be really, really beneficial. Kimberley: I know that we've worked with a lot of peer support, well, some peer support providers, and it was really good because for the people, let's say, we have set them up with exposures and they're struggling to do it in their own time, the peer support counselor has been so helpful at encouraging them and reminding them of the tools that they had already learned in therapy. I think you're right. I think knowing you're not alone and knowing someone's done it, and I think it's also just nice to have someone who's just a few steps ahead of you, that can be very, very inspiring for somebody. Matthew: Absolutely. Again, having a peer support work with a therapist, that's amazing. Because again, for recovery, that's just going to amplify massively. It's like having an infinite gauntlet on your hand against OCD. It's got no chance down the long run. It's incredibly powerful. I love that. Again, like you said, Kim, it's like when someone, let's say, they know that has reached that mountain top of recovery, and that they look at that and thinking, “Well, I want to do the same thing. I know it would be great to connect with that person,” even learn from them, or again, just to have that connection can make a huge, huge difference to know that they can open up to other people. Again, for me, it's climbing up that other mountain top with someone else from the start, but to know I've got the experience, I get to climb that mountain top with them. Kimberley: Yeah, so powerful. Before we finish up, will you tell us where people can get ahold of you if they want to learn more? And also, if there's anything that you feel we could have covered today that we didn't, like a main last point that you want to make. Matthew: Sure. People can reach out to me, and I'm going to try and remember my tags. My Instagram tag is matt_bannister27. I think my Facebook is Matthew.Bannister.92, if you just type in Matthew Bannister. It would be in the show notes as well. You can reach out to me on there. I am at the moment going to create a website, so I will fill more onto that later as well. My email is matt3ban@hotmail.com, which is probably the best way to reach out to me. Kimberley: Amazing. Anything else you want to mention before we finish up? Matthew: Everyone listening, no matter what darkness you're going through, no matter what OCD is putting in your way, you can overcome it. You can do it. As you say brilliantly as well, Kim, it's a beautiful day to do hard things. You can make that as every day because you can do the hard things. You can do it. You can overcome it, even though sometimes you might think it's impossible or that it's too much. You can do it, you can get there. Even if it takes baby steps, you're allowed to give yourself that compassion and grace to do so. It doesn't matter how long it takes. Like Keith Smith says so well: “It's not a sprint; it's a marathon.” When you reach that finish line, and you will, it's the most premium feeling. You will all get there. You will all absolutely get there if you're going through it. Oh, Kim, I think you're on mute. Kimberley: I'm sorry. Thank you so much for being on. For the listeners, I actually haven't heard your story until right now too, so this is exciting for me to hear it, and I feel so inspired. I love the most that you've taken little bits of advice and encouragement from some of the people I love the most on this planet. Ethan Smith, Liz McIngvale, Chris Trondsen, Katie O'Dunne. These are people who I learn from because they're doing the work as well. I love that you've somehow bottled all of their wisdom in one thing and brought it today, which I'm just so grateful for. Thank you so much. Matthew: You're welcome. Again, they're just heroes to me, and yourself as well. Thank you for everything you do as well for the community. You're amazing. Kimberley: Thank you. Thank you so much for being here. Matthew: Anytime.

A Few Minutes in The Gospel of Matthew:  You are The Light of The World  -  English only.  What did Messiah mean when He called His disciples "the light of the world?"  Recorded August 13, 2023.

For more info on what is discussed in this epsiode, head to MarketPowerMethod.com Allen: Boom, welcome to another edition of the Options Genius Podcast! Today, as promised, in the last episode, we have an interview, an interview with a fellow named Kevin. And Kevin is one of our beta testers in the Market Power Program, Kevin has done an amazing 266% ROI, since he's joined the program earlier in 2003. So that's not even a whole year worth the results. And that is after fees. So after he took out his commission's after he took out his fees, that's how much money he put in his pocket. Or basically, he left in the account. I don't know what he did with it. But yeah, that's what he kept. All right. That is amazing. I wanted to share this with you, I wanted to get this to you. Because these type of results are uncommon. I think that's an understatement. You know, when you have most people trying to make seven 8% A year from the stock market, even though you know, the market, banks, banks are paying what 4 or 5%. Right now, that's wonderful, that's great. Stock market should be paying more, but nobody out there is getting 266%. So shake cheese, but we are doing it with the market power program, I wanted to share this because I want you to be excited, I want you to be happy for Kevin, I want you to know this type of stuff is available, it's doable, if you have success with trading. So that's like the goal. I mean, the goal shouldn't be 266%. But the goal should be that you have enough money coming in to pay for all your expenses that you could do that from your trading. So you have basically your financial independence, right? And then after that you keep adding more and more money to the accounts or to your savings account or whatever, so that the financial worries that you have in your life melt away and you don't have any financial work. Because the thing is like, hey, oh, I got a speeding ticket. Okay? Well, if you can write a check, to make your problem go away, you don't have a problem. And that's what I really want. That's the type of life I want to have for you. Okay, so the type of problem where he's like, Okay, if I can just write a check and make this problem go away, I don't have a problem, I have a money issue. And the money issue, we want to make it go away through trading, market power is going to be one of those ways this program is coming. It's exciting. It's amazing. I can't speak enough about it. I mean, it's just unbelievable. I haven't I lost sleep. When we first came up with this seriously, I lost sleep for days and days and days. And I just can't believe it. And even now, it's still unbelievable. 54 trades in a row that I have made with this program. I think Kevin, the one that you're going to see in the interview, I think he had one trade that went bad, and he had to adjust it. And so it still worked out. And it's phenomenal. It's amazing. And he's not the only one, I'm not the only one, we have 35 other people that are trading this, in our beta testing program. They're all doing phenomenal. We have case studies, we have screenshots, we have interviews, we have, you know, the emails from them, thanking us and saying how amazing it is. So it's just a matter of time before we can open it up for others join. And unfortunately, you know, we can't let everybody in the whole world join. So whoever gets in to get in, that's wonderful. You only help certain limited amount of people, because we still need to protect it and keep it somewhat secret in the sense so that it doesn't get diluted and it doesn't stop working. So that's the situation here. I'm gonna go ahead and stop talking and let you watch or listen to the interview. And then when market power, makes his official debut and launches to the general list, I will let you know on the podcast. Or if you want to get to know earlier, then you can go to OptionGenius.com and email us or contact us and say hey, I want to be on the notification list. I want to know more about Market Power. I want to know when it comes out. I want to be one of the first How do I get to the top of the line, right? So let's do that. And let's go ahead and let's get into this interview. Matthew: Alright. So today we're joined by Kevin Donegen, and he's a member of our market power program. And I want to thank you today for sharing your experience. And you know how the course has been going for you and the program, and just really appreciate having you. Kevin: You're welcome. Glad to be here. Thanks, sir. Matthew: You're welcome. So, I always ask people, you know, the first question is, how did you find Option Genius? So a lot of people find it by podcast or other means. So how did you find out Option Genius? Kevin: It's been a few years now, because I joined other, you know, the training portion of Option Genius a couple years ago, I think it was late 21. So almost two years now, I guess, you know, it's a good question, how I found Option Genius. I guess. I was exploring Option Trading, you know, on my phones, or searches and option genius. And I looked at a few mean, option, genius came up and I gravitated towards it. I don't know, I think I was just searching for option learning, training and learning kind of stuff and found it and it's been good. So I think I found it just by searching. Matthew: Just by discovery. Kevin: Yeah, research Matthew: Great. So you've been a part of our original market program. Call you guys kind of like the Founding Fathers, you know, you, you went in there and tried everything? And is there anything when you decided to join the program? Were you like, hey, you know, I want to be a part of this program that stuck out to you. Kevin: Boy, when Allen, when you all had that first introductory conference call regarding the program, and shared the historical back testing data about what the program was based on? I mean, that that clinched it right there, that historical back tested data, of, you know, the premise, and the process of the program, and how it looked back tested was just the results are just remarkable. Matthew: Excellent. Did you have any personal expectations before you joined the program, you know, as far as like a percentage goal or just to kind of get consistent? Kevin: I had been trading options, covered calls and in spreads before a little bit, I dabbled in it. So I guess my initial expectation for the program was to pay back my, the cost of the program. First, that was my first goal. And I did it pretty quickly. And by starting out slow, you know, I, you know, I started out real slow just to get the feel for the program. And as I traded more, and you know, the indicator came up, and I made a trade in one and one again, and one again, my confidence, says, Yes, this is real. And then I just started slowly, my trade starts slowly ramped up, and I think I paid for it. And depending on how slow or fast you start, it can be a fast payback. If you start with larger trades, but I think I paid mine back in a few weeks, like 12 weeks or something. Matthew: Wow, that's great. That's like, yeah, it's really important, what you just said, you know, a lot of people, you know, you're excited, and you can see things working. And a lot of times, you know, the human psychology gets involved, and we go too fast, right? You know, so it's, it's really kind of really great that you kind of measure yourself and start slow. So it's really great. For sure. Is there any kind of particular part of the program that you really like? You know, is it some people can say, oh, it's adjustment, or it's, whatever. Is there anything you can pinpoint? Kevin: Yep, the two things come, pop up in my mind, that the online forum of the group and the chats and the sharing of information amongst the market power group, I really enjoy that to get other people's opinion and take on the program in the market and when to trade, not to trade. So I really like that it's an open forum. And it's, it's welcoming, and no one's afraid to say anything. So I really liked that. The second tool I like is the trading log, the market power trading log that you all put together. It's well organized. I've been using that to track all my trades. Matthew: Great. Yeah. I mean, again, you hit on a really great point. I mean, that we have a group of people, you know, some people are just new to options. And you have some people I said in another interview that are looks like they take it to quantum physics. So it's like, you get all this range of knowledge. And it's really kind of, we're all here for the right reason. So it's really kind of great. It's almost like a family, if you will. Kevin: Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. Matthew: How has the support been? I mean, you kind of mentioned a little bit from Option Genius, but more like the people around you. I mean, I think you just alluded to that, that you have a good support system that If you want. Kevin: Oh yeah, whether it be a group member or yourself or Trish or an even Allen, it's been great. The communication has been prompt and, and timely and always answered. So there's always someone to answer a question or what have you. So it's been really good. Matthew: That's great to hear. You know, we really want people to feel involved and not feel left out. I'm, you know, there's nothing worse than feeling like you're alone, you know? Yeah. Kevin: So I don't, I don't feel that way at all.  Matthew: Awesome. Has your trading changed at all? Since you joined the program? Like, as far as I mean, can you talked a little about confidence, or, you know, some people? You know, a big main reason is confidence, I say, but how was it for you? Kevin: So, last year before the program, I had some success, just doing it myself, but then I got burned, and wiped away all my profits. So what I get out of the program is the discipline of the program. And, you know, when you have an indicator day, that's the day to trade no other. So, I'm more disciplined since joining the program. And I'm only trading when there's an indicator day, by and large. So the short answer is, I've gained a lot of discipline after joining the program.  Matthew: That's great to hear. So we're all shoot for that to be consistent, you know, and there's nothing worse than trading and winning than winning, and then giving it all back. I think it's like the, you know, it's the worst thing that can happen, right? Kevin: Anybody that's probably been in options have had that experience at one time or another? Matthew: Sure. So it's almost required. Kevin: Boy, it's a tough learning, but that's okay. Matthew: All right. So, um, how have your results been so far? For you? Kevin: I'm looking at my trading log right now, because I figured you'd ask that. And I've kind of added some features to it myself. But if you're interested in those, we can talk about that. But I've made what about 47 trades? Not counting yesterday. So I work off the two platforms. So I'd make trades in both one as is a smaller account, one's a bigger account. So I may duplicate a given day on two different platforms. But anyway, you know, 47 trades, I think I lost only one. And that was because of me. It wasn't because of the program. And I only lost like 600 bucks. So no big deal. And then I adjusted and made it back. So but that was my fault. And I bought too early in the day, basically. And I put notes out there, which is good. My average number of contracts, I would say is 20. So but you know, I've been up as high as 40 and 10. And 30. Just depends how I'm feeling. You know, like, like, yesterday, I did only 20. I don't know, I I don't know why I just didn't want to do 40. You know, and so long and short. I've made over a minute, I also back out the cost of trades to get a net profit, right? So my net profit is 226%. Matthew: Yeah, that's great. You mean, you're trading at a good amount? You kind of just talked to how a little bit can made me kind of feel how I trade you know, there's some days that, you know, you don't you have like kind of a hunch, you know, you're like, I don't really feel, you know, can be personal. It could be like something like, I just don't feel like trading today. And that's perfectly fine. And what I do love, and I think you'll agree is that some days, you don't have to trade, you know, it's like, you don't have to take every signal. Right? You can, you can wait and there'll be another one coming down the pike, you know? Kevin: Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. And that's why that's where the discipline comes in. You know, because you just got to be patient because the signal will come. And when it comes, that's your time. Matthew: So yeah, yeah, you kind of take it as a case by case basis. You know, that's great, for sure. Alright, so kind of a fun question. So a lot of people, they have different goals for their profits. And it's nice to good problem to have, you know, you're in your profit, you're making money. Some people do fun things like take vacations, and some people just roll it into their account. So what are your plans? Kevin: So I guess, on articulate or unstated two goals for the program and the profits that I earned from market power. First is to build up my account so I can grow the dollars in My Account for doing this so that I could keep slowly ramping up as I get more and more comfortable. But then I also, the second one is to take some of the profits and have some fun. And like you alluded to, I think maybe before we started the call, but, you know, I went fishing in Colorado, and virtually almost paid for the whole trip, in a day, at least a good portion of VRBO expense. And then, earlier in the year, my wife and I went to Paris, and I was trading when I was over in Paris, and helps pay for that part of the trip. So, you know, Matthew: It's great. I mean, it almost makes your trip more enjoyable. You know, you're over there, you're like, hey, you know, this is cash flow in this right now, you know? Kevin: Exactly. So it's, it's a great feeling. So yeah, two things, take a little profits, have some fun with it, and then keep growing the account. Matthew: Excellent. Excellent. So what would you say to someone that you were there in the original group, and a lot of people have apprehensions about joining programs, you know, whether it's true, we're kind of at a point now, where we've had many, many winners, and if not any losers on the track record, actually no losses on the track record. So it's almost too good to be true. So people are naturally skeptical. What would you say to someone that, you know, there's going to be next group and a group after that, and people join in this program? So what would you say to someone that's kind of on the fence about joining this program? Kevin: Well, if they see any of these interviews from the current market power group, I gotta believe take it from the member, the current members and what they're saying, and their results, trust, the back tested data is real. And ever since we, we joined market power, the program to your point hasn't had a losing trade yet. So it works. I mean, the data speaks for itself, and they can if they're apprehensive, start slow, kind of like what I did and get comfortable with it. And you'll quickly, quickly get more confidence in the program. Matthew: Excellent. Well, wise words, I mean, you know, it's really important, you hit on some really important points that, you know, patients taking your time, and really kind of just trusting yourself. I mean, give it you know, giving something a try and, you know, the worst possible thing that can happen, you know, so that's great. So I really want to thank you for taking the time today. I really appreciate it and you know, sharing your experience, so really great having you on. Kevin: Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you, Matthew. All right. Thank you. Have a great day. You too.

Matthew Prince, Co-founder & CEO at Cloudflare, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss how and why Cloudflare is working to solve some of the Internet's biggest problems. Matthew reveals some of his biggest issues with cloud providers, including the tendency to charge more for egress than ingress and the fact that the various clouds don't compete on a feature vs. feature basis. Corey and Matthew also discuss how Cloudflare is working to change those issues so the Internet is a better and more secure place. Matthew also discusses how transparency has been key to winning trust in the community and among Cloudflare's customers, and how he hopes the Internet and cloud providers will evolve over time.About MatthewMatthew Prince is co-founder and CEO of Cloudflare. Cloudflare's mission is to help build a better Internet. Today the company runs one of the world's largest networks, which spans more than 200 cities in over 100 countries. Matthew is a World Economic Forum Technology Pioneer, a member of the Council on Foreign Relations, winner of the 2011 Tech Fellow Award, and serves on the Board of Advisors for the Center for Information Technology and Privacy Law. Matthew holds an MBA from Harvard Business School where he was a George F. Baker Scholar and awarded the Dubilier Prize for Entrepreneurship. He is a member of the Illinois Bar, and earned his J.D. from the University of Chicago and B.A. in English Literature and Computer Science from Trinity College. He's also the co-creator of Project Honey Pot, the largest community of webmasters tracking online fraud and abuse.Links Referenced: Cloudflare: https://www.cloudflare.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/eastdakota TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. One of the things we talk about here, an awful lot is cloud providers. There sure are a lot of them, and there's the usual suspects that you would tend to expect with to come up, and there are companies that work within their ecosystem. And then there are the enigmas.Today, I'm talking to returning guest Matthew Prince, Cloudflare CEO and co-founder, who… well first, welcome back, Matthew. I appreciate your taking the time to come and suffer the slings and arrows a second time.Matthew: Corey, thanks for having me.Corey: What I'm trying to do at the moment is figure out where Cloudflare lives in the context of the broad ecosystem because you folks have released an awful lot. You had this vaporware-style announcement of R2, which was an S3 competitor, that then turned out to be real. And oh, it's always interesting, when vapor congeals into something that actually exists. Cloudflare Workers have been around for a while and I find that they become more capable every time I turn around. You have Cloudflare Tunnel which, to my understanding, is effectively a VPN without the VPN overhead. And it feels that you are coming at building a cloud provider almost from the other side than the traditional cloud provider path. Is it accurate? Am I missing something obvious? How do you see yourselves?Matthew: Hey, you know, I think that, you know, you can often tell a lot about a company by what they measure and what they measure themselves by. And so, if you're at a traditional, you know, hyperscale public cloud, an AWS or a Microsoft Azure or a Google Cloud, the key KPI that they focus on is how much of a customer's data are they hoarding, effectively? They're all hoarding clouds, fundamentally. Whereas at Cloudflare, we focus on something of it's very different, which is, how effectively are we moving a customer's data from one place to another? And so, while the traditional hyperscale public clouds are all focused on keeping your data and making sure that they have as much of it, what we're really focused on is how do we make sure your data is wherever you need it to be and how do we connect all of the various things together?So, I think it's exactly right, where we start with a network and are kind of building more functions on top of that network, whereas other companies start really with a database—the traditional hyperscale public clouds—and the network is sort of an afterthought on top of it, just you know, a cost center on what they're delivering. And I think that describes a lot of the difference between us and everyone else. And so oftentimes, we work very much in conjunction with. A lot of our customers use hyperscale public clouds and Cloudflare, but increasingly, there are certain applications, there's certain data that just makes sense to live inside the network itself, and in those cases, customers are using things like R2, they're using our Workers platform in order to be able to build applications that will be available everywhere around the world and incredibly performant. And I think that is fundamentally the difference. We're all about moving data between places, making sure it's available everywhere, whereas the traditional hyperscale public clouds are all about hoarding that data in one place.Corey: I want to clarify that when you say hoard, I think of this, from my position as a cloud economist, as effectively in an economic story where hoarding the data, they get to charge you for hosting it, they get to charge you serious prices for egress. I've had people mishear that before in a variety of ways, usually distilled down to, “Oh, and their data mining all of their customers' data.” And I want to make sure that that's not the direction that you intend the term to be used. If it is, then great, we can talk about that, too. I just want to make sure that I don't get letters because God forbid we get letters for things that we say in the public.Matthew: No, I mean, I had an aunt who was a hoarder and she collected every piece of everything and stored it somewhere in her tiny little apartment in the panhandle of Florida. I don't think she looked at any of it and for the most part, I don't think that AWS or Google or Microsoft are really using your data in any way that's nefarious, but they're definitely not going to make it easy for you to get it out of those places; they're going to make it very, very expensive. And again, what they're measuring is how much of a customer's data are they holding onto whereas at Cloudflare we're measuring how much can we enable you to move your data around and connected wherever you need it. And again, I think that that kind of gets to the fundamental difference between how we think of the world and how I think the hyperscale public clouds thing of the world. And it also gets to where are the places where it makes sense to use Cloudflare, and where are the places that it makes sense to use an AWS or Google Cloud or Microsoft Azure.Corey: So, I have to ask, and this gets into the origin story trope a bit, but what radicalized you? For me, it was the realization one day that I could download two terabytes of data from S3 once, and it would cost significantly more than having Amazon.com ship me a two-terabyte hard drive from their store.Matthew: I think that—so Cloudflare started with the basic idea that the internet's not as good as it should be. If we all knew what the internet was going to be used for and what we're all going to depend on it for, we would have made very different decisions in how it was designed. And we would have made sure that security was built in from day one, we would have—you know, the internet is very reliable and available, but there are now airplanes that can't land if the internet goes offline, they are shopping transactions shut down if the internet goes offline. And so, I don't think we understood—we made it available to some extent, but not nearly to the level that we all now depend on it. And it wasn't as fast or as efficient as it possibly could be. It's still very dependent on the geography of where data is located.And so, Cloudflare started out by saying, “Can we fix that? Can we go back and effectively patch the internet and make it what it should have been when we set down the original protocols in the '60s, '70s, and '80s?” But can we go back and say, can we build a new, sort of, overlay on the internet that solves those problems: make it more secure, make it more reliable, make it faster and more efficient? And so, I think that that's where we started, and as a result of, again, starting from that place, it just made fundamental sense that our job was, how do you move data from one place to another and do it in all of those ways? And so, where I think that, again, the hyperscale public clouds measure themselves by how much of a customer's data are they hoarding; we measure ourselves by how easy are we making it to securely, reliably, and efficiently move any piece of data from one place to another.And so, I guess, that is radical compared to some of the business models of the traditional cloud providers, but it just seems like what the internet should be. And that's our North Star and that's what just continues to drive us and I think is a big reason why more and more customers continue to rely on Cloudflare.Corey: The thing that irks me potentially the most in the entire broad strokes of cloud is how the actions of the existing hyperscalers have reflected mostly what's going on in the larger world. Moore's law has been going on for something like 100 years now. And compute continues to get faster all the time. Storage continues to cost less year over year in a variety of ways. But they have, on some level, tricked an entire generation of businesses into believing that network bandwidth is this precious, very finite thing, and of course, it's going to be ridiculously expensive. You know, unless you're taking it inbound, in which case, oh, by all means back the truck around. It'll be great.So, I've talked to founders—or prospective founders—who had ideas but were firmly convinced that there was no economical way to build it. Because oh, if I were to start doing real-time video stuff, well, great, let's do the numbers on this. And hey, that'll be $50,000 a minute, if I read the pricing page correctly, it's like, well, you could get some discounts if you ask nicely, but it doesn't occur to them that they could wind up asking for a 98% discount on these things. Everything is measured in a per gigabyte dimension and that just becomes one of those things where people are starting to think about and meter something that—from my days in data centers where you care about the size of the pipe and not what's passing through it—to be the wrong way of thinking about things.Matthew: A little of this is that everybody is colored by their experience of dealing with their ISP at home. And in the United States, in a lot of the world, ISPs are built on the old cable infrastructure. And if you think about the cable infrastructure, when it was originally laid down, it was all one-directional. So, you know, if you were turning on cable in your house in a pre-internet world, data fl—Corey: Oh, you'd watch a show and your feedback was yelling at the TV, and that's okay. They would drop those packets.Matthew: And there was a tiny, tiny, tiny bit of data that would go back the other direction, but cable was one-directional. And so, it actually took an enormous amount of engineering to make cable bi-directional. And that's the reason why if you're using a traditional cable company as your ISP, typically you will have a large amount of download capacity, you'll have, you know, a 100 megabits of down capacity, but you might only have a 10th of that—so maybe ten megabits—of upload capacity. That is an artifact of the cable system. That is not just the natural way that the internet works.And the way that it is different, that wholesale bandwidth works, is that when you sign up for wholesale bandwidth—again, as you phrase it, you're not buying this many bytes that flows over the line; you're buying, effectively, a pipe. You know, the late Senator Ted Stevens said that the internet is just a series of tubes and got mocked mercilessly, but the internet is just a series of tubes. And when Cloudflare or AWS or Google or Microsoft buys one of those tubes, what they pay for is the diameter of the tube, the amount that can fit through it. And the nature of this is you don't just get one tube, you get two. One that is down and one that is up. And they're the same size.And so, if you've got a terabit of traffic coming down and zero going up, that costs exactly the same as a terabit going up and zero going down, which costs exactly the same as a terabit going down and a terabit going up. It is different than your home, you know, cable internet connection. And that's the thing that I think a lot of people don't understand. And so, as you pointed out, but the great tragedy of the cloud is that for nothing other than business reasons, these hyperscale public cloud companies don't charge you anything to accept data—even though that is actually the more expensive of the two operations for that because writes are more expensive than reads—but the inherent fact that they were able to suck the data in means that they have the capacity, at no additional cost, to be able to send that data back out. And so, I think that, you know, the good news is that you're starting to see some providers—so Cloudflare, we've never charged for egress because, again, we think that over time, bandwidth prices go to zero because it just makes sense; it makes sense for ISPs, it makes sense for connectiv—to be connected to us.And that's something that we can do, but even in the cases of the cloud providers where maybe they're all in one place and somebody has to pay to backhaul the traffic around the world, maybe there's some cost, but you're starting to see some pressure from some of the more forward-leaning providers. So Oracle, I think has done a good job of leaning in and showing how egress fees are just out of control. But it's crazy that in some cases, you have a 4,000x markup on AWS bandwidth fees. And that's assuming that they're paying the same rates as what we would get at Cloudflare, you know, even though we are a much smaller company than they are, and they should be able to get even better prices.Corey: Yes, if there's one thing Amazon is known for, it as being bad at negotiating. Yeah, sure it is. I'm sure that they're just a terrific joy to be a vendor to.Matthew: Yeah, and I think that fundamentally what the price of bandwidth is, is tied very closely to what the cost of a port on a router costs. And what we've seen over the course of the last ten years is that cost has just gone enormously down where the capacity of that port has gone way up and the just physical cost, the depreciated cost that port has gone down. And yet, when you look at Amazon, you just haven't seen a decrease in the cost of bandwidth that they're passing on to customers. And so, again, I think that this is one of the places where you're starting to see regulators pay attention, we've seen efforts in the EU to say whatever you charge to take data out is the same as what you should charge it to put data in. We're seeing the FTC start to look at this, and we're seeing customers that are saying that this is a purely anti-competitive action.And, you know, I think what would be the best and healthiest thing for the cloud by far is if we made it easy to move between various cloud providers. Because right now the choice is, do I use AWS or Google or Microsoft, whereas what I think any company out there really wants to be able to do is they want to be able to say, “I want to use this feature at AWS because they're really good at that and I want to use this other feature at Google because they're really good at that, and I want to us this other feature at Microsoft, and I want to mix and match between those various things.” And I think that if you actually got cloud providers to start competing on features as opposed to competing on their overall platform, we'd actually have a much richer and more robust cloud environment, where you'd see a significantly improved amount of what's going on, as opposed to what we have now, which is AWS being mediocre at everything.Corey: I think that there's also a story where for me, the egress is annoying, but so is the cross-region and so is the cross-AZ, which in many cases costs exactly the same. And that frustrates me from the perspective of, yes, if you have two data centers ten miles apart, there is some startup costs to you in running fiber between them, however you want to wind up with that working, but it's a sunk cost. But at the end of that, though, when you wind up continuing to charge on a per gigabyte basis to customers on that, you're making them decide on a very explicit trade-off of, do I care more about cost or do I care more about reliability? And it's always going to be an investment decision between those two things, but when you make the reasonable approach of well, okay, an availability zone rarely goes down, and then it does, you get castigated by everyone for, “Oh it even says in their best practice documents to go ahead and build it this way.” It's funny how a lot of the best practice documents wind up suggesting things that accrue primarily to a cloud provider's benefit. But that's the way of the world I suppose.I just know, there's a lot of customer frustration on it and in my client environments, it doesn't seem to be very acute until we tear apart a bill and look at where they're spending money, and on what, at which point, the dawning realization, you can watch it happen, where they suddenly realize exactly where their money is going—because it's relatively impenetrable without that—and then they get angry. And I feel like if people don't know what they're being charged for, on some level, you've messed up.Matthew: Yeah. So, there's cost to running a network, but there's no reason other than limiting competition why you would charge more to take data out than you would put data in. And that's a puzzle. The cross-region thing, you know, I think where we're seeing a lot of that is actually oftentimes, when you've got new technologies that come out and they need to take advantage of some scarce resource. And so, AI—and all the AI companies are a classic example of this—right now, if you're trying to build a model, an AI model, you are hunting the world for available GPUs at a reasonable price because there's an enormous scarcity of them.And so, you need to move from AWS East to AWS West, to AWS, you know, Singapore, to AWS in Luxembourg and bounce around to find wherever there's GPU availability. And then that is crossed against the fact that these training datasets are huge. You know, I mean, they're just massive, massive, massive amounts of data. And so, what that is doing is you're having these AI companies that are really seeing this get hit in the face, where they literally can't get the capacity they need because of the fact that whatever cloud provider in whatever region they've selected to store their data isn't able to have that capacity. And so, they're getting hit not only by sort of a double whammy of, “I need to move my data to wherever there's capacity. And if I don't do that, then I have to pay some premium, an ever-escalating price for the underlying GPUs.” And God forbid, you have to move from AWS to Google to chase that.And so, we're seeing a lot of companies that are saying, “This doesn't make any sense. We have this enormous training set. If we just put it with Cloudflare, this is data that makes sense to live in the network, fundamentally.” And not everything does. Like, we're not the right place to store your long-term transaction logs that you're only going to look at if you get sued. There are much better places, much more effective places do it.But in those cases where you've got to read data frequently, you've got to read it from different places around the world, and you will need to decrease what those costs of each one of those reads are, what we're seeing is just an enormous amount of demand for that. And I think these AI startups are really just a very clear example of what company after company after company needs, and why R2 has had—which is our zero egress cost S3 competitor—why that is just seeing such explosive growth from a broad set of customers.Corey: Because I enjoy pushing the bounds of how ridiculous I can be on the internet, I wound up grabbing a copy of the model, the Llama 2 model that Meta just released earlier this week as we're recording this. And it was great. It took a little while to download here. I have gigabit internet, so okay, it took some time. But then I wound up with something like 330 gigs of models. Great, awesome.Except for the fact that I do the math on that and just for me as one person to download that, had they been paying the listed price on the AWS website, they would have spent a bit over $30, just for me as one random user to download the model, once. If you can express that into the idea of this is a model that is absolutely perfect for whatever use case, but we want to have it run with some great GPUs available at another cloud provider. Let's move the model over there, ignoring the data it's operating on as well, it becomes completely untenable. It really strikes me as an anti-competitiveness issue.Matthew: Yeah. I think that's it. That's right. And that's just the model. To build that model, you would have literally millions of times more data that was feeding it. And so, the training sets for that model would be many, many, many, many, many, many orders of magnitude larger in terms of what's there. And so, I think the AI space is really illustrating where you have this scarce resource that you need to chase around the world, you have these enormous datasets, it's illustrating how these egress fees are actually holding back the ability for innovation to happen.And again, they are absolutely—there is no valid reason why you would charge more for egress than you do for ingress other than limiting competition. And I think the good news, again, is that's something that's gotten regulators' attention, that's something that's gotten customers' attention, and over time, I think we all benefit. And I think actually, AWS and Google and Microsoft actually become better if we start to have more competition on a feature-by-feature basis as opposed to on an overall platform. The choice shouldn't be, “I use AWS.” And any big company, like, nobody is all-in only on one cloud provider. Everyone is multi-cloud, whether they want to be or not because people end up buying another company or some skunkworks team goes off and uses some other function.So, you are across multiple different clouds, whether you want to be or not. But the ideal, and when I talk to customers, they want is, they want to say, “Well, you know that stuff that they're doing over at Microsoft with AI, that sounds really interesting. I want to use that, but I really like the maturity and robustness of some of the EC2 API, so I want to use that at AWS. And Google is still, you know, the best in the world at doing search and indexing and everything, so I want to use that as well, in order to build my application.” And the applications of the future will inherently stitch together different features from different cloud providers, different startups.And at Cloudflare, what we see is our, sort of, purpose for being is how do we make that stitching as easy as possible, as cost-effective as possible, and make it just make sense so that you have one consistent security layer? And again, we're not about hording the data; we're about connecting all of those things together. And again, you know, from the last time we talked to now, I'm actually much more optimistic that you're going to see, kind of, this revolution where egress prices go down, you get competition on feature-by-features, and that's just going to make every cloud provider better over the long-term.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by Panoptica.  Panoptica simplifies container deployment, monitoring, and security, protecting the entire application stack from build to runtime. Scalable across clusters and multi-cloud environments, Panoptica secures containers, serverless APIs, and Kubernetes with a unified view, reducing operational complexity and promoting collaboration by integrating with commonly used developer, SRE, and SecOps tools. Panoptica ensures compliance with regulatory mandates and CIS benchmarks for best practice conformity. Privacy teams can monitor API traffic and identify sensitive data, while identifying open-source components vulnerable to attacks that require patching. Proactively addressing security issues with Panoptica allows businesses to focus on mitigating critical risks and protecting their interests. Learn more about Panoptica today at panoptica.app.Corey: I don't know that I would trust you folks to the long-term storage of critical data or the store of record on that. You don't have the track record on that as a company the way that you do for being the network interchange that makes everything just work together. There are areas where I'm thrilled to explore and see how it works, but it takes time, at least from the sensible infrastructure perspective of trusting people with track records on these things. And you clearly have the network track record on these things to make this stick. It almost—it seems unfair to you folks, but I view you as Cloudflare is a CDN, that also dabbles in a few other things here in there, though, increasingly, it seems it's CDN and security company are becoming synonymous.Matthew: It's interesting. I remember—and this really is going back to the origin story, but when we were starting Cloudflare, you know, what we saw was that, you know, we watched as software—starting with companies like Salesforce—transition from something that you bought in the box to something that you bought as a service [into 00:23:25] the cloud. We watched as, sort of, storage and compute transition from something that you bought from Dell or HP to something that you rented as a service. And so the fundamental problem that Cloudflare started out with was if the software and the storage and compute are going to move, inherently the security and the networking is going to move as well because it has to be as a service as well, there's no way you can buy a you know, Cisco firewall and stick it in front of your cloud service. You have to be in the cloud as well.So, we actually started very much as a security company. And the objection that everybody had to us as we would sort of go out and describe what we were planning on doing was, “You know, that sounds great, but you're going to slow everything down.” And so, we became just obsessed with latency. And Michelle, my co-founder, and I were business students and we had an advisor, a guy named Tom [Eisenmann 00:24:26] in business school. And I remember going in and that was his objection as well and so we did all this work to figure it out.And obviously, you know, I'd say computer science, and anytime that you have a problem around latency or speed caching is an obvious part of the solution to that. And so, we went in and we said, “Here's how we're going to do it: [unintelligible 00:24:47] all this protocol optimization stuff, and here's how we're going to distribute it around the world and get close to where users are. And we're going to use caching in the places where we can do caching.” And Tom said, “Oh, you're building a CDN.” And I remember looking at him and then I'm looking at Michelle. And Michelle is Canadian, and so I was like, “I don't know that I'm building a Canadian, but I guess. I don't know.”And then, you know, we walked out in the hall and Michelle looked at me and she's like, “We have to go figure out what the CDN thing is.” And we had no idea what a CDN was. And even when we learned about it, we were like, that business doesn't make any sense. Like because again, the CDNs were the first ones to really charge for bandwidth. And so today, we have effectively built, you know, a giant CDN and are the fastest in the world and do all those things.But we've always given it away basically for free because fundamentally, what we're trying to do is all that other stuff. And so, we actually started with security. Security is—you know, my—I've been working in security now for over 25 years and that's where my background comes from, and if you go back and look at what the original plan was, it was how do we provide that security as a service? And yeah, you need to have caching because caching makes sense. What I think is the difference is that in order to do that, in order to be able to build that, we had to build a set of developer tools for our own team to allow them to build things as quickly as possible.And, you know, if you look at Cloudflare, I think one of the things we're known for is just the rapid, rapid, rapid pace of innovation. And so, over time, customers would ask us, “How do you innovate so fast? How do you build things fast?” And part of the answer to that, there are lots of ways that we've been able to do that, but part of the answer to that is we built a developer platform for our own team, which was just incredibly flexible, allowed you to scale to almost any level, took care of a lot of that traditional SRE functions just behind the scenes without you having to think about it, and it allowed our team to be really fast. And our customers are like, “Wow, I want that too.”And so, customer after customer after customer after customer was asking and saying, you know, “We have those same problems. You know, if we're a big e-commerce player, we need to be able to build something that can scale up incredibly quickly, and we don't have to think about spinning up VMs or containers or whatever, we don't have to think about that. You know, our customers are around the world. We don't want to have to pick a region for where we're going to deploy code.” And so, where we built Cloudflare Workers for ourself first, customers really pushed us to make it available to them as well.And that's the way that almost any good developer platform starts out. That's how AWS started. That's how, you know, the Microsoft developer platform, and so the Apple developer platform, the Salesforce developer platform, they all start out as internal tools, and then someone says, “Can you expose this to us as well?” And that's where, you know, I think that we have built this. And again, it's very opinionated, it is right for certain applications, it's never going to be the right place to run SAP HANA, but the company that builds the tool [crosstalk 00:27:58]—Corey: I'm not convinced there is a right place to run SAP HANA, but that's probably unfair of me.Matthew: Yeah, but there is a startup out there, I guarantee you, that's building whatever the replacement for SAP HANA is. And I think it's a better than even bet that Cloudflare Workers is part of their stack because it solves a lot of those fundamental challenges. And that's been great because it is now allowing customer after customer after customer, big and large startups and multinationals, to do things that you just can't do with traditional legacy hyperscale public cloud. And so, I think we're sort of the next generation of building that. And again, I don't think we set out to build a developer platform for third parties, but we needed to build it for ourselves and that's how we built such an effective tool that now so many companies are relying on.Corey: As a Cloudflare customer myself, I think that one of the things that makes you folks standalone—it's why I included security as well as CDN is one of the things I trust you folks with—has been—Matthew: I still think CDN is Canadian. You will never see us use that term. It's like, Gartner was like, “You have to submit something for the CDN-like ser—” and we ended up, like, being absolute top-right in it. But it's a space that is inherently going to zero because again, if bandwidth is free, I'm not sure what—this is what the internet—how the internet should work. So yeah, anyway.Corey: I agree wholeheartedly. But what I've always enjoyed, and this is probably going to make me sound meaner than I intend it to, it has been your outages. Because when computers inherently at some point break, which is what they do, you personally and you as a company have both taken a tone that I don't want to say gleeful, but it's sort of the next closest thing to it regarding the postmortem that winds up getting published, the explanation of what caused it, the transparency is unheard of at companies that are your scale, where usually they want to talk about these things as little as possible. Whereas you've turned these into things that are educational to those of us who don't have the same scale to worry about but can take things from that are helpful. And that transparency just counts for so much when we're talking about things as critical as security.Matthew: I would definitely not describe it as gleeful. It is incredibly painful. And we, you know, we know we let customers down anytime we have an issue. But we tend not to make the same mistake twice. And the only way that we really can reliably do that is by being just as transparent as possible about exactly what happened.And we hope that others can learn from the mistakes that we made. And so, we own the mistakes we made and we talk about them and we're transparent, both internally but also externally when there's a problem. And it's really amazing to just see how much, you know, we've improved over time. So, it's actually interesting that, you know, if you look across—and we measure, we test and measure all the big hyperscale public clouds, what their availability and reliability is and measure ourselves against it, and across the board, second half of 2021 and into the first half of 2022 was the worst for every cloud provider in terms of reliability. And the question is why?And the answer is, Covid. I mean, the answer to most things over the last three years is in one way, directly or indirectly, Covid. But what happened over that period of time was that in April of 2020, internet traffic and traffic to our service and everyone who's like us doubled over the course of a two-week period. And there are not many utilities that you can imagine that if their usage doubles, that you wouldn't have a problem. Imagine the sewer system all of a sudden has twice as much sewage, or the electrical grid as twice as much demand, or the freeways have twice as many cars. Like, things break down.And especially the European internet came incredibly close to just completely failing at that time. And we all saw where our bottlenecks were. And what's interesting is actually the availability wasn't so bad in 2020 because people were—they understood the absolute critical importance that while we're in the middle of a pandemic, we had to make sure the internet worked. And so, we—there were a lot of sleepless nights, there's a—and not just at with us, but with every provider that's out there. We were all doing Herculean tasks in order to make sure that things came online.By the time we got to the sort of the second half of 2021, what everybody did, Cloudflare included, was we looked at it, and we said, “Okay, here were where the bottlenecks were. Here were the problems. What can we do to rearchitect our systems to do that?” And one of the things that we saw was that we effectively treated large data centers as one big block, and if you had certain pieces of equipment that failed in a way, that you would take that entire data center down and then that could have cascading effects across traffic as it shifted around across our network. And so, we did the work to say, “Let's take that one big data center and divide it effectively into multiple independent units, where you make sure that they're all on different power suppliers, you make sure they're all in different [crosstalk 00:32:52]”—Corey: [crosstalk 00:32:51] harder than it sounds. When you have redundant things, very often, the thing that takes you down the most is the heartbeat that determines whether something next to it is up or not. It gets a false reading and suddenly, they're basically trying to clobber each other to death. So, this is a lot harder than it sounds like.Matthew: Yeah, and it was—but what's interesting is, like, we took it all that into account, but the act of fixing things, you break things. And that was not just true at Cloudflare. If you look across Google and Microsoft and Amazon, everybody, their worst availability was second half of 2021 or into 2022. But it both internally and externally, we talked about the mistakes we made, we talked about the challenges we had, we talked about—and today, we're significantly more resilient and more reliable because of that. And so, transparency is built into Cloudflare from the beginning.The earliest story of this, I remember, there was a 15-year-old kid living in Long Beach, California who bought my social security number off of a Russian website that had hacked a bank that I'd once used to get a mortgage. He then use that to redirect my cell phone voicemail to a voicemail box he controlled. He then used that to get into my personal email. He then used that to find a zero-day vulnerability in Google's corporate email where he could privilege-escalate from my personal email into Google's corporate email, which is the provider that we use for our email service. And then he used that as an administrator on our email at the time—this is back in the early days of Cloudflare—to get into another administration account that he then used to redirect one of Cloud Source customers to a website that he controlled.And thankfully, it wasn't, you know, the FBI or the Central Bank of Brazil, which were all Cloudflare customers. Instead, it was 4chan because he was a 15-year-old hacker kid. And we fix it pretty quickly and nobody knew who Cloudflare was at the time. And so potential—Corey: The potential damage that could have been caused at that point with that level of access to things, like, that is such a ridiculous way to use it.Matthew: And—yeah [laugh]—my temptation—because it was embarrassing. He took a bunch of stuff from my personal email and he put it up on a website, which just to add insult to injury, was actually using Cloudflare as well. And I wanted to sweep it under the rug. And our team was like, “That's not the right thing to do. We're fundamentally a security company and we need to talk about when we make mistakes on security.” And so, we wrote a huge postmortem on, “Here's all the stupid things that we did that caused this hack to happen.” And by the way, it wasn't just us. It was AT&T, it was Google. I mean, there are a lot of people that ended up being involved.Corey: It builds trust with that stuff. It's painful in the short term, but I believe with the benefit of hindsight, it was clearly the right call.Matthew: And it was—and I remember, you know, pushing ‘publish' on the blog post and thinking, “This is going to be the end of the company.” And quite the opposite happened, which was all of a sudden, we saw just an incredible amount of people who signed up the next day saying, “If you're going to be that transparent about something that was incredibly embarrassing when you didn't have to be, then that's the sort of thing that actually makes me trust that you're going to be transparent the future.” And I think learning that lesson early on, has been just an incredibly valuable lesson for us and made us the company that we are today.Corey: A question that I have for you about the idea of there being no reason to charge in one direction but not the other. There's something that I'm not sure that I understand on this. If I run a website, to use your numbers of a terabit out—because it's a web server—and effectively nothing in—because it's a webserver; other than the request, nothing really is going to come in—that ingress bandwidth becomes effectively unused and also free. So, if I have another use case where I'm paying for it anyway, if I'm primarily caring about an outward direction, sure, you can send things in for free. Now, there's a lot of nuance that goes into that. But I'm curious as to what the—is their fundamental misunderstanding in that analysis of the bandwidth market?Matthew: No. And I think that's exactly, exactly right. And it's actually interesting. At Cloudflare, our infrastructure team—which is the one that manages our connections to the outside world, manages the hardware we have—meets on a quarterly basis with our product team. It's called the Hot and Cold Meeting.And what they do is they go over our infrastructure, and they say, “Okay, where are we hot? Where do we have not enough capacity?” If you think of any given server, an easy way to think of a server is that it has, sort of, four resources that are available to it. This is, kind of, vast simplification, but one is the connectivity to the outside world, both transit in and out. The second is the—Corey: Otherwise it's just a complicated space heater.Matthew: Yeah [laugh]. The other is the CPU. The other is the longer-term storage. We use only SSDs, but sort of, you know, hard drives or SSD storage. And then the fourth is the short-term storage, or RAM that's in that server.And so, at any given moment, there are going to be places where we are running hot, where we have a sort of capacity level that we're targeting and we're over that capacity level, but we're also going to be running cold in some of those areas. And so, the infrastructure team and the product team get together and the product team has requests on, you know, “Here's some more places we would be great to have more infrastructure.” And we're really good at deploying that when we need to, but the infrastructure team then also says, “Here are the places where we're cold, where we have excess capacity.” And that turns into products at Cloudflare. So, for instance, you know, the reason that we got into the zero-trust space was very much because we had all this excess capacity.We have 100 times the capacity of something like Zscaler across our network, and we can add that—that is primar—where most of our older products are all about outward traffic, the zero-trust products are all about inward traffic. And the reason that we can do everything that Zscaler does, but for, you know, a much, much, much more affordable prices, we going to basically just layer that on the network that already exists. The reason we don't charge for the bandwidth behind DDoS attacks is DDoS attacks are always about inbound traffic and we have just a ton of excess capacity around that inbound traffic. And so, that unused capacity is a resource that we can then turn into products, and very much that conversation between our product team and our infrastructure team drives how we think about building new products. And we're always trying to say how can we get as much utilization out of every single piece of equipment that we run everywhere in the world.The way we build our network, we don't have custom machines or different networks for every products. We build all of our machines—they come in generations. So, we're on, I think, generation 14 of servers where we spec a server and it has, again, a certain amount of each of those four [bits 00:39:22] of capacity. But we can then deploy that server all around the world, and we're buying many, many, many of them at any given time so we can get the best cost on that. But our product team is very much in constant communication with our infrastructure team and saying, “What more can we do with the capacity that we have?” And then we pass that on to our customers by adding additional features that work across our network and then doing it in a way that's incredibly cost-effective.Corey: I really want to thank you for taking the time to, basically once again, suffer slings and arrows about networking, security, cloud, economics, and so much more. If people want to learn more, where's the best place for them to find you?Matthew: You know, used to be an easy question to answer because it was just, you know, go on Twitter and find me but now we have all these new mediums. So, I'm @eastdakota on Twitter. I'm eastdakota.com on Bluesky. I'm @real_eastdakota on Threads. And so, you know, one way or another, if you search for eastdakota, you'll come across me somewhere out there in the ether.Corey: And we will, of course, put links to that in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it.Matthew: It's great to talk to you, Corey.Corey: Matthew Prince, CEO and co-founder of Cloudflare. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry, insulting comment that I will of course not charge you inbound data rates on.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

Jim and co-host Matthew Britt, with guest Michael Hoffman, co-founder of Food Forest Montana, inspire listeners on learning how to use permaculture principles to create a business and a community. They teach the same principles shared with major investors, encouraging others to explore:  Regenerative entrepreneurship Inspiring and empowering communities to grow food by putting permaculture nurseries, called Freedom Farm Academies, in every community around the world. FREEDOM FARM ACADEMY: REGENERATIVE BUILDING AND LIVING Jim: “ How this came about is so relevant. I'm building a fully stacked Food Forest off grid community here in central Florida.  And every single person who comes on one of our tours is blown away and becomes an advocate immediately because a Food Forest is the most intense sensory experience. It incorporates all the senses. You walk through and you can feel the vibration. You can taste it, smell it and touch it. This is why bringing these to your community is going to change the world.” –“All paths to lasting freedom must include decentralization of food, water and energy.”  SPECIFICATIONS: –The base layer is a one quarter-acre Food Forest package. –”Symphony of elements” you can fit into one area…all working well to help you be self-reliant. –Delivery considerations of supplies. –Best building methods for geographical areas. –Utilizing hearty local stock. –Selling affiliate products/collaborating with people in the market  (i.e., rain water experts, solar experts, bridge those connections). –A farm stand within to sell some local produce. –Educational component (and to show it's not hard to grow food). –Beautiful pond. –Options (chickens, hens, depending on community regulations). –Greenhouse. –Annual freedom garden: looking at the year-one strategy of how you can provide for yourself and your family.   –Food fences and herb spirals. –Compost tea brewer. –Perennials (demonstrate freedom on the site). –Homestead elements that maximize abundance, including an apiary for pollinating.  –Storability for food, such as a root cellar. –The building itself represents the best ecological materials, methods and practices for the region. –Connecting with Master Gardeners to teach the local community. THE CAREFUL THOUGHT BEHIND DESIGNS: Stacking functions to create profit for the community –Fertigation: Fertilizing and irrigating. –Planting in certain areas to catch an extra layer of nutrients. –The children's ready-to-eat forage area. MATTHEW: “Everything about permaculture is thought in that way:  How do you stack the functions going on, on your property?” VALUE: –How valuable is food? –How valuable is teaching your children about how to grow food? –How valuable is it to collect the free energy from the sun? –How valuable is it to use rainwater to make compost tea? –Partnering with top marketer, and Emmy-award teams, who understand our freedom-based model and bring these concepts to the world. –40 permaculture designers in eight different countries to customize based on property and zone. – Install (140 installers) and education teams sent to each location to train the Freedom Farm Academy operator, who will be certified. –Projected payoff 4 to 6 years with no growth considered. COMMEMORATIVE PLAQUES: MICHAEL:  “The Freedom Farm Academy is about building a legacy of freedom. And right now, we're at a tipping point in history. By supporting Freedom Farm Academy you're cementing your name into the right side of history.  We know we're going to win this.” MATTHEW: “You will immediately see the health of people in that community improve, the mental health of those people improve and I would bet to say chronic disease go through a bit of a decline as people are getting healthier foods right from Mother Nature, from plant to mouth.” THOSE WITH RESOURCES TO INVEST, or HAVE LAND, are encouraged to reach out to be part of the Freedom Farm Academy legacy. MATTHEW: “We know as we grow food, and put it back into the hands of the people, it creates freedom that we all deserve. And, abundance is already here.  It's just a matter of grasping it.” ABOUT MICHAEL HOFFMAN: Director of Self-Reliant Living and Community Development, Food Forest Abundance  Co-founder (with his family) of Food Forest Montana WEBSITE: https://www.foodforestmontana.com EMAIL: Office@foodforestmontana.com Michael provides emergency preparedness and homestead consultations to the Food Forest Abundance community. His mission is to educate, equip and empower others to become self-reliant. He started his homesteading journey in the Southwest, and relocated to Montana, seeing it as a better place to raise a family. Michael and his Food Forest Montana company was founded by this “Family of Three,” with a dream to change the world by living more simply, closer to nature, and becoming completely self-sufficient. He is passionate about growing a food forest as a way to become a part of the solution, rather than being a part of the problem.  “It allows you the opportunity to become a producer, instead of just a consumer, to not only provide food for yourself, but to share your abundance with your local community,” he shares. Company Vision: For a sustainable, healthy, and abundant society for our grandchildren and beyond.   Food forests growing in every community. Solar on every roof, water catchment, filtering, and storage at every home. “We believe in sustainable architecture, and making natural wellness products widely available. Food deserts turned to food forests!” Michael  appeared (1/25/22) on The Corbett Report, an independent, listener-supported alternative news source. It was founded by award-winning investigative journalist James Corbett and operates on the principle of open source intelligence and provides podcasts, interviews, articles and videos about breaking news and important issues.  In his interview, Michael talks about the abundance growing right under our feet and how to eat a pine tree: https://www.corbettreport.com/solutionswatch-pinetree/ Food Forest Abundance: Website: https://foodforestabundance.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FoodForestAbundance Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/foodforestabundance/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/FFAbundance LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/food-forest-abundance/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIb8p5eWZl8 The Jim Gale Show: https://linktr.ee/jimgaleshow Produced by: https://socialchameleon.us/

Pastor David concludes our sermon series this week and gives us perspective on the work of reconciliation that we're called to in Christ and to the world. He teaches primarily on two phrases Jesus declares that are recorded in the book of Matthew: “You are the salt of the earth” and, “You are the light of the world.”Scripture referenced: Matthew 5:13-16

Matthew Hunt built and sold two agencies over the past decade. Automation Wolf is his third iteration. In his second agency, after losing almost two years of momentum because he never “got around” to marketing his own business, he hired another marketing agency to promote his agency. Although he was not completely satisfied with the result, he says, “80 percent done is better than not done at all” and his agency finally gained momentum and grew. In this interview, Matthew explains his understanding of what a lot of agencies don't understand – that clients are “not looking for a do-it-yourself model or a done-with-you model” and “not looking to coach-and-consult it.” He claims, “They're looking for done-for-you model.”  Matthew believes that most agencies should probably not be trying to do for themselves what they do for their clients. He has found that webinars, epic inbound-outbound marketing efforts, and labyrinthine Rube-Goldberg-machine sales funnels don't work. He proposes that the most important website component for agencies with under a million dollars in annual revenue is a “ten-minute amplifier video,” where the owner-founder (usually an agency's best salesperson) articulates the transformation the agency can provide for its clients. Skip the blogs. Skip the podcasts. The abbreviated VSL (video sales letter, which Matthew says needs to be “done right”), social proofs of success (before-and-after reports, analytics screenshots, and brief descriptions of how the agency effected change), a scrolling list of customer testimonials, and the price are all a smaller agency needs to drive business. The goal is to get as few leads as possible but to get pre-qualified, pre-sold leads and to close them all.  As it grows, the “filter” for an agency is not how much money it will take to scale, but how much time you can put into it. Matthew holds that low effort, high-impact demand generation is the most effective way to generate business. He recommends connecting with clients and potential clients on LinkedIn and posting helpful, short-form (snackable) content to build relationships and entice potential customers to the agency's VSL. Matthew says, “People only buy from people they know, like, and trust, and no selling can be done until you actually establish trust.” He then goes on to say that the biggest mistake many people make with inbound and outbound is they're always trying to sell too early.” Matthew discusses the challenges an agency faces in building an agency team and a “referral engine” and the strategies he has employed to move his agency quickly through the phases of startup . . . stay up . . . and scale up. He can be found as Matthew Hunt on LinkedIn or on his agency's website at: automationwolf.com. ROB: Welcome to The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host Rob Kischuk and I am joined today by Matthew Hunt who is the founder at Automation Wolf based in Toronto Ontario, welcome to the podcast, Matthew. MATTHEW: Thanks, Rob. Thanks for having me. ROB: It's excellent to have you here. Why don't you start off by giving us the rundown on Automation Wolf? What is your sweet spot? MATTHEW: Automation was created because it was one of my own problems. I wish I had had this service when I built my first two agencies. Most agencies, at the end of the day, suffer from what we call the cobbler's kid goes with no shoes syndrome – where they're so busy taking care of their team and their existing clients that they never get around to doing their own marketing. I remember my second agency, so this is my third agency. I've had two that I sold in the last ten years and built – this is the third one. But my second one, I remember losing almost two years of momentum because I kept thinking we were going to get around to doing our own marketing. Finally, after two years, I finally bit the bullet. I hired another agency to do marketing for our marketing agency. It wasn't done perfectly, but I'll tell you something – 80 percent of done is better than not done at all. So even though I didn't think it was perfect and it wasn't exactly what I wanted, it provided so much momentum. That's when we really started to grow, so sometimes you just got to do it. ROB: What was the lag time from pulling the trigger to impact? Because there's kind of some shortcuts . . . there's some cheats . . . there's some fast forwards you can do and then you really have to do the work and build the engine, right? MATTHEW: Yeah, totally. What's really interesting is another thing a lot of marketing agencies tend to make mistakes with is they think what they do for their clients is what they should do for themselves. Nothing could be further from the truth. I spent a lot of time doing a lot of inbound marketing and then even trying outbound marketing. In general, both were pretty epic failures for my agency. Same thing with webinars or doing other things like this . . . they really did not produce the results that I was after. I would say that's the case for most marketing agencies. They can't understand, or there's two things – one is it becomes sort of, for lack of better vocabulary, but of a mind eff because it works so well for your clients, but then it doesn't work for you. The second thing, right? You're like, “Why is this working for clients but my own damn agency, it doesn't work for.” The second thing is a lot of times the thing that they do for their client isn't the right thing for them because they're not – they shouldn't be using the same filter, The filter you should be using for your own agency is really a different question than the money question. That's usually what people are asking, like “What's the ROI and how much money can I throw at this thing to scale this thing up?” That's not the real problem for them. The real problem is time. How much time can you provide? What you want to look at is, “What is the thing that we can do as an agency that is a low effort but yet high impact? That's the first thing. So, to get things in the right order. Once you use that as a filter, what you're going to discover is, it's much like growing up as a kid – if you've ever raised kids. I've got 3 of them myself now. But they have to learn how to sit up first before they crawl. Then they learn how to crawl and then they learn how to walk, and then they learn how to run. Then, when they get to be – my kids' age now is teens, they start to do backflips off the back shed of the house and you go, “My god! Get off the shed! Why are you on the roof?” Right? But that's a good problem to have. That's one filter. The next thing is really understanding. You know how your ideal clients actually buy and where your best customers come from. Once you understand that, then you start making the right marketing decisions. A lot of agencies, what they don't understand is their clients don't actually want to know how to do something – they're coming to you because they're not looking for a do-it-yourself model or a done-with-you model. They're not looking to coach-and-consult it. They're looking for done-for-you model. They're also busy as well, too. In general, the first thing that most agencies need to do is get their ten-minute amplifier video on their website that explains what sort of transformation they provide for other people. The reason why you want to do this – some people call the VSL, but a VSL is way too long. If it's more than ten minutes, it's too long. That's the first asset you need because, what it does, it multiplies you. Usually, who's the best salesperson in your organization? Yeah, usually owner-founder. If you can create your signature system and you can clearly articulate the transformation that you provide for people – from the before and after state that they're going to receive – in ten minutes or less and you don't gate the video, people will watch it and they will fill out your contact form and you've already done the demo. So, then you're only getting people . . . and you should put the price in there too and that is the only thing you need. And if you're a marketing agency that's under a million dollars per year, if you do anything else besides that VSL and a whack of testimonials down below, you are totally wasting your time. Do not do anything else. Do not blog. Do not create a podcast. Do not. You do not get to collect go and collect your two hundred dollars. That is where you need to start. If you haven't done that, that's the only thing you need to do. Then you need to find a way to get people to that VSL. Getting them there is not as hard as you think. You don't need as many people as you think either, because the goal is not to get lots of leads and fill your calendar with loads of leads. The goal is to get as few leads as possible but close them all. And have them pre-qualified before they get there, right? And if you can have them pre-qualified, pre-sold, then the time that they get to you – you can suck at sales and you can charge more. Because you shouldn't seem like everybody else – which is like all your other competitors – which is probably a sea of sameness. If – just go ahead and do this – please type in digital marketing agency of any kind that you want. You go and do this right? Go to Google right now, I dare you to pause this and go and look. I want you with it, quickly go and look at all the digital marketing websites from city to city to city, from service offer to service offer – you all look exactly the freaking same. Then I dare you to go and look at your Google analytics or whatever analytics tool you want to look at and look at what is the average time on your website. It's probably a minute. What do you think all this other stuff is doing for you at the end of the day? I know you sell this as a service – to blog and create content and to run ads into having these epic crazy labyrinth funnels that one thing triggers to another thing, which triggers this email, and this triggers this upsell, in this downsell and ends up turning into this giant Rube Goldberg machine which is totally cool. Don't get me wrong – I am wowed by it. It is awesome and there was so much work into it, but it didn't do anything for you. It didn't create any transformation. It didn't help you, except for create a whole lot of noise, a whole lot of effort, and provided very little impact for you. So, these are some things I want you to consider. The other thing I want you to consider is usually when you're focused on inbound and/or outbound, it's very, very small thinking. It does not leverage what you have already created because most agencies, right, or businesses, begin organically and grow out of referrals. The business grows, which is awesome. But what happens is the business grows and you get some people on payroll and then you have mouths to feed and mortgages to cover and it starts going, “Oh, crap! This is a serious business!” And then you go, “Oh, a client left.” Or, all of the sudden you have a bad month or Covid hits and shish hits the fan and you're like, “I need a consistent way of getting business,” and so you think the solution is . . . more leads. You're like, “Hey, that worked for my clients and B2C. We sent the gym or the dentist or the lawyer the whatever more business and they're loving it. This is going to work for my agency too.” And wrong. It doesn't, you don't need leads, what you need is a consistent way of getting more referrals and staying top of mind with your existing clientele, with your existing partners with, your existing network at the end of the day, without coming across as being salesy or sleazy because nobody likes to be marketed to. Including you, right? Marketers are the most jaded people in the world, right? Nobody likes to be sold to – so it has to feel invisible. So, if it has to feel invisible, it has to be low effort but high impact. Well, what do you do? What I usually recommend is that you look at doing something called Demand Gen. Demand Gen is just a simple way of saying putting helpful content out there that makes people more awesome and gives you the ability to do one to many selling, ideally to your existing warm network. Now, if you're going to do that, a great place to begin is emailing them if you have a list with your database but more ideally, that feels like marketing, a better thing to do is make sure you're connected with them on a place like LinkedIn and then publish little short snackable content on LinkedIn where they go. They don't go to LinkedIn to consume long-form content or read articles or blogs they go to LinkedIn because they treat it like any other social media network and they're in the mindset to discover, maybe learn something very quickly, and/or most likely procrastinate before and after meetings, right, is what they're doing. If you do, that your warm network will see you being helpful and will keep you top of mind. Then they continue to send you referrals. Good things happen and more opportunities come up because, at the end of the day, people only buy from people they know, like, and trust. No selling can be done until you establish trust. So, the biggest mistake that people make with inbound and outbound is they're always trying to sell too early. It's they're eager beavers, right? ROB: So, we poke in tactically a little bit on LinkedIn. Obviously, strategy level makes sense. Tactically, you get all sorts of advice all over the map. You have your brand page. You have companies developing entire initiatives around getting their team to share their brand content. Sometimes there's just the founder as a salesperson in an authentic way. What kind of mix of activity do you see as effective? It seems to me it's a golden age in LinkedIn right now. I see nothing but opportunity there. But there's a lot of ways to waste time, too. MATTHEW: Totally. So, we have a system that we recommend agency owners follow. It's called the “ACES” method – to keep it simple. Basically, you're asking what kind of content do we create and what is most impactful, right? And how do we do this? Here's how you the ACES method – Authority, Connect, Engage, and Show. Authority is anything that you want to be known for, that you know really well, that you can share – where you can offer a tip and make people more awesome. Connect is anything that hits the heart, the gut, and/or the funny bone – comedy goes a long way. Engage is not necessarily always having to come up with the content – a lot of time you can ask your network, your community, your connections for advice to start conversations. Let them create the content for you to gamify a little bit. Why do you always have to be the one coming up with the content? The last one is Show. We don't tell, we Show. We don't want to come across as braggadocios, right? We don't want to be telling people and beating our chest about how amazing we are. What we want to do is give sneak peeks behind the scene. We want to show before-and-after transformations or screenshots of analytics and growth with a little tip of how you went about doing it. This positions you as an expert on what you're doing by showing. If you do that and then break it up into the different content formats – we've got video, text posts, images, and polls, and then pdf documents – those are basically the core types of content, because you don't know what people enjoy. Do a version of each. I only put a post out per day. That's how you stay top of mind. It's all about consistency, right? They can't trust you if they don't like you. They can't like you if they don't know you. So, step one is about being consistent. The biggest challenge is most people are inconsistent. We all know we've got to go to the gym on a regular basis and eat clean if we want to be fit, right? That this is not brain surgery. Well, it's the same thing with LinkedIn, you need the consistency. The problem is time. It's why most people fail. This is why we created one of our personal branding LinkedIn products. We created a product because this would solve this problem – where someone can spend an hour-and-a-half with us per month and we will create all of their social media, snackable content including for LinkedIn, and post it every single day. The way we do it is we record them via Zoom with the intention that snackable content is the lead domino which gets all the videos, and the videos that inspire all the text posts, the images, the polls, the pdf document carousels, etc., and then we post it for them. Basically, we created a product that allows people to look like they go to the gym every day and eat clean. Yet, they only have to go to the gym once a month for an hour and a half. ROB: It's like a filter for your social media. You just put the filter on, everybody looks good. You hinted at it and I'm curious. You said, you had your previous agencies. You sold them. You had one agency that came in and did things about 80 percent right, and then you started Automation Wolf. Number one, what led you to want to dive back into the fray and then start over again? Number two, what was that difference – the twenty percent between what was done for you and what you felt like needed to be done for others? MATTHEW: Great questions. I sold my shares in my second agency due to partner conflicts. Having partners is a very tricky ship to sail. When it works well, it's amazing. When it doesn't, it's like going through an ugly divorce. It's never fun. So, we went through our divorce and I was not finished with my mission yet on creating the business that I wanted to create. That's what sent me back to the fray now. We had an inbound marketing agency that we were a Goldspot, a Reseller of Hubspot, did PPC, did SEO. We were mostly focused on enterprise clients, mostly Fortune Five Hundred. Very successful agency, did very, very well. I was in a non-compete – to not able to do any sort of inbound marketing for two years – which is fine. When you sell your shares, that's the rightful thing that needs to come up – which led me to doing outbound. Yeah, it was like, “All right, fine. I can't do inbound. I'll do outbound.” So, I started the outbound agency. We basically sprayed and prayed. We basically spammed people on LinkedIn, used LinkedIn automation. We cold emailed you and did all kinds of stuff. Throughout that process, I quickly realized what worked and what didn't work. The reality was outbound sucks even more than inbound and works even less if you really want to piss the whole industry. Inbound is the same thing but when you do inbound and outbound, you're focused on the exact same market which is the 1 to 3 percent of the market that's in market right now. So, you can grow that way. Inbound, you don't feel it emotionally because you don't see all the nos. When you do outbound, you feel it immediately because everybody tells you how much they hate you in the process, right? What the challenge that I realized was – both are not the correct answer. The right answer is actually creating demand first so you can do outbound and inbound. You want to put them into an invisible marketing funnel where you're adding value first and creating demand. Once we switch around to being focused on that – wow! Magic happened. So, we focus a lot on personal branding on LinkedIn so you can connect with people and put them in a controlled environment where they can get to know, like, and trust you. You could do it through an interview series just like you're doing right now, you can do it through community, you can do it through all different ways. There's a lot of different tactics that do it. But, at the end of the day, all we're trying to do is take a group of people and put them in a controlled environment where it doesn't feel like we're marketing and selling to them. Then we can do one-to-many selling to them where they can get to know, like, and trust me and they can go across that trusto meter to like – ding-ding-ding-trust – that once they end up in our pipeline, they're presold. And this way we can suck at sales and we can charge more money. And that's basically the gist of it, at the end of the day, once you set up a system like that and use the right tactics in the right order, you're off to the races. The right order is always not based on money. It's based on your time. ROB: Yeah, it's certainly about kind of getting to that distinctive place. You mentioned you can do a ten-minute video but you've got to look different from the other thousand agency websites that people saw along the way. Peter Thiel put it differently in saying he likes to be a monopoly. You're talking about a way of being a monopoly in the eye of the buyer. When it comes time to buy, you just can't predict, that you can't time it. That ten-minute video, to me – maybe to some people that's a short video – that sounds like a lot. What is the structure of a good ten-minute video that introduces someone to an agency and starts to build that layer of trust? MATTHEW: That's a great question. There's absolutely a format to doing it. I'll tell you the format and the framework that I follow every single time that works like gangbusters. One is, your first thirty seconds should be a big giant epic promise. For example, when it comes to our LinkedIn services, ours is, “How to get new clients right now from LinkedIn, organically. I'm going to show you how to create all your LinkedIn content by only spending one-and-a-half hours with my team each month.” That's it. That's the offer, right? Something like that. The second part is, who it is for, and who it is not for? You can't be all things to everybody. It's really important that you niche down. That's the case. So, for us, we call it out, “Hey! We work with consultants, coaches, people who do B2B, B2B, SAS companies, and agencies. That's, “If you're in B2B and your audience is on LinkedIn, this is for you.” The next thing you need to do is tell them all the things that they want and that they've been lied to. It's really, really important that you shout out that they've been lied to because you have to absolve them of their problems. If you tell them it's their fault, they're not going to listen to you. But if you tell them, “It's someone else's fault that's lied to you,” then you're going to get their attention. Now that you have their attention, you start going through and describing their problems better than they can describe themselves. You need to hit the hot buttons, fears, frustrations, wants, and aspirations. Remember, if you can make it sound like you're reading their mind, you're saying the stuff they're thinking but they won't say out loud, you know you've hit the hot buttons. Once you've been able to describe their problems better than they can themselves, the next thing is to have counterintuitive thinking about what the problem is. It must be something that's new. So, if you'll notice me, I keep playing with this theme, ‘inbound sucks, outbound sucks, but demand gen is right' – here's the old way of doing things versus the new way right? We're playing constantly with FAQ's versus SAQ's, so, frequently-asked questions versus should-ask questions. You know when you discover a problem, the questions you ask to discover it are not going to solve it. You have to ask deeper questions to get there. This is why the five whys exists right? There's a whole system from this – “Why did that happen? Well. why did that? And why did this? Why did that? Why?” And then you get to the root cause of really what's causing the problem and if you can come up with this counterintuitive thinking that is different than everybody else's saying – Boom! That's called positioning and you are no longer in the sea of sameness. You are now unique. You are now monopoly like you said, right? Once you have the monopoly you need to have a very simple signature system that explains what it is that you do. I recommend that everybody have a three-pillar system. So, mine is short-form, long-form, community, which is tied to “know you, like you, trust you.” You have three pillars. Usually you have a three-step process for each pillar, so you have a three-by-three matrix. If you can clearly articulate the matrix, then you're good-to-go to get their attention. You clearly state what you're going to charge, so that it's not a surprise to anybody. Nobody should be coming into your marketing funnel who doesn't know what the approximate price is going to be. You don't want to talk to them. You want to spend a lot of time on repelling just as much as you were attracting. This way, by the time they get to you, they're pretty qualified. You didn't have to spend thirty minutes qualifying them when you could have used an automated ten-minute video to do so, right? Then, a sign of the only thing you need is some sort of social proof of success, of transformation – before-and-afters or a whack of testimonials on your site. If you go to my website today, it's a 1-page website with nothing else that you can do except watch a ten-minute video or read the endless scrolling testimonials that are there of our clients. The only thing you can do is reach out and connect to us, so you have no other options. There's nowhere to be confused about what to do. That business in twelve months has grown an agency from zero to over a million dollars of recurring revenue. ROB: That's solid. It sounds like you're at a price point where, if you're demonstrating results, it recurs at loops. You keep building. You scale the process. All of that clearly makes sense and you've kind of shorthanded. But if you really get down to it, in particular, what are some things you're doing differently this time, what you know? You built two companies before. What did you learn in those – obviously a partnership lesson, but outside of that – what have you learned that's different this time? MATTHEW: Less is more, right? Which we all know. Even this system here that we're doing on-demand gen – we just launch one service per year and perfect it. This last year, we perfected the LinkedIn content creation, demand gen system. It's awesome, man. It's perfect. It took a whole year. They do it really well. Next year, we're adding on a few more services. So, do one thing at a time. The one thing. I think there's a whole book on it – just the one thing, right? So, that's the big lesson – less is more. The next big lesson is, spend a lot of time on operations and hiring, on talent and training your talent, and supporting your team, right? You don't want to have false starts. Your team is everything, especially for an agency. Your highest expense is going to usually be people. People are difficult – more people, more problems. It's not like Biggie said. Biggie said, “Mo money, Mo problems.” It's not. It's more people, more problems, right? So, focus on really developing the team and understanding the team and understanding what that looks like and getting a lot of referrals. That next thing is, if you deliver what you say you're going to deliver and you even come close to coming to what you say you're going deliver, you will get referrals – and a ton of referrals. So, if you get the referral engine going, you get the team going, I would say that you've got a decent startup and a proof of model. The goal from a startup is to get to stay up and then from stay up is to scale up. I believe that you can do it in a three-year period. Usually, year one is startup. In my case, I even had year one as a false start, focusing on the wrong business – which is proof of model really, right? So, proof. So, it's one thing to sell it. It's one thing to keep it. It's a little bit of the balance of two. I was able to sell the cold emailing spamming thing because people want to buy that too, just like inbound. But ultimately it kind of worked. I wasn't really excited about it. It didn't focus on my unique ability. It didn't make me happy. I didn't go to bed going, “Oh, my god! That was a great day!”. It was like, “Oh, my god! I just spammed the world. I'm a fraud, right?” You know, you've got to love what you do, too. But once you get the right thing that people want to buy and then you can keep them, then you've got what's called proof of model and that's really your first year. The second year, and the way I'm looking at this is the first year is proof of model, the second year is getting up or the first years is about getting you out of operations – the day-to-day operations – so, that the second year, you can focus on marketing, selling, and talent acquisition. The third year is scale up that you can get you out of marketing, selling, and talent acquisition. Then once you're out of the third year you have the option at that point to keep it as a running asset because it doesn't take . . . you should only be attending the board meetings and a few other things or you have an asset that you can sell, right? Which is exactly why you bought the business or created the business. Whether you bought it or created it, that's it. If you can't do that in a three-year period, you're probably on the wrong track – you're probably spinning your wheels and not focusing on the right things. That's a very realistic and fair amount of time to build a great business. ROB: It's an interesting mirror that you talk about holding up with the spamming. There were some folks who were involved in starting Sales Loft, which is now a billion-dollar valuation company. Their first product was built around scraping and spamming LinkedIn, harvesting email addresses, that sort of thing. They had a million dollars in revenue around it and they threw the product away because it wasn't really authentic to them. They were selling a sugar high. It sounds like you've been in that world. I've seen the LinkedIn automation in the agency space. We've seen how many sugar high newsfeed optimizations, spamming, SEO, right? SEO used to be about tactics and ways to skirt the rules. We keep having to figure out how to be authentic if we want to build a real business. MATTHEW: It always comes back to the fundamentals. At the end of the day, most people think they have a sales problem or they think they have a lead-gen problem – but they don't. They actually have a community problem and a trust problem. If they made the measurement of the objective to build more community and to build more trust in that community, they would make very different decisions. Same thing, as well, to the mindset about forever business versus a short-term business – because one is focused on tactics and me-me-me-me versus you-you-you-you. Then the same thing even when it comes like creating content. You're very smart to have this podcast because you're focused on being a talent scout instead of being the talent. Being talent is actually really hard. If you look at the biggest and best and fastest-growing companies out there, they focus on two things – one, being a media company is really good talent scouts or two, they focus on the network effect. Okay, if you do that, you have epic growth really, really quick. The reason you have it is this. If you are a talent scout, then you become Tim Ferriss, Joe Rogan, Oprah. What are the experts of absolutely all? Okay. But what are they really good at? What are they really good at doing? Bringing in really interesting people, asking them really interesting questions to teach their audience what to look for and what to look out that builds trust. So then expert comes and goes, okay, and the law of transference passes all that expertise to those hosts. They're the ones who are the sticky ones that everybody is after going forward. They're building what's called a media company. Then those who take that media company flip it into these private communities -- something like real vision television – you name it. They then get the network effect, which is what Facebook is, and Youtube is, and Instagram is, that has exponential growth that it takes on its own life. Once you have the network effect and you have that ability of hosting where you built trust with the community basically – instead of calling it network, call it community – it's a deeper connection, you then have a license to print money – because you can go to that community you want and say, “What is the problem? What is it that you want to solve?”, go find the product or service and connect it with your community, and instantly print money. The end. If you ask yourself, instead, as a business and in B2B, “How do I create more community? How do I build more trust with this? How do I treat this as a forever business?”, you start making really different decisions about what you're going to invest your time and energy and money into at the end of the day. So, it's usually just that you're asking their problems. They're asking, “How do I get more leads and how do I get more sales?” It's a very surface-level question. It's a byproduct. A byproduct of community and trust is lots of leads and sales and rabid buyers who are ready to throw you money. ROB: But there's a lot of work ahead of that.  MATTHEW Yeah. ROB: Lots of good thoughts, lots of distilled knowledge from experience from building businesses, from scaling up. Congratulations on all of that. When people want to connect with you and with Automation Wolf, where should, they go to find you? MATTHEW: There's only two places you can find me – either on LinkedIn – you just search Matthew Hunt – or at automationwolf.com. You won't find me anywhere else. ROB: Yeah, and you can do like three things on the site – you can read the testimonials, you can watch the video, you can schedule some time. It's all pretty clean and simple, very good. Well thank you so much for that distillation of wisdom, Matthew. Good to connect with you. Thank you for sharing with the audience I wish you all the best.  MATTHEW: You too Rob. Thank you for having me. ROB: All right. Be well. Thanks.

This week Matthew and Kim take a deep dive into the third pillar of successful relationships, conflict resolution. No matter how healthy your relationship is, it is human nature to fall into conflict from time to time. When we hear the word conflict we think of yelling, arguing, and negativity… but it does not have to be that way. Conflict is inevitable, but combat is optional. Running into conflict with your partner can bring you closer by learning to understand one another on a deeper level. If you feel like you and your partner always fall into the same rhythm of criticism, contempt and defensiveness, you are not alone. Tune in this week to learn to resolve conflict in a healthy and productive way with your partner. Key Ideas-Tools and skills in conflict resolution -The three states of every relationship -Conflict resolution isn't about changing your partner -The Four Horsemen Theory -How women deal with their feelings vs men Quotes: “Conflict resolution is a skill, it's learned, you have got to practice it, you have to develop it, you have to grow it and learn how to use it.”- Matthew “Human tendency is to go in and try to fix it, or go in and try to be defensive and we have to practice the good skills and learn how to manage the conflict to be able to resolve or even get beyond it.” -Kim “It's about I and You when you're in conflict you're not commenting and saying what the other person did but you're saying I feel, I need… because in using those I statements you're communicating your state in an effort to help your spouse understand.” -Matthew “There's really always 2 realities… Everybody in every situation has the right to feel how they feel... It doesn't mean I have to feel the same way but I need to validate and make sure that you know that I understand how you feel and why you feel that way   ” -Matthew “You gotta figure out what the dream is within the conflict, because there is a conflict but the dream means what's the underlying issue or what do you really want to happen here.” -Matthew“If I could give advice to men in general, women really need to talk about and express their feelings… a lot of times women will bring it up in a heated way and it's not because they are in conflict or coming at their spouse they just need to get it off their plate.” -Kim Follow us on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok @kickasscouplesnationFor access to workshops with professional therapists, keynote speakers, hot seat training and more exclusive content join our online learning community at: https://matthewphoffman.comOrder ‘Kickass Husband: Winning at Life, Marriage, and Sex' by Matthew Hoffman at https://matthewphoffman.com/ And don't forget to leave us a review! 

Matthew Kepnes runs the popular travel blog, Nomadic Matt, and also writes a successful newsletter. In fact, Matt's newsletter is one of the biggest I've had on the show. His book, How to Travel the World on $50, is a New York Times Best Seller.After a 2005 trip to Thailand, Matt decided to leave his job, finish his MBA, and travel the world. Since then, he's been to nearly 100 countries, and hasn't looked back. Besides being a New York Times best-selling author, Matt's writings have been featured in countless publications. He's a regular speaker at travel trade shows, and is the founder of FLYTE, a non-profit organization that sends students overseas to bring their classroom experience to life.I talk with Matt about his unique approach to running his business. While others are building online courses, Matt has shifted to doing more in-person meetups and events. We talk about his newsletter, and we also talk about growing your Instagram follower count, scaling a business as a solopreneur, and much more.In this episode, you'll learn: When & why you need to start outsourcing day-to-day tasks Matt's email opt-in strategies and tips to get more subscribers The most important metric about your email list How to quickly get more followers on Instagram Links & Resources Blue Ocean Strategy Matador Lonely Planet Blue Ocean Strategy book Pat Flynn Women In Travel Summit Traverse Cheryl Strayed ConvertKit TravelCon FinCon Podcast Movement World Domination Summit Hootsuite Tim Ferriss Seth Godin OptinMonster Seth Godin: This is Marketing Rick Steves Nathan Barry Show on Spotify Nathan Barry Show on Apple Podcasts Matthew Kepnes' Links Matt's website Follow Matt on Twitter Matt's Instagram The Nomadic Network Nomadic Matt Plus Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Matthew:When I started these courses back in 2013, there wasn't a lot of folks. Now you have so many people with courses, so many Instagrammers and TikTokers selling their stuff. It's sort of like, is this worth the time to really invest in it when my heart really isn't in it? How can I maintain 400K in revenue a year? Is that the best use of our resources? The answer is, not really.[00:00:33] Nathan:In this episode, I talk to my long time friend, Matt Kepnes, from Nomadic Matt.Matt's got a travel blog that's wildly popular, and he gets into that—shares all the numbers. He's probably one of the biggest newsletters that I've had on the show, so far.What I love about him, in particular, is how thoughtful he is about his business model.Most people are just adding more courses and figuring out how to grow revenue; honestly, what's now fairly traditional ways, and it's quite effective. Matt takes another approach. He gets into in-person events and meetups. We get to talk about why in a busy, crowded online world, he's actually going offline.I think that Blue Ocean Strategy he references, the popular book by the same title, I think it's interesting, and it's something worth considering when some of the online strategies don't work. We also get into a bunch of other things like growing his newsletter. Like I said, it's quite large.Then, also growing an Instagram following. Instagram is not something that I'm going to actively pursue, but it's interesting hearing his approach of what you do if you're at 5,000 followers on Instagram, and want to grow to 50,000 or more.So, anyway, enjoy the episode.If you could do me a favor and go subscribe on Spotify or iTunes, or wherever you listen if you aren't subscribed already, and then write a review.I check out all the reviews. Really appreciate it. It helps in the rankings, and I'm just looking to grow the show.So, anyway, thanks for tuning in today. Let's go talk to Matt.Matt, welcome to the show.[00:02:06] Matthew:Thanks for having me, Nathan. I've been trying to get on this podcast for ages.[00:02:10] Nathan:Well, don't say that, that'll make people think they can get on just by asking. Really, you came to my house and stayed in my cottage on the farm, and then you're like, “Yo, have me on the podcast!” And that's when I was like, “Absolutely.” But if anyone just asked, that would not be a thing.[00:02:26] Matthew:No, I just mean I finally—I'm excited that I'm worthy enough in my blogging career to be on.[00:02:33] Nathan:Oh, yes.[00:02:35] Matthew:I've made it.[00:02:36] Nathan:Yeah. It's only taken you, what, a decade and a half?[00:02:39] Matthew:13 and a half years. Slow and steady wins the race.[00:02:43] Nathan:That's right.I actually want to start talking about that side of it, because I've been in the blogging world for 11 years now. But even I feel like things changed so much in the first couple of years, even before I entered into the world. So, I'm curious, going back to the early days, what were the prompts for you to come into the blogging world and say, “Hey, I'm going to start publishing online”?[00:03:10] Matthew:Yeah. You know, it was a very haphazard, there was no grand plan. Like I had Zanger when people had Zeno's, which is, you know, a personal blog, way back, you know, 2003, whatever. And so what, I went on my trip around the world in 2006, I just kept updating this Zynga. You know, it was called, Matt goes the world and it was just like, here I am friends here I am.And then, you know, everyone was really excited in the beginning. And then after a while I got sick in my update because the know their back of their office job. So I kinda just forgot about it until I came home and January, 2008 and I need money. And so I started a temp job, and I had a lot of free time and I really just hated being back in the, the office with the walls and everything.And so I was like, I need to earn money to keep traveling. And so I started the website really as with the goal of it being an online resume, you know, it was very bare bones. I used to share a travel news, have an update, like tips and stories from my trip. And then there was a section where we're like, hire me and it had my features and, you know, the guest blogs I did, I used to write for Matador travel.So just as a way to sort of build up, a portfolio of like, Hey, Yeah, freelance writing because I'm wanting to read guidebooks, you know, I wanted to write for lonely planet. That was a dream, right. The guidebooks. And so just the blog was a way to hone my skills and just get in front of editors to be like, Hey look, I do right.You know, here's where I've been, you know, and, and sort of build that base. And eventually that became a thing where I didn't need to freelance. Right.[00:05:03] Nathan:Was it called nomadic Matt from the beginning.[00:05:06] Matthew:He was, yeah. I B two names, nomadic Matt. And that does the world. Right. Because I like the double entendre of it. Right. Even though, but just cause I have a weird sense of humor and all my friends were like, you can't do that one. You gotta do nomadic Matt. It was really good because it's much better brand name, you know, in the long run.But again, I wasn't thinking about that. Right. I wasn't thinking like, oh, I'm going to start this brand. You know, I gotta think of a clever name that people can remember. It was like,Oh a place where people can see my work.[00:05:39] Nathan:Right. Okay. So now 13 and a half years later, what's the, what's the, the blog and newsletter look like. and I want to dive into the business side of it because I think a lot of people build successful newsletters, audience-based businesses, but don't make the leap to like something bigger than themselves.And so I want to dive into all those aspects of it.[00:06:01] Matthew:13 years later, it's seven people. We just hired a new events coordinator to help. my director of events, Erica, coordinate all these virtual in person events that we're going to kick off again. I have a full-time tech guy, a full-time director of content. We changed his title, but like three research assistants, because.I picked a niche that like is always changing. Right. You know, you have a fitness website, how to do a pull up. It's just, that's it,[00:06:37] Nathan:You ranked for that keyword. You're good to go.[00:06:40] Matthew:Yeah. Like how to do a pull up, doesn't change what to do in Paris or the best hospitals in Paris, constantly changing, you know? so it takes three resources, distance.Plus my content guy, me that basically keep up the content and then I have a part-time, graphic designer and part-time social coordinator.[00:07:00] Nathan:Nice. And how many subscribers do you have in the list now?[00:07:03] Matthew:We just called it, so it's a two 50 because we just, cause I haven't shaved it off in like five years or so. So we basically everybody that hasn't opened the email in one year where we're like, you want to be on.And like 2% of them click that button. And then we just got rid of the other 90%. It was like 60,000 names.[00:07:30] Nathan:Yeah. So for everyone listening, two 50 in this case means 250,000.[00:07:35] Matthew:Yeah.[00:07:36] Nathan:Just to clarify, I 7% businesses off of 250 subscribers would be remarkable. That would be just as impressive, but that's not what we're talking about here. going into, so a lot of people, talk about or worry about, should I prune my list or that kind of thing?What were the things that went into that for you? That's a big decision to, to prune 60,000 people off a list.[00:08:00] Matthew:I think it was probably more, maybe I want to say six 60 to 80 I somewhere around there. we were pushing up against our account before I went to the next billing step.So that's always a good impetus to prune the list, but you know, I I've been thinking about it for a while because. You know, I I really want to see what my true open rate.Is You know, like, okay, I have all these people and we were sending it this, I have multiple lists, but the main weekly list was like, 310,000-315,000 but it's been so long since we called and we have so many emails there and I just really wanted to get a true sense of like, what's our active audience.And so between, between that and, pushing up against the next tier price tier. Yeah. it yeah. It's cool to say like, oh, we have 300,000 300, you know, rather than 250,000 Right. But who cares? Right. I mean, at the end of the day, it's just a vanity metric, right? Yeah. It sounds cool. I get a million emails. Right. But if you only have a 10% open rate, You really only have 100,000.[00:09:20] Nathan:Right. I think that the times that it matters is maybe when you're selling a book to a publisher and that might be the only time that you like that dead weight and your email us actually helps you.[00:09:33] Matthew:Yeah. Like if you're, or you have a course, you know, are you trying to promote your numbers, but people would probably lie about that stuff too. yeah, so like, it really doesn't matter because all that matters is like, what's your true audience? Like who Who are the people that are really opening your stuff?[00:09:50] Nathan:Yeah. So let's dive into the, well, I guess really quick, I should say I am a hundred percent in the camp of, like delete subscribers, like do that once a year, that kind of thing. Clean up the list, go for the highest number of engaged subscribers, rather than the highest number of subscribers. It's just[00:10:06] Matthew:Right.[00:10:07] Nathan:To track.[00:10:08] Matthew:And, and I think you would know better than me, but isn't this a good. Like signal to Gmail. And you know, when you, you don't have a lot of dead emails, just go into a blank account. It's never getting opened or marked as spam or whatever.[00:10:24] Nathan:Yeah, for sure. Cause a lot of these times, there's a couple of things that happen. One is emails get converted to spam traps. And so it's like say someone's signed up for your email list six years ago And, they haven't logged into that email account for a long time.Google and others will take it and convert it to a spam trap and say, Hey, this email hasn't been logged into in six years.And so anyone sending to it, it's probably not doing legit things now you're over here. Like, no that person signed up for my list, but they're basically like you should have cleaned them off your list years ago. And then if that person were to ever come back and log into that Gmail account, do you remember like, oh, just kidding here, have the, have the email account back, but they're basically using that.And so you can follow all the. Best practices as far as how people join your list. But if you're not cleaning it, then you will still end up getting these like spam hits and, and other things. So you absolutely clean your list. Let's talk the business side, on revenue, I don't know what you want to share on the, on revenue numbers, but I'd love to hear any numbers you're willing to share.And then the breakdown of where that comes from, whether it's membership, courses, conferences, that sort of thing.[00:11:35] Matthew:Yeah.So there's like the pre COVID world and the post COVID world. Right. You know, like,[00:11:40] Nathan:Yes.[00:11:41] Matthew:Cause I work in travel, so like, you know, pre COVID we did over a million and like I was probably gearing up to like in 2020, like one, five, I think I were going to get a little over one five. and again, you know, this is, I work in the budget travel side of things, right.So like it's going to sell a lot of $10 eBooks to get up to seven figures. salary books are 10 bucks. and so. Postcode during COVID week, I think in 2020 made like half a million. and this year we'll probably get up to three quarters,[00:12:23] Nathan:Okay.[00:12:24] Matthew:K.[00:12:25] Nathan:He was coming back,[00:12:26] Matthew:Yeah. Yeah. and I think next year we'll, we'll get back over seven and then basically like how to go from there.You know, so maybe 20, 23, I might get to that one, five that was going to get to in 2020. most of the revenue now comes from ads, and then affiliates. we did, we did do a lot on courses, but then I, one of the things that, you know, a big pandemic that stops your business, allows you to do is really look at the things you're doing because every.Zero. So it's like when we start back up, is this worth investing time in? And so the answer is no. So we dropped down from, I think, peak of doing like $400,000 a year and horses, and this year we'll do maybe 40. and that's mostly because we just leave it up as like, you can buy this, we update it every six months.If it needs, it's basically like a high that blog course get all my numbers and tactics and strategies in there. but we don't offer any support for it. Right. It's just, you're buying information. and so it's very passive in that sense, but it's not like a core business where we're really moving and we were doing this pre COVID is moving into events and membership programs.So like we have pneumatic map plus, which gets you like all our guides, monthly calls and sort of like a Patriot on kind of thing, but like free.[00:14:03] Nathan:That cost.[00:14:04] Matthew:Five to 75 bucks a month, depending on what you want. So it's 5 25, 75. Most people opt for the five, of course. And it's really geared to like, get the five.But you know, that brings now, I think like three or four K a month. and then we have the events, which is donation based, but there's just like another two K a month. And so this is like, since COVID right. So like, that's say call it 50 K a year of, of revenue that we've added in. They didn't exist before.And now I know you're, you can compare that against the loss of the courses, but we had been phasing those out for years. and so that's really where we want to grow is bringing in more, you know, monthly revenue for that. Right. You know, Once we started, it's easy and we're gonna start doing tours again and, you know, so more high value things that don't take as much time.[00:15:08] Nathan:Right. So on the core side, I think a lot of people listening, maybe they have an email list of five, 10, 15,000 subscribers, and they're like, Hey, the next thing is to launch a course. And they're hearing that's where a bunch of the revenue is. And so it's interesting you moving away from that. So let's dive in more.What, what made you look at the core side of your business and say, I don't want to like restart that in a post COVID world.[00:15:33] Matthew:Yeah, there's just, there's a lot of competition, right? So like, I think it was like a blue ocean, red ocean strategy, you know, to think of that book of, you know, Blue Ocean Strategy. Right? One of the reasons we went into events is because a lot of our traffic comes from Google. And so it's a constant battle of always trying to be one or, you know, in the first couple of spots.Right with every blogger in every company with SEO budget, but there's not a lot of people doing in-person events or building sort of a community in the travel space. So I looked at that of being like, okay, there are a lot of people doing courses and they love doing courses and they're great teachers, you know, they're, you know, you get folks who know like path when, you know, low, like everyone, all these teachable folks, you know, they, they love that stuff.That's not where my heart really was. And so thinking of like, this is a red ocean now, because you have, when I started this, these courses back in 2013, there wasn't a lot of folks. Right. But now you have so many people with courses, so many Instagrammers and tic talkers selling their stuff. It's sort of like, is this worth the time.To like really invest in it when my heart really isn't right. Like how can I maintain your 400 K in revenue a year?[00:17:02] Nathan:Right.[00:17:03] Matthew:What's it going to take, you know, is that the best use of our resources? And the answer is not really, you know, let other people do that. Who love it. I mean, you want to buy my information.It's it's solid stuff. Right. Everyone loves the advice, but to really create like a cohort, like your class, which is sort of like the new version of courses, you know, like, whether it's a month or three months, it's sort of like, you go with this like cohort, right. My heart really wasn't into it because we can invest more in doing events and conferences and really in-person stuff.Especially now that everyone's really excited to do stuff in person again, with a lot less competition. It's easy. It's easy to start a course, but there's a lot of capital investment in doing events that we have the resource to do that, you know, somebody with a 10,000 email list might not.[00:18:03] Nathan:I think I see a lot of people going into courses in, particularly as you alluded to cohort based courses where they're doing it, like, Hey, this is a whole class that you're doing, you know, you're doing the fall semester for the month of October or whatever it is, I'm doing it, doing it the first time and really enjoying it because it's a new challenge they're showing up for their audience.It's just, it's super fun on that, doing it for the second time and going, huh? Okay. That was way easier and way less. And then the third time they go, I don't think I want to do this anymore. Like if the money is good and I just don't enjoy showing up at a set time for a zoom call or whatever else. So it's interesting of watching people jump on a bandwagon and some people it works for really well, and that is their strength and they love it.And then other people that I'm going to like, look, the money's good. And this is this just, isn't what I want to spend my time on.[00:19:02] Matthew:Yeah. You know, I've been doing it for, you know, seven, eight years now and I just sort of lost the passion for, you know, I think it's, I like when people take the information, they succeed with it. But I think after a while you start to realize, you know, it's sort of a 90 10 rule, right? You, 90% of your students, aren't really going to do anything with it.And it's not your fault. It's just because they become unmotivated or, you know, so we tried to switch to the cohort based to be like, okay, this is the class weekly, weekly calls.You know, come on, come together and you still get this drop off rate. That's, you know, sort, it gets this hard and you're like, all right, I've been doing this for eight years, you know, like moving on.But I mean, if you have the love for like pat loves it, you know, like you've got a whole team about it, he's got all these cohorts stuff that speaks to him where I think I'd rather do stuff in person that[00:20:01] Nathan:Right.Well, let's talk about the in-person side. Cause you did something that most people think is really cool and almost no one realizes how hard it is. I think I know how hard it is because I've attempted the same thing and that starting at a conference where everyone's like, you have this big online following, like what you just need to, you know, you have hundreds of thousands of people you just need, I don't know, 500 or a thousand of them to show up in a suit, that's gotta be easy.Right. And so they go and sort of conference, it's wildly difficult. And so.[00:20:33] Matthew:Difficult.[00:20:34] Nathan:I'd love to hear what made you want to start the conference and then yeah, how's it. How's it gone so far?[00:20:40] Matthew:Made me want to start the conference was I really don't think there's a good conference in the chapel space. Yeah. And there are good conferences in the travel space that are very niche and narrow. you know, like there's a woman in travel summit.That's really great. There's one in Europe culture verse, which I liked, but that's like a couple of hundred people there. Wasn't like a, something to scale, right. With wits, which is women to travel is like 300 people. There was, this is no thousand person, 2000 parts. And like mega travel conference for media that has done like, you know, the conferences we go to where it's like high level, you know, people coming outside of your immediate niche to talk about business skills.You know, there's, you know, In the conferences, there are, there's always the same travel, like it's me and like these other big names, travel bloggers over and over and over again. I want to take what I've seen and, you know, from social media world to, trafficking conversion, to mastermind talks, you know, to take all these things that I had gone to, we were like, let's bring it together for travel.Let's create a high level, not a cheap, like hundred dollar events, like, you know, with major keynotes who get paid to speak, because you know, in a lot of travel conferences, you don't get paid to speak, right? So you're high. You're going to get, you know, Cheryl strayed that come to your event for free.That's not waking up to do that. You know, I, you know, and while I can get nice deals from my friends, you still got to pay people right. For their time. And, and so that allows us to have a larger pool of people to create the event that I want to do. Because we will also get into the point where why should somebody who's been blogging for five or six years, go to travel blogging conference app when nobody is at a more advanced stage of blogging than you are, you know, nobody understands SEO better than you do, right?So like after a while you get into this, just drop off of people being like, do I want to fly around the world and hang out with my friends? So I wanted to also create an event where that I could go to and learn something is that I knew that would attract some of the other OJI, travel bloggers.[00:23:06] Nathan:Yeah. So how the, how the first one go, like what was easier than you expected and what was much harder than you.[00:23:14] Matthew:The first one went really well. We had 650 people, and you know, the next one we had 800. But now we're closed because of Kobe, but we're going to do one in 20, 22. And hopefully we get 800 again, things that shocked me, people buy tickets and don't show up. Right. That's weird. Right. Cause I was like, okay, we have 700, you know, I expected maybe like a 5% attrition rate, you know?So like I sold my 750 tickets, but then like six 50, those 600 showed up because the other 50 of those speakers, right. I was like, wow, that's a lot of no-shows for not achieving conference, you know? And so we plan, you know, a 10% attrition rate now.[00:24:04] Nathan:And you just mean someone who doesn't even pick up their badge? Not even, they didn't come to share us rates keynote, but just like they didn't show up to anything at the conference.[00:24:13] Matthew:Yeah, they just did not show up to the conference at all, you know? And. So that was a shock me. I mean, I know I work in travel and, you know, people get last minute of press trips or they, you know, they buy their ticket and they can't come cause, or they got stuck in the Seychelles or whatever, but I did not expect such a high level of no-shows. Because the food here's another thing, food costs a lot of money. Right.You know, I, I fully understand why the airlines took one olive out of your salad. Right. Because it's one olive, but times a million people every day it's actually adds up. Right. So like you think, oh, well it drinks five bucks.That's cool. We'll do a happy hour. Okay. Now times that by a thousand drinks Write, you know, times two, because everyone's drinking two or three, at least two. Right. So then you're like, okay, that's a $15,000 bill that you ended up with. you know, when everyone is all set up. Tax and tip hotel.It's crazy. It's like, okay, these fees, you're like, oh, I got to spend this like, yeah. Okay. Here is your lunch bill 50 grand.But then there's this fee that fee, this fee, this fee like Jake had like 65. You're like, all right. I guess I got a budget for that too. So that was, that was really weird. Like high is the lunch cost, $40,000, you know, and actually hotels, overcharge, and they add a bunch of fees and yeah, you can get them pretty quick.[00:25:46] Nathan:So if you were, if I was starting to conference. They have 50,000 people on a email list or a hundred thousand. And I'm like, Matt, I heard you started a conference. I'm going to do it too. What advice do you have for me? Like what are the first things that you'd call out?[00:26:03] Matthew:It's going to cost like three times more than you think. pricing. Where I went wrong in the second year. Right. So like we've lost money the first two years doing it, but I expected to lose money. It wasn't because I was investing in this long-term thing. Right. But we're at where I lost more money on the second year is that I really factor in flights as well as I did, like I kind of low balled it.And so I always think he should. Oh. And I also invited, I kept inviting people without really seeing, like, where was I? on my like speaker fees. Right. So like really creating a budget and then sticking to it. And even if that means not getting some of your dream folks, to a later year, but working up the food and beverage costs first, because you know, you go to the hotel and they're going to say your F and B, you know, is $90,000.And if they never going to hit that, no, you're going to go way. You're going to blow cause you got to get them to say, what are all the fees? You know, like, okay. You know, if I have a 300 person conference and I want to do two lunches, what does that look like?Plus all the taxes and fees,[00:27:23] Nathan:Okay, well, you, the launch price and you'll, you'll pencil that into your spreadsheet and they'll fail to mention that there's mandatory gratuity on top of that and taxes and whatever[00:27:33] Matthew:Yeah,And whatever, you know, plate fee there is. Right. So you gotta factor all that in and then look at what you got left.[00:27:40] Nathan:It's like when you're buying a car and you have to talk in terms of the out the door price in[00:27:45] Matthew:Yeah.[00:27:46] Nathan:The sticker price,[00:27:47] Matthew:Yeah. I made that mistake when I bought my car last year, I was like, oh 17. And I was like, wait, how did 17 go from 17,000 to 22? And like, well,[00:27:56] Nathan:Right.[00:27:57] Matthew:Thing that I was like, ah, okay,[00:28:00] Nathan:Yeah. Do you think w what are some of the opportunities that have come out from running the conference and has it had the effects of your community that you've hoped? It would,[00:28:10] Matthew:You know, this is a very, blogger faced event, you know, more than just travel consumers. but it's definitely allowed me to, you know, meet folks like Cheryl Austrade, you know, great way to meet your heroes. Is there pay them to come speak at a conference? so, you know, I, I know Cheryl, like, that's cool.The becoming more ingrained in sort of the, the PR side and with the demos and the brands, because, you know, on the website, I destination marketing organization.[00:28:44] Nathan:Okay.[00:28:45] Matthew:So they're like, you know, visit, you know, Boise visit Idaho, we call them a DMO. And so like since I don't really do press trips on the website, I don't know a lot of them really well.And so this has been a way to be, become more ingrained on that sort of industry side of events and not live in my own. and that's helpful because now I know all these folks, when we want to have meetups that might be sponsored when I do a consumer event, which is next up. So get these folks to come for that.So it's just really been good, just professionally to meet a lot of people that I would normally just not meet simply because I go to events and they were like, Hey, come to our destination, we'll give you a free trip. And like, you have a policy. And so I don't get invited to as many things as you would think.[00:29:37] Nathan:Yeah. Why, why do you have that policy? What do you like? What's behind it. And why is that different from other travel bloggers?[00:29:45] Matthew:Hi, it mostly stems from my hatred of reciprocity. You know, like if you, if I go on a free trip and it sucks, like I then create, it's awkward. If I have to go like hot, like, Hey, you suck. And I have to write this online. Then it creates a lot of bad blood that gets talked about, you know, it's a very small industry.People move around a lot, so you get less opportunities or I can just go, Hey, I'm not going to write that. And then they feel bad. Cause like, you know, like you're a nice person just doing their job, you know, like it's not your fault. I had a bad time. you know, I did this once with a friend and she gave me a couple of places to stay, at a hotel in San Jose, Costa Rica and chill out and sort of tell was really far out of town.And th the amount it took me to take a taxi back and forth. Like, I could've just got a place right. In the center of San Jose, you know? And so I was like, I really, I just don't think it's a good fit for my Anya. And she was very unhappy about it. I was like, I mean, I could write in, but I have to say that.Right. Yeah. And so I just never wanted to put myself in those situations again. I also think that taking a lot of free travel, like I do budget travel. So you given me a resort like that. Doesn't how does that help my audience? So if I start living this awesome life and getting free stuff, that's great for me, but it's not good for my audience.And so I don't mind taking free tours. Like, let's say I'm going to go to Scotland. Right? I did. This actually was real life example. I wanted to access cause I wanted to write about scotch. So I was like, Hey, I don't want to do like the public tour. you know, that 20 bucks, you know, it's like 10 minutes and you get the, I like, I want to talk to people because I want quotes for articles.I'm going to do like history stuff. So I contacted the Scottish tourism board and they got, got me visited. I that's where I went to. I just love P scotch. and so they got me like private tours. So I can like take notes in such. and they gave me a free accommodation that I was like, I want to be really clear about this.I'm not mentioning this place. And they're like, just, just take it. And so, and I didn't mention it and I didn't mention that, you know, I got access to these, you know, distillers to ask some questions, but it was more about building this article as a journalist than,Hey, I want like free tours, you know, like, I mean, I saved 20 bucks. Right. But the point was, I wanted to learn about the process to write about this story beam. And then they offered me free flights and stuff. It was like, now I just, I just want the tourist, please. Thanks.[00:32:44] Nathan:Yeah, it's interesting of the, what a lot of people would view as the perks to get into travel blogging. Right. I want to get into it because then I'd have these free chips or I can have these offs or whatever else, I guess the right apps you get, no matter what, but, You know that that's the other side of like, everything comes with a cost.And I think it's important to realize what you're doing because you want to versus what you're doing, because now you feel obligated because someone gave you something for free.[00:33:12] Matthew:Yeah. The most thing is I tend to accept our city tourism part, which gets you like free access to museums and stuff. I was like, okay, that's cool.But beyond that, I just, you know, I don't want to get into, like, you want to give me a museum pass. I'm going to see these museums anyway. Sure. I'll save some money and I'll, I'll make a wheel note, but I'm going to no obligation to write about which museum, because I write about the ones I like anyway.So,[00:33:39] Nathan:Right.[00:33:40] Matthew:You know, that's not to me like free travel. That's not what people think of Like the perks of. the job are.[00:33:46] Nathan:I, that was funny. When I learned about the, like the welcome packet that cities will, will give, like the first time I saw it in action was. I went to Chris, Guillebeau's like end of the world party in Norway. and I was hanging out with Benny Lewis there who runs, you know, fluent in three months, a mutual friend of both of ours.You've known him longer than I have, but like, we're both at our check into the hotel and he's got like this whole thing of all these museum passes he's got, and he's just like, yeah, I just emailed the tourism board and said, I was going to say, and they're like, oh, blogger. And they gave him like, you know, access to everything and you only ended up using half of it because we weren't there for that long, but,[00:34:28] Matthew:Yeah. That's great. You should always get these discount cards, like the comparison museum pass or the New York mic go card that will save you a lot of money if you're doing lots of heavy sites in.[00:34:39] Nathan:Yeah. Yeah, for sure. okay. So how does actually let's dive into the COVID side, right? Cause COVID took a hit huge hit on the entire traveling. we saw that just in the like running ConvertKit where, you know, having bloggers in so many different areas, we had a lot of growth because lots of people were stuck at home and start like, I'm going to start a new blog.I'm going to have time to, to work on this or whatever. And it was a lot of cancellations, mostly from the travel industry. If people like, look now that what this 50,000 person list, that was a huge asset is now just a giant liability. because no one's planning trips. How did you navigate that time? And what, like, what's the journey been?You know, the last 18 months, two years,[00:35:28] Matthew:Well first I would say that's really shortsighted of someone canceling their 50,000 person list like[00:35:34] Nathan:I think they were like exporting sitting on it and they're going to come back. But, but I agree. It was very shortsighted.[00:35:39] Matthew:Yeah. Like just like throw it away. 50,000 emails, right. I mean, it was tough in the beginning. You know, we went from like January and February were like best months ever, you know? And like, I mean, even, and then all of a sudden like, like March 13th is like that Friday, you know, it's like everything crashes, like again, like we were on our way to have a banner year, like, like, like hand over fist money, you know?And, and then to being like, how am I going to pay the bills? You know? and so, cause you know, we, haven't sort of the, the overhang from Java con, right. You know, like we didn't make money on the first two years. And year three was the, the breakeven year and travel con was in, Right in the world ended in March.Right. And so I had laid out all, like, you're so close to the event, that's you? That's when you start paying your bills. Right. And the world hits and all the sponsors who, you know, have their money, you know, in the accounting department are like, oh, we're not paying this now. And so you're like, well, I've just paid $80,000 in deposits and all that money that was going to offset.It has gone. and then you have people canceling. A lot of people were really mean about it. They're like, oh, I'm, I'm back now. And we're going to do charge backs, that, you know, you have that overhang and just, you know, fall in revenue it's it was really tough. thank God for government loans, to be quite honest, like I, I went to native through if it wasn't for, all that, because a lot of my.My money was tied up in non-liquid assets. So it wasn't like I could just like sell some socks though, you know, pay the bills. but things have come back a lot. I mean, there's a lot of paint up the man, for travel, I view it like this way, right? You got kids, right. You know, they get in trouble, you take away their toy and then you give them back.Right. Where do they want to do now? They just want to play with that toy even more because it's like, no, it's mine. No one else can have it. And like where you want to do this other toy. No. And so now that the toy of travel is being given back to people like people are like, never again, am I going to miss out on this opportunity to travel on my dream trips?Let's make it happen. So we had a really good summer. I spoke to mediocre fall and winter just as the kids are back in school, people are traveling less, you know, but as more in the world, that? will be good. but again, as I said, at the beginning of this, it's going to take awhile for us to get, to get back to where we were, but there's definitely demand there,[00:38:36] Nathan:When's the next conference when the travel con happening again.[00:38:39] Matthew:April 29th,[00:38:41] Nathan:Okay.[00:38:41] Matthew:22,[00:38:42] Nathan:So what's the how of ticket sales benefit for that? Is there like that pent-up demand showing up and people booking conference tickets or are they kind of like, wait and see, you know, you're not going to cancel this one too kind of thing.[00:38:55] Matthew:Yeah, I mean, we're definitely not canceling it. I mean, the world would have to really end for it. We just launched, this week. So, early October, we just announced our first round of speakers. and we sold like 10 or 15 tickets. I don't expect a lot of people, to buy until the new year I saw this.And the old event, right? Because in the old event we were had in May, 2019. Right. And we announced in the fall, but it wasn't until like, you know, a few months prior that people started buy their ticket. Right. Because they don't know where they're going to be. You know, where are they flying from? What were the COVID rules going to be like, the demand is there.But I, I know people are probably just waiting and seats for their own schedule too, you know? So, but you were against so 800 tickets and honestly, from what I've heard from other events, you know, people are selling out, you know, because there was such demand, like it's not a problem of selling the tickets, so I'm not sure.[00:40:01] Nathan:Yeah, one thing, this is just a question that I'm curious for myself. since I also run a conference, what do you think about conferences that rotate cities or like Mo you know, move from city to city, which we've been to a lot of them that do it. You know, the fin con podcast movement areTwo longer running ones that you and I have both been to. obviously that's what you're doing. The travel column. well, domination summit, which we've both been to a lot, you know, it was like very much it's Portland. It's always Portland. We'll never be anywhere anywhere else. What do you think, why did you chose? Why did you choose the approach that you did in what you think the pros and cons are?[00:40:39] Matthew:Yeah, for, for me it was, you know, we're in travel. I wanted to travel. Right. And plus, you know, I mean, you get up, we get a host, right? So like Memphis is our sponsor. Right. It's in Memphis. Yeah, it was supposed to be in new Orleans. New Orleans was our host sponsor. Right. So moving it from city to city allows us to get, you know, a new host sponsor every year is going to pony up a bunch of money.Right. I don't know how Podcast move into it, but I think if I wasn't in travel and it was more something like traffic and conversion, or maybe we'll domination summit, I would probably do it in the same place over and over again because you get better consistency. you know, one of the things I hate about events is that they move dates and move locations.Right. And, and so it's a little hard to in travel cause you know, COVID really screwed us. Right. But we're moving to being, you know, in the same timeframe, right. We're always going to be in early May. That's where I want to fall into like early may travel car, change the city, but you got the same two-week window, because it's hard to plan, right?So like if you're changing dates in cities, you're, you're just off of a year. So I wanted some consistency, make it easier for people to know, like in their calendar, Java con early Mac, Java con, early Mac, you[00:42:17] Nathan:Yep.[00:42:18] Matthew:It doesn't really work out cause of COVID, but post COVID we're we're moving to that, that, early may[00:42:24] Nathan:Yeah. Okay. So let's talk more about sort of scaling different between different levels of the business. So there's a lot of people who say, all right, 10, 20, 50,000 subscribers, somewhere in there. And it's very much the solopreneur of like, this is, I'm a writer. I just do this myself. Or maybe they, you know, contract out graphic design or a little bit more than that.What were some of the hardest things for you and why and what worked and what didn't when you made the switch from it being nomadic, Matt being just Matt to Matt plus a team.[00:43:00] Matthew:Yeah, it It's definitely hard to give up that control, right. Because you always think no one can do your business better than you can. And I mean, even to this day, I still have issues doing, you know, giving up control. Right.[00:43:14] Nathan:What's something that you don't want to, that you're like still holding onto that, you know, you need to let go of[00:43:19] Matthew:Probably just little things like checking in on people and, you know, Content probably like Content. I'm very specific about my voice, the voice we have. So. But I should let my content, people make the content that I know is fine. but I definitely, probably overly check on my teams to be like, what'd you do today?You know, you know, that kind of stuff. but I did take a vacation recently and I went offline for a week and they didn't run the thing down. So I was like, oh right. That was my like, okay, I can, I can let go. And it's going to be okay. But, so getting comfortable with that much earlier on, I would probably save you a lot of stress and anxiety.I definitely think you should move to at least having somebody, you know, a part-time VA, if you're making over six figures, hire somebody because you know, how are you are not going to go from a 100k to 500k really by yourself? Unless, you know, you just have some crazy funnel that you do, but even the people I know who are solopreneurs, they still have two or three people helping them a little bit part, even if it's just part-time because the more money you make, the more time you have to spend keeping that income up.And so your goal as the creator in the owner should be, how can I grow? How can I make more money? It should not be setting up your WordPress blog. You know, It should not be answering joke emails It should not be, you know, scheduling your social media on Hootsuite, that kind of low level stuff can be done by, you know, a part-time VA And maybe that part-time VA becomes a full-time VA as you scale up more. But you know, if you, you have to free up your time and you're never going to free up your time, if you're spending a lot of that time, scheduling. So you mean that the people I know who have half a million dollar businesses, selling courses, you know, and they're really just a solopreneur.They have somebody do that grunt work, right. Plus if you're making that much money, is that the best use of your time now? Really? Right. So getting somebody to do sort of the admin front work, as soon as you can, even if it's on a part-time basis will allow you to focus on growth marketing, and monetization, which is where you should be like Podcast.This week. I have like four or five podcasts I'm doing, right. You know, that is a good chunk of my week. If I have to spend that time scheduling on social media, you know, or setting up blog posts, like I can do that. And this is where the growth in the audience comes in.[00:46:12] Nathan:Okay. So since we're talking about growth, what are the things that you can tie to the effort that you put in that drives growth? Are there direct things or is it a very indirect unattributable[00:46:27] Matthew:Yeah, I think there's some direct things like, you know, before, you know, asking 10 years ago, I would say guest posting on websites. Right. You write a guest post on like Confederacy's site and boom, tons of traffic. Right. that doesn't exist anymore. I mean, yeah. You can get a lot of traffic, but it's not like the huge windfall it used to be, but it's still good for brand awareness.SEO. Great for links. Right. I would say things today that I can tie directly to stuff Podcast and, Instagram. So doing, like, doing a joint Instagram live with another creator. Right. You know, like me and, you know, it's I know pat. because someone with a big following there, we do, we do a talk, you know, 30 minutes, you know, I can see in my analytics, like a huge spike in my following right after that.And so that's a great way to sort of grow your audience is to do Instagram collabs in just like 30 minutes tops and[00:47:32] Nathan:Podcasts[00:47:33] Matthew:I get a lot of people will be like, I saw you on this podcast. I was like, wow, cool.[00:47:37] Nathan:I always struggle with that of like, of all the activities that you can do. Cause you get to a point where there's just so many opportunities open to you and it's like, which are the best use of time. What should you say yes to, what should you say no to, and I don't know. Do you have a filter along those or do you just, is it just kind of gut-feel[00:47:53] Matthew:I will say yes to any text-based interview, normally it is the same questions over and over again. So I sort of have a lot of canned responses that I can just kind of paste. and tweak But those are links, so I'm like, sure. Yeah. Send your questions over. Cut paste, tweak, you know, you know,[00:48:12] Nathan:Customize[00:48:13] Matthew:Customize a little bit, but you know, how many times do I need to rewrite from scratch?How'd you get into blogging, you know, what's your favorite country, Podcasts I definitely have a bigger filter on like you, I don't do new podcasts.[00:48:27] Nathan:Okay.[00:48:27] Matthew:I know that's like bad. because you know, this new podcast could become the next big thing, but come back to me when you have some following.[00:48:36] Nathan:I like Seth, Godin's rule I'm not on south Dakotan's level by any means, but he says like, come back to me. When you have 100 episodes, I will happily be your 100th interview on your podcast or something[00:48:47] Matthew:Yeah.[00:48:48] Nathan:And he's just like, look, Put in your time and then we'll talk.[00:48:51] Matthew:Yeah, so I like, I don't look for just following, but like again, you know, knowing that people give up on blogs, people give up Podcast too. So. You know, you have to have been doing it for like six months a year, like week a weekly, you know? So I know like this something you care about. and I like to listen because you know, you get a lot of new people and they're not really great.You know, they asked us like a lot of canned questions and you're like, listen, you're taking, you know, an hour, hour and a half of my time. You gotta make it interesting for me.Well, yeah, Podcast. And then for Instagram stories you gotta have, or Instagram lives, either a brand new audience, or if you're in travel, at least 75,000.Cause I have like a one 30, so I want to keep it in the same in a level.[00:49:43] Nathan:Yeah.I know nothing about Instagram and promotions on Instagram and all of that is there. If someone were to, like, in my case, if I came to you and say, Hey, I want to grow my Instagram following. I've got 3000 people or 5,000 people or something like that. And I want to be have 50,000 a year from now.Where would you point me?[00:50:05] Matthew:I would say, do you join Instagram lives with people like once a week, you know, and just, or maybe once a week for you and then go to somebody else on their side once a week. So, and just kind of work your way up, like find people in your, your sort of follower count level, you know? So in this case, I'd probably do, you know, you know, 1000 to 5,000, I would look for in your niche and like get online for 30 minutes and talk about whatever it is you want to talk about and and then go to someone else's channel and do that, and then keep doing that because you'll just see giant spikes and then you can move up the the ladder.Then you have 10,000 followers and someone with 25,000 followers might give you the time of day. And then you talk about that, you know, and you just sort of build awareness because you're always there. You're always around.[00:51:03] Nathan:It's a really good point about the figuring out what those rough bands are and reaching out within those. Because I think a lot of people are like, I'm going to go pitch whoever on doing Instagram live together. And it's like, you have 5,000 and they have 150,000. And like the content might be a perfect fit, but they're most likely going to say no, because you're not[00:51:24] Matthew:Yeah.[00:51:24] Nathan:Driving that much value for, or that many subscribers for their audience.[00:51:29] Matthew:Yeah. You know, and so you, maybe I would, you know, someone was like a finance blogger, and they had like 40,000, 30, 40,000. I'd probably.We do it because people who like to say money, like say money on travel. So it'd be like, there's probably a good fit. And you know, 30,000 people, they might not know me or they have like, like you said, 3000, come back to me, you know, when there's another zero,[00:51:57] Nathan:Right. Well, and then the other thing that's going to be true is if I'm bringing you to, to my audience to share and teach something, if you're using this strategy, like go do another 20 of these or 50 of these, and your pitch will be better. And the way that you teach finance to travel bloggers or whatever else it is, is going to get so much better.[00:52:17] Matthew:Yeah,[00:52:18] Nathan:It's like, I kind of don't want to be your Guinea pig. You know, I don't want my audience to be your Guinea[00:52:23] Matthew:Yeah,[00:52:24] Nathan:Pig for your content. And so just get more experienced and come back.[00:52:28] Matthew:Yeah. And you know, you also gotta think about, you know, people are so time-starved right. You know, when I started blogging, I could. There was no Instagram. There was no Snapchat. There was no Tech-Talk, you know, Twitter was barely a thing. So I didn't have to split my focus on so many different platforms and channels.Right. I can just, alright, I can be on this one blog, but now when people are like, whoa, sorry, I have to like manage all these different social channels and all of these comments in the blog and everything. They not don't have like an hour to give, you know, to just anybody way do you could have before,[00:53:12] Nathan:Yeah. Yeah. That's so true. Okay. So on the email side, specifically, if someone came to you with say 1,000 newsletter subscribers today, and they're like, I want to grow, I mean, you're looking to grow to 5,000. This might be so far removed from where you're at that you're like, I don't even know if that was, you know, a decade ago that I was in that position, but what are you seeing that's working?Where would you point them?[00:53:33] Matthew:What works for us right now? one having email forms everywhere on your site, sidebar, footer, we have one below the content below the content forms, and popups, popups, the work they're really great. we find for really long posts, having a form in the middle of the post converts better than, at the end of the post, because know a A lot of people don't read to the end, but when they get to in the middle you're still there.You know, if you look at heat maps are really long websites, right? You just see that drop-off right. So if all your forms are at the bottom of the page, they're just not getting the visibility, that you need. so middle of the page,[00:54:19] Nathan:Do you play with a lot of different incentives of like, you know, Opt-in for this fee guide, you know, or are you customizing it to something for a particular country or there, the content that they're reading[00:54:30] Matthew:Yeah, so we use OptinMonster for that. and so we have, like, if If you go to our pages that are tagged Europe, you get a whole different set of options. than if you go to Australia, like, and like the incentives are like, you know, best hostels in Europe, you know, best hostels in Australia, right? Like little checklist guides.And I tweak what the copy for that, you know, just to see what wording, will lift up a better conversion rate. But yeah, we definitely, because, you know, we cover so many geographic areas. The needs of someone going to Europe are a little different than somebody going to New Zealand. So we, we definitely customize that kind of messaging. And I think that helps a lot, you know, and definitely customizing messaging as much as possible. Um know, but in terms of just, you know, we can talk about, you know, the market, like how do you word things, but middle pop-ups and mil of blog posts definitely converts the best. And so like that's where we see a lot of growth, as well as, just on Instagram telling people to sign up for my newsletter or Twitter or Facebook, but don't let the algorithm, you know, keep you from your travel tips, sign up now and people do.[00:55:58] Nathan:Okay. And is that like swipe up on stories that you're doing[00:56:02] Matthew:Yeah.[00:56:03] Nathan:You know, on an Instagram live or all the above?[00:56:06] Matthew:All the above.[00:56:07] Nathan:Yeah.[00:56:07] Matthew:You just constantly reminding people to sign up for the list, you know, and. One of the failings of so many important for influencers today is, you know,They always regret everyone as everyone does. They always regret not starting to list, you know? And so, you know, you just got to hammer into people, sign up for the list, sign up for the list, sign up for the list.Yeah. And a lot of the copy is, do you see all my updates? No. Would you like to sign up for this newsletter?[00:56:39] Nathan:Yeah, because everyone knows. I mean, I come across people all the time. It's like, I used to follow them on Instagram. I haven't seen, oh no, I do still follow them on Instagram. Instagram just decided that I apparently didn't engage with their content enough or something.[00:56:53] Matthew:Yeah,[00:56:54] Nathan:So now I no longer see their posts,[00:56:56] Matthew:Yeah. You like, I go, I always go to my like 50 least interacted profiles. Right. And, you know, there are some people that aren't there. I interact with this guy all the time. How is this the least attractive? But that that's Instagram and saying, here are the people we don't show you in your feet.[00:57:13] Nathan:W where do you see that? Is that[00:57:16] Matthew:If you go to your, who you're following, it's it should be up on the top.[00:57:20] Nathan:Hmm. All right. I'll have to look at that.[00:57:22] Matthew:Yeah. I'll send you a screenshot. and so like, that's the algorithm be like, here are the people who you interact with the least, but it's like, no, I, I love their stuff. why why do it take them from me? So,[00:57:36] Nathan:Zuckerberg is like, do you really love their stuff? I just not feeling it.[00:57:40] Matthew:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, it's just, you know, the algorithms are terrible and what I hate and I learned this last year, and this was sort of a unsurprising, but surprising thing is that stories, which used to be like the latest first.[00:57:59] Nathan:Yeah.[00:57:59] Matthew:That is, they have an algorithm for that now, too. And I was like, I, I shouldn't be surprised, but I am surprised.And I'm annoyed by that because like, I liked it when it was just the newest first, but Nope, now that is based on, you know, sort of like Tik TOK thing of like, oh, this story is getting really a lot of interactions. We'll bring it up the front of people's queue or, you know, so it's not just like your first, because you had one, one second ago, you know, like it could, it's based on an algorithm[00:58:35] Nathan:Yeah.And that's how it's all going to go. Facebook did that a lot, you know, with Facebook fan pages back in the day where it used to be fantastic for engagement. And then they were like, yeah, it's fantastic. If you pay us[00:58:46] Matthew:Yeah. And even then it's like, I would pay to boost posts. I was like, great. You saw, I lectured five people. What? I just gave you a hundred bucks and that was. And there was some guy you remember him commenting last year. He was like, whatever happened to this page? I was like, I'm still here. He's like, no, no, no, no.And this isn't a common thread in Facebook. He's like your pages to get a lot more engagement. What happened? I was like, oh, Facebook algorithm. I was like, people just don't see it. Let me tell you where all my analytics side it's like this page. So I have 2000 people. You're like great. 1%, woo[00:59:23] Nathan:Do you do paid advertising? I'd like to get email subscribers.[00:59:28] Matthew:We used to, but, the CPMs went up so much that it wasn't worth the effort. You know, like paying a dollar 52 bucks for an email subscriber, is just a lot of money for, for, for things. We don't mind ties directly. Like we're not taking people through finals buy a course, right? Like just to get rot email, I'm not paying two bucks for.Yeah. And, and so I just, we stopped paying, like during the pandemic, like, June, June of last year, we were like, oh, we're going to take a break. And then we paid somebody to help us for it to make kind of reset it up. But I just had to spend down so much. I was like, you know what, I'm going to turn off for a bit.And yeah, that's been like,[01:00:17] Nathan:Didn't really miss it.[01:00:18] Matthew:Yeah, I looked at the numbers recently cause I was thinking, should we do it? And it's not that big of a difference of just doing it organically on like Instagram stories or just on the page. Right. And I also don't really like giving money to the Zuckerberg empire of VO. I just not a fan of that business.And so like, I know my ad spend is low, but I can't say just. On a rod number. Like it wasn't that big of a deal. Like, you know, like, cause the CPMs were so high, we were having to pay a lot of money. So like we put in like two grand a month and we weren't getting thousands. We getting hundreds of people, you know, I want four for two grand.I want thousands of people.[01:01:06] Nathan:Yeah. For my local newsletter, we're doing paid advertising on Facebook and Instagram and averaging about $2 per subscriber. And that I think now that's considered pretty good. You'd like a lot of, with a broader audience, you'd be at $3 or more per subscriber and it gets expensive pretty fast.[01:01:23] Matthew:Yeah. I mean, but I think at some point you'll just see such diminishing returns that, you know, I mean, how many people are in Boise, can you hit, you know, over and over again?Right.[01:01:35] Nathan:Yep.[01:01:36] Matthew:I, I was just reading Seth Godin's book. This is Marketing. And he said, you know, they talked about ads.You turned off ads when the Content says turn ‘em off. And my Content, I was like, you know, they're not really paying for themselves.[01:01:50] Nathan:Yeah. Let's see. Yeah. You turn that off. Looking forward, maybe like two or three years is that I think your business has fascinating of the approach that you have of taking an online audience, building a real team around it, and then building it into the in-person community. what do you think the business is going to look like in two, three years?Where, where is revenue coming from? What's your vision for the events and meetups and what are the things that like over that time period, they get really excited.[01:02:19] Matthew:Yeah. Two, three years. So we're talking, you know, 20 by 20, 23, most of our revenue coming from stuff in person, you know, having chapters around the world, people pay to go to them. So, you know, it it's like 10 bucks and you can bring your friends for free, right. So it's like five bucks versus. Just for the cost of like hosting events.Right. doing lots of that, doing tours, we're bringing back. and they won't be just with me cause they're community events. Right. So we'll have guides, right. So it's not just, you're coming to travel with me, sort of what Rick, Steve does. Right. You go on and Rick Steves tour, it's his itinerary, but he's not on the tour.Right. He shows up to a couple of them throughout the season when it's not like you don't expect him to be your guide at the time. So moving to that, having a consumer event for like, like a, like a world domination summit, you know, a weekend somewhere just for travel consumers, having an app for both having an app for that company. then online just being a lot of and affiliates and you know, even me. Just even taking away just having this like passive income course, just because, you know, one less thing to worry about. Right.And then travel con, so being around, but actually making money this time.[01:03:47] Nathan:Do you think travel con is going to turn into, I mean, obviously it's a significant amount of revenue, but the expenses are so high. Do you think it will turn into a profitable business[01:03:56] Matthew:Oh yeah. Yeah. Like, I mean, a lot of the unprofitability is just comes from the fact that I had no idea where that was doing.[01:04:02] Nathan:Yeah, I know that firsthand from my own conference, so yeah.[01:04:07] Matthew:It was, I didn't realize how quickly expenses gets that. Right. You know, being like, oh, okay. Like my food and beverage budget is 120,000 writing that in there. And then getting $145,000 bill because, oh yeah, it's 120,000 food, but then there's tax fees, which we, you know, all this stuff and like, Okay, well, that's $25,000 off the profit.Right. and so with a better handle of expenses, like we were definitely like this year, we were gonna like reg even, you know, at the very minimum, we'll pre COVID and this year we'll also break break event. Um it's and just keeping a handle on, you know, like, well, how will I don't invite a hundred speakers, you know?And, and be like, oh, I had planned to only budget, you know, 50,000 speaker fees, but now I'm at 80. Okay. Like, handling the cost better. We're good. Now I have a professional events team that kind of slaps me around and it's like, can't spend that money.[01:05:06] Nathan:I know how it is, where I'm like, Hey, what if, and then just like, now[01:05:10] Matthew:Yeah,[01:05:10] Nathan:Love it, but no,[01:05:12] Matthew:Yeah,[01:05:12] Nathan:Don't like, you don't have the budget for it.[01:05:15] Matthew:Yeah. But no, I mean, you know, we used to have a party. And we're getting rid of the second night party because people don't want to go. Like we didn't have a lot of people show up cause like they're out and about on town. So it's like, wow, I just spent, you know, $40,000 for like a third of the conference to come, you know, why not take that money and use it to something that's more valuable for everybody that has more like impact for dollar spent and still not like go over budget.You know, same thing with lunches. We got, we were getting rid of, we're doing one lunch now.You know, cause people don't really care that much, you know, about in[01:06:01] Nathan:Yeah, it's super interesting.Well, I love the vision of where the conference is going, and particularly just the way that the whole community interplays. I think it's been fun watching you figure out what you want your business model to be, because obviously, with a large audience, your business model can be any one of a hundred different variations.I like that you keep iterating on it, and figuring out the community.[01:06:26] Matthew:Yeah, we're definitely going

Matthew Berman is President/ co-founder of Emerald Digital, a full-service data- and creative-driven digital marketing/ public relations agency that specializes in generating quantifiable leads and sales by: Mapping and generating consumer-journey-stage-specific touchpoints across multiple digital channels,  Developing and delivering personalized, consumer-journey-stage-specific content.  Typical clients are B2C premium consumer goods providers, B2B clients, and professional services (legal, healthcare, and some financial companies). Matthew talks about journey stages as being three funnels: awareness, consideration, and purchase. Awareness involves highlighting a consumer's major” pain points, introducing the client, and clearly presenting the client's unique benefits. At the purchase stage, where the user is already familiar with the client and trust and authority have been established, the message can be “a little more aggressive.”  The client, its product, and its target market determine the mix of content, platform, audience, and messaging needed to best address the target audience at each particular stage. Although the agency's focus is digital, Matthew says it will get into whatever space their target market is in. Matthew cites the example of a pet brand client with “two audiences.” When communicating with “the general public (traditional consumer channels), the focus is on digital with some print media, and media buying. For the industry-specific retail buyers (industry trades), the media mix is more traditional.  It has been difficult in the past to track billboard impact (except perhaps by sending viewers through distinct contact options). Today, companies can purchase digital space for times when prospective customers will be passing by that billboard, change up the message more frequently to keep it “fresh” or to meet the client's changing needs and goals (to increase business, build brand, hire new employees), or try to ping passing cell phones to track “views.” Matthew started his career in music production, selling songs through NYC ad agencies to support large brands' digital content. He partnered with a creative director contact to create Chunnel TV, a video curation and production platform. Funding for that evaporated with the Great Recession and Matthew moved to a traditional marketing agency in New Orleans to work on social and ambassador programs.  A few years later, he started Ember Networks, which provided other agencies with white-label social, web, and SEO support, and often consulted and collaborated with a close friend who owned Herald PR in New York City. On a joint project in the Turks and Caicos, they realized their teams were already integrated and that they would be able to tackle larger projects and work smarter if they combined the two companies. Ember Networks and Herald PR became Emerald Digital. When COVID hit, both locations shut down. Growth was exploding – the company probably tripled last year. Finding, hiring, and integrating new employees into the team was a challenge when everyone was remote. Processes needed to be thoroughly documented, mapped, and assessed; SOPs written, organized, posted, and automated; and communications tools updated and unified. In this interview, Matthew explains how a key tool of the agency's operationalization, a program called ClickUp, has allowed them to aggregate all their documents, automate processes, streamline reporting, and handle client communication.  Matthew is excited about how, today, his clients can tell never-ending stories and have ongoing narratives broken into digestible pieces across multiple platforms and multiple touchpoints and, even more so, how technological advances, AR, VR, AI will impact storytelling in the not-so-distant future. He can be reached on his agency's website at: https://emerald.digital Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined today by Matthew Berman, who is President and Partner at Emerald Digital with offices in New York, New York and New Orleans, Louisiana. Welcome to the podcast, Matthew. MATTHEW: Thank you so much for having me, Rob. ROB: Fantastic to have you here. Why don't you start by introducing Emerald Digital and what it is that you all are excellent in doing for your clients? MATTHEW: Absolutely. I am the president and a co-founder of Emerald Digital. We are a full-service digital marketing and public relations agency. Our superpower is we are exceptional at generating quantifiable leads and sales. We do this by mapping out and generating consumer touchpoints across multiple digital channels, and we strive to engineer these consumer touchpoints by the stage which the consumer journey and the user is actually in. If they're at the awareness stage, we have different content pieces generated just for them and personalized just for them. If they're at the consideration stage, we do the same thing. ROB: You've kind of teased it; give us all the stages as you all think about it. MATTHEW: Sure. At a very general level, let's think about awareness, let's think about consideration, and let's think about purchase. We can break them down into those three major funnels. We try to identify, based on the client that we have, what mix of content, what mix of platform, what mix of audience, and what mix of message we need to best speak to our audience at that particular stage. If we're just trying to generate awareness, we want to highlight what their major pain points are. We want to introduce who our client is, and we want to distill our message such that it can focus on the unique benefits that our client offers in an easy-to-understand way for our target market. If it's at the purchase stage, we would generally have communicated with that particular user several times by now, so we've built up trust, we've built up authority. Our messaging is going to be a little more aggressive. ROB: Give us a picture here. Dive down a little bit. Are there typical clients for you? Particular industry, particular size? What's the wheelhouse? MATTHEW: I think in general, we see two different kinds, although it certainly extends beyond that. But the two different kinds that we have are a B2C company, generally consumer goods, with a product or service that might be a little more premium, a little more expensive, whether that be a luxury hotel or a private jet or a luxury villa or a more expensive food item. So we see that. On the other side, we handle a lot of B2B clients and professional services. We deal very frequently in the legal and healthcare and sometimes the financial space. ROB: I can't let it just sit there – I need to know more about expensive food items. MATTHEW: One of the examples is we're working with one of the most premium hotdog manufacturers and sellers in the United States. You would normally think about a hotdog as just a few bucks, and the ingredients that would go into that are maybe not the ingredients you would want to eat. We're working with this great brand where all of their ingredients are ultra-premium. It tastes amazing. It might cost a few dollars more than your typical hotdog, but we have to break down, where would this product be sold? Who would it be sold to? What type of benefits would a prospective buyer be looking for? That might be health, that might be ease of making it, things like that. But they do taste great. [laughs] I always love working with our consumer brands, especially in the food and drink business, because one of the benefits that we get is we get to try the product. I've probably worked with 50 alcohol brands or something by now, and that's always fun because you have to try it out. You have to make recipes, you have to shoot the product. You get to meet fascinating people all over the country. ROB: That might help with recruiting too. MATTHEW: [laughs] It's always a fun gig. ROB: You're like, “Hey, come here. Here's who we work with.” That makes sense, especially on the premium food side. There's a trend here that is fascinating. You're talking about educating people around considered purchases, but it is interesting how it spans across consumer versus the business side. The awareness, the consideration, the purchase, that's all there. You're not very much into the transactional world. You have digital in your name, but I would imagine you also – how do you think about traditional media as part of the media mix when you're talking about these long-term considered purchases? MATTHEW: Oh, without a doubt. Our expertise is certainly in the digital world, and that's where my background comes from. But I think as our business grows and as we take on more mature clients, we very much had to get into the space where it's also billboard, it's also print. It really matters where our target market is. I'm not going to only focus on a digital solution if my client's market isn't active there. We're working with a pet brand now, and we have two audiences that we need to communicate with. We need to communicate with the general public; those would be our more traditional consumer channels, and for us, we definitely highlight on the digital side there. But we can also focus on print media. We can focus on traditional news, media buying, things like that. But then there's this other audience, which is very industry-specific. Those are your retail buyers, your industry trades. Things like that, we might go with a more traditional mix than a more digital mix. But I've been a big proponent of this digital revolution for many years. It's sort of mirroring what my own personal habits were. I'm 34 now, so I've seen – I'm at that age where when I was younger, it was only traditional, and I've seen more and more brands moving to the digital space. If the last few years have taught us anything, we went from where you had to sell clients on the concept of digital 10-15 years ago, but now they all understand that that's where they need to be. They just need to know exactly what they have to do and what exactly they should be doing. ROB: It probably gives you a pretty good advantage. A lot of traditional media is digitizing in the buying, whether you're talking about billboards, out of home, whether you're talking about TV and you have the OTT stuff. That becomes an increasingly digital buy, I think. You might know better. MATTHEW: You're absolutely right. We were hesitant to recommend things like traditional billboards to our clients in the past. We're this interesting marriage of being data-driven but also creative-driven. If we couldn't get the right data for why we were buying something or why a client should be there, it was hard for me to make that recommendation. I might say, let's conduct some hopefully siloed experiment where if we buy this particular billboard without digital capabilities, let's see if we can see any noticeable lift in sales or phone calls. We can have a tracking number. We can send them to a unique URL that's on the billboard. But if it was hard for us to measure, it was hard for us to manage. With billboards now, especially in the digital space, there are Bluetooth – I'm not sure what the phrase is, but there's this Bluetooth tracking on it so it can try to ping all the phones driving by to give us some information on that. We can also purchase particular space if we only want it between 12:00 and 2:00 and 4:00 and 6:00 when people are driving back and forth. It just gives us more options than a general “This billboard is on the corner of X & X.” ROB: I'm just curious, because I've seen things on billboards that I would never have expected would have the correct ROI for the cost. What is the cost and entry point to get into a digital billboard placement? I see restaurants hiring for chefs and I'm like, man, how does that ever ROI? Or maybe they're thinking more about awareness. It seems like it doesn't add up to me, but how does that work? MATTHEW: There is such a variation in what these prices are. It's tough to give you an exact number. I would think there might be a branding component there. We bought a billboard for a client a few weeks back, and we were looking at rural markets versus urban markets, how many people. The urban billboard, I think we were looking at something like $15-$20K a month versus the rural one was maybe $800 or $1,000 or something. ROB: Wow. MATTHEW: So there's a wide variation of what those costs should be. With a message like “We need to hire someone,” that's not the message you would expect. [laughs] I'm not tracking that; I don't know what their ROI is. It's possible they just really needed workers. But it's also possible they're thinking about it from a brand place. ROB: Right, I get that. It's like, “Hey, we're a restaurant, we're here.” Even maybe an opportunity afforded by digital is you get to shift up the creative more often, sometimes saying you're hiring and sometimes talking about your fish and chips. MATTHEW: That's exactly it. ROB: Rotating the message. MATTHEW: Yes. Frequency – we have to heavily consider that, because you don't want to give the same individual the same message 10 times in a row. It will fall flat. It may also be that that particular restaurant purchased a set amount of billboard space, and they were committed to that for X amount of months, and it came to be that they were already busy, or perhaps COVID changed things for them, and they decided, with the digital billboard, “Let's allocate 15% of that space to hiring. We've already accomplished some of the goals we intended to here, and the money has already been spent, so let's use it for something that can affect us right now.” ROB: Matthew, let's rewind the clock here a little bit. Talk us through the origin story of Emerald Digital. Where did this business come from? What led you to start it? What were you leaving behind? All of that. MATTHEW: Let me give you a little run-through here. I got into this marketing world – I've been a musician for over 25 years, and in my late teens I was heavily into music production. I started selling songs to Heineken, Hennessey, and some other large brands for the digital content they were at that time producing. I was able to do this through some ad agency contacts in New York City, which ultimately led me to partnering with one of the creative directors there, and we created a video curation and production platform called Chunnel TV. After the Great Recession hit, we were unable to raise any more money for that, and I moved to a traditional market agency in New Orleans, where I was heavily involved in social and ambassador programs. A few years later, I decided to start my own firm. This is I think where the story of Emerald begins. At that point, I started a firm called Ember Networks. We focused heavily on social, web, and SEO. A lot of the time, there were other agencies that were hiring us. They would say they were able to do XYZ, but they either didn't have the bandwidth or the ability to, so they white-labeled out. More and more over time, I began working with a firm called Herald PR, which is owned by one of my dear friends. He was in New York City. He was my college roommate, so we were always bouncing ideas off of each other. As an agency owner, it's always helpful to have that bouncing-off point. “How are you doing this? How are you doing that?” So we started working together more and more on escalating projects. After a few years, we had a client who was a villa in the Turks and Caicos. Villa Bella Vita. It's absolutely gorgeous. We went down there, we were shooting drones and doing pictures, and we had brought some of our other clients down. We said, “Why are we doing this separately? Our teams are already integrated. They're already working together. We're able to take on larger projects together and work smarter than we are alone, so let's create a joint venture.” So Emerald is a joint venture between Ember and Herald PR. And you get to work with your friends. ROB: And hopefully you get to go back down to that villa every now and again. MATTHEW: Yes, we do, actually. [laughs] ROB: [laughs] That's good, to revisit the origin a little bit in that way, for sure. MATTHEW: Yeah. That's one of the benefits of working a little bit in the luxury space. You get to look at some of these beautiful places. ROB: As we follow the narrative of Emerald Digital, that's a good starting point. What have been some key inflection points, some times in the business where the difficulty level ramped up a little bit? MATTHEW: Well, an obvious one I think would be last year. I think everyone was under similar stress. We had to shut down both of our offices, but at the same time, we were growing at a tremendous pace. We were hiring, hiring, hiring. I think our team tripled or something last year. We were trying to identify people, work with them, merge them into our team, and inculcate them on the business without being in the same physical space. So I would say that was particularly challenging. That very much led us to hyper-focusing on the documentation of our processes and making sure that we had the right communication tools in place to try to break down these physical barriers that we have now, because we have people all over the country now. While our team was mainly focused in New Orleans and New York, during the last year we've had people want to move out of Manhattan; we've had people trying to move a little closer to the middle of the country, whether that's the Midwest, Michigan, and we've had a certain amount of team members moving to Florida. So how do we collaborate? How do we communicate? How are we working efficiently in this environment where we're all separated? That was a pretty major challenge. But it really led us to hyper-focusing on what these processes were and then implementing a toolset that was able to mold our workflow so that we weren't looking at “This thing is on Dropbox and this thing is on Drive and this guy communicates on Zoom and this person communicates on Slack.” It was looking at all of the different things we were doing across two offices, and now we're trying to operationalize this entire business. ROB: That's a really interesting thread to pull on. What are some of those key tools, practices? What makes distributed work for Emerald? MATTHEW: The first thing was we had to write all of these SOPs. First it was, what are the different stages in the work that we have to do, whether it's account service, biz dev, sales, the content creation process – everything from the brainstorm to the client revision to the scheduling to the ad buying? It was mapping out each of these different things we do. I think one of the first things was we wrote this book. I think we had 91 individual SOPs. And it didn't at that point cover everything. So it was like, all right, we have all of these SOPs. No one's going to read 91 separate things, so we need to put them in a single place that everyone can see at all times, and we have to add video. We added GIFs. We unified all of the documents. We had that all in a drive. But then in the last few months, we moved over to a program called ClickUp. It's been fantastic. We're very happy to have moved over because we can aggregate all of our docs. We implemented all of our different processes into the actual software, so we were able to automate a lot of different things. We were able to streamline a lot of our reporting as well and a lot of our client communication. If there was a particular deliverable we had, we were able to have that automatically pull up. So if we have a social client that needs XYZ, when that job is created, it will pull in the SOPs that we have made and automatically pull in some of our primary documentation so that the employee doesn't need to go looking for it or even realize they have to pull that up. It'll just have it right there.  ROB: Sure, and then nobody has to ask where something is, right? They can go look for it, actually, which is helpful. MATTHEW: Yes. Not only be able to look for it, but to remind them that it's there. I think that first month when everyone was working from home, it was, “Where is this thing? Where is that thing? Which folder?” It was a big organizational task. Not only to have it where it's all in a place that the person can find, but it's to create automated reminders and touchpoints on our end so that we don't even have to find it. It's right there. “Hey, by the way, since you're making a social media post, here's a few things that might help you out. Here's previous creative. Here's file assets. Here's a step-by-step on how to do this. Here's a video. And if you need help, here's a simple form that you can fill out right there, and that form will automatically be sent to your superior, our management team, or even our leadership.” ROB: Has it been difficult for everyone to make that transition? It seems like that's a cultural shift, and with that comes the privilege of being able to be distributed, of being able to move to Florida whenever you want. But has that been a tough transition across the team in some cases? MATTHEW: I want to point out that I'm so happy with the way our team has adapted. Everyone has done a tremendous job, to the point where I think in many cases we're more efficient now than we even were before. But I think on a personal level, for many people, with that shift in not going to the office and being in the same house with all of your kids who can't go to school for months at a time, or for even the new hires, there's certainly difficulty there. Or we have employees who have older parents. So there's certainly difficulties. But I think on a professional level, our team has adapted to it tremendously. ROB: That's good news. It's a tricky transition. Now, as you're spread apart, how are you thinking about in person? Is there a cadence of getting together, or is it off the table for now? MATTHEW: That's a great question. With your previous question, you asked what some of the challenges are, and I think one of the biggest ones, especially for me and our creative team, is there are these great ideas that happen off the cuff around the water cooler, and you can sit around a whiteboard in the same physical space and be like, “Wouldn't it be cool if we did XYZ?” There is absolutely something to being in the same physical space. I don't want to discount that. Where I believe we will be moving to as things open up is a more flex time model, where you can come into the office two or three times a week and then you can work from home the rest of the time. If you're not in a location where one of the offices is, then obviously you cannot come in. But wherever possible, I think we're going to identify physical opportunities for everyone to get together, whether that's once a quarter or – we're not sure exactly what that frequency is. But we have several different cadences now for our team to brainstorm, to basically connect. We have an all hands meeting every Monday, every Friday, and then each of our separate teams meets every single morning. “What are we doing today? What are our goals? How did yesterday go?” Those are our primary touchpoints. Most of us are in communication with each other throughout the day anyway, but it's still good to get everyone on those face-to-faces. On a digital face-to-face, I should say. ROB: [laughs] Absolutely. Matthew, as you think back on the journey so far, what are maybe some lessons you have learned that you would tell yourself to do a little bit differently if you were starting from scratch? MATTHEW: I think to document these processes is something I would've done much, much sooner. It would've helped us scale a lot faster, and I think a lot more efficiently. So certainly that. And it would have allowed us to train and hire people in a much easier manner, and I think for us to even identify what some of our own roadblocks were and to have a better understanding of what repeatable processes we have and where we can identify pain points and how we can grow those. And certainly another one for myself – for many years, I wanted to see every creative and had to approve it. It was almost like all roads went through me. That's a tough thing to let go of, but as a business owner, you have to. You have to trust the people that you're hiring to make the decisions that you hired them to do, and only to come to you when they need you, or for you to bring them that strategic vision or directive. But give them enough room to do their job properly. So I would say, “Chill out, Matt. Let go.” [laughs] Bring on the smartest people that you possibly can. That's a really major part. You as the business owner want to be the dumbest person in the entire room. Your job is to hire the smartest people for the best job that you can find, and hire them no matter what it takes so that you can trust them to do what they do well. ROB: How do you time that transition? Because clearly, you start the thing from zero and you're going to be working in the business, necessarily. Very few people – I know one guy that bought five agencies and he just starts being in charge. But for most of us, you're starting with a special talent. You're starting with that skill that you have being the reason that people come to you, and then you start having people fill in some of your weaknesses, and then people who also have your strengths. How do you think about when to start turning the corner on getting yourself out of every piece of creative? How do you time that? MATTHEW: That's a great question. Certainly bringing in smart people and then making sure they know exactly the job they're supposed to do, and then giving them – maybe working with them for the first month or two, where you are a little more hands-on, and just ensure that your processes work. Just oversee. Say, “I built all these processes out. I have trained you. Here's enough room for you to do it yourself.” And you set, “Every Thursday I'm going to dedicate three hours to ensuring that this foundation that we've made is actually working.” You start with different topics. Maybe I'm going to let go of all of the creative when it comes to social posts and video production, but I'm still going to hold on to this web dev side. For now, I want to be able to test everything and I want to be able to overlook the code. I just want to make sure everything's working properly. I think one by one, start making sure that each of those teams has that process down. I would start thinking about what unique assets you have. Are you the best at social? Are you the best web guy? Are you the best for overall strategy? Did you create a web firm because you're a killer coder? Start thinking about the things that you can offload that maybe don't fall into your expertise as much as the others. ROB: That makes perfect sense. As we look at the future of Emerald and of the work that you do for clients, what's coming up? What's the future look like? What's exciting there? What should we be looking out for? MATTHEW: Awesome. If we talk general industry – and I kind of mentioned this before, but it felt like for many years we had to pitch about why you should be in the digital space at all. That conversation, especially in the last two years, has really shifted to “You know that you have to be here. Now we can do some really interesting things.” Our clients are much more on board with this concept of telling a never-ending story, having an ongoing narrative that can be broken up into digestible pieces across multiple platforms, multiple touchpoints. I think that's very exciting as a storyteller. We can create video, we can create audio, we can do all these interesting things. I think that's really fun. That brings us to what's on the horizon. We're not going to be using the same platforms forever, and they change all of the time. More and more, we're seeing movement in the AR, VR, and AI space. I think it's really exciting. There's this fantastic firm up in New York that we are friends with, and some of the stuff they create is this marriage of a digital space with a real-world space. I think as a storyteller, that opens up so many different avenues for us, because now all of your content and all of your communication doesn't have to be flat. It can be 3D. It can be all-encompassing. You can build things that can sit on someone's table and look like they actually exist. So I'm very excited for that AR/VR space, and then on the AI side, it's certainly helping us to more intelligently gather and parse out what our data means, but also to create content faster. ROB: Lots going on there. It would probably be a whole interesting other conversation to get into the level and approach and who's appropriate to get into AR/VR. But I think with the right creative people, a lot is certainly possible. MATTHEW: Yeah. I definitely think we're still a few years out, and it's probably a matter of one of these big tech firms releasing the Apple Glasses or a contact lens. I think the general user hasn't adopted these yet. We're very much still in the first mover advantage. It's not quite there. But part of our role as a business owner here is to set the business up for success 10 years from now. We don't want to be the best Facebook ads guys in 10 years. We want to be the guys that are doing the next thing great as well. ROB: Excellent. Matthew, when people want to track you down, and Emerald Digital, how should they connect with you? MATTHEW: Check us out at https://emerald.digital. ROB: Awesome. We get these hot new domains. I kind of want to get a .digital myself, but maybe just to track my billboard ads. I don't know. We'll get there. [laughs] MATTHEW: Yes, done. [laughs] ROB: Thank you so much, Matthew. Thank you for coming on, for sharing. Best wishes to you and the whole Emerald team. MATTHEW: Thank you so much. ROB: And all the good stuff going on in New York and New Orleans and beyond, right? MATTHEW: And beyond. ROB: Excellent. Have a wonderful day, a wonderful week, and thank you so much, Matthew. MATTHEW: Thank you, Rob, for absolutely everything. Cheers. ROB: Cheers. Bye. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

The only thing more challenging than using frenetic DIY self-publishing to springboard a career in children's books might be running a commercial salmon fishery on the Alaskan tundra from a cabin with no electricity, no toilet, and four kids. That's why I was so excited to talk to Robbi Behr and Matthew Swanson, the illustrator-author-married-with-4-kids duo. Robbi illustrates, Matthew writes, and together they make picture books for kids and adults. Robbi and Matthew are a whirlwind of creative action, and their story is just a crazy tale of inventing a creative life that allows them to make the work that's 100% most aligned with who they are and what they value. They started on this path when Matthew got his "most withering rejection", which slammed the door on how they thought their lives would play out. They turned even this painful setback into an opportunity, so it's no surprise that their approach to life has opened the door to amazing lucky breaks. In this interview, we talk about the value of the right kind of day job, how to develop a unique and authentic brand, and why you should definitely NOT try to marry Robbi Behr. More from the episode... Robbi and Matthew joke about the rejection that inspired their creative partnership: "I applied to six graduate schools and I got seven letter of rejection. The University of Minnesota rejected me twice on consecutive Mondays." The two ways you can respond to life's challenges, according to Matthew: "You can have power of conviction behind a story and try everything you can to make that version of the story come true. Or you can pick a thread and follow the thread and let the thread itself be the driving force and see what story materializes." "We live a perfectly comfortable life while being full-time creatives and I just have this other thing on top of it that pays the bills." — Why Matthew still has a day job, despite their success making books. The chance encounter that led to Robbi and Matthew's first commercially published book and what it takes to make your own luck. How "leaping at the first possibility" led to Robbi and Matthew's biggest mistake, and what they could have done differently. Robbi and Matthew discuss developing their unique brand and why authenticity is so important: "I think if you're very deliberate and purposeful upfront about what you will and will not create and you stick to it, then you're more likely at the end where it starts to become more of a business or a profession or a money-generating mechanism for you and others to still be doing what you love." What are the benefits of commercial publishing, and why are Robbi and Matthew excited about returning to self-publishing one day? Robbi and Matthew consider their creative differences an asset. What makes their partnership productive and how do they resolve conflict? Alaskan salmon fishing: the forty-year tradition begun by Robbi's father that Matthew describes as "indescribably unpleasant and yet it's magical." A question about fate reveals how Robbi and Matthew met. More from our guests: Robbi is an illustrator/printmaker/commercial salmon fisherwoman with a BA from Williams College and an MFA from the Savannah College of Art and Design. Matthew is a writer/art director/blues harmonica player who has so far failed in every attempt to be swashbuckling. Robbi illustrates. Matthew writes. Together they make picture books for kids and adults. They're also married. And they do all this with four kids. They've published books including Everywhere Wonder, The Real McCoys, Babies Ruin Everything, and more than 70+ self-published books before breaking into commercial press! Next up for this duo? They're converting a 24 foot school bus into a tiny home that they'll be living in with their four kids (and a puppy!) while they travel for a year and give away 50,000 free books to high-poverty schools! They're currently fundraising for this project, and you can learn more about it here. Plus, check out “The Daily Minute” — a series of daily videos exactly a minute long (there's a timer and everything) that purport to be about their creative process, but often include marital antics, funny things that have happened to them, cameos by their kids, and lots of cheese balls on either Instagram or Facebook. Connect with Robbi Behr and Matthew Swanson robbiandmatthew.com instagram @robbi.and.matthew twitter @drawingrobbi twitter @writingmatthew facebook.com/robbiandmatthew https://ie.gofundme.com/f/robbi-matthews-busload-of-books-tour Additional Links idiotsbooks.com bobbledybooks.com https://www.crowdcast.io/e/acpod-robbi-and-matthewThe Autonomous Creative is brought to you by Authentic Visibility: marketing for creatives who (think they) hate marketing. Learn more here!

This week Matthew and Kim examine the second pillar, communication. As one of our core qualities, communication is key to building a durable and prosperous relationship. It's not always easy, but Matthew and Kim are here to teach you how to express yourself in a more effective way. Tune in for hilarious anecdotes, honest advice, and exercises that can bring you and your partner closer every day. Key topics-Practicing active listening -Love mapping -How to avoid your partner's ‘hot buttons' during an argument -Using a ‘soft start up' during a confrontation  -Validating your partner's emotionsQuotes“Being a good listener means you have to seek first to understand… then be understood.” -Matthew “Love mapping is really knowing each other, and really making a point to periodically update each other on what's going on in our lives and asking really great open-ended questions of each other.” - Kim“I have not always been a great communicator. I have been that person that can go from zero to sixty really quickly, and all of a sudden my heart rate is up and I'm jumping in, and I go down that rabbit hole and tend to be critical.” -Kim “You really want to make sure you are making ‘I' statements not ‘you' statements... If you instead turn around and say ‘I feel this' or ‘when we had that conversation I felt this'... It's really a great way to communicate without being condemning.” -Matthew “When you're pointing at someone and saying ‘you.' You've got one finger going at someone, and three going back at you… Anytime you're accusing somebody you're forgetting that the lion share of responsibility probably lies on your shoulders.” - Matthew “When somebody says something that can be hurtful or damaging, or disrespectful and they tag on ‘hey just kidding;' just kidding is not a get out of jail free card because it doesn't take away the sting... If you have to say that after something, you probably shouldn't have made the statement.” -Matthew“You've got to create a culture of appreciation, and keeping an emotional contact with your spouse.”- Kim “What can you say to your spouse to plant a rose in their garden; something that you appreciate about what they just did, or that they always do, or that you remember one of the reasons why you fell in love with them.”- MatthewFor access to workshops with professional therapists, keynote speakers, hot seat training and more exclusive content join our online learning community at: https://matthewphoffman.comFollow us:Instagram: @kickasscouplesnationFacebook: @KickasscouplesnationTwitter: @kickasscouplesPre-Order Kickass Husband Kickass Husband: Winning at Life, Marriage, and Sex by Matthew Hoffmanhttps://matthewphoffman.comLeave a review to show your support! 

In this week's episode, Matthew and Kim interview long-time friends Trish and Vinnie Biondoletti. Vinnie runs a successful fishing charter company in the Florida Keys, while Trish works as a high school educator. These high school sweethearts began dating when they were just thirteen and fourteen years old, and not much has changed since.  Through childhood adversity, demanding careers, and raising three children, Vinnie and Trish continue to prove their spark is alive as ever. Key topics Rising from childhood adversity Creating time for your partner while tending to daily responsibilities Giving your partner what they need and avoiding landmines The importance of intimacy Quotes “Love in my house, it wasn't really there, it was more of a hostile environment. It's hard to talk about but I feel like I'm lucky because without those things I wouldn't be the person I am.” -Trish “I don't care if you're 13 or 14 or 37 it doesn't matter when you find that person that takes your heart, you're committed, and I think we found it early.” -Vinnie “Whether it was the pick-up line for your kid or a walk around the neighborhood at night or on the boat… whether you're pulling a trap up, lobster or a crab trap. Doing what you had to do but making sure you had that time to connect. -Matthew “Why step on a landmine if you know its a landmine, that's insanity, I know I'm going to get hurt and I'm going to do it anyways” -Matthew “The greatest predictors of divorce or a relationship falling apart is when spouses can not accept influence from each other or are not willing to” -Matthew“You have to have love and if you have love everything else kinda falls into place. If I had to go back to that pre-marriage self I'd say make sure you have love it really is the most important thing If you love somebody wholeheartedly everything else will work itself out,” -Trish For access to workshops with professional therapists, keynote speakers, hot seat training and more exclusive content join our online learning community at: https://matthewphoffman.comFollow us:Instagram: @kickasscouplesnationFacebook: @KickasscouplesnationTwitter: @kickasscouplesPre-Order Kickass Husband Kickass Husband: Winning at Life, Marriage, and Sex by Matthew Hoffmanhttps://matthewphoffman.comLeave a review to show your support!

In episode 5, Brittany and Aurelia recount stories of their child self, extend love, and embrace wisdom that our inner child teaches. We focus on liberating our child self to create freedom in adulthood. Join our communiTEA to engage in our weekly mantras like “liberate little you” for episode 5. Listen to Nuance Tea on Apple Podcasts and Spotify or your favorite podcast platform! Theme song by Sherricka Yvette, Jam Session Find her music on Spotify Follow her on IG @sherrickayvette Show Intro (0:18) The Roundup (0:35) Favorite moments on the Grammys Holding space for the lives lost in the recent mass shootings Brittany's recent Advocate's Prayer published in the Christian Citizen, “Standing in Solidarity with the Asian American community” The Essentials (8:11) Brittany is going with the flow More ways to support Nuance Tea, coming soon! Aurelia's favorite song of all time, Jhene Aiko's “Love” Inner Child conversation (12:45) The wisdom of our inner child Intuitive writing through The Aura House Send love to your child self The gift of vulnerability Mantra: Liberate Little You (33:16) Hillary: Care less about what other people think or want for you Matthew: “You will find your people” Alicia: “There is nothing wrong with you, you are perfect as you are” Bethany: “It gets better, you are pretty great the way God made you” Find our communiTEA on IG & Facebook @nuanceteapodcast (37:14)

Matthew: "You're doing this thing that is quite literally impossible to do by yourself. It also makes you feel like you're a part of the universe... that you are making you're more of an impact than you think you ever could alone".Gigi: "Through taking voice lessons I discovered... "Oh! I get to learn other languages if I sing in this style!"Join us for Episode 6 of Heritage Choir featuring Matthew Valverde and Regina Stroncek. Gigi and Matthew are choral musicians, solo performers and self proclaimed language geeks. Our conversation explores why Spanish and Portguese are so often ignored, what it feels like to sing in a choir, and a special story featuring Gigi's theme song.Want more behind the scenes? Follow us on Facebook (@bordercrossingmn) or Instagram (@border_crossing_choir) or check out our website: www.bordercrossingmn.orgCheck out the video version here!https://youtu.be/syaN8miQDRU

Why don’t more companies offer affordable international shipping? The answer is because navigating the world of VAT, customs, international duties, and other intricacies make this too much of a headache for most eCommerce operators. Additionally, technical components, payment options, logistics and, yes, varying holiday calendars are all variables that a company needs to consider when it is expanding globally. It’s nearly impossible to do without some sort of help.  So the question becomes how do you face this nightmare ready and prepared? That’s where Matthew Merrilees comes in. Matthew is the CEO, North America for Global-e, and they solve these problems. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Matthew shares the ins and outs of what it takes to equip your ecommerce brand for international expansion.  Whether you need to address currency concerns or want to understand the data that drives your competitors to success in the market, Matthew shares those secrets and more on today’s episode.  Main Takeaways: Is It a Holiday? — When brands expand internationally, it’s important to know and plan for holidays that affect customers in every single market. There are opportunities being missed by companies who are too focused on the big international holidays and not enough on local strategy.  Pay With Ease — Customers want transactions to be simple. Anything that makes a transaction hard, or confusing, will almost certainly result in an abandoned purchase. Implementing an integrated, hyper-localized payment and taxation strategy is one of the first things companies need to consider when expanding internationally. Plan B — Companies and individuals are currently experiencing many unexpected disruptions in life and business. Being able to navigate through those disruptions is necessary in order to continue providing the best possible customer experience. Creating contingency plans and backup systems to deploy if there is a disruption in your logistics or backend operations will take you a long way.   For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Welcome back to another episode of Up Next in Commerce. I'm your host, Stephanie Postles, co-founder of Mission.org. And today on the show, we have Matthew Merrilees, the CEO of North America at Global-e. Matthew, Welcome. Matthew: Hey, pleasure to be here Stephanie. Thanks so much for having me. Stephanie: So, I want to dive in a bit into your background. It looks like you've worked at a lot of different logistics companies. Before we touch on Global-e, I was hoping we could go over your background a bit and how you got to where you are. Matthew: Yeah, for sure. It gets a bit about me, and my background, definitely started, I would say from call it my family history, just the family history of fathers and brothers. And call it family members who grew up in operations logistics, and obviously [inaudible] Ecommerce. So, I think as I followed the family tree and fell into place, I think all in all it definitely did kick off and start my career at DHL Express, where I spent quite a number of years in various different positions, leadership roles, and such. And then made the transition to FedEx where I definitely did a lot of the same. And obviously, now here at Global-e. I think when you look at the background, straight from university into the logistics arena, was quite exciting. Stephanie: Yep. Very cool. So tell me a little bit about Global-e. What is the company? And what kind of customers do you guys have? And how do you interact with them? Matthew: Yeah, for sure. What we are is a cross border enablement platform, right? We focus primarily in three different arenas that support our brands, which is in boosting international conversion rates, which is boosting overall sales and revenue of course. And then most importantly, boosting customer satisfaction for an international transaction. Right? So I think when you look at the vast portfolio of brands that we work with from a global perspective... I mean, we worked with over 350 enterprise global brands, right? Matthew: So when you look at some of the likes of, let's just call it Forever 21, Reformation and Anastasia Beverly Hills, Marc Jacobs, Hugo boss, Versace. But, I think when you look at the broad gamut of brands, I mean it is something that is, for me, always eye opening. Just how we're able to help take an international transaction and really, truly localize it to a way that consumer in that individual market would really expect to buy online. And I think there's a lot of barriers when you look at the international market and how we help these brands really position that data, that knowledge, that insight, and that expertise is really I'd say where we come in and help. Stephanie: Cool. And what stage does a company need to be at to partner with Global-e? Do they need to be as big as Forever 21, or could a new DTC company also utilize your great services? Matthew: Really it's any size, shape or brand. I would say just over I think seven years ago now we deployed the business, right? And I think we came out of the gate with a very strong enterprise focus. But, I think as we evolved we saw the demand in market for small medium enterprise type brands. Really it's any size, shape or brand who has let's just call it an Ecommerce platform running an online digital storefront. And it is someone that obviously has an Ecommerce strategy in place today. So it's not just the Bigs that I think you see in the market that we continue to focus on and then come into the portfolio. I think it's also those brands that are digitally native, that are really looking to capture revenue outside of their home market. So I think it's really any size, shape or size customer that could lead to that discussion. Stephanie: Cool. I was hoping we could kind of start the episode there around what are maybe some international fails you see happening with brands right now, or hiccups that maybe new companies would encounter if they don't use a solution that figures out all the different challenges when selling across borders. Matthew: Yeah, for sure. I think sales are important. Obviously, I think brands all have different approaches to sale, right? There are some heavy sale brands by design. There are some flash sale businesses out there that really drive high, heavy traffic to a limited amount of inventory. And then I think there's your typical sale holidays where everyone's on sale, which is typically your Black Friday type periods that we recognize here in the North American market. But, I think as brands start to think internationally and think what sales exists outside of just this US home market. For us, we start to really get into the education process, which is number one; what are the holidays that are happening outside of the USA? Is it Singles Day? Is it Boxing Day? Is it Click Frenzy in Australia, for example? Which I think is the beginning part for a lot of the brands that we tend to work with. Matthew: I'd say number one, what are the holidays? What and where do these holidays exist? And then number two, how do you get prepared in order to approach that consumer? Is it a similar approach that we have to a domestic customer here in the US? They're going to need to be spoken to and treated in a unique way that more relates to them in that market. So I think sales are critically important. But, I think with branding awareness of when they're happening, why they're happening, and how to really give that consumer, let's just say the customer satisfaction experience that they would expect, is important. Stephanie: Yep. Are there any holidays that come to mind that you've seen a bunch of brands missing? Because I've heard of a couple of them like Singles Day. I think especially more recently, we started hearing about these other sales that go on around the world. But, is there any big opportunities or a time when you say, "Hey, there's a sale happening." And a lot of brands are like, "Oh, I've never heard of that." Or, "That's never come across my radar before." But, it's like a big important one? Matthew: Honestly, the three I listed, and the reason for listing them is because they are the most important, that typically I would say a lot of brands are just not aware of. And believe it or not, don't have strategies planned around. They used to be sales, and I think that specifically the two in both Boxing Day, and I'd say most importantly, Click Frenzy, is probably the one that is most highly missed out of the portfolio of brands. Just saying, "Wow! Click Frenzy, I didn't realize how large it was." And it's something that we absolutely want to help tailor to our market, which is such a key focus market for a lot of US brands in Australia. Stephanie: Got it. So what kind of strategies are you maybe suggesting to them? Maybe we'll focus on those two. How would you walk a brand through these holidays and maybe how to approach it to get into that market? Matthew: I think it all begins with the communication. So number one, we talked about the education, the awareness, which is obviously going to be key. And then I think with the brand. Every brand, as I mentioned earlier, the approach sale differently. So I think when you look at whether it be a flash sale business, whether it be a traditionally just natively sale business, who's very highly discounted down to high luxury brands that like to go on sale at certain times per year, typically two times or so per year, I think it all begins with their engagement. And obviously a lot of the brands, they free up their time for these marketing efforts. And we help break down a lot of barriers to get them to focus their time on the strategy. But, I think it begins with a setting strategy for each one of these markets. Matthew: And it begins with communication. How are you going to touch that consumer? How are you going to touch that consumer in a way that relates locally to them? And then obviously making sure that you have all the tools in place to execute on that sale so that when that consumer hits for an Australian day like Frenzy, they're seeing their currency in Australian dollars. They're aware of GST and the 10% that has to be captured on every single order that is being built in your product price. These are things that you need to communicate, "Hey, we've got a great sale going on. But, hey, also we accept your local currency. You can come buy with confidence." So I think as long as the marketing strategies within the brands are executing them the way they typically do, I think the next step there is to make sure that they've got the tools and the site in place to then obviously relate to that customer. Stephanie: Got it. And are you helping them implement those technologies? Or are you more giving avenues of like, "You couldn't implement this tech stack or you could go with this one." Matthew: So we typically implement it. Right? So all of our brands, even all of the ones that I've spoken about in the entire portfolio, basically what Global-e is doing is helping, let's just say arm and equip their site to be able to speak to an international consumer. And I'd say a lot of brands, come to us and say, "Hey, we view you as our international outsource Ecommerce team." Because we need to understand not only that I need to equip my US site to be able to speak to a consumer in China versus Singapore, versus Thailand and Canada and Australia and so on but, I also need to know what's the right proposition. How do I take insights and data and duty and tax? And what do I do with all of these different elements that are barriers to that customer buying? And how do we break it down so it's local to that consumer and market? And these are when I say quick to site and be ready for that type of volume to be hitting your site so that you're able to convert that customer, that's where Global-e comes into play. Stephanie: Got it. It seems like, you mentioned data earlier, it seems like you would have access to a ton of data from working with all these brands and seeing what works and what doesn't work. Tell us a little bit about some of the insights that you guys are seeing and also teaching your brands when it comes to selling internationally. Matthew: Sure. So I think the first thing that in an engagement with a brand that we have, right? Because there's brands of all different verticals, as you can imagine whether it be fashion and retail, whether it be beauty, whether it be footwear, streetwear and so on and so forth. So I think the one biggest insight in a lot of brands I would say, come to us for is, we want to understand what the rest of our vertical's doing. How are they being successful? What are they doing to target consumers? And let's just say all these parts of the world. So we really, I think from a data perspective, we consolidate it. And we sit on mountains of data that we can then drive from an insight's perspective to the brand that, "Hey, based off of where you're selling today and based off of where you should be selling tomorrow, we're going to help you build a strategy on let's just say end to end perspective. Right? Matthew: So it all starts from when the consumer hits the site, right? Currency, how are you going to show it? How are you going to also locally round that currency to make sure that it's a number that that consumer can relate to in that market. Down to duty and tax strategies, shipping propositions, and all of the elements that we know are going to have an impact to a consumer buying. And as an example of that for a few key markets that we can at least relate to, Canada. Canada is a market that acts very much like the US. And I'd say far too many US brands that we tend to see will typically treat, let's just say a Canadian shopper as they would a shopper within Singapore. And basically just take that product that they're selling and sell it at the same experience worldwide and say, "Okay. But, did I think that a Canadian customer is used to paying tax when they hit a local shop to buy the shirt?" They never ever see the term duty in market experience. Matthew: So on your site, you should never ever display duty and taxes as part of an overall transaction. Otherwise, that consumer's going to be shocked to see extra costs and abandon. And there's other elements to, how do we factor in duty into the product price? Because that's typically going to be a conversion driver for that Canadian consumer. And that goes even into markets like Europe and the UK, where it's that inclusive. The typical buying experience for a European consumer. So the second that a US brand now puts at the point of checkout duty and tax and breaks it out, it's going to cut their conversion in half. So these are the insights on a market by market basis where every country is and has to be looked at independently. And as far as too many times when we come into these conversations, our brand's just taking a single strategy for the world. And I think that's kind of one of the biggest opportunities to help our brand succeed. Stephanie: Got it. Yeah. That's great. How are you all staying on top of consumer preferences or making sure that you're staying on top of what's hot? You can think of WeChat, it came up pretty quickly. And how people are using it changes all the time it seems. How is you guys' company able to stay up with what people are expecting in different markets, and how they're buying? Matthew: Yes. I think honestly it has evolved over the years. I think as a mature business with a lot of mature brands that obviously we rely on and rely on us. Depending on which aspect you're looking out of the business, we've got a lot of robust technology internally that will help with that. So from a payment perspective, this is not going to be a single payment provider that's going to be able to take it to offering every single payment method that you need in your arsenal to be able to let's just say, service the world. I mean, enabling WeChat, Alipay, UnionPay into China's is critically important. But, to be able to enable that is a big challenge. So I think typically what we do to stay ahead of let's just say that front is we work very closely with our brands. Matthew: Like I said, there is a knowledge base out there with our brands that we've built up over these seven years that really drive and are a piece of driving our overall roadmap. So I think the voice of our customer is so critical that we continue to evolve, to adapt and definitely change. And then I think also internally with our focus only being cross border and international, we've built out the expertise, the knowledge and the data to understand that. And I think between the combination of the two, I think what we tend to do is always stay multiple steps ahead where a US brand can then focus their efforts on marketing on their US domestic market. And so for European brands, which is also no different. Stephanie: Yep. Makes sense. When I'm thinking about everything that's happening right now, it seems like there is a lot of buying shifts happening. But, I haven't really thought about maybe internationally, how the buying behaviors are changing. So I was hoping you could maybe touch on any trends or opportunities that you're seeing overseas right now that maybe other people can't spot because they don't have access to all the data that you do. Matthew: Where I was heading with it a minute ago is having a chat with myself. I think when we look at the brands, I think there's a lot of elements that we do bring from an insight's perspective. So when you look at the data, it's really a methodology around duty and tax we talked about. That's one very big element. How and what to do with duty and tax in every single market to showcase it. I think when you look at payments, another very big element like Alipay, you mentioned WeChat pay, UnionPay, all very important into China. But, then into other markets like Germany, where Klarna is a highly adopted installment type pay methods on all throughout the Nordics, it's critical and key. And you have to have that there in your arsenal to be able to convert a consumer or even acquire a consumer within that region. Matthew: And then I think we even get into let's just say the Netherlands, over 58% that as we see through our platform of all odors or within the Netherlands are paid with ideal. I think these are the elements when you look at duty and tax strategy, when you look at payment strategy, when you look at overall shipping strategy, right? You mentioned logistics carriers and the challenges that they're having today. Matthew: I think another element of that is from a logistics suite, offered your consumer a checkout, you need to make sure that that multi carrier approach is ready, equipped, and able to handle the volume that is going to be coming their way, especially as on a daily basis that can tell you our operations team is keeping up with the overall feedback from every single carrier from lane closures to lane impacted. Even just down to value, limitations and free ship thresholds and when to offer what. So I think as you look at the price strategy, the payment strategy, the duty and tax strategy, and you bring literally all of this together from a full end to end solution, that's really what obviously makes this a successful approach to brands. Stephanie: Cool. And are there any opportunities you see right now that are popping up? Or you're like, "I see a lot of maybe consumers internationally looking for this type of product." Or there's an unmet need here that could be solved. Any secrets that you have about these international markets? Matthew: I think for me, and typically what we tend to see in our market here is yes, brands come out of the gate saying, "Okay, I'm going to go international." What does that mean? That to a lot of our brands ends up meaning I want to focus my efforts on English speaking countries, such as Canada, UK, and Australia. And I think that's a good approach for brands to splash with. But, I think when you look at our business globally and we start to look at markets and regions, and then you call it... Any insights of secrets, I think right now what we've seen is the Gulf region. The Gulf region through COVID is a region that really has not decreased at all. And only seen a positive growth trends since, call it January of this year. Matthew: So when we let's just call it, are reaching like the peak of April, we saw over a 575% growth in year and year sales [inaudible 00:19:48], which basically the trend has only continued and accelerated May through June. So I think for me and a lot of what we're seeing, even specifically in that Gulf region with luxury with the UAE really accelerating with Saudi Arabia, with Kuwait, with Qatar. These are markets that brands never think in the US markets to put a strategy behind them. We're seeing such a huge growth globally that I think they're starting to rethink their strategies. Stephanie: Oh, that's a good one. And have they always been part of your arsenal or is that something also that you guys are pivoting a bit more into that area? Matthew: So, I think the beauty of what Global-e does with our brands is literally with a single integration, whether it be the currency, the hundred plus currencies that we enable. Or whether it be the 150 different payment methods that we offer, the duty and tax guarantee for limiting risk and liability to our brands, all of that pulled together in single integration, opens them up to the world. So the first thing is, make sure your site is set up for success. So that should a consumer from a certain market hit your site, then they're able to convert. And that is what Global-e does. And that enables let's just say, even the Gulf region out of the box. Matthew: And then it becomes, "Okay, now we've got a proper offering. Now conversion and sales is accelerated where we want it to be." And I think those second level conversations begin with the brands, their digital marketing teams, and how do I start acquiring new customers? How do I start really pushing my efforts to markets where I know that the demand is there and that I should not just waste my time trying to cover off all 220 countries and territories out there. Let's focus in major and majors. And let's really get a strategy together. This can have an impact to our overall celebration for business. Stephanie: Cool. So I'm thinking when it comes to international sales, the metrics that maybe you're providing back to your customers, or that you guys are looking at frequently, maybe differ a bit than US centric sales. What kind of metrics do you guys look at to see if things are going well? Matthew: So I think from our perspective that the major metrics that we tend to focus on with our brands is always going to be conversion rate. Conversion rate is something that as a hosted checkout solution, Global-e has a full impact on. So our brand's checkout is powered by Global-e as simply put. Meaning that we have hyper localized every element of that overall checkout. Which means if they're going to put in all of the effort from a marketing perspective to get that consumer to a point of checkout, we are going to make sure that they are going to buy. And I think when you look at the ability and the approach of that let's just say localization, conversion rate is always a forefront of what we look at with our brands. Matthew: And then I think sales growth, right? Sales growth as revenue is always going to be a second team metric that we 100% I would say, study and operate, and look at with our brands. And just full circle rounding it off as customer satisfaction. Even down to NPS scores with our brands that we share. And we look at down to the market level to make sure that if we're getting from some negative feedback in a certain market, why? How do we help better equip that experience from an Ecommerce perspective, to make sure that we're not just seeing and hearing that feedback but, we're actually it. Stephanie: Cool. When talking about negative feedback, I was just thinking about when launching a new product, it might be easier to think like, "Oh, I should go international." But, oftentimes people internationally don't like the same things maybe as the things that we like here. So, is there any advice or guiding that you do for these brands who maybe are like, "We want to go international, we want to go everywhere." Is there ever a time when you're like, "Actually, I'm pretty sure people in Asia would never use that." Like they don't like that. Matthew: No, I think from a brand perspective our approach is typically always going to be as a brand, it's the continuing drive to say the way that you've invested and looked at the domestic market. Not just from a fragmented perspective but, from a full end to end perspective, from the way that you talk to your customer, the way that you show them products, the way that you position products, the way that you promote products or free ship thresholds or show tax into certain markets. You can't do anything differently when it comes to international. The way that your strategies are built here domestically are not different than that of international. And when we really interact with our brand, it's specifically to help educate them on that overall fact because you're right, consumers expect different things in different markets. Matthew: And if you're not setting up your site for success to complete that, which is obviously what our biggest value add is, is that when our platform sits on top of your website, you don't have to worry about that anymore. Right? And you can now focus your effort on acquiring new business and new customers, which is really where brands want to be spending their time, especially the small and midsize ones who don't have these robust teams as some of the larger brands out there. You're talking to owners, you're talking to founders, you're talking to literally the folks that built this business from the ground up. Matthew: So they're involved on every single ticket that every single consumer puts through the site and they're reacting to it. That's why I think for them to not have the burden of thinking about currency, thinking about, "Hey, I have to now register my business in Australia or Norway, or Switzerland." Or what's happening in the UK with Brexit and how are duty in that threshold changing in a market like Canada, which is so important. This is stuff that they no longer have to think about. That's typically where we see the brands heading and we opened them up to the world so that they're truly giving an amazing experience for their consumers the first time it ever hits their site. Stephanie: Got it. Yeah. So it's essentially on the brands to make sure that they have a product that's good and that will sell internationally. Then you guys come in and take care of everything else. But, it's kind of up to them to do that due diligence and make sure that the product that they're about to bring internationally is actually a good fit for that market. Matthew: Absolutely. And I think when you look at the brands, obviously, product placement performance, they own and control the brand, right? At the end of the day the customer is the brand's customer. It's their data. They have access to all of this data. It's not ours, it's not our approach with the brands. It's always "Listen, we're going to push and give you all the bits of information that you need in order to market to that consumer." And then we also help through partnerships and other marketing channels, even let's just say bringing eyeballs to their site. And I think those are elements when you look at how can you help brands and how can you obviously look to convert that brand, it's super important. Stephanie: Cool. So you just mentioned bringing eyeballs to their site and that piqued my interest in what kind of effective channels are you guys seeing right now to bring new international customers to these brands? Matthew: Yeah. I'll give you one example that I think is a relevant one. And we mentioned because it kind of ties into the overall payment perspective that we mentioned with offering Klarna in Germany and the Nordic region. And Klarna is getting very active in the payment space, which we've just been following very, very closely. But, I think Klarna has done a very nice job of securing some dominance in that European market. So one of the elements that we've done is we've partnered with them. We said, "What can we do from a payment perspective to outreach to consumers?" How can we take our brands and put their products within the Klarna network of consumers that exist out there to let them know that this small little mid sized brand in the US exists? And that is something that we've done to help the brands just as an example, that is super important. And we've seen a lot of value and a lot of return from that where this is something in a market that just typically these brands have not even thought about putting dollars into. Stephanie: That's really interesting. It reminds me of earlier, when I was talking about products and may be opportunities. I mean, you hear that stuff happening, of people going on a vacation to Thailand, or like the guy who created red bull. They're oftentimes overseas, when they see something happening, they're like, "Oh, I see a method of doing this." Or I see something that people really enjoy. And they may sometimes bring it back to the US. But, that's also really interesting, kind of creating in a way an exchange that says, "Hey, here's a bunch of brands that you may not know about." And these overseas brands actually might want to tap into them as well. Matthew: Precisely. And then I think you get into a whole digital marketing effort that the brand really at that point takes a strong hold on, which we even sometimes will help them with. And I think when you look at it as, what are you doing from a marketing perspective? Is it Facebook? Is it Instagram? And how are you taking it from that digital perspective? And a lot of the brands that we market are specially through the times that we've had now, just really focusing hugely on Ecommerce. And how to tap into Ecommerce in two ways, either domestic or international. Because that's the world we're living in at this time which is supposed to really push the brands that had not had a firm strategy in Ecommerce to get there even quicker. Stephanie: Do you see any successful marketing efforts that are going on, that are similar themes among brands where they've shifted their marketing to this effort or another effort? And you see traction happening that maybe wouldn't have happened before COVID? Matthew: I think just more of the adoption of digital marketing efforts and spend into more markets outside of the US, Canada, Australia, and the UK. I think the first thing is really getting that digital marketing effort through whether it be Google, whether it be Instagram, whether it be Facebook. I mean, that is the traditional trend that I see as highly adopted right now across the brands that we work with. Each of them do it very differently. That's for sure. But, all in a unique way that's unique to their brand, where they build a personalized approach to build that trust with the consumer to get them to return. Matthew: So, I think for me, the channels have been pretty consistent in the adoption, like the ones I just mentioned. And then I think it's more about how do I now start focusing on where to do this next? And that is traditionally what I spend a decent amount of time with our brands, just talking about what is your strategy? What's the next market that you're going to push money into, where you can get a return? And here are some that we see as focus markets for your industry, leveraging what we've seen globally across the vast portfolio brands that it is that we work with. Stephanie: Cool. So when thinking about some of the challenges with cross border shipping, I'm thinking about the high shipping rates and maybe local return options. And like you mentioned earlier, duties and taxes, how would you go about stack ranking these priorities for a new Ecommerce shop? And starting to think about this, what are the things that you just need to have as number one priority because if you miss that you're done, whereas the other ones can get figured out along the way? Matthew: Yeah. So for me, I think the biggest aspect is having a full end to end approach. I know we talked about it a bit earlier where the customers from a US perspective are not going to miss a single instance of the way that the customer needs to be communicated to, talk to. And even down to the element of shipping checked out with. But, I think when you look at the backends and prioritization of what's most important internationally, I'd probably put a duty and tax pricing strategy first. I think when you look at the overall elements and barriers that may differ between that of a domestic transaction and that have an international one, duty is not something that many brands are equipped to handle. Matthew: And I think duty is something that brands can most likely understand how to find a solution to calculate. But, then I think the question comes into, how do I calculate duty and tax into every single market throughout the world? But, then most importantly, how, and what do I do through being taxed to make sure that the consumer see it in a way that they will buy. And we mentioned Europe being a really key market for that. If you're in Germany and you want to buy a sweater, you go into your sweater store and you buy that sweater, the experience that you're going to receive is that sweater will be valued at a hundred euros. And you're going to have nothing more to pay outside of that a hundred euro, call it VAT inclusive experience. Matthew: So, if you now try to talk to that German consumer in a way where you're saying, "Hey, check out my website. And I'm going to go ahead and I'm going to break out duty for you. I'm going to break out tax and another line item for you." That consumer's not going to relate to it. So I think if I had to stack rank them all, even though I think pulling the full end to end is necessary to truly make it work from payments to currency, to communication, to customer satisfaction, all of those elements, even down through checkout and translation of checkout. And the ability to recognize city where there is a city, or recognized state where there is a state, or province where there is a province. These are all elements that should be pulled together. But, I would put the duty and price strategy first because I think it is the biggest barrier that brands struggle with. Stephanie: Cool. Yeah. That's great. It's always good to know where to start. But, agree on having an end to end solution. So this is a little bit of a higher level question. But, I know there's been obviously a lot of shakeups when it comes to logistics, like we mentioned early on. Is there any new ways that you hear brands or that you're advising brands to prepare for? If there's another pandemic, if there's something else that happens that maybe interrupts the logistics and supply chain and all that kind of stuff, do you hear anything behind the scenes of like, okay, going forward, we have this new kind of model or strategy to kind of future-proof us a bit more? Matthew: That's a good question. I would say through COVID, what it's taught me and where I spent a lot more, let's just say time conversing than I thought I would have with brands was building contingency plans, when I came to realize that a lot of portfolio brands out there heavily reliant on a single logistics fulfillment center to manage their DTC business. And I think that as COVID hit and volumes doubled because stores closed and then fulfillment centers' staff had to be cut in half, I think that posed for a huge logistics challenge that not many brands retailers or 3PL fulfillment centers were quick to handle. Basically double peak volume in a non peak period, completely unannounced. So I think when you bring that all together, I spent a lot of time with our global brands specifically, who really came to us and said, "Hey, we have some opportunity here. Meaning we've got product in many different markets throughout the world." Matthew: So, if in fact, my facility in New Jersey shutdown tomorrow, obviously Global-e controls the technology elements of it but, the fulfillment piece they still own. So can we point our website for every single transaction, not change a thing for the consumer so that they're not impacted. Let's start pulling that product out of Hong Kong. And the answer is yes. I mean, it's something that we could have easily done and we did do. And I've built more contingency plans than I ever thought I would have had to with our brands to support them should this have happened. But, as I landed my plane, I think the biggest kind of lesson learned here for me, if I'm sitting in on the brand side is to say, what is my contingency plan? Should something like this come up again. And do I have... Or can I turn inventory, or one in another market or another destination or location should my facility in New Jersey get shut down? Stephanie: Yeah, that's great. So are there any disruptions that you see coming maybe to Ecommerce after all this kind of settles down a bit, that you've built contingency plans around? Matthew: I think for me, the acceleration that's going to continue, that started the second COVID hit to continuing to let's just say accelerate as each one of these markets, typically that got hit hard. Six to eight weeks post that time, really, we saw the recovery. And it's almost like the far East started and then Europe happened and then the US was kind of the latest to the table, which was super interesting. But, I think for me, what I'm seeing a lot of now is I speak to all of our brands on a regular basis, is we're seeing a lot more brands now equip their business to be more digitally native. I think the old model of taking product and putting it in inventory, in market next to that consumer and having a very highly driven brick and mortar strategy, has changed. Matthew: And I think that the more personalized brands that are equipped to continue to accelerate their digital strategy, is either doubling down or it's accelerating. And I think that that is to me, the biggest disruptor that I see coming in this landscape, which is the digitally native brands that exist out there that are highly emotional and personalized to their consumer, are really thriving during these times. And I think that we're seeing a lot of the larger, more complex brands that are out there start to really build accelerated strategies to make sure that they keep up. Stephanie: Very cool. So, if I'm a newbie with, I'm building my new Ecommerce company and I'm starting to think about going international, where can I actually look to find out what's happening behind the scenes at some of these brands? Maybe to see how are they operating their logistics or what is their playbook? Is there anywhere or communities or anything like that, that I can learn from other brands or see the behind the scenes of how it's working? Matthew: Yeah. I think typically there's going to be, from an education perspective, we see a lot of brands adopting different cross-border publications, different cross-border strategies through a lot of the conferences that have now become digital and more I would say highly even access. It's in the past, these trade shows and all these things that used to really thrive on required a lot of time, a lot of dedication, a lot of effort, a lot of money to be able to access. Matthew: And I think now what I'm seeing with these all go virtual is you're starting to see a lot more of adoption into these channels which is a lot easier to access. And I think when brands typically come and they're looking in the enabled arena, they learn quite a bit. And I think that is one of the things every time we do talk to a brand it's the first thing that they ask us. How is our peer group performing today? And are you happy with our conversion? And what changes can I make to be able to improve? And I think that's just one of the biggest I'd say value adds from a data and an insight perspective that brands look for. Stephanie: That's great. Yeah. I really liked the idea behind the virtual events are leveling the playing field. So now everyone can get access for either cheaper or free and not have to travel. And that's a really good point and a great place to start. Matthew: Yeah. For sure. Stephanie: Before we move on to the lightning round, is there any topic that you really wanted me to touch on or cover that you were hoping I would bring up? Matthew: No. I think a very wide gamut of everything, which is great. No, I am fine. Stephanie: Okay, cool. Yeah. I do like to go in different areas of the conversation. Matthew: All good. Stephanie: Yup. The lightening round, which is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Matthew, are you ready to go? Matthew: I am as ready as I will be. Stephanie: Alright. What's up next on your reading list? Matthew: Poof! My reading list, I would have to say Peppa Pig is one of the next books because my daughter is begging me to read it to her. So I will be most likely reading that this evening with her. It's between either Peppa pig or Star Wars books. I'm trying to twist one way, I'm not going to say which way. Stephanie: Peppa Pig. Matthew: Exactly. Peppa's super popular right now. Stephanie: Oh, I know. Matthew: That is the next step on my reading list. I have to be very honest. Stephanie: That is probably mine too. I like it. Yup. My son is obsessed with that as well. Alright. What's up next on your Netflix queue? Matthew: Netflix queue? Stephanie: No kid stuff. Matthew: No kid's stuff. Right now, I would say Dexter has been recommended highly to me and seems to get a lot of good ratings. So I think that with COVID now in place, my wife and I will saddle in and watch. And begin to accelerate the number of views that it seems [inaudible 00:42:42]. Stephanie: That's cool. Stephanie: So, if you were to have a podcast, what would it be about and who was your first guest to be? Matthew: I think if I were to have a podcast, I would say my podcast will probably focus something around sustainability. I think that right now with everything that's happening in the world today, and when you look at just the impacts of COVID, and everything else that has happened in the world, I think that you're going to see a lot of brands really adopt sustainable activities and life in general. Even down to our arena, which is call it shipping and how to package materials and stuff. So I think when you look at it, that would be for sure my approach. Who would my first guest be? I think my first guest would probably be my mentor and my father. I would give him the opportunity to be the first guest on my show and at least jump in and be able to share that memory should that podcast take off. And I know that I could say that I started with a family member. Stephanie: Well, I like that. Yeah. We have been actually talking about starting a sustainability podcast. So now I have a perfect host. You're it. Matthew: You let me know. Stephanie: We'll call you up. Alright. One more. What is A, your favorite piece of tech or a new Ecommerce tool that makes you more efficient, or you're having success with? Matthew: What is the most? I would say right now for me there is a tool called Monday that we had used that has brought us a lot of efficiency in the overall arena of project management. So I think managing the level and the amounts of projects at a single time can be at times overwhelming. So within our project group it is a tool that we've adopted that I actually find very insightful because it really gives me a nicer view and a view and a clean view of the overall working structure of what we currently have to deploy and make sure that we continue to support each one of the brands in the queue, whether it be small, whether it be large. And get them out on time to hit their overall deadline to celebrate their Christmas. Stephanie: That is great. I will have to check that out. Well, Matthew, this has been an awesome conversation. We really did go all over the place. And I think our listeners will love it. Where can people find out more about you and Global-e? Matthew: So for me, I would say Global-e obviously hit our website, www.global-e.com. I think you'll learn a lot, right? I think a lot of the statistics, a lot of case studies, a lot of country market reports, a lot of different case studies and things that we've done is going to be there. You can engage us there. And obviously, we are happy to help any brand of any shape and size. So, if this becomes something that you'd love to engage us on, hit the website, submit your information, and we've got a team member in pretty much any part of the world that's going to be able to help you. This is an incredible thing to be part of at such a cool global brand that we are. Stephanie: Amazing. Cool. Well, thanks for effort. Thanks for listening everyone. And we will see you next time.  

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Matthew: Hey Kat, you were just telling me about all the pros and cons of different renewable energies and you just got me thinking we're going to run out of oil in the next couple of decades. There are reports that say we're going to run out of oil in the next twenty years, but I'm guessing that in fifty years or a hundred years we really will run out and we'll need some sort of other energy sources. What do you think's going to happen?Kat: I think it's going to be a combination of all the renewable energy sources we have right now, but there's a lot of development going on especially into solar energy. Solar panels are becoming more and more efficient. There are now solar panels that are flexible and you can actually bend them around objects and the newest ones are actually made by biodegradable materials and they start to be see-through so you can actually apply solar energy harvesting tools to windows and I think that might be the future of renewable energy.Matthew: What about as far as cost performance goes and sustainability?Kat: Well when it comes to sustainability, I think these new forms of solar panels that are made of biodegradable material, I think they are definitely going to be the future.Matthew: It seems like it's a lot of resources. We use a lot of energy every day. Every person uses a lot of energy every day. Do you think that there's going to be a time where all houses are run by renewable energy? Do we have space, the capacity on this planet to actually fit every household with solar panels or wind energies?Kat: Well as far as the resources go as how much solar energy actually hits our planet, we can provide energy for the world a thousand times over. That is not a problem but I think financially it's going to be very difficult. At the situation we are at right now, I think it won't be possible.Matthew: I'm sure that scientists are going to figure out something but I just think solar panels, wind turbines, everything, they actually use plastics and metals and in order to produce those you need oil. Now if you have zero oil, how are you going to produce these renewable energy resource products?Kat: I have been trying to explain that earlier with biodegradable materials. There are actually solar panels being built from renewable materials themselves.Matthew: You're in the industry, you've been working there for a while and I am just wanting to ask you do you think that it's going to be successful? Will there be renewable energy throughout the globe or are people going to be too stubborn?Kat: Well as the situation stands right now, renewable energy will not be able to take care of our energy needs and I truly hope that there will be scientific discoveries in the next fifty years because as it is right now we will not be able to go on as we are just supported by renewable energy.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Matthew: Hey Kat, you were just telling me about all the pros and cons of different renewable energies and you just got me thinking we're going to run out of oil in the next couple of decades. There are reports that say we're going to run out of oil in the next twenty years, but I'm guessing that in fifty years or a hundred years we really will run out and we'll need some sort of other energy sources. What do you think's going to happen?Kat: I think it's going to be a combination of all the renewable energy sources we have right now, but there's a lot of development going on especially into solar energy. Solar panels are becoming more and more efficient. There are now solar panels that are flexible and you can actually bend them around objects and the newest ones are actually made by biodegradable materials and they start to be see-through so you can actually apply solar energy harvesting tools to windows and I think that might be the future of renewable energy.Matthew: What about as far as cost performance goes and sustainability?Kat: Well when it comes to sustainability, I think these new forms of solar panels that are made of biodegradable material, I think they are definitely going to be the future.Matthew: It seems like it's a lot of resources. We use a lot of energy every day. Every person uses a lot of energy every day. Do you think that there's going to be a time where all houses are run by renewable energy? Do we have space, the capacity on this planet to actually fit every household with solar panels or wind energies?Kat: Well as far as the resources go as how much solar energy actually hits our planet, we can provide energy for the world a thousand times over. That is not a problem but I think financially it's going to be very difficult. At the situation we are at right now, I think it won't be possible.Matthew: I'm sure that scientists are going to figure out something but I just think solar panels, wind turbines, everything, they actually use plastics and metals and in order to produce those you need oil. Now if you have zero oil, how are you going to produce these renewable energy resource products?Kat: I have been trying to explain that earlier with biodegradable materials. There are actually solar panels being built from renewable materials themselves.Matthew: You're in the industry, you've been working there for a while and I am just wanting to ask you do you think that it's going to be successful? Will there be renewable energy throughout the globe or are people going to be too stubborn?Kat: Well as the situation stands right now, renewable energy will not be able to take care of our energy needs and I truly hope that there will be scientific discoveries in the next fifty years because as it is right now we will not be able to go on as we are just supported by renewable energy.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Matthew: Hey Kat, you were just telling me about all the pros and cons of different renewable energies and you just got me thinking we're going to run out of oil in the next couple of decades. There are reports that say we're going to run out of oil in the next twenty years, but I'm guessing that in fifty years or a hundred years we really will run out and we'll need some sort of other energy sources. What do you think's going to happen?Kat: I think it's going to be a combination of all the renewable energy sources we have right now, but there's a lot of development going on especially into solar energy. Solar panels are becoming more and more efficient. There are now solar panels that are flexible and you can actually bend them around objects and the newest ones are actually made by biodegradable materials and they start to be see-through so you can actually apply solar energy harvesting tools to windows and I think that might be the future of renewable energy.Matthew: What about as far as cost performance goes and sustainability?Kat: Well when it comes to sustainability, I think these new forms of solar panels that are made of biodegradable material, I think they are definitely going to be the future.Matthew: It seems like it's a lot of resources. We use a lot of energy every day. Every person uses a lot of energy every day. Do you think that there's going to be a time where all houses are run by renewable energy? Do we have space, the capacity on this planet to actually fit every household with solar panels or wind energies?Kat: Well as far as the resources go as how much solar energy actually hits our planet, we can provide energy for the world a thousand times over. That is not a problem but I think financially it's going to be very difficult. At the situation we are at right now, I think it won't be possible.Matthew: I'm sure that scientists are going to figure out something but I just think solar panels, wind turbines, everything, they actually use plastics and metals and in order to produce those you need oil. Now if you have zero oil, how are you going to produce these renewable energy resource products?Kat: I have been trying to explain that earlier with biodegradable materials. There are actually solar panels being built from renewable materials themselves.Matthew: You're in the industry, you've been working there for a while and I am just wanting to ask you do you think that it's going to be successful? Will there be renewable energy throughout the globe or are people going to be too stubborn?Kat: Well as the situation stands right now, renewable energy will not be able to take care of our energy needs and I truly hope that there will be scientific discoveries in the next fifty years because as it is right now we will not be able to go on as we are just supported by renewable energy.

Join us as we explore God's ancient wisdom and apply it to our modern lives. His word is as current and relevant today as it was when he inspired its authors more than two and a half millennia ago. The websites where you can reach us are alittlewalkwithgod.com, richardagee.com, or saf.church. I hope you will join us every week and be sure to let us know how you enjoy the podcast and let others know about it, too. Thanks for listening. Thanks for joining me today for "A Little Walk with God." I'm your host Richard Agee. Do not cross the double line. Do not pass. Do not enter. Do not steal. Do not kill. Do not lie. Do not commit adultery. Do not covet. Do not. Do not. Do not. Have you ever noticed how negative life can sometimes get if we are not careful? We can get trapped in the "do not" whirlpool and feel like everything around us is taboo. Anything we do will bring lightning bolts down on our heads. Growing up, I felt that way. I grew up in an era when the church laid down lots of rules and regulations and said if you don't do any of these things, you'll be alright with God. It's funny how easy it is to get trapped in that mentality. The church still has that problem in many ways. The Pharisees still live in too many of our congregations. They quickly point to the things we shouldn't do and tell us how evil we must be because of our behavior. Jesus never seemed to work that way. It seems to me that he operated from a different point of view. It's not that he didn't understand the laws the Pharisees preached. His Sermon on the Mount proved that and went far beyond what they held as the universal standard. You can hear his explanation of the law in his words recorded by Matthew: "You have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, 'You shall not murder'; and 'whoever murders shall be liable to judgment.' But I say to you that if you are angry with a brother or sister, you will be liable to judgment; and if you insult a brother or sister, you will be liable to the council; and if you say, 'You fool,' you will be liable to the hell of fire. So when you are offering your gift at the altar, if you remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother or sister, and then come and offer your gift. Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are on the way to court with him, or your accuser may hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. Truly I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny. "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to go into hell. "It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' But I say to you that anyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. "Again, you have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, 'You shall not swear falsely, but carry out the vows you have made to the Lord.' But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. Let your word be 'Yes, Yes' or 'No, No'; anything more than this comes from the evil one. (Matthew 5:21-37 NIV) These demands certainly go much further than the Pharisees required, but Jesus puts a spin on what he asks of us that the temple could never do. Remember the two commands he says sums everything up? He puts those in pretty positive terms. Love God and love others. How much more positive can his commands get? He gives us two and says he will send his Spirit to empower us to keep these two commands. He gives us simple rules to follow, then tells us he will provide us with the means to do it — what an extraordinary deal. We could never keep the old rules. Jesus comes and explains the old rules start with thoughts we harbor and mull over until they become more than just ideas. They grow into acts of disobedience. Murder begins with anger. Rape and adultery start with lust. Theft grows from the seed of covetousness. Acts of disobedience don't just happen; they germinate from ideas planted in our minds because of the evil desires within us. We take the God-given emotions and feelings we have and allow Satan to twist them and try to satisfy them in unhealthy disobedient ways to gain temporary pleasure. Those who listen to Jesus' words and follow him have found the promise God gave to the Israelites pretty applicable in their everyday life as well. Moses shared it with them in Deuteronomy 30, and it goes like this: See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity. If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I am commanding you today, by loving the LORD your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess. But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall perish; you shall not live long in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live, loving the LORD your God, obeying him, and holding fast to him; for that means life to you and length of days, so that you may live in the land that the LORD swore to give to your ancestors, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. (Deuteronomy 30:15-20 NIV) I think I'll choose life by following his decrees as simple as they are: love God and love others. It's a good way to live. You can find me at richardagee.com. I also invite you to join us at San Antonio First Church of the Nazarene on West Avenue in San Antonio to hear more Bible-based teaching. You can find out more about my church at SAF.church. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed it, tell a friend. If you didn't, send me an email and let me know how better to reach out to those around you. Until next week, may God richly bless you as you venture into His story each day. Scriptures marked NIV are taken from the NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION (NIV): Scripture taken from THE HOLY BIBLE, NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION ®. Copyright©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.™. Used by permission of Zondervan   

Episode 5 - Podcasters Choice - Anything goes on this edition of What the Lyric. Becky and Matthew choose their favorite bad lyrics from any decade and and genre. One is from 2016 and the other is from 1978. Who will be victorious? Podcasters Choice   [Start 00:00:00]   [Music playing 00:00:06]   Becky: Welcome. To What he Lyric? the podcast that confirms, yeah, that actually made it to radio.   Hello and welcome to What the Lyric? Today and What the Lyric? podcasters choice, we pick apart whatever song we want, it's a free for all. And I have picked something recent.   Matthew: Oh.   Becky: I think it still fits into the me-too movement theme I got going on.   Matthew: I do have to ask first though. Most hated bands…   Becky: These guys.   Matthew: Across the board…   Becky: Yes.   Matthew: Do not tell me yet. But any others like…   Becky: These guys.   Matthew: Was it an easy choice for you to make?   Becky: Yes. It was so… The first song that James Arthur, horrific train wreck of a wedding song that people are using. That one and I think this one are the reason that this podcast exists.   Matthew: Wow.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: There was no other song. That popped into your head?   Becky: Nope. This one. I was like and this is it. There are a couple others. That I thought of because they were funny, but I was like, no, I hate this one immensely. Like. So much, so much   Matthew: Fascinating. See! Mine was less generated by hatred and more confusion. Because I do have… This is again a favourite song of mine.   Becky: Kind of how bizarre confusion?   Matthew: Yes.   Becky: Okay.   Matthew: It is precisely how bizarre. I think everyone has heard the song and everyone has been like the fuck. I am excited to get into that.   Becky: Then I am going to let you go first, because…   Matthew: Really?   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: End on the hatred note but start with confusion.   Becky: I have got a heavy dissertation going on over here.   Matthew: I mean, it is going to take, you no time to get…   Becky: Okay.   Matthew: What this song is. I am trying to think. Let me find. Oh, the songwriter is Jimmy Webb. And you know what…   Becky: Jimmy Webb?   Matthew: You’re going to have to think of more of the 70s. This is coming out of the 70s. I am breaking my millennial streak and also my 2008 streak.   Becky: Does it have to do with pina colada?   Matthew: It does not, although that is a fantastic song and I will not hear a word about those lyrics. I am going to skip the part where the song title is. Well, let's just start at the beginning. Spring was never waiting for us, dear. It ran one-step ahead as we followed in the dance. Blank is melting in the dark. There is your first clue.   Becky: Is this MacArthur Park?   Matthew: Yes, and I…   Becky: And I can't tell you how much I love this song for craziness of it.   Matthew: Right, but precisely right. If you look at the lyrics and this is a fantastic song by Donna Summer.   Becky: Oh, no. It is not, have you read the history of this?   Matthew: I have read a part of it. I don't know all of it. I love the Donna Summer version.   Becky: Oh, that is the classic. That one. Yes. Then Anthony Clark, a comedian, did a version. Well, he did a part about this song and his bit, which always made me giggle.  We used to play this at work, I looked it up, and there was somebody that did a cover of it. That we then spent a good half an hour trying to find so that we could play it. Now I get to look it up. But yes, MacArthur Park, genius.   Matthew: So I already knew off the bat, like, this is going to be low on the yikes scale. because…   Becky: Oh, it is so good.   Matthew: It is a phenomenal song if you have not heard it. But again, the entire thing is about MacArthur Park.   Becky: Cake out in the rain.   Matthew: And supposedly, it is supposed to be about the park because it says MacArthur's park is melting in the dark.   Becky: Yep.   Matthew: All the sweet green icing flowing down, presumably foliage.   Becky: Yep.   Matthew: And then it just goes off the fucking rails and it is like someone left the cake out in the rain. I don't think that I can take it. Cause it took so long to bake it.   Becky: Oh, my God.   Matthew: And I will never have that…   Becky: Here is when I hear the disco [Making noise 00:4:48] noise, yeah.   Matthew: There is so much going on in the song and this person is lamenting it took so long to bake it and I will never have that recipe again. And the series of oh no. Like you cannot describe the depth of emotion captured by that no.   Becky: So good. It is so good. And it's a seven minute long song. Also my favourite, it was Waylon Jennings. Matthew: I did not know Waylon Jennings.   Becky: Including a 1969 Grammy winning version by Waylon Jennings. And you can hear how pissed off he was singing that. Like he's fuckin lyrics don't mean shit. He was probably drunk or stone or whatever.   Matthew: [Inaudible 00:5:30]   Becky: Yeah. Oh, amazing. Waylon Jennings, Grammy won a Grammy.   Matthew: Did not know that. Also, I apologize, it was not in the 70s but it was in the 60s.   Becky: Yeah, 69. Yeah. I had to look it up.   Matthew: General area.   Becky: 68 was when it was first recorded. But you were close. It is a known area for the Donna Summer one.   Matthew: Right.   Becky: My mom had that album by the way.   Matthew: I mean it is phenomenal. And the thing is, there aren't many lyrics here. And I would argue that none of them are terrible. It is just so fucking weird. Like I recall the yellow cotton dress. Okay, that makes sense presumably someone wearing it, foaming like a wave. That makes absolutely no sense. And the ground beneath your knees, even less sense. Like how do you track and create lyrics that make absolute zero sense when you take three sentences together.   Becky: Let's be honest. Late 60s, the whole summer of love coming up soon.   Matthew: Wholesome non-drug usage   Becky: Probably a lot of drugs happening. Why is there a cake reference? What the whole cake reference? Matthew: Like looks at a park and says, you know, I really want to go to the cake.   Becky: It looks like a cake.   Matthew: Everything that I walk around this park screams cake.   Becky: I have never had a park look like a cake. Yeah,   Matthew: I would want to go the park more if it did.   Becky: That's again, that's an acid trip. And I may or may not have seen things that looked unlike that.   Matthew: It’s just like so weird because someone… Interesting fact, though, if you look at the lyrics, the first time you hear about the cake. It says someone left the cake out in the rain. She says it again; someone left the cake out in the rain. A little bit later on the song, the final stanza…   Becky: Does it becomes her cake?   Matthew: It does. It said someone left my cake out in the rain. And I don't think that I can take it because it took so long to bake it. And I'll never have that recipe again.   Becky: I will tell you what. After the whole cake off that we had at work, I understand that layer…     Matthew: There was a cake off?   Becky: We had the cake off. The Halloween theme, Friday the 13th, cake off.   Matthew: Well, we should clarify that this cake off was not for October Friday the 13th. It was a September Friday.   Becky: Yeah it was September, Friday 13th, a Halloween. It was more horror Friday 13th inspired cake off that we did it work. And yeah, I get that. I get that. The It cake I did was rough. I will never do that one again. And I hope I never remember that recipe because it did take so long to bake it.   Matthew: And you will never do that recipe again.   Becky: And I will never do that recipe again. Yeah. So yeah, I get it. I understand where she's coming from on that. I mean, I get it. I am with her.   Matthew: I know. All of them get it. I mean I personally don't understand the analogy of a park to a cake.   Becky: So good.   Matthew: The emotion in it, regardless of how…   Becky: She is good.   Matthew: batshit crazy the lyric are.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: I honestly give this zero yikes. Because it is, weird but I just wanted to bring it because it is a favourite song.   Becky: It is so good.   Matthew: And it make so a little sense.   Becky: Yeah. It makes no sense whatsoever. It is so good. So good. All right. So mine.   Matthew: Who do you hate? Oh, it might be recent. I might get it.   Becky: It is from 2016.   Matthew: Ariana Grande?   Becky: Oh, no, it’s a group and then another singer. These guys are known also for being producers, but they do all these collabs, as the kids say. And this was the first time that I heard them. At first I was like, well, this is kind of bland. Then I start listening to lyrics and I wanted to punch them in the face.   Matthew: I am intrigued.   Becky: Okay let me read some of the lyrics. Here is how it starts. Hey, I was doing just fine before I met you. I drink too much and that is an issue, but I am okay. No. hey! tell your friends it was nice to meet them, but I hope I never see them again. I know it breaks your heart. Moved to the city in a broke down car. In 4 years, no calls. Now you are looking pretty in a hotel bar. And I can't stop. No, I can't stop.   Matthew: I remember vaguely the song and I would not remember it if I had not heard you. Months ago talking about how much you hate this band.   Becky: Eviscerate this band. Yeah.   Matthew: I forget what the song is called, but is it The Chainsmokers?   Becky: Oh, it is.   Both Speakers: And Halsey.   Matthew: That is it.   Becky: I necessarily have issue with Halsey. I have a lot of issues with the fucking Chainsmokers. First off, let us just start with. I drink too much and that is an issue, but I am okay. No, clearly you are not. This is what AA is.   Matthew: I have issue but I am okay.   Becky: I'm okay. No, it is intervention time. Then like he sees you looking pretty good in a hotel bar? This is the dude that broke up with you because you got fat. Then comes back and is like, whoa! Somebody lost some weight. And wants to get back in on it. No, and then it goes in to baby pull me closer in the backseat of your rover that I know you can't afford. Come on. You don't know that. You have been away from her for four years. She could be doing well because  she did not have that frickin rock of an ex hanging around her.   Matthew: Dragging her down.   Becky: Yeah. Pull the sheets right off the corner of the mattress you stole from the roommate back in Boulder. There are several issues here. First off, bed bugs.   Matthew: Absolutely riddled with them. There is no way she is not.   Becky: God knows what else is on that mattress. Or has been on that mattress. There is not enough steam cleaning. or defogging or what you do with a mattress to kill anything that is on it. You should have just left that out in the backyard or on the side of the street somehow. No, gross. So gross. I can’t even.  How is that a lyric in a song way?   Matthew: Wait, pause because technically wait. Not only bed bugs would be a concern, but she…   Both Speakers: Stole it.   Becky: From her roommate.   Matthew: Yeah, at what point…   Becky: We don’t know.   Matthew: Did she just decide to up and leave while the like roommate was at work. Oh, shit this is a nice like Caspar mattress. Caspar if you would like to sponsor this podcast.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: Please contact us.   Becky: I picture like the tablecloth trick. Roommate sleeping whip the mattress out from underneath there. Drops 0n the box spring and runs.   Matthew: Done, love it.   Becky: That is what I am picturing. Gross, cooties. You don't know what that roommate's done on that mattress. What if that roommate blacked out, drunk, peed on the bed or…   Matthew: Worse?   Becky: Worse or, you know, maybe…   Matthew: There are so many imagination.   Becky: There is so, many fluids that could be on that bed.   Matthew: And likely are.   Becky: Again, not enough steam cleaning or de-fogging or whatever you could do.                                       Matthew: When they say get a new mattress every eight years, they mean get a new mattress from the factory, not a new mattress to you. So don't steal your roommates mattress.   Becky: Yeah and no amount of mattress bag or pads could get me further away. I am like the princess and the pea. I would be like, I still now that there is pee there.   Matthew: Wow! Again, well done.   Becky: Yeah. Then he just like we ain’t ever getting older. You are, you are, you are, you turd, you are, you are. I can't stand these guys. Then now all of a sudden he is like, you look as good as the day I met you. I forgot just why I left you. Cause you are a turd. I think we have established you are an alcoholic turd. Because you have a drinking problem, but you are okay with it. The first reason to leave the guy, I don't know why you even went back. I mean, granted, maybe your whole revenge plot was the mattress did have some sort of cooties and you put him down there first was like, I will be right back.   Matthew: Good lie. Becky: While all the bugs jump on him.   Matthew: Abandon ship.   Becky: Yeah, I mean, I can't. I would not. Then he says, stay and play that Blink-182 song, right there   Matthew: Yeah, which is it...That one?   Becky: I’m out.  Blink-182. Are we that old?   Matthew: Wait, which one is it?   Becky: Blink-182. There is so many. Oh, it's the one that they beat to death in Tucson. Did they beat the Blink-182 to death?   Matthew: Blink-182 death.   Becky: Then it just goes the course. I know I broke your heart. I know it breaks your heart. Moved to a city in a broke down car and four years later didn't call. I don't know why? Why?   Matthew: This go back into your craw.   Becky: I was like, what the…This is bull shit. You don't know I can't afford a Rover. I am paying for your sad ass. And not four years later I've been able to save up for a Rover and then bite the tattoo on your shoulder. No, you ain’t touching me.   Matthew: Gross don't?   Becky: Get your get your shit away. Get your…   Matthew: Bed bug infested.   Becky: You need to get back to the hole. Just get on track. Now I am looking pretty in a hotel bar.   Matthew: Wait, he is saying that?   Becky: That is her singing it now.   Matthew: Oh, yikes.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: No.   Becky: I mean. I am sure you are Halsey. You are a good looking gal. But…And I and I can't stop. No, I can't stop. Yeah. It is called self-control.   Matthew: Yeah. No, I have…   Becky: I can’t stand this, I can’t… everything.   Matthew: What I love about this. Going back to the we ain't ever getting older because I'm like, wait. You already admitting you have a drinking problem. So like, that is for sure. Aging your liver.   Becky: You are going to get aged quick.   Matthew: But your band is The Chainsmokers. Yeah, like all are 100 percent getting old just because you are going to die young. Does that mean you are not getting older?   Becky: Yeah. Then they have a collab with Coldplay that I just hear everywhere. Is that I want something just like this. Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo. I can't.   Mathew: Oh, I never heard it.   Becky: Oh, you have.   Matthew: Have I?   Becky: You have. Yeah, it is fucking everywhere. That one, they have another one, and I was like, oh, this sounds like…oh it is The Chainsmokers. This feeling maybe. I don't know. I can't. They just need to stop. They need to really take stock of what, the hell they are doing. I am sure they are great producers. I don't give a shit. Just don't sing anymore. Don't write any more lyrics. Just produce the music. Be happy with making that money. You are good looking guys. You get whatever you want.   Matthew: You will be fine.   Becky: You will be giving the ladies. It is not a big deal. Just stop singing and putting out this piece of crap.   Matthew: Now the question I have. Is, how many yikes you assigning it? One is the worst. Are you going for one?   Becky: There are a big fat one for me, across the board. You could go, hey, The Chainsmokers. Nope. one. I don't like it. I don't like it. They could do something with Pavarotti. And I'm still like, no. They could bring Elvis back from the dead. And I will still say, no. Beatles back from the dead. Nope, nothing. There is nothing. Yeah.   Matthew: What, if they cured cancer?   Becky: Maybe   Matthew: That is hard maybe.   Becky: Maybe if they cured cancer and never recorded again…   Matthew: Deal.   Becky: I would pump it up to two. But they won't stop producing crap.   Matthew: No.   Becky: It is in their blood now. They have had like two or three hits. So now they're like, yeah,   Matthew: We are band.   Becky: We fucking rock. Everything we touch turns to gold bitches. Yeah. No.   Matthew: Yikes.   Becky: I hate them. I hate them. Oh, my God, they make my skin crawl. I hate so much.   Matthew: It is important to have that. I was like, okay, this is good, you know. James Arthur,   Becky: James Arthur and The Chainsmokers.   Matthew: Wait for that collab. When that does inevitably happen. We will have to talk about it here.   Becky: Oh, it is going to happen. You know it is going to happen.   Matthew: If it has not already.   Becky: The sweet, sweet dulcet tones of James Arthur followed by the. I don't even know what the producing style of the…   Matthew: The Chainsmokers   Becky: The Chainsmokers.   Matthew: We know that there singing style will be slurred because both of them have drinking problem.   Becky: Yes. It is all about alcohol, and I am pretty sure it'll take forever because I have to keep stopping for a smoke break, run out side. Then come back in and be like, all right, let's do it.   Matthew: Ah, the wheeze.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: Just wait for the smokers hack.   Becky: Before, okay. Let me just clears out. [Making coughing hacking sound 00:19:20] All right I am ready, and then…   Both speakers:  That is the dulcet of James Arthur.   Becky: Yeah. Oh, yeah.   Matthew: Wow! Cause there, you know. Puff, huffing and puffing.   Becky: I am trying to think. They don't even really singing that song. It is like doing just fine before. Like mumbling of, yeah.   Matthew: [Inaudible 00:19:40-45]   Becky: Yeah. It is like a teenager who's doesn't want to talk to his parents. That is what it is like. That is how they sound to me.   Matthew: They just get close to the microphone [Inaudible 00:19:57].   Becky: I am pretty sure that's how they do it.   Matthew: You know the mumblers.   Becky: Yeah. Oh my God. Oh…   Matthew: Mumble core.   Becky: I dislike…the mattress you stole from…What is wrong with you people? Have we not heard of hygiene? I mean.   Matthew: They, no.   Becky: Bleach? anything. Please, dear God.   Matthew: You have the money. Please buy a new mattress.   Becky: Yeah. You could buy 50 or 40, however.   Matthew: I think we should make several pleas here. The first is please send us pizza or cake whenever you so desire. Check out the Website.   Becky: Oh, yes.   Matthew: whatthelyrics.com.   Becky: Nice one. I am glad you pulled that one because I didn’t. I was not even thinking about it.   Matthew: And specifically, we are going to make a plead directly to The Chainsmokers to use their money, put their money to good use and buy a new mattress. You deserve it, Casper mattresses.   Becky: Just buy a new mattress every year because if this song is any indication of what you are going through and doing. Maybe even every six months.   Matthew: Wait; was the name of the song? Remind me.   Becky: Closer.   Matthew: That is a closer. Well, that will be.   Becky: I don't want to get closer. I don't want to get closer to that mattress. I don't want to get closer to them. I don't want to get closer to anything in this song. I don't understand. Why are we just glossing over your alcoholism? That is like a one-liner. Like yeah! I know I drink too much. It is all right.   Matthew: No, it is not a problem.   Becky: I am a throw up on that mattress you stole from your roommate. Then I am going to pass out, blackout and pee on it like…   Matthew: You are going to love it.   Becky: Oh and why do you want to take that back?   Matthew: No, instead of closer. That was will be our closer.   Becky: Oh, I like it.   Matthew: Well, what will we be talking about next time?   Becky: Next time. Its party anthems.   Matthew: What kind of party anthems?   Becky: Yeah, it’s kinda open… children's birthday party. So party anthems I took to mean a song that everyone sings along to has their own kind of version of it when they sing. Or is like the go to karaoke one or like the end of the night drunky song that everybody sings drunk to. That is what I kind of took as the party anthem.   Matthew: I have mine. I don't know if it's from 2008, but it's probably close.   Becky: Minds of course, from the 80s. This I believe, is the first one that does not fit into the me too movement theme. I finally found one.   Matthew: We’re doing good work.   Becky: Maybe I can work it there. I got to look at the lyrics again, but I'm pretty sure it's not really, me too. It is more stalker-y.   Matthew: Okay, in the family of but not directly under the category.   Becky: Yeah, there is no overt booty references.   Matthew: Mambo number 5?   Becky: There is no donkey… ass   Matthew: With a monkey   Becky: Yeah, no big old butt kind of thing.   Matthew: Not yet.   Becky: Not yet. Although I don't know. It would be hilarious to have this. Yes next time. Party anthems. I cannot wait for mine.   Matthew: Well, I am excited and we will talk ‘atcha then?   Becky: Yes. Talk to you soon.   [Music playing]   [End 00:24:00]

In this episode Becky and Matthew delve deep into the late 80s and the early 2000s hip hop.  Will it be a hip hop battle to end all battles?   What the Lyric? Rap/Hip-Hop   [Start 00:00:00]   Music: [00:00:07]   Becky: Welcome to What the Lyric?, the podcast that confirms. Yeah, that actually made it to radio.   Welcome to What the Lyric? Today we are talking about hip-hop, the rap. I don't know what else I'd call it.   Matthew: The rap.   Becky: The rap.   Matthew: I mean you are talking to the two white people in the room talking about hip-hop. That is what this episode is.   Becky: I know. Oh, this is going to go down horribly. Although I do love my 80s, rap and I love the old Run DMC stuff before Aerosmith. Who else is in there? I am trying to think. A tribe called Quest. Although I cannot remember if they were 80s or not. It all runs together now for me. Then, of course, Public Enemy. I don't think that was 80s. Maybe they were 80s. Oh, my God. Yeah. Oh, there is a lot in there. 3rd Bass. That is right; I pull out 3rd Base, which you will never know. But the one guy in 3rd Base, a white guy is now like a baseball historian at Cooperstown, if I remember correctly.   Matthew: That is a turn career.   Becky: Yeah, Pete Nice. Was it Pete Nice? Oh I don't think it was Pete Nice. I cannot remember who it was now.   Matthew: Was it was not Pete Townsend? Becky: No, now I am going to have to look it up. Who were the members of 3rd Base? Yeah, so that is where I am coming from.   Matthew: Interesting. Mine, you know. Like, that is all I really need to say. We actually had a very interesting discussion at the end of the last episode talking about where does R&B begin versus hip-hop specifically.   Becky: Yes.   Matthew: I approach hip-hop from the more R&B side. So I am thinking Beyoncé, Lemonade.   Becky: All right, okay.   Matthew: To an extent, Drake, although he is not my favourite.   Becky: Oh God!   Matthew: And then smaller artists, particularly from the HBO show Insecure, has some very good hip-hop…   Becky: See I don’t know that.   Matthew: References. TT the artists. What is the name of the song? Is featured in it. She is great. Now I will have to introduce you to it. Then, of course, where would we be? But two people, two white people talking about hip hop. Also, listen to the entirety of Hamilton and needed to get said. There it is. It has been said we can now glaze past it.   Becky: I only know the Alexander Hamilton [Making sound 00:2:56]. I don't know anything else.   Matthew: That is all you need to know. That is what the musical is.   Becky: Yeah, I. Oh, man. I think I was right with Pete Nice. What did I say? Oh, my God.   Matthew: You did say Pete Nice.   Becky: Yeah. There is MC Serch and Pete Nice, but I feel like. Yeah. Pete Nice. Baseball historian, I had it right the first time.   Matthew: Well, with a band name like 3rd Base, you kind of have to.   Becky: They had a song called The Cactus.   Matthew: Why?   Becky: I can't even remember. I just remember The Cactus. I am sure I still have that CD somewhere. But yeah, The Cactus.   Matthew: I love.   Becky: I cannot even remember. It is all gone. It is so bad; they did have a big hit. What was their big hit?   Matthew: Was, it baseball related?   Becky: No, surprisingly. You would think with a name like 3rd Base. Pop goes the weasel.   Matthew: Oh.   Becky: From 1991. I remember that. That sounds like a hit. I did not have that one. I had the Cactus album and that was eighty-nine derelicts of dialect, which had the pop, goes the weasel. Yep, that was ninety-one. That was when I graduated high school.   Matthew: I won't say where I was at the time.   Becky: And a hoodie [Laughing], moving on. All right. I am going to let you go first this time.   Matthew: All right. So like I said, my primary job on this podcast is to serve as millennial ambassador.   Becky: And I am the only.   Matthew: There is a generation, obviously listen to this podcast. Who is waiting for your songs, too?   Becky: I am sure.   Matthew: But I want to bring them up to speed in case they hopefully missed it.   Becky: I would also like to point out I am representing old school with my older school tortoiseshell old schools.   Matthew: Wow! Well done. Actually…   Becky: I did not even think about that. I just put them on this morning.   Matthew: I should as a side note, give Becky more credit for being much more fashionable than me. I mean, because I have just got like these shitty Nike…   Becky: No   Matthew: Running shoes and blue jeans.   Becky: It is Old Navy jeans and Adidas. It is not really fashionable, it is just comfortable.   Matthew: As we should.   Becky: As my vsco [Inaudible 00:5:26] said.   Matthew: Oh, I forgot the vsco queen of this podcast.   Becky: Yeah, the old lady vsco queen.   Matthew: So really, this song I remember driving to high school, I think senior year of high school.   Becky: Okay.   Matthew: This song is being played a lot.   Becky: 2008?   Matthew: 2008   Becky: Okay.   Matthew: Right. I was graduating high school that year.   Becky: Lord, have mercy, okay.   Matthew: And more specifically, I am trying to think. Where do I go with this? I am not really sure, but let me just say…   Becky: 2008 [Inaudible 00:6:09]   Matthew: There you go. Very fluent in Spanish.   Becky: Is he like Pitbull?   Matthew: Oh, nailed it, yes. And it was his first song. Because I was going to say, like oh! He is like…   Becky: The one with Robin Thicke?   Matthew: I did not know there was one, but that really disturbs me.   Becky: Where he sing I don't like it. I love it, love it, love it. Oh, is that Pitbull? That is Pitbull.   Matthew: Probably.   Becky: yeah, oh boy.   Matthew: This is his first one. He speaks a lot of Spanish and again, since I am incredibly white. Even though I grew up in Texas, I know no Spanish. Because I took French in high school for whatever…   Becky: Yeah, I took German.   Matthew: For whatever godforsaken reason. But my favourite my favourite thing about Pitbull is the fact that he can't decide on a nickname. He is either Mr. 305 or he is Mr. Worldwide, which therefore implies that the entirety of the 305 area code is actually the world to either him, which could either be very sweet, or the fact that he doesn't travel a lot.   Becky: 305, Miami, I am assuming?   Matthew: Yes.   Becky: Yeah, okay.   Mathew: So that is where he is from. I am assuming he is Cuban. No offense to Mr. Pitbull, if he eventually listens to this podcast…   Becky: I think he is.   Matthew: Which I highly doubt.   Becky: I am sure he is a big fan.   Matthew: Obviously.   Becky: Can't wait to get fan mail about that one.   Matthew: So really, the song that he chose was I know you want me. Becky: Mm hmm.   Matthew: Which makes several assumptions that I think Pitbull has not quite figured out. I am not sure there, is a huge audience who is craving his music, but nonetheless, he still posits that people do want him. Again, most of it is in Spanish. So I will skip those parts because quite simply, I just did not take the time to Google translate any of it. The bad lyrics for it. I give it minus one point for repetitiveness…   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: Because some of it is simply. I know you want me, want me. Then it is like…   Becky: oh, God, I don't remember.   Matthew: You know I want you, want you. Then it just repeats multiple times. I will not go into that. There is a lot of just, word association.   Becky: Yeah, okay.   Matthew: I know that Good hip-hop. You can do word association. And it makes sense and it flows. Pitbull just being like, oh, shit. Got it right. Like you can you can hear him like a train barrels towards the end.   Becky: Those are make the favourite raps. Post Malone, I hate that guy so much for this. At one point, he says something. He is trying to rhyme something. Instead of saying Luck Roy, he is says Lecroy, so he can rhyme it. First off, I hate that damn drink anyways. Second, you cannot even pronounce it right. Why? Just so you can fit in your little rap. Mr. Syracuse? I don't think so.   Matthew: Oh, he is from Syracuse.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: Congrats. Another New York native like Becky.   Becky: Yeah. I did not get all the face tats, though.   Matthew: Not yet, you are young.   Becky: Working on it. I am working on it.   Matthew: Pitbull goes on to say, you know, stick to the clock on my way to the top, which I am like, okay. He is being timed. One assumes.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: I do not think that is necessarily a bad lyric. Then there is just a weird word association, so like Pit got it locked from Bruce to the lock her. The bruise, b-r-e-w-u-s according to the lyrics, I find that amusing. RIP so rest in peace…   Becky: Yeah.     Matthew: Huh, Big and PAC. P-A-C, I don't know if that's like the…   Becky: Biggie and Pac? Biggie and 2Pac   Matthew: That is what I am assuming, right?   Becky: Yeah, okay.   Matthew: So it is like ok, he is doing due diligence as one does in hip-hop by making references.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: So far he has not necessarily run afoul of anything, he said premise.   Becky: He is also hitting both coasts like he's trying and play Sweden…   Matthew: Right?   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: Even though he very clearly raps the east coast by being like Mr 305 checking in for the Remix.   Becky: Yet it is also Miami like it's not New York vs LA…   Matthew: You can calm down.     Becky: Hip-hop, yeah.   Matthew: He extends his condolences to both of them, and then disses himself.   Becky: Many years kind of late too, by the way.   Matthew: This is where I started to get concerned. As far as bad lyrics and also his self-esteem, because he immediately feels like R.I.P too Bigg and Pac. That he is not, but damn, he is hot. So what that implies to me is, Pitbull is actually saying that, oh, actually I'm not nearly as talented as Bigg and Pac, which I was like…   Becky: Truth,   Matthew: Which is just truth.   Becky: Truth.   Matthew: I do appreciate it. Then he has to saddle himself like, you know, I can never be them, but I am attractive. And that's still a stretch.   Becky: Yeah, I would say to 2Pac is probably better looking than him in my opinion.   Matthew: I would agree.  I am inclined to agree. Pitbull, He has a face like a pit bull.   Becky: He does, there is a reason he have that name. Yeah.   Matthew: I don't know what it is, but I can assume it's his face.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: And so continuing. What is even weirder is that he is like the label flop. So he's already saying that like whatever label he's on is going to flop presumably because of his songs like that doesn't inspire confidence. So it's like again, a diss at the start. Then he says, but Pitt won't stop. Label flop, but Pitt won't stop.   Becky: Wait a minute. Maybe what he is saying is, you know, I like when you would be like, oh, my God, I am totally failing this test. Then you nail it like he's psyching himself out, like I am the shittiest rapper. Then boom! Platinum.   Matthew: Huge fame. I don’t know if this ever went platinum. I would be surprised, but also not surprised if that were to happen.   Becky: You never know.   Matthew: But he is always starting with the dislike that he is not. But damn, he's hot. Label flop. But Pitt won't stop. And I'm like, ok. Then very left turn. Got her in the car playing with his como. And that's where he answered Spanish. Oh, wait, why are you having sex in a car? I am not surprised.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: But he was like, I am going to be an amazing rapper. Oh no, getting my dick sucked in a car.   Becky: Well, all right. I mean, you know, to each his own is all I am saying. You granted it back in the day…   Matthew: So, we should let Pitbull have his own.   Becky: Whatever makes him happy? You do you. Live your best life.   Matthew: Right. And this is where the associations continue because right. In two lines, He has gone from being like, I am sorry that Biggie died…   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: And Tupac died. The label is going to flop. I mean, but I am going to keep making music. I am receiving oral in our car. Then he says, watch him make a movie like Alfred Hitchcock. Ha! Enjoy me.   Becky: Has, he made a movie?   Matthew: No, not at all. None. I don't think he's directed his own music videos. If he has, I can tell you the music one for this one. Looks like it was directed by…   Becky: I might know somebody who has done a video with him.   Matthew: Did they direct it?   Becky: No. He is a cinematographer. Curious at least he picked a good director.   Matthew: Right.   Becky: Alfred Hitchcock.   Matthew: He was not choosing…   Becky: One of my favourites.   Matthew: I am trying to think of who would be a bad director.   Becky: Well, the guy did. Oh, God. What is that movie that? James Franco did a movie about him that won an award, but he did not.   Matthew: Tommy Wiseau.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: Watch him make a movie like Tommy Wiseau. Huh! Enjoy me.   Becky: See, that works a little better for this.   Matthew: It actually does.   Becky: If he could have just let us edit his words, he would be spot on. Yeah, either him. I am trying to think Ed Wood.   Matthew: What does he do? I don't think I know, Ed Wood.   Becky: Oh, you have to go back and watch an Ed Wood movie. I think one of my favourites, which is called Jail Bait. And there's this weird 1950s. There is this weird, depending on which version you get. There is this weird kind of like guitar piece in it that keeps showing up randomly throughout and you think it is there to like build tension, but you are like, [Inaudible 00:15:01] just threw that guitar riff in there for no real reason. It is like you have flamenco, kind of. I don't know how to describe it, but it's hilarious. Johnny Depp actually starred is him in a movie called Ed Wood. He was pretty epic at making like B movies where you're like, what! is going on here? Plan 9 from outer space, I think is him…   Matthew: Oh! Okay,   Becky: Yes. Jailbait is probably my favourite.   Matthew: I will have to check these out. Thank you for the movie recommendation. The last time I recommended Repo the Genetic Opera.   Becky: Yeah. Plan 9 from outer space…   Matthew: Jailbait first.   Becky: Jailbait though is my favourite and I used to own it on VHS. That is how old I am.   Matthew: Oh yeah. If it makes you feel any better. I was acquainted with VHS.   Becky: Yeah. I am the VHS. Oh God! That movie was so good. So bad, it was so good. I am sure it is him, Jailbait. It has to be. He has done so many, and I think he did with like Vampira. Yeah, that is Ed Wood. Oh, so many. Oh, yeah. Glen or Glenda? Also a classic. Mm hmm. Genius of a man.   Matthew: That is incredible.   Becky: I wish there were more like him out there that could do these kinds of movies.   Matthew: We can only aspire too. But I mean, also Pittbull could aspire to, be the Ed Wood but currently he wants to be Alfred Hitchcock.   Becky: That is not happening.   Matthew: But when I was really thinking about this, I was like, what? You know, in my limited experience with hip-hop, what lyric stand out to me is like the worst things I can think of.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: And this one stood out in my brain, has not left my brain for the past eleven years, and presumably will not be my brain until I die. It is this line.   Becky: Okay.   Matthew: Because remember, the rest is repetitive. Mommy got an ass like a donkey with a monkey look like King Kong. Welcome to the crib. Now, granted, also, I do need to…   Becky: Okay.   Matthew: Make a very specific point that when I say mommy, it sounds like I am talking about…   Becky: Mom. Matthew: Right.   Becky: And actual Mom   Matthew: Its spell M-A-M-I. It is Spanish. I am incredibly white. I cannot make this work. I need you to know...   Becky: Mommy and Pappy.   Matthew: Yes. Exactly. Like he is clearly talking about an attractive young woman.   Becky: A lady friend.   Matthew: Quite honestly, does not make me feel any better about it because he's dancing. She has an ass like a donkey, which I do. I will give him credit for the association…   Becky: That is good little…   Matthew: Word played.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: It is like saying like, oh, hurray. I can do this wordplay. But I forgot that this is implying that I would fuck a duck.   Becky: Yeah. Yeah, like a donkey got a sweet booty. Yeah…ewe.   Matthew: An ass like a donkey and he says monkey. Like a donkey with a monkey. Then why with a monkey? She specifically has an ass like a donkey that has a monkey. Look like King Kong. Now, does he mean the woman? Does he mean the monkey? Or does he mean the donkey?   Becky: It is all very offensive. However, you look at it, every part of that is offensive. Like there is not a moment where you go, well, that is very flattering. I appreciate that. No, nothing like. Where does the monkey come in? That is just to make the rhyme, clearly.   Matthew: Now, would you be flattered if a man would actually say you have an ass like a donkey.   Becky: That is like Sisqo she got dumps like a truck, truck, truck.   Mathew: Okay I did forget about that.   Becky: The Thong Song, and then there is Wreckx-n-Effect with the rump shaker. There is another one, actually. This is a perfect lead in mine.   Matthew: Done, I was like, honestly, that I just want to say for the audience at home, that lyric haunts me to this day and I truly wish that it haunts you as well.   Becky: Great. Okay and mine is from 1989.   Matthew: That was prior to around the time of conception but definitely not [Inaudible 00:19:48].   Becky: Okay. So mine is from 1989 and I remember this song so I'm going to read the first part of it. I was at the mall sipping on a milkshake, playing the wall, taking a break. Admiring the girls with the bamboo earrings, baby hair and bodies built to swing. That is when I seen her. Name was Tina. Grace and Poise, kind of like a ballerina. I say how you doing? My name's big L don't ask me how I'm living because yo, I'm live in swell. But then again, I am living kind of foul because my girl don't know that I'm out on the prowl. To make a long story short, I got the digits.  Calls, one that drives me crazy. Calls her on my car phone and paid her a visit. I was spanking her, thanking her, chewing her, and doing her. Land like a king and sat on sheets of Satin. Well, that is what time it is. You know what is happening? She had a big old booty, and I am doing my duty.   I mean, yo, I admit that girls cutie. But Tina was erratic, Earl is my witness with the kind of legs that put stockings out of business. I went home. I kissed my girl on the cheek, but in the back of my mind was this big butt freak. I fat my girl down. I could not hold it in, and that is when I said to her, with a devilish grin. Tina got a big old butt. Matthew: That was a perfect Segway. Becky: Yeah, then it goes on. I know I told you I would be true. But Tina got a big old butt, so I'm leaving you. So this is LL Cool J, big old butt.   Matthew: This is LL Cool J?   Becky: Oh, my God. He has another one called Backseat in my Jeep, which is another one of my favourites, one of the lyrics said. It is like backseat of my Jeep. We swing an ep. So you could not say episode, he had to shorten it down to ep to sound hard.   Matthew: Wow   Becky: But yes, the whole song has him bouncing around from girl to girl with big old butts. So then, he moves on to I believe it is Brenda. Who he met at high school. Mm hmm.   Matthew: That's, you know, usually where this occurs.   Becky: Then he goes to Red Lop, so he started at the mall. Then he goes to the high school.   Matthew: Have we confirmed that he too is in high school?   Becky: Oh, I don't think so at this time.   Matthew: Oh, yikes.   Becky: Yeah. Mm hmm. He went to the high school about three o'clock. So clearly, he is not in high school.   Matthew: Oh.   Becky: To try and catch cutie. Riding my jock.   Matthew: That is a popular line.   Becky: I have not heard that a long time. She had that kind of booty that I always remember. I would say to my man, stop the jeep. She is only 17, but yo, don't sleep. So again, I have a theme for this series, apparently.   Matthew: You sure you do. I like 2008. You like rape song.   Becky: Yeah. I don't know what it is. Then he put the big booty on a bearskin rug.   Matthew: Wow! Why the fuck does, he have a bearskin rug?   Becky: He got satin sheets and a bearskin rug. LL…   Matthew: He just fuck so much.   Becky: He is on point as far as like 70s porn house.   Matthew: Easily. He call Hugh Hefner and I was like, can I fuck as many girls in your house as possible?   Becky: Yeah. I like I scope the booty like a big game hunter. I said to the girl, you, you look tired. Let's go get some rest. Relax by the fire.   Matthew: Oh, okay. Naked.   Becky: Apparently.   Matthew: But that is a terrible way to lay naked, because let us all remember that fires only come in one direction.   Becky: Yes, so half of you is sweating to death. The other half is freezing and you are on a bearskin rug. So now, half of you is sweating with bear fur stuck to you. Everything about this is wrong.   Matthew: That is so erotic. Becky: Then if you move to like the satin she. She just like right off. like nothing about it is good. Yeah. Oh, he also grabbed a pack of bullets and pulled out the steel. So how about that?   Matthew: The steel?   Becky? How about that for slang for putting a condom on?   Matthew: Okay.   Becky: Yep. Then he gets back, and he goes to Tina. I am going with Brenda now because she got a big old butt. So he's leaving you.   Matthew: Wow!   Becky: Later on, he goes to Red Lobster. For shrimp and steak, as it says, it must be the next day because we are at lunchtime now, because this is around the time when the waitresses are on lunch break. You know, he is hanging his bro, then he meet Lisa, one thing leads to another. And he's got to tell Brenda.   Matthew: It is time for her to go.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: Wait! What is the name of the song? Remind me.   Becky: Big ole butt.   Matthew: Big ole butt. It is just butt?   Becky: This was on the radio.   Matthew: Constantly.   Becky: Yeah, I remember this. Yeah.   Matthew: This is…   Becky: Big ole butt.   Matthew: Fascinating.   Becky: Hmmm. LL Cool J 1989.   Matthew: Assinating that is what I am going to call it.   Becky: It is assinating. I mean, he just. You know, I out and about. Maybe pulled in the parking lot, and parked his car. Somebody shouted out. I don't care who you are, I pay no attention. I walk inside because Brian had a nine and he was chilling in the ride. I got to be honest, I don't know what the hell that means.   Matthew: That is so weird.   Becky: Shrimp and Steak was not the only thing cooking.   Matthew: What?   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: Although this does make you feel better that like consistently hip-hop artist, do you go to Red Lobster after they are fucking because, you know, Beyoncé is like… like,   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: Fuck him so good. I don’t remember.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: Basically the sex so good that she's like, I take his ass to Red Lobster and now turns out LL Cool J originated the like lets go to lobster.   Becky: I feel Beyoncé is lying on this one.   Matthew: She would never…   Becky: Jay Z…..Red Lobster.   Matthew: There are multiple things like really…   Becky: For reals, yeah. But this girl Lisa was like, you got a girl and it don't matter. You are looking tastier than a piping hot pizza. Then he of course, I don't know why this was something he thought the ladies are going to enjoy this line. When she walked out the door, I threw my tongue down her throat.   Matthew: Ewe.   Becky: No.   Matthew: Also, that is a terrible verb for it. Like I threw it down her throat.   Becky: I don't want you touching my tonsils. The doctor is the old one who should be touching my tonsils and my uvula, and I love that term uvula.   Matthew: Even there on him fucking ice when they touch your tonsils.   Becky: Yeah. Dentist if necessary. No. And of course, this is the 80s. Late 80s after he has done his business. He grabs his pants and put on his kangol.   Matthew: Wow. It is the 80s.   Becky: Yeah. Then who did I see? Oh, yow it was Brenda. Yow, she worked at Red Lobster but I did not remember.   Matthew: Wow!   Becky: Lisa got a big ole butt. Matthew: Wait, he bring Lisa to Red Lobster.   Becky: He picked up Lisa a Red Lobster, but forgot Brenda also worked at Red Lobster.   Mathew: LL Cool J, what the hell are you doing.   Becky: I mean you just getting yourself into a train wreck. Yeah-Big Ole Butt.   Matthew: Wow! That is…   Becky: I can still hear the whole thing in my head. Brenda got a big ole butt it is awesome. I will listen to it tomorrow at work.   Matthew: See what I appreciate. I feel like with very few exceptions, most of the songs that we choose are so lovable.   Becky: Oh, I am still going to listen to him.   Matthew: In spite of the bad lyrics.   Becky: Except for two. The first one we did. Which is that James Arthur piece of trash.   Matthew: Yes.   Becky: That one, never. Like I will listen to it because I am being forced to. Because somebody wants to see me go what the fuck is? Does anyone not listen to this.   Matthew: Is anyone hearing this?   Becky: Yeah. Then there is another song. That is right up there for me. That every time it comes on I am like no. There is no way, no how, nope.   Matthew: What is it?   Becky: Oh, you will find out because it is going to be, I think, on our next episode.   Matthew: Oh, this will be interesting.   Becky: Yeah, yes.   Matthew: Actually. You know what. I realized we mistakenly forgot to do for our last episode.  We need to give…   Becky: We keep doing this.   Matthew: We have to assign a yikes.   Becky: We did not assign a yikes. Then we also forgot that we do have a Web site.   Matthew: You, know what? People who are bingeing this up.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: You will been binge these episode…   Becky: And you will know. It is just whatthelyric.com. I mean, really make sense.   Matthew: Exactly.   Becky: The yikes factor on this one for me. Oh God. I love it.   Matthew: Yeah. That is the thing where it is like honestly.   Becky: Hmm.   Matthew: Well, it depends. Right. Because it is like infidelity.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: That is not pleasant. But lyrics purely on lyrics alone. I think that is where we have to go with.   Becky: It is a little like that holiday song. Baby its cold outside where people like, oh, my God, that is awful.   Matthew: Oh, yes.   Becky: We should never play it again, but we remove it out of the context of the time that it was done in. And granted, it's never okay to be pushy with a woman at the same time. Is 1940s much like shipoopi with 1950s. It is not like somebody is writing up, redoing shipoopi.   Matthew: To make it…   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: Hip and also consensual.   Becky: Though maybe I will give it a go.   Matthew: I hope you do.   Becky: I am going to do the female version of it.   Matthew: He poufy?   Becky: What would that be? Oh, no.   Matthew: He is shitty.   Becky: Oh that, I am writing it down. He is shitty. Okay I am writing down he is shitty, and then this is my assignment. Okay, it is going to take a while, but I will come up with something.   Matthew: Love it. That should be the season finally.   Becky: [Inaudible 00:30:35] shitty. Matthew: Debuting.   Becky: Oh, if only I knew someone who could get like Peter Griffin to read it. It would be amazing. Yeah, so on the yike scale. For me, I just…sigh, [Inaudible 00:30:56] is a tough one for me because I have seen interviews and he's just Mr. Positive.   Matthew: I know.   Becky: So you cant really hate him, but God. His lyrics are awful.   Matthew: The lyrics are bad. I give it, trying to be unbiased, but I can't.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: Like I would say a solid 3, I'm almost out of 4. But the positivity and honestly the rest of it is like huh! Most of this is in Spanish. You just mistakenly said that you wanted to fuck a donkey with a monkey around or on the donkey.   Becky: Yeah, Maybe it is just the setting. He did not express what the setting was. Like they are out on a beach, some tropical beach where there is wild animals.   Matthew: That is true, and also, I feel like it's one of those things where it's like Pitbull is the Tobias Funke of hip hop.   Becky: Really? He is.   Matthew: Because he said shit where he is like, oh, I want it. It sounds like he wants to fuck this animal. But really, it's like I just blow myself.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: That is the equivalent.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: I just blew myself.   Becky: Yeah, I think you are right. I think he is. Yeah. Matthew: So I will give it a three.   Becky: See, I am going four. I feel like he's never really offended, like he's not. There is nothing super offensive about it. Like the donkey, butt thing is probably the worst. But that kind of rolls back on him, I mean.   Matthew: He did let these lyrics…..he both…   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: Helped write and perform these lyrics.   Becky: Yeah. I am going with a four on that one.   Matthew: [Inaudible 00:32:30]   Becky: LL Cool J on the other hand. He is like right up there. I am going with like one is like the end all be all the yuck factor. Is that what we said before? I probably do it all around.   Matthew: No. I forget… honestly I do also forget what the scale is. For the purposes of this podcast and moving forward.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: One is the worst. Five is the least offensive.   Becky: I am saying Pitbull is low grade offensive.   Matthew: Yes, okay. I would agree.   Becky: Yeah. On the scale, he is low grade. LL Cool J In the 80s, full on offensive like that whole song is epically like wow! In every way. I feel like I need a crying game shower after listening that. Also same deal with backseat of my jeep. But I still listen to them.   Matthew: You got to love them.   Becky: Kind of Religiously. Yeah, so I would give them. Backseat of my jeep, which I really wish I had kind of done too. And big ole butt more like two for me. Matthew: Okay, see I was leaning much more toward four for with this.   Becky: Oh!   Matthew: I will say I am a product if nothing but of my generation.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: You have to remember, like, boom. Twenty-three. Robin Thicke Blurred Lines come out.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: Suddenly someone being like I am having sex with a lot of these women and in really inconvenient places. But I'm only referring to their butt, I'm referring to their butts as butts and not like she's got a fine ass on her like a donkey.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: So I am kind of like this is heart-warming. He is only calling it a butt. And, you know, it's like he is problematic in different ways, but not as bad as…   Becky: Oh.   Matthew: You know, raping people, raping and pillaging.   Becky: Yeah, he was definitely rapey. Yeah, I'm going…     Matthew: I like spread, though.   Becky: Apparently so did LL Cool J. Seems to be a common theme in the rap.   Matthew: They all like the spread.   Becky: Even some of the ladies. Yeah. God, I am trying to think who is the one. There was one Lil Kim who you can't even… doesn't even look like she used to. I was like that's not a Lil Kim. Oh, my God, it is. Yeah, she liked the spread, so to speak.   Matthew: Oh, I agree. But I feel like this is product. I feel like we hit some high notes in hip-hop. Becky: Yes. We went with the tried and true. The old school, like one of the godfathers of hip-hop, sort of. More popular hip-hop.   Matthew: And one of the parasite's.   Becky: Yes. Exactly I mean, God love your Pitbull.   Matthew: But is he even making music? I am sure he is.   Becky: Guarantee tomorrow we will be like, oh…   Matthew: The newest Pitbull song.     Becky: He just drop the deuce, so to speak.  That is kind of wrapping it up on the hip-hop. Oh, I pull a dad joke. Next time, we are just going rogue and we are picking whatever, the hell we want. And I will tell you, I have a doozy.   Matthew: I have no doubts. Oh, I should have thought of No Doubt.   Becky: No   Matthew: [Inaudible 00:36:06] hole But we will save that for next.   Becky: Oh, all right. So next time it is our free for all. And we will talk to you guys then.   [Music playing]   [End 00:36:35]

Join Becky and Matthew as they turn their attention to musicals - both the broadway kind and the movie musical kind.  One is from the golden age of Broadway.  The other is from a little know movie opera from 2008.  Both deserve to be skewered.   What the Lyrics? Musicals [Start 00:00:00]   Becky: Hey, guys, just a quick note. When we went to record this, I left my headphones at home so I couldn't hear the funky noises that were happening when I was banging on the table during this discussion because I was so excited and heated about this discussion of musical songs. I apologize for that. Hopefully doesn't interfere with you loving the episode and liking us a million times and telling your friends about how awesome we are. With that said, I hope you enjoy it, and next time I will remember my headphones.   Music playing [00:00:38-00:00:45]   Becky: Welcome to What the Lyric? The podcast that confirms, yeah, that actually made it to radio. Welcome to Episode 3 of What the Lyric? Today we are talking musicals. How are you doing Matt?   Matthew: I am doing pretty well considering how much research I had to do into bad musicals, of which there are many.   Becky: There are a lot and a lot have made money, which is the part that I don't quite get. I am not sure how they made money because they were so bad.   Matthew: Agreed, and I took a broad stance on the definition of musicals. So thinking more along the lines of not just Broadway musicals, but off Broadway and basically movie musicals.   Becky: It was the movie ones that I was kind of like, do I go Disney? Because Disney has some crap lyrics, or I could go to all the stuff, we did when I was in high school. What did we do? We did Grease, but we had to change the lyrics on some of the stuff because it was too racy.   Matthew: Such as?     Becky: In one of the songs about him meeting. It was some weird slang for condom, but we could use it. Matthew: Was it rubber?   Becky: It was not using. I don't think it was. I would have to look it up but I think it was rubber. I feel like it was something like balloon or something. But you knew what it was when he was thinking about it. So we had to kind of do like the radio edit and go [sound 00:2:30] or something in it so that you filled in the blank.   Matthew: Which teenager does not know about condoms?   Becky: Oh my god. It was in the 1990s.   Matthew: Oh, they really did not know about condom.     Becky: 1991, so we should have. I mean it was all coming up then so we should have left it in there but no.   Matthew: I mean our high school did Wizard of Oz. That is very wholesome to an extent considering the fans, I don’t know, destruction.   Becky: Yeah. The Wizard of Oz. What else do we do? Of course, there is always music Man Fiddler on the Roof.   Matthew: South Pacific.   Becky: You guys had some serious production.   Matthew: I did not say it was good.   Becky: High school musicals are very rarely good. I mean, let us be realistic on that one. I went back to my high school musical roots for mine.   Matthew: I think that is a perfect segue way into me asking   Becky: Okay.   Matthew: Where did you go?   Becky: All right.   Matthew: Take us back.   Becky: We are going back to and in the movie sung by Buddy Hackett, who I remember from when I was younger and he was an older man who I have this vague recollection of him being like a dirty old man kind of guy.   Matthew: I mean he was way. Wait, when was this made?   Becky: 60-65, let us say. I want to say 65. No, Sorry. Well, the musical was 57; 62 was the movie.   Matthew: That was a generation of dirty old men.   Becky: Yeah, yeah. Also covered by the Family Guy and several other outlets. I am just in a dive right into it. You ready?   Matthew: I don't believe so, but I'm willing to listen.   Becky: I think this first group, set it up nicely. Well, a woman who will kiss you on the very first date is usually a hussy and a woman who will kiss you on the second time out is anything but fussy. But a woman who will wait till the third time around. Head in the cloud, feet on the ground. She is your girl. You are glad you found. She is your shipoopi, shipoopi, shipoopi. The girl who is hard to get shipoopi, shipoopi. shipoopi, but you can winner yet. Mm hmm. That is shipoopi from the Music Man.   Matthew: Wow.   Becky: The whole thing is yet again a me-too movement in song form.   Matthew: Do we have any historical context for, is shipoopi slang for anything. Do we..   Becky: I don't think so. When I was doing the research for this. I just typed in worst song in a musical ever, and it brought up like some sort of forum for Broadway musicals. And everybody was writing these dissertations and one person just wrote shipoopi. And that's really all you need because shipoopi, I mean you can't say without giggling either, before, after, during and it shipoopi. What is that?   Matthew: And they don't explain it? That is why I love that. He does not need to explain it. He is just like.   Becky: No.   Matthew: So she is playing hard to get or presumably saying no. But it was like men who are super into...   Becky: My guess is she probably hates this guy. Thinks he is a total dill hole, but yet he just keeps breaking her down by saying shipoopi in front of her. Like a playground thing. He just keeps calling her shipoopi. And eventually she breaks out and goes, okay, I guess that's the guy.   Matthew: That is the guy from me. You know, I was not going to have sex with him the first day. Then he said shipoopi about 17 more times.   Becky: You know when I met your father.   Matthew: [Laughing] he had cutest name for me.   Becky: All he said was shipoopi. He did not say anything. He just said shipoopi over and over and over again. And we thought he had been dropped on his head, but apparently not. And that's when I fell in love.   Matthew: I knew he was the one.   Becky: By the third day of shipoopi. That is when I knew.   Matthew: Wait. What is the bumper sticker slogan that is like? Sorry, like not having to say sorry.   Becky: Oh, I cannot. Yeah, I know the one you are talking about.   Matthew: I think it is from a movie. Something means not having to say you are sorry.   Becky: Yeah, shipoopi mean.   Becky and Matthew: Not having to say that you are sorry.   Becky: I'm going to just start filling in shipoopi when I can't remember the words, which is a lot of times now that we've found out we have Alzheimer's and dementia in the family. So now, all of us are forgetting everything. So we are just going to be like, you know, that time shipoopi, you know? Right. shipoopi and see, who knows. But yeah, I mean and it continues on in the kind of abusive way with squeezer once when she isn't looking.   Matthew: Who!   Becky: Who does that?   Matthew: Apparently Buddy Hackett.   Becky: I like if you get a squeeze back that is fancy cooking. I don't know anyone, any woman who would get squeezed and be like oh, oh well hello. Then squeeze back and mean it.   Matthew: It brings up a very viable point. Of where on the spectrum of being touched does being slapped follow like is it technically a squeeze?   Becky: It could be. Or she might have just grabbed him by his junk and was like, never do that again, if you want to keep this and then he said once more for a pepper upper, she'll never get sore on her way to supper. So all this is happening, I presumably on the first date?   Matthew: No, because then she will be a hussy. So would it be…?   Becky: Well, no. If you kissed her on the first date, is she is usually a hussy.   Matthew: I see.   Becky: The second date it is your borderline because a woman who you kiss the second time out is anything but fussy. She is, you know, almost out to pasture. Then the third time around, that is the gal.   Matthew: Okay, got you.   Becky: If on the third day you squeeze her and she squeezes you back, home run.   Matthew: Fancy cooking.   Becky: Yeah, It is fancy cooking and a home run. Then once more up for a pepper upper. If you do it again and she is game, then you have just won the World Series, I guess.   Matthew: Marry this woman.   Becky: Yeah. Yeah. I cannot even.   Matthew: I feel like this song is a good example of like, is it bad lyrics? Because in the 50s and 60s, you had no way of just saying like, oh, we are banging on the bathroom floor.   Becky: Yeah. I mean.   Matthew: There is a lot of euphemisms for sex here. Fancy Cook and Pepper upper.   Becky: Well, pepper upper. I think drugs. I think we are looking for like an upper. Like maybe, a little ecstasy or I don't know, special k. Do kids still do that? Is that even a drugs?   Matthew: I think I am sure. I am a square, you are talking to the wrong person. I am impressed. I am assuming that most of these are euphemisms for sex.   Becky: I don't know. I should have asked my mother and father and be like, hey, when you guys were kids and talking about slang for sex. Did you ever go shipoopi or fancy cooking or pepper upper?   Matthew: Actually, there is still time. So like the follow up to this episode will be the [Inaudible 00:10:37]   Becky: I will call my parents after this.   Matthew: We will record it.   Becky: Quick question. It would not be any worse than, some of the questions my mom woken me up with her asking to, tell her what some slang means because somebody's at work, young kids that work mentioned and she didn't want to seem like she was not cool.   Matthew: Uncool.   Becky: Yeah. Tea bagging was one of them.   Matthew: Perfect. Never forget where you were. The moment your mom asks you.   Becky: No, I was not. I will not. I just gotten to work. And my mom called and she said, hey, look, I got a question for you, can you. What is tea bagging? I just walked in the door. Can I call you back after I call my therapist and get some coffee? And apparently it was during the whole like…   Matthew: Tea Party moment?   Becky: Tea Party stuff. And mom, they were joking. It said something about Tea Bagging and I had to explain tea bagging. It went downhill from there. Years of therapy for that one.   Matthew: That is fancy cooking.   Becky: And a pepper upper in the morning if you have to answer that question, yeah.   Matthew: To say the least.   Becky: [Laughing] you have no idea. I was like I'm sorry, what now? did you just ask me. I got to go. I need to call my therapist. And I’m actually my therapist right now, and the siren. Oh, Seattle full moon weekend. You are the best.   Matthew: I should have curse a lot more. Just so, we can edit it out.   Becky: I know, oh well. All right. So Matt, what did you go with?   Matthew: Since we will be releasing the other music episode, we did.   Becky: Yes.   Matthew: This is actually a redo by my request. Upon reflection, realized that I feel like I had not done my due diligence. Right. Because the purpose of this podcast is to find bad lyrics and call them out as they happen, even in songs that we love. Upon reflection, I realize that rent, the reason why I called out rent the way I did is because I fucking hate that musical.   Becky: The musicals is awful.   Matthew: The lyrics were not necessarily the problem. The content of the entire musical is what really bothered me.   Becky: Yeah. That is a whole other episode. Like we could take down the entire musical in one episode. Maybe that would be a probably a two-parter.   Matthew: Yes just for me.   Becky: There is an intermission in that play.   Matthew: Forty-five minutes of me bitching about this movie because of how much, I fucking hate rent.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: But I was like, you know the lyrics were not necessarily bad. I just hated the content. So then, I dug deep and ended up watching a movie musical from 2008.   Becky: 2008.   Matthew: The two biggest names would have been Paris Hilton, and Sarah Brightman.   Becky: what?   Matthew: Who famously.   Becky: Was married. To Andrew Lloyd Webber.   Matthew: The best play write of a generation.   Becky: I dislike that guy and all, he's written so much. I cannot. I just cannot. I cannot.   Matthew: Surprisingly, though, he did not write. It feels like this would have been something he wrote.   Becky: Paris Hilton and Sarah Brightman.   Matthew: I think they were the two biggest names. Also, the guy who played well, he was on Buffy. I think he was British.   Becky: Oh, yeah. Who then married…   Matthew: Giles.   Becky: Yeah. Who then married one of the other characters in that.   Matthew: Did not realize that.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: But he is in this movie as well. I ended up watching.   Becky: 2008.   Matthew: Eleven years ago.   Becky: God. Okay, 2008. I don't even know what happened in 2008.   Matthew: Financial crisis.   Becky: Okay.   Matthew: Well actually, that could play into this story.   Becky: Please tell me, they did a musical, The Wolf of Wall Street.   Matthew: I think that on is still in the works.   Becky: probably. What the hell?   Matthew: I don't really have any hints, but I will say that it is. Repo, the genetic opera, which if you have heard of or have not heard of, rather, is a movie musical from 2008. The overall plot of which is that everyone is getting cancer. Everyone is dying in this dystopian land. As they are dying, there is this one capitalistic company that says, oh, well, we have organs essentially for rent. We will give you these organs to keep you alive. But if you miss any payments, the repo man will come take the organ and you will die.   Becky: This feel like that Tom Cruise movie. What was that one? Similar? I don't know if it was similar. It is probably not, I just see Tom Cruise and then I go to my happy place because I cannot stand him either. Oh, well that is gone now. I have to look at.   Matthew: I feel like…   Becky: It is shipoopi. It is shipoopi.   Mathew: Tom Cruise in shipoopi.   Becky: I would see that. Actually, that would be something I would see.   Matthew: His voice undoubtedly is terrible.   Becky: That laugh, I needed that laugh.   Matthew: That is the overall plot of it. There are a lot of twists and turns in it. It is a real weird movie musical. I am not sure if I recommend it, but I do recommend watching it just so that you get context for how bad the song is. One of the main characters is a girl who is told that she has this terrible condition. She basically can't go outside.   Becky: Oh, my God. Like bubble boy?   Matthew: Exactly. Spoiler alert. Full spoiler alert. It is not real. Her dad was just like I told you that so you wouldn't leave an entry this like dystopian land, whatever. But the entire movie is incredibly angst. The main character, this little girl named Shiloh is 16. Then she celebrates her 17th birthday and she has a song about turning 17. That, is the song that I have picked. It is called 17 and I chose it. Not only because of how terrible the lyrics are, but also it is precisely a Goth version of 16 going on 17…   Becky: Thank you.                                                                                                           Matthew: From sound of music.   Becky: I was going to ask is it? Please tell me that it has something to do with, I am 16, going on 17. Minority Report was the movie I was thinking.   Matthew: Yeah, okay. I could see that.   Becky: Yeah, sorry.   Matthew: Sound of music. Right. It is super cute. She is falling in love with the Nazi.   Becky: Sad note, I have never seen it.   Matthew: Oh. Spoiler alert. She fall in love with the Nazi.   Becky: Yeah. I have never seen it, but I know it. I know all the lyrics, to that frickin musical as well.   Matthew: She is 16   Matthew and Becky: Going on 17.   Matthew: It gets repeated a lot. It is very cute. I think she is like very excited about that.   Becky: She dating a Nazi, wait.   Matthew: Yes.   Becky: Okay. Yep, there we go.   Matthew: She is dancing on a gazebo with him and she is very happy to turns 17. Shiloh in this movie, however, is very displeased to be 17. And what I will pause it here. Is that Repo the genetic opera for all of the bad lyrics, in fact, actually nails were being 17 is like. Let's take a look at the lyrics.   Becky: The title of the movie makes me think a repo man like an opera of the Repo Man, which would be kind of awesome. I don't know if you can still get Emilio Estevez.   Matthew: Probably not, but this is like a much dumber version of it. I still recommend watching it. Only if you are inebriated in some way, but don’t do drugs kids.   Becky: Yeah, that will be later on today.   Matthew: Yes. Alcohol or weed. That is as strong as my recommendation get.   Becky: That will be today.   Matthew: It is very angst. She cries out 17. Momma drama has to go dad. 17, nothing is going to bring her back. Oh, her mom is dead. Also spoiled alert. Her mom's dad. Hence mama dramas.   Becky: I thought maybe he had a couple of ladies on the side and he didn't know which one was the actual mother of this kid.   Matthew: Oh, no, he is not dating. But the daughter is distraught. Her mom's dead, so 17. Nothing is going to bring her back. 17, experiment with something living. 17, cause I am sweeter than 16.                              Becky: That sounds like dad is hooking up with his daughter.   Matthew: The movie leaves that open. I mean, not really, but there are some weird things happening there.   Becky: Please tell me that this, character's played by Paris Hilton.   Matthew: No, sadly.   Becky: Damn it.   Matthew: But Paris Hilton's character is very on brand…. I will does not spoil that.   Becky: Does she sing?   Matthew:  Not well.   Becky: That is right. She did have an album out.   Matthew: She did. We all know she did not get many after or any Grammys.   Becky: Did she really mean to? She is loaded,   Matthew: Right. That ends up being the chorus. So I will stop yelling 17 at you, but just know that throughout this she got 17. Other choice lyrics, I would say. Again, I feel like this captures my experience being a 17 year old. I have always longed for true affection is one lyric. I am like, okay. Like, that is not a bad lyric.   Becky: No.   Matthew: But the next line after it is. But you compare me to a corpse.   Becky: What?   Matthew: And then the third lyric is Stay with the dead. I'm joining the living cause I'm freer than 16.   Becky: Huh? Okay.   Matthew: Right. It is teenage angst.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: Specifically served up in teenage incomprehension.   Becky: Yep.   Matthew: Which I do appreciate. I don't know why 16 is the thing holding her back. Why she needs to be freer than 16. Also, I don't know why she got compared to a corpse.   Becky: Yeah, and I got to say, being 46 now. 16 looks awesome because nobody else is paying my goddamn bills.   Matthew: Doesn't it feel great?   Becky: And like my laundry was getting done? Like, yeah. Food was…   Matthew: Served.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: You did not have to cook. You did not have to clean.   Becky: No.   Matthew: Pay bills.   Becky: Nope.   Matthew: did not have to work.   Becky: I just had to be angst, and sit in my room and listen to music.   Matthew: Exactly.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: Music like 17 from repo the genetic opera.   Becky: Just like that.   Matthew: So it goes on because there are two more things that I really appreciate about this. Number one; there is a Joan Jett solo in this.   Becky: As in like the real Joan Jett?   Matthew: Yes. She makes an appearance in the movie.   Becky: Wow.   Matthew: Bless you Joan Jett. But you did not need that.   Becky: No, no, no, no, no, no.   Matthew: Joan Jett makes a very strange appearance. But the final lines, I just love because they're terrible. She goes something is changing. I can feel it building suspense. I am 17 now. Why can't you see it? 17 and you cannot stop me. 17 and you won't boss me. You cannot control me, father. Daddy's girl is a fucking monster and that is the end of the song. It is one of these that I am like, I know that they're bad lyrics, but deep down the very small angst part of me as a twenty nine year old is like, yeah, fuck em, fuck parents. Boom make money.   Becky: She is a monster. What? Please tell me. She turns into like some sort of weird. I don't know. I just picture like the Toxic Avenger. But a 16 oh 17 year old girl.   Matthew: Yeah. She is freer. She is sweeter and freer than 16.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: She did not turned into a monster. She ends up actually being. Actually, I think it is a very good metaphor for puberty because she is saying all these things in song form.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: First of all, you took the time to create a song to convey your angst. That is a very teenage trait.   Becky: Oh, God, yes. Yeah.   Matthew: She does all of this. Then at the end of the movie, it turns out she is a big softie who like as her spoiler alert, dad dies. She is like, I love you, dad. I am sorry I was kind of an asshole. And I forgive you for lying to me about a debilitating condition that led you to lock me up for 16 years.   Becky: Okay, I have never been in that situation before, but clearly, the last time we heard about this, the girl killed her mother, just saying.   Matthew: That is true.   Becky: Yeah. Serving in time.   Matthew: Now, she is locked up in a different way.   Becky: Yeah. You are no longer free. So probably should have just left the house. Yeah. Okay, that is bad. Now I kind of want to see this at the same time.   Matthew: I do recommend it, but not because it is good.   Becky: Where did you see this? How did you see this?   Matthew: If anyone is interested in watching Amazon Prime, it is available. Just watch it.   Becky: Okay. Well, now I know what I am doing this week.   Matthew: Imagine if you really, really overfunded my chemical romance music video,   Becky: Oh God.   Matthew: So that is your aesthetic. Repo the genetic opera is absolutely the movie for you.   Becky: Oh, that is…   Matthew: Paris Hilton. Her best performance, arguably.   Becky: That is just awful. I cannot even like I bought this backpack. Then I realized, oh, my God, I am 46-year-old version of a vsco girl, unintentionally. Now I am, oh I kind of want to return.   Matthew: Wait, a what girl?   Becky: Vsco girl. Apparently, all these Instagram girls, it is a weird of crunchy, granola hippy kind of thing with really expensive accessories. Vsco is like a filter. You can run the photos through. Of course, all these girls do that.  It is like the backpack, like scrunches. Why? Anyone, want to bring that.   Matthew: [Inaudible 00:26:11]   Becky: I cannot even begin crocs in like Birkenstocks. It’s like, can we go in now on both of those? Sorry. No, no, no. No. Can do skis. What was the other thing? Oh, like a puka shell.   Matthew: Oh yeah.   Becky: Necklace kind of thing. I did not buy the $80 backpack. I went for the Chinese knockoff, but it is like that. Eighty-dollar Swedish backpack, which, by the way, somebody told me they got for their daughter. And she's like, and I looked inside. It is made in Vietnam. I was like, way to go, Sweden. Then I thought, well, had I known about that 6 years ago, I would have bought one when I was there. But no, no, no. I was like, oh, I am now this…   Mathew: Vsco girl.   Becky: Forty six year old vsco girl. I will put my hair up in a scrunches. Then there was some other accessories that I was like, Oh, sweet Jesus. There is one clothing company. That only makes one size. And it's like a size Barbie doll. I don't know. It is like a small. Then their clothes are like. It is like some Italian clothing company, Quartz.   Matthew: Yikes.   Becky: Which is funny because all the Italian ladies in my family were not Barbie size. But whatever, probably not their target market, but yeah, so.   Matthew: Wow. I mean, I, for one, am just grateful that I'm neither a vsco girl nor am 17 anymore.   Becky: Oh, thank God. Yeah, I don't even remember what… Oh, I do remember it as doing and it was not good. Properly better, pass that.   Matthew: You could have put all of your angst into a song and you would have felt properly much better.   Becky: I would properly come up with shipoopi though, as opposed to that.   Matthew: I think we both are on par.   Becky: Yeah, we got it.   Matthew: We nailed what being 17 was like in two different decades.   Becky: Shipoopi. Oh, shipoopi. Yeah. All right. Well, I think that probably rounds out the old musicals. Thank God. So coming up next week, or next episode next week, episode, whatever. It all runs together right now.   Matthew: We will release it when we want.   Becky: When we feel like it. No pressure, please. So next time around, we are doing hip-hop.   Matthew: I am excited.   Becky: I had to kind of figure out what the definition really was, because for me, it was just straight up rap. But it's not cause I looked and Drake's in there and post Malone. I don't get that one at all. Beyoncé was in there, and like that's more like R&B stuff to me.   Matthew: Interesting.   Becky: R&B pop.   Matthew: I will be very curious to know what you choose.   Becky: Now, full disclosure, I do love me some Old-School Hip-Hop and by Old School, I mean like 80s. Cause I remember Fab 5 Freddy on MTV, which you have no idea who that is.   Matthew: I sure don’t.   Becky: Yeah, he was in Blondie video and she even mentioned him in it. Old school. I can't remember, I think he was a rapper and M.C. but I can't remember it. Oh my god. My brain is fried and all of my friends who know are yelling right now. But yeah, I remember Fab 5, Freddy and then Yo!, MTV Raps and then it became the two Ed lover and Dr. Dre, but not the Dr. Dre we all know and love today. Yeah, so.   Matthew: This will be good because we are going to be getting that [Inaudible 00:30:14] and then I will be serving my purpose as the millennial on the podcast by bringing us back to 2008.   Becky: Oh, minus.     Matthew: Wow. I just realized I am a 2008 freak.   Becky: Sticking with the year. I don’t even know when mine came out. I want to say it was late 80s, early 90s. So Yeah. All right. Well, that is something to look forward to, and I guess that is the end of this episode. And we will see you next time. When we ask What the Lyric?   [End 00:30:45]  

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Matthew: Hi, everybody. My name's Matthew White and I'm here interviewing Mary-Birch Harmon, who we lovingly we lovingly call MB. MB, we know you go on lots of trips for Habitat For Humanity. Could you please explain exactly what is Habitat?MB: Sure. Habitat For Humanity is an NGO that's based out of America and it's committed to stopping poverty housing all over the world.Matthew: All over the world. OK, so normally do you do your work in America or where do you go?MB: I have gone on many trips in Asia actually. I'm mostly involved with Habitat For Humanity International.Matthew: So how many trips have you been on?MB: I've been on six different trips.Matthew: OK, six trips.MB: Yeah.Matthew: And where did you go on the last trip?MB: I went to Papua New Guinea for two weeks.Matthew: Two weeks.MB: Yeah, and I went with ten students and there were three teachers on the trip as well.Matthew: Students! And how do you convince students to go on these trips?MB: Well, I'm a member of a campus chapter through a university in Japan and I've been able to go on these trips with the students because they are very committed as well to stopping poverty housing and they've studied a lot about the different countries that we visit and they've studied a lot about how we can help by helping to build a house.Matthew: You said you went to Papua New Guinea last time.MB: Yeah.Matthew: Can you tell us a little bit about what that experience was like?MB: Sure. We had a wonderful time. We were there for two weeks and we were working on a wooden house. In the previous trips we never had used wood before so this was a new experience for the students and for myself and it was lot of work. It was a lot of hard work but we were able to finish most of the house. We didn't complete everything, but we worked as hard as we could and we put a lot of love into the house and it was a lot of fun.Matthew: So do you have... I mean, how do you... You're building a house. Do you have some special construction skills?MB: No, I don't. I'm an unskilled laborer, but when you go on a trip they have skilled laborers there, or skilled people there that teach you how to build, so we do very simple tasks and we try to help the local people or the family build their house.Matthew: When you say simple tasks, simple can different for different people. What's a simple task?MB: Well, like we learn how to mix cement which means that you have to mix it using the cement sand as well as water as well as rock or you learn how to plane wood which is to make it very smooth, or you learn how to hammer a piece of wood for a wall or for flooring or anything like that. Simple meaning a job that anyone could learn how to do.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Matthew: Hi, everybody. My name's Matthew White and I'm here interviewing Mary-Birch Harmon, who we lovingly we lovingly call MB. MB, we know you go on lots of trips for Habitat For Humanity. Could you please explain exactly what is Habitat?MB: Sure. Habitat For Humanity is an NGO that's based out of America and it's committed to stopping poverty housing all over the world.Matthew: All over the world. OK, so normally do you do your work in America or where do you go?MB: I have gone on many trips in Asia actually. I'm mostly involved with Habitat For Humanity International.Matthew: So how many trips have you been on?MB: I've been on six different trips.Matthew: OK, six trips.MB: Yeah.Matthew: And where did you go on the last trip?MB: I went to Papua New Guinea for two weeks.Matthew: Two weeks.MB: Yeah, and I went with ten students and there were three teachers on the trip as well.Matthew: Students! And how do you convince students to go on these trips?MB: Well, I'm a member of a campus chapter through a university in Japan and I've been able to go on these trips with the students because they are very committed as well to stopping poverty housing and they've studied a lot about the different countries that we visit and they've studied a lot about how we can help by helping to build a house.Matthew: You said you went to Papua New Guinea last time.MB: Yeah.Matthew: Can you tell us a little bit about what that experience was like?MB: Sure. We had a wonderful time. We were there for two weeks and we were working on a wooden house. In the previous trips we never had used wood before so this was a new experience for the students and for myself and it was lot of work. It was a lot of hard work but we were able to finish most of the house. We didn't complete everything, but we worked as hard as we could and we put a lot of love into the house and it was a lot of fun.Matthew: So do you have... I mean, how do you... You're building a house. Do you have some special construction skills?MB: No, I don't. I'm an unskilled laborer, but when you go on a trip they have skilled laborers there, or skilled people there that teach you how to build, so we do very simple tasks and we try to help the local people or the family build their house.Matthew: When you say simple tasks, simple can different for different people. What's a simple task?MB: Well, like we learn how to mix cement which means that you have to mix it using the cement sand as well as water as well as rock or you learn how to plane wood which is to make it very smooth, or you learn how to hammer a piece of wood for a wall or for flooring or anything like that. Simple meaning a job that anyone could learn how to do.

Hour 1: Dr. Christine Ford has been nominated for a “distinguished alumni” award for “speaking her truth” …Schools are having a difficult time correcting students’ mistakes these days …CNN host Brooke Baldwin is triggered by a guest using the term “mob” to describe liberal groups targeting Brett Kavanaugh and Ted Cruz …Hurricane Michael could be very, very bad for the Florida panhandle …Amazon has become a true leviathan of a corporation – If you bought company stock in 2006, you are now quite rich …Campus Reform asks students at the University of Georgia whether a liberal speaker has ever been shouted down by conservative students …Has there ever been an instance in which ONLY the rich got a tax cut? …Are the 1960s about to return? Complete with political assassinations? Hour 2: Who will get into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame before Foreigner and The Connells? …Writer calls Beto O’Rourke “Reagan-like” – Where do the similarities even start? …Don’t trifle with a massive storm like Matthew – You can’t stand up to those winds …The park down the road from the studio suffers from flooding – And it rained a LOT in DFW yesterday …Amazon needs to get into the airline business – Jeffy would totally fly Amazon Air …Man puts his girlfriend up for sale on eBay – Bids reached $119,000 ...Woman barred from flight due to her “emotional support squirrel” …A brain scan that can determine suicide risk? A shopping cart that can detect unhappy shoppers? …CNN played host to an incredibly racist moment as two guests attacked Kanye West. Hour 3: Expect Pat to be even angrier and more unleashed next week …Display of rainbow flags erected at Azusa Pacific University to protest the school’s decision to re-institute ban on same-sex relationships …If you don’t want to sign the BYU Honor Code, go become a Utah Godless Animal …New York City may soon have a real “Gender X” policy to cover all gender identities …Australian model spends $10,000 on tattoos, piercings, and surgeries to become, wait for it, a dragon …Hillary Clinton was recently asked about the differences between the allegations against her husband and those levied against Kavanaugh …Pat reiterates that he will eat his underwear if Beto O’Rourke somehow upsets Ted Cruz …Melania Trump has handled the role of First Lady with incredible grace, yet she gets none of the love that Michelle Obama received …The best "one hit wonder" songs and artists in history. Tune in to "Pat Gray Unleashed" weekdays from 12-3p.m. ET on TheBlaze TV! Twitter @PatUnleashed LISTEN https://omny.fm/shows/pat-gray http://www.theblaze.com/radio-shows/pat-gray-unleashed/ https://soundcloud.com/patgrayshow https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-blaze-radio-network/pat-gray https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pat-gray-unleashed/id1280961263?mt=2 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

By far the most analytical and constructive talk I've given regarding leadership, personal branding, social media, interviewing skills, going all-in on your strengths, and more. The Campbell University Lundy-Fetterman School Of Business students asked questions like: - In talking about goals and standards. Do you have a current goal that you are pursuing? - What was the biggest difference in strategy for the 2005 campaign that you lost versus the 2009 campaign that you won? - What sort of management skills did you use during Hurricanes Irene and Matthew? - You graduated ECU with a business degree. Why was politics your first move versus marketing and building a company like Magic Mile Media? - I want to follow a more passionate route and turn it into a business, what's the one thing that's kept you motivated and driven? Is it the fear of not having enough resources or not having enough to provide for your family? - I'm much younger than anyone I work with and I do social media and mar

Matthew Ames was 39 years old when he was struck with illness. It started with just a sore throat but worsened to the point that he eventually ended up in the Hospital ER, where the last thing he remembers was describing his symptoms to a nurse before being placed in an induced coma. His doctors soon discovered he had a strep infection which had entered his bloodstream. Matthew had a 1% chance of survival and his doctors and family were left with just one option: amputate all of his limbs. Can you imagine what it would be like to go from riding a bike into work and renovating your own house, to lying in a hospital bed with no arms and no legs? Matthew couldn’t. Here are some of the key points from Dave’s interview with Matthew: You don’t know what you can do until you do it. We have an inner strength in us and we don’t realise how deep it is until we face something significant. Matthew’s wife was faced with the decision of whether or not to amputate Matthew’s limbs. Knowing who Matthew is and knowing that her role in their family would dramatically change, she made the call to amputate. Do you have people in your life like Diane who you would trust with your life in their hands? People who have your best interests at heart? People who can be selfless when it counts? Initially, while in Intensive Care, Matthew was focussed on survival. He would set himself 24-hour goals. When things get tough, you can focus on those small things you can do right now. Matthew’s strength to work on those goals came from his deeper “why”: wanting to get home. What is the deeper meaning or purpose behind why you want to achieve, do or have something? When you focus on that, you’re able to have greater motivation, focus and willingness. Keep trying different ways of doing something. This is the only way to learn whether something will or won’t work. Sometimes we get caught up focussing on the bigger picture. When you’re trying to achieve something or have something, concentrate on the smaller parts, step through the process and focus on what you can do, this will help you not get overwhelmed. It is ok to fail. Fail quickly, but also fail safely. Plan things out, think things through and make an honest (and safe) attempt. The second part of this interview will be our next episode. Challenge for the week: find one main thing that inspired you from this interview and use that as motivation for this week. Follow us at facebook.com/projecthatch and Instagram at @project_hatch. To contact us about retreats, leadership training and workshops, visit www.projecthatch.com.au or email us at hello@projecthatch.com.au. Remember to subscribe to, rate and review the podcast to help spread the do life better message. Now, go out and create a great day.

The Legends Of S.H.I.E.L.D. Director Stargate Pioneer and Agent Lauren discuss the sixth The Defenders episode “Ashes, Ashes,” highlight some recent Marvel news and respond to listener feedback. The Agents debrief you on the science of reanimating the dead, once last look at the amazing Stick, all the great team character moments, the Intra-Defenders Team fights, insights into The Hand Operations, Gao’s true feelings for Alexandria, and Elektra’s awesome power grab.   THIS TIME ON LEGENDS OF S.H.I.E.L.D.:   The Defenders “Ashes, Ashes” Marvel News Roundup Listener Feedback    THE DEFENDERS “ASHES, ASHES” [4:12]   DEFENDERS ASHES ASHES   The Defenders ShowRunners: Douglas Petrie and Marco Ramirez   Douglas Petrie (“Marvel’s Daredevil,” “Buffy the Vampire Slayer”) Marco Ramirez (“Marvel’s Daredevil,” “Orange is the New Black”)   Executive Producer: Drew Goddard (“The Martian,” “Lost,” “Alias”, “Marvel’s Daredevil”)   Netflix made all 13 episodes of The Defenders available on Friday August 18th, 2017.   Stephen Surjik http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0839660/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1#director 8th Discussion Appearance on Legends Of S.H.I.E.L.D.! Previous appearances: Episodes 83, 106, 112, 140, 142, 178, & 204 52 Directing Credits Beginning in 1985 1 x The Kids In The Hall Wayne’s World 2  (1993) 1 x The X-Files 2 x Monk 1 x Eureka 1 x No Ordinary Family 6 x Warehouse 13 10 x Burn Notice 1 x Arrow 1 x The Flash 2 x Jessica Jones 3 x Daredevil 7 x Person Of Interest 1 x Designated Survivor 1 x Luke Cage 1 x The Punisher 1 x Iron Fist 1 x The Defenders ALSO PRODUCER FOR: Intelligence, Warehouse 13, Common Law, Burn Notice, The Romeo Section   Written By: Drew Goddard http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1206844/?ref_=ttfc_fc_wr3#writer 6th Discussion Appearance on Legends Of S.H.I.E.L.D.! Previous appearances: Episodes 26, 63, 75, 76 & 206 17 Writing Credits starting in 2002 5 x Buffy The Vampire Slayer 5 x n 5 x Alias Cloverfield (2008) 9 x Lost The Cabin In The Woods (2012) The Martian (2015) 2 x Daredevil (Created By) 1 x The Defenders ALO PRODUCED: Alias, Lost, The Martian, Daredevil, The Defenders, The Good Place   Written By: Marco Ramirez http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3059675/?ref_=ttfc_fc_wr4#writer 13th Discussion Appearance on Legends Of S.H.I.E.L.D.! Previous appearances: Episodes 77, 80, 113, 117, 130, 131, 140, 143, 206, 208, 212 & 214 8 writing credits since 2007 3 x Sons Of Anarchy 2 x Orange Is The New Black 6 x Da Vinci’s Demons 1 x Fear The Walking Dead 6 x Daredevil 7 x The Defenders ALSO PRODUCED: Da Vinci’s Demons, Fear The Walking Dead, and Daredevil   “ASHES, ASHES”   Cold Opening Record Player   Defenders Around Headless The Iron Fist is literally a key to a lock “I’m a weapon. I’m not a key” They decide to hide Danny Rand Danny wants to leave Team versus Danny Sonic punch Jessica knocks out Danny   Construction Site = Midland Circle   Elektra finds her memorial card   Jessica and Matt go back to his loft Matt finds the missing card   Sowande’s Eulogy   Jessica and Matt go to the Architect's home Lexi   Gao talks to Alexandra Black Sky needs to go We’ll go after Iron Fist tonight   Danny Rand wakes up Midland Circle Luke Cage and The Iron Fist belong out there Stick is centering his Anima Danny and Luke trade stories   Lexi Starts Answers Questions   Elektra Goes To Her Grave Alexandra goes to talk to her Alexandra is dying Needs a substance from K’un-Lun   Stick is making this up as he goes along   Lexi Answers More Questions Jessica’s Reaction to Matt pretending to be blind Matt can play Plans in the piano. Something under Midland Circle   Stick tells his story to Luke … and Danny   Jessica and Luke Will Work Better Together   Stick’s Incense knocking Luke out Stick’s third option --- kill Danny Jessica and Matt race to rescue Danny Elektra comes to fight Stick; kills him Elektra defeats The Defenders and takes Danny   Alexandra’s Last Meal Elektra brings Danny   Board Room Danny tied up “You’ll serve” We need to secure the substance Elektra kills her “His name is Matthew” “You work for me now”   NEWS [xx:xx]   HIGHLIGHT STORY OF THE WEEK   Brian Michael Bendis leaves Marvel, signs exclusive deal with DC Comics https://io9.gizmodo.com/brian-michael-bendis-leaves-marvel-signs-exclusive-dea-1820213198   NETFLIX SERIES   Disney will bring an all-new Marvel series to its streaming service in 2019 https://io9.gizmodo.com/disney-will-bring-an-all-new-marvel-show-to-its-streami-1820313040   BLACK PANTHER & BEYOND   Chadwick Boseman chose his Black Panther accent to make a point about white supremacy https://io9.gizmodo.com/chadwick-boseman-chose-his-black-panther-accent-to-make-1820258023   Black Panther character posters revealed http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/11/09/black-panther-character-posters-revealed   FEEDBACK [xx:xx]   TWITTER   https://twitter.com/BornToEatBacon/status/927617049609859072 Johnny ~R‏ @BornToEatBacon FollowingFollowing @BornToEatBacon More Johnny ~R Retweeted GeekTyrant @LegendsofSHIELD @sithwitch @StargatePioneer @michelleealey Be still my heart, I just felt a twitch in my nether regions! Johnny ~R added, GeekTyrant @GeekTyrant Disney is in Talks To Buy 20th Century Fox! This Would Open The Door to The X-Men Joining The MCU http://bit.ly/2hhRkaT 1:21 PM - 6 Nov 2017   https://twitter.com/adanagirl/status/928504835124711424 Christy‏ @adanagirl FollowingFollowing @adanagirl More Christy Retweeted Foreign Policy Didn't Howard Stark invent that in the 1940s and call it Midnight Oil? I seem to remember it not going well. #AgentCarter @LegendsofSHIELD Christy added, Foreign PolicyVerified account @ForeignPolicy We got our hands on a DEA report about a drug that would allow drugged-up “superhuman soldiers” to stay awake for days at a time. http://atfp.co/2m6BT7a 12:09 AM - 9 Nov 2017   https://twitter.com/andiminga/status/928661889873301506 andiminga‏ @andiminga FollowingFollowing @andiminga More @LegendsofSHIELD for the last two  Inhumans episodes I only listened to the cast. and yeah, sounds like a better decision. 10:33 AM - 9 Nov 2017   OUTRO [xx:xx]   Haley, Lauren and Stargate Pioneer love to hear back from you about your top 5 Marvel character lists, your science of Marvel questions, who would you pick in an all-female Avenger team, or who’s Marvel abs you would like to see. Call the voicemail line at 1-844-THE-BUS1 or 844-843-2871.                    Join Legends Of S.H.I.E.L.D. next time as the hosts discuss The Inhumans eighth episode “And Finally, Black Bolt” on Sunday October 12th, 2017. You can listen in live when we record Sunday Afternoons at 1:00 PM Eastern time or Thursday Evenings at 9:00 PM ET at Geeks.live (Also streamed live on Spreaker.com). Contact Info: Please see http://www.legendsofshield.com for all of our contact information or call our voicemail line at 1-844-THE-BUS1 or 844-843-2871   Don’t forget to go check out our spin-off podcast, Legends Of S.H.I.E.L.D..: Longbox Edition for your weekly Marvel comic book release run-down with segments by Black Adam on S.H.I.E.L.D. comics, Lauren on Mutant Comics and Anthony with his Spider-Man web down. Legends Of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Longbox Edition is also available on the GonnaGeek.com podcast network.   Legends Of S.H.I.E.L.D. Is a Proud Member Of The GonnaGeek Network (gonnageek.com).   This podcast was recorded on Thursday November 9th, 2017.   Standby for your S.H.I.E.L.D. debriefing ---   Audio and Video Production by Stargate Pioneer of GonnaGeek.com.

ADOW - ch. 30 -34Enter Baldwin Montclair! Valerie patiently indulges Angela and Jean (truthfully, she gleefully eggs them on -- that might explain the episode length!) while they spend time with their favorite de Clermont. This has been named 'The One With the Bite,' because of Baldwin's declaration to Matthew: "You bit me!" In this episode, we also head to America (Madison, NY), and meet Sarah Bishop and Emily Mather (and Tabitha. And the House).This is our last recording in the age of innocence! It was produced 'BEFORE CASTING" aka "BC". When we found out that casting choices for A Discovery of Witches TV would be revealed, we decided to go on and record this episode as planned to keep our regular schedule going. BUT, we did record a reaction! Make sure you check out our Special Edition episode for our reaction to the casting news on delivered on August 22nd, 2017 (hint - #MatthewSquared). Produced on the fly, so the audio is a bit dodgier than we'd like, but we figured it would be forgiven for this sort of thing! Listen/view show notes here: go.DaemonsDiscuss.com/SE04Welp! Our Longest. Episode. EVER! Eek

Episode 131: Talking with an Adjudicator What is an adjudicator looking for? How do you handle an adjudication? How does an adjudicator approach their task? Lindsay talks to Matthew MacDermid who has been a high school and middle school adjudicator for 10 years in Florida. He's seen it all and talks about his process. Show Notes Close Encounters of the Undead Kind Episode Transcript Welcome to TFP – The Theatrefolk Podcast – the place to be for Drama teachers, Drama students, and theatre educators everywhere. I'm Lindsay Price, resident playwright for Theatrefolk. Hello! I hope you're well. Thanks for listening. This is Episode 131. You can find any links for this episode in the show notes which can be found at theatrefolk.com/episode131. Today, we're talking adjudication. Adjudication! There are many school festivals and competitions out there at the school level with a judging component. I've got the Sears Drama Festival in my backyard which I've adjudicated three times. In the States, there are thespian festivals – the International Thespian Festival and The Southeastern Theatre Conference theatre festivals. As a playwright, I have each year the good fortune to have a number of plays in various competitions. Some do well and sometimes I hear back from students pretty disheartening stories of what their adjudications were like. It's really one of my biggest pet peeves when I hear from a teacher or a student, “The adjudicator crushed us,” or, “The adjudicator hated our show,” or, “The adjudicator said we were no good.” The students just… they end up defeated. Absolutely, there is a place for criticism, but where is crushing? Where does that come into play at the school level, right? What purpose does that have in an educational setting? This is really one of the reasons that I started looking into adjudication and started doing it and the reason I became one and I've been one for five years now – because I firmly believe there's a way to approach a critique without making students feel defeat. But how does an adjudicator approach their task? If you've ever had the thought, “What was that adjudicator thinking?” well, then this podcast is for you. A couple of months ago, I was down in Florida adjudicating middle school students and I had the opportunity to interview one of my fellow adjudicators, Matthew McDermott. LINDSAY: Hello! How are you? MATTHEW: Good. How are you doing? LINDSAY: Excellent. Matthew, we are here at the Florida Junior State Thespian Festival. MATTHEW: That sounds right. LINDSAY: That sounds about right, big sentence. You and I are both here today. We are going to be adjudicating one-acts. MATTHEW: Yes. LINDSAY: And that's our topic of discussion for this podcast – adjudicating and what it's like to be on this side of the table where we're going to be looking at and commenting on shows. You were a thespian? You started out as a thespian? MATTHEW: Yes, I started off as a thespian in the later 90s which feels like an eternity ago. LINDSAY: Do you remember what it was like to be adjudicated yourself? Do you have memories of what that experience was like? MATTHEW: You know, I do; I remember every single person and every single piece of paper with every single bit of writing. It's amazing to me, especially now that I do this very frequently. I do it all over the state. It's amazing to me how much I do recall and that's what's also important to me to remember as I'm writing things and saying things. These kids hinge on every single word we say. LINDSAY: They do. MATTHEW: That's why it's even more important that we are very careful on how we word things because they're going to remember it forever. LINDSAY: Okay. What was the worst thing? What was the worst thing that someone said to you? MATTHEW: I don't think anything was particularly nasty. LINDSAY: That's good. MATTHEW: At least in the written way of saying things...

The Green Dragon Podcast Segment: Know Thine Enemy Army List: Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White Host: Travis Co Hosts: Tiernan, David, Matthew You can Contact us at: thegreendragonpodcasts@gmail.com And check out our Facebook Page at: www.facebook.com/TheGreenDragonPodcast The Green Dragon podcasts are non-for profit