Podcast appearances and mentions of dave krinsky

On this week's episode, we have music manager Dave Rose (Lit, Marcy Playground, Stryper and many many more) and we discuss his journey starting out as a bassist and what it's like managing today vs. the pre-digital age. Tune in for so much more.Show NotesDave Rose Agency: https://www.deepsouthentertainment.com/Dave Rose on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@daverosedeepsouthDave Rose on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/daverosedeepsouth/ A Paper Orchestra on Website: https://michaeljamin.com/bookA Paper Orchestra on Audible: https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptDave Rose:I'm so amazed that people pay me to do this. I was doing it long before I knew you could make money at it. And so the pinnacle for me is really that this continued joy of the business of musicMichael Jamin:You are listening to. What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. And today I got a special guest for you. Musicians out there. You don't deserve any of this. This is a wonderful treat for all of you. Don't say I never gave you anything. I'm here with Dave Rose from Deep South Entertainment and he is a career music manager. But Dave, first of all, welcome. I got a billion questions for you, but did you start off, are you a musician as well?Dave Rose:Thank you. Good to be here, Michael. Man, mutual admiration all the way around. This is exciting to be here. But yes, I started out as a musician. I was a, yes, I started out as a musician. I mean, yes and no, there's a story, but I became a musician out of necessity.Michael Jamin:How does that work? No one becomes, that's like the last thing you become out of necessity.Dave Rose:I know. Isn't that funny? So I was managing, and I very much put that in air quotes. Say I was a freshman in college and I had a local band decide they wanted me to be their manager. I was showing up at all their gigs and selling merchandise and unloading the van and doing all the things that I thought I could do to help. I just loved being around music. One day they said to me, would you be our manager? And I didn't know what the hell a manager was. I still don't. But they said, well, you could start by getting us some gigs. And that's not what a manager does, by the way. But that's when you're in college, that's what you do.Michael Jamin:That's not what a manager does then. Okay, you have to elaborate on that when weDave Rose:Can get into that for sure. So I got 'em 20 gigs and we had it all booked up and we're all ready to go. And we were two weeks out from the very first gig, big string of shows, playing skate ranches and pool parties and all the places that you play when you're just starting out anywhere and everywhere that'll give you room. And they came me and they said, our bass player quit and he's moving, so we need to cancel these gigs and we can no longer, we will audition new bass players later. I said, like, hell, you are, I've been watching this. It doesn't look like it's that hard to play bass, so here's what we're going to do. I'm going to cram myself in the basement with you, Mr. Guitar player, and you're going to teach me all the parts to these songs.We're going to go play these 20 shows with me as the bass player, and when we come back, you can audition bass players. That's how. And they were like, yeah, that's not how that works. I said, well, that's the way this is going to go. And so they did. I crammed myself in the basement and learned to play bass in two weeks, and it was rock and roll. It was three chord rock and roll. Wasn't real hard, but apparently I picked it up pretty easily and I played bass in a band for the next 10 years, but that should have been my first indication that I was not a musician. I learned how to play just to keep a band.Michael Jamin:But you must, if you played for 10 years, you're good enough.Dave Rose:Yeah, I mean I figured it out along the way.Michael Jamin:Wow. But then at some point you went to full-time management.Dave Rose:Yeah. Yeah. I ultimately segued into full-time management, and that was, I started this company putting out compilation CDs. That was a big thing. I started in 1995 and in the mid nineties, these sort of mix tape CDs were a big thing. And I would find local and regional bands from around the area and put 'em on this compilation CD and put it out and see what happens. But from the very first CD we put out, we had one of the biggest hits of the nineties, a song called Sex and Candy by Marcy Playground. And my intention was I would stick my band right in the middle of all these big regional bands or bands that I thought was going to be big and maybe my band would get some attention too. And I think nine bands on that first compilation got record deals accept my band. So that was kind of my moment of realizing, yeah, I'm definitely not, I'm way better on the business side of things.Michael Jamin:So then tell me then what a manager music manager does exactly if they don't get you work.Dave Rose:Sure. It's very different, I would guess, than in the film and TV business. And I would love to learn this from you, but I'm guessing in the film and TV business, the person that gets you work is the agent. Is thatMichael Jamin:Yes, the agent and not the manager and I have Right,Dave Rose:And that's what it is here. So a manager in music, I'm put it in the simplest terms, but it's like if the entire career is a wheel, the manager and the artist are in the center of that wheel. And all these spokes are things like booking agents and publicists and record labels and publishing companies and people that do film and TV music and all the accountants, the crew, all the thing, the attorneys that make the machine, the wheel turn. The manager is making sure all of those things are working. So it's sort of like being, I compare it to this, it's being the CEO of a band, but if you're,Michael Jamin:I'm sorry, go on.Dave Rose:That's all right. The band is owned by the band or the artist is owned by the, they own their company, but they retain an artist manager commission, an artist manager to manage their career.Michael Jamin:But if that band is going on tour, are you expected to go with them?Dave Rose:Only if you're in country music.Michael Jamin:Okay. Why is that?Dave Rose:It is different. Country music is one of the few genres that still very much lives and dies by the radio, and so the relationships with local radio is very important. So a manager should be there to kind of nurture those radio relationships from town to town to town. Now, if you're in rock and roll or hip hop or almost any other genre, Americana folk bluegrass, most managers do not travel with the band,Michael Jamin:But a touring manager would No,Dave Rose:A tour manager. Exactly. A tour manager does. And the tour manager is exactly, it sounds, it's the manager of the tour. So it deals with getting the bus from point A to point B and where do we park and what do I mean? It's way more than that, but it's the finance of the tour and they report to the artist manager.Michael Jamin:Now over the years, I've heard you mention this, you have a very, very big it's successful TikTok page, which is how I found you. You've managed a bunch of really big acts, right?Dave Rose:I've had some, yes. I've had a lot of, and I still do have a lot of big acts. It's been just amazing. I keep waiting for somebody to knock on my door and go, okay, gigs up. Time to get a real job.Michael Jamin:Can you share some of 'em with us?Dave Rose:Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So I got my start with Marcy Playground, and I'm still with them 26, 7 years later. But one of my first big clients was the piano player, Bruce Hornsby, who was in the Grateful Dead, and he had a bunch of hits in the eighties and nineties, but he's had a very, very unique career. He is done albums with Ricky Scaggs and Jazz Records, but Little Feat, the classic rock band of, they're just so iconic. The band Lit who had one of the biggest rock hits of the nineties, that song, my Own Worst Enemy, some of the country acts that I've worked with, Laney Wilson, who just won a Grammy, and yeah, I worked with the band six Pence, none The Richer who had the mega hit Kiss Me. And so yeah, it's been not to just, one of the bands I've been with the longest 23 years is an eighties rock band from LA called Striper. They kind of came up in the ranks with Moley Crewe and Bon Jovi and that kind world of big hair and Sunset Strip and all the things of Hollywood, but they're a Christian man. They sing about Jesus. So they're very, very different than that.Michael Jamin:At this point. Are new bands finding you or are you reaching out to them? How does that work?Dave Rose:Yeah, they usually find me at this point, I don't develop a lot of new acts anymore, mostly because I've just been doing it a long time and developing a new act from garage to Grammy is not only risky, but it's a long runway. And when you've been sort of doing it for as long as I have, and I don't mean any disrespect to anything on this, but you don't need to take that risk anymore.Michael Jamin:But it seems like on TikTok, it seems like you're talking to those people.Dave Rose:I am taking my audience on TikTok is very much the audience that is sort of just trying to figure out the next steps of a very complicated career path.Michael Jamin:But then why are you talking to them now if that's not, I assume it's because that's what you're looking for, but No,Dave Rose:Yeah, no, that's a great question. The reason I'm doing it is very pure, because it is hard to do this, and there's a lot of bad advice flying around out there. And to some extent, I wanted to get on there and level the playing field and just let people know the reality of how the business works. No, I'm not at all seeking to manage sort of startup band. I do some coaching that I'm more than willing to help them in. I'll do these 30 minute sessions where I can really, really fast track things for them, help them avoid years and years of mistakes in a very quick conversation. It's a lot like the stuff that you do in the sense that I'll meet an artist from Topeka, Kansas or wherever and how they're learning stuff that they would not learn anywhere else, only because nobody's ever told 'em.See Michael, something I think we ought to talk about at some point in here is part of why it's difficult to get a manager in the music business is because of how a manager gets paid. Okay, how did they get paid? I think that's an interesting dynamic that a lot of just, certainly a lot of people, but even a lot of artists don't know how that works. So how does that work then? Yeah, so a manager is paid by commission, so it's strictly a commission base. So if you are an artist and you go out and you play a show or you sell a T-shirt or make some sort of income, a percentage of that income is paid to your manager, includes the record deal, includes everything. It typically includes, and sort of depending on where you are in that artist's career, it includes most every aspect of their entertainment career, including what about royalties?It does include royalties, particularly if those royalties were ones that you helped them earn. If you get them a record deal and they continue to earn royalties either through radio play or whatever, you would earn a commission on that. So you're earning commissions on these revenue streams, and that's typically about 15%. So if you think about managing, like we talked about the wheel, all those different spokes in the wheel, maybe for each act that I manage, that's probably 150 decisions a day that we're making on behalf of that artist. So you can't manage a lot of acts as an individual. You can have a company like we do that manages, has managers that manage acts, but generally speaking, you can't manage a lot of acts. There's a lot that goes into a typical day of that. So the commission, if you just break it down to making a living, an artist has to be making significant money for it to be worth that manager's time to spend the bulk of their day managing their career.So when you've got an artist that's just starting out, and I want to get to why it's hard to get advice when you've got an artist that's just starting out and they're making no money and are making very little money, I don't know, 20, 30, 40, $50,000 a year, you think about that 15% of that is $5,000 a year maybe for the manager. So it's really not enough to say, I'm going to dedicate my life to you, which is really what it takes. So as a result, it's almost impossible for an artist to meet a manager. It's really hard to meet a manager. Our time is paid by commission. So that's why I get on TikTok and talk about the things I talk about because I was that bass player in a band not knowing what the hell I was doing, making every mistake under the sun. And I'm very, I don't know, very genuinely just trying to help people not make those mistakes.Michael Jamin:Now, you said something a while ago on one of your tiktoks, and I was surprised you don't come down. I thought everyone was supposed to hate Spotify and streaming because of the way, in my opinion, in my point of view, artists are being raped. I mean, that's how I see it. But you don't feel that way?Dave Rose:I don't. I mean, do I think it's a fair payment system? No, I think there's a lot of improvement that needs to happen. Part of what I think is the imbalance is the payments between an artist, a songwriter, and the record label. You see, when a song is on Spotify, those are the three main parties that sort of have to get paid a record label, an artist and a songwriter. And the songwriters are the ones that are really struggling in this time.Michael Jamin:From what I pay on what people pay on Spotify, I gladly pay double for what? I mean, I get every album I want to listen to at any time through the month, almost anything. And if I pay double, I still feel like the artists wouldn't be making not even close to what they used to make.Dave Rose:Well, yes. Again, we got to remember, there's three buckets. We're dealing with the artist, the record label, and the songwriter. And in some cases, that's the same person in all three of those buckets. If you go out and self-release a record, and you've written that record and you performed on that record, and you do millions and millions of streams on that record, you're making very respectable.Michael Jamin:I thought, again, I come at this completely ignorant. I know so little about it, but I think I saw a video by Snoop Dogg saying his album was streamed a billion times and he made 10 Sense or something.Dave Rose:That's a famous video. That video circulated a lot. And what is missed most often in that conversation is the difference in those three buckets. My gut tells me, and I don't know Snoop Dogg's complete history, but he probably does not own that recording. So a big chunk of that money that's being earned probably went to his record label, and I don't know, maybe he wrote the song, maybe he didn't, if he didn't write the song, he's missing that bucket of income, or maybe he did write this. So my gut tells me there's more to that story. SoMichael Jamin:Misunderstand this, which is fine.Dave Rose:I dunno, the full snoop do the inner workings of his business, but my gut tells me there's more to that story because I know no shortage of independent artists making a great, great living, really. But the thing that's different, and the thing that we got to think about that's different from say 2005, say 20 years ago, the biggest difference is the revenue streams now are very multiple. I mean, I met a band the other day that's doing insane six figures just on YouTube.Michael Jamin:On YouTube ad. So they put their music and they make ads on YouTube. Exactly, because they're not sellingDave Rose:It. That's right. The ad revenue is making four members a living, a very good living.Michael Jamin:See, it was my impression that, okay, so 20 years ago, a band would go on tour and after the show, they'd sell okay, merch, but they'd also sell the cd. If you want to listen to music, they sell. But now no one's going to buy that cd.Dave Rose:They do. They very much buy, well, more so they buy vinyl. The vinyl buy vinyl. And what's crazy, I was just on the phone with a head of a record label and he was talking about the rapid increase in the number of cassettes they're selling, which is crazy. It's just such a, I tell people this all the time, but you can't autograph a stream, so you're going to always need to have something that people can take home. I mean, I read the other day of all the vinyls sold only like 37% get listened to, but vinyl cells are through the roof, really. They buy the product, they get it autographed, they keep it as a collector's item, and then they stream it on Spotify.Michael Jamin:But why do you feel vinyl as opposed to a cd, which is just vinyl, but smaller and better quality? Why is that?Dave Rose:Yeah, I think CDs, I mean, also depending on the genre, certain genres are very cd, like country. People still buy CDs. If you go into a Walmart and rural America, you're going to see a lot of country in there. But yeah, I think vinyl partially because it's just big and cool to hold, andMichael Jamin:Yeah, you right, because not a lot of people have record. A lot of people don't even how to use a record like we do, butDave Rose:Yeah. Well, I mean you'd really be surprised, Michael. The vinyl industry is insanely huge.Michael Jamin:Interesting.Dave Rose:And really among kids, I mean, the kids are buying vinyl. If you go into an Urban Outfitters, which is obviously geared toward 20 somethings, they have a whole record section in there, whole vinyl section in their stores, and they sell record players at Urban Outfitters.Michael Jamin:Right, right. I always thought that was ironic. I didn't realize that they're making money that way. I know. I thought they were museum pieces.Dave Rose:Well, probably to some they are. Wow. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Now, do you specialize in any kind of genre of music or does that matter toDave Rose:You? I'm a rock and roll guy at heart, but I've done a lot of work in sort of songwriter rock. I've certainly had my share of country acts, although it's not my preferred genre, I've not done a lot in bluegrass, and I've not done a lot in hip hop, which is strange because if this is a visual thing, I'm staring at a Tupac Black behind me. So I say I don't really work in hip hop, but then I got to Tupac Black up here.Michael Jamin:I have a question for you. I don't think you're going to be able to answer this one. I don't know if there's an answer. ProbablyDave Rose:Not.Michael Jamin:So Daryl Hall has a show that I happen to catch sometimes. I think he shoots in his basement or something. You must've seen it, where he brings in friends, like eighties stars or whatever, Darryl'sDave Rose:House,Michael Jamin:Darryl's house, and he looks cool. He's got a blazer on, he's got dark glasses, and I'm like, okay, he looks cool. But then sometimes he brings in other men his age, which is whatever, 70, whatever it is, I don't know. And they're dressed and they're stars from the eighties, and they're dressed like they used to dress in the eighties. I wonder, how are aging rockstar supposed to dress? Do you have to answer this to your clients? YouDave Rose:Talk about this. Oh, yeah. We talk about, I mean, I tell artists this all the time, including my big artists. The biggest mistake you can make with a tire fashion, whatever you want to call it, is to not talk about it. You have to talk about it. A matter of fact, I recommend a band sometimes, particularly new bands, take a night and don't bring your instrument, get in a room together and talk about what you want This look to look like. It is so incredibly important and,Michael Jamin:But do you have an opinion on what it should be then? Should it stay what it was, or should it evolve?Dave Rose:I think it's interesting, like this eighties band striper that I talked about that I manage from the eighties, that it's the same guys 40 years later. Back in the day, there was a lot of hair and makeup and spandex pants and all the things that, and so no, they don't wear that anymore, and they don't wear the makeup and the teased hair, but they do an age appropriate version of that rock and roll gear and rock. ItMichael Jamin:Seems weird because the fans are coming to see their band. The fans don't want the band to age, but unfortunately the band aged.Dave Rose:Yeah.Michael Jamin:How do you give them what they want? It seems like, it seems like a really hard thing to struggle with.Dave Rose:It is. It's a tough thing. And the good ones, the ones that are really good at this, are good at sort of making fun of the, well, sort of making the audience one with them and sort of we're all aging together and this is welcome to us 40 years later. What I think we don't want is our aging rock stars to show up in sweatpants and a hoodie. We want 'em to show up at least caring and some resemblance of days gone by without being a carbon copy of that, because you shouldn't try to be,Michael Jamin:For the most part though, I imagine they're playing whatever their greatest hits, the songs that made them big, and the people, the fans, that's what they want to hear. And I imagine if I were a musician who's played the same song 30,000 times, I might get tired of this.Dave Rose:You would think, and here's what happens to a lot of them. Some do, yeah. They usually don't get tired of it. They get tired of being known only for that. There are some artists that have two or three mega hits so big you can't even compare. And as a result, there's no way for their catalog of deep catalog of hundreds of songs to sort of surface. It's why the band little feat that I worked with, they never really had a radio hit, and they always talked about the best thing that ever happened to us was never having a radio hit because we never had this super high. Instead, our fans consume our entire catalog. It's a little bit like the Grateful Dead in that sense. Grateful Dead never had this mega hit. They just had a lifestyle.Michael Jamin:Do they complain to you about this, though? Is this something they talk about?Dave Rose:Yeah, I mean, one thing that's interesting is when you're on stage and you're playing a 60, 75 minutes set or whatever, and you're playing songs from your catalog, one thing that you don't think about a lot, but when they hit that big hit, when they go into playing that big song that everybody knows of any song in that, it's almost like it's for them, it's a welcomed break in the set. Meaning when you're playing a new song, you're sort of working really hard to try to win this audience over on this new material or this unfamiliar material. So maybe if you're a rock band, you're probably moving around a little more. If you're whatever kind of band you are, you're just really giving it all to win over this crowd. But when you kick into a mega hit that they've heard a million times over, it's a moment you can just breathe.Michael Jamin:I see.Dave Rose:And go, okay, I'm good for three and a half minutes here. They're going to go nuts. No matter what we do.Michael Jamin:I would not have thought of. That's interesting you brought that up. I would not have thought it, but I would've thought it the other way around that like, oh, fuck, I got to play this again. ButDave Rose:No. Yeah, no. I do have a few artists that feel that way. One of my favorite moments in that regard was Sean Colvin. She's a kind of a folk songwriter artist, and she did end up having a big hit called Sonny Came Home, and that came out, I guess in the, I'm going to get the dates wrong, but that was a huge hit. Sonny came home and I went and saw Sean Colvin one night in concert, and she comes out on stage packed amphitheater, and she says, we're going to go ahead and play this song for those of you that just came to hear this, so you can go ahead and leave and the rest of us can have a good time.Michael Jamin:Is that what happened though?Dave Rose:That's why she opened the show when Sonny came home, and then what happened? I'm paraphrasing what she said there, but it was generally that for those of you that just came to hear the hit, let's play it. You can go about the way and sort of the implication was the rest of us who came to hear the entire catalog can now enjoy the show. DoMichael Jamin:You think people walked out? I mean,Dave Rose:Nobody left nobody. I was there. Nobody left. And that's a bold move. Yeah. I love that about her. And that's kind of the way a lot of artists feel about a big hit is like they don't dislike it. They love what it's brought to their career. They just dislike it being the only thing people may want to consume.Michael Jamin:I think about art, and you must have these conversations with your artists is like, how do you reinvent yourself on the next album when audience, your audience doesn't really want you to reinvent you. They want what they have, but if you give 'em the same, it's also like, yeah, we already have this. It seems so incredibly daunting to come up with another album that works,Dave Rose:Man. It is. And I got to say, in your world, I would think the same thing. How do you write the next episode given the audience what they want, but still keeping itMichael Jamin:Well, that's when they get mad at you. That's when they say the shows jumped the shark. Or they say, the show died four years ago. JumpDave Rose:The Shark. Is that aMichael Jamin:Term? Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. You haven't heard it. That refers to an episode of Happy Days when Henry Winkler, they put him on water skis and he had to jump a shark tank. I rememberDave Rose:That.Michael Jamin:And he was wearing a leather jacket when you saw Fonzi jumping a Shark tank in a leather jacket. You go, all right, the show is Jump a Shark.Dave Rose:Oh, I got to remember that. Oh, yeah.Michael Jamin:It's a famous term. Yeah, I worked with Henry years ago and we spoke about that.Dave Rose:Oh, really?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. It's funny.Dave Rose:What did you work on with him?Michael Jamin:It was a show called Out of Practice with Henry Winkler and Stocker Channing and Ty Burrell, and they were the three main leads, and Henry's like the sweetest man in Hollywood. But we spoke a little bit about thatDave Rose:Being a child of sort of growing up in the eighties. I'm going to be remiss if we don't at least, and I'm sorry, man, talk about asking somebody about their hit. Please tell me about Beavis and Butthead for a minute. I mean, I don't care what you tell me aboutMichael Jamin:There's, there's very little I can tell you. So I was friend, this is when they brought the show back. It's been on three times already. And the second iteration, our friends, John Altro and Dave Krinsky, they were the showrunners. They created Silicon Valley and now they're running the second beavers. But that was so they needed freelance writers. It was a really low budget thing, and they reach out to us and the money was terrible, but we just had a break in our, we were in between shows, so the timing was perfect. They said, do you want to write some Beavis? But so we pitched them maybe 10 ideas. They bought four, but that was it. I mean, that was kind of the involvement. Then we went to see Mike Judge, we went to the record session. So we'll go to the booth and we're all watching videos, and we we're literally standing over his shoulders watching music videos, just pitching jokes about what beef is, and Bud would say, and then he would go into the booth, do the voice, and come back out. That was my involvement. So it was only we because wanted, it was just a fun experience. It was not forDave Rose:Sure. Absolutely. What a, but again, I bet coming into it sort of midstream like that, what an even harder job. You've got hits. You want to give the audience what they expect, but you also want to give them what they don't expect. I mean, how you do that as an artist is hard.Michael Jamin:And do you have these conversations with your bands?Dave Rose:Absolutely. Yeah. Yes. Because the funny thing about music is none of us, if we sit down and listen to our Spotify list or whatever, and we have our catalog of music, none of us listen to one kind of music. We listen to all kinds of music, jazz and reggae and rock and whatever. We all have a mixture of taste, and depending on our mood, we want to explore that music. It's the same with artists. They don't think in one genre. They're artists. They're thinking all over the place. So it's really hard for them creatively to stay in this lane. It's why you see so many artists, I'm going to try to do a country record, or I'm going to try to do some other exploratory record, and that's okay. If you're Prince, you look like a genius. If you're Prince, if you're just starting out, you look confused. I don't know what I want to do, so I'm going to do a jazz song. So yeah, we do talk a lot about trying to stay, it's a terrible term for art, but trying to stay on brand with both your look and your sound and your music and the audience. When they go to buy a Bruce Springsteen record, they don't want to hear a jazz record. They want to hear good American rock and roll songs,Michael Jamin:But they also don't want to hear, I think you too may struggle with this. I think they got their sound, and it's like, all right, but I've already heard it.Dave Rose:They do struggle with that. Yeah, they've had a couple, and almost any act has their moment of when they look back on it, it's kind of like, what was I thinking?Michael Jamin:Right. I mean, to me, it sounds like I haven't listened to it in a while, but at one point I got an album there. I just thought it just sounded like every other, and they were amazing in the, I don't know, it seems like a very hard balancing act. How do you do this? How do you ItDave Rose:Is. It's why bands like Kiss, for example. I don't, I can't remember when. I think 20, I don't know. It was over 20 years since they recorded new music, just because they didn't want to attempt, they didn't top what they had done.Michael Jamin:I heard an interview by Cures for Fears, and they were talking about, and I didn't know this because really, I don't know the inside of music at all, but they were talking about how at one point, the album, I guess mid-career, that they were assigned a music producer and the producer kind of determined the sound. And I was, I surprised. I really thought that that's what they did. I thought they wrote all their songs and it said they were hearing songs written for them. I did not know that. I was really surprised. They are songwriters.Dave Rose:They are songwriters. And sometimes when a band or an artist hits that moment of how do we feed our fan base, but stay ahead of things, sometimes a good producer, outside writer can help move that along.Michael Jamin:On their last album, they shunned all that. They did it themselves, and I thought the album was terrific.Dave Rose:Yeah, I mean, I haven't heard it, but I've heard people say that,Michael Jamin:Oh, you haven't.Dave Rose:It's probably because they really went for the middle lane that they developed all along with their fan base. I mean, they're a brilliant act with an incredible catalog.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I mean, in the management world, at least in tv, in film, and for agents as well, it's not untypical for atypical for a writer or an actor to get to some point. Then they leave their manager or their agent, maybe they outgrow them or something happen. And how do you reconcile that?Dave Rose:Yeah, that happens all the time. In the music business, we call it the revolving door of managers and artists. I've had some come and go and come back and go,Michael Jamin:Really? Do you not take it personally then, orDave Rose:One of the things you have to do is truly not take it personally. And sometimes it's sort of like I look at it like this. If you were to own a restaurant and that restaurant grows and changes and involves a different manager, has different skill sets. We're not all graded everything. We're good at certain things. And if you happen to be at the place in your career to where you're with a manager that is good at the things you need, that's a perfect relationship. If you happen to go outside of that, then you might need someone with a different skillset. And oftentimes a manager is the first to say, I feel like I've taken you as far as I can.Let's find something new here. It's no different than a football coach or a restaurant manager or any sort of leader of a company. Sometimes for a lot of reasons, the stars align and sometimes they just don't. And if they don't, it's usually pretty recognizable to both parties. And there's very rarely, I mean, you certainly hear the stories both online and elsewhere of manager artists fallout, but by and large, I'm friends with every artist I've ever worked with, and I've never had a, I mean, I don't manage Bruce Hornsby anymore, but I just went backstage, went to his show and hung out with him after the show. And we talked about old times and had a good hang together. But there was a point in his career where I was and a point in my career where we just weren't at the same place, and I don't even mind sharing that. Yeah, please. He had been on RCA records for about 25 years, and the top brass at RCA was kind of changing, again, the revolving doors of executives at a record label, it was Tom. And so his life at RCA, his deal and relationship at RCA started to come to an end.And I was really, really, I had two other bands at RCA. I was sort of really inside the walls of RCA records at the time, and so I wasn't really best suited for the next step in his career, which was to find a new label, a New York based label. I was very much Nashville centric at that point, and it was just, we came to a place where I felt like for him to go where he needed to go, he needed somebody else, and he felt the same. AndMichael Jamin:It was, but that's another thing, because I see with my management, they have relationships at studios, and as you do have relationships and there, at the end of the day, you have your interests, and it is not like you're going to burn bridges with these studio that you have relationships with. You can only fight so much because of what you have with your other clients, right?Dave Rose:That's right. Yeah. It is probably like your business. It's a very small business at a certain level, a very small business. There's not a lot of, you're going to run into everybody again, and at some point you're going to want your act touring with their act, or you're going to want their act being featured on a record of your act. And if you burn bridges, it's just going to, I mean, I know people that do burn bridges, but it's rarely good.Michael Jamin:You are listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, a collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timbral. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirker View says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book. And now back to our show.What is then the pinnacle for, I mean, we know what the pinnacle for an artist's career would be, whatever, selling a ton of records playing the Super Bowl, whatever they aspire to do, but what's the pinnacle for your career?Dave Rose:Oh, that's a great question. Yeah, it's interesting. I was taking my son to school the other day and he said, daddy, work seems like it's really fun, is work really fun. And he's come to my office before, and I got thinking about that, and I've chosen a path that really is fun. Never, this sounds corny to say I've never felt like I've worked a day in my life, really. It just really has never felt like work. I am so amazed that people pay me to do this. I was doing it long before I knew you could make money at it. And so the pinnacle for me is really that this continued joy of the business of music.There's very few high level artists, celebrities I haven't met or come in contact with. And so none of that is really the moment for me. It's seeing an act like this band formerly that we're looking at. They're a country act. They've had four or five number one hits. They were playing in their garage in Greenville, North Carolina, small town where I grew up. I happened to just know them, and I took them to Nashville, one thing. So that's sort of what this business is for me. You see a band in a garage, and the next thing you know, they're accepting an award on stage, and it's just a beautiful feeling to know that you've helped an artist achieve those dreams.Michael Jamin:Interesting. It's interesting that that's where you take the joy in. I would think that part, you're not the one who wants that dream. You're not the one, the artist. You're not the one who wants that dream, your dream joy doing it for others.Dave Rose:I would think there's similar satisfaction in being a writer, I would think. I mean, maybe you were motivated to be on screen all the time or in front of the camera all the time, butMichael Jamin:No, not really. No, not really. But I think writers are worried about their career. I want to write this, I want to make a lot of money or whatever.Dave Rose:Yeah. Well, the money certainly an enjoyable part of it, but it's not the driving factor, and it can't be in music, so risky.Michael Jamin:But you also, I guess, arrange entertainment events,Dave Rose:Right? Oh, wow. Yeah, that's very, you did your homework. Yeah, so around the turn of the century, so I live in Raleigh, North Carolina. I'm in Nashville almost weekly, but I live in Raleigh, North Carolina, and in Raleigh, North Carolina, there are not a lot of artists management or record labels. It's a big, very creative music city, but there's not a lot of high level. So as Raleigh started to feel like they needed entertainment in their city and started thinking about amphitheaters and growth and expansion of their city, they kind of came to me saying, you've had artists play in these cities all over the country. Could you help us bring the good bad and the ugly of that to Raleigh and help us produce events? So yeah, over the past 20 years have become the kind of go-to, I produced the North Carolina State Fair and all the big festivals,Michael Jamin:But you keep it to this one region, though.Dave Rose:I do. I pretty much stay in the central, the Eastern North Carolina region. And it's funny because when bands go out on tour, I'm managing bands. I learned from Bruce Hornsby one time. I called him, I'd always check in after the show, and how did it go and whatever. And he went and played one show somewhere, and I said, how was the show? And he said, he kind of laughed while I said this, but he said, I was staring at a funnel cake sign the whole time. WhatMichael Jamin:Does that mean?Dave Rose:Funnel cakes? So you're playing this car almost like a carnival. Not that there's anything wrong with that, and there's plenty of respect in funnel cakes, but as an artist who played in the Grateful Dead Done Jazz records, not really his thing. So I kind of made a joke of always keep the funnel cake stand a little bit away from the stage, but I took all of this feedback from artists, what the backstage was like, what the stage was like, what the PA was like, what the lights were like. I took all the good, bad and the ugly from the artist, and I brought it back to my community to try to make the best concerts and events.Michael Jamin:I imagine there was a huge, not just a learning curve, but also financial risk in the beginning for you. No,Dave Rose:Yeah, I racked up a lot of credit cards.Michael Jamin:Oh, really? I mean,Dave Rose:Oh yeah.Michael Jamin:Wow.Dave Rose:Yeah. One of my, yeah, I sure did. We started this company on a credit card, and that's what got us going. We produced CDs on credit card. We racked up a lot of credit card debt hoping this would win.Michael Jamin:What do you, and it's paid off.Dave Rose:It's paid off,Michael Jamin:Right?Dave Rose:I paid it off last week.Michael Jamin:Just last week. You made a final payment, you got points for it. But what advice then, do you have for, I guess, new artists? I mean, maybe either musicians or, I dunno, artists.Dave Rose:Yeah. I think the hardest thing to do, particularly in this world of TikTok and YouTube and reels, is to really be authentically you, because it's so easy to want to try to be the person that just went viral,And that's never going to move the needle. That's never going to make a big splash. You might have a moment, I don't know if you remember, maybe three or four months ago, there was an artist on TikTok named Oliver Anthony that went massively viral. He is a bearded guy from the mountains and kind of just sang very, very pure songs, but went enormously huge. And within weeks, you've got every mountain guy with a beard trying to do the same thing. And it's really hard to not do that. When we're faced with that all the time, back in the day of Led Zeppelin, the Rolling Stones and everything else, one didn't really know what the other was doing.Michael Jamin:SoDave Rose:You went into your bubble and you created art in a way that you felt led to do, and now you're so pressured to try to be the next viral thing, and that's the hardest thing. So my advice is don't do that.Michael Jamin:Yeah. You also, it's funny because I am a fan of your tiktoks. You give such interesting, great advice. You gave one post, this was maybe half a year or maybe a year ago, I don't know. And I was like, yes, I wanted to stitch it, but I guess I just didn't have the balls. And then I forgot about it. The post you did was, I guess a lot of people come to you for advice, and they just think they can just, Hey, you pick your brain or buy you a cup of coffee cup as if your time is worth $5 an hour, because that's what coffee costs. But you handled it very gracefully and graciously, but I'm not sure. Did you get any blowback for it?Dave Rose:Yeah. You're on TikTok, the blowback key. I mean, you definitely get, but by and large, by and large, what I ended up getting is it's been beautiful actually. Ever since then, I've got a lot of artists coming to me saying, look, I'm not going to offer to buy you a cup of coffee. I know how you feel about that, but I would like 30 minutes of your time, and how would I go about doing that? That's a beautiful way, I mean, I really picked this up from an attorney one time, and I was on the three-Way call with an artist, an attorney, and myself, and the artist said to the attorney, Hey, I got this contract and I don't really have a lot of money to spend, but I was hoping you could read it over and I could buy you a cup of coffee and pick your brainMichael Jamin:On it. Yeah. What did the attorney say?Dave Rose:And the attorney said, look, I understand you mean well, but I only have two things to sell. I've got my time and my knowledge, and you have just asked for both of those things for free.Michael Jamin:Yes. That's a good way of saying it.Dave Rose:And I just thought, wow. That's right. And as a manager, that's what you have. You got your time, your knowledge, and your connections. And if you're picking my brain, you are asking for those things for free. And I don't have anything else to feed my family with, butMichael Jamin:I wonder, is it because, because people ask me the same thing, and I guess it's because some people are actually giving it to them for free. Do you thinkDave Rose:It is? Yeah. I mean, they must be, or otherwise they wouldn't be doing it, I guess.Michael Jamin:But then I wonder if you're only paying $5 for advice, and that advice is only worth $5, I mean, why would you want to take $5 advice?Dave Rose:Right, exactly. Yeah. But yeah, that's been a tough part of the music business because yeah, so thanks for noticing that. But I do think we, as a sort of service society, whether you're a screenwriter or whether you're a manager or an agent or whatever, all people really have is what's in their head and their time. And so to take that so lightly is to think that buying you lunch is going to somehow make it worthwhile. It just doesn't, not only doesn't make sense in a strange way, it's rude.Michael Jamin:Well, I don't think it's strange. I mean, I do think it's rude. Yeah, yeah.Dave Rose:But as I said, I think in that TikTok, I said, I understand you're offering to buy me something. So I understand that you're trying to be in your own way, polite, but let me just educate you. That's not a compliment to say that your time is worth a cup of coffee.Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah. But I appreciated that video. I really did. I was like, doDave Rose:You get a lot of people asking to pick your brain?Michael Jamin:Yes. I guess less and less, butDave Rose:You do some consulting as well, right?Michael Jamin:Well, what I did was eventually I signed up for, there's this app where you can sign up to be an expert. And so people ask me a question, sometimes it's an autoresponder, and it says, if you want to book time with Michael, you can do it. So here, a half a dozen people have booked. Everyone's asking, but no one books time. So to me, interesting. And I didn't do it because that's to make money, but I was like, well, look, if you want it, you're going to have to pay. But they don't want it bad enough to pay. So,Dave Rose:Well, it's interesting. I'm on a platform called August managers.io, and that's where I do my 30 minute consultations. And I've partially used it as a filter. It's funny, I'll get artists that go out and spend $10,000 on recording and $10,000 on video and photo shoots, and then they'll come to me and say, can I pick your brain for a cup of coffee? And I'm thinking, you have just spent $20,000 making music, and now the most important part, getting it out to the public, that's worth a cup of coffee to you. So I sort of use this platform as a filter. It's like Chemistry 1 0 1 in college. If you're willing to just invest a tiny bit to spend a little bit of time with a professional, I at least know you're serious.Michael Jamin:Yeah. That's how I see it as well. So you're weeding people out. They don't really want, yeah, I guess that's how unserious they are. If they're getting caught up on booking a half hour with me, then they don't really want,Dave Rose:I would think in your world, people want you to read their script, isMichael Jamin:That, oh, there's a lot of that, but you got to pay me way more than, I mean, here's the thing. I don't even do it, but they all want it. They want me to spend an hour and a half reading their script, another hour assembling notes, and then another hour on a phone call them giving them my notes while they get angry and defensive telling me why I'm wrong and do it for free. I mean, oh, yeah, okay. That sounds like a ball to me. But it's not about the money. The answer is no, all around. But it also exposes me to liability side because I don't want to be sued for taking someone's idea. SoDave Rose:Totally. I mean, that's a big part of the music business a lot. You'd hear about unsolicited music, and a lot of people, myself included, will not even open an email with music attached if I don't know who it is. Is itMichael Jamin:Because for liability reasons?Dave Rose:Yeah. TheyMichael Jamin:Think you're going to steal their sound or their song.Dave Rose:I think Yes. I think they do think that. And I think in the history of the music business, that has happened maybe three times. I mean, it just doesn't happen. Interesting. So it's funny that that's a topic even, I don't know if it happens in the film and TV business, but in the music business that anytime you've heard of a lawsuit of one suing the other about a sound, it's very, very rarely actual theft. Most often, there's only eight chords, and you can arrange them in only so many ways. And if you're in a genre like hip hop or country where it's in some ways a little bit of a formula in the way your pop music is that way, you write very narrow melodies and chord progressions. It's bound to your, I mean, about the a hundred thousand songs released a day, you're bound to cross paths there in a close manner. It's very rarely malicious.Michael Jamin:So then how are you listening to new music, if at all? Is it because you see an act on stage or something?Dave Rose:Yeah, no, I will listen to it if it's coming to me from a vetted source or if it's coming to me in a way that I feel. But I get a lot of just very blind emails, never met, seen, heard of the person. And one of my favorite quotes was Gene Simmons said one time, look, if I'm hearing about you for the first time from you, you're not ready.Michael Jamin:You're not ready. Interesting.Dave Rose:Because we keep our ears to the ground. I mean, I'm hearing about artists all the time. I mean, I can't go to the dentist without hearing about five new artists. People know that we work in the music business. So no matter where I go, the coffee shop, the dentist, the pizza shop, whatever, they're going to tell me about their cousin that just released a song. That's the next Beatles. So I hear about stuff, and if I hear about it from 7, 8, 9 different places, I start to know there's something there.Michael Jamin:Right. I directed Gene Simmons, by the way, on an animated show. I had to yell. NoDave Rose:Way.Michael Jamin:Well, yeah. Well, he came into the studio like a rockstar, which is what he is, of course. And then he is holding court and, Hey, dude, we're paying for this thing. And I knew I was going to get yelled at by my boss, so I had to say, Hey, gene, we're recording now. I had to tell shot him, get onto the microphone.Dave Rose:Oh, that's awesome. He is a really interesting person. I've met him a couple of times. I really am amazed by his story.Michael Jamin:That's funny. Chrissy Hy came in. My partner had to direct Chrissy, and she came in also like a rockstar into the booth, and she's smoking a cigarette and you're not supposed to with the equipment. And he asked her to put it out, and she wouldn't. And he was like, that's fine with me. Whatcha going to do?Dave Rose:I love it. She'sMichael Jamin:Chrissy Hein. She gets to do what she wants. But that's so interesting. Yeah. I get that same sometimes when people ask me a question and I wonder if you feel the same way about breaking into the business or some kind of basic thing. They leave a comment and I'm like, all you got to do is just scroll down and all my videos are labeled. You're going to find it. I wonder how bad you want it. If you feel like you have to ask me without looking. This is literally the least you have to do to find an answer nowadays.Dave Rose:I did a video recently where one of the most common questions I get is, somebody will present their music to me and they'll say, do you think I have what it takes to make it? And that is without question, the hardest question to answer because I don't know your definition of make it. And to be honest, a lot of people don't know their definition of make it. I had a band come into my office one time, they finally, they've been wanting to line up a meeting. They came in and they said, I said, so what do you guys want to do? What are you hoping to do? And they said, well, we want to be successful. You know what I mean? And I said, well, no, I don't know what you mean. Tell me what success means to you. And they said, well, we want to make a living at music.I said, well, that's good. I can have you doing that within 30 days. And they kind of looked at me like, wow. We hit the jackpot coming to this meeting, and I said, here's what we're going to do. We're going to buy you a bunch of tuxedos. You're going to learn some top 40 songs. We're going to play the wedding and corporate cover circuit, make a great living. They kind of looked at you and they were like, no, that's not what we meant. Okay, let me change that answer. We want to make a living playing our music. I said, alright. Little bit harder to do, but we can still do it. There's sports bars around the country where you set up in the corner and they don't really care what you play, your background music, but you make a pretty decent living. You'll make good tips.We're like, no, no. Lemme think about this. They thought about it for a little bit more and they said, okay, we got it. We want to be on the radio. Then one other guy spoke up and he said, playing our music. I said, okay, I got you, my friend does the Sunday night local show on the radio station. He's a friend of mine. He'll play anything I send him. I'll send him your song, he'll play it on Sunday. You will have been successful. And they like, all right. And one guy spoke up at that point and he said, I see what you're trying to do. You're trying to confuse us. I said, no, no, no. You're quite confused on your own I'm trying to do is point out that I can't help you until you know what you want. And there's no wrong answer to that. Some artists come to me and say, I want world domination. I want to be the next big, huge thing. And others simply say, I just want to make great music and I don't really care if I make a living. I just want good quality music out there.Michael Jamin:Is that right?Dave Rose:Oh yeah. PeopleMichael Jamin:Really do. But I imagine, I mean, you got to pay your bills. That's not attractive to you. Right?Dave Rose:It's not attractive to me and that's okay, but there's still a place for that in this world. But yeah, and here's the other thing. A lot of people think they want that world domination and playing arenas, but the moment we start saying things like, well, let's say a country artist came to me and they said, I want to be the biggest country star in the world. First thing out of my mouth would be, you're going to need to move to Nashville. You don't need to do that in every genre, but in country, that's a must be present To Win town, you're going to have to be in Nashville. Well, I don't really want to do that. I got this and a job and whatever. So I tell people all the time, prioritize where music is in your life. It doesn't have to be number one, but just knowing where it is will help you make decisions on what's most important. When I give advice to artists, I often ask them, do you have kids and are you married? And tell me about your personal life. The truth is, the advice I give to someone with a two month old baby at home is different than a single 21-year-old that can go out and explore the world.Michael Jamin:What do you think it is that people like me, Hollywood, what do I get? What do we get wrong about the music industry when we portray it on TV and film?Dave Rose:Oh wow. Well, it's funny because in every music based show, I used to watch the show Nashville, which was produced very well, and it was done in Nashville, so it had a lot of authenticity to it. But I think what I don't think you get it wrong, I think you have to portray it this way because that's the way TV is made. But you can go from in one episode writing a song to going on tour with Bon Jovi all within a week or two's time, what seems like a week or two's time in a film or TV show. And it's a laborious, long as you know from any aspect of entertainment, it's years before you start to take off from that runway. It's a several year runway, but I think the public as a result of just all of our short attention spans shows and even movies have to be written. So that what seems like in a couple of months, couple of weeks, sometimes you go from writing this song to touring with Beyonce.Michael Jamin:Why do you think, and I say this selfishly, I want to know for myself, why do you think the runways is so long before you take off? Why does that mean, why does it take so long?Dave Rose:Well, I think a lot of it is because writing music, like writing anything takes a lot of hours to get good at it.Michael Jamin:Okay, but let's say you got your album out and it's a great album now it's going to take years beforeDave Rose:No, no, no, no, no. It's going to take years to get that greatMichael Jamin:Album. Right. Okay.Dave Rose:Right. Once that great album is assembled and together, it can be a relatively, I mean, it can be a relatively short runway to success once that great in Nashville, there's a saying when somebody comes into me with a publisher and a publisher is someone who oversees the copyrights of songs, but when someone comes to me with a publisher and they say, how many songs have you written? No matter what the answer is, they almost always say, come back when you've written your next a hundred. Really, there's kind of an unwritten seven year rule in Nashville. You should not expect success for at least seven years after you come to townMichael Jamin:With your first album,Dave Rose:With your first set of releases. It just takes that long to get really, really top level good at this in any genre. I think, I mean, if there was a comment section on this podcast, there would be tons of people giving me the exceptions to those rules right now, which is the beauty of the music business or any entertainment. There's exceptions to that rule. There's overnight sensations, but by and large, most of the big artists had a long runway.Michael Jamin:So you're listening, if you were listening to an album by a new artist, you're thinking, okay, maybe one or two songs has got something in the rest are just not there. You're sayingDave Rose:Sometimes. Yeah, sometimes. I mean, you take a band, it's funny, that first hit, I worked with Sex and Candy, the band, Marcy Playground, between the time they rode and recorded that and it became a number one hit was four years.Michael Jamin:Okay,Dave Rose:Four years.Michael Jamin:Right. Okay. So they had the goods, but it took four years before people discovered they had the goods.Dave Rose:That's right. That was a very interesting journey. They charted on college radio and then they tried to work to regular radio. It didn't happen, and they label problems and they tried again and it finally happened. Same thing with this band, sixpence On The Richer and the song Kiss Me. They had that song Kiss Me on a Record, and it did not become a hit for another two years.Michael Jamin:Wow. Okay. So then how do they do that? Is it just touring? Is it just getting it out there? Just having people listen,Dave Rose:In the nineties it was touring. It was just getting out there and touringMichael Jamin:Even. Not today. You're saying today's it's not like that today.Dave Rose:It's not. I mean, it's some touring is one aspect of it, but the beauty of Michael, you and I would not be here talking if it were not for TikTok. And as much as I love to hate on social media platforms for all the reasons they're easy to hate on there is I tell our assist all the time. There is someone in Topeka, Kansas right now that loves what you do. You just got to find them. And if you do, there'll be fans for life. But unless you plan on touring Topeka, Kansas this week, you're not going to find 'em. So get online and postMichael Jamin:How many, I've heard numbers and I if it's true, but how many crazy, what's the word, rabid fans, do you need think a band needs before they hit critical mass?Dave Rose:Well, critical mass is a subjective term, but I say this a lot. You only need a thousand fans. And I'm talking about real fans. Fans that would give the shirt off their back fans. I'm not talking about followers,Michael Jamin:I'm notDave Rose:Talking about likes or subscribes,Michael Jamin:Right? People who open their wallet,Dave Rose:A thousand fans that consume everything you put out. That's all you need to make a great living in music.Michael Jamin:But how is that possible? Okay, so if you've had a thousand fans, they're scattered all across the country and I don't understand, how does that make you a good living? You can put it on a new album to a thousand fans. How does that make you a living?Dave Rose:I'll tell you how that is because when I was 10 years old, I had a older cousin, cousin Rick and I went to his house and he had a wall of vinyl records, more vinyl records than you could ever imagine. And he reached and he had got a new stereo and he wanted to show me the stereo, and he pulled up a Boston record, the classic rock band Boston. They had just put out their first record and he put it on the turntable and he was telling me everything he needed to tell me about Boston, and I was just mostly fascinated by the fact that of a thousand records on his wall, he picked that one to tell me about it. And from there I went and bought the record. I consumed, I bought the T-shirts, I bought this. The thing about a thousand fans is they're your marketing arms. A thousand fans are not going to keep your music close to their chest and keep it over here in the corner. They're going to tell everybody that'll possibly listen. And if you've got a fan that it gets in the car with their friends and they got three minutes to the next drive and a billion songs to choose from, they're going to choose yours. And that's going to turn those fans, those friends into fans. So it starts with a thousand core fans and you can really take over the world.Michael Jamin:I wonder, and again, I say this selfishly, I put out a book, and so this is the first venture. I've done solo

On this week's episode, I have Writer/Executive Producer, Jonathan Collier (Bones, The Simpsons, King of the Hill, Monk, and many many more) and we dive into the origins of his career. We also talk about his side hustle and how that came about! Tune in as we have so much more.Show NotesJonathan Collier on X: https://twitter.com/collierjonathan Jonathan Collier IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0171927/Jonathan Collier on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_CollierA Paper Orchestra on Website: - https://michaeljamin.com/bookA Paper Orchestra on Audible: - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptJonathan Collier:It was after season eight, and I thought they were trying to get me to go to King of the Hill, and I had whatever, I had the chance to stay at Simpson's. And I thought, well, there's no way it goes past season 10.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Or any show goes past season 10.Jonathan Collier:It just doesn't happen. And so I left. I thought, I kind of felt badly leaving, but I thought, what's much better? Do you want to show with some like in itMichael Jamin:You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase. And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.All right, everyone, welcome back to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? My next guest is an old colleague of mine, old friend from my days on King of the Hill before I let him talk his name's John Coly or welcome to the show, but let me tell you what he's done. The Sky's credits are pretty incredible. So you sit back and relax. Lemme tell you what he's done. So he wrote on The Simpsons. Okay, we've heard of that show and I'm only giving some of the highlights, some of the highlights, some Scooby dos, which I did not know. King of the Hill Monk, the Good Family Bones, the Good Cop Law and Order. I mean, this guy has done well. He's done a lot. But thank you so much, man, for doing the show.Jonathan Collier:Oh, it's a pleasure, Michael. Thank you for having me.Michael Jamin:Let me tell you about who you are because I remember very clearly walking to my, on my way to my office on King of the Hill. Yours was, I would always walk past you and I would often stop and say hello. Or sometimes I would just sit and you always had a big smile. You're always so happy to greet me and have me there. And I never felt like I was getting in the way you Yeah, come on in. Come on. You're always very kind.Jonathan Collier:I am endlessly in search of distractions.Michael Jamin:Well, I do remember walking past you on days when you're on script and just looking miserable. IJonathan Collier:Am. Thank you. Nope, that's exactly it. Well observed. I am never more miserable than I am alone in writing.Michael Jamin:But why is that? Do you feel?Jonathan Collier:Oh, it's a horrible thing to do. TV writing is one of the most fun, engaging, productive things you can do if you're with other people. And I love that part of it. And the small portion of the job that relies on you being alone entails, I should say, you being alone and actually writing something without people around is misery for me.Michael Jamin:But is it the comedy part? You also do drama now? Which one is harder?Jonathan Collier:Comedy is harder.Michael Jamin:Okay. But yeah, I would agree with that as well. But is it miserable to write drama as well?Jonathan Collier:I find the process of keeping stuff alive and interesting and propulsive is really, really hard.Michael Jamin:And how do know? You know when it's alive?Jonathan Collier:What, sorry?Michael Jamin:How do you know?Jonathan Collier:How do I know when it's right?Michael Jamin:Yeah. How do you know?Jonathan Collier:Part of what makes it so miserable is you can always second guess yourself. And even more so when there's jokes involved.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Well, for jokes for sure. And what was that transition like for you? I'm amazed that anyone can do it.Jonathan Collier:Oh, I got very lucky. What happened was that King of the Hill was, we got canceled. You remember? It was time. The show got canceled. It was canceled two times.Michael Jamin:We left after the first time.Jonathan Collier:Yeah, left. So it got canceled. And I really realized it was for real when they started moving our furniture out of the officeMichael Jamin:Because you were going to squat there.Jonathan Collier:I had every intention of squatting.Michael Jamin:You thought it was all Big bluff until they moved at the furniture.Jonathan Collier:And so that was happening. And I had done comedy for about 17 years at that point. And I didn't love doing for camera comedy. I liked doing animation and there were no real single camera comics, comedies on the air at the time, and I didn't quite know what to do, but I knew I stopped watching comedies. I kind of could feel the sweat on them and the work on them because I worked in so many comedy rooms. And I got really lucky, which is that Andy Breckman, who was running Monk at the time, who created the show, he used to have three guest writers come in every season. And he did that because he felt like he kept him on track. If you came in as a guest to the room in New York, it made him concentrate and work harder and make sure that in five days you would break a story.Michael Jamin:Why? Because people flew in, you mean?Jonathan Collier:Yeah, because the network would fly, the studio would fly you into New York and put you up and they would only keep you there for five days.Michael Jamin:Okay, that's interesting.Jonathan Collier:I got one of those. So I got one of those guest shots. And the other thing I got way I got lucky wasMichael Jamin:Wait, but how did you get that guest shot?Jonathan Collier:I got that guest shot because this is embarrassing. My agent at the time who I didn't think was doing enough for me, got me a meeting with Andy Breckman, and I thought it was just one meeting with Andy Breckman, who's a great guy, and I love the show, but who knows if it's going to turn into anything. I fired my agent, moved on to another agent, and then Andy called me up and said, oh, we want you to do this episode a month.Michael Jamin:Right.Jonathan Collier:But there was no,Michael Jamin:But I've already fired my agent.Jonathan Collier:That was done. What happened was that, anyway, Andy used to only hire comedy writers to do guest episodes.Michael Jamin:Why?Jonathan Collier:Because his theory was that he could teach a comedy writer how to write a procedural. He could not teach a procedural writer how to be fun. So anyway, they flew into New York, I was in the room, we broke a story and I wrote it and it went well. The whole thing went well, and I got very lucky again because no one had ever really left the show or been added to it. This was the fourth season and one writer was leaving and Andy offered me the job. So I came in and went on staff the next season.Michael Jamin:How many seasons did you do there?Jonathan Collier:I did two more seasons and then the writer's strike of 2007 happened. And when that happened, I didn't know how long that would go on. Mike and the Good Family was starting up and they got what was called a strike waiver, and there were certain production companies and one was MRC, media Rights Capital, and they made a deal with the WGA, with the Writers Guild that they could do shows that were during the strike and it would not be strike breaking to work on those shows if they agreed to abide by the Wgas terms, the writer's terms. The WGA was using that as a tactic to try to force the studios to,Michael Jamin:And it's funny, they didn't really do that this last strike.Jonathan Collier:No, I don't think it really helped.Michael Jamin:You don't think it helped?Jonathan Collier:I don't know if it did or actually, no, I can't say if it did or not. I thought all I can say is I think this last strike was better run than the first one. I think a lot was learned from the first one. Anyway, I left Monk because I got a job right away rather than being strike.Michael Jamin:Right. Let me ask you that. When you're on Monk and you are with procedural writers who are not comedy writers, when they would pitch something that you and I would call a clam, or if you would pitch it in the room at the Simpson, the King of the Hill, someone would say, right? Was there a lot of that going on? Were you the guy who said, yeah, that's not really a joke?Jonathan Collier:Well, no. At Mon though, you had, first of all, it was comedy writers. It was a small staff and it was four people whose background was comedy, including Andy Breckman, and then one High Conrad, who was just a terrific mystery writer. And he had written something like 200 mystery books. Oh,Michael Jamin:Wow.Jonathan Collier:And the way he got on was that Andy met with him and took him out for lunch and said, look, I love your mystery books, and you have two choices. One is you come on staff or two was I'm just going to steal all your plots anyway.Michael Jamin:Oh wow.Jonathan Collier:Hi was on whatever came on staff, and he was on UNK for the whole run. And then he was on The Good Cop with Me Too. It was on, that was another Andy Breckman show.Michael Jamin:Right. It's so interesting. And to what did you think of that world? I mean, compared to comedy?Jonathan Collier:Well, it was a really kind of easy, delicate transition because it was a mystery show once again, written by comedy writers.Michael Jamin:Writers. It was light. It was fun.Jonathan Collier:Yeah. A procedural written by non-com writers would've been a tougher adjustment for me.Michael Jamin:But even the procedural explain to me and everyone else, how do you write a procedural?Jonathan Collier:I think there's many different ways to write a procedural. The way I write a procedural is what really happened comes first.Michael Jamin:What really happens comes first. What does that mean?Jonathan Collier:Okay. What you have to think of is what was our crime? What's the procedure about? What are we investigating?Michael Jamin:Okay, so give me an example.Jonathan Collier:It's not a medical procedural. This is a criminal procedural. I'm talkingMichael Jamin:About, okay, so someone's dead,Jonathan Collier:Someone is dead. And then you have all sorts of questions you can ask that can form the basis for an episode. You can say, oh, is it an accident? Is it a suicide? Is it a murder? If it is a murder, or who did it? Why did they do it? Who could have done it? There any number of, is it an open book where the audience knows what happened? Is it a closed book where the audience doesn't know and learns along with our investigators?Michael Jamin:Did you basically do both?Jonathan Collier:Monk did both opened and closed book. And Monk also did a combination of who done, its who was the killer, why done, its, we know who the killer is, but why on earth would they kill someone? And that's how we can prove they did it. And how done its, it's an incredibly, it's a locked room mystery, for instance, where someone was killed inside the locked room, how did the killer get in there and doMichael Jamin:It? Interesting. HadJonathan Collier:To figure out how the crime was done.Michael Jamin:And so these words are so funny. So as you were breaking the story, you'd break 'em in the room with all the writers, I assume, right? And then throw out ideas, and then someone would say, okay, but let's do this, make it a wide, let's make it a wide done at this week. Is that what it is?Jonathan Collier:Well, I think we'd look at the killing and say, what's a really, really ingenious killing? We could do?Michael Jamin:Okay.Jonathan Collier:Say, okay, let's look at the motive. And then we'd say, last, you'd spend probably say you were breaking a story over the course. If it was just us, we probably spent seven to eight days breaking a story. We weren't having a guest writer in. And the first three or four days probably spent just figuring out how the crime was done and why really gettingMichael Jamin:It seems very hard to me. This seems very hard to me.Jonathan Collier:For me, it was somewhat natural way to do it because it was really fun. And for some, I feel like I was using my comedy muscles, even my plotting muscles to figure out why you did it. And then you work backwards once, and this is just us. Other shows do it different ways. There's probably a million different ways to do it.Michael Jamin:Okay. But you start work backwards. So first you decide if it's going to be a who, what or why is that what it's,Jonathan Collier:First of all, first of all, you can't figure out who kills who and why, who killed who, who kills who. How do they do it, why do they do it, where do they do it? All those things. Then you figure out how do we solve it? And for a show like Monk, he'd also say, well, I have someone who has OCD. I have someone who was painfully shy as someone who was any number of traumas in his life. Also a comic character who happens to be the saddest person on television, and he has a tragedy to his life. And what's the world I can put him in to make him the most uncomfortable?Michael Jamin:Right? And that's how you begin. That's where you start. That'sJonathan Collier:Often where, that's often where the fun of it comes from. The comedy is from seeing him in the world where he's uncomfortable, because comedy is all about discomfort. The emotional story would often come from how he will relate to the world and what it would bring up in his own life. And then the procedural story is how you solve the crime.Michael Jamin:YouJonathan Collier:Go ahead. Sorry.Michael Jamin:No, no, go ahead.Jonathan Collier:The way one could look at it is for us on that show, the procedural story was almost with the armature. It's what you would call the plot, I guess. And the real story was the emotional story that was threaded through the plot.Michael Jamin:Right, of course.Jonathan Collier:And the two of them dovetail and one comment on the other, like a musical comedy, for instance, where songs are the twists, they provide the transition points in the story. You could say the emotional twists or the procedural twists would provide a transition point for each other.Michael Jamin:It still sounds very hard to me. Does it get easier?Jonathan Collier:Well, I think it probably sounds hard because I'm probably overcomplicating it.Michael Jamin:Well, not really, because you're solving, because see, and I are thinking of writing a procedural, and so we're watching some, and I'm like, I don't know. I don't think I know how to do this.Jonathan Collier:Oh, I'll help you with it.Michael Jamin:Oh, good. You're hired.Jonathan Collier:It is not that hard because it's actually easier I found than writing an episode of King of a Hill where someone buys a new hat and it changes their life and life. You have to make a whole story out of that.Michael Jamin:Right. But you still have to figure out, it's a mystery. You're solving a crime and you have to make it so it's smart. I mean, I've watched other ones where they throw in a clue just when you need it, oh good, I dug a new clue so I can figure out another scene.Jonathan Collier:And there's shows that do that. And there's shows that I like, if you don't get a show like Merab Town,Michael Jamin:Right? I haven'tJonathan Collier:Seen it. Okay. That's real lies procedural. And what you realize is it is not about solving the crime. I mean, it's all the crime, but it is really about the emotional drama that's happening. And the crime is, once again, is almost the backdropMichael Jamin:For it. But to me, that's what makes it so that's why I want to get rid of the crime. Can we just focus on the relationship between the mother and the daughter that I get?Jonathan Collier:And the one I thought does comment on the other, and they're both of us family, and I felt like that show worked pretty well. It's very much not a show that I would know how to do.Michael Jamin:Well, and that takes me to law and your latest, but Okay, bones, and let's talk about what you're doing now. That's very different. Law and order.Jonathan Collier:Well, I'm not doing Law and Order now. I stopped after last season.Michael Jamin:Oh, you did? Okay. But that must be very procedural. I mean, procedural.Jonathan Collier:Procedural, very procedural, very different beast. I mean, it was a challenge to figure it out, but I think I'm much more comfortable in this space where there's more character involved.Michael Jamin:Yeah, right. I would thinkJonathan Collier:The part I like best is where I've been most comfortable and enjoyed the most is character driven procedurals.Michael Jamin:Right. Which is kind of like what USA does, right?Jonathan Collier:Well, back when they existed,Michael Jamin:Back when they were doing it.Jonathan Collier:So no, in other shows, there's been a lot of character-based procedurals on TV over the years, and that's what Bones was. Keone was a character-based procedural.Michael Jamin:And you were the showrunner that you were the executive producer?Jonathan Collier:I was the showrunner for a while, yes.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And that was the first time. Was that the first time you ran a show or no?Jonathan Collier:No. I've run another show on the CW called As IfMichael Jamin:Before. Oh. But this is the, I still would imagine now that you're the boss of a procedural, I don't know. I need help. So it seems so hard to me. Wellm hung up on that.Jonathan Collier:I took over a show that was already working veryMichael Jamin:Well.Jonathan Collier:Har Hansen, who created, it was a hundred yards away on the Fox lot in his office. I could always go running to him for help if I neededMichael Jamin:It. Right. And you had the same staff,Jonathan Collier:Sorry.Michael Jamin:And you had the staff, the previous same staff.Jonathan Collier:We had much of the same staff. And I had a co-Ho Runner, Michael Peterson, who was terrific. And I had Steven Nathan, who I took over the show from and only left because I was still a very close friend, and I could call him up whenever I needed to.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Jonathan Collier:I think starting from scratch is always much harder, or walking into a situation not immediately comfortable is always much harder too.Michael Jamin:But now that you've, I see this as opening a lot of doors for you. Has it? Because now you have two genres under your belt.Jonathan Collier:Yes and no. It's always hard. I mean, you have to always be out there in whatever writing. And there's a limited number of jobs that a lot of people want to do, and the people who want to do those jobs tend to be, when you think of it, just in terms of being practical, it's a great profession when you're doing it. But it's one of the stupidest professions to try to do because your competition is really smart, really talented, really talented, really inspired, really wants to do it and works really hard. There's a lot of businesses that aren't like thatMichael Jamin:You are listening to. What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timbral. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirks Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book. Go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book. And now back to our show.How do you know, were you in a lot of businesses?Jonathan Collier:I have a side business.Michael Jamin:What is your side business? Is it you rent folding shows for parties?Jonathan Collier:Well, no. I actually do multifamily housing.Michael Jamin:Wait. Oh, I knew about this. Right.Jonathan Collier:And believe me, my competition in multifamily housing will be damned if they want to spend 80 bucks to fix the toilet the right way.Michael Jamin:Now, do you build or you refurbish? What does that mean?Jonathan Collier:I do it with a partner who's also a writer, and we refurbish and build and rent.Michael Jamin:And Is it in LA or all over the country?Jonathan Collier:It's in Los Angeles.Michael Jamin:This is amazing. I remember, but I don't know. That's a whole different skillset. Who told you you were qualified to do that?Jonathan Collier:I think we always revert back to who we are,Michael Jamin:Which was, you were always a real estate mogul in the beginning.Jonathan Collier:Oh, I'm not a mogul by any means. We're mom and pop level of multifamily housing, but whatever. My family had small family businesses probably going back to the Middle Ages and they were butchers and bakers and ran a little in, did all those things. And that's where I immediately felt comfortable doing this.Michael Jamin:Really. Was it your idea to get into, how did that idea come up?Jonathan Collier:That came up during the 2007 strike also?Michael Jamin:Yeah, everything comes up during the strike when you're out of work.Jonathan Collier:So you're out of work, you're walking around with a picket sign. Yeah. I was thinking, wait a second. I'm walking around with a picket sign with a lot of angry, middle-aged guys. We're all mad at their fathers and taking it out in the studio.Michael Jamin:Okay,Jonathan Collier:We are at the mercy. We're putting yourself in a position where we're walking around with a sign waiting for a giant multinational corporation to pay us a lot of money to do something that we frankly love to do. And I'm not really in control of my faith here.Michael Jamin:No, we're not.Jonathan Collier:And so that's where my partner and I decided to do it. And then fortunately for us, I know what happened. I talked about it and I started talking about it with one of my daughter's, babysitters.Michael Jamin:How many babysitters does she have?Jonathan Collier:We had a hundred babysitters, a hundred best babysitters in all of LosMichael Jamin:Angeles. She required a lot of babysitters. Okay,Jonathan Collier:Whatever. When we go out, we'd have whatever, five people we call, whatever. And I've all come over at once. This woman was actually getting, I talked to her about it because while she was babysitting for us, she was getting her real estate license.Michael Jamin:Okay. Wow.Jonathan Collier:And so she called me up and said, I have a building for you, and it is a really good deal, and Washington Mutual Bank is trying to unload it really fast. This is now 2008 or so, and the whole real estate market's falling apart.Michael Jamin:And how many units is this building approximately?Jonathan Collier:This building has five units.Michael Jamin:Okay. So it's small. WeJonathan Collier:Did not know what we were doing, but we went and looked at it. We bought it.Michael Jamin:Okay. We had to make a company first. You had to do all the legal stuff.Jonathan Collier:Yeah. We formed what's called an LLC. We talked to a lawyer who was a cousin of someone, and they told us what to do.Michael Jamin:Real estate. As it turned out, a brilliant idea. It was probably the best idea you've ever had in la.Jonathan Collier:It was a very, very lucky time to do it. And so people, I found once again, like I was saying earlier, my competition in real estate was not as talented or hardworking or smart as my competition in television writing, but they were a lot luckier. And just by the strange confluence of events where interest rates went down and the economy started to pick up eventually, we all just by good fortune, by luck, it worked out well. It worked. Yeah.Michael Jamin:This is important because as you mentioned, nothing is guaranteed as a writer, nothing is guaranteed. And so to have something on the side is really helpful. Gives you some breathing. I highlyJonathan Collier:Recommend to people. I always tell whatever, when I talk to actors, I'm always thrilled when I hear that they're writing, even though they tend to be very good writers, and I don't like that. Or when they're doing something, when they're going to law school, when they're doing anything else, it's just nice to have a backup. It helps you sleep better at night.Michael Jamin:It does. Yeah, it really does. What's that?Jonathan Collier:You have your podcast.Michael Jamin:This is my empire, as you see. There youJonathan Collier:Go.Michael Jamin:Yeah. My media empire. Now, you wrote an episode of King of the Hill, because when I talk about King of the Hill, and this is 20 years ago, we were doing it. One episode people often bring up to me is Bobby is the Pygmalion episode, which you wrote.Jonathan Collier:Oh,Michael Jamin:People want to know about that. And we were just joining the show at that time. I'mJonathan Collier:Glad to hear that. I still think about that episode actually, when I said, I hate writing alone. I don't hate all of writing alone. I love the last two or three days of writing alone, punching up. I feel like face with a blank page. And once I've kind of taken a sledgehammer and beaten that script into shape, actually turning it from serviceable to good is actually fun. That part of it. And I remember the last three days or so on that script were really fun.Michael Jamin:But how did it, I mean, that was a departure. I mean, everyone there said, this is the departure. This is the episode, which ended in a really dark place.Jonathan Collier:It was a gothic thriller.Michael Jamin:How did you sell it to Greg? To the staff? I dunno if he was running the show then How did you sell? It was there. It was a departure.Jonathan Collier:Greg was there, so Greg was still there. I don't know if he was officially running the show, but he was there. Greg had to approve everything. He was basically, and Greg, God bless him. Not only did he embrace the gothic nature of it, but he pushed it even more. And some of the really strong gothic elements like killing.Michael Jamin:Yeah. The guy died at the endJonathan Collier:Who loved. I think that may have been Greg's idea.Michael Jamin:Was there a moment though, when you go, wait a minute. Are you sure that this doesn't seem like the tone of the show? I mean, it's mostly Hank watering his lawn.Jonathan Collier:Oh, no. Once we were going to do it, I was off full speed ahead. I wanted to embrace it also. Now, there were other people there at the time. It was a big staff and whatever. Everyone had valid opinions or people who did not embrace it the way that they were entitled to that. But I think we pretty much got the episode we wanted up on the screen forMichael Jamin:Sure, man. I mean, that got some big, I remember watching the Color in the animation. We watched the color in the Room. That's a big, it was like, whoa.Jonathan Collier:Yeah. There were very large twists and turns. Yeah. It is always really fun to push a genre.Michael Jamin:It isJonathan Collier:Carefully, closely observed family comedy and turned it into a large scale gothic drill.Michael Jamin:I had a conversation with Dave Krinsky. He ran the show at one point that, and the funny thing is, because people on social media, they're still watching King of the Hill. I haven't watched it since we were on it, because that's it. You leave it alone, you're onto the next show, and people really remember it. They remember it. They want to talk about it. And I'm like, I'm sorry. I don't really remember this episode. And Krinsky felt the same way, and he ran it. It's like, I don't really remember this. Do you remember everything? Oh, no. No. It's interesting that I think people have this expectation of the writers that we should still be living in it and we can't because we have to move on to whatever else we're writing.Jonathan Collier:Yeah. No, you only have so much room in yourMichael Jamin:Head. Yeah.Jonathan Collier:I mean, part of it is we're too busy hanging on every grudge and slight and moment of shame in our lives to use in our comedy.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Well, okay, so I know you don't have too much time, but what do you writing? What do you want to write next? Do you want to write procedural comedy? What do you want to do? IJonathan Collier:Really like the procedural space. I'm working on a procedural right now with a terrific writer who I was on bones withMichael Jamin:To sell as a pitch.Jonathan Collier:Yeah,Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. Well, that makes sense. I mean, and given your track record, I would assume it'd probably be easier for you to sell a procedural. I don't know. There, no,Jonathan Collier:I have no idea. We are in an odd market, so we'll see.Michael Jamin:What do you know about the market? I hear just from talking to other writers, I don't think anybody really know. What do you know about the market?Jonathan Collier:Oh, nothing. I know what I read in the trades. I know what I read in Deadline Hollywood.Michael Jamin:And by that you mean what's getting picked up?Jonathan Collier:Yeah, I know what everyone else knows. I have no information. I do know anecdotally, my friends at least have had trouble selling things.Michael Jamin:They're having trouble selling right now. That's what I'm telling them, because they don't know how much money they have. Yeah.Jonathan Collier:It is an inflection point in the business, and there's been periodic inflection points, whatever, where it's pointed in one direction or another, but no one really knows what they mean while you're in them.Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah. It's so, so smart about real estate. I'm still hung up on that, and I know this is not a podcast about that, but in a way it is. It's a podcast about having your fingers in many whatever it is, pots or something. Pies. What is it? I don't know what the expression is.Jonathan Collier:It is generally pies.Michael Jamin:Is it? What about a pot pie, like a chicken pot pie? It's generally pies, you said, man. So, okay. So that's kind of what you're taking out there is you're working on, and how often do you meet and do you work on it?Jonathan Collier:Oh, we meet every day really? More or less every day. I like to work for about three or four hoursMichael Jamin:In person. You meet?Jonathan Collier:No, we work on Zoom. And I don't like Zoom rooms, and I've been in some of those, but I like working with just one writer on Zoom, if you know them Well, it's fun. I mean, I found that in a regular room, and I'm sure people have told you this on your podcast and otherwise that, especially when you're No anything character based, any show, if it is not character based, the fun of it really is. And a lot of the creativity comes from what's not going on in the room. It comes from walking to lunch. It comes from Brow Cup coffee. It comes from killing time doing something else on the lot or your office. And that's when the ideas kind of come out of you. And you don't get that on Zoom.Michael Jamin:No, you don't. I wonder. Yeah. So was never Back. The rooms never got back. The last show I was on, it was still Zoom. Have you gone back in person?Jonathan Collier:No.Michael Jamin:No. Isn't that weird?Jonathan Collier:Really? I mean, I helped out, I did some punch up on a movie, and that was in person and on some punch up on an HBO series. Really? That didn't go, but that was whatever, a mini room. And those were both in person, but they were small and they were limited duration. So like a full functioning show in person. I have not done since theMichael Jamin:Pandemic. I wonder. Yeah, I wonder. They're just trying to save money. I don't think they're about saving lives. I think it's about saving money.Jonathan Collier:I think they're saving money. I think that sometimes one thing they found during Zoom is you get to writers in different cities. And so if you have writers in different cities to even the playing field, whatever, everyone's on Zoom rather than someone being in New York and someone being in Seattle and someone being in Los Angeles. But I certainly enjoy and benefit from the physical presence of other writers. It's hard enough to do it much easier and more fun when you're with other people.Michael Jamin:For me,Jonathan Collier:I have worked with writers who love being alone doing it. They have an entirely different experience and approach to it.Michael Jamin:Well, a lot of it's about the commute to work. You're probably central.Jonathan Collier:I'm fairly central, but I know people who actually, they don't want to be in a room. I've worked with wonderful writers who would much prefer to be alone and knock it out.Michael Jamin:Do you like going, working on set? Do you like being on set?Jonathan Collier:Yeah, I do. I mean, I think it depends. Every set has its own character politics, and it's not particularly fun being on set if you have a difficult lead or whatever, if there's something going on there or if there's tension between the stars or if there's, there's any number of ways you can have tension on the set. By and large, I've been very lucky. They've been good sets, and it's been fun. And also, it's the last step and whatever. One thing you realize on the set is when you spend significant time on the set, you realize how many people are really offering the show that you may have ridden,Michael Jamin:That you may have, I'm sorry, what?Jonathan Collier:Your name is on a script, but everyone on that set, hair and makeup, your whatever, your director, everyone has your camera operators. They're all helping create that show.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Jonathan Collier:Writers in their own way, and they're adding elements to it.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And I know I have to ask this because we have so many fans of The Simpsons, but what was that whole experience like for you? Because you were there in the early days?Jonathan Collier:Fairly early days. It was really, first of all, it was a huge break in my career that was good for me. I didn't have my first child until very late in my stay there. And that changed everything where suddenly, oh wait, sitting here with our comedy writers till 1130 at night might not be as energizing and fun when you have a baby to get homeMichael Jamin:ToJonathan Collier:That you want to see. So the hours were fairly brutal back then, but I still wouldn't trade it for anything.Michael Jamin:I can't imagine, though, that the hours were like that now, right?Jonathan Collier:No, they're fairly from what friends, were still there. And the hours are very sane now. And they're generally home for dinner.Michael Jamin:I mean, that's so interesting is that they've made a career that show's been on 30, what, 35 years or something?Jonathan Collier:Oh, yeah. And they can still turn out some terrific episodes,Michael Jamin:But it's a career. Your career, okay. You might as well be working at Exxon. That's your career. You get a gold watch and then that's you're done.Jonathan Collier:When I left, it was after season eight, and I thought they were trying to get me to go to King of the Hill, and I had whatever, I had the chance to stay at Simpson's. And I thought, well, there's no way it goes past season 10Michael Jamin:Or any show goes past season 10.Jonathan Collier:It just doesn't happen. And so I left. I thought I kind of felt badly leaving, but I thought, what much better do you want to show with some life in it?Michael Jamin:Yeah. But then again, it's also these people that's, they have job security, which is unheard of in Hollywood.Jonathan Collier:It is absolutely unheard of. And no, actually, that's one of the great gigs to have right now.Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah. For sure. For sure. I know you got to go. We talked about this earlier, but I want to thank you in person as we want to hang up and then briefly thank you, and then I'll let you leave.Jonathan Collier:Oh, thank you for having me. This was really fun.Michael Jamin:This is, honestly, it was so interesting catching up and just hearing your perspective on all this. And yeah, you're going to be our, if the show ever goes, you're our first hire to make a procedural. I don't know how to make, I don't know how to do any of this. Oh, thank you. Yeah.Jonathan Collier:Are we on air now or are we recordingMichael Jamin:Still? Not yet. I'll sign off and I'll stop recording. Okay. Okay, everyone, thank you so much. That was John Collier. Great guy. Okay,Jonathan Collier:Everyone. He promised me a job on air. You heard it.Michael Jamin:I did say that. Yeah, but there's always got to go. That's a bigger, so it's an empty promise. So, all right, everyone, thank you so much. Go. Yeah. A paper orchestra dropped this week, my new collection of True stories@michaeljamin.com. Go check it out. Alright, everyone, thanks so much. Until next week. Keep writing.Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support this show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved The Journey, and Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.

I've been a television writer for the past 27 years. While I've written on some amazing shows, the work that I'm most proud of is my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It's the funniest, it's the deepest, and it's the one that will hit you hardest in the heart. These are the deeply personal, true stories of an awkward, sensitive man searching for the things that are most important: identity, love, forgiveness, and redemption. It's available now for your reading pleasure.Show NotesFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/A Paper Orchestra on Audible - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraA Paper Orchestra on Website - https://michaeljamin.com/bookFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:Yeah, but the problem is they don't help you. They design the book cover. You don't get a choice of what the book cover is. Maybe they give you three choices, but that's about it. They decide how they want and they decide what the title of the book is because you sold 'em the rights. So why am I giving away all this power to someone who hasn't earned it? Why am I making them rich? Why am I giving them any creative input at all when the whole point of this was for me to have a hundred percent creative input? You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase and to support me on this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book now on with the show. Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to What the Hell Is Michael Jamin talking about the podcast where we explore art, creativity, and writing. Oh, it's a big announcement today, Phil. Phil's back, big dayPhil Hudson:Back. Happy to be back. Thank you for having me.Michael Jamin:Big day. We're finally building up. This has been a long project. Phil book, my book, A Paper Orchestra Drops or dropped if you're hearing this. It's available, it's, it's alreadyPhil Hudson:Dropped. It's available yesterday, so go get it now.Michael Jamin:It's called a paper orchestra and it's a collection of personal essays. If you're a fan of David Sedaris, I think of it as David Sedaris meets Neil Simon. And this has been my passion project for years. I've been working on this and I'm very excited to put it out in the world. As you can get it on print, you can get it on audiobook, you can get it as ebook, however you consume your books, and you can get it everywhere. You can go get it on michael jamin.com. You can find it on Amazon, on Barnes and Noble or Audible for the audio audiobook. Anywhere, anywhere you get Apple. If you want to get the ebook, it's everywhere, Phil. It's everywhere.Phil Hudson:It's like you got a real publishing deal except you didn't.Michael Jamin:Well, I'm doing it myself,Phil Hudson:And we'll go into that. I want people to understand you chose to self-publish this at this point, but that's not how we started. And we've talked a bit about that when we changed the podcast title and we talked a bit about it. We're talking about your live shows, but I think this is like, let's celebrate Michael Jamin a little bit today because you're always talking to people to build the mountain, to climb. You are now at the top of that mountain, and I imagine you're looking over and saying, oh crap, look, that other peak there I've got to get to now.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I already am. Yeah, for sure. Lot of it. And I hope this inspires a lot of you. There's so many people who are like, I want to sell my screenplay, or I want to help me break in, help me, help me. But there's so much that you can do. So unempowering disempowering, you're basically hoping that someone else is going to make your career, buy my script, make my movie. But there's so much that you can do on your own, and you may think it's more work because you're doing it yourself, but it's actually less work because now you don't have to count on someone else to do it for you. You can stop begging, you can stop worrying about all the rejection because when you're selling your scripts or trying to, you're going to get rejected by 99 out of a hundred people. But if you just build it yourself, there's so much you can do. The year we live in, it's so empowering. Everyone has a phone and you can shoot on your phone, you can make a movie. Everyone has a miniature movie studio. There's so much we all can do and on our own. And so I'm just going to share a little bit about the journey that I've been on when I started writing this book.So basically this started well over four years ago, maybe five years ago. I told my wife that I was just at a point in my life where I felt a little disheartened by, a little bored by what I was writing in television because when I write for tv, and I'm very grateful to have a job and a career, but I'm always writing what someone is paying me to write. And I'm very rarely writing what I want to write. I'm paying what someone pays me to write or what I can sell, but that's not how I started writing when I was in college and in high school. I just wanted to write what I wanted to write. And so I went for a walk with my wife one day and I was like, I have a really bad idea. I'm thinking of writing a collection of personal essays, which is what David Seras writes. And I love his writing. I've read everything. He's written multiple times. You show him your card, you got a card back there, don't you? Oh yeah. Yeah. He actually, I sent him a piece of fan letter, a fan mail three years ago. But I've read him so much. I knew that he would respond. He talks about, I knew he would respond. It just took him three years to respond, but it was very kind of him.So yeah, so I started writing. I wanted to write this project. I wanted to write what I want to write. I wanted to tell stories the way I wanted to tell them without network notes, without a partner, without. I just wanted to see what I can do on my own without having someone telling me what to do or breathing down my back or saying, no, it should be this or that. What can I do? And so I told that to Cynthia and she said, that's a great idea. And I said, but you don't understand even if I sell it, I'm not going to make a lot of money from it and it's going to take me years and years to do. She goes, you got to do it anyway, because if you do, you will find yourself in the process. And I was like, okay.And at the time, I was really in a bad place. I was just very upset about stuff mentally. I was in a bad place. I was like, okay, I'll start writing. And that's what I did. I remember I had listened to a lot of David C's audio books, but I had never read him. So I was like, I better read him. And then I bought a bunch of books and I read the first one. I remember I was lying in bed. I was reading the first book and I'm about halfway through and I'm thinking, where's this guy going? What's he doing here? Where's he going with this? And then I got to the end of the piece and the ending was such a wonderful ending. I was like, oh my God. And I almost threw the book across the room. I was, I was so mad.I was like, this is going to be so much harder than I thought it was going to be. I thought it was going to be easy or natural, not easy, but just considering I'm a writer, I didn't think it would be that difficult. So then I just started studying him and I got all his books and I read them multiple times over and over again, and the more I read, I was just trying to look for patterns and trying to learn from him. And that kind of just began, that was the beginning of this journey just to study, study what I wanted to do.Phil Hudson:You're constantly telling people to study their craft, and you talk about story and story structure. You have a course on that. Most of your content you put on social media is dedicated to helping people understand that your webinars are often about resetting people's expectations about what a writing career looks like and helping them focus on what really matters. And the undertone that I've witnessed over the last two, two and a half years of this process with you of at least starting the podcast and helping with social media and that stuff, it's all based under the reality or the realization that creativity is worth doing just to be creative and that there's value in that process beyond monetary pay or paychecks.Michael Jamin:Well, yeah, for sure. When I first started writing these stories, the first two, first several were not very good. I was writing in David Sari's voice because I didn't know how else to do it. The ironic thing, as a TV writer, I'm always writing in someone else's voice. I'm writing in the character's voice or the voice of the show, but this is my voice, and this is the first time I actually had to do that. And so because I'm a good mimic and because I had just read so much of him, I was kind of writing, I was kind of the writer like him, and I thought the first two stories were good. And then I set it down for a couple of weeks and I read it with fresh eyes and I thought, oh, this is terrible. It felt like a cheap knockoff. It felt like me pretending I was him and I hated it.I threw all those stories out and then I had to figure out, okay, what's my voice? And that was a long discovery. But the reason why, this is a long way of saying this, those first several stories I wrote, I don't know, maybe six or seven stories, and it just take months and months. At one point, I reach out to my agent. I'm at a very big prestigious Hollywood agency. They do. They represent me in film and tv, and I reached out to my agent. I told him what I was working on. I said, Hey, do we have a book agency, a book department? He said, of course we do. What do I know? I tell him what I was doing. I said, can you hook me up with one of your agents? He goes, sure. So I reach out to their agents. This guy's in New York now, he doesn't have to take, just so people know, I told 'em what I was doing. He doesn't have to take me on as a client, but he has to take the call.I'm banging them. They got to take the call. He doesn't have to bring me on to represent him in books though. And so I told him what I was doing. He goes, oh, that sounds interesting. Send me what you have. I go, well, I only have a handful of stories, but I'll send you what I have. So I emailed them to him. I never heard back. I didn't hear back for probably six months at this point. And I'm still writing more stories. It doesn't matter, whatever. I'm thinking maybe he read it, he didn't read it, he doesn't like it, whatever. I'm not going to stop writing them though. And I just kept on writing all these stories. Finally, six months later, he reaches out to me. He goes, I'm so sorry it took me so long to read these. I love them. Let's get on the phone and talk about them.I was like, sure. He goes, and he was like, when we spoke, he said, he said, do you have any more? Because he only read whatever. I sent him maybe six stories, and I go, as a matter of fact, yeah, I'm almost done with the collection. Give me another couple of weeks and I'll send you the entire collection. So at that point, but again, I'm writing it because I want to write it. I want to do this. I'm not thinking about how much money I'm going to make. I'm thinking about the process of writing and figuring out how to learn. I had to relearn how to write because I'm a TV writer who now is writing books. There's a little difference. There's some difference to it.Phil Hudson:Yeah. A couple things here. I love the narrative, and I don't want to interrupt the narrative, but I think there's some topics that are coming up here. Is it okay if we just dive into those for a second? Yeah, please. Okay. You talked about David Sedaris and you were reading this and you're like, where is this going? And then it ended in this way. That was almost upsetting because it was so beautiful and so well done. What I'm hearing you say is something you talk about regularly on the podcast and in your social media content, which is the way you unpack your story is the job of being a writer. And that's almost effectively what I'm hearing is that's your craft and your tone and your style. You still have to understand story structure and you understand these things. But the unpacking, would you say that that's an example of what you're talking about when you say how you unpack something matters?Michael Jamin:Yes, and the thing is, I've really tried to study him. I think he's the gold standard. I think he's a master, a beautiful writer. There's certain things I was able to learn and certain things I was not able to unpack. And so I learned a lot from him for sure. But some things still remain a mystery to me from how he writes. I can't see through it, and I'm good at seeing through some stuff. So take that for what it's worth. I do remember thinking, I had long conversations with my wife when we were about this. I didn't want people to think that the book was written by a sitcom writer. I wanted it to be funny and dramatic, but I didn't want people to say, oh, this guy's, I wanted it to be a little smarter than just a sitcom, I guess. And so I was very self-conscious about that.And we had long conversations of Is this art? How do I make art? What is art? How do I do this? So it feels like art and what I really came, it was a really eye-opening moment for me, and it came from much of what I learned about how to do this. I learned not from writers, David is probably the only writer who I really studied a lot for this book, but I learned a lot from watching interviews with musicians, ironically, about how they approached their art. And I found that to be more helpful than listening to other writers. And one of the really interesting things, I was like, well, we know there's a market for what David Sedera says. We know people like what he does, so why am I trying to reinvent things? Why not just kind of do what he's doing? And there's two reasons why not.One, I'm not him. I can't be him ever. And that's almost the tragedy of the whole thing is I want to write, this guy can write, but I never ever will. So you're going to have to let go of that, which is almost tragic. But the other thing is, it's my responsibility not to, as an artist, if you want to make art, then add, you have to bring new to the equation. You have to bring new, and that actually, I picked up, I believe I picked up from an interview with watching Pharrell talk about music.Phil Hudson:That's awesome.Michael Jamin:Which is basically he's saying, listen, your job is to bring something new to the conversation, is to put the youness into it. Whatever is you, that's what you have to put into it. And that was very reassuring to hear it from him. I was like, oh, okay, now I can lean into me.Phil Hudson:This resonates with me. And what I wrote down here is that you can look outside of your space for inspiration. And I think this again ties to the fact that creativity is self, it's for the self. Rick Rubin, the producer, you're familiar with him. I think most people are at this point. I was just watched a clip of him in an interview and he said, I have never made music for a fan. When you do, it's bad when I make it for myself or when I do it because it's something that I like that resonates with the listener. And would you say that's what you're doing here is you're writing this for you in your tone because it's the best pure expression of your art?Michael Jamin:Well, yes, yes and no. Some of it, it's very truthful. It's very painfully truthful. It's very intimate. I go there. I think that's what makes it interesting. I think that's my job as a writer. It's my obligation as a writer is to figure out what the truth is and figure out how to tell it. But I also keep the audience in mind, and maybe that's just because of my background as a team writer.Phil Hudson:Yeah, you're an entertainer to a degree because that's what you do, is you want people to tune in for 23, 25 minutes per week, have a good time, forget their worries, and then leave having gotten something from what you've done. Well,Michael Jamin:It's also,Phil Hudson:But I don't know, that negates what Rick Rubin's talking about because it's like when you read, when you're putting out here, do you feel like you are getting the same value out of it that you would hope a reader would, or are you hoping the reader gets more value out of it than what you're getting out of it?Michael Jamin:Well, I don't know. I mean, first I keep them in mind. I picture my reader with a remote control in their hand. That's just become from me, a TV writer. So how do I make sure this story is compelling so that they want to turn the page? But I do keep them in mind in terms of how do I make this story not about me, but about all of us. And I think that's important because this has the danger of becoming very self-indulgent. These are true stories from my life, but I tell them in a way with art, so that you really feel like you're reading a character in a book. I am a character. The character of Michael is in this story, so it's not like, and then this happened, then this happened. I'm not telling you how I broke into Hollywood, although there are stories about that. I'm really telling you about the stories. These are stories of rejection. These are stories of triumph. There are stories there meant to be, the details are mine, but the stories are all of ours. So that's how I feel I'm telling them is like, okay, so that you can totally relate to this so you can feel, okay, I had something very similar and me explaining it to you helps you understand it, hopefully.Phil Hudson:And not to jump ahead, I saw you last year for my birthday, do a performance. My wife and I came out and there's a story, was it, is that what it's called?Michael Jamin:The Goul? Yeah, thePhil Hudson:Goul. Still a year later, 13 months later, still thinking about that goul because as a new father and then hearing your perspective as a father with children leaving the home, yeah, there's a lot of beauty and regret in that story that is paralleling the decisions I'm making now with my children who are young and what I want my life and my relationship to be like with them. So yeah, I think you absolutely check that box. You said, I've heard you say before, you want people to leave and sit there and think about it, have been impacted by what's happening. And I can tell you that that's been very true for me.Michael Jamin:That's been my, because, so Phil came to, I performed this, and if you want to see me perform, you can go to In Your Town if I travel with it, michael jamin.com/upcoming. But that's one of the stories. That's actually one of the stories I gave out to reviewers to review the book and people, they like that story. But yeah, my goal when I write any story, and hopefully I achieve this, is people say, I couldn't put it down. That seems to be the nicest thing you could say about a book. I couldn't put it down. I want you to put the book down. I want you to get to a chapter and just be so moved at the end of it that you're not ready to move forward. You just want to sit in that emotion for however long it takes you, whatever it is, just sit in it.I don't want you to, it's not meant to be consumed that way. And one of the things that I tried to achieve, I made, we did an audio book and I hired whatever. I partnered with Anthony Rizzo, who's the composer I worked with on Marin. He's a really talented writer composer. And so for the audio book, I would send him each chapter. And then I said to him, he's like, what do you want? I go, no, no, no. I want you to read this piece, interpret it. Tell me what it sounds like to you in music. What's your version of, he's an artist. What does this sound like to you in music? And that's what he came back with. And so at the end in the audiobook, if you prefer to consume it that way, at the end of the story, we go right into the music and it forces you, or not forces you, but allows you to sit in it. It allows you to sit in whatever motion it is. The music carries you out for 30 seconds or however long it is, just so now you can experience it in music, which I love that I just love. I thought he brought so much to the audiobook. I'm so grateful he hopped on board.Phil Hudson:I normally listen to audiobooks at 1.5 to 1.75 speed, and then the music kind of throws that off. This is one I would absolutely listen to in real time. JustMichael Jamin:Slow it down. Yeah, down,Phil Hudson:Slow it down and just sit in it and give yourself the treat and the opportunity to sit in that. I think very often we are constantly looking for the next thing or to get ahead or checking off stuff on our list. And that's not what this book is. This book is a sit in it, allow yourself to feel it. Think about how you can apply it. There's just some beautiful life lessons in here as well.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I hope so. That was my goal.Phil Hudson:Yeah, I think it's achieved. And I've talked to several people in your advanced reader group who feel the same way.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:And you've got fans in there, but these are people who are very sincere with their compliments as well. And there's some great compliments coming your way from that advanced group.Michael Jamin:And so thank you. Honestly, I like to do more of this kind of writing, and this is, to me is very fulfilling at this stage of my career. To me, it's more exciting doing this than writing a TV show that might be seen by millions of people writing something that can make someone just make you laugh, but then feel something. It's funny, I have sort of a recipe and I'm wondering, people can see through it at some point, but I don't really care. My recipe is if I can get you to laugh in the beginning, I just want you to open up. Let's just start laughing about stuff and it start, most of my stories start out very fun and light, and then you kind of relax into, oh, this is going to be fun. And you let your guard down, and as soon as your guard comes down, then I hit you as really hard, as hard as I can with something emotional where I talk about, and because you're in my writing course, you'll know where this happens, where this happens structurally. And then at that point, once I hit him in the heart, there's no point in being funny anymore. The humor has already achieved its goal, which is to you to get your guard down. And soPhil Hudson:Engaged, paying attention, it's something, some advice, I know it's standard advice, but it advice used specifically gave me a long time ago, which is it's easy to kill people. It's hard to make them laugh, and so you're almost checking the box on the humor part, so they're completely engaged and engrossed in what's going on, which is why the emotional impact of the reality of this story hits so hard later. Yeah,Michael Jamin:There were times I thought maybe I'm being too funny here in the beginning, I'm not even sure, but because I didn't want any of this to feel silly, I just wanted it to be fun until, but yeah, tonally, there's, I guess some stories are a little lighter than others for sure.Phil Hudson:Yeah, it's good stuff. Going back to what you're telling though, in this narrative of how we got to where you are, you said that you reached out to your agent who got you in touch with the literary agent effectively for books and publishing, and a lot of people, myself included, might be tempted to submit to the agent and then wait and do nothing. And you made a point of saying you continued to write. And the question when he came back is, do you have more? So a lot of people, I think the mistake is that they're putting all their eggs in the basket. And we see this all the time with the questions on the webinars for the podcast, for your live q and as, when you do them on social media, whatever it is, how do I get an agent? How do I get a representative? How do I get a showrunner attached? How do I do this? And it's like you say you're putting all the power in the hands of somebody else and you're saying that's the wrong thing to do. And because you didn't, because you're writing for yourself to do the job, and you didn't wait for one person to make your career, you were even more successfulMichael Jamin:In getting, and he doesn't care. I mean, he's a good guy and everything, but he doesn't care if I achieve this. What does he care? All he wants is, is he going to make money from this? And that's fair enough. He has to make money, so my dream is my dream. I have to make my dream happen. And so yes, then turned it into him. We sent it out, and then the feedback I got was, Hey, this is really great, but platform drives acquisition. I said, well, what does that mean? It means you need to have a social media following. I said, really? It's not good enough that it's well written. No, not anymore. Maybe 30 years ago. But today the industry publishing has changed as much as Hollywood has changed, it's really can they sell it? And now it's sold on social media. You're expected to have that.And I was a little upset about that. I was like, why can't it just be good enough? Everyone loved it, but platform drives acquisition. I said, all right, well, how big of a social media following do I need? This is two and a half years ago. And I couldn't get a straight answer that no one really knew, but especially in the space of They had a good point, Phil. They really did. It's not like this is not a novel. These are personal essays. But like I said, they're told story-wise, not if you didn't know me. You'd be like, oh, this is a nice story. But it just so happens that it's true. But the point that they made was, or maybe I made it with myself. I think that's what it was. I was like, if you were to go to Barnes and Noble and my book was on the shelf, why would someone buy it if they don't know who I am?Because there's true stories. Who cares if you don't know who I am? And that's a fair thing to ask. Why would someone pick it off the shelf? Now, here's the thing, as I was arguing with myself, but here's the thing. No one goes to Barnes and Nobles anymore. That's not where people get books. I mean, they exist, but most people just get it online. Most of the books are sold online. So why do I need to be in Barnes and no, I don't. I need, I mean, I can be, but it's not necessary. And so I was like, okay. And then I was like, well, if I build the platform, if I get a big following and people want to support me and buy the book curious and they like what I have to say and they think I'm talented, great. But then why do I need a publisher?What do they bring to the equation, honestly? Oh, they can get your book in barge. Oh, well, great, but no one goes there anymore. So what exactly did they do? And by the way, they get most of the money. I'm like, okay, well, they help you design the book cover, but the problem is they don't help you. They design the book cover. You don't get a choice of what the book cover is. Maybe they give you three choices, but that's about it. They decide how they want and they decide what the title of the book is. You sold 'em the Rights. So why am I giving away all this power to someone who hasn't earned it? Why am I making them rich? Why am I giving any creative input at all? When the whole point of this was for me to have a hundred percent creative input? I remember at one point, because I had talked to other people in the publishing world and they thought your title could be better. It's called the Paper Orchestra. I was like, yeah, but I think I like the title, but no one really knows what it means. And I'm like, yeah, you got a good point. No one knows what it means untilPhil Hudson:I remember this conversation,Michael Jamin:And then it was ironically, I had a long talk with my daughter. It was on my birthday, and we went for a long walk, and she's so smart, and she says, well, why are she said to me, I thought the whole point of the book was for you to just write what you wanted to write without anyone giving you No. I said, yeah. She goes, well, why are you changing the title? I said, yeah, why am I changing the title? Why am I second guessing myself? So I did it my way. I did a hundred percent my way, and this is my book.This is my expression without having anyone telling me it's wrong, it's different. It should be this or that. Along the way. I got to say, Phil, it's so frustrating for, it's so frustrating to hear this kind of stuff, I think, but it's like I understand what people want. I want this. I want a complete creative expression. And to me, that's the satisfaction. Whether I sell a hundred copies or one copy or a million copies, it's the process that I got so much joy out of. And I think that's what people will enjoy. I mean, it's like I had so many agents, even afterwards, they find me on social media, they reach out to me, go, and I tell 'em what my book is, and they go, oh, that sounds nice, but if you write a young adult novel, I can sell that for you. Or if you write a how to book, we can sell that. I'm like, if I don't want to write those, this is what I want to write. This is exactly what I wanted to write. You got to do it yourself.Phil Hudson:That's right. And that's what you tell people. You got to basically make your mountain, create your mountain, and then climb your mountain.Michael Jamin:And all of it's doable. It's just going to take a long time, but it's going to take less time to build your mountain and climb it than it's for you to beg someone to make your life.Phil Hudson:And begging someone to make your life means you owe them and they have power over you.Michael Jamin:And it's also, but you're going to hear no so many times you're going to get so much rejection. Who needs it? Why not just put all that creative energy into what you want to achieve instead of why are you wasting your energy hitting people up on LinkedIn? What's the point of that?Phil Hudson:This is something in business I'm bad about because we've talked about it before. I own a digital marketing agency. That was my career path before I moved to LA, and I still operate that agency, and we do nothing on LinkedIn. And I was like, well, you got to be on LinkedIn. That's where the businesses are. And I was like, I get that Our business is almost purely word of mouth, and it's because I'm not out shaking my can, asking people to put money in it. We stand on the value of the work that we do, and then that's referral work that goes out to other people. And that's not the way to grow to a business that's going to end up on the New York Stock Exchange or end up something you can trade. But what it is, it's a lifestyle business that creates a way for me to do what you're doing, which is to make my art, to be creative, to live my life the way I want without having to be beholden to somebody else dictating what I do with my time and my hours. And what I'm hearing you say is it's effectively the same thing for your book is had you gone with an agent who sold your book to a big publisher, you would now be mandated to do things in a certain way and you would've lost all of the same creative control. And it almost sounds like it would spoil the whole experience for you.Michael Jamin:It's hard to say. I mean, in the beginning, that's how I thought I had to do it. And then I realized I didn't have to who it could have been a great experience. I don't know. I mean, we'll never know, but I also know it's not necessary even a little bit, not in today's world. And if I do another book, maybe I will use a publisher, maybe not. I don't know. But the point is, if I do, they're going to pay me for it. You know what I'm saying? This first one's on me. I have to prove myself. Sure. If they want in on Michael Jamin, they're going to have to pay me or else, because now the power has shifted.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I can't remember if we've ever talked about this, but this came up in conversation this week's Kevin Hart, where he worked, traveling, doing standup comedy, getting names, getting emails after shows, building a fan base. And then when he got his first big deal, they were like, all right, and then we'll need you to send this out to your email list. And he said, it's a million dollars. And they said, what? He says, you didn't work to build that list. You don't get my people and mine. I put in the blood, sweat and tears on this. You did not. You're going to pay me for that blood, sweat and tears.Michael Jamin:And what happened?Phil Hudson:They paid him everyMichael Jamin:Time they paid him. Yeah. Pay the man and a lot of this, and you've helped out as well with enormously, just in terms of the podcast and help me with marketing and all that stuff and the website. Yeah, but it's still one of these things. Build it first. This is the order in which you need to do things when you make it first and then people will join in. People will want a piece of that. They either want to help you or they'll want part of your success or whatever. It's not the other way around. It's not, Hey, help me make my dream. No one wants to help you make your dream. No one cares about your dream. You build it first and then they'll come out of the woodwork and decide whether they want a piece of you or not, because they can make some money off of it.But it's so much more empowering when you look at it that way. It's like, Hey, I have something to offer here. I have something great. I'm not even offering it. I have something great here. Do you want a piece of it or not? And the answer, they know, okay, that's fine. I will do it without you. But it's the other, you know what I'm saying? It's not like, Hey, help me make it out. Hey, help me. Then you're begging. It's the other way around. I have something great and I'm going there. I'm doing it with or without you. Up to you, you can decidePhil Hudson:It's field of dreams, right? If you build it, they will come. Yeah.Michael Jamin:You got to build it first though.Phil Hudson:You got to build it first. You have to do the crazy thing. You have the lofty idea. You got to go make the baseball field in the middle of your corn field in Nebraska orMichael Jamin:Wherever. And people say, though, I don't know how to do that. But if you are a creative person and you want to get into a creative field, writing or screenwriting, whatever, be creative, prove how creative you are, you'll figure it out.Phil Hudson:Figure it out. Yeah, go cut your teeth. I think it's this metaphor for life though, which is we have to do things that are difficult and hard and things that we don't enjoy because that's how we learn and grow and get better. And redefining failure I think was a big deal for me because failure was something I just tried to avoid at all costs, to the point that I would do nothing if I thought I wasn't going to be 100% successful. So imagine doing that, trying to be a writer when writing is rewriting, you're not going to be okay the first 10, 15 drafts or whatever. Oh, god. And so if you have this fear of failure and what is failure? So redefining what these things means is very important. And when you start looking at failure, a lot of very smart people have said that failure is just the fastest way to get to success. You just have to fail as fast as possible so that you can achieve your goal. And it's just learning what not to do. And so many quotes about that.Michael Jamin:That's one of the things. Another thing that I picked up from another musician, David Bowie, as I was trying to figure out what art is, and he said something very similar. He said, art is basically is taking something from within yourself and figuring out a way how to express it so that you can help understand yourself and the world around you. And he goes, but to make something really great, you have to swim in water. That's just a little too deep to stand in. And that's when something great can happen. When you're in a little over your head, that's when the art is made. And it's the same thing what you're saying. It's like you got to do things that are out of your comfort zone, and that's how you achieve things.Phil Hudson:Yeah. So social media, being a public persona, subjecting yourself to just some of the most crazy things you've told me people say to you and your comments and your dms and just horrible things. HorribleMichael Jamin:Internet is horrible. I don't get a ton of hate, but I do get hate. But that's a double-edged sword of doing this. But also then it was also, okay, I put myself on social media as a screenwriter, as a TV writer, and here I'm sharing my expertise working in the business for 27 years, but I also have show you that I have to show you that I'm actually good at what I do, so that I try to make my posts funny. Or sometimes I just do a post. It's all funny so that you feel like, okay, maybe this guy can write as opposed to just me saying, I can write, showing you that I can write. So there's that kind of bridge I have to cross.Phil Hudson:Yeah. The exercise of putting yourself out there though is just something you were hesitant to for years and years and years. I think since I met you, I've been telling you, you need to be on social media. You need to grow a social media following, and it was just not your thing. And what I appreciate about your story with this book is you care so much about this book and doing this thing for yourself that you're willing to do the uncomfortable, which is be public facing person who is willing to put yourself out there almost every single day for two and a half years despite what anybody says, because that is what is required for you to make sure that you are able to have the maximum impact as you can with this thing that's so important to you. And that is something most people aren't willing to do.Michael Jamin:You are listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamon talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, a Collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timbral. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirker Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book. Go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book.Go to michael jamin.com/book, and now back to our show. I mean, I have people who go on social and things. I go on social media. There's a lot of influencers that I follow or whatever, usually experts in their field, but many of them, or most of them don't use their real name. They don't because they want that anonymity, and I don't blame them, but I can't do that. If I'm talking about my book, you got to know what my name is. And so I end everything is Michael Jamon writer. That's scary to put your real name out there. And so there's that as well.Phil Hudson:This is scary in a real way too. I'm aware of at least two police reports we've had to file for people who've been insane.Michael Jamin:Yeah, there's some insane people out there, but really insane and nothing too dangerous. I had to report,Phil Hudson:But its hateMichael Jamin:Speech. You still have to reportPhil Hudson:It. It speech, it's hate speech. It's threatening. It's angry language, and the things that you're talking about are wild. They're not invoking it. One of the compliments I think you get for people is how you respond to criticism. It's like you could destroy people because you have that capacity.Michael Jamin:I could do that with my words. You'rePhil Hudson:The definition of a good man, and the fact that you are dangerous with your words and you choose not to use it,Michael Jamin:I would believe me, I would tear them apart and make them look silly, but it doesn't help me any. It doesn't actually help me. So I just, I'm getting there rolling in the dirt with them, and then we both get dirty. So for the most part, I just ignore, but I also talk to other creators how they handle the same thing. It's this new internet fame. It's a strange territory.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Well, we were just talking earlier today about how you went. Did you go into a Kinko's or something to PrinceMichael Jamin:And stuff? Yeah, I went to a Kinko's. I got spotted in the wild.Phil Hudson:Yeah, somebody knew who you were and it was more common. Shout out Chris. Chris on the podcast, but it's like the first time, I remember the first time that really happened to you. I remember you told me You'll never believe what happened. I was out in this place and somebody shotted Michael Jamon Ry from their car. It's just a weird thing.Michael Jamin:It's just odd. Yeah.Phil Hudson:I've had a taste of that through association, and I've talked about it on the podcast as well, where we went to our wrap party for Tacoma FD season four, and one of the assistant editors comes up and he goes, dude, I got to tell you, my wife works in the industry and she's an accountant, and she brought over her accountant friend, and they were like, oh, what Jody do you work on? And he was like, I work on Tacoma Dean. And she's like, oh, I listen to Phil Hudson's podcast.Michael Jamin:Oh,Phil Hudson:Wow. And he's like, I didn't even know you had a podcast. I was like, ah. It's a strange feeling. And then later that night, one of our accountants, it must be accountants who listened to our podcast, they brought someone over to the party's like, yeah, listen to your podcast. I was like, it feels weird. And I'm not even Michael Jammin. I'm just a guy who's on there.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's strange to put yourself out there like that, but you're doing it,Phil Hudson:But you're doing it.Michael Jamin:I'm doing it, but I also, yeah. And also, listen, if you want to know more about me, then you'll definitely read the book. The book is very vulnerable, but it's still weird. I don't know. I felt like, well, David Sedaris can do it. I can do it. But I also, I think that's interesting about, I do think that's interesting about this kind of writing is that as opposed to writing a novel that you're making up and you are making up these characters, I feel like the stakes are higher when you're reading something like my book, because you, oh, this character's real, and he's really going through, it's not like when you're reading a fake a movie or watching a movie or reading a book, a novel and the character dies or whatever gets injured or something. Part of you can still say, okay, it's still made up. It's not real. That's just an actor going through something and the actor's pretending. But when you read this, you go, oh, this is real. This is a real person. This is not made up. And I do feel like it raises the stakes, and in some way, I feel like this is my answer to ai, to what if everyone's worried that AI is going to take writer's jobs? This is my answer to that, which is, AI cannot do this. AI is not capable of telling a story about me. That's real. I have to do that.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Someone just yesterday I saw someone posted that asking AI to write about, to write about something is having them listen to a thousand hours of people talking about pizza and then asking it to make a pizza is just like, it's not going to come out. It's just not going to come out.Michael Jamin:I get a lot of people in my comments and they'll say things when I talk about ai, you clearly don't understand ai, and I want to say, you clearly don't understand writing. That's what you don't understand. Yep.Phil Hudson:It's the human condition. I mean, we've been talking about this forever. That's what Star Trek is, right? It's data figuring out what it means to be human. The thing that comes to mind for me is this, for random clip, I saw probably when it was airing real time in the early nineties, and my dad was watching it and it's data talking about how, oh, boy, time flies. And he couldn't understand the expression, time flies. And so he sat and watched an egg boil over and over and over again. He's like, it takes exactly eight minutes and 32 seconds or egg to boil because he couldn't understand or comprehend it from the machine side. And so it's all about that. Even machines want to be more human. And rioting is exploring the human condition. Yeah,Michael Jamin:That's right. That's right. So if you want to understand yourself and you write, and then to me getting back to the book, that's what this process was figuring out who I am, figuring out who I, and it's so interesting because all these patterns kept on emerging. I got write a story and I'd get halfway through it, and I'm thinking, why would this character, and let's say this story is something that I did when I was 11 or whatever, why would this character do that? Why would I have done that? And a lot of times I just didn't know, why would I do that? It didn't make sense. Then I'd write something, I'd go, no, that doesn't feel true. That feels like the TV version. What's the real version? And then I'd have to think of another memory from that time. And I think, oh, I wonder if those two are related. And now I'm figuring out who I am. And I'm like, oh, that's why I would do that. That makes sense. Which is so interesting to finally be able to understand yourself at the end of this book. I'm like, oh, I know who I am.Phil Hudson:In some of my research for one of the pilots I wrote about special operators in the Seal team, six Delta fours, green Berets, army Rangers. I was listening to a bunch of podcasts, and one of 'em was talking about this principle that your level of trauma or your level of struggle is the same as mine. Even if something I've been through has been more horrific. From an objective perspective, our perception of my worst trauma and your worst trauma are equally impactful. And I'm wondering, we had very different childhoods, and we've talked a bit about mine and a little bit about yours, but does that process of exploring, why would you do things as a child? Is that healing for you?Michael Jamin:And it was healing and helpful. A lot of these stories, I feel, are apologies to various people I've heard over my life, and it's not written to be an apology, but when you're telling the truth, it's an apology. When you're acknowledging your end of it, it's an apology. And so I'm not writing it, Hey, please forgive me. It's just about the truth. And so, yeah, I really, it's so helpful, and hopefully this is what people will respond to. When you read the book, you go, oh, man, yeah, thank you for that. Thank you for putting to words what I couldn't do because I'm not a writer. Yeah,Phil Hudson:Yeah. That's the stuff that stays with us, right? It's a metaphor for things we're going through. And I think one of the most impactful lessons I learned in film school was the cool job effect.Michael Jamin:What is that?Phil Hudson:So it was this Russian director who showed the same shot of a man, and then he put it against a starving child or a child in a casket or food, or a beautiful woman. And at the end, everyone came up. And that actor was incredible. When he looked at the food, I could feel his desire for food. When he looked at that girl, I could see the pain of her death. And when he saw the woman, I could feel the lust. It's the exact same shot of the same man. And it's the subjective projection that one puts onto art that allows you, it's an unconscious way for you to make sense of your world and import what your experience is in on something, which is why art has always been a part of humanity. It's why it's something that we have always, I think, sought after. It's not entertainment from a sedation perspective where we're trying to avoid it. Sometimes it's that, but very often the things that impact us and mean something, they are things that we need to experience because they make sense. They allow us to make sense of our world.Michael Jamin:Right. That's a good point that you point that out. Yeah. It's like I feel like I've played a part of that in writing sitcoms sometimes, and there's a place for it. You'll come home after a long day, you just want to thrown out and laugh and really not be challenged and not go there, but for this piece. And there's nothing wrong with that. People want to be entertained. But for this,Phil Hudson:People still learn from that too, that people need that, and it serves a role too.Michael Jamin:They need that. But for this, I didn't want that. I wanted to go way deeper than that. I wanted to because I wanted to feel something. Because my contention as a comedy writer, and I know this is true, is that when you write that humor, write something funny. Or if you go, sometimes you'll go see a standup who's hilarious, but then you leave and you are hard pressed to remember one joke that you liked, or you're hard pressed to remember what you even liked about it. You go, I just spent an hour laughing, but I don't really remember any of it. I know I enjoyed myself, but I can't, it's not with me anymore. And what I really wanted to do was write something that would stay with you after this. So you were still feeling like we talked about, you're still feeling it. And you can't just do that with comedy. You have to mix drama into it. Because comedy, that's not what comedy does.Phil Hudson:Well, I mean, your course and what I've seen you do in your craft and sitcoms as well, this is really key point, is why do we care about this thing? The reason we don't care. That's the story. And that's the personal, and that's the people. And so, I mean, this has been your point, and what you've been teaching for years and years anyway is none of it matters unless it means something. And that is the drama part of the comedy. That comedy can break things and it can move us and give us that ebb and flow and that roller coaster effective emotions. And those are beautiful experiences to have in sitcoms or dramas or dramedies. But it's the, why are we watching this? It's the human thing. It's that human piece. That's what you're saying. That's what I'm hearing.Michael Jamin:Yeah. What's at stake here? What's really at stake? And again, I studied other writers. Some I thought did it great, and some I didn't think did it well at all. And so I was trying to hold myself to that higher standard of the ones who did it really well, because I knew what I, what I wanted out of this.Phil Hudson:And again, we've started by saying, you've climbed this mountain, and there's another mountain.Michael Jamin:There's another mountain. Sometimes people have said to me like, well, are you going to turn this into a TV show? It's so odd. It's so odd. Or a movie that somehow I was even watching, what was I watching, American Fiction, that movie. And there's a line in it where this author, she had a book that was a bestseller, and then she's giving an interview and someone said, oh, maybe they'll a hear. They're making a movie out of it. And she's like, well, I can't tell you anymore as if a movie is better than a book or a TV show is better than a book. A book could be a book, a book. What's wrong with a book? Just being a book.So I don't either have any plans to turn this in TV show. If anyone, could it be me? I am a TV writer. I could have very specific ideas on how I would want to do it, and whether a buyer would want to do that or not, I don't know. But I wouldn't compromise how I'd want to do it. But the best way to make it happen, if it did happen, I would have to sell a lot of books first. So if anyone wants to see it happen, then get a book. And then I would actually make content behind the scenes on TikTok, Hey, look at me now I'm meeting with this studio. And now if that's the ride you want to go on, then in order to go on that ride, I have to sell a lot of copies. But again, that's not my goal. Show support. You can if you're curious, but again, that's not my goal. The goal of this was only one thing. I want to write a book that moves people was never a TV show. I can write a TV show. I write TV shows. That's not what I wanted to do.Phil Hudson:And if you want to be moved, you have to buy a copy of the book because if you're listening to this and you want to experience what Michael has put together, you have to buy a copy of the book because that is, I know the number you've invested significantly into just making this happen for yourself. This is not some random cousin who's like, Hey, I wrote a book and I put it on Amazon publishing. This is the real deal. I mean, lift your book up if you don't mind, so people can see the cover. This has been out for a minute, but even just the story of this cover and how you got this cover and found this artist and license, it is a beautiful story in and of itself.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Okay. That's another thing. So I wanted to cover,Phil Hudson:Before we dive into this, I just wanted to point out too, when you were talking about, you looked at all these other writers and people and you said, that's who I want. That's the level I want to be at. You've done this one. Whatever you do next, you're still going to be saying the same thing. All right. What's the next level of professionalism or craft that I can get to? And that's because you are a pro, and that's what you tell people to be a professional, which is constantly striving to be better than the last time.Michael Jamin:Yeah. There are a lot of writers or authors, maybe indie authors, they're cranking out books. I'm like, Jesus, I cranked this out. This took four years. I didn't crank this out. This was worked on really, I really worked on it.Phil Hudson:But talk about your cover. I apologize for interjecting there. I just wanted to get that point across that you're still going to be pursuing that. Excellent. And that's what makes people stand out. Excellence stands out in a world, I hope so.Michael Jamin:Yeah, make something good and people will, okay, so for the cover, I wanted a good cover, but the book is funny and it's also very poignant. And so I looked at other books that I thought were really good, and so I found this one guy who had actually designed some of David Sari's early covers. I didn't know this guy, but obviously he gets comedy. So I read, his name is Steve Snyder. I just found him on Instagram. I don't know him from a hole in the wall. And I DMed him. I slid into his dms and I told him what I was working on, and I told him, I noticed how weird it's for me to reach out to him. And he goes, oh, well, send me your manuscript. So I did. And then a couple weeks went by, he wrote back. He goes, I love it. I'm in. And now this guy, he's like 80 or something, but he was retired. He goes, I'll come back out of retirement to make the cover for you. I go, great, but just so you know, I don't know what my budget is. He goes, oh, I'll do it for free. I want to be part of it. I love it. I want to be part of it.Phil Hudson:Wow, Michael, just let that sit. I know you've internalized that, but we talk about to everybody. You got to own the wins and you got to celebrate the victory. He's like, what does that mean to you that this accomplishedMichael Jamin:Desire? It was very validating. It was very, and then I was like, alright, well, I'll just figure out what I'm going to pay you later, but, but then as we were moving down the line, he's retired, so he was getting, I just made plans. I'm going to be traveling from, he goes, I want to do this, but I don't think I can get it done on time. He goes, I was like, okay, I don't want to, okay, maybe you can refer somebody. So he recommended one of these accolades, one of the people he trained under him. And so I reached out to her same deal. And so I want hiring her, Jenny Carro. She did a wonderful job with the cover, but getting the cover. And then when we finally got the cover and I reached out to Steve again, I go, here's the cover.You want to see it? And he goes, oh, damn. I love it. I wish I didn't drop out. That's awesome. But what happened with Jenny? So she came back with a bunch of covers that were good, but they didn't feel right. There was something about it didn't feel right. It was like almost, and then she had one cover, and I hate to keep going back and forth with her. I was like, I don't want to discourage her. So one was almost good, almost like right, but not quite right. And then I was intent. I was going to use it. And then for some reason I happened to see an ad on Facebook. It was an article about artists or whatever. So I click on this article and I'm reading the article, and then there's other, I see the cover that she was going to license for my, she was going to license some artwork for my cover, and I recognize it.I go, that's it. And I click on it to discover more about what this artist had done. And then, which took me to his website or his Instagram page, I don't remember. And then I discover all his other work and I go, that's the one. So this is a licensed piece of art from this Dutch artist named Tune Juin. And I reached out to him, I want to license this art for your book, for my book. And he goes, great. It was just a boy sitting on words. And the title is a paper orchestra. And so it's not, what does it mean? It's just a boy struggling with words. That's all it is. And that's what the book is. It's about a boy who grew up to be a man who struggled with words.Phil Hudson:Do you remember what I told you when you told me that story? You remember what I calledMichael Jamin:It? What did youPhil Hudson:I said, that's Providence.Michael Jamin:Providence, yeah. There was a lot of that. There was a lot of just, Hey, that's the universe telling me this is what your cover should be. And once I saw it, I go, that's it. We're done. We're done. We could stop looking.Phil Hudson:And then here's an artist who is putting art out that I would consider to not be standard, normal art that you would think about in a normal way. And then here he is featured in this article, and then here, now you're reaching out and his art is now supporting and improving your art. It's a beautiful thing.Michael Jamin:And then the same thing with Anthony Rizzo, who did the music. When I got him aboard, I go, listen, Anthony, I'm making this audiobook. I don't know how much I can pay you. He goes, I don't care. I want to be part of it. So I was like, okay. And then I had a small budget for him, but then I got this brand deal from Final Draft. I go, oh, good. I can give him whatever I was going to pay him. Now I can pay him additional money from this brand deal. It doesn't come really out of my pocket. Its money. It's kind of found money. So I just give it right to him. That's great. That'sPhil Hudson:Great. I love that, man. Your network will pay in spades if the work you do is quality and you're a good person. I've seen that for you. I've seen that for myself. I've seen it in lots of other people. People want to be a part of your project if what you're doing means something and you're kind. And if you were Dick, imagine you were the showrunner and you were throwing tantrums and going on Tirades on Marin. Do you think anybody, I would want to work with you on this.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But there's that. And like I said, there's also build it for, if I started this by saying, reaching out to these people on Instagram or whatever, Hey, I have this idea that I want to make. Will you be part? No, come back to me when you're done, basically. And so for everyone who has a movie they want to make or a scene, alright, shoot a scene on a park bench with your phones. They're like, you don't need to spend $10,000. You could do it for 50. Whatever you need.Phil Hudson:Jamie Kaler, who I think you're going to have on the podcast, he just Captain Polonsky on Taco D and a bunch of other stuff. I had a long running series as well. He's got a series that he did with another known actor called Dad's in a Park, I think is what it's called. It's him on a bench with another dad just talking about dad stuff.Michael Jamin:And where's that on YouTube?Phil Hudson:I'll find it. I think it's on YouTube and Instagram. But it's so real and funny. It's like, yeah, this makes sense. And it's two great actors who are just doing their thing. And it plays and it plays really well. It's very funny.Michael Jamin:And when you look at people doing interesting things, this is what I say, people who are just popping, who just broke onto the Hollywood scene somehow. Somehow they have a special on Netflix or somehow they're a star of a show or a movie, whatever. Look how they did it. They did it themselves. And then Hollywood discovered them because Hollywood was like, oh, we can make money off this person.Phil Hudson:It's the fable. It wasn'tMichael Jamin:The other way around.Phil Hudson:It's a fable of overnight success that is never overnight success. There was always something before that. EveryMichael Jamin:Time, these are people who are already building it, people like me, people like you who are already building it, and then people see go, oh, what's that fool over there building? I want in on it. And that fool's going to say, well, you can be in or you can either way. I'm doing it without you. So come along for the ride if you wantPhil Hudson:Going to happen. I had love to talk about some of the endorsements of your book, if that's okay. I don't want to embarrass you with some of this stuff. How do you feel about telling the John Mayer story?Michael Jamin:Oh my God. That's anotherPhil Hudson:Thing. I think it's a great story. And I'll just say this. Michael will always be very hesitant about bringing in friends or colleagues to talk about his stuff. And he's made it ver

El economista austríaco Joseph Schumpeter acuñó el concepto de la destrucción creativa para referirse al proceso en el que las nuevas ideas sustituyen a las antiguas, generando una distorsión en el mercado laboral. La inteligencia artificial lleva ese proceso a la velocidad más alta que jamás hayamos visto. El cambio tecnológico hace ricos a los nuevos innovadores y perjudica a los viejos empresarios que poseen la ya obsoleta ventaja. El invento de los coches dejó sin trabajo a los criadores de caballos. Kapital Social: La comunidad privada de Kapital. Ahora con un 20% de descuento. Kapital es posible gracias a sus colaboradores: Nueva edición de los programas: Cardinal y Cardinal X. Compara los dos cursos para decidir con cuál quedarte. Cardinal es un programa online con el que diseñar la carrera profesional que quieres. Yo mismo, junto con Eloi Alcaide, hemos preparado los contenidos después de años estudiando el problema. El punto de partida es que nosotros no sabemos qué carrera debes escoger pero sí podemos darte, a lo largo de 12 semanas, herramientas de introspección y modelos mentales para que TÚ tomes la mejor decisión. Un curso de interés para quien esté buscando un cambio inmediato, pero también para quien quiera estar mejor preparado, dándose recursos, para competir en este mercado laboral incierto. La edad media en anteriores ediciones se situó entre los 25 y los 35 años. Cardinal empieza el próximo lunes 8 de enero. Inscríbete con un descuento de 60 y 40 euros con los cupones ENE24C9 (Cardinal) y ENE24X3 (Cardinal X). Si no tienes claro si esto es para ti, apúntate a la videollamada Q&A que hemos organizado para el miércoles 3 de enero a las 17.00. Patrocina Kapital. Toda la información en este link. Índice: 1.02. La obsesión del emprendedor. 8.47. El dilema caníbal de Google. 17.31. ¿Es realmente inteligente la IA? 35.14. ¿Está el mundo en peligro? 46.45. ¿Dónde nace la consciencia? 1.00.31. Las posibilidades económicas de nuestros nietos. 1.08.11. Armas demasiado poderosas. 1.13.07. Estrategia de carrera para los más jóvenes. 1.24.26. Enamorados de la voz de Scarlett. 1.33.15. La visión coasiana de la empresa. 1.39.46. ¿Cómo hablarle a la IA? 1.47.44. Ulises y las sirenas. 1.54.10. Solo sobrevive el paranoico. Apuntes: The nature of the firm. Ronald Coase. A novel neural network architecture for language understanding. Jakob Uszkoreit. 2001. Stanley Kubrick. La máquina del tiempo. H.G. Wells. Silicon Valley. Mike Judge & John Altschuler & Dave Krinsky. Her. Spike Jonze. Rubianes solamente. Pepe Rubianes. Las trampas del deseo. Dan Ariely.

This episode was originally released June 22, 2022.Richie Stephens became an alcoholic and a petty criminal as a teenager growing up in Ireland. He became a drug addict and then a drug trafficker as his life spiraled out of control. The Irishman eventually ended up in San Francisco where he joined a Chinese gang. He nearly ended his own life before realizing that his addiction was at the heart of his self-destructive ways. A journey to sobriety and a trip down the state of California to Hollywood led to Richie Stephens becoming an actor where today (of course) he often plays criminals. Stephens tells the incredible story of his life with co-authors John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky in the new book "The Gangster's Guide to Sobriety: My Life in 12 Steps."The coming together of the authors and the writing of the book is an incredible story in and of itself. It's now being developed as a TV series. That's because Altschuler and Krinsky are successful Hollywood writers and producers known for creating and running high-profile TV shows including creating the successful series Silicon Valley. During this podcast, Altschuler and Stephens tell that story along with tales from Stephens' life and lessons learned on Stephens' path to sobriety.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Note: We want to be clear that this episode does include material that has been generated by Financial Times journalists using AI tools...we've done it to illustrate just how much AI is influencing the music industry.-------AI has arrived in the music world, and the industry is being forced to wrangle with it. The technology is now sophisticated enough to create entirely new deepfake songs. This year, millions of fake covers, and songs that clone the voices of musical artists, have appeared online. The FT's pop critic Ludo Hunter-Tilney has fallen down a wormhole to make sense of how these programs work. He actually made a song of his own, an original fake song in the style of Tom Waits. He plays it for us, and it's pretty bad.-------We love hearing from you! You can email us at ftweekendpodcast@ft.com. We're on Twitter @ftweekendpod, and Lilah is on Instagram and Twitter @lilahrap.-------Links: – Ludo's article for FT Magazine, Can AI make me a musical star? https://on.ft.com/3XRMnoZ – Ludo is on Twitter @ludohunter – Anna Nicolaou on why Spotify has ejected thousands of AI-made songs: https://on.ft.com/3rvSqnq – One of Ludo's recent stories – a review of Glastonbury festival: https://on.ft.com/3rvSq6U -------Special offers for Weekend listeners, from 50% off a digital subscription to a $1/£1/€1 trial are here: http://ft.com/weekendpodcast.--------------Original music by Metaphor Music. Mixing and sound design by Breen Turner and Sam Giovinco. Songs played: “Downtown Train” written by Tom Waits, published by Island Records. “Gritty Troubador's Backstreet”, written by chatGPT, Ludo Hunter-Tilney, Voicify.ai and Boomy.Songs referenced: “Dancing Queen” written by Benny Andersson, Bjorn Ulvaeus and Stig Anderson, published by Stockholm Records and MCA/Universal. “Ni**as in Paris” written by Kanye West, Shawn Carter, John Altschuler, Dave Krinsky, Jeff Cox and Dave Cox, published by Roc-A-Fella, Roc Nation and Def Jam. “A Thousand Miles” written by Vanessa Carlton, produced by Ron Fair and Curtis Schweizer, published by A&M.Read a transcript of this episode on FT.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Wesley ArcherWhile Peggy is tricked into smuggling cocaine to a death row inmate, who is her former student, Dale decides that he wants to be an executioner.Writing Credits - Mike Judge...(created by) &Greg Daniels...(created by) John Altschuler...(written by) &Dave Krinsky...(written by) Kit Boss...(staff writer)Cast (in credits order) - Mike Judge...Hank Hill / Boomhauer (voice) Kathy Najimy...Peggy Hill (voice) Pamela Adlon...Bobby Hill (voice) (as Pamela Segall Adlon) Brittany Murphy...Luanne Platter (voice) Johnny Hardwick...Dale Gribble (voice) Toby Huss...Wesley Martin Archer (voice) Glenn L. Lucas...(voice) (as Glenn Lucas) Stephen Root

Are you a big fan of "Blades of Glory"? If so, don't miss out on this podcast episode featuring Dave Krinsky, "Blades of Glory" writer.Show Notes:Dave on Emmys: https://taylorwilliamson.comDave's Wikipedia: https://www.instagram.com/taylorcomedy/Dave on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm2743976/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutomated Transcript:Dave Krinsky (00:00):It's so funny in animation because we would do like a big, you know, Hank football. We'd do a big football episode with a lot of people in the crowd, and James would be like, okay, this is really streaming the animators. We can't do another big one next week. So next week we'd go, look, this is a very simple episode. It mostly takes place in the house. It's a very personal story between Hank and Bobby. He's like, Ooh, that's gonna strain the animators. It's gonna require a lot of acting . Yeah. I'm like, ok. So wait, we can't do anything.Michael Jamin (00:25):You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael, Janet.Michael Jamin (00:33):Hey everyone. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this, the podcast. I got another amazing guest today. I'm here with my many, he's been my next guest, has been my boss on many occasions. He's been my friend on one occasion, . And he's . Here he is. Boy, this guy's got good credits. So this is Dave Krinsky and he's a feature writer, show creator. He ran King of the Hill for, what was it, eight years? Eight seasons weDave Krinsky (00:59):Ran. Yeah, I think maybe seven. I can never quite keep track.Michael Jamin (01:02):Felt like eight. Right? He was a show runner, king of Hill for, for many seasons, but a writer on, I think you wrote on every single season, didn't you?Dave Krinsky (01:08):Yeah, we came in right after the first season had just aired. Right. So they were still rewriting and posting season one and starting writing season two,Michael Jamin (01:18):Jump and right in. And then also, we're gonna talk about everything, but I wanna give you a proper introduction. We wrote, co-wrote with his partner, blades of Glory. They ran a, a show called Lopez, which i, I worked on for a little bit. CRO created Silicon Valley. I've heard of that show. Also the Good Family that was a b c animated show ran Bebes and Butthead for a while executive produced movie called Extract. What, what else, what else did you, you did a lot of stuff, man,Dave Krinsky (01:46):Lady Glory. Did you mention that? Wait,Michael Jamin (01:48):I thought I said that. Didn't I not sayDave Krinsky (01:49):That? Yeah, you did. I tuned you out, Don Point. I've learned to tune you out early, soMichael Jamin (01:53):, but man, oh man, I wa how, but you also said, when we were chatting before we started recording, that you did a lot of movie rewr. I didn't even know you guys did other movie rewrites.Dave Krinsky (02:03):Yeah. So when we first came out, this was back, you know, like nineties. You really had to decide where you were. A movie writer, a TV writer. The agents didn't even talk to each other. So we had come out with some movie scripts. We just thought that was sort of the easiest way to break in. Right. And we had ended up selling a couple, we sold one to Warner Brothers. It was they bought it for Chevy Chase. And yeah. Then we got firedMichael Jamin (02:26):And they didn't make up obviously causeDave Krinsky (02:28):They, they didn't make it. We got fired and they hired someone else to rewrite. And our agent goes, that's great news. And I'm like, how's that? Great news? They go, it's not dead. If they're hiring someone else to rewrite it. And it was kind of an a-list writer, then that means it's still alive. But it ended up not getting made, although it's sort of, Ben made a few times because it was a very broad idea about a guy who, you know how we only use 10% of our brain's potential, right. While these scientists developed this serum that unlocked the other 90% instead of being injected in a, you know, good upstanding citizen like Michael Jamin. And it gets in, injected in this doofus Chevy Chase who basically becomes this like throbbing organi organism. He's got 10 times the site and after the hearing 10 times the athletic ability. So he is trying to like, make money and become famous with it.Michael Jamin (03:09):But So he was attached before there was a director or No.Dave Krinsky (03:12):So there was never even a director manager. He was attached, like Chevy Chase had a deal at Warner Brothers and Warner was looking for movies for him. So this, and then those days they were buying spec scripts left and right. Right. So they bought that from us and we spent like a long time rewriting it.Michael Jamin (03:26):So he was giving you the notes on what he wanted?Dave Krinsky (03:29):No, we never even met with him. I think, you know, I don't even know if you ever heard of it, to be honest, it really wasn't those days, Uhhuh , if you wanted a Chevy reputation movie, you bought 10 or 12 scripts and you developed until you found one that you wanted to do and brought to him.Michael Jamin (03:41):So you were dealing with his development people.Dave Krinsky (03:43):We were just dealing with Warner Brothers, Warner Brothers, and the producer. So the way it worked back then, and maybe they still did now, but the spec script market isn't really strong anymore. You would go to your agent with a spec and they'd go, okay, we're gonna send it to X producer who has a deal at Paramount and y producer who has a good relationship with Warner Brothers. And we're gonna, they're gonna go to the studios all on the same weekend and let 'em know. They have to decide. And then hopefully you get at least two offers so that you're playing 'em against each other. And that particular, we only got one from Warner Brothers, so the producer on the project we never even met until Warner Brothers had bought it. So then the producer, and it's a weird deal because we actually had a better relationship with the execs at Warner Brothers than we did with the producer. Like, we like their nodes better. So it's a weird political dynamic that you had to deal with. But we ended up selling a couple of projects that way that didn't get made. But ultimately when Blades of Gloria got made, then it was a ton of rewrite work. Michael Jamin (04:42):And then, but this was, this was during King of the Hill.Dave Krinsky (04:45):Bla Glory was during King of the Hill. I mean, we were doing our movie stuff before King of the Hill started. And, and we started looking around, you know, we sold stuff, but we weren't, we were, John and I were still sharing an apartment in Burbank and I was driving a car with no air conditioning. And I looked over at some of my buddies like Bill Martin, who was like buying a house and buying a nice car. And those guys were all on tv. And John and I were like, well, maybe we should, I mean, we always wanted to do tv but our agents just you, no, you're movie writers. So we ended up writing some TV specs scripts and then ended up getting a job in tv. But, so we were writing specs scripts, we were get assignments occasionally, or we would pitch on something, but it wasn't until Bla Glory that really was like, oh, okay, now we're getting a ton of movie rewrite.Michael Jamin (05:29):And then how did you know Bill Martin? Would you go to, did you go to college with him?Dave Krinsky (05:31):Yeah, we went to college together. So it was weird. It was like, it was me, John Bill, Peyton Reid, who directed all the Aunt Man movies. This guy John Schultz, who directed like Mike. And it was like we all kind of moved out here at the same time to try to pursue the business.Michael Jamin (05:46):Wow. I didn't even know that. And then, well, so was your, when did you decide that you wanted to be a writer? Like in high school or something?Dave Krinsky (05:53):Pretty much, I mean, I, I, this is make me sound really cool but I loved reading as a kid. I loved, you know, books. And I just loved when a story really impacted me and made me think. I was like, wow, that's a cool sort of power to have over people, to influence 'em that way. So since the time I was like 12, 13, I thought about it. And then in high school we had to write a short story for an English class. And I wrote this kind of science fiction funny story, and the teacher, you know, wrote a plus, what are you gonna do with this gift? And I was like, oh, I guess it actually could be a job. Right. So,Michael Jamin (06:24):But you think that it could be a job? Like I didn't, that didn't occur to me until I was older that you could make money in tv.Dave Krinsky (06:29):. Well, you know what I was thinking I'd be a book writer and so I went to Carolina cause I knew they had a strong English department. I took all the creative writing classes there. And since I didn't wanna really do anything else, I took whatever course I find. So screenwriting was one. Playwriting was one. And after I met John Alsk and my partner and, and David Palmer, who I worked with out here a bit.Michael Jamin (06:50):Wow. You were serious about it. Did you have to apply to those programs?Dave Krinsky (06:53):You know? Yeah, no, I mean, I, I was in the, I got accepted to the honors program, which was what I had applied for. And because of that I got to get into some of the writing classes I wouldn't have had access to anyway.Michael Jamin (07:05):So this is all or nothing for you? I mean, you, I mean, there was no plan BDave Krinsky (07:09):Well I, you know, my mom was always like, Ryan, you go to law school, you have something to fall back on. But I knew if I something to fall back and I'd probably fall back on it, you know? And, and it took us a while to get su you know, really established with Point. I could get rid of that crappy car with the o ac ac in the apartment with the oac. But if I had had the ability or the degree to do anything else, I probably would've bailed on the writing dream earlier.Michael Jamin (07:32):Right. Wow. And then, and then, so eventually you just had to move into tv and then how, I know, how did you get your first gig?Dave Krinsky (07:40):So we decided to move tv. We wrote a couple of spec scripts and I think it was Bill Martin who said, oh, you should meet Carolyn Strauss over at hbo o And Carolyn of course was, you know, at the vanguard of starting H B O when it was, yeah.Michael Jamin (07:54):Wait, he's setting up meetings for you? Like, he's like your agent now, bill? No,Dave Krinsky (07:57):It really was one of those things where it was like, we're like, Hey, we wanna get into TV doing, he goes, oh, well you should meet Ke Strauss. We like Hershey's really cool. And I think he might have told her, oh, you should meet these guys. Okay. And so we had a general with her and which was a good lesson. It was like, you know, I think we always had something to pitch. We always knew a general, everybody, you know, wants something. I can't remember if we pitched anything too specifically or not. Cuz in movies you always want to pitch an idea. Sometimes in TV it really is just a general Yeah. To see what you know. But, you know, it was a great meeting and nothing came of it. And then like nine months later we got a call from her and she goes, look, we're doing a show.(08:32): The showrunner really wants movie guys doesn't want like, just TV sitcom guys. Wow. And I thought of you guys, you, you look, look at the pilot, they shot a pilot and they sent the pilot over. It was a black and white period single camera show. David Ledon was the executive producer. Adam Resnick was the showrunner, the creator. And it was awesome. It was like the Cohen Brothers really dark funny. And we were like, yeah. So she set up a call with us. We talked to Adam for like an hour and a half, mostly about Goodfellas and the Godfather and just movies. And then they called us up, goes, look, will you the show's in New York, will you move there? And we're like, yeah, we'll move there. She goes, okay, three or four days, can you move? And we're like, yeah, what do we don't have? I don't even think we had a plant in our place, you know, our fresh food. So we moved toMichael Jamin (09:18):New York. And you got outta your rent You? Or do youDave Krinsky (09:20):Remember? We sublet Cause it was a, I think it was a 10 episode order that became an eight episode order, which is now, you know, the norm. But then was like, okay, so we're only gonna be there probably nine months of production. So we figured why give up our place.Michael Jamin (09:34):Do you think if it wasn't a good show, you would've taken, if it was a bad show, you would've taken the author?Dave Krinsky (09:40):Oh, that's a good question. You know, probably not, you know, before this happened, we were in the movie biz. We, we had a meeting with Polly Shore, right. And Polly was manager was in the meeting and his manager was a gentleman named Michael Rotenberg, who is now my manager. And, and Michael and and Sea have, you know, allMichael Jamin (09:59):Times he's our dealt withDave Krinsky (10:00):Them. He was an executor on King of the Hill. So this was before King of the Hill even. And we pitched Polly the new line, wanted to do a movie where Pauly basically, they sound of mu they wanted him to be a nanny. And we pitched like Sound of Music with Polly going around Europe and Polly was as insulting and, and, and just not a good collaborate. He was just say, Hey, who are these greasy weasels? And you know, he just goes, no, just turn the camera on and I'll be funny. And we're like, okay. But John I think had like $93 in this bank account and I might have had a little bit more. And they offered it to us and we were like, this could be our career right. Path that we don't want to be on. And we turned it down. So I think if it was a crappy show, we probably would've turned it down too.Michael Jamin (10:45):Right. Wow. You turned it down. Cuz I, you know, now you, I think now you take anything you forgetDave Krinsky (10:50):. Yeah, well certainlyMichael Jamin (10:51):It's not you, but one, one does. Right.Dave Krinsky (10:53):And it's not a bad, it's not bad advice. You gotta get in the game, you know? So we had already been in the game just enough that it wasn't like we were completely unknown. We had anything produced, so we certainly weren't a hot commodity. Right. But we really felt like, oh, this could just pigeonhole us. And it was interesting because our agent was like, okay, if you don't wanna do it, fine, but we don't really want to be rude and turn it down, so we're gonna ask for way more money than they'll ever pay you. Right. So they went and asked for like $400,000 and they were furious anyway. They're like, who the hell do you think you are asking anymore? It's just like, sorry, we just don't wanna do it. So. Right.Michael Jamin (11:31):How funny, did you, were you, when you first got on King of the, or I guess not, well I guess, you know, on Resnick's show, were you, did you, did you find it over? You were in over your head? I mean, that's how I felt when we started.Dave Krinsky (11:42):Oh yeah. Because I was always that one of those writers, and I'm sure there's plenty like that. I'm like, I don't even in college where you had to like, give your scr your scripts or your stories to people to read. I'm like, I don't wanna do this. You know? Cause I just didn't have the confidence or faith in myself. So we got to New York and we were working at a Letterman's theater. And Adam's great. I mean, he is the nicest guy. He's a super small staff. There's this John and I, this other team and this guy Vince Calandra. Right. And I just remember like sitting in the writer's room, not saying a word because I was like, I don't wanna say the wrong thing and look like an idiot. And, and in all honesty, when I got to King of the Hill, I looked around, I was like, I recognize names from seeing him on The Simpsons and you know, my judge of course. And I was inhibited there too. And I barely pitched, I think for the first couple of months I was there.Michael Jamin (12:30):Really. And then what was the moment when you felt like you could, you could test the waters?Dave Krinsky (12:36):Well, what happened was, I was just hanging out enough, like, so in the lunchroom, you know, I got to be friendly with people and people go out for a drink and then it suddenly was a social thing. And I was comfortable in that and I could start being funny that way. So by the time I got back to the room after a couple of months, it was kind of like, oh, I was just bull bullshitting with my friends, you know? And it was much easier to pitch because Right. It felt safer,Michael Jamin (13:00):Felt sa because I even remember on Kingley we had some interns, people would sit in pitching and I'm like, how did they get over their fear of pitching when they haven't been hired as a writer? .Dave Krinsky (13:10):Yeah. I mean, and it, it's a good question for young writers and, and I'm teaching a class down at Chapman now and, and I'm like, it's a tricky situation when you're a new writer, you want to talk cuz you want to prove you're mm-hmm. worthy. But if you talk too much or talk poorly Yeah. It doesn't do you any good. And it really, in my opinion, when as a showrunner, I would rather you be quiet and sort of take it all in and pitch very occasionally, then feel like you've gotta pitch stuff that ends up derailing the room.Michael Jamin (13:40):You know, I, I totally agree with you. The one thing I've said, cause I think a new, let's say there's 10 writers in a room, and a staff writer often thinks, well I better speak a 10th of the time because I'm, there's 10 people here, but they're not getting paid a 10th. They're not getting paid as much as the co-executive producer. They don't have to contribute as much. You know?Dave Krinsky (13:56):Yeah. And it's not expected. Like, I've seen plenty of horrible showrunners who are punitive and, you know, they don't make it easy for a staff writer and they're happy to fire a staff writer every season and try someone else. But John, I have always been like, look, we're gonna bring you on board. We're gonna be patient with you. You know, it's like, it's not an easy position to be in. And, and when you're a showrunner, all you want is someone to make your life easier. And if a staff writer makes your life easier one time in a season, it's almost like, okay, you know what? I got something outta you. Great. WhatMichael Jamin (14:27):About that leap from, cuz I was there for that. You were, I guess it was season 60 started running it, is that right?Dave Krinsky (14:35):Yeah, six seven was our first official year running here. Billy,Michael Jamin (14:38):What was it like for you making the le because you know, everyone, you always think, I could do this job, I could do the job better than my boss. And then you become the boss and you're like, wait a minute, this is hard.Dave Krinsky (14:47):Yeah. Well I remember when on that Resnik show, there was a consultant there, and he told us, he goes, the punishment for writing well is producing. And it's like, you know, you work your way up and you become a producer and suddenly Yeah. You're managing people, you're dealing with all the politics, the budget. And I think the, the biggest thing that happened to me was we were working, and I can't remember if you were in the room or not. Do you remember Collier's episode about that Michael Keaton did? What The Pig the Pigs are? Yeah.Michael Jamin (15:15):I was there for probably, we probably got there for the animatic part of it. So we were didn't great itDave Krinsky (15:20):Okay. So it was a really weird story and Collier's a great writer, but this was one that was trouble from the get go just because it was so bizarre. Yes. And and I remember we were working super late trying to get to it and, and I think Richard Chappelle was running the, the show at that point. And he and Greg were developing a show and they left the room and everybody left the room. There was like four of us in there, and I think Greg or Rich Dave, you get on the computer and I and King of the Hill, the room, it wasn't like a conference room, it was like a big, almost like living room with a Yeah. Scattered room. One person sat there, it kind of ran the room. We didn't have the screen showing the script, which I never liked anyway. And I was like, I don't think I can run a room. Mm-Hmm. . And I got up there and I was just like, you know, I just did what I had to do. And I remember we, you know, spent a few hours, it was late night and we kind of like gave the script rich and Greg, and they came and got, this is great, this is working. And it was like, oh gee, so I guess I can do it. Right.Dave Krinsky (16:15):So when we took over the show, yeah. I mean it definitely was like, you, so many things were harder than you would think, but some were easier too. I remember the other showrunners before we run the show would come back from pitching the story. So the network, and they go, well, we sold six outta seven of 'em. So, you know, it wasn't easy. And then when we started pitching to the network, you know, the show had been on for six, seven years. They were like, okay, good. It was like, oh, this isn't that hard. Right. The hard parts were, you know, managing the budget, managing people, managing writers, dealing with the network.Michael Jamin (16:47):How much budget were you dealing with? Like, what were you, how big was it? Like, were you what? No, I mean, like what, what exactly were you doing? You know? Oh, yeah, because I, I don't really touch the, when we were running stuff, we don't really touch the budgets, butDave Krinsky (16:58):What do you, oh, so I mean, first it was the writer's budget, which every year was like, yeah, okay. Like, who can we afford to pay? But I mean, a lot of it, you'll remember our, our line producer McKinsey would walk in and be like, you know what? Last episode had a football crowd and this episode you want to do, you know, whatever a a crowd scene at the school, we can't afford that. The budget won't. Right. You know, so a lot of it was making creative decisions based on the limitations. Although it's so funny in animation because we would do like a big, you know, Hank football, we do a big football episode with a lot of people in the crowd and Jims like, okay, this is really streaming the animators. We can't do another big one next week. So next week we'd go, look, this is a very simple episode. It mostly takes place in the house. It's a very personal story between Hank and Bobby. And he's like, Ooh, that's gonna strain the animators. It's gonna require a lot of acting . Yeah. Like, ok, so wait, we can't do anythingMichael Jamin (17:52):. There's always a reason. That's right. There's always a reason why you're gonna ruin the show,Dave Krinsky (17:57):The bank.Michael Jamin (17:58):Wow. That's so, and now and then so what ha, so then after King of the Hill, which you guys did for many years, then it went down and they then went down for, I was probably a couple years it went down. Right.Dave Krinsky (18:10):I don't remember if it was a couple years because Yeah. So the show did not get picked up. Right. And then they moved John and I and Clarissa assistant onto the lot, into this crummy little office to finish posting the shows. Right. And so we were there posting the shows and we never left. I mean, by the time we, we, it's not like we were like home and done before we left there. They, they picked the show up again for another run.Michael Jamin (18:38):What was the thinking behind canceling and then picking it up again? Like why?Dave Krinsky (18:42):From what I hear Uhhuh, it's so, you know, Fox Network ran the show. Mm-Hmm. , 20th Century Fox was the studio who owned the show. Right. And apparently the, the heads of the studio got big bonuses when they got new shows on the air that were successful. So they weren't making a ton of money.Michael Jamin (19:05):Personally.Dave Krinsky (19:06):Personally. And the other thing, apparently they owned and operated cuz everything was syndicated. You know, in those days the package was so high for them to pay. As the show got on that they were like, wow, we gotta renegotiate this deal. So when everybody started renegotiating, it seemed like, okay, let's not do it. And then ultimately, I bet it was Aria Emmanuel fought for, cuz he was always fighting for it. But, or maybe it was Rotenberg, but yes, that's whatever they just decided. Okay. They made a deal and picked us back up again.Michael Jamin (19:34):And at that point it was, it was a lot of new writers, well most of the writers had moved on, but you were still on the show. So the cause you kind of restarted the staff was almost, as I remember it was almost almost brand new. There was only a couple pre previous writers, like Christie Stratton was there,Dave Krinsky (19:51):I think Christie was there, kit was there, kit Balls, GarlandMichael Jamin (19:54):Garland was there. Sure. Okay.Dave Krinsky (19:56):Yeah. So there was definitely a core group. I remember like, I can't remember Tony and Becky came on. Right. I don't remember if that was before that or not. So I think enough people, it might have been like, nowadays there's not really a staffing season, but I think it might have been during a non-st staffing season that enough people hadn't landed somewhere that we could get, get him back.Michael Jamin (20:15):Right, right. And then after that, you guys did The Good Family?Dave Krinsky (20:20):Yeah. So that was another, you know, people wanted an animated show from us. We had, you know, we'd gotten very close to Mike on King of the Hill. So started working together a lot with him. And we had this, this show The Good Family about a very you know, PC family, sort of the opposite of Hank Hill. And I just remember, you know, everybody was like, okay, take it to Fox and it'll run for forever. And it was just like, we just wanted to do things differently. And m r c and Independent, you know, studio had came out, came after us pretty hard and said, no, we want to do this deal. We can finance it and, and you can have a better upside and more freedom and Okay. So we decided to do it and we pitched it around and a B C just made such a hard press for it.Michael Jamin (21:03):OhDave Krinsky (21:03):Wow. And yeah. And it turns out they weren't the best partners simply because they didn't have any animation on. Right. They put us on with a really bad animated show, like after Wipe Out or something. It was just like not a good fit. Right. So, but it ends up, you know, the bottom fell outta the industry right after that cuz Rotenberg would call us up and goes, you know, your numbers would be a top 10 show like within two years. Right. We would've been like, fine. But at that moment just wasn't good enough numbers.Michael Jamin (21:30):And then, and then came, then they brought back Beavis and Butthead, which you guys ran, which was so interesting cuz that was a whole different experience that, that was all freelance. That's why you guys called us, Hey, you wanna write a briefs and Butthead? We're like, yeah, we'll do that.Dave Krinsky (21:43):Yeah. I mean, who wouldn't wanna have an opportunity do that? Right. Yeah. So Mike, they've always begging Mike to bring it back and he was always like, yeah, the situation has to be right. And he just felt like the timing was right. And he had some stories he wanted to tell and he loves doing them. I mean Yeah. You know, as he always said, king of the Hill requires a ton of effort for a little bit of output. Bvis requires a little bit of input for a ton of output. You know, people just love it and it's funny. Yeah. so yeah, so I mean, the budgets weren't super high and we couldn't license music anymore. I mean, and when Mike originally did it, it was all music videos because M T V owned all those videos. Right. But the world had changed so suddenly we were doing Jersey Shore and, and a lot of other like, reality shows. Cause that was the only sort of material we could get mm-hmm. . Michael Jamin (22:29):Yeah. But we, that's, we did like, because I remember we brought, you guys brought us in, there's a, there was a woman, a couple women in Detroit, it was so cold in the deed, had a song so cold in the deed. ColdDave Krinsky (22:40):In the de Yeah.Michael Jamin (22:41):And I don't remember how it happened, but I, I think I commented on on her, maybe on her YouTube channel or something. I go, this is a great song. And she went with nuts. She's like, oh, thank you so much, . She's, so, yeah,Dave Krinsky (22:53):It was a weird sort of viral head, I think almost before things really went viral. And it was just like a homemade video about, you know, living in Detroit and Michael Jamin (23:01):And how did you find all that stuff?Dave Krinsky (23:03):Mike had found it and just thought it was really funny and really interesting. And soMichael Jamin (23:06):He was just surfing the internet looking for like, real cheap stuff that he could get.Dave Krinsky (23:11):I don't even think it was like with an eye toward Bes, but he also was in this little network of like, Knoxville and Spike Jones. They all like send each other stuff. So I don't know where he got it from, but I think he just saw it. And, and, and you know what, I, I don't know, he's never said, but that might have been. But just to bring Bes back where he is just like, oh my God, they'd have so much fun with this.Michael Jamin (23:30):Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlistMichael Jamin (23:54):And then okay. So then what, what came after that?Dave Krinsky (23:58):So yeah, blades of Glory was in the middle of the King of the Hill era. Right. and then I guess Silicon Valley really would be the, the next big thing that,Michael Jamin (24:10):And Okay. How did you guys come up with that idea? Which is a pretty big hit.Dave Krinsky (24:15):Yeah. So that was an interesting confluence of events where Mike had been in talks with H B O, they really wanted to do something with him. And Scott Rudin wanted to do something in sort of the gaming space. Mm-Hmm. . So they were sort of circling around this tech world. And Mike's like, I'm not a gamer. I don't know that well, but Mike was an engineer, you know, electrical engineer, so he knew, you know that world well. Yeah. but John was reading the, the Steve Jobs book by Walter Isaacson and saw this quote in the book where it's like Bill Gates was making fun of Steve Jobs goes, he can't even code.Michael Jamin (24:48):Yeah.Dave Krinsky (24:49):So John had this idea. He goes, well that's a really funny world. And his, his brother was an electric engineer, so he knew that world as well. And you know, so we pitched an idea to Mike doing something that Mike goes, well, I would love to do that. So then when we pitched it to H B O, they were like, yeah, this sounds great.Michael Jamin (25:04):Sorry. Right. So you wrote the pilot shot it and you were, and then like what people don't understand is like the process for shooting a pilot or, you know, like it's a big deal. It's like a lot of work. It's like even casting is a lot of work.Dave Krinsky (25:18):Yeah. And it, it was a lot of work and, and you know, there's a lot of round, I mean, after to, you know, really it was pretty high on it even after our first draft. It felt like it was gonna move in the right direction. And I do remember them calling him saying, okay, we wanna shoot a pilot mm-hmm. . and we had just done a show for Nat Geo before this where the budgets, the budgets were, you know, very low. I can't remember what they were, but, so HBO calls saying, you know, look, the pilot's gotta, the budget's gotta have like a four or five in front of it and we're like 400, 500 grands ton, but we can probably do it. It was like, no, no, no. Four or 5 million, million(25:52):. And they, they actually forced us to go up to Silicon Valley to shoot for a few days, bring the whole company up and we're like, there's nothing up there. We can shoot this in la. You know, and we ended up shooting like on the side of a freeway and we had a couple establishing shots of Google and Facebook and Right. And stuff. But, you know, HBO does things and they want it to be authentic so you know, all the credit in the world to them. Right. and then, yeah. Then when we did an edit, it was interesting cuz the pilot to Silicon Valley has a very big subplot of these two women in LA who are tired of the LA scene and they go up to Silicon Valley cuz the guys are rich and nice and and nerdy. And they meet our heroes in the first episode. And h HP was like, yeah, you know, we don't want this storyline. We don't think we need it. So those poor actresses got cut outMichael Jamin (26:37):Mm-Hmm.Dave Krinsky (26:37): and yeah. Crushing. Crushing. Yeah. It's gotta be, gotta be tough to see a show be that and you're,Michael Jamin (26:44):And you were cut out of it. Yeah. Yeah. What now when you, I know you, you teach at Chapman, it's so interesting cuz some people are like, is film school worth it? It's like, it depends on who you get as your teacher. Like, honestly, it's like it, you know and I'm sure they're very lucky to have you. What do you, you know, what is it, what's it like with these kids? You know, what are you teaching them? What are, where are they coming from, I guess?Dave Krinsky (27:06):Yeah, so the class is writing for adult animation. So, you know, half hour animation was like King of the Hill and, and, and things like that. But you know, as you well know, writing for animation is very similar to writing for anything. You know, it, it really is. You still need your three x structure and everything you can just go a little crazier with with things. And yeah, I asked them all, you know, beginning, because it, a lot of people still ask me, is it worth going to film school? Look, film school's expensive if you can afford it. Mm-Hmm. , it's not a bad thing. And I think what these kids are getting, and I said kids, but a lot of 'em are in their twenties. I think one's in his thirties, Uhhuh, . They're writing constantly. Someone's making to, that's good.(27:45):They're in LA so they're exposed to people, you know, not Pam or something, but like me who have done it in the business. We're not just academics who have published books about things. You know, and, and you know, you know, Brian Behar is down there, there's a bunch of Jill Con, there's a bunch of people down there who are like, done stuff. And last week or the other day, Damon, the guy who did La La Land, I can never say his last name in Whiplash. Yeah. He was speaking tonight. Austin Butler's speaking. Like, they just have a ton of people coming through. So you have exposure to all these people who have done things. Yeah. You also have connections that, you know, if you don't go to film till you just have to move to LA and try to, you know, try to build yourself. So yeah. So I think it's a, it's a good thing if you can afford it. If you can't afford it, it is not, it is not worth stretching to do it because, you know, we moved to LA and we started networking and meeting people and kept writing and, you know, that's really how most people do it. DoMichael Jamin (28:40):You feel you have to beat misconceptions out of them? You know,Dave Krinsky (28:45):I think this is my first class and I'm teaching second year grad students. Mm-Hmm. , so they're fairly savvy.Michael Jamin (28:53):Okay.Dave Krinsky (28:54):I think they've been exposed to it enough that there's not a ton of misconceptions, but there are big gaps in their knowledge. Just, you know, as it would be with anybody who, who hasn't been in the business. So, look, I teach them things about structure. Things like things they've probably heard before, but in ways that, you know, I, here's mistakes I've made before. You know, having a scene have to carry double duty and a half hour show is really difficult cause you have to change gears within the middle of a scene. You know, keep it simple. So things like that, I should, but they definitely light up more to my more anecdotal stories. Like, what's it like to be in the room? What's it like to work for a showrunner who's, you know, marginalizing you. What I remember I talked to the other day, I go, yeah, so we have this if come deal. And I could say, I go, wait, do you guys know what NIF come deal is? And they're like, no. I was like, oh, okay. Well let me explain that. So Right.Michael Jamin (29:45):What do you tell 'em about the showrunners? Who, who, who marginalized you? What's your, what's your advice on that? I wanna hear it.Dave Krinsky (29:51):Yeah, you know, it's just tough. I mean, I just keep stressing to them that most showrunners are under so much pressure and stress. All they want is someone to make their life easier. Mm-Hmm. . So, you know, the better you can do that, you know, the better off you'll be. And sometimes it's uncomfortable, but you need, like you, well I guess you weren't there at the beginning, but the king of the hill, you know, Greg was running the show and he had so many things you were on, so he was barely in the room. Right. So you didn't really know what he wanted. You didn't know if your story was gonna work. So if you saw em in the break room or saw em in the hallway, you would be like, Hey Greg, this is what we're doing. You know, you try to get feedback from em.(30:31):So that's what I tell them. I go do get as much from the showrunner as you can. And some of them won't give you anything as they're not rooting for you to succeed, but get as much as you can from them when you can, because it doesn't do you any good to try to figure out what they're doing. I mean, you have to do that to some level. The more you know what they want. And that's why I tell these, you know, these kids are doing beat sheets and outlines. I'm like, be as specific as you can. Don't cheat yourself because I'm gonna read stuff you gloss over and go, oh, I guess they know what they're doing. Right. And then when you gimme a script and I'm like, wait, what if you had done that in your outline? I could have pointed it out at that stage.Michael Jamin (31:06):Right, exactly. And when you say, cause when you say you know, you just helped the showrunner out, like, to me, what I want as a showrunner, what I, I just want a draft that doesn't need a page one rewrite. That's how I feel. I mean, is that what you're talking about?Dave Krinsky (31:20):Pretty much, yeah. I mean, or look, if you're someone who can, who can, you know, have the joke or the story fix in the room that gets you all home sooner, then that's fine too. I mean, you know, I mean, at King of the Hill we had such a big staff, it's an animated show. There were people who turned in great drafts. There were people who weren't great draft fighters, where were great in the room. You know, so in those days you could build a big enough team that, you know, you could have a pinch hitter and a utility field or designated here. Now the staff are so small, you really do want someone, but you're right. I mean, to get that draft mm-hmm. that needs a ton of work, you're like, okay, this sets us back so much on everything else now we can't, now I can't be in the editing room now. We can't push that next week's story forward. It's like, now we gotta dig in on this one.Michael Jamin (32:03):And, and what, what is, I mean that's exactly, yeah, that's exactly the panic that I, I I used to feel. But what did you, what is the advice, like, cause the industry's really changing so fast now. Like what is the advice you give these kids get out of film school in order to get into the business?Dave Krinsky (32:20):Yeah. I te look, it's tough. You know, I always try not to be too negative about it because it's always been tough. It's just tough in a different way. Right. you know what I tell them is like, look, the movie business is extraordinarily difficult. Mm-Hmm. . So if you want to be a movie writer, that's fine. But, you know, I urge them like, TV seems to be a cleaner path. Yeah. It used to be with movies, at least you could write a spec at some control where TV had to hope somebody hired you. So now, you know, I say, look, if you have a good movie idea, think about it as a series because, you know, a-list actors are all doing tv. You know, there's a, there's, and obviously TV is in a, isn't a great state right now with just the quality of it. Yeah. but yeah, I mean, you really do just have to, the basics are right, right, right. Mm-Hmm. and network, you gotta be in LA you gotta be hitting all the places because you never know. Look, that meeting with Carolyn Strauss, we had like, it was a good meeting. It wasn't like, ah, we've made it, we've met Carolyn Strauss and it wasn't until nine months later that something on the game of it. Right.Michael Jamin (33:19):Right. So it's really about getting in those circles.Dave Krinsky (33:21):Yeah.Michael Jamin (33:22):Yeah. I mean I, yeah, I remember people say that all times. Do I have to be in la? I'm like, you don't have to do anything you don't want, but you know, this is where the fish swim. You know?Dave Krinsky (33:32):Yeah. I mean the, the thing is, and I think you've probably said for, it's like the material doesn't really speak for itself. Mm-Hmm. , like in movies, it used to like a good specs script would find, you know, a, a buyer mm-hmm. , you know, now there's very few ideas that someone's gonna go, well, I don't care who this comes from, I want to do it. You know, and there's, there's very few scripts that are good enough that any anybody's gonna be like, I'm gonna put this on the air. It happens. They are out there. But the vast majority of the time it's, I've been hanging out, I've been going to, you know, upright citizens for grade. I've been going, oh, I've been helping out on a student film. Right. Hey, that kid I helped out is now on the desk at uta. Does UTA even exists anymore? I don't know. You know, myMichael Jamin (34:15):Agent? Yeah. I'm not sure.Dave Krinsky (34:15):Yeah. It's c aa and it's like, you know what, he wants to be an agent, so he's trying to hustle. So he's gonna hand the script over to, and suddenly you have a meeting, you know, with an agent, a real agent. So that's how it mo mostly happens. And you gotta be in LA for that.Michael Jamin (34:30):Yeah, exactly. That's how I feel.Dave Krinsky (34:33):Yeah.Michael Jamin (34:34):So what now I know you also, oh, I wanna mention your, your book. Is it you, you and John, your partner are of the, like, of all the writing teams I've known, even writers I've known, like you guys are the most entrepreneurial, it seems like you, like, you know, there nothing, there's a, there's a path to do it and then there's always like, well let's figure out how else we can do them. You know, you're always like the hustle doesn't end and it's create, it's always like creating opportunities for yourself.Dave Krinsky (34:59):Yeah, I mean certainly. And John's much, much better at that than, I mean he has a very entrepreneurial spirit and I enjoy it though. I like doing things differently. But he's very innovative in the way he thinks he's been in Europe for since, for Covid and for a lot of that. Mm-Hmm. just, you know, kicking the tires in the international market and making some headway there. But like, I remember like a couple of years ago we hooked up and were producing this writer who had done a academy award, docu a nominated documentary, and he had a half hour sitcom and he was he was crypt camp, so he was in a wheelchair and it was a character was about his story. And it was a really cool story. And Obama's company was attached to it. And it was like, this is a great, I mean it's a great script, great project, you know, and we go to Netflix a Zoom pitch and they literally were like this.(35:47):But as soon as the camera came on, you're like, okay, this isn't gonna be a sale. Mm-Hmm. , I mean, we knew it from the get go. Good lesson is you still pitch your heart out cuz you don't wanna ever have to blame yourself. If they don't buy it, they don't buy it. But so was like, what, you know, it's a great pro. Everything was great about it, but you don't know what they want and you just have so little control. So as we say, like shopping around town with our briefcase full of wears like Willie Loman is just not an appealing thing. So, you know, John had met this, this Irish actor, a guy named Richie Stevens, and he was pitching a friend's story and you know, that story wasn't quite hooking John. And then Richie started telling him about his own life and he was a recovered alcoholic drug addict gangster.(36:29):Right. And he is like, oh, that's interesting me, I want you to meet Dave. So we all sat down together, I'm like, I just had a fascinating life, a fascinating story. Like that's a great story to tell. Right. And and it was John's idea too. He was like, rich, you did the 12 steps of, you know, recovery. And he goes, yeah. He goes, let's tell your story in 12 steps. And that lends itself to a very nice TV show. Mm-Hmm. . But we were like, do we really want to go pitch a TV show? And so we said, you know what if we could write this as a book, cuz it lends itself to a book really. Well, 12 chapters. The 12 steps. Right. And I always wanted to write a book from the time I was 12, you know but then we'd have an IP and Hollywood loves an ip, you know, they love it If it's a,Michael Jamin (37:12):You still had to pitch it as a book. I mean you still have to pitch cuz you had to pitch it as aDave Krinsky (37:15):Book. Yeah. It's not like that's an easy path either. Yeah. But look, we had been out here long enough, we knew, you know, Jake Steinfeld Body by Jake who had published several successful books. He goes, well let me introduce you to my book agent. She publishes a lot of nonfiction authors. We'd pitched to her, she said, okay, this is a good hook. I think I can sell it. She turned around and sold it to a publisher. So then, you know, then we wrote the book, which took a while, but it's like now we have a book, which is an ip, which we can set up and we have much more control over it. Yeah. And we're making very good headway and setting it up as a TV show now.Michael Jamin (37:48):Right. Cuz you're bringing, you're bringing more to the table, which is why I always say, what else can you bring to the table? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, yeah, and it's an interesting read. I Yeah. Read it. Wonderful. So yeah, I give give you guys a lot of credit, a lot of credit, a lot of hustle.Dave Krinsky (38:03):Well look, a lot of it comes from boredom. And, and in all honesty, there's certain things we can do because of our track record. So when I'm advising like younger writers, I'm like, well, this won't necessarily work for you. Right. But you really do. I mean, the business has become so consolidated. It's a, it's a weird, it's also a weird business where like almost the quality or success of the entertainment doesn't matter. I mean, Apple's trying to sell mm-hmm. , you know, iPhones, Amazon's trying to sell everything else in the world so it doesn't have the same sort of metric as it used to when you were pitching a show. So it, it, it's difficult. But you know, like I met this young writer and she wrote a script that I really liked a lot mm-hmm. and, you know, we tried to set it up around town and have a ton of luck.(38:44):And then we learned she has dual citizenship, I guess triple citizen from Belgium and from France mm-hmm. . And it's like, oh, an American writer who's got, you know, some talent who can go over to the EU and tap into the money over there with their subsidies because she has a, is a huge thing. So now we're making headway on that. Right. So there's a lot of different angles that anybody's starting out might have access to that they can do instead of really just waiting for an agent or a writer or a studio to notice them.Michael Jamin (39:14):Right, right. Stop begging, stop begging, start making, making things happen yourself. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Well tell, well tell us tell me what the name of that, that book so they can find it on Amazon.Dave Krinsky (39:25):It's called The Gangster's Guide to Sobriety.Michael Jamin (39:27):Yeah. He's a charming fella.Dave Krinsky (39:29):That guy. Yeah. You know, he's a real Irishman with the Irish accent and like, if you read the book, I mean, he did some horrible things and he's always like shocked that people are nice to him cuz of the horrible things he's done. But he's also a very gentle, sweet guy. He was just an, he was an addict and, and he made a lot of bad decisions from there, butMichael Jamin (39:45):Right. Dave Krinsky (39:46):But yeah, he is a good guy. He'sMichael Jamin (39:47):A good story. Yeah. A lot of good stories. Dave Krinsky, I'd give you a hug ifDave Krinsky (39:52):You I wantMichael Jamin (39:53):One , if you weren't on Zoom. Thank you so much. Thank you. Is there anything, any other parting words that we can get from you or anything, any other wisdom? Is that, or we tap, tap you out?Dave Krinsky (40:03):I don't know about wisdom, but I know that you know, a lot of people are, are tuning into you and checking your stuff out. And I just remember at King of the Hill and we've worked together on a bunch of shows, like you were always the fastest guy in the room. I was always just so amazed and, and jokes never translate. And it was your joke, so you'll sound like an idiot. But I just still remember we're all sitting in the writer's room and someone comes in and says, oh, I was down in Century City and I saw that Bewitched movie with will Ferrell and a Nicole Kidman. Yeah. And they go, how was he goes, well, I didn't really get to see it all because there was a fire alarm in the fire department came, came in and you yell everybody out, there's a bomb on the screen.Michael Jamin (40:38):, I don't remember that at, I have no memory of that at all. . My other, myDave Krinsky (40:44):Other favorite memory of King of the Hill was, you remember sitting in that back chair mm-hmm. taking a hole.Michael Jamin (40:50):Yes. And I have, I found a picture of it that was, I'll explain for the, for the, for our viewers we had, right. So there was a while on King of the Hill when we were working like 20 hours a day , and I felt like a hostage. And I had this one big chair that had big wooden legs on it. And I took like a thumb tack and I started digging a hole like the Shawshank Redemption. Redemption. Like I was digging a hole out of the . And then, and it took, it took months to finally when I finally broke through, I put a picture of Rita Hayworth on it so you couldn't see him as digging . And this is ballsy for a new guy. Cause I was like, you know, I was destroying furniture and I was telling everyone that I was not happy to be there 20 hours a day.Dave Krinsky (41:33):. Well, the thing we all, we all kind of bought into this fantasy that when you broke through we'd be free. Right. And it was so depressing when you broke through and we were like,Michael Jamin (41:43):We're allDave Krinsky (41:43):Back to work.Michael Jamin (41:45):I, I remember Garland was particularly interested in it. She's like, well, you know, because she was like, what are you gonna get through? Oh, funny. That's so funny. I'm, I'm glad you reminded that cuz I forget everything. That's the va the advantage of working with people if they can remind me of these stories. I don't remember any of that. I don't remember that that be whichDave Krinsky (42:04): Yeah. No, it was very funny. But no, I this was a pleasure and I I love what you're doing and I think, you know, you're giving information to people that's kind of hard to get anywhere else. You can learn craft, you can learn certain things, but you have so much input that's useful on a day-to-day level for aspiring writers. So good on you.Michael Jamin (42:20):Thank you so much Dave Krinsky, thank you again. AndDave Krinsky (42:24):Pleasure to see youMichael Jamin (42:25):Everyone. So yeah stay tuned. We had more episodes coming up next week. Thanks. And yeah, we have what else we got? We got a free webinar once a month. Sign up for that on my website, michaeljamin.com and my free newsletter. All good stuff. Go to michaeljamin.com and you can find it. Alright everyone, thank you so much.Phil Hudson (42:44):This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's cycle. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok at @PhilAHudson This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until max time, keep writing.

Were you a fan of the TV show Silicon Valley? If so, make sure to check out this podcast episode featuring John Altschuler, one of the show's creators.Show NotesJohn Altschuler IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1014365/John Altschuler Wikipedia -  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_AltschulerJohn Schuler Emmys - https://www.emmys.com/bios/john-altschulerMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutomated Transcription:John Altschuler (00:00:00):And I got back from delivering pizzas. And this is like, we didn't even have an answering machine. Okay? This is like we had no money or whatever. I get back, my phone's ringing and I, I remember it was about four in the afternoon and I, I pick it up and I can I speak to John Altschuler and I go, this is, this is he? And he goes, this is Mad Simmons. No, his rats. I think this rats, you know, this is rats of Soman. And he goes, money talks. What have you got? . Okay. I'll be like, what is, I got your dollar beer bill right here. What have you got?Michael Jamin (00:00:33):You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael. Janet.(00:00:41):Hello everyone. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I'm Michael Jamin, and I have another great guest today that I don't know how many people are listening. I have thousands and thousands of listeners. And I'm telling you, not one of them is deserving to hear this man speak because this guy, the credits, his credits. And I'm gonna start off by saying, say, welcome to my show. It's John Altschuler. I'm gonna give him the proper introduction. He's my friend, but also many times he's been my boss and this guy, he, he was the, he ran, he and his partner, Dave Krinsky, ran King of the Hill for many years. They created Silicon Court, co-created Silicon Valley, their movie credits, or they also created The Good Family. Do you remember that show? They, they ran Beavers and Butthead for a while. They, they're in credits in they created, wait, did I say Silicon Valley? Yes. Their movie credits are included. Well geez,John Altschuler (00:01:31):John Henry, I'll tell you, blades of Glory,Michael Jamin (00:01:34):My Tongue, blades of Glory. But also produced X Track. And and they ran Lopez on I think that was tbs. Where was that? Tb?John Altschuler (00:01:44):That was Viacom, yeah,Michael Jamin (00:01:46):. And, and I worked on it. I don't remember what, but never . But John, thank you so much for the coming to the show. This is a go, this is gonna be a great one because John is one of, first of all, lemme start from the beginning cause I'm not even sure if I know all this. Like, when did you decide you wanted to be a writer?John Altschuler (00:02:03):You know it's interesting because I think, I would say when I was 10 or 12, Uhhuh , I was one of those kids from our age that comedy was everything. Okay. And back then you had three networks and you were just like, oh my God. You know, the, you know George Carlin is going to be on this show and you just get 10 minutes of it, you know? And so I always loved comedy and I always kind of loved the deep dive into comedy. And then, but so it, it always was kind of important to me. And then I went to the University of North Carolina and I majored my dad. You know, I come from an academic family, so I majored in anthropology and economics Uhhuh. But I was really interested in writing. Now my thing was, well, I didn't think that I should major in, you know, writing for screen, whatever, you know, whatever.(00:03:06): Because I kind of thought you learned by doing Uhhuh , and I wanted an academic degree. But what happened in college is that at Carolina, at the time, we had an incredibly bad communications department. Okay. It was so bad that I'm not making this up. They had equipment in the basement that students weren't allowed to use because they might break it. Yeah. Okay. Literally not allowed to use it. Okay. . So, but this these people who I knew started S T V Student television using cable access cuz they have to provide it and da da and Dave and I and our friend David Palmer, were just vultures and like, all these guys did really hard work. They got the campus to, you know, the university put up money and they got cable. And we just showed up and took all the cameras and, and filmed our stupid comedy show. Know, probably you're, you're familiar with Friday the 13th, the stage musical, and Bonnie and Clyde and Ted and Alice and, and Point and Wave you.Michael Jamin (00:04:12):And so you, I, this is obviously, cause I, I don't know this cause I haven't visited the Library of Congress re recentlyJohn Altschuler (00:04:18): Yes. With the Smithsonian.Michael Jamin (00:04:20):But, so with these, like, these were a single camera show that you acted, did you act in as well?John Altschuler (00:04:24):Oh yeah, yeah. It was me, Dave, Dave Krinsky, and this guy David Palmer. And we did a half hour comedy show just while we were, you know, in school. And then when we graduated, it was, I, I was like, well, I had an econ degree, which means, and not a graduate degree. I didn't. So it was kinda like, well, you go work as a teller in a bank, there's not much you could do. And I was like, you know what? I want to, I want to, I think I'm interested in writing. And my mom, who is, she passed away, like going to 99 years old. I I was like, I think I wanna do it. She goes, well, why wouldn't you? You know? And I was like, you know, go out to California. You're, you're young, you're stupid. If it doesn't work, you just come back.(00:05:06):There's no, and Amazon was like, oh, she's right. And so from North Carolina though, so graduated. Yeah. And what Dave and I did is we basically both worked service jobs in Chapel Hill to save up money to come to California. And in the interim, I had this idea, and actually it was a, it turned out to be a, a pretty important one is I was like, let's get published. Okay? Now, back then they had these things called books. Okay. You know, you didn't have the internet and you went to the library and it was a book called The Writer's Market. And it was, yeah, it was every magazine and what they're, you know, so we're looking up, you know, well, where could we get comedy stuff published? And there were only, there weren't many outlets. There was just, national Lampoon was the only national Humor magazine.(00:05:59):Playboy did humorous pieces. And then after that it was just porn because they were all trying to maintain First Amendment thread. So they would publish articles. So like, I remember there was like something called Nut Nugget and Smut in the Butt, . And we were like, okay, let's start with National Lampoon, and then when we get rejected, we'll end up hopefully getting published by Smut in the butt. Okay. So what happened, is that we start with National Lampoon. So I, I find them in the, the Writer's Query, and I mean, and the writer's market, and it says specifically National Lampoon does not accept any unsolicited material. Right? Okay. So now you probably know this about, I'm a little off the beaten path kinda guy. And so I'm like, well, you know, Dave and I had come up with a bunch of ideas. And so what I did was I put a letter together and explaining an incredibly snotty, sarcastic terms, how important you are at Nash Lampoon.(00:07:02):And, you know, your time is so valuable. So here I'm, I, I'm, I'm enclosing something for your time. And I enclosed a dollar bill with the letter Uhhuh . And, and I sent it to the managing editor Chris Simmons, and then his son Mad Simmons. No, mad Simmons was the, the managing editor. He, he invented the Diner's card. Okay. He invented the credit card. Right. And then bought National Ha as a large Wow. Mad Simmons, Chris Simmons and Ratso Sloman. So I sent it out the, and I swear to God I was, I, I worked, I delivered pizzas and worked at a Chinese restaurant as a waiter, and I got back from delivering pizzas. And this is like, we didn't even have an answering machine. Okay? This is like, we had no money or whatever. I get back my phones ring, and I, I remember it was about four in the afternoon, and I, I pick it up and I can I speak to John Altschuler and I go, this is, this is he?(00:08:01):And he goes, this is Matt Simmons? No, his rats, I think it was Rats told, you know, this is rats slow. And he goes, money talks . What have you got? . Okay. I'm be like, what is, I got your dollar beer bill right here. What have you got? And so, right off the bat, I just started pitching. And he goes, okay, okay. We, we had one idea about, there was this woman named Kathy, Evelyn Smith, who went to jail. She was the one who was with John Belushi when he overdosed. Okay. Okay. Now, he was a freaking drug addict. He was gonna die. Okay? But they blamed her because she supplied some drugs and da da da. And so the thesis of the article is that all she was getting out of prison, and Hollywood was terrified because of her, her abilities to make them do things they don't wanna do.(00:08:52):You know, like Richard Pryor says, she made me set fire to myself, freebasing. And they, and they're all like, so they liked that. So wrote that and it got published. Now, back then, national Lampoon was a big deal. Yeah. Animal House had ju had come out just a few years before National was vacation and Stripes. Mm-Hmm. all in a freaking row. So us being published by National Lampoon coming out Hollywood, it opened up huge doors. I mean, go ahead. No, I'm, I, I'm, I didn't know. I'm surprised. So what kind of doors did it open? Well, like, for example okay. So you can't be shy. Okay? It, it, it's simply nobody's gonna do it for you. As I sometimes tell kids, nobody wants you here. Nobody wants you to do, there's plenty of people doing and nobody's looking for. Let's get one more. Okay.(00:09:41):But I'd gotten the name of an agent at C a a, Lance Tendler, and Lance Tener was in the music and of ca but I didn't know anybody. Right? So I, I said, and you know, here's the thing. If you show some manners and take a little bit of time, it's a big, it's a big deal. So I sent him nice letter, explained, well, this is what we're trying to do. And he ended up giving it to a colleague, and the colleague said, well, I C A A was a, I mean, that's who where I am now after, you know, 30 years. But at the time, I mean, they were the biggest deal. Like, you know, nobody could get ripped by and blah, blah. But they offered to pass our material on, and one of the people they passed it on to was a producer named Neil Maritz.(00:10:26):Now Neil, Neil Maritz ended up producing all the Fast and Furious movies. Right? Okay. And he had not gotten a movie made yet, and so he loved National Lamp and he jumped on it. So our first producer was this guy Neil Maritz. And our first agent, no, no, he was a producer. Okay. The agent sent our stuff to him. Oh, I see, okay. And so that was kind of an in, and he was a hustler and kind of new. And so, and he is actually a nice guy. He really is. Like, he's, he's very Hollywood, but kind of in a way that you miss. But he wasn't, he wasn't a, he wasn't toxic. He was like a, a good sort that really wanted it to work out. And so that was our, our end. And then it's kind of funny because we were trying, okay.(00:11:18):We moved to Burbank, California, and Dave and I, my part, we, we got a a two bedroom, one bath apartment in the Valley, $625 a month, no air conditioning. Okay. Right. And I mean, it was freaking brutal , because, you know, you'd have Yes, I can imagine. Oh, yeah. You know, it'd be like a hundred degrees and a Yeah. You know and I worked room service up at Universal, and Dave was a bellman, and I finally got a connection after six months of being a PA on a movie. And that was like, huge, right? Like, oh my God. You know? So I'm a, I'm a pa and and what movie was that? It was called Miracle Mile. And the, it was not a good movie, but it was directed by a really nice guy, talented writer, g you know, actually some people like Miracle Mile, I don't know.(00:12:13):Not me. But but he was a good guy. His name is Steve Dejak. And he he ended up being like, I, I just sort of worked. And he, he was a good sort. But that led to being a pa on a movie called Tort Song Trilogy, which was produced by Howard Gottfried. Right. And Howard Gottfried produced network and altered states. And so there's something that Dave and I learned is that p I'm really cheap, okay? Because I came up with no money didn't have Wealthy f . It was all, I, I was on my own now, my parents were great, just didn't have money. Okay? So what I found is that writing is expensive, because if you're writing, you're not making money. Mm-Hmm. . Okay. And I figured out that every day to write cost me back then about 60 to 80 bucks because I could live on nothing.(00:13:11):Right. But I needed about 60, 80 bucks a day to get, you know, to, to survive. That's what I needed to make. And what I found is I would work these PA jobs, and I found that I could work for a month to write for a month. It was almost one to one. And it was interesting because when I was a interest, I've said that three times, it was interesting to me, you know, that when I was working as a pa I also tell the youngins this is that if you are a pa, just don't be insane. If you're an intern, don't be out of your mind, okay? Because if you are not crazy, and you make your boss's life that much easier, right? They love you. Yeah. I mean, they love you. And so all I did on Torch, on Trilogy is I made sure that Howard Gottfried always had a coffee cup in his hand.(00:14:02):I anything, if there was an errand there, be run, it was done like hours before it needed to be done. And I just did my job. And one time Howard was walking by and he goes, John, John, John, look, you don't wanna be a pa. What do you, what do you wanna be? I go, well, I wanna be a writer. He's like, well, I know something about writers, you know, because he was Patty CHAI's producer. He goes, let me read what you got. Okay? So I gave him something that we were working on, and it was interesting. It was interesting. He, he, he says, this isn't gonna sell Uhhuh. You write five, five scripts. He goes, if, if you write five scripts, you are going to sell it. And I swear to God, the fifth script sold, because you need to write, fail, write, fail, write, fail. And he read it and he goes, you know what? There's some stuff here you need to, he goes five times.Michael Jamin (00:14:56):Right.John Altschuler (00:14:57):That's what, that's what it took. And so that was the break was a, an idea that I had, it's something I'd read, read something in the, the Wall Street Journal, one of those things about like, you only use one-tenth of your brain power, right? And this idea was like, well, what if these scientists unlocked the other nine-tenths? But it didn't make you smart, it just made you this throbbing biological mess. You can hear everything and it bef while you're raining. And in't that was called Brain Man, right? And we sold that, and that was our entree into Hollywood.Michael Jamin (00:15:35):You see, one thing I wanna interrupt is that for the most people who were listening, they don't know this, but John is easily the most entrepreneurial writer that I know. Many writers. Like, he makes his own path. And so this is just, this is, okay. I'm not surprised at all that, I mean, but then, okay, so then you sold that. Then what, what happened after that?John Altschuler (00:15:53):Well, back then, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, you literally could only work either TV or features Uhhuh. . Okay. Mo they were completely separate as a, and I just liked comedy. I liked it. Like I didn't care if it was, but that made no sense to anybody. Okay. They were like, no, no. And to the point where agents would get into fights mm-hmm. if a movie client did TV or Vice, because it was taking money out of their pocket. Right. You know, I gotta give, Ari was one of the early guys who was like, no, no, no, we gotta, we gotta, we need everybody. Everybody's gotta be working to bring money to me, . So, so we gotta share, you know? But it was very divided. So we started out with a, in the movie business, and, you know, we would, we would sell a pitch or every year, year and a half.(00:16:51):Yeah. You know, and just, we were just sort of hanging in there. And this was sort of odd. The phone again, is that I remember, okay. Got down to 92. Do, and this is about steering your own ship. Okay? Yeah. We got down to $92 and had a meeting with an a comedian called Pauly Shore. And Pauly Shore was a huge deal back then. He was a, you know, comedian and he had this character, the Weasel, and he was like and oddly enough, his manager was and his our manager now. Okay. So we go into this meeting and it was like, now if you knew Polly Shore, he is, this is Guy blah. And this is very eighties you know, it might have been 90, but whatever. So I had this idea, the Sound of Music, but instead of Julie Andrews, it's Poll Shore is the nanny to all these kids.(00:17:49):Okay? Very simple. Okay. So I just said, well, here's this idea. And the executive that knew I loved it, oh, go in. You gotta pitch, you gotta pitch Polly. Okay? So Dave and I go in to pitch Polly's Shore, and you know, I've actually heard he is a good guy. This, this was not . We, we go in and I, I, it was so vivid is that he kinda looks at it and he is like, well, I don't know Michael Rotenberg, that these guys kind of greasy. And like, you know, okay, I have this thing. We've had a very rough ride, is that I do my job, okay. I've had an executive while we're pitching, get up and leave the room. Mm-Hmm. I just keep pitching, okay. Because I'm gonna do my job. Okay. That's all I can control is what I do. So these guys are kind of greasy and just hear what they have to say.(00:18:39):So I go, sound of Music. So I've done it, and he is like, what sound of, why would I want the sound of Music? I don't know what that is. No, this I'm not doing a music video, man. I'm doing a movie. And, and I remember Rotenberg going, Polly, you know, sound of Music, okay, it's on every year, you know? And he is like, oh no. He like, ah, man, this is all I want, man. Is it? So I'm gonna go like in England, I might say like, Cheerio chap. And then like, maybe you send me to Germany and I'll maybe wear those funny leather pants and go, you know, Hey, hi. You know? And so we leave that meeting and it was just like, what the fuck? Yeah. It was just crazy . And we get, I, I check on the agent and she goes, they wanna hire you.(00:19:28):And I'm like, what? Now here's the thing. People have different views of careers. I've always believed that if I made one misstep my career's over, because I'm kind of a snob. So I'm kind of like, you know, well, you know, and I was sitting there going like, well, I know who does Polish Shore movies, okay. I can't be the guy who does Polys shore movies because I didn't drive, you know, in my car, didn't have air conditioning either, you know, across and work for three a three years as a pa break in to be that guy. Now I got nothing against it. There's a place in it. But I knew that I would never ever get out of that. Yeah, okay. Some people can, some people can then, you know, have Academy Award-winning careers, you know, but not me. I knew it. So I said, well, call the agent.(00:20:21):I don't wanna do it. And Agent turns, she says, don't worry. Okay, so what do you mean? Okay, what do I do? She says, I'm gonna ask for so much money that they'll pass. No problem. Cuz I, now, this was for New Line Cinema who, who I, and Dave and I literally moved the furniture into their offices. Okay. Wow. We were, when I was a PA for Georgetown Sure. It was for New Line. So we sort of know, knew these people, you know. And so we, I get, again, with the phone call, I get a phone call and I pick it up and it's a guy just starts yelling, who the fuck do you think you are? ? Who the fuck do you think? I'm like, well, wait, is this John? I'm like, yeah, who the fuck do you think you are passing on Polly Shore?(00:21:08):I'm like, we, we didn't pass on Polly Shore. He goes, oh yeah. Like, we're gonna pay you 400,000 fucking dollars. No fucking wait. You're gonna do it and you're gonna do it for what you should get paid. And I'm like we didn't do it. Okay. And I'm glad that we didn't do it because it would've been probably the end of who knows You, you, you make with whatever you, you do. But we ended up not doing it. And then went back to being a pa and I never had any doubts about it. But then what happened is an executive at H B O named Carolyn Strauss, who actually was a producer of game of Thrones, and she was the, the head of H B O for a, for a little while. And the, she was the head of their scripted, and, and she really liked a, a, a screenplay that Dave and I wrote.(00:22:01):Mm-Hmm. and she, she said, you know, Hey, would you consider working in television? And David, I like, yeah, nobody will let us, you know? And, and she's like, well, if you'll consider it, can I, there's a new show that H B O has with this writer, Adam Resnick. Now Adam Resnick, as I said, maybe the greatest guy I've ever met in Hollywood outside of Michael Jamin. He's, he's extremely funny, extremely talented, extremely nice. Okay. Everything you want. Okay. So we get on the phone with him and we basically talked about The Godfather for an hour, hour and 15. And we get off and, and you know, we only had one phone day. What do you think? He likes The Godfather. said, I like the Godfather. I think, you know, I don't know. And then they say, we get a call, he wants to hire us, and will you guys move to New York?(00:22:56):Now, this is the good thing about living below your means or at your means, is that we're like, well, yeah, we'll move to New York. And then they go, will you move in three days? Okay. And it's like, yeah. So literally locked the apartment in Burbank on the corner of Pass Avenue in Verdugo. And three days later we're in the Ed Sullivan Theater. It was produced by David Letterman. Right. So we were in the Letterman offices with an o overlooking Broadway three days later. Wow. And, you know and that was interesting because writing for TV was such a huge win for us because we'd written screenplays and sold screenplays, but nothing had been made. Right. You don't learn anything when things aren't made. Mm-Hmm. . So being, and also Adam was such a great, generous guy, and the staff was me, Dave, and this guy, Vince Calandra.(00:23:53):There was no staff. So we were allowed to do every, you know, everything, but you would see things that you think are written, well, not playing. And now it wasn't, it wasn't a com it was a con, it was comedic, but it wasn't a joke driven show by any stretch. But you, that was the high life, right? That was the high life. Yeah. But you learned by doing, it's all about doing. And I've told, you know, executive for years, if you wanna rewrite them, you don't hire a movie. You guy, you gotta hire TV guys, because like Dave and I have rerun, rewritten, run, probably 300 rewrites. Okay. That means you, you, you put it up there, you keep what matters. You lose what's screwing things up, and you gotta make it better. Okay. And I think we're particularly good at it of some people, the only way they know how to rewrite is by throwing everything away, which is a waste.(00:24:52):Right. It's, it's a waste of time and you lose good things. But if you want to have your movies rewritten, higher TV writers, because what Dave and I learned through working and TV is you just see it again and again and again. And I always tell people like, the most remarkable thing about comedy is that there is something that you like, you know, Dave and I ran King of the Hill for eight years, you know, and there were, there's both sides of it. Is that, you know, we're, we are the last decision makers, okay? So they're things that we are convinced are gonna kill. Okay. Thi this is so freaking funny, we can't wait. And so the table read happens. Mm-Hmm. And everybody, and you're, and you're not laughing . Okay. And you're like, what? Because you can't make yourself laugh. Yeah. You know, there, there's one guy who worked on King of the Hill, and he had this trick, he, he sort of very nice guy, but very political in a way that he knew how to go to make a laugh happen.(00:26:01):Mm-Hmm. , I think you learned that on SNL or something. You , you know, and that would, but you can't make yourself laugh. And then on the other hand, there'd be a joke that I would condescendingly agree to put on, you know, and Dave, shall We slum with this? And, and, and then the the roof comes off. Yeah. And you're like, you just don't know. It's, it's dark magic. I mean, that's part of magic. But did, no, you joined King, who, was it season two or one, were you Oh, season one. We, we, we, we came in during the first, you know, the, the first run, they were just, they, they, they had broadcast one or two episodes, but, you know, in animation. So we worked on episode three for all, you know, all through. And we're the , this is awful. But Dave and I we're the only ones who worked on that show, except for, I mean, the actors, 13 Seasons David are the only ones like beginning to, yeah. It's it was a lot.Michael Jamin (00:27:08):And tell me about, cause I was, I was there for it. But when you got the, when you guys got the bump to run the show, I mean, what, that was a big, that's a big step in any writer's career.John Altschuler (00:27:16):Well, you know what, what it boils down to is you should always be ready. Uhhuh , you just gotta be ready. And what happened, the wheels had come off King of the Hill for various reasons. And the episodes simply weren't the being delivered. It was, it was, they were gonna cancel the show. And w it was a very weird combination of we were working these incredibly long hours one time, like almost, I think we worked three days without going home one time, two and a half. AndMichael Jamin (00:27:47):I remember there were jack hammering in the lobby while we were trying to sleep in on the fourth floor. Oh yeah. You remember that?John Altschuler (00:27:54):Oh my God. Yeah. So it was just awful. And what Dave and I, we just wanted to go home. Yeah. So we just on our own with a few writers, let's go write an episode because there, it just wasn't happening. And so we wrote an episode and what's interesting is that the show was gonna be canceled and they had no choice because there was a script. We gotta do it. And it played great. Right? And so then, well, they needed another script and they needed another. And what happened, and this is because of Mike Judge, is that it, we were just doing it in the like, oh, let's go, let's go get it done. And it was so gratifying because we liked the show a lot. Yeah. We loved the show. And to see it go off the rails to get it moving again. And basically Mike Judge found out that we were writing all this scripts not by ourselves. Right. With all theri You were there, you know, with all the writers just putting, and they he just said, I'm not doing another year unless John and Dave are running the show. Now. We were very low on the totem pole. Okay. No,Michael Jamin (00:29:02):You were No, you were, you were, weJohn Altschuler (00:29:04):Were co-producers.Michael Jamin (00:29:04):You were co-producers at that point.John Altschuler (00:29:06):Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Believe me, I know. It turned in, it turned into a big problem with Fox because we saved the show. All we asked to take over and run it was to get paid what other people have been paid. And they're like, well, no, we'll give you a 15% bump from no producer. And you're just like, no.Michael Jamin (00:29:29):Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You could, whenever you want, I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.John Altschuler (00:29:53):There. Apparently there's still animosity to us, cuz we were seen as arrogant mm-hmm. for that.Michael Jamin (00:29:58):Right. Well, you got paid, you gotta get paid, paid this suck guy.John Altschuler (00:30:02):Yeah.Michael Jamin (00:30:02):Yeah. You guys did it for many years and then they canceled the show. Then they, they brought it back and then you were back in charge of it again for the final circum excuses.John Altschuler (00:30:10):Well, yeah, yeah. So they, they kept, Dave and I kept it, kept it alive, is that they, they tried to cancel it two more times. Right. But we kept the, like we just, we always delivered the show on time and the ratings kept going up so they literally couldn't cancel it. They tried a total of three times. Yeah. And then it, there's something kind of interesting to us that a lot of people don't understand is that the last episode, one thing I always said, like, well you didn't do this, you didn't tie it up, you didn't do that. You didn't have, you know, these people there is that. I decided I'm not making the last episode. Okay. If this is the last episode, great. But we had been canceled. Right. The last two. So I'm like, I'm gonna make an episode. That could be the last episode, but I'm not the one putting the, I'm not gonna be the one who puts the, you know,Michael Jamin (00:31:05):Nail the coffin. Right. Because you wanna keep it goingJohn Altschuler (00:31:08):. Well, but I also didn't feel like that was the right thing to do is that, you know, we didn't create it Uhhuh, you know, and I was just like, you know and Mike was good with that. He would've been, he was okay with killing it, you know, he was like, you know, he was, you know, done. But I'm, I'm, yeah. So anyway, that, that was the run of King of the Hill. But what's great about doing that is by learning how to rewrite and also it was a three act show. It helped our movie writing dramatically. Yeah. And so while we were running King of the Hill, we wrote Blades of Glory and got that in production, which we, we simply wouldn't have had the skills Yep. To do it without all of that. The foundations from all those rewrites.Michael Jamin (00:31:57):I was just, I used telling people just the other day, if you wanna be a feature writer starting TV, so you learn Yes. Three act structure, you learn how to do it. And I said exactly what you said, you know, five minutes ago, which was we, we did, we sold the movie a couple movies and the exec said I wish all feature writers were as easy as TV writers. You know, because nothing's precious.John Altschuler (00:32:17):Nothing's precious.Michael Jamin (00:32:17):Rewrite it. Well, fine. Yeah. As long as I can check I'll rewrite it. You know. Well,John Altschuler (00:32:21):I always tell people like, it doesn't disappear, appear, put it to the side, it can always come back. Yeah. You know, be because, and if it co if it makes its way back fine but you don't care by then, you tend to like better. Cuz obstacles, you know how like people who don't have obstacles, you'll like, how'd that piece of shit get made? You know, or you know how it got made, but why is it so bad? It's cause you didn't have obstacles. Right. You always need people going, huh. What? Huh? Wait, because then you got to justify yourself and then you gotta bulletproof it and you gotta try harder. That's how something gets, gets good.Michael Jamin (00:32:59):Yeah. And then what, how did, how did Silicon Valley come about?John Altschuler (00:33:04):Silicon Valley happened because I was reading a book about Steve Jobs by Howard Isaacson. Okay. And I remember reading this book about Steve Jobs and there was this paragraph just a, and it was about Bill Gates making fun of Steve Jobs because the asshole can't even write code. And I'm sitting there, I was on a plane and I remember laughing, reading this going, that's freaking funny. The guy created the biggest brand name in the history of the world. Right. And there's some other guy going, what an asshole. You can't write code. And I was just like, well that's freaking funny. And so then I didn't even know really what writing code meant. Right. So I was like asked my brother who's an engineer and my brother-in-law is in an engineer. Everybody is engineers. And then, so I was like, well, there's something here.(00:33:58):Okay. And then we went up to Silicon Valley to do a little r and d cuz it's like, okay, there's something important here. Couldn't quite put my finger on it. And it was hilarious cuz I was able to get, we got meetings with these tech executives mm-hmm. . Okay. And three out of three said they want, look, we're not, we're not trying to make money. We're trying to make the world a better place. Mm-Hmm. we're just trying to make, and, and, and I was like, that's freaking funny. I remember telling Mike, I was like, Mike, this is, this is a freaking gold mine nobody. They just wanna make the world a better place. Yeah. One place that we, we we met with, they're not there anymore. That's when we, most of the things that you see through the first season, were just from that one trip because you're like, there was a guy number seven and you're like number seven.(00:34:51): And it turns out in Silicon Valley your importance was the lowest, how low your number was because that's how the number you were hired. Right. He was number seven at Microsoft. You know, whatever the hell it was, I don't, you know, so number sevens there. And then this company was, you know how, I can't even remember. I got, I'm sure I got the Snapchat gives you 15 seconds. Okay. We're gonna give you nine. Okay. And I remember going well, wait, so is less a proprietary concept? Absolutely. . They're like, okay, so your whole and these offices overlooked San Francisco Bay, they were fund on and they're pick being, we give you less. Right. and so you're like, well this is ripe for the taking. Yeah. Because self-important. You know, like the original pitch it was in there was like basically never a history of the world.(00:35:49):Have these guys been in charge? Yeah. You know, it's like nerd, you know, nerds in, in charge and there's an angry vibe, kind of an underlying insecurity, which is funny. You know, the, if, if you , when we went into production, the, the, the name of the you always have to have a holding company for a production. Right. And if you look at the end, it says, you know, s b H productions, that's the company that made Silicon Valley. It's because we were flying in and I, I looked down and I turned to my, I go, ah, the ship Brown Hills of Silicon Valley. And so when they, they said, what's the production name? I went, how about SB H productions and how funny. Yeah. So that was Silicon Valley. You know, one, one thing interesting about Silicon Valley I think was that we, we, Dave and I is, is, we met Thomas Middleditch, who was the star of it.(00:36:50):He had an animated show that we helped him with where he drew it and did all the voices. Oh, I good. Yeah. And so when we had this idea, I was like, well, let's write it for him. Okay. Because he was the right age. He was really heavy into gaming and we didn't know that age group, like kind of who, so we wrote it for him. As a matter of fact, the original name was Thomas Pecking of Richard's character because pecking is Thomas Mill ditches. Ma mom's maiden name pecking. Well, that's kind of funny. And so we wanted him, but HBO o didn't want him. Nobody wanted him. And I remember, you know, some thought, they thought, oh, he is too old or whatever. And I'm like, you know, I I tell you, you can't, you don't cast a 22 year old as a 22 year old these days.(00:37:43):He's gotta be older. So I remember he had like a full beard and we had like, we were doing casting. I said, Thomas shave the goddamn beard and get down there. And we, we kept running him up the flagpole and then every he was the best. Yeah. So, you know, so that, you know, that that was, and Silicon Valley was good because what not to, you know, that aren't we great? But we had done animated half hour, we had done live action features, you know, succeeded. This was live action tv. So we kind of like, okay guys, we've done it. You know, and which is, there aren't a lot of people who have succeeded in various moments, which it's inter to me, I often get asked like, well, what, what's, what's the, what's the length of, you know, this project and I don't care. Mm-Hmm. , if it's a half hour, you go, you, you make adjustments. If it's an hour, it, it's just, it's a, it's dr it's a dramatic concept. Right. If I got 15 minutes, I divide it up differently. Right. So we have the skills to do that if that from grinding it in these different arenas.Michael Jamin (00:39:00):Now how so, given that the industry's changed so much, so, you know, even since we, since both of us started, like what do you tell, what do you tell new writers? Or what, how do you see, like, how do you see making it now?John Altschuler (00:39:12):Yeah. That, that's tough because it's so different. It used to be, I would say easy to tell. Like I went, you know, to N C and I would say, well, go to la Just go to LA and start working. Because once you're working, you're around other creative people, you kind of, you know, you get in the mix a bit. You, you, you learn who's doing what. That's not LA's not LA anymore. You know, every people are in Atlanta, people are in New Mexico, PE every, everybody's spread out. Mm-Hmm. . So, and then the biggest difference is difference is that you would write a spec script just to show that like in TV or even in in features, you would write a feature script to sell. Right. For a million dollars. Okay. And there was such a hunger for the next big script that they were, oh my God, we were, nobody's officer NK Krinsky have a new speck.(00:40:08):And it's like, we haven't even got anything made. Okay. But they, they were like all on it. And then, or in TV you would write from a hit show, cheers, Seinfeld, you know, whatever in episode just to show what you could do. Cause everybody knew those shows. Right. So now you really can't write a spec because nobody sees any shows. I mean, I think Hill Silicon Valley's a hit. Right. And people have written specs of it, but most people haven't seen it. So you can't, you can't do that. You have to do original work. So the good and bad of the now is that you have to write an original pilot for tv. And actually, what I tell a lot of people starting to say, you gotta make something. Mm-Hmm. . Okay. And I, I'm not a fan of what, there are some really good examples of this, like insecure where Isa Ra makes her own stuff and then it transitions.(00:41:12):Okay. But what we've ended up with in general are, is a failure of craft, is that if everybody does, if you have to do everything mm-hmm. , the writing's not as good. The directing's not as good, everything's not as good. So there's a little bit of a sloppiness to the media a bit, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's worse. Mm-Hmm. . So I think now you gotta make something, you gotta either make a web series or do some pieces and put 'em out there. Yeah. So even if they're not seen at, unless you at least you have them and you can compile them and send them to somebody because nobody cat, sorry. Nobody knows what anything is. So you go, well here's my my pieces from my you know, reviewed on Collider or whatever. No. Nobody knows. Right. so, but you really gotta do it.Michael Jamin (00:42:12):Right. You gotta, you gotta put yourself on Hu Hustle. And, but I still think it's important to come to LA Cause I still think that this is where people are and you know, this is your, this, you, you get involved, you get, you have a graduating class of people. Yes. Whoever, whatever group you're in, that's your, that's the class you're in.John Altschuler (00:42:28):Well, I, I think you're right because now, but you're talking about writing specifically. Yes. Because Hollywood is still the brain center. Right. And this is where all the improv groups are and all that. So it's there for me, the MEU simply not there. Because what I always liked is that see, costume designers are talented and creative set designers are talented and creative. It, they used to all be around you. Now they can't afford to live in la Wow. So they live in Atlanta and the entry jobs are not as plentiful as they used to be. Like, I mean, they always wanted somebody to feed the beasts. Like, you could get a job as a pa, you could be an assistant that you could do, you know what you want. So that's a little different. But I do agree with you that if you're gonna live somewhere and you wanna write, LA is probably the best place to be.Michael Jamin (00:43:24):One thing I wanna mention is that even now, like I said, you're, you're so entrepreneurial, even now, it's like you don't wait for projects. So many people are like, oh, well, they're asking Hollywood for permission. Yeah. I make my script, read my script, you know, and even like now, you don't ask any anybody for permission. You're out there, you're getting, I know you're traveling to Europe to set some deals up. I'm like, you're constantly hustling for your next job. And look what you've done. You'd think that it would all f you know, nothing falls on your plate. You have to hustle for it,John Altschuler (00:43:53):You know? Yes. And the, you know, well, first of all, I'm, I'm more entertained by, by this I've moved a lot of the things that I'm doing and that David and I are doing to Europe mm-hmm. , you know, like for example, the Gangsters Guide to Sobriety, which you can see backwards. Okay. It was an idea that we could have sold as a, a pitch. And I was like, well, we already cracked it. Let's write it as a book. Because then everybody, ip ip, well then we own the ip. So now we, it's about this gangster and Irish gangster moved to America total re re drug addict dealer charming guy. It's very Scorsese like, but he basically got sober. And I liked all the stories of his horrid past, but I also liked his stories of getting clean. And so he kind of put those together.(00:44:51):It's like you go through 12 steps in aa. This has 12 chapters, so now we're long, we, we were going to do it in America. And then realize, you know what, he's Irish. Let's check out Ireland. Mm-Hmm. . And it's just a little bit fresher to have an Irish company backing us with Irish talent. Mm-Hmm. and doing it as a co-production. And so that's what we're doing in Italy. That's what we're doing in France. The I got the rights to this book, which you can see backwards burning down the house. Uhhuh , which is about the the pump movement in East Berlin before the fall of the wall. Right. And so I'm going to Germany in two weeks. Interesting. You know? Yeah. Because, you know, look, the fact is nobody's gonna do it for you. And the what I like about Europe is that you can talk about the projects more here. Issue one is always race. Issue two is gender identification is, then it's politic. And then, oh yeah. There's an idea in there somewhere. And that gets a little bit grinding when you just wanna talk about what, how cool this project is.Michael Jamin (00:46:06):I wanna mention by the way that your, that first book, the Gangsters Guide is based on a true story. So you had that guy. Yeah. And then, and it's like, that book is now available on Amazon. Everyone goes, check it out. Read it. It's, it's, it's fascinating.John Altschuler (00:46:18):So he, it, it, it's really great. And what's nice is that it's an elevating story, but it's, it, it's pretty damn harrowing. But it is, you know, you know, he survives. So there's a positivity to it. Like he says, like, I just want people to know because Ri Richie Stevens, who it's his life. Like I, I'm not telling anybody what to do. I don't have the answers. I just want them to know if somebody's fucked up as me, can survive and get clean and move on with his life. Anybody can,Michael Jamin (00:46:50):And these meetings in Europe, cuz you know, you're a writer, producer, but you're, you're, you're setting these up yourself. I mean, how are you reaching out to people?John Altschuler (00:46:57):You know what, here's the thing, luck, but also you just take what you have is that during the pandemic, for an odd reason, we ended up in Rome mm-hmm. . And because we, my wife's a psychologist. Our daughter was, hadn't gotten accepted to the school in high school, which Oh, that was great. And everything went freaking haywire, obviously. And so we're like, well, there's nothing going on here. Let's go to Rome. So we're in Rome and it's all locked down. Yeah. And somebody, oh, you should meet this woman Kissy Duggan. Now she was a standup comedian in la She's lived in Rome for over 20 years. She's married, has two kids. And and I connected with her and she started Women in film for Italy. Oh wow. And then I start kind of going, well wait, what's missing here? And I'm looking at Italy as a marketplace and I'm in it. Yeah. And people like me usually aren't there. Right. So people who go to Europe don't tend to have credits. They recognize. Yes. So it's, it it, well theyMichael Jamin (00:48:02):Recognize you. I mean No, not you. They recognize your work.John Altschuler (00:48:05):They recognize my work. Right. Yes. That's not who usually shows up. Right. Usually it's, it's people who have failed and are trying to go, oh. Whereas I'm going, you know what, what if we do this as an Italian American co-production? But Italy first, like I, these twins who I worked with a lot, one of them lived in bologna for seven years working in Tati. And his job was to come in and help turn Ducati. Right. Now, if you spend any time in Italy, it's, it's, it's wonderful and ridiculous because they are the most inefficient society ever and the most blessed. So you sit there and you go like, well, they gotta change, but they don't wanna change and they don't know how to change. Right. And that conflict makes for a really good comedic stew.Michael Jamin (00:48:58):Interesting.John Altschuler (00:48:59):So, you know, like we, we took a biotech project that was really ripe for America and we're like, you know what? We were, you know, while I was in Europe, went to London, met with this great company called Rough Cut. And he is like, it's biotech do it in Cambridge. So we're like, okay, let's set it in Cambridge cuz it's a little more, you know, sounds jaded, but we've kind of . It's not that we don't love doing stuff here, but we've done it. Right. You know, so it's kinda like, all right, well let's do another TV show here. Eh, this is all like, kind of fresh and fun. And also there's a real shortage of writers in Europe. Mm-Hmm. . So you're kinda like, okay. You know, it's just, it's just a fun vibe. Like why I like talking to students is why I like being in Europe is that there's kind of a, you're bringing people along for the ride. IsMichael Jamin (00:49:54):Krinsky going with you on this next trip?John Altschuler (00:49:56):He is not, you know, the, the, he, he is very tolerant of this is all just my crazy bo I get bored easily and Dave's just real like, ah, that sounds great. So yeah. Cause I kinda, it's sort of free moving, like, okay, I'm doing this, you know. But I would say that Dave is 105% supportive of my European adventures.Michael Jamin (00:50:26):So you have a lot of meetings set up then, basically.John Altschuler (00:50:28):Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like, I'm gonna be in Berlin for a week and then what's kind of nice about Europe is that the Italian company, they come to Berlin. There's the Bur Berlin Alley. It's a film, European film market in Berlin, then it's Venice, then it's Khan. Right. Rome and then the American Film Market. And so they just sort of, and that's how business is done. Right. So I'm meet, I work with this Luxembourg producer, Bernard Micheaux. He has a mo, he, he got two Academy Award nominations for documentary called Collective. That was great. And he's probably, there's a good chance he'll get an Academy Award nomination for his new movie Corsage Uhhuh . But it's all fun. Yeah. I mean, I know it sounds stupid, but you know, I didn't drive a car without air conditioning across the country and then work as a pa three years to be miserable. Right, right. And you know, we, we've, I don't know if this is untoward, Michael, but I've had this conversation where you, you do everything possible to figure out how to break into the business and then everything possible, figure out how to get outMichael Jamin (00:51:37):. Yes. That's, I mean, I've heard Yes, that's, yes. There's some truth to that . That's so funny. Wow. Wow. This is so interesting. So is there any other, any other advice you, you, you can share with people who are listening to this? I mean, I think you're so, he's such an interesting person to talk to. And like I said, you've been a great boss but a great friend over over the years. But it's because you also, like I said, have this entrepreneurial spirit where you're not doing it the way everyone else is doing necessarily. So,John Altschuler (00:52:08):Well, you know what, here's the thing. On one hand, being off the grid in my outlook has sometimes hurt Dave and I. Cause I kind of, I kind of lead, you know, and Dave is okay with that, you know. But as Dave points out, we wouldn't have anything if you didn't kind of like, well here's the even comedically you worked on King Hill with me. Everything has to be turned on its head. Okay. So if you, you, you got it. Everybody thinks this. Well no, let's do that. Right. And to me, that's the essence of comedy. That's the epi essence of drama. One of the problems I have with entertainment now is that there's this weird belief that everybody, that there's a right and a wrong and , I'm always go, everything's wrong. You know, you think those, you think this is good. Guess what? Oh, you think it's bad? Guess what? Throwing curve balls. Right. which is what I like to see. I like being surprised.Michael Jamin (00:53:09):Yeah.John Altschuler (00:53:09):So now, so the only advice I have is that it's what you always hear. You go, well write, write what you know, what the hell is right. What you know me Well now more than ever, it has to be specific. It has to be your story. Mm-Hmm. your journey. It's the only thing that you own. Yeah. Is your mindset and your experience. So you mine that. Now Jeremy, you probably had to listen to, you know, I talk and like every, like one time my judge goes, we got 150 episodes outta what pisses John Al Schuler off. And it's kinda true. HeMichael Jamin (00:53:49):Say that .John Altschuler (00:53:50):Yeah. He's like, because I'd sit there and I'd go, you know what veterinarians, they piss me off. And so I funnel my experience of taking my cat and them going WellMichael Jamin (00:54:03):That's so funny that he said that. But, but, but that was your, that's always been your take. It's your even on, even on Lopez, when we work together, it's it's like your, your take on what's going on in society. It was like, and, and the absurdity and that,John Altschuler (00:54:16):Well, everything, everything absurd. Cuz people, like, sometimes the the tone of what we do doesn't make sense to people. Because if you read just the synopsis of King Hill episodes, they'd sound, someone would sound pretty horrible. Uhhuh , they'd sound like offensive. But we're not in the offensive business. Okay. We're in the entertainment business. And so if there is a message, it's gotta be at least two or three levels deep. Yeah. You know, that's another problem is that people are coming out swinging with like, well this is my episode, this is my series about racism being bad. Uhhuh . Well that means that you're under the impression that there is a large population that thinks racism is good. Right. Okay. Well that's cuz you don't know anything. Like I lived in a trailer park and actually I have a whole, we have a project to imagined based on when I was 15, I lived in a mobile home that I owned by myself.(00:55:19):And I didn't see how the other half lived. I lived how the other half lived. And guess what, they're not a bunch of racist, horrible people that are gonna shoot. Now, they may shoot you , but there's, but there's a good and bad to them, to them running around with guns is then you start going, you know what, there's a human experience that is universal. And one of the problems is everybody these days has their team. And I don't like teams. You know, I, I I really hate teams. I don't think, you know, liberals like they drive me fucking nuts. Mm-Hmm. right wing. Like I like And it's, this used to be the job of comedy is that you're supposed to make fun of power. Yeah. Okay. Right. Well, you know, it's like, you know, the Matt and Trey from South Park, the, they're really nice and they're really great guys. Cause they're like, yeah, you probably get asked a lot, what side are you on? Mm-Hmm. . And it's like, I'm on the side of comedy. Right. It's not like comedy is a religion to me. I think it matters. I think it has to be cared for. And when I see people thinking that comedy means getting an applause line on a late night show, cuz you go Trump mad, that's not comedy. Right. You know, you gotta work.Michael Jamin (00:56:37):Interesting. That's wonderful. What? Yeah, I mean, I even Lopez, season two, it was, it was all about his quest for relevance. And we're like, what does that even mean,John Altschuler (00:56:47):? Well you, but you know what it, what it meant to me was everybody's trying, like, the world changed. Okay. Yeah. And he, he, there he is like 60 years old or whatever, and the world changed. And he was relevant because he existed. Right. Okay. And you were on tv, it was like, Seinfeld. Why did people watch? Cause it's on tv. Okay. Then relevance. Relevance became this phrase where Well, okay, but what's rel because there was no other metric. Right? There weren't, there weren't ratings, there weren't, people weren't, these companies weren't trying to make money. It was all about relevance. Yeah. So, if you remember, that was part of the, the comedy of nobody knows what relevance means yet. That's what was driving everybody.Michael Jamin (00:57:31):Yeah. We had fun that season. That was fun. Really was a great,John Altschuler (00:57:34):Okay. Well, well to your Michael Jamin is not only him and his partner Sievert, they're pros. Okay. Now, what is a pro and a pro is somebody who has the skills to do whatever you want them to do. Okay. So if you want something hacky and crappy and they're working for you, right. They'll do it. They'll do a really good version of it. But if you don't want something hacking and crappy, they can do that. They have the skills to do what you want. So you guys have always been a delight to work with, but also specifically on the set because you, you're, you know that you're quick. Yeah. You're quick. And it, the, the interesting thing, cuz I'm like, you guys, when I work for other people, they're the boss. Yes. I have no problem with that. I have no problem. As a matter of fact, my wife is like, like if I could work for myself, I would a hundred percent do it.(00:58:33):Cause then I wouldn't have the headaches of running things. But in our business, you often work for assholes who are unhappy and don't wanna go home to their wives. So you're, you're, you're, you're stuck. But you guys are always great because, you know, you have the skills, you're funniest shit. But we never, we always knew eight, you don't, you're not gonna try to e stab us in the back, but if it had to be done, you were gonna get it done. Yeah. So professionalism is key. But you, you guys wrote one of my favorite scripts ever, which was theMichael Jamin (00:59:08):What wasJohn Altschuler (00:59:08):That? The of the, the the garden. Now if you read that, you should, you should reread it because you did not understand how good it was. I remember, I remember you turning it in like, and, and you know, everybody's self-effacing when they turn something in. Right. But you were like, eh, you know, you and Steve were like, and if you reread that, you could be nothing but proud because it's like Anir story. Yeah. And it just builds and builds to the point where Bobby and Hank have murdered this thing. They gotta cover it up, but it's beautifully written.Michael Jamin (00:59:48):And Hank is selling out his son. .John Altschuler (00:59:51):. Exactly. You know, but you, you took him along for the ride. So yeah, no, you guys are, you, you're, you're truly, I don't know, pros, IMichael Jamin (01:00:02):Say this, I say this a lot. It's like the job of anybody who's not the job of showrunners is the hardest job there is. And it's stressful. And so everyone else is, my opinion of everyone else's job is to make the best version of the show that the showrunner wants to make. Right. And everything else is subjective. But who's to say it's better or worse? It doesn't matter. Your job is to serve the showman. They get to decide and, and great. It works out great if you can, as soon as you can accept that you'll be happy.John Altschuler (01:00:28):Well, and, and that was one of the big problems in our industry, is that nobody knows how shows get on the air. Mm-Hmm. . So they don't realize that when you get right down to it, if you are gonna hire somebody, all that matters is the showrunner. Right. Cause there are great writers, but you don't know how the script got there. So many people have gotten good jobs off of scripts that Dave and I had to write from beginning to end, but our name's not on it.Michael Jamin (01:01:01):You know, I I've heard that complaint from other store runners on other shows as well. So you're not, soJohn Altschuler (01:01:05):What happens is, like, remember everybody off of Seinfeld got these huge deals, but all that matters is Larry David, you know, and it was like, you know, the, and the the other thing that's kind of funny is that we would be asked to do a lot of writers round tables. Okay. Where, you know, big, big comedians, a big movies. And they'd ask, and they'd get tables together where you go through the script and pitch jokes on 'em. Okay. And they, Hey, do you know some good people that you could bring in? I'd go, well, yeah. And I one, this was literally the, the, my response and the answers like, well, do you want the guys and the girls the every literally, cause we had a lot of women, they're like, do you want the people who actually can deliver? Or do you want names? Mm-Hmm. . Oh, we want namesMichael Jamin (01:01:51):. He said that to you.John Altschuler (01:01:54):Yes. It's like all they want is to go, whoa. Yeah, we got, we got Neil Simon. Yeah. We've got the ghost of William Faulkner. We've got, you know, they, they don't want people to actually nail it because, so the inside of a staff is, it's inside baseball that nobody really knows what's going on.Michael Jamin (01:02:15):It's funny you say that. Oh no. Oh, it's so heartbreaking. John Altschuler (01:02:20):. It's a tough, ugly business.Michael Jamin (01:02:22):It really is. Well, that's a good place to end. John it. Thank you so much. Let's plug your book again so that people can go out and get it on Amazon. There it is Backwards.John Altschuler (01:02:32):The Gangsters Guide to Sobriety My Life in 12 Steps.Michael Jamin (01:02:36):Yep. Go out and run it. I gotta copy you in my house. Was great. So yeah, John, thank you again so much. It's and I'll see, you can tell k Crisco I'm gonna have from on next at some point just to, so we get the, the other version of the story.John Altschuler (01:02:48):Yeah, exactly. What, what he said. What?Michael Jamin (01:02:50):Yeah. . Why would he say that? . All right man. Thank you so much everyone. Thank you. It was a fun episode. Thank you for listening. And yeah, until the next week. Thanks so much. Bye-Bye.Phil Hudson (01:03:02):This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok at @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

Richie Stephens is an actor who often plays hardened gangsters and criminals. This comes easily for Stephens, as at one point in his life, he was a drug trafficker, kidnapper, drug addict, and alcoholic. For a long time, his life was the classic tale of a man trying to run from his past. John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky are screenwriters who co-created and executive produced the Emmy-winning series, Silicon Valley. Instagram: @richieactor Special thanks to our sponsors: Framebridge It's so easy - frame your photos or send someone the perfect gift. Go to Framebridge.com and use promo code ONE to save an additional 15% off your first order.  PATREON SHOUT OUTS: Mercedes Cusick LMFT, Website: www.mercedescusick.com, IG: @recoverhealbloom Check Out How To Do The Pot Thanks to Kathleen Hahn Cute Booty Lounge is made right here in the USA, by women and for women. The company is incredible, female, and minority-owned and all of their leggings make makes your booty look amazing. Go to https://cutebooty.com/ today! Embrace your body, love your booty! The Student Performance Podcast: In these episodes we dive deep into the science of concepts that you never knew had such a big impact on your wellbeing as a student. Things like exercise, meditation, sleep, nutrition, cold-exposure all of which will not only transform your life in the classroom but will help you live a more fulfilled life outside of it as well.” Join our Patreon: Become an Only One In The Room patron by joining us on Patreon! Starting at only $5.00 per month, you'll get bonus content, access to outtakes that the general public will NEVER see, extremely cool merch, and depending on what tier you get, monthly hang time with Scott and Laura. Join our Patreon today at https://www.patreon.com/theonlyonepodcast Be sure not to miss our weekly full episodes on Tuesdays, Scott Talks on Wednesdays & Sunday Edition every Sunday by subscribing to the show wherever you listen to podcasts.  We love hearing from you in the comments on iTunes and while you're there don't forget to rate us, subscribe and share the show! All of us at The Only One In The Room wish you safety and wellness during this challenging time. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome back to the Rock 'n Roll Ghost Podcast. On this week's episode, the Ghost speaks with actor/author Richie Stephens (NCIS, Blue Bloods) about his book The Gangster's Guide To Sobriety, which details his criminal background along with his decline into alcoholism and drug addiction. Stephens discusses the real life exploits detailed in the book, his acting history, as well as the upcoming TV series adaptation of the book by Silicon Valley co-creators Dave Krinsky and John Altschuler. Links: Richie Stephens The Gangster's Guide To Sobriety --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/brett-hickman/support

Adam gives a recap on going to Laguna Seca for Monterey Car Week where he gave legendary racer, Bob Garretson, a chance to revisit the car he once ran. He tells Bryan and Gina about the atrocity he witnessed when he discovered the worst person in the world. The gang talks about raw tortillas and early back-to-school days before taking a deep dive into 1976's ‘Vigilante Force'. THANKS FOR SUPPORTING TODAY'S SPONSORS: Geico.com SoloStove.com enter ADAM Con-Cret.com/PODCAST K12.com/PODCAST

Writer's John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky come in the studio to talk about their new book, ‘The Gangster's Guide to Sobriety: My Life in 12 Steps'. They describe their experience writing the book with Richie Stephens, an Irish gangster turned actor/writer. They talk about getting their start as writers, how they met Mike Judge, and their experience writing for ‘King of the Hill'. Gina Grad reports the news of the day including: Anne Heche's 2001 memoir being auctioned off for hundreds of dollars, Dennis Rodman saying he'll go to Russia to seek Brittney Griner's release, Deshaun Watson being fined $5 million, LA strippers petitioning to be represented by Actors' Equity union, Idris Elba not casting his daughter in a movie, and the rise of ‘quiet quitting'. THANKS FOR SUPPORTING TODAY'S SPONSORS: Geico.com SoloStove.com enter ADAM Con-Cret.com/PODCAST K12.com/PODCAST

Richie Stephens became an alcoholic and a petty criminal as a teenager growing up in Ireland. He became a drug addict and then a drug trafficker as his life spiraled out of control. The Irishman eventually ended up in San Francisco where he joined a Chinese gang. He nearly ended his own life before realizing that his addiction was at the heart of his self-destructive ways. A journey to sobriety and a trip down the state of California to Hollywood led to Richie Stephens becoming an actor where today (of course) he often plays criminals. Stephens tells the incredible story of his life with co-authors John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky in the new book "The Gangster's Guide to Sobriety: My Life in 12 Steps."The coming together of the authors and the writing of the book is an incredible story in and of itself. It's now being developed as a TV series. That's because Altschuler and Krinsky are successful Hollywood writers and producers known for creating and running high-profile TV shows including creating the successful series Silicon Valley. During this podcast, Altschuler and Stephens tell that story along with tales from Stephens' life and lessons learned on Stephens' path to sobriety. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this very special format-breaking episode, Howard's old bosses John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky (The Goode Family, Beavis & Butthead, Silicon Valley) come on the show with a very special guest in tow: Richie Stephens. Richie is a genuine former Irish Gangster turned sober television star with a life story that will you leave your jaw on the floor. Hear some of those stories on today's episode, and go read his book "The Gangster's Guide to Sobriety: My Life in 12 Steps" for the rest! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Con la misión de llevar las marcas correctas a los consumidores correctos en el momento y lugar ideal, “Ecom Ventures” nace como un intermediario que conecta marcas con los consumidores finales mediante el poder del marketing digital. Conoce la historia completa de Juan Martitegui en esta edición de Maestros del Escalamiento junto a Daniel Marcos. PODCAST TIMESTAMPS   1:09 Daniel Marcos nos da bienvenida a una nueva edición de Maestros del Escalamiento junto a Juan Martitegui, miembro del capítulo de EO Buenos Aires. 1:54 Ecom Ventures funciona como un intermediario entre marcas o productos centrados en el consumidor que mediante diferentes estrategias y marketing digital las conectan con el usuario final en el lugar y momento adecuado. 2:33 Nos comenta, que su empresa en un modelo completamente remoto con 130 colaboradores fijos o eventuales con presencia en casi 20 países. 3:28 Juan nos comparte su fracaso favorito fue hacer cientos de modelos y propuestas que funcionaban en papel pero que no lograban venderse por lo que cambió su enfoque a trabajar en propuestas que no sólo funcionaran en papel, sino también en la realidad. 5:36 Es miembro de EO desde 2015 con el objetivo de hacer el curso de EMP, sin embargo, al entrar, descubrió otras paralelas como los foros, las conferencias y la gente y que gracias a ello ha podido lograr mucho más en sus empresas, así como en su persona. 8:36 En su opinión, EO le ha dado la posibilidad de ver como ha avanzado su negocio a lo largo del tiempo pero que también le ha brindado un grupo que lo entiende como persona, emprendedor y empresario en situaciones muy particulares a diferencia de otros grupos de amigos que no pueden ser igual de empáticos. 10:49 Su día comienza haciendo ejercicio por la mañana, convive con su familia y medita para finalmente de camino al trabajo escuchar un podcast o algún audiobook. 14:53 Juan nos platica que los libros que más ha regalado son: “The Ultimate Sales Machine: Turbocharge Your Business with Relentless Focus on 12 Key Strategies” (Chet Holmes, 2007), “Influence: Science and Practice” (Robert Cialdini, 1984), “El caballero de la armadura oxidada” (Robert Fisher, 1987) 15:33 El poder descubrir alguna nueva forma de ver las cosas y hacerlas funcionar, así como encontrar una solución diferente, es de las cosas que más disfruta de ser emprendedor. 17:17 Por igual, considera que los ir y venir a nivel emocional es lo que el considera, que ha sido lo más difícil de ser emprendedor. 18:25 La publicidad de respuesta directa, así como el manejo de social media / marketing digital, así como pensar algorítmicamente para hacer funcionar esa comunicación es uno de los factores que más le ha ayudado a escalar su negocio. 19:33 Por igual, nos recomienda leer “Wizard of Ads” (Roy Williams, 1998) y “Thinking in Bets: Making Smarter Decisions When You Don't Have All the Facts” (Annie Duke, 2018) así como aprender cómo funcionan los algoritmos detrás de las plataformas como método para aprender marketing digital 22:58 ¿Cuál es la habilidad única de Juan? Aprender a trabajar con equipos a freelance para sus estrategias de marketing. 23:28 Recomienda ampliamente ver “Silicon Valley” (Mike Judge, John Altschuler, Dave Krinsky, 2014) así como las películas del género “robo / atracos” 25:20 Considera que una compra que le ha cambiado la vida es una cinta para guardar la pluma de su ipad junto al mismo. 26:00 SI tuviera la oportunidad de decirle algo al mundo es que: “hoy mejor que ayer y peor que mañana” 26:36 En su opinión, considera que uno de sus hábitos raros es bañarse con agua fría por las mañanas. 30:43 Cree que una opción errónea que tiene la gente de él es que vive en la panacea al decir que no tiene empleados sino freelancers 31:14 Nos platica de su paso por AISEC en su juventud, así como el que hoy en día, gran parte de su plantilla son pertenecientes a la organización. 35:28 ¿Cómo es la cultura de su empresa? 36:50 Si pudiera darle un consejo a su versión de cuando empezó a emprender es que los negocios grandes se hacen con constancia y dedicación a la solución del mismo problema. 38:50 Al pensar en éxito, Juan piensa en hacer lo que quiere, cuando quiere, con quien quiere y todas las veces que quiera, así como tomar 39:12 Cree que sus mejores decisiones de negocios ha sido empezar Ecom Ventures con su socia actual 39:35 Cree que su mejor inversión en tiempo y dinero ha sido siempre, tomar capacitaciones y trainings, así como invertir en sí mismo 39:57 Cuando se siente abrumado o fuera de foco, Juan trata de cambiar su ambiente mental pues considera que, impacta en lo físico 42:03 Daniel menciona que el escalamiento es mental antes que físico, a lo que Juan responde que, leyendo, haciendo ejercicios mentales, tener conversaciones consigo mismo y con otros miembros de su foro. 43:12 A los nuevos emprendedores les recomienda que no subestimen entender de la operación de su negocio. 44:26 Despedida y agradecimientos.     INFO FINAL   Conoce más de Juan Martitegui en: LinkedIn   Conoce más de “Ecom Ventures” en: Sitio Web LinkedIn   Conoce más de EO en: LinkedIn    

Happy Valentine’s Day everyone, we hope at the least you had a good evening snuggling up with your favourite movie.Starting off this week, DJ tells us about the results of the latest Celebrity Worship Awards. Who won? Which actor is deserving of our endless praise? Buck and Professor are sceptical, but DJ jumps right in to tell us all about the Oscars.Buck wants to leave the planet to escape the Oscars, so he’s been looking into the newest Solar Orbiter. This probe will be looking at the Sun’s poles. Maybe the weather is better away from the equator?Professor has been binge watching Mythic Quest: Raven’s Banquet, the new television show from Ubisoft, Apple TV, and the team behind It’s Always Sunny. Professor might be geeking out a little about having the burdens and struggles of being a game developer shown on TV.The Nerds talk about their games of the week, then finally we have the Shout outs, Remembrances, Birthdays and Events of Interest. This week we’re recommending Epigraphy, a poetry podcast Buck hopes to take a shot at. Check back soon to find out if he can poet as well as he can podcast.Oscars 2020 winners and losers- https://deadline.com/2020/02/2020-oscars-winners-list-92-academy-awards-1202855067/Solar Orbiter blasts off-https://phys.org/news/2020-02-solar-orbiter-blasts-capture-1st.htmlThe Story of Mythic Quest-https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/how-ubisoft-created-fake-video-game-at-center-apples-mythic-quest-1277134Games PlayedDJ– Ironsight - https://store.steampowered.com/app/715220/Ironsight/Rating – 2/5Professor- Nyheim - https://store.steampowered.com/app/572300/Nyheim/Rating – 3.5/5Buck- Scrabble - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ScrabbleRating – 4.5/5Other topics discussedJudy Garland (American actress, singer and dancer. During a career that spanned 45 years, she attained international stardom as an actress in both musical and dramatic roles, as a recording artist, and on the concert stage. She appeared in more than two dozen films for MGM and is best remembered for her portrayal of Dorothy Gale in The Wizard of Oz (1939).- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judy_GarlandJudy (2019 movie about Judy Garland starring Renee Zellweger)- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4ynUq8TjYAJames Corden & Rebel Wilson appearing in cat suits- https://www.theguardian.com/film/shortcuts/2020/feb/13/why-james-corden-and-rebel-wilson-should-have-stuck-up-for-catsBrad Pitt’s children- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Pitt#ChildrenBillie Eilish's Rendition of Yesterday for In Memorium- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKmqtaxIS3YEminem's Oscar's Performance- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvSx_1WVWiMSolar Flare (a sudden flash of increased brightness on the Sun, usually observed near its surface and in close proximity to a sunspot group.)- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_flareMythic Quest: Raven's Banquet (American comedy web television series starring Rob McElhenney for Apple TV+.)- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythic_Quest:_Raven%27s_BanquetOther cast members in Mythic Quest: Raven's Banquet- Danny Pudi as Brad Bakshi, head of monetization - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Pudi- Imani Hakim as Dana, game tester - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imani_Hakim- Ashly Burch as Rachel, game tester - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashly_BurchThe Social Network (2010 American biographical drama film directed by David Fincher and written by Aaron Sorkin.)- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Social_NetworkSilicon Valley (American comedy television series created by Mike Judge,John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky, that premiered on April 6, 2014, on HBO.)- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Valley_(TV_series)Maslow's hierarchy of needs (a theory in psychology proposed by Abraham Maslow in his 1943 paper "A Theory of Human Motivation" in Psychological Review.)- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needsApple is now worth 1.3 trillion Dollars- https://www.investopedia.com/news/apple-now-bigger-these-5-things/World Turtle ((also referred to as the Cosmic Turtle or the World-bearing Turtle) is a mytheme of a giant turtle (or tortoise) supporting or containing the world.)- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_TurtleMovies David Bowie acted in- Labyrinth (1986 musicaldark fantasy film directed by Jim Henson, with George Lucas as executive producer, based upon conceptual designs by Brian Froud.) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinth_(1986_film)- The Prestige (2006 thriller film directed by Christopher Nolan and written by Nolan and his brother Jonathan, based on the 1995 novel by Christopher Priest.) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prestige_(film)Epigraphy (TNC podcast)- Website - https://thatsnotcanon.com/epigraphypodcast- Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/7IUpBuecJui5S8OMW8PBGI?fbclid=IwAR1mUKVf6WHcU5x0zaGX3CX6JfeNWdw5jSPsXCRvmVRTWbh-MR1gkIiJxS4Shout Outs5 February 2020 – Global Heat record smashed again. - https://www.sciencealert.com/2020-has-barely-started-and-we-ve-already-had-another-global-heat-record?fbclid=IwAR1BlvNWUzdef8pI3NdvNvPtblFXSk5Sf_4X9Rt3g7nZODwpya7ZlJV1vC4- https://climate.copernicus.eu/surface-air-temperature-january-2020According to the Copernicus Climate Change Service (C3S), a band of countries stretching from Norway to Russia, temperatures were an unprecedented 6°C above the same 30-year benchmark. Temperatures in January 2020 were above the 1981-2010 average over most of Europe. They were exceptionally high for the time of year in the north and east, in a band spreading eastward and south-eastward from Norway to Russia, with values more than 6ºC above average in many places. Exceptional above-average temperatures were not confined to Europe but extended over almost all of Russia. Temperatures were also much above average over most of the USA and eastern Canada, over Japan and parts of eastern China and Southeast Asia, over the state of New South Wales in Australia and over parts of Antarctica.9 February 2020 – Paula Kelly passed away – https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/paula-kelly-dead-sweet-charity-actress-dancer-was-76-1277809Paula Kelly the actress, singer and dancer who starred in the film version of Sweet Charity and earned an Emmy nomination for her turn on Night Court. Kelly also appeared in such movies as The Andromeda Strain (1971), and Soylent Green (1973) among others. Kelly earned an Emmy nomination in 1984 for portraying public defender Liz Williams on the first season of the NBC sitcom Night Court and received another in 1989 for playing Theresa, one-half of a lesbian couple, on the ABC miniseries The Women of Brewster Place. "The only time I feel complete expression is when I'm dancing," Kelly said in a 1968 interview before she embarked on the movie. "Then, I have no problems, no worries, no hang-ups. I feel I could do anything in the world." She died at the age of 77 in Whittier, California.10 Febuary 2020 – Apple fined 0.002 per cent of its worth - https://www.news.com.au/technology/gadgets/mobile-phones/apple-fined-0002-per-cent-of-its-worth-for-slowing-down-everyones-phone-without-telling-them/news-story/3d799b2cc0ba7848455db0e38a5c90b3France’s Directorate General of Competition, Consumption and Repression of Fraud (DGCCRF) found the lack of transparency displayed by Apple in the past breached its guidelines. The company was fined €25 million ($A41 million). Apple also “committed the crime of deceptive commercial practice by omission”. The consumer electronics giant is worth almost two trillion dollars, so the $41 million fine is unlikely to be felt too heavily. The fine is around 0.002 per cent of the company’s worth. If you were given a similar fine, it would only cost you about $20.Remembrances10 February 1891 – Sofya Vasilyevna Kovalevskaya -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sofya_KovalevskayaBorn Sofya Vasilyevna Korvin-Krukovskaya, Russian mathematician who made noteworthy contributions to analysis, partial differential equations and mechanics. She was a pioneer for women in mathematics around the world – the first woman to obtain a doctorate (in the modern sense) in mathematics, the first woman appointed to a full professorship in Northern Europe and one of the first women to work for a scientific journal as an editor. According to historian of science Ann Hibner Koblitz, Kovalevskaia was "the greatest known woman scientist before the twentieth century" There are several alternative transliterations of her name. She herself used Sophie Kowalevski (or occasionally Kowalevsky) in her academic publications. She died from influenza, complicated by pneumonia at the age of 41 in Stockholm.10 February 2008 – Roy Richard Scheider - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_ScheiderAmerican actor and amateur boxer. Scheider gained fame for his leading and supporting roles in several iconic films from the 1970s through to the early-mid 80s, playing NYPD Detective Buddy "Cloudy" Russo in The French Connection (1971); NYPD Detective Buddy Manucci in The Seven Ups (1973); Police Chief Martin Brody in Jaws and Jaws 2; Doc in Marathon Man; choreographer and film director Joe Gideon (whose character was based on Bob Fosse) in All That Jazz (which was co-written and directed by Fosse); and Dr. Heywood R. Floyd in the 1984 film 2010, the sequel to 2001: A Space Odyssey. Scheider was also known for playing Captain Nathan Bridger in the science fiction television series seaQuest DSV (1993–1996). Described as "one of the most unique and distinguished of all Hollywood actors", Scheider was nominated for two Academy Awards, a Golden Globe Award and a BAFTA Award. He died from multiple myeloma at the age of 75 in Little Rock, Arkansas.10 February 2019 – Carmen Antimo Argenziano- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmen_ArgenzianoAmerican actor who has appeared in over 50 movies and around 100 television movies or episodes. He is best-known as the recurring character Jacob Carter/Selmak in the television series Stargate SG-1. He is also a lifetime member of the Actors Studio and was awarded the Los Angeles Drama Critics' Circle Award for his performance as Jack Delasante in Thomas Babe's A Prayer for My Daughter. He died at the age of 75 in Los Angeles, California.Famous Birthdays10 February 1824 –Samuel Plimsoll - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_PlimsollEnglish politician and social reformer, now best remembered for having devised the Plimsoll line (a line on a ship's hull indicating the maximum safe draught, and therefore the minimum freeboard for the vessel in various operating conditions). He was born in Bristol.10 February 1906 – Lon Chaney Jr. – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lon_Chaney_Jr.Creighton Tull Chaney, American actor known for playing Larry Talbot in the film The Wolf Man (1941) and its various crossovers, Count Alucard (Dracula spelled backward) in Son of Dracula, Frankenstein's monster in The Ghost of Frankenstein (1942), the Mummy in three pictures, and various other roles in many Universal horror films. He also portrayed Lennie Small in Of Mice and Men (1939) and supporting parts in dozens of mainstream movies. Originally referenced in films as Creighton Chaney, he was later credited as "Lon Chaney, Jr." in 1935, and after Man Made Monster (1941), beginning as early as The Wolf Man later that same year, he was almost always billed under his more famous father's name as Lon Chaney at the studio's insistence. Chaney had English,French, and Irish ancestry, and his career in movies and television spanned four decades, from 1931 to 1971. He was born in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma Territory.10 February 1929 – Jerry Goldsmith – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_GoldsmithAmerican composer and conductor most known for his work in film and television scoring. He composed scores for such films as Star Trek: The Motion Picture and four other films within the Star Trek franchise. He produced other albums such as Logan's Run, Planet of the Apes,The Omen, Alien, Poltergeist, Gremlins, Rudy, L.A. Confidential, Mulan, The Mummy, three Rambo movies & Explorers. In May 1997, with the release of Steven Spielberg’s The Lost World: Jurassic Park, he gained more popularity with his fanfare of the 1997 Universal Studios opening logo, which would be among the most iconic studio logo music of all time. He collaborated with some of film history's most accomplished directors, including Robert Wise, Howard Hawks, Otto Preminger, Joe Dante, Richard Donner, Roman Polanski, Ridley Scott, Michael Winner, Steven Spielberg, Paul Verhoeven, and Franklin J. Schaffner. Goldsmith was nominated for six Grammy Awards, five Primetime Emmy Awards, nine Golden Globe Awards, four British Academy Film Awards, and eighteen Academy Awards (he won only one, in 1976, for The Omen). He composed the Paramount Pictures Fanfare used from 1976 through 2011. He was born in Los Angeles, California.Events of Interest10 February 1940 – Puss gets the boot : The first Tom and Jerry Cartoon .- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puss_Gets_the_BootIt was directed by William Hanna,Joseph Barbera and Rudolf Ising, and produced by Rudolf Ising and Fred Quimby. As was the practice of MGM shorts at the time, only Rudolf Ising is credited. The short, Puss Gets the Boot, featured a cat named Jasper and an unnamed mouse, named Jinx in pre-production, and an African American housemaid named Mammy Two Shoes. Leonard Maltin described it as "very new and special [...] that was to change the course of MGM cartoon production" and established the successful Tom and Jerry formula of comical cat and mouse chases with slapstick gags. Matters changed, however, when Texas businesswoman Bessa Short sent a letter to MGM asking whether more cat and mouse shorts would be produced, which helped convince management to commission a series. A studio contest held to rename both characters was won by animator John Carr, who suggested Tom the cat and Jerry the mouse after the Christmas time drink. Carr was awarded a first-place prize of $50.10 February 1957 – Attack Of The Crab Monsters clawed its way to theatres. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_of_the_Crab_MonstersOn this day in 1957, Attack Of The Crab Monsters made audiences afraid to go back into the water. The feature starred Richard Garland and Pamela Duncan, and here's the plot summary: "Scientists become trapped on a shrinking island with intelligent, murderous giant crabs.” Attack of the Crab Monsters was Corman's most profitable production up to that time, which he attributed to the "wildness of the title," the construction of the storyline, the structuring of every scene for horror and suspense, and editing for pace. Corman has stated that the success of the film convinced him that horror and humor was an effective combination.10 February 1972 – Ziggy Stardust makes his earthly debut - https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/ziggy-stardust-makes-his-earthly-debutThe concert at London’s Toby Jug pub a relatively minor rocker named David Bowie became the spaceman Ziggy Stardust. “I’m going to be huge,” is what David Bowie told Melody Maker less than three weeks earlier and still six months prior to the release of the albumThe Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars. “And it’s quite frightening in a way, because I know that when I reach my peak and it’s time for me to be brought down it will be with a bump.” That last bit may have been a case of Bowie confusing his Ziggy persona with real life, but that was what put the act over in the first place. Any rock musician can put on a costume, but how many could have inhabited the identity of an androgynous Martian rock star come to Earth in its dying days so convincingly, so effortlessly.10 February 1996 – World Chess Champion Garry Kasparov loses game to computer. - https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/kasparov-loses-chess-game-to-computerAfter three hours, world chess champion Garry Kasparov loses the first game of a six-game match against Deep Blue, an IBM computer capable of evaluating 200 million moves per second. Man was ultimately victorious over machine, however, as Kasparov bested Deep Blue in the match with three wins and two ties and took home the $400,000 prize. An estimated 6 million people worldwide followed the action on the Internet. The February 1996 contest was significant in that it represented the first time a human and a computer had duked it out in a regulation, six-game match, in which each player had two hours to make 40 moves, two hours to finish the next 20 moves and then another 60 minutes to wrap up the game.IntroArtist – Goblins from MarsSong Title – Super Mario - Overworld Theme (GFM Trap Remix)Song Link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GNMe6kF0j0&index=4&list=PLHmTsVREU3Ar1AJWkimkl6Pux3R5PB-QJFollow us onFacebook- Page - https://www.facebook.com/NerdsAmalgamated/- Group - https://www.facebook.com/groups/440485136816406/Twitter - https://twitter.com/NAmalgamatedSpotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/6Nux69rftdBeeEXwD8GXrSiTunes - https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/top-shelf-nerds/id1347661094RSS - http://www.thatsnotcanonproductions.com/topshelfnerdspodcast?format=rssInstagram - https://www.instagram.com/nerds_amalgamated/General EnquiriesEmail - Nerds.Amalgamated@gmail.comRate & Review us on Podchaser - https://www.podchaser.com/podcasts/nerds-amalgamated-623195

On this episode of the Cinescape Magazine Movie Review Podcast, we review Johnny Knoxvilles newest film Action Point, Alex Garland's sci-fi movie Annihiliation and the Kaiju classic Rodan. Action Point (2018) R | 1h 25min | Comedy | 1 June 2018 (USA) A daredevil designs and operates his own theme park with his friends. Director: Tim Kirkby Writers: John Altschuler (screenplay by), Dave Krinsky (screenplay by) Stars: Johnny Knoxville, Brigette Lundy-Paine, Susan Yeagley Annihilation (2018) R | 1h 55min | Adventure, Drama, Horror | 23 February 2018 (USA) A biologist signs up for a dangerous, secret expedition into a mysterious zone where the laws of nature don't apply. Director: Alex Garland Writers: Alex Garland (written for the screen by), Jeff VanderMeer (based on the novel by) Stars: Natalie Portman, Jennifer Jason Leigh, Tessa Thompson Rodan (1956) Sora no daikaijû Radon (original title) Unrated | 1h 14min | Adventure, Drama, Horror | 6 August 1957 (USA) A large mining accident sets loose prehistoric Insects and giant pterosaur's on Japan. Director: Ishirô Honda Writers: David Duncan (english version), Takeshi Kimura Stars: Kenji Sahara, Yumi Shirakawa, Akihiko Hirata https://www.acoupleofaveragejoes.com/

On this episode of the Cinescape Magazine Movie Review Podcast, we review Johnny Knoxvilles newest film Action Point, Alex Garland's sci-fi movie Annihiliation and the Kaiju classic Rodan. Action Point (2018) R | 1h 25min | Comedy | 1 June 2018 (USA) A daredevil designs and operates his own theme park with his friends. Director: Tim Kirkby Writers: John Altschuler (screenplay by), Dave Krinsky (screenplay by) Stars: Johnny Knoxville, Brigette Lundy-Paine, Susan Yeagley Annihilation (2018) R | 1h 55min | Adventure, Drama, Horror | 23 February 2018 (USA) A biologist signs up for a dangerous, secret expedition into a mysterious zone where the laws of nature don't apply. Director: Alex Garland Writers: Alex Garland (written for the screen by), Jeff VanderMeer (based on the novel by) Stars: Natalie Portman, Jennifer Jason Leigh, Tessa Thompson Rodan (1956) Sora no daikaijû Radon (original title) Unrated | 1h 14min | Adventure, Drama, Horror | 6 August 1957 (USA) A large mining accident sets loose prehistoric Insects and giant pterosaur's on Japan. Director: Ishirô Honda Writers: David Duncan (english version), Takeshi Kimura Stars: Kenji Sahara, Yumi Shirakawa, Akihiko Hirata https://www.acoupleofaveragejoes.com/

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, hosts Christian Bladt, Nate Miller, Phil Svitek, and Jeff Graham break down episode 8. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn (Zach Woods) and Gregory's assistant M

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, hosts Christian Bladt, Nate Miller, Jeff Graham, and Phil Svitek break down episode 6. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn (Zach Woods) and Gregory's assistant M

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, hosts Christian Bladt, Nate Miller, Jeff Graham, and special guests Chris Aquilino & Rachel Rosenbloom break down episode 6. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, host Christian Bladt, Nate Miller, Phil Svitek, and Jeff Graham break down episode 5. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn (Zach Woods) and Gregory's assistant Mo

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, hosts Phil Svitek and Jeff Graham break down episode 4. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn (Zach Woods) and Gregory's assistant Monica (Amanda Crew) discover th

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, host  Christian Bladt, Nate Miller, Phil Svitek, and Jeff Graham break down episode 3. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn (Zach Woods) and Gregory's assistant M

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, host Christian Bladt, Nate Miller, Phil Svitek, and Jeff Graham break down episode 2. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn (Zach Woods) and Gregory's assistant Mo

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, host Christian Bladt, Nate Miller, and Phil Svitek break down episode 1. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn (Zach Woods) and Gregory's assistant Monica (Amanda

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, host  Christian Bladt, Nate Miller, and Jeff Graham break down episode 10. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn (Zach Woods) and Gregory's assistant Monica (Amand

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, host Phil Svitek, Christian Bladt, and Jeff Graham break down episode 9. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn (Zach Woods) and Gregory's assistant Monica (Amanda

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, hosts Christian Bladt, Nate Miller, and Jeff Graham break down episode 8. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn (Zach Woods) and Gregory's assistant Monica (Amanda

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, host Phil Svitek, Christian Bladt, Nate Miller, and Jeff Graham break down episode 7 with Suzanne Cryer. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn (Zach Woods) and Gre

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, host Phil Svitek and Jeff Graham break down episode 6. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn (Zach Woods) and Gregory's assistant Monica (Amanda Crew) discover tha

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, host Nate Miller, Christian Bladt, and Jeff Graham break down episode 5. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn (Zach Woods) and Gregory's assistant Monica (Amanda

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, host Brant Pinvidic, Christian Bladt, Nate Miller, and Jeff Graham break down episode 4. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn (Zach Woods) and Gregory's assistant

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, host Phil Svitek, Christian Bladt, and Jeff Graham break down episode 3 with Josh Brener. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn (Zach Woods) and Gregory's assistan

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, host Nate Miller, Phil Svitek, Jeffrey C Graham, and Christian Bladt break down episode 2. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn (Zach Woods) and Gregory's assista

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, hosts Phil Svitek and Jeff Graham break down episode 1. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn (Zach Woods) and Gregory's assistant Monica (Amanda Crew) discover th

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, host Michael Rippe, Michael Janak, and Quinn Scillian break down episode 10 of season 3 of Silicon Valley. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn (Zach Woods) and G

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, host Michael Rippe, Michael Janak, and Kelly McInerney breaks down episode 9 of season 3 of Silicon Valley. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn (Zach Woods) and

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, host Michael Rippe, Quinn Scillian, and Kelly McInerney breaks down episode 8 of season 3 of Silicon Valley. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn (Zach Woods) and

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, host Michael Rippe, Michael Janak, Quinn Scillian, and Jay Ellis breaks down episode 7 of season 3 of Silicon Valley. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn (Zach W

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, host Michael Rippe, Michael Janak, and Kelly McInerney breaks down episode 6 of season 3 of Silicon Valley. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn (Zach Woods) and

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, host Michael Rippe, Quinn Scillian, and Kelly McInerney breaks down episode 5 of season 3 of Silicon Valley. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn (Zach Woods) and

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, hosts Michael Janak, Jay Ellis, and Kelly McInerney breaks down episode 4 of season 3 of Silicon Valley. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn (Zach Woods) and Gre

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, host Michael Rippe, Michael Janak, Jay Ellis, and Kelly McInerney breaks down episode 3 of season 3 of Silicon Valley. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn (Zach

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, host Michael Rippe, Steve Kaufmann, Quinn Scillian, and Kelly McInerney breaks down episode 2 of season 3 of Silicon Valley. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, host Michael Rippe, Michael Janak, Jay Ellis, and Kelly McInerney breaks down episode 1 of season 3 of Silicon Valley. ABOUT SILICON VALLEY: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. Richard Hendricks (Thomas Middleditch) is a shy, reclusive programmer who works at a large internet company called Hooli. He is also developing a music app called Pied Piper in a live-instartup business incubator run by entrepreneur Erlich Bachman (T. J. Miller). After a rocky post-TED elevator pitch of Pied Piper to venture capitalist Peter Gregory (Christopher Evan Welch), Hendricks also shows his work to a pair of programmers at Hooli who mock him. Within hours, however, Hooli executive Donald "Jared" Dunn (Zach

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, host Jon Manganello, Quinn Scillian, JB Zimmerman and Kelly McInerney breaks down episode 10 of season 2 of Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. The series premiered on April 6, 2014, onHBO. The first season consisted of eight episodes. Follow us on http://www.Twitter.com/AfterBuzzTV "Like" Us on http://www.Facebook.com/AfterBuzzTV For more of your post-game wrap up shows for your favorite TV shows, visit http://www.AfterBuzzTV.com

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, hosts Jon Manganello, Kelly McInerney, and Quinn Scillian break down episode 9 of season 2 of Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. The series premiered on April 6, 2014, onHBO. The first season consisted of eight episodes. Follow us on http://www.Twitter.com/AfterBuzzTV "Like" Us on http://www.Facebook.com/AfterBuzzTV For more of your post-game wrap up shows for your favorite TV shows, visit http://www.AfterBuzzTV.com

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, host Kelly McInerney, Quinn Scillian, and Jon Manganello break down episode 8 of season 2 of Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. The series premiered on April 6, 2014, onHBO. The first season consisted of eight episodes. Follow us on http://www.Twitter.com/AfterBuzzTV "Like" Us on http://www.Facebook.com/AfterBuzzTV For more of your post-game wrap up shows for your favorite TV shows, visit http://www.AfterBuzzTV.com

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, host Kelly McInerney, Quinn Scillian, Jon Manganello, and special guest Napoleon Tavale break down episode 7 of season 2 of Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. The series premiered on April 6, 2014, onHBO. The first season consisted of eight episodes. Follow us on http://www.Twitter.com/AfterBuzzTV "Like" Us on http://www.Facebook.com/AfterBuzzTV For more of your post-game wrap up shows for your favorite TV shows, visit http://www.AfterBuzzTV.com

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, hosts Jon Manganello and Kelly McInerney break down episode 6 of season 2 of Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. The series premiered on April 6, 2014, onHBO. The first season consisted of eight episodes. Follow us on http://www.Twitter.com/AfterBuzzTV "Like" Us on http://www.Facebook.com/AfterBuzzTV For more of your post-game wrap up shows for your favorite TV shows, visit http://www.AfterBuzzTV.com

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, host JB Zimmerman, Jon Manganello, Kelly McInerney, and Quinn Scillian break down episode 5 of season 2 of Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. The series premiered on April 6, 2014, onHBO. The first season consisted of eight episodes. Follow us on http://www.Twitter.com/AfterBuzzTV "Like" Us on http://www.Facebook.com/AfterBuzzTV For more of your post-game wrap up shows for your favorite TV shows, visit http://www.AfterBuzzTV.com

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, host JB Zimmerman, Jon Manganello, Kelly McInerney, and Quinn Scillian discuss episode 4 of season 2 of Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. The series premiered on April 6, 2014, onHBO. The first season consisted of eight episodes. Follow us on http://www.Twitter.com/AfterBuzzTV "Like" Us on http://www.Facebook.com/AfterBuzzTV For more of your post-game wrap up shows for your favorite TV shows, visit http://www.AfterBuzzTV.com

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, hosts JB Zimmerman, Quinn Scillian, and Kelly McInerney break down episode 3 of season 2 of Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. The series premiered on April 6, 2014, onHBO. The first season consisted of eight episodes. Follow us on http://www.Twitter.com/AfterBuzzTV "Like" Us on http://www.Facebook.com/AfterBuzzTV For more of your post-game wrap up shows for your favorite TV shows, visit http://www.AfterBuzzTV.com

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, host Jon Manganello, Quinn Scillian, Jb Zimmerman, and Kelly McInerney break down episode 2 of season 2 of Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. The series premiered on April 6, 2014, onHBO. The first season consisted of eight episodes. Follow us on http://www.Twitter.com/AfterBuzzTV "Like" Us on http://www.Facebook.com/AfterBuzzTV For more of your post-game wrap up shows for your favorite TV shows, visit http://www.AfterBuzzTV.com

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, hosts JB Zimmerman, Jon Manganello, and Quinn Scillian break down episode 1 of season 2 of Silicon Valley with special guest Suzanne Cryer. Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. The series premiered on April 6, 2014, onHBO. The first season consisted of eight episodes. Follow us on http://www.Twitter.com/AfterBuzzTV "Like" Us on http://www.Facebook.com/AfterBuzzTV For more of your post-game wrap up shows for your favorite TV shows, visit http://www.AfterBuzzTV.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

AFTERBUZZ TV -- Silicon Valley edition, is a weekly "after show" for fans of HBO's Silicon Valley. In this show, hosts JB Zimmerman, Jon Manganello, and Quinn Scillian break down episode 1 of season 2 of Silicon Valley with special guest Suzanne Cryer. Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler and Dave Krinsky. The series focuses on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley. The series premiered on April 6, 2014, onHBO. The first season consisted of eight episodes. Follow us on http://www.Twitter.com/AfterBuzzTV "Like" Us on http://www.Facebook.com/AfterBuzzTV For more of your post-game wrap up shows for your favorite TV shows, visit http://www.AfterBuzzTV.com

Industry Leaders from the world of Beauty & Fashion providing thought provoking insights from Inspiring minds. Guests are interviewed on their experiences in both Fashion and Beauty and offer the Beauty Fashion and War audience guidance, wisdom and candor  Vanessa Helmer Bio International model scout and agent Vanessa Helmer has 30 years experience scouting, developing, managing and placing models with the world’s top international agencies. She has owned several successful agencies and is the owner and founder of ModelScouts.com. Vanessa has placed models with many of the world’s top modeling agencies including Elite Models, IMG Models, Ford Models, Wilhelmina, New York Models, L.A. Models, Next Management, Q Model Management, Fashion Management, Joy Models, Marilyn Agency, Models 1, Metropolitan Models, Louisa Models and many more. Her discoveries have appeared in all the major magazines including Vogue, Glamour, Harper's Bazaar, W, Numero, GQ, Details, Cosmopolitan, Elle, InStyle, and Seventeen, and have worked for the most prestigious clients including Armani, Gucci, Valentino, Dior, Louis Vuitton, Marc Jacobs, Coach, Prada Chanel, Burberry, YSL, Abercrombie & Fitch, Victoria’s Secret, Cover Girl, Clairol, Disney, CBS, Bravo, and Project Runway. Throughout Vanessa’s 30 year career she has managed the careers of hundreds of fashion and commercial models, male models, petite, plus size and child models, and fully understands the various aspects of the modeling industry from portfolio development, contract negotiations, the relationships between international and mother agencies, travel arrangements, overseas accommodations, work visa's in foreign countries, and much more. With the internet booming and an influx of modeling websites run by individuals who had never worked in the modeling industry, Vanessa realized a need for a safe, legitimate, and affordable way for new and experienced models to be seen by reputable model agents and industry professionals. So, in 2001 she developed and founded the online model scouting company ModelScouts.com. By offering aspiring models an opportunity to be seen by top modeling scouts, agents, and industry professionals in a secure, confidential, and inexpensive way, ModelScouts.com has grown to become the top choice of new and experienced models, including America’s Next Top Model Winner Nicole Linkletter and other ANTM Finalists, who are looking to begin or expand their careers into international markets. Education: Vanessa studied Law at Northwestern California University School of Law and Canadian Law and Business Administration at Athabasca University. She is a graduate of Hollingshead Business College and has a degree in Fashion Merchandising. Vanessa has also studied Business Management, Information Systems and Computer Applications, and Fine Art and Humanities through various independent programs. Professional Memberships: Member of the Better Business Bureau - A+ Rating
Awarded the Better Business Bureau Torch Award for 10 Years of Ethical Business Practice
New York Chamber of Commerce
Managers and Models Association (M.A.M.A.) Charities: Vanessa is active in and supports numerous animal rights charities including People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA), World Society for the Protection of Animals (WSPA), World Wildlife Federation (WWF), The Humane Society of the United States, Sea Shephard and others. Must Read’s: How to Become a Successful Commercial Model by Aaron Marcus Look Inside on Amazon - Click Here Description: You don't have to be tall, thin and beautiful to see yourself in newspaper, catalog, poster or billboard ads. Thousands of beautiful and real looking people are cast as commercial models throughout North America -- and they earn up to $250 an hour. This cookbook for commercial modeling will teach you the 10 things all successful actors and commercial models must know: -- The differences between agents, managers and casting directors -- The best and safest way to get children started in the industry -- How to use special techniques for go-sees (the audition for models) -- The best way to prepare before a photo session -- How to create attention getting head shots and composite sheets, etc. This book will save you years of trial and error. The author, Aaron Marcus, shares with you the information that has gotten him over 1100 acting and modeling bookings so far.  Favorite T.V. Show: Silicone Valley, HBO  http://www.hbo.com/silicon-valley#/ Description: Silicon Valley is an American television sitcom created by Mike Judge, John Altschuler, and Dave Krinsky. The series centers on six young men who found a startup company in Silicon Valley.The series premiered April 6, 2014, on HBO, airing on Sundays at 10:00 pm (Eastern Time). Technology That Rocks!   Favorite iOS App: Strava View iOS Stava App On iTunes - Click Here  http://www.strava.com/running-app Description: Strava GPS Cycling and Running App Strava lets you track your running and riding with GPS, join Challenges, share photos from your activities, and follow friends. Social Media Links:  Website: http://www.modelscouts.com Pinterest: http://www.pinterest.com/modelscouts Google +: https://plus.google.com/108474057797690011420 Model Scouts (Google +): https://plus.google.com/102809038928029572340 MySpace: http://www.myspace.com/model_scouts Twitter: http://twitter.com/modelscouts_com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/MODELSCOUTScom Phone: (888) 888-0512 - Toll Free Email: vanessa@modelscouts.com

On this episode of the Cinescape Magazine Movie Review Podcast, we review Johnny Knoxvilles newest film Action Point, Alex Garland's sci-fi movie Annihiliation and the Kaiju classic Rodan. Action Point (2018) R | 1h 25min | Comedy | 1 June 2018 (USA) A daredevil designs and operates his own theme park with his friends. Director: Tim Kirkby Writers: John Altschuler (screenplay by), Dave Krinsky (screenplay by) Stars: Johnny Knoxville, Brigette Lundy-Paine, Susan Yeagley Annihilation (2018) R | 1h 55min | Adventure, Drama, Horror | 23 February 2018 (USA) A biologist signs up for a dangerous, secret expedition into a mysterious zone where the laws of nature don't apply. Director: Alex Garland Writers: Alex Garland (written for the screen by), Jeff VanderMeer (based on the novel by) Stars: Natalie Portman, Jennifer Jason Leigh, Tessa Thompson Rodan (1956) Sora no daikaijû Radon (original title) Unrated | 1h 14min | Adventure, Drama, Horror | 6 August 1957 (USA) A large mining accident sets loose prehistoric Insects and giant pterosaur's on Japan. Director: Ishirô Honda Writers: David Duncan (english version), Takeshi Kimura Stars: Kenji Sahara, Yumi Shirakawa, Akihiko Hirata https://www.acoupleofaveragejoes.com/