Men of Steel

Marvel's The Incredible Hulk wanders around the desert and then stumbles into the middle of a barbecue and that interferes with Superman getting a milkshake. Hilarity ensues. But in all seriousness, this is a great comic! Join us for our discussion about it with Logan Crowley! Men of Steel Full Episode Originally aired: June 6, 2025 Edited by Sophia Ricciardi Scored by Geoff Moonen Overview In this episode of the podcast, hosts Case Aiken and Jmike welcome back guest Logan Crowley to delve into the thrilling crossover comic "The Incredible Hulk vs. Superman" from the DC vs. Marvel omnibus. They explore the art, storytelling techniques, and character dynamics within this blended comic universe, noting the pivotal roles of Hulk and Superman, and their contrasting origins. The narrative unfolds with Superman investigating seismic disturbances caused by the rampaging Hulk, leading to their first explosive encounter at a barbecue, and further complications arise with Lex Luthor's scheming. As the plot escalates, viewers witness an emotional crescendo culminating in a heart-wrenching conclusion. The hosts highlight the depth of the story and its portrayal of classic characters, while also inviting listeners to engage in their Patreon, follow Crowley's upcoming podcast "Single Bound," and join the community on Discord.   Notes ️ Podcast Introduction (00:00 - 10:26) Case Aiken announces the launch of Patreon for Certain POV Media Patreon location: patreon.com/certainpovmedia Executive producer acknowledgments: Carter Hallett, Sean Muir, Lee Greger, Memento Young, Logan Crowley, Joe Mastropiero, Nancy and Casey Aiken, and Adam Samtur (and Keith Lehtinen) Case and Jmike welcome returning guest Logan Crowley The episode focuses on 'The Incredible Hulk versus Superman' from the DC vs Marvel omnibus The hosts establish this crossover as a masterpiece that perfectly blends both comic universes ️ Comic Analysis: Structure & Setting (10:26 - 20:19) The story uses a blended universe with a framing device set in present day and flashback to the past Steve Rude's art praised for perfectly capturing both Jack Kirby and Joe Shuster styles The comic includes numerous Easter eggs (like 'Otisburg' reference) Story plugs a continuity hole in Hulk's history regarding his transformation method Timeline placement: for Hulk, after Metal Master story in Tales to Astonish; for Superman, between issues 4-5 of Man of Steel The omnibus includes extra material with notes and original art sketches Character Dynamics & Story Setup (20:20 - 30:00) Discussion of Hulk's varying intelligence levels throughout comic history Rick Jones identified as a crucial character in Hulk stories Story begins with a documentary on Hulk that Superman and Lois watch The narrative compares Superman and Hulk's origins (rockets and explosions) Flashback story begins with Hulk hiding in a cave and spontaneously transforming Superman described as being in his early years as a hero during this story ️ Plot Progression: First Half (30:01 - 39:33) Hulk goes on a rampage while Clark Kent interviews a seismologist Superman investigates unusual seismic activity caused by Hulk Their first meeting occurs at a barbecue Hulk interrupts Superman is battered by Hulk and thrown into space General Ross appears with corporate VIP Lex Luthor (with hair, Boss Hogg outfit) Lois Lane tracks down Rick Jones to get information about the Hulk Character Interactions (39:33 - 49:43) Rick Jones refuses to talk to Lois about the Hulk, showing his loyalty Superman meets Lois outside a drive-in, establishing the classic love triangle dynamic Banner and Kent meet without realizing each other's secret identities Lex Luthor flirts with Betty Ross while watching Hulk footage Lois wants to warn Betty about Luthor's questionable character Betty and Lois bond over having general fathers Conflict Escalation (49:43 - 59:15) Luthor creates a fake Hulk robot to frame the real Hulk Betty Ross appears to be kidnapped by 'Hulk' Bruce Banner transforms into Hulk to save Betty Superman arrives, sees Hulk standing over Betty, misinterprets the situation Epic fight sequence begins with Superman throwing Hulk into a cactus ravine Military fires on both heroes during their battle Luthor attempts to gain access to the gamma gun Resolution & Reflection (59:16 - 01:12:24) Superman and Hulk team up to destroy the dangerous gamma gun Fastball special scene: Superman throws Hulk at the gamma gun Luthor escapes consequences due to his wealth and status The story ends with a sad conclusion in the present day Betty Ross dies of radiation poisoning; Banner returns to his lonely existence Superman reflects on his missed opportunity to help Banner The hosts praise the emotional depth of the story and its perfect capture of both characters Logan shares information about his upcoming podcast 'Single Bound' The hosts provide links to their social media and recommend other podcasts Action items Unassigned Listeners should check out the Patreon at patreon.com/certainpovmedia for more content (01:00) Interested listeners should consider supporting Peter David's GoFundMe Listeners should follow Logan Crowley on Instagram at Token Hillbilly (01:08:02) Listeners can contact Logan about his new podcast at singleboundpod@gmail.com (01:08:30) Listeners can join the Discord server through links at certainpov.com (01:10:00) Listeners should check out the 'Books that Burn' podcast recommended by Case (01:11:05)  

Marvel's Most Wanted are here to deliver some Justice like Lightning! Case and Jmike reflect on the latest MCU entry, Thunderbolts*, with friend of the show, Joe Mastropiero. Overview In the latest episode of the podcast, hosts Case Aiken and Jmike Folson, along with guest Joe Mastropiero, delve into Marvel's Thunderbolts movie, connecting its themes to the recently released Superman trailer. They discuss the film's characters, including Yelena, Bucky, and the controversial Sentry, addressing how the characters' darker backstories lend themselves to a redemption arc that deviates from their comic origins. The hosts explore the movie's structure, its exploration of trauma through the lens of the Void character, and the significance of the Superman archetype in modern storytelling, highlighting a potential cultural shift towards more hopeful narratives. The episode concludes with updates about the podcast, including upcoming episodes and ways for listeners to engage through Discord and Patreon, while emphasizing the importance of community interaction in discussing these themes. Notes Introduction and Superman Trailer Discussion (00:00 - 15:45) Hosts Case Aiken and Jmike Folson welcome guest Joe Mastropiero to discuss Marvel's Thunderbolts movie The hosts explained the Superman connection to Thunderbolts: the Sentry character is a Superman analog The group discussed the recently released Superman trailer featuring David Corenswet Logan Crowley provided audio commentary praising the trailer's rural American portrayal of the Kents The trailer shows Lois Lane interviewing Clark Kent and Superman's moral conflict with authority figures Group discussed potential Justice Society appearance and Nicholas Hoult as Lex Luthor Thunderbolts Team History and Setup (15:46 - 29:34) Original Thunderbolts comic (1996) featured villains disguised as heroes after mainstream heroes disappeared The comic team was led by Baron Zemo with members including Moonstone, Atlas, Mach 1, and Songbird The team evolved over time from redemption-seeking villains to government ops team (similar to Suicide Squad) The movie roster differs significantly from comic versions, causing initial fan confusion The Sentry character is a controversial Superman analog with bipolar disorder and a dark alter ego called 'The Void' The Sentry has extreme power levels that create storytelling challenges in the Marvel universe Movie Characters Review: Part 1 (29:35 - 49:41) Yelena (Florence Pugh): Burned-out assassin who serves as the audience viewpoint character Bucky (Sebastian Stan): Former Winter Soldier, moved away from his congressman storyline Red Guardian (David Harbour): Soviet super-soldier who brings enthusiasm and comic relief Ghost (Hannah John-Kamen): Character with phasing abilities who had plot elements removed Taskmaster: Briefly appears in the film but is killed early to establish stakes All characters are government-created weapons now without masters, seeking purpose Movie Characters Review: Part 2 (49:42 - 01:00:08) US Agent (Wyatt Russell): Portrayed as a physically powerful but unlikeable douchebag Val (Julia Louis-Dreyfus): Manipulative politician/spymaster who brings the team together Mel: Character who unexpectedly survives despite seeming setup for death Bob/Sentry (Lewis Pullman): Mild-mannered man who transforms into the golden-costumed Sentry The Void manifestation was effectively portrayed through shadow effects and 'Hiroshima-style shadows' The film effectively handles Sentry's extreme power levels by keeping him sidelined for most of the story ️ Movie Structure and Themes (01:00:10 - 01:10:23) Film has strong setup and payoff elements with well-structured action sequences Team is brought together when 'they are the evidence' that needs to be eliminated The movie differs from expectations of being a Suicide Squad-type government contract story The Void serves as vehicle for showing characters' trauma and psychological issues Despite differences from comics, film maintains core theme of redemption for characters with dark pasts Characters take on 'New Avengers' name by the end, connecting to comic history Superman Archetype Discussion (01:10:26 - 01:21:42) Discussion about why both dark and hopeful Superman archetypes resonate with audiences Joe highlighted importance of Superman's moral compass coming from supportive family/community Dark Superman versions explore 'what if' scenarios without those support structures The group noted a possible cultural shift toward desiring more hopeful superhero stories after a period of darker interpretations Century briefly shows Superman-like qualities before reverting to darker nature Film effectively portrays the burden of power on someone with mental health issues Show Updates and Promotion (01:21:43 - 01:27:49) Case announced upcoming Men of Steel episodes (#146-150) including Hulk vs Superman and Supergirl from Krypton The hosts promoted their Discord community as the best way for listeners to interact with them Men of Steel now has a Patreon at patreon.com/certainpovmedia with various support tiers Case thanked their first ten executive producer-level supporters by name Carter Hallett Sean Muir Lee Greger Memento Young Logan Crowley Joe Mastropiero Casey Aiken Nancy Aiken Adam Samtur Keith Lehtinen Case mentioned writing essays for Patreon subscribers (even at free tier) Final promotion for 'We Have Issues' podcast reviewing weekly comic releases Action items Listeners Join the Men of Steel Discord to interact with hosts and discuss the Superman trailer and Thunderbolts (01:21:42) Check out and possibly support the show's new Patreon at patreon.com/certainpovmedia (01:23:07) Case Aiken Schedule essay releases more consistently on Patreon going forward (01:25:57) Complete and release the Naomi episode that was previously mentioned

Case and Jmike are joined by Logan Crowley to discuss one of the few times where Superman is the underdog in the story, when he crossed over with the Silver Surfer!   Overview In the latest episode of the podcast, hosts Case Aiken and Jmike Folson welcome guest Logan Crowley to discuss the recently published DC versus Marvel omnibus, centering on the 90s crossover story featuring Silver Surfer and Superman. The hosts delve into character power dynamics, plot setups, and the comic's creative team while highlighting their appreciation for artists like Ron Lim and writers like George Perez. As the discussion unfolds, they explore the narrative twists involving characters like the Impossible Man and Mr. Mxyzptlk, engaging in debates about iconic character matchups and the significance of their unique abilities. The episode concludes with reflections on the crossover's implications, Logan's upcoming podcast launch, and an invitation for listeners to engage with their online community.   Notes Introduction and DC vs Marvel Omnibus (00:00 - 09:43) Case Aiken and Jmike Folson welcome Discord community member Logan Crowley as guest Discussion focuses on recently published DC versus Marvel omnibus The group plans to discuss Silver Surfer Superman crossover from the 90s Logan mentions it feels surreal to be on the podcast as a fan Ron Lim highlighted as perfect artist for Silver Surfer comics George Perez noted as writer for this issue (though the hosts prefer his art to his writing) Logan shares touching personal story about meeting George Perez at a convention Comic Setting and Character Power Levels (09:43 - 19:59) The comic features 90s 'Triangle era' Superman (post-Crisis, post-death) Superman is at his weakest power level compared to extremely powerful Silver Surfer Creative team: George Perez (writer) and Ron Lim (artist) Comic establishes two separate realities (Marvel and DC as different multiverses) The Contessa appears instead of Lex Luthor (specific to this Superman era) Silver Surfer's immense power emphasized - 'strides light year after light year in mere seconds' Silver Surfer discovers mysterious, rapidly evolving planet that shouldn't exist Plot Setup and Character Situations (19:59 - 29:44) Superman finds himself apparently on Krypton (with John Byrne-style mushroom dress designs) Silver Surfer crash lands in Metropolis and causes destruction with his powers Superman's powers begin to fade due to mental blocks related to the red sun Superman realizes he's not actually on Krypton and his powers return Introduction of Klert the Super Skrull as Superman's opponent (though it's a fake-out) Discussion of how the 90s-era Superman depiction differs from other versions Surfer in the Fortress and Character Revelations (29:44 - 39:35) Silver Surfer enters what appears to be Superman's Fortress of Solitude The Fortress attacks Surfer, first formally then with humor Mix of Fortress of Solitude and Batcave elements (dinosaur robot, giant coin) Superman realizes he's not actually fighting the real Super Skrull Brief glimpse of 'spaghetti-headed aliens' reveals the deception Superman punches 'Super Skrull' while shouting 'Game over imp' - suspecting Mr. Mxyzptlk Silver Surfer discovers Metropolis is bottled like the city of Kandor

Case and Jmike are joined by Ed Gross to talk about his books on Superman!   Voices From Krypton Superman: The Definitive History   Overview   In this engaging podcast interview, hosts Case Aiken and Jmike welcome Ed Gross, a prolific author known for his in-depth oral histories, particularly focusing on Superman. The conversation begins with an exploration of Ed's background and his extensive work, including the recently released 'The Definitive History of Superman' and the ambitious 'Voices from Krypton,' which features insights from 250 interviews. Ed shares the intricate process behind creating oral histories, akin to piecing together a jigsaw puzzle, while delving into the complex history of Superman's creators, Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster. The dialogue highlights Ed's personal connection to Superman and discusses the legacy of the character, as well as his experiences interviewing various actors who have portrayed Superman. The episode concludes with an announcement of a book giveaway to the listeners, further engaging the audience with Ed's work.   Notes   Introduction to Ed Gross and His Superman Projects (00:00 - 11:37) Case Aiken and Jmike welcome guest Ed Gross to discuss his Superman books. Ed wrote 'Voices from Krypton,' an oral history of Superman that includes interviews with Case. Ed recently completed 'The Definitive History of Superman.' Ed explains his background in oral histories, starting with Star Trek's 50th anniversary in 2015. Oral histories allow presentation of multiple perspectives, including conflicting views. Ed has written 14 books in 9 years, including oral histories of Star Trek, Star Wars, James Bond. 'Voices from Krypton' was a dream project that utilized 40 years of Ed's interviews. Creating Oral Histories and Superman's Legacy (11:37 - 22:26) Ed explains his process for creating oral histories, comparing it to assembling a jigsaw puzzle. Interviews are structured to tell a coherent story while maintaining authentic voices. The book includes 250 interviews in total, creating a 333,000-word, 750-page tome. The Siegel and Shuster story was the most challenging section to research and balance. Ed spent four months researching court papers and interviewing relatives to tell their story fairly. Ed discusses how the creators eventually received credit for Superman before they died. Superman has appeared in some form of production every decade since 1938. ️ Superman's Creation and Complex History (22:26 - 32:30) Ed compares Siegel and Shuster's work-for-hire situation to actors in Gilligan's Island and Star Trek. Despite selling rights for 130, Siegel and Shuster made equivalent of 6 million in first nine years. Ed highlights Neil Adams' significant role in advocating for Superman's creators. Ed discusses his personal connection to Superman since age 5. Superman remains one of Ed's lifetime obsessions alongside Star Trek, Beatles, James Bond. Ed notes he can trace his lifelong interests to a five-year period in his childhood (1967-1972). Ed expresses gratitude for being able to write about his childhood passions professionally. Superman: The Definitive History Book (32:30 - 43:07) Ed was approached to create official Superman history after 'Voices from Krypton' success. Initial deadline was only four months but was extended. Ed co-wrote with Bob Greenberger, who handled comic book history sections. The official book features extensive artwork including comics, production art, storyboards. Book is oversized (16 pounds) and retails for 175 (Amazon 157). Kindle version available for $19.99. Ed discusses his interactions with Brandon Routh, who wrote the foreword. Brandon embodies Superman's principles in real life, especially when interacting with fans. Superman Actors and Future Projects (43:07 - 54:25) Ed has interviewed numerous Superman actors including Dean Cain, George Newbern, Tim Daly. Shares story of meeting Henry Cavill before Man of Steel and being struck by his Superman-like appearance. Ed is currently working on second volume of Planet of the Apes oral history. Ed mentions working on more Superman projects but can't discuss specifics yet. Every person interviewed was enthusiastic about discussing Superman. Ed shares anecdote about Kevin Smith's enthusiasm regarding a childhood Superman game. People recognize being part of Superman's 86-year legacy. Podcast hosts announce giveaway of Ed's book to Discord members.   Action items Case Aiken First three people to DM Case on Discord will receive copies of Ed's book (52:22)

Case and Jmike are joined by Doug Lief (from the Nostalgium Arcanum podcast) to talk about a family that's pretty super, The Incredibles!   Overview   In Podcast episode 142 of Men of Steel, hosts Case Aiken and Jmike Folson, alongside guest Doug Lief, delve into a comprehensive analysis of Disney's The Incredibles through the lens of Superman fandom. They explore the film's connections to other superhero media, notably its references to 60s Batman and Fleischer Superman, while debating the film's overall tone, which Case describes as having an 'angry' directorial voice. The discussion emphasizes Mr. Incredible as a Superman analog, revealing how his secret identity as Bob Parr reflects an average man grappling with superhero responsibilities amid family dynamics. The team draws parallels between the family members' powers and their roles, likening the villain Syndrome to a failed fan archetype obsessed with eliminating exceptionalism. Additionally, they analyze the film's aging animation, contextualize its place in the superhero genre before the rise of the MCU, and celebrate its blend of action and relatable family themes. The episode culminates in discussing the film's unresolved questions about the necessity of superheroes in society, concluding that it adeptly balances the extraordinary with the everyday.   Notes ‍️ Introduction and Context (01:12 - 15:47) Case Aiken and Jmike Folson host the Men of Steel podcast with guest Doug Lief The discussion focuses on Disney's The Incredibles (2004) from a Superman fan perspective Doug mentions the movie's connections to Watchmen and other superhero media The hosts establish that the film is a love letter to superheroes with influences from 60s Batman, James Bond, and Fleischer Superman Case acknowledges he likes but doesn't love the movie, finding it has an 'angry' directorial voice ‍️ Mr. Incredible as Superman Analog (15:47 - 24:52) The group analyzes Mr. Incredible (Bob Parr) as a Superman analog Bob Parr's name means 'average' - perfect for a secret identity His job at an insurance company creates dramatic irony (helping after harm vs. preventing it) The hosts discuss Mr. Incredible's durability, strength, and physical capabilities The film explores the tension between superhero responsibility and family obligations The 'Bob Parr' identity has real value to him beyond just being a disguise ‍‍‍ Family Dynamics and Powers (24:52 - 39:20) The Incredibles compared to Fantastic Four but with a nuclear family structure Each family member's powers serve as metaphors for their roles: Elastigirl must 'bend over backwards' for her family Violet wants to be invisible/blend in as a teenager Dash wants to show off and stand out with his speed Holly Hunter praised for her performance as Elastigirl The married couple dynamic shows mature flirtation and partnership Sarah Vowell's performance as Violet highlighted despite not being a professional actress Syndrome as Villain (39:20 - 54:00) Syndrome analyzed as Jimmy Olsen gone evil or fan-turned-Lex Luthor His character represents fandom and mediocrity wanting to eliminate specialness Syndrome observes and counters heroes' weaknesses but fails to examine his own His fatal flaw is wearing a cape, which Edna Mode had warned against The group discusses connections to Alan Moore's works (Watchmen and Captain Britain) Syndrome's robot compared to the squid from Watchmen's ending Brad Bird reportedly denies Watchmen influence despite many parallels Jack-Jack and Supporting Characters (54:00 - 01:03:00) Jack-Jack has godlike powers (17 documented in the sequel) Compared to Franklin Richards from Fantastic Four Jack-Jack helps defeat Syndrome at the end of the film Edna Mode (voiced by Brad Bird) praised as an excellent character Her role as the Q-like gadget designer who incorporates fashion The group discusses superhero costume design elements Frozone and his 'Where's my super suit?' scene mentioned Animation and Film Context (01:03:00 - 01:16:40) The film's animation shows its age (from 2004) but holds up well due to stylization Technical limitations discussed (water effects, foliage, crowds) The hosts note the film predates the MCU (2008) and Nolan's Batman (2005) The Incredibles came at a transition point for superhero cinema The movie successfully balances superhero action with relatable family dynamics Character designs discussed (Mr. Incredible's face based on a Roman helmet) Final Battle and Themes (01:16:40 - 01:26:47) The Omnidroid battle showcases the family working together effectively Team power moves highlight each character's abilities and their coordination The question of 'do we need superheroes?' explored through the final battle Dash's athletic participation at the end (coming in second) compared to Superman hiding his abilities The film doesn't fully resolve questions about exceptional people's place in society The ending shows balance between superhero and ordinary life is beneficial Conclusions and Wrap-Up (01:26:47 - 01:38:04) The Underminer appearance sets up the sequel and references Mole Man from Fantastic Four The hosts appreciate the film's commentary on superhero tropes ('you caught me monologuing') The movie works well as both a superhero film and a family story Discussion about how the film has aged and its historical context in superhero cinema Podcast information and social media contacts shared Recommendation for Books that Burn podcast from the Certain POV network

Case and Jmike are joined by Micah McCaw to assess the Symbolism Supreme in Alan Moore's Supreme Story of the Year.   Overview   In episode 141 of the Men of Steel podcast, hosts Case Aiken and Jmike Folson, alongside guest Micah McCaw, delve into Alan Moore's influential 12-issue run on Supreme, titled "Supreme: The Story of the Year." They highlight the comic's groundbreaking nature upon its release in the mid-90s, reimagining Supreme—a character initially created by Rob Liefeld and akin to Superman—by incorporating innovative storytelling techniques, such as in-universe “revisions” of the character and comments on comic book history. The discussion spans various aspects of the series, including its artistic evolution through different illustrators and the provocative themes surrounding superhero relationships and villains. Notably, the podcast emphasizes Moore's ability to blend humor with meta-narrative elements while maintaining continuity amidst complex plotlines, ultimately positioning Supreme as a celebrated reconstruction of traditional superhero narratives. As the hosts reflect on its significance, they recommend further explorations of Moore's work, ensuring listeners are left with a comprehensive appreciation for the series and its impact on the comic book landscape.   Notes Introduction to Supreme (00:50 - 11:43) Case Aiken and Jmike Folson host the Men of Steel podcast with guest Micah McCaw The episode discusses Alan Moore's 12-issue run on Supreme, also known as 'Supreme: The Story of the Year' The comic was published in 1995-1996 and was considered groundbreaking at the time Supreme is described as a thinly veiled Superman analog with similar powers and characteristics The hosts discuss how the book remained cutting edge for 20 years but now feels more commonplace ‍️ History of Supreme (11:43 - 25:55) Supreme was originally created by Rob Liefeld as part of Image Comics' launch Before Alan Moore, Supreme was an amoral, extremely powerful character (a Superman analog) Moore took over with issue #41 and completely reimagined the character The comic features regular flashbacks to different eras of comics, parodying Superman's timeline The art style shifts between contemporary and classic/retro depending on the time period shown Art and Creative Teams (25:55 - 35:04) Joe Bennett was the main artist, who would later work on Immortal Hulk Rick Veitch created the flashback sequences with distinct period-appropriate art styles Chris Sprouse joins as artist later in the run (only one issue in this collection) Alex Ross created promotional art and cover designs for Supreme The hosts note that the art quality is inconsistent throughout the series The Revision Concept (35:04 - 45:50) The comic introduces 'revisions' - an in-universe explanation for continuity changes Supreme visits the 'Supremacy' where all previous versions of himself exist after being revised out The concept explains why comic characters change over time The hosts discuss the meta-narrative of comics existing within a comics universe Ethan Crane (Supreme's alter ego) works as a comic artist in his civilian identity Supreme's Universe (45:50 - 57:54) The Citadel Supreme is Supreme's Fortress of Solitude equivalent The Allied Supremes of America is the Justice Society/Justice League analog Supreme has his own version of supporting characters like Lois Lane (Diana Dane) The book features extensive flashbacks to previous eras of comics history Issue #44 features EC Comics-style horror hosts challenging superheroes, explaining why heroes fell out of favor Supernatural Elements (57:54 - 01:06:50) Supreme's origin involves exposure to a radioactive meteor (Supremium) The League of Infinity includes heroes from throughout time periods including Achilles, Bill Hickok, and Aladdin The book includes various dimensions including the Hell of Mirrors and Amolinth (a photo world) The creative use of Supreme's powers includes his 'consciousness expanding' rather than using telescopic vision Goral the Living Galaxy serves as a Galactus-type cosmic entity Relationships and Romance (01:06:50 - 01:17:03) Issue #50 explores Supreme's dating life and potential relationships Three scenarios show why relationships don't work for superheroes: domestication, exploitation, or conflict Diana Dane is positioned as Supreme's potential love interest The issue offers meta-commentary on why superheroes rarely maintain stable relationships Chris Sprouse's art in this issue is praised as superior to earlier issues Villains and Antagonists (01:17:03 - 01:26:08) Darius Dax is Supreme's Lex Luthor equivalent and main antagonist The comic features various counterparts to Superman's rogues gallery Shadow Supreme serves as a negative version of the hero Optilux is a living light being with significant powers The heroes face challenges they can't simply punch their way through ⏳ Time Loop Concept (01:26:08 - 01:36:03) The comic features a time loop where Darius Dax becomes the meteor that gives Supreme his powers Supreme sees his past self, creating a stable time loop The hosts note that while time loops are common now, this was innovative in the mid-90s The League of Infinity adds to the time travel elements The hosts discuss how Moore keeps continuity coherent despite complex timeline issues Meta-Commentary (01:36:04 - 01:45:32) The comic constantly references and comments on comics history Characters discuss the structure of comic books while living in one The book reconstructs superhero tropes rather than deconstructing them (unlike Watchmen) Alan Moore is described as being on an 'apology tour' for how Watchmen changed comics The series acknowledges and pokes fun at comic book conventions while embracing them Final Plot Developments (01:45:32 - 01:54:22) Judy Jordan and her 'granddaughter' Hilda visit Citadel Supreme The drawing created by Hilda is revealed to be part of Darius Dax's plan Dax transfers his consciousness into Judy's body through nano-dust Supreme is trapped in the Hell of Mirrors as Dax takes control of the Citadel The plot twist reveals the 'child's drawing' had been a Chekhov's gun throughout the series Conclusion and Reflections (01:54:22 - 02:11:44) The hosts discuss the significance of Supreme in comics history The comic is positioned as a reconstruction of Superman after the deconstruction era The series is praised for its humor, creativity, and meta-approach to comics The hosts recommend other Alan Moore works like Tom Strong The podcast ends with contact information for the hosts and guest Micah McCaw

Years ago, Case wrote a radio script that crossed over Superman with The Shadow. Now, he's gathered a host of actors to read it with full orchestration and foley!    Overview   In the Creative Collaboration and Script Reading meeting titled "The Shadow Meets Superman in The Searing Silhouette," hosted by Case Aiken and Jmike Folson, participants including Rachel Quirky Schenk, Geoff Moonen, Olivia Gilliatt, Ben Goldsmith, Peter Coleman, and Sarah Moonen engaged in a collaborative reading of the script. The meeting began with introductions and role assignments, followed by a two-part reading that introduced the characters of The Shadow and Superman, set against the backdrop of a major metropolitan law firm and a kidnapping plot. The discussion segment allowed participants to share feedback on the script, explore its historical context, and draw comparisons with other media crossovers. Additionally, tangential discussions covered related topics, such as pinball machines and potential sequels. The meeting concluded with a wrap-up where participants exchanged final thoughts and social media information, and Case Aiken outlined the action items, including editing the script for sound effects and encouraging ongoing conversations in a dedicated Discord server.   Notes Introduction and Script Reading (00:00 - 09:24) Case Aiken introduces the Men of Steel podcast Participants introduced: Rachel Quirky Schenk, Geoff Moonen, Olivia Gilliatt, Ben Goldsmith, Peter Coleman, Sarah Moonen Jmike Folson as co-host Script Reading Part 1 (09:24 - 18:08) Reading of 'The Shadow meets Superman in the searing silhouette' script begins Introduction of characters: Lamont Cranston (The Shadow), Margo Lane Setting established: Major metropolitan law firm Kidnapping plot introduced Script Reading Part 2 (18:08 - 28:35) Superman's introduction in the script Crossover between The Shadow and Superman storylines Investigation of the kidnapping case Interaction between Clark Kent and Margo Lane ️ Discussion and Feedback (28:35 - 40:33) Participants share thoughts on the script reading Case Aiken explains script background and influences Discussion of radio show era and character portrayals Comparison to other media crossovers Tangential Discussions (40:33 - 49:08) Conversation about pinball machines related to The Shadow Discussion about potential sequels or extensions of the script Participants share personal experiences and connections to the material Wrap-up and Social Media (49:08 - 58:48) Final thoughts from participants Sharing of social media handles and upcoming projects Case Aiken provides contact information and podcast details Discussion of Discord server for further conversations  

Case and Jmike are joined by Jesse Galdston to excavate the deepest secrets of the Wildstorm Universe in the landmark series, Planetary.   Overview   In this episode of the podcast, the hosts delve into "Planetary," a groundbreaking comic series from the late 90s to early 2000s, paying tribute to its co-creator John Cassaday, who recently passed away. The discussion covers the series' unique approach to superhero narratives, its complex characters—including Elijah Snow and the Drummer—and its exploration of themes such as lost potential, the grotesque realities of heroism, and the subversion of classic superhero tropes. The hosts examine the artistic style of Cassaday, the series' critical commentary on comic book history, and its connections to the Wildstorm universe, as well as its influence on subsequent works and the ethical implications presented in crossover events like "Planetary JLA: Terra Occulta." J Mike, a newcomer to the series, is encouraged to explore more, while listeners are invited to join the Discord community for further discussions.   Notes Introduction to Planetary (00:00 - 10:07) Discussing Planetary, a comic series from late 90s/early 2000s Planetary is a play on Fantastic Four setup, exploring comics, sci-fi, and fantasy genres John Cassaday, co-creator of Planetary, recently passed away Planetary shaped thinking about Superman analogs J Mike had not read Planetary before this discussion Planetary Concept and Characters (10:07 - 20:22) Planetary is about recruiting a team of special people The team looks for objects of scientific nature The Drummer's powers: metahumanly connected to the Internet and all kinds of code The Four: evil version of the Fantastic Four, main antagonists of the series Elijah Snow: the fourth man, has temperature subtraction powers Planetary's World and Themes (20:22 - 30:28) Planetary explores the Wildstorm universe The series deals with the concept of century babies (born on January 1st) Explores the idea of lost potential in the world Discusses the grotesque reality of superhero concepts The series tagline: "It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way." Art and Storytelling in Planetary (30:28 - 42:08) John Cassaday's art style embraces modern technology Each issue explores a different sci-fi concept or genre The series uses repeated patterns and motifs Planetary questions how superheroes could make the world better The series balances internal conversation with visceral enjoyment of strange ideas Superman and Batman Analogs (42:08 - 51:37) Discussion of Superman analog in Issue 10 Exploration of the Green Lantern concept in Planetary Wonder Woman analog in the series Batman's role in Planetary/Batman crossover Comparison of Planetary's treatment of superheroes to other works Planetary JLA Crossover (51:38 - 01:02:54) Discussion of Planetary JLA: Terra Occulta Planetary characters as antagonists in this story Exploration of alternate versions of DC characters Comparison to Tower of Babel storyline Discussion of the ethical implications of the story Themes and Concepts in Planetary (01:02:54 - 01:12:10) Exploration of lost potential in superhero narratives Discussion of the nature of heroism and corruption Comparison of Planetary to other Wildstorm titles Exploration of the series' treatment of classic superhero tropes Discussion of the series' commentary on comic book history Impact and Legacy of Planetary (01:12:11 - 01:21:27) Reflection on Planetary's place in comic book history Discussion of John Cassaday's artistic contributions Comparison of Planetary to other comic series of its era Exploration of Planetary's influence on later works Discussion of the series' treatment of superhero archetypes Wildstorm Universe and Conclusion (01:21:28 - 01:30:52) Discussion of Wildstorm as a publication studio Comparison of Wildstorm to other comic universes Reflection on the integration of Wildstorm into DC Final thoughts on Planetary and its themes Wrap-up and podcast information   Action items J Mike Read the rest of the Planetary series to gain a deeper understanding of its themes and characters (01:23:06) Listeners Join the Discord server for ongoing discussions about Planetary and related topics (01:29:08) Follow the hosts on social media platforms to stay updated on future episodes and discussions (01:28:31)

Few questions inspire as much debate as "Who is faster, the Flash or Superman?" Case and Jmike are joined by Austin Funk, from the Rolling with Difficulty podcast (https://rollingwithdifficultypod.transistor.fm/) , to take a closer look at the photo finish that is the various races between Superman and the Flash.   Overview   The Discussion/Analysis meeting centered around the iconic races between Superman and The Flash, covering their historical significance in comics from the first race in Superman 199 to contemporary depictions in animated series and live-action adaptations. Key topics included the power dynamics and character developments through different comic eras, particularly focusing on Wally West's evolution as The Flash, and the emotional depth apparent in races involving the Flash family. The meeting also highlighted artistic challenges in illustrating super-speed and discussed the scientific and philosophical themes these races evoke, such as the concept of the Speed Force. Additionally, memorable race narratives were examined for their impact and legacy within the DC universe, followed by an exploration of fan reception and the cultural relevance of these iconic rivalries. Overall, the meeting provided a comprehensive look at the Superman vs. Flash dynamic, its evolution over time, and its significance in the broader superhero genre. Notes ‍♂️ Introduction to Superman vs Flash Races (00:00 - 12:48) Discussed various races between Superman and The Flash in comics Mentioned the first race in Superman 199, written by Jim Shooter Highlighted the time-honored tradition of these races in DC Comics Noted that these races serve as a snapshot of Superman and comics at different times ‍♂️ Early Races and Their Significance (12:48 - 22:45) Explored the first race in Superman 199 and its details Discussed the science explanations and power differences between Superman and Flash Highlighted the gambling subplot in the first race Mentioned the introduction of different types of Kryptonite Post-Crisis Races and Character Development (22:46 - 31:56) Discussed the post-Crisis races, focusing on Wally West as The Flash Explored the power level changes and character development in this era Mentioned the involvement of Mr. Mxyzptlk in one of the races Discussed the introduction of Crimson Kryptonite ⚡ Flash Family and Legacy (31:56 - 42:03) Explored races involving different members of the Flash family Discussed the legacy aspect of The Flash character Mentioned races involving Jay Garrick and Superman Highlighted the emotional depth in some of these stories Superman's Legacy and Comparisons (42:03 - 50:55) Discussed Superman's legacy compared to The Flash's Explored the similarities and differences between Superman and Flash as characters Mentioned the concept of legacy in Superman's story Discussed the impact of Barry Allen's return as The Flash Races in Other Media (50:55 - 01:00:58) Explored races between Superman and Flash in animated series and live-action shows Discussed the challenges of depicting super-speed in various media Mentioned specific episodes from Superman: The Animated Series and Smallville Highlighted the importance of these races in establishing shared universes Artistic Challenges and Interpretations (01:00:58 - 01:09:30) Discussed the difficulties of illustrating races in comic books Mentioned various artists' approaches to depicting super-speed Explored the evolution of how races are depicted in comics over time Highlighted standout artistic interpretations of Superman vs Flash races Scientific and Philosophical Aspects (01:09:30 - 01:18:31) Discussed the scientific explanations (or lack thereof) for super-speed in comics Explored the concept of the Speed Force and its implications Mentioned the philosophical questions raised by characters with limitless abilities Discussed how these races reflect broader themes in superhero comics Best Race Stories and Their Impact (01:18:31 - 01:27:36) Highlighted some of the most memorable Superman vs Flash races Discussed the story "Up in the Sky" as a standout race narrative Explored the impact of these races on the larger DC universe Mentioned how these races often serve as milestones in comic book storytelling Evolution of the Superman vs Flash Dynamic (01:27:36 - 01:36:25) Discussed how the relationship between Superman and Flash has evolved over time Explored the changing power dynamics between the characters Mentioned how these races reflect broader changes in comic book storytelling Discussed the impact of various comic book eras on the Superman vs Flash dynamic Cultural Impact and Fan Reception (01:36:25 - 01:46:44) Explored the cultural significance of Superman vs Flash races Discussed fan reactions and debates surrounding these races Mentioned how these races have become a staple of DC Comics lore Explored the impact of these races on the broader superhero genre Character Analysis and Thematic Exploration (01:46:44 - 01:55:29) Conducted deeper analysis of Superman and Flash as characters Explored recurring themes in Superman vs Flash race stories Discussed how these races highlight core aspects of each character Mentioned the broader implications of these races for superhero storytelling

There's nothing more important to developing creativity than play, so let's look at the toys that featured the Man of Steel. In particular, back in thew 80s, DC put out a line that distilled the raw power of their characters into figures that punched and kicked without the need for buttons or levers! That's right, Case and Jmike are joined by guest Rick Lee James to discuss the venerable DC Super Powers line! Overview  In the latest episode of the podcast, hosts Case Aiken and JMike Folson welcome guest Rick Lee James for an engaging discussion about the impact of action figures on childhood perceptions of superheroes, particularly focusing on toys from the Super powers line of the late 70s and early 80s. The episode delves into the cultural influence of various superhero toy lines, including Power Rangers and Transformers, while examining the design and action features of iconic vehicles like the Batmobile and Supermobile. The hosts explore the evolution of toy designs, the crossover between toys and media tie-ins, and how characters like Cyborg emerged from the Super powers cartoon. Rick shares insights into his music career and current role as a hospital chaplain, along with social media details for fans. The meeting concludes with plans for future episodes and an action item to research additional Superpowers memorabilia. Notes Introduction and Toy Discussion(00:00 - 10:30) ●      Hosts Case Aiken and J. Mike Fson introduce the podcast and guest Rick Lee James ●      Discussion about the importance of action figures in shaping childhood perceptions of superheroes ●      Rick shares his experience with Super powers toys from the late 70s/early 80s ●      Toys as a source of creativity and early fan fiction for children ●      Mention of He-Man's origin from unused Conan the Barbarian toy molds Superhero Toy Lines and Media Influence(10:30 - 19:32) ●      Discussion of Power Rangers, Transformers, and Superman merchandise ●      Death and Return of Superman toy line from early 90s mentioned ●      Batman animated series influence on toy production ●      Superpowers toy line features discussed, including action features for each character ●      Detailed list of Super powers characters and their action features Toy Design and Cultural Impact(19:32 - 31:12) ●      Comparison between original Superpowers line and new McFarlane toys ●      Discussion of vehicles in both toy lines, including Supermobile and Batmobile ●      Mention of Jose Louis Garcia Lopez's influence on toy design ●      Impact of Super powers cartoon on future DC storylines, including Cyborg's inclusion in Justice League ●      Robot Chicken's use of Super powers toys in their sketches McFarlane Toys and Vehicle Features(31:14 - 39:21) ●      Detailed discussion of McFarlane's new Super powers toy line ●      Focus on vehicle toys having action features while figures do not ●      Comparison of original and new Supermobile, Batmobile, and Wonder Woman's Invisible Jet ●      Discussion of comic accuracy in new toy designs Superpowers Media Tie-ins(39:21 - 46:52) ●      VHS tapes featuring Superman, Aquaman, Batman, and Superboy mentioned ●      Discussion of Superboy's prevalence in media despite lack of dedicated toy ●      Mention of Justice League of America Skyscraper Caper board game ●      Ubiquity of Superpowers merchandise in the 1980s Wrap-up and Guest Information(46:52 - 57:40) ●      Rick shares his Superman Twitter account and music career ●      Discussion of Rick's current work as a hospital chaplain ●      Hosts share their contact information and upcoming content ●      Mention of YouTube channel and Dungeons & Dragons videos ●      Closing remarks and podcast information  

Can the Man of Steel weather a Crisis in Time? Grant Richter from the Truth, Justice, and Hope podcast joins Case and Jmike to look at Superman's tie ins with Zero Hour!   Overview In episode 136 of the podcast, titled "Superman in Zero Hour," hosts engage in a comprehensive discussion with guest Grant Richter about the influential 1994 DC Comics event, Zero Hour. The conversation begins with an introduction to the event and its significance for key characters like Superman and the Legion of Superheroes, before delving into the context of Superman comics at that time, including the 'triangle era' and the introduction of new characters like Superboy. Key segments explore Zero Hour's impact on character continuity, the complexities of time travel within the story, and specific tie-in issues featuring characters such as Superboy and Batman. The episode also covers the introduction of characters like Alpha Centurion and the lasting effects of Zero Hour on DC's continuity, followed by an evaluation of the event's strengths and weaknesses. The hosts conclude with final thoughts, social media promotions, and listener engagement opportunities through a Discord community.   Notes Introduction to Zero Hour (00:00 - 10:02) Podcast hosts introduce themselves and guest Grant Richter Discuss Zero Hour, a DC Comics event from 1994 Highlight the significance of Zero Hour for Superman and Legion of Superheroes Context of Zero Hour (10:02 - 18:31) Explain the state of Superman comics in 1994 Discuss the 'triangle era' of Superman comics Mention the introduction of new characters like Superboy and Steel Zero Hour's Impact on Characters (18:31 - 28:29) Detail the effects of Zero Hour on Legion of Superheroes continuity Discuss the introduction of Valor (Mon-El) as a replacement for Superboy Explain the concept of SW6 Legion and time duplicates ️ Time Shenanigans in Zero Hour (28:29 - 40:04) Describe the multiple versions of characters appearing due to time distortions Discuss the involvement of the Time Trapper and Cosmic Boy Explain the pocket universe Superboy's role in the event ‍♂️ Superboy Tie-In Issue (40:04 - 50:06) Analyze the Superboy Zero Hour tie-in issue Praise Tom Grummett's artwork Discuss the interaction between 90s Superboy and pre-Crisis Superboy Batman's Role in Zero Hour (50:06 - 59:41) Examine the Man of Steel tie-in issue featuring multiple Batmen Praise Jon Bogdanove's artistic versatility in depicting different Batman styles Discuss the appearance of Jor-El and Lara in the story Alpha Centurion and Alternate Realities (59:41 - 01:08:39) Introduce the character of Alpha Centurion Discuss the alternate reality where Alpha Centurion replaces Superman Analyze the design and concept of Alpha Centurion ⏳ Time Distortions and Character Interactions (01:08:39 - 01:17:16) Examine the Action Comics tie-in featuring time distortions Discuss the appearance of young Ma and Pa Kent Analyze the 1940s gangster story elements in the issue Zero Hour's Overall Impact (01:17:16 - 01:26:15) Discuss the lasting effects of Zero Hour on DC continuity Analyze the introduction of characters like Kyle Rayner and Jack Knight Debate the merits of the event's approach to continuity changes Villains and Consequences (01:26:16 - 01:35:13) Discuss the roles of Extant and Parallax as villains in Zero Hour Analyze the portrayal of Hal Jordan as Parallax Examine the consequences for the Justice Society of America Evaluating Zero Hour (01:35:13 - 01:44:39) Discuss the strengths and weaknesses of Zero Hour as an event Analyze its impact on different DC franchises Compare it to other comic book events ️ Wrapping Up and Podcast Information (01:44:40 - 01:55:18) Hosts and guest share final thoughts on Zero Hour Provide information on where to find their podcasts and social media Promote other podcast projects and Discord community Listeners Check out Grant's podcast and Twitter for more Superman content (51:06) Join the CPOV Discord server for more Superman discussions (53:33)

There are few pairings that can rival the acclaim of Batman and Superman, but the teaming of Mark Waid with Dan Mora may be a solid challenger! Jim Fetters is back to chat with Case and Jmike about the first arc in DC's Batman / Superman: World's Finest.   Overview: ●      In episode 134 of the Podcast Discussion meeting, hosts Casey Aiken and Jmike Folson, joined by guest Jim Fetters, delve into the intricacies of the "World's Finest" comic series, focusing on the first arc encompassing issues 1-6. They commend the creative efforts of Mark Waid and Dan Mora, highlighting the series' blend of Silver Age charm and contemporary storytelling. Key discussions include the engaging character dynamics between Robin and Supergirl, the introduction of the villain Devil Neza, and the seamless integration of time travel elements. Mora's dynamic art style receives particular praise, alongside Waid's effective narrative techniques, such as flashbacks and emotional portrayals of iconic characters. The hosts celebrate the comic's positive tone, contrasting it with darker narratives in recent years, and recommend "World's Finest" as a standout title from DC's current lineup. The meeting concludes with Jim Fetters sharing details about his work and the hosts providing podcast information for listeners. Notes: ●      #####  World's Finest Comic Discussion (00:00 - 11:36). Podcast hosts Casey Aiken and J. Mike Falsen discuss World's Finest comic. Guest Jim Fetters joins to talk about the first arc (issues 1-6). Mark Waid and Dan Mora praised for their work on the series. Comic set in an unspecified past with Silver Age elements. Dick Grayson's Robin highlighted as a standout character. Supergirl and Robin's awkward relationship introduced ●      #####  Character Dynamics and Story Elements (11:36 - 22:43). Devil Nezha introduced as the main villain. Doom Patrol incorporated into the story. Time travel elements discussed, including Supergirl's casual ability to fly through time. Batman and Superman's friendship portrayed effectively. Dan Mora's art style compared to Norm Breyfogle's work ●      #####  Art and Storytelling Techniques (22:43 - 31:53). Dan Mora's art praised for its effectiveness and dynamic style. Mark Waid's storytelling techniques highlighted, including use of flashbacks. General Immortus character moment discussed. Batman-Superman fusion scene praised ●      #####  Story Structure and Character Development (31:54 - 41:22). Cliffhangers at the end of issues noted as effective. Batman's emotional portrayal discussed. Superman depicted as competent, capable, and compassionate. Book praised for its positive tone compared to darker recent comics ●      #####  Overall Praise and Recommendations (41:22 - 53:03). World's Finest recommended as one of DC's best current titles. Hosts and guest express enthusiasm for continuing to read the series. Jim Fetters shares where to find his work online. Podcast information and social media details shared

It's time to look at what just might be technically the current origin of Superman, Geoff Johns and Gary Frank's Secret Origin miniseries! Alex McConnell joins Case and Jmike to look at this retro reboot of the Man of Tomorrow's earliest adventures! Find Alex: ADMcConnell.com Overview In the latest episode of the podcast, the hosts delve into the intricate world of Superman through a detailed discussion of the "Secret Origins" comic, featuring a guest expert, Alex McConnell. They explore the nuances of Superman's character evolution, particularly how Geoff Johns tends to revert heroes to their classic Silver and Bronze Age personas, and they critically examine Gary Frank's artistic style. The hosts debate various iterations of Superman's origin stories, alongside the significance of his relationships with characters like Lana Lang and Lois Lane. They also analyze the portrayals of villains such as Lex Luthor and Metallo, emphasizing the impact of Metropolis' development and the role of media as embodied by the Daily Planet. Additionally, they touch upon themes of continuity, the shifting canon within DC Comics, and the story's broader cultural implications, including discussions on media ethics and public perception. Ultimately, the episode offers profound insights into the entwined relationships and symbolism within Superman's narrative and its portrayal of superhero culture. Notes Superman Origins Discussion (00:00 - 10:25) Discussing Superman's Secret Origins comic Geoff Johns' tendency to revert characters to Silver/Bronze Age versions Comparison of Gary Frank's art style over time Introduction of guest Alex McConnell Comic Book History and Context (10:25 - 22:50) Discussion of Legion of Superheroes storylines and continuity Comparison of different Superman origin stories Debate on bringing back classic elements vs. new interpretations Analysis of post-crisis Superman and its impact Art and Character Design (22:50 - 33:25) Critique of Gary Frank's art style in Secret Origins Discussion of Clark Kent's personality and relationships Analysis of Lex Luthor's character development Comparison to other Superman media adaptations ‍♀️ Character Relationships and Development (33:25 - 43:29) Exploration of Clark's relationships with Lana Lang and Lois Lane Discussion of Superman's powers and their manifestation Analysis of the Kent family dynamics Debate on the portrayal of Metropolis and its citizens Villains and Supporting Characters (43:29 - 53:25) Introduction and analysis of Rudy Jones/Parasite Discussion of John Corbin/Metallo's origin Exploration of Lex Luthor's role in Metropolis Analysis of military and government involvement in the story Metropolis and World-Building (53:25 - 01:05:00) Discussion of Metropolis' portrayal before and after Superman's arrival Analysis of Lex Luthor's influence on the city Exploration of the Daily Planet's role in the story Debate on the military's portrayal and xenophobia themes Action Sequences and Power Usage (01:05:00 - 01:15:07) Analysis of Superman's fight with Metallo Discussion of creative power usage in combat Exploration of kryptonite's effects and portrayal Debate on the pacing and timeline of events in the story Media and Public Perception (01:15:07 - 01:24:21) Discussion of the Daily Planet's role in shaping public opinion Analysis of Lois Lane's character and journalism style Exploration of Superman's impact on Metropolis culture Debate on the story's portrayal of media ethics and responsibility Continuity and Canon Discussion (01:24:21 - 01:33:16) Analysis of Secret Origins' place in Superman canon Discussion of DC Comics' reboots and timeline changes Comparison to other Superman origin stories and adaptations Final thoughts on the comic's strengths and weaknesses  

What is this? A podcast or an operating table? Duke is back to join Case and Jmike into the legendary book, The Dark Knight Returns… from the perspective of Superman fans. Meeting summary: ●      In the recent Podcast Recording meeting titled "The Dark Knight Returns," the hosts engaged in a comprehensive discussion about the iconic comic "The Dark Knight Returns." Starting with episode art options, they settled on a dynamic design featuring Superman above Batman. The conversation delved into various facets of the comic, analyzing its commentary on 1980s society, politics, and character portrayals, particularly of Batman, Superman, and new characters like Carrie Kelly. They highlighted themes such as Batman's psychological struggles post-retirement, the intense Batman vs. Superman conflict, and the significance of media influence within the story. The meeting concluded with reflections on the comic's legacy and recommendations for listeners to explore more content from the podcast network. Notes: ●     

How much pressure would it take for the Man of Steel to break? Jesse Fresco joins Case and Jmike to look at a series that asked that question: Irredeemable, written by Mark Waid, drawn by Peter Krause and Diego Barreto.

With the second season of My Adventures with Superman concluded, Case and Jmike are once again joined by Red and Blue from Overly Sarcastic Productions to reflect on it.

What if you had never been hurt? Never been sick? Would you be hero? Sophia Ricciardi joins Case and Jmike for some analysis of this stealth superhero movie. And make sure you check out the other side of this crossover by checking out Case's appearance on MovieStruck talking about the movie beat by beat: https://moviestruck.transistor.fm/episodes/moviestruck-episode-81-unbreakable-2000-feat-case-aiken

Did you know that Superman had a board game in the 50s? If Ebay didn't exist, we wouldn't have either! Keith Lehtinen joins Case and Jmike for some commentary and game highlights on this relic from a simpler time.

Not all superheroes wear capes. Some are teenagers with attitude! Nic Woolfe is back to chat about arguably the greatest Power Ranger of them all, Tommy Oliver!

The back half of the classic Superman shorts suffered from a drop in budget and a restructuring of the studio working on it. To look at these lesser cousins to the stellar Fleischer Studios Superman cartoons, Anthony Desiato (Digging For Kryptonite podcast) joins Case and Jmike for a conversation on the less notable but still... Famous... Superman shorts.

For many, the Fleischer Studios produced Superman Animated Shorts are the classic depiction of the Man of Steel and it's about time we talked about them.  For this conversation, Case and Jmike are joined by Brendan and Nick Connors from the City of Supers podcast.

Going back to the earliest days of the medium, superheroes have been used to sell you stuff. For a conversation about the commerce of superheroes, Case and Jmike are joined by Birk O'Halloran from pop art themed wine brand Iconic Wines.

The archetype of Superman is a compelling one, even when flipped from good to evil. For a conversation on villainous spins on the Man of Steel, Case and Jmike are joined by Dylan J. Schlender from The Reels of Justice podcast!

In the wake of the, at the time, unpopular “Electric Blue” era of Superman, we were presented four EXTREMELY classic takes on Superman. From the Truth, Justice, and Hope podcast, Grant Richter joins Case and Jmike to talk about “The Dominus Effect”.

Who watches the Watchmen? We do! Case and Jmike, along with Doug Lief do! They're here to talk about the comic and it's various adaptations and spin offs. Find Doug's show: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/nostalgium-arcanum/id1647660534

Jesse Fresco joins Case and Jmike to look at Superman's last solo film! Check out Jesse's work over at Jaguar Sharks! https://open.spotify.com/show/0z0fwhI0yEttCleRWxpAOg

"What a brilliant future we could have. And there will be peace – there will be peace when the people of this world want it so badly that their governments will have no choice but to give it to them. I just wish you could all see the Earth the way that I see it. Because when you really look at it, it's just one world." DJ Nik from the Happiness in Darkness podcast (and way more!) joins Case and Jmike to talk about the final movie in the Christopher Reeve series.

Some Men of Steel are actually MONKEY! Case and Jmike are joined by Derek Van Dyke to talk about what is undoubtedly the "Optimal Optimus" (as well as "Code of Hero" because we are not monsters).   Transcript (Subject to error) 00:00 Case Aiken Season one has a couple, like, events that feel like this should be the season finale. Like the floating island one. Yeah. And then it's like, oh, no, we're just gonna keep going. 00:07 Derek Van Dyke Season one just did a lot of great, like, mini story arcs leading up to. Yeah. Watching Beast wars, like, out of order on syndication, over the air was. 00:17 Jmike Folson Yeah, that would have messed with you. 00:18 Derek Van Dyke Yeah, because it's like every other week there's some season finale, and you're like, what is happening? 00:40 Case Aiken Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Men of Steel podcast. I am an optimal case Aiken, and as always, I am joined by my rat trap, J. Mike Falson. 00:51 Jmike Folson I gotta be rat trap, though. Why couldn't it be Cheetor? 00:53 Case Aiken Oh. 00:54 Jmike Folson Anyway, hey, welcome back, everybody. 00:55 Case Aiken I mean, honestly, you're probably the rhinox of the team. 01:01 Derek Van Dyke A higher compliment you cannot give. 01:05 Case Aiken Well, and there's the peacemaker right there. So that's the tiger Tron, Derek Van. 01:09 Derek Van Dyke Dyke, although I do not have nearly as deep and dulcite of tones as Tigatron's voice actor. 01:16 Case Aiken What's his name? Blue Mankuma. 01:18 Derek Van Dyke Beautiful, beautiful voice. 01:20 Case Aiken An incredible voice. So we're not going to mince words here. I tried to do a bit and it didn't quite work. But you know what? We're going to maximize this effort here. Today we're talking about maximize Transformers, Beast wars, and specifically, we're going to talk about Optimus Primal and how I would argue that he is a Superman analog. And before we started recording, Derek and I were talking about how probably of any Transformers character, especially any Beast wars character, Optimus prime is the best example of a Superman type character in the series. 01:50 Derek Van Dyke And that also, I think that primal specifically is probably the best version of Optimus to make that analog with in terms of the ways that Primal is a unique character from G, one Optimus, or, like, prime or Energon or any of those other versions of Optimus Primal, very much stands out in that regard to me. 02:11 Case Aiken Yeah. I mean, so much so that in the episode victory, there is a direct, like, it's a bird, it's a plane. It's exactly. I mean, we're all 90s babies here. This seemed kind of like an appropriate little session of just, like, nostalgia and looking at a thing that definitely, even if the metaphor is forced, it is the heroic archetype that we try to talk about on this piece, where a character has the power of action and does his or her best to make the world a better place, regardless of threats and regardless of the ability to do more in a way that would be harmful to others and trying to avoid those types of situations. So we picked out a bunch of episodes from the first season to really focus on for this. But we'll talk about the series as a whole. 02:56 Case Aiken We'll talk about some of the other characters. We're obviously going to talk about code of Hero because we're not monsters on this podcast. And that has to be discussed if we're talking about beast wars. But we are going to try to frame the conversation mostly about Optimus Primal, who is just goddamn awesome. And I think a good place to start, then, before we actually get into the episodes, is just how Optimus Primal is not Optimus prime. They're very similar characters. They are obviously both the leader types for the group. But for one thing, Optimus Primal isn't just the biggest fucking dude in the room. 03:28 Jmike Folson Always. 03:30 Derek Van Dyke Yeah, he's interestingly, like, perfect middle size. Rhinox and Dinobot are bigger than, like, several characters. Outsize him in stature, so he's not the big guy of the team like Optimus traditionally is. 03:45 Case Aiken Right? I mean, Skyfire aside, or Omega supreme or any of the other really weird ones out there, Optimus prime was always sort of positioned as being the biggest one. And some of that is japanese toy convention of having the leader types always be the biggest action figure, which is true for the Optimus primal gorilla figure. Although of course, for those of us from the 90s who remember when the Beast wars toys first came out, Optimus Primal was a bat. 04:09 Derek Van Dyke Oh God. That's right. I forgot that the first toy was a bat. Wow. 04:15 Case Aiken Yeah. And Megatron was a crocodile. 04:17 Derek Van Dyke I don't think I ever saw the megatron crocodile. 04:20 Case Aiken Yeah, well, and then they got phased out and they put out. Right, right. 04:23 Derek Van Dyke And then we got the ones that. 04:24 Case Aiken Are the monkey nut truck version of Optimus. While the figure was the biggest. There's a little bit of a weirdness when you look at Rhinox. Like, depending on the shot, rhinox is clearly bigger in beast form, but sometimes a little bigger. A little. Maybe not quite as tall, but wider in terms of sizing. It's still early. 04:40 Derek Van Dyke They don't always make him, like, way taller than everyone else. Rhinox is the big guy because he's also just wide and stock. He's built like a linebacker. 04:49 Case Aiken Yeah. Meanwhile, Dinobot is definitely the tallest of at least the season one maximals, and just is one of the biggest of the show, just generally speaking, which continues to be useful for him even when he does not get some of the upgrades that the others do. But yeah, no, Optimus, he's not the biggest one in the room. He is pretty tough, and he is actually pretty capable. One of the big differences that they make in Beast wars versus g one transformers is that they can't all fly explicitly whatever the hell was going on in the more than meets the eye pilot. And then in later episodes where it's like, oh, I guess we forgot how to fly. Optimus Primal is the unique one on the early team. He's the flyer for the group to. 05:27 Derek Van Dyke The point that's a huge advantage for the enemy team, the predacons, because they have multiple flyers, and we've just got Optimus on the good guy's side. And since he's also the commander, it's risky to have him flying around on basic scout duty. 05:42 Case Aiken Right. Scouting, you would think, would go to the flyer. He's also not the heaviest heavy, but he's a heavy on the team. They make a very big point early in the pilot of, like, in terms of COVID fire, Optimus can move faster to a location, but he's also going to be a better person to lay down suppressing fire in a situation. You kind of need him to be able to move into those spots. And so what that means is that Optimus primal in Beast wars is a generalist for the majority of the show. Yeah. 06:09 Jmike Folson Mid tier character. 06:10 Case Aiken That's a niche that a Superman type often falls into when they actually scale the power levels accordingly for a team, as opposed to having the big fluctuations of a full on Superman in the group. Because Optimus is durable as hell. He's strong as hell. He can fly, and he's got firepower, but he's not necessarily the top for any of them. He's the red mage on the team, which, if you're seeing everyone as having stats that get spread out and some people focus on some, the Superman type is going to be. Yeah, fast, strong, durable, good up close. 06:39 Derek Van Dyke Good from afar, good at thinking out a plan while not necessarily being, like, the master tactician. Like you said, a little bit of everything. 06:46 Jmike Folson Yeah, I thought that was because this iteration, like, when the first episode, they clearly say they're explorers. 06:52 Case Aiken Yes. 06:52 Jmike Folson So I was like, okay, they're not, like, beefy types that we're used to seeing. So I thought that kind of got explained away right there. I was like, okay, they're just doing their thing, and this optimist is just like, copernicus, Galileo. 07:03 Derek Van Dyke Yeah, well, and that's kind of a good point too, that this optimist is not a definitive military leader with a ton of experience. This is a scientist and a man of peace, and he has doubts. I think that, like, g one Optimus, who was really the only other version of Optimus that existed at the time that beast wars came out, right? 07:27 Case Aiken I think, yeah, I mean, there's g two Optimus toys and comics, but there hadn't really been, like, a mainstream transformers. 07:34 Jmike Folson I remember Megatron saying throughout these episodes is that at this point in the Transformers timeline, the Autobots had won the war. The Autobots had won the war. And the predicons, decepticons were underneath them. Now, I don't know how that figured out and everything else. 07:49 Case Aiken Well, it's a weird part, and I'll go into it, because I watched these to death back when I actually got them dvd. I watched these back in the day. Initially, I taped these off of vcrs and rewatched it, but I bought the dvds and I listened to the commentary tracks a ton. So I have some input from that which I did not get a chance to re listen to. So I'm only going touch on it a little bit. It's a weird series of a show in that it is technically in continuity with the original Transformers show in a way that is different from all the other transformers stuff that has come since. There has been a ton of Transformers material of all types, including additional versions of Beast wars characters and so forth. 08:23 Case Aiken What we're saying, though, is at the time when this came out, there was Peter Cullen as Optimus prime, and now we're getting Gary Chalk as Optimus Primal and setting those two up as different characters. 08:35 Derek Van Dyke Yes, and spoilers for a late 90s animated series. But it's both a sequel and prequel to the original transformers as opposed to a reimagining. And I just think that's also so interesting because to me, gen one Optimus is not a lot of a character. He's cool, right? But because it's Peter Cullen, and he just has some raw lines to lay down. But to me, it's the more dynamic personality of primal, of being somebody who does have doubts, being somebody who does fail more, somebody who is a boy scout, but also kind of aware of the ways that holds them back sometimes and has to struggle with that, I think makes him a more interesting character for actually engaging with the question of what it means to be a leader. 09:26 Case Aiken What it means to be a hero. 09:28 Derek Van Dyke Even sometimes, if you don't want to be, but just because you're the one. 09:32 Case Aiken Who is best able to be, right? I mean, he was the leader of a scientific exploration vessel and all of a sudden had to do a police action against war criminals. And it's stuck in this situation where in a Dino riders style pilot sequence, they transport back in time and crash land on ancient Earth and have to contend with weird histories and all that. I think this also goes for the fact that the supporting cast is so strong. And part of that is that this is a mid to late 90s CGI cartoon wherein they couldn't have that many characters. Like the original Transformers had, like, a fuck ton of characters, especially, oh, my God, we can't keep track of. And on purpose, like, to the point where they just start introducing characters. They don't need to be like, oh, here's the new guy. 10:16 Case Aiken It's just like, this guy's always been here, right? Like, you know, Perceptor, the microscope guy. You know him, right? He's been in all these episodes somewhere. 10:25 Derek Van Dyke He was just off screen. 10:26 Case Aiken Yeah, no, he was down in the science lab doing science stuff. And this episode has science stuff. So here's Perceptor. You know the guy. And so with Beast wars, the show had a very small roster. It's five characters on each side initially, where they make up for the fact that they don't have the virtue of Transformers properties in general, which is that you like the ones that you think is cool, and then you have so many that everyone's going to find one that they think is cool, and you keep going. In this case, they had to be like, here's the distinct personalities for the five that we can animate on each side. 11:00 Derek Van Dyke Yeah, here's the personalities they have. Here are the skills that they have, how all of this stuff informs each other, and then how those characters have to change over the course of the episodes. Because Beast wars is really good about having characters start at one place and then have to change and grow, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse, as events affect them and stick with them in a way that was kind of rare for a lot of animation of the time. You have a lot of these animated shows of the time, and especially the original Transformers. Right? Where the point was, like, we have our episode plot of the week, and at the end, everything's going to go back to the status quo, right? And Beast wars really threw that out. 11:42 Case Aiken The window, for one thing. We have such dynamic supporting cast members like Rattrap and Dinobot on the hero side, where Rattrap is insubordinate, a coward, super competent, and a prick. Like, it's great, that whole combination right there. And then you have Dinobot, who was a reformed bad guy, and anyone who knows me knows that I am a sucker for reformed bad guy. No, like, Anubis is my favorite character on Ronan Warriors, Dinobot is one of my favorite characters. Piccolo is my favorite dragon Ball Z character. The honorable bad guy who realized the errors of his way and has reformed in ways that are logically consistent and not just because we needed a heel face turn for the sake of the plot, is so fucking good. And Dinobot is that. 12:31 Case Aiken And again, we're going to talk about code of hero, because we have to talk about code of hero. It's so goddamn good. But that means that right from the get go, we've got people who are arguing against Optimus Primal. Rattrap, who is on his team, who was part of his crew, asks him if he's up to the task constantly because the mission is different. First episode all the time. Like, Rattrap refuses a direct order, and so Optimus Primal has to put himself in danger. And then later is like, here is why I did this thing. Here's why I explained it this way, and I asked you to do it because it made more sense that way. And instead, we did it this way, and now we're hurt, and we're not in a good position where we can actually easily fix ourselves. Things are bad. 13:13 Case Aiken And then Ratchup still is giving him shit. It's not like a one time, and then it's fine. Every single time afterwards, he's giving him crap until eventually he finally learns to trust him. 13:23 Jmike Folson Optimus had to tell him early on. He's like, I'm not going to put you in positions and things that I wouldn't do myself, so you're going to have to trust me. And Raptrap's like, man, whatever. 13:34 Case Aiken Sure, Optimus. And that's such a good line. 13:37 Derek Van Dyke Better you than me. 13:39 Case Aiken That honestly has stuck with me in terms of my management style so much more, probably more than it's, like, healthy in some regards, where I'll throw myself out there to work on a project where I'm like, I probably should have been focusing on the macro. There have been plenty of times where it's like, oh, yeah, this project that needed to be done by the end of the month. I'm now cramming to finish because were in the weeds about something else somewhere earlier in the month kind of thing. But I think that's such a great aspect of his character. He is completely prepared to lead from the front, to take the hits, to do all that, even if he sees the best way to do it is this. And that's the plan I'm going to go with. 14:13 Case Aiken But when something doesn't work, when circumstances change, he'll get out there. There's no problem with that. And it's not for glory. It's not for honor. It's not for anything like that. This is the best plan. And does it make the most sense for me to be there? Yes. No. But it's never out of cowardice. It's never even self preservation from the standpoint of, like, well, I'm the commander. I have to survive so I can keep making new plans. Like, when the plan fails to make a new plan type character. No, he's not that. He just is aware that he's also pretty well equipped to do a bunch of different jobs because he's the red mage on the right. Yeah. 14:47 Derek Van Dyke And especially bringing up rat Trap and the way that rat trap kind of does not respect Optimus's authority at first. 14:55 Case Aiken Can we just pause before we go further on a discussion of rat Trap? And let's just say for anyone who has not watched the show, rat Trap is Rocket Raccoon. 15:03 Derek Van Dyke Yeah, I mean, that's a great point of comparison for modern audiences, like, to. 15:08 Case Aiken The point where I'm wondering if when they kind of rebooted rocket raccoon to be the character that he is in the comics, if they were looking at, like, they're that close. Yeah, we're all going to die, right? That's his catchphrase. We're all going to die. 15:22 Derek Van Dyke God, Scott McNeil is just so good as half the cast of this show. Yeah, but, like Rattrap, it's a great example of. One of the most powerful aspects of Optimus Primal, to me, is the effect that he has on the rest of the cast. Rat Trap is somebody who starts off as very cowardly, very insubordinate, and obviously, he's always going to be the team loudmouth and the team cynic. But over the course of especially that first season, you really watch rat trap, like, one step at a time. Have to learn from Optimus's example and from Cheetor some. But in that case, it's still indirectly Optimus, because Cheetor adores Optimus and is trying to do everything he can to mirror that behavior, sometimes to overly enthusiastic. 16:12 Derek Van Dyke But, like, it's that drags rat trap into being more of a team player, being more heroic, putting himself at risk more when he's the best person for a job you can watch over the course of that first season, how much he changes. And that's entirely Optimus's influence as a leader. 16:33 Case Aiken Yeah, that's the best part about Optimus, which is that the team becomes better because of his presence there. He inspires people to better, which is exactly the kind of thing we talk about on this show and why the archetype of, like, a hero who is doing their best is important. 16:51 Derek Van Dyke Yeah, it's not enough to be the leader and be like the jack of all trades. You also have to be a little bit the Paladin. Right? Like, you have to be somebody who, it's not just the actions that you take, but how you empower the people around you to better, to teach young and impressionable Cheetor to think a little bit more ahead, to teach rat trap to be kind of braver, to be an example for Dinobot to clash against. Right. Which is so fascinating because Dinobot never fully takes on Optimus's ideals. But I think especially by code of Hero, we'll get to it. You do see how much he has learned by his time with the maximals. 17:33 Case Aiken Why don't we actually dig into the episodes that we wanted to talk about? The ones that we highlighted specifically were the two part pilot BSors, episode ten, guerrilla warfare episode twelve, victory episode 24 before the storm, which is really just the first part of the three part finale, and then the two part finale of season one, which is other voices, and then Code of hero, because again, we're not monsters here. Yeah. So talking about beast wars, the Pilot, I emailed you guys when I was watching it because right from the get go. Oh my God, this show is so good at economy of storytelling. 18:06 Derek Van Dyke Yes. 18:06 Case Aiken We've got the whole transwarp. We've come through time and space and we're having this whole fight over this weird alien world. And we set up elements about all the different characters on the ship. We set up like, it's an exploration vessel, not a battle cruiser. Like all those little bits right there. We set up the proto forms, which is such an ingenious little element of like. Yeah. Now we know we're going to want to introduce characters more over the course of the season, at least. How do we do that? Here is an element that will work, but we don't have to worry about it right now. 18:37 Derek Van Dyke Here's a massive number of ticking time bombs for new characters that we can introduce as many as we want whenever we want down the road. But they're not here now, right? 18:46 Jmike Folson They're floating in space. 18:47 Derek Van Dyke Yeah, they're just sleeping. 18:50 Case Aiken There's the whole inner John situation that is on the planet in season one, where their robot forms are unable to function for prolonged periods of time in the environment. And so that they have to turn into animals as a way of basically, like, Terminator style clothing themselves in meat as a way to bypass a thing. And that's a really fun exposition bit that they set up very quickly. They bring up the great War, which, according to the commentary tracks, they didn't fucking know what that meant. They didn't know they were necessarily talking about the original transformers at the time. That all came later. And the fact that it fit so smoothly is incredible. 19:24 Derek Van Dyke Sometimes you get lucky. Sometimes you say the phrase the Clone wars, and you figure it out later. 19:30 Case Aiken You know what I mean? We introduce all these characters. We set up all that, and then we start setting up their capabilities very quickly. 19:38 Derek Van Dyke Right. 19:38 Case Aiken When they leave the ship for the first time, we start seeing the zooming in eye effect that Optimus Primal has, even in ape form, which I think is such a great way of one reminding everyone they're robots and they can do XYZ. I always thought that their augmented reality vision stuff was, like, one of the coolest secret abilities that they had, as opposed to the really obvious, like, I have a gun that comes out of my ape arm kind of thing. Yeah, no, they're still robots here. And just to continue the comparison with Superman. Yeah, he's got supervision on top of flight, and he's a robot. Yeah. 20:11 Derek Van Dyke Every character gets moments that are, like, establishing the most important pieces of their personality at the start of the show. Right. Like, rat trap is going to be cynical and cowardly from the get go. Rhinox is going to be the Peacekeeper and also the big guy who's like, nope, you know what? I don't care if there's a rock I can break through that know Cheetor is going to run off on his own when everyone says, stop, wait, he's already gone. 20:40 Case Aiken Right. And then establish that the communications are limited because of the environment that they're in, so they can't just, like, radio everywhere. 20:47 Derek Van Dyke The energon is such a brilliant little piece of plot BS in Beast wars, because the way that they've made the energon out to be in this, it is a resource that they desperately need and can fight over in however many episodes they feel like. It is the reason the bad guys are there, which makes it accidentally the reason the good guys are there. It is a limiting factor. Right. Because it is incredibly dangerous and forces them to arbitrarily whenever the plot demands it. Right? Oh, there's so much energon. We've got to stay in Beast form. Right? Like, it can be a limiter for the plot of the episode, which is used to great effect many times. 21:29 Derek Van Dyke And then finding out new weird things and ways that it interacts with a lightning strike or a certain piece of technology gives them the ability to bs in the plot. For a bottle episode, it's one singular element that really makes the show kind of by how it gets to both be the prize and the hazard. Yeah, if that makes sense. 21:54 Jmike Folson I feel like later on, they kind of forgot about a lot of the energon stuff they set up. 21:58 Case Aiken Yeah, because at first they're like, oh. 22:00 Jmike Folson We can't be in our robot forms for more than, like, two minutes. And by season two, they're having full on guerrilla warfare out there for hours at a time, like killing each other. And like, oh, wait, the season two. 22:14 Case Aiken They deliberately say all the energon because it's unstable energon, as opposed to what we had seen in OG transformers, where it's like, here's just cubes of stuff that soundwave emitted from his chest that can soar up the coal energy from this furnace or whatever. They make a point that it is different. It's unstable. It's dangerous, and there's so much of it and that the season one finale destroys most of it and transforms what's there into a stable version that does not affect them. 22:42 Jmike Folson Energon cubes. 22:43 Derek Van Dyke Unless you're, like, right up on it. 22:45 Jmike Folson Right. 22:45 Case Aiken Really, the split between season one and two is like a complete, like, we're just like, wiping the floor with all the status quo that we had set up in season one so that we can get away with doing a much weirder season two. And I like a lot of season two, but it loses some of the vibrancy of the first season. It's way more deserts and it's way more like battleground vistas as a. 23:04 Derek Van Dyke Just mesas and stuff. 23:05 Case Aiken Yeah, exactly. 23:06 Derek Van Dyke As far as the eye can see. 23:07 Jmike Folson So what you're saying is you don't like silverbolt? Shame on you, Casey. 23:10 Case Aiken I actually like silverbolt. But you know what? If fucking Silverbolt showed up in season one, he'd be interesting showing up in season two, right when they're showing up, like, being like, here's transmetals and here's all this other stuff going on, and here's Jesus fucking gorilla, man. Like, Silverbolt gets lost in the gouache at that point. 23:26 Derek Van Dyke He's just here to be very beautiful and stupid. 23:32 Case Aiken I mean, yes. So, like, the pilot does a lot of great stuff here. We set up the stakes. We establish, like, yeah, at first it's four on five as far as teams go, because dinobot, very quickly, you think he might be like the starscream of the team gets into a fight with Megatron. I love it where it's like leadership takes cunning and cleverness as well. Wouldn't you say? So Scorponok, like, just shoots him away. 23:55 Derek Van Dyke I do like, also, the pilot is the only time Scorponok is ever a threat. Very quickly becomes the butt monkey of the enemy team. 24:07 Case Aiken I mean, is he the worst butt monkey? It's hard to really say. 24:11 Derek Van Dyke Look, nobody out. Butt monkeys. Waspinator. 24:14 Jmike Folson Hey, we put some respect. 24:20 Case Aiken Secret best characters, the same. God, we love some of these characters. And some of these best characters are all voiced by the same person. 24:33 Derek Van Dyke Yeah, I know, right? I do love how they have a completely unsubtle like, yeah, this is the actual starscream in pterosaur. To the point of, like, he just sounds, looks, acts like everything like him gets possessed by Starscream. 24:48 Case Aiken In an episode. 24:50 Derek Van Dyke Waspinator gets possessed by Starscream. That's right. 24:53 Case Aiken When Starscream shows up in that. Not exactly a deep cut, but the fact that the Starscream ghost thing had been set up already, it's like, oh, that's fun. 25:02 Derek Van Dyke Yeah. 25:02 Case Aiken And also, as one of my favorite lines in the show, which is when black Arachnia betrays starscream and says, are all your dreams in Technicolor? But getting back to the pilot, so we've got this power imbalance, which I think is really fun. We also established that they are not that fucking big. Like, it's not Transformers OG style, where it's like, yeah, he's a truck that turns into a robot, but what if he's even bigger than that truck? What if the microscope guy is as big as the truck guy? What if the boombox is four stories tall? 25:33 Derek Van Dyke What if the bad guy turns into a regular handgun? 25:37 Case Aiken At least it made sense with G two when they turned him into a tank. 25:40 Derek Van Dyke Yeah, but, yeah, all the transformers are like, roughly analogous to human size. I think they're mostly a little bigger than your average person if you scale them against the pre humans in later seasons. But they're like six to 10ft tall, not 18ft 45. 26:00 Case Aiken Yeah, we know that Cheetor is the same size as a regular cheetah because of direct comparison there, we know that rat trap is very big. For a rat. But it appears that Optimus Primal is about the right size for a gorilla, which means that he's big for a person, but not terrifyingly big. And rhinox actually seems kind of small. And actually, Megatron seems kind of small for a T Rex. 26:20 Derek Van Dyke I mean, again, getting into the arachnids, I've never seen a tarantula that size. And if I ever did, I would die on. 26:30 Jmike Folson Snap my own neck. 26:32 Derek Van Dyke I'm out. 26:35 Case Aiken And what a roster of villains. We talked about terror sore being just the starscream. Like, he's there for that role. We've got Waspinator as the bumbling ally that we like, and we've got Scorponok as the bumbling ally that we don't like in terms of the bad guys, but fucking tarantulas, man. 26:52 Derek Van Dyke Fucking tarantulas. And it's crazy to go back to the first few episodes of the show and realize, like, a, they hadn't quite nailed down how much Waspinator was going to suck, and they hadn't quite nailed down what they wanted to do with tarantulas yet. Right. It takes a few episodes for them to really be like, actually, tarantulas is going to be the smart guy. 27:11 Case Aiken Well, they, right off the bat, say that he's the only one who has the skill to break down the giant rock of inner John that they find. And then the next episode is the web episode where he captures and tortures Cheetor. So I think at the very least, they were like, he's going to be the scary spider, right? 27:26 Derek Van Dyke Yeah, yeah. That's why they gave him the. It's. It's perfect. But the amount to which tarantulas becomes a capital p problem, I don't know that they had really planned out at that point. 27:40 Case Aiken No. And that's fair. This show is so good at. Yes. Ending in a way, once you know how little they knew what they were doing in the pilot, it fits so goddamn well. When you get to the end of season one and you see all the machinations of tarantulas and Megatron and how it plays out and all that. That's all really good. And you get to the shit at the end of season two where it's like, oh, man, it's g one transformers. And they're all there. But they didn't know shit about transformers when they made the show. They didn't know what they were doing. They were told, make a fucking show with these toys. These are the reboot guys. 28:19 Derek Van Dyke Yeah. Even the pilot is a perfect example of how they. Yes. And did from the beginning. Because I think you look at the pilot episodes compared to the third episode, and you see that within the pilot, there is so much more of transforming has to come with the full. 28:37 Case Aiken Yeah, they have, like, an activation mode. 28:39 Derek Van Dyke Or Cheetor maximize and then lengthy transformation sequence. And from as early as episode three, they're like, okay, we can cut down on the dramatic yelling at the sky and then stock footage. That's not the tone that's working for us. Let's minimize that a bit. I think it's interesting to see how much more expositional dialogue is in that first episode or two in a way that works great. Like you said, to set up, like, economy of storytelling, to set the stage in one or two episodes. But the format of dialogue changes so much by the third episode. 29:14 Case Aiken Yeah, I mean, obviously, it's kind of nice in the first episode to have them all do individually their activation codes where they say their full name and then what team they're on. If they say maximize or terrorize and go through that, also establish that it's just a code word that they can just change because Dynobot does it, which is a nice detail there. That's fun. That's power rangers for you. 29:34 Derek Van Dyke Changes his tattoo. 29:38 Case Aiken It's the 90s. We were suckers for it then. I'm still a sucker for it now. But you don't need to do that going forward. And eventually we get an episode where they full on are just like, oh, no. They're all in sync with their animal selves. Now. The call of the wild episode where they all regress to their animal forms and then, like, tiger Tron gets them stoned and, like, no, man, you just need to vibe with your animal self. But that does allow for really cool moves, like rat trap, like rolling as a rat and then standing up as a robot and shooting things. All those kind of maneuvers that really come into play in the second half of the season, which also goes for what kind of choreography can they do in the early episodes, if you're really paying attention? 30:14 Case Aiken Even some of the shots where it's like a different angle, it's still the model in the same motion. They can move the camera around, but the gunfire motions are oftentimes the same animation. Just like, move which angle that they're looking at the model from. And that's because this is a 90s CGI show. This is the reboot studio. This is the show that the reboot studio did right after reboot. Yeah, I was going to say to. 30:34 Derek Van Dyke Clarify for a lot of folks who don't. There was a show called reboot. 30:38 Case Aiken That is not the recent show called Reboot. 30:41 Derek Van Dyke Yeah, there's a CGI show called Reboot before this. This is not a studio that does reboots. It's a capital r reboot. I remember nothing about reboot, to be honest. 30:52 Case Aiken Reboot is great, but this came out between season two and three. And so season one and two of reboot is rough, particularly season one. 31:01 Derek Van Dyke It looks rougher to look back at, for sure. I think part of it, too, is that because beast wars, the designs are robots and toy animals, they don't have to look as off putting as, like, we made blue people. 31:15 Case Aiken Right. 31:15 Derek Van Dyke You know what I mean? 31:17 Case Aiken And even that was choices that were made to get around the fact that it was Tron as a tv show. It was set inside of a computer so that they didn't have to be that realistic because it was a tv budget CGI show, which at the time was really difficult to do. Side note, there is a call out to reboot, which is one of the catchphrases for the main character, which is there's just no pleasing some people. Optimus Primal says to rat trap at one point in the pilot. 31:40 Derek Van Dyke Yeah, I remember that line. 31:43 Case Aiken But the point is, this is the show that they pick up after that before they come back for the amazing season three and the lackluster season four of reboot. Season three of reboot, one of the best things you can ever watch. I will continue to sing its praises forever. It's fantastic, but this show is very clearly part of this phase of a group of people learning to work with their budgets and using the restrictions of the medium that they're working in to jumpstart creativity. We have such a defined, cool supporting cast in the show because they only have the resources to make five models for each side. We've got ten characters total, and we have a pretty clear idea of what they're able to do in all cases. 32:24 Derek Van Dyke Yeah, well, and that's why, again, new characters come in at a semi steady pace, but paced out, it takes a bit for Tigatron to show up, and then it takes a bit for black arachni to show up, and then it's eraser and then Inferno. Right. 32:40 Case Aiken And there's a reason why the first two that come in, I mean, also this kind of ties into the toys, which is that they're palette swaps. Like, yes, they have design changes, but a lot of the foundations for the models are based on the same characters. Tiger Tron is Cheetor. 32:55 Derek Van Dyke They're clone characters. 32:56 Case Aiken Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 32:57 Derek Van Dyke Down to the same rifle with the brain in the back of the gun for some reason. 33:01 Case Aiken It's a marthroy situation. Yeah. And black arachnia with tarantulas. And it's great there because. Oh, my. Like, what two wonderful characters did they spawn from this whole thing? Yeah. 33:13 Derek Van Dyke Holy shit. Those two being at each other's throats the entire time is just. 33:18 Case Aiken Yeah, just great details. But we don't get them until later. And they're fun additions, but they have to pick and choose their battles for when they bring a new character in who's going to be important, and yada, yada in the pilot, right off the bat, it's like, all right, well, here's, like, a little first confrontation. There's, like, a little pit and a rock, and we can establish some character stuff. And they do really good stuff because this is where Rattrap refuses to jump into battle. And we get, like, rhinox being, like, the big tough. Like, they need cover fire. 33:45 Case Aiken So I'm picking you up, and this is a whole groot rock and raccoon situation right here, where he's holding Rattrap, who's firing in one hand, using Cheetor's gun in the other, because they didn't really want to show off his Uzi as his main weapon in the pilot. 33:56 Derek Van Dyke Yeah, the chain gun with a buzzsaw blade on it for some reason. 34:01 Case Aiken Buzsaw blade within three. It's so weird. 34:08 Derek Van Dyke He never once used that thing to hit him. 34:11 Case Aiken No, but he does shoot some people at point blank rage several times. 34:14 Derek Van Dyke He sure perforates some folks with it. That's for sure. 34:18 Case Aiken Is so great. And we will mention beast machines at the end of this. But there is a reason why I hate beast machines. 34:24 Derek Van Dyke There's no human being who loves beast. I cannot believe that's possible. 34:30 Case Aiken So we get, like, this wonderful confrontation between them that sets up all this character stuff. We set up the efficacy of the Predacons, and then the first episode of the two part pilot ends with, well, now we've got to have a battle for victory between Dinobot and Optimus Primal, which is nice to set up. I love Dinobot. I love him having this, like, well, I need honor. Like, I can't just beat you with treachery. I wouldn't have earned leadership there. And that's such a good way of setting up. He's going to work here because he's the bad guy, but he's lawful evil. And you guys are fighting chaotic evil right now. Yeah. And he's powerful. 35:06 Case Aiken He's got those fucking eye beams and he's big and he's got a weird tail spin blade thingy, which, thank God, in code of hero, he uses as like a helicopter device. Yes, man, dinobot. So here's a weird thing. I love the Megatron design in season one. I think it's really cool. I love the Trex head as the arm. I feel like it's a great shout out to the g one transformers, where Megatron, weirdly, it's the scope of the gun, but it acts as a blaster that's on his arm. I feel like it works very well there. I always thought it was weird though, that they didn't just use the Grimlock design. And then I realized that Dinobot is Grimlock. And in fact, there is an alternate color toy of dinobot that is called Grimlock. 35:47 Derek Van Dyke Oh, I didn't know they did have Beast Wars. Grimlock. 35:50 Case Aiken Never in the actual series. Yeah. But if you look at his transformation sequence, it has actually the same positioning that's going on where the head goes down to the chest, the legs extend out from the chest and are not part of the main body. And that the legs of the dinosaur form slide up and become the upper torso arms. 36:08 Derek Van Dyke Okay. 36:09 Case Aiken And then the tail splits open. And on grimlock, it splits open and becomes like part of his back. In this case, it becomes a separate spinny weapon thing with his spine being his sword. 36:19 Derek Van Dyke Yeah. Or something. 36:21 Case Aiken That's the extension of the spine. 36:23 Derek Van Dyke Yeah. It's one long thing. One long spaghetti noodle. Right. 36:28 Case Aiken So there is some weird headcanon of like. Well, but maybe Dinobot is the descendant. The point is that they went with this very tried and true design for the character to be then this weird villainous lancer character. 36:44 Derek Van Dyke Yeah. 36:44 Case Aiken In a five man band. That sort of makes the most sense. Right. Because then, yeah, he was effectively the. 36:50 Derek Van Dyke Number two on the predicon side. And then he defects. And because the maximals just do not have that same explicit sort of hierarchy structure, it's like, okay, well, I'm not the leader. What am I? And it's like, here's the guy. Here's one of the boys now. And clearly he struggles forever to figure out how he is supposed to work as a soldier, as somebody who believes in hierarchies, as somebody who believes in a chain of command. Again, like there's science. This is not a military that he has joined. 37:24 Case Aiken Yeah. And it's like a small crew. It's not the starship Enterprise. Like, yeah, we've got rhinox. He's really good at scanning shit. And Rattrap's really good at fixing machines and making bombs. 37:35 Derek Van Dyke He's sort of the engineer. 37:36 Case Aiken Again, Rattrap is just fucking rocket raccoon. 37:40 Derek Van Dyke Technician, demolitions expert, snarky little guy, and I love it. 37:48 Case Aiken It's definitely not plagiarism in terms of rat trap, and it's archetypal, but it's just so well done here. Yeah. 37:53 Derek Van Dyke It's a defining version of that archetype for me. 37:57 Case Aiken We have this wonderful face off between the two of them where we get to establish Dinobot's credentials as being honorable, and we also get to see Optimus primal showing that. Yeah. In addition to having guns that come out of his body and rockets and guns that come out of his arms, he also has swords. He has, like, dual scimitars. Yeah. 38:17 Derek Van Dyke Like a copesh or something. 38:19 Case Aiken He is very capable. And then we establish, like, all right, well, the predacons show up, and they fuck up the whole thing, and then they blow up a mountain. It's like, oh, there's a big energon thing, and they both have to separately go to it. And again, economy of storytelling, or at least, like, seeding what's out there, they're like, this is a really weird world with, like, two moons and all this other shit. Also, that's fucking Stonehenge right there. That definitely was not put here by a thing we've seen so far. 38:41 Derek Van Dyke And I love, too, how it kind of confuses you of, like, okay, well, we've landed on earth, clearly, because there's earth animals and there's Stonehenge, but there are two moons that they call attention to. And the geography and landscape is still very alien and full of energon in a way that it is not by transformers g one time or just the modern day. And I love how they even use the pilot to set up things that will be the focus of several episodes separately down the road, and then many of which will loop back around for the season finale. 39:16 Case Aiken Yeah. And then the pilot kind of concludes with a big five on five battle in the energon field. So they can't transform because it's too dangerous. And we get. 39:25 Derek Van Dyke You get to watch the aminels fight. 39:27 Case Aiken I mean, some really, like, right off the bat, they are okay with reminding people, like, yeah, no, a t. Rex would be really, like, there's a shot, and they use it. In the opening credits of Megatron trying to bite Optimus Primal's neck. 39:41 Jmike Folson Oh, yeah. 39:41 Case Aiken And you're like, yeah, no, that's real bad. And side note, a gorilla would not have been able to survive. We gorillas are strong compared to us gorillas are not strong compared to Tyrannosaurus rexes. 39:54 Derek Van Dyke Right. There's a mass difference. Know. 39:57 Case Aiken But he's also a small T Rex. 39:59 Derek Van Dyke Yeah, but also just the way that, like, coming into that sequence, like, megatron, like, stomping in and the fact that it shakes the camera as he strides in ahead of the rest of his crew. It's very like, yes. Okay. Yep. You're selling that. This guy's big. Like, way bigger than everyone else on the field. 40:18 Case Aiken Right. But we also got a Mario 64 styled Optimus primal spinning it. 40:24 Jmike Folson Optimus swinging around, which I have to. 40:26 Case Aiken Imagine is just easy to animate because they're not really moving. You just spin the model around. 40:32 Derek Van Dyke But it's so good. It's so good to watch a gorilla swing a T Rex around. Right. And just yeet him there. Well, and also you get to see, like, rat trap. Do whatever rat trap does to tarantulas. That counts as an attack. 40:47 Case Aiken I don't know. 40:47 Derek Van Dyke It kind of seems like he tickles them. 40:49 Case Aiken I'm not really sure what it is. 40:50 Derek Van Dyke He goes, that's not even close to the sound. I give up. 40:56 Case Aiken Yeah, I mean, the pairing is okay, but as we pointed out, there's two flyers on the predicon side already. And it's not really, like a one to one kind of comparison right there. But it is close enough that it would fit any of the myriad two opposed army kind of tv shows that we had grown up on. At this point. If you could pair. 41:19 Derek Van Dyke Yeah, you could pair any of them off against any of the others. But I do like how the predicons and the maximals do not have clear analogs between each other. You don't have the clear cut good and bad version of the archetypes. You have pretty different dynamics on each team. 41:39 Case Aiken Yeah. Like, season one especially has just, like, very clear, different characters there. And then as we start adding people, they usually come in pairs. So that kind of puts them as opposite each other. Like, Tiger John and Black Arachnia are the first two that come in, and then Airazor and Inferno are the next two that come in for those fill in the slot of like, well, were missing this thing on our team. And then we get the fusors, where we get quickstrike and Silverbolt at the same time. Yeah. 42:08 Derek Van Dyke It's interesting to think of each character that gets added. And like, what is it that they're adding to each team? Right. And with Tigatron, we get the heroic character who can't be relied on to always be part of the super 6th. 42:22 Case Aiken Ranger when he shows up. 42:23 Derek Van Dyke Yes, the heroes get a one up, but it's not a one up that counts. And then Black Arachnia shows up. But Black Arachnia is even more double timing than pterosaur and tarantulas are. So it kind of doesn't fully count for the Predacons. And then we get Air razor and Inferno, who both do kind of fill out. But like, Inferno gives the predacons even more firepower. Air Razor gives the maximals another flyer they desperately needed. 42:52 Case Aiken But when Inferno joins, he's also a flyer in addition to being a heavy. 42:57 Derek Van Dyke Completely unreliable, no, he's reliable. 43:00 Case Aiken He's just. He's an idiot, though. 43:03 Derek Van Dyke Reliably going to fuck up everything in. 43:05 Case Aiken Front of him for better and for worse. Like, if you tell him, follow them, he will dig a hole underground below the level of a force field to make sure that he gets there because he's going to do his job. He's going to live up to the demands of his queen. For the colony, for the royalty. For the royalty. Yes, my queen, I do. She wouldn't call me that. But the pilot does his job is what I'm trying to say here. It's not an intensely complicated story that happens, but it sets up the first season so well. 43:39 Jmike Folson We will call these the beast War. He said the thing. 43:43 Case Aiken He said the thing. 43:44 Derek Van Dyke It's definitely cornier than the rest of the show, but it does a miraculous job of doing so much setup in just the first half of the pilot. You could do a writing class using that as an example of setting the foundation for what's to come. Most tv shows do not do that well. 44:03 Case Aiken Yeah, like, you know, the stakes. You know, everything that pops up after this point is introduced in the pilot. You have a clear idea of all of the characters, even if some of them end up being more of a fuck up than they are set up in this episode, and some of them end up being more of a fucking asshole than they are set up in this episode, they do a pretty good job of making sure you're aware of what are the players and what are they like. And God damn it, we haven't talked about Megatron that much yet. We got to talk about Megatron a little bit because his whole talking to himself thing and talking to his T. Rex hand especially is so good. 44:38 Jmike Folson Yeah, that got interesting. 44:39 Derek Van Dyke Later on, he gives it a rubber ducky. 44:41 Case Aiken Yeah. 44:41 Jmike Folson Because at times it looks like the arm is sentient and it's like looking back at him and communicating with him. But he's also kind of doing his. 44:51 Case Aiken He's not well, he's also doing the. 44:52 Jmike Folson Whole Dr. Claw thing where he's like. 44:54 Case Aiken Rubbing the arm, pets it like a cat. 44:56 Derek Van Dyke Yeah. 44:59 Jmike Folson Oh, yes. 45:01 Case Aiken I think in terms of setting up how different he is from, like, g one Megatron. He's fucking insane. He talks to his hand for the majority of season one. 45:10 Derek Van Dyke Yes, he's crazy, but he's crazy like a fox. 45:13 Case Aiken Yes. 45:14 Derek Van Dyke Because he is genuinely incredibly cunning. He is usually one step ahead, if not several steps ahead of Optimus and everybody on his side who is trying to murder him and take his place. Because that's the dynamic of the Predacons is like, most of them think they'd do a better job than him, and all of them are wrong. 45:34 Case Aiken Yeah. That's such a fun dynamic of the Predacons in general, where unlike in the original transformers, where it's two opposing sides and this is the army, that's like, kind of in the winning position. Like, the Decepticons have Cybertron mostly under control at the start of the series and pretty much cements their hold over the course of it. And so Megatron is the leader of this army. And while there's starscream, the majority of the people are like, people in the army with him. The Predacons in this are all criminals. And by that I mean there are predacons on Cybertron and they have their own governing body. Sorry. We're recording this in 2023. And you can probably make some weird comparisons to geopolitical stuff going on right now. But suffice it to say they are a subsidiary state with the maximals being the dominant power. 46:19 Case Aiken But the maximals are the good guys and kind of nice. And the Predacons are kind of like, well, we're working with them and we would like to not be doing this, but right now we've got our government and whatnot. And Megatron is a terrorist and he has criminals working with him that all have their own goals. And they're all criminals amongst the predacons. 46:38 Derek Van Dyke Yes, because there's a major plot point of the actual predicon leadership wanting him fucking taken care of. Because his actions destabilize the peace that they are currently in. And it's like, look, we don't like the maximals either, but we have our plans, and we're operating within the realm of politics, and you are operating within the realm of car bombing. You know what I mean? And we cannot have this. 47:05 Case Aiken Right. And that's a really interesting dynamic for these characters. You have to assume that some of that comes from the fact that this is a 90s show as opposed to an 80s show. The original show. Yeah, you could probably make a cold war parallel. And this is like the end of history. Everything is technically fine. We're at peace with everyone. But, oh, hey, there might be these terrorists out there. It's pre 911, but it's not pre the concept of terrorism. 47:30 Derek Van Dyke I mean, look, diehard existed before, you know what I mean? 47:35 Case Aiken And I also don't want to assign too much thought about the larger state of the world, but it is the zeitgeist that the show comes out of. 47:42 Derek Van Dyke Right. I think it gives us, like, a really interesting squad of villains in that regard. And I think to this day, it makes the Beast Wars Megatron the most memorable and version of Megatron out there. 47:57 Case Aiken Yes. Why do you always talk to yourself? 48:01 Jmike Folson His best and biased impersonation. 48:03 Derek Van Dyke I don't talk to myself. 48:04 Case Aiken I'm not intelligent conversation. It's not until episode ten that we really get a real optimus focused episode, and that is guerrilla warfare. And I love several things about this episode. For one thing, while it is a goofy as fuck, like, we learn something about this plant and it becomes, like, important for later element, which is very much a part of early beast wars. Like the first half of season one has a lot of these kind of like the natural world. We're studying these things, blah, blah. We get one, an incredible use of the biology of the different species that we're in, which is that we see that the dinosaurs have issues when shit gets attached to their neck. 48:42 Derek Van Dyke Oh, yeah. 48:43 Case Aiken Like the way dinobots tiny arms when it's happening is so good. We get some fun uses of Optimus primal, being a giant gorilla in that when he has to move a boulder, he uses his foot to move a stone to shift. Things like those are fun. Right there. We get Scorponok attempting to be the mad scientist archetype that he was intended to be, but then everyone immediately remembering that he's a giant fuck up in everything he does. 49:11 Derek Van Dyke Yes. And we get Optimus with the limiters removed. 49:17 Case Aiken And this is actually the thing that I really wanted to get to when I was saying, like, well, Optimus has the power of action to do a lot more than he necessarily does in the majority of the show, like, he's typically one of the strongest members of the team until he's definitely the strongest member of the team. 49:33 Derek Van Dyke Right. 49:33 Case Aiken The fact of the matter is, he could probably go into a bloody fight and kill a lot of people or lead a lot of people into a situation like that. But he's not about murdering people. He's about apprehending people who stole something. Like the death penalty is actually not what is required of that. He has restraint all the time up until he doesn't hear when a giant fly attaches to his chest and really fucks with his central nervous system. Yeah. 49:59 Jmike Folson Isn't the kryptonite. 50:00 Derek Van Dyke Yeah, well, and it's like, it's a great look. Everybody knows the famous world of cardboard speech with Superman. And that kind of applies here as it's the reminder that Optimus is holding back, because from his concept of morality, he is not supposed to be killing if he can avoid it, that's not what he is here to do. He is not comfortable with that. But also in terms of, like, he puts himself greatly at danger by going full berserker rage, and his team can't afford to lose him. So he could probably take out. As the episode establishes, most of the predacons single handedly die in the process, but then his team is left without him, and then where are they? It's multiple ways in which there's that recognition of, like, this is why I hold back. 50:49 Derek Van Dyke This is why I am not the ace on the team. 50:52 Case Aiken Yeah. When he is taken off the team, they fuck up trying to be like him, where we have to negotiate, and what they do is they spoil everything. They're like, here's a heads up that Optimus is coming your way. He's out of his mind. You can expect him anytime in the next hour. 51:07 Jmike Folson Perhaps only Optimus can think like Optimus. 51:10 Case Aiken Yeah, no way. So, yeah, I mean, he takes on tarantulas and he takes his anchor thingy. That is like, such a toyetic element. I remember, actually, that toy. It's like a spring loaded, like, grappling hook that fires off, and he uses the other end of it, which is sharp, to impale him against the wall. 51:25 Derek Van Dyke It's brutal. This episode goes hard. 51:28 Case Aiken Tanks. Like, all of these shots throughout these, which is such a Superman sequence of him just like, walking through gunfire to go into this whole fight. Fantastic stuff there. I mean, we're reminded, like, oh, yeah, big, scary, flying super monkey is kind of a scary thing. 51:43 Derek Van Dyke Yeah, it's fitting making him a gorilla because it's like, just like a gorilla. Right? We tend to not remember, oh, yeah, those things can rip your arm. 51:53 Case Aiken Yeah. It's a gentle giant situation. Yes. 51:55 Derek Van Dyke And be happy when they're being a gentle giant. Like, that's much preferred. Do the alternatives. 52:02 Case Aiken But in this episode, he decides to stop monkeying around and just truck on through everyone. And at the very end, we get the callback to the first part where it's like, oh, just shit. Attached to his neck. But in this case, it's Megatron, and he's got even smaller arms he can't even reach. It's a fun episode. I mean, it's not the deepest episode. It's like, well, what if he went angry and bad? And wouldn't that be bad? And I think it's good for this point in the show. It's ten episodes in. To remind us, like, yeah, no, the leader could be, like, a more aggressive Rob Liefeld style character, and that would be a problem because X, Y and Z and X, Y and Z here is like, he would probably die. You guys would probably die. The amount of devastation isn't worth it. 52:43 Case Aiken Like, the collateral damage, death, they are fighting, but they can be rebuilt. Most of the characters here take really bad punishment over time, and that doesn't kill them because they're robots. The rules are a little different. The rules get laid out over the course of the series for, like, what is a fatal kind of thing. But the death penalty is not just an automatic thing here. And that kind of incident is a big deal. Like, when a character actually dies. Dies. That is taken as a very serious thing, but it's also always on the table. 53:14 Derek Van Dyke This is a great example of a sort of a bottle episode. 53:17 Case Aiken Great. 53:17 Derek Van Dyke Like, first half of season. One example of we have a plot that wraps itself up by the end that doesn't drastically change the status quo and is informed by and also tells us more about certain characters. One of the things that does happen is there's a lot of collateral damage to equipment and bases, and that's the sort of thing beast wars makes a huge point of keeping you abreast of that. Damage to the ships matters because eventually these things have to get fixed and fly off. And you can put a somewhat damaged robot in the tank, and they will slowly recover over time if it's not a fatal injury. But when something gets broke, it's broken. When a door or a side of the ship gets blown out, now you've got a side of the ship that needs to get repaired. Resources are limited. 54:05 Derek Van Dyke Manpower is limited. That stuff matters. 54:08 Case Aiken And by this point in the series, we had seen a bunch of these kind of gimmicky episodes. Like, I think we had already had the teleporter episode at this point, the chain of command episode where Optimus is taken away and Ratchet has to lead. All the stuff that we kind of need to do just to be like, yep, this is the show we're dealing with here, but this is just a fun episode in terms of being like, we really need to establish what the leader is capable of and why is he not doing some of those things. Yeah, and I think you make a great point in terms of the damage to equipment. While the show has a status quo, more or less in season one, there are big shifts. 54:42 Case Aiken And when things happen that damage the two ships, that does have lasting impact in terms of the capabilities of the group, even while they are becoming more effective in their warfare, in developing new technology to fight with each other. 54:55 Derek Van Dyke But yeah, guerrilla warfare. Great. First half of season one episode, the pilot gives us the hero. We get to see Optimus continue to be just the leader in the background of several episodes leading up to that. And then we get to see, okay, no, he can rip ass in the right circumstances, but also here's why he does not. 55:15 Case Aiken Yeah, so moving on to. It's sort of the midseason finale, which is victory. I remember seeing this episode a lot, which I feel like the block probably ended somewhere about here. It's episode twelve. There's no actual victory. It's a fake out episode. It does do a really good job of setting up a recurring theme, which is that every time the maximals think that they have figured out espionage, they are reminded that the predacons are way better at espionage than they are, which I love because every time it's like, yeah, we figured out how to spy on their camera system. It's like, it's a good thing we figured out they're spying and now we have like fake information being fed to them. Right? Yeah. That's really great. 55:52 Jmike Folson Yes. 55:55 Case Aiken We open with. Were you guys deep Space Nine fans? There's an episode called the Pale moonlight, which is seen as like one of the better episodes of Star Trek in general, wherein there's kind of a similar thing where via deception, they are using a fake prerecorded sequence to mess with people in it. And in that scenario it's like way more fucked up than this. But it's still a scenario of the predacons have figured out that the maximals have been able to hardwire a feed from their security cameras. And so they pretend to die. 56:23 Derek Van Dyke Yeah, they stage, like, a fake rebellion and fight that leads to a horrible accident that kills them all, right? 56:29 Case Aiken Which, knowing going into the episode, it's like, okay, they're really playing it up in it all. But on the same token, pterosaur is a piece of shit who has betrayed Megatron multiple times at this point and continues to betray him because he is just fucking scream. The show knows that we're transformers fans. 56:47 Derek Van Dyke Starscream, but less intelligent, to be clear. 56:50 Case Aiken So much worse. Which is why they bring in real starscream, just to be like, oh, better Starscream here. 56:56 Derek Van Dyke Yeah. 56:56 Case Aiken And a reason why Pterosaur does not make it into season. You know, it's plausible. The only part that really threw me is that Scorpinok is on the side of pterosaur in that sequence. 57:06 Derek Van Dyke That should have been the giveaway, I think, to a lot of people. 57:09 Case Aiken Right. 57:09 Derek Van Dyke Because Scorponok's main defining trait for most of season one is that he's the one who stays loyal to Megatron. Unquestionably. Which probably also like the fact that Inferno comes in and is just that, but funnier is probably why Scorponok gets written off. 57:25 Case Aiken Right? Yeah, we're not going to talk that much about Inferno here, but I actually really like Inferno. He's a giant fuck up, but in a way that I really adore. 57:33 Derek Van Dyke Oh, incredibly funny. 57:37 Case Aiken But yeah. So they stage this fake death and then abandoned their base. And apparently black arachnia has developed some kind of tech that hides the signature from their sparks so that no one can actually identify that they are still alive and allow the maximals to raid their base, take all the stuff they would need to get their ship able to fly again, with the intent of then attacking the maximals and stealing the ship and flying off of it. I do have questions about how that all works based on the timeline that we see in this episode. But the big focus, and while Optimus is part of it, the big focus of this episode is Dinobot being like, well, if I go back to Cybertron, I am a criminal who was part of a massive theft of one of the great relics of our world. 58:21 Case Aiken And I left, and you guys pursued me and I was a turncoat and joined you when you pursued me. I have nothing to go home to. 58:29 Derek Van Dyke You're all going home. And I'm going to prison, right? 58:33 Jmike Folson Forever. 58:35 Case Aiken And it's an interesting moment because he decides to stay. And they are like, well, we got to get the ship going. We're going to go. And he's like, I'm going to conquer this world. It's like, well, that's kind of fucked up. I don't think that's a good idea. It's like, well, yeah, I'll probably die eventually. That won't be tomorrow. 58:50 Derek Van Dyke Yeah. 58:

It's exciting to reinvent a character as classic as Superman for a new generation while remaining true to his core. Case and Jmike are joined by Red and Blue from Overly Sarcastic Productions to gush about the first season of "My Adventures with Superman".

We're visited from Jala-chan's place by Jala-chan herself and she brought goodies! In this case, she's paying off a vow to spread the word of Hitman issue 34, a famed emotional exchange between Superman and a fan (who happens to be an assassin). Find Jala-chan at her place!

Case has raved about the 90s anthology "Superheroes" a lot on this show and it's finally time to talk about one of the most memorable. In this case, Case got to even chat with the author! Case and Jmike are joined by Keith Lehtinen for a conversation about Reflected Glory with an interview with comics legend, Paul Kupperberg!

We're going BACK to the FUTURE! Jim Fetters joins Jmike and Case for a look at Alan Davis and Mark Farmer's 30th Century followup to JLA: The Nail, Superboy's Legion!

Back in the day, Case and Jmike teamed up with a bunch of other podcasters to do a 4 part review of Zack Snyder's Justice League.  Collected here is all 4 parts!

We're back with another Pop Quiz as Jmike tries to pick Case's brain for one last pre-Baby Brain time!

Let's wrap up our discussion of the Death of Superman with a look back on the classic "Imaginary Story" that asked how the writer who co-created Superman would have killed the Man of Steel. Case and Jmike are joined by comics historian Alan Kistler for a conversation about the Silver Age tale.

Back in the day (we won't say how far back), Case was a playwright with a fledgling theater company called JustASK Productions and he would write plays about nerd stuff. Here's a monologue he did about the death of Superman, as read by Geoff Moonen, with a discussion about the New York Theatre Scene of the Aughts. BONUS: Stay tuned for the WORST DRESS REHEARSAL STORY EVER! You might think you have a worse one, but you are wrong.

We're doing a CROSSOVER with “‘Fun' and Games with Matt and Geoff” because we're talking about the 16-bit Death and Return of Superman beat ‘em up, baby!

Superman is dead! Yet four beings claiming to be Superman have risen to take his place! JD Martin is back to talk with Case and Jmike about the 2019 animated adaptation to the classic tale!

Each of the pretenders left an impression, but none could truly live up to the real deal. Zach Herring joins us again to conclude the comic storyline of Superman's journey back to the land of the living.

Superman defined the modern superhero, but his death and subsequent impersonation by 4 pretenders opened the doors for him to be reassessed through a lens of a redefined modernity. Zach Herring returns to discuss the uncertain time of the Reign of the Supermen!

It's easy to focus on big stories like the final stand of a great hero, but it's also important to tell the tale of those that are left behind to pick up the pieces! From the "We Have Issues" podcast (not to mention our new sibling show, "Jukebox Vertigo"!), we are joined by Keith Lehtinen to discuss the "Funeral For A Friend" arc that followed the "Death of Superman"!

There have been many attempts to bring the infamous battle between Superman and Doomsday to other formats, but the 2018 animated adaptation is the one to finally nail it! Duke joins us for a conversation about this brutal rendition.

For half of a century, Superman was an implacable force for good who overcame every foe, but his confrontation with the force of destruction known as Doomsday ended with mutual destruction. From The Inks and Issues podcast, Kieran Bennett joins Case and Jmike for a look back on the battle that tempered the Man of Steel!

What happens when the powerful decide to stop upholding the status quo and try to make the world a better place? Nic Woolfe joins Case and Jmike for the 1985 epic featuring Marvel's answer to the Justice League by Mark Gruenwald!

Before he was Squirrel Girl's physics professor, Ben Tippett hypothesized an explanation for Superman's powers and Case and Jmike want to to talk about it with him! Ben Tippett is on to talk about his paper and he has past guest and host of the “Science… Sort of… podcast”, Ryan Haupt, with him to translate!

Who is the ancient champion who wields the Power of Shazam? Case and Jmike are joined by Hans Martin Jr. and Steven Angulo to discuss the history of Black Adam. Check out next week's episode of The Real Movie Critic Vs. The CineGuy, where Case and Jmike join Hans and Steven to review the new film, Black Adam.

No conversation about All Star Superman would be complete without the two guests who are tied for most number of appearances on this show! So, to round out the 100th episode spectacular, Case and Jmike are joined by Duke and JD Martin to talk about The Animated Adaptation of All Star Superman!

It's the 100th episode, baby! So we're covering All Star Superman, widely considered one of the best Superman stories of all time. Well, we want to do it right, so, for the second part of our three part retrospective, we're joined by June Munford and Alan Kistler for an in depth look at the back half of the series.

It's hard to believe that the podcast has been going for four years and we're only now getting to All Star Superman, widely considered one of the best Superman stories of all time. Well, we want to do it right, so for the first part we're joined by June Munford and Alan Kistler for an in depth look at the first six issues.

We're joined by Ryan Luis Rodriguez to talk about DC's first attempt at adapting the Death of Superman into an animated feature, Superman: Doomsday.

Superman has been a cultural icon for almost as long as recorded music has been a thing, so it makes sense that lots of songs have been inspired by the Man of Steel! Matt Storm joins us again to talk about music inspired by Superman!