Podcast appearances and mentions of mark now

Remember, we welcome comments, questions, and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com ----more---- Mark: Welcome back to The Wonder, Science-Based Paganism. I'm your host, Mark. Yucca: And I'm Yucca. Mark: And today we are talking about golden ages of the past and as well as turning to look at golden visions of the future. Yucca: Yeah. I think this is going to be a fun one. We were saying right before we hit record, it's it's a right for tangents as well. Mark: yes, yeah, I imagine we're gonna, we're gonna fall down some rabbit holes on this for sure. Where this originally came from was a conversation that we had in one of the atheopagan community Zoom mixers that happens on Thursday nights, and, or and Michael, who is a member of the Atheopagan Society Council, raised this as a topic and he pasted into the chat a sort of semi facetious myth That many in the mainstream pagan community seem to embrace, which is this idea that once upon a time way back before before the Bronze Age, sometime in the late Either the Copper Age or the Late Stone Age, that there were people living in Asia Minor and in Europe who lived peacefully and in an egalitarian society where that were not characterized by patriarchy and where things were very groovy. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: That patriarchy came along with these bronze sword wielding invaders and the result was militarism and class stratification and eventually the snowball that led us to capitalism and to where we are today.  Yucca: Very familiar with the story and the narrative. It pops up in a lot of different forms. Mark: It certainly does. And it's a compelling narrative, right? Because part of what it tells us is it's not inherent in humans to be the way we are now, Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: you know, that having a male dominated society is not just a human thing, that it's A cultural thing that took over Yucca: Mm Mark: from something that preceded it. And so it's understandable why that's appealing, because it offers hope, right? It says, well, we could get out from what we're in now. We could move in another direction. So, there's a lot of this backward looking, kind of nostalgic glow in these sort of root myths that inform much of modern paganism. Would you agree with that? Yucca: I think so. And I think that there's also the more recent ideas of the unbroken line of Grandmothers practicing this witchy tradition that was secret, but it survived through, you know, all of the Christian takeover and, and all of this and that, that connects in a little bit with an idea that we have that something that's old is automatically good. Or, automatically has more authority because it's an older idea. Mark: Right, that it's valid, because it's persistent, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: right, because it's lasted for a long time, it must have some kind of validity. Yeah, that's a really good point, and it's definitely something that crops up a lot in arguments about religion generally, not just about paganism or witchcraft. Yucca: Right. Mark: Of course, that was Gerald Gardner's story. Right, Gerald Gardner, the creator of Wicca although he claimed that he wasn't the creator of Wicca, he claimed that he was initiated into a lineage of, an unbroken lineage extending back into the mists of time of this tradition of witchcraft. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: maybe he believed that, maybe he didn't, but it's been pretty well established that it's not true. Yucca: Right. Mark: there's a, there's a book by the, the, pagan and witchcraft scholar Ronald Hutton, called The Triumph of the Moon, which very thoroughly and meticulously goes over all the different threads of this and establishes there's not really much there there. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: Great book, great book, highly recommend it. So, so that's another of these, you know, these stories about antiquity. Holding a different way of being that we, that we need to grab onto and try to work our way back to, right? Yucca: Right. Mark: And I was thinking about the Norse traditions, the, the heathen traditions as well. And in that case, what seems to be lionized most is Vikings, right? There's just a whole lot about Vikings. Yucca: Mm hmm. Which I get! Very, very, like, appealing visuals, and Feelings and aesthetics, and yeah, Mark: adventurous, and there's all these sort of macho, warlike values of honor and courage and strength and duty and all that kind of stuff that are all, you know, I mean, they're very macho, but they're, but they're, they're good Yucca: I get the appeal. Yeah, Mark: Yeah, I totally do, too, Yucca: I think that those are, that those can be, can be really good values, right? I don't think we should throw the baby out with bathwater with that, but you know, there's potential with anything for abuse, but you know, those are some pretty, those have their place, Mark: Yeah, yeah. But once again, it's rose colored glasses, right? It ignores the fact that people who went Viking, which was a verb, not a noun you know, you went Viking they were farmers most of the year. I mean, they were just working the soil like everybody else and, you know, getting food. And, you know, they were farmers and they were traders and, you know, all that good kind of stuff. Which is, you know, a much less heroic kind of myth than, you know, paddling an open boat across the North Sea to, you know, to, to strike into foreign lands and, you know, take stuff. And I can understand why that part of the story doesn't really get included so much but here we are, we're on a tangent, right? But still, it's about golden pasts. Yucca: Right. Mark: So, Michael's host, Michael's, you know, quote that he put in the chat was very thought provoking because as we learn more, it becomes pretty clear that none of these golden era of the past myths is likely to be very true. There are kernels of truth Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: them. I mean, have, have there been women that were herbalists and knew natural cures for things in an unbroken line since the time of Arwen? Antiquity? Certainly. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Yeah, of course there have. Now, were they practicing a particular kind of religious framework around that? Probably not.  Yucca: Probably changed with the time as the society around them changed, and their view of the world changed, and, right? Yeah. Mark: I mean, you know, it's like, did it make that much of a difference whether you invoked some goddess when you tied on a poultice or whether you invoked some saint? It, you know, it may, it may have been exactly the same thing. So, There's all this past stuff and that, that led to a very thought provoking conversation about kind of the nature of nostalgia Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: and this, this very human quality that we have of looking back on times in the past and seeing them fondly, even if they were terrible. Yucca: Right. Even if we lived through them, or, but especially the ones that we didn't. I saw a short video recently of she looked like You know, maybe 16, 17 year old talking about how she was born in the wrong era, that she should have been from the 80s, right? And I remember, you know, being a teenager and, and the kids around me going like, Oh, we should have been hippies. We were meant to be hippies from the 60s. And it's, I think people just do that. Yeah. Even if it's, of course, in the 90s, the 60s seemed like forever ago. Right. Mark: Yeah it's, it's very funny. I, I mean, I was born in the early 60s, so I have, and my father was in a PhD program on the UCLA campus, so I have Other than memories of events, which I have pretty vividly, like the assassinations and Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: body counts announced on Tuesdays and Thursdays on the news, and, you know, the riots and, you know, a lot of stuff like that, but I remember going to my father's lab And all of the students that were around him, and they were all hippies, they were all, they were all dressed in that particular way because they were college students in the late 19, in the, you know, mid to late 1960s. And there, there is, a flavor of that era that I can remember and that feels, I don't necessarily feel drawn to it, but I feel almost like it's something lost that I wish I could recapture somehow. the same thing is true of the 70s and the 80s. It gets muddy towards the 90s and later than that, and I'm not sure whether that's because we tend to have more nostalgia for times when we're younger, or whether It's because the internet came along and culture got a lot blurrier. Suddenly, I mean, it used to be like, you can recognize music from the 70s and 80s. By the 90s, I mean, there was a swing music movement, and there was all, there was the world music movement, and there was all this, you know, sort of backward looking. Yucca: I, I'm not sure I agree with that, because I think if I hear a 90s pop song on the radio, it instantly is, I can instantly place 90s or 2000s so that I would, I would guess that it is more of a 90s pop song. the age and how old we were when we were engaging with that, rather than becoming less distinctive. Mark: That may very well be the case. I may simply have not been paying as much attention. Yucca: right. Mark: You Yucca: Well, and just being in a, Mark: career by that point. Yucca: yeah, different life stage, and at least my memory of the way time has worked is, it just keeps speeding up. Right? When I was four, that a year was an eternity. A week was so long, and now I'm like, oh yeah, a year, like, you know, and I'm told it keeps getting worse. It just keeps going faster and faster. Mark: does, and I'm not sure whether it's a function of A year being a smaller and smaller proportion of your overall life and memory, or whether it's that we get into routines that cause months to fly by at a time. I'm really not sure what that's about, but it's a little frightening how quickly the years just start to go. And that's one of the reasons why, yeah, probably so, but that's one of the reasons why I feel it's really important to have a ritual practice to create sort of sublime moments. Either by myself or with other people, of shared observation and celebration of life. So that those, those moments stick out. I don't look at the last year and see nothing but just going to work and doing the tasks and stuff. There are special days that, that I remember. Yucca: I think novelty slows us down a little bit, and makes us pay a little more attention. Mark: Yeah, yeah. That's why traveling is so wonderful, right? Yucca: mm hmm. Mark: everything is new. You're in a place that's unfamiliar. And you point yourself towards experiences that are going to be novel, like experiencing museums and cultural events and architecture and art and, you know, being, being in cafes and hearing foreign language around you and, you know, all the various things. And so we tend to have much more detailed memory of times when we travel than we do when we're at home.  So, it seems kind of natural that these sorts of narratives would, would appeal to people. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: And I think that they may have been part of the appeal of paganism for some people. I mean, some people get into it for a vision of a better world. Some people get into it for a desire for magical power. Some people get into it for a desire for connection with and reverence of the natural world, like us. And I think all of those are compelling reasons why people are attracted to modern paganism. And I'm Yucca: combination of those things, too. Mark: absolutely, for Yucca: Yeah. Mark: for sure. Yucca: I think, also, being There's also, for some people, an attraction to being different, right, wanting something that is a little counter cultural, regardless of what the specific values are, but just something different, because whatever it was that they were doing, was not working. And so they're looking for anything that is different than whatever that was. Mark: Yes, and, and paganism specifically works very well for those folks because they tend to be folks that don't fit in very well. And paganism is very, inclusive, by and large. It's very accommodating to people who may be neurodivergent or may be strange or may just be very unique people, right? And what I saw when I first came into paganism was that there was this celebration of the uniqueness of individuals, which is something that I have worked to carry forward in my own pagan work because I think Everybody's amazing, and they all need the opportunity to show their amazingness and to have that affirmed and lifted up. Yucca: Yeah. Well, that's a good lead in to, to thinking about the now, and I guess the golden future, right? We're talking about the golden past. So, what about our visions for the future? Mark: Yeah and, and I should say that I do think that a lot of these golden past narratives, whatever their factuality, I think they're a distraction. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: if they were true, I don't think that matters very much. Because we're not then, and we're never going back then. We're only going to be here, and we're going to go forward into the future. Time doesn't work in a backwards manner, it only goes forward. So, my focus, oh go ahead, Yucca: I, I do think though that there is some value in examining those for looking at what do we value and what do we want to bring forward. So, do we, if we're thinking about, so yes, recognizing that it's probably pretty much a myth about our, our pre Bronze Age egalitarian societies in which, War was not a thing, and there weren't skirmishes and conflict between groups. But seeing that there is a recognizing our longing for that, I think is valuable. I think it's important to, to also recognize that that may not be factual, but that there is value in that. Mmhmm. Mark: certainly, of that we would like to have a world in which there was peace, in which there was inclusiveness, in which there was a better human relationship with the natural world. Yucca: Right. Mark: And, Yucca: hmm. Mm Mark: and one of the things about those myths is that they tell us that it's possible because it happened in the past. Yucca: hmm. Mark: I just choose to believe that it's possible because I think it's, it has to be possible. Yucca: Because we can choose to make it that way. Mm Mark: Yes. And we have chosen as humans to go far afield of that. Even, even in some of the ways that we have really excelled and succeeded as humans, like through science. You know, the newest science is generally applied first to creating weapons. Yucca: hmm. Mark: It's usually applied for figuring out ways to kill people. And that is a very, very sad commentary on the divorce between values and reason. That we have become very effective at applying our reason In problem solving and to understand the nature of the universe, but the concept of ethical constraints around that is, it's very tenuous. I mean, there is a field of scientific ethics, but I haven't seen much example of that actually applying except in the experimental sense. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: It's like, you know, no, we're sorry, you, you can't test this weird dangerous thing on live people, Yucca: Right. Yeah, we've got our review boards that we've got to get past to be able to do human or vertebrate subjects, but that's where it pretty much ends. Mark: yeah  Yucca: you want to do anything with an invertebrate or anything that isn't an animal, and it's, you know, there's, there's no red tape. Mark: yeah. Yeah. So, you know, re rethinking these things in a really deep sense is important. It's really important. And immediately that makes you subject to some accusations of being very unrealistic because you're, you're thinking far beyond the bounds of what the currently constructed society can do. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mm Mark: And and of course also being accused of being radical, right? Because To make those changes would be a radical shift in the way humanity works. Don't think either of those accusations is very persuasive, myself. Yucca: hmm. Mark: I think people are so adaptable, and we have so many examples of cultures that have not been colonized by, or have only been partially colonized by, the Western mindset that has taken over virtually everything. in the world that operate differently, that I believe we do have choices about the way that we go forward. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mm Mark: And it starts with values. It starts with making decisions about what we consider to be sacred and what we consider to be worthy. And where we draw ethical lines around not doing things that we can do, but we really shouldn't. Yucca: hmm. Yeah, agreed. Mark: Because there's an awful lot of stuff that we do that we really just shouldn't do. Yucca: Yeah. Can and should. Those are two different things. Yeah. Mark: And there is a terrible tendency, and I mean, we see this in children. Given the opportunity to make something go boom, Yucca: Oh, not just children. Mark: Yeah, I know, everybody likes to make something go boom. It's it can be really fun. But when the implications are, you know, environmental devastation and, and loss of lives we really need to resist that urge to make things go boom. Yucca: Yeah, we need to maybe get that out of our systems when it's, you know, little pop cans with and vinegar and baking soda and things like that and not do it with, you know, People and buildings and mountains. Mark: And cities, and yeah, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So that's what I think. I think that this vision of the future starts with ideas that are around values, rather than structures. But in order to get those values really to propagate in a mass sense, it is going to take some major structural overhaul of the way humanity operates. And fundamental to that is we have to find an alternative to capitalism that works better for the planet. I think one thing that would help a lot, Would be if there were something, and I am, I'm just sort of spinning and talking while I'm thinking here, so maybe I'll end up in something really stupid, but I think international shipping is a big problem. For one thing, it causes a tremendous amount of of carbon into the atmosphere, just astronomical amounts of pollution. Yucca: Right. And so many other things. I mean, our, I think that decentralizing a lot of that would be really, really helpful. Mark: I agree. Yucca: you know, just the supply chain things that have happened over the last few years is just the tip of the iceberg with that. But if we could, return a lot of our means for survival to be in our own hands, in a more local setting, I think that that would be incredibly powerful because on so many different levels, one, just the practical, if something happens, then so many people are without a paddle, right? But also, it's really easy to control people when you control their ability to survive. you Other means to survive, right? Yeah. Mark: the exploitation of cheap labor facilitated by international shipping because producers can go shopping for the most destitute people they can find, pay them as little as they possibly can in order to produce consumer goods that then get shipped back to rich countries where people pay for them. And I mean, That's, that's not just a horror story, that is the standard operating procedure of manufacturing in the world. That's, that's, that's the way it is. Yucca: That's the origins of most of the objects around you right now. For most people, I don't know, some of you might be actually out you know, sitting in a tree with just your phone and some earbuds in. If so, that sounds awesome. But I'm guessing most people listening right now are probably in a constructed environment. In your car, in your house, you know, in a bus, something like that. Mark: Yeah, yeah. Yucca: So Mark: And there's nothing wrong with that, and I want to be very clear, I'm not shaming people Yucca: we're in the same boat, Mark: Yeah, I mean, we all have to live, you know, we're talking on computers here I've got headphones on that I am absolutely certain were made in China by someone who was not paid nearly enough for the service of having created this product. Myself, as, you know, similarly a wage slave in capitalism If that person was actually paid a reasonable wage, I might not have been able to afford these headphones, right? So the whole system reinforces itself, and no one is innocent, and no one other than the decision makers on this are really guilty. Yucca: Mm hmm. I'm Mark: You know, we, we all, we're all doing the best we can, given the system that we have, but that system needs to shift, unless we just decide we're gonna eat up the world and go extinct. Yucca: not so fond of that, Mark: I'm not either, I, that's just, you know, as, as golden futures go, that's really not one for me. Yucca: this is a topic that we did do several years back at this point. We did talk about misanthropy and I do see a a strong tendency of that in our culture today. Which is, I find, very saddening. But I, other than I don't agree with that from a value perspective it's very, it's very counterproductive. It really doesn't help us solve any of these problems, to be really down on, well, we should go extinct, it would be better for the, for everybody, or for the rest of the world, or, you know, all of that. It just, I don't think that, I don't buy that. I think it's not a very strong argument. It's kind of a, it's a cop out. Mark: Yeah, I was gonna say I agree with you, I, I don't have much truck with that either, and I think it's intellectually lazy. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: I think it's just, oh, there's a huge complicated problem, I don't want to think about it, maybe let's just go extinct. and, and it's a very uncompassionate, non empathetic way of looking at humanity and at, you know, The crises that we confront and I hope to do better than that and I think that we collectively can do better. Yucca: I think so. And I think it relates to our ability to choose what we are going to focus and pay attention to. And I think that's some of what we were talking about before about the nostalgia. When we're in that, we're focusing on just specific aspects of the past. Right? That nostalgia for the 60s in the hippie era. Well, there was a lot of things that really sucked about that, right? But when we're longing for it, we're not longing for the war and the turmoil and all of that. We're longing for the parts that were really positive about it. And so we, we have the ability to really shape the way That we behave in the world based on what we focus on. Not that we shouldn't pay attention to that, we certainly should pay attention to the negative things, but do we focus on solutions to those things? Or do we focus on the misery of how bad it sucks to be human? Yeah, enduring those things. Mark: Right. Right. Yeah, that's exactly right. And one of the things that I find increasingly frustrating is, is that tendency to simply say, well, we're screwed. And so let's stop trying. Yucca: hmm. Mark: Now, trying is going to involve some dislocation because capitalism gives us lots of goodies. It's totally unsustainable, but it gives us goodies that if we were to move into a sustainable modality, we probably wouldn't have nearly as many of. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: But the odds are good that we would actually be significantly happier because Instead of filling our desire for happiness and for satisfactions with the purchase of things, we would have stuff like culture and community and relationships and, and, and celebration like Pagan celebrations around the year, that kind of stuff. Spirituality art. All of those things that really are shunted to the side by the capitalistic frame, which is that all of those things, because they can't be monetized very well, aren't very important. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And so the challenge is moving out of that structure in a way that doesn't cause harm as we do it. Mark: Or the, the, the so called soft landing. You know, there are so many indicators that point towards some kind of collapse or crash coming not very long from now between climate change and and various economic indicators and so forth. You know, it is likely that there is going to be some real privation in our future, but Yucca: And there is. There is. Mark: he will, and there already Yucca: future. I think that there's a lot of places that we can point to in this moment and go, right here, here, here, here. Mark: Right, yeah, I mean, any Appalachian town that had the top of its mountains shaved off by a coal mining company, and then, which then marched off to, you know, do its next project in Brazil and left all those people with no work in a destroyed environment, I mean, that's a microcosm right there of exactly what capitalism does. And we need to have a more For want of a better word, holistic understanding about economic development. Economic development needs to be something that benefits people in the ways that most matter, and it is sustainable over time, rather than this endless boom bust thing that we see so often through capitalism. Yucca: Well, I think remembering the root of that word is helpful in this. The echo is home. That's what the word means, is home. So it remembering that everything that we're doing, we are doing, To our home, Mark: Mm hmm. Yucca: so, Mark: Mm hmm. Yucca: which we are part of, Mark: Right. Yucca: right? A home isn't just a house. A home is the people and the culture in that house. Right. It's all of the structures that the people depend on, that they're part of. Mark: And a part of the way that we can start pointing in this direction, I think, is through media. Because people need You know, we're so disconnected now. I mean, let me speak for myself and what I see around me in American society, right? People are very disconnected. They're often disconnected from their own families. Because of the nature of the job market under capitalism, families are atomized to the far corners of the world. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: As people seek jobs and go and work it becomes very hard for people to build communities because they're moving around looking for economic opportunities. Yucca: Right. Mark: And they're working themselves to death so they don't have a lot of time to build community and relationships and culture and all that kind of stuff. So I do feel that getting some of those warm, fuzzy, kind, empathetic values out into media is a way to kind of start the process. Mean, I can think of a couple of examples that just sort of reminded me of. Oh yeah, people can be kind to one another, people can, people can love one another, people can accept one another for who they are. And one of them is the Australian slash adults animated series, Bluey. Yucca: Absolutely. Mark: Yeah, I mean, as a mom, you, you know about Bluey, Yucca: Oh, I absolutely do. The parents in our household will be watching it, and the kids have left the room. It's a great, yeah, it really hits home. Very sweet. Mark: It's very kind and very thoughtful, and It's the kind of thing that, that moves the sorts of emotions that I think we need to be fostering more. You know, there's so much stuff out there that's all sort of, you know, post apocalyptic, war like, you know, blockbuster drama, and superhero vigilantes, and all that kind of stuff, and I just think people need to be reminded of how good it feels to be kind. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: the other one that I was thinking of is sensate. Did you ever see sensate? Yucca: No, I'm not familiar with this one. Mark: It's the word sense and then the, the letter, the, the numeral eight. Yucca: Okay. Mark: And you have to trust it because you won't understand what's going on until about three episodes into the series. It has Daryl Hannah in it and a bunch of people that I didn't know. But it's beautifully done. It's super queer, so it's very inclusive in that kind of way. And wonderful. It's done by the By Lana and the people who did The Matrix, Warszawski's, I, I, it's a, it's a long, seemingly Polish or Czech name that I, that I believe begins with a W. And both of those sisters are trans. When they made The Matrix they hadn't transitioned yet. So, interesting storytelling, interesting world perspective, just really worth checking out. Yucca: hmm. I've written that one down. I'm guessing that's not something you can watch with a five year old in the room. Mark: Probably not, no, there's, there's some sex in there, and, Yucca: wait for after bed. Mark: yeah and when they announced that it was cancelled, there was such an outpouring of, of rage that they made a movie to wrap it up, so that, there, the, I think it's two seasons and then the movie. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: It's either two or three seasons and then the movie, but anyway, yeah, worth, worth checking out because once again, it's like, oh, cool, interesting, unusual people being happy with each other. This is great. And, and it's a, it's a dramatic story. It's got tension. It's got conflict. It's got, you know, intrigue and all that good kind of stuff. It's not just people standing around being happy with one another, which unfortunately is not entertaining. Yucca: Yes. Although I wish that there maybe was some of that out there. Because sometimes that's what I, that's what I need to watch, Mark: yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. It's yeah, it's a funny thing. It's like, media can be like a companion in some ways, but what it reflects back to us can be really impactful on our worldview and on our feelings. And so getting, you know, getting a lot of the cruelty and, coldness out of what we consume. And building a market for that more kind, inclusive, warm human kind of way of being, I think is one of the things that we can do to start to shift things in the world. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: And then of course there's activism. I mean, you need to, you need to just advocate that people not be exploited. That the planet not be exploited. And, Yucca: And of course, our, our everyday, just the way that we move through the world, right, working on ourselves about the kindness that we bring to the world, or don't bring to the world with us, Mark: Yes, yes. And that's particularly hard right now, actually, with the cultural divide in the United States, at least, where the rhetoric is so vitriolic. And Yucca: both sides, Mark: both sides, it really is. Yucca: demonization that happens, it's hard to breathe sometimes with Mark: It is. Well, and, you know, a lot of that is inspired by leader figures. I mean, there's, there's a lot that can be laid at the feet of Donald Trump simply for how abusive he's willing to be to other people. And people see that and say, Oh, well, then I can do that too. Yucca: right? Mark: It's, it's just Yucca: And I don't think it's a conscious process, for the most part. I don't think people actually say those words in their mind, to themselves, but that that is the takeaway, again, across the board, right? Not pointing to one aisle or the other, that that's, you That's a, it's something that's grown, at least my awareness of it has grown in the last few years. I think that it's something that's not just my awareness, I think that's a trend that has really really spread. Mark: Yes  Yucca: and I think some of that is enabled by the systems that we have. Especially with format that social media has right now. And I think social media can, can take different forms, but the form that it has right now is very, is about creating the us versus them mentality, because that's what gets the clicks and that's what gets the advertising dollars. Mark: Yes. Yes, and to be honest, if it were not for the fact that the atheopagan community spaces are online social media spaces, mostly. I wouldn't be on them at all. I, I know that Facebook does bad things to me. I, I can tell that Facebook is doing bad things to me, and I can tell by the way the algorithm curates my feed that it's trying to rile me up, it's trying to get me mad. I get this endless stream of, like, right wing Christian stuff. Yucca: Well, because you look at it. Mark: Well, even if I don't interact with it, it's Yucca: but it sees how long you are, even if you don't click on it, it sees how long you stay over that page. So the, if you just keep scrolling past it, don't look at it at all, it won't give it to you as much. But it sees that you linger for that half a second on it, and then it'll give you more the next time, because it worked. Right? And that, that is a content that, it doesn't actually look at what the content is, it looks at whether you engage with the content or not. Mark: This is why I love groups, because there are no ads in groups. Yucca: You can just go right in. Yeah. Mark: in and you see the posts that people have made in the groups, and that's it. The, the curated feed is something that I try to avoid as much as possible. And, I mean, I used to use Twitter for rapid news, but now that's turned into a cesspool. I'm not, not gonna Yucca: Oh, I would say that it always has been. It's had some rough times recently, but it's It's definitely a model for all of that. Yeah. And of course, I mean, it's, each of the platforms have their, their issues. But, well, this has actually been a huge tangent. We we left the golden golden age topic half an hour ago, right? Mark: Well, what would that golden age look like? To me, the balancing act there, the place where I won't go is the so called dark green resistance. direction. There's a book called Dark Green Resistance and it's, it's very problematic in a number of ways, one of which is that it's extremely ableist. It basically declares that industrialization is, and, and the products of industrialization are things that we're going to have to give up in order to get into sustainability. And so basically everybody who's disabled and needs that support or needs, you know, prescriptions or whatever that is, they Yucca: So the, the folks who rely on insulin or other things like that, too bad. Mark: They can just, too bad. They're, they're, they're washed out. And so I find that very offensive and, and unproductive. I think, and unrealistic, to be honest, because the fact is that people, Yucca: We're not going to do that, Mark: no. People do, they, you know, these are family members, they're people that we love. We're not going to do that, and we're not going to let it be done to ourselves, either. Yucca: Yeah, Mark: So Me Yucca: I, I really dislike the framing of the nature versus humanity, Mark: too. Yucca: right? That's just so unproductive because we are, we're part of, we're part of all of it and we have to take care of us to be able to take care of the whole system. Because, Mark: And, and I have another tangent, which is that our, that that conceptualization of the separation between nature and humanity actually informs some of the early environmental laws that we have in this country, like the Wilderness Act that was approved in 1964. Which discusses in its preamble the idea of lands untrammeled by man, which, Yucca: except that we've been here for 30, 000 years. Thank you very much.  Mark: In a completely racist way erases the presence of native people here for that entire time. Yucca: who have been actively managing that there isn't any news. Maybe some areas in Antarctica. But other than that, there's, there's no land on Earth that we haven't actively been managing for thousands of years. Mark: That's right. Yucca: That's not, yeah. Mark: Yeah, that's right. And there is still a divide within the environmental community between those who. are apoplectic that the National Park Service might allow these little tiny anchors to be pinned into rock so people can climb, because it's, it's inserting human technology into nature. And people who are much more reasonable, who understand, climbers are some of the best environmentalists there are. They love the outdoors, they love the wild, they love the wildlife, they, they, they donate, they, they volunteer, they vote, they do all the things that we need to do for our environment. And you're gonna, you're gonna tell them to get lost because they because you're upset about a totally invisible thing way up high on a rock face? I just, it's, it's, it ain't right. Yucca: Right. And there's a lot of other examples, you know, we can choose different fields for that. But that's definitely one of the ones that's like, really? That's, that's, that's, that's, That's the, okay, Mark: yeah, that's, that's the hill you're gonna die on. Yucca: what you're going to fight with? Okay. Yeah, because it's, okay, full disclosure, I am a climber, so, but but that's not even like arguing about roads, which you could have the argument of if they're improper, if they're not put in right, then you get erosion and trickle down effects from, like, problems with that. But yeah, Mark: there's a lot to be said for roadless areas. When the roadless area policy was implemented under Bill Clinton, it did some very good things for some large, unsegmented Yucca: absolutely, Mark: of wildlife habitat. Yucca: yeah. So, I see a lot of problems that have been created by roads. As a restoration ecologist, when I go in, that's one of the first things that we see is, oh, I haven't even walked up that way yet, but I know that there's a road that way. Right, so it's, it's something that, I just brought that up as something that I could see why people would be arguing against a road, but why somebody's going to argue against the little piece of metal in the, the rock all the way up there, Mark: makes no sense whatsoever. Yucca: most of the time you don't even know is there unless the person is actively climbing, right? Yeah. Mark: Yeah, exactly so. And, I mean, there, as you say, there are other examples of this as well. I mean, the, the terrible wildfires that ran through the Giant Sequoia National Park. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: killed 20 percent of the giant Sequoia trees. And the reason that that happened was because fire suppression practices for a century had built up fuels such that when fire finally went through there, the temperatures were so high that these giant trees were killed. So the Yucca: catastrophic fires. Yeah. Mark: because there wasn't beneficial fire, which is a natural part of the landscape and has been used by Native people to manage land for thousands of years. But that's what happened. Big catastrophic fire, a lot of the trees died. National Park Service decided, okay, well in order to help offset this, We need to plant some giant sequoias. We, you know, we need to propagate and then plant some giant sequoias. The same gang that I'm talking about, organizations like Wilderness Watch, went ballistic. No. You have to leave it alone. Wilderness is, is just that. You, you must, you can't touch it. You can't do anything to it. It must just be left to do whatever it's going to do, which on rangelands means you're going to end up with a whole bunch of invasive non natives, Yucca: You starve, you starve it. That's how you turn a range into a desert, is by fencing it off, because our grazers are gone, Mark: mm hmm. Yucca: right? And if you fence that off, and we don't have any grazers, it can't, you have just disrupted resource cycling. Right? You can't get nutrients into the soil. You're gonna get, you're gonna kill all your grasses, and yeah, you just end up with invasives. And then, you end up with bare, you end up with dirt. Mark: With bare dirt, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, this is, and I'm sure we can come up with myriad examples of this, but these are a couple of examples that have come up in the course of my work. And it's very frustrating because everybody involved in these conflicts wants to be doing the right thing, but some of them have some very strange criteria for what that is. And, Yucca: Well, and Mark: you know, I go back to, let's go with the science, let's go with what's practical, let's go with, let's, and, and particularly, to my mind, when we are still, especially in the West, having ongoing conflicts over whether nature is to be rendered into marketable resources. or allowed to flourish as nature. Surely we need to do something so that the people that care about that will continue to care about it, right? There's, there's a very human component to all of this.  Yucca: That, those of us who are, embedded into these ecosystems as part of them and rely on them for our survival, that we are, that we're not left out of that, right? Because one of the problems that happens in my state a lot is that there's a real disconnect between the urban and rural, Communities, and the urban communities will have louder voices often, and will make choices for how, what they think is good for the land, forgetting that, like, yeah, but then we have no, like, then we're going to freeze to death this winter. If you, if you say that we can't cut any firewood, we're going to freeze. Like, you can't survive in this climate if you don't heat your homes, and great, you've got propane. You don't have to even think about it because you've got natural gas and propane and all that in your city, but, you know, we still need to cut down a couple of trees each year. Mark: Yeah. Yeah  Yucca: so it's a, it's, it gets very, very complex. Emotions get high with that stuff. Mark: for sure. Yeah, so as I said, this is a big, long tangent, and I knew that it was gonna be, but it's, it's important. It's an important topic, and one that, that conservationists, We struggle with, you know, we struggle with one another about it. We sue on opposite sides of, you know, of these issues. And I don't have any, you know, quick simple answer for that, but it goes to this idea about what is the golden future. If the idea of the golden future is that, Nature is a park with fences around it. That's, you know, with, you know, all the abundant wildlife and sparkling springs and all that kind of stuff. That's not a realistic future vision. not how those things work, Yucca: and then we all live in that Wall City Mark: right? Yucca: But yeah. I think that whatever the future ends up looking like, that critical examination and reflection is, is really, I think that that's, that's key. That we not only be able to look at ourselves, but be able to look at our society and look at what, and examine what is it that we want, and how do we work towards that, instead of just sort of, just hitting the ground running and just going with whatever's happening, right? Mark: and especially what produces quarterly profitable returns. Yucca: Right? Because that, I mean, that doesn't take very much thought to realize some of the problems with that. Yeah, Mark: And there are things that we could do, there are policy things that we could do, that would make a huge difference in this. If, if legally you could not sell a stock for two years after you bought it, the economy would utterly transform. Because suddenly, The health of the, of the operation itself, and then of course you layer on environmental responsibility, social responsibility, governance responsibility, the so called ESG that the right wing is freaking out about if, if you put it that way. Corporate behavior in a frame like that, and make sure that people who invest are actually investing long enough that it, that they actually care about the performance of the company, you will have enterprises that actually succeed instead of simply cranking out something and then, you know, people can dump the stock, Yucca: mm hmm. Mark: and they will behave in a much more responsible fashion. So, there's, there are a lot of things we could do, there are a lot of things we could do. And we're not doing them, yet. Yucca: The fact that they're there is something that I find very hopeful, Mark: Mm hmm. Yucca: right, that there are things that, that's just one solution, right? And if there's one solution, how many others are there, right? So, Mark: Yeah, and far smarter people than me are, are, they're working on this stuff. They're, they're trying to figure out what kind of a, a system we could have. One of the challenges that I have in reading some of that stuff is that it's often very academic and, and Disconnected from the realities of the world because I'm a politics guy, right? I'm a, I'm a, I'm an implementation guy. I, I want to see how does your idea, how does that get traction and move forward in our society? Yucca: mm hmm. Mark: But those are answerable questions in many cases. I think that golden future can happen, and it won't be golden all the time. That's, Yucca: just like everyday life, Mark: yeah, Yucca: right? Yeah, Mark: but we can certainly build a world that is much kinder. Much more inclusive, much more sustainable, and where people are a lot happier than they are under capitalism, because capitalism makes misery. Yucca: For most people. Mark: Except for a very tiny elite. Yucca: Even then, those folks don't look very happy. Mark: They don't. Yucca: They look terrified, and you can see them going crazy. So, it doesn't, it really doesn't, what we've got going on now, and I don't know if maybe there are some elements of capitalism that are things that, there's some positive elements that we could move forward with and other things we don't want to, but what we've got going on isn't working for most people. Mark: That's right. Yucca: So, I think we need to look, to really look at what do we want to move towards instead, and how to build that. And I don't think that we're, personally, I don't like the tearing everything down, because I think a lot of people get hurt in that process. I think it's something that we need to work towards in a, to transform. not to try and destroy and rise out of the ashes because that rarely ever works. There's quite a few countries to take a look at where that, in recent history, where that's been disastrous. That's not how it, you know, people Mark: Usually what it gets you is some kind of strong armed dictator who, It promises people that they'll be safe. Yucca: So, how do we make these changes in a way that supports and nurtures as many people along the way as possible? Mark: That is the problem before us. It is. Yucca: And it's worthwhile. It's I'm grateful that that's something that we get to think about. Mm Mark: you know, I really am too. And we're, we're at a moment in human history where I don't believe it's too late, but we're definitely talking about the big picture now. we're going to make decisions that are going to impact the big picture in a significant way. And it's kind of meaningful to be alive at this time and to have a role in advocating for the kinds of values and, and ethics and behavior that we want to see. Yucca: Yeah, and getting to, to choose that, right? Mm hmm. I Mark: I mean, there are a lot of people that don't have a lot of choice about the circumstances of their lives and they aren't good circumstances, but they don't have a lot of choice about that. And they just have to keep repeating the same thing over and over and over in order to barely eke out an existence. It's a privilege to be able to work at a different level than that where you can hopefully have some traction on the future. So you were right. We had a lot of tangents. Yucca: was gonna say, I loved it. This is great. Lots to think about. So, thanks for a great discussion, Mark, Mark: Yeah, thank you. Really enjoyed it. Let us know what you think, folks. The Wonder Podcast, queues at gmail. com. That's The Wonder Podcast, all one word, and then the letter Q and the letter S. Yucca: and we'll see you next week.   

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com Suntree Retreat 2024: https://theapsocietyorg.wordpress.com/news-and-events/suntree-retreat-2024/ Season 5 - Episode 5 ----more----   Mark: Welcome back to The Wonder, science based paganism. I'm your host, Mark. Yucca: And I'm Yucca. Mark: And today we're going to visit the four core ritual skills. Now, obviously, there are a lot of different things that can be useful in leading rituals and in in participating in them, but these are four clusters of activity. That if you're good at them, you're going to have a lot more success both in leading rituals and in submerging yourself into the ritual trance y state, the flow state where you can really have effective things happen in rituals. Yucca: Great. Mark: that's what we're gonna do today. Yucca: And this is more from the lens of a group ritual than necessarily a private ritual because there's a few things we'll be talking about, like the speech part, which maybe you might do in a private ritual or maybe you don't. But when you're, when you have that interaction between multiple people and what we're going to be talking about, you can apply a lot of that to your private rituals as well, to your solo or individual. Mark: Sure. I know people who are who are pagans and whose solo practice involves a lot of dance, for Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: because they're very movement oriented people and that's, that's what they do even, you know, in the privacy of their solo rituals. Yucca: Right. Mark: so yes and, and beyond that, these are good skills just to have in the world, you know, it's, it's helpful to have these. So why don't we start with public speaking, Yucca: Yeah. So, especially when you are leading the ritual, the words are how we communicate with each other and communicate these really complex ideas. We're gonna communicate other things through our body language, through movement, but when we're trying to communicate nuanced ideas, it's words. Mark: right? And this is the, the whole cluster of things that go into verbal communication, right? So it's not only speaking in coherent sentences and, you know, having an interesting modulation to your voice so that you're not speaking in a monotone. It's engaging. People are, you know, want to listen to it, but also the physical ability just to project your voice out, right? So that people that are in that space can hear what you're saying. All of those things are, are, they're learned skills. All of our speaking abilities are learned skills. I mean, we watch little kids slowly accumulate the ability to communicate about complex Yucca: Right? We start with a half a dozen sounds. Words that are instinctual, that are, I'm hungry, I'm in pain, and that's it. Everything else that, how many thousands of words do we know in each language, right? Each language's vocabulary amazing, Mark: Yeah. Yeah. And clearly, evolution has strongly favored our capacity to do this because a whole lot of brain space is taken up by our capacities to learn language and to speak. And then, of course, the whole separate factor of being able to read and write, which is a different set of skills, right? And a set of skills that we're not really talking about so much today. Yucca: right, Mark: Now, not everybody is a natural. Public speaker. I feel very fortunate that I happen to be gifted in that regard and that I can just sort of improvisationally talk about things that interest me not so much about things that don't interest me, but that's an ADHD thing, I think, Yucca: mhm. And I'm the opposite. Speaking is very difficult. I didn't speak till I was four. This is all learned and hard earned hard, it was difficult to learn to do, and I'm not comfortable with public speaking, despite doing it for a living but it's, if I was to be leading a ritual, it would be something that I would do. be practicing ahead of time. And that's just different ways of being, right? You just kind of need to know yourself that, Mark, it seems like you could just kind of go into it, you know, have a little bit of an idea and be able to know what to say in the moment. I'd have to think about that ahead of time. Mark: yeah, often I can just go into it with kind of a mental outline. If I'm giving a long address, like an hour long, Something. I'll work from a, an outline, but that's usually only a page. So it's just, I don't know, it's, it's something that, that I have an aptitude for and I feel really fortunate for that. And I also don't take any credit for it because it's just a genetic die roll. I happened to, to land that. The, so there are a variety of different techniques that you can use in order to improve your ability. To, to do public speaking, it's, it's very, very difficult for people to remain interested in watching someone read something aloud. Yucca: Right. Mark: That's very challenging. So if you can speak from an outline, like on an index card, that can be A much better way to go, but if you need to, like, write out the first sentence of every paragraph or something to kind of give yourself a launching point to go from there are just some practical things you can do that will make it easier for you to do that in a ritual context. Use a binder, for example. It looks a little more formal, and you don't have to worry about pages shuffling all over the place. You can hold the binder, you know, like people do when they're singing in a choir or something like that, and just refer down to it, and then look up to make eye contact with people in the group so that they feel engaged. That eye contact piece is very important. Yucca: Yeah. And the, and it's a practice thing as well, but the length of eye contact is going to depend on how many people you have in your group. But often Your one to three seconds is kind of that sweet spot where it's, you're acknowledging the person, but not, it doesn't become uncomfortable. You're not, Mark: Right. Yucca: having it feel like they're being examined or peered into. It's There's just that moment of connection. Now, if you've got a group of 20 people, you don't have time to make three second eye contact with every single person there. But if you have a group of four people, then that's a, you know, you just gotta have to judge it in the moment. Mark: Right. In the, in the case of that group of 20 people, you can pick individuals out of the group that you make that eye contact with and then maybe use a different set the next time you look up so that eventually everybody feels kind of included. And the, the trick with eye contact, which I know is very uncomfortable for some people, is that you can look somebody right between the eyes, straight between their eyebrows, and you're not making eye contact with them, and they won't know it. Yucca: And it's, yeah, it still feels like it. Rather than focusing on, you know, when you're making true eye contact, you're really looking at one of the pupils, right? But you don't actually need to do that, yeah. Mark: Just, just that little bit of difference at any kind of distance at all, they're not going to know. In many cases in ritual settings, we're working under low light conditions, so that makes it even a little bit fuzzier. And that's a way that you can keep yourself from becoming as self conscious as you might be by looking someone straight in the eyes. Yucca: Right, because if you are, now this is if you're leading it, you are keeping track of a lot of things. in your mind at that moment. But for the eye contact, being a participant in a ritual, there's the eye contact with the person who is leading it and with the others, and that's just a nice, that's a nice trick to have, just a nice tool, not trick in like a manipulative way, but just a nice tool for your social toolbox. Mark: Sure. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's a way to self, save yourself from a feeling of, that you're too exposed. Because that's the thing about eye contact is that it feels very exposing to both of, both people who are, who are meeting their gaze. And so if you fudge a little bit, it, it can make you feel a little bit less exposed and more confident. Yucca: right. Mark: Now I, I, oh, go ahead. Yucca: Oh, I was going to say, and it can be something on just the eye contact is something that can be very powerful when it's consensual, right? Like if some of the most powerful experiences I've had with others is just sitting and having a few minutes of just looking into their eyes. Mark: Yes. Yucca: And it can just be really, really moving just a very powerful experience. But it has to be consensual, right? And that's, that's something that we need to mention about everything with ritual, is that there needs to be consent for whatever is happening in the Mark: Indeed. And that's why it's important to give people an overview at the beginning of a ritual about what we're going to do. Now, that doesn't mean exposing every little detail. It can be fine to have things that are surprising not in a negative way, but you can have, you know, surprises along the way that transformative and go, Oh, wow, look, that's what's happening now. But you do want to make sure that everybody has pretty well signed on to going on this ride with you. That's, Yucca: Especially if there's going to be any physical contact, Mark: Oh, yes. Yucca: right? Like, if people are going to hold hands or, you know, put their hands on someone's shoulder or anything like that, that's, it's really important that people know that that's what they're getting into. Because people have very different experiences with that. They don't owe it to us to explain why they're not comfortable or are comfortable with it. That's their business, right? Mark: Exactly so. Um, and I, I referenced a minute ago something, and I'm, and I'm glad that I reminded myself about this because, okay, so, so you're listening to the things that we're talking about here. You've got your, your outline in a binder, and you're, you know, reading that first sentence or getting the reminder of what that next little statement is supposed to be about, and then looking up and looking at people between the eyes so that you don't have to feel uncomfortable about actually meeting their gaze, and then you realize that you can't see what's on the page because you're in low light conditions, and then you get out your flashlight, and And try to hold it in your mouth and read at the same time. And it doesn't work Yucca: for everyone listening, Mark literally put a flashlight in his mouth in that moment that you just happened to have right next to you. Mark: Yes, there happened to be one on my table here. So what you want to do is you want to have some sort of a light source that will clip to your binder, One of those, you know, little, you know, night, Yucca: lamps so that you don't wake your partner up in bed, sort of thing, or yeah, Mark: Very useful tool for a ritual leader to have. They make a, a little light, they've got a little shade on them so that it isn't blinding to other people. And it really gives you the light that you need without being too obtrusive. Yucca: and you can get them in kind of a, an Amber, reddish light, too, and that's really nice because that doesn't spoil people's dark vision as much as like a bright white or blue light might. Mark: Right. I actually saw a park ranger giving a campfire talk using one of those. Yucca: Mm. Mark: seemed like she was new or something, and, you know, didn't quite have the whole wrap down yet necessarily. She Yucca: memorized the entire thing. Mark: Right. She did a great job, but she had to refer to notes and didn't actually use a binder. She used a clipboard, but, you know, same kind of deal. Yeah, and, and she used that amber color. So that people could look up at the stars because part of her part of what she referenced was was stars. Yucca: Right. It was a nighttime activity that you were doing. You weren't out in, you know, the middle of the day, noon, the baking sun. Not in Mark: right. No, we were around a fire and the fire, of course, made some light, but the, but not. I mean, it's going to, that's, that's right. It's going to cast a shadow towards your face, so that's not going to do any good. And it's flickering to begin with, which just makes it very unreliable for reading. So that's a, you know, a little, a little tip that, you know, will actually do you a lot of good if you're doing public speaking in a, in a dark, Yucca: would really encourage people not to use your phones as your light when you're in a ritual setting because just the presence of a phone or a tablet or something like that can really pull people out of the present moment. And the, there's, we, we have a pretty big issue in our society where, with the what is it called? Fubbing? Where people, when their phone is out? In social situations, and somebody's looking at the phone, and then the person who's interacting with them is getting the social signal of, I'm not interested in what you're saying because I keep looking at the phone and so there's a, a lot of people have a emotional, often unconscious, but emotional response to the other person's got their phone out, they're not interested. Mark: right. Yucca: So when we're dealing with symbology and metaphor that, that can be something that's very triggering for people, is to have that phone out. Mark: Great point. I'm really glad you brought that up. And that's another reason why you don't want to have your notes on your phone or on a tablet. I know it's convenient. I know it means that you can just type everything up without printing anything out, any of that sort of stuff. But removing, removing most forms of digital technology from the ritual circle, It helps, and I'm not entirely sure why it helps, but it does. There's something about that technology that is just so riveting for people, it draws their attention so heavily, it becomes much more difficult to be present, and that, of course, is core to what we work to do in a ritual space. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: Um, I, I'm reminded, I've just started, I've started game mastering a game for the first time in 37 years. Yucca: Oh, wonderful. Mark: had our we're playing Shadow Dark. And we started week before last, I'm gonna run another session this week. And one of the things that I, I, I told them, this is gonna be the most painful thing that you're gonna have to do all evening. I made them stack all their phones on the table. If you touch them, you take damage. Yucca: oh, that's brilliant. Mark: You, you, you Yucca: But yeah, it hurts. It can be really uncomfortable to be separated from it. Mark: Sure, because whenever people are, are distracted or bored or uncomfortable, their go to is to bury themselves in their phones. And it's, you know, we, we had a very lively, good social interaction throughout the game because people were engaged with one another rather than with their phones. So, you know, waiting for their turn. So, yeah, that was a great thing. Yucca: Mm hmm. You know, I think that there's a lot of parallels between game mastering and leading a ritual. Mark: I Yucca: So many overlaps between those skills, because on both, you're, you're, it's, both things are collective storytelling, and as the ritual leader, or as the game master, you're guiding that experience, but you're not controlling that experience. Mark: Yeah, that's absolutely true. And, and that has occurred to me before as well that tabletop fantasy role playing games or, or any genre of tabletop games are, they're a group ritual. They, they are a thing that we do, we get together, they have certain kinds of cultural conventions, like rolling dice and, you know, waiting for your turn and all that kind of stuff. And they are consensual behaviors to create a group experience, which is what a ritual is, right? Yucca: Right. Mark: Yeah. The goal isn't necessarily personal transformation, it's entertainment. Yucca: Yeah. Although sometimes, there's, you can have some pretty emotionally powerful experiences. Mark: yes, absolutely. Yeah, I've had players weeping, I've had players falling off their chairs laughing. There's, there's, there's, there's a lot there. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So, that's, Yucca: Yeah, let's go to our next one, Mark: Yeah, that's public speaking. And the good news about public speaking is that the more you do of it, it will become easier. It won't necessarily become easy, but it will become easier. And that's true of all of these skill sets that we're talking about today. The next one that I want to talk about is singing. Yucca: which shares a lot with much of what we've just been talking about with the speaking, but has, has some additional Elements added onto it. Mark: Right. And it does different things. It taps different parts of the brain, and it's much more accessible to the emotional self than, than linear language. There's something about intoning and making harmony and the kind of poetry that tends to be associated with with the songs that you sing in a ritual state, in a ritual setting, Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: all of which, It's just transformative. It moves you emotionally, and that is, of course, a very important part of what we work to do. Yeah, Yucca: And depending on what the song is, it can still be vocal without being verbal. There's many rituals that I've been to that have just had Just had sounds, like, just vowels with the, with the tune and that, that's a nice thing for those of us who aren't really wordsy people or who find lyrics to be difficult to, to catch on to. Some people are really fast with that, right? You put it, my, my youngest, you put anything in a song and he's got it. He's got the lyrics to it. He's got the words. And like, how are you even singing? You know, we'll listen to songs in languages he doesn't speak, and he's singing along with it, right? So some people's brains work that way, and other people, I can, I can get the melody, but what are the words to that? I don't know. So it's a nice opportunity sometimes to have the songs that are just sounds that people can just join in with if they're comfortable with it or not, right? Mark: right. And that raises two really interesting things for me. The first of which is that I like for it to be a convention in the rituals that I do that if someone just can't get the lyrics or doesn't like the lyrics or whatever it is, they can just ah along, you know, they can just sing the vowel ah and still, still get the melody out there, right? So that they're participating, so that they have a role, and that's a perfectly acceptable role. The other Is that there's this wonderful practice called circle singing. I don't know if you've heard of this.  Yucca: Keep going, because it could mean several different things. Mark: it's a directed, like, like a choral director kind of program where The choral director will sing one line and will teach a group of the participants that line, and they'll sing it over and over and over again, and then the choral director sings another part for another three people that interlocks with that first melody, so what you end up with is this, and you can have, you know, three, four, even five parts if you're really good at this what you end up with is this very intricate, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun. Sort of tapestry of sound the musician Bobby McFerrin does this a lot. He used to do a New Year's Eve singing in the New Year's circle song event at the Glide Cathedral in San Francisco every year. And it's just, it's a cool way for people that aren't going to do lyrics and may only need to You know, seeing a very simple, repeated line to still be fully engaged in participating in making something that's really cool. Yucca: yeah. Just make sure that there's a group of people for each line, that you don't have one person trying to remember and carry that so that when they do so that they can Use the other person as help for when they forget the line or get a little bit confused because they're hearing the other song and, you know, so don't try, don't put one person on the spot for it who's not, you know, the professional singer. Mark: right. You can also do this with round. There are a lot of, of musical rounds that, you know, you teach one line to one group of people and another line to another group of people or you teach the whole thing to everybody and then you start them off set. So one person sing, you know, one group sings the first line, and then the second group starts singing the first line again as the first group continues to do the second line, and you just go around like that. And rounds can be very beautiful and really trance inducing to sing. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So singing, it's, and I know there are a lot of people out there who are like, I'm tone deaf, I can't sing I can't carry a tune. That is true for some people. It is true for some people. And what you may want to do instead is to learn how to use your voice rhythmically. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: So, instead of having to carry tones, you can just bah, bah, bah, bah, bah, bah, bah, kind of along with whatever the, the rhythm of the musical piece is, so that you still have a way to plug in. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: But the other thing is that a lot of people who think that they're tone deaf just haven't tried. They haven't, they haven't practiced. I, I wouldn't, Yucca: And not try, but Mark: try isn't the right word. Yucca: built the skill over that have that it has it doesn't necessarily come natural Mark: Right. Yucca: to build that skill is something that takes time and takes exposure just like we were talking about with the public speaking Mark: Yes. That's, that's, that's what I meant. I didn't like the word try either, so thank you. Yucca: but yeah it may be something that just takes the exposure and time and and really and it's going to take different amounts of time for different people right and we're all coming at it from different emotional experiences Mark: Right, right. Yeah and this actually leads us to our third skill set, which can be something that you can replace singing with. This is rhythm and drumming or percussion of various kinds. Because there are people out there that have a wonderful sense of rhythm and are terrific in a percussive sense and just particularly good at following a tune. And that's okay. That's perfectly alright. Um, the, the evocative nature of rhythm and drumming and what it does in our bodies cannot be overstated. know, a good complex drumming riff almost forces us to move. I'm a very heady person, and I grew up over medicated for ADHD, so I twitched all the time. I had lots of tics. So, you know, my body kind of betrayed me a lot, and I've always had kind of an ambivalent relationship with it because of that. The, but still, when I'm in a ritual circle and there's good drumming going on, I want to move, you know, I, I, I want to go. Yucca: yeah, that's, I share that experience. I'm also very, very much in my head a lot of the time, but it feels like it just pulls my awareness down and into my body and kind of spreads it out to a more body awareness and just brings me down to that connection and I feel much more connected with the ground and the rhythm and the, it's just very powerful. Mark: Yes, very much so, and I've, I have a lot of conjectures about why that might be, most of them having to do with a mother's heartbeat. Yucca: yeah, because we all started out hearing. Hearing it, Mark: yeah, Yucca: her pulse was there. Mark: right, all the time, and it got faster and it got slower and, Yucca: and you got the, some of the, not all of them, but some of the hormones crossing the placenta into you, so you're sharing some of those feelings with her as you're associating what her heart is doing. Mark: right. Yucca: You're also getting to hear all the gurgles of her digesting and all of that stuff too. Mark: Right. That's true. Yucca: But that heart, that ever present heart, Mark: Yes. Yes. And the sort of the, the softening sound of the lungs, breathing in, breathing out. There's probably a little bit of a stretching sound with the diaphragm Yucca: You probably feel that, too, as you're taking up more space. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: And then you probably kicked her in the diaphragm a few times and she went, Right, no Mark: out maybe, maybe not to do that again. Yucca: what your experience later on in life, we all started That way with that very primal experience of being before our minds and brains had really developed the way they are now before, at least I think, I mean, we're human beings, but, you know, even before that, but before we really did. come into being an aware person in the way that we are Mark: sure. Yucca: individuals on the outside, that's, you know, I like thinking about all of that, about thinking about that transition between going from just being a part of her to being our own people, and then, yeah, Mark: And the whole sort of unboxing experience of, you know, turning the lights on in various parts of your brain and, you know, all that kind of stuff. It's really fascinating. Yucca: yeah and just the, I think the development of how we, so this is something, we often talk about you know, growing a baby, right? And as the mothers, we are, sort of, except it's actually the baby that's growing themselves. Their body is telling themselves what to do. We're supplying all, we're supplying the home for that, all of the supplies, but from the moment that, that cell, is following its own instructions and becoming its own person. And it's just amazing the different, you know, what we do know of it and the different steps of, like, when certain things develop. Like, when they start being able to sense light, right? About halfway through, you can shine a light on your belly and they'll start kicking because they can see the light. But a week before, they couldn't see the light. They didn't respond to it because they Physically couldn't see it, and now they can, and I, it's just a, I think it's an amazing process, and we, we've just barely begun to, to scratch the surface of understanding what's, what's happening. And we all went through it. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Don't consciously remember it, but I think it affects us later on, which Mark: Oh, I agree. Yucca: the rhythm, Mark: Yeah. I absolutely agree. Yucca: it's speculation on our part that our connection to rhythm is connected to that heart, but it seems like, this seems like a logical path to take. Mark: Yeah. And I mean, many babies when they're very young will be responsive to rhythmic music. Yucca: Absolutely. Mark: know, it's like if there's, if there's a strong, steady beat in something, they will move to it. Yucca: Yep. Mark: So that's all to say that it's coded very deeply in us to be responsive to that. You know, to the pulsing of rhythm and the ability to create that, even if it's just a steady beat, like a heartbeat kind of beat. It doesn't have to be Zakir Hussain playing the tablas. I mean, if, if you're, if you have a good sense of rhythm and you're interested in putting in the time that it takes to develop, you know, those wonderful Middle Eastern or African or Indian or Yucca: Or any, yeah, there's Mark: any culture, you know, Amazing repertoires than, you know, do that because we need more of that in the world. But just the ability, you know, I have a good rhythm sense, but I'm, I have ADHD and it's very hard for me to do things that I'm not good at for a long period of time until I become good at them. So I just have a frame drum, a simple, round. Frame drum. And I use that for creating sort of a drone y rhythm, heartbeat sound in rituals. And it makes a big difference. Yucca: mm hmm, Mark: It's a really big difference. So I really encourage all of you that are developing your, your ritual tool set, you know, to get shakers or claves, you know, the wooden things that hit against one another or Or a drum and just start, play around. It's fun. It's fun to do. Yucca: And earlier we were talking about, you know, some of the caution around phones and technology and things like that, but I do think that there can be a place for the recorded music as well especially when it comes to the drumming and keeping a beat and things like that. When you have a group of people. And you have multiple instruments. I mean, to me, that's golden, right? You have the whole group doing it. But if you're in a solo situation, or, you know, your hands are busy doing lots of other things, or whatever it is, you know, there's a lot of great things recordings of, of drumming and rhythm and things like that. Mark: Yeah. And there's been a resurgence or, or a surg I guess, which is sort of the first thing of of groups that do very sort of ritually trancey kind of music groups like Dead Can Dance and Wardruna and ung and you know, some groups like that, that really, you know, they're really exploring that. That way that rhythm can really influence us at a physical level and that stuff can be great ritual music, can be really useful. There's actually a page on my blog that is musical suggestions for ritual, and there's a long list of different possible things that you can choose from for, with different kinds of flavors and styles. Yucca: Mm hmm. Yeah. My suggestion would be, though, listen through to what, to what it is before you use it in your ritual. Because sometimes there can be a little bit of a surprise in there that was like, Ooh, that was not, that was not what I was going Mark: That wasn't what I was looking Yucca: this ritual. Yeah. Mark: Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah. Yucca: Yeah. Now that, I think. moves really nicely into our final one, which is movement itself. I have a hard time hearing a rhythm and not moving to it. Mark: Huh. Yucca: Because it's just, as we were talking about, it's just so powerful. There's, I mean, they're so connected. The Venn diagram of, of rhythm and movement to me are, they're not quite a circle, but they're pretty close. Mark: They're pretty close. Yeah. And I, I find rhythm to be such an invitation to movement and because I'm so heady most of the time, my body is really thirsty for that kind of activity. So it's, there's a very, there's a liberating quality. To, you know, moving, like moving in a ritual circle and dancing and, and, you know, interacting with a fire and interacting with other people and just all that. That sense of freedom. It feels like flying in a way. It's, it's, it's a very strong, very free, very, very filled with yourself kind of feeling like you're expressing yourself in a really full way. Yucca: and a couple of things to keep in mind if you are the one designing or leading the ritual with a group of people to have options for different levels of mobility. So some people may need to have a chair or something to be sitting in, and may not necessarily be able to do a big spiral dance around the fire or something like that. And so having natural options for them. To be able to participate is really important. Go ahead. Mark: Yes. And what I was going to say is that when you blend These ritual skills, you can give people opportunities to do things that, that are within their abilities, right, that are consistent with their aptitudes, what they're interested in doing and what they can do. So, you know, you can have some people who are sitting and drumming and other people who are up and dancing and singing, you know, or You know, some combination thereof. I remember I was at a Fire Circle ritual. God, it's gotta be seven years ago now. And there was all, you know, we were, we were in this really high point in the ritual and dancing and, you know, the drums are thundering along, you know, very intricate, super talented drummers. And then suddenly they stopped and everybody slowed down but kept moving. While someone did a spoken word piece, and it was beautiful, it was just this, this, this rapt moment, you know, when you could almost still hear the echoes of the drums because it had been so loud and so fervent and so intense and then suddenly downshift and it all went into this other place, Yucca: someone suddenly starts whispering and everyone has to lean in to listen to what is that whisper? What are they saying? Mark: Exactly. Yucca: wow. Wow. Mark: Which is why I like the, the center portion of a ritual after invocations and creation of a safe container to be somewhat improvisational, you know, that there's room for different people to contribute different things if there's time and if that's the kind of ritual that people want to do. But I've had great experiences with that sort of thing. So movement and yes, people can be very self conscious. I, you know, as I described, I had a difficult relationship with my body and I didn't start dancing until I was in my late twenties. And a low light condition helps. Yucca: Right. Mark: You know, that sense that you're not being watched by other people really helps. Yucca: And a timing in the ritual I think can make a really big difference for people because it is something that is a little bit, can be a little bit uncomfortable that. Most people are not comfortable jumping straight into dancing, right? So, it might be something that needs a little bit of warm up to get to the place where people feel like they can can do that, right? So maybe you, you work towards it with some of the spoken and then moving into the singing and then into the dancing. And just, just kind of know your audience, right? If you're working with a circle that you see every You know, every Mark: Few weeks or Yucca: then you're going to have a, it's going to be a very different relationship than this is the once a year summer solstice celebration that you're doing at the Pagan Pride Festival. Mark: Right, right. Yeah, that's a really good point. You know, obviously, making tailorings and adjustments for for whoever it is that you're going to be working with in a ritual is really key and there is a way to work with people of every level of ability, every level of ability. Of uniqueness, in terms of their aptitudes, their capacities there's, there's stuff that can be done that can help people to come into a ritual space. Yucca: Mm hmm. Mark: So, it's, it's, but it, having these four tools in your quiver there's a mixed metaphor, having, having these four arrows on your tool belt, Yucca: Yes. Mark: It's a good way to start because then you have the capacity to pull out whatever seems to be the right thing for that group of people at that particular moment. Yucca: Mm hmm. Yeah. And these are things that you can incorporate into your solo practice, and that's where a lot of the practice that we've been talking about. We'll start, Mark: Mm Yucca: right, becoming comfortable with the singing or the dancing I'm saying those ones in particular because those ones are ones that I think are really hard for our culture. We have a very, very sedentary culture. We're very much expected to stay still and seated and especially in social situations. We find, we're very uncomfortable with movement overall. Mark: We're also uncomfortable with sound, to some degree. I mean, this varies from culture to culture, but, I mean, British people will tell you how loud Americans are, but having lived in Spain, Americans aren't that loud. Yucca: No, depending on which part of Spain though, right? Even Mark: Well, yes. Yucca: in Basque country, their opinion of the Andalusians, you know, is wildly different, Mark: Oh yes, Yucca: But yeah, so it depends on, on what cultural context but speaking very, very broadly of, of you know, North American, so American and Canadian, we tend to be compared to say, somebody from the Mediterranean, we tend to be pretty, we tend reserved and I'll, you know, we don't talk with our bodies as much and we don't get up and dance and, you know, that sort of thing is very difficult for us. Mark: right, Yucca: And so it might take some time getting used to doing that on your own and then practicing in a group and the more times you do it, you know, the, the The more practice you have, the more skill that you're going to build up in that. And it's okay if it takes some time, but it's worth it, I think, right? Because I think that those rituals can be really powerful and just very enriching, Mark: yeah, yeah, that's definitely been my experience and I don't claim by any means to have fully mastered any of these things even the ones that I'm naturally good at and so it's a work in progress and that's always great because it's not about getting there, it's not about arriving, it's about the process of evolving over time, which is what we're about. Yucca: right? Mark: For as long as we get, we can evolve. Yucca: Yeah, it's kind of like an evening walk. You don't take the evening walk to get to a place. You take it for the enjoyment of going out and, you know, the birds are singing and changing their tune and the air feels cool and, you know, all of that experience. It's about that. Mark: Right. Exactly. So this has been a cool conversation, Yucca. Thank you so much. Yucca: Yeah. Well, and I look forward to, in just a few short months, doing some rituals with you and the rest of the folks coming to the Sun Tree Retreat. So that's coming up. Mark: We're actually releasing the program for Suntree Retreat this week. Yucca: Mm Mark: there's, you'll if, you know, you're in the community in various ways, you'll see various promotions to, to make sure that people can download that and take a look at all the Rituals and workshops and, and things we're going to be doing. So, and shout out to Michael O'Halloran, Michael O'Halloran of our community who's done a lot of work on that program. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: thanks everybody. We really appreciate your listening to the podcast and welcome your, your input and your questions as always. We'll see you next week.   

Mark Groves is the founder of Create The Love, and host of the Mark Groves Podcast. Mark is on a mission to bridge the academic and the human, inviting people to explore the good, the bad, the downright ugly, and the beautiful sides of connection. His work empowers people to step into their power, transform the way they relate to themselves and others, and create authentic change in their lives. Mark and I sit down on the coast of Tofino, Canada for a special two-part episode. In part 1, we talk about fatherhood and parenthood.  In this episode, we discuss: Fatherhood as a deeper window to look at where there is still work to be done on oneself. After having a child, what is most important? Old wounds and patterns that tend to arise during parenthood.  How intimacy dynamics tend to shift after having a child. The reasons why an uncomfortable number of couples divorce after the first year of a child's life. Nurturing your feminine energy as a man.  Accessing discipline and discernment as a father. Upholding the ethical obligation to be successful.  Being purpose-driven as a man. The paradox of choice. The downsides to technology and access to mass communication. Consciously choosing every aspect of your life. Embracing a cultural initiation into manhood. What is toxic masculinity and why does it exist? Valuing mother and father roles in the family. Inflated egos and immaturity. What comes after ego dissolution? The benefits of taking time off work to support your new family. How fathers can support their own health after having a kid. The importance of talking to other men after having a child. The gift of being a parent and the gifts you receive from your child. And a question for Mark: Now that you have a kid, is it worth it? Would you recommend it? Links from this Episode: Part 2 of This Episode (on C0.vid Hysteria) will come out in 2 weeks and links will be updated at that time. Mark's Website Mark's Instagram  Mark's Podcast  Mark on YouTube Conscious Relationship Council - a live 12-week relationship training for men Arka Brotherhood - men's work. Previous episodes with Mark: Evolving Man Podcast - Holding Space with Mark Groves Evolving Man Podcast - To Be A Man with Mark Groves See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Here is a very lightly edited transcript of the SuperCrowdHour for July, The Power of a Purpose Round with Parker Clay CEO Ian Bentley, DealMaker CEO Rebecca Kacaba and Renew Venture Capital's Mark Hubbard.Devin: I have just the most extraordinary panel discussion organized today, and I just couldn't be more excited about it. Rebecca Kasaba is the CEO of DealMaker, which is one of the fastest-growing companies in North America. I mean, Rebecca, you're just killing it. You're absolutely crushing it. We're thrilled to have you here to take a minute to be on the show. Ian Bentley is the CEO of Parker Clay, and he's working with help from Rebecca. He's in the middle of a $15 million goal of a crowdfunding campaign. We're excited to talk to him about that. He's got an incredible social mission. I just love what he's doing. And Mark Hubbard, who is the managing director of Renew Venture Capital, he's playing a vital role in putting that together. And so they've created, and they are sort of walking their talk, eating the dog food, as folks in Silicon Valley like to say, they are actually modeling the use of what they've started to call a purpose round. And I'm excited to talk to them about that because their crowdfunding campaign is really centered on fulfilling their mission.Devin: So with that, Ian, let me invite you to just take a minute and tell us about the mission, the social purpose behind and the motivation and purpose for Parker Clay.Ian: Thanks, Devin. Yeah, and doing it in a minute would be a little bit tricky, but I can try. I just got home, back to California, where our headquarters are here in the US. But I just got back from our factory in Ethiopia; I was there for actually about a month. A little bit longer than I'm normally there. But we so as you can imagine, we've got both an Ethiopian headquarters and a US headquarters. And it started back in 2012 when my family and I bought one-way tickets, left California, left our careers, moved to Ethiopia; and we moved there primarily to help women who had been caught in trafficking and really looking for more dignified employment opportunities. That was not that line of work. And we were doing skills training, and job training, discovered the leather industry while we were living there, and saw it as primarily being exported to the world, like Europe. And we thought we could create jobs for women. And really, that was the purpose of why we were there to create opportunities for women to thrive. And we are doing that through business. So really kind of changing the model around even aid that has been poured into the country for many, many years and shifting that to a trade model and doing business at scale. And we'll talk more about the manufacturing opportunities and all that we're doing there. But we've got a team now of about 200 people, 80% of whom are women. And we are proud of the impact and the work we get to do every day through that.Devin: Yeah, it is just really inspiring what you're doing. And I was shocked by the story when I heard it and thrilled and really admire the work that you've been doing. You've been at this for a while now. It's been a decade or so since you, the roots of this effort, began. Is that right?Ian: Yeah, Yeah. We officially started in 2014. That's when we set up the entity. So it's been almost ten years. I have lost all my hair and gotten a few more gray hairs, and working alongside my wife is the creative director of Parker Clay, and we've got five kids, so a very full life as well. But it's been it's an exciting time at the moment really for what we're doing because a lot of the hard work we've put into the foundation over these past few years is now really ripe to scale. So that's why we're doing what we're doing.Devin: Yeah. Well, Rebecca, as you have, you know, worked with Ian, one of the things that I've observed from our past conversations about this, and we've had an opportunity to talk about it a few times, I think you have a real passion for this. I wonder if you tell us a little bit about how you feel about this and how you're working to DealMaker to support Parker Clay.Rebecca: Devin, I'm happy to. Yeah, we're really excited about what Parker Clay is doing. Remember when my team first met Ian, we were so excited about the company and the mission and the way they're having such a transformative impact on Ethiopia that we were like, Okay, this is one deal we've got to get for the system. We've got to win this one. So what DealMaker does is essentially give companies the technology infrastructure they need to raise capital digitally online. And so traditionally, in my background as a capital markets attorney, I saw a lot of paperwork being exchanged in order to get capital raising done. And when the Jobs Act came out, I saw the opportunity for all of this capital raising to move online. And, you know, like Ian, it's been a short ten-year journey where we've watched the legislation transform, and we've really seen digital marketing take a huge foothold now in this industry and give entrepreneurs a way to communicate their message to all the four corners of the Internet, to people who their message might appeal to and build up a community behind them and don't want to get too into it because I know we'll continue to chat about it for the next hour, but it's something I'm really passionate about, the impact that people today want to have with their investments, especially when they see companies like Parker play, and they want to do things, you know, they see what Mark and Renew are doing. And this whole trend of impact investing is something that we're all fortunate to be a part of and get to propel forward, which really just makes the world a better place and gets better businesses funded.Devin: Yeah. Well, Mark, I want to turn to you now for a second. We've it's my sense, and I may be wrong, forgive me if I am, but it's my sense that you played a really vital role in pulling this together for both your capital and your concept. So what I'd like to do is to invite you to talk a little bit about your role in all of this and why it is that what Ian does resonates with you.Mark: Sure. I guess it goes back to sort of the genesis of the term purpose around for us, you know, what we were trying to accomplish. And then Ian became sort of part of the first use case for that, not the total piece, but certainly the proof case for, for why we want to do it. As Rebecca said, everything we do is impact. We have a venture studio and a venture capital firm, and it's all either social impact companies or it's women and historically excluded founders. And those don't have to be impact companies. And we want to, I mean, look, we're part of, as Rebecca mentioned, this sort of global shift and what I sort of call a movement. It's kind of a paradigm shift where more and more people want to align what they say they believe about the world with what their money does in it. Right. Or what their effort does in it. A lot of people will shift professionally in those ways. I mean, I guess I am in some ways, it's taken me 20 years, but in some ways, I'm part of that shift as well. And so, you know, we looked at the look, any time you do investing, you're a two-sided marketplace. Right. So I have investors that I invest on behalf of, and I have companies and founders that we invest in. And so the thing we saw was really twofold, both sides of that marketplace. One, that it was really frustrating that only rich people, you know, only accredited investors, could... I mean, they still, to this day, right in the fund, I can't take anybody who's not accredited. I have to see your tax statements.Mark: So I really can't take anybody who's not accredited. And so that's frustrating, like in and of itself, just sort of from an investing standpoint that you can't invest in early-stage companies; you can't really do VC. When you couple that with the idea that this is an effort to align your values with what your money does, like, that's a justice issue that a non-accredited investor is not allowed to do. We're only going to let rich people do that. You know what? What is the what's the power that we leave on the table and in that dynamic? So that's one issue, right? Then the other was, what do we do about--and Ian will probably be okay with me saying this--there's a whole lot of companies that could be big, huge, successful companies that the founders are dynamic, that people want to support, that people align with aspirationally, that it's not just a product that they buy and that it's really something they want to be a part of themselves. But it's hard to figure out how you put those companies into a venture fund. And because they're too capital intensive, or the timeline is too long, or they're just not in vogue, or they're systemic issues, you know, as it comes down to like a lot of women and historically excluded founders. And so, how do we open pathways? How do we support these kinds of purpose-focused companies to allow them to go raise expansion capital, real, real money? Like ten, 20, $70 million. By being able to tell their story of their purpose and what they're trying to accomplish more broadly and involve a much bigger community in that discussion.Devin: And. I want to just pause here for a moment to say a couple of things. First off, if you are here in the Zoom room with us, please, we invite you to begin thinking about thoughtful questions you have for these extraordinary individuals who are on the panel today. We're going to welcome your questions. You can use the Q&A function in Zoom to ask those questions most readily. And I also want to reiterate the invitation. If you're watching on YouTube and would like to ask a question, just hit on.s4g.biz to register and hop into the call. We'd love to have you join us here in the Zoom room, where you can ask a question. So now, continuing on the discussion, I hate to interrupt the flow, but you know,Devin: It really is, I think, exciting to think about what this means. You know, Rebecca, you've got this technology that you're deploying, and you hinted at this already, that allows people like Ian to begin to connect with people who are not yet part of the community. That's a pretty exciting thing. Tell us about your technology.Rebecca: Yeah. So the way we set up an offering, if you've got a brand like Parker Clay, a really nice high-value brand, you want to allow them to control the buying experience so that an investor coming in has the same high-end experience to buy shares as they would to buy a purse or some similar product from Parker Clay. And so, we allow them to set up a standalone website with an Invest Now button. And our goal is to really make it as easy for investors to buy shares online as it is to buy a pair of shoes. So get them through the securities law exemption, get their payments, their investments funded, get contracts signed, get the securities law exemptions and background checks, run all very streamlined purchasing experience at the click of a button and then allow the companies to have access to their funnel and really to treat their capital raise the same they way they would if they were digitally marketing a product so they can see who their buyers are, where their interest level stems from, and they can really then start to identify the community that is interested in their capital, raise and build a community around that profile and then reach more people. And our goal is to really expand this, to make capital raising global so that we can right now allow people to raise across North America as well as into different other regions so that they can find all the different folks that might be interested in what they're doing and really leverage the power of the Internet to its fullest capacity.Devin: It is exciting to think about this. And Mark, you know, it's I kind of credit you again, I apologize if I'm getting this wrong, but I kind of credit you with thinking of this and identifying the possibility that purpose can be a connector that Rebecca can kind of leverage with her technology to benefit someone like Ian, an entrepreneur like Ian to attract capital. I wonder. How did you develop this idea? Because it got I got to say, the traditional view of crowdfunding is you leverage your community to raise capital. And what you're doing is you've changed the thesis and say, we're going to leverage our purpose to build a community from which we can build raise capital. What where did that idea come from, Mark?Mark: Yes, like, like all my great ideas. I assume it came from somewhere else. Yeah. Look, the history of the crowdfunding world started with a lot of crowd talk, right? That. That, in general, just you want to get to the people, whatever that means. And it's not a particularly strategic idea necessarily, but you just go out to the crowd. And then there became this idea of community. Right. That really, when you look at what happens in a crowdfunding scenario, what happens is really your community for the most part, right? You may broaden it some, but a lot of it is leveraging people that were already in the community or are sort of on the edges and will come in and feel an affinity. And that's all like that's really useful stuff. It's exciting to take a community. I mean, even before you get to any purpose discussion, right? They have this community that is just deeply identified with what they do. And, you know, thousands and thousands of people who would do who would drive anywhere or go anywhere or just, you know, to be associated with their business. And so that kind of crowd or community thing is useful and helpful and can help one of these campaigns be successful. My thought was just as great as that is. If you can take a community and you can activate that community around a purpose, that's a different thing. Like that is maybe it feels like a nuanced difference, but that's there's a power in that's different than the whole rest of the activities. And so, therefore, yes, there ought to be an opportunity to have all kinds of people who would who do want to make an investment.Mark: That's why you know, this is this bespoke landing page thing. Right. That's an interesting animal because, although functionally, it should be as easy as buying a product, right? It's not quite like buying a product. And so but you do want to tell a story about the business and the product, but you do want to tell the impact story. Like, that's a lot of stuff to balance and a lot of needles to thread. But if people can get into that, if people can who do want to invest in something that will be successful, who want this to be part of what they're, you know, money makes possible in the world, can also then connect with this story of transformation. You know, that's really, really powerful. And I do believe that that could be broadened far beyond sort of just your normal customer base. And look, then, the flip side of a crowdfund, right? What's so great about that idea is that if you that every person that you can align with you that wasn't a customer before. Not only do they probably become a customer, but they become the whole process is taking customers and the community and turning them into owners and advocates. And so when they became owners, they become advocates in a way that could really drive sort of the underlying fundamentals of the business going forward. And so it seemed to be for me like the, you know, sort of the perfect storm of possibility there.Devin: Well, it is exciting to think about how this has the potential to work. And of course, now, Ian, you're living in the middle of it, right? You're in the middle of this campaign. You've been you launched this. I'm trying to recall, was it early this year that you launched the campaign or late last year?Ian: It was late last year. Yeah, November of last year.Devin: So you've had enough of a run now, I guess, to see how it's working. Are you seeing actually some people who were outside your community that have been drawn in by purpose to invest? And then the parallel question, and I'm curious about, is, are we also seeing are you also seeing those folks who come in as fresh members of the community, as investors? Are they also becoming customers?Ian: Yeah, we are the, and I think the way Mark was describing it is, is true. The power of community is is is a big deal. And I mean, I'm even reminded in coming back from Ethiopia how important community is for all of us. The word that I kept hearing over and over in Ethiopia was resilient, resilient, resilient. And sometimes, you know, you've got some people that are strong, some people that are weak. How do we help each other? How do we help each other through those challenges and the good and the bad? And it's a beautiful thing that I get to see, perhaps sometimes more when I'm in Ethiopia, but reminded that even here in the US and other parts of the world where we have even adopted this proverb that it's an African proverb that says If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. And we're constantly saying that. It's become such an ingrained part of our DNA at Parker Clay, where we look through decisions with the business with regards to whether we go together; what does that look like? And I can tell endless stories of even just these last few weeks in Ethiopia of doing just that. And you know, what we get to do, and I think even just what Mark was saying with regards to how we thread all these stories together, that we are a business, we're a for-profit, purpose-driven business, right? We're a legal public benefit corporation that has the idea baked into it that we are benefiting the public in some way.Ian: And so driving that purpose every day at Parker Clay is essential. But we're also building, you know, an exciting business. And so the question I think that comes up as we approach the community, you know, and it's a little bit more of a newer idea, is can you be kind of can you focus on both profit and purpose? And I think, historically, we have separated these things very distinctly, right? Where we have kind of charitable giving, charitable donations, aid, things that we're doing which are not bad and are needed. But then we have for-profit, right? And then we have businesses that are just purely about profit. And I think that that has been the model for many, many years. And only really, and I would say the last ten or so years, have businesses been looking at more of a purpose-driven structure. And, you know, we've seen that because we've been doing it from the beginning. And so I think that's where as we approach the community, we get to certainly bring that out of more of our existing customers. And we've seen a significant amount of people interested in this round. For many, it might be their first type of investment like this, right? Because this is still a new space. And I think opportunities like this webinar and the education around it are important because, for a lot of people, they just haven't had the opportunity unless they've been, like Mark said in the beginning, more of institutional investors who have that experience. And so for customers who have been buying our bags, this might be the first type of investment.Ian: And one practical way to share that. We had a warehouse sale here in Santa Barbara at our warehouse, and the community came out. They were excited to buy bags and drove from kind of all over California to come. And this one woman came up to me and said, Hey, I'm one of your shareholders. And she said, I'm with a big smile with a ton of excitement, and that just would never be possible before, right? Where she was saying it with pride as an owner, I'm a shareholder in the company. I'm excited not just about your bags, which I love, but also being part of this in a deeper way with you. And so, you know, we have seen both the existing community base, which I think has been a big part of our strength, and that's also brought in some new faces who have then converted to customers, some people who maybe own businesses now kind of come in and go, hey, one of my gifts for my employees or my clients. And so it really has allowed us to stretch that out and the opportunities out with our offering, not only from the investment side but from the product side. And that is a benefit, I would say for sure, with this type of route is if you are a consumer brand, you get to bring in this customer base, and if you have a product, it's also fun to share because you kind of get both investment and customers who are buying your product.Devin: Yeah, it's really exciting to think about the synergy between the investment and the product sales. Of course, I've dated myself just by using the 90s word synergy, but that's where, you know, it was ingrained. It was beaten, I think. You know, many of us in business school back in the day got a tattoo on an arm. Um, so anyway, sorry. I apologize for using the word synergy. But there is some exciting interplay between the investors and the customers. Rebecca, I want to talk to you a little bit more broadly about investing in these kinds of deals. I know you're a broker-dealer, and you have to be careful. You're an attorney. You're smarter than I am. Help us understand. How sort of anyone now can invest as easily almost in a deal like Parker Clay Let's be a little bit nonspecific so you can stay a little bit out of some of the regulatory scrutiny for a minute. So you're not recommending a deal, but tell us a little bit about how people can get comfortable that it's okay to invest. It's a new thing. Ian made it very clear. Right? It's new to people. How do people get comfortable with that as investors?Rebecca: Yeah. Thanks, Devin. And I will disclaim that because I'm not licensed in the broker-dealer. Our broker-dealer helps the issuers' side rather than being the type of broker-dealer that works for the investors. But I think what we're seeing is investors are getting comfortable with the purpose and the mission of the business. And, of course, the regulations are very well designed to make sure that investors have access to all the information they need. So they have fully standardized offering documents that tell them prescriptively about the business and the business plan and who the founders are. And there are bad actor checks run on all the founders before the offerings get set up. And then there are caps on the amount of money that investors can invest in these deals because it is supposed to be for investors to build a portfolio of investments and not, you know, bet the farm on one investment that they're making. And so what we are doing is bringing that awareness to folks so that they can participate in these kinds of offerings and build that kind of portfolio. If you look at it according to Global Impact Investor Network, the impact investing global portfolio stands at 1.2 trillion assets under management. And so there's a lot of capital out there that's looking for deals like Parker Play where people want to be making an impact, as Mark described, with their money and the key trends that we're seeing as part of that impact investing. Ian really described the most important one to me, which is as millennials and the younger generation view the world, they don't view it the same way some of the older generations do with charity and business, and business is out to make a profit, and charity does good in the world.Rebecca: They really see business as a better change agent than charity, and charitable charities need to be able to have a more sustainable business model. And so the two are really blending together in a really interesting way, with Parker Clay being the perfect example of that. We've also seen, you know, statistics like six out of every ten millennials have actually done impact investing, so they know what it is. The people who do it feel good about it. They do it repeatedly. And so we see it really as this snowball that's rolling down the hill where you've now had, you know, ten years ago, the online buying ecosystem was not what it is today. It was almost at zero. People went into bricks and mortar stores to buy everything they needed. Fast forward ten years. That's grown into a $16 trillion industry. And so as we see investing, moving online in the same way, moving out of the boardrooms and the, you know, physical handshakes and online, we've also seen a really nice change in the types of founders that are getting funded with increased female and minority founders because of the way the messaging is being presented. So all of that to say, I think investors are this is resonating with investors. They want to do this. We're seeing the upward trend, and the legislation's been around for over ten years now and has gone through a number of iterations to make sure that it's safe for investors.Devin: Yeah, it's it is exciting to see, you know, in the last, I think, seven or eight quarters, we've seen venture capital decline every quarter. You know, there was some buzz around AI and notwithstanding the buzz around AI, venture capital investment still declined. And uh, but we're seeing Crowdfunding and Reg A plus kinds of deals are pretty solid. We haven't seen the same declines in that space. There's real resilience, and it is exciting to see. And I'm hopeful that as we get a little more confident in markets recovering, we'll see real growth in investment Crowdfunding going on. Mark, I wonder if you would just take a minute and talk a little bit about it. You're thinking about investing as well. I want to make sure that--I know there are entrepreneurs, and we'll come back to that. There are entrepreneurs listening who desperately want to figure out how they, too, can raise $15 million. But all of them are also investors, and others are here primarily because they're interested in investing in Parker Clay or another deal. And your vision, right for this, was driven in no small part by the idea that ordinary investors should have the same opportunity that wealthy investors have. Talk to us a little bit about that.Mark: Sure. Well, I mean, I can do my philosophy of investing, but the two of them just did it. So I'm surprised. I'm surprised they didn't share my deck to make the point. Yeah, there has been historically this two, you know, classically called the two-pocket idea, that in one pocket, I put all the money in the world, and in the other pocket, I give it away to make good things happen. Right? And so that purpose and the context of profit is bad and distracting, and profit in the context of purpose is bad and distracting. Right. And that's just not the world anymore. I mean, it's fine. That was the world for a long time. Friedman messed a bunch of people up. But it's not. I mean, the world now is a bunch of founders who don't see trade-offs, who don't come out of the nonprofit world. We want to build big, giant companies that do really well, that have purpose at the center of what they do, and that the purpose is not a distraction from the profit.Mark: It's that I make my profit via, like, “What are you talking about?” Like, “The purpose drives my profit.” Those aren't competing ideas, and I won't like to give up all my profit because that's business, and that's what makes the purpose possible. Like, what are you even talking about, right? Like, they don't even know how how to put it in that context. And that's how younger investors are, too, right? Like, that's the way they want to think about things. And so so yeah, that's just sort of a new-ish idea. But it's now the water everybody swims in, and everybody better adjust. You know, I always attribute to this, I've always heard it attributed to Marc Andreessen, you know, fellow, fellow purpose warrior who said that impact companies were were like houseboats, right? They're not a good boat and not a good house. And my response was always, that seems kind of weird coming from somebody who spends a bunch of time on a yacht.Devin: So, you know what? There are companies like Parker Clay that are both good houses and good boats, and I don't even know what you're talking about, man. And so, um, so yeah, so that is the future. And I think we're just going to see sort of a massive shift. And although this is new, you know, you know, it's my job generally to, to, to break up assumptions, although this is new and it's hard like I don't you watch any of the meme stock stuff that happened in the last couple of years. I mean, nobody had heard of Robinhood before. And everybody's got mutual funds, and everybody knows what the stock market is, and everybody owns private shares and companies, and people want to go to Berkshire Hathaway's, you know, annual like, no, this isn't new. This is a highly, highly regulated marketplace for people to do what they constantly do all the time. Otherwise, in other places, it just opens up a little slice of the market. Right? It opens up this early stage, mid-stage growth, stage investment in private companies that you didn't have access to before, and now you do so. So take all that comfort you have from all the rest of it, right? And apply it to this new asset class that you just were cut out of before.Devin: Yeah, it's an interesting point. You know, a meaningful part of diversification is to add some private assets to the the mix of things that you're holding. So that's a great, great point. Now, Ian, as you think about your offering, I wonder if you would just take a minute with, you know, we've been kind of talking about the focus on investors, and you, more than anyone, are authorized to speak about your deal. Tell us why you would like why you think it's a good idea for an investor to participate.Ian: Yeah. No. Thanks for that opportunity to share that. Look, one of the wealthiest individuals on the planet right now is in the fashion space. Actually, he is the wealthiest individual on the planet. And it's only been, I would say, in the last 20 or so years that, you know, or 20 plus that that's really kind of launched into the stratosphere with what he's done. The fashion space is really exciting. Africa is really exciting. And when we look at it through this lens when we were living in Ethiopia. It was really an aha moment where everything we were talking about profit, purpose, all those things really aligned when I'm there, and my family and I are working really towards this effort of saying hearing over and over from women saying we don't want handouts, we want jobs, we want opportunities. And when we discovered this raw material, which source--think about ten years ago, we didn't know where things were made or how they were made. We weren't looking at tags. This whole awakening of the conscious consumer was born about ten years ago. And it wasn't just a moment in time. It's a movement. And the movement has been picking up a lot of energy over these last ten years to the point where even, as Rebecca said, with millennials and younger generations. They are investing and spending where their values are. And I think that that is seen today more than ever before in history. And so when we created Parker Clay, we both looked at it and said in order and just to build on what Mark was saying, in order to have the impact we want to see in the world, which we believe women should not have to compromise and choose these really terrible, you know, routes to provide for themselves and their families.Ian: And if we can change that through economic empowerment, then watch out because these women are reinvesting 90% of their incomes back into their communities, into their families, and their kids' lives are going to change. Schools are going to change. These are the next leaders of the world. It's a good investment. And if we can make really beautiful products that, frankly, the world wants, then the combination of those things is so powerful. We're in a space that is approaching $300 billion in terms of the market. So the leather space for fashion brands, both in bags and shoes, kind of become the cornerstone of and building blocks of these fashion brands. And when it comes to Africa. It's an exciting, exciting time. I really cannot stress this enough, for me, spending weeks and months of my year in Ethiopia and in East Africa, the manufacturing world is changing dramatically. If you think about the Industrial Revolution at the peak, it was about 20 million jobs. And right now, there is a shift happening of about 100 million manufacturing jobs that are leaving China and looking for a new home. And when you think about Africa, by 2050, a quarter of the population is going to live on the continent of Africa.Ian: These are incredibly resourced, capable, young, vibrant workers that are looking for opportunities. And so when we look at Africa, we're also, and that's what is exciting about Parker Clay is that it's not just the brand that is selling into a market that is approaching 300 billion. We're also a brand that has taken on the manufacturing opportunity to become vertically integrated. And so we have the opportunity as a manufacturer and as a brand to really press into this market. And we've got the track record. We're 20 plus million in historical sales where we have, again, we've been selling and creating opportunity primarily here in the US and starting to tiptoe into international markets as well. And so there are a lot of very exciting pieces that this raise and why we're doing it. One is to bring the community into it. This would be our typical series A round, and to say, rather than going that traditional institutional round, we want to bring the community to be part of this with us because we see where we're going. We see the potential of building this company into a multinational, really significant brand that can compete on the global level with the other well-known fashion brands in the world who, by the way, might be buying leather from Ethiopia but stamping "made in" somewhere else with it. And that's where we're excited to bring people into that story with us to be part of this with us and truly, again, live up to that value of we go together where you get to be part of it, not just from a financial side with the investment, but also the impact side.Ian: And we are absolutely, and I can tell you that, just literally coming back days from Ethiopia. The way that we are transforming lives is humbling. It's just humbling from my position to be part of that and to see. I'll give you an example. We had a celebration that we've created this called we call it our Center of Excellence, where women can come in with no experience in the leather industry. We can give them job training, skills training along with it. We've partnered with a local bank called Anat, which means mother, and they do financial literacy training. We have a subsidized lunch program. We have a food pantry where we subsidize meals. We have a huge bus that we transport people to be back and forth from home to work because transport is a problem challenge. And we also consistently look at livable wages in the country and are constantly leveling up with regard to that because inflation is a challenge for them. So we take all these impact pieces, and we set that as a priority. We've also become one of the highest-ranked certified B Corps, and we're the top in the world in terms of the leather space. And that also allows us to be third-party accredited with regard to this impact. So it's not just us saying it, it's saying, hey, we're putting our proof through this accreditation as well.Ian: And we're really proud of that. And the vision really for us is to create millions of opportunities, not only through Parker Clay but through the network and showing people that the opportunities here are endless with regards to these women and what can happen in a place like Ethiopia and Africa. Um, so that's, you know, that's where we're at, and we're excited to be able to offer this to the community, to those people that are listening in. Um, and also, you know, I just want to add in with Mark, Rebecca and even Devin, you as well. You guys are part of that community, and really grateful for the contributions that you guys make in lending your voice and the efforts because what we're doing and the power of this whole thing is really we go together. And I think that it is an exciting time where we get to prove that we can do this and put really meaningful opportunities in front of people, not just from the investment side but from the impact side. And I can tell you because I've been in both a nonprofit and a for-profit siloed space, that this space that I'm in now, I've never been more motivated and on fire to work towards the success of this mission and purpose. And I think that we're going to see more people who are aligned with those things motivated and doing similar things as well.Devin: That's great. And we've got.Devin: A great question that came in from Gretchen. She said, Um, do you foresee institutional investors making this mind shift toward purpose investing? Or will it take continuous reg CF and reg growth to lead this new investment world? And Mark, maybe we can start with you, and then Rebecca and Ian, maybe you can close us out on this, but I think it's a great question.Mark: Yeah, I mean, they have–really, if you're old like me, you remember a 2010 research report from JP Morgan back when. Sort of, you know, that long ago, right? So it was sort of a social entrepreneurship, social enterprise. We didn't quite know what the thing was yet. And the argument was that whatever this thing was, this impact thing could potentially be a $1 trillion asset class. That was their argument someday. And you know how asset classes work. Asset classes are like defined verticals of kinds of companies. So small companies, big companies, other kinds of assets, real estate. Right. That's an asset class. And so they said there could be one of those. That's impact, depending on how you define impact. Now, it's something like a 20 to $50 trillion market. And so they were wrong, but they were wrong because what we found out is that it's not the institutional world did not respond to it as an asset class. How we responded to it is as a lens, right? And so it didn't it wasn't like, Oh, I'm going to invest in small-cap stocks and impact stocks. It was, How do I look at small-cap stocks through the lens of impact investing? Because in the institutional world, all impact framework is a risk-adjusted return framework. So they're trying to say, what are the risks associated with this? If I don't look at the impact pieces of it. And so it's become this lens.Mark: Now, what I think is so interesting about CF and Reg A and what I do right early stage investing is that you can do that, you know, on a big global scale. It's just really hard. Like it's hard to figure out how you run a giant multinational corporation in a way that's ethical, and it's just hard, especially if you're trying to turn those around and you have things like ESG and then the backlash to ESG and. Right. And so that's it's incredibly important. Everybody needs there need to be brilliant people working in that world. I just sort of punt on that and say, you know, where it's not all that complicated is in relatively early-stage investing. Look at the kind of control and focus that Ian's able to have right because of this company is what it is. And because it's at the size and stage that it is. And then we can help them build companies that look different in the end than the ones that maybe we have now, even when they're big and giant. And so that's just a meme more satisfying, a more interesting sort of place to play to sort of one-to-one almost what I believe with what I'm making happen. And so, yeah, institutions do do it. It's just a more complicated sort of world in the big high-end, global, national.Devin: Great, great thoughts. Rebecca, do you want to add anything to that?Rebecca: I think Mark covered it well. So the only thing I would add is what we see is typically people really connecting to the specific purpose of the company, and think Reg A gives an investor the ability to connect on a very personal level. And so when you see impact investing in a fund, it's going to be certain high-level defined parameters. Whereas an individual can say, I love what Ian's doing in Ethiopia, and that mission speaks to me. So I want to invest in that company versus like a bucket of companies that have a certain mission. One other thing that I want to add that Ian jogged in my mind that I want to call out. I think it's really interesting how he said it's our series A, but we're about community, and so we're going to choose to do this. There are a lot of companies historically that have similarly made that choice, who think the way Ian thinks. A lot of people don't know that Peloton--huge company today--started out as a crowdfunding campaign. And you've got companies like Substack, you know, going out around a Series B saying we're a community-driven company, and so we want to do this everything down to, you know, the Green Bay Packers, an NFL team who says we're all about our community, we're fan owned, and they're the number one brand in the NFL because they've been doing this for over 60 years. So it is out there. It is a trend that's happening. A lot of those stories we need to just bring to light so people understand that people do think this way and feel this way.Devin: Yeah, great. I think if.Ian: Devin, if I could add to, I think, you know, what's interesting too, is. It's more touchable like it's more connected in that sense. Like I'm available. If anyone has questions, reach out. Right. Like, and I think with these bigger investments and you typically, it feels more unreachable or untouchable. And like the woman coming up to me and saying, Hey, I'm one of your shareholders, that's so exciting. Or I get emails from people saying, I just invested, I respond, and we communicate. I love that. And I think that's another piece that's really powerful because, again, we were just believing also, as a philosophy, we were designed to be in community together. And this is just one more extension of doing just that.Devin: Yeah, that's a great point.Devin: Carl Deacon is asked a great question. And, you know, I'll ask you to tackle this first and then Rebecca and Mark, you may want to jump in and add something. But the question is, how are you attracting people to become investors? Messaging, and communication channels targeting investor candidates. Describe some of the real tactics at the practical level.Ian: Yeah, it's a good question. We've been learning a lot since we started. Having a community is a huge opportunity to start with, right? So we've sold to, like Mark said, thousands of customers. We've been doing this for about ten years. So we've got a really strong customer base that's highly engaged. These are reoccurring customers, people who are coming back, and sharing with friends and family. So that's a huge piece. But what we recognize, too, is that buying a bag and investing in a company, those are a bit different. And so we've had to cater some of that communication that's a little bit different. Right. And I think we've grown one of the one of the most powerful things that you can have is to bring in, I think, a community into that. Think outside of that. One thing that we've been experiencing and expert at is just the way that we do paid advertising and outreach and things like that. And, you know, sometimes we try things, and it works; sometimes we try things, and it doesn't work. And so it's a constant iteration around the types of things we're doing. I think what's most important is setting up a, and if you're a kind of a digital marketer, you have this mindset, but there's also this idea of, you know, broader outreach campaigns, and then you have multiple touchpoints that you continue to follow up with someone. And that's one thing that DealMaker is helpful with, too, is that it's easier to kind of automate some of that communication. But I think email, phone calls, if you have a product, being able to send the product out to people has been really helpful, I think, at its core. And then, on top of that, you can experiment with paid advertising and certain things like that. You just, I think as you mature in any of the campaigns, and that's one of the things that we've seen is as we've brought in more from the campaigns, then we can kind of continue to invest into it and try some more of those things out. So. Those have probably been the core pieces.Devin: Fantastic.Devin: Rebecca, do you want to add anything in terms of those tactics or Mark?Rebecca: I think that that's all through--primarily, it's the website as the main communication vehicle, and then the email really is the primary form of communication to a certain extent or other different, you know, voice mail. I think direct voice-on-voice contact, um, presentation info sessions where people can understand and really get a deep dive on the company and really connect with the founder and understand the founder's mission, all like a Zoom conference. All those are communication methods that folks are experimenting with and trying.Devin: Excellent.Devin: Mark, anything you want to add?Mark: No. I mean, the DealMaker is a good example of believing that that kind of stuff's important. I mean, they bought, you know, what they would argue what a lot of people would argue was sort of the premier marketing firm. Right. To go out and tell stories, to make it part of a vertically integrated approach. I mean, so, you know, for us, the purpose rounds isn't a company; it's just a category we're trying to help define, right? It's if you're a historically excluded founder or a woman founder or you're doing, you know, an impact thing, and you're doing one of these Reg A. We would define that sort of as trying to raise a round of funding with purpose. That's a purpose round. And so, so we chose to engage by saying, look, we have resources, and so why don't we come alongside founders who want to do this column alongside company operators who want to do this? Because one thing about it is that it can be sort of semi-complicated. There's a bunch of vendors. I mean, what DealMaker has done so well, say, well, we'll in-house some of those, right? So it's a much more seamless kind of approach. So they have a transfer agent and but you still have a lawyer, and you still have an auditor, and you still...Mark: So, it still can be kind of complex. And number two, it can be expensive. I mean, you write a check to all those people, and, you know, Ian can attest to you can be a hugely successful company doing really, really well for a long time. And you don't just pull sort of free money out of your ear to make things happen. That's, you know, that can be a real challenge. So we just said, why don't we help try to take those two things off the table? Number one, why don't we try to come alongside and sort of help do some top-level management so it's a little bit easier to manage the vendors? And then number two, why don't we use some of our capital and just fund the whole thing in a model that gets us that money back at some point so we can help somebody out too. But how do we take all the all that, you know, how do I come up with the money off the table and just provide the money? And that then opens up the ability to do things like marketing and focusing on storytelling in a way that you maybe would have a hard time swallowing otherwise.Devin: Yeah, well.Devin: Our time is, is up. And this has just been a fascinating discussion for me, and I'm grateful for all of your insights and for you making the time. I'm grateful to those who joined us today to hear what you're saying. Before we wrap up, let me invite each of you to just take a minute and share a closing thought, a brief closing thought. We just have a minute or two, but why don't we go to Rebecca, Mark and then Ian?Rebecca: Why you're here is to talk about impact investing, and I think the snowball's rolling down the hill.Devin: It's a great message. Great message.Devin: Mark, any closing thoughts?Mark: Closing thoughts? Uh. Um. Invest.ParkerClay.com.Ian: That was my thought, Mark.Mark: Oh, now you got to come up with something. You're the...Rebecca: You're mine too, but I can't say it.Ian: I know it would feel weird about it.Mark: I'm like, I'm the one person who could just come out and say it.Ian: I love that. You'll see if you go on LinkedIn, Mark often will do that on my post in case I miss it. Look, I'm, I'm honored for anyone who is listening or part of this that you would consider investing. We're in kind of the tail end of our last few months of this round. And so we're going to be making a big push to bring in the hopefully the final amounts of what we're hoping to raise. So would love to have you check out the site. Invest.ParkerClay.com, and email me you can email me directly at Ian@ParkerClay.com. If you have any questions, I'm happy to chat more about what we're doing or questions about these types of rounds.Devin: Fantastic.Devin: Well, again, thank you, all three of you. I'm extremely grateful for your time. You know, the insights that you're providing are profoundly important, and it is exciting to think it truly is exciting to think for social entrepreneurs and diverse founders to think about the possibility that the very purpose that motivates and drives them is enabling their success and is not a friction, but it is a tool for accomplishing success and raising capital. To those of you who attended today, I want to thank you very much. Whether you're watching on YouTube or elsewhere or whether you're here with us in Zoom, we thank you very much for being here. I invite you to visit thesupercrowd.com to check out our upcoming future events. We will be holding three in-person events this fall and early winter. Um, we're at the earliest stages of planning, but it looks like we'll be in Salt Lake City in Baltimore and perhaps Northern California later this year, and we will continue doing the super crowd once a month. And so our next super crowd hour will be on August 19th, I think. Let's let me just double-check. August 16th, excuse me, August 16th. So four weeks from today, we'll see you here again. So thanks, everybody. I hope to see you again soon. Get full access to Superpowers for Good at devinthorpe.substack.com/subscribe

WHAT IS REAL LEADERSHIP? Why we need it NOW more than ever in this nation. On Today's Episode Of The Vertical Momentum Resiliency Podcast Richard Kaufman Sits Down With (RET) LTC OAKLAND McCulloch. To Listen/Watch Say Alexa Or Google Home Play Or Click Here -https://anchor.fm/richard-kaufman6/episodes/Becoming-The-Leader-You-Were-Meant-To-Be-Unlock-Your-Full-Potential-With-RET-LTC-McCULLOCH-e20bdr5

Mark: Well, look, it's really it's a, it's a long journey. I've read your book, I've read many books, I've been in this game for a long time. It's very difficult to sum it up in literally minutes, I suppose. But after reading a book just recently, and listening to all your podcasts a lot lately, I've delved into a lot of it and taken many, many things out of each person's story, which I can resonate wholeheartedly with. But I probably got into Options back in 2006. And I've probably come and gone with it a lot. I've started and stopped, due to various reasons, obviously, life, I've got kids and family and work commitments and stuff like that. But it's always been, I suppose, a hobby. But trying to make that jump or trying to get into it. Full time is obviously difficult for lack of funds or lack of time and effort. I don't know, there's always seems to be something that comes up that stops me from progressing. Having said that, I'm a pretty committed person. I'm pretty disciplined. I've been doing it now for a long time. But like, if you look through him on the table here, I've got trading stuff sitting everywhere, notes. Mark: I've crunched the wheel so many times I've done the shiny diamond thing. I've gone from one program to another. I've spent numerous amounts of funds on various programs and different services such as yourself. I don't know this Option Genius has been around in my life, I suppose, on and off. So I don't know like I've all I'm a big advocate for what you say and what you do. I've wholeheartedly believe that I've been selling options for a long time I've done credit spreads, I've done strangles I've done butterflies, I've done covered calls, I've done a lot of those strategies, or centered around selling options. And I've been doing it for a long time. But for some reason, I just can't seem to break through the ceiling, I just cannot seem to be there to go from this hobby, like training interest that I seem to be involved with, to getting to that next level. I suppose I when I found out that we're going to do this call. Set last night I sat down I tried to write out things that would be good to discuss or to ask you. And I've got like all this paper sitting you have all these notes that I've made, as you would have seen in my email, it was quite lengthy. I think one of the assistants said all that email is probably the longest one I've ever received, that I really okay then.  Allen: Like, you know, because we get, we get lots of emails every day and some people, right? Some people write two paragraphs, but when somebody goes in deep, and they really share their, you know, their soul pretty much. It's like, Hey, I've been doing this and this and this, and this, and I don't know what's going on, then, like we you can feel it when somebody is really, really wanting to make it work. And so those most of those get passed on to me. And when I read it, I was like, alright, you know, we need to we need to talk about this. Because if you've been doing this for years, then like, I have not doing my job. I've let you down in some way that because you know, you shouldn't still be feeling that way. I know. But it's not uncommon. You know, we come across many, many people that come to us and say, hey, you know, I've been doing this for a long time. But you know, it never clicked for me. But you will.. Mark: Yeah, I can see that. So many people that you talk to, you know, have the same they're trying and trying to trying to find the right system, the right setup the right, whatever it is just can't seem like I feel to break through that ceiling. Like you're stuck underneath the water. You're swimming hard. You're learning this, you're watching that you're reading this you're researching. You're looking at the charts to pair with analysis, paralysis, all that stuff. And I've made lots of trades. I've done lots of trading. I've been I've been I won't say successful because clearly we wouldn't be on this call otherwise, but I've made money, but I've also lost money. I've got scars, I've got all that stuff I've had I've had losses, but still here I am battling looking at all that stuff that you talked about in the book in that book really resonated with me there's a lot of stuff in there that I thought I can do this. I know I can do it. Why am I doing it? Why it's just what why does it elude me so much? Is it just a pipe dream and more and more just a duck on the water swimming and just never gonna get there? I don't know. Allen: So you know, when we when we got the email, when they forwarded to me, they asked me like, hey, what do you think the problem is here? Does he not know enough? And my answer to them was No, I think he knows too much. He knows too much. That's part of the problem. I'm just guessing here and I wanted to try to get to the root of it. But you know a lot of the times when so there's there's different things that you need. Everybody needs different things to in order to succeed in anything. Obviously, you know, you need to know what to do you need to how to do it. You know, you have to practice you have to put in the time. You need somebody Do that can actually has doing it like coach that's teaching you, you need a team or a teammate or somebody to do it with. These are all different things that that can help. But a lot of times we come across people that have been, you know, bouncing around from program to program, like you said, they know all the different strategies, they know everything, they know how it works. Some people come and they know it better than I do. You know, so they're, they're telling me that, oh, the Vega this is this and the Gamma and the theta and the row and all this other, you know, they're touching on the Greeks, and they're managing by the Greeks, and they're doing all these complicated stuff. But they're like, it's still not working, why is it not working? So I think, if it can work for somebody else, it can work for you. And I firmly believe that in just about anything, except maybe sports, you know, should somebody else could dunk the ball, maybe I can't dunk the ball. But in trading, a lot of it is I think, 80 to 90% of it is menta. Mark: I've totally, totally, totally. Allen: So there might be something that is holding you back, or, you know, maybe like I don't know, so let's get into it. So now you've mentioned a couple of times that you haven't gotten to the next level. So tell me what is the next level? What is the goal that you're trying to get to? Mark: Well, I think the goal is the same for everybody's, you know, everyone's trying to make income, like, right, I have a I mean, I'm in I'm a cop. So I work in a profession that I see myself coming to a fork in the road. I've been doing this job now for over 14 years, for 10 years. And before that I was in a private industry, we had a family business. So I understand all the dynamics of running a business, how it operates. We had a family business for over 30 years. And long story short, we got out of that for various reasons. And then I got into the government sector, which is a totally different psyche altogether, which took me some time to try and come to terms with. Having said that, I've forever in my wife, and I've come from a family that has been heavily invested in property, shares, businesses, and stuff like that. So I've always had this belief that I can do something with my life that will be able to produce constant income money have investments, like I've had investment properties, and I've done the share thing now on the option things for a long time. And I'm not destitute, I'm not desperate, I have a house, I have three beautiful children and family sort of stuff. But I want to go to the next level I want to be able to provide, I want to be able to teach my kids trading, I want to be able to show them how to invest all the money stuff, like all that sort of thing. I feel as if I'm promoting this stuff, yet, I haven't really truly succeeded myself. I haven't got to the level where they can say okay, Mark, look at you've got all this great stuff, and that show me how to do it. And when they do ask me, I'm sort of thinking so I will not really, I can talk about it. I've read about it, and I'm doing it, but I really haven't got what you think I have. Having said that. Getting back to the trading side of it. I think I want to have this as a business, I can see the potential in it as you can do from home. It's all in front of you in the net. I don't have to go out I don't have to be injured tree. I understand that. I do know a lot about it. I understand all those things you just mentioned with the Greeks and what not right? And I probably do, I probably do know too much. And I do want to keep it simple. I do say to myself, when I'm doing it, just keep it simple. Why do you need to have this indicator? Why do we need to be having that? I totally agree with what you've promoted and talked about for so long. And I think I was probably watching on Option Genius probably before you even started doing podcasts. But over the years, I've come and gone. I've been involved with and I've been with other things. And I've on and off as we mentioned before, right? All right. Does that help answer the question? Allen: No. So what what what do you mean by the next level? Is it an income? Is it is it a certain amount of money in the account is a certain amount of money every month? Where it is it that you say okay, now I've arrived now I have achieved my goal? What what is that number so that you would be able to be like, Yes, I feel happy though. Mark: Okay, so I've sort of thought about that. And I've put a number down to 10k. Now that's a pie in the sky dream. That's a pie in the sky dream. I know. And that's a long way off being achieved. I would just like to be able to see some consistency, all that stuff that you promote consistent, being profitable, and I can do that. But then as you know, you get one or two trades that wipe you out, wipe it back to zero and then it got to start again. Right? So just not we're just not getting that constant. Right? What do they call it.. Allen: Okay, so 10k is the goal. Now, it's not a it's not a it's not a pipe dream. It's so 10k is the goal. If you got 10k every month, you'd be happy. You'd be like okay, I've made it you know I'm accomplishing And that this stuff is actually working. Finally, this stuff is actually working if you were making 10k a month. So tell me, what is it that you think is keeping you from doing that? Mark: Well, clearly a lack of funds at this stage. But I have had numerous accounts where they've had a substantial amount of money in there, but I've just brought it right back down to just doing one lots, until I can see the consistency and seeing that, the, that my trading works, it's consistent, well, then we can scale up. So I'd rather than that, so I'm happy to do just one month a month, which means I'm not gonna make 10 grand in the near future, right, those types of trades, but we can scale that up at a later date. Allen: But what do you so if you were to say, hey, Alan, give me this one thing, and I know I can make tons of money. What is that one thing? Mark: Well, I suppose it's like a business plan, isn't it, like a franchise to follow a step by step thing, do this, do this, do this, do that put it on, obviously, there's a little bit of, there's gonna have to be a little bit of a thought process and feel for the market. But I suppose I need a plan. Like I know how to put the trade on, I know how to do a credit spin on it, for example, but I suppose I need a set of rules or business plan or like something to follow. So that way, I can just follow the recipe for a particular day, not particular strategy, but it's very hard to identify it or pinpoint it down to one thing. Like I've written all these notes in the book and pages and pages of all these things that you're discussing the iPad and whatnot, and try to answer those questions myself. Like, what am I looking for? What's stopping me I've written here a recipe, a plan, a template to follow rules to follow or to abide by tools, treat it like a franchise, for instance. So that way, I'm not deviating to another thing. So I have it on my wall and write down Am I following those particular plans? Does that is that sort of answer the question?  Allen: So do you not have any trading plans right now? I mean, you said you were in different programs and everything so did you do you have any that you've been using as a guideline as a framework? Mark: The cover I've written things down in the past but I suppose sticking to it, or having it visible is difficult. I suppose someone to write one with me or for me to say right this is a trading plan. This is what you need to have in it to follow I suppose I haven't really been given a choice like if it says write a trading plan, write down this stuff, write it down, but I suppose I just want to try it like this is what's going on my head just put the trades on just put the trades on work with the probabilities. Yeah, it should work out. Allen: Okay, and are you conservative or aggressive? Mark: I believe I'm conservative in the sense where at the moment like with the one loss, so like, if I was aggressive, I'd be going right I'm pretty positive this trades gonna work of two or five, or 10 lot but at the moment, it's like let's just hold back and do one more being conservative. I think I can be aggressive if I need to be but on how Allen: And how much percentage return are you looking to make? Mark: I knew you're gonna ask me that question. And I don't actually have a percentage. I've just I suppose a bad way of saying it but I just keep putting the trades on and hope that the probabilities work out so I don't have a particular percentage amount that I've got Okay. When you ask that question Allen: obviously so obviously you know, just putting the trades on hoping they work out that's not working. So we're gonna have we're have to refine this What strategy do you think most appeals to you? Mark: Well, obviously I've been working on the credit spread that's probably the one thing that I've done the most of the credit spreads like I've done in many others, but that's the one that I've probably done the most so in the last few years. Allen: Okay, and are you keeping track record of all the trades that you've been doing? Mark: No, I don't. I have written them down in the past. I do try to follow that put it in a journal, but over time, it just becomes cumbersome I suppose like it's writing it all down. I don't I don't stick to it. It's probably the kind of problem there. Allen: So what you said is you want to franchise, and in the franchise are going to tell you the first thing is to document everything you're doing. Because we cannot tell what's going wrong if we don't know what you already did. So having a firm plan that says okay, I'm gonna put this trade on and writing down why, why am I putting this trade on? Because it's moving higher because it's got news coming out because it's high. It's, you know, very volatile right now or the IV is off or whatever their reasoning is, you put the rig, you put it there, you write the trade, you record what happened, why or why did not work out. And then after you do a whole bunch of these, you can go back and look at it and say, okay, every time I do a trade that's at, you know, 35 Delta, it works wonderfully. But every time I do any other Delta, it doesn't work. So I'm just going to do that 35 delta. So if you want to find your own trading plan, then this is how you do it. Now, this is a long way to do it, it's going to take a long time, because you're going to have to test different things and try different things and see what's working, what's not working. But it would be one way for you to create your own plan based on what you find you're more comfortable in, because some people they come in and they tell me, hey, you know what I want to do Credit spreads, and I want to do 2025 Delta spreads, some people don't want to do five Delta spreads, you know, so everybody's comfortable with different things. And then based on the amount of credit they get, then we can figure out okay, how do we how do we manage the trade, some people should be not managing the trade at all, they should just be getting in and getting out at a certain amount. Some people, they can go ahead and say, hey, my trade is going bad, I'm going to, you know, adjust it or do something else with it. So depending on what we're thinking, when we get in will dictate what we do when we're in the trade. Mark: So now that I know what I do for trades, there are particular entry signals that I looked for, like I don't just go and find a stock and then look up a chain and then play delta and put it on. I do have, like, for example, I think there's market volume, I use volume. So obviously, when volume is increasing, I'll have them put on a put trade, obviously, when the stocks turning or progressing. And obviously over the three averages, like you say, things like that. So there are particular indicators, and not too many I do try and keep it fairly simple, I believe, before I put anything on, so I do try and put the weight in my favor. And the advocate of that, of course, by using those some small indicators to try and get it on sideways or progressing in the in the direction that we think it's going. So I do look at that I'm not a big person, I'm gonna use a 35, Delta, or 45, or whatever. Right? Okay, I understand the Delta side of things. But it's more about volume, I suppose at this stage and what. Allen: Okay, so that that's good to know. Right? So I mean, what I would do is, I probably have a sheet, kind of like a checklist, you know, so get it out of your head, and onto an actual piece of paper, where every single trade you have to mark it off, you know, the volume is high, yes, you know, movement is this way or whatever, whatever your your things are, you check it off. One, two, three.. Mark: I actually have done that I can attest that I have done that I've written down, like when the bar gets lower than the level of bar, it's time to get in or when a turn when it points up. It's getting. So I have written most things down in the past. Yes. Allen: So that'll be your trade law right there. That's if you do if you have the discipline to do that, before you put in the trade, you'll you'll know at the end, okay. You know, just go back to that journal and be like, Okay, what worked and what didn't work? What are the patterns. And that's kind of the stuff that I was doing originally, when I was first starting to figure this stuff out, is look at every single one. And now I have my my checklist, where if there are two or three things that I cannot mark off, I don't put the trade on, because I know that hey, there's not enough, you know, these things are really important. I want them, I don't want to put a trade on without everything checked off. Allen: Now, that doesn't mean that I'm not going to lose, like you still lose on the trade with everything checked off. But like you said, you know, we're putting the odds in our favor. As many times if you have a checklist, like you said you did. That's your journal right there. And so before you put on the trade, you just mark it off, you know, check, check, check, check, oh, I can't check this one. Then later on, after the trades are done, you do 2030 trades, at least, then you can go back and look at and say okay, I lost on these three trades. What is the pattern I lost on these five trades? What is the pattern? And you might find a pattern, you don't have to but you might find something that say okay, these indicators, you know, they're not working or they are working. The other thing is, I mean, it's, it's really simple, right? You find the strategy that you want. And you said, Hey, I found the strategy. Second step is to find the trading plan, that you think you think will work and then is just test it and trade it and do it over and over over again. But the important part is that you have to stick to the plan. Do you think you stick to the plan, or is it? Is it a discipline? Mark: Tell me, tell me, what got you out? I've read your book or listen to your story. What part got you through that ceiling? Obviously, we're doing the same thing as we all do for such a long period of time. But there must have been something that clicked or something that you did or something did you get into? Was it a program for you? Was it someone that you got? Hold on What, what got you to that next level that we all tried to get to? Allen: It took time, it took discipline, there were a few things that really helped me. One was really sticking to the rules that I had set up. And really, it's about, you know, when it comes down to it, it's about putting the trades on with the odds in your favor as many ways as you can. And I learned about that later on, you know, having different different levels. But what I started to do, and the ones that I really started doing well on, and in the beginning, were iron condors. For some reason, that strategy really, really clicked with me. And I was like, Oh, my God, I gotta work. No, no, it doesn't work right now. But he's like, you know, that strategy really worked. And it was like, Oh, I can adjust it. So I might never lose money in the trades. It's just really awesome. But I still was having trouble following the rules. Because, you know, you have to work that. So there were there were a few ways. Number one is my wife got involved. Allen: So every day, she would, like I would have a list of all of my trades, and I would have all the rules, like when I needed to do what, so every day at a certain time, she would come upstairs because I was working from home and she wasn't she wasn't working. So she would come upstairs. And she would ask me, Okay, let's go through every single trade one by one by one. And so she'd be she'd have her notes. And she's, okay, this trade on Russell. Where is it now? And they go, Okay, this, it's up this much money, or it's down this much money? Okay. When are you going to adjust? Well, when this happens? And they said, where is it now? Say, Oh, it's right here. So do you have to adjust it? No, not yet. Okay, cool. Next one. All right. I did this. Okay. Why did you do this trade? And when are you going to adjust it? Should you have adjusted it? Yeah, I should have adjusted already. Why didn't you adjust it? Ah, I don't know. She's like, Oh, what the hell are you doing?  Mark: All that is basically you got your wife involved? Allen: I mean, not just involved, but she was holding me accountable. So I had to answer because she doesn't need to know anything about trading. But she just needs to look at my rules and ask me the questions like, hey, what's the trade doing? Is it up or down? Why have you not? What are you going to do about it? And if there is something to do about it, what are you going to do? So it's just asking yourself those questions every single day. And it helped. I used to do that on my own. But I would always ignore the answers. Because I didn't have anybody to answer to. It's like, oh, I'm a trader, I'm the boss, I make my I'll make the decisions. But when she came in, I knew I had to answer to her. And if I don't have a good reason, then I'm putting her money on the line as well. Right? I'm putting her future on the line as well. So we would have a discussion about that. So I knew in advance, I knew, Okay, she's coming at one o'clock, I need to make sure I got everything right. I'm doing everything right. Otherwise, we're gonna have an argument. And so I needed her. Like, in the beginning, I wasn't, I was I lost a lot of money. And so the only reason that I didn't have to go out and get a job was because she was patient with me. But it was part of it was like, she's going to be the boss, right? Until I turn it around. And until I break the ceiling, she's the boss. She's going to tell me what I can do what I cannot do based on how I'm doing. And so I call that my one o'clock, you know, fire drill. It's like every day at one o'clock, I still do it. I go through every single trade and I look at it and say okay, is this trade up or down? It's up. Okay, good. Allen: What happens if it goes down a little bit? Am I still going to be okay? Yes. Okay, move on to the next one. And so I don't have time to do that on 100 trades. So that's why I limit the number of trades I have. But every day I go in and I look at it and I monitor it I know where each trade stands. So that before it starts to get into trouble, I know and I can look at it and be like okay, this one I need to monitor this one I need to adjust early or this one I need to maybe just exit it because it's not acting right. It's not acting properly. So It kind of gives me you know, so having that while you go in every day and look at each trade, and everybody does that. But in order to you ask yourself the right questions, and then you have to do what you need to do. So just monitoring the trades, and just checking on them is not enough. You have to know, okay, this is my plan, and I have to do this, then you have to stick to it. And then if you have an accountability partner, or if you have a wife or a child, or whatever, if somebody comes in and asks you, hey, you were supposed to do this, well, why didn't you do it? And then you have to answer to them. So when you have somebody else there, that automatically, I mean, that instantly made me better, like instantly, the first day, second day she came in, you know, I just I just started following the rules, because I knew I had to, I had to give her an answer. So that was one of the things that did it. Allen: The other thing was that I realized that this is a long term game. And so you've read the passive Trading Book. So I wrote that book, because I saw that if you're only selling options, eventually, you don't like the options can go against you. So what I mean by that is, in the financial crisis, when we had the financial crisis in 2008, there was everything was just going up and down. And so if I had options on if I trades on those trades lost, and then I could never get that money back. That's when I realized that, okay, you know, if I want to play the long game, if I want to be in this forever, I cannot let something else knock me out. I cannot let a COVID 19 pandemic knock me out, I can't let the financial crisis I can't let you know, the President making some decision and sending the stocks down, knocked me out. And so I started building up the foundation of stocks, and using those to generate capital on those. And the idea is, hey, I want to own the stocks as my foundation. But I want to use options as basically like a rocket ship, you know, so I wanted to boost the returns. So I'm gonna have conservative stuff in the in the main portfolio, you know, where I have the stocks, and I'm making money. Mark: I totally agree with all right. Yeah. Allen: So, you know, that was now Mark: I totally agree with all that, definitely. Allen: So you can't start off that way. Because it takes a lot of money to own that stocks. So in the beginning, you do have to get good at picking one strategy, getting good at it, just following it and being disciplined, and saying, Hey, I'm going to do this, and I'm going to follow it along. Now, again, long term, picture wise, every month, you're not going to make money, every trade is not going to make money. So you have to have that in your in your mindset that, hey, sometimes it's gonna work, and sometimes it's not. So there's lots of lots of little little things that you can improve on it. But the biggest thing that I'm seeing is that you have to follow the plan. Mark: So Allen, do you think that I would benefit? Like I know you're selling plenty of courses, promote what you promote in the book. And I totally agree with all that, I get it on one side. But if I was to do another course, such as yours, I my fear is, and we're just going down that same rabbit holes, as I've done before, hence why I'm confused as to why I can't seem to break that ceiling. If I was to go into a course such as yours, this one that you're the passive trading and whatnot, I worry that I really fear that a year I am going into it again, I'm doing another course. But I understand the strategy. I think now I need more of a coach, maybe I need maybe that one on one, maybe maybe that's what I need. Or maybe there are things that I'm not happy to admit to that I do that I need to be changed. I need to be molded stead of going down this direction on to be heading over in this little bit direction over here with my trading. I understand the why thing. That's a great thing in my voice. She's a great supporter of me. I am trying to I'm trying to get out of work. She works. I'm trying to get her out, keep trying and trying and time is your course gonna sit me on that path to freedom. Allen: So it's like, you know, I mean, I'll give you an example. Like when people go to college, right? They everybody's told go to college, go to college, some people they go to college, and they just they just party the whole time and they don't get anything out of it. Some people go and they study, study, study, study, study, and they get a good job. Some people go and they make lots of contacts, you know, they they meet, they make lots of friends. They meet lots of teachers so that when they get out, they know a lot of people and they have a good network and then that helps them so it's really up to each person individually. Now I would love to say that yes, every single person that takes my course makes them million dollars. But that's not the reality. You know, people come in, life happens, they take it seriously, they don't take it seriously. And, you know, that's, that's one part I cannot control. So I cannot tell you that, yeah, you know what, it's going to work for you just because it's, I'm amazing. And I'm a wonderful person, and it's just gonna work. 90% of it is on you, I can give you everything I know, I can do it with you. But again, the markets have to cooperate. Number one, and then number two, it has to click for you, you have to do it, and you have to practice it. And you have to stick to the plan. A lot of times when people come into my programs, and they tell me Oh, hey, you know, I'm doing XYZ, I'm like, but that's not what I have in the plan. Allen: That's not what I have in the program. They're like, yeah, no, but I'm changing. I'm like, okay, but have you done it my way? No, not yet. But then why did you join my program, you could do your own way. Without my program, you don't need to pay for my program, right? If you're going to pay for something. And if you believe that, hey, yeah, this guy knows what he's talking about this thing works, I think it works. If you're going to pay for it, then just follow that step by step by step and don't change it. Unless it works.  Allen: When it starts working, then only then would you say, Okay, now I'm going to, you know, change it up, because I think I can, I can be a little bit more aggressive, or, hey, I want to be a little bit more conservative, or I want to change it up a little bit. But you don't do that until it's always working. So the problem is that people that have been doing this for a long time, they know all the strategies, they've listened to many other coaches, you know, they come in, and they're like, Well, you know, I don't like that one thing, I'm going to change, I don't like that thing, I'm going to change. And so they start doing it their own way and they don't listen. And so you can't take stuff from this course and this course and this course and mash it into a Frankenstein, and then tell me "Oh, it didn't work?" Well, because I don't know why that guy told you to do that. And I don't know why that other guy told you to do that. Or the only thing I know is if you do it this way, you'll get the similar results that what I'm doing. Now, if you add and change it, then I can't help. So, you know, like you're saying that we have, I think there's like four pillars that I tell people that people need. So if you want to learn how to do something, you need these four pillars. Number one is you need the right strategy, which you've already said is, hey, that's the credit spread, right? Number two, you need the trading plan that works. So number three, is you need other people to do it with because you're doing it all alone, like you said, you know, you might need a wife, if you don't have a wife or partner like that, then you can have a community or other students that are doing it the same way. Allen: And then number four, you need a coach that can actually show you what he's doing, because he's still doing it. And he's actually doing it right now, instead of somebody that said, oh, yeah, I was a market maker 30 years ago, and I don't trade anymore. So I think those are the four things and depends on which everybody needs. So the coaching part is the one that takes the most time. And that's why those coaching programs are the most expensive. Allen: In my passive trading course. You know, we give you the trading plan. It's like okay, here, this is the plan, these are the rules, you follow it and, you know, good luck. But there's no one on one coaching. There's no group, you know, where we are, where we're doing and looking at the trades. And so when we have that passive trading course, it's a cheaper course. And so people would join it, and they would go through the modules. And some people would have a lot of success, some people wouldn't. So I said, What, what's the problem? Why are they not? Why is it not working? And I realized that it would help if they could just spend a lot more time with me. And so we created that credit spread mastery course, where every week, we get on the call, and we're just looking for trades, we're managing trades, we're adjusting trades, doing it together. So the point of that is, here's the rules. Here's the trading plan. Now let's do it together, over and over and over and over and over and over. And so once you have that habit of doing it the same way over and over and over the other, the other ideas, the other habits kind of die off. So I've seen that that program does deliver results. So we back it up and we say hey, look, if you're in our program, and the program doesn't work, like you don't if you're not profitable in our program, then we keep you in the program. We keep working with you. We keep you in the class until you become profitable. And so even if the markets not cooperating That's fine, we'll learn how to manage it together. And then we'll stay longer in the program, if you'd have to be.. Mark:  So with your target trading alum, obviously, it does take a type of market. And obviously, that's why through the last six months with Covid whatnot, it would be easy Earth to do that type of training, because obviously, it just went straight up didn't keep they're still on put, credit spreads the load of was money for Jim, in a market such as what we're in now, which is up and down, up and down. It's far more difficult, isn't it? Allen: Currently it is more difficult, doesn't mean it's impossible. So we do have to dial back our, we have to dial back our expectations. So last year, the year before, you know, making 10% a month, 7-8% a month, not a big deal, it was pretty simple. You know, put the trades on most of them work out in anybody, and everybody was making money. Like any you know, you could buy anything, and it was going up any everyone is making money. This is a market where you have to be really good at selection, trade selection, and management. So you have to know when things are turning around, and when to get out before they get really bad. Allen: So the trade management, sticking to your stop loss is very important right now. And those are things that most people get afraid of, you know, so it's like, okay, I put the trade on, it should work. And then oh, no, the stocks turning around, what do I do what I do, and they don't do anything. So if your thing is part of, if you're doing as part of a group or in a program, then be like, hey, we need to get out, we need to get out, get out, get out. Some people let people know, Mark: There's that mental component, that's the biggest part. And as I've gone along this journey, if all these years, I've realized more so in the latest year, it's not about the strategy. It's not about all that stuff. That mental side of it, it's 80-20, Mark Douglas, the book, the trading zone, I listened to that over and over and over again, and various other podcasts and whatever other things, but trying to pull the trigger when you're in a loss is it wasn't so hard, we put this trade on, it was gonna work a met the probabilities, it was all looking good, it was under the over the top of the averages. I had volume, blah, blah. But all of a sudden, now I'm underwater again. And here we go again, and then I've got to pull a trigger to get out to take that loss. Mark: And I have taken some big losses in the past, I've had to pull the trigger, just recently with the weekly trading system. And when that I mean, there's Solomon says, I've been there for a couple of weeks, again, I've been on and off over the over many years. And all of a sudden, now I'm having to pull the trigger again to get out because we lose money. Like it's hard. It's another scar, isn't it another scar, not a scar, it's another get back down there. You know, I don't want to see you do any good. It's difficult, you know, and that's that mental side of it is arguments or trading? Allen: Yep. The emotions, you know, the emotions have to be kept in check. So there's different ways that you could do that, you know, one, one of the ways is people say that you divorce or divorce yourself from the outcome. So whether you win or lose, doesn't matter make a Mark: ..difference? Exactly what I totally agree with that. And that skill is very difficult. Allen: Yeah, your job is to just follow the plan and stick to the plan. And if you can do that, eventually, over the long run, it'll work out, you know, maybe you have losing trades, that's fine. But over the long run, it should work out. So too much of it, like you said, you know, like, oh my god, I'm, I'm going to be negative again, oh, my God, I'm gonna have to pull the trigger. And oh, my God, you know, when you have that kind of reaction, that compounds and it just makes it all, it makes it much harder to get out of the trade when there is a loss. The other there's one lady, she told me something that really worked for her. She goes, You know what, this is not my money. This is God's money. And what what are you talking about as God's money? She goes, Well, I use this money. And I use the gains from the money to do good. Because they use it for charity work. So she's like, I don't need the money to live. Because I have enough income I have enough. You know, I have I have money coming in that I live off of. But this is my trading money. And so I take the money that I make, and I give it away to charity, and I do good things with it. So it's really God's money, and I cannot lose God's money. There's no way I can lose money. And so if I'm if I'm going negative, that the trade is losing, I get out right away because I don't want God mad at me because it's not my money. So that's another way you could look at it. That you know, again, it's it's taking yourself out of the outcome, you know, and it's not like okay, it's not under my control. So you've got the wife coming in and asking you what you're doing and why it's working or why it's not working and being accountable. You have you know, not looking at the outcome just getting better as a trader, just hey, I need to do my skills, whether it wins or not, that's not up to me. That's up to the market, I can't control that. But I can follow my plan. That's up to me. The other thing is, you know, not looking at it in emotional point of view, like, Hey, this is not my, maybe this is my kid's mind. Maybe this is, you know, God's money, however you want to look at it, but it's not yours. So if you lose it, it's bad. Like, that's the worst thing to happen. You know. So there's, there's three different ways that you can mentally overcome the different obstacles. But again, I think one thing that we haven't talked about yet is to simplify, right? So you've done all the different strategies, and I'm sure, you know, some of it is creeping in. And, you know, it's like, oh, you know, I got to do this, or I'm going to, I'm going to wait for this indicator, or I'm going to wait for these Bollinger Bands, or the Fibonacci, or the technicals, or any of that stuff, the more you simplify it, the easier it becomes to actually follow through with it. And so I think, you know, just one strategy, not chasing after the shiny object, you know, it's like, Hey, make a decision. If it's spread, spreads, and that's the only thing you focus on, and you get rid of everything else, you stopped listening to everything else, you unsubscribe from all the emails, you know, whatever, whatever service that you choose, like, Hey, I'm going to, I'm going to follow this plan, I'm going to, you know, if you've taken a course, maybe you've already taken a course, you have a course that you've tak`en and be like, Okay, I like this course, I'm going to follow this course, we'll get rid of everything else. Just go through it. Master that and don't do anything else until you know what that is, until you get the results that you're supposed to get it. In the beginning, when I started screwing up, like I would learn something, and then I would do good for a little bit and then I would mess up. And then I would do good, then I would mess up. So I was like, What the hell do I do? Well, I would always go back to the basics. I would imagine that I don't know anything. And I would go back to step one. Okay. What is a call? What is the put? What am I doing here? What is the strategy? How am I supposed to put it on? What are the rules and I gotta follow them step by step by step, not like, oh, you know, I'm gonna, I think this stock is gonna go down or or, you know, there's a Fibonacci retracement level, and there's some support here. So I don't have to adjust. No, forget all that stuff. I don't know any of that stuff. All I know, is the strategy and my trading plan. And that's it. And so that was, you know, you go back to the basics. And that will change your mentality of it, like, Okay, how do I manage the trade? How do I deal with this? Allen: Again, if there's other things involved, like stress, you know, if you're under a lot of stress, you're going to make the wrong decisions. If it has to work. If I have to make money this month, from my trades, you're going to make the wrong decisions. It's not going to work out in the long term. So there was a there was something another trick that one of our one of our students taught me. And now everybody can't do this. Most people can't do this. But what he does, is that he takes whatever money he makes trading this year. He will live off that next year. So when he's trading next year, he doesn't have to live off that money. Because he already has the money set aside from the last year. If that makes sense. Mark: You need a big bankroll sounds like a real estate agent. Allen: Yeah, you need Yeah, he was. Yeah, he was. He was a politician. But, um, he has obviously, other people's money then. So I mean, he did have, you know, he had, he had a large account to do that. But eventually, that would be the best thing to do. You know, you have you already know your expenses are covered. Right? Now, you're only focusing on the plan and focusing on on just winning and just trading properly. It's not it takes the emotion out of so whatever you can do, whatever trick you can use to get that emotion out of it, that will make you a better trader. One, one more thing that that that that I've seen is happening to me is, the more you do it, the more of a habit it becomes. So if you do, you know, 50 trades, that's a lot better than five trades, but 500 trades is a lot better than 50 trips, if you do them properly with the right practice. So eventually, you get to the point where Oh, it's just another trade. It's not a big deal. It's just another trade. There's another one coming. So if I get if I hit my stop loss, yeah, it hurts. I hate it. But it's Just another trait, you know, I'm going to move on, move on to the next one, move on to the next one, because every month is a different ballgame. So you start over, you get to start over again and again and again. And so that is another trick that you would help in the long run. But again, you know, you have to, in before all of that happens, you have to have the confidence that this actually works. Mark: So what do I truly do believe in? Allen: Yes, you say that you say that. But then you also say that, you know, I can't do it. It's not working. It's not working. But you, you you've heard it that it works, you want to believe that it works. But I don't think you have that conviction yet that it works. And so the only way to get that conviction is to get it done for yourself. Right? And so it might be that you take a maybe you take a step back, and you go even simpler. And you say you don't want not the credit spreads, how about I do something like maybe a naked put, right, in a naked put, I'm going to make money if the stock doesn't go down. And it'll expire. And then I'll sell another one. And I'll sell another one. And I'm going to sell it far out of the money. So that I just when I just make that 20 bucks, or that $30 or whatever it is that small amount I'm just going to make month after month after month trade after trade I'm going to make and if the stock drops, okay, no fine, I can buy the stock, no big deal, I'll buy the stock. And then I'll sell covered calls on that stock. And so the covered call will expire, and I'll make something the covered call was expired, the next month will expire, and I'll make something so you build up that confidence that you know what, there is a way to do this. That's another option, you know, if you want to go that route, so you really got to figure out like, okay, you know, it's a, it's a personal thing, I wish I could just tell you that, hey, this is the one thing you need to do. But for everybody, it's different. And unless I spent a lot more time with you, unless I see all of your trades, unless I see you know, your emotion, how you handle the emotions, I won't be able to tell you. So that's kind of like in our in our program, what we do is we tell we give everybody a spreadsheet, and we say, hey, look, you have to fill out the spreadsheet, you have to put every single trade on the spreadsheet. And then they shared with me so that I can go in and I can look at them. You know, I could look at the tray. And I'll go in I'll see like, why did he do this trade? This doesn't make any sense to me. And I'm calling this Hey, John, why did you do this tray? Allen: And he goes, well, no, that's not gonna work. And he goes, okay, okay, fine, I'll do it. All right, done. You know, and if they're doing all the trades, right, then it's probably working. And most of the time, it's not working, like if they're not making money, then we can identify, Okay, what are what is not going right? You know, there was one of our current students, he was doing several trades, and he was still negative. So I looked at his spreadsheet, and I'm like, Okay, what's going on? What do I see, and his trade entries were great. You know, he was picking the right stocks, he was doing it properly. But whenever he lost, he would lose a lot more than he should have. He just wasn't getting out early on time. And so that was the biggest thing is like, you're not getting out. This is it, you know, your losses are too big. Doesn't matter how many trades, you win, your losses are still too big, you're still going to be negative. And so we worked on that. And then over time, he got better at getting out earlier and earlier and earlier. But he had, you know, he had somebody to look at that and to point it out, and to hold him to it. So that eventually he did it over and over and over again. And then by the end of the class, he was positive. He was like, Yeah, I fixed it. Again, that's all you need to do. That was he needed that one thing, everything else is simple. The training plan I could give you, you know, you could go do it on your own. But the discipline part of it, that's sometimes where we need help from somebody else. And so whether you know, it might be a wife might be somebody else, it might be a trading partner, somebody you work with, it might be a coach. So I think that might be one thing that you could implement. Mark: So just quickly, what what's the key points in a trading plan make like entry criteria, stop losses or that sort of stuff. Is there anything else that I can many points or rules should be in a trading plan? Like what I try and put a trading plan together, that is doable and simple to follow. To look at rather a complicated bloody list of all this crap, what would be a good trading plan? Allen: So, you want it to be simple and easy to implement. But you don't want it to be too simple, where it's just broad, like anything can happen. So, you know, I've seen people that have a trading plan that says, I'm going to do an iron condor on this stock 45 days to expiration, I'm going to sell a 10 Delta calls and sending out the puts. And that's it. That's my whole plan, and I'm just gonna sit and let it expire. That's a trading plan. It's very simple, right? You know, what you're going to do you know, what you're going to how you're going to do it, you know, what you're going to trade it on. And you know, when. And so now that pretty good plan doesn't work. So whoever's listening don't don't do that one. We've back tested that, and it didn't work. But there are, there are times there are several months where it does work, just because it has, you know, 80% probability, but over time, it doesn't. So that's the basics, you got to know what you want to trade, you need to know the strategy, you got to know what you want to trade. And then you have to know what constitutes a good setup. So when it comes to credit spreads, you mentioned credit spreads. So I like to do that, depending on the size of the of the trade, if it's a you know, maybe a $5000 $10,000 trade, then I'll go into I can go into a stock, or I'll go into an index ETFs are good, too. But they're their strikes are a little bit smaller. So you got to do a lot more contracts. But if I can go into a stock that has, you know, five point spreads, and I do 10 of them. That's a $5,000 trade. That'll work. Allen: So you can, what do you want to trade? And then what's the proper setup? So for me, again, I like to keep it simple. So if I see a stock that's trending, as moving up, or moving down, then I'm happy to trade it. Because I'm, I'm more of a trend follower, you know, so there's people that think, okay, if the stock is gonna go up, it's going up, it's going to keep going up until something big changes, there are other people that think the opposite. They're like, Oh, if it's going up, they just kind of come back down, because it's gonna do reversion to the mean. And sometimes that works. And sometimes it doesn't. So I don't really buy that I just like, hey, if it's going up, then it's telling me that it wants to go higher. So that's basically what I'm looking for. In a setup, I'm looking for the stock to tell me what it wants to do. So if I see a stock that's jumping up and down, no, I don't know what it's doing. I don't know what it's telling me, I can't understand the language, I'm not going to trade it. If it's going up, then I'm going to play it bullish. If it's going down, I'm going to play bearish. And sometimes, you know, it turns around and you get banked, but most of the time it's going to work out. So that's the kind of setup I'm looking for. And then over the years, you know, we've added other things to look at, you know, how do you make sure that all of your trades are not in the same sector? Right now, you know, right now, oil has been doing well. So all of the oil companies were doing great. But then they all turned around and went down all together. So if you have 10 trades on in different oil companies, that's not that's not diversification. That's the same trade. And so if they turn around, I'm going to turn on together. So that would be one way of putting the odds in your favor by having you know, only a small portion of your account in one sector. So you have to separate that. How do you diversify by time? You know, so not putting all your trades on on the same day. That's another way to do it. So you diversify by time. So there's so many different ways that you can do it, some of them might make sense to you some might not. And then, you know, we have other students that come in and say, Well, I do it, you know, I look for this also in my trade, like, Okay, if that's what you want to add to it, then add it. Don't subtract things that I've given you. But if you want to add to it, one student said that he likes to look at the weekly chart, I usually look at the daily chart, see how the stock is doing. He likes to look at the weekly chart as well. Allen: So I'm like, Okay, fine, you can add to it, you know, if it doesn't hit your criteria on the weekly chart, then just means you'll have less trades that qualify, but it's not gonna it's not going to put you into a trade that's going to hurt. So when you're basically you just have to figure out what you think is going to work. And then you have to test it. So back testing, and paper trading are really really, really helpful. Especially back tests, Mark: I find paper trading useless. To be honest. You lose interest very quickly. It's very easy to lose in that type of trading. Yeah, go ahead. I've done a little bit of paper trading and I've just found that I find okay, it's gone the wrong way. But I got it wrong. You just let it go. Because it doesn't mean anything. It has no significance, does it? Start with money trading? Yeah. You've got a connection heavenly with the with the live trading, because actually, it's not your money tied to it. Allen: It's not your money. It doesn't matter what the style of the trade does, you're only focusing on becoming a better trader, the goal is not to make more money, the goal is to become a better trader. Right? It's kind of like playing poker. It's like when you when people go to play poker, right? They'll professionals, they'll tell you that if they play their hand perfectly, and they lose, they're okay with it. Right? If they play, if they mess up, and they still win, they're still mad at themselves. Because I didn't play it right. I didn't play my cards, right? Even though I won, I don't care, because long run, it's going to hurt them. If they keep playing incorrectly in the long term, it's going to hurt them. So that's the goal to become the better trader. And the end results, the profits will take care of themselves. So paper trading is practice. That's all it is. Right? If you didn't need to take that on board. It's slow practice. Back testing, I prefer back testing way better than paper trading. Because you can go really quick. You know, if you if you come up with a plan, like okay, these are my criteria, I got these seven criteria on my trading plan. I'm going to enter when I see this, this and this. I'm going to exit when this happens. I'm going to adjust it this way If this happens, okay, I got that right and down, and that you can even just come up with your you can just guess No, I think this one's good. This one's good. That's my plan. Okay. You pick. You pick a stock, spy. Great, perfect. You go back to yours in time. January 1, put the trade on. How does it do? Oh, it made money. Awesome. Cool. February, how do you do made money? Great. March. Oh, we lost a lot of money. Doing it, huh? Okay. APR, how do you do? And then just do it month by month, I want back testing one month or one trade, you know, might take you five or 10 minutes. And so you can get years worth of practice in just a few days by back testing. And you'll find that Mark: It's something that I've never done is back testing. Is there a particular software that's adequate for that sort of stuff? I've never really looked down that line. I've heard about it. I've listened to it, but I've never actually really done it myself. Is there anyone ticular that would be worthy. Allen: The one that I use, the one that I use is called the option net explore. option that explore? Yeah, and I think I think they're based out of Great Britain. And so basically, it's, it's an options selling platform, you know, so it looks like your broker's platform, you put the trade on, and you go through it day by day by day. And it doesn't do it all for you, you actually have to look at it every single day. And if you want to make changes, you can make changes to it. That's what I like about it. There are other software's that you just put in the strategy, you press a button and it'll tell you "Oh, you made money or you lost money". That's not the point. We want to get better as a trader. Right. And so this one is like, Okay, I put the trade on, click a button. Oh, stock is down today. Do I need to do anything? No. Okay, next stage. Oh, stock is back up again. I don't have to do anything. Next stage. Oh, stock is down again. Oh, no, I'm at an adjustment point. Okay, what adjustment am I going to make? I'm going to do this adjust. Okay, cool. Let's see, did it work out? Go there forward today forward a day forward a day. Oh, expiration day stop. It worked. So it's, it's just, you know, there's no money, right? It's just about becoming a better trader. It's just about getting the practice doing it over and over and over again. So that I think would definitely help you as well. Mark: Okay, so one of the things obviously, we talked about discipline and the mental game, what's probably the best thing to follow, or to train your mental strength, like, as you said, like a paper trade or a live trade, you should be able to make that same decision, then in there without any emotional war. What's the best way to get to that level of trading where you whether you win or lose, it's just business as usual? Allen: Yeah, I've done to you have to divorce yourself from the outcome, whatever, whatever that takes for you. For me, in the beginning, it was getting my wife because I knew how I would have to answer to her. Mark: And scary Allen: I didn't have it. Exactly. It has to be scary. Because if you do it properly, she cannot get managed. Right? It's like, Hey, I followed the rules, babe. I did everything I was supposed to do. It still didn't work out and she'll be like, Okay, fine. That's no problem. But if you do not follow the rules, that's when she gets manage. And that's when it gets scary. So yes, you have to make it scary for you not to follow your rules, because a lot of us a lot of US traders, like, if we lose money, yeah, we don't we get mad about it, we're like, oh, man, I lost money, we feel bad about ourselves. But it doesn't hurt enough. You know, it's kind of like these people that say, Hey, I want to lose some weight. You know, so they make a goal, I'm gonna lose some weight, I'm gonna lose some weight, they tell everybody, and they do it for a few days, and then they give up. But then there's this website, that what, what this website, basically what it does is, you have to pick a, maybe a political party, or a person or some organization that you hate, you actually hate them. And you have to put up a lot of money and say, Okay, if I don't stick to my goal, this organization is going to get $5,000 or $10,000. So that makes you because it's now becomes a different level. It's not about just the money, or about doing the thing. It's like, okay, you know, let's say, for example, I don't want to give my money to anybody like the Save the whale Foundation, right? I don't want to, I don't want to give my money to the whales, I hate whales, I want them all to die. I don't want anybody to save the whales. So if I don't lose 10 pounds, they're gonna charge my credit card $5,000 and give it to the whales, and I hate whales. So I want to do whatever I have to do to lose that money to lose that weight. You know, because I don't want that well to be saved. You have to want something more than what you have. So there's, that's another psychological trick. No, in trading? We sometimes we get used to it, you know, it's like, oh, last? Oh, well, you know, we get used to it. And it just, we gotta it's just the mental part of it. Mark: Definitely, definitely, it's a huge part of it. Something I didn't I didn't realize, until much later down the track of trading, how big a part of mental side of it really is. Allen: I mean, if you find trying to avoid is difficult. Yeah. So if you find yourself having a problem with discipline, make it simpler, cut it down, make it as simple as possible. Find the trade that you know will like you know, the naked call or the naked put the covered call, these are very simple trades, they're really hard to mess it up. Right? On the naked put, if you get assigned the stock, hey, that's great. I just bought the stock much cheaper than it was before. And I'm going to own it. So you want to you want to do it on companies that you're going to own you want to own for a long period of time. That's the only way it really works. You can't you can't be selling naked puts on stocks that are just, you know, going crazy. That's the wrong way to do it. So you know, if you can simplify it, if you can find some way to have somebody else monitor you, and hold you to your fire, you know, hold your feet to the fire like, hey, you need to follow this, why aren't you doing this? Or, hey, it's not my money. Right? I'm doing it for somebody else. This is my kids inheritance, right? I cannot mess it up. So I have to follow the rules. One guy, when I was in, just after high school, I became an agent, a real estate agent. And as an agent, as a brand new agent, they tell you that you have to do a lot of things that you don't want to do. You have to talk to hundreds of people all the time, you have to cold call, people say Oh, Hi, are you doing? Do you want to sell your house? Oh, hi, do you wanna say, Well, you know, they have to keep doing things that you don't want to do. So it was like, okay, in the guy, the guy is like, hey, most of you guys are not going to do it. But if you want to be really, really, really motivated, what you need to do is go out and buy a fancy sports car. Sounds like what you're talking about, what do you do a fancy sports car? Because yeah, you need to go out and buy an expensive sports car so that you have that payment that you have to make at the end of the month. And so that is going to make you work your butt off because you have to make the payment. And as I go I mean, I understand what he was saying. I was like, No, I'm not doing that. But then eventually I didn't make it as a realtor. Maybe if I did do that, maybe I just didn't do the work that he told you to do. I just didn't do it. It wasn't the reward wasn't worth it for me. Mark: It was up to risk, I suppose. Yeah, Allen: I mean, you know, so with your training, you got to figure it out. Is it really worth it? Is the goal that hey, I want to quit my job. Is it I want my wife to quit her job. I want the kids to have this vacation or whatever it is. You have to burning. Yes, just eat you up every single day. You have to really really, really want it Mark: Explain to me how and it's burning me. Allen: Then the discipline has to stick. Because if you want it, but you're not disciplined, and your losses are too big, then it's it's not there yet. So I think, you know, if you don't have a trading plan, I'll just give you the training. You know, I mean, it's not that hard. It's not it's, it's the training plan helps. But it's up here. And it's the practice just doing it over and over and over again and having confidence in the plan. Because then if you have confidence, you'll stick to it. If you don't have confidence, you're going to change it, you're going to you're going to add things to it, you're not going to follow it, you're going to forget about it. Like with the paper trading, that's exactly what that is, you know, so it's not real. So, oh, well, I'm gonna ignore it. I'm gonna forget about I'm gonna do that.  Allen: That really resonated with me Allen's that that point, like, go back to the paper trading, treat it like it's somebody else's money, and then make it work. Don't look at it as just as being as a fake account, that doesn't matter. Allen: I mean, I wouldn't Yeah, I would prefer you do back testing, it'll be much faster. Mark: To look at that I'll get, I'll get onto that particular site that you've made. Yeah, Allen: That'll give you years of experience in just a few days. And so, to me,

Mark Cronin '80 and his son John Cronin join Maura Sweeney '07 to speak about how they came to found John's Crazy Socks. A serial entrepreneur, Mark passed along this passion to John.  In the spirit of Holy Cross, theirs is a company created to do good.  Through John's Crazy Socks they are living their mission to “spread happiness,” while also serving as advocates for workplace equality and voices for people with differing abilities. Interview originally recorded on March 17, 2021. Due to the ongoing effects of the pandemic, all interviews in season 2 are recorded remotely. --- Mark : It's the nature of the social enterprise, you've got to have a mission. You can't be, we just want to make money. It's got to be something larger than yourself, an impact you want to have on the world. And when you're driven by that, it's so motivating. All the petty stuff falls away. And that's how you can go and connect with people. We get asked, what's the key ingredient? What skill? A lot if it is just belief. If we have a mission to spread happiness, just believe. Maura : Welcome to Mission-Driven where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. Maura : In this episode, I speak with Mark Cronin from the class of 1980 and his son, John Cronin. Mark and John are co-founders of John's Crazy Socks. A company whose mission is to spread happiness, where over half of the employees have a differing ability. An entrepreneur at heart, Mark has been creating opportunities and organizations ever since his days at Holy Cross. From creating The Lunchbox Theater as a student, to running political campaigns, to founding a software company, his career path shows what can be done when you pursue an idea. Maura : Every step of the way he's been driven by mission. And every step of the way has prepared him for his role at John's Crazy Socks. Our conversation focuses a lot on the incredible work that Mark and John are doing through John's Crazy Socks, to raise awareness about people with differing abilities. They live the motto, to whom much has been given, much is expected, and they do it well. We are lucky to have people like Mark and John working hard to improve the lives of millions of others, because it's not just the right thing to do, it's also good for business. Maura : Mark and John, it is really wonderful to be here with you today. How are you today? Mark : Pretty good, right? John : Pretty good dad. Mark : Life remains interesting. Maura, thank you very much for having us on. Maura : It is my pleasure. It is my pleasure. I have been really looking forward to talking to you about Mark, about your career journey and John, about how you came to help co-found John's Crazy Socks, and the incredible work that you're doing together to really make a difference for people with differing abilities out in the world. Before we get to that, and before we get to John's Crazy Socks, because I could go down a rabbit hole there. First, I'd love to know more about you and your family. I know that you're both New Yorkers. Have you always lived in New York? Mark : So, we live in a town called Huntington on Long Island. I tell the story about that with John. He sometimes laughs at me about this. So, I grew up here on Long Island in part of Huntington, Huntington Station, and when I was 19, I set out for the world. I was leaving and I'm never coming back to Long Island. So in 1997, by that point we had three kids. Our eldest was in first grade and we had moved several times. And if you move two blocks with a little kid, their world turns upside. So we said, we'll buy a house and we'll stay in one place until you get out of college. And we wound up buying a house in Huntington Bay in Huntington, not out of college, out of high school. We said, we'll stay here. And there were a few times where boy, all I wanted to do was travel and move. Mark : There was one point I had this interesting opportunity in Hong Kong, and I sat the family down and I gave them a pitch and they all listened and they nodded and they said, "Dad, that sounds great. And why don't you send us a postcard when you get there, because we're not going." But then, so our two elders, they get up and leave and John, he got an extra three years of high school, but now he's in his final year of high school and I'm thinking, and my wife, Carol is also a Holy Cross grad. We're thinking we can move. We can relocate. Mark : Even after starting this business, we thought you could run an online business from the moon. We could go anywhere. Well, the good news is the business took off faster than we expected. So, we started with a three-year lease and now we have a bunch of employees, and I am going to die on Long Island. I'm not getting away. Maura : No. Well, and I can tell too, just from what I've seen in just the different media footage and the stories about the way you run John's Crazy Socks, is it's also a community organization. Mark : We think about community a lot, we think about the community here. I'm always wary of businesses that say, we're like a family. I don't know about that. But we're building a community there. We think about the community that we're building around here, our customers and supporters. But we also think about the local community and you've got to be good citizens. You got to be engaged in their community and giving back and involved. So, there is a lot of things we do, and that's important to us. Maura : Well, thinking about community and thinking about Holy Cross, because you're an alum from the class of 1980, I know community is a huge part of someone's time at Holy Cross. I'd love to hear about your days on the Hill and what brought you to Holy Cross from Long Island. Mark : So, a different day and age. Okay. I'm getting out of high school in 1976 and I really knew nothing. I didn't really know anything about looking at schools. At a college fair, I got a booklet that seemed interesting. I applied to three schools. I really applied to two. I applied to Holy Cross and Boston College. A third school came in and started recruiting me for football but by that point, I wasn't thinking of playing football. I got in both Holy Cross and Boston College, and was going back and forth. I didn't really know how to choose. So, Boston College had me up for a weekend with a group of students and they greeted us saying, we think you want the leaders of the class of 1980. Mark : And as soon as I heard that, I was like, well, I don't want to come here. If you think I'm one of your leaders, you're in trouble. So, I wound up at Holy Cross and there were a few points. Freshman year, where I was like, I don't know if this is really the right place. I thought of leaving, but once I made the commitment to stay, well, then you're all in. And like most things, the more you put in, the more you get out. And I was thinking, I just sent a package of socks to a guy named Father Carlson, who was my freshmen advisor. And I took him for a survey of Greek lit, but I was particularly thinking of one moment, just a small moment that altered the course of my life. Mark : It was sophomore year, second semester, sophomore year. And he called me in his office. I was trying to think, how did he get me? There was no email, there was no text. But he had me come into his office and he sat me down, and he was the head of the honors program. And he gave me a picture he said, "You should really apply for this." I was like, "Me. Nah." That's not how I thought of myself. I could talk. I was a pretty serious student, but I did a lot of other things too. I didn't do a lot of sleeping. Mark : I walked out of there and thought, oh. I still, I'm not very... I'm kind of... Not counting on it... To inviting you to an honors program. I was really not very smart because I'm thinking, well, I still don't have a chance. Not even thinking well, the head of the program asked me to do this. So I apply and got in the program. And now I spent my junior year at Trinity College in Ireland. Mark : But among the other little things, you got to take the seminars and it was so wonderful. So I took a seminar in non-Euclidean geometry with a guy named, I think his first name was Ted. Ted Cecil, math professor. It was just wonderful. Blew my mind of opening up the world and different ways of thinking. And I could tell the story a little bit, but on graduation, I wind up teaching math and religion. And first question was, did you study any math in college? Yes, I studied non-Euclidean geometry. Mark : And I got to spend a year working with Bob Cording, writing a thesis on a book-length poem by Galway Kinnell, called The Book of Nightmares. And I had met Galway because he was a visiting writing instructor, actually for the Worcester Consortium. So, I was able to take a poetry workshop with him when I was a sophomore. But to spend a year engaged in writing, I learned how to read, I learned how to write. It was so wonderful. Mark : So, just that experience and the confidence it gave me and helped me, it challenged me to think, you're really not that much of an idiot. But then jump ahead a couple of years, I'm bouncing around doing different things. I'm working for a Congressman in New York and I want to get into public policy, public affairs. He's advised me to go to law school. So I apply to some law schools, and I get something in the mail from the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard. And I read it and say, "This is what I should do." Mark : So, I apply there and I get in. Later, I served on the Admissions Committee at the Kennedy School and realize how the heck did I get in? And I know the crucial factor was, I was in the honors program and Holy Cross. So for some reason, Father Carlson took that time to call in this knucklehead and say, "You may want to do this." And in that way, it was just a conversation, but it had this impact on my life. And I'm 62 now and it's still blooming, and those are special moments. Maura : Well, and that's one of the things that I really enjoy is I get to have conversations with alums like you in this podcast, is to hear how many times individual people reaching out and knowing you as a person has a tremendous effect. And the fact that Holy Cross is small and allows people to get to know you and to see something in you that you didn't recognize in yourself at that moment. Mark : There were things you got to do. Some of this was day and age. So late seventies, there was so much freedom. My sophomore year, I realized that we were at this giant buffet table and it was all you could eat. You could get whatever you wanted. And so at the time, you would take four courses each semester, but you weren't limited to that. So I saw it as, well, naturally I'll take a fifth. I don't have to pay more. And then I would find out and sit in on other classes, then I would find out if you didn't see a class that you wanted, you could just make one up. Now I know Independent Studies, but that wasn't structured then, so sophomore year went to John Mayer, who was the chair of the English Department, and he taught myself and my two housemates a course on Bob Dylan, which was awesome. Maura : That's great. Mark : I remember mentioning it to my parents saying, "I'm taking a course on Dylan," and they were like, "What are you doing?" But it was awesome. Or senior year, my girlfriend, now my wife, we were college sweethearts. So she started on a course, which is not unusual at Holy Cross, of a bio pre-med and quickly wound up as an English major. But now, in senior year and she's got to make up some of her English credits. She's not seeing a lot, she can fill it up, but she needs one more course. We'll just find one. Mark : And I'm like, "Who are some of your favorite authors?" And she hits on Joseph Conrad. I said, "Great. We'll get a class on Conrad. You and I, we'll go do this." And she goes, "How are we going to do that?" "Don't worry." And so, Pat Bizzell in the English Department approached her and she said, "Sure, this would be great." So the two of us would read a book a week, and then we would meet with her, and how awesome is that to be able to have and go and do those things. There were a lot of things like that, but it's also, there were other things that were more extracurricular. Mark : So, sophomore year around Christmas, I read Tom Wolfe's Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test about Ken Kesey and the Merry Pranksters. And they would have what you would call today, a rave. And I'm reading this with the house band, The Warlocks, which changed their name to be the Grateful Dead. I'm reading this and I'm like, I would love to go to something like that. But what do I know? So then decided we'll have our own, and went off and did things, which now I look back like, wow, that was pretty good. I got a group of people together, today we could call a board. Everybody put money in, we sold tickets. We bought some things that we resold. I won't go into that even if the, what do they call it? The standards, the laws say that they can't arrest me anymore. And we had this three-day party with bands. It was just wonderful because you could go do that. Like again, different day and age. Mark : That year, I'm sleeping in Beaven, and every Wednesday night we had a cake party where we would charge money, and $1 would go to buy the cake for the next week, and 1$ would go towards this three-day party. So, I was learning to be an entrepreneur and then repeated it at a different level senior year. I came back from Ireland, wanted to do something and we created something called The Lunchbox Theater. During the lunch hour, we would put on plays and poetry readings, and concerts, and just had a blast doing this. And I'd run around and line people up and get people to agree to stage a play. What great fun. And we could go and do it. No one was going to stop you, and that it was encouraged and that was great. Maura : Well, and I can see now why you didn't sleep at all? Mark : No. Between that and work. I had a professor, Brendan Kenelly at Trinity College who would say, you go to university to find out what you don't know. And I didn't know. Eventually Father Carlson before, so I'm taking this Greek lit class freshman year, and now we come on to our first blue books, and I was in Carlin, which then was primarily a freshmen dorm. You could feel the stress level rising. And I'm like, well, I should be worried. I should do something. And that's when I realized I had no idea how to study. I had no idea how to take notes, no idea how to study. I didn't know really what to do. So I stayed up all night, re-read The Odyssey and The Iliad and I showed up with no sleep, but it's all fresh in my mind now. A lot of it, because I was so unsure of myself and insecurity that gets flipped sometimes as bravado. Mark : I remember it was a Bob Cording class sophomore year, and okay, different time and age, and I am ludicrous. It's a 10:30 or an 11 o'clock class and small class. I think everybody was a senior, I'm the only sophomore in the class. And I'm showing up in my bathrobe, sitting in the back of the class. And he turns, he hands out the first paper, and Bob was so diligent and detailed notes, but very demanding. Hands this out and he announces to the class, "I'm really disappointed and they're poor. And I'm telling you now, you're going to have to rewrite these." Because the highest grade, there were like two Cs and everybody else got a D. And I'm thinking, what the hell? People are slumping. He says, "But was one paper that just hit the mark and I'm going to read it to you." And he starts reading it. And all the people, I'm like several rows back from everybody, they're all looking at each other because they all know each other. Is that yours? Is that yours? Slowly they realize it's the freak in the back of the class. Mark : Again, it was somebody, Bob coming to me and saying... It's a lesson I had to keep learning. Don't be a fool. You can do things and now that becomes an obligation. You got to make something of that. Plus, there's friendships. I was texting last night with a buddy of mine from Holy Cross. We're still close. For a long time at that house that I mentioned, we would have like 25 people come down for president's weekend, bringing their families. We had this at a mini reunion. My wife, Carol, during the pandemic at six o'clock every Tuesday night, there's a Zoom call where they call themselves the Carlin Girls. They're in their sixties. They're not girls, but they do a Zoom call and they'll get 20 people in it. And every five years, they take a trip together and they go to Miami, or I guess, The Bahamas they've been to, all because there's this rich connection that was made at Holy Cross. Maura : It is. It's a special, my best friends in the world are from Holy Cross. It is, it's a special time, and it's nice when you can make those connections. It's amazing to see them last. Mark : And there's something about the Jesuit Mission and the liberal arts that always has you asking, inquiring and asking for more. It directly feeds into the business we have, which is a social enterprise. We have a social mission, and where do you get that from? Well, you get it from some of the activism and some of the yearning that was instilled in me in college. Maura : Well, and it seems like, looking at your career, from Holy Cross, you mentioned the Kennedy School, and then fast forward to today with John's Crazy Socks. It seems like, and I'd love to hear from you, but it seems like there's this thread of entrepreneurial-ism and mission and 'striving for the more' that seemed to be woven throughout your path. Mark : I look back and I guess I've always been an entrepreneur. I didn't always have the language to use it, but early on, everything and again, I didn't always necessarily have the language, but everything was mission-driven. So, I got out, I taught school for two years. Pure happenstance that I did that, I went to graduate school for literature. I was in a doctoral program and I'm sitting in there, sitting in a class the day the US invaded Grenada. And I don't know if people remember. It was this tiny island and we had to go rescue medical students. It was crazy. And I'm like, I should be doing something. So that's how I got the job at the Congressman. I showed up at his office and said, "I want to work with you." They said, "Well, we don't have any jobs." "That's all right. I'll volunteer. I just want experience." Mark : We move into a community and you'd connect. I can remember when we moved into Greenpoint, Brooklyn, we were early hipsters. It was before it boomed, and through the church and we set up a food bank, we set up a clothing depository. We work with the local recycling program to set something up, because you go and do that. I spent much of my career in the healthcare field. I wound up running the Medicaid health service program in New York City, and then ran a series of companies that were trying to figure out, how do you better deliver healthcare to the poor? How do we better organize care? Mark : But some of that Holy Cross thing was always there of the liberal arts and how do you pursue that mission and those values and still be carrying things out? But that wide interest, it fueled a lot. I started a software company. I ran political campaigns. I did a fair amount of writing. I published some of my less than really terrible fiction. And even this enterprise, we've now been doing this for four years, but people would say, well, when did you get into it? How long have you worked in retail? How long have you been in the sock game? Got no background in it. But I'm 62 today, everything I have done has prepared me for this moment. Everything I have done in my life has prepared me for this interview. Maura : Well, and that is the perfect segue to pull you into this John too, and to talk about John's Crazy Socks, and talk about the incredible work that you are doing. Because you're making a lot of change and you're doing a lot of good in the world through this company. Mark : We're very fortunate, but what are the two things you always talk about? John : Try to do for others. Mark : Try to do for others. It sounds trite, but the more we can do for others, the better off we are. We're living a dream. We get to do what we want to do. We have no excuses. We can't blame it on the board. We can't blame it on headquarters. And it also speaks to the way we run the business and our appearance. One of the internal ambitions, and I've always wanted this to be a way, I want this to be a great place to work. I want people to love working here. We work at that and you make that happen, and that runs through... What's our overall mission pal? John : Spread happiness. Mark : Spreading happiness. Well, you got to start at home and people got to be happy, and you have to understand it can't be lip service, it's got to drive through everything you do. So, here's an easy way. When it comes to customer service, you heard the old saw, the customer is always right. Nonsense. The customer can be damn wrong. But we're not in the business of being right. We're in the business of making customers happy. So, we don't limit any time that people spend with customers. People that work with our customers know they can spend 200 hours on any customer, at any time, doing anything they want, just go and wow that customer. Mark : We had something last week. Somebody had ordered something they said they were going to pay by check. That's pretty rare, somebody say they pay by check. And what our folks did was they said, "Okay," but they didn't fill the order until the check arrived. And when they did, it was an item we had sold out. So we sat and I said, let's think about this. First, in four years, maybe we've received 15 checks. It doesn't happen. Every time somebody says, they're going to send us a check, they send us a check. So, why not just live in a world where we trust people. And as soon as we get the order, we ship it out and trust that we're going to get the check. And my colleagues are looking and saying, "Can we do that?" "Why not? We can do whatever the hell we want to do." Mark : And they were like, "Well, what if people do this or that?" I said, "Nobody does that. Would you do that? So why don't we just treat people that way?" And it's so easy. And wouldn't you rather live in that world? Maura : Yes. Mark : Now, if we get burned, if all of a sudden people are fake, but it doesn't happen. We doing the same thing with our returns. You don't have to send us anything. Just let us know. If there's any problem we're going to replace it. We're going to give you your money back. We want to make you happy. What results of that? Well, if we treat you that way, you tell other people. Aren't people happy, because we're not going through stuff. We're just trying to make you happy, and our return rate last month, our refund rate was 0.6%. Businesses would kill to do that. We give away anything we can. Maura : Well, and I know that the origin story, if you will, of John's Crazy Socks is out there for people to read and to watch. But I'd love to hear from you about that moment, because I talk to so many people who dream of starting their own business. Who say, someday, I'd love to do this, but there's a very small percentage who actually do it. So what sparked that courage to really go and make this happen? Mark : Well, first of all, it is, again, it's much simpler than you think. Worst thing that happens is, you fail. And you go on. But ours grew out of a specific situation, this particular business, and origin stories matter. Because you take your DNA and they run through everything. So ours, it's the fall of 2016, and where were you buddy? John : I'm in school dad. Mark : Which school? John : Huntington High School. Mark : So, he's in Huntington High School in the states, and this is across the country. You can remain in high school until you either graduate or turn 21. If you have a disability, you can stay until you're 21. So this was going to be John's last year at school. Like everybody else, he's trying to figure out what do I do next? What are you looking at? John : I looked at shop programs in school. Mark : See anything you like? John : No, I never saw anything I liked. Mark : Well, the answer is, there's not a lot of great choices. John grew up in a household where he saw me starting different businesses and running things. And I'd like to say he's a natural entrepreneur, because he did things like that himself in school. I remember showing up at his summer school, we've got a summer program, and came into some and the principal came out and said, "I want to talk to you about John." And that was always good. Particularly my middle guy, Jamie, the principal comes, wants to talk to me, that's not good. That's the same way with me. But with John, okay. Well, it turned out John wanted to run a talent show, and he organized a talent show at the school. Never mentioned to me. He didn't think why I have to ask permission, I just go and do this. Mark : So, he doesn't see anything he like, the natural entrepreneur doesn't see that as a problem, but as an opportunity. So what do you tell me? John : I want to go into business with my dad. This is my idea. Mark : I was starting some online businesses. He comes and tells me that, it's like, okay, let's go do this. And traditionally, what you do in a business, once you get the idea, is you stop everything to prepare a business plan. Work out your competitive analysis, your market research, your operational projections, financial projections. We did none of that. We went what's known as the lean startup route. We were bootstrapping. Let's just get something up and running. I've worked with venture capitalists before and done that. We didn't want to do that. Just get something up and running. And he's the perfect partner because he just believes, of course this is going to work. Maura : Why wouldn't it? Mark : Why wouldn't it? And so much of what we've been able to do is why not? So, I'll let you know on something that's coming up on March 30th. This is top secret information. On March 30th, we're going to introduce our unity socks, which are blue socks with American flags on them. We want them to symbolize inclusivity and unity, and we get this idea. We want to give them to every member of Congress. So on March 30th, we have two local congressmen coming, a Republican and a Democrat, to help us introduce these socks, and we're going to give them to every member of Congress. We've already been invited to come up to Albany and do it in the New York State Legislature. And we see ourselves that we can go across the country, just symbolizing look what's possible. Have John be handing out these unity socks. What a wild, ridiculous idea and yet, okay, who's going to stop us? Maura : And yet it's so perfect. What a perfect idea. Mark : And it just grows. Not every idea is a good idea. We have bad ones. We do a lot of presentations. Right before this, we were speaking virtually to a school in New York City. Last week, we got a question from a high school student, need to ask permission from to do these things. It's like, no, that's part of the power. You don't have to ask anybody for permission. Just go and do and come back to... It's the nature of the social enterprise. You've got to have a mission. Mark : You can't be, we just want to make money. It's got to be something larger than yourself, an impact you want to have on the world. And when you're driven by that, it's so motivating. All the petty stuff falls away, and that's how you can go and connect with people. We get asked, what's the key ingredient? Which skill? A lot of it is just belief. If we have a mission to spread happiness, just believe. So when you ask on the origin story, okay, we'll find a way forward and we'll go test it. And it turned out it went well, right buddy. Maura : Well, I think even more than just believe, you talked about wanting to make a great place for people to work. And I think that the fact that you care about your employees, and you care about the people, both who work with you and who you serve, that is another really big piece. Mark : It's all the whole. So yes, our mission is to spread happiness. You do that by hiring people with differing abilities and showing what they can do, by giving back and by making personal connection with our customers. When it comes to this workplace, one of the things we're trying to share with other employers, hiring people with differing abilities is not altruism. It's good business. And what do we see? Morale is way up. Productivity is high, retention is through the roof and it helps us recruit. And it makes for a better workplace. You think the benefits would mainly accrue to the people with differing abilities, but everybody is better off and everybody is happier. Mark : But I've worked over the years into, in essence, a formula on employee engagement. One, you have to start with a mission in which people can believe. It's got to be something greater than ourselves. It's got to be something that can matter. Two, everybody has to know how they fit into the mission, how their job matters. There's no leg work. There's no, I'm just a cog in a machinery. Yes, our webmaster knows, but our sock wranglers, that's what we call the pickers on our pick and pack warehouse, they know their job matters. Mark : Three, put people in a position to succeed. Don't ask them to do what they can't do. Give them the tools. If they need a special chair, get them a chair. If they need a software tool, a webmaster needs some analytical tool, get that for them. As a manager, you have to be a leader. And in doing that, what you have to make clear to people is, I work for you. My job is to put you in a position to succeed and if you have problem, if you have a limitation, my job is to try to help remove that limitation. Mark : Four, recognize what people do. People care. It's as simple as saying, thank you. I saw you doing this. What you do matters. We value. And then the last, stay the hell out of the way. Let people do their jobs and they will thrive. But some of this comes down to, it's like a Christian thing. Do unto others, treat people the way you would like to be treated. If you treat people poorly, they will respond that way. If you treat people that I don't trust you, so I have to manage and inspect and micromanage, they will respond in kind. Maura : Well, and I know that you've had a lot of opportunities to spread this message. I recently saw that you joined this CEO Commission on Disability Employment. And I know when we've spoken before, you mentioned going before Congress in the past. Mark : We've been very fortunate. We've had a fair amount of media coverage. We've had some viral experiences, and we go out and basically proselytize. John, you love the speaking engagements, right. John : Yeah. I love speaking engagements. Mark : So yes, we've done things. We've testified twice before Congress, we've spoken to United Nations. We're part of the State Department Speakers Bureau. So they had us take a little speaking tour in Canada. We didn't get tour T-shirts made up, next time we will. And yes, we're on the CEO Commission for Disability Employment. And I laugh. This was founded by Voya Financial and the Society of Human Resource Managers. How are we on this? Like, we're on this National Autism @ Work Roundtable with IBM and Microsoft and Ernst & Young and Warner Brothers, and John's Crazy Socks? Mark : We appreciate the opportunities and you could go back to Rome and find this motto, and you can see it with the Kennedy's and with Spider-Man. To those who are given opportunities, come great responsibilities. So I'll give you an anecdote on that. We're down on Capitol Hill, and we get a phone call here in New York in the office, from a customer in Houston who says, "I see that John and Mark are on Capitol Hill. My mother works there. She's a big fan of John's, would it be possible for them to meet my mom?" Person says, "Sure. Here's Mark's cell phone. Just text him your mom's name and contact information and he'll do it." Who's mom? Nancy Pelosi. Mark : So now, we get an audience with Nancy Pelosi and forget about right wing, left wing. We vilify our politicians too often, or deify them. They're just people. She's a grandmother. She comes in, her eyes light up seeing John, and she brings out pictures of socks that she gave former President Bush, because John had become a sock buddy with former President Bush, George H W Bush, where they exchanged letters and socks, and all this is great. We take photos, but now we have this opportunity that creates an obligation. Mark : So it's yes, but Ms. Pelosi, we have to talk about some other matters. One, we have to talk about repealing section 14(c) of the Fair Labor Standard Act of 1938, great piece of American legislation. It created the 40 hour workweek, it eliminated child labor, it created overtime. But it allows employers to pay people with a disability less than minimum wage. So, there are 400,000 people being paid as little as five cents an hour. And we are grateful that we have this opportunity, but we are now going to take advantage of this. Mark : I'll give you a recent one where, despite our best efforts, we contracted the COVID virus, John, my wife and myself. And for Christmas, we gave John a hospital stay. He was admitted on Christmas Day, it was dicey for a few days. People say it's nothing, it's just the flu. Now very healthy, got out eight days later. So, we held an event at the hospital because we know we can attract media attention. So we went back to the hospital and you got to thank everybody, right? John : I did. Mark : But we also used it to do two other things. One, to raise awareness about the risk that people with down syndrome face, they're not more likely to get the virus, but if they do, five times more likely to be hospitalized, 10 times more likely to die. So, we want to get that word out. The other thing, the hospital let me stay with John the entire time, even when he was, because things went bad for a day or two. When they moved him to the critical care unit, they let me stay. Now, Federal Regulations require that people with a disability, that they get access to their caregivers. That's not the way it's practiced, particularly during COVID. So, we wanted to highlight look, this is better for everybody. That there's always a little medicine with the sugar. Mark : So, we keep driving that mission and you can't separate the two. We'd like to make money, we'd like to live indoors, like to pay the rent. And if the business doesn't succeed, then we'll go home and all this stops. So you got to make that happen, but like the giving back. So, we baked into it from day one. We donate 5% of our earnings where? John : Special Olympics. Mark : Special Olympics. Why the special Olympics? John : I'm a Special Olympics athlete. Mark : And then we've created a whole series of products that celebrate causes and raise money for charity partners. So the first one was a down syndrome awareness sock, raises money for the National Down Syndrome Society. But more recent ones, an EMT tribute sock raises money for a local EMT squad. Last April, we wanted to thank people. We introduced healthcare, superhero socks, and they've raised over $50,000 for frontline workers. Mark : And there have been different points when very smart people have said to me, you're not making money. What are you doing making these donations. But we wouldn't have the business we have if we weren't doing that. Willingness for the long haul. So, among things that are really cool, our little business we've raised over $400,000 for our charity partners. Maura : That's amazing. Mark : John here is a special Olympic athlete, who's raised over $100,000 for the special Olympics. We make sure everybody who works here knows they're all philanthropists. It's very cool. We're so fortunate. So in the end, we are these knuckleheads running a sock business and this is a small business, and all we want to do is change the world. How much fun? Maura : And you're doing it too. That's the incredible thing. Is even if it's in small ways, as you showed all of these donations, one pair of sock here, the one conversation there, it's changing hearts and minds. Mark : That has been the thing that has surprised us the most, and it's still hard to wrap our minds around and we have to be really careful about. But people take inspiration and there is a deep, emotional connection. I could tell you all sorts of stories of things we get to see, but I'll tell you one that my wife likes me to tell because I tear up sometimes. Mark : The National Down Syndrome Society sponsors Buddy Walks around the country, but the biggest one is in New York City. Before it starts, they rent a billboard in the city in Times Square, and they want like a video with faces on it of people with down syndrome. So, we go there and John's like a rock star in that community. People are swarming him. But a woman comes up to me and just hugs me and says, "Thank you." Mark : Okay, what's going on? And she explains that she is from Curacao, an island just off of Venezuela. And she tells us that her daughter had gotten pregnant and tested that she was going to have a child with down syndrome. She explained that on Curacao, people were ashamed of people with disabilities, that they hide them. It's something they don't want deal with, talk about it. And in fact, everybody knew that her doctor said, "This is what you're going to do. You're going to get an abortion." And to me, this is not really an abortion story. This was just, this was grant. This is what's going to happen. And the family came home and they saw a news story about John and John's Crazy Socks. Mark : And she said, it changed their entire outlook. And she introduced us to her one year old son. How awesome. We get people coming up to us all the time, thanking us and telling us how they want to do this with their child, or it gave them hope. And we have to be careful. We have nothing special. We're just out doing these things and sharing. So when John stands up in front of a crowd, be it 10 people at a SEPTA, be at 22,000 people at Madison Square Garden, and they see what he can do, it changes people's minds. And we are very fortunate to be able to do that. Maura : I think you really are living that mission of spreading happiness and of doing great things with the opportunities that you've been afforded. Mark : We've been given a lot. We had our family and I could go on about my other boys and the love of my life. We'll be married 40 years. John : It's 39 years still. Mark : It's still 39, I know. Mark : There's a reasonable chance that we'll make it to June. Reasonable chance. Maura : Fingers crossed. Mark : Well, you know. I'm still a Dylan fan. There's that line, when I see you, I don't know if I want to kiss you or kill you. A lot a marriage in that. Here's just some of what we get to do, and how fortunate. We get to see minor miracles all the time. So one of our colleagues, Thomas, his mother calls us in October of 2017 and says, "I understand you hire people like my son. I need you to give him a job." We're not hiring, we'll post when we are. She calls every day and the moms are persistent. She's not the only one who's done this. So I got on the phone with her and I said, "Well, tell me about Thomas." Mark : She says, "Well, he's early twenties. He's on the autism spectrum. And he's in a very bad way. He's very depressed. We have trouble getting him to come out of his room. He won't shower or shave. He doesn't want to deal with anybody. We can't get him to join any programs or activities. It's so bad he hasn't spoken to his father in over six months." Sounds like a great employee. Mark : So, we have an opening and bring him out. And the opening is for our sock wrangler position, that's kind of our entry level position. We pay $15 an hour to start because everybody, you got to pay a fair wage. The way you get the job, you meet with John and me. We want to make sure you understand the mission and our values. Then one of our current sock wranglers will train you and they love doing it. You've trained people. John : Yes. Mark : They love doing it. And then when you're ready, you have to pass the sock wrangler test. You got to pick six orders, 30 minutes or less, show us you can do the job. Well, Thomas comes out and after an hour of training, says, "I'm ready." And he passes that test as if he was put on this earth to be a sock wrangler. Today, on the days he works, Thomas is ready, showered and shaved at 6:30 in the morning for his father to drive one hour to work. When he gets in here, the young man who wouldn't look at anybody or talk to anybody, goes around and wishes everybody in the building a good morning. Mark : I want to be really clear here. We did nothing. We did no special training, no government funding, no special programs. All we did was give Thomas the opportunity to earn a job, and how fortunate are we? And so Holy Cross, the imprint that studying and understanding the liberal arts in the way it gets you to think and prepare, the way you imbue. Some of this comes from studying literature. You imbue different levels, different things all in the same action. That runs through what we do. I've spoken to students. Mark : So, I was an English major, I got out in 1980. There was no internet. Fax machines had not come, they've come and gone. There were no cell phones. We run an E-commerce business, I couldn't have studied that if I wanted to. But the liberal arts let you understand how to learn, how to figure things out, and so this runs through what we do today. And a lot of my classmates would be shocked to think that someone would be interviewing me for a Holy Cross alumni network. You've met those friends. John : I do. Mark : Paul, you should be talking to him. Paul Miles running a charter school and John Flynn, who's got this bicycle recycling program in Hartford. Charlie Brown or Chris Potter and Sue Mack and all these good people. Maureen, lots of good stuff. Maura : John, what's the best part for you about working with your dad? John : One thing I love working with my dad, I'm so lucky to be where he is. I'm never without my dad. He always, I've changed I can, if possible. I love my dad. Third and lastly, about my dad going to Holy Cross. I am a proud son because I am so, so happy of him being my father. Mark : What about your mom? You got to speak up for her, right? John : Yeah. I'll never forget mom. I am proud son. I am so proud of my dad, my mom accomplished. They are amazing accomplished. Mark : And you like hearing the stories of how we met, right? John : Oh yeah. Dad is so romantic. Mark : Romantic? Ricky, Kevin and I were looking for beer. And I can tease something for you. I'm not going any further than this. I've read in the alumni magazine and seen references to the fingers on the Jesus statue in the quad. I can tell you I was there and I know what happened. But that's it. No names, no details. Maura : Living mystery. That's what that is. Well, and my last question, this has just been really wonderful. What is your favorite pair of socks? Mark : What's your favorite pair? John : My favorite pair, my down syndrome superhero socks. Mark : Down syndrome superhero socks. Maura : Yes, that sounds like a good pair. Mark : Whose face is on those socks? John : Me. Mark : You. Maura : Good choice. Mark : You're a funny boy. Maura : I think we'll all have to check out that pair of socks. This has been an absolute pleasure. Is there anything else you want to share with listeners before we go? John : I want to say something. It's something that I said before... Mark : Go ahead. John : I am so proud of my dad's career. I am so proud of my dad's career and college. I am a proud son. I love my dad and what he did. It's wonderful. Mark : Well, there's a late poem from Yates where he recounts his achievements and those were notable, part of the revolution, part of the day of the Senate, winning a Nobel prize. But the refrain is what then sang Plato's ghost, what then are you going to do for me next? And we get to keep doing things, right? John : I love you dad. Mark : My boy. Maura : Thank you both so much. This has been just such a pleasure. John : I'm so proud of you Dad. Mark : Well, you let us know if there's ever something we can do. You got to put the pitch in. Where do people get stuff? John : At JohnsCrazySocks.com. Mark : There you go. Maura : Perfect. Yes. And I can say, I treated the alumni relations team to a pair of donut socks last year for Christmas, and they have been a big hit. So, I am a fan of John's Crazy Socks. Thank you for everything that you do. Mark : Well, thank you. John : I'm a big fan of my dad. Mark : You're a fan of your dad. Boy, you are being nice to me today. Maura : That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the Mission to be people for and with others. A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross, who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone you know, would like to be featured on this podcast, then please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcasts. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of St. Ignatius of Loyola, now go forth and set the world on fire. Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S2E06 TRANSCRIPT:   ----more---- Yucca: Welcome back to The Wonder: Science-Based Paganism. I'm your host Yucca. Mark: And I'm Mark. Yucca: And this week we are talking about manifestation, about creating your own reality and luck. Mark: right. So a lot of big topics all rolled into one discussion. Yes, Yes, because if there is any one thing that it can be said that humans all over the world seek to accomplish through magical or ritual practices, the cultivation of luck is probably number one, whether it's luck in love or luck with money or luck with health, those are the big three. But. Luck in politics, luck in, aspirations to better jobs or just so many things. Yes to win lotteries all that kind of thing. And so we'll be talking about our understanding of what luck is, and also talking about the whole concept of manifestation and creating and this idea that we can create our own reality. So let's get started. Yucca: So to start with this idea of the being able to manifest or create our own reality is one that is very popular in the pagan community and adjacent communities, as well as in many other modern religions. It's a very strong idea in many types of Christianity, for instance, where it might manifest more as praying rather than whatever your ritual practice or magic practices. Of course, another topic to get into is that magic? It's just depends on what you call it, but but there's a lot of layers to this in terms of what we have direct influence over and what we don't. Mark: Right, and we should say at the outset that this desire is a very natural human desire. We live in a world that has all these different factors and there's. It could seem like a lot of chaos going on around us all the time, because the world is constantly evolving with new emergent phenomenon happening all the time, including in our lives, new people come along, new situations come along. Some of them good for us, some of them not so good for us. So the desire to have some control over that, it's very natural. It. It completely makes sense that humans tend to want that that level of control. And that certainly has driven much of the development of Western occultism among, other systems of magical effort. And there's so there's no doubt that this has been a great focus for for many of the people going back many centuries who have tried to influence reality through ritual and religious practices. Yucca: And it's a really tricky area because there are some places where there's very strong evidence that we do have influence. For instance, in medical studies, there's a very strong correlation between the patient's general outlook and belief about the outcome and the actual outcome. This is very well-documented. Mark: Now it's not. Documented that the belief or practice or prayer or whatever of anyone else has any impact on the health of the patient that's been tested pretty thoroughly. And there really is not good evidence to suggest that. Yucca: Yeah. Now I'm aware of a study in which the patient had someone praying or practicing over them and that improved the outcome. But I don't know of any in which they did not know whether it was happening, whether it was blind, if they were unaware of the person praying or practicing for them. But once in which it's someone else was doing it over them, there was definitely an improvement Mark: Sure. And this goes to the power of laying on of hands and practices like acupuncture and Reiki and things like that, which probably mostly in terms of their effectiveness have to do with the giving of attention. To the patient and the and the physical contact, the beneficial nature of physical contact that we as mammals experience we're very social creatures and this is why we like to pet cats and dogs. Yucca: well, and the belief that it will do it right. The placebo and the playfully named nocebo are really very well-documented. So the belief that it will do it, if you believe that pill you're taking is going to harm you or whatever that food item is, if you truly believe it's going to harm you, then it's very likely that there will be actual harmful effects whether or not that substance itself would be harmful to the general population. This is to say that there's definitely is evidence for our own bodies being influenced by our minds. Mark: Yes. Yucca: There's also a strong belief and much of the pagan community that our beliefs can influence reality in a more fundamental way. And in a very, in that the secret kind of way, where if you believe or want something hard enough, then it's going to happen. And that Mark: is problematic in our view, not only because there isn't any really tangible evidence that it's true. But also because Yucca: It becomes very victim blaming. Mark: Yes also because it, it tends to state that people that have bad things happen to them somehow deserved it or asked for it. Yucca: It badly enough to not happen. Mark: The idea that you're poor because not because you were born into poverty, but because you didn't want not to be poor badly enough. And no this level of magical thinking is so deeply sewn into our society, not just these alternative religious communities, but it. The American attitude towards poverty in many ways is rooted in exactly this idea that somehow you can magically pull yourself up by your bootstraps and make something different for yourself, starting with no resources. It's demonstrably false, but millions of people in this country believe it. Yucca: And that particular one ties in to the luck aspect of this, where a lot of folks who are wealthy have had incredibly lucky things in their life, they were born in a time period that wealth existed. And on the level that it does. The country, that they were born in the particular sex, that they are, the family that they were born into, all of these things that they didn't get hit by the train or something like that. And it's very easy for us to not notice the lucky things, but notice the hard work that we did. So it's very easy to go: I worked really hard in school and I got my perfect grades. And so I got my scholarship and was able to, so I pulled myself up by the bootstraps. But, and it's very natural to notice the things that we did and not necessarily notice the things that other people did or just the circumstances that allowed for that. And I think it's easy to then think, Oh I believed in myself and I worked hard and therefore it worked out. So why doesn't that person do the same thing? They're poor because they don't believe hard enough or, my grandpa, he was poor. He didn't have a penny when he got off the boat. But not taking into account the reality for other people. Mark: And one of the things that people tend not to acknowledge in the course of this context is that in the past 50 years, things have changed in American society dramatically in the economy, the opportunities for people to move up in terms of their income and their standard of living have collapsed while tremendous volumes of wealth have flowed to the people who are already very wealthy. Yucca: And mobility only really existed for a small group of people anyways. Mark: That's true. Yucca: for most of modern American in history. That mobility was possible if you were a white man and not for everyone else. Mark: Yeah. And there was a short period of time when that started to open out into other groups a little bit, but then. Shortly thereafter came, trickle down economics, and that was the end of it. With a great deal of the messaging going along with that being about blaming the poor for their condition. So this idea of creating your own reality in terms of making lucky things happen for yourself. That's not real. In the same way that you don't see psychics collecting on lotteries pots all the time. It's just not real. That said, what we do have control over is ourselves. We have control over our way of viewing the circumstances that we're in and the situations that confront us and. There are more empowering ways to do that and less empowering ways to do that. And before we go further, we should definitely talk about toxic positivity. Because we're not saying, Oh, just put on a happy face and be positive about everything. Oh, it was great news that I got cancer because it brought me closer to my family and yada, yada maybe it still, wasn't such great news that you got cancer, toxic positivity is a real thing. And it can be used to shut people down who have experiences that they're suffering under. And it can be used in abusive ways in relationships and in families. And it's really not a great thing. Yucca: I see it towards children just constantly. Mark: Yeah. Yeah. What do you have to cry about? Yucca: Yeah. Yeah. Or their children in name, whatever the country is at the time. Yeah. Why aren't you happy? You should be happy. Look at all these things that I'm doing for you. And . Don't cry. Don't cry. Be happy. There's all of these different directions and levels to it. And the toxic part of that is the not acknowledging what's really happening. Things are not always positive. They arent. And it's not fair to say that they aren't, it's not fair to force to just because somebody else might have it worse. There's always going to be someone who has it worse. But that shouldn't be something to shut down somebody else's experience. Not to say that there can't be value in providing perspective, but as long as it's not shutting them down and oppressing them and in the process or yourself. Mark: And the key thing to keep in mind in all this is that our perspectives can be mixed. We can have real regret or anger or unhappiness about something that's happening in our life. And at the same time, have a great deal of happiness and enthusiasm joy about. The things that are happening in our life at the same time Yucca: They're both true. Mark: Authenticity is the key here. It's engaging with the world as it really is. And with the entirety of your feelings acknowledged and embraced now that said. Some of us learn simply to look at the glass as half empty. And we learn very disempowering messages that make it hard for us to achieve or to grow or to have our lives improve. And. We talked in a previous episode about the critic voice. And one of the things that the critic voice will often say is you can't do that. It'll never work. So don't try. And that is a very disempowering element of our own psychology finding ways to avoid that so that we can. Take a chance on something working try something new that we haven't tried before is a really important aspect of being mentally healthy. So as we talk about this idea of luck and manifestation, one thing that we are able to do, we aren't able to do our magical hookah Boga, and then have and then magically get a phone call that's offering us the dream job or or when a lot of you know, win a lottery ticket or something like that. But what we can do is we can calibrate our own way of looking at our life in a way that says empowering as possible. And that's not to say as positive as possible. It's as empowering as possible, which acknowledges all the feelings, not just the positive ones or just the negative ones. Yucca: That's a really important distinction. Mark: So what are some things that we can do that will help us to have an orientation to the world that might feel a little more lucky? It doesn't mean it is more lucky because luck is just the degree to which the probabilities are not playing out exactly in the short term. If something unlikely happens to you that you like then that's good luck. And if something unlikely happens to you that you don't that's bad luck, but in both cases, it's just something unlikely happening and unlikely things happen. Millions, billions of times every day. Yucca: That's our very existence. Mark: Yes. What were the odds that, that these people were going to meet and their genetics would combine in just this particular way. And then they would raise you in a particular context so that you would become you, the odds are astronomical, but Yucca: and then just follow that back for every single generation that has been, yeah. Mark: Yeah, Yucca: just mind boggling to even go there. Mark: it is Yucca: think about that. Mark: So So the idea of trying to cultivate luck is one that as science-based pagans, we don't really know brace that, trying to make things more likely or less likely through a ritual practice that works on us as the ritual practitioners. But it really doesn't work beyond that. Yucca: But what we could do. Might not be able to make yourself more lucky, but you may be able to change your behavior in a way that you behave more kindly towards someone. And that improves the way that they think and feel about you. And in turn the way that they treat you. Mark: Yes, our behavior. Really keys a lot of the interaction that we have with the rest of the world. And so if we are rude or mean, or condescending or any of those other kind of negative character traits, then you know, people are not going to be positively impacted by that. And they're not going to want to spend any interaction, energy on us. Yucca: Or worse they will, but not the kind we want. Mark: yes, exactly. Even worse. So that can make it harder to get jobs. It can make it harder to advance What you want to do into the surrounding culture. If you have a great idea and you really want to build some community around it, but nobody wants to spend any time around you, then you've really got a challenge ahead of you. This brings a conversation back to one of the fundamental principles of science-based paganism, which is that we can affect ourselves. We can affect ourselves and it is, it's not trivial. It's not extraneous. It is core to being able to have a generally happy and effective life, which is what I think of as the goal of living. We get to take this ride. We only get to take it once. And we should cultivate as much joy and as much improvement to the world around us as we possibly can. Yucca: Yeah that's a shared sentiment. So we can improve our luck by changing the way in which we are interacting, but we could also change the way that we are responding and what our takeaway and how we frame what is happening to us. Mark: Oh, I see where you're going there. Yes. Yes. When I was living with when I've had deep depressive episodes. The, my memories of those times, literally, there's this sort of gray, dim filter over every image that I can remember, like a literal darkness over my eyes. And what I do when I'm in that condition is I look for reasons to be unhappy. And I ignore reasons to be happy. I just felt my filter is set to negative and all that I let in is all the bad stuff. And that then confirms my depressive brain for being depressed. And then it makes generalized world pronouncements about the nature of reality and humans and society and life and all that kind of stuff that are all negative. And it leads me to lying in bed and not doing anything. The. So I have a really deep personal experience of how that kind of filter can profoundly impact not only mood, but also just your ability to function. Because if there's no point in anything and it's all doomed and it's all hopeless and it's all pointless and it's stupid even to try then you don't do anything. And you become more and more socially isolated and more and more unhappy. So being able to open those filters so that you can look for reasons to be happy as well. It gives you a more comprehensive understanding of the nature of your life. And that is a sense in which we do create our own reality. Yucca: Because we do create, we do choose what we are focusing on. And it's got that, it's that positive feedback loop that you're talking about, not positive in terms of positive. Like it's a good thing, but positive and it's reinforcing. So the more of those negative things that you are noticing, the worse you feel, the more negative things you're noticing and so on, but it works the other direction as well. And those are patterns. These are things that we have learned. Truly learned in terms of as how we are wired to look at the world. And it's a practice to shift that it's not like you just say one day, Oh, I'm going to snap my fingers. And I'm going to look at the positive side of things, right? It's you have to relearn those patterns, but in the process of relearning, then you are shaping your reality in that way. Mark: Yes. And it is indeed a learned practice. I had no examples in my family growing up of anyone actually going out of their way to appreciate. Anything flowers, sunsets, anything. They just didn't do that. They were miserable people and they conducted themselves the way miserable people do. And it wasn't until I was in a relationship in my mid twenties with a woman who really went out of her way. Wow. Look at that color. Hey look, the crocuses are coming up. All those. All those little moments that add to our lives and help us to feel that there is that there's reason for happiness, that there's reason for being glad to be alive. And it took me a long time, but I feel like I've gotten pretty good now at, looking around for the reasons to be happy and embracing them. Yucca: And then when you do that more pleasant person to be around Mark: Yes. Yucca: People smile at you more often, and then you feel better in general. And so there is some truth to this idea that we create our reality, but it's often taken in a, I think in a too literal way that twists the meaning to a point that is a falsehood. Mark: Yes. Yes. And certainly new age theories, like the secret and prosperity gospel Christian sects and all of these various kinds of what I think of as rackets that hook people in, by telling them that they are going to have everything that they desire just by wanting it really badly in the form of prayer or in the form of intention setting or affirmation. There are lots of these different sorts of behaviors that are supposed to gin up your level of luck. Yucca: You're just doing it wrong or you just don't want it enough, Mark: it's your fault. And that is so pernicious. It's just a terrible thing. Those kinds of exaggerated claims tend to drown out the more realistic claims about how we can influence our experience of our lives through changing our judgments, through changing our filters of what we pay attention to and through just becoming wiser just becoming more, more accepting of that reality is as it is, and we now, must contend with it, whatever that is. And that at some deep level that's okay. That it's the nature of the ride on planet earth. Yucca: And that it's not drastic or sexy or exciting because it's a process. It's not this thing that you suddenly decide and you say the right chants, or you say the right, whatever that it's built on habits. And skills that are developed and continual process. And it's something that gets reinforced because we learn new behaviors. We never stop learning and changing. We continue to change over time. Mark: And the reason it's called a practice is because that's what you have to do. You have to do it again and again, and it becomes easier. And then after awhile it becomes automatic. And when you've gotten to the point where it's automatic then you're in good shape. Because the stuff that is beneficial to your psychological health is now. Folded into your normative behavior patterns? Yucca: And that's not to say that bad things are going to happen. Mark: Nope. Yucca: still, Hey, you might get a global pandemic. That no matter how happy or balanced or whatever you were that doesn't stop the rest of what's happening. But what it does do is influence your resilience and your ability to respond and to be able to then think and feel clearly in those situations. Mark: Yeah, it gives you a leg up when something bad happens to you, because you can understand that in context and instead of going, why me, or what did I do to cause this, instead, you just look at the situation and realize, okay, this is really a challenge for me. And, in a methodical sort of way how do I adapt to it? How do I approach this? What would be helpful? What would be less helpful? It just gives you a much more grounded and nuanced way of navigating the events that happen to us in life. Yucca: Exactly. So why don't we get into some actual practices? People could try some strategies to maybe try out for the first time or build on what they're already doing, or just as food for thought. Mark: Okay. Okay. I think various kinds of journaling practices are very helpful for this sort of thing. Listing a listing, the good things that are in your life, listing the things that you're grateful for listing the things that you find really challenging and understanding that that both of those lists are true that all of it is true at the same time. But particularly if you're really beset by a negative filter, it's very effective and it will set your critic voice off to chattering, but you can push through that. And writing down, all the things that you have to be grateful for is a great way to start the process of opening that filter up a little. Yucca: Yeah, and that could be something that's done in ritual. That could be something built into your daily practice. And both are both a really very powerful in their own rights. I've shared before on this podcast, the practice that I have with my young children of going outside first thing in the morning and greeting the sun and saying hello, and just sing some things that we're grateful for. And. With the little children, sometimes it's adorably cute. This morning it was the color red. Mark: Okay. Yucca: That's a great thing. Wonderful thing to be grateful for. It's a great color. Yeah. But just the thinking for looking for things to be grateful for, Mark: Yes. Yucca: just that act and as adults for, most adults in North America coffee is a normal part of the morning routine. That's a great place to add in things in that you want to get done in the day. And to just from the very start, just start the day you start the day with coffee and thinking about those things that you're grateful for or trying to do a little bit of a perspective change there. Mark: Uhhuh. Yeah, I love that ritual that you do with your kids. That's fantastic. But I think that the main point is just start to be aware of how you're, where are you focusing your attention and the kinds of judgments that you make about the events in your life, how they color your emotional expense? Just starting to notice, because being self-aware is really core to these pagan paths. In my opinion, I think that, coming to know yourself is a core piece of being able to work with yourself in ways that help you to be happier and more effective. Yucca: We're going to come back to it again soon. But we're saying about a year ago at this point, we did an episode on ritual and there's a lot of ideas in there for any, anything that you're working on in ritual, but bringing some of those creative ideas into your life to bring some of that perspective change. Now we've been talking in a sort of a general way in terms of a change of our outlook on our experience, what we're aware of, what we're present with, but there's also specific behavior patterns and events that we can focus in on. It doesn't have to just be general. We could focus in on particular conflicts or challenges we might be having with individuals or after doing that noticing you might notice that there's a place that there's something that really triggers you. And then you can go back with ritual and with thought and planning to address, okay, how do I address that particular issue? Mark: Yes. Yucca: And. Sometimes the ritual aspect can be really powerful, but I also want to suggest that there are, that there's the physical reality environmental side as well. Sometimes there are environmental inputs that we have that shifting those can just make a huge difference. Are you overwhelmed because it's a really loud environment? So you'd need to step out of that loud environment. Are you angry, right? Are you hangry during these environments? What are some physical things that you can do that may not be necessarily ritual, but just practical things that you can notice in your life that can make a difference. Mark: Yes. Yes. As we've mentioned so many times on this podcast, we're monists in that we believe that the body and the mind are the same thing and caring for your physical self has a profound effect on your mood and on your perspective. And that always needs to be kept in mind. As always we welcome comments on this. Would imagine that there are a number of people that would be pretty unhappy with our characterization of manifestation magic and the secret and so forth. But we're happy to hear from you at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com. We're always glad to hear from listeners and welcome your suggestions for future podcasts. Yucca: Thank you everyone. And thank you, Mark. Mark: Thank you, Yucca. It's always a pleasure to talk with you.

On this episode of Quiet Light, we talk with Joe and Mike Brusca. We discuss Ecommerce and how they built an Amazon publishing business. It's a really interesting look at one Ecommerce business model and how it works. Tune in to hear us discuss the right and wrong way to drive traffic and why their business is such a success. Topics: How they got their start during the “wild west” period of Ecommerce. How to structure your business when you get paid “per page reads”. The Right Way and The Wrong Way to drive traffic. Building an algorithm-proof business. The “right” types of books. Delayed profitability and building your back-catalogue. How Joe and Mike are planning their eventual exit. The four pillars of value. Transcription: Joe: One of the cool things about what we do, Mark, is that we're exposed to so many different business models. There are a million ways to make a living both on and offline. You can do all sorts of things offline, but online, it's not just writing content and producing affiliate revenues or building a brand and selling it on Shopify or e-commerce or building on a SaaS business. And we have the luxury and privilege of talking to so many people and learning what they do and how they do it and how they make money. There's not just one model for everyone. And you had Joe and Mike Brusca, is that how you pronounce the last name? Mark: I believe so. Joe: On building an Amazon publishing business to sell. And, I talked to somebody a year or so ago that did a similar thing and wanted to sell. And unfortunately, folks, he didn't have his numbers together. He didn't have any financials. He just had a lot of high-level details and it's not something we thought we could sell because we want to protect both the buyer and the seller. In this case, these guys were doing a very similar thing; building out a lot of content through actually having books published and earning revenue off of that. How did that call go? Mark: It was fascinating. I mean like you said, we get the chance to see different people's business models and look they made no allusions to anything other than the fact that they are looking to build this business and eventually sell it, which is where it became a really interesting conversation for me to have. There are so many different business models out there and we know most of them that exist, right? There's SaaS, there's content, there's drop shipping and e-commerce in general but what they've started is a publishing business and leveraging a different part of Amazon, which is really how Amazon got to start and that is their publishing and selling of books. We dug into what that business model looks like; how are they making money from selling Amazon Books and primarily, this is where their difference is, right? They're not just selling books for the face value of $10 to download this Kindle book but they're utilizing Kindle Free Time, which is an Amazon-specific program that's generating, frankly, quite a bit of money. In fact, they mentioned the best month so far is $25,000 in a single month of revenue for content that once it's built, it's built and it's ready to go and their back catalog perpetuates itself. Joe: That's called cash flow folks. If you're building a product business, you're constantly putting money in inventory as the business grows. That's a beautiful model. Mark: These guys are classic Internet entrepreneurs. They've sold a few dropship businesses in the past. They have some other e-commerce businesses that they're building to sell as well. So if anything else, this is just a fascinating conversation about building a business that maybe you don't know exists out there. I didn't really know much about this and I'll confess after this I spent about half an hour researching what the top books and the Kindle Free Time library are on Amazon just to see is this something that anybody can do. And I think it is something anybody can do but if you enjoy kind of digging into somebody's business models, these guys are incredibly open about what they're doing and how they're doing it. They do have a coaching program and that was one of the things that they wanted to come out for the podcast but there certainly wasn't a sales pitch for that. This is more just kind of exposing what they're doing. I asked them some tough questions as well, and I think they appreciated the fact that I didn't just throw softballs. I wanted to really challenge them a little bit on this concept and what they're doing and just interesting stuff. Joe: Yeah, I'm looking forward to listening to it. Before we go there, folks, this is part of what we do at Quiet Light. We try to bring interesting guests on to help you learn different business models and different ways to earn a living and build a better business. If you've got a story that you want to share where you think you can help the Quiet Light audience, remember reach out to myself or Mark. You can reach us at joe@quietlightbrokerage.com or mark@quietlightbrokerage.com and let us know what your story is that you want to share, how you can help folks, and possibly we'll be able to get you on the show as a guest. With that, let's go to the podcast. Mark: All right, guys, I'm excited to have two entrepreneurs on this week's podcast in a little bit of a different spin on online businesses; an area that I haven't explored very much but is growing very quickly. And I'm interested in, first of all, this business model in general because I see it as a potentially interesting opportunity, but also in maybe some applications that we can leverage this type of business for. But in order to do that, we kind of have to dig into what is this whole niche and this whole industry that's kind of springing up. And so with that in mind, I have Joe and Michael on the line here on the podcast. Guys, thanks for coming on, I really appreciate having you here. Why don't we just go ahead and if you could just introduce yourselves real quickly and let us know who you are? Joe: Cool. Thanks for having us, Mark. And we're Joe and Mike. We're brothers. Joe Brusca, Mike Brusca, and we're from BuildAssetsOnline.com. We've been doing online business since around 2014. It's kind of when we got started. We had regular jobs and all that, and then we ended up and somehow fell into building online businesses. And, one of the first online businesses that we ever did was publishing books on Amazon Kindle. And when we first started it, it was a bit of a Wild West situation where it was kind of new and Amazon didn't really have their stuff figured out yet and a lot of people were exploiting the systems and their platform wasn't really fully evolved but now it's turned into a really viable long term business model. And in these past few years, we've kind of put together a process that allows us to build and make royalties pretty much on autopilot. And we've seen in the past few years some of these Kindle businesses sell for over a million dollars. We haven't sold ours yet but, yeah we're going to talk about that because it really is a great business model; very, very easy to do, very straightforward, and once you get it going, very passive. Mark: All right so you guys are selling Kindle books. Is that correct? Mike: Yes. We're selling Kindle books and like Joe said, it kind of fits into anyone who has an online business portfolio. It is a really great option to have because it's probably one of the most passive models that there is where there is royalties and so it's definitely a unique form of diversification. We've sold drop shipping businesses, we've dabbled in affiliate websites and so we've kind of seen the entire breadth of online businesses that you can do and it's definitely one that we are putting extra energy into long-term. Mark: Now, I want to dig into this a bit more, because I'll be honest, when you guys first approached me about talking about this on the podcast and everything else I was like Kindle, okay, sounds fine, whatever, it doesn't really fit with what we normally talk here but then when you started to get into some of the details, it was interesting just as far as what you're doing, you're getting royalties for these books, but it's not necessarily you just going on Amazon, listing a book for sale, and then selling it because obviously, that would be; I know a lot of people who have had published books that went up on Amazon and didn't do much there. Maybe they've sold a few and everything, but nothing to write home about. You guys are now talking about selling this for millions of dollars so there's obviously a twist here. I'd love to dig in a little bit deeper here into this. What are you guys doing that might be different from the guy who signs up with XYZ Publishing Company and they add the Kindle book and then they might sell 100 or 500 copies of their e-book? Mike: The main difference is that we're creating our own publishing company and what we're selling is essentially publication company or that pen name. And so we're going out and we're making these books under specific pen names, and it's all with the purpose of generating an audience. So like you said, you can put a book out there on Kindle and nothing's going to happen. What you need to actually focus on is building that brand. And so that pen name becomes a brand just like any other Clorox or whatever brand you could think of that people buy in private equity. It's kind of the same thing. So you're creating these digital products under this pen name. You're developing an email list. You're developing an author website. You can even put your books on ACX, which is Amazon's that's how you get on audible, so it's an Amazon company. And so, you have the Kindle version, the paperback version, and the audiobook version. You're doing this with the whole purpose of generating just a big customer base and that is really where the asset lies. Mark: When you're putting these up for sale are you getting money from the direct purchase of these books; how are you generating revenue from these? Mike: So you get money from the direct purchase of the books. But Amazon also offers something really unique, and that's the Kindle Unlimited program. So there's a huge readership for fiction books and so Amazon wants to accommodate this. And so what they do is for $50 a month or whatever it is now, you can sign up to what's called Kindle Unlimited and you basically can read as many books as you want throughout the month. And so any book that's enrolled into the Kindle Unlimited program, you can download it for free. The way that the publisher gets paid through that is by the amount of pages that get read. And so doing fiction books it's even more advantageous because you can publish novel-length books or you've probably experienced with any show that you've watched once you start watching an episode, you're going to go back through the entire back catalog. And so that's what we're trying to capitalize on in order to get the most page reads. Mark: Okay, so the model here is Kindle Unlimited, you get paid per page read so, therefore, you're wanting to create content that is going to be an easy page-turner, as it were, right? I'm not going to publish some Academia throw it up on Kindle Unlimited and do very well with that sort of approach, right? Mike: Correct. And yeah if you're doing something maybe non-fiction or something more academic, it may serve you better just to have it as a straight purchase option. So, 9.99 or even though we sell books at 2.99 those books can actually still do really well as long as they're part of a bigger catalog because people will decide to buy that book. So we kind of employ that as a strategy. We mix, regular sales with Kindle Unlimited, but Kindle Unlimited still makes up probably 80% of the income. Mark: Okay. Now, you guys have built an entire business around this. I'd love to dig into a little bit longer. How long have you been doing this? Mike: So we started it back in 2015. Joe, did you want to say something there? Joe: No, I was going to say 2015, but it's evolved a lot over time like I was kind of alluding to earlier. And I think we only may have resumed it. We kind of took a little bit of a hiatus when we started getting into other online businesses. We're mainly working with building high ticket drop shipping stores and building affiliate sites and content sites. So we kind of took a little bit of a hiatus but then I think around two years ago is when we really got back into Kindle; when we kind of saw that Amazon was really improving the platform and there were there was actually a lot of potential to build a long term business on it because like I mentioned earlier, it is kind people have been publishing on Kindle for a long time but in our opinion two years ago, that was really when it became the most viable thing to do long term and that's when we kind of start seeing these types of businesses pop up for sale. Mark: Yeah. So you got started at 2015 so about five years ago, but really in earnest over the past two years and would have spent some of those iterations over the years with the things that you've had to do to adjust to make this into an actual business. Joe: So I do want to clarify that over that kind of three-year hiatus of not doing a lot of publishing, we were still actually making money. So we're talking no hours a month into this business and it was still bringing in, probably a five-figure outcome each year. So, again, it's really something that's super passive, especially once you do it right. But we were doing things that; basically Amazon has an algorithm and so when you put out a book, you want to get us as high in the algorithm as possible. You want to get that best-selling status or you want to do something to have people on Amazon find you. And so that was kind of the intention in the beginning. It was more focused on like you said you're storing the books on Amazon and seeing what would happen. And so that's kind of how we started out doing it. We weren't doing any of this actual brand building or email list-focused marketing and stuff that. And like Joe said Amazon was kind of like the Wild Wild West, there weren't a lot of rules in place, people were kind of exploiting those rules. And then Amazon began to crack down on that in 2016 and they're always kind of tweaking the algorithm and trying to make things more of a level playing field and just encourage certain behaviors. So over time, the trend has really gone in the direction of having your own external traffic source that you can drive to Amazon and so they reward you for that. And your reward is increased exposure on Amazon so you get that internal traffic. But. If you're actually getting good books and you're focusing on building a brand, these people will come off of Amazon onto your list, and the cycle kind of repeats itself. Mark: All right. So I'm getting the general idea for it. You've got into a little bit as far as if you do things right, which is a loaded phrase; I mean you guys have doing this now for five years and if you do things right is the result of a five-year process of tweaking and figuring things out. Let's first start though with doing things wrong where it is just throwing it up on Amazon and hoping and praying which is no different than selling a product on Amazon. You throw something up on Amazon hope and pray, you're not going to have much success. You need to have a plan. So what are some of the wrong approaches and then what are some of the right approaches on starting up a Kindle business that can be a sellable asset in the future? Joe: Well, when we first started doing it. Yeah, like you said we were just throwing books on Amazon but the thing is we weren't really writing the type of books that we're writing now. So when I say writing, I mean publishing, because we don't actually write the books. But yeah, it was more about just; back then, Amazon's algorithm really rewarded more so than it does now things that were new. So if you put a new book up with the right keywords, even though it was a short book, as long as it was keyworded right it would show up in the right categories but now it's not really like that. So when we say the right way and the wrong way, that's pretty much the wrong way because it doesn't really work anymore. But it did work at a time and you can kind of see this and it makes sense from Amazon's perspective, is that they want that external traffic. I mean, they're always trying to drive people to Amazon and that's what they reward now. So the wrong way to do is it's at a different time and just taking advantage of how the algorithm was back then. But I don't really see it going back to that direction because like Mike said, it's been moving in the direction that we're talking about now, which is the right way for some time now. Mark: Okay, go ahead, Mike. Mike: Yeah. If I could just add one thing, really, what we've, kind of waited all those years to serve and hone in on now in terms of doing things the right way, is building the business back up in a way that's algorithm proof so that if we're throwing all these books on Amazon and they change something it doesn't completely destroy our business. So now when you have your own readership off of Amazon, it's kind of a win-win relationship for both platforms; good books, people enjoy reading them so they come kind of into your sphere but you give that back to Amazon and they reward you. Mark: Right. Yeah, I mean, it's no big shocker that Amazon likes it when you send traffic over to them. I mean, that's kind of a rule of Amazon, you want to play well with them, send them traffic. So let's actually dissect some of this here. And you talked about the right type of books, the wrong type of books, and then we've also talked about building traffic, and we've also talked about publishing these books. So there are three loaded questions in here which is what are the right type of books number one, and what are the wrong type of books and then second of all would be okay, drive traffic; how? What does that look like? Build a brand is easier to say, it's three words, doing that is no easy task. Building up a following of people is always difficult. And then the third question is writing these things; how do you get them written? So these are all big topics and I don't want to throw them all at you at once so let's go ahead and start with that first one. What are the right type of books, what are the wrong type of books, and what are the books that you just have no idea if it's right or wrong? Mike: Yeah, and to be clear, we hate platitude as well so I don't want to just linger there. So the right types of books would be; like I was saying before you get paid based on page reads. Back in the day, people used to just draw up short books just to kind of; you're kind of throwing as many pieces of bait out there, seeing if one rises to the top and then just kind of going from there. Now we publish books that are usually 30,000 words in length at least so that would be considered novel-length. People would go all the way up to 80,000 words and more and so we say that the right type of book has to be a length that readers can enjoy nut it also has to be a book that is written towards what the market is already demanding. And so what does that mean again? You actually need to do your research and go on Amazon and see; you'd have a very, very keen eye as to the trends that are going on; what types of covers are there, are there any similarities in the covers, any similarities in the titles, going through some of the content of the books? You're trying to pinpoint what it is that readers actually enjoy. And so by doing that, you're more likely to get better conversions, more read-throughs, more people actually subscribing to your email list, and that's what we mean by the right book. And so then you're talking about driving traffic. So it's like we said when people find you and they enjoy your books you can get them off Amazon by giving them say like a free book if they subscribe to your list. And so now you build up a readership. And there's also a lot of other websites where you go and collaborate with other authors and kind of do list swaps. So you're building yourself up that way and so external traffic with Kindle is always about the list. But also, you can take that and say even put it onto Facebook by doing something like a look-a-like audience and now you can kind of ramp up more traffic to Amazon. And a lot of times you do it with the purpose of, again, giving them more referral traffic so they can boost you higher in the algorithm. Yeah, there's other ways to capitalize on it as well by making your own publishing website or you're own author website doing things like blogging there to get traffic. And now, again, you have that audience pixeled, you can use them to drive traffic to Amazon. Mark: Right. Okay, so from your guys perspective and I'm not going to ask you to open up all the doors of your P&Ls historically here but when we're talking about building a network and building a brand and everything, there's a lot of expenses associated with this. So you talked a little bit about the passive revenue, which is great, people love passive revenue. But what goes on behind the scenes? I looked at ads and sites before where somebody fills up an ad on-site and they're like look at this thing it's generating $10,000 a month in passive income. But what they didn't show you is the $150,000 they spent on content and link building over the past year. And so you're like, okay, you're just getting started now you sure hope that that lasts for you. You guys seem to have the sort of cost of authors which we need to talk about at some point; how do you find the writers and how do they get compensated and then also building up this audience? Well, what does this look like from an expense standpoint compared to what you get from Amazon? I would assume profitable otherwise you wouldn't be talking about this but what are we looking at here? Mike: Well, I would say there's really two paths you can go down. So we talked about you can use Facebook and drive traffic that way and that would be more of a kind of accelerated approach to trying to get quicker earnings on Amazon. Or you can do more of a slow and steady approach, which is kind of what we do with a little bit of Facebook ads. So what this means is just consistent but relatively low cost. Just say okay, I'm going to invest in a book a month and if you're just consistent with that, say it costs you 500 to 800 bucks a month for all your expenses, your book cover, editing, whatever. Obviously, when you put that first book out, you're not going to be profitable immediately. You have to also do some list building expenses, maybe. But over time, over the course of a few months, you start to build up quickly. Okay, now I'm making $20 a day, now I'm making $30 a day. And so it's really a snowball effect as you build up that back catalog, as you gain more followers. And so now once you have a bigger following, you put a book out and then you get a return on that book pretty quickly. Joe: It's nothing like you illustrated with that ad sense example. So, again, I don't really have the numbers in front of me, but I can give you a rough estimate. So I think it was a few months ago when we usually make between; so there's a few months ago where we made over $26,000 in royalties and we probably got one book published that month where we spent the $500 to $800 and we probably spent 3,000 or 4,000 in Facebook ads that month. That's a rough estimate of what you would see typically. But again, it varies because sometimes you're not always heavily promoting on Facebook. Depending on what month it is, maybe you put out two books but we tend to put out one book a month. But, yeah, that's generally what it looks like for us now. When you're getting started, it's obviously going to be slower. But I've made affiliate sites and I made sites that rely on SEO and link building and the expenses are nowhere near that, not even in the same ballpark. Mark: Okay, you guys lost me a little bit here. $500 to $800, write a 30,000 plus word book, I mean, I pay $500 for a single blog post on our site. So let's talk a little about sourcing authors, I know you guys are in the fiction space here, are fiction writers that much more willing to write for $800 or $500 or what's going on behind the scenes there? Mike: Yeah. So it's definitely a bit of a different market than getting a blog post written or even a nonfiction book because there's really no research involved. It's just kind of a creative process. So comparing it at a cent per word basis, it's going to be a lot lower. And there are people that invest more into that, there are people that invest less. But what we found is honestly as long as the books are good then people will read them, the audience response to them well. We've kind of gotten to a nice, sweet spot there where you can invest more and maybe that has a better return; I don't know, we haven't really experimented too much but yeah, that's really you can certainly go on Upwork or even Craigslist we found writers or you could probably go on Indeed and find writers. But it's not an uncommon rate to spend say two cents a word or even less on a fiction book. Joe: To write a blog post for your company, Mark, I mean that's a lot more expertise required than writing a fiction book for sure. And fiction writers, think about it in terms of rarity; how many people love reading fiction, love writing fiction compared to how many people have any sort of knowledge about online business. I mean, the supply and demand there is just totally, totally different. Mark: Do you guys read the books that you publish? Mike: In the beginning, I did. I was kind of bootstrapping it but these days no, we just kind of; I mean, I'll read samples like if I'm hiring someone new just so I can evaluate if they're actually good at writing. But no, it's just they send it in, it goes to the editor, get the cover design, put it together, send it out. And so if there was any real issues we also have an advanced reader team so they get the book as well to write reviews because Amazon actually does allow you to give away your book for reviews. Right now at 2020 in May they allow it. And that is because it's a very common practice in fiction. You give people the book early to let you know how it is. You can't do that with a physical product. So it actually allows you; it's much easier to develop that social proof and you also are not giving away all of your 20, hundred thousand units to get reviews back like with FBA. Mark: Right, because it's a virtual product at the end of the day. I want to backtrack a little bit because I've had this nagging question my head. You talked about the number of page reads, they pay on the number of pages read, they're not looking at the furthest amount that you've gone in the book but actual time spent on each page is that right? Do you know? Mike: I don't know their exact process, but I would say it's kind of a combination of both. I mean, there's probably a number of time that they spend on a page for it to count and then it would be the amount of pages that they actually read for that number of seconds. Mark: Yeah, because my shortcut got to cheat the system mind was thinking, oh man, what you did to choose your own adventure, you could get them to go all over the book and… Joe: Do you remember when I was talking about the Wild Wild West? Mark: Yeah. Joe: I mean that's the kind of stuff that was going on. So they've spent a lot of time on perfecting and tweaking that algorithm. Mark: You're telling me that Amazon is smarter than me. Joe: Well, I'm just saying you were… Mike: Maybe they were not really paying attention and what people were doing was; so they actually have a cap now on how long the book can technically be. So even if a book is 100,000 pages Amazon will only count it up to 3,000 pages. So what people were doing was they're really abusing the system, they will just fill these books with just the most random things and they would have these books that were so long and then they would have something like to win a free prize just click to the back and then boom, they would make 150 bucks. Mark: Right. Mike: That was part of the reason… Joe: I got a lot of trouble for that. Mike: Yeah. That was part of the reason why we walked away from it actually was because it was almost like if you think about professional sports, everyone is taking steroids so in order to even compete because page reads wards you in the algorithm so you'd have these random books in the best-selling things; this is way back in the day so we never did anything crazy like that but it just seemed too; it was between doing stuff like that or not doing stuff like that and we did it. We always thought it was risky to go crazy abusing the system like that so that was one of the reasons why we kind of took a little bit of a hiatus until things evened out. Mark: Right. Okay, well before listeners wonder how far off track we're going to go from our core type of topics here, this is fascinating, I could talk about this all day. I think this is interesting. You guys are building this publishing business with an eye towards someday potentially exiting as well. I'd like to get into some of the things that you guys are doing internally to maybe plan for that. What discussions have you had internally about that? And I'm hitting you out of left field on this. We didn't prep for this before the call so understandably if you don't have ready-made answers, that's fine but have you guys discussed buildings up for sale and what sort of things have you done to maybe have an eye towards that potential exit someday? Mike: So really, the main thing that we've done to kind of have it focused on exit is to focus on having that separate publishing site. So that way we're really establishing ourselves as a brand. We're not just getting income just from these royalties. We actually get affiliate commissions. We have visitors that come to the website and then buy the books. And so, yeah, it's kind of we focused on what can we do off of Amazon like we kind of touched upon it's good to do that for the algorithm and just for your own sake but it actually does help kind of diversify what we're doing and make things a lot better when it comes down to selling it. I don't know if you have any insight there. Mark: So we have a very simple framework that we call the four pillars of value; it's the risk of your business, the growth potential, the transferability, and the documentation. So building up a brand is key; it helps protect against the risk and it's also aiding towards the transferability of the business, which is something that we would definitely encourage. Joe, were you going to say something on top of that? Joe: Yeah, I was going to say as far as the documentation goes, because I feel maybe that's what you're asking. Maybe I'm wrong, but the documentation is not really complex at all. If we were to put together something for someone that we're handing off the business to we would probably just give them; we have like an education course on this subject, but we would just give them that. But it's really just not complicated at all. It's not like handing off an e-commerce store to someone or even an Amazon affiliate site to someone that knows nothing about SEO or WordPress or something like that. When I say it's simpler, it's much, much simpler. Mark: Right. Yeah, absolutely. It reminds me a lot of the ads on publishing days, but through a more established platform of Amazon and utilizing that program. It isn't known much is my guess. Have you guys looked into; I know you're working mainly in the fiction field, have you played around in nonfiction? Because when we first talked about this, my head sort of went to what if we were to leverage this along with our existing business and add it as a revenue stream there? Your paid on a number of pages read, I'm not sure if you can create cliffhangers at the end of a chapter of a business book so much like is this P&L going to get murdered in the next chapter? I don't know. We'll see. What have you guys done, if anything, in that realm of nonfiction books or have you played with it at all and have you thought about using it with an existing business; you have drop shipping businesses on what you're your drop shipping but is there a potential play there, in your opinion? Joe: Well, we have done nonfiction before. When I first started publishing kind of similar books online, it wasn't Kindle, it was Create Space and it eventually merged, and Create Space became Kindle Paperback or whatever they call it. But at that time, I first started doing coloring books and we've done puzzle books and stuff like that. So I think that would be also classified as non-fiction. So I think there definitely is a play there to do that kind of stuff. And again, because that's something you can also build a brand around in the paperback space and you wouldn't approach it the same like we're talking about now with the page read and stuff like that. You'll have to put every book on Kindle Unlimited. It just really depends on the sector of books that you're going after. But as far as what you're saying I think it really is more of a; I guess any book on Amazon would probably be more B2C stuff. I can't imagine a B2B play in this area. There are people that sell non-fiction B2B stuff, but I don't know if it would be a great use of time for a company  yours, for example. I don't know. I don't really think so. Mike: What I would say is I wouldn't recommend doing that for the purpose of making money on Kindle. But the point is that by publishing a Kindle book, you're tapping into that audience and you're tapping into the organic traffic already on Kindle. So you're not going to make your money on page reads and you probably shouldn't be focused on making your money on sales either. What you should be focused on is putting up a good book that way it's almost like lead generation; the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey, I believe, think about how many millions of dollars off of Amazon that probably makes him just by building up his name because it's been an Amazon bestseller for who knows how long. So, yeah, when you're doing a non-fiction book on Amazon for business or for something like that you need to keep in mind kind of the back end funnel and it should be more of a complement to your business rather than the business itself. Mark: Right. Absolutely. And that's kind of what I'm getting at, right? I mean, any sort of content marketing play, in general, is just that, right? We bring a lot of content on the Quiet Light Brokerage blog, we have a podcast, I don't sell advertisements on the podcast even though we have a decent listenership. I don't sell ads on or put ads on the blog or ad thrive or anything like that because that's not the main goal. The goal is to build that audience. Although, if there was a way like with Kindle Unlimited it seems kind of a nice backdoor to make a little bit of money, I just don't know what the payouts are on that. How many books do you think you need out of a portfolio to be able to turn decent amounts of money; more than just 30 bucks a day or so? I can't imagine one book unless it's top of Amazon is going to turn in that much money on Kindle Unlimited, I would imagine you need to have a portfolio of books. Mike: Yeah. And I'd say we were kind of familiar with how to do things already because we were doing them in 2015 so we were able to start profiting really within a couple of months. And it does build but it's a lot easier to scale as well because if you're publishing one book a month and you want to do better, publish two books a month. So, yeah, it's hard to say how much you're going to make because it comes down to the execution of it. If you have a really good book that just takes off in the algorithm, if you do the Facebook ads right, and you can really have a pick-up steam then you can make a lot of more money off one book. And it also obviously depends on the length of it as well; so the term how much one customer can kind of give you off that one book. But, yeah, you'd be surprised honestly. Some books can take off and really, really do well. We've only been doing this kind of new way for two years I guess this month and we've really seen it grow quickly and it grows exponentially. Mark: Interesting. Joe: Yeah, and keep in mind that getting into the Kindle top 100 of all the Kindle store, which we have done; getting into top 100 is way different than getting into the top 1000. The top 1000 is still really good but once you break into the top 100, it just; like Mike said, the book would just take off in terms of page reads and everything. So that's something else to consider, is that you have the slow and steady approach and maybe you never have anything that breaks in the top 100 but with the slow and steady approach as that back catalog builds, it doesn't matter. So that is there is a variable there if the book takes off or not. Now, I think if you do it correctly, every book should do decent but like I said, top 1000, top 100, totally different ball games. Mark: Joe, I asked you this when we talked a week ago or so, why share this information? I'm loving the discussion. I'm super entertained. Hopefully, people listening are entertained as well. What are you guys sharing this information for? It seems like you guys would want to be just kind of be like hey, don't come in here. Don't do it. I don't want to compete against you. Joe: Well, actually to be fully transparent we do sell a course on how to start a Kindle publishing business; Passive Publishing Profits. You check it at BuildAssetsOnline.com. But the other thing is the reason why we started doing education in the first place is the guy that told us to do it, he basically said it's a great way to leverage your success. And we have a lot of different online businesses like we've talked about but the thing is, is we might not want to grow these businesses into billion-dollar companies because we enjoy the lifestyle. Me and Mike, we just work from home and we think that the courses are not so much a detriment, but a great compliment as well; teaching other people and getting paid for that. But you also have to keep in mind that especially with Kindle, we encourage our students that you're not competing against one another, because like Mike mentioned earlier, there's this factor of swaps and things like that. So these people who read fiction books, they are really, really avid readers and so if you're partnering with other publishers like we encourage and like we do in our community, it's a win-win for everyone. There's no doubt about that. And taking that back to even selling education products in general, I mean, it's been an amazing experience for us. I'm sure we've generated some competition for ourselves in some way but I think the amount of partnership we've made and things like that far, far outweigh the cons there. Mark: Yeah, fascinating. Well, I'm always a fan of transparency. I mean, that's the only way to do business and I appreciate that as well and it's linked to really fascinating stuff. Guys, I know we're up against the clock here. I've been talking for about 40 minutes; just a little bit more on that so is there anything else that you would like to cut around the discussion with anything that we didn't cover that you're like man, why hasn't he asked this question? Joe: I don't feel that way. I think you did a good job of really trying to hammer in and have us explain ourselves. Mark: Hey that definitely makes you my favorite guests. You said I did a great job. Joe: Well, not every show does that, to be honest with you. I mean sometimes; I guess we feel leaving a little bit empty because we didn't get asked the deep questions that force us to be on our toes. I definitely got that with this one. Mark: Yeah, absolutely. Well, guys, I appreciate you reaching out. I appreciate you coming on here; really interesting stuff. I'd be lying if I said I'm not going to go on Amazon and take a look at the top 100 on Kindle and see what type of books are there. And there's no time for me to jump on another project but that doesn't mean that my entrepreneurial wandering eye isn't going to spend a little bit time looking at that. So I appreciate you guys coming on. I really enjoyed the conversation. Mike & Joe: Thank you, Mark.  Resources: Joe and Mike's Website Quiet Light Podcast@quietlightbrokerage.com

Do you feel like you're living on another planet right now? There's a reason. Humans are social animals and social distancing and isolation is not our normal here on Earth. Mark sits down with his son Tristan, and Carmel Johnston, two crew members from NASA's HI-SEAS IV study to learn what is required to survive and even thrive during an extended mission to Mars and how we can adapt our own behaviors to stay happy here on Earth. Transcript:  MARK BASSINGTHWAIGHTE: Welcome. You're listening to ALPS In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte, the Risk Manager here at ALPS, and today we're going to have a little fun, do something a little bit interesting. Believe it or not, I'm going to try to make some connections between Mars and all of these stay-at-home or stay-in-place orders all over the country. Now, how are we going to do that? I guess saying Mars is a little bit misleading. We are going to talk about a Mars simulation and I am so pleased and excited to have two very special guests on today and honestly both of them are very special people in my life and in the life of my wife. The first is Carmel Johnston. MARK: Carmel is quite an outdoorsman. Boy, trying to get her to do a podcast can be a bit of a challenge, but just because you never know where she is. I was watching this morning, a YouTube of her as she was doing a TV show in Australia of all places, but she also spends quite a bit of time now in Glacier National Park, another place that is near and dear to many of our hearts as folks in Montana. Carmel has a background from Montana State University, a master of science in land resources and environmental sciences. And now she is the Utility Systems Repairer and Operator at the National Park Service. And actually, Carmel, you're going to have to explain, is that the same position in Glacier? CARMEL JOHNSTON: Yeah, so it's called Utility Systems Repair Operator, but essentially it's a water and wastewater operator position so, all the water that people drink we create, and then all the wastewater that happens afterwards, we treat before it is given back to the earth. MARK: Okay, very good. And I'll explain a little bit more about Carmel here in just a minute. The other guest that I'd like to introduce is someone that goes back in my life quite a few years. We first met in, I believe it was, Tristan, wasn't it 1984 if I'm remembering correctly? This is Tristan Bassingthwaighte and Tristan among, and again, like Carmel, these two, you can find them all over the world at different times. Of note, Tristan received his Masters in Architecture from Tongji University in Shanghai, and then went on to complete his Doctorate of Architecture from the University of Hawaii, Manoa. Tristan has done all kinds of things, but my interest in having him visit with us today is, some of what he does is, how would you describe it, in terms of the different, I'm losing my words here, Tristan, but what type of architecture ties in here? TRISTAN BASSINGTHWAIGHTE: I specialize in the design of habitats, research bases, even you could say, drilling platforms, the areas people would go on earth or in outer space that are isolated, dangerous working environments, confined environments, and then how to understand the social and psychological issues that occur with people there, being removed from family and society and walks in the park and fresh coffee, and trying to address them architecturally, so that we could say, live on Mars for 10 years and not have everybody go crazy or something along those lines. MARK: My senior moment was extreme environment design. That's what I was struggling with, just every once in a while recall isn't what it should be. While you listeners might be wondering why I have these two guests visiting with us today and what Mars has to do with stay-at-home orders. Both of these folks were participants in a Mars simulation. It was, what is called HI-SEAS IV, and it was a 366 day mission, and Carmel was the crew commander for this mission and Tristan was the crew space architect, and they really have all kinds of stories and insights and experiences to share. But this was a project between NASA and the University of Hawaii, and they literally lived in a very small space for 366 days, never being able to go outside on the side of, it was Mauna Loa, if I'm remembering correctly, but Carmel, could I have you just share a very brief little background in terms of what this experience was about? And Tristan, of course jump in anytime. TRISTAN: Hmm. CARMEL: Yeah, so we were the six participants of the Hawai'i Space Exploration Analog and Simulation Mission Number Four and that consisted of the six of us living in a 1200 square foot dome on the side of Mauna Loa for the year, and like you said, we couldn't go outside unless we were wearing a space suit and we lived off freeze dried, dehydrated powdered ingredients for the year unless we were able to grow our own vegetables, and we were the guinea pigs studying the effects of isolation and confinement on all of us and out of all the different tools and techniques that people have thought of up to this point for dealing with those psychological aspects of confinement. MARK: Yes. Yep. Very good. And Tristan, maybe you can share just a little bit when we talk about isolation, there were six for those of you listening, a total of six individuals participated in this year long mission and I believe it's to this day, the longest isolation experiment run yet here in the States anyway, but there's isolation, too, in terms of communication and Tristan, could you share a little bit about that? TRISTAN: Yeah. When you actually go up there, you find you've got your row of laptops so we can all do our work and research and everything. You've got several electronic devices like iPads and everything to do quizzes and surveys, enter the various information for the experiments we're doing, write about how we feel, et cetera, sort of tracking our emotions and reactions during the course of the year. But also there's a viciously delayed internet that only allows access to a few research sites because that's what we were doing. Phones don't work. TRISTAN: There's no real time communication with anybody that's not in the dome. So if I was going to say, write an email to grandma, I could compose the whole thing and send it off and it would be held in an ESSA server for 20 minutes and then delivered to her. So, all of our digital communications that people focus on these days are light speed delayed the way they would be if we were actually on Mars. So, you're very, very, very removed from everybody physically and in terms of communication and every way you can imagine. So it's not just, oh, you're in a tent but you can hang out on Snapchat if you want. MARK: Very good, thank you. When you guys signed up for this and got selected in terms of what you were thinking it would be like versus what you ultimately discovered, did you know what you were getting into? TRISTAN: Yeah, I would say I had a fair idea because I was actually applying to this near the tail end of my Masters research and the Masters research was also on [inaudible 00:08:24] environmental architecture, sociology, psychology, and I only found HI-SEAS because I was trying to research analogs that were on earth and then honestly, just ask some of the participants questions and that accidentally turned into applying. MARK: How about you, Carmel? CARMEL: Yeah, I think we knew a lot about what we were getting into, but there's definitely a component to it that we had no idea how isolating it really would be. And several of us had done previous analog simulations before, not to that length of time, but two week simulations here and there, and each simulation you go through whether it's HERA or MDRS or HI-SEAS or SIRIUS, any of those, they all have different components to it. And so, ours was the delayed communications. You had unlimited amount of data to be dropping data packages if NASA needed to send us something, but it would be delayed and it would be in the say, constraints of how they would actually send data to Mars. CARMEL: Whereas other ones it's, oh you have unlimited real time communication but you only get a certain amount of data per day or per week or something. And then every simulation space suits are different and the different things that you're testing are different, which is great because we're compiling all these resources of the different aspects of isolation and confinement, and then, the ultimate test is going there. And so, hopefully if we practice all these different components to it here, then it will it make easier for actually getting there. MARK: Maybe, I'm just going to take a tangent for a quick second, in light of our listening audience here and I really didn't explain what HI-SEAS stands for. It is the Hawaii Space Exploration Analog and Simulation. So it's H-I dash S-E-A-S, if you ever want to look something up and see what HI-SEAS is all about. Was it hard? CARMEL: Oh yeah. MARK: How so? CARMEL: I would say that it, well, up to this point, it's been the hardest thing I've done in my life, but that is barring that my parents are still here and so when they go, that'll probably be the hardest thing I have to deal with. But having a lack of communication because our connection to society and our friends and family is humongous and each one of us, Tristan will tell stories about his friends that fell off. Each one of us had friends that wouldn't write back or they'd forget about us until the Martian came out, and then all of a sudden we get a lot of emails and people saying, "Oh, we're thinking of you." And you're like, well, where were you two months ago when I really needed you to respond back to an email? CARMEL: And it's kind of the out of sight, out of mind concept of as soon as you're gone then people forget because you're not in their regular life all the time. And we were just stuck up there doing our research and it was very easy to feel disconnected from the people that we cared about the most, which made us feel like, well, maybe we don't mean that much to them or you start playing all these games in your head about why people don't respond back. It's probably because they have kids and they're living their lives. But to you it seems like, well, this is really important to me. MARK: Tristan? TRISTAN: Yeah, I would definitely agree with that. I had all sorts of people that kind of vanished and dropped away. I mean, half of our relationships these days seem to be over email or text anyways. So, you'd think they'd be able to keep up, but it kind of gave you a good opportunity to, healthy or unhealthy, coping mechanisms can help get you through some stuff. So, it was a chance to pick up some hobbies and try and focus on work and do some other things as well, but you definitely feel it. MARK: Mm-hmm (affirmative). How did you make peace with that, I guess? How were you able to move forward? Because nobody at the end came out crazy, ready to be hospitalized. Nobody died, in terms of, you didn't kill each other, that kind of thing. So how'd you do it? TRISTAN: I think the big thing for me was a string of tiny little fun victories mixed with a few larger goals over the course of the last eight months perhaps. So, Carmel and Cyprian got really into trying to run a marathon and I thought that was the worst idea ever because who wants to run forever? That just hurts. And eventually, Carmel talked me into it and I ended up doing that. So I mean that was a, what did I do, like two and a half months of training to actually get up to that? CARMEL: Yeah, I don't remember having to talk you into it. I think you were like, "Hey, I think I could do this." And we were like, "Well, make your training plan. You can totally do it." TRISTAN: Yeah. Yeah, something like that. So, you start to run and everything and then I think she and Cyprian were coming by every half hour leaving treats on the treadmill and spraying me with water bottles and stuff. So, you've got your camaraderie on the inside and then when there's not some massive thing that you're working on or accomplish that day, Carmel and I invented the pizza cupcake, a lot of fun, small things that like, "Oh, this is today's victory. I have changed the culinary world." MARK: Can you, Carmel, just share for everybody listening again what running a marathon in a dome looks like? CARMEL: So, we have a treadmill there and at the beginning of the year, the treadmill was kind of adjacent to the window and then we found that Cyprian kept falling off of it because he was looking out the window, and so we put it in front of the window and then at least you had the same Mars landscape to look at while you're running, but for the most part you have to watch a lot of movies because running a marathon in general is pretty time consuming depending on how fast you're grounding. Either way, it's a lot of movement and listening to movies or watching movies or listening to podcasts or something, it's kind of the only way to take away from the monotony of one foot in front of the other for so darn long. MARK: Yeah, and for those listening again, can you appreciate what they're sharing? They're running marathons on a treadmill and trust me, this isn't a state-of-the-art brand new high tech thing, in front of, I wouldn't say a window, my memory is it was the window, and it is about the size of maybe a large pizza pan. It's just a circle and you're looking out at volcanic rock. There's nothing out there. So, just trying to put that in perspective. Crazy kinds of stuff. Did you want to share? Go ahead. I think I cut you off. CARMEL: Oh, you're okay. Sometimes there were clouds so that really broke it up and made it a little change of scenery. But yeah, it was pretty monotonous the whole time when you're running, but at the same time, that's the thing that's breaking the other monotonous cycle of your life, which is research and cooking food and being around the same people all day every day, and so that's actually kind of an escape is doing something pretty monotonous. It's funny that way. MARK: Let's shift gears just a little bit. These stay-in-place orders really are having an impact on people. I've been talking with some lawyers in recent weeks, several of whom work in the domestic relations space and they're reporting tremendous increase in families, whether it's just some abuse kinds of things going on to just divorce. People are getting a little crazy and stir crazy. A lot of people I heard in Paris for instance, you're not allowed to exercise outside now and I'd love for you guys to talk about what going outside meant for you, both in terms of how it was done and what it meant for you, but Michigan has just issued an order forbidding contact now with friends and family in terms of extended, you are not to go out and visit with anybody. You can only interact with people that are in your physical home. MARK: Now, of course, I guess you can say hi or smile at somebody at the grocery store. But that's a different thing. So, in light of the challenges, so many are having to face, that have never dealt with anything like this, and for some it's going to be four to six weeks. Others, it might be eight to 10 weeks, nothing like 366 days. But perhaps through the context of sharing your stories, how you survived and things, you could share some tips and insights into how people going through these stay-at-home, stay-in-place orders can again, come out the other side without too many bruises and nobody's killed each other. So, I'll let you guys chat here for a little bit on that. TRISTAN: Yeah well, I mean part of it is this is being forced on everyone, where as we got to volunteer. So we had to begin ours with slightly different mindset, which helps out. But I think, when you go into something like this, the problems that occur sort of, I mean you, you can imagine them being created because you're stuck inside and can't leave and there's no communication, whatever. But really, wherever you go, like when you go on a vacation, your problems are waiting for you when you get back because you were just on vacation. And when you go into isolation. You're just taking your life and your problems with you. So, I would argue that the people who are getting to spend a month with their spouse and then realize they can't stand the way they chew food and they get divorced, probably had other issues, it was likely not the the quarantine them split them all up. TRISTAN: So if you're going to be stuck somewhere and you can't go to the bars and hang with all your friends and do the normal life distraction stuff that defined your existence before all of this, you're going to, whether you realize it or not, meet yourself in some ways and realize where your priorities lay, the character traits that you actually enjoy and hate about the people you're living with. Even start to ask existential questions maybe. I know in the last like couple of weeks I've been like, what am I doing with my life and trying to just figure some of that stuff out again because I've got the time now. MARK: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's great. You're so spot on. Carmel. CARMEL: Yeah, I think that's really well put, especially because we did choose to be isolated and so, it takes a special kind of special to even want to do that. And I mean honestly, isolation isn't for everyone and we know that because there are only certain people that volunteer for isolation studies or to go to other planets or to live on the ISS or go to Antarctica. Not everyone's volunteering to do that because it just doesn't mesh well with them, and you see people who choose to overwinter in Antarctica year after year. They enjoy it or they are at least able to get through it because that matches with that personality. So, having this forced upon everyone in the world right now really is kind of taking a lifestyle choice for some people and making it a mandatory lifestyle. So, finding coping mechanisms, things that help you make your life as easy as possible for where you are at right now is probably the best step for a lot of people because they might enjoy certain aspects of it, but they definitely aren't going to enjoy everything about it, as we did as well. There are certain things I miss terribly about the dome and then there are some things I'm like, I never need to go back there again for others. MARK: What would you say you missed? I find that interesting. TRISTAN: Oh, the food. CARMEL: The food. I actually kind of do miss the isolation because we were up there and you could just get so much work done and you didn't have a lot of distractions in some ways and I had a treadmill that I could run on most of the time because a couple of weeks ago they took away the gym at work and so now you're forced to exercise outside except for that it's snowing all the time, and they closed the park and they closed the reservation and you literally can't leave a one mile square radius anymore. And so, I'm going a little crazy for other reasons right now. MARK: You raised the term coping mechanisms and I think that's a good, can we explore that a little bit and just have both of you talk, what were your coping mechanisms? What really worked for you and if there was something that you tried and didn't, I'd love to hear that as well. TRISTAN: Yeah, I mean, I would say, part of the reason that we had said food was such a great thing is because Carmel's mom actually taught her to cook very well and I got to be sous chef two days out of the week inventing new things or learning how to make old favorites, whatever. We actually pulled off a super respectable salmon eggs Benedict, a double layer chocolate cake, the aforementioned pizza cupcakes. We made Swedish meat, no, not Swedish meatballs, oh, what were the meatballs we made? Italian meatballs or something and they were actually better than the meatballs at the restaurant we went to when we all got out. So it was a bit of a playing around and creative aspect there. MARK: I was working on my dissertation while I was there so I had some of my personal work as well. Some of my best selling tee shirts, I came up with the ideas and drew them while I was up there because I had the time. You sort of have the option between say, for people going through isolation now, you can do something that is numbing like getting through your favorite series or watching Battlestar, all four seasons, over the course of two weeks and you're sort of pausing yourself as a person in your life while you enjoy something. Or you could say, well I'm going to do something productive or creative and actually find ways to engage the part of yourself that wants to learn the language or an instrument or start doing art or becoming an incredible bonsai Shaffer person. One of those will actually let you survive a year and one of them will let you get through a couple of weeks. TRISTAN: So, I think we're actually going to start to see as these stay- at-home orders carry on, more problems, because a lot of people are doing the numbing route, where they're investing heavily in say, television or whatever, something that's sort of a passive hobby, instead of something that actually lends meaning to what they're doing and helps them feel like they are progressing. MARK: Following up on that, I get concerned, too, about alcohol abuse. If there's not, the numbing kind of thing, just to kind of get through it and it's so easy to just casually increase and increase and increase and what becomes after dinner or before dinner beverage or two, you have a little bit at lunch, you have some in the afternoon. What the heck? I've got another beer or so in the fridge to get the nine o'clock movie and on and on. Carmel, how about you? Your thoughts. CARMEL: Yeah, I think, I have lots of thoughts. I've been thinking about this for five years now. I think right now it's okay to acknowledge that it sucks. Nobody's really having a great time right now and it's okay to say, this is not where we wanted to be and it's changing everything and it's hard, but what can we gain out of it? And it's okay to live in the grumpy mood for a little bit, but then the thing that's going to bring you out of it is planning and having a goal for the day, or I had one person who was retired, they told me the other week, I have at least one thing I have to accomplish every day, even if it's just making my bed or it's stacking firewood or something else. I have to write on the list, I did one thing every day because then once you do one, it'll be find, you'll start doing a bunch of other things, but if you sit in bed first thing in the morning and start watching a show, then it's six shows later, you're like, hmm, I guess I'm kind of hungry now and I might make something or I might just eat leftovers. And so having things to do in your day that need to be done that day is actually helpful because you have a drive and a reason to go. CARMEL: And I'm so thankful that I am still working right now because I have something that makes me, I mean, I would be not getting out of bed otherwise, but you know I have a purpose and I am contributing every single day right now and that gives me a lot of fulfillment knowing that I am still able to do this and I'm not forced to be at home because that would be extremely challenging for anyone to be told, you can't go to work, you're still getting paid, but then you're like, well heck, what am I even contributing right now? So, as Tristan said, coming up with workouts or a craft or a hobby or something you want to master that gives you a purpose for every single day. It's very easy for all your days to run together and to not know what day of the week it is, but if you have something that keeps you going forward every single day, that's a longterm game plan versus a short term plan. MARK: I obviously vicariously went through this experience just as a parent and trying to stay in touch and so I kind of lived the experiment as an earthling. It seemed apparent to me that two coping mechanisms that were very, very effective, and I think not only for the two of you, but that became effective and helped others in the dome, and that would be the use of humor and the ability to get outside. Now, I want to underscore for people listening, getting outside of the dome is not like you get to walk through the air lock and take your tee shirt off and get a little sun and go for a run up the hill. You're in spacesuits, you don't get the fresh air, the sun isn't on your skin for 366 days. Either both of you, if you would just share some thoughts about the importance of, did that matter? How did it matter, in terms of humor or just a change of scenery? TRISTAN: Yeah, I mean the big thing is it's a new stimulus. So, instead of the treadmill to try and escape from whatever's going on or doing our work or our hobbies, you actually can go over the landscape. The physical exertion is, while it has the same unpleasantness as jogging for a long time, it can at the same time feel cathartic and like you're moving your body because you are, so it can help meet some of your exercise goals and help you workout some stress. TRISTAN: But we were lucky enough that, I don't know if it's on the entire mountain, but we had several in the local area we were allowed to explore, but we had lava tubes so you could schedule an EVA, and do all this paperwork and get everything set up, and then the next day, you suit up and go outside and your teams and everything. And instead of just walking around on a barren landscape, which can be beautiful for its own aesthetic reasons, you're getting to wiggle through strange holes and cracks and find giant house-sized volumes under the lava that are totally empty or have a little skylight at the top with a shaft of light and trees and it's dark and a little scary but super pretty, and just this really wonderful fun exploring thing. And that was a massive stimulus and change of pace compared to whatever was going on inside the dome because we had dozens of these lava tubes and pits and everything that you could explore. MARK: Very cool. Carmel. CARMEL: Yeah, I agree that those are probably, I'd say humor, going outside, and exercise are the top three mechanisms for keeping yourself sane while you're there. Tristan was the diffuser of almost all situations we had when anything would get tense, he'd crack a joke about something and we'd be laughing and then everything would be better or at least, it would be better than it was before. And so, one of the most valuable roles you have in a crew is to have humor, to maintain humor around a situation. You can be serious and get your work done, but being lighthearted for certain things is absolutely necessary because if you can't laugh about it then you're going to be in a world of hurt later. CARMEL: And I agree, going outside was huge and we did have, most of our EVAs were, our extra vehicular activities, [inaudible 00:30:28] outside. We put on our space suit and most of them were meant for doing geology research or lava tubes or the different tasks that the research team had for us to do out there. But sometimes it was just to go have fun because things would be so tense. You're like, I just need to go outside and maybe walk in a straight line because you can only do like 21 steps in the dome before you have to turn and round a corner, and you can't just keep doing laps. You have to go back and forth and just go outside and use your long distance vision and stretch all your muscles and you can even just run down the road if you wanted to, just totally different than being inside, and so mixing up that, like Tristan said, the stimuli of being indoors versus outdoors was really, really important. MARK: Yeah, I'm finding that's what's helping me right now. Now I telecommute so a stay-at-home order isn't quite the same impact for my wife and I than with other family situations perhaps, but I've been getting out. Since the stay-at-home, Tristan, you might be impressed here with your old man. I put 150 miles on my bike since the stay-at-home, just get outside, you can still socially distance. Nobody's within six feet of me, but I'm pedaling like crazy, and it's just been good. It really does make a difference, even just in mood. CARMEL: Fresh air is super good for everyone. That's got to be good for, if you are sick, having some fresh air go through your lungs and if you're not sick, helping keep yourself healthy and moving strong. MARK: Well, I feel like I've taken a lot of your time here and I so, so appreciate your willingness of both of you to share a little bit with the ALPS audience. Before I let you go, do you have one final tip or comment you'd like to share in terms of just, this is your chance to say it again, people that are just trying to make it work and figure out how not to go stir crazy. A final thought from each of you. TRISTAN: Yeah, I mean, I'd say the biggest is you've got the time down to let your vices squeeze you. So try and balance that out with less immediately fun but more longterm productive goals because it sucks now. Nobody wants to go and work out for two hours a day or do that paperwork that's lying around but actually producing something instead of just indulging in something will make four weeks feel a lot more like four and less like 10. MARK: Yeah, yeah. Carmel. CARMEL: I like that. I like that a lot. I also think, finding more than one thing, because one of my downfalls in the dome was that running was my thing and then anytime the treadmill wasn't available, whether it was power or it was broken or whatever, I was a wreck because I just didn't have the ability to do my one coping mechanism, and so having a whole suite of them, whether it's painting or you have some online videos you could do or a whole variety of things that make you happy and are helping you and can be productive at the same time, that would be good because if all of a sudden the gym closes and then it's bad weather outside. Then now you're like, well, what am I supposed to do? And you have all this stress or anxiety built up that I can't get rid of. You need to have a whole suite of things you can do in order to be able to relieve that. MARK: Yeah. To that, I would like to add in terms of the comments both of you shared. Just as a family member that was on earth during this whole experience, I would like to underscore the importance of social connectivity that both Carmel and Tristan talked about earlier in this podcast. We can't necessarily go out and meet friends at the local brew pub or something and have a nice evening, but there are alternatives, and to try to just call a little bit more, talk on the phone, do some Zoom meetings with family. We've done a little bit of this with some of the kids and that's been a lot of fun. MARK: So, don't underestimate as well, the value of staying socially connected. I think that can make a big difference. Well, that brings the podcast to an end. To those of you listening, thank you very much for taking the time. I hope you found something of value and please don't hesitate to reach out to me at ALPS. It's m bass, mbass, B-A-S-S @alpsinsurance.com. Happy to try and help in terms of any questions, concerns you might have on ethics, risk management, or even just getting through a stay-at-home order. That's it, folks. Have a good one. Bye bye.

It is no secret that our financial plan will shift and change throughout our lives. However, this is even more prevalent the closer we get to retirement. Tony will discuss the different retirement planning stages and what the focus should be when you hit these checkpoints. Important Links Website: http://www.yourplanningpros.com Call: 844-707-7381 ----more---- Transcript Of Today's Show: Mark: Hey everybody, welcome into this edition of Plan With The Tax Man, with [Tony Mauro 00:00:00:04]. Mark and I... I am Mark. Mark and Tony here talking about investing, finance and retirement. How are you doing bud? Tony Mauro: I'm doing well. Thank you. Mark: Better than me apparently. I'm all messed up today. Everything had been going okay so far? Tony Mauro: It's been going good. You know we're in the throws of tax seasons, so it's a very busy time. But we know that every year, so it's not like it's a surprise. Mark: Right. It's certainly been an interesting few weeks with everything going on between campaign stuff and financial stuff with a Coronavirus stuff. There's been lots of things going on over the last couple of weeks. But I'm going to focus right now here on a news article I saw when I ask you about this. That Bloomberg, obviously one of the gents running, has stated that unlike... I guess the point is he's kind of poking fun at the current president maybe. That he'll sell off all his financial data and media company if he was to win and become elected. It's worth estimated, I guess around 60 billion. My big question is not from a political standpoint, but how many buyers could there be for such a thing? Maybe Disney, they buy everything. Tony Mauro: That's right. It would have to be somebody, a big company to buy something like that from him, because his wealth... If you ever looked at him like maybe some people were looking at our current president, he's into a lot of things and it would have to be a large company. Somebody like, say, an At&T, General Electric, somebody like that, somebody huge. Maybe it'll be one of these tech companies who knows, Google and Amazon, some of these companies are sitting on large piles of cash. Not probably that much, but it would have to be somebody like that. But it is interesting that they're kind of going back and forth to so-called billionaires on... Obviously he's making fun of the president a little bit, but he'd be willing to give up all his [crosstalk 00:01:56] what's happening now. Mark: Now you kind of can't help but see the jab in there, but at the same time, I mean 60 billion. That's a pretty hefty price tag. So it would have to be definitely the right suitor, I'm sure. Tony Mauro: [crosstalk 00:02:10]. Mark: We'll see how that all plays out as the year goes along. Obviously we're just in March right now, so plenty of time to go. But we'll see how things rock and roll. But for our conversation today, Tony, our main portion of our podcast, I want to talk about the stages of retirement planning. What I've done is, I've kind of broken them down into a couple of categories. Basically let's just assume for the sake of the argument and for the podcast today, that people are retiring at the age of 65. That's the number we all kind of associate anyway. So let's use that as our median number and say, let's talk through some stages. Stage one being those folks who, like myself, are about 15 years away or so from retirement. Maybe you're right around 50, maybe you're 49, 50, 51. What are some main financial things, some things we should start to focus on if we're this I guess preliminary stage, stage one if you will, of thinking about retirement planning? 15 years out. Tony Mauro: 15 years out, and I'm right there with you. I think about it myself, my brother who just turned 50. It's like a switch went off with him, all of a sudden he's thinking about this more as well. So that seems to be kind of the age, 15 years or so out. But I think there's a number of things we could talk about here, but a few of them basically... I mean for me, one of the most important things is getting out and staying out of debt, trying to eliminate as much of that as you can in these next 15 years. So that you can not have those pressures you have when you're younger of, I've got to pay all these bills. It makes it a lot easier to live on less if you don't have all that debt. That'd be the number one I would say. Number two is, you've got to start thinking about what you want at the end in forms of different income streams and what you are going to have. Tony Mauro: This is where the planning starts to come in, you can't wait until the last day to do this. You've got to kind of start planning on, here's where I'm at now, here's where I want to be and am I going to have enough? If not, how am I going to fix that? Then that opens up a whole new conversation. But that would be something else. Then the last thing would be, this is probably the last time, especially in today's market, that you want to be increasing your risk in your portfolio. If anything you want to start, if you're haven't already, getting your diversification intact and starting to take a little bit less risk for these next 15 years. Not I'm saying you have to go all the way, all the cash or anything like that, but certainly need to take a look at that and your appetite for that as you get a little closer. Mark: Right. Now, I think that's a good idea. So 15 years out, you're really kind of in that beginning stage, you're starting to think about it. I think those are some good bullet points you gave us there, Tony, to start kind of considering. So let's move it into stage two and say okay, well maybe we find ourselves now at the 10 year window. Okay, so maybe we're 55, 56, somewhere in that neighborhood. We're starting to amp this up. Give us some bullet points, some ideas to start ticking this thing closer. Tony Mauro: So a couple things we can do right off the bat and this is easily obtainable, is to get a statement not only from social security as to what your potential benefit will be at 65, maybe 67, 70. Finding out what your full retirement age will be for them, because they have increased it for us a little bit. Doing the same thing with any pensions that you might have. Not as many people have the old fashioned pensions, but if you do, you want to get a rough estimate of what your monthly benefit will be there. Tony Mauro: I think another thing too is you got to start thinking about, because I know I will be. Okay, when do I really want to call it quit? Is it going to be 65, is it going to be 70, maybe I continue to work. Again, big picture stuff, but you need this start narrowing it down a little bit. That would be something to think about. Then last is, because it's all based on, I think for me again it's close to home. Because I want to know what people want to do in retirement. Because for me, it's not going to be the same as you or somebody else, but that's what it's all about for me, is what I actually want to do. And am I going to have enough money to do that or not? Mark: Right. Of course everybody is different, but you are starting to pull these things together. You starting to determine or maybe getting closer and have an idea of where you want to retire, how you want to retire, what do you want it to look like? What are you wanting to do? Settle a lot of those things. I mean hopefully you've been thinking about that all along, but I think it starts to... naturally it starts to ramp up in our mind as we get closer, we start to have more conversations over dinner with our spouse and daydream maybe if you will, of things you want to do, so on and so forth. Mark: All this kind of takes up and takes forward, but then we start to get to the five year window. Now hopefully by now we have actually started taking action on many of these items, hopefully anyway. But either way, let's talk about five years out. Now, let's just say, for the sake of the argument, we're 60 and it's right around the corner. Maybe 62 is looking better, maybe it's 65, maybe it's 67, whatever the case is. But what are some of the more serious things to consider here? Tony Mauro: So now we're starting to get into a little more of a tighter funnel here. Because we're starting to come closer to the end. I think for a lot of people it's important, just like you said, is to think about, okay, what are we going to do for that date? What are we going to kind of pencil in, if you will, as to at least when we're going to start? The other thing I think, if you haven't already, you really need to take a serious look and not have a lot of your retirement assets tied up, maybe in equities. Now I'm not saying again move everything. Tony Mauro: But you should be working with someone to assure that your portfolio or nest egg is well diversified and not taking the risks like a 25 year old would be, looking for growth. Because you don't have the time to make up those potential losses if they should occur. Then I think last probably is again, trying to get a tighter number on what streams of income are going to come in and how much, because you're getting close now and you want to firm up some of these numbers that you've been talking about over the last five years or so. Mark: Right. When you're in that five year window, Tony, it's often referred to as the retirement red zone or the financial red zone or whatever. Hopefully you're working with an advisor at this point. Now, it's never too late, it's one of those things where you don't want to give somebody the impression they'd say, well, you've waited till five years out. Oh well, tough noogies. You can still come in- Tony Mauro: There's always some things. Mark: Always some things you can be doing, but hopefully you've been addressing some of these ahead of time. Working with an advisor is going to help you go through these different stages. I think the stages will obviously, if you even started with an advisor 15 years out, the level of working with him, it's going to slowly kind of amp up as well. As you're moving through this and getting closer, the activity between you two should be increasing as well. Or am I off there? Tony Mauro: No, I think you're exactly right. We work mostly and have the most contact with our pre-retirees and retirees, because of the stage that they're at. In the growth stage, yes, you're monitoring the plan and making some small changes, but that's pretty much it. As goals change, adjusting, but retirees, it becomes a whole different thing, because you've got to make sure that you've got enough income coming. Make sure your taxes are paid and all this other stuff. So, yeah. Mark: Okay. We've hit all these, we've hit these windows, the 15, the 10, the five, excuse me. So now Tony, well, it's the big day. We're on the day of retirement, what are the absolute essential things that we should have and need to have figured out at this point? Tony Mauro: Well at this point, hopefully you've covered everything that we just talked about and you have your income sources in place, you know what they are. Then I think an important add on is, if they have never been taxed, make sure that your taxes are being withheld or your taxes are being paid. So you don't have a surprise come tax time that you owe a large tax bill. Then you need to have a really good grasp, and a lot of people don't. Because they've never done it, is to what our monthly expenses are going to be, our monthly budget? What do we spend in that we have to spend money on? Then what's the fun stuff? Another thing is, even though you are in retirement, I still think there's a need for some sort of emergency fund. Tony Mauro: It doesn't need to be maybe to the extent of when during your earning years, but just something in case something happens. You've got some reserves, you're not wondering and maybe getting into debt to replace something or something like that. Then on the investment side, and I see it all the time on the tax side of our business. Retirees come in, they have a handful of CDs, they're getting 0.1% and they're wondering why they don't have enough income. You got to have something that's going to, at least with part of your money, to outpace inflation. Mark: Right. No, definitely. I'll go back to the market drop a couple of weeks ago. Yeah, a couple of weeks ago, I guess at this point. The big first big day, I'm thinking about it from a standpoint of I was having a conversation with someone and we were talking about the diversification. So in 2019, it was a good year. I mean you had people overall 2019 ended up well. There are a lot of people saying that the average was somewhere between 25, 30%, right? Tony Mauro: Yeah. Mark: You have different people, I've heard from folks saying, well I didn't make 30% and I was upset with my advisor for it. It's like, well, a lot of that had to do with probably how you're allocated based on your risk tolerance, where you're at in life. Like the people that were making 30% that was mostly, if I'm not mistaken, all large cap, which is going to put you in a different risk category. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, because this is what you do every day. But that's the whole purpose of an advisor is to mitigate some of that. So if you were making 10, 12, 15, 17 you still were having a good year. That was based on the fact of your risk tolerance. Now in a case where the market's been dropping due to the Coronavirus, you're probably not losing as much as the 3% or the 4%. because again, you're diversified. Am I right in that? Tony Mauro: No, you're too right on it. Yes, because as the markets have chugged up over the last four or five years, everybody's now thinking that no matter what their risk tolerance is, they should be getting anywhere 15, 20%. I mean something higher. What I'm telling them, because I have had a couple of clients, they're the pre-retirement, but they said the same thing. Hey, the market's up X, but we only got X. I'm quick to remind them that, hey, it's because here's the way we're invested based on your risk tolerance and your nearest to retirement. Tony Mauro: We can't afford to take those risks. If you want to take those risks, I can make it very easy for you. We'll go out, we'll just basically drop everything and we'll buy an ETF in the S&P fund. You'll get the returns of the market, but you're also going to get the losses when they happen as well. So sometimes I have to try to correct what I call... I tell them what I feel like it's irrational thinking, that if you're basically using advisor to outperform the market, I think you're going to be disappointed in all cases. That doesn't mean we're bad. It just means that, we're out there trying to devise a portfolio that is going to work for you and your risk tolerance. Mark: Right. Kind of weathering multiple storms. Yeah. I think that's where, of course, we've talked many times on the podcast, the greed factor that we all possess. And there's nothing wrong. It doesn't make you a bad person. You go, man, I want to make 30% too. But if you're 60 chasing 30%, it's probably not the best idea in last year's market in case of something like this. If you want to kind of use the conversation about the market downturn so far, early this year. We had multiple 10% drops in 19, yet it's still finished up almost 30%. Tony Mauro: It still finished up. Mark: Right. So you just don't know until as the year plays out. That's why investing is a longterm proposition, right? Tony Mauro: Long-term proposition. In fact, I just had a funny story. I had a client who just emailed me two days ago. He's a client that isn't involved too much in this portfolio, but he started listing off all these points that have been happening the last few weeks. Tony Mauro: He gets it from the news- Mark: Of course, right. Tony Mauro: ... of course, the internet. He pointed to China and the Coronavirus, maybe we should get out of any investments that hold anything over there, the economy. All the way down to if the democratic president becomes president, there's going to be a market correction. And I said, well, you're watching way too much [crosstalk 00:00:14:26]. We're longterm here. I said this is always happens. It may not be these points, but there's always something going on and the markets could be turbulent over the next six, eight months. But in the end, over time you have to view it as longterm, number one. But as you get closer to retirement, to our point, you can't be in that whirlwind of trying to chase those types of returns. Mark: Now I think that's a great point. Well, I want to wrap this up here with our stages of retirement. So we went through 15, 10 and five. We also hit the big day of actual retirement. Of course the great thing about a podcast folks is, if you're listening to us and we tend to sometimes veer off target, kind of like we did just a second ago. But I think there were some good points in there. You can always go back and re-listen to it. You can pause, rewind, all those kinds of things and of course subscribe to the podcast so that you always get new episodes when they come out. You can listen to past episodes by going to yourplanningpros.com, that's yourplanningpros.com. But we've hit retirement. We went, I guess, like I said, 15, 10, five, the big day, we retire. That's it. Tony, we're done. There's nothing else to think about after you retire with a retirement plan on the day you retire. No. Tony Mauro: I would say no [crosstalk 00:15:30] You could live anywhere from zero to 30 years from retirement, depending when you go and your longevity. So [crosstalk 00:15:38]. Mark: It should be a living document, it should flow and change with you through retirement. Now you need to think about post-retirement. Tony Mauro: Yes. This is an important area, because again, a lot of retirees could spend 10 to 15, 20 years in this stage. Which is a long time and things change. I think a couple things they need to think about is a rising health costs and medical expenses and how that's going to affect their monthly cashflow, number one. But number two is, it's that real grim reaper that everybody thinks about and it isn't death. It's the dreaded nursing home. [crosstalk 00:16:14] about the possibility of ending up there, losing all your money. Everybody says that, nobody comes and says, well, maybe I should take this out of my name now and do this with it. I always ask them why? It's always because they are afraid that they're going to lose it if they go in a nursing home. Tony Mauro: So I think there needs to be some planning around that really, that probably should have been done about 10, 15 years earlier. Not at this point, because generally there's not a ton of options there. But I think there's that. I think there's the fact of facing that there's going to be an end for all of us, making sure that your end and your legacy is carried out like you want it. I think the other thing is, trying to get your assets depending on where they're at, so they're transitioned to the next generation as smoothly as possible, and definitely the most efficient tax way possible. The optimized way, because there are some mistakes that people make, then their heirs end up paying more taxes than they should. Mark: Yeah, definitely. Of course, you could see our episode, our podcast on... We just had not too long ago on some of that. We covered that topic. Of course the new elimination of the stretch IRA within the secure act also changes how you're going to try to leave money to your heirs in a tax efficient way and all that kind of stuff. So there's definitely a lot more planning that has to go involved. The idea of, again, stages of retirement planning. There's multiple stages you may find yourself in, whether you're in stage one and you're 15 years away like I am. Mark: Or you're in stage two, you're 10 years away, or you're five years away, or you're getting close. Or even after retirement there's still planning that needs to be done to make sure that we're being as efficient and hopefully smooth as we can try to keep it. Anyway, that's the idea. There's always going to be something going on. But you want to try to keep it as smooth as we can through retirement, because God willing, you're not going to be retired for just a couple of years. You're going to be retired for many years, nowadays possibly 40. Tony Mauro: Yeah, possibly. Mark: It's pretty crazy when you think about that, versus our parents or our grandparents. So that's going to do it for our main show here on Plan With The Tax Man, with Tony Mauro. But before we go, I want to ask Tony something a little fun getting to know you. Since it is tax season and I know this gets to be your hectic time. What do you do to kind of chill out, remove some stress and work your way through this hectic busy month or two? Tony Mauro: Sure. It is stressful, but I think everybody deals with stress and it is a more serious thing than I used to give it credit for. But now that I get a little older, I see people having some health problems and different things. So very mindful of it, not only during the day. But I'll tell you what I like to do, I do something at the start of the day and believe it or not, I actually pay for a journal that I actually kind of journal my day, what I'm going to try to accomplish? Mark: Really? Okay. Tony Mauro: What's going to make it a good day? Then of course try to get some exercise. For me that works, I have to actually pay for that. You think I could just write that down on my own, but I have that, I like it. So that's what I aspire to do. But to relieve my stress really, I like to get away and tune out. I'm not a big TV watcher, but I do like to read and I do like to do some yoga, because for me that's... I struggled so much with it just to maintain those little poses. [crosstalk 00:00:19:21]. Mark: It's tough, isn't it? Some of those are pretty complicated. I started doing that as well myself.,I had some back injuries. It's actually really helpful. Tony Mauro: It is, but I'd say to people, you've got to find something that works for you. Don't think that stress isn't real, because I think it is definitely real. Mark: No, it's absolutely, and it causes so many hidden things. I think we've gotten much better as a society and as a people understanding how stress affects us through the years versus, again, like even our parents or our grandparents. So certainly beneficial there. Good to hear that everybody takes a time or we should be taking the time to distress once in a while. Well folks, there you go. That's going to do it for this week, this episode on Plan With The Tax Man. If you have questions about what stage of retirement planning you might be in or you need some help getting through those stages, whether you've gotten this through an email blast from Tony or you've gone to the website, or you subscribe to it on whatever platform. We have Apple or Google or Spotify or Stitcher, definitely reach out and have a conversation with them. Mark: They are Des Moines professional alternative at Tax Doctor Inc. You want to always talk with a professional about your specific situation before you take action. Because again, we're talking in generalities here on the podcast for a wide audience. So if you want to talk about the stage you might find yourself in, whether you're 15 years away or 10 years away or five years away, give them a call, get on the counter, have a chat at (844) 707-7381, that's (844) 707-7381 or go to yourplanningpros.com, that's your planning pros.com. Tony's been helping families in the area for more than 23 years. He's an EA and a CFP and my friend. Thanks for your time, buddy. I hope you have a great week. Tony Mauro: All right, you take care. We'll talk to you next time. Mark: We'll see you next time in a couple of weeks on more with Plan With The Tax Man, with Tony Mauro.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Todd: So, Mark, um, you mentioned that your wife is Japanese.Mark: That's right.Todd: Ok, and how long have you been married?Mark: We finally got married in April of 1998 but it took us a while to get to that stage.Todd: Ok, well, what's it like being in an international marriage?Mark: I really enjoy it. There are different challenges, I mean any marriage has got challenges, and just have different cultures and different backgrounds and different languages, despite the fact that we both speak both our first languages. Yeah, it has different challenges but that makes it fun.Todd: You said that your wife speaks to you in Japanese and you speak to her in English?Mark: No it's fifty-fifty really. It really depends on what we're talking about: if we're watching an English movie or something on TV in English we'll speak in English; if we're reading the Japanese newspaper and we find something interesting we will probably speak in Japanese.Todd: Ok, well, actually, how did you meet?Mark: Through my roommate in Japan, how many years ago now, probably about 15 years ago…Todd: A while backMark: …introduced us. Yeah, it's been a long time.Todd: That's cool. Is there anything that's hard about having an international marriage?Mark: I suppose it means that you're always away from one person's family. I suppose that's the hardest thing. I'm in Japan now so I'm a long way from my family; when we lived in New Zealand before, my wife was a long way from her family.Todd: That's tough, that is tough. So how long did you live together in New Zealand?Mark: We were there for about 4 years,…I think. Yeah, yeah, approximately 4 years in New Zealand.Todd: Now, have you lived in any other countries together?Mark: No, no, not together, it's either been Japan or New Zealand.Todd: Do you have any plans as to which country you're going to settle in?Mark: Now that sounds very permanent to me!Todd: So you never know?Mark: Never know.Todd: Alright, thanks a lot, Mark.

For decades, Harvard's MBA program has been primarily focused on the traditional model of entrepreneurship. In the past 6 years an elective course on the acquisition of established businesses has been attracting as many as 30% of the program's candidates. We had the pleasure of sitting down with Royce Yudkoff, who teaches the course “Entrepreneurship For Acquisition” at Harvard Business School's MBA program. Here at Quiet Light we've also had the honor of collaborating on the course for the past 5 years. Today, we delve into the details of how Harvard is sending experienced professionals out into the business acquisition marketplace with hands-on experience that is invaluable to their success. The trend toward real-life marketplace experience as a replacement for textbooks has taken hold in Harvard's MBA program. These case-study and field guide learning modules are teaching candidates the key ways to enter and be successful in the acquisition arena. The course Royce teaches alongside Professor Richard Ruback is focused on how to screen potential acquisition targets, do the financing, negotiate the typical deal terms, and do due diligence when buying a small business. Episode Highlights: Harvard MBAs are on average 28-35 years old so all they come into the program with professional experience. The course works with real life companies and case studies so students learn about how companies succeed in buying existing businesses. The course follows the entire arc of buying a small business from the search, to the financing, through due diligence, and up to the transition of ownership. The participants are learning how weaving good business practices from the very start of the process leads to better chances of ROI and growth. Royce explains how the candidates are taught the best financial practices for buying for a business, whether through traditional bank or private equity investment. The course follows students through the program and beyond by performing surveys and gathering statistics on success rates for those who go on to acquire companies. Royce shares the single most common contributor to the success and non-success in the search and acquisition process and what he advises all buyers to look for in a potentially successful business. Transcription: Mark: Joe did you know that a dream of mine that has gone unfulfilled in my life was to attend the Harvard Business School? Joe: I didn't know that knowing that your nickname was slacker in college I would think that'd be the last dream you could ever have. Mark: Well, we technically changed my name my last year mainly because I had a t-shirt that said slacker on it. And it made a terrible first impression when you walked in the class the first day the professor sees that. You get targeted pretty quickly. Joe: You know we did a tour of Stanford last summer because I have teenage boys. We happen to be there, my kids probably won't get in; I understand 3% do. And when I graduated from college, I went to Northeastern University in Boston, when I was done I was done. I never wanted to go back to college. Touring a campus like Stanford or I imagine Harvard just at any age would make you want to go back. Mark: Yeah it's a fantastic school. I love their MBA Program there because they do things a little bit different. It's not textbook based, it's case study based. So a Harvard MBA student, when they attend that school first of all the school pretty much requires that you have real world experience. Not 100% but it's really hard to get in if you don't have any real world experience. They want people who have been out there in the field doing stuff. And the entire class structure itself is also based around case studies. So you end up with a group of people that you do these case studies with and you study real life, real business scenarios and go about how … figure out how to address those real world scenarios. It's a way of trying to replicate some of the things that they're going to actually experience when they leave Harvard Business School. So yeah a few years after I graduated college and had a job and I thought well it would be a lot of fun to attend that. I really liked the idea of it but life got in the way. Bad grades got in the way and it never was something that I actually was able to pursue. I went so far as taking a GMAT but I never actually applied. But I bring this up because for as you know for the past five years we've been working with Harvard at Quiet Light Brokerage. They have done what a lot of people that listen to this podcast know, they have really started to turn their focus towards entrepreneurship acquisition or acquisitions and entrepreneurship and the combination. And they have a whole course that they teach on it; how to build … sorry how to buy a small business and lead an entrepreneurial life through acquisitions. And for those five years, we've actually been working with them, they approached us to see if we could support their class with some supportive materials and me being the closet Harvard fan boy that I am was like absolutely that sounds really cool. Joe: Excellent, excellent. Well, I'm excited to listen to this podcast. I know that they did some studies that show the people that go through this course and the success rate that they have. And it's really more about buying versus building which is a little follow up from almost with the podcast with Walker that you had so I'm excited hear it. Mark: Yeah absolutely so there are some statistics in here, people ask us this all the time you know what percentage of buyers are successful. Well, Harvard is actually tracking that. They're taking a look at the kids who go through the courses … and I shouldn't say kids these guys are 30 years old with tons of experience. But they're looking at people who go through the courses doing acquisition and they're tracking to see how they're successful. Also in this episode, we talk about what they're teaching on the course, what they're guiding their students as far as how large of acquisitions they should be making, how to do the financing on these large acquisitions. So it's really a chock full of a lot of information that's been taught at the highest levels at one of the leading institutions in the world. Joe: And all of it hopefully and an awful lot of it can be applied to the businesses that we're listing. Because I'm going to just throw some numbers out there for those that haven't been to the website recently, we've got listings of really all shapes and sizes. But we've got a couple up there in that I think minus under LOI just under nine million dollars. Brian's got one at twice that amount. And then, of course, anything from a couple hundred thousand dollars up to that 80 million dollar range. So these larger listings that take more funding from Venture Cap money or from a larger SBA loan are really becoming more prevalent. So I think everything that these guys talk about and the book that they published as well can be very helpful to the audience here today. Mark: Absolutely let's get on to it. Mark: All right Royce, how are you? Royce: I'm great it's a pleasure to be with you today Mark. Thank you for organizing this. Mark: Oh my pleasure. I'm so glad to be able to actually finally talk to you and see you in person as well. We've been working together I guess sort of indirectly now for what four or five years? Royce: Exactly and you've been a big help to our course in Harvard Business School so we're very appreciative. I should start with a big thank you. Mark: Well it was always my dream when I was in college and then shortly after college to get my MBA at Harvard. I started looking at the GMAT and I took PEP courses for that and then life happened. And I never got around to actually doing it. I actually talked to a Harvard recruiter at one point, sat down with them and was going through that but then it never did happen. So the fact that I actually get to participate in you guys program is kind of like a dream of mine come true that I get to actually work with you guys at least indirectly if not directly as well now. All right so the Harvard Program, how long have you guys had this Entrepreneurship Through Acquisition Program? Royce: That program is now in its 6th year Mark, and for decades Harvard has had a large program teaching people about traditional entrepreneurship; what I refer to as rubbing two sticks together and make fire, meeting … going into startups. But about half a dozen years ago we started teaching about the idea of buying an established profitable company usually from a retiring founder and the idea has really created a lot of excitement at Harvard. About 30% of all of our MBA students take these courses to try if this is a potential career and learn about it; which makes us probably the largest elective course on campus. Mark: Wow, that's fantastic. Now you do this and one other professor Richard … is it Ruback? Royce: Yes Richard Ruback. So Rick and I created a course and we co-teach it and it's really become our … the center of our professional activity. Including following our students closely who go down this path. We stay very connected to them after they graduate from the program. Mark: Yeah I know that's great. So I want to make just one point about Harvard's MBA Program and again I know this because I looked at potentially participating in this program but you guys are a little bit different than other MBA programs in the way that you set up your courses right? That it's a lot of this case study sort of approach to everything is that right? Royce: I think the two differences in our programs from what most people think of as MBA is this first exactly what you said which is we do not lecture, we do not have textbooks. The whole two year program is set up around cases which are sort of short nonfiction business stories. And the discussion the faculty elicits about the decisions they require to be made. And the second difference is our students typically come to us at about age 28 and graduate at age 30. So they have six or seven years of mid-level, junior level, executive experience before coming into the classroom. So they're not kids; they're young professionals by the time they leave. Those are the two distinctions I highlight about HBS. Mark: Yeah and one of the things I love about that … so one of the knocks against university especially among the entrepreneurial community is that a lot of entrepreneurs see university degrees and MBA degrees as being almost wasted money right? Because a lot of them have become successful. But what I love about you guys program is the fact that you do require that experience is not textbook learning, its actual looking case studies. Delving in deep into these actual cases and amplifying a real world experience in the classroom setting. Royce: Yeah you're exactly right. That's the purpose of the case studies. In addition, the faculty is routinely engaged in a commercial world too and thus expecting to bring that into the classroom. And we also utilize experts like yourself Mark, and bring in work done by experts or even experts as guests into the classroom. So we try to stay very engaged with the practical commercial world. Mark: That's great. That's absolutely great. I absolutely love that. Now you guys have also … you and Rick have also put together a book. And for those watching at YouTube at … this is the book here, HBR Guide to Buying a Small Business. And you put this out two years ago is that right? Royce: Yes we'd put it out two years ago and it's been very satisfying. Our goal was to produce a very practical handbook that walks people through each step in buying a smaller firm and to try and reach beyond campus to the thousands of people who are thinking about it or wanting to do it and give them something that's just immensely practical and we've been very gratified. I think almost everyone who goes down this path ends up reading this book and we get lots of comments that it's been helpful. Mark: That's a really good book. I mean I've thumbed through it before and you know I've learned a lot in this industry by doing and that has its learning curve. Frankly, a book like this to start out would have been really really useful in shortening that learning curve. So it was a really good book and I assume that you can get this on the HBR website correct? Royce: The HBR website and even more conveniently on Amazon, so it's just an easy thing to buy and a kind of quick easy read as well. Mark: It is a quick easy read. There's large margins in there as well so that people can take notes alongside it; which is super super helpful. So all of you out there that are readers and soak up as much information add this one to your list; for sure it's definitely one to add. You're getting some good information here. All right so let's do this, let's get into some of the material that you guys actually teach in the Entrepreneurship Through Acquisition Course. What is the format and what is the structure or maybe what is the syllabus that you would look at for a typical is it on a semester basis or is it a full year? Royce: Yes it's a full year course and we start with an overview of the small firms market. Sort of what are some of the management issues in running a small firm, how do you buy small firms. And we let people sort of figure out whether this is of interest to them generally. And then the course gets really really practical. We kind of follow each step in a small firm acquisition beginning with how do you source opportunities, how do you evaluate them, how do you do due diligence, how do you finance them, and how do you negotiate the legal documents and then we move them to sort of a transition because almost always after a firm is sold the seller stays on for a while at least part time teaching the new owner the ropes. And that is somewhere between three months and 12 months part time for the seller but it's a key part of making these purchases successful. So that's how we [inaudible 00:11:59.1] we like to say we're following the arc of the small firm acquisition. Mark: Now the arc is something that our listeners are probably very familiar with. It's something that we have laid out on our site as well. I want to ask a broader question with the popularity of your course. When people think about Harvard Business School I think a lot of them think about graduates going into large financial firms you know working in Boston, working in New York, and really kind of working with a Fortune 500's out there. Do you see a lot of your students now pursuing this more entrepreneurial path? Royce: Yes I do and it's a great comment you made because I do think Harvard is viewed that way. And one of the reasons this program is important is it's highlighting the fact that the business school makes a difference in ways that help ordinary Americans. In other words we send our well trained, smart, energetic graduates into cities all across the country and they create jobs for regular people that make their lives better. I'll give you a quick example, one of our students … and this is very representative is a woman named Jennifer Rouse. She spent about five or six years as an engineer at a couple of leading manufacturing companies in the Midwest. Came to HBS to be trained as a general manager. Fell in love with the idea of running her own company. Instead of getting a job out of HBS she searched and bought a revenue cycle management company in the Pacific Northwest that essentially handles the billing for municipal ambulance services to insurance companies; very specialized complicated set of procedures. And she's grown the business from about 40 employees to 70 employees over the three years she's owned it. So it's been an enormously gratifying experience for her and profitable one. It allowed an entrepreneur who wanted to retire to get his just reward and take cash out of the company. But it's also created a lot of good paying jobs in that mid-sized city. So kind of all the way around it's exactly what our business school ought to be doing, we think. And that's what we're trying to do in this program. Mark: You know one thing I think that people don't understand about our industry and when I talk to them for the first time, they often ask “Who buys an online business?” And one thing I've found is the synergy that exists between the bootstrappers and the startups, these guys that are really really good at the hustle and they can create something amazing out of practically nothing. And then they grow up to a certain size where it now needs management and now needs … it kind of enters into that phase two and a lot of these entrepreneurs don't want to do that because they don't want to be managers. They don't want to do that additional growth step of now managing lots of people. Royce: Yeah and I think that's exactly right. These businesses reach transition point where once they needed someone who is not only energetic and smart but knew service they were providing incredibly well and 15 or 20 years later it's more about a trained manager who's got a certain managerial skills. I'll also add to your comment that there's a life cycle to entrepreneurship. You know the 60 year old entrepreneur who's made a lot of money in their smaller firm quite likely might not want to work as hard as they did when they're 30 years old. And that's a very sensible decision that the business may have a lot more potential in it in the hands of a 30 or 35 year old who's willing to put in those 60 and 70 hour weeks. And that's another transition that makes sense for everybody. Mark: Sure. I remember one client that I worked with. He had … he was selling … well just say durable goods, I won't go into exactly what he was selling, but he was sourcing all the inventory putting it in to a secondary garage and fulfilling all the orders on his own. I mean he was working 45 hours a week and have really maxed out and I asked him I said “Why are you selling them?” because business is growing, it's growing rapidly. Why not hire on some people and kind of expand to an actual warehouse. And his answer was probably the simplest most logical answer I've ever heard it was because I don't want to. Yeah, I don't want to manage people. I like doing this on my own but that's the obvious next step. Royce: Yes. Yeah, exactly and it's a very human thing and the right answer is to put the business in the hands of someone who's going maximize it. I think conversely from the perspective of a young entrepreneur through acquisition, I see this opportunity as so much lower risk than starting a company from scratch. Because you're buying an established proven profitable business with a business model that really works and an owner who will sort of do an orderly transition with you. So it's a way to express entrepreneurial desire without taking the enormous risks of a startup or having to have some idea. Mark: Right you're absolutely … and I think this is something we talked about in a recent podcast and that is the difference between buying versus building a business and how you can get that leg up and get that initial startup so much faster. There's much less friction in working with something that's already established like that. So let's do this, let's follow the arc of the deal that you had talked about a little bit earlier and let's give the listeners here and the few viewers just a little flavor as to what this arc looks like. And maybe some of the things that you guys teach in the course as well. Let's start with this how do you source your deals? This is a problem for so many buyers out there. I've talked to some buyers that are looking for a year and a half, two years for a good business. And the good ones frankly I know from experience when we put something out that's good we're going to get a lot of intent on that within four or five days and so it can be really tough. So what do you guys teach as far as sourcing deals and some of the tips that you would offer there? Royce: You're exactly right. You know sourcing is immensely difficult in a small firm space. First of all, there are two paths people go down. One, which we certainly recommend is dealing with the intermediary professionals in the small firm space. As you know there are hundreds and hundreds of these across North America. And you're required to just do an enormous amount of outreach because unlike say with real estate where there are multiple listing services, confidentiality is extremely important to these owners of smaller firms. And so you only get to see these firms by establishing relationships with reputable intermediaries. So it's a great deal of work to establish that kind of dialogue. And then on top of that, once you have done that, the majority of businesses that are for sale are not high quality businesses. They're average at best and a few of them are really good businesses. So it's an enormous outreach and sourcing process that frankly takes from the time someone starts sourcing to the time they close the average time is about 18 months to find a good quality business negotiate diligence it and close that. So … and that's 18 months of full time work. Probably the question I get asked most often by aspiring entrepreneurs through acquisition is “Is this something I can do part time?” because it would be so great to do it part time right? You could keep a full time job, earn income, and you imagine you might be able to do it next on weekends like rebuilding an old car or refinishing a basement. But the truth is I've never seen anyone do this part time. It is for everyone who goes down this road it is a demanding full time job to source, evaluate, diligence, negotiate and it takes an average of 18 months. So it's hard. Mark: What are some ways in your opinion that people can speed that up if they're really anxious to get going? Like their working a corporate job right now and they want to get out of that corporate job. Do you have any tips on how they can speed that up? Royce: Yes we see that a lot of people that have worked in a corporate job they just find it unsatisfying and they want the professional independence that comes with this kind of entrepreneurship. You know it's hard to make this go faster. I've seen people close quickly because we've seen scores and scores of people do this, I've seen people buy businesses in as little as five or six months. But I have to say my conclusion after years of doing this is that those are just flukes; that in the same way that the person struggles on for two years is a fluke. That you get some outliers but it's just really hard to make the process go faster. And one reason for that is out of those 18 months probably the last four months are spent in that deal you'll close on. You know doing that signing the LOI, diligence, financing, closing. So really you're talking about a little over a year of searching before you finally get to that deal that makes. I wish I could hurry up this process. But it's one of the reasons that I suppose this space hasn't been beat up or overcrowded is that someone has to really want this. Mark: Sure and I think that's really good advice. You're right there's some luck of the draw right? There's just some pure luck on the draw. I talked to one person years ago I was … when we first tried to do the podcast and it didn't really work, but I talked to one buyer who said that he was ready for that sort of 18 month time period and within two months something just spread across his desk and it was perfect. But he didn't have a financing lined up for it and so he had to let it go. But it was that luck of the draw. It came to him perfectly; right away if he was ready he would have been able to move on it. That actually leads well to my next question which is financing. What are you guys advising your students and what are you seeing them actually do in terms of financing some of these deals? Royce: Yeah so the typical acquisition is financed with about two thirds debt and one third equity. And let me deal with each of those. On the debt side in the small firms marketplace, it is almost universal for the sellers to take back some amount of seller paper usually 20 to 25% of the purchase price is taken back in what's on average at four, five year subordinated note. There are few exceptions to this but it's a very large percentage of the transactions. And about 45% on average of the transaction is funded by a senior bank loan. And this comes in two flavors; one, is just a regular way, a commercial bank loan will typically finance a little under half of the deal and it will be repaid over five to seven years usually from a local or regional bank. The first candidate being a bank the company has an existing relationship with. The second path is the Small Business Administration has a terrific program called the 7(a) Program. I'm sure you're familiar with this. It's administered through banks. Most of the banks that lend commercial loans also will do a 7(a) guaranteed loan. It is a wonderful loan product because they will lend against businesses that have no tangible assets; service businesses that just have cash flow. They lend up to 80% of the business. They lend over 10 years. There are no covenants. It's a very very attractive loan with a single exception that you are required to sign a personal guarantee on it. So it's something for very thoughtful consideration by the entrepreneur. But those are the two sources of debt. And as I said with the salary debt they cover the two thirds of the purchase price. One third is usually raised from friends and family. And most common is that these prospective entrepreneurs will go around and raise money in $100,000 here or $200,000 here from anywhere from six to 15 individuals and they will cut a deal to divide the prospective profits between their investor group and themselves. Because this typical small business that we see … when we talk about a small business we're talking about a company with one to two million dollars of EBITDA that might sell for five times EBITDA or 10 million dollars of which three million dollars might be equity. And so it's not that difficult to raise that amount of equity by passing the hat. Mark: I think one thing that a lot of our buyers that come into us feel is that they can't reach that level of a transaction right? They can't reach that 10 million dollar acquisition and so they start out a lot with these $200,000 or $300,000 businesses and then they find that they've effectively buying that job. So it seems like you guys are really pushing a lot of your students to think a little bit bigger than that and do … in buying a business as well. Royce: Yeah I think that's exactly right. You know I think they are … when you get to a very small business and you are the entrepreneur you're showing up every day to process out that day's work and that's that $200,000 EBIDTA business. You know when the business gets to be a million dollars you usually have some department heads who report up to you and you're coming in thinking about the week's objectives or maybe the month's objectives. And then when you get up to a business with say two million dollars in EBIDTA, you're really managing a little further it than that. So the jobs are very different along the way and so with that we tend to point our potential entrepreneurs towards the larger end of that spectrum. But entrepreneurship can surely be expressed anywhere along the spectrum. Mark: Yeah, I think a big phrase that we hear all the time in our space is work on your business rather than in your business. And it's a transition point for a lot of people. But it seems like you guys are really pushing people to start with a business that you would work on because some of that infrastructure is going to exist already. Royce: Yes I think that's right. That is our goal. We recognize that people have different resources including experience in managing and opportunity to access capital. Mark: Right. Do you have any tips for people that might be considering reaching out to friends and family? How do you get over some of the discomfort maybe with asking friends or family for investments? Royce: Yeah I get that question a lot so I do have some recommendations. I think the first recommendation is just a psychological one which is when you go to someone to ask them for an investment you really have to make yourself feel that you're not asking for a favor. It's not like you're asking for personal loan, your presenting an opportunity to that person. And it's one you believe in so sincerely that you're going to dedicate the next five or seven or eight years of your life to it. So it's very important to really be in that psychological headspace. My second recommendation is to actually start with the people who know you best. Because they're going to be really inclined if they respect you and like you to line up behind you and then it's going to make it easier to go to people who know you less well. My third recommendation is the time to approach people for investing is when you start your search; it's not when you find your company. Because what you want to do is collect a group of people who might be interested in investing and update them across the year or year and a half that you're searching. Because when you do this, it allows them to get to know you better. It shows them that you have lots of energy, it shows them your street smarts, you talk to them of that deals you looked at but ended up rejecting which gives them a sense of your high quality standards. So when you finally approach them with a deal in hand they've been expecting this and now you're making one sale, not two. You've sort of sold them on the idea that you're a hardworking and street smart entrepreneur who is being highly selective and now you're simply selling them on the merits of the business. So for that reason, it's tremendously important to approach them early and get them to follow you. It's also a much more comfortable discussion than showing up with a deal in hand because you're able to say look if you're sincerely interested in this I'll make the investment and inform you about my journey and you'll have plenty of time to decide. It takes a lot of pressure out of that discussion. When you approach the types of people I see are entrepreneurs approaching … and here you should think about people who are partners in law firms, entrepreneurs have their own small businesses, these people don't have … while they are wealthy people by normal standards they don't have the resources to invest in private equity funds. They can't just throw up a check for two million dollars or five million dollars that private equity fund would expect. So when you come to them with the opportunity to participate they would essentially as a private equity investment; it's very additive to them. It's not an opportunity they see every day to make the kind of returns you can make buying a private business. Mark: Yeah and I think … tons of really good information in there. You're right as far as that relationship is concerned when you're asking somebody for money, building that relationship over time makes that discussion a little bit easier and also gives you the flexibility. That example I brought up of the guy who started his search and didn't have his funding lined up in advance, he actually gave me that exact same point. He said had I been having these conversations with friends and family in advance I would have been able to do this deal very very quickly. But it was just way too much for him to try and call in together an investment group within a few weeks. These things don't happen in a week, they happen over months and even a year. Royce: Absolutely and as you know from your own professional experience in those last eight weeks before closing the entrepreneur is sort of fighting on multiple directions. He's dealing with a lender, he's dealing with lawyers on a purchase agreement, he's finishing his due diligence, he's dealing with investors; you just don't have time to sort of raise investment capital from scratch. Mark: That's great. All right let's talk a little bit about the transition stuff and then we're going to be rounding out as far as our time here is concerned. Now there's some stuff obviously that happens in between, we've talked about ways to search for a company and source those deals. It can take about 18 months on average depending on a little bit of the luck of the draw, talked a little bit about the finances and some of the vehicles there. So let's assume now that you find that business, you find a good opportunity, you've gone through negotiation. And I know there's a lot that we could talk about just through the negotiation stage but I want to talk a little bit about the transition period and plan. How important do you think it is to keep previous employees, previous key people, previous owners on staff and what other elements do you think are really really kind of you should almost always take these steps in a transition? Royce: The advice I give entrepreneurs through acquisition is twofold. First, the first and most important advice I give them is in your first six months don't make any important changes. You'll have lots and lots of decisions to make but if an important change is one that is expensive or hard to reverse hold off on that. Because you will be a different person at the end of six months than you are on the day you walk into that company. And if it's the kind of enduring profitable business we hope people will buy, it certainly can wait on these decisions. I also find that transition periods can be relatively short. Three to six months is usually all you need in a transition period with some occasional access to the seller after that. By the way, this is another reason why having a seller subordinated loan is important because you want the seller to be financially on side with you after the purchase. That that seller is going to introduce you to his or her important clients. They're going to make an endorsement of you as the person they're entrusting the business to. They're going to answer a lot of process and historical questions that in a small company aren't written down in any textbook. But for most of these businesses that transition can take place well over three to six months. And after all, you want to buy a business that is not so centered on the selling entrepreneur that transferring it isn't easy. In other words, if that transfer is really really really hard that might not be a business that you want to buy. So I think that's a consideration you want to have before you step in and commit to the business. But a three to six months transition I've seen works pretty well. By the way, it might be helpful as long as we're sort of at this point in the arc of buying a small business if I shared a little data we collected over the years of that success in this path. Mark: That was my next question, so perfect timing. Royce: Okay. Mark: Yes let's go there. Royce: Well we've had the chance to survey a fairly large number of entrepreneurs through acquisition and what we've found over that six years that we've been doing this is of the people who embark on a full time search to buy a company about 70 to 80% of them end up acquiring a company and closing on it and about 20 to 25% try it, give up, and go back and get jobs that are pretty much like the jobs that they had before they embarked on this path. Of course, they've spent a year or to a year and a half doing this and that hasn't been a profitable use of time except in terms of experience but they go back and get a job that tends to look like what they had three quarters of them end up closing on a company. And then we turn to the question of is this successful? It's harder to get that data because these are all private companies but over the years Rick and I have had the benefit of actually getting some very active investors in these type of small firms to share with us their financial history of all their investments. And we've collected about 60 different transactions made by a handful of professional investors and what we found is that approximately 80% of those are profitable and about 20% are unprofitable; which is a really high rate of investment success. I mean if you think of that investing in the stock market and do you get four out of five investments profitable, I mean that would be a tremendous bar of success to have. And of the investments that are made both winners and losers the average rate of return to the investors has been about 22% annually; which is also a very high return consistent with what you would expect in private equity investments. Very importantly these results don't tell any specific individual what their results are going to be. I mean you could find a company or not to find a company, you could be successful or not successful. But I think it suggests that the area is a reasonably fruitful area to try and achieve success in. That's what I take away from the data. Mark: That's really good and I get these questions all the time so I actually now have something to go back to people with. This is great. I am curious on the 20% that are not successful; do you guys have any data as to what's leaned to do at not being profitable? Royce: Yeah. Well, of course, there's always a huge element of chance as you and I have talked about earlier in this. But yes I think that there is a single most common contributor to success and non-success in the search. And that is when an entrepreneur through acquisition start searching on their very first day looking at their very first prospective deal they quite rightly set their standards unbelievably high. In other words, nothing would get them to buy the first company they see because they want to learn what's available in the market. And as they see more and more companies they gradually bring down their standards into what normal market is for a small company. In other words, they start to say okay I'm going to raise the price I offer into the range that companies transact that. I'm not going to require that this company be absolutely perfect. It's okay that it has some flaws like every company. And their quality standard gradually moves to market. How quickly they were able to learn what a small company really looks like determines how successful they're going to be. Some people never get there. Some people it takes a year to get there. Some people can do it in 60 to 90 days and they have a much better chance of buying a company in the time period. By the way Mark just as in the side the same thing is going on with sellers as I'm sure you'd recognize that person who owned a business for 30 years enters the market with a price expectation. It is well above market and as they get feedback from the market they're gradually bringing their expectations down to market or they're leaving the market. What you're looking for is the collision between those two forces entering the zone at the same time but that speed of learning is the difference between being highly likely to succeed entrepreneur through acquisition and not. Mark: A lot of the work that we do at Quiet Light Brokerage with sellers is that sphere of expectations in trying to bring them to that place. Or more importantly I guess advising them to only enter into the marketplace when their expectations have moved because it's got to happen, right? Royce: Exactly. And it's a delicate conversation as I'm sure you've experienced many times. Mark: It is you know we try to be very just blunt with people. My personal background is before I started Quiet Light Brokerage I got really good advice from an intermediary who told me to wait but then when I actually went to market with them they actually blew my expectations up higher and when I got those first offers and it's how people at the marketplace is brutally honest. You know I might be nice the marketplace isn't, they'd just be honest and blunt. And when I got those first few offers it was like a punch in the gut. Like wow okay I'm not even in the same neighborhood of what you guys are talking about. I want to leave with this question, if you were to be talking to a potential buyer and you were to give them one or two just solid pieces of advice and that's all you had time to be able give them because that's also all the time we have left, what would you tell them? Royce: I would tell them to look for an established, slow growing, slow changing company because for a first time entrepreneur having an enduringly profitable business is the most important thing. It will allow them to make the kind of mistakes a first time CEO makes and still be successful. Sometimes people are enamored by fast growth but fast growth means change, competition, new customers. So something that's established and slowing growing and proven is what they want to look for. And it's okay that it is in a quote boring type business, you'll find plenty of excitement as being a CEO. That would be my number one piece of advice to a potential buyer. Mark: Well I wish I had talked to you before I did my first acquisition. I think that would have been helpful. Royce: Yeah. Mark: Royce, thank you so much for coming on here. Again I've been completely enamored working with Harvard Business School over the past several years. I hope that we can continue to work with you guys and someday maybe if it works out for your guys you'd be able to come out there as well and I'll meet you guys in person so thank you so much. Royce: Thank you and we're very grateful for your participation. Links and Resources: Harvard MBA Program Entrepreneurship through Acquisition Course Royce's Book

Your online business is likely your MOST VALUABLE ASSET. And calculating its value is critical to setting goals and knowing your net worth. “But I never plan to sell” is something we hear often…and as entrepreneurs most of us @ QLB have said the same thing. Yet each of us has built, bought and sold our own online business…even the ones we never planned to sell. When I sold my web-based business in 2010 I was a novice. With what I know today if I could go back in time I would have planned my exit and likely sold my business for 2-3x more than I did. Instead…I waited until I was emotionally tired of the business, and sold it when the numbers were half what the once were. Not smart. Don't be like me…listen to this Podcast and implement our suggestions. You risk everything building and running your business, and you should get maximum value if/when you exit. The first step in getting max value is understanding the valuation process and being able to calculate your Seller's Discretionary Earning (SDE). Mark and I joke about falling asleep in this podcast due to some of the content…we're joking…and the material here is incredibly valuable. Episode Highlights: Learn the basic web based business valuation formula. Get to know what parts of a business swing the value range up or down. Net Income, plus Add Backs = Seller's Discretionary Earnings (SDE). What's an Add Back? Learn what are acceptable and unacceptable add backs. How add backs boost the value of your business. Using accrual accounting vs. cash for COGS…critical to understand for both buyers and sellers. Learn the typical multiple (value) ranges for an online business. Why a larger business fetches a higher multiple than a smaller ones. Inventory is SOLD SEPARATELY. If you own a physical products business, while listening to this Podcast your inventory levels will change. Including it in the list price artificially inflates the multiple of the business and results in an unstable list price. Transcription: Mark: Hey Joe how are you? Joe: I'm good Mark. How are you doing today? Mark: I'm good. Today we have an unusual guest at least for our podcast. Joe: That's what my wife calls me unusual. Mark: Well that's because you are the guest right? And in Quiet Light Podcast fashion, I'm going to have you introduce yourself to all of our listeners who have no idea who you are. Actually, they know you probably better than you may know yourself at this point because they've listened to you so much but I want to provide just a quick introduction for yourself. Joe: Wow this is how our guest feels. Now I'm on the spot. I hadn't thought that you were going to do that to me. But who am I? Self-employed since 1997, I'm kind of an old guy. Can you see that? A gray hair. 52 years old. Built box sold own online businesses, sold my last e-commerce business for a company called Quiet Light Brokerage. Jason here was my broker; you were the first guy I talked to. I loved the process in transactions so much. I reached out to you and six months later I said you know I'd love to be a broker and you said yeah let me talk to Jason. Jason thankfully said yeah talk to this guy. I came on in early 2012. You and I are now partners now. You're the majority and I'm just a small guy in the process but since then closed what approaching 30 million in total transactions might get 50 by the end of this year depending upon what happens, been around the block a little bit; lots and lots and lots of transactions of all shapes and sizes. Mark: And I think it's safe to say that you have built a name for yourself in the industry quite a bit. People know you. And I think for the first time in the history of the company we had a client you are working with and your plate was getting a little bit full so you thought about trying to hand him off to me and he said “No, I don't want to work with the founder of the company. I'd rather work with you, Joe.” And that's never happened. I'm totally happy about that though not that I don't want to be working with a client but it just goes to show the reputation that you built in the industry. Joe: Or how your represent…reputation is now destroyed. I'm not sure. Mark: Probably, now the word has gotten out. Well, he's not actually as good as we thought compared to Joe or Jason or these other guys. Well, we did a podcast episode a while ago with Chuck Mullins and we're going to be doing more of these words “Meet the Broker”. We also did one with Jason. So those you can find back in the podcast history but we obviously don't want to just talk about you and your background as fascinating as I'm sure that might be. You've got lots of years of wisdom to share with everybody. But we want to actually talk about a specific topic and I…and today we're going to talk about specifically how to calculate the value of your web based business or any web based business and what is the process that goes on behind the scenes to calculate that value. I know you gave a presentation recently, I think back in January out in California on this and it turned into a lot of questions about the actual valuation process. Like just the formula itself and how do we arrive at a certain number. So for those listening, we are going to talk you through this. But for those that are watching we will have something up on the screen a presentation that you can follow along. If you're listening in your car and you want to come back later you can find this on our YouTube Quiet Light Academy or on our podcast page at Quiet Light Brokerage. So tell us a little bit about the presentation Joe and how you kind of spent so much time just on the first half of this presentation. Joe: Yeah the presentation is really supposed to be about you know the pillars of growth. There's generally four of them and I put planning in there as a fifth. It was supposed to be about the pillars of maximum value but in order to get to that, I had to talk about how to calculate your seller's discretionary earnings in the value of your business and then it got into add backs. I really was going to do about a five minute presentation on that, about a 40 minute presentation on the rest, and then 30 minutes at Q and A. It turned into about 45 minutes of Q and A alone on calculating the value, in particular, the add backs. What was acceptable, what was not, and then the multiples and ranges depending on the net. So today in this first episode I want to touch on how to calculate the value of your business and then we'll get to the four pillars of value after that. So simply put Mark it's an easy formula. There should be no confusion about it. If you're looking at the screen there trailing 12 months seller's discretionary earnings times the multiple equals the list price of your business, simple; right? 300,000 in discretionary earnings times three you got a list price of a business of 900,000 in the key plus the landed cost of good saleable inventory on hand at the time of closing that. All of that language is really critical. Now I've been a guest on podcasts as well as you on other people's podcasts and we've talked about this formula at the beginning of the podcast and then literally 15 minutes in the host will say “So how do you calculate the value of your company again because it's simple but really-really confusing.” So I want to go through it. So we know this formula it's up to the screen again for listeners it's your seller's discretionary earnings for your trailing 12 months times A multiple equals the list price plus the inventory if you've got a physical products business. But the problem here is calculating the seller's discretionary earnings. We'll get to how to figure out what your multiple is but the most important thing is how to calculate seller's discretionary earnings. So it's up there on the screen now. It's simple if you use accounting software which is kind of important. Right, Mark? Mark: Very very very much important, yes. Joe: One of the four pillars. It's net income plus add backs equals your seller's discretionary earnings. So if you run a profit loss in Quick Books or Xero it's going to give you a net income number on the bottom. But every entrepreneur, for the most part, sometimes partnerships have better books…cleaner books. But most entrepreneurs, if you take a small salary, if you have a car that you ride after the business, you have your mobile phone as run through the business, all these things are personal in nature and then there's some one-time expenses as well. Those are considered add backs. So if you run a business and your net income is zero, that doesn't mean your business is worth zero. You could take a hundred thousand dollar salary and that's an add back as it's a personal benefit. Makes sense? Mark: Makes sense. But I'm going to back up just a minute here. Joe: Okay. Mark: Go back to the previous slide. Joe: Yup. Mark: Now where we're talking about the formula that we're using to calculate value. In that formula again, just to drill it into people's heads, it is the trailing 12 months seller's discretionary earnings which is close to a bit in most cases but not always. So we take that we times it by a multiple and that's where we come up with the asking price or the estimated value of a business. But let me ask you or to give an objection that we hear a lot from sellers when they see this. Isn't this too simple, what about all the other aspects of their business? What about the unique relationship that they have with the supplier or the upward mobility or upward scalability of the business and the trajectory of it? Isn't this just looking at the income only and not paying attention to all those other things? Joe: Yes and no. Right? And that's the answer is that we come up with a value range it's not a firm number, it's a value range and your business may swing in that range depending upon some of those things. If you've got a five year old business and you've got 30% year over year growth versus an 18-month old business, one is more valuable than the other. If you've got a patent on a particular skew that you have that prevents other people from competing with you that brings more value. If you have diversified revenue streams, you know Shopify, or your physical…your website, Amazon…different Amazon countries, Jet, Walmart, Daily Deal sites that's diversified revenue. Diversify…diversification means less risk. Less risk means higher in that multiple range. So all of those things come into play but as I say often we can't take an email list of 10,000 and say each email address is worth five dollars and do that math and add that to the value of the business. What it does simply is boost the value range of the business itself. Mark: Right. Joe: I think another way to understand this as well is that although our formula has two main parts the trailing twelve months seller's discretionary earnings in one part and in multiple being the other part, that doesn't mean that is…we're looking at two things. As we're going to go into both sides of this the multiple and the trailing twelve months are summations of bigger calculations. So when we could get to the SDE, when we're calculating that seller's discretionary earnings, we're going to go over that in this podcast episode, there's a lot involved in calculating seller's discretionary earnings just as there's a lot that goes into understanding what makes its multiples. These things kind of summarize the business and all of those intangibles as well. And I think a lot of people that do know this formula they focus a lot on the multiple. But I love the fact that what we're going to do here is we're going to unpack this seller's discretionary earnings number and see what goes into building that. Because this is actually an area where there is a lot of opportunity for optimization [inaudible 00:12:44.4]. And once you understand this aspect of it and you plan in advance sale of your business you're never to sell but someday you may wake up and want to move on, you understand the value you're going to have a much more valuable business down the road. And you know I think we were at a presentation together where someone got up and said adds are the most valuable asset that you own as your business and if you don't take care of it and you don't understand it's value you not really maximizing it; so really important. You know the key point here is Mark the trailing 12 months. It's not the trailing three, trailing six times two or anything like that; the trailing 12 always takes into account the seasonality of the business and we do every…a year over year comparison when working on that multiple valuation as well. Mark: Yeah and just one last [inaudible 00:13:32.3] on this, this is one formula that is used. It's used in this industry for online businesses which is why we use it. It is not the only way to estimate the value of a business but what I would tell anybody out there that wants to look at different valuation approaches they all essentially do the same thing. Some do it more complex than others and at the end of the day, these are predictive formulas right? I'm trying to predict what's base trying to pay. So anyways on with the next line, I took us back a little bit but I did want to get in to that a little bit. So add backs- Joe: Keep doing it I do this every day and it's simple language to me now but it is not simple, it's pretty complex. Mark: Right okay so let's get into the seller's discretionary earnings if I'm going to Quick Books because everybody I know that's listening is using Quick Books or Xero or a professional accounting software right? Everybody's using that I'm sure nobody's using Excel. Where can I go in Quick Books to calculate or see what my seller's discretionary earnings are? Joe: You can't. Mark: That is not in Quick Books? Joe: No. Mark: What is that, what is seller's discretionary earnings? Joe: It's your net income what you get out of Quick Books or Xero plus the add backs. That's what you call seller's discretionary earnings. So the big question is what's an add back? And this is why it took 45 minutes in the Q and A session that I did. So when you get to add backs and I'll go to the next slide here this is a lot of information but really an add back is something that is a personal benefit to the owner of the company or a one-time expense. Now there are always exceptions to the rule and you always want to use math and logic. But an example is owner payroll, if someone takes a payroll of 128,000 dollars to maximize their social security, that's an owner benefit and if your business is doing net income of 500,000 dollars, you add back 128 to that so now your discretionary earnings should be 628. Simple round numbers if you're doing 50 in net income and you take salary of 50 you're discretionary earnings becomes 100,000. And so if your multiple is 3X on the net income it's only 50, on discretionary earnings it's 300,000 big difference. Mark: Right. So why are we adding back these expenses? Because basically what you're doing is you're going through, you're taking a look at a company's income statement or profit and loss statement and that's something that you can generate in Quick Books or Xero or any professional accounting software. And you're going through those expenses and you're looking at some and you're saying okay we're going to add…and right now this is acting as a subtracting number to the revenue and that's how it would get to net income. But you're saying we're going to actually add that expense back so effectively take it out. Why are we taking out these expenses? Joe: They're personal in nature and they're personal benefit but you need to in your terminology taking it out you have to go with full disclosure to the buyers. They want to see every cent and so you don't go into the Quick Books accounting, you delete these personal expenses. You leave them there yet you run the report you export it to Excel and then below that net income you create an add back schedule and you go up to…okay this one's personal mail and entertainment travel or what you did a website redesign you spent 10,000 dollars three months ago. That's a one-time expense, for the most part, we could add that back. And you had an employee that did outside sales and she tried, she was only around for three months it was a 15,000 dollars expense she produced zero outside sales commissions is that an add back? We could talk about in some cases it is. But there's a lot of that today goes deep deep deep in the conversations with the owner of the business in order to get to the most important number which is a seller's discretionary earnings. Mark: All right very good. So when we're doing these add backs what we're doing is we're taking out these expenses because we want to present it to buyers and show them what the business operates from a standard starting point. So we call these discretionary expenses and we call them discretionary expenses because their expenses that the owner is spending at their discretion could be circular about it. So how do you go about or I'm going to hand back over to you, what's the next step for going through and explaining and understanding these add backs? Joe: Let's just give some example, some things that people brought up and I just pop something up on the screen you know question. Can I go to the gym every day? You go to the gym pretty often right? You try to get out and you might run it after your business is that a personal benefit you tell me? Mark: Yeah. Joe: Absolutely. So if you spend 50 dollars a month for the gym that's an add back, it's 300 dollars a year. That's a thousand dollars added to the value of your business if your multiple is over three times. Your car, your meals, and your entertainment; a big one that you and I and the entire team talked about recently was as an entrepreneur you may travel to different events. You may go to the Prosper Show that we were out in March. You may go to arket a conference. You may go to Seller Con, whatever the case might be. Can you write those things off as an add back? And we collectively said yes. Because it's a personal choice of the owner, in most cases you can learn those things online but you're going for the camaraderie and it's helping with your business in some ways but it's not a required expense that carries forward to the new owner. And that's the most important thing; it's not an expense that carries forward to a new owner. Mark: Let's talk about that trade show example because I think that's a really good example where we can get in and show how understanding what gets added back and what doesn't get added back and be somewhat nuance. So let's take two different scenarios and start with…well we'll start with Rhodium we talked about them a bit and we like the guys in Rhodium quite a bit, it's a good community. I would go to that event just for the camaraderie and the networking alone without necessarily have any business…there's always a business interest with what we do but my main reason would be to go there for the camaraderie. Looking at Quiet Light Brokerage would that be considered an add back yes or no? Probably because we're not necessarily selling our services at that point but if we display a pub con, if we get a booth display there, we're making out to contacts would you consider that an add back? Joe: Well let me tell you, let me correct you if you will on Rhodium. When we go to Rhodium and we are sponsoring the event, so it's an expense to us, we stay in hotels, we have meals, we have entertainment, and we produce revenue from it because we build relationships with those people who then come to us to list the business for sale; and that produces revenue. So when you've got an expense that produces revenue it's not an add back; simple as that. But an example of someone going to Rhodium…a real example, someone went to Rhodium recently and her husband decided to go as well, didn't go to the events but was there and then they stayed an extra week and called that their honeymoon. Went on a helicopter ride that…all sorts of different things and it was a complete business expense and write off. Absolutely a write off, she can't tie a revenue to that expense. So it's an add back. There's always math and logic with these, sometimes the buyers are not going to see it the same exact way that the seller or the broker will see it but we don't push them. It's got to be crystal clear because and full disclosure because once you're under [inaudible 00:21:01.9] we don't want any surprises. An example that is not an add back that someone brought up they said well I'm using an ad agency to do all my Facebook advertising and I pay them 15% and I spend [inaudible 00:21:14.4] a thousand dollars a month. That's 150 dollars a month expense. I'd like to add that back because my logic is if the new owner has those…that experience that doesn't need that ad agency then they're not going to have the expense so it doesn't carry forward right? Well, no it's an expense that that ad agency spends money, it produces revenue, you can't…it's a big leap of math and logic. We don't know if that particular buyer has that experience or not. If they do, good for them it's a savings on their part but we can't add it back assuming everybody has that experience. Makes sense? Mark: Yeah absolutely. I think there's a common sense factor here and that is what we want to do is we want to look at the expenses that have been used for the normal operations of the business, so expenses that's been used for normal operations they stay. The elements that are outside of normal operations of the business those are the ones that are typically going to be added back, so personal benefits, those one-time expenses that'll be outside of normal operations because it's…it is part of normal operations but it's such a rare occurrence. We want to show buyers what's their expected ROI from this business if they were to acquire it. And so you can't…you have to have a common starting around and that's where you end up getting into the add backs and taking out those discretionary expenses. Joe: Yeah. Let's talk about one more sort of not black and white example just to talk about what you said which is common sense. So I listed a business last fall and the owner of the business really literally worked five hours a week. He had a full time person doing inventory planning things of that nature customer service…doing inventory planning and design and then he had someone that he had do customer service. That someone that he had do customer service was his brother and he paid him 30 dollars an hour for customer service work. The customer service work involved canned responses and canned responses and email canned responses in a pop up chat. He was grossly overpaid doing that kind of work, 30 dollars an hour. My advice at the time and you laughed at me and called me a Scrooge at one point [inaudible 00:23:24.5] was fire your brother. Okay, you're paying him way too much. I think the total amount that he might have been paying him was roughly 30,000 dollars a year. When in reality he was paying him too much money was paying him for hours that he didn't really work. So he should have fired his brother, hired somebody with half the cost, it made up the difference of 15,000. Let six months pass and he would have…his business when it was listed at 3 ½, so it would have 3 ½ times 15,000 dollars which would have been added to list price. He wasn't willing to be a Scrooge because that was just before the holidays. He didn't fire his brother. So we went with math and logic and we presented an adjustment in the add backs accounting for his brother going away. Mark: Okay. Joe: It wasn't ideal, it was a little gray but the math and the logic made sense and it worked. We had multiple offers under LOI closed with no issues with that add back mostly because it was right there in black and white and detail that talked about prior to the LOI. Mark: Right. So it does work the other way as well too. I've actually had the opposite scenario where somebody had a bunch of friends and family helping out in their business and they were grossly underpaid because they were doing favors. And he was like the Uncle Vido or someone like that was doing the books for almost no money whatsoever. And in that case would go the other direction and we would actually inject a cost into that P and L that will basically say hey they're here in a sweet heart rate that's not going to continue we need to see what this role is important but necessary and here's a pretty reasonable market rate for math and logic once again. Joe: Yeah, it's math and logic in there as well. Okay, I have a look at our time here Mark and where we are but a really really important thing for physical product owners is in the valuation of the business is the thing that put me to sleep in college. Literally, I fell asleep in the classroom and the new students came in and I was asleep in a classroom. It's accounting. Okay if you're driving pop a couple of no doze for this part but it is so vastly critical and this is critical for buyers and sellers. For buyers listen to this closely because if you find a broker that lists something that is growing like crazy, physical products business and they don't do accrual accounting or flipped it to accrual, you're getting that business at a discount because it should be accrual. When it's accrual the business is…it's the right way to do it first of all but the discretionary earnings is higher and the business is more valuable. Mark: Hold on accrual? What are you talking about here…we're just doing something excel at this point. So what is accrual and why is it so important? Joe: You're selling a widget, so let's say you're selling a widget for 10 dollars and your landed cost of goods sold on that widget is two dollars, 20% landed at your 3PL at your Amazon FDA. That's a cost of goods sold of 20% that…that's accrual so that when you sell that widget in the month of June that cost for that widget is applied to that month of June, so it's 20%. So your cost of goods sold…landed cost of goods sold shouldn't be roughly the same every month, month in and month out when it's accrual. If it's cash you're going to see that 20% go to 60%, 102% down to zero back up again to be all over and what it's going to look like on the bottom line discretionary earnings is that your earnings are all over the place; up and down, up and down and it's uncomfortable for buyers. The way that they look at these things and the way that we train them to look at these things is discretionary earnings and then have some working capital for inventory. When you purchase inventory moving up to 4th quarter, if you are cash basis and you're wrapping up inventory and normally you've got 50,000 dollars' worth of inventory but all of a sudden your stroking checks and you've got cash out of the 150,000 dollars that depresses your net income and your discretionary earnings and the value of your business if it's presented on a cash basis accounting. Does that make a little bit of more sense and not put you to sleep? Mark: Yeah, that does make more sense and what I would…the way I've explained it to some people as well is that when you move to accrual basis accounting it's kind of like going from a two dimensional picture to a three dimensional picture because it looks at your business and where its value is in all places. So instead of just taking cash out when as you said your 4th quarter you're stroking checks because you've got to stock up that inventory you're expecting a busy Christmas season so you're writing all sorts of checks out. Instead of saying okay I've just lost that much value of business, no you haven't lost much value you're just taking cash and converted it over to inventory. So accrual says hey you still have value in your business because you have all those inventory, you just exchanged cash for inventory. And then when you sell that product now you recognize the expense of that individual item. Joe: That's the key when you sell that product that's when you recognize the expense. And a good bookkeeper can set it up for you. And trust me if you spend a little bit of money a couple hundred, 300, 400 dollars a month on a good book keeper you will make that back multiple times over in the sale of your business because buyers will have more confidence. Brokers will be able to do a better valuation with less complexities and you won't pull your hair out during the valuation process. And I've seen people do that it's really-really hard to go back and do it. We do it more often than not we do it right Mark? We have to go back and flip it from cash to accrual then and I want to show you how to do that. So right now up on the screen, I've got a sample profit and loss station, a sample statement. Net income you can see there we're going to call it 425,000 dollars. Again, we've got an add back schedule below it for those listening here is some of the add backs; we've got interest expense that they had a loan, legal and professional fees for a patent for example or a trademark those are one-time expenses, meals, and entertainment, office expenses you work from home but you've got your kids' school supplies that you [inaudible 00:29:33.0] your business, your own payroll and I've got vehicle expenses here. So we take that 425,000 in net income plus the add backs on 120 and we're not at 545,000 in change in terms of discretionary earnings. So again you just say a three time multiple we added 360,000 in value to this business just for the add backs. But when you look at this gray line in the cost of goods sold the cost of goods sold as a percentage of total income goes as high as 97% and as low as 5%. It's all over the place. In the next screen, I'm going to flip it down so we know that that's cash because it's all over the place so here we flipped it from cash to accrual. Mark: So this is the same company? Joe: The same company this is the same exact P and L but within the Excel spreadsheet there was exported from Quick Books or Xero or in some cases produced, we've flipped the cash to accrual on the total cost of goods sold line only. We don't change those numbers in the cost of goods sold expenses the only thing that's changed is that total cost of goods sold line. You see sometimes those total doesn't add up to the individual things it's because we flipped it to accrual and we work with a formula on that. So there's more than one way to do almost anything but we work with the seller on calculating new accrual and we'll go into that in a minute but the key difference is when you look at this we went from cash to we were at 425,000 in net income right? Now we've flipped to accrual you look at that net income line that's jumped from 425 to 485,000 so we've added 60,000 dollars in discretionary earnings just by flipping it to accrual. Let me repeat that for those that are almost asleep because we're talking about accounting. By not producing any more revenue, by not hustling any harder, by not renegotiating cost of goods, by not doing anything other than good accounting we've increased the net income from 425 to 485. By you know proper accounting. Mark: [inaudible 00:31:45.6] the question is this dishonest in any way? Joe: No. It's the absolute right way to do it. It's standard acceptable accounting principles. The other way is the ready fire aim approach that unfortunately most of us take, me included because I didn't know any about Quick Books or accounting, I fell asleep in class, I never had a bookkeeper. This is actually the right way to do it. Mark: All right so that [inaudible 00:32:09.8] both cash and accrual are acceptable ways of filing your taxes and doing books. That gap does recognize both, however, accrual for a product space business is going to be more accurate and more thorough and so what you're saying is that the cash basis actually undervalues the business when you record your books in cash basis. Joe: If the business is growing rapidly absolutely because they're taking almost every expendable dollar that they have and putting it back in inventory. So an example is you know you and I talk about this valuation a lot, I had a client that went to every other brokerage firm. They really needed to sell their business because they had a house under contract contingent upon sale of their business. It was for an income they lived in New Zealand they had an Amazon US Business. They had to sell the business [inaudible 00:32:58.7] tough situation to be and a foolish situation to be in. They went to…got different valuations and every broker is trying to push that multiple high to help them achieve their goals. Too high for that 18-month old business, [inaudible 00:33:13.4] we did the proper accounting flipped, we did it in accrual. I was able to push that multiples down and other brokers like 3 ½ it was never going to happen. We were able to push it down to about 2.7 yet the value of their business was a couple hundred thousand dollars higher. So we had a higher value and a lower multiple more attractive to the seller more attractive to buyer. We had a buyer that was really good at accounting, really good entrepreneur, fully understood it, bought it, went through to do diligence, really happy. Both buyer and seller happy. So there's just huge value. Mark: This is actually really good I guess pro tip for people buying as well. If you come across an opportunity that's now with Quiet Light because we are going to almost always be pushing our clients simply in order to accrual in pretty much every circumstance for an e-commerce business. But if you come across an opportunity as a buyer and you see cash based books for an e-commerce business, take a look at the trend of the business. If that business is growing as you point out Joe the net…then the cash basis accounting is going to undervalue the business. On the other hand, though if that business is shrinking and they are not adding new inventory, they are going to have inflated or apparently inflated margins because they've stopped by an inventory, they've stopped recording expenses and you could actually end up over paying for a business if it's on the decline. So that cash basis accounting just for a product based business it's unreliable because of the fact that it doesn't take into account when the expense of the item when it's sold and so you really have to pay attention to the other aspects of the business such as this trend. Joe: Absolutely and you know cash basis accounting is okay for SaaS business and things that don't have accounts receivable…things of that nature. But for a physical products business accrual is the way to go. Buyers will be aware if it's cash especially as Mark said if it's declining buyers get excited. And it's growing unlike crazy as cash basis you buy it hold it for a year or two and then you do accrual based accounting and your value is instantly higher. So in this example again to move things along we've added 60,000 in discretionary earnings if by example we were at a three time multiple that's 120,000 dollars…I'm sorry 180,000 dollars added to the value of the business by not selling a single widget more. Really [inaudible 00:35:34.3] so how do you calculate accrual? It's really complicated, to be honest with you and you've got to have a good history and records to do it. Again, start with a good goalkeeper but the formula is simple beginning inventory plus purchases minus ending inventory that equals your cost of goods sold. And this should all be landed and this is ideally on a monthly basis. Now you can do it, right? If you haven't done it yet you can't do it. So what you got to do is go back in history and figure out what your cost of goods sold are with different formulations and calculations and it's different for each client that I work with. Absolutely doable I get two listings in the last two months where we had to do that and couldn't do this. I'll be honest with you most of the times we can't get to this. It's ideal if we can but more often than not we have to go with another method which is take all of those purchases take all of the shipping cost average out the shipping cost times the number of units that your shipping…it's complicated and I can't tell you exactly how it is because every situation is different. But that's the formula. The end result again when you put to accrual is a higher value. Again going back quick review before we put too many people to sleep with this your most valuable asset is more than likely your business. You should know what the value is within a certain range 10% I hope and then the question is okay I know how to calculate seller's discretionary earnings, the final thing is what kind of multiple range do I put on it? And what I've got here up on the screen is for physical products businesses and I'll talk about content businesses and SaaS businesses and so on so forth as well. So a larger business is more valuable and in what ways Mark? Mark: Large businesses are more valuable. And at today's podcast episode that actually launched today was on that very topic is buying big better than buying small, I'll go back and [inaudible 00:37:27.9] that one fun episode. Larger businesses are more valuable because they are more stable. You have more resources available to hire out work or to reinvest in the business. So generally speaking businesses that have higher earnings and higher revenues end up getting a multiple boost just because they are more stable and have more room for or investing in and changing the format of the business. Joe: Right and the other thing is odds are we've been around a little bit longer too or they have multiple streams of revenue balanced less…essentially they are less risky therefore they're worth more. So in the examples, I've got up on the screen and we'll talk about [inaudible 00:38:10.6] for listeners. If you have seller's discretionary earnings on a physical products business of less than 700,000 you're going to be in the 2 and I'm going to do a broad range 2 ½ to 3 ½ multiple range. So if your business is 100,000 dollars in discretionary earnings, the value big range 250 to 350 plus the landed cost of good saleable inventory on hand at the time of closing. Again as Mark said at the beginning we take all of those other factors, how many streams of revenue do you have. do you have any patents, how do you launch new products, do you have a big social media following that proves that your margins are done without discounts or advertising. All of those things come into play and could push a multiple higher or push it lower even below this 2 ½ times in the even when we do that client interview we do the valuation process, let's say that you have a patent infringement issue and it's still something that's scary and hanging out there. That might push the value down a little bit. Or if you're trends are going down that's definitely going to push the value down a little bit. So again, less than 700 in discretionary earnings 2 ½ to 3 times plus the landed cost of good saleable inventory on hand at the time of closing. When you get that bigger more valuable business with discretionary earnings that are north of 700 and again these are great numbers by the way again nothing here is in black and white but the value is going to be higher. Because it's more established, less risk that somebody is going to pay more because their money safer. That value range is going to jump instead of 2 ½ to 3 ½ you're going to go from 3 ½ to 4 ½ sometimes possibly higher. Mark: And if anyone is listening to this a few years down the road and have dug back in the Quiet Light Podcast archives and are now listening up. Multiples do change over the years as well. So this is where the market is at today and always check with us to see where multiples are if you're listening to this at a different time. Joe: Got it. SAS businesses. SAS businesses is in the last 12 months good ones that are trending well that have a reasonable [inaudible 00:40:14.7] and have a good handle on the metrics, I'm going to talk about that in the next episode, you're in the four to five time range. Content sites again and much of the same dollar ranges here. Content sites probably 2 ½ to 3 ½ times unless you're much larger. I've got one with multiple offers that's between four and five times because of the size of it and because of the growth. It's discretionary earnings are well north of a million dollars. Affiliate sites, same thing. The real separator here is I think the SaaS business because it's generally B2B recruiting revenue and the value is a generally higher at least felt…buyers feel as though they're worth more. Buyers are usually right no matter what Mark and I and the seller thinks. Buyers [inaudible 00:41:03.1]. Mark: And we're going to be doing another episode of talking about multiples and how do you determine the multiple of your business because that's a pretty complex valuation as well. Where there's literally dozens of factors I know I wrote a guide…I think it's on the website right now called The Ultimate Guide to Website Value. I wrote it three years ago. I think maybe four people have read the whole thing because it's long. It was around 30,000 words of all the different things that can really impact the value of a website. I should probably go back and update that because I'm sure there's some things in there that needed to be updated now, a few years later. But there are a lot of things that can influence that multiple up or down. Joe: Let's leave the listeners with this Mark and it's something that we talked about a little bit. If you look at your own values and your own assets, anybody that's listening and you own a business, think about the different things that you own: your bank account, your retirement portfolio, your house, your car. Do you know what the values of those are plus or minus 10%? You probably do but do you know the value of your business plus or minus 10%? You probably don't. Hopefully, this podcast will help a great deal. But even with all the information we've shared you really can't figure it out until you do a proper add back schedule and do all those details. I've had calls, we've had lengthy calls with buyers, we've gone through it all and if I…yeah on my values about 850 and then we get to P and L it turns out their value is at 1.2, really important to get the details down. Get a handle on it even if you don't plan to sell the business either ever or six or 12 or 18 months down the road. Mark: Very good well if you made it to the end of the episode here congratulations and we really appreciate you while listening in. I'd be interested in hearing feedback what do you think about episodes like this where it's Joe and I or maybe we'd bring Jason on or Chuck on again and we delve deep into some of the things that we do on a day to day basis. Are these helpful for you? Do you like them? Did I put you to sleep? Do they…are they things that you would want us to do more of? Let me know send me an email mark@quietlightbrokerage.com if you absolutely hate it then email Joe at joe@quietlightbrokerage.com. So anything left to…anything more to say here? Joe: No, that's it. It's a lot of information it's a bit overwhelming and just digest it. We'll have a link to this presentation in the show notes so people can download it. You'll get a little summary video of it as well that we can share [inaudible 00:43:32.2] can go through their own process. And then one more thing I guess yes I do have something. I have a client recently that I've been talking to for 18 months and you know I said: “What's the one takeaway after all we've gone through?” And she said “More than anything else if I could convey and share something with people that are trying to understand the value of the business and might sell it is don't be afraid to talk to a broker, get a valuation, figure out those things that you need to fix so that 12, 18 months down the road, the business is more valuable and you're prepared.” That's the key thing. Mark: Absolutely we do have resources on the site, articles that break down how to do a seller's discretionary earnings calculation. We'll link to those in the podcast show notes. So if you want to get deeper and couldn't follow along everything in this episode there are some articles that you can refer to which will be easy to follow as well. so thanks for listening and we will be talking again in a week. Links: PDF Version – How to Calculate the Value of Your Business

Full Show Transcription Welcome back to the Work Stories Project. I’m your host Carol Xu. In today’s show, Mark and his co-workers will continue with the workplace asshole story. In the last episode, Mark had no real awareness that his co-workers hated working with him for four years. When his manager Miles incidentally broke the news to him, it was a painful revelation to Mark. Mark: It just never occurred to me that I was disliked. So the idea that my self-image of being a nice guy that people generally like… To have that idea destroyed like that was eye-opening and painful. It’s like a revelation. To redeem himself, Mark went and bought flowers for the implementation coordinators (ICs for short), Mark: One flower for each IC and a little note saying, “I’m sorry I’ve been such an asshole” and… I think they gave me a hug. There was reconciliation. Apologies and coming together. It just turned the whole thing around. However, notice there were limits to what a symbolic gesture could accomplish. There were no real conversations where Mark and the ICs sat down and actually got to know each other. Mark thinks that the flowers were a good beginning, but shouldn’t be the end. Mark: It should be “let’s sit down and have a conversation and figure out what’s actually going on with our emotions and the interplay, and what exactly is happening here,” and be honest with each other and get to the heart of the matter. That’s what I value. But in the culture at BISNET at the time, such honest conversations seemed impossible. Mark: That’s corporate culture or whatever. You just can’t talk about that stuff. It could get heated. Maybe it was better the way it went down: “Let’s at least pretend that I’m not an asshole. And you pretend you don’t hate me. Maybe we can actually get to a point where you don’t hate me and I’m not an asshole, [laugh] if we just pretend long enough.” I ask Miles whether there were any lasting changes after the flower gesture, Carol: Do you remember any changes after the flower incident, in terms of people’s interactions or their reluctance (to interact)? Miles: No. I think like most things, it’s hard for people to change, both for Mark to change and for anybody else to change. I see it as a blip and  everything kind of falls back in the realm of people’s behaviors. After the flower gesture, Mark spent one more year at BISNET. During that year, Mark and his co-workers were more patient and tolerant with each other. But his co-workers still didn’t know Mark’s upbringing or understand his particular sense of humor. And Mark still got frustrated by the interruptions and wished in private that the ICs would put some extra effort in writing a problem-solving manual or take some programming training. In 2002, Mark helped to find a well-trained programmer to gradually take over his responsibilities. Mark left the company, on good terms, in early 2003. [music break] But our story doesn’t end there. After Mark has volunteered the story to me, I try to talk to as many of his former co-workers as possible. My conversation with the former IC Letitia reveals something surprising [sound: phone call with Letitia]. It turns out that there is one major difference between Mark’s version of the story and that of Letitia’s. According to Mark, nobody gave him any feedback about him being difficult to work with before the flower incident. Had he known that others hated working with him, he could’ve apologized much earlier. Yet, according to Letitia, she actually heard others calling Mark an asshole to his face, more than once. Letitia: There were people that gave feedback to Mark by calling him an asshole to his face. Carol [in surprise]: Oh really? Was that before or after the flower incident? Letitia: Yes, before. Carol: So they actually told him, “Oh you are being an asshole here.” But he didn’t really respond. And he just continued his way? Letitia: Yeah. But I don’t think it came out as ‘you are being an asshole’, I think it was ‘you are such an asshole!’ (laugh) I think that he had that said to him more than once and by more than one person. I would wager money on that.    Hmmm, from Mark’s perspective, he seems to have completely forgotten about being called an asshole more than once at work. Letitia goes on to say that she also gave Mark direct feedback in the form of an email once. One day Mark left work in the morning. Letitia: He just left. Basically left all of us hanging. I don’t remember what the big overhanging requirement was, but there were a lot of clients affected and a lot of employees of our company that were being affected. That was the time that I sent him an email. I said things to him that probably nobody else did, because I need to let him know, ‘Dude, I don’t think you are a team player.’ And that, in my mind, is one of the worst things you can say to an employee that’s part of a startup, ‘cause you gotta be team player. You gotta work together. You gotta come together for the greater good. And he was exhibiting more signs of “well, I’m the most important person here…” According to Letitia, soon after the email, Mark apologized to every IC with the flower gesture. I ask her how she felt about Mark’s apology. Letitia: I felt a little bit vindicated. I felt like he heard me. So, this is interesting. According to Letitia, the coworkers did give Mark direct feedback along the way. And Letitia’s email probably even directly led to the flower apology. But why doesn’t Mark remember any of that? I need to have a follow-up with Mark to relay Letitia’s perspective. Carol: Letitia remembers others calling you an asshole before the flower incident… Mark: To my face? Carol: Yeah, to your face, like “you are such an asshole” or “quit being such an asshole”. Mark: [long pause] I would think that I would remember that. If I don’t remember it, my only explanation for not remembering it is because it would have to be in a context where that could’ve been a joke or something. Maybe I took it as a joke. Or maybe [pause] I was in the middle of trying to defend some technical thing. My brain wasn’t in processing-emotions mode. It was in talking-about-technical-things mode. Maybe when someone said it, it just bounced off ‘cause I wasn’t in the space to really think about it. I don’t know. As an off-hand comment maybe. Nobody sat me down and said ‘Do you understand that everybody here dislikes you, right?’ Maybe it was a kind of willful ignorance on my part. Maybe I just felt so justified in everything I said and did, that any kind of criticism bounced off until the Miles’ thing? I don’t really know. I then bring up Letitia’s email and the fact that it happened one or two days before the flower apology. Carol: She specifically remember that after the email, she said either the next day or the day after, you brought everybody flowers. Mark: Right, well, part of my problem is I don’t remember the context of the thing very well. All I remember is I talked to Miles. But why did I talk to Miles? So it probably was after some incident that she’s describing. Mark tries to recall what happened Mark: Now that I’m thinking of it, her email was definitely part of it. Okay, this is one scenario that may have happened. But I’m not 100% sure, because it’s so long ago. I think her email spurred me to talk to Miles myself. She may have been the one who told me how bad things were. Then I go to talk to Miles about it. I think I was already upset by the email. When I talked to Miles, he basically confirmed everything in the email and said “It’s not just Letitia.” That was the order of events. I think her email upset me. Carol: do you remember specifically whether she said you were not a team player? Can you recall that phrase? Or what part upset you? Mark: [pause] Okay, a lot has started to come back to me right now. [laugh] So far what I’ve mentioned is… Mark goes on to say that now thinking back he was probably picking up some antagonizing feedback from the ICs along the way. But he didn’t understand what it meant. At the time, he just felt that Letitia and the other ICs had a misunderstanding of him. And they probably put him in the asshole box. Mark: I couldn’t get out of the box, the asshole box. Anything I said or did just reinforced it.” But because Mark never thought of himself as an asshole, all the feedback before the meeting with Miles didn’t sink in. Instead, Mark felt that he was the victim. So he started disliking Letitia. Mark: Because I felt she was the one that had wronged me, that had put me in the asshole box. And I was just some young dumb kid, trying to put some code together for them. Now I’m being labeled as something I don’t feel like I am. I always thought of myself as a nice guy. So when she wrote that email, my initial reaction to it was “this is bullshit!” After all the stress I’ve put myself through for this company and all the shit I put up with. After all that, for her to tell me I’m not a team player. Basically reinforce the idea that I’m some kind of asshole. It just seemed so wrong to me, ‘cause I didn’t see myself as an asshole. So yeah, I got defensive and I went… Mark went to Miles’s office to complain about Letitia’s email. It was then Miles turned around and told Mark that everybody else was on Letitia’s side. Mark: That woke me up and made me realize that I can’t defend my behavior. It doesn’t matter if she’s part of the problem. If she is antagonizing me to a point where I ended up becoming an asshole, that doesn’t mean I’m right to be that way. As our conversation goes on, Mark tries to make sense of why the feedback like Letitia’s email didn’t directly help him and instead agitated him. Mark: I think that was the problem. She just didn’t have an accurate model of me. Her model of me made me out to be an asshole. I feel there were legit explanations for why I was the way I was. That email, I feel was just even more antagonism. That was just her way of trying to tell me how to improve. But it was the wrong way. It was a bad way. Maybe I felt like she was trying to prove that I was an asshole. And I was defending myself the whole time. I’m not an asshole. But we couldn’t have a really deep discussion or anything. She couldn’t ever get a more accurate model of me and what was going on there. She just had some caricature of some guy who thought he was the king, and all her assumptions of me were based on some caricature of somebody who thinks he’s God or whatever. but I couldn’t really address that. All I could do was to really disprove it, to give them the flowers and say “I’m sorry that I’ve been an asshole. Let’s be friends.” That disproves everything she thought about me, whereas everything I’ve been doing up to that point was just reinforcing her preconceived notions. I ask Mark what’s the difference between Letitia’s and Miles’s feedback. Why did the latter finally get through to him? Was it because Miles had power over Mark? But ICs didn’t? Carol: Is it because Miles was your boss and the others are your peers? Mark: Just like Letitia thought of me as an asshole and misconstrued everything I did in that light, I put Letitia into a box: she was an IC who didn’t want to learn anything, who saw feature requests as some kind of personal favor or battle and took it upon herself to antagonize me until I did what she wanted, and to then insult me and call me an asshole if I didn’t do what she wanted. We kind of both caricaturized each other. And Miles kind of stayed out of everything. He was kind of independent third party. So for him to validate her email to me, it added more weight to it. So it wasn’t just Letitia being Letitia… In another conversation with me, Mark compares two kinds of feedback, one straightforward and the other more subtle. Mark: I think there are different kinds of feedback. There’s the “they are gonna quit or we are gonna fire you” type of feedback. That obviously worked. Then there’s this more subtle expressions on their face, the fact they don’t invite you to their houses, the fact that when you try to engage them in small talk, they don’t seem interested. Probably, they think that they are communicating with you, but you are oblivious. And you just think everyone else is being a jerk. In Mark’s case, he felt he had to prove even harder his value to the company. Mark: I was taking in a lot of the negative emotions that people had in reaction to things I said and did. But without addressing this things directly, that just made it worse. The negative emotions and my picking up on them just made me act worse. Then I felt like maybe I had to prove even harder my value to the company and what I’ve done for everybody. “You should be giving me some kind of deference because I’m working so hard and I’ve done so much. Why do you dislike me? That doesn’t make any sense.” I was just confounded by the whole thing, not understanding what was going on or how to get people to like me or… [pause and sigh]. Remember Miles mentioned earlier that Mark’s mom was trying to elevate Mark’s status at the Company’s Christmas party? To Miles and many others, it was an example of Mark’s big ego. When I bring it up to Mark, he explains where he and probably his mom were coming from. Mark: You know, people who stroke their egos, they are doing it for a reason. It’s not because they really have big egos, it’s because maybe they are not feeling so great about themselves and need some kind of propping up or whatever. So, to Mark, maybe much of his ego-stroking behavior was an attempt to simply get others to like him. But to the other people, it was exactly the reason for not liking him. Now we have a vicious cycle and a self-fulfilling prophecy. That is, when the co-workers caricaturized Mark to be an asshole, he actually became more asshole-like. What’s more, because the feedback didn’t match with Mark’s view of himself who identifies as a nice guy and a nerd, it never actually sank in. So now we have a disconnect between the two parties. For the ICs, they thought they were providing feedback to Mark along the way by calling him out as an asshole or telling him that he was not a team player. But somehow Mark never changed or maybe got even more asshole-like. I can see how frustrating it must have felt for the ICs.  Yet from Mark’s perspective, he felt that he was wronged by the ICs. In his mind, the feedback was, therefore, never registered as accurate, useful information, and thus easily forgotten.    So, if the meeting with Miles hadn’t happened, what kind of feedback would get through to him? From whom? I ask Mark. Mark: It takes a certain kind of person with a certain kind of perspective on things and an ability to, like a kind of optimism [smile], ‘let’s just hope that this is well received, because it can always back fire when you are honest with somebody about that kind of thing. So there has to be some magical fairy person at the job who’s willing to stick their neck out and tell the asshole, “you should not act like that here with these people. Maybe in some contexts that would work, if you were in a group of people that are just like you. But you are not and you have to make adjustments.”           So I do think that if someone had been able to set aside whatever trepidations they had about talking to me frankly, sat me down and said, “the people here don’t like you, do you know that?” At any point, if they had done that, then I’m pretty positive that I would’ve responded and “okay, how do I fix that?” [silence] But that’s not how people communicate. They just don’t do that in the real world, or especially in the workplace. Why don’t they? Is it because there’s a fear of… Is it because they are also in the kind of haze? They know that they are tormented by this guy, but they just don’t, they kind of put it off in a corner and try not to deal with it and avoid it as much as possible? So maybe everybody is in this similar kind of haze where “I don’t get along with that person. So whatever.” or “It’s not my job to deal with them. So I’m just gonna tell his boss and just try to get my work done and deal with my stuff. Well, we are all busy after all. Who has the time to play the “magical fairy person” at work? But I think what’s even rarer than time is the kind of optimism Mark mentioned. The optimism to even entertain the crazy idea that maybe just maybe the asshole also has an untold story waiting for you to explore. [music break]   Mark’s story only serves to begin the conversation between you and me or among your colleagues at work. If you want to share your story, please drop me a note on our website Workstoriesproject.org. I’m happy to be your personal researcher and curator on any work-related topics. While doing research for this episode story, I’ve come across so many interesting materials. For example, there’s a blog article by a senior Facebook software engineer. He reflects on his experience of being kicked out of his team once. If you visit the webpage of this podcast episode, you’ll see the links to all the resources that may help you build an asshole-free workplace. [Professor Bob Sutton, one of my mentors at Stanford, even devotes a whole book to the workplace asshole, titled “The No Asshole Rule!” It’s an interesting and provocative read. Tell me what books or resources have helped you surviving an asshole or building an asshole-free workplace.] I’ll keep updating the list as we go.  You may wonder what’s the topic for our future episodes. Well, it largely depends on your request. You tell me what to explore next, as long as it has the slightest connection with the human experience of work. We can always revisit old topics and explore new ones. So reach out to me on our website, Facebook, and Twitter. You are also welcome to join me in a sub Reddit discussion titled work stories project. And don’t forget to subscribe to our show in your podcast app. That way, you’ll be notified about new episodes automatically. All the details are listed on our website Workstoriesproject.org. Let me thank all the story contributors to this episode, Letitia, Miles, Bret, and my husband Mark. Sometimes revisiting the past can be painful and confusing. You all are very brave and generous. I’ve certainly learned a great deal from talking with you. And I hope I can pay it forward. I’m your host Carol Xu. Our sound engineer is Jason. And the music is by Mark. [music break] Hello, you are still there? You must be one of those people who sit through the whole credits after a movie. Are you waiting for a bonus clip? I’ll tell you a secret: I do have some fun behind-the-scene clips from the interviews for you. For example, in one clip, Mark and I kept going back and forth about whether he could be technically called an asshole. Here’s a little sample: Mark: So was I really an asshole? Or am I a special Silicon Valley brand of workplace-too-honest, temporarily autistic, not-paying-attention-to-other-people’s emotions (type of asshole?) Is there a name for that? Nerd? Is that it? I’m not shying away from being called an asshole by other people. That’s fine… Carol: … If we actually have a heart-to-heart with 10 assholes who are recognized by their colleagues, I go interview those 10 assholes. Maybe 9 out of 10 would go, “What? Really?” Mark: [bursts into laughter] You really think so?   Go to the webpage of this episode and click on the link that says “behind the scenes clips” and enjoy! J Okay, that’s it for our show. See you next time! 

Interview w/ Tim Ballard & Mark Mabry Tim: The guy’s name was Marble. Mark: Marble the child molester. Tim: His name was Marble, and he looked like a marble. El Centro childporn... Mark: Child Fugitive Caught in Calexico? 'Child Pornography Fugitive Caught in Calexico Port' Tim: No. Mark:  Imperial Valley Press. 'A man suspected of having child pornography was arrested in Calexico, El Centro, indicted in child sex crime'. Tim: Is his name Marble? Mark: Man, Imperial... "An Imperial man was arrested on suspicion of possession of child pornography on Tuesday, after authorities allegedly found child pornography on his computer. Homeland Security investigators, special agents began investigating local internet activity about child pornography."   Intro: You are listening to Slave Stealer. "It is a world that I know I understand better than most people, but you don’t even know how real and how huge it is. There are laws put in place to protect kids, and one of the laws, surprise, surprise, is you can’t sell them. If you guys are traffickers, you’d come in just like this. This is what happens. This is the core of the problem."   Tim: Welcome to Slave Stealer podcast. I am here shouting too loud for... Mark: You broke the mike! Tim: ...with co-host Mark Mabry, but we welcome you, and this is our kind of Throwback Thursday version We’re just going to talk about couple of interesting things that we think you should know about.    Mark: One in particular... People ask, "Do you do domestic work?" "Is everything overseas?" So, I want a domestic Throwback Thursday. Tim: Yeah, we... See, it’s interesting. We... I say about half our, half our case load right now is domestic, but the domestic cases are the ones we cannot readily talk about because they are generally more sensitive, because they require more... They require a different set of tools, they are law enforcement sensitive - a lot of software, a lot of techniques that require us to go online and do things that we can’t reveal to the public because there are countermeasures that the bad guys could utilize if they knew what we were doing. So...  Mark: Like what? Tim: Well, let me...let me just tell you and ruin every case we have pending! So yeah, we do a ton of domestic work, but because of the nature of it, we don’t get to talk too much about it. We let our law enforcement partners talk about it. They come out with a press release, and then we just point our donors to it. And they are usually kind enough to mention us in it, and we leave it at that.   Mark: Yeah. What do you find... Before we jump into that, give me like kind of a glossary of key elements for this story that...a few little background tidbits that will help us understand things that you are going to say in the story. Are there any like technical things we need to understand? Tim: No, I mean, you should just know that things like child pornography and acquiring children, in the United States in particular, are readily available on the internet - mostly in the dark web. These are the places that Google is not going to reach.    Mark: You mean Google does not reach everything? Tim: Google does not reach everything. There are many parts of the internet that are impossible for Google to reach, and these are the places where the pedophiles flock to. They network, they trade in child pornography, they negotiate child sex deals, and we are way behind in terms of our response to this. And so - when I say we,  I mean the nation, law enforcement in general - and so we are working to better the solution to that problem - building software, working with some of the most advanced technology companies on the planet, working with the top U.S. officials in this area. And we are building tools that will allow law enforcement to go into these dark places and root out these bad guys.    Mark: Are there...on the market right now - or not on the market, in the space right now - there are software solutions that are good. What are some of the good guys out there with great software that are busting... Is Thorn? Tim: Oh, absolutely yeah! So Thorn, which is Ashton Kutcher and Demi Moore's foundation - they have internet computer gurus/engineers who are constantly in a think tank developing software. They have developed tools, for example - and they have been open about this - tools that allow law enforcement to identify when a child is actually soliciting himself or herself. And the reason... And it has to do with how they are writing the post. Now, the posts look like they are coming from some pimp, but the pimp takes the kid and forces them to write their own advertisement on Backpage or Craigslist, or different social media networks - Facebook. And so it looks like it is coming from an adult.   Mark: Or a kid. Looks like it is coming from an adult, but it’s a kid. Tim: They are trying to make it look like it is coming from an adult, or that a pimp is negotiating the deal, when in fact the child himself or herself is writing it. Mark: Under duress. Tim: Under duress. And so the software actually has...looks for key identifiers that would indicate that it’s a child.   Mark: Voiceprint things. Tim: And then they would...yes, and verbage and different things. And then that would allow law enforcement to go solicit that individual in their current capacity to pull them out and find them. So that’s some software that Thorn is involved in building.    Mark: That’s cool! Way to go Demi and Ashton Kutcher - on the good guy list. Tim: Good guy list. Mark: Ok, that’s... Let’s storm straight into the story that I’d like you to tell today. It happened in Imperial Valley. Talk to me. Tim: So it was, again it was... We identified somebody through means I can’t reveal, but it was somebody who was dealing in the dark net. Mark: Now, we were there doing some training. Can you reveal that? Tim: Yeah. I mean that’s how...that’s how it started. We were training... Mark: Yeah, walk me through the whole story. Tim: We went down to Imperial County and we trained law enforcement - several agencies - on how to go on the dark net and find people who are trading in child pornography. And during the training, we found this manual, this 'how to' manual. And it was multiple pages - I want to say somewhere between 40 and 50 pages long. Mark: How to what? Tim: Well, I am getting to that, ok. It’s 'how to'... Mark: Oh, you are saving that? Tim: I am saving that, yeah, the punchline. Mark: Awesome. Stay tuned. Tim: ...how to court and ultimately rape a child. That’s what the manual was. And it said things like - and this is something that had been traded amongst many pedophiles... Mark: So this manual has a title on it in pretty script that says, 'How to court and rape a child'? Tim: I don’t...I can’t tell you that that is the exact language, but that is what the manual was. And it talks about everything from how do you find a child - "well, find a niece or nephew that has friends and invite them over," like starting there. And then from there, these are the kind of gifts you can give them, here's the kind of things you can say to them so they trust you...and then it takes you down this whole dark horrific path to the point where you are controlling this child completely and abusing them sexually. Mark: So you had... You found this manual in the training on the dark web. Tim: On the dark web, being traded by someone who was in Imperial County. And then following up... And again, I can’t get into details of how we did this, but following up, we were able to - in an undercover capacity - able to ascertain the same person also possessed quite a bit of child pornography: child rape videos and images. Mark: And then what? Tim: And then, after that, we decided that this training should end with the search warrant for this individual’s home being at least mostly written. And that’s what we did. And so we were able to do the training, come back a week or so later after they got the paperwork in place, judge signed the warrant, and we were able to accompany the Imperial County sheriff’s office as they raided the home of this individual and seized his computer and talk to him. Mark: Are you allowed to say his name? Tim: Sure, yeah! He’s been convicted, it’s open, it’s public - his name is, his last name is Marble. Mark: That is such a creepy pedophile name. Tim: Why? Mark: Marble. I don’t know, that’s like a movie character name. Tim: Yeah. Mark: "Mr. Marble, we’d like to have a look around." So, were there any big or little surprises at the house? Tim: So, yeah, a couple funny things... As law enforcement breached the door, he instantly said - we didn’t tell him why we were there - the minute the door was breached, he said, "Other people have been using my computer too!" "Well, we didn’t say we were here for your computer," you know, "I’m not the only one, who uses it!" So it was obvious - he ended up confessing everything. And it was... Some of these cases get depressing, you know. You want to hate these guys completely because of what they are doing and the threat they pose. He actually told one of the sheriff deputies: "It’s a good thing you caught me," because, he said, he was in the process of being a foster parent to a 7-year-old girl. And he said, "If I got that little girl, I was going to rape her. That’s why I was doing it. So it is a good thing you caught me." And a lot of these guys, from my experience, do say that. They admit that they are monsters. And they don’t like that they are in this place. And some are almost relieved to get caught and be put away before they can really hurt somebody. I mean, it’s like they’ve lost control of their lives - they are so addicted to this horrific desire and passion and everything else. And so this guy in the interrogation, the thing that made it kind of sad... And we have video of him, we can probably put at least part of the video up on the website - he started talking about his life and how he was sexually abused as a child. You know, we talk a lot about how people can become addicted to child pornography because they start looking at pornography and that changes their brain - it basically creates brain damage, shrinkage in the brain, because of the overstimulation of the frontal lobes of the brain because that’s what people are going for, right, trying to get this chemical reaction and they overuse it and they overrun it and that ruins their life. It hurts their opportunity to have a normal, healthy, romantic relationship, you know, because their brain is now demented, and porn is the only thing that they recognize as fulfilling that need. It’s really sad. That’s a choice people make, like drugs. And it takes them to a dark place where they end up in jail. And all the guys - everyone who is a pedophile abusing children - are a threat to children and need to go to jail. But this case was a little bit different, and we see this often too. When you are abused as a child and that becomes your first sexual experience... And I’ve talked to so many psychologists to try to understand these guys - these guys that we're investigating, interrogating. And they said it is absolutely true: when your first sexual experience as a child or a teenager, whatever that experience is, that becomes what your brain, as it’s still forming... It’s still, really physically hasn’t formed completely and so it’s still taking ideas and concepts and ingraining them into your person. And so sex becomes, to these kids who are being molested, can become a relationship that is defined by an adult and a child. And that’s what their brain recognizes as sex. So when they get older, and they start developing their sexuality, what they know to be that sexuality is relationships, sexual relationships, between an adult and a child. So they then become the offender.    Mark: Now, to be clear, not every child that was molested grows up to become an offender... Tim: Absolutely. Mark: ...or has that predisposition. Tim: Absolutely. That’s not... Yeah, it’s not every...it’s certainly not every person who is abused, but it happens quite a bit. Mark: It’s a factor in a lot of people we catch. Tim: It’s a factor, and in the case of this man, that’s what he was telling us - that he had been abused. And I mean, you listen to the interrogation and it makes you sad. You know he needs to go to jail because he is a threat. He admits himself he needs to go to jail and he’s a threat. But when you hear his story, you realize how tragic this whole thing is. It’s so cyclical.   Mark: Is there a more... And I love to hear you say that and it breaks my heart too, because there’s...seems like it’s really easy, and we do it frequently. Some of the bad guys, like Fuego and these guys that we bust that are selling kids - they are horrible monsters. And then there are guys like Marble who...there’s a high degree of sympathy where you're like, "Man, I’m just sad for your ruined, shattered life that started out ruined and shattered and you were left to try to pick up the pieces." Like, how do you go about your job sympathetically or empathetically? You know what I am saying?   Tim: You just carry that sadness with you, but you don’t regret for one second putting the guy behind bars. Mark: Yeah. Tim: Because there’s nothing more important than children and their safety and the preservation of their innocence. So they have to go to jail. And you just look at them and you are sympathetic to their plight, and you hope that they can have redemption and they can somehow be healed from their brain damage.   Mark: You know, it’s interesting. Our intro music on the Slave Stealer podcast is - you know the intro sequence where you are talking about, "They look like you, and this guy and that guy" - that actually took place in an interrogation room in Haiti. And you can see it on "The Abolitionists", the documentary that is coming out on April 8th, that you are actually lecturing me. It was our very first op that I accompanied you on and we busted those two ladies who were selling kids, and I said to you, "Man, I’m a little torn up here." Do you remember that?    Tim: Yeah, absolutely! Mark: And you went off and you were like, "Listen, this is hard," and you essentially said the same thing. But I understand it now with a little more time under my belt.   Tim: Yeah. Look, you never... And it’s, it was a shocking thing for me when I started doing these cases - and this is outside even child cases, drug cases, any kind of case. There is an element of human sadness when you are taking someone from their family - even as bad as they are, there are people that love them and can’t believe they made these decisions. And you are the guy taking them away in handcuffs and putting them in jail for a long time. And you can’t help but feel an element of human sympathy, you know. And you don’t know what decisions led, you know, what things happened to this person that led them to make these decisions. But that doesn’t mean for a second that you don’t wish they were in jail. Mark: Yeah. Tim: You know they need to go to jail, but it’s rarely this total victorious, just, "Yeah, we did this!" You know, it’s... There can be some of that, but the whole thing is sad. The whole thing is tragic. It is tragic for everybody involved, especially for the victims, especially for the children, the parents. But also, in some ways, for the bad guys... Mark: Yeah. Tim: But it doesn’t mean you stop doing it. Mark: I think that’s a great little Throwback Thursday moment. Sign us off, man. Tim: Thanks for tuning in, and we will see you next time on Slave Stealer podcast.

Xiaohua: It’s tough being a single guy in China. Not only do you have to compete in an imbalanced society where males outnumber females by 118 to 100, but you are expected to own property, be handsome and have a good temper to boot. Desperate young men are now paying as much as 7000 Yuan for a seven-day crash course on how to strike a conversation with girls and keep the attraction going. So we are talking about an online course teaching guys how to date. Do you think it’s gonna work? Heyang: It depends on what is being taught. On this website named "Study the Art of Dating," there are mentors who sell their courses, including online and offline tutorials. These courses include how to pick up a girl, how to secure a spouse. That’s a bit of a jump in between the two. And how to redeem lost love and how to manage personal appearance. I think the easiest thing to do or to get a leg up is to manage your personal appearance. Usually that a good start I think. And it’s pretty expensive (this course turned out to be.) I’m surprised that people actually pay for this kind of thing. And it’s not easy to be a single woman in China either. In this imbalanced society where male outnumber females. But when it comes to big cities, it seems it’s the outstanding females outnumbering males. Mark: Calm down now. Heyang: Yes, it’s not easy. I think women are facing a similar kind of predicament as well. Mark: Yeah, well, maybe. Let’s concentrate on the so-called desperate young men for a moment. Do Chinese guys date when they are teenagers? Xiaohua: We are getting to the root problem. No, they are not being encouraged. They are probably doing it secretly. But they are not being encouraged by their families or school. And right after college they are expected to get married in two years and have kids in three. Mark: Why don’t Chinese guys, the ones that we are talking about, I’m sure this doesn’t apply to all of them. But why do they need to go on a course to learn something which comes naturally in nature and it’s part of human nature? Why do they need a course like this, and when they are in their twenties to have their parents take them to matchmaking events? And go to blind dates set up by their parents. Xiaohua: I completely understand… Mark: Something seems to have gone awry with nature I think in China. When it comes to teenagers, older teenagers, dating and just letting things happen naturally. Heyang: Yeah, I think maybe it’s because, as that old saying goes, when you are at a certain age, you should do certain things. And when you are a teenager, when you are a high school student, you should probably be dating, you should probably be answering the natural call of certain desires? Or whatever it’s called, it is forbidden to be spoken of in Chinese schools. I think it’s when you natural desire has been stifled at a certain age, and later on, you actually need to pay so much money to try to acquire it again. It’s all messed up. Mark: Perhaps in some ways it’s messed up. But in other ways, I actually think it’s quite a good idea. I mean in other words Chinese teenagers can really concentrate on their studies and so forth without the distractions of pressure to date or the desire to date if it’s all stifled. So I can kind of see both sides of this one. Xiaohua: Yeah, this is true. Shall I give one example of one of the tricks that a mentor gives. And you guys can judge whether it’s effective. It’s called ‘the hot water trick.’ So, the idea is to walk into an upscale night club or a bar and immediately order two cups of hot water the moment you walk in. And don’t let the girl find out you are doing this. And later after finding a girl you want to speak with, the waiter will come to you with the hot water. This will impress the girl that you just met because she will see you walk in and receive hot water without asking. Making it appear that you are a regular customer at a club. Also, when you exit the club, try to pull aside the waiter for a few words, it can be anything. You can just talk randomly to them. And this will make the girl think you are very tight with this night club. Mark: Now we are in cultural difference territory. Heyang: Okay, you go first Mark. Mark: Any guy that ordered hot water in a night club would risk not getting a first date let alone a second one. Heyang: Plus now everybody knows, even if this trick had any effect on any lady, now it won’t. Because everybody is going to be doing it. Waiters are going to be so busy delivering hot water to people from now on. Xiaohua: And we are here to debunk the myth. Next time you see this don’t trust that guy. He’s been to that course.

Heyang: 大家好，欢迎来到这周Round Table的英语词汇小百科节目，我是Heyang，Mark会跟我一起聊一聊关于器官的那些事。We are going to talk about organs and the phrases related to that, and often it sounds a little bit religious and biblical sometimes. But anyway, let’s go into it.Mark: Okay, what are we gonna start with?Heyang: What about this phrase, “a man after my own heart”? It sounds like you are professing your love to someone. Is that what it means?Mark: Do you know, I mean I’ve known this phrase ever since I was a little boy learning English. But, you know, I’ve never thought of it in that way before. Yeah, “a man after my own heart” is the sort of thing that, maybe a woman might say or something like that. It doesn’t mean that at all. I mean, what it means is someone that has the same sort of ideas as you. For example, I mean, you know, if you love football, for example, and your friend loves football, then you can say “Oh yeah, he’s a man after my own heart”, meaning that he follows the things that your heart follows in the same way. Heyang：那也就是说，这是一个合我意的人，跟什么爱情啊表白啊没有任何的关系。What about another phrase, which I think we see it more often, saying that something costs someone “an arm and a leg”.Mark: Yes, well that’s very, very interesting what I mean, you know, obviously the things that we would least like to give up, you know, if we were buying something, is part of our own body. So, that’s why this is quite a shocking one, really. If something’s really high-priced in a shop, you can say “Look at that! It would cost an arm and a leg to buy it.”Heyang: Or maybe a kidney to get an iPhone.Mark: Well, it’s happened, unfortunately, hasn’t it? And the other thing is, if we go back 500 years to the works of William Shakespeare, then Shakespeare wrote a play called The Merchant of Venice, which featured a character called Shylock. Shylock used to lend money out to people, and there was one particular man that he lent the money to. When this man couldn’t pay it back, the deal was that that man would give Shylock one pound of flesh.Heyang: Ouch!Mark: Now, that could have been an arm or a leg. But of course Shylock wanted his heart, obviously therefore wanted his life. So, that’s another reference in literature to this idea of giving away part of your body. In this case, in payment to the debt. I won’t tell you how the story ended, because it’s one of the great plays. And there’s a really great film version online, which stars Jeremy Irons, a great British actor, not as Shylock, but he’s the role of the man that borrowed the money.Heyang: Yes, and I do love his voice too, as he was Scar in the Lion King. A pound of flesh means something which is owed that is ruthlessly required to be paid back. Pound of flesh,一磅肉，这个意思呢，也是形容以借款人的惨重损失和痛苦为代价的债务。也可以说是合法却极不合理的要求。来自《威尼斯商人》，也是莎士比亚的名剧之一。You can check that out.Mark: And even now, say a husband and wife have been arguing, and then the wife continues to argue, even when the man thinks that he’s, you know, done all he can to calm her down. He might leave, go out and visit some of his friends. And he would use the phrase today, still used today, he’d say, “You know, I mean I kept apologizing to her, but she wanted her pound of flesh”. Meaning that she just wouldn’t let it go, and she wanted to extract everything she could from him.Heyang: Or maybe it’s because he did something really terrible in the first place, and what the lady should have said is “go and boil your head”!Mark: That sounds horrible, some of these are really horrible. Do you know, the one I hate would take about go and boil your head, I mean that’s a horrible image, isn’t it? Someone boiling their head.Heyang: That means in Chinese, “滚!” It’s not a good word or phrase to use.Mark: It’s a really horrible one, isn’t it? And the other one I hate is, a lot of American show-biz people say this, “Eat your heart out”.Heyang: Ewwww…Mark: I think that’s the most… I think that’s actually obscene imagery. I can’t stand even the thought of thinking about that phrase, but you hear it all the time…Heyang: What does it mean, by the way?Mark: It means, say for example at the Oscars, if one actor has got one an Oscar, and the others thought they were going to win but they didn’t, that one that want it in a very bitter and kind of nasty kind of way, can say, “eat your heart out”, you know, meaning “too bad on you”, “I’m better than you”, that’s what it means, you know. It’s when you achieve something, and the other people don’t. And maybe they’ve been criticizing you before, and you’ve proved them wrong or something like that. So, personally I can’t stand the phrase, I think it’s a horrible visual imagery. I mean, it’s like something out of the Walking Dead.Heyang: It’s all the time we have for this week’s 英语词汇小百科，we’ll see you next week!

Xiaohua: This week we’re going to talk about something that I think Mark you’re going to be interested in again: what men say when they first start dating and what they actually mean. Mark: You say I’ll be interested. I know what men say when they start dating women, cause I’ve probably said them. But I’d be interested to know what women say and what they mean. But hopefully we’re doing that one next week. But yes. So what men say and what they mean. Listen up girls. You can learn a lot about us here in this bit now. OK. What’s the first one?Xiaohua: I’ve got a lot going on right now, so I’m not really looking for anything serious. Mark: Yes, I think generally you know, from my perspective as a man, we just say what we mean, don’t we? Well, let’s find out. According to the research, and this is not according to my own experience, Xiaohua, this is not me, but apparently it means “I’ve got profiles on a million dating sites. I want to have the option to date you if I want, but I also want to have the option to date 30 other women if I want to.”Xiaohua: OK. 所以当男人说……不太重要。Mark: This is a bit mean, isn’t it, really?Xiaohua: But I think this is to be expected from men when they say they’re not looking for something serious. There’s another thing that I think women don’t quite understand when men say that to them, what they actually mean. That is: I don’t care. You look great in whatever you put on. Mark: Now we’re entering a minefield for men. We have to be very careful with this kind of thing. If a man says “I don’t care. You look great in whatever you put on.” It seems that what we mean is that “We’ve watched you try on 16 or 17 different outfits, and if we have to wait any longer, we’re going to snap!”Xiaohua: Is this true?Mark: Do you know it is true, I mean, eh, now I am speaking from my own point of view. There’re very, very few sorts of clothes that women don’t look great in, whatever the woman actually. In my estimation, anyway, I think women look great in any clothing really.Xiaohua: But you know what they say in China, they say that straight guys usually don’t have a great sense of beauty. So if your boyfriend is kind of impatient at what you choose to wear or what you look great on, that means they’re straight, so you should be happy about that. Mark: Well you know, we’re drifting into the world of general broad stereotypes, and why not, cause we do it so well, don’t we, that sweeping brushstrokes of humanity and so forth. Of course that’s not a general rule, and the thing is, though, you know, why can’t women just choose a bit more quickly? Why?Xiaohua: Because the process of choosing outfits is such a pleasure. But of course, I know maybe not for their boyfriends. Mark: Yes, it’s an activity in itself I suppose, isn’t it?Xiaohua: Let’s move on. The next one that women get fooled all the time is when men say “no you don’t look fat!” what do you guys mean? Mark: Yes, I want to demonstrate something to you. Ask me that question now, go on. Xiaohua: Mark, do I look faaa…Mark: No! So it’s not just about saying no, it’s about how fast you say no.Xiaohua: I barely said the word fat. Alright. Mark: “NO!” If you leave a big gap, oh dear, you’re going to be in trouble. We will have a terrible day and you will make sure we do. Xiaohua: Let’s go to the next one that both men and women have been guilty of. So when men say “sorry, I’m just now seeing your text.”Mark: Oh my goodness, this is a terrible one. This one comes back to haunt me two or three times a week, I think. You get a Wechat message or perhaps a text message or email. And then you think oh yeah…okay…I can’t be bothered to reply to it. I’ll reply to it later. Coz you are not sure how you want to reply maybe. And then just as you are about to reply to it 4 hours later, they call you on the phone. And they say did you get me message? Of course you did. And then you have to lie and say you didn’t, don’t you? What can you say to that question? Yes, I did and I totally ignored it, which is the truth. Or, oh yeah, I just saw it just now. I haven’t checked my messages all day. Xiaohua: So don’t get fooled by that, girls! And guys! I think it can happen on both sides. Mark: Yes, I think that’s a universal one, isn’t it? We’ve all done it. Xiaohua: And the next one I think is strictly limited to guys. Guys like to say “It’s up to you” to girls all the time. Mark: Well, cause we don’t care. What we want is a quiet life. That’s the key golden rule of being a man. We just want a quiet life. We actually couldn’t care less what you wear. We don’t care what we’re having for dinner. And we couldn’t care less what restaurant we go to. But we do care about what TV we watch. Mark: That’s our domain I think really. We can be a bit picky about that. Xiaohua: I guess having slammed men for so much I think we should give them some credit for telling the truth. Shouldn’t we?Mark: Yes. The last one we are going to talk about is what do men mean when we say “I like you”. What do you think that might mean? Xiaohua: I have no idea because I know when women say this it could mean a zillion things. Mark: It could mean anything if a woman said it. When a guy says “I like you,” it means “I like you.” Cause we are straightforward and simple creatures. And we really just generally say what we think. Xiaohua: That makes it a lot easier on us girls, Mark. And I have to say “I like you Mark.” But that could mean anything. Mark: And I like you, which means what it says. Xiaohua: Thank you. And that brings us to the end of this week’s Word of the Week.

Xiaohua: Hello and welcome to Round Table’s Word of the Week. This week, we are talking about one of my favorite topics, astrology, 星座！Mark: Oh, you are interested in astrology, are you?Xiaohua: Yeah!Mark: Not to be confused with astronomy, although of course they are linked, because astrology seeks to determine human characteristics from analysis of star patterns or constellations.Xiaohua:其实在早期的时候，英语里面的astrology和astronomy的意思都是一样的。Do you know that astrology actually used to mean astronomy? It’s only later that they got to mean different things.Mark: I didn’t know that. But we just explained that there is obviously a link between the constellations.Xiaohua: So let’s go through these twelve horoscopes, shall we?Mark: Yep, let’s go through them. There are twelve of them. So there is Capricorn, that’s the goat.Xiaohua: Capricorn是摩羯座。Mark: This comes from the Latin, Capricornus, which means "horned like a goat."Xiaohua: 带角的山羊就是Capricorn的意思。Mark: Then we have the Aquarius, the water carrier, again from the latin meaning "water carrier." Quite straightforward.Xiaohua: 水瓶座拉丁文里面的意思就是水瓶。Mark: Then there is the Pisces the fish. Actually, it’s from the Latin for "fish" .Xiaohua: Pisces , 双鱼座，在拉丁文里面是”鱼”的复数形式。Mark: We have Aries the "ram", another horned animal.Xiaohua: 白羊座是Aries。Mark: Taurus is the "bull".Xiaohua: Taurus金牛座。Mark: And then Gemini the "twins" Xiaohua: 双子座是一对孪生子。Mark: After that is Cancer, the "crab".Xiaohua: Cancer是巨蟹座的意思，因为Cancer在拉丁语里面就是螃蟹。Mark: And then Leo, the "lion".Xiaohua: Leo,狮子座。Mark: Then there is Virgo, "the virgin".Xiaohua: Virgo，处女座。Mark: And Libra. Libra is interesting, it’s the scales. And this comes from the Latin libra, meaning "pound” or “balance".Xiaohua: Libra在拉丁语里面就是”平衡”和”称”的意思，所以它是天秤座的名称。Mark: That’s quite interesting, ‘cause lb, which is short-form of libra, is still used in some countries like the United States and Great Britain, for the weight measurement of pounds, lb. Then there is Scropio, the "scorpion".Xiaohua: 天蝎座。Mark: Finally Sagittarius, which is the "archer."Xiaohua: Sagittarius是拉丁语里的"archer"“射手”的意思。Mark: Now my question is, which one are you, Xiaohua?Xiaohua: Ok, I am a Cancer. And I used to hate this word so much because it also means “malignant tumor”! I always thought “why is it that they have to be the same?”Mark: Well, that’s right. Originally it meant the crab, and later it gained this medical reasoning. I must agree with you. I am quite pleased not to be Cancer as the stars, ‘cause people just don’t like that word these days of course for obvious reasons.Xiaohua: But I have say cancer people are very popular, because people love them.Mark: That’s right. Cancer people are supposed to be complicated and home-loving. And people with the sign love to be in familiar surroundings and nurture relationships. Is that true of you?Xiaohua: Very true, I’m a very typical Cancer. 巨蟹座据说是比较爱家，非常喜欢在熟悉的环境中培养人际关系。That’s who we are. But then Mark, what is your sign?Mark: My star sign is Pisces. And Pisces is the fish. It’s usually depicted as one fish swimming one way and the other fish the other way. In other words, sometimes we can get a little bit scatterbrained, a little bit emotional, and very creative and imaginative people. And I think I do fit the characteristics of a typical Pisces.Xiaohua: I see. 所以双鱼座非常浪漫、非常喜欢想象，有时候有点小分裂的特性，是马克的特质。I agree with that. I always see you with this dreamy look, as if you mind is wandering somewhere else. Mark: I think it’s important to have a good imagination, which is something that Pisces are blessed with. One of the other stars that I must mention…because I must say I don’t believe in any of this, except with one star sign which is Virgo. It does seem that there seems to be some truth. Now I speak as somebody who grew up in a family of Virgos, all of them! These people, the Virgo people, have the characteristics of being very neat and tidy, obsessed with time keeping and punctuality and so forth, and quite picky about their food. Can you imagine someone like me, a Pisces, with my sort of free-spirited ways and never wearing a watch even when people used to wear watches, living with a family of Virgos?Xiaohua: 好吧，像马克这样浪漫又不守时的双鱼座住在一个全部是处女座的家庭里的确是有点奇怪。But although Virgo people like to keep time and are incredibly neat, they are a little bit introverted and shy as well, right?Mark: Yes. But I think it’s true if you went around an office or something like that, and you saw a particularly neat desk, there is a one-in-twelve chance that person is a Virgo!Xiaohua: Hahhah..that’s true. Unfortunately we don’t have all the time to go through the problems of each and every astrological sign.Mark: No. And if there is one thing that astrology proves, it’s that there is one born every minute.Xiaohua: Yes.

Drew Griffin is the founder and mobile application developer at Mobile Apps Labs, author and public speaker. He develops unique Mobile Applications for the iPhone, iPad and Android devices as well as mobile marketing strategies that integrate interactiveness and commerce. He consults with businesses to develop mobile applications and and mobile app marketing strategies. He is a National and Public speaker. He continues to present at SCORE.org events, Local Chambers of Commerce, Local and National Conferences on topics related to Mobile Applications, Technology and Mobile Marketing. He is the publisher of Install Magazine, an interactive digital magazine to iOS Newsstand for iPhone and iPad. He is currently partnering with content creators to publish other Newsstand Magazines for iOS, individuals and businesses toi develop mobile apps for iOS. Android and Kindle.Specialties: Mobile App Developer, iOS Apps, iPhone Apps, iiPad Apps, Android Apps, Amazon Kindle Apps, Newsstand Applications. Utility Apps, Directory Apps, Mobile Marketing, Content Distribution Specialist, Author Drew Griffin is Author of Mobile App Formula: How To Develop Mobile Apps Even If You Are Not A Programmer, Founder and Publisher of Podcasting Magazine which is found exclusively on Newsstand for iPad and iPhone, and public speaker on topics related to App Development and Digital Publishing through Multicasting. Drew Helps individuals, businesses and organizations develop their ubiquity footprints, lead generation and conversion and social engagement. He does this by democratizing and leveraging emerging technologies and platforms utilizing Multicast Marketing. Drew Griffin We covered a variety of topics during the show and while I knew we were going to be talking about, mobile app development, digital magazines and Drew's new healthy lifestyle, I learned a lot about what he is doing and why was participating in Visalus. Congrats to Drew for already losing over 20 lbs. and he is super excited about becoming a healthier person. One cool thing about Visalus is their "Project 10 for Kids". To hear what they are doing, listen to the show at the 46:37 mark. The Mobile App Formula by Drew Griffin is available on Amazon today. If you are interested in learning more about creating your very own mobile app without having to know complicated coding, then definitely stop by Amazon and grab a copy of Drew's book by clicking on the book cover image. As promised, visit Amazon and enter the discount coupon code so that you can get 3 FREE months of Podcasting Magazine: COUPON CODE: GetintheGame Learn more from Jedi Knight and all-around awesome guy, Drew Griffin. Here's his contact info: Website Facebook Google Plus LinkedIn Twitter YouTube PodcastMag.com I always learn something when I talk with Drew and I sure hope you get a lot out of this show. Listen to the highlights of the podcast below: Who is Drew Griffin? What did Drew do before he got into app development?(4:02 Mark) What can you do with a mobile application? (12:24 Mark) Now this is a great story... hint - it has do with the power of mobile applications and how you can monetize them (18:46 mark) Drew gets into detail about what a digital magazine is and can do for you or your clients. (30:24 mark) Drew is getting healthy and sheding that weight. Wanna know what he's doing? (40:33 Mark) Giving back in a very special way. (46:37 Mark) Drew shares his "Break Away" moment. (54:50 Mark)