Podcasts about sean you

In this episode, Brian Mattocks and Sean Boyce dive into the vital role of precise outreach within the sales process, with a special focus on leveraging LinkedIn. They explore the unexpected drawbacks that can arise from poorly executed hunting campaigns and underscore the importance of selecting the most suitable communication channels. Moreover, the host stresses the significance of providing valuable content, like blog articles or podcasts, rather than jumping straight into sales pitches. They also shine a spotlight on the effectiveness of personalized and hybrid strategies as a way to distinguish oneself and attain superior sales outcomes.Sean Boyce has run his consultancy firm NxtStep Consulting for over 10 years but found he wasn't able to grow his network effectively and efficiently through in-person marketing or lead generation services. To solve this, Sean founded Podcast Chef, a full-service podcast management platform that helped him grow his network while making awesome content at the same time.Seeing the effectiveness of podcasting at reaching new people, Sean opened it up to others, helping people to start a podcast and delegating the management from post-production to booking guests. Here are a few of the topics we'll discuss on this episode of Hard to Market: The ineffective and spammy nature of most LinkedIn cold outreach messages The shift towards capitalistic behaviors in social media platforms as they prioritize monetization over community engagement The allure of hunting for new business opportunities, but the importance of investing in consistent and morally ethical processes Offering something of value generates a stronger response from potential customers. A hybrid approach that aligns with your interests and strengths can be effective. Generic sales messages are often ignored. Consistency and testing are necessary to find the right approach. Resources: NxtStep Consulting Podcast Chef Connect with Sean Boyce:LinkedInConnect with our host, Brian Mattocks: LinkedIn Email Quotables: 06:22 - “If you're spamming hundreds or thousands of messages a day and you're getting like random chance basically consistency back, you know what you're doing really isn't worth it. That's not what you want, is you want a process, you want a process that can produce predictable results. But at the same time, you also shouldn't be doing anything that makes you feel like dirty or gross. Like you really just shouldn't be investing in things that are trying to take advantage of people or being slimy. Really, anything that makes you feel uncomfortable, you really shouldn't be investing in those things.” 10:22 - “Farming, farming sounds attractive, but I think people struggle with how do I even get started with that? Or they haven't seen them a lot of good examples of it, and it doesn't promise immediate results. So it's, it's just, it can be more difficult for folks to get started with. And for those folks, I would say there's a hybrid approach here you may not have considered that I think is worth experimenting with. Realistically, that's what I was doing when I was looking for a better solution to the spray and pray model.” 09:26 - “But, the next thing that I want to talk about too is as you start to get in a good sort of honed in understanding of your target market, one of the things that you realize too is that not all channels, not all approaches are appropriate, right? There are tons of situations where that LinkedIn kind of approach, if you're already on LinkedIn, it might make sense as that's a place to sell LinkedIn advertising, for example, or sell something similar. But if your target market's not congregating there, if they're not doing anything on LinkedIn, you're not gonna, whatever, however successful or unsuccessful a campaign may be the right tool in the wrong place or the wrong time is never going to work.” 02:46 - “I was reading a Cory Doctorow article on this. It's, they call it, he calls it the “enshittification” of social media, basically where something starts, it's got this really great, like fa you know, fan base. People are active, engaged. It's honest in its own way. It doesn't mean it's perfect, but it's honest. And as the corporate machine tries to turn that whatever that magic is into money, it inherently defaults to the capitalistic behaviors that make being in that environment awful. You see it with Facebook, you see it with Reddit, you see it with all of these social media platforms where they're like, oh well we also need to take money. And they do that at the expense of the community that kind of built the environment.” 12:28 - Sean: “You love writing, do that, you love podcasting, do that, whatever it is, like just try to stand out from the crowd because I can't tell you how many messages I get on LinkedIn these days. It's like five to 10 probably per day for people deliberately just trying to sell me specifically lead gen, whatever. And I ignore all of it.”Brian: “Yeah, I think that gets back to the way we kind of have a magic bullet approach socially to a lot of stuff where it's like there is a single solution, and it is, you know, you can buy your way out of the problem. And there is, you know, and every marketer that hears this right now is, is going, yes, you're exactly right. There is no magic bullet solution to not knowing who you're selling to. There is no magic bullet solution to not knowing the value your solution offers.”

Sean O'Connor is the Director of Engineering at Datadog. Datadog is the essential monitoring and security platform for cloud applications. Sean discusses his transition from an individual contributor to management and shares why he chose Datadog, emphasizing the appeal of high-scale problems and the real business nature of the company. They delve into the importance of performance management and observability and cover the cultural and technical challenges Sean faces in managing a diverse, geographically spread team, and discuss the transition at Datadog from a decentralized model to more centralized platforms, the corresponding changes in both technical strategies and people management, and what excites him about Datadog's future, including the integration of security offerings into developers' daily experiences, and the evolution of Kubernetes and internal build and release tooling. __ Datadog (https://www.datadoghq.com/) Follow Datadog on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/datadog/), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/datadoghq/), Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/user/DatadogHQ), or Twitter (https://twitter.com/datadoghq). Follow Sean O'Connor on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/seanoc/) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/theSeanOC). Visit his website at seanoc.com (https://seanoc.com/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. WILL: And I'm your other host, Will Larry. And with us today is Sean O'Connor. He is the Director of Engineering at Datadog. Datadog is the essential monitoring and security platform for cloud applications. Sean, thank you for joining us. SEAN: Hi, thanks for having me on. VICTORIA: Yeah, I'm super excited to get to talking with you about everything cloud, and DevOps, and engineering. But why don't we first start with just a conversation about what's going on in your life? Is there any exciting personal moment coming up for you soon? SEAN: Yeah, my wife and I are expecting our first kiddo in the next few weeks, so getting us prepared for that as we can and trying to get as much sleep as we can. [laughs] WILL: Get as much sleep as you can now, so...[laughs] I have a question around that. When you first found out that you're going to be a dad, what was your feeling? Because I remember the feeling that I had; it was a mixed reaction of just everything. So, I just wanted to see what was your reaction whenever you found out that you're going to be a dad for the first time. SEAN: Yeah, I was pretty excited. My wife and I had been kind of trying for this for a little while. We're both kind of at the older end for new parents in our late 30s. So, yeah, excited but definitely, I don't know, maybe a certain amount of, I don't know about fear but, you know, maybe just concerned with change and how different life will be, but mostly excitement and happiness. [laughs] WILL: Yeah, I remember the excitement and happiness. But I also remember, like, wait, I don't know exactly what to do in this situation. And what about the situations that I have no idea about and things like that? So, I will tell you, kids are resilient. You're going to do great as a dad. [laughter] SEAN: Yep. Yeah, definitely; I think I feel much more comfortable about the idea of being a parent now than I may have been in my 20s. But yeah, definitely, the idea of being responsible for and raising a whole other human is intimidating. [laughs] VICTORIA: I think the fact that you're worried about it is a good sign [laughs], right? SEAN: I hope so. [laughs] VICTORIA: Like, you understand that it's difficult. You're going to be a great parent just by the fact that you understand it's difficult and there's a lot of work ahead. So, I think I'm really excited for you. And I'm glad we get to talk to you at this point because probably when the episode comes out, you'll be able to listen to it with your new baby in hand. So... WILL: Good. Excited for it. [laughs] VICTORIA: Yeah, love that. Well, great. Well, why don't you tell me a little bit more about your other background, your professional background? What brought you to the role you're into today? SEAN: Yeah. Well, like we mentioned in the beginning; currently, I'm a Director of Engineering at Datadog. I run our computing cloud team. It's responsible for all of our Kubernetes infrastructure, as well as kind of all the tooling for dealing with the cloud providers that we run on and as well as kind of [inaudible 02:54] crypto infrastructure. Within Datadog, I've always been in management roles though I've kind of bounced around. I've been here for about five and a half years. So, before this, I was running a data store infrastructure team. Before that, when I first came in, I was running the APM product team, kind of bounced around between product and infra. And that's kind of, I guess, been a lot of the story of much of my career is wearing lots of different hats and kind of bouncing around between kind of infrastructure-focused roles and product-focused roles. So, before this, I was running the back-end engineering and DevOps teams at Bitly. So, I was there for about five and a half years, started there originally as a software engineer. And before that, a lot of early-stage startups and consulting doing whatever needed doing, and getting to learn about lots of different kind of industries and domains, which is always fun. [laughs] VICTORIA: That's great. So, you had that broad range of experience coming from all different areas of operations in my mind, which is, like, security and infrastructure, and now working your way into a management position. What was the challenge for you in making that switch from being such a strong individual contributor into an effective manager? SEAN: Sure. You know, I think certainly there is a lot of kind of the classic challenges of learning to let go but still staying involved, right? You know, as a manager, if you're working on critical path tasks hands-on yourself, that's probably not a good sign. [laughs] On the other hand, if you come, like, completely divorced from what your team is doing, especially as, like, a team lead level kind of manager, you know, that's not great either. So, figuring that balancing act definitely was a bit tricky for me. Similarly, I think time management and learning to accept that, especially as you get into, like, further steps along in your career that, like, you know, it's not even a question of keeping all the balls in the air, but more figuring out, like, what balls are made out of rubber and which ones are made out of glass, and maybe keeping those ones in the air. [laughs] So, just a lot of those kind of, like, you know, prioritization and figuring out, like, what the right level of involvement and context is, is definitely the eternal learning, I think, for me. [laughs] WILL: I remember whenever I was looking to change jobs, kind of my mindset was I wanted to work at thoughtbot more because of the values. And I wanted to learn and challenge myself and things like that. And it was so much more, but those were some of the main items that I wanted to experience in my next job. So, when you changed, and you went from Bitly to Datadog, what was that thing that made you say, I want to join Datadog? SEAN: Yeah, that was definitely an interesting job search and transition. So, at that point in time, I was living in New York. I was looking to stay in New York. So, I was kind of talking to a bunch of different companies. Both from personal experience and from talking to some friends, I wasn't super interested in looking at, like, working at mostly, like, the super big, you know, Google, Amazon, Meta type of companies. But also, having done, like, super early stage, you know, like, seed, series A type of companies, having played that game, I wasn't in a place in my life to do that either. [laughs] So, I was looking kind of in between that space. So, this would have been in 2018. So, I was talking to a lot of, like, series A and series B-type companies. And most of them were, like, real businesses. [laughs] Like, they may not be profitable yet, but, like, they had a very clear idea of how they would get there and, like, what that would look like. And so, that was pleasant compared to some past points in my career. But a lot of them, you know, I was effectively doing, like, automation of human processes, which is important. It has value. But it means that, like, realistically, this company will never have more than 50 servers. And when I worked at Bitly, I did have a taste for kind of working in those high-scale, high-availability type environments. So, Datadog initially was appealing because it kind of checked all those boxes of, you know, very high-scale problems, high availability needs, a very real business. [laughs] This is before Datadog had gone public. And then, as I started to talk to them and got to know them, I also really liked a lot of kind of the culture and all the people I interacted with. So, it became a very clear choice very quickly as that process moved along. VICTORIA: Yeah, a very real business. Datadog is one of the Gartner's Magic leaders for APM and observability in the industry. And I understand you're also one of the larger SaaS solutions running Kubernetes, right? SEAN: Yep. Yeah, at this point. Five years ago, that story was maybe a little bit different. [laughs] But yeah, no, no, we definitely have a pretty substantial Kubernetes suite that we run everything on top of. And we get the blessings and curses of we get some really cool problems to work on, but there's also a lot of problems that we come across that when we talk to kind of peers in the industry about kind of how they're trying to solve them, they don't have answers yet either. [laughs] So, we get to kind of figure out a lot of that kind of early discovery games. [laughs] VICTORIA: Yeah. I like how exciting and growing this industry is around kind of your compute and monitoring the performance of your applications. I wonder if you could kind of speak to our audience a little bit, who may not have a big technical background, about just why it's important to think about performance management and observability early on in your application. SEAN: There can be a few pieces there. One of the bigger ones, I think, is thinking about that kind of early and getting used to working with that kind of tooling early in a project or a product. I think it has an analogous effect to, like, thinking about, like, compounding interest in, like, a savings account or investing or something like that. In that, by having those tools available early on and having that visibility available early on, you can really both initially get a lot of value and just kind of understanding kind of what's happening with your system and very quickly troubleshoot problems and make sure things are running efficiently. But then that can help get to a place where you get to that, like, flywheel effect as you're kind of building your product of, as you're able to solve things quickly, that means you have more time to invest in other parts of the product, and so on and so forth. So, yeah, it's one of those things where kind of the earlier you can get started on that, the more that benefit gets amplified over time. And thankfully, with Datadog and other offerings like that now, you can get started with that relatively quickly, right? You're not having to necessarily make the choice of, like, oh, can I justify spending a week, a month, whatever, setting up all my own infrastructure for this, as opposed to, you know, plugging in a credit card and getting going right away? And not necessarily starting with everything from day zero but getting started with something and then being able to build on that definitely can be a worthwhile trade-off. [laughs] VICTORIA: That makes sense. And I'm curious your perspective, Will, as a developer on our Lift Off team, which is really about the services around that time when you want to start taking it really seriously. Like, you've built an app [laughs]. You know it's a viable product, and there's a market for it. And just, like, how you think about observability when you're doing your app building. WILL: The approach I really take is, like, what is the end goal? I'm currently on a project right now that we came in later than normal. We're trying to work through that. SEAN: I haven't come from, you know, that kind of consulting and professional services and support kind of place. I'm curious about, like, what, if any, differences or experiences do you have, like, in that context of, like, how do you use your observability tools or, like, what value they have as opposed to maybe more, like, straight product development? VICTORIA: Right. So, we recently partnered with, you know, our platform engineering team worked with the Lift Off team to create a product from scratch. And we built in observability tools with Prometheus, and Grafana, and Sentry so that the developers could instrument their app and build metrics around the performance in the way they expected the application to work so that when it goes live and meets real users, they're confident their users are able to actually use the app with a general acceptable level of latency and other things that are really key to the functionality of the app. And so, I think that the interesting part was, with the founders who don't have a background in IT operations or application monitoring and performance, it sort of makes sense. But it's still maybe a stretch to really see the full value of that, especially when you're just trying to get the app out the door. SEAN: Nice. VICTORIA: [chuckles] That's my answer. What kind of challenges do you have in your role managing this large team in a very competitive company, running a ton of Kubernetes clusters? [laughs] What's your challenges in your director of engineering role there? SEAN: You know, it's definitely a mix of kind of, like, technical or strategic challenges there, as well as people challenges. On the technical and strategic side, the interesting thing for our team right now is we're in the middle of a very interesting transition. Still, today, the teams at Datadog work in very much a 'You build it, you run it' kind of model, right? So, teams working on user-facing features in addition to, like, you know, designing those features and writing the code for that, they're responsible for deploying that code, offering the services that code runs within, being on call for that, so on and so forth. And until relatively recently, that ownership was very intense to the point where some teams maybe even had their own build and release processes. They were running their own data stores. And, like, that was very valuable for much of our history because that let those teams to be very agile and not have to worry about, like, convincing the entire company to change if they needed to make some kind of change. But as we've grown and as, you know, we've kind of taken on a lot more complexity in our environment from, you know, running across more providers, running across more regions, taking on more of regulatory concerns, to kind of the viability of running everything entirely [inaudible 12:13] for those product teams, it has become much harder. [laughs] You start to see a transition where previously the infrastructure teams were much more acting as subject matter experts and consultants to, now, we're increasingly offering more centralized platforms and offerings that can offload a lot of that kind of complexity and the stuff that isn't the core of what the other product-focused teams are trying to do. And so, as we go through that change, it means internally, a lot of our teams, and how we think about our roles, and how we go about doing our work, changes from, like, a very, you know, traditional reliability type one on one consultation and advising type role to effectively internal product development and internal platform development. So, that's a pretty big both mindset and practice shift. [laughs] So, that's one that we're kind of evolving our way through. And, of course, as what happens to kind of things, like, you still have to do all the old stuff while you're doing the new thing. [laughs] You don't get to just stop and just do the new thing. So, that's been an interesting kind of journey and one that we're always kind of figuring out as we go. That is a lot of kind of what I focus on. You know, people wise, you know, we have an interesting aim of...There's about 40 people in my org. They are spread across EMEA and North America with kind of, let's say, hubs in New York and Paris. So, with that, you know, you have a pretty significant time zone difference and some non-trivial cultural differences. [laughs] And so, you know, making sure that everybody is still able to kind of work efficiently, and communicate effectively, and collaborate effectively, while still working within all those constraints is always an ongoing challenge. [laughs] WILL: Yeah, you mentioned the different cultures, the different types of employees you have, and everyone is not the same. And there's so many cultures, so many...whatever people are going through, you as a leader, how do you navigate through that? Like, how do you constantly challenge yourself to be a better leader, knowing that not everyone can be managed the same way, that there's just so much diversity, probably even in your company among your employees? SEAN: I think a lot of it starts from a place of listening and paying attention to kind of just see where people are happy, where they feel like they have unmet needs. As an example, I moved from that last kind of data store-focused team to this computing cloud team last November. And so, as part of that move, probably for the first two or three months that I was in the role, I wasn't particularly driving much in the way of changes or setting much of a vision beyond what the team already had, just because as the new person coming in, it's usually kind of hard to have a lot of credibility and/or even just have the idea of, like, you know, like you're saying, like, what different people are looking for, or what they need, how they will respond best. I just spend a lot of time just talking to people, getting to know the team, building those relationships, getting to know those people, getting to know those groups. And then, from there, figuring out, you know, both where the kind of the high priority areas where change or investment is needed. But then also figuring out, yeah, kind of based on all that, what's the right way to go about that with the different groups? Because yeah, it's definitely isn't a one size fits all solution. But for me, it's always kind of starting from a place of listening and understanding and using that to develop, I guess, empathy for the people involved and understanding their perspectives and then figuring it out from there. I imagine–I don't know, but I imagine thoughtbot's a pretty distributed company. How do you all kind of think about some of those challenges of just navigating people coming from very different contexts? WILL: Yeah, I was going to ask Victoria that because Victoria is one of the leaders of our team here at thoughtbot. So, Victoria, what are your thoughts on it? VICTORIA: I have also one of the most distributed teams at thoughtbot because we do offer 24/7 support to some clients. And we cover time zones from the Pacific through West Africa. So, we just try to create a lot of opportunities for people to engage, whether it's remotely, especially offering a lot of virtual engagement and social engagement remotely. But then also, offering some in-person, whether it's a company in-person event, or encouraging people to engage with their local community and trying to find conferences, meetups, events that are relevant to us as a business, and a great opportunity for them to go and get some in-person interaction. So, I think then encouraging them to bring those ideas back. And, of course, thoughtbot is known for having just incredible remote async communication happening all the time. It's actually almost a little oppressive to keep up with, to be honest, [laughs] but I love it. There's just a lot of...there's GitHub issues. There's Slack communications. There's, like, open messages. And people are really encouraged to contribute to the conversation and bring up any idea and any problem they're having, and actively add to and modify our company policies and procedures so that we can do the best work with each other and know how to work with each other, and to put out the best products. I think that's key to having that conversation, especially for a company that's as big as Datadog and has so many clients, and has become such a leader in this metrics area. Being able to listen within your company and to your clients is probably going to set you up for success for any, like, tech leadership role [laughs]. I'm curious, what are you most excited about now that you've been in the role for a little while? You've heard from a lot of people within the company. Can you share anything in your direction in the next six months or a year that you're super excited about? SEAN: So, there's usually kind of probably two sides to that question of kind of, like, from a product and business standpoint and from an internal infrastructure standpoint, given that's where my day-to-day focus is. You know, on the product side, one thing that's been definitely interesting to watch in my time at Datadog is we really made the transition from kind of, like, a point solution type product to much more of a platform. For context, when I joined Datadog, I think logs had just gone GA, and APM was in beta, I think. So, we were just starting to figure out, like, how we expand beyond the initial infrastructure metrics product. And, obviously, at this point, now we have a whole, you know, suite of offerings. And so, kind of the opportunities that come with that, as far as both different spaces that we can jump into, and kind of the value that we can provide by having all those different capabilities play together really nicely, is exciting and is cool. Like, you know, one of the things that definitely lit an interesting light bulb for me was talking to some of the folks working on our newer security offerings and them talking about how, obviously, you want to meet, you know, your normal requirements in that space, so being able to provide the visibility that, you know, security teams are looking for there. But also, figuring out how we integrate that information into your developers' everyday experience so that they can have more ownership over that aspect of the systems that they're building and make everybody's job easier and more efficient, right? Instead of having, you know, the nightmare spreadsheet whenever a CVE comes out and having some poor TPM chase half the company to get their libraries updated, you know, being able to make that visible in the product where people are doing their work every day, you know, things like that are always kind of exciting opportunities. On the internal side, we're starting to think about, like, what the next major evolution of our kind of Kubernetes and kind of internal build and release tooling looks like. Today, a lot of kind of how teams interact with our Kubernetes infrastructure is still pretty raw. Like, they're working directly with specific Kubernetes clusters, and they are exposed to all the individual Kubernetes primitives, which is very powerful, but it's also a pretty steep learning curve. [laughs] And for a lot of teams, it ends up meaning that there's lots of, you know, knobs that they have to know what they do. But at the end of the day, like, they're not getting a lot of benefit from that, right? There's more just opportunity for them to accidentally put themselves in a bad place. So, we're starting to figure out, like, higher level abstractions and offerings to simplify how all that for teams look like. So, we're still a bit early days in working through that, but it's exciting to figure out, like, how we can still give teams kind of the flexibility and the power that they need but make those experiences much easier and not have to have them become Kubernetes experts just to deploy a simple process. And, yes, so there's some lots of fun challenges in there. [laughs] Mid-Roll Ad: When starting a new project, we understand that you want to make the right choices in technology, features, and investment but that you don't have all year to do extended research. In just a few weeks, thoughtbot's Discovery Sprints deliver a user-centered product journey, a clickable prototype or Proof of Concept, and key market insights from focused user research. We'll help you to identify the primary user flow, decide which framework should be used to bring it to life, and set a firm estimate on future development efforts. Maximize impact and minimize risk with a validated roadmap for your new product. Get started at: tbot.io/sprint. WILL: I have a question around your experience. So, you've been a developer around 20 years. What has been your experience over that 20 years or about of the growth in this market? Because I can only imagine what the market was, you know, in the early 2000s versus right now because I still remember...I still have nightmares of dial-up, dial tone tu-tu-tu. No one could call you, stuff like that. So, what has been your experience, just seeing the market grow from where you started? SEAN: Sure, yeah. I think probably a lot of the biggest pieces of it are just seeing the extent to which...I want to say it was Cory Doctorow, but I'm not sure who actually originally coined the idea, but the idea that, you know, software is eating the world, right? Like, eventually, to some degree, every company becomes a software company because software ends up becoming involved in pretty much everything that we as a society do. So, definitely seeing the progression of that, I think, over that time period has been striking, you know, especially when I was working in more consulting contexts and working more in companies and industries where like, you know, the tech isn't really the focus but just how much that, you know, from an engineering standpoint, relatively basic software can fundamentally transform those businesses and those industries has definitely been striking. And then, you know, I think from a more individual perspective, seeing as, you know, our tools become more sophisticated and easier to access, just seeing how much of a mixed bag that has become [laughs]. And just kind of the flavor of, like, you know, as more people have more powerful tools, that can be very enabling and gives voice to many people. But it also means that the ability of an individual or a small group to abuse those tools in ways that we're maybe not fully ready to deal with as a society has been interesting to see how that's played out. VICTORIA: Yeah. I think you bring up some really great points there. And it reminds me of one of my favorite quotes is that, like, the future is here—it's just not evenly distributed. [laughs] And so, in some communities that I go to, everyone knows what Kubernetes is; everyone knows what DevOps is. It's kind of, like, old news. [laughs] And then, some people are still just like, "What?" [laughs]. It's interesting to think about that and think about the implications on your last point about just how dangerous the supply chain is in building software and how some of these abstractions and some of these things that just make it so easy to build applications can also introduce a good amount of risk into your product and into your business, right? So, I wonder if you can tell me a little bit more about your perspective on security and DevSecOps and what founders might be thinking about to protect their IP and their client's data in their product. SEAN: That one is interesting and tricky in that, like, we're in a little bit of, like, things are better and worse than they ever have been before [laughs], right? Like, there is a certain level of, I think, baseline knowledge and competency that I think company leaders really just have to have now, part of, like, kind of table stakes, which can definitely be challenging, and that, like, that probably was much less, if even the case, you know, 10-20 years ago in a lot of businesses. As an example, right? Like, obviously, like if it's a tech-focused company, like, that can be a thing. But, like, if you're running a plumbing business with a dozen trucks, let's say, like, 20 years ago, you probably didn't have to think that much about data privacy and data security. But, like, now you're almost certainly using some kind of electronic system to kind of manage all your customer records, and your job scheduling, and all that kind of stuff. So, like, now, that is something that's a primary concern for your business. On the flip side of that, I think there is much better resources, and tools, and practices available out there. I forget the name of the tool now. But I remember recently, I was working with a company on the ISO long string of numbers certifications that you tend to want to do when you're handling certain types of data. There was a tool they were able to work with that basically made it super easy for them to, like, gather all the evidence for that and whatnot, in a way where, like, you know, in the past, you probably just had to hire a compliance person to know what you had to do and how to present that. But now, you could just sign up for a SaaS product. And, like, obviously, it can't just do it for you. Like, it's about making your policies. But it still gave you enough support where if you're, like, bootstrapping a company, like, yeah, you probably don't need to hire a specialist to [inaudible 25:08], which is a huge deal. You know, similarly, a lot of things come much safer by default. When you think about, like, the security on something like an iPhone, or an iPad, or an Android device, like, just out of the box, that's light-years ahead of whatever Windows PC you were going to buy ten years ago. [laughs] And so, that kind of gives you a much better starting place. But some interesting challenges that come with that, right? And that we do now, literally, every person on the planet is walking around with microphones and cameras and all kinds of sensors on them. It's an interesting balance, I think. Similarly, I'm curious how you all think about kind of talking with your clients and your customers about this because I'm sure you all have a non-trivial amount of education to do there. [laughs] VICTORIA: Yeah, definitely. And I think a lot of it comes in when we have clients who are very early founders, and they don't have a CTO or a technical side of their business, and advising them on exactly what you laid out. Like, here's the baseline. Like, here's where you want to start from. We generally use the CIS controls, this internet for internet security. It puts out a really great tool set, too, for some things you were mentioning earlier. Let's figure out how to report and how to identify all of the things that we're supposed to be doing. It could be overwhelming. It's a lot. Like, in my past role as VP of Operations at Pluribus Digital, I was responsible for helping our team continue to meet our...we had three different ISO long number certifications [laughs]. We did a CMMI as well, which has come up a few times in my career. And they give you about a couple of hundreds of controls that you're supposed to meet. It's in very kind of, like, legalese that you have to understand. And that's a pretty big gap to solve for someone who doesn't have the technical experience to start. Like, what you were saying, too, that it's more dangerous and more safer than it has been before. So, if we make choices for those types of clients in very safe, trusted platforms, then they're going to be set up for success and not have to worry about those details as much. And we kind of go forward with confidence that if they are going to have to come up against compliance requirements or local state regulations, which are also...there's more of those every day, and a lot of liability you can face as a founder, especially if you're dealing with, like, health or financial data, in the state of California, for example. [laughs] It puts you at a really big amount of liability that I don't think we've really seen the impact of how bad it can be and will be coming out in the next couple of years now that that law has passed. But that's kind of the approach that we like to think. It's like, you know, there's a minimum we can do that will mitigate a lot of this risk [laughs], so let's do that. Let's do the basics and start off on the right foot here. SEAN: Yeah, no, that makes sense. Yeah, it's definitely something I've come to appreciate, especially doing work in regulated spaces is, when you do reach the point where you do need to have some kind of subject matter expert involved, whether it's somebody in-house or a consultant or an advisor, I've definitely learned that usually, like, the better ones are going to talk to you in terms of, like, what are the risk trade-offs you're making here? And what are the principles that all these detailed controls or guidelines are looking to get at? As opposed to just, like, walking you through the box-checking exercise. In my experience, a really good lawyer or somebody who will talk to you about risk versus just saying whether or not you can do something. [laughs] It has a very similar feeling in my experience. VICTORIA: Yeah, it's a lot about risk. And someone's got to be able to make those trade-off decisions, and it can be really tough, but it's doable. And I think it shouldn't scare people away. And there's lots of people, lots of ways to do it also, which is exciting. So, I think it's a good space to be in and to see it growing and pay attention to. [laughs] It's fun for me to be in a different place where we're given the opportunity to kind of educate or bring people along in a security journey versus having it be a top-down executive-level decision that we need to meet this particular security standard, and that's the way it's going to be. [laughs] Yeah, so that I appreciate. Is there anything that really surprised you in your conversations with Datadog or with other companies around these types of services for, like, platform engineering and observability? Is there anything that surprised you in the discovery process with potential clients for your products? SEAN: I think one of the biggest surprises, or maybe not a surprise but an interesting thing is, to what extent, you know, for us, I don't know if this is still the case, but I think in many places, like, we're probably more often competing against nothing than a competing product. And by that, I mean, especially as you look at some of our more sophisticated products like APM, or profiling, it's not so much that somebody has an existing tool that we're looking to replace; it's much more than this is just not a thing they do today. [laughs] And so, that leads to a very interestingly different conversation that I think, you know, relates to some of what we were saying with security where, you know, I think a non-trivial part of what our sales and technical enablement folks do is effectively education for our customers and potential customers of why they might want to use tools like this, and what kind of value they could get from them. The other one that's been interesting is to see how different customers' attitudes around tools like this have evolved as they've gone through their own migration to the cloud journeys, right? We definitely have a lot of customers that, I think, you know, 5, 10 years ago, when they were running entirely on-prem, using a SaaS product would have been a complete non-starter. But as they move into the cloud, both as they kind of generally get more comfortable with the idea of delegating some of these responsibilities, as well as they start to understand kind of, like, the complexity of the tooling required as their environment gets more complex, the value of a dedicated product like something like Datadog as opposed to, you know, what you kind of get out of the box with the cloud providers or what you might kind of build on your own has definitely been interesting. [laughs] VICTORIA: Is there a common point that you find companies get to where they're like, all right, now, I really need something? Can you say a little bit more about, like, what might be going on in the organization at that time? SEAN: You know, I think there could be a few different paths that companies take to it. Some of it, I think, can come from a place of...I think, especially for kind of larger enterprise customers making a transition like that, they tend to be taking a more holistic look at kind of their distinct practices and seeing what they want to change as they move into the cloud. And often, kind of finding an observability vendor is just kind of, like, part of the checklist there. [laughs] Not to dismiss it, but just, like, that seems to be certainly one path into it. I think for smaller customers, or maybe customers that are more, say, cloud-native, I think it can generally be a mix of either hitting a point where they're kind of done with the overhead of trying to maintain their own infrastructure of, like, trying to run their own ELK stack and, like, build all the tooling on top of that, and keeping that up and running, and the costs associated with that. Or, it's potentially seeing the sophistication of tooling that, like, a dedicated provider can afford to invest that realistically, you're never going to invest in on your own, right? Like, stuff like live profiling is deeply non-trivial to implement. [laughs] I think especially once people get some experience with a product like Datadog, they start thinking about, like, okay, how much value are we actually getting out of doing this on our own versus using a more off-the-shelf product? I don't know if we've been doing it post-COVID. But I remember pre-COVID...so Datadog has a huge presence at re:Invent and the other similar major cloud provider things. And I remember for a few years at re:Invent, you know, we obviously had, like, the giant 60x60 booth in the main expo floor, where we were giving demos and whatnot. But they also would have...AWS would do this, like, I think they call it the interactive hall where companies could have, like, more hands-on booths, and you had, like, a whole spectrum of stuff. And there were, like, some companies just had, like, random, like, RC car setups or Lego tables, just stuff like that. But we actually did a setup where there was a booth of, I think, like, six stations. People would step up, and they would race each other to solve a kind of faux incident using Datadog. The person who would solve it first would win a switch. I think we gave away a huge number of switches as part of that, which at first I was like, wow, that seems expensive. [laughs] But then later, you know, I was mostly working the main booth at that re:Invent. So by the, like, Wednesday and Thursday of re:Invent, I'd have people walking up to the main booth being like, "Hey, so I did the thing over at the Aria. And now I installed Datadog in prod last night, and I have questions." I was like, oh, okay. [laughs] So, I think just, like, the power of, like, getting that hands-on time, and using some of the tools, and understanding the difference there is what kind of gets a lot of people to kind of change their mind there. [laughs] VICTORIA: You'd get me with a switch right now. I kind of want one, but I don't want to buy one. SEAN: [laughs] WILL: Same. [laughs] VICTORIA: Because I know it'll take up all my time. SEAN: Uh-huh. That's fair. [laughs] VICTORIA: But I will try to win one at a conference for sure. I think that's true. And it makes sense that because your product is often going with clients that don't have these practices yet, that as soon as you give them exposure to it, you see what you can do with it, that becomes a very powerful selling tool. Like, this is the value of the product, right? [laughs] SEAN: Yeah, there is also something we see, and I think most of our kind of peers in the industry see is, very often, people come in initially looking for and using a single product, like, you know, infrastructure, metrics, or logs. And then, as they see that and see where that touches other parts of the product, their usage kind of grows and expands over time. I would obviously defer to our earnings calls for exact numbers. But generally speaking, more or less kind of half of our new business is usually expanded usage from existing customers as opposed to new customers coming in. So, I think there's also a lot of just kind of organic discovery and building of trust over time that happens there, which is interesting. VICTORIA: One of my favorite points to make, which is that SRE sounds very technical and, like, this really extreme thing. But to make it sound a little more easier, is that it is how you validate that the user experience is what you expect it to be. [laughs] I wonder if you have any other thoughts you want to add to that, just about, like, SRE and user experience and how that all connects for real business value. SEAN: I think a lot of places where, you know, we've both seen internally ourselves and with customers is, you know; obviously, different companies operate in different models and whatnot. Where people have seen success is where, you know, people with formal SRE titles or team names can kind of be coming in as just kind of another perspective on the various kind of things that teams are trying to drive towards. The places reliability is successfully integrated is when they can kind of make that connection that you were talking about. It's, like, obviously, everybody should go take their vitamins, but, like, what actual value is coming from this, right? Nobody wants to have outages, but, like, to do the work to invest in reliability, often, like, it can be hard to say, like, okay, what's the actual difference between before and after? Having people who can help draw those connections and help weigh those trade-offs, I think, can definitely be super helpful. But it is generally much more effective, I think, in my experience, when it does come from that perspective of, like, what value are we providing? What are we trading off as part of this? As opposed to just, well, you should do this because it's the right thing to do, kind of a moralistic perspective. [laughs] But, I don't know, how do you all kind of end up having that conversation with your customers and clients? VICTORIA: That's exactly it. That's the same. It's starting that conversation about, like, well, what happens when this experience fails, which designers don't necessarily think about? What's, like, the most important paths that you want a user to take through your application that we want to make sure works? And when you tie it all back there, I think then when the developers are understanding how to create those metrics and how to understand user behavior, that's when it becomes really powerful so that they're getting the feedback they need to do the right code, and to make the right changes. Versus just going purely on interviews [laughs] and not necessarily, like, understanding behavior within the app. I think that starts to make it clear. SEAN: Part of that, I think that's been an interesting experience for us is also just some of the conversation there around, like, almost the flip side of, when are you investing potentially too much in that, right? Because, like, especially after a certain point, the cost of additional gains grows exponentially, right? Each one of those nines gets more and more expensive. [laughs] And so, having the conversation of, like, do you actually need that level of reliability, or, like, is that...just like what you're saying. Like, you know, kind of giving some of that context and that pressure of, like, yeah, we can do that, but, like, this is what it's going to cost. Is that what you want to be spending your money on? Kind of things can also be an interesting part of that conversation. VICTORIA: That's a really good point that, you know, you can set goals that are too high [laughs] and not necessary. So, it does take a lot of just understanding about your data and your users to know what are acceptable levels of error. I think the other thing that you can think about, too, like, what could happen, and we've seen it happen with some startups, is that, like, something within the app is deeply broken, but you don't know. And you just think that you're not having user engagement, or that users are signing off, or, like, you know, not opening the app after the first day. So, if you don't have any way to really actively monitor it and you're not spending money on an active development team, you can have some method to just be confident that the app is working and to make your life less miserable [laughs] when you have a smaller team supporting, especially if you're trying to really minimize your overhead for running an application. SEAN: Yep. It's surprisingly hard to know when things are broken sometimes. [laughs] VICTORIA: Yes, and then extremely painful when you find out later [laughs] because that's when it's become a real problem, yeah. I wonder, are there any other questions you have for me or for Will? SEAN: How big of an organization is thoughtbot at this time? VICTORIA: Close to 75 people? We're, yeah, between the Americas and the [inaudible 38:31] region. So, that's where we're at right now, yeah. SEAN: Nice. At that size, like, and I guess it sounds like you're pretty heavily distributed, so maybe some of this doesn't happen as much, but, like, one of the things I definitely remember...so, when I joined Datadog, it was probably about 500 people. And I think we're just under 5,000 now. There are definitely some points where there were surprisingly, like, physical aspects to where it became a problem of just, like, where certain teams didn't fit into a room anymore. [laughs] Like, I had surprise in the changes in that, like, dynamic. I'm curious if you've all kind of run into any kind of, I don't know, similar interesting thresholds or changes as you've kind of grown and evolved. WILL: I will say this, we're about 100, I think, Victoria. VICTORIA: Oh, okay, we're 100 people. I think, you know, I've only been at thoughtbot for just over a year now. And my understanding of the history is that when we were growing before COVID, there's always been a very intentionality about growth. And there was never a goal to get to a huge size or to really grow beyond just, like, a steady, profitable growth. [laughs] So, when we were growing in person, there were new offices being stood up. So, we, you know, maybe started out of New York and Boston and grew to London. And then, there was Texas, and I think a few other ones that started. Then with COVID, the decision was made to go fully remote, and I think that's opened up a lot of opportunities for us. And from my understanding in the previous and the past, is that there's a big shift to be fully remote. It's been challenging, where I think a lot of people miss some of the in-person days, and I'm sure it's definitely lonely working remote all day by yourself. So, you have to really proactively find opportunities to see other people and to engage remotely. But I think also, we hire people from so many different places and so much different talent, and then, also, you know, better informs our products and creates a different, you know, energy within the company that I think is really fun and really exciting for us now. WILL: Yeah, I would agree with that because I think the team that I'm on has about 26 people on the Lift Off team. And we're constantly thinking of new ways to get everyone involved. But as a developer, me myself being remote, I love talking to people. So, I try to be proactive and, like, connect with the people I'm working with and say, "Hey, how can I help you with this?" Let's jump in this room and just work together, chat together, and stuff like that, so... And it has opened the door because the current project that I'm on, I would never have had an opportunity to be on. I think it's based in Utah, and I'm in South Florida. So, there's just no way if we weren't remote that I'd been a part of it. So... SEAN: Nice. And I can definitely appreciate that. I remember when we first started COVID lockdown; I think, at that point, Datadog was probably about...Datadog engineering was probably about 30% remote, so certainly a significant remote contingent but mixed. But my teams were pretty remote-heavy. So, in some ways, not a lot changed, right? Like, I think more people on my team were, like, who are all these other people in my house now instead of [laughs], I mean, just transition from being in an office to working from home. But I do remember maybe, like, about six months in, starting to feel, yeah, some of the loneliness and the separation of just, like, not being able to do, like, quarterly team meetups or stuff like that. So, it's definitely been an interesting transition. For context, at this point, we kind of have a hybrid setup. So, we still have a significant kind of full-time remote contingent, and then four people who are in office locations, people joining for about three days a week in office. So, it's definitely an interesting transition and an interesting new world. [laughs] VICTORIA: Yeah. And I'm curious how you find the tech scene in Denver versus New York or if you're engaging in the community in the same way since you moved. SEAN: There definitely is some weirdness since COVID started [laughs] broadly [inaudible 42:21]. So, I moved here in 2020. But I'd been coming out here a lot before that. I helped to build an office here with Bitly. So, I was probably coming out once a quarter for a bunch of years. So, one parallel that is finally similar is, like, in both places, it is a small world. It doesn't take that long for you to be in that community, in either of those communities and start running into the same people in different places. So, that's always been [inaudible 42:42] and especially in New York. New York is a city of what? 8, 9 million people? But once you're working in New York tech for a few years and you go into some meetups, you start running into the same people, and you have one or two degrees [inaudible 42:52] to a lot of people, surprisingly quickly. [laughs] So, that's similar. But Denver probably is interesting in that it's definitely transplant-heavy. I think Denver tends to check the box for, like, it was part of why Bitly opened an office here and, to a degree, Datadog as well. I think of like, you know, if you're trying to recruit people and you previously were mostly recruiting in, like, New York or Silicon Valley; if you're based in New York, and you're trying to recruit somebody from Silicon Valley, and part of why they're looking for a new gig is they're burned out on Silicon Valley, asking them to move to New York probably isn't all that attractive. [laughs] But Denver is different enough in that in terms of kind of being a smaller city, easier access to nature, a bunch of that kind of stuff, that a lot of times we were able to attract talent that was a much more appealing prospect. [laughs] You'll see an interesting mix of industries here. One of the bigger things here is there's a very large government and DOD presence here. I remember I went to DevOps Days Rockies, I think, a few years ago. There was a Birds of a Feather session on trying to apply DevOps principles in air-gapped networks. That was a very interesting conversation. [laughs] VICTORIA: That's interesting. I would not have thought Colorado would be a big hub for federal technology. But there you go, it's everywhere. WILL: Yeah. SEAN: Denver metro, I think, is actually the largest presence of federal offices outside of the D.C. metro. VICTORIA: That's interesting. Yeah, I'm used to trying to recruit people into D.C., and so, it's definitely not the good weather, [laughs], not a good argument in my favor. So, I just wanted to give you a final chance. Anything else you'd like to promote, Sean? SEAN: Generally, not super active on social things these days, but you can find whatever I have done at seanoc.com, S-E–A-N-O-C.com for the spelling. And otherwise, if you're interested in some engineering content and hearing about some of those kind of bleeding edge challenges that I was mentioning before, I would definitely check out the Datadog engineering blog. There's lots of kind of really interesting content there on both, you know, things we've learned from incidents and interesting projects that we're working on. There's all kinds of fun stuff there. VICTORIA: That makes me think I should have asked you more questions, Sean. [laughs] No, I think it was great. Thank you so much for joining us today. I'll definitely check all that stuff out. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. WILL: And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Sean O'Connor.

SummaryIn this episode, Sean discusses the importance of designing a proper business model for B2B SaaS from the beginning. He dives into the flaws of the freemium model and highlights why a free trial is a superior alternative. With insights from founder Brian Castle, Sean emphasizes the need to avoid giving away too much for free without achieving desirable conversions and profits. For those interested in bootstrapping and maintaining control over their business, he recommends free trials as an effective strategy.Key Points Freemium models often lack a clear path to profitability and rely on a massive user base for monetization. Brian Casel's experience with freemium led him to abandon it in favor of payment and free trial options for his communication tool product. Offering everything for free without seeing conversions can be detrimental to revenue and growth. Freemium models require unlimited time and potentially unlimited funds, making them unsustainable for many businesses. The goal of freemium is to monopolize the market, but this approach is risky without additional funding. For bootstrapped businesses, free trials offer lower exposure and allow costs to be included in customer acquisition expenses. Free trials provide a fixed period or limited capacity for testing product viability and conversion rates. Quotes "With the freemium model, (the promise is) you're gonna get a wave after wave of users... but there's a huge missing piece in the middle." (Sean) "You might be stuck in a situation where you're giving a ton of everything away for free and people are not converting." (Sean) Free Email Course How to Build a Profitable AI-Powered B2B SaaS Business for Less Than $750 - https://nxtstep.io/b2bsaasConnect with Sean Subscribe to my YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/@nxtstepsean Connect with me on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/sean-boyce/ Notes generated by Podcast Show Notes  (podcastshownotes.ai)

Sean: You seem to me like you're a very competitive person in a way, and I wonder why you like this so much that 21 years later it's still the same thing that you're doing only now you're running a business rather than being the one man person, one man team? Simon: Every high performer is competitive and every competitive person wants high performance. That is the nature of entrepreneurs. They want to create something out of nothing. They want to solve problems. That's what drives us right? And that's what creates all this energy. And that's why other people want to chip in and say, Wow, I want to be on your team. I want to be on this mission. I want to contribute to this train that's running. And so the train gets usually started by this passion of an individual, and then it becomes a team. It becomes a company, it becomes something global because of this energy. And yes, there is a positive competition in it. How can we improve stuff? How can we make the world a little bit better? How can we build something more useful than what we have right now? These are all competitive moments. How can we build it better? Right? You have to have some form of drive to build a company. You remember Elon Musk said building a company is like chewing glass while somebody is throwing a brick in your face. And so there is enough headwind you wouldn't do that. You wouldn't build a company if you are not driven. After all, it's meaningful to you, because it gives you energy. After all, it gives your life meaning and direction. Awesome. - - - Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/leadershipstack Join our community and ask questions here: from.sean.si/discord Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/leadershipstack Leadership Stack Merch: https://leadershipstack.com/shop/ - - - Simon Severino Website: https://www.strategysprints.com/ LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/simonseverino Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@simonseverino/videos Twitter: https://twitter.com/simonseverino

Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Sean teaches Margaret about brewing alcohol. They talk about fermentation in general and then walk though how to make beer and cider. Guest Info Sean (he/him) can be found at https://seanvansickel.com/ Host Info Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Sean on Brewing Margaret: Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. This week we're talking about fermentation. We're talking about little things that eat things and then poop out alcohol. I actually don't really know because I'm the one who's going to be asking these questions and I record these introductions before I actually do the interview. So, I'm going to be learning more about fermentation and we're gonna be talking about alcohol, but we're also gonna be talking about all kinds of other stuff too. And I think you'll get a lot out of it. And first, we're a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchists podcasts and here's a jingle from another show on the network. La la la, la la la la [Margaret making musical melody sounds] Margaret: Okay, we're back. And so if you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns, and then I guess like a little bit about how you got into fermentation? Sean: So my name is Sean. Pronouns are he/him. Well, I actually started with, with cider and mead because I had a harder time finding commercially available cider and mead that wasn't just kind of like a novelty product or obscenely expensive, you know, imported from like Basque country or whatever. So that's, that was kind of where I got my, my kickoff on fermentation. I worked in commercial fermentation doing sour beer production as well as like conventional clean, you know, canned beer, and then actually worked in sales and distribution with beer for a while. Margaret:Okay, so this is really exciting because I've always kind of wanted to get into this. Well, I've kind of wanted to get into everything, which is the whole reason I started this podcast, so I could ask people about how to do things. But fermentation...so you can format things and it makes them different? What is fermentation? Sean: So fermentation basically is either yeast or bacteria breaking down almost always some form of sugar or carbohydrate. The main thing that is being produced by that is co2. But a nice little side effect that is often produced is alcohol, right, or lactic acid is often produced especially in the presence of bacteria, specifically in the presence of lactic acid producing bacteria. We call them you know, LAB is the abbreviation that's used. So, fermentation is happening generally-when people are referring to it--they're referring to yeast fermentation. So the most common yeast, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, right, beer yeast. It's the same. It's called beer yeast. But that's the same yeast that's used to ferment wine. It's used to ferment like a sour mash, if you're, you know, making whiskey in a legal distillation situation as opposed to you know, the other distillation situation. It is illegal to distill alcohol for home use in the US. So, yeah, you have to be very careful you don't do that. On Accident. Margaret:Yeah, we won't cover that for a while. Sean: Yeah, right. Margaret: Okay, wait, is this the same yeast as like sourdough and all of that? Sean: It's very, very close. So sourdough is--especially if you make like a if you'd like a sourdough starter capture right from the air... I have not done this. It's something I've wanted to do. I've captured wild yeast for brewing from the air but never for baking. But they are a similar blend of airborne yeast, so you'll have wild yeast. You'll have wild Saccharomyces cerevisiae as well as wild other yeasts, Brettanomyces. Yeast strains are very common in air. And then you'll also have lactic acid bacteria in the air. So these are those rod shaped bacteria that are active in the absence of oxygen. They're anaerobic bacteria. So, they will continue to acidify things, even when there is no oxygen present to like kind of fuel or catalyze that reaction in a way that regular beer yeast, or even bread yeast, baking yeast, right, won't necessarily be able to do. Margaret: I'm really not used to the idea of thinking about bacteria as a positive thing. Sean: Right. No. So they are extremely a positive thing, Lactic acid bacteria, because they drop the pH as well. And lower pH means you don't have to worry about like botulism, for example. You know, so that's definitely a benefit. Most spoilage...So one number I'm going to be saying probably a few times is 4.2. 4.2 is like the pH level, below which you have a greater degree of protection because of the acidity, right. Margaret: Okay. Cause botulism doesn't like hanging out in there? Sean: Botulism is...I'm not 100% sure if it's the pH, the alcohol, or both. But botulism does not like low pH, nor does it like high ABV. So these are, these are both good ways of protecting yourself from that. Margaret: So it's that kind of...so fermentation probably comes originally, basically...Well, probably by accident. But originally probably comes from people just basically desperately trying to figure out how to make sure food doesn't go bad. And this is and fermentation is like, one of the many ways that humans have developed to keep food from going bad? Is that a? Sean: My theory is that's why fermentation stuck around. I think it showed up eventually because human... ancient, you know, human beings, proto humans even, you know, proto hominids realized they could get fucked up with it. Margaret:Yeah. That's fair. Sean: I think that's the key point. Like human nature hasn't changed that much. That will always be the driving influence on novelty, I think. Margaret: So, what are some of the things--I'm going to ask you about some of the specifics about how to do this a little bit--but what are some of the things that you can ferment? I know, you can make sauerkraut and you can make pickles? Nope, that's not fermentation. Sean: No, lacto fermented pickles, absolutely. That's frementation. Margaret: Oh, yeah. No, I totally knew that. That's definitely why I said it. Sean: Not like quick pickling with vinegar in the fridge. That's not an active fermentation process. And I do that too, like quick pickled red onions are like...those go well on everything. But no, like actual, like long term pickling. Hot sauces are a big one. You know, I did a batch of...I grew a bunch of jalapeno peppers. And then I went to like a restaurant supply type grocery store and they had like three or four pound bags of jalapenos for like, you know, they were starting to go off, right, I got them for like, under $1. So I fermented about 40 pounds of jalapenos in a five gallon bucket. And you just make a make of salt brine. Right. Like you can you can look up the levels. I think I did a 3.5% or 4%. saline brine in there. Margaret: I'll ask you the more specifics about how to do it in a bit. Sean: But yeah, so peppers you can do. You can do any kind of...anything that has an naturally occurring sugar usually can be fermented and emits....And when you have high levels of naturally occurring sugar, like the classic example is grapes, you usually are, you know, suspending that sugar and solution, water. Right. And you're making a beverage. Like that's the most classic example. That's, you know, wine, that's beer, that's, you know, fruit wines. You know, there's a lot of rural cultures throughout the world. There's, you know, non-grape wines, right, it's very common mead is another one, right, and probably the oldest. You know, we talked about the, you know, anthropological aspects of fermentation earlier. And, yeah, that's almost certainly we've, you know, a lot of evidence suggests mead, Margaret: Okay. So, when you ferment stuff, how long? What kind of shelf life are you able to get on something like hot sauce or sauerkraut or pickles and things like that? The like food stuff. Sean: Yeah. So you've definitely there are two dates at play here, which is the this is going to, you know, this still tastes really good and this is still a safe source of macronutrients and, you know, and things like that. I've had no decline in flavor with fermented hot sauce. And I usually package the fermented hot sauce in beer bottles with like a beer cap over the top or in a, like, sometimes mason jars as well. But in that packaging, I've not really seen any kind of degradation over like a two year time period, as far as flavor is concerned. It's probably foodsafe not indefinitely but probably at least 10 years. But it is going to depend on your process. It's going to depend on how much oxygen is introduced at packaging It's going to depend on the amount of salt that you have, you know, because salt is usually part of, you know, fermented food preservation and salt is a preservative. So, you know, there's going to be a lot of little factors that are going to affect that aspect of that. Margaret: Okay, but if you if you do it right, you can probably make bottles of stuff and leave them in your basement for like 10 years if you need to? Sean: Yeah, absolutely. Margaret: Fuck yeah. Sean: And that applies to especially lactic acid bacteria fermented alcohol. You know, whether that's like a French or Basque style cider or a sour beer. Those things we're talking, you know, probably a 20 year lifespan. Margaret: Oh, interesting. Okay, as compared to so that's the bacterially fermented? Sean: So the food is bacterially fermented as well. Margaret: But I mean, as compared to regular beer, right? Sean:Yeah. Yeah. Margaret How long does regular beer last? Sean Very high alcohol beer can last just as long because alcohol is a preservative just like salt, you know, the effects that some of these bacteria create. Bacteria and wild yeast like Brettanomyces is oxygen scavenging, right. So when you when it referments, if you re-...it's called bottle conditioning, right, it's where you add a small amount of fermentable sugar to a bottle and then cap it and then it referments in the bottle, you get a tiny layer a yeast at the bottom and it carbonates in the bottle. It's not done as often professionally because it produces pretty inconsistent results. But it is going to increase the lifespan of your beverage exponentially because as part of that like reproductive cycle, oxygen is scavenged and where there's less oxygen there's less spoilage. Margaret: So it's like putting the little oxygen absorber in with your like Mylar bag food only it's... Sean: Except it actually works. Yeah. [Laughing] It's far more effective because it literally is pulling every, almost every last, you know, unit of oxygen out of there and using it to fuel, you know, its own cellular reproduction. So it's not just being like absorbed and held--as much as it can be absorbed and held inert--it's like being used. Margaret: That's cool. Alright, so let's say I want to ferment because I kind of do. Let's start with...I think probably the average listener is probably thinking about how they're going to make beer or wine or things like that. Sean: Ciders probably the easiest. Margaret: Okay, so yeah, I want to make cider. What what do I do? Like what what do I need? How do I get started? Sean: You are in like actual apple country. If I understand correctly. So you have some options that most people don't. Where I am like getting getting really quality fresh pressed apple juice, apple cider, unfermented, right, is is a little bit of a challenge. But the easiest way to do it is to just go to a grocery store, you know, any place where you can get like the half gallon or gallon sized jugs of apple juice. You know, get them when they're on sale, get them in bulk. Use frozen apple juice concentrate if you want. It doesn't really matter. You are going to put that in a five gallon bucket, HDPE, high density polyethylene, plastic, right. It's a food-safe bucket. But like in food service, you see, you see these buckets used for pickles, you see them use for frosting at you know bakeries and things like that. If you want to do some dumpster diving, you can find yourself some of these real easy or if you just have a you know, a friend or member of your community that's, you know, involved or, you know, is working in food service they can probably hook you up with these as well. Worst case scenario, you.... Margaret: I'm looking it up, it's number two on the bottom of a? Like, plastic usually has a recycling symbol. Is it number two? Sean: HDPE? Margaret:Yeah. Sean: I don't remember if that's denoted with a number two, but it's HDPE plastic. Margaret: I just looked it up. Sean:Yeah. And it'll usually be specified as food grade or, you know, if it was used to hold food in the sense of the, you know, recycling and reusing from, you know, food service and like commercial kitchens and things like that, obviously, you know, you're taken care of in that respect. Margaret: I'm trying to look up to see whether like the Lowe's buckets are HDPE or not. Sean: There's two different types. Lowe's did have food grade ones. But the like, kind of universal blue bucket one, I believe it is HDPE but it is not certified food grade. So there might be contaminants in there. So, you would be maybe rolling the dice on that one a little bit. In a survival type situation or something like that, I think that would be fine. But, if you have other options, you know, maybe err on the side of caution. Margaret: Okay, that's good to know. I have a lot of these buckets for a lot of different purposes. Sean: Me too. Yeah. They get a lot of use in the garden. Margaret:Yeah, exactly. Now I'm like oh, are they not food safe. Should I not be growing tomatoes in them? And then I'm like, this is probably over thinking it. Sean: Depending you know, some something that like roots are touching not necessarily that food are touching versus something that you have in acidic and micro biologically active thing churning around that you are then going to drink in large quantities, like you know... Margaret: Okay. No, okay, fair enough. And this has been an aside Okay, so I've gone and gotten some apple juice, or if I'm really lucky I press some apples. And I've got a five gallon bucket and I fill the bucket with apple juice I assume? Sean: So, about four gallons of apple juice. Yeah, you gotta leave yourself some head space because you are going to, you know, have some activity in motion with the yeast. Then you're going to be pitching in yeast. For apple juice for cider you can use champagne yeast, right? That's, a very, very common one. It is a like a specialty product that you need to order online or get from like a homebrew store or a brewing supply store, something like that. You can use just regular like baking yeast, like breadmaker's yeast like Fleischmanns or whatever. It will work. You will get a few like...you're more likely to develop some off flavors, maybe some sulfur type, aromas. Things like that. And then you also might have a less healthy fermentation. So the fermentation might take longer and your final gravity right, the amount of residual sugar left by the fermentation will be higher and the amount of alcohol produced will be a little bit lower. Okay, so that's that's using like bread or baking yeast. If you're using a champagne yeast, you know, wine yeast, beer yeast even you are going to get a faster and much more complete fermentation. Less likely that contamination, if there is any present, will will take hold. Right? Margaret: Okay, what about um, like, let's say the supply chains are all fucked, right and I can't go get yeast. My two questions is one...okay well three questions. Can I use wild yeast? Second question, when you've already made this stuff, can you like reuse pieces of it as the yeast? Like in the same way as you like can with like sourdough or something? And then third question is, can you use a sourdough starter? That one so I'm expecting no. Sean: The answer to all of those is yes, actually. Margaret: Oh, interesting. Sean: And I'll go through one at a time. So your first, if there are supply chain issues, you don't have, or you just in general you don't have access, or you don't want to Margaret: Or you're in a jail cell and making it in the toilet or whatever. Sean: Yeah, right. that's gonna that's gonna have its own very special considerations. But yeah, you can absolutely use wild capture yeast. So the...what I would do with with the equipment that I have, I would get a cake pan and I would put...I would fill it maybe between a quarter inch and a half an inch high full of fermentable liquid, in this case apple juice. I put it outside, ideally on a spring or a fall day when there's no danger of a hard frost, right, either before or after, depending on which shoulder season you're in. But fairly close to that date is when you're going to get the best results. You're going to want to have some kind of a mesh over the top, maybe like a window screen or door screen, you know, screen door type mesh. Margaret: Keep bugs out? Sean: Yep, exactly. Keep bugs out. You want the microscopic bugs not the ones that we can see flying around in there, you know? So leave that out overnight on a cool night. If you have fruit trees, especially vines, any grape vines, anything like that, right under there is ideal. If you don't, just anywhere where there is some, you know, greenery growing. In the wild and you kind of have--not in the wild but you know, outside--in a non sterile, you know, non-contained environment, you're gonna have less luck trying to do this inside or, you know, in like a warehouse building or something like that. Yeah, this is actually, once you have that, you know, you've had it left overnight, decant it into maybe a mason jar or something like that with an airlock. I use like an Erlenmeyer flask just because I have them for other fermentation stuff. And you can with an Erlenmeyer flask, you can drop a magnetic bar in there, put it on a stir plate, and you know, knock the whole process out, you know, 10 times as fast. Obviously not necessary. But, it's a fun little shortcut if you want to, you know, drop $40 or $50 on a stir plate. Margaret: Is that just like a basically like, a magnet? Inside the flask that moves because of a magnet on the plate? Sean: Yep, that's it. Exactly. Margaret: That's Brilliant. Sean: Yeah, so you have like a little bar magnet. It's like coated in like a food safe plastic, right, so it's not gonna scratch anything up. And then you just drop that in, you turn on the plate, it usually has a like potentiometer, like little knob that you can control the speed on. Sometimes if you get the speed up too far, it will throw the magnet and then you've got to recenter it and get it all there. But that's great for, you know, doing your own yeast and bacteria captures. It speeds that up. Margaret: So it's speeding it up because you need to stir it. To go back to the I've just done this without a flask. I've put it in a mason jar. Sean: Yeah, just give it a swirl a couple times a day, give it a couple swirls. It is going to be, you know, working the same way just on a slower timeline. Margaret: And this is a sealed jar? Sean: Sealed, but with an airlock because again, anytime you have fermentation you have CO2 production, it you don't have an air lock, you've just made an improvised explosive device sitting on your kitchen counter. So you don't want that Margaret: Right. Usually not. Okay. So that's the little thing that you see sticking out of carboys where it's a little glass thing with some water in it. The thing goes through where the air bubbles go. Sean: Yeah, it's usually plastic. The most common ones are, it's like an S bend, right? The same kind of thing that you've seen, like sink and toilet plumbing to keep the stinky gas away. The function works the same way that gas can pass through in one direction. Margaret: So basically, you've captured some wild yeast and you've put it in a mason jar with an airlock and then it it...you're feeding it...it feeds off of that for a while and that's how you get your starter? Is that? Sean: Yeah, so that is your yeast. That is your inoculant, your starter? Yeah, but you do need to do a couple things to confirm that that is--because you know, wild captured isn't going to work every single time perfectly. It's why we've you know... Margaret: Why you can go buy champange yeast at a store. Sean: Yeah, everyone uses that. So what you need to do is you need to confirm that the pH is below 4.2. Okay, all right. So... Margaret: It's that magic number. Sean: Yeah, that's the big number for...I think that's what Douglas Adams was talking about, actually, he just probably pulled the decimal point. But no, so you need to make sure it's below 4.2 ph. You can do this with pH testing strips. Litmus paper. You can just, you know, put a drop of it on there and you know, see what color it is. I would advise against using the full pH range like the 0 to 14 ones just because since it is such a wide range, it can be kind of like "Is that greenish brown or is that brownish green?" like that's that's a whole point on the pH scale. The pH scale is logarithmic. So the difference between brownish green and greenish brown is a factor of 10. So like, you know, have a more narrow range. Litmus paper is ideal or a pH meter. They've gotten a lot better in the last five or ten years and a lot cheaper, like we're talking under $20. So those are really...if you're going to be doing fermentation, I would recommend using both just in case there's like a, you know, a calibration error or anything like that. It's just a good way to confirm. Margaret: Okay. Alright, so you've got to now, you know, the pH is under 4.2. What else are we checking? Sean: Yeah, we're also going to just use our olfactory sense. So get your nose in there. And if it smells like rotten eggs and sewage like toss that shit out. There are other bacteria at play that we that we don't want playing in our in our happy little colony here. So that needs to go and instead just, you know, do another capture. You want like fruity aromas, aromas that maybe have some spice or piquancy to them are fine. Like alcohol aromas are really good too, you know, things like that. These are all indicating fermentation production of, you know, of alcohol production of CO2 as well. You want to see that. That's another really good indicator is that and that's why I like those S-bend airlocks as opposed to they also make like a three piece one that just kind of percolates through. The S-bend one is really nice because you can see the CO2 coming through, right, you can see it coming through in bubbles. So you have a visual and audible indicator, right? Like you can hear that there are, you know, 10 or 15 bubbles coming through a minute, right. So you know that there is cellular reproduction happening and fermentation happening. Margaret: This whole thing...I recently recorded an episode about yeast, about sourdough, this is why I keep referencing sourdough. Yeah. And the whole thing is like hard for me to believe is real. Once I start doing it, I'll believe it but wild capture...Like sure the invisible alcohol makers in the sky are just going to turn it...like of course they are. Sean: It feels like some like biohacking, like bio-punk speculative fiction. Yeah. Like it totally does. Margaret:Yeah. But I love...I mean, when I start doing this, I'm gonna go out and buy yeast, right. But I'm much more interested in hobbies that I know that like, I know how I will do without buying chemicals if I have to, you know? Okay, so wild capture and then you said that you can also use... Sean: You can inoculate with stuff that you've already made. Margaret: Yeah. Sean: I think your second question, right. So the example I'll use for this is sour beer, right? I can go out and pick up a bottle of sour beer. I can drink the sour beer and leave just the dregs at bottom. I can swirl that up and I can pitch that into a fermenter and I've just inoculated it. That's it. Margaret: And so it can't be pasteurized, right? Sean: No, no, you don't want to pasteurize. But again, remember, we were talking about bottle conditioning, right. It's a bottle conditioned to beer. So, because it has sugar added to the bottle and it's naturally re fermented in the bottle, you know, built up co2 and nice, pleasant effervescent bubbles in the bottle that means that it is it is fully bioactive. That's great, too, because that...much higher levels of like vitamin B and things like that, as well as a full culture of yeast and bacteria, which are really good for your gut biome, which is also important. So that's why I'm a big fan. Pasteurization definitely helps for like safe transportation and breweries not getting sued when their bottles explode and leave glass in people's hands and things like that. Margaret: And so for anyone listening, pasteurization is where you treat it so that everything's dead inside, right? Sean: With heat. Margaret: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sean: Yeah, exactly. They slowly increase the pressure in increments that you don't notice until you find that everything is completely dead. Margaret:Yeah. Okay. Cool. And safe for capitalism. Sean: And safe for capitalism. Absolutely. Yep. [laughing] Margaret: Cool. All right. So once we've domesticize, the bottles of beer...okay, anyway. Sean: Yeah, so we want to avoid pasteurization unless absolutely necessary because then the product is less healthy for us and it's less useful for us in the future. We can't use it to inoculate other other batches. If I were going to be doing that, I would--I mean, again, going back to that stir plate, I'm talking about an ideal situation--I would add some of that to unfermented beer or cider on the stir plate and let that go because that's going to get my yeast and bacteria cell count up very, very high. That's going to ensure the fermentation and acidification start quick and finish strong. Margaret: Okay. And so is there any like...Is it just a taste difference if you were to like....if I were to go get sour beer and then dump it, you know, do everything you just said, and then dump it in as my starter for some cider, would it just be like weird? Or would it be fine? Or like. Like mixing flavors and mediums or whatever it would be called? Sean: Oh, so like fermentables. Like a mix of apples and malt for example. Margaret: Well, so it's like if I'm using...if the yeast I have access to is I drank a sour beer and I have what's left, right. But what I have access to to ferment is apple juice. Can I use that to ferment the apple juice? Sean: Absolutely. Margaret: And will it taste really wild and different? Or is it just kind of yeast is yeast? Sean: Not especially. Sour beers is yeast and bacteria. So you have yeast and bacteria at play. Margaret: Can I make make sour cider? Sean: Yeah. Because there's already both malic acid and lactic acid naturally present in apple juice, using lactic acid producing bacteria doesn't make it seem as sour as like sour beer, right? Because it's already, there's already these natural acids at play. In beer, like the pH of non-sour beer, it's lower than like water, but it's not low enough that our brains register as sour. So, when you apply those bacteria to a, you know, fermented malt liquid, it's such a huge gulf between non-sour bees and sour beer. Non-sour cider and sour cider are kind of adjacent more. There is one other little factor though, that ties into what you brought up, which is that yeast and bacteria over time are going to adapt to perform ideally in the fermentable that they have reproduced in. So, if you are reusing like a culture, and I'm going to use the word culture rather than yeast or bacteria because it's almost always a combination of bacteria and multiple yeast, right? If your culture has optimized itself to reproduce and to, you know, churn through the fermentables in beer, right, you have a lot of longer chain carbohydrates in beer than you do in fruit juice whether that's apple or grape, right? So they're going to evolve to deal with those and, you know, when you switch from one to the other, your first fermentation might be a little bit sluggish. Still perfectly viable. Margaret: So, okay, so to go back to where we're at in the stage. I really actually like...I think probably most of this episode will be just literally us walking through the steps of making some cider, but we're gonna learn so much along the way. I'm really excited about it. Sean: I'm here for it. I'm here for it. Margaret: Yeah. So okay, so you've gotten your apple juice, you've gotten your starter yeast. Ideally, you went and got champagne yeast, but maybe it's the end of the world and you wild captured or maybe you just don't want to do that. My plan is to start the easy way and then try the hard way later. Sean: Yep. Good. It's good to....You're more likely to keep going if your first endeavor is successful. Margaret: If I succeed. Yeah, that's my theory. Okay, now I've got my five gallon bucket. I've added yeast. I'm closing it and putting a little S... Sean: Airlock. And it doesn't...again going back, like if you don't have access to a homebrew store or the internet or whatever and you can't get an airlock, like you're not completely screwed here. All you need is a piece of hose or tubing in a cork or bung or something like that and stick the other end in liquid, you know. Maybe water with a with a few drops of bleach in it, sanitizing solution, vinegar, alcohol, whatever. Right? Because then it's just you know, the CO2 is blowing out of that tube and just bubbling out of thing. Like an airlock is cleaner, takes up less space, and is more optimized, but yeah, improvisation works fine. Margaret: Okay. How long am I leaving this? Does it have to be in a cool dark place? Like can I do this on the... Sean: You don't want direct sunlight. Alright, so you don't want direct sunlight and you don't want light from you know, you don't want Margaret: Grow lights, or UV, or whatever. Sean: Yeah, grow light or UV or anything like that. If you just got like, you know, ambient room light hitting hitting it, especially if it's in a bucket, you're probably okay. Beer is more of a concern because beer has hops, and hops are photosensitive, and your beer will taste like Heineken at a summer picnic, you'll get that like kind of skunky thing that you get in green glass bottles. Margaret: Yeah. Which I weirdly, I have positive associations with just from... Sean: A lot of people do. A lot of people do. It's like...What you like isn't isn't wrong. Like, it is what it is. It's an unfavorable characteristic to some people, but, you know, there's a lot of traditional German beers that are described as having a sulfur character. And it's like, I don't like that though, but it's correct. Margaret: I drink a lot of Grolsch. And like, yeah, yeah, I drank a lot of green-bottled Grolsch when I lived in the Netherlands. And it was not...Yep. I'm not trying to relive my cheap beer phase. But like, Grolsch was a good middle of the road, cheap beer, you know. Sean: I like the bottles because they're almost infinitely reusable. You've got to replace those little plastic... Grolsch bottles are the ones that have that swing top with a little cage that clicks down. So those are...I still have a few of them that I use that I have been reusing for almost a decade now. Margaret: That's amazing. Okay, now so we've got the bucket, you're keeping it out of the sun because you don't want Heineken and especially with hops. Margaret: Oh, I would assume gravity is about alcohol. Sean: It's less of an issue with with cider. But you're going to, depending on how finicky you want to be, you can test the original gravity, right? Original gravity is the original measurement of the liquid's specific gravity, basically how much sugar is in solution? Sean: No, gravity is sugar in solution. Margaret: So that's how you find out your relative...Go ahead, please explain it. Sean: Yeah, you look at how much sugar you started with and how much sugar you ended up with and subtract the difference. Yeah, because yeah, yeah, no, it's...there's a couple ways of measuring original gravity. Margaret: Yeah, how do you do that? Sean: The easiest, cheapest, and most like durable over like a long term survival situation is going to be the use of a hydrometer. So that is like a little glass. It almost looks like an old school mercury thermometer with a bunch of weights on one end and like a glass bubble. And that floats in solution. You can float it in like a little like a tall cylinder so you don't waste very much alcohol. You can also float it directly in the bucket. Right? And it's got little lines. It'll tell you like 1.050 Like, that's like the standard standard gravity for most beer and cider. Right? It's around, you know, 1.050 and that when it's fermented fully... Margaret: Is it measuring the buoyancy of the water? Sean: Basically, yeah. Margaret: Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah, sorry, please continue. Sean: So that is how a hydrometer works. And then you'll measure it again. If you're doing it in a bucket, you don't need a cylinder, you just need to sanitize that hydrometer and then stick it in, measure the original gravity, the gravity reading before you add yeast, and then after--in the case of cider, I would say, you know, three or four weeks I would start checking it again. The other really nice thing about a hydrometer is you can hold off on packaging until you get consistent readings, right? So if you check your...you know, you've let it ferment for three weeks. You check your gravity on Monday and then you write it down, you know: 1.015. Then you check it on Wednesday: 1.014. Okay, well, maybe check it again on Friday: 1.013. No, it's still going down. Like we need to, we need to let this continue to ferment. Margaret: Okay, so you're basically letting it eat as much sugar as it can. Sean: Yeah, yeah, it'll...it's got its own limit. It's got its own limit. And once there are no more digestible, you know, saccharides then you're safe to package. If you package while the yeast is still actively fermenting, you've got two problems. One of them is the.... Margaret: Exploding bottles. Sean: You know, exploding bottles, as mentioned earlier. The other is that, you know, our cultures are generally pretty considerate in that they clean up after themselves, right? They metabolize the most easily available sugars first and then there are some compounds leftover. A lot of them have unpleasant, you know, tastes or aromas, maybe like a really bitter, pithy, green apple thing. Sulfur is very common, right. But these compounds, the yeast is going to turn to when it runs...and bacteria are going to turn to when they run out of very, you know, junk food, basically. Very easily digestible monosaccharides. Margaret: Is there something called young beer where it hasn't eaten at all? Am I completely wrong? I just have this in my head somewhere. Sean: Like it's like a historical thing, right? Like in English brewing maybe? Margaret: I don't know. Some concept where people intentionally drink beer that still has the sugar or something? [Sounding unsure] I'm probably wrong. Sean: No, semi-fermented beer is very much a thing. And I know in some brewing traditions, I think there's some in Africa that use like cassava and things like that where you're drinking it like 12 hours into the fermentation and it's like kind of like a communal thing. Like, you know, people, you know, make a big batch and everybody drinks it at once so that you know, you can get it right when it's super fresh. Tepachi as well, like the fermented pineapple drink in South America, it's kind of a similar thing. There's the pineapple and then there's brown sugar added as well and you want to start drinking it when about half of the sugar is fermented so it's still really sweet. It's almost like a semi-alcoholic, like bucha tiki drink sort of thing. Margaret: Okay. Before we get to packaging, my other question is, is beer just white sugar? Is that the thing that's added? Like, what is the yeast? What is it? What is the...or is it eating the carbohydrates instead of the sugar? Sean: The carbohydrates. Beer uses beer uses malted barley. So malting is a process by which you take you take your grains of barley, you get it slightly damp and you just keep turning it over. And the kernels will like begin to germinate. But before they like crack open and you get like a little shoot or something like that, the process of germination, basically you get a lot of these very difficult to digest carbohydrates converted into simple carbohydrates so that the emerging plant has a rapid source of fuel. Kind of similar to an egg in the survival strategy, sort of. Yeah, right. Once it once it's malted, right, once that has has taken place, they kiln it, right. So, they hit it with heat. And that kills the sprouting grain. So, it's not like the malt is going to like mold or, you know, go to seed or, you know, start growing or anything like that. That would be inconvenient. You want this stuff to be able to stay shelf stable for a couple years. So, they treat it with heat, right. And there are there are all kinds of ways of doing it. It is a very involved process. I have never malted my own grains. I've thought about doing it, but it's like very labor intensive and really only economical at pretty large scale. Margaret: Is this why people didn't fuck with beer until after they were fucking with cider and meat and all that shit? Sean: I think so. But, the first beers were actually made from bread not malt. So. Margaret: Because it's simple? Sean: Exactly. Same process, right? It's easier to make bread than it is to commercially, you know, kiln, you know, bags and bags of barley. And also, you know, bread has its own shelf life. So, if you're getting towards the end of it.... Margaret: Oh, yeah, then you turn it into booze. Sean: Exactly. And that's a thing in Russia too. Kvass, K-V-A-S-S, it's a it's made with, like rye, rye bread. And it's usually around 2% or 3% alcohol, but it's literally like a thing that you know, people... Margaret: I love low-alcohol beer. Sean: Yeah, me too. Oh, man. Like a 2.5% alcohol pale ale. Yeah, just a little bit of hops. That is like my sweet spot. Margaret: Yeah, absolutely. Because it's like, oh, I want to drink a beer, but I don't want to get drunk all the time. Like, you know, it's like I love a beer on the nice afternoon, but I hate the after afternoon nap that you could get stuck taking if you drink an 8% beear. Like what the fuck. Sean: Yeah, no, it just like the day's plans have all of a sudden have changed. Margaret: Okay, because the reason I asked about the sugar thing is the first time I ever helped someone ferment. They made dandelion wine. And ever since then I've been like this is all bullshit because dandelion wine--at least as this person made it--I was like, this is just cane sugar wine. It's just cane sugar wine with some dandelion flavor. And I was like really upset by this. Because I--and maybe this is bullshit--but it's like, which of these alcohols are mostly just cane sugar? And which ones can you actually ferment? Sean: Dandelion wine for sure is because there's virtually no fermentable sugars in dandelion, but there are a lot of very strong botanical flavors. Like dandelion wine...like the dandelions are more equivalent to like hops in beer than they are to malt in beer. Margaret: Because the hops are flavor? Sean: Yeah, they're adding they're adding flavor. They're adding aroma. They're adding like all of these botanical, you know, aspects to it, but they are not the source of the alcohol. They are not the source of the sugar or anything like that. Margaret: Okay, can you make dandelion wine with like, with actual...I mean, I know cane sugar does come from a plant, but it's still...I feel betrayed. Sean: Yeah. You could make dandelion...you could add dandelions to cider. I haven't done it but I've noticed people doing it. You can use, you know, any kind of like a reconstituted fruit juice and do like a fruit type wine. I think the reason...and I think the one of the more interesting ways of doing the dandelion wine thing is doing a dandelion mead. I've had a few of those that are really good. Margaret: Oh, that sounds nice. That sounds very like cycle of life, you know, like, honey and the flowers. Sean: It's a lot of closed loops, right? No, I think the reason that cane sugar became a convention for that is, you know, economic. Like cane sugar was fairly cheap. It was the cheapest, you know, fermentable available to rural people in the Dust Bowl era. Margaret: That makes sense. Yeah. Sean: I mean, artificially so, right. Yeah. I think that's where that came from. Margaret: Okay, so you mentioned doing all this in a bucket. I still want to get to the putting it in the bottles and stuff. But, is there an advantage...Like, do...Should I get a carboy if I have the money to spend. I'm under the impression that a carboy are a big glass bottle that looks like one of those five gallon jugs you put in your office cooler, only it's for making alcohol. Is that better? Sean: That's pretty much it. I don't...I don't like carboys. I've used them. I use them for bulk aging of sour beer. I use them for primary fermentation of clean beer and cider. I got rid of all of mine. Margaret: So you use buckets and stuff? Sean: I use buckets or I use converted kegs or converted stainless steel kettles if I'm doing a larger batch. It's just I have a like...for like all the sour beer I have like a 15 and a half gallon stainless steel kettle with a like a bulkhead. Like a like a valve on the bottom. And that allows me to like do pass throughs. So I keep that as like my acidifying chamber. It's called a Solera. I actually wrote a Kindle digital single about like building and maintaining these. It's almost exclusively useful for sour beer, you know, bacterially fermented cider or vinegar making. But, if you're doing any of that kind of thing, especially, you know, small scale, but you know, wanting to provide for a bunch of people like a club or community or anything like that, it's really the most efficient way to do it. Margaret: Why don't you like carboys? Sean: I don't like glass. I don't like glass because there's just a real risk of injury. When...if you've got a seven gallon carboy full of liquid, we're talking 70 or 80 pounds in a glass bottle. Margaret: Yeah, okay. I see where you're going. Sean: Things can go Bad real quick. When I use them, I had some that fit in milk crates so I could just pick up the milk crates. That helped out a lot. They also make, they call them I think just carboys straps, it's like a like a four piece harness with handles that you can use. But when I when I've seen them break, it's almost always when someone's setting them down, right? Anytime you're setting down something heavy, you know, unless you're very strong and have a great deal of control, right, that last little bit you can sometimes kind of crack it down. And again, we're talking 70 or 80 pounds in a glass bottle. And you don't have to crack it down very hard for the whole bottom to go out and that's a mess. Margaret: Yeah. Because then you got blood in your beer. And that's just... Sean: Yeah, right. It gets very Klingon on very quickly. And it's Yeah. But the other aspect I don't like is they're completely light permeable too, right cause they're just clear glass. Margaret: Yeah. That always seemed weird. You have to keep them in a closet with a towel on them or whatever. Sean: Yeah, yeah. It's just I think, again, it was...so homebrewing only became legal in the United States under Jimmy Carter. Right. It had been illegal from prohibition to Jimmy Carter. Yeah. Margaret: Holy shit. Yeah. Does that mean we'll eventually get home moonshining? I can't wait. Sean: I feel like if we were going to get it, it would have happened already. And I don't think the trends politically are towards individual deregulation anytime soon for that kind of thing. But you know, it is legal to make you know, like fuel alcohol. Some people make fuel alcohol and then lose it in barrels and things like that. Margaret: Yeah, it's not worth it for me. I always figure I shouldn't do anything that brings the Eye of Sauron anywhere near me. So I'm just not gonna make it. Sean: Oh totally. And, there have always been people who are going to do it, you know, illegally, but it's not worth the hassle. It can be like...I know we've been talking about fermentation on the side of, you know, consumption and food and beverage and all that, but I do know, people who have stills that use them to produce like fuel alcohol, you know, for backpacking and things like that. And that is valid. And you can, you can, you can produce, you know, fuel alcohol very cheaply, if that's the thing that you use for, you know, kind of off grid type stuff that can really be a useful a useful toolkit, but kind of outside of what we're talking about today. Margaret: Yeah, I'll have you on...have you or someone else on at some point for that. Yeah. Okay. So you've made your alcohol, this was all simpler than I thought. So now you have a bucket full of alcohol, and you don't want to just pass out straws. What do you do? Sean: Yeah, passing out straws is an option, but you need to, you know, make sure there are enough people in your in your group to get through five gallons all at once, I guess. No, so you're the two main options available are bottling and kegging. Right? So bottling is usually, you know, when we're talking about it as an alternative to kegging, rather than, you know, bottling from a keg, which is a totally different thing. If we're going to bottle it, we're probably going to bottle conditioned it. So, we're going to add a small amount of sugar back. What's that? Margaret: But why? Sean: Bottle condition? Margaret Yeah. Sean Bottle condition for the oxygen scavenging effects of Brettanomyces yeast. Margaret To make it as safe as possible. because we don't have commercial... Sean And shelf stable as possible. Margaret Right? Okay. If we had like a big commercial thing then there would be a way of bottling it where no air gets in, but because we're doing a DIY some air will get in so that's why we want to bottle condition to clean up our mess? Sean Well, even in commercial systems you are going to have oxygen ingress, but it's going to be significantly less than than what you have at home. Okay. So yeah, that's going to help with that. So we got longer shelf life both for like a quality flavor product and a, you know, safe to consume product. Both of those are extended. That also adds carbonation, which a lot of people really enjoy, you know, having the nice fizzy bubbles. Margaret Oh, it's flat until this point? Sean Yeah, yeah. Totally flat. Because it's only going to pressurize in a sealed environment. It's only going to carbonate in a sealed environment. Margaret No, that makes sense. Sean You got to blow off tube. So all your co2 is, is going away. Margaret Does that mean people don't bottle condition their wine because otherwise you make champagne? Sean You wouldn't want to add sugar to wine that you are bottling unless you are trying to make sparkling wine. But of course it wouldn't be champagne unless it came from Champagne, France. Margaret I'm glad we have the same bullshit cultural reference. 90s...whatever. Sean Oh, man. That one is, like... Margaret I love Wayne's World. Sean ...hilarious too just in their own right. Margaret Okay, so, okay, so, back to our cider. We're bottling it. Oh, but that actually...cider is not normally carbonated. Is DIY Are you kind of stuck? Does bottle conditioning always carbonate it? Sean You can, if you want if you want still cider, just don't add sugar. Margaret How are you bottle conditioning then? Sean It's just not bottle conditioning, it's just bottled. It still has yeast in there, it still has all of that in there because you haven't pasteurized it, right? So, it still has those those health effects. Shelf life might be a little bit lower. I haven't seen any significant studies on comparing, you know, home produced still versus, you know, carbonated, you know, via bottle conditioning insider. But I would like to. Like that would be really...that'd be some really useful data if somebody wants to get on that. But you still are probably going to have a good few years of preservation. And again, the higher the alcohol you get the longer it's going to be shelf stable, right? You have fortified your cider with say brown sugar, right? That's a very common one that people will do. You add brown sugar and maybe some cinnamon or vanilla, right, especially for kind of like a winter drink. You can very easily make a cider that's 11% or 12% alcohol and ferment almost as quickly and that is going to stick around just fine. And it tastes really good. Margaret You know I want this. I don't even drink very much. But yeah, this is making me...I'm on...like, I barely drink anymore, but I'm like, I just want to make this stuff. Sean It is a lot of fun. And I've always really gravitated towards like the kind of like sensory aspects of beverage. Yeah, like, just the, I don't know, I love a head change. Don't get me wrong. Yeah. You know, there's a reason that humans, that we've been covergently evolving with alcohol for as many millennia as we have. But there are flavors that only really come out through, like for fermentation, specifically through lactic acid fermentation, and I'm talking flavors in beverages and food. You can get you get these, you know, different compounds from all different aspects of the process that you just can't get anywhere else. Margaret Okay, but we're, we're coming up towards an hour and I want to get to the point where my cider is in bottles. Sean Where we have drinkable alcohol? Margaret How do I get it? How do I get it into the bottles? So am I like siphoning it like you're stealing alcohol? Like when you're stealing gas? Sean Yeah, you can people do that. But they also make what's called an auto siphon, which is just like a little racking cane kind of arm that you just put the tubing on. And that like, let's it starts the siphon for you. It automatically starts to siphon for you. So you don't get your bacterial mouth on tubing. Margaret Yeah, that makes sense. Sean Yeah, you know, in a survival situation, you know, switch with some vodka and do it and call it good, but in an ideal situation, a sanitized, racking cane is ideal. Even more ideal, I think a lot of people do especially with cider because it doesn't produce nearly as much yeast sediment, just ferment in a bucket that has a little valve or bulkhead on it. Margaret Oh, down at the bottom? Sean Yep. All you got to do is take your bucket, sit it up on your counter, you add in you know a little bit of sugar. It's usually around like four ounces of sugar, you dissolve it in boiling water and then add the sugar solution. Stir it gently. And then you just use that valve to fill the bottles. And then you use a bottle cap or you can either use like a bench capper that like sits on a bench and has like a little lever arm like this. That's a lot more ergonomic. They also have these they call them wing cappers. There's two handles and you just kind of set it on top of the cap and then you know, push down. I have definitely broken bottlenecks with the wing cappers before. Yeah, not broken any with a bench capper. So I would definitely recommend a bench capper. Margaret Or, drink Grolsch. Sean Yeah, drink Grolsch. Yeah. And any kind of you can, you can save those. It's not just Grolsch bottles, but those are probably the most common ones. They have like a little swing cap cage, a little ceramic cap with a rubber grommet. You have some kind of siliconized grommet. Yeah. And that just sits there and then clicks it in place. And yeah, those sometimes you have to replace the little rubber part after every six or eight uses of the bottle. But yeah, that's a hell of a lot better than replacing the whole thing. Okay, once you have bottled, though, you are going to need to leave them alone for two or three weeks because the bottle conditioning needs to occur. So, it's refermentation in the bottle. So in order to get that CO2 built up and those those nice lovely bubbles, you're gonna have to leave that alone. Margaret But if it's cider, we can drink it right away because cider isn't conditioned. Sean Yeah, cider or wine. I like bottle conditioning cider. I like to carbonated cider. But if you're, if you're leaving it still, you know, that's kind of like the English tradition. I think you generally see more like carbonated cider, though. Margaret I'm...yeah, now that I realize I do....Cider does have carbonation. Great. I totally know what I'm saying. Sean Some don't and like a lot of...like, I was relating to like Basque cider. And you know, from like the France and Spain kind of border area you have like this huge range of carbonation. There you have some that are like champagne levels, like over carbonated like, you know, almost burns your nose when you drink it. And you have some that are completely still and then you have some that are, "Oh, yeah, I guess there are bubbles in here. I guess this is technically carbonated." Yeah, pétillant is the industry term. But so there is like a huge range on that. Margaret Okay, so the stuff I need is I need a fermentable, I need yeast. I need a not carboy but a bucket or whatever. I need a water lock...airlock. Sean Airlock or a blow off tube. Yeah. Margaret Yeah, and I need a way...either a spigot or a auto siphon. And I need bottles, bottle caps and a capper. Sean Yep. The other thing that I would say you need is, you need some kind of a sanitizer. If we're going with convenience, the easiest one is like a brewery specific sanitizer Star San or Quat, things like that. They're no-rinse sanitizers. So you don't...They sanitize and they leave a little bit of foam in place. And you don't need to rinse them. They will be broken down by the process of fermentation and they are soluble in alcohol and they are completely food safe. Yeah. So you generally buy these in like a concentrated form, like a 32oz or 64oz bottle with a little like dispenser, you know, thing at the top, and half an ounce of this concentrate will make...one ounce of the concentrate will make five gallons of sanitizing solution. So if you have one of these around... Margaret Jesus, so that's enough for a long time. Sean Yeah, I know, I've replaced my at some point, but I can't remember when the last time it was. Like, you don't go through it very quickly. It's definitely worth investing. You can, again in a pinch, you can use, you know, water diluted with bleach and then just rinse it with like water that's been boiled. Yeah, you can use you can use alcohol, right? You can you can use... Margaret If you have that still that we of course won't have...Once the apocalypse comes and we all make stills. Sean Yeah. Right, then in that situation, and obviously, you can use that to spray it down. You can even put, you know, in our in our current, you know, situation, you can you can put pop off vodka in a fucking Dollar Tree spray bottle and yeah, do it that way. You know, like there are options for that purpose. You know, like, you know, industry specific beverage and brewing no-rinse sanitizers are the easiest. And again, like we were talking about. Margaret Yeah, if you're planning it out. Sean If your first endeavor, if it goes well, right, and everything works easily, you're more likely to keep doing that. So, I definitely recommend using those, if possible, but again, certainly not necessary. Once you you've got that, the only other bit of material that we talked about, and it is optional, is the hydrometer. Margaret Oh, yeah, that's right. Because then you know when it's done. Sean You can also use a refractometer, which is a different piece of technology I mentioned. I meant to mention this earlier, but I didn't. A refractometer is...it almost looks like a little Kaleidoscope that you put up to your eye, but it's got like a like screen and then a piece of plastic that clips on top that lays flat on top of the screen. You put a couple of drops of your liquid on the screen and then put your plastic on there and you look through it. And it shows you on a line what your specific gravity is based on its refractometary index. Margaret Is the reason people homebrew is because they want to feel like mad scientists? And they want alcohol. Sean A lot of people I'm sure. Yeah. Margaret I mean, this is some mad Scientist shit. Now you use the kaleidoscope to find out how much alcohol there is. Sean I feel like yeah, you should have some Jacob's Ladders and Tesla coils behind you as you're doing it. Margaret That's how you sanitize is you make the ozone with it. Anyway. Sean Oh, you just lightening flash the ozone. Yeah, I can't believe I haven't heard about this. Yeah, no. The nice thing about the refractometer is we're talking like half a cc of liquid being used. So it is a really, really efficient way to measure it. It will not measure accurately in the presence of alcohol. There are like equations that can like compensate for this a little bit. Margaret Wait, then what good does it do? Sean It tells you how much is there originally. So if, like for me, I know to what degree like my house culture of yeast and bacteria ferments. It ferments down to like .002 or even just 1.0. The same lack of sugar in solution as water, basically. Right? So if I know that, I don't need to measure it at the end if it always winds up at the same place. Right? If I was selling it, I would need to, but if it's just for personal consumption, and I always know where it's finishing, I just need to know where it's starting and I know what the alcohol is. Margaret Okay. But then you can't tell if it's done except for the fact that you've done this enough that you're like the bubbles have stopped. It's been a week. I'm used to this. It's done. Or whatever. Sean Yeah, yeah. So, for Starting off, I definitely recommend the hydrometer. It's just more effective. And if you're doing all of your fermentation in a bucket anyway, it's real nice because you can, you can just put it in, you don't have to pull some out, put it in a sample, pour it, you know, put it in a tall cylinder and then toss that, you know, eight ounces of beverage down the drain or whatever. Margaret Yeah. Well, I think that's it. I think that we're out of time and we didn't even get to the food stuff. So, I'm gonna have to have you back on if that's alright some time. Sean Yeah, that's absolutely fine by me. I've enjoyed myself thoroughly. Margaret Fuck yeah. Is there anything that you want to plug? Like, for example, you have a book that people can buy about how to do some of this stuff? Maybe if more than one? I don't know. Like, you wanna? Yeah. Sean So "The Self-sufficient Solera" is the name of the book. I just did it is a Kindle single on Amazon. So you can you can get it there. If you don't, if you don't want to go through there, my website Seanvansickel.com. And yeah, there's contact info there too. You know, if anybody has any questions about any of this stuff, I love to share that and all of my writing is collected there. So, I've published an article on like, composting spent grains and like, you know, reducing waste from home brewing. I published that with Zymurgy Magazine recently. And, you know, that's all on there and original fiction and all that good stuff, too. Margaret Awesome. All right. Well, thank you so much. And I look forward to talking to you more about this soon. Sean Sounds good. Have a good one. Margaret Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed that episode then go get drunk. I don't know, maybe don't go get drunk. If you don't drink, we will be talking about fermentation that doesn't have to do with alcohol at some point in the future. And tell people about the show. We're weekly now. And you can be like, "Holy shit, this shows weekly," and people be like, "I've never heard what you're talking about." And you can be like, "I can't believe you've never heard of Live Like the World is Dying, what the fuck is wrong with you?" Or, instead of gatekeeping, you could just tell them that they can find it wherever they listen to podcasts. And if they're like, "I don't listen to podcasts," you can be like, "That's fair. Everyone gets information in different ways." I mean, you can be like, "No, you should absolutely listen podcasts. It's the only reasonable thing to do." You can also support us by supporting us on Patreon. Our Patreon is patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness is an anarchist media collective that puts out, you'll be shocked to know this, it puts out podcasts like this one, and Anarcho Geek Power Hour and Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. And we also put out zines and we put out books, including my most recent book "Escape from Incel Island." So you should support us if you want. It allows us to pay for transcriptions and audio editing and makes all of this possible. And in particular, I would like to thank top of all--I can't say Hoss the Dog is the best dog because Rintrah's the best dog. I'm sorry Hoss the Dog. I know every dog is the best dog to their individual people that they hang out with. But Rintrah is the best dog. But close runner up, just like close runner up on also Anderson, but close runner up is Hoss the Dog. And I'd also like to thank the following people who are presumably humans. Michiahah, Chris, Sam, Kirk, Eleanor, Jenipher, Staro, Cat J., Chelsea, Dana, David, Nicole, Mikki, Paige, SJ, Shawn, Hunter, theo, Boise Mutual Aid, Milica, paparouna, Aly, Paige, Janice, Oxalis, and Jans. Y'all make it possible. As for everyone else, y'all are also great because we're all going to try and get through this really, really nasty shit together. And we're doing it. We're so here. We will continue to be here. That's the plan. All right. Oh, goodbye. Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co

Ladies and Gentlemen it's that time of the month again when the Bull Shark Sammy Gordon & the Silver Dog Jimmy Ibrahim answer your questions! And hooly dooley are we punctual today. You can learn a lot in this episode as we discuss the advancements of the most recent interest rate hikes along with some awesome in-depth case study questions on selling properties & power struggles. The recent interest rate hike - [01:36] What does this migration mean for Australia - [05:42] Stock levels are tight because - [08:14] Jimmy stealing the audience's questions - should I wait?- [09:27] Question 1 - Sean - You don't want a power struggle - [11:56] Question 2 - Thomas - Case study [14:55] Paint a picture - [20:58] Question 3 - Jeffy - Drivers of property price booms [22:01] Question 4 - Callum - Thow a bit of Burleigh in first & why have you only sold 2 properties - [26:27] Question 5 - Jack - Discounts for first-time clients - [31:22] Comment from Paul & Mandy - [33:28] If you're taking tremendous value from these episodes why not share them with your mate? If you want your question answered on our podcast DM us on our socials or email us at apsteam@australianpropertyscout.com.au Send us your questions to: Instagram: @australianpropertyscout Want to book a call with us: Website: https://australianpropertyscout.com.au Any information, comments, opinions or content that we provide in this podcast is our general observations and information only and it is not to be taken as, or in any way, considered to be financial advice, accounting advice, superannuation advice or legal advice. We strongly recommend all and any listener and participant to obtain their own independent financial advice, accounting advice, superannuation advice and legal advice before acting in any way in relation to any investment at all including any investment in property such as what we might be discussing in this podcast. No warranty, guarantee or representation is to be taken and you cannot reproduce it in any way. Every persons financial or investment situation is different and you must consider your own circumstances before undertaking any investment and be sure to obtain independent advice. Australian Property Scout Pty Ltd | License Number: 10094798 | ABN: 64 638 266 369

Sean: You follow this idea and a lot of people are in that stage, Carol, more than you know, that they have an idea. They like this idea. They believe it will work. But some people were strong with wondering about these things and ideation and maybe even part of the execution in their heads. They hesitate and they think of all the wrong things that could happen. And then they think, "Oh, well, but I don't have the person with me to start." You had your husband who helped you to start this. What would be your advice for these people? Carol: So my husband was probably the least helpful of all the people I put together. I mean, he had a full-time job and he did some of the codings, but he actually didn't believe in what I was doing. So there's an important lesson here. He was kind of doing it because I'm pushy. If you don't do things, I push, right? But what I think really mattered there is - partnering is core. Now, there's one thing I do with my modern-day entrepreneurs, because my second book was dedicated only to entrepreneurs who wanted to do a responsible kind of business, not family or lifestyle, but ecological or fair trade or people of color, something they want to do. And I said all of you will do better if you will find partners. Like in both cases, I found a partner here, and finding a partner gives you someone to think with. So I now pretty much quit doing this in the last year, but I have communities that entrepreneurs join. They're all been online since COVID, right? And you have other people to think with because the most important thing is to develop your capacity to discern what's right. Because our problem is we don't trust ourselves and we don't know how to think about it. So we want to coach or we want to mentor or we want like - I didn't ask my husband for advice, not because he was not a wonderful man, but because I needed to learn to trust me and he wanted to invest it. If you're invested, gets a thinking partner and a group of thinking partners and they can be physically where you are. Don't get coaches and mentors. I don't recommend that. I get communities of other people who have different levels of experience. Some of them they're called masterminds. But I haven't found one of those I respect very much. It's more like finding a group of people who want to start businesses of their own. And you know that if you're thinking with them and them with you, you're going to have better thoughts. And then secondly, add to that what I make sure all my entrepreneurs get is critical thinking skills and personal self-management. Because what gets us in trouble, you were hinting at it is my own internal dialogue; "Oh, no, what could go wrong? What if this fails? Maybe I should just get a job and do this as a side hustle?" Well, maybe that's true but the most important thing is to build the skill, to sort through all that, and community and thinking partners are the way to do it. - - - Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/leadershipstack Join our community and ask questions here: from.sean.si/discord Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/leadershipstack Leadership Stack Merch: https://leadershipstack.com/shop/

Sean: You mentioned personal development. What about personal development is so important in critical thinking and becoming a better entrepreneur? Carol: Because we're born incomplete. You think about we're born physically incomplete. We're tiny little things and muscles don't work. We can't stand up, can't roll over. As we go along in life, we learn a lot about our physical being. We learn a lot about numbers and everybody knows all that. What we don't do in any country that's been Westernized, for sure now is work on how our mind works and how it gets in our way. 00:00:34 Carol: So I teach people a lot about - I'll give an example of what it looks like because we can't do anything right now because we can't think well and we get scared and we don't know how to manage it. So two things. For example, I teach people to be able to self-observe, and I said this in my books, there's tons of it in my books, especially the last couple. I say, learn to watch yourself. Are you based on what's happening with someone else being reactive, getting upset or afraid or protective or it is what? Don't try and do anything about it. Just start to notice when that happens. Or do you want to, while noticing your ego gets caught up and you either are losing confidence or being overconfident or trying to push people or be an influencer? Somehow it's all about you. Or are you purposeful? Are you able to see not your purpose, but their purpose and join with it? Join the client. If you want to be a great business owner that has a direct connection like B2C business to consumer, you've got to be able to read them, to understand them, if you want to help them. That's purposeful. If you become reactive when they start asking you questions about your charges and your problem with your app and you start pounding on the desk, even if it's only in your mind, you're not going to be a good business owner. - - - Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/leadershipstack Join our community and ask questions here: from.sean.si/discord Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/leadershipstack Leadership Stack Merch: https://leadershipstack.com/shop/

Sean: We have a question from Michelle, how can one overcome shiny object syndrome in learning something that's beyond your current role? Oh, good question. That's a good question. Jeff: In learning, how can one overcome the shiny object syndrome in learning something that is beyond your current role? I'm not too familiar, Sean, with the shiny object syndrome. Sean: It's like "Ooh, I want to learn that" even if it's not too relevant to what they're doing. Jeff: Oh, yeah. And I think this is a lot of the candidates even direct reports I had in the past have experienced having this one. Even here in Zagana to a certain extent, you would want to try this out, probably this one is good for me, and so on. And you mentioned, that coaching really helps them with this one. The coaching sessions - this is what I would also advocate for leaders in the organization to have is the coaching skills, you have to have that kind of interaction or engagement with your employees where you would as thought-provoking questions that would raise awareness, that would challenge their thoughts so that it would always align to what they want to achieve in life, rather than what you mentioned, the shiny object. "Oh, this is this looks nice. This looks like it's something that's interesting." And then all of a sudden you've spent one whole year accomplishing nothing. I think the coaching part would help your employees figure out for themselves, not you telling them that this is something that aligns with what they want to be in the future, and that would help them avoid this kind of scenario as well. Sean: You know I'm sure you're going to lose it someday when you're growing older, you're going to lose that. So we all are going to lose that, right? We come to a certain age where we just want to get comfortable in our ways. That's why there's a saying that goes, "you can't teach an old dog, new tricks." Jeff: I refuse to refuse to believe that, Sean. And I got to be an old dog. Sean: We all know you're not that old, you know, shiny object syndrome. It's more because you haven't found your burning 'why' in life? Because if you find that burning 'why' and what I mean by burning 'why'. It's you find out the reason why you're born, you find out the reason why you're put on this earth. It's because of that one burning purpose when you find that out. And it could be like two or three things right? Like, for me, it's running my business for the glory of God. And it's also making sure that I give to others, and I give to God, and I give to the church. It's also making sure that along the way I share God's kingdom with other people, such as what I'm doing now. The reason why I'm able to do this podcast is that I have a business that can actually pay for the show and the editors and everything, right? So those are a lot of burning 'whys' for me. And so that's why it could be more than one thing, but if you find it, then all those shiny objects suddenly fade away, right? Because, you know, these are the things that are super important for me. Or it could be one. This is the thing. This is the thing and I've found it. It's my burning 'why' I'm going to focus on this. Suddenly they all lose their shininess or their luster, and you're not going to be after them anymore. You're only going to be after anything that's related to your burning 'why.' - - - Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/leadershipstack Join our community and ask questions here: from.sean.si/discord Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/leadershipstack

Can Virtual Reality (VR) technology be used to tap into your body´s innate healing abilities? Parker Howell is a revolutionary designer of VR technology who has helped a close mutual friend with stroke damage regain function in his right arm with VR-aided visualisation and movement. And more. Here we discuss using this technology to tap into your body´s own healing abilities. We reference the work of Dr Joe Dispenza and making healing, fun. This is fascinating!   Show Notes  2 mins - Parker´s intro to Virtual Reality. Dancing with the Stars. Jennifer Lopez, other celebs 5 - A little intro into creation of powerful technology 7 - “Hacking human consciousness” - Intro on VR.  8 - Creating experiences such as the human heartbeat  9 -  Replicating a DREAM - getting into a dream-like space  10 - The metaverse - impact it's going to have on the world, can it be used for good? 11 - We are already entering the meta verse  12 - Balance between Nature and Tech. Parker´s rule of living in LA.   13 - Pandemic Hits and limbo of uncertainty, how to use this time.. 15 - Kundalini Visualisation with Healing Light  16 - Oculus Quest headset, seeing energy coming through your finger tips  17 - Working on healing and going into your body. Connecting with visual and audio stimuli, adding laters of code. Augmenting ability to heal. Putting it all together.  18 - Hand tracking creation - enter Sean Entin, firing his naysayers, becoming the “Stroke Hacker”   19 - “I've not looked at my hand in over a decade - can we get my mobility back?” 20 - Step 1. Believe you can. Step 2: do the work.  21 - Parker researched strokes and sat Sean down to begin the work.  22 - Recreating non-working arm from working arm motion  23 - Neural Linguistic Programming (NLP) - creating all of the senses - Cosmic Looking Glass - Neural Plasticity Trainer  24 - Sean: “You're never going to believe what happened.” Bench pressing from a paralysed arm!  25 - Building from pre-existing tech. Correlation with Dr Joe Dispenza.  26 - Visualising the spine recreating - Dr Joe Dispenza - teaching others to do the same. “Through visualisation we can heal ourselves.”  27 - Recreating “the feeling is the prayer” - feeling it, believing it, knowing it is already done.  28 - VR - What's always the low hanging fruit? What´s the future of this tech? Not replacing healers - rather, extending their reach.  29 - Metaverse can work alongside Nature 30 - Habit creation. 10 mins in the morning. 10 mins at night.  31 - “There is nothing more powerful than the human body” 32 - Training the muscle - we are not taught to visualise in school!  33 - It´s important for people to know what their hardware. Most people are disconnected from their body- we are truly powerful beings    34 - Carl Jung - The Red Book 35 - Lucid Dreaming  36 - Relating to the world in a very different way, through VR - conjuring up a Lucid dream in waking life.  37 - VR beings a perfect lab to hack into our consciousness / tapping into the healing process. Getting back into the driving seat.  39 - Circling back to Nature and using Tech in the real world.  40 - Making healing fun. Making the human body fun.  41 - Multitasking and task switching. Getting out out of the pinball machine.  42 - 12 minute experience. Cosmic Looking Glass. Don't do it more than 20 mins.  43 - Blue light protection discussion - (I checked, they're available online)  46 - First step: Belief. People must have the belief, and desire to heal, and have the knowing that the body can heal itself.  47 - The science of epigenetics and a harmonious environment - making this fun  48 - A reference to Wim Hof breathwork daily, making this fun. Heart & Brain coherence. Starting the day off on a high. 49 - More examples of visualisations like blood flow. Commanding our cells. Visualising all organs functioning optimally.  50 - Utilising the senses with VR. What's the most fun way to get people into light cardio? Breathwork, yoga, making it fun… combo with VR. 51 -  Mental Rehearsal - practicing playing the piano example & working out in the gym - Dr Joe Dispenza  52 - Reference to body building - neurological signals through process to build muscle. Exercise is the process to stimulate the chemical process to create muscle mass. Can this be “hacked?”  53 - Reference to The Iceman - “my body is my laboratory”   54 - Parker´s ASK / request - how to scale? Does anyone know anyone who can help him to scale? ParkerHowell.com  54 - Parker´s #1 Vitality Secret Find out more from Parker and his work at ParkerHowell.com.  Head to VitalitySecret.com/podcast for more interviews of how to heal your body body. If you would like coaching, or to join my online program, please head to https://vitalitysecret.com/coaching/. 

Sean: You don't need to tell us the number, but how many months of your personal expense would that be before you finally threw in the towel? Dave: Yeah, it's a little different than that. The way I do things is I and I advocate this actually for people that are looking for yield and chasing opportunities, investment opportunities. I think that fundamentally when you chase investment opportunity, I think you're actually missing the boat. I think you're fundamentally potentially making the ultimate sin, which is trying to keep up with the Joneses. And I think trying to keep up with the Joneses is the most insidious thing you can do in your life. It's the thing that frankly contributes to, I think, the most unhappiness, because then it results in situations where no matter how much money or how much power or how much prestige you have, you're always worrying about what the Joneses are up to. You're always worried about, do they have more money than me? Are they more powerful than me? Are they more famous than me? Do they have more followers than me? And I think that fundamentally becomes a root of unhappiness. Dave: And I think that a lot of people, particularly on the investing side, get caught up in, 'hey, my buddy at the country club made 10x money or 100x money on some bitcoin investment. I should be doing the same thing.' Or 'my neighbor down the street was telling me about some stock he bought and that really chops me because like I should about that stock.' Right? So the way I think about the amount that you really need to retire and walk away is your personal cost of capital. And everyone's personal cost of capital is different. I happen to be in a situation where I actually grew up in poverty and I know what it's like to make $3.35 an hour cleaning toilets because that's what I did. I worked at Safeway and I was a bagger and I was a janitor making $3.35 an hour. Dave: And so I always thought about, okay, how much money do I need, Dave Liu, how much money do I need to live and what rate of return do I need to generate in order to hit my personal cost capital? And the reality is, for me, even though I was this big managing director and co-head of an industry group, I lived and continue to live a very modest life. I remember when many of my other managing directors were driving, you know, seven series, BMW, Mercedes, Ferraris, high-speed sports cars. I was driving around in a $20,000 Honda S2000, and many of my partners were making fun of me. Like, dude, like, what are you doing? Like, why don't you go buy a Lamborghini or a Ferrari? And I said, No, I don't want to. Because at some point I want to be able to walk away from this place and I want to make sure that I have a certain lifestyle that I can finance through a modest rate of return on my portfolio without having to work, without having to deal with the rat race. - - - Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/leadershipstack Join our community and ask questions here: from.sean.si/discord Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/leadershipstack

About SeanSean is a senior software engineer at TheZebra, working to build developer experience tooling with a focus on application stability and scalability. Over the past seven years, they have helped create software and proprietary platforms that help teams understand and better their own work.Links: TheZebra: https://www.thezebra.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/sc_codeUM LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sean-corbett-574a5321/ Email: scorbett@thezebra.com TranscriptSean: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief cloud economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Today's episode is brought to you in part by our friends at MinIO the high-performance Kubernetes native object store that's built for the multi-cloud, creating a consistent data storage layer for your public cloud instances, your private cloud instances, and even your edge instances, depending upon what the heck you're defining those as, which depends probably on where you work. It's getting that unified is one of the greatest challenges facing developers and architects today. It requires S3 compatibility, enterprise-grade security and resiliency, the speed to run any workload, and the footprint to run anywhere, and that's exactly what MinIO offers. With superb read speeds in excess of 360 gigs and 100 megabyte binary that doesn't eat all the data you've gotten on the system, it's exactly what you've been looking for. Check it out today at min.io/download, and see for yourself. That's min.io/download, and be sure to tell them that I sent you.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Sysdig. Sysdig is the solution for securing DevOps. They have a blog post that went up recently about how an insecure AWS Lambda function could be used as a pivot point to get access into your environment. They've also gone deep in-depth with a bunch of other approaches to how DevOps and security are inextricably linked. To learn more, visit sysdig.com and tell them I sent you. That's S-Y-S-D-I-G dot com. My thanks to them for their continued support of this ridiculous nonsense.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud, I'm Corey Quinn. An awful lot of companies out they're calling themselves unicorns, which is odd because if you look at the root ‘uni,' it means one, but they're sure a lot of them out there. Conversely, my guest today works at a company called TheZebra with the singular definite article being the key differentiator here, and frankly, I'm a big fan of being that specific. My guest is Senior Software Development Engineer in Test, Sean Corbett. Sean, thank you for taking the time to join me today, and more or less suffer the slings and arrows, I will no doubt be hurling your direction.Sean: Thank you very much for having me here.Corey: So, you've been a great Twitter follow for a while: You're clearly deeply technically skilled; you also have a soul, you're strong on the empathy point, and that is an embarrassing lack in large swaths of our industry. I'm going to talk about that right now because I'm sure it comes through the way it does when you talk about virtually anything else. Instead, you are a Software Development Engineer in Test or SDET. I believe you are the only person I'm aware of in my orbit who uses that title, so I have to ask—and please don't view this as me in any way criticizing you; it's mostly my own ignorance speaking—what is that?Sean: So, what is a Software Development Engineer in Test? If you look back—I believe it was Microsoft originally came up with the title, and what it stems from was they needed software development engineers who particularly specialized in creating automation frameworks for testing stuff at scale. And that was over a decade ago, I believe. Microsoft has since stopped using the term, but it persists in areas in the industry.And what is an SDET today? Well, I think we're going to find out it's a strange mixture of things. SDET today is not just someone that creates automated frameworks or writes tests, or any of those things. An SDET is the strange amalgamation of everything from full-stack to DevOps to even some product management to even a little bit machine-learning engineer; it's a truly strange field that, at least for me, has allowed me to basically embrace almost every other discipline and area of the current modern engineering around, to some degree. So, it's fun, is what it is. [laugh].Corey: This sounds similar in some respects to oh, I think back to a role that I had in 2008, 2009, where there was an entire department that was termed QA or Quality Assurance, and they were sort of the next step. You know, development would build something and start, and then deploy it to a test environment or staging environment, and then QA would climb all over this, sometimes with automation—which was still in the early days, back in that era—and sometimes by clicking the button, and going through scripts, and making sure that the website looked okay. Is that aligned with what you're doing, or is that a bit of a different branch?Sean: That is a little bit of a different branch from me. The way I would put it is QA and QA departments are an interesting artifact that I think, in particular, newer orgs still feel like they might need one, and what you quickly realize today, particularly with modern development and this, kind of, DevOps focus is that having that centralized QA department doesn't really work. So, SDETs absolutely can do all those things: They can climb over a test environment with automation, they can click the buttons, they can tell you everything's good, they can check the boxes for you if you want, but if that is what you're using your SDETs for you are, frankly, missing out because I guarantee you, the people that you've hired as SDETs have a lot more skills than that, and not utilizing those to your advantage is missing out on a lot of potential benefit, both in terms of not just quality—which is this fantastic concept that dates all the way back to—gives people a lot of weird feelings [laugh] to be frank, and product.Corey: So, one of the challenges I've always had is people talk about test-driven development, which sounds like a beautiful idea in theory, and in practice is something people—you know, just like using the AWS console, and then lying about it forms this heart and soul of ClickOps—we claim to be using test-driven development but we don't seem to be the reality of software development. And again, no judgment on these; things are hard. I built out a, more or less, piecing together a whole bunch of toothpicks and string to come up with my newsletter production pipeline. And that's about 29 Lambdas Function, behind about 5 APIs Gateway, and that was all kinds of ridiculous nonsense.And I can deploy each of the six or so microservices that do this, independently. And I sometimes even do continuous build or slash continuous deploy to it because integration would imply I have tests, which is why I bring the topic up. And more often than not—because I'm very bad at computers—I will even have syntax errors, make it into this thing, and I push the button and suddenly it doesn't work. It's the iterative guess-and-check model that goes on here. So, I introduced regressions, a fair bit at the time, and the reason that I'm being so blase about this is that I am the only customer of this system, which means that I'm not out there making people's lives harder, no one is paying me money to use this thing, no one else is being put out by it. It's just me smacking into a wall and feeling dumb all the time.And when I talk to people about the idea of building tests. And it's like, “Oh, you should have unit tests and integration tests and all the rest.” And I did some research into the topics, and a lot of it sounds like what people were talking about 10 to 15 years ago in the world of tests. And again, to be clear, I've implemented none of these things because I am irresponsible and bad at computers. But what has changed over the last five or ten years? Because it feels like the overall high level as I understood it from intro to testing 101 in the world of Python, the first 18 chapters are about dependency manager—because of course they are; it's Python—then the rest of it just seems to be the concepts that we've never really gotten away from. What's new, what's exciting, what's emerging in your space?Sean: There's definitely some emerging and exciting stuff in the space. There's everything from, like, what Applitools does with using machine learning to do visual regressions—that's a huge advantage, a huge time saver, so you don't have to look pixel by pixel, and waste your time doing it—to things like our team at TheZebra is working on, which is, for example, a framework that utilizes Directed Acrylic Graph workflows that's written GoLang—the prototype is—and it allows you to work with these tests, rather than just as kind of these blasé scripts that you either keep in a monorepo, or maybe possibly in each individual services' repo, and just run them all together clumsily in this, kind of, packaged product, into this distributed resource that lets you think about tests as these, kind of, user flows and experiences and to dip between things like API layer, where you might, for example, say introduce regression [unintelligible 00:07:48] calling to a third-party resource, and something goes wrong, you can orchestrate that workflow as a whole. Rather than just having to write a script after script after script after script to cover all these test cases, you can focus on well, I'm going to create this block that represents this general action, can accept a general payload that conforms to this spec, and I'm going to orchestrate these general actions, maybe modify the payload of it, but I can recall those actions with a slightly different payload and not have to write script after script after script after script.But the problem is that, like you've noticed, a lot of test tooling doesn't embrace those, kind of, modern practices and ideas. It's still very much the, your tests, you—particularly integration tests do this—will exist in one place, a monorepo, they will have all the resources there, they'll be packaged together, you will run them after the fact, after a deploy, on an environment. And it makes it so that all these testing tools are very reactive, they don't encourage a lot of experimentation, and they make it at times very difficult to experiment, in particular because the more tests you add, the more chaotic that code and that framework gets, and the harder it gets to run in a CI/CD environment, the longer it takes. Whereas if you have something like this graph tool that we're building, these things just become data. You can store them in a database, for the love of God. You can apply modern DevOps practices, you can implement things like Jaeger.Corey: I don't think it's ever used or anything in the database. Great, then you can use anything itself as a database, which is my entire schtick, so great.Sean: Exactly.Corey: That's right, that means the entire world can indeed be reduced to TXT records in DNS, which I maintain is the… the holiest of all databases. I'm sorry, please, continue.Sean: No, nonono, that's true. The thing that has always driven me is this idea that why are we still just, kind of, spitting out code to test things in a way that is very prescriptive and very reactive? And so, the exciting things in test come from places like Applitools and places like the—oh, I forget. It was at a Test Days conference, where they talked about—they developed this test framework that was able to auto generate the models, and then it was so good at auto generating those models for test, they'd actually ended up auto generating the models for the actual product. [laugh]. I think it used a degree of machine learning to do so. It was for a flashcard site. A friend of mine, Jacob Evans on Twitter always likes to talk about it.These are where the exciting things lay is where people are starting to break out of that very reactive, prescriptive, kind of, test philosophy of, like I like to say, checking the boxes to, “Let's stop checking boxes and let's create, like insight tooling. Let's get ahead of the curve. What is the system actively doing? Let's check in. What data do we have? What is the system doing right at this moment? How ahead of the curve can we get with what we're actually using to test?”Corey: One question I have is the cultural changes because back in those early days where things were handed off from the developers to the QA team, and then ideally to where I was sitting over in operations—lots of handoffs; not a lot of integrations there—QA was not popular on the development side of the world, specifically because their entire perception was that of, “Oh, they're just the critics. They're going to wind up doing the thing I just worked hard on and telling me what's wrong with it.” And it becomes a ‘Department of No,' on some level. One of the, I think, benefits of test automation is that suddenly you're blaming a computer for things, which is, “Yep. You are a developer. Good work.” But the idea of putting people almost in the line of fire of being either actually or perceived as the person who's the blocker, how has that evolved? And I'm really hoping the answer is that it has.Sean: In some places, yes, in some places, no. I think it's always, there's a little bit more nuance than just yes, it's all changed, it's all better, or just no, we're still back in QA are quote-unquote, “The bad guys,” and all that stuff. The perception that QA are the critics and are there to block a great idea from seeing fruition and to block you from that promotion definitely still persists. And it also persists a lot in terms of a number of other attitudes that get directed towards QA folks, in terms of the fact that our skill sets are limited to writing stuff like automation tooling for test frameworks and stuff like that, or that we only know how to use things like—okay, well, they know how to use Selenium and all this other stuff, but they don't know how to work a database, they don't know how an app [unintelligible 00:12:07] up, they don't all the work that I put in. That's really not the case. More and more so, folks I'm seeing in test have actually a lot of other engineers experience to back that up.And so the places where I do see it moving forward is actually like TheZebra, it's much more of a collaborative environment where the engineers are working together with the teams that they're embedded in or with the SDETs to build things and help things that help engineers get ahead of the curve. So, the way I propose it to folks is, “We're going to make sure you know and see exactly what you wrote in terms of the code, and that you can take full [confidence 00:12:44] on that so when you walk up to your manager for your one-on-one, you can go like, ‘I did this. And it's great. And here's what I know what it does, and this is where it goes, and this is how it affects everything else, and my test person helped me see all this, and that's awesome.'” It's this transition of QA and product as these adversarial relationships to recognizing that there's no real differentiator at all there when you stop with that reactive mindset in test. Instead of trying to just catch things you're trying to get ahead of the curve and focus on insight and that sort of thing.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Vultr. Spelled V-U-L-T-R because they're all about helping save money, including on things like, you know, vowels. So, what they do is they are a cloud provider that provides surprisingly high performance cloud compute at a price that—while sure they claim its better than AWS pricing—and when they say that they mean it is less money. Sure, I don't dispute that but what I find interesting is that it's predictable. They tell you in advance on a monthly basis what it's going to going to cost. They have a bunch of advanced networking features. They have nineteen global locations and scale things elastically. Not to be confused with openly, because apparently elastic and open can mean the same thing sometimes. They have had over a million users. Deployments take less that sixty seconds across twelve pre-selected operating systems. Or, if you're one of those nutters like me, you can bring your own ISO and install basically any operating system you want. Starting with pricing as low as $2.50 a month for Vultr cloud compute they have plans for developers and businesses of all sizes, except maybe Amazon, who stubbornly insists on having something to scale all on their own. Try Vultr today for free by visiting: vultr.com/screaming, and you'll receive a $100 in credit. Thats V-U-L-T-R.com slash screaming.Corey: One of my questions is, I guess, the terminology around a lot of this. If you tell me you're an SDE, I know that oh, you're a Software Development Engineer. If you tell me you're a DBA, I know oh, great, you're a Database Administrator. If you told me you're an SRE, I know oh, okay, great. You worked at Google.But what I'm trying to figure out is I don't see SDET, at least in the waters that I tend to swim in, as a title, really, other than you. Is that a relatively new emerging title? Is it one that has historically been very industry or segment-specific, or you're doing what I did, which is, “I don't know what to call myself, so I described myself as a Cloud Economist,” two words no one can define. Cloud being a bunch of other people's computers, and economist meaning claiming to know everything about money, but dresses like a flood victim. So, no one knows what I am when I make it up, and then people start giving actual job titles to people that are Cloud Economists now, and I'm starting to wonder, oh dear Lord, have I started the thing? What is, I guess, the history and positioning of SDET as a job title slash acronym?Sean: So SDET, like I was saying, it came from Microsoft, I believe, back in the double-ohs.Corey: Mmm.Sean: And other companies caught on. I think Google actually [unintelligible 00:14:33] as well. And it's hung on certain places, particularly places that feel like they need a concentrated quality department. That's where you usually will see places that have that title of SDET. It is increasingly less common because the idea of having centralized quality—like I said before, particularly with the modern, kind of, DevOps-focused development, Agile, and all that sort of thing, it becomes much, much more difficult.If you have a waterfall type of development cycle, it's a lot easier to have a central singular quality department, and then you can have SDET stuff [unintelligible 00:15:08], that gets a lot easier when you have Agile and you have that, kind of, regular integration and you have, particularly, DevOps [unintelligible 00:15:14] cycle, it becomes increasingly difficult, so a lot of places that have been moving away from that. It is definitely a strange title, but it is not entirely rare. If you want to peek, put a SDET on your LinkedIn for about two weeks and see how many offers come in, or how many folks in your inbox you get. It is absolutely in demand. People want engineers to write these test frameworks, but that's an entirely different point; that gets down to the point of the fact that people want people in these roles because a lot of test tooling, frankly, sucks.Corey: It's interesting you talk about that as a validation of it. I get remarkably few outreaches on LinkedIn, either for recruiting, which almost never happens or for trying to sell me something which happens once every week or so. My business partner has a CEO title, and he winds up getting people trying to sell him things four times a day by lunchtime, and occasionally people reaching out of, “Hey, I don't know much about your company, but if it's not going well, do you want to come work on something completely unrelated?” Great. And it's odd because both he and I have similar settings where neither of us have the ‘looking for work' box checked on LinkedIn because it turns out that does send a message to your staff who are depending on their job still being here next month, and that isn't overly positive because we're not on the market.But changing just titles and how we describe what we do and how we do it absolutely has a bearing as to how that is perceived by others. And increasingly, I'm spending more of my time focusing less on the technical substance of things and more about how what they do is being communicated. Because increasingly, what I'm finding about the world of enterprise technology and enterprise cloud and all of this murky industry in which we swim, is that the technology is great—anything can be made to work; mostly—but so few companies are doing an effective job of telling the story. And we see it with not just an engineering-land; in most in all parts of the business. People are not storytelling about what they do, about the outcomes they drive, and we're falling back to labels and buzzwords and acronyms and the rest.Where do you stand on this? I know we've spoken briefly before about how this is one of those things that you're paying attention to as well, so I know that we're not—I'm not completely off base here. What's your take on it?Sean: I definitely look at the labels and things of that sort. It's one of those things where humans like to group and aggregate things. Our brains like that degree of organization, and I'm going to say something that is very stereotypical here: This is helped a lot by social media which depends on things like hashtags and ability to group massive amounts of information is largely facilitated. And I don't know if it's caused by it, but it certainly aggravates the situation.We like being able to group things with few words. But as you said before, that doesn't help us. So, in a particular case, with something like a SDET title, yeah, that does absolutely send a signal, and it doesn't necessarily send the right one in terms of the person that you're talking to, you might have vastly different capabilities from the next SDET that you talk to. And it's were putting up a story of impact-driven, kind of, that classic way of focusing on not just the labels, but what was actually done and who had helped and who had enabled and the impact of it, that is key. The trick is trying to balance that with this increasing focus on the cut-down presentation.You and I've talked about this before, too, where you can only say so much on something like a LinkedIn profile before people just turn off their brains and they walk away to the next person. Or you can only put so much on your resume before people go, “Okay, ten pages, I'm done.” And it's just one of those things where… the trick I find that test people increasingly have is there was a very certain label applied to us that was rooted in one particular company's needs, and we have spent the better part of over a decade trying to escape and redefine that, and it's incredibly challenging. And a lot of it comes down to folks like, for example, Angie Jones, who simply, just through pure action and being very open about exactly what they're doing, change that narrative just by showing. That form of storytelling is show it, don't say it, you know? Rather than saying, “Oh, well, I bring into all this,” they just show it, and they bring it forward that way.Corey: I think you hit on something there with the idea of social media, where there is validity to the idea of being able to describe something concisely. “What's your elevator pitch?” Is a common question in business. “What is the problem you solve? What would someone use you for?”And if your answer to that requires you sabotage the elevator for 45 minutes in order to deliver your message, it's not going to work. With some products, especially very early-stage products where the only people who are working on them are the technical people building them, they have a lot of passion for the space, but they aren't—haven't quite gotten the messaging down to be able to articulate it. People's attention spans aren't great, by and large, so there's a, if it doesn't fit in a tweet, it's boring and crappy is sort of the takeaway here. And yeah, you're never going to encapsulate volume and nuance and shading into a tweet, but the baseline description of, “So, what do you do?” If it doesn't fit in a tweet, keep workshopping it, to some extent.And it's odd because I do think you're right, it leads to very yes or no, binary decisions about almost anything, someone is good or trash. There's no, people are complicated, depending upon what aspect we're talking about. And same story with companies. Companies are incredibly complex, but that tends to distill down in the Twitter ecosystem to, “Engineers are smart and executives are buffoons.” And anytime a company does something, clearly, it's a giant mistake.Well, contrary to popular opinion, Global Fortune 2000 companies do not tend to hire people who are not highly capable at the thing they're doing. They have context and nuance and constraints that are not visible from the outside. So, that is one of the frustrating parts to me. So, labels are helpful as far as explaining what someone is and where they fit in the ecosystem. For example, yeah, if you describe yourself as an SDET, I know that we're talking about testing to some extent; you're not about to show up and start talking to me extensively about, oh, I don't know, how you market observability products.It at least gives a direction and bounding to the context. The challenge I always had, why I picked a title that no one else had, was that what I do is complicated, and if once people have a label that they think encompasses where you start and where you stop, they stop listening, in some cases. What's been your experience, given that you do have a title that is not as widely traveled as a number of the more commonly used ones?Sean: Definitely that experience. I think that I've absolutely worked at places where—the thing is, though, and I do want to cite this, that when folks do end up just turning off once they have that nice little snippet that they think encompasses who you are—because increasingly nowadays, we like to attach what you do to who you are—and it makes a certain degree of sense, absolutely, but it's very hard to encompass those sorts of things, and let alone, kind of, closely nestle them together when you have, you know, 280 characters.Yes, folks like to do that to folks like SDETs. There's a definite mindset of, ‘stay in your lane,' in certain shops. I will say that it's not to the benefit of those shops, and it creates and often aggravates an adversarial relationship that is to the detriment of both, particularly today where the ability to spin up a rival product of reasonable quality and scale has never been easier, slowing yourself down with arbitrary delineations that are meant to relegate and overly-define folks, not necessarily for the actual convenience of your business, but for the convenience of your person, that is a very dangerous move. A previous company that I worked at almost lost a significant amount of their market share because they actively antagonized the SDET team to the point where several key members left. And it left them completely unable to cover areas of product with scalable automation tooling and other things. And it's a very complex product.And it almost cost them their position in the industry, potentially, the entire company as a whole got very close to that point. And that's one of the things we have to be careful of when it comes to applying these labels, is that when you apply a label to encompass someone, yes, you affect them, but it also we'll come back and affect you because when you apply that label to someone, you are immediately confining your relationship with that person. And that relationship is a two-way street. If you apply a label that closes off other roads of communication or potential collaboration or work or creativity or those sorts of things, that is your decision and you will have to accept those consequences.Corey: I've gotten the sense that a lot of folks, as they describe what they do and how they do it, they are often thinking longer-term; their careers often trend toward the thing that happens to them rather than a thing that winds up being actively managed. And… like, one of my favorite interview questions whenever I'm looking to bring someone in, it's always, “Yeah, ignore this job we're talking about. Magically you get it or you don't; whatever. That's not relevant right now. What's your next job? What's the one after that? What is the trajectory here?”And it's always fun to me to see people's responses to it. Often it's, “I have no idea,” versus the, “Oh, I want to do this, and this is the thing I'm interested in working with you for because I think it'll shore up this, this, and this.” And like, those are two extreme ends of the spectrum. There's no wrong answer, but it's helpful, I find, just to ask the question in the final round interview that I'm a part of, just to, I guess sort of like, boost them a bit into a longer-term picture view, as opposed to next week, next month, next year. Because if what you're doing doesn't bring you closer to what you want to be doing in the job after the next one, then I think you're looking at it wrong, in some cases.And I guess I'll turn the question on to you. If you look at what you're doing now, ignore whatever you do next, what's your role after that? Like, where are you aiming at?Sean: Ignoring the next position… which is interesting because I always—part of how I learned to operate, kind of in my earlier years was focus on the next two weeks because the longer you go out from that window, the more things you can't control, [laugh] and the harder it is to actually make an effective plan. But for me, the real goal is I want to be in any position that enables the hard work we do in building these things to make people's lives easier, better, give them access to additional information, maybe it's joy in terms of, like, a content platform, maybe it's something that helps other developers do what they do, something like Honeycomb, for example, just that little bit of extra insight to help them work a little bit better. And that's, for me, where I want to be, is building things that make the hard work we do to create these tools, these products easier. So, for me, that would look a lot like an internal tooling team of some sort, something that helps with developer efficiency, with workflow.One of the reasons—and it's funny because I got to asked this recently: “Why are you still even in test? You know what reputation this field has”—wrongly deserved, maybe so—“Why are you still in test?” My response was, “Because”—and maybe with a degree of hubris, stubbornly so—“I want to make things better for test.” There are a lot of issues we're facing, not just in terms of tooling, but in terms of processes, and how we think about solving problems, and like I said before, that kind of reactive nature, it sort of ends up kind of being an ouroboros, eating its own tail. Reactive tools generate reactive engineers, that then create more reactive tools, and it becomes this ouroboros eating itself.Where I want to be in terms of this is creating things that change that, push us forward in that direction. So, I think that internal tooling team is a fantastic place to do that, but frankly, any place where I could do that at any level would be fantastic.Corey: It's nice to see the things that you care about involve a lot more about around things like impact, as opposed to raw technologies and the rest. And again, I'm not passing judgment on anyone who chooses to focus on technology or different areas of these things. It's just, it's nice to see folks who are deeply technical themselves, raising their head a little bit above it and saying, “All right, here's the impact I want to have.” It's great, and lots of folks do, but I'm always frustrated when I find myself talking to folks who think that the code ultimately speaks; code is the arbiter. Like, you see this with some of the smart contract stuff, too.It's the, “All right, if you believe that's going to solve all the problems, I have a simple challenge to you, and then I will never criticize you again: Go to small claims court for a morning, four hours and watch all the disputes that wind up going through there, and ask yourselves how many of those a smart contract would have solved?”Every time I bring that point up to someone, they never come back and say, “This is still a good idea.” Maybe I'm a little too anti-computer, a little bit too human these days. But again, most of cloud economics, in my experience, is psychology more than it is math.Sean: I think it's really the truth. And I think that [unintelligible 00:29:06] that I really want to seize on for a second because code and technology as this ultimate arbiter, we've become fascinated with it, not necessarily to our benefit. One of the things you will often see me—to take a line from Game of Thrones—whinging about [laugh] is we are overly focused on utilizing technology, whether code or anything else, to solve what are fundamentally human problems. These are problems that are rooted in human tendencies, habits, characters, psychology—as you were saying—that require human interaction and influence, as uncomfortable as that may be to quote-unquote, “Solve.”And the reality of it is, is that the more that we insist upon, trying to use technology to solve those problems—things like cases of equity in terms of generational wealth and things of that sort, things like helping people communicate issues with one another within a software development engineering team—the more we will create complexity and additional problems, and the more we will fracture people's focus and ability to stay focused on what the underlying cause of the problem is, which is something human. And just as a side note, the fundamental idea that code is this ultimate arbiter of truth is terrible because if code was the ultimate arbiter of truth, I wouldn't have a job, Corey. [laugh]. I would be out of business so fast.Corey: Oh, yeah, it's great. It's—ugh, I—it feels like that's a naive perspective that people tend to have early in their career, and Lord knows I did. Everything was so straightforward and simple, back when I was in that era, whereas the older I get, the more the world is shades of nuance.Sean: There are cases where technology can help, but I tend to find those a very specific class of solutions, and even then they can only assist a human with maybe providing some additional context. This is an idea from a Seeking SRE book that I love to reference—I think it's, like, the first chapter—the Chief of Netflix SRE, I think it is, he talks about this is this, solving problems is this thing of relaying context, establishing context—and he focused a lot less on the technology side, a lot more of the human side, and brings in, like, “The technology can help this because it can give you a little bit better insight of how to communicate context, but context is valuable, but you're still going to have to do some talking at the end of the day and establish these human relationships.” And I think that technology can help with a very specific class of insight or context issues, but I would like to reemphasize that is a very specific class, and very specific sort, and most of the human problems we're trying to solve the technology don't fall in there.Corey: I think that's probably a great place for us to call it an episode. I really appreciate the way you view these things. I think that you are one of the most empathetic people that I find myself talking to on an ongoing basis. If people want to learn more, where's the best place to find you?Sean: You can find me on Twitter at S-C—underscore—code, capital U, capital M. That's probably the best place to find me. I'm most frequently on there.Corey: We will, of course, include links to that in the [show notes 00:32:37].Sean: And then, of course, my LinkedIn is not a bad place to reach out. So, you can probably find me there, Sean Corbett, working at TheZebra. And as always, you can reach me at scorbett@thezebra.com. That is my work email; feel free to email me there if you have any questions.Corey: And we will, of course, put links to all of that in the [show notes 00:33:00]. Sean, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. I really appreciate it.Sean: Thank you.Corey: Sean Corbett, Senior Software Development Engineer in Test at TheZebra—because there's only one. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry ranting comment about how absolutely code speaks, and it is the ultimate arbiter of truth, and oh wait, what's that the FBI is at the door make some inquiries about your recent online behavior.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

The Elixir Outlaws now have a Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/user?u=5332239). If you're enjoying the show then please consider throwing a few bucks our way to help us pay for the costs for the show. Elixir Outlaws, 01/19/2021 On today's episode of the Elixir Outlaws, Sean Cribbs and Amos will talk about WASM (Web assembly) to implement some core parts of the app and discuss the server-side too. Rusts for loop syntax is sugar for iterators, says Sean. So, you can also sort of do method chaining type thing in rust. There is an interesting proposal on the Elixir form for loops. Episode Highlights FOR loops are not loops, they are a special form in the compiler, basically a macro with special privileges that generates some code, says Sean. As per Sean, if you have a lead, then you have for loop variable, and you have to return a two-two pole that has the accumulator as the second, or if you don't, then it is just the accumulator that becomes quite confusing. Amos says that when one uses MapReduce and has FOR loop and you want to step through something and maybe at the same time get an account and a sum, and you want to adjust the current values, then we are getting three things out in adjustment and then two other data points. It is hard to step away from an imperative mindset when you have done it forever and adding imperative things back into the language is going to make it even harder for people to step outside of that imperative mindset, says Amos. People use Monads to write things that look more imperative because it is easier for us to think that way sometimes, and it's going to create less maintainable code. OCaml is very much like in the same syntactical flavor as Haskell. But it doesn't have that whole lazy evaluation thing that gets so confusing at times, and it also has the much simpler type of system. Sean had tried hard to encourage his coworkers to use things like in the lists module or use list comprehensions or use fold wherever they could. But some people liked making software recursive functions that had a bunch of arguments to them. In MapReduce there is a trailing option you can put on for loops. It is like reducing given initial value of the accumulator and then you match the accumulator coming in. Using ENUM reduce, there are some tactical forms that represent something, and special form will generate, but they are not things in themselves. The things that are browser based we can't rewrite completely in Rust. There is always going to be JavaScript at some level. Sean has seen attempts where people want to have JavaScript running the same code on the front end as in the back end. In graphic production, there are many things about memory allocators, but these are all sorts of things that we might have to think about with rust when we are trying to implement. 3 Key Points With MapReduce in the ENUM module, you can do something on each element of the collection, but you are also collecting something about the entire collection as you flow through, says Sean. The flipside of list comprehension is that you can only do so many things in the right side of the comprehension. It may be explicit what you were returning from expression because the entire expression is inside the list brackets. The biggest thing that Amos have ever had to deal with when working on stuff on the front end or on edge computing is if you don't control the resource at the endpoint, it may be the slowest thing ever, and it may not work that well. Tweetable Quotes “I am not against pipes, and you can write non-imperative code with pipes, but it looks imperative.” – Amos “In FOR loop, FOR is an expression that returns a value. You can choose to ignore that value that's returned, but it returns a value, usually a list.” – Sean “You can have only one let, which is the other thing that's a little bit surprising. It works in if statements.” – Sean “Being able to have code on the back end, you control the hardware and the performance.” – Amos “The book Kill it with fire I wish I had picked up a year ago because the author worked for US digital service, updating mainframe applications, and there's a lot of sage advice in that book.” - Sean Resources Mentioned: Podcast Editing Elixir Outlaws: Website

Sean McCabe is the founder and CEO of seanwes media, and Daily Content Machine. Sean is a prolific and successful creator, author, and influencer. His course, Learn Lettering, made $80,000 in the first 24 hours. For nearly a decade his podcast, blog, and courses have helped creators grow their brands, content, and skill sets.Sean's website is a treasure trove of courses and resources for anyone looking for business knowledge and creative support. Sean's book, Overlap, shows creators how to turn their passion into a successful business while working a full-time job. His podcast includes almost 500 episodes on content creation and entrepreneurship. His latest venture, Daily Content Machine, turns creators' best content into clippable moments they can share across their social media accounts.I talk with Sean about what it's like being a successful creator. We talk about growing your audience and connecting with them. We cover how to learn new skills fast, and about developing a growth mindset. We also talk about managing stress as a founder, how to handle burnout, and much more.In this episode, you'll learn: Why good writing is the foundation of great content How to connect better with your audience Leveraging short-form content to grow your brand Pricing at full value without feeling guilty How to avoid burnout, and what to do if you're already there Links & Resources Sean McCabe on The Nathan Barry Show episode 003 Craft + Commerce conference ConvertKit Enough Ryan Holiday James Clear Marie Forleo Ramit Sethi Sean McCabe's Links Follow Sean on Twitter Check out Sean on Instagram Sean's website Daily Content Machine Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Sean:If you are a founder, you should be in therapy. Full-stop. You need a therapist. I thought I didn't. I had a great upbringing. I'm all good. Everything's healthy. I don't have any problems. The problem was I didn't know the problems that I had. I didn't realize what I was stuffing down. I didn't realize what I was avoiding.There is so much to unpack that you don't know you need to unpack.[00:00:30] Nathan:In this episode I talk to my friend, Sean McCabe. We've known each other for seven years now. It's been a long time. We've been in a mastermind group together. He's actually been on the show before. Sean is a wildly talented designer. He got his start hand-lettering.I think last time he was on the show, years ago, we were talking about that aspect of his business and how he built this substantial course business. Selling courses on hand-lettering, on marketing, on writing. He's spoken at our conference Craft + Commerce, all kinds of things. Sean is one of the most prolific creators that I've ever known.It's also super fun that he's a friend and lives right here in town. We just have a great conversation. We talk about how you create content, which is one of those things that it's not even how you create content, it's why. Where that comes from. The internal drive in what you use. Where you choose to have as a source of fuel and energy to put into that creative output.How some sources are really good and productive, and others can be kind of like a house of cards, and it can be harmful. We also talk about scaling teams as a creator. How do you know when to build out a team around your business? He's done that two different ways. So I get to ask him about some of the things he's learned and applied differently.I'm going to stop there. There's a lot of good stuff. So with that, let's dive in.Sean. Welcome to the show.[00:01:59] Sean:Hey, Nathan, just saw you recently. We were playing volleyball, or something.[00:02:03] Nathan:Or something, like two days ago. You moved to my city. It's kind of…[00:02:08] Sean:Yeah. It's horrible. It's a terrible place. Boise. Don't move to Idaho.[00:02:15] Nathan:You mean Iowa? Boise, Iowa.[00:02:17] Sean:Iowa. Yeah. Don't, yeah. Did I do okay?[00:02:21] Nathan:Yeah. That's exactly what you're supposed to say. If you Google something about Boise, Google has the accordion of extra questions, or things you might want to know. One of them is, “Does Boise smell?” and it's just like auto complaints in there.And I was like, what is up with that? I clicked on it, and it's this satirical article that has 12 reasons you shouldn't move to Boise. One of them is the city dump is right in the middle of the city. Another one is like that the Ebola outbreak hasn't been fully contained yet.So it's not really safe. I think there was something about lava. Anyway, it's just an article about all the reasons to not move to Boise. So I think you're right in line.[00:03:08] Sean:Stay, away. That's what they tell me to say.[00:03:11] Nathan:Yes, but if someone were to ignore that and move to Boise, they could come to our weekly volleyball game on Wednesday nights.[00:03:19] Sean:It's casual. It's open.[00:03:21] Nathan:Let's try it. Yeah. It's been so fun having you and Laci here. It's also been fun because you started a new company. Your company is producing and editing and creating all the clips for this podcast. So, connections on so many levels.[00:03:37] Sean:Yeah. We produce this show, like the video show, the audio show, and then find clips and make those clips for social media. It's been great. We love this show. Our team's favorite content. So, I'm a little biased, but it's fun to be on. Because my team's going to work on this.[00:03:58] Nathan:Yeah, exactly. I made sure to spell your name correctly in the setup, and I know they'll get it all.I wanted to ask what sparked—like maybe first give a summary of Daily Content Machine, since that's what you're spending nearly all of your time on. More than a normal amount of time on. So, what sparked it, and what is it?[00:04:19] Sean:Fun fact. This is not the first time I've been on the show. The last time was episode three, 2,624 days ago.[00:04:30] Nathan:Give or take[00:04:32] Sean:I was doing different stuff then. It's been a crazy journey. Right now the newest iteration is an agency.We produce video clips. We turn long form video shows. If you have a video podcast or other kind of long form video content, we found that the hardest part is finding all the good moments in there, and turning those into short clips. That's what we do. I designed it for myself, really.I wanted it to be where you just show up, you record, and, everything just happens? What is your experience, Nathan, with having a video and audio podcasts made, and clips and all that published? What do you, what's your involvement.[00:05:14] Nathan:Yeah. So I think about who I want on the show, I email them and say, will you come on the show? And then I talked to them for an hour, and then I read no, either way. I don't even do that. Yep. That's my full involvement. And what happens is then really what I see is when the show comes out, which I don't touch anything from that moment on. I actually probably notice the show coming out like, oh yeah, that's the episode that we post this week. Cause we have a three week delay on our, production schedule. And so I noticed like, oh yeah, I had a David Perell on the show when I get the Twitter notification of like, David, Perell just retweeted you.And I'm like, oh, what did oh, right. Yeah. Because his episode came out and then every, I mean, David was especially generous. Right. But every clip that week seven in a row, he retweeted and posted to his, you know, hundreds of thousands of Twitter followers. Right. Cause it makes him look really good. It's clips of him delivering these, you know, soundbites of genius, perfectly format.And he's like great retweet share with my audience. I think that one, I picked up like hundreds of new Twitter followers, just, you know, maybe more just from, from, that. So it's a, it's a great experience. The side that I haven't done as much with that I really want to. and you and I talked about this a lot when we. Like early days of Daily Content Machine and what could it be? And, and then, getting my show set up on it is the transcripts in the show notes that you all do. cause first you found the most interesting points of the show and then second there's text versions of all of that. And then they're all like neatly edited and, and everything.And so,[00:07:01] Sean:A lot of re-purposing options.[00:07:04] Nathan:Yeah, so like if you ask the same question or a similar question, like, Hey, how'd you grow from a thousand subscribers to 10,000. Tell me about that process. If you ask that consistently, which I'm not great about asking the same questions consistently, but then over the course of 20, 30 episodes, you have this great library of answers to that question and you could make like compile it all, write some narrative and it's like, oh, there's an ebook that would be 15 pages long and could be a free lead magnet or a giveaway or anything else. It's just a total by-product of the podcast and Daily Content Machine. So I'm a huge fan. That's my experience.[00:07:42] Sean:Well, it's great to hear. yeah, we wanted to make it, I wanted to make it, so I just show up. I record myself doing a podcast with the camera on, and then I walk away. Like I don't have to, the footage sinks. It goes to the team. They produce it. They made me look good. They make me sound good. They find all of the best things. I said, things my guests said, they think about my target audience. What are their struggles? What are their goals? What do they want, what do they need? How would they search for it? How would they say it themselves? And they work together to come up with good titles for them, then produce it, flawless captions, you know, do the research, how's the guests build their name.How does their company name capitalize? Like make sure it's, it's all polished and then publish it everywhere. So I just show up once a week for an hour and record, and then I get to be everywhere every day. That's that's at least the goal. And I'm hearing you say like one of the benefits, but one of the benefits of finding clips out of your long form shows to post on social media is you give your guests something to share.And there's kind of two, two ways of approaching podcasts. And one is kind of the old school way, you know, People used to blog and the used to subscribe to RSS feeds and like, you know, that's how they consumed their content. And definitely you still want to build your own platform, have a website, have a blog, you know, definitely have an email newsletter on ConvertKit but now we're, we're posting Twitter threads. We're posting more content natively and people are consuming more natively on the platforms. So there's the old idea of, I have a podcast, here's a link, go listen to my podcast, go watch my podcast, go watch my video shifting from that to, Hey, why don't we deliver the best moments of the show?Because people are consuming short form content, and that's how they're evaluating whether they want to subscribe, whether they want to spend an hour listening in depth to that interview. We're giving them all of these entrance points and just providing value natively on the platform. Instead of asking them to go off the platform and interrupt their experience, it's here you go.Here's some value here's where you can get more.And, and that that's such a great way to. Bring new listeners on as well as to give the guests something to share, because think about the experience between a guest, being told like, Hey, your episodes out, will you, will you share a link to it? And they're like, Hey, I was on a show, go listen to the show.It's such a great interview. You know, we, we do it. We want to help out that, that person with the podcast. But imagine if the best moments that, where you said that the smartest things with all of your filler words remove and your tangents remove was tweeted, and there's a video right there. All you have to do is hit retweet.It's free content for you. It looks good. But then also for you as the show host, it promotes your show and gives you a new awesome.[00:10:28] Nathan:The other thing in it, like the retweet is fantastic, but a lot of people want that as original content on their social channel. And so having like the, the deliverable that I get from you all is, is. Yeah, it just shows up in Dropbox of here's all the videos for all the platforms and everything, you know, from my archives and all that.And I've sent those on to the guests when they're like, Hey, can I post this? Not every tweet. Like I want to post it with my own, title or tweaks on that. And so I can just share that whole Dropbox folder and they'll, they'll go find the exact thing they want to share and, and use it in their own softens.Like, yes, absolutely. Because the pre-roll or like the, or the post roll on that video is like, go subscribe to item newsletters. It's like, yes, please.[00:11:14] Sean:And it's not like Nathan, that you would have trouble getting guests, but if one had trouble getting guests for their show, or you want to get someone that's like really big, really busy, they get all kinds of requests all the time. Well, imagine if they're evaluating between these different shows, you know what, what's the audience size?What am I going to get out of it? You know, especially if you don't have millions of downloads on your podcast. Well, if you're providing these additional assets, like, Hey, we're going to make clips of this. You're going to get content out of this. It can help people make that decision to come onto your show as opposed to maybe another.[00:11:46] Nathan:Yeah, totally. I want to go, so somebody different directions. This is, we talked about an agency and the business that you're starting. I have a question that I've kind of asked you one-on-one sometimes. And I want to know why build a business with a team and like build this X scale of business rather than go the indie creative route.Right? Because if we want to, if you wanted to say independent, no team, you could probably make a business doing $250,000 a year. Work on it, maybe 20 hours a week, something like that, you know, hanging out in the studio, you'd still have your podcast. You could sit down and like, you're one of the most prolific writers I've ever met. so you could do a bunch of those, those things. And yet you keep trying to do and succeeding in doing these much harder businesses of building a team. And I have to know why.[00:12:39] Sean:Nathan, I don't know. I don't know why. I kind of know why, uh it's it's like it's going to get deep. I mean, it, it probably really goes back to childhood and being, being the oldest of 13 kids feeling like. I don't know if my parents are watching, but like, I felt this, this pressure to be successful, to be a good example, to be, to be a leader, you know, like to be productive.And, you know, I'm working through a lot of that stuff in therapy, like learning, like where did my motivations come from? And like, you know, it is this healthy because, you know, you know, my, my background of extreme workaholism for like 10 years, like, Nope, no joke. It was really bad. Like 16 hour days, seven days a week for 10 years, like all I did was work and like that's, that's my tendency.And I think something beautiful came out of that, which is this sabbaticals idea where since 2014 now I've taken off every seventh week as a sabbatical. So I work six weeks and I, I take off a week and we do that with our team and all of our team members. I paid them to take off sabbaticals and it's just been beautiful.The heartbeat of the company. And like, it's been really good for me as well in terms of, you know, burnout prevention and just unlocking my best ideas, but that's, that's my tendency. And, you know, th there's, there's all kinds of reasons. And, you know, there there's messages that we hear that maybe were said or implicit, you know, growing up that we internalize.And so I think, honestly, Nathan it's, it's probably just like chasing, like, I'm going to be dead honest, like, like it's, it's just like, I think of your post that post that you titled about enough, you know, and, you know, thinking through it, like, like if I were to just think of a number, you know, it's like, no, that's not enough, you know, and I know that's not healthy.So like, yeah, I could totally, I could totally do the solo thing. I could totally make 600. Work part-time, have less stress and maybe I should, you know, maybe I will eventually, but there's something in me that wants to build something bigger, but at the same time, it's just so much fun. Get it, like, I just love processes and systems and like, you know, building things that can scale.And so, yeah, it's.[00:15:08] Nathan:Well, let's lean into it more because I have the same thing on two different sides. Like I made the same leap from a solar creator to having a team. and there's sometimes I miss aspects of the solo creator thing. Like there's a level of simplicity and like, I look at somebody's product launch or something, and it does $25,000 or $50,000.And I'm like, oh, I remember when that amount of money was substantial in that it moved the needle for the business and like, and drove real profits. Now, like 25 or $50,000 gets eaten up by that much of expenses, like immediately, you know, cause the, the machine is just so much, so much bigger. And so I have the same thing of, of pushing for more and trying to figure out what. Like, what is that balance? And, and, yeah, I guess, how do you think about the balance between gratitude and enough and drive and ambition?[00:16:08] Sean:Yeah, that is a great question. It is. It is a balance. And as someone who has a tendency towards all or nothing thinking like, I'm, I just get obsessed. Like if I'm, if I'm about something like, I'm just all in, or I don't care at all. Like I'm really not in between. And that I think is a double-edged sword.Like it's a reason for my success, but it's also a reason for all of my downfalls and like, you know, going years without exercising and losing relationships and friendships, because I was so consumed by what I was building, you know, it is very much a double-edged sword. And so I think the answer is balance, you know, in what you're saying, w what do you, what do I think about the balance?I think it is a balance. It has to be, you have to be operating from a place of enough and then have things that are pulling you forward. You know, something that you're working towards having goals I think is healthy. You know, it's. Something that gets you out of bed in the morning. You're excited about what you're doing.You have this vision for where you're going, but it's operating from a healthy place of, I'm not doing this to fill a void in my soul. Right? Like I'm not doing this because I believe I'm not enough because I believe I'm not worthy of something. But, but because I know, yes, I matter I'm worthy. I'm important.And I'm excited. Like, I think that's the, I'm not saying I'm even there. I just think that's the balance to strike[00:17:34] Nathan:Yeah. I think you're right in this. It's interesting of the things that you can do in your, I guess, life, maybe the creative Dr.. I think there's a tendency of using that insecurity to drive creative success that can work really, really well for an amount of time. Like if you need to finish a book, grow your audience to a thousand subscribers, you know, like accomplish some specific goal.And he used the chip on your shoulder and the feeling of like, this person doesn't believe in me and that like triggers those deep insecurities on one hand, it's wildly effective and on the other, it can be super destructive and it's such a weird balance and place to sit in.[00:18:21] Sean:Yeah, a double-edged sword, for sure. Like it can, it can be what helps you succeed? And it can be your downfall. So you have to wield it wisely. unintentional illiteration you ha you have to be careful with that because it's so easy to just get consumed by it, to drown in it, to let this, you know, whatever it is, this, this, this drive, this motivation, the chip on the shoulder, whatever it is to let it take you to a place where you're just like, along for the ride, you know, on a wave, going somewhere on a, on a, you know, a tube floating down the river, right.You're just being taken somewhere, but are you being taken where you wanna go?[00:19:05] Nathan:Well, yeah. And then realizing, like, it might feel like you are up into a point, but then I guess if you're not aware of it and you're not in control of it, then you'll get to the point where the thing that you were trying to succeed, that the book launch, you know, hitting $10,000 in sales or whatever else, like that's not going to have any of the satisfaction and.[00:19:25] Sean:If I can take an opportunity here just to speak very directly to a point. If you are a founder, you should be in therapy. Full-stop like you, you need a therapist. I thought I didn't. I was like, I had a great upbringing. I'm all good. You know, everything's healthy. I don't have any problems. The problem was, I didn't know the problems that I had.I didn't realize what I was stuffing down. I didn't realize what I was avoiding. There's so much stress, you know, being a founder or even any, any C level executive in a company, like there's just so much going on, and you're responsible for so many things it affects your personal life. It affects your relationships.It affects how you see yourself. There is so much to unpack that you don't know, you need to unpack. And there's probably also stuff that, you know, you need to unpack. and Maybe you don't want to, but I went my entire life until the past year. Never going into therapy, never went to therapy. I'm like, yeah, that's great.You know, if you have some serious problems or a really bad childhood or whatever, like yeah. That's, you know, I support, it like positive, you know, like golf clap and I'm like, oh my gosh since I've been going on. I'm like I didn't know why I was doing the things I was doing, what my reasons were, what my motivations were, the ways that it was unhealthy to me, the way that it was affecting my relationships.So I just want to encourage everyone to go to therapy. I promise it's going to be beneficial[00:20:53] Nathan:Yeah.I cannot echo that enough. I've had the same experience and just having someone to talk through whatever's going on in your life, whatever, like even just interesting observations. When someone said this, I reacted like that. And that doesn't quite add up. Like, can we spend some time digging into that kind of, you know, and you realize that like, oh, that wasn't, that wasn't a normal, like healthy reaction.And it had nothing to do with what the person said or who they are or anything like that. I had to do it. This other thing, the other thing that I think is interesting about therapy is when you're following people online, you're partially following them for the advice and what they can do for you and all of that.But I think the most interesting creators to follow are the ones who are on a journey and they bring their audience, their fans, along that journey with them. And a lot of people are on a really shallow journey or at least what they put out online is a really shallow journey of like a, I'm trying to grow a business from X to Y I'm trying to accomplish this thing.And it's like, Like, I'm happy for you. There's like tips and tactics that you use along the way. And that's moderately interesting, but I think if you're willing to dive in on therapy and why you do, or you make the decisions that you do and what really drives things, it makes for as much deeper journey, that's a lot more interesting to follow. And all of a sudden the person that you followed for like learning how to do Facebook ads is talking about not only that, but the sense of gratitude that they were able to find in the accomplishments that they made or how they help people in this way or other things that's like a really authentic connection.And I think that, even though like growing a more successful business is not the goal of therapy and, and all of that. Like, it has that as a by-product.[00:22:42] Sean:It does. It definitely does. Although I'm, I definitely look at things the way that you're saying, which is like, what is. Productive output of doing this thing. And it's like, yeah, that's why I need to be in therapy to understand why I apply that lens to absolutely everything. but I I've found it immensely helpful.I would say I would echo what you're saying. in terms of sharing your journey, both the ups and the downs. I think that the highs of your journey are only as high as the lowest that you share, because otherwise it's just kind of it's, it's flat, you know, there's nothing to compare to like th th in the hero's-journey-sense you know, we we're rooting for the underdog who is going through challenges, and then we're celebrating with them when they have the wins.If you know, if you're not sharing the, the, the low points, it's not as relatable. Now that doesn't mean you have to share everything you're going through. You don't, you know, you can keep some things, you can keep everything personal. I'm just saying, if you have the courage to share what you're going to find is that you're not alone.You're not the only person going through these things. You're not the only person feeling these things. And sometimes the biggest failures or, or the things that, that hurt the most or the most difficult to go through when you share those, those can actually resonate the most. That can be where your, your community really steps up.And you, you feel that, more than any other time.[00:24:07] Nathan:Yeah. I think that, like I wrote this article a few years ago, titled endure long enough to get noticed, and it was just actually wrote it, it was off the cuff. I was on a plane just like needed to get something out that week. And it was an idea about serum on my head and I wrote, wrote it out, send it off.And, just the replies from it, because it took a more personal angle and it was talking about some of the struggles and a bunch of the replies were like, oh, that's exactly what I needed in this moment. Like, I was about ready to give up on this thing, you know? And, and that was that bit of encouragement. It ends up being this thing that feeds both ways. If you're able to take care of your audience and then if you let them, your audience can take care of you of saying like, oh, that that was really, really, meaningful.[00:24:49] Sean:Can I turn it around on you for just a second and, and ask, I, I know Nathan, you've been writing recently, you're on a bit of a streak and for those. Following your journey for a long time. They know you've, you've gone on streaks for periods of time. You made an app to log those things. We're talking about this recently.And I was just curious, what, what made you start writing again? And it may be, if you can touch on like the identity piece that you were sharing with me.[00:25:17] Nathan:Yeah.So most good things that have come in my business. Many of them, at least for a whole period of time, he came from writing. I wrote a thousand words a day for over 600 days in a row. And like, that was. Multiple books, a 20,000 subscriber audience, like just a whole bunch of things so I can work it from and everything else. And I've, I've tried to restart that habit a handful of times since then. And yeah, you were asking the other day, I'm trying to think, where are we out of the brewery? Maybe? I don't know.[00:25:51] Sean:Yeah. Something like.[00:25:51] Nathan:Well, I've all something. And you're just asking like, Hey, you're restarting that what what's driving that. And the thing that came to, I actually came to it in a coaching therapy conversation was like, I'm a writer. That's who I am. You know, it's part of my identity and yes, I'm also a, a creator and a startup founder and CEO and whatever else, but like, realizing that. I'm most at home when I'm writing, that's not what I'm doing. Writing is my full-time thing. And like, here's the cadence that I put out books, you know, obvious thing of like Ryan holiday, he's super prolific, like a book or two a year, you know?I'm not a writer in that way, but I, I have things to say and, words have an impact on people in the act of writing has such an impact on me that I realized that I feel somewhat of this void if I don't exercise that muscle and stay consistent of not just like teaching and sharing, but also taking these unformed thoughts that bounce around in my head and it, and like being forced to put them out in an essay that is actually coherent and backs up its points and like, Yeah, it makes it clear.So anyway, that's the, that's why I'm writing again. And so far it's been quite enjoyable. I'm only on, I think, 20 days in a row of writing, writing every day, but it's coming along now. I have to look. 21 today will be 22.[00:27:19] Sean:Nice. Yeah. Right. Writing is so great for clarifying thinking. And I love the, the identity piece. It's like, I'm a writer, you know, that's what I do. And I think it's interesting to think about whether it's kind of chicken and the egg, right. Maybe, maybe James clear would, would disagree, but like, does it start with a belief that you're a writer and therefore you write, or is it the act of writing that makes you a writer?And if you, if you aren't writing, then you're not.[00:27:50] Nathan:Yeah. I wrote something recently and maybe it's a quote from somebody of, if you want to be the noun and you have to do the verb, you know, and so we're looking for, how do I become a writer? How do I become a painter? How do I become a musician An artist, any of these things? And it's like, if you want to be a writer?Yyou have to write, you know, like, and I think we, we get so caught up in the end state that we start to lose track of the, the verb, the thing of like writers, write painters, paint, photographers, take photos, you know? And so if you're not seeing progress in that area, then it's like, well, are you actually doing the verb?And yeah, that plays a lot into identity and, and everything else.[00:28:37] Sean:I like what James, James clear says about like casting a vote for the person you want to[00:28:43] Nathan:Yeah, I think I referenced James on. So it's the, I reference you probably every fourth episode. And then James, maybe at like, just on alternating ones.So the thing that I quote you on all the time is the show up every day for two years, like I always had create every day as a poster on my wall, and I really liked the for two years, angle. And so I I'd love for you to share where does the for two years part come from and why, why that long? Why not for two months or two decades or something else?[00:29:16] Sean:Right. It really, the whole show up every day for two years, idea came from me, drawing letters, hand lettering. You know, you think of the Coca-Cola logo. That's not a font. That's, you know, customer. That's what I would do is draw letters. Like, like what you have behind your head, that type of style of lettering.And I just enjoyed doing that and I, it wasn't a job or anything, and I really didn't pursue it seriously for a long time, even though I enjoyed it as a kid, because I thought I could never make a living at this, you know? And it's that like productivity filter again, what can I be successful at? You know, as opposed to like, Hey, what do I enjoy?You know? And, it took an artist telling me, Hey, if you enjoy it, just create. because cause you enjoy doing it. Just create. I was like, yeah, I don't know why I needed that permission, but I did. And I just started creating and I was creating for me, like, because I loved it. And I was sharing on Instagram and Twitter and places like that, the drawings I was making, but nobody really cared or noticed for the first two years.And it, it, it, that was okay with me because I was doing it for myself. I loved the process. I love the act of. But somewhere right around two years, it was just this inflection point. It's kinda like you say, you know, like do it until you're noticed, right. And people started asking for custom commissions, do you have posters?Do you have t-shirts? And the reason I recommend that people show up every day for two years is it's not going to happen overnight. You know, hopefully in that time you find the reason for yourself that you're showing up. and the two years part is arbitrary for some people within eight months, they're on the map and people notice their work and maybe they could quit their job or, or whatever.Right. But two years is really just to give people a mark, you know, to, to work towards. by that time they figure out like, oh, it's not actually about two years. It's about showing up every day.[00:31:16] Nathan:Yeah. And a lot of what I like about two years is it since your time horizon correctly. and it helps you measure your like past efforts. I think about, you know, if you've thought about starting a, like learning a musical instrument or starting a blog or any of those things, you're like, eh, I tried that before, you know, and you're like, yeah, I showed up most days kind of for two months, maybe, you know, like when you look back and you analyze it, you're like, oh, I didn't show up every day for two years. And there's also sort of this implicit, I guess conversation you have with yourself of like, if I do this, will I get the results that I want? And cause the, the most frustrating thing would be to put in the effort and to not get the results and how the outcome you're. Like, I tried it for so long and I didn't get there. And so I believe that if you're doing something like creating consistently showing up every day, writing every day for two years and you're publishing it and you're learning from what you, you know, the results you try and consistently to get better, you almost can't lose. Like, I don't know of examples of people.Like no one has come to me. I actually emailed this to my whole list and said, like, what is something that you've done every day for two years, that didn't work. And people came back to me with story after story of things that they thought would be that. And then it like started working a year or year and a half in, or at some point in there because it's really hard to fail when you're willing to show up consistently for a long period of time.[00:32:54] Sean:And I think there's a point of clarification there kind of a nuanced discussion where some people might say, well, you know, where where's, where's the other end of the spectrum, where you're just continually doing a thing that doesn't work, you know, doing the same thing and expecting different results.And I don't think that's what we're talking about here. Like when we say show up every day, Showing up everyday to your craft, you know, for yourself to better yourself, whether that's writing or drawing or working on your business. This doesn't mean never course-correcting, this doesn't mean adapting or adjusting to find product market fit.We're talking about showing up for yourself. This doesn't mean even posting every day. It's not, it's really not for others. Like share what you want. If you want to tweet every day, if you want to blog or post your art every day, go for it. I actually tried that and, you know, it was pretty exhausting and that's part of why I made Daily Content Machine.I was like, how about I show up one hour a week and you turn that into Daily Content for me. but still on all the other days, I want to show up for myself. And, and often for me, it starts with writing as well. I think it all starts with writing, whether it's a business idea or a course or a book or content like writing is just the seed of all of that.So I like writing, not because I. It was born a rider or anything. I just see results from it. So for me, it's showing up in writing, even if I'm not posting that, or I'm not posting it now, you know, it's just for me.[00:34:19] Nathan:Yeah. And that's an important point because a lot of the time my writing is just chipping away at some bigger thing. Like some of the long essays that I've written have been written over the course of three or four months, you know, it's not like I got it together and like published it and it was ready to go.It was like an ongoing thing.What, like, what are some of your other writing habits? Because you're someone who has written a ton, I've seen you consistently write like 4,000 words a day for an entire month and stuff like that. yeah. When someone asks you, how do I become a better writer? How do I write consistently any of that? What are some of your tips?[00:34:55] Sean:Yeah. I'll tell you how not to do it, which is how I've done it, which is back to our earlier discussion. Just kind of all or nothing. my first book I wrote in 14 days, 75, 80,000 words, and my, my second book, which I still haven't edited and published. I was like, I want to show people that things take, as long as the amount of time you give them, how long does it take to write a book a year, 10 years a month?You know, two weeks, I was like, I'm going to try and write a hundred thousand words in a single day. So I live streamed it, and my idea was to speak it and have it dictated, right. Have it transcribed. I made it to 55,000 words. And these are like, it's, it's all you, you can find it. it's, it's coherent words like this.Isn't just feel like, like the book was in my head. I made it to 55,000. My voice was going and I'm like, I think I've got most of the book. I'm not going to kill my voice. And that's, as far as I made it. So I failed on the goal, but still got 55,000 words. But then for the next, like three, three or six months or something I hardly wrote.Cause I was just like, oh yeah, you know, look what I did. You know, I wrote all those words and it's like, no, that's not the right way to do it. Like I actually, I think there was a point to what I was doing and it was, it was a fun stunt or whatever, but I kind of regret that, you know, I wish I just stuck to, you know, you had that, that idea of like write a thousand words a day and this is something I would share with people as like an idea for starting out, Hey, try and read a thousand words a day.And I found out people would get stuck on that. They'd be like, I wrote 830, 2 words. I'm a failure. I'm just gonna give up and wait until the weekend when I have more time. And it's like, no, that's not the point. The point is to just show up and, and put some words there. So maybe for you, it's a time like write for 20 minutes, write for 15 minutes, write three sentence.And maybe you keep going, you know, but like put in the reps, show up, you know, put on the running shoes and go out the front door. If you don't run the five miles, that's fine. You know, walk around the block, but show up. And so I I've done it both ways and I don't prefer the stunt way where I write 50,000 words in a day.I prefer the, the, the ones where I write 400 words every single day, that week[00:37:06] Nathan:Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. And I've, I've, had that a lot of times where I was like, oh, I can't write today because I, I wouldn't have time to hit 500 or a thousand words. And so that's something I'm doing differently this time around of like, look even a hundred or 200 is a, is a success, any amount of, of doing the reps as good.[00:37:26] Sean:I want to lean in on that idea of defining success as less. What I mean by defining success as less is, and this is especially helpful. If you're going through a hard time, if you're feeling burned out, if you're feeling depressed, w with remote work, growing and growing, you know, w we're commuting less, we have more time.We have more flexibility in our day, but we, we tend to fill that time with just more and more work. And it's really easy to get to the point where you feel overloaded. And you, you go into your day just too ambitious thinking. You can get too many things done and ending with disappointment. Like I didn't get all the things done, you know, and you're just on this perpetual cycle of disappointment every day, setting yourself up for disappointment, trying to do too much.And instead of defining success as less. And so if you're, if you're feeling depressed, I mean, this gets as small as today as a success. If you brush your teeth, like today's a success. If you shower, today's a success. If you walk around just your block, that's it not run a mile, you know, not come up with a new business plan or outline a whole course or something.Less defined success is less, when I would do podcasts, I, you know, a podcast is what an hour, maybe two hours or something like that. But it takes a lot of energy. If you've never been on a podcast, you know, it takes energy to record. And I would feel bad after I record a podcast, not getting as much done afterward, you know, like, oh, I didn't get that much done.I mean, I recorded a podcast, but then I was supposed to have this and this and this, and just beat myself up. And I realized like, Hey, that, that podcast I recorded, that's going to be heard by thousands of people. That's really high leverage work. And I brought my best self and I really showed up and I really delivered.And that was good work. And you know what, on days where I have a podcast, I'm going to define that day as a success. If I show up and record that podcast, anything else is a bonus. And, and you just make that smaller and smaller and smaller until it's accessible to you until it's attainable for you. So maybe it's like write three sentences.If you show up at all to your writing app and write three sentences, the days of success. And what you'll find is more often than. You'll keep going.[00:39:34] Nathan:I think that's so important in, and I imagine most creators have been in that position of no motivation feeling depressed. And then you beat yourself up because you didn't get anything done, like deriving yourself worth. This kind of goes back to the earlier conversation, driving your self worth from what you create can both be very powerful in that it can feed itself really well.And then it is also incredibly fragile. And I've gotten to that point where if you end up in the downward spiral version of that, then like not creating, not accomplishing something. Leads you to feel more upset and depressed and so on. And it like when it works, it works well. And when it stops working, it fails spectacularly.And I think you're right. That the only way out of it is to lower that bar of success to something crazy low that you can't consistently. And then, you know, gradually you're way out of it from there.[00:40:34] Sean:Yeah, you, you are more than what you do. You are more than what you create. You are more than what you produce. You are more than your job. You are not your company. You're not the money in the bank. You're not how much you make each month. You're not the decline in revenue from this month compared to last month.Like you're none of those things. You're a person you're a human outside of that with independent work. And that's such a hard thing to internalize, but, but if you can, I mean, you, you, you just become impervious to all the things that can come against you. You know, you just become unstoppable. Nothing's going to phase you.Like you can embrace the highs and embrace the lows and just ride the rollercoaster. And I'm just describing all the things that I don't know how to do, but I'm working.[00:41:20] Nathan:Yeah. It's all the things that we're trying to, like lean in on and remind ourselves of, in those, in those tough times, I have a friend who has his game, that he played his, a few little kids, and his sort of a little game that he plays with them over time. And he like in a playful, joking voice, he asked them like, oh, what do you need to do to be worthy of love? And it's like turned into the thing for they, like, they're like nothing, you know? And he's very purposefully trying to counteract this idea of like, oh, I need to earn worthiness. I need to earn love. If, if I like show up for my parents in this way, if I take care of my family in that way, if I'm not a burden on other people, then like, Then I'll be okay and I'll be worthy of love and all of that.And so he's just playing it, like making it a playful thing with his kids from a very young age to basically instill this idea of like, you are a complete whole person and you can't, like earn worthiness of love and you also can't lose it.[00:42:19] Sean:I'm just thinking of the titles for this episode, that my team's going to come up with, like how to be a founder worthy of love.[00:42:26] Nathan:Yes, exactly.[00:42:28] Sean:Don't use that title.[00:42:31] Nathan:Okay. But I want to go, you've built a, a team twice, for first for Sean West, as a business, you know, of the course and content, community business. And then now for Daily Content, I want to get into, like what you like, how you built the team differently between those two times and what you learned. but before we do that, let's talk about as a solo creator. When you're thinking about making that leap to something where you need a team to build it to the next level, maybe you're at a hundred thousand dollars a year in sales, and you're looking at maybe the roommate's eighties and the Marie Forleo's of the world where like a few, rungs above you on the same ladder.And you're like, okay, that would require a team. What are some of the things that you think people should consider in that leap?[00:43:22] Sean:My biggest mistake was applying the right advice at the wrong time.Like I'm not a, I'm not a reckless person. Like I'm going to do my research and learn and like get all the smart people's advice. And so every, every big mistake I've made was as a result of applying great advice from smart people at the wrong time.And so it's, and, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone really, really talk about this. There's a lot of people slinging advice who should really be asking questions, but at the same time, you can't even blame them. Cause like Twitter, there's no room for nuance. Like you tweet fortune cookie tweets, you know, with, with advice and like, hope that people apply it at the right time.Like, that's just kind of how it goes. But like, you know, to, to your point of like looking to other people and what they've built and like, oh, that's what I would need and stuff, you know, I, I heard things. Delegate, you know, you don't want superhero syndrome. Like you need to empower other people and delegate the things you're not good at delegate the things you don't like to do, delegate the things you're good at.And you like to do, but you shouldn't do because you're the founder and you need the vision, you know, like, so it's like delegate, delegate. And so, okay. All right. Hire. This is going to sound really stupid, but no one told me that you need to make sure the thing that you're doing is working before you hire, because hiring is scaling, which means to make something bigger.And if you've got a bucket at the beach and the bucket has holes in it, and you scale that bucket, you have a bigger bucket with holes. Like th th that's not better. That's like, do you, do you like the stressful problems you have now? How would you like problems with another zero on that? Like you have $30,000 problems.Do you want $300,000 a month problems? Like, you know, it's not fun. so nobody's told me that and looking back, it's like, it's so dumb. Like, do you think making this big. Automatically makes it better. It's just going to automatically make the problems go away. No, you need to, you need to scale. What's working, do more of what works and, and, and slow down and hold off and make sure the thing you have is working before you grow it.I don't know if I answered the question, but I'm just speaking to my past self.[00:45:32] Nathan:You totally did. So what are the things that, like, how does that play out as you're building Daily Content Machine, versus the previous team?[00:45:40] Sean:The difference here is my, my previous business required me to function and I hired people around me, you know, to support me. So I wasn't doing all the work, but I had to show up. I had to, you know, whatever I had to write, I, you know, come up with an email or blog or. Or live stream or podcast or whatever.It was like, it was built around me and there's nothing wrong with that. Like, that's totally fine. You can build a business where you do what you love and you're supported by your team. I just found that you can, you can do something that you love and burnout, like after you do that for years and years and years, it's not even that I don't like podcasting or I don't like writing cause I actually do what it ultimately came down to is that I don't like having to do it.And if I don't, if I don't, then everything falls apart. And so with this new business, the agency, it was like, okay, like the first thing I want to build from is this can't require me to function. It has to be built in a way that the team can run things where it's like, I don't have to be on the strategy call.I don't have to do the marketing. Like my face isn't necessarily the reason people are coming to. and that, that really shifted how we build things.[00:47:01] Nathan:Yeah. I mean, that, that's a huge thing. And like, I imagine you defining all of these roles and early on, you might be doing a bunch of them to test if it works and to build out the systems, but none of them are like defined by your own unique skillset. Like you actually I've loved watching your systems and the, as you've shown me behind the scenes, because you're breaking it down and you don't need one person who is a fantastic video editor and copywriter and project manager talking about that, actually, because I think so often we're trying to find the employee or the team member. That's like the, the unicorn perfect fit. And you've made a system that doesn't require.[00:47:42] Sean:Exactly. And we did start out that way, where, when, when I was initially hiring for, you know, this Daily Content Machine service that we have, what's involved in that process and we talked. Clients and prospects all the time that like the Mo one of the most common things they try to do is either build a team in-house that can find all the best moments scrubbed through the long form content, edit it.Well, you know, titles, research, all of that, the build that team in house, or hire a freelancer and the problems with either of those is like what I've identified as it comes down to the person doing, doing content repurposing well requires nine key skills among them like copywriting and marketing and design and animation and rendering, and like, you know, SEO and all of that stuff.And I'm not saying there's, there's no one out there with all those skills, but, but those people are doing their own thing most of the time,[00:48:38] Nathan:I think I'm a pretty good Jack of all trades. And I think if we get to five of those, probably maybe on a[00:48:45] Sean:You could probably do most, I can do most too, but I don't scale, you know, so I'm trying to, I'm trying to scale me. and the first thing I tried to do was hire someone who could do all the things like, okay, you need to be able to, and that very quickly was not the way that was not going to work.So we realized we need specialists. We need people who are really good writers. We need people who are really good animators. People who are good editors, people who are a good quality assurance, reviewers, people who are good project managers, you know, all of that. And that's, that's what probably sets us apart.You know, the most unique thing is like, we learn about your audience and we find all of the moments and like teaching people, I've talked to people who have their own teams, or they're trying to build teams for doing this. And that's the hardest part is how do you teach someone how to find those moments?Like video editing is commoditized. You can find a video editor anywhere, but what happens when you try and get a freelancer who can just chop up clips and animate it and put a slap a title on it? Yeah. Th they're not, they don't care about the quality. They're not capitalizing the book titles and the company names and spelling the guests.Right. You know, and the titles of the clips, that's like half of it, you know, like half of it is the title, because that's going to determine whether someone sticks around and clicks or watches or whatever, and they're not thinking the right way, or they're not finding the right moments. And so the person who's outsourcing, they're trying to go from, I've been doing this myself.I've been editing my own video. I've been scrubbing through my own long form content to now, okay, you have got this freelancer, but now you're a project manager and a quality assurance reviewer because their work isn't up to par. And so I have people asking me like, how do you teach people how to do this?Well, how to find those moments, what's going to provide value to the audience. How do you title it all? and that part, I'm not giving away because that's, that's our home.[00:50:33] Nathan:Yeah. And that, that makes sense. So you described Daily Content Machine as an agency and it is, but I was like, great. You're an agency. Here's my other idea for a show where. Like a dream it up and produce it. Or actually we build my website for me, like your, your designers on all that.Right. And your answer would be like a flattened and I think that's really important for the business. So can you talk about the difference between the agency that you're running in productized services and how you think about making that scale versus like a, an agency of, Hey, this is our hourly rate.These are the projects we're best at, but we'll kind of take on anything.[00:51:11] Sean:So maybe I'll I'll I'll title the clip of this moment, how here's, how you will try it like this. Here's how you create a six figure agency. And for. It is by saying no to almost everything and getting really specific about what you offer and to whom. So my previous, the previous iteration of my business, I was out of a scale of one to ten I was working at a level 11 effort, you know, to bring in six figures with this version of the business. It's like a one or two in terms of, you know, getting people to give you vast amounts of money. And the difference is in what you're providing and, and to whom. So you've kind of got this, this matrix of products or services that either make money for your clients, or they're just nice to have.And then on the people side, you have, it's a generalization, but people who have money and people who don't, and I was always playing on hard mode, you know, I was trying to sell like kind of more premium stuff to people who didn't have money. And I'm like, you know, feeling bad about not being able to give stuff to the people who don't have money.And it's like, you know, what a really great way to do this would be to provide premium services that make money for people who have. So I decided I'm going to start with six to seven figure business owners. What is it that they need? And what is it that, that I'm good at, you know, core competencies. And that's where we came up with this idea.And the hardest part has been not giving into shiny object syndrome. All of the things that we could do, all of the services that I want to build. And it's like, no, there's so much more juice in this one thing. If we just stick to this and just become the best at finding, identifying, and producing and distributing clips from long form content and just be really, really good at that.There's enough complexity in that, you know, and just see that as the game, like, how can we get really good at this? How can we sell this better? How can we deliver it better? How can we increase the quality and just getting really focused and aligning what you offer the value of that to the people you're offering it to within four weeks with just a page and a form.This was a six figure book.[00:53:16] Nathan:When I think about the price of the offering. So I think I have. for what I pay for and Daily Content Machine paying about $5,000 a month. Is that right? I think somewhere in there.[00:53:28] Sean:So, what we didn't say is you, you kind of talked me into, adding another service, which is, we also do the video and audio show notes, transcript, like podcast production piece. So like, we'll produce the full thing. You just show up and record sync the footage to us. We'll produce the show and we'll make the clips.That's actually been a really nice bundle, but I'm like, okay, that's it, that's it. You know? So you kind of have some extra services in there.[00:53:53] Nathan:Yeah.To be clear, you don't want to let your friends, even if they live in the same town, as you convince you to like change your agency,[00:54:00] Sean:Nathan's very convincing.[00:54:03] Nathan:I distinctly remember. I even invited you over for dinner and convinced you of it,[00:54:07] Sean:How am I supposed to say no,[00:54:08] Nathan:Exactly.[00:54:10] Sean:You made an offer. I couldn't refuse.[00:54:13] Nathan:But in that, so you're talking about like what you're selling to someone who might not be able to afford it, or like you might make a course that you charge $5,000 for that is absolutely worth every bit of that when in the right person's hand and apply it in the right way. But you're going to have a bunch of people trying to buy it, who like, aren't that person who's going to get the leverage to make it a clear 10 X value or something like that. And so you might have in this position where someone's like, oh, $5,000 is expensive. Should I buy it? I don't know. And you're like, honestly for you, I don't know if you should buy it.Like you're not in the target market and that's, that's $5,000 one time in the case of this. And this agency, this productized service, I guess, $5,000 a month. And so actually two of those clients, and you've got a six figure a year agency business. And it's just interesting. The thing that you said made me really drove home the point of, there's not necessarily a correlation between effort and income and, and effort and output. And so you found a model and kept, kept tweaking until you found one where it was like, look, there's a ton of work that goes into this, obviously. And there's a bunch of really smart people working on editing and transcribing and captioning and everything in the show. but like, it, it doesn't have to be crazy complicated, whereas some of the other business models that you and I have both tried have been way more effort for way less.[00:55:40] Sean:Yeah. And what can really hold you back is not realizing who you're trying to market to. And. getting Talked down in your prices by accidentally catering to the wrong people. So like people who can't afford your services, you could get on call consultation calls with them. And they're just like, I just don't have this much money and can you do discounts?And you, you almost start to feel bad. Like, you know, how can I charge this much? I must be charging way too much. And it's like, or maybe you're serving the wrong customers. Like, you know, when you talk to the right people, that may actually be really cheap. I remember when I started designing logos, this is like a decade ago.My first logo, I charged like 150 And then, once I sold that I got enough confidence to charge 300. And then I was like, I, you know what, instead of doubling again, I'm going to charge $750[00:56:30] Nathan:Ooh.[00:56:31] Sean:I did that. And you know, I'm like slowly building on my portfolio and I got up to like, $1,500 and clients were paying that and right around there, you start to get people resisting.Now you've got a price with a comma and it gives people. pause And they're like, can you come down? Can you do a little bit cheaper? And it's so tempting. You, you want to do that because you want the job. You, you want them to be happy. It could be a good portfolio item. And I remember just kind of fast forwarding through this, but like, you know, just mindset shifts and stuff.Eventually I got to the point where there was this startup out of San Francisco they wanted a logo. And I was like, this would be really valuable for this company, you know? And I somehow mustered up the courage to charge $4,000. And I found out later from a friend of a friend, you know, from someone that worked there that they thought I was like super cheap because someone else they knew or some other agency was going to charge $25,000 And I was like, wow, like I'm over here. Just like feeling bad about my prices, thinking I'm going so big. And really I'm. I was just serving the wrong code.[00:57:34] Nathan:Yeah. And it's so interesting because the person who's only able to pay $500 or only thinks the logo is worth $500. It's not that they're wrong or they're devaluing your service or something like that. It's that maybe it's for a side project or it's for a business that just got off the ground or any of that. And so it's not worth getting offended over or something like that. It's like, we just don't have product market fit, like product customer fit. It's not a thing here, you know, and my services are better for, you know, bigger, more established companies. So the saying no to, to, services, occasionally getting talked into specific services by your somewhat annoying local friends. but then where does it go from here as far as what are you looking to, to, to add more clients and, and keep scaling and growing?[00:58:30] Sean:Yeah. That's what we're trying to figure out right now is it's always tricky. It's a blessing and a curse when you have an audience, because it can kind of create false product market fit. Like you, you think you have something and then you exhaust your audience and then you're like, oh, like I kinda need to figure this out.You know, that's like, we're experiencing that right now because like, I was getting like 40% close rates on consultation calls on sales calls, and now we're not, and it's. Oh, no, like what's happening. And it's like, well, I think those people probably knew me for several years, you know? And then like, there's just all this trust and still Nathan we're a year in and we don't have, like, we don't have a proper website for, for the agency.It's like a page with a form. That's it? There's no, there's no examples. There's no case studies. There's no portfolio item and we've made it this far. but you know, when people don't know you, they need that social proof and they want the examples and they're looking for past versions of success. And like the sales cycle is a little bit longer.And so that's where we're at right now is like figuring out kind of like Mar marketing channel fit. And I know well enough to know, like it's better to, and back to right advice, wrong time. it's a good idea to be everywhere if you can, you know, cause different people consume on different platforms.Even if you don't use Instagram. Other people do, even if you don't use YouTube, other people do it's. Beyond LinkedIn, even if you don't, you know, that like there's, there's some, there's some sound reasoning to that at the same time. You don't want to try to do all of that all at once, you know, and, and spread yourself too thin, like pick one channel, do one channel.Well, and when you've got that down and it's easy and you have systems and it's not taking too much time, then expand to another channel with the goal of like, ultimately diversifying kind of like investments. You don't want to just diversify all at once. You know, like, like try some things out, you know, focus on one thing at a time, see what works for us.I, at least I know that much. And so it's like, okay, I'm not trying to do every version of marketing, you know, like, oh, do we do affiliates? Do we do ads? You know, do we do content? Do we do cold outreach? You know? I'm trying not to do everything at once. So we're kind of dabbling in one thing at a time and seeing what fits.[01:00:48] Nathan:So how many clients do you have now for the agency that are the consistent tenders?[01:00:53] Sean:Not a lot. It's still very small. And we've had like, I it's under a dozen cause like some, we had like several accounts, like not renew and stuff. So it's still very small. And for three or four months, I stopped marketing and sales completely because I did not want to break this thing with scale because I notice things in operation that were the operations that were not going well.I'm like, this is going to be really bad. Like if we just sign more clients, it's going to be really bad. So, I had clients pay upfront for like six months or 12 months of service, which kind of gave us time to focus on operations. And now everything's humming along smoothly. Like the systems we've built can support like dozens or hundreds of accounts, even like, we don't need it right now, but it'll support where we want to go.But it's still a very, it's actually very small, like again done, like almost no marketing a year end, still don't have a website. Like it's pretty much just been all internal focused.[01:01:52] N

Sean: So what are some of the lessons that you took away and that experience where you don't like the team, but you produce magic when you're on stage? Jason: Actually, that is an interesting question because number one is the team is together because we played well together. Not because we liked each other. So actually being on stage was the time that everybody kind of came together in a cohesive unit. And I think we got off stage and sulk in our corner. So the point of the team was the music. It wasn't the rest of the stuff. And when we were creating, we would argue, you know, writing songs, people argue all the time. And it was pretty, pretty boring a lot of the time. And if you ever got ill, it was really difficult to deal with. And one thing I learned there is, however tired I am, however pissed off I am with everybody else in the band. When it comes to saying I have two hours and I need to perform for two hours as I need to look happy for two hours, I need to perform, do a show for four or 500 people who have come to see us. However tired I am, however much I don't want to do it, how much I've argued with the people in the band, I can do it and it looks good. And that's the point from my perspective is you can always push through if you've got the willpower to do so. And a lot of that has to do with adrenaline. You get a little bit of adrenaline running and you can push through something for a couple of hours. And my way of thinking of that was saying - "yeah, I can always do it whatever happens" and you know, 600 times managed to, I mean, most of the time I actually really wanted to do it, but every now and then, you know, you're out a little or annoyed, you don't, but you can still get through. Sean: You know, It's something that I think I have to think a lot about because teams today, we don't operate like that. And you mentioned that you like to work with people you'd like, and who like you otherwise as leaders, we both know it's not sustainable. And when we're on stage, on-air, when in our business, we're not playing as well as we want to be like how you guys play on stage. Jason: Yeah, I think kind of the music, the creative side, and the fact that you've got a crowd of people who are getting really into it, means that you think. Well, actually what I think doesn't matter. I'm not here for me. I'm here for them, and therefore I will perform, and I will forget that maybe we had an argument just before we came on stage. If you search the barking dogs, the ace of spades, you'll see a video of us playing and you'll see that you know, it made a pretty good show. I'm very proud of what we did. And the other thing, of course, is even if you're underperforming a little bit, the other members of the team, the group can pull you up. With music, it's the whole thing, or it's nothing. So if I'm not up to or on form, somebody else will pull through for me as it were. So, you know, I kind of said, well, I can always pull through, but obviously I need help. And the team helps, the group helps the other people in the team-group help. And I think that thing is it's always for the audience and it's not for yourself. Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/leadershipstack Join our community and ask questions here: from.sean.si/discord Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/leadershipstack

Sean: You mentioned the second pillar of your book is vision. I'm sure that the four pillars are interconnected together. I want to go deeper, dive into vision. Why is vision so important? How does it relate to your company's culture? And as a founder, this is one of the things that just flies over the heads of founders, right? We're just looking for the next meal. Vision is not something that we're thinking about. If you ask a new CEO founder, He would probably say, oh, the vision is to close more deals. The vision is to make more sales. The vision is to not go bankrupt. So why is vision so important and what kind of vision are we talking about here? Tom: Well, look, you know, vision is, yeah. If somebody tells you a vision is not to go broke, then you probably will go broke. You look, vision is your long-term "why”. Why do you want to do this? Right? And there's some great examples out there, and there's some terrible examples out there. And if you steer away from your vision maybe 15, 20, 25 years down the road like for example, Coda. All of a sudden you're out of business because you lost the vision of where you want to be and why you want to do it. So great companies have visions that don't really change over time. So the one I use all in one, I like to use as an example is Coca-Cola and I have to be careful because some people make a distinction between what is a mission statement and what is a vision? I try not to get too technical on that. I say, look, you're going to have a statement that defines your future, and then, so your long-term future. And it doesn't change in two years. It doesn't change in five years. It doesn't change in 20 years. So Coca-Cola is "we refresh the world." If you pick up a annual statement from 50 years ago, they'll say the same thing. So it's really, really important because if you have a simple vision statement and I emphasize a simple and clear vision statement, your employees can buy into that, your suppliers can buy into that, your customers can buy into that. Everybody kind of understands it and say, okay, that makes sense. I'm on board or I'm not on board, you know, either way. But I can tell you, you know, Coca Cola, if you go ever go into a boardroom and say, yeah, I got this great new product that I think we should do. And it's not refreshing. They'll probably chase you out. Right? So it's all about refreshment and, it's all about global distribution, global implications. You know, if you look at a can of Coca Cola, it doesn't matter if you're in Singapore. If you're in Saudi Arabia in Dubai, if you're in Kiev Ukraine, if you're in, you know, Chicago, it's, it looks the same. And if you crank it open, it's going to taste the same. Right? It's refreshing. That's what they're all about. And when Elon Musk, colonizes, Mars, I guarantee you Coca-Cola is going to be up there, right? It goes it's. Now we refresh the world. What's the definition of world. Well, right now it's earth, but Hey, when we are Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/leadershipstack Join our community and ask questions here: from.sean.si/discord Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/leadershipstack

Sean: We have one from Erika. Do you have any tips on how to build an effective team? A team that does not need supervision and consistently delivers great results. Wouldn't we all want to have that kind of team? Apple: First off, thank you, Erika, for your question. I believe it first applies to who you let in your team. So it's very important how you filter the good from the rotten eggs out there. Secondly also is, well, I do this, I do this quite often. Before I allow one team member to continue on the process of being hired, I pray. I pray for this person first if he or she is really a good fit for the company. I look at three C's. That's chemistry, competence, and culture. So with these three, if it's a good fit, then he or she gets to the next stage or next phase. Sean: You have to build it from zero, meaning, you hire them one by one. And when you hire, you have to make sure that the people you hire are the people you want. They're self-motivated. They have their own initiative to get stuff done. They have initiative to improve things, innovate, improve the process, and deliver results. These are things that a lot of business owners love to hear because there are people who are the wrong kinds of hire. It's either you hire them and they're the wrong fit, or they're not in the right position, they're not in the right place on the bus. And what they're doing is something that drains them instead of energizes them. And if they are drained, then you will have a team full of people who are slow moving or non-moving, and they become a source of frustration rather than a source of joy. So you have to build that kind of team one by one. That's my answer to you. And I have a lot of episodes about how to hire the right people. Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/leadershipstack Join our community and ask questions here: from.sean.si/discord Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/leadershipstack

About SeanSean Kilgore is an Architect at Twilio, where he draws boxes, lighthouses and soapboxes. In Sean's spare time, he enjoys reading, walking, gaming, and a well-made drink.Links: Twilio: https://www.twilio.com/ Silvia Botros's Twitter: https://twitter.com/dbsmasher Sean's Twitter: https://twitter.com/log1kal TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at the Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Your company might be stuck in the middle of a DevOps revolution without even realizing it. Lucky you! Does your company culture discourage risk? Are you willing to admit it? Does your team have clear responsibilities? Depends on who you ask. Are you struggling to get buy in on DevOps practices? Well, download the 2021 State of DevOps report brought to you annually by Puppet since 2011 to explore the trends and blockers keeping evolution firms stuck in the middle of their DevOps evolution. Because they fail to evolve or die like dinosaurs. The significance of organizational buy in, and oh it is significant indeed, and why team identities and interaction models matter. Not to mention weither the use of automation and the cloud translate to DevOps success. All that and more awaits you. Visit: www.puppet.com to download your copy of the report now!Corey: Up next we've got the latest hits from Veem. Its climbing charts everywhere and soon its going to climb right into your heart. Here it is!Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. I'm joined this week by Sean Kilgore who's an architect at a small company called Twilio. Sean, welcome to the show.Sean: Corey, it's a pleasure to be here.Corey: It really is. You're one of those fun people that I always mean to catch up with and really do a deep dive in, but we keep passing like ships in the night. And in fact, I want to go back to more or less what is pretty damn close to your first real job in technology. You were a network administrator at Lutheran High School in Orange, California.Sean: I was.Corey: And at that same time, I was a network administrator down the street at Chapman University, also in Orange, California. And despite that, we have traveled in many of the same circles since, but we have never met in person despite copious opportunities to do so.Sean: That is amazing.Corey: Talking to you is like looking into a funhouse mirror of what would it have been like if I could, you know, hold down a job, and was actually good at things. It's really fun. Apparently, I'd be able to grow a better beard.Sean: I don't know about that. My beard is pretty patchy.Corey: Yeah, I look like an angry 14-year-old trying to prove a point to Mommy and Daddy. But that's not really the direction that we need to take this in today. And you've done a lot of stuff that aligns with things that are near and dear to my heart. For the last—what is it now?—six years and change? Seven years and change? You've been at SendGrid, then Twilio through acquisition?Sean: Mm-hm.Corey: And you have done basically every operations-looking job at that company. You've had a bunch of titles. You wound up going from DevOps engineer to a team lead, then to a senior DevOps engineer again, and you call—you voluntarily move back to an individual contributor role. Let's start there. What was management like?Sean: The management was interesting. My first go at that, I had no idea what I was doing, and so I didn't know how to ask for the help that I needed. And so my wife and I refer to that time as the time that I played a lot of video games. Just, I wasn't prepared for the emotional outlay that managing humans costs. And so I would end up spending my nights just playing video games trying to unwind and unpack from all that.I've managed twice, now. The second time was—it went much better. I knew more of what I was doing, I had more support. The manager of the team that had left, I had worked with that team very closely in the past, I'd been part of it. And so my whole purpose there was to make sure that we didn't lose anybody after that until we found a new manager.And that actually worked out pretty well. I had to have some really difficult conversations with some people along the way, but they all stayed, they all told me that they really enjoyed me managing them. And I've had people ask me to manage them again after that, which was super bonkers.Corey: It's always flattering when you have an impact as a manager and people seek you out to work with you again. I dabbled in management as well; no one ever asked me to do it twice, and I have effectively avoided managing people here at The Duckbill Group, just because my belief of what a good manager is—and I think it aligns with what you've already said—requires a certain selflessness and ability to focus on others and grow them, whereas my role here is very much as face of the company, and it's about me. That's not a recipe for a successful outcome for managing people and not having them rage-quit.Sean: Definitely.Corey: One thing that I find is interesting about management, the higher you rise in an organization, it's counterintuitive but the more responsibility you get, but the less you can directly affect yourself. Your entire world becomes about effectively delegating work to others and about influence. In your case now, you are an architect, which means different things at different companies. So, I'm not entirely sure I know what it means at Twilio. So first, what is an architect at Twilio? And where does your responsibility start and stop, I guess is where I want to go, there?Sean: So, architecture at Twilio is kind of different. Some of the architects that I've worked with in the past is the ‘I design everything, and then engineers go and build the thing that I designed.'Corey: Oh, yes. The enterprise architect approach where I'm going to sit in my ivory tower and dispatch, effectively, winged monkeys to implement things that I don't fully understand, but I have the flashy title. You're saying that's not what it is?Sean: There's a fine distinction here because I think that some of the people I work with would definitely say that I am up in my ivory tower. It is more about—if I'm looking five years out—what capabilities my teams need to be able to provide to execute against a business strategy. That landscape is going to change immensely along the way, and so my job isn't to say, “We're going to use Kubernetes because that's what we need to do five years out.” It happens to be what I'm saying right now, and I'm sure we're going to go into that, Corey, but it's less about this is how each of these things should be strung together to achieve that goal and more direction setting. So, I worked on something that I call the ‘Lighthouse,' and it's a vision of the future of where we want to go but the caveat is that if you actually go to the Lighthouse, it means you hit the rocks.It's describing what I call the ‘Bay of Appropriate Futures,' and you want to land somewhere in that Bay, but it's not going to be the thing I wrote down five years before we get there. And so it's much more of a technical leadership position, trying to help other technologists make good technology decisions. And so it's more about making sure that all of the right questions get asked, not having all the right answers. That's the difference between some architects that I've worked with in the past.Corey: And one of the challenges in that role is that you're not managing people directly. So, what that means is, you are, on some level, not doing a lot of the hands-on keyboard implementation work yourself and, unless I dramatically misunderstand your corporate culture, you're not empowered to unilaterally fire people, which means that you can only really lead via example and influence. Tell me about that.Sean: When people ask me if they want to be architects, I ask them if they can influence without authority, or if that's even interesting to them. That is definitely the thing. And so when it comes down to, “Man, I really wish I could fire this person.” A, that never happens. But, B, it's definitely about modeling behaviors. And there's a bit of management here in that making expectations clear of senior engineers is part of my job, and helping them also be examples for other engineers is definitely a thing I get graded on.Corey: Influence without authority is sort of the definitional characteristic of being a consultant. It turns out, you can't even force anything; it has to be the strength of your ideas combined, in some shops, and I admit I have a bit of a somewhat cynical view on this, but also the ability for the client to commit to their sunk-cost fallacy of, “Well, we paid a lot of money to hear this advice, we should probably do something with it.” And there's always a story of making sure that you're serving the organization with which you work, well. But when you can only influence rather than direct, it becomes a much more nuanced thing, and I feel like the single differentiator between success and failure in that role is, fundamentally, empathy. Am I wrong on that?Sean: Not at all. When I'm working with a very in-the-code engineer who comes to me and is trying to convince their team that they should do something, one of the things that's a stumbling block for them is that they don't realize that other people need to be influenced in ways that might be different than the way that they're influenced. So, as an example, I work with a team of very senior people; I know that some people will respond well, if I site Accelerate, for example. And some people want to hear, “Well, Google does this, so it's obvious that we should do that.” And trying to thread that needle with everyone in a way that gets everyone on board in the best way for all of us, when you can do that, you can be an architect.Corey: Some weeks, I feel like I'm closer to architect than I do others. It seems that the idea now—solutions architect being a job role that a lot of companies have they hurl out into the universe—is in many ways vastly misunderstood. You want to talk about some kind of architecture story, where I'm going to go ahead and design an architecture that solves some business problem on a whiteboard. That's not hard to do.The hard part is then controlling for constraints such as, “Yeah, we already have a thing that doesn't look anything like that, and we want to get it to that point. And oh, by the way, 18 months of downtime while we do that is not acceptable.” Nothing is ever truly greenfield. And adapting to constraints, and making compromises, and being realistic seems to separate the folks who are good at that from the folks who are playacting.Sean: There's another thing in there where people who've worked on the same thing for a long time sometimes have a problem seeing where you could go. And so the constraints there can be really useful in designing things. A lot of people think that greenfield is awesome, but greenfield just means the possible outcomes are the entire universe. I like working in constraints, essentially.Corey: So, I want to talk to you a little bit about your tenure at Twilio, where you started off at SendGrid and then there was an acquisition, and everyone I know got super-quiet for a while because it turns out when there's a pending acquisition, talking to people about it is frowned upon, and that goes doubly so in the context of someone who basically shitposts for a living. And I get that; I respect confidentiality, but I also don't want people to jeopardize their own positions. So, it's one of those, “Yeah, whatever you're comfortable telling me, or not, is fine.” So, we didn't talk for a while. And then the acquisition happened, and now you're there. And you've been there at Twilio for a couple of years or so and haven't rage-quit, so apparently, it's worked. What was the transition like?Sean: The transition was really interesting. A lot of people were telling me that acquisitions were universally horrible. And that's not how it worked. This is the first acquisition I've been through, so I have no context. People I trust told me that this one went well.So, in my role as architect, this acquisition was kind of interesting because SendGrid had a very robust, and we've done architecture for years. And Twilio's architecture was a little bit different. It was more like, “There are some really, really senior people at Twilio who have seen some things, and you should probably ask them their opinion on stuff.” But there wasn't really, like, an architecture review process. There was definitely, “A you need to write down a bunch of stuff and get some people to look at it,” but it wasn't a, you need to get approved by your local architect or a group of architects.Part of that is to provide visibility across the org so that we're not duplicating work and stuff. But Twilio basically adopted SendGrid's architecture process, but it grew 10x. So, at SendGrid, we had, I think, six architects. At Twilio, we have, like, 40 now, so not quite 10x. But trying to copy and paste that process was kind of rough.We're still, kind of, making that better. And then there were a couple things—as the acquired company, you kind of expect, I don't know, maybe some housecleaning to happen. And that isn't what happened. We saw a lot of like really senior leaders move into positions at Twilio of leadership. So, on day one, I think SendGrid's sales leader became the sales leader for all of Twilio.And that sounded—I haven't done this before, but it sounded like that's not normal. And that's happened in a couple different spots. It's been pretty neat. And when I think about the acquisition, not just of acquiring another channel for Twilio, but kind of doing an acqui-hire of a bunch of key positions, that was a pretty valuable one.Corey: Let's talk about one aspect of working at Twilio that I profoundly envy you for, which is working with one of the greatest people in the world: Silvia. Let's talk about Silvia.Sean: She interviewed me at SendGrid. She's been here almost a year longer than I have, and it's been such a joy to work with her. Not just because everything gets Botros'ed around her, and so we have our own built-in chaos monkeys, but also, there's no one that cares more about making sure that what teams are building won't come back and bite the team later. She's worked with, I think, maybe a 10th of the company now—and at Twilio, that's a lot of teams—trying to just help them do better and make sure that the stuff that they're building is not going to page them all the time, is actually going to serve the customer in ways that isn't surprising to the customer. I can probably talk for half an hour about my appreciation for Silvia.Corey: Well, she was a great guest in the early days of this podcast. Silvia Botros is phenomenal. She has the Twitter handle of @dbsmasher so she's my default go-to on misusing things as databases. And she also was just one of the most genuinely kind people I know.She also has an aura effect, where she is basically a walking EMP, and every time someone tries to show her a piece of technology, it explodes in novel and interesting ways, which, frankly, as an acceptance gate for technology is a terrific skill set to have. Does it cause problems in the office?Sean: Not normally. It causes more problems in the office when we are actually in an office together because Silvia, maybe predictively, is also a giant klutz. And so the joke is that she also EMPs herself. In the office, she does break things, but it's never in an intended way. Or it's just like a fun, “Oh, man, the WiFi's down. It must be Silvia.”Corey: Exactly. It's always nice to have someone you can blame for these things.Sean: It's SOP.Corey: Yeah, oh, absolutely. At some point do you ever wind up missing things such as, “Oh, it's probably just Silvia. No, it was actually a problem somewhere?”Sean: So, we actually determine that Silvia's EMP works at a distance. She flew somewhere close to one of our hardware data centers, and at the time that she passed it, we had an outage. Like, the data center went dark, kind of thing. And so it still happens even if she's not around. We're pretty sure it's not a local phenomenon.Corey: So, the thing that I know is probably going to sound completely boring and ridiculous to half the audience while the other half the audience sits and listens raptly; before I started this place, I never stayed anywhere for longer than two years, because as previously disclosed in multiple directions, I am a terrible employee. First, why did you stay at the same place for as long as you have, and what's it like? And I'm really hoping you have an answer that isn't just, “Oh, I have a complete lack of ambition,” because I won't believe that for a second. But it is a tempting cop-out so let me just shut that down now.Sean: No, it's more I've been here for almost eight years now, and I've never done the same thing. The fun fact that I tell people when they onboard or I'm interviewing them is, I think I've had more titles than anyone at Twilio. I'm up to 11, I think. And so 11 titles in eight years? It hasn't been the same company.When I started, I was employee number 150. There were 80 of us when I started at SendGrid. I work at a company with 4500 people now and going through that growth, the company that I work for today, and even pre-acquisition, you would not recognize from the day I started at SendGrid. And so if I had been doing the same thing all the time, I wouldn't still be here. There was a point before we started architecture at SendGrid, I was definitely in a spot kind of a rut, like, “Cool. I can continue to do the same thing over and over,” but I felt like there wasn't a lot of growth to do.I needed to go see something else, kind of thing. I knew really well how to do our mail stuff, and I felt like I needed to broaden my horizons a bit, or I needed to level up. And at the time, the only place to go up was to management. And then we brought in a chief architect, J.R. Jasperson, and I I remember very clearly, it was like his third day or something, we had an all-company meeting—like a lunch thing—and I walked up to him and said, “You don't know this yet, but you're my new mentor because it seems like what you're talking about is really interesting to me.” And he didn't know it but the subtext there was like, “And if you don't, I'm out.”And since then, the work that I do day-to-day is completely different. Like, I work for a platform org. This platform org is 130 people right now; it spans everything from building EC2 instances to, recently, it was, like, Twilio API Edge. There's such a breadth in there that I never do the same thing every day.Corey: I really love installing, upgrading, and fixing security agents in my cloud estate! Why do I say that? Because I sell things, because I sell things for a company that deploys an agent, there's no other reason. Because let's face it. Agents can be a real headache. Well, now Orca Security gives you a single tool that detects basically every risk in your cloud environment -- and that's as easy to install and maintain as a smartphone app. It is agentless, or my intro would've gotten me into trouble here, but  it can still see deep into your AWS workloads, while guaranteeing 100% coverage. With Orca Security, there are no overlooked assets, no DevOps headaches, and believe me you will hear from those people if you cause them headaches. and no performance hits on live environments. Connect your first cloud account in minutes and see for yourself at orca.security. Thats “Orca” as in whale, “dot” security as in that things you company claims to care about but doesn't until right after it really should have.Corey: That's functionally, I think, the problem that I had in working in environments as a DevOps type because for the first three months in a job where I'm the first ops person, “Great everything's on fire.”—I'm an adrenaline junkie in that sense—“Cool. Oh wow, all these problems that I know how to fix.” And then it gets to a reasonable level of working and now it's just care and feeding of same. Okay, now I'm getting slightly bored, so let me look for other problems in other parts of the org.And that doesn't go super well when you're not welcome in those parts of the org which leads to a whole bunch of challenges I've had in my career. This is incidentally why being a consultant aligns so well with me and the way I approach things. It's cool. I'm going to come in; I'm going to fix things, and then I get to leave. On day one, we know this is a time-bound engagement and that's okay.Instead of going down the path of the lies everyone tells themselves where average tenure in this space is 18 to 24 months, but magically we're all going to lie and pretend in the interview that this is their forever job and suddenly you're going to stay here for 25 years and get a pension and a gold watch when you retire. And it's, oh wow that's amazing it sounds like everybody having these conversations wearing old-timey stovepipe hats. There's just so much that isn't realistic in those conversations. So, I talk to people who've been down those paths who've been at the same company for a decade or two, and the common failure mode there is that they have a year or so of experience that they repeat 10 or 20 times. And that's sad; people get stuck. What you say absolutely resonates with me in that every year is a different thing that you're working on. You're not doing the same thing twice. I get antsy when too many days look the same, one to the next.Sean: I definitely hear that. If my every day was, come in join a stand-up, talk about the problem that I had last week and still have today, it wouldn't work for me. I feel lucky that I work for an organization where outside input is actually requested and honored, so if I go to a team and just happened to have noticed something and say, “Hey, this right here you might want to take a look at. And I have some opinions here if you'd like to hear them.” I normally get asked for that opinion, and it normally turns out pretty good.There's definitely times where it's been, like, “No, Sean. You don't know what you're talking about.” And normally they're right. It's definitely not the same. People say you should be at a company for 18 to 24 months. And that's true if your company is totally shortchanging you. When I ask my peers at other companies about, have I gotten stiffed by staying at the same place for this long? It's definitely not. And if that wasn't true, if Twilio was holding back my compensation, maybe this would have gone a different way, but it's not what's happened.Corey: Oh, true and to be clear that is very often the biggest criticism I have of people who stay at one company for a long time. They don't realize what market rate is anymore and they find themselves in a scenario where, “Wow, I could go somewhere else and triple my salary,” which is not an exaggeration and an unpleasant discovery when people realize that they've been taken advantage of. And credit where due, I have had conversations with people at Twilio who have been there a long time. And I have never gotten the impression that that is what's going on there. Your compensation is fair. I want to be very clear here. This is not one of those, “Oh, yeah, I'm just trying to be polite because someone's being taken advantage of and doesn't even know it.” No. They're doing right by their employees. The fact that I have to call them out explicitly as an example of a rarity of a company doing right by its employees, is monstrous.Sean: It is. We've hired a few people recently where I found out that I think their pay was close to doubled just by coming here, and I just wish that it was more okay to call out their prior employees publicly and be like, “Cool. If you work for this company will probably pay you a ton more.”Corey: And that's the other side of it, too, which I did early on in my career. It's, “Oh, I'm leaving this company and screw you all.” “Well, why are you leaving?” “Oh, because I'm getting a 5% raise to change jobs.” I'm not saying that money should not factor into it, but at some point, when all is said and done at that scale, it works out to be 100 bucks a paycheck, or so, is it really worth changing for that? Maybe.If there are things you don't like about the environment, please don't let me dissuade people from interviewing for jobs. You always should be doing that, on some level, just so what the market looks like. But I'm also a big believer in, you don't need to be as mercenary as I was early on in my career. A lot of it was shaped by environments—not Chapman, I want to be clear—that were not particularly kind to staff. And that I felt taken advantage of because I was. And as a result, “Oh, screw me? Screw you.” And it became a very mercenary approach that didn't serve me well. That is now a baked-in aspect of how I view careers in some respects, and that is something of a problem that I wrestle with.Sean: The mercenary thing?Corey: Yeah. I wrestle with the mercenary thing just because when I talk to someone who's having a challenge at work, or something, my default instinctive gut reaction that I've learned to suppress is, “Oh, screw ‘em. Quit and find another job.”Sean: Ah, gotcha.Corey: That's not the most constructive way to work in the context of a company where you're building a career trajectory, and a reputation, and you've been there for five years, and maybe rage-quitting because you didn't wind up getting to pick the title of that presentation isn't the best answer. I can be remarkably petty, for the reasons I'll leave a company. But that's not constructive, and I try very hard to avoid giving that advice unnecessarily to people.Sean: It's definitely just, like, incidents, right? It's never a root cause; it's a contributing factor, and pay is just one contributing factor. I find that a lot of people, even if they're being taken advantage of compensation-wise, they won't leave unless there's something else wrong.Corey: Yeah, compensation is absolutely a symptom, and in most cases, that's not the real reason people are going to leave. I assure you, people who work at The Duckbill Group could make more money, objectively, somewhere else. But there's a question of what people value. We pay people well, but we don't offer FAANG money, with the equity upside and the rest. We're not trying to pull the Netflix and pay absolute top-of-market in all cases to all people.I would love to be able to do that; our margins don't yet support that. Thanks to our sponsors, we're going to continue to ratchet those prices way up. I kid. I kid. But there are business reasons why things are the way they are. What we do offer instead is things that contribute to a workplace we want to work at. More of us are parents than aren't.We don't expect people to work outside of business hours in almost any scenario, short of, you know, re:Invent or something. There's a very human approach to it. We're not VC-backed at all, so we don't ever have to worry about trying to sprint to hit milestones over debt as a company. We have this insane secret approach called ‘revenue' and ‘profitability' that means we can continue to iterate month to month, and as long as the trend line continues, we're happy.Sean: That kind of sustainability is awesome, and is a really good indicator that a company is going to be successful, to me. Especially smaller companies; the decision to not take VC money. And to chase sustainable revenue growth, I know everyone wants to chase the hockey sticks, but at what cost?Corey: Yeah. And I think that people put this on job-seekers way too much. I have been confronted, at one point—I will not name the company—when I was interviewing years ago, and I was asked by the hiring manager, “Well, it seems like you've done a fair bit of job-hopping in the course of your career. What's up with that?” And they pulled up my LinkedIn profile and went through it, and I said, “You realize most of those were contract gigs?” “Well, I don't kno—oh, yeah. I guess it was. Oh, that was—huh. I guess so.”So, it was a failed attempt to call bullshit on my job history. And because I don't take things like that well, I turned it around right back on him, and I said, “No, I appreciate that. Thank you for clarifying.” That's a warning sign is when I thank you for insulting me because what's coming next is always going to sting. But while we're on the topic of turnover, “Your team has lost 80% of its members in the last six months. What's going on with that? Is there a problem here that I should be aware of?” And suddenly, the back-peddling was phenomenal. I did get an offer from that company; I did not accept it.Sean: Good.Corey: You can tell a lot about a company by how they buy their people. And if you're actively being insulted or hazed in the job interview process, no. I want people who I choose not to hire, to come away from the experience feeling respected and that they enjoyed the experience to the point where they would say nice things about us if asked, or even evangelize us without ever even having to be asked. And so far, we've done that because we're very intentional on how we approach things. And man, am I tired of people doing this badly.Sean: When I interview someone, I want them to leave, and then if they don't take the job, I want it to be because it wasn't the right job for them. Or, like, the team wasn't the right fit, not because anything happened in the interview process that was a red flag. That's the worst. I want Twilio to be a spot where there are no red flags. That would be ideal.Corey: Absolutely. I think that so many folks get it wrong, where there's this idea of, “Oh, I'm going to interview you. And oh, you're an ops person. Great. I want you to implement Quicksort on the whiteboard.” And it's, “Question one: do you do that a lot here? And two: no, of course you don't because I've seen your services list. There's no rhyme or reason to the order it appears in. Maybe someone should implement Quicksort in production.”And then there's the other side, too, of, “Oh, great. There's this broad skill set across the entire space. I'm going to figure out where you're weak and then needle you on those.” I don't like hiring for absence of weakness; I like hiring for, you're really good at things we need here and you're acceptable at the things that are non-negotiable, and able to improve in areas where it becomes helpful.Sean: Yeah. The best interview process I ever had, they flew me up to San Francisco, I worked with them for a day on a real problem that they had, like, pair programming. They offered me the job—it didn't work out because I didn't want to move to San Francisco, it turned out—but that interview process was super valuable to me as the candidate because I found out exactly how a day at that job would work; what it would look like.Corey: I had a very similar experience once and the cherry on the top was they paid me a nominal contracting rate for the day—Sean: Same.Corey: —because it was touching things that they were doing. And I think that that's another anti-pattern of, that was a thing that also just happens to be a thing we're going to use in production, but we're not going to tell you that we're not going to compensate you for it. I'll work on toy problems; not production in an interview context.Sean: I wanted to circle back to one thing about leaving a company, like, rage-quitting. It's essentially—if you rage-quit because of a problem, like, a small thing, you're missing an opportunity to grow. And especially if I had one superpower, I would say that it's probably managing up. Part of this is just, I have a lot of privilege that lets me do that, but it is definitely a skill that I wish more people had for their own careers.Corey: I really do, too. We spent all this time practicing how to be a candidate in a job interview, and almost no time training people how to be a good interviewer, and what you're looking for. And you wind up with terrible things like, “I had this problem once in production that I thought was super clever, so I'm going to set it up for you and see how you would solve that problem. And if you don't follow the exact same path that I did, then we're going to go ahead and just keep shooting down anything else you suggest.” No, stop it.Sean: I do a lot of interviewing, and so I love when I learn something from a candidate because I can ask them questions that are like, “How did you figure this out? How did you even notice that this was a problem?”s and you get to go really deep in something they know, the way they know it. We used to do the, like, “Build us an LRU cache in the best big-O notation time.” And if you didn't get it, you didn't get the job, if you did it in slower than optimum time.And I remember leaving one of the interviews and doing the recap, and it was like, if anyone came to work and did this, I would be upset at them for wasting time. This is part of the standard library of all the things that we do. Why are we asking this question? I know for a while we stopped asking the question, which is great. I don't do a lot of code interviews at Twilio, so I don't know if we do something similar there, yet. I should go find out.Corey: I do not know either way, to be clear. None of the stories I'm talking about involved Twilio. Though I will say, I went on an interview years ago at SendGrid in Anaheim, and I don't know if I ever got a formal rejection or not afterwards, but regardless, they did not opt to hire me. In hindsight, good decision.Sean: I wonder if we were in the office at the same time.Corey: It would have been 2006, so I think it might have been a bit before your time.Sean: That was before my time.Corey: And very much, credit where due, I started my career in large-scale email systems, so SendGrid was one of those. Oh, I could probably apply the skill set there. The problem, of course, was that it became pretty apparent, even in those days that eventually there weren't going to be that many companies that needed that skillset. The days of an email admin in every company were drawn to a close, and it was time to evolve or die.Sean: You're welcome.Corey: Of course. And again SendGrid today, under the hood—deep under the hood—does still power Last Week in AWS. You folks send emails and get them where they need to go, for which I thank you, and the rest of the world probably does not most weeks.Sean: [laugh]. Yeah.Corey: Ugh. So, we've covered a lot of wide-ranging topics. If people want to hear more about who you are, and what you have to say, where can they find you?Sean: I'm on Twitter at @log1kal with a one and a K because I hate people who want to find me, apparently. But that's @log1kal. Twitter's probably the only thing.Corey: Excellent. We'll, of course, put a link to that in the [show notes 00:30:39]. Sean, thank you so much for speaking with me today. I really appreciate it.Sean: Thank you so much, Corey. I love having these kinds of conversations. I love that there is no plan; we're just going to have a conversation and record it. I love listening to these kinds of podcasts.Corey: Well, I like creating these kinds of podcasts because the other ones take way too much work.Sean: [laugh].Corey: Sean Kilgore, architect at Twilio. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with a comment explaining how it is almost certainly the fault of Silvia Botros's aura.Sean: [laugh].Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Sean Swarner Interesting Facts - Learn how Sean not only beat cancer twice but went on to summit Mt. Everest and the remaining 6 summits and the north and south poles. He now brings hope to all who have cancer and those who have survived cancer with his organization CancerClimber.org. I loved, loved, loved this conversation with Sean and my hope is next July 2022, I will join him to climb Mt. Kilimanjaro and add the names of my own loved ones, who have had to deal with cancer and either survived or lost their battle with this awful disease. Thanks so much for listening! Joe Sean Swarner Speaker | Author | Performance Coach Adventurer | World Record Holder Author of: Keep Climbing: How I Beat Cancer and Reached the Top of the World Website: https://www.seanswarner.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanswarner/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sean.swarner LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/seanswarner/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/seanswarner Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Ok, today, my guest is Shawn Swarner. Sean is an incredible human being, you're not going to believe the things that he has done already in his life. And I am so excited for this interview. As I was talking to Sean offline, I was explaining how the whole thought of summiting Everest is just in itself amazing. And then the way that it's been accomplished by Shaun and the adversity that he had to deal with growing up and just to to be this person that he is. So this is exciting, not just at a sports level or at a level of just doing all these amazing feats, but just just the human drive that this person has. So, Shawn, welcome to the show. Man, I am so excited to have.   Sean: I appreciate it. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to do the.   Joe: So I like to start and people that listen to my podcast hear me say this one hundred times that I like to start from the beginning. And I know you probably told the story a million times already, but I like to set a foundation of pollution is where you came from, how you grew up, the main health factors that happen early on, how you got over that and then become who you are today. So if you don't mind, if you could at least give us as much of the back on the floor is yours so as much of the back story that you want to give? I welcome it all.   Sean: I appreciate that and I'm going through my mind, and one of the things that got me through was a sense of humor, which we'll get to, but I'm assuming you probably don't want to go back. Forty six years with my mom and dad got together, then nine months later.   Joe: Yeah, that's got no so that we could start right there. That's what.   Sean: So I came into the world crying and screaming and kicking. And   Joe: There we go,   Sean: I remember it like it was yesterday.   Joe: Right.   Sean: No, I. Well, I guess my I was born and raised in Ohio, just a normal Midwest kid. I remember back in the day before toilet paper was hard to find. We would TPE the coach's house and across country in the house. And then he installed a motion sensor lights. So we had to be a little bit more careful. And I just I learned to. Do things I wasn't supposed to, but I never got caught because I learned how to not get caught. So I was a kind of a studious growing up. But everything was it was completely normal until I was in eighth grade. And I was actually I was going up for a layup and basketball things and I came down and something snapped my neck and it sounded like like, say, for Thanksgiving, you grab the chicken bone and you're pulling on the leg like the ripping the tendons in the ligaments and everything. That's that's kind of what my knee sounded like when I was hobbling over to the stage that to sit down my whole body the next day swallowed up so much. My my mom and dad couldn't even recognize their own son. So they stuck in the local hospital. Willard, Ohio, population was five thousand, I think is maybe five thousand three now. So it's not much just change. Maybe eight stoplights or something like that, but they stuck in the hospital, they started treating me for pneumonia and it's very it's very difficult to cure cancer by sucking on a nebulizer. So I wasn't getting any better. But at 13, I was thinking, well, you know, I'm going to soak up all this attention. I got the cheerleaders coming in. I got my friends coming out of balloons all over my room.   Joe: The.   Sean: It was fantastic. But I didn't know what was going on in my body, which was advanced stage four Hodgkin's lymphoma. And I remember my parents didn't tell me that I had cancer. They told me that I had Hodgkin's. And I can only imagine what they were going through when the doctor told them that I had three months to live. The doctors approach to my my parents said your first born son now has an expiration date. And no one wants to hear that, and I've heard that one of the greatest pains, pains that you can have is outliving your your son or your daughter. So I didn't want that to ever happen to my mom and dad. And I remember very vividly where I was on the bottom of the on my hands and knees in the shower three or four months into treatment. And because of the treatment, I was bald from head to toe. I was on my hands and knees sobbing, just absolutely weeping, pulling chunks of hair out of the drain so the water could go down. And I was also thinking because I was getting ready for school that day, and that's when my hair came up all in that one time in the shower. And I was thinking about what my friends may have been doing at the same time, getting ready for school the same time I was.   Sean: And they were probably worried about the latest hairstyles being popular. If things that in my mind, looking back at it now, were trivial, it meant nothing because there were nights I went to bed not knowing if I was going to wake up the next morning. I mean, can you imagine what it feels like being terrified to close your eyes and fall asleep because you don't know if you're going to wake up. And that's that's what I had to deal with as the 13 year old. So I grew up with a completely different perspective. And thanks to the miracle of modern medicine, family support, prayer just in a will to move forward. I guess if I walked out of the hospital, a hairless, happy, bloated young man and I, I went back into being a quote unquote normal teenager, I guess if there is anything that's that you can say normal for a teenager. But the remission was short lived because I was going in for a checkup for the first cancer when they found a second cancer completely unrelated to the first one. And in fact, on the apparently I'm the only person to ever had Hodgkin's and ask start. And the chances of surviving both of those illnesses is roughly the same as winning the lottery four times in a row with the same numbers.   Joe: Radical Krutch.   Sean: So I think I'm a living, breathing, walking miracle, without a doubt, and. I remember going in for a check for that first cancer in one day, they found a tumor on an X-ray. They did a needle biopsy. They removed a lymph node, put in a hip and catheter. They cracked open my ribs, took out the tumor, are put in danger and started chemotherapy less and less than one day. And they diagnosed me with a type of cancer called ASCAN sarcoma. And that's basically they gave me 14 days to live.   Joe: And this is at age 60.   Sean: 16, so 13, the first cancer, 60   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: Percent cancer, cancer, my my whole teenage years were just they were taken from me, from the cancer.   Joe: He's trying to just picture this in my brain of what happens during those years of like those prom, there's sports and it sound like you were active before 13 when you were first diagnosed. So you are definitely you look like someone that would be athletic. So you're missing all of that.   Sean: It's a green, it just makes me look like I'm.   Joe: No,   Sean: I   Joe: But.   Sean: Was I was I was incredibly athletic, and I, I think I because I was a swimmer, I started competitive swimming at maybe five or six years old. And I think I still have some records from the 11, 12 age group.   Joe: Still hold it.   Sean: Still   Joe: Wow, that is so cool.   Sean: Undefeated in the summer league, went to Nationals numerous times. I loved it, but I also think that's one of the reasons why I'm still alive, is because I looked at things differently from a competitive angle, and I pushed myself not to be the best, but I always pushed myself to be my best. And that's what I did, was going through the treatments, I I knew that when I was going through the cancer that I was going to have bad days. And I also knew I was going to have good days. So if today was a bad day, then I just I focused on tomorrow or the next day when I was going to have a good day. And I when I had those good days, I was I was truly living and learning how to be in the present moment.   Joe: Yeah, that's definitely one of the gifts that would come out of what you went through, which people struggle their whole life to eliminate the noise around them and to be present. Right. Because you literally only have this moment right now. So many people worry about what's on the schedule for tomorrow or the future or all of that. And some people even and I'm totally guilty dwell on the past. So I should have done that different. Where would I be today if I had gone left instead of right? So it's it's really hard to bring that in to be present and figure out how to do that. And I would assume that's a that's at least a good outcome of what you went through, is that it forced you to live every day the most that you could, knowing that this just this who knows what tomorrow will bring, if anything. Right.   Sean: Absolutely. I mean, one of the things that I do every morning before I even get out of bed, the instant I open my eyes in the morning, I don't I don't I never hit the snooze, because if you constantly hit the snooze over and over and over again, you're telling yourself subconsciously, I'm excited about the day. The day can wait. But if you turn it off and I actually have a smartwatch and just vibrate so it doesn't wake up my wife. So I turn I turn the alarm off and I lay there and I tell myself the past is done. There's nothing I can do about it. Tomorrow may never come, so no matter what happens today, today is the best day ever. And I have a choice, we all have a choice to make that day turn out however we want it to, and it starts with that morning intention.   Joe: Also, I don't want to get too far because I had so many questions. This is exciting. Like I said, I'm not going to let you go. So 16. So you're you were diagnosed and you're going through all of these treatments. When do you become and for lack of a better term, quote, normal where they say, OK, we've we've clobbered this thing, you're you're in remission and your hair is growing back. You're starting to feel like average every day. 16 year old, our seventh year, however long it took for you to become being normal.   Sean: That's a great question, and I was I was thinking, while you're talking and I honestly want to say that the answer is never.   Joe: Ok.   Sean: Because no one's ever had these cancers before. No one no one knows what's going to happen to me.   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: I go in once a year for a checkup and they obviously for the past 20, 30 years now, it's come back clean. So I literally see every time I go into to get my blood work done at my annual checkup, I see it as I have another year left. And I try to accomplish as much as I can in that year, so I don't think because of the way I'm looking at it, I don't think I'll ever have a normal life.   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: This is my new normal. And I've just adapted to I think because of everything I've been through, I'm comfortable with being uncomfortable. So when when things are going well for me, I'm like, oh, something's going to happen.   Joe: Yeah, so that was I was going to ask you that I just turned fifty nine and I don't envy having that fact for lack of a better term, that cloud hanging over my head, knowing that I went through something, I beat it.   Sean: The.   Joe: But there's always the chance that it'll rear its ugly head. And so people that have to live with that   Sean: And.   Joe: Sort of pressure on them, that has to take its toll. I would I would assume it has to take its toll depending on how you deal with it. Right. And with everything. When you wake up, you have the choice of saying this is going to be a great day. It's going to be a bad day. And for some reason and you can help me with this and hopefully the listeners will really heed your advice on this is why do we always choose the negative part? Like everyone, people just love to complain about how their job sucks so they don't have enough money or whatever the case might be. And if they and I listen, I've gone through my whole life having sort of this always this negative thing, like, why didn't I ever reach this goal or that goal or this accomplishment? And I'm hard on myself about it. And I also know I didn't do the work to potentially get to some of those goals. So I'm starting at this ripe old age admitting to myself, OK, you just didn't put in the time. But now I'm only in the past few months I've really shifted my frame of mind to say I literally have everything that I need know. I love my life. I I love the person that I live with. Joellen, my life partner I love. I have everything that I need. And why would I just complain all the time of all the things that I don't have? And our mutual friend David Meltzer says you literally have to get out of your own way and let the universe deliver to you the abundance that's there. And we actually get in the way of making that happen. So why don't people choose the negative? That's what I want to know.   Sean: Absolutely, and I honestly, I was thinking of a couple of things, one. We do have we have we do have a choice, and when people start to get anxious, when people start to worry about things, it's because of of two words. What if. What if this happens, what if that happens? What if this happens? What if I get cancer again? But you learn to to realize that for me, it was a it was a house of letters. It was a six letter word that that I was allowed to have power over me. So. And recently, it's funny you mention that recently you were thinking of this, that with because I'm doing the same thing recently, I'm realizing that this word cancer. Had so much control and power over me because I allowed that to happen. And then I realized, why am I freaking out over a word? I mean, don't get me wrong, I completely respect cancer and it can be deadly and it oftentimes is. But it's the word that's making me freak out when I go in for my annual checkups. It used to be smelling sailin that would make me think of all these traumatic things that happened in my past. But it doesn't mean it's going to happen again. So when I realize I'm asking myself, what if. I'm projecting into the future and I'm giving my brain permission to go crazy, to come up with any any cockamamie imaginary thing that I can come up with. So when I when I think of my my treatments or what I think of my annual checkup and I constantly, constantly ask myself, what if I realized, well, what if I get cancer, but what if I don't?   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: Perfect example.   Joe: Yep.   Sean: So I realized that the word itself means nothing. It's what I'm actually placing on that word and how I react to it. So when people hear cancer, they're like, oh, wow. But if this is what I did, I spared myself in the mirror and I said cancer about 50 times over and over and over again. And slowly it lost its power over me. And around thirty five or forty times I looked at myself laughing, what the hell this is? This is crazy. But it's lessened its power over and over and over. You just can't cancel. The more you hear about it, the more you get rid of it, you know, the less power it has over you.   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: And then why people are focused on on the negative so much. I think it's because unconsciously, people are allowing their brains to be programmed by outside sources. If you look at it, most people probably I would say 80 to 90 percent of the world, the first thing they do when they wake up, they grab their phone, they check their emails, they go on social media, whatever it might be. Either they do it before they go to the bathroom or while they're going to the bathroom. It's one of the. And what happens is if you're not paying attention to what you're consuming, because there's that old saying of you are what you eat, but in all honesty, it is you are what you consume.   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: So if people are constantly consuming this, this this false information from the media and with the media, let me turn on the news. You don't have to watch it for more than 30 seconds to realize it's going to be depressing   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: Because it's the same stuff all over and over and over again. You have to wait through, what, 60 different stories to see one positive story that takes a point zero five percent of the hour long program. So what people are doing is they're allowing their brains to be programmed by outsiders, outside sources. That outside source is just constantly bombarding their brain with negativity. However you can you have a choice to, like, wake up in the morning and have a positive affirmation, today is the best day ever. I write down my, my, my daily affirmation and I write down three things that I'm going to do and three things I'm going to try to do or and then at the end of the day, as opposed to turning on the news, I get my journal and write down five things I'm grateful for. So I'm essentially bookending my day on a positive note as opposed to, I would say, most of the world they book in their day on the negative note.   Joe: Yep.   Sean: So if you're constantly being bombarded in allowing negative thoughts into your brain, how do you think it's even possible to be positive?   Joe: Yeah, it's I don't know if you hit it on the head and it's just it's it's letting all of that stuff come in from the outside. You have a different perspective for what you went through. And and I think people just take for granted that they're alive and healthy and have a roof over their head and all of the simple things that we just don't we don't think about. And it's important to take a step back and look at that. And instead you take what if and you say, what if all of this stuff went away?   Sean: Now.   Joe: Where would I be right? Or what if all of this stuff tripled and double that? I had even more abundance because of this, this and this. But it seems like what you wish for, what you think about when people concentrate on the negative things, more of that stuff, it's just   Sean: Mike.   Joe: It's just naturally happens. And I was doing it for so long. And now that I've shifted, it's just completely changed. And it's I don't know if it's because it's so hard to understand that you can do that with your own brain and your own inner power to shift your mindset. And people, though, that's all that fufu stuff. And it's not. It's and I think that's why it's so hard to explain. It's so hard to get people to just give it a try. Just 30 days. Just think towards the most positive thing you can think of. And every day just try to eliminate as much negativity in your life will change. And   Sean: Right.   Joe: It's just really hard for people to understand, I think.   Sean: And I think that I mean, there are some there are a large percent of the population who think they're still positive when they're actually being negative to the brain and they don't even realize it. So a perfect example. You're walking down the street and you're telling yourself, don't trip, don't trip. You're going to fall on your face, but if you turn it around it from a different perspective and you tell yourself, stand tall, stand tall, walk strong. When entrepreneurs when people go into the stock market, whatever it might be, I guarantee you they don't think, oh, I don't want to lose money. No, that's state. That's that. People are thinking, I'm being positive. No, they want to make money to focus on what they want. And that's exactly what happened when I was in the hospital. The story of that 13 year old who was 60 pounds overweight in the bottom of the shower floor. Like I mentioned before, I didn't I didn't focus on not dying. I focused on living. I mean, can you imagine how it would have turned out if I kept telling myself, oh, don't die, don't die, don't die or climbing Everest. Hey, don't fall, don't fall, don't fall, don't don't stop. And same thing for runners and people doing anything athletic. I guarantee you people who are so don't stop, don't stop as opposed to make it to that spot. And then when you make it there, make it to the next spot. Same thing in life. People are saying never quit, don't quit your brain, just quit   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: As opposed to make it to that milestone, make it to the next milestone, make it to the next day. Make it to the next day. Keep pushing forward.   Joe: Yeah, that's a great point, and that's what I think really people should take away from this section of what we're talking about is that even when they talk about visualization, right, it's like you're you your body, your brain does not know whether or not you've accomplished something or not. Right. So why not tell it the best story you can write? Why not say that? I, I, I'm like, visualize you're on top of Everest. Like just visualize it until it happens. Right. It's just so you have to tell your own, your own body the best story possible. And I think that's this portion of what we're talking about should be a lesson to say your your body, your brain and your body is listening. So make sure you tell the right story. So can you take us back to your 16? You're going through all this. What's the next phase in your life?   Sean: A wild and crazy college life   Joe: Ok, where was that?   Sean: That was in Westminster College, and I think looking back at it, because my my teen years and my high school years were taken from me, have   Joe: You're going   Sean: You   Joe: To make up for   Sean: Have you ever seen a movie Animal   Joe: The   Sean: House?   Joe: Absolute.   Sean: There you go. And I was Bellucci. I had a wonderful time   Joe: Nice.   Sean: And I wouldn't change a thing. And I started off molecular bio thinking I was going to cure cancer by splicing genes. And I took organic chemistry and immunology. And it's it's pretty difficult to pass those classes when you don't open a book and study. So. So I actually switched to psychology because I was taking a an introductory psych course while I was going through the immunology class. And I really found it fascinating. And I started thinking, oh, well, maybe there's something here where I can help cancer patients and cancer survivors move on with their lives because it's not an individual disease. It affects everybody in the family thinking, OK, well, I have this great insight. Took the GRE, went to Jacksonville, Florida, to go to work on my master's and my doctorate. And then some things happen. I was working for different jobs, trying to go through my doctorate, which is just ridiculous. I mean, just to focus on education. Wow. So at some point I decided that I hadn't dealt with my own issues. Because of what I went through, I never even considered what cancer did to me and how I wanted to quit on the other end, because in college I just I left it behind. I didn't even bring it up. I mean, there I dated some girls and I was thinking, OK, well, how do I bring up that? I'm a survivor. It's not like, you know, dinner conversation. Oh, you know, how how how's your wife and how is your dinner? Oh, I had cancer. You know, he just   Joe: Yeah,   Sean: Can't do that.   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: So I was so worried about I didn't know what to do. I just I just I forgot about it. So then in grad school is thousands of miles away from Ohio. And it was the first time I actually stopped and looked myself in the mirror and ask myself those deep questions, you know, who are you? What do you want from life? What's your purpose? So I just did some deep, deep understanding of who I was, and then I realized, OK, I had been given a tremendous gift of the mind body connection, and I wanted to help and give back to cancer patients in the cancer world. And that's what I did, more research and more research and kept getting bigger and bigger and thinking higher and higher and like, OK, well, how about we use the biggest platform of the highest platform in the world to scream? Hope the guy. Great. Let's let's go climb Everest. Moved to Colorado just because, like the highest point in Florida is the top of the for the Four Seasons Hotel in Miami.   Joe: And   Sean: So I moved to Colorado, Rocky Mountains   Joe: I love.   Sean: Because I know I don't know too many mountaineers who live in Florida.   Joe: No, no, but it's also.   Sean: So I moved to Colorado and I trained in and literally nine months later flew over to Kathmandu, Nepal, and headed up Everest as the first cancer survivor to some of the highest mountain in the world.   Joe: So what year was this and how old were you?   Sean: Well, that was that was 2002, I actually submitted May 16th at nine thirty two in the morning. So night again almost 20 years ago, 19 years ago. I was twenty seven at the time. That's right.   Joe: And   Sean: Twenty   Joe: You   Sean: Seven.   Joe: Did this with nine months of training.   Sean: Nine months of training and when I first. Well, when I first moved to Colorado, I didn't even have any support. My brother came with me. We lived out the back of my Honda Civic and we camped in Estes Park for two months before we even got a sponsorship.   Joe: Oh, my gosh.   Sean: So we were I remember one morning we woke up, we were going to go climb, I think it's one of the Twin Peaks in Estes Park and we got about two feet of snow in August. And I was thinking to myself, because we're living in the car, that camping, it's like, the hell am I doing here?   Joe: Josh.   Sean: What did I get myself into? My my office was the library and a pay phone bank. So I was calling corporations like Ghatak and Karvelas in the Northeast saying, hey, I'm a two time cancer survivor with one lung and I'm going to go climb Mount Everest in 10 months and I need your help. Ninety nine doors closed in my face.   Joe: Really, that's   Sean: At.   Joe: So surprising that your story is so unique that that one that triggered people to say yes more often.   Sean: But they didn't think it was even possible.   Joe: I guess,   Sean: They thought   Joe: Wow.   Sean: It was physiologically impossible to do that with half your lung capacity, so they like, like I said, nine out of 10 people. I mean, hey, you know, this is my story. Click And I thought it was a joke. So   Joe: What?   Sean: I. I actually have both lungs, but there's so much scar tissue from the radiation treatment, there's really no oxygen transfer. Yeah. So   Joe: So   Sean: It's   Joe: There wasn't removed, it was just   Sean: Like.   Joe: It's just collapsed or   Sean: Now.   Joe: If that's the right term, but   Sean: That's   Joe: The scar tissue,   Sean: A perfect term,   Joe: Ok.   Sean: Yeah.   Joe: Ok, and this that was from the age 16 to one. A lot of the chemo and radiation was done. That's when it happened.   Sean: Exactly.   Joe: Did you have it? Did you also have chemo and radiation at 13?   Sean: I had chemo the first time and chemo radiation the second time.   Joe: Ok, and so it just affected the one long in the sense that it just created just the scar tissue over   Sean: Correct,   Joe: It where it wasn't. So   Sean: Correct.   Joe: It doesn't really work at all.   Sean: Not not really. In fact, in January, I had a little scare, they think it's a long term side effect from the radiation where I had some spots in my back removed and now I have another another starless by about six inches long where they had to go remove that. But if that's all I have to do, the first cancer, the second cancer is 16, 17, and the now 46 year old. Cut it out. I'm good.   Joe: Yeah,   Sean: Yeah.   Joe: Ok, so we are. You said what was the date again,   Sean: May 16th.   Joe: May 16th of two thousand and two,   Sean: Yeah.   Joe: And you were twenty seven years old, OK? And so you trained nine months before you decided you said, I'm going to go do this. So you you set aside nine months to get ready for this.   Sean: Correct.   Joe: Ok, so does the training. Is the training the stuff that I saw in some of the videos where you're you're pulling a sheet behind you and and whatever, your pull tire's up a hill and like, how did you figure out how to train for such as that?   Sean: So that was actually when I when I went to the North Pole a couple of years ago, but for training going up to up Everest, there's lungs Long's peak, which is 18 miles round trip, and it's it's fourteen thousand two hundred and fifty six feet. And I eventually worked my way up to climbing that peak once a week with 100 pounds of rocks in my backpack. So I would train myself and I'll go up onto that peak and into the Rocky Mountain National Park in a bad day, thinking that a bad day on Long's peak was probably better than a good day on Everest. And what I do a training for, for anything like the North Pole, the Hawaii Ironman, I did that. I train harder than I think the event actually event is going to be for two reasons. I get my body in shape, my mind in shape, but also I'm thankful I don't have to train more and I'm more excited about the actual event.   Joe: Right. That's crazy. So what is a normal when you're when you're training for something like that? What what would be a normal day in Sean's life? What time do you get up? What kind of stuff do you like? I can't even fathom something like this. I just   Sean: Well.   Joe: Got done skiing and snowboarding in Utah. I got home last night. I went with the old my oldest friend. We went from elementary and junior high and high school. And   Sean: Now.   Joe: Our families were friends and his father was my dentist. And so he said, I'm going to snowboard spring skiing. I haven't been skiing in twenty five plus years.   Sean: Now.   Joe: Like, come on, let's go. And I was a good skier a long time ago and yeah, I just can't imagine what it would take. My legs were shot. So what does it take. What's Seans the day in the life of of what you do.   Sean: Well, I'm going to challenge you again, then, what are you doing July twenty, Fourth to August seven?   Joe: I saw that and I was like, God, I want to do that. So   Sean: So.   Joe: Explain. So since you're talking about. Explain what that is before we talk about your daily routine. So   Sean: Well,   Joe: Explain.   Sean: Yeah, that would lead into it, because I everybody every year I take a group of Kilimanjaro as   Joe: That's.   Sean: A fundraiser for cancer charity, and what we do is we actually we pay for a survivors trip. And then it's the responsibility of that survivor to raise funds for next year's survivor, kind   Joe: Oh,   Sean: Of   Joe: Wow.   Sean: Paying it forward. Anyone can go. We just fund the survivors trip. And this year we actually have enough funds to send to survivors. So I'm hoping with those two survivors, there isn't. They raise enough funds to take three and twenty twenty two and then maybe five and twenty, twenty three and so forth up to. I'd love to take 15 people, 15 survivors for free every year at   Joe: Wow, that's   Sean: All   Joe: Incredible.   Sean: Costs. But for Kilimanjaro, let's say I would, I would wake up and about four miles from here we have a set of stairs that are pretty steep and there are two hundred and I live at I want to say sixty, sixty four, sixty five hundred feet. So I'm already an altitude which helps a lot.   Joe: Is   Sean: I   Joe: It?   Sean: Wake up in the morning before sunrise and eventually I will do that. That set of stairs 10 to 15 times with about 70 or 80 pounds of rocks in my backpack. So you're talking what, two thousand, maybe, maybe three, four thousand steps up and down in how many stairs are there? The Empire State Building. I think there's one thousand something so   Joe: Yeah,   Sean: Less than I did.   Joe: Right. Wow.   Sean: Then come back, wake my wife up, will do some yoga, eat breakfast, come here to do some work on my laptop, and then I'll probably either do it depending on the day, either rowing, lifting or running, and then on the weekends go out and do a 14 or something like that and a 14 year, a fourteen thousand foot peak. But I also have a sponsorship through a company called Hypoxic Go   Joe: Check.   Sean: Where there's this machine. I call it Arcudi to like R-2 because it's tiny and it actually filters out oxygen to simulate altitude. So I'll I'll do the yoga, I'll do the rowing machine or and I'm doing this because it's a mask of   Joe: For those of you who are listening, he's putting his hand over his face.   Sean: Just randomly. That's that's what I do. And I work out, I,   Joe: That's right.   Sean: I, I'll do those workouts at home on a mask that's connected to this machine and I'll end up doing these workouts at nineteen thousand feet. So what I'm doing is I'm pretty acclimatizing my body because I have to make up for the lack of my right lung because when you get into altitude there's less oxygen, you know, it's spread out, spread out further. And when you get to like if we left, if we went from here to the top of Everest, we'd be dead in five minutes just because of the lack of oxygen. So I treat it and I try to pre acclimatize myself. And when we go to Kilimanjaro, I tell people my training schedule and like, I could never do that. Well, remember, you're training for yourself. I'm training for me and ten other people.   Joe: Right.   Sean: So   Joe: Right.   Sean: This if you're interested, this would be my 21st summit of Kilimanjaro.   Joe: That's incredible in regards to what you eat, are you like a very strict like is everything that you do? Very strict and regimented.   Sean: Not not everything, I mean, I give myself some leniency sugar during the week, I don't do on the weekends   Joe: Ok.   Sean: On Easter. Yeah, I have those little malt balls, you know, the Easter Mother's Day. But for the most part, I mean, no sugar. See, what did I have just for lunch? My wife made a salad. We had some chick like a chicken, homemade chicken salad. We're very conscious of what we eat. We stay away from the sugars. No. And that means no white pasta, no white bread. I love I've always loved broccoli. I just eat healthy.   Joe: Right.   Sean: Every once in a while I'll have a burger or steak, but, you know, maybe once a month.   Joe: Beer, a glass of wine, no.   Sean: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I   Joe: Ok,   Sean: Like I actually I brew beer at home too.   Joe: Ok, OK,   Sean: Yeah.   Joe: Ok.   Sean: It's great because when I travel you know, I make the beer, I come back two weeks later I'm like, oh beer.   Joe: There you go. OK, cool.   Sean: Oh.   Joe: So were you afraid going Tavaris like, I can't I can't even imagine I'm telling you to sit here and talk with you about this. I I've watched like we've talked about before, we actually started recording, watched the shows, the different movies or documentaries about it and the getting frostbite and people getting pneumonia and their sister, their body shutting down. And they're having to have the tip of like my nose is red right now from being sunburned and windburn from Snover. And I'm like, I don't I can't even fathom all the things that must go through your brain. And then watching where you cross over on that, I don't even know what it's called. You think I know after   Sean: Remasters   Joe: Watching.   Sean: Have.   Joe: Yeah. The with the ones with the ladders. Right. I don't know how many of those you have to cross and I just I don't know. And then the spots where I don't even know if this is something people point out on the way up or on the way down. But that's where we had to leave so and so like at the all those things go into your brain and you don't want to be the weak link in the chain. Something happens to you and then all of a sudden other people have to descend, like, I don't even know how that works. So, I mean, arriving at base camp must have been just like incredible and scary as hell. I've been like, oh, my gosh, there's no turning back here. It is base camp. And I'm and I said, I'm going to do this.   Sean: I think for me, I obviously was focused on the summit, I wanted to get to the top like everybody else who goes over there, but I think I was more focused on enjoying the whole process because literally when I got to base camp, every step outside of base camp was my personal record for altitude. I had never been any higher than base camp. But so every step was higher than I'd ever been, so   Joe: What   Sean: I   Joe: Is   Sean: Am.   Joe: What is base camp at?   Sean: Seventeen thousand six hundred feet.   Joe: Ok, and you and you're saying this machine you use change you at nineteen thousand.   Sean: But I didn't I didn't have that machine before   Joe: Oh,   Sean: I.   Joe: Wow.   Sean: So the highest I have ever been was just around just below fourteen thousand five hundred feet, which is the highest mountain here in Colorado.   Joe: That's correct.   Sean: Albert.   Joe: Wow.   Sean: And when I got to the summit of Everest, I mean, it was double the whatever, the highest point I'd ever been. But I knew that I was so focused on, you know, you asked me about being afraid, there were times that those little. Negative seeds got planted in my brain, but I didn't want them. I didn't let them grow and I was very mindful and very aware of when those thoughts came in my brain, because looking back at the same analogy of that young boy on the shower floor, I focused on living as opposed to not dying. And when I when I was crossing the ladders on on the glass across the crevasses, I wasn't focused on, hey, don't fall in the crevasse. I was focused on making it to the next side. And when we passed the dead bodies, I stepped over a number of dead bodies. I just I tried to not ask myself the question, I did this when I got back down. Why did he die? Why would nine? And what's the difference, like, why would I why would I be worthy and he wouldn't be. But it's it's like anything in life where you just don't know sometimes. Why did I get cancer? I don't know. It's a whole question. Why me? Why me? Well, the fact of the matter is, it was me. So deal with it. Why not me?   Joe: Yeah, I've had this conversation with other people on the podcast who have gone through some adversity. I you know, I feel like that adversity has been given, fortunately or unfortunately, however you want to look at it, because the outcomes of things that you've learned through what you've gone through have created this person, this mental strength, and someone who is very happy day to day or other people, just no matter, they could be having the most amazing life and they still complain. But I feel like, you know, the adversity has been given to people with strength, and I'm not sure if that's true. It's something I made up of my own brain because I think I'm such a wimp that I cut my finger. I start like I don't know how I would deal with what you've gone through, what other people around me have gone through. So that's what's my own little story, I tell myself. So you just didn't choose me because he knew I couldn't handle it, so.   Sean: But but you never know what you can handle until you're put in that situation.   Joe: Right.   Sean: And people always say say things like that all the time, I don't. My God, I have no idea what I would do if I was ever in your situation. You don't know.   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: And you'd be amazed at how much you can actually handle when you are in that situation.   Joe: Yeah, that's incredible. OK, so you're at base camp and how many are you in? I don't know how you travel if there's 12 or 15 or whatever the number is. How many are there with you going up?   Sean: So, as you probably know, a normal Everest expedition could I mean, it could be 20, 30 people.   Joe: Ok.   Sean: A number of sardars Sherpas, you name it, and clients. I had my brother at base camp, a cook at base camp, two Sherpas and me, and that was it. We were I say I was we were on a shoestring budget, but we didn't even have shoelaces. So we.   Joe: Did   Sean: It   Joe: You end   Sean: Was.   Joe: Up ever getting sponsorship before you left?   Sean: I did in   Joe: Ok,   Sean: One of   Joe: Good.   Sean: Them was Ghatak, one was Capello's, and   Joe: Ok.   Sean: Believe it or not, I didn't even have a summit suit a week before I was supposed to go up for the top. And just my crazy luck. And I know it's not like it was by the big guy upstairs, but the north face came in with my my summit suit and it actually said Shantz Warner Everest base camp on the box. And it got to.   Joe: Wow, that's crazy.   Sean: It's like two or three days before I was supposed to go up in the sun at my summit suit came in.   Joe: That is nuts. Wow. All right, so when you start out, how long does it. How long should it take you or how long is like the most that you can spend up that high? Like, is there a period of time that you have the summit? And I know it's due to weather, too, right. You have to sometimes   Sean: At.   Joe: Just go. We can't make the attempt today. The weather is just not good enough. So what did it end up taking you from base camp to summoning Everest?   Sean: So a lot of people don't understand that when you get there, you don't go from base camp and go up to Camp One, spend a couple of days there, go up to camp to spend a couple of days there, three, four. Same thing from the south side. We actually there are four camps and then with base camp there.   Joe: Ok.   Sean: So we arrived at base camp April 8th and I summited May 16. So almost a month and a half. The whole time we're going from base camp up higher, establishing different camps and then coming back down so that that does two things, we go up with a full back, a pack drop off stuff and then go back with an empty backpack, go back up with a full pack your stuff and go back down. So, like I said, does two things. It actually transports the gear and material that we need to each camp, food, gear, whatever. But it also is getting our body adjusted to the altitude.   Joe: Ok.   Sean: So then we would go up and down, up and down, up and down after we established three and then four when when you get to camp for your before you get to Camp four, you pay attention to the weather. And there's a weather window because everybody has seen that that quintessential picture of Everest with the snow plume   Joe: Yep,   Sean: Blowing off the top.   Joe: Yep.   Sean: That's because that's because the sun is puncturing the jetstream, the just   Joe: Uh.   Sean: Tunnels, the summit, two   Joe: Huh?   Sean: Hundred three hundred miles an hour. So it's impossible to climb on that. So what happens is pre monsoon season, there's a high pressure system that pushes the jet stream north. And that's when people sneak up on top of Everest and come back down. So you see on I guess you don't look on a map, but meteorologists know and they give you a weather window like it's usually mid-May. For us, it was supposed to be May 15th where the weather window was good. But for whatever reason, that may on May 14th, we were supposed to move to May 15th and go up for the summit. I was at camp three and I was suffering a mild form of cerebral edema, which is altitude induced swelling of the brain. And I couldn't move. So every single other expedition who was on the same schedules, us went from Camp three, moved to Camp four and went to the summit that night. The next morning, the winds were howling. They came down the aisle retreat, and they lost their opportunity to climb. I slept on an oxygen that day. The next morning we went up to camp for summited on May 16th, a day later, and there was just a slight breeze in the top. We spent about 30 minutes up there to forty five minutes, which is unheard of.   Joe: Who's medically trained to tell you what's wrong with you or do you just have to know, like there's no one is like in your own little group, it's you just have to know what's right or wrong with you and how to fix it.   Sean: In my group, yeah, I mean, in other expeditions are expedition doctors, you know, everybody there were we made friends with some people from Brown University who were doing a study up there. And it was it's actually really funny. They're doing a study on how the altitude affects the brain. And they gave me this book and I became a volunteer to help with the study. And I was at Camp three when I was acclimatizing and not going up for the summit, but just sleeping at Camp three is going to come back down the mountain like a little Rolodex thing. It's like the size of an index card and you flip it back and on the front of it, you're supposed to pick out which object was was different, which which one didn't belong. And it was like a small triangle, a large triangle, a medium sized triangle and a Pentagon or something like that. Right.   Joe: So.   Sean: And so and each each are different. So big, medium, small square in a circle you pick out the circle. But it was funny. So I get up to camp three and I'm radioing down to them. All right. You guys ready to go? Yeah, we're good. So I flip it over and I'm thinking I'm going to have some fun with this.   Joe: All right.   Sean: So I go page one, the Penguin Page to the House, page three, the dog. And keep in mind, they're all geometric shapes. So   Joe: All   Sean: I think.   Joe: Right, to the naming of animals, as they say, oh, for.   Sean: It's like I take my thumb off the microphone and there's a long silence.   Joe: It's not.   Sean: And all of a sudden, Sean, are you feeling OK?   Joe: Right.   Sean: Like, yeah, why, what's going on? There are no animals.   Joe: That is so funny. Oh, my gosh, they were probably like, oh, we got to get a helicopter up there.   Sean: They were thinking, we need to get emergency up there and get him down off the mountain.   Joe: That is so funny. Oh, my gosh. So is it true that it gets backed up up there when people are trying to summit during a certain season?   Sean: It is now when I was there, it wasn't as bad   Joe: Check.   Sean: And also. A few years ago, there was a big earthquake and there used to be a section called the Hillary Step,   Joe: Yep, I   Sean: And   Joe: Remember hearing.   Sean: So it used to be a chunk of rock that used to hang out. And literally, if you took six inches off to your left side, you would plummet a mile and a half straight down. And there was that section where only one person could go up or one person could go down at a time, and that's where the bottleneck usually was. So with the earthquake, what I've heard is that there's no longer a Hillary step. It's more like a Hillary slope now because that giant rock has been dislodged. But from the obviously you saw a picture from a couple of years ago that just that long queue of people, apparently it's getting a little out of control.   Joe: And that's crazy. Would you ever do it again? Do you ever care about doing it again?   Sean: Well, as is my family or my wife going to hear this this time, I don't know if it calms down and it becomes less popular, I honestly would I would like to attempt it again without oxygen to see if it's possible to climb Everest with one lung and no no supplemental oxygen.   Joe: Who was the guy that did it with no, nothing.   Sean: Reinhold Messner, he's climbed, yeah, and then there's also a guy named Viscose who climbed the 8000 meter peaks. So it's been it's been done numerous times, but the first person who did it was Mesner. I believe.   Joe: No oxygen, it just all right. Yeah, I don't want to get you in trouble with your wife, so we'll just, well, not talk about it anymore, OK? I'm telling you, I can sit here and talk to you forever, and I want to respect your time. I don't want to run too far over. So besides everything you've done every day, the tallest peak on every continent at this point, is that true?   Sean: Correct. Still the seven summits,   Joe: Yeah,   Sean: Yep.   Joe: Ok, and then along with that, you have this series of books that you're doing. Can you explain what that's about, what people find when they give each one of those books?   Sean: Oh, sure, yeah, it's actually it's in the infant stages right now, but it's called the Seven Summits to Success. And I just signed an agreement with a publishing company. We're producing we're publishing the first one which is conquering your Everest, where it helps people bring them kind of into my life and understand how I've done what I've done, not just what I've done, what I've done, not what I've done I've done, not what I've done, but how I've done what I've done.   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: And it's also it's very similar to what I just I put together called the Summit Challenge, which is an online series of individual modules, seven different modules walking people through. Utilizing their own personal core values to accomplish things like self actualization, and at the end they essentially find their purpose and it came from the concept and the idea where after a keynote presentation, so many people would come up and say, that's a great story, but a handful would say, that's a great story. And then followed up with a question, but how did you do it? And then looking at Kilimanjaro again, the average success rate on the mountain is roughly forty eight percent, meaning fifty two people out of 100 don't even make it to the top. And like I said, this this July with my twenty first summit with groups and our groups are at 98 percent success rate, double that of the average. So I was thinking, OK, well what's what's the difference? And the difference is I've been subconsciously imparting what I've learned going through the cancer because my first goal was to crawl eight feet from a hospital bed to the bathroom, and then I ended up climbing twenty nine thousand feet to the top of the world. So all those little things, those little insights that I've learned, I've been imparting on people in my groups. So we do something every day that's different to help people get up there. In the main, the main understanding that they get is understanding what their personal core values are. Because once you hold fast to your personal core values and you have an understanding of a deeper purpose, nothing is going to get in your way.   Joe: So in that kind of brings us back to when you left college and you decided that you're you're camping with your brother and then you decide you're going to do this thing to Everest. Right. Was that the beginning of this this portion of Shawn's life where you're going to do these things? But now there's an underlying what's the word I'm looking for this an underlying mission, which is you're you're doing this, I guess, because you like to challenge yourself. Obviously, you just want to you're so happy with the fact that you have been given this chats with   Sean: Right.   Joe: With what happened to you. You're going to make the most of it. So here I am, Sean Zwirner. I am so grateful that I went through two different types of cancer that easily either one of them could have killed me. One of them ruined one of my lungs. I'm still living. Not only that, but I'm going to make the most of every day. So you go to Everest, you do this, you accomplish that, and then you say, OK, that that's that's it. You went for the biggest thing on your first run. You would start out small. You just like, screw it, I'm going to Everest. And then after that, all these other things would be cakewalks, and I'm sure they're not. But then you did all seven summits. And now, though, is it the underlying mission is that you are you are the voice of cancer survivors and and what you do and I don't want to put any words in your mouth, so stop me at any moment. But is it like you're doing this to to to provide hope for them to say, listen, I not only did it twice, but I am living at the highest level of accomplishment and and I don't know what there's so many words I can think of that you just you want them to all think the same way, just keep pushing forward, get the most out of life. And I'm here to support you. And look at me. I've done it. I'm not just spewing words from a stage. I've literally gone out and done this. So I want you to be on this journey with me, both mentally, physically, if you can. Does that make sense or that I just destroy it?   Sean: No, absolutely, I I wouldn't I wouldn't personally profess that I am the voice of survivors if others want to think that that that's great. But I wouldn't I wouldn't declare myself that. But I have found a deeper purpose. And it did start with Everest, because when I made it to the summit, I had a flag that had names that people touched by cancer on it.   Joe: Yeah, I saw that, yep.   Sean: And that was always folded up in my chest pocket, close to my heart as a constant reminder of my goals in my inspiration, and I planted a flag on the top of Everest. I planted a flag on the seven summits, the highest on every continent. And I also planted a flag at the South Pole and most recently at the North Pole. And I think it initially started. With the concept of I don't want to say infiltrating the cancer community, but getting there and showing them exactly what you said, you know, being up on stage and saying, hey, I'm not just talking the talk, I'm walking it as well. I know what it's like being in your situation. I know what it's like to have no hope. But I also know what it's like on the other side. And I also know what it's like to scream from the rooftops that there's there's a tremendous life after after cancer and it can be a beautiful life. So a lot of people who and like I said, it started off with cancer, but now it's it's reached out to anybody who's going through anything traumatic, which is with the state of the world, is it's everybody now. So with with any uncertainty, you can use that, especially with my cancer. It wasn't the end. It was the beginning. So what the world is going through right now, it's not necessarily the end. It's not uncertainty. How we come out of this on the other side is entirely up to us. And it's our choice. And we can use all the trials and tribulations and turn that into triumph of success if we want. It is all based on our own perspectives.   Joe: So you come off of Everest and then there's your life now become this person who is going to continue to push themselves for because you obviously want to live this amazing life and you don't you just do love the adventure. You love the thrill of the accomplishment. I'm sure all of that stuff that any of us would love, like I went skiing for three days of twenty five years. I'm glad I'm still alive. Sit and talk   Sean: They.   Joe: Because trust me, I wasn't the guy you were talking about walking down the sidewalk and say, don't trip down. I was like, you're fifty nine. You break a bone now you're screwed, you're breakable. And I'm going over. These moguls go, oh my gosh, why am I here? How did you survive? How does someone like that survive financially? How do you survive financially that you now did that? Does that start to bring in sponsorships and endorsements and book deals and speaking deals, or is it just the snowball that happens? And how do you decide that this is the path your life is going to take?   Sean: You would think so, and I've been approached by numerous corporations where the conversation went, something like me telling them, well, I really can't use your product up in the mountains and doing what I do. They say, OK, we'll just take the money we're going to give you by which you really use but endorse our product. So if I went if I went down that path, absolutely, I would be living the high life.   Joe: Right.   Sean: But because I'm a moral and ethical person, I think.   Joe: So.   Sean: It's not nearly what you probably think it is, I don't have people banging down my door for a movie. I don't have people banging down my door for a book. And I think it's because most of the media that we see on television is is paid for media. And every time I reach out to a production company or a marketing company or a PR company, they're usually the first question is what? What's your budget? OK, well, how about the story? How about helping people? Because like I said, every morning I write an affirmation down, in fact, or was it just yesterday was I will give more than I receive. I will create more than I consume. And I think most people who don't understand that think that you're living in a state of lack. And maybe I am. But I'm also incredibly grateful for everything we have. And do I want my story out there? Absolutely. But I don't need to make millions and millions of dollars on it. And what I what I want to do is take those millions and millions of dollars and take cancer survivors up Kilimanjaro every year. I'd love to do that three or four times a year. So I'm always looking for people who can who can jump in here and help me out and share my story with others to give back to help people and help them believe in themselves and help them find their purpose, their their inner drive, their inner.   Joe: Is this is going to sound so stupid, so forgive me, so when you do this, this trek up Kilimanjaro, you do it in July, right?   Sean: Yeah, yeah,   Joe: It.   Sean: People should arrive at Kilimanjaro International Airport July 20 for.   Joe: Ok, is it cold up there?   Sean: It depends. That's a it's not a stupid question,   Joe: Really,   Sean: But   Joe: I   Sean: That's   Joe: Thought   Sean: Like   Joe: You were going to   Sean: Asking.   Joe: Be like, yeah, it's it's it's however many thousand   Sean: Oh.   Joe: Feet. What do you think, Joe?   Sean: But that would be like me asking you, hey, what's it like in snowboarding? What's it going to be like in snowboarding? July? Twenty Fourth. Twenty twenty three. I mean, you have a rough estimate.   Joe: I.   Sean: So in going up Kilimanjaro, it's one of the most beautiful mountains I've been on because you go through so many different climactic zones getting up that you start off in an African rainforest where it can be a torrential downpour. It's always green, but it could be a torrential downpour or it can be sunny and the sun kind of filters through the canopy and you'll see these little streams of light coming to the camp, which is beautiful. And then the next day, it's it could be sunny or rainy, but it goes through so many different zones. You just have to be prepared for each one summit night. However, yes, it's tremendously cold. It can be zero degrees or maybe even minus 10. But with the right gear, you're going to be fine. I mean, there's there's no such thing as bad weather, just bad year.   Joe: Well, here's a good question, and if someone was to go on this is how do they get that gear that they have to buy all that stuff?   Sean: You can you can purchase it or you can rent it over there. I've used the same group of people for the past 18 months, and if you're if you're never going to use a zero degree sleeping bag again in your life, just rent it for 30 bucks. You don't spend three hundred four hundred dollars to buy one. Or if you do buy one and you're never going to use again, give it to my friends, the Sherpas of who use it all the time.   Joe: Right, so basically somebody's going on this could, when they arrive there, get everything they need to make it happen.   Sean: Well, except for your boots and your underwear, you probably don't want to rent me underwear.   Joe: The point well taken. OK, go. So I want to ask you about the Big Hill challenge.   Sean: So great, the big Hill challenge is actually an abridged version of the summit challenge, so some challenges this really in-depth twenty one week program where you take micro challenges and utilize something that you learn and just incorporate into your daily life. The Big Hill challenge is going to be a three week challenge where I take a group of one hundred people at a time and work them through three weeks of little micro challenges to help them along.   Joe: Ok.   Sean: And they're both based on understanding and utilizing your personal core values.   Joe: Perfect. And these can be found on your website.   Sean: Yeah, you can go to the summit challenge dotcom event eventually, you can go to the Big Hill challenge dotcom,   Joe: Ok,   Sean: But every   Joe: Ok,   Sean: One or dotcom.   Joe: Ok, great, because I'll put all of this in the show, notes and everything else, I wrote this question down because I wanted to make it clear that besides your website, Shawn   Sean: Like.   Joe: Swane or Dotcom, you have the cancer Climategate.   Sean: Correct.   Joe: Can you explain can you explain that site to me and what the goal of that site is?   Sean: So cancer climber, cancer climate Doug is actually the organization my brother and I founded that funds trips for cancer survivors to kill javu.   Joe: Ok.   Sean: And actually, if we raise, my goal is to raise about two million dollars to have a mobile camp for kids with cancer.   Joe: Wow. That's   Sean: Because   Joe: Incredible.   Sean: You there are camps all over the country, all over the world, but oftentimes you can't get the survive or you can't get the patient to the camp because of the compromised immune system. So I thought, well, what if there's a semi truck that brings the camp to the kids?   Joe: Hmm, that's interesting. That's a really cool. And the reason I ask about coming on being cold is because Joel in my my better half of 20 some years survived breast cancer. It was lymph node sort of stuff. So taken out and be like God. But she hates the cold like she I would be so cold to do something like this with her. She just literally I mean, I don't know if she would go the last section to the summit because her cold do not mix. She's so happy here in Arizona and she never complains about the heat. So   Sean: My.   Joe: That's the only reason I ask that. So.   Sean: My wife was born and raised in Puerto Rico,   Joe: Ok.   Sean: Forty forty years of her life, and she went with me.   Joe: She.   Sean: She did. She hated the last night, but she's so happy she didn't.   Joe: So it's really just the one night that's the   Sean: Yeah.   Joe: Coldest. So it's one night out. How long does it take to get from where you started out in the rainforest to the.   Sean: So the whole trip itself is a seven day trip up and down the mountain summit on the morning of the 6th, we leave the evening of the 6th, and then after we come off the mountain, we actually go we fly into the Serengeti and do a four day safari to the Serengeti.   Joe: And when you're staying on the way up to the summit, or is it just like caps right   Sean: But   Joe: There? Oh, so that's it. There it is.   Sean: The.   Joe: That's right. So the people that are listening to this on the podcast, you'll have to look at the YouTube video later. But he's showing me the actual   Sean: The.   Joe: Tents and. And is everybody carrying their own tent?   Sean: No, I actually, because I've been there so many times, we pay two porters per person to haul your gear up and all you have to worry about is your day pack some water, snacks, showers, your camera, sunscreen, hat, stuff like that. I don't want anybody carrying anything more than, say, twenty five thirty pounds up the mountain, but the sort of porters will actually give them the leave. After we leave camp, they'll pass us on the way.

Bill: Well Sean, I'm going to Boston with you. You know The Guy Who Manages The Red Sox, the Red Sox's manager, gave me a job as coach for as long as you're on the team. Sean: Look Bill, if you're the coach, you must know all the players. Bill: I certainly do. Sean: Well you know I've never met the guys. So you'll have to tell me their names, and then I'll know who's playing on the team. Bill: Oh, I'll tell you their names, but you know it seems to me they give these ball players now-a-days very peculiar names. Sean: You mean funny names? Bill: Strange names, pet names...like Dizzy Dean... Sean: His brother Daffy. Bill: Daffy Dean... Sean: And their French cousin. Bill: French? Sean: Goofé. Bill: Goofé Dean. Well, let's see, we have on the bags, Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know is on third... Sean: That's what I want to find out. Bill: I say Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know's on third. Sean: Are you the manager? Bill: Yes. Sean: You gonna be the coach too? Bill: Yes. Sean: And you don't know the fellows' names? Bill: Well I should. Sean: Well then who's on first? Bill: Yes. Sean: I mean the fellow's name. Bill: Who. Sean: The guy on first. Bill: Who. Sean: The first baseman. Bill: Who. Sean: The guy playing... Bill: Who is on first! Sean: I'm asking YOU who's on first. Bill: That's the man's name. Sean: That's who's name? Bill: Yes. Sean: Well go ahead and tell me. Bill: That's it. Sean: That's who? Bill: Yes. PAUSE Sean: Look, you gotta first baseman? Bill: Certainly. Sean: Who's playing first? Bill: That's right. Sean: When you pay off the first baseman every month, who gets the money? Bill: Every dollar of it. Sean: All I'm trying to find out is the fellow's name on first base. Bill: Who. Sean: The guy that gets... Bill: That's it. Sean: Who gets the money... Bill: He does, every dollar. Sometimes his wife comes down and collects it. Sean: Who's wife? Bill: Yes. PAUSE Bill: What's wrong with that? Sean: Look, all I wanna know is when you sign up the first baseman, how does he sign his name? Bill: Who. Sean: The guy. Bill: Who. Sean: How does he sign... Bill: That's how he signs it. Sean: Who? Bill: Yes. PAUSE Sean: All I'm trying to find out is what's the guy's name on first base. Bill: No. What is on second base. Sean: I'm not asking you who's on second. Bill: Who's on first. Sean: One base at a time! Bill: Well, don't change the players around. Sean: I'm not changing nobody! Bill: Take it easy, buddy. Sean: I'm only asking you, who's the guy on first base? Bill: That's right. Sean: Ok. Bill: All right. PAUSE Sean: What's the guy's name on first base? Bill: No. What is on second. Sean: I'm not asking you who's on second. Bill: Who's on first. Sean: I don't know. Bill: He's on third, we're not talking about him. Sean: Now how did I get on third base? Bill: Why you mentioned his name. Sean: If I mentioned the third baseman's name, who did I say is playing third? Bill: No. Who's playing first. Sean: What's on first? Bill: What's on second. Sean: I don't know. Bill: He's on third. Sean: There I go, back on third again! PAUSE Sean: Would you just stay on third base and don't go off it. Bill: All right, what do you want to know? Sean: Now who's playing third base? Bill: Why do you insist on putting Who on third base? Sean: What am I putting on third. Bill: No. What is on second. Sean: You don't want who on second? Bill: Who is on first. Sean: I don't know. Bill & Sean Together:Third base! PAUSE Sean: Look, you gotta outfield? Bill: Sure. Sean: The left fielder's name? Bill: Why. Sean: I just thought I'd ask you. Bill: Well, I just thought I'd tell ya. Sean: Then tell me who's playing left field. Bill: Who's playing first. Sean: I'm not... stay out of the infield! I want to know what's the guy's name in left field? Bill: No, What is on second. Sean: I'm not asking you who's on second. Bill: Who's on first! Sean: I don't know. Bill & Sean Together: Third base! PAUSE Sean: The left fielder's name? Bill: Why. Sean: Because! Bill: Oh, he's centerfield. PAUSE Sean: Look, You gotta pitcher on this team? Bill: Sure. Sean: The pitcher's name? Bill: Tomorrow. Sean: You don't want to tell me today? Bill: I'm telling you now. Sean: Then go ahead. Bill: Tomorrow! Sean: What time? Bill: What time what? Sean: What time tomorrow are you gonna tell me who's pitching? Bill: Now listen. Who is not pitching. Sean: I'll break your arm, you say who's on first! I want to know what's the pitcher's name? Bill: What's on second. Sean: I don't know. Bill & Sean Together: Third base! PAUSE Sean: Gotta a catcher? Bill: Certainly. Sean: The catcher's name? Bill: Today. Sean: Today, and tomorrow's pitching. Bill: Now you've got it. Sean: All we got is a couple of days on the team. PAUSE Sean: You know I'm a catcher too. Bill: So they tell me. Sean: I get behind the plate to do some fancy catching, Tomorrow's pitching on my team and a heavy hitter gets up. Now the heavy hitter bunts the ball. When he bunts the ball, me, being a good catcher, I'm gonna throw the guy out at first base. So I pick up the ball and throw it to who? Bill: Now that's the first thing you've said right. Sean: I don't even know what I'm talking about! PAUSE Bill: That's all you have to do. Sean: Is to throw the ball to first base. Bill: Yes! Sean: Now who's got it? Bill: Naturally. PAUSE Sean: Look, if I throw the ball to first base, somebody's gotta get it. Now who has it? Bill: Naturally. Sean: Who? Bill: Naturally. Sean: Naturally? Bill: Naturally. Sean: So I pick up the ball and I throw it to Naturally. Bill: No you don't, you throw the ball to Who. Sean: Naturally. Bill: That's different. Sean: That's what I said. Bill: You're not saying it... Sean: I throw the ball to Naturally. Bill: You throw it to Who. Sean: Naturally. Bill: That's it. Sean: That's what I said! Bill: You ask me. Sean: I throw the ball to who? Bill: Naturally. Sean: Now you ask me. Bill: You throw the ball to Who? Sean: Naturally. Bill: That's it. Sean: Same as you! Same as YOU! I throw the ball to who. Whoever it is drops the ball and the guy runs to second. Who picks up the ball and throws it to What. What throws it to I Don't Know. I Don't Know throws it back to Tomorrow, Triple play. Another guy gets up and hits a long fly ball to Because. Why? I don't know! He's on third and I don't give a darn! Bill: What? Sean: I said I don't give a darn! Bill: Oh, that's our shortstop.

Joined today by former NFL kicker and owner of Amazing Yoga, Sean Conley. After his NFL career at the Detroit Lions, Colts and New York Jets was cut short by an injury. Sean had to create a new identity for himself and now teaches yoga to Hollywood actors, the Pittsburgh Steelers, and thousands of people around the world. Max Out Insights: • Your mindset and self-talk have major effects on your performance. Be aware of how you communicate with yourself. • Listen to your body, there's a certain point where it isn't healthy to keep pushing. Ease your mind, recover your body and try a different approach. • Yoga is a gateway to access your mind and change your state both physically and mentally. • Be in the present moment, if you don't have control over what's on your mind let it be and focus on living the here and the now. • You can induce creative sparks and boost creativity by taking a simple walk in the park or going for a short hike. Max Out Quotes: • “Self-talk is what can break or make.” • “The only thing that would keep me from doing the basic and being successful was having too much on my head.” • “Rejection is part of the process.” • “Things will be okay even if you fail.” • “Yoga has benefits beyond the mental.” • “The more I practise Yoga, the more I can increase my awareness and be more present in the moment.” • “Live in the present moment.” Connect with Sean: You'll find his contact info, books, events, news and all the other information through his website at www.seanconley.net/

Sean: All of these things, you're pretty much doing it by yourself. Don't have a partner started by yourself. What is it going to be your end game? I'm assuming you're kind of semi-retired right now, is that right? Lane: Yeah, sort of, I guess. I'm still working my ass off, right? No, I have, I have partners. I mean, definitely have partners. We dont this all alone, right? Endgame, I mean, I like, I like to educate through my education platform, to learn these types of secrets of the wealthy that I never had access to when I grew up. There's a lot of hardworking Americans out there and, you know, in all countries, right? There's hard working people out there that they went to college. They studied hard. They get a good professional job yet they find themselves, the only option is to invest in some kind of 401k or government sponsored land. That just suck. I realized this when I bought a rental property, a simple rental property, wasn't the best one. It was my first and I realized I made 20 to 30% return on my money. And then I looked over at my 401k that I was supposedly supposed to, put my - all my money into, and that was only making maybe 8% what they say. And I'm like, what the heck? Why is this making like four or five times as much as this? Like, it doesn't make any sense to me, you know. What happened to all my money? Eventually, I figure it out what it was, right? It's you know, the world is kind of built on corporatocracies, where they kind of make money off the mass. Sean: Got it. And if you guys, if you listeners are wondering, what's 401k, it's like SSS, here in the Philippines where you place your money there and you're promised like a retirement or pension fund by the government, you guys know how that's working out right now with the pandemic. Lane: You know, figure out what you can do if you invest in it or make your own business and what does that give you, right? Numbers don't lie. Sean: You look like a guy who looks at numbers and just your shoot - straight shooter. And you're an engineer. You know, a lot of people just don't put in the hard work of looking at the numbers and competing like your, what you mentioned a 1% purchase to rental revenue ratio. Now I'm going to be talking about your secrets of the wealthy. You mentioned secrets of the wealthy earlier. I know you have an entire program for this. I'm not going to like ask you a lot about it, but if you could indulge us a short summary. Of course, you're not going to give everything away. You don't have to, but just a short summary. What are the secrets of the wealthy? Lane: Yeah, I mean, it's counterintuitive things like not buying your house to live in, don't invest in the retail financial products and things that you're captive in a retirement plan, and investing in things that make sense that you cashflow. You also combine different tax and legal strategies there too, but ultimately, it's building your network with other high paid, high network investors. Most of us in our group are doctors, lawyers, engineers, accountants. We kind of stick together in an investing tribe. Yeah. I think I would urge everybody to do that. Find yourself people who are interested in the stuff and on the trajectory upward. Sean: I'm wondering about that tribe. Are those people from all over the world or just there in the U S where you can meet physically? Lane: Mostly in the U S and Canada at this point. I don't speak, I don't know how to speak any other language. Principles are very similar anywhere you go. Save at least 10% of how much you make and put it to stuff that makes you more money. Don't buy stupid stuff.

Sean: You chose the exit path. The question is, why exit instead of scale? And when in that 12-year timeline did you realize, I have to get off the next stop? I have to build another train? Lee: It was actually fueled from the fact that I played video games a lot during my childhood. And I was highly competitive. Playing at a very high level. Why don't I transfer this energy, this passion to get better into a business? That's going to be level upping in life rather than level upping in a game. I mean, that business pivoted a number of times over those years. But suppose the point I realized is when I started to get more of understanding that because that business had been fueled by frustration, because I was once into level pit of life, I was building automations to ensure I could continue to run it, but it wasn't leveraging other people's value enough. I was still very closed because, It come from a place of, you know, a place of despair. Really. I was in a very tunnel vision, so I wasn't willing to delegate much at all. I'm still micromanaging. I was working too much in the business, not enough on the business. And when I became unwell, that was like a lesson. It was like it had to happen to me to knock me out at that part of comfort. And it's a challenging industry because I know and I've experienced the bigger your get, the more ferocious it gets. It's very, very competitive. And for years, I've managed to build to a level where I was not seen as a threat, and that was really integral because they left you alone. And by being left alone allowed me to actually flow in this little channel of my own really well. And looking back, I could have done it differently. I was seeing competition as a threat rather than a challenge to actually step up into and, you know, tackle. And that again is a mindset shift that I've gone through all these years. But when I went into hospital and was still running this company from a hospital bed with one hand, like I couldn't feed myself properly. I couldn't go to the toilet. I couldn't move. But I could still run a company with that one hand that I had working. Looking back, it was hilarious to even think about that. But I think it was at that point that I realized that, this has all been fueled by a lot of negativity unfortunately. And while it's given me an amazing chance to recover, while it's given me this time with my children before they start school, this isn't my bigger picture. It's not going to fulfill me. Doesn't feel fulfilling. I'm actually starting to not enjoy elements of it. And that fuel that desire. Entrepreneurialism is not easy. It's actually much easy to go and sit in a job and you have to kind of have that passion. And it becomes a point where I stopped and was forced to reflect because I was stuck in hospital bed - can't move. Have an awful lot of time to think when you can't move around, and you can't just be busy and doing stuff. And I think that everyone should take a bit of time away from the business, even though at first I understand you build in that momentum. So, you're working really hard. You have to do that at the start unless you've got a big investment. You're going to be wearing quite a lot of hops. Well, actually use that to think, these things I don't enjoy doing, will it have enough passion to keep doing these at some point in the future? Because that's a really good essay test as to wherever this is what you actually truly want to do.  But it could be like it was for me. All of a sudden, a tool and experience because the things I've learned from that business that help me in the one that I'm running, that really does resonate with me. It's not been a journey for nothing. It's been a journey where I've actually discovered myself through doing a business that after 10 years I didn't enjoy anymore, but you have to find out what you don't enjoy, because that will guide you to what you do enjoy.

Sean: You have been in sales and business development for what, seven years now.? Carlos: I've been in sales and business development for about 15 years now. Sean: So as a sales and business development guy, and also as a business owner, what keeps you going? Carlos: You know, I think it all comes down to the people around you. It all comes down to not just your network, not just your community, but your friends, man, like keeping a business afloat, especially at a time of pandemic like right now, you're going to find yourself relying on a lot of friends that you never really thought about doing business with, or, you're going to ask them for some connections or some networks.  During this pandemic there's quarantine, that's who you rely on, right? I have a lot of friends who are distributors of brands that are having a hard time because malls are closed, stores are closed, but they reach out to me and ask if I can help them sell things online. And I think that's really what kept a lot of businesses going. It's not just who, you know, but how well you know them and how much you trust them. There's this old rule that goes, don't do business with family, don't do business with friends.  It all comes down now to how strong your circle is.  Thankfully throughout the years, my circle has been pretty, pretty strong. It's still strong.  Sean: So how does that fit into the puzzle of-- Okay. I'm a musician. And heart and soul music. I create music, I direct music and I'm also a business developer. Now I'm telling people that the strengths of your circle of influence is what helps you out. How does that play into things?  Carlos: If you're a salesman or if you're a part of the sales team of your agency, or if you're selling printers or photocopiers, or if you're selling books, a lot of it is practice. You gotta practice.  It's just like being a musician. You play guitar. I play guitar like right now we've been recording. I've been playing the bass for about a few minutes now, but I play the bass about two hours a day. I play guitar for about two hours a day. I played drums for about an hour a day; and I play the keyboards about an hour a day. I'm always ready.  It all comes down to what you want for yourself, how much you want it, and how much you're willing to put into the repetition of things. I believe that the keyword in succeeding, in anything that you put yourself out to do is mastery.  I can play you the blues guitar without even looking at the guitar because I play three hours a day for 30 years and if you put me in any room, I can sell my agency to anyone from the Sultan of Brunei to the President of the United States, because it's something I keep doing. It's something I keep doing. It's something I'm a master at. The other side of mastery is knowing when to say, Oh wait, uh, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know, I'm talking about, I don't know how to, how to discuss that. In terms of being a musician, it's really about preparation. It comes down to those things, preparation, and practice. And then, of course, you perform. The three P's Preparation, Practice, and Performance. That's it.  Support the show (https://tribe.leadershipstack.com/)

Oliver and his brother started Kemweb in 1998, providing coding for other agencies and then livestreaming the Sydney Olympic Games in 2000. Three years ago, frustrated with being a tech-supply company, they took their technical expertise and redefined their business as a full-service digital agency, . offering results-driven web design, online marketing, social media marketing, PR, consulting, podcasting, video production and hosting services. Today, Kemweb's 35 developers, art directors, social media experts, and performance team workshop with clients to discover their needs. Kemweb customers range from B2B small and medium sized companies to fast moving consumer goods suppliers. Oliver credits his agency's success to curiosity and agility, and a change in its approach to potential customers. A lot of companies will pitch what they can do for customers, without first finding out what the customers need, saying, “We can do this . . . and this . . . and this. What do you want?” Companies may think about “What are we offering? What kind of service?” – but fail to ask, “Why are we doing it? Why should our customers believe the things we're doing?”  Finding the answer to those last questions was pivotal in driving the Kemweb's approach to its own customers. Business consulting is rare in Germany . . . and it's one of the things that is an intrinsic part of today's Kemweb process. Oliver suggests that you have to drive a lot deeper than the “easy questions” to discover what actions will best serve a client's needs. Kemweb now begins a client business relationship with a workshop/consultation utilizing Strategyzer's Business Model Canvas and Value Proposition Canvas to map out a business's knowledge, unsnarl its inherent complexity, and structure a customer-centric solution, with a focus on communicate the messages their clients want to communicate.  Sean notes that there are cultural differences between businesses in Germany and those in the U.S. For instance: German business owners have greater fear of change and new ways of doing things. Legalities differ as well: Data protection laws are more stringent in the U.S. Sean explains that the linear career process in Germany also affects the way people think. After finishing a German citizens finish their education, they take an apprenticeship, then go to a company and move up the ladder within that company.  Oliver was supposed to serve as a mentor at South by Southwest 2020 in Austin, TX, but the COVID-19 pandemic changed all that. He believes that, “This is a special period in time (that) forces people to be more courageous and to try out new things.” He feels that it is important for businesses to work together – to help the customers with their businesses and to help them survive. “We have to take care of each other . . . worldwide,” he says Sean recommends looking at today's challenges as an opportunity to spend more time with family or to online to learn new skills – just use your time. He is using his time in quarantine to set up an English-language Kemweb landing page. Oliver and Sean can be reached on the social media channels or on the company's website at: www.kemweb.de. They have a German-American podcast, Robot Spaceship, at www.robotspaceship.com,. described as an industry-leading, European podcast network with a focus on technology, culture, innovation and living the digital lifestyle. (You may need to understand a little German.) Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined today by Oliver Kemmann, Owner and Founder at Kemweb in Mainz, Germany, and also Sean Earley, the New Business Development Manager for the firm. Why don't you gentlemen start off by telling us about Kemweb and where Kemweb excels? SEAN: You go. OLIVER: Maybe I start. [laughs] I founded Kemweb together with my brother about 20 years ago, so 1998, in a time without smartphones, in a time without Facebook and YouTube. We were pretty much doing some coding for other agencies. We started also with livestreaming in the year 2000 for the Olympic Games in Sydney, so we were quite tech-related. As time passed by, we started to ask questions. How can we get away from being this tech supply company and how can we find our own customers? So we started to talk about digital communication and how we could help people out there to succeed in their special business by using modern digital technology. This is what we're doing today. We have about 35 people in the agency and we have developers and we have art directors and we have a social media team and a performance team. We do workshops and stuff to find out what the business is all about and how we can help, and then we set up the channels where we can communicate to the target groups of our customers. We think in stories and experience, talking about the stories our customer wants to get communicated, and we develop the experience on different channels and different devices. This is what we're doing. ROB: A lot of firms I think start off in that mode where they are taking downstream work from other agencies, other firms, but now it sounds like you have a better idea of who your direct customer is. What sort of company and perhaps focus or stage of company is that now? OLIVER: There's not one special kind of customer we are serving. We have a lot of B2B business. In Germany, we have a lot of small and medium sized companies. They're doing a lot of engineering stuff, or small producing companies. Usually they are not very familiar with classic marketing topics and how they could use digital communication to sell their products and services. But we also have, for example, fast moving consumer good customers and help them, for example, with social media campaigns. So it is very widespread, actually, the customers we are serving. It's quite exciting. What do you say, Sean? [laughs] SEAN: Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head there. I think from my point of view, I come from a background – it's a little bit different in Germany than it is in America. In Germany people have a linear process; they go to school, they do an apprenticeship, they go to a company, and they stay there in that skill range, and they just move up the ladder. In the States, as you all probably know, we work all kinds of jobs before we actually start our career. I've done all kinds of different things. I've worked in all kinds of different jobs. Lots of different agencies, consulted, tech, gaming. One of the things that I have seen is that there's always differences in everybody's needs as a business, but when it comes to marketing specifically, there's a lot of things that everybody needs. It really gets down to that value point, that use case that everybody needs, what is the problem that they have and how we can provide a solution. I think a lot of agencies particularly get a pitch and they go to a client and they say, “We can do all this stuff. What do you want?” When I started working with Kemweb, Ollie and I had a talk and it was like, that's exhausting. It's counterintuitive to what we want to do, and it's kind of counterintuitive to what the client needs because there are specific things that clients need. So we tried to refocus our strategy a little bit to work with clients to figure out exactly what they need first before we say “We'll take your 200,000 euro budget and we'll give you one or two or three things. What do you want?” We really try to focus in on the needs of the client and give them exactly what they need, and at the same time try to explore other areas to try to explore new places ourselves internally and externally so we can provide lots of services to clients. But at the same time, we really like to consult first and then give them what they need, and not just “here's your website, have fun with it.” Sometimes they say they want a website and they don't really need a website, so it's important to talk to people first. That's where the workshop and consulting come in. ROB: Got it. I think there's subtlety in the details there. You're not just talking about doing a bunch of discovery, if I'm hearing you correctly. You're actually talking about entering into a business relationship sooner with the client, where you have a process around a workshop, where you have a consulting arrangement rather than doing a bunch of unpaid discovery on an RFP. Is that what you're getting at? SEAN: Exactly. ROB: Very cool. What does a workshop look like for you? OLIVER: I'm a fan of a company called Strategyzer. It originated in Switzerland. These guys developed some canvas thing called the Business Model Canvas and the Value Proposition Canvas. I guess you're familiar with this. Our approach in the workshops is something Sean said. As a consultant, my job is to get the complexity out of the things. I'm taking all the knowledge the customer has and I'm structuring it in these canvases. This leads us to a very structured way, and at this point we start to look at our customer's customer, so it's very customer-centric. This leads us to exactly the customer pain we're addressing and what the customers are really looking for. Most of the time, it's the first time our customers have thought about their own purpose or why they're doing what they're doing. Most of them are coming from the “what?” – “What are we offering? What kind of service?” But not “Why are we doing it? Why should our customers believe the things we're doing?” This is what we do in the workshops. We try to get all the information from the customer and structure it down in canvases, and then we find the channels and we find the customer groups we should address first. ROB: That's probably been a part of your own journey as well. Business Model Canvas, anybody can google it. You'll find it, you'll pull it up. I feel like that tool flows from left to right, where it does flow into how everything leads in to the customer so you know what you're doing, but let's all tie that through to the customer. You probably had a little bit of your own journey on that as you transitioned from being a subcontractor coding shop to pursuing your own customers. What did that journey look like where you started to realize what the direct customers needed and you started to be able to pull away from taking parts of projects from other people? OLIVER: Good question, actually. Or the right question. When we started 2 or 3 years ago to find this way for ourselves, we always were communicating the “whats,” what we were doing. Websites, apps, firms. This is what every other agency is doing, too. They say what the output is. Then we started to dig deeper and find out, what are we good for? What has brought my brother and me to the point of founding a company or agency? Curiosity and agility are what's driving us. What we are doing now is we're very much curious about our customer's business. If we fully understand what the customer is doing and what the customer needs, then we can help. This was the turning point in our own company history, when we found out that. ROB: That seems like a neat intersection because you've not only found this curiosity for what they're doing, you're aligning this tool. You have a tool that actually facilitates your own curiosity that aligns the customer to where they're actually getting value out of the discovery process, unless they can pay you for it. You've aligned the customer and value for them with who you are in your own curiosity, it sounds like. OLIVER: Yeah. In Germany, at least, it's not very common that you do some kind of business consulting thing in a web project, for example. Most people, after the workshop, say, “This was a business consulting, what you're doing.” They start to look differently at their own business, at the company. In Germany, we're far behind you guys in the States where digital transformation is concerned. Most of the companies are very slow in changing things. The owner-driven companies really are shy to start changes, so they want someone who says, “Everything is okay. We have this web project, for example,” and you give them the money and it's ready by the 1st of June or so, and then you don't have to think about it. SEAN: I would just interject and say culturally, working in the States and in Germany, there's a lot of hyper-focusing on details here. There's also a lot of different rules when it comes to things like data protection, so there's a lot of hesitancy in a lot that goes on here as well. Especially with some sort of new and innovative tech project, a lot of people are like, “We can't even legally do that.” When it comes to things like sales funnels and where you store your customers' data, it's a whole other story over here, so it's not just – they're behind in their desire, but I think also they're behind because there's a hesitancy to want to try because sometimes it's difficult to make those steps. So I think it's a 50/50. There's innovation and there's also limitation. For us, we try to find a happy medium in there. Sometimes you have to talk a lot about that as well. ROB: In terms of adjustments, we were originally scheduled to have this conversation in person, in Austin, Texas at South by Southwest, and as we are in the midst of this global coronavirus pandemic, we're all doing this interview from home. I'm in a closet, to be candid. It's a different thing. But just for a moment, Oliver, you were invited to be there as a mentor. Is that something you've done before at South by Southwest? OLIVER: No, actually not. [laughs] I've been in Austin for the last 3 years, and last year I met some guy from Denmark and he was a mentor last year. He explained what he was doing there, and I thought it was interesting, so maybe I could help young people with my different perspective I bring as a German. Maybe I do look differently on things. On the other hand, I've been self-employed or an entrepreneur for more than 20 years. So maybe I can help some people. I just filled out the form and they picked me. [laughs] But I can't tell you what it's like because I didn't do this before. Maybe I will do it next year. SEAN: Ollie and I are both big music fans, and I actually played in a band at South by Southwest before. He was like, “Have you been to South by Southwest?” I was like, “Yeah, musically,” but the whole tech thing – and he was so excited. I was like, oh man. I felt so bad when they cancelled that. He was like, “What am I going to talk about now?” I was like, “You're a German guy there. You've got to talk about German topics.” I think that's stuff people want to know about. There's a whole different perspective there. It's not just tech in general. A lot of people talk general tech, but there's a lot of cultural differences in the tech industry here that I think he could really have provided. But I guess we have the internet now to communicate. ROB: Yes. People can reach out when they hear this and we can all talk in our closets. Or maybe we'll be out of our closets by the time we get this out there. Did they give you visibility into people signing up to talk to you and what they wanted to talk about? Or is it more so that you show up and people show up and go from there? How is that structured? OLIVER: I can't tell you. [laughs] We had a slot somewhere in a hotel for an hour I guess, or an hour and 50 minutes. I had 17 fans on the app, so 17 people were bookmarking me. Actually, I can tell. I guess you have to reserve a slot, but actually, I can't tell you if anybody already had the slot reserved. ROB: We're right here in the middle of March. At this juncture, as you are talking to your customers and potential customers and that sort of thing, how is the current state of things affecting both their mindset and maybe even how they do workshops? Are your workshops normally in person and you're planning for how to do them online? How is that changing your own business and your customer mindset? OLIVER: Wasn't it Macron, the French president, who said we are at war? [laughs] It's changing everything right now. We were well-prepared, actually. Sean, 2 weeks ago, said, “This is getting really bad, so we'd better be prepared.” We tried to get all our people home office ready 2 weeks ago when it just started to get really bad. But I have tons of customers who were not prepared for that. They're not even prepared to get their people in the home office, and they didn't think what they could do in this time. To be honest, I think this will not be a thing for 2 weeks or 3 weeks. I guess we're talking about months or years if this is getting better. We should for sure find very fast things we can change to have a workshop by Zoom or Teams and so on, but I can work with my customers even if they are not in the room. It's a little bit different, so I need my customers to be courageous enough to take such a step. I have a lot of customers who say, “Let's postpone the workshop and meet in 2 or 3 weeks. This can wait.” [laughs] I say, “Okay, go for it.” But on the other hand, there are a couple of people from the consulting business who were already setting up their remote setup. I can film the canvas and I can put the post-its there by myself. The important thing for me is to get all the information from my customers. They are driving this process, so I need all the information, and I can structure it at home in my closet. [laughs] My impression – maybe, Sean, you have your own opinion about this – I think people are getting aware. This is a special period in time, and not many people have experienced what we are experiencing right now. This forces people to be more courageous and to try out new things. This is my impression. SEAN: Yeah, I would just say that we were lucky to have enough time to try to be proactive and plan for it. Kemweb has a lot of experience in livestreaming and webinars as a core business, so it wasn't anything new to go remote. Since we do a lot of consulting for how to become more digital, it was not a scary concept for us. It was more about organization. We've noticed a lot of people who weren't ready, who are reaching out and trying to get an idea of what they can do to get ready, and I think it's also important for any business who does have any sort of strategic advantage – at this point, it's not about competition anymore. This is a global problem that nobody's ever dealt with, so I think we're just trying to take the opinion of let's try to be as helpful as we can. Let's be a resource for people. Let's do some consulting for people just so they can figure out what to do, much less take action on it. Everybody has different problems, but we have CEOs and managers, and everybody is quarantined in their house, worrying about their business. Some people are losing their business as we speak, and some people are like, “I need to figure out how to conduct business when we're here. How do we do this?” Luckily, we've just been in a position to be able to help people. For me, that's the most important thing. Just making sure businesses are running, people are being as successful as they can with the limitations, and hopefully when we get through this, everybody's going to be in a better place and not a much worse place. ROB: Right. That's an advantage I think you have in being strategic. I was talking to a client yesterday, an agency, and they have one client who's in travel, and they're very large, so that client is rightly putting a lot of initiatives on hold. But I think everybody has an inclination towards timidity in this moment. One of their clients was a beer company, and they said, “Should we cut back?” They said, “No, you can be bold right now.” SEAN: If you're not Corona. [laughter] ROB: Yes, for sure. I see it in my own feeds. People are talking about going out and buying beer right now. I think they look forward to it. So there are opportunities. OLIVER: That's what's different between Germans and Americans. Germans are buying toilet paper and noodles. [laughs] The French are hamstering red wine, and you guys go for beer. SEAN: The German term for prepping is hamstering, so there's a lot of hamster memes going on in Germany. [laughs] ROB: I had no idea. I've learned something there as well. Oliver, some people's agencies that we talk to are brand new, and some folks have been running them for a while. If you were in the U.S., we would probably talk about the 9/11 situation here. But you did navigate through the global financial crisis 13 years ago. What are some lessons that you may have encountered from that time that have helped you as you're looking at this new set of circumstances that is resetting global markets and making people worry a little bit? OLIVER: What we learned – our luck in this crisis 13 years ago was we had customers from all kinds of business areas. We were not only doing business with banks. So we survived it quite well, actually, but only because we had a widespread portfolio of customers. This is what we kept all the way from then to now. I guess this is also what maybe, or hopefully, will help us through this crisis too. We have also customers from the tourist business, so we're doing a lot of event stuff. Like Sean said, maybe now some livestreaming things. These companies are dying while we're talking. They're losing all the events, like South by, for example. All the catering people, our customers from catering. We have other customers from the public sector, for example, and we have customers from the hygienic field selling soaps. I think this is what we learned. Don't focus too much on one specific branch. 13 years ago, we were a much younger company. There were just a couple of people there. Actually, we were not flying high enough to be hit very strongly by the crisis 13 years ago, so it's hard for me to compare it this way. Sean, do you have a point here? SEAN: I wasn't with the company at the time, but I think just from experience and being in Germany at the time, it's similar in that there are companies that get financially hit and they're going to go down. There's nothing they can do. There's other companies that get hit hard, but they try to climb up. I think at this point, everybody is struggling and everybody is needing to be loud. Everybody is needing to communicate and reach out. Kemweb did video production, they did web production, so they had a rounded base of services that they could offer. If you have a diversified portfolio, then you can be agile with your approach to lots of clients. I think that's one of the reasons Kemweb has been able to be successful for so long through these ups and downs, at least in my opinion. Unless you know a secret I don't know. [laughs] That's just my outside opinion. OLIVER: Yeah, that's right. Maybe you know the new book by Simon Sinek, The Infinite Game. When I read this book, I didn't know up to the point I read the book we are in this infinite game. Since we are helping our customers, or trying to help our customers to succeed in a digital world – we did this for 20 years, actually, and every disruption or every crisis forces us to be inventive and to question our own work all the time. We did this for the last 20 years, and we came out stronger. So I guess he's right in his book. If you don't reach finite goals, to be the best in town or whatever, then you will find new approaches even for your customers, and you learn from every punch you get. You're learning. I think this is what we learned over the years. For example, when all the streaming was Flash – maybe your younger listeners remember, there was a software called Flash. Steven Jobs decided – all the streaming things we did were running on Flash from one day to the other. Nobody actually was using Flash, so our streaming business was down within a couple of months, for example. But you start finding workarounds and finding new solutions and stuff like this. If you get used to this, if you are not scared by disruptive changes – I guess such a crisis is a very, very disruptive change to everything. It's even a threat to your health, so this is a different problem. People are now really scared about their health, not only business-wise, but family and personal health-wise. So this is a different situation we have right now. ROB: That's a great point. With The Infinite Game, the objective, the point that Sinek makes is that this is not a chess game that you can win or lose. The goal is to keep playing the game. I think it could even be possible in this moment to take more encouragement. You mentioned Flash – Flash, for people who don't remember, was made by Adobe. It was Adobe's attempt to control the browser. SEAN: It was Macromedia and then it was Adobe, I think. ROB: Yeah. When Apple came out against Adobe, that was a specific headwind against Adobe, and a big part of their strategy and a big part of their business. They moved out of trying to control the browser into a bunch of other things. There's a lot of big companies that just take up space and are hard to admire, but Adobe, with having the primary paid enterprise for analytics up against Google Analytics, with the way they've managed to turn their creative suite into a subscription business, they really have figured out how to keep playing the game. I think anybody who's listening probably has even more of an advantage now because Adobe had a specific headwind; this is a headwind that we all have. Everyone's fighting this at the same time. So it's not just you. People are going to win here, and I think it can be Kemweb and it can be anyone else who's listening, if they figure out how to keep playing the game well. SEAN: Yeah. I'd look at this as an opportunity. You can look at it as negative as you want, you can get depressed about it and you can sit there and pout, or you can really try to think of the positive ends. For me, just being able to take time to spend more time with the kids when they're home, or to be able to teach them from home how I want to, or to be able to go online and spend my time with a course, learning something new – you've got to take this as positive as you can. You have to utilize your time. Everybody in the world is confined to their homes at this point, or almost, so do what you can do to benefit from that situation. I think that's really what you've got to do here. I think you will benefit in some way as long as you see it as a positive thing. OLIVER: I would like to bring up another point. It's actually about solidarity. We all have to take care of each other and the other companies. If our customers die, for example, we won't be able to do business after the crisis with them. So we also have to put up plans where we can help our customers not just on the business, but on the survival side of things. So maybe this will make people think about things they've done before or ways they saw things before. Right now we have to take care of each other worldwide, actually. ROB: Yeah, it has definitely taken that longer approach of, for people who are young, to say, “You may be young and you may not be likely to get sick, but what about someone else's parent, grandparent?” SEAN: We're getting up there. ROB: What about us on this call? Take care of us too. But really, how to think beyond yourself I hope is a lesson we can carry forward a little bit longer than just the memories of this unusual season. Oliver, Sean, when people want to track you guys down, when they want to find Kemweb, where should they go to find you? OLIVER: They should go to the internet, this new thing, you know? [laughs] ROB: That's all we got. That's all we got right now. OLIVER: You'll find us on the social media channels. We have our own podcast, actually, which is a German-American podcast form, and it's called Robot Spaceship. You need to understand a little German. I'm speaking German and Sean is speaking American English. But you'll find us on the web, www.kemweb.de. SEAN: Kemweb.de, and that's www.robotspaceship.com for the podcast. OLIVER: Sean is using his quarantine to set up an English landing page. [laughter] Isn't it, Sean? SEAN: It is. There's so much translation that happens. There's so much work. [laughs] I need to take a vacation from working because I've got so much work to do. [laughter] ROB: I think we'll all be looking to help the travel industry rebound in a little bit when we can all come out of our holes. Oliver, Sean, thank you for coming on. Thank you for sharing at this time. It's good to be able to connect over audio, at least, and share some of your learnings, lessons, and growth with the world. SEAN: Thank you. OLIVER: Thank you for the invitation. Great experience for us. ROB: Thank you so much. Maybe in Austin next year. SEAN: Definitely. OLIVER: For sure. ROB: Let's work that out. SEAN: Fingers crossed. OLIVER: On 6th Street. [laughs] ROB: All right, thanks, guys. Bye bye. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

One man has broken out of Alcatraz, and when hostages are being held there, only one man can break a rescue team in: Sean “You’re the man now, dog” Connery. So join us this week as we watch yet another Nicolas Cage movie and ask if The Rock holds up!

Sean LeFloch is the owner and operator of CrossFit Delray Beach. As a former athlete and lacrosse coach, Sean has been coaching for 13 years and specializing in CrossFit for the last seven. Throughout our conversation, Sean shared some of the ways in which his mentors have inspired him and how their codes of ethics have shaped his own. One of the most critical practices in Sean's day-to-day life is meditation. He goes deep on how his relationship with meditation has shifted his perspective, and describes how meditation has become a central ritual in his morning. Learn more about how Sean's relationship with meditation has evolved, as well as the other important practices that have helped him to stay grounded and successful. Want to connect directly with Sean? You can find him on Instagram @seanlefloch and @flochfitness or visit his gym, CrossFit Delray Beach.

  As part of Nonfiction in Translation Month at Three Percent, Polish translators Antonia Lloyd-Jones and Sean Bye came on the podcast to explain Polish Reportage, talk about some key figures and forthcoming books, and more or less introduce Open Letter's new nonfiction line. Some of the titles mentioned on this podcast include: Dancing Bears by Witold Szablowski (trans. by Antonia) Foucault in Warsaw by Remigiusz Ryziński (trans. by Sean) Nobody Leaves: Impressions of Poland by Ryszard Kapuscinski (trans. by ?? not on Penguin's site or Amazon) Chasing the King of Hearts by Hannah Krall (trans. by Philip Boehm) Roosters Crow, Dogs Whine by Wojciech Tochman (Antonia is working on a sample) History of a Disappearance by Filip Springer (trans. by Sean) You can find Antonia here, and Sean on the Cedilla & Co. website. The intro/outro music on this episode is from "On the Luna" by Foals. You can also follow Open Letter and Chad on Twitter and Instagram (OL, Chad) for book and baseball talk. If you don’t already subscribe to the Three Percent Podcast you can find us on iTunes, Stitcher, and other places. Or you can always subscribe by adding our feed directly into your favorite podcast app: http://threepercent.libsyn.com/rss

Trading Block: OCC announced that total cleared contract volume in February was 333,411,251 contracts, 1% from February 2016 volume. Index options volume was up 11% with 39,247,030 contracts in February. An escalating broker price war has begun. Odd Block: Puts trade in iShares Iboxx $High Yield Corp (HYG), calls trade in NRG Energy, Inc. (NRG) and calls trade in Dicks Sporting Goods (DKS). Mail Block: Options #QuestionOfTheWeek #Oscars Edition. #WarrenBeatty screwed up Best Picture. What's your biggest #Options screwup? 37% - Held onto shorts too long 37% - Time Decay killed me 11% - Gamma Exploded In My Face 15% - Vega Snuck up on My Delta Listener replies: Comment from Matt Benson - Calls in TSLA last week, lol (in response to OQOTW) Comment from John Dakota - Too soon to tell. My one mistake was putting an Iron Butterfly on wrong had to lose 20 and a DT for it. Just took off BBY for 200+! #QuestionOfTheWeek, part deux SNAP #Options arrive Friday. Assuming $SNAP is still $25 - price the 1-week straddle exp. 3/17 (aka how much movement) Between $1 - $2 Between $2 - $3 Between $3 - $4 Over $4 Listener questions and comments: Question from Hopgrower - Mark and The meatball, love your shows. My question is as follows: How much heart burn does this thought process give you. I have a directional bias and I buy a slightly in the money call 45 to 60 days out. The stock moves in my favor then stalls or retraces slightly. I then turn it into a vertical. Please fire away. Always learning. Thanks, Hopgrower Question from Tom Drake - Whats up with Mike's SLV collar? Question from Sean - You have discussed closing positions prior to earnings on past shows. Why would I take an OTM options off the table before the announcement? Is that not exactly when I want to have the option? Around the Block:/This Week in the Market: Mar 6: Factory Orders Mar 7: International Trade Mar 8: Productivity and Costs Mar 9: Jobless Claims Mar 10: Unemployment Mar 10: Export Prices

Trading Block: OCC announced that total cleared contract volume in February was 333,411,251 contracts, 1% from February 2016 volume. Index options volume was up 11% with 39,247,030 contracts in February. An escalating broker price war has begun. Odd Block: Puts trade in iShares Iboxx $High Yield Corp (HYG), calls trade in NRG Energy, Inc. (NRG) and calls trade in Dicks Sporting Goods (DKS). Mail Block: Options #QuestionOfTheWeek #Oscars Edition. #WarrenBeatty screwed up Best Picture. What's your biggest #Options screwup? 37% - Held onto shorts too long 37% - Time Decay killed me 11% - Gamma Exploded In My Face 15% - Vega Snuck up on My Delta Listener replies: Comment from Matt Benson - Calls in TSLA last week, lol (in response to OQOTW) Comment from John Dakota - Too soon to tell. My one mistake was putting an Iron Butterfly on wrong had to lose 20 and a DT for it. Just took off BBY for 200+! #QuestionOfTheWeek, part deux SNAP #Options arrive Friday. Assuming $SNAP is still $25 - price the 1-week straddle exp. 3/17 (aka how much movement) Between $1 - $2 Between $2 - $3 Between $3 - $4 Over $4 Listener questions and comments: Question from Hopgrower - Mark and The meatball, love your shows. My question is as follows: How much heart burn does this thought process give you. I have a directional bias and I buy a slightly in the money call 45 to 60 days out. The stock moves in my favor then stalls or retraces slightly. I then turn it into a vertical. Please fire away. Always learning. Thanks, Hopgrower Question from Tom Drake - Whats up with Mike's SLV collar? Question from Sean - You have discussed closing positions prior to earnings on past shows. Why would I take an OTM options off the table before the announcement? Is that not exactly when I want to have the option? Around the Block:/This Week in the Market: Mar 6: Factory Orders Mar 7: International Trade Mar 8: Productivity and Costs Mar 9: Jobless Claims Mar 10: Unemployment Mar 10: Export Prices

2019 update: I no longer do such intense transcribed show notes with timestamps. Still, this is a great episode that is worth listening to. Also, check out the Simplecast blog for a free episode notes template that I made for you, as well as a tutorial about how to add podcast chapters (chapter titles, timestamps, URLs, and images) to your episodes using the Forecast mac app. This week I'm joined by special guests Sean and Laci McCabe to talk about how to supercharge your podcast with writing. I've seen how much value listeners get from the show notes for the seanwes podcast, so I wanted to bring Sean and Laci on the show to talk about how to find topics for episodes that will resonate with your listeners, and how to write show notes full of valuable information that will help grow your audience. In the first half of this episode, Sean shares tips on how to finds topics that resonate with your audience, and how to prepares for episodes by writing outlines. In the second half, Laci shares her tips on writing show notes after the recording stops. This episode is jam packed with great tips about how to use writing to make your podcast better. I hope it inspires you to take a little more time to prepare for your shows and invest time in writing great show notes that stand alone as valuable posts that your listeners will love and share with other people. Key Takeaways: Let people come up with episode topics for you. Make them feel like you’re reading their minds by answering their questions. If you don’t have an audience, go where the conversations are happening. Find out what people are struggling with and answer their questions on your show. Save questions and topic ideas in a text document or to-do list app. Script enough to have structure but not so much that you smother spontaneity. Imagine the person reading your show notes never listens to the episode. What takeaways and highlights can you give them in written form? You can repurpose written content for other mediums. It all starts with writing. Show notes don’t have to be an exact transcription. They can be a hybrid of transcription and blog post. People will see you as an authority if you write or podcast about a topic consistently. Aaron: The most important thing to think about is starting with the takeaway in mind. A great podcast episode has at least one takeaway. I love learning, so a perfect podcast for me is one that tells me right away (either in the title or the description) what the episode is going to be about. We’ll call that the takeaway. Sean: So for this episode, the takeaway is a two part look at using writing for podcasting: How to prepare an outline for the episode, and then when you’re done recording, how to turn that outline into show notes. Start With the Takeaway in Mind Aaron: Depending on the structure of your show, the takeaway can be a large topic with a few sub-topics, or just a very focused look at a single topic. A 20 minute episode about a single topic can be as valuable as a two hour show that covers a broad range of topics within the context of a larger topic. I’ve found that starting an outline with a takeaway makes me think about the important sub-headlines for the episode, the important things I need to share with people. Over the course of a week, I’m thinking about the topic, writing, thinking, then writing again. Sean: I’ve done two shows a week for the past year and a half, but recently, I started doing another podcast weekly as well, so that’s three shows per week. Coming up with topics is challenging, especially when you’re trying to come up with topics that people find valuable, but the real trick is letting people come up with topics for you. You want people to say, “How do you come up with an episode that’s exactly what I was wanting to learn?” You aren’t going to get that by guessing all the time. You’ve got to ask them. You have to ask them what they’re interested in. The best way to do this is by pointing people to your website. Have an email signup form, so when people sign up, send them a welcome email, an autoresponder with three things: Tell them who you are. Explain what they can expect to get from your newsletter. Ask them what they’re struggling with. So you’re setting the stage as far as who you are and what they’re going to get from the newsletter, and then you’re asking them what they’re struggling with. They’re going to be eager to share their questions with you, and you can collect those questions and use those as topics for your podcasts. That’s how you create episodes that people will listen to over and over. Your listeners will feel like you’re reading their minds. All of my topics (at least as many as possible) are a direct response to someone’s question. Let people come up with topics for you. Make them feel like you’re reading their minds by answering their questions. Aaron: How do you keep track of all these questions? Sean: I use a to-do list app called Wunderlist. I have a category for topics, and I’ll include titles, notes, and any specific questions that I can bring into the show. Aaron: So you’ve got this bank of questions and show topics that you update when you get new questions or ideas. How to Come Up with Topics When You Don’t Have an Audience Sean: We’ve got a question in the chat from Marinda: How do you come up with topics when you don’t have anyone to ask yet? Should you only start a podcast with an existing audience? Having an existing audience is great, but podcasting is a great way to build an audience. If you’re not getting those questions from anyone, you need to go out and start those conversations with people. The autoresponder trick only works if you already have people coming to your website and signing up for your newsletter. If you aren’t getting that traffic, go where the people are. Start conversations. Go on Reddit, Twitter, Facebook, or Instagram, and start conversations with people in your niche. Go where the people are and observe the things they’re talking about. Find out what they’re struggling with. If they’re posting about it in a public forum, that’s an opportunity for you to use it as a topic for your podcast. If you don’t have an audience, go where the conversations are happening. Find out what people are struggling with and answer their questions on your show. Aaron: I collect topics and questions in a app called nvALT. As I’m going through my week, anytime I see someone struggling with something or if someone asks me a question about podcasting or audio, I capture that as a possible topic for a future podcast episode. That gives me a starting point for a podcast episode. Save questions and topic ideas in a text document or to-do list app. Use Questions as Titles for Your Episodes Sean: The title of the episode is the question you’re answering in that show. You aren’t giving away the answer or solution in the title, make the title something people are struggling with, then deliver a solution in the episode. Start with the takeaway and then flesh out an outline, the steps that lead up to the solution. Script enough to have structure but not so much that you smother spontaneity. Aaron: I did a lot of writing for my previous episode (How to Edit Podcasts Like a Pro). I spent multiple hours writing the outline over the course of a week, and preparing so much allowed me to focus on doing a great job with my delivery of the content. Sean: I saw those show notes, and thought they were great. You told me that you had written them before you recorded the show: The outline can also serve as a structure for your show notes. Prepare for a Solo Show by Writing a Detailed Outline Aaron: If you’re doing a solo show, the more you write, the more you prepare, the more confident you’ll feel about delivering your message because you’ve thought it through and written it out. Sean: You will need to script more for solo shows, because you don’t have a co-host to chime in. Don’t script out every single word you’re going to say, but make lots of bullet points. You’ll probably get through the list of bullet points faster than you’d expect, so prepare a little bit more than you think you’d need, but do it in bullet form, not word-for-word. Aaron: Do you think it’s possible to read a pre-written blog post in a way that makes it sound completely natural? Sean: I think you can, but your writing style must be very, very natural. That only comes though practice. It comes from writing something, recording yourself reading it out loud, then listening back and re-writing it to fit your “voice” or natural style of speaking. Repeat that process over and over and your speaking will improve because you aren’t filling space with filler words because you’re reading what you wrote. Your writing will also improve, because you’ll find that some of the things you write aren’t written the way you speak, and it doesn’t sound very natural. Practicing those things will improve both your writing and your speaking. How to Write Show Notes Aaron: Laci, what is your previous experience with writing, and how did you get the job of writing show notes for seanwes? Laci: I don’t have a background in writing as a job, but I wrote a lot when I was growing up and in college. My grandfather was an author that published a few books, and when I was 11 or 12, I did some editing for his books. My previous jobs had nothing to do with writing, but I volunteered to write show notes for Sean when he decided he wanted to hand off that responsibility to someone else. I had no idea what I was getting myself into at the time. Sean: Laci has written over 10,000+ words for certain episodes. That’s intense. Aaron: Many podcasters write fairly simple show notes for their podcasts, usually just a description and some links to things mentioned in the show. The show notes for seanwes episodes are much more detailed: They’re part transcription, part blog post, and part e-book. Provide Value to Your Audience through Writing Sean: We had a great question from Pam in the chat: “What’s the benefit of doing these exhaustive show notes? Is the investment worth it?” Monetarily? No. We’re not making a ton of money from it. It’s about value to our readers and listeners. There are a few ways that these show notes are beneficial to us, though. First, SEO. If you have a ton of written content on your site, search engines are going to notice. You’re going to show up in Google for all kinds of key words because you wrote them out. Audio is impenetrable. You can’t scrub through it like on a video where you can hover over the timeline and see what you’re going to get. There’s no way to do that with audio, so having all of that audio content written out makes it more accessible, not only for search engines, but for humans. The other thing is that we have deaf people in our audience. Writing exhaustive show notes allows them to read and enjoy the content. Also, some people prefer to read a blog post instead of listen to a podcast. Maybe there’s a stay-at-home mom in our audience that doesn’t have an hour to listen to the podcast. Something we’ve started doing recently is what we call highlights and takeaways. Imagine the person reading your show notes never listens to the episode. What takeaways and highlights can you give them in written form? Aaron: Do you start by writing those takeaways and highlights before recording the show, or do those come from Laci listening through and pulling them out? Sean: I used to do more of that myself, I would highlight them in the outline, but Laci has gotten really good at knowing what to put in the highlights and takeaways section. We’ve got a good team rhythm going where I don’t have to be super explicit about takeaways. Reach the Broadest Audience with Writing Aaron: Like you said, people consume content in different ways. Those extensive show notes are like a standalone blog post, and writing is never wasted time. People will find it later and read it and get a lot out of it. Sean: Let’s say someone listened to this episode, maybe in the car or while running. They want to go back later and find certain nuggets without having to listen to the whole episode again. A lot of people that listen to the seanwes podcast go back later and reference things in the show notes. They can do a Google search for the name of the show plus a keyword, and because we do timestamps in the show notes, they can find the place in the episode where we were talking about that thing they searched for. You can also repurpose written content for other mediums. It all starts with writing. I talked about this on my podcast in episode #139. Everything starts with writing. If you only have audio, you don’t have written content. If you turn that into written content, you can repurpose it. You can copy that content into an email as a newsletter or a one-off response. You can turn it into a video – that’s what I did for seanwes tv. I took my written content and recorded video and put it on Youtube and reached a totally different audience. Laci’s Tips for Writing Show Notes Aaron: Laci, what happens after I finish editing an episode and send it back to you? What does your workflow look like? Laci: The first thing I do is listen for the point where they get into the topic of the show. There’s usually around five minutes of chatting before they get into the topic of the episode, so I listen for that point and that’s where I start the show notes. I change time stamps when a different person starts talking, or after about a paragraph. If the same person is talking for a long time, I’ll break that up into paragraphs for readability. I think of the scroll of a screen as a page of a book. I don’t want them to have to read a full page of solid text, it’s easier to read if it’s broken up a little bit. Sean: Maybe we should back up and talk about how we do transcripts. A lot of people might think you just write down every word that was spoken, but that’s not how you do it. Laci: It’s not an exact dictation of what is spoken. It’s a condensed, readable format of what was said. Using the book example I mentioned earlier; books have dialog, but they’re not all dialog. You wouldn’t want to read 10,000 words of dialogue in a book of dialog, so you want to break that up. Show notes don’t have to be an exact transcription. They can be a hybrid of transcription and blog post. Laci: Another thing you can do to make your show notes more readable is eliminating verbal transitions. A lot of times, people will start a sentence with “so”, “yeah” or “and”, or use those kinds of words as transitions between sentences or thoughts. I listen to the sentences that are being said and think about how I can rewrite them to make them more readable. Aaron: So you’re taking some liberties with how you write what was said. You listen to what the person said, and then you think about how you could re-write it to make more sense or be more readable. Laci: Sometimes Sean will repeat something for emphasis. For example, he’ll say basically the same thing three in three different sentences. I’ll condense that into a single sentence so that people don’t have to read repetitive content. Use Emphasis and Pull Quotes to Make Important Content Stand Out Sean: There are several things we’re doing when writing show notes. We’re breaking up the sections, adding headers, and designating the people talking, and we’re also pulling out interesting parts of the discussion to use as pull quotes. We do this because some people just skim the content, some are just looking for the gold nuggets, and there are people who will read the show notes all the way through. We want to cater to people at all different levels of engagement. There’s a few ways we do this. First, we tell a story through the headers. So imagine someone only looks at the headers; what is the message they’re taking away? We also give them some of the best takeaways in pull quote format. Finally, we bold key phrases or takeaways throughout the show notes. A lot of people will bold text for emphasis. For example, they’ll write, “The thing you really want to do it…” and they’ll bold or italicize the word “really”. When someone is skimming text, the things they’re going to notice are the things that stand out; headers, pull quotes, or bolded text. If you only use bold text for emphasis, that doesn’t tell a story or give your listener a takeaway. I ask Laci, “Would I tweet this? Is this a takeaway in and of itself?” Those are the things we bold. Laci: We do use pull quotes, but these aren’t the same as pull quotes that you might see in a magazine, where a sentence or quote is pulled from the actual text. We try not to repeat content, so the pull quote is a short summary or a gold nugget. Any headlines, bolded text or pull quotes are takeaways that can stand alone. We also use switch between italics and regular text to indicate which person is talking at the moment. Sean: I started doing that so the reader could immediately tell who was talking without having to look back and check for their name. Writing Builds Authority and Trust Aaron: Writing extensive show notes also shows my potential clients that I’m familiar with these subjects. No matter what your niche is, if you’re recording podcasts and writing show notes about topics, that demonstrates that you know what you’re talking about and it makes you an authority on that topic. Sean: If you want to make a name for yourself, write daily. That’s how people see if you’re an authority; they look at your website to see what you’ve written about a certain topic. People will see you as an authority if you write or podcast about a topic consistently. Aaron: You’ll also learn more about a topic by preparing an outline and writing show notes. If you start with the mindset of providing something useful and valuable, then you have to go out and learn in order to share that knowledge. Q&A Cory Miller asks: Should I invest in dictation software to help with show notes? Laci: We tried using dictation software, but I stopped using it after two or three months. It was only about 50% accurate, so it was taking me more time to fix the mistakes than it would have if I wrote the words out myself. So depending on how fast you type, it might end up being faster to just do it yourself. Cool Stuff to Check Out: Recommended Gear: https://kit.com/thepodcastdude Podcast: https://thepodcastdude.simplecast.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/thepodcastdude Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/thepodcastdude Successful Podcasting: http://successfulpodcasting.com Simplecast Blog: http://blog.simplecast.com/

Key Takeaways (the TLDR Version): Start with the end in mind: What do you want to achieve with your show? How will you know if you've been successful after a year, or two years, or ten years? What are your goals? It helps to clearly define the answers to these questions before you start. When you start a podcast, you need to think about how you can provide something valuable to your listeners. Ask yourself, “What kind of person am I trying to reach, what are our common interests, and what am I going to give them? What do I want my show to do for them?” In order to start a podcast, you'll need: A overall topic or theme for your show, and a plan for the structure/format for your first few episodes A title, short description, and square cover art (3000x3000px jpg) for your show A way to record and edit audio so you can create MP3 audio files for your episodes (You'll want to use one microphone for each person, more on that later) Podcast hosting (an online hosting service (like Simplecast) for your audio files and an RSS feed so you can get your show into Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and other podcast apps & directories) While podcasting isn't a quick or easy way to make money, you can make money with a podcast by selling advertisments, getting sponsors or partners, asking people to support you directly through Patreon (or some other tipping service), selling services or products to your audience, and so on. While the majority of podcasts being produced currently do not make enough to provide a full-time living, that doesn't mean you can't make money with a podcast, and there are plenty of other valuable things that you'll get from podcasting, including personal development, new skills, friendships, and more. Podcasting is a great way to build an audience: You’ll become known as an authority in your field, you’ll learn more about what you podcast about, you’ll build new relationships and make new friends, and you’ll gain a better understanding of your audience and what they want. The most common podcasting mistakes are usually related to producing shows with poor audio quality, not clearly defining your goals for yourself or your audience, or expecting big results right away. Now that you've got the outline for what you'll need to do to start a podcast, all you need to do now is take action. Set aside some time for planning. Write out your goals and the topics for your first ten episodes. Set up your gear and record and edit a practice episode. It's easy to spend hours and hours reading tutorials and listening to other people talk about podcasting, but the best way to get better is to just start doing it yourself. For my backstory and more about why I'm starting this podcast, check out the trailer for this show. My guest for this first episode is Sean McCabe, who produces online courses for creative professionals at seanwes.com. Aaron: Let’s talk about how we met. It was at a Dribbble meetup in fall 2013. We got introduced and you said you wanted to start a podcast. I asked what it was going to be about, and you said design and creativity. Why did you want to start a podcast? Sean: I had a lot of experience with client work, especially in the design world, and I was starting up my own business, but I had a lot I wanted to share on client work and professionalism in general. The reason I hadn’t done it before that point was because I wanted to be out of client work before starting a podcast about it. I wanted to do a podcast where I talked about design, client work, and professionalism, all in the context of business and creativity. Aaron: At the time, I was very interested in learning about those things. When we started the podcast, you were—and still are—very focused on providing value to the listeners. I was still in learning mode. I was more interested in learning and I was less focused on providing value. I've learned that when you start a podcast, you need to think about providing something valuable to the people listening to you. Sean: Now, when you say providing value, what do you mean? What’s the alternative? Aaron: In a lot of podcasts, I see that they’re not focused on what they’re giving, it’s more like they’re just hoping for attention. They’re not thinking about what the audience is going to get out of listening. Sean: It’s kinda like, “We’re just gonna show up and we’re gonna talk,” but they’re not thinking about what they’re going to give the listeners in exchange for their time, or the reason they’re showing up and talking. Aaron: Exactly. You have to ask yourself: What is someone going to take away from this podcast? When you start with that question, it changes everything. Sean: For this episode, we’re talking about who you are, who I am, why we’re doing this, and how podcasts changed out lives. What people might not know is that you started with an outline. We’re starting off with who you are, how I fit into this, why someone should start a podcast, who is the show for, what topics you’re going to cover in future episodes, and at the end you have takeaways. So you’re coming into this asking yourself, “Why should someone listen to this? Who am I trying to reach, and what am I going to give them?” I like how you’re starting this. Most people just jump straight into the gear. “Oh, you want to start a podcast? Let’s talk about mics.” I like that you’re taking one step back even further than that, and asking, “Why are you doing this?” Good Reasons to Start a Podcast 1. You can build an audience Aaron: First, you can build an audience. You’ll become known as an expert in your field if you share what you’ve learned. We know Sean as an expert hand-letterer because he’s podcasted about it and written a whole course about how to make a living as a hand-letterer. I was doing a little reading yesterday in preparation for this show, and I came across an article about why you shouldn’t start a podcast. The post basically said, “Podcasts aren’t a very effective way to reach people.” A bunch of people left comments saying, “But we found and started trusting you because of your podcast.” So I do think podcasting is a very effective way to build trust with your listeners. Sean: It’s very intimate. I don’t know about you, I think you have pretty good mic technique, but I’m about three inches away from my microphone. How many people do you allow to be three inches from your ear? I’d think most of them are pretty close to you, so it does have this kind of intimacy. 2. You’ll learn more about whatever it is you’re starting a podcast about Sean: Hang on; I thought you had to be an expert to teach stuff on a podcast. Aaron: Would you call me an expert at podcasting? Sean: I think of you as one. Aaron: Right, but that’s mostly because I started a website about podcasting and you know I’ve worked on podcasts full time for over a year now. There are still so many things I don’t know about podcasting. There are so many more things I’m going to learn because I’m starting this podcast about podcasting. This applies to anything you start a podcast about: You’re going to learn more about it. How many episodes of the seanwes podcast have you done now, 160? Did you have any idea when you started of all the different topics you were going to cover? All the things you were going to learn about and share? Sean: No way. Not even close. I had a few topics prepared, but there was no way I had 160 episodes of information to share with people, all I did was start off with a commitment to show up and podcast. You don’t have to be an expert to start a podcast. Aaron: Knowing that you had to show up and podcast twice a week put you in a learning mindset; as you’re going through the week, you’re paying attention to things, you’re writing stuff down, and you’re thinking about what would be good to put in your podcast. Sean: It changes your mindset. I’m glad you brought up the learning thing. So many people think, “I shouldn’t start a podcast. I’m not good enough, I’m not smart enough, I’m not expert enough.” You’re saying start a podcast to learn. I’ve had my mindset changed because I started a podcast. Everything is an opportunity to teach something. You see the world in a different sense; this is something that I could teach. This is something I could bring to the show. 3. Starting a podcast will help you make new friends Aaron: Another great reason to start a podcast is you’ll make new friends. Sean and I met because he was interested in starting a podcast. It turned into a close relationship that has benefited me in so many ways. In fact, he built a whole online community around his podcast. Tell me a little bit about that. Sean: The Community is a group of people who are, essentially, entrepreneurs—people in various stages of wanting to forge their own path, starting their own business, do their own thing, freelance, sell products, or teach other people. Maybe they’re still in a day job, but they’re working towards that. The Community is a bunch of people who have similar mindsets of sticking with their values, professionalism, and encouragement. It’s a very positive atmosphere. We stream all of the shows on the seanwes network live to the Community. Every weekday we have a show, there’s a topic, and everyone comes together to discuss that topic. We also have the live chat and mobile app available 24/7, so there’s people constantly connecting and discussing things. Aaron: This all happened because you decided to start a podcast. I know you had Twitter and Instagram followers, and people who emailed you, and that’s all great, but think about how many people have met and become good friends because of your podcast. You’re one of my clients now, but I’ve met other Community members, including Adam Martin, that have become clients as well. I’ve met so many people just from this one podcast. If you think about providing value and you care about your listeners, even if you just have 20 listeners in the beginning, get to know them and open yourself up to growing those relationships. It can be life-changing. Sean: You were talking about number of downloads, or someone was saying that podcasting is not really effective; but podcasts are so engaging. It’s very intimate. If you have 20 listeners, that’s incredible. That’s 20 people that allowed you to come three inches from their ear. You probably don’t have that many people in your life that are willing to listen to you, so for the people just starting out, don’t get caught up in the numbers. I say show up every day for two years, and don’t expect to see any results in that time. I didn’t discover some of the best, and my favorite, podcasts and TV shows until at least two years into it. I didn’t listen or watch from the pilot episode, like maybe some people are doing with this show or TV shows. A lot of the ones that end up being my favorites have been around for a few years by the time I listen. I get excited and I go back and I binge listen or I binge watch all of the episodes and I’m really into it. Now, I’m engaged. I remember this one podcast, I went back and listened to all of it—I think it was 90 or 100 episodes. They had this community (this was before I had my own community) and I was ready to join. I was so on board with what they were talking about. By the time I caught up, he’d been doing it about two years, and he said, “We’re moving on. We’re going to be doing other things. We’re not going to be doing the podcast anymore, thanks for listening.” I was so disheartened. I felt so let down. I had just discovered it, it was so new to me. Of course for him, he’d been showing up for two years. It felt like he’d been doing it forever. That’s what it feels like when you’re a podcaster or you’re a blogger and you’re showing up and you’re not getting those downloads or you’re not getting those numbers. Even if it feels like you aren’t getting results or as many downloads as you'd like to have, keep going. Do it for the people that are going to discover you in two years. Aaron: Do it for the five people that are listening and really like what you’re saying. Sean: They’re your ambassadors! If you don’t care about those people because the numbers aren’t big enough, you’re never going to get there because those people are the ones that are going to spread the word. Aaron: That leads to a better understanding of the people in your audience. If you start a podcast with them in mind and engage with the people that are responding—having conversations and asking them questions—you’re going to start to learn what they’re struggling with, what they’re having a hard time with, what they like about your show, and maybe what they don’t like about it. If you’re open to that conversation, you can start to refine and tailor your content to the people giving you feedback. Sean, people think you read minds because they ask a question and then you actually listen. People in the chat go crazy and ask, “How’d you know I was thinking about that?” and you say, “Well, you asked the question yesterday.” The key to a successful podcast or blog is doing it for the reader, not just showing up and writing or talking about only what you want to write or talk about. Which makes total sense when you think about it; you’re not the one that’s going to be reading your blog posts, the other people are! You want to write or podcast about what they want to hear. Show Up for 2 Years and Don’t Expect Results Sean: I still have this mindset. We have hundreds of people in the Community, I have nearly a million downloads on the podcast, and I’m still expecting no results. To me, the seanwes podcast is just getting started—we’re only 18 months in. We haven’t even started yet. That’s where my mindset is. Are we scaring people away? Were we supposed to tell them to show up and do two episodes, not two years? Aaron: No, I think this is something people don’t think about. I’ll say that this is intimidating to me, showing up for two years. Even thinking about showing up every week for two years is intimidating. You start to doubt yourself, or at least I do. I think, “How am I going to come up with a great show every week?” You really just have to go for it. I’m going to do it; I’m going to spend the time to prepare, and show up and listen to the people that engage with me. If someone asks me a question in the chat, if someone sends me an email, I’m going to pay attention to that. I’m going to use that to fuel future episodes. I’m getting to know my audience, I’m building relationships. That’s why I’m podcasting. Sean: And if you don’t have the answer to a question, you’re going to go find out. You’re gonna learn. Aaron: That way, it benefits me, too. It’s a win/win situation, but it’s still scary. I know you’ve had struggles with showing up. You’ve shown up on a Tuesday and said, “Guys, this is hard today.” Sean: I don’t know what I’m talking about on tomorrow's show, but I’m gonna show up and figure it out. Aaron: The cool thing is that now you have this community of people, your audience, that you can go to. You can ask them, “What are you guys struggling with? What should I do a show about?” They’re gonna tell you, and you’ve got some options there. That’s way different than sitting alone in your room and wondering what you’re going to do a show about this week. It’s gotta be about the audience. It’s gotta be about providing value, and building relationships. Who Is This Show For? Aaron: This episode is titled How to Start a Podcast, but there are so many things to talk about and while I can't cover everything, I do want to give you an overview of what the process looks like, and what topics I’m going to cover in future episodes. This show is for anyone who wants to start a podcast, but also for people who already have a podcast and want to make their show better. There’s going to be some overlap for people who are interested in audio in general, because the skills I’ve learned from editing podcasts have helped me when making video, when recording interviews, bands, demos, etc. I’m going to be covering a lot of stuff like that, in addition to other things I think will be helpful to podcasters. Topics I’ll Cover On This Show 1. Gear You have to record yourself talking, so I’m going to be talking about microphones. Sean: I’m interested in hearing how you address that, because there’s always the interesting “quality vs cost” issue. Aaron: People should invest in great microphones, but I realize that’s not a reality for a lot of people, so I want to go over the options. Like, if you only have $100, here’s what you need to buy. 2. Recording I'll be convering how to set the levels right for your mic, what programs you can use, how to record interviews over Skype, etc. 3. Editing Aaron: How do you edit a show without making it sound all chopped up and unnatural? Should you edit at all? I know there are a lot of podcasters that don’t think you need to do much editing. I don’t agree with that. I don’t think you have to cut out every little bit of silence, or every filler word or mistake. People have a natural way of speaking, and that’s fine, but there are things that you can cut out. Editing is about respecting the listener—cutting out super long pauses, or things they don’t need to hear like coughs, etc. It’s about polishing. It’s saying to the listener, “I care about this enough to give you the listener the best version of this that I can.” Sean: A lot of people might think that edited podcasts are super highly produced and it doesn’t sound natural, but people often say they don’t even realize this show is edited, and you say that’s kind of the point. Aaron: If someone listens to something that I edited and they notice the edits, then I’m not doing a good job. Sean: How do you like that, Aaron? If you do your job well, no one knows you exist. Aaron: I’m good with that. I follow some of the Twitter accounts of the shows I edit, and nothing makes me happier than to see someone saying, “Oh my gosh, the Shoptalk Show sounds so good, they’re doing a great job.” They don’t ever mention me, but I know they’re talking about my work. They don’t know they’re talking about my work, but I know what the show sounded like before I did the editing, mixing and mastering, and it makes me happy. The point is to make your listeners happy. I’m going to be going into a lot of depth about editing content, mixing and mastering, plugins, etc. 4. Writing and Preparing Show Outlines Aaron: I’m also going to be doing some shows about writing and preparing show topics and outlines. I’d like to have Sean on the show to talk about that topic, because he does a lot of preparation for his shows. Sean, you said something a couple weeks ago: start with the takeaway in mind. That really resonated with me. What’s the takeaway? It could be anything from how to launch a WordPress blog to how to design a header image for your blog posts. When you start with a single idea—a takeaway—you can get a whole show out of that idea. Break it down, write a couple of headlines or bullet points, then expand on that. It turns into an outline, similar to what I have right now. Sean: We’ve gone pretty far off of this outline, had side discussions, and none of this is scripted. A lot of people don’t want to prepare their show because they think it’ll sound scripted. We’re not talking about writing every word, we’re just saying have a takeaway so it’s not just showing up, turning on the mic, and hoping we get something out of it. You actually have a purpose for being there, but that doesn’t mean that you can’t have these little explorations and adventures along the way. Podcasting doesn’t have to be about being ridged and lifeless. Aaron: I love those side rails. It’s natural. You don’t have to stick to the script, this is a conversation. In some ways, it’s a live performance. We do it live and we’re streaming to people right now. You should be flexible, but you have to prepare beforehand. You have to know what you’re going to talking about, and what you’re going to be providing to the listeners. Sean: You want to have these little magical moments of spontaneity, but you can’t have spontaneity without structure, because then you have chaos, you have anarchy. Plan, not 100%, but plan a good amount of it, then within that structure you can have spontaneous moments. 5. Writing Great Episode Notes Aaron: I’m also going to do a show about writing episode notes, since they're great for a lot of reasons. 6. Sticking With It & Showing Up Aaron: I’m also going to be doing some episodes about showing up and sticking with it. It’s important to show up consistently. So just to recast: This is a show for people who want to do podcast, or have started a podcast and want to make their show even better, whether that’s gear, workflows, mindset, or motivation. Q&A Q: What’s the single most common mistake people make when starting a new podcast? Sean: I actually answered this in the chat earlier, but I wanted to know if you had another answer. I guessed that you would say, “Not preparing beforehand.” Was I right, or do you have a different answer? Aaron: You’re right, but I want to expand on that a little bit. It’s actually two things. You do need to prepare and plan out your show, but you also need to learn enough about recording audio to make something that sounds good, or at least something that sounds ok. When you start a podcast, you only have one shot to make a good first impression. Sean: We’ve got a couple of questions that are related to this. Cory asks, “Is it more important to just get started, and iterate, or to get started right?” Sarah asks, “What is the level of audio quality that you consider the minimum to start?” There’s this balance of getting started with whatever you have vs. having one chance to make a good first impression. Where do you fall on that spectrum? Aaron: You do need to prepare for the show. Write an outline and start with an idea. Even if it’s just 10 minutes. Whatever you feel comfortable with: If you can talk about a subject or explore some ideas and give some value to the person who is going to listen, that’s good. The audio quality minimum that you need to meet is you need to have some kind of microphone that is not the built-in microphone on your laptop or Apple ear buds. Also, make sure you record in a room that doesn’t have a lot of echo. You need to record in a quiet room that’s as “dead” as possible. Sean: If you’ve got a laptop, even a closet will work, because the clothes will absorb the echo. Aaron: You need to record in a quiet place without a lot of background noise. Make sure you don’t have AC running, fans, dogs barking, etc… Try to record in the quietest place possible. You'll need to learn about setting input levels. Some USB microphones have gain knobs, some don’t, and then if you have an XLR microphone (like the Shure SM7B mics that we’re using), you need to learn how to set the input gain levels right on whatever interface you’re using, so that your levels aren’t too hot or too quiet. That’s the starting point: Have an idea of what you’re going to talk about and then be able to record some audio that doesn’t sound terrible. Sean: That’s a decent answer without going super deep, which I’m sure you can and will dedicate entire shows to answering. Q: If you’re coming at podcasting from blogging, how do you adapt your mindset to the new medium? Aaron: If you’re coming to podcasting from blogging, you’re in a good spot. If you have a blog post, you can adapt that content to a podcast very easily. You can take the topic and turn it into a podcast epiosde. You could even just read the whole blog post like a script. Some people will enjoy hearing you read your blog post even more than reading it themselves. Different people like to consume content in different ways. Q: How long should my podcast be? Why are so many shows about an hour long? Can shorter or longer shows work and reach big audiences? Sean: There’s no golden rule that says you’ve got to hit 22 minutes, or you’ve got to go an hour and a half for anyone to care. It’s different for everyone, it’s different for every show. My answer—and this is the same for newsletters, blogs, landing pages, podcasts, etc.—is make it as long as it needs to be. Don’t force it to be 20 minutes if you have more valuable stuff to say, and don’t force it to be more than an hour because you think that’s what the more successful shows do. Share it with people, that’s why we invented to pause button—they can watch it, listen to it, or consume it whenever they want. They can stop at any point. Give it all to them and let them consume it the way they want to. If you have a lot to share, make it long and if you don’t, make it short, but don’t worry about it. If you have valuable information, don’t worry about going over some arbitrary threshold. Aaron: There have been a few podcasters that have asked me to cut an hour-long show down to 20 minutes. My first question is why? Why would you make this shorter if there’s good stuff? Why not focus instead on making it be the best show it can be; including everything that’s valuable and discarding or editing out the things that aren’t? Sean: I know that’s a rhetorical question, but I think the answer in people’s heads is, “Well, because so-and-so does it.” The successful shows they listen to are 20 minutes long, so they think that’s how long a show should be. The people that are thinking they need to make an hour long show are listening to hour long shows that are successful, and they don’t know about the ones that aren’t. It’s just a skewed confirmation bias; it comes as a result of looking to other people and trying to imitate their success when really, you should just be making the show you need to make, with whatever you have to offer to your audience. Aaron: I know that this first episode is going to be longer because you and I have a lot to talk about. But it’s a lot different when you are doing a solo show, or depending on who your co-host is. Either way, focus on making it good and make it only as long as it needs to be. Q: Should I have a co-host? Sean: Coby asks, “Is it more effective to get a dialog going by having a co-host or guests?” Aaron: It is easier. When you started the seanwes podcast, you were thinking about doing it solo. I said that I thought it’d be easier for you if I joined to ask questions and bounce ideas off you and have a conversation. What’s helped me (with starting a solo show) is thinking about what questions I’ve already been asked in emails. I started an email newsletter a few months ago. I started writing content for it, writing blog posts, and I asked people for their questions about podcasting. Some people responded, so I saved those questions, and made a note to do shows about them. That’s kind of a dialog, but I do think it’d be a little easier if I had a regular co-host. Sean: It definitely makes it easier. That’s not to say solo shows can’t do well. I think they can, but you can’t really beat a super good dynamic between people with complimentary personalities and perspectives. It’s so engaging, it’s so fun to listen to. It’s also kind of hard to create that magic. Like with Ben and I, if you go back and listen to the earlier episodes of the seanwes podcast, we didn’t have that magic. It takes time to develop that and to be able to riff off each other. It’s going to take practice, but it definitely helps having someone else on, and it helps to have a structure. Like we said, leave room for people to tell stories. You don’t have to script it all. Maybe have some planned questions, and some sort of conclusion in mind so it’s more cohesive. Aaron: You and I have complimentary personality types. You’re a little more introverted, thoughtful, and you plan ahead more. I’ve picked up some of these good habits you have, but I’m much more likely to speak before I think. When you’re choosing a co-host, I think it’s important to keep those things in mind. I’ve joked with my friend Cory Miller before about being the co-host on his new podcast, but I actually don’t think I’d be a good fit for him because our personality types are so similar. I think he’d be better paired with someone who’s a little bit more introverted. Sean: It’s like any kind of partner, whether it’s marital, business, or co-host. You have to think about that, and treat it kind of like a marriage. Q: Should I do my podcast in seasons? Aaron: Brent asks, “Showing up is very important, but what are your thoughts on podcasting in seasons? What if I’m interested in sharing content through audio, but don’t see myself becoming a full-time podcaster? Would audio snippets be a good medium? (e.g. a blog post in audio format?)” Aaron: I say do whatever you want and whatever makes sense for you, but... I’ve been having an ongoing discussion with my band about consistency. I’ve been trying to push them towards putting out content on a regular basis, because I’ve seen how well it works for podcasters, for people who do video, and for other bands. A typical release cycle for bands is an album once every couple of years, but I see that the bands that stick in people’s minds and have really engaged audiences are the ones that are putting out stuff on a regular basis. I would love to be in a band that puts out a song every week, like Jonathan Mann, who put out a song every day. How much attention does he get for that? I mean, we have the technology! There is nothing holding us back from recording a song every week. Sure, it may not be super high quality and it might not sound like it was recorded in a professional studio, but by doing something consistently and showing up and putting it out on a regular basis, you get better at doing that thing. If you want to grow an audience, if you care about making a name for yourself and a show that’s successful, then you need to show up every week. Sean: There’s nothing holding you back except your lack of commitment, and your planning to have pauses or seasons where you’re not committing. People think in weekly terms. Their life resets, they watch TV shows every week, it’s how they think. If you’ve got a show that’s every other Wednesday, or the second Wednesday of the month, that confuses people. You don’t want your audience to have to think. You have to simplify it for them. Wednesday: new show. Tuesday: new show. That way, they know what’s coming. People crave this. They want reliability and routine. They want to listen to their podcast or watch their show. Once they’re in, they’re in. They’re hooked. You’re three inches from their ear. You have an opportunity to speak a message to them and provide value. If you want to grow an audience, show up consistently. Instead of doing what’s cool, or what other people are doing, or doing what’s easy, or planning on not showing up, how about start with a commitment to show up consistently? That’s where your audience is going to come from. If you have a season, and you stop providing value, everything resets. Sure, you’re going to have some die-hards that discover you later, but it affects their perception of your brand and how committed you are. Next Steps: Now that you've got the outline for what you'll need to do to start a podcast, all you need to do now is take action. Set aside some time for planning. Write out your goals and the topics for your first ten episodes. Set up your gear and make a practice episode. It's easy to spend hours and hours reading tutorials and listening to other people talk about podcasting, but the best way to get better is to just start doing it yourself. If you have any questions or want to say hi, you can send an email to aaron@thepodcastdude.com or leave a voicemail at 817-381-8219. Feel free to ask questions or just say hi. I'll respond as soon as I have a free minute. Finally, there's a fantastic blog post series from Simplecast called Everything You Need to Start a Podcast. I'd highly recommend bookmarking that and referring back to it as often as you need it. And remember, no one gets everything right the first time. You're starting on a journey, so forward progress and taking action is pretty much always better than perfection. Good luck and happy podcasting. Cool Stuff to Check Out: Recommended Gear: https://kit.com/thepodcastdude Podcast: https://thepodcastdude.simplecast.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/thepodcastdude Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/thepodcastdude Successful Podcasting: http://successfulpodcasting.com Simplecast Blog: http://blog.simplecast.com/

Sean did something amazing with his recent book. He open sourced it and is allowing people to write inside the book's world. But that's not the best part. Sean is giving away the copyright and allowing people to own the copyright and royalties to anything they create within his world. It pretty amazing! Hear Sean explain everything in today's episode below. In this Episode We Discuss: Why you need to author a book series to be successful Why Sean decided to open source his “Dream Engine” book world and allow anyone to write books in the world and own both the copyright and royalties What is serialized fiction, how does it work, and is it still popular like it was in 2012 Resources mentioned in this episode: Fiction Unboxed Project The Dream Engine - the Steampunk novel that was written during the Fiction Unboxed Project Sean's two published Amazon Serials, Monstrous & Z 2134 Write, Publish Repeat - a how-to book on writing SterlingandStone website Joanna Penn's website, the Creative Penn About Sean Sean has written more than a dozen books with the help of David Wright and Johnny B. Truant. Some of these books include his most popular series: Yesterdays Gone, The Beam, and Unicorn Western. Recently Sean wrote, The Dream Engine, with the help of Johnny B. Truant during a project they called Fiction Unboxed. Besides writing, Sean enjoys spending time with Sean his wife, daughter, and son. Connect with Sean: You can visit Sean's website: SterlingandStone.net Follow Sean on Twitter Connect With The Podcast: Sign up for the email list and I'll send you my free eBook, 5 Ways You Can Make Money as a Millennial Follow on Instagram: @moneymaker.xyz Follow on Twitter: @moneymakerxyz Enjoy the episode? Subscribe to the Podcast on iTunes and leave a 5 star review! The Podcast is also now available to subscribe to on Stitcher Radio.

Sean shares his strategies and systems for writing novels. He shares how he co-wrote more than 1.5 million words last year with his business partner, Johnny B. Truant, by writing out an outline that fleshes out his ideas on paper. Hear the systems he uses in today's episode below. In this Episode We Discuss: What got Sean interested in writing fiction Sean’s gift of telling stories through copywriting Sean’s system for writing online articles fast How and why Sean started a blog How Sean’s refined systems helped him produce more than 1.5 million words last year with his business partner Sean’s outlining system of writing out character descriptions, location scouting, and more How Sean writes out what he calls 300 word “Beats” which are description and background of each chapter in the novel Sean shares how he and his business partner wrote a complete story, from no idea to finished novel, in just 30 days Resources mentioned in this episode: Fiction Unboxed Project The Dream Engine - the Steampunk novel that was written during the Fiction Unboxed Project About Sean Sean has written more than a dozen books with the help of David Wright and Johnny B. Truant. Some of these books include his most popular series: Yesterdays Gone, The Beam, and Unicorn Western. Recently Sean wrote, The Dream Engine, with the help of Johnny B. Truant during a project they called Fiction Unboxed. Besides writing, Sean enjoys spending time with Sean his wife, daughter, and son. Connect with Sean: You can visit Sean's website: SterlingandStone.net Follow Sean on Twitter Connect With The Podcast: Sign up for the email list and I'll send you my free eBook, 5 Ways You Can Make Money as a Millennial Follow on Instagram: @moneymaker.xyz Follow on Twitter: @moneymakerxyz Enjoy the episode? Subscribe to the Podcast on iTunes and leave a 5 star review! The Podcast is also now available to subscribe to on Stitcher Radio. Can't wait for Thursday? Listen to Sean explain why he decided to open source his book, The Dream Engine, below.  

Evocative Words Work Wonders Give a mundane product an evocative name and you will dramatically increase its appeal. Humans are uniquely gifted to attach complex meanings to sounds. Some of these sounds are musical; pitch, key, tempo, rhythm, interval and contour. But much more specific in their meanings are phonemes, the building blocks of words. Cat and Kite begin with the same sound. Ignore, for a moment, that C and K are different letters. The phoneme is the sound, not the letter. The sound represented by the letters “ch” in chirp, cherry and cheerful is another phoneme. There are only 40 phonemes in the English language. If you want to get fussy, you can count the unvoiced “th” sound in with as a different phoneme than the voiced “th” in the. If you continue down that road, you can find as many as 44 different phonemes. But that's all. Forty-four sounds allow you and I to know each other's thoughts. The Bible opens and closes with stories about the importance of names. Genesis tells us that Adam's first task was to name all the animals. In the Revelation of John we read, “I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.” Names are important. This is a fact known to every cognitive neuroscientist. Nouns originate and are interpreted in a region of the brain just behind your left ear known as Wernicke's area, connected by the arcuate fasciculus – a high-bandwidth bundle of nerves – to another region slightly forward of your left ear known as Broca's area, where we attach the sounds we call “verbs” to the actions we need to name. Broca's area then coordinates the diaphragm, larynx, lips and tongue so that we can form the rapid succession of phonemes in that positively human display called speech. Information gathered by the eyes, muscles and skin is routed through Broca's area on its way to the dorsolateral prefrontal association area, the home of the visuospatial sketchpad*, the mind's eye, where we “see” things in our imaginations. All of this is connected to the ear. Yes, humans are uniquely gifted to attach complex meanings to sounds. And we are uniquely gifted to make those sounds, as well. All of this is well documented. Shape and Color are visual languages. Phonemes and Music are auditory languages. Painters use paint and brush. Fashion designers use cloth and scissors. Jewelers use metals and gemstones. Visual artists, gifted in the languages of Shape and Color, often expect their work to “speak for itself.” But it can't. If you will add to these visual languages an evocative name, the listener – your customer – will craft their own unconscious bond to the thing you have named. A well-chosen name focuses and accelerates the talent of the visual artist and gives that talent greater impact. A designer and a poet holding hands can reshape the world. Here's a 60-second radio ad built upon the evocative naming of visual products. SARAH: Christmas is coming! SEAN: And what could be better SARAH: than designer diamond earrings! SEAN: You've never seen ANYTHING like these. SARAH: From diamond Hugs and Kisses SEAN: two-hundred-ninety-nine dollars SARAH: to the fabulous hoops of the Renaissance Queen. SEAN: Twenty-five-hundred-thirty-nine dollars. SARAH: See them on our website. SEAN: The Diamond-Studded SUPERSTAR. SARAH: The Summer of Love. SEAN: Cinnamon Roll earrings! SARAH: Fairy Tale hoops. SEAN: Forever THIN. SARAH: Sparkling Springtime! SEAN: Pink CHAMPAGNE hoops SARAH: and Captured Hearts SEAN: Buried TREASURE hoops SARAH: [sexy] and the Diamond Negligee. SEAN: The Ocean Journey SARAH: and the Embassy Ball. SEAN: We have Splish-Splash earrings SARAH: and Drop-Drops! SEAN: Diamond Sunflowers SARAH: and The Four Seasons of Vivaldi. SEAN: Did you mention Snuggles and the Colors of Light? SARAH: No, you did. SEAN: When?...

CIA: Cinematically Informed Americans is a show on the Lucid Geek Speak channel of podcasts. Today we look at movie news, Netflix recommendations, geek news, discuss early Batman movies, etc.Right Click HERE and select save link asNetflix/Hulu Recommendations for Instant Streaming:Jordan:1.Trailer Park Boys2. The Immaculate Conception of Little DizzleFredd:1. MadmenSean:1.Cash Back2. (Hulu) The Following Taylor:1. Killer Clowns From Outer Space---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Commodore Schmidlapps - The Penguins not-so-great disguise from Batman: the Movie---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Sean: You can't honestly put that in your top 10.Fred: Yes, he can!Sean: Well, there's no penetration so I'm not watching it.Taylor: Well, that's something we could go in to.Sean: It is something we could go IN to, indeed.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Taylor: It's beautiful, It's inspiring!---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"One of the most important roles to cast was that of young Forrest, who would help set the tone for the whole film based on his performance. To find the right actor, Robert Zemeckis put the word out that he was looking for "a young Tom Hanks with light eyes and a quirky disposition." A young Mississippi boy by the name of Michael Conner Humphreys showed up at an open casting call in Memphis, Tennessee and fit the bill perfectly. His talent and natural ease with the material charmed everyone. During Humphreys' screen test, according to Robert Zemeckis, "He jumped off the screen when we saw him because he had a very different type of delivery."Michael Humphreys' unique dialect turned out to be a major contributing factor to making Forrest Gump work. Before Humphreys was cast, Hanks had not settled on how Forrest would talk throughout the film. "Then Jessica Drake, my voice coach, and I heard Michael Humphreys, who played the young Forrest Gump," explained Hanks. "He was from Mississippi up by Tennessee and he had this great vocal cadence with very particular characteristics, with hard 'Gs' in the middle of things. Like he said, 'sing-ging'. I listened to Michael a lot, she made linguistic templates and then I read the entire script to her. It took the better part of three weeks and by the end I was doing it without having to think about it." Source---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Back to the Future images with Eric Stoltz So weird---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Signs was released in 2002.Quick, lock the door!Maybe they weren't aliens at all: Check out this theory which we will discuss on the next episodeClick here to read a possibly more accurate interpretation---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Best M. Night Movie!---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Tremors 4: Balls With Legs---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------The Invention of Lying---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Taylor: We can all agree that Ghost Rider is the greatest thing made by humanity ever---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------So, so bad.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Shark Repellant---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Blew. Him. To. Pieces.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------The joke Sean referenced was in fact not about Hitler, but about Lincoln being assassinated. The crowd, however, did act as if he made a Hitler joke.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Here's Johnny!

CIA: Cinematically Informed Americans is a show on the Lucid Geek Speak channel of podcasts. Today we look at top 10 movies lists for all our hosts, Netflix recommendations, geek news, etc. Right Click HERE and select save link asNetflix Recommendations for Instant Streaming:Jordan:1. Butter2. Freaks and Geeks Fredd:1. Valhalla Rising2. UndeclaredChase:1. Merlin2. Robin HoodSean:1. Man From Earth2. House of Cards---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Sean: Yeah, but the third one has the part where the kid points to his dick.Jordan: Look out for those Easter Eggs!---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Jordan: Next one I have here is another personal favorite of mine and I can watch it at any time: Killer Clowns From Outer Space.Fred: Wow. It's going to be that kinda party.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Sean: Earth Girls Are Easy may be the only movie where Geena Davis is hot. (proceeds to emphasize about 5 times lol)Sean was right!--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Where the Buffalo Roam - Starring Bill Murray---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Sean: I didn't think we were going to get any dick sucking of Wes Anderson until we got Shay in here.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Sean: How are have you gotten in the Walking Dead Chase?Chase: Volume 3 or 4.Sean: Goddammit Chase!---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Sean: Oh, Land of the Dead is the one where the Zombies were fucking playing instruments.Still ridiculous---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------The kid from Near Dark and Teen Witch---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Fredd: (Star Wars) written by a fourteen year old with down syndrome.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Chase: There is only one Return, and that is Return of the King. (Indeed!)---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Just weird.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Fredd's shelter from Zombie apocalypse (Apparently, he's not worried about food)---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Patricia Arquette in Lost Highway---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Fred: I have Akira tattooed on my body.Sean: You do? (pause) You do!---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"George Lucas originally planned to film an adaptation of the novel The Hobbit. Unable to secure the rights, he wrote Willow, which shares many similarities with J.R.R. Tolkien's celebrated novel, and its sequel, The Lord of the Rings."---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Prolapse will never be stricken from the record!Sean speaks the truth! (watch it's mouth about 10 seconds in)---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Jennifer Lawrence hottest actress in HollywoodSean says, "she's adequate."---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Kevin Smith Podcasts---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Gambit vs Nightwing---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Stardust -  Four thumbs up from Sean and Chase---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------He wasn't even supposed to be there that day!Watch full movie on amazon streaming for 1.99Click here---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------On Netflix InstantClick Here---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Two things give Chase a boner: Dark Elves and GambitKeep that in mind Mrs. G---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Final Cut(Great concept!)---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Amanda Sifried---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Magnificent SevenClone Wars - Bounty Hunters---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Lobo (first appeared in Omega Men)---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Fred: (Water world) worth the price of admission to watch Kevin Costner drink his own pee!---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Flight of the Navigator---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Proof that Jennifer Garner is an uptight bitch---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------