Podcasts about napa sonoma

This week, Michael (in his official co-hosting debut) and I are sitting down with Mark McWilliams, Co-Owner of Arista Winery in Healdsburg CA (Sonoma County). Listen to our heartfelt and hilarious conversation, as we sip 2 beautiful wines while the sun sets and harvest moon rises in the vineyard around us. (Poor us). Mark is an enthusiastic storyteller who shares:How his family came from Texarkana, TX to Sonoma CountyThe ups and downs of starting and owning a winery How NOT competitive the wine industry is A sad but amazing story about their first harvest and a special human Ulises Valdez (read more about him here)What's an Appellation and why does it matter?How there is an “Ocean of shitty Chard” on the planet (his words, I agree) The concept of “Tension” in wineHis thoughts on the HOT TOPIC of natural wine (not NATURAL wine)Check out Arista's website to be a part of their “A List” and get in line for all allocation of their exquisite wines. If you are visiting Napa/Sonoma, I highly recommend you book a visit to Arista (and tell them you heard about it on Sip With Nikki!)If you need a unique and delicious wine for Thanksgiving try my Sollevato Wines...(yes I'm biased, I make it)! Use code PODLISTENER for 10% off your order. I can ship to most states in the US!You NEED some Olives and Olive Oil from our awesome sponsor American Olive Farmer. Use code SipWithNikki for $10 off your order!If you'd like to Support the Podcast, you can buy me a glass of wine and get a shoutout on a future episode.Please leave a RATING or a REVIEW (on your podcast listening platform), or thumbs up and subscribe (on YouTube!)Questions? Comments? Guest requests? nikki@sipwithnikki.com

If you are dealing with vine mealybug in your vineyard, you are not alone. Kent Daane, Cooperative Extension Specialist at the University of California Berkley studies different types of mealybug populations across the globe. Kent covers organic and conventional strategies, ways to increase the presence of generalist and specialist natural predators, and the importance of establishing refugia for beneficials. His latest work focuses on area-wide management tactics. Looking to the European Grapevine Moth eradication program as an example, Kent sees an opportunity to decrease vine mealybug populations through neighborhood driven monitoring, trapping, coordinated sprays, and mating disruption. Resources:         119: Vine Mealybug 101: Species Identification, Lifecycle, and Scouting to Create an IPM Program 130: The Biological Control of Vine Mealybug Using Mealybug Destroyers and Anagyrus Wasps Biology and management of mealybugs in vineyards Ecology and management of grapevine leafroll disease Impacts of Argentine ants on mealybugs and their natural enemies in California's coastal vineyards Insecticides for a mealybug and a carpenter moth on vine trunks, 2023 In-season drip and foliar insecticides for a mealybug in grapes, 2023 In-Season Drip and Foliar Insecticides for a Mealybug in Grapes, 2021 Kent Daane Mealybug transmission of grapevine leafroll viruses: an analysis of virus–vector specificity Sustainable Control tools for Vine Mealybug UCCE Napa Viticulture Extension Leaf Hopper site Vineyard managers and researchers seek sustainable solutions for mealybugs, a changing pest complex Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] Craig Macmillan: Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with Vineyard Team. Our guest today is Kent Daane. He is a Cooperative Extension Specialist with the University of California, Berkeley, and he works primarily out of the Kearney Agricultural Research and Extension Center. And today we're going to talk about a number of topics. Thanks for being on the podcast, Kent. [00:00:17] Kent Daane: Craig, thanks. I'm happy to be here. [00:00:20] Craig Macmillan: Let's dive in on one pest that everybody's interested in, continuing to be interested in, and you may have some new insights or newer insights on this. Let's start with mealybug management. Kind of what's the state of the art in that topic right now? [00:00:33] Kent Daane: Yeah, that's been the number one question I've been getting for many, many years now. It is an invasive pest. We know it came in, probably being brought in by a grower down in Coachella Valley. It has since spread into the San Joaquin Valley, Central Coast area where you are, Napa Sonoma, and it's been found now in Oregon. Just like Napa, Oregon has attempted an eradication program. And probably just like Napa, most likely it's not going to work. It's a very, very difficult insect to kill 100%. I mean, I can come up with all kinds of different programs, soft programs, hard programs, expensive programs, inexpensive programs, where I can suppress that insect pest. It's very difficult to remove it from a vineyard. And that becomes important when you think about the kinds of damage we're worried about in Central Coast wine grapes. Pretty much anywhere where they're looking at grape quality. But especially in the cooler regions. So, this insect, this mealybug, is one of many mealybug species. that is a vector of grape leaf roll associated viruses. And this is the primary reason it grows to such high pest status. So for the most part, the growers can knock its levels down far enough that it's not in the grape clusters or it's rarely found in the grape clusters. That's more of an issue for table grape growers. It's a cosmetic pest. When you look at some of the Regions in the San Joaquin Valley where they're growing a lot of table grapes Kern, Tulare, Kings, Fresno, counties, there's enough heat accumulation and these grapes are harvested early enough in the season that they can still build up their Brix. They can still get a very good grape to market. Even when there's some vinely bug on the vine, they just don't tend to be as impacted by this leaf roll pathogen as our wine grapes. When you get into regions like San Luis Obispo, Napa, Monterey, Oregon, where they really are trying to hold those grapes on the vine for a longer period of time, trying to build up the bricks levels. That's where this. pathogen causes so much damage. [00:03:06] Craig Macmillan: most of our growers are already going to be familiar with this, but what kind of damage does the vine mealybug cause? It's so, so terrible. [00:03:12] Kent Daane: So the vine mealybug, besides being a vector of this pathogen, is also a direct pest of the grapevine. It can feed on the roots, on the trunk, on the leaves, and in the fruit. When this first hit California, we were working on it primarily as a San Joaquin Valley pest. growers that were putting on, you know, the products of the day dimethylate, lanate. If they were missing , the, target window where that pest was exposed, we would see thousands and thousands of mealybugs, not just per vine, but sometimes a thousand millibugs per leaf. It was causing defoliation. It was causing the berries to raisin on the vine. In South Africa, populations were getting so heavy. It was killing the vines themselves. How many people out there 20, 30 years ago were spraying so many neonics as we're saying today? We weren't doing that. now really, we were spraying for leaf hoppers as our number one pests followed by mites in case there was a flare up. It changed what we were doing in terms of pest management. In fact there's a group of us working internationally. Not just on the vine mealybug, but other mealybug species, because we've seen vine mealybug, grape mealybug, citrus mealybug, all becoming more problematic over the last decade. And we're, asking that question, why? What has gone on? And one of the thoughts we've got, not yet shown, but one idea is that we just sprayed so many of these, these newer chemicals that the mealybugs are developing resistance, The natural enemies are not, and we're seeing an escape of some of these mealybug species in now a, to them, a pesticide lessened environment. [00:05:10] Craig Macmillan: speaking of biological control, so this is an invasive pest, came from outside the U. S. That's the kinda the classical biological control problem. the pest comes, but its natural enemies don't come with it. there are some natural enemies of vine mealybug in the United States. [00:05:24] Kent Daane: Yes, they are, and I don't want to go too deep in the weeds on this, but this is new, very exciting to me. I did an importation program, that's a classic biocontrol program, where we go to the pests, origin, we look for natural enemies and we bring those back to the United States. Growers can't do that. It's got to go into quarantine. We have to study those natural enemies. Sometimes for years to make sure that they're not going to do any harm. The classic example people think about is I've got a problem with rats. And so I bring in a weasel, the weasel kills all the rats, and then starts going after my chickens. We don't do that anymore. Classic biocontrol is now much more modern. We've got all kinds of protective barriers against making a mistake. In fact, I think that we've gone a little bit too far. I think we're overly cautious. Bringing this back to the Vine melaybug, I imported material from Europe, from Israel, from Egypt, and from South Africa. We were finding mostly the same species in most of these different regions. The two most important species at that time were called Anagyrus pseudococci, which is The well known parasitoid that you can purchase from insectaries. The other one is Coxydoxinoides peregrinus, no common name on these insects. Both are established in California. When I did this work, we noticed a difference between the anagyrus near species Pseudococci that we were getting in Sicily and Spain with the material that we were getting that had already been established from Israel and what we're finding in northern Italy. Working with a taxonomist, Sergei Trapitsin he found some significant differences between these. And later on after both were imported in the United States determined that these were two species, one still Anagyrus pseudocoxi and one Anagyrus vladimiri. So sometimes you'll see insectaries selling Anagyrus vladimiri and you think, Oh, I want that. That's different. It is different, but both are established in California. We're actually going to do a followup study. now in collaboration with this international group to find out what we've got in California. I suspect we've got both. Now, why is this exciting? Because at the time we were doing this work, we felt like the parasites were different, and we felt that these different groups that we were importing, maybe one had co evolved with the citrus mealybug, And the other with the vine mealybug. And we had already done some work with the vine mealybug, molecular work, looking at its relationship to each other around the world. and their names are, scientific names would be citrus mealybug, planococcus citri. Vine mealybug, we knew as planococcus ficus, which means, Ficus tree, fig tree. And we were showing that this group was, they had an outlier and ours was the outlier. And then working with this international group, they said, look, back in the fifties, there was a planococcus vitis. And I think what you've got, what we've got on vines, is the vine mealybug. But not in Iran and Iraq at that time. And, and maybe in that Mediterranean region Israel, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Turkey the Mesopotamian region, I think is what it is. Maybe there are some parasites there that we didn't have. Certainly, my colleague in Egypt and more parasites than we were finding in Europe. We just weren't able to get them all to establish in colony in quarantine. So it opens up the window that, that maybe there's something still out there. At this point in time, I say in all the countries where vine mealybug is reported as a problem, that's most of Europe Mexico, South America South Africa. We have the best of those parasites. We just want to delve deeper into what are we seeing in Turkey? How does that match up with what we know is in Egypt? And I do have colleagues in Iran. It's just harder for me to go there. [00:10:09] Craig Macmillan: right, of course. so this makes me think, is it possible that we have mixed populations of these mealybugs in California on the same plant, so it's different areas? [00:10:17] Kent Daane: So that's the project we're working on with this international group. What we decided to do in a three part approach is to first find out what everyone's got. The assumption is that in South America, In the United States, North America, we have got single invasion events. Our guess is that it arrived in the U S in Coachella and Mexico at the same time. We're pretty sure that the population they have in Peru is from California Yeah, they were bringing nursery wood in and lo and behold, they found vine mealybug. We went down to look at a nomatode problem to be honest with some UC California researchers. And we found that they had some mite problems at the same mites that we've got in North American California. So they were probably not being very cautious in what they were importing. So we're assuming that South America's got this California group which came from Israel. We know Israel and Egypt have something very similar, but it's different than most of Europe. South Africa is similar to Portugal and Spain, which makes sense with the trade routes that were going on in the 1960s. What we're guessing is that The European groups, there probably are, there's reported failures of vine mealybug mating disruption in some European areas. And we think that probably is this other mealybug that is probably in Turkey. So it's all very exciting to me, kind of delving deeper into the weeds on this. But the first part of this international group, again, a great group of people, Europe, South America our first part is what do we all have? Our second part is what we're doing a grower survey that we actually sent to the vineyard team and they spread out to some growers as well. What are, what are growers using to control the mealybug? Because maybe with some of the, we find out what it is and maybe growers are working harder to control our vine mealybug than say that the fig millebug which appears to be what they've got in most of Europe. Remember when I started the foreign exploration when I was in Spain growers would tell me yeah we've got the vine millebug but it really is not much of a pest. Citrus millebug on vines is more of a pest. Well they probably have that fig mealybug but [00:13:01] Craig Macmillan: Ah, [00:13:01] Kent Daane: You know, taxonomically, it looked to us like the vine mealybug.And I hope I'm not throwing all these things out and it's confusing. So, second part, that is, the survey. What do you have and what are you using to control it? And if it matches up that, yeah, what we've got is the one that's more difficult, that fills in a lot of boxes. Third and fourth part are now looking at the natural controls. What parasites are you getting coming off of this? What parasites are in your region? And how do they respond to the pheromones that we know are out there? So if they're not, if they're responding to both citrus and vine, maybe that's an indication that it's this other group. If they're not responding at all, or weakly, yeah, we've, we've got three or more distinct species. And we can't tell them apart, but maybe the parasites can. [00:13:56] Craig Macmillan: this is kind of a practical question. hoW do you monitor parasitic wasps? They're tiny. They live in refugia. They then come out and plant their eggs in their host. that seems like a really hard thing to do. [00:14:10] Kent Daane: That's an absolute fantastic question. So let's look at that most common parasite, Antigyrus Pseudococci slash Vladimiri. So what we found over the years is that it does a great job on mealybugs that are exposed in the fruit, on the leaves, on the cane. By the end of the season, if you're not putting on a lot of contact chemicals, you're getting greater than 40 percent parasitism. Very easy to see, [00:14:43] Craig Macmillan: Right. [00:14:43] Kent Daane: doesn't do very well against the mealybugs under the bark, because it's got this searching behavior where it's got to get on top of the mealybug, determine how big it is, do I want to put a an egg that's not fertilized in that, which would be a male, and they need smaller mealybugs for that. Do I want to put an egg which is fertilized? In that, that will become a female parasite that needs larger host. [00:15:09] Craig Macmillan: the same insect, the same parasite has the ability to do either. [00:15:13] Kent Daane: Yes. [00:15:15] Craig Macmillan: Wow. [00:15:15] Kent Daane: again, this is really a neat subject and I hope I don't bore the audience too much. But, a lot of these parasites that become important for mealybugs they have this little sac, so you've got your oviduct going to your ovarioles, in the female. And right around the oviduct area, before it splits into the two ovarioles, you've got this little sac called the spermatheca. unlike humans, where the sperm goes in and Seeks out the eggs and fertilizes it. The sperm go in and the female parasite stores them in the spermatheca. And then as the eggs are mature and ready to go down, oviduct and get ready to be oviposited into the mealybug, the female decides to fertilize the egg or not fertilize it. And if it's fertilized, it becomes a female. If it's not fertilized, it becomes a male. And that allows her to determine what the host size is, because the females are bigger than the males. And so she will walk up and down. and size that mealybug and say that this, this mealybug is a good enough size that this is worthy for me to put a fertilized egg in and that will become a female. Or a second in store mealybug, she'll say, this really isn't that good of a mealybug host. So I'm going to put An unfertilized egg, and that will become a male. And that was, going back to this Anagyrus Vladimiri versus Pseudococci, that was the most important difference that we found in this Sicilian and Spanish group of Anagyrus, was that they would oviposit and put females in smaller hosts than the male. earlier parasite which probably evolved on the citrus mealybug. So going back to this question because I do go off on different tangents. How do you sample for these things? So it's really easy to find a mummified mealybug on a leaf. But remember what we're doing. We're spraying now a lot of Movento and we're spraying a lot of the Neonics regardless of its Admire, Platinum, or generic derivative. They're all good materials. and maybe you're putting on an IGR like a plot, again, all good materials, Assail, all good materials. What they tend to do is work really good against the mealy bug, which is exposed on the leaves. Our systemic materials are really good at going out to the leaves. Our contact materials, our IGRs, the neonics, that are contacts kill the mealybug that's exposed. All of these materials do less of a good job with the mealybug underneath the bark. we're not getting a true indication of what these parasites can do because we're killing the host that's the best location for them to attack. So that means to really find out what's going on, you got to strip bark oftentimes. So now you're looking at parasitism in that region of the vine that the parasite doesn't like to be. Now, if we add to this, this other good parasite, which is the coccidoxoenoides peregrinus, we really liked to bring this in because it attacks the very, very small stages of the mealybug, the first and the second instar. It's sometimes a small third, but really it's focused on the second instar. [00:19:05] Craig Macmillan: Got it. [00:19:06] Kent Daane: It's in California. You can find it, but it's really hard to find out what impact it's got because it will parasitize the mealybug and will cause the parasitized mealybug to die. to feel sick and to seek out some area for protection because the anagyrus if you see that mealybug parasitized on the leaf causes that mealybug to kind of glue itself down to the leaf You have to flip that thing to get it off the leaf. A mummy is a dead mealybug which sticks to the leaf. The coccydox anoides causes the mealybug to find a place of protection because it doesn't stick it to the leaf. So it often times goes to the trunk, or goes to the stem, and eventually falls off the vine, and will pupate down into the ground. And so to sample for that one, you have to collect them as first or second instars live, bring them back to the insectary, and rear them out to the parasite, which is just really a lot of work hard to do. so these things are far more difficult to do. Sample four, then going out and counting, you know, aphid parasites, which are just out there as little brown mummified aphids. [00:20:29] Craig Macmillan: it sounds like this would play a role in my timing of my insecticide applications, whether it's Spirotetramat or Neonic or One of the programs that I think is common is to have spirotetramat on top and have a myothiamethoxam soil applied. Does that sound right? [00:20:47] Kent Daane: Yeah, that sounds right. I mean, they're both good products and they're doing what they're supposed to do. they're killing the mealybug. And when the timing is right, they're getting out there before the mealybug. So as the mealybug is going out towards the leaves. You know, they're probably doing a better job than the parasite will do on its own. Now, if you are an organic grower and you can't use those materials, then timing does become a little bit more critical because you're putting on, oftentimes, organic materials every 10 to 14 days because they've got a shorter residual. So on those you may want to, you know, work your timing around to avoid to give it a window of opportunity some of these natural enemies. There you're looking on the leaf, you're looking for mummified mealybugs. You know, are, do I have some of these good natural enemies in the field? You're looking for the mealybug destroyer, or one of the other beetles. Green lancelings are also doing a pretty good job. So you're monitoring those. And maybe you're deciding, I've got a lot of good activity maybe I should wait to put on pyganic or one of the other materials, which is broad spectrum give the other parasites a chance, a cycle, to see what their impact's going to be on that millibug population. Or maybe you're going to leave every fifth row unsprayed to let the parasites come back in and then hit that row later. So you've got a chance for those natural enemies to move the just sprayed vines. [00:22:22] Craig Macmillan: That was going to be my next question is what is the refugee situation for these parasites? Do they come into the vineyard, do their thing and then leave? Do they come in when there is host and then they hang out in the vineyard for the rest of the season? Do we know? I'm just thinking about ways that I can preserve, conserve those parasites as much as possible so that they're there when I need them. [00:22:45] Kent Daane: That's a great question, Craig. And let's break this apart into two different areas. Let's talk about First, the generalist predators that I just mentioned, the green lacewings, a good mealybug predator against the smaller mealybug stages. A lot of the things we do to enhance natural enemies will enhance generalist predators. So that's where your cover crops come in. That's where your pollen and nectar come in. You'll increase generalist predators. Ladybird beetles, green lacewings, minute pyre bugs, those can all attack and kill. That same group of cover cropping that brings in the gentleness predator may have little impact on the specialized parasitoids. Things like the anagyrus and the coccidocsinoides, what they want is the mealybugs. And not all mealybugs will do. They really want the mealybugs that are better hosts for them. So, they tend to get everything they need out of that pest population. They can host feed. They can stick their ovipositor into a mealybug, turn around and feed on some of that exudate, some of what's being bled. The mealybug creates honeydew. That honeydew, instead of trying to plant a cover crop for honeydew, that honeydew serves as a food to increase the longevity of those parasitoids. And as the mealybug density goes down, the parasite numbers should go down as well. Now there are different kinds of food sprays that we hope to look at that oftentimes do help increase both generalists and perhaps specialist natural enemies. [00:24:46] Craig Macmillan: Hm. [00:24:46] Kent Daane: The number one thing you do to to enhance beneficial insect numbers is to watch the broad spectrum insecticide sprays or to time them where you're not spraying, you know, all 100 acres at the same time, but you're leaving a refugia so they can move back in. [00:25:08] Craig Macmillan: Interesting. So, I might be looking at something and saying, okay, I am going to have to take some action here. I'm hitting an action threshold but not pull the trigger on the whole thing. leave one area for a little bit, and then can you come back and treat that later, so that you're preserving some of these folks, and then they can come back on the other side, and find a balance between the chemical and the biological. Mm [00:25:31] Kent Daane: Right. A balance, a delay might just be 10 days, might be 20 days. We don't want to miss our spray window, but remember, Most of the natural enemies are winged as adults, whereas the female mealybug is never winged. Fairly slow, fairly thestle. So that allows for those beneficials to come back in. And if you're a large grower this just happens over over the course because you can't spray 100 acres in a day. [00:26:07] Craig Macmillan: Right. Right. Fascinating. Are growers starting to adopt, in your experience with the folks that you work with, are growers starting to adopt these kinds of timings and techniques and methods? [00:26:19] Kent Daane: I think growers are constantly adopting, improving, changing one of the common misconceptions when I talk to students or people who just don't don't know how to farm or farmers is that farmers really don't want to spray. Spraying costs money. it is an added expenditure, added time, added worry. So they'd much rather, you know, go back 50 years when we didn't have all these invasive insects from Vine mealybug to Virginia Creeper growers are always seeking out how to improve the insecticide materials they've got, how to reduce the insecticide applications they have to make. And that does include natural enemies, mating disruption. What it comes down to is just costs. So oftentimes there's a trade off. If you're going to use mating disruption, you may not be doing three applications of an insecticide for vine mealybug. Maybe it's one insecticide plus vine mealybug mating disruption. If you're organic and you're releasing beneficial insects and spraying every other week. Maybe you don't have the cost for mating disruption. So these are all decisions that individual growers have to make. Obviously we've got some growers in some regions can spend 300 per acre for mealybug control. Other growers simply cannot do that because of the value of, their product at the very end. [00:28:03] Craig Macmillan: Right. This is kind of a natural lead in to something I wanted to touch on, and that is the Virginia Creeper leafhopper that's found on the North Coast. That also an invasive, correct? Came in from outside. [00:28:15] Kent Daane: It is invasive to some extent. It is not invasive like the vine mealybug is from. The Mediterranean region Virginia creeper most likely is, is North American. But yes, it was never really a California leafhopper pest. It was, no England, Canada. Pest that then went into Washington, then went into Oregon, that then came into California. interestingly, the, leafhopper that I worked on for so many years the variegated grape leafhopper probably North American, probably had a different avenue, probably came up from the south, from Mexico, Texas, to Arizona, to California. So Some of our invasives are close relatives. [00:29:07] Craig Macmillan: Interesting. what's the difference in damage that's caused by the Virginia creep leaf hopper and the the variegated leaf hopper. [00:29:17] Kent Daane: So they're, they're very similar. I think that the grape leafhopper is the one we've been dealing with for the longest time and has been relatively mild compared to the other two. The variegated grape leafhopper When it first came into the San Joaquin Valley, it could defoliate vines. It had three to four generations per year. [00:29:42] Craig Macmillan: Oh, wow. [00:29:43] Kent Daane: It seemed to be much more damaging than the grape leafhopper. Virginia creeper leafhopper, now in northern California, making its way south. So it's gotten to the middle of the state. It's in Napa, Sonoma, Sacramento. I have not seen it. Heard it reported in the Fresno area. Oh, it has been reported in Fresno. But I'm not saying it causes much damage here. We really don't get many leaf hopper reports for damage here, except for organic growers. And that's because all the sprays for vine mealybug. Most of those vine mealybug sprays are very good against the leaf hoppers. Where I have seen it as a pest. It's been mostly in wine grapes. Mostly in the cooler regions of the state. Mostly controlled by conventional insecticides. There are programs organic materials registered for Virginia creeper that I think have done a fairly good job. But it, it does get out of hand. And I think for all these leaf hoppers with organic materials, what happens is that The organic products tend to not work well , against the leaf operant in the egg stage or the leaf operant in the adult stage. So timing is very important. You want to get those materials on. when egg hatch is nearly complete and when you've got mostly first and second instars out there. That's because most of our organic products tend to impact these pests by either being a desiccant like the soaps that dry it out or a suffocant like the oils that clog the spiracles. And so the the, adults just fly away from that tractor rig as it's coming down. The eggs are protected inside the leaf itself, in their little clusters for the Virginia Creeper. And the larger insects can, they're just more mobile. So it's hard to kill them. So timing becomes relatively critical with these insects. I've not worked directly with Virginia creeper other than hosting Houston Wilson did his graduate work in my lab and really focused on, on the parasites of this insect. Lucia Varela, now retired, did focus on looking at the different insecticides and she's got a nice summary article which is on Monica Cooper's website. It talks about the different insecticides, U C cooperative extension Napa County. And she's got a website that goes into materials for organic growers for Virginia creeper leaf hopper. I think that's where I saw. that information posted. And what Houston did was he just looked at and tried to improve the Enneagrus. So we get those two confused. The Lilybug parasite is Anagyrus. The Leafhopper parasite is Enneagrus. The two names sound pretty similar, but one is an inserted family and one is a Mimerit. Or a fairy fly, fairy winged fly. They're some of the smallest insects known. So, [00:33:03] Craig Macmillan: Wow. So, we are continuing to look at these new parasites, how they're performing, we're learning a lot more about them, and we're learning a lot more about timing of different kinds of sprays around their life cycle. [00:33:17] Kent Daane: Yeah, what Houston was trying to do was to understand why parasitism against the Virginia creeper leafhopper was against all the leafhoppers. Why parasitism was relatively low. So I was working with Danny Gonzales and Sergei Tripitsin, And just mentioning to the taxonomist, Sergei, that it seemed like there were differences amongst these Enneagris samples that we were releasing. And I had happened to save all of the material that had died. So I sent that to Sergei, and Sergei looked at these things closely and then said, look, we've got a complex of parasites. And he named Enneagris erythronureae. After the species that was most commonly attacking variegated grape leafhopper, which is Erythronere variabilis. There was another one, and he called a Negris tryptocova, which was named after his wife's father's family and he said that was the better looking one of the group. And there was one that just didn't do that much. And he named that after me, a Negris Dana. And so that one we thought was the one attacking the western grape leaf hopper most commonly. And it was being found more commonly in the riparian zone. So that's 20 years ago, fast forward to our new invasive leaf hopper, the Virginia creeper leaf hopper, which is again coming down from Canada to Washington to Oregon to California. Well, it ends up that the Enneagris deni is very important attacking that leaf hopper. So Houston was working out the relationship of these three parasites against these three leaf hoppers and trying to understand if he could manipulate their numbers to improve biocontrol. He looked at hedgerows, he looked at augmentative releases or inoculative releases, and we're still curious to see if that can't be improved even. [00:35:30] Craig Macmillan: That's fantastic. Another topic that I wanted to touch on, because it's a really cool idea, and I think we'll have applications across a lot of things eventually, and that is area wide pest management strategies. And I know that you've done a lot of work in this area from the beginning, really, of kind of the concept. What is an area wide pest management strategy? Management program. What does it look like? What can it what is its goal? How does it operate? What kind of success we've seen so far? [00:35:59] Kent Daane: Yeah, that's a fantastic question. It's a topic I'm really excited about and let's think about it when we think about the European grapevine model. that was another invasive insect, It was found in California, it was found in Chile around the same time. So you've got this invasive insect, and the state of California deemed this important enough to have an eradication program. [00:36:22] Craig Macmillan: Oh and just real quick. What kind of damage does grapevine moth do? [00:36:26] Kent Daane: So the European Greenvine Moth it'll feed on the vine, but it gets in the fruit clusters. think of the omnivorous leaf roller One of those, one of our tortricid pests that can really cause damage to the grape a number of generations per year, a lot of different possibilities where it might come from in terms of a host plant material. So it can be very problematic. It would require a spray every single year, an additional spray for a tortricid pest, if it were to establish. [00:37:00] Craig Macmillan: one the big issue here is that it attacks the berries directly [00:37:03] Kent Daane: absolutely. [00:37:04] Craig Macmillan: Okay. So that's a, that's a serious problem. [00:37:07] Kent Daane: No, no, the, it, it causes mold and rot and everything else once it gets in there. So, you know, two or three doesn't seem like a lot. You just think, well, berry can go to crush, but that berry will get all kinds of bunch rot. not a good fruit. So when you think about the eradication program, where there was monitoring everywhere in the state. When you think about the eradication program, where when they found this pest through pheromone traps, and then they did a ground search to find out where it was. And then there was a coordinated investigation. Effort to spray the right materials, to use mating disruption, to go after it in all of the adjoining areas. those eradication programs are very intense. Area wide control programs. So, let's think about Vine mealybug, which is now in most vineyards. We're still approaching this on an individual grower basis. We might have one grower using mating disruption, because they're going to go organic, and a next door neighbor doing nothing. There's going to be constant movement of that pest into that grower's. field We might have two growers, one using Movento every other year, and another using Platinum every other year. Those males are going back and forth between those vineyards, sharing whatever genetic resistance that they're developing. And so really, if those growers are switching, one's using Movento, one's using Platinum that insect is moving between those vineyards all the time. And it's not a resistance management program, or you might have a small five acre grower deciding to put out mating disruption. Mating disruption works better blanketing the whole area. So an area wide program, and then you bring into it the idea of roguing leaf roll diseased vines. there are two things I just mentioned in this last 30 seconds that are so important for area wide management of mealybug and leaf roll that are the killers to those programs. The first is mating disruption still costs more money than a pesticide application. It's a fantastic tool. It is a tool that works better the lower and lower the mealybug density gets. So you use insecticides to really drop the mealybug population down, but there gets to be a point where the mealybugs are now on the bark. There are little populations here and there, and we know the insecticides are never 100 percent. Mating disruption works better. The lower the milli buck density is. [00:40:05] Craig Macmillan: Got it. [00:40:06] Kent Daane: But there's a cost to it. So we start with insecticides. The next part is the rowing of the infected vines. That's very important on an area wide basis because if you're planting, you've had, vineyard is old, it's not productive, it's had leaf roll. You pull it out, but it's right next to a block that's got 80 percent infected vines. You're always going to have new infections showing up over and over and over again. Unless that grower next to you is just doing this bang up job of applying insecticides all the time to keep mealybugs from going into your vineyard. you can make area wide control work for the pathogen. and the pest. But in the best world, let's say you're in control of a thousand acres, pull out every vineyard that's infected and replant and then pull out every new infection in it. And people just can't afford this. [00:41:06] Craig Macmillan: Right. [00:41:07] Kent Daane: if you're managing 200, 300 acres and Your vineyard with leaf roll that's at 30 percent is still profitable. it's hard to pull out those 30%. It's just hard to do. I get it. But something that I wish we could get, you know, government subsidy for to, to have them help us come in, pull out the infected vines, start clean again. But it does work. It's worked in South Africa. It's worked in New Zealand. It's worked in Napa. It just comes at a cost that may be prohibitive in some regions, in some areas. So the best we can do is to manage mealybug and the disease incidence in an area wide manner. [00:41:52] Craig Macmillan: if I remember correctly, I mean, the work has been done now that, demonstrates roguing is your best strategy overall long term, but it's expensive short term. and that is the issue. That's the tricky bit. [00:42:06] Kent Daane: There are two tricky bits to it. The first tricky bit is the expense you just talked about. The second tricky bit is that in most of the regions where we know it's worked They have not been dealing, perhaps, with our vine mealybug. They've been dealing with the grape mealybug, long tail mealybug, obscure mealybug. we've got I think the worst mealybug. And maybe that mealybug is just better at surviving on root remnants. You know, you hear all the time from growers, I r I've been removing 10 percent of my vineyard every single year for five years. And when I looked at The south African data, they removed 20%. Second year, 5%. Third year, 3%. Fourth year, 1%. And after that, it was always 1%. [00:42:54] Craig Macmillan: last piece of this puzzle in my mind is you have to get your neighbors to cooperate. That's the area wide bit. You have to get people to get on the same page in terms of what they're doing. And it sounds to me like they don't necessarily have to be doing exactly the same thing. They just have to be sensitive to what somebody else wants to do. Does that sound right? [00:43:15] Kent Daane: There are areas where it has worked well. It can work in the Central Coast. It can work in Lodi. We may not see, you know, eradication of diseased vines. We may not see a reduction of vine mealybug to a point where we can treat every other year. We might be treating every single year. for this, but we can improve what we're doing through communication right now. In the central Valley, we're working with a great group of growers where we're just mapping out the vine mealybug and we're sharing with the growers where the melaybug populations are. It's their decision. What? What to use, what to do for control. It's their decision. Can they rogue or not rogue? But what we're trying to do is to help foster communication amongst the different growers that are neighbors, because we're a third party, which I think helps a little bit. it would be fantastic if we could have someone hired as a scout or PCA, where we work with. PCAs in the region and everyone shares data. We're trying a new computer program this year, which we at the end of the season, we'll launch with our collaborating growers where they can log on in real time. and see what the trap counts are as we count those trap counts. And that will help them make a decision, we hope, on what to do in terms of control measures. But again, the best thing might be that we're opening up communication, just as the Vineyard team is doing through podcasts, through field days, through the website. [00:44:55] Craig Macmillan: Well, let's hope. And I, and there's a number of other organizations too. the, the group in Lodi has done a fantastic job from what I understand. Fostering communication and sharing information. like you said, I think that's probably one of our, our, our best hopes. Is working collaboratively as an industry and getting communication between the experts like PCAs and the extension community. . [00:45:15] Kent Daane: And of course, anyone can always reach out to me with questions as well. [00:45:18] Craig Macmillan: Fantastic. And we'll put your information in the show notes. I want to thank you for being on the podcast. fantastic. Very helpful and very, very exciting. I think I was feeling a little more dismal about this whole topic coming into this interview than I am now. I think there's maybe more potential than I was kind of giving credit. I, you know, I come from a time back in the 90s when Vine Mealybugs showed up in the Central Coast. And it was a lot of gnashing of teeth and pulling of hair, and we did not know what to do, and the damage was insane. I mean, I saw stuff that was just blood curdling, and I think we've come a long way. We've come a long way, and that's from the efforts of folks like you, so I really appreciate it. I want to thank our guest, Kent Daane. He is a Cooperative Extension Specialist with the University of California, Berkeley. he works primarily out of the Kearney Ag Research Extension Center. And, thanks so much for being on the podcast. This is great. [00:46:10] Kent Daane: Thank you very much. Enjoy the harvest time coming up.   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

Duffy and Dave sit down with our friend, the very great Dave Granucci - a phenomenal player, coach, and person. Dave, a 6'9" perimeter threat, was a star player for Drake High, City College of San Francisco, and San Jose State (D-1), before embarking on a fantastic coaching career that has spanned high school, Junior College, and D-2. He founded 707 Premier (www.707premier.com), an outstanding club basketball program in the Napa/Sonoma area. This was a fun and informative discussion about developing talent, motivating and leading teams, and...let's keep it simple...making shots.   This interview was conducted on November 10th, 2023 Show Notes: Musical intro credit to Stroke 9//Logo credit to Katie Levine Content and opinions are those of Dave, Duffy and their guests and not of affiliated organizations or sponsors. email us at: theruntmcpodcast@gmail.com check out our website at: theruntmcpodcast.com thanks to our sponsors: Caren Horstmeyer real estate, North Bay Basketball Academy, The Hub in San Anselmo, Jessie&Laurent and San Domenico Nike Summer Basketball Camps

As you know, I go to Napa/Sonoma quite a bit to record the Cork & Taylor Wine Podcast and I usually get some wine...I always struggle to find the time to ship it back home well Ron Scharman of Fly With Wine has the solution on this weeks C&T Episode. Scharman joins us this week and he has a very strong and interesting background in wine which he shares along with some other funny stories from a wine life well travelled. Thanks to Ron you now can bring home wine with you!Don't forget to Subscribe, Rate and Review! Please please It only takes a few minutes and helps me/the show grow. The more subscribers, reviews and rates helps us to get discovered! Also, follow us on our Facebook @corkandtaylor and Instagram accounts @corkandtaylorpodcast.Also, Please consider supporting the show as it would be appreciated. This helps me offset  expenses to continue to run and grow the Cork & Taylor Wine Podcast. Thanks! Lukehttps://www.patreon.com/corkandtaylor

This is the weekly newspaper column.Decanting 10-12-2022Decanting wine is a strategy you often find recommended. Here are some of the whys and whens.The main reason to decant wine is to expose the wine to oxygen. You also can decant wine if you want to avoid sediment in the bottle or to make a better presentation of the wine on your table, but exposure to oxygen is the principle reason for the effort.Oxygen exposure boosts wine's aromatics. That is vital because smell is the major force behind your experience of wine. Oxygen exposure also affects wine texture, making it smoother and rounder in your mouth and reduces tannic bitterness, the other main elements of your wine experience. So decanting improves wine in the most important factors of your wine enjoyment.Young red wines are always candidates for decanting, but decanting can enhance white wines, rosé wines, and even sparkling wines. And decanting does not kill the bubbles in sparkling, BTW.In general, white, rosé, and sparkling wines should be decanted for around 15-20 minutes. You are looking for freshness in such wines and tannins are unlikely. You also decant for a shorter period than red wines because you do not want those wines, especially sparkling, to warm past their ideal drinking temperature.Red wines, particularly young and tannic reds, benefit from longer decanting. An hour or more is not uncommon, but you also can use decanting systems that include aeration elements to speed up the process. The point is to expose the wine to as much air as possible. Rule of thumb: the more tannic the wine, the longer the decanting time.Tannat, barolo, and Bordeaux and Napa-Sonoma blends—which can be the most tannic wines you can find when young—are prime candidates for longer decanting. Experiment. Decanting also helps blow away off-putting odors found in wines—barnyard in some Burgundies, for instance. Typically those odors are not flaws because the wine becomes lovely after exposure to air.Be careful when decanting older wines. When the bottle is 10 years old or older, extended decanting time can rob the older wine of its liveliness and complexity. The patience you exhibited by resisting opening it accomplished much of what decanting does for a younger wine. You usually decant older wines in order to eliminate the sediment that is much more likely to be found in older bottles.Last round: If you are attacked by a mob of clowns, go for the juggler. Wine time.Gus Clemens on Wine is a reader-supported publication. Please consider becoming a paid subscriber and receive bonus material and access to complete archives.Thank you for reading Gus Clemens on Wine. This post is public so feel free to share it.Email: wine@cwadv.comNewsletter: gusclemens.substack.comWebsite:  gusclemensonwine.comFacebook:  facebook.com/GusClemensOnWine/posts/Twitter: @gusclemensLinks worth exploringDiary of a Serial Hostess Ins and outs of entertaining; witty anecdotes of life in the stylish lane.As We Eat Multi-platform storytelling explores how food connects, defines, inspires.Balanced Diet Original recipes, curated links about food systems, recipe reviews. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit gusclemens.substack.com/subscribe

There has been a big surge in wine consumption on a macro level in recent years. California production is down due to both the removal of acres and climate challenges. Because national production cannot keep up with demand, imports have increased. Dr. Christopher Thornberg, Founding Partner at Beacon Economics and Director of UC Riverside Center for Economic Forecasting looks at big picture economic themes in the wine industry. From differentiation with sustainability, to an economic perspective on pricing water use, to the need for regional marketing efforts. Collaborating with the industry, local partners, and government can bolster the success for all people coming together to make great wines.   References: 83: Sustainability: An Advantage in any Market (Podcast) Beacon Economics California and U.S. Wine Production (Wine Institute) Central Coast Economic Forecast Christopher Thornberg's Biography Eco-Certifications Increase Sales Economic Impact of California Wine (Wine Institute) SIP Certified Sustainable Ag Expo November 14-16, 2022 | Use code PODCAST for $50 off UC Riverside Center for Economic Forecasting & Development Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org. Transcript Craig Macmillan  0:00  My guest today is Dr. Christopher Thornberg. He is a founding partner of Beacon Economics and he's the director of the UC Riverside Center for Economic Forecasting. Dr. Thornberg, thank you for being with us.   Dr. Christopher Thornberg  0:11  Great to be here.   Craig Macmillan  0:12  You are an economic forecaster, macro economic forecaster. And you have a lot of experience in all kinds of things. This is a wine show, obviously, wine and grapes. How do you see the role of wine in the bigger kind of economic picture in the United States?   Unknown Speaker  0:29  Yes, you know, is interesting. I'm a macro economist, I'm based here in California, I spend a lot of my time talking about big things, interest rates, inflation, consumer spending. But at the same time as a California based guy is a guy who's done lots of talks in wine country, I've also become relatively cognizant, shall we say, of the ebbs and flows of Ag and the wine economy in general, right here. In California. Obviously, when you think about places like Sonoma or Napa, it's incredibly important part of not only local production, but local tourism. And as such, you always have to walk, you know, sort of watch what's happening in these spaces in these industries. Now, of course, when you think about California wine, when you think about US wine, from a macro perspective, there are two things that are happening simultaneously over the last couple of years. The first thing has happened is another big surge in wine consumption, you think about the history of wine, we saw big gains and consumption in the early part of the century, it plateaued for a number of years. And all of a sudden, over the last few years, yet again, wine consumption on a per person basis is going up, people are buying good wine. So we know from a consumption standpoint, demand is strong. The other interesting part of this, of course has to do with the fact that California wine production is down. It's down, in part because of the removal of some acreage. But it's also of course down because we've had not exactly the best weather over the last couple of years. And so you do have this interesting situation whereby California production has not been able to keep up with, if you will, national demand. One of the results of that, of course, has been an enormous surge of imports into the United States. So so times are good from an external standpoint, but obviously producers here in the state are facing some substantial headwinds, whether we're talking about land, whether climate labor, and of course, the real question is, is how does this thing shake out? Where does this thing hit?   Craig Macmillan  2:25  That's what everybody's wondering, you know, the investment in vineyards and wineries is substantial. Everybody wants one I've discovered in my consulting career, everybody wants to get in not always such a great idea that takes a lot of capital. And it takes a long time. Many wineries are losing money for 10 years or more before you even get close to breaking even depending on the product and the place. I have had many conversations about well, what can we do to kind of protect us, you know, what can we do to kind of, you know, get it get ahead of imports? What can we do to make our product special? So that can we be protected from some of this? And I would love to know your thoughts on how can a producer of a good like wine or wine grapes goes into wine? What things can they do to try to gain a bigger market share, again, something like imports or how to protect themselves against losing more of the marketplace.   Unknown Speaker  3:16  I don't think California wines are losing market share. Like if you look at the numbers, for example, crop prices, they're way up, they're doing very well. Sonoma's prices are very high Napa's prices are very high. I mean, to give you a sense, remember I get I focus on the entire state. And I always have to point out that there are more acres of wine grape production in Fresno by a good margin than there are in Sonoma, Napa combined. Now a lot of people outside the state are shocked by that. But then I have to point out you know, California box-o-wine on some the bottom shelf there in the supermarket. That's all made in Fresno. It's a perfectly reasonable part of market as the case may be. But it's a different kind of situation. It is a commodity product, as opposed to the name brand products that are made, of course in the vintage regions. And so when we have this conversation, the question is which part of the conversation are we going to have? Right? Are we talking about the prestige dub? Are we talking about the commodity stuff? Obviously, where you're located, you'd say the prestige stuff is, is more important, in a lot of ways. The prestige wines are doing fine, but the prestige wine industry in general has a problem. And the problem is you already said it that people want to be in the industry. It is a an ego industry. Everybody who makes a gazillion in finance wants to have a winery. That's how you impress your friends. Correct. You're in Wall Street. And so you do have a lot of guys coming in. Primarily guys, I appreciate the sexism involved there but I think we know that the guys are coming in buying these. These ego wineries, if you will, are predominantly men. What they're doing is flooding the market with a tremendous amount of great products in a very odd way, because they don't care as much about profit margins. Now what happens, of course, is, if you are that small winemaker who doesn't want to go commodity, you're the small one winemaker who wants to make a quality product, you suddenly find yourself between the rock and proverbial rock and the hard place. The rock are the commodity guys, and the hard place are those rich guys who don't care about a profit, and how you navigate in between those. And, you know, as a macro economist, I'll be the first person to tell you I don't have any clue.   Craig Macmillan  5:36  Business Strategy thing there.   Unknown Speaker  5:37  It obviously is a narrow path you have to walk in, and in general, they do I know enough small, high quality wine growers, you know, you can do it. But you got to be modest in terms of your ability to, shall we say, have great success here, you're going to have to be very careful as you navigate that.   Craig Macmillan  5:55  You know, this actually, this reminds me of a conversation I've had many, many times, and that is how do we make ourselves stand out? Yeah, we need people to know us, we need people to respect that we do. And there's different kinds of ways you can do that. You can try to get people to say, oh, this is the best quality product, everybody jumps up and down. But how do you communicate that that's tough, you need scores, reviews, things like that, that you have no control over. Or you can say it's a price based thing. So we're going to try to be a bargain brand, we're gonna have this level of quality at this lower price, right? Makes sense. But there's also lots of other kinds of signaling something called virtue, virtue signaling, where you can say, hey, there's this other thing about us, that makes us really special. And some of it has to do with maybe family, a lot of wineries really focus on the fact that it's a family business. And you know, we're we're kind of the working class heroes, even though we have this amazing property in this edifice, winery bootstraps and that's great. There's also virtue signaling around sustainability, I have kind of wondered whether that signaling how effective that is. So for instance, this organization Vineyard Team has a sustainability certification called SIP sustainability in practice, and lots of folks have gotten certified folks who are making really good quality wine, folks whose farming practices I am familiar with, and we also certified wineries and they're doing a great job. One of the things I've always wondered is how responsive are consumers to things like virtue signaling? Do you have an idea how how people respond to that kind of thing?   Unknown Speaker  7:21  Yeah, no, no, no, listen, there's a whole literature on this in economics. We know virtue signaling is incredibly important in more industries than just wine. I mean, whether your whole foods, pretending you're organic, because they're not really in hand, or, or in so many other places. virtue signaling is a singular part of business, particularly today in this era, where there's a lot of concerns about the environment where things are going. So to me, I think it's something that the industry continues to need to invest in, along with what I would call the other kind of branding items. One of the things that got me into wine in general was my explorations of California wine country, which again, we all have to keep in mind. I think a lot of wineries find their best clients are often the ones who wander into their winery for that tasting. And one of the questions is, is Nomad as a region, making sufficient efforts on making wine tasting available to folks on a more regular basis? How are they going about especially now in the post COVID area, when if people suddenly have a myriad of potential attractions available to them? How is the region standing out there among all these other things that are now available to people after a couple years of closure and say, Hey, no, no, no, you still need to come back here. You need to come to Sonoma. Get up here to Healdsburg get out there to, you know, and Russian River products and how do you encourage them to be there? So I think that aspect right now has to be heavily in the minds of, of local development.   Craig Macmillan  8:59  So one of the things that I've observed, certainly on the Central Coast, and I think it applies in other areas as well, definitely, you have vineyards that are really production oriented, and selling their grapes out of the area, places like Napa Sonoma, for the Central Coast as an example. Then you have a couple of pioneers that try and say, hey, we're gonna keep some of this, they do well, that brings other people into the game. And then eventually, there's a need for other kind of other auxillary businesses and activities to come along. So you need hotels, you need restaurants, you get horseback riding and balloon rides, and then people start to come for a variety of reasons, as well as not just wine or even if they come for wine, they start to enjoy other things. How important do you think that is for creating a stable marketplace for the wine industry or encouraging the growth of the market for wine?   Unknown Speaker  9:46  Yeah, it listen, it's incredibly important for a number of reasons. Obviously, ultimately, your best customers are the customers who come to the winery who join your wine club who get that every three months case of wine. Every winery wants those direct people and the direct people are the ones are going to show up in a room. So you say you need to be part of a concerted effort locally to build the wine tourism industry. And yes, by the way, that means you have to have other attractions as well, as anyone who's gone wine tasting can tell you, after about four or five wineries, you're not tasting much of anything anymore. Yeah, yeah, you really need to have other things to do for the rest of the day. And that means having again, an economic development strategy locally that tries to build up the entire tourism industry, it's the restaurants, it's the hotels, secondary attractions, and how do you tie them all together? And how do you build those regional collaborations that benefit everybody? How do you build the money necessary for that? The other thing, of course, ultimately, is that by doing that, you're driving the long run brand. You know, everybody knows Napa, you go anywhere in the world, you say Napa, people know Napa, you get to Paso Robles, there's some awareness, certainly better than it was 20 years ago, but nowhere near that of Napa. But over time, as you get more clients, high end clients who were serving the local wine at a dinner party, other people get aware of it. And it builds up until the point that you to have, if you will, almost that international reputation of a place like Napa. Now, what's interesting is, you know, when we think about this, particularly here in California, there is what I would call those those organizational outreach efforts. How do we make this all work for everybody outside, but here in California, we have an interesting problem is we don't make it very easy for local governments to do these kinds of things. Because here in California, for example, we don't build enough housing. You know, the Paso Robles region, for example, is shockingly devoid of multifamily housing, but it's multifamily housing you need for those young folks who are just trying to break into the industry, for the folks who are going to work in your wine tasting room or work in these restaurants. If you're not building multifamily, how are you going to build your labor force and able to be able to man, all these tourist operations, it has to be really a combined vision, because there's a lot of things that go sideways in these efforts. And ultimately, if you will diminish the the all you know, it's interesting, I'm an economist. And so at some level, I always come to the conversation with a big role to be played by the market, right. That's what economists are all about the market. But what we're talking about here is a brand reputation, which is a social product, we own it jointly, if you're in Pasco, if you're in Sonoma, if you're in the Finger Lakes, if you're in, in Walla Walla, Washington, you all own commonly that brand, and you have to have a local conversation to make sure you're all doing the right thing to support that brand. And that means you desperately need local, some sort of local cooperation. Typically public doesn't have to be could be a nonprofit, or public private partnership, whatever it is, but you need to have those institutions there to drive the whole thing forward. The good news is yet again, wine is one of those things that kind of attracts everybody's attention. It's almost like Hollywood, but slightly less evil. And if you can get people interested, because it's fun, it gets people to the table. But you have to have that regional collaboration, you got to make sure people are there. And it takes these kinds of community conversations.   Craig Macmillan  13:31  Are there organizations, people positions, that should be could be leadership in that process? And what role did the producers themselves have in this process, because like you said, I need to have folks who can work for me at a wage that I can afford to pay. And quite frankly, I need it to be stable. I don't want to put a year of in training, and it's very specialized thing, and then have them bail, and have to start all over again. I want to have employees that are happy, and they're confident they're settled. So what role does something like the grower community having this effect? I mean, do you go to meetings and say, hey, we need housing? Do you go to the politicians and say, hey, we were gonna lobby you to take this seriously? What's the strategy?   Unknown Speaker  14:13  My personal advice on that is, again, every region should have some sort of public private partnership, right? You build up some sort of local wine tourism chamber, if you will. And you bring in public plank, private clients, you put money into a kitty and use that to push forward the kind of conversations necessary, whether it's about branding, tourism or local, if you will, development needs, you got to have everybody at the table for that kind of coordination and cooperation, for better or for worse. The nice thing about government in this particular case is they can enforce if you will, some sort of fairness and supportive such an organization. One of the things I always worry about when it comes to the strictly private nonprofits I get like a Chamber of Commerce is the tendency for free riding, you're always gonna have two winemakers who are going to be very happy to, shall we say, take advantage of making money off the name brand, but they're not going to participate in the in that social efforts. And it's good to have a little authority, if you will, to make sure everybody's contributing at some level to ultimately, what's good for the social good. So that's helpful as well. And of course, that one of the bigger issues here has to do with how such organizations deal with whatever called some of the broader pressures we're dealing with. Because like, when you talk about housing, it's not just ag, right? It's everybody. And they have to be there to bring wines point of view to the table, when you have planning meetings, when you're discussing the lack of multifamily that has to be the voice of the community at those particular tables. That's, of course, particularly profound here in California. But there's been a big decline in wine production state over the last couple of years. And it's because we've had some pretty hideous weather, incredibly dry. We know we are in a big water shortage, the ag industry in general has got to be part of the solution to water shortages here in the state. And by the way, it behooves the wind industry to be part of the process to get ag to the table. You know, it's interesting, when you think about the water shortages that we're dealing with right now, a lot of folks point at, say, for example, nuts, there's, that's a big enemy. No, until we're growing nuts, how dare we grow nuts in this state,.   Craig Macmillan  16:30  So many gallons to produce a pound almonds, that was the big one a couple of years ago.   Unknown Speaker  16:33  But what's the value of that pound of almond see, you have to think about the dollars coming off the trees coming off the vine or treesout of the ground, it's not gallons per pound that matters, it's gallons per dollar that matters. And the problem you have with water in the state of California, is this just allocated on the basis of 120 year old agreements, there's no economic logic used to assign where that water is used. It's not just oh, take it away from the farmers to get into the cities, we have to understand that high value crops suffer as well. So it behooves everybody in the ag industry to come to the table to have these conversations. Because if you're not there, if you're if you're part of this, what's almost seems to me to be a boycott of negotiations over water, that's what ag is, right now, we're just boycotting this, if you even if you even bring it up, we're gonna we're gonna ask you, do you think people should stop eating eventhough that's a ridiculous question, you can't do that. You got to be at the table, you got to acknowledge the problems, acknowledges solutions and work towards a compromise. And again, I think the wine industry, the wine grape industry, here in the state has a lot to say about this. And they should be part of that conversation that should be part of pushing that conversation.   Craig Macmillan  18:02  So this is a really interesting division they've seen philosophically amongst growers, and also other areas. If I have pumps, if I have wells on my land, the water that comes out of that, well, is that a private good? Is that benefits me, and is not somebody else's property? Or is it a public good, that I'm taking advantage of and we're all going to hit a tragedy of the commons? Well, okay, I'm using a bunch of terminology that and that's where a lot of conflict comes from is if I'm treating it as a private good, or am I being quote unquote, responsible. You hear people say that, and this treating it like a public good, then what kind of benefit am I getting for what I'm doing? So I very much get your point, I would love to hear a little bit more about if I am drawing a public good and much like grazing sheep on the commons, where it came from, but I'm contributing to the economy. I'm hiring people, I'm paying wages and paying taxes, protecting this land from some other use. That's another thing.   Unknown Speaker  18:58  I don't I don't like that term at all.   Craig Macmillan  19:00  Okay, go ahead. Hit me.   Unknown Speaker  19:03  You're protecting the land from another use. What does that mean?   Craig Macmillan  19:06  Oh, it's an open space argument. If you if you consider vineyards to be open space, then I'm keeping this land in open space, as opposed to letting a big housing development go in.   Unknown Speaker  19:15  Okay, well, first of all, we have more wealth, way more wind acreage, and we have need for new housing in California at the moment. So I'm a little dubious of that specific argument. And I think that the whole idea of market economics is it allows whatever scarce resource to be used at its greatest possible potential. If a hunk of land is more valuable as houses than it is winegrapes, then we should be building housing there. That's the logical economic outcome. Unless there's some sort of externality we can point to and there may well be there's a value to open space that often doesn't get priced into these conversations. That's a completely different debate for a completely I think different show is as the case may be. But in general, look, let me put it this way. Water is a public good. It just is. We know that. All right, nobody owns the water, the water under your land is part of a massive aquifer. It's not just under your land is sloshes over the place, just like the river running by your farm, it has people upstream and downstream. And you don't want the people upstream of you taking all the water before it gets to you. I don't think you should be allowed to take all the water for gets the next person down the way, we again have to have a cooperative solution for how to deal with this water question. Now in general, if we acknowledge it's a public good, there should be a public price for the product. It's as simple as that people should be paying for the water they use, which they don't do in this state. At any real level, our water agencies charge people on the basis of cost, which is not a market price, it's not the relevant figure, we need to price water at a level that will basically constrain usage to a reasonable sustainable amount. Now guess what? The good news for wine grape growers, particularly for higher end wine grape growers, is you'll be able to afford a higher price. Why? Because you're producing a high profit margin usually, sometimes water is not your cost, you could do it. Whereas folks would probably get pushed out as yeah, I would anticipate that some hay farmers may no longer grow hay. Now, by the way, before we feel sad for the Hey, farmers, remember, if I'm talking about using a market, that, hey, farmers are going to get paid for not using their water. And by the way, they will almost assuredly make a hell of a lot more money selling their water than they are selling the hay. Yet again, we end up with a good social outcome all the way around. This is a win win win proposition that I'm suggesting here. But again, it's amazing the mental lock we have when it comes to having conversations about applying even basic market mechanisms to water consumption. When as a quote unquote capitalist economy, we seem to rely on markets to supply most of our basic day to day goods. It's interesting. Yeah.   Craig Macmillan  22:14  So this is just my perspective. I'm curious, would you agree that there's a lot of resistance to the idea of paying for water?   Unknown Speaker  22:19  We already pay for water. I mean, everybody pays a little bit, but obviously, the are wildly different. What I pay for my water at my house in Los Angeles is completely different than what the guy's paying for water for hay in Imperial County, which is different than what the winegrape farmer in Fresno is paying for his water. So we all pay completely different prices. For the most part, those prices are way below what they should be. Really all ends up being some bureaucrat out there saying okay, well you're paying under so you can only consume X amount. Again, that's the wrong way of doing things. We really want prices to be more equilibrated. It means allowing the market to set some sort of price, and then allowing the various market participants to purchase what they can economically do at that price level. Is it complicated? Not to go off topic here. But let me just your typical, I've done some of these calculations, your typical hay farmer Imperial County makes about from best case scenario, 15 to maybe $50 per acre foot of water, they used to grow hay, right? There is debate going on in Orange County right now about opening and desal plant, that desal plant to be clear will produce water at something on the order of 2000 to $2,300 per acre foot. And of course, that doesn't even include the environmental damage such plants create because they are bad for the oceans. We know that. Why would we do that? Why is it Orange County's paying those farmers in Imperial I don't know. let's give them $400 An acre foot that's roughly 10 times what they're making growing hay. By the way, that still leaves you $1,600 An acre foot to do environmental remediation. Move the water to Orange County. Economic remediation if you think parts of the Imperial County will suffer because there's less hay being grown. I'm not sure what it would be but maybe there's somebody getting hurt their. To me there's so much money being left over how can this state be anything but better off with that transaction taking place? The only as far as I can tell the only agents who suffer are the cows and horses in Korean and Japan are going to be denied their lunch.   Craig Macmillan  24:42  You do have to put the frame on you do have to put on the box. You know what area are we looking at and what's a rational box to draw? And then who are the players in that box and what's the resource and how much resources there right here are you talking about the making a market for Wwater. Aren't markets, volatile, unpredictable, potentially dangerous? I mean, that's a value loaded word. I know, but.   Unknown Speaker  25:09  What does that mean? Exactly? We have markets for apartments and market for home and markets, gas markets for milk. They work everywhere. What really were afraid of a market. Since when? This is a market economy. There are places that markets don't work very well. I agree with that, by the way, health care markets horrendous. We don't we don't need markets running health care. That's a separate conversation for a different podcast. I'd you know, I just opened up a massive can there. But when it comes to this, isn't this isn't healthcare, water is water. And markets make sense.   Craig Macmillan  25:44  Again, how would a group of growers engage that? Can you see wine grape growers being leaders because their crop is different. That's again, one of these things we've had danger in a multi-ag, in multi crop counties is like the wine folks, you're gonna like, hey, we don't use anywhere near what these guys use. But you don't want to throw that out there. You want to throw that stone because we need to get them involved right in the plan. And yet winemakers have a couple of things going for them. Number one, they have prestige. So I think that they get attention. They have a commonality that I think holds them together better than other crops, because everybody's in the same boat. And yeah, commodity growers are in the same boat. But I've seen this in wine where people are a little bit more willing to get together. There is a lot of conflict within the group, obviously. Can you see growers being proactive towards this process and saying, hey, we think this is a good idea, we think this will not only help us we'll have everybody else does the sustainability aspect here because people want to be sustainable. So they're going to be looking for things that say, Hey, this is going to help us have water and also we're gonna be able to use it equitably. Can you see the movement there? What does that look like? Or have you seen examples of this kind of thing in other situations?   Unknown Speaker  25:44  listen, where your hometown Paso Robles, the classic case of this, right, because we know there that there's our growers and buyers who are heavily involved with local water conversations. They can have an they should have a seat at the table, whether it's local, or statewide, or national. The industry's sustainability, at some level is ultimately tied to the sustainability of overall agriculture in the state, just like your sustainability, as a brand is going to be tied to your local branding and tourist efforts. You have to understand the broader macro nature of the world you exist in and be part of those broader processes. By the way, what I just said is true, not just for conversations about water, or housing, it's conversations about politics in general, not to go too far off into left field here. But a lot of Americans right now feel completely alienated from politics as it exists right now in the US, you look at both parties who are talking about topics and conversations that seem almost completely bizarrely foreign to your actual day to day living your world. And you wonder how we got here. And again, it's a function of a lack of participation. We are social creatures, we exist within a community. And when the community starts going directions, we don't understand, then we have to look in the mirror and ask, is it because I'm not being part of those conversations? And if so, how do I become part of those conversations? How do I get involved? And the answer is being a leader yourself, or supporting organizations that are going to go out and lead on your behalf. It's about being involved, which, again, when you're trying to build a brand, when you're trying to make sure you have enough workers on the wine farm and in the wine tasting shop, I appreciate how hard that is. If you're relying on somebody else to make the right decision, well, then you're not going to be able to, shall we say have a moral high ground to complain when the decision is not what should happen have happened. We have to remember that we have to remember that the that the broader ag community, wine producers wine grape producers can be part of this broader conversation. And indeed they should.   Craig Macmillan  29:16  And perhaps they need to be.   Dr. Christopher Thornberg  29:18  Yes, I think so.   Craig Macmillan  29:19  We're talking about an imperative here. Yeah. Yeah. And that probably applies to lots of other things. We've seen it with habitat. We've seen it around pesticide use. We've seen our worker equity, and a lot of really positive things have happened in the last 20 or 30 years. This is the next one. I go back and I look at sustainability reports. And it was from various companies and I see lots of stuff about habitat. I see a lot of stuff about workers, electricity starting to show up more and more. They almost never touch on pesticides. That's like the third rail, which is too bad because the industry has been doing a much better job last 30 years than they did but then the one thing that I always noticed is missing is water. There's nothing about really what are we doing about water in some cases they do, don't get me wrong. Some folks are very out there saying, Hey, look at what we're doing, but a lot of them are not. And I think that may have to become, like you said, part of the identity and big focus for how people behave, and getting involved at different levels.   Dr. Christopher Thornberg  30:11  And now more than ever, because we all know that California is drying out as part of the climate change that's around us. We still have lots of water. You know, I keep saying I've always say that we don't have, if you will, a drought in as much as we really don't have enough water to go around. We do if you actually sat down and applied basic water conservation efforts, you would actually see we have plenty of water in this day, we just have to use a smarter, that's where we just fall over. Because we don't seem to be able to get to that conversation that ag can change, they can continue to thrive through this process. You we got to stop the whole, every time there's any kind of conversation about change. The first place we go is existential threat, you know?   Craig Macmillan  31:05  Yeah, exactly. Oh, yeah. Threat to my life. That's a tough one. That's a tough one. It's a very basic kind of socio sociological, psychological reaction. You know, the change is like, Oh, my lifestyles threatened. Me, and my family has done this for 1000 years, whatever, which completely aligns the fact that you okay, your people been on the land for 150 years, but they weren't wearing sneakers. You're wearing sneakers now. They weren't wearing blue jeans, you're wearing blue jeans. They didn't have diesel powered tractors, you have diesel powered tractors now. And all of those things, some of them are about just changes in society and the way people dress and and culture, but also a lot of it's about efficiency.   Dr. Christopher Thornberg  31:42  And you didn't have 40 living in California, and you didn't have a 20 year drought behind you. The world is not same nor should your life be.   Craig Macmillan  31:53  And it's not gonna be Yeah, well, that's great. This is pretty much the time that we've got, I would love to just sit down and like have a beer with you. This is I was gonna, I was gonna ask you about Veblen goods. But I think that might be a totally different show, not a different episode. What is what is one thing you'd recommend to our listeners just in general.   Dr. Christopher Thornberg  32:13  I exist in a world as an economist right now, where there are economic realities. And then there are public narratives. In the 25, 30 years, I've been studying the economy, never have I seen such a massive gap between public narratives and the economic data. How many times does the newspaper use the term cliff were at the cliff edge, we're on the constantly right, and we have panicked ourselves to ridiculous point. And as a result of that, we paralyzed ourselves for fears that don't actually exist. So my one advice to everybody out there is turn off the crisis mode, you got to turn it off, let it go. The world changes, we all have to sit down and understand that. And from a community standpoint, we could figure out the best way to move forward, if we can have conversations about how we all adapt together. But if everybody's screaming under the world, everybody's screaming crisis, everybody's creating an existential threat where it doesn't exist. Again, we're paralyzed. Thus, we cannot respond to crises. Thus, the crises become that much worse. By not allowing that mentality to exist, we can actually take these things on, and all be better off, but it means Yeah, it means taking a step back and being a little less selfish and, and a little more willing to hear other people's opinions and outputs and and moving accordingly. We live in and I think we live in a period of time where people are having a tough time with that. And that's we again, you gotta look in the mirror.   Craig Macmillan  33:48  That is great advice. Very insightful. Where can people find out more about you?   Unknown Speaker  33:52  Yeah, well, Beacon Economics, beaconecon.com. We do all sorts of stuff. You'll find some stuff I write on a regular basis, which goes around to a lot of these topics we touched on here, so www.beaconecon.com.   Craig Macmillan  34:05  Our guest today was Dr. Christopher Thornberg, founding partner of Beacon Economics and director of EC UC Riverside Center for Economic Forecasting. Dr. Thornberg, thank you so much. This has been a real pleasure. This has been really really fun for me.   Unknown Speaker  34:18  Absolutely. Me as well. I enjoyed the conversation.   Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Sterling Vineyards: Spotlight on Napa Valley's Premier WineryNapa Valley is world-renowned for its wine, and Sterling Vineyards is one of the most iconic wineries in the area. I had the opportunity to interview Lauren Kopit, winemaker at Sterling Vineyards, for the Obsessed with Wine podcast this week. In this post, I want to share some of the insights she shared with me about the winery and Napa Valley's wine industry. Stay tuned for my podcast episode featuring Lauren which is available Saturday, July 9th!Sterling Vineyards - Napa ValleyPanoramic ViewsSterling Vineyards is a historic hilltop winery in the town of Calistoga, CA. Sterling separates itself from wineries on the valley floor with its brilliant white stucco and aerial tram.  The aerial tram carries visitors from the parking lot to the entrance of the winery that sits atop a volcanic hill 300 feet above the Napa Valley.  This elevation offers visitors stunning panoramic views of the Napa Valley making it one of the most visited wineries in the Napa Valley wine country.  Change of ownershipSterling founder Peter Newton produced the first vintage in 1969 after establishing the winery in 1964.  Peter Newton designed the winery to resemble a place originating from the Greek island Mykonos.  The winery's towers house eight bells that came from London's church where Perter Newton was born.  The winery was eventually purchased in 1977 by The Coca-Cola Company and then it was sold again in 1982 to Seagram before it was purchased by Diageo in 2001.  Finally, Sterling Vineyards was purchased by the Australian wine giant Treasury Wine Estates in 2016.  The Glass Fire Unfortunately, the aerial tram and parts of the winery were damaged in the Glass fire.  The Glass Fire started on September 27, 2020, and damaged many wineries in the Napa/Sonoma area including the Sterling Vineyards winemaking facilities.  Sterling is currently undergoing needed renovations including a new state-of-the-art winery that will be one of the most technologically advanced and sustainable wineries in California once it is completed. The new winery will use 50% less water than traditional winemaking practices and will generate its own energy using solar panels.   Construction has been slow due to the availability of materials as a result of the Covid-19 pandemic but the winery plans to re-open by the Summer of 2023.  In the meantime, the wine is being made at Berringer, another winery owned by Treasury.  Lauren Kopit - WinemakerSterling Vineyards' winemaking is in the capable hands of Senior Winemaker Harry Hansen and winemaker Lauren Kopit.  I had the opportunity to interview Lauren for my podcast Obsessed with Wine and she was very complimentary of her time at Sterling Vineyards where she has worked for over seven years.  Lauren was quoted as saying “I was at Sterling one week and I knew I wanted to work here forever”.  I asked her about that comment and she noted that she gets to work with some of the smartest minds in wine and she really feels like the winemaking team is a family.  Right now she can't imagine working anywhere else.   Like many people working in wine in the Napa Valley, Lauren went to college at UC Davis where she graduated with a bachelor's degree in microbiology before returning for her master's degree in Viticulture & Enology.  She says her first wine job was as a Harvest Lab Intern at Franciscan Estates where she worked with V. Sattui winemaker Jason Moravec when they were both interns.  Lauren's wine journey took her to Matchbook Wine Company as a Lab Technician and then to Turkovich Family Wines as a tasting room associate while she finished college.  She then moved

This week on our Vino Lingo segment we feature Brian Maloney, Winemaker at Buena Vista Winery, Napa/Sonoma, defining the term “Bunghole”. Learn more by visiting www.buenavistawinery.com.

The history of Napa Valley and Sonoma may be surprising to those that take the time to read up on the past. The colorful characters of history almost seem to be reborn in modern day winemaking. Buena Vista Winery is like a living character, with a long history of winemaking in California. Brian Maloney is [...]

Invasive pests and diseases are a challenge for all grape growers. Research is vital to develop new strategies and solutions. The Pierce's Disease/Glassy-Winged Sharpshooter Board was established nearly two decades ago to allocate funding to the most promising research projects. Kristin Lowe, Research Coordinator at the Pierce's Disease and Glassy-Winged Sharpshooter Board and President of Vine Balance Consulting shares how projects are funded through a rigorous scientific review and screening panel. Also, learn about some of the most exciting projects including “pathogen confusion” to control Pierce's Disease from Dr. Steve Lindow and a gene editing technology for grapevines using plant protoplasts Dr David Tricoli. References: 89: New Pierce's Disease Vaccine (podcast) 2021 Pierce's Disease Research Projects at a Glance 2021 Pierce's Disease Research Symposium Proceedings 2021 Pierce's Disease Research Symposium session recordings 2022-07-16 Night Harvest Lighting & SWEEP Grants Tailgate About the PD/GWSS Board Biological Control of Pierce's Disease of Grape by an Endophytic Bacterium CDFA Pierce's Disease Research Symposium SIP Certified Sustainable Ag Expo November 14-16, 2022 Vine Balance Consulting Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org. Transcript Craig Macmillan  0:00  I'm your host Craig Mcmillan. And with me today is Kristin Lowe, president of Vine Balance Consulting, and research coordinator for the Pierce's Disease Glassy-Winged Sharpshooter Board. Welcome, Kristin.   Kristin Lowe  0:12  Thank you so much for having me.   Craig Macmillan  0:13  First off, can you tell us what is the Pierce's Disease and Glassy-Winged Sharpshooter Board or the PDGWSS? As I want to call it from now on?   Kristin Lowe  0:21  Absolutely. So the PDGWSS Board is a group of California growers or grower producers. There's 14 board members and also one public member. And their primary goal is to make sure that all of the assessment funds that are received to the board go to the most promising research for our most challenging pests and diseases today. Those that are designated as important problems.   Craig Macmillan  0:48  And so the funding comes from an assessment.   Kristin Lowe  0:50  That is correct. So the assessment, I believe, on average is about $1.50 per $1,000 of grapes in terms of value .The most, the cap is at $3 per 1000 grapes in value. But yes, that's collected every year and has been so since the board started back in 2001.   Craig Macmillan  1:13  What led to the creation of the board?   Kristin Lowe  1:15  Pierce's Disease. So. Well, I think anyone who's looked into the history of Pierce's Disease, so this is a bacterial disease, endemic to California, not not necessarily new to California, right. But what was new to California was not only the establishment, but the fact that the Glassy-Winged Sharpshooter started thriving down in Southern California. That is the vector for Pierce's Disease. That insect exists in parts of Mexico and also parts of Florida and the Southeast US. But it got to California, and it started doing really well to the point that Pierce's disease started taking off. This led to a lot of sad looking pictures of dead vines, lots of concern over lost acreage, and this would be during the late 1990s or so. And in response to this, industry leaders from all different groups came together. A combination of industry USDA, UC California researchers, CDFA, to create the Pierce's Disease Control Program. And that's got many facets, but one of it is the PDGWSS Board, which whose mission is to fund the most important research to combat Pierce's Disease, Glassy-Winged Sharpshooter and all the other pests that they've designated in their RFP.   Craig Macmillan  2:31  Yeah. And so the the mission is expanded now beyond just Glassy-Wing to a number of other invasive pests that correct?   Kristin Lowe  2:37  Yeah, it has it has. And there's, there's a clear path for that. And I think what really blew that open was the European Grapevine Moth. So another invasive pest species that showed up, oh, gosh, and I think that was somewhere around 2011 or so maybe a little bit before, but agriculture always has a new bad guy. And so we needed a way for the for the PDGWSS board to, you know, expand what it was going to fund in terms of research to deal with new problems and, and continuing ones that keep coming back.   Craig Macmillan  3:08  So what exactly is your role with the board?   Kristin Lowe  3:11  Sure. So, they put out a call for proposals for a research coordinator last year, and I got the job, very excited. And so my goal is to kind of basically help guide the program to make sure that what we're funding is really on point to, to our goal, on point to making sure that the research is heading in the right direction, it's we get continual progress, and is also able to collaborate with, you know, get foster collaboration with other agencies, we have this general sense that we've been going since 2001. And there's been a lot of really great research going on for Pierce's Disease. These days, our problems might be different. And so the RFP expanded, also to include grapevine viruses. And those seem to be a real multi headed monster, for the industry for many levels. So I think that while my overall goal is just to make sure that the research funding program is focused and relevant, we're starting to look a lot more closely at visruses.   Craig Macmillan  4:20  And RFPs  is Request for Proposals?   Kristin Lowe  4:22  Correct RFP is the request for proposals.   Craig Macmillan  4:25  Okay, so academics, scientists, will write up a proposal of what they want to do research wise, and they bring it to the board, and the board, evaluates them and decides, hey, would give some money to this, we'll give some money to that.   Kristin Lowe  4:39  Yes, absolutely. So we coordinate with other funding agencies and for the wine industry and actually for the whole wine and grape industry, not just in California, but in Oregon as well. And we all put out a request for proposals on the same date, December 1. And that after a couple months that closes and we look atthe proposals and they go through the PDGWSS Board, they go through scientific review, pretty stringent scientific review, and then also our research screening panel process. And ultimately, the Board makes the final decision on what gets funded within that year.   Craig Macmillan  5:14  Cool. So tell us about some of these projects. I mean, it's been 20 years. What's happened? What are some of the ones that you are excited about? Or remember are really proud of?   Kristin Lowe  5:23  Yeah, oh, there's so many. And I am I am so nervous about like glossing over things or missing details that I'm going to take this opportunity to tell everybody that there's some great resources on our website that you can, that you can look at to get more details. And that is cdfa.ca.gov/PDCP/research. And on there you can look at, there's a document that says projects at a glance, just great layman's layman person summaries of all of the research has been going on. There's our entire research symposium proceedings, and some recordings as well of   Craig Macmillan  6:05  Yes,   Kristin Lowe  6:06  ... recent one. So, you know, because this is public assessment money, this information should be available to everyone in the industry. So we work really hard to keep that website updated.   Craig Macmillan  6:16  And we will have links to all of those on the page.   Kristin Lowe  6:19  Okay, cool. Cool. Cool. Okay, so some science.   Craig Macmillan  6:23  Yes!   Kristin Lowe  6:23  Have you heard Dr. Steve Lindow talk about his work on Paraburkholderia?   Craig Macmillan  6:29  No, I haven't.   Kristin Lowe  6:31  You haven't? I thought he I thought he presented at this Sustainable Ag Expo a few years ago, but maybe I'm mistaken.   Craig Macmillan  6:37  No, he may have been I may not have been there.   Kristin Lowe  6:40  Yeah, yeah. So Dr. Steve Lindow, is at UC Davis. And he made a crazy exciting discovery, there is a endophytic bacteria called Paraburkholderia phytofirmans, I'll just call it like, Paraburkholderia. That's enough of a mouthful.   Craig Macmillan  6:57  That's enough, yeah.   Kristin Lowe  6:58  And it inhibits the movement of xylella fastidiosa. So of the Pierce's Disease controlling or the organism responsible for Pierce's Disease, within the vine. So this endophytic bacteria, if you put it in the vine, at the same time, that's Xylella, in there, it not only moves throughout the vine, so it becomes systemic, but it inhibits the movement of the pathogen. So this is kind of huge. This species has been looked at before for for other reasons. But what this basically is, we're hoping that it leads to, is an infield treatment with an endophytic bacteria. So his work has involved figuring out, first of all the mechanism. But second of all, the practical aspect of this, which is what I love about it. It seems to work best when the two organisms are there together. So there's a timing of you know, do we pre inoculate with endophytic bacteria, and then it gets Xylella. That works. Or if a vine has been infected with Xylella, and then you are able to treat it with a Paraburkholderia. It also helps to not only the reduce the Xylella count, but reduce symptoms.   Craig Macmillan  8:14  How do you introduce it this thing into the vine?   Kristin Lowe  8:18  Oh, right. Yeah, first of all, with a pinprick basically. So an inoculation, I don't think everyone out there is going to want to go through and inoculate every vine. So they are working on a sprayable formulation. And to be able to actually get that into the vine, as well. And it seems to work with certain types of surfactants. So that's kind of where that technology is at is, you know, how do we create, you know, how do we create a usable product with it? What's going to work the best in the field? What's, what's the most practical in terms of rate, and timing? And in getting the endophytic bacteria into the vines?   Craig Macmillan  8:54  That's, that's amazing. That's definitely amazing. Endophytic bacteria is something that lives inside the plant.   Kristin Lowe  9:00  Yes, it is naturally there, there are 1000s of them and 1000s have been tried to see if they first of all actually move throughout the plant rather than in just the place that you found them. And second, if they are going to work against any sort of pathogens. Yeah, an amazing discovery and work that's been going on for for years and is I believe, is finally in the stages of getting to field trials and seeing how it would work. But imagine if you could go out to your block that you know is going to get pressure every year and think that you could decrease that pressure with with a spray. Never, I mean PD kills vines, that's huge. And in areas with constant pressure, it kills just more and more every year. So to have that sort of infield treatment is pretty exciting.   Craig Macmillan  9:45  Is this the kind of project that would receive funding over many years or multiple years from the board?   Kristin Lowe  9:49  Absolutely. And I don't remember when it first started. Definitely preceded my time there, but I think I've been following it since at least 2016.   Craig Macmillan  9:52  Oh, wow. Okay.   Kristin Lowe  9:52  No, it takes time from you know, discovery not only to making sure it's going to work, and then and then there's all this stuff after to get it actually implemented. But most of these projects that are going to result in a long term sustainable solution, or long term projects, you need years of data to make sure that they're gonna work.   Craig Macmillan  10:17  Science takes time.   Kristin Lowe  10:19  It takes time. I know, we're always impatient about that. But it does definitely take time.   Craig Macmillan  10:25  And support.   Kristin Lowe  10:26  Yeah, yeah.   Craig Macmillan  10:27  What's, what's something else that you're excited about?   Kristin Lowe  10:30  Okay, another one that's pretty exciting and groundbreaking is work by Dr. David Tricoli. And he's at the UC Davis Plant Transformation Facility. Have you heard of him at all?   Craig Macmillan  10:42  No, no.   Kristin Lowe  10:43  Okay. So he's doing has done something that might sound simple, but it opens up a wealth of options for future research. He's developed a cell culture method for regenerating a grapevine from a cell Protoplast. So you might remember back from biology, major differences between animals and plants. Plants are surrounded by a cell wall, animal cells, plant cells. Animal cells are not. When some of the like gene editing technology is coming out that's happening in animal cells, it's a lot easier to do, because they don't have the cell wall. Previous to this work, no one's been able to regenerate a grapevine from just a Protoplast. Without a cell wall. What this work has done is enabled there to be a platform of getting a group of grape cells together, just their protoplasts without the cell wall, onto which you could potentially do CRISPR Cas9, or some of the other fast developing gene editing techniques that are out there.   Craig Macmillan  11:45  This this is a technology I've heard repeatedly, and I'm I have no idea what the acronym stands for. And I'm not really sure I understand what it does. So what is CRISPR? Yeah,   Kristin Lowe  11:55  and I'm not going to tell you exactly what the acronym stands for either. To me, but so Cas9 is is a gene editing technology that allows for very, very precise small changes in a gene or in a genome. Ultimately, when done for plants by multiple steps later, it can result in a plant that's retained this small edit, but has absolutely no foreign DNA. And unlike a traditional GMO, that would have external DNA from a plasmid or from some other plant, this one is I can kind of think of it as like a lucky or benevolent mutation occurred. And you can't tell but it was purposeful. And and the result is a different phenotype that, that you can see. CRISPR-Cas9 gene editing is it's been out there for a number of years now. But it's taken time for everyone to develop different platforms for which it could work. For plants, especially for plants that are always regenerated by cuttings. So we don't do crosses to get new grapes, we take cuttings, we need a platform to possibly be able to do this. What this work has done is developed that platform. Where it could go it completely depends you need to you need to know which you know which genes to edit, which ones are going to reduce, are going to result in a phenotype. Obviously, what's fascinating, or what's most interesting to me is disease resistance that's usually complex multigenic. So we're still a ways down there from coming up with a with a solution. But the fact that the platform was developed, was actually a major breakthrough.   Craig Macmillan  13:35  That's phenomenal. So that's research that was done. It's gonna open the door for new research?   Kristin Lowe  13:40  Potentially, exactly. I mean, you can hear about CRISPR-Cas9 and the news happening to everything else, but but not the crop you're interested in until someone figures out that they're all different. Right?   Craig Macmillan  13:52  Right, right. What, is their other pests that have come into the catalogue that you think are interesting in that people are doing interesting work on?   Kristin Lowe  13:59  Our most recent designated past is the Spotted Lantern Fly, we do not have that one yet. Depending on who you ask it seems inevitable that's making its way steadily west from Pennsylvania. And so that's one that the Board and has its eye on for for sure. But we don't have it yet, but we're accepting proposals for it. Because we're trying to be ready. It's actually pretty rare that you can eradicate a, an invasive pest. The fact that California did it with a European Grapevine Moth is it is an amazing example. What's next right? Yeah, so Spotted Lantern Fly is probably next on our horizon is being something that would certainly be problematic if it got here, and you know, trying to stay ahead about research to understand how it would and could be controlled.   Craig Macmillan  14:52  Does the does the board fund research in states other than Oregon and California?    Kristin Lowe  14:56  The board funds researchers. So we do have PIs from from out of state and from not from the West Coast. Absolutely. The Board funds projects, obviously, they have to have some applicability to what we're, what our problems are and what we're concerned with. But yeah, there's no real state, state by state guideline.   Craig Macmillan  15:16  Right. Right. Right. Well, you know, you mentioned the review process. I just want to shift gears to that. What are the boxes that need to be checked or the hurdles that need to be cleared to get a project funded? What are the what are the criteria that the board and the written in the reviewers are looking for?   Kristin Lowe  15:31  Oh, sure. Well, I believe it's even just out there when we send up the call for proposals. But it just basically has to be really good science. It needs to be well, you know, well justified that there's either preliminary data or an excellent premise from a different crop. Or another reason why this idea would work. There have to be sound and detailed materials and methods that are laid out there has to be good experimental design, especially when you get to the field level, right, proper controls, proper replication, the stats will have to work, right, all of those things, the budget needs to be reasonable, all those sorts of things for sure.   Craig Macmillan  16:09  Which reminds me how much money is available each year?   Kristin Lowe  16:12  It varies. So it will it will depend on on the assessment. And I'm not the numbers person, I'm more the idea person. But I yeah, I have something that could find a figure for you for later. But I think over the 20 years, I believe I read that we have had up to somewhere between 60 and 70 million. But that's not all straight for research. It also goes to the Person's Disease control program treatments for battling Glassy-Winged Sharpshooter outbreaks and some of those control.   Craig Macmillan  16:44  So what is the one thing related to this that you would recommend to our listeners? How can we how can we help?   Kristin Lowe  16:51  Oh, that's a great question. How can you help. Well, stay stay engaged. Make sure that everyone all the way up the chain knows what your problems are. And and what, you know what what you really need. This is grower money, that for this particular funding program, there are other agencies out there that are simply donation only, not for profit. But I would say, so this is assessment money so it's a little bit unique. But I would say in general, your problems are not unique. And, I mean, we all we're all dealing with some of the same problems. And we have to come together as an industry to, you know, industry to help solve them. A, stay informed, work with researchers. One of the hardest things is for researchers to find field trials or fields that will let them come do some experimentation. They're always looking for industry partners, as sources of sick vines, helping to track patterns, helping to try new technology, just to collect data. Collaborators like that are always needed.   Craig Macmillan  17:57   I think that's some great encouragement. I think that's a great message. Don't be afraid to be a collaborator.   Kristin Lowe  18:01  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It gives you kind of a seat at the table. And researchers aren't growers. And so we need to have this kind of constant communication for there to be good outreach of what they found, to make sure it's applicable and that everyone understands it and and will adopt it too. The most frustrating thing is if something comes out, and people are slow to adopt it, even though it works. So staying informed about what's current, and what are what are new, good ideas.   Craig Macmillan  18:27  I think that's important. So pay attention.   Kristin Lowe  18:30  Yeah, get out there to grow our meetings and and industry meetings. And, yeah, a lot of these researchers do try very hard to do outreach. They hear you if you're if you're there and are showing up for the conversation.   Craig Macmillan  18:43  If I wanted to be a collaborator, how can I make myself available?   Kristin Lowe  18:46  Oh, gosh, that's a good question. Well, first of all, you would need to know what was going on. So you would need to need to, you know, go to meetings, listen to these people talk, you know, decide if you have similar problems. Almost all of them pass up their email and say, Look, yeah, I've got a place where I've got this, this issue going on. I've you know, been dealing with virus or I've been near dealing with Pierce's Disease. And do you need a field? You know, do you need data set? Some sort of field data or collaboration or a field site? Yeah.   Craig Macmillan  19:16  Well, that's fantastic. That's great advice. Where can people find out more about you?   Kristin Lowe  19:21  Oh, me personally? Okay, well, sure. I've been I started a consulting company almost 10 years ago, and my website is vinebalancedconsulting.com. I am largely based out of the Napa-Sonoma area, and keep in my toe in the research world because it's exciting. And viticulture is a science. That's one reason why I love it.   Craig Macmillan  19:44  It's nice to talk somebody loves science. Yeah. I love talking about science. It's so much fun. Well, I think it's time today I want to thank Kristin Lowe, who is the Research Coordinator for the Pierces Disease/Glassy-Winged Sharpshooter Board and President of Vine Balance Consulting. Check out the website we'll have links and notes of where to go and we look forward to talking to you again.   Kristin Lowe  20:08  You're most welcome. Thank you for the opportunity. Have a great growing season.   Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Do you eat healthy? Do you take the time and expense to prepare your meals and buy organic and "natural" foods? Well how do you KNOW you're actually getting what you think you're getting and are consuming food the way nature intended? If eating natural and being healthy is important to you, you don't want to miss this one! In this episode we talk about the current reality of the way we humans produce, consume and interact with our food and nature AND I share my favorite all natural *skin serum that I use every day!! My guest, Jared Pickard, is a founder of the Be Here Farm + Nature, a family owned mountaintop homestead set on 300 acres in Saint Helena, CA where he and his wife Velisa have restored a formerly logged and ecologically desolate landscape into a vibrant, healthy ecosystem featuring a wildly diverse farm that is home to over 350 varieties of fruits, vegetables, herbs and flowers. Inspired by the abundance of the farm and land, the couple has developed a very unique collection of biodynamic self care offerings. Originally, all of this was done in preparation for the opening of a world class hospitality experience, designed to bring overnight guests onto the land for leisure and transformation…BUT all of this changed in September of 2020 when the Napa/Sonoma region was hit with devastating wildfires, including the Be Here Farm property. From Wall Street to regenerative farming and from an advanced dream-plan to something abruptly new, Jared Pickard has walked through life's trials of fire and comes to this show with an amazing perspective on the human journey. He shares groundbreaking information on what the “organic” label actually (doesn't) mean, and provides easy, practical tips for really understanding the quality of food you put into your body. We also talk about my FAVORITE skincare product, Be Here Farm's *Summer Solstice Serum. Jared has created the cleanest, most potent self care offerings imaginable– and in this episode you'll learn about the wildcrafted ingredients, solar processing and careful packaging that make his creations so magical. And GUESS WHAT? As an Awakening Aphrodite listener, you receive a special discount and open invitation to contact Jared about the Be Here Farm's offerings: For those interested they can head to sunpotion.com to try out our Summer Solstice Serum (which we talk about, I use every day and I show on the video!) and get a ten percent discount just for Awakening Aphrodite listeners with code “amylove” (all lower case)! You can follow Jared and Be Here Farm + Nature on Instagram @beherefarm or email love@beherefarm.com directly for product information, a complimentary (for customers) video consultation and guided facial relaxation at your interest! TIME STAMPS 00:16:09 The Be Here Farm + Nature Transition 00:22:14 What Is The Dream? 00:30:25 What “Organic” Labels Really Mean 00:45:32 The Origin Of Chemical Fertilizers 00:49:20 Is “Organic” Always Better? 00:52:26 Jared's Tips For Knowing Your Food 00:56:47 Is Buying “Organic” Worth The Extra Money? 01:02:01 Can I Just Wash Off The Pesticides? 01:09:32 Paul Chek's “I, We, All” Concept 01:14:57 Amy's Summer Solstice Serum Testimony 01:23:55 The Creation Process Of Be Here Now Products 01:28:25 Behind The Logo 01:32:57 Jared's Offer For Awakening Aphrodite Listeners 01:37:25 Miracles And The Moon's Perspective FIND AMY AT amyfournier.com and watch this episode on Awakening Aphrodite Podcast/FitAmyTV!

Do you eat healthy? Do you take the time and expense to prepare your meals and buy organic and "natural" foods? Well how do you KNOW you're actually getting what you think you're getting and are consuming food the way nature intended? If eating natural and being healthy is important to you, you don't want to miss this one! In this episode we talk about the current reality of the way we humans produce, consume and interact with our food and nature AND I share my favorite all natural *skin serum that I use every day!! My guest, Jared Pickard, is a founder of the Be Here Farm + Nature, a family owned mountaintop homestead set on 300 acres in Saint Helena, CA where he and his wife Velisa have restored a formerly logged and ecologically desolate landscape into a vibrant, healthy ecosystem featuring a wildly diverse farm that is home to over 350 varieties of fruits, vegetables, herbs and flowers. Inspired by the abundance of the farm and land, the couple has developed a very unique collection of biodynamic self care offerings. Originally, all of this was done in preparation for the opening of a world class hospitality experience, designed to bring overnight guests onto the land for leisure and transformation…BUT all of this changed in September of 2020 when the Napa/Sonoma region was hit with devastating wildfires, including the Be Here Farm property. From Wall Street to regenerative farming and from an advanced dream-plan to something abruptly new, Jared Pickard has walked through life's trials of fire and comes to this show with an amazing perspective on the human journey. He shares groundbreaking information on what the “organic” label actually (doesn't) mean, and provides easy, practical tips for really understanding the quality of food you put into your body. We also talk about my FAVORITE skincare product, Be Here Farm's *Summer Solstice Serum. Jared has created the cleanest, most potent self care offerings imaginable– and in this episode you'll learn about the wildcrafted ingredients, solar processing and careful packaging that make his creations so magical. And GUESS WHAT? As an Awakening Aphrodite listener, you receive a special discount and open invitation to contact Jared about the Be Here Farm's offerings: For those interested they can head to sunpotion.com to try out our Summer Solstice Serum (which we talk about, I use every day and I show on the video!) and get a ten percent discount just for Awakening Aphrodite listeners with code “amylove” (all lower case)! You can follow Jared and Be Here Farm + Nature on Instagram @beherefarm or email love@beherefarm.com directly for product information, a complimentary (for customers) video consultation and guided facial relaxation at your interest! TIME STAMPS 00:16:09 The Be Here Farm + Nature Transition 00:22:14 What Is The Dream? 00:30:25 What “Organic” Labels Really Mean 00:45:32 The Origin Of Chemical Fertilizers 00:49:20 Is “Organic” Always Better? 00:52:26 Jared's Tips For Knowing Your Food 00:56:47 Is Buying “Organic” Worth The Extra Money? 01:02:01 Can I Just Wash Off The Pesticides? 01:09:32 Paul Chek's “I, We, All” Concept 01:14:57 Amy's Summer Solstice Serum Testimony 01:23:55 The Creation Process Of Be Here Now Products 01:28:25 Behind The Logo 01:32:57 Jared's Offer For Awakening Aphrodite Listeners 01:37:25 Miracles And The Moon's Perspective FIND AMY AT amyfournier.com and watch this episode on Awakening Aphrodite Podcast/FitAmyTV!

Do you eat healthy? Do you take the time and expense to prepare your meals and buy organic and "natural" foods? Well how do you KNOW you're actually getting what you think you're getting and are consuming food the way nature intended? If eating natural and being healthy is important to you, you don't want to miss this one! In this episode we talk about the current reality of the way we humans produce, consume and interact with our food and nature AND I share my favorite all natural *skin serum that I use every day!! My guest, Jared Pickard, is a founder of the Be Here Farm + Nature, a family owned mountaintop homestead set on 300 acres in Saint Helena, CA where he and his wife Velisa have restored a formerly logged and ecologically desolate landscape into a vibrant, healthy ecosystem featuring a wildly diverse farm that is home to over 350 varieties of fruits, vegetables, herbs and flowers. Inspired by the abundance of the farm and land, the couple has developed a very unique collection of biodynamic self care offerings. Originally, all of this was done in preparation for the opening of a world class hospitality experience, designed to bring overnight guests onto the land for leisure and transformation…BUT all of this changed in September of 2020 when the Napa/Sonoma region was hit with devastating wildfires, including the Be Here Farm property. From Wall Street to regenerative farming and from an advanced dream-plan to something abruptly new, Jared Pickard has walked through life's trials of fire and comes to this show with an amazing perspective on the human journey. He shares groundbreaking information on what the “organic” label actually (doesn't) mean, and provides easy, practical tips for really understanding the quality of food you put into your body. We also talk about my FAVORITE skincare product, Be Here Farm's *Summer Solstice Serum. Jared has created the cleanest, most potent self care offerings imaginable– and in this episode you'll learn about the wildcrafted ingredients, solar processing and careful packaging that make his creations so magical. And GUESS WHAT? As an Awakening Aphrodite listener, you receive a special discount and open invitation to contact Jared about the Be Here Farm's offerings: For those interested they can head to sunpotion.com to try out our Summer Solstice Serum (which we talk about, I use every day and I show on the video!) and get a ten percent discount just for Awakening Aphrodite listeners with code “amylove” (all lower case)! You can follow Jared and Be Here Farm + Nature on Instagram @beherefarm or email love@beherefarm.com directly for product information, a complimentary (for customers) video consultation and guided facial relaxation at your interest! TIME STAMPS 00:16:09 The Be Here Farm + Nature Transition 00:22:14 What Is The Dream? 00:30:25 What “Organic” Labels Really Mean 00:45:32 The Origin Of Chemical Fertilizers 00:49:20 Is “Organic” Always Better? 00:52:26 Jared's Tips For Knowing Your Food 00:56:47 Is Buying “Organic” Worth The Extra Money? 01:02:01 Can I Just Wash Off The Pesticides? 01:09:32 Paul Chek's “I, We, All” Concept 01:14:57 Amy's Summer Solstice Serum Testimony 01:23:55 The Creation Process Of Be Here Now Products 01:28:25 Behind The Logo 01:32:57 Jared's Offer For Awakening Aphrodite Listeners 01:37:25 Miracles And The Moon's Perspective FIND AMY AT amyfournier.com and watch this episode on Awakening Aphrodite Podcast/FitAmyTV!

Jesse, Lica, and Nate discuss the rumors of the possibility of a serial killer in the North Coast which led to the dangers of being a woman. Then we talked about the photos Magic Johnson posted of California's governor Gavin Newsom, who just extended the mask mandate until February 15 taking photos mask less at the Niner vs Rams game in LA. This stirs up a heated discussion about the distain for mask, and hypocrisy.

This week we sit down face to face with Moriah Wilson to learn her backstory and what set the stage for her breakout racing year in 2021. Episode sponsor: Competitive Cyclist, use code 'TheGravelRide' for 15% off Join the Ridership Support the Podcast Episode Transcription, please excuse the typos: Moriah Wilson [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello and welcome to the gravel ride podcast. I'm your host Craig Dalton this week on the podcast. We have Moriah Wilson. A local mill valley, California resident, at least as of the time of recording who had a breakout year in 2021 on the gravel scene. I first started seeing Moriah's results in the grasshopper series. And if anybody knows the grasshopper series, if you're doing well there, you're likely going to do well anywhere.  [00:00:30] This proved to be true for Moriah with great success out at Unbound at VWR and many other places on the calendar. Culminating with a win at the end of the season at big sugar, gravel. [00:00:42] This conversation happened to be recorded in my backyard. So please enjoy the ambience that nature can provide. Before we jump in i need to thank this week sponsor competitive cyclist.  [00:00:54] From derailleurs to bar tape nutrition, to racks trainers, to tires, helmets, to bibs the cycling kind and beyond. If you spent hours of online researching your dream bike. Some people love this stuff almost as much as the experts that competitive cyclists.com. I've mentioned the competitive cyclist gear heads before.  [00:01:14] They're equal parts, customer service and cycling fanatics. They're former pro athletes, Olympians and seasoned athletes with years of experience. All available by phone, email, or chat for product recommendations and hard won advice.  [00:01:28] If you're like me and constantly confused about brake pads, whether I should get steel, organic steel centered or aluminum, and want to figure out the differences once. And for all. The gear heads are there for you. If you have questions about gravel, bike frames, gravel tires, et cetera. I found the gearheads incredibly knowledgeable in this domain.  [00:01:51] I mentioned early on that had a conversation with a gearhead named Maggie, and I kind of walked her through what type of bike I was wanting to buy if I was going to buy a new bike and she really nailed it. Competitive cyclist as a wide range of gravel frames and bikes available that can suit any type of writing need.  [00:02:09] I very much appreciated the hustle of the competitive cyclist team and my last order as I was down to the metal on my brake pads. So it was great to get some replacements in there.  [00:02:19] Fortunately, they've got a 100% return guarantee. So if I screwed up the order, like I have been known to do in the past with brake pads. I know they've got my back. [00:02:28] Go on over to competitive cyclists.com/the gravel ride and enter promo code thug, gravel ride to get 15% off your first order. Plus free shipping on orders, $50 or more. Some exclusions apply. Go right now and get that 15% off and free shipping@competitivecyclists.com slash the gravel ride. And remember that promo code is the gravel ride.  [00:02:54] Would that business out of the way, let's jump right into my interview with Moriah Wilson.  [00:02:59] Moriah. Welcome to the show.  [00:03:01] Moriah Wilson: Thanks for having me and Craig, [00:03:02] Craig Dalton: welcome to the backyard.  [00:03:04] Moriah Wilson: Yeah. Great to be here. Great to be in person with you. As I was  [00:03:06] saying, this is rare instance for me. I think it's about a dozen people. I've got the opportunity to interview face-to-face so it's awesome to have you as a local guest. [00:03:15] Well, when you're in the bed, You make  [00:03:17] Craig Dalton: sense? Yeah. Actually I was super stoked to start seeing your name and seeing mill valley after it. Yeah. Earlier in the year. So that was great. But I'd always like to start off the show by just learning a little bit about your background and how you found your way to gravel cycling, because I know it's a fairly recent affair  [00:03:33] Moriah Wilson: for you. [00:03:34] Yeah, it is definitely the competitive side of. Of cycling is pretty new to me, but I have roots in it, going back to when I was pretty young. So I guess like a quick background, I grew up in Vermont to pretty active, like outdoorsy family, grow up doing a lot of skiing. My dad was an Alpine ski racer and album. [00:03:56] Ski racing coach when I was younger. So I got into racing competitively doing that for a while and ended up racing in college. And. Mountain biking with my parents. And then my friends in the summers in middle school, there's not a lot to do in the town. I grew up in Vermont. It was kinda like just a hobby. [00:04:17] And then I used it to train for skiing as well as I got older. And yeah, so it was pretty like casual, I think for a while. And then when I graduated from college, I moved out to the bay and. Bought a gravel bright bike and well was a cross bike, but I used it as a gravel bike and got connected to some women who were trying to raise cross and invited me to go to some cross races with them. [00:04:43] So I said, why not sure? Like I like to compete. I miss kind of ski racing. And so I did that ended up racing like a full season of cross in 2019. Went across national. Did a couple of gravel races as well. And then COVID happened that early winter, obviously, and nothing, no more racing for a while, but I just kept getting more and more into riding. [00:05:08] Didn't like, yeah, it didn't really step back. Just traveled a lot and rode as much as I could. And then. Earlier this year, I'm signed up for all the races that I could not really knowing what I would get into and having no expectations really at all. And like the results side of things, but just like really excited. [00:05:31] Do some more racing because I had so much fun in 2019 and yeah, I ended up having a pretty great season, nice.  [00:05:38] Craig Dalton: So when you, when collegiate ski racing ended, did you figure that's the end of what you wanted to do in ski racing? And yeah, like  [00:05:46] Moriah Wilson: ski racing is really hard. It I don't know there are other sports like running or something where you maybe have avenues after college, but it's a little bit like. [00:05:55] Like biking, but you really need like a solid program and a lot, it requires a lot of resources, right? Like you need, you definitely need a coach. You pretty much need a team to keep doing it. And like after college, unless you're at a certain level where you're going to world cups or on an Olympic trajectory, like there's not a lot of. [00:06:18] Reason to keep doing it, so yeah, I think most athletes at the end of their college career, pretty much like rapid.  [00:06:27] Craig Dalton: The cyclocross scene, must've been a fun, attractive way to start cycling. It's just so irreverent and so often, particularly in the bay area, just easy to get to the events you sucked in by the community element of it. [00:06:39] Moriah Wilson: Yeah, definitely. Like the vibes at cross races are always so fun. Oh, I cross national. So it's amazing. Just like the energy, the heckling, like it's such a fun spectator sport that I think you end up like. Yeah, with kind of just a good vibes all around. And I really liked that and it did remind me a lot of skiing. [00:07:01] Cause I think there's a lot of that in skiing as well. And so I think that was attractive to me. Did  [00:07:06] Craig Dalton: you immediately recognize that you had a great engine for the sport?  [00:07:10] Moriah Wilson: Yeah. I've I've known that I had a good engine. Like I've. Been more naturally I don't know, fueled for endurance sports, even from a young age, probably should have been a Nordic skier instead of an Alpine skier. [00:07:27] People tried to convince me to convert, but I was like, no. Downhills more fun, too much fun. And, but yeah, I ha I grew up, or one of my ski coaches growing up was really into biking and he always said oh, you could go to the Olympics for mountain biking once you finished skiing. And I always had that in the back of my mind oh, maybe someday, like I could become a good cyclist of some sort and. [00:07:53] I didn't really know what that meant or what that would look like, but I definitely had an idea that mountain bike racing of some sort would be interesting to try out after college. And I did actually do a bit of cross country racing in high school and college just dabbled in a little bit like one or two races a year in Vermont. [00:08:14] And really liked it. So thought maybe I would give it a try. That's why I tried the cross thing  [00:08:21] Craig Dalton: where you living in Marin when you started on  [00:08:23] Moriah Wilson: the cross bike? No, I was living in the city at the time. Okay. Yeah.  [00:08:27] Craig Dalton: Well, you doing longer rides, I know it's obviously cyclocross racing is the shorter course racing, but since the, you have the capable bike, a lot of people ride across the bridge and go, oh  [00:08:35] Moriah Wilson: yeah, no, I was definitely riding in the headlines a lot. [00:08:38] Like I wasn't riding. Doing as long of rides as I'm doing now, because I was still getting into it. But I was building up to at that point, just riding my bike every day, which hadn't been something I'd been doing before that it was like a ride my bike. Do you know, maybe once or twice a week and then two to three times a week. [00:08:54] And so I was just building up at that time. But yeah, the Headlands were definitely where. Learned to grab a ride, I  [00:09:01] Craig Dalton: guess. Yeah. It seems like with the cyclocross race season being in the winter, you've got this bike, you've got these great Hills out in Marin. It's natural that you're going to continue to ride. [00:09:11] Is it some of your cyclocross friends that sort of talked about gravel racing or obviously you were going to be aware of it? What was the first race that you signed up for?  [00:09:20] Moriah Wilson: The first race that I did, I think was old growth. In 2019. Yeah. In August or September, maybe. So I guess it was actually before I did. [00:09:35] I can't quite remember. And then I did grind Duro as well, that year in 2019. So  [00:09:40] Craig Dalton: it's a two quite different races. Old growth classic. I find it to be, it was a great adventurous race. Like you just felt like you were way out there so far. It had some really stern climbs and  [00:09:51] Moriah Wilson: The, I will never forget the end of that course. [00:09:53] Like how Steve, this is so steep.  [00:09:57] Craig Dalton: Yeah, exactly. That's a great one. And then Grindr obviously is one that tests. Your full bag of tricks. It's got very mountain biking type stuff. We on a mountain bike. I was  [00:10:06] Moriah Wilson: on my cross bike for that. And yeah, but had a blast. Like I, since I like have a background in mountain biking, it was, I felt pretty comfortable on it. [00:10:16] And I think at that, by that time I had, ridden that bike in the Headlands enough that yeah, at first I remember riding in the Headlands in. Skinny gravel tires and being like, what is this about? I need my mountain bike for this, and now it's like nothing. But yeah, the Headlands, they do have their, technical sections at times. [00:10:37] Yeah. That's why  [00:10:38] Craig Dalton: it's great. On drop our bikes, it can make any of this stuff exciting if you go fast enough, for sure. Yeah.  [00:10:44] Moriah Wilson: Yeah.  [00:10:45] Craig Dalton: So then. Presumably, you went into a full cross season and then did that drop you at, through the beginning of the pandemic in 2020?  [00:10:52] Moriah Wilson: And then I did two grasshopper races. [00:10:55] I did a low gap and Sweetwater and that was like January and February of 20, 20, 20 before everything shut down. Everything  [00:11:04] Craig Dalton: shut down. Yeah. Yeah. And then it goes quiet and you were doing some other things. Had you had in your mind that 20, 21, assuming that events were going to open back up, that you are going to really go for it and register for a bunch of events? [00:11:16] Moriah Wilson: Yeah. I was like, I'm going to register for as much as I can. And I signed up for Unbound and Everything that I could. And really just wanted to use the years, like a learning experience. I think like it's rare to go into those events, as a beginner or first timer and see a lot of success. [00:11:33] And yeah, I know that like maybe I have the fitness. No, all the details. I don't definitely still don't have all the details dial. There's a lot. I made a lot of mistakes this year that costs me some races. And so I had a lot of good learning experiences and that really was just my goal this year. [00:11:49] And to have had, some of the results that I. I did have was just like a cherry on the top. Yes. Had you  [00:11:58] Craig Dalton: forged some of the relationships you must have now with some of the other female athletes that live around this area to get a gauge for oh, I can ride with Amedee or,  [00:12:07] Moriah Wilson: yeah, I think like between the races that I did in 2020, before COVID and then like some of the, or like earlier races this year, like the local one. [00:12:21] I guess I did one or two hoppers and a couple others. I knew that I probably had what it took from a fitness standpoint to compete with the top female athletes, just because, there are so many really strong female riders in the bay. It's pretty crazy. So it was nice to have. [00:12:43] Like confidence, I think, going to Unbound and going to, some of the other races that draw a wider range of athletes. So yeah,  [00:12:53] Craig Dalton: Yeah. That must have been interesting. So going into 2021 signing up for all these races where you just planning on self-finance. The races, or did you have industry contacts that you could leverage at that point? [00:13:06] Moriah Wilson: No. Everything was pretty much, self-financed the only thing that like I had one sponsor this past year that was Sporkful as a kid sponsor. And they were able to help me out from a financial standpoint. But other than that, it was like, I'm trying to think. I really didn't. Any other help. It was all just, yeah. [00:13:27] Yeah.  [00:13:27] Craig Dalton: It's funny. For me, it's being a fan of the sport. 2020 was this interesting black box where there was all particularly on the women's side of the racing scene. There's all these great women coming up and showing like a little glimmer, maybe. Like a couple of races before the pandemic, or did some major personal effort, like an F Katie or a Strava hill climbing all these different things that you're like, gosh, there's a lot of talent out here and then racing starts opening up, but you're not traveling super far. [00:13:57] So it's like the Northern California women you were seeing who is fast in the grasshoppers. Are the things that are going on in the Midwest. And then eventually it all started to come together when you have like a BWR or something like that. So it's been super fascinating as a fan to watch all these great women come out of nowhere and, see your name on top of the leaderboard. [00:14:16] It's been a lot of fun to watch.  [00:14:18] Moriah Wilson: Yeah, it was really fun to get to know the group of women that's out there. I think this is such a diverse. Field coming from lots of different backgrounds and everyone's super strong. And I think on any given day, given whatever conditions, certain amount of luck, like anything could happen and it's really dynamic racing going on right now. [00:14:40] It's really fun to be a part of. I've really enjoyed it. And you've  [00:14:43] Craig Dalton: been tackling things that have very different profiles, obviously BWR San Diego, long long road section that really pay it, play a big part in it. Unbound having that super long distance of 200 miles, all these different races. [00:15:00] Draw on different skillsets and you seem to be doing pretty well across the board. Is there an area or a type of course, that you feel more confident in than others?  [00:15:09] Moriah Wilson: Yeah, definitely. I think courses that have a lot of climbing definitely suit me. I'm not really. Flats are hard for me. I'm not the best group rider like drafting holding onto wheels is not something that I've quite figured out yet. [00:15:23] I'm working on it really hard. I hope to get a lot better this year. Yeah, so stuff that's got a lot of climbing and doesn't require like a lot of team tactics. Definitely suit me at the moment. And then anything that's also. Has some sort of technical component to it, maybe a little bit of single track. [00:15:41] I think that played to my advantage at BWR, even though there were, there was so much road in it. And I'm trying to think of what else it was like that this year.  [00:15:52] Craig Dalton: Okay, where you went down to big  [00:15:53] Moriah Wilson: sugar, right? Yeah. Big sugar had a little bit of that. Yeah.  [00:15:57] Craig Dalton: Yeah. And the least the chunky roads require a little bit of confidence coming downhill. [00:16:01] Totally. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's one of the reasons I enjoy interviewing so many event organizers is that there's such an art to creating these events and With a mountain bike background. I'm always pro the single track sections. The more technical  [00:16:15] Moriah Wilson: sections. I love that stuff. Yeah. So  [00:16:18] Craig Dalton: fun. [00:16:18] And I think, you know what it's going to be, what keeps the sport interesting because you can't road racing dynamics. Aren't going to play in that type of environment. So I always love when it advantages given to the more off-road type athletes.  [00:16:32] Moriah Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. It's really cool. To see how different courses can favor certain writers. [00:16:39] And it'll be interesting how, like what to see what happens with the lifetime like grand Prix and how, because that's such a diverse series now you've got Leadville and then unbounded, sea Otter, and like all those are so different. It's cool that there, there will be a way to. Figure out who's the best like diverse writers. [00:17:01] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I think it's really neat that there's an even tighter integration between the mountain epic mountain bike kind of rides and gravel racing these days. Yeah, because I do think that's, that's where the fun and the sport is.  [00:17:13] Moriah Wilson: Definitely. Yeah.  [00:17:14] Craig Dalton: Have you heard any word from lifetime as to like their selection process or I'm assuming you're throwing your hat in the ring for that? [00:17:21] Moriah Wilson: Oh yeah, for sure. I don't know what the selection process involves. I have no idea. So yeah, we'll see. I forget when they did, they're like announcing who everyone is. I think it's in the next couple. Maybe I can't remember. But yeah. I'm excited. I hope. Yeah.  [00:17:43] Craig Dalton: So what, what does 2022 look like for you? [00:17:46] What do you what are some of the races you really want to do well at either? Because they were just a hell of a lot of fun or you think that prestige is going to be good for your career?  [00:17:55] Moriah Wilson: Yeah. I think the whole lifetime series Leadville, for sure. I think finishing second was so incredible this year, but I really want to win to be honest. [00:18:10] Like I, I want to win that one.  [00:18:13] Yeah. I think it suits me really well. I had a lot of fun on that course and  [00:18:19] Craig Dalton: being up at elevation,  [00:18:20] Moriah Wilson: I felt amazing. Like I actually felt really good at elevation. I did acclimate for a couple of weeks leading up to it. But I, my theory and I there's no nothing scientific about this. [00:18:32] I have no idea if this is the case, but because I've spent so much time at altitude as a ski racer, I lived everywhere. In November, December, I would move out to Frisco, which is super close to Leadville. It's like 9,000, 8,009,000 feet. And spend a month there training, going to Vail and copper. [00:18:53] And yeah, so I've lived and trained at altitude in a much different way than like an endurance athlete, would train. But I still think that. From such a young age. Like I started going to Frisco as, I don't know, 12 year old. So I think I've have a lot of years of spending time at altitude. [00:19:13] And I think my body is, has somehow adapted to it is my theory.  [00:19:19] Craig Dalton: What do you think the mix between mountain biking and gravel racing, it's going to look like when your calendar pans out,  [00:19:24] Moriah Wilson: That's hard to say. I think it's, I think it's going to end up being still quite gravel focused. Maybe like 70% gravel, 30% mountain. [00:19:36] If I had to put a percentage on it right now. But yeah, I definitely hope to do a bit more mountain it's just so fun and yeah.  [00:19:44] Craig Dalton: So on the gravel side, what are the events you're stoked to go back to? And why? On the  [00:19:49] Moriah Wilson: gravel side? I am excited for Unbound because I want some redemption there. Yeah. I got, I had, I flooded three times and yeah. [00:20:03] Had to tube every time and it was just a disaster. Like still finished the race. Like it was good to. I think it was good to have faced that adversity and have to like, adjust my goals and expectations halfway through such a big event like that. It was good practice. But. [00:20:22] Yeah. I remember finishing that race and being like, I just want to do it again. I want to do it again right now. And not be a little bit more prepared. Like we probably shouldn't have run the tires that I ran. And there were some other details that, I think after this season I will. Be more prepared for going into all the races. [00:20:42] Craig Dalton: And I think going, having the determination to fix those flats and still ending up in the top 10 shows you that it's just important to keep moving forward and moving forward, it's just fixing the flat, getting back on the bike. Cause you never know what's going to befell your other competitors. [00:20:56] Moriah Wilson: Yes, totally. And I think there's a lot to be said for. Running into sort of those obstacles. It's always easy to keep going or, it's still not easy, but it's easy to keep going when you're having a good day and you don't run into any challenges, but when you run into challenges and adversity and it maybe puts an end to the result that you hoped to accomplish on that day. [00:21:19] It makes it a lot harder to keep going. I definitely. Oh, I had some dark moments there where I really wanted to quit and I was super proud of myself for just keeping, going and finishing that race  [00:21:31] Craig Dalton: at huge. And no one can ever take that away from you. So anytime you're facing adversity in the future, you're going to look back and say I know I can do it. [00:21:39] I'm going to have those sucky moments, but yeah, I'm going to get through it.  [00:21:42] Moriah Wilson: Exactly. Yeah, I think. You learn a lot more from the challenges that you face than you do from any of the smooth sailing moments, so yeah that's one that I'm excited for. I'm excited. I'm think I'm going to do rule three. [00:21:56] I'm really excited for that one. I love Bentonville. I had a great time there this fall. Big sugar, I think will always hold a special place in my heart. That was a really fun race. And yeah, I think the the diversity of that course is going to  [00:22:09] Craig Dalton: be really interesting. That one looked like a lot of fun. [00:22:12] And you can always tell, I think by some of the writers who have been drawn to it, the type of experience that it's going to benefit pace. Winning over there and talking about how he just understood the skill set of the people around him and even talking to Ian Boswell about it. And he just, the, I know I'm going to fall apart when I hit the single track. [00:22:30] So I'm just going to do everything I can within the place. I know that I can Excel.  [00:22:34] Moriah Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. It definitely everyone's going to have a different strategy, which is pretty cool. So yeah, I'm excited for that one. I'm trying to think what else? Oh, I think I'm going to do Vermont Overland. I skipped that one this year. [00:22:47] It just didn't really work with my schedule. But I'm really excited to do that. I'm from Vermont and I've heard amazing things. I love those roads around that area. It's like near where I went to college. Yeah, that'll be a fun one. You must  [00:22:59] Craig Dalton: still have friends back in that scene in Vermont. [00:23:01] Moriah Wilson: Oh yeah. Yeah. It's always fun. I did rooted Vermont this past year and then that was probably one of my favorite races just from a memory standpoint. The community was so great. It was the first time my parents like had watched me, got to watch me race. And ran into a lot of old friends, a lot of old friendships skiing and from biking and just growing up and stuff. [00:23:23] And I think the same thing will be the case for Vermont Overland. So yeah, I really  [00:23:28] Craig Dalton: want to get over to rooted. I, my first mountain bike race ever was at Mount snow. Oh, Vermont, because I grew up on the east coast. I've got like great memories. Similarly. Like it was like an event that my parents came to and it's just so beautiful in that area. [00:23:41] Moriah Wilson: Rooted was so fun. Like I loved that course. It was really fast. Yeah. Really fast. Some really fun class four sections. It rained, which like I had just, it was like BWR two weeks earlier or something. And BWR was the hardest race I've ever done. It was so hot. Yeah, I definitely suffered from the heat on that race and then going to Vermont and having it rain and be like really nice temperature. [00:24:16] It was amazing. I enjoyed that too.  [00:24:19] Craig Dalton: One thing, the longer you stay here in the bay area, the worse you're going to get it riding in hot weather.  [00:24:23] Moriah Wilson: Yeah. I need to get better at I feel pretty good about how my body. At elevation, but the heat is something I need to figure out because I don't think I'm very good at it. [00:24:33] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. So same, like I'm just destroyed from living in the fog belt. Yeah.  [00:24:39] Moriah Wilson: Yeah. We'll have to see I'm to, I don't know. I don't know how to, I there's definitely ways you can, adapt your body to it. Need to do some research. Or just avoid those places. [00:24:49] Craig Dalton: Let's shift gears a little bit. Why don't you talk about the type of equipment you're riding?  [00:24:54] Moriah Wilson: Like which specific by,  [00:24:56] Craig Dalton: yeah. What bike or bike are you riding and what kind of, what tire with do you like to ride?  [00:25:01] Moriah Wilson: Yeah. So I just got a new specialized crux that. One that just came out in October. Before that I'd been racing on a diverge, an older diverge, actually it's like a couple of years old. [00:25:16] And I've only raced let's see, big sugar. It was my first time racing, my new crux. And I could not love that bike more. It is an app. Weapon. I don't know how to describe it better. It's so light and so nimble. But still I feel very comfortable on it and feel like it handles very well and it's very capable. [00:25:40] And I don't know. I always, I like, I prefer to be a little bit under biked. Like I, whenever I only have a hardtail mountain bike and I, but I. Bride that on, trails that most people would ride a pretty big, full suspension bike on. I like pushing the limits of what a bike is capable of doing. [00:25:58] So yeah. And then for tires I have been running Pathfinder 40 twos on my crux. That's what I ran a big sugar. That's what I've had since I got it. And I've been loving those.  [00:26:13] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that seems like a good size. I definitely had been in the 47 camp for a long time, but moved back down to 43. [00:26:20] He was like you, when you have solid off. Capabilities then you can handle a little bit narrower attire. Yeah. Although for a lot of people, particularly in Marin county, I recommend going as wide as they can. Cause a lot of times people that just aren't comfortable going downhill and you look at their bike and it's totally optimized around going up the hill. [00:26:39] Yeah.  [00:26:39] Moriah Wilson: All my diverge, I was mostly on 38 and I didn't ride it a ton around here, but And I didn't really like to ride it around here. Now. I think that I'm on 42 is I think it makes it so much better. And especially without having, the future shock on the Crocs and having it be just a pretty rigid, stiff bike having 48 versus, or 40 twos versus 30 eights. [00:27:06] It's nice. Yeah,  [00:27:07] Craig Dalton: it helps a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. And for the listener, you may recall, I spoke to Ben Edwards from specialized at about that bike. So you can get a little bit more details if you go back in your feed and listen to that conversation with Ben. Yeah. So have you had any, you've had such a great what I'll call a breakout season this year in 2021, have you been able to navigate the private tier sponsorship model and get a little bit more support going through. [00:27:32] Moriah Wilson: Yes I have. And it's still still figuring out the final details. And I definitely took my time sorting it all out. I debated maybe joining a team. There are definitely a number of teams that reached out to me and I thought maybe, that could possibly be the way to go, but I've been talking to a lot of people and reflecting on what I want to get out of this. [00:27:55] Really being able to set my own schedule and be in control of where I go and what my sponsors are and all that. The private tier like avenue seemed like the way to go. So that's definitely where I'm headed. And. Yeah, I'll be supported by specialized for next season and wahoo as well as a sponsor and the feed. [00:28:21] If you're familiar with a feed for nutrition and scratch as well. And then working on a couple others styling in, but I won't say, cause they're not finalized yet, but those are the ones that are pretty much. And yeah, I'm excited. It's definitely, taken some time to sort all that stuff out. [00:28:39] But I think no I'm pretty excited to be working with those brands and it'll be great to have their support. Yeah.  [00:28:46] Craig Dalton: A hundred percent. I guess that's the challenge with the private tier model. You just have to be stay on top of those discussions and meet the right people. Yeah. Cobbled together the right program. [00:28:56] That's going to make it all work versus a team. Maybe handing you a, a single document that says, here you go.  [00:29:03] Moriah Wilson: Yeah. There's some thing, certainly that's simple as an athlete, if that's not something you want to deal with, that makes a lot of sense. And, but I don't know. I think this is I want to be able to manage the. [00:29:16] Relationships more personally. And  [00:29:20] Craig Dalton: yeah. And are you gonna keep your day job at specialized  [00:29:25] Moriah Wilson: exam for this season? We'll see what who knows what's going to happen in the future? I have no idea. But yeah, I'm really fortunate. Be part of a great team who has given me a lot of support and flexibility in terms of, when I actually work, I definitely take time out of my day to train and work odd hours at times, work on the weekend, work at night. [00:29:46] I'm lucky to have that flexibility and that support and Yeah, we'll see how it goes. I think it'll be manageable this year. I'm definitely going to be traveling a lot. But I'm also fortunate that my job is I can do it remote very easily. I'll be going to the office. But otherwise like doing it on the road is really not too big of a  [00:30:08] Craig Dalton: deal. [00:30:09] That's great. It's great to have that supportive. Employer that just understands, like they can give you the flexibility. And the nice thing is a lot of times as a cyclist, you want nothing more than to be sitting up on a couch with a computer on your lap.  [00:30:21] Moriah Wilson: Totally. Like when I get home from a long ride, I'm like, I like, I don't want to go, like sometimes yeah. [00:30:30] Sitting at my desk or sitting on the couch, responding to emails is like the perfect thing that I need to do. Like it's great. Yeah. You need that rest and that recovery and it does balance each other out.  [00:30:44] Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's been a lot of fun. As the listener knows I work at a nonprofit called bike index is one of the things I do at my time. [00:30:50] And one of our communications director was on the Olympic track program. And it was hilarious, like getting emails from her immediately after seeing her like race ATrack world cup or, be at the Olympics. It's funny. But she said the same thing. It's. What else am I going to do? I'm just, I'm a legit legitimately needing to just sit around and not do anything. [00:31:10] So might as well exercise my brain and get some  [00:31:13] Moriah Wilson: work done. Yeah. Yeah, totally.  [00:31:16] Craig Dalton: Well, it seems like the bay area has been agreeing with you. And as we were saying offline, there's just so many great female athletes and male athletes around the area. Have you found that it's just a great place to train and make  [00:31:29] Moriah Wilson: connections? [00:31:30] It's the best place to train? I've definitely. Yeah. Now that I could feasibly go fully remote. Technically I'm not a remote employee right now. So I need to be based out of the bay, but, I've thought about moving out of the area and I just, I don't want to leave. [00:31:47] It's too good for where, like for the riding and where, what I want to be doing with writing right now. I just am always in awe of. The riding around here when they leave and come back getting on these roads and the trails and it always takes my breath away and I feel very motivated, I think when I'm here. [00:32:07] Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's so interesting. Living in the city, just riding across the golden gate bridge and San Francisco is such a vibrant city and then to come into Marin and be able to. Do a 50 mile loop and essentially be off-road the entire time is just such a luxury.  [00:32:19] Moriah Wilson: Yeah. It's you take it for granted? [00:32:22] Sometimes I think I'm like, growing up in Vermont, it's similar to, but you don't have the year round aspect of it. It can go for a gravel, endless gravel rides from my house in Vermont without ever touching pavement, but You can only do that, from may to October and then it's no, either us the time. [00:32:44] So being able to ride here year round is it's pretty special. Yeah.  [00:32:49] Craig Dalton: And I think you mentioned this with respect to BWR San Diego. It's like we don't have those long peddling miles necessarily. Everything is so up and down here that it, I don't know, it feels different on your body. So I'm with you when I get into a race. [00:33:03] We're an event with a lot of just rolling mile after mile these long distance things. I'm just not used to peddling that much consistently.  [00:33:11] Moriah Wilson: Yeah. I'm definitely going to try to get up further north this  [00:33:15] Craig Dalton: cat on [00:33:17] Moriah Wilson: this this winter get up to Napa Sonoma and kinda, I think the riding up there's a little bit. More aligned with,  [00:33:25] Craig Dalton: I think it's describing. Yeah. I think that's going to be more similar to maybe some of the mid-west miles you may get in your racing calendar.  [00:33:32] Moriah Wilson: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. [00:33:34] Yeah. Definitely. It can be hard to find flat miles. It doesn't really exist. I know that's  [00:33:40] Craig Dalton: why my trouble, like I just, there's no easy days. And it's so blessed that like within 10 minutes of here, I can be on some trail going up hill that I just, I want to be, off-road so much more than I want to be on a road that it's always ends up being uphill. [00:33:54] Yeah, definitely. I feel that. Yeah. Well, this was a lot of fun. I appreciate you coming over and giving us a little bit of an overview. It sounds like the cat is demanding that this interview is over. So maybe we have to listen to my feline Lord up there.  [00:34:09] Moriah Wilson: Well, thank you for having me. I'm really glad I was able to come and chat with you in person. [00:34:13] Yeah. Best of luck next year. Thank you so  [00:34:15] Craig Dalton: much.  [00:34:16] So that's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Big thanks to Moriah for coming by the backyard and for representing mill valley. So well out there on the national gravel calendar.  [00:34:28] Another thank you to competitive cyclists.com. Go over to competitive cyclists.com/the gravel ride and enter promo code thug, gravel ride. To get 15% off your first full priced order. Plus free shipping. On orders of $50 or more.  [00:34:43] I wanted to remind everybody who's listening to come on over to the ridership and join our free global forum for gravel cyclists. You can visit www.theridership.com. And join the conversation. We'd love to hear from you. If you've got any feedback about the podcast, you can direct message me there directly in a channel dedicated to the podcast, but much more importantly, you can talk to gravel, cyclists from all over the world to get beta on your local rides and to learn where to ride.  [00:35:13] If you're traveling.  [00:35:15] If you're looking to support the podcast directly, you can visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. Any, and all of your contributions are appreciated. And if you have a moment, ratings and reviews are hugely important for this podcast. I read everything that's written about the podcast and absolutely appreciate your feedback.  [00:35:35] Until next time. Here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels. 

Louis Pommery Brut NV-$20-Thinking French-Drinking CaliforniaI was about to buy a $14.99 Trader Joe's Reserve Sonoma Sparkling wine when I remembered there are Napa/Sonoma outposts of celebrated Champagne Houses.The Louis Pommery sells for $20, and it's Champagne big brother is CHampagne Pommery, the creator of Brut Champagne.I do not know a damn thing about Trader Joe's Reserve Sonoma Sparkling wine, $14.99.But I know a great deal about  Louis Pommery Brut NV at $20!Check out www.cheapwinefinder.com and listen to the podcast for all the essential details.

JJ, Doug and Michael wrap up this particular Napa / Sonoma excursion with a trip to one of Michael's favorites, Frog's Leap Winery. Listen in as they discuss the wines and history of Frog's Leap with their tasting and tour guide, Josh. Don't forget to subscribe to the Something to Wine About podcast so that you don't miss a single episode. While you're at it, please take a moment to write a short review and rate our show. It would be greatly appreciated! To learn more about wineries we've visited, listen to past episodes, and get to know your hosts, go to https://www.somethingtowineaboutpodcast.com/ and follow us on Facebook and Instagram.

Carrie recounts her 4 wine filled days in Napa/Sonoma

Elvis Wine is a new California Cabernet that rocks! Napa and Sonoma tourism is bouncing back. The Santa Barbara Woodies Car Show returns this summer. Sonoma's Train Town has reopened with some new rides. Happy 20th Anniversary to Temecula's South Coast Winery Resort & Spa! They have fun events planned all year.

Dan Smith planted the vines of Sweet Cheeks Vineyards throughout the 1980s and 1990s, selling grapes to other wineries before opening the tasting room Thanksgiving weekend of 2005. The name comes from the curious swell in our hillside. Winemaker, Leo Gabica, originally from the Philippines, moved to Oregon in 1994. Leo answered an Ad for Silvan Ridge night crew on the bottling line and fell in love with the industry. Dan offered Leo a job as our cellar master, and was our first employee hired. Leo took over as lead winemaker in 2013. Jessica, Dan's Granddaughter, became General Manager in 2016 at the age of 26 after a one year "sabbatical" of traveling and working in Napa/Sonoma. Dan's wife, Beth, took over as President after Dan's sudden passing in 2018.Beth's daughter, Katie, is our Marketing Director. Together, Beth, Leo, Katie and Jessicarun Sweet Cheeks Winery. The winery expanded and opened a second tasting room,Sweet Cheeks on 5th, in downtown Eugene at the Fifth Street Public Market. We focusprimarily on our DTC channel, but we do distribute in Oregon and parts of Washington,Lousiana and Florida.

Despite smoke damage to hundreds of thousands of Napa-Sonoma wine grapes, growers in the area say the 2020 harvest will be a very good vintage. We have the details. Despite the USDA’s efforts, a robust, high-speed Rural Broadband system is still lacking in rural California and many other areas of the country. More and more people surveyed say farmers are doing the right thing when it comes to sustainability. We talk a lot of turkey this Thanksgiving week, and we take a deep dive into the world of cover cropping here in California. All that, the extended weather outlook, and more…on this week’s KSTE Farm Hour.

Winegrape growers in the Napa Sonoma area are getting a better handle on the damage estimates to their fields and facilities. We have the staggering numbers. Another staggering number: 10 million acres burned due to wildfires this year. We’re not there yet, but we are approaching it…for the third time in five years. Farmers are looking for estate tax relief, we have that report. And, an update on the U.S. Mexico Canada trade agreement. All that, crop reports, a look at the extended weather…and we celebrate Bat Week. It’s all on this edition of the KSTE Farm Hour.

Even though the flames of September’s fires are subsiding there, wine grape growers in the Napa Sonoma area are still taking stock of the damage and lining up financial help. And winegrape growers with insurance face another obstacle in getting quick relief. Insurance companies want to see lab tests for smoke taint on wine grapes. But the laboratories that specialize in wine grape testing are overwhelmed; it could be a month or more before they can catch up. Raisin grapes in the Central Valley are also being effected by the smoke from surrounding fires. We talk with one raisin grape farmer who will explain. We have all that, crop reports, a look ahead at the week’s weather, and a chat with an organization that helps aspiring organic farmers learn the business in the Salinas Valley. It’s all on their week’s KSTE Farm Hour.

California wildfires continue their rapid spread throughout some very valuable wine country in our area. We have an update. Several farm groups are petitioning the federal government for more Covid-19 relief aid for farmworkers. What is California doing to stop the spread of illegal pesticides into the state? And, we talk with a Colusa County rice grower about the 2020 harvest. All that, crop reports, the weekly weather outlook and more, on this week’s KSTE Farm Hour. Let’s get started!

Excerpts from KTVU Fox 2 live update. Be safe Napa & Sonoma counties. Reminder: if you're in the line of the fires, cellular and WiFi service may be spotty, listen for the sirens. For Cal Fire information go to https://www.fire.ca.gov Text your ZIP CODE for local updates to 888777; Glass Fire in Napa County Evacuation Info and warnings https://bit.ly/3cBUTAZ Have a plan, in case of fire. http://www.ReadyForWildfire.org Stay informed. Be well. Be kind. Let's talk how we can help. Calendly.com/RelocationGal Mirella B. Kaell M.S. REALTOR GREEN SRES KW Bay Area Estates, Los Gatos, CA DRE 02057622 408-404-8156 --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/relocationgal/message

Once again, Northern and Central California wildfires plague the entire region, with thick smoke blanketing populous urban areas, while flames are whipping up throughout farm and ranch land here. And once again, wine grape growers in the Napa Sonoma area who are about to begin harvesting are worried about smoke taint to their grapes, a minor concern next to staving off possible fire damage to their properties. The ongoing heat wave also is widespread. The latest concern: fruit and vegetable crops in coastal areas where triple digit temperatures are very unusual. The latest Covid-19 induced farm dilemma: a shortage of replacement parts for agricultural machinery. And ag teachers throughout northern and central california’s colleges and high schools are scrambling, trying to figure out how to teach hands on classes such as welding and crop production…via the computer. We have all that, and more, on this week’s KSTE Farm Hour.

As mentioned in our last episode, we have about ten episodes we recorded late last year that we are rolling out over the next two months. The following show is one of those. Angelica Mabray is a rock star in the Napa Sonoma wine scene, currently the CEO of the Donum Estate, she leads the team there in creating world-class customer experiences. With many wine producers being forced to Pivot as of late, customer experience and loyalty are more important than ever. The oft ignored digital experience is now mission critical to all businesses, especially in the beverage space. Angelica believes that wine producers focus too much on transactional interactions when they should be building positive emotional experiences. The revenue will naturally follow. Think about this while listening - it takes five times more effort to attract a new customer than to retain a current one. So, this is kind of important. Now, on with the show. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/htbpodcast/support

Ever wanted to visit California Wine Country? In this episode, Kristina (my lovely wife!) describes what it's like to visit Napa Valley and Sonoma. New to wine or intimidated by the thought? Not to worry! This short guide will help you plan your trip.... --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Margaux Singleton has mastered the lifetime arts of social interaction, casual and interesting conversation, and for many years now the fine wines of Napa/Sonoma and Europe. She speaks of the characters that convinced her to come to Calistoga, and the wine and winemakers that convinced her to stay here.

The StoryThe Trader Joe's Grand Reserve Chalk Hill Cabernet Sauvignon 2018, actually the complete name includes Lot 96 and it is a Trader Joe's $12.99 exclusive wine. This wine is featured in Trader Joe's Fearless Flyer, but there is no mention of any technical details, is it 100% Cabernet Sauvignon? What are the rough details of the oak program? Nothing, but they do tell us it is from the Chalk Hill AVA.Chalk Hill is a relatively small sub-AVA located in the northeast corner of the Russian River AVA inside the Sonoma County AVA. While the Russian River AVA is a cool climate region well suited for Pinot Noir and Chardonnay the Chalk Hill AVA is warmer, harvest can occur several weeks earlier than the surrounding AVAs. This is a very hilly location and the soil is also unique, it is ancient volcanic ash, making this an attractive location for Cabernet Sauvignon.Typical Chalk Hill Cabernet Sauvignon start at around $20 and can go up to two or three times that price. You do not normally see Chalk Hill AVA on the label of discounted contracted store brands. There are only 5 wineries setting up shop in Chalk Hill and the vineyards under cultivation is a fraction of the greater Russian River AVA.A couple of details of note concerning the Trader Joe's Grand Reserve Chalk Hill Cabernet Sauvignon 2018 is that the bottle is a full size and weight Napa/Sonoma big boy Cabernet bottle and a real cork are used. I always keep my pulled corks for some unknown reason, I guess I will recycle them, but most are made of corks version of particle board or are some sort of synthetic. Real corks are rare in wine in the CheapWineFinder.com price range.Since $12.99 is a bump up from the usual $9.99 price of Trader Joe's Reserve wines. The cork and the bottle are typical of wine in the twenty dollars plus range, this may be a clue that the Chalk Hill Lot 96 may have been intended to sell for higher than its current price tag. I wouldn't think that Trader Joe's would mandate a real (and more expensive) cork or a heavy glass bottle that also adds to the price tag as an incentive to buy a $12.99 bottle of wine. You expect those details in a twenty-five dollar of wine.So, this is a Cabernet Sauvignon from a region that does not seem to sell off their excess grapes of finished wine to store brands with basic packaging that is above its price point. I am only playing detective here, I have no actual insight into the history of this Cab. But since store brands such as Trader Joe's have price advantages over retail wines, lower distribution costs and paying upfront for the bottles all add up to considerable cost savings. So, maybe this time this is an actual twenty buck wine selling for $12.99.I could easily be wrong and this is a $13 Cabernet Sauvignon selling for $12.99, but the clues left behind do say otherwise. The alcohol content is a ripe 14.5%.Trader Joe's Grand Reserve Chalk Hill Cabernet Sauvignon 2018 Tasting NotesThe color is a jammy, opaque black cherry red. The nose is a combination of ripe blackberries and raspberries, herbs and menthol, followed by chocolate powder and soft vanilla. This is a wine that may be a little bit young, not that it does not have good flavor it just seems a little "tight". This Cabernet starts with smooth, ripe blackberry, black pepper, juicy raspberry, and slightly rough herbs.The mid-palate add tart cherry, orange zest, a lightly rugged edge to the tannins (something welcome in a full-bodied cabernet Sauvignon) and a late hit of cool blueberry. The acidity is nicely balanced and the finish mirrors the body of the wine and sticks around for a while.The Summary The Trader Joe's Grand Reserve Chalk Hills Cabernet Sauvignon 2018 is a tasty classic Califonia Cabernet Sauvignon. My advice is to buy a couple of bottles now (it will sell out and when it is gone it is gone for good) and stick them in a cool, quiet spot at home. Wait until after the 4th of July to pop the top and t...

I am a huge believer in taking your future in your own hands. And if you’re wanting to expand into a higher-end market, or start attracting a specific type of client, Styled Shoots are an excellent way to do it. Today’s episode is all about styled shoots. I’ve personally done a handful of them, and I’m a believer that they can be extremely beneficial to our wedding film businesses. In today's episode, I'm interviewing Stephanie Teague, an event planner and stylist specializing in fine art weddings and occasions.She designs and coordinates fabulous events from Napa/Sonoma to Sacramento to Lake Tahoe and everywhere in between.--MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE--Visit this episode's page to download the Styled Shoot GuideStephanie Teague Events:Featured on: Wedding Chicks, Style Me Pretty, Ruffled, and the television network TLCInstagram: @stephanieteagueeventsWebsite: https://stephanieteagueevents.com--MORE RESOURCES FOR YOU--Check out my Instagram MasterclassLet's Connect on Instagram: @thelevelupco // @taylorpetrinovichCheck out these free resources:Download your Free Guide to Instagram Hashtags here.Are you ready to raise your prices? Click here to find out.Visit the Level Up Your Wedding Film Business website

Nicole Hankton Sales and Marketing Manager Walnut Creek Convention & Visitors Bureau The Walnut Creek Convention & Visitors Bureau seeks to introduce visitors, groups, and meetings to this unique region - located between San Francisco, Napa/Sonoma, and the Livermore Wine Valley. Discover scenic beauty, exceptional shopping, delicious dining, and wonderful hotels. Walnut Creek is the Jewel of the East Bay.

In this episode, rachel, Kendall, and Tina talk about: * Starting your own company to get a role in leadership :) * The fact that men are much more often picked/groomed for leadership within an org (see https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/gender-equality/women-in-the-workplace-2018) * What it's like to learn how to lead on the job * Getting cross-functional experience at startups * Another recommendation for "Radical Candor" * Where leadership comes from at Apple vs Google and how that affects outcomes * Unconscious bias in different promotion review processes * Why it might be a good thing that we can't quantify absolutely everything people enjoy * Bringing pragmatism into technical decisionmaking that can sometimes feel like religious arguments * The role of vulnerability in disagreements * Why women are often better at building concensus and planning for outcomes in business * Developing an appreciation for Italian wines after growing up on Napa/Sonoma wines * A recommendation for Blair Fox winery's Syrah You can find Tina on Twitter as @kmonkeyjam and she might find you on LinkedIn :) Special thanks to Mel Stanley for our theme music

Winemaker Clark Smith is back on California Wine Country with Steve Jaxon and Dan Berger, with some wines he has made from unusual grapes, including the native American variety called Norton. Clark Smith joins Steve Jaxon and Dan Berger on California Wine Country today. He has his own label WineSmith Wines, he is the winemaker for Diamond Ridge, and also an author and professor. His new book is called Postmodern Winemaking. Clark Smith dropped out of MIT in 1971, came to California and got a job in a liquor store. Eventually he tasted every wine in the store and he sold wine for 5 or 6 years. He made his first wine in 1976. When he decided to make wine, he ended up at Davis and finished his BA and MA in wine. Then, he had a series of jobs in wine and many jobs as a wine consultant. He makes his own wines and consults to about 120 wineries. He gives classes including fundamentals of wine chemistry and has taught over 4500 students. Dan Berger explains that today we have wine from grapes that nobody has ever heard of. There is a lot more wine than Chardonnay, Cabernet and Pinot Noir. For example, Don Chigazola a few weeks ago told about lots of white wines in Italy that are unknown here. There are also styles that nobody else is doing. Clark has a wine that he calls Faux Chablis and his current vintage is 2005. There are really two wine industries, says Clark. There are 64 wineries that make 95% of the volume of wine and 100% of what is sold in stores. This is like pop music. Then you have 25,000 wineries that make the other 5%, averaging 2,000 cases. Clark is one of these. He has to make his own kind of music. He has to have his own unique sound. So every wine he’s opening today, there is nobody else in California doing it. These wines are not in stores. You have to come see them. His wines come from all over California because the varieties are planted all over the state. Clark also says you have to get out of the Napa / Sonoma high real-estate land. If you can sell cabernet for $200 per bottle, you won’t plant Barbera there, which is a shame. They open a 2014 Santa Cruz Mountain Sparkling Grenache. They also make a red wine from this vineyard. Clark explains about champagne, calls it the worst white wine in the world. Since our grapes in California are full of flavor, our sparkling wines will taste better. It’s a 2014 so right now it’s very fresh. Next is a red wine, a 2015 WineSmith St. Laurent. His saint’s day is August 10, which is the day this grape is harvested. It’s early so it’s low in alcohol. The wine is extremely soft. “It’s kind of like a cynical beaujolais,” says Clark. Dan Berger says the flavors are unique to the variety. It’s sort of like Beaujolais but this is more complex with a dry aftertaste. Despite its softness, it is dry. Diamond Ridge is a vineyard in the southeast corner of Clear Lake, next to the lake. The wines capture incredible fruit and the wines age for a long time. He has made wine there for 12 years now. Dan says that Cabernet Franc rules up in those cold areas and can make great wine. Next they taste the Norton. The Norton grape is from Virginia where it was found in the woods. There are 500 wineries making it in the US. It makes a dense, plush wine, “if you can get it right.” It is disease and winter tolerant. But in most places it grows where it can’t get ripe enough, though. Clark Smith’s new book is called Postmodern Winemaking. If you go to his website, the promo code is IKNOWCLARK to get a 20% discount. The first half of the book is highly technical, about wine structure and aeromatic integration. Non-winemakers can skim over it. Starting with chapter 12, it gets easier. He comments on all the current issues in winemaking. It ends in a chapter called Liquid Music, where he says that wine is processed cognitatively the same as music. They taste a Meritage wine, of the five Bordeaux varieties, from an organic vineyard.

Join us for an interesting episode on heirloom beans, their origin and distinct flavors. We open up with my co-host Jean-Charles Boisset telling us of his love for local agricultural products and his respect for Rancho Gordo, the top local source not only for the beans, but the seeds to grow them. This episode is made possible by Oakville Grocery, part of Boisset Collection, a portfolio of wineries and lifestyle destinations with strong historical and family roots. First, as usual, we taste a few wines, inspired by the earthy flavors of beans. Todays wines include the 2016 Secret Indulgence Evoluna Chardonnay, a limited-edition clean and modestly rich, mineral-driven white wine. Next up is the 2016 Raymond Vineyards Napa Valley Reserve Merlot, an earthy, fruity and impossibly smooth red wine from St. Helena vineyards. Talking with Steve Sando, we learn how he hatched the idea for growing and seeking out heirloom beans through his travels to Mexico. He encountered many indigenous farmers growing unusual and uniquely flavorful beans in small quantities.Through trial and error, Sando discovered which varieties would adapt to California and then started planting and growing them. He takes great pride in helping out the small farmers in Mexican states like Guerrero by regularly visiting and buying products from them. Rancho Gordo now grows close to a half-million pounds of beans per year and has an online monthly bean club, for fans who want to receive a regular supply. The package might include little-known varieties such as Yellow Indian Woman, Rebosero or Vaquero. It’s a priority of Sando’s to sell all beans within one year of harvest, making them not only fresh but soft enough to cook without soaking overnight. Thanks for listening, and stay tuned for more shows in the coming weeks. Please share across your social media channels and subscribe to get each new episode directly to your podcast feed. You can find Napa Sonoma magazine on newsstands, subscribe here, or read the digital edition online.  

Today, my co-host Jean-Charles Boisset and I sit down to discuss everyone’s favorite treat: chocolate. We talk about the nuances and complexities in chocolate that strike a chord with winemakers. Today we taste the 2015 JCB Passion red Bordeaux blend, bringing cabernet sauvignon, cabernet franc, petit verdot and merlot together, showcasing the best Napa has to offer. Its persistence and length make a fun pairing for the chocolate. We also sip on the lovely Buena Vista Angelica, a sweet but not cloying dessert wine made of the historic Mission grape, a thick-skinned grape with deep tannins and rich flavors of dried fruit, hazelnut and vanilla creme. This episode is made possible by Oakville Grocery, part of Boisset Collection, a portfolio of wineries and lifestyle destinations with strong historical and family roots. Chocolate has long been a passion for confectioner and artist Patricia Doyle of Farm Chocolates, her line of handcrafted organic chocolates. Doyle makes a variety of sweets, from bars to caramels, and works through each step from scratch and by hand, rather than using more conventional machines for tempering, cutting and dipping the candies. Her top pick for base chocolate is a 70% cacao from Columbia, with a nice balance and hints of coffee. Doyle date-stamps her sweets since they don’t contain any preservatives. She even molds the chocolates by hand so each piece is slightly different in shape, a detail she admires. Aside from crafting the luxury goodies, Doyle also designs her own labels. Sustainability is a top priority for Doyle, and to that end, she minimizes waste, uses compostable packaging and seeks out efficient delivery methods. The chocolates speak for themselves in flavor and texture. Thanks for listening, and stay tuned for more shows in the coming weeks. Please share across your social media channels and subscribe to get each new episode directly to your podcast feed. You can find Napa Sonoma magazine on newsstands, subscribe here, or read the digital edition online.

We stay hyper-local in this episode and talk with a few acclaimed guests from the Oakville area. My co-host Jean-Charles and I talk about the unique and highly sought-after grape-growing region then we taste a single Oakville wine in this episode: the 2015 Raymond Vineyards Oakville District Collection Cabernet Sauvignon. The lush and rich, dark red wine is soul-satisfying and pairs great with grilled filet mignon. This episode is made possible by Oakville Grocery, part of Boisset Collection, a portfolio of wineries and lifestyle destinations with strong historical and family roots. We move into a conversation with Rudd Estate Vintner Samantha Rudd, daughter of the late Leslie Rudd. By the age of eight, Rudd knew confidently that she would devote her life to wine, after her family bought the iconic estate in Oakville and relocated from Wichita by way of Aspen. Their empire included not only the winery and Press restaurant, but also the Oakville Grocery, which she sold to Jean-Charles and Boisset Collection. Rudd adores being a landowner and tending to the estate sustainably for future generations to enjoy. Rudd crafts a lovely fresh white wine with fruit from Mount Veeder, and her red wines are all made with grapes grown on her organic and biodynamic estate. In total, she produces 4,000 cases, with the Rudd Estate Bordeaux blend the most representative of the Rudd Estate’s iron-rich soil and rocks. Hear more about several of their other labels: Samantha’s Cabernet (launched in 2008) and a second label, Crossroads, re-launched in 2019. Next, we sit down with Joyce Stavert, Executive Director of the Oakville Winegrowers. Stavert shares with us the distinctions in soil, location and orientation that make the coveted Oakville AVA so unique. Her rich expertise comes in part from work at two acclaimed Oakville Vineyards: Robert Mondavi and Far Niente. Stayed tuned to hear more on the special wine project launched by the winegrowers association in 2005: a collaborative, limited production called the Oakville Cuvée, a blend of wine from a group of local Oakville winemakers who each contribute five gallons for the blend. Thanks for listening, and stay tuned for more shows in the coming weeks. Please share across your social media channels and subscribe to get each new episode directly to your podcast feed. You can find Napa Sonoma magazine on newsstands, subscribe here, or read the digital edition online.

  This episode kicks off with a chat about Michael Pollan’s Omnivore's Dilemma and the association with our upcoming guest, Angelo Garro of Omnivore products. We talk about salt as a critical ingredient in cooking and diet, one which often enhances a dish. The wines we taste today include the 2016 1881 Napa Cabernet Sauvignon, with a label displaying the map of Napa’s wine regions. The rich red wine bursts with depth, spice and energy. We also taste the JCB No 3 Pinot Noir, a blend of grapes from Burgundy and Sonoma that my co-host Jean-Charles Boisset says represents the best marriage of France and America, his homeland and his adopted country. This episode is made possible by Oakville Grocery, part of Boisset Collection, a portfolio of wineries and lifestyle destinations with strong historical and family roots. Born in Sicily to a family of cooks, Angelo Garro grew up around good food from a young age. While he’s a blacksmith by trade, he missed his family’s home cooking as he traveled the world. He launched his Omnivore line of salts, herb blends and sauce to reproduce those familiar flavors. His flavor boosters caught the attention of Alice Waters, who used his mixes, and author Michael Pollan, who accompanied him during foraging expositions, documenting the experience in the third chapter of The Omnivore’s Dilemma. Foraging was natural to Garro, as it was a skill he learned from his grandmother. Eventually, he launched a Kickstarter campaign, with German film director and friend Werner Herzog as narrator of his pitch video, and raised over $100,000 to launch the business in 2015. The Omnivore line also features hot sauces and a Sicilian savory flavor concentrate, all made with fresh local organic ingredients. Thanks for listening, and stay tuned for more shows in the coming weeks. Please share across your social media channels and subscribe to get each new episode directly to your podcast feed. You can find Napa Sonoma magazine on newsstands, subscribe here, or read the digital edition online.

Recognizing that wine isn’t the only beverage crafted in California’s wine country, my co-host Jean-Charles Boisset and I talk about the long history of apple orchards in America, and in particular, in Sonoma County—with the heart of the industry in Sebastopol. We also discuss how his family has a history of hop growing, something Jean-Charles still continues to do with hop trellises at his properties. Today, rather than tasting wine, we sample Boisset’s La Captive Cider, produced in Sonoma. We then taste the Oakville Grocery 1881 Pilsner, made with Boisset estate hops, by one of the guests on this episode Nile Zacherle. This episode is made possible by Oakville Grocery, part of Boisset Collection, a portfolio of wineries and lifestyle destinations with strong historical and family roots. Ethic Cider’s Ned Lawton joins us for our first interview covering his hand-crafted hard ciders from Sebastopol. With a commitment to sustainability, Lawton produces small batches of ciders from his certified organic orchards just north of Sebastopol. Using apples indigenous to the region, Lawton’s ciders range from the Golden Rule, Ethic’s signature orchard blend to the Gravitude, made from heritage varieties, to the limited-release pink-colored Scarlett, infused with blackberries and raspberries. Next up is craft beer, or to be more specific, origin beers with Nile Zacherle, founder and brewmaster of the Mad Fritz craft beer from St. Helena. A winemaker at David Arthur, Zacherle imparts elements of winemaking into his beer making, sourcing the barley, water and even hops from specific local purveyors and areas. Mad Fritz bottle labels alone are works of art, replicating detailed drawings from Aesop’s Fables. With 40 different beers rotating in production at a given time, Zacherle continues to add to his count, creating modern takes on several well known beer styles such as pilsner, imperial rice stout, IPA and saison. Currently, Zacherle is producing a private label pilsner lager for Oakville Grocery. Thanks for listening, and stay tuned for more shows in the coming weeks. Please share across your social media channels and subscribe to get each new episode directly in your podcast feed. You can find Napa Sonoma magazine on newsstands, subscribe here, or read the digital edition online.

In this episode, my co-host Jean-Charles Boisset and I discuss the meaning of good food and how the Good Food Foundation has createdt a certification process to reward foods that not only taste delicious, but respect the environment. As with each episode, we also taste two wines; this week’s selection includes the JCB Infinity NV Sparkling Crémant de Bourgogne and 2015 Raymond Vineyards 1½ Acres Bordeaux blend. This episode is made possible by Oakville Grocery, part of Boisset Collection, a portfolio of wineries and lifestyle destinations with strong historical and family roots. Good Food Awards Merchants and Communications Manager Katherine Harris helps dispel any misunderstandings about the definition of good food. We learn of the strict criteria the foundation uses to judge and rank the more than 2,000 products submitted to their Good Food Foundation. The foundation currently has 13 food categories and over 300 judges from an array of food specialty areas, to award deserving products with the coveted Good Food Award, which appears on the product label. Founder Sarah Weiner spent time working with Alice Waters and the Slow Food movement in Europe before launching these awards a few years ago. Harris tells us that there are dozens of products at Oakville Grocery sporting their recognizable award, including crackers, chocolates, and caramels. Thanks for listening, and stay tuned for more shows in the coming weeks. Please share across your social media channels and subscribe to get each new episode directly in your podcast feed. You can find Napa Sonoma magazine on newsstands, subscribe here, or read the digital edition online.  

This fun episode covers the two basic food groups in wine country; cheese and charcuterie! Co-host Jean-Charles Boisset and I talk about the wonderful craft cheeses and meats made fresh in the area. The wines we taste today include the 2016 DeLoach Vineyards Estate Chardonnay and 2015 DeLoach Vineyards Estate Pinot Noir, both from Boisset’s certified organic and Biodynamic Russian River Estate, which pair perfectly with our cheese and meat selections. This episode is made possible by Oakville Grocery, part of Boisset Collection, a portfolio of wineries and lifestyle destinations with strong historical and family roots. To shed light on the cheeses of Sky Hill Napa Farms, we talk with Will McCosker, whose family founded the goat cheese farm when he was a child. McCosker reminisces about their first pet goat, Oscar McCosker, and how the farm got its start. He talks about the varieties of goat cheeses Sky Hill produces, from fresh to flavored chèvre, and goat feta cheese. The milk for all varieties comes from their goat herd, which has grown to over 500 animals. We hear from Assistant Cheesemaker Patrick McKeon, who takes us through the cheesemaking process. McKeon talks about farmstead cheese, a term that refers to the milk used in production originating from a single farm and herd—parallel to estate wine that originates from a single vineyard property. Moving from cheese to meat, we sit down with Pete Seghesio of Journeyman Meat Co. in Healdsburg to learn more about his hand-crafted and cured meats. After extensive travels in Italy, Seghesio designed his  meat market to replicate some of the most striking shops near Rome. Borrowing European techniques, he ferments his meats at low temperatures, each in individual fermentation rooms, allowing more flavor development. He also ages the meats twice as long as typical American meats. Seghesio recently entered into a joint project with Oakville Grocery to craft heritage salumi using Boisset’s finest wines from esteemed vineyards like DeLoach and Buena Vista Winery. Thanks for listening, and stay tuned for more shows in the coming weeks. Please share across your social media channels and subscribe to get each new episode directly in your podcast feed. You can find Napa Sonoma magazine on newsstands, subscribe here, or read the digital edition online.

Get an inside peek at this historic Victorian located next door to Oakville Grocery. Co-host Jean-Charles Boisset shares his love of history, stemming back to his childhood in Burgundy, and reflects on the inspiration for the museum and the 1881 Napa wines. Wines we taste today are the 1881 Blanc de Blanc sparkling wine, made of 100 percent chardonnay grapes along with the 2016 1881 Oakville Cabernet Sauvignon. This episode is made possible by Oakville Grocery, part of Boisset Collection, a portfolio of wineries and lifestyle destinations with strong historical and family roots. We talk with Ali Madrid, tasting room manager at 1881 and learn more about the setting, its bountiful collectibles and  the 16 American Viticultural Areas (AVAs) in Napa. Madrid shares a few of the tasting experiences available in the salon, and then introduces us to the gorgeous outdoor patio. Next, we sit down with 1881 Winemaker Thane Knutson. We hear about how he started at Raymond Vineyards a decade ago and brings his winemaking insights to the newest line of 1881 Napa wines.  From the sparkling wine and rosé, to the chardonnay and red blends, Knutson describes the winemaking techniques. We learn more about the AVA collection, bringing visitors an opportunity to taste side-by-side across the various regions in Napa Valley. Thanks for listening, and stay tuned for more shows in the coming weeks. Please share across your social media channels and subscribe to get each new episode directly in your podcast feed. You can find Napa Sonoma magazine on newsstands, subscribe here, or read the digital edition online.

In this episode on the unexpected, Jean-Charles Boisset and I enjoy talking about the finer items in the store, including caviar and a selection of highly coveted wines by the glass or taste, that visitors may be surprised to discover in the same location as sandwiches and potato chips. The wines we taste today include JCB No 21 Brut Cremant de Bourgogne, bubbles that work beautifully with caviar, along with the 2015 Secret Indulgence Tarot Cabernet Sauvignon—showing that even red wine works with the tiny eggs. This episode is made possible by Oakville Grocery, part of Boisset Collection, a portfolio of wineries and shops with strong historical and family roots. Today we interview Oakville Grocery Wine Director Ed Maass, who shares insights into the mission of the Oakville Grocery’s new wine program in Napa. A nitrogen gas wine-preservation system allows guests to sample a dozen wines by the glass, including a selection from small producers that you otherwise might not have an opportunity to taste. But the unexpected element is the small selection of wines that are super high-end and extremely difficult to access. It's a surprise to see Screaming Eagle offered at $120 for a single ounce or $600 for a 5-ounce glass. Another unexpected item at the grocery is Tsar Nicoulai Caviar, one of California’s few caviar producers. We speak with Tsar Nicoulai Vice President Otto Szilagyi and learn about the artisanally crafted white sturgeon roe that is farm-raised in a sustainable environment not far from Sacramento. We talk about the mystery of the eggs, their rating system, and how they are delicately and precisely brined. Thanks for listening, and stay tuned for more shows in the coming weeks. Please share across your social media channels and subscribe to get each new episode directly to your podcast feed. You can find Napa Sonoma magazine on newsstands, subscribe here, or read the digital edition online.

In this episode, Jean-Charles Boisset and I talk about our other favorite beverage besides wine: coffee, and how it plays such an important role in most people’s mornings. But as visitors tour Napa Valley, it's not easy to find a good cup as you drive up and down Highway 29. Oakville Grocery has forged a relationship with a master of coffee selecting and brewing: Derek Bromley of Ohm Coffee Roasters. We taste the 2017 JCB No 33 Chardonnay as well as the 2016 Buena Vista Winery Chateau Buena Vista Cabernet Sauvignon. This episode is made possible by Oakville Grocery, part of Boisset Collection, a portfolio of wineries and lifestyle destinations with strong historical and family roots. Our interview today is with Derek Bromley, the founder of Ohm Coffee Roasters. Bromley's background as a sommelier informs his astute sense of smell and taste, which he now focuses toward coffee. Derek had his first cup of coffee (milked down and sugared up) when he was only five years old, and ever since he’s had an intense passion for the libation. He chats with us about the thousands of small, family coffee growers and how the quality of the bean dictates the style of roasting. We learn about the new hipster roasters that launched the light-roast movement as a backlash to the heavy-handed roasting of the big-name coffee moguls. His roasts fall right in between, bringing out subtle citrus flavors yet roasted enough to bring out bold flavors. Thanks for listening, and stay tuned for more shows in the coming weeks. Please share across your social media channels and subscribe to get each new episode directly to your podcast feed. You can find Napa Sonoma magazine on newsstands, subscribe here, or read the digital edition online.

In this episode, I sit down with my co-host Jean-Charles Boisset to introduce this segment on the future of food. Boisset's passion for supporting local purveyors and farmers is at the heart of his philosophy on food. We also sip on the refreshing 2015 JCB No 76 Chardonnay, a rich and full-bodied white wine with subtle hints of oak and a light freshness. We also taste the 2016 Raymond Vineyards Generations Cabernet Sauvignon, with most of the grapes originating from St. Helena vineyards. This velvety and weighty red wine is simply divine, mouth coating and well-balanced. This episode is made possible by Oakville Grocery, part of Boisset Collection, a portfolio of wineries and lifestyle destinations with strong historical and family roots. Our interviews include Perry Hoffman, chef/partner at Boonville Hotel, and Gibson Thomas, publisher of Edible Marin and Wine Country. Hoffman recently took the helm at his uncle Johnny Schmitt’s 15-room Boonville Hotel restaurant after stints at the highly acclaimed Shed in Healdsburg and Etoile Restaurant. He talks of his background and immersion in the local food culture in Napa Valley with both his grandparents and parents, who were equally influential in his love of the kitchen. As a kid, he cut his teeth working at their Yountville restaurant The French Laundry (they were the original owners). Hoffman appreciates the inclusive nature of the area and strongly supports local food and wine artisans, a philosophy he shares with Oakville Grocery. The future of food revolves around the seasons and the farmers, and he feels deeply responsible for and committed to encouraging and inspiring local farmers to grow amazing produce. Likewise, Edible Marin and Wine Country publisher Gibson Thomas supports local purveyors and has been featuring them for a decade in her publication. Thomas adores the local farmers markets but knows they are mostly seasonal, so she's thrilled to see the year-round commitment to local, organic, Biodynamic and sustainable ingredients and wine at Oakville Grocery. She continues to support the growers and artisans, covering them in her quarterly magazine and making their products part of her personal lifestyle. Thanks for listening, and stay tuned for more shows in the coming weeks. Please share across your social media channels and subscribe to get each new episode directly to your podcast feed. You can find Napa Sonoma magazine on newsstands, subscribe here, or read the digital edition online.

Tune in for the inaugural episode of Napa Sonoma Live, our first-of-its-kind luxury lifestyle podcast covering the best things to see, sip and savor in wine country, hosted by Napa Sonoma magazine's Executive Editor Laura Levy Shatkin and co-hosted by Jean-Charles Boisset, Proprietor of Boisset Collection. Napa Sonoma has been the ultimate guide for visitors and locals alike, full of vibrant stories, photos and tips on the best things to experience in wine country for over a decade. The podcast is brought to you by Oakville Grocery, part of Boisset Collection, a portfolio of wineries, gourmet shops and lifestyle destinations with strong historical and family roots. This first episode, Oakville Grocery Then and Now, details how California’s oldest continually operating grocery store has shaped the food culture both in the past and the present. Guests on the episode are Lin Weber, a Napa Valley historian, and Barry Dinsmore, the general manager of Oakville Grocery. This interview takes you from the grocery's founding in 1881 to today. Thanks for listening, and stay tuned for more shows in the coming weeks. Please share across your social media channels and subscribe to get each new episode directly to your podcast feed. You can find Napa Sonoma magazine on newsstands, subscribe here, or read the digital edition online.

Starting a new bourbon brand is tough, especially when you are in the backyard of the biggest dogs in the industry. However, Kaveh Zamanian saw a hole in the market where he could bring new mash bills and new experiences to bourbon drinkers. As the founder of Rabbit Hole Distillery, he has faced some criticism but is taking it head on in this episode. We talk about the startup hustle, contract distilling, pricing strategies, their 5 year roadmap and more. Show Partners: This episode is brought to you ad free by Rabbit Hole Distillery. Show Notes: San Francisco World Spirits Competition - https://bourbonpursuit.com/2018/04/12/144-judging-san-francisco-world-spirits-competition-anthony-dias-blue/  “Bourbon & Thoroughbred Infused” Lean Management Training Certification Course from April 22-23, 2019. http://solarity.com/lean Pursuit Spirits on ModernThirst.com. https://modernthirst.com/2019/03/22/pursuit-spirits-video-tasting-with-kenny-of-bourbon-pursuit/ The week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Bourbon BBQ potato chips. Let’s start from the beginning. Talk about your introduction to bourbon. When you first met your wife, were you intimidated? What made you want to go down the path of opening a distillery? What did you want to change when you got in the bourbon industry? How did you get the ball rolling? Did everyone think you were crazy? How do you outline expectations to investors? Do you think it is challenging for someone from outside of Kentucky to build a distillery in Kentucky? What was your motivation for building the distillery vs. sourcing? Can you disclose who was contract distilling for you? How did you come up with your recipe? Can you explain the difference between malted grain and a regular grain source? How do you know your mash bill will be good years down the road? Talk about being added to the official Kentucky Bourbon Trail. Do you think you are beyond being a craft distiller now? Do you want to see TTB define the term small batch? What are you all doing differently that would entice visitors to come check our Rabbit Hole? When people see the name Kaveh Zamanian, do you think the general public has an unfair bias? How hard is it to build a brand or story when you had no connection to the industry until recently? Since you have a psychology background, can you give us a breakdown of the bourbon consumer? Who are your early adopters? How do you deal with negative feedback? Talk about your pricing strategy? How old is most of your whiskey? What keeps you from putting the age statement on the bottle? How do your products stand out in a crowded market? Talk about your relationship with Death & Co. Do you think there is any confusion among whiskey geeks about your product being for cocktails vs. sipping neat? What story do you want consumer to know when they see your product? What are your long term goals for the brand? Any intentions of selling it off? Tell us about your roadmap. What is going to be happening with the brand in 5 years? What can visitors expect when they visit Rabbit Hole? What is your connection with cigars? How did you come up with the name Rabbit Hole? 0:00 Just give me a mic check just so I kind of know what your level is. And sure like what you have for breakfast 123 I was at 0:07 eggs and bacon, nice eggs and bacon. What about you you? Are you fasting? Are you still still fasting when for 12 0:15 I go past it so I'll get angry towards the end. 0:30 Welcome back. This is Episode 194 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your host Kenny Coleman and let's go through just a little bit of news. Henry McKenna was the rising and shining star once again at the San Francisco world spirits competition that just wrapped up this past week. If you wanna know more about it, go ahead and check out Fred's blog at Fred minute calm because Fred is a judge there. But if you want to know more about the competition, go check out our past podcast episode 144. It features the features 1:00 chairperson anthony dyess blue that really goes in and talks about what are these metals mean and what you can really expect from it you can get that in our show notes tim middle he was a guest back on episode 88 where he talked about bourbon one on one during our bourbon back to basic series he's partnering up to bring the first ever bourbon and thoroughbred infused lean management training and certification course it's kicking off april 22 and 23rd 2019 1:27 it will be hosted by the celebrity group the kicker is there's only 15 seats available so if business management and lean certifications are sort of your thing go get information and your tickets@celebrity.com slash lean now you may or may not have heard there's a little rumor going around that there are no more knob creek private selections that are going to be happening until 2020 we need a little bit more confirmation of the story but so far from our sources is that if you're on the calendar for a barrel selection and 2019 you're going to 2:00 Okay, however no new reservations are being made. At this time. I'm going to give a shout out and say thank you to bill and Timothy over modern thirst.com for inviting me over to talk about our private label pursuit series. You can hear more about our vision and goals for this label as well as in depth reviews of episodes five through nine on the video over at modern thirst.com or you can find it linked within our show notes. Starting a new bourbon brand is tough, especially when you're in the backyard with the biggest dogs in the industry. However, cabeza Manian saw hold the market, we can bring new mash bills and new experiences to bourbon drinkers as the founder of rabbit hole distilling. He's facing tough criticism, but he's taking it head on in this episode. We talked about the startup hustle contract distilling pricing strategies, their five year roadmap and a lot more. This podcast is also brought to you advertisement free from 3:00 Rabbit Hole distilling. Now we can't forget Fred. So here is this week's above the char. 3:08 I'm Fred Minnick in this is above the char. 3:13 That's the sound of kettle brand potato chips, bourbon barbecue. I saw this on Instagram the other day, and I thought to myself, I have got to get this. Now, I'm not normally a sucker for all these fast food, barbecue sandwiches. And when you see barbecue bourbon on on some kind of random baloney or you've got, you know, whatever. There's all kinds of stuff out there that's putting bourbon on the label. I mean, for God's sakes, there, there's a gene company, aging denim and former bourbon barrels and they're putting bourbon on the pants. So you're seeing it everywhere. But I was really intrigued by these by these potato chips because I love cattle. I mean, this is like my favorite potato chip company. So I had to get a bag 4:00 And I'm going to taste it live here well I guess it's not live but I want to taste it right here we'll see what it tastes like 4:08 first of all this bag is not easy to open 4:11 up right here we got to go with those little tear things there you go 4:17 all right here goes 4:19 now they're not the they're not rich they're like basic you know potato chips like a lays 4:26 smells. Smells like a like a barbecue Pringle. 4:31 I kind of had still really nice 4:37 oh man. 4:41 I could eat the entire bag of these. 4:44 You know, there's just a hint of like the bourbon flavor in there but there's enough that you can tell. That's this is actually bourbon. Like you know they they did they tried very hard to have that flavor and there and what a time a lot of times what I find with these with these 5:00 Fast food companies and these snack companies that try to include bourbon in their product, they kind of get the sweet part but they don't get that little hint of oak and there's a little hint of open there maybe. Maybe the BBQ kind of helped round that out but I definitely recommend this for some tailgating. It's quite fantastic and it's kettle brand potato chips bourbon BBQ. 5:22 Yeah, and I hope all I hope all companies that are trying to include bourbon in their, in their products, they actually try to give some detail to it like in terms of the flavor that make sure that you know, hey, it actually does taste like bourbon. So that's this week's above the char. This is going to be a rare when I'm probably not going to do many more potato chip tastings. But hey, you never know if you see some bourbon potato chips out there. Hit me up on Twitter, Instagram, and I'll be sure to taste them. Until next week. Cheers 5:57 Welcome back to episode of bourbon pursuit the official 6:00 podcast of bourbon Kenny and Ryan here at a downtown location that's relatively new, it's immaculate as well when you start walking through and you start seeing the still and you start walking around you see the all the liquid that flows into the pipes when you start walking when he's touring the facility to so rabbit hole starting to really make a name for themselves here in mobile. Yeah, it's been kind of cool seeing you know, we're locals and we saw the the construction side from kind of beginning to now what it is and like you walk into this place and you take a look around I mean, it's beautiful, like most distillery towards you know, it's an old decrepit building kind of like with own you know, it's got on camera Where is covered on a very timely and you're like, I don't want to walk through here. 6:45 Okay, but you come in here and it's like bright, modern, fresh, like really cool. Place and excited, you know, to dive into rabbit hole because not a lot of people you know, know the story, kind of 7:00 Find out what Kaveh is all out. You know, we're I'm really interested to get that side of it, because we've seen it from the outside. But we want to kind of get an inside look at what's going on here. Because I think they're doing some exciting things and stuff people will get excited that as well. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, as you said that there's always this this uncanny bias that's out there in the bourbon world too. And when people think of a new entrant in the market that everybody immediately as hesitation and I think that's really what we want to try to do today is trying to dispel some of those myths that people might have about the brand about the whiskey about everything that's sort of wrapped up into it. And we're gonna we're going to really dive in because we've we've had an opportunity to try some of these products before. And you know, I love the ride sharing finishes is really good as well. And we're going to dive in not only to that, we're going to dive into the business, we're going to dive into, again, some of those biases. So we're gonna, we're going to touch on every angle here. There's nobody more humble than whiskey fans, you know, they're just really, you know, they're really accepting and real. 8:00 You know, like, come on in. We'd love to have you tell everybody on Reddit and Facebook. Exactly. So, yeah, with that, you know, do your introduction. Yeah. So today we have copies of mania and he's the founder and whiskey maker have a rabbit hole distillery in Louisville, Kentucky. So Kaveh, welcome to the show. Thank you guys. It's a pleasure to be here. Comment. First of all, thank you for getting our memo about wearing gray. 8:23 We're all we're all. We all got that. So I mean, it was funny this morning. We showed up here, I look at Ryan, I'm like, God damn it. Like we're in the same show. We've got we've got t shirts, multiple polos, and all different colors, and then we show up wearing the same thing. It's like two concerts this weekend. And so I went through all my festival teasing. 8:43 But anyway, I appreciate that. That's what happens when you guys do what however many podcasts you? Right, exactly. You're going to have a match every time. It's here we are. I mean, it was funny. You say that. It's Ryan's like my second wife because well, even my wife says, I think it's news to 9:00 Now she's like, I think you talk to him more than he talked to me and I'm like, that's probably true. I go through the collagen. Yeah, that's that's true. It's it's a lot more. So you know, copy I kind of want to start at the beginning with you like kind of talk about your introduction of bourbon sort of, you know, really how you you got this bug and how it bit yeah, sure, sure. I think the the credit goes to my wife, my wife, Heather is from Louisville, Kentucky. We met about 16 years ago. And even though I, you know, I 9:31 was familiar somewhat with bourbon, I really didn't have the depth of knowledge that I did until we started dating. Being a Kentucky girl. She, she really, you know, basically showed me everything there is in terms of her first passion, which was Kentucky and second passion bourbon, started coming down here in Louisville, and really, 9:51 kind of got the bug very early on. I think part of what was really fascinating for me was learning about the history and the tradition of bourbon and Kentucky and 10:00 Particular. I was also really surprised at the time living in Chicago, how few bourbon brands were on the market. Now this is looking back, you know, 1516 years ago, we didn't have the level of excitement do we do now so that was really the early part of it. And you know, 10:15 being kind of academic and a practitioner my old 10:20 career, I started digging in learning anything I could learn about the history of urban and that was really there the early phase of it realizing what a what an exceptional spirit it is, what a beautiful kind of 10:35 part of Americana if you would, did not a whole lot of people know about and I was really struck by the fact that you know, you go to a bar at the time you have scotch center stage and you got American whiskey, if there is even any flying to the side and it was it was quite shocking, actually. What was that first bottle it was like, all right. This is like scotch midway bourbon. Here. I don't know have you actually stopped like oh going because I think I read somewhere. 11:00 you are a scotch drinker so if you if you kind of like switch the flip the script i guess you could say on it you know i i don't drink scotch not even close close to what i used to drink but but i'm experimenting with all kinds of stuff so i'm a big fan of you know all kinds of whiskey be an irish japanese scotch of course and even you get some interesting offerings now out of india as well so you know we got to stay on top of the game as far as palettes flavor profiles and things like that so we're still drinking but by and large i'm a bourbon drinker now and american whiskey so talk to me about the first time you met your wife was was she sitting there drinking bourbon neat and you're like oh this is pretty intimidating because i know like if i go back to my youth and i try to find a girl is drinking need i'm like i don't know if i can handle this one jesus you might be a firecracker she was actually drinking old forester with couple ice cubes and i don't think i've even had old forester back then i think i was i knew about beam makers and which first 12:00 was just kind of out and that was really about it and then old forester was a new kind of intro to me and that was really the beginning of it it was it was a little intimidating but it was also exciting because you know, finding girl that likes whiskey was was awesome it was a really nice kind of back and forth between scotch and bourbon and the end she went out Yeah, well that's that's usually how it works in every marriage. 12:26 So what kind of made you want to go down the path of starting a distillery? I mean, it's it's not an easy decision to say like oh, yeah, like it's one thing to be like, Oh, this is cool bourbon, you know, this is fun. It's one thing to be like I'm gonna take on 12:40 hundred year old plus industry and like think everything I can into it and like, watch out for me. Yeah, you know, it really was a was a consumer approach it first right so I got excited about to learn everything I could I as I said earlier, I was always surprised of how few people now few brands are out. There are few people especially outside of that kind of Kentucky, Tennessee. 13:00 Seat belt know about it. And growing up in California, it was a little bit of deja vu with what I experienced in the early days of Napa and Sonoma. Right. So, Napa Sonoma, you know, came on the scene with the wine industry. And now we know what they what it is. And in those days, that was basically the kind of the association that I had that I thought there's an opportunity here. And then the other piece of it is that I realized there's a lot of monotony in terms of the offerings, right. So at the time, you had four or five distilleries, essentially handful of distilleries making 95% of the products out there, if not more, and realize you got basically the same liquid in a different bottle different package. And that was really the the kind of aha moment that I can probably do something that's unique and stands apart and it's distinct and, and, 13:52 and it's also contributing to what's out there. So when you when you think about that, and you think Well, okay, there's and it's true. It's not 14:00 like 90% maybe it's founded like 90% of the market now is all the same big guys and they've got a lot of the same juice at different groups and different labels but what was it that you really said like okay this is what i want to change like what what was that first idea that you had that said i think this is how i'm going to make my my stake in the game because i'm going to change it doing x y or z what was what was that thought you know it was more of a process then then it kind of an event so it was a series of aha moments it started with with that recognition did you got a lot of monotony i think again having that reference to beer and wine i felt that here's an opportunity where that i can do something different and digging into the history realized back in the day pre prohibition in particular you had well over 200 300 14:47 distilleries here in kentucky and then just as many different types of recipes of bourbon so that variety really kind of went away through consolidation post prohibition so that was the beginning of saying okay now let's let's go 15:00 start playing around with different stuff. And I took a page from the craft beer guys, honestly, I think the fact that they're started experimenting with different malts and hops and grains and things of that nature was really the beginning of saying, you know, I can probably do something that's, that's a little different. Now, the beginning of it was pretty humble. We were just planning on doing a, you know, pot, still a small operation that grew into what it is now, but that's generally the way it started. Here's the first call you make when you're like, All right, I'm gonna start a distillery. Who do you reach out to and you're like, all right, helped me get down this path, like where did Where do you get that ball rolling? You know, that's one of the advantages of being unlovable. So, the folks that are really, really friendly in the industry. So one of the first folks that I talked to is a gentleman named Larry ever saw. Larry was the master distiller Pernod Ricard for years he built the wild turkey distillery. He was an MVP and easy of the same vintage and same class with Jim Rutledge and Dave Sherrick. So after I met Larry got an intro 16:00 to Dave and Jim. And, 16:03 and there's also another gentleman named Richard Wolffe, who was very early on a consultant. And these folks really embraced me took me under their wings. And, you know, we would just go around and talk about bourbon talk about whiskey. And their generosity really was the door that opened up taking me in the direction of Okay, now, not only just started reading some books, but maybe take some classes and go to different distilleries and, and learn what's the kind of inner part of this operation basically. Wait, yeah. So, you know, talking is one thing, but I think the other thing is, you know, Ryan, you know, Ryan's a big guy. Big Guy. big guy. 16:38 He's a big business guy. 16:41 But he's, you know, he loves business. You have to listen as I love business podcast. And so I guess the the other thing is like when you're starting to go down this path, how do you get that ball rolling? I mean, is it was it was it finding investors was it sourcing liquid like for you like, what did that look like? Yeah, yeah. So the 17:00 For me, the the first step was to find a distillery that would make my recipes for me because after that initial period of experimentation with, you know, with with these guys learning about it and playing around with different recipes. The question was, which route do I want to go? Do I want to go with the traditional route where a lot of new brands do which is sourcing liquid? Or am I able to find a distillery, they would essentially make my recipes for me, which is the contract distillation route. And this is now you know, seven years ago, when I incorporated the company, it was really hard to find a distillery they would contract is still. 17:33 So I was pretty bullish and determined that I don't want to source because it kind of went against what I just said earlier as far as having the same liquid. And after a few years of just scouring the state, I was fortunate enough to find it as somebody that would make those recipes for me. So that was really the first step. The initial seed money from a business standpoint was all personal. And once I got the contract in place, got a few family members involved in 18:00 Just very typical of most startups, you got family and friends that are stupid enough to put their money in front 18:06 of family, friends and fools. That's right. That's right. Ya know, and I mean, I owe a huge debt of gratitude to those guys who believed with believed in me and, and then after that, then we started really kind of getting serious about the scope and the scale of it, and started to having to go out there and raise money for the larger project. One question I always have for founders and entrepreneurs, like, I'm sure it's probably just like in any business, but talk about dealing with it where people discouraging you to do this or telling you like, this is crazy, like dealing with the nose like, because when you start a business, a lot of people tell you, you're crazy. And there's a lot of negativity and like, you can't do that, you know, there's a lot of small amount of thinking, how, 18:45 how was that? How did you approach that and how did you push past that to make this reality? Everybody starting with my wife, and everybody I talked to that I'm out of my mind, just candidly, i and i think you know, when you look at it from their vantage point 19:00 Makes a lot of sense, you know, I'm not from the industry side l am I going to go out there and make something work and on top of it, raise the money to do it. But I think the first person I had to really kind of gain her favor and approval was was my spouse without your family, you're not able to get something like this off the ground. Once she was behind my, in support supporting me, the next step was to go out there and start talking about what the vision is, and what the plan is more and more importantly, I think, probably what helped me get over the hump was these gentlemen that I mentioned as part of my kind of consulting crew, if you would, and being able to get that initial contract distillation to the allowed us to basically go out and say, Look, guys, this is for real. We're not just kind of dreaming here. And we got a recipe that's unique and we want to build on that. How do you 19:50 outline expectations to investors because it seems like if you have investors and board they're always going to put their nose in and be like, we need this x return. When you buy 20:00 This day, we need this. This is the way like how do you outline those expectations and then follow through with them? You know, you know, it's a challenge, I think you can lay it out as beautifully as possible. But it just as you pointed out reality and what your investors want are two different things. And the landscape changes, especially, especially in the bourbon business. I think part of it is also for me, it was luck, right? The timing is right. I started in 2012. That's when we incorporated rabbit hole. And it was a time when still there was a lot of ground to cover. And there's a lot of folks excited about what we're doing. And they felt that especially a lot of the Kentucky, folks that joined our group felt that they want to be a part of it. There's something meaningful here and then we got the ball rolling. But even in the last 567 years, the landscapes changed dramatically, right. I mean, you guys know, we have over 3000 distilleries now in the US. So there's a lot of new brands coming on to competitions, affecting everything. 21:00 As a result, that beautiful Performa that you put together seven years ago is not the same today, do you think it's easier for someone to outside the state of Kentucky to kind of build a distillery and kind of like, they always talk about Own your yard, you know, Own your your bag turf. And so talk about, like, How difficult is coming into somewhere like global or Kentucky where this is the birthplace or you know, talk about that, for us as an advantage, right? I think I wouldn't build a distillery anywhere else personally. And the reason being because 21:33 I want to be with the big, big guys. And I want to be essentially in the major league. So for us, Louisville, and Kentucky represents that. With that said, You know, I think there's a lot of great craft distilleries that have popped up around the country. And they're doing amazing things. I think for me, the distinction is are you able to make your own liquid and do it in the quality and consistency that you want? And really stand on your own as an authentic brand. The problem that I 22:00 And this is one of the issues that that I see is one of the, I guess, things that we got to watch out for is that a lot of these distilleries are relying on source products, usually from Kentucky, Indiana, or Tennessee. And once they go online with their own liquid, without that expertise that move on Kentucky has to offer as well as the seasonality and all the other things. It's a question mark how good that liquid is going to be? I mean, was that one of the big reasons why you said I'm going to go and build a distillery because maybe if you knew that you're going to go down a sourcing path like that was that's going to run out at some point and the products and the change I mean, I'm not going to name any names but everybody out there that's very affluent, the bourbon community they know who are you know, they had really good source MTP whiskey, they ran out and now they're struggling. Yeah. So is that one of the motivating factor behind doing it or is it just because like, just wanted to I wanted to own my own product. It's a combination of two I wanted to own my own product, but at the same time, I felt 23:00 that consumers are getting wise right we're not we're only a google away from the reality of who's behind the brand and what's in the bottle and i think if you are trying to build a sustainable brand you have to be true you have to be authentic because the iq level of consumers are a lot higher than it was 10 1520 years ago and it's just the reality of it so for me the vision was make sure you're authentic you're not bullshitting and you really design and build a place that people can come in and see it soup to nuts without any smoke and mirrors and that is going to be the model for sustainable brand you know speaking of the the google away and i don't know if there's an nda in place or anything like that but can you disclose the source of where you work contract distilling you know personally i have no problems disclosing that the distillery that we partnered up with they have an issue with it okay i don't think it takes a whole lot to figure out where we actually distribute our products 24:00 Industry though, like, Why are there only it seems like a distillery would want to know that, hey, my products in that bottle and I help them start just to bring more attention back to them. What Why do you think that is in this into? You know, it's a good question. I think that's because kind of the way it's been historically from me and we've had this discussion with those guys before. I'm in that camp. I'm in the camp that you just mentioned, I would be super proud of making that liquid because it's exceptional liquid. And I would want to shout it off top of the roof top, but for some reason, I think some folks are not it's still thinking about it in the way the old guards did. And they want to be very protective of that information because back in the day, there was a lot of horse trading right yeah. And you know, 24:40 what we're doing with rabbit hole is trying to in some ways pierce through that old way of approaching it. There's anything about bourbon, you know, they really embrace change. 24:51 That's right up their alley. First thing you think of, yeah, we're not going to change anything. It's been 100 years nothing's gone wrong. Don't broke 25:00 don't fix it. 25:02 And so you know, I kind of want to talk about the the juice and liquid itself, right? Because I think there's there's some people that might not know it's like kind of talk about first like how you came up with with your Nashville and your grain recipe and then you know what you're doing today with either the sourcing of the grains and everything that goes into the product itself. Sure, sure. Being a scotch guy initially, I've always been fascinated by with multi grains. Like I said, a big fan of craft beer guys. So started looking at different types of grain bills and mash bills and different types of Malta grains determine that, you know, multi grains are a little bit more expensive, but at the end of the day, they're really like a newbie new person. What's the difference between a multi grain and like a regular green scores? Yeah, so basically, multi process is a process where you, essentially it's depending on who's doing them all things, slightly different variation, but essentially you trick the grain to start butting essentially, but then you stop that 26:00 growth process. And what it does, it allows a lot more of that enzymatic reaction to do you want in the cooking process and the fermentation process, but also brings out some really interesting flavors. That's number one. The other thing is that and I'm not an expert in this by any means, but there's at least a couple of groups here in the country that are doing some phenomenal, interesting experimentation with different types of marketing processes where what they do is they're bringing forward different types of flavors with different types of Malta grains. So as an example with our for grain bourbon, which was the bourbon that we currently have on the market, it's 70% corn 10% malted weed Sam percent malted barley, and 10% honey malted barley, now honey malted barley is essentially barley, but again through this proprietary process that these guys use brings out some little bit more sweeter honey like notes if you would, and they have a whole range of other type of Malta grains like chocolate malt and so on and so forth, that we started experimenting with and for me 27:00 that first bourbon we have for recipes of bourbon right now by the way but the one that's currently on the market was really a nod to my affinity or lot for scotch because it's 20% malted barley and thought that here's a personal touch on it but also at the end i wanted to have a little bit more of an approachable bourbon softer that allows some new whiskey consumers to come to the full i'm glad you said the honey thing because i'm a fan of honey nut cheerios like regular cheers can just like get out when the burma goes through the cone kind of 27:34 gets a little drip off of it 27:36 one question i had so when you're picking your magic pill on like like deciding these are the flavors i want how do you 27:44 i guess how do you determine like because you're tasting at new make and like how do you know that those are going to translate years down the road do you have someone helping you to determine that are like are you just like this is honestly that's the risk yeah that's the risk you don't know what the heck's 28:00 going to happen three, four or five years from now. And with that recipe, I remember sitting in front of Larry, and we were just chatting about what I want to do. And he said, Well, you know, you've had a couple of weeks thinking about this, what kind of Nashville Do you want to, you know, run first, and I shared with him this idea, and he's just pause, which was probably the most frightening 30 seconds of my life, because I thought that, you know, this guy's gonna say this is this is crap. But he came back said, Look, this is this is interesting. Let's give it a shot. And that was the first run. But honestly, the most scary thing about this proposition was that because we laid down a lot of barrels to three different recipes, we didn't know how it's going to come out. And that's the risk and that's the gamble. And that's partly the stupidity because it's easier to go out there and sorts what you know, rather than not knowing how it's going to turn out a few years down the road. Sure. And the other thing is, you have also been recently added to the the official Kentucky bourbon trail so kind of talk about what that means to 29:00 To you into the rabbit hole family look it is a huge I go there I know 29:06 Katie a loves their money that's very true we all know that it's a huge feather in our cap first and foremost we got an app we got now a seat at the at the board, which means that we are able to contribute and have a conversation with the big players about what's happening in our state what's happening in our signature industry and more importantly have have a say in the matter right, which is fantastic for a newcomer to join his stellar team with the with the tradition and heritage is around the table is just surreal. And it has a huge impact for our team here at the distillery because now we're planning I think we're going to be hitting somewhere between 20,000 to 22,000 people coming through our distillery this year. That's huge, not just on the revenue side of it, but more importantly, the opportunity to showcase what we're doing and hopefully get some advocates in the process is really exciting. Yeah, I mean, you you are going to I mean it's a chance 30:00 Right. I mean, I don't know, do you? Do you like to be molded into a quote unquote craft distiller? Do you think that you're, you're beyond that now, you know, I love the word craft when it applies to attention to detail. I think whatever you're building as long as you're attending to those finer points, that to me is craft With that said, you know, we're in a category now we're producing basically 1.2 million proof gallons, that's approximately 20,000 barrels, right. So, officially speaking, we're not in that kind of a smaller distillery bucket anymore. But our every bottle is a small batch, right? So we basically harvest about 13 to 15 barrels at a time. And that's, you know, truly is small batch release. Almost every bottling that we do is small batch. So I like to think that from that standpoint, our attention to detail is still part of that craft movement. But we have aspirations to be PVA. We 31:00 We want to be a national player. We want to be the next big spirit company out of Louisville, Kentucky. Do you want to see TTP actually define the word small batch because even today, uh, Jim Beam light labels can technically be as small as like, you know, what would you want to see that sort of change happen? You know, I think it's an interesting point I would probably be for that would like to see TTP differentiate better bourbon versus finished bourbon or finished whiskies? I think that the camps out there are probably divided a little bit. I think that we can probably take a page from our colleagues across the pond, you know, the Europeans have been really dog it about provenance and making sure the integrity of whatever spirit it is intact. Now we are at a point where there's a lot of finished whiskeys are finished Bourbons out there. And to me once you put something in a secondary barrel that's not new American oak, it's no longer bourbon. Now, there's nothing wrong with it because we have a PEX finished bourbon did we're very proud 32:00 I'm very excited about but I think in order for bourbon to remain bourbon TTP does have to get to a point where there's a greater clarity between what is bourbon and what is finished. But otherwise, I think consumers will get confused because, you know, ultimately finished bourbon ends up being in this catch all category of distilled spirits specialty, where you can add flavoring you can do all kinds of stuff to it, that is not indicated on the label and the consumers don't know about it. So you're not adding any more honey to them. But after it's done, okay, we don't get anything, my friend, nothing, nothing's added. That's the whole point. Because, you know, 32:38 we take a lot of pride in what we're doing and making sure everything is essentially as is just simply distilling the grains putting in the barrel and that's it. No added flavoring, no added coloring, none of those gimmicky stuff. And so, you know, this is an awesome facility. I think I read somewhere like 15 million that was invested to build this is something like that correct? Yeah. Actually, if 33:00 you for the building 15 million if you had the equipment and everything soup to nuts $18 million keeps calling a good number 33:09 yeah there's there's a ceiling tile that has been replaced so you know it's just maintenance but you know the other thing is is if you're trying to make this you know full blown distillery and event destination what what are you trying to do different that would entice people to come and visit rabbit hole when they are coming to the kentucky bourbon trail yeah well aside from an attractive building from the outside what we're trying to create as an immersive experience i want folks to come in here first and foremost to get excited about manufacturing and we talk a lot about american manufacturing but manufacturing is not made sexy and why i wanted to make manufacturing sexy so when you come in here the design elements are there to get people excited about what we're doing here and what's happening in kentucky as far as the process of making great whiskey and then second of all i want them to have a fully immersive experience so when you go 34:00 When you are literally raised off the manufacturing floor, you have a full sensory experience, smells, sights, sounds, everything. So at the end of it, once you've tasted the products, you've experienced it you walk away with your head up high. Proud of not just Louisville, not just Kentucky, but really bourbon and American whiskey. I want bourbon to be front and center in every bar in America. I do not want it to see flanked to the side of scotch ever anywhere. Sure. So there's another maybe it's a tough question that's kind of really want to get with this. And this kind of goes you know about you and when people might see the name, you know, Cabazon mania, do you think people in the general public have an unfair bias? Because you're not a you're not john smith? You know, you're i remember correctly Iranian descent. Yep. So kind of like to just kind of like touch on that for us a little bit. Sure. Sure. Yeah, I think personally, I've never experienced any bias or prejudice with you. 35:00 is really, you know, it's a testament to again, the folks in Kentucky and in Louisville. Beyond that, honestly, if there's any reactions again, I'm not familiar with it. With that said, I think that in some ways ironically, it's actually in line with the history of bourbon and American whiskey. 35:19 The entire American whiskey is predicated on story of outsiders and the people that are essentially unsung heroes, right? So if you think about Mary Dowling, as an example, Mary Dowling was the first woman who owned a Kentucky bourbon distillery, nobody really talks about Mary nobody knows about or Bernie Brown who was an African American woman and the frontier in Missouri, not only making whiskey was selling whiskey, right? So we're there is another gentleman, jokey, jokey, Tucker, meaning this is a Japanese American, who ended up in Chicago and was on the forefront of all the stuff that we're doing in terms of science of distillation, with the impact of yeast on enzymes, and so on, and 36:00 so forth these are all people that you know have been part and parcel of the industry but nobody knows about so for me it's actually an opportunity to come to the fold and say look you know i'm proud of my heritage i am proud of being an american and more importantly i want to be a part of this movement that just like johnny appleseed we're going out there spreading the gospel and telling people about what an american spirit really is about yeah do you find it difficult because you don't have that connection to whiskey except recently you know through your wife like most people starting up in the distiller they have like some family lineage or something where there's there's one beam and every way like there's the beat the beat around here is he got it 36:43 yeah i mean you know look in kentucky you can't you can't be from kentucky and not have some kind of a connection to whiskey making right everybody traces their ancestry in one form or another two to whiskey and i think from that standpoint you know do i have a disadvantage 37:00 I don't know if it's a disadvantage because I think in a lot of ways, sometimes in any industry coming from an outside perspective, it is an advantage on its own right. So for me as an example, we decided to build it an urban distillery, we decided to build a distillery and design a package, it's a little bit different, because we wanted to bring a different perspective to the fold With that said, you know, we are building on the shoulders of giants here, the tradition of Kentucky is bar none. And we're really proud that we've been embraced to to be part of this, this group. So with that said, you know, 37:35 it's it's something that I think it's part and parcel of who we are, and I hope people get to know us and, and judges for who we are rather than what their perception is. Sure. So go ahead, right. Well, I was gonna say so you have a psychological background, right? Yeah. So can you talk about our give us a breakdown of your study of the bourbon consumer and the outlaw like what is that 38:00 the mindset of a barber consumer to, you know, analysis of you hear about No, no, I'm not doing it selfish. 38:07 Just for our fans out there? Well, let's see. I don't know about the bourbon consumer so much, as much as I think it's about what we're doing and what we're trying to create here. I think this goes back to maybe an earlier point you guys made, I think what is a differentiator for us is that I've been mindful of creating a space where we can create new things. But I think as a psychologist, I learned for years, most of the people again came to my office for one reason or another, we're stuck. You know, as human beings we need to create, it's all about loving work, loving your family, friends, or finding something you're passionate about. And if you don't have that, you fall ill I mean, it's a real traditional classic psychology kind of theory where we don't produce something do something you love. you're prone to falling, falling sick. So my passion 39:00 has been to do something that's new and original. And I've been fortunate enough to have the expertise to create a space where other young, vibrant excited people didn't want to be part of this if join me so we got a really different approach even to to make an whiskey we do not have a master distiller as an example. We approach it as a collective effort. This is really a lesson I learned from people like Larry and Dave and Jim. Well for master distiller so Master, it will tell you that's the cockamamie title, right. I mean, Jim would basically say, look, I never put a liquid in a bottle without my entire team having a consensus before it goes on. And I would never even consider not acknowledging the guy did make the grain selection to other folks have been part of the process to maturation. And that to me felt like it's it's something that I want to embrace because master distiller and a lot of ways is a is a term that designates an individual hero, and we want to highlight all the heroes in this process, obviously 40:00 It starts with my story. But what's happened? We have over 200 years of industry experience on our distillation team. These are guys that are all contributing, right and they all deserve kudos. So you're talking about disruption or people like in the new in any business you have the first it's kind of like a line or like a they call it the long tail like you had the first people that I'd say the bell curve, you know, you have your early adopters, early. 40:27 Exactly. Any of the people that wait to see okay, what's going on? So who are your first early adopters who they've been for rabbit hole, kind of the two people. My Chief Marketing Officer Michael immortality and Kaveh Talley or head of operations. There are a number one into hires for us. Michael was in Toronto he was at that time just finishing up 40:52 stinted Master Chef Canada, a couple of restaurants there and an entrepreneur and heart himself and 41:00 Call them up, came out here told me I'm bacha crazy for wanting to do this. And a week later he moved out. 41:08 Cameron tally Cameron was a master's in chemical engineering from U of l was at wild turkey. He actually was on the same team with Larry, you built the turkey distillery and I went to brown Forman for a couple of years. He felt that he wanted to spread his wings and do something different. So when we started designing, developing the distillery joined us to those guys were number one and two, they didn't really took a chance on me. And without them, we wouldn't be here for sure. Lot. Yeah, that's awesome. I was more wanting to know who had been those early adopters, Mars customers like know, is rabbit hole who's been embraced by Who are you like going after as those early disruptors? You know? Yeah, as far as consumers are concerned, I think that it's been a combination of, you know, like folks like, on the other side of the bar, right. Dave Kaplan and Alex de from death and co were folks that we talked two years ago. 42:00 Aside from the distillation guys, I wanted to make sure that folks that are on the front lines of essentially pouring and serving this product are behind us. So those guys came in and I wanted to make sure that that community is able to taste our products give us their not of approval, their feedback, whatever. That was really the beginning of it. And you know, there was people that liked it and there's people that were not too crazy about it. I think we had the kind of the range if you would, our ultimate goal has been to kind of go after some folks that are new to the fold. I think the toughest consumers initially especially being unlovable where folks that you know, we're kind of source if you would, the people that have identified their brand and they don't want to, you know, they have a high standard if you would, and it's really hard for them to embrace the name, a new name, especially a you know, an outsider coming in, do whiskey geeks annoy you or connoisseur 42:54 as somebody new imagine just like you know what, you have a product and you have a 43:00 focused, like you said, and I'm sure it's a thick skin. Well, you can't please everyone and you got up. At some point, I'd be like, well, this isn't this isn't the product for you. We're not going after you. So like, I guess talk about dealing with the negative feedback from you know, those connoisseurs who like maybe haven't given you a fair shot or whatever. Yeah, hundred percent. I think that the earlier when we released we had some kind of, you know, back and forth with some of those folks that were commenting on social media or other other platforms. You know, at the end of the day, just as you said, we knew that we're in it for the long haul, and that we're going to have critics. And there's nothing wrong with that we're not going to be everything for everybody. What we have to stay focused on is making sure we produce quality and distinct products. And and that's it and be who we are, I'm not gonna be able to be somebody I'm not and they're going to either like me or or they're not. And Either way, it's okay. For me. As long as you're drinking bourbon. It's okay. It's all good. 44:00 So yeah, kind of dovetail on to that. Let's talk a little bit about the pricing aspect. Because you know, you look at the economies of scale, that larger distilleries have had the luxury, they've got time. They've got stock. And you know, this is this is something that we see in a market where people are trying to whether they're trying to recoup funds of putting up a product that's either maybe not mass market ready or anything like that kind of talk about your strategy that went into pricing your product, because I think at the lower end, it's around 45. And then sometimes depending on the country, it could be somewhere around 70. So kind of talk about that. Yeah, the range of the product prices is somewhere in the mid to late 40s. And then for the Sherry cask is in the 70s. 44:47 We did a competitive analysis essentially with other emerging brands and other brands that are kind of in that same vein as we are and that's where the pricing really came to be. Now add to that the fact that we 45:00 The the grains, the barrels, the process in terms of even putting in the barrel and hundred and 10 proof rather than 125 put into that bottle at 95 proof rather than a lower proof barrels that are essentially not only charged but toasted and chard always would fire rather than gas fired. Those are all elements didn't went into our overall thinking of where do we position this? Now I'm really proud of with the products that we have out there. And I think that the price point compared to what's out there is fair and balanced. Now I know that not everybody is going to like that or agree with that. But I think once we tell the story of what goes in the bottle, what goes into liquid what goes into the products, then I think it's a different proposition. And I think we've had more and more folks come and say okay, now it makes sense. Yeah. While you're placing it over here. Let me show you my P amp L and you'll you'll figure it out. 45:54 Like this, like it's not just some random number thrown out there. That's right. That's right. But at least from 46:00 I understand most of the whiskey is around two years old. No, now we are initial release was little bit about two to two and a half years old. And let me tell you a little bit about the thinking behind it because I would have never released it. If I didn't have particularly Larry's kind of Thumbs up if you would, because I really value his expertise and input. 46:21 Our liquid given the combination of being distinct, and also the way it tastes, the time we felt that it's, it's a good time to release it for a small local market. So initial release was essentially just in Kentucky and Illinois, Illinois, being my hometown of Chicago, and then Kentucky being our hometown here, and then slowly regroup. So now the liquid in the bottle is basically approaching four years old, so about three and a half to four years old on average. And that's where it is, and we're by end of these This year, we're having basically four year old as an average moving forward. I think part of it was, you know, the reality that there's a little bit of a pragmatism into it. That 47:00 After five six years it's time to you know if the liquid is good go to market but go about it in a measured way. And part of it was the reality that we felt that as a team that it's it's distinct and can stand on its own. And so I guess one of the other things is Believe me, Ryan I we've gone down this path we know we know we know that new labels are expensive and you know, if we look at like what peerless has done so peerless started off with a two year right, and then now it's a three year and a day, they age stated as they keep going, is there something that's prohibiting you from putting the age statements on the bottle? Well, the age statement is on the back of the label, we don't put in necessarily on the front, but in the back label, it indicates exactly what how, how old it is. And, you know, 47:41 it's going to continue as long as you know, we have our products. I think age is something that's relative. For me, it really depends on who's making it what's in the liquid. There's a lot of variance between between products. And I think one of the things that for us is really significant and that is in the barrels. I did a lot of experiment. 48:00 mentation, looking at those that are gas fired not toasted and barrels that are toasted and chard and wood fire. I can't tell you and I would love for you guys to experiment with that and see it if you haven't already, it's night and day, you know a two three year old toasted and chard barrel with wood fire, the color is an your your listeners are not going to be able to see it. But it's closer to our gym, as opposed to what we have. So the flavor, the color, the their readiness, if you would as much closer to where we would like it to be. Then, if I was using a different type of barrel and maturation process, do you think that you're finding some appeal to those whiskey geeks? Those whiskey enthusiasts or what do you think is something that's an angle that people can really latch on to that they can say, you know what, let's give this a try. Yeah, let's go on the journey with you. You know, 48:52 I don't know if there's a particular angle other than being able to talk about our story and the story being is essentially 49:01 Trying to take a tougher path to create genuinely a unique product. Right? If you want a high right bourbon or a blend of high right bourbon from a GP all day you can go get it with a lot of different brands. If you want a product that's truly unique with grains that you've never seen before with the combination you've never tasted with the type of barrels we're talking about or type of Merrill Lynch me and so on and so forth. Then this is this is an interesting proposition give it a shot and see what you think. So I also kind of want to touch on your your relationship with with different company or Devin co What do they go? Is it definitely Oh, yeah, go Yeah, I was like, company might be a little too long. But kind of talk about your relationship with them and what they're bringing to the table for you to you know, this is an overused term, but creative partners was really 49:55 it the risk of being corny. They've been solid creative partners for us. 50:00 First was getting in some ways, the approval of people that we really respect in terms of their palates and taste and aspirations within the industry. And then secondarily, the realization that we actually work really well together. Right. So they've they came here, and we have had a lot of interesting discussions in sessions about what do we want to do in terms of making sure that more people discover bourbon. So for most consumers cocktail is the first entry point, right, given their age and circumstances, not everybody goes to a sipping experience out of the gate. So we wanted to have the best one of the best cocktail makers out there to really partner up with us to showcase our product. And that was the thinking behind it. That was also the thinking behind making sure that the products go in the bottle at a higher proof in order to make sure that the flavor comes through even if you mix it with other ingredients. So I'm gonna take this on a different angle because it's kind of funny that you know 51:00 We talked to a lot of master distillers, you talked a lot of brand ambassadors. And they all say you've got a tailor to those people that are behind the bar. Because they're the ones that are pouring your product or the ones that are doing this. They're selling it for you. Yeah, they are that they're on the front lines doing this doing this the hard work for you. However, on like, the wiki geek side, they're like, Okay, well, I'd rather have a product that I can sip neat. So do you think that maybe there was 51:25 there's some, some confusion or some butting heads and these whiskey geeks and say, like, okay, like, Am I am I more tied to a product that's really marketing themselves from more of a cocktail industry? Or am I getting a product that I can really like sip whiskey neat? You know, 51:41 for me, honestly, guys, if I think about consumers, be at the whiskey geeks or other folks. I'm on the wrong track. You know, seriously, because I'm going to be subject to the women women have, you know, people, people's opinion and perceptions, and some of it could be just fad. You know, I think 52:00 in any industry, if you really want to make a mark, you got to be true to what you believe in. And, you know, sometimes it's a gamble, it might not pay off. But I think that's kind of the way we're approaching it. At the end of the day, you know, we feel that the products have to stand on their own. And it's about celebration for us, right? To me, making whiskey or making spirits really spirits is the best of humanity. So if you look at around the world, every culture, every nation has its own version of a spirit, right? That's one of the things it's kind of a binding experience for us. So, you know, you know, 52:34 as long as you're sipping it as long as you're enjoying it, as long as you're consuming it in any shape or form. be adding cocktail or not, that's to me what's important. I don't want to be a snob about saying this is the only way you can drink our bourbon or, or should because, you know, it's all about bringing people together. And if you're able to do that and enjoy it again on ice or without ice with whatever mix or no mix. That's all 53:00 Hey by me sure so I mean you say you don't care what people think which that you have to have that to be an entrepreneur but what what do you want or the story of the people should they tell themselves when they look at your product and I see it on the bar like what because when you see a brand or some there's there's something connected to what do you think that is for you guys? So don't get me wrong. It's not that I don't care about what they think I'm not going to allow 53:26 people's comments on social media sure to change course Riley Yeah, exactly. But otherwise you're going 50 different direct hundred percent one day somebody is that this and then 100% it six times a day. That's right. With that said, I want them to see rabbit hole is synonymous with innovation, quality, and making distinct products that are genuine, that's what I want. I want them to know us long term as a company and a brand that we're here to make good good quality spirits, particularly quality whiskey. That's the main objective. 54:00 So speaking of long term and objectives and business again, you know, when we when we talk when we think about the money that's being put into distillery, your long term goals and aspirations. Is it is it you're looking at this as an opportunity for generational sort of continuation? Or is it saying, I mean, don't get us wrong, like, if if somebody wanted to buy out this podcast? We feel like we were like, all right, so like, right it's the check. Because a lot of people seen you know, like how Western Kentucky out and they're enthralled with and investors especially are like, let's get into bourbon game, build a brand and then let's exit so you know, cash and so what's your be hag? What's your big, hairy, audacious goal? Yeah, you know, if you're asked me what I want, I'm looking for a multigenerational legacy Brown. That's what I want. I want this brand to stand long after I'm gone. Now with that said, you know, 54:54 are we going to entertain or talk to strategic partners? I think it's likely because 55:01 Be it 55:03 on your own or with partners. The reality of sales and distribution in today's market is that the big guys have learned from the craft beer and the wine movement where they're not complacent anymore, right? They're putting a lot of dollars and a lot of support behind it. So it's tougher for an emerging brand or small brand to get the share of mind of distributor and ultimately the consumers every position placement in that back bar in some ways, you gotta fight for it. It's a battle, right? And that requires money. So we've decided to do something I think unique in this was the original idea when I was kind of in that entrepreneurial business side of it, where we designed a distillery where we have the capacity to be able to do what others did for me in terms of contract distillation, right? It does two things. One, it brings really genuinely people that want to do some interesting different things and I want to kind of give back just like they gave me the opportunity. The other 56:00 thing is that that revenue is going to be really essential for us is essential for us to be able to develop a robust plan so we can make sure rabbit hole can actually be out there and compete with the big brands so i can you know get to my vision of having a long term multi generational brand 56:18 so just those earlier about you know contracts selling the nda would do you make your deal people purchase you are they allowed to explain where the sources from we're very proud of anybody who wants to talk about what we're making for them and generally the variance is on what they want you know some folks talk about it some people are want us to talk about it some people don't but the other way around absolutely i don't have any problems in any of the folks that we're making whiskey for to be able to go down a rabbit holes making our whiskey for us right now talk about roadmap a little bit let's let's talk about what's what's what's the business going to look like here in five years what's the what are the products going to look like in five 57:00 years, kind of kind of see, like, give us an idea of what what's gonna be happening here in your home base as well as what consumers out there can expect to see on the retail shelves. Yeah, so 57:12 the different bourbon recipes that were talking about earlier, one of the things that we're going to be doing in the coming years is beginning to release different types of bourbon out there. So we have the four grand right now. We have a high right that's coming out sometime third quarter of this year. So that's like the next line extension if you would, that we have we are also doing some finished products. But with that said, part of what we're working on right now is a new packaging architecture because I really want to make sure that there is a distinct difference between our bourbon and rye whiskeys straight bourbon and rye whiskeys with our finished bourbon and finished whiskeys. I don't want to confuse the consumer so we're working on a different package. So we can clearly distinguish those types of products and begin to 58:00 Roll out some of these new bourbon recipes in the coming years. We're also looking at a cask strength release in the fall of 2019 this year and those are kind of the immediate stuff but long term I'm hoping in the next five to 10 years we are helping consumers just as it happened with beer and wine are able to get more and more educated know the difference between let's say we did bourbon versus high rye versus you know for grain and ask about well what's in this for grain so on and so forth really elevate even more the level of IQ of whiskey consumers was it would all be under like the rabbit hole name or brand or will there be like different brand names for all the all the Bourbons are going to be unwise are going to be under the rabbit hole brand and and that's really the premise now we are doing some other experimental stuff with different types of spirits you know that we have a gym did we are finishing in our rye whiskey cask and we are experimenting with some clear liquids as well. 59:00 I think that even though you know, rockers out, right, yeah, I was like fresh ears just perked. Yeah, we're going the other direction. We didn't start using vodka. But I think you know, vodka is is is a pretty versatile product. And I think if we can just like the gym, do something unique and put our own fingerprints on it, we're open to doing that. So that's kind of in the thinking phase right now as well. Yeah, I mean, I see that as a good connection with you have with with death and co you know, because you, you, you're

It is just over a year since the night of Sunday, October 9th 2017, when nearly 111,000 acres and nearly 6,000 homes in the Napa/Sonoma wine country were incinerated by unstoppable flames. Word By Word host Gil Mansergh marks this occasion by reprising the “After the Fires Are Out” show originally broadcast of November 12, 2017. Gil has added a new ending to todays show by, providing updates on how our fire-impacted Word By Word writers are today.

Jake Jackson (AKA Jake The Wino) is a professional tour guide for the Napa and Sonoma wine regions. He guided Scott and Emigh through the area during their trip and was kind enough to sit down and talk with them about what it is like to work in the area as a full time job. Jake also discusses what it was like during the wildfires in 2017, recommends when to visit wine country, and gives tips for first time visitors. Visit www.trywinc.com/winewars for free shipping and $20 off of your first order from WINC. Use the promo code WineWars at checkout. Visit www.audibletrial.com/winewars for a free audiobook and 30-day free trial of Audible. Click through and shop on Amazon and help support the show. Visit us on all the social medias! Twitter - Facebook - Instagram - Vivino

In a short message to the church, Pastor Ken Jensen highlights some of the special efforts that Northgate staff and volunteers made this last week in support of those most affected by the Northern California wildfires. The church partnered with other nearby churches and organizations to become a distribution hub that literally sent over a hundred truckloads of material goods to relocation and support centers throughout the Napa/Sonoma region. Ken also brings some exciting news about some key changes coming for the Vallejo site that will begin in December. Support the show (https://thisis.church/give)

In a short message to the church, Pastor Ken Jensen highlights some of the special efforts that Northgate staff and volunteers made this last week in support of those most affected by the Northern California wildfires. The church partnered with other nearby churches and organizations to become a distribution hub that literally sent over a hundred truckloads of material goods to relocation and support centers throughout the Napa/Sonoma region. Ken also brings some exciting news about some key changes coming for the Vallejo site that will begin in December. 

GUESTSSegment 1: Robb Mayberry from the California Governer's Office of Emergency Services joins the program sharing insights on the California Wildfires, particularly in the Napa/Sonoma areas.Segment 2: Pat Vitucci of Vitucci & Associates joins the program sharing insights on the impact of the California wildfires from a financial perspective.Segment 3 - 4: Craig shares further insights on the status of the wildfires, along with advisories to citizens living in the San Francisco Bay Area.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

GUESTSSegment 1: Pastor Kevin Finkbeiner from New Life Christian Fellowship in Petaluma joins the program sharing insights on the relief efforts for the people devastated by the Napa/Sonoma wildfires.Segment 2: Craig shares additional updates on the wildfires with various media outlets.Segment 3: Reverend John Anderson from the Bay Area Rescue Mission returns to the program sharing what the organization is doing in relief efforts for the victims of the NORCAL wildfires and how you can also assist.Segment 4: Andrea Raynor joins the program sharing insights on how we are to be helped and comforted in the times of grief and loss.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Unbelievable amount of destruction in the Napa & Sonoma region of California.

Joan Morris, Columnist with the Bay Area News Group, and Harold Rhee discuss the Napa / Sonoma fires and their impact on animals and animal rescue. Find Joan Morris’s recent articles http://www.eastbaytimes.com/author/joan-morris/ Thank you Joan! About Nancy and Harold Rhee We have been married over 20 years, fostered over 60 dogs in the past four years, and we love animal rescue and the amazing people who dedicate their lives. And of course, the dogs and cats! If you want to learn more about Nancy and Harold, go to our About Us page at http://thisispawprint.com/about or listen to our introductory podcast episode, "Fifty Puppies and a Podcast." http://thisispawprint.com/000 About Pawprint Pawprint (or Paw Print) is a weekly podcast dedicated to animal rescue, adoption, and the heroes who make it happen. Volunteer, walk, adopt, or foster a dog, cat, rabbit, or other wonderful pet through your local shelter, humane society, SPCA, pound, and animal control. Stop abuse, and help increase animal protection, welfare, and rights.  http://thisispawprint.com http://animalrescuepodcast.com Don’t miss any new episodes. Sign up for our email list. If you want to join our animal rescue community and receive two free bonus dog-training resources from Irith Bloom, positive reinforcement dog trainer, go to http://thisispawprint.com/ask. Irith can be found at http://www.thesophisticateddog.com/ About Pawprint’s Music All of Pawprint's music is composed by Luke Gartner-Brereton. Luke is based in Brisbane, Australia, and he composes a wide variety of songs and musical loops http://info.vanillagroovemedia.com http://vanillagroovestudios.com http://soundcloud.com/luke-gartnerbrereton

Sept. heatwave threatens premium Napa-Sonoma wine grapes. Divert excess winter rainstorm water for groundwater basins? Road safety tips for farm vehicles.

Sept. heatwave threatens premium Napa-Sonoma wine grapes. Divert excess winter rainstorm water for groundwater basins? Road safety tips for farm vehicles.