Podcast appearances and mentions of Peter Sagan

In questo episodio di Triciclo abbiamo avuto il piacere di ospitare Daniel Oss, uno degli uomini più esperti e generosi del gruppo, protagonista assoluto nelle classiche del nord.Gregario instancabile, Daniel ha contribuito in modo decisivo alla vittoria di Greg Van Avermaet alla Parigi-Roubaix, offrendo un lavoro impeccabile nei momenti chiave della corsa.Un contributo così prezioso che Peter Sagan lo ha voluto assolutamente al suo fianco, portandolo con sé tra le sue fila come uomo di fiducia nelle grandi corse.Con Daniel abbiamo parlato del Giro delle Fiandre, una delle cinque classiche monumento, corsa iconica fatta di muri, pavé e battaglie leggendarie.Ci ha raccontato cosa significa davvero affrontarla, tra preparazione, sacrifici e passione pura.Un episodio intenso, pieno di aneddoti e storie vissute nel cuore del gruppo.Ascoltalo ora su Spotify, YouTube e tutte le piattaforme!

Trojnásobného majstra sveta v cestnej cyklistike Petra Sagana aktuálne možno vidieť tancovať na televíznych obrazovkách, no s tancom sa stretol už v detstve. Porozprával, čo ho zatiaľ tanec naučil, v čom je bolesť po tréningoch odlišná od tej, ktorú zažíval pri cyklistike a aj o športovej kariére. V Mimóze sa (ne)dozviete:1:38 – čím vypĺňa svoj voľný čas;3:00 – prečo pri cyklistike vydržal tak dlho;6:00 – aké bolo jeho detstvo;7:20 – ako je na tom s cudzími jazykmi;10:15 – čo bolo jeho prvé talianske slovo;12:30 – v čom sa líší bolesť pri tanci a pri cyklistike;14:40 – či bol spokojný so svojím prvým tanečným výkonom;17:00 – aké rozdiely vníma pri tanci a cyklistike;19:30 – o jeho pocitoch pred pretekmi;24:40 – na akú trápnu udalosť by najradšej zabudol;27:00 – ako vnímal to, že bol pre Slovákov a Slovenky národným hrdinom;30:26 – aký má vzťah k divadlu a herectvu;36:30 – či sa počas kariéry cítil vyčerpaný;39:30 – aké má hobby;41:58 – aké posolstvo má pre mladých ľudí.

Tadej Pogačar is going to Roubaix? Maybe for real this time? We can only dream. On this Strade Bianche Eve, the Spin Cycle crew cheers the news that the Tour de France Femmes may be headed to Yorkshire and discusses how Mathieu van der Poel toyed with the peloton before taking a moment to thoroughly enjoy Peter Sagan dancing on TV. Plus, everything you need to know ahead of Saturday's Strade Bianche and a look at the two stage races, Paris-Nice and Tirreno-Adriatico, kicking off this week. 

Po konci aktívnej kariéry cyklistu sa Ján Valach presunul zo sedla do auta a stal sa športovým riaditeľom. V tejto pozícii sa najviac preslávil ako športový riaditeľ reprezentácie či Petra Sagana. V novej časti Olympijského videocastu sme sa s ním rozprávali nielen o Petrovi Saganovi, ale aj o zákulisí Tour de France či o tom, ako Slovensko (ne)využilo časy najväčšej Saganovej slávy.Videocast vzniká v spolupráci so Slovenským olympijským a športovým výborom a novú časť nájdete každé dva týždne na ŠPORT.sk.Čo sa v rozhovore dozviete?aké boli olympiádu v roku 1996 a 2008aké boli začiatky športového riaditeľaaké je to byť v aute počas Tour de France a ako funguje komunikáciaako sa stratil Juraj Saganže superšampión Peter Sagan vedel veci sámčo s odstupom času hovorí na vylúčenie Sagana z Tourže Sagan bol ostro sledovaný rozhodcamiže sme zo Sagana mohli vyťažiť oveľa viacaký má vzťah k pivu

Po konci aktívnej kariéry cyklistu sa Ján Valach presunul zo sedla do auta a stal sa športovým riaditeľom. V tejto pozícii sa najviac preslávil ako športový riaditeľ reprezentácie či Petra Sagana. V novej časti Olympijského videocastu sme sa s ním rozprávali nielen o Petrovi Saganovi, ale aj o zákulisí Tour de France či o tom, ako Slovensko (ne)využilo časy najväčšej Saganovej slávy.Videocast vzniká v spolupráci so Slovenským olympijským a športovým výborom a novú časť nájdete každé dva týždne na ŠPORT.sk.Čo sa v rozhovore dozviete?aké boli olympiádu v roku 1996 a 2008aké boli začiatky športového riaditeľaaké je to byť v aute počas Tour de France a ako funguje komunikáciaako sa stratil Juraj Saganže superšampión Peter Sagan vedel veci sámčo s odstupom času hovorí na vylúčenie Sagana z Tourže Sagan bol ostro sledovaný rozhodcamiže sme zo Sagana mohli vyťažiť oveľa viacaký má vzťah k pivu

Sign up for Escape Collective today at escapecollective.comSpin Cycle, now earlier in the week! This episode dives into the Australian Nationals, focusing on the win by Luke Durbridge and the strategic role of Luke Plapp. Caley, Jonny, and Kit examine the unusual situation surrounding Caleb Ewan's contract with Jayco Alula and what we hear is going on behind the scenes.Also on the docket: Upcoming races like the Tour Down Under, Jonas Vingegaard's potential participation in the World Championships in Rwanda, the retirement of some notable riders, and another trip to Pidcock Paddock. Finally, the episode touches upon Peter Sagan's foray into Slovakian reality television and Tom Dumoulin's impressive half-marathon times.

This week Will and James are joined by Peter Sagan. When Sagan burst onto the scene in the early 2010s he was heralded as the greatest talent of his generation, and so he proved to be. 121 professional victories later he'd notched up three World Championships, seven Tour de France green jerseys, multiple Grand Tour stages and national titles plus a Tour of Flanders and a Paris-Roubaix cobble.Famed for his dry wit, flamboyant riding style and antics on and off the bike - from wheelies to running man celebrations - Sagan became cycling's poster boy for the better part of his 15 year career. Now retired, Sagan reflects on a life at the top, from the heady highs to the soul-searching lows; explains the importance of team dynamics; gives us his thoughts on today's riders; and opens up about a recently discovered heart condition that could have ended his life and has ended up costing him any further professional racing career.Will and James also discuss the UCI Cycling eSports World Championships, ridden on the MyWhoosh virtual racing platform, for whom Sagan is ambassador. The live UCI Cycling eSports final will take place on 26th October in Abu Dhabi and will see 20 competitors in both men's and women's events going head to head over three stages for a €60,000 prize purse. The event will be streamed live on YouTube here.Interview begins at 16.36----Did you know Cyclist is also stunning monthly print magazine? Subscribe now at store.cyclist.co.uk/cycpod and get every issue for less than in the shops, delivered straight to your door. And it's also a rather lovely website about everything road cycling and gravel. Check us out at cyclist.co.uk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

🚵 Hoy traemos un contenido diferente porque vamos a hablar de desierto y bicicletas. Hace unos días se celebró la TITAN DESERT ALMERÍA y contó con protagonistas de excepción como Luis Ángel Maté, Luis León Sánchez o Peter Sagan. Hablamos con MANUEL TAJADA, director deportivo de las Titan World Series. ⚠️ ¿Quieres ayudarnos? Puedes contribuir y convertirte en mecenas de La Bicicleta Podcast en Patreon. Desde 1,50€ al mes puedes ayudar a que sigamos aquí contigo cada día. https://patreon.com/LaBicicletaPodcast?utm_medium=unknown&utm_source=join_link&utm_campaign=creatorshare_creator&utm_content=copyLink Nos escuchas también en el Podcast Oficial de La Vuelta: https://www.ivoox.com/podcast-vuelta-podcast-oficial_sq_f11080118_1.html

Bloc d'atualités. J.O.Paris 2024: rencontre avec un collectionneur des pin's; Peter Sagan a la Maison slovaque.

Episode 115 - Mountain Bike World Champs, Gravel Nationals Preview, and let the Intersquad Smack Talk Begin What up party people. We've got a fun one for ya this week as we talk mountain bike world champs in Andorra this past weekend, Gravel Nationals preview, and the banter about what's to come at next week's Bonk Bros gathering at Chequamegon begins. If you have any questions or feedback for the show you can drop us a note at bonkbrospodcast@gmail.com or slide your way into those Bonk Bros instagram DMs (@bonkbros @dylanjawnson @adamsaban6 @tylerclouti @raddaddizzle @scottmcgilljr). Big shout to all of Patrons for continuing to share your hard earned dollars with us and also to our supporting partners including Silca (code: bonkbrosbikewash for 15% off), Bolt Skin & Shave (code: BONKBROS15 for 15% off), and Dynamic Cyclist (code: BONKBROS for 10% off). Alright let's get this episode started. Patreon: http://patreon.com/patreon_bonkbros   Silca (15% discount code: bonkbrosbikewash): https://silca.cc/?utm_source=Bonk+Bros&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=stripchip&utm_id=Bonk+Bros+Podcast Dynamic Cyclist (10% discount code: BONKBROS): https://new.dynamiccyclist.com/a/43703/xkYViFV8 BOLT Skin and Shave (15% discount code: BONKBROS15): BOLT Skin + Shaveboltshave.com   For more Dylan Johnson content: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIf1xvRN8pzyd_VfLgj_dow Intro/ Outro music by AlexGrohl on Pixabay.com: https://pixabay.com/music/id-111445/  Listener Question Form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1T37wGRLk6iYTCF6X_DQ9yfcaYtfAQceKpBJYR5W7DVA/edit?ts=642eb6d6     The Following Was Generated Using AI And Should Not Be Held To The Higher Standards Of Sentient Beings - Riverside.fm   Summary The conversation starts with a humorous discussion about a trip to Nebraska. They then talk about bike races and Dylan's experience with a cop. The conversation shifts to bike tires and sealants, with a mention of Dylan's weight gain. They briefly discuss professional cyclists and computer sponsors. The conversation concludes with a discussion about bike computers and recommendations. In this part of the conversation, the hosts discuss the performance of various athletes in different races. They talk about Drew Beal's performance in a race and speculate about the reasons behind it. They also discuss Melissa Rollins' unconventional approach to racing and the controversy surrounding it. The conversation then shifts to the Mountain Bike World Championships and the performance of different riders. They discuss the results of the Elite Men's Short Track and the dominance of certain riders. The hosts also talk about Peter Sagan's transition to mountain biking and his performance in the championships. The conversation concludes with a discussion about Lachlan Morton's upcoming cycling challenge in Australia and his decision to skip the Lifetime Grand Prix. The conversation covers various topics including the Tour of Britain, sponsorship, Project Echelon, and the upcoming Nationals race. Dylan shares his experience of pre-riding the Nationals course and running out of water. The hosts discuss the course, the rules, and make predictions for the race. They also talk about the sponsorship and support for gravel racing and the challenges faced by riders in finding good teams. The conversation ends with some light-hearted banter about Menards and Dylan's pre-ride adventure. In this final part of the conversation, the hosts discuss their plans for upcoming races and trips. They joke about sponsorship, logistics, and their competitive spirit. They also answer listener questions about tire sizes and head tube angles. The hosts have different perspectives on the importance of geometry and the reliability of rolling resistance tests. The conversation ends with some lighthearted banter and a fun fact from one of the hosts.   Keywords Nebraska, bike races, cop, bike tires, sealants, weight gain, professional cyclists, computer sponsors, bike computers, athletes, performance, races, Drew Beal, Melissa Rollins, controversy, Mountain Bike World Championships, Elite Men's Short Track, Peter Sagan, Lachlan Morton, cycling challenge, Australia, Lifetime Grand Prix, Tour of Britain, sponsorship, Project Echelon, Nationals race, pre-riding, water, gravel racing, Menards, races, trips, sponsorship, logistics, competitive spirit, tire sizes, head tube angles, geometry, rolling resistance tests, banter, fun fact   Takeaways Humor and lightheartedness can make conversations engaging Personal experiences and anecdotes add depth to the conversation Product recommendations and discussions can be informative Different preferences and experiences with bike computers The importance of durability and functionality in bike equipment Athletes' performances in races can vary and may be influenced by various factors. Unconventional approaches to racing, like Melissa Rollins' strategy, can generate controversy. The Mountain Bike World Championships showcase the skills and dominance of top riders. Transitioning from one discipline to another, like Peter Sagan's move to mountain biking, can be challenging. Cyclists like Lachlan Morton take on unique and demanding challenges to push their limits. Remco's flashy gold bike and helmet at the Tour of Britain Discussion about sponsorship and support for gravel racing Challenges faced by riders in finding good teams Dylan's pre-ride adventure and running out of water Predictions for the Nationals race The hosts discuss their plans for upcoming races and trips, including logistics and sponsorship. They joke about their competitive spirit and make fun of each other's racing abilities. The hosts have different perspectives on the importance of geometry in gravel and road bikes. They question the reliability of rolling resistance tests and emphasize the need for real-world testing. The conversation ends with lighthearted banter and a fun fact from one of the hosts.   Titles A Humorous Trip to Nebraska Tire Choices and Weight Gain Analyzing Athletes' Performances in Races Lachlan Morton's Cycling Challenge in Australia Challenges in Finding Good Teams Predictions for the Nationals Race Racing Plans and Logistics The Importance of Geometry   Sound Bites "Dylan, you in gearing Nebraska yet?" "I don't know man to get pulled over by a cop as soon as I got there" "What kind of sealant are you using these days?" "That's what Melissa did to win Leadville. She didn't have any metrics." "Did Riley Amos and Bjorn Riley go one, two in the Elite Men's Short Track?" "Maybe he said, you know, hey guys, I'm just happy to finish behind you right now." "Dude, Remco, sorry, Tour of Britain, back to real bike racing. Remco has a like, it might be gold plated bike. Yeah, gold helmet, gold bike, just like totally, totally decked out. That's wild." "It kind of sucks that we have all these really good riders that are on not such good teams." "They should make some mountain bike tires though, that'd be sick. I mean, if their mountain bike tires were half as good as their gravel tires, they'd be good." "Guess who's not going to sponsor us? Visit Gehring, Nebraska." "How many people are at this cabin in Shequamian?" "Bro, you're gonna get dropped so hard. It's not even gonna be funny."   Chapters 00:00 A Humorous Trip to Nebraska 02:26 Tire Choices and Weight Gain 06:08 Professional Cyclists and Computer Sponsors 09:00 Choosing the Right Bike Computer 17:11 Analyzing Athletes' Performances 18:00 Controversy and Unconventional Approaches 19:10 The Dominance of Top Riders 22:14 Transitions and Challenges 28:07 Lachlan Morton's Cycling Challenge 33:18 Remco's Flashy Gold Bike and Helmet 36:08 Sponsorship and Support in Gravel Racing 39:48 Challenges in Finding Good Teams 41:31 Dylan's Pre-Ride Adventure and Running Out of Water 47:29 Predictions for the Nationals Race 53:10 Racing Plans and Logistics 55:11 Competitive Spirit and Banter 56:17 The Importance of Geometry 57:38 Questioning Rolling Resistance Tests 01:01:01 Lighthearted Banter and Fun Fact

Stage 14 of the Tour de France 2018 saw a fantastic win by Omar Fraile in Mende and Peter Sagan again amazed us.

Join Dave McKenzie and Christophe Mallet to review the Giro, the COVID-19 results, and finally a win for Peter Sagan.

Silvan Dillier is a key part of the Alpecin-Deceuninck team. His role as a domestique saw him spent more hours at the head of the peloton at this years tour de France, than any other rider, as he worked for team leaders Mathieu van der Poel and Jasper Philipsen.He joined Bobby Julich and Jens Voigt shortly after the Tour de France had concluded to share his thoughts on a historic edition of Le Grand Boucle, what he's learned from watching Tadej Pogacar at close quarters and what it was like sharing the Paris-Roubaix podium with prime Peter Sagan. Join our patreon to get the latest updates from the podcast and hear an ad free version of this podcast. Check out our @OddTandem youtube channel to see the video version, and remember to follow us @OddTandem on your favourite social media platforms.

Daniel Oss is the man. This long time World Tour professional raced on some of the biggest teams alongside some of the biggest names in the sport. From Liquigas to BMC to Bora-Hansgrohe to TotalEnergies, he was easy to pick out from the bunch with his rock-star long hair. He was also nearly always at the front and often pulling Peter Sagan along to victory. He's now a gravel privateer as well as a commentator for EuroSport, taking on UCI races as well as Unbound.  Ted and Daniel were teammates for two years beginning in 2011 and this was a very fun catch up at a brewery in Emporia, KS a few days before Unbound. Follow along with Daniel's adventures at @daniel87oss  Check out WHOOP, try it out for yourself with a free WHOOP 4.0 band your first month FREE at join.whoop.com/ted And be sure to get your free offer at drinkAG1.com/tedking

This week on the podcast we welcome Justin Bowes, a coach at FasCat Coaching. We discuss the evolution of Fastcat Coaching and the development of their training app, Optimize. Craig shares he'll be lining up for the UNBOUND 200 in June and Justin has the tough job of getting him ready. Justin shares his background in racing and coaching and his love for gravel racing. They also dive into the specific challenges and strategies for training for the Unbound Gravel 200, including nutrition, hydration, and pacing. Justin provides valuable insights and tips for preparing for a long-distance gravel race. FasCat Coaching Optiimize App Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  About the Guest(s): Justin Bowes is FasCat cycling coach with over 20 years of experience in the sport. He started racing at the age of 15 and has competed in road cycling, triathlon, mountain biking, and gravel racing. Justin has raced professionally and has coached numerous athletes, including national champions in road cycling, mountain biking, and cyclocross. He is passionate about gravel racing and has an active 2024 gravel race calendar. Episode Summary: This week on the podcast we welcome Justin Bowes, a coach at FasCat Coaching. We discuss the evolution of Fastcat Coaching and the development of their training app, Optimize. Craig shares he'll be lining up for the UNBOUND 200 in June and Justin has the tough job of getting him ready. Justin shares his background in racing and coaching and his love for gravel racing. They also dive into the specific challenges and strategies for training for the Unbound Gravel 200, including nutrition, hydration, and pacing. Justin provides valuable insights and tips for preparing for a long-distance gravel race. Key Takeaways: Fastcat Coaching has evolved over the years and now offers personalized coaching as well as an app called Optimize, which provides real-time analysis and feedback for athletes. Training for a long-distance gravel race like Unbound Gravel 200 requires a strategic approach, including proper nutrition, hydration, and pacing. It is important to listen to your body and adjust your training based on factors like recovery, sleep, and overall fatigue. Simulating race conditions and practicing your nutrition and hydration strategy during training rides is crucial for success on race day. Having a support crew and a well-thought-out plan for aid stations and resupply points can make a big difference in your race experience. Notable Quotes: "Unbound Gravel is a challenging event, but with proper training and preparation, you can enjoy the ride and achieve your goals." - Justin Bowes "Training for a long-distance gravel race requires a balance of endurance, strength, and mental fortitude Transcription: [TRANSCRIPT] [00:00:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Justin, welcome to the show. [00:00:04] - (): Justin Bowes: Hey, Craig, how are you doing? [00:00:05] - (): Craig Dalton: Um, excellent. I'm excited to have another fast cat on the podcast. Frank on his gosh, it must've been like a year plus ago that we had Frank on board. [00:00:14] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. That's what he mentioned that, uh, when we first started talking about, uh, bringing you on is I hope you don't mind a project. **** - (): Um, he said, yeah, it was almost two years ago, I think that he was on. So yeah, this is cool to be on with you. [00:00:28] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's been awesome. I mean, I've been a big fan of the fast cat podcast over the years and I've picked up a bunch. I've never really in the last couple of years had anything super substantive to train for something that terrified me. **** - (): So we'll get to what that is and why I came back to you guys. But the evolution of fast cat over that time, obviously. That brought on additional coaches, but also built out a pretty amazing application, uh, iPhone app and Android app, I assume. [00:00:59] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, it's as, as Frank says, you can actually feel us getting faster and it's like you can feel us growing as well. **** - (): Um, yeah, with, you know, not only the, the success that Frank and the other coaches have had previous to me coming on, uh, which is the one on one coaching, but implementing. new AI, uh, scripts to, you know, a coaching app that can give you this amazing analysis, just as if you're communicating with a human. **** - (): Cause it takes all of Frank's 20 years of training peak comments and puts them into this app. And so when you get done with the ride, you get that instant feedback as if, Coach Kat, who is coach Frank, you know, is giving you, you know, that real time analysis just as you've uploaded that ride. Whereas me as a coach, you know, I may see that you've uploaded a ride, but I probably won't make a comment or analyze that ride until like the next day. **** - (): But with fast cat. It's there and it's right there for you. And, you know, as a coach, it's just like having a, uh, you know, a 24 seven virtual assistant. So it's, it's really cool. [00:02:09] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's been super interesting that the app is called optimize. And basically you can choose from Any number of the fast cat training programs. **** - (): So if you're training for a gravel race, or you're just trying to get faster in your group ride, you can just pick a plan and then it'll give you a program every single day of the week with built in rest. And to your point, a couple of months ago, I think they introduced coach cat. This AI, and it is pretty amazing. **** - (): The unlock I think originally for the app was this intersection of. Taking your HR RV, your recovery score and looking at that in the context of what's your workload proposed for the day and making sure if you're in the red in terms of recovery, they're not sending you out on a six hour ride. So I noticed as I was using it, you know, coach Kat would say, You know, you're in the red, do you want me to modify this workout? **** - (): And then you can just type in, Hey, yeah, I'm feeling crushed. What should I do? And you'll get back a workout. That's kind of slots into the overall plan or vision for where you're trying to get to. [00:03:12] - (): Justin Bowes: Absolutely. And I think, you know, So with the sleep metrics, more and more people are getting into and really understanding that importance of, you know, we've always been told, get that eight hours of sleep, you know, get, you know, get the bed and keep a consistent, uh, schedule, you know, the sleep hygiene aspect of your training. **** - (): And it's just more and more as the wearables, uh, whether it's the aura ring or a whoop or your Apple watch or. Uh, garment device or any of those other, um, devices, the metrics that they are kicking out are just getting smarter and smarter and fast cat, the app can collect all that just like you did a ride. **** - (): And so, like, as soon as you wake up and whatever device you're using uploads it to fast cat. He's already, you know, reading that and gives you that thumbs up or thumbs down on, you know, to go for it or, you know, Hey, let's hold back. And to your point, it's really nice to be able to, you know, have that chat with fast cat coach, um, to say, yeah, yeah, you know, I do feel great. **** - (): Let's, You know, keep the schedule program or yeah, I do feel kind of worn down. So maybe an active recovery day is, is better or a day off. And so fast KAC coach, you know, can adjust that immediately for you. And so you're on your way and not have to think about, should I, should I not? And it's actually a coach telling you that it's not just you putting a guilt trip on yourself to say, Oh, I know I should, but I've got a planned workout, so I should stick to it. **** - (): Great. Great. Yeah. I'm getting that feedback just as if I'm your coach or Frank or any of the other Fastcat coaches or your coach telling you, Hey, you know, let's take a day off. [00:04:57] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It took me a minute in January to kind of get everything set up like the, the head unit integrations are, are totally seamless for Wahoo and Hammerhead and other computers. **** - (): into the system for me, since I didn't have power at that point. And I was doing indoor training on a Peloton. There was a bit of a head scratcher because there wasn't a Peloton integration at the time. And it took a minute and going back and forth with the team over there to figure out, Oh, if I just at least record my Peloton ride with my Wahoo head unit and a heart rate monitor. **** - (): At least the data is coming in at that point. Right. So while it wasn't perfect, it kind of got me one step further. And then ultimately, uh, with the thanks to SRM, I did get some of their SRM X power pedals to put power on the bike, which has been a godsend, obviously in terms of our communication and just my ability to kind of really work within the app. **** - (): I mentioned that all to say. Like I was super jazzed with the optimized app and what it was delivering to me, but what I started to get a sense when some personal travel kicked up for April, this big chunk of time before my target event in June, like I was going to have a problem. I didn't trust that the AI could figure out this complicated equation of. **** - (): You could training for this big event training for the unbound 200 got a limited amount of time. How are we going to get the volume? How are we going to get all the different things that we need into a program? And that's why I went back to fast cat. And that's where I got introduced to you, Justin. So Yeah. **** - (): Long, very long intro talking a lot about the Optimize app, but Justin, welcome again to the show. Thank you. Let's just learn a little bit more about your background and then I have lots of questions about what's coming up for me. [00:06:45] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's crazy. Um, yeah, again, thank you for having me on the show. **** - (): Um, long time listener, first time caller. Um. Really appreciate, uh, the opportunity to, uh, to speak with you and obviously, work with you now, uh, with getting you on board and, um, get you ready for Unbound. Uh, so my background, um, the quick and dirty is I started racing when I was 15. I watched the 1984 Olympic Games, uh, in Los Angeles, watched Alexei Grewal, from the United States, win the gold medal in the road race. **** - (): And it was just like, my mind exploded. I was like, what is this? Like, I want to do that. And it wasn't like I was a stranger to endurance sports, um, between my oldest brother and my two younger brothers, all four of us, were involved either with swim team or, uh, cross country and track. Um, and we slowly kind of got into just, you know, riding at that time, 10 speeds as just, you know, part of training for running and swimming and everything else. **** - (): But it was, it was watching the Olympics and watching Alexi win the gold medal. I was just like, I want to do that. And so that next summer, um, I started road racing, but I also, um, got into triathlon as well. So I grew up in Kansas city. And at that time, there wasn't a huge racing scene in Kansas City. Um, there was in the Midwest. **** - (): So you had, you know, St. Louis was a hotbed. Oklahoma actually had a really cool old time, uh, stage race called the 89er. Um, Wisconsin, Chicago, obviously with, um, Uh, super weak and, and those crits out there, uh, back in the day. So we would have to travel to do, you know, the bigger bike races, but there was a booming triathlon scene in and around Kansas city. **** - (): And so, uh, raced in that, uh, worked my way up, um, got my pro card early, got my cat one, you know, about the same time as 17 years old. Um, Yeah, it was just, it was a good time of, of racing and training and everything. We had a really good, um, group of people to train with. Um, then, you know, raced professionally for a few years, um, decided I got, I wasn't making a career out of it. **** - (): Um, and so it was more like there was probably more to life than just living out of your car and traveling to races to try to get pre money to get to the next race and, and so on and so forth. And so. Um, I did transition to mountain bike racing in the early nineties, um, as I kind of aged out of the juniors and triathlon and road cycling mountain biking was taking off there in the late eighties, early nineties, and so race the nervous circuit. **** - (): And, you know, was good enough, but wasn't a great, you know, elite pro rider. And so that was when the light kind of turned on. It's like, you know, there's probably more to life than, like I said, living out of your car and going to bike races all the time. And so, um, yeah, I decided to start a family, settle down, have kids, um, and then literally did not touch a bike for, uh, six plus years. **** - (): Um, you know, I tell people they don't believe me. I don't share pictures, but there's evidence that I did blow up to like 250 pounds at, you know, one point while I was taking a sabbatical. Um, but it was about that time that, uh, my daughter was entering junior high and she wanted to, you know, run track and she wanted to do distance. **** - (): And so, and it was about the time where I was starting to get an itch to get back into it. The kids were getting old enough. I didn't feel as bad or as guilty trying to like get back into, to cycling. And so, um, Yeah, bought a bike off of eBay, bought some extra large bib shorts from the local bike shop, um, started riding, and then also running with her in the morning before school and work, and yeah, pounds fell off, the training itch came back, the racing itch came back, um, Started racing again in Kansas City, um, helped with some local clubs there, helped with race direction with the tour of Kansas City and some other cyclocross races there. **** - (): Um, yeah, and it just kind of blossomed, you know, from there. And then, uh, My wife and I, we moved up to Chicago. We lived there for five years, raced in the great crit and cyclocross scene up there, had an amazing time. We were up there for five years, and then now we are based out of central Virginia, uh, just outside of Charlottesville at the base of the Blue Ridge Mountains in Crozet, Virginia, and, uh, now taking advantage of the amazing riding that's here and just, Head over heels, uh, into gravel racing in the last, you know, five years big time. **** - (): And yeah, just haven't looked back since. So, um, all along the way, um, you know, coaching was a big part of that. And it was kind of a casual thing as far as coaching was concerned. When I first kind of started into it is when I got back into racing. The second time I had, you know, some friends that were running a team, a local club there for You know, new riders to get into, and they asked if I would help, you know, kind of mentor and bring those new riders into the racing fold and kind of introduce them to, you know, the ins and outs and kind of the protocols of training and group rides and, and things like that. **** - (): And one thing just led to another. It's just like, Hey, what did you used to do for training? And that kind of spiraled into here. Let me help you. And then more and more people are like, Hey, can you help me? And so, um, after we left Kansas city and went up to Chicago, the same thing kind of happened. And I was just like, maybe I should do this. **** - (): And then, um, I still, you know, I was working full time in the corporate world. I was in it. And, um, still racing and everything, but once we moved down here to Virginia, um, my job didn't transfer. And so my amazing wife, Andrea, she was like, why don't you just coach full time? You know, why don't you do that? **** - (): And so, um, it's like, maybe I should. And so I did. And so for the last seven years, yeah, I've just been a private coach and I've had, I've Yeah, a handful of national champion, uh, riders in road, uh, mountain biking, cycle cross, um, three from three different countries and road cycling, um, so yeah, it's been really exciting, um, and now I just started with, uh, Frank and the team and Fastcat, uh, here in the last month, um, It's, it's been amazing, full time, you know, transition from having my own coaching business to working with a team of coaches. **** - (): And that was kind of the allure was working with, you know, nine like minded individuals who shared the passion for development, mentorship, and. Teaching and, um, to be able to like collaborate and have our coaches roundtables, you know, and our team meetings every week and just be able to bounce things off of, you know, other, you know, coaches and, Hey, have you seen this? **** - (): Have you done that? Um, so I hope that wasn't too long and winded, but, uh, Yeah. That's, that's how we came about. [00:14:29] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. No, it's great. Yeah. And I, you know, to your point around the fast cat coaches, I've been enjoying getting to know some of them through the podcast and getting their different perspectives. **** - (): And I could see, you know, some of them have like a strong nutritional background or, you know, different backgrounds to bring to the table, which I'm sure leads to some vibrant conversations in your coaching meetings. [00:14:54] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we, we all kind of have our own niche. Um, I mean, we all obviously overlap with all the different disciplines, but you know, um, we have some that are really strong, you know, in mountain biking, some are really strong in cyclocross. **** - (): Some are really strong in road. Some like myself or, you know, kind of jack of all trades, but like, I really love, you know, racing gravel now. And so that's the language I speak. And so, um, Yeah. And so we can share, Hey, what tires are you using? What equipment's best for this race or that course or, you know, things like that. **** - (): And, uh, you know, I've got an athlete going to, you know, this race who's done it, who's had athletes there and things like that. And so to be able to cross pollinate, um, is, is really cool. And it's, it's really dynamic and exciting. [00:15:44] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Let's talk a little bit specifically about your experience in gravel, both as a coach and as an athlete. **** - (): I know you've been passionate about it the last couple of years. What have been some of the events you've been hitting? What do you, what do you like, like to do in gravel for yourself? And what have you been seeing across the athletes you're coaching? [00:16:02] - (): Justin Bowes: Sure. Um, so as far as like, you know, that, you know, I still haven't done steamboat. **** - (): Uh, gravel. I want to do that. Um, I'm trying to qualify again for, uh, the world cyclic cyclo cars, world's gravel championships in Belgium this year. I'd really like to go over there and, um, race in the worlds. Um, I missed it by a spot last year, uh, going to Italy. Um, we can talk about that. My. Body just kind of said no bueno during the middle of the race and later found out there was some medical stuff behind it. **** - (): So, um, got that all fixed, but, um, yeah, gearing up like you, I'm gearing up for Unbound, but, uh, unlike you, I'm only doing the 100. Um, this will be my third shot at it. My first time in 21, I was able to take 15th, uh, overall on that one. And then next year, 2022, I DNFed with a mechanical. Um, and so I punted last year and deferred to, to come back this year and we're going north and I really like the north course more, more so than the south courses. **** - (): Um, so I'm really looking forward to that. [00:17:15] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. What do you like about that north direction now that we're on that subject? [00:17:20] - (): Justin Bowes: Ah, I like the nasty, chunky gravel. Um, I, I think it, it's, You know, it, it's plays more into my strength, um, as a rider, I like the technical aspect of it. Um, the short punchier climbs is very similar to what I train on here. **** - (): Um, yeah, so it just, it, it fits in really nice. And I also like, this is going to sound really kind of sadistic, but I really like having the headwind on the way back. It really exposes, uh, the, the weaker riders and those who, you know, don't know how to deal with the wind. Um, and so, um, I just remember in 2021, uh, coming back and it was just like sucking on a hairdryer for, you know, 50 some odd miles of just like, it was just, Exhausting. **** - (): But at the same time, you know, growing up in Kansas city and racing across Kansas and Missouri and Oklahoma, I mean, I was used to it. And so it was, it was, it was almost like I am home, you know, it's like, it felt like being home. And so I was really comfortable with it. [00:18:27] - (): Craig Dalton: There's something interesting about like places you've trained and how they, your body recognizes them after the fact, when you come back and you're like, gosh, I have existed in this environment, this, this before I kind of get it. [00:18:40] - (): Justin Bowes: Exactly, and I mean, I, I do really well in heat. Um, my body just responds well with it, and unbound is inevitably extremely hot , um, and uncomfortable. Um, yeah, I just, I, you know, over the course of the, the, the, uh, the race, I just, I mean, everybody loses power. I mean, just because of, you know, the, the natural. **** - (): ebb and flow of the race and the distance and the duration and everything like that. You're, you're, you're going to lose power, but you know, the heat doesn't really affect me that much in the, in the fact of it, I can prolong that drop in power. Like I can put it off, you know, longer than, than most. And so I can kind of cope with it. **** - (): And yeah, I know, I think it's mental too. Like when, you know, you do well in a certain environment, um, or, you know, climate. That you're just walking into it and you're feeling like, yeah, I can do this when everybody else is like, oh, it's going to be 90 degrees, you know, and they're already, it's kind of like, you know, when it's raining or freezing cold, they're already shut down before the race even starts. [00:19:50] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. For those of us who might be heat challenged as a coach, how would you advise your athletes to prepare if climate in their home environment doesn't necessarily get up to those heats? [00:20:03] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. So it is a challenge, uh, because heat. obviously affects us, you know, differently, even if, even if you're in it, uh, some people just don't do well with it, but you have to be ready for it. **** - (): And so, um, you know, this is something we, you and I actually haven't even talked about. Um, but it's, it's one of those things where we want to do simulation rides to, um, prepare not only for You know what we're eating and drinking and distance and things like that, but also, you know, weather conditions and it's, it may be, you know, getting you back on your Peloton, you know, in a long sleeve Jersey and leg warmers and things like that, just to, you know, do some interval work, um, while raising that body temperature as much as possible and, you know, restricting the cooling aspect of it. **** - (): So, you know, the exact opposite of what we talk about when we talk about it. Training indoors of like keeping it 68 degrees and air flow and and all of that. Yeah, but to get you ready for something like that It's more like let's put a you know, thermal jersey on some leg warmers and you know close the garage and you know Sweat it out. **** - (): So [00:21:13] - (): Craig Dalton: well, I can I definitely have a hotbox environment in my garage if it's Plus 65 degrees, which I can reasonably get to here in the Bay area. The other thing you mentioned, and maybe just to put it in context for people who haven't done the North route at Unbound or just been out to Unbound in general, when you talk about a short punchy climb, what, what, what does that look like? **** - (): Give us some parameters. [00:21:35] - (): Justin Bowes: Sure. Uh, so duration, I know you and I've talked about this, uh, duration wise, you're looking anything from 30 seconds to, you know, as the race goes on, maybe five minutes. Thanks. You know, as opposed to, you know, a 20 minute climb or 30 minute climb or something like that, but just repeated short punchy climbs where it's just like straight down one side and then all your power up the next side for 20 to 30 seconds, you know, to get up and over it. **** - (): Um, and so that's, those, those are punchy climbs and you're, you know, you're looking at like, you know, anywhere from like seven to 12%, you know, type of gradients. You know, mixed in. [00:22:19] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. A lot of times, obviously, like when we can see the top of a climb as athletes, if we've got, if we've got the requisite power, we're going to want to push and roll over that right in a race of 200 miles. **** - (): And maybe there's 400 of said punchy climbs in the middle of that. How should you be thinking about it? And maybe, You can use some terms that we can get into later about VO2 max or sweet spot or like, where do you push to knowing that early in the race? Like I could probably hammer over this thing, but it may not be in my best interest six hours from now. [00:22:50] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, and you know, it's again, you know, with Unbound and especially the 200, we kind of want to reverse thinking as far as like, Hey, yeah, I can punch over all of these like really early on. And we want to like, think the opposite and say, let's take our time getting over these and just get over as smoothly as possible. **** - (): With, you know, putting out as little as power as possible to just maintain, you know, the pace that we, you know, you and I, you know, set upon as far as like our target, um, because course like unbound, it's a death by a thousand cuts. And those thousand cuts are those, you know, punchy hills repeated and things like that. **** - (): But in addition to the punchy hills, you just have these false flats. Of this never ending horizon also, you know, and so while, you know, maybe you have a section where you have a few rollers or punchy climbs there, you may have another, you know, 10, 15 miles of just nothing but a false flat of like one, 2%, if not more. **** - (): Where you just don't see the end, you know, that end just keeps moving on you. And, and that's, that's where the mental aspect really comes in of just like not allowing yourself to like, you know, get distracted by the fact that you can't see the end because most climbs We're on we know that we're up and over that climb and we're on to the next, you know, flat or downhill or something like this, where this is just nothing but a grind. **** - (): And so you just have to keep a mental, you know, a positive mental, um, attitude of. This is what I wanted to do. This is what I trained for. This is, you know, I'm ready for this. And so, um, you know, in everybody's power, I get, I get a little wary of like putting out power numbers, you know, for just examples, just because everybody is so different and the climbs there. **** - (): because they are technical in nature of because of the chunkiness of the gravel and things like that. Each one is so different. I mean, there just really isn't one that's the same because believe it or not, even the middle of Emporia, like there's a dozen different types of gravel that you're going to encounter and they're all in those climbs too. **** - (): And so, um, You know, one, you're, you know, you're sitting at, you know, 400 Watts to climb, climb up and over. No big deal. You don't even think about it, but the next one is steeper and chunkier. And so now it's just like to try to put out 400 Watts consistently. It's just like, I can't do that. Yeah. So it's just, it's a matter of, you know, just, you know, again, going back to your mental attitude and, and, and realizing that, Hey, I did the training. **** - (): I know I can do this. This is just another 30 second type of effort. I'm onto the next. [00:25:43] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. I'm, I'm confident there's going to be a lot of discipline along the way that needs to be applied as a writer. We all have the tendency of following wheels with enthusiasm, particularly if, you know, I, I won't and will not be doing many events. **** - (): So this being a singular event or one of a handful this year, I'm going to be enthusiastic and, you know, it's fun to ride in a pack. It's fun to do all these things. And I think it's going to be critical to always just check, check oneself and say, We've got a long day ahead of us. We need to play this out, the long game and be mentally disciplined along the way with our physical efforts. **** - (): And then also back that up with a strong nutritional strategy that you don't waver from as well. Because I certainly know from my Ironman days, you can make a mistake early and you're just going to pay for it. On the bright side, when you're talking about a 15 hour day, there's always opportunities to recover. **** - (): Yes. You cannot afford to get yourself in too big of a hole. And I do think it's just about having a system in place for nutrition, for hydration that you're following like a check, check box, like a robot. So just interested to get some, some more detailed comments from you on the nutrition side of things. **** - (): And you know, should we be writing things down on the top tube? Should we have alarms on our watches? Like, what are some tips to make sure that. We've got a fueling strategy that's going to get us through a long day. [00:27:15] - (): Justin Bowes: I, you know, as far as, you know, backing up for just a second and, and getting caught up in like the enthusiasm of, especially an event like Unbound, because that is like the center of dare I say, even the cycling world is focused on Emporia, Kansas on June 1st. You know, it's gotten so big that, you know, when you have teams like Ineos sending, you Cameron Worth over to check it out to see if it's even worth, you know, doing it's kind of a big deal, right? **** - (): You know, you have Peter Sagan dropping in just to check out what's going on and things like that. So it's very easy, you know, that entire week leading up to the actual race day to get caught up in just the swell of, you know, excitement and, and things like that. And then as soon as that gun goes off. And you're surrounded by, you know, 3000 of your closest friends to go do 200 miles. **** - (): Everybody wants to like be a part of it. And that's, that's like point number one of like, keeping your, yourself in check of just like, Nope, I lined up with, you know, the 14 hour crew or the 15 hour crew or whoever you line yourself up with. And that's who I'm staying with no matter what. And to that point, you know, it's easy to start talking with people and feeling good. **** - (): And I always tell my athletes. You know, when, when they have a, you know, struggle with, uh, you know, completing a workout or not feeling like they did their workout, you know, the right way, we immediately go back to the nutrition and hydration, uh, question. It's those simple, low hanging fruit, um, aspects of, well, what did you eat? **** - (): How often did you drink? And if it was an early morning ride, a lot of times, you know, they may have skipped breakfast altogether, or maybe just had like a slice of toast or a banana or something like that just to get them out the door because it was early. And while that used to be kind of. You know, common practice. **** - (): Now we know that that's not the case and our bodies need way more fuel than what we originally thought. Um, and a lot of us used to train with. And so now it's, you know, make sure, you know, if that, if you means getting up, you know, an extra hour earlier to actually eat a breakfast, that's what you have to do, you know, and as, and, and with you, you know, as we get closer to the event. **** - (): You know, we're gonna have to start practicing that early morning breakfast routine because you guys go off at 6:00 AM a lot of people aren't used to doing anything at 6:00 AM let alone embarking on 200 mile gravel race. And so, you know, practicing, you know, that fueling strategy ahead of time to, you know, wake, you know, the wake up time, the, you know, pre-breakfast, you know, was that coffee or tea or, you know, whatever it is. **** - (): And then eating, you know, substantial breakfast. And then getting on the bike and as you're sitting in the corral waiting for the start eating again, you know, and so I like to tell, you know, my athletes, while it's a neutral rollout, it's, you know, it's neutral, it's not, but at the same time, it's, that's, that's another opportunity for you to like grab, you know, another bar, another gel or something like that to stick in your face. **** - (): Um, because the more often that you can eat, the better off you're going to be because eventually you will get to that point where, you know, just through exhaustion and mental fatigue and physical fatigue and everything like that, it's very easy to stop eating and, and drinking, you know, you're just like, Oh yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll drink in five minutes, you know, or I'll eat again and you know, 20 minutes or something like that. **** - (): Well, an hour passes and you didn't eat, you didn't drink, and then you're in the hole. And so the tips to help, you know, get the food in and the drinks in, you know, a lot now are our head units have alarms on them, uh, to set, you know, at different, you know, uh, time, uh, periods of like anywhere from 15, 20, 30, 45, however you want to do it. **** - (): Um, To set reminders to drink or sip or eat or snack or however you want to do it. But for Unbound, you have to eat, you have to drink as often and as early as possible. And also for a big event like that, I like to recommend Real food early as much as possible. And when I talk about real food, it's like, you know, for myself, um, you know, my big ride that I had on Saturday, I make a double batch of pancakes, you know, a batch for me to eat for breakfast and then a batch to take with me on the bike. **** - (): And I'm eating, you know, a pancake every hour with my drink mix and everything like that, carbs up. So whether it's pancakes or peanut butter and jellies or, bagels, or, you know, I'll get fancy some days and do like mini croissants and ham and apricot preserves, something like that, or pretzel roll with, you know, country ham on it, things like that, where your body can digest and get really good, you know, high, Call it high quality carbs and calories into your body early, because the longer we go, our bodies will then not be able to process that real food later on. **** - (): And it's, that's when we start switching over to gels and blocks and the really simple sugar stuff, you know, the gummy bears, you know, things like that, um, to just keep the sugars coming and by eating the real food. earlier than you kind of stave off that flavor fatigue that you'll get from the gels and the drink mixes and things like that. **** - (): Um, and if, if, you know, if your head unit doesn't have, you know, reminders on there, um, I'm a big fan of putting like, um, colored stickers on my handlebars and stems, um, from multiple of reasons, you know, but in this instance, it would be like, Hey, why is that orange sticker there? Oh, it's to eat. You know, why is that yellow one there? **** - (): Oh, it's to drink. And so, you know, things like that. And then, you know, you hit the nail on the head. Make a little top tube or stem sticker, you know, decal with eat, you know, at this time, at this, you know, you know, make a little checklist for yourself to like run down and eat at, you know, six 30 at seven o'clock at seven 15, you know, whatever it is, just to remind yourself to, you know, constantly eat because. **** - (): As you, as you're going to find out, those aid stations are few and far between in Unbound. It's not like your local races where they're staffed every 20 miles or something. You have two aid stations and two water oases. That's it. You know, and it's a long distance in between those. [00:34:08] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, I've started, uh, on my long rides carrying my use way hydration pack and two water bottles just to kind of get into that routine of having that additional weight on my body and bike. **** - (): Um, and that, that sort of pressure to keep hydrating, I definitely need and appreciated your comments on. The kind of food strategy, I definitely need to think a lot more about what's going to work for me. I've got a pretty strong constitution historically in terms of like, I can eat the same thing all day long, but I don't think I want to do that. **** - (): Um, so I want to figure out like, yeah, what's, what is my strategy between real food and gels and what's going to be accessible? What's going to work. I've got plenty of questions on like, how the hell do I carry all this stuff? I know we've got a resupply point at one point, but I got to do the math and probably start, um, training with. **** - (): That volume of, uh, nutrition on me just to get a sense, like, do I have the right places to put it on the bike and where, how is it going to be accessible? Cause nothing's worse than that alarm going off for a gel and it being in your backpack and the hydration pack and you can't reach it. And [00:35:15] - (): Justin Bowes: yeah, [00:35:15] - (): Craig Dalton: you got to think these things through [00:35:17] - (): Justin Bowes: for sure. **** - (): And that's, you know, that's, you know, why we do the gravel simulation rides or the race simulation rides to not only. Get our bodies ready for the duration and the intensity of the race, but also to get our bikes and equipment ready. So, you know, if you're using a certain tire wheel, you know, that's what we're going to use on our gravel simulation ride. **** - (): Or I can't tell you the number of times where, you know, people are like, Oh yeah, I forgot where I put my tire plug and my CO2, you know, was it in my frame bag or was in my Jersey pocket, you know, and things like that. And to your point. You got to figure out where, you know, what pocket those gels are going in or what pocket the sandwiches are going in or, you know, whatever that may be and what that feels like, because we all know we have to stuff our faces. **** - (): But we have a finite amount of room, you know, to put it all on because we also have to feel what that bike, you know, feels like over rough terrain, you know, it's one thing to have a really nice light bike, you know, in training, but when it comes to race day and you're not used to your hydration pack, you know, And all the food in all three pockets. **** - (): And oh, by the way, where am I putting my emergency toolkit, you know, am I taping it to the frame or am I putting in a pocket or a bag and, and all of those things, and so, um, you know, I tell, I tell my athletes, you know, whether you eat at all or not. You know, at least train with it. So, you know, what that feels like, you know, so you know where to access it and what it feels like when you're climbing, because standing with a hydration pack and three pockets full of food, and if you're wearing cargo bibs and your legs are, Bunchy and, you know, bulging and things like that. **** - (): You know, what does that feel like? And you don't want to show up for a 200 mile race and be like, that's the first feeling that you've ever had, you know, and it's, it doesn't set a great precedent for the rest of the day. A [00:37:15] - (): Craig Dalton: hundred percent. This has all been super interesting. I want to jump into a couple of specifics around training. **** - (): Okay. As we've worked together, as I mentioned, you know, I was, I was doing the sweet spot training through the app in. February. And then we started working together the last week of February, first week of March. Right. And I've been pretty consistent since then, knowing that I had this travel date coming up this week on April 3rd, where I'm going to be gone for about 10 days or two weeks of losing two weekends. **** - (): And that was the big challenge I kind of put to you is like, Hey, I realized this is, I Really screwy. I need to figure out a way this, to make this work. And when we started working together, I started getting on these intervals and getting the consistency of the training program you were laying out. You know, one of the things that cropped up for me was like, gosh, I'm doing all these short intervals, definitely feeling stronger on the bike. **** - (): There's no question about that. But I had this nagging feeling of like, am I going long enough? And we talked a little bit about this offline, but it's, it's Maybe just for the listener, just kind of lay out, like, how were you approaching this challenge of, Hey, we've got, I guess, three months to get ready. **** - (): We've got a two week block in the middle where Craig's not available at all. [00:38:37] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. So it was interesting because like I said, um, We've got a challenge here. You know, this wasn't like, Hey, a year from now, I want to do unbound 200. Um, I probably should, you know, think about getting ready for that. It's like, Hey, I'm doing unbound 200 and we're three months out. **** - (): And so, um, that in of itself is, you know, a huge challenge just, you know, as, as an athlete to put that, put that on themselves to say, Hey, this is what I'm doing. Uh, but for a coach to hear that it's, it's like. Oh, man, how do we, how do we make that happen? And so, um, I was, I was confident. Um, I shared with you offline, you know, I worked with an athlete a couple of years ago and got her ready for unbound when, and we started working in January of that year to get her ready. **** - (): She had done unbound before, so she knew it wasn't her first rodeo. So she knew what she was getting into. Um, but still, you know, for a 200 mile race. The 1st of June and starting in January, it's like, okay. And like, at least you had some fitness, her fitness had kind of like dipped way off. Uh, she had just kind of like taken the winter off and was just like, Hey, I'm going back to unbound. **** - (): I heard you're a great coach. Can you get me ready? And so, you know, part of me was like, Challenge accepted. And then the other part was like, what did I just sign up for? And so I kind of had a little deja vu with you, Craig, um, when this popped up, uh, with you and with you and Frank. But yeah, getting back to your specific training, um, since you had some fitness coming in, Um, what I, how I wanted to approach this was I looked at it in kind of a couple different parts. **** - (): One, the actual event that we're looking at, but then the main challenge of you being gone for a huge block of time in what I would consider pretty critical timeframe, um, for our training. And so it was kind of like, yeah, we, we definitely need some saddle time. We definitely need to build up to, you know, as close a distance as possible to get ready for, you know, 200 miles and, you know, likely, you know, anywhere from 12 to 15 hours, um, on the bike. **** - (): So, but there's two weeks where he's not going to have access to actually riding. And so what, what can I do to. jumpstart the training. Um, and that's how I kind of looked at it. It was just like, okay, we gotta put the, uh, put the jumper cables on here and, and give it a jolt and, and see what happens. And so incomes, you know, our bread and butter at fast cat was, you know, our sweet spot training, um, and adding some intervals into those sweet spots as well. **** - (): So that we're, we're tapping into all of your systems. Um, we're not just sending you out and doing, you know, four hour rides just for the sake of doing four hour rides just to get in, uh, training. That's, that's definitely an approach, but I feel like if we can touch on, you know, some sub threshold, a lot of sweet spot, um, and even some anaerobic work. **** - (): In the weeks leading up into your two week, um, off period, then we're, we're really, really kickstarting your fitness to get ready for those longer, harder rides that we have planned for you once you get back. Um, and to let the audience know, you know, you're going to be doing a gravel training camp basically the week after you get back, you know, from being gone for two weeks. **** - (): And so, um, we'll have a couple of active recovery days. after the two weeks off to kind of get you back into the swing of things. But then you're gone to just basically ride as much as you can, um, to build back up that fitness. Um, uh, that not, we're not losing it in those two weeks by any stretch, but it's taken a hit. **** - (): And so we have to Start addressing the duration and the longer hours in the saddle. So yeah, I mean, looking back on your, your workouts, I mean, we, we've kind of hit it all we've done, you know, everything from 30 thirties to extended, uh, sweet spot, um, intervals, um, some threshold, um, anaerobic over and unders. **** - (): Um, and for those that don't know what over and unders are, it's basically like a burst of power. For a short amount of time, you know, 20, 30 seconds, and then you settle into a sweet spot, um, or a tempo style, uh, zone for a while. And then you end it with like another, uh, burst of, uh, power at the end of that. **** - (): And so a couple of things we're doing with that is not only, again, Trying to build up as much aerobic capacity as possible, but also getting you ready for those type of little punchy climbs that you're going to encounter out in the middle of Emporia, Kansas, to where you will have to put out power to get up and over those, but then you're going to get over them and then you're going to settle back into your, your tempo, your sweet spot type of zone. **** - (): That's going to carry you on, you know, till the next, You know, climb is going, you know, that, that pops up. So that's kind of the thinking behind it. Um, you know, you work full time too. So it's not like you can just like, Hey, uh, give me six hour rides to do. If that was the case, it would look a little different, but because you have a life outside of this, um, we have to be very strategic with your training and take advantage of the time that you do have. **** - (): And, you know, you do have, oh, you know, time on the weekends to get into longer rides and we've That's what we're doing. That's what we're taking advantage of but during the week when you have to be accountable to your other Other part of your life. We have to get in as much aerobic training as possible And that's what these type of workouts have been designed to do [00:45:02] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, it's been super interesting transitioning from indoor training to outdoor training with the power meter and figuring out where I can get the work done. **** - (): I live in a relatively hilly place, so sometimes it's taken me a bit to just figure out how long will it take me to get to this particular section of road. Where I can do the work required or, you know, go back and forth to do these intervals and make it all work. It's been fascinating. The other sort of funny takeaway for me has been, I swear, like last year, I probably, the, I, the only effort I would ever do would be going uphill. **** - (): Right here in the Bay area. I mean, there's substantial effort required, but like if I was writing somewhere like writing to Nicosia or some loop around here, I was not writing purposefully at all. I was lollygagging. Like when I look at the power meter now, it's like every, every bit of the workout that's structured, like, I'm like, Oh, I'm actually putting effort in, even if it's like the easy. **** - (): Period of the workout, right? Because it's all programmed. Right. It's just been fascinating to me and funny. Like I have a lot of chagrin about the whole experience to be honest. [00:46:14] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, this whole thing has been interesting for me as well, because you know, not only like, you're kind of, you're kind of an anomaly in the sense of like, you've, you've done training in the past, right. **** - (): With your Ironman background and everything. And it's not like you're some new cyclist, you know, Come lately and just like, this is what I want to do sort of thing. I'm going to hop on the bandwagon. That's not you at all. But to your point, the purposeful training hasn't existed, you know, for a long time. **** - (): And then like, we're training for, you know, the biggest gravel race in the world. And then also it's like, I haven't been training with power and it's just like, I have to get some power meters. And it's just like, that's definitely going to help. And so, um, Yeah, you know, coaching you with, you know, understanding, you know, again, it's not like you live in a simple area of like, Oh, yeah, I've got an uninterrupted, you know, 30 minute spot that I can go and do intervals on. **** - (): It's carless and it's flat. It's perfect. You know, it's like, no, you're like, I've got an hour climb this way. And I've got a 45 minute climb that way. And. You know, it's just like, how do we do this? And so, but then also like how, you know, not only coaching you on, you know, how we're going to get you ready, but then also like, how do you ride with power? **** - (): Not just outside, but how do I ride with power outside? In my environment, you know, that is not conducive to, Oh yeah, I can do a five minute effort here. No problem. Or this over here is like the perfect loop to do my 20 minute test or, you know, anything like that. It's like, so it's, it's been interesting to say the least, but I mean, to your credit though, Craig, I mean, like when I, when I get the alert that your ride has been uploaded and everything. **** - (): And I take a look at it. And then you, you do a really good job too, of, you know, of following up with comments, um, which note to everybody out there that has a coach, please make comments to your coach. Um, but you know, to be able to see, you know, what you did and you give me the context of, Hey, this is the route that I did. **** - (): And, you know, I can take a look at it on the GP, uh, GPS file and see like, Whoa. Yeah. That was, A steep one or, you know, longer climb that what we expected, but, uh, you're handling the training. Amazing. Um, and you know, again, to the audience, you know, the purpose here, the last month is, has been to load you up, to load Craig up as much as possible with, uh, workouts. **** - (): So when he goes into this two week time, it's actually like a recovery period for him to allow his body to soak up as much of the training as possible. Um, and so when he does get back and we do start piling on the hours, his body's ready for that. So. [00:49:13] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, I've tried to, tried to stick to the plan , as you guys always say, [00:49:17] - (): Justin Bowes: FTFP, , [00:49:18] - (): Craig Dalton: FTFP. **** - (): One thing you had mentioned to me in our last conversation was that, you know, my, I forget whether, whether it's the fatigue score in training peaks or something, like we are running in a pretty hard deficit. Yes. And you would normally say like, he's gonna crack at some point. Right. But we, we've been riding, riding that edge and I, yeah, and I feel it, I mean, as an athlete, like I am. **** - (): Still super motivated to get on the bike, even though I am feeling the fatigue, but I also do feel like I am somewhat on the razor's edge at times and I have to be really cautious about making sure I'm getting the proper rest and the proper fuel in me to kind of recover to go at it. So I am looking forward to. **** - (): A little bit of time off in the next couple of weeks. [00:50:02] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, I bet. No. Um, for those who are, are familiar with training peaks, um, he's talking about his form score or his TSB, um, his training score balance. And, um, a lot of, a lot of coaches, uh, subscribe to this and, you know, I've worn athletes, you know, once we get into that negative 20 to 25, That's like kind of the, those are when the alarm bells start going off of like, Hey, that's usually what we see at the end of a training block. **** - (): Right. Um, of like a three week build, if we're doing it on that protocol of like, okay, we've gone as far as we really want to push. Um, now it is time for a recovery week, a regenerative week to just allow that, um, work to just soak in and allow your body to recuperate because, you know, in training, the basic training principles are, you know, we throw. **** - (): stress after stress after stress at you and then your body adapts, adapts, adapts, and then we rest and then it does a full, you know, adaptation and it moves on to the next, you know, training load. And, um, for those who are keeping score at home right now, um, Craig finished the week, um, his CTL was 61, uh, his fatigue or his ATL was 107. **** - (): And his form is a negative 42, um, leading into this week. Now, today he had a recovery day. He had a foundation stay where his, uh, mobility work, uh, he was off the bike. Um, tomorrow he does have one final threshold, uh, workout to do, but then he is. gone for the next two weeks. Um, and so, as we have it planned out, um, once he comes back, um, to, back home, he will be, his form will have risen back into the positive side with a form, his TSB will be at 28. **** - (): Um, and so that's well rested and to the point of like, we start losing fitness, um, depending on the individual. Um, and so that's why it's a really, it's a great thing that Craig has this available that he'll be able to go away and do, you know, His own mini, uh, gravel training camp where he'll just have multiple days, you know, in the saddle and we're going to do it to the point. **** - (): If you don't mind me sharing, Craig, we're going to do it to the point where, you know, we're going to stair step it in because he'll have four days. You have pretty much uninterrupted writing. And I see a lot of times mistakes being made when people go away for a training camp or a team camp or they get their writing buddies together. **** - (): Hey, we're gone. We're away from home. We're away from work. We're just going to ride, ride, ride. And. Which is all well and good, but if you don't do it the right way, you can ruin your your camp like on day one. And you know, most people like, yeah, let's go smash a six, seven, even eight hour ride. Well, then they're shot for day two and day three. **** - (): And they're just kind of on the struggle bus, the rest of the camp. And so, um, Craig and I talked, uh, on our last one on one meeting to, you know, stair step those rides so that, you know, day one, um, It's going to be a longer ride, you know, two hours, three hours. That's, that's great. But then that way for the next consecutive days, he can keep adding hours to it as opposed to just doing the biggest ride he can on day one and being torched the rest of the time, because that's not going to do him any good. **** - (): We're not going to get anything out of this, uh, getaway. If we share ourselves in the foot on day one. So, [00:53:50] - (): Craig Dalton: yeah, yeah, I'm excited, scared and all the above for, for may. I'm definitely excited to put in the long hours as I mentioned to you in a previous conversation. Like if I was planning this out, I basically would have put every single weekend. **** - (): Longer and progressively longer distance and more brutal amounts of climbing across the three months remaining. So, you know, it's been, I definitely feel stronger as an athlete already from this approach. Definitely. I'm still concerned about my ability to get to a time volume level that makes me confident showing into the 200 unquestionably. **** - (): It's, it's unknown. Territory for me. I think the longest I've ever ridden on a bike is 130 miles in a day so that, you know, there's a lot of gray area ahead of me, but I think that is not uncommon for recreational athletes hitting the unbound 200 for the first time. It's the first time for everyone. [00:54:51] - (): Justin Bowes: And I mean, and to be honest, Craig, there's, there's not many, uh, professional or elite, uh, riders that are training. **** - (): You know, over 150 miles, you know, and one pop, uh, to get ready for unbound. So you're, you're not alone. Um, but again, it's, it's, it's being strategic with our training and not just writing for the sake of writing. Um, we, we obviously want you to finish and we, and. You know, finishing is one thing, but I want you to enjoy the ride as well and enjoy the, just the environment and being there and being part of it. **** - (): And if you're just completely gassed because we didn't train you properly, it's, it's just going to be a miserable experience from dawn to dusk basically. And you know, that doesn't do you any good and it doesn't do, you know, anybody any good to, to just, you know, suffer through something. Undeniably, you're going to suffer regardless of, you know, how we train everything like that. **** - (): That is just a long day. I don't care who you are. Um, and, and it's all relative, right? You know, whether you're Keegan at the front of the race or the very last cutoff finisher, you know, that they keep from the, uh, the checkpoint, the final checkpoint. It's all difficult. Um, and so, um, I'm just trying to make it as less difficult for you. **** - (): Yeah. Um, yeah, along the way. And [00:56:17] - (): Craig Dalton: that's definitely one of, you know, one of my stated goals is I want to do it in a healthy way and feel, you know, it's going to be hard. It's going to be hard. It's going to be suffering, but I want to, you know, Enjoy the community. I want to enjoy the people I'm around and I want to get to the finish line and be able, you know, not be a shell of myself. [00:56:34] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, one thing also, um, just real quick, I was thinking, you know, as far as like nutrition and things like that, Um, one thing I haven't shared with you yet, uh, Craig, is I have like a nutrition checklist, um, for your support staff to, you know, at the aid stations. Um, just, you know, suggested this is what you should have not only for Craig, but for yourself and, you know, for, for those who are doing unbound and you guys who are taking, you know, spouses or partners or teammates as, you know, support staff, um, look out for them as well. **** - (): You know, they, they need to have. Like their own nutrition and hydration plan as well, because they're out there just doing nothing for a long time. And it's helpful just to, you know, think about, Hey, yeah, um, I should have like a couple of different varieties of drink and sandwiches or, you know, whatever their case may be. **** - (): So [00:57:33] - (): Craig Dalton: a hundred percent hats off to anybody who supports the athletes endurance events. I know Uh, supporting my wife's Ironman efforts. I felt like it was harder than doing them myself. Oh yeah. Just because you cut, you cut corners, you know, you're not thinking about that. You're actually on your feet all day as well. [00:57:50] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. I know. I remember when Andrea did the Chicago marathon, like I ran from, you know, train stop to train stop so I could, you know, catch her at the different, you know, checkpoints. She thought maybe she'd see me once out on course, but there was like half a dozen times that, you know, you're just running around doing different, um, trying to get to different points on the course. **** - (): So yeah. Tip your support staff for sure. [00:58:19] - (): Craig Dalton: Amazing. Justin, thanks so much for the time this evening. Thanks for all your efforts on my behalf to date. Uh, it's been a pleasure working with you thus far, and I'm excited to get to that finish line together. [00:58:32] - (): Justin Bowes: Oh, for sure. Craig, it's been awesome working with you and yeah, I'm equally as excited. **** - (): Um, you know, it's, it's one thing for me to be training. You know, for my unbound, but when I'm training multiple athletes, you know, for, for unbound as well. And I just, I, I get, I, yeah, I I'm, I'm right there alongside them, you know, no matter what. Um, and you know, seeing you finish and complete your workouts. **** - (): And when you, you feed me the comments of like, yes, I'm getting tired, but man, my. You know, my spirits are still high and ready to get on the bike tomorrow and, you know, tackle this next workout and things like that. That's just like a, a check along the way for me knowing that, you know, I'm helping you, you know, achieve something that you really wanted to do. **** - (): And that's really exciting on my end. [00:59:22] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Fantastic. I know we'll be checking in. Maybe we'll do something again on the podcast. Um, cool. Yeah. But until I talk to you, Have a great night, Justin. Thank you. [00:59:32] - (): Justin Bowes: Thank you again, Craig.    

15th April 2024 The Spokesmen Cycling Podcast EPISODE 351: Andy McGrath — God is Dead SPONSOR: Tern Bicycles HOST: Carlton Reid GUEST: Andy McGrath LINKS: https://www.the-spokesmen.com/ https://www.ternbicycles.com https://twitter.com/CarltonReid https://twitter.com/Andymcgra https://andydoesart.substack.com https://www.amazon.co.uk/God-Dead-Vandenbroucke-Cyclings-Wasted/dp/0552176044/ TRANSCRIPT Carlton Reid 0:12 Welcome to Episode 351 of the Spokesmen cycling podcast. This show was engineered on Monday, April 15 2024. David Bernstein 0:28 The Spokesmen cycling roundtable podcast is brought to you by Tern bicycles. The good people at Tern are committed to building bikes that are useful enough to ride every day and dependable enough to carry the people you love. In other words, they make the kind of bikes that they want to ride. Tern has e-bikes for every type of rider. Whether you're commuting, taking your kids to school or even carrying another adult, visit www.ternbicycles.com. That's t e r n bicycles.com to learn more. Carlton Reid 1:04 I'm Carlton Reid. And today's show is the first of two episodes with bike book authors. Later this week, I'll share the chat I had with potholes and pavement author Laura Laker a book so fresh, it's not even out yet. But today, I talk with William Hill award winning author Andy McGrath about his 2022 book, God is dead biography of Frank Vandenbrouke the wunderkind who died a mysterious death in a grungy African hotel room. Liège–Bastogne–Liège has been staged since 1892, the oldest of cycling's five monument races, and this year's race will be staged at the end of the month, Sunday the 21st to be exact. Now, Andy, it's 25 years since a certain famous victory of that particular race. So tell us about that. Andy McGrath 2:10 This was the edition of Liège–Bastogne–Liège where the great Belgian cycling hope Frank Vandenbrouke seemed to be fulfilling his immense potential. And he did it in his own unique way. He told anyone that would listen in the days for the race, you know, teammates, DS's, rivals and other races and media, where he was going to attack to win the race to make it stick, a bit like Muhammad Ali used to do before his heavyweight fight. And he'd went out for a 20 minute puto, a few days before the age best on the age. And it's covered his teammate saw him come back to the hotel, you know, barely a blink of an eye later. And he told him, that's all all I need, I feel good. I'm going to win lift some of the age. And he was in a state of grace that day, he attacked on by ODU, which sounds different course back then. It finished in an industrial suburb over the age. And the Cordilla. Redo was about oh, at 90k from the finish. And he, he he wrote up in the big room, he tacked up in the big green, which is I could barely walk up it when I was researching the book, which is a astonishing and slightly sinister thing when you really get into that era of cycling. And he was already clearly the best, you know, he he accelerated pass the defending champion makayley Bartley like it was nothing and then he just let the rest catch him up, basically. And he did attack, you know, if we're going to split hairs slightly later than he said he would you know, or maybe earlier actually, I think it was early. And he said he would you know, a few 100 metres earlier. Because Carlton Reid 3:55 Because that's in your book, isn't it? Yeah. It's a very detailed book and you you're knocking on doors, and you give the exact door that he actually did attack on and not the one that you said he's going to attack on? Andy McGrath 4:06 Yeah, the thing is, I actually knocked on the door of the house number he said he would attack which was 256. You know, hoping for some kind of journalistic intrigue and it was a little bit disappointing that I think people that answered the door were very nice, but it was someone looking after their elderly parent and they said they didn't like cycling, they didn't know about it. So so so I was like yeah, that's there's that avenue gone in the book. But no abandoned Brook road away from the last remaining rival Michael Burgard on the court to send Nicola outside the edge and road to victory just like he said he would and you know, a country that was already in thrall to him was an even more rapturous, you know, Eddie Merckx was extremely impressed. You know, the Eddie marks the greatest and that was really, I think it was 24 Back then van of work, and it wasn't so normal for providers to break through in their early 20s, which is what he had done. He was the exception. And it seemed like that, you know, the cycling world was gonna fall to him. You know. During the book research, I kind of ascertained that he could probably have won almost anything apart from a grantor, you know, he was a strong climber, but didn't have the consistency or the or the mentality to do it over three weeks, but everything else was, was fair game. But that was a very brief high point, you know, that was that was paradise. And he was soon into purgatory. And then how, you know, within a year, which kind of summed up his his life and his career trajectory. Carlton Reid 5:41 And, and spoiler alert, the kind of the title of your book tells us that Frank is no longer with us. But you did refer a few moments ago, almost to the fact that this is an EPO era. So he's going up in the big ring, that's kind of Superman stuff that, you know, Nietzsche, God is dead stuff. So clearly he was he was deeping, he kind of admitted he was doping. This is the EPO era. But then what everybody was saying at that time was, well, everybody was doping. So we're all equal. Do you buy into that? Are you if everybody's taken EPO at the time, and he's such a wonderful rider? Let's give him those victories, because everybody was on this stuff. person. Andy McGrath 6:27 I mean, they're all saying at the time, and I was partly what bothered him, you know, 5, 10 years later that he felt that he was being scapegoated. What we know now, is that essentially, you know, let's be the what's the word diplomatic here? Legally, most of the bunch, we're, we're doing it, there's been lots of admissions. Do I think that makes it okay, in a level playing field? No, no, I don't think so. That's too simplistic, you know, that comes down to you know, things like science and natural amount of creates and how much room you have to dope, you know, or to get up to the rudimentary UCI testing limit of 50, which it was back then, you know, which was, like a broken speed Camry on a motorway. It barely stopped cheating. If you are caught over the 50, like, image credit limit you are. I think you were given a small fine, and you couldn't race for two weeks? What kind of, you know, what kind of punishment? Is that really what kind of thing to stop? Anyone from having huge gains, really, that can change, change everything? So no, no, it wasn't fair. Like it's not fair. And there are a fair few riders who were probably in, in the minority who chose to be clean, you know, to ride on bread and water, as they say, who didn't make it who had to take other jobs who. And that was the kind of that's always a sad thing about doping in a way, you know, that. I don't think anyone who's has a positive for doping, who's cheated. When they get into cycling, they don't want to put a needle in their arm or have their blood transfused or whatever kind of ghoulish thing hopefully went on, doesn't go on now. But along the line they get, they get sucked into certain culture and you know, you invest so much time and energy and sacrifice into something you love, and you have to love it. That you realise, well, this is the kind of Faustian deal that many of them thought I had to make that they thought that they didn't do this, they would finish in the last group or second class group and they wouldn't, they wouldn't get the contract renewed. They wouldn't even be close to winning, you know, to fulfilling their childhood dreams. And you have an abrupt turn turn pro in 1994, which was really probably the worst the worst possible year to turn pro maybe in cycling, because EPO was, that was the year that it was about to get ramped, and if it wasn't already ramping. Carlton Reid 9:00 And then Cofidis wasn't exactly the cleanest of teams. Andy McGrath 9:04 No. I mean, this is Vandenbrouke. He was on Mapei who were the Italian super team. You may see their products in your local homeware stores you know, they still make I think it's grouting Yeah, ground tiles, tile, yes. tiles. things are still popular. I still smile when I see them and and b&q and all other good stores, but they were the best number one, and they really complimented in hindsight, complimented Vandenbrouke perfectly because often, you know, in in the classics of old classics, he won and he won a fair few, you know, scale the price hit Volk, obviously Liège–Bastogne–Liège. He could be the attacking foil or tactically to say Tom Steels, a sprinter or Johan Museuw, who was a permanent cobbles rider. But anyway, after three, four years, which were the most stable, far and away the most stable years, results wise and maybe mentality wise over his whole career. He has acted in he he wanted to be a contract. He wasn't ever patient with very much ever. And he he chose good to French Team Cofidis for double the money basically. And they gave him he could pick, you know, his friends, his his teammates, so, pick several of those. And it started off well, but yeah, it transpired that they had they had a kind of sleeping pill and drinking culture. And that's not a good combination. You know, even one thing. One of those dumb two accesses is bad, but they'd be on training camps, you know, in winter, this is how Vandenberg got hooked in the winter of 98. You know, they'd be it'd be bored you know, you do your training in the sun somewhere in Spain and then a radical Philip go mom, who I think one gateway will give himself. This strong, strapping Frenchman, you know, said why don't you take this and we'll have some drinks and what happens is you kind of you have a euphoric high. That's beyond you know, extreme drunkenness. You know, often you don't remember what you do when you're on under the influence of still not an alcohol, you know? And they go out partying or they're still the team campervan. And it's kind of thing you wouldn't believe it happened then, let alone now. Carlton Reid 11:28 So what is Stilnoct? It's in your book loads. So just tell us what Stilnoct is. Andy McGrath 11:34 It's a sleeping pill with various different brand names. I actually think Anglophone listeners might know it better as Ambien. I think that's alright. Okay. Yes. Australian kind of version of it. Yes, it's a sleeping pill. And you know, normally, I think it's used for insomniacs. And if you, you take one you wait 20 minutes, and it should pretty much knock you out. But they will take festivals, you know, handfuls at the very least. And if you resist if you fight the urge to sleep with alcohol, then you you push through to this strange blankness and euphoric high. And David Miller also has some stories, I think in his, his autobiography of strange things, and I'm the influence, you know. And, you know, it's kind of a reminder also, that professional cyclists, young freshmen, cyclists are very suggestible. They're, maybe not quite all of them fully formed as adults, you know, when they turn someone like Vandenbroucke turn pro, at 19. He was more brought up in the sporting culture than really, as a human being, as an app was an adult human being it and kind of influenced by that. So they're very fragile. And that's the other thing, you know, we've covered it. So there was a lacking duty of care, you know, in terms of the management and, you know, they seem to know what was going on, but they didn't do much about it really like they, they hired a psychologist to do a to have a talk with with the riders who basically laughed him out of the room. So you know, hindsight is 2020, but it was not a good team for Benbrook to band with a good culture. Carlton Reid 13:21 Andy, let's let's dig into you, because you've written this book. And we will we'll we'll talk about it, tonnes coming up. But this is before your time in effect, certainly before your time as a journalist you've started working from what I can see from your LinkedIn profile. You started working for Cycling Weekly. And then you became the head of Rouleur, which many people wouldn't want men will know both both titles of course. But this is in effect before your time. Was this before your were You were you like a big cycling fan? From a you know, a youth? Andy McGrath 14:00 Yeah, I mean, whenever its heyday was before my time in terms of cycling fandom, I really got into it, you know, the Lance Armstrong years 2002 was the year that I you know, discovered this fantastic and strange and exotic sport. And I you know, I did come across Vanderbrouke but by then he was really really on the down slide you know the downfall. I do remember his 2003 Tour of Flanders at the time you know, I remember it. It being this remarkable comeback story where you know this guy who was ranked outside the top 500 in in the UCI standings came second in the tour Flanders out of nowhere. But you know, he was kind of the figure of fun the kind of the fallen hero then. But yeah, he was kind of trying to see I didn't think much about him when I was at cycling weekly as a staff writer and then you know, joining ruler like, later on I to my first book was about Tom Simpson. I I published back in 2017 lovely kind of mix of contemporary photographs and stories from those who know Thompson best with Rapha, you know, one of their first books. And I was very fortunate that won the sports book of the year prize that year, which was a huge boon. Yes. Carlton Reid 15:22 What did you do with 30 grand Andy? Andy McGrath 15:25 I bought a Colnago Carlton, which possibly wasn't seeing us, I don't like to ride it in, you know, winter, or spring, sometimes autumn. So, you know, in the UK, I don't ride a bike to get too messy. And then that really leaves you two or three good months of cycling. So that was, that was my dream bike, you know, when I was a teenager that that was a bike. But funnily enough, that was a brand that I saw in all the cycling magazines, and I obviously, cycling journalists are not the best paid people in the world, sorry to disappoint their any young listeners. But that was, I mean, that was a life changing amount of money for me. So I did go ahead and bought a Kona Argo. You know, that was the that was the main thing and the rest went boringly in the savings. Carlton Reid 16:11 Now, I kind of threw that in there a to be rude, and see what you say. And so you know, is it wind, wind? And so on? No, it's a bike. Okay, great. But also, that was a big deal to win that, that, yeah, that's a big cash amount. And that's a big deal to win the William Hill sports book of the year well done on on that. You're basically your your, your, your, you've been writing about people who were from a different era, in effect. So these these are these are almost not united to me, Tom Simpson is isn't a contemporary, obviously. But Frank Vandenbroucke is certainly somebody I would be very, very well well aware of when I was, you know, in into, in writing about cycle sport I was, he was around at that point. So you're writing about people in effect from from from history. So you're almost a historian, not just, you know, not just a biographer, you're digging into past history, Andy McGrath 17:13 I never really thought about it like that, that's an interesting way of putting it maybe I should put historian on my LinkedIn profile. It feels like quite recent history, though. Carlton Reid 17:22 It really isn't, you know, when you look at this, this is 25 years, that's a good time away, you know, for for somebody to still be talked about, and for books to be written, etc. That's, that's, that's a federal what it is history. Andy McGrath 17:36 That's also what I like, because, you know, in a way, you know, Vandenbrouke, and Simpson both have, have had books written about them already. But I had the kind of maybe the naive hunch, which I would have told my publishers that I can get new stories, you know, there's more things to be said, by different people, which I which, which I believed in, you know, turned out to be true. You know, there's, there's deeper perspective says revisionism to be done, there's new things to be discovered. And, to be honest, I think I've found with, with slightly older people, you know, when you're talking about the people around Simpson and Vandenberg, and in general, and in cycling there, they've lived long lives, you know, so they have more more stories, more life, experience, more more regrets, you know, more successes. But they also, yeah, that somehow they're just that appeals to me, you know, they, they're certainly more open, generally speaking. You know, compared to, for example, let's say, if I was trying to write the, the biography of Matthew Vanderpool who, who won the Tour, Flanders, you know, very recently, there will be a whole circle of people around him that comparatively, it will be very close, very hard to get close to him. And very hard to get intriguing things now, you know, in 10 years time, maybe it'd be a different story. So I think that plays as a kind of advantage in a way to be going back rather than rather than always working with, you know, present champions, Carlton Reid 19:14 the people you've written about in their books are clearly flawed heroes. So both both legendary, both died, that that kind of helps if you're going to be a biographer, when somebody is no longer here in many respects, but they're both flawed. So So is that something that naturally attracts a biographer because if you if you're floored by de facto you're kind of more interesting. You know, you're you're you're there's there's chinks in that armour. There's the stuff that a journalist stroke historian can get their teeth into. And most sports people tend to be kind of flawed anyway, you know, there's many psychological studies which show that you know that the absolute top achievers have had some sort of formative bad experience in in their earlier life, which is then forced them to become these, these super men in terms of you know, male sport. So is that something that attracts you the fact that these are flawed heroes you can you can really talk about a flawed here and more than somebody who's squeaky clean. Andy McGrath 20:34 Well, firstly, I think we're all flawed. You're no one's perfect. But the Yes, I completely see what you're saying that these these are top athletes are people who push things to the extremes who, you know, can be quite flawed or extremely flawed, you know. And that's more the thing, but it, there was no middle for Vandenbroucke things were either going fantastic or his confidence was 100%. Or it was the opposite, you know, there seem to be, you know, they will see a sixth gear or a neutral with him. And I think we're all drawn to, to people who push limits that regular human beings wouldn't normally you know, push. Who wouldn't, you know, we we wouldn't want to take you know, 10 sleeping pills, and then down some glasses of wine on a night out, but so there's a kind of, I think there's a slightly vicarious fascination sometimes. But Vanderburgh was also I wouldn't say he was escaping from something, you know, a kind of traumatic incident in his childhood, but it's definitely worth noting that his father was his uncle. He was part of a second dynasty. So his uncle was dubbed the John Louis mercs as Frank would be. Sean Luke, that's right. Race for Persia had some great results. Never quite lived up to that moniker, who Ken and his father who was older than John Luke. So John's brother, John Jack. He was on the cusp of being a pro site because he just signed his his contract. When hit, their father died and he became guardian to John Luke, and John Paul. His brothers, his younger brothers, so his history was snatched away from him before he could do anything about it, and he had to he had to sell off his his father's Frank's grandfather's his basins and toilets and sinks because he was a kind of plumber handyman to shut down the business. So there was a kind of element of his Frank's Father John Jack being being a real driving force for positive and for negative through his formative years, you know, he pushed him so hard, you know, he would, he would follow training with a stopwatch praise was kind of few and far between shows of shows of kind of love work, not not regular at all. And, you know, Frank felt that sometimes you've treated too much as a cyclist and not enough as a son you know, as a as a person. And they had, you know, they had fallings out throughout Frank's life. And, you know, there was also a depression that John Jack had. Or John Paul, maybe it was actually his younger brother. And Frank had that too. So there's a kind of there's a, there's a kind of site genetic, I think, vulnerability to two of, you know, mental health problems that was on show here. So there's that extreme too. And this is what I kind of also find fascinating about not just pro cyclists, but people in general, athletes in general, that when we see them, just seeing when we see them in the Tour de France or tour Flanders, whatever, we're seeing 1% of their life, you know. And for Frank, you know, when he was on the bike, that was a kind of safe place, really, when things are going well. That was his refuge. And it was really like when he wasn't on the bike when he was by himself. And you know, he couldn't be by himself, really, he loved being around people need to be around people to be supervised sometimes. But when he was alone, that was when the problem started, when he had time to think or to do certain misdemeanours or wrong things. That was a problem. And people don't think about that, you know that. Everything really needs to be going well, and in the 99% of your life outside of the bike pace for the bike race to go well. Carlton Reid 24:46 So you mentioned father, son relationship stuff there, which can reminded me that when I was looking at the emails of when we've interacted before, and when you were editor of Rouleur, you actually published I'm getting more into you about, you actually published a ride of my son of coming back from China, in Rouleur, and this is now four or five years back when he did that ride and you, you, you published an account of that ride. But you were with Rouleur for about five years, four years editor? Andy McGrath 25:23 yeah, yeah, every year for nine years and I was here to for five years, you know, which was that was a dream. That was a dream, you know, I was in my mid 20s When I became editor, and I just loved hearing their stories where I'd actually been at cycle sport, which is part of cycling weekly part a part of that IPC Media Group, you know, 15 years ago, that was where I was kind of under under the wing of Ed Pickering, who, who's now the Rouleur editor, you know, I was around all these great writers like Lionel Birnie, and, you know, just learning from them, you know, either by by osmosis or by asking stupid questions, which is a kind of great way to learn. But I've really found I was drawn to longer form storytelling, you know, articles, over 2000 words, long interviews, you know, two, three hours sometimes or, you know, spending a whole day or, or, you know, to with a pro cyclist to really, truly get under their skin, you know, because that's also the media landscape in increasingly at the moment, sometimes, you're given 20 minutes, 25 minutes in a hotel lobby, to write a long feature that's supposed to you know, be chapter and verse about the cyclist. And that's not you know, that's not sufficient. I really was kinda like an entry kind of opened the doors you know, ruler when you said you with ruler that kind of had a special effect, they knew you were gonna do a very thorough, well researched, well written job, which I think really helped. And this is also the last landscape we're in that was, you know, I joined over 10 years ago, and slightly magazines, were more plentiful, were more more profitable. And I still read paper, by the way, I'd never read a Kindle course. And I'm, I'm kind of 35 going on 65 I just like, you know, I'm looking at a bookcase with about 200 books right now. And the same goes for magazines, I just, I'm a magazine guy. And I don't see that changing. And I'm kind of proud of that, because I'm slightly scared that in even in 10 years, Time Magazine might go the way of a vine on and be a collector's item when it really shouldn't be Carlton Reid 27:42 well, Cycling Weekly is older than Liège–Bastogne–Liège. So that was that was 1891. So that presumably, has has a place in the market, almost guaranteed a lot of the other magazines, maybe not so much, and ruler has a place in that is long form. It is something that, you know, the pro riders as well as cycle sport fans will love and look up to because it does go into immense detail and great care, and the quality of the paper, all that kind of stuff. So it's I guess, it's the magazines, in the middle, that that fall between those two kind of different models that are going to suffer. Andy McGrath 28:28 Perhaps, you know, the Rouleur owner told me a few years ago that there was there was going to be survival of the fittest and you know, he's turned out to be right. I think it's also the care you know, the photography and in rural areas, you know, top top notch I think people like that baby surprise, you know, sometimes have little feedback I got as editor, you know, that I could just see the, you know, often the subscription numbers rising and you see the sales figures and I like to think there's a very happy silent majority. And maybe the numbers pull that out that, you know, some people on social media will either go on there to say how fantastic something is, or how appalling it is or that their magazine never arrived, you know, and that's fine, you know, but that's, that's the world we live in. But I'm not even sure about cycling weekly, I've got a huge attachment to that magazine sentimentally. But it could be that that ends up being being an online only presence in 10 years time or you know five years time and I really hope that isn't the case. But that more and more people are reading things on their phones or their tablets. So you know, papers printed so as a find its its place you know, but realised yet definitely one for the connoisseur. Um, and we do crazy thing crazy fun things. You know, I remember taking a crew of photographers and writers to Paris-Roubaix, which is my favourite race. Because Because I said next year we're going to do a whole edition of Rouleur just around Paris-Roubaix. And we designed it with a kind of cobblestone font. And we kind of you know, each story was a sector basically and we did it you know, we were there for a week. We worked bloomin hard. And I think we saw six sectors on the day, which for goes from south to north, took some driving that pushed the limits of the highway code. But it was you know, we, we just had carte blanche to do pretty wild things like you know, we had a Gonzo writer called Mort not bow, who was Danish, who, who who divided opinion, you know, but I've never seen anyone write like that in cycling media, let alone sports media like and he always got the interview, he always ingratiated himself with the biggest names in cycling, you know, and that's what I loved was like different styles make make a magazine, for example, you know, Morton was meant to Morton and Jakob, who we call the crazy Danes is right of geography in a combo for several years, so we're meant to spend two hours with Lance Armstrong in the height of his, you know, scandalous air, I think was 2013 2014. And they ended up spending two or three days I played golf with him, you know, and it was just, yeah, like, the one thing about Rouleur that we wanted to change was that to make it not seem so stuffy or serious, because because we were having a lot of fun making it and we all love cycling, and there's a lot of, you know, humour to be had with it. You know, you might look at the black and white photographs. And you know, think it's been ernest but you know, we tried to change that every now and then. It's Carlton Reid 32:01 clearly it was it was founded in a party in a Guy Andrews but partly with Simon Mottram of a Rapha, so it's like, A, in some ways, like a Rapha, journal it had that certain had that, you know, in the early days, certainly had that Rapha you know, aesthetic. And, and power to its elbow for having that aesthetic, because Simon, you know, absolutely went in it, I can say this into the veins of cycling at that time with with with, you know, a very beautiful magazine. Andy McGrath 32:40 Yeah, he was, you know, he was pivotal to its founding like, along with Guy who, who was the founder, you know, they they saw they saw something different. And they, you know, they put in the money in the effort fearing that no one would buy that first issue which now goes for hundreds on eBay. And, you know, in many ways, it was similar to I think Jacque Waterlase courir magazine in the 50s and 60s, you know, that style and that aesthetic and you know, Guy didn't want any reviews. He wanted to show the cycling that you know, that he loved that also a child with the Rapha aesthetic and their values. And basically, the Rouleur blueprint that he laid out in those first issues is still what Rouleur is, you know, it's you know, in depth interviews, it's photography with a difference. And you ever heard is actually coming up for nearly 20 years. I think it'll be in a couple of years time. And Carlton Reid 33:42 Rapha is 20 years old this year. So that makes me feel old. Because now, I was the first person to report on Rapha's founding on in would have been, it would have been online, I would I probably did a story on bikebiz.com on this, you know, strange aesthetics based, cycled clothing manufacturer, you know, coming in from the advertising world. So I broke the story of Rapha coming in into cycling, and then now it's that 20 years or so their current PR you know, emails me and says, Oh, would you like to do a story on on Rapha being 20 It's like, oh my god, they're 20 and I did a story on them, you know, and it doesn't feel 20 years away. So it's history, as well. So we're kind of coming full circle on on history there. Now on on LinkedIn, you actually say you're one of your career highlights is actually writing for Bicycling. So what why was that a career highlight highlight? Andy McGrath 34:50 Did I say that? Oh, that's good. I just I just wanted to write for you know, one of the tops like a magazine. I've been seeing it all my life. You know, when I went freelance two years ago, that was basically my chance to write for whoever I wanted. And yeah, I'm a fellow fellow news. Now fellow went online. So I just saw this kind of this prestige of writing for for an American publication who, who I always thought, you know, did some really good journalism. And they do. I mean, it's most rigorous fact checking process I've ever had, and they did some beautiful photography, it was a long profile of Peter Sagan in his retirement. Yeah, and I went to Slovakia to see, you know, his family with old friends. And I went to Spain to interview him. And it kind of felt like old school journalism, you know, also that they back you to do that, you know, both in terms of time, word count, and paying expenses. Carlton Reid 35:56 And paying, because that's why I like writing for American magazines is they pay five times more than any British magazine. Andy McGrath 36:06 Yeah, I'm not sure if we should be advertising that this is true. Yeah, saying the Americans taking out lucrative stores. But no, absolutely. Like, that's the thing that I'm not sure why it's five times more. So I understand, you know, the, the kind of living costs, generally speaking, in the US in cycling friendly pockets is probably higher. So, so they were charging more, but five times more. You know, word rates for journalists, and in cycling identity have changed for 20 years, you know, since Rapha's inception, which is kind of sad. It's more of a labour of love than it ever was, and it was still a labour of love 20 years ago. But yeah, like the bicycling and you know, writing for cycling class I've written for basically every Anglophone cycling title in my not so young career now I'm 35. And it's just a pleasure, you know, that something that you know, the teenage me will be super proud of, and you know, that, don't me, it's, it's still proud of, you know, it's something really nice to go in my bookshelf. And it's always new stories and new angles, and well, not new sci fi magazines, really. But I kind of live in hope that I can keep doing that mainly around cycling, but I am you know, one slightly sad thing is that I'm trying to diversify slightly and you know, write about different sports, as well as cycling. Carlton Reid 37:39 I see you on art substack. So that's really diversifying. Andy McGrath 37:45 That's not That's not for profit. That's just for me. I just wanted to ride this is, this is something that I started this year, just going to local galleries and doing short, short reviews, you know, with just to learn about art, and to see what I like what I don't like, you know, I always, you know, I've kind of thought that modern art is a bit pretentious, but I've never really been to see that much. So I thought it could be fun. And it's proven to be fun. But the irony is that my my work deadlines are kind of impinging on my art reviews to the point that I haven't posted anything in about two months, but I will soon for my 20 substack followers. No, it's just fine. You know, you can live in deadlines. And with a bit of stress for so long that it's a nice kind of thing to try to do to, you know, flex some different writing muscles, but also learn about something totally away from sport, which is really the thing that I love. Carlton Reid 38:49 So I want to dig further into that level of cycling and into God is dead, your book. But right now I'd like to go across to my colleague David, who will give us a short ad break. David Bernstein 39:06 This podcast is brought to you by Tern Bicycles. Like you, the folks at Tern are always up for a good outdoor adventure by bike— whether that's fishing, camping, or taking a quick detour to hit the trails before picking up the kids from school. 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Carlton Reid 40:24 So we are back with Andy McGrath and Andy is the well as he's been telling us in the the before the ad break that he's been telling us about his career trajectory through cycling into into now doing an art substack even for the for the fun of it and the hell of it and the learning of it. Which Which sounds fantastic, because I should do that too. I should learn new stuff. But the thing we started this podcast with was with the the anniversary coming up to 25 years since since Frank Vandenbroucke and we can we call him VDB Do you think we can we can really Yeah. Yeah. Or should we say Frank goes to Frank because really it is it's like it's a it is actually an unknown nickname for other people in Belgium isn't is not not just something that's pertinent to him. Andy McGrath 41:23 That's right. There's lots of bands you know something? Yeah, Vanda Carlton Reid 41:27 something. Okay. So VDB we can we can go with that, as we kind of use a shorthand gumming up. So your book 2002. This came out, and he and it's the rise and fall of Frank Vandenbroucke cycling's great wasted talent is the subhead to God is dead. Now God is dead is clearly a Nietzsche reference. Also a reference to when he was coming up when when Frank was coming up through the sport, lots of people treated him as a god. And then in his autobiography, he talks about not being a god, but the very fact that he's saying he's not a God means kind of other people were saying he was a god. So that's, that's a hell of a provocative title for a book. Andy Yeah, absolutely. Andy McGrath 42:25 I just correct you there. It came out in 2022. If it came out in 2002, I would have been 14 and Carlton Reid 42:33 I'm sorry, sorry. 20222. Sorry. Yeah. No, that would have been deep military. Yes. Yes. Yes. Sorry, kind of literal, you Andy McGrath 42:39 know, the spoiler alert as you pointed out earlier as sports which makes it a kind of backwards who done it or you know, what happened to his life when you know, beside nd and also, you know, his friend contemporary or when I went on to wrote a song called Cody is dead. So I just thought it was too there are too many, you know, perfect similarities to not have that title. It does, I suppose it you know, catches the eye, as well, as you know, telling you what happened. And it intrigues and it should stop people in their tracks, you know, make them think, you know, who was this? Cyclists because most people most passing people in bookshops, for example, wouldn't have heard of Frank Vandenbrouke, some people at the time, you know, very briefly, he he was on the cover of pro cycling in the UK, for example, he was in the top three of the world rankings, he was going to be the biggest things since sliced bread on 11 speed. And then and this is the thing that half the book is really the rise of a sporting talent, exceptional sporting promise, despite all his problems, you know, that he had the human for example, he was involved in a in a crash with a rally car when he was four years old. Of all things, you know, in the country lanes where he grew up, and that meant that after a long, long recovery, his left leg was always two centimetres shorter and thinner, and the right leg which you would think will be problematic for for a pro cyclist and it proved to be problematic. You know, often during his career, he was always fighting these knee injuries. But anyway, he he rose up at a time when the stars were older, you know, they were 30 Plus, and they were quite bland in comparison to him. You know, we had Indurain, Rominger, Museuw, and Frank Vandenbrouke was this 20 year old counterpoint who said good things to all the Belgian media and was handsome, you know, he was good looking kid. But he raised with such panache. And he won unusually early unusually often. And for someone that yeah, when he was a junior, he won half his races which is ridiculous for someone who who wasn't a great sprinter either, you know, he he had to attack really to win most of the time. Carlton Reid 45:14 So it's an awful lot of is not just legacy but at the time was he just looked so beautiful on a bike I mean there's there's a little bit of you know, homo-eroticism going on there but he's just he just looked wonderful with you know those those as you're saying those those the legs being shorter and thinner. I hadn't actually noticed that but it just it looks so beautiful on a bicycle. He's just like the dream rider. Andy McGrath 45:42 Yeah, and that's the way that we the most of us wish we could you know, pedal that's like pedalling and in a dream. It's that the French word souplesse. It kind of describes the way that he pedalled you know, with, with no, either body barely moved, didn't move when the back was still when he kind of cycled it was like ballerina esque if that is the right word for a male ballerina probably is. And it was so incongreous, too, because his legs was so thin. You know, they were like pipe cleaners. Really. They weren't particularly muscular. But they were tanned and yeah, like it. It is funny about cycling isn't all Pro Cycling that sometimes it we don't just admire the best riders. With my style, we My grace. For example, I still remember this Russian writer called Mikhail Ignatieff who won a few Olympic goals on the track. And he didn't win any anything of any note, you know, in Tour de France, all the all the big leagues of road racing, but his pedal stroke was just gorgeous, just like you know. I imagine there was no human around years of you know, Russian training in the Velodrome but Carlton Reid 46:55 so that you're definitely getting back to that kind of Rapha aesthetic which, which Simon Mottram tapped into, you know that it's not about always winning. It's sometimes about just looking good and being stylish and having panache. You know, that Tom Simpson also taps into that with his suits and his writing style. Andy McGrath 47:17 Yeah, absolutely. Like, it's not about winning always. It's about how you make people feel. It's about how you bring the fans along with you all, all the media. And there's some riders in their 30s. Now, their favourite cyclists was Frank Vandenbrouke. That 999 the age pastorally. Age is the race of their dreams. I think I'll have an arson who's a former Belgian champion, said he watched it 200 times on replay I feel it was your bet. The great Belgian bike racer, idolise Vandenbrouke, that and there's something it wasn't just results like we can all have, well, not all of us, pro cyclists can have a page on Pro Cycling stats or whatever results. Software, you use that, that shows you what you've won, but it doesn't say anything for how you want it, you know, like with, with daring, long range attacks, like Vandenberg sometimes did, or what you said to the media afterwards, you know, giving them great quotes. And that's part of his charm. And you know, why people wrote books about him in Belgium, although that said, you know, if, if he hadn't been a kind of fatal hero, if he hadn't died so young, it would, it would be a happy a different story. Because Carlton Reid 48:37 there is that Amy Winehouse, you kind of mentioned that, you know, that Marilyn Monroe that kind of that here, who's a die young they stay heroes. So there's there's that element of and Africa somewhere else in your book where you talk about how people couldn't have imagined him getting older anyway. You know, there was that that there was almost a fatalism there. That this is somebody who is, you know, the Icarus figure, you know, burning bright climbing high, that will probably come a cropper like almost wasn't a surprise to many people, the way his his life ended. Unknown Speaker 49:15 Absolutely. I think sometimes that's it's not easy to say that, you know, 10 years after he's died when, you know, after the fact. And the problem was that he had all these issues, he had depression briefly and he became addicted to, you know, cocaine and amphetamines. But he will always find a way out of it that I think a lot of people thought that he would eventually find a way out of his problems, you know, the 10 years from the age when the end of his life in 2009 We were just roller coaster teaser kind of cliche like, but he would always drag himself out. So that's the sadness and and they were under a lot of pain. April, he said to me, there was some regret, you know, in the quotes that his agent pulled the gator that said, when it came to his drug addiction that they were, he compared it to a kind of sinking ship and said that, you know, when they were bailing the water out, they should really be plugged in trying to plug the hole which was quite a kind of poignant quote like I thought so and so one more thing, too We, of course it gets into sad tragic territory, but you know, it's not the kind of misery misery fest biography No, and I found them bro was loved by so many people and charmed and joked around with so many people like, he was a great impressionist, he, he was like a bouncy teenager, really, at the age of 35, still, you know, like, messing around with his roommate, and putting toothpaste on the bathroom mirror. And he had this kind of universal boyishness that people found it very hard to be mad at him, even when he did, you know, quite bad things or selfish things or acted vainly, which he could do. So there's, you know, at the core of it, it goes much beyond the cyclists into this human being who could be lovable, but can also be very frustrating and, you know, do some bad things. Carlton Reid 51:26 So the book is, yes, it's not, you're right. It's not all doom and gloom. But there's an awful lot in there. You can't get away from this about addiction, doping clearly. And then mental health care or lack thereof, in in, in not just in cycling, but in probably in society as a whole. Yeah, like, I Unknown Speaker 51:46 kind of think that. If we look back, even 10 years alone, 20 years, the duty of, of care for professional athletes was really lacking. You know, I think it's really sad that there were top level riders not just Vandenberg, who were going to psychologist or psychiatrist, but we're keeping it strong, you know, because it was seen as so shameful, you know. And to me that shy, that taps into the old school soccer mentality of, you know, the way they used to be the way they used to train, you know, do 300k Drink very little, eat very little. Ride harder, don't complain. And that could work for some people. But that is not a caring way to look up to most people. You know, that's, and that can come back to by many athletes, you know, and I think that's what happened. Vandenbrouke's psychologist probably helped to help him to live longer. You know, that's what he said in his his autobiography. Actually, Vandenbrouke Carlton Reid 52:52 That's Jeff Browers? Unknown Speaker 52:54 Yeah, exactly. And, in fact, he was probably an early kind of adopter of this help that he needed, you know, not just for, you know, the cycling was one thing, but they were trying to cure his kind of addiction problems and is show him that he he was loved, you know, even though he felt abandoned often. And that's the crux of it, that, you know, this need to be loved that I kind of thing most of, well, pretty much all all of us have, whether it's conscious or subconscious. And he always felt unloved or abandoned, despite, you know, the obvious legion of fans that he had and everything else. And that was a tragedy, there are human tragedy. Carlton Reid 53:37 So in your in your book, there's a kind of murder mystery, and to the book, murder, mystery, suicide, whatever. So Jeff, Browers was the psychologist about it, he basically told you that he thinks it was it was it was suicide, because he was, as you've just said that he needs people around and he was quite alone in that grubby hotel room in Senegal. But then other people, family obviously blame the people he was with and don't want to have that association. With with suicide, you don't really come you don't come to a conclusion because you can't really come to a conclusion, especially as it happened in Senegal, where it's kind of difficult to come to any conclusion anyway. But there's, there's various people give their their opinions weighing all that up. What's your opinion? Unknown Speaker 54:40 I don't have to give one you know, like, if it isn't clear, factually, and I can't be certain, but I've laid out you know, that's the job of the biography is to talk to everyone that was close to Vandenbrouke around him at the time. He was actually you know, basically there and include what they said Um, but no. I think that there could be something very well and what you have for hours says, you know, the psychologists who, you know, he was a man who spent hours with him and in that in that room I can see why he would say that. But one of the great, one of the great, strange things about this is, is that mystery like that, you know, Vandenbrouke had never even been to Africa, and he decided to go to Senegal, ye. And this filmic ending, you know, where, whereas you say, a prostitute was the last person to see him alive. So maybe he wanted it to be, you know, clouded in some kind of doubt that it could never be be definitive. But either way, you know what, like, whichever way that he died, it was pretty tragic that that he died, you know, and he's not the only one from that era, either. He had Pantani, you had Jose Maria Jimenez, you know, and I think it's, it's partly a kind of symptom of the doping culture that what they were taking to perform in bike races made it much easier to get into recreational drugs. And both of those things, mess with your mind and your body. And probably your, your, your soul, you know, the core of who you really feel you are and what you're doing, you know, whether you think it's cheating or not that moral maze, it, it can't be easy. I'm there must have been a hot a horrible time to be a pro cyclist. Carlton Reid 56:41 People think of these things doping is a black and white issue. Yet, there's a spectrum here, you know, is I mean, the UCI classifies too many coffees, too many espressos as doping. But, you know, four or five, okay. You know, marginal gains, you know, all these things, which which you can legally do, and yet you somehow trip over a line, if you take this other thing. And the other thing is, is meant to be this evil thing. And that's clearly you know, the wrong thing to do. But vitamin supplements and you know, creatine, all of these things are performance enhancing, why did they not get the stigma that EPO get? So it's a spectrum and addicted, it's very difficult to say this as a black and white thing, when there are many things that can make you better on a bike, including EPO, but then you know, just your energy gel makes you better on a bike, should we be adding energy gels, it's there's very little nuance gets into it talking about doping, it's just black and it's white. Yeah, Unknown Speaker 57:57 when really if you're saying is that it's basically shades shades of grey, you know that the modern game does you're in the peloton is ketones, which are not banned, but they seem to be ethically questionable. And my rudimentary understanding of the science around it is also that no one knows how, how it can affect the career in a few years time or five years time that we might be seeing some writers already suffering from not using them in the right way or overusing them. Well, Carlton Reid 58:35 my wife is a is a diabetes doctor. So she knows about ketones, and she knows about insulin, as well. And insulin was, was clearly one of the things that Frank used to basically say he was going to kill himself and he's going to use insulin to do so. So potentially that was, it's very hard to trace insulin as if you're going to kill yourself with insulin. So potentially, that's, that's, yeah, you're gonna kill yourself insulin is a pretty good way of doing it. Andy McGrath 59:11 Yeah. And you know, why would you why would you take that to Senegal? Or how would you source it? You know, what? He wasn't a diabetic, you know, so. Yeah, I won't give away you know, the ending or, you know, what everyone said about the ending, but, you know, several people were pointing towards suicide, certainly in the book, but yeah, like, I just going back to the grey area of crime doping. I just hope it's a bit more nuanced. Now. The way that people regard dope is like I even think that you know, 10 years ago. It it's really hard. It's very hard, isn't it? Because they have cheated. They have done something wrong, and they've done it knowingly, you know, in probably 99% of cases. Despite the numerous They can excuse. Carlton Reid 1:00:02 Yes, there have been quite a few good ones. False twin Unknown Speaker 1:00:10 Yeah, false twin, pigeon pie, weeks from a Colombian grandmother. It's got Carlton Reid 1:00:17 I bought it for my dog. Okay. Unknown Speaker 1:00:20 Yeah, well, that was bingo. So on the one hand, they are not above appropriate, you know, the rider. They are number one, you know, anything that turns up in their body knowingly or unknowingly, if they're positive, that's that's on them, you know, that's how it is. And I totally get that. But on the other hand, it still seems to me that the culture around doping IE, you know, the people that help them or, or facilitate, you know, people like team doctors, team managers, people in the know, people who are still in the sport, you know, nowadays seem to get away with it, pretty much, often quite, quite scot free. And that's not okay. And I've had, you know, cyclists who were pros in the 80s through to, you know, the last decade, you know, saying a similar thing, but that's a thing that needs to be changed that needs to be snuffed out like the right is kind of like the symptom of a wider problem. And of course, if we knew the answer if the UCI or Wilder knew the answer, you know, anti doping foundations famously have much smaller smaller budgets and maybe even the biggest cycling team in the world they're always fighting kind of a chasing battle they're always you know, one step behind maybe against the latest wonder drug or the kind of latest cheats but I think I can save some some confidence Pro Cycling is is cleaner now than it was in Vandenbrouke's heyday. But I also fear that it'll never be totally clean partly because of human nature partly because of the money was going up and up and partly because of this bizarre kind of will to win this drive is addiction Carlton Reid 1:02:13 Yeah, can even amateur races you know, people have been caught doping that will to win Andy McGrath 1:02:22 Yeah, I mean, that's that's sad in my opinion, you know, if you're, if you're doping to win a category three cap for race. What's the point? You know, Carlton Reid 1:02:32 do you race have you written Have you raced Unknown Speaker 1:02:38 I did a few time trials when I was up at university in York. Beautiful place to ride around there Oh, and I did someone's teenager with the Addiscombe in Croydon that's where I'm from. no great shakes, Carlton. I've never meant to be the next Frank Vandenbroucke much better at writing than riding my bike has put it that way. But Carlton Reid 1:03:08 yeah, you're a rider. Not a racer. So that that that that Colnago that you bought is something that you would ride on a nice day with no mud around so what you're writing normally what's what's if you're not running the Colnago what you're writing Andy McGrath 1:03:33 it's a time XRS I'll steel a nice bike from now not a pub bike. Unknown Speaker 1:03:38 It's a decent bike it was just it just keeps going and it gets me around town if I want to ride in the autumn or winter on the road so I'll use Quickstep used to ride it back in the day me 20 years ago you know Palpatine and all that Carlton Reid 1:03:57 which did you pick that up in your in your magazine days then is that was you kind of like you somehow acquired it back then. Andy McGrath 1:04:07 Well, the thing about me is I'm I'm not I'm no techie I'm really good people that would have seen me trying to fix a puncture back in the cycling weekly office 15 years ago would have realised that immediately now I'm there because I like riding my bike. I just to be completely honest, like I don't know much about bike tech and isn't the most interesting thing about cycling for me, you know, I'm the people that ride the bikes, you know, the pros and all their you know, differences and their opinions and personalities. That's much more interesting to me than say this bike weighs eight kilos or this carbon one weigh 7.5 But that's that's just me, you know, each have their own. Yeah, I'd much rather you know ride a bike then. do the legwork for it, you know, which is but actually need to get better at you know mechanics and changing chains and that kind of thing and maybe on a warm summer's day, I'll just practice doing Carlton Reid 1:05:13 that. That's what bike shops are for. That's my opinion. Now I'm with you. I'm with you on the I'm not fussed about technical stuff I've never really been happy writing about the technical stuff doesn't excite me writing about technical stuff or weighing things and yeah, it's the people that is all the stories that are around it that that are from me, personally. A more interesting. Andy McGrath 1:05:40 Yeah, absolutely. Like, I find it hard to rhapsodise about tech, you know, whereas I can. Yeah, like I kind of wish I was more intrigued by it, but I'm just not, that's just my personality. And the funny thing is, as a former tech magazine, Ed editor, you really you do have to slightly balance the editorial side with not keeping advertisers happy, but keeping them onside. And there was a slight tech element with Rila. But we we did it in our own way with basically treating the bike or the other kit, like a like a model, you know, hanging on trees or oversea wall, or all kinds of crazy sheets. Carlton Reid 1:06:29 So if people want to and we're now wrapping up here, Andy, if people want to get your book and be maybe getting in touch with you or find out what you're doing, where do they find you on websites on on social media? Unknown Speaker 1:06:44 They can find me on X formerly known as Twitter before Elon Musk made it even worse. Yeah, at Andy McGrath, that's a n d, why. MC Gra? So, take off the th basically for my surname. Yeah, they want to buy the book, just any online bookseller, really from from Amazon to Waterstones to Blackwell's to whoever, whoever you like, it's on there. And I'll put Carlton Reid 1:07:19 your art stack substack link in in the show notes. So people can also you know, if they're not interested in cycling, they could they could follow you for your, you know, your your opinions on Anthony Conway says Andy McGrath 1:07:31 the next step comes from me being an expert, what's your, what do you think? Carlton Reid 1:07:39 Well, I guess if you're not into the techie side, you know, and you're just looking at maybe just the people behind these things, rather than the art itself? I don't know. Is that do they? Are you looking at the art itself? What's going to interest you? Andy McGrath 1:07:51 I am mainly looking at the art itself being and that ties into their lives and the era they were in. It's a bit of everything really, you know, if it's modern art that I'm likely to question, you know, how did this make me feel? You know, what do I feel? What does this elicit in me kind of understand how much work is took or, you know, the literal art artistry behind it? That's one element. But, you know, I just went to see Frank Howell back. He's at the Courtauld in London. He's basically the last surviving artist from that Lucien Freud. Francis Bacon set in the 1950s. And I thought it was fantastic and but it's only black and white because he didn't have the money for pain in 1950s, which I've become a pain which is also an insight into a different world, you know, that I'm very fortunate to not be in you know, post World War reconstruction. But anyway, we we digress. Any followers are welcome. Carlton Reid 1:09:02 Yes, no, I'll put that link in. For sure. And to your other things. So Andy, thank you so much for for talking to us on me, us. Andy McGrath 1:09:11 Thank you. Absolute pleasure. Carlton Reid 1:09:15 And that's it for today's show. Thanks for listening to Episode 351 of the spokesmen podcast brought to you in association with Tern bicycles, show notes and more can be found at the-spokesmen.com As I mentioned earlier, the next episode, dropping real soon, will be a chat with cycling writer, Laura Laker. But meanwhile, get out there and ride ...

In our second Arrivée episode of the Classics season, Daniel Friebe & Richard Abraham deliver their verdict on the 108th edition of the Tour of Flanders or Ronde van Vlaanderen. With Wout van Aert's spring campaign ruined by a crash in Dwars door Vlaanderen on Wednesday, the Belgian's long-time bête noire, Mathieu van der Poel, started the race as the hot favourite. Find out whether MvdP could become the first reigning world champion since Peter Sagan in 2016 to ride to Flanders glory in the rainbow jersey - or who among the cast of challengers, led by Mads Pedersen & Matteo Jorgenson, managed to thwart him. buycycle Arrivée is supported by buycycle. Visit buycycle.com to buy and sell used bikes safely and securely. Follow us on social media: Twitter @cycling_podcast Instagram @thecyclingpodcast The 11.01 Cappuccino Our regular email newsletter is now on Substack. Subscribe here for frothy, full-fat updates to enjoy any time (as long as it's after 11am). MAAP The Cycling Podcast x MAAP collection is available now. Go to maap.cc to see the full MAAP range. Friends of the Podcast Sign up as a Friend of the Podcast at thecyclingpodcast.com to listen to more than 100 exclusive episodes. Our latest, four-part KM0 special, ‘Classicissima: Springtime in Sanremo' is available on the Kilometre 0 for Friends of The Cycling Podcast feed now.  The Cycling Podcast is on Strava The Cycling Podcast was founded in 2013 by Richard Moore, Daniel Friebe and Lionel Birnie.

 Bicycle Talk. Episode 387 March  20th 2024  Ron's Rant: Fox News  Bogus report “How e-bikes are exploding and killing people”.   And a heart felt comment to Peter Sagan.  On a positive side: Classics!  March 16, 2024, Milan-San Remo  Crazy finish.  And, A New Study Proves E-Bikes Are Pretty Damn Great for the Future of […]

During his eight years in the WorldTour, Paul Voss rode for some of the most successful teams in the sport, including Milram, Endura Racing, and Bora-Argon 18. In that time, he raced in multiple Grand Tours, and even wore the polka dot jersey for a stage of Tour De France in 2016. But in that same year, he was pushed off the Bora team when Peter Sagan signed on and brought several of his teammates with him. At 30, Paul retired from road racing, became a director sportif for Wiggins, did some cycling commentary for German TV, and put all his savings into starting a junior development team. Now, he's found a second racing career in gravel. Last year, he won the Traka 200 and placed 3rd at the European Championships, and has his eye on Unbound this year. Paul sat down with Payson in Girona to talk about how his fitness is better now than it was in the WorldTour, how he thinks gravel World Champion Matej Mohorič will fare at this year's Unbound, and stirring controversy with his podcasts. Instagram: @theadventurestacheYouTube: Payson McElveen

Tento denný podcast, vytváraný s pomocou umelej inteligencie, ponúka unikátny a efektívny spôsob, ako sa dozvedieť o najzaujímavejších udalostiach a článkoch dňa. Umelej inteligencii sa darí analyzovať obrovské množstvo informácií z rôznych zdrojov, aby vybrala tie najrelevantnejšie a najpútavejšie obsahy pre širokú škálu poslucháčov. Každá epizóda je navrhnutá tak, aby poskytla hlboký ponor do vybraných tém, od politiky cez vedecké objavy, až po kultúrne udalosti, a to všetko podané informatívne, prístupne a bez emócií. Podcast je ideálnym spoločníkom pre zaneprázdnených ľudí, ktorí hľadajú pohodlný spôsob, aby zostali informovaní o svetovom dianí bez nutnosti tráviť hodiny čítaním rôznych zdrojov, čím poskytuje efektívny a príjemný spôsob, ako prijímať správy. Témy: 1. Reálna mzda na Slovensku výrazne narástla: https://www.startitup.sk/realna-mzda-na-slovensku-vyrazne-narastla-o-kolko-si-zamestnanci-prilepsili/ 2. Globsec sa po 19 rokoch neuskutoční v Bratislave. Pre Fica aj Danka bol „tŕňom v oku“: https://www.startitup.sk/globsec-sa-po-19-rokoch-neuskutocni-v-bratislave-pre-fica-aj-danka-bol-trnom-v-oku/ 3. Kočner dostane za únik správ z Threemy odškodné. Súdny dvor EÚ mu priznal zlomok sumy: https://www.startitup.sk/kocner-dostane-za-unik-sprav-z-threemy-odskodne-sudny-dvor-eu-mu-priznal-zlomok-sumy/ 4. Matovič otvorene: „V 1. kole očakávam svoj výsledok medzi polotučným a plnotučným mliekom“: https://www.startitup.sk/matovic-otvorene-v-1-kole-ocakavam-svoj-vysledok-medzi-polotucnym-a-plnotucnym-mliekom/ 5. Peter Sagan hlási návrat na cesty:https: //www.startitup.sk/peter-sagan-hlasi-navrat-na-cesty-v-maji-bude-sutazit-nedaleko-slovenska/ 6. Meta mala masívny výpadok: https://www.startitup.sk/aktualne-vypadok-sa-netykal-len-facebooku-a-instagramu/ 7. Nekonečné zápchy v okolí Bratislavy si blížia:https: //www.startitup.sk/vodici-pozor-nekonecne-zapchy-pred-bratislavou-sa-blizia-vieme-ako-sa-im-vyhnut/

Episode #429 Bike Racing in March Sunday, May 24, 2020 6:59 AM Welcome Welcome to Episode #429 of the 303 Endurance Podcast. We're your hosts Coach Rich Soares and 303 Chief Editor, Bill Plock. Thanks for joining us for another week of endurance news, coaching tips and discussion.   Show Sponsor: UCAN UCAN created LIVSTEADY as an alternative to sugar based nutrition products. LIVSTEADY was purposefully designed to work with your body, delivering long-lasting energy you can feel. Whether UCAN Energy Powders, Bars or Gels, LIVSTEADY's unique time-release profile allows your body to access energy consistently throughout the day, unlocking your natural ability to finish stronger and recover more quickly!    In Today's Show Cycling News/Updates - Moab Rocks by Jessica, Peter Sagan heart procedure; March Bike Racing in CO Triathlon News/Updates - Chilly Cheeks No Fences; Boulder Rez' Swim Course, Olympic/Paralympic contenders at Clash Miami   303 News and Updates: Moab, Check out This Spring Classic Event, Perfect Getaway   Peter Sagan undergoes heart procedure after experiencing ‘tachycardic episode'   https://www.bicyclecolorado.org/events-2/event-calendar/# Chilly Cheeks Duathlon - Fun Without Fences!   Boulder Rez' Swim Course   U.S. Olympic & Paralympic Medalists to Race 2024 Americas Triathlon Championships at CLASH Miami     TriDot Named Finalist for “App of the Year” by prestigious Sports Technology Awards   TriDot was selected by three independent panels of judges for App of the Year, Fitness & Participation, and Data & Analytics – Sports. In an extraordinarily competitive year with “STA's most nominations ever” from 5 continents, 30 countries and 50 sports, only three companies earned so many shortlistings. Notable shortlisted brands include Apple Fitness+, NBA, PGA Tour, San Francisco 49ers, ticketmaster, Ryder Cup, and The Championships at Wimbledon.  

Further homes lost in a Victorian bushfire near Ballarat; Donald Trump ordered to pay more money in a New York civil fraud case, and in cycling, doctors to monitor champion rider Peter Sagan as he chases Olympic selection in cross country.

Johan and George talk with their ex-teammate and true LEGEND of cycling, 3 time Olympic Champion Viatcheslav Ekimov. This unique conversation is pack filled with memorable stories you will not want to miss. buycycle: For a limited time you can save up to $100 on your purchase by entering code “THEMOVE” at checkout at buycycle.com AG1: Try AG1 and get a FREE 1-year supply of Vitamin D AND 5 free AG1 Travel Packs with your first purchase. Go to drinkAG1.com/THEMOVE

Johan and George talk with their ex-teammate and ex-colleague Sean Yates in the episode. The stories being told are the living proof of why Sean Yates has been nicknamed “the Animal” and why he is considered a real Legend of the sport. buycycle: For a limited time you can save up to $100 on your purchase by entering code “THEMOVE” at checkout at buycycle.com

Erwin Verveken, former professional cyclocross rider and organizer of the UCI World Gravel Championships, discusses the history and growth of the UCI Gravel Series. He explains how the series was created to provide a more diverse and competitive experience for riders, and how it has quickly gained popularity and attracted top riders from around the world. Erwin also shares insights into the qualification process, the different types of gravel courses, and the future of gravel racing. Episode sponsor: Dynamic Cyclist (TheGravelRide for 15% off) Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: Key Takeaways: The UCI Gravel Series was created to provide a more diverse and competitive experience for riders, with a variety of courses and race formats. The series has quickly grown in popularity, attracting top riders from around the world and expanding to include more events each year. Gravel racing is a unique blend of road racing and off-road riding, with courses that can vary in technicality and terrain. The UCI Gravel World Championships allows both elite riders and amateurs to compete together, creating a unique and inclusive racing experience. The series is constantly evolving, with new events being added each year and plans to expand to more countries in the future. [TRANSCRIPT] [00:00:00] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Erwin, welcome to the show. [00:00:02] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Thank you. Thank you. It's a pleasure of being here. [00:00:06] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): I'm excited to talk to you and learn more about the UCI World Gravel Championships and a little bit of the history there. But as always, I'd just love to start out with learning a little bit about you. I know you've got a, a strong history in the sport of cycling. So just a quick overview of how you got involved in the sport. **** - (): And then let's talk about how you got involved in. Kind of the event organizing side of the sport with UCI. [00:00:29] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Yeah. So I, I've been a pro rather mainly in cyclocross, uh, from 1995 till 2010. So a 16 year career in cyclocross, uh, uh, from the age of 22 to 38. And then when I retired from cycling in 2010, I started to work as a cyclocross and also a bit of model by coordinator at a lot. So lots of is a Belgian sports marketing company. **** - (): Um, uh, at that time we were, I wouldn't say small, but yeah, it's, it's, it's grown a lot in, in the last, uh, 15 years. Um, and so initially I was only doing. Cyclocross, uh, in winter and mountain bike in summer. And then gradually, uh, I got other projects and in 2011, we started to talk to the, to the UCI to, uh, well, to reform a bit, the, the masters road world championships. **** - (): So, um, yeah, everybody knows Ironman, Ironman, uh, and triathlon. You have to. Qualify somewhere in an arm and worldwide, uh, to get your ticket for the World Championships and, uh, well, the, the, the road Masters World Championships, uh, at the UCI, they were always organized in the same city in, in the same period for, for 20 years in Austria, uh, and there were some complaints of course, because the, the, yeah, always the same course, uh, the same type of riders, um, yeah, World Championships should move, uh, uh, you know, One day it should be a flat and fast race and then a race for climbers or for classical riders. **** - (): So we came with a proposal to reform it like in Ironman with the qualifier series, uh, which, which started in 2011 with seven qualifier events and then a world championships. And well, it moved from seven the next year to 20. And yeah, now for next year, it's. events. It's the biggest series we've ever had. **** - (): 2024. I mean, [00:02:26] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): curious, Erwin, when, when you expanded the qualification, the number of qualification races, did you end up expanding the number of athletes that could actually compete in the world championships for the masters? [00:02:38] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Yeah. Uh, so it has always been 25 percent per age group will qualify for the world championships. And so the results are major made up per age group. Um, and, and, uh, yeah. So from that, uh, point, uh, Uh, yeah. First year I think we had 700 drivers at the world championships. Uh, and then it grew to over a thousand thousands, 500, 2000. **** - (): And in the last few years, we are in between two and a half and 3000, which is still okay. Uh, one year we decided to lower the percentage of qualified rider from 25 to 20 because of safety. Uh, we, we got 3000 riders at the start of, uh. Of one single event on a day, uh, so the Grand Fonda World Championships, but then it was, uh, yeah, 2020, the COVID year, so, and, and, and afterwards, uh, yeah, it took some time for riders to start traveling again. **** - (): So we, we went back to 25%. And in that idea in 2019 at the end of the season in a debriefing with UCI, we proposed also to make up a similar series of gravel events. Gravel is big in the States. I think the first real gravel events date from 2005, 2006 or so. Um, and they, yeah, we saw in Europe and other continents, but mainly Europe, um, gravel has always been Uh, a bit more recreational, um, never competitive. **** - (): Um, and it's only, let's say the last five years that there's really competitive parallel events. Um, so, so yeah, and at the end of 2019, we proposed. A similar setup with the qualifier series, uh, leading up to a yearly world championships. Uh, which then, well, got postponed in 2020, 2021 because of COVID. Uh, so the, the, the first season was 2022 with 11 qualifier events. **** - (): Uh, and this year already 18. And next year 25. So yeah, it's growing very fast and especially the number of participants is growing very very fast. So um And and the big difference is in gravel in the gravel world cheers and also the gravel world championships also elite riders can participate. So Where the, the ground from the world series is mainly for masters and amateurs. **** - (): Uh, the gravel world series and the gravel world championships is, is for everybody. Uh, but still in the same concept where. In front there is a real battle amongst the best elite riders but in the back you as a recreational rider, you can also participate and if you're really fit and Keen and and also for the masters at a later age You can still qualify for the world championships and also right there together with well this year what for not more each? **** - (): Following they were all at the start So yeah, I can imagine if you if you start in the back end and you're just five minutes behind these riders Uh, at the start, uh, that it's an amazing feeling to, to be in the same race with all those top stars. [00:05:47] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, yeah, that's I remember speaking to Bruce from the Highland Gravel Classic in Arkansas, who's the the one US gravel race that's part of the UCI series this year and the coming year in 2024. And I remember walking away from that conversation with that same feeling that Despite what some people in the United States may think about, you know, high performance gravel racing, and as it may detour from their vision of a community style gravel race as people who are around the sport and like other aspects of the sport, just being able to line up at a, at a UCI event with the names you just mentioned would be a thrill of a lifetime. [00:06:27] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Yeah. I think so. Um, of course, gravel in the States, uh, is, is, is much older and has much more tradition and, uh, your biggest events are, are still bigger than, than the UCI events. Uh, our biggest event this year was 1700 and probably next year we will go over 2000, but yeah, if you speak about the real classics, uh, unbound and, and, and, and, well, you have several of them. **** - (): They are more than double than our biggest race at the moment, but I think we still have potential to grow. Um, I see that, um, what, what really excites me is that after all these events and especially after the world championships, you all, you hear all these top stars telling, Hey, this was fun, huh? Wout van Aert had big trouble, a flat tire, a crash at the world championships, but he still continued because he liked it so much. **** - (): And he yeah. Enjoyed. Riding a gravel race. So yeah, he is, by the way, my neighbor because he's living in the same city as me even. Well, if you count in miles like you do in the States, it's a bit more than a mile from where I live. And he called me and told, Hey, I want to do a UCI gravel race because I want to do the world championships this year. **** - (): So all of a sudden he was there at the Belgian qualifier event in August and then six weeks later at the world championships and he really enjoyed it. So And that's the good thing. They are pure ambassadors, not only for cycling sports in general, but also for gravel because, uh, they have a lot of fun. **** - (): Um, Valverde was there, Moritz, he said, well, it's my first gravel race I ever did, world championships. I always liked. Going off road, uh, mountain bike, but in gravel there's much more speed, it's much more fun. And, and yeah, I want to do this more next year, especially because of course he's wearing the nice rainbow jersey. [00:08:26] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): That's right. Yeah. I think it's going to be interesting to see how within the European Peloton, if it follows the U S. You know, in, in the early days of gravel as professional athletes started moving over like Ted King, for example, would dabble in it. And then I think he told some of his ex pro tour friends that, Hey, this is fun. **** - (): Plus you started to see them being able to make a career out of it. And obviously the likes of Wout van Aert is not going to leave the pro tour anytime soon, but it is interesting to think about. Riders who are later in their career, who still have power in their legs and enthusiasm in their heart to start seeing European gravel racing as a way to extend their career in a way that maybe gives them a little bit more joy than they had racing in the pro peloton after all those [00:09:16] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Yeah. No, for sure. Um, I think there are two types of writers. You have the real top stars, like Rod van Aert, like Moritz and Demi Vollering. And I'm sure they will probably do one or two events a year when it fits in their program. But their focus will never be on gravel, uh, during the season, but well, the position of the gravel world championships at the end of the road season, uh, is ideal for them to end their season. **** - (): And I'm sure that, uh, one day, uh, probably also, uh, Pogacar will be there. He was already there at the first world championships last year. but wasn't allowed from his team to take part, but he was in the, in the VIP area at the finish line. The day after he won the Tour of Lombardia, so the last classic of the season, it was on Saturday and the gravel world championships were, well, nearby. **** - (): It's only a hundred kilometer away. So, and he really enjoyed it and he said, well, I want to do this race. But, yeah, it's still, um, there's still like the feeling of, okay, this is a dangerous sport, uh, uh, you can crash, you can, yeah, whatever, and it can jeopardize your next season, but as it's at the end of the season, I don't see really a point, uh, you see some, some crashes and, and, um, Yeah, that's, that's probably part of gravel, but it's not like a major crash. **** - (): It's always in small groups. Uh, gravel is, is, is not to be compared with, with mountain bike or cyclocross. It's a, it's, it's an off road discipline, but the type of event is much more road race. Um, and that's what we also also see in the last two years. I'm having my background in cyclocross and cyclocross is very big in Belgium, but the real gravel, I know the real cyclocross specialists, like the ones who do the full season of cyclocross. **** - (): Uh, and not focus on the road. Yeah. They usually, by the end of the race, the last hour, they, they, they lose contact with the, with, with, with the, the road is, um, uh, gravel is much more a road race than it will ever be, a cyclocross or a mountain bike. It's not technical at all. Um, and, and yeah, in my opinion, it's, it's, it's for the pure. **** - (): Road specialists from the, from the spring classic said that the ones who like, uh, party rebel, we're like tour of Flanders, uh, those type of guys. They are the ones who are the real gravel specialists. [00:11:41] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. I think that makes sense. I think one thing that we've learned in racing gravel over these years is that anything can happen and it's your ability as a rider to deal with unpredictable situations. And to your point as a cyclocross racer. Every lap, there's an unpredictable situation that you have to deal with and you have to deal with nursing your bike and not being too hard on the equipment. **** - (): And there's certainly no, you know, there's no team car following you very quickly. Although in cyclocross, you can swap [00:12:09] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Yeah. You can switch bikes two times a lap. Um, and, and you can have it cleaned and everything. So, um, no, that's, that's, I think it makes. It's part of the story why it's, it's so popular because, uh, he lost 10 minutes at the world championships, but he still continued. And it's more like the epic, right? **** - (): Like you see in, uh, in Paris, uh, it's, it's kind of a survival race. Um, even though you have a lot of bad luck in the beginning, the race is never over. You can still continue. You can still make up and, and, and, uh, close gaps. And so. That feeling of, of, of, of like a real epic race in, in epic circumstances. At this moment, we, we had to ice the world championships in dry, in dry circumstances, but yeah, one day we'll also have them in, uh, in very wet circumstances, like you had, uh, I think unbound was this year in very muddy conditions. **** - (): So, and that will make it very epic. Uh, but to me it's, it's yeah, if you compare it with European. Cycling it's, it's, it's, it's, it's much more a copy of, uh, what Paris Roubaix is every year. [00:13:24] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, yeah, I was going to ask you to the extent in which you, you were there and understand the run up when that first world championships event happened in the qualifiers. How are you thinking about the criteria for the course and course construction? Were there some constraints that the UCI put on the event to make it in the mold of what they were expecting? [00:13:47] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Well, the first year, first of all, um, because of COVID and, and, and yeah. Let's say COVID ended, but, uh, yeah, everybody was still afraid to set up a new event and even the World Championships, uh, beginning of 2022. We had a few candidates, uh, to run the World Championships, but, uh, one after another, they decided, okay, maybe it's too early. **** - (): Let's skip 2022, but we'll focus on 2023 or 2024. Um, So we found an organizer rather late in Italy, so Filippo Pozzato, the ex pro rider. He did a good job because it was like on a short period. He had to prepare the World Championships, but the World Championships were not the typical gravel race. I know from from this doing this series for sure. **** - (): Not the typical gravel race you have in the States. It was like a 50 50 road gravel race and even the gravel was like, yeah, it was flat. It was Um, yeah, to me a bit too much of a road race. Um, um, um, but yeah, it was all last minute. I think that the, uh, the organizer was awarded two months prior to the race. **** - (): Uh, then yeah, the full process of having courses approved, having them checked and then getting the necessary approvals from the different towns. Yeah, it took some time and there was not really. to, to, to, to make an update, um, um, which was done this year, this year. Uh, we had to switch organizer and it was also, uh, only, only two months before the world championships, but the course, which was presented was much better than the first edition, uh, in percentage was more off road, more gravel, but also much more exciting, uh, flats, uh, yeah. **** - (): Paved sections in between, but also a lot of elevation, um, and a very beautiful course, I think very different from what you have in the States. Um, if, if I see the images and the, and the videos from, from Unbound and the American races, yeah, they are. Even more road racing, uh, on gravel roads, um, yeah, in percentage, much more gravel roads, but it's less technical than what we see as gravel events in mainly Europe, which are, um, I wouldn't say they are not more towards mountain bike for sure or not, but they are, um, not wide open big boulevards where you can ride the truck. **** - (): Uh, it's always a smaller, uh, Uh, yeah, forest roads, farm roads. Um, it's, it's more technical. [00:16:38] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a wide diversity of gravel racing in the United States. Obviously, to your point, the Unbound may be on sort of dirt roads [00:16:48] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Yeah. And that's maybe the image we have from, from American gravel racing. [00:16:51] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, yeah, no, it's very interesting to hear you say that because if I'm thinking about like what you might see from an unbound or an SVT gravel, that would very much be the takeaway. **** - (): I would have as well that these are, you know, sort of road racing style open, you know, wide roads that give a lot of opportunity for moving around. Um, but if you dig into the gravel cycling world, there are a lot of events that really push The capabilities of the bikes and really create sections that have a huge impact on the race based on one's technical abilities. **** - (): So, you know, they might go into single track, they might go into mud, they might have river crossings, all the types of things that would really push both the rider's skill levels and equipment. [00:17:37] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Well, for, for the UCI, uh, two things, of course, when, when we started up the, the UCI Gravel Series and the Gravel World Championships. Um, one of the first things we decided is, uh, you have a few of, of, of, uh, of very long, uh, endurance races, uh, a month is, uh, 300 kilometers or even more than 200 miles. Um, [00:18:00] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. 200 miles. Yeah, [00:18:01] - ():  Erwin Verveken: we decided to, with the UCI gravel world series to have like the typical, um, duration of a road race. **** - (): So five, six hours. Um, racing, not, not like unmount this, I guess, 10, 11 hours of racing. Uh, and that's what we are. We're not aiming for that. That's, that's like, yeah, a very big endurance race. Uh, our goal is to keep it in between 150 and 200 kilometers. Um, depending a bit on the elevation and on what is available. **** - (): Um, and then, uh, a second thing is so like single track. It is possible when there's no alternative, so to connect two sections, uh, with a small single track, uh, towards the end of the race. Yeah, it's not preferred, but if there's no other solution, then we allow it. But the big majority should be on wide open gravel roads where we can also ride a car. **** - (): That's the goal of the UCI Gravel World Series. [00:19:10] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. I certainly noticed in the, in the race coverage this past year, and certainly commentary from both the men and women on the U S team that the narrowness of the roads. And you hear this refrain, even when road cyclists go over to Europe, it's just another world when you're trying to pack 200 people into these, through these narrow villages. **** - (): And certainly the other big thing that stood out in some of the video I saw was, Some of the, um, the 180 degree switchbacks on the roads and trails that the riders had to navigate and the, the chaos that ensued around that and how that impact the race. [00:19:47] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Yeah, well, I'm not sure about the 180 degree turns. Uh, you mean now in the last world championships? [00:19:55] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. There was one scene that I saw the riders cutting across the, the earliest part of the corner to get around and join the group. [00:20:04] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Yeah, there were some. Uh, well, it's, it's a famous YouTube video from, from the law at the first half an hour of the, of the gravel world championships in the elite category. Yeah. I don't know. I think it's from an American rider who filmed it with his scope. [00:20:18] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): yeah. I think it's from Payson McKelvin. [00:20:21] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Um, yeah, it gives a good idea of the hectic in the start. **** - (): Uh, and of course, well, our, our, our courses are not fence. They are just marked with science and everybody has a GPS device on his bike. Um, so that's, yeah. I presume it's also the same in the States, so you don't have, uh, uh, tape, uh, to, to, to, to prevent riders from cutting corners. So, um, I think that's, that's the spirit of gravel. **** - (): So, um, yeah, it's only in the, in the first. 10, 15 k in, uh, uh, in the course. Uh, but next year, because then we are ourselves, the organized, so the company I'm working for Goot, so is, uh, organizing the, the next world championships in Belgium. Um, yeah, it will hardly be impossible to, to cut corners there, uh, in the, in the first. **** - (): Part of the race and where it's possible. Yeah, we'll probably also try to prevent it Without making too much Yeah It's, it's, it's never the goal to make like a fenced cyclocross or mountain bike course. Um, that's, that's not our goal, but yeah, different type of racing. Uh, I've done, yeah, because I'm, I'm managing the, these, these races. **** - (): And, um, of course also ex pro rider. So I take my bike to a lot of these events and try to ride them. To get a good impression on the different type of events, uh, if I compare our events, um, uh, which are in the series, there's indeed a lot of different events. Uh, next year we will also, uh, organize the, the Belgian Gravel Championships, uh, which are. **** - (): Uh, very typical American style and Bond style, uh, gravel racing, which is very uncommon in Belgium. But yeah, in the north, there's like a section where, where we can have those kind of races. Uh, so. There's a bit of a difference, but, but yeah, uh, the good thing about gravel is that, uh, you can have very technical races, um, uh, but, but the majority are on wide open roads, fast, uh, uh, you don't need to be too technical. **** - (): If you see, um, more rich winning the world championships. Although I think he's very technical as a rider, as a roadie. Uh, but also Jasper Stavun winning the first European Championships. Um, I don't think he's very technical as a roadie. So, uh, yeah, it's, uh, it's something which, which can suit any, any, uh, any road specialist. [00:23:00] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Gotcha. And when you think about the courses in the men's courses and the women's courses, as I understand it, they differed in distance. Can you talk a little bit about the logic behind that? [00:23:11] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Well, I know that in, in, in, in the States and also let's say in, in, in general in English speaking countries, it's also the same in Britain and in Australia. There's a, there's a big movement to have women and men having the same distance. If you see it cycling, uh, in history, and then I mean, from 50 years back, and even now, all disciplines, uh, being cyclocross, mountain bike, road, uh, women and men have different distances for the World Championships and World Cups. **** - (): Uh, you can be, it's worth a discussion. I know that, uh, in, in. The English speaking countries, there's more, uh, a vote to have them equal, but I don't think there's, well, gender equality doesn't mean that they have to have the, the same distance. I think the media attention should be the same and, and the price money should be the same, but, uh, the, the distance, uh, if you have, uh, the women racing over 260, 270 kilometers, the road world championships. **** - (): It would give a totally different dynamic and it would mean a much more individual race by the end of the race because then it's pure endurance. Well, for the man. Uh, yeah, it's it's another type of race, so I'm not really convinced if they should have, uh, the same distance for men and women. Um, [00:24:42] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Are you thinking about it in terms of time? Are you shooting for a similar amount of time out there on the bike for [00:24:48] - ():  Erwin Verveken: no, not even time. Um, we did many surveys amongst the participants after the World Championships, uh, both in Gran Fondo and Gravel. And if you ask, uh, women if they prefer to have the same distance as men, probably Americans and, yeah, Australians, they would go for it. Yeah, the same distance, but it depends also a bit on what riders prefer. **** - (): Uh, everybody is, is, if you're somebody who has a great endurance, uh, you will pick the same distance as the man. If you're more explosive and you're more a tactic, uh, uh, yeah, a strong sprinter type of rider. You prefer a shorter course. So, but in general, we see that, uh, if we ask men, women directly, our participants, that the majority still prefers a shorter distance for, uh, for women. **** - (): Um, [00:25:41] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. I mean, I think it's an interesting debate and I'm certainly not one to opine too strongly one way or the other, but I do imagine that you have more dynamic racing in the shorter distances [00:25:53] - ():  Erwin Verveken: that's what I'm. [00:25:54] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): people complaining with me about this. [00:25:56] - ():  Erwin Verveken: So I, I don't know, women on the road, for instance, the, uh, the road, World Championships now in Glasgow for women. I don't know, but I think there were 150, 160 and men were 260. In general, they're around that distance. But if you have the women also on the 260, well, it will be a pure endurance race. **** - (): And by the end, they will be, there's a big chance that there will be one. One by one. So, um, and then on the meet, I'm floating can start racing again because she's she's a super strong rider who survives everybody by the end of the race when it's a very hard race. Um, so, yeah, um, it's worth the discussion. **** - (): But if you ask the riders, I think the majority will still prefer to have a shorter distance for women because it's indeed another dynamic. [00:26:51] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. When you think about, uh, and I do want to get into the master's element of this cause I think that's fascinating. And for our listeners who are non professional athletes, I think it's a great and interesting opportunity. But one final question at the elite level, how do you determine how many riders an individual country can bring to the event? [00:27:10] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Well, so the basic goal is that everybody should qualify. But, uh, in order to promote the first editions of the World Championships and, uh, yeah, to also have national teams and the federations involved, in 2022 and also this year, the UCI decided to grant 20 wildcards to every national federation. For riders, um, um, so in the past two years, now 2022, 2023, they could be used by any rider. **** - (): Uh, so also the Masters and, and, and, and the Age Group riders. Uh, for 2024, it will only be limited for the Elite category. And gradually, it's our goal to limit the number of wildcards. So riders should be really be encouraged to qualify. But on the other hand, first year we had Peter Sagan, we had Mathieu we had, uh, Greg van Auermaat all participating. **** - (): And without those wildcards, they wouldn't have been there. Uh, Pauline Ferrand Bréveau. This year Vollering, uh, Wout van Aert, uh, well, Wout qualified, but, uh, the other riders, Mohoritch, um, we were really happy with them at the start. So we want to keep a certain amount of, uh, of, of wildcards for the, for the top level riders. **** - (): And yeah, we'll see from year to year, uh, evaluate after every edition of the World Championships, if we have to stick to, uh, I don't know, maybe 10 wildcards, uh, maximum per country, or more wildcards for the bigger countries, uh, less wildcards for the smaller countries. But this year we also had riders from Guinea Bissau and from Barbados and, uh, yeah, like very exotic countries at the start. **** - (): Uh, and they wouldn't have been there without these wildcards, so, um. Yeah, I'm still in favor of having them, but maybe limit them a bit more. So the drivers really are encouraged to have to go to a qualifier. Yeah, [00:29:04] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): And you mentioned that that qualification, it sounds like it's standard across the board. If you finish at a UCI gravel world cup qualifier event in the top 25%, you've punched your tickets to go to the world championships. [00:29:17] - ():  Erwin Verveken: The only change next year is that, um. And the first two years, qualification was always per age group, but then we saw this year Verde. Yeah. He saw, uh, in the meantime, 42 years old. So he, he then had to qualify in the 40 to 44 age category and Okay. The, the two races he did were, were not the biggest one. **** - (): I think the, the one in, uh, the two in Spain, he won, were like five, 600 drivers at the start. So then it's still okay to to, to have him in the front. But well, as these events grow bigger and bigger, uh, we decided to also have the elite category as part of the qualifier series. So before every race, you have to choose, okay, I want to go and qualify for the world championships elite or for my age group. **** - (): Uh, so like a rider being 19 to 34 years old, if he chooses to sign up for the elite category, Of course, with an elite license, then he can only qualify for the elite category at the world championships. If he chooses to qualify or to sign up for the age groups, he can only qualify for his age group. Um, and that's what we decided this year to change. **** - (): Um, so that the elite category can also have older riders, uh, in their 30s, 35, 40 years old, like Valverde, like, uh, yeah, many of them will retire from road racing and like, uh, Jan Baklans, Nicky Terpstra, uh, yeah, probably also a lot of Americans who are over 35, but still want to race elite at a high level. **** - (): So, yeah. they didn't get the opportunity to race elite. [00:30:58] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): you'd, you'd may have mentioned this earlier, but just so I understand on race day are the amateur men lining up behind the elite men and starting kind of alongside them. [00:31:10] - ():  Erwin Verveken: at the qualifier events, uh, well, they're different options and we give a lot of freedom to the different organizers to set up or the setup of the start can either be man elite in front, followed by women elite. And then with a small interval, the age groups, uh, or we can have many leads followed by men age groups. **** - (): Let's say until the age of 50 and then the women elite with all with a small interval, but it depends a bit on the size of the field. And yeah, I think next year our biggest event will be over 2000. So then you have to make some. Rules to, to, to make a fair start and a fair reason. Uh, but we still give the opportunity, um, to riders without a license to qualify for the world championships in their age groups. **** - (): So it's only for the elite category that you need a license. If you want to race, uh, in the age groups, uh, you're 42 years old and you still want to do world championships. So you can go to a qualifier, take part, um, and then qualify for the world championships. And it's only. to sign up for the world championships that you need a year license, so not to qualify. [00:32:20] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. Super exciting. Let's talk about the 2024 Trek UCI gravel world series calendar. You've expanded now to a total, is it a 26 events [00:32:31] - ():  Erwin Verveken: well there's uh in the 25 Qualifying for the 2024 World Championships and one was in October, uh, past the World Championships for the 2025 World Championships. So, uh, but yeah, we have been expanding with, uh, a lot of extra races. So if I look at the list, one extra in Austria, one extra in Italy. Um, I'm running off the list here now on my computer. **** - (): Uh, there's a new race in Kenya. There's a new race, a second year race in Germany, Switzerland, one in Wales in the UK. Um, and then by the end of the season, also a second new one in Spain. Um, and there will most likely be two. Uh, extra ones being added later, uh, which still are struggling with approvals. Uh, so yeah, there's, uh, there's, it's no secret that there's one candidate in Rwanda where the world championships on the road take place next now in 2025. **** - (): Um, and, and a second one in Switzerland, uh, they will most likely be added, uh, yeah, in the next few weeks. [00:33:48] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): when you, what does it take for an event to become part of the series and are these events typically events that have run in the past and then embrace the UCI series and come to you and say, yeah, I'd like to be part of it or are they events that happened from the ground up? With the sole intention of being a UCI qualifier. [00:34:07] - ():  Erwin Verveken: It's it's a mix. Um, we have existing events will have been run as a competitive event before we have, uh, fun events like, uh, leisure events like non competitive events with been switched to a competitive event. We have big organizers who have run professional road racing or Gran Fondo racing, like the race in Switzerland is run by the same team who has the UCI Gran Fondo for many years. **** - (): Um, yeah, so. New events will have all of a sudden started up, um, the second race in, in, uh, Germany, for instance, has run the motorbike marathon world championships five years ago or six years ago, 2017. Uh, so it's a mix. Yeah. Um, [00:34:59] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): And then, you know, obviously there's presumably an application process for the event to become part of the series. Do the events then need to take on that same kind of, uh, men will race by themselves. Women will race by themselves. The distance will be in it within certain parameters. Is that what the, how they have to adopt to the UCI landscape? [00:35:20] - ():  Erwin Verveken: yeah. Well, but as I told, we're not too difficult in these first years. We don't want to, the big criticism we had, uh, especially from, from, uh, from, from the States, uh, in the beginning is, well, you see, I will make it, uh, too much regulations and things like that. Um, well, we decided not to make, uh, any regulation. **** - (): So the bike is free, of course, no e bike, but, uh, If you want to raise a mountain bike, or a gravel bike, or a road bike, whatever bike you like, the perfect bike that fits best for that course is, is, is, is, is free to use. Uh, distance, well, there's a rule now, I think the minimum distance is 75k and the maximum 200. **** - (): Um, but for the rest, uh, there's no Regulation on tire width, uh, starting procedure is also quite flexible. Uh, we discuss it with every organizer, but, uh, yeah, we are pretty flexible in, in allowing things. [00:36:23] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Gotcha. What are the things that, that struck me when I looked at the 2024 calendar? Was we still only have one event here in the United States? Is that intentional? Is it just [00:36:35] - ():  Erwin Verveken: no, no. Because [00:36:36] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): for events? And [00:36:39] - ():  Erwin Verveken: let's say that we would like to have, um, in the, the, the big traditional cycling countries in Europe, two events, like we have now. Two in Belgium, two in Holland, two in Germany, two in Switzerland, two in Italy, two in Spain, uh, only one in France, two in the uk. And then for the big countries like the, the States, Canada or Australia, uh, we can go up to three events. **** - (): And I've been in very good context with, with potential, uh, uh, yeah. Interested organizers who have started the process of, yeah. Um, yeah, uh, having different online meetings with me, but also of course. On their side, getting the approvals, um, and speaking to their sponsors. And we have been very close with one organizer, um, yeah, to finally become the second qualifier. **** - (): And I'm sure that in 2025, we will have at least two, probably even three events. Uh, and also in Canada, I'm in touch with a second Canadian event, uh, which is likely to sign. And which I had expected to sign already for 2024. But yeah, the, uh, it's also the same in, in, uh, in Grand Fonda racing. Um, It's, it's, it's more challenging for me to convince, uh, an American organizer to, to join, uh, the series. **** - (): Um, a part of it is because, well, they, um, there is like, um, let's say, uh, uh, a general criticism in everything which is related to regulations and to federations within the states. That's what I learned from my different contexts. Uh, people don't like to be. To regulate it, although I think we are quite flexible. **** - (): Um, uh, and, uh, another big thing is in Europe, there is, uh, yeah, for organizing and we're speaking about the financial part of the, of, of, of, of organizing an event is in, in, uh, in the States, there's not such a system of, of government funding. So in Europe, but also in Africa, we have three African events to in Australia, uh, people organizers apply for fundings with the city, the region or an entity from the government, which puts in money to promote events of a high level, but also because they generate a lot of tourism. **** - (): If I see that this year, the European Championships, we organized ourselves, uh, uh, on the 1st of October. Well, we had 1, 700 riders coming from, I don't know exactly 30 or 35 different countries, but they all stay in the hotel for a few nights because they want to do a record right a few days before they stay after they go and have dinner, they buy a souvenir, they rent a car. **** - (): So there's a lot of economic return for the region. And that system doesn't really exist in the, in the States, as far as I know, from, from my country. [00:39:45] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. You know, it's true. I've talked about this on a number of occasions with different event organizers and it's, it is super interesting. Like there are some rural regions that are trying to reinvent themselves where you do get some of that interplay with the local city government and great deal of enthusiasm to bring riders in because having them. **** - (): Yeah. A thousand people and their families over a weekend is a great economic boom for those cities. And then in other cases, you have the exact opposite mentality, which is we don't want any more people coming here. We don't need athletes to come into our town. You know, particularly I live in the San Francisco Bay area [00:40:23] - ():  Erwin Verveken: which is really a pity. Um, I think. [00:40:27] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): very much [00:40:27] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Sports, sports in general, especially while I'm living in Belgium, which is probably the cycling country together with Italy and France, we have, uh, every little town has his own club and has at least a competitive rider and this, uh, yeah, uh, you have to drive maximum one hour to do a race on Saturday and Sunday, uh, in every discipline. **** - (): So that's, that's the good thing about, uh, well. living in a traditional cycling country, but also for organizers. Uh, excuse me. Um, so yeah, the, the, the fundings we have are necessary to set up big events and they are live on television. It's part of our culture. They generate, as I told you, a lot of. **** - (): Economic return, but not only economic return, it's also, yeah, promotion for the region if you have like a very nice, um, yeah, uh, area with, with a beautiful nature. It's a good promotion for, for, for the region to, to generate also other type of tourism. The race we now organized on the 1st of October, which will also fit us as a first, no, the next world championships next year in Belgium. **** - (): Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a national park. It's a big forest area. It's being promoted now through these kinds of events and the weeks before, but especially the weeks after. The European Championships we organized there. It was full of people, yeah, uh, hiking, uh, um, riding their bikes. And they also come and then, yeah, uh, it generates tourism and tourism means money for the region. **** - (): And, um, yeah, that's, that's the good thing about, uh, yeah, cycling in, in, in, in Belgium, for instance. [00:42:24] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, yeah, if I was to sort of read the tea leaves, so to speak about the U. S. gravel cycling scene sentiment around the U. C. I. gravel world championships and the qualifier events, I would say, I. I'm reading a market change this year after the event, we sent some of our best athletes over there, there was good exposure. **** - (): Obviously we wish that the, the women's race was able to be televised, but I understand what happened there, but seeing the scene and seeing the camaraderie of the U S team, I believe has translated to a sort of a general uplifting of the UCI brand within gravel. And this idea that, you know, the racing is different. **** - (): It's, it's, it's different and unique in its own way. And the experience is quite powerful, you know, to go to a world level event where you're representing your country, whether it's at an elite level or at the master's level, it's just super exciting. And it's a feeling that compares differently to what it feels like to be at Unbound or SBT Gravel. **** - (): It's its own unique and special thing that I think more US riders are now aspiring to. [00:43:38] - ():  Erwin Verveken: No, I'm sure. So I'm not this. Well, uh, the biggest travel event worldwide and a long tradition and it's, it's, but it's still, uh, I guess a 90 or 95 percent based American event. Participants, uh, they come from many different countries, but The big majority is still American. If you're at the World Championships, you're, first of all, dressed in your national kit, which is fairly prestigious, it's very, yeah. **** - (): Riders are proud, and especially Americans are proud to wear their national colors. Uh, they ride in a team, they travel towards an event, uh, and then you're next shoulder to shoulder at the start grid, next to a British rider, an Italian, a Slovenian, a Belgian, uh, which creates a special atmosphere. Um, and yeah, the first year there was a lot of criticism on the course. **** - (): Um, I agree for a part of it. I was, I wasn't the best course. I was not also, also not a hundred percent convinced on the course this year. It was pure promotion for gravel. Uh, and, and The fact that, uh, yeah, also your best gravel rider, Keegan Swanson, was there. Yeah, it was also a good promotion for our world championships. **** - (): But, yeah, in the end, I'm sure that let him develop a bit longer in an international gravel scene. He'll probably, yeah, he can win the world championships for sure. And then he would be a great ambassador, uh, wearing the, the, the, the, the, the, the rainbow jersey also in the state. So, and our biggest goal is to still, because we have been in talks with USA Cycling to bring the, the World Championships, uh, to, to the States. **** - (): And there were some very interested, uh, organizers, uh, we were very close to a deal, uh, in the first year, but unfortunately, well, then, uh, they were a bit hesitating and, and decided to skip. For the next few years, but then given the very big explosion of gravel racing in Europe, all of a sudden, yeah, it was awarded until now, uh, 20, 28. **** - (): Uh, so it's, uh, uh, yeah, they missed an opportunity. Um, Yeah. [00:45:51] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Have you, so we know that 2024 will be in Belgium. Have you announced where the roadmap goes in the subsequent years? [00:45:59] - ():  Erwin Verveken: 2025 is France, Nice. So the South of France, uh, 2026 is, is, uh, the seven event in Western Australia. Uh, which is now already part of the, of the, of the UCR gravel. We'll see is 2027 is again, the combined world championships of the UCR, which now took place in Glasgow this past August, and they will then also have gravel. **** - (): Which is again in France, so the Haut Savoie region, which is the Alps. It's, uh, if you see the mountain stages of the Tour de France, so that area, there will be a lot of climbing. Um, that's 2027, and then 2028 is Alula in Saudi Arabia. Uh, which is a big sports city, and they have a big and huge budget, uh, to promote cycling, and especially gravel is one of their key. **** - (): So, um, and then 2029, I know there's a lot of interest. Um, um, and, uh, yeah, hopefully one day I'm sure that if we have a very good candidate in the States, uh, the UCI would be very happy to, to, to have the world championships awarded to, to the States, uh, uh, because, well, in the end, the history of gravel racing is, is, is in, in the U S Midwestern. [00:47:18] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Erwin, thank you so much for the time. I appreciate learning more about UCI's approach and everything you're doing to promote the sport. Very much appreciate it. [00:47:28] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Well, it's a pleasure. It's, uh, also it was nice talking to an American audience. Uh, uh, so, uh, yeah, happy to, to explain what we are doing and what our plans are for the future years. [00:47:42] - ():  Craig Dalton (host): Amazing. Thanks again. [00:47:44] - ():  Erwin Verveken: Thank you.    

Bloc d'actualités. La délégation slovaque est partie pour les Jeux Olympiques d ela jeunesse d'hiver en Corée du Sud. En 2023, Peter Sagan a dit ses adieux au cyclisme sur route.

Bloc d'actualités. Sport Slovaque. Les médias s'expriment sur le coureur cycliste slovaque Peter Sagan. Jaroslav Coplák, l'ancien directeur du Bureau maritime de la République slovaque ainsi que grand spécialiste et amateur des bateaux et de la navigation maritime.

Todo mundo já sabia, mas agora é oficial. Uma das mais tradicionais equipes do WT, a AG2R agora terá a Decathlon como co-patrocinador. O time também anunciou reforços importantes como Victor Lafay e Sam Bennett. Esse é um dos assuntos do dia no Gregario Radio. Leandro Bittar e Nicolas Sessler também comentam o ciclocross, as movimentações do mercado, a vitória de Peter Sagan e muito mais.Vamos ter também a participação especial de Edson Rocha, o Tubiba, comentando o desempenho brasileiro no Para-Pan de Santiago.O RADIO é um oferecimento de Session Brasil (@sessionbrasil). We Make you Faster. Visite o site: http://www.sessionbrasil.com.brThis podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis: Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy

George Hincapie and Johan Bruyneel sit down with the legendary three-time World Champion Peter Sagan to look back at his amazing career, starting with how he started competing in road cycling and how he burst onto the scene at the 2012 Tour de France, where he won three stages and the Green Jersey. Peter discusses his biggest victory, how he dealt with pressure, and the difficulty of winning races as he became a bigger star and heavily marked rider, and how the dynamics in the peloton have drastically changed from the beginning to the end of his career. Before he goes, Peter outlines his plans for the future now that he has stepped away from professional road cycling. Indeed: Start hiring NOW with a $75 sponsored job credit to upgrade your job post at indeed.com/themove buycycle: For a limited time you can save up to $100 on your purchase by entering code “THEMOVE” at checkout at buycycle.com

Bloc d'actualités. Sport Slovaque. Les médias s'expriment sur le coureur cycliste slovaque Peter Sagan. Jaroslav Coplák, l'ancien directeur du Bureau maritime de la République slovaque ainsi que grand spécialiste et amateur des bateaux et de la navigation maritime.

Bicycle Talk Episode 365:  October 4,  2023: Ron's Rant: Ron talks about Butts on Bikes and the fear of riding on the road. Observations from a recently attended weekend event.  Why cities with high bicycling rates are safer for all road users.  On a positive side: Frannie is back!  So long Peter Sagan, still have […]

Fim de semana de despedidas. Henrique Avancini e Peter Sagan correram pela última vez na elite do esporte e já deixam saudade. O RADIO de hoje rende tributo aos dois gênios. Cada um da sua forma.Falamos também da (con)fusão da Jumbo com a Quick Step. Afinal, parece que está tudo certo e nada resolvido. Parece que a coisa está pior para os belgas. Mas a Jumbo também pode sair até pior dessa história sem Roglic (certo) e (talvez) Remco Evenepoel. Outro tema importante na semana são as provas UCI no Brasil. Será a primeira vez desde 2017 que recebemos as provas internacionais. Um evento importante no contexto dos pontos olímpicos. Do calendário internacional, a décima vitória de Arnaud de Lie em 2023 (com um pé só). A vitória do xará Demare na aposentadoria do Sagan e o título do venezuelano Orluis Aular na Croácia. Na Itália teve o primeiro embate do Roglic com o Pogacar no Giro dell'Emilia. Deu Roglic e a coisa deve esquentar ainda mais com a Tre Valle Varesine, Gran Piemonte e a Il Lombardia. Detalhe que quem corre o Gran Piemonte é o Wout Van Aert. Uma prova que o brasileiro Murilo Fischer venceu em 2005. Ainda tem o Gravel e muito mais nesse podcast que é um oferecimento de Session Brasil (@sessionbrasil). We Make you Faster. Visite o site: http://www.sessionbrasil.com.brThis podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis: Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy

¡Nuevo podcast de #ElMaillotSemanal! 🎙️ No te olvides de darle LIKE 💛 y comentar 😉 Para que no te pierdas nada: 1️⃣ Entradilla (00:00 - 10:00) 2️⃣ Analizamos la marcha de Primoz Roglic de Jumbo-Visma y los posibles destinos del ciclista esloveno. ¿Dónde correrá en 2024 para intentar ganar el Tour de Francia? (10:00 - 49:48) 3️⃣ Pasada una semana desde la noticia, debatimos acerca de la absorción de Soudal-QuickStep por parte del equipo neerlandés y de cómo esto puede afectar al futuro de Remco Evenepoel, sondeado por INEOS Grenadiers (49:48 - 1:36:17) 4️⃣ Repasamos las carreras de la semana, incidiendo en la retirada definitiva de Peter Sagan, al que dedicamos una entretenida reflexión. Por último, leemos vuestros siempre inestimables comentarios que nos dejasteis en el pasado programa (1:36:17 - 3:02:53) Dirección llevada a cabo por Juan Clavijo. Comentarios de David García Landero y Sergio Yustos. ❤️ ¡PINCHA EN EL BOTÓN DE 'APOYAR' y CONVIÉRTETE EN FAN DE 'EL MAILLOT'! ➡️ Episodios EXCLUSIVOS como este, sin publicidad y sorteos para FANS. 🗣️ ¡Déjanos tu comentario y lo leeremos en el próximo podcast! ¡YA DISPONIBLE el esperado 'el maillot de El Maillot' gracias a DECATHLON! 🚴‍♂️ HOMBRE ➡ https://afiliacion.decathlon.es/tracking/clk/uQZGAtW 🚴‍♀️ MUJER ➡ https://afiliacion.decathlon.es/tracking/clk/tbC0XvF ✔ ANÚNCIATE EN ESTE PODCAST: https://advoices.com/el-maillot 🔷 ¡CONOCE HSN Y HAZTE CON SUS PRODUCTOS CON NUESTRA URL!: https://www.hsnstore.com/hsnaffiliate/click/?linkid=b3RoZXJsaW5rfHxodHRwczovL3d3dy5oc25zdG9yZS5jb20vfHxFTE1BSUxMT1R8fGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmhzbnN0b3JlLmNvbS8= 🔷 ¡ECHA UN VISTAZO A TODA LA GAMA DE PRODUCTOS DEL EQUIPO COFIDIS GRACIAS A DECATHLON!: https://afiliacion.decathlon.es/tracking/clk?26gzeDj 🔷 ¡APROVECHA NUESTRA URL DE SIROKO!: https://srko.co/elmaillot | ¡10% de descuento adicional en todos los artículos! 📲 GRUPO DE TELEGRAM DE EL MAILLOT: https://t.me/elmaillot 🔻 LISTA SPOTIFY 'El Maillot Music': https://bit.ly/elmaillot 🎵 SELECCIÓN MUSICAL: Red Hot Chili Peppers - 'Snow' La Raíz - 'A La Sombra De La Sierra' GHALI - 'Good Times' 👋 SÍGUENOS EN: IVOOX 🎙️ https://www.ivoox.com/podcast-maillot_sq_f1409103_1.html TWITTER 🗣️ @ElMaillot_ YOUTUBE 💻 https://www.youtube.com/c/ElMaillot TWITCH 📹 https://www.twitch.tv/elmaillot INSTAGRAM 📷 https://www.instagram.com/elmaillot/ DISCORD 🕹️ https://discord.gg/x3AqMV4b STRAVA 🚴🏻‍♂️ https://www.strava.com/clubs/el-maillot-772962 SPOTIFY 🎧 https://open.spotify.com/show/7bPcjjM5UmlSy3oFxYlzhe APPLE PODCASTS 🎧 https://podcasts.apple.com/es/podcast/el-maillot/id1252256876

C'est le mariage impossible entre la Carpe hollandaise et le géant des Flandres : la Jumbo Visma et la Quickstep serait sur le point de se dire oui. Un mariage d'argent qui pose question : le cyclisme peut-il sortit grandit de l'alliance de deux monstres ? Comment faire cohabiter les leaders et ennemis d'hier ? Que faire des coureurs qui resteront sur le carreau ? Et surtout l'arrivée d'un troisième larron, Amazon et son budget sans fin, va-t-il régler les problèmes … ou en créer de nouveau ?  Votre podcast préféré revient sur le feuilleton de la semaine et sur la fusion entre la meilleure équipe du monde et la plus grande formation de tous les temps. Rien que ça…  Et dans Grand Plateau, retour aussi sur la carrière d'un immense champion. Pas de fusion pas d'effusion. Sur le Tour de Vendée, Peter Sagan, a raccroché le vélo de route. Comme toujours, avec classe. Comme souvent dans le top 10. Mais comme rarement, anonyme. Que retenir du prodige slovaque ? Et aurait-il pu faire mieux ? On en parle avec la fine équipe de Grand Plateau.

On today's show, and… Damian has news on bike launches from Canyon and Bianchi, a glimpse at the potential next-Generation SRAM AXS Shifters, and some other tasty treats, and Peter Sagan real retirement plans for 2024…but we're starting this show with inside baseball on nutrition and pro rider salaries from the secret rider…Secret Pro Insights: https://escapecollective.com/the-secret-rider-nutrition-fads-silly-season-and-salaries/Peter Sagan Update: https://escapecollective.com/i-want-mountain-bikes-to-bring-the-old-peter-sagan-back/ and https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/peter-sagan-prepares-to-join-specialized-mtb-team-after-storied-road-career/You can watch this episode on Youtube: https://youtu.be/V3MMPk27R5gEpisode Links:SRAM AXS Shifters: https://bikerumor.com/will-we-wear-the-next-generation-sram-axs-shifters/Canyon Endurace Bike: https://bikerumor.com/2023/08/15/new-canyon-endurace-road-bike-gets-storage-inside-and-ultralight-cfr-treatment/Bianchi Oltre Race and Sprint Bikes: https://road.cc/content/tech-news/bianchi-introduces-new-oltre-race-and-sprint-road-bikes-and-suggests-12-speed-shimanoSilca Ultimate Chain Stripper and Wax Prep: https://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/shokz-openfit-headphonesStreamlines Forma Sensor:https://www.streamlines.aero

In this week's episode of Quick Spin, Damian provides a comprehensive rundown of the latest happenings in the world of cycling. This show covers the new Specialized Tarmac SL8, featuring the "Speed Sniffer" fat head tube. Find out why they designed this unique feature. Plus innovative cycling products, social media rounds and even a glimpse into the retirement plans of cycling superstar Peter Sagan.You can also watch this on Youtube here: https://youtu.be/zTUPfeTnSbc

It's that time of year when the big bike brands start to release their new bikes for the year and this week the lads chat about the hype around the Specialized Tarmac SL8. Plus they take a look at Peter Sagan's new themed hotel, create their own dream hotel, discuss bike packing tips for beginners and answer your questions about e-bikes and how to prep for a 100km ride.If you'd like to check out Sagan's new hotel yourself, you can do here (NOT sponsored! We just found it interesting!) https://www.instagram.com/sp.resort/?hl=enIf you'd like us to send in a question, story, some good news, things you'd like us to discuss or anything else, email us at wildonespodcast@cademedia.co.ukThanks and see you next time. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Lance, JB, and George are joined by Johan Bruyneel to wrap up their 2023 Tour de France coverage by breaking down Jordi Meeus' incredible, and completely unexpected, photo-finish win with a perfect bike throw over Jasper Philipsen and Dylan Groenewegen on the Champs-Élysées in Paris.  The crew also discuss Tadej Pogačar's repeated attacks in an attempt to win the stage from a breakaway, as well as Jonas Vingegaard cruising in to seal his massive 7+ minute victory over Pogačar and how his Jumbo team executed their pre-Tour plan perfectly for 21 straight stages. They go through what UAE and Pogačar can learn from his Tour, and how Thibaut Pinot and Peter Sagan weren't given any gifts on their final pass of the Champs, before touching on the news that Jumbo will be taking Vingegaard to the Vuelta a España in late August in an attempt to complete a historic grand tour sweep.  ROKA: Listeners can enter code THEMOVE at checkout to receive a 20% discount on their first order at roka.com/themove Huckberry: We're currently offering Free Shipping on all first orders. Visit huckberry.com/themove Ketone-IQ: Save 30% off your first subscription order of Ketone-IQ at hvmn.com/THEMOVE AG1: Try AG1 and get a FREE 1-year supply of Vitamin D AND 10 free AG1 Travel Packs with your first purchase. Go to drinkAG1.com/THEMOVE Ventum: Get 10% off when you use code WEDU at checkout at ventumracing.com/themove

Cheap Chinese bike and groupset content is all the flavour on YouTube, but have we reached saturation. Criterium bikes have been around for a while, but have they changed and are they something you should consider? And will Peter Sagan win a stage at this years Tour de France? Chapters: 00:00 Intro 00:25 What Is a Crit Bike? 08:14 Chinese Groupset Overkill 22:26 Tour de France Predictions 31:08 Forced To Ride in $500 Kit 44:08 Standardised Bike Build Price 48:18 Chris Goes GravelSUBSCRIBE On Youtube: http://bit.ly/2gMWc1t The Nero Show is available on your favourite Podcast platform Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0UEODvANsVqrvSZV5TAqBv Amazon: https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/28558e66-2a6b-4ff5-a6bf-709f05b1ffe9 Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-nero-cycling-show-|-unfiltered-cycling-podcast/id1659229051 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This episode of Service Course was recorded on location at the Hell of the North. Join Lizzy Banks and Tom Whalley for two breathtaking races at Paris-Roubaix and a closer look at some of the bikes being ridden. The pair hear about the rival adjustable tyre pressure systems being used by Team DSM and Jumbo-Visma at the race, Scope Atmoz and Gravaa Kaps respectively, as well as speaking to the creator of Gravaa Kaps, Gertjan van Ginderen. Despite both DSM and Jumbo-Visma having men's and women's teams, disappointingly the systems were absent from the women's race, and Lizzy finds out exactly why that was. Alongside that there are some other, literal, Easter Eggs, notably the one on John Degenkolb's top tube, and seemingly an almost complete absence of suspension systems. Peter Sagan was using one, but he also had a gash in his tyre as Lizzy points out to his team before the start. The Cycling Podcast is supported by Supersapiens and Science in Sport. Follow us on social media: Twitter @cycling_podcast Instagram @thecyclingpodcast The 11.01 Cappuccino Our regular email newsletter is now on Substack. Subscribe here for frothy, full-fat updates to enjoy any time (as long as it's after 11am). Supersapiens Supersapiens is a continuous glucose monitoring system that helps you make the right fuelling choices. See supersapiens.com Science in Sport The Cycling Podcast has been supported since 2016 by Science In Sport. World leading experts in endurance nutrition. Go to scienceinsport.com to see the whole range. MAAP The Cycling Podcast x MAAP collection is available now. Go to maap.cc to see the full MAAP range. D Vine Cellars To order The Cycling Podcast Highlights case, or any of the cases commemorating the 2022 Grand Tours visit dvinecellars.com Friends of the Podcast Sign up as a Friend of the Podcast at thecyclingpodcast.com to listen to more than 60 exclusive episodes. The Cycling Podcast is on Strava The Cycling Podcast was founded in 2013 by Richard Moore, Daniel Friebe and Lionel Birnie.

The seven-time Tour de France green jersey winner joins Geraint and Tom for the final episode of series 3. ‘Peter The Great' and G reminisce on years of racing against each other, but who will retire first? We also learn about Sagan's love of a friendly bet between friends or team-mates… but how many has he lost and what were the consequences? And remember, Watts Occurring starts on the GTCC feed from Tuesday 14th March so there's no end to the cycling content! Also, if you want bonus episodes of the GTCC over the Spring and Summer, become an Official GTCC Domestique over at patreon.com/GTCC.

Ted King raced as a professional on the road for years, working his way up through the American domestic ranks to join the world's best in Europe, where he raced alongside Peter Sagan for a couple of years with the three-time world champion when Sagan was at the top of his game. Ted King worked with FasCat Coaching for a number of his years racing — including some time undercover! — and on this podcast FasCat Founder Frank Overton and Ted talk about their early forays into training with power, what it was like to be one of two Americans on an Italian-speaking European team, and Ted's upcoming XL'ent Adventures and plan to tackle the Tour Divide.

This week we sit down with Carlos Perez, founder of Bike Monkey to discuss the upcoming 2023 Truckee Tahoe Gravel event. We dig into why Truckee Tahoe is such an amazing area for gravel riding and Carlos' definition of influencers. Truckee Tahoe Gravel Episode Sponsor: Dynamic Cyclist (Code: TheGravelRide 15% off) Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist. This week on the show, I'm thrilled to have Carlos Perez talking about Truckee Tahoe, gravel. Carlos is the founder of bike monkey. If you live in California or maybe in the surrounding area, undoubtedly, you've done a bike monkey event. Carlos and his team have produced Levi's Gran Fondo bogs fish rock hammer road, rally. Wente the list goes on and on of the events that Carlos has had a hand in producing. I've had a number of friends that have done the Truckee Tahoe gravel event in the past and had a great time. So I'm finally got around to pinning Carlos down and getting him on the podcast to talk about this year's event. They've made a couple changes to the event, which I wanted to have an opportunity for him to highlight, but all in all, it's just one of those events here in Northern California, that is well-regarded from an athlete's perspective. It's certainly taking place in a beautiful area. We'll get into why Tahoe is so special for cyclists and why it's a region that you can bring the whole family to. On that point, we did also dig into when Carlos and his team create events. They think about influencers, but not influencers. In terms of someone on Tik, TOK or Instagram, they think about influencers from the perspective of the family that might be joining you, whether it's your husband or your wife, joining you while you go out and ride, it's always great to have a location where the whole family can enjoy the event and have an event organizer. Who's thinking about that broader community. Versus just simply the athletes themselves. So I'm excited for you to hear about the Truckee Tahoe gravel event. But before we jump in, I want to thank this week sponsor. Dynamic cyclist. If you scroll back your feed to episode 1 54, you can hear my interview with Sarah from dynamic cyclist. Dynamic cyclist is a video based mobility, strength and injury prevention program designed specifically for cyclists. I am probably about 30, 35 episodes into my stretching routine and my low back injury prevention routine. My low back has been a big issue for me the last couple years, and probably the most gating feature of my body in terms of how long and how hard I can ride. So this winter, I was definitely determined to do the thing we all should be doing, which is stretching. I've struggled, even though I've known the stretches that I need to do. I frankly, struggled to fit it in and having dynamic cyclist in my life and the 15 to 20 minute long routines available for me each night. Has gotten me focused on something easy. That I can do. And I found it really easy to follow, and I've been impressed in terms of the different tweaks and orientations that they've encouraged me to do throughout the routines to get to different parts of my muscles. And I'm very excited about this being part of my daily routine, because I think we all know that stretching. Is the number one way in which we can prevent injuries and make sure we're taking care of our bodies. But anyway, I encourage you to check out dynamic cyclists. They have a seven day free trial. If it looks like a fit for you, use the code, the gravel ride, and you're going to get 15% off the already affordable rates. To check it out, just head on over to dynamics, cyclists.com. With that said, let's jump right into my interview with Carlos. [00:04:10] Craig Dalton: Carlos, welcome to the show. [00:04:12] Carlos Perez: Thanks, Craig. Happy to [00:04:13] Craig Dalton: Good. Yeah, good to see you. It took us a little while to get this scheduled, but I'm stoked to finally have you and, and get you on to talk about the Truckee Tahoe Gravel event. [00:04:22] Carlos Perez: Yeah, it can be a little hard to pin me down sometimes, so I'm glad that we made it work. [00:04:27] Craig Dalton: It sounds like it's especially hard to pin you down in the spring and summer months cuz with Bike Monkey you're producing events all over California and also outside of the. [00:04:38] Carlos Perez: Yeah. Yeah, our spring's very busy. [00:04:41] Craig Dalton: Let's take a step back before we kind of jump into Bike Monkey and into the gravel event up in Tahoe. How did you get into cycling originally? And then let's talk about how you got into event production. [00:04:54] Carlos Perez: Uh, well, it can be, I'll, I'll keep it as short as I can. . Um, we, I was working for a, a medical manufacturer company as a software developer. And, um, my boss at the time, Russell Briggs actually, uh, was like, yo, dude, let's go mountain biking. And I didn't really have a mountain bike at the time, so I went and I bought a mountain bike and he took me into Adel State Park and I was like 20 at the. And I was like, what the heck is this is amazing. Like, I want to do this and that. That was where I got the bug for, for riding bikes. And did that for several years. Uh, and then ultimately one day, uh, some friends of mine were around, you know, trying to do some fundraising for a cause that was important to us. And I kind of raised my hand and said, Hey, you know, like I'd like to actually organize a bike race. And so that's where it started. And we organized a small. Mountain bike race with, you know, like one truck full of supplies for about 80 people. And um, that's kind of where the spirit of Bike Monkey was born. And I, I got the bug. [00:06:04] Craig Dalton: And to set the stage a little bit for people. So you're, you're based in Northern California, right? [00:06:09] Carlos Perez: Yeah. We're based in Santa Rosa, which is in the middle. It's the biggest city in Sonoma County, uh, which actually has. roads more paved and gravel roads per capita than I think almost anywhere in the state. [00:06:26] Craig Dalton: Absolutely. And then that that first event was called Bogs, and where was that located? [00:06:32] Carlos Perez: uh, it was actually wasn't in Sonoma County, it was just outside of Sonoma County in little town of Cobb. In this demonstration state Forest called Boggs. and we'd gone mountain biking up there a bunch in the past, and so it's about an hour and 15 minutes outside of Santa Rosa. [00:06:51] Craig Dalton: It's such a great spot. I mean, you talk about a riding in Annadale, getting, getting you hooked. If you have the opportunity to ride in bogs, you'll also get hooked on mountain biking. It's just so good up there and I had the pleasure of doing that event. God, it was must have been eight or 10 years ago, I feel like. [00:07:08] Carlos Perez: Yeah, bogs. There's a, a lot of history with us and bogs, you know, we, uh, resurrected mountain bike racing there. When we first produced our eight hour event, there had been a multi-year hiatus of mountain bike racing in that space before we came along. And then that event ran for 10 or 11 years before the valley fire blew through that area and just decimated the entire forest. And so it was off limits. Probably three years, four years at least before we were able to actually go back and host the event again, which it returned last year for the first time in, in a long while. Actually, I take that back, I think it was closer to seven years that nobody had been riding or racing in bogs. So that was a big milestone for us to be able to go back and get back to our. [00:07:58] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I remember the word spreading amongst my local bike community that it was back and people were super stoked cuz I think everybody has great memories from racing at bogs. It's such a fun place to ride and doing an eight hour event, whether it's solo or where the teammate is. Always just something that's special. [00:08:15] Carlos Perez: Yeah, it really is. It's, there's so much camaraderie and hanging out and you know, taking it casually or taking it seriously. It is such a good mix of racing and fun. Um, there really, for me, there's no event that's more fun than our eight hour mountain bike races. [00:08:38] Craig Dalton: Yeah, there's just like, you know, it's, there's an interesting dynamic when you're doing one of these events with a partner. Because you can decide, you know, the laps are typically 45 minutes or an hour in length. You can decide to do two laps, one lap. If you're tired and your partner wants to keep going, you can do that. There's all kinds of strategy that just makes it fun. And there's rules around obviously, like how and when you cross the finish line within that eight hours that come into play. And so you have to have a little strategy in in your mind as you start to figure out your lap times. [00:09:10] Carlos Perez: Yeah, there's tons of strategy around it. It's really cool you see people coming through going, trying to ask us like, should they go back out for another lap? And we're trying to figure it out and you know, we've got it down to a science where like, you do need to go cuz somebody's like nipping at your heels and if you don't and they do, it's game over. You go from first to third pretty quick. [00:09:30] Craig Dalton: Yeah, exactly. So that's amazing. So from that or original sort of beginnings of like, Hey, I'm willing to throw my hands up because I think I can produce an event. I'm willing to do this as a fundraiser. What was the path towards you doing it again and, and then expanding to other events? [00:09:47] Carlos Perez: Well, I, I, after that first event, I definitely had to do some soul searching because, you know, I had a full-time job as a software developer and it paid. L. Um, but I was still young and I just, um, I saw an opportunity to do something that I was really passionate about and I had some close friends really pushing me to try and. achieve that, and they're like, basically, we're gonna disown you if you don't take a stab at this. And so I took a big risk and I kind of threw all my chips at race production because I just loved it. I loved what it did for the community. I loved that we were able to raise money for a good cause. It just had, uh, all the good stuff around it. it didn't feel like work. So it was that second year, after that second year that I decided, you know, I need to really take this seriously because if I don't, that opportunity's gonna pass me up. And so I took a risk. Uh, I quit my job, cold Turkey, and, you know, kind of lived, uh, hand to mouth for a while, uh, figuring it out. And then we just, it just grew, you know, what we were doing made a lot of sense. I brought on my first. . And then my second, and then, uh, Levi Leipheimer lived in the area. We were a super small production company at that time, and we were only doing some small mountain bike races and cross races, and he wanted to, he had this idea of putting on a Fondo because him and a friend of his, uh, you know, were on a ride and his friend being Italian was telling him about these amazing events that they have in Italy. And he's like, you know, Levi, you should do that. Uh, through, again, a mutual friend through Yuri. Uh, somehow Levi came to us, uh, and, um, we said, yeah, we're, we can do this. Nobody had ever done that in the United States actually before. We were the first big grand Fondo on US soil. And, uh, well, I guess technically the second. There was one in San Diego that had happened a year prior and no one really knew about it. It was, it was relatively. [00:12:06] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I feel like it, it's impossible not to know about the Levi's Grand Fondo if you ride a road ride road in California, but I imagine that statement probably holds for almost the entire US at this point. It's such a popular road, grand Fondo. [00:12:21] Carlos Perez: yeah, yeah. And it exploded. You know, we went the very first year we had 3,500 people, and it was in the heyday of Levi having, uh, he was heading into winning his third tour of California. So he was huge in California. and a very popular cyclist at the time. So it was the right timing. So there was, there was kind of that golden moment for us where we had to work really hard to do something really big and really outside of the box. And we grew really fast, uh, like from a production standpoint. It forced us to grow up really quick. [00:12:56] Craig Dalton: Yeah, what is, what does that look like? Just to explain to the listener and frankly myself as well, for event production, what type of organiz, what are, what are you doing at the event, and what type of equipment do you need to own in order to provide these services to something like Levi's Grand Fondo? [00:13:13] Carlos Perez: well, you've got some event organizers that maybe are purely volunteer based and they're kind of scrapping to pull together as much rental equipment as they can and outsourcing a lot of it to produce. And then you've got other nonprofits like the Santa Rosa Cycling Club, which own a ton of equipment that they've just amassed or built over the years. and multiple trailers that they'll use to move things out to produce stuff. every race organizer. And I, I always, I find this topic really interesting because as race organizers we do talk to each other and we share ideas, uh, on things like simple stuff like how are you calculating how much water you need to have at an aid station and what mechanism we're using to transport that water out there? Cuz it's heavy, right? And it takes time to fill up a lot of jugs versus it doesn't take as much time to fill up one big jug. You know, how are you getting it out? That kind of stuff. The, the logistics behind the scenes, I think people, they don't have enough information to really appreciate what goes into producing an event and setting up an aid station and marking a course. Um, but we have, I mean, we're, I'm in my office right now, which is adjacent to a, a warehouse full of equip. Ranging from course stakes to snow fencing, to stage material, to water jugs, to weight down tents, the tents, the tables, the chairs, the timing equipment, um, the arch to make stuff look fancy, and the list goes on. We've got a lot of equipment too that we use, electronic equipment that we use for radio communications and for R F I D timing tags. and it's just a lot of weird stuff too. It's not the kind of stuff that you would see in like a typical business. [00:15:06] Craig Dalton: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think it's important to note, I mean, everybody, when you go, it's easy to think of like, oh, I'm just putting it together, a group ride. And when you're doing that for 20 people, there's, there's next to no infrastructure that's involved in that. But anybody who's been to one of these events, you start to look around and you see like, oh, the aid station has a table there. And oh, there's this massive container of water that somehow got it out into the wilderness. Someone needs to do that and someone needs to provide the equipment. Uh, it's a really fascinating space and I think more and more as I interview event organizers, I'm uncovering that there are entities like bike, bike monkey in other states and other places that are carrying the load for lots of these events in the background. [00:15:49] Carlos Perez: Yeah. A lot of people will get in touch with us and say, you know, we, we wanna produce a bike race, but we really don't know where to start. Um, and, and a lot of times it starts with the vision of what it is that you wanna produce, but a lot of times people don't, they underestimate how far into the weeds you really need to get simple things. you know, putting a label on a, on an envelope and putting the rider's information inside of that label and then putting the stuff in the packet so that you can streamline packet pickup or the process of capturing their information in a way that, uh, makes that whole experience smooth. Because it starts when you show up. If you have to wait two hours to get your packet because the line's too long, well, something's not right already. Little, little tons of, little, little details that you really. , uh, there's no school for this kind of stuff. That's the, I think the thing that probably is one of the most unique characteristics that all event organizers probably share is we all learn, learn through experience and through trial and error, working events and seeing what does and doesn't work. And that's, that's one of the crucial components. You have to be the type of person that's willing to just continu. Bumble and fail and try to make corrections, and you have to stay committed to that. Cause if you're not, then you're, you're just not gonna make it. It's, it's too much learning that has to happen on the job. [00:17:25] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. It's a big lift to put on any of these events. So you were talking about how Levi's, grand Fondo kind of was a big break in terms. Pushing you guys to create more infrastructure, more discipline, understand how to manage a 3,500 plus person event. When did gravel start to become part of the pitcher for bike monkey? [00:17:47] Carlos Perez: Well, interestingly, we started doing gravel. In 2012, so before it really exploded, right? And it was because of Levi's Grand Fondo, Rebecca Rush came to that event as a guest and at the end of it just came up to us and said, Hey, this was amazing, and I wanna do something like this in my hometown of Keem, Idaho, but I want you guys to help me do it. I want to do it on gravel, on dirt roads. And we're like, that sounds amazing. Yeah, let's do it. And so we actually started Rebecca's Private Idaho with her, and we ran it for two years. At the time, we weren't really a consulting company, we were in the pattern of just building our own events from scratch and putting them on. And so we weren't structured the right. To continue to run that event. So we stepped away and let her run with it on her own. And she did that for about seven years and then came back to us last year and was like, can you guys please, please, please come back and run this event for me? Because it's really hard to do and we just need a solid team. While over that nearly decade that passed, we did become a consulting. and, uh, we came back and, and produced it last year and we're producing it again this year. And it, it's amazing and it, it feels right at home with us and for her. And so we're super excited about it. But that was where we started our first gravel event. And then gravel kind of exploded everywhere. And the next one that we did, um, officially was, uh, you know, Sagan Fondo, Truckee Gravel. , which takes place on June 10th of this year. [00:19:48] Craig Dalton: Interesting. So let, yeah, let's go back to that origin story cuz I think it's so interesting. You had mentioned to me offline that obviously like being in this region, the idea of putting on an event out of Truckee had been in your head for a while. Let's talk through like. What, what transpired prior to Sagan's team contacting you, and then what was that like to get that call? [00:20:11] Carlos Perez: Yeah, it, it's funny, I mean, I always find myself looking back and going, wow, how did the stars align for this? Like, what was it that caused us to go up and start looking around in Truckee for gravel roads to, you know, to go and ride? And it was just, uh, some rides that I had seen people. , just a couple people do. They were like, wow, check this cool stuff out north of Truckee. And then, um, you know, that's when the gravel scene was starting to pick up a little bit. But in Sonoma County, we don't have a whole lot of gravel. There's, there's gravel roads, but it's not like you have in other parts of the state. But we also knew through experience that in order for an event to have teeth, we needed to have a place that appealed to. the family component. So we started looking at different towns and we love Truckee and you know, we've been up there so much and it's just, uh, it's got so much going for it. It's got such a cool vibe and culture. The ski scene is amazing, but the Artisan Craft brewing at 50 50 Brewing company and some of the others like alibi and the um, the food scene and the bakery scene and the coffee scene and like the. Stuff and the outdoor stuff, it was all just, it's just bumping all the time. So it was like, you know, we really should start exploring trucking. And so we spent some time looking around up there. And then we got the call from uh, Peter Sagan's team of people. It was actually through Osmo. Ben Caprin over Osmo reached out to us and we've been associates for quite some time, and he said, Hey, Peter's looking to, Peter and his team are looking to do an event in the US and I recommended that it be you guys because of what you're able to do around here. And so we started talking and decided to choose Truckee. Uh, we actually persuaded them to move their off-road event to Truckee that they wanted to create and change it from mountain biking to. And that's where it actually was born. Uh, and then we teamed up with, uh, Kurt Gen Shaer, who formerly angry single speeder and now a Trail whisperer. He's a big in the mountain bike scene in that region and big with Sierra Trail Stewardship. Uh, he was really familiar with that area and lives in Verdi. and so him and I started exploring. He drove me all over these roads. They're basically his backyard. He's also built a lot of trail up there, and we came up with the gnarliest gravel event that I think anybody had ever really ridden at that point. We kind of nicknamed it Segundo you, you. Left Truckee and you went up into Tahoe National Forest and you went past, uh, a handful of pretty large reservoirs and you went up over Sarine Peak. This huge summit dropped down, uh, towards Loyalton. So you're getting way north now. And then we turned and we came up this trail, this Jeep Road, uh, called Badden off Canyon Road, and it was just, Freaking junkyard of people trying to ride these baby head rocks all the way back. So we definitely, like, I think, overshot in some aspects that first year. But again, everything's a learning experience and we were exploring, but anybody who did that first Saigon Fondo event definitely earned, earned their keep [00:23:54] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I. [00:23:54] Carlos Perez: someone capable of riding a gravel. [00:23:58] Craig Dalton: I know, I love it. I, I have a neighbor who is constantly scratching his head about gravel bikes and is like, why don't I just ride my hard tail? And he always chooses his hard tail. And he happened to do that event on his hard tail, and he came back and he was like, this thing, this event was amazing, but I don't know how anybody wrote it on a gravel bike, [00:24:18] Carlos Perez: a lot of people did not ride that section on their gravel bike. And it was long. It wasn't like this, you know, moderate quarter mile long section of, you know, tough to ride stuff. It was probably two miles of climbing on just really technical, uh, stuff, but beautiful country and, you know, I, I'm always intrigued by what our events do to like the Strava heat maps, because prior to us having that, Nobody was riding out there like probably old crusty dudes that, you know, don't use Strava. You had ridden out there for, you know, eons. Right. But nobody, uh, was going out there and riding with any frequency and now that place is just full of gravel bikes since that event. [00:25:07] Craig Dalton: So the, the original event was called, was it the Sagan Dirt Fondo? Am I recalling that correctly? And so that happened for, was it two editions under his branding? [00:25:18] Carlos Perez: Yeah, [00:25:19] Craig Dalton: Yes. and then it transitioned to the current Truckee Tahoe gravel. [00:25:24] Carlos Perez: yeah, yeah. Then it transitioned into Trucky, uh, well, it was Trucky Dirt Fondo, and then we rebranded Trucky Tahoe Gravel. But our short name and like the, the operative name is Trucky Gravel. Tahoe is, is part of our name because, um, There's the marketing tactic in there. A lot of people from outside of the state or even further outside of the country maybe aren't as familiar with Truckee. So it's important that we capture the region and our partners at Visit Truckee Tahoe, uh, are also influential in the naming of it. So we have a strong partnership with Visit Truckee Tahoe. . And so, uh, last year we rebranded the event Truckee Gravel and the long form name is Trucky Tahoe Gravel. [00:26:15] Craig Dalton: as you're talking about the event to rider from around the world, how would you talk about Tahoe as a destination? Let's set aside like the gravel experience, which I definitely wanna get into, but there may be people out there who just don't understand what Tahoe is. [00:26:32] Carlos Perez: Yeah. Well, I mean, the lake is the first thing that comes to mind. I mean, you have this ancient crystal clear lake. that has been there for millennia and it, it is one of the most beautiful places on the planet Earth. And it's surrounded by, you know, the lake sits at over 6,000 feet. Uh, and around that basin are the Sierra Nevada mountains. And, you know, they go up to, you know, 11,000 feet in some areas, and you've got ski resorts in every direct. and you've got mountain bike trails and hiking trails and off-road trails and climbing and hiking and you know, all the stuff that comes with being able to do something on the lake. And then you go almost any direction from Lake Tahoe and you have these other communities like Meyers and um, you know, Carson City and Reno and Truckee. Um, you've got. more of that in these towns that live up in this area. And so the entire region as a whole has an incredible mix of every type of outdoor activity that you could imagine. And it's just, if you appreciate the outdoors, it's all there. Everything, it's all there. And it's, you know, it's, it's a populated area because of. It's about as populated as it can get right now, especially during the pandemic. Like everyone went up there. We kind of missed our window cuz we were interested in, in getting a place up there. But that ship kind of sailed during the pandemic [00:28:17] Craig Dalton: Yeah, no, you're, I mean, you're a hundred percent spot on. It's such a magical part of the country that if you're interested in, if you enjoy being in the mountains, if you enjoy being around lakes, it's just stunning. , and to your point, like 360 degrees around that lake is mountains and ski resorts, and there's so much beautiful terrain regardless of whether you're on a bike or on foot that you can explore out there. One of the things you alluded to, and you certainly mentioned it to me offline very strongly, was as you think about producing events, you're not just thinking about the riders, you're thinking about their families and what the experie. They are gonna be having at these events. Can you just talk a little bit about that and why that's important to you? [00:29:02] Carlos Perez: Yeah. Well, so there, there are a lot of different types of events. There are events that are designed for the The Racer that's chasing points, right. And they're just like, there's an event every single weekend. And. Sometimes they're just like in the event promoter's backyard, because it's easy to do that. You are gonna use the, the local park and you're gonna put on a cross race or a mountain bike race or a road crit. And those are great for the sport of cycling as a competitive sport. Um, we always have, um, strived to produce events that are a little bigger. Chasing points. We we're always, we've always had this mantra of putting on events that are appealing to what we call the influencers and not influencers like on social media, you know, influencers on Instagram or Facebook, but the influencers are my family members, so my kids, my. They might not race their bikes, they might not be able to participate in this event that I wanna go and do, but there's something in it for them. When you do it in a place like Truckee, or you do it in a place like the Wente Scout reservation, or you do it in a place like Carson City or um, you know, you name it someplace, that has a lot more going on for it. So I can be out racing my bike for four hours. and they might wait for me. They might go out to an aid station or they might just go shopping, or they might go get on the lake and wait for me, or they'll see, we'll see you at the brewery. Uh, we'll see you at the climbing gym. Uh, but then there's the before and after as well. So we stay there for multiple days and most people do. It becomes a destination for the whole family. as opposed to just another race that I have to somehow finagle time away to go and do that. And it's, I drive up, I do it, I turn around and I go back home. [00:31:06] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I feel like that's such an important component for so many of us gravel athletes that are, you know, not super concerned about the pointy end of the race. We're really looking to have a good. Had a hard day out there on the bike, but also wanna share time with our families and not make cycling. Always something that takes us away from home. [00:31:23] Carlos Perez: Yeah. And I think that that mentality has shifted as a whole too. It's not just, it's not just, uh, that we are focused on those events, but I think the appeal has shifted over the last few years, a little bit away from racing and a little bit more towards that whole experience that you get from going and having races, and you see that. You know, the conversations that a lot of pro-athletes are now having about, you know, I raced my bike for a while and that was important and it got me here, but I also wanna ride with my friends. Like, I started riding a bike as a kid because it was fun and I enjoyed it. And then I got serious. And being serious is exhausting, you know, it's like, it is like you can't, almost cannot have fun when you have to be so serious about bike racing and when you can let go of that a little bit at our events and not take it so seriously. There's a lot more room to enjoy yourself. There's a lot more room to be okay not standing on the podium and riding with your friends and just being there in the moment and, and experiencing what everyone else. [00:32:38] Craig Dalton: Yeah, a hundred percent. I took us on a little bit of a detour. You had started talking about how in that first year the course was maybe a little bit more technical than, uh, it is today. Can we talk about what the course will look like for 2023? [00:32:54] Carlos Perez: Yeah, totally. So, um, it's changed a little bit over the years, you know, not necessarily because. It had to, um, well, I guess in some, in some ways it, it did have to, there were some years where the snow was so deep that we just, we couldn't go over Sarine peak. Right. And so the elevation ended up having to be a little bit lower that year because the snow pack was too high. Ultimately, we pushed the event from. To a later date in June. And so we're in a pretty good spot now where unless it's like crazy snowy in March, we should be able to get over Sardine Peak. That's one of the signature high points on the courses that we design up there that um, you know, it makes sense to go up Sardine Peak. [00:33:45] Craig Dalton: And when you're, when you're, when you're getting up there, uh, Carlos, like what kind of terrain is that climb and is it like, you know, one of these long sustained efforts? [00:33:56] Carlos Perez: It is. Um, so once you get to the base of starting peak, you're at about 6,000 feet and it tops out just over 8,000 feet. And it, it starts off at like, you know, four or five, 6% grades. And then as you get near the top, you're pushing, you know, 11, 10, 11% pretty consistently. , you, you don't have to stay seated for this stuff, but it, you definitely are putting out some watts to carry yourself to the top of this climb. And then as soon as you get over the top, it is just a ripping, white knuckle descent all the way down. Um, about to the same elevation in the past. This year, there's a change. We're actually extending the course, so last year we were about 64 miles in length for that. this year we're gonna be 75, and so it's, or maybe it was 67. We've, we've increased it by several miles and we're going a lot further north towards Loyalton, and so that dissent off of Sardine Peak goes from 8,000 feet all the way down to 5,300 feet over the course. Probably 10 miles. So you just have this constant descent. It's such a reward to get that after finally making it to the top of Sardine Peak. And then once you get to that part just south of Loyalton, you turn and you climb a gradual, really well graded and maintained gravel road. And so your return isn't like, arduous, painful journey back. You can really get into a rhythm and warm yourself up and, and keep the pace going. Pretty good. [00:35:45] Craig Dalton: As we're coming down off Sardine Peak, is that, is it a fire road and is it, is it kind of loose? Are we, are we sort of white-knuckling scared, or [00:35:53] Carlos Perez: it [00:35:54] Craig Dalton: it pretty, pretty flowing? [00:35:55] Carlos Perez: can be rutted. And so it changes a little bit every year. And what happens is we go out there right before the race, like a couple days before the race and we're cutting down trees that have fallen. We're cutting down branches where, you know, maybe there's a spot where it's really bad, there's like a lot of rocks that we're exposed. We actually go out there and try to fix some of that stuff up where it might be deemed. Unsafe. Uh, and then we mark the crap out of it. So we've got a signed guy, this guy Cole Rasmussen, who goes out there. Um, this actually this past year, it was, um, it was an associate of his, went out there and, uh, marked the course over, over two or three days. And we take these big, you know, it's like, it's a big deal. We're not just putting. Uh, flags in the ground or hanging ribbon in the tree. We're driving a stake in the ground and then we're putting a big two foot sign on it with an arrow for each of the route colors telling you where to go, or that it says hazard or, you know, sharp turn or, you know, cattle guard things that are important. Um, for riders to not only be able to race safely, but also to make sure that no one gets lost, cuz it's hard to find 'em once they do. Um, and so anyway, I, I got a little off track with what we're doing out there. The course. On that diss descent off of Sardine Peak. Uh, it varies each year, but it can be a little bit hairy. And so we do advise people like really pay attention, try to control their speed because you can come around some areas where all of a sudden there are ruts, you know, and how, how that feels. How you pucker when you're like riding next to a rut that's like a train track and you're trying to stay out of it. [00:37:40] Craig Dalton: Sometimes you do exactly the wrong thing when you see those [00:37:43] Carlos Perez: you look at it, that's the problem. [00:37:46] Craig Dalton: Yep. Exactly. Yeah, I was looking at the course profile and I see that big prominent sardine peak, and then to your point, you actually looks like you descend to a lower elevation than kind of the baseline to begin with, and then you've got that one gradual bump and a few bumps, but largely kind of progressively downhill on the way back to the start finish. [00:38:10] Carlos Perez: Yeah. Yeah. And there is. , there's one descent. Uh, after you get back up to your next peak at about 7,000 feet. That next descent, uh, is a little harrowing. Also, it has some baby head sticking out of it and some ruts and things and roots and stuff. So it's definitely like an o hv road, not, not like a gravel road, but totally doable on a gravel. You just have to pay attention to where your line is. And like I said, we go out there every year with my beat up Nissan Titan, and we carry tools and we clean it up and get it as prepped as we can For the [00:38:48] Craig Dalton: I imagine for people listening, there's a couple camps. There's one people like me who are like, that sounds awesome. And there are others that are like, maybe I won't really like that part of this event. [00:39:00] Carlos Perez: we do not produce events that are easy. , we just don't, uh, there's, there's a sense of accomplishment. Having completed any one of bike monkeys races, whether it be a mountain bike race or a mixed gravel and road event like fish rock or hammer road rally, or a road event like Levi's, grand Fondo, or a gravel event like Truckee or Rebecca's private Idaho. There is always an element of pretty extreme challenge. We have shorter routes, right? We're talking about the big route right now. We have shorter options for people that do forego having to take on some of those tougher challenges. and that option's there. And there's even time cuts too. So if you don't make it, you know, to the base of starting peak by a certain time, you're not gonna be allowed to go back over that. Uh, we can't restrain you. You could climb over it if you wanted to, but your support is not guaranteed at that point. [00:40:05] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. And it's nice that you have the easy, moderate, and hard courses. Available for people. If you, when you think about kind of advising riders, and I know this is like a horribly tricky thing to do, but when you think about ad advising riders as to what sort of tires they should be thinking about running, what are you putting out there in the world about the the Trucky Gravel event? [00:40:26] Carlos Perez: Well, I mean, tire technology has changed a lot over the years, right? Like it's really improved. We used to, everybody used to think that, um, [00:40:36] Craig Dalton: I. [00:40:36] Carlos Perez: a big tire. Was gonna slow you down. Um, that's really not the case. And, and even just the science behind it really. Um, we, we advise you guys as big as, as you want, really. I mean, it's, uh, as long as you feel like it's fast rolling enough for you, the challenges that you're gonna see and running a small. on any of these events is that when you do get to the rough sections, you risk, uh, you take on more risk in losing control in an area, um, or pinch flattening. Uh, so, you know, and a bigger type volume tire allows you to run tubeless easier and that improves the quality of the race or the ride. So, you know, 40 C plus, uh, you know, easily, I wouldn't, I wouldn't go smaller than that. . Um, but some people do, you know, it really does come down to preference, but generally bigger riders are gonna want bigger tires and smaller riders might be able to get away with something that might be a little bit faster rolling on some of the flat stuff. But at the end of the day, I think the tire technology that we're dealing with today has improved so much that. you know, a good volume gravel tire is gonna be the perfect choice for this event. And we see people come out there on mountain bikes and do pretty good. Actually, you know, one of the, one of the, um, photos of the lead group on our homepage is you're scrolling down. Actually has a dude like with that lead pack, like on a mountain bike, just going for it. [00:42:11] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I, I mean to each their own, right. There's a lot of fast, hard tail mountain bikers out there that can keep up with the best gravel racers, I'm sure. when you think about, [00:42:21] Carlos Perez: is like one of the most common questions that we get is like, what tire do I pick? And honestly, like the, the, it's really up to the racer. Uh, the best we can do is explain the course profile and then you have to make your own choice. [00:42:37] Craig Dalton: Yeah. And look, I mean, I think at the end of the day, a lot of people. Just don't bother changing their tires and run what you brung, right? Run, run what you're comfortable with. There's no, no need to kind of spend money to kind of get somewhere you don't need in your home terrain. That said, I'm, I'm with you. Like I enjoy the bigger tires and certainly on those descents with baby heads, like it's just nice to have that volume to be able to slam through things even if it's not purposeful. [00:43:03] Carlos Perez: I think at the point where people start asking and trying to make critical decisions around tire. You're almost splitting hairs at that point. You're really getting into the, to the nitty gritty of like, how am I gonna get that little extra edge what it comes down to. I mean, unless you're on, like, you're talking about running 30 c you know, slicks on your bike, on road bike, then you know, maybe that's a little extreme, but, uh, you know, we're talking like mountain bike size tire versus like a, a bigger gravel size. [00:43:39] Craig Dalton: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm always like, for me, that performance edge is just around comfort and control, and I'll error that wave over speed any day of the week, even though I totally agree with you. Like the modern high volume tire is not any slower than some of these smaller tires at all. [00:43:56] Carlos Perez: Yeah. [00:43:58] Craig Dalton: Yeah. When we talk about sort of the racing element of this event, like is that something you're leaning into? Is that something that you're kind of craving as an event promoter to get the fastest men, men and women around to the table and, and see them throw down? Or is that a, a secondary consideration for the event? [00:44:16] Carlos Perez: For me, that's secondary. Uh, I've never been one of the camp to really invest in. Making sure that the professional road racer with a ton of followers is showing up at our events. I wanna make the events appealing enough that they, they want to be there. Um, and so, and there is a competitive component to these events and they often do end up standing on the podium, but I really want to cater to the families. because that's just how my business is built. It's really built around family experience and. Yeah. So we're not like the, we're not like the lifetime events where it's just hyper-competitive, you know, super like you're, we're . You don't really read about us in Bellow news that often cuz we're not catering to that professional market. We want professionals to come to our event and because they wanna be there and enjoy themselves, and many of them do. And we make sure they have a good time just like everybody else. And we try to put on a good event for them, but that's not our. that's not by design for us. We really are designing events that are, uh, meant for people to come and have an amazing time with their friends, with their family, and hopefully not take it too seriously. Um, but we do a professional scoring operation and we give away amazing awards. I mean, behind me and you know, I mean people are mostly gonna see this on nut or listen. On an audio podcast, but we work with graphic designers to make these posters for each of our events, and every one of 'em is fully custom. And this is kind of the touch that we put on giving awards away. Last year, Forte's Painter, I actually made, uh, We, we handmade, or I hand cast silver ingots because it's in the silver state and we gave away bars of silver that I made myself. That's the kind of stuff that people get to walk away with from our events. We don't do like cash prizes or, you know, stupid metals. Like everybody's got a drawer full of metals. It's useless, and I hate giving that stuff away. So we don't do it. You know, we give you something that's like either a work of. A real keepsake. Uh, occasionally we might do like a bottle opener, but we just, you know, people have enough junk. So we try to give people something useful for their efforts that they really feel good about, that we've put our heart into. [00:46:56] Craig Dalton: I love it. I noted one thing that I thought was interesting. It, it, it looked like on the site that the sort of the race, quote unquote, ends at the, before the last aid station. [00:47:07] Carlos Perez: Yeah. [00:47:07] Craig Dalton: Is that sort of purposeful because it's unsafe to race the last eight miles, or was there other intention there? [00:47:13] Carlos Perez: There's two reasons for it. Uh, one, uh, safety is important and you're in a very remote area when you finish. So you're finishing next to Boca Reservoir. next to a dam. Uh, part two is there. It's beautiful there. And we want people to be able to stop and maybe regroup with somebody that they were racing with before and do the high five and they get actually like a nice, uh, return back to the Riverview Sports Park where we have our festival. and they don't have to race it. It's on a shared use bike path, and it's important that we don't have racers going the opposite direction of a mom with a stroller and her kids or a dog walker. And so there's the safety component is number one, but number two, we get the added benefit of people being able to do a pretty decent cool down ride after they just throttled themselves for 50, 60 miles. [00:48:13] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I thought that was a fun concept as I was thinking about. It is nice to your point, to just be able to kind of reconnect with people you might have dropped or been dropped by a few miles back, and then just chill as you have a cool down and then get to the, to the sort of the end point. Just be ready to transition into enjoying the community. [00:48:33] Carlos Perez: Yeah, and Truckee Gravel is one of the few events that we have where there is a long sustained racing portion of the event. A lot of the events that we're producing now actually have segments. that you add up over time because it's actually really fun to, it's almost like how we ride with our friends in a group nowadays is we ride and then it's like we go hit a segment and then we regroup. and we ride together and we're bringing that element to a lot of our events and legitimizing it by accumulating segments. And what it means is that you race for a little while, but then you ride with your friends and then you race for a little while and you ride with your friends and it makes the whole experience so enjoyable because you still race, but you don't have to race the entire time and destroy yourself. But with Truckee Dirt Fonda, we do have more of a traditional longer duration race, and I think that's important. You know, each event we evaluate for what the best experience is gonna be, and Truckee's one of those where we want people to really go out there and work hard. [00:49:34] Craig Dalton: Fun. And final question, Carlos, around the post-race experience there, I think you mentioned it was Riverside Park. What, what is it like, what's the, what should the, uh, the riders expect at the end there? [00:49:46] Carlos Perez: Riverview Sports Park is right next to the Truckee River. And so people that are, you know, at that park can actually walk down to the river, which is super cool, you know, and there's a path that takes you down there and it's a really beautiful area. But the park itself, uh, is a pretty neat facility. There's lots of trees and shade and grass and. It's next to this awesome bike park that the Truckee Bike Park organization has been building over the years. Uh, Brooks Millon, uh, has, has, and, uh, a partner of his have been building this thing and it's amazing and you can. Take your mountain bike or your cross bike or your gravel bike and ride on, uh, the pump track or these features and just, it's a real cool skill building thing. And they have events there. There's a little pump track for kids. So, uh, it's really is like a, a cycling maker. Mountain bikers make a. It's a really neat place to finish the race at and we're actually partnering up with them this year and we're gonna do some really cool stuff. Activations with that bike park that's part of Riverview Sports Park. [00:50:58] Craig Dalton: Fun. And then is, is there, are there food and beverages available at the end there? [00:51:02] Carlos Perez: Oh yeah, absolutely. We, uh, we always have a beer partner that, um, you know, both NA and traditional beer. So we've been working with Best Day Brewing Company, uh, and Truckee. We've worked with 50 50 Brewing Company and, you know, they're right there. Obviously, uh, that changes up every year. So we might have another partner this year. and then we bring in some really cool food trucks to make sure everybody's fed well afterwards. I think we had three different options for folks last year. Uh, we usually have some music going and it's just a really cool atmosphere to hang out and, and kind of recap the day. [00:51:41] Craig Dalton: That's awesome, Carlos. Thanks so much for giving us this overview of everything that Bike Monkey's about. I know we only touched on probably like a quarter of the events you have your hand in, so I definitely encourage people to go check out the Bike Monkey site. I'll link to it in the show notes. I also very much appreciate the intention that you've put into all these events and how you make. Really a community experience in the way that, you know, I certainly look for in events. So thanks for all your hard work over the years. [00:52:11] Carlos Perez: Yeah, of course. Craig, thanks for talking to me about it and letting us kind of tell a little bit about our story [00:52:17] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Awesome. And thanks for getting everybody stoked on, uh, trucky Tahoe Gravel 23 [00:52:22] Carlos Perez: Is the place to be on June 10th. [00:52:25] Craig Dalton: That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Thank you for joining us and big, thanks to Carlos for a putting on all these great events over the years and B for working so hard to make the Truckee Tahoe gravel event. So amazing. Another. Thank you. Goes out to dynamic cyclists for supporting the show. I remember you can use the code, the gravel ride@dynamiccyclists.com to get 15% off your order. They have monthly and annual subscriptions available. If you're looking to connect with me, please join the ridership. That's www.theridership.com. That's a free online cycling community for gravel cyclists. If you're able to support the show, please visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride or ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated and helpful in our discovery. Until next time. Here's to finding some dirt under your wheels.

In this week's episode, Daniel Friebe is joined by Rob Hatch and Lionel Birnie, fresh back from his trip to the GP La Marseillaise for the start of the French season.  We round up a flurry of racing over recent days, including that curtain-raiser in Marseille, and exchange hot takes about what we've seen so far in Argentina, Saudi Arabia and Spain. We also reflect in greater detail on an emphatic start to the season by two teams, Intermarché Circus Wanty and Team DSM, with contrasting approaches to rider recruitment in particular.  In the final part of the episode, we ponder the news announced by Peter Sagan last week - that 2023 will be his final campaign in the sport's biggest races. What was Sagan's impact, what is his legacy and what chance is there of a Monumental swansong? The Cycling Podcast is supported by Supersapiens and Science in Sport. The 11.01 Cappuccino Our regular email newsletter is now on Substack. Subscribe here for frothy, full-fat updates to enjoy any time (as long as it's after 11am). Supersapiens Supersapiens is a continuous glucose monitoring system that helps you make the right fuelling choices. See supersapiens.com Science in Sport The Cycling Podcast has been supported since 2016 by Science In Sport. World leading experts in endurance nutrition. Go to scienceinsport.com to see the whole range. Babbel Babbel makes learning a language fun and listeners can get an additional six months free with the purchase of a six-month subscription at babbel.com/play with the promo code CYCLING MAAP The Cycling Podcast x MAAP collection is available now. Go to maap.cc to see the full MAAP range. D Vine Cellars To order The Cycling Podcast Highlights case, or any of the cases commemorating the 2022 Grand Tours visit dvinecellars.com Friends of the Podcast Sign up as a Friend of the Podcast at thecyclingpodcast.com to listen to more than 60 exclusive episodes. The Cycling Podcast is on Strava The Cycling Podcast was founded in 2013 by Richard Moore, Daniel Friebe and Lionel Birnie.

In this week's episode, Randall has Josh Poertner on to talk aerodynamics. In a wide-ranging conversation, the two touch upon Josh's time as Technical Director at Zipp, involvement in the development of computational models for rotating wheels, early collaboration with Cervelo founders Phil White and Gerard Vroomen, founding and leadership of the product brand Silca and The Marginal Gains Podcast, and ongoing consulting work with elite athletes and teams. Silca Website  Marginal Gains Podcast Episode Sponsor: Logos Components  Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: Silca - Josh Poertner [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist. This week on the show, I'm handing the microphone back to my co-host Randall Jacobs. Who's got Josh Portner, the CEO of Silka on the shout out a wide range in conversation about the sport and high performance. Many of you may be familiar with the storied Silka brand. It's been around for close to a hundred years. But josh took over back in 2013 with a mission of merging the highest quality materials and craftsmanship with cutting edge design and manufacturing When you visit the Silca website, you notice a tagline, the pursuit of perfection, never settling, always improving. And I think that embodies how Josh approaches the sport. . So I'm excited to pass you over to Randall to dig into this conversation. Before we jump in i want to thank this week sponsor logos components Yeah, I've been itching to get back on a set of six 50 B wheels, and I've been waiting for my logo's components, wheels to arrive. They literally just arrived last night and I'm super stoked. But yet disappointed because I have to go away for the weekend and I won't be able to actually ride them until sometime next week. I chose the Atara six 50 B model. As you know, I'm sort of big on the big tires, big fun philosophy. So I've been eager on my unicorn, which I've been riding on a 700 SEASET for a while now. To get into the six 50 bees again and see what a six 50 by 50 combined with that rock shock fork is going to yield for me on the trails here in Marin. You guys may remember. Me sitting down with Randall, talking about what makes a great gravel wheel set and everything that went into these logos component wheels. I encourage you to go back to that conversation because whether or not the logo's wheel set is for you or not. I think Randall does an excellent job of teasing out. All the various considerations. You should be having when considering buying a gravel wheelset, It is no small expense when getting into a carbon wheel set, but the team at logos has endeavored with their direct consumer model. Uh, to make it as affordable as possible and make them as durable and high performing as anything out there on the market. I written wheels designed by Randall for the last three years. So I'm super excited. To see his latest vision come to fruition. With these new wheels and I'll have them underneath me soon enough. I encourage you to check them out@logoscomponents.com. Randall's also an active member of the ridership community. So if you have questions for him, feel free to join us over there at the ridership and connect with other riders. I seen people paying that their wheels have arrived so you can get some real, real people answering your questions. About whether they're enjoying the wheelset and how they perform, et cetera. And I'll have more on this in future additions. At this point. I'm going to hand the microphone over to Randall. And i hope you enjoy this conversation with josh [00:03:30] Randall: Josh Portner, thank you for joining us on the podcast. This is a conversation I've been looking forward to for quite some time. Some deep bike nerdy is probably about to ensue, so, uh, let's dive, let's hope. Dive right into it. [00:03:43] Josh: Well, thank you for having me. Always, always up for some deep bike. Nerdy. I like that. [00:03:49] Randall: So a number of our listeners will already know who you are, but just give folks a high level summary of what you do now. [00:03:55] Josh: Oh gosh. So I own Silca, um, or I own Arrow Mind, which, uh, owns the Silca brand and trademark, um, and, and all that that entails. And then we also have a, uh, we own Marginal Gains, which is a podcast and a YouTube channel. And, um, Yeah, our goal is to, a mind works with a lot of pro riders, pro teams, world tour teams. Um, you know, we do everything, Excuse me. We do everything from, you know, performance consulting, uh, modeling, uh, you know, setting up our record attempts for people or, or helping them design our record attempts. Um, you know, we do tire pressure work with pros. We do equipment choices for teams. We think some of the most interesting stuff we do, um, is around where like, uh, teams or national federations don't trust the equipment they're getting from somebody. And they'll come to us and say, you know, the, you know, bike brand X says that this does this, and our writers don't think so. Can you tell us what's true? And. We'll find a way to make that happen. So we, we've had some pretty interesting ones of those with, uh, particularly around the Olympics with the national federations. You know, no, nobody wants to have another Under Armor speeds skating suit, uh, situation, , right? Where all the, all the athletes think something is true and therefore it becomes true and, and nobody knows. And so, um, you know, so we do a lot of that. Arrow mind does that, essentially. And so that's a lot of the performance work I was doing in my old world. I was technical director at ZIP for almost 15 years. Um, and, and then Silca is the product arm of the company. Uh, that's probably how, you know, most people know us. You know, we make pumps and tools and, and, but we also make a lot of crazy things that people look at me and go, Oh, where the hell did that come from? Well, that probably came from some project or another. We did it in the Arrow Mind side of the business, Um mm-hmm. . So that's how we've gotten into sealants and lubricants and 3D printing and, and all sorts of other craziness. Right? That's sort of how the one flows into the other. And then, you know, Marginal Gains is a podcast and, and YouTube channel where we talk about it all and, and we, we typically with a, a team or a company have like a two year. Secrecy period on a technology. And then after that we can do something with it and, and talk about it and tell the story. So, you know, it's always, it's always fun to go through those periods where like, Oh, thank God we can talk about that now, . Cause you know, we're talking about it internally all the time. And, and you're like, Oh, can we put that in the podcast? I don't know. So, so that, that's what I do now. We, I, I play with bikes basically. [00:06:34] Randall: Very, very cool. And, um, when you talk about the consulting work you do, is this kind of full stack performance consulting, is it very a focused, is it all technical sides, including say, like bearing drag or, or things like this? Is it, um, obviously positioning falls into Arrow Nutrition. Like where, where do you, ooh, where does your domain physiology start? [00:06:57] Josh: And I draw the line at physiology, you know, there's a whole, there, there are people who are, are like my equivalent in that world. And, and my God, I can never even dream to. You know, clean their shoes. So, um, no, you, you need someone to talk physiology, you know, And I'll, I'll pull my phone out and we'll call Allen Li or somebody, you know, Yeah. With a bunch of contacts. But, uh, you know, Alan's one of my favorite go-tos for things like that and be like, Oh dude, I've been over my head help . You know, [00:07:21] Randall: he, he's, um, he's actually been on the pod before, but Craig interviewed him, so I might bring him on in the future to do, you know, my, my more kind of nerdy type of interview. Alan's great. Yeah, no, [00:07:31] Josh: he's, he's a lovely guy. He's a lovely guy. And, and I just love, I mean, he, you know, like I find myself pretty quickly sometimes getting into places where people's eyes just glaze over, like, what the hell is this guy talking about? And, you know, I love that Alan can do that to me in about 30 seconds, you know, we're talking about the stuff that he does. You're like, Oh, whoa, shit, way over my head way. I, I didn't even recognize the last four words that you used in that sentence, . And, uh, so it's, it's awesome to be able to be surrounded by people with that. But no, you know, we. The stuff that they come to us for. I mean, you know, when I left sip and started soak, of course everybody and their brother, you know, came and said, Oh, design us a wheel. I'm like, well, like I can't do that for a couple years. But also I'm kind of just done with that, you know, like I've lived that life. I, you know, it, it was fun. But, you know, we, we continually updated wheels for 15 years, but it, it really is kinda like doing the same thing over and over again, you know? And, and so it just wasn't fun for me. So, you know, they'll come and say, um, you know, help us design this cockpit, or we, we do a lot of, with our, our in-house, uh, 3D titanium printing, we do a lot of custom cockpits for, uh, teams, riders, things like that. You know, where we laser scan the rider, get the position, lock that down to the wind tunnel, design the part, 3D print it, um, you know, stuff like that, that, that's really exciting. We, we'd get a lot of, you know what, um, You know, help us optimize for this time trial at the tour or the Olympics or whatever, where, you know, what tires should we run and we can, we have systems and tools and, and spreadsheets and a million other things that we can, um, Yeah. Help, help them determine. And then a lot of times we, you know, we get companies coming to us, um, really just wanting to know, like, you know, if, like, which of their sponsor products should they use and when should they go off sponsor? You know, you'll see that a lot at like, the tour where, excuse me. Um, you know, like they, they ride the sponsor correct product, you know, 98% of the time, and then they're gonna sneak it in here or there when it's really critical. So, you know, what, what are those really critical points? And then, you know, if, if they're gonna risk getting in trouble or outright get in trouble, like it needs to be worth it, right? And so they might come to us with like, okay, you know, we need. I need a time trial tire for this rider for this day. You know, what should we do? And, and we'll help him with that. But yeah, you know, if you, if you were a, a brand, uh, or a world tour team there, or approach our athlete that wanted to go to the win tunnel, you know, you might pay us to come along. Um, a lot of what I do too is kind of fun is just act as like a fly on the wall in these team to sponsor interactions. You know, I think I was probably at half a dozen wind tunnel tests last year where I really had pretty much nothing to contribute other than being the neutral third party in the room, um mm-hmm. you know, so that everybody was comfortable that everybody was. Comfortable . [00:10:26] Randall: Well, I would imagine there's a mix of the, uh, the political, if you're talking about, you know, what should be using our own sponsors gear versus slipping something else in all the way to, um, balancing the competing goals of say, like comfort and pure power output on the bike versus aerodynamics. Um, if you're talking about a time trial position. Yeah. [00:10:47] Josh: Oh yeah, for sure. And, and I think even down to, you know, and I think as much as we love to talk science and testing and, and try to be as scientific as possible, I mean, this stuff is really, it's emotionally hard. It's politically hard. It's, you know, companies will bring new equipment in, they're with their engineers. I mean, those guys and girls want that stuff to work so bad. And you know, sometimes you just see things coming out where, Oh yeah, that's clearly faster. And you're like, Well, actually, the way I would interpret that is it's probably about. The same, um, or mm-hmm. , you know, let's, let's rerun that test or, um, you know, it's always, I don't know, it, it, they, they like, people like to get themselves in these loops where, you know, Oh, we did this and it's 10 seconds faster and it's that, And I feel like back in the, you know, when I was with zip, we did this a lot during the Lance Armstrong area and he was writing our disc and, and we were coming in as consultants for the first probably five tours or whatever. And um, you know, every wind tunnel test you'd get to the end and they would have this chart that's like, we just made him 90 seconds faster. And it's like, look guys, that. There is no 90 seconds faster. I mean, you know? Mm-hmm. like, like that is not gonna happen. You know, you, you just did a whole bunch of stuff that's not sustainable that he can't hold his head like that. Mm-hmm. that helmet tails gonna come off the back, you know, I mean, cuz he, people do things like, Oh, oh, the helmet tail moved, rerun. You're like, Yep guys, when you ride in the real world, like the tail's gonna move. Like you don't, you know, people like to, they select data, um, without even realize they're selecting data. And so, you know, it is, it's just good always to have a third party in the room. Um, you know, it's kinda like funny story, you know, back to, you know, my zip days, how Firecrest came about, you know, Firecrest was literally the name of the prototype that, that kind of blew all of our minds. And the reason the prototypes had weird bird names was that we had to double blind them across engineers because you just didn't want anybody. Kind of, you know, having an effect on their product, right? I mean, we all, you know, we all fall in love with our children, right? . And, and in this world, like you, you can't love your children. Um, and you have to be willing to kill them when they're not good. And, um, you know, we would do this double blind thing where we would like assign them all a number and then we would assign bird name, these bird names a number, and then we would randomize it and then they would get all put up. And then nobody really knew whose idea was what, when you were in the tunnel. Um, that's necessary, right? Cause you're, you know, you can be your own worst enemy at that stuff. I think we've, you know, we've all been guilty of that a time or two in our lives. But, uh, you see it all the time, particularly in these performance, um, improvement coaching type things where, you know, people just wanna will something into existence even when it's not. Yeah. [00:13:38] Randall: Well, and I can see, um, you know, the marketing oftentimes has it much more, uh, presented, much more like a, you know, this is just, it's physics. It's more, it's more exact, it's more, um, it's more controlled. And, um, there are competing variables, particularly when you have, you know, a monkey in the middle. You have to, this, this, you know, this animal needs to be comfortable. This animal needs to be fueled, This animal needs to be able to control this machine through a varied environment. And that varied environment may be varying in real time if weather changes or things like this. Um, and so there's just all these competing interests. And so when you see, you know, I often laugh at like, You add up all the different arrow benefits that, you know, different companies claim for components and you should be doing. Right. Right. You know, you might be looking at, um, uh, relativistic effects potentially at some of the speeds you'd be able to achieve. Uh, Jen, just like how, how many watts can be saved. Totally. Being a little bit facetious there. [00:14:37] Josh: Yeah. No, no, it's totally true. I mean, and I still have this photo somewhere, I think I even showed it a couple years ago on social media. But as this, this really great photo that I love that ended up, um, on the wall at the Texas A and Wind tunnel, but it's me with next to Lance Armstrong, um, in the, what became the Nike Swift spin suit, um, that had been flown down there from, you know, Seattle. And it's, uh, oh God, the guy in from his book college or whatever he calls him, and then a guy from Nike, so it's the four of us. And I'm kind of standing there like doing, you know, like pointing at something on his back and it, like, a college student took it for the school newspaper and then they had him autograph it and it ended up on the wall. And so like, Oh, that's me. You know, it's kind of funny. But, but the real story there was that suit, you know, they were paying like 3000 bucks a meter for this suit. They'd been putting it on a mannequin in the tunnel. I mean, it was gonna save three minutes per 40 k. And you're just sitting like going, guys, like, I, I mean, just quick doing the math, like three minutes for Lance Armstrong, you know, like the guys already, That's not possible. And, and of course we get it. We put it on him. Um, the whole thing, you know, it, it's, it's cool, it's fancy, it was very red and it does nothing. I mean, it literally, we were, and the Nike people are there and they're like, Oh, that's not possible. It, it can't do nothing like whole. Let's run it again. Okay. Now get 'em out of it. Put 'em in the normal suit. Run that one. You're like, it, it just doesn't do anything. And, and they just kept going. Well run it again. Well do this. Let's, let's close pin it up. Let's tighten it. Let's, do, you know, I mean, I bet we, we lost two hours trying to make that stupid thing look like it would do anything. You know, And again, it's, it's just people being people and we've all done it. But [00:16:21] Randall: I hear like something of stages, of, stages of grief. Like, you have your baby and like first it's denial, and then you, then you have bargaining. Yeah. Yes. Put so much into this. Yeah, that's exactly, [00:16:32] Josh: that is exactly what it is. And, and you know, the, the crazy reality with that one was, you know, three months later at the tour, they launched it anyway, and they said it saved three minutes and he , you know mm-hmm. . And we, we. It, you know, I just had to laugh. I mean, I remember, you know him, you know, winning whatever one of the time, trials by like a minute and like going, No. So Nike's essentially saying he would've lost that time trial by two minutes had it not been, had he not been wearing that suit. Come on guys. Um, yeah. [00:17:00] Randall: Well, and I think that, that maybe that's, um, you know, headline number one from this interview is don't believe everything you read, especially if it's coming from a party, has a financial interest in it. [00:17:10] Josh: That is true. That is true. Yeah. I, I, I tell don't, don't even believe yourself. Right? I mean, truly like you, you are a bad, um, a bad predictor of things and, and you're a bad feeler of things and nobody wants to admit that. Um, but it's just true. You know, that's, I've been preaching that gospel for, for years. But, you know, I mean, 90, I, I would say 90% of the things you. That you feel when you're on your bike. Total, total crap. Um, and, and we know that cuz we, we've done blind testing with riders. I mean, like unbelievable world class rider. And if you blind them to what they're actually riding, they can't tell you almost any Yeah. Um, you know, all that perception, but still, but the stories away, the [00:17:56] Randall: stories we tell ourselves are powerful. There is a strong placebo effect. Oh, for sure. Uh, for sure. But it has to be acknowledged that that is the placebo. And if you actually had those beliefs about things that had genuine benefits, you would get both, You would get the actual [00:18:11] Josh: benefits. Yes. The, the most powerful thing in the world is a placebo that actually works. Right. , where you get, it's like a, it's a double whammy benefit. Um, and so yeah. That, that's where, you know, I mean, in a nutshell that's a lot of what, you know, I've made my career doing right, is trying to help, help sway people towards the, the, the placebos that, that actually do have a, a, a benefit for them. [00:18:34] Randall: So this has the conversation going in a slightly different direction than I was anticipating, which I'm really enjoying. So I've been, I've been diving into this lecture series from this guy Robert Sapolsky at Stanford. It's on, um, the, uh, uh, behavioral biology, and it's looking at all the different ways in which studies go wrong. And so there's like, you know, beliefs about something, uh, for a long period of time, you know, eminence, people in the field, uh, promulgate these, you know, these ideas. And then it's shown that, you know, the study was, was not, uh, taken, uh, done properly or what have you. And so I'm curious, let's dive more into things that go wrong in the study of aerodynamics and, um, maybe kind of the edge of, say, human performance where interfaces with aerodynamics [00:19:17] Josh: Hmm, ooh. Interest. So, I mean, a, a good. I would say career defining for me, example of that was, um, you know, we, from like 2009 to 2012, we were really all in on developing, uh, CFD for the, for bicycle wheels. And it, it just wasn't working right. Everybody was talking about it and showing papers, and, but I mean, it just, the reality was like the CFD just never looked like the wind tunnel. The curve shapes were different. The data was, we're, we're talking It [00:19:47] Randall: wasn't mid, mid [00:19:48] Josh: nineties, right? Oh, no, Mid, mid late two thousands. Yeah. Like mid, late, late [00:19:53] Randall: thousands. Okay. Yeah. And you're not using, you're having to develop something ground up or you're having to, uh, adapt something from Desso or, or one of these bigger [00:20:02] Josh: vendors. Yeah, So I think the question at the time was, you know, how do you, how do you really properly model the spinning wheel in, in flow that's also translating, right? And you look at. You know, all the CFD stuff with aircraft, um, you know, there's no rotational flow, you know, and then you look at, there's special models that people have built to look at, like, um, turbine jet, turbine engine combustion or whatever. But those are incredibly unique. And they're also, you know, there's RO flow rotating, but in a different access and Yeah. [00:20:36] Randall: The F1 guys perpendicular access. [00:20:38] Josh: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so, and then you got the F1 guys who weren't really modeling, um, they were modeling the rotation of the wheels, but they were doing it by modeling a rotational component at the surface of the tire. So you were, you weren't essentially like spinning the wheel, you were just saying, Oh, there's a induced rotation a about this surface. Um, which has been in the, the solvers forever. So [00:21:02] Randall: in interesting, this is taught because the, those wheels are traveling so quickly, especially the top of the wheel. If you're doing 200 miles an hour, the top of the tire is traveling at 400. And so you're having sign significant turbulence at that interface, right? Well, [00:21:15] Josh: and you, you have like Magnus effect, right? You're actually getting pressure differential top to bottom, um, you know, from , the direction of the wheel spinning. And so, you know, we, we could do stuff like that pretty accurately, right? You know, you could look at the, you know, a rotating baseball and, and predict the direction that's gonna curve. I mean, things like that were possible. But, you know, every single, and, you know, my God, I used to get, I still do occasionally, but I, I used to probably get 20 PhD papers a year from kids all over the world. Um, you know, Oh, what do you think of my paper on, you know, CFD of bicycle wheel? And we're like, Oh, it's beautiful pictures, but your data's crap. Um, . And it just wasn't figured out. And, and in 2009, I, I met a guy, Matt, uh, Godo, who's a triathlete, but he also worked for a company called FieldView. And they had built all of the CFD automation for, uh, Red Bull F one, um, and probably half the F1 grid, but his, his big account was Red Bull. Um, and he, I met him at Interbike and he had a paper that he was working on. He said, I think, I think I might have figured this out, but I really need to be able to like, Like, build a wind tunnel in the computer and then look at it so we can directly compare them back and forth. And, and so we, we did that. We published a paper at the a I a, which was at MIT that year, and it went over really well and people liked it. And we published another paper the next year, um, at, at the a i A conference. And that went well. And then we got this big grant, like an $80,000 grant from Intel, um, to really tackle this problem. Cause the, the head technologist at Intel at the time was a guy, uh, Bill Fry Rise, and one, one of the coolest guys I ever met. Um, you know, the kind of guy who, whose resume just has like a five year period that says like Los Alamos , like, [00:23:01] Randall: okay, you're cool. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Not, not allowed to talk about it. What do you do? Yes. Uh, yes, exactly. . But, [00:23:08] Josh: uh, but he was a cyclist and he was some senior, somebody at Intel. And, and, um, And they, they gave us this money and we, we, we really went hard at this and we ended up developing a, essentially all of the little nuance details. Uh, we did it in star ccm. We post processed it in field view. I think we processed it on like a thousand cores, which for 2010 was, you know, a lot. Right. [00:23:33] Randall: Um, and these are, these are, um, CPUs and not GPUs for that era. Right. A lot of the stuff of that era GPUs now, right? [00:23:40] Josh: Yeah. Yeah. I remember we, yeah, I mean, that was the beginning of, uh, that was the beginning of the cloud. It was pretty cool, like 2008, 2009, people were still traveling. I remember at one point in that process there was discussion that like, we might have to travel, um, to, Oh God, what is it? The, the university over there in Illinois had a huge, had like a 1200 core machine and they're like, Okay, we, we might have to go there and, and buy, you know, two days of time. And then as that was happening, cloud. Kind of the beginnings of cloud was there. And I remember we, we met a guy who had a cloud thing, and they had just been bought by Dell. And, uh, we were at a conference and he's like, Oh, no, you know, with our, our thing, What was that called? But, uh, with our thing, you, you can just do it like up in the ether. We're like, Whoa. You had never heard of that before. Yeah. Um, it was just exciting times and, and, uh, but, but we, you know, had this great team. We pulled it together. I mean, that's really where Firecrest came from, right? It was, it was largely designed using, um, Hundreds of iterations of capes predicted to be fast, uh, using this cfd. And, and ultimately we won. We, we became like, I think the first non university and non-governmental group to ever win a, uh, uh, innovation excellence award from the Supercomputing Society. So it was pretty cool. Salt Lake City's like this huge super computing conference and you know, it's like darpa, this and university of that. And it was like these four guys from this bike brand and, you know, was, uh, it was a pretty cool experience. But, but in that, so that's like a huge tangent. No, [00:25:17] Randall: no, this is, this is great. And, and just to take a, uh, stop for a second, CFD computational Fluid Dynamics software that is used to model complex multi-variate systems where there's second order effects and, you know, fluids and, and things like this. So anyone who's not, uh, who's not with us on that, like complicated software for complicated system models, in your [00:25:39] Josh: ideal world, it's like a wind tunnel on your laptop, right? In the, in the George Jetson's version of things. It, it's the wind tunnel on the laptop. And in the reality of things, it's kind of more like, eh, it's about as good as guessing most of the time. But, but, but sometimes it's really good at finding certain really specific things. So I won't, uh, I won't knock it too hard, but why the thing I wanna [00:25:59] Randall: dive in a little bit [00:26:00] Josh: here. Oh, go ahead. Yeah, yeah. Well, let me, so let me finish the, the thing that we discovered in this process that was super cool. Um, was that once we had all of these transient, we were solving for all these transients, um, and we really started looking at not just like the, you know, the, the side force or the yaw force or you think of um, you know, the whole thing with like wheels and handling, right? This all came out of this project cuz you could, you could predict the steering torque on the wheel, which, you know, none of the balances being used to test wheels at the time even had torque sensing, right? You had drag side force and lift, but none of them had the rotational components in there. And so that for us at first was like, oh shit, we've never thought about torque cuz we weren't measuring it. Right? It's sort of one of those, yeah, like you've biased your study all along, but then the big one was looking at the predicted, um, data and there were all of these, uh, harmonic effects. and we kind of looked at each other and we're like, Oh my God, every wind tunnel you've ever been in, Right? The first thing everybody discusses is, you know, what's the, what's the, the time across which you're taking the data and at what frequency? And then you're averaging that data, right? Cuz we're all after a data point. And you could look at the tunnel data and the CFD data, and when you pulled them out of their point form into their wave form, essentially you could see the harmonics kind of lined up, the frequencies match when, oh shit, we've been averaging out a really important piece of data for 30 years. You know, this harmonic thing is big. Like what's your, [00:27:39] Randall: your standard? So it's operating on a, it's operating on a frequency that is smaller than the sample rate. Or how [00:27:46] Josh: was it essentially? Essentially we were just idiots and we were just, we were just time averaging the all of that out. Right. I mean, it's, you know, if you need to Okay. Any wind tunnel you, you went to in the world and be like, Oh, well, we'll take, we here, we take data for 30 seconds at, you know, whatever, a hundred hertz, 60 hertz, 120, or whatever it is, and then we'll, we'll take an average. Oh, okay. That, that's fine. Got it. You're averaging out in there is real, um, uh, like amplitude changes, uh, largely due to vortex shedding is, as it turns out with bicycle wheels. But a lot of that high frequency handling stuff, particularly as wheels get deep, um, , sorry, I'm in, uh, I'm in our studio, which is off of our kitchen and somebody's lunchbox just, just leapt off of the top of the [00:28:34] Randall: refrigerator. Um, yeah, sometimes I'll have a niece or nephew come in screaming, so No worries. Yeah. So, but, [00:28:39] Josh: uh, but no, we, we realized there, there was a, a. About a factor of five difference in amplitude between wheels in terms of that, those oscillating effects. Right. Which typically it's just, it's generally vortex shedding. And the CFD can predict that really well, right? Where your little pressure builds up, sheds off, sets off a counter rotation that sheds off. Um, but as a, as a cyclist, you, you feel that as the wheel, you know, kind of oscillating left to right. Um, and we, and let's, let's for 20 years, you know, [00:29:12] Randall: Yeah. So you're just taking the, the lump, you know, 30 seconds averaged out data and saying, Okay, it gives you this amount of benefit and you're not seeing those. Um, I mean, really what we're talking about is, uh, you know, instability that may. Or, you know, otherwise result in, in control issues on the bike. And I want to take a moment to just like, define some terms, uh, because not, you know, many of our listeners are not overly technical. Um, but uh, I think some of these concepts are easy enough to get your head around, like, so, you know, describe at a very high level you're talking about vs. So, you know, maybe describe lader flow and flow attachments and vortices sheddings. How, how does this, how does this, uh, how can you understand this without a, a technical background? [00:29:59] Josh: Oh, those are awesome questions. Okay. So Lader LaMer flow is kind of what you. What the, the world wants you to think of in the wind tunnel. You see the wind tunnel picture and they've got like the, the 10 lines of smoke and they're all kind of flowing together cleanly and beautifully. That's, that's meant to, to evoke lam or flow, right. That if you were to drop a, a smoke or a particle in there, that they would all flow in lamini, you know, like sheets of paper. Um, yeah. Uh, so, so [00:30:29] Randall: it's going in a straight line. Smooth, [00:30:31] Josh: controlled, Predictable, yeah. Flow. And it, it follows the contours of the thing that it's flowing against. So, [00:30:38] Randall: so kinda like water flowing down a river sort of thing. It's not perfectly laminate, but it's all going roughly in the same direction. And there's not a lot of water [00:30:46] Josh: in a pipe disturbance, you know, would be in a pipe better example, presumably pretty laminate, right? And then you start to add stuff, you know, water in the river. Now you're, you're, you know, you've got a rock and now all of a sudden there's a disturbance and it starts to swirl. Um, and so you, you get into, you know, more complicated types of flow. I, I think the, the big ones, you know, for us to think about are, you know, most, so most drag that we deal with comes from, um, uh, pressure related things. So you either have like the, the high pressure on the front of the rider, right? The wind that you're pushing into this when you stick your hand out the car window, right? The mm-hmm. the air you feel hitting your hand, you know, that's, uh, that's a pressure drag, uh, in the positive direction. And then you have the flow, the vacuum in the back. Yeah. The flow will detach off of the object and that'll create a vacuum behind. And so that's a suction drag, um mm-hmm. . And then when you have something like vortex shedding, it's when, uh, the, the. Description I ever have for vortex sheddings. If you've ever driven an old car with, uh, like the metal antenna on the hood, you know, at some speed on the highway, that antenna starts vibrating, oscillating sideways, which is like the last thing on earth you think it would do, right? Like your brain's like, well, it should just keep bending backwards with speed. Mm-hmm. , why is it going sideways? Well, that's that you get this thing where you have a little, uh, a little curl of flow will kind of detach more on one side than the other, and that creates a side force. Mm-hmm. . But in doing so, the suction that that has now left behind will pull a similar vortex from the opposite side. Mm-hmm. . And that creates an opposite side force. And so you get these, see an oscillation, you get these oscillations and uh, you know, that's, it's huge in architecture and mm-hmm. , it, it's why you see so many of those super tall buildings or kind of have pyramid shapes or might have some sort of like, feature that spirals down them to, to kind of break that up. I, I live [00:32:46] Randall: in Boston. We actually have, um, a skyscraper here that was flexing so much, the windows were popping out. This is, you know, decades ago. And, you know, it's still, you know, they have this like funnel of air that's going through there and just the nature of the shape of it and how air gets funneled in, it was causing enough torsion to, um, you know, cause window de bonding. Um, so yeah. That's crazy. Uh, so then, you know, think applying this to the bike and particularly a wheel, um, you know, this is the biggest effect is, is presumably your front wheel where you're having this oscillation, this shift in pressure from one side to the other at a very high, high level, um, that's causing instability. It's making it so that you may lose control of the bike. It's not predictable. [00:33:34] Josh: Yeah. Correct. Correct. And, and the, the other thing we learned through CFD that it was doing, which is not obvious until you think about it, but so you think of the. So you might have, say it that the trailing edge of the front half of the rim, you're, you, you set up a little vortex shedding situation. Mm-hmm. . Um, and so you've got a little side force, but it's kind of at the, the trailing edge of the rim there. Right? So it's got a little bit of leverage on your steering, but the other thing that's happening is that alternating attachment and detachment of flow, um, changing the side force, but you're a side force at an angle. So there's a lift component, right? Which is how the drag is being reduced. And as that happens, what, what's also now changing is what we call like the center of pressure. And the center of pressure. You think of like the wheel from the side, like, like the sum, the aggregate of all the, the arrow forces on that has a center point about which it's balanced. It's kinda like a center of mass. Um, you know, so it's, it'd be center of pressure. Well, that center of pressure when you have. Shedding happening somewhere that's now moving forwards and backwards and very [00:34:40] Randall: rapidly [00:34:41] Josh: as well. Potentially, Yeah. Rather rapidly. I mean, and, and when you really look, look in on it, it, the frequency actually can be quite close to, um, the, uh, speed wobble frequency, right? Which is somewhere in that like three to four hertz range. Uh, which also happens to be really close to the frequency of human, uh, shivering, which is kind of cool's why you're more likely to, to speed wobble when you're really cold. Um, [00:35:05] Randall: and not everyone just push will have experienced speed wobble. But if, you know, if this is basically your, you, you hit a certain resonant frequency of, of the frame based on the frames geometry, uh, the head tube angle, the what are the factors that go into that, [00:35:20] Josh: Uh, it's top tube stiffness is big and so, yeah. Yeah. And it's actually this speed wobble's. Interesting. It's. It starts as a residency issue, but it's really a, it's a hop bifurcation and, um, a hop B. Okay. And so, yeah. And so what you have in a hop, uh, bifurcation is you essentially have two st two stability, um, would be the best way to think of it. And you are jumping from the one to the other. And so like, right up until that, so the [00:35:48] Randall: system wants to be in one state or the other, but not in the middle [00:35:51] Josh: and there's no middle. Right. And, and what's, what's so cool, like, like early in, um, uh, early in covid, you know, we were all talking about this, you know, what is it the are not value, the, you know, like if it's above or below one. And when you, you line that out that are not, when are not crosses one, it's a hop bifurcation that looks just like the speed wobble, bifurcation, I mean the graph. It's amazing how like, cool those things, you know, mathematically you're like, Oh yeah, that's exactly the same as this. It's just here, it's in a, you know, you get the exact same graph if you're looking at, um, Uh, wing flutter in an aircraft, uh, in the wing tunnel. Mm-hmm. , similar bifurcation problem, but yeah. So you, you, you have essentially two states and the system can get tripped from one end into the other. And in the one the bike is stable and wants to go straight, and in the other it wants to oscillate because each oscillation mm-hmm. is setting up the, the counter oscillation. Um, and so like, it, it's, you know, in resonance it's more of like a runaway you, you think of like the, how that's tradition. Yeah. It amplifi forcing. Yeah. It, it just keeps growing and growing and growing. Um, and in this one it just, it, it, it's not growing and growing, but it just trips you into this spot where like it's really bad. Um mm-hmm. and it will just shake the crap outta you at the front end. And um, and in fact motorcycles quite [00:37:07] Randall: scary. The high performance motorcycles will sometimes have a steering damper for this very reason. Um, because you'll, yeah, you'll get these speed wobbles. And so the damper is essentially making it so there's some exponentially increasing resistance. Um, I, I know you know this, I'm explaining it for our, our audience just in, you know, cause again, I wanna keep bringing it back down to earth, but, you know, having just like your, your suspension, you don't just have a a just a spring, you have some sort of damping circuit so it doesn't feel like a pogo stick. Um, which is a related effect. Um, but, uh, very cool. And are not for our listeners as well. [00:37:47] Josh: Funny. I hadn't thought about that. I haven't thought about that in like two years as we were talking like, Oh, I remember now. That was, uh, yeah. Yeah, that was, uh, But what or not was the, um, Oh shit. It was the. The contagion ratio or whatever, like how, how many people, each person would transmit to mm-hmm. And so if it's, which makes sense, right? If every person's gonna transmit it to 1.1, it grows. If you're gonna transmit it to 0.8, it, it dies. Um, [00:38:12] Randall: so the analogy here is that, that the increasing amplitude of that, you know, those pressure differentials, sending it to the, the system to one state or the other and causing that increasing oscillation, Is that a exactly correct characterization? [00:38:26] Josh: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like you, you can take it right up to a line, um, and you don't have a problem. And then as soon as you cross the line, you're in a different state. Mm-hmm. . And, and that's where I think, you know, speed wobble for those of you who've experienced it or chase tried chasing it on a bicycle, um, you can solve it sometimes with like, the stupidest stuff. Um, you know, one of the, the common ones is to just put a little bit of like, um, like, like a heavier bar tape or a little bit of lead weight in like your, um, Uh, your plugs. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . You can oftentimes change it with a tire pressure or a different tire cuz you can add just enough damping at the contact patch. Um, that it just pushes it up high. You know, if, if, cause typically what people will find is like, Oh, it's, I'm totally fine. Then I hit, you know, 38.5 miles an hour and all hell breaks loose. Well. Mm-hmm. , you change the mass at the top of the system a little bit and maybe you've now pushed that point out to 45 miles an. but if you never go 45 miles an hour, you've affected, that's not a problem. Right? Yeah, yeah. Like, oh yeah, I [00:39:28] Randall: fixed it. I think another example that people may have experienced too is like, uh, sometimes you'll have an issue with your car that, you know, won't notice except that certain speeds and it's because of those speeds. There is some, you know, oscillation that's happening. If it's a tire and balance or something in your drive train or the like. Um, you know, I've, I once had a vehicle that was really good up to 60 and then like 60, 61, it was problematic and then it would smooth out a bit after that and it was just like this wobbling effect that would balance out beyond that, that speed. Um, alright, so then bringing things back down to earth. Um, this is delightful by the way. I, I could do this all day, . Um, and I, I hadn't quite appreciated. Um, the, the basic r and d and like basic science and tool building that you were involved in. Uh, so. That's, its its own topic. That's probably not one for, for a podcast of this particular [00:40:22] Josh: def. Yeah. I, I will say on that, I think that's the part that I think never, you know, the marketing never really tells that side of the story cuz it's just too complicated. Yeah. But if you're, if you're out there and you're, you're into this stuff, like that's the fun stuff. Like, I love launching product and, and the product itself. But like, that crazy journey to get there is usually like, that's where all the fun is happening. And, and, and typically cuz we're, you know, you're doing it wrong, like 90% of the time you're like, you know, it's just can be months or years of like, we suck, you know, this doesn't work, we're getting our sasses kicked. And then you, you know, if you persevere long enough, you will come out the other end and it's like, wow, we, we needed all that stuff. Like, we needed to get our heads handed to us over and over again, or we never would've figured this stuff out. Um, Yeah. I really, really enjoy that part of, um, of, of technology development or whatever you wanna call it. [00:41:16] Randall: Yeah. Basic, like real basic r and d right down to building the tools that you need to do the r and d you want to do, um, Right. . Yeah. Very cool. And obviously like the compute power and the, the algorithms available and, you know, the switch to GPUs and all these other things that have, um, changed since you were developing that make it such that today's models are both vastly more powerful and still yet trivial in complexity relative to the system itself. [00:41:44] Josh: Yeah, totally. [00:41:46] Randall: Yeah. Um, well let's dive into some more practical topics. So let's talk about like, alright, so a lot of our listeners we're the Gravel Ride podcast, right? So thinking about that particular experience, um, what should, what are, what is worth, um, a gravel rider thinking about. Uh, with relation to arrow. Uh, so things that can be done that will improve aerodynamics, but then not take away from the ride experience that a lot of riders are after, particularly when they're going to grab, you know, they wanna be comfortable, they wanna have a good time, they wanna have good control over a variety of different terrain and so on. So what are the arrow? Um, and, and they don't wanna look silly, so they might not be, want wanting to wear a skin suit or something like that. Not that it looks silly, but, but you know, a more, a more serious enthusiast type of rider. Uh, what are the Yeah, what are the things to think about? [00:42:36] Josh: Oh, gosh. That's, that's a good question. Um, I mean, I think it really depends on, on what. Th the particular rider, you know, is after, I mean, are you, are you racing? Do you wanna go fast? Do you wanna not get dropped? Mm-hmm. , um, you know, do you need to carry stuff? I mean, I would say one of, one of the big ones that I, I just see and, and you know, we, we make a ton of stuff in our company and one of, one of them being bags. And, you know, we're constantly accused of not making bags that are big enough. And so I've been on this mission for a couple years of like, you know, what is in there, , Like Really? Mm-hmm. what's in there. Yeah. And it is amazing to me just how much crap people are carrying. You know, you, you open some of these monster seat bags, it's like, man, just because you bought it doesn't mean you need to fill it or use it. Um, you know, it, and, and absolutely there's, there's like time and place for it. But, um, you know, I. Some of the stuff like that, like, Oh, okay. You've, you know, do you, you show up on the local gravel right here and you know, people look like they're, they're almost like bike packing, like mm-hmm. , you just don't need, you know, it, it's a 40 mile loop, you know, that starts and ends at a bike shop. Like, you, you don't need to bring a bike [00:43:49] Randall: shop with you. Well, you, you need your coffee grinder, you need your, your mini stove and you need your neuro press. Yeah, Yeah. Um, different experience. You know, let's assume that we're going after like a performance rider who's, um, like doing, doing, you know, a hundred, uh, a hundred mile events than they're, they're training for it and they wanna squeeze out more performance, um, out of their existing setup. Or they're considering, you know, what bike to get, what wheels to get, what, um, how to set it up, even considering bike fit. Yeah. Or, you know, clip on arrow bars and the, like, what are the different things that people can do and what are the compromises and so on. [00:44:24] Josh: Yeah. I mean, the, I, I think certainly for gravel. The one clear cut, no compromise. Better all around product that I can just always recommend is like a, an arrow top drop bar. I mean, it is amazing how much faster those things are than round section bars. I mean, any really, you know, like pro vibe or the zip fuca or whatever, you know, there's, I think every company makes one. It's that big, you know. Oh, it's hu I mean it like wind tunnel speeds. It's a flattop bar can be like 28 to 30 watts. I mean, it's nuts. Yeah. Cause you're, you're replacing round covered in tape with something that's like pretty thin and shaped Well, sure. Or it can be massive, but, but the, [00:45:05] Randall: I didn't, cuz the cross sectional areas is not that big compared to, you know, the rider and the, the rest of the bike and so on. Some [00:45:12] Josh: No, it's, it's, well and in gravel it has the double effect of being, you know, shaped or ized in the direction that is also gonna add compliance, right? Yeah, yeah. And, and comfort. And so you, you know, it's one of the few products I can really look at and go, okay, that thing is more arrow and more comfortable and has more service area for your right. I mean, better all around. Um, that's a pretty easy one to, to go with. And, and similarly, you know, if you've, you've got the money. I mean some of these, the, the integrated cockpit solutions that are out there are even faster, right? Cause it's just even less. Stuff in the wind. Um, so let's talk you, let's [00:45:48] Randall: talk about that. That's big, a big serviceability compromise and, and you know, fit can be a concern with that too cause it's harder to swap components and so on. How much of that is coming from, um, simply not having the cables running into the down tube? Like, can you get the vast majority of those benefits with cables coming out from, say, underneath the bar? If they're tucked in on the bar or even coming out from the bar and dropping underneath the stem into the, the headset from there? [00:46:14] Josh: Yeah. Yeah. My, my rule of thumb for cables that I always use cuz it's so memorable is, um, You know, Greg Lamond versus Fon in the 89 tour time. Mm-hmm. , So 2020 kilometer time trial. Um, the eight second gap, there was more or less equivalent to Fons ponytail, Right. As we, we loved to joke about a cyclist, but was also the equivalent of one number two pencil length worth of cable housing. So, and [00:46:46] Randall: this is, and this is true even if the cable housing is say, in front of the head tube, so it's going to be disturbed by the head tube anyways, cuz you're getting the drag off of it. Be, you see what I mean? Like, so I, I'm trying to hone my understanding of the [00:46:59] Josh: Yeah. I mean, you think, Yeah. So I, I would think, uh, good way to put that would be that, Yeah. Putting, putting a slow. Crappy thing in front of a smooth thing, you're, you're still getting the drag of the slow, crappy thing. Yep. Um, and you may actually be worsening the flow, um, on the arrow thing. So Yeah. Got it. Absolutely. Still, you still have that effect. Um, you know it, and it's hard to say, you know, in some cases, you know, it's, it's close enough or it's just in like the goldilock zone where it's a good distance away where you're like, Ooh, we can kind of make them disappear. And they become, you know, uh, a almost like the cable isn't there, but that's not typically what we see. And typically, you know, you, you throw a bike in the wind tunnel with that and then you rip the cables out and you run it again and you're, every time it's like, Oh shit. Big difference. Difference. You've, in [00:47:50] Randall: terms of watts, like a few watts here, like, so, so the handlebar is the big one, you said as much as 30 watts at wind tunnel speeds, which granted gravel riders generally are, are, we're [00:48:00] Josh: not going that miles an hour. But you, Yeah, you we're out for a long time. Yeah, but you are out there for a long time, so you don't have the speed. But yeah, you, you definitely have the, the, the potential time saving. So, yeah, I, you know, hidden cables. I agree with you. Total pain in the ass. And, you know, my God, I've spent a career working on world tour bikes and, and you know, Ironman, world champion bikes and things like that. And I, I feel everybody's pain, you know, people are always like, Why is the industry doing this to us? Like, like, Well, cuz you want it and cuz it works. I mean there's no, like, it, it's a pain in the ass, but it works. Mm-hmm. . So anywhere you can get rid of cable. get rid of cables, um, you know, skin suit. I have to say not everybody loves it, but man, it can be a huge, huge difference. Uh, I mean, you look at, you know, we were just out at lead, uh, Leadville and Steamboat, and you know, all the top. Guys at Leadville and skin suits now, cuz it, it makes that big of a difference. Um, arrow bars can be huge and, you know, I think that's, that's one I I think everybody's got their own sort of flavor that they like. But, you know, to me, like for gravel, a stubby, a stubby bar that has functional pads mm-hmm. , um, really can be worth it just because it's a different hand position and it, it's enough that it, it's effectively changing your, kind of, your whole torso position and it, it, it's just giving you a, a break all around. Right. It's different pressure points in your shammy for the time that you're using it. It's different, you know, muscles in your back. Um, I think there's a good, this is the, the extent of my physi physiological knowledge, but I, I think it's good to, to mix things up. Um, like that. I, I know a lot of people have kind of gone to these super. Narrow, stubby, I don't even know what you call 'em. Like semia bars that Yeah, [00:49:46] Randall: mini arrow bars. [00:49:48] Josh: Nowhere to put your, nowhere to rest your weight. And, and it just feels like everybody I know using those is constantly complaining about their wrists, you know? Um, and so I, I, again, not a physical, but the change [00:50:00] Randall: in the change in frontal area, um, is that just an unmitigated benefit or are there circumstances where you can reduce frontal area and, you know, have a negative result within the realm of, you know, changing a Roger's position? [00:50:16] Josh: Yeah, you know, a lot of it depends on your, your baseline and, and how good you are. Positionally, I think, you know, when, you know, we do a lot of position training with top athletes and you know, the. The best place you can be that's not an arrow bar is on the hoods with level forearms. Mm-hmm. , right? Like that's the, and and ideally with relatively narrow bars, [00:50:37] Randall: so, and perpendicular upper arms as well, presumably, [00:50:40] Josh: or give or take. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it is, it's, you're gonna roughly get there depending on what the rest of the position looks like and, you know, obviously different body shapes and whatnot. But yeah, I mean, you think horizontal forearms are keeping that pretty much out of the wind. Mm-hmm. , Um, and, and they are also keeping it, it's just hard to hold that position, um, with, in a way that you're also still opening your chest. Because, you know, you were really trying to keep air from getting blocked up under the chest. And when you get a rider doing that, they just always kind of form, which I say always, I'm sure there's some counterexamples out there, but they, they almost always, um, kind of adjust their back and their shoulders in a way that they kind of turtle their head a little bit. You know, the head comes down and you're just kind of now pushing more air up over the body and less down into it. Um, but from there, arrow bars are almost always an improvement, right? Cuz you're narrowing the arms, um, you know, you're tightening things up even further and now you're pushing more flow around the sides, um, and less into the chest and less into the hips. And there's some physiological things. You know, people, you know, wide hips, big hands, certain shoulders, certain back shapes, right? That's why we go to the tunnel, you know, it's, it. 90% of the time, you could look at somebody and go, Oh, do this, this, and that, but man, 10% of the time it looks good and you run it and you're like, That's not good, We can just find a different solution. Um, [00:52:10] Randall: yeah. So air bars are huge. Another thing that we're starting to see is, uh, so BMC has their new cas uh, uh, line. They went with a super narrow, uh, handlebar, so narrow at the hoods, and then, you know, flare at the bottom. Uh, that seems like another thing that again, is, Well, I mean, on the one hand, yeah, you're getting narrower, but on the other hand, you're also closing up the chest and maybe, you know, you're not getting as much oxygen, like air turnover or something. Or like, are there issues where I, so [00:52:38] Josh: I, I have been beating the narrow handlebar drum for 25 years. Um, you know, I am yet to actually see or be told by a real physiologist that that whole. Oxygen lung thing that we were all told as juniors is true, is an issue. Um, yeah, I I've just, yeah, we've just never, I mean that, that I know of and I'm sure somebody out there will say, Oh, here's a paper. But, you know, I, I know whenever we've studied it, looked at it, we've looked at it with athletes, I mean, look at what's happening at the world tour. A lot of that is, you know, we've been beating that drum. I'm starting to see that for years, and people are doing it and they're winning. Um, so, you know, and I wonder [00:53:17] Randall: why aren't we seeing it with extreme flare as well, like a compound flare at least, so that you can still keep a, you know, a reasonably vertical lever position because then you could go even narrower and have, um, still have the leverage for the descending and so on. Is that a [00:53:32] Josh: tradition thing? Yeah, I, yeah, I think some of it's that. I think some of it is just, you know, how far do you really wanna push the uci? Um, [00:53:42] Randall: you know, oh, the UCI cares about the flare in your bars. [00:53:46] Josh: Oh, they will. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I think there are actually rules putting some limits on that, but yeah, at some point it's gonna look funny enough that you're gonna draw attention and they're gonna go, Wait a minute. Um, and, and you know, we've, we've [00:53:58] Randall: seen them, I've got a 28 centimeter wide bar with huge flares on there, and I've got specially made levers that come off of it so that I can actually still touch them from the job. [00:54:07] Josh: We have seen it with, I, I can't remember the name of that bar, but I think it's out of Belgium or something. But it's got like, you know, uh, 180 millimeters of reach, um, super narrow with long, and you can kind of lay your forearms. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember seeing that and they quickly were like, Nope, that's out. Um, so I, you know, I think we just, people are, people are cautious. I think the, the setups that are working now, um, are very largely built around that, uh, three T track bar. I can't remember what it's called, but, uh, I know. You know, it's got that kind of cool like wing, like gulling shape to it, but it's super narrow, arrow tops, um, relatively vertical, uh, drops. But, but that's a bar that the ucis allowed for years, right? And so I think that as a, you know, when, when conversations are happening behind closed doors, that's the kind of thing of like, Oh, well this looks enough like that, that if they call us out, we, we go in there and be like, Well, it looks a whole lot like this thing that you've allowed for 20 years. Um, you know, we, we have tons of those conversations. Yeah. So, so I, you know, I, I think, but I, I will say, I, I think too, that's where, um, you know, a lot of people might look at the pro tour and things that they're writing. Oh, well if this worked, they'd use it. You know? I mean, that was what people told us when we were building zip in the early days. Well, if they worked, the Pro Pros would ride it. I'm like, Yeah, but they. They don't know what they're, they don't believe in aerodynamics. You know, they, the pros, they don't riding [00:55:34] Randall: super skinny tires at super high pressures cuz they felt faster for a long time, even though, you know, at least, well, you know this better than than I do. I mean, the data has been saying for quite some time that it's more efficient. Never mind the accumulated fatigue that you get when your body's just being, you know, rattled at, you know, high frequency over the course of many hours. [00:55:56] Josh: Yeah, yeah. No, it's, you know, that I would say they're quite often the last, at least as a group to change. Right. But you, you are seeing it now. I mean the, you know, and, and, and you know, the team like Nios hiring a guy, hiring Dan Bigham to come in and, you know, you, you are seeing some changes, right? Uh, that when teams are bringing full-time people like that in, um, we are gonna start moving the needle there, but it's still a delicate dance with the. With the UCI and, and all the sport governing bodies, right? Nobody, You hear it all the time. Nobody wants a repeat of the whole fna. Uh, I don't follow swimming, but I was the technical, uh, committee director for cycling at the World Federation of Sporting Good Industries. And, uh, at the time when FNA Band banned all of the super tight, uh, swimming suits, and it was just a cluster, right? I mean, they just came out and said, Nope, you've pushed it too far. We're done. And if the whole industry was sideways with like, we've invested millions of dollars in this and the records are breaking, and people wanted and on and on and on, and they just said, Nope, you're done. And, uh, I think it took them five years to under undo all that damage. You know, I mean, you just wanna [00:57:11] Randall: something parallel with running too with, uh, carbon fiber insoles and like what is, what is allowed in terms of the amount of spring that can be delivered and so on. Um, Yeah, I, I see, I see them showing up on my local run. And, um, I might have to get a set just to keep up with the people I used to beat, to keep up with [00:57:29] Josh: It's totally true. [00:57:31] Randall: Uh, that's, I mean, that's, that's, to some degree, that's the nature of the game. And that's why in, in significant part, that's why the gear is as good as it is right now is because, you know, people are looking for, as you would say, those marginal gains. Um, yeah. Um, I wanna dive in. So, uh, I want to put, bring in a few, uh, listener questions. Uh, so we posted in the ridership that you were gonna be coming on, and so we had some folks asking questions there. Probably the biggest one that came up was, um, talking about, you know, we've, uh, Craig and I brought up the rule of 1 0 5 or 5% on the podcast before, but, you know, citing, citing it, it's not a deep understanding, uh, at all. So tell us about how that emerged in. How it applies. Um, you know, particularly in the gravel scene where you're looking at tires that are much bigger. Um, and I mentioned, uh, earlier that, you know, specialized as a video for their reval wheels where they're running a a 42 mill tire on i, I think a 35 or less external rim, and they're claiming some arrow benefit. Does that seem plausible? Is there, uh, given, given, given what you have seen in the wind tunnel and in your modeling? [00:58:41] Josh: Yeah. Um, yeah, it's totally plausible and I guess, we'll, we'll start with rule of one. Oh, so rule 1 0 5 was really, you know, I, I realized pretty early in my career that you had to come up with sort of rules of thumb for things or nobody would listen to you Mm-hmm. and, you know, spent two years traveling Europe trying to sell Arrow. Sell World Tour or pro tour at the time, uh, directors and team owners on aerodynamics and you know, I mean literally got thrown out of every single team, team over there. Uh, I mean, it was just, we just got laughed out of the room. Just imagine [00:59:20] Randall: any of those team directors could have just adopted it at that time and had this huge advantage and didn't, [00:59:26] Josh: uh, that was, I mean, I always said, you know, Uli at srm, thank God, you know, he was developing his thing. And when I walked in to pitch Reese, um, he was alrea

Today's stage was the 2nd stage of 3 in Denmark with us not knowing if the crosswinds would break up the peloton. The mostly headwind kept a downsized but decent bunch for the sprint finish. Fabio Jakobsen was as fast as the hype and able to hold his position with aggressive bumping from Peter Sagan. We discuss the 3k rule which is still a relatively recent change and some unwritten rules among teams when a rider is well respected. VENTUM: Get 10% off when you use code WEDU at checkout at ventumracing.com/themove. Even further, if the bike doesn't ship within 3 weeks get an additional 10% off the remaining balance.  ROKA: THEMOVE listeners get 20% off. Just go to ROKA.com and enter code THEMOVE at checkout. WAHOO: Wahoo rarely discounts so this is great opportunity to snag a saving across almost all products including the KICKR Smart Trainer, range of pedals and the RIVAL GPS Sportwatch. Celebrate the start of the Tour at wahoofitness.com ATHLETIC GREENS: A FREE 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE travel packs with your first purchase at Athletic Greens. DRY FARM WINES: Receive a series of 3 wine boxes shipped every 2 months to celebrate the Grand Tours. An Italian Box for the Giro, a French Box for the Tour and a Spanish Box for the Vuelta. PLUS - the next 30 orders will receive a complimentary WEDU cycling cap. See details at Dry Farm Wines.

The wind and the crashes came as predicted, but didn't manage to split any GC contenders. Incredible spring performance today by Fabio Jakobson, especially after the physical pushing between him and Peter Sagan. With Jumbo-Visma having green jersey goals, co-leaders, and now Wout Van Alert in Green and yellow, might they be too ambitious and putting too many demands on their team, meanwhile, UAE seems to be conserving energy that will be much needed in week 3.