Podcasts about winegrowing

Alto Adige, in the far northeast of Italy,  is a small wine region that makes incredibly high quality reds and whites. In this episode I discuss the unique terroir, grapes, and mixed culture of this region, with its heavy Germanic and Austrian influences.    I cover: The long history of Alto Adige wine The varied soil types and geology The range of climates and growing conditions The unique grapes (including Kerner, Schiava and Lagrein) The DOCs and subzones of Alto Adige   A truly beautiful and unique Italian wine region, and one I hope I've convinced you to explore!    Copyright: Wines of Alto Adige         Full show notes and all back episodes are on Patreon. Become a member today! www.patreon.com/winefornormalpeople _______________________________________________________________   Check out my exclusive sponsor, Wine Access.  They have an amazing selection -- once you get hooked on their wines, they will be your go-to! Make sure you join the Wine Access-Wine For Normal People wine club for wines I select delivered to you four times a year!    To register for an AWESOME, LIVE WFNP class with Elizabeth or get a class gift certificate for the wine lover in your life go to: www.winefornormalpeople.com/classes    

Winegrowing regions in Washington State have many unique challenges from salty soils, to low organic matter, to nematodes. Devin Rippner, Research Viticulture Soil Scientist with USDA-ARS and his colleagues at Washington State University are developing a research vineyard to study soil health building practices. They are testing a variety of management strategies including adjusting irrigation volume to correct for salt build-up, mowing for weed management, compost applications and synthetic fertilizers, and different cover crops. The team is tracking the cost of each practice and will ultimately evaluate wine quality in the coming years. Taking a deeper dive into the future of soil sampling, Devin explains X-ray CT imagery. He has used this technology to evaluate the structure and organic matter from soil columns and aggregates. X-ray CT imagery has also been used to evaluate the impact grape seeds have on tannin flavor profiles. Resources:         80: (Rebroadcast) The Goldilocks Principle & Powdery Mildew Management 90: Nematode Management for Washington Grapes A workflow for segmenting soil and plant X-ray CT images with deep learning in Google's Colaboratory Devin Rippner, USDA ARS Functional Soil Health Healthy Soils Playlist Red Wine Fermentation Alters Grape Seed Morphology and Internal Porosity Soil Health in Washington Vineyards Vineyard soil texture and pH effects on Meloidogyne hapla and Mesocriconema xenoplax Washington Soil Health Initiative Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Wine growing regions in Washington State have many unique challenges from salty soils to low organic matter to nematodes. [00:00:13] Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, Executive Director. [00:00:23] In today's podcast, Craig McMillan, Critical Resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates, with longtime SIP certified vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery, speaks with Devin Rippner, Research Viticulture Soil Scientist with USDA ARS. [00:00:41] Devin and his colleagues at Washington State University are developing a research vineyard to study soil health building practices. [00:00:49] They are testing a variety of management strategies, including adjusting irrigation volume to correct for salt buildup, mowing for weed management, Compost applications and synthetic fertilizers and different cover crops. The team is tracking the cost of each practice and will ultimately evaluate wine quality in the coming years. [00:01:08] Taking a deeper dive into the future of soil sampling. Devin explains X ray CT imagery. He has used this technology to evaluate the structure in organic matter from soil columns and soil aggregates. X ray CT imagery has also been used to evaluate the impact that grape seeds have on tannin flavor profiles. [00:01:28] Now let's listen in. [00:01:29] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Devin Rippner. He is a research soil scientist with the USDA agricultural research service. He's based out of Prosser, Washington, and he's also an adjunct in the department of crop and soil sciences with Washington state university. [00:01:46] Devin, thanks for being here. [00:01:48] Devin Rippner: Absolutely. Pleasure to be here, Craig. [00:01:50] Craig Macmillan: You are on the leadership team of the Washington State Soil Health Initiative. I think it's a pretty cool little program. Tell us what it is and what it's all about. [00:01:59] Devin Rippner: Yeah, absolutely. So the Washington State Legislature allocated funding to study soil health and soil health building practices in a variety of agricultural systems and so to access that money a number of groups put in competitive proposals at the Prosser Irrigated Agriculture Research and Extension Center, we put in a proposal to study soil health in wine grape systems. [00:02:24] Originally, we actually had it in juice grapes as well, but we were not able to get enough funding for both. Juice grapes are actually a big product out of Washington. [00:02:32] Craig Macmillan: I did not know that. That's interesting. What varieties? [00:02:34] Devin Rippner: Mostly Concord? [00:02:36] I'm less familiar with it. It's something I would, I would like to work in cause they have different constraints than wine grapes. [00:02:41] Ours is focused on wine grapes, but there are systems looking at tree fruit, at potatoes, at small crane cropping systems. There are a variety of systems that are being evaluated. [00:02:54] Craig Macmillan: I looked at a flyer that kind of outlined some of the ideas and issues around , the Wine Grape part. Can you tell us a little bit about that? [00:03:01] Devin Rippner: we have fairly unique soils. We have pretty alkaline soils here in Washington. We're on the arid side of the Cascades. So think Reno rather than like Seattle. we tend to accumulate salts. We also have very coarse textured soils. So a lot of sands to sandy loams or loamy sands. Very little clay. [00:03:23] We have typically under 10 percent clay in a lot of the grape growing regions of washington. we also have low organic matter, because it doesn't rain much here. There has never been a chance for a lot of plants to grow. And so we just have never really built up organic matter. So we typically have about, let's say, maybe 1 percent to 2 percent organic matter in our soils. [00:03:44] That's about half a percent carbon to 1 percent carbon, which is typically it's pretty low for a lot of soils. [00:03:50] Craig Macmillan: It is. [00:03:51] Devin Rippner: those are some of, some of the like unique challenges around soil health. There's also problems with pests. Haven't had too much of an issue with Phylloxera. That's changing. [00:04:01] There are a variety of nematode pests that cause problems in grapes here. When you plant a vineyard into an old vineyard, you're basically putting baby vines into a place that might have a bunch of pests that aren't a big deal for really mature vines. [00:04:14] But as soon as you put a baby in that environment, it does not thrive. [00:04:18] Finding ways to deal with nematode pests, things like that over time , is really important. So those are kind of the things that we are, we are looking at, at our site. [00:04:27] Craig Macmillan: What kind of practices are you investigating to address these things? I hadn't really thought of that about it till now, but nematode is a good one. that's a tough pest. [00:04:37] Devin Rippner: funny thing is this is a long term site, right? So, so our practices for those will really come later. I had a nematologist that worked for me. And she evaluated our soils for for the pathogenic nematodes for wine grapes, and we don't really have them but the thing is they build over time, right? [00:04:52] Just because there might be a few in that soil But when they start colonizing the grape roots over time, they can become problematic We functionally have a rootstock trial at the end of all of our experimental rows and, and rootstocks have been found to be very effective at preventing nematode problems or decreasing the severity of nematode problems. [00:05:13] We will be able to kind of look at that with our rootstock trial. [00:05:17] Craig Macmillan: Do you have any of the GRN stocks in that? [00:05:19] Devin Rippner: We don't, so we have own rooted vines and then we have Telekey 5c 1103p 110r. Let's see then I think St. George [00:05:30] I'm trying to remember what, what the last one is. It's escaping me right now. I apologize. [00:05:34] Craig Macmillan: Well, no, it's all right. Some of the more common root stocks, basically the ones that are very popular. [00:05:39] Devin Rippner: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [00:05:41] The reality is that a lot of the like vitis rupestris, vitis riparia, , they are less prone to nematode parasitism. Than Vinifera. , that's the reality of it. [00:05:50] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. Less susceptible. I think it's probably the best way to put it. Nothing's bulletproof when it comes to this, this problem. [00:05:57] Devin Rippner: And Michelle Moyer in Washington has been doing a lot of work with this, with Inga Zasada, who's a USDA scientist. And their, their results are really cool. They're finding that when you try to fumigate, it helps for a little while, but the rebound is bad, and it's just easier to just use rootstocks. [00:06:15] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. Talk to me a little bit more about, you said salinity can be an issue [00:06:19] Devin Rippner: Yeah, [00:06:20] Craig Macmillan: So here's the, the back and forth on that. You would think that a, a coser, your textured soil salinity would be less of an issue, but you don't get the rain to take advantage of that. Is that , the issue here? [00:06:30] Devin Rippner: 100%. That's exactly it. We build up layers called caliche layers, which are evidence of a lack of water moving downward. [00:06:38] So it's, it's really evidence of water moving down and then back up due to evaporation. We get big buildups of carbonates in our soils and carbonates are a type of salt. [00:06:48] So as you apply other chemicals, Salts, a salty irrigation water , we tend to build up salts in our soils. A lot of our irrigation water comes from the Yakima River or other rivers in the area, columbia River. But there are places where people are on deeper wells and they are seeing salt accumulation in their vineyards. [00:07:06] And it's, it's really challenging to deal with. [00:07:09] Craig Macmillan: Do you have any strategies that you're looking at? Anything you're trying out? [00:07:13] Devin Rippner: at our site over time, we're going to look at higher irrigation volumes versus lower irrigation volumes and seeing if that will change the accumulation of salt at our site. , that's kind of the main experiment around that with our soil health vineyard. [00:07:27] Craig Macmillan: Obviously you're doing this with some pretty salty irrigation water and you're comparing that to less salty water. At one site, you're only gonna have one type of water, right? [00:07:36] Devin Rippner: Right. That's not something that we'll be able to do, but one of the interesting things is we are applying compost and. Our compost can be pretty salty. [00:07:45] So we'll, we'll be getting compost. That'll be kind of four decisiemen per meter. I I'm sorry to use those units and so that, so that is salty. [00:07:54] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, it's salty. [00:07:55] Devin Rippner: Young grapevines, if they grew only in that, they would really struggle. It's over the, the two deciSiemen per meter kind of threshold for grapevines. That's something where we're, you know, we are using clean irrigation water, but some of our amendments coming in can be saltier. [00:08:10] When we have kind of a, a low and high irrigation treatment, we can evaluate the salt accumulation in the root zone. From that particular amendment, right? [00:08:19] Craig Macmillan: What about other types of fertilizer? Are there organic fertilizers or something like that that might be less of a salt contributor than let's say a traditional nitrate based fertilizer? [00:08:28] Devin Rippner: As it turns out, at least for us, we don't apply. a massive amount of nitrogen to our grapevines, so we're often applying between 20 and say 60 pounds of N per year which is not a lot compared to say corn or, tree fruit or, or hops or things like that. [00:08:45] And so we, we don't, Exactly. Expect to see a buildup of, of those salts over time. Honestly, some of the organic amendments end up being saltier than our fertilizer. [00:08:55] That's something when we do a high and low for irrigation, we will be able to look at the accumulation of, of nitrates and things like that. [00:09:02] Cause in our arid environment, you do get accumulations of nitrate, which is kind of funny. [00:09:06] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, that's interesting. You also mentioned the soil pH, alkalinity. What, what's going on there? How bad is it in different spots? What can you do about it? I, I'm fascinated by this because like when you look at viticulture, you have like a lot of knobs on the mixing board, right? You got a lot of sliders and, Soil , you can't slide it very well. It's like very hard to make changes to soil over time. [00:09:33] Devin Rippner: it is. [00:09:33] Craig Macmillan: very slow and very difficult. So I'm very interested in , this issue here. [00:09:39] Devin Rippner: It's funny at our site, the soil pH isn't too bad. It's about 8. Across the board, from the, from the top that so, so we've been measuring from the top of the soil down to about 90 centimeters. About three feet. We do see a pH tick up in our sub soil, but still it's, it's around the eights. [00:09:56] We actually have a lot of carbonates in our soil. There's only more organic carbon in the top six inches of our soil. And from that point on, most of our carbon is in the form of carbonates. [00:10:06] Which is kind of unique. And so once you get down to like 60 to 90 centimeters, so two to three feet in the soil, functionally, 90 percent of the soil carbon is carbon from carbonate. [00:10:16] So dealing with that in the region there's wide variation, so people that are planting into old wheat ground where they've used a lot of ammonium based fertilizers or urea, the pH can be in the fives. And then I, I mean, I've measured soil pH is up to about 9. 8 around here. So, so quite high. [00:10:35] Those soils are hard to deal with. So these are carbonate buffered systems. So to try to lower the pH, you basically have to get rid of all the carbonates. And that is not really feasible. We do see in some of the vineyards that we work in. And again, a lot of this data is preliminary. [00:10:51] I'm trying to get stuff out right now. Getting the vineyard set up has been a massive undertaking. And I've been lucky to work with a great team to, to get it done, but it has taken a lot of my time. [00:11:01] Um, but we, we do see seasonal fluctuations with irrigation. So soils might start off with a pH around eight drop over the course of the growing season into the sixes and then as they dry down for winter time. So we cut irrigation. The pH will start to rise back up as the carbonates move from the subsoil to the surface. [00:11:21] Craig Macmillan: Interesting. Interesting. Let's talk about your vineyard. If I understand correctly, you have a research vineyard there in Prosser that you are building from scratch or have built from scratch. Is that true? [00:11:30] Devin Rippner: Yes. . It is a new vineyard to study soil health building practices. We just finished our second season. And we were very lucky. Vina Matos which is a company out of Portugal. They mechanically planted it for us. [00:11:45] Scientist, so it's, it was, yeah, it was a bit of an undertaking. Even now I've gotten a lot better on a tractor than I was. And, you know, I like to run, like, I'd like to do x ray stuff. And then I'm out there on a tractor, like, yeah, doing stuff. It's a unique challenge. [00:11:59] So we do have a vineyard manager Dr. Liz Gillespie is the vineyard manager. , she honestly does most of the tracker work. I only sub in when she's down with an illness or something like that. [00:12:09] It's been a team effort for the last couple of years. [00:12:12] Craig Macmillan: What are you doing in there? You've talked about a couple of topics, but, and how big is this, this vineyard? [00:12:17] Devin Rippner: It's not that big. It's about 4. 1 acres. , [00:12:20] Craig Macmillan: that's, you know, for research, that's good. [00:12:22] Devin Rippner: yeah, yeah, it is good. We functionally have a business as usual. So we call it our Washington 2021 standard. So it's kind of what growers just do. So that's spraying undervined for weed control and then just let resident vegetation pop up where it may and mow it down. [00:12:39] Most people don't spray or till , their tractor rows. They just. Kind of let it go. We don't get that much rain. You end up selecting for annual grasses it's actually a pretty good weed composition for a tractor row. So then we start building from there. [00:12:52] One of our treatments is what if you just mowed everywhere, right? The goal is to select for annual grasses everywhere over time. [00:12:59] And then we have another treatment where we're mowing everywhere. But we're applying compost for fertilization. Our other treatments get synthetic fertilizers for fertilization, and then we have our compost treatment where we're mowing. [00:13:12] Then we have an undervined cover crop, so that's like our cover crop treatment. [00:13:16] We're curious about undervine legume cover crops. So we have a short subterranean clover that , we've seated in to hopefully eventually start adding nitrogen to the system and, and hopefully we'll be able to back off on more of the synthetic fertilizers over time in that system, but we'll let the vines guide us, right? [00:13:35] Craig Macmillan: What species of clover is that? [00:13:37] Devin Rippner: I'm not sure the exact, so it would be like Dalkey. [00:13:39] it's a clover that basically has low flowers and shoots seed downward. And so , that allows it to replant itself really effectively. [00:13:47] The flowers tend to be below the foliage. So we won't have to worry about mowing them down too badly. , they stay low. And so that's why we selected that. just to try to keep the flowers low and keep foliage away from our vines. [00:14:01] Craig Macmillan: Anything else? [00:14:03] Devin Rippner: Yeah, so then we have our aspirational treatment, which is kind of a mix of the subterranean clover cover crop. And then we have compost fertilization and then kind of breaking the full factorial. We're actually changing what's in , , the tractor row. We're planting an intermediate wheatgrass. [00:14:20] We started with crusted wheatgrass. It's so funny with these experiments. , we seeded in crusted wheatgrass a couple of times and just did not take it's not very effective for competing against other weeds, and it's not very good with traffic. And so now , we're seeding in intermediate wheatgrass. [00:14:35] , it is more traffic tolerant and is more weed tolerant. So we're hoping that we'll be able to outcompete all the other annual grasses and just have kind of a perennial grass cover crop. [00:14:46] Craig Macmillan: Is it on these courses? So is this camp is compaction less of a problem? I would think. [00:14:53] Devin Rippner: We do have some compaction. That we've seen out there. Certainly mechanical planting can cause some extra compaction. It, it takes a lot of force to, you know, rip a giant hole in the ground to drop the vines into. And so we do see some compaction from that. [00:15:06] We have taken bulk density cores from all over the vineyard. And we're hoping to see changes over time in that compaction. So we've done bulk density course from under vine and then in the tractor row. And so we're hoping that over time, these various practices will alter the bulk density, hopefully lower the bulk density in the tractor row. [00:15:27] Craig Macmillan: And then I'm assuming that you're also keeping track of costs for these things. [00:15:32] Devin Rippner: yes, we have been keeping track of costs. We are keeping track of the hourly labor , for mowing. Honestly, we've, we've purchased some undervine mowers and , we have really struggled to find a good solution for our young vines. [00:15:45] We're going to, Purchase another one soon. The biggest thing is that if you have a swing arm on it, it's got to be gentle enough that it, it'll push out of the way , with a bamboo stake in the ground. [00:15:55] And a lot of the existing swing arm mowers for orchards and vineyards it takes a lot of force to move that swing arm. [00:16:03] It's been a real challenge for us. So, so we ended up having people go out with weed eaters, which is super expensive and is actually something that some vineyards do either biodynamic vineyards in the area that they'll send people out with weed eaters to go control the weeds under vine. [00:16:17] I don't want this to be just like a hyper specialized science experiment. If we're sending people out with weed eaters, it sounds a little bit ridiculous, but there are folks in the industry that do it. So it's not. It's not that ridiculous. [00:16:28] Craig Macmillan: It's not that ridiculous. It's legitimate. [00:16:31] Whatever tool that you can make work, depending on the size of your vineyard and depending on what your conditions are. But yeah, you're in row mode. That's going to be an issue until these vines are mature to no doubt about that. I hope you still have a vineyard after knocking down these bamboo stakes. [00:16:44] You don't have like real results yet. You've only just gotten started. [00:16:47] Devin Rippner: We've only just gotten started you know, some of the results that we got were prior to our planting, there were no differences among our treatment blocks for our treatments across the site. So that's nice kind of starting at a, a pretty even baseline. [00:17:03] We're going to track the changes over time. Honestly. I hate to speculate, we don't have the data for it yet, but we've been applying, our synthetic fertilizers based on our like compost mineralization rate. And one of the things that's pretty obvious when you walk out there is that weed competition is brutal for young vines. [00:17:23] So where we're spraying with herbicide under the vines, there's less weed competition. Those vines are just bigger., [00:17:28] we're going to up the amount of fertilizer that we apply next year to try to, like, get around that. And it's one of the challenges at our site is that for long term research, we have to manage our vineyard in a way that kind of limits how many comparisons that we can make. Functionally, two out of our three rows are buffers. It just eats up an enormous amount of space and I'm, I'm hesitant to start putting other treatments into those areas. Like, oh, what if we vary the fertilizer rate to see what the effect is with relation to mowing, right? [00:18:01] So can we get over the weed pressure by, Applying more fertilizer. One of my main takeaways is that a lot of the recommendations that you might get for like, for conventional management won't necessarily work if you're trying to change your system [00:18:16] That's where, you know, growers are going to have to play around and understand that if they're mowing under vine, there is going to be more weed pressure and those weeds take up nitrogen. [00:18:27] You may have to fertilize more. I mean, that, that's just a consequence of, of weed competition. [00:18:32] Craig Macmillan: yeah, yeah, yeah. That's interesting. And in irrigation water too, [00:18:37] Devin Rippner: Oh yeah. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. They use a lot of water. There's no doubt about it. [00:18:42] Craig Macmillan: Which actually brings me back to the clover. I planted crimson clover in my yard once and I irrigated it and it was really pretty and I actually put two and a half foot, three foot high risers off of my lawn sprinklers to get a sprinkler high enough that I could keep growing it. And I was able to grow it up to about three feet tall and it was gorgeous. It was absolutely amazing. But it does make me wonder if, what's a subterranean clover? It's a low growing clover, but how much effect does irrigation have on it in terms of making it taller or taller? [00:19:13] Devin Rippner: That's a good question. I haven't looked into it that much. I consulted with some colleagues here. Who've done work with a variety of cover crops, and they were the ones that recommended the subterranean clover. It has a short stature and part of it is because of how it flowers and seeds, it can't get that tall because it's, it pushes its seeds into the ground. [00:19:32] And so there's no real benefit for it getting taller because then it will be farther away from where it needs to put its seeds. [00:19:39] That's a real concern. I mean, I've learned so much by , having a vineyard gophers, voles, rats, mice, they can be problematic. Right. And if you have a tall cover crop, that's getting into your vines, like that's an easy pathway up. [00:19:52] Keeping the, those undervine weeds and cover crops short is really important. [00:19:58] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. It's also really important for the success of your predators. [00:20:01] Your barn nows and whatnot. They can't really do much when things are tall. So keep going, keep good luck. You're in it. You're in it now, Devon, [00:20:09] Devin Rippner: Oh, yeah. No, that's what it feels like. I feel like I jumped into the deep end of a pool, but didn't realize it was so deep. And so, yeah, I'm learning. [00:20:17] Craig Macmillan: Because prior to a few years back, cause you were, you were at Davis and you were at the Oakville station. Is that right? For a little while. [00:20:24] Devin Rippner: I pulled some samples from Oakville, but no, I was mostly on main campus. I'm a soil chemist by training. Grapevines are relatively new for me. I worked for Andrew McElrone, who , does some great work a lot of my previous work did not involve grapes, and it was mainly, like, tomatoes or other annual crops, and often, like, pretty lab based stuff. [00:20:47] And so this has been a real deep dive for me to do something different. [00:20:53] Craig Macmillan: which is an excellent transition to some of your work which you did at other crops, but you also did some other interesting things related to vines and to soil. And that is x ray CT imagery. You were the first person to introduce me to this concept. I I had no idea I guess I should say X ray micro CT imagery. What, what are the exact terminology? What is it? What can it do? What can we learn? [00:21:20] Devin Rippner: Thanks for bringing this up. Let me just try to keep it simple and I'll build out from there. Just like a doctor's office where you can get an X ray you can actually X ray soils. And plants and look inside of them. X ray computed tomography is where instead of just taking one x ray, maybe you take 1000 x rays as the sample is slowly moving. And what you end up with is the ability to make a three D reconstruction of that sample. Where you're able to look inside of it. [00:21:50] Materials that absorb x rays look different than materials that don't absorb x rays. And so you're able to start Teasing apart structures that are inside of plants and soils [00:22:01] There's different levels to that. Humans have X ray computed tomography done on them, right? You can go in and have that procedure done to look inside of you. It's very much like an MRI there are some tools that it. look at very big volumes. And then there are some tools that look at very small volumes. [00:22:19] That's where there's the x ray microcomputed tomography is looking at very small volumes. And a lot of times those instruments they're low often located. With synchrotrons. So a synchrotron is a particle accelerator that moves electrons at about the speed of light. And then as they're going at the speed of light, , it bends them, it shifts the path of the electrons. [00:22:43] And in doing so , Theory of relativity says that when you have a big shift , in the direction of these electrons they must lose energy. And so they lose energy as the brightest light that we know of in the known universe. And so some of that light are x rays and those x rays are very tunable, and there's a lot of them. [00:23:03] And so we can basically focus on a really tiny area. And still have a lot of x rays. That lets us look at really small things and still have like good contrast and be able to image them relatively quickly. This field is advancing quickly. I know it sounds pretty crazy to talk about x raying soils and plants and things like that. [00:23:23] But the reality is these x rays can also be used to identify elements. And so you can do elemental speciation. So you can be like, Oh, all of the phosphorus there is as phosphate rather than some other form or it's calcium phosphate, not magnesium phosphate. That's called x ray adsorption, near edge structures. [00:23:42] That's how people do that. A long time ago, these instruments used to be unique. You do like a tomography and then you do like these Zains do elemental information, but those things are converging. Now it's possible to do like x ray CT and also do elemental analysis and speciation on the same sample. [00:24:01] in 100 years, that may be how we do our soil testing is you literally have one of these instruments on the back of a tractor. You pull a soil core. You do a quick scan and you say, here's our structure. We can also see the organic matter inside of the soil column. And then by inference from the outer edge of the soil column, we can get What elements are there and what form they're in and then make predictions on their availability. [00:24:27] Were very far from that, but that's like the vision that I have in my head is that at some point, , these will be sensors that people can just use in the field. Will they use an enormous amount of energy? Absolutely. Technology has, shifted in my lifetime and a lot of things that have seemed absurd in the past are now commonplace. [00:24:47] Craig Macmillan: What kinds of things, and it can be other crops as well, but in particular, there was one you did with, I think, grape seeds. Those are the things that can do what, what have you actually. Zapped [00:24:59] Devin Rippner: Yeah. [00:24:59] Craig Macmillan: a better word. [00:25:01] Devin Rippner: You know. [00:25:01] Craig Macmillan: mind here. Okay. So [00:25:03] Devin Rippner: Yeah. So I work with a lot of folks at different national labs. So the Pacific Northwest National Lab is a lab I work at a lot. And we've done a lot of imaging of soil cores and they're big soil cores. So three inches by 12 inch soil cores and to look at soil structure and we're working on segmenting out organic matter from them. [00:25:22] That's something that was not previously possible, but with modern neural networks and deep learning, we can actually train. Neural networks to identify specific compounds in the soil and identify them. We've done it with soil columns. I've done some work with soil aggregates. [00:25:38] So we can look at very small things as well. I've looked at grape seeds, so we had a little study where working with some folks at Davis they pulled out grape seeds, before, during and after fermentation, functionally, and we looked at how the structures of the seeds were changing. [00:25:58] The idea here is that grapeseeds provide a lot of tannins and they're not necessarily like the best tannins for wine, but they do provide a lot of tannins. [00:26:07] People have always wondered like, why do grapeseeds kind of supply a constant amount of tannins during the fermentation process? And as it turns out, it's because the structure of the seeds is changing during fermentation, [00:26:18] They start cracking. And so the internal structures become more accessible during fermentation. [00:26:23] And so that's what we were seeing using x ray tomography is these internal changes that were happening inside of the grape seeds that could potentially promote tannin extraction. [00:26:32] Craig Macmillan: That is fascinating. That explains a lot. I'm just thinking through, Tannin management. The date currently is in the beginning of November 2024. So we're just wrapping up a harvest here in the Paso Robles, central coast area. And so I've been thinking a lot about tannin management last couple of months on behalf of my friends who make wine, not myself. That's not entirely true. Is there a practical application to that in terms of like timing or conditions or things that would contribute to the, the cracking breakdown of these seeds that you identified? [00:27:05] Devin Rippner: We weren't able to go like that in depth and it's some, it's an area that I would like to build on. But the idea is that. The fermentation is a pretty harsh environment. You have a massive change in pH. Microbes are working hard. You have the production of ethanol, which allows the extraction of different compounds. [00:27:24] The seeds are seemingly being modified during fermentation. There needs to be more work done in this area in terms of seed tanning management. We now have kind of a, the more physical. Explanation for why those cannons are coming out of the seeds. [00:27:39] If you are able to pull your seeds earlier from fermentation, I mean, that's like a ridiculous thing to say, but you know, [00:27:45] Craig Macmillan: no, I mean, winemakers are very clever there's a lot of techniques that have become more prominent, I think, in the last 10, 15 years in terms of things like pressing off early, so getting your extraction fast and then finishing out the fermentation off of skins, off of seeds, you know, that's one way that you can do it really using seed maturity as a major variable in your pick decision is another one that I've seen people really draw to. [00:28:09] I remember people crunching on seeds and going, yeah, that's mature. Now I'm seeing people reject a pick date based on that. [00:28:17] Like we were going to wait for these seeds to mature fully before we pull because of, because of these issues with a seed tannin. So just knowing that I think is fascinating. [00:28:28] And if we can put some time and pH things on that, that would be really cool. Are you going to be using this technology with the with the research plot for anything? [00:28:36] Devin Rippner: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we [00:28:39] already have started that. We've already started down that route. Shortly after planting we collected soil cores from, , the vine row. And then from where the, the planter tires were functionally running just to look at changes in bulk density. So like kind of how compressed the soil is and then trying to get at changes in porosity. [00:28:58] We looked at these cores relative to , a field next door. That has had very relatively little disturbance in the past, like 4 to 10 years. It's kind of variable but has had less disturbance than say, like, right after planting a vineyard mechanically. Some of the things we see are you know, when you mechanically plant a vineyard, the bulk density , in the vine row is much lower than where the tractor tires are running that intrinsically makes sense. [00:29:26] And they're kind of both different than a place that's been no till or low disturbance for four to 10 years. Some of the things that are most interesting, and, and again, this is preliminary, it's got to go through peer review. . But when we look at the CT scans, you can actually see where worms have been moving, [00:29:45] In these, like, low till and no till plots or this field that has just not really been disturbed. [00:29:51] , so worms are actually making sizable holes in the ground, and those holes contribute to the porosity in these, like, low disturbance soils compared to these very disturbed soils. And that was a really interesting thing to visually see. You can see the worm castings in the scan. [00:30:10] I don't know if you've ever seen worm castings before, but they kind of, they're these little, like, kind of football shaped Things that are all clumped together our soils don't really aggregate. [00:30:20] We don't have enough organic matter and we don't have enough clay. And so that's like driving force behind aggregation in our soil seemingly is worm castings. For me, that was just mind blowing. [00:30:31] I was not expecting to see that. I think I was expecting to see a lot of roots or like root channels and they're there, but the worms are like following these roots and root channels around. [00:30:41] I'm a very visual person. And so when I do CT stuff, it's like, Oh, wow. Like I can see it with my eyes. If I can't see it with my eyes, it's hard for me to believe. But when I see it with my eyes, , it's believable. [00:30:52] Craig Macmillan: We've done a number of interviews recently around so the microbiome and just soil biology kind of in general, , is that gonna be part of your analysis as some of these projects go forward? [00:31:03] Devin Rippner: Yeah, absolutely. So we've done something called phospholipid fatty acid analysis. [00:31:09] So that gives us an idea of kind of, The microbial consortium that's there right when we sample phospholipids don't really stick around in soils. They're quickly degraded. We would like to do some sequencing challenges. We don't have a microbiologist on the team. And, and so we would, we would have to pay for the sequencing. [00:31:28] And even then sequencing is really interesting because, you could be like, oh, we did say 16 S-R-R-N-A sequencing. And that's like, that's a particular like region or a particular type of sequencing that is, that only picks up on say bacteria. [00:31:47] Whereas if you want to see fungi, maybe you need to do something called ITS sequencing. And so unless you do like all of the sequencing, you can get an idea of what's happening to the bacterial communities or the fungal communities. But unless you do all of them, it's really hard to get a more holistic picture. [00:32:05] And then, a lot of the sequencing that we do or is done we're missing things. If the regions analyzed aren't big enough, like we can be blind to specific things that we know are there. And so things like my understanding is that fungal mycorrhizae can actually be hard to detect by sequencing. [00:32:21] And so even if you visually see them in the roots by staining, you may not pick them up by sequencing. It is a challenge. Now, I, you know, I think that certainly studying the microbiome and understanding its relationship , with vine performance and soil health is, is crucial and is really, you know, one of the things that it's kind of the Holy grail [00:32:41] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. [00:32:43] Devin Rippner: We're trying to get there. [00:32:44] Craig Macmillan: We're trying to get there. That is definitely the message, but it also, there's definitely the potential. I think that there's a lot of people working on this. I think we're going to get there. It's, genomics is so big. I've talked to people that are like, at some point we, we, we will probably be able to get down to species, so we will know the bad actors from the good actors, we'll get a sense of what the real ecology is. [00:33:05] That's a decade plus away still, but we're going there. Right? We're we're gonna figure it out. We're gonna figure it out at some point. We're gonna get there. [00:33:14] Devin Rippner: Yeah, I agree. And there's, there are some techniques. There's some really cool techniques. So Jennifer Petridge at Lawrence Livermore lab does a lot Carbon 13 labeling of root exudates. So she basically gives plants, she treats them with carbon 13, enriched CO2. And then she looks at how much of the carbon 13 is then incorporated into the DNA of microbes to try to get at how well associated they are with plants. [00:33:41] I think that work is just incredible. And there's some folks at Davis that are, are working that in that area as well. That's kind of the stuff that gets me really excited to seeing when people are trying to really tie it into what's feeding on root carbon, , who's getting these exudates, things like that. [00:33:59] , that to me is one of the, One of the ways that we'll be able to, like, get at these questions is to, to start differentiating, the bulk soil microbiome from like the, the real rhizosphere associated microbiome. [00:34:11] Craig Macmillan: so you got a lot going on. You got , you got a bunch of different things happening. What's the path ahead look like for you? [00:34:17] Devin Rippner: Sure. So, and with with the soil health vineyard. I mean, I'm very excited to keep that going. We'll do another large sampling event in 2027 or 2028. We'll start making wine from our grapes. Not next year, but the year after that. So we'll be excited to see how our different management strategies influence our wine. [00:34:40] The wines that come out of the vineyard, or the wines made, made from the grapes that come out of the vineyard. So those are some of the things , I'm most excited about with regard to the vineyard. [00:34:50] Otherwise, I have a lot of data that I need to process and get out. That's something that's next. [00:34:56] I, I'm collaborating with some folks from the University of Illinois in Berkeley lab to look at changes to the Moro plots in Illinois over time. So that's the oldest agricultural experiment in the United States. The plots there have been in experimental treatments for 149 years. [00:35:15] And the reason I'm involved is because vineyards can be very long lived things, right? I mean, there are vines in California 100 years old. [00:35:23] This is one of the few experiments to me that's like comparable to what we see in vineyards. And so I'm really curious about, you know, how do, how do management practices influence soil structure, microbiome, the metagenome, the metabolome, things like that, on these century long timelines. [00:35:43] That to me is like some of the really interesting questions. If you have a vineyard for, for a century, or if you want a vineyard for a century, what do you need to do? How do you make that work? Knowing that it's going to take 20 years to have your vineyard be profitable. [00:35:57] I mean, you're already on a different timescale than annual crops, right? yeah. And so it's just like, how, how do we make our, our vineyards as sustainable and long lived as possible? Because , that, that initial investment is huge. It is so much money. [00:36:13] Craig Macmillan: I think that's really great. I think coming up with findings on other crops, but with practices that could be transferable is really great. You know, we don't need to be in our little grape silo. All the time. And in fact some of the soil microbiome stuff have been with interviews with people that had no connection to vineyards whatsoever. And it was great. The things that they were learning, they were absolutely transferable to this crop as well. That hasn't gotten that kind of attention. Grapevines are tough little suckers, really from an evolutionary standpoint, they're pretty rugged and so we can kind of get away with a lot just because of that. [00:36:48] And now I think the margin for error is less and less, especially when we get into tougher and tougher sites like you're talking about and different conditions, especially if you've farmed it for a while and things have changed. Being able to look at other, other systems and see what's there. [00:37:03] What is one thing that you would tell growers around this topic of research? [00:37:09] Devin Rippner: vineyard is very informed by grower practices. We have a grower board that like helps us make decisions. A message that I will say is like science is science and science is often pretty, you know, Like straight laced and rigid because it must be. know, We're going to find things and those results hopefully will be interesting. [00:37:27] But it's not the be all and end all . of science and research. Growers continuing to try innovative things push the boundaries of what they think is possible is really how we get progress. And I am hopeful , once this vineyard is more established to start going back out and working with growers. [00:37:48] When I first started in Prosser, I sampled from probably 40 different vineyards around the state just to get an idea of what the soil properties were like. And we've done some, some experiments with that. Some of our results are that permanganate oxidize oxidizable carbon. So this POC C classically it's been called active carbon. [00:38:08] There's some new research that suggests that it's, that's maybe a misnomer and it's really, often plant derived carbon. [00:38:15] It seems like there are some effects from that, that suppress disease. And I think that , that's an area where growers can really kind of play around and see if there's , waste from their vineyard and applying it to their vines trying to look at what that does to their, POC C values and also try, just getting in trying to look at some of the past issues that those vines may have and see if there's any decreases. [00:38:41] A lot of observational science is really important. I like hearing from growers that, yeah, I did this thing and it looks like it made a difference. There's a lot of value in that and, and I don't discount like grower knowledge in any way, shape, or form. Like it is deep knowledge growers know things that I don't, and I find that out all the time. [00:39:02] I value those observations. They they give me guidance on how I want to do my work. And we do try to incorporate that stuff into the soil health vineyard. Over time we are going to have to figure out like, You know, can we sustain funding for a vineyard for, say, 50 years if all we're doing is like a cover crop, some compost, and then a mix? [00:39:23] That seems like it's maybe not the most sustainable thing. Science requires that type of stuff, but it's just not that sustainable. So finding ways to make use of our, border rows and stuff like that is going to be important. And a lot of the research that we do is going to be informed by grower observations. [00:39:39] Craig Macmillan: Yep. Yep. Exactly. Where can people find out more about you and your work? [00:39:44] Devin Rippner: Sure. So you can look me up online. Devin Rippner a lot of stuff will pop up. There's a USDA website that has a listing of my publications and things like that. I also have a personal website. So those are some places to, to check out my work. [00:40:00] I try to make sure that my stuff is open access and usable. So, like the deep learning code, the image segmentation code that I co developed for X ray ct work is now being applied to like other types of imaging on. So people are using it at hops and a variety of other things on. [00:40:18] So that code is online. Like you can find it it's associated with my papers. You can play around with it and try it with your own stuff. Mhm. And, and, and that's a big thing for me is like open data. I, I love sharing a lot of the, the data that I have and the code that I have so that people can, repeat what I did. [00:40:35] Look me up online and yeah, you'll be, you can find that, find those resources. [00:40:40] Craig Macmillan: we will have links to a lot of that on the show page. So please visit the show page and check this stuff out. I was really happy to hear you use the word repeatability. [00:40:49] Devin Rippner: Yeah, [00:40:50] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. And I also was really, it's hard. it's very, very hard and it's often overlooked. You know, the, , the scientific methods we know today was all built around the idea of repeatability. That's how you demonstrate whether something's real, real, or if it's only real under certain conditions, blah, blah, blah, blah. So that's really great. I'm glad you're doing that. [00:41:08] Well, I want to thank you for being on the podcast. This is a Devin Rippner. He is a research soil scientist with USDA agricultural research service and an adjunct position with the crop and soil science department at Washington state university. Really fun conversation, Devin, lots to think about. I will be following this closely. Or annually, probably [00:41:31] Devin Rippner: Cool. [00:41:31] Yeah. [00:41:32] Craig Macmillan: these things are slow. I'm not going to be checking every week. But I just think it's really cool project and is real inspiration. And I would love to see the same kind of thing replicated in other places. [00:41:41] Devin Rippner: Great. Thanks Craig. That was really fun. [00:41:43] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. [00:41:49] If you enjoyed this podcast, Vineyard Team has a couple of in field tailgate meetings coming up this year that you won't want to miss. [00:41:56] The first is on February 20th in Paso Robles, and it is a dry farming grower around table. Now you don't need to be a dry farmer to enjoy this event. There'll be a number of different growers here talking about their experiences, trials, challenges, and successes. [00:42:13] The second event is on March 12th, and it is Grazing as a Sustainable Practice for Vineyards, taking place in Los Olivos, and we hope to have some adorable sheep on site. [00:42:24] Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Dev lots of research articles, plus, sustainable wine growing podcast episodes, 80. The Goldilocks principle and powdery mildew management, 90 nematode management for Washington grapes, plus a whole healthy soils playlist. [00:42:42] Now for the fine print, the views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speaker's own and do not represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of the USDA ARS. As such, the views, thoughts, and opinions. Presented by the speaker do not constitute an official endorsement or approval by the United States Department of Agriculture or the Agricultural Research Service of any product or service to the exclusion of others that may be suitable. The material and information presented here is for general information purposes only. [00:43:14] If you liked this show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing, and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts at vineyardteam.org/podcast. And you can reach us at podcast@vineyardteam. org. [00:43:28] Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team.   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

What causes the “red wine headache”? Is it sulfites? A histamine reaction? Andrew Waterhouse, Professor Emeritus of Enology in the Department of Viticulture and Enology at UC Davis and Apramita Devi, Postdoctoral Scholar in the Department of Viticulture and Enology at UC Davis have identified a flavanol that can interfere with the metabolism of alcohol. That flavanol is quercetin, a natural product made in grape skins in response to sunlight. It is a natural sunscreen produced to protect the fruit from ultraviolet light. This conversation covers why quercetin may be more prevalent in high end wines, how skin contact during wine production impacts quercetin levels, and why sulfites may play a role in “red wine headache”. Resources:         74: The Spirit of Wine Andrew Waterhouse Andrew Waterhouse | Google Scholar Andrew Waterhouse | LinkedIn Apramita Devi | LinkedIn Apramita Devi |Google Scholar Inhibition of ALDH2 by quercetin glucuronide suggests a new hypothesis to explain red wine headaches Why Do Some People Get Headaches From Drinking Red Wine?  Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: What causes. The red wine headache? Is it sulfites or a histamine reaction? [00:00:10] Welcome to sustainable wine growing with the vineyard team. Where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic executive director. I've been your team. Since 1994, we've brought you the latest science-based practices, experts growers and wine industry tools through both infield and online education. So that you can grow your business. Please raise a glass. With us as we cheers to 30 years. [00:00:37] In today's podcast, Craig Macmillan, critical resource. Manager at Niner wine estates with long time sip certified. Vineyard and the first ever sip certified winery. Speaks with two university of California Davis researchers. Andrew Waterhouse. Professor emeritus of enology and the department. of, viticulture and enology. And. Oprah meta Debbie. Post-doctoral scholar and the department of viticulture and enology. [00:01:04] They have identified a flavonol that can interfere. With the metabolism of alcohol. And that flavonol is called quercetin. A natural product made in the grape skins in response. To sunlight. It's a natural sunscreen produced to protect. The fruit from ultraviolet light. This conversation covers. Why quercetin may be more prevalent in high end wines. How. Skin contact during wine production impacts quercetin levels. And why sulfites may still play a role in that red wine headache. [00:01:36] Want to be more connected with the viticulture industry. But don't know where to start become a vineyard team member. Get access. to the latest science-based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry. The tools. Through both infield and online education so that you. You can grow your business. Visit vineyard team.org. And choose grower or business to join the community today. [00:01:57] Now let's listen. in. [00:02:01] Craig Macmillan: Our guests today are Andrew Waterhouse, Professor Emeritus in Enology in the Department of Viticulture Davis, and also Aparmita Devi. She is a postdoctoral scholar, also in the Department of Viticulture & Enology Davis. Thank you both for being here. [00:02:17] Andrew Waterhouse: Oh, we're glad to be here. [00:02:19] Craig Macmillan: Today we're going to talk about a really interesting topic. It's the role of quercetin , in wine headaches. The two of you recently co authored a paper on this one particular mechanism that might cause some people to get a headache after drinking even a small amount of red wine. But before we get into that, I want to ask you, how did you get interested in this topic? [00:02:37] Andrew Waterhouse: Well I've been talking to Steve Mathiasson. He's a Napa winemaker for actually quite a while, some years back. He suffers from headaches when he drinks certain wines. And we were chatting about possible mechanisms, and we even did a study many years ago with another postdoc in my lab to investigate a question we had or a theory we had, and that didn't pan out. But more recently we were chatting again, and I got interested in the topic again, and that's what got me interested, you know, just somebody knowledgeable who was suffering from headaches and. for listening. It was, it makes it more real and it's like, well, maybe we can figure something out. So that's what got us started. [00:03:17] Craig Macmillan: Apramita , how same for you. [00:03:19] Apramita Devi: Yeah. Same. Like I've been in touch with Andy and we have been talking about this project many years. So I was always interested because I come from biological science and metabolism and stuff I got interested after talking to Andy. [00:03:33] Craig Macmillan: Well, let's start with some basics. What is quercetin? [00:03:38] Andrew Waterhouse: Well, basically, it's a natural product made by grapes, but it's a very specific one. It's in the class of polyphenolic compounds, and it's in the class of flavonoids called flavonols. And what makes it interesting, I think, is that it is made By grapes, in the skin of the grape, and only in the skin of the grape, in response to sunlight. It's sometimes referred to as sunscreen for grapes. And it specifically absorbs UV light that would cause damage to, say, DNA and other macromolecules. So it's very clear that the grapes are producing this in order to protect themselves from ultraviolet light. [00:04:22] Craig Macmillan: Right. [00:04:22] Andrew Waterhouse: So the amount that's present in wine is highly dependent on the amount of sunlight the grapes experience. Not the vine, but the grapes themselves, And a friend of mine, Steve Price, was the first to note this. In a study way back in the 90s on Pinot Noir, he noted that there was more quercetin in sun exposed Pinot Noir grapes. And that observation has been confirmed many times now in different studies. where sun exposure is correlated with quercetin levels. [00:04:58] Craig Macmillan: and this is true just for red grapes as opposed to white grapes. [00:05:02] Andrew Waterhouse: Oh, no, no, there's more in white grapes. But when you make white wine, you throw away the skins. So there's no opportunity to get those materials into the wine. Now, an exception might be orange wine. But I don't know of any data on orange wine. [00:05:21] Craig Macmillan: Apramita , maybe you can talk about the metabolism part, the biology part. So when people consume alcohol, it's metabolized down certain pathways. Quercetin is also metabolized by the body into other forms? [00:05:33] Apramita Devi: Yeah, so the pathway for alcohol and quercetin are a bit different, but the location is liver, where it goes. So when people consume alcohol, it goes to the liver and then there are two enzymes which work on the alcohol. So the first enzyme is alcohol dehydrogenase, which convert it into alcohol into acetaldehyde. The acetaldehyde is the like the toxic metabolite in the body and it can have many side effects. That's why body has to get rid of it out of the liver system. So it has a second enzyme which is called the acetaldehyde dehydrogenase. So that convert acetaldehyde dehydrogenase into a non toxic component, which is acetate or acetic system. [00:06:24] So it comes out of the body. What happens when you consume quercetin along in the body, the quercetin also goes to the liver. Because quercetin adds too much quercetin as such is not good for the body and it has low bioavailability. So liver tag it in the form of quercetin glucuronide and then the body knows that it has to be flushed out of the system. So the interesting part is that when you consume alcohol and quercetin together, You are taking the both the metabolite acetaldehyde and quercetin gluconide in the same location inside the liver. And it gives the quercetin gluconide to interact with the acetaldehyde dehydrogenase enzyme. And that acetaldehyde dehydrogenase enzyme now cannot work efficiently. to convert the acetaldehyde into the acetate. So basically you are building up acetaldehyde in the body and it's not coming out of the system and you are seeing all those negative effects of the acetaldehyde in the form of flushing or headache or not. The other systems like what's like sweating. so we think that there is a correlation between these two pathways, which might be associated in red wine system. [00:07:47] Craig Macmillan: And how did you design your study? [00:07:51] Apramita Devi: The first when I talked to Andy, like he told me that he thinks that this system is because of inflammatory pathways and inflammation system. So he was kind of like, there is something in red wine, which is Triggering this kind of pathways or there is some system so, but we were not sure what exactly are those inflammatory system. [00:08:16] So we went back and saw some literature and we kind of find that there are some studies which told that quercitans inhibit the dehydrogenase enzymes and that what triggered us that okay alcohol is metabolized by these dehydrogenase enzymes. And wine also has these phenolics. So what kind of phenolics, other kinds of phenolics, or what types of phenolics can do this inhibition? [00:08:45] The method was basically in, was based on having different phenolics, which are present in red wines more compared to white wines, select them. And then just, we find this enzyme kits in the market to do this dehydrogenase. Inhibition tests like you put the test compound and it tells whether the enzyme is the inhibited or not. [00:09:09] So we just did that in a test tube system, like we added our phenolics with the enzyme, and we saw that which kind of phenolics are inhibiting this enzyme and screening them out. out of all. So while doing that, we screened different types of quercetin, like quercetin glucoside, quercetin galactosides, and other forms. [00:09:32] Then we also tested other phenolics. I can for all my rest in and other stuff. And we also choose quercetin gluconide because that is the metabolite which is circulating in the body. And then we kind of screen them based on the in the enzyme system and we see how much inhibition is happening there. [00:09:54] Andrew Waterhouse: Yeah. So what we did was a very basic test to experiment. We didn't test anything on people. [00:10:01] We basically tested to see which of these compounds could inhibit that enzyme because we knew that if that an enzyme could be inhibited the acetaldehyde would accumulate and you'd end up with people in that condition would end up with Flushing, headaches, as Aparmita said, all kinds of other symptoms. [00:10:20] Craig Macmillan: And this would vary by person. Different people may have a proclivity to produce more of certain enzymes than others. Is that true? [00:10:29] Andrew Waterhouse: We don't really have any information about that. That's going to take a lot of more work to test you know, the, the details here. For instance. Some people get red wine headaches and some don't, but we don't know whether, for instance, perhaps their enzymes are more inhibited by quercetin glucuronide, or maybe they're just more sensitive to acetaldehyde. [00:10:52] So that's going to take, you know, human studies where we measure a bunch of things. And try to figure out, try to sort through the, the details of how this impacts people individually. [00:11:04] Craig Macmillan: What would a study , with people, investigating this, what would the design be like? How would somebody go about doing that? [00:11:12] Andrew Waterhouse: Okay. So a human study. Could have a couple different possible designs. The one we'll probably use is we'll simply find two wines, two red wines, one that's low in quercetin and one that's high. And then those will be administered to people who get red wine headaches. We'll give it to them blind, they'll have to agree of course to participate in the study. [00:11:37] And then we'll see if their experience of headaches is related to the quantity of quercetin. Now, there's some other designs we could imagine using, which might be a little more straightforward, but we're not sure how relevant they would be or whether we could get approval to do this. So, for instance, one approach would be to find a red wine that's low in quercetin and then simply add it. [00:12:00] Now adding it is tricky for a number of technical reasons. Quercetin itself is very insoluble, so we would have to add what's called a glycoside of quercetin. So we'd have to get our hands on something that would dissolve, et cetera, et cetera. We're not sure we could get approval for that because we're adding a chemical to wine. [00:12:21] Now, the chemical would probably be classified as a supplement, and so it might be approvable, as it were. And then another very simple experiment, which we thought about a while ago, you can buy quercetin as a supplement in the market. It's readily available. [00:12:38] So, one possibility is to simply give our subjects a glass of vodka and give them pills that either contain quercetin or a placebo and see if there's a relationship between administration of quercetin and headaches. [00:12:54] Now the, the quercetin itself, as I mentioned, is very insoluble. So we may have to get these more bioavailable forms of quercetin for that experiment. [00:13:04] Craig Macmillan: That leads to a wine making question. So, if it's relatively insoluble is quercetin extracted from skins more in the alcohol phase at the end of fermentation? [00:13:11] Andrew Waterhouse: Yeah. It's, it's, it's extracted fairly quickly because it's in the skin, in the grapes, it's in the form of what are called glycosides. So these, Has the quercetin molecule with the sugar attached. That makes all those forms very soluble. [00:13:27] Craig Macmillan: Oh, okay. Okay. [00:13:29] Andrew Waterhouse: There's actually an occasional problem with certain red wines, most commonly Sangiovese, where after bottling the wine has had a large quantity of quercetin glucosides. And after bottling, they break down, the glycosides break down, releasing just a simple a glycone, quercetin, and you get this disgusting looking gooey brown precipitate in the bottle. [00:13:56] Craig Macmillan: ha [00:13:57] Andrew Waterhouse: Every few years I know the folks at ETS in Napa get somebody showing up with a bottle of Sangiovese that's got this. Disgusting sludge in it, and they can tell them without analyzing that. Yes, another case, of course, it's in precipitate in the bottom. [00:14:15] Craig Macmillan: Huh, that's interesting. I believe it was mentioned in the paper that , obviously different growing conditions are going to lead to different levels of quercetin and grapes based on how much sun exposure they have, etc. And that also different winemaking techniques would have an impact. [00:14:29] If consumers are looking for products if they know they have a headache issue Is it possible they could experiment with different product types? Products that were made with different production methods if they can find that out that might Impact their sensitivity or might impact how often it happens [00:14:46] Andrew Waterhouse: Yeah, it's a pity that. Consumers wouldn't have information on the level of quercetin. We would very much like to do a study along those lines, but we haven't been able to find any funding for that, just in case somebody wants to support that kind of work, we're happy to work with them. but anyway you know, it hasn't really been an issue for winemakers, so there isn't a lot of data out there. [00:15:08] There are a few studies that published amounts of quercetin, you know, in wines from different places, but the data is very, very limited and not really useful in providing consumers guidance. The one thing we can say is because, as I mentioned earlier, sun exposure is very important, in general if you look at a particular type of wine, a varietal, say Cabernet or Pinot Noir, that the grapes that are grown on very large vines, will have less sun exposure. [00:15:39] Essentially if you have a very highly productive vineyard making targeting an inexpensive line, you probably have much more shading of the fruit as a consequence of lower quercetin levels. Compared to a very high end vineyard, usually, the amount of sunlight is very tightly controlled, and one of the reasons for that is that there's very good data showing that wines that are high in quercetin have a better mouthfeel, better texture in the mouth. And it's not clear whether quercetin is directly responsible or whether it's a marker for something else that's produced under those conditions that leads to that. many years ago, we did a study looking at phenolics in Cabernet, and we observed that the very high end Cabernets that we tested were much higher in quercetin than the sort of average price type product. [00:16:35] And I think that that was true then. It's probably true now that, you know, a very good cabernet is, is made with very tight control of sun exposure. And there is a fair amount, of course, it can't be a complete sun exposure, or they probably get raisins by the end of the harvest, by the time you get to harvest, but there's a very deliberate management of sun exposure in high end wines. And it's for a reason to, get to higher quality product. [00:17:04] Craig Macmillan: Right, exactly! And, We know that the managed sun exposure, quercetin is a part of it but also it's connected to just total phenolics in general. Lots and lots of different compounds that are, you know, semi related. And I actually wanted to go back Aprametia you identified the quercetin glucuronide as being The highest in the ones that you tested, were there other things in that test and that assay that all were also stood out, maybe not as high as that, but really kind of stuck out as being different than the rest. [00:17:39] Apramita Devi: Actually, the quercetin gluconide was a standalone as a very high, like it's like 78%. The other things were around in that 30 percent range, so I'm not sure how significant was the impact of that, but there were quercetin glycosides forms, which were like around 30 percent inhibition of the enzyme, but [00:18:03] all others were very low. [00:18:04] Craig Macmillan: yeah, so it really stood out basically as it was head and shoulders above it. I would like to put this work into context a little bit. I, I work with the public quite a bit as part of my job and I have for years. And this topic comes up. All the time. This information definitely helps me my goal, when I talk to a consumer that has an issue with, wine headache or whatever it's not that I'm trying to sell them a product as much as it is. [00:18:29] They want to enjoy wine. They tell me this, they say, Oh, I love to have it. I just can't. Da da da. And then they'll say, it's like sulfites. And then I'll kind of explore that with them a little bit. Like, so can you eat dried fruit? Do you eat canned fruit? Do you have reactions to this or to that? Are you asthmatic? [00:18:48] Kind of sort that out and go, okay, I don't think maybe that's it. Maybe it's not. The other ones that I just learned about about 10 years ago was a biogenic amines, which made a lot of sense to me in terms of things like histamine reactions. What is your feeling about sulfites is contributing biogenic amines. [00:19:04] Maybe there's other things we haven't hit on, on this topic. What are your feelings about the, kind of the big picture of what potential for a diagnosing assist? [00:19:15] Andrew Waterhouse: Why don't you talk about amines [00:19:16] Craig Macmillan: Yes, please, [00:19:18] Apramita Devi: Biogenic amines like mostly the histamine and tyramine are the main ones people talk about whenever they come with this headache stuff. So I think because it's formed in the wine during the fermentation process, and there are these spec microbes which can convert the amino acids into this, biogenic amines the histamines are part of inflammatory reactions. People know that in biology and immunology. So it's very easy to be people connected that it might be a reason why people get headache. But what I always focus is like, there are far more other food products, for example, fermented meat products, which has far more higher amount of these biogenic amines. do people get headache if they have something similar with alcohol eating together with alcohol or something like that? But there is no mechanism told till now, they just tell that, oh, since it's histamine and it's related to this inflammatory reactions, it might be the cause. But there is no solid proof that it is the cause. [00:20:27] so I don't know whether it's there or it might be a pathway or not. [00:20:33] Craig Macmillan: One of the things that I find fascinating is how we evolve our, Hypotheses about things over time, and somebody has an hypothesis and they test it out, maybe they find something, maybe they don't, but then that kicks off this whole set of what I call naive science making up stories about why. [00:20:53] It's kind of a just so story. It's like, well, obviously then somebody comes along and checks it and says, Hey, wait a second. And we're no, or if this was true, then that would have to be true. And that's not true. You know, and that kind of thing and how we keep coming around to new ideas, which is what you folks have done, which I think is really, really cool. [00:21:10] Andrew Waterhouse: I was going to answer your question about sulfites. It's a really big question actually. Partly because sulfites have so much visibility and there's so much concern about it. I think sulfites themselves Have been studied pretty carefully there's one study where if they gave subjects a very high level of sulfites in wine, it was like very small, but statistically significant increase in headaches. [00:21:39] Or some adverse reaction, but other studies have shown no correlation. By the way, sulfites are antioxidants in case you hadn't heard that. So it seems very unlikely that sulfites by themselves are some sort of bad actor in this regard. Like you, I get these questions all the time. And what I heard so many times was. Oh, it's cheap wine. It gives me a headache. [00:22:06] Craig Macmillan: Yes. [00:22:07] Andrew Waterhouse: And have you heard [00:22:08] Craig Macmillan: I've heard that many times. And then on the opposite side of things, I've heard stuff like, Oh, I get headaches from American wine, but I don't get it from French wine. Or I always get headaches from European wines, but I never from California wine. So I'm trying to figure out, is there something going on? [00:22:26] Like, can you be allergic to burgundy? You know what I'm saying? Cause I mean, it could be, it could be something about burgundy. It's just stuff going on. And then the opposite. I had a guy who says, no, I don't have any that. But he says I was traveling in France, and we were drinking wine like it was water, and I never had a hangover symptom, and I did it, and I was like, I don't know dude, like I [00:22:45] Andrew Waterhouse: Yeah. Well, there's, there's one answer to some of this, which is if you're on vacation and you don't have to get up early and you're relaxed and you probably don't get as many headaches. [00:22:58] Craig Macmillan: Right. [00:22:59] Andrew Waterhouse: So I think that's a large part of it, especially for Americans visiting Europe. They're on vacation. but I think there is something to the sulfites question. And that is that inexpensive wine often, not always, but often has more bound sulfites. [00:23:18] Craig Macmillan: Yep. [00:23:19] Andrew Waterhouse: And this is probably because those grapes have a little bit more mold on them or a lot more mold. And when they get to the crusher, the winemaker goes, Oh, there's mold on these fruits. So we're going to add sulfites to, to take care of the botrytis, right? [00:23:34] We don't want the fruit to get oxidized and damaged. They had a bunch of sulfites. The consequence of that is that in the finished line, There's a lot more. Bound to SO2, which shows up in the total SO2 number. [00:23:47] You know what it's bound to? [00:23:49] Craig Macmillan: No. [00:23:49] Andrew Waterhouse: It's bound to largely acid aldehyde. [00:23:52] Craig Macmillan: Really? [00:23:53] Oh! Well that would make sense. Yeah, that would make sense. [00:23:56] Andrew Waterhouse: And the, the reason for that is that during the fermentation, the yeast are converting all this sugar the alcohol, but there's an intermediate step which is acetaldehyde. [00:24:06] Craig Macmillan: Right. [00:24:07] Andrew Waterhouse: If you have SO2 floating around, as you would if you'd added a lot of it up front, it binds that acetaldehyde before it gets reduced to ethanol, to alcohol. if you start a fermentation with a high level of added SO2, then you will end up with a wine that has more bound acetaldehyde. And that could be a marker, say, of less expensive wine. [00:24:31] So it's possible that those people are, what they're experiencing is direct ingestion of acetaldehyde, which is being released into the blood and that that's causing them a problem. [00:24:45] Now, I've looked and looked, and I cannot find any data on what's called absorption of acetaldehyde from wine, or from food for that matter. I keep, I'm going to keep looking, [00:24:56] but for some reason or other, this hasn't been subject of a published study, although maybe I just haven't been competent enough to find it. [00:25:05] Craig Macmillan: I doubt that. [00:25:07] Andrew Waterhouse: Well, sometimes these are, you know, they're very specialized and they're indexed in funny ways. And, [00:25:13] You know, and the other thing was, you know, when the study came out, I had all these questions. I was talking to this one reporter and she said, well, I can drink natural wine. [00:25:24] It doesn't give me headaches. And I was like, oh boy, what's this about? [00:25:27] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. [00:25:28] Andrew Waterhouse: But thinking about that further when you make natural wine, you don't add any sulfites or at least you're not supposed to, Right. And consequently in the finished wine, the level of acetaldehyde would have to be very low or else it would smell like sherry. [00:25:41] Craig Macmillan: Right. Right. [00:25:43] Andrew Waterhouse: And yes, granted, many natural wines have funky smells, but they don't by and large smell like sherry. [00:25:49] So it's possible that natural wines have in general, Much less acid aldehyde than conventional one. you know, all these questions have brought up some interesting issues, I think, you know, the industry should be looking into you know, these are these issues like how much acid aldehyde Do we want in our wine and how can we reduce it if we want to reduce it? [00:26:15] I don't think anybody's really looking at that yet. I think that would be a very interesting question to pursue. Oh [00:26:24] Craig Macmillan: you just, you just reminded me of, of something two things that I, I had forgotten about. One I used to teach like enology for babies, enology for dummies thing for the public. I am in no way qualified other than just experience to do that. [00:26:39] But I broke it down in that I do that sugar aldehyde, alcohol arrows, and I'd say, okay, this, this acid aldehyde. Remember this one? This one's coming back. We're going to see this again later. So write this one down. We're going to get to that later. And sure enough, now it's just through the body and, and I think breathalyzers work based on that. [00:27:00] Don't they? It's like density. Something like that. So the aldehyde, they're actually, [00:27:05] I think so. I got to look that up again, but because by the time it gets to your breath, your body's, Processing it, right? Hugely important. Not just that compound, but aldehyde is just kind of a general well, maybe we should all invest in like some kind of, I don't know, AO unit or wine X ray or something at our house. [00:27:21] And then we could get the totals and know before we drink it you know, maybe we could figure out if somebody could come up with a consumer friendly, you know, put it in a vial and shake it and it turns blue. Don't drink it kind of thing. I'm just being silly. I don't know. [00:27:34] Andrew Waterhouse: idea. [00:27:35] Craig Macmillan: You go to different like wine shops and stuff, and there's all kinds of stirs and additives and strainers and funnels and stuff that are supposed to take things out. [00:27:45] And I've always really wanted to see what those things do. They do anything or not, or I don't know. I'd like to try it. Finally, is there one takeaway on this topic, this question to both you, one takeaway you'd like people to know, I [00:27:57] Andrew Waterhouse: well, I think the key thing is that we haven't done any experiments on people yet. [00:28:03] Craig Macmillan: Right. [00:28:04] Andrew Waterhouse: And so what we have here is, I would call it a well founded theory, [00:28:09] Craig Macmillan: Mhmm. [00:28:09] Andrew Waterhouse: I think people shouldn't rush out and start changing the way they drink yet. They might want to try some experiments. But we don't have the final word yet. [00:28:20] Craig Macmillan: Right, right. [00:28:24] Apramita Devi: Same. Yeah. This is just very preliminary study. And we just have a theory out. So we still don't know, like, what happens in the actual body. [00:28:34] Craig Macmillan: Well, I hope that we can do that. [00:28:36] Andrew Waterhouse: We're always looking for support for experiments. If anybody wants to support that, get in touch. [00:28:43] Craig Macmillan: You know, another creative thought that I have when I'm preparing for this is like, you know, , people either get headaches from wine or they don't. If I'm someone who wants to enjoy wine, but gets headaches, I would be really attracted to a product that had a back label if we could make health. statements, which we cannot, that would say now low in quercetin or, you know, headache free, you know, no, we would never get that through TTP, obviously, but but, but, you know, but we went round and round with that on sulfites, you know you know, organic waste, no added sulfites, you know, you can say that. [00:29:14] Andrew Waterhouse: I think it would be possible to perhaps have a declaration on a bottle about the level of quercetin, whether it's high or low. I suppose. I don't know. [00:29:24] One company did get a label through that had resveratrol levels on it, but then TTB stopped approving that. So only one company has that approval. But I think in that case the reason for denying the label is that it is a proxy for health claim. Thank you. [00:29:44] Quercetin, you know, whether it's high or low is really, it's not, it's not making a health claim. We're not claiming that this wine is healthier for you than the other has to do with headaches or not headaches. [00:29:55] And I don't see that as really a health claim. [00:29:58] Craig Macmillan: Well, let's just see how this develops. You never know. Let's face it. I mean, we're talking about nutrition. This is August of 2024, the date for this recording. We're talking about having nutritional labeling on wine. Right? Which I think would be a very interesting nutritional label, quite frankly. [00:30:13] I would, I would love to see that, you know. Zero percent of the RDA of everything, again, at the end of one of my lectures I'd introduce potassium, and at the end I'd say, so how much wine do you have to drink to get your RDA of potassium? You have to drink a gallon and a half of wine a day. So, maybe not a big contributor. Maybe not a big contributor. Where can people find out more about both of you? [00:30:37] Andrew Waterhouse: Well, I think probably the best starting point would be our LinkedIn pages. [00:30:43] Craig Macmillan: And those will be in the show notes. [00:30:45] Andrew Waterhouse: and I do have a website at UC Davis called waterhouse. ucdavis. edu. [00:30:52] Craig Macmillan: And that will be in there as well. What about you, Apremita? [00:30:54] Apramita Devi: For me, LinkedIn page. [00:30:58] And if people want to see about my research or my past research, they can go to my Google Scholar page to [00:31:05] Craig Macmillan: Awesome. Thank you. Well, thanks so much for being here. Our guests today were Andrew Waterhouse, Professor Emeritus in the Department of Viticulture and Enology at UC Davis, and Apramita Devi, a postdoctoral researcher in viticulture and knowledge at UC Davis. Really interesting work. [00:31:21] I'm glad that you folks are doing it. I've been a big fan of you, Dr. Waterhouse, for a long time, and now that I've seen your work, I'm a big fan of you. Apremita. You've done some pretty cool stuff in the last five years. So again, thanks. And thank you for listening to Sustainable Wine Growing with Vineyard team. [00:31:38] Please keep downloading episodes. Please visit the show page. Lots of information there. And we also have a new publication, Understanding Wine Chemistry by Andrew Waterhouse, Gavin Sachs, and David Jeffrey. Is that correct? [00:31:53] Andrew Waterhouse: That's correct. [00:31:55] Craig Macmillan: This is out in the world now. [00:31:57] Andrew Waterhouse: It's just out this month. [00:31:59] Craig Macmillan: That sounds like a must have. [00:32:01] Andrew Waterhouse: I agree. [00:32:03] Craig Macmillan: That sounds like a must have. , I will leave the name out, but there was a very famous book written by a group of folks from CSU Fresno and some collaborators. And I don't have a copy because I bought five copies in my cellar. People stole them every single time. So, this is the same kind of book, folks. [00:32:20] Maybe buy five copies. And just hand them out to give one to your assistant winemaker. Give one to your cellar master and just say, here, these are yours. I'm keeping my copy. Thank you very much. That's, that's really cool. And again, thanks for being on the podcast. [00:32:33] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening today's podcast was brought to you by wonderful laboratories. Wonderful laboratories operates two state of the art high throughput laboratories. He's located in Shaffer, California to support pathogen detection and nutrient analysis. The team provides full service support to customers with field sampling. Custom panels and special projects. They're. Customers include pest control advisors, growers, consultants, seed. Companies, backyard gardeners, ranchers, and more. [00:33:10] Make sure you check out the show notes. To learn more about. Andrew. And Oprah meta. To read a great article about their research. Why do some people get headaches from drinking red wine? [00:33:19] And if you're looking. Looking for. Some more fun wine at trivia to share at holiday parties this season. Listen into sustainable Winegrowing podcast episode. 74, the spirit of wine. [00:33:31] If you liked the show, do. It's a big favor by sharing it with a friend subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts@vineyardteam.org slash podcast. Podcast. And you can reach us at podcast@vineyardteam.org until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team. [00:33:49]   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

[00:00:00] While, the year is nearing its end. There's still a lot of actibity and work ahead with the holidays. This marketing tip. We'll give you ideas for a greener holiday season. Use them in the tasting. Room. And at home. Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday. With sip certified. We know that customers are looking for wines labeled as sustained. Sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest. Latest science and research for the wine industry. These monthly. Monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing. [00:00:33] Now let's get into some. Some tips for greener gatherings. [00:00:37] Consider getting a. A living tree rather than a cut or artificial tree. With the right tree and. The proper care it can survive the holiday season and then be planted on your property. [00:00:47] Use led lights for decorating your space. They use up to 90%, less energy than traditional incandescent. Bulbs. And can last up to 25 times longer. At an. Average of 30 cents a kilowatt powering 500 incandescent. C9 bulbs, eight hours a day for 30 days. It would cost $294. While the same five. 500 led bulbs would only cost $37.80. That's also sustainable savings for your pocket book. Plus many led lights have features like dimming. Color adjusting and motion detection. So you can customize your look and. Use them for other occasions. [00:01:27] Do you have holiday events on your calendar?. There are many options for biodegradable plates. Bowls and cutlery. Add them to your compost heap or. Send them to an industrial composting facility. Just be sure not to recycle. Recycle them organic materials can damage recycling equipment. And don't put them in the trash organic waste and landfills could produce methane gas. [00:01:49] And who. Who doesn't love local goods. Invite local vendors into your retail space. Base. To give your guests some locally sourced gift options bonus. Points. If they use natural or recycled materials. Alternative. you could opt for the gift of a local experience like dinner for two a spa day or certificate to a local shop. [00:02:08] Oh, the ribbons and bows, but where do they go? [00:02:11] When it comes to sustainability over the holidays. Days we need to address packaging. [00:02:15] For those of us who aren't the paper and ribbon collector. At the gift exchange, use. Just wrapping materials can be recycled. Plus some can even. And be composted. [00:02:24] Make sure. You check out. At the show notes to link to this article called holiday marketing. Marketing tips. To review an awesome chart. To help you gift. Wrap the Greenway. It covers what kinds of wrapping paper? Tissue paper, gift bags, boxes, ribbons, and bows can. Can be recycled. Composted. Plus some creative alternatives like wrapping. Packaging in a tea towel. And making your own paper bows. [00:02:50] Here's a bonus tip. Check out. Tip number two. In the five sustainable tasting room habits, marketing tip. To learn a few more responsible recycling practices. [00:03:00] This February. We'll continue the celebrate. Celebration of sustainable wine and we'd love for you to come celebrate with us at reciprocal, February over 30 sip certified brands have. I already joined. [00:03:12] And you can join to. Share. ReSIProcal club tastings with participating brands to increase your traffic and. Connect with like-minded brands and wine enthusiasts who value sustainability. [00:03:21] Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team.   Nearly perfect transcript by Descript.   Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/pecan-pie/happy-holiday-swing License code: QEFYRHVU5DRTFHPW Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Apply for SIP Certified Wine Join ReSIProcal February 2025 Marketing Tips eNewsletter Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic Tips for Greener Holiday Gatherings What's your Sustainable Story? Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet  Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member

[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Have you ever. Wondered do third-party certifications matter to consumers? [00:00:05] Welcome to marketing tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know that consumers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science. And research for the wine industry, these twice monthly micro podcasts. will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing. [00:00:24] If you've wondered about third-party. Certifications. You're not alone. This question has. I also crossed the university of Portland's Sam Holloway's mind. In this week's marketing tip learn about Holloway's qualitative. Research findings. And what they mean for your sustainable wine brand. [00:00:40] Holloway was interested in learning. How supply chain certifications are perceived by consumers. Impact purchasing decisions. And impact brand loyalty. In interviews and focus group discussions, his participants revealed that they were more likely to trust products bearing. Recognized certifications. [00:01:00] They viewed certified products as offering a higher value. And they were more willing to pay a premium for certified products. After coding and analyzing participant transcripts Holloway notes, that certifications quote. Enhanced brand loyalty by aligning with consumers ethical values. And beliefs. End quote. [00:01:20] While, certified products were associated with increased. Brand loyalty. Holloway's participants noted that lack of transparency could lead to skepticism. And diminished trust in brands with. Certifications. But there's an easy solution. transparency and clear communication remedy these issues before they arise. [00:01:39] Holloway's participants also emphasized stringent standards and third party verification as important factors. That enhanced their trust. [00:01:48] By sharing your story, you can connect with your guests over shared values. And spread awareness of sustainable wine operations like yours, that work. To protect the people and the planet. [00:01:58] And if your SIP Certified. You can add the SIP Certified logo to your wine labels for any wine made with at least 85% SIP. Certified fruit, whether that's estate or purchased. Check out the links in the show notes. To get your wine certified today. [00:02:13] Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team.   Nearly perfect transcript by Descript. Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Apply for SIP Certified Wine Join ReSIProcal February 2025 Marketing Tips eNewsletter Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic What's your Sustainable Story? Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet  Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Monitoring vine nutrition is critical for pest and water stress resilience and the efficient production of quality grapes. Jenny Garley, Chief Science Officer at NEWAGE Laboratories discusses the differences between SAP analysis and tissue tests. SAP measures real time nutrient availability in vascular tissue. While tissue tests look at the nutrients stored in the leaf; some maybe available but most are not. Learn how SAP analysis can improve your nutrient management program, from reducing nitrogen inputs to managing trace elements for optimal plant nutrition. Resources:         115: Examining Plant Nutrient Mobility with SAP Analysis Grape growers turn to sap sampling to monitor crop NEWAGE Laboratories – SAP Analysis The Difference Between Leaf Tissue and Sap Analyses The Grower's Guide to Plant Sap Analysis Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Monitoring grape vine nutrition is critical for pest and water, stress resilliance and the efficient production of quality grapes. Welcome to sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team. Where we bring. You the latest in science of research for the wine industry. [00:00:19] I'm Beth Vukmanic executive director. Since 1994 vineyard team has brought you the latest science-based practices. Experts growers and wine industry tools. Through both. In-field. And online education so that you can grow your business. Please. Raise a glass with us as we cheers to 30 years. [00:00:38] In today's podcast Craig Macmillan, critical resource manager at Niner wine estates with a long time. Sip certified vineyard and the first ever set certified winery speaks. Speaks with Jenny Garley chief science officer at new age. Laboratories. She discusses the differences between SAP analysis. Alesis and tissue testing. SAP measures real. Time, nutrient availability in the vascular tissue. While. Tissue tests. Look at nutrients stored in the leaf. Some may be available, but most are not. Learn how SAP. Analysis can improve your nutrient management program from reducing nitrogen inputs to managing trace elements for optimal plant. Nutrition. [00:01:21] Do you want to be more connected with the viticulture industry, but don't know where to start. Become. I'm a member of the vineyard team. Get access to the latest science-based. Practices experts, growers and wine industry tools through both in-field and online education so that you can grow your business. Visit vineyard team.org. And choose grower or business. Business. [00:01:43] To join the. Community of sustainable wine growers today now let's listen in [00:01:47] Craig Macmillan: our guest today is Jenny Garley. She is chief science officer at New Age Laboratories. And today we're going to talk about plant sap analysis and the idea of nitrogen conversion efficiency percentage. Welcome to the podcast, Jenny. [00:02:09] Jenny Garley: Thank you. Actually, thank you for having me back in your team. It's always lovely to speak with you guys and be a part of this. [00:02:19] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, we're glad you could come back. This is really great. I've heard about sap analysis in the past, a long time ago, and didn't really know anything about it because I was a dinosaur and when I was farming, I just did what I'd always done, what people told me to do, basically. That is, monitoring the nutritional status of vines is critical, obviously, for making fertilizer decisions, but also for making sure that they're happy and healthy. [00:02:39] You know, a vine that's in good balance is going to be resilient, going to tolerate different kinds of stresses, as well as basically be efficient. You know, it's going to produce a crop successfully. And with sustainability in mind in particular, our fertilizer decisions need to be directed. Now, traditionally, um, growers have used leaf tissue analysis of leaves and petioles, usually in the spring or at brazen. [00:03:03] Leaf sap analysis is another way of monitoring plant nutritional status. It's a very, very different way of going about it. What is the difference between the two methods? [00:03:10] Jenny Garley: I'm really glad you asked, because everybody asks this question, and it's very, very important, actually. Even though people use SAP and tissue sampling interchangeably, they are actually quite different from one another. So SAP measures the nutrient availability of the nutrients flowing in the vascular tissue, which is It's basically the xylem and phloem. [00:03:34] It provides a real time analysis of the nutrients that are available in the plant. And that is really one of the most important takeaways between sap and tissue, because tissue looks at the nutrients that are in the brick and mortar of the leaf that have gone into the leaf. Formation and development, the total nutrients, both available but mostly unavailable. [00:04:04] So those are huge differences there. Other differences is that tissue is taken from a singular aged leaf, just one. And then it's placed in a paper bag because that sample needs to be dehydrated. And then it needs to be ground, and then it needs to be ashed, and then it uses strong acid to form that analysis. [00:04:31] For SAP analysis, they only use linear pressure. No heat, no acid, no dehydration. Sap analysis, you need to sample a new yet fully developed leaf and an older yet functional leaf. And that is two points. And when you measure two points on a vine, that can give you mobility. And that is the second, uh, large difference between sap and tissue, is that one, sap gives you mobility. [00:05:04] And that it gives you available nutrients. Tissue gives you total nutrients from a singular age leaf. The way the analysis is done, there's heat, there's grinding, there's ash, and there's acid. What you lose in that is you lose, amongst many things, is sugar. No mobility. [00:05:27] Craig Macmillan: And when you're talking about BRICs, you're talking about carbohydrates that are in the SAP. So there's things that you can learn using SAP analysis that you wouldn't be able to learn using traditional, um, tissue analysis. [00:05:36] Jenny Garley: We're talking about leaf bricks, which is carbohydrates and soluble nutrients. When we're talking about bricks of the berry, of the grape, that's almost all sugar and quite different than a leaf brick. Thanks for bringing that up. [00:05:50] Craig Macmillan: So there's advantages then, because of the information that you get. What are the differences in terms of how you might interpret results from one to the other? Where, what I'm getting at is, let's say I've been doing traditional tissue analysis for, you know, ever. And then I go, yeah, the SAP analysis thing sounds pretty cool. [00:06:08] Am I just starting over? Is there any way I can connect the dots between the past and the present and make predictions about the future? [00:06:16] Jenny Garley: That's a good question. And we have people trying to do that all the time. Again, tissue is total nutrient analysis available and unavailable. SAP is what is available right now. So. Taking both tests, a lot of people do that, being able to equate them, that is different, they both give you different answers. [00:06:41] I wouldn't say starting over, I would just say giving more information, giving you another layer, a deeper understanding. Is how I would, I would put that I would just say you can only go so far with tissue and would you like to have a deeper understanding? Would you like to try to cut back on nitrogen? [00:07:03] Are you thinking that there could potentially be? An excess of nitrogen somewhere in your fertilizer program. SAP analysis can help you with that just as much as it can help you look at hidden hungers and or deficiencies. So if you want to talk about interpretation of SAP, we'll keep with the example of nitrogen since that's, um, the topic a lot. [00:07:28] Of today, nitrogen is highly flow mobile, and so when you see a physical deficiency on the vine, that means there's in nitrogen, that means there's been a prolonged nitrogen deficiency, and you see that yellowing in the older leaves, which is due to decreased chlorophyll synthesis. SOP analysis, taken early, can help you see those deficiencies in the report long before a physical symptom occurs. [00:08:01] Gives you time. SOP analysis gives you time. Some time, so the reason why SAP analysis can show you that is because again, we take a new yet fully functional leaf and an old yet viable leaf. So on a SAP report, when there is higher amounts of nitrogen in the new leaf as compared to the older leaf. That means those vines are trying to meet the greater demand in the new leaf. [00:08:30] They're not being given enough nitrogen, or they're not being able to take it up. So they're having to strip it out of the older leaves to meet that demand. And when that nitrogen moves out of the old leaf to the new leaf, that triggers a deficiency. That you can see on a report many times before that older leaves turn yellow. [00:08:53] Craig Macmillan: Which reminds me of something is the, what is the best timing to take samples for SAP analysis? [00:08:59] Jenny Garley: Again, great question. A lot of people like to think of sap, again, like tissue. And so they want to take just one or two samples. But sap is movement. It's flowing. It's nutrient uptake. Therefore, sap analysis is really made To be taken throughout the season and if you want a minimum amount if you're going to graph the nutrients over a season and really trying to Say cut back on nitrogen or say potassium. [00:09:33] You're going to need to have to graph that three points is the minimal amount of Data that you need to create a graph. So the minimum would be three I really like to say five. You can always cut back When the starting point usually for somebody that has never been involved in self analysis before would be a new leaf only. [00:09:59] And the reason I say that, you won't be able to see mobility, you will be able to see. cation and anion imbalances. And if you have a field with historical differences, um, than, than your other, than your other vineyards or problem areas, I highly recommend taking that about fifth leaf down on a brand new, in, in the springtime. [00:10:24] Because if you have a problem that you're trying to look at, Fighting it early is really the only thing that you can do. Waiting all the way until flower many times is, is too late to try to fight a deficiency and especially a toxicity. Really difficult to take the nutrients out of the plant. [00:10:46] Craig Macmillan: On the other end of the, uh, shoot, shall we say. The last fully functioning leaf, without like a Li Cor device or something like that, how can I pick which one of these older leaves is still really a functional leaf? And by that, do you mean in its full photosynthetic capacity? Because you've got what, it's about what, 40 days? [00:11:09] Um, is where the peak is? Something like that? Is it, are there visual signs? Is there something textural about it? Is there color about it that I can go, oh, I need to go five leaves up, or? Four leaves up, or whatever. [00:11:21] Jenny Garley: We provide pictures and protocols for taking a sap analysis, especially for vines. We have a beautiful picture of a vineyard, a vine, and where to take your new and your old leaf. Many times those older leaves are thicker. They're definitely darker in color than the new leaf, but we don't want to have a lot of crunchy edges. [00:11:45] And the reason I say that is because sap analysis, again, is a liquid, and if you send in leaves or somebody sends in leaves that looks like they've been raked up off the ground, that's essentially going to be a tissue test, not a sap analysis. That would be considered dead weight. We need about 90 to 100 grams per sample. [00:12:11] And if you. sent in a sample with a whole bunch of yellowing, crunchy leaves. That weight doesn't matter because we won't be able to extract any volume from it. So you'll need to go one to two up. That's why we say oldest yet viable leaf. We like to have some moisture in there. We need to be able to extract, um, a volume of sap from the vascular bundles. [00:12:40] So in a vineyard on a. Absolutely brand new, very healthy vineyard that the old yet viable leaf could be the oldest leaf, but on an older vineyard, maybe diseased, fighting something, having trouble taking up nutrients, maybe have some root issues, that oldest viable leaf might be the third up from the oldest leaf. [00:13:07] Because we do need a viable green leaf with moisture in it. [00:13:15] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, I'm kind of thinking about, um, the directions are good, and you have, uh, some resources to help. I'm also now thinking about, like, just touching, squeezing, breaking some of those older leaves. You can pop them off real easy. There's already an incision started, and you squeeze it, and there's nothing there. [00:13:29] And then other ones you can take, and they're nice and green, and you can rub them in your hands, and your hands turn green. You know, and you go, okay, that's probably the one that's gonna work. It's easy enough to do. So we're talking about nitrogen, but also you mentioned something else that made me think of something, and that is, what about other nutrients, including like, micronutrients? [00:13:44] Do those show up in SAP analysis, or is this just for nitrogen? [00:13:48] Jenny Garley: Absolutely. We have a whole trace element. area on a report. It goes in alphabetical order from aluminum, which is actually toxic. It's a heavy metal. We do provide that analysis for you going all the way down to zinc. The majority of trace elements are semi mobile to non mobile except molybdenum and nickel. [00:14:15] Those are mobile, but they're in very, very, very, very small quantities. So reading those on a SAP analysis is reading the parts per million. And not necessarily comparing the new to the old. [00:14:29] Craig Macmillan: So I can use this to make micronutrient decisions. You know, traditionally we take, um, Petio samples around Bloom set and then make decisions for applying some micros a month or so later, which has always been interesting to me because they need the micros earlier than that, but that's always been the way that was like, you just can't, well, okay, let's put it on there and hope for, hope for some, something next year, but that's the way we've always done it, it seems like we're kind of hoping that there'll be something there next year. [00:14:53] Now, SAP analysis, you had mentioned you can do quite early. So might I be able to do SAP analysis well before Bloom? Like you mentioned, like maybe once I have four leaves and I'm still in the elongation stage, the cluster, and get my readings and be able to make my micro decisions a little earlier. [00:15:10] Jenny Garley: Absolutely. Absolutely. And what you brought up is taking a traditional tissue test later after flower or even the veraison. You're right. You've missed the whole entire window of applying trace elements. Because trace elements, are so needed for photosynthesis and the plant really, really needs to photosynthesize, especially very early on to create energy for the vine, especially when they're trying to actually create leaves on that vine. [00:15:41] Trace elements are needed. Trace elements needed for enzymatic Actions and functions in the plant. And they're also basically there to help the macronutrients work better. All of those things need to happen very early on in the, in the plant. So yes, using SAP analysis to see how and if micronutrients are being taken up into the plant early on is vital in my opinion, [00:16:10] Craig Macmillan: That makes sense. Your lab has an interesting way of reporting Nitrogen because it takes different forms and you will see that in Tissue reports, but you have a whole different way of kind of expressing and interpreting them That's the nitrogen conversion efficiency percentage the nice percentage. I believe that's what you call it Tell us more about that. [00:16:32] I think I think it's an interesting concept [00:16:34] Jenny Garley: I have been talking about this for years and was doing the math for individual clients and companies. And I thought, you know, we should just put this on our report. Most people start on their SAP analysis path with nitrogen. There's a lot of interest in that. On a SAP analysis report, the lower the measurable N in nitrate and N in ammonium. [00:17:04] means that the plant taking up and converting the majority of nitrate and ammonium into amino acids and proteins. If there is high measurable nitrate or ammonium, the plant is having a conversion problem. And when the plant has a conversion problem, Before a grower goes and tries to add more nitrogen, they may want to figure out why their plants are unable to convert the nitrogen that the plants were already being given. [00:17:37] It's very, very important when sap analysis samples are taken that they are put in a cooler because in tissue, there's heat and grinding, which makes ammonium and nitrate volatilize. Which is why sap samples need to be kept cool in order for our NICE number to be the best it can be, to give the very best data. [00:18:06] When leaves get warm, you can no longer measure. Nitrate and ammonium. So, keeping those leaves cool and following those protocols, and I know I bring this up during nitrogen conversion, but you really do need to have cool leaves in order to have very, very good nitrate and ammonium numbers so that we can compare it to total N and give good, informative, nice percents. [00:18:32] Craig Macmillan: If I'm seeing and if I'm understanding this correctly if I have high Ammonium high nitrate that means we were not converting nitrogen into the forms that the plant needs, in terms of proteins, amino acids, things like that. Are there recommendations or practices or things that I might think about doing to influence that? [00:18:54] Jenny Garley: The first one, if the NICE number, the Nitrogen Conversion Efficiency percent, is low. So, low for grapes would be under 90. Grapes are actually fairly good at converting. If you were to look at corn or another crop, corn is actually very inefficient at converting. So, when we're talking about grapes, The nitrogen conversion efficiency percent really should be around 90 or above. [00:19:20] If it's not, and you're falling into the 80s, even getting into the 70s, the first thing I would look at is your total N, and is it excessive? If it's excessive, stop right there. Stop sign. Because the plants can only convert so much nitrogen in a 24 hour period, and if the plants are being overfed, that is number one on the list to Stop doing that practice because it's, it's creating poor conversion. [00:19:49] So that right there costs no more money for fertilizer. Just actually stop putting on nitrogen. And I would take another stop sample, get your report and see if. The new and the old leaves are actually, uh, very close together, very balanced. Because if you have a lot more nitrogen in that older leaf, that could be the problem for your nitrogen conversion right there. [00:20:14] Step two would be looking at your macronutrients that are involved. That would be sulfur, that would be magnesium. One people forget a lot is phosphorus. Phosphorus creates ATP. If you're putting a lot of nitrate in, your plants actually need more energy to convert nitrate into amino acids and proteins. [00:20:36] So that's another one to look at. The nitrogen conversion efficiency process actually means water. So looking at your water levels and are the vines getting enough water actually comes into play. One nutrient that people don't talk about a lot is calcium. Calcium is actually the master communicator nutrient, and so if calcium is quite low, the plant is having a hard time communicating for its needs, um, especially for nitrogen conversion. [00:21:10] And then going into your trace elements. Zinc, manganese, moly, copper, iron, those are all nutrients that are needed for good nitrogen conversion. [00:21:22] Craig Macmillan: So this would influence maybe my formulations, my choices. Sounds like my timing also might be influenced. [00:21:30] Jenny Garley: Yeah. Nitrogen conversion is very influential on other nutrient application timings. If you're because of the way some people have very large vineyards and they're not able to spoon feed nitrogen as much as they would want. So understanding what type of nitrogen they're putting out and putting other fertilizer that could help convert is, is huge. [00:21:55] Craig Macmillan: Which actually touches on another idea of talking about timing. I don't hear people talking about in season fertilization that much. Usually that's an end of season thing, and I think the philosophy is the plant's going to pull that up as it goes dormant, and it's in storage there in the trunk, ready to go for the spring, and then the plant will take it from there. [00:22:16] Obviously there's a big nitrogen demand during the growing season, SAP analysis would help you identify whether that demand is being met, or whether it is too great, or whatever. So this would be a way of fine tuning your fertilization program, potentially with a little spoon feeding in the middle of the season. [00:22:34] Does that make sense? [00:22:36] Jenny Garley: Oh yeah, that makes sense. Again, taking that SAP analysis as early as possible to really see, are you going deficient early on? You really don't want to go deficient early on in the season, especially if The majority of your nitrogen applications are in the ball. And how can you help the conversion if you are getting enough nitrogen but the vines aren't converting it very well. [00:23:02] So that really looks at dollars at that point. If you want to look at conversion, if you get down to the 70 percent mark, it means every dollar of nitrogen you're putting out, the plants are using 70 cents. So if you would like to make that 80 cents or 90 cents and actually try to pull back on your nitrogen, In order to do that, the plants have to become very, very efficient at the nitrogen they are being given. [00:23:27] And then people are really starting to be able to cut back on their nitrogen when their efficiency gets very good. And that's when people start pulling back 10 to 15, even 20, 30 percent, when they consistently have nitrogen conversion efficiency in the 90 percent. [00:23:46] Craig Macmillan: And it sounds like that's, um, influenced by some of these other micronutrients, um, like calcium, for instance, and phosphorus for the production of the ATP. Do you have some examples of clients that you've worked with that have adopted this technique and some of the changes they might have made? [00:24:02] Jenny Garley: The majority of people that start with SAP want to look at their nitrogen efficiency. They are somewhere in the middle of trying to make a decision on cutting back. And so I highly suggest, if that's where you are or somebody in the industry is looking, to take as many samples as you can for the first season and graph it out. [00:24:26] And you can see where the vines are taking up the most amount of nitrogen and where they actually start pushing it down to the older leaf. And right when they start pushing it down to the older leaf, that's a trigger for somebody that can make a management decision of, we add nitrogen and the plant is pushing it down to the, Older leaf, first of all, then vines aren't using it anymore. [00:24:51] Secondly, that's throwing away money because the plant is not using it. It's storing it. If you are going to use that nitrogen when the leaves. fall and try to incorporate that into the soil, great. But if you're going to prune it off, that, those are the decisions that you can make from that, that type of scenario. [00:25:15] Some folks are looking at, um, using this when they have high nitrates in their irrigation water, which is really problematic. And how to utilize the nitrogen that they already have during irrigation to convert it into amino acids and proteins so it doesn't affect fruit quality. That's another avenue that people have. [00:25:38] They already have the nitrogen there, they just need to convert it, they just need to utilize it. [00:25:42] Craig Macmillan: That's interesting. Yeah, I hadn't really thought about it that way, but that's true. What would be the one thing that you would tell a grape grower regarding this topic, in terms of the benefits of sap analysis or tissue analysis, or around managing your nitrogen and measuring what the conversion rate is? [00:25:58] What's the one piece of advice or one takeaway you would give a grower? [00:26:02] Jenny Garley: A lot of grape growers, wine grape growers, I talk to have a lot of vine stress. And if that's the case and you're using sap analysis to try to mitigate that, then you actually do need to look at your aluminum. And very few people do because when high amounts of aluminum are taking up, there is a stress. [00:26:23] Trying to mitigate that and looking at sap analysis And trying to see when that stress occurs. So, when your aluminum starts to go over one part per million, the vine can be starting into a stress. And sap analysis can see that early. Anything lower than a part per million, I call that background aluminum, because aluminum is in every single soil. [00:26:47] You're not going to get away from it. It's there naturally. So, When you're starting to see stress, then you need to look at other parameters such as E. C. electrical conductivity. A lot of people don't look at that either, but when elect electrical conductivity gets very high, the roots could actually be burning. [00:27:06] And that's not really a nutrient source. situation that is a watering situation that is a high salt index fertilizer situation. Those are things that can be seen in a SAP analysis early on and decisions can be made to try to mitigate stress and keep our vines happy and healthy longer. [00:27:28] Craig Macmillan: That is great advice. I just want to thank you for coming back. This is really great. And thanks for sharing your work, your insights. Our guest today has been Jenny Garley. She is Chief Science Officer at New Age Laboratories. Thanks for being on the podcast. This is really fun. [00:27:44] Jenny Garley: It was fun. I enjoyed. Thank you. It is. It is. [00:27:51] Craig Macmillan: That's what we're all about. Oh, and where can people find out more about you? And [00:27:55] Jenny Garley: on LinkedIn quite a bit. Jenny Garley. Uh, I also have my first article that I wrote in the Progressive Crop Consultant magazine, the January, February issue. And that is the difference between leaf tissue and sap analysis. And then, of course, New Age Laboratories, our website. [00:28:17] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by . Guillaume, grapevine nursery. Looking for top tier vines, Guillaume greapvine nursery pioneers in the nursery business since 1895 and serving Northern California since 2006 offers premium selections backed by generations of French expertise, providing the best genetic material for healthier growth and superior fruit to quality. Elevate your wine. With certified plants, you can trust. [00:28:52] Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Jenny Her article this this year and her previous interview on the sustainable wine growing pods. Podcast 115 examining plant nutrient mobility. With SAP analysis. If you like this show, do us a big favor by. By sharing it with a friend. Subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts at vineyardteam.org/podcast. And you can reach us at podcast@vineyardteam.Org. Until next time, this is sustainable Winegrowing but the vineyard team.   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

This week, we speak with Harry Hertscheg, Executive Director of the Vancouver International Wine Festival, as tickets for the 2025 Festival go on sale November 13. The theme region is the West Coast U.S., with 50 wineries from California, Oregon, and Washington State in attendance. Justin Seidenfeld, Sr. Vice President of Winemaking & Winegrowing, Rodney Strong Vineyards in Sonoma County, California, joins us to discuss some of his top-tier reds and the differences between Sonoma and Napa Valley cabernet. From California, we head to the Loire Valley in France to talk with Isabelle Moreau, the Export Manager at Château de Sancerre. We discuss her iconic Sauvignon Blanc and the growing interest in Pinot Noir from Sancerre. And speaking of Sauvignon Blanc, then it's off to New Zealand with Villa Maria's Rod Hallam to talk about the reign of Sauvignon Blanc and the rise of Kiwi wines in the international wine world.

NASA has connected data about the Earth's surface since 1972. One of the first applications was for agriculture. Alyssa Whitcraft, Executive Director of NASA Acres grew up in the wine industry at her family's property, Whitcraft Winery, located in Santa Barbara California. Her goal is to make it easier for people and organizations to use satellite data to improve agriculture. Alyssa explains how different types of satellites including polar-orbiting and geostationary collect information that can be calibrated against crop-specific data to develop predictive models. Farmers can use these models to identify viral, fungal, bacterial, water, and nutrient stressors and forecast harvest. While this technology is being used in commodity crops today, there is a huge opportunity for specialty crops.  Resources:         129: The Efficient Vineyard Project 199: NASA Satellites Detect Grapevine Diseases from Space 233: The Gap Between Space and Farm: Ground Truthing Satellite Data Models Alyssa Whitcraft Group on Earth Observations Global Agricultural Monitoring Initiative (GEOGLAM)  NASA Acres NASA Harvest Whitcraft Winery Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] [00:00:04] Beth Vukmanic: NASA has collected data about the earth surface since 1972, One of the first applications was for agriculture. Welcome to sustainable wine growing with the vineyard team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth. Vukmanic executive director. Since 1994 vineyard team has brought you the latest science-based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both in-field and online education, so that you can grow your business. Please raise a glass with us as we cheers to 30 years. [00:00:39] And today's podcast Craig Macmillan, critical resource manager at Niner wine estates with long time sip certified vineyard and the first ever sip certified winery. Speaks with Alyssa Woodcraft, executive director of NASA acres. She grew up in the wine industry at her family's property. Whitcraft winery located in Santa Barbara, California. [00:01:01] Alyssa's goal is to make it easier for people and organizations to use satellite data, to improve ag. Alissa explains how different types of satellites, including polar orbiting and geostationary collect information that can be calibrated against crop specific data to develop predictive models. Farmers can then use these models to identify viral, fungal bacteria, water, and nutrients stressors. And forecast harvest. While, this technology is being used in commodity crops today. There was huge opportunity for specialty crops. [00:01:35] Alyssa is involved in numerous organizations and projects. So I highly recommend that you visit our show notes. And check out her website. [00:01:43] If you want access to more viticulture research and technology from the world's top experts, then you won't want to miss the premier Winegrowing event of the year. The sustainable ag expo enjoy the perfect blend of in-person and online learning. Speak directly with national experts. Earn over 20 hours of continuing education and explore sustainable ag vendors. It all takes place November 11th through 13th, 2024 in San Luis Obispo, California. As a listener to this podcast. Make sure you use discount code podcast 24 at checkout to take $50 off of your ticket. Register [00:02:19] today at sustainableagexpo.org. Now let's listen [00:02:27] Craig Macmillan: Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with Vineyard Team. Our guest today is Alyssa Whitcraft. She is Executive Director of NASA Acres, and we're going to talk about all kinds of exciting stuff that she's involved with, and I'll let her explain those. Thanks for being on the podcast, Alyssa. [00:02:43] Alyssa Whitcraft: Thank you for inviting me. [00:02:45] Craig Macmillan: You're involved in a whole bunch of different projects and consortiums and programs mostly around remote sensing and agriculture. [00:02:53] And you're excited about a number of different things in your field. What exactly is your field? I think it's a good place to start because I think a lot of people don't understand what it is. [00:03:01] Alyssa Whitcraft: I'm a geographer, which is basically the world's oldest discipline. We use the lens of space and place and location to understand the world. And knowing that things that are near to one another tend to have more in common than things that are far from one another. And similarly, we know that where you are in the world matters for all sorts of different things. And that's really the lens through which I see and understand the world. Specifically within geography, because geography is a very broad discipline, my expertise is in using satellite data and other Earth observations to understand what's happening across the world in principally agriculture. I've done work in the past in forestry as well. [00:03:47] Craig Macmillan: What kinds of things does this field have coming in the future? What are the things that you're most excited about in terms of all the different work that you're doing? [00:03:55] Alyssa Whitcraft: Would it be helpful if I gave a little bit of history, or is that too much info? [00:03:59] Craig Macmillan: . Please, please. [00:04:01] Alyssa Whitcraft: Sure. So a lot of people don't realize that satellite data has been collected of the Earth's surface since 1972. NASA launched its first satellite back then, and one of its first applications was agriculture. It was really for looking at global forecasting, production forecasting, and things like that in areas where We couldn't gather statistics like the USSR, for example. And so that was very early. [00:04:29] They thought, hey, we really need to understand what's happening with the global food production, global food supply. What kind of prices are we going to be able to get? Those were the very earliest experiments. And a lot of years have passed since then. It's 52 years now. That particular satellite was called Landsat. Well, it's called ERTS 1. It's been, renamed Landsat 1 in hindsight and they've just launched Landsat 9 two years ago. So we've really, we have a lot of series of it now with continuity of data for 52 years from that satellite, that mission alone. there's a huge plethora of other types of data though that are also collected. Landsat, for example, its characteristics are, it passes over the same place every 16 days at about 30 meter resolution. So 100 feet by 100 feet, about a football field, and then there's other satellites that pass over every day and they might have much coarser spatial resolution. So 250 meters by 250 meters, for example. And then there's also recently, because storage is cheap and the Internet is fast, there's a proliferation of these very fine spatial resolution satellites where you can tell almost down to the plant level. [00:05:38] Definitely tree level, what you're looking at, that's quite fine in resolution and still have some degree of rich spectral information. And what I mean when I say that is basically everything around us is reflecting light all the time or emitting light. And we only see a little tiny piece of it, the visible spectrum. [00:06:00] That's why it's called the visible. But there's so much richness, on both sides of the visible spectrum. So longer wavelengths and shorter wavelengths, and they tell us all kinds of things about what's going on with a surface. we see vegetation as green because that's what it's reflecting. But there's other things in near infrared that can tell us about vegetation health. Or sort of mid range infrared that can tell us about water stress, things like this. And so now we have more and more spectral information, more and more frequently and finer and finer spatial resolution. [00:06:35] So our ability to see a great deal of detail has come a really long way. And still just like kind of any instrument you use, your ability to do something useful with it is contingent upon its quality and also the quality of the kind of science that you use to interpret the data and turn it into information. [00:06:58] Craig Macmillan: What kinds of information is this data being turned into? And on what kinds of or agrosystems? [00:07:06] Alyssa Whitcraft: All over the world. There's two broad classes of satellites. One is called polar orbiting. So it's going around the poles and it returns to look at the same spot every, you know, it's governed by its orbit and a couple of other things. I said Landsat was 16 days, for example and others can be much more frequently or even longer. So that's one kind, polar orbiting. The other type is geostationary, which means that as the earth turns, it's always looking at the same spot. And that's what most of the sort of weather satellites are. So that's why you can get really like frequently every 15 minutes, like a radar image, for example. all that's to say, like a lot of the satellites we use are polar orbiting, and that means it's not biased toward only collecting data over the United States. [00:07:48] It's collecting data all over the world. In the past, because. storage was expensive. There wasn't very much storage capacity on the spacecrafts. You couldn't store it all. They used to have to select which images they were going to capture. So it might be passing over a surface, but it wouldn't turn the camera on. And only about, I want to say 2012, 2013 was when Landsat started acquiring almost every single opportunity. And not just capturing something like A third of the daylit scenes that could capture every day. so all that's to say, we now have like so much rich coverage the last 12 or so years with that kind of satellite. So that means like we're getting observations of the earth's surface where everywhere agriculture is grown at least every day, depending on the type of satellite you're talking about. And even for the finer resolution ones, you're getting it every day. 10 days, maybe once you are to 20 days once you account for cloud cover in a lot of areas. [00:08:44] Craig Macmillan: what kinds of decisions can people make regarding how they farm based on this kind of information? And my understanding is that this is public information, is that correct? [00:08:53] Alyssa Whitcraft: What I talked about was sort of where you can collect information. It's all over. It's not you know, biased toward any particular region per se. By virtue of that, it's not necessarily biased toward any one crop because it's collecting all those data. So those observations exist, but our ability to turn them into information is contingent upon how much we've studied that, that item. And, and how much what it, the light that it reflects in the satellite picks up on is related to whatever it is that we're trying to study. So that's to say if a satellite only collects visible information, then we're not going to be able to talk about sort of some of the items associated with chlorophyll content and like health of the plant. Or if it doesn't collect the long infrared or mid infrared you're going to miss out on information about water, things like that. [00:09:41] And that's just kind of a simplified answer to that piece. And so we're able to collect all kinds of variables. In my work, we've called them essential agriculture variables. they're basically core building blocks, variables that we can measure and infer about the earth based on satellite data about the state, what the change has been over time and what the forecast is to the future. [00:10:02] We can look at, Hey, what kind of crop is being cultivated here right now? We can see how has that changed over the last 10 years? We can look at, okay, this is the current condition. What's the forecast for harvest this year? different things like that. We can also do within season detection of certain stressors, biotic and abiotic stress. [00:10:22] So you know, can be viral, fungal, bacterial diseases water stress that can help with precision kind of irrigation scheduling. We can also look at you know, when you couple that with like short term weather forecasts, you can see, okay, there's going to be really high demand evaporative demand. And so we need to think about maybe irrigating or doing something in advance to prep the vegetation for that. You can also use it for nutrient applications. So, this is primarily in row crops so not really vineyards per se. But, we can take a look at what the current nutrient status is. Nitrogen, if it's nitrogen deficient, then you are only applying what it needs and not too much. Same goes with pesticides. You're not just doing blanket spraying. You can do early detection and mitigation. With nitrogen, you only apply how much is needed and where it's needed, which has important environmental benefits. It also helps the farmers sort of bottom line, not wasting money. And also in terms of a fertile excess fertilizer being applied and also not leaving money on the farm by not applying enough. It can be really helpful in kind of zeroing in on what intervention needs to be done and what you can prepare for at the end of the season. [00:11:32] Craig Macmillan: I'm just thinking through this, so you would have to have some crop specific, and maybe even region specific on the ground work in order to make the connection, the correlation between, I'm getting this reading, and then this is what's going on with the plants. [00:11:47] Alyssa Whitcraft: Yes. Yep. That's completely accurate. And I'm really glad you said it because there is a perspective on satellite data that it's magic, that you just take the image and you have the information. And that's just like not really how it works. Now we're getting more and more sophisticated models out there, but all models have to be trained on something. And just because I've trained it on a ton of corn in Iowa doesn't mean it's going to work on corn in Argentina. Like that's just not necessarily how these things work. some people call it ground truth. I prefer to call it training data, validation data. you know, in situ site data, things like that, comparison data. And the reason for that nuance is just to say that there is error in all measurement. So just because if your scale is calibrated wrong and you say, this is, this was my harvest, this was my yield, then that's not necessarily ground truthed see what I mean? So, and I think that that's an important point to make because we're trying to add an additional piece of measurement to the picture, right? [00:12:48] It can give you more frequent. more coverage deeper spectral information. It can a lot, but it's a piece, it's a component of a multi source decision support system. We say like garbage in garbage out on the remote sensing side of things. Our observations are very good, but you know, we're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars of engineering in the sensors and the satellites to go up into space. So those are incredibly high quality and the space agencies who fly them they do a lot of expensive CalVal, it's called, so they go and they make sure that the instruments like, you know, The analogy in your kitchen would be you stick your thermometer in boiling water to make sure 212 Fahrenheit or 100 degrees Celsius is exactly what your thermometer is picking up, right? So we do the same thing with satellites. that's great for the reflectance or for the wavelengths, but that's not information. So then what we go out, we might take some tissue samples. To understand what's happening with nutrients with pest and disease stuff, some soil samples for that purpose. Or for some of the more like workhorse, what we've been doing with satellite data for a lot longer, those are more novel applications. The lot much longer is what's growing where where it is. What's the season. Like why is it. Kind of just at the early part, is it flowering, reproductive, is it toward harvest and then also yield. [00:14:09] And so we go out, we take crop cuts, we do things like that, then we calibrate our observations or our models against those data, and then we can run a predictive model that can tell us for the same site in another year, or more commonly you take it from that site and then generalize it. to where you have satellite data that are continuous, like so you have a whole an image, but you don't have any training data from this vineyard over here. So you take the training data from this vineyard and see if you can use it to identify what's happening in other vineyards. And then you assess, how well did I do off of another set of data that's from the ground. [00:14:46] Craig Macmillan: And so I would imagine that that kind of work is done extensively in agronomic crops, or what we might call staple crops, you know, rice, maize, soy, things like that, wheat. But you can do this with specialty crops as well. You mentioned vineyards. If there is interest and if there is funding, we can do this kind of work and bring vineyards into this this, this kind of process, this kind of science. [00:15:11] Alyssa Whitcraft: Yeah. I mean, you're spot on. Like I said earlier, the earliest applications of satellite data. Were in kind of global production forecasting with the reason being that wheat prices, for example, are incredibly correlated with conflict. So as wheat prices go up, you see more human conflict. And so these are the huge drivers of global trends in prices, in food security, all these kinds of things that are really important to track. And so the, you know, the early app applications were really for that type of crop and for very large scale forecasting in the sort of 80s, 90s was when you started to see some of the precision management. So on farm information but perhaps not as much as people hoped for in in this kind of satellite world, there was a lot of unsuccessful startups and, and things like that. I think the big reason for that is like, if you're going out and scouting your 10 acre vineyard, like you can generally walk it. It's not a big deal. You're not driving a combine through. My family's in the wine business and I grew up walking vineyards with my dad and taking tissue samples and taking fruit samples and doing things like, it was just a part of the day, you know, if you're farming 10, 000 acres, that's not viable. [00:16:30] And so you're, you have, million dollar combine to these days and things like that. That's something with autonomous driving, you can program a great deal of information into it. sort of like historically, there just wasn't necessarily the, like. The demand for what satellite data could offer, you know, it was focused on kind of like yield and nutrients and water. [00:16:49] There just wasn't the same use case in, in specialty crops. In a lot of ways, especially since some of them are growing greenhouses. So like, we're kind of out of luck with that. And so, yeah, whoops, but that things have just changed. We have better satellites now that collect more information more spectral information, higher spatial resolution, more frequently, we can process so much more data now, which means. [00:17:14] we can kind of just keep throwing more and more data at a model until it picks up some signal that we never could have anticipated. That's kind of the basis of machine learning or artificial intelligence is that you just keep going like feeding it until you see if something comes out. That also has its own problems. [00:17:31] Pretty funny fails AI. I think we've seen before the models get overtrained and it's very. clear that they don't work once they're over trained. They, they spit out like a baby with three hands AI image. And you're like, that's not, that's not right. Or I saw a matzah ball on a plate. It was like, rather than like a soup dumpling, it was like a tennis ball that was like matzah colored. I was like, that's not right either. You know, it's funny things like that. So the same thing can happen when we're looking at, you know, the earth's surface as well. [00:18:00] Craig Macmillan: you are executive director of NASA Acres. That name has come up in a couple of other interviews. Could you explain, , what NASA Acres is and what you folks do? [00:18:09] Alyssa Whitcraft: Yeah, sure thing. [00:18:10] So NASA Acres is NASA's U. S. focused Applied Sciences [00:18:15] So why, that's kind of a long title, NASA is principally a research agency. Now, it's not it's not USDA where it does farm services or loans or reports on statistics and agriculture. It's famous for people putting a man on the moon and missions to Mars, but NASA has this whole huge earth science division. within that, there's you know, the, the component that's dedicated to launching the satellites and making the data really high quality. And then there's an accessible data, high quality and data accessible. And then there's sort of like the core foundational research, which is. We've never used satellite data to measure this thing before, or we have used satellite data, but now we're just going to apply it elsewhere and do a study that results in a paper. [00:18:56] So we learn a thing. That's research and analysis in NASA, and then there's applied sciences and earth action, which is, it's kind of new manifestation in NASA, which is like trying to take this data and really make an impact, really get the information, the data, the tools in the hands of people who are addressing, in our case, agricultural challenges. [00:19:19] So that's farmers, that's ranchers. That's people in the ag value chain that's ag retailers, all the, I mean, there's a whole bunch of people in here who can benefit in some way from this data. And our job is to work with them to advance the science as much as possible because NASA's brand is really like quality, right? [00:19:39] And then, but also neutrality. And so we kind of just try and lift. the floor, so to speak, make the quality as good as possible, advance the science, and then hope that the private sector that's out there that's serving people in agriculture can sustain the services or, and, and really be adding value to people in agriculture long, long after our projects end. [00:20:00] Craig Macmillan: And so that, that's going to be where the next link is, is the private sector picking up this information, this data, and then figuring out how they can use it for their client base, maybe for a specific crop or a specific region, and then we can we'll see some development there. we've seen with like material science, I think is a classic example of that, you know the space program resulted in a lot of advances in materials that now we don't even think about. They're part of our everyday life, [00:20:27] Alyssa Whitcraft: Yeah, like the blankets run a [00:20:30] NASA, more than just Tang, you know, when I'm trying to like get across to people that, the planet we study most is Earth to quote Karen St. Germain, who's the Earth Science Division Director for NASA. I mean, material science is a really good example, but we have it so much in all these things that like, be them weather and climate services That's, you know, Noah's job principally to create the kind of forecasting models that are pushed out when we're talking about the United States. [00:21:02] There's people all over the world doing it and then like weather channel or weather underground or whatever, build services on top of that. And then that's like what faces the consumer. So it's all kind of a part of an important chain. And in fact, NASA is in the background collaborating with Noah on this information as well. for us in the agriculture side of things NASA harvest, which still continues today as NASA's global agriculture applied sciences program. But from 2017, when it started until 2022, it was the whole kit and caboodle. So both us global international, the whole thing. And then they split the programs. [00:21:39] So into Acres and Harvest. I was the deputy director and program manager for NASA Harvest from when it started until I took over the helm and founded NASA Acres in 2023. NASA Harvest, there's a great example of commercialization or of, of really strong collaboration with the private sector. Which is when the Ukraine war began there was obviously a huge hole in information all of a sudden about what on earth was going to happen with the food that comes out of Ukraine, which between Russia and Ukraine, it's 30 percent of the world's wheat, wheat's very correlated with conflict to begin with. And there's certain partners who are a hundred percent reliant upon imports from Ukraine and or Russia of wheat. , you don't just go drive down the street to the next grocery store and pick up your wheat. Like this is billions, trillions of dollars of movement that can't pivot overnight. So the potential implications were massive. And the more information you have earlier to plan for that, the better. And that's where satellite data came to bear. You couldn't send field agents out when there's an active war happening to be like, what was planted? Is it growing? Are farmers? Applying nutrients. [00:22:50] Is it going to be harvested? Things like that. NASA Harvest partnered with a number of organizations, but one was a private space company called Planet who collects sub meter and three meter data. daily with they have many, many small satellites and so they're, these are not the three, 400 million satellites that NASA flies. [00:23:08] These are much less expensive and they can fly way more of them. They're much smaller. They're a very different satellite. But they're great for getting high spatial resolution often. And when you can't go out and collect ground data. to do training on your images. Was this planted? Was this not planted? [00:23:25] This appears to be this crop. This appears to be this crop. Satellite data of that kind are very helpful. And so then we would use that to train some of the other satellites that have perhaps richer spectral information or other qualities that we might look for in a certain analysis. [00:23:40] And because we had this partnership with Planet, they were going out and collecting the data. We were able to do this analysis. talk about, you know, what we expected to see in terms of wheat harvest that year and sunflower and corn and rapeseed and all these really critical crops that Ukraine exports and help us prepare and mitigate any potential food security crisis and then Planet. [00:24:03] On the flip side, they've suddenly made a huge impact with their data. And they've additionally been able to, you know, we do a lot of work on the. nitty gritty of the engineering of radiometric calibration and things like that. We also can support them in improving their imagery. And then now they have a use case in agriculture and all these different kind of things by partnering with us. But we've also advanced the models and the science and the knowledge that's all a public benefit. And so that's like a really lovely investment from the federal government that kind of has this big societal benefit, but then also supports the private sector and continued innovation and services. [00:24:37] Craig Macmillan: in this case, it allows for the prediction of what may be available right? [00:24:43] Alyssa Whitcraft: Yeah. In that example, for sure. The war broke out in February and the winter wheat harvest would have been, gosh, like may to June. You're looking to see how was the, was this coming back after winter? We're, what was the condition of the crop at a baseline? Were people able to apply nutrients of any kind? And once harvest time came. Were people able to go down in the field to harvest or did they not do it because they had been killed or evacuated or because there's unexploded ordinances in their field and things like this. [00:25:13] And so that was really the beginning of the analysis and then it, it continued for other crops into the future. And it's a really rich ongoing project about which you can find copious resources online. [00:25:26] Craig Macmillan: how are we doing on, on those areas? Are there people that are stepping up in the private sector to work on that. [00:25:31] Alyssa Whitcraft: Definitely. Yeah, there are. The public sector, you know, my side of the house is too. but it's interesting. it's an interesting point because we focus so much on agronomic crops. We've done that because there's a really clear reason to invest public dollars. I think the very early stage collaboration with the private sector for specialty crops is much more critical than it was for these kind of big agronomic crops. So that means from the odd outset. the projects need to have very engaged partners from the private sector. It might be in the form of just working directly with the vineyard so that they can kind of maybe collect some of the ground data or if we're developing a tool, they can kind of like test it and provide feedback, things like that. [00:26:14] But then there's going to be other circumstances where we might be trying to use a compendium of information. So you might be using some soil sensing to look at water status. But it's like, you can't place a million of them in your field. So, you know, you might take the benefit, the accuracy, the depth that you get from those expensive and ground instruments, and then try to pair them with the satellites and then build like kind of a hybrid measurement system. [00:26:41] You get the benefit of the update frequency the satellites and the spatial coverage, of course. And then you get like the really good quality. measurements within the field. we've seen a lot of burgeoning partnerships in specialty crops and of course also agronomic commodity crops as well, but where we're trying to look at a hybrid network of in ground sensors or canopy sensors or drones. side canopy robots that my colleague Katie Gold, who was on your, podcast before, she uses these robots, Katie Gold and Yu Jiang, her collaborator at Cornell to, to sort of build toward the long term adoption of, of these, actually not even long term, to build toward the short and medium term adoption of these things, because that's real, it's really going to sustain them, NASA projects. typically three years acres and harvests are each in five year kind of increments harvest was renewed and For its global work and spit off its domestic work. And so hopefully we will be renewed as well But it's not the design of federal research to like provide every service forever We need to work with the people who need the information Because they're gonna tell us what to do and what like what matters to them You and then we need to work with the people who can kind of own the services long term and maintain those high touch relationships with their customers, growers, ag retailers, whomever it might be. [00:28:04] Craig Macmillan: Spain, places like that Australia? [00:28:06] Alyssa Whitcraft: You this is an area I'm definitely less comfortable talking about. within NASA Acres, we really only have Katie and you's project that's in specialty crops. And that's principally just by virtue of all the things I described. It's really only been the last four or five years that this stuff has started blossoming. And even within Katie's project. She's not using satellite data really, right now, she's done some demonstration stuff. We're preparing for a NASA instrument to launch in 2028. And we're doing years of preparatory work. NASA has an airborne fleet. People don't know that. And it's collecting very similar data to what will on this satellite SBG. Also, there's a sensor mounted on. The International Space Station called EMIT that also collects similar information. So we're already using that, but we're kind of like priming the pump for primetime, right? So Katie is very, Katie is like a very kind of ahead of the curve kind of situation person. The spectroscopy of the laboratory stuff, we all, we all know that it's been around for a long time, but the imaging capability to do it outside is novel. And so she and Yu are kind of working together on that. I don't have another project in my portfolio that does that right now. We are looking at using those data similarly, the hyperspectral is what it's called, data. We're starting to try and build use cases in rangeland monitoring as well for rotational grazing. [00:29:33] So looking at forage quality, it's not just a matter of whether the biomass comes back, it's whether it's the right biomass, so the right mixture of different crops. If you've overgrazed an area, you'll just get like the one dominant. type of grass will come back, and that's not very nutrient dense, and it's not very sustainable, it's not very regenerative. If you don't overgraze an area, then things will grow back in a more balanced way, and that's something that we're trying to explore, how well satellites can pick up that heterogeneity in the landscape. That's an example there. I'm aware of some work in sort of olive groves in Spain, in Italy And I know there are some companies who have attempted to do kind of proxy measurements of shade coffee and cocoa. Very high value crops, but you can't see them because they're under the canopy of another tree. And there's been a lot of different experimental ways of trying to get at that. But in terms of my understanding of how successful those different cases have been. It's a little outside my wheelhouse. It's pretty novel. and yeah, I mean, I, the, the thing about being an applied sciences program, we're not the foundational research RNA. So what that means is like, we've got to kind of see the science demonstrated fairly firmly for it to move into a major part of the portfolio. [00:30:53] That said, like there are some projects in my portfolio that are higher risk or that like, you know, that delivery might be a few years off because of the lack of instrumentation. And there are some stuff that's more experimental, but where those are the case like that Rangeland project or Katie's project That's because we have super engaged users already. So there's ranchers who are at the table for another purpose. Katie is, you know, an extension agent for Cornell working with grape and apple growers, and they want to know how to manage this. [00:31:23] So she already has engaged parties. So having the satellite stuff be like maybe a little bit more nascent and its development cycle is okay versus, you know, where we don't necessarily have the strongest user. identified and partnered already, we're kind of relying on the more mature applications and starting to kind of transition that stuff out more quickly to broader audiences. [00:31:45] Craig Macmillan: How can the wine grape industry or other crops, support this and encourage research in their particular area? [00:31:54] Alyssa Whitcraft: There's legwork on both sides meaning that we need to be with the communities we live and work in. Thank you. to get those people involved in what we have to offer. So it's like there's a trust building component, there's an awareness building component and then there's also just the participate if somebody contacts you about being in a study or, you know, by word of mouth, Oh, this vineyard down the road is doing it. [00:32:17] Like, maybe we'll do it here. I trust that person's discretion, so I'll do it here. Collaborating and being active in that research from the NASA acres perspective is, is really important. And more than just really from the NASA acres perspective, from really the kind of, you know, we're neutral, we're trying to build quality, we're trying to raise the floor. [00:32:36] So even if you come, you know, you come through us, we hopefully make things better, which feeds back benefits to you in your, in your operation, but also to your kind of broader industry. So there are some vineyards, for example that I have personal relationships with from my whole life. And when Katie and I started collaborating and, you know, just generally sharing passions for a number of things, including wine and remote sensing, She asked if I had any, you know, friends who would let her take tissue samples who thought they might have particular diseases or were just curious to collaborate so that she could kind of do this proof of concept of these technologies and do these studies. And I was like, yeah, probably. So I just shot a couple of friends text messages and they were all like, sure. And the thing is, is like, they know me, right? And so they know that I'm not going to Never do anything intentional to bring harm. And I certainly would also go work very hard to make sure that even something I hadn't foreseen was protected. And I think that that's actually so critical, probably in every industry, but I'm most comfortable in agriculture. Like these are strong communities of trust that are built up. You know, you knew my dad and when I was 15 he had a major surgery in kind of mid, late August which coincides nicely with harvest, the beginning of harvest. [00:33:57] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, the wine grape harvest in california. [00:33:59] Alyssa Whitcraft: exactly. My dad was a winemaker in in Santa Barbara County, and that's where I grew up And I grew up in the winery so yeah when I was 15 He got he got really sick And he had to have a surgery and he was in the ICU for like a week and after that like it takes a while to recover so people that he had mentored, people who he had been close with for, you know, 20 odd years, 25 years in, in the region just kind of stepped up and processed his fruit, you know? [00:34:28] So one, you miss one harvest, you're donezo, you know? Like that's just not how things work in the wine business. And my brother, who's now the winemaker, was only 19 at the time. So like, technically he wasn't even old enough to drink wine legally, but like, you know, he was there kind of. Running the ship with, you know, the huge support of these family friends who made it happen. So all that's to say, like those trust networks are everything in, in agriculture and everything in sort of agri food and like I said, probably other industries too, but I just don't know them. That's certainly the case in agriculture. And we're not going to make any like progress unless we build those trust relationships. [00:35:08] And then since we can't meet everybody face to face, we need you know, those people to then be the hinge points to bring their, their kind of collaborators, colleagues, friends business partners, whatever, to the table to tell us what they need, to tell us what they want, give us feedback on what we've done and then work with us if they see value. [00:35:27] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, I'm thinking of there are a number of organizations in the United States, in the wine industry, that fund or promote research on particular topics, and I can see there might be an opening there. you know, talking about trust, folks that have gotten awards, farmers that have been collaborators on these projects. I think it's a good place to start. For these new technologies. I think it's an interesting idea. I hadn't really thought about it that way. And I'm definitely going to take, take that away with me when I go to some of, these meetings. , and some of these, , some of these, , review, , committee [00:35:57] Alyssa Whitcraft: Related to that, so one of the things we're just beginning to kind of explore the logistics of how we would implement it is identifying sort of farmer champions or kind of innovation partners. I don't know exactly what we want to call them, but they're people who are like amenable a collaboration [00:36:17] , everybody only has so much time. So it takes time to do these things together. So if you have like a real passion or a real interest, it's something you might more willing to do. It helps us do it. the most good the most quickly. , so we're kind of looking at creating this kind of collaborator farmer innovation partner kind of thing where we work, you know, on their farms, they kind of give detailed feedback. [00:36:38] They serve as different kind of hinge points, , to meet people in their community and really be champions we're doing, but also like not just be our hype guys and hype girls out there, but just be like, Hey, what you're doing makes no sense. Or like your aunt, you know, that's great that you created this capability. [00:36:55] That gives me a forecast every week. I need it every day. Not useful to me. Things like that. So the frank feedback, , early adopters, but high touch early adopters, people who really are passionate about benefiting their industry and communities. [00:37:10] Craig Macmillan: the state of the, world right now you've mentioned nations, lots of different crops, lots of, different technologies in your work and also kind of in the future, what's happening now to move all of this forward and where do you see it going? [00:37:23] Alyssa Whitcraft: not to you know, date myself, somehow I'm one of like, the more se, I don't know senior is the right word, but like I'm no longer the young in this world. And so I've been around long enough that I started remote sensing in remote sensing of agriculture before. [00:37:39] was really on an upward trajectory. Things have changed the last 15 or 16 years. But when things were really was the food price spikes in 2008 and 2011 that led to huge, push over a billion people into chronic food insecurity. It's horrible. So let's launch this called GeoGLAN Geo Global Monitoring that's going to use satellite data to give us information about, crop production globally. [00:38:05] Some 40 odd years passed when. NASA first started doing it with Landsat. Within that GeoGLAM initiative, I was program and still in program scientist one of them. And my specific role is I work with the different space agencies in the world on developing new missions for agriculture. [00:38:20] I basically advocate for the agriculture community to make sure we get the observations we need to do our analyses. what started out is very much this like food security, markets and trade kind of stuff. Segwayed over time, as the field grew, changed, ag tech blossoming, whatever it might be. [00:38:38] And around 2019 2020 was when my specific focus started turning a little bit more, not stuff, but started zeroing in on the kind of farm level stuff. Because I got really interested in the way my discipline, my methods, my tools increasingly being used in the sort of sustainable ecosystem services marketplace. [00:39:01] Without there being a whole lot of kind of methods, development, calibration, validation, like, yeah, we can, you know, create a map, but is it any good kind of thing? Or yeah, we can create a model, but does it work? People were coming to us with the NASA harvest name and the NASA kind of name and saying, can you validate this? [00:39:17] Can you do And we all felt pretty strongly that our role was really to lift. votes for everyone. That's where we zeroed in on that topic wise in the Harvest Sustainable And Regenerative Agriculture Initiative, which we call Harvestera. I'm also the executive director of that. all these tools have advanced. [00:39:35] The need has advanced. The audience's kind of openness has advanced. The kind of critical need for us to use agriculture as a tool belt to restore ecosystem health, soil health in rich communities and fight climate change, it all kind of needs to start at a baseline of understanding where we are and where we can go. [00:39:54] And so I see satellite big part of that. This is all kind of coming together now. We still need the public sector's investment in terms of high quality observations. access, the lifting of the science in order for that to really take flight and be reliable and be good. that work that I've done for 12, 14, something like that, 13 years now through GeoGland with the space agencies has recently been morphing, into not just advocating for food security and market applications, but also saying, you guys, we got to think about ecosystem services. [00:40:25] We have to think about sustainable management. Got to think about the precision. And so the space agencies are now receiving this message that there's a whole new set of value propositions for their data, but also the public sector pushing that direction. [00:40:39] And then we like kind of push together. Toward impact. [00:40:42] Craig Macmillan: one message that you would want to tell wine growers regarding this topic? [00:40:46] Alyssa Whitcraft: Gosh, one message. [00:40:48] Craig Macmillan: Two? [00:40:51] Alyssa Whitcraft: Oh man, I guess you know, I think what a lot in my field don't think a lot about is quality Of the crops. We tend to think about quantity. Of the crops. and as a result, we can kind of answer use the wrong, use the wrong approach, answer the wrong question. And for specialty crops and I think, you know, what's finer than fine wine in, in terms of how much finesse you have to have from the 25 plus year old vines through bottling. [00:41:20] What kind of needs a higher attention to quality I think that. for the grape growing community, particularly for wine and fine wine. they could maybe help shape this and push this, put out the demand there and say like, I don't need you to tell me how to absolutely maximize, make the like juiciest, wateriest, highest volume of berries. [00:41:40] Like I need to know how to make the best quality. I need to know how to prevent losses related to extreme weather. I need to make sure I don't have my die that, I've been cultivating for so long to build these beautiful old growing and all that, they're more important than maybe they realize they are in this space and could push to really move our science and usership toward quality more than perhaps we have historically. [00:42:03] Craig Macmillan: and I really appreciate you sharing that. This has all made me think about an interview that I did recently with an extensionist from Texas A& M we were chatting after the interview actually about climate change. She said, there is not a single grower in the state of Texas that is a climate denier. [00:42:22] Everybody sees it. It is getting hotter. And things are changing and they're going to have to change. There's no doubt about it. And that reminds me of changes in other agro systems. over time whether it's changes in the way the soil fertility is, or changes in rainfall, or changes in disease patterns. I think there's applications, especially in areas that are suffering extreme stresses now, that'll apply to places that'll suffer extreme stresses, maybe a little bit later. [00:42:49] So I think that's a great message that we can bring to These programs say, Hey, we need. And here's maybe how can we do it? How can we benefit from what you're already doing? I think that's a great message. Where can people find out more about you? [00:43:01] Alyssa Whitcraft: if you want to find out more about NASA acres, you can go to org. If you want to find out more about the Harvest Sustainable and Regenerative Agriculture Initiative, that would be HarvestSara. org basically any program I've said today, you can just put a org at the end and it'll work. And if you want to learn about my family winery, it's WittcraftWinery. com And just shout out to my dad, my mom, and my brother for kind of sparking and maintaining my love of and interest in food and wine. [00:43:33] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, And just on a personal note your dad, Chris was a mentor of mine. It was one of the first winemakers That I worked side by side with and had a huge impact on me. Especially around the idea of quality. [00:43:43] Alyssa Whitcraft: Okay, so not to totally digress here, Maybe it's germane to the topic, which is I was pre med at UCLA. And I took a a geography general ed course called people in Earth's ecosystems just to fulfill a gen ed requirement and fell in love. And that professor bonded. and he did a lot of remote sensing of tropical I took his remote sensing class. We were supposed to. pick a and design it. And the picked was trying to. Compare every single metric that we could derive from satellite data for Conti, with, with some vineyards that my dad sourced from at the time so like Bien Nacido. Obeying these different vineyards and trying like in compare, I mean, it was the polar opposite of a robust study. I was like 20 and it was my first remote sensing class, but it really like capped my interest because trying to understand. Obviously there's the climate pieces to some degree, there's the soil pieces, but you know, my dad was the first or one of the first at least to do the blocks designation in wine. [00:44:45] So he had N block and Q block and Bien Nacido. And I was like, well, what was it? characteristic that made them sort of different? Could you come up with that in a way, not that we should quantify and sanitize everything because there's certainly a je about these things, but like, what is it that creates quality, ? [00:45:01] , and what of it is sort of biophysical in nature and could be measured and that kind of really sparked the interest that shaped the rest of my career. [00:45:09] Craig Macmillan: That's fantastic. I really want to thank you for being on the podcast. Our guest today was Alyssa Whitcraft. She's executive director of NASA acres, fascinating conversation and tying together some pieces from previous podcasts. Yeah, just thanks for being a guest [00:45:24] Beth Vukmanic: thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by, Baicor. A manufacturer of fertilizers, specializing in liquids for foliar and soil applications. By course, plant nutrients are 100% environmentally friendly and organically based. Each is specifically formulated to provide the optimum level of nutrients, plants need. Baicor's products. Are created from organic and amino acids found naturally in plants and in the soil. They use the finest natural materials. Blended scientifically to assure quality and effectiveness. [00:46:02] Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Alyssa NASA harvest NASA acres plus sustainable Winegrowing podcast episodes 199 NASA satellites to detect grapevine diseases from space. And 233, the gap between space and farm ground-truthing satellite data models. [00:46:21] If you'd like the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend subscribing and leaving us a review. Until next time, this is a sustainable Winegrowing with the vineyard team. Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

[00:00:00] As a member of a sustainably minded ag business, you have the potential to shape the way people view our food system. [00:00:07] Welcome to marketing tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know that customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry. These twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing. [00:00:27] There is a dramatic difference between how consumers and producers understand sustainability. While, both groups have positive perceptions of sustainable agriculture. The general public has a much more limited understanding of it and even ranked sustainability as one of their top four least understood terms. [00:00:48] Fostering a shared understanding from farm to table is key to turning sustainability into the norm. With that comes a healthier future for people and the planet. Part of the problem is that farmers themselves often don't have the time. Or the platform to communicate directly with consumers. But an educated and informed hospitality and sales team that's you can bridge the gap. And an easy way to start is by educating your team on what it means to be a sustainably minded business. [00:01:19] Tolosa winery in the Edna valley of San Luis Obispo, California created a unique way to both teach their team about sustainability and involve them in their efforts. This week's marketing tip tells their story. [00:01:33] With Tolosa is three PS groups. Employees were given the opportunity to experience sustainability firsthand. [00:01:40] Each person could join a group that focused on one of the three pillars of sustainability people, planet and prosperity. [00:01:47] Each of the groups would take their area of focus and work together to find ways to improve the businesses practices. [00:01:53] First off the people group. [00:01:55] This group focused on encouraging staff. Engagement safety communication and more. They looked into wage scales to ensure the staff was receiving fair pay And analyzed and improved safety procedures. [00:02:08] Second up is the planet group. [00:02:10] This group taught Tolosa's staff, new methods for recycling and composting, both at work and at home. When the company wanted to expand its solar field, the planet group researched soil profiles and growing conditions. On the company's property to identify the area that was least hospitable to vines. So it could be used for the expansion. [00:02:30] And thirdly, the prosperity group, [00:02:32] thanks to this group Tolosa, reduce their water by hundreds of thousands of gallons. Member's designed a water nozzle that eliminated the wineries open hose, water use. In fact, the nozzle is so good. It is now mandatory. Josh baker CEO says on average, this one small change resulted in some 380,000 gallons of water savings annually. [00:02:56] While, participation in the groups is always optional. Employees were enthusiastic to join Josh notes, that the level of staff involvement. Was a bit of a surprise. People chose to take the extra time to be a part of it. [00:03:09] Listen up SIP certified members offer your club members the chance to experience your and other SIP certified brands in February, 2025. ReSIProcal February is an annual month long event that offers tasting rooms. The opportunity to increase their traffic and connect with like-minded wine enthusiasts who value sustainability. We're enrolling participants now just go to sipcertified.org/join-resip-2025. To get signed up. You can also find that link in the show notes. [00:03:43] Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team.   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript. Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Apply for SIP Certified Wine Join ReSIProcal February 2025 Marketing Tips eNewsletter Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic What's your Sustainable Story? Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet  Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member

[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: You're tasting room is more than just a place to try your wines. It is also what your guests visualize when they hear your name or senior wine on the shelf. And it's what they tell their friends and family about when they recall their last visit. [00:00:14] Welcome to marketing tip Monday with sip certified, we know that customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable while our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry. These twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable wine growing. [00:00:32] Does your tasting room offer a memorable experience? [00:00:36] There are so many ways to make wine tasting special for tasters of any kind. Templeton based Castro Cellars has it down. They're tasting room constantly offers unique opportunities for visitors to learn something new and make memories. [00:00:51] The first two examples are for the music lovers. Every Sunday from may through October. . We're hosts, lazy locals. These free concerts invite music, lovers and wine enthusiasts to wind down and enjoy an evening of entertainment. While sipping their sustainably produced wines. [00:01:08] And if one band isn't enough. Guests can make a weekend of it at the Whale Rock Music and Arts Festival. This all ages, summer event welcomes visitors to enjoy live music, local vendors, yoga and beverages galore, including wine, beer, cider, and spirits. [00:01:25] In addition to providing a unique tasting and entertainment experience, the event has an altruistic purpose. Proceeds from the Fest are donated to the Templeton Instrumental Music Boosters Association. A volunteer organization that is dedicated to enhancing the experiences of Templeton high school musicians. [00:01:43] The second two activities are for the active [00:01:46] Wine tasting doesn't just have to be tasting wine. [00:01:49] Offer an opportunity to get active. [00:01:52] Castoro Cellars has an all level yoga class led by their in-house Yogi Lauren Udsen. It is the perfect way to start the day after the one hour class, students are invited to enjoy a delicious brunch and sparkling beverages. [00:02:05] To keep the blood pumping guests can get up close to the vines at the Whale Rock Disc Golf course, this 18 hole course. Is set in their, SIP certified and organically farmed Whale, Rock vineyard. [00:02:17] And the final two experiences are for the learners. Many vineyards offer tours. They're a great way to show off your vines and educate your guests about your unique history and farming practices. Why not kick it up a notch. [00:02:30] Vine cycle e-bike vineyard tours offer . Castoro's tourists, the opportunity to learn about their sustainable and organic farming practices while ebiking through the vineyard. After the two hour cycle guests relax, tableside and enjoy wine tasting and fresh lunch from the daily food truck. [00:02:48] Some people who are new to the world of wine are intimidated by all there is to know. Castoro also offers intimate, informative classes to teach the basics of wine tasting. Students gain an understanding of wines, intricacies and develop the tasting skills. They need to get the most out of their future tasting experiences. [00:03:07] So let us know, how will you make your next tasting and experience? [00:03:12] Listen up SIP certified members. Offer your club members, a chance to experience your and other SIP certified brands in February, 2025. ReSIProcal February is the annual month long event that offers tasting rooms. The opportunity to increase their traffic and connect with like-minded brands and wine enthusiasts who value sustainability. [00:03:33] We're enrolling participants now. Just go to sipcertified.org/join-resip- 2025. To get signed up. [00:03:44] Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team. Nearly perfect transcription by Descript.  Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Apply for SIP Certified Wine Join ReSIProcal February 2025 Marketing Tips eNewsletter Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic What's your Sustainable Story? Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet  Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member

To celebrate California Wine Month, we're highlighting winners of the California Green Medal Award. Allison Jordan, Executive Director at the California Sustainable Winegrowing Alliance shares the sustainable practices unique to each of this year's winners. From farm hiking trails open to the community to a bio fuel powered fleet, you'll be inspired by these stories. Make sure you listen to the end. Our host Craig works at Niner Wine Estates, the 2023 Green Medal Business Award Winner. He has great insights into the benefits of applying for the Green Medal that extend beyond earning the award. I have enjoyed working with the Green Medal on the steering committee and as a judge.  If you are a California vineyard or winery, I encourage you to visit greenmedal.org to apply. Applications open in November of 2024. Resources:         206: The Best Newsletter You Can Send | Marketing Tip Monday 231: Stacking Regenerative Practices to Create a Healthy Vineyard 2024 Green Medal Award Winners Allison Jordan Green Medal Awards Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript  [00:00:06] Beth Vukmanic: To celebrate California wine month. We're highlighting winners of the California green metal award. [00:00:11] Welcome to sustainable wine growing with the vineyard team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic executive director at vineyard team. Since 1994, we've brought you the latest science-based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both in-field and online education, so that you can grow your business. Please raise a glass with us as we cheers to 30 years. [00:00:36] In today's podcast Craig Macmillan, critical resource manager at Niner wine estates with long time sip certified vineyard and the first ever sip certified winery. Speaks with. Alison Jordan executive director at the California sustainable wine growing Alliance. She shares the sustainable practices, unique to each of this year's green metal winners. From farm hiking trails, open to the community, to a biofuel powered fleet. You'll be inspired by these stories. And make sure you listen to the end. [00:01:07] Our host Craig works at Niner wine estates winner of the 2023 business award. He has some great insights into the benefits of applying for the green metal that extend beyond earning the achievement. [00:01:19] I personally have had the pleasure of serving on the green metal steering committee. And as a judge, if you're a California vineyard or winery, I encourage you to visit green metal.org to apply applications open in November of 2024. [00:01:34] Do you want access to the latest viticulture research and technology from the world's top experts, then you won't want to miss the premiere Winegrowing event of the year, the sustainable ag expo. Enjoy the perfect blend of in-person and online learning. Speak directly with national experts, earn over 20 hours of continuing education and explore sustainable ag vendors. It all takes place November 11th through 13th, 2024 in San Luis Obispo, California. As a listener to this podcast, take $50 off of your ticket. When you use code podcast 24 at checkout. Get yours today at sustainableagexpo.org. Now let's listen in. [00:02:14] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Allison Jordan. She is executive director of a California sustainable wine growing alliance. And today we're going to be talking about the green medal awards. Hey allison, thanks for being on the podcast. [00:02:30] Allison Jordan: Great to be with you. thanks so much for having me. [00:02:32] Craig Macmillan: So let's start with some basics. What is the California sustainable wine growing alliance? And in particular, what is it? What are its goals? And what's it doing to achieve those goals? [00:02:42] Allison Jordan: Well, the California Sustainable Wine Growing Alliance is a partnership that was created by Wine Institute and the California Association of Wine Grape Growers back in 2003 as a nonprofit organization that's all about promoting sustainability from grapes to glass. some of the ways that we do that, especially the whole idea of encouraging adoption of sustainable wine growing practices is also around communicating about it so we can really tell the story about California's leadership in sustainability. [00:03:14] And we do that through education, through outreach, through certification, and also through partnerships. So for instance, the vineyard team is a great partner of ours and us. Fantastic work. Not only in the central coast, but also throughout the state. [00:03:31] Craig Macmillan: Thank you. I know that we've really enjoyed and benefited from our work with you. And also around the Green Medal Awards. what exactly are the Green Medal Awards? how did that come about? What was the purpose of creating the awards? [00:03:45] Allison Jordan: So during Down to Earth Month each April, which is a chance to really highlight California wine community sustainability leadership we also celebrate the California Green Medal. The full name of the awards is the California Green Medal Sustainable Wine Growing Leadership Awards. And it's our way of recognizing industry leaders. [00:04:06] So those who wineries and vineyards that are really using advanced sustainability practices. They're innovating and they're sharing that information with their peers. It really was a way for all of the different California sustainability programs to come together. [00:04:21] We're all really about elevating sustainability. And so we came together with not only the Sustainable Wine Growing Alliance, which of course is this partnership with CAWG and with Wine Institute, but also with the Vineyard Team and Lodi Wine Grape Commission. Napa Valley Vintners and Napa Green, and also the Sonoma County Wine Growers, so that we could all be part of celebrating and shining a spotlight on these leaders. [00:04:46] Craig Macmillan: I think that's one of the really great things about this. And my understanding is that you actually have representatives from different organizations that are part of the review committee for the applications and also part of the cross promotion. Is that right? [00:04:57] Allison Jordan: That's right. Yeah, so all of those organizations are involved and participate in the judging panel. We also have experts from universities, the wine education field some representatives from retailers and, and some somellier have. Participated in the past. So we try to have that really well rounded group that can be reviewing the applications from wineries and vineyards around the state. [00:05:20] Craig Macmillan: that's really fantastic that you have expertise from around different fields and different areas. I think that gives it a lot of weight and a lot of legitimacy. So let's get to the purpose of all this. So who are the 2024 green medal award winners and what are some of the sustainable practices that they employed that garnered them this recognition? [00:05:39] Allison Jordan: Sure. I'll just run down the list. So every year we give four green medals and they are in the categories of leader. So sort of the overall. Embracing sustainability also in the areas of environment, community, and business. And this again helps us really share in lots of different ways what sustainability is all about. [00:05:58] So for the Leader Award this year, which again is all around that excelling in all three areas of sustainability, being environmentally sound, socially equitable, economically viable. It goes to the Lang Twins family winery and vineyards. They're based in San Joaquin County, just north of Lodi, and have been very involved in sustainability, both in the Lodi region, but statewide for, for many, many years. [00:06:22] Really, since the inception of our programs. And if you think back further, because it's a generational business they've been embracing sustainability since the early seventies. just some of the examples of things that they've done. They've done a lot around habitat restoration projects. I've actually had the chance to just go in and do a walking tour just a couple of weeks ago, and it's just impressive how they've really repaired that riparian habitat, working with local youth and providing hands on environmental stewardship education for them. [00:06:53] But they also started off as a family of growers and built a state of the art winery. Just within the last decade or so and they really included a lot of energy efficient design and solar power technology. So just a really great example. thinking back some of the other past winners in the leader category are Treasury Americas, Wente Family Estates, O'Neill, Vintners and Distillers, and J. Lohr Vineyards and Wines. So some really great examples of leaders in our industry. [00:07:25] The next category would be community. of course, this is all around what vineyards or wineries do to enhance relationships, not only with their employees, but also with the broader community and with their neighbors. [00:07:39] And this year it goes to Cooper Garrod vineyards at Garrod farms, which is a beautiful vineyard and winery, and also a horse farm in the Santa Cruz mountains. really I've known. Doris and Bill for years, Bill was a former chair of the California Sustainable Wine Growing Alliance, and they just give their whole heart to their community. [00:08:00] They have done things like pioneering the FireWise Community Initiative. They actively participate in benefits for their schools, for mental health. They participate in the Chambers of Commerce and the industry groups. And also to foundations. they really invite the community in so they can use their farm's hiking trails and participate in winemaker walks and all kinds of really fun ways to learn about sustainability. [00:08:26] And just thinking back again on some of the past winners in this category, we had Cake Bread Cellars, McManus Family Vineyards, and Smith Family Wines. And there are two more. Do you want me to take a breath or do you want me to keep going? [00:08:40] Craig Macmillan: no. Keep going. This is great. Yeah. [00:08:42] Allison Jordan: All right. So the third category is the environment. Something that I think people think of a lot when they think about sustainability. [00:08:50] there are those vineyards and wineries that are really maximizing environmental benefits. And this year it goes to Gloria Ferrer in the Sonoma region of Carneros. they use regenerative organic farming practice is something we're hearing a lot about. Regenerative is, is the new buzzword in the world of sustainability. [00:09:06] they're introducing biodiverse cover crops implementing high intensity sheep grazing. They create biochar and really thinking a lot about how do you build healthy soils and minimize your overall environmental impact. They've also established wildlife habitat with things like hedgerows and pollinator friendly areas and nesting sites. So they're really attracting that wildlife into their property and fostering biodiversity. [00:09:33] And I can think of some really great past winners too. Tobless Creek, Trefethen, Scheid Family Wines, and also Halter Ranch Vineyards. [00:09:41] So again, some stellar examples of environmental stewardship. [00:09:45] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. Very heady. [00:09:46] Allison Jordan: yeah, exactly, exactly. And we have the Business Award as the final category. And this is given to the Vineyard or winery that best demonstrates smart business practices. So things like looking for those efficiencies and related cost savings and innovation. [00:10:05] And this year's winner for that category is Vino Farms. They are a vineyard management company based in Lodi, but they farm all over the state and they've used all kinds of different advanced technology, for instance, for water use efficiency, they've used Tule towers and soil moisture probes and ceres imagery. [00:10:27] And the idea is to really understand water needs to prevent overwatering and to make sure they have uniform water distribution. And, of course, this can lead to substantial cost savings in addition to saving water. They've also done things like releasing beneficial insects via drones. To reduce the need for pesticide applications. [00:10:46] And of course, again, the associated costs with that. And then they've also done a lot to embrace renewable energy. So they transitioned all of their trucks and tractors to biofuel since 2010. So going way back They use solar panels in their vineyards to power ranch shops and also water pumps. [00:11:06] And some of the other examples of this category winners are Niner Wine Estates, Jackson Family Wines and Monterey Pacific. So some really good examples of both vineyards and wineries that have done some amazing work that are really driving that innovation. [00:11:23] Craig Macmillan: Did you say this is the 10th year? Is that right? [00:11:25] Allison Jordan: It's right. It's the 10th year. So we've now had close to 40 recipients of the Green Medals. We've had a couple of that have won multiple years Tablas Creek being one of them, Trinchero Family Winery being one. So when you look at the full picture, it's probably around 36 different recipients of the award. [00:11:43] And if you visit greenmedal. org, you can see all of the current and past winners and some video highlights of the winners. And just, it's a great way to learn really delve into what does sustainable wine growing mean on the ground. [00:11:56] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, it's, it's another way of having that kind of farmer to farmer, winery to winery contact to see what people are doing and, and how they've made it work and kind of encourages people to try things for themselves. [00:12:09] Allison Jordan: Exactly. Get some good ideas of things that you might want to talk to them about. And I think that's another key thing about wine growing. Virtually all of our green metal recipients, I feel like are leaders in that they're willing to share that information and participate in field days and workshops and all of the things that all of our organizations do to advance sustainability. [00:12:28] And when you look at it, it's amazing. We're the fourth largest wine producing region in the world. And today we have 85 percent of California wine being made in a certified sustainable winery and 67 percent of the acreage is certified to one of the California programs. So it's really exciting to see that level of adoption. [00:12:47] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, we've come a long way. [00:12:49] Allison Jordan: We really have. [00:12:50] Craig Macmillan: We really have. Thanks to the efforts of folks like you. [00:12:53] Allison Jordan: It's been a pleasure to be working in this field for now over 20 years, which is hard to believe. [00:12:57] Craig Macmillan: I know, I know. Is there one thing that you would tell growers regarding this topic in terms of either applying for awards or how to use what you can find from award winners? [00:13:10] Allison Jordan: Yeah. So I feel like the awards is one example of how you really have to think of all of the costs and benefits of sustainable wine growing. And as you explore specific practices to make sure they make sense for your operation. One of the things that I think comes to those vineyards and wineries that are adopting sustainable wine growing is the ability to share their story and the positive public relations around it. [00:13:35] And we can help amplify that through things like the Green Metal Awards. The green metal.org website has lots of great information about, again, the practices being used by the recipients. But also you can learn how to apply if you're a vintner or grower for the 2025 awards the applications will most likely open up around November. [00:13:55] So keep an eye out then and they tend to be due in January. So We will be getting the word out in lots of different ways through the vineyard team and all of our partners and through the California Sustainable Wine Growing Alliance. But you can also just periodically check out greenmetal. org to see if there's any new information about it. [00:14:14] Craig Macmillan: So we've got greenmiddle. org is a great resource. Where else can people find out more about you and your organization? [00:14:20] Allison Jordan: Our organizational website is sustainablewinegrowing. org. We also have one for, basically for more our, our Interested consumers and retailers and other stakeholders. That's all around certification. And that's California sustainable wine.com. And then the last one I'll mention is, is again, just showing the breadth and depth of all of the different initiatives across the state. [00:14:42] So in honor of 30 years of all of the different sustainable initiatives in the state, we put together a website called californiasustainablewinegrowing. org and it has a retrospective of some of the really key milestones. That all of our respective programs have done. So if you're looking for some of that history of how this idea and this approach has evolved in California, that's a really great place to look. [00:15:09] Craig Macmillan: Cool. Well thanks so much for being on the podcast. This is really great. And I'm really happy that we can support some of these leaders and get some of these messages out there. I think it's really important and it's been the mission of all of these organizations. And so to be able to come together for something like this is really great. [00:15:23] Allison Jordan: Yes. It's one of my favorite things of the year. So looking forward to celebrating the winners. [00:15:28] Craig Macmillan: our guest today has been Allison Jordan. She's executive director of the California sustainable wine growing alliance, and we've been talking about the green metal awards here today. Please, by all means, check out the resources we've talked about and think about applying. So I worked for Niner Wine Esates, so we won the business category. [00:15:45] And what we found as we went about it was, it was a great process internally, to list and think about all the things we've been doing. And what we realized was We were doing a lot of things in a variety of areas and you don't see that you're always focused on whatever the current project is, right? [00:16:07] You're always focused on fixing whatever. And when we stopped and actually kind of meditated on it, it was like, wow, you know, there's a lot that we're doing and a lot that's going on. And then it also helped us identify areas where we thought, Hey, you know, maybe we haven't paid attention to this. [00:16:17] Like maybe we should. And I just think that process, regardless of whether you're a winner or not is really valuable. It's a good exercise for people. [00:16:25] Allison Jordan: Yeah, that's a great, great insight. And I do feel like, you know, certification is a great way to tell, to tell a story. your story, but to add credibility to what you're doing, but you still need those examples. And so taking the time to compile those and to really show what you're doing, what you're exceptional at I think is a really great exercise. [00:16:44] So fantastic point, Craig. [00:16:46] Craig Macmillan: All right. Thanks, Allison. [00:16:47] Allison Jordan: Thanks. [00:16:48] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by San Agro. Westbridge is now San Agro. When the opportunity came to expand their reach and improve the customer's bottom line, they took it. San Agro's commitment to deliver science based solutions for both sustainable crop health And nutrition remains the same. [00:17:11] They offer a full line of plant nutrients, biopesticides, and specialty inputs. Visit san agro. com to learn more, [00:17:20] make sure you check out the show notes for links to all of the 2024 green medal award winners to learn more about Alison and to apply for the 2025 green medal award. You could also listen in to sustainable wine growing podcast episodes. 206, the best newsletter you can send featuring Niner Wine Estates talking about their green medal award and 231 stacking regenerative practices to create a healthy vineyard with a member of the Langtwids family. [00:17:49] If you liked the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts at vineyardteam. org slash podcast, and you can reach us at podcast at vineyardteam. org. Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team. Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: For your wine club members. Is there anything more exciting than delivery day? Unboxing the latest assortment, stir sweet memories of their last visit to the winery and welcomes them to once again, connect with your community. [00:00:13] Welcome to marketing tip Monday with sip certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While, our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry. These twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable. Winegrowing. [00:00:32] Your wine club newsletter prepares your customer for the delights ahead, but does it invite them to relish in the social and environmental virtues of their loyalty? [00:00:42] Next time you send out a newsletter, include a sustainability tidbit. So your brands enthusiasts know that they're sipping sustainably. [00:00:50] You can start by including a brief description of the sustainable practices at your property. For SIP certified brands, we talk about the seven values. Which includes social responsibility, wiper management, safe, pest management. Energy efficiency, habitat business, and always evolving. [00:01:08] A great way to help your customers really see what you're doing to be sustainable is to share your sustainable story. [00:01:15] You can talk about attracting barn owls and releasing beneficial insects to help manage pests naturally. [00:01:22] You can share pictures of the native plants in your cover crop and explain how they benefit pollinators and help improve soil health. [00:01:28] Or you could talk about how you treat winery, process water. So that it can be reused to irrigate the landscape or the vineyard. [00:01:36] Your customers will love learning how your brand conserves and protects natural resources. Tell Your Sustainable Story [00:01:42] If you need more ideas, make sure you check out our newly updated course. We spent over 40 hours writing new sustainable stories, refining our training module and recording and editing video content to bring you an updated online course. [00:01:58] The simple yet powerful free tool will help you tell your own personal sustainable message. Go to the show notes, click on the title. Tell your sustainable story to sign up and start writing yours today.  Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team. Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Apply for SIP Certified Wine Marketing Tips eNewsletter Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic What's your Sustainable Story? Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet  Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Allison Jordan joined Wine Institute and the California Sustainable Winegrowing Alliance (CSWA) in 2003, shortly after the publication of the California Code of Sustainable Winegrowing. Since 2007, she has served as the Executive Director of the Alliance and Vice President, Environmental Affairs for Wine Institute. Previously, she was a Senior Associate at SureHarvest and Vice President and Executive Director of Resource Renewal Institute. Jordan holds a master of Public Policy from the Goldman School at UC Berkeley and a Psychology bachelor's degree from Allegheny College, a Certificate in Wine Business Management from Sonoma State University and WSET Level 2 from the Wine & Spirit Education Trust. Allison Joins Sustainable Nation to Discuss: Keys to successful adoption of California Sustainable Winegrowing Alliance's certification program Interest from buyers in third party verification CSWA's Green Medal Award program How wineries are engaging with suppliers to pursue certification Advice and recommendations for sustainability professionals Allison's Final Five Questions Responses: What is one piece of advice you would give other sustainability professionals that might help them in their career? To take time to think creatively about partnerships. One of the ways that we've made big advances is by just getting really creative and reaching out to people that we know are working in the space, whether it's in winegrowing or something tangential that maybe could be really beneficial to our industry. We've been able to make incredible progress, get experts involved, get new resources that can really help match our industry support for our efforts. Really thinking about how we can support each other in this very complex, comprehensive area of sustainability. What are you most excited about right now in the world of sustainability? That there's so much awareness now about climate change, that it's bringing new energy, new ideas, technology. I don't think technology is the full solution, but there's certainly exciting things happening that will help us leapfrog and make progress. There's a lot of positive energy in finding solutions. Interestingly, my daughter is currently a junior in a program at our local high school called the Marin School of Environmental Leadership and their curriculum is all around climate and environmental solutions. Seeing her class and some of the products they had to come up with as juniors, sustainable products that they're currently marketing, it's just incredibly inspiring because you can see that it's just the way that the next generation thinks. I'm inspired by that. What is one book you would recommend sustainability professionals read? I'd have to recommend a book that I use. I'm teaching a sustainable enterprise course for the Sonoma State Executive Wine MBA program right now. I have them read Andrew Savits, the Triple Bottom Line. It's just a really great basic understanding of what sustainability means for business and how it's evolved over time and the trajectory that we're on that basically shows that this is an imperative, not a nice to have. I just think it does a great job of introducing all of the key concepts for those who may be newer to the sustainability world. Even for those who've been in it for a long time, it's a good reminder of the basic framework and concepts that are really key. What are some of your favorite resources or tools that really help you in your work? The first thing that pops into my mind is people. I go to so many experts, Josh, you're one of them, on issues that I know they have more expertise than I have. The other resource that I turn to time and time again, which is kind of funny because I've been involved in helping to develop a lot of the resources in it, but it's still a really great repository of information. That's our resources library on sustainablewinegrowing.org. I can always stand to be refreshed on certain topics and it's a great way to point people to resources that they might need as well. Where can our listeners go to learn more about you and the work being done at the California Sustainable Winegrowing Alliance? The website that is the most core to what we do as an organization is sustainablewinegrowing.org. That's where you'll find the resources library about the organization, ways to get involved, etc.

For thousands of years, wildfires have produced a byproduct known to improve soil and plant health -  biochar. Today, researchers like Kelpie Wilson of Wilson Biochar Associates, Consulting and Manufacturing are learning how to use this form of charcoal for carbon sequestration. Kelpie explains the different stages of combustion, what types of material to include in your burn pile, incorporating biochar into compost, how to use biochar to amend alkaline or acetic soils, and an easy way to remove vineyard wires from your pile. Resources:         56: Conservation Burning and Biochar 106: What? Bury Charcoal in the Vineyard? 167: Use Biochar to Combat Climate Change 215: Biochar Production on a Commercial Scale A Case of Biochar Use in Vineyards – Doug Beck A magnifying glass on biochar strategy: long-term effects on the soil biota of a Tuscan vineyard Biochar Use in Viticulture (US Biochar Initiative webinar link) Deep incorporation of organic amendments into soils of a ‘Calardis Musqué' vineyard: effects on greenhouse gas emissions, vine vigor, and grape quality Long-Term Application of Biochar Mitigates Negative Plant–Soil Feedback by Shaping Arbuscular Mycorrhizal Fungi and Fungal Pathogens Ring of Fire Biochar Kiln The Biochar Handbook: A Practical Guide to Making and Using Bioactivated Charcoal Vineyard Field Trial with Biochar and Compost_ 5th Harvest Report Wilson Biochar Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: For thousands of years, wildfires have produced a by-product known to improve soil and plant health. This is known as bio char. Welcome to sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth organic executive director. And since 1994 vineyard team has brought you the latest science-based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both in-field and online education, so that you can grow your business. Please raise a glass with us as we cheers to 30 years. In today's podcast Craig Macmillan, critical resource manager at Niner wine estates with long time SIP certified vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery. He speaks with Kelpie Wilson of Wilson, biochar associates consulting in manufacturing. Kelpie explains the different stages of combustion. What types of material to include in your burn pile? Incorporating bio char into compost. How to use bio char to amend alkaline or acidic soils and an easy way to remove vineyard wires from your pile. If you love this topic, then you won't want to miss Josiah Hunt's presentation. Practical applications of pyrogenic, organic material, AKA biochar in vineyards. He shares his expertise at the sustainable ag expo taking place November 12th or 13th, 2024 in San Luis Obispo, California. joy, the perfect blend of in-person and online learning. Speak directly with national experts. Earn over 20 hours of continuing education and explore sustainable ag vendors. As a listener to this show, you can take $50 off of your ticket when you use code podcast 24 at checkout. Get yours today@sustainableagexpo.org. Now let's listen in. [00:02:00] Craig Macmillan: Our guest, today is Kelpie Wilson. She's the owner of Wilson Biochar Associates, consulting and manufacturing. And as you may have guessed today, we're going to talk about biochar. Welcome to the podcast, Kelpie. [00:02:08] Kelpie Wilson: Thanks. Thanks for having me. [00:02:11] Craig Macmillan: What exactly is biochar? [00:02:13] Kelpie Wilson: Biochar is just charcoal, but it's special charcoal that, uh, you can use in soil or for purposes of carbon sequestration. That's the official definition from the International Biochar Initiative. [00:02:27] Craig Macmillan: And what does biochar do for us in the vineyard? [00:02:30] Kelpie Wilson: Well, it sequesters carbon, so it's a very stable form of carbon. Uh, Carbon comes in a lot of different forms. I mean, we're all made of carbon, and, you know, carbon can be a diamond, which is really stable, or it can be in a sugar, which, uh, you um, oxidized into CO2 pretty quickly. So uh, in is very, in a very stable form um, it's called aromatic carbon, so it's fused carbon rings. which are the basis of all organic chemistry. biochar is. It's carbon. The thing about biochar and charcoal is that charcoal can have, you know, widely ranging different properties depending on how you make it and what it's made from. And I should add also that uh, in the definition of biochar, For use in soil or for use in carbon sequestration, it needs to be made from organic you know, that is clean. So there are some environmental kind of limits around it that ensure that it's, it's really contributing to the carbon cycle in a positive way and that we're not making Materials that have, you know, toxics in them that could hurt soil. [00:03:41] Craig Macmillan: So we're introducing carbon in a fairly stable people have told me that the carbon that you put into the soil in the form of biochar could be there for thousands of years, but it's obviously available somehow, or it's involved in the soil microbiome somehow, or it's involved in nutrient cycling somehow. What are some of the properties that contribute to that soil health component, [00:04:00] Kelpie Wilson: Well, There's there's quite a few. The interesting thing about biochar is that it's naturally present in soils in many, many parts of the world because of fire, from vegetation fires, forest fires, it's it's supposed to be there in many cases. Uh, Especially here in the, in the in the west coast where we uh, natural fire regime in the forest. And if you look at the most productive soils in the world, for instance, the mollisols in Iowa or the um, in the Eurasian steppe, they have large amounts of biochar Um, In the case of the steppes and the plains, that's because of prairie fires. So you have these tall, tall grasses that would periodically burn off very regularly, like every 10 years or so, and the top would burn off in a flame, and that heat would radiate you know, kind of just above the root zone, the grasses are bunched up really thick, and some air is excluded, so they wouldn't burn all the way to ash, but the heat would turn it to char, the flame would move on, and you'd be left with char, and so this char builds up over years and centuries, and, you know, hundreds of centuries to make this a very black soil and then there are other places around the world historically going back thousands of years where it was deliberately to add to soil. So those are the terra preta soils in the Amazon naturally normally didn't have a lot of fires. And look, also can look at charcoal middens around ancient villages and even city states where people would dump their manure and their, you know, their hue manure, their night soil, and they would always deodorize it with charcoal and ash, and you find very fertile black soils in those places. So, it's not a new thing um, but we just kind of recently rediscovered So, as far as what it does in soil, you know, it doesn't break down. Like, you know, you asked, well, then how does it feed the It it sets the table. So It's the stable carbon with these fused carbon rings. It doesn't break down easily. And we'll also have the mineral ash. from the vegetation that burned. And so that's food. And then it also needs the carbs and the protein. So, and that comes from all the fertilizer that you add to it. So it basically sets the table for soil life because microbes like to sit down when they eat. And so you have all these little surfaces. In the charcoal, it's very, very porous. You know, think of activated carbon. People know that activated carbon is used for filtration. It's got all these pores. And so, in that way, it's kind of like a sponge. It can hold air and soil, which is beneficial. But also, there's the surface area. So, each of those tiny pores has a surface around it. And when you add up all the surface area, and this is kind of mind boggling, It's But you take a teaspoon of, of or, you know, that's got a lot of surface area or an activated carbon and it can have a football field's worth of surface area all inside It's, you know, it's, it's, it's amazing to think about, but all those surfaces are where the microbes can sit down and attach themselves. And if we, if we have added fertilizer as well, there are nutrients and water. Attached to those surfaces by electrostatic attraction. So the microbes just can hang out there and, and it's all there for them. So that's how biochar promotes um, the soil food web by, uh, promoting the microbes. And then the their mycelia in there to, you know, get it's a foundation of good soil. [00:07:42] Craig Macmillan: And you were talking about the fertilizer part. Is that one of the reasons why it's a good idea or a common practice to mix biochar with compost and spread it in that form? [00:07:50] Kelpie Wilson: Yes, but I would not just mix it with compost if I have any choice at all. I would put it in the beginning of the composting That's where you're going to get the most benefit know, it just takes time for all these things to come And so If you start it from the beginning, not only do you get the nutrients and the biology in there right you're um, having um, beneficial impact on your composting So, You'll have fewer greenhouse gas uh, the compost will get hotter quicker uh, and you know, the char will absorb any kind of nasty stuff that's in there, reduce odors, etc. it's really, The thing about biochar and to make it really work for you in a, in a farm um, is to get every, Benefit you can out of it. And there's a whole cascade of benefits that come with biochar. [00:08:40] Craig Macmillan: we can talk about that some more, but let's get to some practical things. Let's say I'm interested in this. I've been hearing about it. I'm excited about it. I want to try this out. How can I make some high quality biochar with the least amount of emissions and the highest biochar production on my farm? [00:08:57] Kelpie Wilson: Great So I've been working on this for quite a while. When I first heard about biochar, it was, I think, 2007, and it was the terra preta soils that we were all hearing about. I immediately got involved in it. I went to work for the International Biochar you know, was in close touch with people all around the world. that we're trying to find ways to start making and using biochar, and a lot of the first people to actually do it were people who uh, you know, making little cook stoves or just making biochar in burn piles, and I saw that myself because I live in the woods here in Oregon, and I'd go out to where they did burn piles to, you know, We had a lot of extra vegetation that had to be thinned to protect from wildfire. And I'd go to these burn piles and I'd find little chunks of charcoal left in them. And so we started making, doing experiments to see if we could optimize that. And we figured out make, take a burn pile and light it from the top. So it burned from the top down, and that would burn up a lot of the smoke so it was cleaner, and also leave us with a little pile of glowing coals at the end. And anybody who's made a campfire has seen this. You have that pile of glowing coals, and if you just walk away and leave it, it'll all go to ash. But if you just simply put it out with water, hey, you've got biochar. So that's the way to start, and you can can do it in your a, with a kettle grill. You know, just a little container that will improve the biochar recovery because if you cut off the air that comes in from and the sides of your you, you will just burn less of it to And again, you just put it out with water. So then I started making containers to improve the efficiency. compared to making biochar in an open burn pile, if you put it in a container, You can make three or four times as much so, I've been working with little containers ever those, We call those flame cap kilns. Because the idea of how they work is you put your, make your burn pile in a container. It's cutting off air from the bottom and the sides. So all the air comes from the And as it burns down, you keep adding more. And every time you add more material, it flames up. And the char that you've already formed on the bottom is protected from air by the container. And it's protected from air from the top because all the air that comes in is used in the flame of the currently burning material. And so what you've already made is, is protected from oxygen. So you can build up a huge pile of char in a container, and you're only limited by the size of your container, really. [00:11:34] Craig Macmillan: So the practice is put your feedstock in a container something that cuts off the bottom the sides from the air Light it from the top with kindling or something I would assume something lighter weight and then as that process goes and you can see the material come back Well, is it truly combustion if there's not a lot of oxygen? [00:11:51] Kelpie Wilson: Well, uh, I call it combustus interruptus. So basically it is combustion, but combustion happens in stages. Okay. myths combustion. One is um, wood wood burns, wood does not burn. Wood gas burns in a And you can see this if you look at your charcoal grill, you see, there's not a flame. Because the gas has already been mostly, you know, burned out of it. And so it just glows. So there's different stages of combustion. The first one is dehydration. When you heat a stick of um, water's going to come off of it, because water doesn't burn. And then the gases come out, and those are, methane, carbon burnable, burnable gases, and those make the flame. And then when the flame goes out, you know, you just, that glowing coal stage. So it's, it's really staged combustion, and you're just interrupting and saving the char. [00:12:49] Craig Macmillan: If I understand you correctly by putting more material on the top I'm continuing that process. The stuff on this top is heating up. You're getting that, flame cap. So you described it. And I can just keep layering on until my container's full. Basically. [00:13:04] Kelpie Wilson: Yep, that's how we do [00:13:06] Craig Macmillan: I want to come back to the kiln idea, but first, what are the, what are good feedstocks to make biochar from? What are feedstocks that are not good for making biochar? Right. Right. Uh [00:13:19] Kelpie Wilson: Good feedstocks are dry. You don't want a lot of wet stuff, because you use a lot of energy burning the wet. , Good feedstocks are also appropriately sized. So grapevines, for instance, are good because they're not really big. Even the trunk of a vine is not really big. And so if you try to put a big log in your container on your fire, you use so much energy to get the heat into the center of the log. So it's a progressive thing, right? You're charring the outside, and the heat's moving in, it's charring and charring and charring. But meanwhile, the outside of your char is starting to burn to ash. So it's not very efficient to try and char a big log. The kind of limit depends a lot on the fuel moisture. In Utah, we're We have really dry wood. People are putting six and eight inch diameter logs in a kiln and doing fine. In Oregon, I kind of keep it to four inches, usually. But you know, we could do bigger stuff. It's just not quite as efficient. So dry less than 25 percent moisture is ideal. We can do wetter stuff, and we often do because we're here in the middle of winter trying to get burn piles taken care of. So we go ahead and do it, and there's some techniques for optimizing how you do that, how you load it. But dry, less than 25%. and not too big, but also not too small. I've really tried hard to biochar hemp stalks, for instance, which are abundant around here, and they're just a little too small. if they're dry, they do pretty well, but you have to really make sure you don't pack them in too tightly because, small, small things like straw, and crop waste like that, they will pack and cut off the airflow and you'll get smoke. [00:15:07] Craig Macmillan: Oh, okay. [00:15:08] Kelpie Wilson: That's the main issue is you get smoke. And then as far as what species, the main difference between different species of wood, for instance, is density. And because we're making biochar in a flame, we're making it at a very high temperature. So it's, as long as we're not smoldering it, As long as we have the flame present, we know we're making it at a high enough temperature to burn out most of the volatiles. Know, some species like eucalyptus or walnut might have chemicals in them that are allelopathic, I think is the term. And if you add a lot of that to soil, you could have problems. But as long as we're making it at high temperature, we burn most of that out. [00:15:50] Craig Macmillan: Got it. So we want things that are dry. We want things that are woody, that are relatively high in concentration. Things like grasses are probably not going to work as well or work terribly well. It sounds like you want chunks basically, you know, something about the size of your forearm or a little bit bigger chunk would be a really great, size. [00:16:09] Kelpie Wilson: that's a great way to look at it. I like the physical measurements. You know, I was telling woofers here the other day about how to, make biochar compost. And so we're doing it in layers. And I just said, think about Parmesan cheese. When you add the biochar, if you really like Parmesan on your pizza, just add the biochar like that. So those kinds of physical measurements are really helpful for people when they're learning how to use biochar. [00:16:33] Craig Macmillan: and returning to that topic you recommend putting biochar in your composting windrows at the beginning as part of the whole process. [00:16:41] Kelpie Wilson: Yes. The very beginning when I think about a vineyard, especially one where you're actually making the wine know, you're pressing the grapes and you have the is it called pomace? I think the grape skins that's easily degradable stuff. It's hard to, compost just on its own because it doesn't have much carbon, but if you add biochar to that, you can make a beautiful compost. And then great for reducing on farm inputs. contributing to the circular economy. And that's always how I recommend people use biochar if possible, is find whatever other organic waste streams are there, whether it's grass clippings, grape pomace, leaves, anything else, manure that you might have, mix it right in there. [00:17:27] Craig Macmillan: Makes tons of sense. Okay. Let's get down to the nitty gritty here. We've touched on kilns as a way of getting the highest production. Tell me about the Ring of Fire Kiln system the concept in general. And then what might, what might be a biochar production day like? [00:17:42] Kelpie Wilson: The Ring of Fire kiln is my latest, greatest design. Just bin kilns, but they were heavy. So They were, weighing a lot, and you had to, move them around, and very hard for one person. So I came up with this modular design of panels. And so you can hook them together. They're four feet long and 40 inches tall, and they have a bracket that hooks them all together, and you can make a kiln any size you want. with that. I mean, not too big, but usually we make kilns that are between six feet and 12 feet in diameter. And so that can accommodate the piles you already have, for instance. And then the other innovation with that kiln is it has a heat shield. And that's really important for two reasons. One is it holds more heat in the kiln so you get more production. It's more efficient. But the other one is that it protects the worker. Because when you are around a giant , flaming pile, you know, you can really get fried just from the radiant heat. You know, you're not burning up, but you, the radiant heat, I would come away from some of my sessions with very red skin and very dehydrated. And so we really think a lot about the workers who are doing this. Because it's mostly hand labor, although we can also load the bigger kilns with, machinery. that's the Ring of Fire Kiln. It's also very, very clean, and there's a gap between the heat shield and the inner ring that allows, um, air to come through, and then so you have preheated air that's going in from the top into the kiln. And that also helps a lot with, uh, Reducing the smoke. And I have lots of pictures and videos showing the smoke being sucked into the kiln from the top. It's really cool to see these loops of smoke kind of coming up and then being sucked back down into the kiln. Those are the advantages of the ring of fire kiln in addition to the fact that it's modular. One person can take it apart and move it one panel at a time. The panels only weigh less than 40 pounds and set it up somewhere else. That's, that's the other advantage of the ring of fire kiln. So a typical workday, and I'm going to quote some numbers from my colleague Eric Meyer, who has Napa char, and he's done some incredible work in vineyards in the last couple years. Here's what he says He can make up to 12 cubic yards of biochar per kiln per day, which is two bone dry tons. And that is equivalent to two to three acres of pulled mines. he'll do this usually with one helper. Sometimes he'll have a, a mini excavator that he uses to load it, but a lot of times he's just doing it, you know, as hand labor. And so that's a ;lot of biochar, two tons of biochar in one day. He'll start by arriving at the site, setting up his kiln, and then just hand loading the biochar initially, fill it full, light it on top. There's a little break where you let it burn down till you start seeing glowing coals at the bottom and, some ash on the top. And then you just load it one layer at a time. And the loading rate is really critical. If you overload, you get smoke and you'll end up maybe even with unburned pieces in the bottom because the flame moves up in the kiln as you add more material and the bottom starts cooling off.  You don't want to leave any big pieces at the bottom. We load small pieces initially. And if you have bigger pieces, you would load them kind of toward the end or in the middle. And then when it's all full of biochar, or you're just done for the day because you're tired, you get some water out and you spray the kiln down with water just to cool it. Then you open up the panels, and rake it out, and you spray it with water and rake it at the same time. So you end up with a big, big patch of biochar on the ground. [00:21:29] Craig Macmillan: Perfect. Then you take that to your composting spot and away you go. . [00:21:32] Kelpie Wilson: another piece about making biochar from vineyards, especially vineyard removals, is that a lot of times there's wire, trellis wire, in it. And you could have a big pile and you could build a kiln around the pile because you're not untangling that pile, right, with all the wire in it. And then at the end, uh, you know, you pick the wire out of the char. You can use a magnet. [00:21:52] Craig Macmillan: That's cool. What are some things that we should be concerned about not doing? If we are newbies to biochar production. [00:22:00] Kelpie Wilson: Yeah, that's a really good question too. So, you need to know a little bit about your biochar. If you have a lot of ash in it, it can be alkaline. So if you have an alkaline soil, and you have alkaline biochar, you need to think about how you're going to apply it and maybe, usually composting will take care of any pH issue. If you have an acidic soil, you might want to just add it directly. You know, take the most advantage you can get of that liming ability. You also don't want to add too much at one time, especially without composting it first, because it can, , lock up nutrients for a short time. Most likely you're not gonna have too much biochar for a, for a big field. Um, It's great to be able to do it a little bit every year. That's the best way to incorporate it. [00:22:47] Craig Macmillan: Oh, and that's another question. I've seen different strategies here. Some folks believe that it has to be incorporated into the soil. Other folks say, no, that's good, but you can go ahead and spread it at the surface and you'll still get some benefits. Is that true? [00:22:58] Kelpie Wilson: Well, it's going to depend a lot on what you're trying to grow. So the vineyard trials that I've seen using biochar, a lot of times they're putting it in at planting and they're putting it in deep in the root zone. That seems like a good idea to me. One thing I'll say is when I look at the literature, I read a lot of the biochar research literature. There's some really interesting new material out about replant disease. So if you're replanting in a vineyard, you know, in an old vineyard, new vines. The soil can harbor pathogens that the older vines were able to resist, but the new vines have a hard time with. And biochar has a lot of benefits for disease resistance, just because it promotes a lot of microbial diversity, so you don't get the dominance with some of the pathogenic fungi and other organisms. So, you know, adding it, deep You know, when you're doing the replanting, replacing a vineyard is probably the most beneficial way, to add biochar. But if you already have a vineyard and you're using cover cropping, for instance, it'll go really well with a legume cover crop like clover and you don't even need to compost it because clover and legumes fix their own nitrogen and And biochar is especially wonderful with legume crops because it promotes the nitrogen fixing bacteria. If I just had a couple bags of biochar and I wanted to use it right away, and I was, planting a cover crop, I'd just use it in the cover crop. I think vines are like any other plant, where they have roots that come up close to the surface, they can get benefit from surface applied biochar as well. [00:24:39] Craig Macmillan: So if I'm following this idea, so from a cover cropping standpoint, what am I going to do is broadcast it and then plant my cover crop. That'd be one way of building the health of the whole floor, which is a really good idea. What about banding? It's very popular to band compost right into the vine row. If I have compost that's got biochar in it, will I get those benefits as well? [00:24:59] Kelpie Wilson: I would totally think so. The other thing about biochar is that it holds water. So, you know, in, droughty areas that would be helpful to, [00:25:08] Craig Macmillan: If there was one thing, just one piece of advice that you had for folks, Who are interested in starting to produce biochar and use biochar. Let's talk about it one for production and one thing for use. What would that be? What would that two part advice be? [00:25:25] Kelpie Wilson: first of all, uh, get one of my ring of fire biochar kilns. It's a, you know, it's really economic. And second of all, buy my book, the biochar handbook, because I have all kinds of information in there about composting, you know, different ways to culture biochar, build soil. Well, you know, so sorry to be so nakedly promotional there, but [00:25:50] Craig Macmillan: Well, you know, you're directing, you're directing people towards resources, [00:25:53] Kelpie Wilson: right. [00:25:53] Craig Macmillan: Anything else? [00:25:54] Kelpie Wilson: Oh, well, I'll send you some other resources, too, that you don't have to buy the book. Check out the U. S. Biotar Initiative website. There's a Biotar Learning Center there and USBI has collected a lot of resources there. fact sheets, their seminars, webinars. There is a lot of biochar information out there. And I will say I've watched a few YouTube videos that are just. Make me cringe it is so easy to experiment with it yourself, which is great. It's really great that people experiment with it. And I think, feel free, you know, do your own experiments. , there's some not so great information out there that, you might want to just do your own work and look at the more authoritative sources like that the USBI before you take what a YouTuber says as, as gospel about biochar. So I guess my one advice really on both, topics of production and application is just jump in and try it. It's so easy. You know, make it, make a bonfire in your backyard or, any kind of little container. You could dig a little shallow pit in the ground and, just make some biochar, then you've got some. Now do some, greenhouse trials. You know, see how it interacts with your soil because every soil is different. And so, check the pH, add it to, you know, your soil, and, grow a seedling. it's very easy to do some experiments. I actually have, in my book, a whole procedure for how to do a, scientifically valid experiment. Uh, Pot trial in the greenhouse, so you can really, step by step, you can really look and see how it compares with other amendments, try it in your compost pile, use a compost thermometer, it's not straightforward how to use it in compost, because again, compost like soil, it's going to have a lot of different kinds of ingredients, biochar does really interesting things, in compost, so. Just try it. [00:27:46] Craig Macmillan: Just try it. Like that's great advice. Our guest today has been Kelpie Wilson. She's the owner of Wilson Biochar Associates Consulting and Manufacturing. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. This has been some really great practical, actionable information, which is what we like to bring our listeners. As Kelpie mentioned, we're going to have a lot of links to things and resources and whatnot on the show notes. So be sure to travel to that page. I'm finding that this is a growing topic of interest, but I'm finding that there's more and more folks that are trying it, and we're all very excited for what the potential might be. [00:28:17] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by San agro. WestBridge is now San aggro. When the opportunity came to expand their reach and improve their customer's bottom line, they took it. San Agros commitment to deliver science-based solutions for sustainable crop health and nutrition remains the same. They offer a full line of plant nutrients, bio pesticides, and specialty inputs. Visit San agro.com to learn more. Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Kelpie her new book, the bio char handbook, a practical guide to making and using bioactivated charcoal loads, more links to bio char plus sustainable Winegrowing podcast episodes. 56 conservation burning and bio char. 1 0 6, what? Barry charcoal and the vineyard. 1 67. Used bio char to combat climate change and two 15 bio char production on a commercial scale. If you'd liked the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend. Subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts on vineyard team.org/podcast. And you can reach us@podcastatvineyardteam.org. Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team. Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

[00:00:00] Customer sense of urgency around climate change is rising. In fact, 78% of global consumers feel that environmental sustainability is important. [00:00:10] Welcome to marketing tip Monday with sip certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable while our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry. These twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable wine growing. [00:00:29] Customers like the idea of being sustainable and want to live more sustainable lives. While, many brands and retailers today are making eco-friendly claims. Some chalk up to little more than greenwashing. A marketing ploy designed to make products seem more sustainable than they are. Because of this consumers can feel that they can't always trust green claims. [00:00:50] It is more important than ever for sustainable brands like you to share your sustainable story in a meaningful and authentic way. [00:00:58] In this week's marketing tip. We share a great example. With Niner wine estates, sustainable story on the value of energy efficiency. [00:01:06] Electricity use in the winery accounts for a large proportion of the end products, energy demand. From keeping buildings and tanks at proper temperatures to powering equipment and lighting energy use in the winery adds up quickly. Anticipating increasing energy demand and cost. Niner wine estates built its winery into a hillside. Because of this, the ground level on one side of the building is a couple of stories higher. Then the ground level on the other side. This wasn't a flaw in the design, rather, a strategy to allow for a gravity flow winemaking system. are brought into the facility at the top level, instead of being transferred by machines, the grapes move with gravity down the tiers of the building through each stage of the winemaking process. [00:01:51] Another other energy efficient benefit of the hillside is that the earth surrounding the building works as a natural insulator, reducing the need for a cooling system to keep the facility at optimal temperatures. is another element that Niner wine estates utilizes large windows in the production facility and tasting rooms allow sunlight to fill these buildings during the day. When they do need electricity. The grid is not their primary source. Since 2015, the majority of their tasting room restaurant. Wineries and Wells have been powered by the sun. There are two banks of high efficient solar panels on the property. One at the top of their winery building and the other on the ground next to their tasting room. [00:02:33] Additional solar panels can be found in the parking lot, but they aren't used to power business operations. [00:02:39] solar banks are on top of EVs charging stations, welcoming staff and guests to plug in while they enjoy their time at nine or wine estates. [00:02:47] Together. All of these components have a significant impact on Niner wine estates, energy efficiency. them to symbols of sustainability, achievement, sip certified and lead a certified level. Silver. Make sure you check out the show notes. For the link called stacking energy savings, sustainable story at Niner wine estates to see pictures of their energy efficient facility. [00:03:13] here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the sustainable story program. This simple, yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal and it just got better. With the upgraded online course, go to the show notes, click the link titled tell your sustainable story. To sign up and start writing yours today. [00:03:35] Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team. Tell Your Sustainable Story We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program. This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing yours today!       Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team. Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** 240: Stacking Energy Savings | Sustainable Story: Niner Wine Estates Apply for SIP Certified Wine Marketing Tips eNewsletter Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic What's your Sustainable Story? Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet  Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member

We regularly hear about eclectic tractors but have you tried an electric truck? Duff Bevill, Founder and Partner and Brooke Parsons, Viticulture Analyst at Bevill Vineyard Management were part of the Ford Pro Pilot Project. They tested the capacity of an electric van, truck towing capabilities, and battery life of electric vehicles during day to day farming operations. The pair discuss the benefits of tracking GPS and maintenance through Ford's Telematics and the things you need to consider when looking to add an electric truck to your fleet.   Resources:         120: Autonomous Drone Vineyard Spraying 219: Intelligent Sprayers to Improve Fungicide Applications and Save Money 225: California's Ban on Autonomous Tractors   Bevill Vineyard Management Farming of the Future: Ford Pro, Sonoma County Winegrowers Join Forces to Electrify Business of Farming Sustainable Farming in Sonoma County Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year - PODCAST24 Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:05] Beth Vukmanic: We regularly hear about electric tractors, but have you tried an electric truck? Welcome to sustainable wine growing with Vineyard Team. Where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, executive director. Since 1994, we have brought you the latest science-based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools. Through both infield and online education so that you can grow your business. Please raise a glass with us as we cheers to 30 years. [00:00:37] In today's podcast Craig Macmillan, critical resource manager at Niner wine estates with long time SIP Certified vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery. Speaks with Duff Bevill. Founder and partner. And Brooke Parsons, viticulture analyst at Bevill vineyard management. [00:00:55] They were part of the Ford probe pilot project, where they tested the capacity of an electric van. Truck towing capabilities and battery life of electric vehicles during day-to-day farming operations. The pair discussed the benefits of tracking GPS and maintenance through Ford telematics and the things you need to consider when looking to add an electric truck to your fleet. [00:01:17] . Because you listened to this podcast, you won't want to miss the premier wine growing event of the year, the Sustainable Ag Expo. Enjoy the perfect blend of in-person and online learning. Speak directly with national experts earn over 20 hours of continuing education. And explore sustainable ag. Vendors. It all takes place. [00:01:38] November 12th through 13th, 2024 at the Madonna Inn expo center in San Luis Obispo, California. As a listener to this podcast, take $50 off of your ticket. When you use code podcast 24 at checkout. Get yours today at sustainableagexpo.org. Now let's listen in. [00:01:56] Craig Macmillan: Our guests today are Duff Bevill and Brooke Parsons. Duff is owner of Bevill Vineyard Management in Sonoma County. And Brooke Parsons is Viticulture Analyst with Bevill Vineyard Management. And we're going to talk about the Ford Pro Pilot Project that they're involved in. Thanks for being on the podcast. [00:02:19] Duff Bevill: You bet, man. [00:02:19] We're happy to be here. [00:02:20] Craig Macmillan: So Duff, what exactly is this project? How'd you get involved in it? Give us a little history. [00:02:26] Duff Bevill: Yeah, back in I think it was September, October of 2021. Well, I'm involved with the Sonoma County growers organization and Carissa Cruz, our president and Carissa. [00:02:37] Got a name of somebody to call. And she made a cold call to a Ford motor company. And then I think one more phone call after that. And she got in touch with Ford pro told him what we were interested in doing. Thought whether it was a perfect fit because our sustainability program that we've you know, managed now for more than a decade, well over a decade. [00:02:54] And Ford sent someone from Detroit out here to meet with us over dinner and another representative out of Sacramento that was, I think, a lobbyist for Ford, I can't remember exactly. His role, but both of them came out here and she cold called a couple of us to come and have dinner with his middle of harvest and yeah, we hit it off and she went back to I guess, technically Dearborn and told them back there that we were legitimate and she thought that they should pursue something with us. [00:03:19] So that, that was in September, October, then in November around Thanksgiving. A team from Ford came to meet with us. They want to know size of our fleet of vehicles. They're just trying to get some, to find out how legitimate we might be. And they went back positive. And then the following January, so it'd be January of 2022 Ford came out full blown to Sonoma County, out to the Dutton Ranch. [00:03:43] And we had a big, giant press release. President Jim Farley came out from Ford, all on film, gave a talk and that sort of thing, and it was a big deal. So that really launched, it's really January of 2022. Roughly probably March, I think it was, of 2022, they didn't have the lightened pickup trucks available yet. [00:04:01] That was still, suffering from COVID, you know, and, and Production was down. So , they actually had some Ford vans, electric vans, which they just gave us a try and Brooke she was basically assigned that van and tried to figure out what to do with it. And so we, all collectively came up with an idea on how to use the vans, although you know, they're just not a fit for farming, but we made, we made it work out. [00:04:23] And then I think it was in June, we finally pick up the lightning. So June of 2022, we've got the lightnings. And then what we did was we gave Ford feedback. We met with engineers, either Zoom or in person on a pretty regular basis for the better part of a year. More than a year probably. [00:04:40] Just getting feedback from a farming point of view, you know, from us using vehicles in the field. And each one of the three companies used them differently and to gather information. I personally wanted to drive it so I could see. How it would work if I want to buy more, would actually work for me . [00:04:56] I know one of the other companies used to have their shop mechanics use it and another company had one of their field foreman use it. So all of us really tried something different with it and for different reasons. But anyways, that's how it worked out. And we just fed information back and forth, making recommendations, you know, see if there's any flaws that Came up and we'd report back immediately to them. [00:05:14] We saw something that Could be improved or or ask why it was the way it was that sort of thing [00:05:20] Craig Macmillan: And we're talking about a completely electric vehicle that's designed for farm use Is that right? [00:05:25] Duff Bevill: The concept of ford pro so I got my ford hat on right now the concept of ford pro It's a division that was created to really focus on business people with fleets so farming was a connection I don't think they thought of until we reached out to them. [00:05:42] I think on paper, originally they were looking at the local contractor. You know, the guy was he drove it personally, he was the contractor, or he had a couple carpenters working for him. I think that was probably it initially. Whether they were thinking of farming at all until we reached out to them. [00:05:58] I don't know. They almost certainly weren't thinking of wine grape growing on the west coast. I think that the whole name Ford Pro, it was really targeted to professional business people who would normally have a pickup truck and how they could adapt using electric vehicle. [00:06:15] Craig Macmillan: I wasn't familiar with this until this came up for this episode. Is this product line is, is that commercially available at the time that you approached them? Is it available now? Is it still in kind of a testing state? [00:06:26] Duff Bevill: They weren't available yet, but they were marketing in the summer of for sure the fall, but certainly the summer of 2021. [00:06:33] I saw ads on TV or Something that would pop up on a website. If you're on Googling something else on a Ford pro for a lightning come up for 10 seconds and disappeared on it. It was a little bit of a tease at that point. But I know the one I got or the one that we have now was number one Oh nine. [00:06:48] Craig Macmillan: Okay. [00:06:49] Duff Bevill: I used to kid them asking, tell them I wanted number one, but they wouldn't give it to me. But I got number one oh nine and, they were just beginning to market it you know, shortly after Covid hit. And so they continued to in, in 2021, you know, we were basically all shut down in 2020. [00:07:05] And 2021 was still pretty disastrous, but they were but all their production facilities were shut down. I mean, they came to a halt just like everybody else. So I think they anticipated getting out there, marketing earlier, making it available earlier. But I think the biggest stumbling block was for, I think a lot of manufacturers, they just didn't have the chips from the big chip manufacturer in Hong Kong. [00:07:25] And that was what it boiled down to. I think it was true for all the car companies. Yeah. [00:07:30] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. I remember that. [00:07:31] Duff Bevill: That was, you had to get that out there. And so they had a marketing plan. They created a division. They had a president of the division identified. The marketing team was in place. [00:07:38] All the engineers were shifted to the Ford pro team. You know, we got to meet almost all those people, I could, make a phone call to one of the head engineers anytime I wanted to, or send them a text or an email. [00:07:49] Craig Macmillan: Wow. [00:07:50] Duff Bevill: It was a real interesting experience. [00:07:53] Craig Macmillan: And you said you got a van first, is that right? [00:07:56] Duff Bevill: Yeah, Brooke drove it, yeah. [00:07:57] Craig Macmillan: That got handed over to you, Brooke. What was that like? Did you have experience with electric vehicles prior to that? Did you have experience with vans prior to that? Were you, Pickup truck person. [00:08:05] Brooke Parsons: Good questions. Yes. I had never driven a van much prior, especially for viticultural tasks. Before using the e transit, I used a pickup with a trailer that I would load a four wheeler onto the trailer and the e transit took the place of the trailer and the pickup. So I loaded With a ramp. The four wheeler inside. [00:08:31] Craig Macmillan: Oh, it was a pretty good sized vehicle then. [00:08:33] Duff Bevill: Yeah. A half ton chassis. It was basically F-150 chassis, but the van, you know? [00:08:38] Craig Macmillan: Oh like a panel van. [00:08:40] Duff Bevill: Exactly. [00:08:41] Craig Macmillan: Oh, okay. I was thinking like in a condo van. [00:08:44] This is more like a panel van. You got room to put stuff in. That makes sense. More like a, more like a service truck. [00:08:48] Brooke Parsons: Like a service truck. So I'd open the back of it to load the four wheeler, but I could also open the side to access my tools and whatnot. It was nice. [00:08:59] Duff Bevill: They actually outfitted it with shelving. Which would have been perfect if you were like a plumber or an electrician. But with the shelving it made the bay too narrow that we couldn't even fit the four wheeler and ATVs, so we had to take the shelving out so we could use it for that purpose. [00:09:14] You know, we just substitute trailer and a pickup truck for the van. But how long did you drive that van? [00:09:20] Brooke Parsons: I drove it for one full season, so May or June through the end of harvest. [00:09:25] Craig Macmillan: How did you find that? Cause you see that all the time. You see the truck with the trailer, with the ATV in the back. [00:09:30] How did you find that moving up to a van? Did you find it easier to drive? More difficult? Were you not as confident [00:09:34] Brooke Parsons: I loved it because I didn't have to worry about a trailer and I didn't have to unload it each night to put it in the barn. So I just closed it all up and it was safe inside the van. [00:09:46] If I went anywhere. I felt safe to leave the four wheeler locked inside and it wouldn't be tampered with. It was simple enough to bring back to the shop and charge every day and be ready to go the next morning. [00:10:01] Craig Macmillan: That was gonna be my next question, Brooke. So when you first started with this, did you have any concerns about range? [00:10:05] Duff Bevill: All of us do. [00:10:07] Brooke Parsons: Yeah, that was the number one concern was range. For our operation, we farm all in Sonoma County and in a given day, I wasn't driving more than say a hundred miles in the van and it did make a difference in the range, whether or not I had weight in the vehicle or not, or if I use the heat or not. [00:10:32] I didn't have as much range in the van as the Ford Lightning. And I had to be careful there were a couple of scary moments that I thought I'd have to call Somebody to come get me, but I never ultimately ran out of power [00:10:48] Craig Macmillan: So with a little practice and a little experience, you knew [00:10:51] Duff Bevill: If you were to buy a a ford lightning, I don't know about the other electric vehicles in the ford product line But for sure the lightning you would have a choice of, I think, two different battery packs. [00:11:02] One they refer to, I believe it's just standard. And then they had a second option or an option that would be the extended battery. My understanding at the time, the Ford, pro version of the Ford Lightning came with a standard battery. But when they heard I was, you know, initially I was getting over 300 miles in a charge, I asked them about that and they said let us get back to you. [00:11:22] Well, a week later they got back and said, oh yeah, that's right, we set yours up, or the three, but for sure mine, the one we still have, with the big battery. They sort of custom built that truck. These three are one offs in that first early run of the heavier battery pack, which to me and I suggested this to him, if the marketing is intended to be to the professional business owner driving a pickup truck, I think Ford pro should just be, you have a standard big battery in it for those reasons. [00:11:50] They may do that. I have no idea. You're got a professional driver. He's in there going from. The lumber yard to the job site down to the Supply depot for something else. I would just think that's just based on our habits in the farming industry. [00:12:03] You're shuffling around and it seems to me that'd be a good option, but anyways, It worked out great for me. [00:12:08] Craig Macmillan: So you've been driving the lightning now for a little while, right? [00:12:11] Duff Bevill: I drove it for the first two I guess nine months just so I could assess How I might want to buy more of them for , our operation here. [00:12:19] We buy a couple of pickup trucks every year. I gave , the, pickup to Brooke. So she now drives the pickup cause we turned the van back in. [00:12:25] Craig Macmillan: I figured that might get kicked back to you so Brooke now you've driven the van now you're driving the truck How do you feel about the truck? [00:12:31] Brooke Parsons: It handles better than any vehicle. I've ever driven. I love to drive it. I'm very proud of it and I Like it a lot zero complaints [00:12:41] Craig Macmillan: Even though you have to have a trailer again [00:12:42] Brooke Parsons: Even though I have to have a trailer again, that's okay. [00:12:45] Duff Bevill: It was remarkable how it seemed like it was luxurious riding because the electric horsepower, . That thing is so powerful. One of the things, again, my understanding of the engineers, they redesigned the chassis on it. [00:12:57] So Ford that F one 50 has four wheel, all four corners, independent suspension. Soon as we got to, we put it up on the rack to take a look at the, Technology underneath it. Look at the batteries, you know, you're not touching anything, you're just looking at everything. [00:13:10] And they designed this beautiful cast aluminum suspension for the back end of that truck. That you'd find in a, I don't know, luxurious European automobile, I think. But it's built heavy to handle all that, torque. You know, oh, it's like, I don't know, 800, horsepower when you push the special button on the dashboard, you know, and it's pretty stunning the performance and that's all torque. [00:13:31] That's twisting power. And so the engineers had to design into that thing, something capable of handling that much torque is beautiful. But the point is a four wheel independent suspension just rides beautifully cars heavier. So about a thousand pounds heavier, I think because of the batteries. So the comments, the extra weight. [00:13:47] And a very sophisticated suspension. It's just like a luxury sedan. And you're driving pretty nice. [00:13:52] Craig Macmillan: And so Brooke, you've been driving this truck now, one of the things that has come up around electric vehicles has been the question of horsepower end of torque. [00:13:59] How do you feel this truck performs compared to like, let's say a diesel dually, [00:14:03] Brooke Parsons: It accelerates very quickly, so getting onto the freeway is no problem when it's busy. And the other biggest factor that I notice is braking. You hardly have to brake and it takes a little bit of time to get used to because when you take your foot off of the accelerator, it naturally stops because the engine isn't going. [00:14:29] And you hardly have to use your brakes, which is very nice. [00:14:33] Duff Bevill: When I first got it, my wife had a Prius many, many years ago, and she pretty much drove it right off the lot. The way it was set up from the dealer. Well, I discovered that you could switch to regeneration on electric. So when you did let off the throttle, it would break by regenerating electric motors, regenerate electricity, put it back in the battery. [00:14:52] Well, that's the first thing I did on this lightning. Find that setting I think in the nine months that I drove it I told the guys at Ford I said, I'll bet you I didn't touch the brakes ten times in those nine months [00:15:03] Brooke Parsons: but to answer your question I've only pulled light things behind it and So I haven't really put it to the test in that way. [00:15:13] Craig Macmillan: I was doing a little research on this and I understand that there's like a data collection and management component to this that's attractive. [00:15:19] What can you tell me about that? Have you used that feature? It can tell you about your fleet, I guess? [00:15:24] Duff Bevill: Aside from electric vehicles Ford was really interested in us, Using and learning to use, and hearing back from us, their telematics. That's what they call it, Ford Telematics. [00:15:37] And I think it was initially launched with the Ford Pro division, where you sign up every vehicle in your fleet. We've got like 20 Ford pickup trucks, something like that. If you go back all the way, I want to say like to 2014. [00:15:49] Prior to that, I'm not sure, but for sure, like 2014, the electronics in those vehicles have the capability of just hooking up to the telematic system. The Ford is promoting, and if you get it into your fleet and get your, your vehicles in entered in your fleet, you can monitor them. Of course, like GPS, that's what everybody's doing nowadays, but much more than that, your shop manager could know, have a better use of knowing when it's time for an oil change, you know, we just do it. [00:16:14] We track that kind of stuff, hard copy paper, put a sticker on the dashboard and the drivers relay to us when the mileage number comes up, they notify the shop manager and we schedule for a service. Typically the oil filter change and then in general inspection we inspect the brakes and all that kind of stuff. [00:16:31] With the telematics they have the potential setting up where you could punch in a timeline that you wanted either by the calendar. Like every 12 months on the vehicles that we don't run very much. We do a major inspection every 12 months. And then the ones that actually have the mileage being for somewhere between five and 7, 000 miles, something like that. [00:16:50] Depends on the vehicle. Depends on the tractor or it's a pickup truck or a full size class eight diesel truck. And so all that stuff is available. And one of the pluses and this happened to us. It was a perfect, we've used this as an example. Typically in modern vehicles, the components that fail first are the sensors that measure your NOX exhaust pipes. [00:17:11] Those are the ones that are going bad. Probably because of the heat cycle they go through because of their exhaust pipes, right? So about anywhere between 40, 000 and 60, 000 miles, those are the devices that fail. So one of our foremen called the shop, our shop manager, and said check engine light came on. [00:17:27] I guess he got the code through telematics, identified it as an oxygen sensor, ordered the part. The truck never came back to the shop. It's still out on the job site. We're supposed to be with the crew. He gets the parts ordered. The delivery guys bring the part to the shop that day. And it's interesting how it works is that is the analysis is it is 90 percent likely it's your oxygen sensor. They come up and then when the guy back that night, they bring it right into the shop and change that sensor. At the end of the day, confirmed that that was the part that needed to be replaced. [00:18:00] The next day was back on the job site, all repaired. The only other way around that would have been. Bring it back to the shop. Get your, your analysis device on it, you know, on the onboard computer or mechanic drives out to the job site, does the same thing at the job site. [00:18:16] And then it comes back or it comes out, orders the parts on a telephone or something like that. So it's saves time. There's no doubt about it. And there's a lot more to, manage a lot of the of systems we have already in place Ford doing the same thing with their telematics. [00:18:28] So some of the things Didn't have any added value because we already have that kind of technology, but they were expanding a lot of that technology for fleet management. So that's a real plus. And they were constantly tweaking that in making improvements on the usability of it and that sort of thing. [00:18:44] So that was a big deal. That was a big one. [00:18:47] Craig Macmillan: The fleet management aspect of having an electric vehicle like this with this kind of a technology going into the future could be huge for a farm, could be huge for a management company like yourself that has properties all over the place. That kind of remote diagnostic is really amazing. [00:18:59] The idea of like, Hey, the light's on. Okay, I'll fix it tonight. No problem. [00:19:03] Duff Bevill: Well, the other big plus is when we put that lightning up on the rack, just to take a look at it, you know, we're just kind of noodling through the, , there's no oil to change in an engine. We found one plug access to a transmission on it. [00:19:18] But even the owner's manual says don't touch any of that kind of stuff. You know, they can be serviced, but there's no schedule for servicing. The disc brakes, I don't think you'd ever If you use the vehicle to its maximum value, I don't think you'd ever put brakes in it. There's no transmission transitions made up of hundreds and hundreds of parts. It's not electric motors or a simple, simple mechanical device and the internal combustion engine has hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of parts that aren't there. So it has the potential of being over the ownership timeline of it. [00:19:52] A lot less cost per mile. Even when you, you calculate in your Cost of electricity charge, but we have here and we've got solar panels here too. We already had installed From a number of years ago So we've got sort of that added advantage whether the electric vehicle made a little bit even more sense because we're already kind of using discounted Power [00:20:11] Craig Macmillan: that was going to be my next question. i'm assuming your solar is connected to the grid So it's an offset so you're not islanded, but you still have the, you're generating power on your own. [00:20:20] So you've got onsite power generation to power your fleet to a degree. That's brilliant. Yeah, that's fantastic. I remember years ago people were complaining about diesel engines and friends of mine were like, well, if you build us a solar truck, I'll freaking drive it. I got no problem with that. [00:20:33] Well, here we are. What do you know? It's 30 years later, we have solar trucks, in effect. There has to have been some obstacles to adopting this. Were there some roadblocks or some things you had to learn along the way before you really felt like you were totally comfortable? [00:20:46] Duff Bevill: Well, like I said, I was familiar with a hybrid. [00:20:49] I still drive a hybrid. I drive a hybrid Ford pickup truck now. We had to get a charging station installed. Here at the office and then, you know, there's a decision. Do I do it at home or do the office? I wanted to hear at the office because that's where the fleet is parked and I had to think through, you know, get the one installed and how many more can I have and how many trucks will it eventually service without a major infrastructure redesign. [00:21:11] So we've got that one put in and I, in the process, I had the electrician who was recommended to us. I had him install extra conduits underground. That are dummy right now. I assume we'll, we'll, extend for more pickup trucks. [00:21:25] That was really the big obstacle. And then that's why I drove it because I want to know firsthand exactly what I was up against. I accomplished what I wanted. I want to learn as much as I could about it. Being there, having access to the Ford people, especially the engineers. Was on the fast track of having a better understanding. [00:21:40] I got to talk to the guys who actually, one guy designed the grill, the other guy designed the dashboard. I mean, I was talking to those, [00:21:45] Craig Macmillan: you had access. Yeah. That's, that's pretty amazing. Brooke, what was your learning curve? Like you talked about a couple of things, but were there obstacles that you felt you kind of ran across that you had to figure out, or that could be improvements [00:21:56] Brooke Parsons: just forming the habit of charging. [00:21:57] One time I forgot and. I was responsible for getting people someplace in the morning and it made me nervous. But you do that once or twice and you don't forget. So that was the real only obstacle. When traveling a longer distance, I did have to learn how to find charging stations that work well, are compatible with the lightning. [00:22:25] And Ford is making advances in that area, now partnered with Tesla to use their system. And so that will only improve. But really it's around learning how to use the logistics of electric charging. [00:22:44] Craig Macmillan: Right. And that's true for electric charging. For all of that. And you're right. I think a little bit of practice. [00:22:49] Most of the folks that I know with electric vehicles, they're scared at first, and then they kind of figure it out. Now that you've had a chance to work with this, I think I already know the answer to this question. I mean, there's a question for both of you. When you were looking to your crystal ball, how do you see this technology being applied in the future? [00:23:03] Duff Bevill: Think there's a place for it. I'm not so sure that one type of energy source is going to be the, solution for everything. I think practically, I think it's going to be some kind of a combination of energy sources and I don't discount nuclear. [00:23:14] There's probably a place for everything, certainly in a transition period that that'll work best for all. Electrician put in the the charging station for us. He said, , if everybody's gonna go electric, the package must be solar panels, um, battery storage, either a large battery storage in a community setting, you know, like in a neighborhood or a small city size. [00:23:37] Or you'll have battery storage areas that is appropriate, like maybe at our farm shop. Because we're commercial, we would be a candidate for battery storage, at least for our operation. So you'd have a solution for, you know, we're back to Sonoma County weather conditions again for the first time in quite a few years. [00:23:55] I mean, it's overcast and rainy a lot of days out of the year. If you have solar panels, they're just not going to be working as efficiently and you still have to go to work every day and get your people to work. If you are relying. Let's say exclusively on electric, you've got to have something other than solar panel on the roof [00:24:09] so windmill, solar panels, battery storage, there's some combination of multiple technologies. I just think that's sort of realistic of what it is. Do you want 95 percent of it to be coal? No, none of us do, you know, cause we all know the story there, but is, is there a place for coal for 10 percent of it? [00:24:25] 15 percent of it. Don't know. I have no idea. It's good. I mean, we liked it. It's you know, just, we're not relying on it entirely right now, but we'll phase into it as time goes on. [00:24:33] Craig Macmillan: Well, that was going to be, and and maybe Brookie also can kind of speak to this. I mean, is there a time when there isn't going to be a diesel truck on the farm? [00:24:40] Duff Bevill: We're more concerned about diesel tractors. You know, the evolution went from, steam, you know, the early 1900s. The steam to, and then, you know, both in automobiles and, and on, on the farm, the competition was steam or gasoline because diesel wasn't invented yet. [00:24:58] diesel engine wasn't invented until the 1920s. So turn of the century, 19th and 20th century, it was a competition between steam and gasoline, gasoline won. So gasoline surge forward all the way into the 1930s and with a few exceptions and in the 1940s, but by the 1950s. There was a clear transition that diesel was much, much more efficient, you know, pound for pound and horsepower for horsepower. [00:25:24] I can't even think of where you could buy a gasoline tractor once you got in the 1970s. I'm sure you could still, but it represented a really small percentage. And by the 80s and 90s, it's all diesel.down to almost lawnmower size you can get it John Deere ride along more, you probably have a choice between gasoline and and diesel power to mow the golf course, [00:25:42] that's actually transitioning to electric now too, you know, those, those small ones will plug it in and then mow for two hours, we're not even in the transition part of that story yet. [00:25:52] There's a couple, manufacturers that have electric tractors the, inconvenience of them is really insurmountable right now, but changing batteries at lunchtime in your barn and that kind of stuff, tough. That's, tough technology. [00:26:05] Craig Macmillan: It's still new. Yeah, this is still new. We're still finding our way there. I've talked to people about that topic quite a bit. It'll get better. Yeah, we'll see where it goes. Hey, Brooke, what is one thing that you'd recommend to listeners if they're thinking about adopting electric vehicles for the farm? [00:26:20] Brooke Parsons: Would say be open to trying new things. It expands your mind and. It allows opportunity that would not be there otherwise. And be okay with mistakes. That's how we learn. [00:26:37] Craig Macmillan: That's great advice. I think that's really, really good. Where can people find out more about you at Beville Vineyard Management? [00:26:43] Duff Bevill: Look at our website BevillVineyard.Com Get you right to the, right to the website. [00:26:47] Craig Macmillan: Well, I want, to both for being here. Thanks, Duff, and thanks, Brooke, for being here. [00:26:51] Duff Bevill: Well, thank you for reaching out to us. [00:26:53] Brooke Parsons: You're welcome. Thank you. [00:26:55] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by Valent. Bio-sciences a leader in biostimulants constantly delivering, cutting edge innovation to maximize their customers yields and ROI. [00:27:14] Their are 40 plus products span the three bio stimulant brands providing solutions for every acre. Make sure you check out the show notes. For links to Bevill vineyard management. Articles on the Ford Pro Pilot project and sustainable Winegrowing podcast episodes. 120 autonomous drone vineyard spring. 219 intelligent sprayers to improve fungicide applications and save money. And 225 California's ban on autonomous tractors. [00:27:44] If you liked the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend subscribing and leaving us a review. That helps us reach more listeners. Like you, you can find all of the podcasts@vineyardteam.org / podcast, and you can reach us at podcast@vineyardteam.org. [00:28:00] Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team. Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

[00:00:00] By acting environmentally and socially responsible today, we get future generations, a healthy place to call home. The actions that you as an individual take, have an impact. [00:00:11] Welcome to marketing tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry. These twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable wine growing. [00:00:29] So you can show your customers that you share their values. [00:00:33] The summer months, bring more staff and guests into tasting rooms across the country. Invite your whole team to join in your brand sustainability efforts. When you practice these five sustainable tasting room habits. Tip one is to conserve. Simple actions like completely shutting off water faucets after use and notifying management of leaks help conserve this limited resource. Turning lights and appliances off when not in use reduces electricity. Consumption. [00:01:02] Although the commercial end use energy sector uses the smallest amount of energy of the four sectors, which include transportation, industrial, residential, and commercial. The majority of the energy used comes from fossil fuels, small efforts in the workplace, reduce reliance on non-renewable energy. Tip two is to recycle responsibly. [00:01:24] We know the importance of recycling, but when heading to the bin with recyclables in hand, it's easy to forget the nuances. Some items can be recycled together, like cardboard paper and some plastics and metal. Glass is, usually recycled separately. And sometimes that's separated by color. It may be tempting to line up a recycle bin with a plastic bag. But it can actually be detrimental to your good efforts. [00:01:48] Plastic bags can clog recycling machinery. Contaminate other recyclable materials and potentially lead to recyclable material ending up at the landfill. Instead, keep those items loose or use a paper or reusable bag to line the can. Your wine bottle corks can also be recycled and turned into many useful items. [00:02:08] Start a collection container and send it off to be repurposed. [00:02:12] Re cork has a map of drop off locations that makes it easy to find a cork recycling partner near you. Consider teaming up with neighboring tasting rooms to send your corks together. Tip three is to reduce and reuse. Upgrade to glass and metal dishes in the break room to cut down. On single use plastics, Sanitize and reuse water bottles for serving water. These small changes can drastically reduce your weekly waste. Tip four is to source locally. Check out local artists and small businesses for crafts, snacks, and knickknacks to offer for sale in your tasting room. This is a great way to introduce your guests to local talent and support your community. And tip five is to bike or carpool to work. [00:02:58] There are several alternative transportation options available today For eco-conscious commuters. Trips can be shared by carpooling or using public transportation to reduce the number of cars on the road. Riding a bike e-bike skateboard or one wheel has The added bonus of getting your blood pumping. [00:03:17] We are here to help you tell. [00:03:19] Your customers, how your brand protects natural and human resources with the sustainable story program. This simple, yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal message. And it just got better with the new online course. Go to the notes. Click on the link titled to tell your sustainable story, to sign up and start writing yours today. Until next time, this is sustainable. [00:03:42] Winegrowing with the vineyard team. Tell Your Sustainable Story We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program. This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing yours today!       Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team. Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Apply for SIP Certified Wine Marketing Tips eNewsletter Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic What's your Sustainable Story? Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Farmers and ranchers have some of the highest suicide rates of all United States occupations. Misty Oebel, Health and Farm Stress Extension Educator at Michigan State University works with a team to help farmworkers manage depression and anxiety. Their educational initiatives, outreach, and teletherapy give farmworkers who often live in remote areas access to help without a commute or social stigma. Misty highlights the importance of community support, recognizing signs of stress, and maintaining a resilient mindset through learned optimism. She reminds listeners that the farmer is the most important asset on the farm. Resources:         988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline (USA) Agriservice professionals play important role in suicide prevention How to cultivate a productive mindset Michigan State University Extension – Managing Farm Stress Resilient Minds: Managing Stress on the Farm Youth farm stress Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript Before we jump in, please note that this episode contains discussion on suicide. If you prefer to skip this one, there are nearly 250 other episodes to choose from. If you need resources or support. Call or text the suicide and crisis lifeline at 9 8, 8 for 24 hour free counseling services in the United States. [00:00:26] Beth Vukmanic: Of all occupations in the United States, farmers and ranchers have some of the highest suicide rates. Welcome to sustainable winegrowing with vineyard team. Where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, executive director. Since 1994, we have brought you the latest science-based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both infield and online education so that you can grow your business. Please raise a glass with us as we cheers to 30 years. In today's podcast Craig Macmillan, critical resource manager at Niner wine estates with a long time sip certified vineyard and the first ever sip certified winery. Speaks with Misty Oebel. Health and farm stress extension educator at Michigan state university. Misty works with a team to help farm workers manage depression and anxiety. Their educational initiatives, outreach and teletherapy, give farm workers who often live in remote areas. Access to help without a commute or social stigma. Misty highlights the importance of community support, recognizing signs of stress and maintaining a resilient mindset through learned optimism. She reminds listeners that the farmer is the most important asset on the farm. Before we get into the interview, I wanted to share a message from Lupita, a vineyard team. Juan Nevarez is Memorial scholar. She says my parents left Mexico to give my siblings and me a better future. I want to make them proud by finishing school and pursuing my dream of becoming a pediatrician and the Salinas valley so that I can give back to my community. We know that higher education is important to many students, but paying for college could be challenging. This unique program provides financial and support services to the children of California's vineyard and winery workers. So they can earn a higher degree. You can help a student like Lupita, make their dreams come true by making a gift. By visiting vineyard team.org/scholarship. Or look for the link in our show notes. Now let's listen in. [00:02:35] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Misty Oebel. She is a health and farm stress extension educator with Michigan state university extension. Thanks for being on the podcast. [00:02:44] Misty Oebel: Well, so much for having me. [00:02:46] Craig Macmillan: And today we're going to talk about a concept called farm stress. When I first heard the term farm stress, I was thinking of farms that were stressed, you know, land that had been overworked or was in decline and that kind of thing, cause that's a lot of the stuff that I talk about and study, but that's not what we're talking about in this context. What does farm stress mean in your world? [00:03:05] Misty Oebel: So in my world, I'm focused on behavioral health. I look at providing education about stress, particularly chronic stress and its impact on the agricultural community. So I think it might be more accurate if we went by the term of like farmer stress or stress on the farm, but that's not the way it's titled. So farm stress is what we go by. [00:03:25] Craig Macmillan: One of the things that brought your project to our attention, and it's really extensive. MSU Extension is doing a lot of work in this area. It's really impressive, and we'll hear some more about that. Suicide rates are one of the highest in the occupations of farming and ranching of any occupations in the United States, actually. Which a lot of people might be surprised to find out. And related to that, there's also very high incidence of Depression and or at least meeting the criteria for depression and for generalized anxiety disorder. And, you know, by these, I want to make sure that we're clear that, you know, we're not talking about simply being like, Oh, I'm sad. Oh, I'm depressed, but actually things that impact your ability to function, your actual mental illness conditions [00:04:05] Misty Oebel: Right. That's exactly right. When we're looking at these numbers a lot of we're studying it through self report. So it's asking questions. It's not asking a question like, do you feel depressed? It's asking a question like, are you having problems with your appetite? How is your sleep changed? How are your relationships with other people? Are you experiencing irritability on a regular basis? Those are the kinds of questions that they ask. And then those are the criteria that they're looking at when they're saying agricultural workers are you know, we're finding that about 60 percent of the people that are participating in these studies are meeting the criteria for. depression, about 55 percent for generalized anxiety disorders. So this is significant because that does impact your ability to function. [00:04:50] Craig Macmillan: And are also risk factor for things like suicide and substance abuse. [00:04:54] Misty Oebel: And that's exactly right. We see much higher rates of suicide rates amongst agricultural workers than other occupations. We do see, really high substance use rates as well. Alcoholism we see is reported with heavy use for alcohol amongst farmers is about 38 to 50 percent of farmers in America, which is pretty significant. The other issue we see is farming or agricultural workers also have the highest rate of stress related death. due to disease. So that's a very major concern for us. [00:05:25] Craig Macmillan: It's a major public health health issue. Issue around this. When you said you were , asking these questions, getting this, this data, how is this data being collected? How do we even find out, this is an issue? [00:05:36] Misty Oebel: There's a preliminary study that's coming out of Illinois State University. It's being done by Rudolfi and Berg. They're the ones that are leading a lot of the information on this. And so there's the study that I'm going to quote most because those the numbers that are most they're the most relevant to me because I do work in the Midwest. And so what we're looking at is we're just when we start to see those statistics like the high suicide rates, the high rates of death by stress related disease we start to see the amount of issues we're having with alcohol and opioids and even we're seeing some stimulant use. increase at this point. Those are all things that start to trigger us to do a lot of research and try and figure out what this impact is and why it's happening. [00:06:13] Craig Macmillan: And I'm guessing that is where the MSU extension managing farms for stress program came from. [00:06:18] Misty Oebel: Yes, there was a significant need. The USDA was asking for people to participate in and start providing education and support for farmers because we were noticing that there were some pretty significant issues within the community. [00:06:32] Craig Macmillan: This is one of those things that's true for a lot of areas of public health. How do you. Get to the populations that need the help because people don't always come forward looking for help or there the demand there? People are having issues and they're coming looking for help. What's the what's the the interface? between the farm stress program and the target population [00:06:56] Misty Oebel: Sure. So one of the things that we're doing through our program, we spend as much time as possible in rooms with growers. Speaking at a lot of conferences, speaking at a lot of meetings. We spend as much time as possible, putting our faces out there and trying to build that rapport. And I have yet to speak in front of a group of people on a farm stress and not have people waiting in the wings afterwards to talk to me about that. So there is some face to face connection there. Sure. We also have people who hear about us through like news or hear a podcast or read an article and then they go looking for our website and then they connect with staff that way where they're reaching out to us and saying, I might need a little bit more help. Can you help me with this? So that's pretty common. We also receive phone calls and emails from people all the time who say, Hey, my veterinarian said I should reach out to you or my accountant or, you know, my Miller, it's these people who they have professional established relationships with who are saying there's something that's not right. right? There's something going on here and you need to talk to somebody about it. And so we connect with people that way. But I would say quite honestly, the number one way that we are connecting with people is we get an email or a phone call from someone who loves a farmer. So it's a parent or a spouse or a sibling who says, you know, my, sibling, he has this farm, he's been working on it for a long time. He's really, really depressed and he's not doing anything about it. And we're getting really, really worried about him. So there's a lot of different ways that we come in contact with these farmers. I would say probably the number one way is because somebody noticed something was going on and then they connected them with the appropriate resources at that point. [00:08:32] Craig Macmillan: And that's an important point the role of community and family and our social networks The old see something say something Sometimes it can be hard to do when it's a loved one and probably the most important to do when it's a loved one. [00:08:42] Misty Oebel: I agree with that. Just this year alone, I've talked with six different families as they're surviving the loss of a loved one to suicide. And one of the things that keeps coming up is I noticed something was going on, but I didn't want them to be mad at me. I didn't want them to be upset. I didn't want to hurt their feelings. And it's one of those things that I think we would all rather have somebody be upset with us than to lose that person. And so that's really important. If you see something, say something, notice something, refer them to somebody. It's also really important to start learning about how we can communicate. You know, how to ask open ended questions, how to ask difficult questions and how to practice those active listening skills so that when somebody is answering the questions, you're hearing what they're saying and you're not just waiting for that opportunity to start talking again. Those are all really important. There's trainings that we can offer through MSU Extension. There's an open course that's available on our website. It's called Rural Resilience. It's open to the community and it's free and it's online. So it's, it's really useful, but it's literally trained to teach you how to recognize signs of stress in yourself and how to manage that stress, but then how to recognize signs of stress in other people and then how to communicate with them and have positive communication that could be helpful. [00:09:52] Craig Macmillan: So you mentioned this website. We just talked about how you kind of get in contact with the population. What are some of the other methods that you folks are employing around this to get people help? What is the kind of help that you can provide? [00:10:03] Misty Oebel: Some things that I think are really useful, again, that referral process is really important to us. So if you know about us and then you see somebody that you care about is struggling, please let us know. Through MSU Extension, we offer a lot of other programs that aren't necessarily related to farm stress. So it's not unusual for us to talk to like a field crops educator or a fruit crop educator, and they're coming to us and they're saying, Hey, I'm working with this farmer. And we're seeing these behaviors and I'm talking to them and I'm trying to get them to talk to you. That's pretty common as well. So those are all resources we have available. We offer through the website, we offer a lot of things. And I always tell people if you're interested in the Farm Stress and you want to know more about our program, if you go to our website, and it's usually pretty easy if you type in like MSU Farm Stress. we're usually the first result. We come up pretty quick. And that website has everything. It has articles we've written. It has educational materials. It has those programs like the training materials available as well, that online training. And then it also has a form that you can fill out for our teletherapy program, which is also really beneficial. [00:11:04] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, so I was just gonna ask about that. So you are able to put people or connect people to talk therapy services either tell therapy or face to face. [00:11:12] Misty Oebel: Yeah, it's actually, it's one of the programs we're really proud of. We have this opportunity to provide it to people who are connected to the agricultural community. And it helps because there's a lot of barriers within the farming community to getting, you know, mental health services. You know, most farming is done in rural communities. So we know rural communities have less access to medical services, let alone behavioral health services. We know that then if somebody is interested in going to like counseling, it's going to take them longer to travel to a therapist. And then they're going to sit there and they're going to come back. There's also some stigmas attached still to like mental health issues within rural communities. So you know, when you talk to a farmer and they say, you know, I just don't want them to see my truck sitting in that parking lot. I'm just really concerned about that. I don't want people to think something's going on. And so teletherapy is a resource then that it removes those barriers for them. You can do it from the comfort of your own home on a laptop or a smartphone. They use cameras, so you're still able to see the person. You're able to have a conversation and talk with them. It's completely confidential. And then it's a really great resource then because then It removes the barriers and makes it accessible to everybody. The other piece of that is sometimes one of the barriers is cost. That can be really prohibitive for people, especially farmers who are independently, you know, they work for themselves, so they're not always insured, you know, so this can be a problem. And so MSU extension has the availability. We actually provide for and cover the costs for any agriculture workers within the state of Michigan. At this point, our funding is limited, but we're able to then cover the cost of that. So there's no cost to the farmer either. [00:12:44] Craig Macmillan: How many folks are you getting in contact with? How many folks are taking advantage of this? [00:12:48] Misty Oebel: At the moment, I don't have the numbers. That would be something my program lead would have. I just refer people. It is something that we refer people on a pretty regular basis, probably one to two a week we make a referral or we talk to somebody about sometimes more. So I think that that's a pretty good estimate that we are definitely reaching people this way. [00:13:06] Craig Macmillan: And that actually just reminded me of something else. So is this referring folks to behavioral health professionals that are outside of the MSU system. Is this, is this program funneling folks to other existing folks or is this counselors and therapists and prescribers inside the MSU system? [00:13:23] Misty Oebel: We work with partners. This is one of the things we wanted to do. Like for example, I have a background in counseling psychology. Our program lead has a background in psychology as well. We have the backgrounds in it, but we don't want to be doing therapy because that takes us away from that education piece. So we refer to licensed therapists and it's been really good so far. I think it's been a really great program. We try to look for therapists that have a background in agriculture as well. We recognize the subculture of farming is unique, and we don't want to send them to people who are not going to understand where they're coming from. We want to make sure that there's that background there already. [00:13:56] Craig Macmillan: In your experience so far can you describe what some of the aspects of a agricultural subculture are like? Because I agree with you. I think there's very much some commonalities. And there's a cultural component that's different than other aspects of American life. What are some of the things that you've seen and what are some of the barriers that come from that? [00:14:18] Misty Oebel: Oh, goodness. Yeah, there's a lot. There are things that are so unique to farming that you don't see literally in any other profession. You rarely see people who identify so much with their work as growers and farmers. People who, you know, It's so inherently ingrained into who they are. It's becomes part of their identity. I could use an example. It's kind of how I came into the firm stress work. My dad grew up on a farm and, you know, just a little farm had six brothers and sisters, parents. They worked this farm and his father passed away when he was 17 years old. And within a couple of years, they realized that without. Their father, they really couldn't continue the operation. They started selling equipment, selling animals and leasing the farmland. And when I asked my dad about it, when I was a kid and was asking questions about what it was like when he grew up, one of the things he said that's always stuck with me is he said, you know, it was really strange to be a farm kid without a farm. Even after the farm was gone, he's still so identified with that aspect of his identity that it just. never occurred to him that you're not really a farm kid without a farm mate. He still was. And so that's very unique to farming. There's a legacy aspect of farming that we don't see in every other profession as well. There is an understanding that this is something that we want to continue to go on. And we passed into the family. So kids are growing up knowing there's that expectation that, that This is going to be passed on and we will be taking this over. So there's that legacy aspect of farming. There's the idea that you're in a rural community, so you have fewer neighbors than people in urban areas. So sometimes that can mean that you have really strong community nets, but other times it can mean that you feel really isolated as well. As we're entering a more modern area and we're seeing less individual farmers. I want to say it that way. We're seeing bigger operations, less small farms that can also feel really isolating for farmers because less people understand what they're going through, less people are able to relate to them on that level. There's so many things that are so unique to this subculture. And and they're also just so, so much, when we say salt of the earth, we're literally talking about farmers. They are the people who are out there day to day. They feed us. They're taking care of the land, and they take such pride in their work, and they're so conscientious about that work. I think that's really important to recognize. They're a completely different culture of people, and so I think it's really important. It's really valuable that this work exists just for the fact that this is a culture we can't lose in our country. [00:16:40] Craig Macmillan: Absolutely. And you know, having programs that say, Hey, we we understand you and where you're coming from, I think might help a lot. And I was very impressed by what I've seen online. It's very welcoming the way that it's presented. It can be very daunting to try to reach out for something that you've just assumed no one's going to understand, right? And if you kind of get the sense that there are people there for you who understand who you are and where you're coming from, I think that definitely helps. There are a couple of things that I noticed that I thought were really cool. One thing is the idea of resiliency. A resilient mindset and a productive mindset are two things you have. Materials about developing and maintaining and etc. Can you tell me about those two ideas? I just think that's just so interesting [00:17:24] Misty Oebel: I'm gonna argue, and I'm always gonna argue this, that a resilient mindset is a productive mindset, because a resilient mindset I think we could define it, if we're going to define it just at its simplest terms, it's, it's learned optimism. I think there's already innate optimism when we're talking about agriculture anyway, because otherwise, how do you face a drought one year and then go back and do the same thing the next year? You have to be optimistic. I mean, you just have to, it's innate. But I think that a resilient mindset is that learned optimism, which is we're able to accept that, you know what, things don't always go the way we want them to. Things often happen that we did not hope for. We face uncontrollable circumstances all the time, especially in farming, when you're dealing with weather or, you know, pests, things like that. So we have to be able to accept when things aren't going well and still be able to move forward with the idea that things are gonna be okay, even though things aren't going well. Now they're gonna be okay and we're gonna get through it. I've survived everything up to this point. I'm gonna survive this. I'm gonna go on to the next thing, and it might look different, but it could still be good. And I think that's that resilient mindset that we talk about. And there's so many benefits of a resilient mindset. You know it decreases depression and anxiety. We see better physical health because our cortisol and adrenaline levels, those stress hormones are lower. We also see again that ability to move forward and to be adaptive and to be more focused on problem solving than getting stuck on just what the problem is. So that resilient mindset, I always argue this resiliency is is productive. If you're not resilient, you're going to struggle and you're going to get stuck. And then you're not going to be very productive. [00:19:02] Craig Macmillan: I'm gonna call on you as a practitioner now? What are some examples of techniques or tools or things that I can that I can do that. They will help promote this in myself [00:19:11] Misty Oebel: The two most important aspects in resiliency is making sure you have that community. So making sure you're building a community, you're finding people who support you, who understand you and who care about you. That's the number one thing that is actually the most influential factor we have found in resiliency and whether somebody is going to bounce back from a difficult situation. Community social connection. We actually find isolation is really, really dangerous. It increases depression and anxiety, it increases cardiovascular issues, and suicidal ideation goes up when people feel lonely. So, community is number one. The second thing I always argue is really focusing on that emotional health piece. And we can do that in a lot of different ways. But one of the simplest ways is to start practicing those mindfulness techniques. And sometimes when I say that people are like, Oh, that's that hippie, dippy stuff. And I don't want to do that. You know but what we're really talking about there, did they just put a name to it? It's just being engaged. It's just being present in your moment. Cause sometimes we get into the habit of. I'm stressed and I've got a lot to do and we get into this autopilot mode and we just keep working and we plug away at it and we feel really good because we just keep going. But when we're doing that, we also have to ignore a lot of other things that are going on and we're not really aware of what's happening. So practicing mindfulness. Because practicing mindfulness allows us to be engaged enough to be aware of what's going well so we can be grateful. Gratefulness is really great for you know, resiliency. The other thing that it does is it allows us to notice when things aren't going well, and that allows us to do that problem solving and be like, okay, what can I fix? And then if something can't be fixed, okay, I can accept this can't be fixed, it's out of my control. And that's also really important for resiliency. And then that third piece to when we're really aware of what our moment is like it allows us to be aware of our emotions and to recognize them as they're happening and to process them instead of doing the thing where we like are just shoving those emotions down because I'm busy. So I'm going to shove it down and then I'm going to keep working and then another emotion flies in and you know what? I don't want to deal with that right now either. So I'm going to shove that down too until we blow up because we have just this overwhelming flood of emotions we've been ignoring. And so when we're practicing mindfulness, it allows us to process them as they're happening and they never get to that huge overwhelming stage. And we can practice mindfulness in a lot of really simple ways. It's not complicated. It's not something that you have to go through a class or something to learn how to do. You know, it's a journaling. I'm going to sit down every night and write down what went well today and what didn't. It is meditation or prayer breathing exercises, really, really simple breathing exercises that just make you pause. and stop and notice what is happening around you and in your body. That's it. [00:21:53] Craig Macmillan: And I'm guessing You're communicating these ideas in various forms. I mean, there must be print form, there must be video form, there must be face to face form. I mean, are you doing clinics, trainings, newsletters? What are all the different avenues that you're using to communicate these very, very, very practical, very specific things? What routes are you using to get those to people ? [00:22:14] Misty Oebel: Like I said before, if there is a room with growers in it, we try to be in that room. We, we speak at every opportunity that we possibly can because we do want to make sure the message is getting out. We participate in podcasts. We write articles, we write a lot of articles. We are actually in the process of re updating a lot of our program materials right now to make sure they're all fresh and all the information is new and current. So we do that. Those are all available online. The training programs that are available online. We talk to families who are in the middle of it. And so we talk to people on the phone. It's not unusual for us to spend an afternoon at a farmer's kitchen table. talking with them and figuring out what their next steps are. Literally any avenue. So we have all of these print materials that are available, a lot of stuff available through our website, but we are also people who are available. Should there be a need for that as well? [00:23:03] Craig Macmillan: Something else that I noticed that I thought was great is, you know, obviously farm stress doesn't just affect the adults that are involved. It also affects youth. And like you talked about this generationality aspect and how important it is. Just like you said, farm kid without a farm. It's farm kid. You know, that's part of the kid. Can you tell us a little bit about that and how that's fit into your program? [00:23:23] Misty Oebel: Yeah. That same study that I was talking about earlier by Rodolphe and Berg, as those numbers have come out, they also did study on farm youth. And what they found is that the numbers for depression are the same. About 60 percent of farm youth meet the criteria for general depression. We see slightly lower on generalized anxiety, it's about 45%. The number that I find really interesting, I want to know more about, is 62 percent are reporting the, the diagnostic criteria for separation anxiety, which is very, very interesting. Yeah, that one kind of throws me. I don't know where that's coming from, but it's really interesting. And I'd like to know more about that one. What this tells us is that as parents and adults, we're not doing as good as we think we are and hiding how we're doing. It tells me we're not doing as good as we think we are in hiding, you know, when stress is occurring, when we're depressed, when we're anxious. Kids are pretty intuitive and they pick up on that. I know my kids have called me out on stuff like that before and like you weren't hiding it as well as you think you were. So that happens. I think there's also when we go back to it, there's that legacy aspect of it where there's an understanding that if this farm is going to continue, somebody is going to step up, somebody is going to take over it. And so you see really young kids who start assuming the responsibility of the problems. well before they really need to do so. So that is absolutely impacting them as well. I think it makes it really, really, really important for parents to be paying attention for those signs of stress in their kids as well as in signs for themselves and their neighbors. They need to be paying attention. Are they showing mood changes? You know, are they suddenly really irritable? Are they having problems sleeping? Am I seeing differences in their appetites? Are they shutting down? Are we not talking as much as we used to talk? There's a lot of things that we need to pay attention to when it comes to our kids just to make sure that they're okay and so that we're able to connect them with the support that they need earlier rather than later. [00:25:13] Craig Macmillan: Is there one thing, just one piece of advice or one observation that you would recommend to our listeners around this topic? [00:25:20] Misty Oebel: Can I go with two? Is that ok? [00:25:22] Craig Macmillan: Two is great, do two. [00:25:23] Misty Oebel: Okay. One of the first things I want to come back to. It's something that we've talked about a few different times. Is this idea of the generational aspect and the legacy piece? Because that is absolutely a barrier in farmers in, seeking behavioral health support. There is kind of this idea of like, well, my dad was a farmer and he never saw a therapist and my grandpa was a farmer and he never saw a therapist. So is there something wrong with me now if I need additional support? And what we kind of forget is that depression and anxiety are not new. And if you're facing it, your dad probably had it too. Your grandpa probably had it too, but they were struggling silently and never got the support that they needed. And I think that when we're looking at generational stuff, we always try to do it a little bit better with each generation. We want the farm to be a little bit bigger, a little bit cleaner. We want to make sure that our processes are a little bit smoother. With each generation, it gets a little better and we do the same thing with parenting. You know, we want to be a slightly better parent to our kids than our parents were to us, and we hope that they do the same thing with their Children. So I think that makes it really important that we recognize that just because past generations weren't receiving help, that doesn't mean we shouldn't receive help. It actually makes it more important because we're trying to prioritize that, and we're trying to make those changes in the family. So that's the number one thing I can think of. And then the other thing, this is something I tell farmers all the time is the growers and the farmers that I know are very, very conscientious when it comes to caring for their land. And their animals and their crops and buildings and equipment, and they invest a lot of time and money into the maintenance of all of those things, because their assets but I'm always going to argue that the farmer is the most important asset in any farm. And so I really feel very strongly that it's important that we prioritize caring for ourselves and we recognize that self care is not selfish. It's very important. If you're the most important asset on your farm, you've got to make sure that you're taking care of yourself. [00:27:21] Craig Macmillan: I think that is a fantastic observation. Absolutely. Where can people find out more about you and more about the Farm Stress Management Program? [00:27:30] Misty Oebel: I'm always going to recommend you go to our website. Not only do we have all of those great resources, but you can connect with staff through that website. We have all of our pictures on there. I'm on there. Dr. Remington Rice is our program lead. He is phenomenal. He has his information even in multiple places on the site. So please reach out to us if you have any questions, thoughts, concerns want more information, that's the best way to get ahold of us. [00:27:53] Craig Macmillan: Fantastic. Our guest today has been Misty Oebel. She's a health and farm stress extension educator with Michigan State University Extension. Thanks for being on the podcast. This is one of those areas we don't talk about very much. And I'm really glad that we did. And I think the work you guys are doing is fantastic. And I hope that this model gets picked up in other states. We see it more widely applied because farming is important. And because farming is important, that means farmers are important. Just like you said, it's our asset. So thanks for being on podcast, Misty. [00:28:22] Misty Oebel: Thank you so much for having me. [00:28:23] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by vineyard professional services. Vineyard professional services works throughout the central coast of California, providing vineyard management, financial planning, vineyard development, equipment services, and a range of consulting services to wineries, growers, and investors. Established in 1997. VPS has leadership in San Louis Obispo, Santa Barbara . San Benito and Monterey counties. Their primary focus is effectively growing vineyard assets for quality and client profitability. Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Misty. Tools on how to cultivate a productive mindset. And managing stress on the farm. If you liked the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts@vineyardteam.org/podcast. And you can reach us at podcastatvineyardteam.org. Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

For this show I ask my friend with Brian Callahan, small vineyard farmer and co-owner of Crux Winery in the Russian River Valley of Sonoma (the Middle Reach though – the warmer part, so they do Rhône varietals) to tell us what a year in a Sonoma vineyard looks like. He takes us through what he has been doing for the last 18 years in his vineyard, a three acre plot that produces the beautiful fruit that turns into Crux wine.    This is a real look at what happens in the vineyard over the year to ensure a healthy harvest. We discuss what he can do and what Mother Nature gives or takes away that he may have to deal with!      ___________________   Full show notes and all back episodes are on Patreon. Become a member today! www.patreon.com/winefornormalpeople _______________________________________________________________   Check out my exclusive sponsor, Wine Access.  They have an amazing selection -- once you get hooked on their wines, they will be your go-to! Make sure you join the Wine Access-Wine For Normal People wine club for wines I select delivered to you four times a year!    To register for an AWESOME, LIVE WFNP class with Elizabeth or get a class gift certificate for the wine lover in your life go to: www.winefornormalpeople.com/classes    

Grapes grown to make wine are sensitive to climate conditions including temperatures and amount of rainfall.  The warming climate is already having visible effects on yields, grape composition, and the quality of wine.  This has significant consequences on the geography of wine production and is of major concern for the $350 billion global industry. Winegrowing […]

The Ramazzotti family has been managing vineyards in Sonoma County since the late 1970s, and they are well-known and respected grape growers and wine producers with a gorgeous new tasting room in Geyserville, CA. (Sonoma County) This week, I'm sitting down with Travis Ramazzotti, who is a second generation member of the family business and he talks about:What it was like growing up surrounded by vineyards and farmingHow old (young) he was when he learned to drive a tractorWhat led him to chose to be a part of the family businessWhy wine is important His impressions as we taste our 2021 Sangioveses (that we each made from grapes farmed by his family) side by sideYou'll also hear my partner, Michael, making his podcast debut!Here's the map of the Sonoma County AVA's we discussed.Check out Ramazzotti Wines to purchase and plan your visit here! Follow the on on IG @ramazzotti_winesPurchase our Sollevato Sangiovese here. Use code PODLISTENER for 10% off.If you'd like to Support the Podcast, you can buy me a glass of wine, I would be so grateful!Please consider Rating, Reviewing and Following Us on Apple Podcasts!“Every episode is such a great blend of fun, education and personal experience! By the end of each listen I know more about the food and wine world than when I hit play (and am also usually hungry and thirsty for a lovely food & wine pairing)."(Shout out to Elizloop for this great review.)Want to leave your own review (and get a show note shout out?) Click Here, scroll to the bottom, tap to rate with Stars and select "write a review" and let us know what you loved most about this episode!Want more tips to get the most out of your wine? Get my Wine Tips Cheat Sheet here.Questions, suggestions and guest requests? nikki@sipwithnikki.com

Iconic Washington winegrower Dick Boushey discusses how the Washington wine industry has changed over the years, what advice he would give to people who want to get into the winegrowing business, and what he's looking forward to at this year's Taste Washington March 16th and 17th at Seattle's Lumen Field Event Center. Info at TasteWashington.org

Meet Chris Kenefick, the CEO and Second Generation Proprietor of Kenefick Ranch Vineyard & Winery. The Kenefick family has owned the property in Calistoga since 1980. Chris's journey led him from a Napa upbringing to a career in hospitality in Denver. In 2016, he returned to Napa to follow his passion for wine. Over the next five years, Chris delved into national wine sales, gaining comprehensive experience in the vineyard and winery operations. In 2021, he took on the role of CEO after his father's passing, carrying on the family legacy. Chris's unique perspective and passion continue to shape the exceptional wines produced in the Calistoga region, blending tradition with innovation.   Here's a glimpse of what you'll learn:  Chris shares the rich history of Kenefick Ranch, dating back to 1980, and his role in leading the family legacy Chris shares insights in the evolution of sales distribution and the transition to direct-to-consumer sales Chris talks about transitioning from selling grapes to producing wine in-house, focusing on small-batch winemaking The discussion includes how contracts with other wineries work in terms of vineyard management and production Discover the dynamics of working with grape growers and the relationships with vineyard partners PR and marketing and strategies used to market Kenefick Ranch Chris introduces their unique virtual tastings and addresses the challenges of not having a physical tasting room while expanding their wine club Chris highlights the vineyard's certifications in Fish Friendly Farming and Napa Green Chris shares his vision for the winery's future and how he envisions the evolution of Calistoga and Napa Chris provides valuable advice for those considering returning to their family wineries   In this episode with Chris Kenefick Join us on an exciting journey through the vineyards of Calistoga as we sit down with Chris Kenefick of Kenefick Ranch Vineyard & Winery. Take a trip down memory lane as Chris shares the rich history of his family's vineyard since 1980. Discover the evolution of Kenefick Ranch's distribution strategies, their foray into small-batch winemaking, and the intricate management of vineyard contracts.  In today's episode of the Legends Behind the Craft podcast, Drew Thomas Hendricks and Bianca Harmon are joined by Chris Kenefick, CEO and Second Generation Proprietor of Kenefick Ranch. Chris sheds light on the family legacy, the challenges of marketing a boutique winery, and the innovative approach of virtual tastings to bring the Napa experience straight to your home. Tune in for insights on sustainable certifications, future winemaking endeavors, and valuable advice for those considering a return to their family's winery roots.   Sponsor for this episode… This episode is brought to you by Barrels Ahead. Barrels Ahead is a wine and craft marketing agency that propels organic growth by using a powerful combination of content development, Search Engine Optimization, and paid search. At Barrels Ahead, we know that your business is unique. That's why we work with you to create a one-of-a-kind marketing strategy that highlights your authenticity, tells your story, and makes your business stand out from your competitors. Our team at Barrels Ahead helps you leverage your knowledge so you can enjoy the results and revenue your business deserves. So, what are you waiting for? Unlock your results today! To learn more, visit barrelsahead.com or email us at hello@barrelsahead.com to schedule a strategy call.

Which aspect of winemaking has the greatest impact on the environment? Are you curious about the difference between sustainable and organic winemaking? What are the six pillars of sustainable winegrowing leadership? In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with sustainability expert Anna Brittain. You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks   Highlights How did Anna realize she wanted to dedicate her career to environmental work? What drives Anna to work in climate action and sustainability within the wine industry? What does it mean to be voted as “the most intriguing environmentalist”? How did the global pandemic contribute to the worst moment in Anna's wine career? What was the impact of COVID-19 on consumer investment in sustainability and climate action? What was it like to put together the first climate and wine symposium? Is wine production bad for the environment? What does it mean for the wine industry to be a leader in soil-to-bottle sustainability? What are the biggest misconceptions about sustainability? Why did Anna create the six pillars of sustainable winegrowing leadership? How can you distinguish between sustainability, organic, and biodynamic practices? Why are there so many different organic certifications in the US? How can vineyards optimize irrigation systems and water use? What does it take to start dry farming? How can energy efficiency potentially produce cost savings for vineyards? What do wineries need to think about when it comes to waste management and supply chain emissions? Is it irresponsible for wineries to continue to use extremely heavy-weight bottles?   Key Takeaways Anna provides an excellent global view of wine's impact on the environment rather than just focusing narrowly or organic winemaking or sustainability. She gave us a clear definition on the differences between sustainable and organic winemaking. I think most people might assume that wine made organically is also farmed sustainably, but that's not always the case. She also presents clear and compelling facts such as that 40-50% of the emissions from a winery operation come from packaging and distribution alone.   Join me on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube Live Join the live-stream video of this conversation on Wed at 7 pm ET on Instagram Live Video, Facebook Live Video or YouTube Live Video. I want to hear from you! What's your opinion of what we're discussing? What takeaways or tips do you love most from this chat? What questions do you have that we didn't answer? Want to know when we go live? Add this to your calendar: https://www.addevent.com/calendar/CB262621   About Anna Brittain Anna Brittain has worked locally, nationally and internationally on environmental management and policy with organizations ranging from the environmental economics think tank Resources for the Future in Washington, DC to the International Union for Conservation of Nature in Hanoi, Vietnam. She has spent over 12 years facilitating and growing sustainability in the wine industry, with expertise in communications and certification standards.     To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/258.

In the second hour of "Connections with Evan Dawson" on Friday, August 4, 2023, we talk about a new state program aimed at making winegrowing sustainable.

Michael Honig is the President of Honig Vineyard & Winery. He embarked on his wine-selling journey in December of 1983 at the age of 21. Taking charge of the struggling family business at just 22 years old, he transformed it into a thriving success over the past 30 years. He is a leader in sustainable farming, chairing the development of a "Code of Sustainable Winegrowing Practices" in California. Additionally, he has been involved in innovative initiatives like training puppies to detect vine mealy bugs and reducing pesticide usage. Michael also serves on the boards of various organizations, including the Napa Valley Vintners Association, California Sustainable Winegrowing Alliance, and other notable organizations.   Here's a glimpse of what you'll learn:  Michael shares his experience of starting to sell wine at the age of 21 Honig Vineyard & Winery has become one of the frontrunners in the Sauvignon Blanc industry in Napa Valley. Their production focuses primarily on two varietals: Cabernet Sauvignon and Sauvignon Blanc. Michael discusses how the Honig brand has evolved over the years Michael explores the transformation of Sauvignon Blanc in their terroir and winemaking process He shares his thoughts on wine scores and ratings Discover the story behind the Honig Postcards and their role in connecting with wine enthusiasts Michael discusses the marketing strategies employed by Honig Vineyard & Winery Learn about their unique sustainable efforts, including the use of sniffer dogs and removing foils from packaging Michael shares an exciting upcoming project focused on preparing for the fourth generation at Honig Vineyard & Winery   In this episode with Michael Honig Michael Honig of Honig Vineyard & Winery shares the fascinating story behind their iconic brand. From Michael's early days of selling wine at the age of 21 to taking over the winery full-time, we delve into the evolution of the Honig brand and its domination in the Sauvignon Blanc industry in the heart of Napa Valley. In today's episode of the Legends Behind the Craft podcast, Drew Thomas Hendricks and Bianca Harmon are joined by Michael Honig, the president of Honig Vineyard & Winery. Discover how their wines and terroir have evolved over the years, the impact of wine scores and ratings, their unique marketing strategies, sustainable efforts, and exciting projects on the horizon for the fourth generation.   Sponsor for this episode… This episode is brought to you by Barrels Ahead. Barrels Ahead is a wine and craft marketing agency that propels organic growth by using a powerful combination of content development, Search Engine Optimization, and paid search. At Barrels Ahead, we know that your business is unique. That's why we work with you to create a one-of-a-kind marketing strategy that highlights your authenticity, tells your story, and makes your business stand out from your competitors. Our team at Barrels Ahead helps you leverage your knowledge so you can enjoy the results and revenue your business deserves. So, what are you waiting for? Unlock your results today! To learn more, visit barrelsahead.com or email us at hello@barrelsahead.com to schedule a strategy call.

Ellie Zeron of Elk Haven Winery and Zeron Vineyards discusses why she chose to plant a vineyard on Red Mountain, how to make wine drinking more accessible, and what it's like being a Latinx person in a white male-dominated industry. Learn more at ElkHavenWinery.com, ZeronVineyards.com, and RedMountainAVA.com

This week on our Vino Lingo segment we feature Justin Seidenfeld, Sr. Vice President of Winemaking & Winegrowing, Rodney Strong Vineyards, Sonoma, defining the term “Leadership”.  Learn more by visiting www.rodneystrong.com

This time around I find myself in Chicago visiting with Justin Seidenfeld, Sr, Vice President of Winemaking & Winegrowing at Rodney Strong Vineyards in Sonoma. In town for a wine event, Justin has had a lot going on since our last interview back in October, 2016, including Rowen Wines and Cooley Ranch. As Justin knows, [...]

Tonight, All About Wine welcomes Allison Jordan, Executive Director, California Sustainable Winegrowing Alliance & Vice President - Environmental Affairs, Wine Institute. Hosted by Ron since 2009.  Wine maker, cellar master, vineyardist and tasting expert, Ron, makes wine less confusing and more fun.  Learn something new each week during the show. We are always looking for guests to talk about their winery, vineyard, wine-related product, enology, horticulture and more.  Visit our website for details on how to "be a guest". Tune in via our BlogTalkRadio Page, our Facebook page, Twitter, YouTube, Mixcloud & Flightline Radio!

This is the third time I've interviewed winemaker Ted Henry - each time at a different winery. It's not that I'm a Ted groupie. As a matter of fact, I didn't plan to interview him when he moved to Groth Vineyard and Winery in 2021. But then I read four wines he produced when he was with Clos du Val winery won awards on an international stage...how could I pass up getting that story? Fortunately, we also cover much of what he's been doing since moving to Groth. Ted is now the Director of Winegrowing, in addition to being the winemaker. All they ask from Ted is to "continue to make beautiful, elegant wines of place — wines that excite people."  Join me as I travel to Oakville, Napa Valley during this On The Wine Road Podcast.  Photo compliments of Visit Napa Valley

LeRoy is joined by show guest Eric Knight. Listen in as they talk music, and of course, everyone's favorite subject. Wine!

Winegrape growers in San Joaquin County embrace holistic farming approach, and the growth in the number of Farmers Markets has slowed.

On this episode, LeRoy is joined by show guest Chris Baptiste of Blue Ribbon Cruises. They're a travel company that specializes in doing "Wine Cruises" for wineries. Join in and here the fun details as they discuss the many winery cruises through Europe and the old world wine country.You can find out more about the wine cruises at: www.blueribboncruise.comor by e-mailing Chris at: chris@blueribboncruise.com

Maggie Hedges, the owner, winegrower, and winemaker of Domaine Magdalena and President of the Red Mountain American Viticultural Area Alliance, discusses what makes Red Mountain wine unique, how to introduce our kids to wine in a way that's socially acceptable, and what the future looks like for women in the wine industry.

Have you ever pictured yourself coming home at the end of your work day with mud-stained boots from working in a vineyard, or red wine stains on your shirt after shoveling grapes in a winery?  Well if getting your hands dirty speaks to you, then strap your hat on for today's episode.  Our guest is Nate Weis, the VP of Winegrowing and a winemaker at the prestigious Silver Oak Winery and Twomey Cellars.  He will give you a sense of what it's like to work in the vineyard and in the wine cellar, from entry level jobs to being the boss.  So, if you want a peek behind the curtain to learn about jobs that take wine from grapes to glass this show is for you. Resources: Book a private career coaching session with Karen Wetzel at https://go.oncehub.com/KarenWetzel Receive a 5% discount on any Napa Valley Wine Academy classes, including WSET.  Register for your course at www.napavalleywineacademy and use promo-code NVWApodcast Sign up for our newsletter at https://go.napavalleywineacademy.com/wine-news-that-educates to learn about upcoming events, new courses and free webinars Silver Oak : https://silveroak.com/   Twomey :  https://twomey.com/

This episode we are joined by Rick Delucio, a WSET Level 3 Sommelier, and Lindsey Pomeroy, a Certified Master of Wine. Listen in as they talk about their wine classes, Wine Smarties, and all things wine. Hear their stories and so much more in this can't miss episode.You can find out more about our show guests and their classes at: www.winesmarties.com

This episode LeRoy is joined by show guest Austin Kerr, the founder of Coordinates Vineyards, a winery nestled in the burgeoning Texas Wine Country. Listen in as they discuss his fascinating story as well as talk Texas and South African wines.You can find out more about Coordinates Vineyards at: www.coordinatesvineyards.com

Maya Dalla Valle was born in exclusive Napa Valley, grew up in a cult winery, and even had one of those cults named after her. Maya lost her dad at a young age, left town to study international relations, but eventually came back to wine, first receiving two Master's Degrees in wine, from Cornell and Bordeaux Agro Science. She put her boots on the ground and worked at some of the finest wineries around the world, including Petrus, Latour and Ornellaia. Maya returned home to join her mom Naoko at their eponymous winery and oversees all winegrowing and winemaking at Dalla Valle Vineyards.Heritage Radio Network is a listener supported nonprofit podcast network. Support The Grape Nation by becoming a member!The Grape Nation is Powered by Simplecast.

This episode we're joined by show guests Mike & Paula Carol who among other things, grow wine grapes on their ranch in De Luz, CA. A follow up to the last episode, join in as we explore what it takes to grow grapes. With a little DIY attitude, anyone can get in on the fun.

Dr. Tarah Sullivan is Assistant Professor of Soil Microbiology at Washington State University. In this interview, Tarah discusses how the plant microbiome mirrors the human gut, the ways in which soil microorganisms can alter the bioavailability of micronutrients and metals for plants, why plants in alkaline soils can be deficient in iron when the soil is not, if cover crops can improve soil microbial communities, and what is next for her research. Tarah's research emphasis is on linking the function and phylogeny of the soil microbiome, specifically with regard to the interactions and impacts on metal bioavailability and soil health. Whether the context is micronutrient availability in the rhizosphere, which confers plant growth promotion and crop enhancement, or in the context of contaminated systems where bioremediation and bioaugmentation are the best options to remediate heavy metals polluted sites, the soil microbiome is key in these biotransformations. Understanding the consortia of organisms and the mechanisms involved drives the work done in her lab with a wide array of biochemical and molecular techniques. References: 28: Understanding Soil Health (Podcast) 53: Producing Compost and Carbon Sequestration (Podcast) 106: What? Bury Charcoal in the Vineyard?  (Podcast) 113: Microbial Inoculants for Soil Health  (Podcast) Digging into Soil Bacteria and Chlorosis Floor Management for Soil Health SIP Certified Soil Microbiology & Agricultural Sustainability | Tarah Sullivan (Podcast) Tarah Sullivan, Assistant Professor of Soil Microbiology, Washington State University Vineyard Team Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship   Get More Subscribe on Google Play, iHeartRADIO, iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

Have you ever been curious to learn more about viticulture? Ever wondered how hard it would be to sprout your own vines? Join us this week as we take a deeper look into sprouting and growing grape vines for wine making.

The government last week delivered a timeline for the border to - slowly - crack open again, but many in the primary sector fear it'll be too late to make a dent in their worker shortages and help meet critical deadlines. Vaccinated Kiwis in Australia can come home at the end of this month, while those New Zealanders in other parts of the world will be welcome from March 13 - which is also when higher-paid skilled migrants and those on working holiday visas can gain entry. But it's not until mid-April that the offshore temporary visa holders that many industries rely on will be able to start returning - with the possibility of further class exceptions for lower-paid critical workforces. And decisions are still being made on what the phasing in will look like. Kathryn speaks with two representatives of the primary sector: Philip Gregan from New Zealand Winemakers and Chris Lewis, board member and employment spokesperson for Federated Farmers.

Why does Martin want to “make lighter bottles sexy”? Here are some hints: It has to do with protecting the planet, safeguarding our future, and rethinking the wine business. Get ready to throw your preconceptions and misconceptions onto the compost pile and join us in Ep. 98 for an eye-opening conversation about sustainable winegrowing. Here to help us find a sustainable future are Anna Brittain, a sustainability advocate and Executive Director of Napa Green; and Sandra Taylor, founder and President of Sustainable Business International, Falk Professor of Socially Responsible Business at Chatham University, and founder of Fine Wine Divas.

Bruce Zoecklein began his career in Enology on the staff at Fresno State University in California.  He was recruited in 1985 by the University of Virginia to head up a new initiative to support the Virginia wine industry.  His West Coast friends thought he was "crazy" as they couldn't fathom that quality wine was being produced in Virginia.  Bruce took the position and relocated to Virginia.  His contribution to winemaking in the Old Dominion has been significant and he is well respected by the Industry at large, not just in Virginia, but throughout the country.  He continues to consult for numerous wine producers in Virginia and the West Coast including Oregon & Washington State as well as California.  He has co-authored books on Enology, written for numerous publications and has been quoted and relied upon for advice to this day.  While he is retired and Professor Emeritus with an office at Virginia Tech he is by no means retired or finished working and making a contribution to the wine industry.HIGHLIGHTS FROM THE INTERVIEW:a).  Bruce details his early career and how he went from teaching Enology at Fresno State University in California to Virginia.b). He goes on to make a comment about how his friends on the West Coast couldn't believe that Virginia could possibly produce quality wine.c). He explains how he was recruited for the position at Virginia Tech University in 1985.d). Bruce expands on the progress that he has seen and has been a part of during the past three decades of winegrowing in the Old Dominion.e). Specifically he explains how in his opinion the 2003 vintage in Virginia, which was more than challenging proved to him that Virginia had arrived and could produce good wine in a wet year.f). He answers my question about the difference in growing grapes in Virginia vs the West Coast.h). Bruce gives me his thoughts and opinions on the future of Hybrid grapes and wine in Virginia.i). He wrote a terrific opinion piece for Wines & Vines in  the February 2018 edition about the effect of Climate Changes on Winegrowing and responds to my questions about Climate Change with the authority of an Enology Professor who grasps the significance of what is happening.Much, much more.  Listen below or read the text transcript.

Winegrowing is all about controlling the slightest variations of flavor. With climate change causing warmer temperatures that change wine flavor, wildfires that turn grapes smokey, and sudden frosts that can entirely ruin a harvest, wine lovers certainly have reason to be concerned. This week, we discuss how climate change impacts wine, how these challenges fit into the rapidly globalizing wine industry, and what needs to happen to ensure you can still buy your favorite wines in the future. With special guest Dr. Michelle Moyer: Associate Professor of Viticulture and Enology at Washington State University. The Sweaty Penguin is presented by Peril and Promise: a public media initiative from The WNET Group in New York, reporting on the issues and solutions around climate change. You can learn more at pbs.org/perilandpromise. Support the show and unlock exclusive merch, bonus content, and more for as little as $5/month at patreon.com/thesweatypenguin.

Paul Vandenberg, owner of Paradisos del Sol vineyard and winery, joins the podcast for the first time. 

Historic influences of both France and Germany have shaped the region of Alsace and its wines.  Foulques Aulagnon, Export Marketing Manager of Conseil Interprofessionnel des Vins d’Alsace (aka - “CIVA” or “Wines of Alsace”) tells XChateau about how CIVA promotes this small corner of northeast France globally.  CIVA takes Alsace global to spread the word about some of the world’s most underappreciated wines, from Wine Trucks to an emphasis on food and wine pairing.  This episode is sponsored by Sonoma State University’s Wine Executive MBA program.  A 17-month, transformative program that builds leadership skills and business acumen focused on the specific needs of the wine world.  Learn more about SSU’s Wine MBA programs here.  If this is something you’re considering, the next session’s enrollment deadline is Feb 28, 2021, for courses starting in April!!  Detailed Show NotesAlsace background - “a pearl” of a winegrowing region38,500 acres2 million-year-old soils2nd driest wine region in France90% white wine, 10% red wine (all from Pinot Noir)25% of production is Cremant d’Alsace (sparkling wine)German influence (varietal on the label)Mosaic of soils and grape varietals (e.g., Sylvaner, Pinot Gris, Gewurztraminer, Riesling, Pinot Noir)> 300-year-old family estatesCIVA responsible for everything but the rules of production, with 3 major roles: Business monitoring and strategic planningTechnical viticultural supportMarketing communicationMission & purpose - increase positive awareness of Alsace globally and boost wine salesMain areas of focus (marketing side)Public relations - programming with media and tradePromotions and communications - in-store, social media, POS, educational materialsCommercial development - support wineries looking for importers, distributionHow does CIVA measure success? Sales increase in value and volumePR / press impact - readers reached and exposureCIVA members - every independent winegrower, co-operatives, and negociants - anyone in the AOC is automatically part of CIVAIt’s a private organization but recognized by the French stateFunding is through mandatory contributions by winegrowers with small support from the EUMarket focus and support examples: Investing in over 15 countriesHistorically active in EU, especially Northern EuropeNow more in the US, Canada, and JapanExamples of supportSwitzerland grocery store chain - provided media support to boost salesWines of Quebec - offered content and help to bloggers to produce content on Alsace winesProvide info on food and wine pairings and consumer eventsProvides information for visiting the vineyards of AlsaceAlsace Rocks - a 360-degree program of press, trade, and consumer events, started in New York City in 2018, went global afterwardWine Truck Tour in Canada (Ontario and Quebec) - a food truck styled wine tasting with a terrace, tables, and chairs; competition to win Alsace wines, taste at your own leisure, and opportunities to share on socialWWII Impact on AlsaceBecame French again post WWIIHistory of being both German and French gives the region strengthBut, only being consistent since WWII has resulted in Alsace being a bit behind in building its reputation as a wine regionThe leader in organic and biodynamic winesIn 2020, 32% of the wine was certified organic1st producer of biodynamic wines (in the 1960s)

Wine harvesting in Lanzarote is exceptional. Instead of vineyards the vines grow in hollows. Heat and humidity are stored here. The earth is rich in minerals and organic farming is in trend.

What happens when the best in the world can't tell if a wine comes from the Willamette Valley in Oregon or Burgundy, France? What happens when the experts can't tell if the bubbles are from Champagne or California.Does a place really have a taste? Can we find it in the glass?That is the premise of terroir, tasting the land, localizing the product. But often, when put "terroir" to the test it cannot be found. Today's episode starts with the story of the 1976 Judgement of Paris tasting, a famous part of wine history that pitted French terroir-driven wines against terroir-less California wines. The competition had a blind tasting for red wine and for white wines. The red wines were predominantly Cabernet Sauvignon and the white wines were the Chardonnay variety.We are also going to see what happens when Terroir is used as a basis for certifications. I'll share with you some of the limitations of the "geographic protectionism" and the Appellation d'Origine Contrôlée (AOC) system.Certifications are usually protective tools but sometimes they can work against the producers they are meant to protect.How can such a romantic and noble concept, tasting the land, respecting nature - work against producers?To pick future podcast topics, get access to the scientific papers, ask questions that I answer on the podcast, and help me continue making episodes: consider supporting the show by Joining Patreon HereMentioned on the podcast:The historical origins are from the book Terroir and Other Myths of Winegrowing by Mark A Matthews.Bottle Shock MovieA CougarRacist Champagne