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Meet your vineyard night-shift rodent patrol —barn owls. Bob Peak, a dedicated volunteer at Pacific Wildlife Care, shares how these incredible predators consume up to 30 gophers or voles a night. Learn fun facts about their short lifecycle, nesting habits, and how to properly install nest boxes (hint: ventilation and road direction matter!). Discover how you can encourage barn owls to thrive on your land—plus, hear how these owls even foster orphaned chicks. Resources:         REGISTER: 6/6/25 Tailgate | Bird Abatement and Managing Wildlife in the Vineyard 58: Barn Owls 84: Falconry Bird Abatement 118: Managing Rodent Pests in Vineyards with Integrated Pest Management Build Your Own Owl Box Cornell Lab All About Birds National Wildlife Rehabilitators Association Pacific Wildlife Care The Barn Owl Box Company The Barn Owl Trust (UK) UC Davis Raptor Center Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:04] Beth Vukmanic: Meet your vineyard, night shift Rodent patrol - barn owls. Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, executive director [00:00:18] In today's podcast, Craig Macmillan critical resource manager at Niner Wine Estates with longtime SIP Certified Vineyard in the first ever SIP Certified winery. Speaks with Bob Peak, a dedicated volunteer at Pacific Wildlife Care. [00:00:34] Bob shares how these incredible predators consume up to 30 gophers or voles a night. Learn fun facts about their short lifecycle nesting habitats, and how to properly install nest boxes, hint, ventilation, and road direction matter. [00:00:50] Discover how you could encourage barn owls to thrive on your land plus. Here how these owls even foster orphaned chicks. [00:00:58] If you love this topic and want to learn even more about barn owls, you won't want to miss the June 6th, 2025 tailgate on bird abatement and managing wildlife in the vineyard. [00:01:09] Hosted at Jackson Family Wines Bar M Vineyard in Los Alamos, California. We'll see a live falconry demonstration and learn the latest barn owl research from California Polytechnic State University, including how changes in vineyard habitat affect foraging behavior. To register, just go to vineyard team.org/events or look for the link in the show notes. [00:01:33] Now, let's listen in. [00:01:38] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Bob Peak. He is a volunteer with Pacific Wildlife care in SLO County, California. And today we're gonna talk about barn owls. Thanks for being on the podcast, Bob. [00:01:48] Bob Peak: Thank you very much Craig, and I want to thank you and the Niner Wine Estates for this invitation. I think that this going to be very informative and quite fascinating actually. [00:02:00] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, so I'll give you a little bit of background on that. I met Bob, when he came out to Niner Wine estates, looking for clutches, looking for looking for outlets, and we learned all kinds of fascinating things. And I was like, I have got to talk to this guy on the podcast 'cause there's so much information and interesting things about barn owls that I didn't know, until a couple months ago. [00:02:23] But why don't we start with you telling us a little bit about, pacific wildlife Care. [00:02:28] Bob Peak: Yes. Pacific Wildlife Care was started 41 years ago here in the county by home rehabbers. There was no facility. People did their work in their specialty right out of their home, whether it was raccoons or opossums. We people tended to have a different skill that they were good at, and it started with very humble beginnings. [00:02:51] We finally reached a point where we could afford a facility and we went and occupied part of the PG&E power plant there in Morrow Bay. We are right next door to the Marine Mammal Center, if anyone knows where that is, and we are right now in the process of having to move as they are, also as there are plans coming up for the property. [00:03:17] We currently have had some donors step up and provide us with not only the 10 acres of land on Buckley Road in San Luis Obispo, but we are also very quickly in the process of building a brand new facility out there. [00:03:35] Craig Macmillan: That is really great. There's definitely a need for this. How did you personally become involved in wildlife rehabilitation? [00:03:43] Bob Peak: I needed something to do after I retired and I literally, I saw an ad in the Tribune, a local paper that said that they were looking for volunteers and I had had some experience with the birds of prey as a a child. I have a Native American background and they're a very important part of our culture. [00:04:04] we, we learned about them early on and the opportunity to work around people that were like-minded as far as with the animals in San Luis Bipo County was rather exciting. [00:04:18] Craig Macmillan: And so let's move on. Talk about barn owls specifically. Why is it important to encourage and protect barn owls? [00:04:24] Bob Peak: Ooh, that's a good question. barn owls are a species that really keep things in check. They're the balance to something that could get outta control very quickly. and I think we all see that, whether it's at our houses or at the wineries. And that's these, the rodents and other pests. That not only are harmful to us but they're harmful to our crops and even potential danger to us as well. [00:04:56] They are voracious eaters. They consume anywhere between six to eight voles or gophers a night. And that's each when a parent is feeding the young. That number can go up by times four. You could see that you might be 30 vols taken a night. So they do a tremendous job for the environment. And again, they, they're more of a checks and balances. [00:05:29] I think too that the more barn owls that you have in an area it means that you're basically protected. It's one of those things too where people also think the same way with the, the skunks or opossums and raccoons. They can be nuisances at times, but they serve a very good purpose in eliminating all kinds of pests, insects, and things that you don't want. [00:05:56] Craig Macmillan: What is the lifecycle of a barn owl? [00:06:00] Bob Peak: . I wrote a couple of notes down on this. The lifecycle is rather short for barn owl. The, they're cavity nesters, what happens is the, the barn owl parents make for life, they're monogamous. So they'll stick around they'll find a cavity barn or something that a box where they'll head in and lay anywhere between one and eight eggs. The incubation period is rather quick. [00:06:38] The breeding season is basically between late January and February for about six to eight weeks. , about a week and a half before the female laser eggs, she's nest bound. She's too heavy to fly. She can't even get out of the box. [00:06:53] Another thing that she does at that same time is she picks a little brood patch. On her belly to where she can remove those feathers. And once the young born, 'cause they have no feathers, she will put them right next to that skin of hers for the warmth that they're gonna need. [00:07:15] Incubation is 29 to about 34 days. Again, they could lay between one and eight eggs. And they can do that three times a year. They might just have one clutch of eight. They could have two or maybe even three if the conditions are right. [00:07:33] She'll turn these eggs every so many minutes and then it takes, oh, I would say, you know, like 29 to 34 days, [00:07:44] and then the chick to get out from the shell. The have this little hook on the end of their bill. It's an egg tooth that's on the end of their, bill. And then that will actually break the egg open and it does take a while for, it takes 12 to 36 hours for 'em to get out of that eggshell. Four to seven. [00:08:08] It'll be about four months before they'll see another. But brood, because once they leave, then they'll lay more eggs. [00:08:17] The four months will pass from the egg being laid to the young, gaining independence. That's it. And they pretty much don't receive much training from their parents. It's, they get out of the box and then they're on their own. Where a great horned owl will spend up to a year or more, even longer with their parents. [00:08:37] Craig Macmillan: Hmm. [00:08:39] Bob Peak: A freshly hatched barnells Pink mentioned that know they hatch in sequence of the way that they were laid. [00:08:46] Craig Macmillan: Oh. [00:08:46] Bob Peak: The oldest could be three weeks old when the youngest hatches. So there is a. A challenge for food with that young one because that big one's gonna be going after it. So that's right off the bat. You know, you got some you know, some things working against you. [00:09:03] The downey Plumage starts to show up about three weeks later. They tend to clutch together and for that warmth till then. And then the female again, is taking the food brought by the male. The male is doing all the hunting. And the male will bring it in. The female will grab that food and rip it apart and feed it individually to each of the babies. Very small pieces [00:09:31] about the time they're two weeks old, they can stand on their own and they can actually eat whole prey. And now that's something to see on itself, to watch these little critters take a vole or a small mouse and swallow that you think they're gonna choke. It's quite. For a parent, you know, you're worried, you know [00:09:53] once the, the youngest chick can feed itself, then mom will leave the nest for hunting too. No longer needed to rip food. And then it takes both parents to feed those animals. And because each of the young ones are gonna need three or more mice themselves. On top of mom and dad eating each needing 8, 6, 7, or eight themselves. [00:10:23] Average time to fledge is about nine weeks. Fledgling means they basically are fully feathered and ready to take off to see the world. They can test their wings sometimes, but to do so a lot of times there's no perch. There's just basically the entry and exit hole. That's why we find 'em so many times on the ground. They're curious. They get close to that or sometimes they can get pushed out again. Most of the time when we receive them, it's because they've fallen out of a nest. [00:10:58] , if they are on the ground, they're pretty much doomed because. There's raccoons in your area, Craig. You've got Bobcat, you've got mountain lions, coyotes. We're trying to get them back into that box as soon as we can. [00:11:13] Fledglings will continue to be fed by the parents for about three months, maybe even a little longer. By. Oh, I would say November. The fledglings will have dispersed if they were laid in the summer and they found a territory settled into a new Nest site. But life is hard for the new ones. It's true of owls and it's true of the raptors, hawks, eagles and things. The survival rate is low. The survival rates can average 37 to 65%. [00:11:54] Craig Macmillan: Hmm. [00:11:54] Bob Peak: But the odds improve greatly. If they make it past their first year, they gotta get the skills down. Many young barnells starve to death. Typically, they'll live only another three or four, three years through typical lifespan. [00:12:09] Craig Macmillan: Hmm. [00:12:10] Bob Peak: The barn owls do not typically hunt close to their nest box. They like to leave, they like to go to open fields where they can fly low. Listening for rodents. A lot of times, again, we think of them as using their sight, but they have incredible hearing as well. Just look at those ears on a great horn owl. [00:12:31] The one of the reasons why they get into trouble as well, when they're going close to the ground or just flying after something, they're looking down and they're not looking ahead. That's why they could easily run into the side of a truck. On a side, you know, a highway and you see them very frequently on the side of the road. 'cause that's just what they did. They ran right into the side of it. They can run into power poles, they run into anything that's there in front of them they can run into. So it's, it can be dangerous. About 80% of fatalities are from traffic casualties, 80%. It is really important to keep your nest boxes away from the road and the highway and the entrance hole. Of course, we talked about this, Craig is always facing east and never facing a busy road. [00:13:27] Would you like me to talk about the nest box that we have come to? [00:13:32] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. First of all though, i, you know, you mentioned, mice and voles most of vineyards are interested in gophers. How important are gophers to their diet? [00:13:43] Bob Peak: Oh, extremely. They're, they're just like a vole. Very similar. They're like the, the same thing. They love gophers. I think that you'll find it in in vineyards like yours where you take a more natural approach to things. You're letting much Mother Nature do this work. And the gophers are very delicious for these barn owls they're meaty usually. The mice can be a little smaller, it's very good. That's why they prefer a gopher or a vol. [00:14:18] I know that some of the vineyards around also will spray and we talked about this you know, using no, , insecticides and things like that where yours is a, you know, a kind of a, a free zone and when you're spraying on the ground and things chemicals. Those are picked up by the rodents and things of that nature and transferred to the barn owl. So, another reason to take your approach to vineyard management. Very important step. It's, it keeps everything safe. [00:14:53] Craig Macmillan: Let's talk about barn owl nesting boxes now. You mentioned, you mentioned a couple of things. You said nightmare road. The opening facing east is preferable. Will they not nest if the opening is facing north or west or south? [00:15:08] Bob Peak: They will, but you're gonna expose them to wind and air and possibly rain that will you know, get in there. That's typical. Most of our, our, our weather fronts are coming from west to east, so it gives them a little added protection [00:15:26] also to that sun coming up in the morning. It gives some warmth into the box. Yeah, but those are, those are the, the real key points. [00:15:35] Another one too, craig, is to make sure that the box is well ventilated. It has to have ventilation holes throughout the box. It's best to have 'em on the floor so any liquid that does get in there can go through as well as on the side, so you can get a breeze through there. [00:15:55] Size also is very important. If you can think about having eight of those little barn outlets with two parents in there, you need a big box and for them to really thrive. [00:16:10] The larger the box, the better. The I've seen some boxes that are so small that it just, it gives the owl outlets less of a chance because they feel that they have to fight to survive a little more when there's not enough space. And I've heard of other owletes pushing other owletes out of the box just to increase their chances of survival. You know, it's kind of one of those survival of the fittest things. So the more room they have, the better it is for everyone. [00:16:47] Craig Macmillan: How big is appropriate? [00:16:49] Bob Peak: I would say probably three feet by two feet, to three feet, and probably two to three feet tall. [00:16:58] Craig Macmillan: Oh, okay. That's a lot bigger than most of the boxes. I see. Yeah. [00:17:01] Bob Peak: They are, they're much bigger. We've looked at a lot of other facilities that rescue barn owls. [00:17:08] We've even gone over to England. They have a a, a program with their owls as well. They had one of the more interesting boxes. it had on the outside a platform. Purchase basically. So these young ones can get out there and see the world, test their wings and then get right back inside if they need to. [00:17:29] Much bigger boxes, much heavier to work with. Again, that was the thing that we found. We, it was just a heavy box, but it was exceptional. But it was big. And they need to be cleaned. So any box that's built needs to have an access port to where you can get into it every couple years and clean out the droppings which need to be done very carefully, because again, as you know, some animal droppings can cause us harm. So you wanna make sure you wear a mask. [00:18:01] Craig Macmillan: Right. [00:18:02] Bob Peak: Again there's all kinds of issues and that, or, discussions about having a perch on the outside or ledge on the outside of that box. [00:18:12] It's nice because they can get out there, have a chance of getting out and getting right back in and not falling to the ground. That perch also is a chance for a great horned owl to come over and get itself on there as well, or on any of the little. Ledges that you built. [00:18:32] The key to all of this is the size of that entry hole. That entry hole cannot be bigger than about five and a half inches, really, five to five and a half inches any bigger than that. You're gonna a, a great horned l be able to get in and then, and it's just, it's not good. [00:18:50] Craig Macmillan: Right. So the, horned owl is a predator [00:18:53] my. It is, you wouldn't think, you know, owl to owl stuff like that. But yeah, it is. They are probably one of the more other than traffic fatalities, it's the, great horned owl [00:19:06] They are very aggressive. They know where these things live. They're very smart. The great horned owl, and again. If you get a young one out on a perch and it's there, it's, it could be could be done. [00:19:20] I have seen, 'cause I've been to a lot of vineyards in the area and I've seen a lot of large holes in these boxes and I actually went into one and it, it was occupied by great horned owl. it laid eggs in the box. [00:19:38] Oh wow. [00:19:39] Bob Peak: So. Well that is something too about owls. Is they don't make nests. [00:19:45] , the great horned owl will and barn owl will find a cavity. The great horn owl's, not a cavity nester, but they'll take an old hawks nest or eagle nest or something and make it their own. And then they tend to get into trouble because they're usually using a nest that isn't in that good of a shape. [00:20:04] Craig Macmillan: Hmm. What are some other things about sighting of boxes? We, we know not close to a road. We know the direction of the, the, of the opening. What are some things that will encourage the bar nows to nest there based on their other behavior? [00:20:19] Bob Peak: I, I think that you just have, to know, about approximately how many acres you have and you want to place a box about every five acres. You can actually have more boxes depending on how much food you have for them, but anywhere between five to 10 acres per box. Again, with the parameters of facing these, being the correct size and everything. So if you have a 50 acre property, you're looking at anywhere between oh five to 10 boxes on that property. [00:20:54] Craig Macmillan: And something that. I had heard was that it's good to have them near a tree. So that they have someplace that they can land right away when they come out of the box. Is that true? [00:21:05] Bob Peak: Yeah. I, we, we've experimented with that Absolutely. Again that's a more natural setting for them where they would be in the the hollow of a tree and come out and possibly be on a branch. Absolutely. I like that. I like that better than being on a pole. [00:21:24] As long as you still have access to the clean out and, and isn't too, you know, dangerous for someone to get up there. Yeah. I like that better than being on a pole without a [00:21:34] Craig Macmillan: Well actually having it in a tree. [00:21:37] Bob Peak: yes, [00:21:37] Craig Macmillan: Oh, okay. Because what I had been told was that you'd want to have one because of the horn dial. You have one on a pole, but have it close to a tree where they can just shoot out and land on a branch and look around and see if there's a threat. [00:21:51] But you say, actually put it in the tree [00:21:55] Bob Peak: it in the tree. [00:21:56] Craig Macmillan: fascinating. That's really interesting. [00:21:58] The way that I met you is you were looking. For clutches to, how should we say, transplant? Some some outlets that, That you folks had. And I learned that barn owls are one of the few raptors That will actually foster outlets from other clutches. That's true. [00:22:18] Bob Peak: That that is correct, Craig. Very good. Good research. Yes. We found that the barn owls were exceptional foster parents, which really gives those guys a chance to make it. [00:22:31] We found out that like you mentioned, the hawks and others just really don't do it. In fact, it would be dangerous to even attempt in some of the species. [00:22:41] One of our, original founders of Pacific Wildlife Care, Kelly was very successful in well all. Many of the things that she does for Pacific Wildlife Care, but she was able to get a red shoulder, a female hawk, to foster young red shoulder hawks for many, many, many years, and gave many of those a chance that wouldn't have a chance. The, the quite amazing I lost my train of thought. [00:23:13] Craig Macmillan: Well, we were talking about fostering and what I had learned from you was you were looking at the clutch that we had at niner, and apparently you, you need to match. The foster bird to the family in terms of its age and development, is that correct. [00:23:32] Bob Peak: That that is correct. Do you want to throw that young one in where there's other young and where there aren't adolescents? I. To where it's gonna have a chance to get some food. [00:23:43] Another thing that one of the other parameters for finding a foster box, you know, a barnell box is The number in there. If there's already five in there, it would be hard for me to put a one or possibly two in there and put that much added stress on the parent. To feed it, and we really can't ensure that that young one's gonna get fed with that many in the box. [00:24:11] I look for one that has maybe three, two, or three, and that additional one or two outlets is not going to stress the parents and the other young ones. But yes, you, you try to match up with age and size as well. [00:24:30] Craig Macmillan: You had mentioned that a nesting pair might have multiple clutches during a year and of different sizes, and if I, remember correctly, that has to do with the availability of resources. [00:24:42] Bob Peak: Yeah, absolutely. Craig. I have found over the years you know, we've the living on the central coast, it's feast and famine with the rain as well. [00:24:53] And I've seen years we're going around to different wineries. There might be 15 boxes and 12 or 13 or 14 of 'em are occupied. I've also. Gone around different seasons and hit 30 boxes and only two of them were occupied. That's how bad the food situation was. [00:25:16] Where we get into a pinch with our fostering and the barn owls finding a home for 'em is that we have a lot of farmers and ranchers in the Paso area. And a lot of 'em , get that hay. Some of the best hay you can get is out of Oregon and they bring a lot of that alfalfa and hay down. And when they're in the moving those bales around, after the farmer gets a, a load they discover that there's owl outlets in the hay bales. We receive a lot of outlets through the bales of hay that are shipped to us here. Locally from outta state, and those are the ones that we must have a foster box for because there's no chance of ever reuniting with their original parents. [00:26:07] Craig Macmillan: How do they end up in there? How do they end up in the hay? [00:26:10] Bob Peak: Oh, well, , imagine a big, giant stack of hay, 15 feet tall and you know, it sat there for months they'll, you know, there's little spots where they can get in and. It's quite nice for a nest. The they'll also use, palm trees and things of that nature where they can get in there. Yeah, so it's quite common for 'em to get into hay? bales [00:26:33] Craig Macmillan: What conditions overall, we've talked about a couple of different things, but like in the, in the grand scheme, what are the kinds of conditions that they're gonna be looking for in a, in a nesting box? I. [00:26:45] Bob Peak: as far as the owls and owls [00:26:47] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. So the, So when the nesting pair, is it, does the male find the nest and then attract the female or the other way around? [00:26:55] Or do they call up some kind of a bird, bird box realtor and go look at different, look at look at different spots and say, I like this one better than that one. Or [00:27:04] Bob Peak: that's a good question. I think it's more the female you know, they have that nesting instinct. 'cause they're gonna be laying the eggs. And I think that it's just, it's more like any, any female would tell you it's, it's a feel. it. feels good this place. And they don't tend to wander off very far from when, where they were born. [00:27:28] So this place has felt good to her for a while. A lot of times they'll use the same box over every single year. So that's why, again, it's nice to you know, you could even add boxes depending on, you know, just how many boxes are occupied. You can tell if you, if you've got 15 boxes and 13 or 14 of 'em are occupied, you could probably put more boxes on your property. [00:27:55] Craig Macmillan: In. Interesting. Yeah, I've seen that myself in vineyards where there'll be a one box located in just a spot. Doesn't seem to be very interesting to me or anything special. And the ground below it is just littered with, with pellets and bones and skulls and it is been going on for years, obviously. And then you go down 50 yards and there's nothing like the box doesn't look like the box has ever been in inhabited. [00:28:21] Bob Peak: Very true. [00:28:23] Craig Macmillan: And, it just has to do with kind of where they came from and they like to come back to the same box. I, think that's interesting. [00:28:30] Bob Peak: And, and it's more of a feel too, again of, of what's around, is there a wire that they have to dodge? Is there a tree? They might have seen a great horn owl over there in that other spot. Yeah. There, there, there's no telling what has, but mainly that nesting instinct drives that female to that box. [00:28:51] Craig Macmillan: Are there particular conditions you think that are like big, big red flags? You mentioned the presence of barn ows. You mentioned is there a wire? Are there definitely some situations where if I'm gonna place a box I, can look around and kind of go, yeah, it's probably not the best spot [00:29:05] Bob Peak: I, I think the key is what we, we, we were just talking about with wires, anything that's gonna get them tangled up. Sometimes the I've seen netting in trees. To keep reptiles even out, and you want to avoid placing a box around there. But I think the main thing is again, where most fatalities occur are close to the road. Keep them away from the road. That, that, that, that's really the most important. [00:29:32] Craig Macmillan: Something that I heard that I don't know is true was that when you, there are two things. [00:29:38] One, there's the question of whether you should paint the box or not, [00:29:42] and then two, that they won't come and nest unless the boxes had a chance to weather for a year or so. Are either of those true? [00:29:52] Bob Peak: , we've talked about that the painting on the outside of the box is fine. Throw up some white on there to you know, kind of keep it from getting too hot, but you don't want to paint the inside. The paint is fumey. The chicks could pick at it with their beaks. So there's all kinds of reasons why you wouldn't want it on the inside, but certainly on the outside. Yes. [00:30:17] You also want to avoid wood that has particular odors. There can be some wood that is very, very pungent cedars and things like that. And you want to be careful about that. So just a regular pine or regular fir box. And I think there's one that's preferable to another, but I'm not sure what that is. Pine versus fir. I could find out though. [00:30:44] Craig Macmillan: Well what, what about just basic plywood? [00:30:47] Bob Peak: Yeah. Well that's made out of a, usually a fir or a pine. [00:30:51] Craig Macmillan: Hmm. [00:30:52] Bob Peak: Exactly. [00:30:54] You can run that whitewash on the outside give it the vent holes. That's really the only only parameters. [00:31:03] Craig Macmillan: Are there other things that a grower can do to make an nesting box more attractive? I. [00:31:08] Bob Peak: I, I don't really have a mailbox out front or maybe a, you know, welcome some welcome home [00:31:15] Craig Macmillan: Just supply some gophers right in front of the box. [00:31:18] Bob Peak: yeah, maybe some gophers hanging outside now that might do it. No, not really. I think again, it's just a matter of need and a matter of availability. [00:31:30] Craig Macmillan: Right are there, are there other birds that compete for the nesting habitat, the naturally occurring habitat, [00:31:39] Bob Peak: As far as, [00:31:41] Craig Macmillan: I've heard that kestrels can be a competitor. [00:31:43] Bob Peak: yeah, kestrels are cavity nesters. That's a fact. But I think there's so many more options for them. They're much smaller. I. And there's so many little nooks and crannies and trees and other things like that to where most of the times, , I've not seen in my practice a kestrel in a barn owl box. I have seen great horns in there, but not kestrels. [00:32:10] Craig Macmillan: Got it. Is there one thing that you would tell a grower? One piece of advice that you would tell a grape grower on this topic? [00:32:20] Bob Peak: Let nature watch over your property. [00:32:23] Craig Macmillan: That's good [00:32:23] Bob Peak: It's been doing it since before you got here, and it'll do it after you've gone. That's how it's always worked. And work with it. And not work against it. [00:32:38] Craig Macmillan: It makes, makes a lot of sense. Where can people find out more about you in wildlife? [00:32:44] Bob Peak: Best is to go to our Facebook page or our webpage at pacificwildlifecare.org. Facebook page is great because there's a lot of videos and pictures. If you have children, it's wonderful because we have release videos there. [00:33:03] They can click on different links once they get to our Facebook page, find out ways to get involved. We're always, again, we're a 501(c)3 nonprofit, so like all of those, we're always looking for two things, people and money. So there's gonna be plenty of opportunity for people to get involved in both ways there on our websites. [00:33:26] And we have a lot of really, really wonderful things coming up. With this new facility there we're, really quite excited. [00:33:33] They can also call us at 805-543-WILD. That's really more of a, you know, a rescue line. But if you have general questions and you want to know more, you can please call them and they'll help you out in any way you want. [00:33:51] Craig Macmillan: That's fantastic. And actually I, do have one more question just occurred to me. If I do come along and find some outlets, they're out of the box, clearly they're not able to fly or they're not ready to go. , how do I handle that? [00:34:07] Bob Peak: Excellent. Thank you for bringing that up. That's an excellent question, Craig. [00:34:11] Best thing to do is to realize that. These young little outlets, as young as they look and as innocent as they look, they've got some talons on them. So you always want to avoid getting your hands near, near their, their their talents. [00:34:29] But the most important thing with a young one that falls out is to keep them warm. I would place them inside a box, put some bedding down or something in there to let them get snuggled into it. And call Pacific Wildlife Care, our hotline, and we'll have someone out there asap to get this guy give them a chance, but keep them warm and sheltered. For the night. You might have to hold them overnight, but as long as they're warm they'll be fine. And to not feed there's no need to give the animals any food. [00:35:04] Craig Macmillan: And, we have listeners around the nation and around the world, and I would imagine that there are similar organizations located in every state and the union. And so just do a little research And, find who your local people are. Because I was doing research on this myself preparing for the interview, And, I was really impressed by , the network really of wildlife rehabilitation globally around the world. I think there's actually an international association, if I remember right. [00:35:30] Bob Peak: Yeah. And thanks for bringing that up. We can't do this by ourselves. That's why we need our volunteers. We need other organizations as you mentioned. [00:35:41] We find that so many times when we have gotten in a pinch, we have relied on the Ojai raptor center. They have been invaluable as far as us being able to bring them animals that , we weren't able to take care of, but they are. [00:35:58] So if they can't do it, we can, or vice versa. It's an important network that one way or another we'll get it done. 'cause we have, volunteers that will travel anywhere to take care of these animals. [00:36:12] Craig Macmillan: That's fantastic. [00:36:14] Well. This was a great conversation. I, like I said, I met you when you were looking for a place to foster some owls, and it was just really, really, fascinating to me, having been around this topic for a very, very long time. the barn owl is kind of the mascot of vineyard team. It's on a lot of our, a lot of our stuff. And so we've been, we've been following this for a long time and I learned more from you in about an hour. Then I had learned in the preceding several decades, let's just put it. that way, several decades. And I, And I, really appreciated that. It was really, really great. And I really appreciate you being a guest. [00:36:50] Again, our guest today was Bob Peak. He's a volunteer with Civic Wildlife Care in san Luis Obispo County. And yeah, just thanks for being on the podcast. It's a really real pleasure. [00:37:01] Bob Peak: Thank you Craig. And again, thank you, for this opportunity. Again, please check out Pacific Wildlife Care. you'll love it. [00:37:08] [00:37:12] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. [00:37:13] Today's podcast was brought to you by Helena Agri Enterprises. Founded in 1957, Helena Agri Enterprises has grown to be one of the nation's foremost agricultural and specialty formulators and distributors In the United States products and services offered include crop protection products. Fertilizer specialized nutrients, seeds, and precision ag services and software. Helena's overriding goal is to help its customers succeed. This is achieved with a unique combination of dedicated and knowledgeable people, unique and useful products, and the latest technical knowledge. The company defines its own success through the success of its customers. [00:37:56] Make sure you check out the show notes. For links to Pacific Wildlife Care, the barn owl Trust in the United Kingdom, UC Davis' Raptor Center, plus Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast episodes 58 barnells 84 Falconry Bird Abatement, and 118 managing rodent pests and vineyards with integrated pest management. [00:38:18] If you liked the show, you can do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts at vineyardteam.org/podcast, and you could reach us at podcast@vineyardteam.org. [00:38:31] Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard team.   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

As biological technologies continue to advance, many growers are exploring how best to integrate them into their farming operations. Nevada Smith, Head of Marketing North America, and Robert Blundell, Research Plant Pathologist, both with Pro Farm Group, highlight the role of biological pesticides and biofertilizers in sustainable winegrowing. Biological pesticides, derived from microbial sources or natural products such as plants, fungi, bacteria, or nematodes, play a crucial role in pest management by inhibiting or delaying growth or directly causing pest mortality. Understanding which biological products to use and when to apply them within an integrated pest management system is essential for maximizing their effectiveness. Biofertilizers, which enhance plant health and resilience to abiotic stresses, are another key tool for sustainable viticulture. Nevada and Robert discuss the growing importance of these technologies in improving soil health and supporting long-term agricultural productivity. Resources:         REGISTER: 5/9/25 Biochar Field Day 117: Grapevine Mildew Control with UV Light 123: What is Happening in Biologicals for Pest Management and Plant Health 266: Soft Pesticide Trial: Powdery Mildew, Downy Mildew, Botrytis, and Sour Rot Healthy Soils Playlist Integrated Pest Management (IPM) Principles ProFarm What are Biopesticides? Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: As biological technologies continue to advance, many growers are exploring how to best integrate them into their farming operations. [00:00:13] Welcome to Sustainable Wine, growing with Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, executive director. [00:00:23] In today's podcast, Craig McMillan, critical resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates. With Longtime SIP certified Vineyard in the first ever SIP certified winery speaks with Nevada Smith Head of Marketing North America and Robert Blundell research plant pathologist, both with Pro Farm Group. Together, they highlight the role of biological pesticides and bio fertilizers in sustainable wine. Growing [00:00:49] biological pesticides are derived from microbial sources or natural products such as plants, fungi, bacteria, or nematodes. They play a crucial role in pest management by inhibiting or delaying growth or directly causing pest mortality [00:01:04] Understanding which biological products to use and when to apply them within an integrated pest management system is essential for maximizing their effectiveness. [00:01:13] Bio fertilizers, which enhance plant health and resilience to abiotic stresses are another key tool for sustainable viticulture, Nevada and Robert discussed the growing importance of these technologies and improving soil health and supporting long-term agricultural productivity. [00:01:30] If you're gonna be in Paso Robles, California on May 9th, 2025. Join us at Niner Wine Estates for a Biochar Field day. This interactive morning features live demonstrations and expert discussions on the benefits of biochar for soil health and sustainable farming. Learn how to integrate biochar into your farming operations through practical insights and hands-on experiences. Go to vineyard team.org/events or look for the link in the show notes to get registered. [00:02:00] Now let's listen in.   [00:02:05] Craig Macmillan: My guest today are Nevada Smith. He is Head of Marketing North America and Robert Blundell, who's a research plant pathologist, both with Pro Farm Group. Thank you for being on the podcast [00:02:15] Rob Blundell: Thank you, Craig. [00:02:16] Nevada Smith: Thank you. [00:02:18] Craig Macmillan: Today we're gonna be talking about bio pesticides and we might as well start with the the basics. What is a biological pesticide? Robert, why don't you start? [00:02:26] Rob Blundell: Yeah, that's a good question, Craig. And and you know, honestly, it's. So when I first was kind of thinking about this, it's not as simple explanation as you might think. It's a constantly kind of evolving term and depending on who you are asking, you can get a, a very different answer. And it's, it's really kind of this large umbrella term. [00:02:42] . It's kind of a microbially based product or natural product typically derived from a plant, fungi, bacteria, nematode, you know. That pretty much has the ability to inhibit or delay the growth or, you know, cause the death of a pest. [00:02:56] And you know, with the term biological pesticide, pesticide being extremely broad whether it's, you know, insect, fungi, even rodent, you know, rodent sides, things like that. So yeah, again, it's a very broad term and different, different grooves, different commodities are gonna kind of have their own explanation. [00:03:09] Even the EU has a different, I think definition versus the EPA as well. So it's an evolving, evolving term. [00:03:15] Craig Macmillan: What about you, Nevada? Do you have anything to add to that? [00:03:17] Nevada Smith: I'm kind of with Robert, it's almost like sustainability. What does that mean? It means to me, I get to keep farming every year. But I think for everyone else it might have different definitions. And I think basically the, the premise is, is it's biologically based. It's based on a living organism, something that we can repeat, regrow, and, you know, the societal part of it, bio pesticide, it means it's acting or killing or helping mitigate pest. For proform have a biologically based strategy. And so we, that's what we deliver is those type of tools. [00:03:50] Craig Macmillan: One of the major pets on grapes is powdery mildew. Around the globe. Probably the major pest overall, I would say fungal disease. I have been seeing a lot of increase in the use of bio pesticides specifically for powdery mildew, some in organic systems, some in more traditional sustainability oriented systems. [00:04:09] What kind of mechanisms are there out there in the biological world for managing powdery mildew and how does that, how do they work? Nevada, do you wanna start? [00:04:18] Nevada Smith: Yeah, so for biological pesticides, there's sort of different categories and I'll even. Even throwing some sort of organic pesticides as well into this whole mix. I think as a grower or a wine processor, you have a choice and it's like, either I'm going conventional, I'm looking to maximize my value proposition on my vineyard or my process my wines. And so one of the ways we really think about this is how do you integrate bio pesticides into the overall spray for bio mildew, like our winemaker at our place they always say, Hey, if it's more than 3% power mildew it's a no go. It's a bad day for us. And so for us to take the risk on our farm. For a biologicial pesticide, we had to have some data to really get us excited about it. [00:05:02] Overall, we wanna see performance. We need to see at least seven to 10 days. And I think that's maybe the biggest challenge a powerdy mildew issue is depending on what sort of climate and what variety of grapes you're growing is how long does it take me to get across the vineyard? [00:05:17] It's really what it comes down to. [00:05:18] And you know, maybe from a pathology point of view, Robert has some perspective. [00:05:24] Rob Blundell: The way we want to kind of think about powdery mildew is it's, you know, it's, it's always gonna be there. It's gonna be present. And biologicals, when used in the right way, can be a fantastic you know, tool in the arsenal. For, for growers or farmers against a deadly pathogen like this. [00:05:38] Growers really need to kind of consider the goal of using a biological, because there's so many different mechanisms of action of a biological, I mean, it can be live, it can be live, it can be the, you know, the spent fermentation product of a biological, which is gonna work very differently versus an actual liable organism you're gonna put in your field. [00:05:53] So kind of having a clear mindset from the, from the start is gonna be crucial to knowing. What kind of biological do you use? And also importantly, kind of when to use it as well. Because you can have drastically different outcomes based on like the time of your, you know, the time of venue production and then, and then the time of the season as well. [00:06:09] But yes yeah, ultimately there's broad, broad mechanism of actions. So if we're putting something on there live you know, you know, with something like powder mildew, this, pathogen functions because it attaches onto leaves. So we have these overwintering structures called cassia. [00:06:24] So these are basically the dormant structures that are gonna help powerdy mildew, survive. That's why it's been around for so long. That's why it's, it comes back every year. So it basically shuts down, it's fungal mycelium into these dormant hard structures. And then every year it basically reawakens around spring when we get the rainfall. [00:06:39] So we're gonna get ASCO spores. These are specialized spore structures within that kind of dormant structure. They get released out. So, you know, with the, with the weather coming in this week, that's gonna be, huge out there right now. So we're gonna get the release of those spores. [00:06:51] They're gonna land on that leaf. So really that's kind of our prime target of having protection is when they're gonna be landing and then adhesing to that leaf. So with something like a biological, if we can get that onto that leaf and then, you know, that's kind of our line of defense really. We want to be setting like a line of defense early in the season. [00:07:08] Know we have a product regalia. So that gets on there. It has these antimicrobial compounds, which the first point of contact is gonna. Prevent you know, it's gonna help mitigate that interaction between the leaf and the pathogen acts as kind of that medium layer. And then it's also gonna boost the plant's natural defense. [00:07:24] So how powdery mildew you kind of functions it. Once it gets on that leaf, it has a very specialized structure. Call it, they would call it a whole story or an appium, depending on where you are in the world and specialized structure that will kind of get through that cell wall, under that cell membrane and then sucks out the nutrients from the leaf so we can get a biological on the early to boost that plant defense, boost those, you know, defense fight hormone pathways. [00:07:46] We're gonna kind of mitigate that as a an initial point of contact. And then hopefully that's gonna set us off for a you know, a good season after that. But the time, yeah, the timing is definitely crucial. [00:07:55] Nevada Smith: I think to add to Robert's point is really to start your season off right and clean. So that's why as growers or as winemakers, you choose to use some sulfur to kind of mitigate, which is not necessarily a bio pesticide, but it could be organic, you know, depending on what your source of there. But those tools to me, are foundational for getting a clean start if you start bad, and it's gonna be a hell of a year all year long. [00:08:20] And I think that's the biggest challenge of bio pesticide uses overall is. Where do they fit, what growers they fit in? And it's not a solution for all, for sure. I mean, if you're growing Chardonnay or Pinot Noir on the Sonoma Coast in a foggy bank off of Bodega Bay, tough times, you know? But if you're in Pastor Robles, maybe in the Napa Valley in the valley where it's a little bit drier, you go in cab. Issue. You probably can integrate a nice bio pesticide program into it, and I think that's the secret. [00:08:58] Craig Macmillan: You mentioned regalia. What is the actual ingredient in regalia? What does it come from? [00:09:03] Rob Blundell: Yeah, so for Regalia the active ingredient comes from giant knotweed, so Ray Nectria. So that's a giant knotweed extract essentially that's been procured and then optimized in r and d and then applied typically as a folia spray for, for grape vines. [00:09:17] Craig Macmillan: And then the plant reacts to that, and that's what increases the plant defense mechanism. [00:09:22] Rob Blundell: Yeah, yeah, pretty much. There's kind of a few, few tiers of how, you know, Regilia kind of functions. So yeah, so we do that kind of initial application pretty much as soon as you, you have any green tissue, you know, really that's a great time to kind of get that on there. And then so the plant is gonna respond to that so typically a plant, defence pathway. [00:09:39] We have salicylic acid, so that is a key phyto hormones. So phyto hormones are kind of the driving force behind the plant defense. And this is very, you know, this is typical for all kind of pathogens, all kind of crops really. So you're gonna have a pathogen interact and we'll have its initial interaction with a plant. [00:09:55] And then you're gonna get this initial, like, response straight away from a plan. It's gonna be, Hey, I, my defenses are up. I, I sense this as a foreign agent. Basically I need to, you know, protect myself. So you get this upregulation of fighter hormones. They're very regulated. Pathways that then have these cascading effects to ultimately kind of therefore have longer term defense. [00:10:14] So you have an upregulation of fighter hormones. This is gonna signal to the plant that, Hey, I need to strengthen my cell walls, for example. So I'm gonna send more liening cell lignin being a crucial component a cell. wall . That's something we see upregulated as a result of regalia. So we get that increase in phyto hormones, we'll get lignin sent to the cell wall. [00:10:32] We get an increase in antioxidants as well to kinda help break down the pathogen as well. Limiteds effects we get polyphenols various other kind of antimicrobials as a result. So we have kind of direct effects, but then crucially with regalia, so we're gonna have the plant initially respond to its application, and then when the pathogen does. [00:10:50] Come around for a, an attack. That plan already kind of is, is heightened its responses, it's ready for it, so it's gonna be a faster kind of response time and therefore what we kind of consider more of a, a longer term defense response. [00:11:02] Craig Macmillan: Are there other modes of action, perhaps ones that are live? [00:11:05] Nevada Smith: Yeah. And that, I think that's a great point. Is there, you know, the, the bacillus category has been a big category the last dozen years or so. And this could be anything waiting from a bacillus subtles to bacillus Emli. There's other bacilli out there too. And I think they're more of an integrated approach. [00:11:22] So I conventional our farm vineyards. We're gonna just rotate it in there. So just like if you're straight organic or you're straight bio pesticide, it'd be a regalia, as an example, rotated with a bacillus product. We happen to have one as well, a very nice one called Sargus. But there's other great solutions out there in the marketplace today. There's other living organisms as well. There's some products in the Streptomyces categories as well. They're used in grow rotation, but I think to me as a grower and as a winemaker myself. I'm just looking for integration, IPM strategy all the way along. And depend on how, what your guard rails are for farming that would dictate what your options are overall. [00:12:07] Craig Macmillan: So, , to you, Robert, , how do these actually work? Like bacillus subtilis and things? [00:12:11] How do they actually either prevent or treat powdery mildew in grape. [00:12:15] Rob Blundell: Yeah, good question. So for Bacillus with Star in particular so we're actually not looking to treat powdery mildew kind of outright with this product itself. That's more where regalia is gonna come as a benefit. So actually Bacillus is great for something like botrytis in grapes. So, and this is really, really where we can kind of combine regalia and stargus together for a very effective program. [00:12:34] Kind of a one-two punch. So we, you have a live bacillus product. So we have spores that are gonna colonize a surface. So whether that's being the soil, you know, microbia the leaves or the berries, and with botrytis infecting berries causing damage, necrotic lesions in those berries, that's where something like stargus , a bacillus product can be applied to those berries to effectively colonize it. [00:12:55] And again, kind of creating like a nice. Kind of shield essentially from pretty much all fungal pathogens work the same. They have to attach, then they have to penetrate to essentially, hold on. So if we can kind of form a physical, kind of physical barrier, that's gonna be great. So for a lot of the Bacillus products they produce a suite of antimicrobials. [00:13:13] So star for our company we have a suite of antimicrobials that produces, so we have things like Itur, Phin, these are all really good antimicrobials. They're gonna have a direct effect on it. So those spores will be able to, you know, colonize the berry, for example, and then help Yeah. Prevent prevent powerdy mildew So you have this live culture essentially that's on the grapes and it's producing compounds, and that's where the, the antimicrobial comes in or the antifungal comes in. [00:13:40] Nevada Smith: Yes. And. [00:13:47] So there's two registrations from an EPA standpoint. There's the live bacteria count, which people are familiar with from back in the day when there was bts, right cells ths for worm protection. And so we measure the CFUs, which is a colony forming unit. So the bacteria, and there's a minimum threshold that we have for our product as well as anybody else that registers their bacteria. Just sort of a quality control thing for the grower to know this is the level we produce. What we. Seeing the production for our solution is really around the chemical compounds being created in the fermentation process, this lipopeptides cycle. And so that's what's important to know that there's some differentiation. [00:14:25] And I always use the example, I'm a huge basketball fan and you know, there's a difference between Michael Jordan and myself. I'm not at his level. And so not all bacilli are created equal, but they all do have some performance values for them. And obviously, you know, the more you can look into science and whether it be uc, extension and the Gubler Eskalen models and local trial researchers will give you the value proposition each of these products brings to you. [00:14:50] Craig Macmillan: Now, this is something that I, I don't think I've heard before and I wanna make sure that I heard it correctly. So, some of the protection is actually coming from things that are being produced during the fermentation production of the bacteria themselves. And so these are side things. And then that makes it into the final product. [00:15:05] Nevada Smith: Yeah, that's actually the most important thing on foliar. So holistically for bacillus, and this is a very broad brush here unless you're in a tropical environment like bananas in. Columbia or Costa Rica, you're not growing more spores on the leaf surface. You might have that happen a little bit depending on sort of your micro environments. What you really want is coverage and then that eradicates. [00:15:29] The way that the the bacillus really works, it really pokes holes into the cell wall of power mildew. So that's, and it just kinda leaks out and dies. And so it's botrytis , and or powder mildew. That's the major effects that it has on these pest diseases. [00:15:43] But in those rare examples, I'll tell you, we've seen some results of our products being used in crops and tropical environments. If it can grow, it's creating more value. Now let's talk about something different. You put bacillus. Sargus into the ground in a soil treatment. It has tremendous effects on colonizing around the roots. [00:16:01] And so that's where bacillus is actually known in its natural environment into the soil profile. So that's where we really see that the one two value. Now, that's not what we're using it for in grapes. Grapes, is for foliar control of. And mild diseases. But we have many other crops that we use bacillus for like corn, for root management and prolification around the diseases down there. [00:16:27] Craig Macmillan: Do you have anything to add to that, Robert?  [00:16:29] Rob Blundell: Yeah, so that's, yeah, excellent points from Nevada. So yeah, kind, kind of getting, talking about how we can use bacillus, you know, actually to go into the soil. So something like nematodes, you know, that's, that's a huge issue in grapes always has been. It's where we have, you know, root stocks engineered over the years to have, you know, nematode resistant root stocks. [00:16:43] Again, not, not kind of the primary purpose of what we'd be looking to use stargus, and vineyards, but again, having a soil colonizer is fantastic. You know, a lot of the. The majority of diseases, especially in like the row crops, they're coming from the below ground. You know, you've got the pythium and lettuce. [00:16:57] You've got like sclero, things like that, huge kind of soil-borne pathogens. So again, having something that you can add to the soil, you know, the soil already has its own fantastic suite of, naturally present. You know, bacteria, fungi, that's, you know, like Nevada said, that's what we got ab baus from, stargus from. [00:17:12] So we're just kind of adding to that to kind of help boost the fight. And we can always kind of think of the interaction between pathogens and plants as kind of this arms race. There's a ways, you know, the pathogen kind of gets ahead by evolving slightly, and then you have the ho response from the plant and then the, the microbiome as well. [00:17:27] So we're just trying to kind of tip the scales and our balance is how a good way to kind of think of biologicals as well. And I think as you were mentioning, kind of the, the fermentation process, and that's where we get our microbials from. [00:17:37] Every microbe has primary metabolites. That's what's key to basically the survival of a microbe. But then we have secondary metabolites, and these are very highly specialized products that get produced. For bacillus, during that fermentation process, this is a, you know, these are unique metabolites. You know, metabolites are produced by the majority of. Micros, but the in particular can produce these like fantastic suite of very unique metabolites. So that's where the, a non-life product kind of comes into itself as well. By us able to understand what are those metabolites we're producing same fermentation, can we optimize those? And then do we, do we even need a live product as a result of that? [00:18:12] Craig Macmillan: Um, it sounds like this could have a really dramatic impact or role in fungicide resistance management. I. What is that role? Or are we talking about going over completely to biological for a program or are we including in a rotation with other materials? What about organic growing where we have a, a little smaller suite of things that we can use? [00:18:35] Nevada Smith: , I'll start with that if you don't mind. [00:18:36] I think it's a great question and where I see it fitting is most synthetic pesticides for disease control are really affecting the mitochondria on the inside of the dupo. And where I see it fitting is the sort of one, two, I would say contact plus systemic. That's an a de-risk, your resistance management issues. But B, increase the likelihood that those products work better and longer. [00:19:02] So today we position a product like Sargus other bacillus products in the marketplace to be in combination with a. SDHI chemistry, like Luna would be an example of that, or Pristine. We would see those integrated in the cycle of sprays, which is, it's very similar to why you use sulfur with those products as well. [00:19:23] But I think, you know, as a winemaker, I want less sulfur my crop as possible, but obviously I want, as a farmer too, I want it to be clean as can be. So it's kind of this yin and yang overall. [00:19:33] But for resistance management, I think you have to really think about the whole approach. And once again, back guardrails. Of what your restrictions are for you as a farmer and maybe the winemaker working together with them. How do you really get to the. And, you know, I, it's kind of a joke too, but we talked about earlier the word sustainability be very broad. Stroke. Well, I'm wanna farm into the future years. I wanna have that vineyard for a hundred years and not to replant it. So I'm really trying to keep as clean as possible all the time, especially for the over wintering stuff. And so to me early often protection, control contact plus systemic is the approach that we take at our farm as well. [00:20:10] Craig Macmillan: When we say earlier, are we talking bud break, two inches, four leaves?   [00:20:15] Nevada Smith: For powder. Yeah. But then we could debate, you know, on these opsis issues and can cane issues. [00:20:24] Craig Macmillan: When would I wanna put on a bacillus? [00:20:27] Nevada Smith: I would start with a sulfur spray about bud break here, and then kind of rotate back into the bloom time for the first bloom spray, about 50% bloom, more or less. I kind of time it too, and if it's a little later, I'm okay with that. That would be the major time where I get the first shots on and that we, I would start with regalia, for example, just because it's a different mode of action. And then I'd come back with the bacillus here about seven to 10 days later. [00:20:51] Craig Macmillan: And would you then include synthetic materials as well, I'm assuming. [00:20:55] Nevada Smith: Yeah, on our farm we would typically our biggest issue is getting across the, the vineyard. And so we're looking to start off with a synthetic material first, just so we can get a nice, well, sulfur first, sorry. That probably like A-S-D-H-I chemistry. And then I'd start to think about how can I integrate my approaches to, being softer chemistry based through the rest of the season. [00:21:17] Craig Macmillan: Does that make sense to you, Robert? [00:21:19] Rob Blundell: Yes. And actually I'm just gonna jump back a little bit in our conversation. I just add a few more details kind of on this approach as well. So yeah, a little bit earlier, I kinda mentioned this arms race between the pathogen and the host and, you know, the available treatments that we have and really kind of a huge benefit of. Adding a biological, say, into your conventional program or just introducing more biologicals in general for your, your fungicides is you know, as, as Nata was saying, you know, a lot of the conventional chemistry is targeted in that mitochondria. It's a very specialized kind of function. It's there, it does a great job when it works well, but then. [00:21:51] We get pathogen resistance, obviously. So there's kind of two types of resistance. You get qualitative resistance and quantitative. So qualitative is when there is a kind of sudden or abrupt loss in the ability of say, a fungicide to work. And then you have quantitative where it's kind of more of a gradual decline in effectiveness. [00:22:08] And then you get kind of these varying levels of fungicide sensitivity versus that qualitative where you're having either resistant or a sensitive is isolate. And this. It's great. We're talking about grapes and powerdy mildew, 'cause this is one of like, this is like the classic textbook example. We kind of get taught in pathology about this because powerdy mildew, it has these really quick cycling times, produces a number of generations per season, very easily dispersed. [00:22:28] So this is such a high risk kind of category for this fungicide resistance. So again, if we have just a whole range of availabilities in terms of different fungicide options, you know, chemistry, soft chemistry, biologicals various other options, we're just kind of increasing our chances of really. Just well, and one not having any pathogen resistance. [00:22:49] Because again, as soon as you have that, then you have you, you really lose your options for your chemistries. So again, just, you know, introducing a few biologicals here and there, especially for, you know, grapes on the West coast, which is the amount of sprays we're having to do in other states where you have less sprays, you can kind of get away with kind of not considering your approach a little bit more. [00:23:05] You don't have to kind of. Do your frack checks as much because maybe you're only doing one or two sprays. But here we have to be very, very concerned with our, you know, what products we're using and then at what timing they're using. So again, just having a biological to really kind of take the pressure off some of those chemistries is a, is a huge a huge, valuable source of preserving the life of your chemistry. [00:23:23] And then have, like Nevada said, you know, having sustainable wines for the years to come. [00:23:28] Craig Macmillan: Actually, that made me think of something. Is there a risk of resistance being developed to biological strategies? [00:23:38] Rob Blundell: Yeah, that's, that's a really good question. So yes. [00:23:41] It's kind of a newer question. Yeah. So again, with a lot of these chemistries being very, very site specific function, all you have to do is have a very small mutation in your, say, powerdy mildew, to overcome that. And typically with biologicals, the typically, I say typically the mode of action is a little bit more broad. [00:23:57] So very rarely are you gonna have an extremely like. , so like a lot of the chemistries buy into certain receptors that their job that do that really well. Biologicals don't tend to do that as much. They're more of a broad spectrum. That's why we see a, like for our fungicides, we see a range of control against a lot of different, you know, powerd mildew, we've got ascomiscies,, Presidio, my seeds, they pretty much do well across a range because they are more broad spectrum. [00:24:19] Not to say that in time we're gonna start to see a decline. It's, you know, again, it's kind of really how we consider using them. And we. Whether we wanna like, fully rely on them or hey, that's, let's, let's use more of a, a combined approach. So again, we just really make that sustainable as well. [00:24:33] So kind of to answer your question definitely it comes with risk but kind of inherently due to the more broad spectrum nature of biologicals, we're not too worried about the kind of resistance that we've seen developed as a result of c chemistries in that very, very specific function of a chemistry. [00:24:48] Craig Macmillan: That makes a lot of sense. I know that you had mentioned you're farming in a more traditional fashion, Nevada, but your products, and obviously I know some folks in the organic area. What role do biologicals play in an organic fungicide program? Nevada? [00:25:03] Nevada Smith: I think it's definitely at the core of your foundation of seeing how you are gonna approach powerdy, mildew and botrytus. Is it a typical, you know, seven spray system, which I'd say it's kind of typical for the northern coast markets or the coastal range. Or if you're in the valley floor are you more in that three to five applications for bio pesticides and, and what timing and how you're approaching those things are critical overall to assessing those on the organic. [00:25:30] You don't have to be just organic. You could be, from a theoretical point of view, you can just choose to be this type of farmer, which is, I want to choose softer chemistries. And I think that's the mixed bag that we deal with with customers, a crop and the crop advisors out there. [00:25:44] Rob Blundell: Yeah, and I was gonna say just to kinda add to that as well. So again, regardless whether you're doing organic or chemistry or biologicals, you know. Really key as well. Foundation is just having good cultural control as well. Something we haven't really touched on today, but again, you can really increase the effectiveness of your biological, your chemistry based on what you're doing in, in the vineyard. [00:26:02] So, you know, things like, you know, canopy thinning, so if you're using say, a biological, you wanna try to colonize those berries, you wanna kind of thin out that kind of piece. You're getting a better spray coverage. You're also gonna, you know, reduce the humidity and that kind of pee of things like mildew you know, effective pruning in dry conditions. [00:26:18] Navar was kind of talking about opsis, some of those canker pathogens. So those grapevine trunk diseases, that is still the most effective way to control a grapevine trunk disease is just to prune under the right conditions. 'cause you need that wound, that pruning wound to heal when it's, you're not gonna get a, let's see, you know, we got that ring coming in this week. [00:26:33] So, grapevine trunk disease is dormant on those on the, on the parts of the vine. They're gonna be airborne. So you need to make sure there's a very good dry window. So again, like cultural practice is always, always key to whatever approach or biologicals or chemicals. [00:26:46] Nevada Smith: I think the add to that, one of the biggest things I remember, I wanna say it's like in 2010, I saw Gubler trials, Gubler, uc, Davis, you know, famous for everything. And he had the trial and all he did was pull leaves. On the bunch closures, and I was like, wow, that looked amazing. And I said, what? What spray did you have on there? [00:27:02] And they're like, nothing. We just pulled leaves and just literally that airflow coming across there, drying out, I assume it was just drying out the spores was amazing. I was like, wow. But then I started doing the cost analysis as a grower. I'm like, I can't send a crew there and pull leaves all the time. So, [00:27:19] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, it's true. I mean, and that's why it's a mix of things. I think. It's integrated pest management. You, you know, you do want to get some airflow through there. You will probably do some canopy management, whether you do shoot thinning or leaf removal. Some of that also helps with coverage. [00:27:32] Right. So using a mix of cultural and chemical or pesticide techniques is probably, probably wise. I'm not a pest control advisor, so I probably shouldn't say that. I. But I think I, you, they're not the first folks that have, have reminded me of that. And sometimes I know that, I think we kind of forget. [00:27:49] I wanna change topics a little bit. There's a, I don't wanna say new, but new to me. Area bio fertilizers a totally different kind of strategy for plant nutrition Nevada. What is a bio fertilizer? What, how do they work? What is it and how does it work? [00:28:05] Nevada Smith: So bio fertilizers can be a multitude of things, but once again, back to bio based on living organisms prior living organisms. We happen to have one that we're just launching this year into the grape industry called Illustra. It's based on this unique technology, UBP. Universal biological platform. I'm not trying to be a billboard ad here, but the reason why I'm bringing it up is it, it's really is a platform, which is interesting about it because it's, it's a technology that we can change and manipulate depending on how we go through the production cycle. And so we're creating tools that are more made for abiotic stresses. [00:28:39] And so we're trying to deal with different stresses that. Crop can deal with. And so right now the core market that we've been using these products , for is like soybeans and corn. [00:28:49] But as we think about the permanent crop markets of grapes, tree nuts, citrus, it's a little bit different as far as cycle and how you approach it. And so what we've seen through the data, these bio fertilizers is really trying to mitigate abiotic stresses. So what we're really mitigating is one, like you, you think about herbicide applications. You kind do a banded application near the tree trunk into about a third of the spray row. That herbicide usually hits that tree trunk. [00:29:14] There is a cause and effect on the grapevine itself. What if you could put a tool down that was sprayed on the same time to mitigate that stress or de-stress it from even how much time and pressure it's having? So. Our product is really one of those tools today that's really focused on mitigating biotic stresses. [00:29:30] Other things I can think about as a farmer is like salinity in the soil. The roots are pushing. You have water issues in California. We all talk about that. How do you mitigate the plant that still maximize the yield? So. Choosing the bio fertilizer today that's really focused on that, not just being a typical, you know, can 17 or un 30 twos based nitrogen based products. [00:29:51] This is something else to bring into the marketplace. They're kind of more niche based, depending on what you're dealing with. But there there's several out there. There's, seaweed extracts would be a big one, right? That people use a lot around farms. There's humic, andic acids, organic acids in general. So those are the kind of the buckets of items today that farmers are choosing for bio fertilizers. [00:30:14] Rob Blundell: Hmm. Yeah. And I can yeah, touch a little bit more on the, on the UBP illustrate product as well in terms of kind of how, how that really functions. And as Navar said, it's, you know, helping bounce back after, say, some herbicide damage, promoting that early season boost in biomass. [00:30:27] So, you know, a product like this, this UBP will basically kind of. Inducing cell division. So in you know, increasing mitochondrial activity, more cell division essentially leads to more chlorophyll, more photosynthesis graded by a mass production. And it's actually done by acidifying the cell wall. So we acidify a cell wall. You get more what we have these, there's proton pumps on these cell wall. [00:30:48] We're basically pumping in more protons, increasing the rate of that cell division. So we're basically yeah, boosting that in ocean season biomass. Therefore having that. You know, quicker resilience to say, you know, abiotic stresses like no said, whether it's salinity, salt, drought, water, things like that. [00:31:02] So yeah, numerous, numerous benefits of some of these fertilizers. [00:31:07] Craig Macmillan: Which actually talking about antibiotic stress, that it reminds me of something. I want to apply it to this, but I also want to go back. If you're using a live material, a bacillus or something, or if you have a, a bio fertilizer that may is are there living things in bio fertilizers. [00:31:22] Nevada Smith: There can be, [00:31:24] uh [00:31:24] Craig Macmillan: be. Okay. [00:31:25] Nevada Smith: We don't have anything in ours today, but I think there are, let's call the word impregnated Fertilizers. With living organisms. It could be trico, dermas, it could be other things, bacillus. And those are good, good tools to use. [00:31:39] The hard part is like, you know, now we start to open the can of worms around like compost tea, like what's in there. And I think that's the biggest challenge that growers, those things do work as a whole. But then you start to run into the quality assurance, quality control. And I think that's where companies invest in the bio pesticide industry are really trying to. Tell the story and not just be perceived as snake oils and saying, Hey, replicated work we measure to this level, like CFU content and here's what we expect results to be consistently. [00:32:08] And this is sort of the shelf life issues and we're kind of getting as a, you know, the world evolves. I think there's just this environmental things that people choose to do. And I think, you know, everything works. Just a question of how you integrate it into your own farming systems. [00:32:24] Craig Macmillan: So speaking of environmental factors and antibiotic stress one thing that's occurred to me is that if I have something that's that's out there, either that's living or maybe maybe a fragile compound, how do things like drought and heat affect these materials in the field? [00:32:38] Rob Blundell: Yeah. Yeah, very good question. I think historically that was always kind of. What people thought of the negative of biologicals were like, well, is only gonna work under certain conditions. You know, where, where have you tested it? So yeah, it's, it's a good question as well. [00:32:50] It's , case by case dependent you know, certain extremes and temperatures, various conditions as well are gonna have effects on, you know, the, the longevity of that. But we, you know, we try to test it under. There a variety of conditions. And then for particularly something you know, with our fungicides as well for, for the grape industry, you know, these new be tested on a variety of key varietals as well. [00:33:10] You know, it's, Hey, it might work for Chardonnay but not for Sauvignon Blanc. So that's important to evaluate as well, rather than just bring a product to market that like you, it's only gonna work on very certain aspects of a, of the single industry. [00:33:22] Craig Macmillan: So heat as an example, , you have a fair amount of confidence that I can apply something in the, in the heat if I have a hot, dry condition in the summer that it's not going to. Break down those materials that are there from the fermentation or kill the live organism. We, we think there's a fair amount of resilience here. [00:33:39] Rob Blundell: Yeah, again, definitely gonna be dependent on the, the type of microbe and the type of metabolite that it's producing. But you know, microbes in nature are exposed to these extreme conditions just naturally anyway, you know, so we have epi amplified slipping on the surface of products. So on the surface of. [00:33:54] Structures. So like a grapevine, like a leaf. They're obviously out there and exposed to the elements every single day. And then the soil is a, is a chaotic environment. There's a lot going on in the soil. So microbes are just, you know, extremely resilient in nature themselves. So there's gonna be a, again it's gonna vary depending on, you know, the microbe and, and the product we're using. [00:34:12] But there's good efficacy. [00:34:16] Craig Macmillan: What's the future? What is the future looking like for biological products, living or extra? [00:34:23] Nevada Smith: for the marketing hat on myself, not the farmer side. [00:34:27] It, I think everything's coming down to specialized sprays. And if I had to vision what the features look like to me, it's gonna be about. Seeing robots down the vineyard. They have 18 different things and their little mechanisms and there's, they're just, they're analogizing what's going on in that grape cluster itself. [00:34:44] They're spot spraying three or four things and they're going down the next level. That to me, is where we're gonna get down to the future, where the grapes themselves will naturally grow less chemicals to be used overall. [00:34:54] but if you need to go through and really take care of a problem, you're gonna go through and take care of a problem. And I think that's where it's become very exciting to me. You're gonna put less of a prophylactic spray across all systems, and you're kind of really create some microenvironments where you think that Vine number seven got sprayed a lot. Vine number 21 has not been sprayed all season. Wonder why? Let's go check it out. Let's understand and investigate. [00:35:18] The other big thing I think in grapes that's really interesting from exploratory research and development side for our company is like viruses. Viruses have not been addressed and it's becoming an issue. It's something I want to kind of explore and put on our docket of, you know, assessment stuff and how we can take new technologies to really improve virus transmissions. How do you mitigate once you have a virus? And it still produce that vine for another 10 plus years. So it gets quality and quantity out of it. Those are the kind of things interesting to me. [00:35:50] Craig Macmillan: Robert. [00:35:51] Rob Blundell: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, really good point, Sarah as well. And yeah, viruses in particular is, is something we see about in the grapevine industry. And yeah, often biological companies we're focused on, you know, the, the fungal issues, the bacteria, the, the nematodes. So that's, that's a huge area that really needs some more dedication. [00:36:06] So there's gonna be some great technologies available for that in the future. Yeah, I think to speak to no Nevada's points on kind of the future of it, I think like a really kind of custom tailored approach is gonna be available for those that want it. Particularly from the pathology side of my interest. [00:36:19] I think precision monitoring and detection of disease is just, I. Advancing leaps and bounds. So again, like, you know, going out there and doing scouting, hopefully people are gonna have a lot better tools available, available to 'em in the near future to really kind of understand crucial times in their season where disease is coming in. [00:36:36] And then again, like I. Just having better tools to kind of really actually di inform us of the pathogen as well that's present rather than just again, a lot of, a lot of diseases is hard to pinpoint to an exact pathogen. We're lucky in grapes, powerdy, mildew, and, botrytis are very obvious. We know what those are, we think are some of the row crops. [00:36:52] It could be a whole host of things. We've got nematodes, we've got various sore pathogens that we can't actually see. So I think yeah, improving disease diagnosis and detection, having these precision tools is gonna be a huge part of the future where biologicals can integrate themselves in as well. [00:37:07] Craig Macmillan: That sounds pretty exciting. I wanna thank you both for being on the program. This has been a really great conversation. My guests today we're Nevada Smith. He is the head of Marketing North America and Robert Blande, who's a research plant pathologist, both with Pro Farm Group. Thanks for being on the podcast. [00:37:22] Nevada Smith: Appreciate you. [00:37:23] Rob Blundell: Thank you very much, Craig. It was a pleasure. [00:37:25] Craig Macmillan: And to our listeners, thank you for listening to Sustainable Wine Growing Vineyard team. [00:37:29] Nevada Smith: Craig, one more thing. We gotta just drink more wine.  [00:37:40] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. [00:37:41] Today's podcast was brought to you by Vineyard Industry Products serving the needs of growers since 1979. Vineyard industry products believes that integrity is vital to building long-term customer, employee, and vendor relationships. And they work hard to provide quality products at the best prices they can find. Vineyard industry products gives back investing in both the community and the industry. [00:38:06] Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Pro Farm, an article titled, what are Bio Pesticides Plus Related Sustainable Wine Growing Podcast episodes. 117 Grapevine Mildew Control with UV Light 123. What's happening in biologicals for pest management and plant health? 266 Soft pesticide trial for powdery mildew, downy mildew, botrytis and sour rot, and a healthy soils playlist. [00:38:34] If you'd like the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts on vineyard team.org/podcast, and you can reach us at podcast@vineyardteam.org. Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard team.   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

Amid news of oversupply and decreased demand, the wine industry has an opportunity to adapt to the changing market. Audra Cooper, Director of Grape Brokerage, and Eddie Urman, Central Coast Grape Broker at Turrentine Brokerage, discuss key grape and wine industry trends, from oversupply and vineyard removals to the growing necessity of sustainable certification. They explore regional dynamics, bulk wine market shifts, and future trends, emphasizing innovation, industry collaboration, and better marketing to stay competitive. Resources:         REGISTER: 4/5/25 Fungicide Spraying: Evolving Strategies & Grower Insights Tailgate 258: 5 Ways Certification Makes Brands the SIP | Marketing Tip Monday 259: Winegrape Market Trends of 2024 265: How to Stand Out on Social Media in 2025 268: How to Tackle Leadership Transitions Successfully Turrentine Brokerage Turrentine Brokerage - Newsletter Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Amid news of oversupply and decreased demand, the wine industry has an opportunity to adapt to the changing market. [00:00:11] Welcome to Sustainable Wine, growing with the Vineyard team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic executive director. [00:00:22] In today's podcast, Craig McMillan, critical resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates. With Longtime SIP Certified Vineyard, and the first ever SIP certified winery speaks with Audra Cooper, director of Grape Brokerage and Eddie Urman, central Coast Grape Broker At Turrentine Brokerage, [00:00:41] they discuss key grape and wine industry trends from oversupply to vineyard removals to the growing necessity of sustainable certification. They explore regional dynamics, bulk wine market shifts and future trends. Emphasizing innovation, industry collaboration, and better marketing to stay competitive. [00:01:01] If you love infield education and are on California Central Coast on April 25th, 2025, please join us at the fungicide spring tailgate hosted at Cal Poly. In San Luis Obispo, California, Dr. Shunping Ding will share updated results from a 2024 study on fungicide programs using bio fungicides and their impact on grape yield and berry chemistry. Then we'll visit the Cal Poly Vineyard to explore new powdered mildew management technologies and discuss fungicide spraying programs. With farmers from throughout the central coast to register, go to vineyard team.org/events or look for the link in the show notes. [00:01:44] Craig Macmillan: Our guests today are Audra Cooper. She's Director of Grape Brokerage with Turrentine Brokerage. And also, Eddie Urman, who's Central Coast Grape Broker with Turrentine Brokerage as well. And thanks for coming back. This is part two of a, of a, of an episode here. So, I really appreciate you folks making time to come back. [00:02:00] Audra Cooper: Thank you for having us back. We're excited to join you once again. [00:02:04] Eddie Urman: Yeah, thanks for having us. [00:02:05] Craig Macmillan: So Audra, let's start with you. In our last conversation . [00:02:17] And that was kind of where we left it that then started a conversation amongst the three of us afterward. We were like, okay, there's a lot more to talk about here. So let's do it. [00:02:24] Can you give some examples of what you mean by getting ahead of changes? [00:02:30] Audra Cooper: I think it's a sound business strategy to always try and stay ahead of the curve regardless of what component of business or what industry you're in, right? It's just a, a good strategy to have and a good philosophy to have. It's really important in this industry to continue to stay relevant and in order to stay relevant, you have to stay within the trend or ahead of the trend. [00:02:51] Being behind the eight ball is, never a good thing . You need to be ahead of the curve. A good example of that is sustainable certification. And we still have these discussions on the daily and Eddie, you can talk to this too about how often we have to talk about if you're not sustainably certified, you are cutting your buyer pool, probably roughly in half, as I mentioned in the previous podcast, and you're limiting yourself. [00:03:18] And the majority of the practices, most growers are probably already doing, and they're just not going through the certification process and getting that done. And if you look back a little over a decade ago, it was something that wineries were paying, you know, 25, 50 per ton more for, they were paying a premium. [00:03:36] And then it became more of a, this is really nice to have. And so more and more growers We're doing it as a point of differentiation in their marketing. And now today it's almost a necessity. It's no longer something that's necessarily going to get you a premium price for your grapes. It's also not necessarily a point of differentiation any longer. [00:03:55] It's a need to have. [00:03:57] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, Eddie, do you have anything to add to that? [00:03:59] Eddie Urman: No, I think that's a great example. , Audra offered up. [00:04:02] Craig Macmillan: So there's, trends around that, and there's a lot of certifications now, and I agree, I think a lot of folks don't need to be afraid of whatever the certification is, because you're probably doing a lot of those things already, a lot of common practices. [00:04:13] I think that's an interesting insight that now it's kind of becoming expected or certainly a requirement for a lot of wineries. [00:04:19] Let's talk about changes in acreage. That's where we left off last time when we were talking about the difference between vineyard removals, which have been suggested, recommended, et cetera, by a number of folks in the industry as we just are in oversupply period I've heard estimates that we may have 30 to 35, 000 acres of grapes, more than we need based on current demand. [00:04:40] how accurate do you think that is? , how bad is it on the supply side? [00:04:45] Audra Cooper: Well, I think you have a couple parts to that question, right? Let's dissect that a little bit and start with, we just got back from the Unified Wine Grape Symposium in Sacramento, and of course, during the State of the Industry, Jeff Bitter gave his annual synopsis of the nursery survey that they do annually on how many vines were sold, and they do a, A lot of data work in regards to what were removals and his number that he reported over the last two years was 37, 500 acres have been removed from the state of California. [00:05:15] He believes based on their research that another 50, 000 acres need to be removed to reach the point of balance, assuming that consumption stays at its current rate or drops just a tiny bit. [00:05:29] And when we look at our information internally, now we don't do a survey like Allied does, but we're tracking a lot of information, both with our winery partners as well as our grower partners in regards to who's doing what, and our number's a little bit higher, but we also go back four years technically going back to 2022, our number for the state of California is closer to about 50, 000 acres that have been removed, and, you know, I would argue that If consumption stays flat, certainly there will need more removals, but I don't know about 50, 000 acres more. [00:06:04] That seems like an awful lot of acres that need to be removed. If his numbers are right, that would put us back to Basically global recession numbers, which would be around 500, 000 acres bearing.  [00:06:16] Craig Macmillan: right. in the Grape Crush Report, which is an annual report that's put out by, uh, California Department Of Food and Agriculture and the National Agricultural Statistics Service, there is a non bearing acres section in there, which I always find very interesting. Are we able to glean anything from that data in terms of what's been sold, what we think's gonna go back in, et cetera? [00:06:39] I want to put a timestamp on this. So this is being recorded first week of February, 2025. So the unified was in 2025. The report that's coming out is going to be for the 2024 year. [00:06:48] What can we learn from that non bearing acreage report?  [00:06:51] Audra Cooper: So there's two different reports. the acreage report will be coming out a little bit later in the year. We're going to have our crush report come out on February 10. I think you can glean two pieces of information, but both are very similar. And that is how much acreage has actually been removed and how light the crop truly was, particularly in the coastal regions for 2024. [00:07:10] And so when we look at, for example, a 23 bearing and non bearing acreage information from the state of California they're reporting 446, 000 acres of bearing wine grapes. And if you take that at, say, 7 tons an acre, that's 3. 12 million tons. And we know with certainty at 7 tons an acre, That acreage seems pretty low. [00:07:35] It doesn't seem realistic. So unfortunately, because it's a voluntary report when it comes to bearing versus non bearing acres, I do think that the state's probably about two years behind on real data trends. And so unfortunately right now, if you were to use that report as, you know, an analysis of the industry, you'd probably be a bit off. [00:07:54] Craig Macmillan: got it, got it. Are there trends in what varieties are coming out and what varieties are going back in? Because that's often been the driving force for removals and replants, is chasing the marketplace. Are we seeing that kind of thing in California? [00:08:11] Audra Cooper: Yeah, you know, I'll I'll touch on this a little bit and then turn it over to Eddie. It's, it's really difficult to predict in our industry how and what and when to plant, right? Because you are following a trend and a trend that you're going to be lagging behind in trying to meet because of the amount of time it takes to get a crop and a crop that is productive. [00:08:31] And so oftentimes we're abridged, Yeah. Yeah. too far behind in regards to consumer trends. When we look at the central coast as a whole, there's certainly some segmented dynamics on what's being removed versus planted. And, you know, a good place to start, of course, is Paso. Eddie, do you want to talk a little bit more about that? [00:08:51] Eddie Urman: Yeah we do see some trends of, varieties, being pushed out more frequently than others. You know, for the Central Coast, a couple that come to mind are, Zin, Pinot Noir Merlot is one that historically came out. If it's still there, still going out, and then more specifically, old vines is probably the more specific categories. You are seeing a lot of Cab being pushed, that are old vines, but likely to go back into Cab if it gets replanted. [00:09:17] Audra Cooper: that's an interesting trend, because when we're looking at what was purchased based on the survey numbers that Jeff Bitter reported, he was talking about 12, 000 acres being planted based on their survey in 2024, and an overwhelming percentage was still red varietals, which really bucks the trend on what we're seeing observing boots on the ground. [00:09:41] What we've mainly been seeing planted are more alternative whites and niche whites like Grenache Blanc, Pinot Grigio Astrotico, you know, very specific alternative whites in which they're trending with DTC and kind of smaller producers. Certainly we still see some redevelopment of Cabernet as well as Pinot Noir and Chardonnay, not so much on the red blender side or Merlot. [00:10:06] Those seem to be being pulled out and not redeveloped. [00:10:09] Craig Macmillan: Are we seeing any changes or trends around Okay, I'm pushing out Cabernet. I'm going to replant Cabernet. , am I going to replant the same amount of Cabernet? Am I using this as an opportunity to plant new ground? Do we have any information about that kind of thing? [00:10:24] Audra Cooper: Yeah, I mean, to give you hard data would be challenging. I don't know that anyone really has, a hard, fast calculation of what they do and don't do in regards to, the varietal makeup of a redevelopment. And I do want to clarify, I think there's a common misconception, particularly in the coastal regions that This is new net acreage. [00:10:43] It's not new net acreage. A lot of this is redeveloped acreage, but it will be higher in productivity based on, you know, better vines, healthier vines, better spacing, new farming technology, and so forth. And so we'll have new net supply based off that acreage. In full production. When you look at the new developments, though, and it was save paso cab, for example, it's really difficult to say, Oh, well, let's do 50 percent cab and 50 percent red blenders. [00:11:14] I mean, that's a tough decision to make. And you're really making a a pretty risky bet. I think for most people, they're going to plant to the site and also to the trend in the market. And so oftentimes, for example, again, Paso Cab, you're still going to have Cabernet largely go back in on those redevelopments. [00:11:31] When you look at Santa Barbara County, I think they're diversifying a little bit more than they had been in the past. You're not largely just Chardonnay Pinot Cab. You're also seeing alternative reds and whites being planted in that area. Monterey County, when you look at that region, it tends to be a little bit more mixed bag, but still largely chardonnay then in the southern Monterey County area, cabernet and red blenders. [00:11:54] Craig Macmillan: Do you have anything to add to that, Eddie? [00:11:56] Eddie Urman: As far as the rate of what's going back in the ground, you know, in acres. I think as far as East Paso goes Monterey County, Santa Barbara County, we're seeing contraction as far as more acres coming out that are going back. The only area we do see more plantings that are new, it is in the West side of Paso. And it's substantial. I think there's a good amount of acres that have gone in the West side. [00:12:17] Being from the growing side, I think we always wanted to diversify away from Cabernet and Paso Robles specifically, but the reality is the majority of people still want to buy Cabernet. So if anything, I'm worried that growers expect other varieties to try to diversify their portfolio that might not match the demand. [00:12:37] Craig Macmillan: Right, right. And speaking of demand. , we're talking about land and grapes, what's the current state of the, the bulk wine market where you'd expect a lot of the sovers to go where are we kind of at and what do you think are going to be the impacts on the bulk wine market with the replanting? [00:12:53] Audra Cooper: currently right now, listed available with us is about 28 million gallons. We anticipate that it will climb to probably 30, maybe past 30 million gallons at the peak of listing this year, which is typically early summer. In large part, that's still 2023 vintage. However, we do still have some 21, 22, and of course now new 24 is being listed. [00:13:18] The rate of listing is not being eclipsed by the rate of, you know, attrition decline in regards to bulk wine being removed from the market, whether that's through sales or higher and better use internally for those who are listing it. So we still have an off kilter balance there and certainly dramatically an oversupply and that dynamics likely to continue for the next couple of years until we see consumption increase and, and therefore increasing demand for new products. [00:13:45] Typically when we've seen these large increases in availability, what's gotten us out of it is the negotiants who are developing new brands, particularly when we look back to the premiumization sector. We saw a lot of middle tiers, you know, the likes of Duckhorn and Joel Gott and several others who were growing programs that they may have had for a couple of years, but they were very small and they've broadened those to other Appalachians or California and went to the bulk market first to kind of grow those programs before they started grape contracting. [00:14:16] So we're going to need to start seeing that trend in order to clean that market up. [00:14:19] Craig Macmillan: And so that's, that's basically good news, you think, for the bulk wine supply going down the road. [00:14:23] Audra Cooper: I think. In the future, it is in the short term. It's rather painful to have that amount of availability, right? We've been tracking this for the better part of three decades, and there's never been a single calendar year in which we've carried this amount of inventory, particularly going into last harvest, it was the highest inventory we'd ever seen in our tracking. [00:14:44] Keep in mind that this is what's listed available for us. This is not going out and taking inventory of what everyone has in tank that they're not necessarily going to bottle or they don't have a program for. So you can easily maybe double that number and that's what the likely availability is. [00:15:03] Craig Macmillan: Eddie what do you think is going to happen with pricing on on bulk wine? Yeah, I know that you're a specialized in grapes. But obviously those growers are concerned about what's going to happen to those grapes. From the grower side, how attractive is it right now to turn product into bulk wine, do you think? [00:15:21] Eddie Urman: I would say it's very, very, very much not attractive. Uh, we would. Not advocate for that in most scenarios for growers at this time regarding bulk pricing, you know, bulk wine, obviously we have bulk people who have better insight than Audrey, but in general, it's not going to be good. We don't, we don't foresee an increase in price as. we're obviously seeing an increase in supply of bulk wine, that typically is going to still have more downward pressure on price. And as far as growers bulking wine, it's, I think, a very risky game right now. You know, bulk wine does have a life expectancy, to Audra's point earlier. And, know, if you bulk it now, you have to sell it eventually to make your money back. [00:16:02] And then on top of that, you have to carry those costs with today's interest rates.  [00:16:06] Craig Macmillan: Right, right. So, prices for bulk wine right now, I'm guessing have been on the decline for probably a couple of years. Is that accurate? [00:16:13] Audra Cooper: Yeah, that's an accurate statement. If I were to really think about how long they've been on the decline, I would say probably mid, mid calendar year 2023 is when we start to see the downturn of the market be very, you know, impactful on pricing and overall demand. And of course, increasing inventory is really when that trend started. [00:16:34] I want to kind of go back to what Eddie was talking about regarding you know growers making bulk wine and and how risky that is, you know, we have a saying internally and it's so Elementary, but it's so applicable to these times. Your first loss is typically your best loss or your least loss and so it's really important when you're looking at alternative to market Whether or not you're actually going to be able to optimize how much investment you have in that product, and more often than not, when you're making grapes into bulk wine as a grower, you're not going to have the wherewithal to compete with a competitive set, other wineries, or large growers whose business models incorporate making bulk wine as a producer. [00:17:15] So you really end up being on the losing end of that game. [00:17:19] Craig Macmillan: Eddie, do you see price pressure on growers? Are prices being negotiated down or contracts being changed or not renewed? And if so, does that vary by region, do you think? I know you specialize in the Central Coast, but just from what you know. [00:17:34] Eddie Urman: I think for the Central Coast, it's easy to say that there's still unfortunately more cancellations or evergreens being called and their contracts being executed. There is some activity of people being willing to look at stuff and even make offers, which is good news, but typically it's at a lower pricing. [00:17:51] Craig Macmillan: This is for both of you if I'm a grower and I'm facing this situation both what I can get for my price and then also what the chances are of me selling my stuff on the bulk market, is this a situation where we're maybe better off not harvesting all the crop or mothballing some vineyards for the short term? [00:18:08] Eddie Urman: Yeah, I mean, I think in general, the less we pick this upcoming season that doesn't have a home, you know, the better off if it's picked for, uh, a program where it's actually needed, that's great, but bulking one on spec or taking in more fruit because it's cheap or very, you know, very low cost is not going to be a good thing. good overall thing for the industry. [00:18:30] As far as mothballing, we've talked a lot internally. This is where the conversation came in last time about making tough decisions and being intentional about how you're going to farm or you plant going into the season as a grower is, you know, mothballing is very controversial. [00:18:45] I think for our team, as far as whether it truly works and can you truly come back after it's done, if you're mothballing a Vineyard that's at the end of his life expectancy. You're probably just delaying your pain one more year. Cause it probably will not come back. If you're mothballing a five year old vineyard, maybe it's something that's a different story, but a real tough decision. [00:19:06] Mothballing a young producing vineyard most people are not in that situation. [00:19:12] Audra Cooper: Yeah, I mean, I want to expand a little bit on the, the mothballing and not harvesting fruit. I think it's really important that, you know, while this is a rather negative time in the industry and it's really easy to be very pessimistic. I do want to be optimistic about the needed outcomes and the solutions and the pain that's still rather prevalent in our industry to get kind of to the other side of being healthy. [00:19:36] I do want to be optimistic about some of the newer plantings that we've seen basically since 2012. There is a lot of new to middle aged vineyards that I really hope continue to stay in the ground. They need to stay in the ground because they are the highest and best fit for some of the newer style products in wine. [00:19:54] And we need to be able to continue to keep our wine quality elevated. And so while certainly there's vineyards that need to be removed or, or mothballed and taken out of production, there's also the flip side of that where there's a huge need for some of the. better vineyards and the more sought after vineyards or the vineyards that are priced right for the program that they're going into. [00:20:16] So this is kind of a double edged sword in the sense that yeah, we need plenty of production to be pulled out of the supply chain, but at the same time there's a huge need for very specific supply. So I want to be very careful in classifying those items. [00:20:30] Craig Macmillan: Right. And that brings me to my next question Audra there must be regional differences. Yeah. Yeah. In these patterns, I would assume some areas maybe are a little bit more protected from this kind of contraction or, or expansion over supply and others probably really bearing the brunt. I would guess. Do you see patterns at the state level? [00:20:48] Audra Cooper: I see patterns at the state level, but I can even bring it down to the central coast, even so far down to like even Paso right now. And Eddie and I have been talking about this a lot. You know, we saw a huge uptick in available inventory for east side AVA Cabernet and red blenders and even some of the white. Over the last two years, particularly last year in 2024, [00:21:11] and now we're seeing that dynamic shift from the east side climbing and available inventory. And now the west side is where we're seeing most of our listings come from over the last couple of weeks. And so we're now seeing it kind of push into more of the premium luxury tiers as far as this oversupply and the contraction and the kind of the pain points. [00:21:29] And so we are moving through the channels. Which I know again is, is difficult to hear and it's a very negative position to be in the industry, but it's also a sign that the market and the supply chain is moving through what it needs to move towards in order to come out the other side of this thing on a healthier end. [00:21:48] We comment on this a lot where. You know, it's going to get worse, dramatically worse for a short period of time before it gets better. And we're starting to see kind of the beginning of that position. [00:21:58] Craig Macmillan: What about the San Joaquin Valley? San Joaquin Valley? [00:22:02] Audra Cooper: is actually typically leading the charge in regards to our market, particularly our supply aspect of things, both in grapes and bulk wine. And so when we see A retraction in our industry or oversupply. We typically see it in the interior of the central valley first And when we see kind of a new, Growth stage we see it over there first as well And so they're ahead of us by one to two years Currently and then it kind of follows into the central coast and then up into the north coast and what i've seen Historically when you look back at markets and you look at kind of the time horizons of these things how? Long they live and what pushes the momentum of these markets. You'll typically see it last longer in the Central Valley, tiny bit shorter in the Central Coast and a lot shorter in the North Coast. The North Coast usually doesn't see quite as long of a pain period as the other two regions do. And there's, there's a lot of reasons that we probably shouldn't get into today because it would be a whole nother topic of conversation. [00:23:00] But I do think that the Central Coast right now has got another challenging year ahead of it. But also I think that the on ramp to a more positive industry is a little shorter than what I think people are giving credit for too because a lot of the work is being done, we just got to get through these major pain points first. [00:23:19] Craig Macmillan: We know that consumers drive demand for wine and hence wine grapes but are there other economic forces or political forces or regulatory forces that put pressure on this grape market aside from just consumer demand? [00:23:32] Eddie Urman: again, but 1 of big 1s is, put, it could put pressure to the positive or negative on our industry. We don't really know yet. It's still to be determined. when I read this question, the other thing came to mind to me is, is from a grower's perspective ensuring that you're growing. The compatible correct grapes for your region or varieties or it's staying within where you need to be. If the market for, for example, Chardonnay went through, went to the moon, it doesn't mean everyone in Paso should plant Chardonnay, [00:24:00] even though that's the hot variety, right? [00:24:02] It wouldn't be the best variety for most areas of Those are some of the quicker things that come to my mind. I'll probably elaborate. [00:24:10] Audra Cooper: I think to expand upon that, certainly regulations regarding, you know, water usage and irrigation is is a huge factor. And, and Eddie, you could probably do an entire podcast on that particular topic. And I'm sure that you guys have actually, Craig in addition to that, you really look at the economic environment in which people are growing grapes and producing wine. [00:24:32] And the economy of it is getting, you know, more and more difficult. The margins are getting much smaller. You can argue that more often than not people are taking losses year over year. And that puts a ton of pressure on their cash flow. In addition to that, when you look at the lending environment as well, that's become a lot more say, non conducive to being able to continue with business. In a lot of cases, [00:24:57] we have a handful of clients, if not more, who are questioning, do I prune because I don't necessarily have the same operational loan that I've had over the last couple of years and I've been taking low grape prices in order to survive to the following year, but you can only do that so long before it catches up to you. [00:25:14] And then we have another group or another segment of clientele who will prune, but may end up having to throw in the towel sometime, you know, mid summer or sooner because they don't have enough capital to continue with the grapes or you know, not sold. And then you look at the producer side on the winery side, and, and they too are getting crunched. [00:25:32] You know, we often talk about how low grape prices are, but we forget that, you know, wineries are getting crunched on their bottle price as well in order to nationally distribute. You know, what you see on the shelf as a price point does not necessarily mean that that's a price point to that producer. So the economies of this industry are getting more and more difficult every single year. [00:25:52] Craig Macmillan: Eddie, especially, are you seeing trends towards things like mechanization to try to keep costs down? [00:25:58] Eddie Urman: Yeah, absolutely. I mean mechanization and then automation and the vineyard or two, the , you know, hottest topics so here. And people were definitely making the efforts to try to implement those as they come available. The difficult thing can be oftentimes it's investment in equipment. That's very expensive and you have to truly consider is it going to, is it economically feasible to invest in that equipment and what's the payout time going to be based upon the amount of acres you're farming or how many passes you can do with that piece of equipment. So we're, we're seeing it happen, which is great. [00:26:31] It's innovation and it's heading us in the right direction, but at this point, a lot of it is still quite expensive and not everyone could participate for cost reasons. Yeah. [00:26:41] Craig Macmillan: Going forward, we've talked about this a little bit in terms of how different regions are kind of more paying for longer and some a little bit less and et cetera. And this then translates into the wines that are out there. Audra, you'd mentioned you know, the potential of negotiants to come in and help to alleviate the market. [00:26:59] That's definitely what happened in the nineties from my memory. We saw a lot of negotiate brands pop up because there was a plentiful supply for some of those years. Are there things that companies or government or grower associations, are there things that organizations could do to advise growers or help move people in the right direction in terms of kind of what they need to do? Is the viticulture consulting community? Taking these things into account Eddie, let's start with you, [00:27:29] Eddie Urman: that's a big question. there are plenty of people giving good advice in the industry and growers do have resources to reach out to, but it's very difficult to hear information that doesn't. Align with what you would like to do, right? So taking out our emotions from this from the equation and say, okay, does it really make sense to do this or to do that? Where where's that going to leave us and is that going to be in a position? To move forward in a better, know in a better new industry or new, you know New time in this industry when things rebound there's information out there, but it is difficult extremely difficult right now for growers and wineries to make decisions [00:28:09] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. That's the challenge when you have something like this, where it's individual decisions that lead to mass outcomes. It's hard for me as an individual to say, okay, well, I'm going to do my part. I'm going to keep these 10 acres out of production. Especially when I can see that I could sell to somebody. It's a tough go. Go ahead, Audra. [00:28:24] Audra Cooper: So I'm gonna go off on a tangent here a little bit. [00:28:26] Craig Macmillan: do. [00:28:28] Audra Cooper: I don't know, you might not welcome this one. So, you know, some people know this about me. I'm a pretty big Tony Robbins fan. And, You know, for some of you who don't know who that is, he's a self help guru that does a lot of different events and has written a lot of books and he has a philosophy and a saying that he utilizes through most of events, which is where focus goes, energy flows. [00:28:51] And unfortunately, we have not done the best of jobs being positive about ourselves in the industry, out there in the media, that ultimately is consumed by the masses. And so, I've been on this huge bandwagon about, when we're talking to the media, obviously we need to be rooted in reality, but we need to be as optimistic as we can about who we are and what our why is. [00:29:16] And I think oftentimes when we have these downturns, and this one's a pretty deep one, admittedly. That's the rooted in reality, right? But in these downturns, we tend to turn very, very pessimistic and we fail to remember that to some degree or another. We've been here before, and there have been a lot of innovations and activities and work and leadership that have pulled us out of it, and so we need to remember our history a little bit, I think would be my recommendation there, and I think a lot of the associations do a great job In reminding everyone what the historical background is and in some of our why Paso Robles Wine Country Alliance is a great example of what an association can do for a region on a national and international level. [00:30:03] I will continue to sing their praises because I think they've done a beautiful job in what they've done over the last 15 years. When you look at You know, what's happening from a government and regulation standpoint, you know, we have to band together as a community and be loud voices. We can't just rely on our neighbor or our representative to be our representative voice. [00:30:25] We need to make sure that we continue to be out there and loud. The other thing too is. We have a community, but we have a tendency to not keep collaboration consistent, and I would love to see our industry collaborate a little bit more, particularly on social media. I know that there's a lot of people probably listening to this right now thinking, why is social media even a remote solution? [00:30:48] But the amount of consumption from the younger generation that are now of drinking age that have not adopted wine as a beverage of choice, consume a huge amount of social media, more than they do TV, more than they do reading, more than any other culture. aspect of information gathering or any other platform that's available to them. [00:31:10] And we have an opportunity to band together and collaborate and change the algorithm regarding wine on social media. And I love to see us do that. We haven't done it. And there's various methods of doing that. And again, could probably be another podcast. I'm by no means the foremost expert on that, but our collaborative efforts. [00:31:27] We'll just drop that because I don't even remember exactly [00:31:30] Craig Macmillan: I think that's sound advice And it's always been a challenge. We do have some statewide Organizations that have that mission. They have a lot on their plate But I agree with you. I think that that is definitely the route or it seems to be the route There's more more research coming out that's showing that Not just the time but also like where people get their news You know, it shows you how important that is to them, how important , that venue is to them. [00:31:55] Eddie Urman: 1 of the things for me to extrapolate on that a little bit. What Audra was talking about is unified at the industry hot topics. Um. Rock mcmillan talked for a minute. The ceo of silicon bank about the wine industry Not itself and taking market share from itself, but taking market share from wine from beer from spirits They've clearly done that to us. [00:32:18] I mean It's a competition. It is what it is, and we've not done a great job marketing To younger, younger generations, everybody knows that everybody repeats it, but what are we going to do about it? And how can we as an industry figure out how to do a better job getting people exposed to wine, getting people to enjoy wine? [00:32:37] Audra Cooper: Yeah, I like that, Eddie. It's time to get aggressive and it's time to re enter wine in the conversation of culture and being part of the daily lifestyle. We've let it kind of fall by the wayside and it's time to get aggressive about what wine can be and was and should be here in the near future. [00:32:57] Craig Macmillan: right. You'd mentioned, you know, what's happened in the past. Audra, are there lessons that we learned that we are forgetting from 20 years ago or lessons that we should have learned 20 years ago that might help us now? [00:33:11] Audra Cooper: it's, that's an interesting question, and I think it is a great question of merit, because history does tend to repeat itself I think we need to get better about predictive trends, and I don't know what the answer is to that, I just know that we need to do that and again, we, we kind of talked about it early in the podcast here that, you know, it's really hard to plant a trend, because you're usually behind the eight ball on it. [00:33:38] And I think that we need to get better about how we plan for the future. I think we forget that, you know, Robert Mondavi and the Gallo's and, and countless others who came before us really went out. To the masses and marketed wine, not just their brands or their programs. They were out there to make sure that they were representing the wine industry and the product that we produce first and foremost. [00:34:06] And so I think there's that element. It's not necessarily missing, but it's not loud enough and it's not aggressive enough. And so we definitely need some leaders to come forward in that regard and really push the initiatives. That we fought so hard to stay in business for. When you look back historically to, I think we have a tendency to kind of do the blame game a little bit. [00:34:28] Like, you've planted too much over there on the coast and you've removed too much of the northern interior and you're charging too much up there in the north coast. And the reality is there's a place. For everyone to play and instead of being the competitive set that we are, again, to Eddie's point that Rob McMillan made as state of the industry, we should be looking at how do we take market share from our competitors, which are beer and spirits, RTDs, and so forth, not from each other. [00:34:57] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It sounds like it's a time when we need to see some new leadership step up or some folks to take leadership roles which is always kind of scary. [00:35:08] Audra Cooper: It is. It's, it's, you know, here's the, the beautiful thing about emotion though. It's usually a call to action. So if we get scared enough. Someone will do something and I think we're just about there, and, and there's probably people working in the shadows that we're not aware of that will probably come forward here soon, you know, there's great leadership at CAWG level with their association as well as the Wine Institute, they're working hard every single day to be lobbyists , for our industry and to be making sure that they're representing our issues and finding solutions, solutions. [00:35:40] You know, one of the big things that I've learned over the last couple of years, particularly this last year, is, is that we are all responsible for our future and making sure our future is compelling. And so we need to be supporting those associations and paying attention to the relevancy of the information that's out there. [00:35:55] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, that's excellent. This is a, again, kind of a, kind of a tangent and it may not lead anywhere, but I, I just had this thought. You were talking about sustainability certifications and how important they are for growers now. Do you think that communicating the sustainability story of wineries and probably done at an individual level and then spreading out from there do you think consumers would respond to that? [00:36:17] Eddie Urman: Yeah it's hard to say because marketing is not my forte, but I, it sure seems like with the trends as far as health conscious and all this, I think it would resonate with them. It really should. And it's something we should probably capitalize on more as an industry in general. Yeah. [00:36:33] Craig Macmillan: That's interesting. Well do you have, does anybody have like a final message or one thing you would tell growers on this topic? Audra, [00:36:40] Audra Cooper: Well, we covered a lot of topics today, and I think I'll leave everyone with the same thing I said earlier, Where focus goes, energy flows, and if we're focused on the negative, and we're focused on how tough the industry is right now, that's where we're going to be. If we're focused on solutions, we'll find one that works, and it's going to be different for everyone. [00:37:04] Everyone's solution may look a little bit different. This is both an individual and industry wide issue that we're facing currently. with the downturn in the industry and the extreme oversupply. But I have faith that the work that's already being done will pull us out of this. We just need to get innovative in how we market to new consumers. [00:37:26] Craig Macmillan: That's great. Where can people find out more about you folks? [00:37:29] Eddie Urman: on our website. , you can get our information on there and reach out and contact us. Anything else Audra. Right. [00:37:44] Audra Cooper: Year you can go to our social media Turrentine Brokerate or you can find me at GrapeBroker on Instagram. You can also call us or email us or text us if you'd like, or smoke signal us too, although please don't carry fires. [00:37:50] Craig Macmillan: Anyway, right. Well, thank you so much. I guess today we're Audrey Cooper she is a director of great brokerage at Turrentine. Brokerage and Eddie Urman, who is the central coast, great broker Turrentine. Thank you both for being here and having such an interesting conversation. It's an important topic with a lot of question marks, lots and lots of questions, but I think we had some good things come out of it and I really appreciate it. [00:38:11] Audra Cooper: All right. Thank you.  [00:38:17] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by wonderful laboratories. Wonderful laboratories. Operates two state of the art high throughput laboratories to support pathogen detection and nutrient analysis. The team provides full service support to customers with field sampling, custom panels, and special projects. Their customers include pest control advisors, growers, consultants, seed companies, backyard gardeners, researchers, and more. [00:38:45] Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Turntine brokerage. Their previous interview on the Sustainable Winegrowing podcast, that's number 259, wine Grape Market Trends for 2024, plus other sustainable wine growing podcast episodes, including 265. How to stand out on social media in 2025 and 268 how to tackle leadership transitions successfully.   [00:39:10] If you'd like this show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing and leaving us a review. [00:39:16] You can find all of the podcasts@vineyardteam.org/podcast and you can reach us at podcast@vineyardteam.org. Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard team.   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: A label can provide a lot of information about a wine. The next time you walk down the wine aisle, look for common terms and symbols like vintage, place of origin, percent alcohol, and even the SIP certified logo. [00:00:12] Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know that customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry. These twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable wine growing. [00:00:29] Many labeling requirements in the United States are defined by the Code of Federal Regulations. In this week's marketing tip, we are giving you a green wine glossary. Five common wine designations, defined, so you'll wonder no longer. [00:00:45] Number one is vegan. Not every wine fits the vegan lifestyle. During the winemaking process, small particles can cause haziness or unwanted flavor properties. Winemakers can add a fining agent that will bind to these tiny particles and make them large enough to be filtered out. Many fining agents are animal based. Egg whites, casein, and gelatin. Wine that was fined with any of these materials cannot be considered vegan. Vegan wines include those that were either fined with a non animal based agent. Like bentonite clay, or not find at all. [00:01:19] Number two is natural. There is no official or regulated definition of natural wine. That being said, most understand it as a wine that was made through a minimal intervention, no additive approach. Natural wines are fermented with native yeasts versus adding yeast. They cannot be filtered or fined, nor can winemaking additives be used, except for a small amount of sulfur pre bottling. If you are told that the wine you're drinking is natural, remember to ask what it means. [00:01:48] Number three is organic. Wine must meet several requirements in order to be labeled as an organic wine. The vineyard must be certified organic, the winemaking process must be certified organic, and the final product must contain at least 95 percent organic ingredients, no additives, and no preservatives. Please note that wine made with organic grapes are not the same as organic wines. While this definition means that a hundred percent of the grapes used were certified organic, Other ingredients in the wine do not have to be organic, but do note that they cannot be genetically engineered. Another thing to keep in mind is that organic designation varies between countries. [00:02:25] Number four is biodynamic. The biodynamic farming principle is guided by nature's rhythms and the understanding that the vineyard is a self contained ecosystem where all elements live and work together. Like organic, synthetic inputs are prohibited in biodynamic farming. But unlike any other program, the timing of biodynamic practices aligns with the lunar and celestial cycles. This is because of the belief that moon phases in planetary positions affect the flow of sap and energy in the vines, and that there is value in keeping practices in sync with these forces. Demeter International is the most recognized certification body for biodynamic wines. For a wine to bear the seal, the grapes must be grown in adherence to the biodynamic principles, and the wine must be made through certified biodynamic processes. [00:03:12] And number five is sustainable in agriculture. Sustainability means adhering to practices that protect social and environmental health while enhancing economic vitality. sustainably grown grapes are farmed similarly to organic and biodynamic grapes. All programs seek to protect human and environmental health through reducing inputs and conserving. And regenerating natural resources where sustainability differs is that it looks beyond the farm and into the business itself, including worker safety, community relationships, continuing education and accounting and budgeting, just to name a few of the areas that certification bodies like SIP certified address in the standards. Certification also extends from the vineyard and into the winery. [00:03:55] Did you know that your wine can include the SIP certified seal on the label if it's made with 85 percent SIP certified fruit, whether it is estate or purchased? Simply go to SIP certified. org to apply today. So your customers will know that your wine was made through practices that protect the people and the planet. [00:04:13] Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team. Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Apply for SIP Certified Wine Marketing Tips eNewsletter Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet  Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Succession planning is essential for businesses navigating leadership changes due to retirement, promotions, or new opportunities. Erin Hoffman, Partner and Senior Consultant at Collaboration Business Consulting shares key strategies for success. Long-term exit strategies (3, 5, and 10 years) help ensure a seamless transition. Key considerations include: How will the company evolve? Will the current management team remain? Who needs leadership development? Aligning stakeholders—whether family or business partners—is crucial. Addressing emotions like frustration or uncertainty and acknowledging these feelings can ease transitions. A solid game plan should outline financial considerations, role transitions, and leadership development. Regular management meetings and third-party reviews help maintain accountability. Ongoing leadership development and multiple succession pathways provide flexibility. Transparency in succession planning builds confidence and stability, ensuring business continuity through leadership changes. Resources:         221: Future Proof Your Wine Business with Omnichannel Communication Collaboration Business Consulting Collaboration Business Consulting Speaking Engagements Collaboration Business Consulting Resources Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Succession planning is essential for businesses navigating leadership changes due to retirement, promotions, or new opportunities. [00:00:13] Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, Executive Director. [00:00:22] In today's podcast, Craig Macmillan, Critical Resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates, with longtime SIP certified vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery, speaks with Erin Hoffman, Partner and Senior Consultant at Collaboration Business Consulting. [00:00:37] She explains that long term exit strategies from three, five, even 10 years helps ensure a seamless transition. [00:00:44] Key considerations include how will the company evolve? Will the current management team remain in place? And who needs leadership development? [00:00:53] Aligning stakeholders, whether it's family or business partners is crucial. Addressing emotions like frustration or uncertainty. And acknowledging these feelings can ease transitions. [00:01:03] A solid game plan should outline financial considerations, role transitions, and leadership development. Regular management meetings and third party reviews will help maintain accountability. Ongoing leadership development and multiple succession pathways provide flexibility. Because things are likely to change, transparency in succession planning builds confidence and stability ensuring that the business continues successfully throughout the leadership change. [00:01:29] If you want to be more connected with the viticulture industry but don't know where to start, become a Vineyard Team member. Get access to the latest science based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both infield and online education so that you can grow your business. Visit us at vineyardteam. org and choose grower or business to join the community. [00:01:48] Now let's listen in.  [00:01:53] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Erin Hoffman. She's a senior business consultant and partner at Collaboration Business Consulting. [00:01:59] And today we're going to talk about succession planning. Thanks for being on the podcast, Erin. [00:02:03] Erin Hoffman: Yes. Thank you. [00:02:05] Craig Macmillan: This is part of the SIP certified certification and one that I think is often overlooked and a lot of people don't really understand, but I think it's important no matter who you are. To take this into account. [00:02:15] So let's just start from the very basics. what is succession planning in business? [00:02:19] Erin Hoffman: Great question. Succession planning is really making sure that somebody besides you is available and ready to take on the reins or responsibilities when you leave or when you get promoted. And I think one of the things that people often overlook is they want to take on more responsibilities, but they're not thinking about, okay, if I'm doing that, who am I shifting some of those responsibilities down to? [00:02:42] Craig Macmillan: I noticed you mentioned in terms of also promotion. So there may be actually be some internal things within departments even that this could be important for. [00:02:49] Erin Hoffman: Absolutely. So often we think about succession planning of taking over the business or taking over the reins of the business or managers or leaders departure that can also mean, you know, I think managers, it's important to be thinking about their own promotion or taking on responsibilities as the business grows. [00:03:05] Craig Macmillan: And so why is this an important topic for people? [00:03:08] Erin Hoffman: This is probably the single most challenging issue for managers and leaders of businesses. Something that they often come to us and say, I wish I was more prepared or I wish I would have. Been doing this a few years ago. And it, it can really be a challenge for a business because there's a lot of institutional knowledge that is held within those managers and leaders. [00:03:26] And if they were to leave the business or when they want to retire, where does that transition go? It could take years to really get somebody up and ready. So that's why it's so important to think about. [00:03:36] Craig Macmillan: I'm guessing that this looks different for different types of businesses, different sizes of businesses. How would things be different for a small, let's say, family owned, family run business, as opposed to something that's maybe a little bit larger maybe it's a corporation, still perhaps owned by the family, but maybe a little bit different structure. [00:03:53] Erin Hoffman: Great question. All businesses, it starts with having a long term plan, but let's start with those smaller family businesses. It really starts with taking a look at what is that long term plan when we work with clients, we always look three, five years, and then maybe 10 or beyond what's that eventual retirement or exit plan and starting to align those actions with that. [00:04:13] So I'll give an example of a vineyard that maybe the owner is thinking about retiring in 10 years. They should be starting to think, what does that look like? Do I want it to remain a family business? Do I want management to remain in the business? If so, do I have those people in in place? So starting to think first, what is that long term goal? [00:04:33] And then we can start to work backwards into who needs to be developed or where there might be gaps. [00:04:39] Craig Macmillan: So what does this process actually look like? Like, when a client comes to you how does this actually play out? [00:04:44] Erin Hoffman: Great question. When we work with a client on this we start exactly there, what I, where I mentioned at the long term plan. So asking the leader or business owners, , what is that goal? What is that Long term strategy, not only for yourself and your retirement, but also for the business and what you want that legacy of the business to be and getting really clear on that. [00:05:05] Often there's especially family businesses, but also non family businesses. There's partners. So getting alignment between those partners on what that long term goal is. And from there, then we would make sure that we bring in, it. Potential successors. Often these are family members, sons or daughters bringing them into that process. [00:05:24] Once the owner is clear of what their goals are, , we want to bring in that the successor to start talking about what that looks like and make sure they're also aligned with the goal. [00:05:33] So that's our first step. The couple of things that we run into when going through that process is. Uncertainty of what that looks like for the person that's departing and really working through getting that clarity. [00:05:47] The other thing that we run into quite frequently is the emotions that are tied up in these types of changes. And we work with that throughout the whole process. So when we start, we let. Folks know that they're going to go through some stages similar to the stages of grief when they go through a succession planning process and as they go through that process because they will start to feel frustration or anger or, you know, frustration that the person that they're handing it off to isn't doing it the way they want it or not stepping up. [00:06:16] So there's a lot of different planning, but also emotion that comes into it. [00:06:20] Craig Macmillan: I can imagine this must be a very scary process for a lot of folks, because you're kind of looking at what, oh, wait a minute, like what's going to happen and what's possible to happen. And then there's the question of what's the best outcome. And that's where you're talking about getting the partners and the family involved. [00:06:37] So they're all sharing that same, that same vision. How do you facilitate that step? How do you get the players to kind of come together? [00:06:46] Erin Hoffman: You know, the 1st, as I mentioned, we start with if we're working with a business owner, we start with them because it really is about their desired outcomes and timeline. But we start with individual interviews and talk with each of the key. Individuals, partners key personnel in the business and also potential successors to really understand the motivations and desires, but also the other factors that might be impacting the business, the roles, the talent, et cetera. [00:07:15] So from there, once we have a good understanding and had a chance to hear everybody one on one, we bring everybody together in the decision making team. So this would be like your owners or partners or family and discuss, Hey, here's our findings. Here's where there's commonalities. [00:07:28] Here's where there's some, there may be differences. The first step is getting everybody on the same page with what, we're trying to achieve. [00:07:35] Craig Macmillan: Are these processes normally put into place or started by the leader, the, the owner, the CEO, whatever type of business it's structured as or is there some pressure from folks that see that there's going to be an exit at some point and they're like, Hey I'd like some stability here. I don't want to wake up one day and find out that my entire world has just came crashing down which is, which has happened to me [00:07:59] Erin Hoffman: Surprise. Yeah. Yeah, that's a, great question. And the answer is both. We've had both the , owner proactively come in and say, this is something they've been thinking about. And the successor the most common thing we hear from both parties is, Hey, we've been talking about this for a while and we haven't been able to make any headway. [00:08:18] It's not so much that it's not discussed or , they don't know. It's just. It's been this vague, long term kind of nebulous goal that there's always work to be done, it's always busy, and it doesn't get picked up. So when we talk to folks, either the successor or the leader is saying, Hey, we've been trying to do this and we just haven't seemed to figure it out. [00:08:39] Can you help us? And that's where we come in and we really have a structure to be able to start to Put all the pieces in place. We find that once people have a game plan, they're really good at carrying out the plan. usually business owners only go through this once in their lifetime. So it's really, there's not a blueprint. [00:08:54] Craig Macmillan: And this plan, I'm guessing, takes the form of a written living document [00:09:01] Erin Hoffman: We have a couple documents that we come away with. So the first one is going to be a partnership agreement. So typically. If the plan is to bring somebody into ownership, there's a period of time where and this is again, this is more for ownership. It might not be in for management teams, but if if there is a period of time where there's going to be some co ownership, we want to get everybody very clear on what is the decision making. [00:09:28] What is that going to look like as partners? What's the expectation for that retiring partner? And that the process of how that looks, this is where some of the things can go south or. Okay. Get ugly for families or businesses because nobody wants to talk about the money components of it. But then if there's misunderstandings, they could go south really quickly. [00:09:47] So we get clarity on that. That's 1 document. The other document is we create a milestone document, which is a year over year, or sometimes quarter over quarter plan of these are the shifts that are going to happen in the roles. Here's who's going to take on those responsibilities, maybe even days of the week. [00:10:04] How many days a week is that person going to be working? Maybe they're starting to step back all of that. [00:10:08] Craig Macmillan: So there may be some very specific things in terms of like job description, tasks assigned. Like you said, time allotted. How do you keep track of that moving forward? Because you're going to revisit this year to year. I imagine that these benchmarks need to be hit in order to keep things on track. [00:10:26] How does that process work? You put it on the calendar. Okay, next year on March 1st, we're going to meet and we're going to go over this again. [00:10:32] Erin Hoffman: We definitely want to build in that accountability to the plan because it's really easy to fall back into the habits of just doing it the way you've always done it. We recommend at the very least. That the the leaders are having a monthly management meeting, and this is getting talked about on a monthly basis. [00:10:49] We don't wanna put it in a drawer for a year and then pick it back up. And there should be some some openness to be able to hold each other accountable of, Hey, we're behind track on this, or we need to move forward on this. Uh, So that's, that's one of the things that we recommend. [00:11:02] The other piece. Our team can come in and help or getting somebody that's maybe that third party that , you're setting a meeting with maybe monthly or quarterly, or even semi annually, just to check in of where you're at. Increase that extra accountability of yes, we're sticking to the plan. It's like seeing your personal trainer and having to say you didn't do any of your push ups. [00:11:23] Craig Macmillan: Right, right, right, right. I like that analogy. That's a good one. That's a really, really good one. Accountability makes a big difference. [00:11:30] Erin Hoffman: for sure. [00:11:31] Craig Macmillan: yeah, I've worked on projects around that before. It's fascinating. Just simply saying, I am going to do this to another person goes a long way towards getting that thing done because you, you know, you made a promise. [00:11:42] Erin Hoffman: Yeah, I get a lot of that from our clients of, Oh, Erin, we knew we were going to meet with you next month. So we, we had to sit down and like, you know, knock it out. So it's like just that accountability of. [00:11:52] Craig Macmillan: What are some of the most common mistakes businesses make around succession planning? [00:11:58] Erin Hoffman: It's another great question. , there's a few. I think that one of the biggest ones that comes to mind, especially when it's a family business or an employee to an employer where that is stepping into the leadership. Often discount that person who's stepping into the role, how much they respect the person that's already in that role. [00:12:17] Let's say they're the, you know, the owner in this example. So they, one of the mistakes is that the owner is like, Oh, I'm just waiting for this person to step up. And in the meantime, I'm just going to keep doing the role. Like I've always done. They don't realize that that person under them respects them too much to say. Move out of the way. Let me, you know, I need to do this now. [00:12:37] So they there's a natural kind of deferment and it's even if that person is your parent and it's gonna even, you know, increase that. So really understanding that that's a natural dynamic that's going to happen and that . It's we're having that plan and being able to speak to the plan on a regular basis really comes into play. [00:12:55] So that's probably 1 of , the, the mistakes as I mentioned, talking about it, but not really moving anything forward is 1. [00:13:01] I think the other piece goes back. Into the, that the stages of grief or the emotion that comes in you know, I think it can be really difficult when suddenly feeling like, okay, what is my role in the business? [00:13:15] I hear that a lot from folks that are, even though their goal, they, they have a retirement in sight and that's their goal. There's a definite frustration or confusion of, okay, what now? What's next? And so there's. Tends to be you know, they go through bargaining. We had one client that was I think they were a week away from signing off a hundred percent of ownership to his son and came in and goes, know, I think we could extend this another three or four years, you know, just like, it was like they were working the plan and, [00:13:42] Craig Macmillan: Right. [00:13:43] Erin Hoffman: But it really comes from a place of just that uncertainty and change that people run into. [00:13:48] So I think that's the other problem is when faced with that change in those emotions, sometimes they. Blame the process or the person and not that just recognizing that those are natural emotions. [00:13:58] Craig Macmillan: This is a little bit of a side, but how, how do you advise people around these emotional issues? Because you're moving from being a business consultant into being a therapist at this point. [00:14:07] Erin Hoffman: Yeah, a little bit. [00:14:09] Craig Macmillan: A little bit. A little bit. [00:14:10] Erin Hoffman: I think anybody that's in business and that, you know, deals with people realizes that that's, you know, that's the big component of it is you know, the working with people and , through all the challenges of emotions and things that happen. But One of the best things is knowing, normalizing it, letting people know this is normal and this is going to happen. [00:14:30] It really helps when somebody is going through that, those feelings to just know that they're normal and it's okay. And that they can feel it. It really is a relief for a lot of business owners, especially when they're having a consultant that's gone through it. to say, expect this to happen. It's completely normal. [00:14:49] It really can help just settle everything down. [00:14:52] Craig Macmillan: Without naming names, can you give us an example of a transition? And ownership or management that could have gone better. There's some thought had been put into secession planning earlier. Or at all. I would imagine some folks are coming to you kind of behind the curve on this, from what you're telling me. [00:15:10] Erin Hoffman: Sure. Absolutely. I think of one winery owner that came to us and he said, you know, I, I wanted to retire five years ago at this point he was in his seventies and so that that's always hard because the, the people on his team weren't. You know, I hadn't really started to develop yet. [00:15:29] So , that can be frustrating. And I think that it can be a real detriment to the business if that person just says, you know what, I'm done, you guys have it, you know, like, or I'm going to just sell it. It might not be the outcome that everybody would have hoped for. In this case you know, it worked the plan and it actually did work out well. [00:15:47] And, I went through all of the, you know, some of the challenging emotions, but actually came to us later and said, you know, I'm actually really enjoying, what I'm doing, because he was able to really scale back his role. So it's, it's never too late, but I think it's also never too early. It's always good to start thinking about this and always be. [00:16:04] And know what that long term plan is you know, God forbid unexpected things happen to have another client where, you know, suddenly a you know, two business partners and one unexpectedly was incapacitated and there was no planning, advanced planning, not really a lot of development of other team members. [00:16:21] So it took years for that partner to really sift through all of that, the challenges of building the business back up and, and dealing with that. I [00:16:31] Craig Macmillan: talking to your team, let's say you're the leader, let's say you're the owner and CEO of the company. You've been doing it forever. Like you said, people will tend not to develop unless there's space. To develop into what kinds of advice do you have for folks that are in that ownership, management, leadership to develop their team so that those folks are ready to move up to these new roles. [00:16:59] Erin Hoffman: think it's first starts with intention, so it takes the owner really sitting down and thinking through his or her role and where he'd like to see people develop and get penciling that out and even thinking about who on the team do they see the capability and the desire to develop the next step is really you know, talking to that person, making sure there's buy in we, if we don't want to create a development plan for somebody without getting them bought into that, that's actually what they want. [00:17:28] But then creating that space, I think once, you know, , we've identified some of those skills and responsibilities, we've talked to the person, then it's time to create some space. So really, it, is a little bit of for the owner or. Leader to, you know, sit back, sit on their hands a little bit, let that person take on some of the the responsibilities. [00:17:47] I always use the example of, it's like when you teach your kid to ride a bike. They're going to fumble. They're going to, you know, kind of wobble back and forth. You're going to give them some training wheels, but at no point do you get back on that little pink huffy and say, I can do it better. [00:18:00] Let me just show you how to do it. Right. You've got to, you've got to let them do it a little bit. And ideally, if you're, if you're planning ahead, As you know, any business leader should be thinking forward. You're, you're doing this in advance and building their skills up over time and not just, in a short burst where you need them to develop all at once. [00:18:18] Craig Macmillan: It's better to maybe have some swimming lessons than just to be tossed into the deep end. [00:18:22] Erin Hoffman: Yeah, yeah, exactly. [00:18:23] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, I can see that. I can definitely see that. Are there surprises sometimes that come up and there's one type of situation that I'm familiar with, I've seen before where a winery owner or vineyard owner, , they started all this mid career probably, or maybe even early career with the intention that this would be a family legacy. And then come to find out later on down the road, the family really isn't that interested in carrying on this legacy. That's gotta be a very difficult situation. If you find that you don't have your team, [00:18:59] Erin Hoffman: I, I think the one way to think about it is always have. Multiple roads or multiple plans that are going in the same direction, because it is common that somebody that you're developing decides that that's not for them and they drop out, or the family member decides that they don't want to be in that business, or that an opportunity comes to merge or to sell. [00:19:23] And that it really, you know, it's not what you thought it would be, but it turns out to be a really good solution. one of the things that we always advise is to be . Going in the path that all of these roads work out well, which is really starting to make sure that you're not the only person that knows how to run the business. [00:19:40] So if it's a family member, for example, we've had family members that say, you know what, I'm not really interested in working in the business and some businesses that were able to stay a family business, hire a general manager that was an employee and still sustain that family legacy. That's the one option, but. [00:19:56] it came from that owner being able to start to shift some of those responsibilities to, and create a clear job description of a leader or management team that could run the business. So I think always be prepared for those types of scenarios because we have seen people drop out or plans change. [00:20:15] I had one client just recently where it was an employee purchase and the employee. Kind of the final hour said, you know what? I just, this isn't for me. I don't want to move forward. And they felt like all their plans were for nothing. But they just came back to me. It was about a year later and they said, we have a new employee. [00:20:33] He's great. All of the plans that we've already put in place are. Already in place. So it's, it's already set up for us to start getting this person ready. You always want to be prepared for that. [00:20:44] Craig Macmillan: yeah, that could be exciting for a lot of folks too. I think you may be in a spot where you're in the middle and you're kind of doing your thing and you just don't really see any chance for advancement because. Mom and dad are still running the show and he seemed pretty happy doing that. If there is kind of a, a plan and a vision, I would say of where I can be in five years, I would imagine that probably helped with buy in from the whole team, I would think. [00:21:10] Erin Hoffman: That kind of speaks to another thing that business owners are afraid of, of even talking about this with their team. Oh, I don't want to talk about retirement because I might scare people and they leave, but what we found is the opposite is true. When you're sharing, hey, we're really thinking over the long term. [00:21:25] We have a long term plan. Here's potential opportunities that can be inspiring for folks. People feel more comfortable because they know that there's a plan. Don't make the mistake of being really hush, hush about it because people are more afraid of the unknown than the known. That's the fact that you're thinking about it and making plans. [00:21:42] People will feel good about it. The other thing that's interesting is especially for those family business owners out there. When doing a process like this, we tell people you have to separate the family hat from the employee hat. And because often you started the business family and working in the business is one in the same, but you have to be able to separate like what what's ownership. [00:22:07] And what are those responsibilities and what are the roles and responsibilities of an employee? Like, could I hire a general manager to come in and do these responsibilities? And then what's the responsibilities of that and risk of the owner. [00:22:21] Craig Macmillan: This is very realistic. I can imagine there's some folks who have aspects of their job that they really enjoy and they're really good at. And then if they're looking at new roles, there probably might be some things that they're not so excited about doing. And it's perfectly all right from understanding it to say, hey, this little gap here, we can fill it a different way. [00:22:38] We can meet. What the business needs in a couple of different creative ways of doing it. We don't all have to be scared and freaked out. Let's just be very clear on what it is that you like to do, that you will do, that you can do in the areas where maybe we need some help. [00:22:52] Erin Hoffman: Yep, exactly. We want to really understand knowing what the business need is, and then where people can really fit into a role where they're going to thrive and enjoy it. [00:23:01] Craig Macmillan: This reminds me again, this is from personal experience where there was a transition and the owner wanted to sell. The business and it was a family business and the general manager was family. I was a hired gun. And when he came to us and said, Hey, I want to, I'm going to sell this thing. Both the grandson of myself like freaked out. [00:23:20] We were like, Oh no, we put all this effort into this and it's all going to go away. And he said, no, no, no, no, no. You're part of the package. You are the vineyards and the buildings and all that. Then there's you, you guys are part of what I'm selling because you do such a great job. [00:23:34] Erin Hoffman: Yeah. [00:23:35] Craig Macmillan: Is, is that a real thing? [00:23:37] Like if you, if you're own a business and you're talking to a potential buyer is that buyer going to be interested in who you have and how they work and what your team is like, or is it going to be clean house? [00:23:46] Erin Hoffman: Great question. I absolutely, they're interested. So think about it. If I'm, going to buy a business, number one. If the owner is doing all of a lot of the work and has a lot of the knowledge, and I know that owner is leaving as soon as I buy the business, that's a big risk. So what I don't want is I don't want that owner to be heavily involved in the day to day. [00:24:06] And I don't want that owner to be the sole source of any information, especially about business operations. However, if. That business has a strong management team that have experience, loyalty to the business, knowledge. And when I purchased that business, their knowledge is going to come with that as long, you know, as long as I treat them well, that's highly desirable. [00:24:28] if the owner is heavily involved and there's no management team, then the business is going to be heavily discounted by that buyer, because , there's a lot of work that needs to be done to get that business up and running to the point where it's self sufficient. [00:24:43] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, I've often wondered about that because I I see two models. I see folks that have built up a business, they sell it and then they go to Hawaii and that's it. They walk away. And then I've seen businesses where the, the owner who's selling sticks around for a period of time and usually has a contract that says I will be available for these things for the next so long. [00:25:03] How long is a reasonable transition period? If I'm planning on retiring and I'm like, okay, I'm, I'm good to go. But I got to do this. How much time do I need to think I'm going to be involved? [00:25:15] Erin Hoffman: It's a great question. If it depends on if it's a sale to an outside party or an internal, you know, I think if it's a employee succession, there may be, it's going to be a longer off ramp period. And often it makes sense for that business owner to either stay on as a consultant or an employee for a period of time. [00:25:35] Not only for. The kind of retirement plans of that owner, but also for the benefit of the the business and continuing on that being said if it's an outside buyer, I would say it'll limit it at a year. , it's a real difficulty with maybe the option to renew, but I've seen some owners that have entered into longer contracts with the buyers. [00:25:57] years. And. in some situations that works out, but in some situations that they really start to change because somebody comes in and they're starting to make all kinds of changes to what was your business. You're now an employee after being an owner for a period of time. And honestly, you're kind of ready to go and do the next thing. [00:26:13] So. You think about how long can you work under that that kind of contract situation. Sometimes the financial looks positive, but lot of people are unhappy, especially if it's over a year of doing something like that. [00:26:28] Craig Macmillan: so this doesn't have to stretch out forever, [00:26:29] Erin Hoffman: It does not have to stretch out forever. And honestly, I think that, again, it can be uncomfortable for both parties. [00:26:34] The owner seeing changes and they, you know, maybe that they wouldn't have done. And then the new buyers and they're kind of. Having to be mindful of the owner's feelings about what they might be doing again. There's, there's all different scenarios, but typically when done well as a faster transition that works well, I think still being available to answer questions is like on a per contract or per as needed basis is useful, but not as a, like a contract employee. [00:27:00] Craig Macmillan: right? In all of your experience with this, is there a again, without naming names, is there a really great success story that you've seen? [00:27:09] Erin Hoffman: Yes, we've seen a lot of really great success stories, and we've seen it for different reasons. You know, I give a couple of different scenarios. One was a multi generational business. So they were actually going from 2nd generation to 3rd generation and had. By this point had a lot of family members working in and out of the business and had also some family dynamics and fighting conflict that was happening. [00:27:33] And so by getting really clear on what the expectations of that owner had and versus working in the business and what the requirements were, and really making the requirements for somebody working in the business. You had to fit the job description and qualifications. That was a huge success and really brought that family back together, but also the success of the business. [00:27:54] The other one that we've seen. Success. I mentioned earlier, the owner that, you know, a week before transitioning the business to his son was said, you know, maybe I'll stay on for a few more years they stuck with it. They, they signed it over and the business is thriving. It's, it's continuing to grow the energy of the son coming in. [00:28:16] He's developed a management team under him and. The father is now having, now that he's actually had the chance to go through it, is feeling really satisfied as being an advisor and seeing the success of the business, but not being tied to the business. He was ready to retire. [00:28:32] Craig Macmillan: That's really great. And I hope everybody has that kind of experience. Is there one thing that you would tell folks on this topic? One piece of advice or one insight? [00:28:42] Erin Hoffman: One piece of insight is. We, you know, talked about starting sooner than later, but the other one is, you know, planned for the unexpected. it never goes 100 percent like you think it will. And sometimes I'll explain it like you dump out a puzzle and all the puzzle pieces are upside down. [00:28:57] So you're just taking time to flip over the puzzle pieces and figure it all out. Plan for a few unexpected things to come in there, you know, maybe midway through your finance person decides they're leaving or the loan that they thought the buyer was going to get falls through. There's all kinds of different scenarios. [00:29:13] So I think having that flexibility and knowing that that's part of the process and planning those multiple paths is really important. [00:29:21] Craig Macmillan: That's good. Great advice. Where can people find out more about you? [00:29:25] Erin Hoffman: They can visit our website. It's collaboration llc. com. We're based in San Luis Obispo. We've been on the central coast for over 20 years. So we'd definitely be happy to talk to anybody if they're interested about this topic. [00:29:40] Craig Macmillan: Fantastic. And we will have lots of links and and resources on the show page. So please feel free to check those out. I guess today was Erin Hoffman. She is a senior business consultant and partner in collaboration, business consulting. And I just really want to thank you for being here. This is really interesting. [00:29:57] It's a topic that most people don't think about. [00:29:59] Erin Hoffman: Yeah, great. Well, thank you for having me. It's really great to talk about it.   [00:30:07] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. [00:30:08] Today's podcast was brought to you by Vineyard Industry Products, serving the needs of growers since 1979. Vineyard Industry Products believes that integrity is vital to building a long term customer, employee, and vendor relationships, and they work hard to provide products at the best prices they can find. Vineyard Industry Products gives back by investing in both the community and the industry. [00:30:32] Make sure you check out the show notes for links to collaboration, business consulting, and their informative blog. [00:30:38] Plus sustainable wine growing podcast episode. 221, future proof your wine business with omni channel communication.  [00:30:46] If you liked the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing, and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts at vineyardteam.org/podcast, and you can reach us at podcast at vineyardteam. org. Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team.   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

Managing pests like powdery mildew, downy mildew, botrytis, and sour rot can be a complex challenge. Andy Fles, Vineyard Manager at Shady Lane Cellars in Michigan, shares insights from his USDA Sustainable Ag Research Education producer grant project. The project compares two pest management approaches: a ‘soft' pesticide program and a conventional one. Andy conducted the experiment using his on farm sprayer, providing real-world results. Despite climate variability and fluctuating pest pressures, the soft pesticide program proved effective. The project underscores the potential of using softer chemistries to manage disease while maintaining fruit quality. Resources:         REGISTER: April 25, 2025 | Fungicide Spraying: Evolving Strategies & Grower Insights 80: (Rebroadcast) The Goldilocks Principle & Powdery Mildew Management 117: Grapevine Mildew Control with UV Light 197: Managing the Sour Rot Disease Complex in Grapes 219: Intelligent Sprayers to Improve Fungicide Applications and Save Money 235: Battling Fungicide Resistance with Glove Sampling Rufus Issacson, Michigan State University Shady Lane Cellars Secures $11K National Farming Grant Timothy Miles, Michigan State University Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Managing pests like powdery mildew, downy mildew, botrytis and sour rot can be a complex challenge. [00:00:10] Welcome to sustainable Wine Growing with Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic executive director. [00:00:21] In today's podcast, Craig McMillan, critical resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates. With Longtime SIP Certified Vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery speaks with Andy Fles, vineyard Manager at Shady Lane Cellars in Michigan. Andy shares insights from his USDA Sstainable Ag Research Education Producer grant project. The project compares to pest management approaches, a soft pesticide program and a conventional one. [00:00:50] Andy conducted the experiment using his on farms sprayer, providing real world results. Despite climate variability and fluctuating pest pressures, the soft pesticide program proved effective. The project underscores the potential of using softer chemistries to manage disease while maintaining fruit quality. [00:01:10] If you'd like to learn more about this topic, then we hope you can join us on April 25th, 2025 for the fungicide spraying evolving strategies in Grower Insights tailgate taking place in San Luis Obispo, California. Dr. Shunping Ding of Cal Poly will share updated results from a study on the efficacy of different fungicide programs containing bio fungicides. [00:01:34] Then we will head out into the vineyard to learn about new technologies for integrated pest management and talk with farmers from different growing regions about their program. Now let's listen in.  [00:01:49] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Andy Fles. He is the vineyard manager at Shady Lane Cellars in Michigan. And today we're going to talk about a pretty cool little project. He's got going looking into two different pesticide programs. Thanks for being on the podcast, Andy. [00:02:03] Andrew Fles: Yeah, my pleasure, Craig. [00:02:05] Craig Macmillan: So you have a grant from the USDA sustainable agriculture research and education program. To look at what you call a soft pesticide program for your vineyard in Michigan and comparing it to what we would call a sustainable or sustainable conventional program. What do you define as a soft pesticide program? [00:02:25] Andrew Fles: Well, that's kinda just a, a term that we applied to identify it. I didn't want to use organic because I thought that there would be a good chance we would utilize things that are considered by the industry to be very soft in terms of you know, they're not a harsh chemical or a carcinogenic, a known carcinogenic compound. [00:02:49] But something, for example, like. Like horticultural grade peroxide, which goes by several different trade names. So that's just, it's hydrogen peroxide and it is a disinfectant that turns into water and oxygen. So it's pretty Soft in terms of what it does to beneficials and, and plants and, and such. [00:03:11] We utilize some of those products already in our spray program. But combined also with, we're probably 50 percent organic in terms of what we spray out. for fungicides, pesticides, insecticides. And so we're still altering in some synthetic compounds. [00:03:28] And we wanted to compare that, what we currently do, to something that was much softer, like only soft compounds. Something that could be considered a OMRI certified organic program, or, or almost, right? Like maybe there's just one or two things that are very soft, but not technically OMRI certified. [00:03:49] Craig Macmillan: Right, and I do want to , get into the weeds on that a little bit later. Cause it's a, it's an interesting, Set a program that you've got going and I have lots of questions about them. What inspired this project? [00:04:01] Andrew Fles: I think just that continued movement towards investigating what works here in the east. You know, we, of course, get more wetting events and, and wetting periods that cause more fungal issues here compared to the west coast. And so we really, you know, we have to have an eye on sustainability. Certainly at Shady Lane, we really push for that. [00:04:25] But we also need to make sure that we have a marketable crop. We need to make sure the wine quality is, is high and acceptable for our standards. And so you know, if we're talking about, you know, every year is quite different here. We can get a, like, for example, in 2024, very wet in the first half of the year, very, very dry in the second half. [00:04:51] And, and then, which was quite different from 23 and quite different from 22 and so on and so forth. so, so some years we need to kind of step in and use a synthetic product here at this key time or, you know we need to protect our, our, our wine grape quality. [00:05:07] Craig Macmillan: What are the primary pests and diseases in your area? [00:05:11] Andrew Fles: So we have issues with the usual suspects that powdery mildew, of course. That's, that's fairly, I think if you're on top of your game, that's, it's pretty controllable. Even with soft products here it's just a spray frequency and coverage issue. [00:05:27] Downy mildew is something that can be quite challenging in certain years. [00:05:31] And there's, and there's less tools in the toolbox to use for that as well. And so you gotta, you gotta be on top of that with scouting preventative, like canopy, you know, canopy management practices that deter too dense of a canopy or, or clusters that are. hidden behind several layers of leaf. [00:05:53] Those are going to cause problems for you no matter what you're spraying, synthetic or organic, right? So, so we try and utilize all those things and and then we, we can also have issues in some years with botrytis and even sour rot and tight clustered varieties. So, so we were looking at sour rot and botrytis in the, in the cluster analysis of this portion of the , project. [00:06:18] Yeah, we have some locations can struggle with grape erinium mite. That's becoming more and more prevalent here. Wasn't an issue four years ago. Not, not really up in, up in northern Michigan anyway. So that's becoming more and more of an issue. And then we always struggle with rose chafers. It's a, it's a grub that, you know, comes out for six weeks and really terrorizes the vines. [00:06:49] And for that, for that pest, we really walk the line of the economic damage threshold, right? So, so a little, you know, we're going to see rose chafers every year. Some years are better than others. And what is our acceptable damage, you know? And so, once we see the rose chafers really getting dense in number, and also, you know, munching on a few leaves is one thing, munching on the clusters and the shoot tips is another thing. [00:07:21] Craig Macmillan: That's what I was going to ask. Yeah, I'm unfamiliar with this this pest. It, skeletonizes leaves, but it also will attack flower clusters and, and grape clusters in the early stages of development. Is that right? [00:07:34] Andrew Fles: Pretty much all green tissue. Yeah, a bunch of shoot, shoot tips leaves are probably, you know, their preferred source, I think, but anything tender. And so if, if the timing is just right where the, the inflorescences are, are you know, just coming out when the, when the beetles hatch, then they can really go for those cluster tips and, and shoot tips. [00:07:59] While we're scouting for this pest, we not only do the, you know, the density numbers and annotate that, but we look at, you know, how many are actually eating leaves versus shoot tips and clusters. [00:08:13] Craig Macmillan: Interesting, interesting. What is the design of your project and what varieties are we talking about? And what kind of variables are you measuring and how are you measuring them? [00:08:25] Andrew Fles: this is a farmer grant as opposed to a research grant. , it's tailored to folks that want to do on, on farm trials. And we want to do. Something in a significant enough volume, you know, that, that some that it would apply, it would be more applicable in the real world. [00:08:45] So for example you know, at a university they might do this randomized plots, you know, and they're using a backpack sprayer because they're, they're applying you know, three vines here, three vines there, scattered all throughout the block. And we wanted to use the sprayer that we actually use. [00:09:04] Um, and we wanted to do a bigger sections. And so what we did was we broke it up into two acre sections and we did two acres of both the traditional, the conventional program that we normally would do here and the soft treatment. So we did two acres of each in pinot noir, two acres of each in a, in a French American hybrid called ol, and then two acres of Riesling. [00:09:33] And we wanted to look at powdery, downy, botrytis, and sour rot. [00:09:38] In certain years, we can have quite a lot of botrytis and sour rot pressure in those three varieties. Because Pinot Noir of course is tight clustered. Vignole is even tighter clustered despite having that French American disease resistance package. It, it doesn't possess that for Botrytis or Sour Rot. [00:09:58] and then of course Riesling is a, is a very, it's probably the number one variety in Michigan. And as we all know, it's susceptible to Botrytis. [00:10:08] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. Big time. [00:10:10] Nice design. Great varieties to choose. I think that was really, really smart. How are you going to quantify these different variables? How are you going to measure the damage? [00:10:18] Andrew Fles: So for Powdery and Downey we just kind of did a scouting assessment. You know, how, prevalent is the infection based on how many leaves per, per per scouting event? I think off the top of my head, it was like 25 leaves. Per block that's more, I guess, anecdotal which we, and we did see that in the Pinot Noir, it was pretty clear cut that we struggled to control Downy in the soft treatment more so than in the conventional treatment. [00:10:50] It was, it was pretty clear there. And then as far as the Botrytis and Sour Rot, so that's really where the MSU team came in with the, the Rufus Isaacs lab and Dr. Rufus Isaacs and his master's PhD candidate. They did a lot of work there and, and then also the Tim Miles lab , so basically what they did is they took 25 clusters of each treatment and they did an assessment , for of course, how many berries were infected by, by botrytis and sour rot. [00:11:25] And then they also took those clusters and they hatched them out to see how many Drosophila species were there. [00:11:33] Craig Macmillan: Oh, okay. Yeah, good. That's interesting. [00:11:36] Andrew Fles: Wing drosophila here in Michigan and so really it was just the two species of traditional vinegar fly, drosophila, and then spotted wing. They did, you know, the, the statistics on that. [00:11:50] Craig Macmillan: interesting. And this is, this is a multi year project, right? [00:11:54] Andrew Fles: This was just one year. [00:11:56] Craig Macmillan: Just one year, okay. [00:11:58] And when will you have final results? [00:12:01] Andrew Fles: I have some of those already. We're going to do like a more formal presentation at a spring meeting here, a grower meeting, that's kind of co sponsored between MSU Extension and a local non profit that promotes grape and wine production in the area. So yeah, we're going to make a presentation in April on on the results and, and kind of, we're just continuing to, coalesce and, you know, tie my spray program with wedding events and then the results that they got as well. [00:12:37] Craig Macmillan: What other kinds of outreach are you doing? You're doing the meeting and you're doing other things? [00:12:41] Andrew Fles: I haven't discussed this with with Rika Bhandari as the PhD student. I suspect that she would use this in some of her publishing, you know, whether it gets published, I don't know, it's part of her Her main focus is sour rot, so this will be included in some of her presentations. [00:13:03] But I don't know that for a fact. [00:13:06] Craig Macmillan: That's exciting to get some information that's local. It's locally based and get it out to the local community as well as the broader community. I think that's really important if you don't mind I would like to get into some of the nuts and bolts of these two programs because I found that to be very interesting And then as we go talk about How that panned out for the different pests and diseases that you saw in these trials Let's talk about the soft program first You've got a dormant oil app in May and I assume you mean that there would be like JMS stylet oil or something like that [00:13:41] Andrew Fles: I think it was called bio cover. [00:13:43] Craig Macmillan: Bio cover and that's a pretty standard practice in your area I would guess [00:13:48] Andrew Fles: It is, yeah. [00:13:49] Craig Macmillan: and then the following month in June You, uh, have copper in the mix. In both the traditional and in the soft chemistry. I'm guessing that's also a common practice in your area. Probably for downy and for powdery. [00:14:06] Andrew Fles: Yeah, the copper is is something that we've been leaning towards and getting away from some of the synthetics. Which stick better to plant surfaces, we've been migrating that way anyway, these last numerous years now and so, yeah, , there are some similarities between the two programs at times it's really those key times of pre bloom and post bloom and variation that that we've traditionally. [00:14:34] Really locked in on some of the synthetic chemistries here [00:14:37] Craig Macmillan: And then also in June you have a Serenade Opti, which would be a Subtilis based material. And I believe that's also in your conventional in July. That's pretty standard practice, and that's an OMRI certified product, I believe. [00:14:52] Andrew Fles: Yes, yeah. [00:14:53] Craig Macmillan: There's some overlap there. It looks like the Rose Chaffer comes out around this time. [00:14:59] Andrew Fles: Yeah, probably it's not in front of me, but probably mid june [00:15:04] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, that's what you have here. In the traditional you've got a, a neonic, a sale. And then in the program, there's kind of a question mark here. What did you end up using in the, in the soft program for a roast chaffer? [00:15:19] Andrew Fles: Let me find it here [00:15:21] So we used neemix 4. 5 [00:15:26] Craig Macmillan: Nemix. I'm not familiar with that. Is that a Nemo based product? [00:15:28] Andrew Fles: Yeah, it's a neem oil [00:15:30] Craig Macmillan: And then in the traditional you have a neonic, a sail. Did you see a difference in Rose Chapter damage between the two? Because this is a pretty big difference here. [00:15:39] Andrew Fles: a pretty big difference in terms of [00:15:42] Craig Macmillan: Well, the modes of action obviously are very different. [00:15:45] Andrew Fles: Oh, sure, sure. Yeah, we had a little higher a little higher prevalence of rose chafers in mostly in the Pinot Noir treatments. Not so much in the Riesling, and I think that's largely because of black location. Traditionally the Pinot Noir block is our worst, one of our worst blocks in terms of rose chaffer rose chaffers are these beetles. [00:16:09] Of course, they're very similar to Japanese beetles for those listeners that, that may know that, but they really thrive in sandy soil, which is what we specialize here in northern Michigan, sandy based soil, right? [00:16:22] , and especially in un mowed fields. Right? We've really been trying to manage , our headland spaces like a prairie even more so upon joining SIP and, and learning more about making a comprehensive farm plan of, Of all of the land, right? And so we've really managed our, headlands and open fields like prairies which means minimal mowing, [00:16:47] like once a year is what we, we just mow to keep the autumn olive out. And and so we're trying to promote, you know, bird life and, and. All forms of life in these fields, which includes and sometimes an increase in rose chafers. [00:17:03] However, this 2024 was, was a. Fairly low pressure year. [00:17:09] And so I was very comfortable with, with sticking with this the soft insecticide. And we didn't feel like, you know, even though we saw this, this increase in pressure in the soft treatment, it wasn't surpassing the economic damage threshold that we are really keen. [00:17:27] And right. IPM [00:17:29] Craig Macmillan: So, true IPM. [00:17:31] Andrew Fles: IPM is very important, here, you know, where we have all these insects and it rains a lot and, you know, you got to really. Be ready to to, to scout and then react. [00:17:41] Craig Macmillan: Exactly. Yeah. And knowing what your economic injury limit is, I think it's huge. And your action threshold based on that. Tell me a little bit about the Spinosad based products. You have a couple in the soft that I assume are meant to be insecticides. [00:17:55] Andrew Fles: Yeah. The delegate. Yup. [00:17:56] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, Delegator and Trust. [00:17:59] Andrew Fles: I'll talk a little bit about intrepid as well. That's probably a foreign thing for any, any West coast listener, but that's intrepid is a it's a molting regulator and it's essentially for, in this case, for grapes, it's for grape berry moth. And this is an insect that is very difficult to do IPM on because there's a, there's kind of a morph that lives in northern Michigan that doesn't Go for the traps and so you can put traps out and it you just have no idea what's going on Because they just don't really care for the pheromones so they're really almost impossible to trap and I've talked numerous time with dr Rufus Isaacs about this and how do we you know get a handle on populations and you know They just can't get their traps to work up here. [00:18:50] We target with the intrepid, it's a, again, it's a molting regulator, so it just prevents them from developing, and it's very specific it's not a broad spectrum, so that goes on as a preventative where we have blocks near the woods, [00:19:05] because we see great berry moth coming in from wild, wild vines [00:19:10] that may or may not be in the woods, but we Where we see larva hatching is, is just kind of a perimeter. [00:19:16] So what we'll actually do is a perimeter spray. We don't even spray the whole block. We'll spray the outside row or two or three of each end. And then we just kind of blast it in. Along the, the other, you know, along the posts, the end posts. And that seems to work fairly well. [00:19:34] Craig Macmillan: Huh. [00:19:35] Andrew Fles: And then, as far as Delegate goes and Entrust those are Spinoza based products like you mentioned. [00:19:42] Those are primarily, you'll see that we put them on, well, I don't know if you can see timing, but we put them on. in September. Yeah, at the end of the season. September. [00:19:53] Yeah. Yeah. So, so those go on right around or right before even version and that is for drosophila [00:20:01] I think there's been some research recently from Cornell and then also Brock University in Canada. And I know also that Tim and Rufus have been doing trials here in Michigan as well. between the three of us out here in the, in the Northeast we're very focused on sour rot. [00:20:19] And so Michigan State along with these other folks have done these trials where they found that including an insecticide at veraison or, and then also at about 15 bricks significantly reduces sour rot infections. And that's because you're going after one of the vectors. [00:20:39] Craig Macmillan: Interesting. There's another material that I wasn't familiar with. I did a little bit of research on it. That's a product called Jet Ag, which is a hydrogen peroxide, a peracetic acid material. You have that in both the soft chemistry and your quote unquote conventional section. Is that a material you've used for a long time? [00:20:57] Andrew Fles: Yeah, we, I forget when exactly it started coming around I think probably 2015, 16 is when it was maybe released or made its way to northern Michigan and kind of coincided with with some sour rot. Issues that we have had off and on over the years with Pinot Noir or Vignole. And it's a, you know, it's a strong hydrogen peroxide. [00:21:23] It's a heavy oxidizer. It goes in and it, it, it cleans everything up. You know, it disinfects. And there's, there's some thinking as well that it, it'll kill the yeast. And some of those yeasts, the aroma is very attractive to spotted wing drosophila and regular drosophila. And so if you're, if you're kind of this is probably something that, that people, you know, that rely on native ferments might not want to hear, but you know, it really, it really disinfects the fruit which, which is key for You know, controlling sour rot. [00:21:59] And so we've used that over the years as both a preventative and a curative treatment. [00:22:05] Craig Macmillan: Right. [00:22:06] Andrew Fles: I didn't actually end up using it this year because It essentially stopped raining it was almost west coast ian here in the fall. It stopped raining in August and it didn't rain again. [00:22:19] You know, I mean, aside from like just a, you know, very, very light mist that wouldn't even penetrate the soil deeper than a centimeter. You know, so we didn't get any appreciable rain. From, I think it was maybe August 5 or 10, all the way till November 31st, or sorry, October 31st. [00:22:39] Craig Macmillan: Actually, that raises a good question. So, what is the summer precipitation like, quote unquote, in a normal year or an average year? [00:22:48] Andrew Fles: Yeah, we've been having, [00:22:49] Craig Macmillan: is it? [00:22:52] Andrew Fles: it's so variable is the, you know, we keep coming back to that. Every season is different here and it's so true even in Northern Michigan we have seen climate change affecting our summer rainfalls. So, whereas, you know, traditionally, and I say traditionally as maybe like the 80s and 90s maybe even early 2000s, you would expect to see, you know, a good four to eight inches a month. [00:23:20] you know, less, less so in, you know, in July and August is walking that more like four inch. Four inches of precipitation and you can get that sometimes in two different days [00:23:33] Craig Macmillan: Wow. [00:23:34] Andrew Fles: And that could be all or it could be spread out, you know over over several 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 different events. we had a dry June a couple years ago, I think we, I think it rained two days and amount to much. [00:23:50] And 2023, all of May we had, it rained one day. It was very dry. And so it's really been a roller coaster here in terms of what to expect as far as precipitation comes, I mean during the growing season anyway. [00:24:08] Craig Macmillan: Mm hmm. [00:24:09] Andrew Fles: It's been a challenge to know, you kind of have to have all these tools ready, right? [00:24:13] You have to have your jet ag ready. [00:24:15] If you get a bunch of infections going you got to have some of these other products ready and just , be ready for anything essentially. [00:24:24] Craig Macmillan: That, I'm just kind of reeling, I'm from California, and so like four to eight inches of rain during the growing season, it sounds like a fungal disease disaster to me. I'm impressed that you can get a crop, a vinifera crop to, to harvest with those kind of conditions. [00:24:39] Let's talk about the sustainable conventional program a little bit. Again copper appears early which would make sense. Then the insecticide portion would be a sale. It's a neonicotinoid, and then you've got a couple of fungicides in here. [00:24:55] You've got sulfur, and you've got a boscalid. Then in July again you've got a subtilis, that's serenadopty, and the, the intrepid, the IGR. August, you've got another neonic rally, and then you've got a product called ranman, or ranman. Which is a Sazofenamide, again, traditional fungicide. And then Inspire Supert, verasion, very common. And then you've got the the JetAg and Delegate, which is an antispinosid based product. When I look at this, I see a lot of very safe, very smart, very rotated fungicide chemistries here. Was this the kind of program you were using previously? [00:25:34] Andrew Fles: Yeah. And you know, it always can change a little bit. Sometimes you can't get a certain product or you can't get it in time. [00:25:42] Uh, whereas, you know, you, you're planning to use X product for your, for your kind of like You know, your, your pea sized berry spray, let's say but you, all of a sudden you have a bunch of rainfall, you know, and, and so if I was planning to use Quintech, which only covers powdery all of a sudden I have this big wedding event that was just perfect for growing downy mildew I I might switch from Quintech to and vice versa, you know, if we're, if we're into some weather, that's really favorable, it's time to push more of those serenades and you know, we've used some of the other biologicals over the years as well and, and just trying, trying to go that way as much as possible, but, you know, sometimes the weather forces your hand, like, like it did this year, you'll see in my, In my program we went into some Randman and some [00:26:35] Zampro, and those are those are very specific to to downy mildew. [00:26:41] You know, but we're still, with those products, you know, they're more expensive than something like Kaptan, you know. We Can't spray that with sip and we didn't spray it before because we don't want it on our fingers [00:26:56] The vineyard you and I don't want it in our lives So so we're always trying to go the ran man route, even though it's a little pricier, but it's very Target specific for Downey and so, you know with all the rains that we had in June and July and early July we felt like the smart play and we did start seeing some downy mildew cropping up much earlier than normal. [00:27:21] If, if we see it at all, that is. in that, at that point you want to make the call, you know, Hey, I want to get out in front of this thing. I don't want downy on my fruit. You know, if you start seeing it on growing tips, I think it was the 4th of July or the 2nd of July or something we were scouting and we were getting a lot of rain at that point and it was very humid and it was just like rain every other day for about a week there and it's like you gotta pivot and, and make the move to something that's really going to provide. control there. [00:27:52] For the soft program at that point, we were trying to use, I believe we use serenade, you know, which is more broad spectrum as far as biologicals go. We knew we wanted to keep it going after the, , the Downey with the soft chemistry. And that's why we got into the orange oil as well. [00:28:10] Craig Macmillan: Oh, interesting. [00:28:11] Andrew Fles: to, Yeah, that's, that wasn't in the proposal that I sent you, but we did pivot. I couldn't get. The cinerate it was, I was told it was on the West coast, growers were hoarding it and none of it, none of it made it over this way. I was really hoping to get my hands on some of it. [00:28:28] I've already pre ordered my 2025 cinerate. [00:28:32] Craig Macmillan: And Cinerate is a cinnamon oil based product, right? [00:28:36] Andrew Fles: Correct. Yeah. Cinnamon oil. oil. Yeah, it's another oil. [00:28:39] Yeah. Yeah. It's another one of those kind of antimicrobial oils, if you will. Um, So we pivoted to, to orange oil and thyme oil. TimeGuard has been, is a product that's been out for a number of years now. We've used it before, , we haven't really relied on it as much in the past. As, as we did with this soft treatment. [00:28:59] Craig Macmillan: Tell me a little bit more about what the outcomes have been at this point. We talked about the the pinot noir a little bit. We talked about the Rose Shafter showing up there a little bit more. At, at the end of the day, the end of the season. How did you feel about it? How did you feel about comparing the two [00:29:15] Andrew Fles: you know, it felt, it felt really good. It seemed like the soft program kept pace with the conventional for the most part. In the Pinot Noir, we had we had some more rose chaffer damage, of course, but without doing a, a full on research trial, it's hard to say that it was the treatment alone because of, as I mentioned, the location was a big factor. [00:29:38] With the downy mildew, it seemed to be a little more prevalent, certainly in the Pinot Noir on the, on the soft program that is but it never got to the point and I was, I was always ready to go in with whatever I needed to, because we don't want to have a defoliation and not being able to ripen fruit, you know, the fruit and, and especially in such a great growing year. [00:30:01] we never really resorted to. You know, breaking the glass and, and grabbing the ax and running out there and like, and it was emergency, you know, we never, we never had to do that. There was a moment there in July where, you know, where would the downy pressure we thought maybe. [00:30:19] Maybe we would have to abandon it, but then things dried up and we kept after things with with some of these, these things like thyme oil and orange oil. Getting good coverage with them is so important. But getting those on at the right time really seemed to provide enough control. [00:30:37] Craig Macmillan: Actually that's a, that's an excellent point. Let's talk about the phenology a little bit. How, for the varieties that you're growing, how big are these canopies getting? What's the spacing that they're planted on? How many gallons per acre are you using in your spray applications to get good coverage? [00:30:54] Andrew Fles: Yeah, so for the purpose of the project I stuck with 50 gallons an acre throughout the season. Which even, even for the conventional portion, traditionally I'll, I'll start with 30 gallons an acre aside from the dormant spray, of course, but like, you know, early season sprays until the canopy becomes a little denser, , I'll be at 30 gallons an acre and then probably mid July post bloom, right around bloom, perhaps , we'll ramp up the conventional to 50 gallons as well. [00:31:26] For the purposes of this, we just did 50 gallons across the board, both treatments. a lot of the canopy is well, it's really all VSP except for the vignole. Vignole is high wire cordone. And then we're talking nine by five spacing. The vinifera as well, which is pretty common around here. Double geo some spur pruning. We've really developed a kind of a hybrid system where we do a little bit of, we kind of mix cane and spur , , and alternate those in, in some of our venefera programs. [00:31:57] Craig Macmillan: And in, on the same plant? [00:31:59] Andrew Fles: Yeah. Sometimes. [00:32:01] Yeah. [00:32:01] Craig Macmillan: one side, gator the other. [00:32:03] Andrew Fles: What that does for us you know, where we get. Or we can at least, you know, and we can, sometimes we can lose a whole cane , or a lot of buds. I don't want to get too in the weeds on, on what that system is, but, but it's really developed around being able to quickly replace and adapt to cold damage. [00:32:24] And so if we need to go in and cut a trunk out, we've already got a cane growing from down low, if that makes any sense. [00:32:31] Craig Macmillan: No, that does make sense. And it's a practice that I'm familiar with from other areas in the Midwest, the North, the Northeast. Very, very smart. But that's a very different canopy architecture than you might find someplace that's all VSP. Or, you know, a double canopy situation maybe like in New York. [00:32:48] How comfortable are you now? After going through this, it sounds like you liked the softer program, you feel you got good control on most things. But if I'm understanding you correctly, you're not afraid to keep some other, other tools in the toolbox, basically. [00:33:05] Andrew Fles: Right. Yeah. And I think a big purpose of this program was to investigate some of these products. I want to highlight Problad Verde as well. [00:33:14] That's. Another one that's been out there and we've used it before as well. You know, I did a trial with Tim Miles's lab on and Rufus doing a sour rot trial in Pinot Noir in the past with pro, and it was just kind of a end of the season application of Problad with I believe we use delegate or in trust. [00:33:34] I can't remember. One of them and, this project, the SARE project was really looking at problad as being more of the backbone , of it. And, and so we ended up using that for the soft treatment pre bloom, post bloom. And then again, at version, because it has similar to jet egg, it's kind of a disinfectant, right? [00:33:57] It's this lupine seed extract that, that is a. That is a disinfectant and so it's going to go in, but because it, it's advertised anyway as having some systemic activity, [00:34:09] Craig Macmillan: Mm [00:34:10] Andrew Fles: systemic properties, that's, that's key for us in the east here. Because, hey, if we get a half inch of rain, well, it's still kind of in the leaf or it's still in some of that green flower tissue. [00:34:24] Before it opens up and blooms and so, really working problad in as instead of a kind of just end of the season toy it's really became, became the backbone of the tritus control for us in this, in this trial. And then again, looking at some of these oils, I think there's a lot of promise for. the orange oil in particular, I've, I've been seeing more and more research coming out about how you know, it does work on Downy and we did see that you know, even though we had an increase in Downy infection man, it could have been a lot worse. It was still at an acceptable level. [00:35:02] And so I think, I think I'm going to feel more and more comfortable using those products. [00:35:07] Craig Macmillan: You've demonstrated to yourself. And that's what the, that's how it works, and that's what everybody needs, to have some confidence. Which I think is really great, I was very impressed by the idea of trying things that maybe are not widely used, were not widely tested outside of maybe the West Coast, and to be able to show efficacy on your property, I think is really important. [00:35:27] I think it's one thing many of us have learned about softer materials. They may or may not work depending on what your pressure is. And that can vary region to region, but it can also vary within a region. It definitely can vary year to year, so having that flexibility that you've built into this program is very admirable. What would you say are the big picture benefits of the soft pesticide program at this point? [00:35:48] Andrew Fles: Hopefully just to increase awareness of, of how they can be effective for folks here in Michigan or, or similar climates, New York and Canada, I should say I don't think , this SARE project alone is, is going to be any sort of groundbreaking news, but I think it's just another verification and if we start to have more and more of them people will believe more and more in these products because it's just, it's at that point, it's word of mouth, right? [00:36:21] It's more and more growers are starting to back it. And, or experiment with it at least and, and see results, I think a lot of growers are very word of mouth oriented anyway. [00:36:34] So, uh, so it's very important, like, Oh, Hey, what did you try last year? And I think there's plenty of that going on in our area. [00:36:42] A bunch of us anyway, we seem to network pretty well and, and trust each other. , Oh, I use this at this key time and it really proved effective. So I think just bringing more and more awareness to these soft programs or these soft products, I should say. , and I can't really speak to the sustainability of. Farming lupin seed for for a fungicide product, you know, I can't, speak to that, but I want to believe that it's, it's a more sustainable product than, you know something that was made in a factory and, and might have petrochemicals in it. [00:37:19] Craig Macmillan: Well, it might have resistance issues as well, I think is one of the key things. And by the way, both programs I thought were very intelligent. I think like in terms of the frack rotations in the sustainable one, I thought that was really well done. Is, is there one thing that you would tell growers? [00:37:35] What's the one takeaway you would tell people from this project? You just kind of touched on one, but is there a message here for people? [00:37:43] Andrew Fles: I think the message is, you know, that we have to be really careful in crafting our. Spray program to the season that we have. If we were getting A lot more rain in September than what we ended up having I mean, we were, we were in pretty severe drought here. I think the soft program could still work. [00:38:03] But you have to choose the product and probably apply it much more frequently. You know, you have to go in and respond to those rains. , or even maybe perhaps be ready to pivot to something that is synthetic and systemic and curative. You know, maybe you have to go in with a hammer, but that doesn't mean that, you know, the majority of this growing season can't be done in a very soft way. [00:38:30] And so we're really just responding to that weather. But I think if this is our focus , to use these softer chemistries on things that we're going to drink or eat, even if it's vegetables, I think that these products are becoming better and better and there's becoming more and more of them, which is really encouraging to see you know, 10 years ago, maybe we had serenade and And you know, a couple of other products, but now, now there's, they're really becoming prevalent. [00:38:58] And so I think the take home is, is crafting that spray program with these new found tools that we have. Problads, , your crop, , your what, what should I call them? Like your aromatic oils, lack of better term, like orange oil, thyme oil, cinnamon oil. You know, I think these things do have a place. [00:39:17] Craig Macmillan: Where can people find out more about you? [00:39:19] Andrew Fles: Well, they can visit ShadyLaneCellers. com and there's stuff in there about our farm and in what we do and where we are, who we are a little bit. And then also there will be, and I could get you this information if you're interested, so this spring meeting where we're going to present the results of this believe we'll have a Zoom link option. [00:39:43] Craig Macmillan: As a reference date, this is being recorded in February of 2025. And so spring meeting will be coming up in a few months from here. I'm not sure when this will air, but even anything is fantastic. So I really want to thank you for being on the episode. Our guest today was Andy Fless, he's Vineyard Manager at Shadyland Cellars and you've been a great guest. Hey, thanks for being on the podcast. [00:40:03] Andrew Fles: My pleasure, Craig. Thanks a lot for having me. [00:40:08] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by Martinez Orchards. Martinez Orchards is one of the most trusted and respected names in the nursery business. They have earned that reputation through years of hard work, honesty, integrity, and a commitment to their customers. They provide support with their knowledgeable salespeople and highly experienced production team. They know successful plantings allow them to fulfill their promises, and they strive to build lasting relationships with their customers based on a foundation of mutual steadfast trust. [00:40:40] Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Andy at Shady Lane Plus. Sustainable wine Growing podcast episodes 117. Grapevine Mildew Control with UV Light 219 Intelligent sprayers to improve fungicide applications and save money. And 235, battling fungicide resistance with glove sampling. [00:41:03] If you liked this show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts@vineyardteam.org slash podcast and you can reach us at podcast@vineyardteam.org. [00:41:16] Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard team.   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

Social media like Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and LinkedIn can feel like a lot to handle. Emma Tessler, Founder & CEO of Ninety Five Media, has some great advice to help you stand out online. She says it's important to have a clear brand message so your customers always know what to expect. Instead of trying to be everywhere, Emma suggests being consistent on just one or two platforms. To streamline your work, you can take one big piece of content, like a long video, and turn it into different things like short videos, blog posts, and podcasts. Then use platform's data to see what people enjoy the most. Resources:         138: 5 Tips for Your Wine Brand's Social Media | Marketing Tip Monday 140: Does social media impact wine sales? | Marketing Tip Monday 144: Are you using the right message on social media? | Marketing Tip Monday 198: 3 Ways to Talk About Sustainability on Social Media Becoming an Industry Expert on Social Media Emma Tessler | LinkedIn Ninety Five Media Ninety Five Media | Instagram Stop Scrolling, Start Scaling Podcast Turn Your Expertise into More Sales by Becoming a Thought Leader on Social Media, with the Ninety Five Media Team (podcast) Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Social media like Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and LinkedIn can feel like a lot to handle. Welcome to Sustainable Winegrowing with Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Bets Vukmanic executive director.  In today's podcast, Craig McMillan, critical resource manager at Niner Wine Estates with Longtime SIP Certified Vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery. Speaks with Emma Tessler, founder and CEO of 95 Media. Emma has some great advice to help you stand out online. She says it's important to have a clear brand message so your customers always know what to expect instead of trying to be everywhere. She suggests being consistent on just one or two platforms. To streamline your work, you can take one big piece of content, like a long video and turn it into different things like short videos, blog posts, and podcasts. Then use the platform's data to see what people enjoy the most.  We know your customers are looking for sustainable wines. In a recent review of 30 studies, customers reported a higher preference for eco and social responsibility labels compared to nutrition labels. Achieving SIP certified gives you third party verification that your vineyard, winery, or wine has adopted and implemented stringent sustainable Standards apply for certification today by going to SIP certified.org and click on Get certified Now. Let's listen in.  [00:01:39] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Emma Tesler. She is the founder of 95 media. And today we're going to talk about social media. Not surprisingly welcome to the podcast, Emma. [00:01:48] Emma Tesser: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here today. [00:01:50] Craig Macmillan: First of all, let's talk a little bit, get some kind of grounding. How would you describe your company? 95 media? [00:01:55] Emma Tesser: We're a digital marketing agency and we really specialize in creating high converting content. We work with a lot of brands who are posting all the time and just simply not seeing results from that content. So that is usually where we come in and we build out customized strategy. High converting content, build that connection with their community and ultimately finally have their marketing convert into sales for them. At a high level, 95 media is a marketing agency specializing in social media, email and podcast production. [00:02:27] Craig Macmillan: I'm kind of a dinosaur. So what exactly comes under the umbrella of social media? Because that seems to be a pretty big area. [00:02:37] Emma Tesser: It is, it definitely is a big umbrella. So when we talk about social media marketing, we're referring to any marketing content. Content that is marketing a brand on any of the social platforms we manage, profiles for brands on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, Pinterest, TikTok a few other more specific ones to different industries. And really social media marketing encompasses your content, your engagement with your audience, the data that comes in from the content. There are a lot of different. avenues when it comes to your marketing and social media in general, but it is broad. And I think that sometimes that's the overwhelming part about it for some individuals and founders, people who are looking to market a brand, but it really doesn't have to be that complicated. You can really. own one platform really well and see better results by doing that than doing five not so well. [00:03:31] Craig Macmillan: Excellent. And different platforms with these companies, websites, et cetera, that you just discussed. And then content. I wanted to have you kind of elaborate on that a little bit because some things are videos, some things are just audio, some things are just text , what is content and what do we put in content? [00:03:53] Emma Tesser: Well, content looks different as you said, , between different platforms. So there's always opportunity to repurpose content, but oftentimes that looks like reformatting content as well. I'm a really big believer in. Having consistent brand messaging across all of your content, all of your platforms. And sometimes that looks like having the same messaging because when we have consistent messaging across every piece of content, it creates a consistent brand experience for our audience to know who we are and ultimately be able to identify our content without like our brand name on it, which is a whole other level of success. When we look at the individual platforms, You know, Tik Tok is a video only platform. And over on LinkedIn, some people don't think that that's really a video platform, but in fact it is. And LinkedIn is really favoring video content to the point where they actually have a video only feed on the app. Now that looks very similar to Tik Tok because they see the success that's happening over there, like every other platform. So what I would just encourage, if you're looking at content and you're thinking, Well, how do I do this on all the platforms and do it well? And it not be my entire life. I would look at creating one piece of content and then splitting it up into different formats. For example, you could take one 30 second video on a topic of something that, you know, really well, and you could. Reformat that video to be long form. It could be short form. You can write a blog post about it. You can make it a carousel for Instagram. You can pick one photo and transcribe that video into your caption. You can make it into your Instagram stories. You LinkedIn article on it. There's so many ways to go about really looking at how can you repurpose your content and have so many different formats of just one idea. [00:05:42] Craig Macmillan: Why is this important for business? Why can't I just go along like I've always gone along? Maybe I've got a website, put some stuff on there, print advertising, et cetera. Why is social media so important? [00:05:57] Emma Tesser: Well, the reason it's so important is because the way that consumers are finding and discovering brands has shifted. Prior to, you know, call it five years really has been the biggest shift that we've seen on social, but really just this shift towards social media marketing, which has been in the works since about 2015 or so. We used to discover brands through going to Google or through word of mouth. You know, we work with a lot of brands who come, we were like, We used to be just referral. Like we used to get all our business through referral, you know, local, this local, that, and it's just dried up and it's not working the same way it used to. And that is because we're moving towards this culture of social search. There's data that shows that in the last 90 days, 91 percent of consumers used social media and only 84 percent of people went to a search engine like Google. So what. We used to discover on Google, there's actually more people discovering brands on Instagram , than they are in Google today. So in order to stay competitive, in order to be found and to be showing up in the searches that people are typing in and using keywords that maybe you were once showing up on, on Google, you now need to have your content be showing up on Instagram, on Tik TOK, on LinkedIn. So in order to continue growing, it's really a non negotiable going into 2025 to have a social media presence and to have it. optimize to meet your consumer where they're at. [00:07:21] Craig Macmillan: You may have actually kind of already touched on this or answered this. I was thinking that, you know, if you just have an Instagram account, does that count as a social media presence? Do I need to be on all these different platforms? And it sounds like what you're saying is it's better to kind of focus on one or two or three and do those really, really well, rather than try to be everywhere all the time for everybody. [00:07:41] Emma Tesser: Yeah. And I say that because consistency is everything. So if you have the bandwidth for three separate posts per week, it is so much better to have those three pieces of content live on Instagram, then spread it out. So you have one on Instagram, one on LinkedIn, one on Tik TOK, because one post a week is not going to do. Literally anything for you. You need to have consistent quantity of content going out there. So I would really look at one platform and optimize. And strategically approach that platform so that you're finally getting results there before you add on additional ones. Because you'll be able to take the data from that successful content to know what your audience is looking for and begin to just redo that type of content in different ways for another platform down the road. [00:08:30] Craig Macmillan: A friend of mine does a lot of Instagram and she says I've got to have at least one thing per week, one thing per week. Is that a good time frame? Do I need to be posting more often, more frequently, shorter bits? What's the, what's the best strategy? [00:08:43] Emma Tesser: So I don't recommend less than three posts to your feed every week. Less than three posts per week. Again, that's to your feed. That doesn't count like Instagram stories outside of that. But when we look at your feed, the reason why you want to have more content than once per week is because what happens when you post is that the algorithm puts your content out there and it's like, dangling it in front of your audience. It's waiting for people to bite and engage with that piece of content. If they do, then that piece of content starts being shown to more people. If they don't, it then gets suppressed and the algorithm says, Oh, well, people aren't really liking this. We're not going to show it. But when you post more, you have more opportunities for people to bite and to get more people seeing your content. AKA brand awareness. Really, every piece of content you're looking to increase your brand awareness because that's your top of funnel. You have to get more reach. You have to get more impressions in order to bring people down the sales funnel to the ultimate conversion point. So more content ultimately just results in more brand awareness, more engagement with your content, more eyes on your brand, which is truly the goal in order to get more people to buy as a secondary result of that piece of content. [00:09:57] Craig Macmillan: this sounds like getting to folks who are outside just your followers. And, and trying to find new folks to come into your herd, into your house. [00:10:09] Emma Tesser: How do we do that? Is that the question? [00:10:11] Craig Macmillan: Well, no, I was just trying to clarify. So what it sounds like, cause like, I've always been like, Oh, how many followers do they have? And then I'm like, well, how do you get new followers? It sounds to me like maybe it's not just about followers. It's about just exposure in general. [00:10:22] Emma Tesser: It's definitely not about followers. To be honest, that's the metric that I care the least about. We don't work with brands who just want to grow their followers because it's, it truly does not have an impact on your bottom line. What has an impact on your bottom line are the conversations that you're having, the engagement with your content, you know, engagement also looks like your DMS too. Like if you're not looking at your DMS as an opportunity to sell, you're missing a huge opportunity. Your content can only do so much for you. A couple of years ago, your content could do the heavy lifting, but now a huge part of marketing your brand is really your community engagement. And that's the missing piece for a lot of businesses that like, we kind of come in and we change the game for them because A lot of what we do is actually getting into the account us as humans, getting into the account nurturing the people who already know about them to bring them closer to the sale. But really a huge part of our work is outbound engagement and bringing in new eyes to the business. And we do that through starting new conversations, leaving comments on people's content, getting in the groups that your ideal client is in and engaging with that content so that they see that comment. And then go back to your profile. So there's a lot of different angles you can take, but at the end of the day you're trying to increase awareness of your brand, which oftentimes look like your, your reach of your content and your profile. Because ultimately that number has to be bigger for the amount of people who go to your profile to increase and then follow you and then engage with your content and ultimately buy from you. So we're looking at like this funnel down where you have to start with a big pool of people because. We know that only a very small percentage of those people are ultimately going to buy. And that's okay, but we're only going to make as much of that percentage as we increase the, the top line the top line number. [00:12:08] Craig Macmillan: In terms of attracting folks there's a concept that you've mentioned in your on your website and your podcast and your blog, which I think is really interesting, and that's the idea of authority and how important it is to be viewed as an authority in the digital space. How do you define that? Like, what does authority look like? What does it do for you and how do I build it? [00:12:29] Emma Tesser: Authority really means that you're standing out in your industry. . There's not very many original ideas anymore. There's not very many original things that we can all be doing. , if you look at 95 Media, for example, there's a million and one people in social media marketing these days. But what makes us different is the way that we approach our content, the way that we approach our clients businesses, the way that we execute our work, and ultimately what that results in is building authority. Building authority can happen in so many different ways, a great way of looking at it is just leaning into the, how you do things and what makes that different. There's a lot of noise on social and it's easy to feel like You're in a space that's too saturated and it's not worth creating the content because you're just going to get lost in the noise. The thing is, if you have authority and if you have that unique factor to who you are and who your brand is, you do stand out. And that is ultimately going to be the reason why someone chooses to buy from you rather than the person down the street who does the exact same thing. So rather than hide and Hush down the things that set you apart. I would really lean into them because that is really what's going to A make you stand out, B, give you authority and C it drive more sales for you. [00:13:47] Craig Macmillan: How do I identify the things that are going to make me stand out? when talking about like the wine business, or the vineyard side, everybody makes wine. Everybody farms. What's the process that I can go through? Like with one of your clients, how do you help them identify what makes them stand out or what makes them interesting? [00:14:04] Emma Tesser: . So we actually work with a client in the wine space right now. She is a female founder in California where there's not a lot of female winemakers. It's a really unique space and that's a huge part of their mission as well. . Obviously, if you're a mission driven brand leaning hard into that, because the people who care about that mission are going to be your target demographic for buying your product. And that's a really big part of her marketing is, , we're here for female founders. We're here for being inclusive. We're here for, you know, really raising awareness around an audience that. isn't always spoken to on social in that space. If you aren't a mission driven brand, nothing wrong with it, but I would look at your company, your team. If you have like a tasting room associated with your, company, or if you do anything different or slightly unique in any part of your process, sometimes we get caught up. In the details as founders, as business owners, and we start to think that like everything we do is really boring, you know, like, nothing about my day is unique, nothing about the way that we do things is unique, but truly take that step back, maybe ask your team or ask like a really loyal And buyer for you. Ask someone in your life or like a business coach or someone like, what do you think makes us stand out? What do you think makes us different? Because I would bet to say that someone else is going to be able to easily identify those things for you. Given 10 minutes, because they're on the outside looking in, it's really hard to see it when you're in it, but that is also one of the great benefits of Working with an outside marketing team because that's their job. You know, we come in and we identify those factors for our clients in that exact way because it's easy to see it on the outside. And also knowing what matters to your target demographic can help you get closer to that understanding too. [00:15:49] Craig Macmillan: How do I know who my target demographic is? Hahahahaha [00:15:57] Emma Tesser: job. Like that's, that's the whole business, right? I mean, it's, it's easy to say like, well, you know, most people drink wine, but I have limited knowledge of the wine industry and I don't know that the majority of wine drinkers are women, right? So even if you just started there. Now you're focusing on 50 percent of the population rather than 100%. And then could you get a little bit more detailed? Could you look at a more specific age range? Could your branding tell you something about the age range that you're targeting? And then you really just kind of go from there. Not to mention, if you have an existing social media presence, you can go into your analytics and it will tell you who's following you. [00:16:29] Craig Macmillan: And you can use that data to further inform your ideal client avatar. How do I identify what platforms are gonna be best for me? There's, we've talked about this a little bit, but how do I know whether I should focus on video or podcast or blog posts primarily? How how can I decide whether it should be photo? [00:16:47] Craig Macmillan: How do I kind of guess at like which type of content, not content itself, but what form it's in, is probably gonna be most effective for me. [00:16:56] Emma Tesser: the truth is that video is necessary. And that's not the answer anyone wants to hear, but it's not really an option going into 2025, unfortunately, if you want to look at it like that. The thing about video and why I say that is because every platform is favoring video content. So if you back up, like, could you get away with not doing video content? Sure. But will you be competitive against everyone else in your space? No, you won't. Your content is going to get lost because the video content that your competitors are posting are going to get so much more reach, so much more engagement, connect so much more deeply with the target demographic that you're also after, that your photo content is just going to get lost in the shuffle. Then that's going to leave you feeling like it's not worth it. And then you're going to stop posting and then it's never going to work for you. So I would say. Commit to the video content no matter what angle you're taking with your content on social media. And then if you look at a podcast, you know, video is an aspect of podcasting as well. Podcasts give you so many opportunities to reformat and repurpose the content. But I would. Really put your investment, whether that's time or money or content investments into social, your email list things that you have more control over and that are more popular right now versus something like a blog, which is going to be a really long game. It's going to take time to compound versus you're going to get quicker dopamine hits and successes from social or your podcast. So it's, it's an easier thing to kind of start and stay committed to longterm versus a blog, which just feels like you're talking into a void and not going to see the results from for a long time. [00:18:34] Craig Macmillan: Right, right. What about length? That's a conversation I've had with a number of people in terms of like, short and tasty is nice, but then also there are folks that are looking for a little bit more in depth. They're looking for a little more complexity in the story that you're trying to tell. What are your feelings about that? [00:18:50] Emma Tesser: it really goes back to your target demographic. There's not really an overarching answer, I would say, because different. Age ranges, different demographics, different, like, groups are looking for different types of content. What I would recommend doing is testing a variety. So take, like, 90 days to test some short form, meaning like, 10 second videos or shorter, and then test some 30 second videos, test some 90 second videos. On TikTok, you can post up to 10 minute videos, like try everything and see what's hitting with your audience because your audience is going to tell you what's successful versus someone else's audience might like something different. I would probably lean into say that your shorter form content is going to perform better simply because it's going to keep the attention of your audience longer. And what's really important. is actually your watch rate. So how much of the video did your audience watch? You're simply going to get a higher watch rate on a 10 second video than you are in a 90 second video. And so therefore that success metric is going to look like your shorter form content is more successful. But if you get, you know, more comments on a 90 second video, then that's something to consider as well. But I would just really try it all because your audience is going to give you that data on what they really like and what they want more of. [00:20:07] Craig Macmillan: This just made me think of something because it's a constant battle for me personally. Quality. Quality of production , you see things on Instagram, for instance, I'm on Instagram. I'm not on TikTok. So I see Instagram and some things are just really slick. I mean, they look like Hollywood production and other things are just stuff people shot on their phone and you know, maybe it's not quite level and the light's not perfect and et cetera. Maybe the music's not so great. How important do you think the production value is to that success rate? I love having people finally move down the funnel. [00:20:42] Emma Tesser: I would say I think it has a small impact, but it does not have the biggest impact. And I say that because on Instagram, really on any social platform, we're all craving this authenticity from the creator on the other side of the screen. We actually offer a service called quarterly content shoots where we go to our clients and we shoot three months of video content in three hours with them. So it is done, it's batched, it's ready to go. And we shoot all of that content on our iPhone because we don't want it to feel like there's a team between the brand and the person on the other side of the screen. Is there a time and place for professionally shot video? I do. I believe so. You know, we work with a lot of like interior designers and architects where you want to have that professional video shot of like your finished product, home, space, whatever that is. But does that need to be the only type of video you post to social? Absolutely not. Because that is not going to be the content that creates resonance with your audience. That doesn't create connection with your audience. There's just a lot of opportunity to be a little bit more. Real and at the same time care about how the video looks right. Like if you were to see this video right now, I have lights on me, but we're shooting it on my computer. This is not like a high def camera by any means. And I shoot all of my content with good lighting, but all of my content is shot on my iPhone. So there's different ways to improve the quality without spending thousands and thousands of dollars on like a high def camera or, you know, hiring a videographer. None of that's needed.  [00:22:09] Craig Macmillan: That's good news. How much time investment are we talking about? So you're saying like three posts a week. But we're talking about short form, very short form. There may be a little bit in camera editing or in phone editing possibly, but not a lot. You don't have a lot of a lot of tools there. If I'm trying to do this myself, there's going to be a steep learning curve on how to do it. And then to create that content is going to take some time. And obviously this is where your company comes in, but like what kind of time investment could somebody expect if they're like, Oh, okay, cool. I'm going to take him as advice and I'm going to do this [00:22:40] Emma Tesser: Well, if you're looking at just the content, you have to consider all of the aspects, right? So you have to consider , strategizing your content, planning it recording it or creating the graphic, writing the caption, doing your hashtags, scheduling it out getting it posted. There's a lot of different aspects when it comes to just creating content, quote unquote. So I would say roughly you're probably looking anywhere between five to seven hours just on the content side of things. There's a lot of variables in there. You know, are you writing a short caption or you're writing a long caption? How long is the video? How many graphics are you making? But I would say for a beginner, probably five to seven hours on the content side of things. Um, Yeah, per week. And then there's the whole other aspect of, well, now you need to engage with your community after you post it. So, I always recommend an hour of engagement on every posting day. So you'd be looking at an extra three hours a week. So, you're really looking at eight to ten hours a week on your content on the very minimal side of things. And You know, listen, a lot of founders don't have that time, and that's why social media marketing does fall to the wayside, and it becomes the last thing on the to do list, which is, as you said, where we come in, and that is why companies like ours exist, because it, it is such an essential part of business today. And it's very time consuming. So it's kind of one of those things that you can't live without, but also it's very hard to find time for it to begin with. [00:24:05] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Which actually brings us around to your story. Your, biography page about us is kind of interesting. How did you get into this? [00:24:15] Emma Tesser: I found social media marketing when I was actually in college for interior design, I was going for my degree in design and I was like fully, fully thought that that was my career path. Had no doubts about it. And then social media marketing kind of fell into my lap when I was working for somebody else. And that was back in 2015 when, you know, marketing on social was. laughable. No one thought it was serious. No one saw the potential, but I really saw opportunity when I discovered it. I was like, hold up, why are we not all doing this? Like, why do brands not see what is about to happen here? And it just really like lit a fire in me. Cause I was like, this is about to explode and I want to be a part of that ride. I really like side hustled, like so many entrepreneurs, I side hustled for five years while I was in the design industry. And then when COVID hit. Brands finally started to wake up and be like, Oh my gosh, like social is the thing that we need. It's the only way we're going to reach our consumer. 95 media really kind of scaled during 2020 and it's just been on an upward journey since then, but it's really because of the impact that social is able to make on our, on our clients, brands, and that is just. What keeps me coming back in the craziness of everything social and how it changes every single day as we all feel. It's really the impact of social media that is so exciting and really rewarding to be a part of. [00:25:35] Craig Macmillan: You were simply asked to take on this task and then you learned it from scratch. [00:25:40] Emma Tesser: I did. [00:25:43] Craig Macmillan: Well, that's inspirational. That's inspirational that [00:25:45] Emma Tesser: Well, to be fair, back in, in 2015, there were a lot less features and there was a lot less like messiness on social. And there, but at the same time, there was. So little educational content on social media marketing. So I actually like podcasting was a huge part of my own education, learning social media marketing. I was listening to like the OG marketers, like Jenna Kutcher and Amy Porterfield back in 2015 in their starting days. And they're still creating content today, but it was really hard to learn. And today there's so much education online about social media marketing, which is beautiful. It's just a little overwhelming because there is so much opportunity out there at the exact same time.  We all have to learn marketing to some degree. It's just depends on how far you want to go down that journey before you're like, okay, it's time to hire somebody else to do this for me. [00:26:30] Craig Macmillan: I want to come back to something because I just thought about it. You mentioned data. I'm a, I'm a data person. I love data. Yeah. All kinds. First of all, how do I get it, and then what do I do with it? [00:26:41] Emma Tesser: Yeah, that's a, it's a great question. If we just look at Instagram in particular, cause obviously it's the one that we all know the best Instagram gives you an insane amount of data on everything that you do down to like every single post, every single story that you put out there, it will give you. tons of information on your audience's reaction to that content, including how was it found? What type of people were engaging with it? What were the actions that they took with it? You know, so much. The part of your question that's so good is what do I do with that information? , what do I do from here? I see it. Like, I know it's there, but like, what do we do? What I would recommend doing is actually looking at that data on a weekly basis and then monthly doing a little bit of a zoom out as well, because week to week, your content's really going to fluctuate. You're going to see a lot of like big ups and really low lows and you're going to panic and you're like, well, nothing's working. But really when you zoom out on a monthly basis, you get to see, okay, here are trends. The trend is showing me that video content is far surpassing any photo that I put out there. I got to do more of that or you know, I, I created some graphics this month, but graphics are actually really not doing well. So I'm just going to lean more into just single photos or video content and omit the care, the graphic content for the next month and see how that does. So Cool. Really utilizing that data to say, let's do more of this. Let's stop doing that and then test all over again. It's a lot of A B testing with your data. [00:28:08] Craig Macmillan: That's fascinating. That's interesting., what's one takeaway that you would have, you'd tell growers, or winemakers, or winery owners, founders, on this topic? [00:28:17] Emma Tesser: Well, what I would say specifically to this audience is that your demographic, whether or not you're super clear on it or not, but your demographic is looking for your product on social, like without a doubt, your target demographic is on social. They're buying products on social. And your job is simply to meet them where they're at. That's it. So if you can just get consistent content up there, I can nearly guarantee, this is not legal advice, but I can nearly guarantee that you will see more conversions from your content. The problem and the thing that really holds a lot of brands You know, in this space back is just a lack of consistency and an understanding of who you're talking to. But in fact, your audience, like the female audience, you know, from 21 to like 60 who's drinking wine, like it's a big demographic. They're on social and they're the primary buyers for their household. And not only that, but they're the ones consuming the product. So that is like a win win win across the board for this industry. It really just means if you can get your messaging down and you can create content that really resonates with that audience, you have a massive opportunity to tap into sales that you've never been looking at before. [00:29:27] Craig Macmillan: And I can get a sense of that resonance by looking at my data and seeing who's watching what and when. [00:29:32] Emma Tesser: Yeah. Exactly. [00:29:35] Craig Macmillan: Fantastic. Emma, where can people find out more about you? [00:29:38] Emma Tesser: Yeah. So our website is 95media. co. We're on every social platform, but Instagram's my favorite. It's 90. 5. media all spelled out N I N E T Y. F I V E. media. And we post nearly every single day, so you can find us whenever you're at on, on the platforms. And we also have a podcast, it's called Stop Scrolling, Start Scaling, where we share all things marketing. So if you want to dive a little bit deeper, that's a great show to tune into as well. [00:30:03] Craig Macmillan: Fantastic. Well, I guess today's been Emma Tesler. She's founder and CEO of 95 Media. Fascinating conversation. Thanks for being on the podcast. It's been really fun. [00:30:12] Emma Tesser: Thanks so much for having me.  [00:30:17] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by Vineyard Industry Products. Serving the needs of growers since 1979. Vineyard industry products believes that integrity is vital to building long-term customer, employee, and vendor relationships. And they work hard to provide quality products at the best prices they can find. Vineyard industry products, gives back investing in both the community and industry. Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Emma at 95 Media and their popular podcast. Stop scrolling. Start Scaling Plus sustainable Wine Growing podcast episodes, 138 five tips for your wine brand. Social media 140 the social media impact wine sales. 144 are you using the right message on social media and 198 three ways to talk about sustainability on social media. If you like the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcast@vineyardteam.org/podcast and you can reach us at podcast@vineyardteam.org. Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard team.     Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

Every wine enthusiast has different preferences, behaviors, and levels of investment in their pursuit of great wine. A few years ago, Wine Intelligence identified six distinct consumer segments in the US market and we wondered “how can we tailor a message of sustainability to align with these differences?” Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values. In this Throwback Thursday Marketing Tip, we're revisiting the six wine consumer segments and giving you tips on how to most effectively share your sustainable story with each one.   1. Engaged Explorers Who are they: Young, adventurist, frequent wine drinkers who love to try wines from different regions and producers. Talk SIP: Tell them how you improve your soil quality and how the health of your land influences the characteristics of your wine. They'll love learning how nature impacts a high-quality wine.   2. Premium Brand Suburban Who are they: Mid- to older-aged enthusiasts who know a lot about wine. They may not be big spenders, but they can be die-hard loyalists. Talk SIP: Get technical! Talk about how fruit quality is measured (Brix, pH, and TA). They'll love the insight and attention to detail.   3. Contended Treaters Who are they: Mid- to older-aged drinkers who don't drink often, but when they do, they are willing to spend more. They are knowledgeable and involved, and look for an engaging story to relay to their social circles. Talk SIP: Give them fun sustainable tidbits to share with their friends, like a specific sustainable practice from your sustainable story worksheet. Worksheet for Print | Worksheet for Electronic Filling   4. Social Newbies Who are they: Young, new to wine, and rely heavily upon recommendations and valued information. Talk SIP: Stick to the 3 P's of sustainability: People, Planet, Prosperity. They'll love this 360° approach and be able to pass it along with confidence.   5. Senior Bargain Hunters Who are they: The largest segment of wine drinkers in USA. They have strong wine knowledge and tend to select from a narrow range of styles and brands to meet their expectations on value. Talk SIP: Talk value-driven sustainable initiatives like monitoring utility usage and recycling programs.   6. Kitchen Casuals Who are they: Very infrequent wine drinkers who stay close to what they know. Talk SIP: Stick to the basics of what sustainability is and how drinking sustainable wine is a win for the people and the planet. We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program. This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing your Sustainable Story today!     Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team. Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Marketing Tips eNewsletter Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic What's your Sustainable Story? Whitney Brownie | Get YOUR Sustainable Story Featured Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Tiny microbes have a big impact on wine quality. Aria Hahn, CEO and co-founder of Koonkie, Inc., discusses the exciting work her bioinformatics organization is doing in the field of metagenomics. Hahn explains the differences between genetics, genomics, and metagenomics. She shares insights from a project studying yeast populations in British Columbia's Okanagan region, revealing the diversity and distinct clades found on wine grapes. The conversation also covers the broader applications of bioinformatics in agriculture, including regenerative farming, soil health, and potential bioprotectants against wine spoilage. Hahn underscores the impact of microbiome management on wine terroir and the potential of bioinformatics in understanding and improving winemaking processes. Resources:         201: Balance Hot Climate, High Sugar Wine with Green Grape Juice aka Verjus 243: Microbial Communities in the Grapevine 251: Vine SAP Analysis to Optimize Nutrition Aria Hahn – Google Scholar Aria Hahn – LinkedIn Koonkie Make Better Wines with Bioinformatics The Microcosmos - Discover the World of Genomics Apple App Whole genome sequencing of Canadian Saccharomyces cerevisiae strains isolated from spontaneous wine fermentations reveals a new Pacific West Coast Wine clade Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Tiny microbes have a big impact on wine quality. [00:00:09] Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I am Beth Vukmanic, Executive Director. [00:00:19] In today's podcast, Craig McMillan, Critical Resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates, with longtime SIP certified vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery, speaks with Aria Hahn, CEO and co founder of Koonkie Inc. [00:00:35] She discusses the exciting work her bioinformatics organization is doing in the field of metagenomics. Hahn explains the differences between genetics, genomics, and metagenomics. [00:00:47] She shares insights from a project studying yeast populations in one of British Columbia's wine growing regions, revealing the diversity and distinct clades found on wine grapes. [00:00:58] The conversation also covers the broader applications. bioinformatics in agriculture, including regenerative farming, soil health, and potential bioprotectants against wine spoilage. [00:01:09] Hahn underscores the impact of microbiome management on wine terroir and the potential for bioinformatics in understanding and improving the winemaking process. [00:01:19] We know your customers are looking for sustainable wines. In a recent review of 30 studies, Customers reported a higher preference for eco label and social responsibility labels compared with nutrition labels. Achieving SIP certified gives you third party verification that your vineyard winery or wine has adopted and implemented stringent sustainable standards. Apply today at SIP certified. org. [00:01:46] Now let's listen [00:01:50] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Aria Hahn. She is the CEO and co founder of Koonkie, Inc., a bioinformatics organization, business, doing all kinds of exciting stuff. Thanks for being on the podcast, Aria. [00:02:02] Aria Hahn: Yeah, so excited to be here. Thanks for [00:02:04] Craig Macmillan: We're going to get into the thick of it But we were attracted to some work that you folks and your colleagues have done with bioinformatics and yeast, wild yeast. But I wanted to drop back. A little bit first to kind of give some context. All of this kind of comes under the umbrella of metagenomics, correct? [00:02:21] Aria Hahn: Yeah, absolutely. [00:02:22] Craig Macmillan: and what is metagenomics? [00:02:24] Aria Hahn: I'm going to take further step back and talk about genomics um, maybe the distinction between genomics and genetics. [00:02:32] So genetics is something I think most people kind of understand. They have this intuitive sense of it. um, that make up ourselves and all living creatures. But it actually turns out that in most organisms, and not bacteria, and we'll get there in a Most of your DNA is not in genes. It's in between genes. And so genomics is the study of genes and all of the things that are in between genes. So that's kind of the distinction between genetics and genomics. And then metagenomics is when we do that at the community level. [00:03:02] so you could do metagenomics of humans, but metagenomics refers to populations of bacteria, uh, microbes, archaea, viruses, things that you cannot see and I'll say interact with directly. [00:03:17] Craig Macmillan: And then bioinformatics is a subset or is a technique, is that correct? [00:03:23] Aria Hahn: Yeah, it's a technique, you know, it used to be even 10, 15 years ago that everyone kind of did their own bioinformatics. And so really what that means is when we sequence DNA or read that DNA, so it's only four letters, ATCs and Gs, we extract the DNA the sample is, could be the surface of grapes, uh, a human, anything. [00:03:42] Um, Then we put it on a sequencer. There's a bunch of different sequencing technologies right now. Um, But you end up with these like very gross files that aren't openable on regular computers and they're literally just ATCs and Gs. And so bioinformatics is the cross section of high performance computing and biology. And so we develop algorithms and processes and pipelines to really take those gross huge files of ATCs and Gs and make them human readable. make them interesting, figure out, you know, what are the genes that are there? Who is there? What are they doing? And who's doing what? [00:04:19] Craig Macmillan: Okay, and I think that's the important part here is you would take a sample from the environment. We'll talk about this one more in a second, but there are particular sequences that may be associated with a certain type of microbe or even a particular genus or particular species of microbe that can be detected. [00:04:39] Aria Hahn: Yes, absolutely. [00:04:40] So a genome is all of the DNA that makes up that organism. So you and I have distinct genomes, but of course, our genomes are going to be pretty similar to each other compared to a human genome, to a fish, to a plant, to a [00:04:55] Craig Macmillan: why the focus on microbes? [00:04:57] Aria Hahn: Yeah, that's a great question. It depends how philosophical You want to get You know, people are generally [00:05:02] familiar with the concept of like the Higgs boson particle. It's like the God particle that makes up everything and that's great and the physicists are gonna come for me. But when we think about our planet Earth, I always say like If there is a god particle on this planet that is alive and that we interact with, like, it's a microbe. [00:05:21] This is their planet. They were here long before us and they will surely be here long after us. So we think about microbes in terms of they are the destroyers of higher level populations. They keep us healthy. They make us I'm going to say it's a great example, but it wasn't a great thing. [00:05:40] So caveat that. But COVID was a great example about how this is not our planet where we had an of a virus in one location in a very particular place in the world. And all of a sudden it was across the planet. We are vectors for them. [00:05:58] You know, looking at those maps and showing the spread and how quickly it happened, I like to use that often in visual presentations to say, if you don't believe me, like, look at this. It's spread through us. [00:06:10] Craig Macmillan: Right. And I think also this gets to some other things we might talk about later on, but there are communities of microbes that are associated with certain macroorganisms. [00:06:23] Aria Hahn: uh, so are, they're everywhere, they're on your um, there's lots of research in the cosmetic industry that's looking at that. There was this crazy CEO years ago where he was I'm gonna slather this microbial laden cream on my skin and then I'm never gonna shower again and I'm not gonna smell. Not necessarily like my cup of tea, I love a good hot shower. But, you know, it can be there. The soil is the microbial diverse environment on the planet. , But your gut, like you, you as a human being, can't actually digest your food without those microbes. You can't get those vitamins and nutrients that you need without that community in your stomach. [00:07:03] Plants work the same We say charismatic macrofauna, eagles, whales, things that are very Um, They, they don't to, you the seaweed and the weeds and the grass and kind of everything in between. it's All supported by the microbiome, by these microbial communities. [00:07:20] Craig Macmillan: so let's talk about one microbiome in particular, and that would be populations of yeast that we find on wine grapes. [00:07:29] Aria Hahn: Yeah, yeah. So we've looked at yeast and bacteria and they're both cool. [00:07:34] Craig Macmillan: That is super cool. And so this one particular project where you looked at yeast on wine grapes in British Columbia Tell us a little bit about that project [00:07:41] Aria Hahn: there's, So I live in I'm, I'm right in the thick of, you know, BC wine country, which is a fantastic place to live, we were fortunate enough to work with the Wine Research Institute out of the University of British Columbia, Vivian Mease Day's group. them and They do very, very cool work, but they were trying to look at the yeast populations in wineries across the Okanagan region. [00:08:02] We know that the history of lots of commercial. Yeasts are actually from oak trees in Europe. So that's very cool. And what we wanted to see is how are the yeasts that are being used to produce wine in the Okanagan region distinct and similar to commercial yeasts and yeasts that have been characterized from across and so We did just that and we were actually able to sequence a whole bunch of yeast. And so, again, that's like reading the genome effectively there. so we found four distinct clades, um, in the Okanagan region. And a clade is they're related groups, and so it's not like you and you're a twin where you might have an identical, uh, genome to a twin. [00:08:50] It's more like you and your cousins and second cousins and second cousins twice removed and, you're, you're kind of vaguely related to each other. You kind of cluster over here, but you're not necessarily super We've kind of found four clades that the 75 yeast strains that we studied in that particular piece of work Really related to, then we looked at like what is different in their genomes. [00:09:12] So they're all the same species. That's the first thing to, to think about here. So just like you and I are the same species, they're all the same species, but just like you and I, we have different areas of, of specialties. Some people podcasters. Some people are, artists and scientists and, um, kind of everything in between. [00:09:33] And we need everybody. So, we're all the same species, but we have different specialties. And the yeasts work very similarly to that. [00:09:40] Craig Macmillan: all right, so this is interesting to me so You go out and you you said when you looked at 75 species of yeast or different types of yeast Those are ones that you, you found. It wasn't like you went in and said, I want to test for each of these 75. You got information, you got data in and said, Oh, look, here's 75 different types of [00:10:01] organism. Yes, that's a, that's a great Um, so, we And we uh, the ferment or the, the yeast skins and we extract the DNA and then we get rid of the great DNA, which could probably also be really cool, but we didn't look at it in this case. And kind of threw that into the and then said, okay, we're just going to focus on the Saccharomyces cerevisiae Latin term for a very common yeast strain, um, used in wine. And we said, we're going to look for it. [00:10:30] Aria Hahn: Then we found actually hundreds and . And then, um, and I didn't do this work, I don't do a lot of lab work myself, so, uh, this part is kind of the edge of my knowledge. But there is some ways to kind of do microsatellite clustering. And so you look, and you look for tiny differences in the genome, and you say, okay, maybe we found 500, but we actually want to look at ones that are distinct from one another. So we don't want to randomly pick 75, we want to pick 75. strains of this yeast that are different from one another. [00:11:01] And so you could use some lab techniques to make that happen. And then you take those hundreds and we say, these are the 75 that we know are different. We're going to dive deep into those 75 so that we can kind of get this breadth of genetic diversity from the region. [00:11:18] Craig Macmillan: And that was something I was thinking about. You mentioned you took samples from either fermenting wine or recently fermented wine or from skin material. How exactly is this collected so that you know that you're getting just [00:11:30] what you want? [00:11:31] Aria Hahn: Yeah. Painfully is the answer. So like when you do soil sampling, it's actually really And we tell people all the time sampling for yeast or microbes is not that complicated. I say every single time we talk to a client, I'm like, look, wash your hands with ethanol, you know, hand sanitizer, essentially between rinse your tools. And mainly you can't mess this up as long as you don't spit in the bag or bleed in the And I say this every time, and I will say one out of every few hundred samples is full of blood. Hands down like you always think we always the that and then hands down. We're like, this is full of And I think it's just like a matter of working in the field like people nick themselves They don't really realize that but really that kind of thing is really easy [00:12:15] When it comes to sampling a ferment that can also be fairly easy. [00:12:19] You have a lot of it You can kind and put it in a jar, but I will Um, Jay Marknack, who's done a lot of this work and developed a lot of these methods, he actually developed this method that is painstaking. Um, But you have like, he's got this method where he takes the grapes really carefully without touching them off of the and then washes just like very carefully with these like rinse solutions to really just get the microbes and yeast that are on that surface without touching it, without touching other surfaces. It's really just what was there in the field. And rinse all of that off. And you can imagine that's not that fun of a Um, And, and, and so, and it wasn't like he did it on his first try either. So he's now developed that we're copying and using, thank goodness. Uh, But it can be like that kind of painful where it's like washing individual grapes, collecting that rinse water, and then filtering that rinse water, like onto a physical filter, then extracting the DNA from that filter. [00:13:18] It's not fast. [00:13:19] Craig Macmillan: Nope, that's what I wanted to know. I've collected a lot of soil samples in my life for looking at soil microbiome. And you know, technique is everything. You know, contamination will mess you up pretty badly. [00:13:29] Aria Hahn: We had this one study I felt so bad, but they had collected these samples. They sent us the samples and we get the data back and it's, they're soil, they should be teeming with life, right? [00:13:38] And there's like one species basically in this thing, like there's a handful, but like one is dominating. So we go to them and we're like, what is going on here? And they're like, well, I don't see how that could have happened. , we've been storing these in a dark closet for a year. And we're like, that's why. You are studying bottle effects right here. And they're like, oh, we thought it'd be fine because it was dark and cool. And we're like, yeah, but it's not open to the air, and it doesn't have the plants and animals and bugs. You grew one guy. [00:14:07] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. We've been talking about bacteria, or the yeast. Are there other types of organisms, microorganisms, that you can use this technique with? [00:14:14] Aria Hahn: Totally. So you can use this technique on basically anything that's alive. So you could target viruses, uh, not something we've done on wineries, but could absolutely do it. You can target, , archaea, which are very similar to bacteria in that there are a single cell. But they are similar to eukaryotes. [00:14:32] So things that are bigger, um, like us, like mammals, like fish, Uh, but they are kind of small and invisible, , to the naked eye like bacteria. So those, we can, we can do that all the way up to, any animal that we can see, feel, touch, , and kind of anything in between. So it's a really powerful technique. As long as it has DNA, we can make this work. [00:14:53] Craig Macmillan: So you found these 75 types? of yeast organisms, but they fell into groups, they fell into clades. And I thought that was one of the most interesting things about this. Can you tell us a little bit about the natural history of behind these clades and kind of what that means? [00:15:09] Aria Hahn: We found these 75 different strains and they did group into four clades. So four kind of groups of more or less related organisms. So you can think of them as like clustering based on similarity. [00:15:22] The first one was one that is well known and well studied. So that's wine and European. And so those strains are more similar to these that we see in wines out of Europe and commercial strains. [00:15:35] And then the second clade we saw was the trans pacific oak. So a lot of wine yeast are very closely related to yeast that are found on oak trees. And so actually think that, , the original, , European wine yeast strains from, you know, the 1800s are from Mediterranean oak trees. And so it's not uncommon that we see these strains related to oak. [00:15:59] So that was the trans pacific oak. Then we see another group or clade that we called beer one mixed origin. And so we saw similarities to known previously studied yeast strains that are related to beer, sake, so other kind of fermented drinks. also kind of expected. [00:16:18] And then what was really exciting is that we found a new clade that we've designated the Pacific West Coast wine clade. it's always neat when you get to discover something new, of course. And so it has high nucleotide diversity. And so what that means is that even within this clade we do see a lot of genetic diversity kind of in there. [00:16:38] And what we do know is that that whole clade shares a lot of characteristics with wild North American oak strains, but, and this is kind of where like it all kind of comes full circle, but we also see that it has gene flow from the wine European and Ecuadorian clades. It can mean a couple of things. So it could mean that There is just so much selective pressure when you're, when you're trying to make good wine that these genes that are found in European wine strains, commercial wine strains, they're present in Saccharomyces cerevisiae in general, but then when we try to make good wine, we select for strains that have these, genes, , that we know produce good wine, because they produce good wine everywhere. [00:17:27] And so it could just be this process of natural selection. It also could be that most wineries , are not purists. It's not that. never in their history have other wine strains visited their their vineyards. They might have tried a commercial strain. They have wine from others, you know, people track things in, animals track things in. And so it could just be that there is this gene flow, quite literally from, from Europe, from these wine strains that just kind of comes into our population here in the Pacific West Coast. [00:18:00] And so there's kind of these, these two ways that we could have got these things, We do have some evidence to suggest that they were actually transferred in. [00:18:07] So it's called horizontal gene transfer. And my go to example on how horizontal gene transfer works is always , The Matrix, like the movie with Keanu Reeves. But what I've also learned is that if you talk to people that are like younger than me, they don't know that movie anymore, so this only lands with like a certain age of [00:18:23] Craig Macmillan: Right, I know, I know, [00:18:24] Aria Hahn: You know The Matrix where they like plug in and then they have all these new skills? [00:18:28] Bacteria can kind of do that, where you can just take genes from, , a relative, has to be like kind of closely related, and we take them and then we just put it into their genome, and in many cases, not all, but many, they're able to just kind of start making use of those genes right away. [00:18:43] And so that's horizontal gene transfer, which is pretty cool, because for us, the second that sperm hits the egg, that's it. That's all your genes. You're not getting more. You're not losing more. Like you're, you're set. But bacteria are more fluid. [00:18:57] So there is this cool thing called the wine circle, and it's a cluster of five genes that are associated with making commercial wine. [00:19:05] And we do think because we see this wine circle and these particular five genes in so many wine strains, and because of their location and a whole bunch of other kind of genomic characteristics of them, Um, we think that they are horizontally transferred. And so we do see this wine circle of these five genes in the majority of this new clade of British Columbia strains. [00:19:33] Craig Macmillan: So just talking about moving things around the world, you said like people have things on their bodies and whatnot. I, I was fascinated by the Ecuadorian group. And is that literally like it was growing on plants in Ecuador, kind of native to that area that is found its way up the West coast of North America. [00:19:53] Aria Hahn: that's really what we thought happened. I know it is amazing, right? Like does the amount and transfer and you know how you go through the airport and they're like, you and It's like the end of the world. It's like I get it because we don't want to like do that on purpose, but also the ecuadorian yeast like it's coming up here [00:20:12] Craig Macmillan: right, right. Exactly. [00:20:14] So what I think is of interest to winemakers, and also has potential beyond that that I'll ask you about winemakers are looking for increased complexity in their wines, and they're also looking for a sense of place. And I'm really happy to hear more and more people talking about terroir, not just in terms of rocks, but in terms of the whole picture. [00:20:33] The soil microbiome, the practices that are done, as well as light and climate and all those kinds of things. What are some of the things about what you found that indicate or that suggest a uniqueness to that Okanagan area that may make it stand out as different than other locations? How does this translate into sense of place? [00:20:54] Aria Hahn: That's a fantastic question. I'm going to give two answers first on the east side. We see that many of that nucleate. don't have all five of those wine circle genes. And so we see a lot of British Columbian strains have that, but there's this whole clade of these natural yeast used in wine that don't have all five of those. [00:21:17] So then you just have different genes to work with. And since you have different genes to work with, it's not just those genes, but it's all of the genes, and it's the rate that those specific strains are able to break things down. [00:21:28] You do get this added complexity when you're not using a standard commercial yeast. You just have this bigger variety of genes to choose from, and That's going to make the flavors more specific, and different. [00:21:44] It also introduces a certain, the disadvantage of using these is that, you know, they are gonna vary year to year, month to month. Uh, Potentially, and, and so you might get really, really amazing results one year and not the next year, and understanding why, why that might be is a whole exercise in and of itself, probably doable, but it's really exciting to think that these yeasts that are there naturally , they just have that genetic diversity and they want to live in these diverse communities, and so you are going to get that difference and terroir. [00:22:16] The other piece that was really exciting and was a different piece of work, but very similar groups and very similar, , samples, was looking at the microbiome, so the bacteria on the grapes. And we kind of found two things, and so there is some literature that shows if you look at a single farm, a single vineyard, and you look at different red varietals of grapes, you see actually a fairly similar microbiome signature on all of the different varietals. [00:22:46] Okay, but if we look at three distinct vineyards that are all within , one kilometer radius of one another. So they're very close. They have the same rock, to your point. They have the same weather. They have the same climate chaos happening, [00:23:01] but they're managed differently. We actually see very, very distinct signatures on all three that persists year after year. So we looked at two years, , this was again, Jay Martinek's work, , and we see that each one of those, even though it's the same varietal of grape, it is more similar to itself, year over year, than among the three farms. and and that's very interesting because what that suggests is Exactly what you're saying. [00:23:29] It's not the rock. It's not the climate that's driving the microbiome there. It's actually the practices of that vineyard that are changing that. And to me, that's so powerful, because what that means is that there's so much of that craft and art in the management of the vineyard that's then going to go and affect the terroir. , I know that's not the yeast answer, but that's the bacteria answer, and it's like, the power's in your hands. [00:23:54] Craig Macmillan: I'm on the Central Coast of California, and we've had some very hot vintages in this last , 2024 season. We had, and it was 2022 as well, we had these really hot stretches of over 100 Fahrenheit. Not very friendly to yeast in general. [00:24:09] Probably friendly to some, but not to others. And I had conversations with winemakers along the lines of like, could you even do a natural fermentation this year, a native fermentation? Are they there anymore? Or have they been selected against due to the heat? And I now have a total reset of the microbiome, the microflora in my world. this is the kind of thing that bioinformatics would be able to determine. [00:24:34] Aria Hahn: yeah, for sure. So we love that. We love when we get the baseline. We're like, show us your year that you were like, this is my typical year. This is my regular year. We'll live for that because as soon as you have the baseline, then we can go and answer those questions. So we can say, okay, great. We know what your baseline is when you typical year. [00:24:52] Now you have this heat wave that comes in. , Let's go and look. Let's go see who's survived. And I know I anthropomorphize all of these things a ton, but it really is, like, who's there, right? , is it the same bug, but very decreased? Are we getting different E strains coming in? are we seeing less overall diversity? [00:25:13] Do we see the same diversity, but Their population is a quarter of the size, and how does that affect the dynamics? Like, what do we see? And bioinformatics can absolutely absolutely answer these questions. And that can be really powerful. [00:25:26] Craig Macmillan: In my research I didn't pick up on this Can bioinformatics put a quantity on things? Can you quantify the relative size of these different populations? [00:25:34] Aria Hahn: We can, yes. So, you have to use some kind of special techniques. There's a couple of main ways we do them. One is called qPCR, so quantitative PCR. And so we literally take the DNA and we can count the copies of it in a very quantitative way. That's straightforward, pretty inexpensive. [00:25:52] Another way we can do it is a little bit more sophisticated, , but you don't have to know what you're looking for. So with quantitative PCR, we have to know, like, we want to go count saccharomyces cerevisiae. But if we don't know all of the microbes that are there, all of these that are there, then we can't go and target it with qPCR. So then what we have to do is use a spiken. the concept is pretty simple. You put a known quantity of a piece of DNA that we would not expect to appear in nature. And then when we sequence it, we know how many we got back. So if we know we put in a hundred copies of it and we get 200 copies back, now we have a pretty good idea of like, everything there was, sequenced twice or if we get 50 copies back, we're like, okay, well, however many we have, we're going to double that and we have a good idea and we do do this in like a little bit more sophisticated way where we put in like a whole bunch at different quantities so we can double check our math and make sure that it's all good. [00:26:49] But that's the concept is with a spike in so you can do it quantitatively. [00:26:53] Craig Macmillan: Talking about all the things that are out there, there's a lot of interest right now in bioprotectants for fermentation, where you introduce non fermentative yeast, and they kind of take up the ecological niche against foliage organisms, and then you can add a Cerevisiae strain to do that, to do your fermentation. [00:27:10] Would you be able to pick up those other genus, of yeast in a bioinformatic way and gives us a sense of what else is out there. [00:27:18] Aria Hahn: Yeah, for sure. So we sequence the whole community and then we kind of in a. Like a puzzle. I'm going to put together the individual genomes of everyone who's there. And so we can look at not just the targets, but the unknowns as well. And so often, especially in soils, what we get is sometimes up to 80 percent of the genomes that we're able to recover from that sample are totally novel. [00:27:43] So they're new to science. It's really exciting. and we hate it. We love it and we hate it. So, we love it because it's really fun. You, you discover these new species of bacteria, of yeast, or these new strains, and, and you get to name them. You don't have to name them after yourself anymore, you have to name them about the place that they're there. Which is a totally logical thing. But, would have been fun. , [00:28:06] So we get to name these things, it's really exciting. [00:28:09] But it also means it's so much work. Because now you have this genome that's so new. And so now you're trying to figure out. What are all the genes? Do we know the genes it has, but just not quite the way that they're arranged? Do we not know what many of these genes do? And if we don't know what these genes do, like what kind of uncertainty and questions does that bring up? And so it can be really exciting, that discovery phase, and also quite overwhelming, honestly. [00:28:36] Craig Macmillan: what other applications might there be for bioinformatics in wineries or in vineyards? [00:28:41] Aria Hahn: Yeah, that's fantastic. So definitely monitoring. You know, regenerative farming is a really big thing right now. how can we introduce additional species, cover crops, , you know, planting additional or different plants in between. Like, what can we do to really increase the soil health, sequester carbon, the biodiversity of the soil, of the land, and how does that affect it? So we can monitor all those things with environmental DNA or eDNA. [00:29:09] One thing that we've been thinking about a lot is this concept of smoke taint, which I think has kind of affected the whole west coast of North America. [00:29:18] Are there microbial treatments that can kind of mitigate smoke taint, , can we feed bacteria, the bacteria that we know [00:29:29] can kind of break down those volatile phenols that cause the smoke taint. Get them to kind of break that down first before we make the wine. Like we're kind of looking at applications like that. [00:29:40] Obviously those are, I would say further out in terms of technological development biodiversity, which we can absolutely go and do today. , but there's interest in that smoke taint. Application, and we're really interested in that. [00:29:52] Then there's also kind of everything in between. So can we the harvest? Can we increase the quality of the grape? Can we help with years that are dry? Can we help with years that are wet or cold or hot? as we, kind of committed to a certain number of effects of climate change, we have to start thinking creatively. [00:30:14] I was on this call with an unrelated company. They wanted to do similar things but in the mining space, in the reclamation space. And I don't know how it happened, but I was on this call with this man. It was his last day before it was dark where he was. He's in Quebec. He's three hours ahead. [00:30:29] , You know, it was winter. So it's very, the mood was very, like, dark and somber, and this was his final call of his final day of work. And he was so hopeful about microbes, and he spent his career working with them. And just before he signed off the call, he says, I hope microbes save us all. [00:30:50] And then he kills the call. And, and, for, the next few years, I titled every single talk I did, Microbes may save us all because I just, the weight of that conversation was so big and I know that's not what we're talking about here in terms of [00:31:08] smoke taint, but I do think, you know, to bring us full circle to this like omnipresent godlike presence of microbes that there's something to that idea in that I think that they have this potential to save us from ourselves. If we can learn more, [00:31:25] Craig Macmillan: I think what we're talking about is bioremediation and the potential there. And bioremediation would work by identifying an organism that's going to play a certain role and then actually introducing it into the environment. For instance, like introducing it to wine that may have smoke taint, for instance. [00:31:40] Aria Hahn: , so there's a three main approaches to that. [00:31:42] So the first is exactly what we're talking about. You introduce a micro that we know and you, and you put it in there. The main challenge of that is this, this word we call engraftment. We actually steal that word from organ transplants. So, when you put in a new heart, not that I know anything about heart transplants, but when you put in a new heart, you have to engraft it. [00:32:01] And so people need to be on immunosuppressants, is my understanding, to make that heart transplant like stick in their body, have their body accept it. Kind of the same challenge when you introduce a microbe into an open, wild environment where you need that new species to engraft in that community. If you can't do that, you just have to keep adding it. [00:32:21] You have to keep adding it, keep adding it, it's time consuming, it's expensive, all of these things. So engraffing is still a challenge in that field. But that is one way. [00:32:29] The second way is to bioengineer. And so the concept here is that you take species or strains that are naturally occurring, so they do well in that environment, and you change something in their genetics and then reintroduce that. It does get around the concept of, [00:32:50] of engraftment in theory. The major issue with it is, there's not a lot of people or companies that feel ready, I think, to take a biologically engineered synthetic genome and introduce it into the environment en masse. We just don't understand the risks of it, or, or not, we don't know, but I think that's the point, is that we don't know, and so people are a little bit like, Maybe we're not quite there yet. [00:33:19] And then the third way is to say, I'm going to look at who's already there. And I'm going to understand what they like to eat and what their competitors like to eat and I'm going to try to starve their competitors [00:33:31] and really feed the ones who have the capacity to degrade those volatile phenols. I'm going to like try to get their population to do super well and thrive. and and try to kind of starve out and make the populations that can't do the job that I want lesser and less prevalent in the community. [00:33:51] And that approach I think is kind of one of my favorites where we understand and then we put some selective pressures. So this could be adding more nitrogen, adding different carbon sources. [00:34:01] It could be watering less to create a more aerobic environment. It could be you know, kind of drowning them to create an anaerobic environment. It's kind of those bigger controls that we have working with the microbes that are already there. [00:34:17] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, in the same way that we're not afraid to play with plant communities in agricultural systems, with cover cropping or intercropping or anything like that, same kind of idea, where maybe I plant something that I think will out compete a weed. [00:34:28] Same kind of idea. And we're pretty comfortable with that. [00:34:32] And also things will have a way of finding their stasis, finding their, their It's just getting it kind of pushed in the right direction. I think that he's super, super cool. [00:34:44] A lot of interest and work in the soil microbiome in terms of soil health. We mentioned regenerative agriculture. I have put my toe in that, in, in my professional world extremely difficult, extremely confusing, lots of holes you know, and, and trying to find markers or metrics has been. challenging for instance, I was trying to figure out how healthy some soils were. It, healthy in quotes, and I wanted to do analysis of respiration. And this very good soil ecologist said, well, that tells you how many folks are in the room, but it doesn't tell you what they're doing or who they are. [00:35:21] And I was like, that's a really good Point I could have a lot of respiration from organisms. I don't want and I wouldn't know what was who and who was what? What world can bioinformatics play in that [00:35:33] Aria Hahn: , that's a great question. So I would say it's the opposite in general, without the spike ins and kind of specific things, what? we can tell pretty inexpensively, 50 to 100 a sample, is basically who's in the room and in what relative abundance. So it is come down a lot in price. It doesn't tell us a lot about their genetic capability. [00:35:55] So if we know them because they've been previously studied, then we can say like, oh, yeah, these guys are known to do X, Y, and Z. [00:36:02] If we don't know them, for that kind of price point in those methods, we're kind of just like, yeah, we know their names. But that's it. [00:36:08] Then we can do kind of a deeper dive, , to a different type of sequencing called whole genome sequencing. And you get the whole genome. And so there we can actually say not only who they are, but what they're doing. Or what they have the ability to do. And so that's where the limit of DNA is, is that it can tell us the potential. They can potentially do this, but it doesn't actually tell us if they're choosing to do that, so to speak. [00:36:33] There are other techniques that are very related. Metatranscriptomics, it's looking at the RNA, and you could do metabolomics. So you can actually look at the metabolites that they're producing, and then it tells you what they actually did. But we often can start at that base layer of DNA. and build up. So those questions we can answer. [00:36:51] And I think you're right about there are a lot of holes and it's confusing and it's complex. And we say this to clients all the time, like, if you know way to solve a problem, do that. Biology is messy. [00:37:03] But if you don't, like let's look at biology and let's enjoy the mess , there's a lot of beauty in that mess. And that's one of the things we've actually loved about interacting with wineries they are incredibly scientifically minded folks. They're data driven, the amount of innovation and technology they're using. never fails to impress, but you also get that love of the art and the craft from them. We love that. We see art and science as like in a circular spectrum. And so we love when, our clients in the, in the wine start talking to us about kind of their secret sauce and the things that they've tried and how, and they always get a little bit nervous. [00:37:49] And they would, if they always kind of start, they were like, you know what else I do? And we're like, tell us. And then they tell us something and they're like, we just know from experience. Experience that this works that this changes the ferment, but we don't have any evidence for that And and I think they're worried we're gonna judge them but we're like no that is like their science is all way of knowing but [00:38:09] my friend says art is science and love and and I love that idea that is something that's been really really fun about working with wineries and vineyards is they kind of get that they're like, yeah, this is the love piece here [00:38:22] Craig Macmillan: That's cool I think there's beauty in the mess. I might adopt that if you don't mind I mean, I may use that for some of my own stuff. I think that's great What is one thing you would tell growers or wineries, , [00:38:35] Aria Hahn: their choices are directly impacting the microbiome, so that's the bacteria and the yeast And that that is going to affect the terroir, the complexity, the quality of the wine, and it is knowable. [00:38:50] Craig Macmillan: there we go. And we also know that some of the things that we do may affect that and that is part of what makes us special. Where can people find out more about you? [00:38:58] Aria Hahn: We have a website, it is koonke. com, K O O N K I E dot com. can also look me up, Aria Hahn, , and on Google Scholar, the internet, I feel like I'm very findable. [00:39:10] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, you are very findable and we will have a lot of links and other things on the show page. So please check that out. Really fascinating stuff going even beyond this. I want to thank you for being on the podcast. [00:39:21] This has been a great conversation. [00:39:22] Aria Hahn: Yeah, thanks for having me. Super fun. [00:39:25] Craig Macmillan: So our guest today was Aria Hahn. She is CEO and co founder of Koonkie, a bioinformatics company, and is doing some really fascinating stuff, not only around yeast, but lots of other topics. [00:39:35] And I just got lost down the rabbit hole when I took a look at that website, all the different things you folks have been involved in, and it was really fun. [00:39:48] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. [00:39:49] Today's podcast was brought to you by Sunridge. For over 45 years, Sunridge nurseries has supplied premium quality grapevines. to grape growers worldwide. A pioneer in the industry with a focus on clean quality vines and personalized dedication to their partnered growers has led them to be the largest, most well respected grapevine nursery in the United States. Sunridge Nurseries continues to lead the industry having undergone several expansions to their modern state of the art facilities and is the first and only grapevine nursery to have implemented the most advanced greenhouse Horticulture water treatment technology in North America. [00:40:26] Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Aria, an article titled, make better wines with bioinformatics plus sustainable wine growing podcast episodes, 201 balance hot climate, high sugar wine with green grape juice, 243 microbial communities in the grapevine. And 251 vine sap analysis to optimize nutrition. [00:40:50] If you liked the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts at vineyardteam.org/podcast, and you can reach us at podcast at vineyardteam. org until next time, this is sustainable wine growing with the vineyard team.   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

Winegrowing regions in Washington State have many unique challenges from salty soils, to low organic matter, to nematodes. Devin Rippner, Research Viticulture Soil Scientist with USDA-ARS and his colleagues at Washington State University are developing a research vineyard to study soil health building practices. They are testing a variety of management strategies including adjusting irrigation volume to correct for salt build-up, mowing for weed management, compost applications and synthetic fertilizers, and different cover crops. The team is tracking the cost of each practice and will ultimately evaluate wine quality in the coming years. Taking a deeper dive into the future of soil sampling, Devin explains X-ray CT imagery. He has used this technology to evaluate the structure and organic matter from soil columns and aggregates. X-ray CT imagery has also been used to evaluate the impact grape seeds have on tannin flavor profiles. Resources:         80: (Rebroadcast) The Goldilocks Principle & Powdery Mildew Management 90: Nematode Management for Washington Grapes A workflow for segmenting soil and plant X-ray CT images with deep learning in Google's Colaboratory Devin Rippner, USDA ARS Functional Soil Health Healthy Soils Playlist Red Wine Fermentation Alters Grape Seed Morphology and Internal Porosity Soil Health in Washington Vineyards Vineyard soil texture and pH effects on Meloidogyne hapla and Mesocriconema xenoplax Washington Soil Health Initiative Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Wine growing regions in Washington State have many unique challenges from salty soils to low organic matter to nematodes. [00:00:13] Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, Executive Director. [00:00:23] In today's podcast, Craig McMillan, Critical Resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates, with longtime SIP certified vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery, speaks with Devin Rippner, Research Viticulture Soil Scientist with USDA ARS. [00:00:41] Devin and his colleagues at Washington State University are developing a research vineyard to study soil health building practices. [00:00:49] They are testing a variety of management strategies, including adjusting irrigation volume to correct for salt buildup, mowing for weed management, Compost applications and synthetic fertilizers and different cover crops. The team is tracking the cost of each practice and will ultimately evaluate wine quality in the coming years. [00:01:08] Taking a deeper dive into the future of soil sampling. Devin explains X ray CT imagery. He has used this technology to evaluate the structure in organic matter from soil columns and soil aggregates. X ray CT imagery has also been used to evaluate the impact that grape seeds have on tannin flavor profiles. [00:01:28] Now let's listen in. [00:01:29] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Devin Rippner. He is a research soil scientist with the USDA agricultural research service. He's based out of Prosser, Washington, and he's also an adjunct in the department of crop and soil sciences with Washington state university. [00:01:46] Devin, thanks for being here. [00:01:48] Devin Rippner: Absolutely. Pleasure to be here, Craig. [00:01:50] Craig Macmillan: You are on the leadership team of the Washington State Soil Health Initiative. I think it's a pretty cool little program. Tell us what it is and what it's all about. [00:01:59] Devin Rippner: Yeah, absolutely. So the Washington State Legislature allocated funding to study soil health and soil health building practices in a variety of agricultural systems and so to access that money a number of groups put in competitive proposals at the Prosser Irrigated Agriculture Research and Extension Center, we put in a proposal to study soil health in wine grape systems. [00:02:24] Originally, we actually had it in juice grapes as well, but we were not able to get enough funding for both. Juice grapes are actually a big product out of Washington. [00:02:32] Craig Macmillan: I did not know that. That's interesting. What varieties? [00:02:34] Devin Rippner: Mostly Concord? [00:02:36] I'm less familiar with it. It's something I would, I would like to work in cause they have different constraints than wine grapes. [00:02:41] Ours is focused on wine grapes, but there are systems looking at tree fruit, at potatoes, at small crane cropping systems. There are a variety of systems that are being evaluated. [00:02:54] Craig Macmillan: I looked at a flyer that kind of outlined some of the ideas and issues around , the Wine Grape part. Can you tell us a little bit about that? [00:03:01] Devin Rippner: we have fairly unique soils. We have pretty alkaline soils here in Washington. We're on the arid side of the Cascades. So think Reno rather than like Seattle. we tend to accumulate salts. We also have very coarse textured soils. So a lot of sands to sandy loams or loamy sands. Very little clay. [00:03:23] We have typically under 10 percent clay in a lot of the grape growing regions of washington. we also have low organic matter, because it doesn't rain much here. There has never been a chance for a lot of plants to grow. And so we just have never really built up organic matter. So we typically have about, let's say, maybe 1 percent to 2 percent organic matter in our soils. [00:03:44] That's about half a percent carbon to 1 percent carbon, which is typically it's pretty low for a lot of soils. [00:03:50] Craig Macmillan: It is. [00:03:51] Devin Rippner: those are some of, some of the like unique challenges around soil health. There's also problems with pests. Haven't had too much of an issue with Phylloxera. That's changing. [00:04:01] There are a variety of nematode pests that cause problems in grapes here. When you plant a vineyard into an old vineyard, you're basically putting baby vines into a place that might have a bunch of pests that aren't a big deal for really mature vines. [00:04:14] But as soon as you put a baby in that environment, it does not thrive. [00:04:18] Finding ways to deal with nematode pests, things like that over time , is really important. So those are kind of the things that we are, we are looking at, at our site. [00:04:27] Craig Macmillan: What kind of practices are you investigating to address these things? I hadn't really thought of that about it till now, but nematode is a good one. that's a tough pest. [00:04:37] Devin Rippner: funny thing is this is a long term site, right? So, so our practices for those will really come later. I had a nematologist that worked for me. And she evaluated our soils for for the pathogenic nematodes for wine grapes, and we don't really have them but the thing is they build over time, right? [00:04:52] Just because there might be a few in that soil But when they start colonizing the grape roots over time, they can become problematic We functionally have a rootstock trial at the end of all of our experimental rows and, and rootstocks have been found to be very effective at preventing nematode problems or decreasing the severity of nematode problems. [00:05:13] We will be able to kind of look at that with our rootstock trial. [00:05:17] Craig Macmillan: Do you have any of the GRN stocks in that? [00:05:19] Devin Rippner: We don't, so we have own rooted vines and then we have Telekey 5c 1103p 110r. Let's see then I think St. George [00:05:30] I'm trying to remember what, what the last one is. It's escaping me right now. I apologize. [00:05:34] Craig Macmillan: Well, no, it's all right. Some of the more common root stocks, basically the ones that are very popular. [00:05:39] Devin Rippner: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [00:05:41] The reality is that a lot of the like vitis rupestris, vitis riparia, , they are less prone to nematode parasitism. Than Vinifera. , that's the reality of it. [00:05:50] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. Less susceptible. I think it's probably the best way to put it. Nothing's bulletproof when it comes to this, this problem. [00:05:57] Devin Rippner: And Michelle Moyer in Washington has been doing a lot of work with this, with Inga Zasada, who's a USDA scientist. And their, their results are really cool. They're finding that when you try to fumigate, it helps for a little while, but the rebound is bad, and it's just easier to just use rootstocks. [00:06:15] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. Talk to me a little bit more about, you said salinity can be an issue [00:06:19] Devin Rippner: Yeah, [00:06:20] Craig Macmillan: So here's the, the back and forth on that. You would think that a, a coser, your textured soil salinity would be less of an issue, but you don't get the rain to take advantage of that. Is that , the issue here? [00:06:30] Devin Rippner: 100%. That's exactly it. We build up layers called caliche layers, which are evidence of a lack of water moving downward. [00:06:38] So it's, it's really evidence of water moving down and then back up due to evaporation. We get big buildups of carbonates in our soils and carbonates are a type of salt. [00:06:48] So as you apply other chemicals, Salts, a salty irrigation water , we tend to build up salts in our soils. A lot of our irrigation water comes from the Yakima River or other rivers in the area, columbia River. But there are places where people are on deeper wells and they are seeing salt accumulation in their vineyards. [00:07:06] And it's, it's really challenging to deal with. [00:07:09] Craig Macmillan: Do you have any strategies that you're looking at? Anything you're trying out? [00:07:13] Devin Rippner: at our site over time, we're going to look at higher irrigation volumes versus lower irrigation volumes and seeing if that will change the accumulation of salt at our site. , that's kind of the main experiment around that with our soil health vineyard. [00:07:27] Craig Macmillan: Obviously you're doing this with some pretty salty irrigation water and you're comparing that to less salty water. At one site, you're only gonna have one type of water, right? [00:07:36] Devin Rippner: Right. That's not something that we'll be able to do, but one of the interesting things is we are applying compost and. Our compost can be pretty salty. [00:07:45] So we'll, we'll be getting compost. That'll be kind of four decisiemen per meter. I I'm sorry to use those units and so that, so that is salty. [00:07:54] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, it's salty. [00:07:55] Devin Rippner: Young grapevines, if they grew only in that, they would really struggle. It's over the, the two deciSiemen per meter kind of threshold for grapevines. That's something where we're, you know, we are using clean irrigation water, but some of our amendments coming in can be saltier. [00:08:10] When we have kind of a, a low and high irrigation treatment, we can evaluate the salt accumulation in the root zone. From that particular amendment, right? [00:08:19] Craig Macmillan: What about other types of fertilizer? Are there organic fertilizers or something like that that might be less of a salt contributor than let's say a traditional nitrate based fertilizer? [00:08:28] Devin Rippner: As it turns out, at least for us, we don't apply. a massive amount of nitrogen to our grapevines, so we're often applying between 20 and say 60 pounds of N per year which is not a lot compared to say corn or, tree fruit or, or hops or things like that. [00:08:45] And so we, we don't, Exactly. Expect to see a buildup of, of those salts over time. Honestly, some of the organic amendments end up being saltier than our fertilizer. [00:08:55] That's something when we do a high and low for irrigation, we will be able to look at the accumulation of, of nitrates and things like that. [00:09:02] Cause in our arid environment, you do get accumulations of nitrate, which is kind of funny. [00:09:06] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, that's interesting. You also mentioned the soil pH, alkalinity. What, what's going on there? How bad is it in different spots? What can you do about it? I, I'm fascinated by this because like when you look at viticulture, you have like a lot of knobs on the mixing board, right? You got a lot of sliders and, Soil , you can't slide it very well. It's like very hard to make changes to soil over time. [00:09:33] Devin Rippner: it is. [00:09:33] Craig Macmillan: very slow and very difficult. So I'm very interested in , this issue here. [00:09:39] Devin Rippner: It's funny at our site, the soil pH isn't too bad. It's about 8. Across the board, from the, from the top that so, so we've been measuring from the top of the soil down to about 90 centimeters. About three feet. We do see a pH tick up in our sub soil, but still it's, it's around the eights. [00:09:56] We actually have a lot of carbonates in our soil. There's only more organic carbon in the top six inches of our soil. And from that point on, most of our carbon is in the form of carbonates. [00:10:06] Which is kind of unique. And so once you get down to like 60 to 90 centimeters, so two to three feet in the soil, functionally, 90 percent of the soil carbon is carbon from carbonate. [00:10:16] So dealing with that in the region there's wide variation, so people that are planting into old wheat ground where they've used a lot of ammonium based fertilizers or urea, the pH can be in the fives. And then I, I mean, I've measured soil pH is up to about 9. 8 around here. So, so quite high. [00:10:35] Those soils are hard to deal with. So these are carbonate buffered systems. So to try to lower the pH, you basically have to get rid of all the carbonates. And that is not really feasible. We do see in some of the vineyards that we work in. And again, a lot of this data is preliminary. [00:10:51] I'm trying to get stuff out right now. Getting the vineyard set up has been a massive undertaking. And I've been lucky to work with a great team to, to get it done, but it has taken a lot of my time. [00:11:01] Um, but we, we do see seasonal fluctuations with irrigation. So soils might start off with a pH around eight drop over the course of the growing season into the sixes and then as they dry down for winter time. So we cut irrigation. The pH will start to rise back up as the carbonates move from the subsoil to the surface. [00:11:21] Craig Macmillan: Interesting. Interesting. Let's talk about your vineyard. If I understand correctly, you have a research vineyard there in Prosser that you are building from scratch or have built from scratch. Is that true? [00:11:30] Devin Rippner: Yes. . It is a new vineyard to study soil health building practices. We just finished our second season. And we were very lucky. Vina Matos which is a company out of Portugal. They mechanically planted it for us. [00:11:45] Scientist, so it's, it was, yeah, it was a bit of an undertaking. Even now I've gotten a lot better on a tractor than I was. And, you know, I like to run, like, I'd like to do x ray stuff. And then I'm out there on a tractor, like, yeah, doing stuff. It's a unique challenge. [00:11:59] So we do have a vineyard manager Dr. Liz Gillespie is the vineyard manager. , she honestly does most of the tracker work. I only sub in when she's down with an illness or something like that. [00:12:09] It's been a team effort for the last couple of years. [00:12:12] Craig Macmillan: What are you doing in there? You've talked about a couple of topics, but, and how big is this, this vineyard? [00:12:17] Devin Rippner: It's not that big. It's about 4. 1 acres. , [00:12:20] Craig Macmillan: that's, you know, for research, that's good. [00:12:22] Devin Rippner: yeah, yeah, it is good. We functionally have a business as usual. So we call it our Washington 2021 standard. So it's kind of what growers just do. So that's spraying undervined for weed control and then just let resident vegetation pop up where it may and mow it down. [00:12:39] Most people don't spray or till , their tractor rows. They just. Kind of let it go. We don't get that much rain. You end up selecting for annual grasses it's actually a pretty good weed composition for a tractor row. So then we start building from there. [00:12:52] One of our treatments is what if you just mowed everywhere, right? The goal is to select for annual grasses everywhere over time. [00:12:59] And then we have another treatment where we're mowing everywhere. But we're applying compost for fertilization. Our other treatments get synthetic fertilizers for fertilization, and then we have our compost treatment where we're mowing. [00:13:12] Then we have an undervined cover crop, so that's like our cover crop treatment. [00:13:16] We're curious about undervine legume cover crops. So we have a short subterranean clover that , we've seated in to hopefully eventually start adding nitrogen to the system and, and hopefully we'll be able to back off on more of the synthetic fertilizers over time in that system, but we'll let the vines guide us, right? [00:13:35] Craig Macmillan: What species of clover is that? [00:13:37] Devin Rippner: I'm not sure the exact, so it would be like Dalkey. [00:13:39] it's a clover that basically has low flowers and shoots seed downward. And so , that allows it to replant itself really effectively. [00:13:47] The flowers tend to be below the foliage. So we won't have to worry about mowing them down too badly. , they stay low. And so that's why we selected that. just to try to keep the flowers low and keep foliage away from our vines. [00:14:01] Craig Macmillan: Anything else? [00:14:03] Devin Rippner: Yeah, so then we have our aspirational treatment, which is kind of a mix of the subterranean clover cover crop. And then we have compost fertilization and then kind of breaking the full factorial. We're actually changing what's in , , the tractor row. We're planting an intermediate wheatgrass. [00:14:20] We started with crusted wheatgrass. It's so funny with these experiments. , we seeded in crusted wheatgrass a couple of times and just did not take it's not very effective for competing against other weeds, and it's not very good with traffic. And so now , we're seeding in intermediate wheatgrass. [00:14:35] , it is more traffic tolerant and is more weed tolerant. So we're hoping that we'll be able to outcompete all the other annual grasses and just have kind of a perennial grass cover crop. [00:14:46] Craig Macmillan: Is it on these courses? So is this camp is compaction less of a problem? I would think. [00:14:53] Devin Rippner: We do have some compaction. That we've seen out there. Certainly mechanical planting can cause some extra compaction. It, it takes a lot of force to, you know, rip a giant hole in the ground to drop the vines into. And so we do see some compaction from that. [00:15:06] We have taken bulk density cores from all over the vineyard. And we're hoping to see changes over time in that compaction. So we've done bulk density course from under vine and then in the tractor row. And so we're hoping that over time, these various practices will alter the bulk density, hopefully lower the bulk density in the tractor row. [00:15:27] Craig Macmillan: And then I'm assuming that you're also keeping track of costs for these things. [00:15:32] Devin Rippner: yes, we have been keeping track of costs. We are keeping track of the hourly labor , for mowing. Honestly, we've, we've purchased some undervine mowers and , we have really struggled to find a good solution for our young vines. [00:15:45] We're going to, Purchase another one soon. The biggest thing is that if you have a swing arm on it, it's got to be gentle enough that it, it'll push out of the way , with a bamboo stake in the ground. [00:15:55] And a lot of the existing swing arm mowers for orchards and vineyards it takes a lot of force to move that swing arm. [00:16:03] It's been a real challenge for us. So, so we ended up having people go out with weed eaters, which is super expensive and is actually something that some vineyards do either biodynamic vineyards in the area that they'll send people out with weed eaters to go control the weeds under vine. [00:16:17] I don't want this to be just like a hyper specialized science experiment. If we're sending people out with weed eaters, it sounds a little bit ridiculous, but there are folks in the industry that do it. So it's not. It's not that ridiculous. [00:16:28] Craig Macmillan: It's not that ridiculous. It's legitimate. [00:16:31] Whatever tool that you can make work, depending on the size of your vineyard and depending on what your conditions are. But yeah, you're in row mode. That's going to be an issue until these vines are mature to no doubt about that. I hope you still have a vineyard after knocking down these bamboo stakes. [00:16:44] You don't have like real results yet. You've only just gotten started. [00:16:47] Devin Rippner: We've only just gotten started you know, some of the results that we got were prior to our planting, there were no differences among our treatment blocks for our treatments across the site. So that's nice kind of starting at a, a pretty even baseline. [00:17:03] We're going to track the changes over time. Honestly. I hate to speculate, we don't have the data for it yet, but we've been applying, our synthetic fertilizers based on our like compost mineralization rate. And one of the things that's pretty obvious when you walk out there is that weed competition is brutal for young vines. [00:17:23] So where we're spraying with herbicide under the vines, there's less weed competition. Those vines are just bigger., [00:17:28] we're going to up the amount of fertilizer that we apply next year to try to, like, get around that. And it's one of the challenges at our site is that for long term research, we have to manage our vineyard in a way that kind of limits how many comparisons that we can make. Functionally, two out of our three rows are buffers. It just eats up an enormous amount of space and I'm, I'm hesitant to start putting other treatments into those areas. Like, oh, what if we vary the fertilizer rate to see what the effect is with relation to mowing, right? [00:18:01] So can we get over the weed pressure by, Applying more fertilizer. One of my main takeaways is that a lot of the recommendations that you might get for like, for conventional management won't necessarily work if you're trying to change your system [00:18:16] That's where, you know, growers are going to have to play around and understand that if they're mowing under vine, there is going to be more weed pressure and those weeds take up nitrogen. [00:18:27] You may have to fertilize more. I mean, that, that's just a consequence of, of weed competition. [00:18:32] Craig Macmillan: yeah, yeah, yeah. That's interesting. And in irrigation water too, [00:18:37] Devin Rippner: Oh yeah. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. They use a lot of water. There's no doubt about it. [00:18:42] Craig Macmillan: Which actually brings me back to the clover. I planted crimson clover in my yard once and I irrigated it and it was really pretty and I actually put two and a half foot, three foot high risers off of my lawn sprinklers to get a sprinkler high enough that I could keep growing it. And I was able to grow it up to about three feet tall and it was gorgeous. It was absolutely amazing. But it does make me wonder if, what's a subterranean clover? It's a low growing clover, but how much effect does irrigation have on it in terms of making it taller or taller? [00:19:13] Devin Rippner: That's a good question. I haven't looked into it that much. I consulted with some colleagues here. Who've done work with a variety of cover crops, and they were the ones that recommended the subterranean clover. It has a short stature and part of it is because of how it flowers and seeds, it can't get that tall because it's, it pushes its seeds into the ground. [00:19:32] And so there's no real benefit for it getting taller because then it will be farther away from where it needs to put its seeds. [00:19:39] That's a real concern. I mean, I've learned so much by , having a vineyard gophers, voles, rats, mice, they can be problematic. Right. And if you have a tall cover crop, that's getting into your vines, like that's an easy pathway up. [00:19:52] Keeping the, those undervine weeds and cover crops short is really important. [00:19:58] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. It's also really important for the success of your predators. [00:20:01] Your barn nows and whatnot. They can't really do much when things are tall. So keep going, keep good luck. You're in it. You're in it now, Devon, [00:20:09] Devin Rippner: Oh, yeah. No, that's what it feels like. I feel like I jumped into the deep end of a pool, but didn't realize it was so deep. And so, yeah, I'm learning. [00:20:17] Craig Macmillan: Because prior to a few years back, cause you were, you were at Davis and you were at the Oakville station. Is that right? For a little while. [00:20:24] Devin Rippner: I pulled some samples from Oakville, but no, I was mostly on main campus. I'm a soil chemist by training. Grapevines are relatively new for me. I worked for Andrew McElrone, who , does some great work a lot of my previous work did not involve grapes, and it was mainly, like, tomatoes or other annual crops, and often, like, pretty lab based stuff. [00:20:47] And so this has been a real deep dive for me to do something different. [00:20:53] Craig Macmillan: which is an excellent transition to some of your work which you did at other crops, but you also did some other interesting things related to vines and to soil. And that is x ray CT imagery. You were the first person to introduce me to this concept. I I had no idea I guess I should say X ray micro CT imagery. What, what are the exact terminology? What is it? What can it do? What can we learn? [00:21:20] Devin Rippner: Thanks for bringing this up. Let me just try to keep it simple and I'll build out from there. Just like a doctor's office where you can get an X ray you can actually X ray soils. And plants and look inside of them. X ray computed tomography is where instead of just taking one x ray, maybe you take 1000 x rays as the sample is slowly moving. And what you end up with is the ability to make a three D reconstruction of that sample. Where you're able to look inside of it. [00:21:50] Materials that absorb x rays look different than materials that don't absorb x rays. And so you're able to start Teasing apart structures that are inside of plants and soils [00:22:01] There's different levels to that. Humans have X ray computed tomography done on them, right? You can go in and have that procedure done to look inside of you. It's very much like an MRI there are some tools that it. look at very big volumes. And then there are some tools that look at very small volumes. [00:22:19] That's where there's the x ray microcomputed tomography is looking at very small volumes. And a lot of times those instruments they're low often located. With synchrotrons. So a synchrotron is a particle accelerator that moves electrons at about the speed of light. And then as they're going at the speed of light, , it bends them, it shifts the path of the electrons. [00:22:43] And in doing so , Theory of relativity says that when you have a big shift , in the direction of these electrons they must lose energy. And so they lose energy as the brightest light that we know of in the known universe. And so some of that light are x rays and those x rays are very tunable, and there's a lot of them. [00:23:03] And so we can basically focus on a really tiny area. And still have a lot of x rays. That lets us look at really small things and still have like good contrast and be able to image them relatively quickly. This field is advancing quickly. I know it sounds pretty crazy to talk about x raying soils and plants and things like that. [00:23:23] But the reality is these x rays can also be used to identify elements. And so you can do elemental speciation. So you can be like, Oh, all of the phosphorus there is as phosphate rather than some other form or it's calcium phosphate, not magnesium phosphate. That's called x ray adsorption, near edge structures. [00:23:42] That's how people do that. A long time ago, these instruments used to be unique. You do like a tomography and then you do like these Zains do elemental information, but those things are converging. Now it's possible to do like x ray CT and also do elemental analysis and speciation on the same sample. [00:24:01] in 100 years, that may be how we do our soil testing is you literally have one of these instruments on the back of a tractor. You pull a soil core. You do a quick scan and you say, here's our structure. We can also see the organic matter inside of the soil column. And then by inference from the outer edge of the soil column, we can get What elements are there and what form they're in and then make predictions on their availability. [00:24:27] Were very far from that, but that's like the vision that I have in my head is that at some point, , these will be sensors that people can just use in the field. Will they use an enormous amount of energy? Absolutely. Technology has, shifted in my lifetime and a lot of things that have seemed absurd in the past are now commonplace. [00:24:47] Craig Macmillan: What kinds of things, and it can be other crops as well, but in particular, there was one you did with, I think, grape seeds. Those are the things that can do what, what have you actually. Zapped [00:24:59] Devin Rippner: Yeah. [00:24:59] Craig Macmillan: a better word. [00:25:01] Devin Rippner: You know. [00:25:01] Craig Macmillan: mind here. Okay. So [00:25:03] Devin Rippner: Yeah. So I work with a lot of folks at different national labs. So the Pacific Northwest National Lab is a lab I work at a lot. And we've done a lot of imaging of soil cores and they're big soil cores. So three inches by 12 inch soil cores and to look at soil structure and we're working on segmenting out organic matter from them. [00:25:22] That's something that was not previously possible, but with modern neural networks and deep learning, we can actually train. Neural networks to identify specific compounds in the soil and identify them. We've done it with soil columns. I've done some work with soil aggregates. [00:25:38] So we can look at very small things as well. I've looked at grape seeds, so we had a little study where working with some folks at Davis they pulled out grape seeds, before, during and after fermentation, functionally, and we looked at how the structures of the seeds were changing. [00:25:58] The idea here is that grapeseeds provide a lot of tannins and they're not necessarily like the best tannins for wine, but they do provide a lot of tannins. [00:26:07] People have always wondered like, why do grapeseeds kind of supply a constant amount of tannins during the fermentation process? And as it turns out, it's because the structure of the seeds is changing during fermentation, [00:26:18] They start cracking. And so the internal structures become more accessible during fermentation. [00:26:23] And so that's what we were seeing using x ray tomography is these internal changes that were happening inside of the grape seeds that could potentially promote tannin extraction. [00:26:32] Craig Macmillan: That is fascinating. That explains a lot. I'm just thinking through, Tannin management. The date currently is in the beginning of November 2024. So we're just wrapping up a harvest here in the Paso Robles, central coast area. And so I've been thinking a lot about tannin management last couple of months on behalf of my friends who make wine, not myself. That's not entirely true. Is there a practical application to that in terms of like timing or conditions or things that would contribute to the, the cracking breakdown of these seeds that you identified? [00:27:05] Devin Rippner: We weren't able to go like that in depth and it's some, it's an area that I would like to build on. But the idea is that. The fermentation is a pretty harsh environment. You have a massive change in pH. Microbes are working hard. You have the production of ethanol, which allows the extraction of different compounds. [00:27:24] The seeds are seemingly being modified during fermentation. There needs to be more work done in this area in terms of seed tanning management. We now have kind of a, the more physical. Explanation for why those cannons are coming out of the seeds. [00:27:39] If you are able to pull your seeds earlier from fermentation, I mean, that's like a ridiculous thing to say, but you know, [00:27:45] Craig Macmillan: no, I mean, winemakers are very clever there's a lot of techniques that have become more prominent, I think, in the last 10, 15 years in terms of things like pressing off early, so getting your extraction fast and then finishing out the fermentation off of skins, off of seeds, you know, that's one way that you can do it really using seed maturity as a major variable in your pick decision is another one that I've seen people really draw to. [00:28:09] I remember people crunching on seeds and going, yeah, that's mature. Now I'm seeing people reject a pick date based on that. [00:28:17] Like we were going to wait for these seeds to mature fully before we pull because of, because of these issues with a seed tannin. So just knowing that I think is fascinating. [00:28:28] And if we can put some time and pH things on that, that would be really cool. Are you going to be using this technology with the with the research plot for anything? [00:28:36] Devin Rippner: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we [00:28:39] already have started that. We've already started down that route. Shortly after planting we collected soil cores from, , the vine row. And then from where the, the planter tires were functionally running just to look at changes in bulk density. So like kind of how compressed the soil is and then trying to get at changes in porosity. [00:28:58] We looked at these cores relative to , a field next door. That has had very relatively little disturbance in the past, like 4 to 10 years. It's kind of variable but has had less disturbance than say, like, right after planting a vineyard mechanically. Some of the things we see are you know, when you mechanically plant a vineyard, the bulk density , in the vine row is much lower than where the tractor tires are running that intrinsically makes sense. [00:29:26] And they're kind of both different than a place that's been no till or low disturbance for four to 10 years. Some of the things that are most interesting, and, and again, this is preliminary, it's got to go through peer review. . But when we look at the CT scans, you can actually see where worms have been moving, [00:29:45] In these, like, low till and no till plots or this field that has just not really been disturbed. [00:29:51] , so worms are actually making sizable holes in the ground, and those holes contribute to the porosity in these, like, low disturbance soils compared to these very disturbed soils. And that was a really interesting thing to visually see. You can see the worm castings in the scan. [00:30:10] I don't know if you've ever seen worm castings before, but they kind of, they're these little, like, kind of football shaped Things that are all clumped together our soils don't really aggregate. [00:30:20] We don't have enough organic matter and we don't have enough clay. And so that's like driving force behind aggregation in our soil seemingly is worm castings. For me, that was just mind blowing. [00:30:31] I was not expecting to see that. I think I was expecting to see a lot of roots or like root channels and they're there, but the worms are like following these roots and root channels around. [00:30:41] I'm a very visual person. And so when I do CT stuff, it's like, Oh, wow. Like I can see it with my eyes. If I can't see it with my eyes, it's hard for me to believe. But when I see it with my eyes, , it's believable. [00:30:52] Craig Macmillan: We've done a number of interviews recently around so the microbiome and just soil biology kind of in general, , is that gonna be part of your analysis as some of these projects go forward? [00:31:03] Devin Rippner: Yeah, absolutely. So we've done something called phospholipid fatty acid analysis. [00:31:09] So that gives us an idea of kind of, The microbial consortium that's there right when we sample phospholipids don't really stick around in soils. They're quickly degraded. We would like to do some sequencing challenges. We don't have a microbiologist on the team. And, and so we would, we would have to pay for the sequencing. [00:31:28] And even then sequencing is really interesting because, you could be like, oh, we did say 16 S-R-R-N-A sequencing. And that's like, that's a particular like region or a particular type of sequencing that is, that only picks up on say bacteria. [00:31:47] Whereas if you want to see fungi, maybe you need to do something called ITS sequencing. And so unless you do like all of the sequencing, you can get an idea of what's happening to the bacterial communities or the fungal communities. But unless you do all of them, it's really hard to get a more holistic picture. [00:32:05] And then, a lot of the sequencing that we do or is done we're missing things. If the regions analyzed aren't big enough, like we can be blind to specific things that we know are there. And so things like my understanding is that fungal mycorrhizae can actually be hard to detect by sequencing. [00:32:21] And so even if you visually see them in the roots by staining, you may not pick them up by sequencing. It is a challenge. Now, I, you know, I think that certainly studying the microbiome and understanding its relationship , with vine performance and soil health is, is crucial and is really, you know, one of the things that it's kind of the Holy grail [00:32:41] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. [00:32:43] Devin Rippner: We're trying to get there. [00:32:44] Craig Macmillan: We're trying to get there. That is definitely the message, but it also, there's definitely the potential. I think that there's a lot of people working on this. I think we're going to get there. It's, genomics is so big. I've talked to people that are like, at some point we, we, we will probably be able to get down to species, so we will know the bad actors from the good actors, we'll get a sense of what the real ecology is. [00:33:05] That's a decade plus away still, but we're going there. Right? We're we're gonna figure it out. We're gonna figure it out at some point. We're gonna get there. [00:33:14] Devin Rippner: Yeah, I agree. And there's, there are some techniques. There's some really cool techniques. So Jennifer Petridge at Lawrence Livermore lab does a lot Carbon 13 labeling of root exudates. So she basically gives plants, she treats them with carbon 13, enriched CO2. And then she looks at how much of the carbon 13 is then incorporated into the DNA of microbes to try to get at how well associated they are with plants. [00:33:41] I think that work is just incredible. And there's some folks at Davis that are, are working that in that area as well. That's kind of the stuff that gets me really excited to seeing when people are trying to really tie it into what's feeding on root carbon, , who's getting these exudates, things like that. [00:33:59] , that to me is one of the, One of the ways that we'll be able to, like, get at these questions is to, to start differentiating, the bulk soil microbiome from like the, the real rhizosphere associated microbiome. [00:34:11] Craig Macmillan: so you got a lot going on. You got , you got a bunch of different things happening. What's the path ahead look like for you? [00:34:17] Devin Rippner: Sure. So, and with with the soil health vineyard. I mean, I'm very excited to keep that going. We'll do another large sampling event in 2027 or 2028. We'll start making wine from our grapes. Not next year, but the year after that. So we'll be excited to see how our different management strategies influence our wine. [00:34:40] The wines that come out of the vineyard, or the wines made, made from the grapes that come out of the vineyard. So those are some of the things , I'm most excited about with regard to the vineyard. [00:34:50] Otherwise, I have a lot of data that I need to process and get out. That's something that's next. [00:34:56] I, I'm collaborating with some folks from the University of Illinois in Berkeley lab to look at changes to the Moro plots in Illinois over time. So that's the oldest agricultural experiment in the United States. The plots there have been in experimental treatments for 149 years. [00:35:15] And the reason I'm involved is because vineyards can be very long lived things, right? I mean, there are vines in California 100 years old. [00:35:23] This is one of the few experiments to me that's like comparable to what we see in vineyards. And so I'm really curious about, you know, how do, how do management practices influence soil structure, microbiome, the metagenome, the metabolome, things like that, on these century long timelines. [00:35:43] That to me is like some of the really interesting questions. If you have a vineyard for, for a century, or if you want a vineyard for a century, what do you need to do? How do you make that work? Knowing that it's going to take 20 years to have your vineyard be profitable. [00:35:57] I mean, you're already on a different timescale than annual crops, right? yeah. And so it's just like, how, how do we make our, our vineyards as sustainable and long lived as possible? Because , that, that initial investment is huge. It is so much money. [00:36:13] Craig Macmillan: I think that's really great. I think coming up with findings on other crops, but with practices that could be transferable is really great. You know, we don't need to be in our little grape silo. All the time. And in fact some of the soil microbiome stuff have been with interviews with people that had no connection to vineyards whatsoever. And it was great. The things that they were learning, they were absolutely transferable to this crop as well. That hasn't gotten that kind of attention. Grapevines are tough little suckers, really from an evolutionary standpoint, they're pretty rugged and so we can kind of get away with a lot just because of that. [00:36:48] And now I think the margin for error is less and less, especially when we get into tougher and tougher sites like you're talking about and different conditions, especially if you've farmed it for a while and things have changed. Being able to look at other, other systems and see what's there. [00:37:03] What is one thing that you would tell growers around this topic of research? [00:37:09] Devin Rippner: vineyard is very informed by grower practices. We have a grower board that like helps us make decisions. A message that I will say is like science is science and science is often pretty, you know, Like straight laced and rigid because it must be. know, We're going to find things and those results hopefully will be interesting. [00:37:27] But it's not the be all and end all . of science and research. Growers continuing to try innovative things push the boundaries of what they think is possible is really how we get progress. And I am hopeful , once this vineyard is more established to start going back out and working with growers. [00:37:48] When I first started in Prosser, I sampled from probably 40 different vineyards around the state just to get an idea of what the soil properties were like. And we've done some, some experiments with that. Some of our results are that permanganate oxidize oxidizable carbon. So this POC C classically it's been called active carbon. [00:38:08] There's some new research that suggests that it's, that's maybe a misnomer and it's really, often plant derived carbon. [00:38:15] It seems like there are some effects from that, that suppress disease. And I think that , that's an area where growers can really kind of play around and see if there's , waste from their vineyard and applying it to their vines trying to look at what that does to their, POC C values and also try, just getting in trying to look at some of the past issues that those vines may have and see if there's any decreases. [00:38:41] A lot of observational science is really important. I like hearing from growers that, yeah, I did this thing and it looks like it made a difference. There's a lot of value in that and, and I don't discount like grower knowledge in any way, shape, or form. Like it is deep knowledge growers know things that I don't, and I find that out all the time. [00:39:02] I value those observations. They they give me guidance on how I want to do my work. And we do try to incorporate that stuff into the soil health vineyard. Over time we are going to have to figure out like, You know, can we sustain funding for a vineyard for, say, 50 years if all we're doing is like a cover crop, some compost, and then a mix? [00:39:23] That seems like it's maybe not the most sustainable thing. Science requires that type of stuff, but it's just not that sustainable. So finding ways to make use of our, border rows and stuff like that is going to be important. And a lot of the research that we do is going to be informed by grower observations. [00:39:39] Craig Macmillan: Yep. Yep. Exactly. Where can people find out more about you and your work? [00:39:44] Devin Rippner: Sure. So you can look me up online. Devin Rippner a lot of stuff will pop up. There's a USDA website that has a listing of my publications and things like that. I also have a personal website. So those are some places to, to check out my work. [00:40:00] I try to make sure that my stuff is open access and usable. So, like the deep learning code, the image segmentation code that I co developed for X ray ct work is now being applied to like other types of imaging on. So people are using it at hops and a variety of other things on. [00:40:18] So that code is online. Like you can find it it's associated with my papers. You can play around with it and try it with your own stuff. Mhm. And, and, and that's a big thing for me is like open data. I, I love sharing a lot of the, the data that I have and the code that I have so that people can, repeat what I did. [00:40:35] Look me up online and yeah, you'll be, you can find that, find those resources. [00:40:40] Craig Macmillan: we will have links to a lot of that on the show page. So please visit the show page and check this stuff out. I was really happy to hear you use the word repeatability. [00:40:49] Devin Rippner: Yeah, [00:40:50] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. And I also was really, it's hard. it's very, very hard and it's often overlooked. You know, the, , the scientific methods we know today was all built around the idea of repeatability. That's how you demonstrate whether something's real, real, or if it's only real under certain conditions, blah, blah, blah, blah. So that's really great. I'm glad you're doing that. [00:41:08] Well, I want to thank you for being on the podcast. This is a Devin Rippner. He is a research soil scientist with USDA agricultural research service and an adjunct position with the crop and soil science department at Washington state university. Really fun conversation, Devin, lots to think about. I will be following this closely. Or annually, probably [00:41:31] Devin Rippner: Cool. [00:41:31] Yeah. [00:41:32] Craig Macmillan: these things are slow. I'm not going to be checking every week. But I just think it's really cool project and is real inspiration. And I would love to see the same kind of thing replicated in other places. [00:41:41] Devin Rippner: Great. Thanks Craig. That was really fun. [00:41:43] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. [00:41:49] If you enjoyed this podcast, Vineyard Team has a couple of in field tailgate meetings coming up this year that you won't want to miss. [00:41:56] The first is on February 20th in Paso Robles, and it is a dry farming grower around table. Now you don't need to be a dry farmer to enjoy this event. There'll be a number of different growers here talking about their experiences, trials, challenges, and successes. [00:42:13] The second event is on March 12th, and it is Grazing as a Sustainable Practice for Vineyards, taking place in Los Olivos, and we hope to have some adorable sheep on site. [00:42:24] Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Dev lots of research articles, plus, sustainable wine growing podcast episodes, 80. The Goldilocks principle and powdery mildew management, 90 nematode management for Washington grapes, plus a whole healthy soils playlist. [00:42:42] Now for the fine print, the views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speaker's own and do not represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of the USDA ARS. As such, the views, thoughts, and opinions. Presented by the speaker do not constitute an official endorsement or approval by the United States Department of Agriculture or the Agricultural Research Service of any product or service to the exclusion of others that may be suitable. The material and information presented here is for general information purposes only. [00:43:14] If you liked this show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing, and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts at vineyardteam.org/podcast. And you can reach us at podcast@vineyardteam. org. [00:43:28] Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team.   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: If one of your resolutions is to ramp up your sustainability messaging, let the SIP Certified Marketing Tips inspire you. [00:00:07] Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know that customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable wine growing. [00:00:26] All year long, we'll be sharing actionable tips, relevant statistics, and inspiring stories from other sustainable wine brands so that you can become fluent in sustainability and learn how to share your message. [00:00:38] There are two ways to get the marketing tips. Number one is to keep listening here to the Sustainable Wine Growing Podcast. The second is to get our monthly newsletter. Simply go to sipcertified. org and click stay up to date in the upper right hand corner. [00:00:54] Each article comes with links and visuals so that you can really embrace the marketing tip. [00:00:58] Now, if you're wondering what the hottest tips of 2024 were, we combined stats from our podcast downloads and webpage visits to bring you this list of the top five. [00:01:09] number five is episode 230, sustainable and organic. What is the difference? If you've ever asked this same question, this article will show that there's a lot of overlap between the two programs. The beauty of sustainability is that it addresses all aspects of. The wine growing business from soil health to social equity. [00:01:29] Number four is episode 228, Viticulture with a Vision, Oso Libre's Dedication to Social Responsibility. Oso Libre's founders, Chris and Linda Behr, started their Pour Vita Foundation in 2011 support causes that are near and dear to their hearts. By using funding streams for multiple winery activities, Oso Libre and their guests give back to these deserving causes too. [00:01:52] In fact, last year they supported our Juan Navarez Memorial Scholarship, a program that helps children of vineyard and winery workers pay for higher education through one of their Angus events. You can read their short story on our website and also look for the 2025 issue of Grape and Wine magazine. titled Blending Wine and Philanthropy at Oso Libre, The Social Impact of Sustainable Wine. And here's another plug for checking out these articles on our website, sipcertified. org, so that you can link back to each of those stories. Number three is episode 236, Safely Keeping Birds at Bay, Presqu'ile Vineyard's Sustainable Story. [00:02:31] Birds like finches and starlings are common vineyard pests. They damage fruit canopies and will even create nests in the vines. To protect their crop, vineyards typically use bird netting. While effective, netting comes with unsustainable downsides. They break down in the sun, installation and removal, requires a lot of labor, and they create waste over time, as nets must be replaced every few years. [00:02:55] Presqu'ile knew there was a more sustainable way to handle their unwelcomed feathered visitors. So they're utilizing a new technology, a laser. [00:03:03] Listen into this episode, or go to the show notes to find a link to read the article. [00:03:07] Number two is episode 220, how to Talk Sip With Six Wine Consumer Segments. Every wine enthusiast has different preferences, behaviors, and levels of investment in their pursuit of great wine. [00:03:20] Wine Intelligence identified six distinct consumer segments in the U. S. market. We saw this article and wondered, how can we tailor a message of sustainability to align with these differences? [00:03:30] Learn how to tailor your own message when you read or listen in to this short episode. [00:03:35] And the number one. Most popular marketing tip of 2024 was episode 240, stacking energy savings at Niner Wine Estates. Electricity use in the winery accounts for a large proportion of the end product's energy demand from keeping buildings and tanks at a proper temperature to powering equipment and lighting. Energy use in the winery adds up quickly. [00:03:58] Niner Wine Estates anticipated and adapted to increased demand and cost. Their efforts have even earned the business two symbols of sustainability achievement, SIP certified and LEED certified silver level. want to know how they did it, out the show notes to read their sustainable story or look for episode [00:04:17] If you are a listener on California's Central Coast, you do not want to miss Reciprocal February 2025. This month long event connects wine enthusiasts like you with sustainably minded brands through reciprocal club tastings all month long. [00:04:33] If you are a member of a participating tasting room, you will receive two complimentary tastings at any other participating location. This is a great opportunity. to try new wines and learn how they practice sustainability. You can find a full list at sipcertified. org forward slash reciprocal 2025. [00:04:54] Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team. Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Apply for SIP Certified Wine Marketing Tips eNewsletter ReSIProcal February 2025 Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet  Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Vineyard Team – Become a Member

In the face of climate uncertainty, growers wonder which grape varieties will flourish in their regions in the future, or if any will grow there at all. Joel Harms, Ph.D. student in the Department of Bioresource Engineering at McGill University in Australia is using artificial intelligence to simulate the potential to grow pinot noire in different regions of the world that are currently considered too cool. The project mapped 1,300 varieties to 16 different points of climate data including temperature, precipitation, and growing degree days. The findings could play a crucial role in identifying the winegrowing regions of tomorrow. Resources:         207: Managing Catastrophic Loss in Vineyards: Lessons from Cyclone Gabrielle in New Zealand Cal-Adapt Development of a generative AI-based model for guiding grape variety selection under contemporary climate dynamics Generative AI for Climate-Adaptive Viticulture Development Joel Harms Google Scholar Page Mapping Global of the Potential for Pinot Noir Cultivation under Climate Uncertainty using Generative AI University of Adelaide Wine Economics Research Center Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: In the face of climate uncertainty, growers wonder which grape varieties will flourish in their regions in the future, or if any, will grow there at all. [00:00:13] Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, Executive Director. [00:00:23] In today's podcast, Craig McMillan, Critical Resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates, with longtime SIP certified vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery. Speaks with Joel Harms, PhD student in the Department of Bioresource Engineering at McGill University in Australia. [00:00:42] Joel is using artificial intelligence to simulate the potential to grow Pinot Noir in different regions of the world that are currently considered too cool. [00:00:52] The project mapped 1, 300 varieties to 16 different points of climate data. including temperature, precipitation, and growing degree days. The findings could play a critical role in identifying the wine growing regions of tomorrow. [00:01:07] Want to be more connected with the viticulture industry but don't know where to start? Become a member of the Vineyard Team. Get access to the latest science based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both infield and online education so that you can grow your business. Visit vineyardteam. org and choose grower or business to join the community today. Now let's listen in. [00:01:34] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Joel Harms. He's a PhD student in the Department of Bioresources Engineering at McGill University. And today we're going to talk about mapping global future potential for Pinot Noir cultivation under climate uncertainty using generative AI. [00:01:51] Bye. Bye. This is a really interesting topic. I came across an abstract from a recent ASEV meeting and I was like, I just have to know more about this. This just sounds too interesting. But welcome to the podcast, Joel. [00:02:04] Joel Harms: Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. [00:02:06] Craig Macmillan: What got you interested in this topic in terms of this wine grape region? Stuff. [00:02:12] Joel Harms: I think it was more about I wanted to build models that are useful, I guess, broadly useful in vineyard management and like establishing new vineyards and like kind of covering some of the base problems. Initially, my thought was, how can we. see which grape varieties are alike. [00:02:32] How can we like make a representation of them in like a latent space. But then I found out , if I do that, that's, you know, somewhat useful, but if I take that just a step further, I could just connect it with climate data already. And then we would have a model that could, be used for prediction and it would be so I guess. How do I say like broad or general enough so that you could apply it in any environment. So like any climate can be used to predict any grape suitability matrix, which is quite nice. And so then I thought, no, let's do it. Let's try that. [00:03:11] Craig Macmillan: So your colleagues and yourself did some simulations, as we just mentioned specifically around Pinot Noir and the potential to grow it in different parts of the world that currently are considered too cool. Tell us exactly how you went about this. [00:03:25] Joel Harms: The abstract is kind of a case study on one application of, These models that we built. So we built very general grape variety recommender systems based on climate. And so we wanted to show a cool application globally. This can be applied to find regions that will be too hot in the future. [00:03:43] So we built the AI models first starting from looking at where grapes are grown and tying that together with what climate is there regionally. Unfortunately, you know, we can't use like very precise climate data because we don't have the exact location of each grape variety in each region. [00:04:02] Craig Macmillan: hmm. Yep. [00:04:03] Joel Harms: Yeah. So therefore, we use larger climate data. So like at 50 kilometer resolution, which is still helpful to, I think, gather overall trends, not so much, you know, to plan an individual vineyard probably, but just to see like in which areas maybe there would be. in the future interesting vineyard sites. [00:04:23] Just like kind of as like a pre guidance sort of model. And then we, tested it. We tried to validate this model and then we presented a first case study with Pinot Noir because we were presenting in Oregon at the ASEV conference. So I figured, you know, might as well do Pinot Noir if we're already in Oregon. [00:04:43] Craig Macmillan: Can you explain to me the artificial intelligence piece of this? I mean, you hear about it and you know, kind of what different types of AI do. I don't think a lot of people realize that, you know, that's a very general concept and people have designed particular tools for particular reasons. [00:05:01] So, in this case, what exactly was the AI component? What's inside the box, basically? How does it work? [00:05:07] Joel Harms: First off, I guess to explain for listeners , cause AI does get thrown around a lot and it's hard to know what that actually means. So when we're talking about AI, it's usually we're tying some sort of input data to some sort of output data. And we're teaching a very complicated mathematical function to map one to the other. [00:05:25] So like kind of a correlation. But it's not a simple correlation. That's why we need these models and that's why they're pretty fancy. [00:05:31] So in our case, we're using an AI that was inspired from the community of medical science, where similar models were used to connect, for example, the ECG measurements of a heart with like scans of the heart. [00:05:50] And then Trying to tie both of those datas together and to reconstruct them again to see if, like, you could find correlations between those and maybe if one of them is missing, you could, , predict what it would look like. And so, since this is a very similar problem, , and we have similar input data in the sense of, we have grapes, which grapes are grown where, and we have what is the climate there, roughly. [00:06:13] So we can tie that together and try to connect both of those types of data and then get an output of both of those types of data so that we can go from grapes to climate and climate to grapes in the same model. So we have these , you could say like four models. that are tied together at the center. So input grapes, input climate, then in the center where they get tied together and then output grapes, output climate. And so we train it to, reconstruct it from this combined space where we like, Scrunch it down, which is what the autoencoder does. [00:06:48] Craig Macmillan: So if, if I understand correctly, what we're talking about is , we know that we have the data and we know where wine grapes are grown, different types for different climates. Then we have the climate data in terms of how things may change over time. And then we're creating a prediction of. How those climates change, and then translate that into what we already know about wine grapes. [00:07:09] Joel Harms: Sort of. Yeah. But in our model for training, we just use the existing ones. So historical climate data and historical grape variety data. Once we have that model trained, we just apply it for new climates that come from like other climate models. So we don't do the climate modeling ourselves, but we extract that information and feed that into it and get the grape varieties output. [00:07:31] Craig Macmillan: So you look specifically, at least reported on areas that currently are considered too cold for growing a high quality pinot noir or growing wine grapes in general. What did you find out? What Parts of the world might be the new leading Pinot Noir regions. [00:07:46] Joel Harms: . So that depends a little bit on the exact scenario and how much the climate is supposed to warm. We have like two scenarios is what we looked at. We looked at a 8. 5 scenario and a 2. 6 scenario and going by the 8. 5 scenario, some of the regions that are improving are for example, Western China. And also Southern California, actually, and Quebec, , like Southern California is in Santa Barbara. I guess that's technically Central Coast, [00:08:17] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, well, that's interesting There's a lot of Pinot Noir in Santa Barbara County in the in the coastal zones Any other regions that popped up? [00:08:26] Joel Harms: Yeah, a lot of Australia seems to be doing better and like Northern France, [00:08:31] Craig Macmillan: Yeah pushing it to the north. Did England pop up? [00:08:35] Joel Harms: England, yes, but England seems to like stay the same in compared to historical. So not like as if it's improving, at least like from this, like rough map that we made. What we want to do is do it a bit more finely. The, this prediction, because we currently just used regions where wine is already grown, but then try to like interpolate just for calculation efficiency. Outward. So like our maps are created not only by the model itself, because that would be too calculation intensive. So for the, for the sake of simplicity, we did it like this, but we're still writing the final paper. So, you know, don't invest just yet, wait a little bit and then, [00:09:17] Craig Macmillan: I was gonna bring that up. Where should I put my money? [00:09:19] Joel Harms: Exactly. So don't do that yet. Wait for the final paper and then we will double check everything over. Oh yeah. Arkansas was one that was improving too. Very interestingly. Yeah. [00:09:28] Craig Macmillan: I was kind of surprised because having talked to guests, many guests from, you know, New York, from Texas, from people who consult in the Southwest Northern California, which can get quite warm. What we've talked about is the question of it getting too hot to grow quality wine grapes. [00:09:49] You know, wine grapes will grow to tolerate quite high temperatures. So, for instance, the San Joaquin Valley in California, produces a lot of wine grapes. They're not considered to be very high quality compared to coastal zones. So the vines do great and produce good crops and all of that. So there's concern that areas that have been kind of in the sweet spot, kind of in the, we call it the Goldilocks phenomenon where climate, soil, time, everything just all kind of fits together. [00:10:12] It sounds like this idea would be applicable to predicting what areas might become too warm for high quality wine [00:10:19] Joel Harms: Yes. Yes. It's definitely the case. Yes. And in our maps. You can see both at the same time because it sees like relative change, positive, relative change to, to negative. Some areas that look like they're not going to do so well in the future or less good in the future, even though they're like really good right now is like Oregon, unfortunately. [00:10:39] And the Azores or Northern Spain, even in Eastern Europe, a lot of areas. Seem to be warming up like in Romania at the coast. Not necessarily just the warming up part, but also because we consider 16 different climate variables, it could be the warming up part, but it could also be, you know, like the precipitation changing things like that, you know. [00:10:59] Craig Macmillan: You said 16 variables, we talked, you got temperature, you got precipitation, what, what are some of the others? [00:11:04] Joel Harms: Yeah, we got the growing degree days, the winter index, we got the Huggins index, we have radiation. Diurnal temperature range, the annual average temperature, for the precipitation, we have it like a three different scales, in the harvest month over the growing season and also throughout the whole year same for the temperature. And then we have the, growing indexes [00:11:26] Craig Macmillan: do you have plans to do this kind of thing again? Or publish additional papers from the work you've already done, because I think, it sounds like you've got a lot of interesting findings, [00:11:35] Joel Harms: Oh yeah. Yeah. The results only came in like right before the conference. We're still analyzing everything, writing everything. So the first thing that's coming up is a paper just on , how did we build the model and like all the validations and does it make sense with like expert classifications of how experts classify suitability for grapevines and things like that in the past to see if. That lines up as it should yeah, and then after that we'll publish some of these predictions and what we can learn from these and more detailed than how we did it right now where, most of it's like interpolated because we couldn't predict for every location, so like we predicted for some locations and interpolated. Just for computational efficiency, I guess, but you know, we're, we're getting there. Unfortunately, academia is quite you know, a slow profession. takes a lot of time. [00:12:24] Craig Macmillan: Yes, yes it does. And then getting it published takes a lot of time with reviews and whatnot. And so I just want to put a time stamp on this. This is being recorded in October of 2024. So, Give it some months, at least several, several, several, several. But it's exciting. This stuff's coming out. It'll be in, be in the literature. That's really, really great. [00:12:43] Joel Harms: And soon what we're trying to do is also release like a tool or something that, you know, where people can input their location and we can, our climate data, like call out the climate data and see what, what some of the predictions would be. Yeah. [00:12:57] Craig Macmillan: Oh, that's neat. [00:12:59] Joel Harms: I might've done that for Niner Vineyards just now to see, to see what, what's a suitable there, but only the current ones. [00:13:08] So I mean, it's kind of is exactly what you're growing. [00:13:10] Craig Macmillan: Funny. You should mention that. There is a a website called CalAdapt that allows you to put in some ranges and some variables specific to your location, you put your location in, and then there's a number of different models that you can run. Some are very conservative, some are not in terms of what the predictions are for climate change globally. [00:13:31] And then gives you a nice report on what the average temperature change might be in degrees Fahrenheit or Celsius also takes a stab at precipitation, although I talked to somebody who was connected to that and they said the precipitation is always kind of questionable. And also looks at things like heat waves, how many heat waves days over 100 or days over 95, you might expect because those can be quite fluctuating. [00:13:55] damaging. Even, even though vines can tolerate heat, if they're not acclimated, getting these big stretches of over a hundred, for instance, can be kind of stressful. I did that and kind of looked at it myself and thought, huh, I wonder if we had better, more, um, detailed information, what that might look like. [00:14:12] Another tool that was mentioned that you used was a deep coupled auto incoder networks. What are those? [00:14:18] Joel Harms: So that was what I described earlier, like these component models , where we have a. The encoder and decoder part, the input part is the , encoder and the output part is the decoder. And in the middle of these we have a latent space and then the coupled part means that we're having multiple of these that share their latent space. [00:14:38] So that's , where we're tying them together so that we can input either climate or grapes and get as outputs either climates or grapes. So it's like very, very flexible in that way and so I quite like that. And it turns out it does better than even some more traditional approaches where you just feed in climate and get out grapes like from a neural network or something like that. [00:14:59] Just like a neural network, because we have technically like four neural networks and all of them have three layers. So that's three layers or more. And so that's what makes them deep. [00:15:08] Craig Macmillan: Got it. [00:15:09] Is this your primary work as a PhD student? [00:15:13] Joel Harms: Well, as a PhD student, I'm still working on modeling. But not so much with grapevines, unfortunately. I'm looking at still climate models. How can we adapt for example, now we're looking more at the Caribbean. There's flooding issues. Particularly in Guyana. And so we're trying to, you know, help maybe the government to plan land use better in order to avoid, you know, critical areas being flooded, agricultural land being flooded and these type of things. [00:15:41] So it's more looking at flooding modeling, there's definitely some overlap in that sort of work, it's definitely still like in the area of using data science to help decision making which is the overall theme of this work. [00:15:55] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, and that was something that also came up in my little mini project was the potential for massive storms and also the potential for drought. Which, wasn't part of your work at this stage. Is that something that you would be able to find a way of including in your modeling that might give you some idea of how things might change? [00:16:15] And it's specifically what I'm thinking of is Cyclone Gabriel, I believe it was called, Gabriella just devastated parts of New Zealand. And raised a lot of concern about how, you know, when we were in these coastal zones, we go, Oh, yes, it's mild. It's great. But we're right near the ocean. [00:16:33] Right. And in October between 24, we've seen a very active hurricane season in the Caribbean and on the East coast and the Gulf. Do you think there's potential for this kind of thing to give us more of a heads up about what might be coming our way in terms of massive storm events? Cause that might affect how and what I do. [00:16:52] Joel Harms: I guess this wouldn't depend really on the grape variety itself. That would be more like a citing issue, right? Like where do you plant? [00:16:58] That's what we're looking at now with the like flooding mapping if there is a storm, where does the water collect? Which roads are cut off? Or, I mean, I guess in the case of vineyards, you could look at like, what would be the likely damage would there be now saltwater maybe even if you're depending on where you are. That's definitely something to look at. [00:17:17] All you need is sufficient, like past data points. So you can calibrate your models and then. You know, look at different future scenarios and what will be important to for the future is to look at what's kind of the certainty of these predictions, right? Like, what are your error margins? What's your confidence interval? [00:17:33] Because that might drastically alter your decisions. If it says, oh, it's probably not going to be too bad, but you're very uncertain about that, then you're probably going to take some more precautions than, you know, not because usually now we have A lot of models where their prediction is very, like is deterministic. [00:17:50] So they say, this is how it will be. And it's hard to tell where, you know, where those margins are of error, which is something to look at in the future for sure. [00:18:01] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, that is a challenge in the the model that I did for a Paso Robles vineyard Precipitation didn't really change very much which I was surprised by so it wasn't gonna become like a drought area completely but the potential ranged from five inches of rain a year to 60 inches of rain a year, which is why I was asking about these massive storms. [00:18:21] Maybe our averages, continuous to what we have now, but it may be a bunch of craziness year to year around that. And I think that is interesting and useful to know. So you prepare for it. [00:18:34] Joel Harms: that's something people are looking at, I think cause you can use some models to calculate sort of new climate indices. To see like from daily data train, like new climate indices to see these big storm events and things like that, and maybe incorporate that. That could help, , maybe with that sort of analysis of where even if it's the same average, the index is different because it measures something else. [00:18:59] Yes, I wouldn't know what they're called, but yes, I believe this already exists and is being improved. . [00:19:05] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. Yeah. With your experience so far, what do you see? Because everybody's talking about this. It's like the future in a world of artificial intelligence and this and that. In this particular area where you're, you're tying one set of variables to climate variables and also to historical weather. [00:19:23] In the big picture, beyond just wine grapes, but in the big picture, any topic, where do you see this kind of work going? You touched on it a little bit, when you close your eyes and open your mind what does the future look like? What, kind of tools are we going to have and what kind of things are we going to be able to find out? [00:19:38] Joel Harms: Yeah, that's interesting. I think it, it really depends on the data we have available and it looks like we'll have more and more data available. [00:19:47] So better disease models, location specific disease models to plan spray schedules better and things like that, they seem to be coming. I think I've seen parts of that already from some companies rolling out. [00:20:00] It's all about kind of the creatively using the data that you have available, because a lot of like my data, for example, that I used for this. This isn't necessarily new data, right? This comes from the University of Adelaide who collects where, which grape varieties are grown all over the world. [00:20:17] And then just historical, climate data. It's not very new, but just to put these together in a meaningful way with AI, that's going to be the challenge. And then also to test, is this reliable or not? Because you could theoretically predict almost anything, but then you need to check, is it just correlation? [00:20:39] Am I taking all the important variables into account? And we're developing AI very, very fast. But maybe we need to spend a bit more time, you know, trying to validate it, trying to see how robust it is, which is a major challenge, especially with these complicated models, because, I heard about this example. [00:20:57] Where in the past, for some self driving cars, their AI that recognized stop signs could be tricked if there was a sticker on the stop sign, and it would ignore the stop sign. Even though there's not a big difference, but you can't test for, you know, all of these cases, what might happen. And that's kind of the same for, , what we are doing. [00:21:17] So improving the testing, that would be, I think, a major A major goal to make sure it's robust and reliable or that it tells you how, how certain it is, you know, then at least you can deal with it, you know, and not just make a decision off of that. Yeah, [00:21:29] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. What the level of uncertainty is. That's always the getcha. [00:21:33] Joel Harms: yes, [00:21:34] Craig Macmillan: That's always the hard part. If you had one thing that you would tell growers on this topic, what would it be? Mm [00:21:43] Joel Harms: Specifically for my models, it would be to take the current results with a grain of salt. And then to sort of use this to, narrow down like a selection of grapes and to still run tests and things like that. Cause it's regional data, right? It's not going to tell you exactly what you should grow in your location. [00:22:02] Cause it's, you know, the weather data is based on four to 50 kilometers around you. You know, that's where we're like assembling the data from. [00:22:10] Craig Macmillan: that a 50 kilometer quadrant? [00:22:12] Joel Harms: yes. Yeah. [00:22:13] Craig Macmillan: Yep. Okay. Gotcha. [00:22:14] Joel Harms: Yes, exactly. So this tool is mainly used or useful if you use it to like pre select some varieties so you can see what might be good, you know, and then decide for yourself what you want. [00:22:27] The take home message is like, it's not supposed to take away grape growing experts and things like that, or replace them in any way, but it's supposed to like support it because. There's so many grape varieties and if climate regions or like regions where we're growing grapes are changing, where the climate is changing, we want to get the best choice. [00:22:47] And so we should probably look at all of them, all of our available options and see what we can do. It will narrow it down for you. And then, you know, you'll still have to see what works exactly for you. What wine do you want to produce? I mean, it doesn't take that into account, right? It just gives you what probably would grow well here. [00:23:03] Craig Macmillan: . [00:23:03] Yeah, then I think that there's going to be a future also in bringing in some either hybrid varieties or varieties that are not terribly well known. I've talked to people from Texas and from Michigan Pennsylvania, where the traditional vinifera only varieties don't do pretty well. Terribly well, often because of cold hardiness because of cold winters, they don't handle it, but there's hybrids that do great and make interesting wine. [00:23:27] And I think that would be an interesting thing to include in a model or if it came out kind of like the winner was something we don't normally [00:23:33] Joel Harms: Right. Usually we have a lot of hybrids in this because we have 1, 300 varieties. [00:23:39] Craig Macmillan: wow. Oh, I didn't realize that. [00:23:41] Joel Harms: so I think we have most of the. commercially used grape varieties, like in all aspects. [00:23:48] Craig Macmillan: yeah, probably, probably. [00:23:49] Joel Harms: Yeah. So it's quite, quite far ranging. We only excluded some where it was never more than 1 percent of any region, because then like our model couldn't really learn what this grape variety needs. [00:24:00] Right. Because it's like too small, even in the largest region where it we cut those out. So, cause else we would have 1700. But then like the 1300 that actually get used commercially at a significant scale. Those we have. The model is actually built like we have a suitability index. [00:24:18] But we're still trying to, , fine adjust so that we can rank not just what's popular and like how much will grow. Cause then you'll always get, you know, the top, the top 10 will look very similar for any region. But then through the suitability index, we actually get a lot of these smaller varieties that would fit very well also ranked in the top 10 or in the top 50 of varieties. [00:24:41] Craig Macmillan: They've mentioned fine tuning the model at this point. Is this particular project or this particular model, is this gonna continue on into the future? It sounds you have ideas for improvements. Is this number one gonna continue on into the future and is there gonna come a point when This will be available for the industry, industries internationally to do their own trials. [00:25:03] Joel Harms: Yes, I think so. So I think when we're publishing the paper latest at that point, we'll have the tool set up where people can try it out, put in, in their location. And I guess we're publishing the methodology. So you could build like a version of this yourself. It's not too crazy. Probably code will be published too. [00:25:24] So, you know, you could build this yourself if you wanted to, or you could just use the models we have trained already. Okay. And just apply them to your case. That's what the tool is for. . Right now it's like all code based. So like, it's not, not so easy where you just, drop your pin, like where you're at and then it gives you some predictions, , that's what we're aiming for. [00:25:44] Craig Macmillan: Fantastic. So our guest today has been Joel Harms. He is a PhD student in the Department of Bioresource Engineering at McGill. University. Thanks so much for being on the podcast. This is really fascinating. I'm really looking forward to how this work progresses. And I think it's very eyeopening for us. [00:26:01] Again, you know, one of the things I thought was fascinating is I've had all these conversations about areas that would no longer be suitable, but a flip on it and say, well, areas that might be suitable in the future. I hadn't thought of that. [00:26:12] Joel Harms: Why not? You [00:26:13] Craig Macmillan: why not? You know, that's, that's, that's a very interesting question, and it applies to other crops as well. [00:26:18] I just had never really thought about it like that. You know, maybe you can grow oranges in Iowa at some point. [00:26:23] Joel Harms: That, that would be nice. I guess. [00:26:25] Craig Macmillan: maybe [00:26:26] Joel Harms: maybe see. [00:26:28] Craig Macmillan: we'll see. We'll see. You never know. Anyway, Joel, thanks for being on the podcast. I appreciate it. [00:26:33] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by Cal West Rain. Since 1989, Cal West Rain has served growers on California's Central Coast and the San Joaquin Valley. As a locally owned, full line irrigation and pump company, they offer design and construction experience in all types of low volume irrigation systems, whether they're for vines, trees, or row crops. [00:27:03] In addition, CalWestRain offers a full range of pumps and pump services, plus expertise in automation systems, filtration systems, electrical service, maintenance and repairs, equipment rental, and a fully stocked parts department. Learn more at CalWestRain. com. [00:27:23] Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Joel, his research articles, plus sustainable wine growing podcast episode 207. Managing Catastrophic Loss in Vineyards, Lessons from Cyclone Gabriel in New Zealand. If you liked this show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing, and leaving us a review. [00:27:44] You can find all of the podcasts at vineyardteam.org/podcast, and you can reach us at podcast at vineyardteam.org. Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team.   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

In the wine industry, it is difficult to plant to demand. At the time of this recording in December 2024, the industry finds itself in a state of oversupply. Audra Cooper Director of Grape Brokerage and Eddie Urman, Central Coast Grape Broker at Turrentine Brokerage discuss the challenges ag faces from a lighter crop to regulatory restrictions to inflation. To remain viable, they stress the importance of farming a quality product that can be made into good wine and sold profitably to continue to support all aspects of the industry. Resources:         185: Why You Need to Talk About Sustainability 221: Future Proof Your Wine Business with Omnichannel Communication Turrentine Brokerage Turrentine Brokerage - Newsletter United States Department of Agriculture Grape Cruse Report Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: In the wine industry, it is difficult to plant to consumer demand. At the time of this recording, in December 2024, the industry finds itself in a state of oversupply. Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. [00:00:23] I'm Beth Vukmanic, Executive Director at Vineyard Team. And in today's podcast, Craig Macmillan, Critical Resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates, with longtime SIP certified Vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery, speaks with Audra Cooper, Director of Grape Brokerage, and Eddie Urman, Central Coast Grape Broker. At Turrentine Brokerage, [00:00:45] They discuss the challenges ag faced in 2024 from a lighter crop to regulatory restrictions, to inflation, to remain viable. They stress the importance of farming a quality product that could be made into good wine and sold profitably to continue to support all aspects of the industry. [00:01:04] Do you want to be more connected with the viticulture industry, but don't know where to start? Become a Vineyard Team member. Get access to the latest science based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both infield and online education so that you can grow your business. Visit vineyardteam.org To become a member today. [00:01:25] Now let's listen in. [00:01:31] Craig Macmillan: Our guests today are Audra Cooper and Eddie Urman. Audra is director of grape brokerage with Turrentine brokerage. And Eddie is a grape broker for the central coast, also with Turrentine. Thanks for being on the podcast. [00:01:42] Audra Cooper: Thank you for having us. We're excited. [00:01:44] Eddie Urman: yeah, thanks for having us, Craig. [00:01:46] Craig Macmillan: What exactly is a wine and grape brokerage? [00:01:49] Audra Cooper: It's a really fancy term for matchmaking and finding homes for supply. Whether that's through growers having fruit available and needing to sell in a specific year or finding multi year contracts, or that's bulk wine that has been made in excess or maybe a call for a winery needing to find a way of A pressure release valve. [00:02:11] Craig Macmillan: And so you match buyers with sellers, basically. [00:02:13] Audra Cooper: Exactly. [00:02:14] Craig Macmillan: On both sides of the fence. Both the wine and the grape side. Do you have specialists for the grape side? Specialists for the wine side? [00:02:21] Audra Cooper: We do. , you're talking to our newest hire on the grape side, Eddie, who's going to be focused on the Central Coast. We also have Mike Needham in the Central Valley on grapes. Christian Clare in the North Coast specializing in Napa, Sonoma, Lake, and Mendocino on grapes. And then we have three bulk wine brokers, Mark Cuneo, William Goebel, and Steve Robertson. [00:02:40] Craig Macmillan: Your world is very dependent on the marketplace. Obviously, that's what you do. You're brokers. The simple model of quote unquote the market. I think for most people is that you have a consumer who buys wine, wineries make wine, and they sell it to those people who buy it. Vineyards grow grapes up to wineries. [00:02:57] So if there's more demand from consumers, that means there's , more grapes in demand, there's more wine in demand, and there should be higher prices. Or the opposite. That's probably really oversimplified given the unique nature of the wine industry, because , it's not a widget, you know, I don't make a widget, sell it, then go, Ooh, I can make more widgets. [00:03:16] So because of the nature of the business things are on much larger timeframes, right? Audra, [00:03:23] Audra Cooper: They are. I mean, agriculture by nature is, a little bit more of a, what we call an on ramp and off ramp. There's kind of that distance from the time that something is needed versus the time it can be produced. And in the wine industry, it's really difficult to plant to demand. And oftentimes we miss the boat regards to meeting demand with our current supply needs. [00:03:44] So it's really difficult to not only predict, but figure out where consumption is going. And you talked about kind of the simplicity of it and it is true. You can kind of look at the macro market in a very simplistic way, but the reality is in particularly with California, it's very segmented. From value tier up to premium to ultra premium to luxury, and all of those different tiers have different timelines, and some of them converge at moments, depending upon whether there were oversupplied or undersupplied, . So yeah, it can get really complicated and very, very multifaceted. [00:04:18] Craig Macmillan: What's your comment on that, Eddie? [00:04:21] Eddie Urman: Well, I think Audra summed it up pretty well, but yeah, it's a very complex integration of all these things, and planting grapes oftentimes, like Audra said, we tend to overdo it. And we then tend to overdo pushing them out. And it's just kind of a cyclical thing through history where we go from undersupply to oversupply. And right now we're obviously in a pretty large state of oversupply. [00:04:44] Craig Macmillan: Over supply in terms of grapes? [00:04:46] Eddie Urman: Correct [00:04:47] Audra Cooper: and bulk wine. [00:04:48] Craig Macmillan: And bulk wine [00:04:49] what are the kinds of things that are going to lead to a market correction there? Are people going to have to pull out vines? Are they going to have to say, Well, I was planning to sell this wine for 20 bucks a gallon, now I'm going to sell it for 10. [00:05:00] What are some of the dynamics that are going to happen during this time? [00:05:04] Eddie Urman: Well, I think the third rung is consumption, right? Unfortunately the trend over the last two years is consumption is going down in general. And we don't see any signs of it at this time. That's showing it's necessarily going up. We're optimistic and hopeful that it will. And we look forward to seeing the data after the holiday season, but that rung is going to be really important. [00:05:25] The other part is still supply. So pushing vineyards. And we are seeing a lot of people push vineyards. There's no clear number yet of what's been pushed or what will be pushed, but it does seem like there's a lot of parties that will be either ceasing to farm or will be removing vineyards. [00:05:41] Craig Macmillan: This is for either of you to pick up. Are there particular segments where we're seeing this more than in others? Premium versus luxury example. [00:05:48] Audra Cooper: The removal seemed to be really heavily weighted towards the Valley specifically, more of the value tier, because that's our largest volume by far. So we see a lot of removals, particularly in the South Valley that really started to occur even before we felt really oversupplied, and then it started to move north from there, pushed into the Central Coast and even to some degree the North Coast as well. [00:06:10] So you're seeing removals throughout the state of California, and you could even argue that you've seen removals in the Pacific Northwest as well, there's been an oversupply position there, particularly in Washington, and the only two areas that we don't see that dynamic is perhaps Texas to a degree, as well as Oregon. [00:06:27] But there again, they're starting to feel oversupplied as well. They're kind of on the back end of this [00:06:31] the Central Valley is the furthest ahead. And so we may actually see a little bit of a slowdown in removals. They're coming up after the 26th vintage. However, it remains to be seen. I mean, water , constrictions and regulations are going to play a huge factor in that as well, as it will be in the central coast in the near future. [00:06:48] Craig Macmillan: Are there alternate or other crops that may go in, into place instead of grapes? [00:06:53] Audra Cooper: Unfortunately, right now, there's not a good answer for that. In the past, you'd say yes. And there were several alternative crops, particularly in the valley and the central coast, especially when you think of Santa Barbara and Monterey County. Paso Robles is in a little bit of a different position without, you know, a true crop to turn over to. But all of agriculture in California is struggling and has been really affected in the last 24 months, [00:07:16] Craig Macmillan: why the last 24 months, do you think? [00:07:18] Audra Cooper: you know, that's a good question. Part of it is kind of weather patterns in regards to some larger crops and oversupply consumers have certainly had some. Tighter budgets in a lot of respects to the economy. Inflation has played a huge role in that. When we talk about the wine industry, the wine industry is not a necessity as far as the goods. There is certainly a movement towards, you know, what they call no amount of alcohol is healthy for any individual of drinking age. So that certainly has affected our industry, but it's also affected other crops as well and other, other beverages, specifically alcohol. [00:07:53] Craig Macmillan: Eddie, in the Central Coast, what, what have you been seeing? [00:07:56] Eddie Urman: As far as vendor removals or as [00:07:57] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, as far as vineyard removals, things like that. [00:08:01] Eddie Urman: I mean, there are a large number of vineyards that are being pushed out. It's substantial both in Monterey County in Paso Robles, there's parties we're talking to that are also talking about pushing. This upcoming year and not replanting for a year or two. Some are potentially considering alternate other options where they can. But to segue on that, unfortunately it is exceedingly difficult right now to go to any other crop. Cause none of them are necessarily performing super well. [00:08:28] Craig Macmillan: Right. One thing that I'm kind of surprised by based on what you said, Audra, was that we're having the most removal in that value segment where we have the most supply. It would seem to me that if demand out there in the marketplace and folks don't have a lot of money, it seems like there'd be more demand for those value products. [00:08:48] Like, I would think that the contraction would be at the higher level, the expensive level, as opposed to the lower price level. Is there a mechanism there that I'm missing? [00:08:56] Audra Cooper: I think there's not necessarily a mechanism per se. I think there's a layer of complication there that doesn't make it a simple apples to apples position in regards to where consumers are spending their money. A lot of consumers who are brought by, you know, ultra premium to luxury, they may have not been as affected in a relative sense by the economy and inflation is someone who is perhaps playing in more of that value tier. [00:09:21] Okay. Whether it was bag in a box, larger liter, whatever it may have been, you know, that tier that's 12.99 and below had already started to see some impacts during pre immunization. And that was from 2012 until about 2020. And then it's just been really wonky since 2020 in our industry and really difficult to read the tea leaves and as far as where things were going. And I think a lot of the new plantings that we did, In 2011 through 2016 really came online in the central valley as well. So it just, it was almost a perfect storm, unfortunately, for the value tier. But that's not to say that these other tiers haven't been impacted as well, just to a lesser degree. [00:10:01] Craig Macmillan: Right, exactly. Is this also true on the bulk wine side, Audra? [00:10:04] Audra Cooper: Oh, certainly. I think anytime that you look at our industry, the bulk wine market actually leads the trend in regards to the direction we're going. So anytime we start to see multiple vintages, Or one vintage really start to increase in volume and availability in all likelihood. We're about 12 months, maybe eight behind the market with grapes. [00:10:25] So bulk will start to kind of slow down, stack up on inventory. Prices will start to drop. We'll still be doing just fine on grapes. We'll get multi year contracts. Prices are at least sustainable, if not profitable. And then suddenly we'll start to see the same trend on grapes. [00:10:39] Craig Macmillan: How many, or, and Eddie might be able to answer this for the Central Coast. How many folks on the grape side are having wines made from their grapes? Like under contract strictly for bulk. I've got a hundred tons of Sauvignon Blanc unsold. That's a lot, but unsold. I'm going to go ahead and take my chances on the bulk market. [00:11:00] Eddie Urman: you're saying Specking it. [00:11:01] So yeah, crushing it and specking it on the bulk market. Surely there are parties that did that, but I would say there is definitely a lot less parties that did that this year. In 2024 specifically. multiple reasons. One, specifically in Paso Robles, the crop was quite light which increased some late demand for some Cabernet specifically. [00:11:22] Sauvignon Blanc was one of the other varieties that was , in demand because of how light it was. Monterey in Santa Barbara County, it seems like there were parties that decided to just leave grapes on the vine. even in internal vineyards for companies that produce their own wine rather than turn it into bulk. And Audra, please add anything if you feel. [00:11:43] Audra Cooper: I think from a specific standpoint, you know, that was a great way of answering that. I think one of the things to keep in mind is I, I know that we should definitely be mindful of educating and being informative in a general sense, right? The rule of thumb when you're a grape grower and you're trying to sell fruit is if it is difficult to sell as grapes, It will typically be exponentially more difficult to sell as bulk wine. [00:12:07] And so taking that position as a way of bringing profit back , to your vineyard, nine times out of 10 is not going to work out. And that one time is technically a lightning strike and it's extraordinarily difficult to predict that [00:12:20] Craig Macmillan: So not a lot of folks wouldn't be wise to do that for a lot of folks. [00:12:23] Audra Cooper: generally. No, I mean, I think most growers, particularly independent growers do not have the wherewithal or the risk adversity to be able to play the bulk market in any significant way. Okay. Mm [00:12:37] Craig Macmillan: Well, let's talk about wineries playing the bulk market. I've got extra stuff. Now, if it's all internal, if I'm growing my own grapes and turning them into my products, it sounds like I would want to maybe leave things on the vine, or just simply not put my investment into producing those wines. Where do bulk wines come from if they're not coming from spec grower spec operations, if they're coming from wineries in particular? [00:13:01] Things that are cut out for quality, things that are cut out for volume [00:13:04] Audra Cooper: Yeah, a multitude of reasons. I mean, the wineries typically use the bulk wine market as what I had alluded to earlier, which is a pressure release valve, right? When they are short or they are long, they're looking to the bulk market, whether that's to buy or sell. Now, that's certainly not every single winery that does that. Particularly some boutique operations, or even a lot of the DTCs would prefer not to play on the bulk wine market, but at times dabble in it. [00:13:27] Another reason to go to the bulk wine market as a buyer is to start a program. If you've gotten, you know, interest from a retailer, for example, for, you know, a control label that's an easy way to research whether or not it is an economic profitable project for your winery, as well as whether or not you can actually find the varietal. And the volume needed for that project. [00:13:49] So there is a multitude of reasons for the bulk wine market to essentially exist and be utilized. But the traditional model is to sell excess on the bulk wine market to someone else who actually needs it. The challenge right now is, we hit about 29 million gallons of actively listed bulk wine for California back in April or June, and that number really didn't decrease until recently. It's the highest inventory that we'd ever seen going into harvest, and when we have those dynamics, that bulk wine market's utilization becomes a little bit, shall I say, sludgy, in the sense of, Most everyone's trying to sell they're not trying to buy. [00:14:29] Craig Macmillan: Eddie, do you have anything to add? [00:14:30] Eddie Urman: no, I think Audra summed it up pretty good. I mean, you asked, how does it end up on the bulk market? I don't think at this point, there's a ton of players that are planning to put it on the bulk market per Audra's point, but wineries are in their best faith trying to secure the amount of fruit they need to then make wine. That they have a home for IE sale, you know, some sort of sales, but as we've seen contraction in sales, unfortunately for some parties, they're forced to make decisions to put it on the bulk market. That'd be correct. Audra. [00:14:59] Audra Cooper: be a correct way of saying it. And also to have to remember, we're essentially making wine for the future when we're harvesting fruit, right and putting it in tank. And so it's really difficult to predict exactly how much 2024 someone's actually going to be able to put out on the shelf and ship. So I think that's the other element to is, by their model , what they purchased and what they received now, of course, 24 is going to be a poor example of that with how light the crop was, but in general, they're buying for what they predict to be their demand and needs [00:15:30] and in all reality, when it's bottled. Packaged and shipped out, those numbers may look dramatically different. Hence the reason why it's going to end up on the bulk market. If it in fact is already in excess. There are some negotiants that may actually in some years where they think the market's pretty good and they can be profitable, we'll go out and spec, but that kind of business model is few and far between compared to say 15 years ago, [00:15:54] Craig Macmillan: Interesting and that kind of leads us to where we are now. You've already touched on it a little bit. We just finished, this is November of 2024, we're just wrapping up the harvest in California. Obviously it's a crystal ball thing, but basically, at the moment, how are we looking? It sounds like we had a light harvest. I'm going to ask you about that. A light harvest. And it sounds like that was pretty much true throughout the coast of California. Is that right? [00:16:20] Audra Cooper: generally, yes, there were regions and AVAs that did better than others. For example, parts of the North Coast with the exception of Sonoma and Napa, so Mendocino Lake and Sassoon, they were not as light as, say, Paso Robles on Paso Robles Cabernet or Sauvignon Blanc, but they were still below expectations in most cases. There's just certain areas that were impacted further. far more and may actually be at historical low yields. And I'll let Eddie touch upon kind of his experience specifically in Paso, because I think it's one of the more impacted regions in California. [00:16:55] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, yeah. Go ahead, Eddie. [00:16:56] Eddie Urman: Yeah. I think kind of extrapolate on what Audra was speaking to. Paso Robles was exceptionally light last year. I think, you know, our numbers are fluctuating and we'll, we'll see what was actually processed, but potentially 50 percent down from the five year average on Paso cab. And potentially one of the lightest crops we've seen in, potentially 20 years, or at least for sure in my career. Luckily 2024 for Paso was light. And because of that, there were people trying to secure extra cab and South Blanc towards the end of harvest. Unfortunately to, to Audra's point, the rest of the state wasn't as light in other areas. It's going to be pretty interesting to see how it all unfolds because it's probably more regional. [00:17:39] Craig Macmillan: And so we're saying fortunately light because the longterm impact would be that we will have less wine going into an already crowded marketplace. [00:17:50] Eddie Urman: But we also came off 2023, which was probably historically one of the largest crops we've ever seen in the state. So if we would have had a crop like that back to back, that would have been devastating. [00:18:01] Audra Cooper: Yeah, man, that's, that's so very true. And I think it's really important too, to hit upon, you know, the late season purchasing and the run that we saw on grapes. specifically in Paso for Cabernet and to some degree Sauvignon Blanc as well. But I'm going to really kind of lean towards Cab and even some of the red blenders. A lot of that was replacement demand. So it was demand that had been met by a current contract, but because the crop was so extraordinarily light, It had to be made up for somewhere. So there was a need for the fruit that was contracted, but if we didn't have that dynamic with available grapes, we probably would have had grapes left on the vine. [00:18:38] And we did to some degree, but just far less than what was predicted in 2024. [00:18:44] Craig Macmillan: This reminds me also of the, the concept of volatility. How volatile is the bulk wine grape grape market? We talked about these long time frames, which means your price changes you would think would be slow. Is, is there a lot of jumping around just in the course of a calendar year? [00:18:59] Audra Cooper: Yes and no. It really depends on the year. I would certainly say that in very light years we will see more volatility on price. Then in years where it's way oversupplied, or we have a large crop that creates more stability, good or bad, with a heavier crop. But it's not as volatile as maybe some other markets that people are trying to, you know, short on, for example, with the Wall Street guys. It's not quite like that either. So there is a little bit more stability built into it. [00:19:27] I think the challenge Happens often is a lot of people build their business models off of the district averages and the district averages don't show as much volatility as the, you know, yearly spot market does. [00:19:40] And unfortunately, it used to be a rule of thumb that about 10 percent of California supply was on the spot market every single year. Now I think that's closer to probably 30 something percent. I mean, it's really jumped in the last few years. [00:19:54] We have to remember our industry has been in a really interesting and an unfortunate position of retracting over the last couple of years with consumer demand declining, with the economic impacts with inflation, with lack of, you know, operating loans being readily available like they were. [00:20:10] I mean, things have changed pretty dramatically. I have a strong belief. I won't even say hope because hope's not a strategy. I have a strong belief that, you know, as we go through some of these challenges, We'll essentially build back and we'll get to a healthier position. And I do think that some of the worst things are some of the bigger pain points we either, recently have gone through and are over with or that we're in currently. So I don't think it's going to get much worse, but it remains to be seen. That one's a hard one to kind of figure out. But my, my thought is that with the lighter crop, it's certainly going to help the bulk wine market, not stack up, you know, a large fifth vintage, cause we have currently five vintages stacked. Stacked on top of each other in bulk wine market, which again, is the most amount of vintages I've seen in the 18 years I've been doing this. And that does show, you know, we met with a client yesterday and they said, our industry is sick. And I think that's actually a really great way of putting it. We're we're kind of in a sick position and we just need to figure out how to get to a healthier spot. [00:21:10] Craig Macmillan: five vintages stacked up that, so we're talking, there's like 2019 that are still in the market. Then [00:21:16] Audra Cooper: There is a little tiny bit of 2019, there's a tiny bit of 2020, and then you get into 21, 22, 23, and then the 24s are starting to come on. [00:21:25] Craig Macmillan: is there a home for something that's that old, even [00:21:30] 2020, [00:21:31] Audra Cooper: I mean, 2022 is about the oldest vintage back that I would say, in all likelihood, there's a reasonable wine based home, and even that's starting to get a little bit long in the tooth when we talk about 21 and 2020. Forget about 2019, that should have gone somewhere at some point long ago. Those vintages in all likelihood, again, they're smaller amounts, I think they're less than 100, 000 gallons each. [00:21:57] They're gonna have to go somewhere, whether it's destroyed or they go to DM. [00:22:01] Craig Macmillan: right? What's DM. [00:22:03] Audra Cooper: Distilled materials. [00:22:04] Craig Macmillan: There we go. Perfect. [00:22:06] Eddie, if you were advising a grape growing, what is your view? Looking ahead, what's your crystal ball say as far as removals, planting, varietal changes, clone changes, rootstock changes, anything like that? [00:22:20] Eddie Urman: Yeah, well we get that question a lot and it's pretty difficult to answer. At this point, you know, growers should really be considering which blocks they should be farming. They should be strongly considering pushing out blocks that are older or have no chance at receiving a price sustainably farm it. economically. And as far as planting goes right now, it's all over the board. It depends on the region, you know, where you're at within the central coast. That's which is my region specifically. And even then it's pretty hard to justify to somebody right now. It's a good time to plant. [00:22:56] That's [00:22:57] Craig Macmillan: that does make sense, I am thinking about other interviews that I've done with, with plant, plant pathology. Where it seems like everything is going to someplace bad in a hand basket because vines are dying. Do I replant that? You would think that diseases, like trunk disease, for instance, would alleviate some of this. [00:23:15] Vines would need to come out of production. Do you see that kind of thing happening? Do you think people are picking not just older, but maybe damaged or diseased or infested vineyards, taking those out of production and then not replanting those? [00:23:27] Eddie Urman: Yeah, they definitely are. The, difficult thing with vineyards compared to certain other crops is the fixed costs that go into installing a vineyard, which has gone up drastically in the last 15 years. So it's really difficult for a grower to push a vineyard you know, spend $2,000 an acre to push a vineyard or whatever it may be, and then decide, okay, we're just going to replant next year and spend 45, 000 or 40, 000. On reinstalling a vineyard. It's, it's a lot of money. Especially if it's on spec and, and honestly, sometimes it can't even get financing to do it. [00:23:59] So unfortunately, a lot of these players will need to say, we'll try to stick it out and say, okay, what if we just weather the storm one more year, the eternal optimist, the eternal optimist. View. I think we're finally starting to see that some people are, are making some tough decisions and it's, it's sad to see, but it's what needs to happen as far as pushing some of these vineyards that are diseased or too old to be productive. [00:24:20] Audra Cooper: I think he did a, you know, a service to everyone by talking about that, because the older plantings for as long as people had to hold on to them you know, we, talk a lot about, you know, oh, the 1990s plantings and they need to go away. Well, that's really easy to say it's a little more difficult to do, particularly again, if you're an independent grower. Relatively small, maybe your 20 acres, you know, the likelihood of you being able to get a planting contract and or getting financing to redevelop is slim to none. So you're going to hold on as long as you can. And that really has kind of added to the bottom line of supply as well. We have a lot of acreage that is finally starting to get removed that should have been removed years ago. [00:25:01] Craig Macmillan: And again, thinking in like classical high school economic terms It seems like grape prices have been going up, at least on Paso and some of those kind of more luxury areas. Is that true? Or is there a real cap on price compared to what it could have been? Or are we in decline? What, what's, what's happening right now? [00:25:24] Ha [00:25:24] Audra Cooper: I think that's actually a very loaded question in some respects because [00:25:30] Craig Macmillan: yeah, it [00:25:31] Audra Cooper: It's highly dependent on what we're talking about, right? If we're talking about Westside and we're talking about some of the Rhone Whites that are now in vogue, yeah, their pricing has started to increase even in spite of the market, right? Because they are in demand, but they're more of a niche market as well. They're not part of the macro market. Whereas you look at Paso Cab, The district average was starting to kind of climb back up again, but if you look at the spot market, it has declined dramatically over the last two years. And I think we're in our third decline now, as far as per year per vintage you look at, for example, Monterey County, Pinot, and I think you can easily make the argument prices dramatically decreased over the last several years. You know, it had a great run post sideways and unfortunately we way over planted and we planted it in a time where there was a lot of virus material that unfortunately got put into the ground and then we oversaturated the market on the shelves as well from a national distribution standpoint, if you want to talk about maybe some cool climate, Sarah, yeah, pricing continues to go up, but they're again, very nichey. So I guess the long winded thing is macro sense. Prices have been on the decline. Niche, it depends on what it is and where it is. [00:26:46] Craig Macmillan: And I, I got this from you, Audra, from another interview you did. What is the difference between a light harvest and a short harvest? And the reason I ask this is because it, on the wine side, talking to people, it's like, Oh, it's going to be a short harvest, coming up short. As in, I don't have enough. [00:27:02] I'm coming up short. It's like, I don't have dollar bills in my pocket. That's totally different than having not a lot of grapes. [00:27:09] Audra Cooper: Yeah, I mean, from a market perspective in which we operate, those two words have very different definitions. Light to me is regarding your yield per acre, your production. It's a light year. We're below average thresholds. Short on the other hand is more of an economic demand supply term that we utilize when The actual crop being delivered falls short of the actual demand. And that's a little bit tricky this year because a lot of people were saying the crop is short. Well, it was in only some cases. For example, Sauvignon Blanc, specifically in Paso, it was short. There's, I don't think there's really any arguing that. Paso Cab, I think it depends on what winery and which grower you are. There were growers who were sold out and fully contracted that were not able to meet their contracts and their wineries would have taken every single time they could have delivered. That's a short situation. Now, on the other hand, I've got some other stuff that say is like a 1997 planting that, you know, didn't have a whole lot of demand. They were light in their crop yield, but they were not short in their supply. [00:28:18] Craig Macmillan: What are things that growers in particular can do to set themselves apart in the marketplace? You mentioned niche, we've mentioned county average pricing, wherever you would like to be selling their grapes for more than that. And they do. What are things that people can do to kind of set themselves apart? Eddie. [00:28:35] Eddie Urman: That's a great question. It's a very difficult question. I think I'll start on the other end of the spectrum. You hear somewhat frequently people talk about minimal farming, or can they do just to get you by this year, get you into the next year what we've discussed with multiple people and what my belief is, unfortunately, if you decide to minimally farm or do the absolute bare minimum, you're boxing yourself into a area of the market. Where there's no chance you're gonna get a price that's really gonna even break even. I think most parties would agree to that. The best thing for our industry, and specifically Paso Robles, the Central Coast, is we need to continue to deliver quality products that, you know, a winery can make into good wine and sell at a good price. Right. So we need to continue to improve on our farming techniques, improve on our utilization of the resources we have to provide that product and reach a sustainable point of price to where vineyards can sustain, growers can continue to stay in business, and wineries can then take that product and sell it in a bottle profitably at a store or restaurant or whatever it may be. [00:29:45] So I kind of danced around your question, but my personal opinion is, if you want to be in this business and you want to create a product, you know, create a grape that people want to buy, you have to put the money into it to farm it. It sounds easy to say it's extremely difficult for the people making these decisions right now. [00:30:03] Craig Macmillan: You may have to spend a little money. [00:30:05] Audra Cooper: you definitely do. I mean, I think, Anytime that you slow down on what you spend, unfortunately you start to decrease your marketability. And that is so difficult in years like this, where as a broker, you watch someone cut their budget and their spending in half and you immediately notice, I can't sell your fruit. And that's a difficult thing because you can't necessarily guarantee that you can sell their fruit either. So how do you justify someone spending, you know, their normal budget? [00:30:37] One of the things that growers specifically can do is they can identify their value proposition. And for many, it's going to be unique, and some of them are going to have similarities. Part of that is, and I'm probably going to get myself in trouble a little bit here, the old kind of lead with, you know, I've gotten these gold medals for the wine that I produced off of my vineyard at these, you know, county fairs or this competition. Unfortunately, they just don't count anymore with marketing winemakers that are, you know, new on the scene, or perhaps with a new corporation, or, Somebody who's been through kind of the ropes, these things don't have any weight anymore. [00:31:17] But what does have weight is understanding what your buyer's needs are and how your vineyard actually fits those needs. So really understanding, where you fit into the market. Not everyone's going to have the best grapes in the region. And that's okay because maybe that is already oversaturated. [00:31:34] Maybe you need to hit a middle tier winery that's selling at 15. 99 and you know that you can be sustainable at $1,500 because this is your budget XYZ and it fits. You know, you don't necessarily have to be the 3, 000 or 4, 000 guy on the west side in Adelaide or Willow Creek. That's not going to be for everybody. [00:31:54] So really finding your position is really important and also what you provide to that buyer. And it's really simple, and I know it's actually probably very elementary to say, but what can you do to help make the people you work with at that winery make them look good? Because they'll also do that for you in return. [00:32:11] Craig Macmillan: and specifically in your experience, especially to start with you Eddie are there particular practices management styles, management philosophies that seem to be attractive to wineries that they're more likely to maybe buy from that grower? [00:32:25] Eddie Urman: Yeah, I'll just probably give a little more detail here, but my experience comes mostly from larger scale farming. At the end of the day, I think the more you put into farming it appropriately, IE you know, good pruning techniques good cultural practices, whether they be shoot thinning leafing, depending on your trellis style wire moves second crop drop or, or green drop. Those are all things that, you know, wineries are going to think are a positive thing. [00:32:54] Now, is it going to match every single program to Audra's point? And you don't always have to be the person selling $3,000 per ton cabernet. Some people can make just fine in those middle tiers. [00:33:03] And we need those people too, because there's bottles that need to go on the shelves there. So if you can have an open, reasonable discussion with your winery and what their expectations are and what you can actually provide at a certain price point and yield I think that's really important place to start. [00:33:18] Craig Macmillan: Audra? [00:33:18] Audra Cooper: Yeah, I think there's a couple things. Again, this is very elementary, but say what you do and do what you say. Following through with your word and what your plan is, is very, very important and being very consistent with your practices and the end product that you try to provide. I mean, consistency in agriculture, particularly in growing wine grapes, is very difficult, but those who achieve it are the ones that typically don't have as much volatility in their ability to sell fruit. on, you know, a term contract, typically. [00:33:46] I think the other thing, too, keeping in mind is managing personalities, too, and understanding, you know, who's the right fit for each other. I think that's really important, I think, from a practice's standpoint and I think this is becoming more and more commonly acceptable, but shoot thinning, when I first arrived in Paso even Monterey County, for that matter, is, was not very common. [00:34:10] It's becoming more and more common, and I think it's actually very important. And Eddie has kind of reaffirmed and reassured me since he started with Turrentine Brokerage, and I kind of failed to remember my basics. Pruning is everything. And I think sometimes often more than not, you know, pruning actually kind of gets It's in my mind kind of degraded and, you know, people try to make up for things later on and we start with the right foundation, usually have some consistency. [00:34:36] Craig Macmillan: So that's somewhere you may want to pay more attention and spend some more of your money there than in some other things. [00:34:42] Audra Cooper: Well, and your plan starts there, right? [00:34:43] So whatever you start with at pruning, that's your beginning plan. In all likelihood, you need to write that out. [00:34:49] Eddie Urman: , be intentional with your pruning plan. From the time you start the season, you should have a plan. Okay. This is what we're going to target this year and you got to stick to it. . [00:34:57] Craig Macmillan: What about, , certifications? There was a time not that long ago when going for whether it's SIP or organic we've got regenerative now a lot of folks looked at that and said, hey, this is going to help set me apart. This is going to help and with buyers, buyers are going to be interested in wanting these types of products. [00:35:18] Have you seen that take place? [00:35:20] Audra Cooper: Yeah, I have a really, really strong opinion on sustainable certification. And I'm sure a lot of our clientele is probably tired of me hitting this drum too loudly, but the reality is at one point, sustainable certification, regardless of which it is. Was a nice to have and the occasional request now. It's a it's a need to have must have [00:35:39] if you are not sustainably certified you are cutting your marketability I wouldn't say in half but pretty close now a lot of our buyers are requiring it and even if they don't require it suddenly asking at the end of harvest Oh, did they have a certification? and then the answer is no well now you may be on the chopping block of we may not re sign that fruit because Our retailers are asking us, what are we doing in regards to, you know, our kind of our social impacts in our economic and our environmental impacts? And it may not be on the bottle per se, but it's in the conversation. And so to be able to provide that information to the end user is really important [00:36:19] when it comes to the other certifications. Certainly organic is trending. It is trended off and on in our industry. Unfortunately, we don't see a big premium being paid for, for grapes that are organically certified with some exceptions. [00:36:33] And so that's really hard, I think, from an industry to, to really grow in that manner. Regenerative is certainly another trend. I think we're on the beginning cusp of it, so I don't see it as, you know, impactful as sustainably certified on macro level. As I do sustainable. So it'll be interesting to see where that goes. [00:36:53] I think organic those probably going to trend a little bit more in 26 and 27 just based on the players that are currently asking about it. [00:37:01] Craig Macmillan: What do you have to add, Eddie? [00:37:02] Eddie Urman: Yeah, I think Audra's absolutely right. We are in a state of excess or oversupply. So wineries are more intensely looking at. How can we differentiate one vineyard or one grower versus the next? And sustainability comes up in most conversations regarding that. So it's turning more from an option to more of a necessity. [00:37:24] I think one thing that there's a trend for unfortunately too, or it can be unfortunately for some people, is they're herbicide free. So there are some people that are interested in herbicide free. It's not a certification, [00:37:34] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, just simply as a practice. Yeah, I, agree with you. I'm hearing more and more about that all the time. And that's a, that's a big shift for a lot of growers. That's a very costly change to make. But you're absolutely right. That is a topic of conversation. That is definitely something that people are talking about in, in the broader world. There's a lot of news attention to that, especially around places like France and stuff, or that's going to be kind of a requirement probably in the future. [00:38:01] Audra Cooper: I just want to add really quick. One of the challenges that we see is Oftentimes wineries will come to the market requesting these differentiation points, right, in regards to practices, and it's really difficult because when they come to the market, a lot of these processes and procedures needed to have already been put into place, right? They would have already had to be intended or implemented in the field. And so we're, again, almost a bridge behind in regards to what demand currently is and, and this particular trend. Especially when we talk about organic herbicide free. These are very intentional, time intensive planning processes that we've got to get ahead of. [00:38:43] And I don't have a great answer because the market doesn't support a higher price per ton right now. And the reality is there are capital intensive changes in farming, but we're going to need to find a solution here soon because I do see this as a challenge in the market moving forward. [00:38:59] Craig Macmillan: and I think there's some research that kind of bears that out even at the consumer level where if I'm presented with two products that are the same price and one has a desirable quality, whether it's a practice or certification or something like that, you would say, you know, Which one would you like? [00:39:14] You say, well, I want the sustainable one. And then you ask the consumer, well, how much would you pay? And there's very little willingness to pay difference in some of these studies. In others, they show a meaningful amount, but a lot of them, a lot of the studies don't. And so I think we're kind of moving towards a standard operating procedure that's gonna be around these things and that's gonna raise costs and that's gonna be a real financial challenge for people, I agree. [00:39:38] Eddie, what is one thing you would tell growers around this topic of the market and everything else? [00:39:43] Eddie Urman: I think it was , the statement I made earlier is be intentional, like have a plan going into this year. We farmers tend to be optimistic and we tend to just think, okay, well, this year it's going to turn, you know, we've had a couple of bad years. It's going to get better this year. There's no guarantee that's going to take place this year. And we'd love to sit here and say it will. So make sure you have a plan that makes sense. And has a reasonable chance at having a positive outcome. If it's farming your 30 year old vineyard, 35 year old vineyard, that's for sure, only going to get three tons an acre or less on a best case scenario, no weather influences, no outside factors, no heat spells, and it's going to cost you 5, 000 an acre to farm it. You're not going to make your money back in most instances, unfortunately, not even break even. [00:40:29] Craig Macmillan: Audra, what is one thing you would tell growers? [00:40:31] Audra Cooper: That's a good question. And I think it's highly dependent on the grower and the clientele and where they are and what they have. I think that planning for your future is critical right now, not taking it year by year. And making changes in advance of needing to make changes is a huge one. Honestly, it's really getting sharp with your business pencil and in your business intention, your business plan. It's not just farming right now. I think you have to plan on how do you survive the current marketplace and how do you get to the other side? And unfortunately, it's not a cookie cutter plan for everyone. It's very customized and it's very specific. [00:41:11] And the other thing that I mentioned earlier, really understanding your value proposition in the market. That is critical because I can't tell you the number of times I've had people And very wonderful, good growers who are very intelligent, but they were very misguided by whether it was, you know, a real estate agent or a consultant or just people surrounding who also had good intentions, but they weren't knowledgeable about the marketplace. And, you know, those growers either planted wrong, entered the market wrong, had to have high expectations built into their budget on the price per ton long term, all these things matter. And all these things really matter for success. [00:41:48] Craig Macmillan: Where can people find out more about you two? Audra. [00:41:51] Audra Cooper: Yeah you can go to our website, www. TurrentineBrokerage. You can of course call myself or Eddie or email us. You'll often see us up on, you know, a stage or in a room speaking on behalf of the marketplace. I've got something coming up soon in February as well. Yeah, there's, there's a multitude of ways of getting a hold of us. [00:42:10] Probably our website's the easiest because it has all the information. [00:42:13] Craig Macmillan: Fantastic. Well, thank you both for being on the podcast. Really interesting conversation. lot to think about. A lot to think about. Intentional farming, I think that's one of the key things we're taking away here is what's your intention. And that's not always such an easy thing to decide upon. You know, it's tough. [00:42:31] Audra Cooper: It is tough. We thank you and we appreciate it. It was a pleasure talking with you as well. [00:42:36] Eddie Urman: yeah, thank you very much, Craig. [00:42:37] Craig Macmillan: You bet. So our guest today, Audra Cooper, she is director of grape brokerage and Eddie Urman, who is central coast grape broker for Turentine brokerage. Thank you both for coming out and to our listeners, keep downloading those episodes. There's lots of great information there. Check the show page or there's lots of resources and look for other podcasts. [00:42:55] We have tons and tons of episodes on all kinds of topics and please keep coming back and thank you. [00:43:01] Audra Cooper: Thank you. [00:43:02] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Turrentine brokerage crush reports, and sustainable wine growing podcast episodes, 185, why you need to talk about sustainability. And 221 future proof your wine business with Omnichannel communication. [00:43:27] If you liked this show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts at vineyardteam.org/podcast. And you can reach us at podcast at vineyardteam.org. [00:43:40] Until next time, this is sustainable wine growing with the vineyard team.   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

Since the year 2000, wineries in the United States have grown from 2,000 to nearly 12,000. How can a brand stand out in the market? Dan McCole, Associate Professor in the Department of Community Sustainability at Michigan State University researches the impact of tourism on communities. He studied what makes brands that make the majority of their sales in the tasting room successful in new wine regions including Texas, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. Dan shares tips on how to sell new hybrid varieties, what messaging has the biggest impact on sales, and what customers are really coming to the tasting room for (it's not wine!). Resources:         222: How Sustainability Sells in a Tough Market | Marketing Tip Monday 246: 3 Ways to Make Your Tasting an Experience | Marketing Tip Monday Dan McCcole Exploring Winery Visitors in the Emerging Wine Regions of the North Central United States Market research reveals why consumers are drawn to wineries in Michigan Survey of Wineries and Non-winery Tourism Businesses in 25 Emerging Wine Regions The impact of different product messages on wine tourists' willingness to pay: A non-hypothetical experiment Understanding winery visitors  Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Since the year 2000, wineries in the United States have grown from 2000 to nearly 12, 000. How can a brand stand out in the market? Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, Executive Director, Since 1994, Vineyard Team has brought you the latest science based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both infield and online education so that you can grow your business. [00:00:37] Please raise a glass with us as we cheers to 30 years. [00:00:41] In today's podcast, Craig Macmillan, Critical Resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates, with a longtime SIP certified vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery, speaks with Dan McCole, Associate Professor in the Department of Community Sustainability at Michigan State University. [00:01:00] Dan researches the impact of tourism on communities. He studied what makes brands that make the majority of their sales in the tasting room successful in new wine regions, including Texas, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. [00:01:15] Dan shares tips on how to sell new hybrid varieties. What messaging has the biggest impact on sales and what customers are really coming to the tasting room for hint It's not wine [00:01:28] want to be more connected with the viticulture industry, but don't know where to start become a vineyard team member Get access to the latest science based practices experts growers and wine industry tools through both infield and online Education so that you can grow your business Visit vineyardteam. org and choose grower or business to join the community today. Now let's listen in. [00:01:52] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Dan McCole. He is an associate professor in the department of community sustainability at Michigan state university. And today we're going to talk about some lesser known smaller wine regions and the challenges of marketing hybrid wine grape varieties to customers and some successes. [00:02:08] So thanks for being on the podcast, Dan. [00:02:10] Dan McCole: I'm happy to be here, Craig. [00:02:12] Craig Macmillan: Before we, we get talking about wine in particular I'd like to kind of get oriented in your larger focus. You've done a lot of work in the world of natural resources and ag based tourism contributing to community sustainability. And I think that that's a really interesting topic just in general. [00:02:28] Can you tell me a little bit about your work just in the broad scheme and kind of what kinds of things you're interested in [00:02:33] Dan McCole: Yeah, sure. It's funny, I actually got into wine. I'm really a tourism scholar. And shortly after I arrived at Michigan State University, I was pulled into a project, that was looking at specifically at tourism. It was part of a larger project that looked at cold hardy wine varieties. So cold hardy hybrids. [00:02:55] And there was a team of viticulturalists and enologists and economists. And I was sort of brought in there, for the business portion of the team specifically looking at tourism, but that also some consumer behavior questions that we had on that as part of that project. My focus within tourism is the impact of tourism on communities specifically. [00:03:15] I'm not a hospitality guy. I look at the impact of tourism on communities. And so, you know, especially in areas like where I live in Michigan the industrial Midwest where, you know, the economy is shifting a bit. You have these places that sort of former manufacturing areas, former extraction areas for like lumber and coal and things like that. [00:03:36] They're looking to new industries and tourism is a big part of it. And so we look at all the impacts on those communities, both positive and negative. We look at economic impacts, sociocultural impacts and environmental impacts. [00:03:47] Craig Macmillan: it's exciting to see the growth in wine industries throughout the United States. I think that it's fascinating and it's only going to continue. In my opinion, I think we're going to see more of this, but again, then you're selling wines that are not commonly known. You're using the Frontenac one example. Marquette in particular was a variety that you had done some special work on. Tell me a little bit about what you did around that. [00:04:12] Dan McCole: Just to echo what you're saying. First of all, about the growth in, in the number of wineries is crazy. In the year 2000, I think the U S had 2000 wineries. Now we're up to almost 12,000. That's just crazy growth. So it's not only interesting, it's just fascinating. And. A lot of that growth has happened outside of the traditional wine areas in the West Coast. [00:04:30] It's happened, you know, in places like where I live in Michigan, but Pennsylvania, Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Texas, you know, Virginia, everywhere. And that to me is quite interesting because a lot of these wineries are, they're pretty small. And they sell a lot of their wine out of the tasting room which makes it a tourism product really, because they have to drive visitors to their tasting room. [00:04:52] So that's, that's what got my interest. But in a lot of these areas, you can't necessarily grow the traditional wines that you can out in California, for instance, in the central valley or, you know, Napa, Sonoma. Here in Michigan, we do have some areas where you can go vernifera and mostly, you know, like German varietal, the Riesling is, is quite good here, you know, cool, cool temps, but they're really in small microclimates, but a lot of the areas I tend to work in, they rely on, you know, hybrid grapes, wine grapes. [00:05:22] And, you know, these have just developed over the last 20 years, a lot of them or, you know, some of them are a little bit older but some of them are quite new, including Marquette, which is probably, You know, 15, 16, 17 years old since it was developed at University of Minnesota. And that wine in particular is quite interesting because when you're talking about, especially up here in the North where I work and with a lot of the wineries I'm at, they can do okay with white wines, but red wine has always been a bit of a challenge. [00:05:48] And so Marquette comes along and it's pretty promising wine for making, you know, red wine. So everybody was pretty excited about it. We wanted to know a little bit more about what you tell consumers that will impact their interest in a wine. In academia, we talk about this concept called willingness to pay or valuation. [00:06:09] Essentially what we're talking about is, how much does a product mean to somebody? And that they're willing to buy and how much are they willing to buy it for? So we did these interesting studies with Marquette looking at what can you tell somebody about this grape? That will increase their valuation of it because when we were talking to wineries, you know We'd ask them like what do you tell them about Marquette? And they said, well, you know, we tell them this and that. And as we had these conversations with a number of wineries, we could pretty much break down what they told about this grape into three categories. [00:06:42] One was sort of these sensory descriptions, medium bodied wine, grandson of Pinot Noir and, with hints of, and flavors of such and such [00:06:54] another category of information that they were talking about was, the local message, you know, everybody's into locally produced, locally you know, grown local, local, local. They talked about how the Marquette grape was developed sort of locally specifically for these environments. It doesn't require as many agricultural inputs you know, to be able to grow here. It, Helps local wineries to produce these kind of wines, et cetera, very local, local, local message. [00:07:23] And then the third thing was they talked about how wines made with Marquette grapes had won competitions at international wine competitions. And so, you know, that was one of the things they told about them. And so we wanted to know, like of those messages, does anyone have. A little bit more bang [00:07:38] Craig Macmillan: Right, right. [00:07:39] Dan McCole: you know, that you have, and, and, you know, that could be communicated on the label or in the tasting room or in tasting notes or whatever. [00:07:46] So, you know, essentially we did this complicated experiment and which is, you know, a whole other story on its own, but but it was kind of interesting, but essentially what we found was that one of those three messages didn't really impact people's willingness to pay. One of them did a little bit. And one of them did quite a bit. [00:08:05] Craig Macmillan: I'm on the edge of my seat. [00:08:06] Dan McCole: You're on the edge of your seat. Okay. I was wondering if you wanted to have a quiz. They didn't want to pay less, but they didn't necessarily want to pay more. [00:08:13] The local message, people were willing to pay more for that, but not a lot. [00:08:17] It was the awards, and it was interesting because we had people sample four different Marquette wines, and we didn't ask them about the specific wines, we just asked questions about Marquette wines. Here are four Marquette wines, you know, so you get a sense of this grape and the wines made from it. [00:08:33] And we didn't say that these wines had won awards just that wines made with Marquette had won awards. But that made people pay a willingness to pay a lot more. [00:08:41] Craig Macmillan: Interesting. [00:08:43] Dan McCole: And, and I think that has something to do with wine itself as a product. Part of our other research shows that, you know, The people who tend to go to tasting rooms in these emerging areas don't necessarily have the same level of wine knowledge or wine experience or wine purchase behavior. [00:08:58] And so they might be looking a little bit more toward people who are experts in this to tip them as to if they should like this or not. I mean, we're all kind of like that with, with wine, the points and things like that, you know, let's see what a, an expert tells us. And we're influenced by that. [00:09:15] Craig Macmillan: That is interesting. It just made me think of diffusion of innovation, you know, where you have some folks that would be like, Oh, Marquette's delicious, fantastic, I want it. And then there's another population that's like, Well, let's, is it? If other people are indicating that it's good and that they like it, which is communicated through points in this case, then that opens the door. [00:09:35] And then maybe you get some more momentum after that, some more momentum after that, momentum after that, you know, and wine regions have kind of developed along that same. Principle, the sense of place piece is also kind of interesting because a lot of wineries, I think are really focused on conveying these wines are a sense of place. [00:09:52] And I was expecting that to be a real motivator because these are special places with special wines. But not necessarily. [00:10:02] Dan McCole: Well, yeah, you know, wine more than probably any other product at least beverage is, so tied to the terroir, right? If you're thinking about a wine in Michigan or Iowa or, Missouri and you know, a little bit something about wine, you'd say, Oh, those aren't really wine areas. Are they? [00:10:22] And you might be a little skeptical. Whereas, you know, if you're talking about, Oh, this wine is made in Italy or France or Chile or, California or, Australia, wherever people say, Oh, yeah, they make good wines there. Right? This tie to the terroir in the area is true. But think about like, yeah. craft beers. People don't really give it the same level of scrutiny where it's made from. If you go to you know, a place, I mean, we just don't have the connection, you know, Germany or Czech or, you know, places are known for certain kinds of beer, but you're not necessarily skeptical about a beer made in Iowa or Missouri or Michigan or, wherever. [00:10:58] Same thing with spirits. We've seen a lot of craft distilleries coming around , and people think that's cool, . But wine, they're still a little suspicious of really. Could we really have a good wine made in this location or that location? So that sense of place is interesting. So I think with the, experiments we did, it was really that the reason there was a little bit of an increase, I think, is just people for. Mostly environmental reasons but you know, some other reasons to support local business you know, latched on to that local message. And we're willing to pay a little bit more for that, but not a lot more. [00:11:30] Craig Macmillan: Right. And if I remember correctly the environmental aspects of this did play at least a little bit of a role [00:11:37] Dan McCole: that that's exactly right. That is something that wineries do communicate about the wines especially made with hybrid wine grapes. I mean, first of all, the, the term hybrid grape is something that the industry uses and people like you and I might use but the average consumer doesn't know what that means. [00:11:53] The average consumer doesn't know what Vitis vinifera is. They've maybe heard of grapes, but, you know, if you ask them if they've heard of Cabernet Sauvignon or Marquette, they might say, Oh, I've heard of Cabernet Sauvignon, and if they're from certain areas where Marquette is grown, they might say, Oh, yeah, I've heard of that too, to a lesser extent, but they're not gonna know that one's a hybrid grape and one's not. [00:12:13] And even if you were told, they wouldn't know what that means. Cabernet Sauvignon sounds like a hybrid. Between Cabernet and Sauvignon, right? So, like, they don't really make that distinction as much as the industry does. [00:12:25] Craig Macmillan: Are there other varieties in the upper Midwest that have the same kind of potential, do you think? [00:12:31] Dan McCole: There are several that people are interested. You mentioned Frontenac before. Frontenac's been around for a while and it's another one that makes a red wine. Petite Pearl is sort of another one that's a little newer than Marquette, which has some promise. [00:12:45] On the white you have which has also been around for a little bit and you know, Brianna and La Crescent and, and some of those essentially what they do is allow for this growth that we've seen in areas where it was previously not feasible to, produce wine. [00:13:02] People are ever going to get to the point where they prefer a Marquette over a Cabernet Sauvignon, I mean, some people do but in large numbers that could be a while. And it may never happen. To me, a lot of these wineries and these areas. They're, they're smaller wineries that sell most of what they produce out of their tasting room. [00:13:24] And that's a pretty good model for them because when you're producing such a small amount of wine, the production cost per bottle is pretty high, so just to break even you might need to, you know, sell it at 15, 16, 17 dollars a bottle. If you want a little bit of a margin, you're going for 25 dollars. [00:13:44] Now if you're in a wine shop And you have the choice between, a $25 bottle of Cabernet Sauvignon or, go with something else like a you know, a Pinot Noir or something, and a $25 bottle of Marquette. It's gonna be hard for that Marquette to compete. [00:14:03] Plus the winery's gonna have to pay the, middleman, the distributor and the retailer. They're cut too. Selling it out of the tasting room makes a lot of sense when it's that high. You don't have the competition, you don't have to give other people their cut. , [00:14:16] what we've found in these areas is that people aren't going to the wineries for wine. [00:14:23] Our research clearly shows this. They're going for a wine based experience or wine themed experience, when we ask people why they came to the winery, the reasons given were, for a relaxing day out to socialize with somebody else to bond with friends or loved one or you know, a group of women who are getting ready and part of a bachelorette party or something. [00:14:44] And, lower down the list is to learn more about wine and lower down is to acquire wine or build my cellar or things like that. They're not going there for that purpose. They're going for an experience. [00:14:54] Now, if the experience is good and the wine is good enough, they'll buy some of that wine, again, because the context of a purchase. Makes all the difference in the world. For years, we've known this about consumer behavior, that the situation in which somebody buys something makes all the difference in their behavior, whether they're going to buy it. And we know this in the wine industry, right? Think about how much you're willing to pay for a bottle of wine at a restaurant versus at a store. [00:15:24] Because the situation is different. And our right. Our willingness to pay goes up. Our willingness to buy one product over another changes. And by like the situation I'm talking the physical surroundings make a difference. The social surroundings, who you're with you know, at the time, the temporal perspective, meaning the urgency associated with it whether you have plenty of time to shop, whether you're in a hurry, What they call the task, which is like the reason for the purchase. [00:15:49] So are you buying it for a gift? Are you bringing it to somebody's house? Are you getting it as a souvenir? And then, and this is, I think most important is something called the antecedent States. And this is like the consumers. Mood at the, at the moment of purchase, it's emotional state. And this has changed by, you know, what has happened immediately before the purchase. [00:16:11] So if you're at a winery and you know, Iowa, Missouri, Michigan, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and. You're having a great time and you and I are there together. We're getting along real well, getting to know each other. We're having a wine. The wine's, you know, fine. It's pretty good. We talked to some other people. It's just been a great day out. The weather's been beautiful. There are beautiful views and we walked through the vineyard. We're in a good mood, and that's gonna change our purchase situation. All of those factors change the purchase situation. In some cases, the wine just has to be good enough. [00:16:44] Now, if the wine is terrible and it's really a burden to drink, we're probably not gonna buy that wine. [00:16:50] Craig Macmillan: A burden to drink. I love that. I've never heard that before. I'm going to use that in my real life. [00:16:56] Dan McCole: Have you, have you had many wines that have been a burden [00:16:59] Craig Macmillan: I I'm a judge for a home winemaking competition. So yes, many wines are a burden to drink. [00:17:05] Dan McCole: Yeah, okay. Yeah, I've had a few, but generally I've got a pretty open palate. [00:17:11] Craig Macmillan: I'm sorry. I interrupted [00:17:12] Dan McCole: if we, found these wines to be, you know, not great, then we're not going to buy them. You know, it's going to dampen our experience, if the, the wine grapes that you were asking about, if they're good enough, they're good enough. There's a market there for that. They don't need to be the next, you know, Chardonnay. [00:17:28] Craig Macmillan: Something else that you looked at that I found pretty fascinating was you look for commonalities or differences in wine consumers. I think it was in Michigan. You were connecting with people, I think at the winery And we're doing some survey work. And so I started some semi structured interview work. Is that right? [00:17:42] Dan McCole: Well, not necessarily. We have done some structured interviewing, but I think what you're talking about. So we had a program that we did for several years, both in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota, where we developed a system to be able to intercept people at the winery very quickly. We didn't want to disrupt their experience at the winery, just very quickly. [00:18:04] And we, we worked with wineries, they did these intercepts for us. Would you be interested in participating in a study that Michigan State's doing? If so, just give us your name and email and they will follow up with you within a week. So we got this, we worked with a number of wineries, so we, every week we would get, you know, a few hundred names and we would survey them. And we do this over, you know, a 16 week period every year. [00:18:25] Craig Macmillan: wow. [00:18:25] Dan McCole: We got in touch with a lot of people who had just taken a visit to the winery and we were able to ask a lot of different questions. One line of inquiry that we focused on was trying to get to know who are these consumers? [00:18:39] This is where we first learned that the consumers who go to a winery are different from wine consumers. They're a form of wine consumer, but they're not the same as what most of the information, the trade information available on wine consumers is because that those air mostly in a retail context. [00:18:58] That's where I told you earlier. We learned that, the visitors to wineries in these areas tended to be a little less wine knowledgeable, have a little less wine experience. Purchased a little less wine, you know, beforehand before, you know, coming to the winery and and there were also some differences state to state mostly that had to do with some spending, but some of that was explained geographically, how close the wineries were to major breweries. Population areas and things like that. [00:19:29] One interesting thing that we learned. So in, Michigan, I, I mentioned this earlier, quite a , a lot of the wineries are in areas where they will produce wines with vinifera, grapes that we've heard of before. You know, Cabernet Franc Riesling, Pinot Grigio, some Chardonnay, you know, etc. [00:19:48] And there are some wineries that that use cold, hearty grapes in Wisconsin and Minnesota. They pretty much all use these cold, hearty grapes. So we asked people, how familiar are you with cold, hearty grapes? And it was interesting in Michigan. They shared familiarity greater than the other two states. [00:20:05] But when we asked them if they'd heard of these specific grapes You know, Marquette Marichal Foch yeah, Frontenac, Gris, Frontenac Brianna, La Crescent. We made up a few names of grapes that don't exist. And in Michigan, they were just as likely to say they've heard of those made up grapes as the real grapes. [00:20:27] And in Wisconsin and Minnesota, however , they hadn't heard of those and they indicated that they've heard of the real grapes. And, and so what that told us was that if you, familiarize the consumer enough with these grapes, they'll get to know them and recognize them. And in Michigan they just hadn't because there aren't as many that use these cold hardy grapes. [00:20:47] Craig Macmillan: Oh, that's, that's really interesting. We're talking about cold hardy's equality. I've done been doing a lot of interviews with folks from places like Texas. And also the Pacific Northwest, which are both areas that are very vulnerable to climate change. And in the case of the Northwest, that still might be vinifera. But for instance, the Willamette Valley may have to rethink Pinot Noir if things continue to warm. In Texas, it's about heat, where they're having just terrible collapses of vines. And there are, you know, these heat tolerant varieties that nobody's heard of. If you were to be called in as an expert and flown to Texas, what kind of advice would you give to the extensionists at Texas A& M or to the wine marketing associations or anything like that? Based on what you've learned in the Midwest. [00:21:37] Dan McCole: I do work with some people from Texas A& M on different projects that we've been part of. So I'm a little bit familiar with their challenges, mostly they're viticulturalists they have unique challenges. The kind of things that, that I work with that really apply, even though most of my work has been done up here in the, upper Midwest and the great lakes area from the, small business perspective, they have the same challenges. [00:21:59] I would argue that in fact, I published a paper on, proposing that there are really four different kinds of wine regions. One is sort of the famous wine regions we know about. Those would be the Napa and the Sonoma or a Tuscany and other places like that Burgundy and France. They produce a lot of wine and they have good wine tourism 'cause people want to go to these regions. [00:22:22] Then we have regions that produce a lot of wine, but they don't necessarily have a whole lot of tourism. They don't rely too much on tourism. These are the bulk wine producing regions of the world. [00:22:33] Then you have lots of regions around the world. Especially you think of like Eastern Europe, they have a long tradition of winemaking, but it's really just for local consumption, right? And and so they, they sell it locally. They don't really rely on tourism. People aren't going to these regions. , you can think of Bulgaria and. You know, certain parts of Austria or, you know, wherever. [00:22:55] And then there's this newer fourth region. And these are wineries that don't have a long tradition of winemaking. These are like the wineries that have popped up all over the U. S. over the last 20 years, and they are entirely reliant on tourism. to sell their product because they're mostly selling out of the tasting room. And each one of these four regions has different business models. [00:23:16] If a winery is in an area that relies on tasting room sales, either entirely or largely and or is making wines with grapes that people are less familiar with then they have similar challenges regardless of where they're located or what those wines are called. [00:23:36] One of the things I would say is recognize that, people are there to buy an experience, not a product. And if they have a good experience, they'll buy the product. A lot of wineries I've worked with, they understand this, but they still consider themselves being in the, you know, primarily wineries and wine producers. [00:23:55] And, and they are, and you can understand why they are that way. Their consumer's primary, you know, the product they're seeking the most is not a actual tangible product. It is that experience. And so realizing that that that you are really in that experience industry just happens to be wine themed and you also produce wine and you're going to sell that wine to them that realizing why people are there and then that they're Behavior, the things that are going to change their behavior, get them to buy more wine, et cetera is going to be different from most of the information that's out there about consumers realizing that the wine consumer behavior that's out there and all the trade magazines Is mostly for people at retail and they are very different there. [00:24:40] They have a lot of commonalities And even if we're talking about the same people the situation is different and therefore their behavior is different So essentially they're a different kind of consumer, when they're there and then the last thing I would tell them is you know based on what I was telling you about the work we had done in minnesota and wisconsin is don't shy away from the name of the grape and, , just say that, and people don't care if it's hybrid or not, just push the name of that grape. So you get some recognition of it. And then people, especially if they're newer to , to wine, you know, they're gonna say, Oh, I really like this grape. I like wines are made with this grape. And, you know, they tell two friends and so on and so on. [00:25:20] Craig Macmillan: Interesting. I don't think I saw this in your writing, but obviously you have some experience with this. Are there particular things, elements that a winery that's selling this experience, types of experiences, types of things that a winery would have the most success with or things that you saw that had the most popularity or the most success? [00:25:43] Dan McCole: Yeah, we, we haven't done that work. We actually have a proposed in a grant that, hopefully will be funded coming forward. A colleague of mine at Cornell, Miguel Gomez, he did a couple interesting little experiments to, see what, generated more sales in, in one experiment, he found that essentially the, the more satisfied people were with their tasting room experience. The more wine they bought and the more money they spent on wine. So the more bottles, the more money they spent and the more bottles they purchased. And, and it was really clear. And if you could get somebody from being very satisfied to extremely satisfied, The amount of wine just jumped way up in the amount of spending. [00:26:29] So trying to get somebody extremely satisfied with their tasting room experience. So that begs the question, what leads to satisfaction experience. And what was interesting is it wasn't the quality of the wines. It was things like, crowding if it wasn't too crowded decoration, the atmosphere that was created, whether it was a nice place the service. The you know, the people serving. [00:26:54] I was at another conference where another colleague Zeta Vickers at University of Minnesota. She had done some experiments with tasting those. She was giving people wines to try and she would show them photos of people in different states of emotion. So some of them were really happy, some of them were angry, some of them were scared, some of them were sad, whatever. And she experimented with the same group of wines. And asked people to rate their level of satisfaction. And one of the things she learned was regardless of which wine followed, the wine after showing somebody who was happy, a picture of somebody who was happy, was always rated more higher than the other emotions. [00:27:34] And so the lesson that she gave from this and fits in with Miguel's work is if you're hiring somebody to work in your tasting room and you have a choice between two people, one of them is incredibly knowledgeable about wine knows everything there is to know, but isn't the most . necessarily friendly, outgoing person in the world and the other one doesn't know much about wine, but is very engaging and friendly and outgoing. Train that person about wine, hire them and train them about wine versus the wine person what Zeta said, if people are in a good mood or they see somebody in a good mood, they're more likely to be satisfied with the wine. [00:28:08] And if they're more satisfied with the wine and more satisfied with their experience, then they're, going to buy more wine. [00:28:13] Craig Macmillan: Variable I wonder about is music. [00:28:16] Dan McCole: Yeah, [00:28:17] Craig Macmillan: I'm really curious about what impact that might have. And it gets to this emotional response piece, where if people are having a good time, you see people smiling, the staff are very friendly and smiling, that encourages you to Enjoy the experience be satisfied the experience then purchase product as a result [00:28:34] Dan McCole: I would agree with that 100%. And I think that's part of being very satisfied or extremely satisfied with the tasting room experience. If there's either good live music or it doesn't even have to be that there's a, there's a little winery up here in Michigan that, in the middle of their tasting room, they have this, sort of classic Harley. [00:28:52] And the music in there is always like classic rock, and it's turned up a little bit higher than you would normally expect. And they have a great view and it's a really beautiful winery and it's looking over Lake Michigan, it's really lovely you can't go there and not have a good time, you know, it's just a lot of fun. [00:29:08] Craig Macmillan: yeah, that's interesting if there's one thing you were gonna tell folks regardless of where they were on this topic Making the sale of an unknown wine variety. What would it be? Just one idea one thing [00:29:22] Dan McCole: Well, based on the research what we told people about the awards that were won, if your wine has won awards showcase them. Let people know that that they've won awards that that really does seem to make a difference. So to the point where once we, when we had our findings, we were reporting them at a conference of winemakers and, and somebody said, I'm really glad you said that because we did win awards, but we'd already had our bottles labeled. [00:29:46] And so we were, printing off different stickers that we're applying by hand, bottle by bottle. And we were going to give up doing that, but maybe we should continue. And I said, yeah, I mean, that was the thing more than anything else. You communicate to people about the wines is that they'd won awards. [00:30:01] Because if you're talking about people who everybody feels a little inferior, not everybody. We, we all know some people who are very. You know, feel like they know everything there is to know about wine, but a lot of us are, are a little inferior about whether we know as much as we should about wine to have experts sort of say that, you know, wine more than, more than a lot of things makes a big difference. [00:30:23] And so awards are, are one of those things and enter those competitions. And, and if you win them make sure you communicate that to your consumers. [00:30:30] Craig Macmillan: That's fascinating. Where can people find out more about you? [00:30:33] Dan McCole: Well, they can go onto the, website or, or look me up, Dan McCole. You'll find some of the writings I've had on Google and there are two Dan McCalls out there. One's my dad, he's an artist in Boston. And then may just don't go for the watercolors, go for the stuff about wine. [00:30:47] Craig Macmillan: And yeah, in the show notes, there'll be links to a number of your publications, which I found fascinating. And I think other people will too. Thank you so much. Our guest today has been Dan McCole. He's associate professor in the department of community sustainability at Michigan state university. Dan, thanks for being here. This has been a really interesting conversation. [00:31:05] Dan McCole: Thanks a lot, Craig. I enjoyed talking to you. [00:31:06] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Dan, a number of his articles on market research, plus Sustainable Wine Growing Podcast episodes, 222, How Sustainability Sells in a Tough Market, and 246, Three Ways to Make Your Tasting an Experience. If you liked the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing, and leaving us a review. [00:31:34] You can find all of the podcasts at vineyardteam. org slash podcast. And you can reach us at podcast at vineyardteam. org until next time. This is sustainable wine growing with the vineyard team.   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: It's one thing to be able to say that your grapes are grown sustainably, but to be able to explain to someone what that really means is a different story. [00:00:09] Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with Sip Certified. We know that customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, These twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable wine growing. [00:00:30] When it comes to telling your sustainable story, there's an easy framework that can help you. The seven values of SIP certified, which include social responsibility, water management, safe pest management, energy efficiency, habitat, business, and always evolving. [00:00:47] You can use these seven values to talk about the real ways your brand practices sustainability at every level of your business. [00:00:55] Dozens of SIP certified brands have already used this framework. In this week's marketing tip, we share the 2024 sustainable stories and invite you to be featured next year. [00:01:06] Our first value is social responsibility. Oso Libre's Por Vida Foundation supports four causes that are near and dear to the owner's hearts. Veteran services, women's cancer research, animal support groups, and children and family support groups. In fact, this year, they donated funding raised from their July Angus event to the Vineyard Team's Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship, helps children of vineyard and wine industry workers pay for a higher education. By supporting Oso Libre, guests and customers give back, too. [00:01:39] The second value is water management. At the heart of Bien Nacido Vineyard's sustainable farming ethos lies a diligent approach to water management. Their team of experienced irrigators tailor their irrigation practices to fit the land's needs by using weather data and plant and soil moisture data. [00:01:57] Our third value is safe pest management. Presqu'ile Vineyard knew they could protect their vines from birds in a way that was more sustainable than non biodegradable labor intensive bird netting. [00:02:08] Installing programmable bird lasers has protected their vineyards from feathered pests on top of having several other sustainable benefits. [00:02:17] The fourth value is energy efficiency. From a hillside nestled production facility that utilizes gravity flow to solar panels that provide the majority of the energy needs for their building and EV charging stations for customers, Niner Wine Estates reaches a high bar for energy efficiency. [00:02:36] The fifth value is habitat. The team at Ancient Peaks Winery and Margarita Adventures is dedicated to protecting the habitats of the various species of wildlife that inhabit the land and water on their property. If you want to learn more about the native life at the ranch, you can take one of several tours with naturalist Jacqueline, including nature photography, foraging, and my favorite, ziplining. [00:03:00] The sixth value is business. As a business rooted in female leadership, Cambria Estate Winery shows their dedication to uplifting and empowering women in an incredibly impactful way. Every March for Women's History Month, Cambria selects an organization that aligns with their pillars of climate action and women's leadership and pledges $25,000 to support their efforts. [00:03:26] And the seventh value is always evolving. Tolosa's Three P's Groups welcomes everyone on their team to participate in the business's value of always evolving. Employees get involved in a group, either people, planet, or prosperity, and work together to find ways to analyze and improve the business's sustainable practices. [00:03:46] If you want to read any of these incredible stories in more detail, make sure that you go to the show notes and click on the link, how these brands grow grapes sustainably. [00:03:57] If you're a SIP certified brand and want to share your sustainable story, let us know. Simply email Whitney at vineyard team. org with the value you want to share and how you fulfill that value. She will help you write your story. And we'll share it in a future marketing tips newsletter and podcast. [00:04:14] Until next time, this is sustainable wine growing with the vineyard team. Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Apply for SIP Certified Wine How These Brands Grow Grapes Sustainably Marketing Tips eNewsletter Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet  Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member

What causes the “red wine headache”? Is it sulfites? A histamine reaction? Andrew Waterhouse, Professor Emeritus of Enology in the Department of Viticulture and Enology at UC Davis and Apramita Devi, Postdoctoral Scholar in the Department of Viticulture and Enology at UC Davis have identified a flavanol that can interfere with the metabolism of alcohol. That flavanol is quercetin, a natural product made in grape skins in response to sunlight. It is a natural sunscreen produced to protect the fruit from ultraviolet light. This conversation covers why quercetin may be more prevalent in high end wines, how skin contact during wine production impacts quercetin levels, and why sulfites may play a role in “red wine headache”. Resources:         74: The Spirit of Wine Andrew Waterhouse Andrew Waterhouse | Google Scholar Andrew Waterhouse | LinkedIn Apramita Devi | LinkedIn Apramita Devi |Google Scholar Inhibition of ALDH2 by quercetin glucuronide suggests a new hypothesis to explain red wine headaches Why Do Some People Get Headaches From Drinking Red Wine?  Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: What causes. The red wine headache? Is it sulfites or a histamine reaction? [00:00:10] Welcome to sustainable wine growing with the vineyard team. Where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic executive director. I've been your team. Since 1994, we've brought you the latest science-based practices, experts growers and wine industry tools through both infield and online education. So that you can grow your business. Please raise a glass. With us as we cheers to 30 years. [00:00:37] In today's podcast, Craig Macmillan, critical resource. Manager at Niner wine estates with long time sip certified. Vineyard and the first ever sip certified winery. Speaks with two university of California Davis researchers. Andrew Waterhouse. Professor emeritus of enology and the department. of, viticulture and enology. And. Oprah meta Debbie. Post-doctoral scholar and the department of viticulture and enology. [00:01:04] They have identified a flavonol that can interfere. With the metabolism of alcohol. And that flavonol is called quercetin. A natural product made in the grape skins in response. To sunlight. It's a natural sunscreen produced to protect. The fruit from ultraviolet light. This conversation covers. Why quercetin may be more prevalent in high end wines. How. Skin contact during wine production impacts quercetin levels. And why sulfites may still play a role in that red wine headache. [00:01:36] Want to be more connected with the viticulture industry. But don't know where to start become a vineyard team member. Get access. to the latest science-based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry. The tools. Through both infield and online education so that you. You can grow your business. Visit vineyard team.org. And choose grower or business to join the community today. [00:01:57] Now let's listen. in. [00:02:01] Craig Macmillan: Our guests today are Andrew Waterhouse, Professor Emeritus in Enology in the Department of Viticulture Davis, and also Aparmita Devi. She is a postdoctoral scholar, also in the Department of Viticulture & Enology Davis. Thank you both for being here. [00:02:17] Andrew Waterhouse: Oh, we're glad to be here. [00:02:19] Craig Macmillan: Today we're going to talk about a really interesting topic. It's the role of quercetin , in wine headaches. The two of you recently co authored a paper on this one particular mechanism that might cause some people to get a headache after drinking even a small amount of red wine. But before we get into that, I want to ask you, how did you get interested in this topic? [00:02:37] Andrew Waterhouse: Well I've been talking to Steve Mathiasson. He's a Napa winemaker for actually quite a while, some years back. He suffers from headaches when he drinks certain wines. And we were chatting about possible mechanisms, and we even did a study many years ago with another postdoc in my lab to investigate a question we had or a theory we had, and that didn't pan out. But more recently we were chatting again, and I got interested in the topic again, and that's what got me interested, you know, just somebody knowledgeable who was suffering from headaches and. for listening. It was, it makes it more real and it's like, well, maybe we can figure something out. So that's what got us started. [00:03:17] Craig Macmillan: Apramita , how same for you. [00:03:19] Apramita Devi: Yeah. Same. Like I've been in touch with Andy and we have been talking about this project many years. So I was always interested because I come from biological science and metabolism and stuff I got interested after talking to Andy. [00:03:33] Craig Macmillan: Well, let's start with some basics. What is quercetin? [00:03:38] Andrew Waterhouse: Well, basically, it's a natural product made by grapes, but it's a very specific one. It's in the class of polyphenolic compounds, and it's in the class of flavonoids called flavonols. And what makes it interesting, I think, is that it is made By grapes, in the skin of the grape, and only in the skin of the grape, in response to sunlight. It's sometimes referred to as sunscreen for grapes. And it specifically absorbs UV light that would cause damage to, say, DNA and other macromolecules. So it's very clear that the grapes are producing this in order to protect themselves from ultraviolet light. [00:04:22] Craig Macmillan: Right. [00:04:22] Andrew Waterhouse: So the amount that's present in wine is highly dependent on the amount of sunlight the grapes experience. Not the vine, but the grapes themselves, And a friend of mine, Steve Price, was the first to note this. In a study way back in the 90s on Pinot Noir, he noted that there was more quercetin in sun exposed Pinot Noir grapes. And that observation has been confirmed many times now in different studies. where sun exposure is correlated with quercetin levels. [00:04:58] Craig Macmillan: and this is true just for red grapes as opposed to white grapes. [00:05:02] Andrew Waterhouse: Oh, no, no, there's more in white grapes. But when you make white wine, you throw away the skins. So there's no opportunity to get those materials into the wine. Now, an exception might be orange wine. But I don't know of any data on orange wine. [00:05:21] Craig Macmillan: Apramita , maybe you can talk about the metabolism part, the biology part. So when people consume alcohol, it's metabolized down certain pathways. Quercetin is also metabolized by the body into other forms? [00:05:33] Apramita Devi: Yeah, so the pathway for alcohol and quercetin are a bit different, but the location is liver, where it goes. So when people consume alcohol, it goes to the liver and then there are two enzymes which work on the alcohol. So the first enzyme is alcohol dehydrogenase, which convert it into alcohol into acetaldehyde. The acetaldehyde is the like the toxic metabolite in the body and it can have many side effects. That's why body has to get rid of it out of the liver system. So it has a second enzyme which is called the acetaldehyde dehydrogenase. So that convert acetaldehyde dehydrogenase into a non toxic component, which is acetate or acetic system. [00:06:24] So it comes out of the body. What happens when you consume quercetin along in the body, the quercetin also goes to the liver. Because quercetin adds too much quercetin as such is not good for the body and it has low bioavailability. So liver tag it in the form of quercetin glucuronide and then the body knows that it has to be flushed out of the system. So the interesting part is that when you consume alcohol and quercetin together, You are taking the both the metabolite acetaldehyde and quercetin gluconide in the same location inside the liver. And it gives the quercetin gluconide to interact with the acetaldehyde dehydrogenase enzyme. And that acetaldehyde dehydrogenase enzyme now cannot work efficiently. to convert the acetaldehyde into the acetate. So basically you are building up acetaldehyde in the body and it's not coming out of the system and you are seeing all those negative effects of the acetaldehyde in the form of flushing or headache or not. The other systems like what's like sweating. so we think that there is a correlation between these two pathways, which might be associated in red wine system. [00:07:47] Craig Macmillan: And how did you design your study? [00:07:51] Apramita Devi: The first when I talked to Andy, like he told me that he thinks that this system is because of inflammatory pathways and inflammation system. So he was kind of like, there is something in red wine, which is Triggering this kind of pathways or there is some system so, but we were not sure what exactly are those inflammatory system. [00:08:16] So we went back and saw some literature and we kind of find that there are some studies which told that quercitans inhibit the dehydrogenase enzymes and that what triggered us that okay alcohol is metabolized by these dehydrogenase enzymes. And wine also has these phenolics. So what kind of phenolics, other kinds of phenolics, or what types of phenolics can do this inhibition? [00:08:45] The method was basically in, was based on having different phenolics, which are present in red wines more compared to white wines, select them. And then just, we find this enzyme kits in the market to do this dehydrogenase. Inhibition tests like you put the test compound and it tells whether the enzyme is the inhibited or not. [00:09:09] So we just did that in a test tube system, like we added our phenolics with the enzyme, and we saw that which kind of phenolics are inhibiting this enzyme and screening them out. out of all. So while doing that, we screened different types of quercetin, like quercetin glucoside, quercetin galactosides, and other forms. [00:09:32] Then we also tested other phenolics. I can for all my rest in and other stuff. And we also choose quercetin gluconide because that is the metabolite which is circulating in the body. And then we kind of screen them based on the in the enzyme system and we see how much inhibition is happening there. [00:09:54] Andrew Waterhouse: Yeah. So what we did was a very basic test to experiment. We didn't test anything on people. [00:10:01] We basically tested to see which of these compounds could inhibit that enzyme because we knew that if that an enzyme could be inhibited the acetaldehyde would accumulate and you'd end up with people in that condition would end up with Flushing, headaches, as Aparmita said, all kinds of other symptoms. [00:10:20] Craig Macmillan: And this would vary by person. Different people may have a proclivity to produce more of certain enzymes than others. Is that true? [00:10:29] Andrew Waterhouse: We don't really have any information about that. That's going to take a lot of more work to test you know, the, the details here. For instance. Some people get red wine headaches and some don't, but we don't know whether, for instance, perhaps their enzymes are more inhibited by quercetin glucuronide, or maybe they're just more sensitive to acetaldehyde. [00:10:52] So that's going to take, you know, human studies where we measure a bunch of things. And try to figure out, try to sort through the, the details of how this impacts people individually. [00:11:04] Craig Macmillan: What would a study , with people, investigating this, what would the design be like? How would somebody go about doing that? [00:11:12] Andrew Waterhouse: Okay. So a human study. Could have a couple different possible designs. The one we'll probably use is we'll simply find two wines, two red wines, one that's low in quercetin and one that's high. And then those will be administered to people who get red wine headaches. We'll give it to them blind, they'll have to agree of course to participate in the study. [00:11:37] And then we'll see if their experience of headaches is related to the quantity of quercetin. Now, there's some other designs we could imagine using, which might be a little more straightforward, but we're not sure how relevant they would be or whether we could get approval to do this. So, for instance, one approach would be to find a red wine that's low in quercetin and then simply add it. [00:12:00] Now adding it is tricky for a number of technical reasons. Quercetin itself is very insoluble, so we would have to add what's called a glycoside of quercetin. So we'd have to get our hands on something that would dissolve, et cetera, et cetera. We're not sure we could get approval for that because we're adding a chemical to wine. [00:12:21] Now, the chemical would probably be classified as a supplement, and so it might be approvable, as it were. And then another very simple experiment, which we thought about a while ago, you can buy quercetin as a supplement in the market. It's readily available. [00:12:38] So, one possibility is to simply give our subjects a glass of vodka and give them pills that either contain quercetin or a placebo and see if there's a relationship between administration of quercetin and headaches. [00:12:54] Now the, the quercetin itself, as I mentioned, is very insoluble. So we may have to get these more bioavailable forms of quercetin for that experiment. [00:13:04] Craig Macmillan: That leads to a wine making question. So, if it's relatively insoluble is quercetin extracted from skins more in the alcohol phase at the end of fermentation? [00:13:11] Andrew Waterhouse: Yeah. It's, it's, it's extracted fairly quickly because it's in the skin, in the grapes, it's in the form of what are called glycosides. So these, Has the quercetin molecule with the sugar attached. That makes all those forms very soluble. [00:13:27] Craig Macmillan: Oh, okay. Okay. [00:13:29] Andrew Waterhouse: There's actually an occasional problem with certain red wines, most commonly Sangiovese, where after bottling the wine has had a large quantity of quercetin glucosides. And after bottling, they break down, the glycosides break down, releasing just a simple a glycone, quercetin, and you get this disgusting looking gooey brown precipitate in the bottle. [00:13:56] Craig Macmillan: ha [00:13:57] Andrew Waterhouse: Every few years I know the folks at ETS in Napa get somebody showing up with a bottle of Sangiovese that's got this. Disgusting sludge in it, and they can tell them without analyzing that. Yes, another case, of course, it's in precipitate in the bottom. [00:14:15] Craig Macmillan: Huh, that's interesting. I believe it was mentioned in the paper that , obviously different growing conditions are going to lead to different levels of quercetin and grapes based on how much sun exposure they have, etc. And that also different winemaking techniques would have an impact. [00:14:29] If consumers are looking for products if they know they have a headache issue Is it possible they could experiment with different product types? Products that were made with different production methods if they can find that out that might Impact their sensitivity or might impact how often it happens [00:14:46] Andrew Waterhouse: Yeah, it's a pity that. Consumers wouldn't have information on the level of quercetin. We would very much like to do a study along those lines, but we haven't been able to find any funding for that, just in case somebody wants to support that kind of work, we're happy to work with them. but anyway you know, it hasn't really been an issue for winemakers, so there isn't a lot of data out there. [00:15:08] There are a few studies that published amounts of quercetin, you know, in wines from different places, but the data is very, very limited and not really useful in providing consumers guidance. The one thing we can say is because, as I mentioned earlier, sun exposure is very important, in general if you look at a particular type of wine, a varietal, say Cabernet or Pinot Noir, that the grapes that are grown on very large vines, will have less sun exposure. [00:15:39] Essentially if you have a very highly productive vineyard making targeting an inexpensive line, you probably have much more shading of the fruit as a consequence of lower quercetin levels. Compared to a very high end vineyard, usually, the amount of sunlight is very tightly controlled, and one of the reasons for that is that there's very good data showing that wines that are high in quercetin have a better mouthfeel, better texture in the mouth. And it's not clear whether quercetin is directly responsible or whether it's a marker for something else that's produced under those conditions that leads to that. many years ago, we did a study looking at phenolics in Cabernet, and we observed that the very high end Cabernets that we tested were much higher in quercetin than the sort of average price type product. [00:16:35] And I think that that was true then. It's probably true now that, you know, a very good cabernet is, is made with very tight control of sun exposure. And there is a fair amount, of course, it can't be a complete sun exposure, or they probably get raisins by the end of the harvest, by the time you get to harvest, but there's a very deliberate management of sun exposure in high end wines. And it's for a reason to, get to higher quality product. [00:17:04] Craig Macmillan: Right, exactly! And, We know that the managed sun exposure, quercetin is a part of it but also it's connected to just total phenolics in general. Lots and lots of different compounds that are, you know, semi related. And I actually wanted to go back Aprametia you identified the quercetin glucuronide as being The highest in the ones that you tested, were there other things in that test and that assay that all were also stood out, maybe not as high as that, but really kind of stuck out as being different than the rest. [00:17:39] Apramita Devi: Actually, the quercetin gluconide was a standalone as a very high, like it's like 78%. The other things were around in that 30 percent range, so I'm not sure how significant was the impact of that, but there were quercetin glycosides forms, which were like around 30 percent inhibition of the enzyme, but [00:18:03] all others were very low. [00:18:04] Craig Macmillan: yeah, so it really stood out basically as it was head and shoulders above it. I would like to put this work into context a little bit. I, I work with the public quite a bit as part of my job and I have for years. And this topic comes up. All the time. This information definitely helps me my goal, when I talk to a consumer that has an issue with, wine headache or whatever it's not that I'm trying to sell them a product as much as it is. [00:18:29] They want to enjoy wine. They tell me this, they say, Oh, I love to have it. I just can't. Da da da. And then they'll say, it's like sulfites. And then I'll kind of explore that with them a little bit. Like, so can you eat dried fruit? Do you eat canned fruit? Do you have reactions to this or to that? Are you asthmatic? [00:18:48] Kind of sort that out and go, okay, I don't think maybe that's it. Maybe it's not. The other ones that I just learned about about 10 years ago was a biogenic amines, which made a lot of sense to me in terms of things like histamine reactions. What is your feeling about sulfites is contributing biogenic amines. [00:19:04] Maybe there's other things we haven't hit on, on this topic. What are your feelings about the, kind of the big picture of what potential for a diagnosing assist? [00:19:15] Andrew Waterhouse: Why don't you talk about amines [00:19:16] Craig Macmillan: Yes, please, [00:19:18] Apramita Devi: Biogenic amines like mostly the histamine and tyramine are the main ones people talk about whenever they come with this headache stuff. So I think because it's formed in the wine during the fermentation process, and there are these spec microbes which can convert the amino acids into this, biogenic amines the histamines are part of inflammatory reactions. People know that in biology and immunology. So it's very easy to be people connected that it might be a reason why people get headache. But what I always focus is like, there are far more other food products, for example, fermented meat products, which has far more higher amount of these biogenic amines. do people get headache if they have something similar with alcohol eating together with alcohol or something like that? But there is no mechanism told till now, they just tell that, oh, since it's histamine and it's related to this inflammatory reactions, it might be the cause. But there is no solid proof that it is the cause. [00:20:27] so I don't know whether it's there or it might be a pathway or not. [00:20:33] Craig Macmillan: One of the things that I find fascinating is how we evolve our, Hypotheses about things over time, and somebody has an hypothesis and they test it out, maybe they find something, maybe they don't, but then that kicks off this whole set of what I call naive science making up stories about why. [00:20:53] It's kind of a just so story. It's like, well, obviously then somebody comes along and checks it and says, Hey, wait a second. And we're no, or if this was true, then that would have to be true. And that's not true. You know, and that kind of thing and how we keep coming around to new ideas, which is what you folks have done, which I think is really, really cool. [00:21:10] Andrew Waterhouse: I was going to answer your question about sulfites. It's a really big question actually. Partly because sulfites have so much visibility and there's so much concern about it. I think sulfites themselves Have been studied pretty carefully there's one study where if they gave subjects a very high level of sulfites in wine, it was like very small, but statistically significant increase in headaches. [00:21:39] Or some adverse reaction, but other studies have shown no correlation. By the way, sulfites are antioxidants in case you hadn't heard that. So it seems very unlikely that sulfites by themselves are some sort of bad actor in this regard. Like you, I get these questions all the time. And what I heard so many times was. Oh, it's cheap wine. It gives me a headache. [00:22:06] Craig Macmillan: Yes. [00:22:07] Andrew Waterhouse: And have you heard [00:22:08] Craig Macmillan: I've heard that many times. And then on the opposite side of things, I've heard stuff like, Oh, I get headaches from American wine, but I don't get it from French wine. Or I always get headaches from European wines, but I never from California wine. So I'm trying to figure out, is there something going on? [00:22:26] Like, can you be allergic to burgundy? You know what I'm saying? Cause I mean, it could be, it could be something about burgundy. It's just stuff going on. And then the opposite. I had a guy who says, no, I don't have any that. But he says I was traveling in France, and we were drinking wine like it was water, and I never had a hangover symptom, and I did it, and I was like, I don't know dude, like I [00:22:45] Andrew Waterhouse: Yeah. Well, there's, there's one answer to some of this, which is if you're on vacation and you don't have to get up early and you're relaxed and you probably don't get as many headaches. [00:22:58] Craig Macmillan: Right. [00:22:59] Andrew Waterhouse: So I think that's a large part of it, especially for Americans visiting Europe. They're on vacation. but I think there is something to the sulfites question. And that is that inexpensive wine often, not always, but often has more bound sulfites. [00:23:18] Craig Macmillan: Yep. [00:23:19] Andrew Waterhouse: And this is probably because those grapes have a little bit more mold on them or a lot more mold. And when they get to the crusher, the winemaker goes, Oh, there's mold on these fruits. So we're going to add sulfites to, to take care of the botrytis, right? [00:23:34] We don't want the fruit to get oxidized and damaged. They had a bunch of sulfites. The consequence of that is that in the finished line, There's a lot more. Bound to SO2, which shows up in the total SO2 number. [00:23:47] You know what it's bound to? [00:23:49] Craig Macmillan: No. [00:23:49] Andrew Waterhouse: It's bound to largely acid aldehyde. [00:23:52] Craig Macmillan: Really? [00:23:53] Oh! Well that would make sense. Yeah, that would make sense. [00:23:56] Andrew Waterhouse: And the, the reason for that is that during the fermentation, the yeast are converting all this sugar the alcohol, but there's an intermediate step which is acetaldehyde. [00:24:06] Craig Macmillan: Right. [00:24:07] Andrew Waterhouse: If you have SO2 floating around, as you would if you'd added a lot of it up front, it binds that acetaldehyde before it gets reduced to ethanol, to alcohol. if you start a fermentation with a high level of added SO2, then you will end up with a wine that has more bound acetaldehyde. And that could be a marker, say, of less expensive wine. [00:24:31] So it's possible that those people are, what they're experiencing is direct ingestion of acetaldehyde, which is being released into the blood and that that's causing them a problem. [00:24:45] Now, I've looked and looked, and I cannot find any data on what's called absorption of acetaldehyde from wine, or from food for that matter. I keep, I'm going to keep looking, [00:24:56] but for some reason or other, this hasn't been subject of a published study, although maybe I just haven't been competent enough to find it. [00:25:05] Craig Macmillan: I doubt that. [00:25:07] Andrew Waterhouse: Well, sometimes these are, you know, they're very specialized and they're indexed in funny ways. And, [00:25:13] You know, and the other thing was, you know, when the study came out, I had all these questions. I was talking to this one reporter and she said, well, I can drink natural wine. [00:25:24] It doesn't give me headaches. And I was like, oh boy, what's this about? [00:25:27] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. [00:25:28] Andrew Waterhouse: But thinking about that further when you make natural wine, you don't add any sulfites or at least you're not supposed to, Right. And consequently in the finished wine, the level of acetaldehyde would have to be very low or else it would smell like sherry. [00:25:41] Craig Macmillan: Right. Right. [00:25:43] Andrew Waterhouse: And yes, granted, many natural wines have funky smells, but they don't by and large smell like sherry. [00:25:49] So it's possible that natural wines have in general, Much less acid aldehyde than conventional one. you know, all these questions have brought up some interesting issues, I think, you know, the industry should be looking into you know, these are these issues like how much acid aldehyde Do we want in our wine and how can we reduce it if we want to reduce it? [00:26:15] I don't think anybody's really looking at that yet. I think that would be a very interesting question to pursue. Oh [00:26:24] Craig Macmillan: you just, you just reminded me of, of something two things that I, I had forgotten about. One I used to teach like enology for babies, enology for dummies thing for the public. I am in no way qualified other than just experience to do that. [00:26:39] But I broke it down in that I do that sugar aldehyde, alcohol arrows, and I'd say, okay, this, this acid aldehyde. Remember this one? This one's coming back. We're going to see this again later. So write this one down. We're going to get to that later. And sure enough, now it's just through the body and, and I think breathalyzers work based on that. [00:27:00] Don't they? It's like density. Something like that. So the aldehyde, they're actually, [00:27:05] I think so. I got to look that up again, but because by the time it gets to your breath, your body's, Processing it, right? Hugely important. Not just that compound, but aldehyde is just kind of a general well, maybe we should all invest in like some kind of, I don't know, AO unit or wine X ray or something at our house. [00:27:21] And then we could get the totals and know before we drink it you know, maybe we could figure out if somebody could come up with a consumer friendly, you know, put it in a vial and shake it and it turns blue. Don't drink it kind of thing. I'm just being silly. I don't know. [00:27:34] Andrew Waterhouse: idea. [00:27:35] Craig Macmillan: You go to different like wine shops and stuff, and there's all kinds of stirs and additives and strainers and funnels and stuff that are supposed to take things out. [00:27:45] And I've always really wanted to see what those things do. They do anything or not, or I don't know. I'd like to try it. Finally, is there one takeaway on this topic, this question to both you, one takeaway you'd like people to know, I [00:27:57] Andrew Waterhouse: well, I think the key thing is that we haven't done any experiments on people yet. [00:28:03] Craig Macmillan: Right. [00:28:04] Andrew Waterhouse: And so what we have here is, I would call it a well founded theory, [00:28:09] Craig Macmillan: Mhmm. [00:28:09] Andrew Waterhouse: I think people shouldn't rush out and start changing the way they drink yet. They might want to try some experiments. But we don't have the final word yet. [00:28:20] Craig Macmillan: Right, right. [00:28:24] Apramita Devi: Same. Yeah. This is just very preliminary study. And we just have a theory out. So we still don't know, like, what happens in the actual body. [00:28:34] Craig Macmillan: Well, I hope that we can do that. [00:28:36] Andrew Waterhouse: We're always looking for support for experiments. If anybody wants to support that, get in touch. [00:28:43] Craig Macmillan: You know, another creative thought that I have when I'm preparing for this is like, you know, , people either get headaches from wine or they don't. If I'm someone who wants to enjoy wine, but gets headaches, I would be really attracted to a product that had a back label if we could make health. statements, which we cannot, that would say now low in quercetin or, you know, headache free, you know, no, we would never get that through TTP, obviously, but but, but, you know, but we went round and round with that on sulfites, you know you know, organic waste, no added sulfites, you know, you can say that. [00:29:14] Andrew Waterhouse: I think it would be possible to perhaps have a declaration on a bottle about the level of quercetin, whether it's high or low. I suppose. I don't know. [00:29:24] One company did get a label through that had resveratrol levels on it, but then TTB stopped approving that. So only one company has that approval. But I think in that case the reason for denying the label is that it is a proxy for health claim. Thank you. [00:29:44] Quercetin, you know, whether it's high or low is really, it's not, it's not making a health claim. We're not claiming that this wine is healthier for you than the other has to do with headaches or not headaches. [00:29:55] And I don't see that as really a health claim. [00:29:58] Craig Macmillan: Well, let's just see how this develops. You never know. Let's face it. I mean, we're talking about nutrition. This is August of 2024, the date for this recording. We're talking about having nutritional labeling on wine. Right? Which I think would be a very interesting nutritional label, quite frankly. [00:30:13] I would, I would love to see that, you know. Zero percent of the RDA of everything, again, at the end of one of my lectures I'd introduce potassium, and at the end I'd say, so how much wine do you have to drink to get your RDA of potassium? You have to drink a gallon and a half of wine a day. So, maybe not a big contributor. Maybe not a big contributor. Where can people find out more about both of you? [00:30:37] Andrew Waterhouse: Well, I think probably the best starting point would be our LinkedIn pages. [00:30:43] Craig Macmillan: And those will be in the show notes. [00:30:45] Andrew Waterhouse: and I do have a website at UC Davis called waterhouse. ucdavis. edu. [00:30:52] Craig Macmillan: And that will be in there as well. What about you, Apremita? [00:30:54] Apramita Devi: For me, LinkedIn page. [00:30:58] And if people want to see about my research or my past research, they can go to my Google Scholar page to [00:31:05] Craig Macmillan: Awesome. Thank you. Well, thanks so much for being here. Our guests today were Andrew Waterhouse, Professor Emeritus in the Department of Viticulture and Enology at UC Davis, and Apramita Devi, a postdoctoral researcher in viticulture and knowledge at UC Davis. Really interesting work. [00:31:21] I'm glad that you folks are doing it. I've been a big fan of you, Dr. Waterhouse, for a long time, and now that I've seen your work, I'm a big fan of you. Apremita. You've done some pretty cool stuff in the last five years. So again, thanks. And thank you for listening to Sustainable Wine Growing with Vineyard team. [00:31:38] Please keep downloading episodes. Please visit the show page. Lots of information there. And we also have a new publication, Understanding Wine Chemistry by Andrew Waterhouse, Gavin Sachs, and David Jeffrey. Is that correct? [00:31:53] Andrew Waterhouse: That's correct. [00:31:55] Craig Macmillan: This is out in the world now. [00:31:57] Andrew Waterhouse: It's just out this month. [00:31:59] Craig Macmillan: That sounds like a must have. [00:32:01] Andrew Waterhouse: I agree. [00:32:03] Craig Macmillan: That sounds like a must have. , I will leave the name out, but there was a very famous book written by a group of folks from CSU Fresno and some collaborators. And I don't have a copy because I bought five copies in my cellar. People stole them every single time. So, this is the same kind of book, folks. [00:32:20] Maybe buy five copies. And just hand them out to give one to your assistant winemaker. Give one to your cellar master and just say, here, these are yours. I'm keeping my copy. Thank you very much. That's, that's really cool. And again, thanks for being on the podcast. [00:32:33] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening today's podcast was brought to you by wonderful laboratories. Wonderful laboratories operates two state of the art high throughput laboratories. He's located in Shaffer, California to support pathogen detection and nutrient analysis. The team provides full service support to customers with field sampling. Custom panels and special projects. They're. Customers include pest control advisors, growers, consultants, seed. Companies, backyard gardeners, ranchers, and more. [00:33:10] Make sure you check out the show notes. To learn more about. Andrew. And Oprah meta. To read a great article about their research. Why do some people get headaches from drinking red wine? [00:33:19] And if you're looking. Looking for. Some more fun wine at trivia to share at holiday parties this season. Listen into sustainable Winegrowing podcast episode. 74, the spirit of wine. [00:33:31] If you liked the show, do. It's a big favor by sharing it with a friend subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts@vineyardteam.org slash podcast. Podcast. And you can reach us at podcast@vineyardteam.org until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team. [00:33:49]   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

Want to practice regenerative agriculture? Daniel Rath, Agricultural Soil Carbon Scientist at Natural Resources Defense Council recommends that you start by asking what you want to regenerate. Beneficial practices including integrating livestock, crop rotations, cover cropping, minimizing tillage, increasing diversity, improving soil health, adding organic matter, and reducing external inputs will vary site to site. A long-term study found that these practices improved above and below ground biodiversity, increased water storage and infiltration, bolstered resilience to climate change, increased carbon and organic matter storage, and, impressively improved human health. Listen to the end to learn how soil metagenomics has the potential to not only tell us what is living in the soil but how the organisms interact. Resources:         231: Stacking Regenerative Practices to Create a Healthy Vineyard Daniel Rath Daniel Rath on Google Scholar Daniel Rath on National Resources Defense Council (NRDC) Healthy Soils Playlist (podcast play list) NRDC Regenerative Agriculture 101 page Soil Biodiversity in California Agriculture What the Soil Can Teach Us | Daniel Rath | TEDxBelmopan Wine grape grower perceptions and attitudes about soil health Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Daniel Rath. He is a soil scientist with the Natural Resources Defense Council. And today we're going to be talking about regenerative agriculture. Thanks for being on the podcast, Daniel. [00:00:10] Daniel Rath: Thanks a lot, Craig. I'm excited to be here. [00:00:13] Craig Macmillan: We've been trying to find folks to talk about regenerative agriculture because it's a real buzzword right now. [00:00:18] And it's a buzzword in the vineyard industry, but it's not vineyard specific. This is applying to all sectors of agriculture and globally. This is a big concept now. So that's inspiring and drawing a lot of people, uh, in different directions. But I get different definitions of it. What regenerative agriculture? [00:00:37] Daniel Rath: Well, first of all, I'll say it's not really surprising that you get a different definition depending on who you talk to because, you know, regenerative agriculture really hasn't been like very specifically defined yet the way I think about it. Part of the reason it's so hard to define is that it's really more of a philosophy and an approach to land management. [00:00:59] And so, you know, it's taking into acknowledgement the fact that agricultural systems have this complexity. And instead of trying to reduce that complexity, we lean into it. We see what advantages we can get from it. It's a holistic approach. You know, it doesn't just necessarily focus on the environmental impacts, but what are the social impacts? [00:01:18] What are the economic impacts of agricultural systems? Looking at things like local food systems and connecting farmers to consumers, but also how do we increase soil health? How do we reduce pests and diseases? It's funny. You should bring it up now. The state of California. Just finished a process in of defining regenerative agriculture for their legislative effort. [00:01:40] Craig Macmillan: Oh [00:01:41] Daniel Rath: Yeah, there's a draft definition out there have been numerous listening sessions The next one is on august 22nd, but I was part of that committee that tried to like Capture this sort of like ephemeral philosophy and like nail it down without hopefully killing it. [00:01:57] Craig Macmillan: Uh, and to put a timestamp, the date of this interview is August of 2024. [00:02:03] So this is new to that point. We'll see how that develops from here. Which is pretty cool, but no, I was not aware of that. That's pretty, pretty interesting. What are some of the specific practices somebody might use? So, philosophically, I'm in alignment. I want to build and protect my soil. I want to protect my community. [00:02:20] I want to have healthier plants. What are some of the techniques that folks are using around the world to do this? [00:02:26] Daniel Rath: Well, I will answer your question with a saying that my PhD advisor used to tell me every time I walked into her office, which was that, you know, what is your goal? What is the question that you're trying to ask, right? [00:02:37] Part of the reason that regenerative agriculture does not have one set definition is that it's going to look very different. different depending on where you are. A regenerative agricultural system in a place that is facing a lot of restrictions on water, low soil organic matter, the practices you use there are going to look very different than say if you have regenerative agriculture in a place that has regular rainfall, has a lot of soil organic matter, very active soils. [00:03:02] I would say that some of the most commonly mentioned practices are things like integrating livestock into perennial systems, cover crops, crop rotation, increasing the diversity on farm systems, reducing tillage, basically all of these practices that increase soil health, because really increasing soil health is at the the core of what it means to sort of regenerate a plot of land. [00:03:29] But if you're talking about specific practices, you kind of have to think like, well, what am I trying to regenerate? What are the goals that I want to get out of it? One other interesting topic is the idea of reducing external inputs, not eliminating them entirely, but reducing dependence on things like fertilizers and pesticides, seeing how a that can result in cost savings for farmers, but also Relying on the natural complexity of the system to provide those benefits. [00:03:58] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, that's always been one of the tenants of sustainable farming is to reduce the number of off farm inputs and reduce the number of farm outputs other than the crop, and that includes things like pollution, erosion, whatever, um, and try to develop a system that's stable in and of itself. Um, and it sounds like there's some things that can contribute to that. [00:04:18] Um, what about composting? That's another popular topic. [00:04:21] Daniel Rath: Composting, I forgot to mention that composting really adding organic matter to the soil. A lot of the systems that we've developed over the last few decades are very focused on adding nitrogen, which is important. Nitrogen is a really big limiting nutrient, but we've learned that adding nitrogen on its own is not enough. [00:04:38] You have to add carbon in there. You have to add other micronutrients that might not be contained in your typical fertilizer mixture. And so yeah, adding compost is a really great way adding organic matter residue crop. [00:04:53] Craig Macmillan: Again, the inclusion of animals seems to be, um, pretty consistent across different definitions, including mobile cropping systems. [00:05:00] In permanent crops that can be a little tricky. So like in vineyards, I have heard of folks that were grazing goats and sheep in season for the most part. Folks will plant a cover crop in the winter and then maybe they'll come through with some sheep or some goats in the springtime. I guess my question is, when I read other things and they talk about having animals as part of the system, I see like herds of cattle, which are generating a lot of manure. [00:05:25] And I can go, yeah, I, I bet that's doing a lot, but your smaller ruminants, in your opinion, I mean, can they contribute enough in a, in a, a seasonal, uh, past to, to make a difference? [00:05:39] Daniel Rath: Yeah, this, that's a really good point. I think the short answer is, yeah, I think they do. And so the example you gave is, I think the one I would have used, right, is that planting cover crops in between these sort of like, vines that are there for a long time, and then using ruminants to terminate those cover crops and to convert it into manure and urine, which was a great source of nitrogen. [00:06:00] When I was at UC Davis doing my PhD, we had a couple experiments on sheep terminating cover crops and goats terminating cover crops. And you could see the benefits in the soil, as long as you had those like livestock ruminants being on the plot. [00:06:15] Craig Macmillan: That leads to another question. You know, I've got the philosophy now. [00:06:19] I believe in the philosophy. I believe that I can actually improve the soils. One of the things I've always been a little suspicious of with regenerative agriculture is the idea of regeneration. I have a hard time kind of making sense of that in my mind in agricultural systems because things are leaving. [00:06:36] And certain crops are not big miners. Wine grapes are kind of famous for not really mining the soil that much and they can grow in very poor soils Doesn't mean you don't want to build those soils, but if I'm looking to detect what we would call regeneration, what kinds of Variables might I be looking at and what are the kinds of things that I might actually be able to get some metrics on? [00:07:00] Where I can say yes, this program seems to be working This is making a difference or I'm not seeing the results that I would like Maybe I should make a shift and try something different [00:07:09] Daniel Rath: Yeah, that's also a really good question. So I think there are actually two really interesting questions in what you just said. [00:07:15] The first one is, what do you measure? And again, it depends on your question, but very often the things that we will measure will be things like soil organic matter, right? We will be looking at measurements such as nutrient balance. So how much nitrogen is soil's organic matter, what are the nitrate and phosphorus levels in the soil for wine grapes? [00:07:36] I know you don't want it to be like too fertile because it is good to stress those grapes out a little bit to get a high quality product. You look at things like drainage and water storage. If you see better infiltration on plots, if you don't see water ponding quite as much. One thing that is becoming more common is tracking microbial indicators, right? [00:07:56] And so part of the reason that we do that is that microbes are like early indicators. They will change faster than the soil organic matter content. And so they can give you an idea of where you're headed and whether or not it's a direction you want to be heading in. I can, you know, apply to stuff like pest and disease too. [00:08:15] Craig Macmillan: This is a great one because I've been working on this for the last couple of years. What am I looking for? I, uh, there's a bunch of different tests that you can do. There's a bunch of different things you can look at. If I'm trying to get a sense of what's happening with the cell microbiome, what kind of testing might I be interested in doing? [00:08:30] What kinds of things might I specifically be looking for? [00:08:34] Daniel Rath: There have been a lot of advances in the last, you know, decade or so looking at this. One of the biggest areas that there have been advancements is tracking the incidence of pests and diseases, right? And so, you know, that is a really good one. If you're worried or, you know, concerned about a specific pest, there are often really good methods to test for that. [00:08:52] You can also be looking at biological tests that look at functions of interest. So say your goal is to reduce nitrogen application on your plot. There are measurements that you can make of nitrogen release from organic matter by microbes and that will give you a really good idea or, you know, a fairly good idea of maybe how much nitrogen this soil is already supplying. [00:09:17] California is also really interested in this. So another thing, there's a soil biodiversity report that came out about a year ago in which the CDFA asked us this very question. They were like, if we were going to measure soil biology across California for a number of different purposes, what would we do? [00:09:32] We had 15 scientists that have really been working on this for a long time. We all sat down and like, how do we capture the thought process and thinking that goes into this? into selecting the right microbial indicator because there are a lot of them and they're not all easy to interpret. [00:09:47] Craig Macmillan: Are those recommendations out there now? [00:09:49] Daniel Rath: I would say the, the report is out and in the report we, you, we have a couple examples. We're really hoping that the California Department of Food and Ag will sort of expand on those recommendations for more like, sort of like a targeted approach. Really what we did is we used that nitrogen example as an example. [00:10:10] It's like this is how you would do it, but really the devil is in the details. What is the specific area you're looking at? What is like the question you're looking to answer? The biodiverse report has at least like the thought process, what are the things you should be looking for? [00:10:25] Craig Macmillan: So we've been talking about kind of like more short term. [00:10:27] What about long term? You have some experience, I believe, in long term agricultural research. Like, I think you did a study that was like a 25 year retrospective, if you will, of the health of a particular farm. In the long term, in the longer range, What kinds of benefits should we expect? We've talked about pest and disease resistance, maybe water status. [00:10:51] What kinds of slow changes might we be looking for that we might see that would give us some confidence that this is working? [00:10:58] Daniel Rath: Sure. I mean, this is an example of why long term experiments are so great because. They're the only really way for us to get at this question. But you can expect things like improved biodiversity on, um, especially above ground biodiversity, below ground biodiversity. [00:11:15] That is a process that takes a long time. You can see things like improved water storage, improved water infiltration. You can see You know, if you're talking about the ultimate long term metric resilience, right, how do our agricultural systems respond to the climate changes that are already occurring and, you know, building that resilience means relying on this like complex biological network that really sustains our plants right now. [00:11:46] Increased carbon and organic matter storage is another really good one. And so, you know, over time you see all of these environmental benefits and along with that comes social benefits. We see improved human health. We see improved connectivity between farms and the communities nearby. Improved sort of farm worker health and safety. [00:12:07] All of these things are a little bit longer term, but they are all one of some of the goals and some of the benefits we see from regenerative systems. [00:12:16] Craig Macmillan: I want to drop back to one of the practices because I've talked about this quite a bit with folks. I want to get your take on it. No till or minimal till. [00:12:24] Or, uh, I talked to one person that said, uh, avoid excessive tillage. And the question that came back was, what the heck is that? What's excessive? You know, what, if I drag the disc through here one time, is that excessive? And this may apply to other crops that you've worked with. What role does tillage have in this process, in these systems? [00:12:45] Because one school of thought that I'm familiar with is, okay, we grow these cover crops, we terminate them with sheep, it's great, but we may still want to incorporate that material into the soil. So that it breaks down and gets in there. Then there's another school of thought that says, No, don't do that. [00:13:03] Don't touch it. Leave it alone. Let the system do what it normally does. And then there's a third school of thought that's like, well, I can't do that forever. Floors get too bumpy. Um, things need to be reset. Or I need to plant cover crops. So I need to set a seed bed. And again, you can draw from other cropping systems on this. [00:13:21] What is your feelings about the effect of tillage on the soil microbiome and soil health discrimination? [00:13:26] Daniel Rath: No, no till has been a really hot topic for quite a while. It came about when the NRCS was first started looking to reduce the impacts of a dust bowl and realizing that tillage was over tillage was a major cause of that. [00:13:41] And so when you are looking at no tillage, there are very clear benefits. There's increased plant root presence, decreased erosion, better soil structure formation, a potential for better infiltration. But you have to wear that against the. benefits of tillage. I mean, it has very clear benefits too. It helps to keep weed and pest populations under control. [00:14:03] It makes it a little bit easier, especially in annual cropping systems for roots to establish. Like you said precisely, it's a better way for incorporating organic matter into the soil. My point of view is that I think tillage is a valuable tool in the farmer's toolbox, right? And that what is over tillage is going to really depend on where you are. [00:14:24] If you're on a slope, probably less tillage is better because again, you don't want that top soil to be washed off. If you're on sort of like a flat plain and you know, you know, you're tilling to establish a crop, then it's probably not a big deal to have one or two tillage passes, at least from the erosion standpoint. [00:14:41] What we do know is that no till has also been recommended as a way to increase soil carbon. There's still, I think, a little bit of back and forth on that. At least we have seen is that no till increases soil carbon at the top. Part of the soil really doesn't increase at the bottom. So it's more of a redistribution of carbon again There are really clear benefits to tillage and you know There's a reason that people have been doing it for a long time [00:15:07] Craig Macmillan: kind of what I'm hearing I think this is a really great message is it's another tool. [00:15:11] It's a tool that we don't have to throw away But it is one that we should think about how we use it. I've, I've actually started to think about tillage the same way I think about, uh, pesticides and fertilizers. Where it's, it's a question of what benefit am I going to get from this? Do I need to do it? [00:15:28] Are there other things that I could do? And then you put that all into your calculator in your brain and, and try to sort it out. And I've had some very interesting conversations as how different people kind of sorted those things out. So I think that's a great point. That leads me to another question that I just thought of. [00:15:42] And so the role of synthetic fertilizers, for instance. The synthetic fertilizers have been pointed to, and I think accurately so, as driving land degradation in many cases, especially the overuse of nitrate based fertilizers. You also have environmental impacts in terms of pollution, potentially. Is there a role for conventional fertilizers in regenerative agriculture? [00:16:05] Daniel Rath: Yeah, well, that's a real hot button topic there. Yeah. [00:16:10] Craig Macmillan: Hey, we go, we go for deep water on the show. Inquiring minds want to know. Hey, [00:16:16] Daniel Rath: that's, that's a real good question. Honestly, that's a question that I has been taking up a lot of my professional time recently. Like you said, it's not a secret. We are seeing a lot of negative environmental impacts from Over application of fertilizers that includes nitrate pollution in groundwater that applies to pesticides as well. [00:16:36] You know neonic pesticides have had major problems with insect populations. I think that exactly What you said you need to sort of weigh the costs and benefits Of these like particular practices and you know In my work in my phd talking to farmers the sort of farmer calculus that occurs in like You know, in the minds of the folks that I work with is so complex. [00:17:00] There are so many factors that you have to balance. One thing to be aware of is that we are applying too much nitrogen fertilizer now, and that's pretty clear from like the negative environmental impacts that we've seen. And so it's less of an idea of like. Like how do we eliminate nitrogen fertilizer and more like how do we make sure that that fertilizer gets into the plant? [00:17:23] You know, how do we match that fertilizer application to what the plant actually needs instead of over applying, right? How do we keep it on the plot? Because it is expensive. No one wants it to be running off into the environment, [00:17:36] Craig Macmillan: right? [00:17:37] Daniel Rath: One of the things that has really come across to us is when we talk to folks about nitrogen fertilizer application, there are yield benefits, but very often it's also a risk management strategy. [00:17:50] You want to apply enough nitrogen fertilizer so that if conditions are ideal, you can take advantage of them. Really and truly, there have got to be better, less environmentally intensive solutions. impactful risk management strategies. You know, that includes looking at the way that we incentivize crops, looking at the way that we handle crop insurance, looking at the crop choices. [00:18:13] If you're in a area that has a lot of potential for agricultural runoff, it may be better to grow crops that do not require as much nitrogen, corn is very greedy, or to put systems in place that reduce that nitrogen runoff, cover cropping, riparian buffers, All of these things are like great ideas to get to the underlying goal, which is reducing the need for nitrogen fertilizer. [00:18:39] Craig Macmillan: That's perfect. Gosh, we just keep getting more variables, don't we? [00:18:42] Daniel Rath: Oh my gosh, I assure you that's [00:18:46] Craig Macmillan: And speaking of more variables, I want to switch topics now. This is great, background graded by some regenerative agriculture. I know that I now have a better sense of what the philosophy and the practices are. [00:18:56] However, you've also worked in the area of soil metagenomics and metagenomes. And this has come up in other interviews that I've done around soil health with soil microbiologists. What is soil microgenomics and where are we at and where are we going and what can we do with this and what's all the exciting stuff coming down the pipeline? [00:19:19] But first of all, what, what is it? [00:19:21] Daniel Rath: When you talk about soil metagenomics, in a teaspoon of soil, I'm sure you've heard the statistics somewhere, right? In a teaspoon of soil, there's like a billion microbes and like so much fungal hyphae. And inside each one of those cells is DNA. That are basically the instructions for life for those different cells. [00:19:40] What we do in soil metagenomics is that you extract the DNA from a soil sample. And then the most complex, insane puzzle you've ever seen. We try to reassemble them, right? Right. And so like that is only possible because of the advances we've made in computing over the last few decades. And I get, you know, the national labs have really like pushes forward. [00:20:03] You need a really powerful supercomputer to do it. Once you've done that, you have this sort of unprecedented ability to glimpse what is happening in the soil at a scale that we've never been able to before. And so that's part of the reason that people are really excited about it is because it gives us a window into like this. [00:20:24] previously unknown black box of how microbes work and interact in the soil. I worked on that during my PhD at UC Davis, looking at like how metagenomes changed in farming systems over 25 years. [00:20:37] Craig Macmillan: So I have always been looking for the work that I do, looking for what are the variables that I can measure and what's going to give me a number that's going to tell me what's going on. [00:20:46] At one point I hit upon soil respiration, and I was talking to a soil ecologist and she said, well that's fine, but that tells you how much life is there, but it doesn't tell you whether it's good guys or bad guys. And then dove in to a whole nother level of, Oh yeah, I hadn't thought about, oh yeah, you're right. [00:21:05] Oh, and then those guys prey on those guys, and then this happens over here. Oh wow, yeah, you're right. And then I got kind of hooked on the um, The Haney test, which is, I think, kind of falling out of fashion now, which again, people were throwing rocks at that, you know, and I think that when Haney first came up with that, that was something, it was like, we need something, and it would prove to be useful, I think, but I don't think that's as popular or gives us the kind of dimension that we really need anymore, at least that's what I'm told. [00:21:34] With metagenomics, we're going to be able to tell not simply quantities, but we're going to be able to tell possibly down to the level of genus, maybe even species of who's, who's down there, which could be really, really important because like pseudomonas, for instance, there's certain pseudomonas that are, um, pathogenic and there's others that are beneficial. [00:21:56] And so we kind of need to figure out who's who and what's what is, is that on the horizon? Maybe it's 10 years out or more, but is that on the horizon? [00:22:04] Daniel Rath: Probably a little further out than that. A [00:22:06] Craig Macmillan: little further out? Okay. [00:22:07] Daniel Rath: I'll try and give you an example here. So, one of the things that we get when we pull out all this DNA is we get sort of relative abundances of different types of organisms, right? [00:22:18] It's sometimes quite difficult to get to the absolute abundance of organisms because We're really looking at, like, proportions of DNA, but that doesn't really tell you, like, are there, like, massive amounts of this organism present in the soil. You just have a relative idea. When it comes to metagenomics, there's a lot of promise in being able to say, Oh, look, we've seen these genes that, like, allow you to fix nitrogen. [00:22:43] And we found these genes that are associated with these, like, pests. And that's a really good idea, a really good indicator of, like, But there's another level to it. And that's really, I think what one of the like exciting parts is, is that it's not just the genetic potential that matters. It's the interactions between organisms that is quite hard to pull out. [00:23:05] So to your example, you could have pseudomonas, you could have quite high levels of pseudomonas. Do you have a. predator that keeps those pseudomonas populations under control, right? Because if you do, then you might not be seeing a lot of disease, like presence in the soil, even though you have like relatively high amounts of it. [00:23:25] And so understanding these interactions is sort of the next level in actually getting practical, actionable information out of these metagenomes. And we're, we're still. Teasing that apart. So really, when I talk about metagenomes, it's about potential. What is the potential for things to happen? But it does not actually mean that is what is going to happen. [00:23:46] Craig Macmillan: Right, exactly. And so the commercialization of this technology is quite a ways out. [00:23:51] Daniel Rath: Yeah. I mean, there are companies that are working on it right now. Again, this, it's a, this innovation is really, we're going to need to like be iterating towards success here, but really a lot more sort of research and work is required, especially on these interactions, thinking about like how they fit together. [00:24:10] And I personally think that it's a useful indicator. I've given a talk on these like. Soil test before the real power hard part comes when you're trying to interpret right when you have a scale that says like based on these abundances There's X percent chance that you will have a disease or X percent chance that you will be able to cycle nitrogen better That's really hard to like say at this point in my opinion, [00:24:35] Craig Macmillan: right? [00:24:35] Right. Well, at least we're moving in the right direction. I think [00:24:37] Daniel Rath: we absolutely are and honestly The, the best thing to compare metagenome test is your own soil five years ago. It gives you an unprecedented look into how your soil has changed and progressed depending on whatever practices you've applied. [00:24:51] Craig Macmillan: Right, right. Going back to regenerative agriculture, is there one thing, piece of advice, idea, one thing that you would like growers to take away on this topic? [00:25:02] Daniel Rath: Yeah, I think that one main thing is that this is not just about one specific environmental impact. This is about thinking about how we farm, how we grow food, what is our relationship To both farm ecosystems and agricultural ecosystems. [00:25:21] You know, I think there's this idea that natural ecosystems and agricultural ecosystems, they cannot coexist. And I think that over time we're starting to see that maybe that's not true. We can encourage biodiversity. We can encourage sort of these complex natural processes on farms. And indeed they make the farms more resilient. [00:25:41] more productive, we get more benefits from that. And so just in a way that like natural ecosystems evolve, I think that farming systems are also evolving and growing. And to us, regenerative agriculture is about bringing all farmers, no matter where they are, along on this journey towards sort of more sustainable, environmentally safe agro ecosystems. [00:26:05] Craig Macmillan: That's exactly the word I was going to use, is uh, is we think more about an agroecosystem as part of a much larger system, um, which is what ecology is kind of all about. We can look at the ecology of a pond, but then we can also look at what role that pond plays in the forest, and we can look at how the forest plays in the landscape and we can just keep going depending on what level you want to do it at. [00:26:27] And I think looking at our farms as part of a larger ecological system and an ecological system in and of itself also I think is a huge philosophical move. Absolutely right. Where can people find out more about you? [00:26:39] Daniel Rath: The NRDC website is a great place to start. We have a number of different resources. We published a report on regenerative agriculture where we interviewed farmers from across the U S at least for California specific stuff. [00:26:50] The California department of food and agriculture, again, is, has this regenerative agriculture definition process that's being carried out. As of this date in August, 2024, I also have a personal website that I update infrequently. [00:27:04] Craig Macmillan: Well, there's something on there. Yeah. So, yeah, and if you can share those links with us, that would be fantastic. [00:27:10] Our guest today has been Daniel Rath. He is a soil scientist with the Natural Resources Defense Council. Thanks for being on the podcast, Daniel. [00:27:18] Daniel Rath: Hey, absolutely. It's been quite a pleasure, Craig.   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

Monitoring vine nutrition is critical for pest and water stress resilience and the efficient production of quality grapes. Jenny Garley, Chief Science Officer at NEWAGE Laboratories discusses the differences between SAP analysis and tissue tests. SAP measures real time nutrient availability in vascular tissue. While tissue tests look at the nutrients stored in the leaf; some maybe available but most are not. Learn how SAP analysis can improve your nutrient management program, from reducing nitrogen inputs to managing trace elements for optimal plant nutrition. Resources:         115: Examining Plant Nutrient Mobility with SAP Analysis Grape growers turn to sap sampling to monitor crop NEWAGE Laboratories – SAP Analysis The Difference Between Leaf Tissue and Sap Analyses The Grower's Guide to Plant Sap Analysis Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Monitoring grape vine nutrition is critical for pest and water, stress resilliance and the efficient production of quality grapes. Welcome to sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team. Where we bring. You the latest in science of research for the wine industry. [00:00:19] I'm Beth Vukmanic executive director. Since 1994 vineyard team has brought you the latest science-based practices. Experts growers and wine industry tools. Through both. In-field. And online education so that you can grow your business. Please. Raise a glass with us as we cheers to 30 years. [00:00:38] In today's podcast Craig Macmillan, critical resource manager at Niner wine estates with a long time. Sip certified vineyard and the first ever set certified winery speaks. Speaks with Jenny Garley chief science officer at new age. Laboratories. She discusses the differences between SAP analysis. Alesis and tissue testing. SAP measures real. Time, nutrient availability in the vascular tissue. While. Tissue tests. Look at nutrients stored in the leaf. Some may be available, but most are not. Learn how SAP. Analysis can improve your nutrient management program from reducing nitrogen inputs to managing trace elements for optimal plant. Nutrition. [00:01:21] Do you want to be more connected with the viticulture industry, but don't know where to start. Become. I'm a member of the vineyard team. Get access to the latest science-based. Practices experts, growers and wine industry tools through both in-field and online education so that you can grow your business. Visit vineyard team.org. And choose grower or business. Business. [00:01:43] To join the. Community of sustainable wine growers today now let's listen in [00:01:47] Craig Macmillan: our guest today is Jenny Garley. She is chief science officer at New Age Laboratories. And today we're going to talk about plant sap analysis and the idea of nitrogen conversion efficiency percentage. Welcome to the podcast, Jenny. [00:02:09] Jenny Garley: Thank you. Actually, thank you for having me back in your team. It's always lovely to speak with you guys and be a part of this. [00:02:19] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, we're glad you could come back. This is really great. I've heard about sap analysis in the past, a long time ago, and didn't really know anything about it because I was a dinosaur and when I was farming, I just did what I'd always done, what people told me to do, basically. That is, monitoring the nutritional status of vines is critical, obviously, for making fertilizer decisions, but also for making sure that they're happy and healthy. [00:02:39] You know, a vine that's in good balance is going to be resilient, going to tolerate different kinds of stresses, as well as basically be efficient. You know, it's going to produce a crop successfully. And with sustainability in mind in particular, our fertilizer decisions need to be directed. Now, traditionally, um, growers have used leaf tissue analysis of leaves and petioles, usually in the spring or at brazen. [00:03:03] Leaf sap analysis is another way of monitoring plant nutritional status. It's a very, very different way of going about it. What is the difference between the two methods? [00:03:10] Jenny Garley: I'm really glad you asked, because everybody asks this question, and it's very, very important, actually. Even though people use SAP and tissue sampling interchangeably, they are actually quite different from one another. So SAP measures the nutrient availability of the nutrients flowing in the vascular tissue, which is It's basically the xylem and phloem. [00:03:34] It provides a real time analysis of the nutrients that are available in the plant. And that is really one of the most important takeaways between sap and tissue, because tissue looks at the nutrients that are in the brick and mortar of the leaf that have gone into the leaf. Formation and development, the total nutrients, both available but mostly unavailable. [00:04:04] So those are huge differences there. Other differences is that tissue is taken from a singular aged leaf, just one. And then it's placed in a paper bag because that sample needs to be dehydrated. And then it needs to be ground, and then it needs to be ashed, and then it uses strong acid to form that analysis. [00:04:31] For SAP analysis, they only use linear pressure. No heat, no acid, no dehydration. Sap analysis, you need to sample a new yet fully developed leaf and an older yet functional leaf. And that is two points. And when you measure two points on a vine, that can give you mobility. And that is the second, uh, large difference between sap and tissue, is that one, sap gives you mobility. [00:05:04] And that it gives you available nutrients. Tissue gives you total nutrients from a singular age leaf. The way the analysis is done, there's heat, there's grinding, there's ash, and there's acid. What you lose in that is you lose, amongst many things, is sugar. No mobility. [00:05:27] Craig Macmillan: And when you're talking about BRICs, you're talking about carbohydrates that are in the SAP. So there's things that you can learn using SAP analysis that you wouldn't be able to learn using traditional, um, tissue analysis. [00:05:36] Jenny Garley: We're talking about leaf bricks, which is carbohydrates and soluble nutrients. When we're talking about bricks of the berry, of the grape, that's almost all sugar and quite different than a leaf brick. Thanks for bringing that up. [00:05:50] Craig Macmillan: So there's advantages then, because of the information that you get. What are the differences in terms of how you might interpret results from one to the other? Where, what I'm getting at is, let's say I've been doing traditional tissue analysis for, you know, ever. And then I go, yeah, the SAP analysis thing sounds pretty cool. [00:06:08] Am I just starting over? Is there any way I can connect the dots between the past and the present and make predictions about the future? [00:06:16] Jenny Garley: That's a good question. And we have people trying to do that all the time. Again, tissue is total nutrient analysis available and unavailable. SAP is what is available right now. So. Taking both tests, a lot of people do that, being able to equate them, that is different, they both give you different answers. [00:06:41] I wouldn't say starting over, I would just say giving more information, giving you another layer, a deeper understanding. Is how I would, I would put that I would just say you can only go so far with tissue and would you like to have a deeper understanding? Would you like to try to cut back on nitrogen? [00:07:03] Are you thinking that there could potentially be? An excess of nitrogen somewhere in your fertilizer program. SAP analysis can help you with that just as much as it can help you look at hidden hungers and or deficiencies. So if you want to talk about interpretation of SAP, we'll keep with the example of nitrogen since that's, um, the topic a lot. [00:07:28] Of today, nitrogen is highly flow mobile, and so when you see a physical deficiency on the vine, that means there's in nitrogen, that means there's been a prolonged nitrogen deficiency, and you see that yellowing in the older leaves, which is due to decreased chlorophyll synthesis. SOP analysis, taken early, can help you see those deficiencies in the report long before a physical symptom occurs. [00:08:01] Gives you time. SOP analysis gives you time. Some time, so the reason why SAP analysis can show you that is because again, we take a new yet fully functional leaf and an old yet viable leaf. So on a SAP report, when there is higher amounts of nitrogen in the new leaf as compared to the older leaf. That means those vines are trying to meet the greater demand in the new leaf. [00:08:30] They're not being given enough nitrogen, or they're not being able to take it up. So they're having to strip it out of the older leaves to meet that demand. And when that nitrogen moves out of the old leaf to the new leaf, that triggers a deficiency. That you can see on a report many times before that older leaves turn yellow. [00:08:53] Craig Macmillan: Which reminds me of something is the, what is the best timing to take samples for SAP analysis? [00:08:59] Jenny Garley: Again, great question. A lot of people like to think of sap, again, like tissue. And so they want to take just one or two samples. But sap is movement. It's flowing. It's nutrient uptake. Therefore, sap analysis is really made To be taken throughout the season and if you want a minimum amount if you're going to graph the nutrients over a season and really trying to Say cut back on nitrogen or say potassium. [00:09:33] You're going to need to have to graph that three points is the minimal amount of Data that you need to create a graph. So the minimum would be three I really like to say five. You can always cut back When the starting point usually for somebody that has never been involved in self analysis before would be a new leaf only. [00:09:59] And the reason I say that, you won't be able to see mobility, you will be able to see. cation and anion imbalances. And if you have a field with historical differences, um, than, than your other, than your other vineyards or problem areas, I highly recommend taking that about fifth leaf down on a brand new, in, in the springtime. [00:10:24] Because if you have a problem that you're trying to look at, Fighting it early is really the only thing that you can do. Waiting all the way until flower many times is, is too late to try to fight a deficiency and especially a toxicity. Really difficult to take the nutrients out of the plant. [00:10:46] Craig Macmillan: On the other end of the, uh, shoot, shall we say. The last fully functioning leaf, without like a Li Cor device or something like that, how can I pick which one of these older leaves is still really a functional leaf? And by that, do you mean in its full photosynthetic capacity? Because you've got what, it's about what, 40 days? [00:11:09] Um, is where the peak is? Something like that? Is it, are there visual signs? Is there something textural about it? Is there color about it that I can go, oh, I need to go five leaves up, or? Four leaves up, or whatever. [00:11:21] Jenny Garley: We provide pictures and protocols for taking a sap analysis, especially for vines. We have a beautiful picture of a vineyard, a vine, and where to take your new and your old leaf. Many times those older leaves are thicker. They're definitely darker in color than the new leaf, but we don't want to have a lot of crunchy edges. [00:11:45] And the reason I say that is because sap analysis, again, is a liquid, and if you send in leaves or somebody sends in leaves that looks like they've been raked up off the ground, that's essentially going to be a tissue test, not a sap analysis. That would be considered dead weight. We need about 90 to 100 grams per sample. [00:12:11] And if you. sent in a sample with a whole bunch of yellowing, crunchy leaves. That weight doesn't matter because we won't be able to extract any volume from it. So you'll need to go one to two up. That's why we say oldest yet viable leaf. We like to have some moisture in there. We need to be able to extract, um, a volume of sap from the vascular bundles. [00:12:40] So in a vineyard on a. Absolutely brand new, very healthy vineyard that the old yet viable leaf could be the oldest leaf, but on an older vineyard, maybe diseased, fighting something, having trouble taking up nutrients, maybe have some root issues, that oldest viable leaf might be the third up from the oldest leaf. [00:13:07] Because we do need a viable green leaf with moisture in it. [00:13:15] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, I'm kind of thinking about, um, the directions are good, and you have, uh, some resources to help. I'm also now thinking about, like, just touching, squeezing, breaking some of those older leaves. You can pop them off real easy. There's already an incision started, and you squeeze it, and there's nothing there. [00:13:29] And then other ones you can take, and they're nice and green, and you can rub them in your hands, and your hands turn green. You know, and you go, okay, that's probably the one that's gonna work. It's easy enough to do. So we're talking about nitrogen, but also you mentioned something else that made me think of something, and that is, what about other nutrients, including like, micronutrients? [00:13:44] Do those show up in SAP analysis, or is this just for nitrogen? [00:13:48] Jenny Garley: Absolutely. We have a whole trace element. area on a report. It goes in alphabetical order from aluminum, which is actually toxic. It's a heavy metal. We do provide that analysis for you going all the way down to zinc. The majority of trace elements are semi mobile to non mobile except molybdenum and nickel. [00:14:15] Those are mobile, but they're in very, very, very, very small quantities. So reading those on a SAP analysis is reading the parts per million. And not necessarily comparing the new to the old. [00:14:29] Craig Macmillan: So I can use this to make micronutrient decisions. You know, traditionally we take, um, Petio samples around Bloom set and then make decisions for applying some micros a month or so later, which has always been interesting to me because they need the micros earlier than that, but that's always been the way that was like, you just can't, well, okay, let's put it on there and hope for, hope for some, something next year, but that's the way we've always done it, it seems like we're kind of hoping that there'll be something there next year. [00:14:53] Now, SAP analysis, you had mentioned you can do quite early. So might I be able to do SAP analysis well before Bloom? Like you mentioned, like maybe once I have four leaves and I'm still in the elongation stage, the cluster, and get my readings and be able to make my micro decisions a little earlier. [00:15:10] Jenny Garley: Absolutely. Absolutely. And what you brought up is taking a traditional tissue test later after flower or even the veraison. You're right. You've missed the whole entire window of applying trace elements. Because trace elements, are so needed for photosynthesis and the plant really, really needs to photosynthesize, especially very early on to create energy for the vine, especially when they're trying to actually create leaves on that vine. [00:15:41] Trace elements are needed. Trace elements needed for enzymatic Actions and functions in the plant. And they're also basically there to help the macronutrients work better. All of those things need to happen very early on in the, in the plant. So yes, using SAP analysis to see how and if micronutrients are being taken up into the plant early on is vital in my opinion, [00:16:10] Craig Macmillan: That makes sense. Your lab has an interesting way of reporting Nitrogen because it takes different forms and you will see that in Tissue reports, but you have a whole different way of kind of expressing and interpreting them That's the nitrogen conversion efficiency percentage the nice percentage. I believe that's what you call it Tell us more about that. [00:16:32] I think I think it's an interesting concept [00:16:34] Jenny Garley: I have been talking about this for years and was doing the math for individual clients and companies. And I thought, you know, we should just put this on our report. Most people start on their SAP analysis path with nitrogen. There's a lot of interest in that. On a SAP analysis report, the lower the measurable N in nitrate and N in ammonium. [00:17:04] means that the plant taking up and converting the majority of nitrate and ammonium into amino acids and proteins. If there is high measurable nitrate or ammonium, the plant is having a conversion problem. And when the plant has a conversion problem, Before a grower goes and tries to add more nitrogen, they may want to figure out why their plants are unable to convert the nitrogen that the plants were already being given. [00:17:37] It's very, very important when sap analysis samples are taken that they are put in a cooler because in tissue, there's heat and grinding, which makes ammonium and nitrate volatilize. Which is why sap samples need to be kept cool in order for our NICE number to be the best it can be, to give the very best data. [00:18:06] When leaves get warm, you can no longer measure. Nitrate and ammonium. So, keeping those leaves cool and following those protocols, and I know I bring this up during nitrogen conversion, but you really do need to have cool leaves in order to have very, very good nitrate and ammonium numbers so that we can compare it to total N and give good, informative, nice percents. [00:18:32] Craig Macmillan: If I'm seeing and if I'm understanding this correctly if I have high Ammonium high nitrate that means we were not converting nitrogen into the forms that the plant needs, in terms of proteins, amino acids, things like that. Are there recommendations or practices or things that I might think about doing to influence that? [00:18:54] Jenny Garley: The first one, if the NICE number, the Nitrogen Conversion Efficiency percent, is low. So, low for grapes would be under 90. Grapes are actually fairly good at converting. If you were to look at corn or another crop, corn is actually very inefficient at converting. So, when we're talking about grapes, The nitrogen conversion efficiency percent really should be around 90 or above. [00:19:20] If it's not, and you're falling into the 80s, even getting into the 70s, the first thing I would look at is your total N, and is it excessive? If it's excessive, stop right there. Stop sign. Because the plants can only convert so much nitrogen in a 24 hour period, and if the plants are being overfed, that is number one on the list to Stop doing that practice because it's, it's creating poor conversion. [00:19:49] So that right there costs no more money for fertilizer. Just actually stop putting on nitrogen. And I would take another stop sample, get your report and see if. The new and the old leaves are actually, uh, very close together, very balanced. Because if you have a lot more nitrogen in that older leaf, that could be the problem for your nitrogen conversion right there. [00:20:14] Step two would be looking at your macronutrients that are involved. That would be sulfur, that would be magnesium. One people forget a lot is phosphorus. Phosphorus creates ATP. If you're putting a lot of nitrate in, your plants actually need more energy to convert nitrate into amino acids and proteins. [00:20:36] So that's another one to look at. The nitrogen conversion efficiency process actually means water. So looking at your water levels and are the vines getting enough water actually comes into play. One nutrient that people don't talk about a lot is calcium. Calcium is actually the master communicator nutrient, and so if calcium is quite low, the plant is having a hard time communicating for its needs, um, especially for nitrogen conversion. [00:21:10] And then going into your trace elements. Zinc, manganese, moly, copper, iron, those are all nutrients that are needed for good nitrogen conversion. [00:21:22] Craig Macmillan: So this would influence maybe my formulations, my choices. Sounds like my timing also might be influenced. [00:21:30] Jenny Garley: Yeah. Nitrogen conversion is very influential on other nutrient application timings. If you're because of the way some people have very large vineyards and they're not able to spoon feed nitrogen as much as they would want. So understanding what type of nitrogen they're putting out and putting other fertilizer that could help convert is, is huge. [00:21:55] Craig Macmillan: Which actually touches on another idea of talking about timing. I don't hear people talking about in season fertilization that much. Usually that's an end of season thing, and I think the philosophy is the plant's going to pull that up as it goes dormant, and it's in storage there in the trunk, ready to go for the spring, and then the plant will take it from there. [00:22:16] Obviously there's a big nitrogen demand during the growing season, SAP analysis would help you identify whether that demand is being met, or whether it is too great, or whatever. So this would be a way of fine tuning your fertilization program, potentially with a little spoon feeding in the middle of the season. [00:22:34] Does that make sense? [00:22:36] Jenny Garley: Oh yeah, that makes sense. Again, taking that SAP analysis as early as possible to really see, are you going deficient early on? You really don't want to go deficient early on in the season, especially if The majority of your nitrogen applications are in the ball. And how can you help the conversion if you are getting enough nitrogen but the vines aren't converting it very well. [00:23:02] So that really looks at dollars at that point. If you want to look at conversion, if you get down to the 70 percent mark, it means every dollar of nitrogen you're putting out, the plants are using 70 cents. So if you would like to make that 80 cents or 90 cents and actually try to pull back on your nitrogen, In order to do that, the plants have to become very, very efficient at the nitrogen they are being given. [00:23:27] And then people are really starting to be able to cut back on their nitrogen when their efficiency gets very good. And that's when people start pulling back 10 to 15, even 20, 30 percent, when they consistently have nitrogen conversion efficiency in the 90 percent. [00:23:46] Craig Macmillan: And it sounds like that's, um, influenced by some of these other micronutrients, um, like calcium, for instance, and phosphorus for the production of the ATP. Do you have some examples of clients that you've worked with that have adopted this technique and some of the changes they might have made? [00:24:02] Jenny Garley: The majority of people that start with SAP want to look at their nitrogen efficiency. They are somewhere in the middle of trying to make a decision on cutting back. And so I highly suggest, if that's where you are or somebody in the industry is looking, to take as many samples as you can for the first season and graph it out. [00:24:26] And you can see where the vines are taking up the most amount of nitrogen and where they actually start pushing it down to the older leaf. And right when they start pushing it down to the older leaf, that's a trigger for somebody that can make a management decision of, we add nitrogen and the plant is pushing it down to the, Older leaf, first of all, then vines aren't using it anymore. [00:24:51] Secondly, that's throwing away money because the plant is not using it. It's storing it. If you are going to use that nitrogen when the leaves. fall and try to incorporate that into the soil, great. But if you're going to prune it off, that, those are the decisions that you can make from that, that type of scenario. [00:25:15] Some folks are looking at, um, using this when they have high nitrates in their irrigation water, which is really problematic. And how to utilize the nitrogen that they already have during irrigation to convert it into amino acids and proteins so it doesn't affect fruit quality. That's another avenue that people have. [00:25:38] They already have the nitrogen there, they just need to convert it, they just need to utilize it. [00:25:42] Craig Macmillan: That's interesting. Yeah, I hadn't really thought about it that way, but that's true. What would be the one thing that you would tell a grape grower regarding this topic, in terms of the benefits of sap analysis or tissue analysis, or around managing your nitrogen and measuring what the conversion rate is? [00:25:58] What's the one piece of advice or one takeaway you would give a grower? [00:26:02] Jenny Garley: A lot of grape growers, wine grape growers, I talk to have a lot of vine stress. And if that's the case and you're using sap analysis to try to mitigate that, then you actually do need to look at your aluminum. And very few people do because when high amounts of aluminum are taking up, there is a stress. [00:26:23] Trying to mitigate that and looking at sap analysis And trying to see when that stress occurs. So, when your aluminum starts to go over one part per million, the vine can be starting into a stress. And sap analysis can see that early. Anything lower than a part per million, I call that background aluminum, because aluminum is in every single soil. [00:26:47] You're not going to get away from it. It's there naturally. So, When you're starting to see stress, then you need to look at other parameters such as E. C. electrical conductivity. A lot of people don't look at that either, but when elect electrical conductivity gets very high, the roots could actually be burning. [00:27:06] And that's not really a nutrient source. situation that is a watering situation that is a high salt index fertilizer situation. Those are things that can be seen in a SAP analysis early on and decisions can be made to try to mitigate stress and keep our vines happy and healthy longer. [00:27:28] Craig Macmillan: That is great advice. I just want to thank you for coming back. This is really great. And thanks for sharing your work, your insights. Our guest today has been Jenny Garley. She is Chief Science Officer at New Age Laboratories. Thanks for being on the podcast. This is really fun. [00:27:44] Jenny Garley: It was fun. I enjoyed. Thank you. It is. It is. [00:27:51] Craig Macmillan: That's what we're all about. Oh, and where can people find out more about you? And [00:27:55] Jenny Garley: on LinkedIn quite a bit. Jenny Garley. Uh, I also have my first article that I wrote in the Progressive Crop Consultant magazine, the January, February issue. And that is the difference between leaf tissue and sap analysis. And then, of course, New Age Laboratories, our website. [00:28:17] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by . Guillaume, grapevine nursery. Looking for top tier vines, Guillaume greapvine nursery pioneers in the nursery business since 1895 and serving Northern California since 2006 offers premium selections backed by generations of French expertise, providing the best genetic material for healthier growth and superior fruit to quality. Elevate your wine. With certified plants, you can trust. [00:28:52] Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Jenny Her article this this year and her previous interview on the sustainable wine growing pods. Podcast 115 examining plant nutrient mobility. With SAP analysis. If you like this show, do us a big favor by. By sharing it with a friend. Subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts at vineyardteam.org/podcast. And you can reach us at podcast@vineyardteam.Org. Until next time, this is sustainable Winegrowing but the vineyard team.   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

NASA has connected data about the Earth's surface since 1972. One of the first applications was for agriculture. Alyssa Whitcraft, Executive Director of NASA Acres grew up in the wine industry at her family's property, Whitcraft Winery, located in Santa Barbara California. Her goal is to make it easier for people and organizations to use satellite data to improve agriculture. Alyssa explains how different types of satellites including polar-orbiting and geostationary collect information that can be calibrated against crop-specific data to develop predictive models. Farmers can use these models to identify viral, fungal, bacterial, water, and nutrient stressors and forecast harvest. While this technology is being used in commodity crops today, there is a huge opportunity for specialty crops.  Resources:         129: The Efficient Vineyard Project 199: NASA Satellites Detect Grapevine Diseases from Space 233: The Gap Between Space and Farm: Ground Truthing Satellite Data Models Alyssa Whitcraft Group on Earth Observations Global Agricultural Monitoring Initiative (GEOGLAM)  NASA Acres NASA Harvest Whitcraft Winery Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] [00:00:04] Beth Vukmanic: NASA has collected data about the earth surface since 1972, One of the first applications was for agriculture. Welcome to sustainable wine growing with the vineyard team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth. Vukmanic executive director. Since 1994 vineyard team has brought you the latest science-based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both in-field and online education, so that you can grow your business. Please raise a glass with us as we cheers to 30 years. [00:00:39] And today's podcast Craig Macmillan, critical resource manager at Niner wine estates with long time sip certified vineyard and the first ever sip certified winery. Speaks with Alyssa Woodcraft, executive director of NASA acres. She grew up in the wine industry at her family's property. Whitcraft winery located in Santa Barbara, California. [00:01:01] Alyssa's goal is to make it easier for people and organizations to use satellite data, to improve ag. Alissa explains how different types of satellites, including polar orbiting and geostationary collect information that can be calibrated against crop specific data to develop predictive models. Farmers can then use these models to identify viral, fungal bacteria, water, and nutrients stressors. And forecast harvest. While, this technology is being used in commodity crops today. There was huge opportunity for specialty crops. [00:01:35] Alyssa is involved in numerous organizations and projects. So I highly recommend that you visit our show notes. And check out her website. [00:01:43] If you want access to more viticulture research and technology from the world's top experts, then you won't want to miss the premier Winegrowing event of the year. The sustainable ag expo enjoy the perfect blend of in-person and online learning. Speak directly with national experts. Earn over 20 hours of continuing education and explore sustainable ag vendors. It all takes place November 11th through 13th, 2024 in San Luis Obispo, California. As a listener to this podcast. Make sure you use discount code podcast 24 at checkout to take $50 off of your ticket. Register [00:02:19] today at sustainableagexpo.org. Now let's listen [00:02:27] Craig Macmillan: Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with Vineyard Team. Our guest today is Alyssa Whitcraft. She is Executive Director of NASA Acres, and we're going to talk about all kinds of exciting stuff that she's involved with, and I'll let her explain those. Thanks for being on the podcast, Alyssa. [00:02:43] Alyssa Whitcraft: Thank you for inviting me. [00:02:45] Craig Macmillan: You're involved in a whole bunch of different projects and consortiums and programs mostly around remote sensing and agriculture. [00:02:53] And you're excited about a number of different things in your field. What exactly is your field? I think it's a good place to start because I think a lot of people don't understand what it is. [00:03:01] Alyssa Whitcraft: I'm a geographer, which is basically the world's oldest discipline. We use the lens of space and place and location to understand the world. And knowing that things that are near to one another tend to have more in common than things that are far from one another. And similarly, we know that where you are in the world matters for all sorts of different things. And that's really the lens through which I see and understand the world. Specifically within geography, because geography is a very broad discipline, my expertise is in using satellite data and other Earth observations to understand what's happening across the world in principally agriculture. I've done work in the past in forestry as well. [00:03:47] Craig Macmillan: What kinds of things does this field have coming in the future? What are the things that you're most excited about in terms of all the different work that you're doing? [00:03:55] Alyssa Whitcraft: Would it be helpful if I gave a little bit of history, or is that too much info? [00:03:59] Craig Macmillan: . Please, please. [00:04:01] Alyssa Whitcraft: Sure. So a lot of people don't realize that satellite data has been collected of the Earth's surface since 1972. NASA launched its first satellite back then, and one of its first applications was agriculture. It was really for looking at global forecasting, production forecasting, and things like that in areas where We couldn't gather statistics like the USSR, for example. And so that was very early. [00:04:29] They thought, hey, we really need to understand what's happening with the global food production, global food supply. What kind of prices are we going to be able to get? Those were the very earliest experiments. And a lot of years have passed since then. It's 52 years now. That particular satellite was called Landsat. Well, it's called ERTS 1. It's been, renamed Landsat 1 in hindsight and they've just launched Landsat 9 two years ago. So we've really, we have a lot of series of it now with continuity of data for 52 years from that satellite, that mission alone. there's a huge plethora of other types of data though that are also collected. Landsat, for example, its characteristics are, it passes over the same place every 16 days at about 30 meter resolution. So 100 feet by 100 feet, about a football field, and then there's other satellites that pass over every day and they might have much coarser spatial resolution. So 250 meters by 250 meters, for example. And then there's also recently, because storage is cheap and the Internet is fast, there's a proliferation of these very fine spatial resolution satellites where you can tell almost down to the plant level. [00:05:38] Definitely tree level, what you're looking at, that's quite fine in resolution and still have some degree of rich spectral information. And what I mean when I say that is basically everything around us is reflecting light all the time or emitting light. And we only see a little tiny piece of it, the visible spectrum. [00:06:00] That's why it's called the visible. But there's so much richness, on both sides of the visible spectrum. So longer wavelengths and shorter wavelengths, and they tell us all kinds of things about what's going on with a surface. we see vegetation as green because that's what it's reflecting. But there's other things in near infrared that can tell us about vegetation health. Or sort of mid range infrared that can tell us about water stress, things like this. And so now we have more and more spectral information, more and more frequently and finer and finer spatial resolution. [00:06:35] So our ability to see a great deal of detail has come a really long way. And still just like kind of any instrument you use, your ability to do something useful with it is contingent upon its quality and also the quality of the kind of science that you use to interpret the data and turn it into information. [00:06:58] Craig Macmillan: What kinds of information is this data being turned into? And on what kinds of or agrosystems? [00:07:06] Alyssa Whitcraft: All over the world. There's two broad classes of satellites. One is called polar orbiting. So it's going around the poles and it returns to look at the same spot every, you know, it's governed by its orbit and a couple of other things. I said Landsat was 16 days, for example and others can be much more frequently or even longer. So that's one kind, polar orbiting. The other type is geostationary, which means that as the earth turns, it's always looking at the same spot. And that's what most of the sort of weather satellites are. So that's why you can get really like frequently every 15 minutes, like a radar image, for example. all that's to say, like a lot of the satellites we use are polar orbiting, and that means it's not biased toward only collecting data over the United States. [00:07:48] It's collecting data all over the world. In the past, because. storage was expensive. There wasn't very much storage capacity on the spacecrafts. You couldn't store it all. They used to have to select which images they were going to capture. So it might be passing over a surface, but it wouldn't turn the camera on. And only about, I want to say 2012, 2013 was when Landsat started acquiring almost every single opportunity. And not just capturing something like A third of the daylit scenes that could capture every day. so all that's to say, we now have like so much rich coverage the last 12 or so years with that kind of satellite. So that means like we're getting observations of the earth's surface where everywhere agriculture is grown at least every day, depending on the type of satellite you're talking about. And even for the finer resolution ones, you're getting it every day. 10 days, maybe once you are to 20 days once you account for cloud cover in a lot of areas. [00:08:44] Craig Macmillan: what kinds of decisions can people make regarding how they farm based on this kind of information? And my understanding is that this is public information, is that correct? [00:08:53] Alyssa Whitcraft: What I talked about was sort of where you can collect information. It's all over. It's not you know, biased toward any particular region per se. By virtue of that, it's not necessarily biased toward any one crop because it's collecting all those data. So those observations exist, but our ability to turn them into information is contingent upon how much we've studied that, that item. And, and how much what it, the light that it reflects in the satellite picks up on is related to whatever it is that we're trying to study. So that's to say if a satellite only collects visible information, then we're not going to be able to talk about sort of some of the items associated with chlorophyll content and like health of the plant. Or if it doesn't collect the long infrared or mid infrared you're going to miss out on information about water, things like that. [00:09:41] And that's just kind of a simplified answer to that piece. And so we're able to collect all kinds of variables. In my work, we've called them essential agriculture variables. they're basically core building blocks, variables that we can measure and infer about the earth based on satellite data about the state, what the change has been over time and what the forecast is to the future. [00:10:02] We can look at, Hey, what kind of crop is being cultivated here right now? We can see how has that changed over the last 10 years? We can look at, okay, this is the current condition. What's the forecast for harvest this year? different things like that. We can also do within season detection of certain stressors, biotic and abiotic stress. [00:10:22] So you know, can be viral, fungal, bacterial diseases water stress that can help with precision kind of irrigation scheduling. We can also look at you know, when you couple that with like short term weather forecasts, you can see, okay, there's going to be really high demand evaporative demand. And so we need to think about maybe irrigating or doing something in advance to prep the vegetation for that. You can also use it for nutrient applications. So, this is primarily in row crops so not really vineyards per se. But, we can take a look at what the current nutrient status is. Nitrogen, if it's nitrogen deficient, then you are only applying what it needs and not too much. Same goes with pesticides. You're not just doing blanket spraying. You can do early detection and mitigation. With nitrogen, you only apply how much is needed and where it's needed, which has important environmental benefits. It also helps the farmers sort of bottom line, not wasting money. And also in terms of a fertile excess fertilizer being applied and also not leaving money on the farm by not applying enough. It can be really helpful in kind of zeroing in on what intervention needs to be done and what you can prepare for at the end of the season. [00:11:32] Craig Macmillan: I'm just thinking through this, so you would have to have some crop specific, and maybe even region specific on the ground work in order to make the connection, the correlation between, I'm getting this reading, and then this is what's going on with the plants. [00:11:47] Alyssa Whitcraft: Yes. Yep. That's completely accurate. And I'm really glad you said it because there is a perspective on satellite data that it's magic, that you just take the image and you have the information. And that's just like not really how it works. Now we're getting more and more sophisticated models out there, but all models have to be trained on something. And just because I've trained it on a ton of corn in Iowa doesn't mean it's going to work on corn in Argentina. Like that's just not necessarily how these things work. some people call it ground truth. I prefer to call it training data, validation data. you know, in situ site data, things like that, comparison data. And the reason for that nuance is just to say that there is error in all measurement. So just because if your scale is calibrated wrong and you say, this is, this was my harvest, this was my yield, then that's not necessarily ground truthed see what I mean? So, and I think that that's an important point to make because we're trying to add an additional piece of measurement to the picture, right? [00:12:48] It can give you more frequent. more coverage deeper spectral information. It can a lot, but it's a piece, it's a component of a multi source decision support system. We say like garbage in garbage out on the remote sensing side of things. Our observations are very good, but you know, we're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars of engineering in the sensors and the satellites to go up into space. So those are incredibly high quality and the space agencies who fly them they do a lot of expensive CalVal, it's called, so they go and they make sure that the instruments like, you know, The analogy in your kitchen would be you stick your thermometer in boiling water to make sure 212 Fahrenheit or 100 degrees Celsius is exactly what your thermometer is picking up, right? So we do the same thing with satellites. that's great for the reflectance or for the wavelengths, but that's not information. So then what we go out, we might take some tissue samples. To understand what's happening with nutrients with pest and disease stuff, some soil samples for that purpose. Or for some of the more like workhorse, what we've been doing with satellite data for a lot longer, those are more novel applications. The lot much longer is what's growing where where it is. What's the season. Like why is it. Kind of just at the early part, is it flowering, reproductive, is it toward harvest and then also yield. [00:14:09] And so we go out, we take crop cuts, we do things like that, then we calibrate our observations or our models against those data, and then we can run a predictive model that can tell us for the same site in another year, or more commonly you take it from that site and then generalize it. to where you have satellite data that are continuous, like so you have a whole an image, but you don't have any training data from this vineyard over here. So you take the training data from this vineyard and see if you can use it to identify what's happening in other vineyards. And then you assess, how well did I do off of another set of data that's from the ground. [00:14:46] Craig Macmillan: And so I would imagine that that kind of work is done extensively in agronomic crops, or what we might call staple crops, you know, rice, maize, soy, things like that, wheat. But you can do this with specialty crops as well. You mentioned vineyards. If there is interest and if there is funding, we can do this kind of work and bring vineyards into this this, this kind of process, this kind of science. [00:15:11] Alyssa Whitcraft: Yeah. I mean, you're spot on. Like I said earlier, the earliest applications of satellite data. Were in kind of global production forecasting with the reason being that wheat prices, for example, are incredibly correlated with conflict. So as wheat prices go up, you see more human conflict. And so these are the huge drivers of global trends in prices, in food security, all these kinds of things that are really important to track. And so the, you know, the early app applications were really for that type of crop and for very large scale forecasting in the sort of 80s, 90s was when you started to see some of the precision management. So on farm information but perhaps not as much as people hoped for in in this kind of satellite world, there was a lot of unsuccessful startups and, and things like that. I think the big reason for that is like, if you're going out and scouting your 10 acre vineyard, like you can generally walk it. It's not a big deal. You're not driving a combine through. My family's in the wine business and I grew up walking vineyards with my dad and taking tissue samples and taking fruit samples and doing things like, it was just a part of the day, you know, if you're farming 10, 000 acres, that's not viable. [00:16:30] And so you're, you have, million dollar combine to these days and things like that. That's something with autonomous driving, you can program a great deal of information into it. sort of like historically, there just wasn't necessarily the, like. The demand for what satellite data could offer, you know, it was focused on kind of like yield and nutrients and water. [00:16:49] There just wasn't the same use case in, in specialty crops. In a lot of ways, especially since some of them are growing greenhouses. So like, we're kind of out of luck with that. And so, yeah, whoops, but that things have just changed. We have better satellites now that collect more information more spectral information, higher spatial resolution, more frequently, we can process so much more data now, which means. [00:17:14] we can kind of just keep throwing more and more data at a model until it picks up some signal that we never could have anticipated. That's kind of the basis of machine learning or artificial intelligence is that you just keep going like feeding it until you see if something comes out. That also has its own problems. [00:17:31] Pretty funny fails AI. I think we've seen before the models get overtrained and it's very. clear that they don't work once they're over trained. They, they spit out like a baby with three hands AI image. And you're like, that's not, that's not right. Or I saw a matzah ball on a plate. It was like, rather than like a soup dumpling, it was like a tennis ball that was like matzah colored. I was like, that's not right either. You know, it's funny things like that. So the same thing can happen when we're looking at, you know, the earth's surface as well. [00:18:00] Craig Macmillan: you are executive director of NASA Acres. That name has come up in a couple of other interviews. Could you explain, , what NASA Acres is and what you folks do? [00:18:09] Alyssa Whitcraft: Yeah, sure thing. [00:18:10] So NASA Acres is NASA's U. S. focused Applied Sciences [00:18:15] So why, that's kind of a long title, NASA is principally a research agency. Now, it's not it's not USDA where it does farm services or loans or reports on statistics and agriculture. It's famous for people putting a man on the moon and missions to Mars, but NASA has this whole huge earth science division. within that, there's you know, the, the component that's dedicated to launching the satellites and making the data really high quality. And then there's an accessible data, high quality and data accessible. And then there's sort of like the core foundational research, which is. We've never used satellite data to measure this thing before, or we have used satellite data, but now we're just going to apply it elsewhere and do a study that results in a paper. [00:18:56] So we learn a thing. That's research and analysis in NASA, and then there's applied sciences and earth action, which is, it's kind of new manifestation in NASA, which is like trying to take this data and really make an impact, really get the information, the data, the tools in the hands of people who are addressing, in our case, agricultural challenges. [00:19:19] So that's farmers, that's ranchers. That's people in the ag value chain that's ag retailers, all the, I mean, there's a whole bunch of people in here who can benefit in some way from this data. And our job is to work with them to advance the science as much as possible because NASA's brand is really like quality, right? [00:19:39] And then, but also neutrality. And so we kind of just try and lift. the floor, so to speak, make the quality as good as possible, advance the science, and then hope that the private sector that's out there that's serving people in agriculture can sustain the services or, and, and really be adding value to people in agriculture long, long after our projects end. [00:20:00] Craig Macmillan: And so that, that's going to be where the next link is, is the private sector picking up this information, this data, and then figuring out how they can use it for their client base, maybe for a specific crop or a specific region, and then we can we'll see some development there. we've seen with like material science, I think is a classic example of that, you know the space program resulted in a lot of advances in materials that now we don't even think about. They're part of our everyday life, [00:20:27] Alyssa Whitcraft: Yeah, like the blankets run a [00:20:30] NASA, more than just Tang, you know, when I'm trying to like get across to people that, the planet we study most is Earth to quote Karen St. Germain, who's the Earth Science Division Director for NASA. I mean, material science is a really good example, but we have it so much in all these things that like, be them weather and climate services That's, you know, Noah's job principally to create the kind of forecasting models that are pushed out when we're talking about the United States. [00:21:02] There's people all over the world doing it and then like weather channel or weather underground or whatever, build services on top of that. And then that's like what faces the consumer. So it's all kind of a part of an important chain. And in fact, NASA is in the background collaborating with Noah on this information as well. for us in the agriculture side of things NASA harvest, which still continues today as NASA's global agriculture applied sciences program. But from 2017, when it started until 2022, it was the whole kit and caboodle. So both us global international, the whole thing. And then they split the programs. [00:21:39] So into Acres and Harvest. I was the deputy director and program manager for NASA Harvest from when it started until I took over the helm and founded NASA Acres in 2023. NASA Harvest, there's a great example of commercialization or of, of really strong collaboration with the private sector. Which is when the Ukraine war began there was obviously a huge hole in information all of a sudden about what on earth was going to happen with the food that comes out of Ukraine, which between Russia and Ukraine, it's 30 percent of the world's wheat, wheat's very correlated with conflict to begin with. And there's certain partners who are a hundred percent reliant upon imports from Ukraine and or Russia of wheat. , you don't just go drive down the street to the next grocery store and pick up your wheat. Like this is billions, trillions of dollars of movement that can't pivot overnight. So the potential implications were massive. And the more information you have earlier to plan for that, the better. And that's where satellite data came to bear. You couldn't send field agents out when there's an active war happening to be like, what was planted? Is it growing? Are farmers? Applying nutrients. [00:22:50] Is it going to be harvested? Things like that. NASA Harvest partnered with a number of organizations, but one was a private space company called Planet who collects sub meter and three meter data. daily with they have many, many small satellites and so they're, these are not the three, 400 million satellites that NASA flies. [00:23:08] These are much less expensive and they can fly way more of them. They're much smaller. They're a very different satellite. But they're great for getting high spatial resolution often. And when you can't go out and collect ground data. to do training on your images. Was this planted? Was this not planted? [00:23:25] This appears to be this crop. This appears to be this crop. Satellite data of that kind are very helpful. And so then we would use that to train some of the other satellites that have perhaps richer spectral information or other qualities that we might look for in a certain analysis. [00:23:40] And because we had this partnership with Planet, they were going out and collecting the data. We were able to do this analysis. talk about, you know, what we expected to see in terms of wheat harvest that year and sunflower and corn and rapeseed and all these really critical crops that Ukraine exports and help us prepare and mitigate any potential food security crisis and then Planet. [00:24:03] On the flip side, they've suddenly made a huge impact with their data. And they've additionally been able to, you know, we do a lot of work on the. nitty gritty of the engineering of radiometric calibration and things like that. We also can support them in improving their imagery. And then now they have a use case in agriculture and all these different kind of things by partnering with us. But we've also advanced the models and the science and the knowledge that's all a public benefit. And so that's like a really lovely investment from the federal government that kind of has this big societal benefit, but then also supports the private sector and continued innovation and services. [00:24:37] Craig Macmillan: in this case, it allows for the prediction of what may be available right? [00:24:43] Alyssa Whitcraft: Yeah. In that example, for sure. The war broke out in February and the winter wheat harvest would have been, gosh, like may to June. You're looking to see how was the, was this coming back after winter? We're, what was the condition of the crop at a baseline? Were people able to apply nutrients of any kind? And once harvest time came. Were people able to go down in the field to harvest or did they not do it because they had been killed or evacuated or because there's unexploded ordinances in their field and things like this. [00:25:13] And so that was really the beginning of the analysis and then it, it continued for other crops into the future. And it's a really rich ongoing project about which you can find copious resources online. [00:25:26] Craig Macmillan: how are we doing on, on those areas? Are there people that are stepping up in the private sector to work on that. [00:25:31] Alyssa Whitcraft: Definitely. Yeah, there are. The public sector, you know, my side of the house is too. but it's interesting. it's an interesting point because we focus so much on agronomic crops. We've done that because there's a really clear reason to invest public dollars. I think the very early stage collaboration with the private sector for specialty crops is much more critical than it was for these kind of big agronomic crops. So that means from the odd outset. the projects need to have very engaged partners from the private sector. It might be in the form of just working directly with the vineyard so that they can kind of maybe collect some of the ground data or if we're developing a tool, they can kind of like test it and provide feedback, things like that. [00:26:14] But then there's going to be other circumstances where we might be trying to use a compendium of information. So you might be using some soil sensing to look at water status. But it's like, you can't place a million of them in your field. So, you know, you might take the benefit, the accuracy, the depth that you get from those expensive and ground instruments, and then try to pair them with the satellites and then build like kind of a hybrid measurement system. [00:26:41] You get the benefit of the update frequency the satellites and the spatial coverage, of course. And then you get like the really good quality. measurements within the field. we've seen a lot of burgeoning partnerships in specialty crops and of course also agronomic commodity crops as well, but where we're trying to look at a hybrid network of in ground sensors or canopy sensors or drones. side canopy robots that my colleague Katie Gold, who was on your, podcast before, she uses these robots, Katie Gold and Yu Jiang, her collaborator at Cornell to, to sort of build toward the long term adoption of, of these, actually not even long term, to build toward the short and medium term adoption of these things, because that's real, it's really going to sustain them, NASA projects. typically three years acres and harvests are each in five year kind of increments harvest was renewed and For its global work and spit off its domestic work. And so hopefully we will be renewed as well But it's not the design of federal research to like provide every service forever We need to work with the people who need the information Because they're gonna tell us what to do and what like what matters to them You and then we need to work with the people who can kind of own the services long term and maintain those high touch relationships with their customers, growers, ag retailers, whomever it might be. [00:28:04] Craig Macmillan: Spain, places like that Australia? [00:28:06] Alyssa Whitcraft: You this is an area I'm definitely less comfortable talking about. within NASA Acres, we really only have Katie and you's project that's in specialty crops. And that's principally just by virtue of all the things I described. It's really only been the last four or five years that this stuff has started blossoming. And even within Katie's project. She's not using satellite data really, right now, she's done some demonstration stuff. We're preparing for a NASA instrument to launch in 2028. And we're doing years of preparatory work. NASA has an airborne fleet. People don't know that. And it's collecting very similar data to what will on this satellite SBG. Also, there's a sensor mounted on. The International Space Station called EMIT that also collects similar information. So we're already using that, but we're kind of like priming the pump for primetime, right? So Katie is very, Katie is like a very kind of ahead of the curve kind of situation person. The spectroscopy of the laboratory stuff, we all, we all know that it's been around for a long time, but the imaging capability to do it outside is novel. And so she and Yu are kind of working together on that. I don't have another project in my portfolio that does that right now. We are looking at using those data similarly, the hyperspectral is what it's called, data. We're starting to try and build use cases in rangeland monitoring as well for rotational grazing. [00:29:33] So looking at forage quality, it's not just a matter of whether the biomass comes back, it's whether it's the right biomass, so the right mixture of different crops. If you've overgrazed an area, you'll just get like the one dominant. type of grass will come back, and that's not very nutrient dense, and it's not very sustainable, it's not very regenerative. If you don't overgraze an area, then things will grow back in a more balanced way, and that's something that we're trying to explore, how well satellites can pick up that heterogeneity in the landscape. That's an example there. I'm aware of some work in sort of olive groves in Spain, in Italy And I know there are some companies who have attempted to do kind of proxy measurements of shade coffee and cocoa. Very high value crops, but you can't see them because they're under the canopy of another tree. And there's been a lot of different experimental ways of trying to get at that. But in terms of my understanding of how successful those different cases have been. It's a little outside my wheelhouse. It's pretty novel. and yeah, I mean, I, the, the thing about being an applied sciences program, we're not the foundational research RNA. So what that means is like, we've got to kind of see the science demonstrated fairly firmly for it to move into a major part of the portfolio. [00:30:53] That said, like there are some projects in my portfolio that are higher risk or that like, you know, that delivery might be a few years off because of the lack of instrumentation. And there are some stuff that's more experimental, but where those are the case like that Rangeland project or Katie's project That's because we have super engaged users already. So there's ranchers who are at the table for another purpose. Katie is, you know, an extension agent for Cornell working with grape and apple growers, and they want to know how to manage this. [00:31:23] So she already has engaged parties. So having the satellite stuff be like maybe a little bit more nascent and its development cycle is okay versus, you know, where we don't necessarily have the strongest user. identified and partnered already, we're kind of relying on the more mature applications and starting to kind of transition that stuff out more quickly to broader audiences. [00:31:45] Craig Macmillan: How can the wine grape industry or other crops, support this and encourage research in their particular area? [00:31:54] Alyssa Whitcraft: There's legwork on both sides meaning that we need to be with the communities we live and work in. Thank you. to get those people involved in what we have to offer. So it's like there's a trust building component, there's an awareness building component and then there's also just the participate if somebody contacts you about being in a study or, you know, by word of mouth, Oh, this vineyard down the road is doing it. [00:32:17] Like, maybe we'll do it here. I trust that person's discretion, so I'll do it here. Collaborating and being active in that research from the NASA acres perspective is, is really important. And more than just really from the NASA acres perspective, from really the kind of, you know, we're neutral, we're trying to build quality, we're trying to raise the floor. [00:32:36] So even if you come, you know, you come through us, we hopefully make things better, which feeds back benefits to you in your, in your operation, but also to your kind of broader industry. So there are some vineyards, for example that I have personal relationships with from my whole life. And when Katie and I started collaborating and, you know, just generally sharing passions for a number of things, including wine and remote sensing, She asked if I had any, you know, friends who would let her take tissue samples who thought they might have particular diseases or were just curious to collaborate so that she could kind of do this proof of concept of these technologies and do these studies. And I was like, yeah, probably. So I just shot a couple of friends text messages and they were all like, sure. And the thing is, is like, they know me, right? And so they know that I'm not going to Never do anything intentional to bring harm. And I certainly would also go work very hard to make sure that even something I hadn't foreseen was protected. And I think that that's actually so critical, probably in every industry, but I'm most comfortable in agriculture. Like these are strong communities of trust that are built up. You know, you knew my dad and when I was 15 he had a major surgery in kind of mid, late August which coincides nicely with harvest, the beginning of harvest. [00:33:57] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, the wine grape harvest in california. [00:33:59] Alyssa Whitcraft: exactly. My dad was a winemaker in in Santa Barbara County, and that's where I grew up And I grew up in the winery so yeah when I was 15 He got he got really sick And he had to have a surgery and he was in the ICU for like a week and after that like it takes a while to recover so people that he had mentored, people who he had been close with for, you know, 20 odd years, 25 years in, in the region just kind of stepped up and processed his fruit, you know? [00:34:28] So one, you miss one harvest, you're donezo, you know? Like that's just not how things work in the wine business. And my brother, who's now the winemaker, was only 19 at the time. So like, technically he wasn't even old enough to drink wine legally, but like, you know, he was there kind of. Running the ship with, you know, the huge support of these family friends who made it happen. So all that's to say, like those trust networks are everything in, in agriculture and everything in sort of agri food and like I said, probably other industries too, but I just don't know them. That's certainly the case in agriculture. And we're not going to make any like progress unless we build those trust relationships. [00:35:08] And then since we can't meet everybody face to face, we need you know, those people to then be the hinge points to bring their, their kind of collaborators, colleagues, friends business partners, whatever, to the table to tell us what they need, to tell us what they want, give us feedback on what we've done and then work with us if they see value. [00:35:27] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, I'm thinking of there are a number of organizations in the United States, in the wine industry, that fund or promote research on particular topics, and I can see there might be an opening there. you know, talking about trust, folks that have gotten awards, farmers that have been collaborators on these projects. I think it's a good place to start. For these new technologies. I think it's an interesting idea. I hadn't really thought about it that way. And I'm definitely going to take, take that away with me when I go to some of, these meetings. , and some of these, , some of these, , review, , committee [00:35:57] Alyssa Whitcraft: Related to that, so one of the things we're just beginning to kind of explore the logistics of how we would implement it is identifying sort of farmer champions or kind of innovation partners. I don't know exactly what we want to call them, but they're people who are like amenable a collaboration [00:36:17] , everybody only has so much time. So it takes time to do these things together. So if you have like a real passion or a real interest, it's something you might more willing to do. It helps us do it. the most good the most quickly. , so we're kind of looking at creating this kind of collaborator farmer innovation partner kind of thing where we work, you know, on their farms, they kind of give detailed feedback. [00:36:38] They serve as different kind of hinge points, , to meet people in their community and really be champions we're doing, but also like not just be our hype guys and hype girls out there, but just be like, Hey, what you're doing makes no sense. Or like your aunt, you know, that's great that you created this capability. [00:36:55] That gives me a forecast every week. I need it every day. Not useful to me. Things like that. So the frank feedback, , early adopters, but high touch early adopters, people who really are passionate about benefiting their industry and communities. [00:37:10] Craig Macmillan: the state of the, world right now you've mentioned nations, lots of different crops, lots of, different technologies in your work and also kind of in the future, what's happening now to move all of this forward and where do you see it going? [00:37:23] Alyssa Whitcraft: not to you know, date myself, somehow I'm one of like, the more se, I don't know senior is the right word, but like I'm no longer the young in this world. And so I've been around long enough that I started remote sensing in remote sensing of agriculture before. [00:37:39] was really on an upward trajectory. Things have changed the last 15 or 16 years. But when things were really was the food price spikes in 2008 and 2011 that led to huge, push over a billion people into chronic food insecurity. It's horrible. So let's launch this called GeoGLAN Geo Global Monitoring that's going to use satellite data to give us information about, crop production globally. [00:38:05] Some 40 odd years passed when. NASA first started doing it with Landsat. Within that GeoGLAM initiative, I was program and still in program scientist one of them. And my specific role is I work with the different space agencies in the world on developing new missions for agriculture. [00:38:20] I basically advocate for the agriculture community to make sure we get the observations we need to do our analyses. what started out is very much this like food security, markets and trade kind of stuff. Segwayed over time, as the field grew, changed, ag tech blossoming, whatever it might be. [00:38:38] And around 2019 2020 was when my specific focus started turning a little bit more, not stuff, but started zeroing in on the kind of farm level stuff. Because I got really interested in the way my discipline, my methods, my tools increasingly being used in the sort of sustainable ecosystem services marketplace. [00:39:01] Without there being a whole lot of kind of methods, development, calibration, validation, like, yeah, we can, you know, create a map, but is it any good kind of thing? Or yeah, we can create a model, but does it work? People were coming to us with the NASA harvest name and the NASA kind of name and saying, can you validate this? [00:39:17] Can you do And we all felt pretty strongly that our role was really to lift. votes for everyone. That's where we zeroed in on that topic wise in the Harvest Sustainable And Regenerative Agriculture Initiative, which we call Harvestera. I'm also the executive director of that. all these tools have advanced. [00:39:35] The need has advanced. The audience's kind of openness has advanced. The kind of critical need for us to use agriculture as a tool belt to restore ecosystem health, soil health in rich communities and fight climate change, it all kind of needs to start at a baseline of understanding where we are and where we can go. [00:39:54] And so I see satellite big part of that. This is all kind of coming together now. We still need the public sector's investment in terms of high quality observations. access, the lifting of the science in order for that to really take flight and be reliable and be good. that work that I've done for 12, 14, something like that, 13 years now through GeoGland with the space agencies has recently been morphing, into not just advocating for food security and market applications, but also saying, you guys, we got to think about ecosystem services. [00:40:25] We have to think about sustainable management. Got to think about the precision. And so the space agencies are now receiving this message that there's a whole new set of value propositions for their data, but also the public sector pushing that direction. [00:40:39] And then we like kind of push together. Toward impact. [00:40:42] Craig Macmillan: one message that you would want to tell wine growers regarding this topic? [00:40:46] Alyssa Whitcraft: Gosh, one message. [00:40:48] Craig Macmillan: Two? [00:40:51] Alyssa Whitcraft: Oh man, I guess you know, I think what a lot in my field don't think a lot about is quality Of the crops. We tend to think about quantity. Of the crops. and as a result, we can kind of answer use the wrong, use the wrong approach, answer the wrong question. And for specialty crops and I think, you know, what's finer than fine wine in, in terms of how much finesse you have to have from the 25 plus year old vines through bottling. [00:41:20] What kind of needs a higher attention to quality I think that. for the grape growing community, particularly for wine and fine wine. they could maybe help shape this and push this, put out the demand there and say like, I don't need you to tell me how to absolutely maximize, make the like juiciest, wateriest, highest volume of berries. [00:41:40] Like I need to know how to make the best quality. I need to know how to prevent losses related to extreme weather. I need to make sure I don't have my die that, I've been cultivating for so long to build these beautiful old growing and all that, they're more important than maybe they realize they are in this space and could push to really move our science and usership toward quality more than perhaps we have historically. [00:42:03] Craig Macmillan: and I really appreciate you sharing that. This has all made me think about an interview that I did recently with an extensionist from Texas A& M we were chatting after the interview actually about climate change. She said, there is not a single grower in the state of Texas that is a climate denier. [00:42:22] Everybody sees it. It is getting hotter. And things are changing and they're going to have to change. There's no doubt about it. And that reminds me of changes in other agro systems. over time whether it's changes in the way the soil fertility is, or changes in rainfall, or changes in disease patterns. I think there's applications, especially in areas that are suffering extreme stresses now, that'll apply to places that'll suffer extreme stresses, maybe a little bit later. [00:42:49] So I think that's a great message that we can bring to These programs say, Hey, we need. And here's maybe how can we do it? How can we benefit from what you're already doing? I think that's a great message. Where can people find out more about you? [00:43:01] Alyssa Whitcraft: if you want to find out more about NASA acres, you can go to org. If you want to find out more about the Harvest Sustainable and Regenerative Agriculture Initiative, that would be HarvestSara. org basically any program I've said today, you can just put a org at the end and it'll work. And if you want to learn about my family winery, it's WittcraftWinery. com And just shout out to my dad, my mom, and my brother for kind of sparking and maintaining my love of and interest in food and wine. [00:43:33] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, And just on a personal note your dad, Chris was a mentor of mine. It was one of the first winemakers That I worked side by side with and had a huge impact on me. Especially around the idea of quality. [00:43:43] Alyssa Whitcraft: Okay, so not to totally digress here, Maybe it's germane to the topic, which is I was pre med at UCLA. And I took a a geography general ed course called people in Earth's ecosystems just to fulfill a gen ed requirement and fell in love. And that professor bonded. and he did a lot of remote sensing of tropical I took his remote sensing class. We were supposed to. pick a and design it. And the picked was trying to. Compare every single metric that we could derive from satellite data for Conti, with, with some vineyards that my dad sourced from at the time so like Bien Nacido. Obeying these different vineyards and trying like in compare, I mean, it was the polar opposite of a robust study. I was like 20 and it was my first remote sensing class, but it really like capped my interest because trying to understand. Obviously there's the climate pieces to some degree, there's the soil pieces, but you know, my dad was the first or one of the first at least to do the blocks designation in wine. [00:44:45] So he had N block and Q block and Bien Nacido. And I was like, well, what was it? characteristic that made them sort of different? Could you come up with that in a way, not that we should quantify and sanitize everything because there's certainly a je about these things, but like, what is it that creates quality, ? [00:45:01] , and what of it is sort of biophysical in nature and could be measured and that kind of really sparked the interest that shaped the rest of my career. [00:45:09] Craig Macmillan: That's fantastic. I really want to thank you for being on the podcast. Our guest today was Alyssa Whitcraft. She's executive director of NASA acres, fascinating conversation and tying together some pieces from previous podcasts. Yeah, just thanks for being a guest [00:45:24] Beth Vukmanic: thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by, Baicor. A manufacturer of fertilizers, specializing in liquids for foliar and soil applications. By course, plant nutrients are 100% environmentally friendly and organically based. Each is specifically formulated to provide the optimum level of nutrients, plants need. Baicor's products. Are created from organic and amino acids found naturally in plants and in the soil. They use the finest natural materials. Blended scientifically to assure quality and effectiveness. [00:46:02] Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Alyssa NASA harvest NASA acres plus sustainable Winegrowing podcast episodes 199 NASA satellites to detect grapevine diseases from space. And 233, the gap between space and farm ground-truthing satellite data models. [00:46:21] If you'd like the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend subscribing and leaving us a review. Until next time, this is a sustainable Winegrowing with the vineyard team. Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

If you are dealing with vine mealybug in your vineyard, you are not alone. Kent Daane, Cooperative Extension Specialist at the University of California Berkley studies different types of mealybug populations across the globe. Kent covers organic and conventional strategies, ways to increase the presence of generalist and specialist natural predators, and the importance of establishing refugia for beneficials. His latest work focuses on area-wide management tactics. Looking to the European Grapevine Moth eradication program as an example, Kent sees an opportunity to decrease vine mealybug populations through neighborhood driven monitoring, trapping, coordinated sprays, and mating disruption. Resources:         119: Vine Mealybug 101: Species Identification, Lifecycle, and Scouting to Create an IPM Program 130: The Biological Control of Vine Mealybug Using Mealybug Destroyers and Anagyrus Wasps Biology and management of mealybugs in vineyards Ecology and management of grapevine leafroll disease Impacts of Argentine ants on mealybugs and their natural enemies in California's coastal vineyards Insecticides for a mealybug and a carpenter moth on vine trunks, 2023 In-season drip and foliar insecticides for a mealybug in grapes, 2023 In-Season Drip and Foliar Insecticides for a Mealybug in Grapes, 2021 Kent Daane Mealybug transmission of grapevine leafroll viruses: an analysis of virus–vector specificity Sustainable Control tools for Vine Mealybug UCCE Napa Viticulture Extension Leaf Hopper site Vineyard managers and researchers seek sustainable solutions for mealybugs, a changing pest complex Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] Craig Macmillan: Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with Vineyard Team. Our guest today is Kent Daane. He is a Cooperative Extension Specialist with the University of California, Berkeley, and he works primarily out of the Kearney Agricultural Research and Extension Center. And today we're going to talk about a number of topics. Thanks for being on the podcast, Kent. [00:00:17] Kent Daane: Craig, thanks. I'm happy to be here. [00:00:20] Craig Macmillan: Let's dive in on one pest that everybody's interested in, continuing to be interested in, and you may have some new insights or newer insights on this. Let's start with mealybug management. Kind of what's the state of the art in that topic right now? [00:00:33] Kent Daane: Yeah, that's been the number one question I've been getting for many, many years now. It is an invasive pest. We know it came in, probably being brought in by a grower down in Coachella Valley. It has since spread into the San Joaquin Valley, Central Coast area where you are, Napa Sonoma, and it's been found now in Oregon. Just like Napa, Oregon has attempted an eradication program. And probably just like Napa, most likely it's not going to work. It's a very, very difficult insect to kill 100%. I mean, I can come up with all kinds of different programs, soft programs, hard programs, expensive programs, inexpensive programs, where I can suppress that insect pest. It's very difficult to remove it from a vineyard. And that becomes important when you think about the kinds of damage we're worried about in Central Coast wine grapes. Pretty much anywhere where they're looking at grape quality. But especially in the cooler regions. So, this insect, this mealybug, is one of many mealybug species. that is a vector of grape leaf roll associated viruses. And this is the primary reason it grows to such high pest status. So for the most part, the growers can knock its levels down far enough that it's not in the grape clusters or it's rarely found in the grape clusters. That's more of an issue for table grape growers. It's a cosmetic pest. When you look at some of the Regions in the San Joaquin Valley where they're growing a lot of table grapes Kern, Tulare, Kings, Fresno, counties, there's enough heat accumulation and these grapes are harvested early enough in the season that they can still build up their Brix. They can still get a very good grape to market. Even when there's some vinely bug on the vine, they just don't tend to be as impacted by this leaf roll pathogen as our wine grapes. When you get into regions like San Luis Obispo, Napa, Monterey, Oregon, where they really are trying to hold those grapes on the vine for a longer period of time, trying to build up the bricks levels. That's where this. pathogen causes so much damage. [00:03:06] Craig Macmillan: most of our growers are already going to be familiar with this, but what kind of damage does the vine mealybug cause? It's so, so terrible. [00:03:12] Kent Daane: So the vine mealybug, besides being a vector of this pathogen, is also a direct pest of the grapevine. It can feed on the roots, on the trunk, on the leaves, and in the fruit. When this first hit California, we were working on it primarily as a San Joaquin Valley pest. growers that were putting on, you know, the products of the day dimethylate, lanate. If they were missing , the, target window where that pest was exposed, we would see thousands and thousands of mealybugs, not just per vine, but sometimes a thousand millibugs per leaf. It was causing defoliation. It was causing the berries to raisin on the vine. In South Africa, populations were getting so heavy. It was killing the vines themselves. How many people out there 20, 30 years ago were spraying so many neonics as we're saying today? We weren't doing that. now really, we were spraying for leaf hoppers as our number one pests followed by mites in case there was a flare up. It changed what we were doing in terms of pest management. In fact there's a group of us working internationally. Not just on the vine mealybug, but other mealybug species, because we've seen vine mealybug, grape mealybug, citrus mealybug, all becoming more problematic over the last decade. And we're, asking that question, why? What has gone on? And one of the thoughts we've got, not yet shown, but one idea is that we just sprayed so many of these, these newer chemicals that the mealybugs are developing resistance, The natural enemies are not, and we're seeing an escape of some of these mealybug species in now a, to them, a pesticide lessened environment. [00:05:10] Craig Macmillan: speaking of biological control, so this is an invasive pest, came from outside the U. S. That's the kinda the classical biological control problem. the pest comes, but its natural enemies don't come with it. there are some natural enemies of vine mealybug in the United States. [00:05:24] Kent Daane: Yes, they are, and I don't want to go too deep in the weeds on this, but this is new, very exciting to me. I did an importation program, that's a classic biocontrol program, where we go to the pests, origin, we look for natural enemies and we bring those back to the United States. Growers can't do that. It's got to go into quarantine. We have to study those natural enemies. Sometimes for years to make sure that they're not going to do any harm. The classic example people think about is I've got a problem with rats. And so I bring in a weasel, the weasel kills all the rats, and then starts going after my chickens. We don't do that anymore. Classic biocontrol is now much more modern. We've got all kinds of protective barriers against making a mistake. In fact, I think that we've gone a little bit too far. I think we're overly cautious. Bringing this back to the Vine melaybug, I imported material from Europe, from Israel, from Egypt, and from South Africa. We were finding mostly the same species in most of these different regions. The two most important species at that time were called Anagyrus pseudococci, which is The well known parasitoid that you can purchase from insectaries. The other one is Coxydoxinoides peregrinus, no common name on these insects. Both are established in California. When I did this work, we noticed a difference between the anagyrus near species Pseudococci that we were getting in Sicily and Spain with the material that we were getting that had already been established from Israel and what we're finding in northern Italy. Working with a taxonomist, Sergei Trapitsin he found some significant differences between these. And later on after both were imported in the United States determined that these were two species, one still Anagyrus pseudocoxi and one Anagyrus vladimiri. So sometimes you'll see insectaries selling Anagyrus vladimiri and you think, Oh, I want that. That's different. It is different, but both are established in California. We're actually going to do a followup study. now in collaboration with this international group to find out what we've got in California. I suspect we've got both. Now, why is this exciting? Because at the time we were doing this work, we felt like the parasites were different, and we felt that these different groups that we were importing, maybe one had co evolved with the citrus mealybug, And the other with the vine mealybug. And we had already done some work with the vine mealybug, molecular work, looking at its relationship to each other around the world. and their names are, scientific names would be citrus mealybug, planococcus citri. Vine mealybug, we knew as planococcus ficus, which means, Ficus tree, fig tree. And we were showing that this group was, they had an outlier and ours was the outlier. And then working with this international group, they said, look, back in the fifties, there was a planococcus vitis. And I think what you've got, what we've got on vines, is the vine mealybug. But not in Iran and Iraq at that time. And, and maybe in that Mediterranean region Israel, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Turkey the Mesopotamian region, I think is what it is. Maybe there are some parasites there that we didn't have. Certainly, my colleague in Egypt and more parasites than we were finding in Europe. We just weren't able to get them all to establish in colony in quarantine. So it opens up the window that, that maybe there's something still out there. At this point in time, I say in all the countries where vine mealybug is reported as a problem, that's most of Europe Mexico, South America South Africa. We have the best of those parasites. We just want to delve deeper into what are we seeing in Turkey? How does that match up with what we know is in Egypt? And I do have colleagues in Iran. It's just harder for me to go there. [00:10:09] Craig Macmillan: right, of course. so this makes me think, is it possible that we have mixed populations of these mealybugs in California on the same plant, so it's different areas? [00:10:17] Kent Daane: So that's the project we're working on with this international group. What we decided to do in a three part approach is to first find out what everyone's got. The assumption is that in South America, In the United States, North America, we have got single invasion events. Our guess is that it arrived in the U S in Coachella and Mexico at the same time. We're pretty sure that the population they have in Peru is from California Yeah, they were bringing nursery wood in and lo and behold, they found vine mealybug. We went down to look at a nomatode problem to be honest with some UC California researchers. And we found that they had some mite problems at the same mites that we've got in North American California. So they were probably not being very cautious in what they were importing. So we're assuming that South America's got this California group which came from Israel. We know Israel and Egypt have something very similar, but it's different than most of Europe. South Africa is similar to Portugal and Spain, which makes sense with the trade routes that were going on in the 1960s. What we're guessing is that The European groups, there probably are, there's reported failures of vine mealybug mating disruption in some European areas. And we think that probably is this other mealybug that is probably in Turkey. So it's all very exciting to me, kind of delving deeper into the weeds on this. But the first part of this international group, again, a great group of people, Europe, South America our first part is what do we all have? Our second part is what we're doing a grower survey that we actually sent to the vineyard team and they spread out to some growers as well. What are, what are growers using to control the mealybug? Because maybe with some of the, we find out what it is and maybe growers are working harder to control our vine mealybug than say that the fig millebug which appears to be what they've got in most of Europe. Remember when I started the foreign exploration when I was in Spain growers would tell me yeah we've got the vine millebug but it really is not much of a pest. Citrus millebug on vines is more of a pest. Well they probably have that fig mealybug but [00:13:01] Craig Macmillan: Ah, [00:13:01] Kent Daane: You know, taxonomically, it looked to us like the vine mealybug.And I hope I'm not throwing all these things out and it's confusing. So, second part, that is, the survey. What do you have and what are you using to control it? And if it matches up that, yeah, what we've got is the one that's more difficult, that fills in a lot of boxes. Third and fourth part are now looking at the natural controls. What parasites are you getting coming off of this? What parasites are in your region? And how do they respond to the pheromones that we know are out there? So if they're not, if they're responding to both citrus and vine, maybe that's an indication that it's this other group. If they're not responding at all, or weakly, yeah, we've, we've got three or more distinct species. And we can't tell them apart, but maybe the parasites can. [00:13:56] Craig Macmillan: this is kind of a practical question. hoW do you monitor parasitic wasps? They're tiny. They live in refugia. They then come out and plant their eggs in their host. that seems like a really hard thing to do. [00:14:10] Kent Daane: That's an absolute fantastic question. So let's look at that most common parasite, Antigyrus Pseudococci slash Vladimiri. So what we found over the years is that it does a great job on mealybugs that are exposed in the fruit, on the leaves, on the cane. By the end of the season, if you're not putting on a lot of contact chemicals, you're getting greater than 40 percent parasitism. Very easy to see, [00:14:43] Craig Macmillan: Right. [00:14:43] Kent Daane: doesn't do very well against the mealybugs under the bark, because it's got this searching behavior where it's got to get on top of the mealybug, determine how big it is, do I want to put a an egg that's not fertilized in that, which would be a male, and they need smaller mealybugs for that. Do I want to put an egg which is fertilized? In that, that will become a female parasite that needs larger host. [00:15:09] Craig Macmillan: the same insect, the same parasite has the ability to do either. [00:15:13] Kent Daane: Yes. [00:15:15] Craig Macmillan: Wow. [00:15:15] Kent Daane: again, this is really a neat subject and I hope I don't bore the audience too much. But, a lot of these parasites that become important for mealybugs they have this little sac, so you've got your oviduct going to your ovarioles, in the female. And right around the oviduct area, before it splits into the two ovarioles, you've got this little sac called the spermatheca. unlike humans, where the sperm goes in and Seeks out the eggs and fertilizes it. The sperm go in and the female parasite stores them in the spermatheca. And then as the eggs are mature and ready to go down, oviduct and get ready to be oviposited into the mealybug, the female decides to fertilize the egg or not fertilize it. And if it's fertilized, it becomes a female. If it's not fertilized, it becomes a male. And that allows her to determine what the host size is, because the females are bigger than the males. And so she will walk up and down. and size that mealybug and say that this, this mealybug is a good enough size that this is worthy for me to put a fertilized egg in and that will become a female. Or a second in store mealybug, she'll say, this really isn't that good of a mealybug host. So I'm going to put An unfertilized egg, and that will become a male. And that was, going back to this Anagyrus Vladimiri versus Pseudococci, that was the most important difference that we found in this Sicilian and Spanish group of Anagyrus, was that they would oviposit and put females in smaller hosts than the male. earlier parasite which probably evolved on the citrus mealybug. So going back to this question because I do go off on different tangents. How do you sample for these things? So it's really easy to find a mummified mealybug on a leaf. But remember what we're doing. We're spraying now a lot of Movento and we're spraying a lot of the Neonics regardless of its Admire, Platinum, or generic derivative. They're all good materials. and maybe you're putting on an IGR like a plot, again, all good materials, Assail, all good materials. What they tend to do is work really good against the mealy bug, which is exposed on the leaves. Our systemic materials are really good at going out to the leaves. Our contact materials, our IGRs, the neonics, that are contacts kill the mealybug that's exposed. All of these materials do less of a good job with the mealybug underneath the bark. we're not getting a true indication of what these parasites can do because we're killing the host that's the best location for them to attack. So that means to really find out what's going on, you got to strip bark oftentimes. So now you're looking at parasitism in that region of the vine that the parasite doesn't like to be. Now, if we add to this, this other good parasite, which is the coccidoxoenoides peregrinus, we really liked to bring this in because it attacks the very, very small stages of the mealybug, the first and the second instar. It's sometimes a small third, but really it's focused on the second instar. [00:19:05] Craig Macmillan: Got it. [00:19:06] Kent Daane: It's in California. You can find it, but it's really hard to find out what impact it's got because it will parasitize the mealybug and will cause the parasitized mealybug to die. to feel sick and to seek out some area for protection because the anagyrus if you see that mealybug parasitized on the leaf causes that mealybug to kind of glue itself down to the leaf You have to flip that thing to get it off the leaf. A mummy is a dead mealybug which sticks to the leaf. The coccydox anoides causes the mealybug to find a place of protection because it doesn't stick it to the leaf. So it often times goes to the trunk, or goes to the stem, and eventually falls off the vine, and will pupate down into the ground. And so to sample for that one, you have to collect them as first or second instars live, bring them back to the insectary, and rear them out to the parasite, which is just really a lot of work hard to do. so these things are far more difficult to do. Sample four, then going out and counting, you know, aphid parasites, which are just out there as little brown mummified aphids. [00:20:29] Craig Macmillan: it sounds like this would play a role in my timing of my insecticide applications, whether it's Spirotetramat or Neonic or One of the programs that I think is common is to have spirotetramat on top and have a myothiamethoxam soil applied. Does that sound right? [00:20:47] Kent Daane: Yeah, that sounds right. I mean, they're both good products and they're doing what they're supposed to do. they're killing the mealybug. And when the timing is right, they're getting out there before the mealybug. So as the mealybug is going out towards the leaves. You know, they're probably doing a better job than the parasite will do on its own. Now, if you are an organic grower and you can't use those materials, then timing does become a little bit more critical because you're putting on, oftentimes, organic materials every 10 to 14 days because they've got a shorter residual. So on those you may want to, you know, work your timing around to avoid to give it a window of opportunity some of these natural enemies. There you're looking on the leaf, you're looking for mummified mealybugs. You know, are, do I have some of these good natural enemies in the field? You're looking for the mealybug destroyer, or one of the other beetles. Green lancelings are also doing a pretty good job. So you're monitoring those. And maybe you're deciding, I've got a lot of good activity maybe I should wait to put on pyganic or one of the other materials, which is broad spectrum give the other parasites a chance, a cycle, to see what their impact's going to be on that millibug population. Or maybe you're going to leave every fifth row unsprayed to let the parasites come back in and then hit that row later. So you've got a chance for those natural enemies to move the just sprayed vines. [00:22:22] Craig Macmillan: That was going to be my next question is what is the refugee situation for these parasites? Do they come into the vineyard, do their thing and then leave? Do they come in when there is host and then they hang out in the vineyard for the rest of the season? Do we know? I'm just thinking about ways that I can preserve, conserve those parasites as much as possible so that they're there when I need them. [00:22:45] Kent Daane: That's a great question, Craig. And let's break this apart into two different areas. Let's talk about First, the generalist predators that I just mentioned, the green lacewings, a good mealybug predator against the smaller mealybug stages. A lot of the things we do to enhance natural enemies will enhance generalist predators. So that's where your cover crops come in. That's where your pollen and nectar come in. You'll increase generalist predators. Ladybird beetles, green lacewings, minute pyre bugs, those can all attack and kill. That same group of cover cropping that brings in the gentleness predator may have little impact on the specialized parasitoids. Things like the anagyrus and the coccidocsinoides, what they want is the mealybugs. And not all mealybugs will do. They really want the mealybugs that are better hosts for them. So, they tend to get everything they need out of that pest population. They can host feed. They can stick their ovipositor into a mealybug, turn around and feed on some of that exudate, some of what's being bled. The mealybug creates honeydew. That honeydew, instead of trying to plant a cover crop for honeydew, that honeydew serves as a food to increase the longevity of those parasitoids. And as the mealybug density goes down, the parasite numbers should go down as well. Now there are different kinds of food sprays that we hope to look at that oftentimes do help increase both generalists and perhaps specialist natural enemies. [00:24:46] Craig Macmillan: Hm. [00:24:46] Kent Daane: The number one thing you do to to enhance beneficial insect numbers is to watch the broad spectrum insecticide sprays or to time them where you're not spraying, you know, all 100 acres at the same time, but you're leaving a refugia so they can move back in. [00:25:08] Craig Macmillan: Interesting. So, I might be looking at something and saying, okay, I am going to have to take some action here. I'm hitting an action threshold but not pull the trigger on the whole thing. leave one area for a little bit, and then can you come back and treat that later, so that you're preserving some of these folks, and then they can come back on the other side, and find a balance between the chemical and the biological. Mm [00:25:31] Kent Daane: Right. A balance, a delay might just be 10 days, might be 20 days. We don't want to miss our spray window, but remember, Most of the natural enemies are winged as adults, whereas the female mealybug is never winged. Fairly slow, fairly thestle. So that allows for those beneficials to come back in. And if you're a large grower this just happens over over the course because you can't spray 100 acres in a day. [00:26:07] Craig Macmillan: Right. Right. Fascinating. Are growers starting to adopt, in your experience with the folks that you work with, are growers starting to adopt these kinds of timings and techniques and methods? [00:26:19] Kent Daane: I think growers are constantly adopting, improving, changing one of the common misconceptions when I talk to students or people who just don't don't know how to farm or farmers is that farmers really don't want to spray. Spraying costs money. it is an added expenditure, added time, added worry. So they'd much rather, you know, go back 50 years when we didn't have all these invasive insects from Vine mealybug to Virginia Creeper growers are always seeking out how to improve the insecticide materials they've got, how to reduce the insecticide applications they have to make. And that does include natural enemies, mating disruption. What it comes down to is just costs. So oftentimes there's a trade off. If you're going to use mating disruption, you may not be doing three applications of an insecticide for vine mealybug. Maybe it's one insecticide plus vine mealybug mating disruption. If you're organic and you're releasing beneficial insects and spraying every other week. Maybe you don't have the cost for mating disruption. So these are all decisions that individual growers have to make. Obviously we've got some growers in some regions can spend 300 per acre for mealybug control. Other growers simply cannot do that because of the value of, their product at the very end. [00:28:03] Craig Macmillan: Right. This is kind of a natural lead in to something I wanted to touch on, and that is the Virginia Creeper leafhopper that's found on the North Coast. That also an invasive, correct? Came in from outside. [00:28:15] Kent Daane: It is invasive to some extent. It is not invasive like the vine mealybug is from. The Mediterranean region Virginia creeper most likely is, is North American. But yes, it was never really a California leafhopper pest. It was, no England, Canada. Pest that then went into Washington, then went into Oregon, that then came into California. interestingly, the, leafhopper that I worked on for so many years the variegated grape leafhopper probably North American, probably had a different avenue, probably came up from the south, from Mexico, Texas, to Arizona, to California. So Some of our invasives are close relatives. [00:29:07] Craig Macmillan: Interesting. what's the difference in damage that's caused by the Virginia creep leaf hopper and the the variegated leaf hopper. [00:29:17] Kent Daane: So they're, they're very similar. I think that the grape leafhopper is the one we've been dealing with for the longest time and has been relatively mild compared to the other two. The variegated grape leafhopper When it first came into the San Joaquin Valley, it could defoliate vines. It had three to four generations per year. [00:29:42] Craig Macmillan: Oh, wow. [00:29:43] Kent Daane: It seemed to be much more damaging than the grape leafhopper. Virginia creeper leafhopper, now in northern California, making its way south. So it's gotten to the middle of the state. It's in Napa, Sonoma, Sacramento. I have not seen it. Heard it reported in the Fresno area. Oh, it has been reported in Fresno. But I'm not saying it causes much damage here. We really don't get many leaf hopper reports for damage here, except for organic growers. And that's because all the sprays for vine mealybug. Most of those vine mealybug sprays are very good against the leaf hoppers. Where I have seen it as a pest. It's been mostly in wine grapes. Mostly in the cooler regions of the state. Mostly controlled by conventional insecticides. There are programs organic materials registered for Virginia creeper that I think have done a fairly good job. But it, it does get out of hand. And I think for all these leaf hoppers with organic materials, what happens is that The organic products tend to not work well , against the leaf operant in the egg stage or the leaf operant in the adult stage. So timing is very important. You want to get those materials on. when egg hatch is nearly complete and when you've got mostly first and second instars out there. That's because most of our organic products tend to impact these pests by either being a desiccant like the soaps that dry it out or a suffocant like the oils that clog the spiracles. And so the the, adults just fly away from that tractor rig as it's coming down. The eggs are protected inside the leaf itself, in their little clusters for the Virginia Creeper. And the larger insects can, they're just more mobile. So it's hard to kill them. So timing becomes relatively critical with these insects. I've not worked directly with Virginia creeper other than hosting Houston Wilson did his graduate work in my lab and really focused on, on the parasites of this insect. Lucia Varela, now retired, did focus on looking at the different insecticides and she's got a nice summary article which is on Monica Cooper's website. It talks about the different insecticides, U C cooperative extension Napa County. And she's got a website that goes into materials for organic growers for Virginia creeper leaf hopper. I think that's where I saw. that information posted. And what Houston did was he just looked at and tried to improve the Enneagrus. So we get those two confused. The Lilybug parasite is Anagyrus. The Leafhopper parasite is Enneagrus. The two names sound pretty similar, but one is an inserted family and one is a Mimerit. Or a fairy fly, fairy winged fly. They're some of the smallest insects known. So, [00:33:03] Craig Macmillan: Wow. So, we are continuing to look at these new parasites, how they're performing, we're learning a lot more about them, and we're learning a lot more about timing of different kinds of sprays around their life cycle. [00:33:17] Kent Daane: Yeah, what Houston was trying to do was to understand why parasitism against the Virginia creeper leafhopper was against all the leafhoppers. Why parasitism was relatively low. So I was working with Danny Gonzales and Sergei Tripitsin, And just mentioning to the taxonomist, Sergei, that it seemed like there were differences amongst these Enneagris samples that we were releasing. And I had happened to save all of the material that had died. So I sent that to Sergei, and Sergei looked at these things closely and then said, look, we've got a complex of parasites. And he named Enneagris erythronureae. After the species that was most commonly attacking variegated grape leafhopper, which is Erythronere variabilis. There was another one, and he called a Negris tryptocova, which was named after his wife's father's family and he said that was the better looking one of the group. And there was one that just didn't do that much. And he named that after me, a Negris Dana. And so that one we thought was the one attacking the western grape leaf hopper most commonly. And it was being found more commonly in the riparian zone. So that's 20 years ago, fast forward to our new invasive leaf hopper, the Virginia creeper leaf hopper, which is again coming down from Canada to Washington to Oregon to California. Well, it ends up that the Enneagris deni is very important attacking that leaf hopper. So Houston was working out the relationship of these three parasites against these three leaf hoppers and trying to understand if he could manipulate their numbers to improve biocontrol. He looked at hedgerows, he looked at augmentative releases or inoculative releases, and we're still curious to see if that can't be improved even. [00:35:30] Craig Macmillan: That's fantastic. Another topic that I wanted to touch on, because it's a really cool idea, and I think we'll have applications across a lot of things eventually, and that is area wide pest management strategies. And I know that you've done a lot of work in this area from the beginning, really, of kind of the concept. What is an area wide pest management strategy? Management program. What does it look like? What can it what is its goal? How does it operate? What kind of success we've seen so far? [00:35:59] Kent Daane: Yeah, that's a fantastic question. It's a topic I'm really excited about and let's think about it when we think about the European grapevine model. that was another invasive insect, It was found in California, it was found in Chile around the same time. So you've got this invasive insect, and the state of California deemed this important enough to have an eradication program. [00:36:22] Craig Macmillan: Oh and just real quick. What kind of damage does grapevine moth do? [00:36:26] Kent Daane: So the European Greenvine Moth it'll feed on the vine, but it gets in the fruit clusters. think of the omnivorous leaf roller One of those, one of our tortricid pests that can really cause damage to the grape a number of generations per year, a lot of different possibilities where it might come from in terms of a host plant material. So it can be very problematic. It would require a spray every single year, an additional spray for a tortricid pest, if it were to establish. [00:37:00] Craig Macmillan: one the big issue here is that it attacks the berries directly [00:37:03] Kent Daane: absolutely. [00:37:04] Craig Macmillan: Okay. So that's a, that's a serious problem. [00:37:07] Kent Daane: No, no, the, it, it causes mold and rot and everything else once it gets in there. So, you know, two or three doesn't seem like a lot. You just think, well, berry can go to crush, but that berry will get all kinds of bunch rot. not a good fruit. So when you think about the eradication program, where there was monitoring everywhere in the state. When you think about the eradication program, where when they found this pest through pheromone traps, and then they did a ground search to find out where it was. And then there was a coordinated investigation. Effort to spray the right materials, to use mating disruption, to go after it in all of the adjoining areas. those eradication programs are very intense. Area wide control programs. So, let's think about Vine mealybug, which is now in most vineyards. We're still approaching this on an individual grower basis. We might have one grower using mating disruption, because they're going to go organic, and a next door neighbor doing nothing. There's going to be constant movement of that pest into that grower's. field We might have two growers, one using Movento every other year, and another using Platinum every other year. Those males are going back and forth between those vineyards, sharing whatever genetic resistance that they're developing. And so really, if those growers are switching, one's using Movento, one's using Platinum that insect is moving between those vineyards all the time. And it's not a resistance management program, or you might have a small five acre grower deciding to put out mating disruption. Mating disruption works better blanketing the whole area. So an area wide program, and then you bring into it the idea of roguing leaf roll diseased vines. there are two things I just mentioned in this last 30 seconds that are so important for area wide management of mealybug and leaf roll that are the killers to those programs. The first is mating disruption still costs more money than a pesticide application. It's a fantastic tool. It is a tool that works better the lower and lower the mealybug density gets. So you use insecticides to really drop the mealybug population down, but there gets to be a point where the mealybugs are now on the bark. There are little populations here and there, and we know the insecticides are never 100 percent. Mating disruption works better. The lower the milli buck density is. [00:40:05] Craig Macmillan: Got it. [00:40:06] Kent Daane: But there's a cost to it. So we start with insecticides. The next part is the rowing of the infected vines. That's very important on an area wide basis because if you're planting, you've had, vineyard is old, it's not productive, it's had leaf roll. You pull it out, but it's right next to a block that's got 80 percent infected vines. You're always going to have new infections showing up over and over and over again. Unless that grower next to you is just doing this bang up job of applying insecticides all the time to keep mealybugs from going into your vineyard. you can make area wide control work for the pathogen. and the pest. But in the best world, let's say you're in control of a thousand acres, pull out every vineyard that's infected and replant and then pull out every new infection in it. And people just can't afford this. [00:41:06] Craig Macmillan: Right. [00:41:07] Kent Daane: if you're managing 200, 300 acres and Your vineyard with leaf roll that's at 30 percent is still profitable. it's hard to pull out those 30%. It's just hard to do. I get it. But something that I wish we could get, you know, government subsidy for to, to have them help us come in, pull out the infected vines, start clean again. But it does work. It's worked in South Africa. It's worked in New Zealand. It's worked in Napa. It just comes at a cost that may be prohibitive in some regions, in some areas. So the best we can do is to manage mealybug and the disease incidence in an area wide manner. [00:41:52] Craig Macmillan: if I remember correctly, I mean, the work has been done now that, demonstrates roguing is your best strategy overall long term, but it's expensive short term. and that is the issue. That's the tricky bit. [00:42:06] Kent Daane: There are two tricky bits to it. The first tricky bit is the expense you just talked about. The second tricky bit is that in most of the regions where we know it's worked They have not been dealing, perhaps, with our vine mealybug. They've been dealing with the grape mealybug, long tail mealybug, obscure mealybug. we've got I think the worst mealybug. And maybe that mealybug is just better at surviving on root remnants. You know, you hear all the time from growers, I r I've been removing 10 percent of my vineyard every single year for five years. And when I looked at The south African data, they removed 20%. Second year, 5%. Third year, 3%. Fourth year, 1%. And after that, it was always 1%. [00:42:54] Craig Macmillan: last piece of this puzzle in my mind is you have to get your neighbors to cooperate. That's the area wide bit. You have to get people to get on the same page in terms of what they're doing. And it sounds to me like they don't necessarily have to be doing exactly the same thing. They just have to be sensitive to what somebody else wants to do. Does that sound right? [00:43:15] Kent Daane: There are areas where it has worked well. It can work in the Central Coast. It can work in Lodi. We may not see, you know, eradication of diseased vines. We may not see a reduction of vine mealybug to a point where we can treat every other year. We might be treating every single year. for this, but we can improve what we're doing through communication right now. In the central Valley, we're working with a great group of growers where we're just mapping out the vine mealybug and we're sharing with the growers where the melaybug populations are. It's their decision. What? What to use, what to do for control. It's their decision. Can they rogue or not rogue? But what we're trying to do is to help foster communication amongst the different growers that are neighbors, because we're a third party, which I think helps a little bit. it would be fantastic if we could have someone hired as a scout or PCA, where we work with. PCAs in the region and everyone shares data. We're trying a new computer program this year, which we at the end of the season, we'll launch with our collaborating growers where they can log on in real time. and see what the trap counts are as we count those trap counts. And that will help them make a decision, we hope, on what to do in terms of control measures. But again, the best thing might be that we're opening up communication, just as the Vineyard team is doing through podcasts, through field days, through the website. [00:44:55] Craig Macmillan: Well, let's hope. And I, and there's a number of other organizations too. the, the group in Lodi has done a fantastic job from what I understand. Fostering communication and sharing information. like you said, I think that's probably one of our, our, our best hopes. Is working collaboratively as an industry and getting communication between the experts like PCAs and the extension community. . [00:45:15] Kent Daane: And of course, anyone can always reach out to me with questions as well. [00:45:18] Craig Macmillan: Fantastic. And we'll put your information in the show notes. I want to thank you for being on the podcast. fantastic. Very helpful and very, very exciting. I think I was feeling a little more dismal about this whole topic coming into this interview than I am now. I think there's maybe more potential than I was kind of giving credit. I, you know, I come from a time back in the 90s when Vine Mealybugs showed up in the Central Coast. And it was a lot of gnashing of teeth and pulling of hair, and we did not know what to do, and the damage was insane. I mean, I saw stuff that was just blood curdling, and I think we've come a long way. We've come a long way, and that's from the efforts of folks like you, so I really appreciate it. I want to thank our guest, Kent Daane. He is a Cooperative Extension Specialist with the University of California, Berkeley. he works primarily out of the Kearney Ag Research Extension Center. And, thanks so much for being on the podcast. This is great. [00:46:10] Kent Daane: Thank you very much. Enjoy the harvest time coming up.   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

To celebrate California Wine Month, we're highlighting winners of the California Green Medal Award. Allison Jordan, Executive Director at the California Sustainable Winegrowing Alliance shares the sustainable practices unique to each of this year's winners. From farm hiking trails open to the community to a bio fuel powered fleet, you'll be inspired by these stories. Make sure you listen to the end. Our host Craig works at Niner Wine Estates, the 2023 Green Medal Business Award Winner. He has great insights into the benefits of applying for the Green Medal that extend beyond earning the award. I have enjoyed working with the Green Medal on the steering committee and as a judge.  If you are a California vineyard or winery, I encourage you to visit greenmedal.org to apply. Applications open in November of 2024. Resources:         206: The Best Newsletter You Can Send | Marketing Tip Monday 231: Stacking Regenerative Practices to Create a Healthy Vineyard 2024 Green Medal Award Winners Allison Jordan Green Medal Awards Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript  [00:00:06] Beth Vukmanic: To celebrate California wine month. We're highlighting winners of the California green metal award. [00:00:11] Welcome to sustainable wine growing with the vineyard team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic executive director at vineyard team. Since 1994, we've brought you the latest science-based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both in-field and online education, so that you can grow your business. Please raise a glass with us as we cheers to 30 years. [00:00:36] In today's podcast Craig Macmillan, critical resource manager at Niner wine estates with long time sip certified vineyard and the first ever sip certified winery. Speaks with. Alison Jordan executive director at the California sustainable wine growing Alliance. She shares the sustainable practices, unique to each of this year's green metal winners. From farm hiking trails, open to the community, to a biofuel powered fleet. You'll be inspired by these stories. And make sure you listen to the end. [00:01:07] Our host Craig works at Niner wine estates winner of the 2023 business award. He has some great insights into the benefits of applying for the green metal that extend beyond earning the achievement. [00:01:19] I personally have had the pleasure of serving on the green metal steering committee. And as a judge, if you're a California vineyard or winery, I encourage you to visit green metal.org to apply applications open in November of 2024. [00:01:34] Do you want access to the latest viticulture research and technology from the world's top experts, then you won't want to miss the premiere Winegrowing event of the year, the sustainable ag expo. Enjoy the perfect blend of in-person and online learning. Speak directly with national experts, earn over 20 hours of continuing education and explore sustainable ag vendors. It all takes place November 11th through 13th, 2024 in San Luis Obispo, California. As a listener to this podcast, take $50 off of your ticket. When you use code podcast 24 at checkout. Get yours today at sustainableagexpo.org. Now let's listen in. [00:02:14] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Allison Jordan. She is executive director of a California sustainable wine growing alliance. And today we're going to be talking about the green medal awards. Hey allison, thanks for being on the podcast. [00:02:30] Allison Jordan: Great to be with you. thanks so much for having me. [00:02:32] Craig Macmillan: So let's start with some basics. What is the California sustainable wine growing alliance? And in particular, what is it? What are its goals? And what's it doing to achieve those goals? [00:02:42] Allison Jordan: Well, the California Sustainable Wine Growing Alliance is a partnership that was created by Wine Institute and the California Association of Wine Grape Growers back in 2003 as a nonprofit organization that's all about promoting sustainability from grapes to glass. some of the ways that we do that, especially the whole idea of encouraging adoption of sustainable wine growing practices is also around communicating about it so we can really tell the story about California's leadership in sustainability. [00:03:14] And we do that through education, through outreach, through certification, and also through partnerships. So for instance, the vineyard team is a great partner of ours and us. Fantastic work. Not only in the central coast, but also throughout the state. [00:03:31] Craig Macmillan: Thank you. I know that we've really enjoyed and benefited from our work with you. And also around the Green Medal Awards. what exactly are the Green Medal Awards? how did that come about? What was the purpose of creating the awards? [00:03:45] Allison Jordan: So during Down to Earth Month each April, which is a chance to really highlight California wine community sustainability leadership we also celebrate the California Green Medal. The full name of the awards is the California Green Medal Sustainable Wine Growing Leadership Awards. And it's our way of recognizing industry leaders. [00:04:06] So those who wineries and vineyards that are really using advanced sustainability practices. They're innovating and they're sharing that information with their peers. It really was a way for all of the different California sustainability programs to come together. [00:04:21] We're all really about elevating sustainability. And so we came together with not only the Sustainable Wine Growing Alliance, which of course is this partnership with CAWG and with Wine Institute, but also with the Vineyard Team and Lodi Wine Grape Commission. Napa Valley Vintners and Napa Green, and also the Sonoma County Wine Growers, so that we could all be part of celebrating and shining a spotlight on these leaders. [00:04:46] Craig Macmillan: I think that's one of the really great things about this. And my understanding is that you actually have representatives from different organizations that are part of the review committee for the applications and also part of the cross promotion. Is that right? [00:04:57] Allison Jordan: That's right. Yeah, so all of those organizations are involved and participate in the judging panel. We also have experts from universities, the wine education field some representatives from retailers and, and some somellier have. Participated in the past. So we try to have that really well rounded group that can be reviewing the applications from wineries and vineyards around the state. [00:05:20] Craig Macmillan: that's really fantastic that you have expertise from around different fields and different areas. I think that gives it a lot of weight and a lot of legitimacy. So let's get to the purpose of all this. So who are the 2024 green medal award winners and what are some of the sustainable practices that they employed that garnered them this recognition? [00:05:39] Allison Jordan: Sure. I'll just run down the list. So every year we give four green medals and they are in the categories of leader. So sort of the overall. Embracing sustainability also in the areas of environment, community, and business. And this again helps us really share in lots of different ways what sustainability is all about. [00:05:58] So for the Leader Award this year, which again is all around that excelling in all three areas of sustainability, being environmentally sound, socially equitable, economically viable. It goes to the Lang Twins family winery and vineyards. They're based in San Joaquin County, just north of Lodi, and have been very involved in sustainability, both in the Lodi region, but statewide for, for many, many years. [00:06:22] Really, since the inception of our programs. And if you think back further, because it's a generational business they've been embracing sustainability since the early seventies. just some of the examples of things that they've done. They've done a lot around habitat restoration projects. I've actually had the chance to just go in and do a walking tour just a couple of weeks ago, and it's just impressive how they've really repaired that riparian habitat, working with local youth and providing hands on environmental stewardship education for them. [00:06:53] But they also started off as a family of growers and built a state of the art winery. Just within the last decade or so and they really included a lot of energy efficient design and solar power technology. So just a really great example. thinking back some of the other past winners in the leader category are Treasury Americas, Wente Family Estates, O'Neill, Vintners and Distillers, and J. Lohr Vineyards and Wines. So some really great examples of leaders in our industry. [00:07:25] The next category would be community. of course, this is all around what vineyards or wineries do to enhance relationships, not only with their employees, but also with the broader community and with their neighbors. [00:07:39] And this year it goes to Cooper Garrod vineyards at Garrod farms, which is a beautiful vineyard and winery, and also a horse farm in the Santa Cruz mountains. really I've known. Doris and Bill for years, Bill was a former chair of the California Sustainable Wine Growing Alliance, and they just give their whole heart to their community. [00:08:00] They have done things like pioneering the FireWise Community Initiative. They actively participate in benefits for their schools, for mental health. They participate in the Chambers of Commerce and the industry groups. And also to foundations. they really invite the community in so they can use their farm's hiking trails and participate in winemaker walks and all kinds of really fun ways to learn about sustainability. [00:08:26] And just thinking back again on some of the past winners in this category, we had Cake Bread Cellars, McManus Family Vineyards, and Smith Family Wines. And there are two more. Do you want me to take a breath or do you want me to keep going? [00:08:40] Craig Macmillan: no. Keep going. This is great. Yeah. [00:08:42] Allison Jordan: All right. So the third category is the environment. Something that I think people think of a lot when they think about sustainability. [00:08:50] there are those vineyards and wineries that are really maximizing environmental benefits. And this year it goes to Gloria Ferrer in the Sonoma region of Carneros. they use regenerative organic farming practice is something we're hearing a lot about. Regenerative is, is the new buzzword in the world of sustainability. [00:09:06] they're introducing biodiverse cover crops implementing high intensity sheep grazing. They create biochar and really thinking a lot about how do you build healthy soils and minimize your overall environmental impact. They've also established wildlife habitat with things like hedgerows and pollinator friendly areas and nesting sites. So they're really attracting that wildlife into their property and fostering biodiversity. [00:09:33] And I can think of some really great past winners too. Tobless Creek, Trefethen, Scheid Family Wines, and also Halter Ranch Vineyards. [00:09:41] So again, some stellar examples of environmental stewardship. [00:09:45] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. Very heady. [00:09:46] Allison Jordan: yeah, exactly, exactly. And we have the Business Award as the final category. And this is given to the Vineyard or winery that best demonstrates smart business practices. So things like looking for those efficiencies and related cost savings and innovation. [00:10:05] And this year's winner for that category is Vino Farms. They are a vineyard management company based in Lodi, but they farm all over the state and they've used all kinds of different advanced technology, for instance, for water use efficiency, they've used Tule towers and soil moisture probes and ceres imagery. [00:10:27] And the idea is to really understand water needs to prevent overwatering and to make sure they have uniform water distribution. And, of course, this can lead to substantial cost savings in addition to saving water. They've also done things like releasing beneficial insects via drones. To reduce the need for pesticide applications. [00:10:46] And of course, again, the associated costs with that. And then they've also done a lot to embrace renewable energy. So they transitioned all of their trucks and tractors to biofuel since 2010. So going way back They use solar panels in their vineyards to power ranch shops and also water pumps. [00:11:06] And some of the other examples of this category winners are Niner Wine Estates, Jackson Family Wines and Monterey Pacific. So some really good examples of both vineyards and wineries that have done some amazing work that are really driving that innovation. [00:11:23] Craig Macmillan: Did you say this is the 10th year? Is that right? [00:11:25] Allison Jordan: It's right. It's the 10th year. So we've now had close to 40 recipients of the Green Medals. We've had a couple of that have won multiple years Tablas Creek being one of them, Trinchero Family Winery being one. So when you look at the full picture, it's probably around 36 different recipients of the award. [00:11:43] And if you visit greenmedal. org, you can see all of the current and past winners and some video highlights of the winners. And just, it's a great way to learn really delve into what does sustainable wine growing mean on the ground. [00:11:56] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, it's, it's another way of having that kind of farmer to farmer, winery to winery contact to see what people are doing and, and how they've made it work and kind of encourages people to try things for themselves. [00:12:09] Allison Jordan: Exactly. Get some good ideas of things that you might want to talk to them about. And I think that's another key thing about wine growing. Virtually all of our green metal recipients, I feel like are leaders in that they're willing to share that information and participate in field days and workshops and all of the things that all of our organizations do to advance sustainability. [00:12:28] And when you look at it, it's amazing. We're the fourth largest wine producing region in the world. And today we have 85 percent of California wine being made in a certified sustainable winery and 67 percent of the acreage is certified to one of the California programs. So it's really exciting to see that level of adoption. [00:12:47] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, we've come a long way. [00:12:49] Allison Jordan: We really have. [00:12:50] Craig Macmillan: We really have. Thanks to the efforts of folks like you. [00:12:53] Allison Jordan: It's been a pleasure to be working in this field for now over 20 years, which is hard to believe. [00:12:57] Craig Macmillan: I know, I know. Is there one thing that you would tell growers regarding this topic in terms of either applying for awards or how to use what you can find from award winners? [00:13:10] Allison Jordan: Yeah. So I feel like the awards is one example of how you really have to think of all of the costs and benefits of sustainable wine growing. And as you explore specific practices to make sure they make sense for your operation. One of the things that I think comes to those vineyards and wineries that are adopting sustainable wine growing is the ability to share their story and the positive public relations around it. [00:13:35] And we can help amplify that through things like the Green Metal Awards. The green metal.org website has lots of great information about, again, the practices being used by the recipients. But also you can learn how to apply if you're a vintner or grower for the 2025 awards the applications will most likely open up around November. [00:13:55] So keep an eye out then and they tend to be due in January. So We will be getting the word out in lots of different ways through the vineyard team and all of our partners and through the California Sustainable Wine Growing Alliance. But you can also just periodically check out greenmetal. org to see if there's any new information about it. [00:14:14] Craig Macmillan: So we've got greenmiddle. org is a great resource. Where else can people find out more about you and your organization? [00:14:20] Allison Jordan: Our organizational website is sustainablewinegrowing. org. We also have one for, basically for more our, our Interested consumers and retailers and other stakeholders. That's all around certification. And that's California sustainable wine.com. And then the last one I'll mention is, is again, just showing the breadth and depth of all of the different initiatives across the state. [00:14:42] So in honor of 30 years of all of the different sustainable initiatives in the state, we put together a website called californiasustainablewinegrowing. org and it has a retrospective of some of the really key milestones. That all of our respective programs have done. So if you're looking for some of that history of how this idea and this approach has evolved in California, that's a really great place to look. [00:15:09] Craig Macmillan: Cool. Well thanks so much for being on the podcast. This is really great. And I'm really happy that we can support some of these leaders and get some of these messages out there. I think it's really important and it's been the mission of all of these organizations. And so to be able to come together for something like this is really great. [00:15:23] Allison Jordan: Yes. It's one of my favorite things of the year. So looking forward to celebrating the winners. [00:15:28] Craig Macmillan: our guest today has been Allison Jordan. She's executive director of the California sustainable wine growing alliance, and we've been talking about the green metal awards here today. Please, by all means, check out the resources we've talked about and think about applying. So I worked for Niner Wine Esates, so we won the business category. [00:15:45] And what we found as we went about it was, it was a great process internally, to list and think about all the things we've been doing. And what we realized was We were doing a lot of things in a variety of areas and you don't see that you're always focused on whatever the current project is, right? [00:16:07] You're always focused on fixing whatever. And when we stopped and actually kind of meditated on it, it was like, wow, you know, there's a lot that we're doing and a lot that's going on. And then it also helped us identify areas where we thought, Hey, you know, maybe we haven't paid attention to this. [00:16:17] Like maybe we should. And I just think that process, regardless of whether you're a winner or not is really valuable. It's a good exercise for people. [00:16:25] Allison Jordan: Yeah, that's a great, great insight. And I do feel like, you know, certification is a great way to tell, to tell a story. your story, but to add credibility to what you're doing, but you still need those examples. And so taking the time to compile those and to really show what you're doing, what you're exceptional at I think is a really great exercise. [00:16:44] So fantastic point, Craig. [00:16:46] Craig Macmillan: All right. Thanks, Allison. [00:16:47] Allison Jordan: Thanks. [00:16:48] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by San Agro. Westbridge is now San Agro. When the opportunity came to expand their reach and improve the customer's bottom line, they took it. San Agro's commitment to deliver science based solutions for both sustainable crop health And nutrition remains the same. [00:17:11] They offer a full line of plant nutrients, biopesticides, and specialty inputs. Visit san agro. com to learn more, [00:17:20] make sure you check out the show notes for links to all of the 2024 green medal award winners to learn more about Alison and to apply for the 2025 green medal award. You could also listen in to sustainable wine growing podcast episodes. 206, the best newsletter you can send featuring Niner Wine Estates talking about their green medal award and 231 stacking regenerative practices to create a healthy vineyard with a member of the Langtwids family. [00:17:49] If you liked the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts at vineyardteam. org slash podcast, and you can reach us at podcast at vineyardteam. org. Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team. Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

Microbial communities vary widely from plant to plant, even from rootstock to rootstock! Philippe Rolshausen, Professor of Cooperative Extension for Subtropical Horticulture in the Department of Botany and Plant Sciences at the University of California Riverside studies the phytobiome. This includes all organisms associated with the vine including bacteria, fungi, insects, and animals. Learn the impact these communities have on your vineyard from young vine decline under extreme stress to the wine's terrior.  Resources:         78: Biological Control for Grape Vine Trunk Diseases A Method to Detect and Quantify Eutypa lata and Diplodia seriata-Complex DNA in Grapevine Pruning Wounds Endophytic microbial assemblage in grapevine Grapevine pruning strategy affects trunk disease symptoms, wood pathobiome and mycobiome Philippe Rolshausen Phylogenomics of Plant-Associated Botryosphaeriaceae Species Rolshausen Lab Soil Health Playlist Temporal Dynamics of the Sap Microbiome of Grapevine Under High Pierce's Disease Pressure Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:02:07] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Philippe Roshausen. He is Professor of Cooperative Extension at University of California, Riverside. And today we're going to be talking about the soil microbiome. Thanks for being on the podcast, Philippe. [00:02:19] Philippe Rolshausen: Thank you for having me. [00:02:20] Craig Macmillan: Well, when we do these topics, like to start from the very basics. And then we can go very deep from there. What is your definition of the soil microbiome? [00:02:31] Philippe Rolshausen: Well, a microbiome is the collection of microbes. The soil microbiome is the collection of microbes associated with the soil. I have to say we work on the soil microbiome, but we also work on the phytobiome, which is the collection of organisms. associated with the, the, vine, and that can be fungi, bacteria, viruses, even insects. So we are more interested in fungi and bacteria in my lab. And especially those that live inside the vine and how it's connected to the roots and the soil. [00:03:12] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, I'm very interested in that. Just for our listeners, other aspects of the soil microbiome could include things like microarthropods, uh, nematodes, etc. It's a very complex Complicated ecosystem. [00:03:26] Philippe Rolshausen: I and I only focus on one part of it. [00:03:29] Craig Macmillan: The work that I've done with soil microbiome in a very primitive way. We just focused on total bacteria, total biomass, things like that. You just mentioned this and this is a good jumping off point actually. Because plants are an active part of this ecosystem, you will find different soil microbiomes around different crops. What is the soil microbial community like around grapevines in particular? [00:03:50] Philippe Rolshausen: Well compared to, to what is the question. Let's give you an example. I work on citrus and grapes in the same soil environment, you would see differences between a grapevine and the citrus plant just because of the property of the host. Within grapevine, you know. Depending on the variety or the rootstocks, I should say then you would also have different microbial communities associated with the rootstock. And this is like a plant effect because plant recruits their microbes. So, so you have sort of a template of microbial or a core microbiome, which is you would find across a different rootstock or varieties of grapes or even plants. But then. Some are very variety specific or host specific, and so you would tend to see some varietal specificity and specific microbe associated with some of those rootstock operants. [00:04:47] Craig Macmillan: That's news to me. That's fascinating. there is some commonality, but you will find some differences just based on things like rootstock? [00:04:56] Philippe Rolshausen: Yes.   [00:04:57] Craig Macmillan: Oh, that is interesting. We may come back to that. one of the things about your work that I was really intrigued by, which I was unaware of, is the different microorganisms that one might find inside the grapevine, and what roles they play in the functioning of the plant. I mean, I think most of familiar with Our gut microflora. Right, where we know that we have organisms inside us. We have organisms on our skin and all that. I didn't realize that was true for plants as well. Tell me more about that. [00:05:26] Philippe Rolshausen: You can make the parallel between the roots and the gut, actually. Because they have similar functions. Especially with respect to nutrient assimilation Defense against disease, for instance. Now, the gut is inside, the root is outside. Someone made the comment that the plant where there are guts on the outside, just because of that parallel that between the rhizosphere and the gut. there is a connection between what's going on inside the plant and what's going on outside the plant. We are interested to understand what the organisms that live inside the plant. Where they're coming from. in terms of diversity the endosphere, which is the the region of the, the organism living inside the plant, the endosphere is not very diverse. There's only a few of thousand fold less microbe capable of living inside the plant just because it's a more. Stringent environment I work on the xylem a lot and, you know, there's a negative pressure for instance, there are, there's not a lot of food available, for instance. And so microbes have to adapt to those environments, right? And it's not every microbe is capable of doing that. there's only A certain type of microbe that can live inside them. we're interested in those because we work specifically on vascular disease of grapevines, so fungi, bacteria especially. And we try to understand how those pathogens interact with the plant, but also really understand those pathogen within the, context of the microbial community and how those pathogen interact with the microbes living inside the plants. to go back to your question, it's like, where are those pathogen coming from? How did they get there? How do they interact with the plant and how do they interact with the microbes? within those interaction, what would be the, the disease outcome in certain type of interaction. [00:07:35] Craig Macmillan: So what we're talking about is we have these pathogenic organisms Which could be in the form of like grapevine trunk disease Things like that or Peirce's disease. In the case of bacteria and what you're getting at is it that there's other types and populations of microbes that may be antagonistic to the pathogen? [00:07:56] Philippe Rolshausen: Yes. So that was our hypothesis. Traditionally, you know, microbiologists were looking for biological control agent against diseases and they were culturing those. That was the traditional approach. So you take a plant tissue, You put it in the culture media and you see what's growing and then you test if those organism are able to inhibit the growth of your pathogen. That would be the traditional way of doing it. Now, with the metagenomics , the development of those technology, we're able to kind of look, at the entire community of those organisms living inside the plant and using those tools, we could actually select those that have some. That might be antagonistic to certain pathogens. the beauty of this is that you can actually look at the entire community. When you look at a traditional microbial approach, you kind of zoom in on, to those that can grow in culture and those that can grow fast in culture and sort of overpower the other ones. when you use those molecular approaches, you look at the entire community and you can And sort of a broader view of really what's going on and who does what. and so that's the approach that we've been doing to try to identify biological control agents or beneficial organism to plants and to grapes in particular. what we do is we select plants with different phenotypes. So we will select. Plants that, you know, that range from very healthy to poor health. And we're able to build those sort of correlations with organisms that associate specifically with healthy plants and those that associate with sick plants. and from that, once we have identified the organism, we can go back and try to culture it and to reintroduce him in the system to prove that Actually, they are beneficial in some capacity. [00:09:52] Craig Macmillan: does this mean that I could have plant material, and one of those vines would be healthy and one would be weak and showing disease, but they both would have the pathogen, it's just that the other one has the microbial community to help fight it. [00:10:07] Philippe Rolshausen: That's right. [00:10:08] Craig Macmillan: Wow. [00:10:09] Philippe Rolshausen: there's a environmental factor that comes into play as well. because abiotic stresses also so like, you know, drought or heat play a factor into the plant, weaken the plant in some capacity and will change the disease outcome and the interaction between the pathogen and the microbe. There are more layers than, you know, the simple pathogen, microbe. plant interaction There's also the environment in which those components are part of that really plays a big factor. [00:10:43] Craig Macmillan: So, are you finding or pursuing how those abiotic factors can be manipulated? [00:10:50] Philippe Rolshausen: A little bit. I'm really interested in those aspects of, especially in the eras of climate change. plants are going to be subjected to a lot more stress than they used to be. I think we need to understand how this is going to affect the, the microbiome at large and because I'm a pathologist, how this is going to affect disease outcome. we are starting to only scratch the surface of that. I think a lot of people are as well. It's a lot more complicated when you work with. Woody perennial than when you work with an annual plant, because you have the approaches and the logistics are more challenging, I would say. drought is the number one just because it's been on the radar of every grower in California, but so we, you know, we are interested to see how those factors really affect the Have an effect on disease. Yes. [00:11:44] Craig Macmillan: Are you doing that in the laboratory? [00:11:46] Philippe Rolshausen: Well, yes. You have to sort of work in more controlled conditions and sort of dissect it one stress at a time. so it is in more greenhouse conditions or gross chamber conditions where you can, semi controlled environment where you can really control heat or, you know, water or, and see how that affects the microbiome. [00:12:07] Craig Macmillan: I think this is fascinating. can you tell me more about what that actually looks like, like how do you set it up? How are you controlling it? What kind of ranges are you using? I love the details. [00:12:17] Philippe Rolshausen: So we've done experiments mostly with irrigation so far. And we are only starting to tie irrigation to microbiome, but we have done the. How irrigation affects severity of disease and impact on the plant. this is pretty straightforward, you have plants that are fully irrigated that are not on the deficit irrigation, and then you calculate what a deficit irrigation like a 25 percent deficit irrigation look like, a 50 percent deficit irrigation look like, measuring, you know, how much water. How much irrigation you put in on your plants, you inoculate your tree or vine with a pathogen, and you let it incubate for, you know, weeks, because you know, those are slow pathosystems, they take time, and you see how that affects for trunk disease in particular lesion of the wood necrotic lesion, for instance. And then we look at factors on the plant. We measure biomass, for instance, of the roots, the shoots. We look at gas exchange, photosynthesis, and so on and so forth. going down to the microbiome, you know, we would be sampling the tissue, extracting the DNA, and then sequencing, you know, all the microbial community, bacterial and fungal, to see how those communities have changed over time in a well watered versus a deficit irrigated plants. [00:13:49] Craig Macmillan: And is that quantitative analysis, or is it simply the complexity of the diversity of the microbiome [00:13:56] Philippe Rolshausen: it's semi quantitative so let's say, you know, like you're looking at a presence of a specific taxa. It's a relative abundance of the taxa in comparison to the others. So when you see an increase of the taxa. in your community, it's either because it does increase or because the other taxa within that community decreased. So it increases in, in relation to that. So it's not really an absolute measure of abundance. It is a relative measure of abundance, but you could still use it and make some correlation with that. [00:14:34] Craig Macmillan: Can you explain, metagenomics? [00:14:37] Philippe Rolshausen: That's not my field. To be honest with you, but the principle is that you're using primers that are universal primers and that allow you to, so there are. Meaning that you can sequence conserved region. So those primers are aligned with conserved region across several taxonomic groups. Okay, so fungi or bacteria. And then you sequence a length of nucleotide. In our case, it's about 200, 250 nucleotides in length. In between, and this is valuable between those two. Primers, that region is valuable. And so you could start making you can do a micro real fingerprinting and identify which types are, are present, you know, but it's the community of organism. So it's like all the fungal communities or all the bacterial communities. So some primers are better than others for special taxonomy group. So for instance. I work with Dario Cantu at UC Davis, CBT Controlled Neurology. Davis uses field of knowledge, and so he developed primers for group causing grapevine trunk diseases. And so it's mostly what's called the Ascomycota phyla. his primers are mostly focusing on this group of, fungi, but it doesn't give any information on The basidiomycota, which is another group, or the glomerulomycota, which is the mycorrhizae fungi. if you wanted to get information about this group, you would need to get a different set of primers, right? so it's really up to primer that you're using that gets you the right information. and also the database that you're using that gives you the right information because sometimes the database are not curated or they're not accurate, and those are getting better as we're getting more and more knowledge about the taxonomy and, and the biology of those organisms. we're able to make more accurate prediction because we're gaining more knowledge about those organisms. So for instance, there's a lot more information about bacteria than, They are about fungi just because there are not a lot of reference genome for fungi compared to bacteria. so it's a lot more difficult to predict. Sometimes for fungi than it is for bacteria. [00:17:01] Craig Macmillan: But it sounds like that would be coming down the road. [00:17:04] Philippe Rolshausen: Oh yeah, yeah, it's a matter of time. I mean, really, you know, this technology is going so fast, so quickly that, in five years from now, I can't even predict what it's going to look like, [00:17:15] Craig Macmillan: This thought just occurred. your work is obviously, I don't want to say infancy, but it's, it's pretty early work. You know, we're, we're working with tools that are still in development, basically. at this point, would you say that there are certain conditions or practices or manipulations that a grower could use to promote the most beneficial endo, um, microbiome in their plants? [00:17:40] Philippe Rolshausen: In principle, yes, and I believe that this is true. We just don't have the knowledge yet to make recommendations that are solid. There we go. So, when you apply something to your soil, you know, if you're a grower and you apply fertilizers, or this is going to, or even if you if you till your soil or it will have some impact on the soil microbiology. That we know. How that reflects to what's going on inside the plant, we are, we are not there yet. We, we don't have that knowledge yet just because like I've said before, only a few of those organisms move inside the plant. There's always a a gap between you know, what's going on outside the plant and what's going on inside the plant. The inside the plant it's a buffered environment that changes very slowly compared to the root of, a grapevine. what we've done is we've looked at the microbiome of vines that we planted in the field and look at the rhizosphere microbiome, or the, the The macro bill community associated with the root and the macro bill, community associated with the trunk, the graft union, and so forth. And we see right after planting that the microbial communities associated with the root changes really quickly, whereas the the microbiome in the trunk are the graph union. changes very slowly. whatever growers do and cultural practices that they implement in the vineyard will have a limited effect inside the vine or it will take years for this to see the effect. the rhizosphere microbiome drive a lot of, of biological function, you know, they, they, they fix nitrogen metabolize phosphorus detoxify compounds and so on and so forth. So there's a lot of, benefits of, using some cultural practices, beneficial practices and how they affect microbial communities associated with the roots. [00:19:48] Craig Macmillan: We know that for like the pathogenic organisms, like the fungal ones, you know, they come in through wounds, whether that's a grafting or whether that's a pruning, we know that bacteria are introduced through things like piercing sucking insects. Like Leaf Hoppers and Peirce's disease. what is the, pathway for the bacteria and fungi that you find inside of a vine that are not the pathogens? [00:20:10] Philippe Rolshausen: Well, you said it. the pathway is like from inside the vine, it's first of all inherited from the nursery. That's, that's the main pathway. And then. Some of those organisms come from the soil, there's a fraction that comes from the soil and move throughout the plant systemically through the sap, the plant sap. So that's another pathway one of the major pathway. But again, that takes time. Right. And then, you have fewer introduction that comes through, you know, the plant natural openings, stomatas on the leaves, for instance. Right. Or pruning wounds. Some organism when vines are pruned some organism common pruning wounds and are able to colonize down into the vascular system. That's another path. Or introduction through insects. And, you know, OSA is, you know, one of the best example of that being introduced with shop shooters. during feeding So, but I would say those, are minor introduction compared to what's already there when the vine is being planted and secondary to movement you know, sap movement throughout the plant, from the root to the upper part of the plant. [00:21:29] Craig Macmillan: One thing that I saw mentioned is that these variations in The microbiome inside the plant may also have kind of a role in our concept of terroir in terms of how different areas have different characteristics. Is there, something to that idea? [00:21:46] Philippe Rolshausen: the characteristic of wine region or the terroir is not only linked to the soil, the variety or the weather condition. . It's also linked to the microbial communities associated with those vines. There has been a study that's very famous that was done 10 years ago at UC Davis that showed that. But it's mostly true for organisms that live on the plant surfaces the surface of the berries or the surface of the leaves. It is not so true for organisms that live Inside the vasculature of the vine, just because of what we've talked about, just because it takes time for those communities to change over time. really those the microbial composition of the trunk is, from what we understand today, mostly inherited from what's coming from the nurseries. you know, nurseries have a huge impact in shaping. the microbial communities of the trunk and the vines and you know, can you talk about terroir when it comes to the endosphere of the vine? I don't think so. I think it's, it's a debatable question. I think it's mostly true on epiphytic organism, organism that live on the vine surface just because they are more subject to the environment. Whereas it's not so true for trunk organisms, [00:23:11] Craig Macmillan: , Even though we've been talking about the endophytic side, what's some of the things that the other parts do you were just talking about, we have a different community in the environment that's on the surface of the plant and that, that has a role in, you know, differences between regions in terroir. What impact are those kinds of organisms having on the physiology of the vine that contributes to those differences? [00:23:35] Philippe Rolshausen: Well, that I don't know because, you know, that's not the field I've studied. But they, could influence the fermentation process, but I'm more interested in the one that live inside. Do they have an impact on the wine quality itself, perhaps, you know, that's a question we're interested in. they have an impact on disease. We know that much because they, they affect disease outcome and we've shown that. The question also, I think, from the standpoint of A grape grower or a winemaker is like, well, do they also affect winemaking? we found some bacterium in the sap of grape vines that are present during the fermentation process. So lactobacillus, for instance we found those in the sap of grapes and some bacteria that also that spoil the wine fermentation process will also. Found them in the sap. So the question is like, are those, are those coming from the soil? You know, where are they coming from? We find them in the sap and then can they go inside? Can they be moved to the berry of the grapes and then participate in the fermentation process later on? We don't know the answer to that question. The only thing we know so far is that we can detect them inside the plant stem. And so. What is the impact? That's the question mark, but those are really relevant questions questions we're interested in because, if you can connect the root system to the cluster, and then if you can influence the root system or the microbial community of the root system, then perhaps you can influence the communities living in the cluster and then, you know, Later on, influence your fermentation process. So that's the idea behind it. It will take time to decipher those questions.   [00:25:27] Craig Macmillan: Coming back to the pathology side. we have testing programs for virus in the nursery system. And we have the ability to test for fungal diseases, of course.  Do you see a role for testing for bacteria and fungi other than the pathogens at the nursery stage? [00:25:48] Philippe Rolshausen: I don't think it makes sense. So we've been working with nurseries for several years now. And we are looking for where diseases are coming from prior to vineyard establishment. there's no certified program for fungal diseases and some bacterial disease like Crown gall. there is a fraction of those pathogen that is coming from the nurseries. That's a fact and this is true for California, but this is true for everywhere else in the world. So if you get any. any vines from a nursery, you are going to find fungi causing grapevine trunk disease. And the reason is that there are over a hundred taxa of fungi causing grapevine trunk disease you will likely find one of them and not only that, but they are able to live on a different environment. And so they can live in soil, they can live in water, they can live in plant debris for some of them. And so you cannot get rid of them. I think that growers have to have the mindset that you are not going to be able to have plants free of pathogens causing fungal, grapevine, and trunk disease. That's just not possible. Viruses, you can get rid of them and there is a certified program that works for that. This program would not work for fungi. It's just not realistic. Right. It would be too costly to do it. Right. Right. Right. Right. The question is like, can you live with it, right? Do pathogen causing grapevine trunk disease will cause the vine to die? If that were the case, you would have no grape production in California because virtually all the vines are infected with one fungus causing grapevine trunk disease. that's not the case. It happens, it's called young vine decline, you know, when sometimes growers plant their vine. And the vine dies within five years. But this is because what we understand now is that it's related to the stress factor that I was talking about earlier. there is something going on with the environmental stress that caused the vine to decline after five years. what we've done is to monitor the microbiome and the vine, like I've told before, following planting. And we do capture those pathogen from the nursery to the vineyard. And they are evolving in the vineyard just and we can detect them. But under no stress conditions the vines are doing just fine. So every year a vine will lay out new wood, right? It will grow out some wood. The trunk gets bigger and bigger.  the fight between the trunk disease pathogen and the vine is if the vine can grow wood faster than it loses some to trunk disease, then it's fine, you know, it will be able to survive. Plants and grapes are able to compartmentalize the infection. They lay out walls to compartmentalize infection, and if they do that successfully, you know, Then they will survive now when you have a stress factor that comes into play and here you have to Go back and define well define stress this is where we go back and go back to your question about what stress are we talking about? Heat a drought I think overcropping can be one of them also, when growers take tend to push the vine early on after the establishment to get into production quickly after two years. I view this as a stress factor, so this will influence the microbiome of the vine, living of the microbiome living inside the vine, and as a result, it will influence disease outcome. [00:29:34] Craig Macmillan: I will not look at grapevines the same way. , is there one thing, one takeaway from this conversation that you'd like growers to hear [00:29:44] Philippe Rolshausen: what we're trying to do is to identify cultural practices that are beneficial to production. I think you, you have to look at it from a probiotic or prebiotic. Standpoint, just like we do for humans, you know. when you look at the prebiotics, those are similar to the cultural practices that you implement in vineyards to support the presence of beneficial organisms. that can be, you know, adding compost to your soil or cover cropping because they provide some benefits to the microbes living in the soil, and as a result, the microbe associated with the vine. that's one of them. The probiotic is the addition of single microbes to the system identify which one of those probiotics using the metagenomics approach. And we've made some some stride in, in, in that research, we've identified several organisms that are beneficial to the plant and that are antagonistic to some of the disease. So for instance Pierce's disease we've identified several organism living inside the vines that are antagonistic to PD. And today we are testing those organism in field trials at UC Davis. Because we've demonstrated that they, they work on the greenhouse condition. And now we moved on to field trials. And when we inoculate those beneficial organisms to, or those probiotics to vine, they are able to stimulate the vine health in some capacity, or are being antagonistic to the pathogen in some capacity. And the vines are able to sustain the disease. So, the takeaway message from that is that we are making progress, you know, understanding what those probiotics and prebiotics are for viticulture. [00:31:39] Craig Macmillan: That is great. and I'm really happy, That you're doing this work. It takes time Oh yeah, It takes time. Absolutely, that's, and that's, part of what we do here is we, bring people kind of what the future is looking like and what's possible because if you understand it, then when it does come along, The learning curve is already hopefully down the road a little ways. doing your homework, basically. thank you in your lab. This is really exciting. interesting stuff. Where can people find out more about you? [00:32:09] Philippe Rolshausen: Well, they can go to the University of California, Riverside Botanical and Plant Sciences website. I'm a faculty member, so they will find me there. I have also my personal website. Rolshausen. Slash lab. com. The problem is like the spelling of my name, right? It's not easy to do. [00:32:27] Craig Macmillan: We'll have a link to that show page plus A a number of your recent publications. [00:32:33] Philippe Rolshausen: Yeah, we have several publications about what we've talked about today. We have just had one released about how pruning practices affect also the microbiome and, and disease. So. You know, this is an active area of research. I'm not the only one doing this. Like I've said, I've collaborated with Dario Cantu at UC Davis. And I think he should be mentioned because he's doing some excellent work. And we are a great team working together. As a cooperative extension specialist, I collaborate with others. I collaborate with other faculty. And this is a collaborative work that I'm talking about. I'm not the only one, [00:33:11] Craig Macmillan: there's a network. want to thank our guest, Philippe rolshausen. He is professor of cooperative extension with the university of California riverside and doing some very exciting work. And thanks for being on the podcast, Philippe. [00:33:24] Philippe Rolshausen: Well, that was great. Thank you for having me.   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

[00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: For your wine club members. Is there anything more exciting than delivery day? Unboxing the latest assortment, stir sweet memories of their last visit to the winery and welcomes them to once again, connect with your community. [00:00:13] Welcome to marketing tip Monday with sip certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While, our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry. These twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable. Winegrowing. [00:00:32] Your wine club newsletter prepares your customer for the delights ahead, but does it invite them to relish in the social and environmental virtues of their loyalty? [00:00:42] Next time you send out a newsletter, include a sustainability tidbit. So your brands enthusiasts know that they're sipping sustainably. [00:00:50] You can start by including a brief description of the sustainable practices at your property. For SIP certified brands, we talk about the seven values. Which includes social responsibility, wiper management, safe, pest management. Energy efficiency, habitat business, and always evolving. [00:01:08] A great way to help your customers really see what you're doing to be sustainable is to share your sustainable story. [00:01:15] You can talk about attracting barn owls and releasing beneficial insects to help manage pests naturally. [00:01:22] You can share pictures of the native plants in your cover crop and explain how they benefit pollinators and help improve soil health. [00:01:28] Or you could talk about how you treat winery, process water. So that it can be reused to irrigate the landscape or the vineyard. [00:01:36] Your customers will love learning how your brand conserves and protects natural resources. Tell Your Sustainable Story [00:01:42] If you need more ideas, make sure you check out our newly updated course. We spent over 40 hours writing new sustainable stories, refining our training module and recording and editing video content to bring you an updated online course. [00:01:58] The simple yet powerful free tool will help you tell your own personal sustainable message. Go to the show notes, click on the title. Tell your sustainable story to sign up and start writing yours today.  Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team. Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Apply for SIP Certified Wine Marketing Tips eNewsletter Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic What's your Sustainable Story? Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet  Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member

For thousands of years, wildfires have produced a byproduct known to improve soil and plant health -  biochar. Today, researchers like Kelpie Wilson of Wilson Biochar Associates, Consulting and Manufacturing are learning how to use this form of charcoal for carbon sequestration. Kelpie explains the different stages of combustion, what types of material to include in your burn pile, incorporating biochar into compost, how to use biochar to amend alkaline or acetic soils, and an easy way to remove vineyard wires from your pile. Resources:         56: Conservation Burning and Biochar 106: What? Bury Charcoal in the Vineyard? 167: Use Biochar to Combat Climate Change 215: Biochar Production on a Commercial Scale A Case of Biochar Use in Vineyards – Doug Beck A magnifying glass on biochar strategy: long-term effects on the soil biota of a Tuscan vineyard Biochar Use in Viticulture (US Biochar Initiative webinar link) Deep incorporation of organic amendments into soils of a ‘Calardis Musqué' vineyard: effects on greenhouse gas emissions, vine vigor, and grape quality Long-Term Application of Biochar Mitigates Negative Plant–Soil Feedback by Shaping Arbuscular Mycorrhizal Fungi and Fungal Pathogens Ring of Fire Biochar Kiln The Biochar Handbook: A Practical Guide to Making and Using Bioactivated Charcoal Vineyard Field Trial with Biochar and Compost_ 5th Harvest Report Wilson Biochar Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: For thousands of years, wildfires have produced a by-product known to improve soil and plant health. This is known as bio char. Welcome to sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth organic executive director. And since 1994 vineyard team has brought you the latest science-based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both in-field and online education, so that you can grow your business. Please raise a glass with us as we cheers to 30 years. In today's podcast Craig Macmillan, critical resource manager at Niner wine estates with long time SIP certified vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery. He speaks with Kelpie Wilson of Wilson, biochar associates consulting in manufacturing. Kelpie explains the different stages of combustion. What types of material to include in your burn pile? Incorporating bio char into compost. How to use bio char to amend alkaline or acidic soils and an easy way to remove vineyard wires from your pile. If you love this topic, then you won't want to miss Josiah Hunt's presentation. Practical applications of pyrogenic, organic material, AKA biochar in vineyards. He shares his expertise at the sustainable ag expo taking place November 12th or 13th, 2024 in San Luis Obispo, California. joy, the perfect blend of in-person and online learning. Speak directly with national experts. Earn over 20 hours of continuing education and explore sustainable ag vendors. As a listener to this show, you can take $50 off of your ticket when you use code podcast 24 at checkout. Get yours today@sustainableagexpo.org. Now let's listen in. [00:02:00] Craig Macmillan: Our guest, today is Kelpie Wilson. She's the owner of Wilson Biochar Associates, consulting and manufacturing. And as you may have guessed today, we're going to talk about biochar. Welcome to the podcast, Kelpie. [00:02:08] Kelpie Wilson: Thanks. Thanks for having me. [00:02:11] Craig Macmillan: What exactly is biochar? [00:02:13] Kelpie Wilson: Biochar is just charcoal, but it's special charcoal that, uh, you can use in soil or for purposes of carbon sequestration. That's the official definition from the International Biochar Initiative. [00:02:27] Craig Macmillan: And what does biochar do for us in the vineyard? [00:02:30] Kelpie Wilson: Well, it sequesters carbon, so it's a very stable form of carbon. Uh, Carbon comes in a lot of different forms. I mean, we're all made of carbon, and, you know, carbon can be a diamond, which is really stable, or it can be in a sugar, which, uh, you um, oxidized into CO2 pretty quickly. So uh, in is very, in a very stable form um, it's called aromatic carbon, so it's fused carbon rings. which are the basis of all organic chemistry. biochar is. It's carbon. The thing about biochar and charcoal is that charcoal can have, you know, widely ranging different properties depending on how you make it and what it's made from. And I should add also that uh, in the definition of biochar, For use in soil or for use in carbon sequestration, it needs to be made from organic you know, that is clean. So there are some environmental kind of limits around it that ensure that it's, it's really contributing to the carbon cycle in a positive way and that we're not making Materials that have, you know, toxics in them that could hurt soil. [00:03:41] Craig Macmillan: So we're introducing carbon in a fairly stable people have told me that the carbon that you put into the soil in the form of biochar could be there for thousands of years, but it's obviously available somehow, or it's involved in the soil microbiome somehow, or it's involved in nutrient cycling somehow. What are some of the properties that contribute to that soil health component, [00:04:00] Kelpie Wilson: Well, There's there's quite a few. The interesting thing about biochar is that it's naturally present in soils in many, many parts of the world because of fire, from vegetation fires, forest fires, it's it's supposed to be there in many cases. Uh, Especially here in the, in the in the west coast where we uh, natural fire regime in the forest. And if you look at the most productive soils in the world, for instance, the mollisols in Iowa or the um, in the Eurasian steppe, they have large amounts of biochar Um, In the case of the steppes and the plains, that's because of prairie fires. So you have these tall, tall grasses that would periodically burn off very regularly, like every 10 years or so, and the top would burn off in a flame, and that heat would radiate you know, kind of just above the root zone, the grasses are bunched up really thick, and some air is excluded, so they wouldn't burn all the way to ash, but the heat would turn it to char, the flame would move on, and you'd be left with char, and so this char builds up over years and centuries, and, you know, hundreds of centuries to make this a very black soil and then there are other places around the world historically going back thousands of years where it was deliberately to add to soil. So those are the terra preta soils in the Amazon naturally normally didn't have a lot of fires. And look, also can look at charcoal middens around ancient villages and even city states where people would dump their manure and their, you know, their hue manure, their night soil, and they would always deodorize it with charcoal and ash, and you find very fertile black soils in those places. So, it's not a new thing um, but we just kind of recently rediscovered So, as far as what it does in soil, you know, it doesn't break down. Like, you know, you asked, well, then how does it feed the It it sets the table. So It's the stable carbon with these fused carbon rings. It doesn't break down easily. And we'll also have the mineral ash. from the vegetation that burned. And so that's food. And then it also needs the carbs and the protein. So, and that comes from all the fertilizer that you add to it. So it basically sets the table for soil life because microbes like to sit down when they eat. And so you have all these little surfaces. In the charcoal, it's very, very porous. You know, think of activated carbon. People know that activated carbon is used for filtration. It's got all these pores. And so, in that way, it's kind of like a sponge. It can hold air and soil, which is beneficial. But also, there's the surface area. So, each of those tiny pores has a surface around it. And when you add up all the surface area, and this is kind of mind boggling, It's But you take a teaspoon of, of or, you know, that's got a lot of surface area or an activated carbon and it can have a football field's worth of surface area all inside It's, you know, it's, it's, it's amazing to think about, but all those surfaces are where the microbes can sit down and attach themselves. And if we, if we have added fertilizer as well, there are nutrients and water. Attached to those surfaces by electrostatic attraction. So the microbes just can hang out there and, and it's all there for them. So that's how biochar promotes um, the soil food web by, uh, promoting the microbes. And then the their mycelia in there to, you know, get it's a foundation of good soil. [00:07:42] Craig Macmillan: And you were talking about the fertilizer part. Is that one of the reasons why it's a good idea or a common practice to mix biochar with compost and spread it in that form? [00:07:50] Kelpie Wilson: Yes, but I would not just mix it with compost if I have any choice at all. I would put it in the beginning of the composting That's where you're going to get the most benefit know, it just takes time for all these things to come And so If you start it from the beginning, not only do you get the nutrients and the biology in there right you're um, having um, beneficial impact on your composting So, You'll have fewer greenhouse gas uh, the compost will get hotter quicker uh, and you know, the char will absorb any kind of nasty stuff that's in there, reduce odors, etc. it's really, The thing about biochar and to make it really work for you in a, in a farm um, is to get every, Benefit you can out of it. And there's a whole cascade of benefits that come with biochar. [00:08:40] Craig Macmillan: we can talk about that some more, but let's get to some practical things. Let's say I'm interested in this. I've been hearing about it. I'm excited about it. I want to try this out. How can I make some high quality biochar with the least amount of emissions and the highest biochar production on my farm? [00:08:57] Kelpie Wilson: Great So I've been working on this for quite a while. When I first heard about biochar, it was, I think, 2007, and it was the terra preta soils that we were all hearing about. I immediately got involved in it. I went to work for the International Biochar you know, was in close touch with people all around the world. that we're trying to find ways to start making and using biochar, and a lot of the first people to actually do it were people who uh, you know, making little cook stoves or just making biochar in burn piles, and I saw that myself because I live in the woods here in Oregon, and I'd go out to where they did burn piles to, you know, We had a lot of extra vegetation that had to be thinned to protect from wildfire. And I'd go to these burn piles and I'd find little chunks of charcoal left in them. And so we started making, doing experiments to see if we could optimize that. And we figured out make, take a burn pile and light it from the top. So it burned from the top down, and that would burn up a lot of the smoke so it was cleaner, and also leave us with a little pile of glowing coals at the end. And anybody who's made a campfire has seen this. You have that pile of glowing coals, and if you just walk away and leave it, it'll all go to ash. But if you just simply put it out with water, hey, you've got biochar. So that's the way to start, and you can can do it in your a, with a kettle grill. You know, just a little container that will improve the biochar recovery because if you cut off the air that comes in from and the sides of your you, you will just burn less of it to And again, you just put it out with water. So then I started making containers to improve the efficiency. compared to making biochar in an open burn pile, if you put it in a container, You can make three or four times as much so, I've been working with little containers ever those, We call those flame cap kilns. Because the idea of how they work is you put your, make your burn pile in a container. It's cutting off air from the bottom and the sides. So all the air comes from the And as it burns down, you keep adding more. And every time you add more material, it flames up. And the char that you've already formed on the bottom is protected from air by the container. And it's protected from air from the top because all the air that comes in is used in the flame of the currently burning material. And so what you've already made is, is protected from oxygen. So you can build up a huge pile of char in a container, and you're only limited by the size of your container, really. [00:11:34] Craig Macmillan: So the practice is put your feedstock in a container something that cuts off the bottom the sides from the air Light it from the top with kindling or something I would assume something lighter weight and then as that process goes and you can see the material come back Well, is it truly combustion if there's not a lot of oxygen? [00:11:51] Kelpie Wilson: Well, uh, I call it combustus interruptus. So basically it is combustion, but combustion happens in stages. Okay. myths combustion. One is um, wood wood burns, wood does not burn. Wood gas burns in a And you can see this if you look at your charcoal grill, you see, there's not a flame. Because the gas has already been mostly, you know, burned out of it. And so it just glows. So there's different stages of combustion. The first one is dehydration. When you heat a stick of um, water's going to come off of it, because water doesn't burn. And then the gases come out, and those are, methane, carbon burnable, burnable gases, and those make the flame. And then when the flame goes out, you know, you just, that glowing coal stage. So it's, it's really staged combustion, and you're just interrupting and saving the char. [00:12:49] Craig Macmillan: If I understand you correctly by putting more material on the top I'm continuing that process. The stuff on this top is heating up. You're getting that, flame cap. So you described it. And I can just keep layering on until my container's full. Basically. [00:13:04] Kelpie Wilson: Yep, that's how we do [00:13:06] Craig Macmillan: I want to come back to the kiln idea, but first, what are the, what are good feedstocks to make biochar from? What are feedstocks that are not good for making biochar? Right. Right. Uh [00:13:19] Kelpie Wilson: Good feedstocks are dry. You don't want a lot of wet stuff, because you use a lot of energy burning the wet. , Good feedstocks are also appropriately sized. So grapevines, for instance, are good because they're not really big. Even the trunk of a vine is not really big. And so if you try to put a big log in your container on your fire, you use so much energy to get the heat into the center of the log. So it's a progressive thing, right? You're charring the outside, and the heat's moving in, it's charring and charring and charring. But meanwhile, the outside of your char is starting to burn to ash. So it's not very efficient to try and char a big log. The kind of limit depends a lot on the fuel moisture. In Utah, we're We have really dry wood. People are putting six and eight inch diameter logs in a kiln and doing fine. In Oregon, I kind of keep it to four inches, usually. But you know, we could do bigger stuff. It's just not quite as efficient. So dry less than 25 percent moisture is ideal. We can do wetter stuff, and we often do because we're here in the middle of winter trying to get burn piles taken care of. So we go ahead and do it, and there's some techniques for optimizing how you do that, how you load it. But dry, less than 25%. and not too big, but also not too small. I've really tried hard to biochar hemp stalks, for instance, which are abundant around here, and they're just a little too small. if they're dry, they do pretty well, but you have to really make sure you don't pack them in too tightly because, small, small things like straw, and crop waste like that, they will pack and cut off the airflow and you'll get smoke. [00:15:07] Craig Macmillan: Oh, okay. [00:15:08] Kelpie Wilson: That's the main issue is you get smoke. And then as far as what species, the main difference between different species of wood, for instance, is density. And because we're making biochar in a flame, we're making it at a very high temperature. So it's, as long as we're not smoldering it, As long as we have the flame present, we know we're making it at a high enough temperature to burn out most of the volatiles. Know, some species like eucalyptus or walnut might have chemicals in them that are allelopathic, I think is the term. And if you add a lot of that to soil, you could have problems. But as long as we're making it at high temperature, we burn most of that out. [00:15:50] Craig Macmillan: Got it. So we want things that are dry. We want things that are woody, that are relatively high in concentration. Things like grasses are probably not going to work as well or work terribly well. It sounds like you want chunks basically, you know, something about the size of your forearm or a little bit bigger chunk would be a really great, size. [00:16:09] Kelpie Wilson: that's a great way to look at it. I like the physical measurements. You know, I was telling woofers here the other day about how to, make biochar compost. And so we're doing it in layers. And I just said, think about Parmesan cheese. When you add the biochar, if you really like Parmesan on your pizza, just add the biochar like that. So those kinds of physical measurements are really helpful for people when they're learning how to use biochar. [00:16:33] Craig Macmillan: and returning to that topic you recommend putting biochar in your composting windrows at the beginning as part of the whole process. [00:16:41] Kelpie Wilson: Yes. The very beginning when I think about a vineyard, especially one where you're actually making the wine know, you're pressing the grapes and you have the is it called pomace? I think the grape skins that's easily degradable stuff. It's hard to, compost just on its own because it doesn't have much carbon, but if you add biochar to that, you can make a beautiful compost. And then great for reducing on farm inputs. contributing to the circular economy. And that's always how I recommend people use biochar if possible, is find whatever other organic waste streams are there, whether it's grass clippings, grape pomace, leaves, anything else, manure that you might have, mix it right in there. [00:17:27] Craig Macmillan: Makes tons of sense. Okay. Let's get down to the nitty gritty here. We've touched on kilns as a way of getting the highest production. Tell me about the Ring of Fire Kiln system the concept in general. And then what might, what might be a biochar production day like? [00:17:42] Kelpie Wilson: The Ring of Fire kiln is my latest, greatest design. Just bin kilns, but they were heavy. So They were, weighing a lot, and you had to, move them around, and very hard for one person. So I came up with this modular design of panels. And so you can hook them together. They're four feet long and 40 inches tall, and they have a bracket that hooks them all together, and you can make a kiln any size you want. with that. I mean, not too big, but usually we make kilns that are between six feet and 12 feet in diameter. And so that can accommodate the piles you already have, for instance. And then the other innovation with that kiln is it has a heat shield. And that's really important for two reasons. One is it holds more heat in the kiln so you get more production. It's more efficient. But the other one is that it protects the worker. Because when you are around a giant , flaming pile, you know, you can really get fried just from the radiant heat. You know, you're not burning up, but you, the radiant heat, I would come away from some of my sessions with very red skin and very dehydrated. And so we really think a lot about the workers who are doing this. Because it's mostly hand labor, although we can also load the bigger kilns with, machinery. that's the Ring of Fire Kiln. It's also very, very clean, and there's a gap between the heat shield and the inner ring that allows, um, air to come through, and then so you have preheated air that's going in from the top into the kiln. And that also helps a lot with, uh, Reducing the smoke. And I have lots of pictures and videos showing the smoke being sucked into the kiln from the top. It's really cool to see these loops of smoke kind of coming up and then being sucked back down into the kiln. Those are the advantages of the ring of fire kiln in addition to the fact that it's modular. One person can take it apart and move it one panel at a time. The panels only weigh less than 40 pounds and set it up somewhere else. That's, that's the other advantage of the ring of fire kiln. So a typical workday, and I'm going to quote some numbers from my colleague Eric Meyer, who has Napa char, and he's done some incredible work in vineyards in the last couple years. Here's what he says He can make up to 12 cubic yards of biochar per kiln per day, which is two bone dry tons. And that is equivalent to two to three acres of pulled mines. he'll do this usually with one helper. Sometimes he'll have a, a mini excavator that he uses to load it, but a lot of times he's just doing it, you know, as hand labor. And so that's a ;lot of biochar, two tons of biochar in one day. He'll start by arriving at the site, setting up his kiln, and then just hand loading the biochar initially, fill it full, light it on top. There's a little break where you let it burn down till you start seeing glowing coals at the bottom and, some ash on the top. And then you just load it one layer at a time. And the loading rate is really critical. If you overload, you get smoke and you'll end up maybe even with unburned pieces in the bottom because the flame moves up in the kiln as you add more material and the bottom starts cooling off.  You don't want to leave any big pieces at the bottom. We load small pieces initially. And if you have bigger pieces, you would load them kind of toward the end or in the middle. And then when it's all full of biochar, or you're just done for the day because you're tired, you get some water out and you spray the kiln down with water just to cool it. Then you open up the panels, and rake it out, and you spray it with water and rake it at the same time. So you end up with a big, big patch of biochar on the ground. [00:21:29] Craig Macmillan: Perfect. Then you take that to your composting spot and away you go. . [00:21:32] Kelpie Wilson: another piece about making biochar from vineyards, especially vineyard removals, is that a lot of times there's wire, trellis wire, in it. And you could have a big pile and you could build a kiln around the pile because you're not untangling that pile, right, with all the wire in it. And then at the end, uh, you know, you pick the wire out of the char. You can use a magnet. [00:21:52] Craig Macmillan: That's cool. What are some things that we should be concerned about not doing? If we are newbies to biochar production. [00:22:00] Kelpie Wilson: Yeah, that's a really good question too. So, you need to know a little bit about your biochar. If you have a lot of ash in it, it can be alkaline. So if you have an alkaline soil, and you have alkaline biochar, you need to think about how you're going to apply it and maybe, usually composting will take care of any pH issue. If you have an acidic soil, you might want to just add it directly. You know, take the most advantage you can get of that liming ability. You also don't want to add too much at one time, especially without composting it first, because it can, , lock up nutrients for a short time. Most likely you're not gonna have too much biochar for a, for a big field. Um, It's great to be able to do it a little bit every year. That's the best way to incorporate it. [00:22:47] Craig Macmillan: Oh, and that's another question. I've seen different strategies here. Some folks believe that it has to be incorporated into the soil. Other folks say, no, that's good, but you can go ahead and spread it at the surface and you'll still get some benefits. Is that true? [00:22:58] Kelpie Wilson: Well, it's going to depend a lot on what you're trying to grow. So the vineyard trials that I've seen using biochar, a lot of times they're putting it in at planting and they're putting it in deep in the root zone. That seems like a good idea to me. One thing I'll say is when I look at the literature, I read a lot of the biochar research literature. There's some really interesting new material out about replant disease. So if you're replanting in a vineyard, you know, in an old vineyard, new vines. The soil can harbor pathogens that the older vines were able to resist, but the new vines have a hard time with. And biochar has a lot of benefits for disease resistance, just because it promotes a lot of microbial diversity, so you don't get the dominance with some of the pathogenic fungi and other organisms. So, you know, adding it, deep You know, when you're doing the replanting, replacing a vineyard is probably the most beneficial way, to add biochar. But if you already have a vineyard and you're using cover cropping, for instance, it'll go really well with a legume cover crop like clover and you don't even need to compost it because clover and legumes fix their own nitrogen and And biochar is especially wonderful with legume crops because it promotes the nitrogen fixing bacteria. If I just had a couple bags of biochar and I wanted to use it right away, and I was, planting a cover crop, I'd just use it in the cover crop. I think vines are like any other plant, where they have roots that come up close to the surface, they can get benefit from surface applied biochar as well. [00:24:39] Craig Macmillan: So if I'm following this idea, so from a cover cropping standpoint, what am I going to do is broadcast it and then plant my cover crop. That'd be one way of building the health of the whole floor, which is a really good idea. What about banding? It's very popular to band compost right into the vine row. If I have compost that's got biochar in it, will I get those benefits as well? [00:24:59] Kelpie Wilson: I would totally think so. The other thing about biochar is that it holds water. So, you know, in, droughty areas that would be helpful to, [00:25:08] Craig Macmillan: If there was one thing, just one piece of advice that you had for folks, Who are interested in starting to produce biochar and use biochar. Let's talk about it one for production and one thing for use. What would that be? What would that two part advice be? [00:25:25] Kelpie Wilson: first of all, uh, get one of my ring of fire biochar kilns. It's a, you know, it's really economic. And second of all, buy my book, the biochar handbook, because I have all kinds of information in there about composting, you know, different ways to culture biochar, build soil. Well, you know, so sorry to be so nakedly promotional there, but [00:25:50] Craig Macmillan: Well, you know, you're directing, you're directing people towards resources, [00:25:53] Kelpie Wilson: right. [00:25:53] Craig Macmillan: Anything else? [00:25:54] Kelpie Wilson: Oh, well, I'll send you some other resources, too, that you don't have to buy the book. Check out the U. S. Biotar Initiative website. There's a Biotar Learning Center there and USBI has collected a lot of resources there. fact sheets, their seminars, webinars. There is a lot of biochar information out there. And I will say I've watched a few YouTube videos that are just. Make me cringe it is so easy to experiment with it yourself, which is great. It's really great that people experiment with it. And I think, feel free, you know, do your own experiments. , there's some not so great information out there that, you might want to just do your own work and look at the more authoritative sources like that the USBI before you take what a YouTuber says as, as gospel about biochar. So I guess my one advice really on both, topics of production and application is just jump in and try it. It's so easy. You know, make it, make a bonfire in your backyard or, any kind of little container. You could dig a little shallow pit in the ground and, just make some biochar, then you've got some. Now do some, greenhouse trials. You know, see how it interacts with your soil because every soil is different. And so, check the pH, add it to, you know, your soil, and, grow a seedling. it's very easy to do some experiments. I actually have, in my book, a whole procedure for how to do a, scientifically valid experiment. Uh, Pot trial in the greenhouse, so you can really, step by step, you can really look and see how it compares with other amendments, try it in your compost pile, use a compost thermometer, it's not straightforward how to use it in compost, because again, compost like soil, it's going to have a lot of different kinds of ingredients, biochar does really interesting things, in compost, so. Just try it. [00:27:46] Craig Macmillan: Just try it. Like that's great advice. Our guest today has been Kelpie Wilson. She's the owner of Wilson Biochar Associates Consulting and Manufacturing. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. This has been some really great practical, actionable information, which is what we like to bring our listeners. As Kelpie mentioned, we're going to have a lot of links to things and resources and whatnot on the show notes. So be sure to travel to that page. I'm finding that this is a growing topic of interest, but I'm finding that there's more and more folks that are trying it, and we're all very excited for what the potential might be. [00:28:17] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by San agro. WestBridge is now San aggro. When the opportunity came to expand their reach and improve their customer's bottom line, they took it. San Agros commitment to deliver science-based solutions for sustainable crop health and nutrition remains the same. They offer a full line of plant nutrients, bio pesticides, and specialty inputs. Visit San agro.com to learn more. Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Kelpie her new book, the bio char handbook, a practical guide to making and using bioactivated charcoal loads, more links to bio char plus sustainable Winegrowing podcast episodes. 56 conservation burning and bio char. 1 0 6, what? Barry charcoal and the vineyard. 1 67. Used bio char to combat climate change and two 15 bio char production on a commercial scale. If you'd liked the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend. Subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts on vineyard team.org/podcast. And you can reach us@podcastatvineyardteam.org. Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team. Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

[00:00:00] Customer sense of urgency around climate change is rising. In fact, 78% of global consumers feel that environmental sustainability is important. [00:00:10] Welcome to marketing tip Monday with sip certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable while our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry. These twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable wine growing. [00:00:29] Customers like the idea of being sustainable and want to live more sustainable lives. While, many brands and retailers today are making eco-friendly claims. Some chalk up to little more than greenwashing. A marketing ploy designed to make products seem more sustainable than they are. Because of this consumers can feel that they can't always trust green claims. [00:00:50] It is more important than ever for sustainable brands like you to share your sustainable story in a meaningful and authentic way. [00:00:58] In this week's marketing tip. We share a great example. With Niner wine estates, sustainable story on the value of energy efficiency. [00:01:06] Electricity use in the winery accounts for a large proportion of the end products, energy demand. From keeping buildings and tanks at proper temperatures to powering equipment and lighting energy use in the winery adds up quickly. Anticipating increasing energy demand and cost. Niner wine estates built its winery into a hillside. Because of this, the ground level on one side of the building is a couple of stories higher. Then the ground level on the other side. This wasn't a flaw in the design, rather, a strategy to allow for a gravity flow winemaking system. are brought into the facility at the top level, instead of being transferred by machines, the grapes move with gravity down the tiers of the building through each stage of the winemaking process. [00:01:51] Another other energy efficient benefit of the hillside is that the earth surrounding the building works as a natural insulator, reducing the need for a cooling system to keep the facility at optimal temperatures. is another element that Niner wine estates utilizes large windows in the production facility and tasting rooms allow sunlight to fill these buildings during the day. When they do need electricity. The grid is not their primary source. Since 2015, the majority of their tasting room restaurant. Wineries and Wells have been powered by the sun. There are two banks of high efficient solar panels on the property. One at the top of their winery building and the other on the ground next to their tasting room. [00:02:33] Additional solar panels can be found in the parking lot, but they aren't used to power business operations. [00:02:39] solar banks are on top of EVs charging stations, welcoming staff and guests to plug in while they enjoy their time at nine or wine estates. [00:02:47] Together. All of these components have a significant impact on Niner wine estates, energy efficiency. them to symbols of sustainability, achievement, sip certified and lead a certified level. Silver. Make sure you check out the show notes. For the link called stacking energy savings, sustainable story at Niner wine estates to see pictures of their energy efficient facility. [00:03:13] here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the sustainable story program. This simple, yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal and it just got better. With the upgraded online course, go to the show notes, click the link titled tell your sustainable story. To sign up and start writing yours today. [00:03:35] Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team. Tell Your Sustainable Story We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program. This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing yours today!       Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team. Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** 240: Stacking Energy Savings | Sustainable Story: Niner Wine Estates Apply for SIP Certified Wine Marketing Tips eNewsletter Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic What's your Sustainable Story? Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet  Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member

We regularly hear about eclectic tractors but have you tried an electric truck? Duff Bevill, Founder and Partner and Brooke Parsons, Viticulture Analyst at Bevill Vineyard Management were part of the Ford Pro Pilot Project. They tested the capacity of an electric van, truck towing capabilities, and battery life of electric vehicles during day to day farming operations. The pair discuss the benefits of tracking GPS and maintenance through Ford's Telematics and the things you need to consider when looking to add an electric truck to your fleet.   Resources:         120: Autonomous Drone Vineyard Spraying 219: Intelligent Sprayers to Improve Fungicide Applications and Save Money 225: California's Ban on Autonomous Tractors   Bevill Vineyard Management Farming of the Future: Ford Pro, Sonoma County Winegrowers Join Forces to Electrify Business of Farming Sustainable Farming in Sonoma County Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year - PODCAST24 Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:05] Beth Vukmanic: We regularly hear about electric tractors, but have you tried an electric truck? Welcome to sustainable wine growing with Vineyard Team. Where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, executive director. Since 1994, we have brought you the latest science-based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools. Through both infield and online education so that you can grow your business. Please raise a glass with us as we cheers to 30 years. [00:00:37] In today's podcast Craig Macmillan, critical resource manager at Niner wine estates with long time SIP Certified vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery. Speaks with Duff Bevill. Founder and partner. And Brooke Parsons, viticulture analyst at Bevill vineyard management. [00:00:55] They were part of the Ford probe pilot project, where they tested the capacity of an electric van. Truck towing capabilities and battery life of electric vehicles during day-to-day farming operations. The pair discussed the benefits of tracking GPS and maintenance through Ford telematics and the things you need to consider when looking to add an electric truck to your fleet. [00:01:17] . Because you listened to this podcast, you won't want to miss the premier wine growing event of the year, the Sustainable Ag Expo. Enjoy the perfect blend of in-person and online learning. Speak directly with national experts earn over 20 hours of continuing education. And explore sustainable ag. Vendors. It all takes place. [00:01:38] November 12th through 13th, 2024 at the Madonna Inn expo center in San Luis Obispo, California. As a listener to this podcast, take $50 off of your ticket. When you use code podcast 24 at checkout. Get yours today at sustainableagexpo.org. Now let's listen in. [00:01:56] Craig Macmillan: Our guests today are Duff Bevill and Brooke Parsons. Duff is owner of Bevill Vineyard Management in Sonoma County. And Brooke Parsons is Viticulture Analyst with Bevill Vineyard Management. And we're going to talk about the Ford Pro Pilot Project that they're involved in. Thanks for being on the podcast. [00:02:19] Duff Bevill: You bet, man. [00:02:19] We're happy to be here. [00:02:20] Craig Macmillan: So Duff, what exactly is this project? How'd you get involved in it? Give us a little history. [00:02:26] Duff Bevill: Yeah, back in I think it was September, October of 2021. Well, I'm involved with the Sonoma County growers organization and Carissa Cruz, our president and Carissa. [00:02:37] Got a name of somebody to call. And she made a cold call to a Ford motor company. And then I think one more phone call after that. And she got in touch with Ford pro told him what we were interested in doing. Thought whether it was a perfect fit because our sustainability program that we've you know, managed now for more than a decade, well over a decade. [00:02:54] And Ford sent someone from Detroit out here to meet with us over dinner and another representative out of Sacramento that was, I think, a lobbyist for Ford, I can't remember exactly. His role, but both of them came out here and she cold called a couple of us to come and have dinner with his middle of harvest and yeah, we hit it off and she went back to I guess, technically Dearborn and told them back there that we were legitimate and she thought that they should pursue something with us. [00:03:19] So that, that was in September, October, then in November around Thanksgiving. A team from Ford came to meet with us. They want to know size of our fleet of vehicles. They're just trying to get some, to find out how legitimate we might be. And they went back positive. And then the following January, so it'd be January of 2022 Ford came out full blown to Sonoma County, out to the Dutton Ranch. [00:03:43] And we had a big, giant press release. President Jim Farley came out from Ford, all on film, gave a talk and that sort of thing, and it was a big deal. So that really launched, it's really January of 2022. Roughly probably March, I think it was, of 2022, they didn't have the lightened pickup trucks available yet. [00:04:01] That was still, suffering from COVID, you know, and, and Production was down. So , they actually had some Ford vans, electric vans, which they just gave us a try and Brooke she was basically assigned that van and tried to figure out what to do with it. And so we, all collectively came up with an idea on how to use the vans, although you know, they're just not a fit for farming, but we made, we made it work out. [00:04:23] And then I think it was in June, we finally pick up the lightning. So June of 2022, we've got the lightnings. And then what we did was we gave Ford feedback. We met with engineers, either Zoom or in person on a pretty regular basis for the better part of a year. More than a year probably. [00:04:40] Just getting feedback from a farming point of view, you know, from us using vehicles in the field. And each one of the three companies used them differently and to gather information. I personally wanted to drive it so I could see. How it would work if I want to buy more, would actually work for me . [00:04:56] I know one of the other companies used to have their shop mechanics use it and another company had one of their field foreman use it. So all of us really tried something different with it and for different reasons. But anyways, that's how it worked out. And we just fed information back and forth, making recommendations, you know, see if there's any flaws that Came up and we'd report back immediately to them. [00:05:14] We saw something that Could be improved or or ask why it was the way it was that sort of thing [00:05:20] Craig Macmillan: And we're talking about a completely electric vehicle that's designed for farm use Is that right? [00:05:25] Duff Bevill: The concept of ford pro so I got my ford hat on right now the concept of ford pro It's a division that was created to really focus on business people with fleets so farming was a connection I don't think they thought of until we reached out to them. [00:05:42] I think on paper, originally they were looking at the local contractor. You know, the guy was he drove it personally, he was the contractor, or he had a couple carpenters working for him. I think that was probably it initially. Whether they were thinking of farming at all until we reached out to them. [00:05:58] I don't know. They almost certainly weren't thinking of wine grape growing on the west coast. I think that the whole name Ford Pro, it was really targeted to professional business people who would normally have a pickup truck and how they could adapt using electric vehicle. [00:06:15] Craig Macmillan: I wasn't familiar with this until this came up for this episode. Is this product line is, is that commercially available at the time that you approached them? Is it available now? Is it still in kind of a testing state? [00:06:26] Duff Bevill: They weren't available yet, but they were marketing in the summer of for sure the fall, but certainly the summer of 2021. [00:06:33] I saw ads on TV or Something that would pop up on a website. If you're on Googling something else on a Ford pro for a lightning come up for 10 seconds and disappeared on it. It was a little bit of a tease at that point. But I know the one I got or the one that we have now was number one Oh nine. [00:06:48] Craig Macmillan: Okay. [00:06:49] Duff Bevill: I used to kid them asking, tell them I wanted number one, but they wouldn't give it to me. But I got number one oh nine and, they were just beginning to market it you know, shortly after Covid hit. And so they continued to in, in 2021, you know, we were basically all shut down in 2020. [00:07:05] And 2021 was still pretty disastrous, but they were but all their production facilities were shut down. I mean, they came to a halt just like everybody else. So I think they anticipated getting out there, marketing earlier, making it available earlier. But I think the biggest stumbling block was for, I think a lot of manufacturers, they just didn't have the chips from the big chip manufacturer in Hong Kong. [00:07:25] And that was what it boiled down to. I think it was true for all the car companies. Yeah. [00:07:30] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. I remember that. [00:07:31] Duff Bevill: That was, you had to get that out there. And so they had a marketing plan. They created a division. They had a president of the division identified. The marketing team was in place. [00:07:38] All the engineers were shifted to the Ford pro team. You know, we got to meet almost all those people, I could, make a phone call to one of the head engineers anytime I wanted to, or send them a text or an email. [00:07:49] Craig Macmillan: Wow. [00:07:50] Duff Bevill: It was a real interesting experience. [00:07:53] Craig Macmillan: And you said you got a van first, is that right? [00:07:56] Duff Bevill: Yeah, Brooke drove it, yeah. [00:07:57] Craig Macmillan: That got handed over to you, Brooke. What was that like? Did you have experience with electric vehicles prior to that? Did you have experience with vans prior to that? Were you, Pickup truck person. [00:08:05] Brooke Parsons: Good questions. Yes. I had never driven a van much prior, especially for viticultural tasks. Before using the e transit, I used a pickup with a trailer that I would load a four wheeler onto the trailer and the e transit took the place of the trailer and the pickup. So I loaded With a ramp. The four wheeler inside. [00:08:31] Craig Macmillan: Oh, it was a pretty good sized vehicle then. [00:08:33] Duff Bevill: Yeah. A half ton chassis. It was basically F-150 chassis, but the van, you know? [00:08:38] Craig Macmillan: Oh like a panel van. [00:08:40] Duff Bevill: Exactly. [00:08:41] Craig Macmillan: Oh, okay. I was thinking like in a condo van. [00:08:44] This is more like a panel van. You got room to put stuff in. That makes sense. More like a, more like a service truck. [00:08:48] Brooke Parsons: Like a service truck. So I'd open the back of it to load the four wheeler, but I could also open the side to access my tools and whatnot. It was nice. [00:08:59] Duff Bevill: They actually outfitted it with shelving. Which would have been perfect if you were like a plumber or an electrician. But with the shelving it made the bay too narrow that we couldn't even fit the four wheeler and ATVs, so we had to take the shelving out so we could use it for that purpose. [00:09:14] You know, we just substitute trailer and a pickup truck for the van. But how long did you drive that van? [00:09:20] Brooke Parsons: I drove it for one full season, so May or June through the end of harvest. [00:09:25] Craig Macmillan: How did you find that? Cause you see that all the time. You see the truck with the trailer, with the ATV in the back. [00:09:30] How did you find that moving up to a van? Did you find it easier to drive? More difficult? Were you not as confident [00:09:34] Brooke Parsons: I loved it because I didn't have to worry about a trailer and I didn't have to unload it each night to put it in the barn. So I just closed it all up and it was safe inside the van. [00:09:46] If I went anywhere. I felt safe to leave the four wheeler locked inside and it wouldn't be tampered with. It was simple enough to bring back to the shop and charge every day and be ready to go the next morning. [00:10:01] Craig Macmillan: That was gonna be my next question, Brooke. So when you first started with this, did you have any concerns about range? [00:10:05] Duff Bevill: All of us do. [00:10:07] Brooke Parsons: Yeah, that was the number one concern was range. For our operation, we farm all in Sonoma County and in a given day, I wasn't driving more than say a hundred miles in the van and it did make a difference in the range, whether or not I had weight in the vehicle or not, or if I use the heat or not. [00:10:32] I didn't have as much range in the van as the Ford Lightning. And I had to be careful there were a couple of scary moments that I thought I'd have to call Somebody to come get me, but I never ultimately ran out of power [00:10:48] Craig Macmillan: So with a little practice and a little experience, you knew [00:10:51] Duff Bevill: If you were to buy a a ford lightning, I don't know about the other electric vehicles in the ford product line But for sure the lightning you would have a choice of, I think, two different battery packs. [00:11:02] One they refer to, I believe it's just standard. And then they had a second option or an option that would be the extended battery. My understanding at the time, the Ford, pro version of the Ford Lightning came with a standard battery. But when they heard I was, you know, initially I was getting over 300 miles in a charge, I asked them about that and they said let us get back to you. [00:11:22] Well, a week later they got back and said, oh yeah, that's right, we set yours up, or the three, but for sure mine, the one we still have, with the big battery. They sort of custom built that truck. These three are one offs in that first early run of the heavier battery pack, which to me and I suggested this to him, if the marketing is intended to be to the professional business owner driving a pickup truck, I think Ford pro should just be, you have a standard big battery in it for those reasons. [00:11:50] They may do that. I have no idea. You're got a professional driver. He's in there going from. The lumber yard to the job site down to the Supply depot for something else. I would just think that's just based on our habits in the farming industry. [00:12:03] You're shuffling around and it seems to me that'd be a good option, but anyways, It worked out great for me. [00:12:08] Craig Macmillan: So you've been driving the lightning now for a little while, right? [00:12:11] Duff Bevill: I drove it for the first two I guess nine months just so I could assess How I might want to buy more of them for , our operation here. [00:12:19] We buy a couple of pickup trucks every year. I gave , the, pickup to Brooke. So she now drives the pickup cause we turned the van back in. [00:12:25] Craig Macmillan: I figured that might get kicked back to you so Brooke now you've driven the van now you're driving the truck How do you feel about the truck? [00:12:31] Brooke Parsons: It handles better than any vehicle. I've ever driven. I love to drive it. I'm very proud of it and I Like it a lot zero complaints [00:12:41] Craig Macmillan: Even though you have to have a trailer again [00:12:42] Brooke Parsons: Even though I have to have a trailer again, that's okay. [00:12:45] Duff Bevill: It was remarkable how it seemed like it was luxurious riding because the electric horsepower, . That thing is so powerful. One of the things, again, my understanding of the engineers, they redesigned the chassis on it. [00:12:57] So Ford that F one 50 has four wheel, all four corners, independent suspension. Soon as we got to, we put it up on the rack to take a look at the, Technology underneath it. Look at the batteries, you know, you're not touching anything, you're just looking at everything. [00:13:10] And they designed this beautiful cast aluminum suspension for the back end of that truck. That you'd find in a, I don't know, luxurious European automobile, I think. But it's built heavy to handle all that, torque. You know, oh, it's like, I don't know, 800, horsepower when you push the special button on the dashboard, you know, and it's pretty stunning the performance and that's all torque. [00:13:31] That's twisting power. And so the engineers had to design into that thing, something capable of handling that much torque is beautiful. But the point is a four wheel independent suspension just rides beautifully cars heavier. So about a thousand pounds heavier, I think because of the batteries. So the comments, the extra weight. [00:13:47] And a very sophisticated suspension. It's just like a luxury sedan. And you're driving pretty nice. [00:13:52] Craig Macmillan: And so Brooke, you've been driving this truck now, one of the things that has come up around electric vehicles has been the question of horsepower end of torque. [00:13:59] How do you feel this truck performs compared to like, let's say a diesel dually, [00:14:03] Brooke Parsons: It accelerates very quickly, so getting onto the freeway is no problem when it's busy. And the other biggest factor that I notice is braking. You hardly have to brake and it takes a little bit of time to get used to because when you take your foot off of the accelerator, it naturally stops because the engine isn't going. [00:14:29] And you hardly have to use your brakes, which is very nice. [00:14:33] Duff Bevill: When I first got it, my wife had a Prius many, many years ago, and she pretty much drove it right off the lot. The way it was set up from the dealer. Well, I discovered that you could switch to regeneration on electric. So when you did let off the throttle, it would break by regenerating electric motors, regenerate electricity, put it back in the battery. [00:14:52] Well, that's the first thing I did on this lightning. Find that setting I think in the nine months that I drove it I told the guys at Ford I said, I'll bet you I didn't touch the brakes ten times in those nine months [00:15:03] Brooke Parsons: but to answer your question I've only pulled light things behind it and So I haven't really put it to the test in that way. [00:15:13] Craig Macmillan: I was doing a little research on this and I understand that there's like a data collection and management component to this that's attractive. [00:15:19] What can you tell me about that? Have you used that feature? It can tell you about your fleet, I guess? [00:15:24] Duff Bevill: Aside from electric vehicles Ford was really interested in us, Using and learning to use, and hearing back from us, their telematics. That's what they call it, Ford Telematics. [00:15:37] And I think it was initially launched with the Ford Pro division, where you sign up every vehicle in your fleet. We've got like 20 Ford pickup trucks, something like that. If you go back all the way, I want to say like to 2014. [00:15:49] Prior to that, I'm not sure, but for sure, like 2014, the electronics in those vehicles have the capability of just hooking up to the telematic system. The Ford is promoting, and if you get it into your fleet and get your, your vehicles in entered in your fleet, you can monitor them. Of course, like GPS, that's what everybody's doing nowadays, but much more than that, your shop manager could know, have a better use of knowing when it's time for an oil change, you know, we just do it. [00:16:14] We track that kind of stuff, hard copy paper, put a sticker on the dashboard and the drivers relay to us when the mileage number comes up, they notify the shop manager and we schedule for a service. Typically the oil filter change and then in general inspection we inspect the brakes and all that kind of stuff. [00:16:31] With the telematics they have the potential setting up where you could punch in a timeline that you wanted either by the calendar. Like every 12 months on the vehicles that we don't run very much. We do a major inspection every 12 months. And then the ones that actually have the mileage being for somewhere between five and 7, 000 miles, something like that. [00:16:50] Depends on the vehicle. Depends on the tractor or it's a pickup truck or a full size class eight diesel truck. And so all that stuff is available. And one of the pluses and this happened to us. It was a perfect, we've used this as an example. Typically in modern vehicles, the components that fail first are the sensors that measure your NOX exhaust pipes. [00:17:11] Those are the ones that are going bad. Probably because of the heat cycle they go through because of their exhaust pipes, right? So about anywhere between 40, 000 and 60, 000 miles, those are the devices that fail. So one of our foremen called the shop, our shop manager, and said check engine light came on. [00:17:27] I guess he got the code through telematics, identified it as an oxygen sensor, ordered the part. The truck never came back to the shop. It's still out on the job site. We're supposed to be with the crew. He gets the parts ordered. The delivery guys bring the part to the shop that day. And it's interesting how it works is that is the analysis is it is 90 percent likely it's your oxygen sensor. They come up and then when the guy back that night, they bring it right into the shop and change that sensor. At the end of the day, confirmed that that was the part that needed to be replaced. [00:18:00] The next day was back on the job site, all repaired. The only other way around that would have been. Bring it back to the shop. Get your, your analysis device on it, you know, on the onboard computer or mechanic drives out to the job site, does the same thing at the job site. [00:18:16] And then it comes back or it comes out, orders the parts on a telephone or something like that. So it's saves time. There's no doubt about it. And there's a lot more to, manage a lot of the of systems we have already in place Ford doing the same thing with their telematics. [00:18:28] So some of the things Didn't have any added value because we already have that kind of technology, but they were expanding a lot of that technology for fleet management. So that's a real plus. And they were constantly tweaking that in making improvements on the usability of it and that sort of thing. [00:18:44] So that was a big deal. That was a big one. [00:18:47] Craig Macmillan: The fleet management aspect of having an electric vehicle like this with this kind of a technology going into the future could be huge for a farm, could be huge for a management company like yourself that has properties all over the place. That kind of remote diagnostic is really amazing. [00:18:59] The idea of like, Hey, the light's on. Okay, I'll fix it tonight. No problem. [00:19:03] Duff Bevill: Well, the other big plus is when we put that lightning up on the rack, just to take a look at it, you know, we're just kind of noodling through the, , there's no oil to change in an engine. We found one plug access to a transmission on it. [00:19:18] But even the owner's manual says don't touch any of that kind of stuff. You know, they can be serviced, but there's no schedule for servicing. The disc brakes, I don't think you'd ever If you use the vehicle to its maximum value, I don't think you'd ever put brakes in it. There's no transmission transitions made up of hundreds and hundreds of parts. It's not electric motors or a simple, simple mechanical device and the internal combustion engine has hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of parts that aren't there. So it has the potential of being over the ownership timeline of it. [00:19:52] A lot less cost per mile. Even when you, you calculate in your Cost of electricity charge, but we have here and we've got solar panels here too. We already had installed From a number of years ago So we've got sort of that added advantage whether the electric vehicle made a little bit even more sense because we're already kind of using discounted Power [00:20:11] Craig Macmillan: that was going to be my next question. i'm assuming your solar is connected to the grid So it's an offset so you're not islanded, but you still have the, you're generating power on your own. [00:20:20] So you've got onsite power generation to power your fleet to a degree. That's brilliant. Yeah, that's fantastic. I remember years ago people were complaining about diesel engines and friends of mine were like, well, if you build us a solar truck, I'll freaking drive it. I got no problem with that. [00:20:33] Well, here we are. What do you know? It's 30 years later, we have solar trucks, in effect. There has to have been some obstacles to adopting this. Were there some roadblocks or some things you had to learn along the way before you really felt like you were totally comfortable? [00:20:46] Duff Bevill: Well, like I said, I was familiar with a hybrid. [00:20:49] I still drive a hybrid. I drive a hybrid Ford pickup truck now. We had to get a charging station installed. Here at the office and then, you know, there's a decision. Do I do it at home or do the office? I wanted to hear at the office because that's where the fleet is parked and I had to think through, you know, get the one installed and how many more can I have and how many trucks will it eventually service without a major infrastructure redesign. [00:21:11] So we've got that one put in and I, in the process, I had the electrician who was recommended to us. I had him install extra conduits underground. That are dummy right now. I assume we'll, we'll, extend for more pickup trucks. [00:21:25] That was really the big obstacle. And then that's why I drove it because I want to know firsthand exactly what I was up against. I accomplished what I wanted. I want to learn as much as I could about it. Being there, having access to the Ford people, especially the engineers. Was on the fast track of having a better understanding. [00:21:40] I got to talk to the guys who actually, one guy designed the grill, the other guy designed the dashboard. I mean, I was talking to those, [00:21:45] Craig Macmillan: you had access. Yeah. That's, that's pretty amazing. Brooke, what was your learning curve? Like you talked about a couple of things, but were there obstacles that you felt you kind of ran across that you had to figure out, or that could be improvements [00:21:56] Brooke Parsons: just forming the habit of charging. [00:21:57] One time I forgot and. I was responsible for getting people someplace in the morning and it made me nervous. But you do that once or twice and you don't forget. So that was the real only obstacle. When traveling a longer distance, I did have to learn how to find charging stations that work well, are compatible with the lightning. [00:22:25] And Ford is making advances in that area, now partnered with Tesla to use their system. And so that will only improve. But really it's around learning how to use the logistics of electric charging. [00:22:44] Craig Macmillan: Right. And that's true for electric charging. For all of that. And you're right. I think a little bit of practice. [00:22:49] Most of the folks that I know with electric vehicles, they're scared at first, and then they kind of figure it out. Now that you've had a chance to work with this, I think I already know the answer to this question. I mean, there's a question for both of you. When you were looking to your crystal ball, how do you see this technology being applied in the future? [00:23:03] Duff Bevill: Think there's a place for it. I'm not so sure that one type of energy source is going to be the, solution for everything. I think practically, I think it's going to be some kind of a combination of energy sources and I don't discount nuclear. [00:23:14] There's probably a place for everything, certainly in a transition period that that'll work best for all. Electrician put in the the charging station for us. He said, , if everybody's gonna go electric, the package must be solar panels, um, battery storage, either a large battery storage in a community setting, you know, like in a neighborhood or a small city size. [00:23:37] Or you'll have battery storage areas that is appropriate, like maybe at our farm shop. Because we're commercial, we would be a candidate for battery storage, at least for our operation. So you'd have a solution for, you know, we're back to Sonoma County weather conditions again for the first time in quite a few years. [00:23:55] I mean, it's overcast and rainy a lot of days out of the year. If you have solar panels, they're just not going to be working as efficiently and you still have to go to work every day and get your people to work. If you are relying. Let's say exclusively on electric, you've got to have something other than solar panel on the roof [00:24:09] so windmill, solar panels, battery storage, there's some combination of multiple technologies. I just think that's sort of realistic of what it is. Do you want 95 percent of it to be coal? No, none of us do, you know, cause we all know the story there, but is, is there a place for coal for 10 percent of it? [00:24:25] 15 percent of it. Don't know. I have no idea. It's good. I mean, we liked it. It's you know, just, we're not relying on it entirely right now, but we'll phase into it as time goes on. [00:24:33] Craig Macmillan: Well, that was going to be, and and maybe Brookie also can kind of speak to this. I mean, is there a time when there isn't going to be a diesel truck on the farm? [00:24:40] Duff Bevill: We're more concerned about diesel tractors. You know, the evolution went from, steam, you know, the early 1900s. The steam to, and then, you know, both in automobiles and, and on, on the farm, the competition was steam or gasoline because diesel wasn't invented yet. [00:24:58] diesel engine wasn't invented until the 1920s. So turn of the century, 19th and 20th century, it was a competition between steam and gasoline, gasoline won. So gasoline surge forward all the way into the 1930s and with a few exceptions and in the 1940s, but by the 1950s. There was a clear transition that diesel was much, much more efficient, you know, pound for pound and horsepower for horsepower. [00:25:24] I can't even think of where you could buy a gasoline tractor once you got in the 1970s. I'm sure you could still, but it represented a really small percentage. And by the 80s and 90s, it's all diesel.down to almost lawnmower size you can get it John Deere ride along more, you probably have a choice between gasoline and and diesel power to mow the golf course, [00:25:42] that's actually transitioning to electric now too, you know, those, those small ones will plug it in and then mow for two hours, we're not even in the transition part of that story yet. [00:25:52] There's a couple, manufacturers that have electric tractors the, inconvenience of them is really insurmountable right now, but changing batteries at lunchtime in your barn and that kind of stuff, tough. That's, tough technology. [00:26:05] Craig Macmillan: It's still new. Yeah, this is still new. We're still finding our way there. I've talked to people about that topic quite a bit. It'll get better. Yeah, we'll see where it goes. Hey, Brooke, what is one thing that you'd recommend to listeners if they're thinking about adopting electric vehicles for the farm? [00:26:20] Brooke Parsons: Would say be open to trying new things. It expands your mind and. It allows opportunity that would not be there otherwise. And be okay with mistakes. That's how we learn. [00:26:37] Craig Macmillan: That's great advice. I think that's really, really good. Where can people find out more about you at Beville Vineyard Management? [00:26:43] Duff Bevill: Look at our website BevillVineyard.Com Get you right to the, right to the website. [00:26:47] Craig Macmillan: Well, I want, to both for being here. Thanks, Duff, and thanks, Brooke, for being here. [00:26:51] Duff Bevill: Well, thank you for reaching out to us. [00:26:53] Brooke Parsons: You're welcome. Thank you. [00:26:55] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by Valent. Bio-sciences a leader in biostimulants constantly delivering, cutting edge innovation to maximize their customers yields and ROI. [00:27:14] Their are 40 plus products span the three bio stimulant brands providing solutions for every acre. Make sure you check out the show notes. For links to Bevill vineyard management. Articles on the Ford Pro Pilot project and sustainable Winegrowing podcast episodes. 120 autonomous drone vineyard spring. 219 intelligent sprayers to improve fungicide applications and save money. And 225 California's ban on autonomous tractors. [00:27:44] If you liked the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend subscribing and leaving us a review. That helps us reach more listeners. Like you, you can find all of the podcasts@vineyardteam.org / podcast, and you can reach us at podcast@vineyardteam.org. [00:28:00] Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team. Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

[00:00:00] By acting environmentally and socially responsible today, we get future generations, a healthy place to call home. The actions that you as an individual take, have an impact. [00:00:11] Welcome to marketing tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry. These twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable wine growing. [00:00:29] So you can show your customers that you share their values. [00:00:33] The summer months, bring more staff and guests into tasting rooms across the country. Invite your whole team to join in your brand sustainability efforts. When you practice these five sustainable tasting room habits. Tip one is to conserve. Simple actions like completely shutting off water faucets after use and notifying management of leaks help conserve this limited resource. Turning lights and appliances off when not in use reduces electricity. Consumption. [00:01:02] Although the commercial end use energy sector uses the smallest amount of energy of the four sectors, which include transportation, industrial, residential, and commercial. The majority of the energy used comes from fossil fuels, small efforts in the workplace, reduce reliance on non-renewable energy. Tip two is to recycle responsibly. [00:01:24] We know the importance of recycling, but when heading to the bin with recyclables in hand, it's easy to forget the nuances. Some items can be recycled together, like cardboard paper and some plastics and metal. Glass is, usually recycled separately. And sometimes that's separated by color. It may be tempting to line up a recycle bin with a plastic bag. But it can actually be detrimental to your good efforts. [00:01:48] Plastic bags can clog recycling machinery. Contaminate other recyclable materials and potentially lead to recyclable material ending up at the landfill. Instead, keep those items loose or use a paper or reusable bag to line the can. Your wine bottle corks can also be recycled and turned into many useful items. [00:02:08] Start a collection container and send it off to be repurposed. [00:02:12] Re cork has a map of drop off locations that makes it easy to find a cork recycling partner near you. Consider teaming up with neighboring tasting rooms to send your corks together. Tip three is to reduce and reuse. Upgrade to glass and metal dishes in the break room to cut down. On single use plastics, Sanitize and reuse water bottles for serving water. These small changes can drastically reduce your weekly waste. Tip four is to source locally. Check out local artists and small businesses for crafts, snacks, and knickknacks to offer for sale in your tasting room. This is a great way to introduce your guests to local talent and support your community. And tip five is to bike or carpool to work. [00:02:58] There are several alternative transportation options available today For eco-conscious commuters. Trips can be shared by carpooling or using public transportation to reduce the number of cars on the road. Riding a bike e-bike skateboard or one wheel has The added bonus of getting your blood pumping. [00:03:17] We are here to help you tell. [00:03:19] Your customers, how your brand protects natural and human resources with the sustainable story program. This simple, yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal message. And it just got better with the new online course. Go to the notes. Click on the link titled to tell your sustainable story, to sign up and start writing yours today. Until next time, this is sustainable. [00:03:42] Winegrowing with the vineyard team. Tell Your Sustainable Story We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program. This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing yours today!       Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team. Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Apply for SIP Certified Wine Marketing Tips eNewsletter Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic What's your Sustainable Story? Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Farmers and ranchers have some of the highest suicide rates of all United States occupations. Misty Oebel, Health and Farm Stress Extension Educator at Michigan State University works with a team to help farmworkers manage depression and anxiety. Their educational initiatives, outreach, and teletherapy give farmworkers who often live in remote areas access to help without a commute or social stigma. Misty highlights the importance of community support, recognizing signs of stress, and maintaining a resilient mindset through learned optimism. She reminds listeners that the farmer is the most important asset on the farm. Resources:         988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline (USA) Agriservice professionals play important role in suicide prevention How to cultivate a productive mindset Michigan State University Extension – Managing Farm Stress Resilient Minds: Managing Stress on the Farm Youth farm stress Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript Before we jump in, please note that this episode contains discussion on suicide. If you prefer to skip this one, there are nearly 250 other episodes to choose from. If you need resources or support. Call or text the suicide and crisis lifeline at 9 8, 8 for 24 hour free counseling services in the United States. [00:00:26] Beth Vukmanic: Of all occupations in the United States, farmers and ranchers have some of the highest suicide rates. Welcome to sustainable winegrowing with vineyard team. Where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, executive director. Since 1994, we have brought you the latest science-based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both infield and online education so that you can grow your business. Please raise a glass with us as we cheers to 30 years. In today's podcast Craig Macmillan, critical resource manager at Niner wine estates with a long time sip certified vineyard and the first ever sip certified winery. Speaks with Misty Oebel. Health and farm stress extension educator at Michigan state university. Misty works with a team to help farm workers manage depression and anxiety. Their educational initiatives, outreach and teletherapy, give farm workers who often live in remote areas. Access to help without a commute or social stigma. Misty highlights the importance of community support, recognizing signs of stress and maintaining a resilient mindset through learned optimism. She reminds listeners that the farmer is the most important asset on the farm. Before we get into the interview, I wanted to share a message from Lupita, a vineyard team. Juan Nevarez is Memorial scholar. She says my parents left Mexico to give my siblings and me a better future. I want to make them proud by finishing school and pursuing my dream of becoming a pediatrician and the Salinas valley so that I can give back to my community. We know that higher education is important to many students, but paying for college could be challenging. This unique program provides financial and support services to the children of California's vineyard and winery workers. So they can earn a higher degree. You can help a student like Lupita, make their dreams come true by making a gift. By visiting vineyard team.org/scholarship. Or look for the link in our show notes. Now let's listen in. [00:02:35] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Misty Oebel. She is a health and farm stress extension educator with Michigan state university extension. Thanks for being on the podcast. [00:02:44] Misty Oebel: Well, so much for having me. [00:02:46] Craig Macmillan: And today we're going to talk about a concept called farm stress. When I first heard the term farm stress, I was thinking of farms that were stressed, you know, land that had been overworked or was in decline and that kind of thing, cause that's a lot of the stuff that I talk about and study, but that's not what we're talking about in this context. What does farm stress mean in your world? [00:03:05] Misty Oebel: So in my world, I'm focused on behavioral health. I look at providing education about stress, particularly chronic stress and its impact on the agricultural community. So I think it might be more accurate if we went by the term of like farmer stress or stress on the farm, but that's not the way it's titled. So farm stress is what we go by. [00:03:25] Craig Macmillan: One of the things that brought your project to our attention, and it's really extensive. MSU Extension is doing a lot of work in this area. It's really impressive, and we'll hear some more about that. Suicide rates are one of the highest in the occupations of farming and ranching of any occupations in the United States, actually. Which a lot of people might be surprised to find out. And related to that, there's also very high incidence of Depression and or at least meeting the criteria for depression and for generalized anxiety disorder. And, you know, by these, I want to make sure that we're clear that, you know, we're not talking about simply being like, Oh, I'm sad. Oh, I'm depressed, but actually things that impact your ability to function, your actual mental illness conditions [00:04:05] Misty Oebel: Right. That's exactly right. When we're looking at these numbers a lot of we're studying it through self report. So it's asking questions. It's not asking a question like, do you feel depressed? It's asking a question like, are you having problems with your appetite? How is your sleep changed? How are your relationships with other people? Are you experiencing irritability on a regular basis? Those are the kinds of questions that they ask. And then those are the criteria that they're looking at when they're saying agricultural workers are you know, we're finding that about 60 percent of the people that are participating in these studies are meeting the criteria for. depression, about 55 percent for generalized anxiety disorders. So this is significant because that does impact your ability to function. [00:04:50] Craig Macmillan: And are also risk factor for things like suicide and substance abuse. [00:04:54] Misty Oebel: And that's exactly right. We see much higher rates of suicide rates amongst agricultural workers than other occupations. We do see, really high substance use rates as well. Alcoholism we see is reported with heavy use for alcohol amongst farmers is about 38 to 50 percent of farmers in America, which is pretty significant. The other issue we see is farming or agricultural workers also have the highest rate of stress related death. due to disease. So that's a very major concern for us. [00:05:25] Craig Macmillan: It's a major public health health issue. Issue around this. When you said you were , asking these questions, getting this, this data, how is this data being collected? How do we even find out, this is an issue? [00:05:36] Misty Oebel: There's a preliminary study that's coming out of Illinois State University. It's being done by Rudolfi and Berg. They're the ones that are leading a lot of the information on this. And so there's the study that I'm going to quote most because those the numbers that are most they're the most relevant to me because I do work in the Midwest. And so what we're looking at is we're just when we start to see those statistics like the high suicide rates, the high rates of death by stress related disease we start to see the amount of issues we're having with alcohol and opioids and even we're seeing some stimulant use. increase at this point. Those are all things that start to trigger us to do a lot of research and try and figure out what this impact is and why it's happening. [00:06:13] Craig Macmillan: And I'm guessing that is where the MSU extension managing farms for stress program came from. [00:06:18] Misty Oebel: Yes, there was a significant need. The USDA was asking for people to participate in and start providing education and support for farmers because we were noticing that there were some pretty significant issues within the community. [00:06:32] Craig Macmillan: This is one of those things that's true for a lot of areas of public health. How do you. Get to the populations that need the help because people don't always come forward looking for help or there the demand there? People are having issues and they're coming looking for help. What's the what's the the interface? between the farm stress program and the target population [00:06:56] Misty Oebel: Sure. So one of the things that we're doing through our program, we spend as much time as possible in rooms with growers. Speaking at a lot of conferences, speaking at a lot of meetings. We spend as much time as possible, putting our faces out there and trying to build that rapport. And I have yet to speak in front of a group of people on a farm stress and not have people waiting in the wings afterwards to talk to me about that. So there is some face to face connection there. Sure. We also have people who hear about us through like news or hear a podcast or read an article and then they go looking for our website and then they connect with staff that way where they're reaching out to us and saying, I might need a little bit more help. Can you help me with this? So that's pretty common. We also receive phone calls and emails from people all the time who say, Hey, my veterinarian said I should reach out to you or my accountant or, you know, my Miller, it's these people who they have professional established relationships with who are saying there's something that's not right. right? There's something going on here and you need to talk to somebody about it. And so we connect with people that way. But I would say quite honestly, the number one way that we are connecting with people is we get an email or a phone call from someone who loves a farmer. So it's a parent or a spouse or a sibling who says, you know, my, sibling, he has this farm, he's been working on it for a long time. He's really, really depressed and he's not doing anything about it. And we're getting really, really worried about him. So there's a lot of different ways that we come in contact with these farmers. I would say probably the number one way is because somebody noticed something was going on and then they connected them with the appropriate resources at that point. [00:08:32] Craig Macmillan: And that's an important point the role of community and family and our social networks The old see something say something Sometimes it can be hard to do when it's a loved one and probably the most important to do when it's a loved one. [00:08:42] Misty Oebel: I agree with that. Just this year alone, I've talked with six different families as they're surviving the loss of a loved one to suicide. And one of the things that keeps coming up is I noticed something was going on, but I didn't want them to be mad at me. I didn't want them to be upset. I didn't want to hurt their feelings. And it's one of those things that I think we would all rather have somebody be upset with us than to lose that person. And so that's really important. If you see something, say something, notice something, refer them to somebody. It's also really important to start learning about how we can communicate. You know, how to ask open ended questions, how to ask difficult questions and how to practice those active listening skills so that when somebody is answering the questions, you're hearing what they're saying and you're not just waiting for that opportunity to start talking again. Those are all really important. There's trainings that we can offer through MSU Extension. There's an open course that's available on our website. It's called Rural Resilience. It's open to the community and it's free and it's online. So it's, it's really useful, but it's literally trained to teach you how to recognize signs of stress in yourself and how to manage that stress, but then how to recognize signs of stress in other people and then how to communicate with them and have positive communication that could be helpful. [00:09:52] Craig Macmillan: So you mentioned this website. We just talked about how you kind of get in contact with the population. What are some of the other methods that you folks are employing around this to get people help? What is the kind of help that you can provide? [00:10:03] Misty Oebel: Some things that I think are really useful, again, that referral process is really important to us. So if you know about us and then you see somebody that you care about is struggling, please let us know. Through MSU Extension, we offer a lot of other programs that aren't necessarily related to farm stress. So it's not unusual for us to talk to like a field crops educator or a fruit crop educator, and they're coming to us and they're saying, Hey, I'm working with this farmer. And we're seeing these behaviors and I'm talking to them and I'm trying to get them to talk to you. That's pretty common as well. So those are all resources we have available. We offer through the website, we offer a lot of things. And I always tell people if you're interested in the Farm Stress and you want to know more about our program, if you go to our website, and it's usually pretty easy if you type in like MSU Farm Stress. we're usually the first result. We come up pretty quick. And that website has everything. It has articles we've written. It has educational materials. It has those programs like the training materials available as well, that online training. And then it also has a form that you can fill out for our teletherapy program, which is also really beneficial. [00:11:04] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, so I was just gonna ask about that. So you are able to put people or connect people to talk therapy services either tell therapy or face to face. [00:11:12] Misty Oebel: Yeah, it's actually, it's one of the programs we're really proud of. We have this opportunity to provide it to people who are connected to the agricultural community. And it helps because there's a lot of barriers within the farming community to getting, you know, mental health services. You know, most farming is done in rural communities. So we know rural communities have less access to medical services, let alone behavioral health services. We know that then if somebody is interested in going to like counseling, it's going to take them longer to travel to a therapist. And then they're going to sit there and they're going to come back. There's also some stigmas attached still to like mental health issues within rural communities. So you know, when you talk to a farmer and they say, you know, I just don't want them to see my truck sitting in that parking lot. I'm just really concerned about that. I don't want people to think something's going on. And so teletherapy is a resource then that it removes those barriers for them. You can do it from the comfort of your own home on a laptop or a smartphone. They use cameras, so you're still able to see the person. You're able to have a conversation and talk with them. It's completely confidential. And then it's a really great resource then because then It removes the barriers and makes it accessible to everybody. The other piece of that is sometimes one of the barriers is cost. That can be really prohibitive for people, especially farmers who are independently, you know, they work for themselves, so they're not always insured, you know, so this can be a problem. And so MSU extension has the availability. We actually provide for and cover the costs for any agriculture workers within the state of Michigan. At this point, our funding is limited, but we're able to then cover the cost of that. So there's no cost to the farmer either. [00:12:44] Craig Macmillan: How many folks are you getting in contact with? How many folks are taking advantage of this? [00:12:48] Misty Oebel: At the moment, I don't have the numbers. That would be something my program lead would have. I just refer people. It is something that we refer people on a pretty regular basis, probably one to two a week we make a referral or we talk to somebody about sometimes more. So I think that that's a pretty good estimate that we are definitely reaching people this way. [00:13:06] Craig Macmillan: And that actually just reminded me of something else. So is this referring folks to behavioral health professionals that are outside of the MSU system. Is this, is this program funneling folks to other existing folks or is this counselors and therapists and prescribers inside the MSU system? [00:13:23] Misty Oebel: We work with partners. This is one of the things we wanted to do. Like for example, I have a background in counseling psychology. Our program lead has a background in psychology as well. We have the backgrounds in it, but we don't want to be doing therapy because that takes us away from that education piece. So we refer to licensed therapists and it's been really good so far. I think it's been a really great program. We try to look for therapists that have a background in agriculture as well. We recognize the subculture of farming is unique, and we don't want to send them to people who are not going to understand where they're coming from. We want to make sure that there's that background there already. [00:13:56] Craig Macmillan: In your experience so far can you describe what some of the aspects of a agricultural subculture are like? Because I agree with you. I think there's very much some commonalities. And there's a cultural component that's different than other aspects of American life. What are some of the things that you've seen and what are some of the barriers that come from that? [00:14:18] Misty Oebel: Oh, goodness. Yeah, there's a lot. There are things that are so unique to farming that you don't see literally in any other profession. You rarely see people who identify so much with their work as growers and farmers. People who, you know, It's so inherently ingrained into who they are. It's becomes part of their identity. I could use an example. It's kind of how I came into the firm stress work. My dad grew up on a farm and, you know, just a little farm had six brothers and sisters, parents. They worked this farm and his father passed away when he was 17 years old. And within a couple of years, they realized that without. Their father, they really couldn't continue the operation. They started selling equipment, selling animals and leasing the farmland. And when I asked my dad about it, when I was a kid and was asking questions about what it was like when he grew up, one of the things he said that's always stuck with me is he said, you know, it was really strange to be a farm kid without a farm. Even after the farm was gone, he's still so identified with that aspect of his identity that it just. never occurred to him that you're not really a farm kid without a farm mate. He still was. And so that's very unique to farming. There's a legacy aspect of farming that we don't see in every other profession as well. There is an understanding that this is something that we want to continue to go on. And we passed into the family. So kids are growing up knowing there's that expectation that, that This is going to be passed on and we will be taking this over. So there's that legacy aspect of farming. There's the idea that you're in a rural community, so you have fewer neighbors than people in urban areas. So sometimes that can mean that you have really strong community nets, but other times it can mean that you feel really isolated as well. As we're entering a more modern area and we're seeing less individual farmers. I want to say it that way. We're seeing bigger operations, less small farms that can also feel really isolating for farmers because less people understand what they're going through, less people are able to relate to them on that level. There's so many things that are so unique to this subculture. And and they're also just so, so much, when we say salt of the earth, we're literally talking about farmers. They are the people who are out there day to day. They feed us. They're taking care of the land, and they take such pride in their work, and they're so conscientious about that work. I think that's really important to recognize. They're a completely different culture of people, and so I think it's really important. It's really valuable that this work exists just for the fact that this is a culture we can't lose in our country. [00:16:40] Craig Macmillan: Absolutely. And you know, having programs that say, Hey, we we understand you and where you're coming from, I think might help a lot. And I was very impressed by what I've seen online. It's very welcoming the way that it's presented. It can be very daunting to try to reach out for something that you've just assumed no one's going to understand, right? And if you kind of get the sense that there are people there for you who understand who you are and where you're coming from, I think that definitely helps. There are a couple of things that I noticed that I thought were really cool. One thing is the idea of resiliency. A resilient mindset and a productive mindset are two things you have. Materials about developing and maintaining and etc. Can you tell me about those two ideas? I just think that's just so interesting [00:17:24] Misty Oebel: I'm gonna argue, and I'm always gonna argue this, that a resilient mindset is a productive mindset, because a resilient mindset I think we could define it, if we're going to define it just at its simplest terms, it's, it's learned optimism. I think there's already innate optimism when we're talking about agriculture anyway, because otherwise, how do you face a drought one year and then go back and do the same thing the next year? You have to be optimistic. I mean, you just have to, it's innate. But I think that a resilient mindset is that learned optimism, which is we're able to accept that, you know what, things don't always go the way we want them to. Things often happen that we did not hope for. We face uncontrollable circumstances all the time, especially in farming, when you're dealing with weather or, you know, pests, things like that. So we have to be able to accept when things aren't going well and still be able to move forward with the idea that things are gonna be okay, even though things aren't going well. Now they're gonna be okay and we're gonna get through it. I've survived everything up to this point. I'm gonna survive this. I'm gonna go on to the next thing, and it might look different, but it could still be good. And I think that's that resilient mindset that we talk about. And there's so many benefits of a resilient mindset. You know it decreases depression and anxiety. We see better physical health because our cortisol and adrenaline levels, those stress hormones are lower. We also see again that ability to move forward and to be adaptive and to be more focused on problem solving than getting stuck on just what the problem is. So that resilient mindset, I always argue this resiliency is is productive. If you're not resilient, you're going to struggle and you're going to get stuck. And then you're not going to be very productive. [00:19:02] Craig Macmillan: I'm gonna call on you as a practitioner now? What are some examples of techniques or tools or things that I can that I can do that. They will help promote this in myself [00:19:11] Misty Oebel: The two most important aspects in resiliency is making sure you have that community. So making sure you're building a community, you're finding people who support you, who understand you and who care about you. That's the number one thing that is actually the most influential factor we have found in resiliency and whether somebody is going to bounce back from a difficult situation. Community social connection. We actually find isolation is really, really dangerous. It increases depression and anxiety, it increases cardiovascular issues, and suicidal ideation goes up when people feel lonely. So, community is number one. The second thing I always argue is really focusing on that emotional health piece. And we can do that in a lot of different ways. But one of the simplest ways is to start practicing those mindfulness techniques. And sometimes when I say that people are like, Oh, that's that hippie, dippy stuff. And I don't want to do that. You know but what we're really talking about there, did they just put a name to it? It's just being engaged. It's just being present in your moment. Cause sometimes we get into the habit of. I'm stressed and I've got a lot to do and we get into this autopilot mode and we just keep working and we plug away at it and we feel really good because we just keep going. But when we're doing that, we also have to ignore a lot of other things that are going on and we're not really aware of what's happening. So practicing mindfulness. Because practicing mindfulness allows us to be engaged enough to be aware of what's going well so we can be grateful. Gratefulness is really great for you know, resiliency. The other thing that it does is it allows us to notice when things aren't going well, and that allows us to do that problem solving and be like, okay, what can I fix? And then if something can't be fixed, okay, I can accept this can't be fixed, it's out of my control. And that's also really important for resiliency. And then that third piece to when we're really aware of what our moment is like it allows us to be aware of our emotions and to recognize them as they're happening and to process them instead of doing the thing where we like are just shoving those emotions down because I'm busy. So I'm going to shove it down and then I'm going to keep working and then another emotion flies in and you know what? I don't want to deal with that right now either. So I'm going to shove that down too until we blow up because we have just this overwhelming flood of emotions we've been ignoring. And so when we're practicing mindfulness, it allows us to process them as they're happening and they never get to that huge overwhelming stage. And we can practice mindfulness in a lot of really simple ways. It's not complicated. It's not something that you have to go through a class or something to learn how to do. You know, it's a journaling. I'm going to sit down every night and write down what went well today and what didn't. It is meditation or prayer breathing exercises, really, really simple breathing exercises that just make you pause. and stop and notice what is happening around you and in your body. That's it. [00:21:53] Craig Macmillan: And I'm guessing You're communicating these ideas in various forms. I mean, there must be print form, there must be video form, there must be face to face form. I mean, are you doing clinics, trainings, newsletters? What are all the different avenues that you're using to communicate these very, very, very practical, very specific things? What routes are you using to get those to people ? [00:22:14] Misty Oebel: Like I said before, if there is a room with growers in it, we try to be in that room. We, we speak at every opportunity that we possibly can because we do want to make sure the message is getting out. We participate in podcasts. We write articles, we write a lot of articles. We are actually in the process of re updating a lot of our program materials right now to make sure they're all fresh and all the information is new and current. So we do that. Those are all available online. The training programs that are available online. We talk to families who are in the middle of it. And so we talk to people on the phone. It's not unusual for us to spend an afternoon at a farmer's kitchen table. talking with them and figuring out what their next steps are. Literally any avenue. So we have all of these print materials that are available, a lot of stuff available through our website, but we are also people who are available. Should there be a need for that as well? [00:23:03] Craig Macmillan: Something else that I noticed that I thought was great is, you know, obviously farm stress doesn't just affect the adults that are involved. It also affects youth. And like you talked about this generationality aspect and how important it is. Just like you said, farm kid without a farm. It's farm kid. You know, that's part of the kid. Can you tell us a little bit about that and how that's fit into your program? [00:23:23] Misty Oebel: Yeah. That same study that I was talking about earlier by Rodolphe and Berg, as those numbers have come out, they also did study on farm youth. And what they found is that the numbers for depression are the same. About 60 percent of farm youth meet the criteria for general depression. We see slightly lower on generalized anxiety, it's about 45%. The number that I find really interesting, I want to know more about, is 62 percent are reporting the, the diagnostic criteria for separation anxiety, which is very, very interesting. Yeah, that one kind of throws me. I don't know where that's coming from, but it's really interesting. And I'd like to know more about that one. What this tells us is that as parents and adults, we're not doing as good as we think we are and hiding how we're doing. It tells me we're not doing as good as we think we are in hiding, you know, when stress is occurring, when we're depressed, when we're anxious. Kids are pretty intuitive and they pick up on that. I know my kids have called me out on stuff like that before and like you weren't hiding it as well as you think you were. So that happens. I think there's also when we go back to it, there's that legacy aspect of it where there's an understanding that if this farm is going to continue, somebody is going to step up, somebody is going to take over it. And so you see really young kids who start assuming the responsibility of the problems. well before they really need to do so. So that is absolutely impacting them as well. I think it makes it really, really, really important for parents to be paying attention for those signs of stress in their kids as well as in signs for themselves and their neighbors. They need to be paying attention. Are they showing mood changes? You know, are they suddenly really irritable? Are they having problems sleeping? Am I seeing differences in their appetites? Are they shutting down? Are we not talking as much as we used to talk? There's a lot of things that we need to pay attention to when it comes to our kids just to make sure that they're okay and so that we're able to connect them with the support that they need earlier rather than later. [00:25:13] Craig Macmillan: Is there one thing, just one piece of advice or one observation that you would recommend to our listeners around this topic? [00:25:20] Misty Oebel: Can I go with two? Is that ok? [00:25:22] Craig Macmillan: Two is great, do two. [00:25:23] Misty Oebel: Okay. One of the first things I want to come back to. It's something that we've talked about a few different times. Is this idea of the generational aspect and the legacy piece? Because that is absolutely a barrier in farmers in, seeking behavioral health support. There is kind of this idea of like, well, my dad was a farmer and he never saw a therapist and my grandpa was a farmer and he never saw a therapist. So is there something wrong with me now if I need additional support? And what we kind of forget is that depression and anxiety are not new. And if you're facing it, your dad probably had it too. Your grandpa probably had it too, but they were struggling silently and never got the support that they needed. And I think that when we're looking at generational stuff, we always try to do it a little bit better with each generation. We want the farm to be a little bit bigger, a little bit cleaner. We want to make sure that our processes are a little bit smoother. With each generation, it gets a little better and we do the same thing with parenting. You know, we want to be a slightly better parent to our kids than our parents were to us, and we hope that they do the same thing with their Children. So I think that makes it really important that we recognize that just because past generations weren't receiving help, that doesn't mean we shouldn't receive help. It actually makes it more important because we're trying to prioritize that, and we're trying to make those changes in the family. So that's the number one thing I can think of. And then the other thing, this is something I tell farmers all the time is the growers and the farmers that I know are very, very conscientious when it comes to caring for their land. And their animals and their crops and buildings and equipment, and they invest a lot of time and money into the maintenance of all of those things, because their assets but I'm always going to argue that the farmer is the most important asset in any farm. And so I really feel very strongly that it's important that we prioritize caring for ourselves and we recognize that self care is not selfish. It's very important. If you're the most important asset on your farm, you've got to make sure that you're taking care of yourself. [00:27:21] Craig Macmillan: I think that is a fantastic observation. Absolutely. Where can people find out more about you and more about the Farm Stress Management Program? [00:27:30] Misty Oebel: I'm always going to recommend you go to our website. Not only do we have all of those great resources, but you can connect with staff through that website. We have all of our pictures on there. I'm on there. Dr. Remington Rice is our program lead. He is phenomenal. He has his information even in multiple places on the site. So please reach out to us if you have any questions, thoughts, concerns want more information, that's the best way to get ahold of us. [00:27:53] Craig Macmillan: Fantastic. Our guest today has been Misty Oebel. She's a health and farm stress extension educator with Michigan State University Extension. Thanks for being on the podcast. This is one of those areas we don't talk about very much. And I'm really glad that we did. And I think the work you guys are doing is fantastic. And I hope that this model gets picked up in other states. We see it more widely applied because farming is important. And because farming is important, that means farmers are important. Just like you said, it's our asset. So thanks for being on podcast, Misty. [00:28:22] Misty Oebel: Thank you so much for having me. [00:28:23] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Today's podcast was brought to you by vineyard professional services. Vineyard professional services works throughout the central coast of California, providing vineyard management, financial planning, vineyard development, equipment services, and a range of consulting services to wineries, growers, and investors. Established in 1997. VPS has leadership in San Louis Obispo, Santa Barbara . San Benito and Monterey counties. Their primary focus is effectively growing vineyard assets for quality and client profitability. Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Misty. Tools on how to cultivate a productive mindset. And managing stress on the farm. If you liked the show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts@vineyardteam.org/podcast. And you can reach us at podcastatvineyardteam.org. Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team.   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

What does it mean to farm sustainably? Sustainable farming is a collection of practices spanning from water and energy conservation, to soil health and biodiversity, and social equity. Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values. There are so many examples of sustainability in action to point to right outside of your window: Native landscaping: minimal irrigation and maintenance needs. Cover crops: promote soil health and provide refuge for beneficial insects. Alternative energy sources: reduce reliance on fossil fuels. Owl boxes & raptor perches: birds of prey feast on vertebrate pests. One topic that sustainable farmers get asked about often is pest management. In this Sustainable Story Marketing Tip, learn how Presqu'ile Vineyards utilizes technology to manage bird pests in a more environmentally and economically sustainable way. Safely Keeping Birds at Bay Birds like finches and starlings are common vineyard pests. They damage fruit and canopies, and will even create nests in the vines. To protect their crops, vineyards typically use bird netting. While effective, netting comes with un-sustainable downsides: they break down in the sun, installation and removal necessitates a lot of labor, and they create waste over time, as nets must be replaced every few years. Presqu'ile Vineyard knew there was a more sustainable way to handle their unwelcomed feathered visitors. In 2023, they installed five bird lasers. Spooked by the beams of light, the birds stay away. But if the light beams repeat a consistent pattern, the birds will ignore the lasers and reenter the vineyard. To maintain the perceived threat, the laser beams are programmed for a variety of motions. As for the effectiveness of the lasers, Andrew Heilbrun, Vineyard Manager, says that “monitoring bird pressure visually is pretty easy. We saw very little damage this past season after installing the lasers.” On top of serving their main purpose as an effective method for bird abatement, Andrew notes that their new laser systems offer several other benefits: Removes tripping hazard for employees. Doesn't affect non-target animals. Reduces waste. More financially sustainable. The bird lasers at Presqu'ile Vineyard have proven to be a Safe Pest Management strategy with benefits that touch all 3 P's of sustainability: People, Planet, and Prosperity. Tell Your Sustainable Story We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program. This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing yours today!       Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team. Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Apply for SIP Certified Wine Marketing Tips eNewsletter Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic What's your Sustainable Story? Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member

To understand fungicide resistance in the vineyard, a group of United States scientists formed the Fungicide Resistance Assessment Mitigation and Extension (FRAME). Sarah Lowder, Assistant Professor and Viticulture Extension Specialist at the University of Georgia describes a nationwide sampling project to test for resistance markers. To get samples, they are promoting a new collection method called glove sampling. This process leverages the time that fieldworkers are in the field running their hands through the vines. They collect samples by rubbing their gloved hands on a cotton swab and sending the sample to the lab. Research shows that glove sampling results are very similar to spore trapping, a process that samples the air flowing through the vineyard. Resources:         117: Grapevine Mildew Control with UV Light 219: Intelligent Sprayers to Improve Fungicide Applications and Save Money A Rapid Glove-Based Inoculum Sampling Technique to Monitor Erysiphe necator in Commercial Vineyard Fisherbrand™ Plastic Handled Cotton Swabs and Applicators Grape FRAME Networks Glove swab sampling tutorial for collecting grape powdery mildew (video) Glove Swab sampling tutorial for collecting grape powdery mildew - silent (video) Identification of Putative SDHI Target Site Mutations in the SDHB, SDHC, and SDHD Subunits of the Grape Powdery Mildew Pathogen Erysiphe necator Rapid sampling technique to monitor Erysiphe necator more effective than visual scouting Sarah Lowder Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript 2024-07-04_235_Sarah Lowder - glove sampling for mildew_Otter [00:00:00] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Sarah Lawder. She is Viticulture Extension Specialist and an Assistant Professor in the Department of Horticulture at the University of Georgia. And today we're going to talk about some exciting new advancements around monitoring for powdery mildew and other related topics. Welcome to the podcast, Sarah. [00:00:16] Sarah Lowder: Thank you very much, Craig. I'm very excited to be here. [00:00:18] Craig Macmillan: First though, I want to start with something I just found out about that applies to this, and that is the grape frame networks. Can you tell us exactly what that is and kind of how it came about and what it does? Okay. Thanks, Craig. [00:00:29] Sarah Lowder: Absolutely. Yeah, the FRAME Network is part of a USDA SCRI grant. This is a project that was funded several years ago, I believe in 2017, as part of the Specialty Crop Research Initiative Project System. And FRAME Networks literally stands for Fungicide Resistance Assessment Mitigation and Extension. networks. And so this was a grant that was really intended to look and learn so much more about how fungicide resistance works in the vineyard for powdery mildew specifically. But this was a group, a very large group of scientists from all across the country from a wide range of different disciplines looking into how we can better address fungicide resistance for vineyards and for powdery mildew specifically. [00:01:12] Craig Macmillan: But there's also applications either now or in the future for other fungal diseases like downy mildew, et cetera. [00:01:18] Sarah Lowder: Absolutely. Yep. They are currently working on getting a new iteration of this grant, Frame 2 as it were that will hopefully be able to address also resistance in Downy Mildew and Botrytis Bunch Rot. [00:01:29] Craig Macmillan: Fantastic. This is really exciting because what I saw was that there are people at Washington State, Oregon State in California, and then on the East Coast. So hopefully this work will continue. What exactly kinds of things does Frame do? [00:01:45] Sarah Lowder: Yeah, so we had a multi pronged approach for this project. One of the big parts that I was a part of is looking at the assessment of the fungicide resistance. So one of the things that we did was collect powdery mildew from all across the country, from states and vineyards all over, all over the place, and then look for different fungicide resistance markers in that mildew. That can hopefully help us much more quickly assess if we have fungicide resistance present in a sample. One of the big groups of fungicides that we looked at was the QOI fungicides, the Sturbulurins, also sometimes they're called or the FRAC Group 11, with FRAC is the Fungicide Resistance Action Committee. Is what the FRAC group would be for that and those just kind of group your different fungicides based on the mode of action. So how they work on the different diseases that they're attempting to control. And so we were looking at this group, this group 11, the QOI products which operate by attaching to the mitochondria, so the powerhouse of the cell. And just preventing them from being able to produce energy and so the, the spores die and you don't get any more growth of that disease. But because it's one of those products that works like a binding site if you get resistance presence it just means that your fungicide can no longer attached to the disease and then it can grow in the presence of that fungicide and then you can even no matter how much you spray that product it can still continue to grow. By looking at there's one particular mutation that occurs that causes that resistance in this group of products and we're able to run a test much more quickly than you can otherwise do a lot of different fungicide resistance testing And tell whether or not you had QOI resistant or sensitive Mildew in your field so you knew whether or not you could use that product or not [00:03:35] Craig Macmillan: What about frac group three? That's another one that we have known Resistance issues with the demethylation inhibitors. Is that part of the project as well? [00:03:43] Sarah Lowder: Absolutely Absolutely, the DMIs demethylation inhibitors, absolutely, the FRAC3 Group 3 are a group of products that have a little bit more complicated unfortunately of a resistance pattern rather than just having one particular mutation. There, there are a bunch of different things going on in those products. But we do have a marker that can help us get a sense for the resistance. It's not as necessarily reliable as the QOI. Frack Group 11 product resistant testing, but we can test that as well and give us an idea of whether or not we might have resistance to DMIs present in the field as well. [00:04:19] Craig Macmillan: Are there other frack groups that have potential or have found some resistant populations coming down the pike? [00:04:28] Sarah Lowder: Absolutely. Anything that has a very specific mode of action really has some potential for having a resistance develop in a population. [00:04:36] Craig Macmillan: Great. [00:04:38] Sarah Lowder: We're, we're looking at some of the modes of action. We have not heard as much of field failures due to resistance to a lot of other products, but we wanted to, like, kind of get a, get a jump on looking for some of those other modes of action to see if we can develop. Test to be able to monitor that, monitor that much more quickly before resistance becomes as much of an issue. And we were able to get a lot of that information for like the SDHI groups, which is the group 7 products. Although again, we're not really hearing too much yet of any field failures for powdery mildew control from the SDHIs. As well as looking much more into some of the mechanisms for how group 13, quinoxafen how well how the resistance might work in that system. All of those are stuff that we were able to do because of the Frame Network project team. [00:05:26] Craig Macmillan: That's really great. I hope that we can continue that. That's really important work. In order to do that kind of thing, you need to get samples. And you and your colleagues are promoting a new method for monitoring for powdery mildew and collecting, I guess, ASCA spores, I would imagine, is what you're collecting. Tell me about it. There's videos on YouTube. It's really exciting. [00:05:47] Sarah Lowder: Absolutely. [00:05:47] Craig Macmillan: It involves a glove. [00:05:49] Sarah Lowder: Indeed, we call them glove swabs, which is one of the projects that I was able to help lead as a part of the system. Because you hit the nail on the head when you are trying to monitor fungicide resistance. The first step that you have to do is actually find the mildew. And you want to find this before you have a control problem. You want to find it while there's still not very much mildew present in the field. We looked at, we looked at a bunch of different ways. Not everything worked very well. But one of the ideas that we had was, oh, We have vineyard workers moving throughout the field all the time. Could we potentially use these people who are already in the field doing normal stuff to also potentially collect powdery mildew? And we found that as you're moving through the vineyard, as you're moving your hands along the canopy, you're able to collect powdery mildew. Conidia spores, actually, it's generally, it's their summer spores. are collecting and you're able to take a, just a cotton swab. So many of us have taken a COVID test that you've had to stick up your nose. It's a very similar, similar swab that you take with your hands. And you can stick that in a tube and send it to the lab for processing. This system worked, I think, way better than any of us were expecting it to. It was actually much better than trying to go out there and look for it physically. And you can do it much faster because it's just literally, you can be walking through the vineyard with your hands in the canopy, take a swab. and collect it, and you can find that so much faster if you're already having to do a lab test for that product. [00:07:16] Craig Macmillan: And also the potential here is that, let's say I've got a crew out and we're doing a shoot thinning in the spring, so they're handling the canopy all the time, we could swab some gloves and then send that out to be tested and get an idea what's out there. [00:07:27] Sarah Lowder: Absolutely. Absolutely. And as you're already testing for whether the field is out there, you can also use the same test to tell whether or not you have resistant mildew to the QI fungicides. [00:07:38] Craig Macmillan: Is this quantitative? [00:07:41] Sarah Lowder: So, it is run on a quantitative quantitative PCR. So, in theory, it does give you some information on how much mildew is present. In the QI QPCR test, in the test that tests for the fungicide resistance pattern, it tests a piece of DNA in the mitochondria, and you can technically have different numbers of things. Mitochondria per cell, individual cell, and so the, the quantitative, it does give you that information, but it's not necessarily the most reliable information. So as, as a scientist, I'm always hesitant to say that, oh, you can get quantitative information, but it, in theory, it does give you a little bit of information about how many spores at least you were able to collect. You can tell a little bit of that information. [00:08:21] Craig Macmillan: Can it tell me something along the lines of, I can go out and sample at the very beginning of the season, maybe even post bud break, and say, oh, we have nothing there yet, and then come by later and test and say, oh, we have something there now. Is there a qualitative aspect to it? [00:08:41] Sarah Lowder: Absolutely. So we tested it and compared the glove swabs to visual scouting to compare it to someone actually physically going out and looking and found that the glove swabs were much more sensitive. They were able to find the powdered mildew much faster, and also much sooner than the OR than our visual eyes were able to do So. But we also tested it in comparison to impaction spore traps. So these are tests that actually had come out of a lot of the lab that I worked in the foliar pathology lab with Walt Mahaffey at the USDA for a couple years previously with like Lindsay Thiessen that they were able to test these impaction spore traps which sample the air that flows through the vineyard. We're collecting that many of the vineyards in the Willamette Valley of Oregon which we did a lot of the testing in that area as well as in Areas like Napa, California have a bunch of these spore traps present that we were able to test it in comparison to these spore traps, which have been used pretty widely in the system. And what we found was that our glove swabs were showing us very similar information to these impaction spore traps which was really cool because a lot of these growers absolutely do use already these impaction spore traps to look at when they're going to initiate their fungicide spray programs. So, in theory, yes. You could absolutely potentially use these glove swabs as a fungicide initiation indicator. [00:10:01] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, that's what I was getting at, and that's, that's a really exciting technology. Because obviously we're trying to control the amount of material we put out there, and obviously part of resistance management is being careful what you put out and when. And so having a good idea of what the timing should be, I think, is really important. And then of course, as everybody knows, People who listen to this podcast know, by the time you see it, it's too late, baby. [00:10:24] Sarah Lowder: Absolutely. [00:10:24] Craig Macmillan: You know, it's, it's, it's, you're chasing a ghost. And so, here's, here's our Ghostbuster tool, where we can catch that ghost before before it comes too much of a problem. Now you said, send these off for, to a lab for analysis. What what labs are we talking about? [00:10:39] Sarah Lowder: The initial frame grant project is technically at a, has come to an end and so the funding that originally funded a lot of this testing has ended, but now we're able to supply all of these protocols and testing materials and stuff to a lot of the different private labs elsewhere. So I know one of the private labs that does the impaction trap testing. service in the William Valley of Oregon has taken over that process, as well as I know a bunch of different labs like I know at UGA here, where I am currently, they have some tools and able to do some of those testings or do some of those tests as well with the qPCR. And so even if you, a lab where you send a lot of your materials, if they happen to have a qPCR present and you're strongly interested in doing it, you can talk to them to see if they might potentially be willing to add this into their repertoire. [00:11:24] Craig Macmillan: So, this technology is starting to make it out into the world of commercial plant pathology. [00:11:29] Sarah Lowder: Yes. [00:11:30] Craig Macmillan: I may have a plant pathology lab that I already work with, I can talk to them, I can make some phone calls, and for instance, a commercial lab in Oregon, they're a business, so they still may do samples from California or from Washington or from Ohio. [00:11:44] Sarah Lowder: Yeah, potentially. [00:11:45] Craig Macmillan: It's not limited by territory. [00:11:46] Sarah Lowder: Correct. You can send these samples and as long as you're not leaving your samples out in the sun and in the heat for a long period of time they can be shipped off elsewhere as well. [00:11:55] Craig Macmillan: Where do you see this technology going? What's, what's the future here? We, we, we've just kind of touched on it a little bit, but what, in your, when you close your eyes and imagine the long term impact of your work, where do you see this kind of thing going? [00:12:08] Sarah Lowder: One, I would love to see a lot of this information being used more regularly to be able to test this a little faster. And eventually, one day, we may be able to test for all of these different resistance genes, all of these different resistance patterns within the same sample. So you could be like, okay as a normal part of my practice, I'm going out and taking these glove swabs or whatever else that I'm looking to test. Even if I don't use a glove swab, but I can come in and take my powdery mildew sample and send it off to the lab and get a, just a score sheet of exactly what fungicide products could be used or could be not used. That would be really awesome, because no one wants to buy a product that it's not going to work, and no one wants to put a product out that's not going to work for any reasons, environmentally or financially. In the wallet or just for labor purposes. It's just a win, win, win situation. If you know, you don't have to use a product and instead you could choose a different one. [00:13:01] Craig Macmillan: Oh, this might be a related, very practical matter. So gloves, touching vines, no problem. I can have workers. I could have actually my VIT tech go down a row and then swipe the canopy. Where do I get the swabs because we're talking about something has to be a sterile protected swab, just like the COVID test swab. Where do I get those? [00:13:17] Sarah Lowder: Yeah so a lot of the times, or at least for a lot of this test that we did originally they were groups that we sent out, or like just kits that we would send out to the different cooperating practices. But essentially, it is literally the same tool. It's a polystyrene cotton swab tip and we normally will put them into these little half tubes that kind of keep their tip protected, and then you will stick it back into the plastic wrap that it came in, and then wrap it up so that it stays more protected. But it is, it is literally the same tool that you often will use for those COVID tests, which made it really hard to get that right at the beginning of the pandemic. [00:13:54] Craig Macmillan: Where, where can I get them? Where can I order them from? [00:13:56] Sarah Lowder: So I can send a link for the type of material that we're looking for. And then you can shop around for the same tip at a couple different locations and find the best price. [00:14:06] Craig Macmillan: That'd be perfect. We'll put a link to that in the show notes. So folks, you can go check that out and find the materials that you need. And then you can also shop around for the labs and see who's doing what. And again, if a lab is getting a lot of phone calls. That's going to encourage them to adopt this new technology. What is kind of the, the current state of the nation, if you will, in terms of fungicide resistance, what are the hot new topics, what's getting funded? What are people working on and where are they working on it? [00:14:33] Sarah Lowder: Fungicide resistance is certainly a hot topic that has a lot of different research happening in a lot of different areas. I could literally fill your entire podcast probably with talking about this topic. One thing that I'm very excited about is to hopefully see this Frame 2 iteration happen that is, being submitted for funding for this next funding cycle this year, but it is looking to hopefully also add in testing for downy mildew and betritis bunch rot, which are also two big diseases that can cause a lot of issues. Especially now that I'm over here in Georgia, I'm very excited to hopefully get to test much more of the downy mildew which can be quite the struggle in the vineyard. And we're getting much more information on a lot of the other modes of action that we're working with. I'm excited to see a lot of the information come out about some of the quinoxephins. Some of this information that we have started to work on and we haven't seen much field resistance to these products yet. But if we continue to use them, then they may still pop up. And so hopefully making sure that we can get ahead of the game for these other products. [00:15:37] Craig Macmillan: I'm very happy about that because I'm old enough to remember when the DMIs came out and it was like, Oh my god, it's a secret. It's the silver bullet. We're never gonna have to use sulfur again. Yay, and then it was literally within a couple of years they failed in some places. Now, the Fungicide Resistance Action Committee is publishing better information, more information, more accessible information every year about what's new about the different code groups. And they're also now putting a category in, or they have for a long time, but they have a category in there about the potential for resistance. So they'll say, yeah, there's known resistant populations for this. This one has got high potential, even if we haven't found it yet. And that's directing research in that direction. And I think that's really important that we stay ahead of these things. things, looking at where the potential is, as well as where there's known issues. So that's really fantastic. This is going on at what OSU, MSU, I think, Tim Miles in Michigan Walt Mahaffey in Oregon. I think Washington state. [00:16:35] Sarah Lowder: Mm hmm. Michelle Moyer is the viticulture specialist at Washington state university, who's been the project director for this project, led with Walt Mahaffey, who is the foliar plant pathologist at the USDA located in Corvallis. the horticultural crops units. And then a whole, a whole group of scientists from across the nation. There are people at UC Davis. There's people at Michigan State University. Even while I worked on this project in my role at Oregon State, I'm at with the USDA in Corvallis, Oregon. I'm now here at the University of Georgia working with Phil Brannon, who was the University of Georgia, Scientist working on this project and who actually was the person that convinced me to actually apply for the job that I currently now sit in. [00:17:20] Craig Macmillan: That's great. You know, we do still have a little bit of time left. This is a huge topic, but I found it interesting as I was doing research on you and looking at your publications. One of the things you've been involved in is research on collective action. and information transfer among growers related to disease management. And I am really fascinated by this topic. My background is in sociology. So my background is in people, talking to people, doing people stuff. And as we know, things, not just diseases, but also insects like mealybugs, etc. It's an area wide issue. And what you do or do not do on one farm affects what happens or doesn't happen on another farm. Can you tell us just a little bit about what that research was like, what you did? [00:17:57] Sarah Lowder: Absolutely. So that was really coming from how do we branch out from some of the fungicide resistance? Like how do we use a lot of this information that we are getting? One of the things that we were realizing is that some of the vineyards that we were working with, that we were getting some of these tests from, even organic vineyards who were not using any, they weren't using the QIs. They also weren't using any other synthetic product. We're still seeing sometimes very high rates. of the fungicide resistance to these different products. And what we really found was that a lot of the information that we were able to look at was really so much more useful on that larger scale when we were able to look at all of this data in the aggregate. And so one of the things, which I'm going to talk about my experience with the Oregon State, in the William Valley Vineyard growers especially, that they took all of this information, that they took the data, powdery mildew information that we are getting from their impaction spore traps. They were taking the fungicide resistance data that we were giving them, and they were sharing all this information with each other. And we're able to say, Hey, oh, I was using this product, you know, on my field this year and next year. And then I started to see a lot of issues. You didn't see it immediately, but you saw it pretty closely after I did, even though you followed the patterns elsewhere. And so they were able to take a lot of that information and aggregate it and share together and be able to use that much more quickly. I didn't talk too much about how much of the fungicide resistance that we were seeing. We definitely did see some differences in some of the states. that we were looking at, although it was generally pretty high rates of resistance to the QI products across the nation. That degree was less in a lot of the places in Oregon where a lot of this information started and where they shared a lot of this information from the get go. So one of the things that we wanted to look at was how does this information come across and then what do people do with that information? Absolutely. So when you get into the area wide management, when you, when you start talking about it, you're like, okay, while I manage my property, Unfortunately, a lot of these diseases aren't just staying on my property. If we could, if we could keep everyone isolated, then we wouldn't have to talk about a lot of this information management information management across all these different regions. What do we do once we have that knowledge and once we're sharing all of these spores back and forth even if we don't necessarily want to share that. But if we can also share some of the information on what we're all seeing, we can all manage it a little better. Even if it's just as simple as like, Oh, my sprayer was not calibrated correctly and I'm starting to see More powdery mildew in my vineyard blocks. If you communicate that to your neighbor, then they may be able to increase their spray intervals a little bit more in order to not lose their crop because they're going to have to deal with a much higher crop load. And they could be looking at the spore information. They could be looking at any of these monitoring effects that they're collecting. But if you can know that a source population nearby is going to be pushing more spores more readily, that's even before it's hitting your vineyard. So it's getting that information even a little faster than you would with some of the spore monitoring efforts, if that makes sense. [00:21:01] Craig Macmillan: That does make sense. And so, in terms of the collecting the information, this doesn't just have to be glove swabs or, you know, impaction traps. This simply can be people saying, hey, I'm seeing mildew pressure that's pretty intense, or I'm seeing it earlier, or whatever. Other people are saying, I'm not seeing it yet, but I know I'm downwind of you, for instance. Or, I know that my conditions are still very conducive, so I might be able to, like you said, increase my spray intervals, maybe check my calibration, check my coverage. It's a, it's a heads up. Basically from from one grower to another. How is this information shared? [00:21:34] Sarah Lowder: So there are lots of different ways that this information is shared One of the ways that we wanted to look is at just what did people find the most useful when they were Looking for different information on either new diseases or old diseases or all that kind of thing And some of the stuff that we were finding was that people really found their colleagues, just those person to person conversations that they were having to be the most useful information when managing any diseases. And while people certainly found, which I was happy to hear, that people found their viticulture specialists, their extension agents, to be extremely useful when helping to find this information, they really were still, the the most important part was their colleagues and their neighbors, the other growers in the area. And so you can look at different ways that people communicate, which we, one of the things that we did was look at a communication network. So just exactly how is that information flowing in the system? And there are certain people, which this may not necessarily be a huge surprise. But there are certain people that a lot of people go to, to learn more information about stuff, especially as someone that is looking at a region and be like, Ooh, I have one, this super great new tool, mate, I have something even cooler than the glove swabs. And now I need to tell. the growers about it. I need to see if we can actually use this in a commercial way that'll be viable. You can go to some of these more influential individuals within a region and then hopefully see that information spread a little bit more quickly than it might otherwise if you just kind of picked your people based on just where they were located or even just the closest ones you get your hands on. As it were. [00:23:09] Craig Macmillan: Gotta find the node. Gotta find the hub, [00:23:11] Sarah Lowder: find the node. . [00:23:14] Craig Macmillan: This is an interesting topic to me because one of the things that I think we've lost from a cultural standpoint is the coffee shop. People who are now retired growers have talked to me about how you're on your farm. You know, before sunup you get things running, you get going. People are doing what they're doing. Everything's fine. And then you go to the coffee shop about nine o'clock and everybody's there. And that's where the information would get transferred. And this goes back to the, you know, basic farming decades ago. We don't do that anymore. What we do is we're there at Sunup before Sunup, we get things running, we get done, then we're back in the truck and we're on the phone and we're going to the next ranch and we're not connecting with people. In that kind of social conversational way, the way that we used to. And so hopefully we can revive some of that either through meetings or through internet or through just simply networks, like you said, if there's a relationship, you can just simply call somebody and say, Hey, I'm starting to see this and hopefully we can build those social networks and see the collective benefits [00:24:12] Sarah Lowder: and find more ways to bring us together. [00:24:15] Craig Macmillan: Find more ways to bring us together in a world that seems to be forcing us apart, right? No. On this topic of managing diseases and monitoring diseases, is there one thing you'd recommend to our listeners around this? [00:24:27] Sarah Lowder: There are lots of different diseases in lots of different ways that a lot of things are managed and we talked a little bit about Collective action in the sense that a lot of times some diseases are more effectively managed on a much wider scale than an individual Farming unit so like you could do the best practices in your own vineyard but if you have Someone next door doing lawn best practices that could just mitigate all of the hard work that you just put into it. But it's hard to say anything on the large scale other than the fact that Talking more with those around you has a much wider benefit for disease management on all scales And just also grow better cultural practices, better more information on learning. I may be someone in the academia realm, but I always think that the more you can learn, the better. And your neighbors are in the same game as you are, especially in vineyards. I feel like the mantra of the rising tide lifts all boats is very much in effect. [00:25:24] Craig Macmillan: So we can learn from extension and from all that great stuff that's out there, but we can also learn from each other. Sarah, where can people find out more about you and your work? [00:25:31] Sarah Lowder: Yeah, so now that I'm over here at the University of Georgia, where I'm most easy to find is through the Viticulture Extension website. It's called the UGA Viticulture Blog. We post a lot of information relevant to those growers in the southeast, but we also have a blog posting that sometimes will go out via email if you would like to sign up for that, backlog of what we've posted. It's the easiest way to find me. I'm all around the University of Georgia system. [00:26:00] Craig Macmillan: Fantastic. Thank you so much. Our guest today was Sarah Lowdre. She's a Denture and Viticulture Specialist and Assistant Professor in the Department of Horticulture at the University of Georgia. Thanks for being here. This was a great conversation. [00:26:10] Sarah Lowder: Thank you, Greg. I had a great time. Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

Your tasting room may be the most customer-facing facet of your wine business. This makes it the perfect setting to display your dedication to sustainability. Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values. On a recent Vineyard Team staff trip to Oso Libre, we immediately noticed how they showcased their passion for sustainability through out the property. By providing visual cues at your tasting room, you can let your guests know that the wine they sip is more than delicious – it's environmentally and socially responsible. This Marketing Tip will inspire you to share your commitment in fun, decorative ways. I highly recommend going to the show notes and clicking on “Sustainable Tasting Room Tips” to see pictures of all the great signage we found at Oso Libre. Sign Sustainably Oso Libre highlights their sustainable certification right from the front gate with a custom sign. Their passion is seeded throughout every area of the property. From sustainable signs posted on the fence line to informational pieces at the tasting room bar, every wall has a message that connects guests with what sustainability means to Oso Libre. Consider where your guests meander to at your property and how you can place signage to tell them more about your brand. At Oso Libre, curious tasters are enticed by a plaque as they walk along the vineyard rows to the tasting room front door. This sign defines the seven values of sustainability; Social Responsibility, Water Management, Safe Pest Management, Energy Efficiency, Habitat, Business, and Always Evolving. By creating a piece of in-depth material, you welcome your customers to dig a little deeper and learn exactly how your brand embodies sustainability. Philanthropy is very important to Oso Libre's owners Chris and Linda. A sign in the shade by the outdoor seating shares information about their Por Vida Foundation. Proceeds from various winery activities like events and bottle sales are donated to cancer research, veterans' services, animal services, and family support programs. Consider how you give back to your community and tell your customers about it. They will love learning how you take care of our most valuable resource - our people. Tell Your Sustainable Story We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program. This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing yours today!       Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team. Resources: *** Sustainable Tasting Room Tips *** *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Apply for SIP Certified Wine Center of Effort's Sustainable Story feature in Grape and Wine Magazine Marketing Tips eNewsletter Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic What's your Sustainable Story? Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member

The goal of the NASA Acres Consortium is to bridge the gap between space and farms to create sustainable food systems now and in the future. Yu Jiang, Assistant Professor of Systems Engineering and Data Analytics, School of Integrative Plant Science Horticulture Section Cornell AgriTech explains how this group of researchers is using land-based robots to ground truth data from satellites and aerial imaging to create predictive models. The project aims to bring cost effective solutions for disease management, breeding, pruning, and more to farmers of all sizes.  Resources:         117: Grapevine Mildew Control with UV Light 129: The Efficient Vineyard Project 191: CropManage: Improving the Precision of Water and Fertilizer Inputs 199: NASA Satellites Detect Grapevine Diseases from Space Convolutional Neural Networks for Image-Based High-Throughput Plant Phenotyping: A Review Deep Semantic Segmentation for the Quantification of Grape Foliar Diseases in the Vineyard Deep Learning-based Autonomous Downy Mildew Detection and Severity Estimations in Vineyards NASA Acres - applying satellite data solutions to the most pressing challenges facing U.S. agriculture Yu Jiang Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript Craig Macmillan  0:00  Our guest today is Yu Jiang. He is an assistant professor of systems engineering and data analytics in the School of integrative plant science horticulture section at Cornell agritech. Thank you for being on the podcast   Yu Jiang  0:12  Thanks Craig for having me for these podcasts.   Craig Macmillan  0:15  I found out about you, because you're connected to the NASA acres Consortium, which is doing a bunch of really cool stuff for all kinds of crops around the world and winegrapes turning out to be part of it. What is what is NASA acres,   Yu Jiang  0:28  So I got to adopt the some of the official description about a NASA acre so our audience can better understand what's our mission and what's our approach. So NASA acres consortium is commissioned under NASA Applied Sciences program, and brings the value of Earth observation technology down to earth. NASA acres consortium established the march 2023 And then led by Dr. Alissa Witcraft from the University of Maryland. NASA acres is NASA's second consortium devoted to strengthening food security and agriculture, followed by the success of NASA harvest, a global focus a consortium but this time, NASA Acers specifically emphasizes on the US own agriculture land in NASA acres, we bridge the gap from space to farm and adaptation to impact to gather with US farmers, ranchers, and other agri food system decision makers who are charged with addressing the most pressing challenges to sustainable, productive, resilient agriculture now and in the future. to ensure our missions, NASA acres utilize a consortium structure to bring together a geographically, semantically and personally diverse group of agriculture actors, and partners from both public and private sectors collaborated within a model that matches ivory cultures own highly dynamic and diverse needs, and flexible partnerships and rapid actions on tools in NASA acres that will help ensure that a satellite based Earth Observations applications are user driven and free for all the preppers we envision .   Craig Macmillan  2:25  a huge mission. There's a bunch of different technologies that are involved here. And you're involved in a bunch of them. One that I'm particularly curious about was we had a guest on the podcast from Cornell Katie Gold, she was working with hyperspectral imaging and the detection of plant stress, but as a plant disease. And that's the that's the sky. Right? That's the information coming from satellites or whatever. You are the boots on the ground person. Is that right?   Yu Jiang  2:49  Yes, correct. I'm on the ground, I'm doing the groundwork.   Craig Macmillan  2:53  All right, we're literally grounding. So as far as that project goes, I understand that you're using robots and with sensors and artificial intelligence and whatnot to detect and predict disease spread. You tell me more about that.   Yu Jiang  3:09  For my account of a personal program, and the involvement of with NASA acres, you know, project, we bring in new, especially ground robots, we use various internet of of things, sensing network technologies, that we can offer the information as the ground truth matterments that many of these you know satellite or Earth observation data streams can use to try and various models for prediction, or estimation of various things of interest. And disease is definitely one of the biggest things for the ineyard management's currently adding in the future.   Craig Macmillan  3:50  Absolutely. If I understand what this work is on the ground as its ground truthing what the hyperspectral imaging is telling us is that right?   Yu Jiang  4:00  Roughly yes, if you can see there, all the current paradigm of doing remote sensing work. Most of the time, people are really focusing on the modeling, or how we can find the best and model to link or connect the hyperspectral signals collect data from, you know, satellite based or airborne based imagery systems, we use the ground truth data collected by a human on the ground. And these have been proven very successful in the past to produce various models that we are using right now including weather forecast, but with the very rapid and unprecedented climate challenges, and also the induced disease pressures. We are kind of lagging behind with the speed or pace we need to develop new models to tackle these problems. And that's a reason we want the robot to do so so that we can catch up with the disease. This can Have a fashion or progression speed, but also offer new tools for our viewers to use for their management decision making.   Craig Macmillan  5:08  So tell me about the robots, what are the robots doing?   Yu Jiang  5:12  So we developed a customized robot called the phytopathobot short for PPP. So basically phytopathology there's, my colleague, Katie Gold right is a scientist, that who really work on plant disease, and the bot is just the short name for the robots. And we put these two together, and basically just shows we integrated the kind of advantages offered robotic or automation systems with the new AI capability. So this robots can really bring the human experience and intelligence to all the fields that can do for example, if you see scouting recommendation, or some other, you know, checking functions that otherwise currently we have no human resources to do so for every single farm at the present time.   Craig Macmillan  6:06  Right? Is it fair to say that the training part would be described as artificial intelligence? Or should we call it neural network hearing? Or what would be the appropriate technical term for that part of it? Because I have a question about that.   Yu Jiang  6:17  Yeah, I think, broadly speaking, is a part of the artificial intelligence.   Craig Macmillan  6:23  Okay.   Yu Jiang  6:23  And that is more off the AI application for agriculture.   Craig Macmillan  6:28  What's happening is there's cameras then or there's some kind of a, either hyperspectral, or there's something that's getting information that's mounted on the robot, right?   Yu Jiang  6:40  Yes, correct. Our robot is currently equipped in ways both RGB multispectral thermal and the hyperspectral sensors, which many more on the road.   Craig Macmillan  6:52  And then you get readings. And then you know, human, I would assume says yes, this is disease, or yes, this is not. And then over many, many iterations, then the artificial intelligence learns what that is. And then it can be autonomous, you can send it out and it'll find it on its own, identify it on its own.   Yu Jiang  7:14  Yes, so I would see the autonomy is achieved at two levels. First is all the AI system for disease identification and quantification. We have a twin various models, with the expertise from our like, it's 30 plus year career technicians. And now we just a brand Hey, spray into the AI system that we can rely on to detect the disease in the field, specifically for a grape downey and powdery mildews at the moment. But at the same time, we also train the AI systems to guide the robots, autonomously navigating in the vineyard. is much more like the similar technology Tesla or other you know, EV car manufacturers are using for autonomous driving, but now just say, equipped those technologies with this ag robot that can do with autonomous navigation in vanguard in alternative in many of the different fields for agriculture purposes.   Craig Macmillan  8:14  the future of this technology, or the robots gonna continue to be a part of it, or are we going to be at a point where we're relying solely upon the aerial or orbit based imagery?   Yu Jiang  8:26  That's a great question. And I actually want to set up some of the context. information for our audience,   Craig Macmillan  8:33  please.   Yu Jiang  8:33  So yeah, the robots we kind of referred to here, actually those intelligent, you know, agent that can perform certain tasks in your backyard, or do the actual right to do all these operations, like a spring harvesting, you know, picking samples, all these, then when we consider how are we going to strategically and effectively deploy those robots? That's a big question is not a trivial because each robot at the current, you know, time would cost roughly 50,000 to $60,000. I think for many of the large farms, or wineries, the company will be able to afford that. For many of the small to medium sized farms, these can be a barrier for them to adopt the latest digital technology, which I hate, you know, that part as technologist. So one of the possibility is actually linked to the NASA acres project and the mission is a how we can use all sorts of information that can be affordably available to the growers to really use that for decision making. And a while of the concept we propose here is to make a closed loop joint training system that can connect the proximal sensing from the robots and other drone systems, we use the Earth observation data offered by federal agencies such as NASA, so that later all the growers can really enjoy, you know, using a very low cost or affordable platform offered from NASA or NASA acres consortia to make decisions on their individual farms. But largely training, the costs of a training such a model is taking over by large growers, largely, you know, stakeholders and some sort of a, you know, public and research institute that can balance the way or how the disadvantages you know, community can't adopt the latest technology.   Craig Macmillan  10:44  That is fascinating. You mentioned tasks, what kind of tasks are you talking about?   Yu Jiang  10:49  The current account of the PPP robots can do two tasks. First thing is for disease recognition, and the qualification, as I mentioned, for downey, and powerdy, and then now PPP can also generate a map right after the scanning off your vineyard, where those disease really severely infected your plants right now. And we working in progress try to use these PPP derive the map to correlate with the satellite maps or hyperspectral imaging so we can get so we can find which hyperspectral signals gone and correlated with diseases infection on the ground. And this is especially important for crops like grapes because of manual for the disease, or occurred from the bottom of the canopy, or the side of the canopy, where many off of the you know, satellite or Earth observation systems may not easily see at the beginning. But those signals will be embedded in the hyperspectral signatures.   Craig Macmillan  11:55  Got it. Okay. So I could get a map that would allow me to spray pesticide a fungicide very, very targeted way is kind of where we're going with this.   Yu Jiang  12:06  Yes, correct. I'm actually gonna just share some other ongoing effort here. Also, while also my colleague Dr. Devika Daughtrey from plants, Plant Pathology at Cornell agri tech, who identified the use of the UV, as treatment, powdery mildew or Downy Mildew for our grapes. And our account of ongoing efforts is to synchronize that map generated by PPP and the transfer to the UV robots. So now UV robots are gonna rely on that map to apply the UV treatment to balance the power usage and the hopefully to also maximize the contents of the disease spreading in the vineyard.   Craig Macmillan  12:52  That's really exciting. I understand the USDA also has some some role in this technology or related technologies.   Yu Jiang  12:59  Yeah, you ask the actually is a big partner of the whole team, especially for the grape genetics research unit, here in Geneva, New York. And we have a very multidisciplinary team, I will see I can see is from like a plant breeding to genetic to plant pathology now, including myself from engineering and robotics. And we also have about informatics, and we some colleagues from other universities on economy and marketing. So the whole team's efforts is back to a systems engineering approach, I would say. So when we look at the whole production, right, it's not just that, yeah, we have this robot that can do proceed and spray or deliver the UV treatment can solve all these questions. It's just hard to imagine that simple. So then we when we look at the whole agriculture production system, we started with the best plant material. And if we started with the building a candidate or a successful candidate data, usually just to make the rest of the whole production management much easier than ever before.   Craig Macmillan  14:14  Yeah, absolutely.   Yu Jiang  14:15  That's where, you know, all the scientists on the team really excited about how we can breed a new plant materials that have more like a natural resistance to plant the disease or maybe other stresses so that later on the in season management, it can be much more easily, you know, controlled or conducted by the growers. That Castile enable sustainable, you know, agriculture while maximizing the profitability for many of the growers in the future.   Craig Macmillan  14:45  I understand that one of the projects you've worked on had to do with phenotyping. So if I'm reading plants, there's a particular trait that I want and there's a particular expression of that trait that I want, whether it's disease tolerance or drought tolerance or salt tolerance. answer whatever it is, but that aspect of plant breeding is very difficult and takes a long time traditionally, and takes a high level of expertise. What is this idea of high throughput? phenotyping? What's that all about?   Yu Jiang  15:13  If you can have a think about the whole history of plant breeding, all the way you treat the back to mon Tao, we are human phenotyping is the best way, we just go to the field, plant and various plant materials, and just watch their performance in the field and find the best suitable for us. Right? So so then we recognize the traditional breeding, it becomes a numbers game, the more we test, the higher the possibility, we're going to find something, going t obe suitable for us, right? So we say it's a matter of who can email you this account of a traditional breeding way that requires the highest throughput phenotyping. Because the more you testing in the field, the higher the possibility we got to get something successful, and how to evaluate in the field is the biggest question right now. And that's where the high throughput plant phenotyping plays a vital role to address that bottleneck. So instead of for a breeder, to raw, only, you know, hundreds of 1000, you know, testing materials, the now can run, you know, 10,000, or even 100,000 in a year. That's how we hope to speed up the entire breeding cycles.   Craig Macmillan  16:25  So tell me the details of the tech of the details of the so I get some, I breed some plants, I've got some seeds, I'm gonna plant some seeds, right, I've got genetic recombination, now we gotta cross. How does this technology actually play a role? I put a bunch of plants in front of it, or how does it work?   Yu Jiang  16:46  Yep, so So in my understanding, there are actually two different paths ways to use that. One is along the traditional ways, as we just described, basically, we just find the best performancer from the field, right, and the system would just behave like a human in the field, we just find the tallest one, then we just a mirror the height of the plants in the field using the AI system with the robot, or if we want find more disease resistance is more like a what the PPB is helping right now, go to the field check a differente. And though gene all types off with a group of eyes, and then we find the least the infection as the candidate for the next one, right, this is a more like a traditional way. But now the second pathway is even more exciting is through the genetic studies. So once we kind of forget these phenotypes, especially there are differences, we have many different ways now can sequence them to understand their DNA markers and sequences, so that we will be able to work with the bell informaticians, to find which genes are associated with the phenotypic trees have a desire. Okay, so certain genes in my show, okay, the high disease resistance always associated with certain region in your DNA, and that's very likely being the gene or the region really control the resistance right to that particular disease. And if we ran multiple of these experiment, we get more and more as a candidate of Regents, and lead her on instead of keep running the field of trials, which still consume a lot of resources and the timing, because you need to wait until the plants are mature, and, you know, go through the entire season, we can now rely on those genetic, you know, information to identify the next around of a candidate, if the content of those gene regions is very likely, they're gonna have some, you know, resistance to certain disease. And that's another whole pathway, in my opinion, to facilitate the cultivar development in the future.   Craig Macmillan  18:58  And what is the role of AI in that?   Yu Jiang  19:00  So AI, please several rules there. So first, is to help the phenotyping itself, right. So basically, in the past, we sent a large group of it, you know, people go to the field and check the planet, hide diseases, infection, fruit size, you name it. And now we can just use, you know, robots to take images or even our cell phone to take an image. And then the AI will just mimic a human behavior to identify Oh, where the plant is, how tall the plant is, what's the number of leaves within that image or a number of a fruit fruit the size, a little versus, you know, trees and AI definitely now, at least, that being comparable with human performance for many of these tasks. And the other way is actually, to use AI as another tool to make a better prediction of relationship between the phenotypic trees and their genetic variants, right as we discuss for the second impassively is basically made to find that the association between genetic and phenotypic variants, and the AI also now plays a vital role to help us to find those relationships. It goes beyond traditional statistics human developed, and the find many interesting and hidden relationships that are currently statistic based approach cannot find.   Craig Macmillan  20:24  Wow, that's amazing. There's a couple of other things that that I that I was researching you that I noticed that were very, very, like practical right now, today, please, can I have some kind of technologies. One is improving the efficiency of pruning grapevines? And then I think I read this right, using facial recognition, AI technology to recognize powdery mildew infections. I would love to know about those two things, because those are two things that I would if I had it, I would use it today.   Yu Jiang  20:51  For sure. Let's start with the disease part. Yeah, cuz that's just allow what we just discussed why we developed that tool is basically a request actually, from my colleagues from the breeding and genetics slide. Okay. So in the past, my colleague, Dr. Lance Candle-Davison, at the USDA ARS develop a protocol that can use a one centimeter leaf disk as an assay to evaluate the disease progression, on the group leaf tissues, and then later on that can help him as a pathogen geneticists, to find the genes related to the disease resistance to powdery and downy mildews. But the challenge is, in the past, we have to train a bunch of, you know, technicians and the postdocs, even some of the other grad and graduate students at Cornell, to sit in front of a optical microscope and put the sample on our eight turn to like a tax 100x. And then manually identify how the pathogen really grew in the past a couple of days during the experiment, right, and then counted the number of a hyphal, which is a particular organ of the pathogen being grown, right. And then at the end of the day, they turn all these numbers back, and they will be able to run some quantitative genetic analysis, try to find the relationship. And I tried to once to be honest.   Craig Macmillan  22:27  Okay, yeah, I spent a lot of I spent a lot hours with a dissecting scope. So I hear you Isn't that fun?   Yu Jiang  22:34  Well, I want to see, for the first a couple of new samples. Yeah, it's it's a new experience for anyone, right? And if it's like, oh, yeah, I get that. After trial, you know, 10 samples. I'm done today. I don't want to see the front end of the microscope that day. And don't ask me to do this again. Right. It's quite tedious. And as a person, you'll feel fatigued very quickly. Yep. Very quickly, because you need to, to be super concentrated on what are you observing right now? And then also make the columns in your brain? I don't know how I did that. But I did. But after 10 samples, no, no more?   Craig Macmillan  23:16  Yeah. Yeah.   Yu Jiang  23:17  So that's the motivation for us to consider how the AI system can really help us, right? Because basically, what do we want the AI to do is giving you know, an image? Can you tell me? Which part content of the hypho And then tell me how I mean, how many of these hyphos are within that image? That's all right. So it's very much like the facial recognition technology we're using every single day. So our smartphone or maybe other security checking, you know, systems, right? And that just to give us motivation, hey, why not? Let me just build the robot and some of the AI tools that we can automate this whole process. So later on, instead of asking our students to do that very tedious work of observing the dissecting microscope, we will be able to allow them to do more intelligent work, how to find or improve the approval from the genetics, the perspective or the breeding perspective, rather than letting them doing this repeated and boring work. And that's the whole motivation here. And that's a reason why we can't have a proposed out method and that really got some success and to speed up that process. And now, just want to share with you in the past the year 2023 Last group, by using this technology was able to find a 60 more quantitative trait, a low sigh, which you can see there are data that gene regions related to certain, you know, phenotypic traits. And here in this study, that's more for the powdery mildew resistance. just named as single year, his team found 60 More as compare with, we fund probably 40 In the past four decades.   Craig Macmillan  25:08  Wow, wow, that's fantastic. There's so much here. There's so much stuff going on in it, as I have guests on that are working in these areas. It's just is it every day, I'm just learning so much new stuff, but I can't let you go without talking about pruning. I just, I just have to know about that I've I pruned a lot of grape vines personally, and I've trained people and you know, and there's, there's this, well, I'll just break it down for you. Pruning grape vines is an art form. And I don't care what kind of Trellis I don't care what kind of grape, whatever it is. And even if you're mechanized, that you gotta tune this thing up, and you got to collect data, and you got to figure out how this is gonna work. And when you have vines that are being pruned, you're trained, every single time somebody that I've been working with, usually above me was like, do these people really know what they're doing? Because they can't screw it up. Right? So now, is this going to help me? I mean, this is do you have technology? That's gonna help me you? I mean, I need this help.   Yu Jiang  26:02  Yes. Also, simple answer is A Yes, yes. And yes. So we are developing actually, the technology for the broader pruning a system for both apples and grapes as perennial crops, because they do need this type of technology to help based on my personal experience in the past three years, with both the pruning for apples and pruning for grapes, I share your burden Craig, it's not only you, but as an observer, and both the person who did the pruning, okay, using the knives, I have a strong feeling, I don't know what I'm doing.   Craig Macmillan  26:44  Right?   Yu Jiang  26:44  Right, I have a lot of criteria being you know, taught, say you need to find a branch that thick or that long, then you need to cut to certain lengths or just a cut them entirely, so that you can have new shoots coming with more healthy groups and the more productive grooves in the year. But to be honest, and once you get into the field, maybe perhaps the first several you keep that in mind. And then otherwise, oh, yeah, I just feel like these two needs to be cut. Don't ask me why I just feel that way. Right. And this is a kind of shows the non uniformity among the workforce. If I'm a beginner, I have less experience, I gotta be low in my working efficiency, I am going to create more problems, and rather than more success pruning, for the management, and obviously, the more counter for trend and people needs to be you know, pay them more because they have those experiences. So that all comes through the labor shortage issue, then it's just really hard to find those skilled people. So in my group, we kind of develop we are developing new 3d imaging technologies. Oh, wow. Yeah, that can get the very high fidelity of the 3d models of your grape vines and the apple trees in the field. And then once we get to some models, we can extract the skeleton is much more like how human described that, oh, yeah, that's my skin, and then I have to shoes and how they grow. And then we just be able to do that in a granular detail with all the needed information, like what's the diameter, or what's the length for each of these branch. And then due to all we can, based on our predefined the pruning criteria, to decide where are the cutting points, so that either a person or maybe a machine, or maybe a robot in the future, can go to the field directly cut based on the information we already get. Yeah, and the good thing is now with this whole kind of a new approach, instead of based on our existing you know, criteria, we can also form all different sets of criteria to really prune it in whatever way we want because that's a digital system. It won't hurt anything rather than using some of the power from you right? And then we can count off a get a difference you though proven the vineyard to take a look which we better serve our purpose. And we are also working with some offer collaborators try to incorporate to the growth models for grape vine. Try to see with different pruning strategy how the group vine or apple trees gonna grow during the growing season. And how I mean for me differently you know, branch structures and maybe different fruits load and the distribution with a hope you know, if we know this information beforehand, we can let the universe to determine what might be the best strategy we want to do as the you Though time progress to the green season, so do you have much more information in advance? Rather than Oh, yeah, I got it just to do the pruning. But that's the best I can do.   Craig Macmillan  27:15  Right? Right, right. So it sounds like that could be kind of an iterative process, you have a robot go through, and you get your 3d model, and you bring it back. And then you develop an algorithm essentially, that says, Keep this, don't keep this keep this, don't keep this, cut it here, cut it there, then you could execute that. Exactly, basically, to the vine.   Yu Jiang  30:29  Yes. Correct.   Craig Macmillan  30:30  And then you could have it grow. And then you can come back the following year, and say, Okay, well, what happened? And you could refine that model over time.   Yu Jiang  30:39  Yes, correct. That that's exactly the concept called a digital twin. Wow. Yeah, we see is a product actually from NASA, used to use that for you know, making the Mars rovers or the moon rovers, because they need to simulate so many different things before they put the actual manufacturing, right. But now we want to adopt these concepts for agriculture, before we do any of the decision making on pruning or harvesting. We want to see how they progress in the digital world, because it just takes us so minimal cost, and then we can have better understanding which way might be the best, we want to move forward.   Craig Macmillan  31:20  Wow, that's really exciting stuff. This technology is probably still in its infancy, I would guess.   Yu Jiang  31:27  Yes. Correct. I mean, although now we have more and more 3d imaging technologies and even more like a loose AI driven approaches. But it still is early stage, we are having some challenges from the field. So that's a reason we are, working hard to make progress. And I hope to share more things, you know, in the coming years with the audience here and hopefully demonstrated to the grape industry someday.   Craig Macmillan  31:53  Yeah, absolutely. Keep going. We're out of time. But I want to what is it one thing you would recommend to grape growers around this kind of topic, these topics, I guess I should say,   Yu Jiang  32:05  Can I share two actually?   Craig Macmillan  32:07  Please yeah, to is great.   Yu Jiang  32:09  Why I really want to share with with all the growers as we are at the point where many of these digital technologies are being more and more available and affordable. So please keep your eyes and the for example, at Cornell, my extension program focuses on the digital agriculture trials for adoption short for data aims to fill in the gap between you know, the growers and the startup companies who deliver those new da tools for production management, and also tried to offer more knowledge base to our growers, they can learn and better use these tools by themselves. So this is very important, as many of these tools go and just a calming and you don't want to miss the opportunity offer using the best of the tool to shop yourself and make better management. The second thing I also really want to share with our audience here is pleased to share all these exciting lands from digital agriculture to our case, to younger generations who are working in your, you know, vineyard or winery. I'm a strong believer the best investment is always you know, for the future generations. If they got excited if the et buy in all these ideas and put more efforts to start, you know, learn and develop new technologies back to agriculture and the food sectors. I believe we're gonna have a sustainable and resilient agriculture in the future for sure.   Craig Macmillan  33:39  That is fantastic. Where can people find out more about you.   Yu Jiang  33:42  you can check on my labs website is a se a i r dot c a l s dot cornell.edu. I will provide you the link so that you can share with the audience.   Craig Macmillan  33:58  Fantastic. So our guest today with Yun Jiang. He's a system professor of systems engineering and data analytics in the School of integrative plant science the whole crypto section of Cornell agritech thank you so much for being on the podcast. This was really fun.   Yu Jiang  34:13  Thanks so much Craig for having me today and as my priority to share our ongoing efforts and research with the broader audience here for grapes. Thanks, everyone.   Transcribed by https://otter.ai Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

“Food disconnect” is a term used to describe the average consumer's lack of knowledge about where their food comes from and how it's made. When it comes to wine, most consumers only see the finished product in the grocery store or tasting room! Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values. While everyday agricultural practices may feel ordinary to you, these topics are fascinating to the average consumer, who likely has little to no insight into the block to bottle process behind their glass of wine. Describing specific practices and why they are important helps customers understand the time and care that went into producing their wine. Sharing your unique story welcomes them to take part in the good feelings that come from supporting a business that is doing better for the people and the planet. People care about social and environmental issues, and want to support brands that share their values and do something about it. This week's Marketing Tip tells the inspiring Sustainable Story of how Bien Nacido Vineyards' irrigation team demonstrates diligent Water Management through the use of technology and a growth mindset. Data-Driven Irrigation Water is a valuable resource for all forms of life. But it is limited and must be used responsibly. Bien Nacido Vineyards' team of experienced irrigators, led by Miguel Asuncion, take several steps to ensure efficient water use. To avoid system malfunction and uneven hydration, vineyard stewards must constantly maintain their systems. Bien Nacido's team performs multiple line flushes each year to keep them clear of dirt and debris, and routinely tests distribution uniformity to ensure consistent hydration across their diverse terrains and elevations. Vines aren't heavy water users, and Mother Nature provides a portion of what they do need. Bien Nacido's irrigators track rainfall, weather data, and soil moisture levels, and estimate evapotranspiration. With this data, they tailor their irrigation schedule based on the land's needs. When their data shows their vines need water, the team of irrigators waits until the sun is down. They irrigate during dark hours because without the sun's heat, the vines and soil can more efficiently absorb and utilize what is applied. But they believe opportunities for enhancement never end. Bien Nacido partners with experts to help identify even more areas for improvement. They have created a plan to advance their soil and sap flow monitoring technologies, and seek further optimization opportunities with regular analyses of their irrigation system's design, filtration, and pressure regulation. Tell Your Sustainable Story We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program. This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing yours today!       Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team. Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Apply for SIP Certified Wine Center of Effort's Sustainable Story feature in Grape and Wine Magazine Marketing Tips eNewsletter Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic What's your Sustainable Story? Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Lange Twins has implemented individual regenerative practices but now they are asking, what would happen if they stacked them? Kendra Altnow, Sustainability Manager at Lange Twins Family Winery & Vineyards and a 5th generation Lange shares Project Terra. The goals are to increase biodiversity, build and enrich the soil and improve watershed through shifting farming practices, restoration and conservation. They are accomplishing this through grazing livestock, establishing permeant ground cover, reducing tillage, improving native habitat, and reducing reliance on herbicides, insecticides, and fungicides. Resources:         REGISTER | June 12, 2024 : Regenerative Agriculture in a Production Vineyard 2.0 Tailgate 121: Regenerative Agriculture (Rebroadcast) BIFS Field Day Cover Cropping and Livestock Grazing for Regenerative Agriculture Blue Point Conservation Science California Department of Farming and Agriculture Center for Land Based Learning Community Alliance with Family Farmers Hedgerow Farms Kendra Altnow Kendra Altnow – Instagram Lange Twins Vineyards Hosts Cover Crop and Livestock Grazing Field Day Lange Twins Lange Twins Winery and Vineyard – Instagram Natural Resource Conservation Service Paicines Ranch Xerces Society Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript Craig Macmillan  0:00  Our guest today is Kendra Altnow she is sustainability manager at Lange Twins family winery and vineyards and she's a fifth generation. Lange. Welcome to the program.   Kendra Altnow  0:09  Thanks for having me. Glad to be here.   Craig Macmillan  0:11  We want to have you on because you folks there at length twins have been doing some really innovative things around regenerative agriculture. And through a project you're calling project Tara, what is project Tara? What's that all about?   Kendra Altnow  0:25  Well, we kind of have two different definitions, I would say a project Terra one is the concise purpose of project Terra is to increase biodiversity building, enrich the soil and improve our watershed through shifting our farming principles and practices, restoration and conservation, all while building the next generation of land stewards. That's what I like to say is the on paper definition of project Terra. But project Terra means something a little bit different to me, it's our vision coming to life. Like many of us, the health of the planet is a top of mind. And a few years ago, I really wanted to see what we could do as a family to contribute to being part of the very complex solution equally as important passing our land to the next generation healthier than it was passed to us. So I really just started reading and I learned that there are lots of changes that we can make. But we have a unique access to something that a lot of other people don't have. And that's our land. And really, I see that our land gives us the greatest opportunity for change. So we started just digging into what those practices look like. And regenerative farming really was something interesting and something very obtainable for us to do.   Craig Macmillan  1:41  What are some of those practices? Because from what I understand from doing research with what you're up to you, you did certain things 10 years ago, and then you brought in some other elements, and then you tried some other elements. Now you're kind of trying to bring them all together, if I understand correctly, what are some of those elements?   Kendra Altnow  1:55  Yeah, that's exactly what it is. I like to say when people come out and come to the farm for tour, that we've been practicing everything in different vineyards, but not necessarily taking those practicing and what regenerative agriculture calls stacking them. So the components of those are reduction of off farm inputs, livestock integration, maintaining permanent ground cover, conservation or reduction in tillage, creation of habitat, which is one of my favorites, and reducing our reliance on herbicides, fungicides and insecticides. So those were all practices that we have been doing. But we said, hey, can we take those and put them together in one pilot vineyard. And that's really the core of what Project Terra is. And for us, it's not just about doing it on that pilot vineyard, but is building the framework to be able to scale it to the other vineyards within our families holdings.   Craig Macmillan  2:56  You mentioned you were excited about this particular area. And I think it's an interesting one, too. And that's habitat.   Kendra Altnow  3:00  Yes, that's my wheelhouse. I love it.   Craig Macmillan  3:02  Yeah. So tell me about that. How does that play into this project?   Kendra Altnow  3:05  Gosh, it's a huge portion. Biodiversity is really a big element of what we need to do here as farmers in general. When my grandfather was farming, he did edge to edge farming. And that really is you didn't see anything green in those vineyards whatsoever. When my dad and uncle came back in 1974, the ranch that they grew up on really looked different the wildlife that they had enjoyed seen. It wasn't there anymore. But the reason why it wasn't there was because the habitat was gone. Without that biodiversity, there was a shift in the ecosystem. And so with that, is this new recognition that we're approaching ag at that system's level, where we're seeing the farm, not just between the rows or from edge to edge, but everything inclusive.   Craig Macmillan  3:52   So how do you do that? If you like, did you take landlords in production? And then set it aside for habitat? Or did you identify areas that could be habitat and then restored them in some fashion? How did you how did you approach that?   Kendra Altnow  4:05  Yeah, and that's, you know, something we've been doing for a long time is habitat restoration, primarily riparian restoration, our family is here on the Mokelumne river. So that's our watershed, and we have unfarmable areas. But we also have areas that were planted that we have taken out of production just because the quality coming off the vineyard wasn't meeting the standards of the winery. So we we kind of have a multiple approach. Over the years, it was just what we could get done. Recently, we worked with point blue conservation science and we have a conservation plan. And that conservation plan takes a look at all of our land that we farm as a whole and has helped us identify areas where we can make improvements that's not only within the vineyards itself by creating maybe filter strips or wildlife corridors, but also where We have maybe a vernal pool area, and what we can do there. So really enhance what is already happening. So it's a little bit of everything I guess is we've, we've had help. But we also just noticed, oh, that area over there isn't great. Let's put a pollinator habitat in.   Craig Macmillan  5:16  And you've been doing as long as you believe that there is some improvements and some stability from increasing the biodiversity on the land.   Kendra Altnow  5:24  Let me take a step back. Biodiversity has definitely increased here on our farm, just the other day, we saw two Bob Cats hanging out on the bridge by our house, that is nothing I saw in my childhood. So I can definitely tell you that there has been a shift because there are animals and birds that we haven't seen that are coming back to our area, those animals and birds are what we see. And so can you imagine what we can't see? So what we're making the impact on? Who knows, right? I don't I'm not out there every day with a microscope looking. But by these bigger animals being here, I have to say that the other ones are here, too.   Craig Macmillan  6:04  And do you think that leads to a more stable? agro ecosystem?   Kendra Altnow  6:08  Absolutely. 100%   Craig Macmillan  6:10  100%, you had mentioned also things around fungicide, insecticide herbicide reduction. How does that play into what kind of practices and how does that play into the stability of the project overall?   Kendra Altnow  6:20  we just finished reading a book. And there's a lot to be said about soil health, right. And that's a big topic, especially in ag these days, I think that we're a lot better than we have been. That's what sustainability is all about, right? Is continuous improvement, really digging into the health of the soil makes us recognize that maybe there's more we can do. From my perspective, having biodiversity above ground and below ground is only going to help us not just in our vineyard and the production of the wine grapes, but also as a whole for everything around it. I'm not sure if that answered your question. Sometimes my brain goes off in tangents.   Craig Macmillan  6:57  No, I think I think it's the right idea, I think what you're getting at is by looking at things as being integrated, looking at from a system standpoint, where everything affects everything else changes that make over here, make changes over here. And those can be beneficial changes, they don't have to be negative changes, necessarily.   Kendra Altnow  7:12  And I think also, it's such a long term result, right. So it takes a very long time, for us to see the true benefits of what we're doing today. I always say, Gosh, I wish we would have started this, you know, 10 years ago, because then I would feel better about what we're doing. Now you have to have patience. And I think that's been the biggest learning for us or for myself in particular, is that you're not going to change your soil structure or your soil health or anything that has to do with the environment, it takes time. And it takes that dedication. And it's not always the easiest path forward either. So you really have to sit back and realize following that vineyard, for a certain period of time might seem against what we would typically do. But in the long run, it's going to benefit what we're doing, if you understand what I'm saying,   Craig Macmillan  8:09  Yeah, I do I do I change this to soil health improvements. And so structured water holding capacity and things like that. Those do take a long, long, long, long time. But you have to do it if you're gonna get there, you know, and I think what a lot of folks are finding out from the interviews that I'm doing, you know, you may go like, Oh, my God, you know, it's gonna take 10 years, well, 10 years can fly by in terms of like a region, you know, just do it stick to it part of that cover cropping. So you folks have been doing cover cropping for a long time. And I'm guessing that the decisions that you've made in terms of what to plant, where to plant it, maybe even how to plant it, how to terminate it, and probably evolved over time. Can you tell me a little bit about your cover cropping, philosophy management, how that's changed over time?   Kendra Altnow  8:51  So my very simple philosophy is the soil is better served covered period, I believe that not only in our own homes, at home, in our backyards, and our front yards, but also within the vineyard. So that's an aside from how we make our decisions on what cover crops we plant. When it comes to cover crops. I'm sure you know this, they're super complex, there's so many different species out there. And they all are very specific on what you're trying to do for typically the health of your of your land or your soil. So what we always look at first, is the vigor of the vine because we want to ensure that we're not taking away from the growth of the vine and then regional erosion. So those would be like the two starting points for us. And then from there, we combined with the soil type, if we're going to be grazing or not grazing and then the ecological benefits so it's kind of a stacking just in decision making. And then the way we choose what vineyards it goes into, we we across the board, try to get it out. Timing is a big thing for us in all of our Lange Twins family vineyards, except in the vineyards that the mower can't fit down the rows. So it's a very operational decision on that, that side.   Craig Macmillan  10:10  What are some of the variables that you've been trying to manipulate? And what were some of the plant choices that you made to achieve those goals?   Kendra Altnow  10:19  Erosion control is probably our biggest number one cover crop choice that we do or a multiplex this species type, that's something that I would have to ask Chris and Charlie, or even Maria, on our team, they handled the decisions of that. But I'm involved in more of why. So I'm sitting here looking out my window at one of our vineyards, and we have a runoff issue. And so we made, you know, a very spot decision to plant a an erosion control mix, just because it's not planted right now. And we saw two years ago, or, actually, it wasn't two years ago was last winter, it was just gosh, the amount of soil going into the soil was absurd. So what can we do about it? So a lot of it is knowing your land as well, and making the decisions that way?   Craig Macmillan  11:07  So you're using different things in different places. So for some areas, it's all about erosion. Other places, it's about probably water management,   Kendra Altnow  11:14  Or, you know, your nitrogen fixing is a big decision making as well, depending on the vineyards.   Craig Macmillan  11:22  Oh,that reminds me, so I hadn't thought of before, have you been doing any, like pre post testing or control treatment kind of testing, as you do these things   Kendra Altnow  11:30  For cover crops?   Craig Macmillan  11:32  For cover crops or anything else.   Kendra Altnow  11:34  We do a lot. I mean, we do a lot of soil testing, is what we've started doing. And we do that not only just from a short term reason of seeing what's happening right now. But in these areas where we are doing no sustainable ag versus regenerative AG, we have started long term analysis so we can see what really is going to be happening in the vineyard long term with the decisions that we're making today. And does it make sense. So does it make sense for us to do it? Well, maybe it's not making a huge impact on that level, but it will be financially. So there are a lot of tracking that we are doing, because we need to make sure that it makes sense from a sustainability point of view.   Craig Macmillan  12:21  What do you been finding out?   Kendra Altnow  12:22  That's a great question. I It depends. I mean, it really depends on where, and it also depends on what and that's what's so tricky about farming. There isn't a playbook. Right. So what is working on one vineyard isn't necessarily working on another, for example, we have a vermicompost trial going on right now. And it's interesting, we've set it up. And we've done all of the analysis. And what we found is that different phases of the growth of the vineyard, the vermicompost, made a difference. But at the end of the growing season, everything caught up. So it's going to be interesting to see this year, what happens because is there going to be a true difference year after year. And then we'll add in do we add vermicompost again, so what we're trialing right now, which is really fun, is taking our pumice from the winery and feeding it to red worms to see if we can then reapply it out in the vineyards. What we don't know about that is if what is in the vermicompost by the worms, eating our promise is something that is going to benefit the vineyard. So benefit is in the sense of we're closing the loop on our promise, but it may not actually have any value to the soil in the vines themselves over a traditional form of compost feeding. Worms are really fun.   Craig Macmillan  13:45  I'm just gonna ask about that. So you're making worm compost on site?   Kendra Altnow  13:48  No, we're not. So there's a neighbor of ours, my cousin in law found I went out to visit him and I asked him if he would be interested in trial doing a trial with us. And he said, Sure, so we're taking pumice over to him from the winery during crush, and then he is running the trial for us. If it is something that becomes viable for us to do then we would transition it and start it on our own.   Craig Macmillan  14:15  Which reminds me of something else. You are working with a number of collaborators, you're not doing this in a vacuum and we'll transition into grazing was part of that but like what are some of the collaborators here you have your your neighbor, you're obviously working with probably other agencies or other other companies or their specialists who was part of the team here outside of Lange Twins.   Kendra Altnow  14:36  Oh, so many when I started in this role, going back a little bit is I you know, I didn't go to school for farming or winemaking and or sustainability for that matter. And so I took a lot of learning, calling and asking questions. Honestly, some of the organizations I reached out to first I was Point blue conservation science I hopped on, you know, the internet and I started just Googling people and seeing who would be interested in coming out and giving me a hand, they have been awesome because they really have introduced me not only to a whole host of other individuals within the that side of the world. So I would say the habitat side of the world, they did our holistic conservation plan for us. That really is what I would say is my strategic plan on that side of my role. From there, I work with the Center for land based learning their  SLEWS program, in particular, the kids from that program come out, and they actually implement some of our projects for us. And that's great, because that really is helping that next generation of land stewards in my mind, hopefully, some of them will come back and want to do this and do it in a fashion that is smart for both themselves and for the environment. NRCS Of course, Xerces, East Bay Mud, calf Valley grazing, hedgerow farms, Megan Phillips, Kelly Melville, you name it, I have like talked to all of them. And really, they have all been instrumental in us putting this together and moving it forward.   Craig Macmillan  16:22  I think it's an excellent transition into grazing.   Kendra Altnow  16:26  Yes, that's fine. I love graze   Craig Macmillan  16:28  you love it. Okay, cool. Well, here we go. If I understood correctly, from some things that I read, you folks are looking at moving into year round grazing. Can you tell me a little bit about the evolution, how it started, how you kind of got into it and how you got to where you're at now and kind of where you see yourself going in the future? Because it sounds like you actually are moving you're not done yet is what it kind of sounds like to me if I understood.   Kendra Altnow  16:51  We're just getting started. Grazing came to us through Charlie's sStar, there were sheep grazing and alfalfa field next to his home vineyard. And he offered the grazer to come into his vineyard for feed. And he said, guys, they did a great job. What do you think? And so we trialed it on 100 acres, and it was great. They came in, they did their job, it was the winter pass, and good to go. We loved what they did. We learned a little bit. And then the following year, it was ramped up big time. So we had a contract raiser come in. And we had probably 2000 to 3000 sheep everywhere, literally everywhere. And that winter was really raining. So it was difficult to get them into the vineyard. Some of them were flooded out. And it was just a challenge all around. And then when the rubber hit the road in the springtime, they got a better contract and left. So we didn't necessarily truth be told, have the best experience the second year. And it was logistically the main reason why. So the third year, we wanted to approach it a little differently. And I was at a young farmers and ranchers dinner and was approached and said, Hey, I had know someone that would love to do vineyard grazing. So great. So we sat down and talked. And what we realized is that what was going to work best for us is for them to be a true extension of our team. So not someone that's just going to come in and then move on to someone else, but someone that is going to be dedicated to working with us, because that is what we found was most important is that we're working together. So I see Valley grazing and Ross Mulrooney as not a separate from length twins, but he is part of length twins in the sense of being our sheep herder, right. So he's the guy, the boots on the ground, moving the sheep, the health of the sheep. And we're just helping direct them in that. And that honestly, if I could give anyone advice, and I know this can't happen for everyone based on size, or lots of other complexities, that has been a saving grace for us, because it's just, he, he knows what we're working towards. And we know what his needs are as well.   Craig Macmillan  19:14  You're working collaboratively. He has needs the sheep have needs you have needs can we find a way to have those things meet that makes a better outcome leads to a better outcome. Without question, yes, it sounds like you started with kind of the traditional, hey, let's get some animals, let's turn them loose. They're gonna go run around and do their thing. Oh, they're done. Now they leave. My experience with grazing is that it can get much more complex than that, and can lead to some even better outcomes when the management becomes a little bit more intensive, which it sounds like you're kind of moving towards is that right?   Kendra Altnow  19:52  Right. I mean for us, our goal is to have four passes a year with the sheep so it's It's a tool for sure. That's how we see this. It's a practice that we're going to implement within the vineyard. That's no different than mowing or herbicide spray, for example. So for us, the number one reason why we started it, there's lots of factors but was for that biodiversity in the soil and the soil microbiome, we know that animals do make a difference. So that was a really big factor. The second factor is back to the herbicides, if we can cut down on that, that's also going to help that soil microbiome third is the fossil fuels. Right. So by employing the sheep in the vineyards and integrating them in, we are cutting on fossil fuel use by all of the tractor passes that we're not doing anymore, etc. Sure, at first, it was like, Yay, winter weed control. This is awesome. But then you start scratching your head and peeling back the layers, you recognize that there's lots of other benefits of having animal integration. I mean, I sometimes they were just going back before my grandfather, right? They had animal integration, they actually had dual crops within their vineyards. And so it's like, we're going back to what we knew our ancestors. And we're applying it today, but in a modern way, with changes, of course, because we're not homesteaders.   Craig Macmillan  21:27  So we're talking, you said four passes. So what, what's the timing? What's the timing of the other grazing passes.   Kendra Altnow  21:34  So the first grazing pass for us starts post harvest. So three weeks after the vineyard has been harvested, we can move in the sheep. And really, this is to clean up weeds, vegetative debris, and the leaves. The second pass is the cover crop and weed management on our rotation. Typically, what ends up happening is why when they're done with the first pass, they're going to go start kind of all over again, right. And so now they're going to the cover crop and weed management. And that is what really this time of the year is. So they're out there mowing the cover crop, or they're really happy sheep, because they have tons of feed and getting the berms, we always focus on the berms. That's really important for us, especially if we're if we're not using any herbicides, it's really important for us to pay attention to the berms. The third pass is cover crop and weed management again, and this is kind of when we have the blind canopy management happening suckering chute hygiene and leaf removal. So it's in that spring where springtime, where there they can get in, they're not going to do a lot of damage, and they're still going to do good. And then the last pass is summer, so forth passes time or weed control. We are using these only and our trellis systems that are high wire. And so the Sheep can't really do that damage, because they can't reach up into the canopy and make a huge impact.   Craig Macmillan  22:57  And that was something that I mean, you you folks may have some experience with this. Maybe too early still, you know, the trend has been towards shorter and shorter, lower, lower trellising for a long time. And it's always been Oh, wine quality is better when the trellis is lower. And then we have these systems here where you will Yeah, but if I train a little bit higher, a little these other benefits that I can get is your winemaking staff getting feedback at this point. Are you seeing anything in terms of the cultural differences between the more traditional trellis and a higher wire trellis.   Kendra Altnow  23:26  I can give you a very specific example. We have single vineyard wines. And on our single vineyard wines, they keep all the lots separate. And we have an older cab vineyard. And then we have a high wire cab vineyard that is a little bit younger. The older one is California sprawl, it was planted in Gosh 1980s. It's our winemakers favorite vineyard. And along comes our River Ranch vineyard. And it's high wire and it is mechanically pruned and it is grazed and very different than what they 38 is. And I'll tell you what, they love that River Ranch cap and made it as a single vineyard wine. And so that to me goes to show that it can work both ways.   Craig Macmillan  24:09  It can work both ways. This is so fascinating. We could just go on forever. But is there one thing regarding kind of your experiences with all of this, all of this integrative stuff, is there one thing that you tell our listeners that you would recommend to them? As far as this goes this area?   Kendra Altnow  24:25  Oh man, I have so many recommendations. That could be like a whole thing on its own.   Craig Macmillan  24:32  You're gonna write a book?   Kendra Altnow  24:34  Probably. So my one recommendation is every little bit helps. And I truly believe that and that is something that you can do not only within your vineyard or your business, but you can do that at home. So my passion came from my family, because we have been farming sustainably in a really big way. However, my practices at home for example, I really got ignited because I saw a picture of all the plastic in the ocean and I had a heart attack. And I knew at that point, I couldn't use plastic bags anymore, for example. And that's a true story. I think that even though everyone around me might not have changed that practice, I know that that little bit does help. Right. So I think that is really important. I think the other important thing, when you're talking about farming, is the mindset shift. Farmers have been farming and doing things the same way for years and years and years. And it really takes forward thinking or openness to be able to change the way you're doing something. Because it's harder, it's harder, not only to train your team, that it's going to be done differently. But now you're using another tool, or introducing something different that hasn't been done before. So there's a learning curve. And when you have 100 million things going on, that one new thing feels like 100 billion pounds. And I think that it's really important that you have a cheerleader, which that's what I am, is the cheerleader to say, Hey, I think that this is really interesting. Do you think that we can implement not all of it at once, but do you think we can handle parts of it. And even that one small step is going to get us to where we want to go. And I would come in very different from, say, Erin and Phillip, my brother and cousin, they've been entrenched in farming for years, I kind of have this outsider's perspective where I don't necessarily know all of the logistical nightmare that might happen. Or I don't know all of the little idiosyncrasies that happen. All I see is this awesome opportunity. And then they bring me back to reality. And then we meet in the middle, and then we implement something. But I think if it was someone that didn't have that, like, I think we could do this, it wouldn't come to the forefront, because we're just so tasked on what we're already doing, and making sure that we're getting it done, that doesn't really give us time to do anything different. And I think that to me, has been the biggest learning. And maybe that the tidbit that I could give others is that be be that cheerleader or somehow find yourself to be that cheerleader for yourself, because it really will make a difference.   Craig Macmillan  27:41  I think that's great. I mean, every every little bit counts and being a cheerleader. Yeah. Sharing your excitement and your successes. I think it's huge.   Kendra Altnow  27:50  Yeah, I mean, it's, it's funny, Craig, between you and I, or if you want to put this out there I you know, I don't have a science background. I don't have a farming background. I don't have anything like that type of background. My background is sociology. And for for me, I just know that we can do better. And we have an opportunity to make positive change. And so I come in with they always call me rainbows and sunshine. Because that's that's like, really, for me, that's what it's about right is, is how can we make a difference, and I dried down I5. And I'm like holy smokes, we are the size of a gnat when it comes to farming in this world. And how to like I sit there and think, wow, I am I'm working hard to make change on my tiny little farm. Just think if we could get this farmer who has 30,000 acres to also make that change. And I think that's where it's at is it's got to start. I see. I mean, we're not small in the sense of tiny, tiny. We're midsize but gosh, there's some big farmers out there. And so sometimes it's like, Am I really making a difference? Like this is on 450 acres right now we could expand it. We're planning on scaling it up. Yeah. Okay, let's forget about those 30,000 acre farmers and that we're only a tiny bit to this very complex issue or complexity that's happening out there. Sure. Yes, let's do this. Because ultimately, it's going to be better for the next generation because they're going to be out there hopefully farming too.   Craig Macmillan  29:25  Yeah. And technology and innovation has its ways of being transmitted. Yes. And being adopted. More broadly. It takes time. And it also takes different systems. It takes different systems and that's one of the things that's intriguing is we've seen things that like you said that we tried things in the past and then we moved away for various reasons. And then you say hey, wait, there's benefits. Let's go back and try this again. Or people say Well, that isn't gonna work on my system because my system is so different. Within time goes by and there's proof of concept and then it well maybe this would work and we see changes all the time being out there as a leader Kendra, I think is part of the part of the solution and you're doing that.   Kendra Altnow  29:59  And I think honestly like what we can do for our farm, and this is what makes regenerative and we could go into that as a whole nother one podcast. But I look at sustainability and regenerative, which is so great about sustainability in my mind is it's not one size fits all, you're making the decisions for your farm based on what you can do in the best possible way. So someone might still fully believe in full tilling and that's all good and great. I'm not judging you, but they might be excellent in water conservation. And we have a lot of room to grow in that right so I like that's what I think is so awesome about farming is that there is no one single way of doing things and there is no right or wrong, but I always believe that there is room for improvement.   Craig Macmillan  30:52  Exactly. Where can people find out more about you?   Kendra Altnow  30:56  Well, Langetwins.com will have information about the family winery and the vineyards and laying twins on Instagram has tidbits about sustainability and if you really want to see all of my lovely day to day posts you can follow me at Kendra underscore Jean nine you get a little bit of sustainability and a lot of benefit family animals.   Craig Macmillan  31:22  That's fantastic. So our guest today has been Kendra Altnow she is sustainability manager at length twins family winery and vineyards and she's a fifth generation Lang. Thanks for being on the podcast has been a really fun conversation. Thanks Kendra.   Kendra Altnow  31:35  Gosh, I hope so you're welcome.   Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

Have you ever been asked “What's the difference between organic and sustainable?” Have you seen farming operations that have both certifications? Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values. In this Marketing Tip, you'll learn how Certified Organic and sustainable compare, and get some ideas for engaging in a conversation about what your certification means. Sustainable and Organic Overlap There is a lot of overlap between the programs. Both programs are committed to environmental preservation and regeneration through practices that address: Biodiversity and Habitat Soil Health and Conservation Integrated Pest Management Water Quality Why Get Both? A lot of SIP Certified farmers are also Certified Organic. Even if they're not certified by both, many of their farming practices overlap the programs. Since many organic practices are sustainable and vice-versa, an operation can attain both certifications without many complications. When a winegrower gets both Certified Organic and SIP Certified sustainable they demonstrate their commitment to environmental preservation and beyond. It also appeals to eco-conscious consumers who consider both certifications when making purchasing decisions. How to Explain Sustainability The 3 P's of Sustainability What makes sustainability unique is that in addition to addressing farming practices, it also looks at the social and economic aspects of the operation. A good way to remember this is the 3 P's of Sustainability: People, Planet, and Prosperity. You can tie several practices that your business engages in every day back to the 3 P's: People: Community and neighbor communication plans; Health and retirement benefits for employees; Competitive wages; Engaging in charitable gift giving and services. Planet: *Integrated Pest Management strategies like cultural, biological, and mechanical control; *Planting cover crops to protect water quality, control erosion, and provide habitat for beneficial insects; Using alternative sources of energy to reduce reliance on fossil fuels. Prosperity: Creating and sticking to a budget; Analyzing trends in sales, purchasing, and resource usage; Staying up to date with the latest information and technology; Being aware of upcoming regulations. * Overlap with Organic. Tell a Story Stories make facts more memorable. You can tell your customers that your brand practices social responsibility, but without sharing a specific example of what that looks like, you haven't really told them much! Next time someone asks you, “What's the difference between organic and sustainable?” try to share a specific sustainable example from the People or Prosperity categories: The Journey to Net-Zero 3 P's Category: Prosperity When the team at Center of Effort looked at their energy use, they discovered many areas where they could adjust to be more efficient. Over time, these changes have compounded to have tremendous energy savings: ·         Run their cooling system during off-peak hours. ·         Replace a 15-year-old chiller with a newer, more efficient one that allows for selective tank cooling. ·         Install a remote-operated quick-draw door in the production room to address insulation losses. Since making all of these changes, their winery and hospitality areas are now 100% powered by the sun. In fact, they now run net-negative and send generated power back to the grid! Did you see Center of Effort's Sustainable Story feature in Grape and Wine Magazine? Tell Your Sustainable Story We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program. This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing yours today!       Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team. Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Apply for SIP Certified Wine Center of Effort's Sustainable Story feature in Grape and Wine Magazine Marketing Tips eNewsletter Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic What's your Sustainable Story? Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Trying to manage the weeds in your vineyard? John Roncoroni, Weed Science Farm Advisor Emeritus with the University of California Cooperative Extension, Agriculture and Natural Resources covers control practices including biological, mechanical, cultural, chemical, and perhaps in the future, electrocution. Although weeds rarely compete with vines, they can host insect and vertebrate pests and get in the way of pruning crews, increasing labor costs. Listen in for John's number one tip to better manage weeds in your vineyard. Resources:         128: A New Focus on Weed Management (Rebroadcast) 26th IPM Seminar #1: Sustainable Weed Management for Vineyards and Vineyard Ponds Herbicide-resistant weeds challenge some signature cropping systems (Journal article) John Roncoroni MAINTAINING LONG-TERM MANAGEMENT: Herbicide-resistant weeds challenge some signature cropping systems Post-harvest Weed Control with Napa RCD and John Roncoroni (video) Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand – Western SARE (online courses) University of California Integrated Pest Management Integrated Weed Management Vineyard Floor Management: Steel in the Field (video) Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript Craig Macmillan  0:00  Our guest today is John Roncoroni. He is Weed Science Farm advisor emeritus with UC Cooperative Extension, UC Agriculture Natural Resources, and we're going to talk about cultural control of weeds in vineyards today. Thanks for being on the podcast, John.   John Roncoroni  0:13  Now you bet, Creg, thank you for having me.   Craig Macmillan  0:16  We met with we'll start with kind of a basic foundation, what would you say is the definition of cultural weed control? Maybe How does it differ from other forms of weed management?   John Roncoroni  0:25  cultural weed control as part of an integrated pest management program, you know, we have basically cultural mechanical, sometimes they're put together sometimes they're split, we have biological, which is much more important, I think, in insects than it is in weeds. Now, we talk about biological control of weeds just a little bit to show how it fits in with all this too, is that you know, when you see that rust growing on a malba, or cheese weed plant in California, people say, Well, maybe that can control and you can see sometimes it really weakens the weeds. But the one reason that doesn't work here very well as it does in other places is the same reason why we can grow such great grapes and make great wines in California is because it doesn't rain in the summertime, if it rained in the summertime, like it does. In many other areas, that moisture level would stay up and we probably have a better chance of controlling Malba. We do use biological control of weeds in more landscape like range land type at large areas, but really on any kind of agricultural situation where we're looking at control in one spot, it really doesn't work that well. Even with star thistle we be talking about people wanting to put our application of of weevils for start thistle. Well, they're out there, and they're on a larger scale. So that's biological, much more important in entomology than in Weed Science, a chemical control, obviously, the use of chemicals, either conventional or organic chemicals or control. And then we have mechemical or cultural you know, cultural weed control to me is using the utilizing the plants that are there or sheep in areas of the San Joaquin Valley that used to use ducks or geese to pull out Johnson grass rhizomes, yeah, we're utilizing sheep quite a bit more. Now. Of course, mechanical we're looking at when you look at something like a mower, right, a mower is mechanical and cultural because when you mow, you're leaving some plants. So you're mechanically mowing them down. But culturally, you're leaving plant where something like French flower, maybe a blade or or you know, one of the the weed knives are all the different moving wheels, maybe more considered mechanical.   Craig Macmillan  2:30  Let's talk about mechanical a little bit. There was a book I don't know if it's still in print. And it was a SARE book. And it was called steel in the field. And the author's thesis or premise or idea was if you drive around farm country, no matter what the crop is, there's always a graveyard of old implements, just parked just parked there, you know exactly what I'm talking about.   John Roncoroni  2:51  Oh, god. Yeah.   Craig Macmillan  2:54  And his his point was, all of those things were technologies that someone had come up with. And then the individual farmer, probably then made modifications to those for their site for their crop for their soil, then the herbicide era came on. And that wisdom was lost, basically. And the argument was, hey, maybe we can bring that that idea back. And I mean, this goes back to like the 80s, early 90s. It's happening, it's happened. What are some of your favorite technologies in terms of cultivation, mechanical weed control, and some of the limitations, some of the plants that works well with other situations where it doesn't? What's your experience been?   John Roncoroni  3:39  I love talking about that, Creg, is it you know, talking about using mechanical control, and then and then going into chemicals, and now going back, it's almost like I talked to people about chemical control itself. When I started, Roundup wasn't glyphosate was a new thing. And we used it very judiciously. And I tell people, it's almost like, I learned to drive with a stick shift. I had to learn all these other things. Well, after that people learned to drive automatics. Right, because they knew one way to do it. Well, now that we're back to using stick shift, it's a whole lot easier for me, because I remember now people have to read or write. It's, it's the same thing with the mechanical. And when I started a Davis, you know, in the early 80s, we probably first came to work in vineyards in Napa, close to Davis, about 85, 86. And at that point, there was a lot less drip irrigation, a lot more dry farming, and a lot more French plowed. One of the reasons was we didn't have drip irrigation. I mean, we all want deep roots, but you're going to have more shallow roots with drip irrigation. And that was one of the reasons we moved to chemicals away from this big pasture. We always had a blade, right something like to drop a name a Clemens blade, which we all know what that is. It just cuts. You know, one of the problems with that is if the soil is too moist, then it's going to cut and go right back. And there's been a lot of innovation. My colleague Marcela Moretti, a But Oregon State's done a lot of testing with different kinds of machines. You know, one of the things about mechanical or even like mowers is that so few growers have mowers?   Craig Macmillan  5:11  When you say mower? You mean an in row mower?   John Roncoroni  5:13  Yeah, I mean inrow mower. All right. And I'm sorry, I when I talk about weeds in vineyards, because I tell people I've made my whole career out of about three   Craig Macmillan  5:21  Three to six inches.   John Roncoroni  5:24  I have about a foot and a half. Right? Sometimes I'm up to four feet, right. So that's where my whole career is right there. And that we talk about when we talked about what we're doing in the middle is with cover cropping. That's a whole other podcast and probably, I mean, I've done cover crop work over the years with some large IPM grants. I did quite Elmore and some other things. Zalem and Jim McDonald Yeah, no, I'm talking about just under vine we're thinking. Yeah.   Craig Macmillan  5:53  All right we're under vine.   John Roncoroni  5:54  Talk about being a very specific expert - four feet. At the most.   Craig Macmillan  6:01  I got it. I get it.   John Roncoroni  6:02  You know, very few growers are using mowers we have the big bladed mowers and also we'll have a straight trimmer. I was trying to do some string trimmer work, but just using a little weed eater. My old friend, Mike Anderson, who was the superintendent or basically ran the oppo research station said that I could use a string trimmer in one of their vineyards over his dead body. And I was like, you don't want any girdling in those vines. So I know, there's been a lot of apprehension. There are some other kinds of mowers very, very, very few growers have mowers, from what I've just done some surveys, I've done one because you have to go back over and over and over, right? And then everything has been weighed against, well, we can just spray mowers or one, you know, there's several different and I can't remember all the trade names. But you know, there's some of the basic technology. Yes, there's some that do some stirring of the soils, you know, with blades that are perpendicular to the soil, right. So they're, they're stirring it, there's what we used to call and when I worked in bean weed control, Lilla stuns, which are wheels that turn sort of at a 45 degree angle to stir the soil. There's, you know, power driven machines, there's just ones that ride along and there's blades, there's, you know, there are so many, and it really depends on the kind of soil you have, you know, our rocky is sometimes the place where we put grapes are not a place where you could put tomatoes, right in times, shallow soil, hillsides, kind of cultivation, can you can you do cultivation? Can you do light cultivation without getting you know, soil movement? Can you even do it? Is it allowed by, you know, some rules about land use in those areas. So, there's a lot of things that go into mechanical and again, from my perspective, the weeds you have.   Craig Macmillan  7:54  I like this point here, because I think put to put things into kind of a general sense to guide things. We have blades that basically cut just below the surface. So that's cutting off the top of the plant from the bottom of it for certain kinds of plants that will kill it or control it. Then we have things like a French plow, which is a burying it's a true plow. Yeah, it's flipping soil, picking it up and flip flopping it over. Then we have the sturer. So you mentioned that little stun the central lines and other example, sun flowers. That's what they do. Yeah. Yeah. Things like that. My missing one.   John Roncoroni  8:26  mowers.   Craig Macmillan  8:27  mowers, okay. Yeah.   John Roncoroni  8:29  So that, you know, then there are a lot of variations on those combinations. It just amazing for me, and I follow a few of the manufacturers and get to see like on Twitter X, whatever, to see the videos that they're posting on LinkedIn. You know, it's just amazing to me what they're doing and the innovation that's going into those. One of the things that my again my colleague Marcel HomeReady, up at Dr. Moretti up at Oregon State talks about making sure your tractor is big enough for some of these, you know, hydraulic using, right, but one of the things we always used to talk about was, you know, the use of gas well, I know there's a lot more use and we're moving more into electric tractors, and those sorts of things. But when it comes to mechanical, really doing a good job of mechanical weed control with those some of those, you're going to have to have electric or gas you're going to have to have a big tractor. They're not going to be like a you know, a little ATV with a nifty 50 sprayer spraying herbicides right you're gonna need some hefty equipment in a lot of them not always.   Craig Macmillan  9:33  Let's start with weed knife. That's a very popular technology you see it oh yeah all over the place. What are the kinds of weeds that that's good for controlling and under what conditions it doesn't work well and under what kind of conditions does it not work well?   John Roncoroni  9:47  And I don't know the areas and passive as well as I know Napa I was brought a while but I would tell the growers you know, using a weed knife in Carneros you have about four days from when the soil goes from being too wet to being too dry. I have heavy clay soils, it holds moisture and it just. Yeah, exactly. And I'm sure there are areas like that, you know, and it can't, you can successfully cultivate down there, but it's tough, you need the timing, it's so important. If you're going to wet that soil just goes right back with that blade, right you cut through and the roots are able to tell back in, you know, if it's too dry, it's really going to be a rough ride. Because you're not going to go too deep, it's going to work well on some smaller annual weeds, which, you know, a lot of our weeds are, you know, some of the grasses with their net have a root ball sometimes are harder than just a small annual broadleaf plant, you know, you're going to have some problems, especially with something like malware, cheese weed that that grow very large. And depending on when you doing it something like cheese weed is and rye grass and Fillory, while I mentioned them are the first weeds to germinate in the fall. So by the time you get in a little bit later, they may be too big to really do a very good job on.   Craig Macmillan  10:59  Are their soils where we die for it's particularly well?   John Roncoroni  11:03  I would say you know, in less than heavy clay soil and not complete sand, a sandy loam soil, I think that holds some moisture, you know, it was able to get in anything, I think it's not a complete stand or a real heavy clay, they do a nice job, but the weeds can't be too big. And again, it's that timing and you know, with vineyards, it seems to think everything happens at once right time when you may be in having to do some sort of insect spray or mold spray, the same time you should be out there cultivating so just and it takes a while to do a good cultivation job.   Craig Macmillan  11:35  The speed that you're rolling is really important. You want to be slower ride faster.   John Roncoroni  11:40  Well, and Dr. Moretti has done this work there is an optimum speed. If you go too slow, then you really don't do a good job of cutting. If you go too fast, you miss some. And maybe this is where some of the electric AI technology can help. You don't want to cut the vines. Right, so you have this pull away, that keeps the weeds, the weeds will go right next to the vines, which you know can be a problem. We'll be talking about other situations with little vertebrate pets.   Craig Macmillan  12:06  I'm kind of getting astray here a little bit, but I No, no, but I think this is an important question. So choosing what I do and how I do it, we go back to the other technologies, Why care about weeds? Right? Why care about you know, I had I had a vineyard once that had been an oak field. And it was direct planted own rooted sprinkler system that was planted in 1976 I got the vineyard 1993 out of heavy clay soil, and I would irrigate with sprinklers twice a summer, and that oak grass would grow up into the fruit zone up into the canopy. But it would dry out. And it completely choked out everything else I had, I had no other real issues. And we would mow the middles. And I remember people going oh my god, you got all this issue, you need decent herbicide, you think grass out of the middle because the grass is gonna. And like these vines were super vigorous. They were tons of crop. I mean, I had to crop thinner. And so I started asking myself, well, how much competition? Is this really doing? Are there particular weeds that we should see? And you're like, wow, that's gonna be a competitor for water, nutrients and others where we go, No, I don't really want it there. But I'm probably not going to dig my vines.   John Roncoroni  13:13  So Craig, this is the eternal question when it comes to this. And it really depends on where you grow your grapes, right? If your goal is to get 25 tons of grapes, if you're somewhere near Bakersfield won't offend anybody, but they're looking more for tonnage. Right. And I've gotten a lot of flack for using our premium grape situations, we're not always looking for maximum tonnage. Right. And I don't know that the problem with weeds and if you hear me speak about weeds, I rarely have ever talked about direct competition between weeds and grape vines. Now, there are some exceptions, you know, when we were looking at that balance between irrigation and getting the deficit, irrigation, right, getting those maximum flavors into those grapes. So we may be right and a little low with our water in August or September, near the end. And we see that especially, I don't know so much about about I know, part of the areas where we are with the vineyard team there that they gave, we can get these howling north winds, right? Right. And you can in a very short time, you can turn some very great, expensive grapes into really great expensive raisins, right, getting that water in at that time of year. So having any kind of like flu Velen, which is really just covers the whole area of Napa and Sonoma. I know it's moving around some other areas. But you know, people say well, how much water does it use? And my old friend Rhonda Smith used always asked me well, how much water is it used? I go, we don't have crop coefficients for all the crops. It's hard to know which you know which weeds grow, how much water they use. And then the other thing too, is that if we're looking for consistency in a vineyard, and only half the vineyard is covered with that weeds where we're gonna put two too much water in one area and not enough in the other. Isn't that different? So it's competition for that sort of thing. And of course, young vines, right when we have young vines with big weeds and that that oak grass that you had, if you had young vines, you probably wouldn't have to be worried about being a grape grower very long, right?   Craig Macmillan  15:17  You have seen that young, really healthy barley cover crop?   John Roncoroni  15:21  Oh, yeah, it's it's tough for first three years. But like talking about establishments, it's really important, no matter what you do to keep the grapes sort of weed, not weed free, but really keeping the competition down. And then late in the summertime, but the rest of the time. It's other things that I've talked about these, it's one of those things where you ask people, you know, raise their hand if they have this problem. It's 50%. Yes. 50%. No. And that's voles. And I tell people, I thought that when I was in Napa, I think 30% of the growers do weed control strictly for vole protection. Because those nasty little marmots can they can girdle a grape. And I know one vineyard and Carneros they couldn't get in and do some work. Someone told me that one year they lost one in five vines. Wow. And they're not coming back. Right? That's, that's bad. Yeah. So you know, it can be a problem. We found this when we were working with mow and blow technology years ago, looking at cutting cover crop and throwing it on the vine. The Weed control was fantastic. But in my whole time, working in vines from 1985. And, you know, until today, I've never been in a vineyard, except in this trial, where I saw voles running between the rose in the middle of the day. Right, they were just happy there was so many they kind of had to get out just to get a breath of fresh air, they use those tunnels, you know, just runway so that they were protected from that, you know, the birds of prey, which you know, can help. And I people always ask about that. But again, we have that pest and prey cycle that the voles may come in and do a lot of damage, before they get a chance to be taken. And then it depends on what your neighbors doing and how effected the birds are. This is a question that I our new vertebrate pest person, Brianna Martineco in Napa who she took my office, not my place, right. So we we about a weed scientist. And one of the questions I've asked is, you know, how much of an area around the vines? Do we have to keep clean, so that the birds have a chance and the voles stay scared? You know, that's kind of question, you know, especially as an emeritus, you can ask these questions. And, you know, let the new people answer them. You know, the other thing and I've talked about this is in a rare occasion, you know, one of the things that we do you see people, anytime I'm out in the field later in the season, I talked to a grape grower, while we're out there, they're pulling those leaves off so they can get more air movement. Well, if you get some tall weeds like that, you know, the oak grass that was growing, you know, are you going to have restricted air movement? Are you going to have higher moisture content? Is that going to increase your pathogen pressure it can, doesn't always happen. The other thing too is having, you know, high grass can cause in frost prone areas, you know, if you're not getting that radiation from clean soil, and that's in the middle, not so much under the vines, you know, we can have that and sometimes on young vines near the vine itself, getting that reradiation, but again, you know, as I like to tell people, you're not going to have all these situations, and it's not going to be every year, you know, some years you're doing things you may not need to have weed control that year, but you don't know until after that year, you know, and now and I'm not I'm not a pathologist, I'm not an enthramologist, I'm not a viticulturalist I'm a weed scientist. But you know, there's been some indications that some weeds that are growing and some of the we plant and some of that we don't are having a, you know, an increase in pathogen plant pathogens that are moved by certain insects. tikka pirate likes legumes Well, you know, especially in some of our low nitrogen situations, plants that produce their own nitrogen, like Bird Clover really tend to like that situation because they have a, they have a built in advantage by making their own nitrogen. So we can in some vineyards, we can see a high population of bird clover, which may or may not cause an increase in tikka, which could cause an increase in red blotch. So, you know, when you think of weeds just specifically for competition, like when I talked to master gardeners, I say, you know, if you're growing carrot, you know why you do weed control because you want a carrot. But when it comes to a mature, you know, a 10 year old vineyard, really hard to see that weeds are going to compete on an everyday basis like they would with an annual crop, but there are other reasons why we do it. Ease of harvest, and I talked about, you know, in talking with some pruning crews, right, you know, if you have weeds growing in when you're pruning, and I tell people, if you have an area that takes an hour for let's clean, takes a pruning crew an hour to prune, if there's a bunch of weeds that they have to move around and get around, and it takes them an hour and a half. So your labor costs have gone up 50% Yeah, these are the kinds of things that as a weed scientist, I think about I tell people I really want to know two things. And when we're when we're taping this, it's the right time of year. I only know weeds in college. Basketball. So these are the only things I really know. So, you know, and I've had other I've had, you know, some people sit down and say I should have known that you have to worry about, you know, disease pressure, and getting labor contractors. And I just think about weeds.   Craig Macmillan  20:16  And let's go back to another technology that we touched on snow plows, French plow, that's a very old technology. And, you know, we just mentioned that what a plow does is it turns the soil over, so it buries the weed plants, especially when you get into the right time, what conditions are appropriate for using a French plow? What conditions maybe it's not gonna work so great.   John Roncoroni  20:41  French plow, I mean, you know, the USDA says that, you know, doing something like that the soil is never good, and you're going to mess up the microbes, especially if you're working on that lower area. But as far as just from a weed perspective, if you're dry farming, a French blot works fantastic, right? You're not looking for, in fact, you're trying to discourage as many roots at the top as you can. So doing using a French plow when you're dry farming, it's fantastic. We don't have you know, a lot of dry farms where we are looking at trying to have more consistent harvest and looking at consistent income, where you know, dry farming were at, at the will of the of the weather, that's another talk for another day with people who are doing marketing and know viticulture are better than I do. But see, I've seen more French plows as people have gone back to mechanical in the last few years, and I have in the past think there's a lot more viable options, when you're actually looking at doing some drip irrigation, then they're just by number a lot more viable options. Just by new having new machines coming out then the French plow but I was a dry farmer, my weed control would be French plow under the vines and disk in the middle because everything's you know, maybe having a little cover crop to get more penetration. But, you know, the farther north I lived, the more water penetration I would have. So I'd get more rain.   Craig Macmillan  22:00  So let's talk about drip irrigated vineyards. And you mentioned there's a suite of technologies, some are new, some are old, what are some of those technologies that have worked well in a drip irrigated vineyard?   John Roncoroni  22:12  When I got to Napa in 2007, sustainable at that point meant post emergent only and for those kind of funny now is roundup on the right no preemergent no cultivation and we were drip irrigating, we were keeping those roots at the top so we can drip irrigate. So that's where a lot of that came from. Now, you know, using something like a blade using a little Dustin with those moving things, anything that's sort of like you don't want routine, right? Again, I don't I'm not a vitaculturalist. But roots at the very top are not great, right, you're not probably irrigating correctly, if you're getting a lot of roots at the top, but you don't want to get too deep, where you're getting some of those main roots with cultivation. You know, that's one of the reasons that we do have drip irrigation. At that level. You know, I've talked to people who weren't using cultivation and ask them why their drip irrigation lines weren't closer to the soil so they're gonna have less evaporation. One of the things that we get into with grape growing or anything is that you do things because you've always done them that way, we are cultivating that we do need to keep that drip irrigation at at a higher at a high level. But I think any of those anything that's not just completely disrupting the soil. One of the things that I would like to see with with mechanical like a blade is using some electric eye, AI technologies to get closer to the vines. But right now we have to really, you know, it's all mechanical, right? If we can have these machines down in Salinas, that are taking weeds out from in between lettuce, we don't have to be nearly that technological, to get weeds right around the vine without hurting them. And we have a little bit more leeway with the vine than we do with lettuce. Even though you lose a lettuce plant here or there. You're okay. You don't want to lose too many vines. You know, I think that that's where one of the reasons that we could use more technology. One of the things again, my doctor Moretti up at Oregon State and also lenses masky. Back in Cornell, who they were both at Davis at the same time, Lynn as a postdoc, and, and Marcelo as a as a graduate student, they're working with electrocution of weeds, I think it's what they call it. And it's not just burning them off, like you would use electric light with a flamer. It actually sends electricity down into the roots. So it's, he's working on it mostly in blueberries. But the technology I just I saw his presentation at the Western society Weed Science meeting just a couple of weeks ago in Denver. It's an interesting technology. If you're like having a transformer on the back of your tractor. It's pretty cool.   Craig Macmillan  24:35  There's a there's a lot of potential here in the future for improving what we're doing now.   John Roncoroni  24:40  Oh, yeah. And I don't know how like electric is going to fit into this. But and this is the problem. We ran into herbicides. Anytime you use one technology over and over and over and over and over, you're going to choose for weeds. If you constantly mow under the vines or anywhere, right without some soil disturbance or application of herbicide, something Like Melva, low growing weeds, they'll adapt, right nature will find a way. So the biggest thing we have to do is whatever we do just don't do it all the time. That it's the right message. One of the things that I think we want to talk about was under vine cover crop. It is something for me, I've been trying to push under vine cover cropping for so long. And the problem is, is that because the seeds are expensive, I tell people that one of the one of the plants that I pushed, just because I liked the way it worked, and what I've seen is Zorro fescue. That's a brand name, it's it's rat tail fescue, you see it growing as a weed a lot of places, one of the things I like about it is that about the time we start irrigating, it's dead, it's the nest, and you can discover you can turn it over, because once it's gone to seed, you can mow it all those things. It's a it's a self receding cover crop problem is that because the seeds are fairly expensive, we planted at about eight to 10 pounds per acre and sometimes mixed with Blendo broam, which grows a little higher and stays a little greener longer than I like, because it can be some competition for water. But that's oftentimes keeps it down. But the problem is, is that first of all, how do we get it on the vines, I find people putting it out by hand, because we haven't adapted for the cedar under the vine. Second of all, it starts to reseed itself at a fairly high rate, sometimes 50 or 100 pounds the next year and the third year. So I tell people, if you can't give me three years to make it look good, then let's not start because oftentimes, you know, we started and it looks like it's not doing a very good job the first year, and it doesn't look very good. And some people who don't ask people who make decisions about vineyards who maybe work other places, then the vineyard don't like the way it looks. Right? Right, and we move to something else and they end up spraying it out or cultivating it out.   Craig Macmillan  26:55  Then this is an example of modifying the environment to address this problem and modifications to the environment take time.   Speaker 1  27:03   And this is what intrigues me about regenerative agriculture. I know this is a whole nother subject for someone who probably but as a we, as a plant biologist, and ecologist, you know, actually choosing plants that we want to be there without causing problems. Again, the voles, the legumes with maybe some other virus problems can be, but I think choosing these plants is going to be so important. But you know, it's interesting, I had someone call me and they wanted to start using regenerative agriculture. And I told them, you know, your first three years are going to be really hard I go, you have to choose the right plants, you're going to probably maybe even have some reduced yields. And they said, Well, why John, because my friend has been doing it 25 years, and he's doing great, because his soil knows what to do. So anytime we make that transition and transitioning to this under vine cover cropping. And there has been places in the past where we've tried to use a listen. But listen, because of insects and some other things. The problem with alyssum is after about three or four years, it gets to be about four feet thick. It's one of these things, it's good for a while, but after it kind of takes over, it can cause some holding in moisture and doing some other things. I mean, some people again, depending on how fertile your soil is, you know, some places it may not be a problem, but we have to look at it on a vineyard by vineyard scale. And that's been the thing about herbicides is you don't have to think about the basically the vineyard by vineyard,   Craig Macmillan  28:24  We're basically at a time but don't ask your boys. Is there one particular thing that you would say to grape growers on this topic of let's just say mechanical?   John Roncoroni  28:34  On the whole subject of weeds, Craig, I just want to say that they need to know their weeds better. Right? I know it sounds like I always have a chip on my shoulder. And now that we have to right thing about glyphosate is they really didn't have to think about didn't have to think about their weeds. So there's there's two things I want to know we're almost out of time, but we are out of time. But there's two things I want to say about this real quickly. And I know it's mechanical, but those people who are still using chemicals, they could do a better job. Right new nozzle shielding timing, think more about put as much time and effort into thinking about the weeds as you do about insects and pathogens. Know your plants. Don't just say I'm going to do this. It doesn't matter what the weeds are, know your weeds, know their biology. Know the timing, no matter what kind of control you're doing. And then once you do, get the best tool, like if you are still spraying in certain situations in certain vineyards, use new drip reducing nozzles, use shielded sprayers when you do mechanical, you know, don't just get that old thing that like you said, that's been sitting out in the back, right? Look at the kind of machine that you want to use what we do have, I think when it comes to weed control, the whole industry could do a much better job. Okay, one of the things that I put a slide up one time and I said look, I understand pathogens first and then insects, and then weeds and someone got up and corrected me and they said John, that's wrong. I said Oh really? They go? Yeah, it's pathogens, insects, fertilizers and weeds. Right so weeds and when it comes to weeds being third weeds are not just third weeds or a distant third. They only think for me about all the cons Diversity that's happened is that people have to think about weeds again, they have to go back to knowing what we knew before that before they all started using chemicals.   Craig Macmillan  30:07  So that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Our guest today has been John Ron crony. He is Weed Science firm advisor emeritus with UC Cooperative Extension, UC Agriculture Natural Resources. I followed you from afar for a long time. And I'm very excited to get you on the podcast. This has been a great conversation. Yeah, there's so much more to talk about, and I'm sure that we will, we will reconvene at some point.   Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

Businesses are vital contributors to the communities they serve. Beyond stimulating the economy and creating jobs, many business owners go the extra mile by creating a meaningful philanthropy program. Their efforts profoundly impact facets of the community that need support the most. Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values. Meaningful corporate social responsibility (CSR) strategies give businesses the opportunity to connect with community members, improve company culture, and cultivate consumer trust, all while doing good for causes they believe in. This week's Marketing Tip tells the Sustainable Story of how Oso Libre demonstrates tremendous Social Responsibility through the Por Vida Foundation. Supporting 4 Worthy Causes Oso Libre's founders, Chris and Linda, started the Por Vida Foundation in 2011 to support causes that are near and dear to their hearts. By using funding streams from multiple winery activities, they support: Veteran service groups Women's cancer research Animal support groups Children and family support groups This means that Oso Libre's guests and customers are giving back to these deserving causes, too! The proceeds from many weekend tasting fees and private events at Oso Libre are turned into charitable donations through the Por Vida Foundation. In the tasting room, the Votive Candle Offering welcomes visitors to light a candle and use the offering box to support these causes. Proceeds from sales of their Solera wine bottles are also donated. This is a special blend that the winery makes every year. It is treated like a growler at a brewery: Members can bring their empty bottle back to the winery to have it filled with the latest vintage. Their foundation is a tool to help them give back and inspire their supporters to join in the good feeling of philanthropy. Tell Your Sustainable Story We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program. This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing yours today!       Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team. Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Apply for SIP Certified Wine Marketing Tips eNewsletter Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member

In the 1880s, Pierce's disease caused a devastating, total collapse of the Southern California grapevine industry. Today, growers have hope for the future thanks to new varieties. Adam Tolmach, owner of Ojai Vineyard, planted four of these new varieties as a field trial on a plot of land where Pierce's disease wiped out his grapes in 1995.  Pierce's disease is a bacterium spread by insects, typically a sharpshooter. One bite and the vine dies within two to three years. To develop resistant varieties, Andy Walker of the University of California at Davis crossed the European grape Vitis vinifera with Vitis arizonica. 20 years later, commercial growers have access to three red and two white varieties. Listen in to learn how Tolmach's experiment is a success both in the vineyard and with customers. Plus get tasting notes for the new varieties. Resources:         REGISTER: The Ins & Outs of Developing a New Vineyard Site 89: New Pierce's Disease Vaccine (podcast) 137: The Pierce's Disease and Glassy-winged Sharpshooter Board 2021 Pierce's Disease Research Symposium session recordings Anita Oberholster, UC Davis Viticulture and Enology Webpage Office Hours with Dave and Anita, Episode 11: Pierce's Disease Resistant Winegrape Varieties Ojai Vineyard Pierce's Disease resistant winegrape varieties overview UC breeds wine vines resistant to Pierce's disease UC Davis releases 5 grape varieties resistant to Pierce's disease Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript Craig Macmillan  0:00  Our guest today is Adam Tolmach owner and winemaker of Ojai vineyard. Thanks for being on the podcast, Adam.   Adam Tolmach  0:06  It's my pleasure, Creg. Great to be here.   Craig Macmillan  0:09  I want to give a little background. Before we get into our main topic. We're gonna be talking about Pierce disease resistant grape vines today, but I think your location has a lot to do with how this came about. I don't think it's an overstatement to say that you are a pioneer and innovator and quite frankly, legend in the history of the Central Coast. And one of the pioneering things that you did was you planted a vineyard in Ojai, California, why Ojai? And what is the what's the environment, like, you know, hi.   Adam Tolmach  0:33  Ojai because in 1933, my grandfather bought a piece of property in Ojai while I grew up in Oxnard, we, you know, on weekends, we'd come up here and chase lizards and snakes and stuff like that. And so I'm pretty familiar with the area and then I lived in Ohio for a few years after I finished studying at UC Davis getting a basically a viticulture degree. I came down here and and ran a truck farming operation, we grew vegetables and sold sold them in a roadside stand. And after doing that for two years, I made $4,500 After two years of worth worth of work. So I had said well maybe I should try to get a job in my my field. So my second job in the field was was working at at Zaca Mesa, 79 and 80. And then so as far as the place to plant grapes, you know, that's the reason we're in Ojai because we the family owns property.   Craig Macmillan  1:30  What is the environment like in Ojai? Because I think it's a little bit different than many grape growing regions.   Adam Tolmach  1:34  Yeah, you know, it's actually not that different than I would say the east side of the Santa Ynez Valley like the happy Canyon area or you know, or Paso Robles. Really as far as climatic goes. thing that's a little bit different about Ojai is the wintertime lows aren't as low as they are up in the Santa Ynez Valley or up in Paso. And that's that's a big deal, especially when it comes to Pierce's disease.   Craig Macmillan  2:01  That's where we're gonna go next. When you planted, were there things that you were expecting? And then were there things that came out that were unexpected? And then thinking maybe Pierce's disease is one of those?   Adam Tolmach  2:11  Well, yeah, certainly was, you know, as I've started, you know, pretty ignorant. As young people tend to be, I knew that there was a history of winemaking and grape growing in Ojai, which pretty much died off with prohibition. Actually, after Prohibition, there was a good sized Zinfandel vineyard that ended up being buried in the bottom of Lake Casitas. That sort of what I knew a little bit about grapes. And I didn't really realize it. Pierce's disease also worked into all that that, you know, you plant a vineyard around here, and it's pretty difficult to keep them alive  for the long term.   Craig Macmillan  2:48  Just cover the bases. What is Pearson's disease?   Adam Tolmach  2:51  It was originally discovered in Anaheim, California, you know, back in the I believe it's 1880s or so there were 10s of 1000s of acres of grapes in that area 10 or 20 or 30 years out. In fact, it was a much bigger growing area than, than say Napa, up north was for for grapes. And those vines all died. And at the time, it was called Anaheim's disease. Yeah. And so later on, Mr. Pierce, I think, discovered a little bit about the disease. And what we know today is that it's a bacterium that is spread by an insect, typically from a sharpshooter. But there are other insects that also spread this disease. In our case, we're not too far from a river habitat, a riparian habitat, these bugs like lush, green growing areas, and they live in the river bottom, all they have to do is get blown by the wind up to our place. If the insect is carrying this bacterium, it just takes one bite. And then within two or three years, the vine dies because basically the bacteria clog up the water conductive tissues.   Craig Macmillan  3:59  Exactly. When you were first addressing this problem. What kinds of management things did you do to try to manage this?   Adam Tolmach  4:06  Well, we didn't back then. And as we are now we're reasonably committed organic growers. So you know, we don't use herbicides, we don't use insecticides. And you know, I learned as the vineyard died, basically what was going on? So we didn't really do anything, preventative wise. And so the vineyard just slowly declined, right, which is pretty sad thing to see that really considering that I planted you know, every one of the vines in the beginning back in 1981.   Craig Macmillan  4:37  Yeah, yeah, exactly.   Adam Tolmach  4:39  And then so we went on, after that, and for years, you know, so the vineyard grew from planted in 81. And then in 1995, after the harvest, we pulled the vineyard because it's so much of it was gone from the disease and then and then there are many years where we you know, didn't grow any grapes on our property. We purchase grapes from mostly, you know, I'm from the Ohio area a little bit, but also mostly from the Northern Santa Barbara County. That area from Santa Maria to Lompoc is really where ideal grapes grow. But I'd always have a hankering to have, you know, to continue to have a vineyard here because we do have the winery right on site here. Close friends and family knew Andy Walker, who was the one who was developing these grapes that were at UC Davis that were resistant to Pierce's disease. You know, I kept kind of pushing the friends to see you if I could get some of these cuttings or plants. And then finally, really just a year or two before they were actually officially released to the public for sale. I was able to get enough to plant a very small vineyard here which is just 1.2 acres, and it's planted to four different varietals. All four of them were developed by by Dr. Walker that He basically took Vitus vinifera the European grape variety and crossed it with Vitis Arizonica in Arizona is a native of the southwest and there are some plant breeding advantages to using Arizonica, it carries the resistance, they can somehow see that really well in my days of knowing how all this stuff works is a little bit past but but there were there are certain advantages that Arizonica provided a one of which was it's a pretty neutral tasting grape. And then also the the second thing was, they were able to pick out right away if they did a cross whether they can tell whether it had the resistance or not. So they did worked on that he's worked on it for about 25 years. And in the end, he had these varietals that were that are 97% vinifera. And only 3% of the American stock, which is pretty important for the flavor profile. They taste very much like the different wines, not like you know, the native wines.   Craig Macmillan  6:53  And then you've expanded that vineyard, I'm assuming you had your trial vineyard and expanded it.   Adam Tolmach  6:57  No, no, no, it's all it's all we have is this 1.2 acres. Yeah. And so you know, we mostly make conventional grapes. So you know, we make Pinot Noir Syrah Chardonnay Sauvignon Blanc and a few other things. And we get some of those grapes from the Ojai area and in spots where they're when they're where there's less Pierce's Disease pressures. And then also up in Northern Santa Barbara County, as I said before, and so yeah, we're just we're still working with, with what we have, we found that the vines are very productive. And we are currently making really just the right amount that we need to provide our direct customers with the wines. It's been a fabulous experiment and great fun, because basically knew, but nobody knew how to grow these grapes. And each grape variety grows a little differently. And so then that was that was a real challenge there. Because I had grown grapes in the same spot before I knew some of the problems and challenges and they had a real strong sense of how I wanted to grow them a second time around. And so that was super helpful. But it's still they still were unknowns for for us, you know, the bigger the crop level, all that stuff, the taste. And then so that was great fun. And then in winemaking wise, Andy Walker had done a number of public tastings of these experimental varieties, I think I went to four of them, where they're mostly were three gallon lots that were fermented by the university. And so it's a little hard to tell from that, but they just seem like there was some potential there. Interestingly, Camus vineyard early on, got some of the vines have this one variety paseante noir. And so they made a really almost commercial size lot of that one, and I was able to taste that before I planted it. And while their winemaking style is a little different than mine, there was it was clear that there was like lovely potential in those grapes. So that was encouraging. But still, we knew nothing, we had no idea. It's still a work in progress it. You know, after five years of producing wine, there's a lot more to learn about how to best make these works. But so anyway, we planted four varietals one is passeante noir, which I think is sort of the best of the ones that I've I've tried. We also had a red, that is really it was never released to the public. So it's a you know, it's our own little thing. We have a small amount of that we call it Walker red. And then we have two whites caminante blanc and ambulo blanc and they're both to go back. Well to go on, I guess is the ambulo blanc and the caminante blanc are distinctively different. They're a bit on the Sofia and blanc side of life, I suppose. But not exactly. And then going back to the passeante noir that's I feel like it sort of tastes like a cross between between syray and maybe cab franc And then possibly some mouved you know, it's a little hard to, to read exactly what's there, but they're unique and different. And you know, in a world from 30 years ago, people wouldn't have known what to do with them. But these days, there's a lot of interest in unique grape varieties, you know, all over Europe, people are, are reviving ancient varietals that nobody's ever heard of, and they all have unique flavors and unique characters. Here are some newly bred ones that that are available now.   Craig Macmillan  10:27  What is the response from consumers have been like?   Adam Tolmach  10:29  Well, that's, that's been super encouraging. Because so you know, we're selling almost exclusively directly to our, our consumers, we have a tasting room, and we have, we do mailorder as well. And but I mean, it's been very positive, we've been able to sell out the wines, people seem to really enjoy them. So it that's been a thrill to, you know, have that consumer acceptance, I think it would be much more difficult if it was, you know, in a grocery store, for instance, but because nobody would know what the name meant. When we're able to hand sell it, it has not been difficult to sell. So that's, that's been super fun. Now, Dr. Walker, also, he had the idea that these varieties, you could grow them and use them as blending material, you know, like if you're making Cabernet Sauvignon in the Napa Valley. It's well known that in the Napa Valley near the Napa River, there's huge Pierce's disease problems. And so is one of his ideas is well you could you know, plant strips of of these varietals be able to have at use the ground productively and then blend them with Cabernet Sauvignon as long as you're over 75% You could call it Cabernet. But what's amazing to me is that the this Passeante Noir is really it's it's it works pretty well as a standalone varietal.   Craig Macmillan  11:41  Were you tempted to to blend we attempted to use these as blenders? Or were you committed to single varietal all along?   Adam Tolmach  11:48  I was much more interested in what they had to say. Yeah, so there wasn't very much interest in my part of of using them to stretch of wine or whatever to you know, to add to something else. It was an option I you know, if they weren't as good as they are, I would definitely could put them into you know, inexpensive bland we make it Ojai read or Ojai white. And so that was definitely an option. But I'm kind of thrilled that they you know, they're interesting enough, they can stand alone.   Craig Macmillan  12:13  Do you think that you'll expand your planting?   Adam Tolmach  12:15  Possibly right now, No, I've got too many things going on. And in this little vineyard year, being small as I do, I do all the pruning, and do some of the work out there. And so it's kind of a family affair. I'm not sure if I want to overwhelm my family with more. For our needs, we don't need too much more. As as things stand. We're we're pretty small size operation. And this is pretty much, well takes care of it. Interestingly, in the same vein, I own a small vineyard, up in the Lompoc area in Santa Rita Hills called Vaciega that's planted to Pinot Noir. And there's one area of the vineyard is kind of up on a little bit of up on a, a mesa or something in between, you know, above quite a bit above the river. The Santa Ynez river. But there's one small section of the property. That's right, basically, in the river bottom, it had been planted to Chardonnay and died of pierces within eight years of its planting. So it was pretty, pretty devastated. And so we actually planted the passeante noir down there and got our first crop this year into that world last year in 2013. And we're pretty excited by that. So really different climate to grow in. So you know, cool climate versus pretty warm climate. It seems pretty, pretty fascinating right now, I'm pretty excited by that. So we do you know, we do have more just not here in Ojai.   Craig Macmillan  13:43  Would you commit like, what are you going to cultural notes on each variety? And then also what are your like winemaking notes on each variety because this podcast is growers and winemakers and we can get a little bit more technical if you like.   Adam Tolmach  13:54  Oh, sure. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So Andy Walker released five different varietals, three red, and two whites. I have the two whites and I have only one of the Reds that are commercially released. And that one is paseante noir and paseante Noir is a very vigorous grower. We're on pretty rich soil, I mean, richer than you need for grapes, mostly eluvial stuff. You go down three and a half, four feet, and it's, you know, it's river rocks, and then there are shaley areas, but it's rather richer than you need. We haven't planted on one 114 rootstock which is quite deinvigorating. But in our site, it's still exhibits lots of vigor. And so the paseoante noir grows like crazy. We have planted pretty close together. So our rows are five and a half feet apart, rather than, you know, six or eight or 10. And I did that specifically, for climatic reasons, you know, you get these rows a little bit closer together. You get a fairly tall vertical trellis. And what you end up with is, is a little more shading. And we have this really narrow canopy, the grapes all get some direct sun, but just not for very long, a little bit in the morning a little bit in the afternoon, the rest of the time, they're shaded, also the ground is shaded a lot, because they are so close together. And I think that keeps the temperature down. And I think that's really better for quality. And that's, you know, my personal view on it. And, and that's worked really well we've never, we've never had a situation yet where, you know, it's gotten so hot that the grapes have rasined up, you know, just like overnight, it's not just not happened. So yeah, so here we have the paseante noir it's you know, it's a real vigorous grower, I have a quote on pruned it's incredibly productive. We've been dropping, you know, 50% or more of the grapes as a as a green drop every year and I think I need to double down and drop even more as it turns out, they really want to produce in part of its, you know, part of it is our rich soil, but I think they're also bred to be quite productive. So that's, that's really nice. You know, better than too little, which is, you know, kind of Pinot Noir is problem, generally speaking, the walker red is this one that nobody really knows about, but it's, it's a little more like if the paseante is is a cross between, in my mind a cross between Syrah and cab franc and the walker read is a little more Zin and Grenache kind of character grows a little more upright and with less vigor, a lot more like how Grenache grows. And then the two whites the caminante blanc produces these little tiny clusters that somehow end up always produced, you know, the yields are still high, even with the small berries, small clusters, they give a little bit of a blush to them almost, they're not completely green when they're fully ripe. And they have a really distinctive spicy character, they're quite interesting. And that one is the weakest growing, there's no bigger problem there, it grows along fine with it, it fills up the canopy, but just barely every year, because of the size of the clusters, you just don't expect there to be much crop, but it always turns out to be very generous. And then the other varietals is called ambulo blanc. And it's a little, maybe has a bit of Sauvignon Blanc, spiciness to it. But it also is it's got a much more sort of Chardonnay ish, like, produces large clusters. And it also grows vigorously. So it requires a lot of the trellising is really, really important. And so we spend a lot of time in the ambulo blanc and paseante noir, you know, weaving weaving the canes up, right.   Craig Macmillan  14:06  Based on your experience, would you say, Hey, this is a great idea. If you live in a Pierce's disease area, you should definitely try this out.   Adam Tolmach  17:55  Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah. Because I mean, if the if Pierce's Disease is pretty strong, you're you know, you're left with, you know, having to use a lot of insecticides, and they're very bee unfriendly insecticides. And so, you know, we're able to grow here completely organically. That's worked out really well. So that's, that's, there's a great advantage there. I noticed in your questions at the you had to get sent me a list of questions. And one of them is like, what else should they be working on at the university? And definitely, my opinion is, you know, the biggest disease problem of grapevines in California is called powdery mildew. Everybody knows about it, why there aren't more powdery mildew resistant vines out out here yet is, is is interesting, you and every other trade, people that are kind of, you know, they, they praise, the new things that are coming along, the progress has been made in the wine business, everybody wants to just the old thing, just the way it's always been, that's a little bit of a stumbling block in a world where the climate is changing. So that's what that's why I really recommend that's what should be worked on is is resistance to powdery mildew, because it's not going to get better with climate warming. And also, it's it's the reason that we drive through our vineyards, you know, five or 10 times in a season just for powdery mildew control, it would be an incredibly great environmental thing if we could grow great tasting grapes and make great wine out of powdery mildew resistant varietals.   Craig Macmillan  19:27  And I think people are starting to move that direction.   Adam Tolmach  19:30  Oh, yeah.   Craig Macmillan  19:31  But you're right, bring it on. You know, let's, let's try where can people find out more about you?   Adam Tolmach  19:36  You can go to our website, you know, Ohiovineyard.com. And there's, there's lots there's tons of information about about us and me and what we're doing and we have, there's a whole article on on the site about the Pierce's resistant vines that we're growing.   Craig Macmillan  19:52  Very cool. Well, um, so our guest today has been Adam Tolmach owner, winemaker. Oh, hi, vineyard. Thanks so much for being on the podcast. This is great. Right   Adam Tolmach  20:00  Yeah my pleasure I've been listening to your show now for quite some time I really enjoy it   Craig Macmillan  20:04  oh good fantastic thank you and for all of our listeners out there thank you for listening to sustainable winegrowing with vineyard team   Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

Employees who are regularly trained and educated report higher levels of motivation, performance, company loyalty, and more. Yet, almost 52% of employees in the food and beverage industry only receive training when they join their organization. Of those that do receive regular training, only 4.5% receive training about their company's mission and values (TalentLMS, 2019). Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values. In this Throwback Thursday Marketing Tip, we're revisiting the most downloaded Marketing Tip Monday episode of 2023: #178: The Training Your Tasting Room Staff Needs. Why Education Matters If you aren't regularly providing training and education for your staff, especially on your company's mission and values, you're missing out on opportunities to create a stronger, more dedicated team! One way tasting room managers can educate their staff on the company's mission and values is to have continual conversations about what your brand is up to behind the scenes, i.e., your sustainability efforts. Tips from an Insider The hospitality team at Center of Effort can tell you all about the brand's commitment to sustainability. In recurring staff meetings, the team talk about what's going on in the winery and in the vineyard, plus what the brand is doing to improve their sustainability. John Gayley, Hospitality Team Member at Center of Effort says there are three big benefits to these conversations about sustainability: Staff know their input matters. The business improves its sustainability. Guests get a richer, more meaningful tasting experience. “Education really enforces the importance of each of our roles in helping Center of Effort stay up on its sustainability efforts,” John shares. “Hospitality staff reinforce the brand. We can highlight our commitment to sustainability more if we understand what we are doing both fundamentally, and the new and exciting things we're doing to improve. These conversations keep everyone engaged and ready to come up with new ideas.” John often takes guests on vineyard tours. He says that people are “fascinated by what goes on in the vineyard, and by the thought that goes into the sustainable approach.” Visitors love learning about cover crops, irrigation, owl boxes, and more. “When guests talk with a well-informed team member, this helps all of us in our mission of sustainability.” We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program. This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing yours today!       Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team. Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Apply for SIP Certified Wine Marketing Tips eNewsletter Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic What's your Sustainable Story? Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member

An antiquated California law makes the use of autonomous equipment in the vineyard challenging. Michael Miiller, Director of Government Relations at the California Association of Winegrape Growers (CAWG) explains that workplace safety standards developed in the 1970s based on 1940s equipment state that self-driven tractors must have an operator onboard. To update this law, CAWG is working closely with manufacturers and countries that allow autonomous equipment to aggregate data on safety. Automation has many potential benefits to farm workers include developing transferable skills, upward mobility, precision agriculture, and increased safety. Learn about how the law works today and about funding opportunities to train staff. Resources:         117: Grapevine Mildew Control with UV Light 120: Autonomous Drone Vineyard Spraying 219: Intelligent Sprayers to Improve Fungicide Applications and Save Money California Association of Winegrape Growers (CAWG) Legislative Action Center California's ongoing ban of autonomous tractors a major setback Department of Industrial Relations Regulation Title 8 Section 3441 Operation of Agricultural Equipment Electric, self-driving capable tractors roll into California North Coast vineyards. North Bay Business Journal. (Partial pay wall) Frequently Asked Questions Self-Propelled Agricultural Equipment (CAWG Member Login required) Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript Craig Macmillan  0:00  Our guest today is Michael Miiller. He is Director of Government Relations at the California association of wine grape growers. And thanks for being on the program.   Michael Miiller  0:09  Thank you for having me.   Craig Macmillan  0:11  The talk today is where we're at with autonomous tractors as they give a presentation, and you brought up some of the issues we were facing. And I know you've worked on this a lot as well, if you can tell us as of where we are here, end of February 2024. Are we going to get our detractors or not?   Michael Miiller  0:30  That's a really good question. And you can approach them in a whole bunch of different ways. One is we already have them, the technologies there. Now they're being used in many vineyards, across companies around the world. They're also being used in orchards and fields and other commodities. And the reasons for that are in that it's not just economics, it's also about availability of workforce. It's about precision, agriculture, precision, viticulture, making sure that we are good stewards of the land. And it's also about looking to the future, making sure that we have a sustainable industry to grow by grower sustainable vineyard is a huge investment in So on one hand, yes, we already have that. On the other hand, there are continued complications of California law with it. The law states that if you are using self driven tractors, and that's the language in the California workplace safety standards, self driven tractors, then that means that you're supposed to have a driver on board that equipment. So if you have an autonomous tractor that is self driven, meaning that it's programmed to operate without a driver on board, but through electronic means through technology, then you're supposed to have a driver on that board, no matter what. And that law obviously very antiquated. It was, you know, created in the 1970s is one of the very first workplace safety standards in California, is based on 1940s technology. And it's basically targeting for a guided tractors and seeding you mechanisms, as well as irrigation, those kinds of things. And that really targeting the tractors or technology we have today just wasn't even a fathem of possibility back in the 40s 50 60 70. So this is all new logic doesn't address that issue. So in that sense, we're not there yet. But we're getting there.   Craig Macmillan  2:24  Reading up on this topic. But first of all, I can see why it came about. Because I remember growing vegetable fields where people were laying irrigation pipe, and there was nobody in the trenches. And I thought, wow, and then also I thought that was really dangerous is someone who then has to jump up into the tractor to train the roads. So they're putting the wheels and things I can understand that. And yeah, nobody had any idea we'd be here today. So where's the resistance coming from this point from this code from Cal OSHA that coming from the legislature was we're, what's the book that we're reading from?   Michael Miiller  2:57  So it's a couple of things. One hand, while there is resistance for some talk about where where we have embraced, right, where we have people welcoming, you have to remember that the California is the place where agriculture and technology intersect, right? We're largest agricultural state in the nation with a home of great innovation technology. So for these things to come together in California, um, it isn't by happenstance, you know, it's because the technology is here that needs parties here. And people generally understand that this technology, you know, while it seems new, or there's something that is up and coming and in development, it is here already, and it is here to stay. So people do genuinely know that, you know, looking at regulators looking at politicians, they generally get that there is a need to get this right. Okay. So that's the good part of it. The resistance comes in a couple places. One, you have labor unions, who basically fundamentally think that they're gonna lose jobs, technology, right? That for every track that has being driven and remotely, yeah, that's one less tractor driver. And they see that as a job loss in this example. We don't see it that way. We fundamentally believe that in California, there are two tractor jobs for every one tractor driver, you know, we just don't have enough workers to do the job. So in that reality, we're not losing jobs. We're just not. That's just not the reality. And the other part of it, too, we also know that if you take the average person who was working on a tractor and say, Hey, would you rather ride that tractor all day long? Or would you rather operate that tractor remotely from a laptop computer with a skill that is transferable to other industries? I would say more than 99% of those drivers say, yeah, you take me off the tractor. If I can do it remotely? Absolutely. Why would I want to be on the tractor? We don't really see it as a job loss issue. We also see more as a job safety issue. And we know that with technology, the firm is much much safer. It just is because of how the machine is designed to be used. If you're spraying pesticide with it with a machine It is going to be more precise, where it is applied. And it's going to be lesser in amounts and how much is applied. So we think that that is increased worker safety, as well as the basic fact that there's nobody on that tractor, it's less likely that someone's going to get hurt by that tractor. So we really fundamentally believe that is actually as a increase worker safety, increased environmental safety, as well as no job loss. But that is really views are coming from they're fundamentally concerned about job loss, I would never speak for them, you should talk with them yourself. But that's what they testify to in public hearings, then you look at the other issue, the big the bigger public perspective, and the bigger political conversations that happen around it. And we talked about anything that is automated, as far as you know, equipment, vehicles driving around, the first place people go to as those taxis in San Francisco, and they look at it from that perspective, okay. You've got busy roads, you've got hills, you've got curves, you've got pedestrians, you have all of those factors. And then they look at the videos that are, you know, online and computer, you know, YouTube, whatever. And they see those occurrences which, frankly, are very infrequent and not the common occurrence, but they're an infrequent occurrence. But they see those infrequent occurrences and they see them as commonplace, even though they're not. And then they see them, as is something that, you know, applies to all autonomous equipment, all self driven equipment. And in reality, if you're looking at, you know, the tractor moving two and a half miles per hour through a vineyard, when nobody's there, you have a very different situation than, you know, 1000 pound, you know, semi truck going down the interstate for a taxi in downtown San Francisco, was a very different situations. And so we think that we really just look at ag equipment autonomously in a vineyard, because we represent winegraoe growers, that it should be a whole separate conversation from all of the other, you know, autonomous equipment conversations,   Craig Macmillan  7:03  There are autonomous tractors in other states, right, and other countries. So is it possible to bring in these races from these other places, and make an argument that would be persuasive?   Michael Miiller  7:17  That is exactly what we're doing. We believe, whenever you're writing, a workplace safety regulation, this should be based on data should be based on evidence should be based on facts. It shouldn't be based on hyperbolic concerns and discussions, right? Although there's always you know, the the element of people to be safe and where there are concerns. And those concerns or concerns are expressed broadly. Some people I think, take anecdotes and view them as facts or evidence, when in reality, an anecdote is not, you know, conclusive evidence. So we're looking at that evidence from not only other states, but other countries as well. You look over Europe, South America, Australia, New Zealand, I mean, this equipment is in use, and they have data of the manufacturers have. And they put that together, some of the labor unions have resisted that data, they think that if the worker isn't represented by a union, then the worker is afraid to file a complaint or speak up and therefore the data isn't reliable. And in California, you've got less than point 5% of our ag forces represented by a union. Most workers in California don't want to be in a union, they don't see any gain to their advantage in that. In that reality, then it's incumbent on us to come up with all that right data and all that right evidence. And that's what we're doing. We're working closely with those other countries, manufacturers, those countries and others. I recently met with the company from New Zealand, and they were had a very interesting presentation about how they have a robot that goes through the vineyard. And it scans in real time looking for viruses and diseases. If you think of for red blotch, for example, right, the robot will go through it a cup, and then the grower and your manager will get on their computer screen, an image of that vineyard with specific locations of where there's a problem and where it needs to be treated. So that grower can then take a robotic tractor, go into that vineyard the next day, and sprayed just those locations where there are problems. And they're doing that in New Zealand and heavy hills, all kinds of terrain, and they're doing it successfully in a very safe way. And that's evidence that we that we you know, gathering and putting together and we think that that's ultimately gonna be very helpful to us.   Craig Macmillan  9:37  You brought up an interesting point that is certainly talked about autonomous tractors and tractor are mentioned or equipments mentioned in either zero. This is Cal OSHA regulation?   Michael Miiller  9:47  Correct.   Craig Macmillan  9:48  Does this apply to things like automated robots?   Michael Miiller  9:51  Probably because remember, when you're talking about self driven agricultural equipment equipment.   Craig Macmillan  9:56  Yeah, then can be very broad. Interesting, interviewed a number of different posts for the podcast that are working on automated robots to do all kinds of stuff. And this exact problem had really occurred to me.   Michael Miiller  10:10  If you think about it from the perspective of some of the sprayers that are out there now, there's a sprayer that has like three different models. And there is no, you know, driver's seat, there's no steering wheel, there's no accelerator, brake, clutch, gear shift none of that. It's all operated remotely. So even if you wanted to put somebody on top of that sprayer and have it running through the vineyard, there's no place a person to be. It's just not physically possible. Right?   Craig Macmillan  10:39  Where are we have what's coming up next? We're in February 2024. And you had mentioned public hearings and testimony speaking in the Senate, what's the next phase on this topic?   Michael Miiller  10:49  So we're working closely with the manufacturers, we believe that the best way forward is mobile a couple of things. If your viewers are members of the California Association of wine grape growers, we put out a FAQ fact sheet that we think will help growers to use equipment under California law legally in California, in California, the key is that we using that equipment, it shouldn't be anybody else in the vendor, right? If the tractors going through doing his work, just make sure that there's nobody there. Because if you do that, then it is not really a workplace. Remember, the regulation is a workplace safety standard that applies to a workplace. So if there's nobody there is not a workplace, that law doesn't apply to that. And again, I'm not your lawyer. So I encourage you to read our FAQ sheet, but that also talk with your legal counsel and your HR professionals. Make sure that works for your specific situation. Very broadly speaking, if there's nobody in the in the vineyard, then it's not really work because it should be elaborative. But that means you should also keep the records of that, how do you how do you document that there's nobody there and keep your payroll records, make sure it's all detailed, keep time logs about when the machines that use or where it's in use, you make sure you've got all that documented for a minimum of six months. So that if there's ever a citation issue, if somebody files a complaint, you can then say, Okay, here's what you know, here's what we did, here's how we did it. And there's nobody there. Therefore, it's not a workplace, and therefore, there's no basis for the citation. So that's in the short term, because, again, I have visited a number of venues where the equipment is in use. And that is fundamentally how it's often used right now, with nobody around the equipment they the operative late at night, they operate on doing equipment that doesn't really require anybody to be in the vineyard. So it fits what's in practice today is to really look at that separate from a workplace safety standard, because it's not really a workplace. So that's the short term. And the long term, we really got to fix this regulation, we just have to the regulation is goes back to the disco age, for God's sake, right, music has changed. So it's technology. So and so was fashion, right? So yeah, I don't have any bell bottoms anymore. So so we need to think about, you know, how that regulation, you know, should read and how it should apply to just autonomous equipment and what that would look like. And part of that is going to have to come from the manufacturer, industry from the from that sector, because they're the engineers, they're the experts, they know how to do that, right? The agricultural end of it, we can bring all kinds of evidence to bear about why it's needed, and why it's appropriate, why it needs to be updated, the details of the equipment itself, what if defined with equipment is in a way this engineer and how its technology is used, then you have to look at how to operate that equipment safely and what that looks like and how that, you know, operates. And then you go look at where is equipment intended to be used and for what purpose. So you've got to put all that together in a regulation that your reflects the science, not only of today, but also where things are going. So because we have to keep going back and just as regulation of science, develops, technology grows over time, is gonna be a long, long continual investment process of the regulation. And we think it should be written in a way that reflects what's happening today, with also our appreciation of what's coming down the road, is we know that there's more coming. I mean, we're at the tip of the iceberg of what the technology can do right now.   Craig Macmillan  14:35  Oh, yeah, no, you're absolutely right. I the role of humans in this is always the tricky bit. It's kind of an aside, but I'm old enough to remember when laser cutters first came out. It was kind of a panic that you're gonna put an eye on you're gonna blind somebody with these, you're gonna and no, I don't want to shine in my eye but they're all over the place. I use them all the time and they're just they're not illegal. Don't put it in an airplane. Hopefully we can kind of get past some of it. So one of the reasons I say that is, again, I've talked to many guests, they're going full on in this area. And they've got federal funding, like you said, it's being it's being implemented in all over the world. And we need to catch up.   Michael Miiller  15:13  Frankly, if you're a grower in California, and you're not thinking about looking at precision agriculture, and how do you use this technology, you're making a mistake, because it really will benefit every part of the industry. I firmly believe that and it'll benefit our workforce, our communities, everybody involved. Well, another example perhaps for me too, is you mentioned laser printer. The other ones, I remember the 70s When I was a kid, the invention of scanning groceries, the barcodes at the cash register, right? That didn't exist before early 70s. Right. And one of the places where there was a lot of pushback on it was from cashiers, they thought you're going to replace my job with these machines are going to scan the groceries. And if you talk to the average grocery cashier today, they would not want that job otherwise, because it makes their job a lot easier.   Craig Macmillan  16:05  You still need cashiers.   Michael Miiller  16:07  Correct. Yeah.   Craig Macmillan  16:08  Yeah. I mean, that role didn't go away. You know, when I first met you, I saw you give a talk. And I asked you a question. I'm gonna answer this question here. That does a really interesting answer. We're definitely moving this technology direction. There's no doubt of it. When we're talking automation, we're talking robotics, we're talking electrical driven motors, on and on and on, this is going to take a pretty sophisticated workforce to not only operate, but also to maintain nationally or in California, are we bringing people into learn these topics in these areas?   Michael Miiller  16:46  That's a good question. It's a several layered answer. You know, one is one hand. Yes, we are. I mean, when you're looking at some of the manufacturers who are doing some of this product testing, they're making sure that there are people trained to operate their machines, and there's the training themselves as part of the package, when you buy the tractor, you're gonna get some assistance and training your employees to have a part of it as you have Fresno State university, UC Davis, Cal Poly, a lot of community colleges, who are already training in some of this work, they're they're making sure that where there is training of agriculture industry, that that training includes technology, right. They're training people, you know, for all of that, as well as for the marketing in the industry, product, all of it. So the training is already happening as well, or I mentioned earlier, where we know that there's some embrace of this issue, the governor just recently announced that there's going to be a $10 million program at the EDD employment training panel, where there's some money being provided for agricultural employers to train their employees and various things, not just technology, it can be all kinds of different issues. But the idea goes to make sure that we have a sustainable workforce of workers are getting trained in skills that will benefit them through upward mobility, transferable skills, and all of that. And that $10 million is for that purpose. So if you're the if you're the grower, who's wanting to make that change, and move, move from, you know, traditional tractors to self driven automation, whatever kind of equipment you're going towards, you know, it might be an option for that grower to, to apply for a grant for the ETP, to get some funding to train those people in that new skill. So there is a lot of recognition of the need to train workers and to make sure that that people have the skills necessary. One of the big ones you mentioned was how do you maintain these tractors, right, if you've got an electric tractor, you know, that's operating on the battery. And it's a whole different mechanism than if you have a tractor, that's diesel gasoline, you know that how you repair that equipment, how you service equipment, you maintain it, it's a bit of a different skill. So we need people who are trained in that as well as how to operate it. So there's a pretty substantial need for training people. And I think that that's kind of the appeal of it too. Because all those skills are transferable. When we look at our workforce, we see that the average ag worker is getting older and older. That's because we're not bringing in a lot of younger people, right? They don't want to do the ag work, they want to do something different, right? They're more interested and motivated to do other kinds of work. So if we can look at that reality for younger workers and say, how do we make this job more appealing to them? And we're applying these kinds of technologies and skills, they will come back because at work in the 70s is very different than ag work today with this technology. It's just an entirely different thing.   Craig Macmillan  19:46   If there was one thing that you would tell a great or on this topic, what would it be?   Michael Miiller  19:52  I'll start with this. I'm a Midwestern kid. I was born in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. I spent most of my childhood in Iowa and Wisconsin, my tie back to agriculture is from that Midwest experience, right. And my uncle has a farm outside of Mitchell, South Dakota. And I would go help them as farmers and I drive tractor and do whatever he had. He had hogs. He had some cattle, he grew soybeans, corn, alfalfa, all kinds of stuff. He was very diverse in what he did every year. You know, he relied on Mother Nature for rain in new irrigation back there, right? So I remember talking with him after I come out to California, just touching him, see how he's doing? And I asked him, so what's your most reliable crop right now? How are you doing with it? How was how's the industry has environment, it's my most reliable crop right now is a cell tower, that I lease on the corner of my land, that is guaranteed income every year, every year that's guaranteed income. With that in mind, if I talk to a grower today and say, what's, what's the one thing they should really think about, think about where your opportunities are to actually, you know, save money, invest in the future, reduce your cost, and actually create those reliable sources of income and sustainability, right. So if you're looking at things like carbon sequestration in the vineyard, you're looking at cover crops you're looking at, you know, all of that kind of stuff. You're looking at, you know, a technology that is down the road, you're looking at stuff that's coming, and I would pause, take a breath and look at all of that, because there are huge opportunities there is some growers laughed at my uncle for putting up this tower. He's like, Yeah, but this is cash income every month. And I'm good to go with it. Yeah. So yes, I say continue looking at the technology and see how it applies to your bottom line. Because you will be surprised at how much and how big of an advantage it is for growers to actually look at this technology and make that investment.   Craig Macmillan  21:55  I'm from the Midwest, myself. I'm from Iowa, Soux Falls Iowa.   Michael Miiller  21:58  I lived in Waterloo as a kid.   Craig Macmillan  22:00  You're kidding me.   Michael Miiller  22:01  No, Waterloo!   Craig Macmillan  22:02  We need to edit this part out! Well, then you can well, then you really can relate to this. You know, I was involved in farming, I was a city kid. But we had, you know, members of our church, or folks that we knew who had farms and side of town, they had to make some big decisions. Sometimes, you know, depending on the price of corn, they may have to store it, I may put it in a silo. Or maybe I should look at another crop or another type of livestock or something like that. Since that time, we now have farms with tractors that are running on GPS that have intelligent sprayers all programed. And a family can farm quite a bit of ground with again, a lot of safety, but they weren't big investments. They were risks. That's that's what I hear from around other crops. It's like Nope, that was a big jump. But once we did, it made tons of sense, it worked out great. I do want to kind of underline your idea that we should definitely be looking and thinking and doing the math. And then especially as technology becomes more adopted.   Michael Miiller  23:00  Everybody's got to make the decision as a grower by grower or video by vineyard basis. But in speaking in general terms, I think growers would be surprised actually beneficial it is to them.   Craig Macmillan  23:10  Where can people find out more about you in these topics?   Michael Miiller  23:13  You go to our website www cwg.org orgy my email simple Michael at cwg.org Send me a text anytime email I'm easy to get a hold of. The contact information is on the website. And there's some information on there as well mentioned our FAQs etc website and it gets available for our growers and viewers who aren't caught growers should be known I could help you with that as well.   Craig Macmillan  23:39  Okay, sounds good. This today was Michael Miiller. He's Director of Government Relations, California Association of wine grape growers. Thanks for being here.   Michael Miiller  23:46  Thank you so much. Enjoy yoru day.   Craig Macmillan  24:22  Waterloo, Iowa   Michael Miiller  24:24  Yeah! yeah, go cyclones.   Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

When asked to define the 3 P's of Sustainability (People, Planet, Prosperity), Prosperity is often the one gives people pause. But it's such an important leg of the stool! Sustainable businesses develop long-term plans and strategies to ensure they can thrive now and into the future. Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values. Some of the ways businesses embody Prosperity are through: Creating and sticking to a budget. Keeping thorough records. Creating informed and effective marketing plans. A business can also extend their prosperity through collaborative efforts with like-minded groups. When this happens, both parties win. Organizations that partner over shared values benefit by: Pooling resources. Building relationships. Advancing awareness and support for their cause. For example, Cambria Estate Winery is a Business rooted in women's leadership. Their team partners with organizations that share their dedication to uplifting and empowering women in an incredibly impactful way. Cultivating Female Empowerment Cambria Estate Winery is rooted women's leadership. Their certified sustainable wines are even named after their proprietors – Barbara, Katherine, and Julia. Did you know that their dedication to recognizing the experiences and achievements of women goes even deeper? Uplifting and empowering women is core to their Business values, and they have a big way of showing it. Every March for Women's History Month, Cambria selects an organization that aligns with their pillars of climate action and women's leadership, and pledges $25k to support their efforts. Tamara Bingham, Cambria's Brand Manager, gets to make the phone call to let the organization know they were selected – a task she says is “probably the most rewarding part of my job.” In 2024, she notified the lead of American Farmland Trust's “Women for the Land” initiative to pledge their support. Right in line with Cambria's own sustainable practices, this initiative supports women farmers and landowners in preserving their land and embracing conservatism. Other past years' partnership organizations include Equity Now, Women's Earth Alliance, SeaTrees, and Amazon Frontlines. Through these partnerships, Cambria demonstrates their dedication to using the power of their platform to help uplift and empower women everywhere. Their Business practices are founded on their belief that a commitment to sustainability is also a commitment to amplifying the messages of the many deserving organizations working towards a better future. We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program. This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing yours today!       Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team. Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Apply for SIP Certified Wine Marketing Tips eNewsletter Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic What's your Sustainable Story? Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member

If irrigation efficiency is a goal of yours, a new predictive model may make scheduling easier in the future. José Manuel Mirás Avalos, Tenured Scientist at Misión Biológica de Galicia in the Spanish Nation Research Council (CSIC) (MBG-CSIC) in Santiago de Compostela (Spain) is working on a Decision Support System (DSS) prototype for irrigation and fertilization of winegrapes. This computer model accounts for multiple variables including weather, soil moisture, evapotranspiration, soil type, plant spacing, bud break, variety, and wine quality goals to help farmers make more informed irrigation decisions throughout the growing season. Resources:         191: CropManage: Improving the Precision of Water and Fertilizer Inputs 195: Hydrological Mapping: A Vital Component of Effective Water Conservation Plans 213: High Resolution Data from Space Helps Farmers Plan for Climate Change Decision Support System for Seasonal Irrigation and Nitrogen Fertilization Decision support system for selecting the rootstock, irrigation regime and nitrogen fertilization in winemaking vineyards: WANUGRAPE4.0 Effects of the Annual Nitrogen Fertilization Rate on Vine Performance and Grape Quality for Winemaking: Insights from a Meta-Analysis Fiabilidad de la monitorización del contenido de agua del suelo para determinar el estado hídrico de la vid. (“Reliability of monitoring soil water content to determine the water status of the vine”) -in Spanish José Manuel Mirás Avalos on ResearchGate: José Manuel Mirás Avalos On LinkedIn Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript Craig Macmillan  0:00  Our guest today is José Manuel Mirás Avalos. He is tenured scientists at the Misión Biológica de Galicia and the Center for Spanish Research Council. Thanks for being on the podcast.   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  0:10  Thank you very much for inviting me. It's a great pleasure for me.   Craig Macmillan  0:14  We were interested in talking to you because we saw that you've been working on a pretty interesting type of technology with it with a whole group of folks around the idea of decision support systems, particularly around irrigation, fertilization for grapes, possibly even root stock selection, when I read, first of all, for our audience, what exactly is a decision support system?   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  0:34  The idea behind that decision support system is to provide a within one package in this case is a computer platform in which we use different kinds of information coming from real data coming from models that that are implemented within this platform to provide the users the end users with information to make certain practices easier, or more rational. In the vineyard. In this case, we were centered in this particular case in irrigation and fertilization. And there was another it's not exactly a decision support system is more like decisions help decision making for the rootstock which is a independent from the, from the irrigation fertilization system.   Craig Macmillan  1:27  How does the grower use this kind of tool so I'm trying to make decisions about irrigating my vineyard and how did the tool play into it?   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  1:36  At the moment is just a prototype, the computer program or the DSS for being short? The DSS Decision Support System can give some information very easy to obtain such as the geographical coordinates the plant spacings location about the nearest weather station for instance, and that information and the algorithm which is inside this platform in the user will receive an information okay for this conditions over this growing season, you will have to use that much amount of irrigation to obtain given in this case, we use an indicator of grape vine water status the user can modulate within a wide array of values. So, you can decide okay, I want that, on average, my grapevines in this particular danger go between these and these values of of water potential. And then from this decision support system says okay, in that case, you must follow these instructions that is to get that much irrigation for obtaining full genes. Or you can use less irrigation in order to obtain a given quality parameter in that case was soluble sugars in the grapes.   Craig Macmillan  2:59  How's that algorithm developed? Your modeling is a predictive model, basically, you're saying. The vine is going to respond a certain way over time. How is how is that done?   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  3:10  We've capitalized on previous works from other research groups. And I said that that this work is not my work is I work for in collaboration with several research institutions in Spain with people that have a strong expertise, viticulture, in grapevine  physiology, we capitalize on that, on that knowledge in order to model soil water balance, and adapted to vineyards in this case by using a proxy of the grapevine architecture in order to model vegetative growth over the growing season. So with that, we modulate the evapotranspiration of the vineyard. And from that we calculate soil moisture, according to weather that and using data from experiments carried out here in Spain, with seven grapevine varieties located in different regions of the country, let's say correlate soil water content with a measure of grapevine water status in this case was a stem water potential, which is a measure which is considered here in Europe. Well, in the States, there are some kinds of schools that refer other other types of measuring grape vine water status but in this case here in Spain, A, we proved in a previous work that stem water potential is a modality of great buying water status indicator, which works best for irrigation purposes.   The work that you're basing this on the research that's been done, was it done specifically for developing this model? Are you able to take work that's been done for other purpose And then put it all together to get the algorithm that you want?   It was basically the second option that that you have mentioned, we have extensive experience working on irrigation in vineyard. So we have several, we participated in several experiments concerning different irrigation protocols within the vine. So we let's say capitalize those data from those experiments. And also perform it a couple of experiences during the course of the project, which led to the development of this decision support system.   Craig Macmillan  5:35  Obviously, there's a lot of variation placed to place region to region. And so how do you account for that?   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  5:41  This is a nice question, because it was the most difficult part.   Craig Macmillan  5:45  Yeah, I would imagine Yeah,   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  5:47  For developing this. For accounting this of course, we have weather records from different stations located in different regions of the country, which are close to the vineyards, we use for validating this this model. But we also took into account soil properties such as texture, organic matter, which also vary a lot from region to region, we added two different equations depending on if the soil is calcareous or nor calcareouse, because the hydraulic properties of the soil would be right in case of high calcium carbonate content. But these are the main the main aspects, but there is a parameter within the model that also arise depending on the on the variety, we can imagine this parameter as the threshold of soil water content, until which the given variety of grapevine begins to show signs of water stress. Unfortunately, we could not make a lot of measurements to obtain a wider range of of values for this parameter. According to the data that we have for five varieties, it was very similar, independently of the of the region in which the vineyard is located. So it's more dependent on the variety itself than on the on the location. These are the three main aspects that allow us for four plus eight capturing the variability within within the regions.   Craig Macmillan  7:20  If I was using such a tool, I would give my location that will tell me a lot about what region I'm in, it'll tell me some things. Then you mentioned we put in like the density, the spacing, because that's going to have to what to do with the total leaf area per hectare? Basically, variety, you'd put in varieties as well.   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  7:38  Yes, but for accounting for a variety, we also asked, they use it too, to provide their date of bud break. Because it's different depending on the region and also on the variety.   Craig Macmillan  7:51  Okay, so they'll tell me about the season, we're talking about, like season long recommendations. So at the beginning of the season, I would say okay, this is what I'm shooting for. And I would actually put in this is the the vine water status that I would like this is the lead potential I'd like to see. And then it'll say, okay, based on the historical weather, and based on all these other factors, we believe that applying this amount of water would really have that result eventually.   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  8:18  That is how it works right now planning to adopt it. But we need help from some company or some people who is expert on computer science, we are planning to develop a tool with the aid of some computer science guys or programmers that allow us to divide the growing season in, let's say, to flowering or flower into venison. Verasion to harvest for instance, on the other hand, using four stages, for instance, ranges of water potentials were tabulated more or less. And the objectives are for the wine producing end user, let's say we'll have the curve that is produced by the model, but in this case, divided into four stages and with the theoretical curve that we should have in order to produce a certain type of wine. So we will be able to say ahead or behind the limit. During this specific stage of the growing season. Suppose you have to apply more water or you should not apply water.   Craig Macmillan  9:35  There's a lot a lot of different ways of trying to achieve this. And that's why this one seems to be kind of a new approach. Even if you're in the development stage. It's still a very intriguing concept and how it might be how it might be applied. And tell me more about how do you actually fit these different pieces together because you got work in a vineyard in one region and work in another you got weather information. You found some way correlating these things with the outcome that you're interested in, which is the water potential.   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  10:04  It was kind of difficult but not not so much as as at a first glance, it would be within a soil water balance you have your result is the soil water content at any specific date. But in order to get to that, you need to know the soil water content, let's say the previous day, but you also have already rainfall, you calculate transpiration of the values, the evaporation from the soil is just putting those pieces together that make the thing work. It's It's not so difficult, it's kind of intriguing too, because all these these parts have their equations in the middle to get to them. But in the end is just fit a soil water balance model with with the data from the different, let's say inputs that you have.   Craig Macmillan  10:54  And essentially you as your career actually, I've looked at some of the other things you've done, you do find good fits, you can take multiple variables, this very complicated world. And when you kind of put it all together, you can start to get a picture, you can actually get some fixes to some other variable   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  11:15  Sometimes is easier than some others. So we tried also to model genes, that was very more, much more difficult. We got two nice results. But there was a lot of variation, depending on on climate and in also on the irrigation management. When we validated this other model for dealing with data from from Spain, if I remember correctly, there were poor regions within Spain. It worked well for some regions, but it didn't work for for some others, we didn't get to the solution to get a unique model for all the regions for for GLD. Also, because we combine a deal with dry matter partitioning within the plant.   Craig Macmillan  12:06  Oh, interesting.   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  12:07  Yes. And we did that in collaboration with with American professional.   Craig Macmillan  12:14  Who's that?   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  12:15  Alan Luxo from the from Cornell University.   Craig Macmillan  12:18  Oh, fantastic. Cool.   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  12:20  Yes, because at that moment in time, my supervisor have made it previously researcher stay in at Cornell University with this professor, he began with the with modeling. In that case, it was apple trees. And we adapted that model to vineyards.   Craig Macmillan  12:40  The cross crop work, it's fascinating because you know, grape vines are a very unusual, kind of unique plant cropping world. But they do have a lot in common with other, you know, Woody perennial crops, other orchard crops. And if we can take the research that's done across multiple areas and use it that's really exciting, increases the efficiency and increases the depth of what we can do, which I really, really like, how you validate this model, where you have people try it, and then you'll come out and you'll take measurements or have them take measurements.   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  13:14  For developing the model, we employ that it's a restricted set of that of data, in order to the few parameters that are inside the construction of the model. But we have met so many experiments within the consortium, that we were working on this decision support systems. So we have finally had a set of more than 100 scenarios to validate the model with data collected from the field. In some cases, we have both soil water content and stem water potential. In some others, we only have a stem water potential. So we tested the model against those data. In many cases it worked well. In a few instances, it didn't work well, because of we detected several particularities within the vineyards we use to test the modeling in a given region. For instance, if is you want me to give any an example a specific example, in a region in western Spain southwest, Southwest or Spain, we have vineyard that the field data said that during the summer, it was not as water stress, as the model is saying that it was a fact is a that was occurring is that the vineyard was very close to a river. So it is it is likely that the water table rose within those periods, or that the vine roots were able to reach that water table and the moel wasn't able to capture that. That feature.   Craig Macmillan  14:54  No, but I would imagine if I'm using a tool like that, and I know my sight like can take that kind of thing into account could say, why would a little bit of experience you can say I always know that this recommendation is a little bit higher than what I actually need. But by using that I can say, well, then I'm going to use this number stead. That's kind of the idea. Now, do you see this technology leading to increases in efficiency, reduced water use or just more efficient water use?   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  15:22  I like to seem that, that this is a step forward to auto efficient water use in vineyards. But maybe at this moment is, too let's say it's a scope is too broad. And we have to work on in order to be more specific, or I don't know the word in English.   Craig Macmillan  15:43  Particular.   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  15:44  The idea is that to be able from this from this, let's say decision to port that we have to build more detailed decision support system that allows allows end users to manage irrigation on a daily or we'll be on a weekly basis, but it's still some work to do.   Craig Macmillan  16:07  Yeah, exactly. I mean, this is this is early days, and this tool isn't isn't out yet. So we wanted to talk about the the concept, which is fascinating, which always reminds me of something I noticed when I was doing the research, you mentioned a consortium, when you look up these topics, you'll hit pages that have many, many different organizations listed at the bottom. And I believe you just moved around between a couple that are part of the same group or consortium is what it looks like, how does this work you've got you've got different agencies, you have different educational institutions, you have different departments have different parts of government that are collaborating, they're working together, they're coordinating what they do, is that how this works.   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  16:44  In his particular case, this project came from a network of collaboration, which was funded by the the Spanish government. And that involved, I don't remember how many but maybe 12 institutions that work on different aspects of viticulture, in order to increase the impact of their research that is really done. Because sometimes, I don't know if this happens in the States. But in Spain, we have the problem that many times we work isolated once from the others, and then our research doesn't reach the level of impact that the funding agencies desire. So in order to, to overcome this weakness, the main funding agency for research here in Spain, asks for creating networks of specific topics, between several research institutes, maybe research institutes, but also universities, and in some cases, private companies, but this later is less frequent.   Craig Macmillan  17:58  Interesting. Yeah, it's interesting there's there's more kind of a multi organizational collaboration here in the United States all the time, we've noticed for a particular topic, and some folks are working on this and some folks are kind of working on this and and coming back with things from different regions or different aspects, but they can all be brought into kind of a coordinated outcome for growers is very, very, very, very practical and very exciting. Is there one thing that you would say to a grower regarding this idea of decision support systems, especially around things like irrigation or fertilizers, or one piece of advice or something that they should be excited about or one reason why they might want to consider using such a tool when it becomes available.   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  18:39  Nowadays, the number of decision support system is increasing. There are many companies which are developing tools or recycling other tools coming from other let's say, organizations must be aware that the decision support system generally, which is those that I know that are available on the market are general not specific for a given crop. In order to obtain the best results is is better to have a specific decision support system. So that's for one for the one part. And the second part is that in the end, these are tools to help making decisions, but one cannot disregard the experience of the grower. Of course, in the end these these kind of decision support systems might must be used as a tool. If you allow me to give a recent experience that I have working with a private company, not in the case of vineyards, it was developing a general platform for aiding in irrigation decisions. The final aim that they have is to automate the process of irrigation this can be a little bit dangerous, because if you if you let a model perform the whole process of ollecting that data, make a decision and then execute that decision in the whole process, they can be accumulation of errors that may give a final response, which is not the desired one.   Craig Macmillan  20:15  What you're getting out and you've touched on and what makes sense is it's a decision support. It's not decision, it's not making a decision for you. It's saying, This is what the model says. And you say, Yeah, okay, I hadn't thought of that, or, okay, that works. Or, okay, let's try that. It's not just executing it. I mean, you know, I can imagine I can imagine a world where you would have a decision system that would take all this into account, and then it would open the irrigation valves automatically. And that may not be where we really want to be headed. The human is always going to be the arbiter, that the human is going to be the decision maker, this is about providing the best information to help make a good decision. That's it. And I think that that's really, really crucial, because I am familiar with another variety of other systems. So we look at all this information. And the readings might say, Okay, this is the direction to go, or this is this is what you should do or that, but the grower will say, That's fine for this variety on this root stock on this soil. Absolutely. That works. For me, that makes sense. But we know for a fact that this variety on this root stock on this soil is not going to work because of the experience with all the details. And I've had some very interesting conversations with folks where I'm looking at the database stuff and saying, Hey, these vines look fine, there's plenty of water, the water potential looks great. There's water in the soil, everything seems to be fine. And the grower says, Well, we're going to irrigate. And I'm like, that seems surprising to me. And they say, Well, under this condition, this variety will collapse out of nowhere, when it hits a certain threshold, and I want to make sure we don't get anywhere near that threshold. So that that information was useful for making decisions in one scenario, they make a slightly different decision in another scenario, and literally those two spots are across the road from each other. A lot of similarities between the two but the grower has that has that experience to say yeah, but under certain conditions, this is what's going to happen. And so again, it's about having the best information to make the best choice, but the human is the one that's going to make the call the human is never gonna go away. And I would be really fascinated once you have once this stuff becomes available. I would love to see some research on how people use it, how people use the technology. Where can people find out more about you?   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  22:37  I have profiling on research gate which is a social network for researchers there you can find my All my publications in a no the top is a working over my ground and also on LinkedIn.   Craig Macmillan  22:52  Fantastic. Yep, I found you very easily and you have a lot on there and a whole variety of other topics that we will have don't have time to get to today, but it's really cool work. So our guest today has been José Manuel Mirás Avalos. He is a scientist at Misión Biológica de Galicia in the Spanish Nation Research Council. Spain with the center Spanish Research Council was the one well, thanks for being here. This is really interesting stuff.   José Manuel Mirás Avalos  23:13  Thank you very much, Craig. It was a pleasure for me to talk to you   Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

Beyond doing good by the environment and your community, your sustainably certified wine grapes differentiate your brand in today's oversaturated wine market. But do you know how much of a value-driver your certification really is? Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values. In this Marketing Tip, get insight into the significance of sustainably grown grapes in the larger market from Gregg Hibbits, who has nearly 30 years of experience selling wine grapes. Over this course of his career, he has experienced a shift in what his grape-buying clients are looking for. Keep reading for highlights from his interview on Episode #83 of the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Buyers with Different Interests Each client, Hibbits says, has different interests. Many winemakers have deep and long-standing interests in sustainability because they believe in its mission: creating high-quality products through protecting, conserving, and regenerating resources so people of today and the future can prosper. They seek out certified sustainable grapes that align with their values. Other buyers believe that sustainability is the direction the industry is going. They feel a push from the market and the trade to produce wine from sustainably farmed grapes, so it is part of their purchasing criteria when they source fruit. Furthermore, sustainability is a value-driver for investors. Businesses want to report back to their investors that the product they are supporting is both of high-quality and reaches exceptional levels in environmental and social health. But he notes a change in his clients over his career. Higher Demands, Higher Premiums Hibbits tells Sustainable Winegrowing, “There's absolutely no question that people are more demanding on every front now.” Buyers are demanding sustainability. Now, the topic comes up early in conversations with buyers – something, Hibbits says, was not the case 15 years ago. But he has been able to fulfill those demands, and has been rewarded in the form of premiums. “Sometimes it's as simple as being able to sell your grapes when nobody else can – that's a premium. And then sometimes when the market is in a different place, the premium is a true premium: I can get $200 - $300 a ton more for my sustainably certified or organic grapes.” And this is something we hear from SIP Certified growers time and time again: John Niven, Cadre Wines “Buyers are looking for wines that have responsible farming practices, are aware of environmental issues, and, of course, are of high quality. The SIP Certified program has added value to our wines allowing us to demonstrate our ability to fulfill all of the desired criteria that buyers look for.” Austin Hope, Hope Family Wines “More and more, we're being asked about our sustainability efforts in the vineyard and winery. Being SIP Certified is an easy way for us to quantify our practices and tell the consumer and trade about how we run our operation in a way that's better for the land, the wine and the community”. Adam LaZarre, Broadside Wine “For us, having our wines SIP Certified is easily the best way to let our entire audience know we are sincere about doing the right thing for the health of our vineyards, customers, and employees... I know for a fact that this is a HUGE selling point for our wines.” If your Grapes are SIP Certified… … it's easier now than ever to put the SIP Certified logo on your wine bottles. Thanks to the latest SIP Certified database feature, you can create a wine application in just a few minutes. Say goodbye to the days of documents and information getting lost in months-old email threads, and instead, upload everything straight to your application. Learn how to Apply for SIP Certified Wine today!   We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program. This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing your Sustainable Story today!     Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team. Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Apply for SIP Certified Wine Marketing Tips eNewsletter Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic What's your Sustainable Story? Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member

While the tradition of wine is still important to how we connect with customers, the way that we communicate has changed. David Avrin, President of The Customer Experience Advantage explains why brands must have an omnichannel approach to their customer communication. Identify which channels are most valuable to your business by defining your core audience. Then find out what they watch, what they read, and where they recreate. Use these insights to harness the technology that your customers use whether its snail mail or TikTok. David reminds us that there is no shame in not being comfortable with technology but there is no excuse to not work with a technology native who does understand the platforms that best reach your audience. Resources:         82: Getting to Know Your Wine Customer 85: It‘s Time for New Wine Sales Strategies 98: Selling Wine in Non-Traditional Channels 161: Use Storytelling to Sell More Wine David Avrin Website David Avrin Books David Avrin LinkedIn David Avrin YouTube Social Media: Facebook | Instagram Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript Craig Macmillan  0:00  Our guest today is David Avrin. He is president of the customer experience advantage. Today we're going to talk about a little bit about the business side, and how that applies sustainability in the wine industry. Thanks for being on the podcast.   David Arvin  0:14  Thank you very much for having me.   Craig Macmillan  0:16  Now, we've talked about wineries vineyards, but their businesses. In your mind, what are some of the important things that winery and vineyard owners might think about in terms of making their companies sustainable into the future?   David Arvin  0:29  Yeah, it's interesting, because I think the industry certainly has been around for a very long time. And when it goes back to Biblical times, and there's there's certain ways that vineyard owners, those who are in the business suppliers, and others, this is how we do business, this is how it's done. But what's interesting is for the rest of us, who are the wine consumers, our lives have changed. And it's actually for everybody, right? How we connect, and share and grow our own businesses, and our changing expectations for access and immediacy, and flexibility, all of that has changed. So I think part of future proofing your business is striking that balance between the traditions, that, that go into making a great vintage wine, and how we interact and how we engage as consumers in the b2b side with distributors and others as well. So many of those mechanisms have changed. So I think what's really important is for people to be very clear on the technologies that are expected, and the ones that facilitate great communication in great relationships. I saw a study the other day, and the gist of it said that, that companies today are expected to deploy technology that allows their customers to do business with them, not from home, from anywhere, at any time, I don't expect that I can get my hair cut at four o'clock in the morning, but I expect that I can make an appointment to do so or cancel that appointment. So I think it's a very unique industry, because the traditions and what is tried and true and effective are so important to maintain, so important to pass along from generation to generation, but how we connect and communicate and deliver those services, those products, all of that has changed. We need to stay on the front end of that.   Craig Macmillan  2:09  One of the attractions of wine, I think, in my experience with customers, is this traditional aspect this is this is something mystical about it. And how do we maintain that kind of magical quality to a product, when we need to engage with the customer in more electronic ways or more distant ways, and maybe without as much touch?   David Arvin  2:31  I think it's just the business part of it, that it requires that kind of an expeditious, ease of use kind of a methodology are really virtual wine tastings unless you're actually tasting wine in different locations and connecting electronically.   Craig Macmillan  2:46  And that's happened.   David Arvin  2:47  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We did it during COVID. We had so many double dates with my wife and some other couples and stuff, and just opportunity just over a glass of wine and some dinner, to just hang out with each other. It's one of things we learned during the pandemic that was possible. But I think when I've talked about the technology, I think it really is purely just how do we do business, my, my mantra, my new book is all about how to be how to become ridiculously easy to do business with. And so I think fortunately for the industry, I think the traditions still hold true. I think in person, wine tastings and wine enjoys and pairings at restaurants, I think a lot of that will pretty much stay the same. I think it's we're always want to stay on the forefront of that. But it's the the communication, the distribution, the marketing. There are so many new amazing mechanisms now to reach our target market, which is shifting, of course, we can talk about that. But it's using the mechanisms that they use. And so we can be traditional, but we certainly don't want to be seen as stodgy or antiquated, or old school. And so I think there's there's a really wonderful balance that in the terminus is fully intentional, because there's so much that balance comes into this industry. But I think in terms of our communication and our marketing and our in person enjoyment. I think that part's all very important.   Craig Macmillan  4:07  He mentioned the generational change. And that's an issue for the wine business, the generation that really brought us to where we are today, their children, and then possibly their grandchildren are coming of age, they're coming of age. And the question is whether that love of the wine product has been passed on generationally or not. One thing that I learned from looking at some of your other talks and stuff was, it's about and you mentioned it was the ease of connection and the ease of doing business and convenience.   David Arvin  4:40  I think on the business side is that I think there's a great opportunity for the industry to become not just present and relevant but preferable to a new generation as well. It's not like there isn't a long history with wine. As I said, going back to Biblical times. They have survived so well over the years. But what's different is each generation How we communicate, and how we connect and reach out, all of that has changed. I think wine is uniquely positioned to capitalize on that new as long as these generations come to fruition that Gen X, the Gen Y, the Gen Z, and all of them as well, because I think there's a natural progression of maturity in the individual. It's like there's a space, I think, between the parties. And I remember when party was a noun, now it is a verb. And then of course, the the more traditional and stodgy. I think wine is uniquely placed in there. And so while the young people are, they're going to play drinking games at 18, to 23, 24, you know, playing quarters with beer, the opportunity when when it's time to grow up, we grab a glass of wine, and we connect together. So you might have party and the stodgy I think the middle is social. And I think wine has a phenomenal opportunity right now to be positioned as the social drinker, we're not drinking to get drunk. We're not drinking to be to be sophisticated in in our smoking jackets with a high ball and of whiskey. But I think wine lends itself phenomenally to visuals, as well. And so I think if you're going to compare it to industries that have survived and thrived in that transition, I think coffee is probably the best. I mean, we grew up our parents, you go down, look for 15 cents, get a cup of joe. Well, now everybody's enjoying coffee, it's become more profitable, it's become more prevalent, because they've looked at a couple of things. One is the social aspect. And Starbucks had a big role to play in how we look at that experiential thing. But it's also a grab and go kind of an item, being able to recognize how easy do we do that and take that to the office. And that industry has done it very well. No, wine, of course, is something different. We don't necessarily take to the office, but the visuals of people who have come of age socializing, and not just drunk at a frat party, I think there's wonderful opportunities in terms of our marketing to say, when you're when you finally grown up, this is how we connect, this is how we socialize. And the other part of it, I think, is the packaging. And this part has been really fun for us because we are of the mind of so many, that when we get invited to a gathering, we always come with a bottle of wine. What's interesting is talking to others that one of the primary drivers. And this really takes us back to like 50 60, 70s was the emergence of clever and attractive packaging. It's less important today in other industries. But I think it's more important in the wine industry. The clever names, the clever packaging, so many people I've talked to say, I just thought this bottle looks so cool. And that's the one that they bring, right. That's not the bottle we tend to open up we like to display because there's so much creativity in that the elegant yesteryear of wine was a very elegant, labelled today. They're whimsical, they're fanciful, they're, they're tongue in cheek, and everything from the 99 crimes that you can scan and get a little story about them to Menage a Trios, which, which, you know, gives people a little bit of a smile when you realize the the inference, I think is such an exciting industry right now. I think the biggest population bubble in history is coming of age, and the perfect target. And then we look at the social how they communicate as well. Whether it's Instagram, or tick tock, for others, as well short form social short form video, it lends itself so well, two people connecting and gathering and enjoying life and sharing a bottle of wine.   Craig Macmillan  8:23  I'm a dinosaur, I just turned 55. And I work sometimes in the tasting room, the winery where I work now Niner Wine Estates, as time went on, it became very clear that I was not able to communicate with my coworkers, because they were talking about Instagram, they were using Twitter, they were Venmoing everything like I couldn't even be involved in social gatherings without getting Venmo on my phone. It's a here's 20 bucks and like, I don't want that. No, I wanted my Venmo account. Yeah, so one of them actually offered to become my social media consultant. And that is still continued to this day. So how can we make it easy for the consumer to interact with winery, if the consumer is not either tech savvy or in my case doesn't want to be tech savvy.   David Arvin  9:11  The term that you're going to hear so often which is which is omni channel. And omni channel means no matter how they want to communicate with you give them that opportunity. I mean, you talk about Venmo, for example, and I speak to audiences around the world, I write books on all of this. And one of the things I talk about in the new book that I'm writing right now, which is called ridiculously easy to do business with one of the chapters is be ridiculously easy to pay, you know, somebody wants to pay you through Venmo Okay, and this is scary for people with very traditional businesses. And I'm like, oh my god, somebody's trying to give you money, say yes. As you had recognized sometimes it takes a younger person who is a technology native who is immersed in all of this to help you translate and help you implement. There is no shame in not being comfortable with some of the new social media platforms or mechanisms. There is no excuse to not work with somebody who is and just because it might be a little bit scary. And for I mean, if you're old, I'm ancient, my kids run circles around me are all of our kids where we've got a Brady Bunch, they're all sort of 20 to 29. And I've got two of them who do digital marketing and digital media for a living. I wrote books if you can, if you're watching the video behind me, I wrote books, and I couldn't keep up today. But what we do is we surround ourselves, we outsource we, we hand off to people who are comfortable with those mechanisms. So when I talked before up omni channel, we're all going to have people, we're going to have customers from 21 to 85 or above, they want to communicate with you differently, they want to access the product differently, some might be able to do sort of online video introductions, a tour of the winery, some things that look very experiential, and some are very, very comfortable using the app and doing things online ordering. And there's another segment that needs to talk to a person for for those in business, those who are listening to this podcast, you don't have to be all things to all people. But you have to be very clear of who your audience is, and who your future audience is. And make sure that you have the processes in place for them to reach you by phone, by text message. However, that might be an even if it's just the b2b aspect of your business and dealing with vendors and others as well. No matter how they want to communicate, try and make that available. We look at the lifetime value of our customers, both on the consumer side and also on the distribution side. being ridiculously easy to do business with is a competitive advantage today. And all of this is with a recognition that you have to be good at what you do, right? This isn't in lieu of a quality product, don't take your eye off the ball. But what's different today, what's different post pandemic is that our mechanisms for how do we communicate or pay or order or reorder have got to be simple and streamlined. And then when we look at the audience is how do they where are they getting their information if you want to really target those, those 21 to 30 year olds posting clever, engaging intent and enticing videos on Tik Tok or Instagram, it's not fluff, it's business. If that's where they get their information, you need to be there. You need to be there effective.   Craig Macmillan  12:11  And that raises another question. I think it's tough for a lot of businesses just in general, how do you keep up on all this stuff? As there's new applications? There's new channels, there's new preferences, that's another one Pay Pal was the thing. So yeah, Pay Pal? I'm cool PayPal Venmo I'd never heard of it until somebody demanded that as a payment. If I'm the general manager of a business or if I'm an executive, how do I stay on top of this?   David Arvin  12:34  Um, first of all, is the recognition you don't have to do everything. Because it is overwhelming. It's 100%. You don't have to be on every social media platform. You don't have to take every form of payment. You don't have to take Bitcoin, I would advise against it. But it doesn't absolve you of the responsibility to be a student of business be a lifelong learner of business. And there's no shortage of content available online. That tells you here the the the hottest trends, how do millennials or Gen Z prefer to communicate what is their greatest influence into what they buy? When and why just read I mean, there's videos on on online every day, part of my responsibility to my clients and my audiences that I serve is I need to be very, very current. There was somebody who had booked me to to keynote a conference and that's my my primary business as a keynote speaker. And it was six months away. And they asked if I would send they were finalizing things if I would send my slide deck. And I said, I'm happy to send my slide deck but understand it's not what I'm going to present to you in six months, because things will change between now and that whether you have a second generation who's moving up within your business, make sure that you have people of all ages in the room as you discuss strategy. I think to answer your question, just be a student of this there is no shortage go on YouTube is the second biggest search engine in the world only second to Google, and it's owned by Google. But YouTube is a wonderful way to have just looking at stories and news clips and others about what are the latest trends. How are they predominantly buying? Where does Gen Z get most of their information? Right? I saw some of the day was fascinating that Disney was suffering in a significant way just because the youngest of our people are getting most of their videos and content online now on YouTube and others and it's in lieu of that it's not like they did anything wrong. Bed Bath and Beyond goes bankrupt not because they did a bad job. It's that we had changed and how we buy and how we connect we just get it delivered to our house through Amazon or something else. So I for me, I think it's it's a it's an exciting thing. It's a positive thing to be a constant learner, stay up to date and relieve yourself of the pressure to do everything. Just look who is my core audience? What do they watch? What do they read? Where do they recreate and congregate and dine and connect and are we there? And are we there in a way that is is not just present and not overly salesy. Persuasive and social and big the big rule in social media is don't sell share.   Craig Macmillan  15:04  I was reading something this morning, which reminded me of a topic that we had talked about internally in our winery. And that is the the idea of story. You just mentioned that storytelling. We also know that attention spans are short. And we know that a lot of us technology is set up for no more than a minute, two minutes, three minutes, how do I tell a really compelling story in a short amount of time? there's   David Arvin  15:28  Well,  two ways to do it. One is a story, a traditional story. And that might be through an article, it might be through a longer form video, it tells us a situation or something about a Thanksgiving dinner, and something that emotional happens. And you see that on the table. Most of story today, in terms of short form, video format, is literally very short. It can be a 22nd, Instagram reel, with pictures and pictures and pictures and lots of lots of music. I think the best example, if you think and look at how pharmaceutical companies are doing their commercials today, for Jardiance, or whatever those might be, whether it's a musical number, how often you see seniors at a farmers market, or at a kid's birthday party, but they're showing them connecting, and being being social, and family. And they just put these scenarios, you don't really know what the whole story is. But it puts it within the context as opposed to somebody holding up the product. And talking about the product. It's what do we want people to feel and I think that's the greatest opportunity for wine today, when looking at Gen Y millennials, or Gen Z is is is showing them in the in the kinds of situations that makes sense. It's laughter It's friendship, it's it's connecting, but it's also post fraternity party, it's post red solo cup, I could see a great ad campaign when you're ready to graduate from the red solo cup to a nice glass of Chardonnay, right? But that doesn't mean that somebody's 60 years old, it can be young and sophisticated. And the romance and all of that I think the stories can be told in short form, through the visuals, you know, and the music and all the things that and once again, here's here's a great thing about about YouTube, you can go on YouTube and search, how do you use YouTube? And you'll see a million videos, how do you create Instagram reels that capture the attention or look for others within your industry don't copy but emulate you know, which are the ones that get engagement and why I think it's an exciting thing to become a student of this. And I've learned so much from my kids who are no longer kids. My oldest daughter works for the number one social media channel on the planet. And they post videos and they get between 40 and 50 million views on their videos in the first 24 hours. Wow. And so what I'm learning from them is astonishing. And did I mention I wrote books on this?   Craig Macmillan  15:29  You said you've got one out right now what is that?   David Arvin  17:22  Yeah, well, but my new subject, and it's not really new. But I realized about seven or eight years ago because I talked about marketing and branding for most of my career, what are the what are the words we use that best describe and differentiate what we do in the marketplace. And I came to the recognition probably seven or eight years ago that we had changed in such a substantial way because of social proof that what we say about ourselves, is not unimportant, but it's not nearly important, today's what other people say about us. And it's Yelp and TripAdvisor and rotten tomatoes, and Glassdoor and of course all of the your own social media sites. So I might that's what led to my research would lead to my book, why customers leave and how to win them back is one of the points of frustration, friction in the process, unnecessary delays and, and lack of convenience for certain things. My whole business changed. And so all of my work and my research and my speaking and my books are around the central theme that in a marketplace where everybody's good. The winners are the ones who are ridiculously easy to do business with.   Craig Macmillan  18:56  I think you just answered the question, but what is the one thing you'd recommend?   David Arvin  19:00  There's two aspects Well, once the business aspect, and the other one is the marketing. So I think in terms of internal process, you have to be able to replicate what we're seeing in a broader marketplace. You have to be able to reach somebody, if somebody's yelling into the phone agent, real person real person, you're doing something wrong, right doesn't mean we can staff 24 hours but we're learning we can learn from Uber and Amazon and Domino's and others as well in terms of how do they use the mobile technology to make it super easy to reach someone to ask a question to reorder, make sure you have an off ramp so they can talk to a real person. That's the ridiculously easy walk your customers journey. Are there too many steps? How long is your contracts, we're seeing companies reducing their contracts and things that are really relevant and important. Be easy to work with your distributors and your vendors and others as well. And then of course on the marketing side is just recognize who not only your buyers are today, but your future buyers. Beware they are speaking language that's persuasive, authentic for them as well. And I think this this is one in industry and I speak to industries that are really struggling. I think the sky's the limit for the wine industry.   Craig Macmillan  20:05  So where can people find out more about you?   David Arvin  20:08  You find me online. My name is David Averin AVRIN, I'm on all social media on some of them. It's the real David AVRIN. That's a whole cat fish for another day. But you can look me up at Davidavrin.com or just google music videos as well. And as we had said, Before I speak and I consult. I love talking business. I'm a fan of business and I'm very optimistic about where we are post pandemic.   Craig Macmillan  20:32  Fantastic. Hey, we gotta go. Thanks for being on the podcast. David. Our guest today was David Avrin, president of the customer experience advantage   Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

Every wine enthusiast has different preferences, behaviors, and levels of investment in their pursuit of great wine. A few years ago, Wine Intelligence identified six distinct consumer segments in the US market and we wondered “how can we tailor a message of sustainability to align with these differences?” Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values. In this Throwback Thursday Marketing Tip, we're revisiting the six wine consumer segments and giving you tips on how to most effectively share your sustainable story with each one.   1. Engaged Explorers Who are they: Young, adventurist, frequent wine drinkers who love to try wines from different regions and producers. Talk SIP: Tell them how you improve your soil quality and how the health of your land influences the characteristics of your wine. They'll love learning how nature impacts a high-quality wine.   2. Premium Brand Suburban Who are they: Mid- to older-aged enthusiasts who know a lot about wine. They may not be big spenders, but they can be die-hard loyalists. Talk SIP: Get technical! Talk about how fruit quality is measured (Brix, pH, and TA). They'll love the insight and attention to detail.   3. Contended Treaters Who are they: Mid- to older-aged drinkers who don't drink often, but when they do, they are willing to spend more. They are knowledgeable and involved, and look for an engaging story to relay to their social circles. Talk SIP: Give them fun sustainable tidbits to share with their friends, like a specific sustainable practice from your sustainable story worksheet. Worksheet for Print | Worksheet for Electronic Filling   4. Social Newbies Who are they: Young, new to wine, and rely heavily upon recommendations and valued information. Talk SIP: Stick to the 3 P's of sustainability: People, Planet, Prosperity. They'll love this 360° approach and be able to pass it along with confidence.   5. Senior Bargain Hunters Who are they: The largest segment of wine drinkers in USA. They have strong wine knowledge and tend to select from a narrow range of styles and brands to meet their expectations on value. Talk SIP: Talk value-driven sustainable initiatives like monitoring utility usage and recycling programs.   6. Kitchen Casuals Who are they: Very infrequent wine drinkers who stay close to what they know. Talk SIP: Stick to the basics of what sustainability is and how drinking sustainable wine is a win for the people and the planet. We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program. This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing your Sustainable Story today!     Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team. Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Marketing Tips eNewsletter ReSIProcal February Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic What's your Sustainable Story? Whitney Brownie | Get YOUR Sustainable Story Featured Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Intelligent or sensor-controlled sprayers have the potential to improve pesticides application efficiency, reduce labor, and lessen waste. Brent Warneke, Senior Faculty Research Assistant in the Department of Horticulture at Oregon State University is testing LiDAR sensors that can sense a plant and adjust the amount of spray based on the coverage area needed. Brent also addresses the best time to use biologicals based on disease pressure, the benefits of drones in farming, and simple ways to improve spray efficiency with an air blast sprayer. Resources:         REGISTER: April 12, 2024 | Tailgate | Fungicide Spraying: Reduce Your Carbon Footprint & Financial Burden 2: The Goldilocks Principle & Powdery Mildew Management 79: Grapevine Fungal Diseases 117: Grapevine Mildew Control with UV Light Airblast 101 Brent Warneke Google Scholar Brent Warneke LinkedIn How to Do Regular Maintenance on Air Blast Sprayers to Ensure Proper Care for Specialty Crops Oregon State Fruit and Ornamental Disease Management Testing Program Oregon State University Nackley Lab Pesticide Redistribution and Its Implications on Pesticide Efficacy Sensor Sprayers for Specialty Crop Production Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript Craig Macmillan  0:00  Our guest today is Brent Warneke. He is senior faculty research assistant in the Department of Horticulture at Oregon State University. And today we're going to talk about some really cool stuff and agricultural technology. Thanks for being on the podcast, Brent.   Brent Warneke  0:11  Hey, thanks for having me.   Craig Macmillan  0:12  I saw you speak at the 2023 Sustainable Ag Expo in San Luis Obispo. And I was very inspired by your talk, I thought things that you were doing were really interesting. And I thought your message is really, really great, what kinds of things you've been working on.   Brent Warneke  0:25  I've been in this position at Oregon State University for the last five years. And we really started with investigating this sprayer, which we'll get into called the intelligent sprayer, and how it has potential to increase efficiency in terms of pesticide applications, from everything from labor to spray volume to pesticide quantity, and waste. And that's something that we've covered and in a lot of different ways that we'll go into here.   Craig Macmillan  0:55  And so, you know, obviously, this is a viticulture oriented show, but you've done this in other crops as well.   Brent Warneke  1:01  Yes. So I work with specialty crops in general, the kind of main categories that I focus on are wine, grapes, blueberries and nursery crops.   Craig Macmillan  1:11  Cool. What is an intelligent sprayer? Let's start there. What is it? What's it composed of? How does it work? What are the benefits?   Brent Warneke  1:19  Yeah, so the intelligent sprayer is one of a group of sprayers that I termed sensor controlled sprayers. These are sprayers that have sensors mounted on the sprayer, and they're able to sense objects in our in our case plants, and adjust the amount of spray they're applying based on those, what they're seeing. And the intelligent sprayer is is a kind of more advanced sprayer that uses a LIDAR sensor, which is a laser sensor, that's able to scan the plant canopy with millimeter resolution, and adjust is it spray very finely based on the canopy density that it detects.   Craig Macmillan  1:59  Tell me more about the sensing aspect of it. So LiDAR, if I remember correctly, it's the same concept as radar. Only light is the key, the laser, the laser goes out and bounces back. Is that right?   Brent Warneke  2:12  Yep, so a lot of these sensors use what's called time of flight. So they'll emit a beam of light. So in the case of a LiDAR sensor, it's a laser beam. And then it detects the amount of time it takes for that beam to hit off of the object and come back to the sensor. And what's cool about this LiDAR sensor is it scans a 270 degree field of view, it's able to scan basically almost through, you know, fully around the sensor itself. And out up to about 100 feet is the maximum that it can see. But you're able to set the various widths and areas that you want the sensor to focus on, for doing your precision spraying.   Craig Macmillan  2:55  Is that 270 degrees? Is that vertical or horizontal? I mean, is it scanning up to capture canopy? Or is it going side to side to make a map, how's it work?   Brent Warneke  3:02  if 270 degrees would be kind of three quarters of a circle, and the blind spot of the sensor would be kind of pointed at the ground. So if you can picture an arc going kind of from each side of the sprayer up and around, so it can see vertically above and also horizontally out up to about 100 feet from the sensor.   Craig Macmillan  3:25  It's reading a plane?   Brent Warneke  3:26  Yes it is.   Craig Macmillan  3:27  And then it's telling the computer, there's something there, there's something not there. And then the computer adjusts how much spray or is not coming out of the nozzle then?   Brent Warneke  3:35  Correct. So this sensor itself is a two dimensional sensor. So it scans that plane, That's 270 degrees field of view. But then as the sprayer moves through the field, it kind of creates that, that third dimension, and it's able to construct 3d representations of the canopy. And then that's what it uses to adjust the spray volume in real time.   Craig Macmillan  3:59  How is that controlled, there must be some valves and involved in the third thing.   Brent Warneke  4:03  Yeah, kind of where the the eyes meet the the actual controllers of the system are individual solenoid valves at each nozzle. And you can actually set the field of view or the area that each of those nozzles will focus on. You can actually tell each nozzles to only focus on a certain width of the canopy that has some a lot of different capabilities even besides what I just mentioned, there's other settings that you can use to make sure that you're kind of only targeting what you want to target.   Craig Macmillan  4:38  Oh, okay, so does that mean that as I go along, it'll say okay, there's something above but there's nothing below so I'm gonna open the valves above not open the valves below. Or the opposite say, hey, there's less above than there is below. I'm gonna change my rate based on that so it can do it both directions and everything as you're going along.   Brent Warneke  4:55  Yeah, exactly. A common thing is there's weeds that are below or the vines and we don't want to spray those, they're not relevant to us. So we can tell the sprayer to not regard anything that's 18 inches and below, or you can tell it to only focus on, you know, the actual grape canopy itself. So there's different settings and within the system itself, you can make different configurations for different crops or different size canopies, depending on what you're working with.   Craig Macmillan  5:26  So something I was thinking about, as I was preparing for this interview, we've I've done a number of interviews recently around things like hyperspectral, imaging, and also just regular light. So this is a little bit different, because those things are based on color, or based on certain reflectances. This is just based on the physical presence of a leaf or shoot or branch or something like that. So it doesn't matter what color it is?   Brent Warneke  5:49  It does not so this technology actually does not sense any colors. I mean, there is potential for that. But it just says his presence or absence. So it sprays you know, if there's a post there, or something in the canopy that's not green material, it'll spray that because it'll it'll detect that it's there   Craig Macmillan  6:07  wouldn't be advantages to using this kind of technology?   Brent Warneke  6:11  The advantages of these sensor controlled sprayers kind of form a cascade. So because you're using the sensors to detect canopy they apply usually lower volume than a standard air blast sprayer. And an air blast sprayer is kind of the the general comparison we always use. That's the most widely used sprayer type. What's the work? Yes, it's been the classic workhorse for, you know, 80 years. Yeah, for a long time. Yep, yeah, implementing these sensors, you start saving volume, and then that leads to fewer fill ups of the sprayer, which then leads to less labor, because you're in the field for less time, and then also less diesel, then you're also releasing less pesticide into the environment, and using less pesticides. So there's less pesticide waste as well. So there's kind of a suite of benefits that come with using these more precise sprayers.   Craig Macmillan  7:09  And that was the next thing I wanted to talk about. So in my experience, when you're working with fungicides, in particular, it's all about coverage, coverage, coverage, right? It's all about coverage. When I use a lower volume, I am perhaps reducing the coverage that I'm gonna get. That's always been kind of the mindset, for me, at least, you know, my understanding, how does this technology overcome that issue? I mean, are we getting good coverage with this kind of technology, and then I want to talk more about the reduction in pesticide as a result.   Brent Warneke  7:38  So that's actually a great segue, I can talk about some of the work we've done using both micronized sulfur and and also biological fungicides. So we first got this system back in 2018. And we took it as an out of the box sprayer, we're gonna see what it can do. That was our approach. And we chose micronized sulfur as our product to really investigate it with because it's a contact fungicide that you need really good coverage with in order to get good disease control on powdery mildew, which is the disease we mostly focus on. So yeah, we took it with it's out of the box sprayer settings, and micronized sulfur, and out in the field, it didn't perform as well as we were hoping it would, with a standard five pounds per 100 gallons sulfur mix rate, we took that and we decided to make some adjustments to how we use the sprayer. So we kind of tested two different things, we upped the concentration of sulfur in the tank, and then we also increased what's called the spray rate in the sprayer, which is where the sprayer will apply more spray per unit canopy. So per canopy density unit than the original lower setting. And we were able to get control that was controlled powdery mildew that was comparable to our standard airblast sprayer. So those were two adjustments that we were able to make to get to get good control. And along with that we've done coverage studies as well. And volume is related to coverage amounts. So with higher volume, you will get better coverage, you can get to the point of oversaturation, then you're not really providing any benefit. That's more of a waste situation, you may you know, you probably will still be getting good good disease control, but then you're also probably wasting materials. Well, we found that with adjusting the various settings we could get also get comparable coverage to a standard sprayer.   Craig Macmillan  9:39  How hard is it to calibrate this kind of technology?   Brent Warneke  9:42  You know, these these technologies these sensors sprayers I mean they're they're just sprayers like any other air blast sprayer. I like to work backwards when I'm thinking about calibration. So that really is how well is it actually covering the leaves. Using water sensitive papers is a great way to About this, you can get them from many agricultural suppliers, and just bring them out into the field. And it takes, you know, it'll take a half day or you know, it'll take a little bit of time to really dive into adjusting your sprayer. But using those cards, adjusting the air volume, adjusting the spray volume to match the canopy really has lots of benefits, in terms of streamlining spray efficiency.   Craig Macmillan  10:27  You talked about increasing the concentration in this particular study we started with said five pounds per 100 gallon, I think, was the ultimate outcome in terms of what the concentration was.   Brent Warneke  10:37  We jumped up to 20 pounds for 100 gallons, so four times the amount. Oh, wow, that's not to say that a lower concentration wouldn't still have efficacy. But we just jumped up there just to see how well that higher volume would work. And using the lower per unit canopy settings with at higher volume yielded similar control to our standard sprayer. So we may have been having a hotter spray mix. But then we applied, you know, quite a bit less volume. So there is a trade off there. You know, maybe with some products like sulfur, you know, there's potential to maybe not be saving as much spray pesticide material. As you know, one one would hope based on that the trade offs. But we've also done work with some trials with synthetic fungicides. And those, even with the reduced rates and kind of mixed at a standard rate, they still performed quite well. And there's been lots of other studies across the US with this intelligent, prayer technology that have found great disease control with synthetic products at those lower use rates.   Craig Macmillan  11:49  You mentioned biologicals. First of all, why the interest in biologicals and then secondly, what did you find out?   Brent Warneke  11:54  We've really zeroed in on biologicals over the last three years, we kind of started with sulfur and looked at that for three years. And then we transitioned over to biologicals. And mostly because there is such an interest among growers and using them. I mean, they have a lot of, yeah, they have a lot of benefits. I mean, they're typically organic, they typically have short reentry and pre harvest intervals. And there's a ton of different development that's going on in the field and new products coming out all the time. Yeah, there's a lot of interest out there. So that's kind of why we started looking into them more, just to kind of quickly go over what we found, we definitely found that some products, there's a bit of a rate response, like if you apply more of them, you might get some better control. And then other ones, we found that that's not actually as much of a thing where those lower application rates can still have fairly comparable control to the higher application rates. And then we've also found some found that some products don't don't work very well, as well. So it just kind of depends. Another kind of overarching caveat is that the disease control that you can expect is definitely dependent on the disease pressure that's present. So these products are these biological products really need to be applied preventatively. And if there's a lot of disease pressure, a lot of disease in the field, they're not going to reverse that, like, you know, many fungicides will not and these, these are the same. So that's that's kind of another caveat.   Craig Macmillan  13:25  Right. What kind of reductions are we talking about? Like in terms of the sulfur work? You know, I think a standard application might be anywhere from two to five pounds per acre, biologicals, we're talking ounces per acre, or whatever liquid, what kind of reductions Did you see between your comparisons between the normal sprayer and the LiDAR controlled sprayer?   Brent Warneke  13:45  So this is a it is a true variable rate sprayer. So when there's less canopy, it applies less material, and then when there's more canopy, it applies more material. So looking at a graph of how it applies spray over the course of a season, it starts out really low, so at approximately 10 to 20 gallons per acre, and then it'll slowly increase up until the canopy is full. And that can be 40 to 50 pounds gallons per acre, depending on the settings. In general, we saw it we see approximately 70 to 90% SPRAY savings in those first applications of the season. And then as the canopy fills and the maximum canopy is achieved, it's more like 30% Spray savings.   Craig Macmillan  14:36  Ah, that's that's a lot.   Brent Warneke  14:37  Yeah, plus or minus depending on those those settings.   Craig Macmillan  14:41  What does that translate into in terms of like pounds of sulfur per acre?   Brent Warneke  14:44  That all depends on your mix rate and your application volume per acre. We saw with those lower application rates that were the default when we first got it. We were applying approximately one ish pound at the beginning of the season up to to about two and a half pounds at the end of the season, with that lower use rate and five pounds per 100 gallons, whereas in Standard Mode, it was applying about five and a half pounds of sulfur per acre. And with that higher spray rate that we tested, it still started the season at approximately one and a half pounds, but then increased up to around four pounds per acre. Yeah, and that was the setting where we adjusted the spray rate and were able to get good control of mildew.   Craig Macmillan  15:30  So if I was using a synthetic fungicide with this technology, that could be a major cost savings. Some of these fungicides are pretty expensive.   Brent Warneke  15:38  Absolutely. What we found with the synthetic fungicides is even mixing them at kind of your standard rate. And using this technology, which applies a lower volume, we still got great disease control comparable to a standard application. In terms of spray volume savings with synthetics, there's greater potential to save on volume and wastage than with contact pesticides, which need higher volumes higher coverage to be efficacious.   Craig Macmillan  16:06  Now, you said you started with an with an out of the box sprayer. So when you started this, it was a machine - a whole sprayer that you got. That was all constructed. Is that right?   Brent Warneke  16:22  What I had meant to insinuate by that was it was a sprayer that we just took and used as it was, we actually started this project, kind of midway into its usage. So some folks back at Ohio State University and the USDA ARS over there, design the sprayer and kind of developed a concept model for it and prove that it worked pretty well. And then the next step of the project was to take that control system that they developed and retrofitted onto existing sprayers. And then that's where we came in. So we got just a standard 50 gallon air blast sprayer, and had this sensor system retrofitted onto the sprayer and use that system in our tests.   Craig Macmillan  17:10  How difficult was that?   Brent Warneke  17:12  So the retrofitting itself is not too difficult. So we have two of the systems in our research program. And one of them uses a research version of the system. The other one uses a commercial version of the system because it has since been commercialized. And when we got the commercial system installed, it only took about two hours, maybe two or three hours to get installed, and then also calibrated on to our crop that we were focusing on. So pretty quick. And the company has, you know, representatives and stuff throughout the West, and across the country. So they're able to come out and provide customer support for that.   Craig Macmillan  17:51  So if I'm a grower, I don't need to have a master's degree in Ag Engineering to implement this kind of an idea. This is something that I can I can take and I can do myself.   Brent Warneke  18:04  Yep, yeah, the technology is there. And there is support. And it can be run by any knowledgeable pesticide applicator one, one note, all I will say about these sensor systems is it's good to have someone who wants to use them and to take an interest in them. Because they do have more caveats than your standard sprayer would. And if you don't really put the time and really learn to use the system. You won't be able to realize its benefits as much as you potentially could.   Craig Macmillan  18:40  Yeah, so like anything else you have to there's a learning curve, but this one doesn't seem like it's too steep.   Brent Warneke  18:43  Yep, it's a tool. And it takes some practice, but it can give you some good benefits.   Craig Macmillan  18:49  Are there other ag technologies out there that you're excited about?   Brent Warneke  18:53  You mentioned remote sensing earlier, that's a technology that I'm very interested in in terms of being able to detect changes in plant canopies and use that as a way to detect what's going on in the field. I'm also interested in drones both as a way to collect some of that remote sensing data. But then also in terms of spraying. Yeah, there's there's just been an explosion in drone spraying technology. It's constantly evolving. So that's something that I would like to do some more research on is looking at how good is are these drones for spraying in specialty crops such as wine grapes, what can we do to use them in that capacity to actually get good disease control good coverage and get some good returns.   Craig Macmillan  19:45  I remember a while back seeing it was a remote controlled helicopter that was set up to be a sprayer for wine grapes. Are you familiar with that technology for me when we're talking about.   Brent Warneke  19:57  Yeah, I think those are maybe the yeah Mahara Maxi are mentioning, it looks like a little helicopter. And they've done tests with them, I think up in Napa and that area   Craig Macmillan  20:08  Is it the same concept?   Brent Warneke  20:09  It's the same concept. Most of the drones I'm referring to are kind of more the quadcopter, with the four different rotors on the top kind of your, your classical drone shape. Just larger. I mean, these things have wingspans of close to 10 feet.   Craig Macmillan  20:28  Oh, wow.   Brent Warneke  20:29  And they, some of them can have eight gallon tanks on them. So they're, they're pretty sizable.   Craig Macmillan  20:36  And then we need an operator. So we need somebody who has the training and the licensing to do that.   Brent Warneke  20:43  Yep.   Craig Macmillan  20:44  How far away is that kind of technology from being out in the world?   Brent Warneke  20:47  Well, the drone sprayers are being used right now. There's, there's folks in the Willamette Valley, where I live in work, that are using these things in all kinds of crops. Right now, it's a very wet winter here where we live, so the fields get muddy, it's hard to get equipment in there. So that's kind of one aspect that is really appealing about these drones is that they can get into these areas that are kind of difficult to reach with tractors. And the same goes for hilly terrain.   Craig Macmillan  21:17   Eight gallons does not sound like very much   Brent Warneke  21:19  No, no. So application rates that these drones are targeting are typically less than 10 gallons per acre, you know, two to five gallons per acre is pretty common. I'm not by any means an expert at this point. So I won't get into the details of using them too much. But that's that's part of the impetus for the research is there's kind of there hasn't been a lot of looking into how efficacious these things are in specialty crops. So that's something that I think is a good opportunity.   Craig Macmillan  21:52  You mentioned remote sensing. Tell me more about that. You were interested in drones. But are you interested in satellite, aerial, proximal, you know, you have some kind of a sensor on on a piece of equipment being an ATV or being on a tractor. Where does your interest lie in that world?   Brent Warneke  22:09  I think in terms of remote sensing, I definitely have interest in the drone space. Because with that type of surveillance, you're able to get a lot finer spatial resolution than you can with, say, a satellite, I do appreciate that satellites, you can get information and data on a much wider field of view. So you can track much larger areas easier. And there's lots of different options out there that are either low cost or free. But drones I've I want to focus on a little bit more just because they're widely available. And lots of farms may already have them. And you can get very fine spatial resolution, which could allow determination of plant stressors such as disease, or localized water stress, or kind of other stresses with hopefully more precision than using satellite based technologies.   Craig Macmillan  23:10  With things like vine stress or disease pressure, can that be combined, either directly or indirectly, in combination with your on the ground spray application that can inform what you do?   Brent Warneke  23:21  Yeah, definitely, the spray application technology that we talked on a little bit earlier, was mostly in reference to real time sensor applications. So these are sprayers that go through the field, and adjust that what they're applying in real time based on what the sensor is seeing as it drives through the field. But there's other systems out there that use more of a prescription map approach, where they will take these remote sensing maps, or maps that are created from sensors on tractors, and then use that data to construct a prescription map. Where that is actually used. The map itself is actually used to adjust the amount of spray applied in a given area.   Craig Macmillan  24:06  Where are we going into the future? What kind of what actually I guess what I'm really asking is what kind of projects are you looking forward to. Is the current work ongoing? Are you starting new things? Where do you where do you want to go next?   Brent Warneke  24:16  Yeah, so our current work is, you know, as research tends to, it's always ongoing, there's other things always developing. So we're definitely continuing looking at biological fungicides. One aspect of biological fungicides that we want to delve into is kind of the compatibility. So what can we mix these things with? Is there any impact on the viability of these biological organisms that are in the products? Another thing is, are we affecting viability by using them in these various sprayers? So if we put these products through these airblast sprayers or through drone spraying systems and the like, is there any impact in their efficacy because they're expensive, and they're a lot they're alive. So those are some Some aspects. And then with the drones, I hope to do some research on looking at sprayer efficacy, specifically in wine grapes, and potentially other specialty crops as well, just to get some data on some of the spray parameters. So droplet size, volume per acre, how is that impacting coverage and efficacy? Those are, those are two things I definitely want to delve into.   Craig Macmillan  25:25  Cool, what one thing what one message, or recommendation do you make to our listeners regarding these topics, overall?   Brent Warneke  25:34  I would say that there's always a place to start to improve your spray efficiency. So we've been talking about sensor array sprayers and drones and remote sensing. And they're all kind of big technologies. But you don't need to worry about any of that if you just want to increase your application efficiency. I've looked and I work with other colleagues that work with spray application technology. And you can do what's called canopy adaptive spraying, which is basically working backwards from coverage on the spray cards to adjust your spray volume and the air volume that your sprayer is putting out to match the canopy. And actually looking at that in detail can save quite a bit of time and money and pesticide wastage by really targeting and matching that spray application output to the canopy itself. So that involves adjusting the spray volume using different nozzles and adjusting the air volume that's getting expelled at the sprayer by either changing the RPMs of the tractor driving faster or slower, or various ways like that. And then circling back to getting you know better good coverage. That's that will be efficacious with your products. And then on top of that standard sprayer, if you want to take it one more step, you could look into one of these sensor based systems, which could be retrofitted on your standard sprayer and increase efficiency in that way. And then on top of that, there's other autonomous sprayers that are out there that can take even more labor out of the equation. And many of those can be fitted with these sensors to increase their efficiency even more. And then if we want to take it one more step, then using some of this remote sensing data can even help streamline these things even more.   Craig Macmillan  27:32  So there's lots of things we can do. They don't all have to be rocket science, but the science is out there. And it's coming to us in new forms constantly, which I think is really exciting. The one of the things that got me excited about your work was, like you said, you know, the basic airblast style sprayer has been around for forever. We have all gotten very used to it. That's like the base technology. And I think it's a great message to say, we don't have to stop there. We can keep going we can make improvements on what we have. And it doesn't have to be, you know, skull crushingly difficult.   Brent Warneke  28:05  Yep, there's always some way that we can improve. Yep.   Craig Macmillan  28:09  Well, thank you, Brent. Our guest today has been Brent Warneke. He is senior faculty research assistant in the Department of Horticulture at Oregon State University. So I'm really excited about the work that you're doing. And it's really, really great. And I hope that you can get your message out there and help people reduce their pesticide load and improve their efficiency. You know, less labor, less diesel, less water. Those are all good things. So thanks for being on the podcast. Brent.   Brent Warneke  28:34  Definitely. Thank you very much for having me.   Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

You may be wondering, what do emotions have to do with simple, everyday decisions? It turns out, quite a lot! Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values. A 2023 Wine Glass Marketing (WGM) blog post points to Harvard Business School professor Gerard Zaltman's findings that 95% of our purchase decisions comes from our subconscious, emotional brain. Leveraging common psychological triggers in your marketing can help drive more sales! In this Marketing Tip, we'll help you identify how your brand elicits positive emotions, and what you can do with that information. Positive Emotional Triggers in Marketing Think about some of the things that give you positive emotions: Recognition: either for something you did, or for just being you! Achievement: completing a task, winning a game or raffle, etc. Engagement: in an activity or setting, whether solo or social.  From a marketing perspective, these can be achieved by: Personal communications with wine club members and regular visitors. Recommending products based on previous likes. Rewards programs, punch cards, discounts for special occasions, etc. Fostering an environment that aligns with your customer base: Soft background music versus upbeat dance tunes. Dim, romantic lighting for intimate conversations versus areas to play.  Can you think of more ways to elicit positive emotions from your members and visitors? A Personalized Approach Since every wine club is unique, how you use these tips must be tailored to your specific brand. Start by gathering data: How do people engage with your brand? Check out the click rates of your club emails. Which links get the most attention? Look at your tasting room traffic. Who is there, and what do they tend to do? What kind of social media posts get the most engagement? The ones that showcase the views, animals, events, or staff at your property?  Then, ask yourself if you can infer their possible motivations. Are your guests looking for: An opportunity to score a deal on their favorite wine. The sense of connection that comes from being engaged with your brand. A social event or place to interact with others. Information about your products and/or processes.  Take everything you've gathered from this exercise and think of ways to shift your current marketing efforts to include more of what gives your customer-base positive emotions. Tell Your Sustainable Story We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program. This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing your Sustainable Story today!     Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team. Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Marketing Tips eNewsletter ReSIProcal February Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic What's your Sustainable Story? Whitney Brownie | Get YOUR Sustainable Story Featured Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Erratic weather like deluge rain, longer falls, and patches of drought disrupt vinifera's adaptation to long-sustained winters. Jason Londo, Associate Professor of Horticulture in the School of Integrative Plant Sciences at Cornell AgriTech explains how big weather changes in the Pacific North East can cause vines to wake up earlier posing a risk to freeze or frost damage. By researching acclimation and deacclimation, Jason is working to breed and select varieties for enhanced cold resistance, drought resistance, pest resistance, plus good fruit quality. In the future, to reduce inputs in vineyards and increase economic sustainability we need to put the right grape in the right climate.  Resources:         135: Cold Hardiness of Grapevines Cold Hardiness prediction model and monitoring website for the Eastern US Foliar Applied Abscisic Acid Increases ‘Chardonnay' Grapevine Bud Freezing Tolerance during Autumn Cold Acclimation Jason Londo Jason Londo's Recent Publications Vitis Underground: NSF-PGRP project looking at rootstock-scion interaction across multiple environments. Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript Craig Macmillan  0:00  Our guest today is Jason Londo. He is Associate Professor of horticulture in the School of integrative Plant Sciences at Cornell agritech. We're gonna talk about some pretty cool stuff today. Thanks for coming on the show. Jason,   Jason Londo  0:11  Thank you for having me.   Craig Macmillan  0:12  Your work tends to center around identifying things like climate induced disorders, developing medication methods, improving resiliency and sustainability of crops like apples and grapes. How did you become interested in that that's a pretty interesting area.   Unknown Speaker  0:26  Originally, I was mostly interested in how plants adapt to stress just in general plants, because they're stuck to the ground that the seed lands on they are forced with so many complicated life's challenges, that it's really amazing what a plant can do in the face of stress. And so my curiosity has always been trying to figure out those strategies. But climate induced part of it is sort of reality striking into my passion, right? We know the climate is shifting, and it is shifting those stresses in a way that our plants can't necessarily respond in the same way that they used to, particularly because of the rate of climate change. So that's how I got interested in this topic, just trying to figure out how plants work when they're stressed out.   Craig Macmillan  1:13  And you're interested in plants in general. And then now you're focusing on specific crops, right?   Jason Londo  1:18  Yes, indeed, I started out originally working on endangered mints. If you can imagine that. Then I worked on rice. Then I worked on canola and I landed and fruit crops. And so yeah, lots of lots of diversity in those systems. All those plants have different stresses.   Craig Macmillan  1:35  They're all different families. I mean, he really jumped around.   Jason Londo  1:37  Oh, yeah. One of the coolest things about working in plant stress is plants across different clades evolved different ways of handling maybe the same stress. And you can learn a lot about sort of the limitations of stress response and the advantages and opportunities when you work across a lot of different systems. And so it makes for a tricky CV, because my publications kind of snake all over the place. But from trying to figure out the next strategy or figure out the next experiment, I feel like it's a real positive to have that background.   Craig Macmillan  2:13  I want to go back for a second because I think this is an important topic. And you mentioned clade. What is a clade? And how does that apply to looking at plant stress?   Jason Londo  2:24  And its most basic a clade is a group of plants that belong to the same sort of evolutionary history, and without getting into the real jargony. And the fights between what makes a species and what doesn't make a species. The basic concept is an evolutionary group. And so when I talk about plant stress strategies and differences between clades if we think about rice, it's a monocot. And so it has a completely different evolutionary lineage from most of our dicot fruit crops. Canola is a dicot it's a mustard. Both rice and canola are typically annualized, maybe sometimes there's a perennial version, when we talk about fruit crops, we're talking about, in my case, grapes and apples, Woody perennials, so dicot species that persists for many, many years. And so the strategies that are successful for for getting through a stressful situation can vary very much by those different life histories.   Craig Macmillan  3:24  We're kind of talking about stresses in general, what are particular stresses on things like apples and grapes that you're looking at.   Jason Londo  3:29  So in my program, it has a climate adaptation focus. And we all know that the main drivers behind climate change are temperature and precipitation. And here in the northeast, we do have a benefit in that we've got some room to get warm before it gets uncomfortable. And we have plenty of rain. But what we're seeing here is big changes in our winter weather shifts in our phonology. So the spring is coming earlier, the fall is coming later. And then we're also having big changes in precipitation. So little patches of drought, deluge, rain, and so very different from California, where things may be drying out. We're drying out, but in a very episodic sort of pattern. And the systems here are not built on drought management. They're not built so much on water logging either, although we do use tiling in the fields to Drain off excess water. And so when we're talking about climate impacts, here are primarily talking about temperature and shifts in precipitation.    I know that you've been looking at cold hardiness. What has been the pattern? What's the change that's happening in the Northeast as far as cold goes?   Yeah, so most of my career, as a as a PI has been in cold hardiness and cold stress response in grapes. I spent 10 years at the USDA as a geneticist, particularly diving into this topic, and even in those 10 years years I've seen a major shift in the intensity of our winters they are getting much more mild, but they're also coming very erratic. And so we're having large swings in temperature. I'm sure your listeners are familiar with the concept of a polar vortex we've had enough of them. Now, that is pretty common. When you take a perennial crops like grape, and you put it through winter, it's it's adapted to a long, sustained winter, not a real chaotic, episodic type winter where it gets warm and cold and warm than cold. The the complex molecular components of what tells the grape that it's safe to wake up don't function as well when you have those erratic temperatures. And so we're seeing, in general more mild, which is good for baseline cold hardiness, but also an uptick in sort of chaos. And that's not good for for any form of cold hardiness. And it particularly affects late winter, because the the plants wake up. As they're coming into spring, they respond to heat. And when you have weird weather in that really late winter, early spring, they can wake up too early and then suffer a lot of freeze damage or frost damage if they happen to break bud.   Craig Macmillan  6:11  What is the mechanism around freeze damage? I've interviewed some folks from like Michigan and Iowa and Ohio, we don't have freeze damage in California very much Washington, obviously. What are the parameters there? How cold for how long? And what's the actual mechanism of damage to the volume?   Jason Londo  6:29  Yeah, great questions. Very complicated questions.   Craig Macmillan  6:35  That's why we're here.   Jason Londo  6:35  Yeah, yeah. All grapes gain cold hardiness in the winter, regardless of where they are, it's a part of going dormant and making it through winter. The biggest changes that we see in the vine is that the buds will isolate from the vasculature. And so the little connections that come from the xylem and the phloem, into the bud, they actually get clogged up with pectins. And so you have to think of the bud is sort of like a little island tissue, it's not connected to the cane during winter. Once the bud does that it's able to gain cold hardiness and traverse winter. And that process is called acclamation. And so the buds gain a greater and greater ability to survive lower and lower temperatures. We don't know exactly how all of it works. But it's a mixture of making more sugars and making more Ozma protectant inside the buds so that water freezes at lower temperatures and also controlled dehydration. So the more you can dehydrate a tissue, the less likely ice crystals will form in pure water. But and we don't know how they do this. And it's quite magical if you think about it, but they're able to suck out all of this internal water so that it is less and less likely for water to freeze inside the cell. If they can keep the ice crystals from forming inside the cell. We call that cold hardiness that they they are surviving freeze damage, we can measure the temperature that reaches that defense. And you've had other speakers on your show that have talked about cold hardiness. It's called differential thermal analysis. And we basically measure the precise temperature where the water freezes through some tricks of thermodynamics, that cold hardiness failure point changes throughout the whole winter, and it changes by the location that the grape is growing in. What we do know about the system is that it takes oscillating temperatures to gain cold hardiness. So it has to get warm than cold warm than cold, warm than cold and progressively colder in order to ramp down and gain cold hardiness, then it has to stay cold for the cold hardiness to sort of hang out at the maximum cold hardiness. And that maximum cold heartedness is going to differ by region. So here in New York, something like Chardonnay will reach a maximum cold hardiness of maybe negative 27 Celsius. I cannot do the Fahrenheit conversion,.   Craig Macmillan  9:00  That's fine. That's fine.   Jason Londo  9:03  But say, say negative 27 Fahrenheit, whereas in California, it may not gain more than negative 20. And that's because it just doesn't get pushed. As you go through winter. You go through a whole bunch of other stuff with dormancy chilling our requirement, and that changes the way that the bud responds to temperature. And you enter a phase called Eco dormancy, which is now resistance to freezing based on how cold the vineyard is. And so when you get warm spikes in late winter, when the buds are eco dormant. They think those are a little preview that it's springtime and so they lose their cold heartedness really quickly they start reabsorbing that water, and they'll freeze that warmer and warmer temperatures. And so that's really the most dangerous time in this sort of climate chaos. When you think about winter that late winter period is when the vines are reacting with their adaptive complex for 1000s of years. When it started to warm up. It meant it was spring and now they're starting To think, okay, spring is coming. But we're still in February in New York, maybe in. In California. It's more like it's January and you're getting a warming event. And they all move right towards bud break. And then of course, they can get hit pretty hard by a leak freeze or a frost.   Craig Macmillan  10:15  Yeah, exactly. I'm guessing this varies by variety.   Jason Londo  10:19  Yes, very much. So, vinifera varieties are typically less hardy than the North American adapted varieties, the, the hybrid varieties is often gets used. I don't particularly like the word hybrid. But these cold climate grapes that have been bred by University of Minnesota and Cornell, they tend to have greater maximum cold hardiness. But they also tend to wake up in the spring much faster. And that's partly because of the genetic background that those hybrids were made from. When you breed with species that come from the far north, like Vitis riparia, those species are adapted to a very short growing season, which means as soon as it's warm enough to start growing, they go for it to try to get through their entire cycle. So now we're starting to see that there are some potential issues with climate change when we think about hybrid varieties that use those those northern species, and that they may be more prone to frost damage in the future.   Craig Macmillan  11:15  Oh, really, that's I wouldn't have thought that I would have thought the opposite. So obviously, we have different species. So we have some genetic differences between what I'll call wild grapes or native grapes, the Oh, invasive plant itis vinifera that has been  thrown around. What can we learn by looking at the genetics of native North American varieties?   Jason Londo  11:38  from a cold hardiness perspective,   Craig Macmillan  11:40  cold hardness, just in general drought resistance, pest resistance?   Jason Londo  11:44  Well, in general, they're a massive resource for improvement, which depends on who is who's calling a species species. But there may be up to 20 Different wild species in North America. And each of those wild species has a different evolutionary trajectory that has given it the ability to create adaptive gene complexes, that could be useful in viticulture, as we have shifting climate, away from what maybe vinifera likes, hot and dry into further northern latitudes, you know, that if the California industry has to start moving up in latitude or up in altitude, we start integrating different stresses that maybe those vines haven't been exposed to in their evolutionary history, you know, from Europe. And so these wild species just have these potentially novel genes, potentially novel pathways where genes are interacting with one another, that give vines a greater plasticity. And so this concept of plasticity is if you take an individual and you put it in environment a, and it grows to size 10, but you put it in environment B and it grows to size 20. The difference there is the plasticity between those two environments. And we really, if we want sustainable viticulture, what we want to encourage is using cultivars that have maximal plasticity. So as the environment shifts around them, they're still able to give you the same yield the same sugars, the same quality, you know, within a within an error bar anyway, they're the most resilient over time. And incorporating traits and pathways that come from wild grapes can help build that plasticity in the genetic background coming from the European great.   Craig Macmillan  13:23  So we're talking about crosses, we're talking about taking a native plant and then vinifera crossing to create something new. You had said that you don't know you don't care for the word hybrid. Why not? That's interesting to me.   Jason Londo  13:35  Because it has a negative connotation in the wine drinker. realm, right people think of hybrids as lower quality as not vinifera, so lesser. And I think I'm not an enologists. I'm not a viticulturalists. So I want to be careful on whose toes I mash. But if we're talking about sustainability of a crop through an erratic climate, we can do a lot with vinifera we can we can mitigate climate change a lot with vinifera, but at some point, the inputs may become too much to make it a sustainable crop and then we need to be able to move to adapted varieties. And we can adapt the wine quality from vinifera to climate chaos, by breeding and and selecting for enhanced cold resistance, enhanced drought resistance, enhance pest resistance, and good fruit quality. That's a little bit of a soapbox. But when people say hybrid, it's like lesser, but it's, in my opinion, it's more we're taking something great. And we are increasing its plasticity across the the country across the growing zones. We are giving it a chance to grow in more regions reach more local communities create a bigger fan base. So I get really my hackles got up because there is amazing hybrid based on Climate adapted based wines, and winemakers. And when we use the word hybrid people just automatically in their mind shifted into lesser. And I think that's unfortunate. I think it's something that we need to work actively as an industry against, because a lot of those particular disease resistance traits are coming from wild germ plasm. That is not in the European grape. And we just can't solve all our problems with that one species.   Craig Macmillan  15:30  So the kinds of traits that we're talking about these environmental adaptations, or acclamations, these will be polygenic trades, how do you find these? I'm assuming that you're looking for those specific genetic information to say, Yeah, this is the plant that I want to use in my my breeding program. What does that look like? How do you do that?   Jason Londo  15:49  So the approaches are very similar to when you're working on single locus traits. And so disease resistance and fruit color are good examples of traits that often can be found in single locus examples, again, would be fruit color, or sort of run one disease resistance, there's a whole bunch of different disease resistance was like polygenic traits can be found the same way, you have to make a cross between two different grapes that have different phenotypes. And so that might be a drug sensitive, and a drought tolerant individual. And you plant out a whole lot of baby grapes 200, 300 progeny from that cross, and then you score them with phenotypes. And with polygenic traits, it's a lot harder to find them sometimes, because in that group of, say, 300, babies, you're not looking for the movement of one gene. In that background, you're looking for maybe the movement of five to 10 different genes. And that means instead of getting a light switch kind of trait, red or white fruit, you're getting a little bit more drought resistant, a whole lot more drought resistant, but there is a gradient, right? When you have a gradient for a phenotype, you need a lot more grape babies in order to get the statistical support to say, hey, this piece of the genome right here, this makes a grape, a little bit more drought resistant. And over here, this piece of the genome does the same thing. And when you put them together, they either add up one plus one, or sometimes they multiply two times two, you use the same approaches, it's typically a little trickier. And you got to kind of do a couple extra years of screening. But it's the same basic playbook to track down those different traits. And we have to do a lot of different phenotypes for drought response, you might be looking for the ability to root deeper, have bigger root masses, you might be looking at bigger hydraulic conductance in the trunk, you might be looking at betters to model control. You might be looking at pyres to model density or lowers to model density, you could be looking at thicker or thinner leaves. So you can imagine if there's lots of ways to be more drought resistant. There's lots of genes that help you in that pursuit. You need a lot of baby grapes in order to find all those little pockets where those genes come together and give you a statistical shift and in the phenotype.   Craig Macmillan  18:10  So you're able to identify these are you using something like qualitative trait?   Jason Londo  18:13  Exactly. Quantitative trait loci?   Craig Macmillan  18:16  Yes, exactly. So that helps speed the process up a little bit. Maybe.   Unknown Speaker  18:20  Yeah, so so QTL mapping, quantitative trait loci mapping is the probably the dominant way that we map traits. There's another way called GWAS, genome wide association studies, is built on the same concept where you have a big enough population of either grape babies or in the case of GWAS its diversity. So you'd say, let's say you had 200 Different Vitis riparias instead of 200. Babies, the principle is the same. You are looking for across all of those vines, statistical association between a specific part of the genome and a phenotype to like make it really simple. In 200 babies, grape babies, you want to have enhanced drought resistance. You let's say we take a measurement of carbon isotope concentration and so that carbon isotopes tell you how often the stomates are open, right? So you do an experiment. And you drought stress your plants, and you use carbon isotopes as the phenotype and you say, Okay, this group of 75 individuals, they all shut their stomates right away, and this other group of 125, they kept their stomates open. So then in those two groups, you look at all the genetic markers that are in the background, right, which are like little signposts across the genome. And you say, in this group of 75, which genetic markers do we see over and over and over again, outside of statistical randomness, right? And what that will give you a peek a QTL peak, if you're lucky, right, I'll give you a cue to help you can say hey, right here on chromosome four, every single baby in that pool has a has this set of markers, these five Mark occurs. So there must be a gene, somewhere near these five markers that contribute to closing your stomates. And so then extrapolate that out whatever trait you want to look at how whatever phenotype method you're using, maybe it's not carbon isotope, maybe it's leaf mass, maybe it's node number, I don't know, whatever that screening process is, the concept is the same. You have big enough population, a good genetic marker background, and a phenotype that you can measure. And you can find the statistical associations.   Craig Macmillan  20:32  And actually, that reminds me of something, how many chromosomes do grapes have?   Jason Londo  20:36  Well, bunch grapes have 19 muscadine. grapes have 20.   Craig Macmillan  20:39  That's a lot. Which means that there's a lot of genetic variation in the genome of these plants, then.   Jason Londo  20:47  Yeah, if you think about, I mean, grape is sort of a funky beast, because a lot of these varieties that we grow, they're all They're all of the arrays, we grow our clonal. And some of them are 1000s of years old, the same genetic individual from 7000 to 10,000 years ago, we still have around today, in that process, it's it's changed, right? There's mutations that happen in the field all the time. And so even thinking about genetic clones and thinking the idea of Chardonnay being around that long, it's changed in those 7000 years, just naturally. So when you think about comparing two different clones, or two different cultivars, or clones, there's something like 43,000 Different recognized genes in vitis vinifera, that number I can give you in the different wild species, because it varies by species, but roughly 40,000 at those 40,000 genes in a in a single individual, you can have up to two different copies, right. So you could have essentially 80,000 different alleles, then you go across, I don't know, what do we have 12,000 recognized cultivars or something like that? There are something like 60 Grape species. And so now imagine the amount of potential variation you have across that entire gene pool. And so yeah, the genetic diversity within the crop as a whole is incredible. There's a lot of room for improvement. And there's a lot of room for climate adaptation. Just takes a lot of grape babies to figure it out.   Craig Macmillan  22:12  And that brings us something else. And that is the the idea of mutation. One of the issues, I think that is a stumbling block, and you mentioned it, there is the consumer, if it's not Cabernet Sauvignon, can't call it Cabernet Sauvignon. I'm not as interesting, which is something that I think we need some help from the marketing world with. Because I agree with you very much. I think if we're going to have wine in the future, we're going to have to start thinking about things other than just the cultivars that we have. Now, can you do the same kind of work with but mutation? Can you take a cane grew from a button, plant that out and look for differences between the same plant?   Jason Londo  22:53  Yeah, so you're basically talking about clonal selection clonal selection is practice worldwide by different regions, always with this eye towards making something that we currently have a little bit better or a little bit more unique, right, somatic mutations, random mutations occur in the genetic background all the time. And they often occur in response to stress, which is a really interesting angle, if you think about climate stress. So these mutations happen all the time in the background. Frequently, they will land on pieces of DNA that don't do anything that we know up. I don't want to say that no DNA is unimportant, that there are sections that we don't believe are that important. We call these non coding regions are sometimes introns. When you have a mutation in that area, sometimes there's no effect on the vine at all. And that's happening all the time in the fields. Right now. If you think about all the 1000s to millions of cab sauv vines that are growing in the world, we like to think of them even if you pick a single clone as the same genetic individual. And that is, that's simply not possible. There's so much background mutation going on in those parts of the DNA that don't give us any change in phenotype. There's no way it's all the same. We'd like to simplify it. We'd like to simplify it for our drinking behavior, as well as you know, like our sanity. But yes, you can select for clonal variation. And clonal variation happens all the time when those changes happen to land in a gene producing region, exon or perhaps a promoter or, or even in a transposable element to make a piece of DNA jump around the genome, we get a new clone, you can purposely create clones as well. So it happens naturally, but you can create clones on your own and mutational breeding is something that gets used in a lot of crop species in grapes it doesn't get used as often because it's modifying the base plant, right? So if you take Chardonnay and you want to increase his disease resistance, if it doesn't have a gene that you can break or change that would give it more disease resistance, then you can't create a clone with more disease resistance, right? You're working with a big a base plant that has limitations, but we have So we have a population where this was done it was it was done actually by the USDA by Dr. Amanda Garis. She no longer works for the USDA, but she worked here in Geneva. And they did a project where they took the variety of vignoles, which has a very compact cluster and tends to get a lot of rot. And they took a bunch of dormant canes with the buds, and they put it in a high powered X ray machine at the hospital and blasted it with X rays. What X ray damage does to DNA is it causes breaks between the double strands so all of our DNA and all our genes are wrapped up in in double stranded DNA. And when you do DNA damage with X ray mutagenesis, you break the two strands. And then when they heal themselves back together, it's often imperfect. And so they'll often lose a couple base pairs like there'll be a little piece get that gets nipped out. When you put those two pieces back together and repair, if that landed in exon, you can sometimes change the protein that would have been made by that exon or completely knocked the gene out in its entirety. Creating a clone, you're just doing it faster than nature is doing it on its own. We do it with a hospital X ray machine. And so with this method, they created about 1000 clones of vignoles. And they've made I think 10 selections out of that group that have bigger, looser clusters, so the berries are further spaced out. So they don't get damaged, they don't get as much rot. And I think those are now starting to make their way out into trials. There's an example of a very directed approach to creating a clone to fit fit a very specific viticultural problem that may or may not work for climate adaptation because of the polygenic aspect that you brought up before. Because if you break one gene and a poly genic, adaptive complex, it may not be enough to shift the entire physiology into a recognizably different pattern, it could work to make them less resilient, because you could break something that's really important. But breaking something that's important, but works out for you in the long run is just playing that randomizer lottery a little bit further. So it's doable. It can happen in nature, it can happen on purpose in our hands, but it is trickier for certain traits.   Craig Macmillan  27:21  So we're not going to X ray our way out of climate problems, basically, or diseases problems, right? Well, there may not be the right genetic information in the background of vinifera that even if we tried that, we'd have that set of genes that we would need, whereas we would have it in a native, native vine North American vine.   Jason Londo  27:42  And just a sheer a sheer number of breaks that you might have to make in order to shift the physiology enough to matter. These climate adaptation pathways are highly networked. They involve hormones, they involve sugar metabolism. And so if you really break something important, it's going to cause a really bad phenotype of death phenotype, you have to nudge the system enough in a specific direction to make a meaningful change. And so, given the complexity of the trade, it makes it harder. I don't want to say anything is impossible. I do think that there would be ways to make vinifera better, more plastic in the environment. I think the potential is there for vinifera to do better in a lot of climates. I don't know if directed mutagenesis is the most efficient way to do it. I mentioned is that random, right, you're breaking double stranded DNA at random, and then it's really healing and there's so many things have to work out for you to hit the right gene, have the right repair, you know, all of that sort of stuff that it's a method, but I don't I wouldn't say it's the most efficient method breeding with wild germ plasm is also a method, the key weakness there is then it's no longer Chardonnay, right from our wine drinking sort of our own personal biases on that situation. We outcross Chardonnay to make it more climate resilient. It's no longer Chardonnay. So it can't be sold as Chardonnay. And that itself creates a market pressure against changing it to something that's more resilient. And I think until the climate imparts an equal level of pain as consumer pressure, we won't get there. I don't think it's a question of if it will happen. It's a question of when.   Craig Macmillan  29:23  What kind of projects are you working on currently? You've mentioned experiments and breeding and it's now what do you what do you up to?   Jason Londo  29:29  So I have a pretty diverse program climate impacts is all season so we have a lot of winter projects. And we've covered some of that now trying to understand how Acclimation and deaacclimation work and if we can enhance it, we're working with but birth control. So if we could slow down deacclimation and delay by break, we could get around frost damage. And then I'm also working on a really big project is actually coming to an end where we've been looking at what the role of a rootstock is our mapping population concept that we talked about for QTL Mapping, we were talking about the scion, I have a project where we did that with the rootstock. And so we created a mapping population. The only part that is the grape babies is the roots. And we've grafted the same variety onto those roots. And then we're looking at how the different grape baby roots change the scions behavior. A really cool thing about this project is that we've replicated it clonally replicated it and grafted it in three different locations. So we have a vineyard in Missouri, a vineyard in South Dakota and a vineyard here in New York. And so across those three different environments, which are quite different, both in maximum temperature, minimum temperature and precipitation, we're learning so many cool things about what the roots can do to the same scion for your listeners, of course, they know grapes, so they know hopefully enough about grafting and that the rootstock and the scion are two different individuals. And they're mechanically grafted together. From a climate adaptation point of view, what you've done is you've taken an intact and adapted individual, and you've cut its head off, and then you've taken another climate adapted individual, and you've cut its legs off, and you've glued them together, and ask them to perform in the environment, which is just a wild, wild communication question. When the roots are experiencing one environment, and the shoot is experiencing another, how do they communicate? And then how does that affect our grape quality and wine quality? And so we're looking at drought response, can we increase the drought resistance of the Scion, based on the type of root it's on? Can we change the leaf nutrient profile, so the different ions that are taken up from the soil and how they're concentrated in the leaves. And of course, we don't really care about the leaves as much as we care about the fruit, the leaves are easy to work with. And we're even started working on wine quality. And so it looks like across our experiments, we might be able to optimize the rootstock and scion combinations we grow in different climates. To produce specific wind quality attributes, which is really cool.   Craig Macmillan  32:00  That is really cool. That is really cool. We're just about out of time. But I want to is there one thing on the on these topics that you would like or recommend to our listeners, or you'd like our listeners to know?   Jason Londo  32:11  Oh, well, I think their take home is is that we should all appreciate the new cultivars that come on the scene, whether they be from early regions like the the Eastern caucuses, something that we are not used to having in this country, or its climate adapted varieties that are bred in this country, and grown in these different regions. We need to do our best to open our minds not to does this grape or that grape tastes like cab sauv, or tastes like Chardonnay. But isn't it amazing what this grape tastes like period, because a lot of the the advances in resilience and sustainability that we can get out of either adopting new cultivars, shifting cultivars from climate to climate, or by using hybrid varieties in different regions, all of the benefits that we can get out of growing the right kind of grapes in the right climate, reduces inputs in the vineyard reduces inputs on the ecology. It increases the economic stability of rural communities. And it gives you pride in what the local region can produce. And I guess my take home would be is drink more adapted wines, enjoy them, figure out the nuances. Some of them are not great, but some of them are really great. drink more wine.   Craig Macmillan  33:33  Where can people find out more about you and your work?   Jason Londo  33:36  So the easiest way is just to Google my name and Cornell and that will take you right to my Cornell page. There's not a lot of information on my Cornell page, and I'm a big procrastinator on my personal website. But you can find my contact information there and certainly get a hold of me directly. If there's anything of interest. I will also send you some links that you can use to take listeners to the Vitis underground project, which is the NSF rootstock project I talked about, I can send you a link to we have a cold hardiness website where we post prediction models that we've built about cold hardiness across most of the Eastern US. We hope to expand that to be nationwide once once I get a stronger computer, but I can send you some links there. Yeah, I would say that that's probably the best places to find information on me and the program here. And if people are in town to come and see Cornell Agrotech and see some of the stuff in the field.   Craig Macmillan  34:30  I would love to pay a visit. I've interviewed a number of your colleagues there and there's so much cool stuff going on. really innovative and really groundbreaking feel like we're on the leading edge of a wave that some point is going to break again. Maybe we'll be drinking wines other than the ones we've been drinking. I can see that happening. Anyway. So our guest today was Jason Londo. He's Associate Professor of horticulture in the School of integrative Plant Sciences at Cornell agritech. Thank you.   Jason Londo  34:55  Thanks   Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai

People today are paying closer attention to the values of the brands they support. Research conducted by Harris Poll revealed that 82% of shoppers prefer a consumer brand's values to align with their own, and they'll vote with their wallet if they don't feel a match. Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values. In addition to consumers voting with their dollars, Harris Poll found that 75% of shoppers surveyed have even parted ways with a brand over a conflict in values! Sustainable winegrowers and winemakers can easily connect with conscious consumers over these 7 values." 1. Social Responsibility Practicing social responsibility helps foster healthy relationships at work and in the community: Treat employees and the community with care and respect. Get involved in charity work, volunteering, & donations. Are aware of the impacts of the business (social and environmental!). 2. Water Management Did you know that less than 1% of our planet's water is accessible freshwater we can use to fulfill our daily needs? Sustainable wine brands do! That's why they: Use native plants for landscaping and cover crops. Conduct plant and soil tests to determine irrigation needs. Collect and reuse wastewater.  3. Safe Pest Management Both commercial and hobbyist farmers deal with pesky pests that damage crops, steal resources, and spread diseases. Sustainable winegrowers use an informed and tailored approach to tackling their farm's unique and dynamic pest complex: Introduce beneficial insects to challenge insect pests. Attract birds of prey to hunt vertebrate pests. Manage canopy and fruit density to reduce mildew pressure. All of these practices are part of an Integrated Pest Management (IPM) system. 4. Energy Efficiency Making wine is an energy-intensive process. Whether from fuel, battery, or electricity, energy is used at every step of the process that turn grapes to wine. With so many uses of energy, there are many ways to improve efficiency: Reduce tractor passes with vineyard equipment that covers multiple rows. Reduce energy use by properly insulating tanks and buildings. Reduce dependence on fossil-fuel—based electricity with alternative sources like wind and solar.  5. Habitat Sustainable winegrowers cultivate a biologically-diverse ecosystem that sets the vineyard up to thrive without excessive use of inputs like water and fertilizers: Create and adhering to conservation plans. Maintain wildlife corridors to give wildlife safe passage. Preserve open, uncropped areas so native plant and wildlife species have a home.  6. Business Sound and responsible business practices help set a business up for long-term success: Annual and multi-year budgets. Accurate record keeping. Offer benefits packages and competitive pay.  7. Always Evolving In order to stay successful and relevant, sustainable businesses constantly look for opportunities to learn more and evolve: Attend and host educational events. Subscribe to local and industry news. Provide education and upward movement opportunities for employees. We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program. This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course.  Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing your Sustainable Story today!     Until next time, this is Sustainable Winegrowing with the Vineyard Team. Resources: *** Tell Your Sustainable Story Online Course *** Marketing Tips eNewsletter ReSIProcal February Sustainable Story | Print Sustainable Story | Electronic What's your Sustainable Story? Whitney Brownie | Get YOUR Sustainable Story Featured Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member

Adding biochar as a soil amendment creates an ideal habitat for beneficial microorganisms. Sitos Group CEO and Co-founder Mayo Ryan and PR, Marketing, and Communications Manager Jessica Bronner explain how biochar amendments improve disease resistance, plant health, pest resistance, water retention, and drought mitigation. The team explains three different ways to make biochar and why they have chosen to use the slow pyrolysis method to ultimately produce biochar for different soil types. Resources: REGISTER: February 16, 2024 Biochar in the Vineyard 56: Conservation Burning and Biochar 106: What? Bury Charcoal in the Vineyard? 167: Use Biochar to Combat Climate Change Burn: Igniting a New Carbon Drawdown Economy to End the Climate Crisis Carbon Removal FAQ Monterey Pacific Inc. New Science Says Biochar is Very Permanent Regeneration Regeneration: Ending the Climate Crisis in One Generation Sitos Group Sitos Group Biochar Page Sitos Group Blog Sitos Group Social Channels: LinkedIn | Instagram | Facebook | YouTube United States Biochar Initiative Why ‘regenerative viticulture' is gaining ground among major wine producers Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript Craig Macmillan  0:00  Our guest today are Mayo Ryan. He is CEO and co founder of the Sitos Group and also his colleague, Jessica Bronner, who is the PR marketing communications manager for the Sitos roup as well. Thank you both for being here.   Mayo Ryan  0:12  You're welcome, Craig. Hey, happy to be here.   Jessica Bronner  0:14  It's a pleasure.   Craig Macmillan  0:16  So what is the Sitos Group? What do you folks do? How did it start? I know the answers to these questions, but like why are we here? Today we're going to talk about biochar. But where are you focusing? What do you do?   Mayo Ryan  0:29  Well, you know, when we when we figure it out, I think we'll let you know but anyway, where we are today is Sitos Group is a California based biochar manufacture and carbon removal company and we got started two years ago. It was a really great collaboration between myself and our co founder Steve McIntyre. Steve is the owner, founder and owner of Monterey Pacific, which is a very large vineyard management company, based in solid California about an hour south of Salinas and Monterey  Pacific farms about 18,000 acres of wine grapes in the Monterey County and San Luis Obispo areas. Steve's a winemaker and has his own winery. And he started using biochar with his in house soil scientist Dr. Doug Beck. almost 10 years ago, Doug has spent a lifetime in Far East Asia perfecting and understand the use of biochar and brought it to Monterey Pacific. They've perfected that use. And so, Stephen Monterey Pacific along with Doug had the use of biochar and winegrapes down I started my journey into biochar in late 2017. Designing and building an almond processing company in Northern California, in that process wanted to do something different to the almond shell market is is really valueless. It's a valueless byproduct almond hole is used in cattle feed in that year, the price dropped by 75%. So we were looking for an alternative income source in the form of almond shell and the next year and 2018, Kathleen Draper and Albert Bates wrote this seminal book called Burn and oddly enough, coincidentally, Steve and I read the book The same year, and it's what got us into biochar was the big sort of lightbulb moment. And then in 2018, I think October it was the inner governmental Panel on Climate Change wrote its report about negative emissions technologies. And in my head, I put those two together and have really drank the biochar Kool Aid and never going back. This is a lifelong venture now. We got together a few years ago, a fellow graduate of the California ag leadership program, we're both graduates of that program got us together, Steve's headwinds where he knew everything there was to know about using biochar in agricultural setting. And I had the, you know, production technology side of it pretty well wrapped up his headwinds were my tail winds and vice versa, we got together and as I said earlier, it's a marriage made in heaven. We've had a really wonderful partnership over the last almost couple of years, we have a pilot plant up and running at Regen Monterey, which is Monterey County's Waste Management District, with this incredible staff there. And our partner in that project is Keith Day, who runs the compost operation, the Keith day company that runs the compost operation at region Monterey, and we've had a pilot plant up and running since early this summer. And yeah, things are going really well.   Craig Macmillan  3:04  So question for you, Jessica. How did you get involved with the Sitos Group?   Jessica Bronner  3:08  That is a lovely question. So Steve reached out one day and was like, Hey, I have a job opportunity for you. And he connected with mayo, and the rest was history. And I always joke that I never thought I'd be excited about dirt, except now I'm excited about chocolate ish, kind of st compound. But yeah, that's how I got into it. And I'm never looking back. I can tell you that for sure.   Craig Macmillan  3:32  And so I've got another question for you. Jessica because I think you might have a really great answer to this. We have other episodes on this topic, but just very briefly, what exactly is biochar and what are some of the uses for it?   Jessica Bronner  3:44  So biochar, what Mayo calls is a wonder drug. And I could not agree more. I really porous material, and it's actually a type of charcoal with a low ash content. So it's a higher carbon content. What sets it apart from charcoal is its porosity. So it's has a lot of pores inside of it. We call it the coral reef for the soil. So all of those pores and little rooms are kind of housing for the micro organisms, or the soil biota that we incorporate into it.   Craig Macmillan  4:16  Mayo, you had mentioned how you kind of got connected to it. What are some of the uses for biochar in agriculture?   Mayo Ryan  4:22  We're farmers at heart and I mean, you all of us are lifelong agriculturalists. So we really start the conversation about biochar from an agricultural perspective. It is a wonderful soil amendment and because of its porosity, as Jessica said, and the idea that it is this coral reef for the soil, all of the complex fungi and bacteria and the myriad other micro organisms that help us with our digestion and our immunity and our disease resistant, live in, in biochar, it's like long term housing for all of those organisms. And I mean, in a single handful of soil there are more micro organisms, microbial bodies and our human beings on the planet and and biochar is their long term housing. You know, it's a condo for them. And so they take up residence, and it just fuels all this great activity that all those organisms have when they interact with the plant this complex communication between microbial activity and the plant itself. And so it leads to increased fertility, plant health, disease resistance, pest resistance, a really good amount of moisture retention, so drought mitigation, you know, and you just go down a list like a, like Jessica said, I think it's a wonder drug because it has these almost unbelievable amount of CO benefits. It does so many good things. That's just on the on the agricultural side, what we think about at Sitos are these co equal benefits of soil health and carbon sequestration. It's a really effective shovel ready and efficient tool. First, full carbon seed, atmospheric carbon removal,   Craig Macmillan  5:50  You talked about carbon. So obviously, this is made from materials that are high in carbon, Jessica, what kinds of materials go into this process that we're going to talk about in a second, what kinds of materials go into making biochar?   Jessica Bronner  6:02  Well, ultimately, you can pyrolyze is the secret word that we're going to get into in a little bit, but you can pyrolyze any organic matter Sitos Group specifically, we are currently working with municipal wood waste. We tried working with some compost leftovers previously, and they were a little high in water content for us to make biochar in the moment. So now we're just using some wood residue from other wood materials that are lower in the water content, but you can pyralyze organic, any type of organic waste, if that's biosolids, if that's corn husks, if that's vineyard waste, or almond waste, we're looking to get into almond waste almond hole and shell later on down the road hopefully sooner than later. But anything organic ultimately, if it's going back into the agricultural application,   Craig Macmillan  6:51  So Mayo, there's a particular process we've called pyrolysis that's necessary to make this happen so that you don't end up with ash or charcoal is it's a different kind of a combustion Mayo, Can you talk a little bit more about pyrolysis and then we'll talk about how you actually do it.   Mayo Ryan  7:04  Our goal is to ultimately make various qualities of biochar for specific soil types. And so we want a machine that's adjustable, which is why we pick slow pyrolysis there are other means of making biochar one's called gasification. And that's what we have largely in California. These are these are really energy production facilities where energy is about 80% of the product and biochar is a byproduct. Fast pyrolysis is another way to do it. Slow pyrolysis is a little bit different. There aren't many manufacturers that equipment around the world, but I think we found a great one and that machines very adjustable. So we can through different throughput times different temperature rates, we can make biochar 's that have higher pH level than others or a higher cation Exchange capacity and ultimately hope to customize biochar for soil types but you know, it's a new process. This is our machine at Regen Monterey the pilot plant is the first of its kind in the country. We've spent a good long while investigating manufactures years actually at this and, and are really pleased with this. With this process. The machine was invented or designed by two professors and biochar, Johanna Sleeman at Cornell and Stephen Joseph at the University of New South Wales, to pretty eminent people in our world. And so far, we're really pleased with the design and hope to perfect it over the years. And, you know, get the most out of it that we can it's economic, it's fairly easy to operate. As Jessica said, it's feedstock agnostic, we can use a lot of different feedstocks, and it's transportable, we can put one in a 40 foot trailer and, and you know, it's not like we can hook it up to the back of a car and drive it around. But it is somewhat transportable.   We've had other guests on the podcast and I've had tailgates where we have had big piles of vines that we lit from the top and then hose down material at the end. I've talked to people about digging pits and burning stuff covered in the ground. We've seen some smaller kinds of units, kind of like a tank I've seen people doing and kind of an open trench. The secret to pyrolysis is it's the low edition of oxygen. Is that right?   That's exactly right. Yeah.   Craig Macmillan  9:08  So you're talking about a machine. So what is this machines, magical machine? What is how does it work? How do you get stuff into it? How does it burn? How do you get stuff out of it? How much can you do at a time? Does it take 10 people to operate it? I've just gotten super curious about this, because this is the first time I've really heard about this kind of technology.   Mayo Ryan  9:27  You make it sounds so mysterious, but it's really not all the processes you described, Craig are what stands out about them is that they're batch processes. We wanted something that was continuous. There's such an abundance of agricultural byproducts, waste and biosolids, and forest waste in California that we wanted something that we could start this machine or put two or three of them side by side and it was a continuous process. So the feedstock enters the machine in a in a trough at the bottom of the machine at a temperature say 150 degrees centigrade, the moisture leaves so we dry the feedstock going in and In it say 350 to 500 degrees centigrade, all of the non carbon materials. The volatiles, if you will in that feedstock, whether it's almond shell or biosolids, or wood waste go away from the feedstock. And what we create is this bubble of sin gas or production gases. And at those temperatures, those sin gases combust. That bubble of of flame, if you will, lives above the feedstock. And that heat is what pyralyzes that say 750 degrees centigrade, paralyzes the feedstock. And what paralyzation means is it literally means change by fire. And so that feedstock goes from whatever it was with whatever quantities of lignin, cellulose hemicellulose into almost a pure carbon, it's completely chemically transformed. And what you end up with is just because it earlier is this very porous material. One of the quality standards for biochar is the International biochar initiative, surface area standard, which is 500 meters per gram. It was hard to get my head around this, but that's the surface area of a football field in the size of a pencil eraser. And that just speaks to how porous and fragile it is. And if you were to take an electron microscope and look at one of the walls of those pores, it would look exactly like the original start. It's very fractal down to different degrees of magnification. And at that high carbon content level microbes break their teeth on it, you know, it's it's something that lasts in the soil for hundreds, if not 1000s of years, as farmers we are using the biochar, principally for soil health and Plant Health take that responsibility for using that biochar in an agricultural setting, you know, very seriously. And so we are, you know, we really think that that leads to a more durable and permanent carbon removal, but it's just as I said earlier, it's a wonderful, incredible wonder drug. It does so many great things.   Craig Macmillan  11:48  To continue, mayo what happens to the stuff that's not the carbon you said it volatilizes off, but what's its eventual fate in the environment?   Mayo Ryan  11:50  We essentially combust it and so the machine acts as its own thermal oxidizer, so everything that's not carbon gets lifted above the feedstock. The feedstock never actually catches fire all the sin gas and production cloud gases do above the feedstock and they're consumed right then and there. And so theoretically, you know, what comes out of the stack is very little heat, principally, we generate a ton of byproduct heat, but very little exhaust gases, little NOx little Sox, well under what you know, are the standards here. Everything that's as I said, Not carbon gets combusted within the chamber   Craig Macmillan  12:34  And gets broken down into less problematic. Compact.   Mayo Ryan  12:37  Exactly, yes,   Craig Macmillan  12:38  Question for you just the coolant, the biochar coolant. I'm hearing a lot about biochar. Obviously, there's a lot of people mixing up the Kool Aid. I'm guessing that your job is probably to sell the Kool Aid.   Jessica Bronner  12:49  My job is actually to educate people on what the Kool Aid is. Once they know it kind of sells itself going from there on. It's definitely breaking down the complex understanding of slow pyrolysis and biochar so if someone could understand it, who's new to the ag industry or carbon removal industry or any of that.   Craig Macmillan  13:13  So again with you, Jessica, so this material is produced, you folks are selling it to other folks selling it to different people, outlets, companies, municipalities.   Jessica Bronner  13:23  That is the future plan for now we have an offtake agreement set for this first pilot plant with Monterey Pacific. So actually, all the biochar we'll be producing in the years going forward will be going directly into the vineyards that MPI manages, which is terrific yay for Sitos, Group biochar. And then moving forward it will be available to sell to outside markets.   Craig Macmillan  13:46  What do you think those markets might be?   Mayo Ryan  13:47  I can go with that. You know, we're we're we're lucky in that biochar and wine grape vineyards is an established fact more or less. We can all stipulate the benefits of biochar in wine grapes largely due to Dr. Doug Beck and Steve's work over the last eight to 10 years. We're doubling down in the wine grape industry is is kind of a short term means of proving biochar is affecting agriculture. Next, we'll spend time educating almond and pistachio growers in the San Joaquin Valley about those same benefits. I used to work as pistachio grower relations guy for a large pistachio company. And you know, I'm convinced pistachios and biochar go hand in hand. But there are so many other uses. We can sequester carbon and concrete, you know line production for the concrete businesses one of the largest carbon emitters in the world. If we can get biochar and concrete we can significantly reduce by 20%. Perhaps the amount of lime going into concrete, we can create graphenes and graphite for use and batteries. The endless list of uses of biochar is really endless. We were starting in agriculture but there are a lot of opportunities for us as we build the business.   Jessica, are you you said you're doing the education and the outreach. You're teaching people what it is what kinds of methods tools, avenues are you using to communicate all this stuff?   Jessica Bronner  14:59  So far we've been very successful on LinkedIn. That's a great avenue for people to find out what we're doing where Mayo is every week speaking to different at different arrangements and educating people that way. With that we do a lot of public outreach. So we spoke at the Monterey Rotary Club and then the Cannery Row Rotary Club. So we had some good educational moments, we'll be having a biochar tailgate with a vineyard team coming up next beginning of next year. And then our website has a lot of information about biochar. We'll write blogs, if people have questions, they can submit questions on our website. We really want to be open book to the public and to people who are interested because educating oneself is kind of the most powerful tool that you have i We really value that and we want to create avenues for people to learn from their own standards. And then a website that we like to go to for information for the public to know about, they obviously probably already do if they know about biochar is the US biochar initiative USBI. They have a terrific website with a lot of knowledge and materials on biochar and application and agriculture and different settings.   Craig Macmillan  16:12  And just as a as a timestamp, this has been recorded in November of 2023. And so this Tailgate you mentioned, would be in 2024. For Mayo to you what what is the future look like? The big picture future do you think is going to be for this industry? This is a sounds like it's an industry are potentially a fledgling industry, maybe. But where do you see this going? You've talked about almond orchards and you've talked about municipal waste. What's the potential here on a big, big picture? You   Mayo Ryan  16:42  know, agriculture is facing a huge set of problems, which makes it just more and more difficult to meet this global demand for a secure and healthy food supply. And those problems are, you know, soil degradation and desertification, drought or moisture loss. You know, carbon emissions from agriculture is huge. We've got to fix that loss of biodiversity. And so, we believe that biochar is a way to transition conventional traditional ag into a regenerative ag set of practices, which would include things like cover cropping and minimum or no till on but but essentially at the highest level conversion from a chemical based farming regime to biological based farming regime and, and we want to facilitate that our vision of sounds embarrassing a bit, Craig, but you know, Steven, Jessica, and Alan and our wonderful operators who Swain said, Well, I'll want to sequester a million tonnes of carbon be a mega ton supplier of carbon removal by the end of 2030. It sounds crazy. When I say it, I get a bit embarrassed. But our friends in the carbon world are telling them that's not enough, we need to have much more larger ambitions, you know, we all need to be sequestering a billion tons by 2030. And we're you know, we're just a very small part of that. But that's our goal. That's what we want to have happen. That's what we're going to pursue over the next seven years is to take these plants that we have the goal of the pilot planet region, Monterey is to perfect a three machine design that will templatized and deploy throughout the Salinas, Sacramento and San Joaquin valleys, I think in my lifetime anyway, you know, I don't have to look much beyond those regions for opportunities to make biochar and sequester in soil. But that's the plan and to you know, to do our best to facilitate regenerative ag and, and those regenerative site supply chains and remove as much carbon from the atmosphere as we possibly can.   Craig Macmillan  18:24  Jessica what do you have to add to that? What? What do you see? What's your vision?   Jessica Bronner  18:28  My vision for biochar is really lead the regeneration of the earth to the soil. I mean, I recently read, or am reading the book by Paul Hawkins called regeneration and mayo knows it very well. And I encourage everyone else to go and read it if they have not. But it ultimately talks about how are we supposed to thrive on a planet that's degenerating? And what can we do to regenerate that so we can continue to sustain life? Well, not just since sustain life, but to thrive, have life thrive on this planet? So future going forward would for biochar to Excel that regeneration of the earth of agriculture of supply chains of humanity? That would be that's my big end. I'll be I'll go through this.   Craig Macmillan  19:14  That's a good goal. Let's continue with you, Jessica. We're getting close to the end here. What is one thing that you would recommend to listeners or that you'd like them to take away regarding this topic?   Jessica Bronner  19:26  I mentioned it earlier, but really is just to educate themselves on biochar and sustainability and regeneration, because there's only so much you can do from here. So he or she say, but when you actually double down and find out what it is that you're passionate about, or maybe you're not passionate about for your individual self, I think that's really powerful. Like I said before, I had never knew that I'd be excited about charcoal or about agriculture, but here I am, like, never, never going back and I really attribute that passion to education. personal education me diving in and figuring that out so that's that's my biggest encouragement for people just curious about it is to read about it dive in jump in headfirst come down a rabbit hole and drink the Kool Aid.   Craig Macmillan  20:14  How about you Mayo?   Mayo Ryan  20:16  Know what I'm gonna shamelessly crib what Jessica stains it's get involved. I mean, if you're on our website and you find that that tab and that button all over, we have a little mantra internal saying it Sitos. It's not either or it's also and we have a very limited competitive view, we don't think there are such things in, in the biochar or carbon removal world as competitors, we need lots of Sitos' we need lots of other companies in this business as many as can can get involved. And that's it. You know, Friday, we hit a record. It's the first time we were over two degrees of pre industrial temperature, a third of this year was over 1.5 degrees, which was the Paris Climate Accord. It's here it's happening. And so my suggestion and my hope is that is that people just get involved educate, as Jessica said, and, and join us in this effort to save ourselves.   Craig Macmillan  21:03  Jessica, I am going to ocme back to you, where can people find out more about you and your colleagues and the Sitos group in general?   Jessica Bronner  21:11  Our website and click the Get Involved button and you send an email directly to me and I will respond to you ASAP. You can also find us like I said on LinkedIn, we have our social media platforms on Facebook and Instagram. We're thinking about launching a YouTube channel. You can go check us out right now and find some terrific vineyard application videos of biochar have been applied to some of the McIntyre vineyards, soils. But I would say email if you want to get direct contact with us. It's our first names with our last initial at Sitos.earth it is not.com We got fancy and put a dot Earth on there. So yeah, send us an email reach out. We're happy to chat set up a call and have a conversation. Well,   Craig Macmillan  21:53  our guest today has been Mayo Ryan. He is CEO and co founder of the Sitos group and Jessica Bronner, who is the peer Marketing Communications Manager for Sitos want to thank you both for being here.   Mayo Ryan  22:05  Delighted, Craig, thank you for having us.   Jessica Bronner  22:07  It was a pleasure for sure.   Transcribed by https://otter.ai Nearly perfect transcription by https://otter.ai