Podcast appearances and mentions of josh cool

Bosses, it's callback time! After a set of fiercely talented auditions last week, Anne & Lau narrowed it down to the 5 talents they felt had something special. Manny, Aria, Josh, Nicole, and Kelly are back and ready to read. After being thrown custom directions from your hosts, these voice actors rose to the occasion, making the final decision a difficult one. Although there can only be one winner, every experience in front of an agent, producer, and casting director is valuable. You never know what kind of impression you'll leave on them, so give it your all. The final decision came down to matching Anne & Lau's preferences with the client's needs, but you'll have to tune in to find out who that is… Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Welcome everyone to the VO BOSS podcast and the Business Superpower series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and today I'm excited to bring my special guest co-host Lau Lapides to the program. Hey Lau. Lau: Hey Anne. Glad to be here. Anne: Lau, we had an amazing live audition podcast. I am so excited for how that turned out. Lau: Oh my gosh, I can't wait to see it. And oh, what a, what a great time that was. Yeah, great group. Anne: And, and our appreciation, you guys, BOSSes out there, if you've not heard it, go, make sure that you check it out. It was our first ever live audition podcast where we had, uh, gosh, 12 people live auditioning for, uh, a particular for Expedia and, uh, with feedback and everything. And today, this episode is all about the live audition callback. So we had five people calling back, and we are going to have them come back for another round of reads, and Lau and I will pick the winner. So get ready, BOSSes. And so without further ado, hopefully people are there in the audience, uh, in the chat. Um, we have the roster, which will be Nicole Fikes, Aria Lapides, Manny Cabo, Josh Wells, uh, and Kelly White. Okay. So if you guys are ready, the first one up to audition for us again is Nicole. And Nicole, we are asking you to do the same script, which is the script for Expedia, starting with, uh, our colors. And, uh, we would like you to give us your unique second take. Lau, any particular hints, casting directions, specs? Lau: Uh, I would love to see the most coziest warmest, most relaxed read you can do, Nicole. Nicole: Coziest. Warmest, most relaxed. Okay. All right. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you. Very nice. Lau: All right. Nicole: Thank you. Anne: Yeah. I'm gonna offer one little bit of redirection. Um, can I hear the end? Um, give me a little more, I, I'm gonna say a little more punch on in even more places, in more places. Um, and, and I really wanna hear finding the colors, come, bring that home to me. Um, a little bit of a, of a smile. More of a smile at the end, 'cause you got a great deal. Nicole: Yeah. Okay. And so still warm and fuzzy but just kind of a little bit more emphasis on the colors and even more places kind of line? Anne: Yeah. And you can just pick it up at so we can go find our colors. So you don't need to do the whole thing. Yeah. Nicole: Okay. So we can go find our colors in even more places knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you. All right. Lau: Super nice. Nicely done. Thank you, Nicole. Nicole: Thanks. Lau: Love it. Anne: Now, in a real audition, Lau, how -- now in terms of if people are late or they're not connecting or, you know, there's -- I'm sure there's a grace period, I mean, everybody's human. So if there are tech issues or if somebody didn't hear that they're being called back at the precise time, how much time typically would you say casting directors will wait? Lau: Um, you know, I don't know. It's not like -- I don't think it's a hard and fast rule. I think it depends on the relationship they have with whoever's sending them in, whoever's submitting them, and if they know the talent themselves. The rule of thumb, generally speaking, is like, the less they know you and then, and the less rapport they have, the less they're gonna have patience for you and the less they're gonna wait. But here's the interesting thing, and I, I wanna share this with the folks in the background, 'cause again, they're not seeing any of the tech stuff that's going on. I just received a text right now from Aria who said, hey, could you please give me a second? I need to reset it and reboot. I would say in general, people don't like waiting, so they'll skip to the next person. And you know, as a courtesy, they will come back to you most of the time because they wanna find a good person. They don't wanna -- Anne: And that's, and that's fine. And I will look, I'll make the call here if Manny is available. Uh, you know, if Aria can't get back, Okay. Um, we can certainly take Manny and wait, you know, for later to, to get Aria on, which is fine with me. Lau: That's how, that's how it would be because if we were in a paid studio space by the hour. Anne: Yeah, exactly. Lau: We don't wait, wait for anyone. We just go on to the next person. Anne: Right. Uh, because yeah, this studio's expensive, darn it. . Lau: And you know, as, as we're, as we're saying this, the talent is emailing me because I have a direct rapport with the talent and she's saying, could you please have someone else go while I'm doing the tech setup? Anne: There you go. Lau: So I don't hold you up? See, that's exactly pro stuff. Anne: Perfect. All right, Manny, welcome back. So we're looking for your unique second read. Manny: My unique second read. Anne: You were super warm the first time. Manny: Okay. Anne: So let's, uh, let's hear something different. Manny: Okay. Let's do something fun. Anne: Okay. Manny: here we go. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you. Lau, any redirection there? Lau: I have a quick redirect just because I, I'm getting to know Manny and loving your sound. Now I would love to hear you deliver this as a standup comedian. . Manny: Standup comedian. All right, that sounds good. That's fun. Here we go. Our colors have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you could save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. . Anne: Nicely done. Lau: So good. Anne: Yeah, Lau: So good. Anne: Nicely done for, for doing that without a real joke in the script. So that was good. You channeled. And what I liked about that is that you channeled, uh, the comedic into the read even though there was nothing comedic necessarily in the script. So yeah, nicely done. Thank you. Manny: Mom, I'm an artist. I'm doing artist stuff, Mom, come on. . Anne: See? There you go. Manny: Killing me. Thanks, ladies. Anne: Thank you, Manny. Anne: And, and even that little like, improv bit at the end there, nicely done. Lau: So good, so good. Anne: That's a way to leave a nice, uh, remembrance, you know, in my brain. So love that. Lau: Anne, could I make a quick point that I meant to say before, but I didn't say before? Um, I wanted to make the point to everyone who's coming in, but also anyone who's listening in that even though this is a mock audition under educational umbrella, you are actually auditioning every single time you're in front of an agent, a producer, casting, or even coaches. And it's because we're all so connected to work all the time. So case in point, I'm already thinking of work for Manny right now. I'm already thinking of potential representation for him right now because it doesn't matter that it's a, a podcast or a class or a course or a coaching. What matters is we're actually having the real connection and the real stuff. So never like mark through like a dancer might mark -- do it full out 'cause whoever you're with, may be the next person to help you work. Anne: You've planted the seed, right? Lau: Yes. Yeah. Anne: You've planted the seed, so, excellent. Yes. Aria, so wonderful to have you here. We are ready for you. Now we, so I know last time we had thrown that wrench in the, in the loop there for you. Aria: Hey, that's okay. Anne: A completely new script. Aria: Yeah. I enjoy that. Anne: And so and so now because you, you know, were really a cold read there -- Aria: Yeah. Anne: Let's give us the most to spec read, warm, non-announcery, not deliver -- uh, you know, nothing, nothing performy, and tell us that story. Lau, any additional direction? Lau: Um, yes. I would like you to do two things at once. I'd like you to care immensely about what you're talking about. And I also want you to not give a shit about it at all. . There you go. Aria: . Oh, you sort of a birch tree. Anne: That's exactly what I was looking for too, Lau, perfect. Aria: I love that. I love that. That's like my whole thing, right? I care so deeply, but I also don't care at all. Okay. Our colors. See, they have a way of finding us wherever they are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% adding a hotel or flight, so we can find our colors in even more places knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Bravo. Nicely done. Uh, way to take direction. I heard both care and not care in there at the same time. Aria: I'm good at that. Anne: Really nicely done now. Aria: Thank you. Anne: . That was the, Okay, so now that you can care and not care, uh, let's just give us uh, something completely different. A wild take from you. One more. Yeah, I got you. A wild take from you. Aria: Okay. Lau: I loved it. And also one more thing, be very careful of, I know you're not in a soundproof space right now. Be very careful of excess noise 'cause you actually clapped at the end. You did something to make noise. So just be careful of, you know, hitting something or any excess noise. Aria: Be careful of using your body, hitting something, excess noise. Got you. Echo. Our colors. They have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with the Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% adding a hotel and a flight, and even more places, you know, knowing you got a great deal. Expedia, ah, made to travel. Anne: Perfect. Let's hear that again. You missed a line. Aria: Yeah. Okay. Okay. So let's hear that again. Aria: Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever they are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places knowing that we have a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you. Lau? Lau: Yeah. I wanna make a comment about this. And again, it's like that oxymoron kind of thing. On one hand I love that choice and I loved how you, how quickly you did it. You didn't care. You just, you just, it was that improv in you. You just did it. You went 100% and I loved that. And actually you had a sort of European amorphous kind of non-real, real thing going on, which I like. Aria: Yeah. Lau: But just from an educational perspective for everyone, you wouldn't be able to do it for the most part, right? Because we are so much about particular appropriation that that authentic sound would be from somewhere and we would have to do the casting. Aria: And that's so funny that you say that 'cause I was actually originally gonna do like a Valley girl. 'Cause I was like, I feel like that would be a little bit more appropriate, at least for my age group than. Lau: No, but I think your choice was really right on in terms of the actor spirit. Anne: I think so too, in terms of making it more international. Lau: It was cool. Anne: And especially for the subject, but you're absolutely right, Lau. That's one thing that I was going to say, that maybe, you know unless you knew specifically that there was something in the specs that they were looking, and that it wasn't critical that it was, you know, from a, you know, a native speaker. Um, but I like the actor party knew that that gave that the shot for sure. Aria: Yeah. 'Cause you guys are so right, like, especially these days, like they want the authentic thing. Like I've -- even in acting, they're like, if you aren't this specific thing, I'm sorry, you can't play the role. And I'm like, it's okay, it's okay. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Lau: So that, so I loved it, but I wouldn't be able to cast it. Right. Just like, you know. Aria: I just got that noted. Yeah. I appreciate it. All right. Awesome, guys, thank you. Lau: Thank you. Anne: Thank you. All right. That was fun. Yeah, absolutely. Um, Josh. Hi Josh. Josh: Hi. How's it going? Anne: Fantastic. Thank you. Josh: Cool. Anne: Um, Lau, any, uh, direction that you wanna give before he reads? Lau: Yeah, sure. Sure. Josh, I love what you're doing. Just give me a little bit more professor that is mixed with surfboard. So let's say he's like a, a UC, you know, LA professor that goes surfing during his lunch break. Josh: Sure. Dig it. Okay. Cool. All right. Uh, Josh Wells. Lau: I think you're a little low too. Is that me? Josh: Am I little low? Lau: I feel like your volume -- Josh: Well, I'm, I'm away from the mic, but how about here? Is this better? Lau: That's better. Josh: Okay, cool. Cool. All right. Excellent. Uh, Josh Wells, non-union. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Lau: So I, I I mean, I felt like you're moving there, you're not there yet. You're sort of holding on. There's a held feeling to it. Like, I would want you to let it go. Let it go. Let it move forward. Ride the wave. Ride the wave. And be careful of the pausing too much. It has an unnatural feel to it. Josh: Dig it. Lau: So, you know what I'm saying? Anne: Yeah. I was gonna say, I, I missed the surfer, kind of channeling of the surfer. I wanted to, I felt like I needed a little more, more relaxed. Um, and then also I, I, I just, I have a personal issue with the word a because in a conversation it's usually you're adding a hotel and not A hotel. But that's, you know, that's just my ears here. Josh: Um, I've got the note before, I'll -- Anne: Yeah. So yeah, if you can give me a little more of the relaxed, you know, kind of like mm, you know, the half smile. Um, I'd like to hear that again. Josh: Okay. You got it. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you. I liked your ending. I like the different end on the tag there. Josh: Thank you. I appreciate it. Lau: Thanks Josh. You have a great cat that ate the canary sound. You had that really sort of wise cracking wise guy sound, which I really like a lot. I'd wanna play with that even more. Anne: Yeah. Lau: Yeah. Anne: And I would say, I would say for the, I still, you know, I'm in California, so it's the surfer, you know, I guess it's that me, I felt like you were almost leaning towards a little more like, uh, you know, Midwest sort of, Sam Elliott kind of relaxed. So work on the surfer. I think you've got it in you, for sure. Josh: Okay. Thank you. Appreciate that note. Anne: Yeah. Nice. I, I really like your tone. Thank you. Josh: Awesome. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Anne: Okay. Kelly White. Kelly: Hello, hello. Anne: Hi, Kelly. Lau: Hey Kelly. Kelly: Hey, how are you? Anne: Nice to see you back. Kelly: Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. Appreciate it. Anne: Awesome. So, uh, Lau, do you have any, any specific direction you'd like? Lau: Yeah, so Kelly, keep in mind that we're going for a slightly younger demographic. So as we love the richness and texture and heaviness of your sound, we really feel like you might be able to go in that direction of the 30s to even early 40s sound of like something that is the fast moving person, multitasking person, young, professional person raising young children. I know you know nothing about that. I'm joking 'cause I know Kelly well. Kelly has small, young children, so target that on a busy day. Kelly: Okay. Anne: But remember that your colors, I, I wanna feel the, I wanna feel the colors, uh, being, bringing you home. Kelly: Okay. Our colors, they have a way of binding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Lau: Can I ask a question? If this is a busy mom, a young busy mom, what does colors mean to you? To her? What does that actually mean literally? Kelly: Um, just different aspects of probably her life. Just different things that she's doing, different things she has going on. Lau: Yeah. And the idea that she also wants to escape from it. Kelly: Gotcha. Anne: And find. Lau: And the colors of the ocean. The colors of the mountains, the greenery, the islands, the -- Anne: And find herself in more places than just her home. Kelly: Got it. That's right. Lau: Explore her, her inner world. Right? Her fantasy. Welcome to Fantasy Is -- give me more Fantasy Island, I think. Kelly: Got it. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Nice. I'd like to have -- I really like the way you slowed that down and, and emphasize the colors and you brought that home. Um, and I think knowing we've got a great -- knowing we got a great deal. I'd like to hear just that last part again so we can go find our colors in even more places knowing we got a great deal. That's like your, that's like your mom, like that's your mom's secret. Like you just got a deal, you just had a coupon, and you know what, you're excited about it. And so you're sharing that with us. Okay? And, uh, let's just, just hear that one more, one more time please. Kelly: Okay. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Nice. Can I ask for one more? Can I ask for an alternate on just, just the, so we can find our colors in even more places knowing we got a great deal -- can I get an ABC read of that? That would be three different ways. Kelly: Okay. So we can go find our colors in even more places knowing we got a great deal. So we can go find our colors in even more places knowing we got a great deal. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Anne: Thank you, Kelly. Kelly: You're welcome. Thank you so much. Anne: Nicely done. Kelly: Thank you. Lau: Thank you hun. Appreciate it. Kelly: All right. Lau: All right. That's everyone. Yeah? Anne: That is everyone. Wow. You guys all did an amazing job. This is gonna be tough. Lau: Actually, I think it's gonna be easier than we think only because we kind of get and know what that client wants. And that's gonna help us deduce down who we need to be picking along who we want to be picking. So what, what, what are your top thoughts on top, top people? Who are your top, top two? Anne: Uh, my top people I am going to say, uh, is going to be Manny, Aria and Kelly . Lau: Okay. And my top people are Manny and Nicole. Okay. So we've got Manny in common there, which is a strong choice. And, and what's even stronger about Manny is, and it's genderless. Like they don't care what gender, that's fine. But they want diversity talent. And Manny is, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, Manny, I believe Latina and is bilingual and so can offer a Spanish read of this. So there's a, there's a super compelling reason why he may book this. Anne: And, and, and let's also talk about, you know, as we, as we mentioned before with our feedback, the fact that he was able to, uh, you know, take good direction, that's so, so very important, right, change up his read, which he did, uh, when asked. Also when leaving, when we asked him for the comedic read and I said, nice job, even though there's no comedic in there, he was actually able to leave us without sounding like too, like, you know, trying too desperate or trying to impress us. He did a line that was comedic that impressed me. And so I really liked the nuance of that and for me, that stood out and made him very memorable. Lau: Yeah. I mean, when he did that last mom thing, and I was like, wow, this guy is like really ready. He is ready Freddy. He is, There's no fooling around with Manny. Like, he's a super pro. And again, I'm saying this like, I don't know Manny at all. He was referred over to me last night for, uh, a VO Spanish audition that we got in from Miami. Unfortunately, he did not make that call because it was a time sensitive. So I said, and this happens all the time, I said, hey, I would love for you to come on our podcast. We're doing mock auditions today. He came on today in good spirit that he missed the actual audition, but not, not any fault of his. He just didn't, you know, he came in late and then came in today, and now I'm thinking, how can I work with Manny? Anne: Sure, sure. Absolutely. Lau: See, that's the way life is. So, Okay. So he's my top choice then. Anne: Yeah. He's my top choice too. And, and I'm gonna say, you know, my other picks, you know, again, I had for demographic, uh, you know, Aria, I love the voice, I love the demographic. I think that she's, she's, uh, great with that. She did give a complete different read um, you know, on either one. I liked her acting instincts there. Um, and so again, that sometimes, guys, it, it, it can turn out to be like just these tiny little things that can separate, you know, who we decide and not. And Kelly I liked because we asked her to do a lot there at the end too, and she came through with her three different reads, which I liked, uh, a whole lot. Uh, in terms of demographic too, I thought that she was appropriate. Um, I wanted, I wanted a little younger sound though that. Lau: I did too. Wonderful. I felt -- that felt just a little square, a little boxy for me. Like I, it had, again, she's got a good corporate feel. She's got a good businessy feel. Um, I wanted a-- I wanted more, it was a very staccato type of reads. I wanted more flowy-ness to it. I wanted more, more hangout energy. And also Aria was terrific, no question. I felt she's got age and room to grow. I thought she was a little too young for this one somehow. Anne: Okay. No, I would totally agree with you on that. Lau: But again, we're splitting hairs, you know? We're like going, okay, we're looking at union and non-union status, we're looking at diversity, we're looking at age, we're looking at all these different factors that separate people when really all of these people could be booked on this. Anne: Yeah. And just, you know, other words, you know, like for Nicole, Nicole really has that warm read down. I'll tell you. She really does. You know, I don't wanna leave this without feedback for all of, all of you. Um, because Nicole, you have that, that warm read. And that's something I think when you've got it, you know, go for it. When there are auditions that call for that warmth, go for them, because that seems to be a signature style for you. And then I'll, I'll say a little bit about let's see, who else was it that -- Josh. Right? Lau: And can I just say about Nicole before you leave that? See, okay. Again, listeners, you don't know what's in our head and how it's shifting so fast. Nicole was actually my first pick for this. But the, but the age, the diversity, diversity factor came in and this factor and that. See, and it shifted the game. It has nothing to do with, can Nicole do this job? Is she great and right for it? Of course she is. But there were other factors. Anne: I think everyone, every one of you could have done this job, No question. Um, and now we just talk about different factors in terms of demographic. So keep that in mind, guys, when you, when you let things get you down and you think that, oh, they didn't pick me, um, it has a lot to do with things other than just your voice or your performance. And also it could be like, well, I've worked with, uh, you know, I've worked with Manny before, and I just know he's gonna come through and give us whatever we want. Or, you know, I've worked with Nicole before, and you know, or my cousin knows Nicole and, and, and really recommends her or whatever it is, guys, don't let the fact that you don't get the gig, you know, you know, gets you down because there's so many things, so many, many factors here. Um, and like I say, all five of you I think could have done this job well. And what has shifted us, I think, is again, going back to what the, what the client wants, what we think is best for the brand. And always guys, I think if you can, can look up the brand. At this point, you've had some time with the script. Um, if you don't know the brand, go look at the brand. Look them up, Google's your friend, uh, find out who they're, who are they marketing to, What does their brand look like on the web? And try to really learn as much as you can about that brand because you're speaking on behalf of the brand. Not only are you telling the story of the script, but you're also speaking on behalf of the brand. So knowing -- the more you know, right, the more you know, uh, I think the more educated you are, the better, the better you're going to be. And sometimes, you know, it just, it comes down to, you know, splitting hairs like Lau said before. Lau: Yeah. And if you, even if you go, like, I just used this example the other day. Even if you go into like an Apple store and you're looking for a new Mac, and you go on the Mac, and you sort of test it out, you're going, okay, what's the capability of all this, all these programs? What is the this, what is the that? What does it look like? Is it easy to use? Do I like this pro -- da da da? What am I willing to pay for it? It's not that the Mac itself is not something that you could buy and love and enjoy and could work well. It's just the difference between this $1000 Mac and this $2,000 Mac, and what are the differences? So don't discount yourself or devalue yourself like, they don't like me, I'm not good enough. Whatever. No, you just may not have a quality or a program, if you will, that someone else has that we need for the job. Anne: And, and as we mentioned before, you know, there's a lot of, you know, can you sound younger? Right? That kind of thing. Like people, there's no way it, you know -- I may have a younger sounding voice given my age, but there's no way I'm going to sound millennial. Um, you know what I mean? And so like sometimes it's beyond your control also. Um, if they're looking for a gravitas, if they're looking for a texture and you don't -- I have a very clear voice. Right? If they want something that has more texture in it or rasp in it, that wouldn't be me. Um, but just knowing that can help you to just continue, I think always maintaining -- you know, be the best actor you can be because the things that you can control sometimes, like your voice, like the tone and the texture, and you know, there's lots of things you can do with vocal placement, with characters, but when it comes to this type of a read, where we're looking for authenticity, you know, it's, it's, we don't need you to go into character mode necessarily. Um, but we need authenticity. And that, that is, I think the, the, the thing that you can really concentrate on and practice and get better at as an actor. I think that's so important. Lau: And know knowing that, that self knowing of, of who you are and your brand, what your best qualities are, what your niche is, what is your niche market -- that honesty, that truthfulness will only set you free over time because it will free up a lot of your time so that you're not focusing on jobs that you're simply not gonna get because they can get the authentic read when that, you may not fall into that category. Just focus in those areas that are really your strong suits. Anne: Absolutely. Well then I think we've declared our winner, Lau. Lau: Woo. Anne: So congratulations to Manny. Lau: Yay, Manny. Anne: Um, you are our, you are our voice for Expedia. So congratulations, and thanks to all of you that came in and auditioned in our first podcast. Thanks to you guys who came back for the callbacks. I hope that you've gotten some value out of these, uh, two podcasts, and, uh, we hope to keep them coming your way. I think this could wrap up our episode. Lau: I love it. I mean, I love it. I mean, look at this, in less -- in just about two hours, little over two hours, we went through all the tech glitches, all the directions, all the preliminaries of auditions, the breakdown into the short list, then all the way up to the person who's gonna book the role. Anne: And you heard our brains, you heard us thinking and speaking out loud and casting. And so hopefully you all have a better understanding of what it takes to get cast and what's behind the casting, the casting glass. And, uh, yeah, you guys were all amazing. I really, really appreciate it. So with that being said, guys, I'm gonna give a big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can connect and network like BOSSes. Find out more at ipDTL.com. Lau, you're amazing. BOSSes out there, you're amazing. Thank you so much. Have a -- an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Lau: Kudos to everyone. Thanks so much. Have a great weekend. Bye. Anne: Bye. Congrats. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Show Notes:Links:MicromortNoblesse obligeJosh's dotfilesGitHub Code SpacesFull Transcript:Ben:Yeah. I've been holding out for the new MacBook Pros. The M1 is pretty tempting, but I want whatever comes next. I want the 16-inch new hotness that's apparently supposed to be launching in November, but I've been waiting for it so patiently for so long now.Josh:Will they have the M2?Ben:Yeah, either or that or M1X. People are kind of unsure what the odds are.Starr:Why do they do that? Why did they make an M1 if they can't make an M2? Why do they have to keep... You just started, people. You can just have a normal naming scheme that just increments. Why not?Josh:M1.1?Ben:That would be awesome.Starr:Oh, Lord.Josh:Yeah, it would.Ben:M1A, Beachfront Avenue.Starr:So last week we did an Ask Me Anything on Indie Hackers, and that was a lot of fun.Josh:It was a lot of fun.Starr:I don't know. One of the most interesting questions on there was some guy was just like, "Are you rich?" I started thinking about it. I was like, "I literally have no idea." It reminded me of when I used to live in New York briefly in the '90s or, no, the early '00s. There was a Village Voice article in which they found... They started out with somebody not making very much money, and they're like, "Hey, what is rich to you?" Then that person described that. Then they went and found a person who had that level of income and stuff and they asked them, and it just kept going up long past the point where... Basically, nobody ever was like, "Yeah, I'm rich."Josh:Yeah. At the end, they're like, "Jeff Bezos, what is rich? What is rich to you?"Starr:Yeah.Josh:He's like, "Own your own star system."Starr:So, yeah, I don't know. I feel like I'm doing pretty good for myself because I went to fill up my car with gas the other day and I just didn't even look at the price. The other day, I wanted to snack, so I just got a whole bag of cashews, and I was just chowing down on those. I didn't need to save that. I could always get another bag of cashews.Ben:Cashews are my arch nemesis, man. I can't pass up the cashews. As far as the nut kingdom, man, they are my weakness.Starr:I know. It's the subtle sweetness.Ben:It's so good. The buttery goodness.Starr:Yeah, the smoothness of the texture, the subtle sweetness, it's all there.Ben:That and pistachios. I could die eating cashews and pistachios.Josh:There you go. I like pistachios.Ben:Speaking of being rich, did you see Patrick McKenzie's tweet about noblesse oblige?Josh:No. Tell me.Ben:Yeah, we'll have to link it up in the show notes. But, basically, the idea is when you reach a certain level of richness, I guess, when you feel kind of rich, you should be super generous, right? So noblesse oblige is the notion that nobility should act nobly. If you have been entrusted with this respect of the community and you're a noble, then you ought to act a certain way. You got to act like a noble, right? You should be respectful and et cetera. So Patio was applying this to modern day, and he's like, "Well, we should bring this back," like if you're a well-paid software developer living in the United States of America, you go and you purchase something, let's say a coffee, that has basically zero impact on your budget, right? You don't notice that $10 or whatever that you're spending. Then just normalize giving a 100% tip because you will hardly feel it, but the person you're giving it to, that'll just make their day, right? So doing things like that. I was like, "Oh, that's"-Josh:Being generous.Ben:Yeah, it's being generous. Yeah. So I like that idea.Josh:That's cool.Ben:So-Starr:So it's okay to be rich as long as you're not a rich asshole.Ben:Exactly. Exactly. That's a good way to bring it forward there, Starr.Starr:There you go. I don't know. Yeah. I think there's some historical... I don't know. The phrase noblesse oblige kind of grates at me a little bit in a way that I can't quite articulate in this moment, but I'll think about that, and I will get back with you.Josh:Wait. Are you saying you don't identify as part of the nobility?Starr:No.Ben:I mean, I think there's a lot of things from the regency period that we should bring back, like governesses, because who wants to send your child to school in the middle of a COVID pandemic? So just bring the teacher home, right?Starr:Yeah. That's pretty sexist. Why does it have to be gendered? Anyway.Ben:Okay, it could be a governor, but you might get a little misunderstanding. All of a sudden, you've got Jay Inslee showing up on your doorstep, "I heard you wanted me to come teach your kids."Josh:I don't know. I'll just take an algorithm in the home to teach my kids, just entrust them to it.Starr:Yeah. Oh, speaking of bringing things back, I told y'all, but I'll tell our podcast listeners. On Sunday, I'm driving to Tacoma to go to somebody's basement and look at a 100-year old printing press to possibly transport to Seattle and put in my office for no good reason that I can think of. It just seems to be something that I'm doing.Josh:Do you like that none of us actually asked you what you were intending to do with it? I was like, "Yeah, just let me know when you need to move it. I'm there." I just assumed you were going to do something cool with it, but ... Yeah.Starr:I appreciate that. I appreciate the support. I'm going to make little zines or something. I don't know.Josh:Yeah. If I get a lifetime subscription to your zine-Starr:Okay, awesome.Josh:... that would be payment.Starr:Done. Done.Josh:Cool.Ben:Yeah, sign me up, too. I'll be there.Starr:Well, I appreciate that.Ben:I mean, who could resist that invitation, right, because you get to... If you get to help with moving that thing, you get to see it, you get to touch it and play with it, but you don't have to keep it. It's somebody else's problem when you're done with the day, so sounds great to me.Starr:There you go. Well, I mean, if you read the forums about these things, this is one of the smaller ones, so people are just like, "Ah, no big deal. No big deal. It's okay." But I was happy to hear that there's no stairs involved.Ben:That is the deal-breaker. Yeah.Josh:Yeah. But it-Ben:If you ever get the friend helping you to move their piano, you always ask, "Okay, how many flights of steps," right?Starr:Yeah. Oh, I just thought of something I could do with it. I could make us all nice business card to hand out to nobody.Ben:Because we're not going anywhere.Josh:I just think of my last six attempts at having business cards. They're all still sitting in my closet, all six boxes of-Starr:I know. People look at you like, "What, really, a business card? What?"Josh:Yeah, like all six generations.Starr:Yeah.Ben:I hand out one or two per year. Yeah, just random people and like, "Hey, here's my phone number." It's an easy way to give it to somebody.Josh:Just people on the street?Ben:Exactly. Like a decent fellow, "Here you go." Thank you.Josh:Yeah.Starr:It's like, "I've got 1000 of these. I got to justify the cost somehow."Josh:We got to move these.Starr:We could start invoicing our customers by snail mail. I could print a really nice letterhead.Ben:I think we have a few customers who would be delighted to receive a paper invoice from us because then they would have an excuse to not pay us for 90 days.Starr:Yeah.Josh:Isn't owning a printing press like owning a truck, though? Once people know you have it, everyone wants to borrow it.Starr:It's going to be pretty hard to borrow for a 1000-pound piece of iron.Josh:Well, they're going to want to come over and hang out in your basement and do their printing. This is the Pacific Northwest, like-Starr:It's their manifestos.Josh:Yeah. They got to print their manifestos, lists of demands.Starr:They don't want the establishment at Kinko's to be able to see.Josh:Right.Ben:I don't know. It's got to put you on a special kind of watch list, though, if you have a printing press in your home, right? All of a sudden, some people are really interested in what you're up to.Josh:It's like a legacy watch list.Ben:I'm just flashing back to, yeah, in the 1800s when cities, towns would get all-Starr:There you go.Josh:Well, yeah, because they're like-Ben:The mob would come out and burn down the printing press building and stuff.Josh:If you wanted to be a propagandist back then, you had to buy a printing press and then you get put on a watch list. That just never went away. They're still looking for those people. They just don't find as many of them these days.Starr:Yeah. It's so inefficient. It's not the super efficient way of getting the word out, though, I hear, unless you want to be one of those people handing out leaflets on the side of the road.Josh:Well, you could paper windshields in parking lots.Starr:Oh, there you go. Yeah.Josh:Yeah, that's how they used to do it.Starr:No, look at my beautifully hand-crafted leaflet that you're going to throw in the gutter.Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Ben:I think you just settled on what your next adventure's going to be after Honeybadger. You're ready to put this business aside and focus on printing up flyers for your local missing cat.Starr:There you go. There you go. Band flyers, that's big business.Josh:But you could get into fancy paper. That's a whole thing up here. It's pretty cool, actually.Starr:Yeah. I don't know. Really, I was like, "Oh, it'd be cool to have a big thing to tinker with." I'm learning about myself that I like having just a big physical project going on, and I'm pretty... Like, I built this backyard office, and that took up two years of my time. Ever since then, I don't have a big physical thing to work on, so I'm thinking this might fill that niche, that niche, sorry. I read a thing that's like don't say niche, Americans. Niche.Ben:I don't know, Starr. Maybe you should think of the children and then think about 50 years from now when you're dead and Ida's cleaning out the house and she's all like, "Why is there this printing press?"Starr:Oh, there you go.Josh:Have to move it.Starr:They'll just sell it with the house.Ben:There you go.Starr:Yeah. I mean, the funny thing is, is that it is wider than the doorway, so I would either have to dissemble it partially or take out the door. I put the door in, so I know how to take it out, so there is a good chance the door's coming out because I have less chance of messing something up if I do that one. But we'll see.Ben:Echo that.Starr:Well, thank you.Josh:You should've put one of those roll-up doors in there.Starr:I should've, yeah.Josh:Those are cool.Starr:What was I thinking?Josh:You really did not plan ahead for this.Starr:Yeah. I mean, walls are really only a couple of thin pieces of plywood, and you can just saw through it.Josh:Just a small refactor.Starr:Yeah.Josh:Yeah.Starr:And that would-Josh:Did y'all see that someone listened to every episode of this podcast in a row?Starr:I know. I feel so bad. I feel so bad for them.Josh:Speaking of-Starr:We're sorry. We're so sorry.Ben:I was feeling admiration. I'm like, "Wow, that's impressive," like the endurance of it.Starr:I just think we would've made different decisions.Ben:I don't know. But not-Josh:Maybe it's pretty good. I haven't gone back and gone through it all and never will, but-Ben:Well, I mean, not only did they say they listened to every episode, but then they were eager for more. They were like, "When are you getting done with your break?" So I guess-Starr:There you go.Ben:... that net it was positive, but-Josh:We must not be too repetitive.Ben:Must not.Starr:Stockholm syndrome.Josh:We're sorry.Ben:Well...Starr:I'm sorry. I don't have anything informative to add, so I'm just going to be shit-posting this whole episode.Ben:Well, I've had an amazing week since we last chatted. I kept reflecting on how I couldn't remember anything that I did over the past whatever months. Well, this past week, I can remember a whole bunch of things that I did. I've been crazy busy and getting a bunch of little things knocked out. But today, today was the capstone of the week because I rolled over our main Redis cluster that we use for all of our jobs, all of the incoming notices and whatevers. Yeah, rolled over to a new Redis cluster with zero downtime, no dropped data, nobody even noticed. It was just smooth as-Starr:Oh my God.Josh:I saw that.Starr:Awesome.Ben:It's going pretty good.Starr:Just like butter?Ben:Just like butter.Starr:They slid right out of that old Redis instance and just into this new... Is it an AWS-managed type thing?Ben:Yeah, both of them were. They all went on the new one, but... Yeah.Josh:It's, what, ElastiCache?Ben:Yep. Smooth like a new jar of Skippy.Josh:I saw that you put that in our ops channel or something.Ben:Yeah. Yeah, that's the topic in our ops channel.Josh:So it's the subject or the topic, yeah. We're making ops run, yeah, like a jar of Skippy.Starr:Why isn't that our tagline for our whole business?Ben:I mean, we can change it.Starr:I don't know why that's making me crack up so much, but it is.Josh:Skippy's good stuff.Starr:Oh my gosh.Josh:Although we-Ben:Actually-Josh:... usually go for the Costco natural brand these days.Ben:Well, we go for the Trader Joe's all-natural brand that you have to actually mix every time you use it. I prefer crunchy over creamy, so, actually, my peanut butter's not that smooth, but... You know.Josh:Yeah.Ben:It's okay. But, yeah, I love our natural peanut butter, except for the whole churning thing, but you can live with that.Starr:We're more of a Nutella family.Ben:Ooh, I do love a Nutella.Josh:Ooh, Nutella.Ben:Mm-hmm (affirmative), that's good stuff.Josh:We made pancakes the other day, and I was putting Nutella on pancakes. I did this thing, like I made this... We have one of those griddles, like an electric griddle, and so I made this super long rectangular pancake, and then I spread Nutella on the entire thing, and then I rolled it so that you have this-Starr:You know what it's called, Josh.Josh:What is it called?Starr:That's called a crepe.Josh:So it's a crepe, but it's made out of a pancake.Starr:It's a Texas crepe.Ben:Texas crepe.Josh:Yeah, a Texas-Starr:A Texas crepe.Ben:Yes.Josh:Is it really a Texas crepe because that's... Yeah, so, I-Starr:Oh, no, I just made that up.Ben:That sounds perfect, yeah.Josh:Well, it is now.Ben:Yeah, it is now.Josh:It is now, and I highly recommend it. It's pretty amazing.Ben:Throw some Skippy on there and, man, now it's a... That's awesome.Josh:Peanut butter's also good on pancakes.Starr:That's why people listen to us, for our insights about business.Ben:Yeah, there was this one time, speaking of pancakes and peanut butter...Josh:How did we get on pancakes? Like, oh, yeah, ops.Ben:This one time, I went over to dinner at some person's house, and I didn't know what dinner was going to be, but we got there and it was breakfast for dinner, which I personally love. That's one of my favorites.Starr:I knew that about you.Ben:So they're like, "Oh, I'm sorry. Hope you don't think it's weird, but we're having breakfast for dinner." I'm like, "No, no, I love it." So eggs and bacon and waffles, and so I'm getting my waffle and I'm like, "Do you have some peanut butter," and they're like, "Oh my goodness, we thought you would think that was way too weird, and so we didn't have the peanut butter." They whipped it out from in the counter. It's like, "Oh, shew, now we can have our peanut butter, too." I'm like, "Oh, yeah, peanut butter on waffles, yeah."Josh:Everyone had their hidden peanut butter.Ben:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Josh:Yeah.Starr:And that's how you level up a friendship.Ben:There you go. So, yeah, the week was good. The week was good. Bugs got fixed, things got deployed, and, yeah, just a whole-Josh:Yeah, you had a bunch of PRs and stuff for little things, too, which-Ben:Yeah. And got some practice with the whole delegating thing, got Shava doing some stuff, too. So, yeah, just all-around super productive week.Josh:Nice. I got Java to run in a Docker container, so my week's going pretty good.Ben:And that took you all week?Starr:What do those words mean? I don't...Josh:Yeah.Starr:Was your audio cutting out? I don't know. I just heard a bunch of things I don't understand.Josh:Well, for your own sake, don't ask me to explain it.Starr:Yeah, it's like better not looked at.Josh:Yeah.Ben:Why would you subject yourself to that sort of torture, Josh?Josh:Oh, well, because running Java on an M1 Mac is even worse.Starr:Oh my Lord.Josh:Well, actually, running it, period. But, yeah, like just our Java package. I mean, I've spent half this podcast ranting about our packaging, so I don't need to get too deep into it. But every time I release this thing, it's like it just doesn't work because I've forgotten my... I've changed my system, and Java and Maven package repository are just like that. So I figure if I can make some sort of reproduceable development environment using Docker, then in two years everything will just be smooth as a jar of Skippy.Ben:Skippy. Yeah, yeah.Starr:Well, I had a chance to-Josh:I reckon.Starr:I had a chance to dig into some numbers, which is one of my favorite things to do, and so... I don't know. There was this question that was just bothering me, which was... Well, let me just back up. So we've had some success, as you guys know, in the past year. We've almost doubled our rate of new user sign-ups, not new user sign-ups, like conversion to paid users. We've doubled our paid user conversion numbers, rate, whatever you call it. And so, obviously, revenue from users has gone up as well, but since we are a... Our plans are basically broken down by error rates, right? So what happens when people upgrade is they get too many errors for their plan. It says, "Hey, you should upgrade if you want to keep sending us errors," and they do.Starr:I had this weird situation where it's like I wasn't sure... In our system, revenue from users was coming just from whatever plan they picked when they signed up, and so I was wondering, "Well, what if they sign up, and then a week later they upgrade? That's going to be counted under upgrade revenue instead of new user revenue," which, really, it really kind of should be. So I got to digging, and I found that it doesn't really make that big of a difference. Some people do upgrade pretty quickly after converting, but they don't... It's not really enough to really change things.Josh:Yeah.Starr:Then, also, just sort of offhand, I took a little sneak peek. I've been running this experiment to see if lowering our error quota for our basic, our free plan, it would increase conversions. So I took a little sneak peek at the data. It's too soon to know for sure, but so far the conversion rate, I think, is going to end up being higher, which is what I would expect, so that's good, and-Josh:Nice.Starr:Yeah. And when we're done, I'm going to look at sign-ups just to make sure that they are still in line.Ben:Yeah. Anecdotally, I've seen a smaller window from trial to paid conversion. Well, not trial, but freemium to paid conversion. I've seen people who are signing up, getting on the basic plan, and then within some short time period they're actually going to a team plan.Josh:Oh, that's good to know.Ben:That's happening more often than it was, so... Yeah. So that's-Josh:Cool.Ben:I'm just saying the same thing Starr said but without real data.Josh:Yeah.Starr:Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah, we need a little bit more time to see how things pan out, too, because it's... One thing I figured out that I will share with our readers, our readers, I'm used to doing the blog posts, I'll share with our listeners that I figured out that you really have to pay attention to, on free plans especially, is comparing conversion rates between time periods. So if you make a change and then you wait for a month of data to come in and you're like, "Okay, let's look at the conversion rate for the past month after the change with the conversion rate for the time period before the change," that is really an apples to oranges comparison because on the one hand you've had people who have maybe had a year to upgrade versus people who've had a month to upgrade. So you have to be really careful to make it apples to apples, right, where you only compare... If you have a month worth of users on one side, you compare it to a month worth of users on the other side, and you only count the conversions that happened in that time period.Josh:Makes sense.Starr:Yeah. So, anyway, that's just my little freebie data analysis thing for our listeners.Josh:We should have Starr's weekly data science tip.Starr:Starr's data corner.Josh:Yeah.Ben:Love it.Josh:Yeah. We could move the podcast to segments. We've never done segments. We could introduce segments if we need to spice things up on FounderQuest.Ben:Yeah. Totally. Well, speaking of spicing things up, I had a brilliant idea this morning.Starr:Oh, I want to hear it.Ben:Yeah. So one of the things that I keep an eye on is how much we spend on hosting because that's a good chunk of our expenses. We always want to make more money, and one way to make more money is to have fewer expenses. So I had this brilliant idea on how to cut expenses. We can chop our AWS bill in half by just not running everything redundant.Starr:There you go.Josh:Brilliant.Starr:Would you say the AWS is the sixth Honeybadger employee?Ben:Yeah, pretty much.Josh:Yes. That's a good way to put it, actually.Starr:Yeah.Josh:Yeah.Ben:Well, in the early days, before we were paying ourselves a full salary, I remember we budgeted 25% for Starr, 25% for Ben, 25% for Josh, and 25% for hosting.Josh:Yeah.Ben:Yeah, I don't think we ever exceeded the 25%, which is good. That would be a bit high. So, yeah, AWS is like our sixth employee.Starr:Yeah, it's funny because do we even have other expenses?Josh:No.Ben:I mean, salaries is definitely the biggest one, and our health insurance is not cheap either.Starr:Yeah.Ben:Advertising.Starr:I was thinking like marketing, advertising. Yeah.Ben:Yeah. Advertising and marketing, that's the next one.Starr:That's the next 25%.Josh:Can we make AWS our seventh and eighth employee, too?Ben:Eventually may. Yeah, I did some... Oh. Oh. So I told you my great success that I had this morning. Well, your comment just now about AWS made me think about the one failure, just amazingly huge failure that I had also this week, migrating a bunch of data from Redis to DynomoDB. So we have this situation where it's one of those seemed like a good idea at the time kind of thing where we're doing a bunch of counting of people and individuals that hit errors, and we're counting that in Redis. I'm like, "Okay, great," because Redis has this INCRBY and it's easy and it's atomic and, boom, you're done, and I just never paid much attention to it until a few weeks ago, and I was like, "Yo, you know what? That's actually a lot of data in there, and we're keeping that forever, and so it's probably better to put it someplace that's not Redis." So I'm like, "Ah, I know. I'll do DynamoDB because it has an increment thing and...Josh:Yeah.Ben:So I put a table together, and I wrote a migration script, and I migrated a bunch of data. It took two days. It's great. Everything is beautiful. Had buckets of data inside DynomiteDB, and then I went to go query it, and I'm like, "Oh, I can't query it that way because I don't have the right index." Well, that sucks. All right. So you can't create a local index on DynomiteDB without recreating the table. I'm like, "Okay, well, that sucks. I just lost two days worth of data migration but oh well." So dump the table, recreated it with the index, and started redoing the data migration, and I'm like, "Yeah, it might take two days, no problem." So I check on it every half-day or so, and it's not going to be getting done after two days. Three days go by, and I'm checking the work backlog, and I was like, "It's just flat."Ben:Turns out because of that local index, now Dynamo can't really write fast enough because the way they do the partition throttling and stuff because we have some customers who have huge chunks of data. So their partitions are too big for Dynamo to write very quickly. Hot partition keys is the problem. So I just gave up. I'm like, "All right, fine." Drop the table again, recreated it, and now we're just double writing so that, eventually, given six months from now or so, it'll be there and I can replace that thing in Redis.Josh:Nice.Ben:So this is my life, the ups and the downs. So, yeah.Josh:And just waiting six months.Ben:And just waiting six months.Josh:Yeah. That's funny, but that is kind of a pattern in the business. In some cases, we need to just wait for the data to populate itself, and we just have to basically wait our retention period because data tends to turnover and then we can drop the old database or whatever.Ben:Yeah. Yep. But, luckily, nobody noticed my big fail, so it's all good. It didn't impact the customers.Josh:I didn't notice.Ben:So, yeah, busy weekend.Starr:I noticed, but I didn't say anything because I wanted to be nice.Ben:Thank you, Starr. Appreciate that.Starr:Yeah, I [inaudible].Josh:Starr was over there just quietly shaking her head.Ben:Just judging. Just judge-Starr:No, sorry.Ben:So, Josh, I'm going to get back to this Java thing because I'm curious. I remember, I don't know, a year ago or something, we're kind of like, "Maybe we should just not when it comes to Java anymore." So I'm curious what prompted this renewed activity to do a new release.Josh:Well, I don't know. I figured... I don't know. Didn't we say we were just not going to do any releases?Ben:Yeah, it just-Josh:It's not high on my list of development. We're not spending a bunch adding stuff to it, but there are dependency updates that have been getting merged in. I merged the Dependabot PRs and stuff. There's something else. There might be some small PR or something that someone submitted that was sitting there on release, and I just can't handle just unreleased code sitting on the pane. So it's just one of those things that's been sitting on my backlog halfway down the list just gnawing at me every week, so I figured I'd dive in and at least get some sort of quick release, relatively quick release process down so we can just continue to release dependency updates and stuff, like if there's a security update or something, so...Ben:Yeah.Josh:Some people still do use it, so I want to make sure they're secure.Ben:Make sure they're happy. Yeah.Josh:Yeah. But, yeah, that's a good point. We are not treating all platforms as equal because we just don't have the resource, so we need to focus on the stuff that actually is making us money.Ben:Yeah. Yeah, it's tough when very few of our customers are actually using that for it to get a whole lot of priority.Josh:That said, we have already put a lot into it, so as far as I know, it works well for the people that have used it.Starr:So are y'all encouraging our customers to do more Java?Josh:Yes, switch to Java. Then switch to SentryBen:Ride a wave.Josh:... or something.Ben:So I've been contemplating this new laptop showing up, right, whenever Apple finally releases it and I get to get my hot little hands on it. I've been thinking, well, the one big downside to getting a new laptop is getting back to a place where you can actually work again, right, getting all your things set up. Some people are smart, like Josh, that have this DOT file, this repo, on GitHub, and they can just clone that, and they're off to the races. I'm not that smart. I always have to hand-craft my config every time I get a new machine. But I'm thinking-Josh:Oh. Take the time.Ben:So, yeah, I'm not looking forward to that part, but GitHub has released Codespaces, and so now I'm thinking, "Ooh, I wonder if I could get all our repos updated so that I could just work totally in the cloud and just not even have a development set-up on my machine." Probably not, but it's a fun little fantasy.Josh:Well, then you could have any little... You could work on your iPad.Ben:Yeah.Josh:Yeah.Ben:Yeah, I don't even need a laptop. Then I could save the company money. That's brilliant, Josh.Josh:Yeah. You could work at the library.Starr:Yeah. It's like, "So your main ops guy, I see he's primarily working from a five-year-old iPad."Ben:At a library.Starr:In a library.Josh:An iMac.Starr:When he gets paged, he has to run to the nearest Starbucks and get that wifi.Josh:Yeah. I got to say, having your DOT files all ready to go and all that is pretty good. Also, I've got my Brewfile, too, so all of my Homebrew stuff is automated in that.Ben:Well, that's clever. I never even thought of that.Josh:It does make it very quick to bootstrap a new machine.Ben:Yeah. Maybe I should take this as initiative to actually put my stuff into DOT files repo and get to that point.Josh:Careful, though, because you might... I've had four computers between your current one and now, so you might end up switching more often because it's easier to do it.Ben:Appreciate that warning. That's good.Josh:Yeah. Speaking of the M1s, I love the M1 MacBook Air that I have. But the battery has been... I don't know what happened, but the battery was fantastic, I don't know, first few months. Ever since then, it's been kind of like it hasn't been lasting. I've been surprised at how fast it's draining, and I go and look at, whatever, the battery health stuff, and it says that health is down to 86% and the condition says it's fair, which does not make me feel warm and fuzzy.Josh:It has 50 cycles, so I think it might be defective, and that sucks because otherwise this machine is maybe one of the best Macs I've had. I guess... Yeah. I've had a few compatibility issues with the architecture, but it's not too bad. I mean, I'm not a Java developer at least, so...Ben:Yeah, I think you need to take that in for a service because that is way soon for that kind of degradation.Josh:Yeah. I might need to do something.Ben:That's a bummer.Josh:Yeah. I don't know. I might have to ship it in because I think our local Portland Apple Store is shuttered currently.Ben:All those protests?Josh:Yeah. It's got eight fences around it and stuff. Downtown Portland's a little rough these days.Starr:Yeah.Ben:Well, I mean, you can always take the trip out to Seattle.Josh:Yeah. Oh, yeah. Or there's other... I forget. There's an Apple Store that's not too far outside of Portland. It's where I bought this, so I could take it down there.Starr:Yeah. I'm sad now because I bought my second MacBook from that store in Portland.Josh:Yeah? It's a good store.Ben:Speaking of you coming out to Seattle, I was thinking the other day that maybe we should do a company-wide get-together sometime soon. Be fun to see everybody again in-person.Josh:It would be. Now that we're all vaxxed, we're all super vaxxed. I don't know that Starr is even down for that, though. I'm just looking at Starr.Starr:I don't know. Like, I-Josh:You don't look like you're too stoked on that idea.Starr:I don't know. I'm just-Josh:What with Delta lurking.Starr:The problem is, Josh, is that you have not been reading nursing Twitter.Josh:Uh-huh (affirmative).Starr:So I don't know. Yeah, it's doable. Currently, I think the CDC just released a thing that said vaccine efficiency of preventing COVID infections... It's very good still at preventing bad, I don't know, disease, health problems, whatever, keeping people out of the hospital. It's very good at that. With Delta, it's about 65% effective at preventing infections, and so if you get infected, you can transmit it to other people.Josh:Right.Starr:Yeah. So it's not impossible. It's just like we're just back to this fricking calculus where every possible social interaction you just have to run it through your spreadsheet and your risk analysis and... Ugh.Josh:Yeah.Ben:It's like, "Are you worthy of the hassle? No. Sorry, can't make it."Starr:Yeah. Yeah. It's like, "Okay, so what's the probability that meeting with you is going to send my child to the hospital? Okay, that's low enough. Sure."Josh:Yeah.Starr:It's just such a weird world.Josh:Wouldn't it be funny if when you get into your car in the morning, it reads out the probability of you dying in a car accident?Starr:Oh, yeah. Do you know about millimorts?Josh:No.Starr:Oh, you should go Google millimorts. A millimort is a one in a million chance that you will die, and so there's tables and stuff that you can find online that have different activities and what the number of millimorts is about them. So you can compare, and you can be like, "Okay, so going skydiving has this many millimorts as driving so many miles in a motorcycle."Josh:That's awesome. Okay, we have to link this in the show notes because I want to remember to look this up-Starr:Okay. I'll go find it.Josh:... so that I can depress people.Starr:I think there was a New York Times article, too.Ben:Yeah, I totally have to see this because I just signed up for a motorcycle training course and I'm going to get my endorsements so that I know exactly what kind of risks... Though that's probably part of the course, where they try to scare you out of actually getting your endorsement. They probably...Josh:By the way, I'm really glad my morbid humor or my morbid joke landed because for a minute there-Starr:Oh, I'm sorry, it's a micromort.Josh:Oh, a micromort. Okay.Starr:I was like, "Isn't milli 1000?"Josh:Minimort, like-Starr:Milli is 1000.Josh:Yeah.Starr:Yeah, that grated at me. I know. My old chemistry teachers are just giving me an F right now.Ben:Yeah, I got to see that.Josh:Well, I'm sure you'll be all right, Ben. I mean, the risk of a motorcycle is much higher than a car, but you just can't think about that all the time because the fun... I'm sure the fun is much...Ben:[inaudible].Josh:It's worth it.Ben:It's worth every hazard. Yeah.Josh:Yeah. The risk is worth the reward.Ben:Yesterday, I just hit 250 miles on the odometer on my scooter, so loving that. It's a lot of fun.Josh:That's cool.Starr:That's a lot of miles for a scooter.Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Starr:I guess you just love to scoot.Ben:I love to scoot. Well, there you go, Starr. There's our happy ending after that slight dip there.Starr:That slight delay into reality.Josh:I like the dark humor. I don't know. It's always a gamble, though, with depending on... Yeah. But I think, Starr, you're always down to get dark.Starr:Oh, yeah. I'm down with the darkness. All right. Well, should we wrap it up?Ben:Let's wrap it.Starr:Okay. This has been a very witchy episode of FounderQuest, so if you liked it, go give us a review and... Yeah, if not, just keep listening to us. Make it a hate listen. You got to have a couple of those in your line-up. 

Show notes:Links:TwistHook RelayBen Orenstein TupleWrite for HoneybadgerFull transcript:Starr:So Ben is joining us today from his car. It's bringing back fun memories. I recorded, I think the voiceover for our very first demo video in my car.Ben:Oh yeah? Nice. So as you may recall, I have a two story building that I lease one of the rooms, and the downstairs is a wine tasting room. Well with the pandemic, the company that had the wine tasting room, they closed shop. They stopped leasing, because who's going to go to a wine tasting room during a pandemic, right? Well they're leasing the space to a new tenant that's going to take that space. Apparently hey, we're getting back, things are reopening, let's taste wine again, but the new tenant wants to have a new door put in. So I got to the office today and they're like, "Yeah, we're putting in a new door." And then I'm like, "Cool." Didn't even think much of it. But then a few minutes later, there's all this drilling going on. I'm like, "Oh, I think probably the car is a better place to record today."Josh:Well at least you'll have some new friends soon.Ben:True, true.Starr:Yeah. Well I'm glad you made it, at least. And so what's up? I missed a week of the podcast and you guys invested our entire Honeybadger savings account into Bitcoin.Josh:Yeah.Starr:And I'm not sure that was the most prudent investment decision, y'all. I just wanted to say that.Ben:Yeah, the timing could have been better.Josh:Yeah, we really pulled a Roam Research on that one.Starr:Oh yeah. What do you mean by that?Josh:They invest in Bitcoin, apparently.Starr:Oh, they do? Okay.Ben:Of course they do.Starr:Of course. It's just a dip. You're supposed to buy the dips, Josh. It's just what, like a 30% dip? 40% dip?Josh:I wasn't watching it, but I read that it had recovered pretty quickly too.Starr:Oh. I have no idea. I didn't even follow it.Josh:As it does.Starr:I don't even follow it.Josh:Yeah. I just read random people's opinions.Starr:There you go.Josh:I forget where we left it last week, but I just wanted to state for record that I think I mentioned I made some accidental money in Bitcoin back when I was learning about block chain technology, but I have not bought any Bitcoin since, nor do I intend to, and I do not really view it as an investment asset.Starr:This is not investment advice.Josh:I just need to state my opinions for the future so I can look back on them with regret. If I don't say what I actually think, I'm never going to have anything to regret.Starr:There you go.Josh:I'm just going to commit.Starr:So you've decided to die on this no intrinsic value hill.Josh:Right. I'll let you know if I change my mind.Starr:Okay, that's fine. That's fine. Yeah, I don't really check. Last week y'all did the interview with Mike, right?Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Josh:Yeah, it was a good conversation.Starr:Yeah. I don't really pay attention to it, except occasionally I'll look at the chart. It's the same with GameStop. Occasionally I'll look at the GameStop chart and then just see what wild stuff people are saying about it. Yeah.Ben:Yeah, GameStop was hovering at about 150 for a while, but now it's up to like 170-ish, 180. Something like that. Yeah. I peek at it every now... it's on my watch list when I log into my brokerage account, so I just see it. I'm like, "Oh, okay. Cool." And then I move on and check out my real actual stock portfolio.Starr:Oh yeah, yeah. I'm not going to buy it. It's like a TV show for me.Ben:Yeah, totally.Josh:Yeah. To be fair, I really don't have much of an opinion either way. I still don't understand it, so I don't know. I just feel like I probably shouldn't be buying it.Starr:That's really good advice. I don't understand anything though, so what am I supposed to do, Josh? Huh? Huh?Josh:Yeah.Ben:Just buy the index fund.Starr:Yeah. I don't even understand that.Josh:I don't understand that either though, if you really think about it.Ben:That's actually, there was a good thread or so on Twitter. I don't know if it was this week or last week, but basically the idea was if you feel really confident in your own ability, in your own business, given that, you're probably spending most of your time in that business, right? We spend most of our creative time in Honeybadger because that's where we feel the most potential is. So you're investing basically all of your personal capital in this one business. How do you diversify that risk? Or do you diversify the risk? Do you double down? Maybe do you take investment to diversify, and so you buy out? Let someone do a secondary and so you take some cash off the table? If you did that, then where would you put the money? Do you just go, "Okay, I'm going to go buy Bitcoin. I'm going to go buy an index fund," or whatever. And if you do that, is that a better use of your money than having just kept the equity and just plowing more time into your business? Right?Josh:Yeah.Ben:It's an interesting thought exercise. It's like, "Hm." The whole investment mindset of your business is interesting to me.Josh:Yeah. Yeah, that was interesting. I think I saw that conversation, or maybe I saw a similar conversation where they were talking about even just 401Ks and for founders who are already fairly... have at least made it in whatever sense that means. Is it the best financial move to keep maxing out your 401K versus investing in your ability to generate revenue in your business?Starr:So a little bit of real talk here. If you are a founder who's made it, maxing out your 401K isn't really a blip on your financial radar.Josh:It's not a big... yeah. That was kind of the same thought I had. It's not like you're putting 50% of your income into it.Starr:Yeah. What is it, like 20 grand? Something like that?Josh:Yeah.Starr:It's a good chunk of change, but still. It's not like...Josh:Yeah. I don't know.Starr:Yeah, that's interesting. I think I'm just going to go all in on Pogs. I think they're due for a comeback. I think that's going to be how I diversify.Josh:But I think it's probably a good move to invest in yourself if you have the ability to build businesses. That definitely seems like a good investment, in any case. Probably still have a 401K. I tend to do everything, except Bitcoin.Ben:A 401K is a nice backstop. Just keep stocking money away, and later it will be there, hopefully. But in the meantime, really, really spend your time and your energy on making your business even more profitable. Speaking of making your business more profitable, so this past week or two weeks, I've been working on our SOC 2 type two audit, so I'm doing the evidence collection.Starr:Oh yeah?Ben:So that in this case means I take a bunch of screenshots of settings, like the AWS console and G-suite console to show yeah, we have users, and yes, we have login restrictions, et cetera. All the 150 different things that you're supposed to check off the list when you do the audit. And as I've been going through this process taking all these screenshots, honestly it's getting a bit tedious, and it's surprisingly time consuming. And so I'm like, "You know, there are services for this sort of thing. Let me check them out." And so in the past three days, I've had conversations with Vanta, Secureframe, and Drata. These are three providers that what they do is they provide almost SOC 2 in a box. Basically they help you connect all of your systems and get the evidence that you need for an auditor in a more automated fashion. So for example, they'll plug into your AWS account and they'll pull out information about your security groups, your application firewall, your AIM, all the access permissions, all that kind of stuff, and pack that up into a nice little format that the auditor can then look at and like, "Yeah, they're good on all these different requirements." So you don't have to take screenshots of security groups.Ben:And I hadn't really looked at them before because I was like, "I don't know if I just want to spend that kind of money," but actually sitting back and looking at it, looking at the time that I'm spending on this and the amount of time I'm paying our auditors to audit all these screenshots that I'm taking, actually I think it would be cheaper to go with one of these services, because your audit is a bit more streamlined because the auditor knows how that data is going to come in and it's an easy format to digest, et cetera. But the thing is that after having gone through some of the sales pitches from these vendors, I'm thinking I really wish I would have started with these back the first time, because I think it would have been much easier just from the get go. So I think I've been doing the SOC compliance on hard mode, unfortunately, but lessons learned.Starr:With my experience, that just seems to be how projects are. You do it one time and you don't really know what you're doing, and you just push your way through it, and then eventually you figure out how to do it better and easier and all that. Because when something is new to you, you don't know what you can safely ignore. You know?Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Well plus you're pumping up the value of FounderQuest.Starr:Oh, that's true. We got a lot of content out of that.Ben:That's true.Starr:At least $100 worth.Josh:That's useful knowledge. Yeah.Ben:Yeah, so I think the short version is if you are interested in doing SOC2 compliance and you have no idea what you're doing, talk to these vendors first and maybe just start with them. They will help you, because they have customer success people like SaaS does. They have people on staff who are there to help you have success with their product. And if you don't get compliant, then you're going to stop using their product, so they're going to help you try and get there. And it's still pricey. It's still going to be five figures a year, but it will definitely save you some time and maybe even save you some money.Josh:Nice.Ben:Yeah. So next year, our audit should just be smooth as silk.Starr:Just butter.Josh:Love it.Starr:So if we-Josh:What are you going to do with all that extra free time?Ben:I made an executive decision.Starr:Oh really? What's that?Ben:Yes. The executive decision is we're going to have more teamwork at Honeybadger.Starr:That's ironic.Josh:Instead of what? What we have now, which is anarchy?Ben:We pretty much do have anarchy, I think. We are coordinated, we do make our plans, and we do have things we want to get done, but yeah, we are very independent at Honeybadger. We work independently. You might even say we're kind of siloed. We go off in the corner and do our own thing for most of the time. And I was chatting with Kevin about this, and I think we're going to try an experiment. So I think we're going to try to actually work together.Starr:Kevin is our developer.Starr:Yeah, so you all are going to be developing features together. Are you going to pair program? Are you going to use Tuple?Ben:Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow down there.Starr:Are you going to mob program?Ben:Pair programming, that's maybe too advanced for us, I think. Maybe actually we'll chat in Slack a little bit here and there and maybe have a Zoom call.Josh:Yeah, so you're talking about you're both going to work on the same project at the same time.Ben:Right. Right.Josh:Mostly independently, but coordinating.Ben:Right. Yeah.Josh:Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I think that still can fit into our anarchy model.Starr:Yeah. It still seems a little bit independent.Josh:It's more like mutual aid or something.Starr:There you go. We should make a conference talk about mutual aid development.Josh:Right.Starr:That would go over well.Ben:Using NATO as a model for your development process. Yeah, so we'll see how it goes. I'm looking forward to it. I think I've been feeling a little lonely. I don't know if it's the right word, but maybe just off doing my own thing. I was like, "Oh, I think it will be nice to have some collaboration, some coordination." Maybe we'll even get to a level of synergies.Starr:Synergies.Starr:That's a blast from the past.Josh:Yeah, I think it's a good idea.Ben:Yeah, so more to come on that. We'll keep you posted. It's a bigger project. May not have results for a couple months. Don't really want to spill the beans on what it is right now. Competitive information. Don't want to leak it to all of our competitors.Starr:I like that. I like that. It's going to keep people on the hook for the next episodes.Josh:Totally.Ben:But yeah. That was my week.Josh:Yeah. Well my week, I took some time off, had some family stuff going on, so I was not very productive this week, but what I did work on was I've been working on this little guide for Hook Relay. I'd love to get the marketing machine, the fly wheel going on that at least, so we can be moving that along with everything else. And so yeah, working on some content and such.Starr:What is Hook Relay?Josh:Well you tell us what Hook Relay is, Ben. It's your baby.Ben:It's my baby. Yeah. So Hook Relay is a tool for managing web hooks. So you can record web hooks as they go out. In our case, to Honeybadger, we send a lot of web hooks, and so we built Hook Relay to help track all that web hook action. So we logged as pay loads that can go and diagnose issues that are happening, or maybe replay them as necessary, and of course it also handles inbound web hooks. So if you were handling, let's say, a post pay load request from GitHub about some activity that happens in your GitHub account, you handle that web hook and we can give you a place to store that, and then you can replay that, send it, forward it onto somewhere if you want, or just store it.Josh:Yeah. I think one of my favorite things about Hook Relay is just the visibility that it gives us into what's happening with the hooks, because otherwise we never had a dashboard. I guess we could have built one internally to see what the activity was and what's failing, what's actually... what requests are... because you're connecting to thousands of different people's random domain URLs, basically. It's really nice even for debugging and things like troubleshooting to be able to see what's going on, in addition to all the other cool things that it gives you out of the box.Starr:So you might say it's even like turnkey reliability and visibility for web hooks. For all your web hook needs.Ben:Yeah. Yeah, we modeled it on Stripes web hooks because we loved-Starr:I'm holding up a box up. I'm holding the TurboLinks box up and gesturing at it with my hand.Ben:Vanna White style.Josh:We should do our own channel, do our own infomercials.Ben:Yeah, I really wanted experience of Stripe. If you set up web hooks in Stripe, you can go and you can see all the web hooks they've sent you. You can see the pay loads, you can see whether they were successfully delivered or not, and I wanted that experience for our own web hooks, and also I thought it would be cool if developers could just have that without having to build the infrastructure. And so if you're building an app that send a bunch of web hooks on behalf of your customers, well now you can give your customers visibility into that web hook activity without having to build that tracking yourself.Josh:Yeah. That's pretty cool. So basically this content guide I'm working on is how to build web hooks into your application, including all the reliability and stuff that Hook Relay gives you for free. And the idea is that if that's what you're doing and you just want to save some time, Hook Relay will be a large chunk of that. You've just got to sign up. So I think it will be useful to everyone, even if they don't become a customer. If you're going to build your own back end and handle all the retries, build dashboards, and all that. But if you want it all turnkey, then Hook Relay is a big chunk of that work just done of you.Starr:So is this live? So can people go and sign up now?Ben:Yeah.Josh:Hook Relay, yes. It is.Josh:Hookrelay.dev.Ben:Yeah. In fact, we have enough customers now that it's actually paying for itself.Starr:What?Ben:Yes. So sweet.Josh:It's wild. That's wild.Starr:That's amazing.Ben:So Josh, is your guide going to have... are you going to dive deep into the architecture of here's how you build a whole web hook system, and so we're going to show you all the stuff behind the curtain so you can build your own? And then, "Oh, by the way, if you want it just done for you, here it is." Or are you going to just keep it more high level?Josh:I'm starting more high level. Yeah, I was planning on it being more high level. More like a high level architecture thing, or specification. Like these are the parts that you'll need to build, but you're going to have to solve some things, because it's not going to be specific to one system. It's not going to be like, "This is how you build web hooks for Ruby and Sidekick, or if you're going serverless." It will have suggestions on stacks or technologies to use for the back end, for instance, but yeah. I was thinking of leaving that to the user to figure out, but just showing the things you need to think about that a lot of people don't think about until they encounter the problems that might arise, like retrying and all the error handling that you add later, and validation for security reasons and things.Ben:Yeah. Yeah.Starr:This is giving me flashbacks to a whole two or three year process after we first launched.Josh:Yeah.Starr:It was just like, "Oh, crap. There's an edge case here that we didn't think of because we're not used to doing web hooks at this scale." And that just went on for like three years.Josh:Yeah. And it's nice having the two products because Hook Relay came out of Honeybadger and it's basically part of our web hook system. This is basically just documenting Honeybadger's web hook system for other people who might want to replicate that or whatever.Ben:Totally. I think that will be cool. A great piece of content, a great piece of SEO juice. And if you did decide to go deep into the technical side, like if you explain the entire infrastructure that we're building, that would actually be kind of cool too because you could maintain your technical documentation for the system internally and use it as a piece of content for marketing.Josh:That could be cool. Yeah. That's not a bad idea. Yeah, I was thinking just because I want to get something out there. I'm thinking it will help with both, having a resource for people who are already on the site to see this is basically how you will implement this. It's kind of like an implementation guide, really. But then also SEO. It should help get us in more search results.Ben:Yeah.Josh:And I also want to credit Ben Orenstein and and Tuple. They have a great pair programming guide which was an inspiration for this idea. I just really liked the format that they used, and I just think it's a great idea if you have a product that's highly targeted or focused on one specific thing and doing it really well. I think it's maybe even a great alternative to a blog, for instance. You can get some of the same benefits of having a blog, but without actually having to create a blog with a lot of different variety of topics and things.Ben:Speaking of the blog, I was talking to Harris, our sales guru, about our blog strategy, and I said, "Yeah, it's basically like a flypaper strategy. We want it to attract developers that come and see the content and they love it and they're like, 'Oh, let me check out this Honeybadger thing.'" Not particularly novel, but I like the flypaper idea.Starr:That's a good metaphor. And also for a long time, I poo-pooed SEO because in my mind, SEO was very scammy. I don't know. I learned about SEO in the days of link farming and all that, and I just didn't want to be involved in that. So I'm just like, "We're just going to put out good content and that will be enough." And it is, yes, but also I've looked at some metrics since then that make it clear that the majority of good things that happen because of our blog actually are people entering through search queries. That really outweighs people sharing articles and doing stuff like that, which I guess is obvious that it would be that way, but my own bias against search just made me not see that for a while. So maybe trying to pick some possible low hanging fruit. We've tried to make our site search engine friendly, but we having really done any explicit SEO type activities.Josh:Yeah. I went through recently through our documentation and just tweaked just small things on a bunch of pages, like headlines and some of the meta tags and stuff, but mostly headlines and content on page was what I was focusing on. And I wasn't using any particular tool to measure before and after results, but it does seem like it bumped us up in some of the results for people searching for more general terms like Ruby error tracking, for example, which are typically pretty competitive terms. But I think we rank pretty well for some of those terms these days. I think we've been around enough and we're one of the options that come up. So it does seem like if you already target the terms, it actually does what they say it does, which is good to know. You've just got to pay attention to it.Ben:So the moral of story is there is some value in SEO.Starr:I guess so.Josh:Yeah. Well and I think documentation sites. Your documentation, I think it's a great place to optimize SEO because a lot of times, especially for those... maybe not for the long tail searches. A blog is great for that, like what you were talking about with the flypaper, Ben. But for people who are actually searching for what you do, I think a lot of times documentation pops up first in a lot of cases when I'm searching for things, so don't overlook it like we did.Starr:Yeah. Well this week, I guess the main thing I did was I got our authors lined up for the next quarter of intelligence briefings. So if you haven't been playing along at home, we're having some intelligence briefings created. Basically everything that's going on in a certain language community for the quarter, and this grew out of Josh's need because he's basically in charge of our client libraries. And we have libraries in a variety of languages, so keeping up with those languages and what's going on is a real pain in the ass, so we were going to make these guides originally for him, but then also we were like, "This would be really great content to publish."Starr:And I've already got this system with authors who want to write about programming languages, and so let's see if we can make some authors make these summaries. And so far, yeah, I'm pretty happy. We had four or five of them created, and we're not publishing them because they were for a previous quarter, and this is just a trial run to see if the results are okay, and I think they were. I think the results were pretty good. We go some feedback from you two, and I updated my process and updated the template that all the authors are using, and so we should be getting round two done. I'm setting the deadline a week after the end of the quarter. My hope is if they get them to me then, then I'll have a week to get them up on our blog or wherever, and then they won't be too out of date by the time people see them.Josh:Yeah. That's cool. I'm excited to see the next batch. My favorite thing from the reports were the ones where they wrote some original content summarizing things or sections or whatever. That was super useful because there's a little bit of a story element to it that's specific to the quarter or whatever that you don't really get from just... if you just aggregate everything, all the weekly newsletters and what happened on Reddit and what happened on Twitter. If you just dump that all in a document, it's a bit of overload, so it's nice to have the summary the story of what the community was interested in.Starr:Oh yeah. Definitely.Josh:Here are some articles that they talked about.Starr:That's the whole idea, is to have somebody who knows the community explain to you what's going on, as opposed to... if I wanted a bunch of links, I could just write a little script to scrape links from places.Josh:Yeah.Starr:And it wouldn't be very useful. What's useful is having people who know the environment being like, "Hey, this is what's going on. This is why it's important." And yeah, so that's going to be something I guess I need to look for explicitly when I get this round of things of reports back.Josh:Start calling them secret agents or something instead of authors.Starr:Oh yeah.Josh:Or detectives.Starr:Operatives. Yeah. Assets.Josh:As our detective service investigators.Ben:I think having that analysis of why this news is important or why these things are important that they've collected is really handy, because the links are great. Like you said, I could just write a script to collect them, but having someone with that context in the community saying, "Okay, and it's important because, and this is why you should pay attention," I think that's really helpful to someone who's maybe not as deep into that every day.Starr:Oh yeah.Josh:Yeah. And also knowing what to surface, because there was one report that it really seemed to just dump every single link or article that was discussed or was in a newsletter or whatever, and I think it's more helpful if it's on a quarterly level, if you know what is actually the important things that you really want to know about.Starr:Yeah, that's true. I just made a note for myself to go back and explicitly just mention that to people, because I realized I didn't put it in the instructions anywhere. I put like, "Here's where a description of the content goes," but I didn't really put what I want inside that description, I realized.Josh:Yeah.Starr:So I'm going to do that.Ben:We're iterating in real time here.Starr:Oh yeah, yeah. This is where the work gets done.Josh:Yeah. Well and pretty soon, we'll have hopefully some good examples that we can show future authors, or detectives, or whatever we're calling them.Starr:Oh, definitely. Definitely. I'm going to call them authors because they're already in the blog system as authors and it just seems like-Josh:Agents?Starr:I don't know. I've got to be able to talk to these people with a straight face.Ben:You could call them research specialists, but then you might have to pay them more.Starr:There you go.Josh:Research. Yeah. Yeah.Starr:I don't know. I think I'm paying pretty well. Honestly, I think I'm paying pretty well for looking at... I don't know. How many weeks is a quarter? 12? 12 weeks of newsletters and just telling me what's going on. I think I'm paying pretty well.Josh:Yeah. You don't need to talk to them with a straight face though. You need to talk to them with sunglasses on, smoking a cigarette in a diner.Starr:Oh that's right. Yeah.Josh:Or a dive bar somewhere.Starr:Those people aren't smiling. Those people aren't smiling. Oh, that's right. I can do that. I just realized that it's two weeks since my second vaccine, so I'm ready to go out and recruit secret agents.Josh:Ready to party.Starr:Yeah. I'm very anxious talking with people in public now, but that's not a topic for this conversation.Josh:Yeah. We'll ease back into it.Starr:Oh yeah. Yeah, we're going to have dinner with my sister in law on Saturday, and I'm just like, "Okay Starr, you can do this. You can do this."Josh:Cool.Starr:Yeah, and I guess the other thing that we did this week is we are doing a trial run of Twist as a replacement for Basecamp messages, the message board on Basecamp. And yeah, so basically the long and short of it is the whole Basecamp BS just left a bad taste in my mouth in particular. I think you all's a little bit, or maybe you're neutral. I don't care. That sounded really harsh.Ben:You can be honest with us. We can take it.Starr:No, I didn't mean to sound that harsh. I just mean I'm not trying to put my opinions onto you, is what I'm saying. I just felt gross using Basecamp. Also if I'm being honest, I never really enjoyed Basecamp as a product. It's got a couple things that just really rubbed me the wrong way.Josh:We were having some vague conversations in the past. We have posed do we really want to keep this part of what we're using Basecamp for? And we were already using a subset of it, so yeah. It wasn't totally out of the blue.Starr:Yeah. And we were using maybe 20% of Basecamp, just the message boards feature.Josh:And the check ins, which apparently we all disliked.Starr:And the check ins, which nobody liked but we all kept using for some reason. Ben is like, "Can I turn off the check ins?" And I'm like, "I thought you were the only reason we were doing the check ins, it's because I thought you liked them."Ben:I think I was the only reason we were doing the check ins.Josh:It's because... yeah.Ben:Yeah, because I remember when I started it I was like, "Yeah, I really don't know what's going on," because back to that siloed, independent, off in the corner thing, I was like, "It would be nice to know what people are doing." But yeah, lately I've been like, "This is just a drag." So I'm like, "Would anybody be upset if this went away?" And everyone is like, "Please take it away."Josh:Everyone is just passively aggressively answering them.Ben:Everyone hated it.Josh:It wasn't that bad, but-Ben:I get it.Josh:Kevin used them too, but yeah.Ben:So I finally gave everyone permission to tell me that it was not okay, and now we no longer do it.Starr:There you go. And we're just like, "While we're at it, just ditch Basecamp." So yeah, so we've been trying a new system called Twist. Twist is, essential it's... I don't know, it's like threaded discussions. I figured this out on my own. I'm very proud of myself. So you have lots of threads, and you twist them together to make yarn or something or some sort of textile, so I bet you that's why it's called Twist.Josh:Beautiful sweater.Starr:Yeah. A beautiful sweater. The tapestry that is Honeybadger. And so far, I've really been enjoying it. I find the UI to be a lot better. There was one bug that we found that I reported, so hopefully that will get fixed. It doesn't really bother me that much. Yeah, it's amazing sometimes how the UI of an application can just be like, "Oh, ah. I'm having to parse less information just to do my task."Josh:It's much nicer.Starr:Yeah.Ben:It does feel like a lot less friction for our use case.Josh:Yeah. Well we talked about that, just the structure. The way that you structure conversation and organization things in a management tool like that makes a big difference. In Basecamp, we would create Basecamps for whatever. They call them Basecamps, right? They're the projects.Starr:They're like projects. I don't know.Josh:We'd create different ones, different projects for each project, but then there's five of us, so we'd basically just add everyone to every single project that is in there. But all the conversation is siloed off in each project, and with Twist, it's just much more of a fluid... it uses what, like channels? But yeah, it just seems like it's all together. It's kind of like a combination of Slack and a threaded message board or something, to me.Starr:Yeah, or like Slack and email or something.Josh:Slack and email. Yeah. It's a nice combo.Starr:Yeah. It has inbox, which I like, where it shows you any unread messages, and so you can just easily just go and scan through them, and it's all in the same page. It's a single page application, so you don't have to click out to a completely new page and then come back to the inbox and do all that. Basecamp had a similar feature, but it's like a timeline and it had a line down the middle of the screen and then branches coming off of either side of it. And for some reason, I started using the inbox in Twist and it was just like, "Oh, this is so much better." For some reason I think having things on different sides of the screen just doubled the amount of background processing my brain had to do to put it all together. And yeah, so I don't know. I do like it. Also, it's got mark down. It's got mark down.Josh:The mark down editor is so nice. It reminds me a lot of just using GitHub, the editor on GitHub, with the mark down mode and preview. And you can drag and drop images into the... I don't know if you knew that, into the mark down editor, like you can on GitHub, and it automatically inserts the image tag and uploads it for you.Starr:Yeah, it's all really slick. So I don't know. I imagine in maybe another... I've got vacation next week, so maybe after that we'll get together and compare notes. But I don't know, it seems like people like it so far.Josh:Yeah.Ben:Yeah, it's been good. It's interesting-Josh:If I had to decide today, it's a keeper for me.Ben:Yeah, I would go ahead and switch.Starr:Oh yeah, me too.Ben:It's interesting to me, you alluded to this, Starr, as you were talking about comparing it to your products and how they approach... it's interesting to me the UI, even if it's the same kind of functionality, how much different takes on the user experience can make a different experience for the user. How it just feels different. Like, "Oh yeah, it's basically doing the same thing, but it just feels better for whatever. My mentality or our business." Fill in the blank there, but I thought about that many times. Honeybadger versus competitors. It's like, "Yeah, they're doing basically the same thing, but we do have differences in how we approach the UI and different use patterns that we think are more emphasized by our UI versus the others." And sometimes it's just a matter of personal preference. It's like, "Oh, this just feels better to me." One night I tried Python before I tried Ruby, and Python is like, "Oh, that's interesting," but then Ruby really clicked my brain. It's like, "Oh, it just feels better." And I'm sure other people have the opposite experience, but I don't know. It's weird to me and fun to think about the human part of these products. Josh:Yeah. And it's surprising, the strong opinions that people pick up just based on those experience things when they're basically the same, if they're doing the same thing. Some people, they either love it or hate it based on that.Starr:Yeah, that's true. Maybe it all goes back to whatever business apps you used in childhood. It's just whatever your mom made you for lunch, you're always going to love that.Josh:Yeah. It's like a nurture thing, nature versus nurture. You were exposed to these apps when you were young, and so it's just what you're drawn to.Starr:Yeah. I remember putting my little friend's contact details into Lotus Notes.Josh:Right. I had to program Lotus Notes.Ben:I got my first dev job because I knew Lotus Notes.Starr:Oh, nice.Josh:Lotus Notes was an important precedent at the time, I think.Starr:Yeah.Ben:Yeah. Yeah. It was the bomb. You could do some pretty serious stuff.Starr:Yeah. I kept having these jobs that weren't technically dev jobs, but ended up being dev jobs just because I knew how to write V basic macros for Excel. I'm sure a lot of people had that experience.Josh:The thing I remember doing in Lotus Notes was setting it up to ingest email from the outside world into whatever, the system. And thinking about it now, that project I've done over and over and over since then.Starr:It's Basecamp.Josh:And I'm still doing that project.Starr:It's Basecamp all over again. Oh no.Ben:If only there was a service that took in emails for you, and then you could just bring them into your app data.Josh:Yeah. I bet in 20 years, we'll be writing programs to accept email.Ben:Process emails, yeah.Josh:Yeah.Starr:Yeah. When is this stuff going away? Technology changes all the time. When is email going away? They've been killing it for years. It's like fricking Rasputin. When is it going away?Ben:It's the cockroach of protocols.Starr:There you go.Josh:After the singularity, they'll still have to have a way to import it directly into your consciousness, and yeah, I don't know.Starr:Yeah. I hope the spam filtering is really good then.Starr:All right, well it was great talking with y'all.Ben:Likewise.Starr:Yeah. So this has been FounderQuest. Go to the Apple podcast and review us if you want. If you're interested in writing for us, we are always looking for fresh, new talent. Young authors looking to make their mark on the world of technical blog posts for SAS companies. And yeah, just go to our blog and look for the write for us page. I don't currently have any openings, but who knows? People flake out. So if you're interested in writing these reports for us too, get in touch. These quarterly intelligence briefings, if you want to be an agent for our intelligence service. All right, so I'll see y'all later.

Show notes:Links:Mike MondragonCRDTShip of TheseusExceptional CreaturesShiba Inu Full Transcript:Ben:I'm just gonna dive on in there. I'm so eager. I'm so excited. It's actually weird because Starr is the one that typically starts us off. Josh:Yeah. I thought we were just going to start with our just general banter, and then not introduce the guest until 30 minutes later.Ben:By the way.Josh:It is also our tradition.Ben:Yeah. Well we're getting better at this thing.Josh:Where we say, "Oh, by the way, if Starr doesn't sound like Starr..."Ben:Right, yes. Today Starr doesn't sound like Starr because today's star is Mike Mondragon instead. Welcome Mike.Josh:Hey Mike.Mike:Hey.Ben:Mike is a long time friend of the show, and friend of the founders. Actually, Mike, how long have we known each other? It's been at least 10, maybe 15 years?Mike:Probably 2007 Seattle RB.Ben:Okay.Josh:Yeah. I was going to say you two have known each other much longer than I've even known Ben.Ben:Yeah.Josh:So you go back.Ben:Way back.Mike:Yep.Josh:Yeah.Ben:Yeah.Josh:Because I think Ben and I met in 2009.Ben:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Josh:Or something.Mike:Okay.Ben:Yeah, Mike and I have been hanging out for a long time.Mike:Yeah.Ben:We've known each other through many, many different jobs, and contracts, and so on. It's been awesome.Josh:Yeah, Mike, I feel like I've heard your name since... Yeah, for the last, at least, 10 years just working with Ben. You've always been in the background. And we've realized this is the first time we've actually met face to face, which is crazy. But it's great to... Yeah.Mike:Yeah.Josh:... have a face to put with the little... What is it, a cat avatar? Is a cat in your avatar? You've had that avatar for a really long time I feel like.Mike:Yeah, that's Wallace.Josh:Okay.Mike:So I'm Mond on GitHub and Twitter, and that cat avatar is our tuxedo cat, Wallace. And he is geriatric now. Hopefully he'll live another year. And if you remember in that era of Ruby, all of the Japanese Rubyists had cat icons. And so that was... I don't know. That's why Wallace is my icon.Josh:Yeah. Nice.Ben:So, so do Wallace and Goripav know each other?Mike:No, no, they don't. They're like best friends, right? They had to have met at Seattle RB.Ben:Yeah. Internet friends.Mike:Internet friends, yeah.Ben:Yeah. So, Mike is old school Ruby, way back, way back, yeah. But the other funny thing about the old Rubyists, all those Japanese Rubyists, I remember from RubyConf Denver... Was that 2007? Somewhere around there. I remember going to that and there were mats and a bunch of friends were sitting up at the front, and they all had these miniature laptops. I've never seen laptops so small. I don't know what they were, nine inch screens or something crazy.Mike:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Ben:I was like, "How do you even type on that thing?" But it's a thing. So I guess... I don't know. I haven't been to Japan.Mike:There are laptops that you could only get in Japan and they flash them with some sort of Linux probably.Ben:Yeah. Yeah.Mike:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Josh:Okay. I wonder how long it took them to compile C on there.Mike:Yeah. So, about the orbit with the founders. So, I think I'd put it in my notes that I... And I consider myself a sliver of a Honeybadger in that I did have a conversation with Ben about joining the company. And then in 2017, I did do a little contracting with you guys, which is ironic in that... So we're probably going to talk about cryptocurrencies and Bitcoin. So the Bitcoin protocol is, essentially, on a four-year timer. And in 2017 was the last time that we were building up to, I guess, an explosive end to that cycle. And I had just been working at Salesforce at Desk.com, And I left because of Bitcoin. And then this year, four years later, I, again, just left Salesforce, but I just left from Heroku. And I didn't leave so much because of Bitcoin, I just got a better opportunity, and I'm a principal engineer at Okta, and I'm in the developer experience working on SDKs, primarily, the Golang SDK.Mike:So I think one of the things that they were happy about was that I had experience carrying the pager, and knowing what that's like, and they wanted to have an experienced engineer that would have empathy for the engineers to main the SDK. So I'm really excited to be here, because I'm not going to be carrying the pager, and it is the fun programming. What I imagine, listening to the founders, about the kind of fun programming that you guys get to do, working with different languages and whatnot. So, obviously right now, I'm starting out with Golang. We don't have a Ruby SDK, because OmniAuth provider is the thing that most people use. But, there's also PHP, and some Java, so I'm just looking forward to being able to do a bunch of different languages.Josh:Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. We don't know anything about SDK teams, Honeybadger. But yeah, it sounds like we have very similar jobs at the moment. So that's cool. We'll have to trade tips at some point. Yeah.Ben:Yeah, I'm excited that you're there, because I'm definitely going to hit you up on the SAML stuff, because SAML's a pain in the tuchus yeah, I'm sure you'll have some insights from your time there.Mike:Well, that was how I was even open-minded to talking to Okta, was the recruiter had contacted me and I think actually it was the recruiter... I don't know the structure of how this works, but a lot of companies have a prospecting recruiter. And I think that a veteran oriented prospecting recruiter contacted me. And so being a veteran, I'll usually entertain those cold calls. And so then when I was at Desk, I wrote... So Desk was a big Rails monolith. I wrote a microservice to break some of the SSO off of the monolith itself. And in writing the API documentation that was on desk.com, I actually used Okta as one of the examples as a SSO identity provider using SAML. So yeah, I have had a little bit of experience from the outside of Okta with SAML. And so maybe I'll have more experience here to answer your questions.Ben:Yeah. We'll have to have you back and we can just do a whole hour on that. It's a fun world.Josh:After we do an hour on SDKs.Ben:Yeah, and your code that you wrote for us still lives on in Honeybadger.Josh:Yeah. Was it the webpack? That was some of the work, right?Ben:Some of it, yeah.Mike:Yep.Josh:Yeah.Ben:And some GitHub integration work.Josh:And the integrations, yeah.Mike:Yeah, well if I remember correctly with the GitHub integration, I did do some GitHub integration, and it tickled your enthusiasm, Ben, and then I think you went in and like refactored that a little bit.Ben:Well, if you have a monolith like Redo that's been around for as long as ours has, things don't... It's like, what was that Theseus' ship, it's goes around the world but you replace things as it goes, and it's never the same app, right?Mike:Yeah, that's the thing, we had discussed this in the prelude around just software engineering in general and how hard it is to maintain a monolith, especially as a company grows and as developers come rolling into a project, you get all of these... Over time you get engineers with different goals, different techniques, different styles of touching your code base, to the point that it becomes very hard to maintain a project. And I think, I don't know if we're going to talk about Heroku at all, but I think that Heroku suffers from a little bit of that, where there's very few original Heroku that are involved in the runtime at least. And I just came from being on the runtime in the control plane. And, definitely, the code base there is... There's maybe one or two people that are still around that have touched that code base from the beginning.Ben:Yeah, let's dive into that, because that's fascinating to me. I know that there's been chatter on Twitter recently that people feel that Heroku is stagnated. That they haven't really brought a lot of innovative stuff to market recently. I remember, actually a funny story, I'm going to tell it myself. I can't remember what year this was, it were way... I don't know, I don't know, early 2000s. I was sitting as part of a focus group, and I can't reveal a lot of information because secrecy and stuff. But anyway, I was part of this focus group and I was asked as part of this group, what as a developer working on Ruby applications and Rails applications, what I thought about this new thing called Heroku. And had it explained to me, "Oh, you just get push", and "Blah, blah, blah", and I poo-pooed the idea. I was like, "Nah, I'm not interested", because I already know how to deploy stuff. I've got Mongrel, I got a DVS.Josh:Say Mongrel.Ben:I know how to use SEP, why do I need this? Like Math, never going to catch on. And so don't follow me for investing advice.Mike:Yeah, totally.Josh:I got my Linodes.Mike:Yeah. Or even back then, I wrote all of my own chef, so I got my own recipes I can-Ben:Right, exactly.Mike:... bare metal at will.Ben:Exactly. So, what do you think, you've been at Heroku, you've seen this process of people having to maintain this code base over a long period of time. What are some tips for people who might be a little earlier on the process? Looking down the road, what do you suggest people think about for having a more maintainable application?Mike:That's interesting. I really think that there is not one size fits all, and actually some of the things that are specific to Heroku, and actually to desk.com when I was there previously, that some of the issues actually stem from Salesforce culture and the way that Salesforce manages its businesses. And so, I guess the thing that I've always liked about Rails, specifically, is that the conventions that are used in Rails, you can drop an experienced Rails developer pretty much into any Rails app and they're going to know the basic conventions. And that saves you so much time to ramping up and bringing your experience into a project. Whereas when you get into bespoke software, then you run into well what were the architectural design patterns 10 years ago compared to now? How much drift has there been in libraries and the language, depending.Mike:And so that is... I don't... That's a very hard question to nail down in a specific way. I would just say in spit balling this, conventions are very important, I would say. So as long as you have a conventions using a framework, then I think that you'll get to go a long ways. However, if you start to use a framework, then you get the everything is a nail and I'm going to use my hammer framework on that. Which is its own thing that I've seen in Ruby, where if you start a project with Rails, I don't think everybody realizes this, but you are essentially going to be doing a type of software development that is in the mindset of Basecamp, right? And if you have an app that is not quite like Basecamp, and then you start to try to extending Rails to do something different, then you're going to start running into issues. And I think that... It makes me sad when I hear people talk poorly about Rails, because oftentimes people are just pushing it into a direction that it's not built to do. Whether they're, like in the old days, like monkey-patching libraries, or whatnot.Ben:Yeah, I think we saw that with the rise of Elixir and Phoenix, right? José just got frustrated with wanting to do some real time stuff. And that really wasn't the wheelhouse for Rails, right? And so he went and built Elixir and Phoenix, and built on top of that. And that became a better hammer for that particular nail than Rails, right? So now if you come into a new project and you're like, "Well, I'm going to do a lot of highly concurrent stuff", well, okay, maybe Rails isn't the best solution. Maybe you should go look at Elixir and Phoenix instead.Mike:Yeah. Yeah. So, with Heroku, I just want to say that it was so awesome to work at Heroku, and the day that I got a job offer to work there, it was like... I still, if I'm having a bad day, I still think about that, and the... I've never used hard drugs, but I would think that somebody that was cocaine high, that's probably what I was feeling when I got the offer from Heroku. I started using Heroku in 2009, and it has a story within our community, it's highly respected. And so I just want to say that I still think very highly of Heroku, and if I was to be doing just a throwaway project, and I just want to write some code and do git push main, or git push Heroku main, then I would definitely do that.Mike:And we were... And I'm not very experienced with the other kinds of competitors right now. I think, like you pointed him out, is it Vercel and Render?Ben:Render. Mm-hmm (affirmative).Mike:Yeah. So I can't really speak to them. I can really just speak to Heroku and some of the very specific things that go on there. I think one of the issues that Heroku suffers from is not the technology itself, but just the Salesforce environment. Because at Salesforce, everything eventually has to be blue, right? And so, Heroku, I don't think they ever could really figure out the right thing to do with Heroku. As well as, the other thing about enterprise software is that if I'm selling Salesforce service cloud or whatever, I'm selling, essentially, I'm selling seats of software licenses. And there's no big margin in selling Compute, because if I'm buying Compute, I expect to be using that.Mike:And so, as a salesperson, I'm not incented to sell Heroku that much because there's just not margins for me in the incentive structure that they have at sales within Salesforce. So I think that's the biggest thing that Heroku has going against it, is that it's living in a Salesforce environment. And as, I guess, a owner of Salesforce being that I have Salesforce stock, I would hope that they would maximize their profits and actually sell Heroku. Who knows, maybe a bunch of developers get together and actually buy the brand and spin that off. That would be the best thing, because I think that Salesforce would probably realize a lot more value out of Heroku just by doing that, even if there's some sort of profit sharing, and then not have to deal with all the other things.Ben:Yeah, that's really interesting. Yeah. The thing about billing, and then selling per user, versus the compute- That's definitely a different world. It's a totally different mindset. And I think Josh that we have now been given a directive step. We should acquire Heroku as part of Honeybadger.Josh:I was going to say, maybe we can acquire it with all of our Doge profits in five or 10 years from now.Mike:Well, yeah. Somebody spin a Heroku coin, a ERC20 token on Ethereum and get everybody to dump their Ethereum into this token.Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Mike:Get that pot of money together. And then that is the Heroku Foundation. Yeah, exactly.Josh:Okay, yeah.Mike:The Heroku Foundation that buys the Heroku brand. I know that we're laughing about it, but actually this is what is possible today. And, I was telling Ben... Well, let me just say a couple of things about the FounderQuest and how it relates to me, is I've been listening to FounderQuest from the first episode, and I'm an only child, and I like to listen to podcasts. So I'll be on my afternoon walk, and I'll be hearing you guys talk, and I'm having this conversation along with you guys listening to the podcasts.Mike:And so, I think, in January, you guys were talking about, or maybe Ben was talking about, $30,000 Bitcoin, and you guys just had your yucks and laughs about it. And it actually made me think critically about this, because I've been involved with Bitcoin since about 2012, and it's like, "Do I have a tinfoil hat on?" Or what do I think? And so, I'm not joking about this, listening to you guys actually has helped me concretely come up with how I feel about this. And first off, I think, I'm bullish on technology. And this is the first epiphany that I had, is all of us have had a career close to Linux, close to Ruby, building backend services, close to virtualization and orchestration. Fortunately, that's been my interest, and fortunately that's been where our industry has gone. And so, when Bitcoin came out, as technologists, all you ever hear, if you don't know anything about Bitcoin, you just hear currency. And you're thinking internet money, you're not thinking about this as a technologist.Mike:And so that was the thing. I wish that Bitcoin had been talked about as a platform, or a framework.Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Mike:And not even called it coin. Because that confuses the issue-Josh:The whole coin thing, just... Yeah.Mike:Yeah, totally. And mining the metaphors-Josh:That alone.Mike:... just totally throws everything off. Because we are talking, we're laughing about it, but this is really possible today. We could come up with a Foundation to buy Heroku with a cryptocurrency, and it would... Yeah. So that's one thing that Ben helped me realize in my thinking around Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies. And I think I'm just bullish on technology. And so to me, again, across our career, there's been so much change. And why would we look at Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies any differently than any other kind of technology? Even a hundred dollar bill with all the holograms on it, that is a kind of financial technology. And so we're just talking about a digital technology, we're not talking about coins I guess.Josh:That's the appeal, a lot of the Altcoins, right? They give everyone a way to invest in those companies, whereas before you would have to... Whatever, be an accredited investor or something to be able to get involved. Is that part of the appeal? I'm probably showing what I know about crypto, which is very little, but I'm excited to... Yeah, maybe you can...Mike:Yeah. Yeah, so I feel like these projects are... I'm not a VC, and I'm not an insider, but from what I can see from afar, in Silicon Valley there's a close group of people that have access to all of these ideas. And there's Angel clubs, and VC clubs, and whatnot, that are funding these startups. And to me, I feel like these crypto projects are the same kind of thing, except for they're just available to the public. And so, I think if I was speaking to another technologist that was interested in cryptocurrencies, is you probably need to get your hands on some of the technology in order to get experience with it.Mike:And so if that means you figure out how to maybe mine some coin on your laptop, or whatever, or you actually pay for it, you should at least have some in your possession, and at least learn about the custodial part of it. Also, there's different software libraries now to actually do programming against it, and platforms, I believe. So that'd be another way to at least tickle your curiosity, is by actually touching the technology and not thinking about the value. So yeah.Ben:Yeah. That, to me, that's one of the most interesting things about the whole coin thing. My younger son is really interested in the crypto space, in the coin and in the other parts of a distributed ledger, and what does that mean, and how does that work? And before I heard about NFTs, he was talking about NFTs. And so it's really interesting to me to see this coming from him. Just yesterday, we had a conversation about CRDTs, right? Because we're talking about how do you merge transactions that are happening in distributed fashion? Right? I was like, "Oh yeah", and it's so weird to have my teenage sons' world colliding with my world in this way.Josh:Yeah.Ben:But it's a lot of fun. And I've got to say, Mike, I got to give you back some credit, talking about the whole coin thing. As you've heard, we're pretty coin skeptical here at Honeybadger, the Founders, but you made a comment in our pre-show conversation. And maybe you didn't make this explicitly, but maybe it's just a way that I heard it. But I think... Well what I heard was, and maybe you actually said this, was basically think about this like an index fund, right? You put dollar cost to averaging, right? You put some money into coin, you put a little bit, it's not going to be your whole portfolio, right? But you don't treat it like a gamble, and you just treat it like an investment, like you would other things that may appreciate in value. And of course you may not.Ben:And so, as a result, I decided, "Okay, I can do that. I can put a little bit of my portfolio into coins". So just this week, and this is the funny part, just this week-Josh:I'm just finding this out now, by the way.Ben:Yeah, yeah. Josh is like... I told my wife about this last night and she was like, "What's Josh going to say?" "Like, I don't know". So anyway, just this week I put a little bit of money into Bitcoin and Ethereum. And that was... When did Elon do his thing about Bitcoin? Was that Thursday morning?Josh:Oh yeah.Ben:I bought, two hours before Elon did his thing, and Bitcoin lost 15% of its value.Mike:That's awesome.Ben:I'm like, "It's okay. It's okay, I'm just putting-Josh:Yeah, you don't sell, it doesn't matter.Mike:What was your emotion? What was your emotion?Ben:Yeah, totally. Yeah. In fact, my first buy, I used Coinbase. And Coinbase was like, "Oh, do you want to do this periodically?" I'm like, "Yes, I do. Every month". Boom.Mike:Oh.Ben:I went ahead and set that up like so, yeah.Mike:Oh, I did not know you could do that.Ben:I'm in it to win it, man.Mike:You should get a hardware wallet. That's the next thing, is you need to learn how to handle your own custody, so-Josh:Right, yeah. You got to... Yeah.Mike:Not leave it on the exchange. Interesting.Josh:Get those hard drives.Mike:Yeah.Josh:Yeah. Ben's a veteran indexer though. So you can handle some dips. Some volatility.Ben:Yeah. Yeah.Josh:I actually, I did make some money off of Bitcoin back in the day, and probably if I would've just held onto it, I would've made a lot more, of course.Mike:Same.Josh:So I accidentally... Back, I don't know when this was, it was maybe five years ago or something, when Bitcoin was going through one of its first early hype cycles, and I was like, "I'll check it". I was learning about it, of course. And so I went and bought some and I think I ran a blockchain Elixir app that someone made, to see how the transactions work and stuff. Read some books on Bitcoin. But I bought some Bitcoin, I can't remember how much, but just left it. I think this was after Coinbase had launched, I'm pretty sure I bought it through Coinbase. But yeah, I just left it, and then that was when it was in the first huge push of Bitcoin where it went up to 20,000 or something. And I remembered that I had it, and I went and looked and oh yeah, I made five grand or something. I put hardly anything into it initially. So I forget what I actually bought with that money. I just sold it and it's like cool, free money.Mike:So you just sold it this year? Or you sold it...Josh:No, I sold it back-Mike:In 17?Josh:I think I sold it at 20... Yeah, this would have been at 17 that I actually sold it, probably.Mike:Did you report it on your taxes, your capital gains?Josh:I did, yes. Yeah, I did.Ben:That's the benefit of having an accountant, because your accountant reminds you, "You know what? You did have some Bitcoin transactions, you should probably look at those".Josh:Can I say on here that I actually put some of it through a Bitcoin tumbler though, just to see how those work?Mike:Yeah, I mean...Josh:And that was a very small amount of money, but I didn't actually report that on my taxes. Because I think I actually forgot where it was or something.Ben:You'll have to explain what a Bitcoin tumbler is.Josh:So a Bitcoin tumbler... Well, I'll try, and then maybe Mike might explain it better, but a Bitcoin tumbler is basically how you anonymize your Bitcoin transaction. If you have some Bitcoin and you want to buy some drugs on the dark web or something, you go and you send your Bitcoin to this tumbler, and then it distributes it to a bunch of random Bitcoin addresses that it gives you. And then you have those addresses, and they're anonymized, because they've been sent through a bunch of peoples' wallets, or something like that.Mike:Yep. That's basically it.Ben:So it's basically money laundering.Josh:Yeah, it's laundering.Mike:Yeah. But if your privacy... I mean, okay-Josh:Yeah, no, I get it. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Because part of the appeal of Bitcoin is some people are just like, "Oh yeah, good money, credit card transactions are so... The governments are recording them and stuff, the NSA probably has a database of them". So Bitcoin is anonymous, but it's not. It's not anonymous. And yeah. So that's why people do this, right?Mike:Yeah. Well that, to me, that's if you want to... So the value of Bitcoin, if you want to get bullish on the value of Bitcoin, the traditional outlook is yeah, the silk road was going on and there's all this illegal stuff going on. Therefore it must be bad. But actually, to me, that's the thing, you know it's good if there's illicit stuff going on, because what's the number one currency that's used right now for illicit transactions? It's dirty US dollar bills. And if you're a drug dealer in central South America, you are collecting, dollar bills United States. You're paying some sort of transport probably at 10, 15% cost to get those dollars back to wherever you're going to hold them. And so, if you're using Bitcoin, you're probably not going to pay that fee. So, to me, it's like okay, that actually proves, at least in my mind, that there is value. That it's being used, right?Josh:Yeah. And you also, you don't want to see... Some people are fanatics about cash going away, even just because as more people move to digital transactions, whether it's just through, whatever, traditional networks, or through crypto. People are using less and less cash. And I feel like, whatever... Like Richard Stallman, he pays for everything in cash though, because he thinks that cash is going to go away someday. And that's a problem for privacy, because you do want a way to pay for things in private in some cases.Mike:Yep. I agree.Josh:Yeah.Ben:My only real beef with Bitcoin, well, aside from the whole requiring power plants just to do a transaction, is that there is Badger coin. This company that is named Honeybadger, it's all about Bitcoin. And they have these ATM's in Canada, and we constantly get support requests from people.Mike:Oh really?Josh:Is this the reason that we've been so down on cryptocurrencies in the past?Ben:I think so.Josh:Because ever since the beginning, since people started making coins, Badger coin came out and then it's been our primary exposure to be honest.Ben:It has been, yeah.Josh:Throughout the past... I don't know how many years it's been. Has it been six-Ben:Yeah, six-Josh:... to eight years?Ben:Yeah, something like that. It's been nuts.Josh:I'd say.Mike:You should send them an invoice, and they actually-Ben:Yeah, so what happens is they had these kiosks where you can buy Bitcoin, right? You put your real money in, and you get your fake money out, right? And the name on the top of the kiosk is Honeybadger. So, someone puts in some money, real money, and they don't get their fake money, then all of a sudden they're upset, right?Mike:Yeah.Ben:And so they... For whatever reason, it doesn't go through, right, I don't know how this works, I've never bought Bitcoin at a kiosk. But so, they're like, "Okay, Honeybadger". And so they Google Honeybadger, and the first result for Honeybadger is us. And so they're like, "Oh, here's a phone number I can call". And they call us. And they're like, "Where's my Bitcoin?" That's like, "Uh, I really can't help you with that".Josh:They do.Ben:"You stole my Bitcoin". It's like, "No, that's not us".Josh:Something just occurred to me. I wonder how many of them are just confused over the fact that Bitcoin transactions can take a while to arrive now, right? It's not always instantaneous, where it used to be a lot faster, but now I know that it can take a while to clear. So I wonder how many of those people are emailing us in the span... Maybe that's why they eventually always go away and we don't hear from them again. Maybe it's not that they're getting help, but it's just that their Bitcoins are arriving. Yeah. I have a feeling that there's some sort of... I'm guessing these are mostly regular normies using, and interacting with this very highly technical product and experience, and even if you're walking up to a kiosk, but there's still a highly technical aspect of it that, like you said Mike, people are thinking coin, they're thinking... The way this maps to their brain is it's like dollar bills. So they're looking at it like an ATM. Yep.Mike:Yeah. When it comes to cryptocurrency and the technology, I don't want to have to think about custody, or any of that other kinds of stuff. It'll be successful when it just is happening, I'm not thinking about it. They're already... In some... I don't know all of the different mobile devices, but I do carry out an iPhone. And so, the wallet on iPhone is pretty seamless now, right? And so I'm not thinking about how that technology is working. I had to associate an Amex with it originally, right? But once I've done that, then all I do is click my button to pay. And there you go. And so I do think that the cryptocurrency technology has a long way to go towards that, because if normal people, the non nerds, have to think about it, then it's not going to be useful. Because in the end-Josh:Yeah.Mike:... humans use tools, right? And so, whatever the tool is, they're going to use it especially if it's easy and it makes their life easier.Ben:So what I really want to know, Mike, is what are your feelings about Dogecoin? Are you bullish on Doge?Mike:Well, I'll answer that, but I wanted to come back to the bit about the NFT, and just talking about the possibilities with technology. And I think that you guys could profit from this.Ben:I like where it's going.Mike:You'll have to do some more research. But I think what you could do... See, I love the origin story of Honeybadger. And maybe not everybody knows about the Honeybadger meme from what is... When was this, two thousand...Ben:2012? 2011?Mike:Yeah, okay. So not everybody... Yeah, bot everybody knows about the meme. I guess, just go Google-Ben:I can link it in the show notes.Josh:It's long dead. This meme is long dead.Mike:Is it? Well it's still awesome. I still love it.Josh:It is.Mike:So, there's so many facets of this that I love. The first one is that... Can I name names on competitors-Ben:Of course.Mike:... in the origins? Okay. So the first one was is that Airbrake, an exception reporting service, was doing a poor job with their customer service. And you guys were like, "We're working on this project, we need exception reporting. It's not working". It's like, "Well, can we just take their library, and build our own backend?" Right? And to me, that is beautiful. And in thinking about this episode, in Heroku, the same opportunity lies for an aspiring developer out there where you could just take the Heroku CLI and point it at your own false backend until you figure out all of the API calls that happen. And I don't know, you have that backed by Kubernetes, or whatever orchestration framework is...Mike:There is the possibility that you could do the same Honeybadger story with Airbrake SDK, as there is with the Heroku CLI. So that's the first thing I love about the Honeybadger story, and the fact the name goes along with the fact that Airbrake had poor customer support, and you guys just were like, "F it, we're going to build our own exception reporting service". Now, in the modern context with NFTs is... I have old man experience with the NFTs in that GIFs, or GIFs, and JPEGs, this is BS that people are gouging for profit. However, the technology of the NFT... This is the thing that I think is beautiful, is that... And I'm not sure which of the NFTs does this, but there is the possibility that you could be the originator of a digital object, and then you sell that digital object. And then as that digital object is traded, then you, as the, I guess, the original creator, you can get a percentage of the sales for the lifetime of that digital asset.Ben:Yeah.Mike:And, I'm not sure which of the NFTs allows that, but that is one of the things, that's one of the value propositions in NFT. So what I was thinking is if you guys did an NFT on the shaw of the original Honeybadger Ruby SDK check-in, that this could be the thing that you guys have an experiment with, is you have real skin in the game, you're playing with the technology and see if that works. And, let me know if you do that, because I might try to buy it. So, we'll see.Josh:Well, we've already got a buyer, why wouldn't we?Mike:Yeah, so..Ben:Indeed, yeah.Josh:See I was thinking maybe you could own various errors or something in Honeybadger.Mike:Yeah, I mean... Whatever digital signature you want to... Whatever you want to sign, and then assign value to.Josh:Yeah, we could NFT our Exceptional Creatures.Mike:Yeah.Josh:Have you seen that, Mike? Have you seen that project?Mike:Yep, yep.Josh:Okay.Mike:I'm well aware of that. Yep.Ben:Yeah. I'm thinking what about open source maintainers, right? Let's say you have this project and someone really wants a particular feature, right? Or they're really happy about a particular feature that you've already done, right? You can sell them that shaw, that commit, that put it into name, right?Mike:Yeah, totally.Ben:You are the proud owner of this feature. Thank you.Mike:Yeah, totally. Yeah, I was hoping that I would come with some ideas. I hope someday in the future that I run into somebody and it's like, "Oh, we heard that podcasts were where ideas were free ideas that were worth a lot of money were thrown about. And I did this project, and now I'm retired. Thank you, Mike". Honeybadgers.Josh:Wait, so Ben are you saying that, so as a committer, so say I commit something to Rails, submit a PR, so then I own that PR once it's merged and it would be like I could sell that then to someone? Is that along the lines of what you're saying?Ben:No, I'm thinking the owner of the project. So, if you commit something to Rails, and you're really excited about it, and you for some reason want to have a trophy of that commit-Josh:Right.Ben:... on a plaque on the wall, right? Then the Rails core group could sell you that token.Josh:Okay. Gotcha.Ben:That trophy, that certificate, like, "Yep. This is your thing. Commissioned by..." It's like naming a star, right?Josh:Yeah.Ben:You buy the rights to a star, and it's fake stuff, right? We're naming stars. But that's the same idea.Josh:Yeah. So you could use that same idea to incentivize open-source contribution. So if you make the PR to Rails and it gets merged, you get this NFT for the PR merge, which you could then actually profit for if it was... Say it was, I don't know, turbo links or something, whatever. Years later, when it's a huge thing and everyone in Rails is using it, maybe Mike's going to come along and be like, "Hey, I'll buy... I want to own the PR for turbo links".Ben:Right.Josh:Yeah. And of course then, you, as the owner, would also profit from any sale between parties later on too. You'd get that little percentage.Mike:Yeah. Well, so when somebody comes up with committer coin, just remember me, I want to airdrop of some committer coin.Josh:We have a name. We've got a name for it. Commit coin.Ben:I've got a new weekend project ahead of me.Mike:Yeah.Josh:Cool. Well, that helps me understand NFTs.Ben:Yeah, I really like the idea of being able to sell ownership rights to a digital asset. That I think a good idea. I don't know that the current implementation that we see on the news is a great implementation of that idea. Buying the rights for a copy of a JPEG, it feels kind of sketchy to me. But maybe there's some sort of, I don't know, PDF document that has some sort of value for some reason. And you can give that, sell that to someone. And to me, it's not so much about the profit, or the transaction, it's the ownership. You can say I am the owner of this thing. Yeah, there can be copies all over the place, but I'm the person that has the ownership, quote unquote, of this thing.Josh:Yeah, yeah. But then you've got to define value Ben. What is value? Okay, so, what makes a PDF more valuable than a JPEG?Mike:Yeah. Yeah. Bring this back to Dogecoin, and value propositions, and whatnot. What is valuable? When you're talking about the value of a JPEG, this reminded me of a conversation I was having with my son. He's 10 years old and he wanted some money to buy, I don't know what it was, and old man voice came out of me and it's like, "That's BS. I don't think that's valuable". And he looked at me and he was like, "It's valuable to me". And it's like, "Oh, you just put a dagger in my heart. I'm killing your dream". And one person's value may not be another person's value. So, on the Dogecoin, that's interesting. Dogecoin is very interesting to me, because I feel like I'm in a quantum state with a Dogecoin where it is a joke, but at the same time it apparently it has value.Mike:And I don't know where I stand on that threshold. I know how to trade Dogecoin. And I know the behavior of Dogecoin, and the behaviors, from a trading standpoint, has changed substantially in the last six months. Before it was a pump and dump kind of thing. Well, actually, you know what? When Dogecoin was first created, its purpose was highlighted by the community. People in podcast land don't realize this, but I'm wearing a 2017 Dogecoin shirt from when the Dogecoin community sponsored the number 98 NASCAR. And the thing of the community was like, "Oh, we have all this money, and we're just being altruistic and we're giving it away". And so they were exercising their belief with this currency, right?Mike:And from then, till now, there was a bit of a cycle to Dogecoin where you could, if you acquired Dogecoin for say under a hundred Satoshis, this is the Dogecoin BTC pair, that was actually a good buy. Just wait for the next pump when somebody does something, and Dogecoin goes over 200, or 300 Satoshis, and then you dump it. And that's basically what I did on this in the last six months. I had a small bag of Dogecoin waiting for the next pump and dump. And I actually did that, but it kept on getting pumped, and then it would stabilize. And then now we're at the point where apparently Elon Musk and Mark Cuban are saying that there's value to it.Mike:And to me, I actually put a lot of credence to that, because these are two public persons that they cannot... If they're pumping things in the public domain, then they have risk, right? And so you can't be those two people, and be pumping, and not run the risk of the FTC of the United States government coming in and saying, "Hey, why were you doing this?" So there's the, I guess for me, a small bit of a guarantee that maybe there is something to Dogecoin.Josh:Yeah. See, the way I think, when you first started you were saying it is a joke, but you're in this dual state, and my initial or immediate thought was it is a joke, but this is the internet, and the internet loves to make silly things real.Mike:Yeah, yeah.Josh:Especially these days.Ben:Yeah. It's pretty funny for all those people that made a bunch of money on GameStop, right? Yeah.Mike:Yeah. Well that's the thing, is in Dogecoin, Doge is, of itself, from a meme from the same time period as Honeybadger, right? The Iba Shinu doggie, right? So, the other thing I don't understand, or the thing that I understand but I don't know how to quantify it for myself, is that, to me... So there's no pre-mine on Dogecoin. There's no one person that owns a lot of Dogecoin from the beginning. Whereas if we're talking about Ethereum, Vitalik Buterin, the founder, or one of the founders of Ethereum, they pre-mined Ethereum, and there's a ton of Ethereum that's owned by the founders. Whereas you compare that to, say, Litecoin, Charlie Lee cloned Bitcoin and created Litecoin. He sold all of his Litecoin. I believed in him when he said he's sold it all. He's a software engineer, just like us. He was Director of Engineering at Coinbase.Mike:He doesn't seem like he's wearing tinfoil hat out there, doing conspiracies. So when he says that he sold his coin in 2017, all of his Litecoin, I totally believe that. Yet today, he is the chairperson of the Litecoin foundation. And so, to me... I actually do have, I placed some value in the benevolence of Litecoin and Dogecoin, because there's not any one person that actually controls it. I guess Charlie Lee, he probably has a stronger voice than most. But he doesn't control the levers.Josh:Not financially.Mike:Yeah.Josh:Yeah.Mike:Yeah. And so then with Dogecoin... So Dogecoin, it'll be awesome if it gets above a dollar, but the structure of Dogecoin will be such as they cannot maintain that.Josh:Right.Mike:Because it's an inflation-Josh:There's no cap, right?Mike:Right.Josh:Yeah.Mike:It's inflation. And so, I don't know the number, I think it's a million Dogecoin are minted every day. So, 10 years from now, if Dogecoin is worth a dollar still, then that means Bitcoin will be worth a lot more than that. So I guess that'd be awesome if Dogecoin stays a dollar. However, the point I'm trying to make is actually there is value in having an inflationary currency, especially if we're talking about living in the structure of our current financial... The way that our current financial markets work, where there is an inflation.Mike:And so if I want to be transacting with a digital currency, I don't want to have to be, say, like having an Argentina kind of moment where my one Dogecoin is worth $5 American today, and then maybe only $3 American a week from now. So to me, I think there is value in Dogecoin in that it's inflationary, and that it will not be as susceptible to speculation bubbles as other currencies. And so, I don't know if that answers your questions on the value of Dogecoin, but those are a couple of reasons why I think that Dogecoin is valuable. Now, am I going to be holding a big bag of Dogecoin in 2022? Probably not. Just to be honest.Ben:We're all about honesty at Honeybadger. I love the episodes where we have to have a disclaimer, this is not financial advice. Please consult competent professionals before investing, et cetera, et cetera. Mike, it has been a delight to have you with us. We appreciate your counterbalance to our coin pessimism that we have amongst the Honeybadger fan base.Josh:Yeah, I think we needed this.Ben:Yeah.Josh:We really needed this.Ben:We really did.Josh:So thank you.Ben:It's been good.Mike:Yeah. Oh, I got one more idea out there. Hopefully, somebody can run with this, is I've been trying to get motivated to do some experimentation with the Bitcoin lightning network. We didn't really talk about these a layer two solutions for scaling, but I think that there is a lot of potential in coming up with an interesting project that lays within the Litecoin* network, it has its value in and of itself, but there's a secondary value of being a note on the Litecoin* network where if there's transactions going through your node, let's say, I don't know how you'd instrument this, but let's say that Honeybadger actually was... That you guys were taking your payments across your own lightning node, then all of the transactions that are going across the lightning network, you're getting a small fee, right? So I think that there's the possibility of a micropayments kind of play there, like for instance, paying by the exception. I mean, literally-*Editor's note from Mike - "in my excitement talking about the Lighting Network I slipped and said Litecoin a couple of times between Lightning Network. Lightning Network is a layer 2 protocol that is primarily intended for scaling Bitcoin and that was what I meant. However, Lightning can be implemented to run on top of Litecoin and Ethereum."Josh:That has come up that has come up in the past, I think at one point.Mike:You can't do micro payments on a credit card.Josh:Yeah.Mike:Right? But you can do micropayments on lightening network. And I'm not selling you guys on this, but I'm saying that there's going to be some nerd out there that it's like, "Oh my God micropayments are here, I can do micropayments on lighting network". And then they're going to do well on that product, but then they're also going to do well on the commission that they're earning on payments going through their node.Josh:This could be used for usage base software as a service billing model.Ben:Totally. And then you get the skim off the top, just like a good affiliate does.Mike:Yes.Ben:I love it.Mike:Yes.Ben:I love it. All right. All right, Mike, we're going to have to do some scheming together. Well, any final words, any parting words besides go by all the Dogecoin that you can?Mike:Yeah. Don't put all your money into the cryptocurrencies. Yeah.Josh:Seems like good advice.Ben:Be smart

Welcome to the final segment of this special interview! In this episode you get to hear Russell answer all these interesting questions: Who do you look up to? What is Tony Robbins like? How do you “deal” when things get heavy? What do you sacrifice for success? Is there closure as an entrepreneur? What do you want to be known or remembered for? Russell and Josh chat about all this and much more in the exciting conclusion to this “Atlas Shrugged” interview series. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- What's up, everybody? This is Russell Brunson, and I want to welcome you, first off, to the Marketing Secrets podcast; and, second off, to the last part of our five-part Atlas Shrugged interview series. The exciting conclusion. At this time, we'd been going for three-plus hours. I was really, really tired. If I sound like I am kind of out of it, it's because I was probably a little bit out of it. We started the interview at 8:00 or 9:00 at night, so this is probably midnight or so. The night before, I had slept three hours. Or, two nights before, it was three-and-a-half... Three hours and 12 minutes. I remember. I wear an aura ring, so I track my sleep cycle. So, the night before, I slept three hours and 12 minutes. The night before this was, like, five hours. So I was tired. I was worn out. But I still had a lot of fun with it. I think Josh is a great interviewer. And I think that we had a lot of fun talking about all this stuff. So, with that said, you guys, hope you enjoyed this interview series. And, when we come back from the theme song, you have a chance to jump right into the exciting conclusion. Part five of the Atlas Shrugged interview. Josh Forti: So, one of the things you talk about in... Well, actually, expert secrets. But I think they mention it... She kind of mentions it in this book, too... is creating belief by looking up to somebody. And, if you can't see it, if nobody else has done it, then it's hard for people to kind of imagine it and ingrain it. Like, for me, I look up at... I'm like, "Who do I want to be like? What business do I want?" I'm like, "Okay, cool." Like you and your books, I want to be like that type of bit here. And then Katie Richards is another one. Being a powerful person, just in general. Okay, like, these are the people that I look up to, and I'm like, "Okay. That's what I'm going towards." So, for you, who are those people? Like, in your life. That you look up to, and you're like, "Okay, that's it." Because I feel like, the higher you get... And, I mean, you're not all the way up the ladder, right? There's still plenty more. But you're way above where the average person is going to get to. The average person has a lot of people they can look up to. You, there's a lot less options, I feel like. Who are those people that you look up to and go, "Okay, that's who I'm trying to be more like," or, "That's where I learned my lessons from." Russell Brunson: Yeah. There's different parts of my life for different people, too. You know? Josh: Yeah. Russell: I look at the business side, I know the companies I aspire to be like. Salesforce, Shopify, HubSpot. Those are companies that are just like the next tier, but from where we are. That they've crossed the chasm, where we're still trying to figure out how to... That next tier. Right? Josh: Yeah. Russell: I think watching them has been... That's when we said we'd go to DreamForce two years in a row, just because I wanted to... And I talked about it, actually, on my podcast. Because when I was out there, it was like... And you need to see it to understand it. Because I remember, when I was wrestling, my dad, my freshman year, took us to the... I had just started wrestling. He took us to the state tournament. I saw this guy on my team win state. And I was like, "That's what I want." Exactly what it was. That'd be my goal. And you see it to do it. So I think for me, those are kind of the businesses that I look up to. People, I mean, Tony... From an influence... Like, people speaking, Tony still, to me, is like... Who's bigger than him, right? Josh: Right, right. Russell: Or better. And the fact I've had a chance to build a friendship with him is really cool, because it's been interesting to see him not on stage. You know what I mean? Like, everyone has a chance to see him on stage, and he's the best in the world on there. But then you see him offstage, and see who he really is. And it's just cool to see that, I don't know, someone who's been doing this for that long, consistently, who still cares, who's still doing this. He doesn't need money, but he still is doing events almost every day of the year, because he wants that. So I think that- Josh: He can stop. Russell: Yeah. And I get it. I have so much respect for that. So I think that's a big thing. Yeah. Just, different areas of life, there's different people. But- Josh: What's it like- Russell: I've tried harder and harder to get closer and closer to him, because I like seeing... I like understanding them, not just from the outside, but understanding from inside. Because it's just a different perspective that you don't get. You know what I mean? Josh: Yeah. What is it it like? What is Tony like? Russell: Honestly, he's like a little kid. We went to his house, and... I can't talk with details, but he had a slide in his house, and he went down the slide with us, and it just... It was really cool. And we had a chance to go with him and do the meditation thing. And the way he served us, when we were with him at his house, you can tell it's how he wishes he could serve everybody. You know? And that just is hard. Like, you saw him... He's in this room serving us, and he's crying, and you see this emotion. And you're just like, "Oh my gosh," like, "he would do this for everyone if he could." But he can't. So that's why you do these big scale things. But it's the best way he can do that. But I think, if he could, he would do that for every single human being he could. It's just really... I don't know. It's cool. There's been a lot of situations, when I've been around him, where he could have not... He could have easily, like, turned it off. You know, but it's sincere. He doesn't turn it off. You know what I mean? And I try to be that way as much as I can. And hopefully you've seen, now with me and my kids? Josh: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Russell: I try to. And obviously, there's Russell, who's a more introverted, more reserved, and then there’s Russell who’s gonna be like, "Ahh!" But it's still the same... Hopefully. I want to be growing like that. Like, I'd respect him, because he's... In every situation I've seen him, he's always been sincere. Which is not... I can't say that about most people in our industry, and our world. Josh: Yeah. For sure. Russell: Which is unfortunate, because it's just like, "You are..." I remember one time I was in an event, and I heard this guy speak. He was awesome. And he just breaks down crying in the middle of this event, in the middle of the speech. And I was like, "This guy is great." And he got offstage. And he looks at me, and he's like... He said something like, "I pulled out the fake tears again." And I was like, "What?" I remember just feeling like... Ugh. I just felt so sick. How does someone do that and not... He was all proud of it. Like, "Ha," like, "I got them with my..." I just remember feeling so... Just dirty. And I just didn't like that. I was like, "I don't want to be that way. I want to be..." I don't want people saying, like, "Oh, yeah, Russell's different here than here." I don't want people saying that. Josh: Yeah. Like, one consistent person. The same person on and off stage. Russell: Yeah. Josh: There's certain people that... You just know. You meet them, and they're just genuine all the way through. Right? Russell: Mm-hmm Josh: I'm trying to think... Like Catherine Jones, right? For example. She's awesome, right? We had dinner. I had dinner with her, and... Well, God. I had dinner with her, and some friends... Russell: "What am I allowed to say in the podcast?" Josh: Yeah. No, her and some friends, when I was in Utah last. And I've had her as a client. I've watched her speak on stage, in front of... Live. I've had dinner with her. And it's like, it is the same person. Right? Russell: So cool. Josh: And there are people like that. And they're rare. I really do think- Russell: That's what people say. Like, "You never want to meet your mentors, because they're going to disappoint you." Josh: Yeah. Russell: Because of that. Because it's like, "Oh, you put them on this pedestal, and you see them in real life, and you're like... 'Huh. Well. That's disappointing.'" And then it negates all the stuff... That's my biggest thing, is that I don't want somebody who... I gave them something, to help them, and they see me in real life, and it's like, "Oh." It negates- Josh: Yeah! Russell: All you just gave them. Which it does, right? Josh: It really does. Because it takes away the trust factor. Russell: Yeah. And so it's just like... I don't know. Because I think I was nervous meeting Tony the first time. I was like, "What if..." Josh: Yeah, no kidding. Russell: You know? And you see him multiple times, over and over and over, and you're just like, "Cool." It's just neat to see that. Josh: So, what's interesting is, one of my biggest reservations about Tony before... You, and Funnel Hacking Live, was actually the thing that warmed me up to Tony. Because I didn't really know a whole lot... I'd never experienced Tony like I have at Funnel Hacking Live, or anything like that. It's so crazy. You walk into the room when he's talking, and it's like you feel the energy shift. Russell: Nobody on earth has presence like that. Josh: It is insane. Like, everyone tells you about it, but then you don't really believe it until you experience it. And I remember, actually, it was in Orlando. The first time, when he was down there or whatever. And I remember, he came... He was in the room... I was in the room when he entered. And energy, obviously, just like when anybody walks on stage, was quite ramped up. But then he just went into his normal talking. And I remember leaving the room. And, most people, you walk in and you feel it? And I remember opening that door, and shutting it, and like... My whole body shifted. Out of this high energy state, into the low energy state. And I felt like, if I was in that room, I could literally go forever. Right? It was just this nonstop source of energy. But what was interesting about Tony is, Tony doesn't really talk about God. Which is super interesting. Like, I don't know what faith Tony is. And maybe he's talked about it in something about that. And so, for me, one of the biggest struggles that I had... Because, well, growing up, and when I first the house, and when I first got into the entrepreneurship, I, like, really wrestled with God. Right? Especially, you know, going through the death of my brother was actually, ironically, the thing that brought me back to God. But I really, really wrestled with that. And so, for Tony, it was like, he's got all this energy, and he's connecting to this higher source, and he's talking about all these things, but he never... He never ties it to anything. He never gives credit to... Well, in this story I'm telling myself at the time, he's never giving credit to this higher... thing. Like, where does that all come from? And then, the more I got to know Tony... Not personally, but through his work, and through watching his videos, and seeing him at Funnel Hacking Live... I'm like, "I don't know what it is that he believes." I've never sat down... And if I ever get to interview him, I'm absolutely asking him that question. But, whatever that is, I don't think it's possible to be incongruent. Because it's... I don't know! It's not of Earth, almost. It's like you're tapping into something that isn't... In in order to operate at that level, you can't be selfish. Like, you know what I mean? Do you sense that with him at all? Like- Russell: Yeah. And he is, I think... And I'm sure you've seen it before. You talk political, and your audience is cut in half, right? Josh Forti: Yeah. Russell: I think for him, he's traveling such a world-global thing. I mean, Tony is Christian. But it's tough because half the world he speaks to are not Christians. Josh: Right. Russell: And so he... He draws that line, because he doesn't want to alienate people. Because he's like, "I'm here to serve God, and..." Josh: Right. Russell: “God didn’t send me to serve a certain group, it’s to serve everybody.” I think... That's my guess, as to why he doesn't anchor that in as a hard thing. Because his audience is so massive. But he definitely, if you ask him, he definitely knows where it's coming from. You know what I mean? Because, wherever he talks about it, he's... You know, the first time he told me, he's like... It's funny, because I'd experienced this myself, and didn't have words to put to it. Because I come on stage, I have a plan, everything's there. I start talking, and all of the sudden, like, something comes through me? And he's like, "It never comes out the way that I plan, but it always comes out perfect." And he's like, "As long as I follow that, it always just works out perfect." Josh: Yeah. Russell: And I've had so many times where I... Again, I start talking about something, I don't know where I'm going. I'm like, "Why am I talking about this?" And then all of the sudden, it's like, "Oh, wow." And there's somebody... Like, that was the thing that- Josh: Connected it. Russell: Shifted it for them. You know what I mean? And I think the more that you tap into that, the more... Again, it comes back to what I talked about before, like, where you do that... God's giving you this thing, and if you have stewardship over it, and you use it, he'll give it to you more and more. And Tony, now, who's been doing it for 40 years... Josh: It's actually super interesting you say that. So, literally, every Tuesday, I meet with Katie. Right? And we have our one-on-one call, and we talk for an hour. And one of the topics of conversation was, I was like, "Katie..." We were actually talking about getting ready for this interview. I was like, "I don't feel nervous. At all." Right? And I'm like, "And I'm getting so many texts and DMS or whatever, like, 'Oh my gosh, are you nervous? What if you mess up?'” And, so many… So many different things, right? And I'm like, "I don't feel any of that. I feel like this is just like, 'All right, cool. I'm flying out to Russell. We're gonna hang out. It's gonna be great. We're gonna go.'" And I'm like, "So, why is everybody else telling me I should be nervous? Right? Like, why is that a thing?" One of the things that she said was like, "Being who you are, being your person, knowing yourself, and, like, doing this..." But one of the things that we talked about was some of the things that you have to accept by faith. And I was really wrestling with this idea of, like, "Am I supposed to be prepared?" Am I? Russell voxed me and was like, "This is the first interview he's ever prepared for." I'm like, "I just read the book. I don't have any notes prepared for him! I'm just gonna show up and talk, right? That's what I do." And she's like, "But that's your superpower. That-" And sometimes you have to just have faith. And she's like, "You prepare 80% of the way, and leave the 20% up to God." And she's like, "And most people are not going to understand that. And, for a lot of people, that's going to freak it out." But she's like, "How many times have you prepared something 100%, you knew every word you were going to say?" And I'm like, "Very little." She's like, "Well, think back to one of the times that you did." I'm like, "Okay," and she's like, "How'd it go? I was like, "Well, terrible! Literally. It was some of my worst presentations. The most prepared I come, the biggest it'll flop." Right? And she's like, "And the least you prepare sometimes, you just walk in confidently and you do your best, turns out amazing." Yeah. Because that's what Tony's talking about, like, "It just comes over you." It's like, if you have faith that, when you show up and become... You are the best version of yourself. You show up the most prepared you can be. And you just fully embrace that, and have faith in the rest? God, the universe, whatever you want to call it, I feel like it just works the rest of it out. You know what I mean? Russell: Understood. Yeah. That's why, before I do anything, I pray before. I prayed before this call. Or, what's it called? Before this interview, before I step on stage every single time. Because a big part of it's like... Without that, what good are your words? You know what I mean? If you're doing it with the Spirit, with God... Whatever you want to call it, you know? For me, it's the Spirit. If you're with the Spirit, then it'll touch people, in a way that you can't just by your words alone. And so I always ask that, and I look for help. And I remember, I think Steven Larson, the first time he was working for me, we did our first event in the room over here. And I remember, before I would do the events myself, he started working for me. And I was in the back here. And I was saying a prayer, and he walked in. He's like, "Oh, sorry!" He's like, "That's cool." I'm like, "What?" He's like, "You pray before you go out there." I was like, "Oh, yeah. I'm not going out there by myself!" Like, you know? I'm not that good. So, I need help, and it shows up when you... pray. Josh: All right, I have two questions that I want to ask you, before we kind of go to rapid-fire, to kind of bring this to a close. I don't know. We could probably go all night, but... Russell: You just want us to keep going all night? Or you want us to go to bed? Josh: How much longer do we go for? Are you guys liking this? Comment down below. Let us know. Give some feedback. Do you like it? Do you not like it? What are your thoughts? We've been going for about three hours. And I figured, at least, it was going to go at least this long. Russell: I guarantee there's going to be some of you guys who are like, "I agree with everything," to be like, "I agree with half," or to be like, "I don't understand what they're saying. I agree with nothing." So- That's okay. There's nothing... Again, our goal was not to motivate, was not to try to convince you guys of anything. That's not my goal. Our goal was to flesh out these ideas, and hopefully you guys come on the journey, and get some cool ideas from it, and see how perceive life. I think what's fascinating is everybody has such a different perspective on life. And so many times, when we hear somebody else's perspective, we get offended. And it's like, "What if you didn't get offended, and just listened to their perspective?" And maybe you don't listen to everything, but you're like, "Oh. I'm going to take that, and that. Those are two things that were really cool for me." Just don't pay attention to the rest of it. Right? Because I'm sure, if you paid attention to everything that we both said, you probably got offended at least 12 times. But if you're just like, "I'm just going to take the gold that's good for me, and then leave everything else on the side," you got a dozen amazing things that you can use, hopefully. So. Josh: All right. And so my next question is, who are you voting for? No, I'm just kidding. Russell: Ugh. Actually, last year, I don't... Four years ago... So, I'm a big Jack Bauer fan, and I bought "Jack Bauer for president" shirts. And then, that whole day, I was Instagramming and Facebooking, "I'm writing in Jack Bauer! I'm writing in Jack Bauer!" And I would have if he was a real human. But, anyway. Josh: That's funny. Who was I just... Oh, Leah, I was talking to her on the way, as we were driving to the airport. We were talking about Joe Rogan. And, because Joe Rogan is... It's so funny, because people... Like, Trump retweeted one of his tweets. And Joe Rogan's a big liberal, right? Like, he even said he was going to vote for Bernie, before Biden became the nominee. And so I feel like a lot of Trump supporters, are like, "Yeah, Joe Rogan's a Trump fan!" Like, Joe Rogan is not a Trump fan. That's not at all what it is. And so we were like, "Well, who do you think he's going to vote for?" And I was like, "If I was a betting man, I would bet that he votes for Kanye. That he wrote him in." Because he does this three-hour interview. And Kanye answers... If you watch the interview... I mean, I know it's three hours of your time, and you'll probably never get to it. But it is a fascinating interview. And he asked... Because he keeps trying to bring Kanye back to like, "If you were president, what would you do?" Because Kanye is like, "I'm going to be president. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when," right? Like, "If I don't win this year, I'm going to for sure win in 2024." Kanye, I love your confidence. But anyway, so, Kanye answers these questions completely differently. And so, anyway. I don't want to run with that. But, my real question for you... So, you can go long on these, or we can go rapid-fire questions on them. Either way. Atlas Shrugged. Got the world on his shoulders. You feel that. How do you deal with that responsibility? Because I'm sure there's been times, I know in my own life, with my three to five little people that I'm managing, and some contractors, I'm like, "Oh my gosh! If I have to take one more thing, I'm just going to explode!" Right? Like, if we don't... So how do you, how do you deal with that pressure, and not... One of the things that I've had to learn how to do is, I don't know if anger is the right word, but deal with not taking out my frustration on somebody else. Right? Like, God bless Leah. She knows me super, super well. And like she knows the moods where it's like, "Don't ask him a question." Like, "Avoid it, and let him cool off," because if you say the wrong thing right now, I'm just going to inadvertently take it out on her. And I've had to learn how to balance that and communicate that. How do you deal with all that pressure, and still... You've got 400 people looking up to you. I know you don't talk to them everyday, but that's a lot. Russell: Yeah. That's just employees. And you have the community, and... Josh: Right. Russell: Yeah, it gets heavy. A lot. And I think it's funny, because, as you read the book, you know, Atlas Shrugged and walked away from the thing... Josh: Right. Russell: And I think for me, I don't want to walk away. You know what I mean? I don't think... That's a big thing. And I think, because the first part is, I was thinking about it, that... Because I'm a big believer that this, for me, is a calling. It's a mantle. This is what I've been called to do at this time in my life. And since, as heavy as it gets... Like, man, think about other people in a different time who had to carry a burden they didn't want to lift, right? There's tons of them. So I think about that a lot. I reached out to other people who were producers, who I know have heavy... You can ask Garrett White. Every time I'm stressing out to the max, I text Garrett, and I'm like, "Hey, man. Life's heavy. Just thinking about you." And he always sends back something about, like, "Dude, do you realize how you've changed my..." just things like that, that just... It's just like, "Okay, it's worth it. Thank you." And then, in Voxer, whenever someone voxes me something, it's like, this success story of, like, "Dude, just so you know, blah, blah, blah." And on Voxer, you can star things. So I have a whole starred menu of all the people that have told me how the fact that I'm carrying this has changed their life. So I'll listen to those, and I'll listen to four or five or six of them. And eventually, when I hear those things, it gets lighter. And so that's a big thing, for me, is just that... Dave, one of my... I'm not sure if Dave's still here or not. But Dave's one of my best friends. Josh: Is he still here? Russell: No. Josh: Dave. Russell: One of my favorite humans. Yeah. And now he's... Anyway. You know, he's carrying a lot of pressure, now, too. Dave... I don't know if you knew this... Dave is the CEO now of ClickFunnels. He's taking over a huge part of my responsibility. And he's carrying out- Josh: Oh, he's into the CEO role? Russell: Yeah. Josh: Or, is he? Or he's moving into it? Russell: He is. Officially, now, yeah. Internally. And he's... Josh: Congratulations, Dave. Russell: And, looking back now, something I should have done five years ago. He's so much better than me at... Than I am. But I see him, I see Todd, I see that people on our team who are carrying weight. And having other people that you're doing this with, besides yourself, helps a lot. So I think that's a big part of it, too, is just... I don't know. If it was just me, like that, eventually I think I'd shrug and walk away. But I know that there's a dozen other people all holding that up as well, and that helps a lot as well, because you know you're not in it alone. I always tell Dave, I'm like, "Man, if I was going to war, I would bring you. Just because I want you in the trenches with me. You know what I mean?" And knowing that I'm not in it alone helps a lot. So I think a lot of times, it's those things. When you're where, when you're doing it by yourself, that's when it gets hard. I try to not... And I think our default human thing is to isolate, and take the pressure and pain. And just for me, as an introvert, I'd rather isolate. But I try, specifically when it gets heavy, just to, like, "Okay, I can't isolate, or I'm going to just get crushed." Josh: Yeah. Russell: And I reach out, and that helps me a lot to be able to sustain stuff. Josh: Next rapid-fire question, if you will. Success takes sacrifice. So, in managing ClickFunnels, obviously you love it. But what things are you not able to do, or do you wish you were able to do more of, that you are not able to because of the role that you play in ClickFunnels? Russell: Yeah. Stuff like this. I feel bad. There's so many people who ask for podcast interviews and things like that. People that I would love to do it with, but just there's not enough time. I miss... When we were first growing ClickFunnels, and starting it, I just remember coming in in the mornings, and being like, "What should we do today?" And thinking about it, and brainstorming. I miss that part. Now you come in, and it's like, "All right, there's 8,000 things you got to do." And it's like, "Okay," and I miss those parts of it. I don't know, I miss... Not being able to turn it off, but I think... I don't know, it would be nice... I think it's Alex Charfen, I'm thinking about. Like, "You don't want to run off into the white wood." There's times where... And this is dorky. This is the cheesiest thing. Remember watching the last... Endgame? Avengers Endgame. Josh: Oh, yeah. Russell: And, at the end, when Iron Man dies, and... What's her name? Pepper Potts. When she's like, "You can rest now." I remember hearing that, and I was just like... I actually started crying. I was just like, "I feel like I want to rest sometime. I don't know how, or when, or-" I desire that. I don't know how, because there's so much stuff and so many things. And I think, I don't know, I long for that moment. Where it's just like, whatever the... Like at the end of the Bootstrap book. I don't know where or when that happens, but- Josh: Right, yeah. Russell: If there's ever a time where it's just like, "Oh. We did it." Like, it's weird, because in wrestling, there was a thing where you get your hand raised, and then you get to rest. Business, I haven't found that. Like, it's just this constant thing. Where you have victories and stuff, but you never... Again, wrestling is like, you'd cut weight a week, you'd train, you'd practice, and you'd go out there, head-to-head. You wrestle. You get a hand-raise, you go out to eat, and you relax. You sleep that weekend. Monday, you get back to work. I don't feel like, in business, there's ever been that. Like, "Ah." Josh: Do you think it exists? Russell: I don't know. I assume when people sell a business there's some of that, but most people I know that have sold a business... It's harder. Because it's like someone else is taking your thing that your identity is tied to. So that scares me too. And so I don't know. That's something, I don't know if it's like... Is it when I die that I'm like, "Ah." Like Iron Man? I don't know... I don't know. Some day. I desire that. I don't know how to get it, but that's something I'm looking at. How do you get that? How do you get that release you get, where you're just like, "Ah, I did a good job." I think Funnel Hacking Live is probably the closest to that? Josh: Yeah. That's what I was thinking. Russell: Right after it ends? But then also, sometimes... Like two years ago, and it's semi-controversial, and I got blown up for, like, three or four days. And I remember I was like, "This sucks!" Like, "I just killed myself, and now I'm defending myself for three days because of some other speaker who said something that I wish they wouldn't have, but they did, and..." And, yeah. Some of the things like that are hard, but, huh. Anyway. Josh: Are we having Funnel Hacking Live this year? Or, next year, I guess? Russell: Some version of it, yeah. We're in a contract battle with Nashville, where we've done it the last two years. I was just to go there again this year. It typically takes us nine months, for Funnel Hacking Live. Obviously, because of everything, we haven't. We're three months out from when it was supposed to be, and there's no way I can fill it in time. Plus, I don't think we were going to come do there. And so we're trying to push that contract for another year, and then doing a hybrid, something in between. So far, we haven't even got the contract, which is... Anyway. So, something will happen. And I'm dying to not announce it yet, because I don't have finality yet. But some version of Funnel Hacking Live- Josh: What? You mean you can't break something right here, live, at- Russell: I've tried my best! To- Josh: 1:00 in the morning, Eastern time? Russell: We'd love to do some kind of hybrid... Something. Essentially, because I spoke at Tony's thing, where he had the big internet… Josh: Yeah. How was that? Russell: It was really cool. And hard. Because, at first, you come out, and you're in this room, and there's faces everywhere, like, "Ah! That's amazing!" But you're speaking at an event. You shift, and you're looking at different people, which is fun. Here, if you look at people, it looks like you're talking like this. So you have to look at the camera. So, you have a million faces everywhere, and you have to look right here? And you can't- Josh: Oh my God! Russell: And everyone's doing weird things, and so it's kind of hard. Because you're like, I have to look here, or else it looks like I'm not connected to you. But there's so much happening that I want to... It was- Josh: Oh. That's crazy. Russell: It was almost... I don't know if "Dizzy" is the right word, but something that we were just like... It was different. It was hard to get used to. But, anyway, he's building a new place that's three times as big. We're just going to have a hybrid, where half is at... half's the stadium. He said something interesting. He's like, "This year is the year of virtual. Next year is the year of hybrid." So I'm trying to figure out our version of that. And I don't know what that is yet. Josh: Hybrid being part live, part... Russell: Yeah. Yeah. Because I never wanted to make Funnel Hacking Live virtual, ever. Because… it’s this thing. But I also want to make it... Yeah, anyway. So, I'm hoping. I'm hoping the next couple weeks have some finality on that contract, so we can start the next... Whatever the process looks like. So it'll be some version of 2021, for sure. Josh: Cool. Russell: Where people who want to travel will be able to travel. Josh: All right. Awesome. Two more questions. Russell: Okay. Josh: One: what is one thing that people don't know about you? What's a Russell Brunson thing that is a pretty defined part of who you are that people don't really know? Russell: I'm public about everything... Josh: Are you, though? Russell: I don't know. That's a good question. Have you learned anything by me since you've been here in our... Josh: Yeah, a couple of things. Russell: Really? Josh: Yeah. A couple of things. Yeah. More from your wife, though. Yeah. She's told... Russell: She's telling you all the good stuff. Josh: Also, your kids are fascinating. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Yeah. I talked to them for probably 10, 15 minutes. Russell: My kids are the coolest. I think my biggest fear in life is that I am not going to be the dad that they need. You know what I mean? I don't know. He's going to be like... I don't know. Being a parent's way harder than I thought I was going to be. I thought I was going to be amazing at it. I'm like, "I can influence thousands of people at once," but the person you care about and love the most? And same to my wife. I think those are my biggest fears. I don't want to mess up the family. And it's weird because, again, it's like all my super powers are like my kryptonite in a family. You know what I mean? Josh: Yeah. Russell: And so I think I struggle with that a lot of times, where it's just like, "Nah, I'm such a good communicator." I think. Communicating messages. And I struggle communicating with people I love the most. So I think that's it, I think. I am scared to death of cats and dogs. I will not touch them. Josh: Really? Russell: Yeah. I won't touch any animal. They're disgusting to me. And I'm allergic to cats, but the way it came about is, when I was in high school, the girl I was dating, she had a cat, and they went out of town. She's like, "You can watch my cat." And I was like, "Okay." So I came in, and the cat's rubbing against me, so I was petting it, because I'm like... I'd never had an animal before, right? And I'm petting it. And my eyes swole shut. For three days. Three days later, they finally opened again, and the white part was all blood-red. And I don't trust animals since then. You can watch me. My in-laws have cats. I walk in the house, and I stand there. I won't sit on the couches, because I'm like... Because I break out an allergies. If like a dog runs up to me, everyone... You'll see I've kind of turned my... Like, "Don't touch me." Anyway, I don't like animals. Unless you can eat them. So there's something people probably don't know about me. Josh: There you go! Who would've guessed, who would've guessed. All right. Last question. Final question. And I asked this to you... I think I have asked this to you before, but now we're here. We're in person. And we're going to talk. I want you to fast-forward to the end of your life, when you are on your deathbed, and I want you to... All your money, and success, and fame, and influence it's all gone. But you've influenced a lot of people. And you get to leave them with a final message that kind of defines... not what you took away from life, but like the message that you feel like you should put on to some... Pass on, for generations to come. What would you want to be defined by? What would you want that message to be, for people to remember you by? Russell: Cool... And I'm hoping... Honestly, my biggest hope. I'm hoping that when we die, we go to our maker. I'm hoping that we get a glimpse of what our life actually did. You know, like the ripple effect? Josh: Fascinating. Russell: You know It's A Wonderful Life? Josh: Yeah. Russell: When he sees what it was like, before and after? I'm hoping all of us get that experience. Because you have no idea what you're actually doing with it. But I'm sure what we're all doing is... Anyway, I'm praying that we get that moment, because that would be... Anyway. I think my message that I- Josh: That would be so cool. Russell: Yeah. Can you imagine that? Josh: Yeah. That'd be wild. Russell: Yeah. Josh: We need to do a podcast just about our faith. That'd be cool. That'll be our next one. Russell: Okay. That'd be fun. Josh: Next one, I'll fly out here for, and we'll just do it, just about- Russell: That'd be fun. Josh: Just about God, and faith. All right. Russell: That'd be fun. But I think for my message, I would leave it as, I think that... Again, just to tie back to what we talked about initially, I think a lot of us start these businesses, or start whatever we're trying to do, whatever we're called to do, you start initially out of greed, right? It's natural, man. We have these desires that make us want to do stuff, right? And I think for me, when I first got started in this business, I just thought it was to make money, and all these kind of things. And I saw, even when it started having an impact, I mean, "This is cool, this is cool." But it wasn't until... I had a coach a few years ago. She's amazing. And I remember she asked me about what I think God thinks about my business. I'm like, "Why would He care about this?" He cares about how I'm living my life, and I'm keeping to the Commandments and stuff, but why would He care about this?" She's like, "Don't you see it?" And I'm like, "See what?" She's like, "You don't see what He's... Who you've become? His hand in your life?" And it never had crossed my mind. And she started helping me understand, like, "This thing that you're doing is not just to make money. This is a calling. This is literal... This is a calling. You were called of God to do this thing, and the ripple effect, and people's lives you're changing... Even though you're helping people to start businesses, build funnels, it seems like it doesn't matter, but it does. Because it frees people, and then they can change people's lives. And the ripple effect is huge." And she helped me understand that day, in such a profound way, that just these things that we're doing, it's a literal calling from God. I think if I was on my deathbed, I would want people to know, like, when you feel that tug, or that nudge, that thing that starts you on this journey, that's not just like, "Oh, it'll be fun. Oh, I'll make some money," or whatever. It's literally God giving you something. This is your stewardship. Do something with it. See what it is. I think, if you realize that... Since I've realized that, it's been different. Now that I know that, it's like, "Okay, I'm going to run as hard as I can. Because this is not just an idea I had. This is a gift." And it's like these tests, like, "What am I going to do with this?" And then when you look at it from that lens, it's like, man, you can do and create... You have more faith in yourself, because it's not yourself, right? I get scared every time I get on stage. I got nervous before this. Like I get... "You're probably confident, because you're on the stage in front of 35,000 people." No! I freak out in front of, like, 20 people! I get so nervous. But I'm like, "I know that I can do it, because this is a calling that was given. And He's not going to give me something that I can't do." And so I think that, if I could help people understand that... I don't know the right way to articulate it, but I think if everybody understood that, how real that actually is, it'd make you run harder, make you work harder, and make you braver, and make you have more courage, more... All the things you need to get that message out. Because you were called. It is a literal calling. And you're probably not worthy of it yet? Like, when you get it, you're not worthy. Like they say, "He qualifies, so he calls," right? You're not qualified right now, but the act of you moving forward is what qualifies you, and what prepares you for the calling. And I think that, if people understood that, man, people would focus so much less on themselves and on their situation and just, like, "All right. Here's the baton. Run." Right? Josh: Yeah. Russell: You're now gonna start running. And you would do it with perfect faith, because you know it's from somebody beside yourself. And I think if people understood that and believed, it would change everything. Josh: Russell. Thank you so much, man. Russell: Yeah, man. Josh: This was so much fun. Russell: It is fun. Josh: I'm so glad we were able to make this happen. Russell: How long do we have to do... Where are we at? Josh: We're at three hours and 18 minutes. Russell: Dang. And we're still here? Josh: Three hours 20 minutes. Yeah. Russell: Dang, a lot of people still here. Josh: Yeah. I've got... Yeah. Quite a bit. Russell: Thanks for having me, man. Thanks for coming all the way out here for this. It was cool. Josh: Yeah. Of course. Yeah. And- Russell: Oh, and we have the comments now. Josh: What do you guys think of the interview? Yes? Good, bad? Thumbs up? Rate it! On a scale from 1 to 10. On a scale from 1 to 10, give us a rating. 1 to 10. Russell: "I used to think Russell was cool, but now I think he's crazy," or, "I used to think Russell was crazy, now I think he's cool." I'm good with all those things. I'm just curious. Josh: Russell, God bless you. God bless your wisdom and mission. Look at this. Thank you so much. This is amazing. Russell: Smileys are here. What's up, Smileys? Josh: Let's go, let's go. What's up, James Smiley? Great stuff. Awesome. I love it, I love it. I could do... A 1000. We got a 1000 out of 10. Russell: Dang! Josh: That's pretty darn good. Russell: It is really good. Josh: 12? 12 out of 10. Russell: Oh, so fun. Josh: Brent? what's up, man? All right, we're going to have to do this again. Sometime when we can sit down and talk about God. That one, we're really gonna have to get prepped for it. Oh, do you know Nick Robbins? Russell: Not off the top of my head. Josh: All right. He's kind of in the ClickFunnels world? He ran an agency, sold it, but still remained a partner, and then got bored, and then came back into it? Anyway. So he and I had, I think, a three-and-a-half-hour conversation about God. So, it's interesting, because he and I actually have a lot of similar beliefs, but he doesn't believe in God. So he's like, "Yeah, I think there's something out there, and it's something intelligent," or whatever. And so we had a... He uses language. And I don't, typically. And so we had all this big, long, huge debate. So, and we've gone there and said that. Russell: That's fun. Josh: Yeah. So. Russell: I think one of the most fascinating conversations I ever had was with Howard Berg, the world's fastest reader? That guy's, like, 30,000... Josh: Yeah. Oh, that's right! He came here, didn't he? Russell: Yeah. A couple of times, since we've hung out. He's read 30,000 books. I was like, "I can ask this guy any question I want." And so I asked him. I was like, "What's your opinion on God?" And I remember he told me, he said... Because, again, religion usually causes fights. Because, like, "Well, I believe-" you know, and it's so cool, because he's like, "Well, most people read one book, and then they base their belief in God on this one book." He's like, "I've read..." I can't remember what it was... "Like, 1,200 books on God, from every perspective." And he's like, "Based on that, this is what I believe." It was just so cool to see that, I think. And I feel like all of us, instead of us being like, "This is my way, this is my way." It's like, just hear... Even if you completely... I completely disagree with so many people's opinion, but I still hear it. Because, again, why do they believe that? There's something. There's a reason why they believe that. I want to understand that. And, anyway. And it's just so interesting. Josh: That's my big thing. My big thing is like... And that's one of the hardest things, for mem is figuring out... My beliefs are always changing. That's probably reason I started the podcast. I just wanted to talk to people. Right? Like, if I'm wrong... I'm so excited whenever someone comes in and is like, "You're wrong, and here's why!" And I'm like- Russell: "Sweet!" Josh: "Oh my gosh! Thank you so much! I know what I'm onto next! Yes!" Right? Where everybody else is like, "I don't want to be wrong. What are they-" I'm like, "If somebody comes in and proves my idea wrong..." Like, my ideas are pretty thought-through. And I'm a really thought-through person. I know why I believe what I believe, not just what I believe. Right? So if somebody can come along and challenge that? That's one of the things that is so attractive to me about Leah. Leah was smart. She challenged even beliefs that she maybe even agreed with. She'd play the devil's advocate, and change, and challenge it. And I'm like, "that's what I like. I want to grow and expand like that." So, anyway. Russell: Yeah. That's awesome. Josh: We'll have to come back and do that, so. All right. Russell. Thank you so much, man. Super, super appreciate it. Guys, as always. Hustle, hustle. God bless. Don't be afraid to think different. And who knows? You might just end up in a chair next to Russell Brunson. So, that'd be awesome. Guys, as always, hustle, hustle. God bless. Don't be afraid to think different. Those of us that think different are going to change the world. By using funnels! And other stuff. Russell: Yeah! Josh: I love you all. And I will see you on the next live stream episode. Take it easy, man. Russell: Bye everybody. Josh: Peace!

Welcome to the first episode in a special 5 part series. Over the course of these next 5 episodes, you’ll get to hear an interview between Russell Brunson and Josh Forti about the book “Atlas Shrugged” by Ayn Rand. But this interview is much more than just them talking about the book, they are actually discussing business, religion, and politics (a subject Russell doesn’t talk about often) as they pertain to the concepts in the book. In this first section, you’ll get to hear the introduction and the basis for how the entire conversation will flow. The first main topic of the book, and the main concept for this episode is greed. Is it bad? Can it be good? Are we born with it? Can we change? So listen in to part one of this unique interview and start reading “Atlas Shrugged” (just read it, the movies aren’t great), so you can be ready for part 2! Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- What's up, everybody? This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets Podcast. And right now, I have a treat for you. Over the next five episodes, I'm going to be taking you in behind the scenes of an interview that I did with Josh Forti about the book, Atlas Shrugged. And some of you guys have read Atlas Shrugged, some of you haven't. Some of you know the premise, some of you don't. And I want to preface this by saying I do not believe in everything taught in the Atlas Shrugged book. I love a lot of it. It talks about producers versus consumers, the looters and the takers versus those in society who are the creators. Right? And there's a lot of things I strongly align with. There's also things that I don't strongly align with. And so I love the book, one of my favorites I've ever read. And so that's the first thing. Number two is, as I finished the book, I remember Josh Forti, who's one of our funnel hackers, he wanted to do the interview with me and I was just like, "I don't have time for interviews." And we're getting closer and closer to the election, we talked on Facebook. We were posting some comments and I was like, "You know what? The interview that I would actually love to do would be about Atlas Shrugged, looking at the whole political thing as it's happening right now and the elections and everything, through the lens of Atlas Shrugged. That'd actually be fascinating for me," because I don't typically, as you know, talk about politics. Right? I do talk about religion, but I don't talk about politics. That's not something I typically go into, but I thought it'd be interesting to look at politics from the lens of Atlas Shrugged. And so in this interview series, it's a lot of fun. We talk about producers versus consumers. We talk about the left and the right. We talk about some political things. Now Josh, just so you know ahead of time, he's very pro-Trump, very much on that side of the discussions during this interview. And this interview, just so you know, took place before the elections. As of right now, I'm still not sure who won. You guys probably will know by the time you're listening to this, but as of when I'm recording this, we don't know, but he definitely leans on the Trump side. I don't really share much of my political beliefs, but you'll get kind of what I believe and why I believe it through the lens of Atlas Shrugged over this interview series. So I hope you enjoy it. It was a lot of fun to do, a lot of great feedback and comments. And again, we talk about stuff I don't typically talk about ever. So this may be a one-time shot to hear inside my mind when it comes to politics, religion, and all through the lens of Atlas Shrugged, the book. So with that said, I want to introduce you guys to the first part of this five-part interview series with me and Josh Forti, talking about Atlas Shrugged. Russell Brunson: Are we live? Josh Forti: We are live. Russell: What's up, everybody? Josh: Oh, my word, with the incredibly ... I don't know if long-waited. It hasn't really been that long. Two months ago. So much expected podcast with Mr. Russell Brunson, himself. How are you doing, dude? Russell: I'm doing amazing, man. Thanks for flying all the way to Boise just for this conversation. Josh: Yeah, absolutely. Dude, this is probably the conversation I'm looking forward to most, certainly in my life thus far, when it comes to business and philosophy and everything like that. Russell: No pressure at all. Josh: Well, it's funny. Your wife said, "Oh, thanks so much for coming out." I was like, "Yeah, it's certainly ... Yeah, because it's inconvenience to me to fly all the way out here." I will say, this is my first ever in-person interview like this. Russell: Oh, really? Josh: Yeah. Russell: We got the microphones set up. Josh: I know. We have- Russell: He’s a professional. I've never done this before. Josh: Literally, we have a soundboard down here. We've got Russell's mic. Can you guys hear us all right? By the way, guys, for all of you listening on audio, we apologize because we're going to answer some comments in the Facebook feed here because we've got everybody down here. By the way, you can see all the comments down here. Russell: What's up, everyone? Josh: All right, guys. If you are live, comment down below. Let us know where you're tuning in from. Let us know if you know Russell or if you know me or if you know both of us or what you're most looking forward to. And Russell, I'm going to be honest with you. We're just going to be super chill. Guys, we have a live audience back here. We've got Dave. Dave's over there. We've got Jake and Nick. Russell: What's up, Dave? Josh: Where'd Jake go? Russell: Jake's working. Josh: Oh, there we go. Jake's working late over there. Russell: Jake, by the way, designed these amazing shirts for this- Josh: Yeah, check us out. Russell: This is my Rearden Steel shirt. This is my Who Is John Galt shirt. Josh: Isn't this great? Okay, but I feel like the back- Russell: Yeah the back I’ll read what it says. It says, "I started my life with a single absolute, that the world was mine to shape and the image of my highest values never to be given to a lesser standard, no matter how long or hard the struggle." So do you guys like these shirts? These are custom made for tonight. And you guys may have a chance to get one of these, but not yet. No, not yet. Josh: Not yet. Russell: We'll let you know when the ability ... If you guys ... Josh: Oh, man. Oh, man. Russell: Anyway, it's going to be fun, but these are custom ... We literally made these today. We needed some sweet shirts…for the show. Josh: Okay, Will says he got your text. Did you send my text to everybody? Russell: Yeah. Josh: Russell on top of it. I sent out a ManyChat, Russell sent out a text. All right, guys. Let's lay some ground rules here. So the quick backstory behind this ... And it's going to be weird. You've got to look in the camera here. Quick backstory behind this is I make a post on Facebook about, what, probably three months ago now or so? Russell: Yeah. Josh: Two, three months ago. And I go, "We need some epic people to interview for the podcast. Who do you know? Tag them all down below." And shout out, Georgie. Georgie comments and goes… "I coached Russell. You should totally interview me." And I was like, "You've got to be pretty gutsy to tag Russell in your comment and tell him you coached him," but then Russell comments back- Russell: And George is an Olympic wrestler. He was on the Bulgarian Olympic team. He wrestled at Boise State with me. He's the man. So yeah. Josh: I commented back. I go, "You coached Russel?" And then Russell goes, "Well, yeah. He coached me. He's awesome. You should totally interview him." And so I said, "Yeah, Georgie, of course, you can come on. We'll do an interview, but Russell, I've got an open invitation to you if you want to come back on." And then you were like, "Sure, if we can talk about…" or no, you didn't say sure. You said, "Can we do it about Atlas Shrugged?" Russell: Yes. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Because I interview a lot about business stuff and- Josh: I'll pull the microphone just slightly. Russell: Yes. I don't do a lot of interviews because ... I feel like I've said, but I don't want to say, but I just finished literally probably the fattest book in the history of books called Atlas Shrugged. And I was geeking out on it and I wanted to talk about it. I didn't have a way or someone to geek out with, other than some of my friends here. And I was like, "If you want to talk about Atlas Shrugged, I'm in." And then you started freaking out. Josh: The funny thing was is I go something to the effect of, "You want to talk about the fall of capitalism because of a boycott, because of a brilliant person and why socialism sucks? Yes, absolutely. I would love to do that," to which you don't give me a yes or no answer. You reply back and go, "Ha-ha. Oh, man. That'd be fun." I'm like, "Talk about an open loop, man. Come on." So anyway, I immediately messaged Russel and I'm like, "You better not be joking because that would just be rude." He goes, "No, I'm totally in." Josh: So about two months go by. You had a bunch of stuff. You had some fun stuff during that time, hanging out with- Russell: Lot of stuff is happening. Josh: Tony Robbins? Russell: Yeah, Tony, man. And it's been chaos the last couple months, not going to lie. And as we got closer and closer to the election, I'm like, "This is an interesting conversation, post-election, but I think it's more interesting before election." And so was it two days ago, three days ago, you're like, "I will fly to Boise to record this." Josh: Yeah. Russell: "What day do you have open?" I'm like, "Only Wednesday night." And now we're here. Josh: Yeah. It was Friday afternoon. We were Voxing back and forth and you're like, "Dude, we've got to get this done before the election." I'm like, "Before the election? Oh, my word." I said, "All right. Sounds good. What time do you have available?" And that's when I was like, "You know what? I was going to ask you creatively, but I'm just going to ask you. How about I fly out to you?" And you're like, "Heck, yeah." Josh: So guys, that's the backstory. That's how we got here. And so this is an open conversation about Atlas Shrugged and kind of everything that encapsulates. I think we'll talk about some religion, some politics, kind of both sides of the aisle there and open it up. Russell: Fun. Josh: Anything else you want to add to that? Russell: The only other thing I would add is, because this book, by the way, if you haven't read it yet, is very polarizing. There are people on both sides of it. Russell: And I think both of us wanted to stress ahead of time that I do not believe in everything in this book. A lot of things in this book, I do believe in. And it's interesting. One of the things I want to dive deeper in in this conversation, I'm excited for and I told you not to do Voxer. I was like, what's fascinating to me is not, "This is what we should believe." What was fascinating to me as I was reading this book, and we'll get into the premise of the book for those who haven't read it, but the big thing is producers and going out there and creating stuff and doing things, which is what entrepreneurs do. Right? And it gets in the part of greed is good. You should be greedy because it's going to create all these amazing things, which then the byproduct's really good. Russell: And part of me is like, "Yes, yes, yes, yes," and then part of me, as a believing Christian, I hear this message I believe in and then I hear in my mind ringing Christ, talking faith, hope, charity, and love. And I feel like they're these two polar opposite things, which by the way, we dive into politics a little bit. There are two polar opposite sides, one that believes one, one believes the other. Russell: And I think that there's a happy medium and that's what I want to dive deep into just because I don't want anyone thinking, "Oh, Russell and Josh just believe this," or whatever. It's like, no, there's sides of this and I empathize on both sides. I want to talk about both of them because they're fascinating. Anyway, I've toyed writing a boy about this concept, these two things. Anyway, I think it should be fun to first time verbally ever talk about this stuff. So I'm excited for it. Josh: Yeah. And I would just echo that, as well. I think one of the things that often happens with me, with my ... So funny. You, who never, ever talks about politics and me who doesn't know how to get on Facebook without arguing about politics, colliding here, but is that a lot of times I get grouped into, "Oh, you like this reading. Therefore, you believe with everything." "You read this book," or, "You support this person," whether it's a political figure or a book or something like that. It's like, by saying that you enjoyed that or that you learned a lot from it, that all of a sudden you suddenly believe everything in it. And that is not the case at all. And I've gotten a lot of criticism from people that are like, "How could you possibly like Atlas Shrugged?" And I'm like, "Well, this is the conversation that we're going to have." Josh: So real quick, before we dive in, I'd be curious ... I want to do a poll real quick. How many of you guys have actually read the book? I'm curious to know. Hold up here. There's two different versions of it, but if you've read the book, just comment below the number one if you have read the book, the number two if you have not read the book. I think that will just kind of give us a poll. We've got 200, 300 people. Russell: And if you listened to the audiobook, we'll count that as reading, too, either way. Josh: Yeah. Not if you know the premise of the book, but actually have read the book and have a deep understanding of it, or not deep understanding. But have like… Russell: Understand the stories them in. Josh: Yeah, things like that, because then it'll be interesting. Russell: One is read. Josh: One is read, two is not read. Oh, more ones than I thought was going to. Russell: Yeah. Me too. Josh: Russell's book is so underrated. Russell: We're 50/50. Josh: Ooh, yeah. I think we should take a poll at the end; what's better, Atlas Shrugged or Dotcom Secrets? That's the real question we should be asking right now. Russell: That would be good, that would be good. Josh: Okay. So we have a lot of people that have not read it, so we'll have to go into the premise of that. Okay. Russell: Are you ready to get started? Josh: Yeah. I'm ready to rock and roll with it. Russell: Oh I’m ready. Josh: Okay. Guys, we want to lay a couple ground rules. Okay? Because I don't know what it's like to be Russell, Russell doesn't know what it's like to be me, but I think we both have a mutual understanding that we could very easily be taken out of context here. Josh: I think the goal, and then I want you to kind of expand upon this, is we're not trying to take a side here. We're trying to have an open discussion about it. This could very easily turn into something that's like, "Why did you vote for Trump? Why Biden sucks, why Biden's great, why Trump sucks," something like that or certain religion. We're not trying to convince you of anything, really. In fact, this is honestly more of a conversation for us. And we're like, "We think it'd be cool to stream it out to a bunch of people because there's a reason for me to fly out here and do that," but the purpose of this is to have an open discussion about the book, the premise of the book, an understanding of it, and then honestly we're probably going to be in our own little world over here. Josh: And we want you guys to interact and comment and engage and push your questions. And we'll go back through it, obviously, but the purpose of this is not to try to convince anybody of anything. It's simple to, at least from my perspective, shed a new perspective and give the perspective of somebody who, for those of you that don't know who Russell is, the founder of a ... ClickFunnels is a billion-dollar company, SaaS company. You have 400 employees? Russell: Yeah. Josh: 400 employees. So from that perspective and from my perspective, to open your eyes to a new perspective of what we like, what we don't like and, like I said, more of a conversation for us. Russell: Yeah. I think that's good. And I think a big thing that we will talk about ... Our goal is not to convince you of anything. In fact, I think I'm still convincing myself of both sides. I believe both these two things that seem contradictory, but I think there's a middle ground and I'm excited to explore it. So it'll be fun. Josh: Cool. So I think we got to- Russell: Talk about the premise of the book? Josh: Yeah, we've got to talk about the premise of the book. Russell: I might have a little mini statue behind me that might help. Can I grab that? Josh: Ooh, yeah. Russell: Okay. So folks that have not read Atlas Shrugged, I didn't know what the premise was at first, but this is the story of Atlas. Some of you guys know Atlas was cursed to have to carry the entire weight of the universe, entire weight of the world upon his shoulders for forever. Right? And so this is where the premise of the book ... All of us, people who are listening to this might guess that you are a producer. Right? Otherwise, you probably wouldn't be listening to me or to Josh. I attract, I teach, I coach, I help producers, entrepreneurs, people who are trying to change the world. Right? Russell: I'm curious, how many of you guys have ever felt this pressure. Right? When you feel like you literally have the entire weight of the world upon your shoulders. And if you haven't, it's time to become a producer. That's first off. Second off, I can empathize, though. There's so many times, you can ask Dave or any guys on my team, there's days I come in, I was like, "I feel like I'm going to crack." There is so much weight to carry this around. And I'm guessing most of you guys have felt that. It could be with your family, could be in work, could be business, whatever, but you've felt the weight of the world. Right? Russell: So this is what Atlas had to hold. Right? And so the premise of the book, Atlas Shrugged, is what would happen if the producers, the people that are carrying the weight of the world on their shoulders, what happens if they were to go on strike and they were to shrug their shoulders and be like, "Meh." In fact, should I read your tile you gave me here? Josh: Yeah. Russell: So Josh, as a gift today, gave me some amazing tiles. This is a quote, actually, from the book, Atlas Shrugged, talking about this. It says, "If you saw Atlas, the giant holds the world on his shoulders. If you saw that he stood, blood running down his chest, his knees buckling, his arms trembling, but still trying to hold the world aloft with the last of his strength, and the greater of his efforts, the heavier the world bore down on his shoulders, what would you tell him to do? Just shrug." That's things like, what happens to society when us, the producers, when we no longer want to carry the weight of the world? We shrug and we walk away from it. Russell: And the book is a story about that. What happens when these producers start disappearing and they start leaving, they start going on strike? You see society, what happens when the producers disappear. Josh: Yeah. It's interesting because there is no one named Atlas Shrugged in the book and there's nobody named Ayn Rand in the book. And so there's concepts that she's writing about outside of that and it's this ... How do you summarize a 1200-page book? Basically, in the book, there is a main character by the name of Dagny. Russell: Oh. Yes. Josh: Oh. Russell: I was going to say John Galt, but you're right. Yes, Dagny’s the main character. Josh: Sorry. For the first two thirds of the book, the main character is a woman by the name of Dagny. And basically, she is one of the producers of society. And she's not the head boss of the railroad, but she's basically the person that runs this railroad company. And it is written, what, 1950 is when this was- Russell: Yeah. Josh: So 1950, and it's basically this forecast into the future of a government that is basically forcing super, super strict restrictions onto private businesses and making them do things, kind of like today in America, but super, super government overreach in a lot of ways. And so Dagny is trying to keep the world afloat, more or less, by getting the railroads done on time and getting orders shipped. Josh: And I'm super oversimplifying, but around her, all the people that she works with that owned all these other companies that she would buy copper from or she would buy steel from or buy the railroad track from or buy the coal from, all of a sudden all these head people ... Imagine people like Russell, all his friends just start disappearing. Imagine Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos and Russell all just started disappearing. Right? That's what's happening all around her and she doesn't understand what's happening to them because just, one day, it's up and it's gone. Josh: And so the premise of the first two thirds of the book is showing this story of this producer who is living in this world of super government tyranny, overreach that's super, super controlling and she's watching all of her friends disappear and she doesn't know why. Would you say that's a pretty good explanation of it so far? Russell: Yeah. And every time they disappear, they leave behind a note or something that says, "Who is John Galt?" That's this theme throughout the book, is who is John Galt? Who is this John Galt person that makes all the producers disappear? Josh: And Dagny has no idea who John Galt is. Right? She doesn't even know, actually, for awhile that John Galt's actually even a real person. And so once she does find out that John Galt is probably a real person, John Galt becomes her sworn enemy because she doesn't know who he is or what he's doing. All she knows and all she associates with is that John Galt is taking away all these producers of society and is making her life harder because ... Imagine you being an entrepreneur and all of your entrepreneur friends that you buy stuff from and that you send all your people to, your referrals and everything, you buy all your supplies from, imagine they're all just disappearing and you think it's because of this one guy who's taking them all away and you don't know what's happening to them. Obviously, they'd become your sworn enemy. Josh: So for the first two thirds-ish of the book, that's kind of this premise of they're painting this really, really vivid story of the ... what are they called, the great thinkers of society? Yeah, the great minds of society, basically disappearing. And Dagny and ... there's a guy by the name of Hank Rearden, I think. Russell: Yeah, Rearden Steel. Josh: Rearden Steel, yeah. So Dagny and Hank Rearden are the two major ones left right before the big plot twist happens and you're like, "Oh," and then you get introduced to John Galt. I'm going to let you explain John Galt now. Russell: Oh, man. Okay. So that's the first two thirds of the book. By the way, there's movies. Don't watch them. They'll ruin the book. The movies were really bad. Josh: Yeah. Read the book. Russell: So two thirds into the book, she starts trying to figure out this mystery of who's John Galt. She ends up finding him and turns out that he has been going around and getting all these producers to go on strike, convinces them to, "Look, it's not worth fighting for anymore. All your incentives are gone. Let's leave. Let's go on strike," and they leave. And John Galt's trying to get her to leave and she's like, "I can't. I have to do everything in my power." The last third of the book is her leaving John Galt's presence and going back and trying to figure out how to do this thing as she's watching just government regulations getting harder, and harder, and harder, and harder to the point where everyone just has to disappear. Russell: But one of the things John Galt and the people say, "When the lights of New York go out, then we'll come back and we'll rebuild society from the ground up, after the looters and the people are gone." Josh: And that's basically how the books ends is lights of New York go out and then- Russell: For such a long book, all of a sudden it just ends and you're like, "Oh, I need one more chapter. Come on. Just end it." Josh: And we're never going to get it. Ah. Russell: Well, maybe I'll write it. Josh: Yeah. So that's the storyline of the book, but what I think we really both want to focus here is kind of the premises and the overarching ideas that the book presents, and capitalism versus socialism, and I think we'll talk religion and politics and kind of everything that’s in that, but I kind of want to, if it's all right with you, I kind of want to turn the conversation more towards us now and just kind of start geeking out just about that. Josh: So guys, we'll obviously go back and ... By the way, we want all your comments if you're ... Actually, comment below right now. Where are you watching? Are you watching it on YouTube? Are you watching it on Think Different Theory page or are you watching it on Russell's page? Comment down below because we went to multiple different locations. So we have a bunch of different people tuning in for everything. So just comment down below. Leave your comments, leave your questions, smash the like button, love button, share this out, and we're going to be here. Josh: All right, Russell. What's up? Russell: Hey, man. Josh: All right. Dude, I've been wanting to, and I hate this terminology, but just pick somebody's brain like yours for the longest time. And this book, oh, my gosh. So what do you like about the book? What was your favorite thing? Russell: Yeah. Well, let me tell the backstory. So 2008 is when the market crashed last time, right? Josh: Yeah. Russell: And I didn't realize that, that year, over 500,000 copies were sold organically by people talking to me about it, talking about, "Everything's she's prophesying is happening right now." And so, back then, I remember all my entrepreneur friends, like, "You have to read this book." It was the word-of-mouth buzz that sold 500,000 copies of a book has been ... The author died, whatever, 30 years earlier. There's not active marketing out there. It's crazy. And everyone's talking about it, like, "What's happening in this book is happening in 2008." And it was just this prophecy that was being fulfilled. Russell: And so everyone in 2008 was telling me to read this book. I remember buying it and I was like, "This is a really, really big book." And it took me awhile to get into it and I could never get into it. I read the first, I don't know, first 200 or 300 pages four or five times. And then, finally, this summer, one of my very first trips where I didn't bring a laptop since my marriage. So my wife is very proud of me. Josh: Dang. Russell: And so as I was leaving the office, I grabbed this book. And I picked it up and I was like, "I have no computer, but I've got this." And usually, I bring 20 books just because I know I'm going to read. I just brought one and I was like, "I'm going to do this. I'm going to be forced. I'm on a lake for a week and a half with my kids and all I can do is read this book." So I brought it, got the audiobook, as well. It's funny, I do the same. I listen to the audiobook and I read along so I can listen to it way faster, that way. And I started going through it. It took me a little while. She does such a good job of character development at the very beginning, it took awhile to get into it. Josh: Yeah, for sure. Russell: And then the story hits and then you're just like ... And you couldn't- Josh: It's like thing, after thing, after thing. It's so quick. Russell: Oh, yeah. And it got crazy. So for me, it was interesting because I think, if I would've listened to it 10 years ago or read it 10 years ago, I had never experienced any of the things they talk about in this book. Right? Josh: Now you don't have to worry about it. Yeah. Russell: Even better. I never experienced government regulations and things like that or just those kind of things. And as ClickFunnels has grown from me and Todd to our first member, to our first thousand, 10,000, 100,000 members, 400 ... I don't know how many employees, a lot, 400 plus employees. As it's grown, it's been crazy because you would think all we'd be focusing on here inside ClickFunnels is the next feature in the app, next thing. Russell: And there's the year where we had to spend an entire year just refactoring the software for GDPR compliance. We have regulations that come in on taxes and this. It's constant where most of the battles we fight at ClickFunnels right now is not about, how do we make this thing better for the customer? It's, how do we protect our customers from the government? It's crazy. And just so many regulations and things. Russell: And so I have been feeling this pressure. Some of you guys may have seen my interview I did with Tony Robbins ... not interview, but Tony Robbins did an intervention with me last year in Fiji. Josh: Yeah. That was fascinating, by the way. Russell: I'm so glad we captured that. It was a really cool moment in my life, but if you listen in there, I talked about ... He's like, "Well, what do you want to do?" And I was like, "I don't know, but the pressure ... I love the same, so I love everything I'm doing. I love the people we're serving, but there's these other pressures that aren't the game, that aren't the people, that they just get so heavy sometimes where it makes me want to just walk away." And again, as I'm reading this book- Josh: You hadn't read the book at the time. Russell: I hadn't read it yet. Josh: Yeah, okay. Russell: As I'm reading this, it's like- Josh: Did you know anything about the- Russell: I did not know the premise, no. Josh: You knew nothing. Okay, okay, okay. Russell: I didn't know what Atlas Shrugged meant. I was just like, "Oh, it's Atlas ..." I didn't know ... And it was like, when I read this title, like, "What would you tell Atlas if this was happening? Just shrug." And I was like, "Oh, that's why they called it Atlas Shrugged." And then I remember vividly feeling the pressure of this calling and how heavy it is. Russell: And there's so many times I wish, like, "Okay, sometimes it'd be so nice to walk away or to shrug or whatever." And so I instantly, with Dagny's character, I was like ... I feel that with Hank Rearden. I had so much empathy and understood their characters because I feel that so many times. Hank Rearden just wanted to invent his steel and put it out. That's all he cared about, right? For me, funnels are my art. I can't draw, but funnels, that's my art and entrepreneurship. That's my art. And so I just want to do my art. That's it. He just wanted to create steel. And it's all these other things and it's just like, "I just want to do my steel. I just want to do my art. Why do I have to deal with all this other stuff?" Russell: And so as I'm reading this, I just had so much empathy for the characters because I felt like I was the characters, even though it was weird because it's railroads and stuff like that and I'm internet, but I think that's why I really got into it. And then I got just curious, what happens? How does this story end? Be I'm in the middle of it. And depending who's listening, you may or may not have felt some of these pressures. As you grow, you feel them. Russell: It's interesting. As ClickFunnels has grown, we've talked about the pressure that I feel today would've crushed me five years ago. Right? And so you have to go through this thing where you build capacity to handle the next set of pressure, and build capacity, and build capacity. And nowadays, stuff happens daily that's just like, "Man, that would've destroyed me five years ago." Russell: And so I think, if you guys haven't felt that, as you grow, as you continue to try to get your message out and try to grow your businesses, whatever, the bigger you get, the more that pressure comes. Josh: Do you think…with that ... And I want to continue that because it's such a good conversation, but with the pressure, the things that are happening now daily that would've wrecked you five years ago or three years ago, whatever it was, do you think it's good, though, that they would've? Is it good that, at the capacity that you understood, that you took those things seriously then or would it have been better for you to just be in this mindset? I know it's not possible, but looking back, if you could snap your fingers and back then would've had the mental capacity to just ignore all those things and go up, would that've been a good thing? Or the fact that you went through all those things, does that help? Russell: The going through it is what makes you worthy of the things, right? Josh: Being able to… Russell: It makes you ready for it. Otherwise, just like lifting weights, if you try to squat 800 pounds, that's what it feels like. Right? Your legs buckle and you die, but because you went through that thing, you're able to have the capacity to hold the weight. Josh: Okay. Russell: Yeah. So anyways, the thing for me that was the big thing is reading this. And so I was just fascinated because I was like, "This is kind of my story. How does it end?" Josh: How long did it take you to get through it? Russell: I'd say about two months. I got a lot of it done on the boat, and then I got into biking for a little while, so I was listening to it while I was biking. Josh: That's right, I remember that. Russell: I just kept biking and biking, like, "One more chapter, one more chapter." I'm in really good shape because of it. It's funny because one of the premises ... And they don't say greed is good, but there's a chapter, I think it's called Greed. And I remember, if you guys have ever seen Wall Street, Gordon Gekko talks about, "Greed is good," and I never understood that premise. Right? In the book, they start talking about that, how greed is what drives this whole thing. Is it called Greed? Josh: I'm trying to find it. Russell: Utopia of Greed, yeah. Josh: And then Anti-Greed. So Utopia of Greed and then Anti-Greed. Russell: So what's interesting is ... because all of us are taught that greed is bad, right? That's just, like, you shouldn't be greedy. That's, I think, a principle that's instilled in most of us, but then I think about, for me, when I started this business, why did I start this business? I wanted to make money. That's greed, right? And you think about any of us, we go through a phase in all of our lives that greed is the driving factor. Right? When I wanted to become a good wrestler, I wanted to become a good wrestler. It was greedy. I went and got coaches and spent all my time and it was a very selfish time in my life. Not that it's bad, but it's a very greedy time. Right? Kids, when they're first born ... I love my kids. They are so ... not in a bad way, but they're greedy. It's about them. Right? Josh: Right. Russell: And it's this growth phase where growth ... You have to be greedy. You're in the growth phase. Right? When you're trying to learn, you're sucking things and you're learning and you're not contributing it. You're just learning, you're growing. And it was interesting because, as I'm going through this, I'm like, the greed is what got me into business. Right? And it's what got these things started and then the byproduct of that is jobs were created and things ... All the byproduct of it is ... I think, in the book, how it justifies it, Hank Rearden going after ... he wanted to build his steel and make a bunch of money, created tens of thousands of jobs and changed the world and changes all these things. Russell: And so the premise of the book is that greed is this driving force that gets you moving. And it is. If you think about any aspect of your life, from sports to education, to business, to everything, it starts with greed. Now, we'll go deeper into this. I don't want everyone to think that I'm just into this for the greed, because there's a transition point. We'll talk about it in a minute, but there's a transition point from growth to contribution that happens, but that's in the book where it starts talking about that. Russell: And I remember I was on the greenbelt here in Boise, riding my bike with James P. Friel, listening to that chapter. And I was trying to think, "Is this true? Did I get started because of greed?" And it's like, yeah, I didn't start a business because I wanted to change the world. Eventually, that happened, but it wasn't like it was ... Greed was the driving force that moved me forward. I think it moves all of us forward such a long time. And as I was listening as I'm riding my bike, I'm like, "Yes, I understand this," and the other half of me was like ... I started thinking about my spiritual upbringing. Right? Josh: Yeah. Russell: I'm very Christian. I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints and I started thinking about Christ and his teachings, which are, honestly, the opposite of that. Right? It's like- Josh: Really the polar opposite. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Which it's funny, whenever you say that, people are like, "You know, Jesus was a socialist." I hear that a lot. I'm like, "You need to read the Bible." Anyway, but I think a lot- Russell: But he definitely is way more liberal leaning, 100%. Josh: Right, right. And I think that that's where Republicans, conservative, traditionally on that side of the aisle, fiscally Republicans get into trouble is where we're like, "Yeah, we're Christians, but we also want to get rich," and they never talk about all this other ... People like to use Christianity, I feel like, when it's convenient. Russell: We call it cafeteria Christians. Josh: Right. Russell: They pick and choose the things off the menu they want. Josh: Right. And then they go through and do it. So I definitely want to dive further into that, but continue that. Russell: Yeah. So that started this question in my head, though, of just, so is greed bad then or is it good or where does it fit in the whole grand scheme of things? Because it is something that's instilled in all of us from birth. Right? When you're born, you're a baby, if you didn't have greed, you would just die. Right? It's me. I need food, I need love, I need shelter. It makes you cry, which creates people coming to you. Greed is a driving force that's instilled in humans from birth, right? When we come here, greed is what helps us survive the first part of our life. Russell: And first, I was having this conundrum. I'm just like, "God, is this book evil? I don't know what to do with myself." Right? But all good things in my life that happened happened initially because the seed of greed started me on motion, started me in momentum. And then I started thinking, if you've read the Expert Secrets book, which- Josh: If you haven't, come on. Russell: If you haven't, you must hate money. Come on. No, but in the beginning of Expert Secrets book, I talk about this concept, as well, where as an expert, there's two phases to go through. The first is a growth phase. Right? I want to be an expert in whatever. You go through and you're a consumer, consuming everything. And that's greed, right? And then there's this transition point where, eventually, you keep trying to grow, grow, grow, grow, trying to learn everything, going there. I'm listening to all the podcasts, I'm reading all the books, I'm growing, growing, growing. And eventually, there's this point. I remember feeling it in multiple parts of my life. In wrestling, I felt it. In business, I felt it where you can't continue ... The ability to grow through consumption slows to almost a halt where you can't continue to grow. Right? Russell: I've shared this story. I think I shared it in the book with wrestling. I was a really good wrestler. I was a high school state champ. I took second place in the nation. I was an All-American. And my senior year, I got invited to go to a wrestling camp. My coach was like, "Hey, do you want to come coach wrestling this summer?" And I was like, "Why would I do that? What's in it for me?" Josh: Before you go on here, I want to ask you something. So you're riding your bike, wrestling with this whole greed thing. Is this the first time that you've thought about greed in this way? Russell: 100%. Josh: And this is, what, six months ago? Russell: Not even that. Maybe four months ago. Josh: So you've built most of what ClickFunnels is today and now this is the first time you're really sitting down and wrestling with this idea of greed and is it bad, is it good, what's the balance there and stuff like that? Russell: Yeah. Josh: That's fascinating. Russell: Yeah. It never crossed my mind, really. And then it became this thing where it bothered me because I'm like, "Oh, my gosh. I don't want to be a greedy person." You know what I mean? Josh: Right. Russell: I'm like, "I don't feel like I am," but I was stuck. I couldn't figure that out. Right? And so I'll rewind to the wrestling story because I think it will set it up. Josh: Yep. Russell: But my senior year, again, I'd been growing as a wrestler. I was going to camps. I was getting coaching. I was greedy. I was sucking up everyone's brainpower I could and I became a really good wrestler because of it. And then my coach asked me to go coach a wrestling camp. So I say yes, go to the wrestling camp, and I remember he's like, "Okay, I need you to teach ..." My best move… I'm really good at tilts. So for all the wrestlers out there, I'm really good at cheap tilts. And he's like, "Teach these kids how to do a cheap tilt." Russell: And I was like, "Okay." So I walk out, there are like 30 kids. I'm like, "Yeah, you do this. You just do it like that." And they all look at me and they go try and they try to do a cheap tilt and they all just fall apart. I'm like, "Are you guys dumb? This is not that hard." I'm like, "Come back in, come back in. No, you did it all wrong. This is how you do it." I show them again, like, "Go do it." They go back out, nobody can do it. Russell: And then, all of a sudden, I'm like, "Gosh, they're missing something. What is it?" So I have them come back in and I start breaking down, "Hey, for the move to work, your hips have to be here, your legs have to be here." I start walking through all the things. And as I'm doing that, I start realizing, "Oh, the season why I'm able to do this is because of this," and I started realizing what I was doing as I was teaching people. And as I taught it to people, then the kids started doing it and they got better and better. And all of a sudden, I started realizing, "Oh, my gosh. This move works because of this." Russell: And now that I was aware of the situation, now I was able to make these tweaks and stuff on my own. And I realized that, but coaching the kids, that was the next-level growth. It was a shift from selfish greed growth to contribution. So that's why I started coaching camps every year and that's why I went from slowing down my progression to, all of a sudden, it sped back up again by shifting from growth to contribution. Okay? Russell: And so I think the same thing happens in business, right? I got in business because that seed of greed is in us. It gets us moving, gets us in the momentum. And some people never get out of that. Some people live their entire lives chasing greed and they die and it's a tragedy, but I think for most people, there's this transition point. And I don't know where it happens. It happens different spots for everyone where, all of a sudden, you realize ... you make the money, you started the business, and you realizing how unfulfilling that is. You're tapping out. You're like, "I'm not growing anymore. I thought I wanted money, but I don't. I want growth. That's what we're here on this planet for, is to grow as humans. Right? Russell: You don't get that and, all of a sudden, you realize money's not fulfilling and then you start seeing the other people you're contributing to and you're helping. Then it shifts to ... We hear people talk about, "This is about impact, about growth, it's about helping other people," and that's that transition. That's charity, love. That's pure love of Christ. It's that transition, but greed is the seed that gets us moving, right? And so there's this handoff. It doesn't happen all the time. And are you guys cool if I share scripture stuff? Because- Josh: 100%. Russell: -all this stuff is scriptural. It's not just- Josh: They don't get to decide, Russell. I get to decide. It's my podcast. You can talk about whatever. Russell: If you hate scripture, just close your ears and go, "Blah, blah, blah." So I wrote down some scripture. This is a scripture because it illustrates this point. I think it's so good. Josh: Also, I just want to say, Russell Voxed me and he said that this is the first episode of a podcast that he's ever prepared for. When you said that, I'm like, "Ha! I was the first for something for Russell. Let's go." Russell: I want to be ready. Okay. So this is a scripture. It says, "For the natural man is an enemy to God and has been from the fall of Adam and will be forever and ever." I'm going to stop right there. Okay. So natural man is an enemy to God. Why is that? We're born. We have this greed inside of us, so the natural human is the enemy of God because we're chasing after greed. Right? But God gives us that seed because it creates momentum. It creates motion. It creates us doing something. Right? Russell: And then it says in here, it says, "For the natural man is an enemy to God and has been from the fall of Adam, will be forever and ever," and then this is the transition point, "unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit." So he's greedy forever, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and puteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ, the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father." Russell: So growth is the seed. It's the natural man. It's the thing we have that's ... It's good, right? God gives it to us because it gets us to do stuff, gets us to learn, gets us to not die in our crib because we need love and attention and to get fed. Right? So then it gets us off our butts, off the couches, us being producers that gets us moving. And if we're not careful, though, the natural man will destroy us. You see so many people who made tons of money and they destroyed themselves in their lives because they don't do that second thing, which is, "Unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit." Russell: That's the thing saying this is not about money, this is about the impact. Look at the people you're changing. And it shifts, right? If you make that shift, all of a sudden, now this thing you’re creating is not about greed, it's like, "Oh, my gosh ..." I remember, for ClickFunnels, when I had that transition was when I started seeing Brandon and Kaelin Poulin. I started seeing the ripple effect of their business. And I can name hundreds of people, person, after person, after person. Russell: I was like, "This isn't about money. This is about the ripple effect of what we've created in each person's life." Now, that's charity. That's love. Now the mission isn't about money. We don't care about the money. We keep score with money, but that's the mission, is the people's lives and the impact. And I think that's that transition where greed is the thing that gets us moving, but if we don't have that ... Russell: I think that's happened in the book. We talked about it. You said this at my house earlier, like, "A lot of people in the book seem like they have a miserable life." And it's like, yeah, because they never yielded to the spirit. They never made that shift. It was all greed to the point where they let everything collapse as opposed to the charity side of things. Josh: Yeah. So one of the things about the book ... And I'm sitting on the plane on the way over here and I'm like, "How do I articulate this?" Because that's always the hardest thing. You have this idea in your head and you're like, "How do I get it out and explain it in a way that somebody else can be like, 'Yes, I understand that?'" I'm going to go kind of political here for a second. I'm going to bring it back, too, specifically to the book. So I am pretty vocally a conservative. Right? I'm a blatant Trump supporter, very much so conservative when it comes to everything fiscal, but I call myself a libertarian because I actually think that I lean left on a lot of social issues. I think the government should stay out of gay marriage. Right? There's a lot of things that I lean left on, but when it comes to money and finances and things like that, I lean to the right. Josh: But the reason I lean to the right and I typically go with the right is because I like what the left is trying to do in concept. It's like, okay, there's a bunch of people that are really truly in need. I agree. We need to help them. The problem is is that the way they go about doing it, I so radically disagree with it. It's against everything that I stand for. Right? I'm like, it's not that I disagree with what you want to do, it's I disagree with how you want to do it. Josh: What's interesting is I feel like, in this book, I feel like it's the opposite. I actually don't agree with why they're doing it. This concept of ... I mean, Hank Rearden says it over and over again, "Everything that I do is for profit." That is it. Even to his friends. He took a bullet for John Galt, right? He gets shot. And John Galt thanks him for it. He goes, "You know I only did it because it's what I wanted to do, right?" Literally saves a guy's life. Josh: So it's all about what he wants and only for him and that's it. And it's profit and money and dollars. It's not about everything that he helps. And I'm like, I disagree with that premise, but what that leads to, I actually do like. And I feel like it's flipped compared to the world I'm living in now. Half the stuff that the Democrats ... I hate to… oh I want to go into politics so bad… Russell: Left and right. Josh: Yeah, the left. Guys, we're going to say left and right. Generalized here, right? Oh, my god, but generally speaking. And so when it comes to the whole greed issue, I'm like ... It's interesting to hear your perspective because I never, even throughout the book, I'm like, "Greed is a bad thing." And hearing your perspective, I'm like, okay, I understand what you're saying, but is it greed or is there some other driving ... If I were to ask you a year ago ... When were you in the heart of ClickFunnels, like a year and a half ago, two years? There was a time of your life when all you ... I know all you do is ClickFunnels, but when- Russell: It's the last six years of my life. Josh: But you know what I mean? Wasn't there a year or two period in there, in the growth phase, where 100% of everything you do was just ClickFunnels, ClickFunnels, ClickFunnels. It felt like you were going nonstop. It feels like you're a little bit more balanced now. Maybe not, but from the outside perspective looking in, it does. Anyway, during that time of growing ClickFunnels, before you read that, would you have described yourself as greedy? Russell: No. Josh: What would you have described yourself as? What's the word? Russell: I don't know. That's a good question. I was always trying to create stuff. It's art for me, right? So it's like I was trying to create stuff. I think, initially, I was creating for myself as opposed to, "Oh, my gosh. I create this for myself, but look what happens to the people." Josh: What point was that shift for you, though? Russell: You can see it in my marketing, by the way. And by the way, for those who are greedy capitalists who only care about money, it actually is a better marketing way, too. My marketing went from- Josh: For all you greedy capitalists out there, switch to being a contributor, you’ll make more money. Russell: Well, think about it. My marketing is always like, "Here's Russell. Here's how much money my funnel made. Here's how much ..." It was me talking about me all the time. And then I realized, "Who cares about me? I don't care about me. Let me show you what this person ... Let me show you all the results of the people we're serving, what's happening there," which first off, is better marketing and, second off, it's that transition where I was literally like, "Everything I've accomplished is stupid. What they're doing, that's the real ... What we're doing, that's the thing that's amazing." Right? That's the spiritual side of it. That's the thing where it's like, the thing that got you into motion now is doing good in the world. And when you start seeing that, it's like, oh, my gosh. That's so much more fulfilling and so much more exciting. Russell: And people ask me, "The last six years, why'd you keep getting up? Do you need more money?" I'm like, "No, that's not what keeps me up," but I can tell you 100 stories of people who ... literally the ripple effect of how many lives they've changed because I did my thing. Right? We made a documentary of the Two Comma Club and Jamie Cross has this whole part there where she's bawling her eyes out and she said, "Where would my family be if Russell wouldn't have fulfilled his God-given calling?" And every time I see that, I start bawling, myself. That's why, eventually, you start doing it. Right? Josh: But when did that shift happen? Russell: I don't know. It wasn't a day that it happened. The energy of it shifted. Right? I don't know. It gradually kind of happened. Josh: What's that? Dave: Tell them about your dad. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Dave, come on in. Dave's here. Dave, take the mic. Here. Dave: Yeah. No, honestly, I think… this has been one of those things. It's been fun for me to watch Russell from the sidelines here. I think, honestly, it was your dad's 60th birthday. Josh: Which was how long ago? Dave: I don't even know. Russell: Three, four years ago probably. Dave: But it was the reflection on that and it was the difference from having your hand raised versus ... because I remember you… Russell: Yeah, you want me to tell that story? Dave: Russell is a much better storyteller. I'll seed the thought, but I'll let him finish. Russell: All right. Josh: Oh, thank you Dave. Russell: Thank you. Interesting. Josh: Guys, we have a live audience here. Russell: So yeah, my dad turned 60 and we have our little family reunion every year we do. And so it was during his birthday. And I remember my mom gave him $60, six $10 bills. And so she gave them to him one at a time and said, "Okay, the first decade was one to 10. Tell us something you remember about that." He's like, "I don't remember anything back then." The second one, he's like, "10 to 20, that's when I was a wrestler. It was so much fun for me." And then, 20 to 30, he was like, "Okay, that's when I was starting my business, trying to figure things out and trying to get our family stable." 30 to 40, "That's when my kids were wrestling and I was coaching them." And then 50 to 60, he kind of went through everything. Russell: And then, after it was done, I asked him, I said, "Well, Dad, of all the decades, what one was the best for you?" Thinking, in my world, the best was going to be when he was a wrestler because I was like, for me, the greatest part of my life was when I was wrestling. And my dad said, "The greatest decade was when I got to coach you." I forgot that story until Dave said that, but I remember coming back and telling Dave and other people that I always thought the best part was being the all star. For my dad, the best part was coaching other people and seeing their hand raised. Josh: That was a good interjection there, Dave. Huh. Russell: …which was really cool.

All Things Franchising With Lance Graulich Josh: Let's talk about all things franchising. You might have a cool idea, a booming business or want to get into one and I want you all to listen up. We've got Lance Graulich here and he is the expert in franchising around the world, the top 1%. So I'm going to ask you here, Lance, tell me, how do you know if you have an idea that's franchisable? Get more tips about franchising at dorksdelivered.com.au Lance: Well, Josh, first of all, thank you for having me from around the world here in Las Vegas. So look, I always talk to people when it comes to franchising, what is your secret sauce? What do you have? What do you have that other people don't? More importantly, what do your customers tell you that you have? Why are you good? And I always call it the secret sauce. Every business has it. Is it your people? You know, I was in a conversation the other day about Starbucks. Starbucks, the founder and CEO Howard Schultz will certainly tell you, it's not about coffee, it's about people. He'll tell you his culture that he built is the secret sauce to why Starbucks is so successful. So that's the short answer to start off. Josh: Cool. So everyone needs to find their secret sauce, I guess is what it comes down to. And that sounds on paper easy enough. But I understand that like, obviously, you have the likes of McDonald's and these huge franchises. Is McDonald's the biggest franchise at the moment? Lance: Well, McDonald's, Subway, those are two of the top right there in units. I mean, Subway has 15,000 just in the United States alone probably now. Josh: Yeah, Subway recently has had a bit of a an upset with their direction. Is that fair to say? Lance: You hit on something very important, because one of the biggest things that I talked to people about when they are looking into a franchise is you have to really like the leadership of the brand that you're looking to get involved with. Because, you know, this is a long term relationship. A typical franchise agreement is 10 years. And it's like dating, you know, you have that first conversation and you decide, is there going to be a second date? So you talk about Subway. Yeah, there have been hiccups along the way. And that typically stems from leadership. As brands are growing, and in some cases, are not growing, all of a sudden, they have a period of time where they go negative. And, you know, the future is not looking so bright. Well, change of leadership means change of strategy. And the new strategy doesn't necessarily always take off as quickly as everybody hopes. And the franchisees isn’t in some cases, the ones that are high performing and doing very well typically are not going to be affected. It's the franchisees that aren't doing as well that, you know, could have the most to lose, I guess you could say at that point. Josh: That makes sense. I guess it's just for lack of a better term, removing the dead wood or clipping the bush. Lance: Trimming the bush Josh: Trimming the bush, that's right. So finding your secret sauce, like, I would say that I've got a team of unicorns that work for me, they're fantastic, and they are the lifeblood of our company. I can say that when I started the business 13 years ago, and it was all me as a single one-man band in my parent's garage as it would be that expanded out. And one of the things I noticed with expanding my business was, I had a process in the way that I did things. And when I brought staff on, they would have a process and the way that they did things all that would be looking to a process and amid the training and that upscaling was quite a long process to get there. One of the things that I've seen with franchising is documentation is paramount and procedural documentation so that you can stir and repeat and have your empire run by 14-year olds is a big key to success. If you don't have documentation, or if you're running a business that is heavily reliant on the professional services industries, where you need upskilled, university degrees and so forth, is there any reason that that should create more friction or less friction towards setting up and selling a franchise? Lance: You know, since technology has become a thing, I think it was 2000 or so that Google really came out strong, might have been about 20 years or so. But as technology has come about, the franchise world has really gotten even stronger in my opinion. Technology is a major advantage to being part of a franchise organisation. You remember the old Yellow Pages, I mean, in the US? You know, you wanted to if you wanted to find any kind of business, you would either call directory assistance, or you would, you know, open up the Yellow Pages and look for an ad on movers or whatever you're doing, you'd find the Yellow Pages. Well, now everything's on Google. So what do all the big companies do? It's all about SEO, Search Engine Optimisation. And the biggest companies is spending their most money there or so, you know, all the franchise brands will show up in the top 10 searches. If you're a lowly little mom and pop, good luck getting discovered when all the franchise brands are spending the money. So look, I mean, the idea of a franchise is that anybody can jump into a franchise. What brands are typically looking for is they're looking for smart people. They don't care if they have any experience in the industry. Let me give you a story. I got a guy. He has 19 franchise hair salons. He was a banker. He didn't even have a retail establishment. He did nothing about retail and hiring employees at all. He was a banker. Had some money. And he's a good friend of mine now, but I met him after he made this deal with another friend of mine who's a franchise consultant like myself. And what we do as franchise consultants, is we listen to what people want in a brand. They don't necessarily have any emotion attached to what the brand is because they don't know what the brand is, but they know what lifestyle they want to have. Are they going to operate it? Are they going to be a semi absentee owner and hire somebody? Are they looking to have a lifestyle where they don't work nights, they don't work weekends, etc.? What's their investment level going to be? So in this particular example, this gentleman has 19 franchised hair salons and guess what, he has no hair, he’s cutting the hair of a customer. And on top of that he doesn't even know how to cut hair. Nor is it a passion or interest of his. So he followed this particular system, an amazing franchised hair salon brand. He nets, nets a million and a half US dollars a year from his hair salons and probably only works about five, six hours a week. Josh: And he's not spending that money on cutting hair obviously, because he doesn’t have any. Lance: He's saving his money on his haircuts. Absolutely. Josh: That's great. So I guess there's two parts to it. So we got the franchise's for go getter investors really it's not about what the product is. It's about go getter investors and making sensible financial decisions, as opposed to buying a pie shop because you really love pies. Somebody went to McDonald's is looking at the numbers, not looking at how the burgers cooks so to speak. Lance: Yeah, I mean, look, anybody can start their own business, you don't need to be in a franchise model. However, to do every single thing yourself, create a logo and trademark it and figure out what the prototype is. What size is just right for this particular business? Is it home based? You know, how do we do it? How do we get the name out there? How much marketing dollar in marketing dollars do we need to spend to get any traction that gets us any attention. There are a million different pieces. Now besides myself owning quite a few franchises and being very successful. I've created some of my own brands and been very successful and sold several of them. So I am a consummate entrepreneur, but I'm also lucky. I was brought up in a very entrepreneurial type family. My dad realised at a young age, my young age at the time, he said, you know, I'm pretty sure you're unemployable like your grandfather's, you better go figure out how to be an entrepreneur. You know, so you can start your own business. But if you can start with a franchise. You know, what I educate a lot of people on Josh is, you can basically get into a franchise as your first venture. And getting into any good franchise will teach you everything you need to know about business in general. And I see a lot of people do that, do really well. And then start to create their own concepts that they have a burning desire to bring to market. Because look, if you have a burning desire to do something, the first step is to look at all the franchise brands and compare and contrast is there's something out there that’s similar to what I already want to do. Do that competitive analysis. And if there truly is nothing and you still think it's a great idea, then go for it. Josh: There was a company just on comparing and contrasting. There's a company called Pita Pit. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Pita Pit. Lance: Oh absolutely. I know the founder of Pita Pit. Josh: Oh cool. We did a lot of their IT support work throughout southeast Queensland and I had a look at Pita Pit versus Subway in Australia. And I personally liked Pita Pit more than Subway. Fresher ingredients, slightly more exotic ingredients. You had more options with the way it was cooked. It became instead of just a sandwich or a raffle stuffing, an experience. Let's use that term. Lance: More creative. Absolutely. Josh: Absolutely. And then all the Pita Pits locally around here we had like eight and we're down to one now and it's ages away. And I had to look at why is that? Now I don't know if Subways done this everywhere. But Subway now started using similar ingredients, similar reps and they sort of looked at it, okay, this is what our competitors doing, wipe them out. The reason I'm saying that when it comes to franchising, is it good to come through with a slightly different idea. I'm not going to say Burger King and McDonald's are the same company pretty much but they are, aren’t they? They really are. And you know who came first. But Burger King or Hungry Jack's, as it is in Australia is still doing fine. They're still doing very well. Is there any problem being, for lack of a better term again, a copycat type business in a franchise or do you have to completely reinvent the wheel? Or what would you say? Getting back to that secret sauce. What's the secret sauce that the Hungry Jack's or Burger King has that McDonald's doesn't or how do they differentiate from an investor's standpoint? And from the end consumers? Lance: It's certainly a great, great question. You know, there was a book many years ago called Raving Fans. And I still think, you know, when I'm looking at franchise brands, I'm looking for who that customer base is, why our customers, use the example of Hungry Jack's or Burger King, why are some customers coming to Burger King versus McDonald's? Is it the product? Is it the convenience? Some brands are definitively a destination. Starbucks in the early days was absolutely destination, they made a conscious decision that they were now going to be a convenience, and they started putting in Drive Thru’s. So all of those things, you know, part of my expertise in franchising also happens to be the restaurant space. So with this question, I would want more of a point of differentiation. I don't want to be another me too look alike type brand. Now to your story on Pita Pit. I don't know the history in Australia and what might have happened. But sometimes you have operators that maybe don't perform for whatever reason, maybe there was a partnership breakup. And it was easier to not pursue Pita Pit, and there was nobody else interested in the market at the time. I could tell you there's a brand right now a friend of mine owns in the US, where he has quite a few of these restaurants. And he's incredibly successful by all standards with these restaurants that he operates. And I think he has eight right now, makes a lot of money. And he's very happy. He's got a great team. Interestingly, this brand has opened about 150 restaurants successfully, but they've closed 52 at this point. Those aren't exactly good numbers, would you say? I mean, definitely not. Josh: One in three is not ideal, no. Lance: But they're still able to sell franchises at a good pace. You know, the most difficult thing is getting to a new market, and really expanding in a new market and doing it effectively. So your customers can actually hear you through all the noise. And it's what I call competitive noise. You know, Starbucks, when they opened in Las Vegas, where I am, Las Vegas isn't that big of a place, about 2 million people and Starbucks literally open eight locations back to back to back to back in no time. Why? Because they wanted to build brand awareness quickly and get out and you know, have enough advertising dollars to share and spend for the entire market. So there are different strategies. But the bottom line is, for me, it always comes back to you know, does your family like the food, because if you like the food, and you can be a customer, there's a chance that this brand can do really well. If your entire family doesn't like the food and nobody knows is going to be a customer. Probably a brand I'm going to try to stay away from. Fair to say? Josh: Yeah, absolutely. One of the things on liking the foods that I found that just recently so only in the last 15 months or so Hungry Jack's and Burger King, before McDonald's released the Beyond Meat patties, the vegan options that then put them as a differentiator in the marketplace. Now I thought cool, okay. And that sort of made me think why hasn't McDonald's done this? And what is their connection to the meat production industry to have not done this? I thought cool, they've done this and then that instantly made it you if you're ordering Uber Eats or something like that. If you're ordering for a few people and there's a vegetarian or a vegan or something like that instantly, you know exactly the place you're going to be going because they’ve made that differentiator. On that, when it comes down to things like Uber Eats, so I understand there's a lot of different ways that franchises can be modeled now Uber Eats isn't a franchise, but you still have solo operators that are going around getting a slice of the pie so to speak, whether or not an employee they're contracted to a larger business. Would you call Uber Eats and Lyft and Uber a franchise in a sense, or what would you say differentiates their model to a franchise model? Lance: They're not a franchise at all. A franchise system one of the biggest keys so let's talk about its use McDonald's as an example. If you're going to become a McDonald's franchisee, McDonald's corporate, which is the franchizor, ZOR. The ZOR versus the ZEE, the franchizor has to exercise quite a bit of control over their franchisees to have a successful franchise model. And the documents you know, franchising is regulated in the US regulated by the Federal Government, the Federal Trade Commission, and there are specific documents you have to create in order to be a franchise in the US. And for that matter anywhere in the world, there are different laws depending on the country you're in, they might vary. But the bottom line is this, you have to exercise a reasonable amount of control. So if you are a franchisee of McDonald's, you can't decide to purchase things from different vendors. You can't choose to have your employees wearing a different uniform, you certainly can't choose to buy certain, you know, menu boards or lighting or tables and chairs, you have to use only approved vendors. Now, if you can consider franchising the most rigorous control type environment, you know, you have licensing, which can be kind of loosey goosey, where, you know, you can license a certain product or recipe or name, but they can't control whether or not you serve hot dogs, for example, or change the uniforms. And some of the companies you're talking about, you know, Uber Eats or what have you or Uber. I mean, they are major corporations that, you know, choose to run markets in a different fashion than a franchise would entirely. They're not following the same rule book or operations manual necessarily, the control is on a corporate level, but it's completely different from a legal setup. Josh: Okay. If you've got an awesome idea that's scalable, and you're not looking to buy into, obviously a franchise, you're looking to franchise at your business. How do you go about picking your market? So just recently, we've got Taco Bell, and Carl's Jr. to Australia. And people are loving it. And it's going great. If you've got a product, how do you go about picking your market share? Where do you go about finding where you should be running a franchise? Because I'd imagine it's not always going to be best just to run from home base. Lance: No, you know, the first step is always where have you founded the company? All great franchises, at least start a franchise brand, starts with one location. A lot of people have seen the movie The founder with Ray, you know, Ray Kroc, and the story of McDonald's, it's pretty true. As far as I can tell, I've read all the various books on it as well. But it all starts with one location. In their case they started in Southern California. Where did the first franchise take place? Well, Southern California, that's where they were. And they started expanding throughout California. So it's all about proximity and franchising to start, although with technology, you can be worldwide in no time, it purely depends on the brand and how much support is required. So I would say if you have a business in Australia, and as I mentioned in the pre show, you know, I have actually talked to Australian brands quite recently that want to come to the United States. If you have a brand that's already successful, even if it's a single unit, by all means you could be ready to start a franchise. And that starts with a free call with myself to explore those options. We get on a Zoom call like this, and have that conversation. So anybody, it doesn't, you know, some people say, Oh, you need five locations, ten locations. Look, if you have a brand that's successful period, doesn't matter how big you are, let's have a conversation. If you're looking to grow, that's an option, because to grow on your own, the way Uber has chosen to do, they raise money in the public markets, they went public, they raised funds. And it's not a question of better or worse, it's a question of the desire of the owners. I can tell you in the United States, there's a lot to be said about private equity. Private equity is a huge topic. Private Equity groups control the money in the United States these days. And then the private equity groups love to gobble up franchise brands, because they're successful. That's why I do what I do. And by the way, Joshua, keep in mind, there are so many franchises because so many people do think of restaurants as being the preeminent franchises. And while I represent almost 190 restaurant franchises, I represent about 400 non restaurant franchises in every category. Josh: If you are looking to dip your toes into business, as you said, this is an easy entry point jumping into a franchise is you've got a rulebook there, you've got sales guidelines, you've got call to actions ready to go, you've got logos, you've got websites, you've got all this information that I know after being in business for 13 years, takes a long time to get sorted and get set right. If you wanted to dip your toe in and go okay, let's see if buying a franchise is right for me and you're interested in taking a little bit of money out of the mortgage or saving up a bit of coin, what’s the palatable entry price that you could expect to dip your toe in again. Okay, this is for me. Now let's go the full hog and dive right in. Lance: In US dollars, about $150,000 or less. I have quite a few franchises around the 100,000-dollar mark, home based brands that are phenomenal. And in some cases, it might be $100,000. Get a little bit of little office somewhere, a lot of great brands. So that's the answer. $100,00 and $150,000. And I have quite a few brands that are branching out. I mean, look, most US brands go to Canada first and then they look to eventually get to Europe, Asia, and eventually they'll get to Australia of course, like McDonald's for example. Taco Bell, as you mentioned, just got there, because they're pretty much full of the US at this point. Josh: In the land down under it takes us a while to catch up, I think. Lance: Running for the border. Josh: If you're buying into a franchise, let's say buying into a taco bell or a home based business, you say you should have a backing of about 150,000 or be able to gain a position the bank is going to give you that that kind of money. Is that fair? Lance: Yeah. I mean, look, there are opportunities throughout the United States, the Small Business Administration, which is of course, backed by the government, it's essentially a government backed loan will lend to everybody on franchises. I mean, if they're a good franchise, they'll lend typically 75%, 80% of the money that you need with a minimal credit score, it's not even a fantastic credit score. It's in the US, it's just a 680 credit score. So Australia is going to have similar programs to simulate business and the Australian economy. You know, the challenge just becomes, you know, what are those brands that if somebody wanted to bring it to Australia, what are they? Because Taco Bell is not an inexpensive franchise, Taco Bell is not sizable investment, so is Carl's Jr, as you mentioned. Again, as I mentioned earlier, because of technology today, it's quite a few, very inexpensive high performing franchise brands that are easily duplicatable or replicable in Australia. And those brands, if they're not in Australia, now they're coming. Josh: That's a pretty easy entry point really. Like if you had to look at the return on investment of buying a house with a 20% loan or 80% Elvia, and then you had to look at buying a franchise where you're getting the same amount of money sort of borrowed from the bank or whatnot. And it's sitting at 30 grand or something like that US obviously, as we're saying, but 30 grand, what would you say you see, and obviously, this is such a difficult question to ask, but what are the returns? So a house, you might get 5%, 7% every year if you’re doing well, 2% in worst areas, 0.5 in the middle of the cities. Lance: This is one of my favorite questions, because I've actually gotten in arguments with accountants and attorneys over this, because sometimes they miss this. When you buy a franchise, you know, just like you're describing a house. So you make a big investment like a house. Obviously in the US, you certainly have write offs, mortgage interest, you get to deduct, there are various things that advantages to owning a house in the first place. And then you also have the equity that you build over time in owning a house. Well, a business is no different. First of all, you have a tremendous amount of write offs when you own a business, and a lot of people forget that. Secondly, you do have the obvious equity that you have, when you own a business. When you sell a business in the US, especially a franchise, there's a secondary market for franchises, there are brokers set up all throughout the US, if franchisees want to sell, you know, you could sell for four times your cash flow. This is substantial upside. So if you got into a franchise that only cost you $100,000, and you create a substantial cash flow, which you can, I'll give you a perfect example, I have a franchise that cost $62,000 US home based. There's a gentleman that just sold his franchise that he purchased it for $62,000, seven and a half years later, he just sold it for $1.7 million US, he also made a nice income, about $500,000 to $800,000 a year while he operated. Josh: So that's a perfect segue into what I was just about to ask. How do you make sure or how do you make sure you're buying a job or some franchise, you're buying a job, some of you buying an investment, some of you buying a spot to work with a known brand where you're doing something you love, so you might be a plumber, and you go, I'm going to operate underneath this brand, because I know that this is a going to bring leads to the door, I'm not going to have to do any of the other business stuffing around or the footer, I'm just going to be able to do the voodoo that I do. In the franchise world, is there an easy way to differentiate between buying that investment, which is probably going to have a lower return, but you're forking out the money but you're doing nothing. You’re just sitting there set and forget the like, like stocks and shares or something like that. Versus buying a job, which is still a fine enough thing to do, because you're buying that brand recognition, you're getting your foot in the door very easily to get to do exactly what you want to do with a known brand with leads coming through. Is there a way to differentiate between those if you're going through some franchise broker or someone was to contact you? And I said, Look, I want to buy an investment. I don't want to buy a job. How do I work that up. Lance: That's why people use me, I'm free. My advice is free. I get paid by the brands. So there's a lot to unpack in what you said. So let's take it in two parts. There's a validation stage. So once I introduce you to various brands, and Joshua says, Lance, I'm interested in this brand and this brand, set me up with a phone call. I introduce you, you have your first call, your second call and you go to especially these days, it might be a virtual type discovery day where you meet the team, tour their corporate office, even virtually if that’s the case usually has been done face to face, they've changed things up a little bit these days for expediency. But there's a validation process, as you get to the end. Where if they really love you, and you love them and you want to do a deal, they say, well wait a second, Joshua, we would like you, here's a list of all of our franchisees, I would like you to call at least five of them at random, whoever you want to call. And I want you to ask him any question you want to ask him. Things like, you know, would you do it again? Are you happy? Do you make money? Do you have the appropriate support, marketing, etc., etc. And you could either see yourself in those people or you don't, and decide to move forward. So in the due diligence process, I asked you or my candidates questions like, again, what kind of lifestyle are you interested in having? Are you going to be the owner operator? Because let me tell you, if you want to be a semi absentee owner, and absentee owner, I have brands like that. I have brands where you can be a complete absentee owner, and not do anything, it's a strategic move by the franchizor. They have technology and systems in place where you can do that successfully. Now, there are quite a few of prospective franchisees in the US as an expression called the pipe dream that doesn't necessarily exist. And they think they're going to get wealthy from owning one little restaurant. That's not how it goes. Sometimes you have the individual franchisees that jump into one restaurant, and they might be successful, but it's a grind, and it's a JOB. It's not the dream that they wanted. So what I tell people is, if you only have money to get into one restaurant, you really want to do the restaurant business, go right ahead. But keep in mind, you got to get ready to get a second one, and a third one. Wealth is easily built in the restaurant business when you have multiples. You start to get five restaurants, you can net $80,000 a location, $400,000 US from five restaurants, that's substantial income. I's hard to do that when you're working for someone else. And now you get to write your own schedule. In my case, I work seven days a week in my restaurants, because it was working for myself. You know, what’s the old expression, you rather work 80 hours a week for yourself than 40 hours a week for someone else. Josh: Yep, it becomes something you're interested in doing, especially if you're buying into something that you believe in and you're passionate about. So I understand you've got an assessment tool at ionfranchising.com that people can jump on to. Tell us a bit more about that tool. Lance: Yeah. So, at my website, ionfranchising.com, there is a free assessment. If you scroll down a little bit, and it's quite scientific, it'll take you 10, 15 minutes to do. And it'll determine not only your current mindset based on your past skills, and your risk tolerance, comfort zone, and it kind of whips it all together and determines compatibility with what brands you're most compatible with is the best way to say it. Then it'll give you a detailed report. It'll give me a detailed report, and I'll be able to guide you better. I'm still going to ask about 30, 40 other questions to roll it all together, because that's the way I'm going to help you best. So it's a great tool. It's free. It's right on my website. Now one of the big pieces I tell people a lot, Joshua, is my goal is to get people really clear, to give them the clarity to understand what their goals are. As much as I'm a franchise consultant, I'm really a franchise strategist. I help people develop their life plan and how they can most effectively be an entrepreneur. And my favorite expression as a result of that is clarity is currency. So clarity is currency is my general theme. Getting people clear so I can get to you know finding them brand that is absolutely perfect for them. Josh: It sounds like there's nothing to lose only things to gain. More clarity for them, more clarity for everyone and definitely give me more clarity on how franchises work and the direction that things can go. And if anyone out there is keen we're going to be jumping in and organising to have another podcast on how to set yourself up and price your first franchise. Otherwise, did you have any other questions, Lance, or things that you'd like to go through before we head off? Lance: No, Tony Robbins once said model success and that is what franchising is. So that's my final word of the day and you have been amazing and I look forward to round two. Josh: I've loved doing it Lance. And if anyone out there has any feedback and comments, jump across the iTunes, give us some love. Leave us some feedback and stay good.

Making a Foundation for Growth with Jeff Chastain Josh: G’day everyone out there in podcast land. I've got Jeff Chastain here from Admentus. And he's going to be talking to us about a few different ways that you can make a foundation for growth with something called EOS. So tell me a bit more about the process and what EOS is for anyone out there that's listening. Jeff: Sure. Well, thanks for having me. EOS is really just a, it's honestly just a simple set of business practices, business processes that work for entrepreneurial-led organisations to kind of instill that foundation, what you're talking about, it's still kind of that basic process in place, because honestly, most entrepreneurs that come into business, they've got a great idea, they've got an idea for a solution, a product, something like that, they take it to market, but what they don't necessarily have is an MBA and know exactly how to go structure and build a business. They go out to market, they hopefully have something that's viable, that a customer wants to go by, they've got it sold. And then we're kind of at the stage of, okay, now, what do we do are we actually going to grow up and treat this like a real business and scale out people, scale out systems, things like that, so we can move forward. If you look at all the business statistics and stuff like that three to four year mark, when a lot of small businesses failed, it's really that stage where the entrepreneur, their core team has basically kind of hit their limit of they're trying to do everything themselves and getting frustrated that okay, things just aren't working quite as well. And they lose traction, the business saying, okay, when we first started, it was really easy change really easy to adapt. Now we're here and it just feels like the business is stuck in the mud, we've kind of lost all sense of fun of direction here. And that point, they just say, hey, we're bailing out and starting over. Whereas an operating system like EOS really comes back in underneath their successful business really that they built to that point and says, okay, now let's solidify the foundation underneath it. Let's actually get everybody working together with the same vision, get everybody performing the same way. And just really kind of reinvigorate that business going forward. Josh: Okay, so what you said there pretty much you need to create structure within the business to allow for growth and to allow for everyone to pull the ship in the same direction. Because if everyone's blowing wind in the sails in the same direction, the ship will move forward, as opposed to creating turbulence. So how would you go about moving to a structure where you have the systems in place when most people are going off their feet their busy as. Everyone's complaining, they have no time. So how do you go about introducing something that takes up time, that will save you time, if you need to get over that hump to be able to get there, what's the process? Jeff: It's a longer journey process is the way we look at it. With a lot of things you'll go out and visionaries especially go to a weekend conference, or read a book and come back into the office Monday. And here's all the new ideas we're going to go implement. That kind of stuff honestly never works, it never gets the traction. Whereas EOS is really implemented as a very phased process where it will actually start working right off the bat with individual tools to say, okay, go back in tomorrow and into your business, let's start on just this one tool, just these two tools, and start kind of building that piece by piece into your daily journey, your daily practice your daily work right there, and really build it in over time. It's a longer implementation process. But it helps take, okay, everything that you're doing today, all your ideas you're doing today, now, let's map in a little bit of structure. Let's map in some new processes. Let's figure out okay, what are you doing today in your sales process, for example. And let's go take and document that at an 80/20 kind approach from an entrepreneurial standpoint, and really get just that little bit in place to where now everybody on your sales team is using the same process kind of a thing. So it's little pieces that you can build into time, and it's not a complete turn right right now with the entire company and expect everybody to stay on the track. Josh: Getting back to my ship analogy, you can’t turn a ship on a dime, can you? Or a five-cent piece if you're listening in Australia. So what kind of tools would you say you're looking to implement or would be something that you that you go into and you get, okay, 80% of the people are having this same problem because they haven't implemented X, Y, Z or haven't reviewed this stack? Jeff: Oh, one of the keys that we really look at first and you kind of already touched on it is simply just looking at the company vision to say, okay, this entrepreneur, this leader has his idea of, okay, where are we trying to get to as a company, but I forget where it was, was a Forbes study or something not too long ago that went in and did basically a study on all those thousand something different employees of a company, and they said basically one in four had some idea of what was going on in the company, that they understood the direction of the company, they understood where they fit, etc. And if you look at it and say, okay, if you've got Sally sitting here working in your operations department, and she's just there to go in and punch a clock, nine to five, in and out kind of a thing, versus you've got somebody over here on the other side that is in tune with the company vision, they're excited about, hey, this is what my job is. This is how it contributes to the company. This is how where we're going as a company, and this is how I'm helping to facilitate that. That type of employee is going to be a lot more productive for you. And obviously, if you can get everybody in the company with that mental attitude, then to your earlier point about blowing the sales, okay, yeah, now we've got everybody on the same page, because that's really the key is to say, okay when most people look at vision they're looking at, okay, here's our core values, our core focus of being honest, integrity, all the kind of buzzwords that they go stick on the website. And honestly, forget about at that point, it goes and collects dust out there on the About Us page, and really what vision should be, it starts with that but it goes a lot deeper to say, okay, our vision X, Y, Z IT company here, who are we trying to serve? Are we trying to serve a different certain market? And why are we trying to reach out to them? What makes us special to go reach out to that market? What are our key differentiators for reaching that market? So that way, it's defined at a company level. And so when marketing is putting together their pitch, sales knows what marketing is doing. Sales can go out and use those same three key differentiators right there and their sales pitch. And that way, the support team, the IT team, the operations team, whatever this delivering the service knows exactly what they're supposed to deliver. Because if marketing goes off and sells one thing, sales, goes off the rails and sells something else, operations just kind of sitting there left saying how in the heck are we going to deliver this? And everything's a mess at that point. Josh: Yeah, and unsatisfied customers are never a good thing to have. And that then makes the whole system crumble down. Like I know, for us, when we first started out 13 years ago, the direction that we went was like a lot of people that haven't read enough personal development books and decided to jump out there with a gung ho awesome attitude, knowing that you can do better than some of the other people out there decide to get the clients charge a lower price. Wrong move, Josh. What are you doing? Jeff: That works for a little while. Josh: That's right. I'm gonna go back and select teenage Josh, what's he doing? Idiot, read a book. Jeff: Yeah, you had to start somewhere. Josh: That's right. So when we did that, we had incredible growth, and we bought someone else on and we're both sitting on 150,000 a year. So we're both pretty happy before turned 21. So we're both pretty pumped, if I call myself Batman, and he's Robin. When Robin had a stroke, and Batman had to pick up the slack. Batman didn't have enough time. And he say to do that he was too busy saving lives. So that was nearly the collapse of our company. And that came down to all processes at that stage and growing on a price. And when we decided to change that around, exactly like you're saying, create that differentiator. So now the businesses that we work with, we guarantee that they will have the uptime that we've agreed upon. So depending on the business, that could be businesses not down for more than 30 minutes, or for an IT problem not down for four hours, if it's a smaller business or something like that. And if they go down that guarantee means we pay them per hour at the agreed rate while their business is down. So we want them to be up and running as quickly as possible, because there's no money in us paying them while we're fixing the problem. Jeff: Sure, sure. Yep. Josh: It just realigns the way and make sure that our offerings and what you're saying there perfectly with the team. You want to make sure your team's pulling in the same direction. We figured as an IT provider and solutions provider to make sure that we are pulling in the same direction as them. And if we're charging people per hour, when something goes down, they're already upset with us, and then we're whacking them with a big invoice. So they just get more upset with us. And we found that the less skilled, less experienced IT companies would take longer to fix the problems therefore earn more money. And we went this doesn't make any sense. What is going on with this world? Why are we doing this? This doesn't make any sense at all. So we changed the model and then let's flip it on its head, let's have them be paid when things go down. That's one of our differentiators that we try to push through in our marketing as well as through our sales. But you're exactly right. You need to have that thing that we differentiate it isn't price because it's very easy to see the differences between that and that doesn't help businesses out. Getting back to what you said you said is Sally's in the business that may just want to do nothing but clock in. And it did sound like you want to create a latest mentality throughout the whole company. We have ever been looking at a problem, finding a solution and bringing that to the table for everyone to review and look at as opposed to just being a meat in a seat, so to speak. Jeff: Definitely you want to you want to empower your team basically give them give them a reason to come reason that they want to be there a reason that they feel like they're contributing, and also basically have that almost honesty, integrity, kind of openness in the company such that regardless of what level of the company Sally's at, if she sees an issue, or has a problem, or whatever, she feels comfortable raising that and everybody's going to take it seriously kind of a thing. While, you've got to have the structure in the company, and obviously reporting structure hierarchy, stuff like that. You've got to be real careful not to make that too rigid, especially in a small company that say, okay, well, you're at the bottom level, you can't do anything, just go do your job kind of a thing. You want to encourage that growth, that leadership model there to say, hey, no matter what your role is you're contributing this is how you fit into our long-term strategy, our long-term vision, this is where you are. And really, I said, empower them, make them feel like they're part of that so that they can contribute, they feel like they've got a worth and value in that company. Josh: I know, Dad has always said, if you can think of a way a problem can be solved. It's better to have that solution be found by a staff member. And they will then take ownership over that, and they'll cradle that and that'll become their baby, as opposed to even if you know what the solution can be just jamming that down someone's throat doesn't necessarily have people care for your solution. But if someone finds that, and then they take that ownership, and they take that pride in what they have found, that they brought to the table, and everyone wins. It's kind of like inception, you need to try and put that idea into their head, if you've got the idea, or work together and have people just started to spring up ideas and have moments. So we do a half Friday. And normally at the moment, I'm not drinking any beer for six weeks, but we only have a few beers and have a beer meeting, and go through how can we have done this week better? What was your favorite part? What was your least favorite part? And is there any new tools that you've seen out there that could help? Was there any special compliments that you had from clients? Was there any particularly difficult clients? And then we go through and work out how we can phase that. And then we do a difficult question section, which is where we reflect on each other? And we say, oh, look, I didn't quite like the way that you said X, Y, Z. Or you could have approached that question that you asked me in a less hasty way, or whatever the case is, just to make sure that you do have a better team, a better family that you're working with. When you go into businesses, what are the families like? How is the structure that disparity? Is it sometimes like, is there more strength in one arm than there is another say, for instance, they've got a fantastic team, but not a very well defined vision? Or is it all over the place? Jeff: Honestly, I'd say family is the right term to describe it with, because you can obviously have some families that are really tight, well knit together and enjoy being together, working together. And you've got other families that you better not put them all at the dinner table because they're going to be yelling and screaming at each other. Yeah, picking whatever, whatever the discussion is politics or religion, or whatever, they want to go at each other about kind of a thing there. You see it all in both kind of thing. And a lot of times, that's really, it's a culture really, from the top of the business. I see most of the time, that okay, are you going to have that entrepreneurial leader, because if you look at entrepreneurs, the journey, most of the time you've been talking about, okay, you and your partner starting off that business, at that point, you start growing out, start growing out. And the question is, are you going to be able to hand off one of those hats that you're wearing to your new teammates that you brought on? Or are you going to kind of pull and tug on the hat at the same time, they're trying to take it sit in their back pocket and say, make sure you're doing this this way, make sure you're following these steps kind of thing, writing over them. At that point, you're not instilling any kind of trust or any kind of confidence in your team. They're sitting there looking over their shoulder all the time, saying, okay, am I about to get beaten over this kind of a thing? Am I about to get called out in front of everybody, because this didn't go exactly the way the owner would have done it kind of a thing? And when you've got that kind of mentality with that owner, not being able to delegate, not being able to hand things off, and it just cripples the entire staff right there from an attitude perspective, because honestly, everybody's sitting there saying, okay, I'm basically ducking the entire time saying, okay, who's going to be the next one to get on his radar? And being glad that okay, sorry, it's your turn here to go be in the spotlight, not mine kind of a thing. And it's like bad attitude. I've seen that in too many companies where the owner is all frustrated himself or herself saying, okay, why is the company not working? I'm having to get down to here in the weeds and do all this stuff. It's like, you got to realise that okay, delegation is one of the key points of being a successful leader. And then really, where really the EOS comes in is, okay, yes, is delegation, but you've got to have the processes in place. You've got to have the numbers, the metric stuff in place where if I've got a documented process for how we're going to handle a trouble ticket in an IT business, I can hand that off to my IT support team over here. And as long as my numbers, my dashboard are correct here to say, okay, all tickets are getting handled in less than 30 minutes or whatever our metrics are for our business. Then as a leader, as the CEO, I can step back and actually relax. I don't have to go stand over that IT tech and sit here and watch the stopwatch. Okay, are you getting done here, you got five minutes left kind of thing. Because I can see the metrics. I know everybody's following the process. And I don't have to worry about that anymore. And that's really the key with these businesses as you've got to be able to systematise the business, you got to go put those processes in place. It's almost kind of counterintuitive to say, we've got to put more structure in the business, we've got to put more framework more processes in place, so that you can relax and have more fun. But most people would look at that and say, wait a minute, more structure means rigidity. I take the creativity out of my business, I take the fun out of my business. And it's actually just the opposite. Josh: We call it elastic documentation. And in where I'll be the first to say I'll create our documentation internally, and I think you have owned that hat so to speak, it's only fair that you write down how you've managed that hat and how that has worked. But once that's being created, it's then up to the person or team that has received that hat to then modify it and change it and tweak it as time goes on. And as processes change, as you might find a better way. Because ultimately, I'm just one person that's walked one direction, but the path you've walked in your life, Jeff, is different to my path. And that's means that the input that you would have would be different. So we make sure that everyone knows that this is the documentation and how it can work, not how it should work. And make sure to have elastic documentation. And as you're saying, delegation is key. Absolutely. You need to be able to let go and let that bird fly than hold its wings and hold it back. Because if you’ll just tire it out. Jeff: And really the key with especially when you're talking about documentation, because too many times I'll see a company say okay, we don't have enough capacity, we need more resources. So they'll go hire somebody in. And it's like, well, jump in, go, Good luck, go figure out your own job, almost kind of a thing. So when you've got these processes and stuff, like you're talking figured out, you can go scale out your helpdesk support team, because you've got documented processes where somebody's gonna step into that role, know exactly what they're supposed to do on day one, it can be productive there rather than spend the next three, four months trying to figure out what their job is or reinvent processes, reinvent things figure out, okay, previous guy walked out the door and basically took all the knowledge in his head with him. And now what am I supposed to do in my new job? And we're sitting there as owners paying them to flounder basically, having that kind of system. Again, that kind of structure in place for those people just facilitates that scale and just again, adds economies of scale, right there. Josh: Coming back to that first employee, I was talking about, we both just worked together enough to learn how to do it. The second employee after David was Alex, and it took seven months before he became profitable. And I went this is terrible, especially like I had read the E-myth by Michael Gerber. And I thought, okay, I should know to do this, but I got caught in that. Don't have time to do it. So I haven't done it. And so I'll just keep doing what I'm doing until that's done. And then I'll never have time to have any fun, which sucks. Yeah, but the moment you have these processes in place, like the E myth, sort of discusses, McDonald's is run by 14-year olds. It's a multi billion dollar business, it's ran by teenagers, really old enough to know how to read the documents that you've got in front of them. And it means that you've got something to lean back on for KPIs, for everything. Every business should have their processes documented. And sometimes it's a lot easier to say than it is to do. Jeff: Definitely is. And one key point about McDonald's or any kind of place like that, if you go in there as your 14-year-old and say, okay, you're going to be a new line cook. They don't hand them a six-inch-thick SAP manual that says, Okay, here's every single little detail about every single little thing you need to know. They've got a laminated sheet there that says step one, step two through step six, this is what you need to follow right here. So to me, that's where a lot of people get stuck when we talk about processes. It is like, okay, where do I even start, and I'm going to end up working for months building out this huge thing. And then nobody looks at it kind of kind of a system, whereas EOS really pushes the 80/20 approach to say, okay, we're going to document the top 20% of exactly what you need to know from a high level to go figure this out, rather than dive down and build that entire SOP manual kind of a thing there that nobody does. It doesn't matter that it's 100% perfect right up front. Take a quick pass to say okay, this is what we do every time. This is the high-level points, and we can always go back and refine it agile kind of process but still just make a quick pass at it and get started, rather than sit there and say, hey, there's no way we can spend months trying to figure all this out, you don't need much, you just need something quick to get started. And honestly at that point, let the people doing the job right now fill in the details as needed. But even still, I would say, don't even, it's not worth their time your investment to go build that huge manual, you don't need all those little details. Just make sure you've got the flow to where somebody can sit down and figure out okay, I can take these six steps and go cook the hamburger, I can do whatever I need to at a high level right there. Josh: Keep it simple, stupid, I think is the case sort of mentality. And keeping it simple. I know if you bought up earlier going to different day seminars and things like that, that they tell you, this is how you change the world with your business just implement this one little thing. And one of them said, I document everything, everything has to be documented. I document where the coffee filters have to be purchased from. What seat I want in an aeroplane. And I've got 120, whatever it was, a lot of procedures just around the way that I travel. And I thought, holy shit. I left going, why oh my goodness. Jeff: At that point, you hire the person on and is still take some six months just to go read all that. Yeah, it’s still why? Josh: It's just too much I went My goodness. And I thought he must have a huge churn rate in his business. Because if you've got a VA, and they're used to booking tickets for you, and they're doing what they're meant to be doing, they already know your preferences. You've told them once, they know. If there is, sound like getting away from the documentation thing, but it gets to a level where it's you don't need to know that on the plane, you're going to be ordering this drink first, followed by this many drinks if it's this many hours long flight, it just becomes too much. Jeff: It's definitely too much. But at the same time, there's a balance between it because for whatever reason, even if you want to scale out, it's not that you lost your VA, you just need to add a second VA. She doesn't necessarily or he doesn't necessarily know all that and having the quick high-level points to say, okay, we prefer this airline, or we prefer middle level seats, mid seats instead of aisle seats or whatever. It's just a couple quick bullet points there to say, Okay, this is what our list of preferences are, it doesn't have to go down to the point of okay, we want a third aisle or third row only, not fourth row kind of a thing and all that kind of mess. It's just okay, here's the couple quick points that we just know, anytime we go book travel, here's the quick set of preferences that we need to follow. And that just makes that new VA that comes on board, their job, they’re onboarding is so much easier, because they can just say, oh, we need to book travel. Here's the five or so pieces of data that I need to know when I go book travel. Josh: I agree completely. The way that I kind of worked at any process that we do in business, whether it be making documentation, or creating systems comes back to something that my brother told me many years ago. I was in my bedroom as a young teenager building electronic projects. And I said to my brothers and oh look up the one remote control turns the lights on, turns the fan on, turns the TV on, turns DVD player on, turns the computer on, does everything with the one can control. Anyway, so I said I'm going to make it to this remote control can also unlock the door and then with an actuator open up the door and then close the door as well. So that sounds pretty cool. And he's an engineer 14 years my senior. Yes, that sounds pretty cool. So he said, how long that's gonna take you to make? Oh, well with these parts, I have to make the PCBs and everything I said it's probably gonna take me 100 hours 100, 120 hours programming everything else. Okay, cool. Cool. How many times could you have open and close the door in 120 hours? Yep. Okay, I get it. Yep. So the door was never automated. But the lesson learned there was if you're going to be telling someone something more than once then document it. If you're going to be telling someone, something many times 100% documented. But if it's something that's just very quick, and you're not going to need to do that process, the same in business, we went automate something unless we know that it's going to benefit the masses of people. And that's what it comes down to being sensible, and maybe just writing a list of what would you suggest that maybe a list of 10 or 20 things of processes? Get five things that they do on a daily basis and try to write those down. What would you say is the magic number? Jeff: I don't know there's necessarily a magic number, but it's definitely just even hitting a one or two kind of a thing to say, okay, let's just look at this at a high level. But what I would take from what you were just saying, supposed the door was already automated or whatever, you wouldn't want to write the process that explains exactly how the motor turns and that electrical current comes on to this motor, and then it swings 35 degrees and it pushes here. It's like no, the process says press the button. That's all the process needs to say kind of a thing there. So you got to be careful with that's really what I'm trying to get at is how deep you go. All they need know is press the button right there if you need to go in or out kind of a thing. You don't need to know how it works. You don't have to no all that kind of detail at that level. Yeah, to your point, it's, it's really just a matter of, obviously one keeping it simple like we talked about, but really just getting started is the biggest thing. With the EOS implementation, it's actually typically almost a two-year journey that we look at from initial start to really calling mastery at that point of all the tools and the processes. And it's just literally, it starts out actually month to month, but then goes to more of a quarterly basis. But the idea is just to start doing something, getting one or two of those tools and start getting some muscle memory basically built with that. And that's really where you got to start with any of this stuff, it is just okay. Again, keeping it simple, but just get started with something. Pick up a piece and move forward with it. That's really the whole premise behind the system, it’s just simplicity. Because even going all the way back the first we were talking vision, at one point, I was working with a branding coach on one company I was working with, and I got this huge document on all the different logos, the color styles, the fonts, everything was all laid out, it was just this big old thing here. It's like, okay, this is just the brand that doesn't even talk about anything else. And when we talked to a company about establishing your vision, it's not again, some master plan that you got to bring in all these consultants on it’s literally two pages. It's eight questions that we go through, it's two pages. It's entrepreneurial, keep it simple, keep it basic, because again, same as the process is if you get in too deep, you start getting too big. Everybody freezes up and nothing gets done, or else it gets over-done and it’s never used kind of a thing. Josh: Well, I think there's going tp be a lot of listeners out there that have heard a lot of what we've been talking about, and probably looking at ways to get this implemented. And at least some consulting. I understand you’ve got admentus.com/resources, there is some bits and pieces such as a quick 20 question checkup? Jeff: Yeah, there's actually three different things on that page. The EOS system itself is built around six different key areas that we say, okay, if you strengthen those six key areas, basically all your issues fall into those buckets. So that's where that checkup comes in is, like I said, a 20 question checkup, they're just kind of measures how strong you are. And those those six key areas. And we'll actually utilise that through the implementation journey to say, okay, here's where we started, here's where we are now kind of a thing to other resources on that page are actually. Two of the EOS books, there's a whole, honestly, a whole library pretty much about EOS, but the traction book, literally lays out the entire system. You've got all the tools in that one book right there. So if you want to just pick up the book, read it yourself, go through it yourself, more power to you kind of a thing. The difference really is that I build myself or it was more of a coach and facilitator, I'm not a consultant, I'm not going to come in and do EOS for you. My role is to come in here and be that third-party working with you on that book. So we're still working from that book from those materials. So you can very easily if you're just curious right now the first chapter’s free up there on that website slash resources, grab the traction or the Get a Grip book, either one right there. And then other resources, simply just if you're curious, or you got questions about any of that, just send me an email at admentus.com/ask. And I'm always open for questions always opened up to help anywhere I can there. Josh: Cool. Well, we'll make sure to check this in the description there for the podcast over on the blog for us. And so everyone can definitely jump in there. I'm actually looking at jumping into doing the organisational checkup. Why not? Why not? It's only 20 questions. What's the harm? Jeff: We're going to get another set of data point for you. Josh: Exactly. Well, I've only got one other question for you. And that is, you've probably already answered the question, to be completely honest. But if there was to be one book that you think that anyone should be reading to be doing better in their business, what would that be? I think I already know the answer. Jeff: You're looking at two of them right there. It really is. It was because honestly, I've been doing I've done a number of businesses myself, I've been doing this kind of stuff for 15 plus years, too many I wouldn't want to count at that point. But it's it really was almost just a complete lightbulb moment when I first saw Traction, because I've been through so many businesses, getting frustrated with clients just you've got to get the foundation the business together. Because we were talking earlier about technology and stuff like that. It's like it doesn't matter how good the technology is, if you don't have the foundation there, and it just really hit me when I was first introduced to Traction. I'm not trying to sell I really do and it's not even my book, it's somebody else. Gino Whitman's the one that wrote it kind of thing. I don't get any credit on it. But it's still it's just that from an entrepreneurial standpoint is just one of those books that just really the lightbulb kinds of content comes on. And the other book is called Get a Grip and it's right there in parallel. But basically what that book is a fictional in quotes, narrative about actually implementing EOS into a technology company, or all type of companies. But still, it's one of those that Yeah, we didn't write this with any one particular person in mind. But sure, yeah. But yeah, if you prefer more of the fictional side, then the technical implement the tools side, but they complement each other really well right there. I've read them both multiple times, and like I said first chapter on both. I was free right there on the website. But honestly, those are the two books that from a business perspective I'd be diving into pretty quick right there. Josh: Sweet. Well, is there any other questions that you had for me? Jeff: I don't think so at this point. Like I said, technology's always kind of my thing I just I know exactly where you're coming from there all the all the terminology and everything. But it's a fun world. But I just try to emphasise especially now being on this side of it, there's like, okay, it's a great tool to help improve productivity, help make things better if you got the foundation laid right, and getting that foundation is really key, because I've seen too many times trying to implement technology to fix underlying problems. And it just can't do that really. Josh: We definitely find you have technology problems, then you have people problems, and you shouldn't be trying to fix people problems with technology. It's been fantastic having on the show there, Jeff. And if anyone has any questions, you can definitely jump across to a admentus.com or ask at admentus.com. Is that correct? Jeff: That's correct. Yep. Or you can email me anytime. Josh: Awesome. Sweet. So definitely jump across there. If you have liked this episode, head over to iTunes and leave us some love. Give us some feedback. And everyone stay healthy out there in podcast land.

How to Work Out If You Are a Leader With Tim Spiker Josh: G’day everyone out there in podcast land. Are you a leader, a lagger or a micro manager? I've got someone here to talk to you all about the best ways to work out what it is the voodoo that you do in your business. With Tim Spiker here from The Aperio, and he's going to go through what it is and how to work that out. So Tim, tell me, how do you work out if you're a leader, lagger or micromanager? How do you make sure you're doing the right things? And you're not being under spoken, over spoken, I think or any of the other ways that you could be? Learn more about leadership with Tim Spiker at dorksdelivered.com.au Tim: I want to share a little research to start this off. But I know when you start to talk about numbers and research for some people, you know, their eyes glaze over and they say, just get me to the punch line. But for other people, it provides some background so that we know that I didn't show up on the podcast today and made up some ideas that I thought were true, it's going to be ground. So if you don't like numbers, hang in here for about, you know, 90 seconds and we'll get to the punch line. So here's the story about how that research happened. I was working for a small boutique consulting firm, and we had people for a week at a time on the west side of Pikes Peak in Colorado in the US to do leadership development with them out of doors. And we gave them a number of assessments. And we had enough assessments and our clients were asking the question, is there any connection between personality style, natural abilities and leadership performance? And because we had all that data, we could run the numbers and look for those statistical connections. And so we did, and I was excited to get the answer. And my colleague, Vanessa Kiley, she crunched all the numbers and I went into her office one night, what did we find? And she said nothing. She found no correlations between personality style, natural ability and leadership effectiveness. But I turn to go out of her office that night, I remember it vividly. And she said, but we did find something. This is a great part of statistical software, it will look where you're not looking. So we weren't looking for what we found, but it's going to look for any correlation it can. And what it found is within our leadership assessment, we had eight different areas that were being measured. And what she found is that just two of those eight areas were driving almost 70% of the variability, and two out of eight, if everything is equal, that should be 25%, and it was almost 70%. And then years later, we had 10 times the data points with 20,000 data points at that point. She ran the data, and that number went up to 77%. So the issue was, is that there were just two areas that were driving over three quarters of a leader’s effectiveness. And many years after I left the firm. I was looking at those two areas, and I said what is unique about those two, and this is the punch line. So if you don't like numbers come on back with this now, here we go. Here's the punchline. Is that those two areas were about who the leader was as a human being, who they were as a person. The other six that we were measuring were about what a leader does. And that's when it clicked with me, that three quarters, or 77%, if you want to be really technical, but three quarters of our effectiveness as leaders comes from who we are, not what we do. So, if we want to be the very best leaders that we are capable of being, doesn't matter what you're talking about a leader at work or at home or in the community, we have to work on becoming well developed human beings. And we could talk about those two categories that were the big ones, but that's the main punch line. Three quarters of your effectiveness as a leader comes from who you are, not what you do. So we have to work on who we are. Josh: Okay. So what does it mean to then be that leader? How do you find the who? Tim: So I'll give you some really specific examples here. So we can make this actionable for everybody. But the two big buckets that were the drivers were a category that we want to call inwardly sound. And another category that we want to call others focused. So if you think about, I'll just ask you, you know, Josh, if you think about a boat, if I were to say, hey, we've got a really sound vessel here, what are the things that come to mind for you, when you think about a boat, that's really sound? What kind of characteristics does it have? Josh: Sound vessel means that it's has a high level of integrity. Tim: Yeah, keep going. Yeah, keep going. Let's brainstorm a few of these. So that's a great high level of integrity in the vessel. What else? Josh: Yep. So high level of integrity. A sound vessel, if you're talking and that that is already has the prefix that we know we're talking about a boat, is that right? Tim: That's right. Yeah. Go with the boat. Josh: So if you know it’s a boat and you've got a sound vessel, I always say that it's a high level of integrity. Yeah, that's probably the most of it. Like, besides thinking about them, you know that it's going to be able to achieve the objectives that you put forward through. So if you own a boat that was not a sound vessel, it might be leaking, it could be having issues across water or whatnot. You're smiling at me like I've given you the answer you want. What’s going on? Tim: Yes, you may have given me the answer I wanted, but in fact, and gave the answer that everybody gives, which is, I can trust this thing. Like this thing is sound, it's going to get hit by waves, it's going to get hit by surf, who knows it might even get hit by a fish. But ultimately, this is a well constructed vessel that can take a beating, and still be stable. And this is what when we talk about being inwardly sound, it's exactly that. I was doing an interview a few weeks back. And we were talking about this concept of being inwardly sound. And the person who was interviewing me said, so what you're telling me the person is not a dumpster fire as a person? Like, you know what, that's probably a fair description. But the idea of being inwardly sound is that I'm secure in who I am, comfortable in my own skin. I'm not looking to my followers to validate me every single second of every single day because I'm so insecure. You get somebody who's self aware, they understand strengths, weaknesses, here's where I excel. Here's where I need some work. You got somebody who's principled you use the word integrity that falls into that category. Is this a principled person who I can trust? You got somebody who's relatively, you know, they're an emotionally healthy person. They're not swinging up and down with every move. I mean, we are living and leading in some very turbulent times right now. So you know, unprecedented is the most common word I think I hear these days. Do you want a leader who is wildly swinging back and forth with all the ups and downs that are going on in the marketplace right now? Or do you want somebody who's got a steady hand? Of course, we want somebody who's not emotionally being blown all over the place. And you want somebody who has a sense of purpose. So these are the things we kind of talked about. What does it mean to be an inwardly sound person? And these are the things then that we have to work on. This is the part of our message, the part of the research, frankly, that is a little bit out of the norm. And, you know, I went to graduate school for business, and we did not talk about this in graduate school. We talked about finance, we talked about marketing, we talked about some organisational behavior, but we didn't talk about how sound we needed to be as human beings in order to lead well, in order to provide that stable foundation that others can trust. So, that's half of the equation on the inwardly sound side, so you want to jump over and talk about the others focus side or do you have a question on inwardly sound? Josh: That makes sense. I was interested to hear what the Yin to the Yang, maybe or hopefully another cool boat analogy. Tim: Probably won't be with the boat this time. But others focused means that when I roll out of bed in the morning, to go and read in the places where I read, that it is not about me. Endeavor is not about my ego, the endeavor is not about my bank account, my next promotion, that I am here to steward something. You know, I love that word, because it means that I don't own it forever and ever, I'm here to be a caretaker of it. I'm here to move it along. I'm here to move the people along, you know, that are under my charge, that I'm here. I'm not here as the leader on high to be served, but actually I'm here to reverse that role. I'm here to bring up and train up and be about the people that I'm leading, not just about myself. So the things that we talked about there where we encourage leaders to do significant personal work, it's about being curious. So this isn't like, I don't have all the answers and I'm willing to admit that. We talked about being empathic. You know, my emotional state’s not the only one that matters in the organisation. We talked about being attentive, which I'll say on that one in particular, and more and more, as the world gets more and more distractible more and more easily, you know, easily moved. And you know, when you, on your podcast with Oscar Trimboli, he talked about the art of listening. He talked about, you know, not being distracted. With technology, it's actually becoming easier and easier to stand out as a leader if you'll simply give somebody your attention. I mean, it's kind of a sad state of affairs, but it becomes a strategic advantage. And then the last two bits in there are a Greek word Agape, which means to selflessly care for others, and it's got an unconditional nature. So it's not about how you're behaving, it's I'm going to treat you with dignity and respect regardless of how you treat me. And then finally, an idea that lots of people are familiar with, but it's kind of elusive in the human condition, which is humility. And so when you combine those things, now, you've got a leader who's not only inwardly sound, but they're showing up not for their own gratification, not for their own enrichment, but they're showing up so that others in the organization and the mission can move forward. And when you bring those two things in combination, that’s 77% of leadership. Josh: That's amazing. So I know myself I started off thinking 13 years ago when I start a business, am I doing the right thing and I was the only cog and the only person in the business so it's easy to lead yourself, you'd think. You have to have a little bit of discipline to not jump onto Netflix or the like that are some of these other distractions, but as the business has grown, you brought up Oscar earlier and definitely being able to listen and hear is very, very important as opposed to just being present, I guess, with being present in the now and hearing exactly what someone's saying and understanding where they're coming from to be able to shift what you're doing. And I guess, from what you've been saying with being a leader, you did touch on it a little bit earlier, being leaders doesn't just stop at work, it's about being a leader at home as well. And I'd imagine being a leader isn't just about a hierarchal change between yourself and other staff members, as much as it can also be a shift in focus between the family of the business and the way that you speak and deal with clients. Would that be fair to say? Tim: Oh, yes, it's 100% true, because when you break leadership down to its most core components, it's a relationship. It's a relationship between the leader and those that he or she is leading. And so when you start to think about what creates great relationships, anything that's going to create healthy relationships is also going to be a huge addition to effective leadership. So going back to those two things, if I am a stable, sane, safe person that you can count on, and then I add into that, that it's not all about me, that's great for any relationship. And so whether you're talking about work or whether you're talking about at home, I'll say one of the most gratifying things that we get through experience in the work that we do with leaders is we pause quarterly, we go through a variety of those things that we were talking about, the makeup, you know, what does it mean to be inwardly sound and others focused? We pause quarterly and say, hey, let's take a step back from the mosaic of the last 90 days. And let's take a look at what we've seen, good and bad. And I get to hear amazing stories. And I will tell you probably in the neighborhood of 25% to, you know, probably 35% of the stories that I hear from our clients don't come from work, they come from home. One of the reasons that's gratifying it's not just because we're, you know, helping to make a contribution there. But, you know, families, it's weird to talk about families in a bottom line, because it's obviously very different than a business. But there are some bottom line things that we're after in our family just happens to not be finances. And when you see greater effectiveness and greater health coming into the family, you see better results, just like in a business. And what our clients begin to understand for their own betterment and for the betterment of the people they're leading, we come at it through the context of work, because we're able to show a measurable bottom line impact in work. But the truth is, if we're going to work on who we are, we got to work on who we are. Like, this is not my work self that I'm working on, it is the whole of me that I'm working on. So whether that most obvious first bit of progress happens at work or at home, we don't care, that indicates progress for the person as a whole human being. And that's going, if it shows up at home, it's going to begin to show up at work and vice versa. So we love all of that progress, because it's helping people lead more effectively, regardless of how they measure their bottom line. Josh: How do I know? Or how do we, do you have some tool or ability to measure to understand or is it how well I am leading or other people are leading that are listening at the moment. And the reason I asked this is, I find that people are always talking about being happy on Facebook or probably the ones that need to tell everyone that they're happy because they obviously don't feel happy. Does that make sense? So how do you have a sincere self reflection on if you are doing a good job with leadership or not? How can you find your who and make sure that that who is able to be understood, so that you once you understand that that's something you want to have changed, you have to understand it to be able to change it and then migrate from that spot in your mind and your mindset and your belief systems through to the new spot that you want to be and the goal that you have? How do you work out that transition? Or how do you find out where you start out really? Tim: Yeah, in the Google age where the search, the search box wants to finish what you're typing before you even put it in there, I have a very wildly unpopular answer, which is it takes three things. And we're going to talk about depth community and time for us to really grow and who we are. And I'm going to start with the last one, it takes time. Think about the analogy that we use with our clients with our leadership model is that of a tree. And I want you to think about the biggest healthiest tree you can imagine. I mean, I'm now thinking of some of the trees that I've had a chance to see in the Botanical Gardens in Sydney, they're right next to the opera house. Those are some of the most magnificent, amazing trees that I've ever seen in my life. Josh: Ah, we can be friends! Tim: Good, good. I'm glad. Josh How long did it take those trees to become that big and that strong? It took a while. [Yeah, absolutely] There was no little matrix blue pill that the tree was given. And magically, you know, it came up. So the disappointing news for many people is that there's no tip or trick for becoming a well developed who. It takes work and time. And if I could make that different for people, I promise you, I would. Like I would wave the magic wand. But that's not how humans develop. That's not how life works. So the first part of it is understanding to really work on who we are, it's going to take time. It also takes, and we'll go back to the first part now, it takes depth. We have to be willing, and this is the scary part. And I'll just put it out there because there's a lot of people be like, you know, if I can't do it quickly and easily then I don't want to do it. But what have we ever done in life? That was a great value that was done quickly and easily, like almost nothing. On the depth part, we have to be willing to pull up the rocks and look underneath. So we're not just looking at our outward behaviors, but we're looking at our motives and we're looking at our perspectives. And we have to be able to, you know, it's not just a question of how do we come off to other people, but you know, if I'm working to be more others focused, and part of that is becoming more humble and part of being humble is an eagerness to give acknowledgement and recognition to other people. Then one of the things we want to do is, is take a look at that over the course of, we usually use about 90 days per subject and to say, I'm going to look at myself through the prism of humility, and see, do I get excited about giving acknowledgement to others when I could kind of hug it for myself? If I don't get it excited about that, look, that doesn't make you a horrible person. That just means you have space for growth, and we all have space for growth. So welcome to the human condition. We all have ways in which we can grow. But that pointed focus over a period of time, in this case, I'm suggesting 90 days for each one of these subjects, that's what we do with our clients, is to really look deeply and I mentioned that you pull up those rocks and say, what really is my motive? What really is my intent? Am I just trying to look good? Or am I actually trying to be, in this case, for this example, am I trying to be a more humble person, a person who is willing to you know, here's another thing, look at any 90 day period, and ask yourself, how many times have I said, I'm sorry, or I was wrong? You and I both know people that cannot put those words together. You know, they they get there. They're like, you know, can't say I was wrong. I can't say I'm sorry. Those are indicators that we have space to work on. So you know, you know one activities I could just keep track of that for 90 days. How many times did I say I'm sorry, how many times again, what were analysing is the condition of our hearts. We're analysing the condition because what happens is people want to bring the whole of themselves on board for people that are that are on board for them. And so this gets back to the others focused idea. So let me hit on the last thing here community. Let's say I want to get healthier. And I'm going to start a workout practice. And I say, hey, Josh, will you be my workout partner, my workout buddy? And you say yes. And the alarm goes off at five in the morning, and we're supposed to meet at the gym at 5:30. If I know you're going to be there, my chances of showing up go way up. Way up. Some would suggest as much as five times up. And this idea because this is hard work, and because it takes time. We need people around us on the journey with us that are willing to tell us the truth about ourselves in a way that won't break the relationship, and who are also willing to be a little bit vulnerable and share about their journey as well. So imagine that you had a group of three or four people and say, hey, we're going to work on being more humble over the next 90 days, we really want to become that, we're going to trade some stories and how we're working on that. And we're going to travel in this way together to encourage people because it's hard. It's not easy. It takes time. We're going to see some stuff we're not proud of, let's do this together. You find that people have a much greater follow through on the inner development of who they are, when they have community around them. So I would say those are the key three things that we involve with our clients and all the work we do. But people don't have to work with us in order to apply those three things, you know, you can go do those things on your own. Depth, community and time are essential if we're going to work on the core of who we are as people. Josh: What you said, their own community pretty much comes down to accountability, doesn't it or not? Tim: Yeah, that’s part of it. There's also learning element. Yeah, you get to learn from others as well. Josh: I know. Just only what you're saying with the gym membership. I was a member of a gym for six years. And weirdly when the card set in my wallet, I didn't lose any weight. The moment I changed gym. Tim: That is strange. Josh: I know. I was paying the same price, I changed gyms. And when there was a class to go to and they're expecting you to be the class, you've been speaking to people in the class and you have in the nicest way possible have some fun competition, you don't necessarily go hey, I'm going to do more reps, I'm going to say sorry more times in your or whatever the case may be. But you have to okay that person that there is this you're looking at their body types about the same as mine. They're about the same fitness as me. Next week, I want to make sure I'm a better person, you definitely have that community and that feeling that definitely grows. I could totally see five times as a very achievable number because you have that and that's really cool. Definitely, with being able to build that into your business, and do you have much pushback from different people within the business structure that might be old fogies, dead wood or otherwise, that they're not really interested in applying and becoming that new person that is interested in being in the back of the warehouse or the number push or whatever they're doing the Voodoo that they've been doing for 30 years, or what do you do with that? Tim: You know, not nearly as much as I would have thought, honestly. Occasionally, you get somebody that can't get over the hump of how they've thought previously and how they've oriented. What I've seen many more times, is people who are open to the research. And I think it's really important to remember that that's where this comes from. And it's not only research that I got to be a part of with this group. A few years ago, Harvard Business Review published a really telling article from a consulting firm called KRW. And what they were measuring was positive character qualities of executives and executive team. They wanted to look at the financial performance. And what they found in that study was nearly again, the five times in a company, I believe was 4.8 times return on assets from the highest rated executives and executive teams on characteristics. And I'll find that in just a second from the lowest. And so what they were measuring. This is really interesting in terms of the parallel, they were measuring integrity and responsibility, remember those two together, and they were measuring compassion and forgiveness. When somebody said somebody is measuring compassion and forgiveness from the executive suite, really, somebody is actually doing that research. I was blown away that it existed. But think about this for just a second. They're measuring executive and executive teams on those four things, integrity and responsibility, that's about being inwardly sound. Compassion and forgiveness, that's about being others focus. So the words in the research was a little bit different, but it points in the exact same direction. And so, there's other works. David Byrum, who is a consultant who works out of Sydney with Human Synergistics. They have done longitudinal studies. They have over 2 million data points. They've been around for decades, and they're cut across all cultures, any demographic split you can imagine, they have found this exact same trend in their work. They call it constructive styles. But it's the same content. And so you look at these various pieces of data. And when you start to look for it, you're going to begin to see it everywhere. And that is to say, back to your question, do people really push back against that? Once they understand that there's research behind this, and not somebody saying I had a dream and therefore I woke up one day and decided this is what leadership is really about. We weren't even looking for it. We were not looking for this. The statistical software found it. There's other places who have found similar stories. And I'll just put this as the sealer for it. If you want to go around and ask people who is the best leader you've ever followed personally, and they do that thought process and then you ask this question. Why is that person on that list? Why does that person come to mind? If you listen to the answer, the vast, vast majority of what people will say it when they answer why, you're going to hear them talk about who that person is, as a human being. I have never had somebody answer that question by saying, you can't believe how great he was at Microsoft Excel. Never. Not in the history of that question. And what's even more amazing is rarely in the business space do people even talk about profit, they immediately start to talk about the quality of the human being that was the best leader they've ever followed. So when people look at the data, and then they start to look at their own history, and they see alignment, I think many of them become open to the idea, then they start to do it, then they really see how it has worked and has been working and it's working whether they're aware of it or not. It's working all the time around them. It's a question, are you going to go ahead and embrace the fact that gravity exists or you're going to ignore it? And, of course, we want people to embrace it so they can move the leadership forward. Josh: Cool. So don't we ask the question around this time of the podcast around what's your favorite book? But I think you've got a bit of an interesting answer to that one that I think I already know what the answer is. Tell me about your book, unless it's not your favorite. Tim: Well, hopefully, I've got some other favourite books. But, I'll take you up on the question anyway. So the book is called the only leaders worth following. And what it does is it outlines the research. So that's the first part, let's understand what we're talking about. So it goes into greater depth of the themes that we've been talking about. And then it spends the rest of the book diving deeply into these various realities of being inwardly sound and others focus and how they play themselves out to create a more effective leader. And so ultimately, we want to give people not only the data, but also the anecdotes. I think we need both. I think stories help us understand data, data helps us understand stories. I think we need both. But that is the idea of the book, to help people understand the research and then see it in real life stories and begin to think about what are the things that I need to work on? What are the things that I need to do to become a more effective leader? Now there's a different readership for the book in addition to that, which kind of the title handset which is, you know, the only leader worth following. And if you're somebody that says, Look, I don't even know that I'm interested in leadership as something that I want to do. But I bet you're interested in choosing the right leader to follow. I bet because leaders have a profound impact on our day to day experience they can make life really, really rewarding and fulfilling, even when the work is hard. They can also suck the life out of us. And that's not just the work life, they can suck the whole of life out of us. And so to really help people orient towards how they evaluate the leaders they want to follow, that's another quality, that's another way that this book can be put to use. So the only leaders worth following is about unpacking what we've been talking about what we call the who, not what principle, it details the research on that and then digs deeply into it so people can really understand the truth of that 77% about leadership. Josh: What we're going to do is we're going to make sure to have a link there so that people can check that out on your website. I definitely think that sounds like a very good quality first step towards going down the path of leadership and finding out your who. Who is the leader that you look up to, Tim? Tim: Oh, my goodness. Well, there are a lot of leaders that I have looked up to over the years, and I've been very blessed to, I've been very blessed to be around some really exceptional leaders. One of those leaders is my father. My father, started a business. And I kind of watched him about, you know, one of the great lessons I learned from my father, fell into that category of humility. I would watch him interact with the top people around him, and then I would watch him interact with the cleaning staff, and it was identical. He didn't treat them any differently. And I learned, you know, learned about humility from him. I think probably for the rest of my life I'll be striving to get like halfway on that scale to where my father is. He's definitely significantly more well developed in that arena than I am. I played basketball collegiately and I played for a Hall of Fame coach here in the States named Gene Keady. He was another person who was really sound person, a quality person. And I know perhaps not a lot of folks in Australia will have heard of Gene Keady, but he's a great person to follow. Now, I've got somebody in Australia that well, not technically in Australia, but I'm going to say a name that the business community in Australia is going to be familiar with, who was very, very well known in Australia, and then recently has in the process of leaving his current position that is a bit controversial right now. But I'm going to name out this person because he has been an incredible leader in my life and he is a great example of these two things of being inwardly sound and othes focused. And that is Mike Kane, who is in the process of finishing up his post at Boral. Now, you know, I've read all the things that are in the Australian papers about Mike, and I know Mike personally, and he's been a huge influence in my life. And I'll just say that there is so much more substance than what is reported in the paper. So I'll just, I mean, perhaps the listeners aren't shocked to learn that there's more to what's being written in in a paper whose goal is to sell ads. So I'll say that. But Mike Kane had an incredible run up at the start of his time. I understand that some people watch the stock price have Boral in the last couple of years and they have some questions. And I get that around the strategy side, but as far as somebody who I would personally run through a wall for because he is those two things of been inwardly sound and others focused, Mike Kane is near the top of my list. Even though you’re going to ask me that question. And I realised that there are a variety of opinions about Mike right now flying around in the business community, especially in Sydney. But I will tell you, he is a first-rate leader. Josh: Different leaders for different reasons. Your father is a big figure, you've got Mike Kane there as a business figure as well as then health fitness and recreational stuff. I like that, I didn't know what you're going to say. So I was very impressed with that. Because when you said it earlier, it sounds like ooh, who would be my leader, I don't know Tim: Well, think about that. That's worth thinking about. Josh: I thought dad definitely, Nikola Tesla, not Elon Musk, the car guy. I'm like, no, he helped the world in so many ways with the technologies that he created. And his name wasn't even really mentioned or heard of for another 80, 90 years. And the money that he had, he died in poverty. He wasn't lavish with the money that he got, and he didn't want war. And so you'd go to several countries and give them the same presentation. So he was funded by lots of countries that no one had a different, more unique approach to be able to jump into war. So I thought Nikola Tesla would definitely be up there for me and that's as high level humility. And dad has always been there to teach me very much what you're saying. It doesn't matter who they are in business, everyone's at the same at the end of the day, just blood and bones. And we need to be able to have that knowledge that everyone's here for the same amount of time. We all live the same way, and they be there and everyone has a story and it doesn't matter who you're talking to, you should not talk down. You should make sure you're always there and present to hear what they're all about. Tim: I'll encourage you with this and maybe some folks who are listening, maybe they've done this, they started to do this exercise with us as well, who are the best leaders that you've ever followed? And you begin to think about for many people and family members and coaches and teachers at young ages are folks that especially influences earlier in our careers, as you think about who those people are, and you begin to maybe even make a little list of the whys. Why did that person make it on your list? I'll encourage you to do something that will bless you, the listener, as well as the other person is call them up and tell them, write them a note. Tell them that I was asked this question, and you came to mind and here's why. That kind of stuff in life is priceless. Don't miss that opportunity. You will never be sorry for letting somebody know that they came to mind, that that person came to mind when they were asked who's the best leader you've ever followed? Josh: I love that. That's fantastic. And when I started the podcast many, not nearly two years ago, I thought, who would I like to have on the podcast? And I thought of the people that really changed my mind and changed the way of my thinking. Are you familiar with Bob Berg from the go giver? Tim: I'm not. I'm not. Josh: Bob Berg from The Go Giver. Fantastic book that I read that goes through and describes how to make sure that you're giving more than you're receiving and you're doing the things the way that business should be done. And it's not all just about numbers. And the other one was by a guy named Dr. Larry Little, Tim: You did have him on the show? Josh: I did. I had them both on the show. I reached out to them, and I said you've impacted the way that my life has worked, and the way that I've done business, and I've bought your books many times as gifts for clients because the readings have truly influenced me in the direction that I've gone and I thought I'm going to ask them like they're not gonna say yes, they got better things to do with their time. And they both said, sure, I'd love to be on the show. That was my American accent. And it was fantastic. Tim: I'm not even going to try an Aussie accent because it would be awful. It would be awful. So, you had them on and they both came on and you got to do those interviews. Josh: Both came on both go to do the interviews and very, very blessed to be able to have them on the show and be able to hear one on one what they were all about. And I thought, no way would this Nikola Tesla is going to be harder to say I really like his leadership skills, I have to do some ulterior method. Tim: That would be a creative interviewing process. If you think about what Dr. Little talked about. He talked about servant leadership. And he talked about the question of why are you leading and that leads us right back to that others focused piece that we were talking about earlier. He He's on to onto that part of it that's so very important. So yeah, I'm not as familiar with Bob Berg, but Dr. Little's interview with you, yeah. Josh: If there's anyone out there in podcast land that's keen to hear a bit more information, Tim has been nice enough to give us a link, theonlyleaders.com. If you jump across there, he's got a fantastic opportunity for you guys to have himself and his team deep dive in with 20% off for your digital journey through them. Is there anything else you'd like to go through on that offer that I haven't quite covered off on there? Or do you want to jump into a bit more detail on what they're looking forward to seeing in that? Tim: Yeah, well, you know, in the internet space, you have to be very clear on what the website is, right? So in terms of, you know, you punch it in to the search, you're like, oh, I hope it's available. I hope it's available. So what's really important about what you said is the only leaders, you got to get THE, and so theonlyleaders.com. And you mentioned the 20% off we take leaders on what we call journeys. You can imagine given what we've talked about, I keep talking about how hard and difficult and challenging it is. So we thought, well, let's just call it what it is. It's a journey. And it's challenging. As we take leaders on that, we do have the 20% off there for your listeners. So what they do is they would put in a promo code there. And if you put in the BBF, for the name of your podcast, then that will lock in when we get those digital journeys ready to go. And then also, if you're not interested in buying anything, we certainly want to be of help regardless of whether somebody's buying something. So you go to that same website, you can sign up to get a free copy of our study guide that goes along with the book. I suppose now that I say that then I guess it's only valuable if you buy a copy of the book, but you would also receive other free material that we're putting out as well. So there's opportunity to just sign up to be a part of the email list and get some free information, free content from us that we're producing as well. Josh: Tim, I've loved having you on the show. And is there any other questions you had for me or our listeners, I can only answer for me though. Tim: You can only answer for you. Well, you know, I might just go with a rhetorical question that parrots back with Dr. Little says, and that is if you're a leader, why are you leading? I mean, and that is, and I mean, to me, that's a question to think about. What is the purpose of my leadership? Is it just to enrich myself? Is it just to make money? Is it you know, what is it? Is it just some of those things? And look, there are people who are successful at making money, successful in their businesses without having kind of a profoundly positive answer to that question. However, what I would offer as we close out and think about that question, for all of us to think about, why am I leading, is that if we're not able to get to a spot in our life, where the answer to that question has something to do with others, we will never truly know what our full potential was. And I don't mean that in like an esoteric out in the universe kind of way, I actually mean that at the bottom line. Even at the bottom line, you'll never know what your potential was, so long as you're only in it for yourself, because we don't get that discretionary effort out of people. if we’re there for ourselves, they're well aware of it. No matter what words we use, no matter how we try to cover it up. And so why are you leading? Yes, perhaps there's a fulfillment question that lives within that question. But there's also hey, what's possible? What could you and your family or your organisation, what could you see if the answer to that question was, well, part of the reason why I'm leading is for the sake of others, for the sake of what they get out of being under my leadership. So it's tough to answer those questions honestly, because we want the answers to be really, really nice. And really, really positive. But we have to be honest with ourselves if we're really going to grow and develop. So I put that question, the final question is perhaps not one to answer today, but to sit with maybe for the next couple of weeks. What if you were to take a piece of paper and just put it somewhere where you saw it repeatedly that said, why am I leading? And you put a little energy into thinking about that, and challenge yourself to think about being more inwardly sound and others focused. Josh: That's brilliant. I'll be having a bit of think about it myself. I've got a quote wall that that I have there and that'll be getting added to it so that I can make sure to continue thinking about the who and the why. That's really good. Anyone out there that's been listening, if you have enjoyed this episode, make sure to jump across to iTunes, leave us some love, give us some feedback, and stay healthy, stay good. And thank you very much for being on the show. Tim. Tim: Thank you. Really, really great to be here with you.

Using Strategic Planning to Recession-Proof Your Business With Kathy Bowman Atkins Josh: G’day everyone out there in podcast land, we’ve got Kathy Bowman Atkins from Lattitude group who's going to be talking today about how to recession proof your business via strategic planning. A lot of people have felt a bit of pressure of recent with some of the different evolutions that have been happening around the globe and pandemics and whatnot. And this is by far one of the most relevant podcasts episodes that you should all be listening to. So, Kathy, tell me, what is the step one, what is step one when it comes to strategic planning, especially in a time when there's 100 other things that you juggling? Kathy: Well, step one for strategic planning, whether it's in crisis time or good times, is to get the leadership on board. A lot of people think you know, it's hired this consultant, use this process, you know, XYZ, you know, elements, cover these things. If you don't have the leadership on board, the owners and so forth, and they're not behind it. I don't care who you hire, how good they are, how good the process is, you have to have the leadership on board. That's step one. And we talk to business owners and leaders about that very thing, Josh, when they talk to us about helping them. We have to get their commitment or it's a no go. Josh: That makes a lot of sense. So you want to obviously make sure that you have the planning and you have the right model there. So when you are bringing that into place for full leadership. If you've got a business where you've been running it for many years, and you think that you're a leader, but you may not notice the signs of micromanagement, and you think you've got a healthy team and a lot of people don't change things because they're not aware that they need to change things. How can you see the telltale signs that maybe you're running, running a business, wearing suspenders and using the fax machine or you’re living in the 1980s, early 1990s? And maybe you need to change the way your mindset is, how can you sort of start to pivot that without destroying the relationships you have in the business? Or the way you're working? Kathy: It's a really great question. And we've done that more than once. And we feel like that that's one of the things that people hire us for. It's not just to pump out a strategic plan is to tell them the hard truth, tell them the things that they need to do to make the progress they need to. So the way we do that is that there's a few ways that we do that. When we begin, we talked to key players in the business, not just the owners, not just what we call the sponsors, the people who have hired us, who've signed on the dotted line, okay? We want to talk to people across the business, okay, at every level in the business. So we conduct interviews with those folks. And we conduct interviews with all of the leaders individually, all the people that are going to be directly involved with the strategic planning process, because the truth of the matter is, no matter how open an environment, how open a culture that a company may have, or may think they have, there are things that the owners and the leaders don't know that people in the organisation can tell them. We're pretty honest brokers. And it's very important to be authentic. So we can develop trust and rapport with folks pretty quickly. And by the time we get ready to even put together the process for that strategic plan, that we have the tools, but there's certain customization depending on the company, we have a pretty good idea of where the big warts are, quite frankly, where the big problems are in the company. And so we go and sit down and talk to people and even leaders and say, Hey, here's some things that we've heard, here's some things that we're going to need to work on or you're going to need to work on to make this work. We're willing to work with you, we can help you, but you have to be willing to do it. So we have to have those honest conversations up front to make that happen. Now, what we have found over time, which is really interesting, Josh, in the early days of doing this, when we would come across that situation, my business partner and I, one of us in Canada that first would look at the other and say well we need to do this, but we're probably going to get fired today, you know, they're probably going to let us go. And it's not happened yet. Because people, for the most part, really appreciate that now you don't walk in there and tell them how lousy they are, etc. Because that's not the case. You know, these people have done a lot right to, you know, to form companies or to become leaders of companies. And so we're telling them in in a way that keeps the whole what they need to do. I mean, we've literally had conversations with business owners who started a business and ran them 20 years and said, if you don't step aside, and let us help your new leadership, you're not going to achieve the things that you say you want to achieve for this company and for your future, etc. And it's happened. So, you know, that's the way we do it. So, most of the time, it happens just from that upfront due diligence that we do and talking to people, Josh, and honestly, but as we get into the process, you know, by that we work with companies, we absolutely develop strong relationships with these folks, and I think that's really important. We really get ingrained in those companies. So we know what's going on. And we have that kind of trust. So that as those things come up, we can apart, you know, deal with them, and talk to them about them. So that's what's really key, in my opinion. Josh: S o you brought up a lot of good points there. For you and any of your listeners out there. A lot of what we do is around trying to find inefficiencies in business. So we do that for allowing them to automate tasks or create procedural documentation that allows them to have systematized tasks that betters their processes. We do it definitely more with a technology twist on it rather than anything else. And we find people that are dead wood in the business, and a lot of businesses big businesses or businesses that have been around for a while people get lazy if they haven't had KPIs to it to adhere to. And you end up having this issue with dead wood. How can you pivot that deadwood or does it come down to sort of a bit of a hard truth? Kathy: Well, there's not a one size fits all answer to that question, Josh. But there are multiple answers and all of which can work. I'm gonna start with the end in mind. And the end in mind is if someone is deadwood, you have to resolve that issue and you have to resolve that issue and keep people home. Okay? There's no benefit to doing that in a way that demeans people, degrades people, etc., etc. So, we take a look at, okay, is it a capability issue? Is it an attitude issue? Is it a fit issue? In other words, that they don't fit where they are? Could they fit somewhere else? And whatever that issue is, we look at what are the answers? Is there a way to help them to change that attitude to find that path? What's in it for them to do that, to make an attitude change? And if none of those things are possible, then it's about sitting down and having the honest conversation And, you know, I find nine times out of ten that people want to have the honest conversation that says, You know what, this is not working out. We don't see a good place for you here, we don't see you being happy here. Okay? Being your you know, your best and highest use, you know, reaching your potential here. And so you know, we think it's you know the right time for us to part ways. We'll help you in any way we can, you know, to transition out of this, but that's the best thing for everybody. And if you do that way, keep people home and treat them as human beings and as people not objects of the business, nine times out of ten, they end up saying you're right. Occasionally they don't but after the fact they do, I mean I say this all the time through the years I have walked plenty of people out the door, unfortunately. And I still get Christmas cards from many of them. I still go to lunch with several of them because it was the best thing for everyone. And that's the end that you want to get to, what's the best solution for everybody. Josh: I completely agree, you should be treating your team like family instead of assets or liabilities. I'm happy enough to say that I have a team of unicorns and it didn't happen easily. But in the latest situation that we've had with the pandemic, we've managed to have had some of those hard conversations around what direction do you see this business going? How do you feel should be going with you? And with the intention of other reducing hours or standing people down? And it was a very, very difficult conversation to have with people that we've been working with for years. And their results in the answers they gave to us brought a tear to my eye, I'm actually getting a bit teary even thinking about it anyway. But they said we want to do anything possible to better the business and to put the business entity advantage even if it means we're working full time, but we're not working for full pay. And one of the employees even said that they're in a position where they don't need the money, particularly, they're happy to work for free until we can get out of this hole. And I thought that's a fantastic team where we were all running in the same direction. We're all pulling in in the same direction, everyone's blowing wind in the sails to get us to the same spot. It made me feel good. And it really came down to the attitude of the team. And I think what you're saying there about that, it's all about shifting attitude and making sure that everyone's goals align with the business goals. So I'd imagine there's a few different bits and pieces that you guys use to sort of test and allow for people's emotions and their characters to come out. So do you use the same sort of tools when trying to align the staff and leaders and everyone's mindset with the same common goals? Kathy: We do. We've used Myers Briggs, we have used this and a couple of others. And it just depends on what the situation is in the company, you know, and what the culture and the nature of the organization is. Finding the right tool. There's two things finding a valid tool, all assessments out there aren't valid, and finding the one that fits the culture, that organisation. And the third one is, you know, being a facilitator or consultant that knows how to debrief that and to help them to use that appropriately. Because that's important too. You just can't do a Myers Briggs and hand the report out to everybody and say, okay, there it is. Josh: What do I do with this? Everyone needs to be sharing their results, they understand the emotions of how to talk to people. There's a book that I read called the five love languages, unless you're really close to the stuff probably not relevant. It still lets you to understand how two different parties are talking and communicating together. And I think that's really important, to make sure that if you're dealing with someone that's talking in a for instance, I'm not detail oriented. If someone says the job is finished, and this is and you've been out to achieve the objectives of what the original goal was set out, that's awesome. If they spent 10 hours doing the doing the spreadsheet and I've got the number out that I wanted at the end, awesome, but I don't need to know every single formula, the pivot tables, and everything else to it to achieve that. But some of the staff love telling me all about it. And so of course, of course I'm going to sit there and make sure that we're all lining in that regard, because you don't want to sort of just offset all their hard work and say, I don't care. Okay, good, I got the number, cool. And then you walk off, it sort of completely deflates them. So it's, I guess, about understanding how to communicate with people. And I guess, again, coming down to attitude. Kathy: It is, and, you know, this really ties into something that you and I talked about. I know that our staffs talked about in booking this, you and I talked about a little bit before this, how that strategic planning ties into this topic. You know, we all should be as business owners and leaders looking to put together teams that have aligned goals and values, correct. I mean, that's what really makes it work. We can think differently, we can process differently. But if we have aligned goals and values, having that kind of diversity of thinking and approaches is really powerful for us. And for a business, it's the same thing. Having a strategic business plan gives us that roadmap for everyone to align around. Okay? And know what they are applying in a you know, their own goals, how that ties to the company's goals, the direction we're heading. And how that helps everybody in the mix. Helps you, helps me, helps the company, the owner, whoever it is, and I. And so that's part of where, you know, strategic planning for business is just as important as having individual goals for all the individuals in the business. And, you know, having the KPIs, the key performance indicators or the metrics to manage too, you know, to see how we're doing. So it's kind of the same concept on a business level. Josh: Okay. So when you say strategic business plan, a lot of people I know will say I've got a business plan or a freak out of it. I know myself, I'm great at making a very simple thing over complicated. When I was younger, many, many years ago, maybe 20 years ago, I was developing something in my bedroom, which allowed me to open and close the bedroom door with a remote control. So I clicked the remote controller unlocks the door, opens the door, let someone in, click another button that closes the door and shuts it and my brother said that would take you 120 to 150 hours to build that. He's an electronic engineer. I said yeah. And he goes how many times could you have got up and open and close the door. Yeah, okay, that's right. I've automated something that doesn't need automating. And that's sort of what my first sort of aha moments with automation. So how do you make sure that you're focusing on the right things, you don't overcomplicate it, I know some people say a business plan to start off with doesn't need to be longer than half a page. But obviously, to really dive into some details, and ours is 16 pages long for the basic business plan and 70 for the longer business plan. But again, as I said, I go to too much detail. Kathy: But that's an excellent question. And this is where a lot of people fall off in a table with regard to strategic planning. You know, the key to strategic planning, we have tools and processes that we use, they're tried and true, and they're good, but they are a framework. What's really important is understanding upfront what the owners want, okay? They put in the sweat, equity, etc. They're here now, they want to get here and based on their business, their culture, okay, their values, what they're trying to accomplish their goals, right? Putting together the plan that's right for them. A lot of times people say, oh, you know, we're going to talk about processes, right? And you're going to bring in a list of processes, you know, 20 processes and try to cram down our throats? No, that's not the right thing to do. We're going to sit down and look at it with you, and you know the business better than we do. But we have a tool to be able to say, what processes should you have? Now, what are the key processes you should have in the business? And do you have them? If you have them, are they working or what needs to improve about them? That's pretty simple. At the end of the day, Josh. Now they're having the right tools to get people to do that. So we're starting with that. So we're looking at things that way. And we have a process that starts up here and says, these are all the things we you know, this big funnel, these are all the things we need to work on. There's processes and their systems, right. And there's some people issues, and there's equipment issues and you know, all kinds of things. And then we start whittling that down through our process that says, what's the most important thing? You know, what are the biggest obstacles? And we look at that through, you know, internal assessments and external assessors. So that all sounds very complicated, you know, but we do that with tools. People do a lot of work up front, so that by the time we walk in, in two days, we come up with a comprehensive strategic plan. And I don't care what size the company is, for a 12-month plan, which is what most of the detailed plans are. Now we look out five years just say Where do you want to be five years for most businesses, so we know what the long haul is, so to speak. But we do a detailed plan for most of the time for 12 months out. And we look at that company and say, you know what, we really don't want there to be more than eight goals for the company for that 12 months, because then we get a flight we have to flush those goals out into who does what by when what role the steps to achieve that. So that gets big enough, correct? Josh: Absolutely. Katy: And the other thing that we do, rather than handing people some big book to put on the shelf to collect dust, because that's what generally happens, we do two things. We give them their plan on one page, okay, and all of the relevant information about that plan that everybody in the company should have and be looking at, and understand it and understand how what they do ties into that. They have one page that they can look at, and it can be their barometer, the rudder, whatever you want to call it, any day, anytime making a decision. And then behind that, we use project management software, we set up a portal for their company, where they manage those goals and action plans. And we meet with them every month. So we insist that if they want to work with us that they have to agree to our change management accountability aspect of this. In other words, we're not going to go through this whole process and put it on the shelf. We're going to have a schedule meeting every month and we're going to look at this plan. We're going to use a signal light approach, what's working, what's not, we're going to make adjustments because I can tell you the minute that he drives on that proverbial plan, something's going to change. And we're going to make adjustments, we're going to look at the financials, and see how that's going and where we need to make adjustments. So we're continually doing that change management. So that's how you whittle it down. That's how you manage it. But that's why you need leadership. As I said, right at the top of the program, if people if the leaders inside the business aren't making sure that everybody knows the strategic plan and monitoring it and executing on it appropriately adjusting it is not part of their job, guess what? It doesn't happen. Josh: So, from what we've been speaking about so far, if I was to sum up in one sentence, a strategic plan is about accountability, timelines, infrastructure and goals, tying them together with small tested improvements, monitoring it over time. What else would you add to that to make that more true? Or how did that sound? Kathy: That’s really good. Would you like to come to work for us? Josh: Hahaha. We are just a small flight away. Yes, we'll jump on and get that happening. That's the elevator pitch, I guess, on the strategic plan. So, that's cool. Okay, so that that makes it very easy to break down. And you did speak quite a bit about tools, and a lot of people that are going to be listening to this, they're gonna be wondering, okay, what tools can we use? So, if you were to pick the top two tools that anyone can jump into right now, to gain more visibility into their business, or to start heading in the right direction, even if that's making up a back of handkerchief example, of a strategic plan, what tools would you say they could jump into and check out? Kathy: Well, you know, the very first thing is to figure out, this isn’t a tool. This is, you know, where's it that you want to take your company? Now, what's your purpose, what is it you want, what's your vision? Where do you want to take it? You have to know where you want to get to, in order to figure out how to get there. So if you are doing the back of the envelope thing, as you mentioned, you don't want to hire someone, you don't want to go through some big process. We have a lot of great processes, but there's one that you can't go wrong with. And that's a SWOT analysis, the strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats, okay. It's probably the thing that covers most elements of a business, if you do it well in a single process. Now, we have a lot of other processes that focus on things, but that one is tried and true. And it can cover a lot of ground. Josh: Most people should be pretty familiar with them, if you're not. What are you doing? Get into it! I think this is kind of like a should be a clear cut answer. But what size of businesses should be looking to strategic planning? Should this be something that they're obviously looking at the start before they've even turned over $1 when they're looking to throw it to the boss and say, now I'm going out on my own or is this something that they should be waiting until they've got some structure in place? Kathy: Well, every business even as they're looking to start up, they need a business plan. They need a plan that says, okay, what do I need to start this business in terms of resources? Okay? And to start it up with the resources and get me through the first couple of years. The kind of strategic planning that we do, which is with established companies, we're not really working with startups so much at all, quite frankly, Josh, that's a little more comprehensive. And that can range from having one strategic planning team that has some folks across the business and is pretty comprehensive. Okay. We will get strategies too. Larger companies where we do something with an executive team and then we cascade down through different organisations and they do their own strategic plans to support the company, goals and direction. So it depends. So everybody should be doing some planning. You know, we started this talking about recession proof strategic planning. The thing that is to make you recession proof is to do your planning upfront. It is strategic to have a plan. So that's one thing. Now how strategic you want to be in that planning process is a different matter. And that depends on where you are. So, you know, a good way to think about that and wrapping this up right now we're breaking things down into six months. Okay, module so to speak. Most people don't know what's going to happen. So we got to survive for six months, we have to get through this. Okay? And that's really pretty much a cash and opportunity exercise. It's not very much strategic from the standpoint of what our strategy is, you know, and all this kind of stuff. And so we call that emergent strategic planning. Then there's the next six months, which is resurgence. Okay. So we've survived, we've gotten through this. How do we now start, you know, going back up? What do we bring back? When do we bring it back? And what does it look like? What lessons did we learn from all of this, right? And so we're putting that in a six month chart. And then we're talking about a six-month chunk of convergence planning. What that means is, people are going to start figuring out what the new reality looks like. Or they're going to make their assumptions about what it looks like and we can get more strategic and start looking a little bit further out. And taking advantage of these lessons learned and what the new realities are. Josh: Emergent strategic planning, I guess it's all about when things change. To make sure your emergent emerge from crisis and out to be stronger, would that be fair to say? Kathy: Yes, our mantra to everybody right now. Thank you for reminding me. We're saying to my business, and to every business, you had better come out stronger as people and as a business on the other side of this than you did going in? Josh: Cool. Well, I definitely think this is more relevant now than ever before. And for anyone out there that is listening and thinking, man, this sounds like too much. I've already got too much on my plate. There’s so many government incentives that I'm looking at or new stimulus packages, and I just want to keep myself with a head above water. And there's a place you can go. And Kathy Bowman Atkins from Lattitude Group has a fantastic offer here for one hour consultations. Would you like to tell us a bit more about how that can help small businesses? Kathy: Well, it's interesting, you know, people call us up and they say, Okay, this is where things are now. And I might say, what are the biggest obstacles? You know, top of mind, if we could only cover one thing in this hour? What's the biggest thing that is bothering you that that we could help you resolve? So we start there. Now generally, what happens is we can cover two or three things at an hour, you'd be amazed at how much ground you can cover. If they don't know, they’ll say, you know, I'm just really paralyzed. I don't know what to do. Right, then we start asking them some questions. Yeah, have you availed yourself to all the resources that are out there? Have you looked into them? Do you know what's out there? Okay. Let's make some assumptions about the worst possible case, okay, for the next six months, and that's what we have to look at, what is the absolute metric or two that you have to manage to over the next six months? For some people, it's pretty simple. Cash flow. I have to be able to maintain positive cash flow. Josh: That's mine.] Kathy: And so whatever we have to do, that we can help them to say, okay, in order to accomplish that, what are the steps we have to take? And what metrics do we have to be looking at all the time, because in this case, volume is going to be your leading indicator. In normal times, it isn't always your leading indicator. We're going to wait for the volume to materialize before we make moves like, you know, bringing people back because that we've had to lay off for certain vendors are no different things that we've put on hold. And that's the way we're doing it. So it depends, but those are the kinds of things that you do. So there's all kinds of things that can happen. We know … we need to know how to tap into these resources. Okay, we need to know how to furlough people, or what's the best approach to take. And we can, you know, we can help them with all of that. Josh: Well, anyone that's interested to have a consultation with Kathy, we're going to be putting a link in the description here for the podcast, as well as on the blog. Keep an eye out for that. And I think you're going to find that in one hour, you're going to completely revolutionise the direction of your business. Totally worth your time. And one thing I want to sort of say, in closing to ask you in closing is if there was to be one book they would say is your Bible, so to speak, is going to be the first step towards better leadership and strategic planning. What would be that one book that people should read or one resource that people should be listening to? Whether that be a news outlet or something like that? What should people be tuning into? Kathy: Gosh, there are many Josh, but I will tell you my go to book and it's not a new one. But I think in terms of leadership and self development, which is the key to all of this, it really is the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. And that book goes way back, but I'm going to tell you, it's tried and true. And if people will adopt those and make those habits as leaders, it's really significant. Josh: For anyone out there that obviously is listening you can't see next to my bed, but it's sitting next to my bed right now. And, I've picked it up for a second time and rereading through it. So it's definitely worth its weight in gold. And it's a reasonably sized book. So that's saying a lot, it worth its weight in gold. It is. That's right. Well, Kathy, it's been lovely having you on the show. And is there anything else that you would like to cover off on before we pathways? Kathy: The only thing that I would say is, you know, even as a company that prides itself, and myself on being, you know, a strategic planning guru and all that kind of thing and you know, a purist when it comes to strategic planning. And I think all the businesses have to think about this no matter what business they're in that may be passionate for you. Right now you have to think about what's realistic and what can really help people. So you know, we're doing these six months module strategic planning things in a day or you know, prep for a week and then go in for a day at the end day and making them very reasonably priced. And we've never been a company that our value proposition was priced. We're not, you know the low cost option. But you know, you've got to remember where people are right now. And I think that's key for business leaders and owners right now. Josh: I completely agree. We've released a new product range that we're calling the dollar IT club which is focusing heavily on helping businesses out in the time of crisis, not putting more pressure on a saw that they've already got there. And I think that building and nurturing that relationship at the start will build a bigger and better things and show your worth. Kathy: Exactly! Josh: If anyone has enjoyed this episode. Make sure to jump across to iTunes, leave us some love. Give us some feedback. We'll put all Kathy's details here in the in the episode so you can get in contact with her, and stay healthy and stay good. Kathy: Thank you so much, Josh.

Avoiding Financial Blunders With Tracey Bissett Josh: G’day out there in podcast land, we've got a fantastic guest today, we’ve got Tracey Bissett from Bissett Financial Fitness. She is your PT coach to financial wealth and we're going to be talking about entrepreneurial blunders and what to look out for to stay profitable. So Tracey, let's say hypothetically, I've just started my business. I'm going to be a millionaire in 12 months. That's what we all think, yeah, we're all going to be a millionaire in 12 months and we're going to be retired in two years and there's going to be a Lambo parked out at the front. So what do you think is the first thing we should be looking at to realise that is probably a fallacy? Learn more on how to avoid financial blunders at dorksdelivered.com.au Tracey: Well, a few things. So the first thing I would want you to look at is to make sure as owner, you are fully accountable for the financial position of the company, which means you got to look at those numbers. You don't have to do your own bookkeeping. You don't have to do your own accounting, but you certainly need to get it done properly and look at those numbers monthly, and make sure you know what they're saying. So when most entrepreneurs go into business they're super passionate about their product or their service they deliver. And financial matters are not necessarily part of their education. So if that's not your strength, you want to learn as much as you can, certainly outsource the doing but make sure that you can make decisions based on your numbers and take full responsibility for it. Josh: I can absolutely resonate with what you're saying because I started the business 13 years ago and I have an engineering background, which means I love attention to detail and I love seeing a product finish. I'm not great at marketing or I wasn't great at marketing the products at that stage. So I would have likened myself to the at that stage, the kidneys garage of mum and dad's that the cure for cancer that has it sitting on a shelf to then find out something some other cool project to work on. Probably something that lights up. So that was that was me and I found that I started looking into books in bits and pieces. Those were few different government publications that came out around GST and tax and the business activity statements and I read all this stuff and it was kind of like reading a terms of service with a credit card. It's quite thick reading if you don't know what you're doing. And I read it and then I came to a spot on it, you know what, I can keep reading as much as I want but I'm not going to be able to be as good as the people that are out there that are doing this day in day out the people. The personal trainers are generally pretty fit people and yourself, I would say if you're if you're there doing the financial fitness, you're going to be pretty fit in exactly what you're doing and pretty experienced. One of the best things that I did was deciding that I didn't want to wear that hat anymore and giving it off to someone else to wear. But what my question is, sometimes is a bit of a gray area and I know I had this trap, which is you've got a bookkeeper, you've got an accountant, you can then sometimes have a financial advisor, and then a business coach. And then you've got yourself with your own ideas and it becomes a bit blurry as to the lines as to whose responsibility is what. I know some people will say all my receipts are in a shoe box in the back there I give them to the bookkeeper once a month, and it's up to them with whatever happens next, I just keep doing the voodoo that I do. So how do you make sure that there's a clear cut and defined line? Or is that something that the entrepreneur needs to learn or they need to define and then pass out to everyone else? Tracey: Yeah, I would say for the owner, they should be defining the accountabilities. Bookkeeping is pretty much data entry if your bookkeeper isn't overly knowledgeable, necessarily, but all of the things around accounting you want your accountant to check out the chart of accounts that your bookkeepers filling in the numbers into. So you would rely on them. I don't think a Chart of Accounts is necessarily anything of business owner necessarily needs to know. But the overall responsibility lies with them. And so when I'm working with clients, sometimes I find that because the knowledge may not be there, then there's a little bit of an intimidation to even ask questions. I don't even know where to start when I'm going to talk to my bookkeeper or my accountant. So how could I even tell them what to do when I don't know what they're supposed to do? So I encourage people to be curious, to be open, ask lots of questions, you get answers that help you understand and just recognise that they're there to do their role. They should help inform you about what they're supposed to be doing and what they would expect you to be doing. And if you're not seeing the numbers on at least a monthly basis, you need to speak up and say, you know, I need to see those to be able to make good decisions and run my company. So be curious, be open, don't be shy. A lot of people tend to not want to ask the questions because they feel like they're going to ask them wrong. And that's okay, you're learning. And the only way you can learn more is by finding out what you know and what you don't know. And finding better ways to ask the questions. Josh: Well, you don't know what you don't know until you know, you know. So that's it. I remember back in school, I was sitting in class, long story, but I missed out on a month of schooling. And I came back and everything that we're talking about in maths had changed. And they weren't talking about the gonna just use very simple terms, they weren't talking about plus ones and plus twos that though we're now talking about parabolas and matrices, and I'm going, okay, this this became very different. I don't want to put my hand up and look stupid in front of everyone. So to sit there and feel stupid and not do as well in the class is what I could have. And that's something that just hearing what you said that was very soothing and going, okay, it's okay to there's no stupid questions. It's okay to ask a question. It's okay to advance your knowledge. Don't feel like you're a lesser person by not knowing. It's natural to be very good at some things and via walking the path of learning the others. So, yeah, it's refreshing. And as I said, soothing hearing that and something that people can focus on quite heavily and they get a new idea. You get a new idea and you go, okay, I want to invest my time and energy into this, this is going to be amazing. It's going to be life changing for everyone. And how do you do a SWOT analysis on that new idea, taking into account the numbers and making sure that you're not investing too much? And I guess it comes down to like risks and all sorts, and where your risk profile sits with you, how do you make sure that you're not investing too much in a new idea that isn't proven? If you've already got a business that's up and running? Or you're looking to start a business? Tracey: Well, that's a great question. And certainly, it's easy to get distracted by new ideas that may build on what you've already got, and may actually detract from what you have. And so, I think you want to do a quick analysis in a relatively short amount of time to figure out if it's worth pursuing farther. As you mentioned, there's a lot of elements you are going to look at because you are going to do this SWOT analysis. So maybe there's someone in your company who knows the market really well, they've got to research that. While they're researching what you're going to offer for your product or service. They should be checking into what are the competitors charging for that because that's already Really important data point that you need to know. Then you need to find out what is it going to cost me to deliver this product or service? And then is there other overhead I might need to bring on? Am I going to need more team to do this? Or am I going to need more equipment? Am I going to need other tools to be able to do this? And so, then you can compare what the value is that you're bringing to the market, what the price you think you can sell it for? It's okay to be higher price than your competitors if you're offering more value, there's nothing wrong with that, and you need to be confident enough to charge that price. But when you see what the price is against how much it costs you, is it going to be profitable? Josh: Yes, that's a big thing I see. You'd see it even more. A lot of people have a cheap focus, people feel that their clients are going to be money driven and look at the dollar reduce, as I would call them, rather than focusing on why the competitors charging more. Have they done more research than then potentially you have when you come up with idea. Tracey: Absolutely. And we form views about money when we are little kids. So however we felt in our family, it stays with us. And we can certainly change the way we feel about money. But if you always felt like you needed to kind of ask people or kind of play with people to get money, you're probably going to feel like that when you put your product out in the market, and you may not charge as much as you should. Because if you know you're offering something value, you should be asking for the right price. But making sure that you are going to make money on your products and services, depending what you're selling, you may need to hit a certain volume of it before you become profitable. And that's part of your analysis too. Because if it's going to take you three months, but all of a sudden, if you can hit to that point, all of a sudden then the cash is going to pour in. If you can weather that three month period, and it won't harm your existing business, then that sounds like a good thing. But if you're never going to make money on it, maybe you need to pivot the idea, and there's no shame in rejigging an idea. Maybe turning to a different customer base, maybe adding or modifying the product or service to make it profitable, because you can only cost cut to a certain extent, at the end of the day, it's got to be the sales that actually makes it profitable. Josh: That's a big thing that you've just said. So a couple of things I'd like to touch on there like sales. Sales is its own thing. And that was something I was very scared of when I first started, I'm not a salesperson. sounds gross. I don't want to be a salesperson, I want to be a great business person. And if I have a great product and a great business, then people will work with me. And that statement is true to an extent. Tracey: Once they know about you, they have to know about you in the first place. Josh: That's exactly right. And then you need to have an understanding that if it’s going to be around people to know about you, then there has to be a path that you're following that is on a linear growth path because it's not going to be an exponential growth if you're not going to be marketing and going out there and sort of with the megaphone spruiking the brand and the promise that you have there and your ideals. A big thing that I've seen people sort of discount for things without even really looking at why they're discounting or what the reason is, or the motive is they're just like, I'll give you money off if you work with me. And that can sometimes be the wrong step into the relationship. What other sort of do's and do nots have you seen people focus on? Tracey: I've seen people setting their price based on what they think without doing any research. So you do need to validate it in the market. And as I said, if you are offering something of more value, if you have less clients, but they're paying you more, that's just as effective as a cheaper thing with more clients. It all starts with what does the client need? It has to always be about what do they need. Because if you've got something of value, then they're going to want it. Like you said, you've got to market it. And you've got to speak in a language that resonates with them, not why you think it's great, but how it helps them and solves their problems is really key. And what I find though, is a lot of entrepreneurs, they get so excited about their product or service, but they don't take those moments to look at the cost of delivery, and so they end up losing money on everything that they sell, and then that can impact everything else about the business because then you're tight on cash flow if you're running at a loss. You may have struggles paying your government remittances, you're going to have struggles meeting payroll. As an owner, you're probably not going to get a consistent paycheck if one at all. And then you may be letting down people in your family because you're not able to give them the things that you promised them you were going to do when you started your own business and we're going to make a million dollars. So it all kind of ties together and it leads to lots of stress, lots of anxiety, lots of tension, and then it really just distracts and detracts the owner from doing what they do best, which was why they started the business in the first place. So we don't want money to be an impediment to them achieving their goals. Josh: Well, I think you've touched on a few different things there and that is one of them I find like what do you think when it comes down to people say you've got to add value, you got to add value, and this is a big thing that's turned around a lot. Everyone's like, I add value. 15 years, 20 years ago, when you'd have a product, you'd have a look at a product, you'd add a margin. And then that would be the product. Now people are talking a lot about adding value, which as far as I can understand, my understanding of that is you package multiple products that can sometimes be intangible appear as if there's something that is going to be helping someone out is a value add. I guess now I'm using the term value add, you should never describe something with that word, should you? That's a big no-no. You have all these different items that are intangible bulk items that you can give to lots of people that people see and go, Okay, this is going to be a better reason to work with you. It could be something as simple as KFC have an app and if you've been using it, it gives you a little discount or something like that. Yeah, okay, cool. I've got a that's, I guess, a value add, but it's giving you a discount for using the app multiple times. They're not using the discount just because they've gone, okay, you've become a more loyal customer, he's a reason to continue purchasing the chicken or whatever from the meals from them. So I guess my question is value versus margin, how do you make sure that you determine the appropriate value. And this is something that I think is huge with the Cloud Computing software at the moment. Everyone's moving there, the application that would have charged $100 for up front or $1,000, for up front, into a model where they're charging $10 a month or $100 a month. And so they're seeing you're getting these updates. But you're never ending this suffer. And there's a whole bunch more can control of what you can do with this software. So how do you determine value versus margin? Tracey: I view it from the perspective that you're looking at. So the value has to be perceived by the client. So you can tell someone it's all value added, and it has this, this and this, but if they don't see that, that doesn't hold any value. So especially like what you're talking with the software, like you do have to figure out how much does it cost us to make this in the first place? What were all our sunk costs for R&D? How many times will we have to sell this stuff to break even and then to make money. And at what point does it become feasible? And can we get to that many subscribers, because a business is very valuable from a business standpoint when it has regular recurring revenue. Certainly, it makes it more saleable. It makes it a good acquisition target in the future, if that's something that people are interested in. But I really start with the basics, how much does it cost to make this and something like software, there's probably years of development that have potentially gone into it that gotta be recouped. So you've got to figure out from the numbers, what does that look like? And then it's from the client perspective, what's the value? And that value piece is kind of the profit, I would say that you're building into what you're charging. But making sure if I'm charging $10 a month, how many subscribers Am I going to need to be profitable? And what happens if I don't? Is this still a good endeavor? Then obviously, I would think because everybody's gone this way. They've found a way to monetise it and make it profitable, but the delivery method of how this happens, that's just some of its marketing. Some of its kind of just the packaging the new format for how it gets to the customer versus being perhaps more value, If maybe more convenient. I don't have to now put a CD into my computer to get the program. I'm just going to use my phone or download it from the cloud. Josh: That makes sense. And you bought up a couple of points earlier when we're talking about having this new idea and it does come down for a business owner. So it's not all about you. It's about how does that impact your family? How does it impact your mental health, which is a big thing, making sure that you are staying mentally healthy. When you go on these crazy endeavors and I'm wanting to say comfortably there's been periods of time where I was pulling 100, 120-hour weeks and I did that for about six weeks before I realised that something's going to break. And we had to remove a bunch of clients because of the way we're running the business. It was not going to be able to be something that we didn't see it growing the way that it did. Then I didn't have the time to train anyone else. So I was sitting there in this the golden shackles, as I call them, the jail that I created for myself, and I had to make the decision to cut a whole bunch of clients out, the old 80/20 rule. The clients that were noisier even though profitable, they were noisier clients that we went can’t keep with them. So mental health is a very important part of all this and your debt versus profit can play a big role on that with your family and with your mental health some businesses. You see them all the time, these huge businesses like Uber that sit there running in debt for year on year and Tesla running in debt. The first profit obviously you always want to be trying to run a profitable business but that can sometimes mean that you're running a business that you're not really taking any risks or you have a very low risk profile and that could mean that your growth isn't as quick but it also means your full might not be as quick or am I just talking out my ass? What are you what are your thoughts on having a business that is running profitably or is running with debt? Or when's the right time to consider increasing that overdraft or changing around your position to be pulling $100,000 or a million-dollar equipment loan to buy something that you think is going to work? How do you wage that? Or how do you work that out? How do you make sure you're making the right financial decision? Tracey: So a couple things. First off, it totally starts with a business plan, which includes a very detailed and well thought out forecast. So it's okay if plan is to lose money for three years, and raise enough money initially or have it to fund three years if that's what it's going to take because some ideas are going to take longer, you're going to need the scale and the mass to make it profitable. So start with a well thought out business plan. I know a lot of business owners don't necessarily like to start there because they're enthusiastic and want to just jump into the business. But you need to know what those expectations will be. And then secure enough money, whether it's your own resources, whether you need to go to an investor, banks are kind of challenging for startups without a track record. It's really hard though probably get you to borrow personally. You can put the money that into the business. So start with a plan, know realistically whatever come up with tack on probably at least another six months, eight months because things don't unfold as you expect. So know that things take longer, they cost more. Josh: Absolutely. I have a rule of 10 for myself, whatever I think it is, I times it by 10. Tracey: Yeah, well, if it's been your experience and then do it, it's the way it works for you. Josh: It makes it at least I'm not getting annoyed that it's not being achieved in the right amount of time. Tracey: Yeah. The second thing I would say is absolutely critical as soon as possible to establish credit in the company's name. So even though you may be getting the money right away through personal means, or because you put your personal guarantee, get those credit cards, set up overdrafts, even if they're very small amounts, set up lines with suppliers where you can start building up the credit because as the company grows, you want to be able to grow the company that the credit that the company has. And you can't do that if you go later and try to get a big amount of credit when they don't know you and there's been no track record for the company. So those two things are really key. Then based on your forecast, when are you going to make profit? If you're tracking according to your milestones, so if you thought maybe in a fictional example, maybe it's going to be nine months, we're going to start being profitable. If things are all trending that way, and the profit starts coming in, then you have some decisions to make with the profit. And we're going to take that out, am I going to give it to myself as owner, or am I going to reinvest in the business? Certainly, if you're going to be looking for financing, you've got some more growth plans and growth is super hungry and the fuel that it needs to eat is cash. So for you to grow your business, it requires that reinvestment of money. Bankers want to see you being in money as well. They don't want to be the only one who's injecting into this venture. So you will be profitable, you can then make your investment and it's appropriate to take on debt at the levels that you can pay back. So if you're taking on debt that needs to be repaid over a couple years, lenders are going to be looking for a track record where you showed that you had the capacity, that capability to pay it back. So be thinking about it in those terms. If you aren't going to be taking a higher risk proposition, you probably do need to look for some kind of investor who's willing to take that risk of potential loss. Because banks aren't going to take that risk with you. That's just not what they're set up for. Their shareholders don't tolerate that. That's not their mandate. Josh: I remember 2007, when I started the business, 2011, I went to the bank and said, I said 2007, I started the business as a side hustle, as they call it, a side hustle, side hobby thing. And it was 2010 that I got rid of my, what I'm going to call the buffer income, the income that was solid, repeatable and from another employer. And it was half 2011, started 2012. I went to a bank and said, I'd like to buy a house. I've got this 20% to 25% deposit, so a sizable deposit. And for that stage, a lot of people my age really doing a 5% deposit and things like that. And the bank said, okay, we've got some good news. You can borrow money for house, but only $40,000. And I said, well, what else am I gonna get in Australia for $40,000? It can’t even buy a bedroom. That's nothing. It can’t go any far out. And I already had credit cards and everything set up. But that was a that was kind of a bit of an eye opener for me. And I went okay, I should have probably bought the house before I got rid of the job. When I had some sort of income. Yeah, that was a one of my financial blunders. Oops! But after getting the first one, the second house was easy, which is good, I guess. But I wanted to sort of touch on buffer incomes. So when you're running it in debt versus profit, like you said, you obviously have to have some sort of a rainy day fund sitting there. And if you're doing that, what would you say is a sensible amount to have or get part and part of the same question? If you're starting a new business and you're looking to go out on your own and you think this is gonna be great. I'm going to quit my day job so that I have 40 hours a week to spend towards this business. I found that's a fallacy, probably going to be spending 40 hours additionally to the 40 hours you're spending with someone else. You’re probably gonna be spending 80 hours a week for quite a while to be able to have the wheels start to move. The train takes a long time to gain the energy to get the momentum it requires to move from place A to place B. So what do you think the buffer income should be? And what are the catalysts or the aha moments that you see when you go okay, it's time to get rid of that security net that you have of your employee. Tracey: Yeah, the buffer, that reserve you're going to have whether you're starting up or you're going into kind of an uncertain period, it really depends on what your run rate is. So how much are your expenses every month? And you need to know that number. If you have a big team and you know, you've got to make payroll, you at least want to have three months, maybe six months buffer so that you know you can pay people and keep things going in the organisation. So really depends on the business, some are more intensive in terms of the amount of money you got to pay out every month. If you're doing a lot of stuff on your own, you can get by with less. So building that business plan at the beginning, doing that forecast will quantify that number for you. I think I can totally agree with what you were saying. I mean, I was a banker for a long time. And I used to think I worked a lot. My last job before I left the bank, I was doing 60 to 80 hours a week in the office. And then I thought, oh, I'll just work for myself and I'll have more work-life balance. No, that's not how it works. So you're building, you're building and you've got to learn all these things you don't know how to do. I don't think entrepreneurship is necessarily for everyone. So what you were saying like how you started it on the side and you had your job. I think that's a good way. Number one, you've got to test your idea. Make sure it's something that the market wants, not just something you think is fun, that you want to bring into the world because you got to make sure you can actually make money from your idea. That's the goal. So make sure that your ideas sound. Make sure you actually like being an entrepreneur. So by testing it on the side gives you that, because if you can't sleep at night, because you're worried about your next sale, maybe you do need to have a full time job, because that allows you to sleep at night and have less anxiety. But if the thrill of it and chasing down the sales and all the marketing and all the moving pieces gets you excited, and it's going well, you're going to know where that trigger point is. Keeping in mind, whatever that amount you figured out initially. Do I have that? Do I want to maybe have a little bit of extra because certainly everybody who gets into business sees that things cost more, takes longer. Initial expectations usually aren't enough. So make sure it's for you and then build up the money before you leave that full time job. And just on the point you mentioned about getting the house, certainly, you want to make sure you pay yourself regularly on a salary to some level from your organisation. When you are running your own business, we've even seen it now with government support here in Canada with the pandemic. A lot of entrepreneurs were shut out because they did not pay themselves a salary. So you're having trouble personally, when you go to try to prove your capacity to repay a mortgage to the bank, if you're not getting a steady income, because they don't care about the cash inflow from the business. If it's not documented, and they can't see the history, they're not going to be that likely to give you those personal loans as well. And so you've got to think about the business and the personal picture together. Josh: I learnt that the hard way as I said, it delayed the purchase of the house by a couple of years, and had to be a not a top tier lender, I guess, I don't know, a B-class lender or something like that. And it worked. It was fine. And then a year later, we just refinance. Tracey: But you would pay more, you would have paid more in interest being with the B-lender. Josh: I did. I did. 2% more or so which is quite a sizable amount really. But I thought I'll get gets me in a place and gets me happy and set up and have a bit of solidity. But the income and that the aha moment for me was I looked at what I was earning in my day to day job, and I thought, okay, I'm spending a lot of time on the side hustle and it took two and a half three years before I switched off the day job, but it was when I had them on parity with the money that I was able to draw from the business. It was when I went okay, I'm now comfortably covering my debts, but six months of a buffer and I'm pulling an income that's on parity. It wasn't going to be absolutely gangbusters, walking out being Mr. Money with the cash coming out of my pockets. It was just on parity on one end it's had bigger legs to go further than what I would have in the job that I was in at the time. So that was how I thought would be the best way to go about it. But you bought up the current situation we've got with the pandemic. And sometimes when you forecast things, forecasts go wrong and you have these external events that impact you. There's a big airline in Australia. Ansett Australia was huge. And then some mismanagement led to it disappearing and then short of it, it was purchased by Richard Branson turned into Virgin Australia now and now it's going underneath a similar sort of overhaul, it's gone under administration. And they've obviously got some pretty, pretty smart cookies there that have still fallen by this pandemic. I guess you can't always look out for everything. But there's certain things you can look out for. When forecasts go wrong or when you need to pivot your forecast because of external events, how do you go about doing that? Making sure you're getting the right advice and you're not stressing out and putting your head in the sand like an ostrich as it would be? Tracey: Yeah, absolutely. And so couple things, you don't want to be highly leveraged all the time, because that gives you flexibility to potentially take on more debt in the future if you need to, for some unforeseen situation. Building up your cash reserves, so that you do have something. And then taking a hard look at your business and seeing just what I offer right now is that still going to be viable in the new normal that I think is coming? If it's not take action, maybe you start doing some tests of some new products or service and see how people reacting to it. But don't just wait. If you wait for a long time, you may be then out of business. And in my experience, as a banker, I've seen businesses go under in as quick as 90 days, because they weren't getting the cash flow. They might have been having sales on paper, so great sales, but if nobody pays you, it doesn't really matter you're going to be done for and if you're already maxed out on debt, there's limited room to refinance and the company limited ability to go out and get more debt. So I've actually been talking to some entrepreneurs now saying, if you weren't able to do well, or make money when things were going well, should you really take on more debt right now? Because how are you going to do your business better when we're in a more challenging time? So sometimes you have to ask yourself the hard questions. If you're uncomfortable doing it, maybe you're going to have that talk with your accountant and get them to get back to you. But being an entrepreneur means you do need to ask yourself hard questions so that you can, number one, take care of yourself, because you don't want to be so stressed that you get ill and then have a heart attack or blood pressures through the roof. You want to make sure that you're there and you're continuing on, whether it's this company or it's another company, you can't be so tied to the one organisation or the one product that you lose sight of making plans and doing the right thing in the moment. And certainly this is unprecedented. And nobody could have forecast the wide-reaching effects. But from the crisis in 2008, we know that companies that had less data at that time who had cash reserves, they were able to survive and persist. And then get out of it okay, others folded because they just didn't have any options. Josh: To continue on what you're saying there, take all emotion out of it. It's your business and you've been putting all this stuff into it. You got to look at very analytically, and get all emotion removed. I'd say that'd be fair to say? Tracey: Yeah, absolutely. And it's really hard. I mean, it's your baby, your baby. You created it from nothing, but sometimes you need to say bye to your baby. And if you can't do it, you need to at least have the knowledge of how you feel. And no one go out and talk to people you trust and respect that you feel have good judgment and ask them for their unbiased opinion. Maybe it's in the form of market research, you've got to test some things with your clients, hey, in three months, do you think you'll still be interested in this kind of thing, or you won't have any disposable income to buy it anymore. So get fax, and get other people to help you. The other thing you were talking about mental health with entrepreneurs, it can be very lonely to be running a business on your own as the one who has to make all the decisions. So it's super important to surround yourself with peers, with mentors, with coaches, people who are farther along than you in the journey, people who are in the same place so that you have a support system to get the help when you need it. Because you can't solve every problem alone. Josh: I'm going to say exactly that, eagles fly with eagles and you're the product of the five people that you're the closest with that surround you. So it's a very important to make sure you do that, and that'll allow for stratospheric growth. Well, Tracey, we've covered a lot of ground here on different blunders that new entrepreneurs can make and what to look out for to stay profitable. And I've really enjoyed going through this with you. Is there anything else that you think we should cover off before we get to the end of this episode? Tracey: One thing I want to highlight is that a lot of times when I start working with entrepreneurs, they tell me they don't know anything about money. They don't know anything about their financial statements. And they really don't know about the numbers. And I learned very quickly that that is not true, and they learn that too, because if you've been in business for any length of time, you actually know how to manage cash flow. You may not do it efficiently, eloquently, you may not talk about it the way that I do, you may not be planning for it, but if you've been around for length of time, you're doing it and you should give yourself credit for it. So I'd like to make sure we're building those wins as working together for you. So the name of my company, financial fitness, I really like to come at it from a positive standpoint. If we talk about financial illiteracy or you’re financially illiterate, that's really negative. But when we're talking about fitness, we're starting wherever we are. And we're just going to build on it. And we can learn every day and become stronger and flex our muscles with repeated learning. So anybody who's got a business out there who's listening today, know that you have skills that maybe you're discounting or not giving yourself credit for. The last thing I would say is if anyone's been inspired today, I have a free gift for your audience so they can keep going on their financial fitness journey. So it's a money needing agenda, which you can download at cashcoach.biz, and that will help you get focused on getting started and taking that next step. So you can get your money needing agenda, cashcoach.biz. Josh: Well make sure to check a couple of links there in the description as well as in our blog articles for everyone else to jump on to that fantastic offer. And I've got to say I love the idea of financial fitness, the way that you position yourself as a personal trainer for finance, because it's very clever. It's something that I know myself, you, everyone does this, you are going to lose some weight. And then you go out there and you go, I'm gonna be Arnold Schwarzenegger in six weeks, I'm going to have that six weeks abs or whatever. And it's two weeks and you're like, I can't do this, this is terrible. This isn't me at all. And it's because you have these huge goals, you think this is gonna be great, I'm all fit already. And then it's just about batting small bits off until you realise if you've already been as you sort of said there, if you've already been running a business for a while you already have that financial information that's required. It just you might not be calling it gross, net and profit. And anything else you might be calling it different things and transferring it in different ways and not calling it drawings and whatever else. But it could be and I might not be calling it the right thing. But it's about knowing that you just have to have a change of language and have someone to hold your hand there and over a course of time, get those financial abs. Tracey: Yeah, absolutely. Build your financial acumen and your confidence in yourself. So you do it one day at a time you consult with people who can help you but it's just how what can I learn today that's going to help me run my business better so I can get to the goals I've set. Josh: Cool. Well, everyone jumped on to that office. It's fantastic offer and Tracey, it’s been lovely speaking with you. And if there is anyone out there in podcast land, please jump across to iTunes, leave us a review, give us some love. Give us some feedback and everyone's stay good and stay healthy.

What To Do In a Financial Downturn With Justine Lalla Josh: G’day everyone out there in podcast land! We've got a fantastic guest for you. We've got Justine from JPL FM, which is JPL Financial Management. They do some pretty cool stuff with books around the place here. And we're going to be talking about what to do with financial management in a downturn. So we're all experiencing a bit of stress, regardless of what industry you're in. There's only a few at the moment that are really thriving, and I have strong feelings that they may be seeing the downturn in the future a little bit further on. Justine, tell me what would be the one thing that you need to keep in mind when facing a downturn? Get more tips to overcome financial downturn at dorksdelivered.com Justine: I think you need to keep in mind your cash flow and your budgeting. During a financial downturn, you should always have a budget that's always a good idea and during a financial downturn. You should have some sort of contingency plan or contingency budget. Josh: That's very good advice. I know that we had a bit of a talk offline before we jumped into the episode. Without pointing fingers and saying names, you did say that some people need to have the fingers shaking at them saying what are you doing and get your books in order. That's a huge thing. We've got so many different opportunities are in a fantastic country here, where there's opportunities everywhere. And there's probably stacks of businesses that are not able to get them or they're definitely putting you under the pump because they don't have their bookkeeping in order. Justine: Yes, yes. So due to COVID-19 and all the grants that been offered by the government, the cash flow boost, and Job Keeper, we're finding a lot of small business coming to us trying to get the books in order now because they haven't done so in the past, which is quite surprising. Obviously, in order to manage a business well, you need good information. So you need the records in order. And the only way you can plan for financial downturn or any sort of planning is good information, good bookkeeping, information that you can rely on and make good decisions in the future. Josh: Yep. Well, I think it's all data in, data out. How far behind was the worst? And then how far behind is the average? Justine: I've seen some go as far as a year behind. I know there are more than that behind. Thankfully, they haven’t for me. But yeah, it could go to a year behind. Thankfully, none of our clients are in that situation. They're all up to date. So, everyone was able to benefit from all of the subsidies and grants. Josh: Cool. That's good news. Because Yeah, it's a this is it. There's a new one every week. There's one that just came out the other day for another $10,000 Justine: Yes, the Queensland Government grant. Josh: Yeah, that's right. And far out. I thought the wave was over. I thought everyone had caught the wave or not. Justine: Yeah, it's really good that there's so many out there. Obviously, you need to have everything in order. And you need to know what is out there. So you can benefit from all these things. So it's good to talk to a professional that can advise you what you can actually apply for because you don't want to miss out. Josh: Not at all. Exactly. And we just say the more waves coming in as time goes on. Justine: I would say with those grants, utilise it efficiently, you know, make the most out of it in your business. Josh: So, obviously, talking about financial management a downturn with these grants that come through there, what do you think their mindset should be like? For instance, some people will be like, okay, like, let's just use these grants. And this this will allow us to just ride the wave through and then everything will work but we don't know what's on the other side. Versus other people which will be like reduce everyone's hours, stand people down, remove any excessive expenses or expenses that we can absolutely that are not must have parts that absolutely run the business and then still get the grants so that you can ride the wave a little bit longer, even though it might have crippled your business for a longer period of time. What do you think is the best way to approach that? Justine: Yeah, good question. So in terms of these grants and these cash flow boosts and everything that you can get at the moment, I think that should be tied to your contingency budget or plan. And you should factor that in as to how you're going to boost your cash flow. How are you going to get your business back on track once everything starts opening, and how you can then put your stuff on to increase hours until your business is running back to normal and your sales are hitting the usual numbers that it should be. So those grants and subsidies should be factored into that contingency plan. You shouldn’t just get it and then squandered all in one go. Josh: Okay. That's good advice. I'd say like you said that a lot of it comes down to your team and the management of where your goals are with where you're going. We faced the problem internally, I can't say that we got away scot-free, we've had a downturn. And that's because the businesses we rely upon had a downturn, and sadly, two of them that were running 40, 50 people businesses, one of them the other ones 50, 60 people businesses went down to three and five and then another one that was also quite large went down to nothing. They've gone bankrupt officially now out of business, very happy to say that our team has stuck with us. And we've held together like a tight family. I've had even some of the staff say, look, although I know you're saying we should be at 80% they still have to work the full hundred. One staff member said, Look, what can we do here and he said, happy for you to not pay me for the next two months and we can just work something out after that. And the environment and the way that you bring up your team and you talk to your team will definitely help with the situation. Once you've got the grants, would you be saying hold on to them, hold on to the money or pivot your business or think about that idea or accelerate at some bit? Some people have been spending heaps of money on marketing to use it now to be able to put their business forward. Some people have been pulling back completely and saying, let's just remove every overhead and just sit here until something happens. Justine: Look, it's gonna be a little bit different for every business. And depending on where they are with sales, I know a lot of businesses have started doing a little bit of sales, which is good. A lot of people have this stuff only on job keeper, some of them have staff working a few days a week. So it really all depends on what your expenses are like, and what sort of revenue you are expecting. I think those are the factors that you should look at first before determining what you could potentially do with that extra boost of cash. It's great to be able to use that to increase your cash flow so that when something arises, you are able to pay for that. If a business is going to benefit more from increasing staff hours, like you said marketing that all comes down to the business and what kind of business that is Josh: Like it's just shifting risk really just working out what is the best thing that you can do with the money that's come in. Justine: Yes. And it's really important to utilise those funds efficiently. And during an economic downturn, you want to make sure you're using it in an area where you're going to see some sort of benefits, you know, it's gonna make a difference in your business. Josh: For us internally, we decided you know, everyone has those products and those things, they go, oh, that's nice. And you buy into it, and then God, we don't really need that. And so, we've trimmed the hedge, so to speak, we're now in main machine and although some of those things, that's a really nice report that we're getting once a month, and we went, is it worth $600 a month for that report? No. Get rid of that. Justine: Yeah. I think during this sort of time, you should look at your nice to have things or must have things and wait. Josh: Yes, absolutely and, and start cross checking everything. And this isn't just for business. This is in your own personal life. I looked across the properties that I have, all of the insurances, I looked across the insurances for the cars and made sure that I wasn't paying too much. And just making a few phone calls, I think was an hour total time on the phone. I saved $1,000 a year. And I thought that's pretty good. Justine: Yeah, that’s awesome, that's excellent. Even your electricity bill means companies that call and seek out the best rates. There's so many areas that you can decrease costs, if you spend some time analysing your numbers. Josh: Yeah. And if and as I said, it doesn't take that long to do like a some of the data center and expenses that we had, we rang them up and we went from, for one of them is $600 a month, which dropped down to $400 a month. Another one was 1400 dollars a month that was dropped down to $800 a month. Yeah, I thought, well, this is great. And it doesn't take long. And we've had customers come to us, and ask us and say, hey, look up, we're not doing not doing well, because of this situation, what can we do? And everyone's in the same boat. And we're all here to help, really. That's one of the great things about this, this beautiful country we're in. We're not full of arseholes. There's a few of them. But generally speaking, we're here to help everyone and we want only what's best for everyone. Justine: Yes, definitely the same with us. I mean, we've offered our clients some discounts to get through these tougher months because obviously, the flow on effect to everyone so when we can help with definitely trying to do that. Josh: You're in a fantastic position, I guess in where if they want help with some of these different grants, they get money. If they get money, you can get paid. So everyone wins. If they don't get it, it's kind of a free money you're getting paid for on the results really. You have a bit of a different way of billing people as well, which I very much like. Would you like to tell everyone about that? Justine: Yes. So we tend to charge our clients a fixed weekly or monthly rate, which entails a variety of services that they require for their business. So you can choose whether you want to pay for that weekly or monthly. And with that, there's no additional cause for any phone calls or emails or any questions that you may have. I don't think you generally contact your accountant if they are charging you per minute. We like our clients to, you know, ask questions, know their numbers, learn more, because if they don't learn any more, and ask the right questions, they're not going to do any better. So we want them to succeed, which is why we like them to ask questions. And most of our customers love that model, because they know there's no surprises in the cost, they can budget for it effectively. And there's nothing additional to that. Josh: I love it. And a model that we went to for it for the exact same reason you've just said that actually. So in 2011, we noticed a bit of a problem. So 2007 the business started out. 2010, we’re still charging people per hour. And then we noticed that as we were getting problems fixed faster and faster, and using better technology, we're getting paid less and less, and the business was less profitable, the more experienced the staff were. And I thought this doesn't make any sense. So there's these cowboys out there charging the same price. And in one instance, there's a job we got finished in 45 minutes that had someone else already work on it for 10 hours. And I thought, how didn’t they do this in 10 hours, it was a simple problem. And then I thought, we've got to change the model. It's the best thing we ever did, because it gives us a reliable income. And it makes sure that our customers have a known expense, as you said, and it means that when the receptionist calls up and says, hey, we've got a problem, this isn't happening. It gets looked at with the same level of detail than any of the C level people. Well, before the C level people call up and they don't have time to get that problem fixed with a receptionist even though it might be costing them a couple of hours a day or something because things are loading slowly or things aren't working as efficiently as they could. And that ultimately is costing the business heaps. If you're in this financial downturn, and you're looking at a way to change around how your business is working, this would be a great time to sort of brainstorm around that. You're there as a soundboard for different things like this, is that right? Justine: Yes, yes, definitely. We work on a range of things for our clients. And it all depends on the services you require. Our key focus is, you know, management of your business. So cash flow, budgeting, making sure you have good reports at the end of the month. So wherever they are variances from your actuals to your budget, you know, we sit down with the owners, and we go through, you know, the reasons why this may be occurring. And then we look at ways you know, like you said, where you can call up a few places like your insurance and reduce things. These are areas that we advise our clients on. Josh: There’s something I’d love to see and maybe you guys do this is if you have multiple people that are in the same industry and then you went, hmm why is Dorks Delivered spending, I don't know 30% of their income on marketing where other IT companies are only spending 10%. And why is Doc's delivered revenue X and Y when they've got this many customers? That'd be great. Justine: So we use a benchmarking for our clients. So our budgets are looked at against that benchmark. And then, at the end of every month, when we do your monthly reports, we look at your profit and loss against those benchmarks and try to work out why is there such a variance. So there definitely are benchmarks that you can use and use that for your budgeting so that you know what other businesses in your industry are doing in terms of their percentage for wages against sales, cost of goods, for example. So it's very, very good and efficient to use benchmarks, I think in your business. Josh: I don't know what other people are spending I don't know for 20 percent’s right or 50% is right or whatever else. Justine: Yeah, you need the industry benchmarks. Josh: I know that it's working. Justine: I think you get an idea of what the benchmark is around those spin. Just to give you an idea. Josh: Yeah, that'd be good. You have to send me across something for IT, and we'll see where we're at. So fixed fee for accounting. Did you start the business doing that? Or is that something that came about afterwards? Justine: We started the business doing that, because I know that's a little bit different from what other people are doing. And whenever I have worked before, prior to me joining the company, an accounting firm would have done the work. And when I saw the bills that these companies were receiving from these firms, it was quite shocking. So I thought that I'd like to do something different and my target market is small to medium sized businesses. And I think this is a much more affordable way for them to use our services. And every business needs to have good financial management. And so, this is an area that we love helping them in. And I think the fixed fees works well with small to medium businesses. Josh: I completely agree. If you know that you can ask the question whenever, you don't feel as uncomfortable about asking it. My first accountant, sorry for listening, Mr. First Accountant. I knew when I walked in, the clock was ticking. As soon as I went grab that mentos off his desk and we're talking, the clock is ticking. Justine: Don’t you feel stressed when you know that clock is ticking? Josh: When he's like, Josh, what do you do in your spare time? Justine: Oh, does it matter right now? Josh: I’m like nothing I do Nothing. I do absolutely nothing. I have the most boring life ever. Let's just talk about what I'm here for. Cos he’d be like oh, yeah. So how's the family? I got this new car. And I'm going I don't care so much. It stress me, because then I wasn't asking the right questions. I wasn't saying I should my business structure be like this, I would say, what is the fastest way that I can get away from you and stop talking to you. I didn't build a great relationship. I noticed that when I was talking to customers, and I talked to them and computers load, things load, things take time to download or whatever, and you're talking to them. And you can see them looking at their clock looking at the computer looking at the clock, and I'm going, ah, this isn't good. This isn't making them feel happy. And then that's when I'd say something, look why we're waiting for this. I'm not charging, I feel more comfortable. That's not a very good way to run a business, is it? Changing across to we call them continuity plans, because we want to keep their business continuity. And so a lot of people call a managed IT service plans. We thought what does that even mean? Continuity agreements where you guarantee their uptime, it's simple, you continue, you have a business continuity, and you guarantee that in your plan. The only problem that I found in changing to the model, two problems. The first one, if you ever see any of your clients at a pub, they're going to buy your beer, because you have built that fantastic relationship up. So that's a good problem to have. So I don't see any problem with that at all. The only other thing I would say, and this comes down to again, the position of where I was at in life, and how about outgoing I was at that stage. When things are working, customers would be like, what are we paying you for? And when things are broken, they ask what are we paying you for? And so that came down to making sure that you had the right reporting in place, and you had the right metrics, KPIs to make sure that everything was pulling everything in the same direction. But overall, as long as you've done that, it's a very, very good way to make sure that in a situation like now, if you are running a per hour ad hoc type business, you very well could be getting no hours and that could very well be giving you no money and that's a big problem to be in. Well, I've really enjoyed speaking with you. And is there anything else that you'd like to go through for any of our listeners that are out there to, in regards to JPL financial management? Justine: Oh, well, I think the piece of advice I could give businesses out there is to manage your cash flows, manage your budget, make sure you have numbers in place, you know, plan for this period of downtime. Make sure you know what your numbers are, you know what your expenses are, cut costs where you can. Talk to a professional, get the most out of your government grants and everything that the government's offering at the moment. So utilise that efficiently. And yeah, hopefully we'll all be back in business full swing pretty soon. Josh: I completely agree. And anyone out there that is listening and wants to have more advice, or wants to have Justine go through your numbers in your books, jump across the JPLFM.net or JPL financial management, we'll put a link in here so you can see where to go from there. And yeah, everyone just stay healthy. Stay on top of your books. Don't let things go behind. And I think, pay yourself don't not pay yourself and then not be able to get some of these grants and make sure you're talking to someone that can give you the right advice and set the right wind in your sails to guide you to where you want to be. If you have enjoyed this episode, make sure to jump across to iTunes, leave us some love. Give us some feedback. And yeah, stay healthy.

The Business Data Revolution With Emily Ridley Josh: G’day everyone out there in podcast land. I've got Emily from Emerge Advisory and she's going to be talking today about the data revolution and is your business ready. And it's probably one of the more interesting times that we've been living for anyone that's alive, in the amount of things that have changed, with pandemics, and businesses closing down or accelerating and going all over the place. So I guess, Emily, tell me a bit about what you can do to make sure that your business is ready? Learn more about business data revolution at dorksdelivered.com Emily: Hi, Josh. So it's really all about using the tools that available already and using them to your best advantage. So having the right tech and having the right app stack is absolutely crucial. So it's about finding out how you want to do your business. And there will then be a system or a process or an ease to make that digital and bring it to a wider audience, and using remote circumstances that we've all, you know, enjoyed recently and making that happen, but making that work for you so that you're getting the best out of your business and your best business is going to your clients. Josh: Yeah, that makes sense. So like, I guess, I know myself when we started out in business, we're using QuickBooks, and I'm not going to say that any products better than another, it was an application that I wasn't comfortable using. And I'm in the IT field. I wasn't comfortable using SSL. There's too many bells and whistles and things that I can click in here that are going to do something that they shouldn't. And a lot of the time you have this stuff with it using for years and years and years. And now we're not using QuickBooks, we’re on Zero. But we used to suffer for years and years and you might not be using it properly or to the best of your ability. And I know that a couple of packages that were introduced to would be now 18 months ago, two years ago, Receipt Bank, I thought is an amazing way of speeding up your process for any of your bookkeeping stuff that people should be using if they're not aware of it, and then obviously making sure that you've set up their appropriate rules and reporting so that you have that information coming out of Zero, if that is the product you're using, or whatever the product you’re using. Tell people a bit about Receipt Bank and other tools that you know that might be useful for them to consider if they're not to make sure that they are embracing the data revolution as they should? Emily: Yeah, sure. So Receipt Bank, Hooked Up, Easy Bills. They're all very similar applications. It's a matter of finding the right user interface for you. Zero now owns hooked up. So it's now free in most business subscription. So it's that minute in itself is an amazing way of wanting to adopt a service. And basically what that does is it just takes all the legwork out of doing data entry, particularly for you spend money transactions or your accounts payable. You take a photo or you forward on an email. It goes into the system, the software I use is OCR, it actually reads that receipt. So it understands the day the tax implications, the vendors, and it will then on the first instance, it will ask you where to code that in your chart of accounts integrated with your accounting software. But it's machine learning, and it constantly wants to follow what you do and how you spend your money. So it will learn it. Caltex, for example, is always fuel and it will learn that. Telstra is always telephone and it will learn that. Aegon is always energy bills. And so as you take the photo, that seamless data entry then goes all the way through into your accounting software. You pay your bill. Now if your bank account and if you use an accounting software, my own Zero, QBL now, that's got live data bank feeds, it will just find a match that transaction. So your actual input into our case in that transaction where it needs to go is as in depth as taking a photograph and then pricing okay, at the other end of the software, it's quick, it's efficient, it's easy, and it gives you more time to spend on your business rather than in your business doing all the stuff that, you know, traders hate to do bookkeeping, that's essentially what this is. Josh: It’s digitising their shoebox of receipts that they given at the end of the month. I'm pretty pedantic with the way that I still do stuff. But I'd imagine that you have these half failure receipts in their car inside on their hot dashboard, and they're all stuffed, and it's easy just to jump onto it and take a photo of it. Emily: It really is, as you put in the keys in the ignition of your vehicle, snap that photo and it's as quick as that. And then you can throw that receipt either in gold box or even better, you can throw it in the bin and completely accept digital copies that don't fade and they don't get coffee spilt all over them and they don't get lost. Yeah, it's a really efficient way of having all year, and all your accounts in order, particularly at this time of year when people are getting everything together for the end of tax time. Josh: I completely agree and everyone should be jumping onto that. Emily: Actually, it's free if there's software's built in. There's some amazing services out there. And like I said managing your accounts payable is just one but there's also for managing job management. Again, for traders there's Tradify and service may, which will do your task management, your staff management, your time sheets, and your invoicing all in one place as well. So it means at the end of the day, all your jobs are done, and they're in your accounting software, you don't have to finish your day of work, and then come back and sit down and do your bookkeeping. You can actually sit there in the garden with a beer or watch the footy when it's back on TV. Josh: Perfect. Having that time to yourself should be time yourself and a lot of business owners when they jump in there, they think oh, I'll have to work 40 hours a week I could do this bit I'm going to be earning more money, and then then they realise that they have all list of administration stuff that is zero dollar tasks, they're sitting there doing an entering stuff and it just takes them a hell of a lot more time than what it would have otherwise. So these little hints and tips definitely helped. We've got a lot of clients using another product called sim Pro, which is a fantastic product, not that I'm plugging their brand, but I noticed that when you're going through the different ones, I was like, oh, that's one that we that we use quite a bit. With the data Revolution, the way that data moves between systems has changed a lot over the years. And I've noticed more and more now as people are using Zero, I can set it up so that that invoice automatically sends to Zero when they send it to my email so that way, it can be transcribed without even have to go through services such as hub dock. If you've got somebody sends you an invoice doesn't integrate with Zero directly, you can pretty much do anything with hub dock, even if it's a multi page invoice and whatnot. Is that right? Emily: That is correct. Yeah. So and it's a filing system. So unlike receipt bank, where the invoices come in, they're dealt with and then they go to archives which then becomes its own digital shoe box really, inside of a hub dock, every Telstra invoice will go to the Telstra folder, every origin invoice will go to the origin folder. Both systems have what they call a fetch service now. So if you have an online account for origins, Telstra, and some of the really big suppliers that you use on a regular basis, it will actually go and get those invoices and statements for you. So you don't need to upload them at all. Josh: I'm learning stuff everyone guys, that's awesome. I'm going to be making sure to set that up. Because sometimes, it's just … the time that you spend is taking it from one system to another and it can be quite frustrating. How does that work if your suppliers overseas or you've got a non-GST items, or what would be a good for instance, just a software subscription service for a company server in America, is that something you just set the rule up once? And they have to go through email or is the fetch service purely Australian Base. So how does that work? Emily: So the fetch service was actually started in Canada, hub dock was originally a Canadian company. And so there are a huge number of global enterprises on the firm that range from European base, to Asian base, to Australasian and yeah, and the Americas as well. So it's incredible the amount of scope that you do have, certainly all the big hitters that you'd expect around there the global entities because one it's machine learning and two, actually the OCR, they actually reads the receipt, it picks up whether or not it's GST, or whether it's nil value GST, so if you're in Australia and you've got an invoice that's got VAT on it or New Zealand GST, it will pick that up and bring that in as a nil balance, because it understands the difference between what's required in Australia and essentially what's not a GST code. Josh: That's cool. One of the tricky ones that I always know I end up doing manually is when I get the car. They have to break down this the stamp duties and offices instead of the CTP elements and everything else, does it deal okay with that sort of stuff? Emily: See, if you set the roll up once so that your department of Main Roads comes in and you want to separate that one line item into two line items. So you've got your GST component, your GST free component so that it adds up the amount payable. Once you set that at once then yeah, it will read it at rego but it is difficult for in the first instance because there's always two numbers on it. It's asking you do you want to be six months or 12 months? So generally, it would still flag up and say what exactly what do you want me to do with this but it will try and preempt that as much as possible. So essentially, you're just an answer it whether or not you want to split. So we will split the invoice into two components but because you've set the rules to do that, but it will ask you which figure is the final closing figure, which one's going to match your bank statement, essentially. Josh: Cool. Well, we're talking about integrations. Obviously, that's what we've been touching on a lot. And like the eight year has a whole bunch of different rules and regulations and bits and pieces. And they have built a few really cool integrations with Zero that has been helping out with a lot of like the job keeper stuff with some of their calculators just help make everyone's life a little bit easier. What have you seen that they've been doing lately that have really been helping with some of their integrations to the way that the systems work? Emily: With the ATO? [Yeah] As much of about the ATO on a regular basis. The ATO has done some amazing things, the unimaginable things. And in the last three months, it's system software programs that just did not exist and weren't on anybody's workflow to exist at any time. And now they’re here. So the job keeper lodgement process is about as simple as it can be in order to be effective. Today’s the first of June so we're now able to lodge our may declarations. I've already done 19 today, so I've sent them out, I've got them back signed using electronic signatures. And I've just digitally entered that into the ATO portal. So it's all launched and confirmed. Now my clients can expect to receive their payments in about four or five working days from there. That in itself is a long, long way from where we were just even seven weeks ago when we were trying to work out what the legislation around job keeper was. So the fact that they're they're taken on board advice from accounting software providers such as Zero and it also from you know, the taken advice as well from industry. So I know Matthew Addison, who is the director for the Institute Certified Bookkeepers, for example, the ICB had an awful lot of say, and an awful lot of to kind of relay messages from what it's like to be the end user trying to manage these workflows, trying to manage this legislation, trying to get this data from our clients to the ATO as quickly as possible to get this money move in and be where it needs to be. So yeah, what we considered was a luxury 12 or 13 weeks ago is now going to be, I feel, part of our everyday new normal. This just allows for a huge amount of new data, new business calculations, new information. Every business owner in Australia, I think this becomes the beginning of a new revolution. And like I said, for the new normal, and I think at some point, every business and every industry is going to benefit from it. I think the opposite here are amazing. What we can do in a tiny amount of space and how much data we've got available tools to do that. Josh: You hit the nail on the head there when you're pushed into a spot that you have no other place to go but forward. They've definitely done wonders with the time that they've had. And I think it’s shown a lot of people how they can work remotely and how they can achieve big things. Like I'd love to say that all businesses always keep their books up to date. But I think you would know better than me that that's a big fallacy. Emily: Yeah, it's not realistic at all. But it can be so much easier than some businesses allow themselves to believe. It can be so much by bringing in automation, by bringing in systems and services that help rather than hinder. By taking away a lot of data entry or duplication. A lot of businesses can be more up to date than they realise, and a lot faster. And they can use that information in ways they've never been able to use it before. I think it gives a huge amount of opportunity for now for businesses to explore things that they never thought that they wanted or needed, but what they're going to see is essential in a very short amount of time. Things like budgeting and cash flow forecasting and data management and making those decisions with that it's all possible without too much disruption to your day to day work in life. Josh: I think ultimately the big thing that's going to have changed with this is businesses that might have been getting everything in just by the deadline are now being rewarded. To make sure that as you pointed out on the on the first of each month, while job keeper is available, everything is ready to go reconciled and on point so that they're making better business decisions and with enough repetition over time, that should become conditioned to be ongoing past when the job keeper disappears, hopefully. Is that what you think's going to happen? Or do you think people will start to slip off afterwards? Emily: No, I don't think people will start to slip. I think because having this information in this real time data in this world today is knowledge, and I think knowledge is power, and it gives you the power to manage your business in a in a whole new light and a whole new way. I think that compliance is a sidestep, it's something that is going to be available to you to do much quicker. But for me, using that information to your advantage, not necessarily the ATO advantages you know it's data that's it's your business, it's your livelihood, it's your growth and your development. And you can absolutely do some amazing things if you have that knowledge and you have that power. Josh: We're going to make the right decisions and you're able to see how much am I buying of something? What am I doing with something? How efficient is the team? How efficient is my buying power and make better decisions? Is it a good idea to maybe set up an account I know myself? One of the things that have come to light for us over the last few months, we've had an account with two major IT suppliers in Australia, and I was looking through only because we changed bookkeepers and I was looking through, and I went, we've got a lot of transactions here, that's from the same company. And so we've made the decision to set up accounts with a few different companies. And that will now mean that there's less bookkeeping, less backwards and forwards, faster response times for our customers. But it's only after really having that data to be able to see that and be able to make that decision that will ultimately give a better customer experience for our customers because they're not waiting for credit cards to clear the audit things instead of the way out straight away. And it means less reconciliation, so better experience for bookcases and easier for us to sort of rummage through everything. So it can't be anything bad happening from this change. And it's just about everyone getting ready to do it. For a lot of people in through the state of depression, we've got businesses that we work with, they're at 450% at the moment versus when they went into COVID. Emily: That's an amazing story and quite an extreme perspective. But I do believe that though, I think that from a bookkeeper and accountant perspective, I'd, again, never been busy and never done so many hours on the phones with the ATO, catch up legislation, do the data entry that's needed for all the new compliance around shopkeeper and cash flow and boost and other stimulus packages. But, it's, yeah, so it certainly has given a rise to like a new normal. And what you were saying though about the data that you've got access to so with the date to the transactions that you've been able to see you can actually see there in real time what you're spending with those suppliers, which gives you, you know, power to negotiate terms. It can, you know, a five cent save and goes directly into your back pocket on your bottom line for your profits and that money is much better off in your pocket than in your supplier’s pocket. So it's huge what you can do with a tiny little bit of information and how far that can take you. It's an amazing concept that I hope to be able to offer to an awful lot of customers moving forward, to sit down with them and say, this is the data you have, and these are the opportunities that you have with that- Josh: It’s data in, data out as they say, you can't make a decision if you don't have good data going in. And you do an amazing job at making sure that people are having the best quality data going into they can make the best decisions with their budgeting, forecasting and making sure that they're doing the voodoo that they do well and are able to continue doing that and as you said. I can see some trends, one of the ones that my partner saw was, she has a hair makeup business, was if she was to purchase all the items that she purchased over 12 months, just the core items that she's purchasing quite regularly in one bulk amount and they're all things that don't have a shelf life, she would have been able to have a 15% advantage. I said well that sounds like a good idea. As long as they're not things that are going to sit on the shelf for 10 years, you're never going to use them but without data, you won’t be able to see that, you wouldn't be able to make that decision. So where do you think the data revolution is going? Where do you think businesses are going? We've always had these huge changes over the last three months, and there's going to be more changes. What are the things that businesses should have in place that already exist? And where do you think it's going? It’s the doozy question. Emily: It is, isn't it? I don't know, to be honest, I don't know where this is going. I don't know the end of this is, I cannot know what the end of the internet is, and I don't know, you know what the end of the universe is. I know that the opportunity is immense. And I think that there is a huge amount of opportunity for development, for growth, for profit increase for every industry out there based on the back of this. I think that the digital revolution is absolutely going to change permanently, the way that we work and the way that we interact, but what's going to be more important than any of this is then that human interaction at the end of it. We're going to want to talk and know the people that we're dealing with, rather than just having an ether of mindless data and send out things like you know, like your accountant will send you out your financial statements at the end of the year, which is just pages and pages of numbers. But without having a conversation about what that means and what you can do with that information, it's kind of lost its purpose. So, where do I think this is going, I think this is going to bring those closer together by making us work further apart. I honestly do believe that. But I also think that Australia is going to be a big player in the global economy on the back of this. I think that we've got more power than we realise. We don't really have the internet speeds that we need, but we're getting there slowly. And I just think that we've got more voice that we believe that we have, I think we just need to be a bit more confident, a bit louder about who we are and what we can do with the data that we have. I think we've got some amazing tech out there that might just be a little bit lost because we consider a small Big Island and a small fish in a big world. Josh: I think what you said there encapsulates it perfectly where automation does not mean not personalised, don't keep it robotic, keep the bits automated that you don't like doing and then the bits that you do like doing and making sure that you have that face to face time, you're able to use the data then see what people's numbers are doing. One of the things that we noticed in our business, so we do set price IT for everything and give unlimited support, and guaranteed uptime from that IT support each month. What we noticed when we started putting these in place was customers weren't having things break. So this was sort of what are we paying you for. And so you need to make sure that you're you had that relationship and you were still going and seeing them and you're making decisions with them on where the future of their business was going, and it let you have those better conversations because there wasn't fires that you're putting out. And that has definitely had the people that we're working with we've built better relationships with because they're also not look looking at the clock going, oh, man, you've got a pointing on my clock, anyone who's listening. He didn't, they're not worried about how much they're paying you per hour because they're able to sort of see the value that you're adding to them, and you're actually sitting down and listening. And so definitely, don't keep it robotic, just wish you've automated it, make sure you keep it personalised and keep that relationship because that's ultimately all we’re in business for is to work with people we like working with. Emily: Absolutely. And it's that makes a good business a great business. And also the same way we charge up front fixed fees on everything. We don't have an hourly rate for anything at all. We're very open and honest about what we charge and we base our charges on outcomes. So what is it that the client gets out of it is how we manage our pricing around that. Josh: That’s definitely a really good model. We're nearly at the end of the podcast here. Is there anything else that you'd like to cover off on? Emily: I don't think so. Just recapping what we've said, it's just a really good time as we're, you know, moving through the COVID process, I guess as to as to what the outcome of that is actually going to be and what the new normal, essentially it's going to like at the end of this, I think it's just a really good opportunity to look at systems of businesses or processes and look at the changes that you've already had to endure over the last seven to 12 weeks and see where that can take you in the future, which I think is a really exciting opportunity to do that. Josh: I think we're all walking in this game together and, and looking forward to see we get on the end. If anyone is looking for someone that's going to be able to give them some more advice, definitely reach out to Emily at Emerge Advisory. She's going to help you out and go through any of the details. Make sure you've got that data to make those decisions. If you have enjoyed this episode, jump across to iTunes, leave us some love. Give us some feedback, give us a review and stay healthy and stay good.

How to Restructure Your Business With Tim Wilshire Josh: G’day everyone out there in podcast land. We've got an awesome guest for you, we've got Tim Wilshire here, who is a networking number cruncher who podcasts people's perspectives. We've got him on to talk about how to restructure your business and when the right time is to do that. So Tim, first question, how do you know when to do that? I know you've come across businesses that are started as sole traders and other businesses are looking for asset separation and all sorts of stuff. How do you know when the right time is? Tim: Okay. Thanks very much, Joshua and hello listeners. But as far as restructuring is concerned, obviously, one thing that I've done plenty of over the last 20 years at my business is restructuring our clients from one structure to another. I guess, like a lot of the answers to questions these days, the answer is, it depends. Okay? You're probably hearing that quite a lot, this is the new 2020 thing, it depends. So it depends on what the different situation is. So if they're in the wrong structure to begin with, and it's not expensive to change them into the correct structure, that's usually a good time to restructure. So let's say they're a sole trader, let's say they've been going in business for a very short space of time and income is starting to come in the door, something that may potentially sell one day, then you can no longer be a sole trader anymore. It doesn't make sense to stay being a sole trader because number one, you're not protecting your assets. If you've got assets in your own personal name, all of a sudden those assets are at risk and the more at risk, the more risky behaviour that you're doing, the more at risk those assets are when you're a sole trader, so that's definitely a time to look at structures. If you're not out of the sole trader structure, get out of that particular structure. And there are two alternatives that we sort of look at, whatever the structuring is, do you want to try it as a company or do you want to trade as a trading trust? Or a combination of both types of structure as well. So that's one, I guess, time where it's quite common when it comes to restructuring. Another time might be, okay, I'm in the trading trust at the moment, but I'm basically making too much money and it's no longer viable, unless I've got a company structure. A company structure meaning, I can type my money and I can grow the business. So, a trading trust structure may no longer be applicable to those circumstances because, selling the business because you have less options. If you're in a company structure, you've got more options, easier ways to add and subtract business partners, shareholders, et cetera. If it's a trading trust, usually good for a smaller operation, up to a couple hundred thousand dollars of profit. Once you get beyond that, a company is certainly worth considering. So that's another time to consider, okay, what's it going to cost to restructure from that structure to that? What are all the processes that I need to do? It doesn't make sense to do that. So that's probably the two main ones you're sort of looking at changing structure because of the circumstances, the current structure don't fit what you're currently doing, and your medium to long term objective. Josh: And when you say trading trust, a discretionary trust and trading trust are the same thing? Tim: Yep, yes, exactly. Josh: Cool. So, you then have cascading setups where you have trusts that own companies, which I think you touched on a little bit there. And then you have companies that are sitting by themself and then you have some people that have multiple companies and asset companies, asset protection. Why would you have that? Tim: The larger you get us as an operation, the more it makes sense to. I'm not saying complicate things, but the more it makes sense to just do things that are going to protect yourself in the best way, shape or form. What you do see from time to time, not for every client, obviously, but once the clients get big enough, they might have one entity that's the training entity and then they might have another entity that basically looks after all the assets. Those items also, you might be paying staff. How do you pay staff in the most tax effective manner? And why would you do it, not in the trading company? Separation, if you're big enough, certainly justifiable. You just got everything in one trading company basket and you're growing and growing and growing, to me, you need to review that structure and you need to say, okay, well, what can we do to better utilise what's going on there? So certainly if you've got clients that are big enough that are turning over more than a couple of million dollars a year, really need to review their structures and say, okay, well, are we in the right sort of structure? Is there something going on that we can do a bit more separation? Can we protect our assets better than what they are? The moment it's all in one basket, and that company goes down, then what? What's the plan of attack if that were to happen? If you've got another company over here doing something, important stuff, whatever, you might be able to drop one or the other. So it just gives you a few more options. Yes, it's more of a cost. Yes, it's more of an administration to be able to manage more than one, but at least you're doing things. Separating and separating the risks. Josh: Okay. And you've talked about going forward, bigger, better, or potentially more complication and more administrative overhead. Is there any times that you would be pulling that back in? Going from a company structure and then going back to a sole trader or something like that. Tim: You never go back to a sole trader, unless you're not really running a business anymore. But you may sort of downsize your operations in it, if you've got too many different structures. And I'm thinking of a client right now who had way too many different things going on, different trusts. Once you stop using that particular trust, you can close it down, sort of get rid of it. So obviously if it's not getting used, get rid of it. You should be able to probably get rid of the different things that aren't getting used properly. Obviously if your sales are coming down, you're sort of downsizing the business, getting rid of staff for whatever reason, because you're downsizing the business. And then do you need that if there's no staff? I mean, all of a sudden you don't necessarily need that. Josh: Who opens the conversation to the structure? Is this something that people should be already aware of themself, where they're talking to their accountant about it, or does the accountant say, "Hey, look, you've turned over a million dollars as a sole trader, something's not adding up here. Let's look to restructure this." Or is this something that they sort of need to jump on their own steam? Or maybe they're listening to the podcast to work out the answer. But who should be opening up that conversation? Tim: I think us, as accountants and advisors, should be opening up that conversation with our clients. We've got to be proactive, we've got to see where the opportunities exist for those clients to get things right. And we've got to take advantage of those opportunities. So get the clients to think that they need to take advantage to get those opportunities. Josh: For us, I started off as the transitioning periods, as you've said, is pretty much what we did. So when everyone was 14 and nine months old and they were off getting their McDonald's job, I was getting my tax file number and registering my first ABN number. So as a sole trader, I started off just on 15 and continued through as a sole trader for a few years until I had the trust and then the company trusts and then the company trusts and then another company, to have asset protection. And then another company again, which was around some of the different grants and advantages that you can have that are pushed out to companies that are not trading as a trust. You can optimise your tax with multiple businesses and structures, but what would be the reason you'd want to have more than one company? If not for asset protection or a government grant or something like that. Tim: Why would you have more than one? Obviously, if you've got more than one business operation actually going, you want to separate them in different trading locations. There might be one location here, there might be one location there, it doesn't always make sense to put them in the same envy. That way, if things can be sold separately, you want to be able to treat them separately. Every different division of the business, you probably should have it in its own entity. And you should try to steer away from grouping them together as well. The reason you don't want to group them together is, it's definitely more messy when it comes to returning your tax. Also, if you've tried to group GST, that's messy. And also if you're grouping them, then you're losing out on some benefits sometimes as well. A good example is the government's recent cash flow boost. If you've got just one company, then you're only going to get one lot of cashflow boosts. Whereas if you've got two companies, you're going to get more benefits rather than just one. Josh: Fair enough. And you did touch on something there about if it's being sold. So when it comes down to exit strategies, if people are looking to sell their business, when's the right time to restructure. When is the right time? You don't want it to look like you've cooked the books or changed the books around or done something funky. You want to make sure there's some historical evidence there that the business is profitable, that everything is going as you would expect it to be. When is the right time to restructure if you are looking towards an exit? Tim: You don't necessarily want to restructure until it's no longer useful. So it doesn't make sense to restructure too soon. So make sure you get to what you're trying to do before you make that choice cutting these off. Josh: So, the main reasons you'd restructure is risk mitigation, tax optimization, and to allow for things to be sold off more easily or divided out. Is that right? Tim: Yeah, I guess all the reasons that I've sort of gone through. Growing, make sure you're structuring correctly, protecting your assets. You need to minimise tax, exactly what you said. And when it comes to the next step, you get to another step, keep reviewing. What's the benefit of bringing in another entity? And everything else that we've sort of discussed there as well. Are we running more than one business operation and can we separate them out? I see clients that shove three different car washes into one entity. They're all at different locations, it doesn't make sense. Josh: I'm going to say something that I think a lot of people, maybe even yourself, are going to disagree with. Companies are generally pretty straightforward to set it up. There's not too many things you can stuff up. If there's one company and then there's another company, the company as the Pty LTD, decides the division of shares and the amount of directors, et cetera, et cetera. The actual company itself, is a reasonably straightforward container. Tim: Well, I guess it's very easy to set companies up, yes. Making sure that it's set up right still requires a bit of skill. Who are the shareholders? The shareholders are a very important part of the company and how those shares are owned are very, very important. Putting mum and dad as a shareholder is not always the best way to do it. So is setting up a trust to own the shares, a better option? That's usually what we'd recommend. We'd say, look, you should want more flexibility. It's not owned by you as an individual, it's in the trust. Then we're talking asset protection 101, as far as making sure that things are done right. Josh: When it comes down to a trust though, it seems like there's a bit more of a grey area than a company. It seems that whenever I've gone to a bank or any lending Institute, they hear that you're running under a trust, they seem to think there's more complication. How come trusts inherently appear to be more complicated than a company? Tim: I mean, with trusts, once you sort of whirl into it, it's probably not as common. To some, it may not be as complicated as what you may think. So obviously it's a great structure. We're talking about protecting assets, we're talking about planning the long term beneficiaries, kids, children, that all make sense to find out about what all the particular roles are. You just need to know what those roles actually are in a trust, and a lot of people don't know about that unless they read it. So once there's a bit of understanding, then you say, well, this is not as bad as what we thought. But again, it's complicated because it's obviously different to that of an individual sole trader, different to a partnership, different to a company. So I guess that's the stigma behind it, that it is more complicated. Just requires a bit of understanding in order to make it not feel as complicated as what its outward appearances would suggest. Josh: Were they more open to abuse in the past? Or has that been sort of tightened down a bit? Tim: Self-assessment is obviously huge. So, there's a lot of trust given to people to do the right thing. And when it comes to trust, there's no exception. So just because you set up a trust, doesn't mean you're going to get an audit or anything like that. Obviously, the audits flags are going to arise if things just don't match up or add up when the ATO are looking at the back system. The government from time to time, have said they don't want trusts, but they've never done anything about that. The labour government, before the last election, tried to make some fairly drastic changes. I guess that's where we are with that at the moment. It's not like it hasn't flown under the radar, but they haven't done anything about it. Josh: What would be the advantages to not having the structure, where you have a company and then a trust and instead, you're just running solely as a company? Tim: You're talking about the shareholder situation and also the difference between having a trust as a shareholder and having an individual as a shareholder. So, the biggest issue with having an individual as a shareholder is, company makes money, makes a lot of money, it pays all its tax, there's only one person that can actually end up with that dividend. If they want to declare a dividend or get forced to declare a dividend in some cases, then that goes to one person's particular taxable income. And that could really jump their income quite high, depending on when and how they have to deal with that situation and the profit and all that sort of stuff. Whereas a trust, at least you got more flexibility. You've got the flexibility to look at the rest of the family group. Can we allocate that dividend to somebody who's on a lower tax income? It makes sense. Three or $400 you spend extra to set up a trust. It's worth it because, yes, you might have to do some dividends and you might have to split that and do another tax return but at the end of the day, it will more than pay for itself. Josh: So if I was to be a single bachelor or bachelorette and have no one that I can distribute anything to, have no business partners, I own 100% of the shares, still having it through a discretionary trust, would still put an extra level of protection there. Tim: It does protect the amount of assets that are attributed to yourself because it's a trust that owns the company. That means that, that's not a personal asset that belongs to you. Whereas if you were the only shareholder, whatever the equity in that company, is effectively your asset. If the trust has that there, then if it's not your personal asset, so it usually can be helpful in things like bankruptcy. Josh: Okay, cool. Well, I think anyone out there that's still scratching their head and has a bit of confusion, definitely make sure to contact Tim Wilshire. He'll be able to bring some clarity and hopefully leave you with the aha moments on how things should be set up. If you want more information or want to hear more about what Tim's doing there, jump onto his podcast from the Valley. We're going to chuck some links in there so that you can check out the website, check out his podcasts and find out what you're doing wrong and how to restructure your business. Tim: Appreciate you doing this, Josh. There's something I just wanted to finish off with. In 2020, and as it was in 2014 or 2015, if you're going into business with somebody else, set it up as a company. Yes, the shares held 50/50 by different trusts or what have you, but if you go into business with somebody else, make sure it's a company. It just allows a lot more flexibility, allows a lot more growth. It sort of ticks off all the common goals that two partners going into business should be looking at when they go into business together. Josh: If you were having a Pty or LTD and you had a couple of business owners, is there a restriction or any complication if you had one of those business owners that were not from Australia? Tim: We have clients where company's are wholly owned by overseas companies, it's always possible. What's required is, the operation to be here at the central management. So the central management being in Australia, one of the directors must be an Australian resident. That's the requirement. The shares can be owned 100% by overseas entities, or 50/50 here. Josh: That's good to know. Hopefully anyone out there that is thinking about their structure, has had that aha moment and is thinking a little bit more about it, how to set it up properly and yeah, jump down to you guys to get it all sorted. Tim: Thank you very much. Josh: Cool. Well, anyone out there in podcast land, if you've enjoyed this, make sure to jump across to iTunes, leave us a review, give us some love and stay healthy. Stay good in this COVID climate.

Enhancing Your Business With Madeline Clift Josh: G'day everyone out there in podcast land. We've got a guest here from Level Up Chartered Accountants called Madeline Clift, and she's going to be going through some awesome ways that you can enhance your business methods and processes with the help of technology. So Madeline, a quick question for you. What would you say is the number one thing that businesses can implement to make sure that they are able to enhance their processes? Learn more about enhancing your business at dorksdelivered.com.au Madeline: It's real listening. It's a weird one, but that's probably the best one that you can do, make sure you're listening to your staff and your clients. The first thing we've done was making sure that the business runs smoothly for ourselves internally as a company ourselves, even though we're accountants helping other businesses, is we ask our staff what they want. We make sure that they can do their job to the best of their abilities, and it's really paid off for us, especially during this scary pandemic time. Josh: Yeah, it is definitely a time of unknowing, isn't it? And I think you're on the right page there, where you say invest in your staff is very, very important. We were given two ears and one mouth, so use them in that ratio. Listen twice as hard as you're talking. Madeline: Exactly. Josh: That's very, very good advice. So start by listening and making sure that you've got the processes in place to get rid of the deadwood, I guess, would you say? How would you go about making sure that you do have a team of unicorns? Madeline: Team of unicorns, that's a funny way of putting it. We call them wizards actually, funnily enough. Josh: Oh, wizards. Madeline: Yeah. We'll have to tell them that they were referred to as unicorns. Josh: Yeah. Or ninjas. Sometimes I call them ninjas as well, but yeah. Madeline: That'll work too. Yeah, so our internal wizards, the first thing that they said to us was that they actually love how simple it is to work away from home if they need to. A lot of the guys have kids. This was long before pandemic time, but the guys were like, "Oh, I'm really glad you guys just gave me a laptop that sits on a desk with two monitors, because I can go home and work if I need to, if my kid gets sick for the afternoon," things like that. And because we invested in them right from the get-go, that wasn't an initial cost for us when everyone had to start working from home. Everyone was already ready to go. They took their laptops home and they even stole, basically, half of the monitors that we had floating around the office, so that they were even more set up at home. Everyone's working with two screens. Everyone's super comfortable. And that was just from that simple thing of listening. It's really already paid off for us when it comes to the stressful times. We know our IT provider, again, was really stressed out just trying to provide laptops for the week to get other businesses sorted. Josh: Being ahead of the curve there's really important, and it'll pay off in significant quantities, I think you'll find over next few months and years. Because it means that your commercial overheads from a commercial real estate perspective can be kept a bit lower. Which means that your footprint, that you're putting your carbon footprint, if people are working from home, is lower. Your time wasted between traveling is lower, which means people have time to spend with their family. They're spending less time and money on maintenance for cars. It's by far the most sensible way to go. Josh: And we started the business 13 years ago in mum and dad's garage, where all tech startups start. Went from there to a bricks-and-mortar building a couple of years later and had the staff coming in there. And then, same as you guys, have gone and went, "This is stupid. What am I doing? We're going to other people. We're very, very rarely having anyone come to us." And I thought, if they want to come to us then they're probably close enough to have them come to the house and have a beer on a Friday afternoon anyway. So that's the approach that we went, and I think a lot of businesses are going to be adapting that. Josh: And one of the things that I found, actually, after we started going through the remote workforce, this is probably now 2013 or so, we found it took a little bit of refining and adjustments for people that were used to coming into work. And we put in systems and practices to make sure that we had different KPIs, that we're able to manage around that. What would you say would be a method that you guys are using to be able to monitor and manage your staff to make sure that they're not having a few sneaky looks at Facebook? Or maybe they are. Maybe you've got that written in their agreement. Madeline: Technology-wise, we've actually already got a monitoring system in place. The guys know that they've got ActivTrak on their laptops. So if they're ever doing something they shouldn't be, like installing Bitcoin to try and make money, it flags our IT subsidiaries. There's one method, I suppose. We make that clear so the guys know that they can't be stuffing around. Madeline: Second one, which we're quite lucky for because in our industry, we have to report billable hours. So everyone has to put in a time sheet for what they're working on. It can be done simplistically, like you can say, "All right, for the first three hours this morning, I'm going to be working on this client's data. So I won't be free, don't talk to me." But then we've actually got the time sheet logged in there and saying, "Okay, well, they've actually done all of the work papers. They've done the end of financial year job for the entire client and all the individuals." Things like that. Madeline: Even for our admin staff at the moment, them working remotely, they're doing time sheets per hour. They're much smaller slots, but they're still actually putting in, "Okay, well, I actually spoke to this client for half an hour on the phone." It may or may not be billable, but they've at least put that time sheet in. So at the end of the week or the fortnight in the pay period, the director and myself are able to go through those time sheets and double check, "Okay, well, actually, you've worked a 12-hour day." Funnily enough, I find that more of the staff are spending more time, realising, because they're not doing anything at home, they're actually doing more work, which is really funny. But we're really lucky. Madeline: Yeah. Time sheets and actually the software tracking systems are probably the best bet, I would say, for most business. Josh: Cool. And so I guess we have two different models of clients. The majority of them, we charge a set rate per month where we just give them unlimited support, which works great for the clients. And then we guarantee their uptime to make sure that they're not. If they have downtime, in fact, we pay them. So we don't want them to have downtime. So we make sure they don't have downtime. So we're fighting for them to be up as much as possible and to be as efficient and utilised as possible. So that's the model of payment that we have for our customers. Josh: But for our staff, we have a similar model where we have hours that are measured, and then KPIs, which are normally on the efficiency of the work that was accomplished. Josh: So say if you have a client that's bringing in $2,000 a month, for instance, and that client calls up 10 times and the hourly rate, or the amount of time that client is spent on, if that was say a thousand dollars worth of time, the staff pool bonus is 10% of the difference. So they'd only get 10% of the money remaining. So it's in everyone's interest to make sure then it works, don't go down, and they stay up as much as possible. Josh: Then that's a sort of the big metric that we found because we put in place a program assistant called ObserveIT, which lets you see all the screenshots and keyboard logs and activity and things like that. And then we built a couple of other bits and pieces ourselves so that we can see if the sort of traffic and how utilised each PC is and if one's running slightly slower and all that sort of stuff. But when it came back to it, we just needed to make sure that the staff and the business were steering in the same direction, was the big thing of making sure that the reasons why businesses are working with you are bred into the culture of your business. So then it sounds like you guys are doing pretty well the same thing, which means you're a step ahead of a lot of accounting firms out there. Hats off to you. Madeline: Yeah. I don't like to toot my own horn, but we think we've really taken it to a different approach, I suppose, than a lot of the boutique accounting firms in the past. And then even at the moment, we've found other firms that are roughly the same size as us, the way they approach, I suppose, how they treat their staff, the hierarchy in the office, they're all 50-year-old practices. They've upgraded maybe the technology. They know how to use Xero now, which is great, but all of the rest of their systems and their processes are just stuck in the last century. Josh: We were using QuickBooks. It was about 1,000, $1,500 or whatever it was, back in 2007 to 2013. I hated it. I hated it so much, but it was the only system that our ERP solution integrated into, and smile from ear to ear the moment we moved across to Xero. You guys would use XPM as well, I'd imagine because you're a practice manager? Madeline: Yes, we do. We use both. Then again, a third system, monday.com as well, just for tasks and scheduling. Yeah, that was even simpler to use for our staff. Pretty much all of our systems are cloud-based. We don't want anything not to be on the cloud because we actually feel that that's more secure for us. So there's nothing wasted and paying for installing systems. I think the only thing that we pay for a subscription for is a PDF-editing software system. Josh: That's not too bad. As long as you've got the security behind it. I'm a big advocate for the cloud as long as it's been set up correctly. And that's another thing, a lot of people sort of just hear lots about it on the internet and read about it. And then Yellow Pages, even we're doing big campaigns about it, saying, "Everyone needs to move to the cloud," and I'm like, "Yeah, okay. That's cool." As long as you know your data is secure, encrypted, and isn't going to be attacked. Josh: My goodness, the number of solicitors and accounting firms that we've seen that have vulnerable data that's out there that we've been able to find, show them and they've just gone, "Oh my goodness, how'd you get access to that?" Or, "You shouldn't have access to that." And I'm like, "I know I shouldn't." I said, "And there's other people in there that wouldn't be telling you that they've got access to it." I said, "We're one of the good guys to help you guys out." Madeline: Our biggest expenses as a business actually are the people we employ to do our IT and I'm happy to speak their name, which Connected Platforms, and our actual staff. Those are the biggest costs for us as a business. Staff that we employ and how much we pay our IT company to manage everything that we're doing on the cloud. So those are our two biggest investments that I think are the biggest payoff, really. Josh: Absolutely. That's a differentiator with a lot of businesses. Some businesses look at staff and some of the other required services, such as IT, as a liability and an expense, where really it should be an investment. It should be something that you're sitting there and your Connected Platforms hopefully sits there with you on there, as like a virtual CIO or CTO to talk about how they can leverage new technologies, and what's your exit strategies for the business, and how are you going to be going along with that to make sure that your practices have built up around that? I would completely disagree with what I just said if it was 50 years ago, but nowadays, you can't run a business. It's kind of like saying, you want to run a business without electricity. It's like, yes, it can be done. Is it the most efficient, easiest way to do it? Absolutely not. IT is definitely where people need to be investing their time and money. IT automation and marketing would be our biggest expenses internally. Madeline: I think it will change, depending on industries. For example, we have a lot of clients, where their IT isn't obviously their biggest investment. It might be the equipment that they're using. Because they might be that kind of industry, where they're actually like earth moving or something like that, that's quite a big investment, earthmoving machinery and things like that. Madeline: Then secondary to that. It's always the people that they employ. They need to trust their staff. They're moving those million dollar machines around and things like that. So I think those two are pretty integral, regardless of the industry that you're in. Josh: I agree, obviously you have set up costs and bits and pieces. If you've got, as you said, earthmoving equipment or any sort of industry-specific equipment, it's going to have a big cost. But the good news is, I guess it's also equity sitting there in the business that if shit hit the fan and they had to start getting rid of staff, the equipment they could sell and it's going to give them something back, hopefully, unless it's completely depreciated. What have you guys found that are things that many businesses or accounting businesses can put in place that removes staff overheads and things like that? Madeline: Training in those systems, I think. The biggest problem with accounting, I suppose, is you've got a lot of young people coming out of university who, a hundred times work and study, then you're really trusted and really, really knowledgeable accountants in their forties and fifties. There's a definite gap there where you've got people who are incredibly tech savvy and just want something done and know that they can get it done quickly. And then you've got people who are used to looking at the Tax Agent Master Guide, which is a book bigger than any Harry Potter novel. They're going, "Check this index against this," and they're going, "Well, I could just Google it, mate," where like, what's the term or phrase kind of thing, like, just so we can make sure that we've got the ruling right if we want to make changes. So training and investing in those staff is the biggest thing that's kind of, I suppose, saved us, especially during this pandemic. Madeline: I know that other businesses that we engage personally have just absolutely had to shut down, apart from their few youngest employees who have to run the show at this point because they can work remotely. They figured out how to use the laptop and remote login to the systems. Things like that. Their older employees are just like, "Well, what do I do? I sit at home and do nothing?" It's like, "Well, I can teach you how to, I don't know, use Slack or something like that." Like a direct messaging system, that like, if you're struggling with Facebook Messenger, going to be a problem. Josh: A degree in Google is what I refer to that as. People just need to know how to search for what they need to find. You don't need to know absolutely everything. You just need to know how to use the tools that you've got to be able to find the answers, and the tools can be people or it can be your search engines or documentation systems and the like. Josh: And documenting your processes is great because it allows for you to level up. It lets you level up. You can easily chuck in more accountants and they can read through the on boarding documents. If you have a new business that you're working with, there can be on boarding documents for them as well. And off boarding documents, if you are downsizing or a business is no longer working with you, it makes everything more straightforward. Josh: And the way I would relate it is the biggest business that's operating or one of the biggest businesses is McDonald's and it's run by 14 and nine month year olds. Madeline: Yes, step one, step two, step three, press the button. It's all automated. Yeah. Josh: Exactly. And so getting those processes in place is super important. What do you normally use to create the documentation? Is that something that you're doing with the likes of video recordings or text-based things or both, or situationally, are you putting people into a situation where you can have them learn to become the teacher? Madeline: Yeah, actually funny, you just said that, just last learn to become the teacher. That's probably pretty much the best thing, we want to level up the staff that've spent years in the office because once they can write their own processes and teach someone how to do it, it's... I have two 18 year olds in the administration team, reception and administrative assistant. They're sitting there telling the 40 year olds, "Okay, this is how we're going to use this process." Madeline: It gets rid of that hierarchy as well, because you've got an 18 year old teaching a 35 year old how to use a program, but we're not using kind of like recording processes because everyone's an individual in how they teach. Everyone's, I suppose, an individual on how they learn. So there's no one set way of learning. I think we've discovered that a lot, just through focusing on the individuals in the office. It's one-on-one, 100%, but we document what needs to be done. Madeline: We use another program called MyGlue. So that one's again, referred to from our IT company. They use it for a lot of their internal processes and you can step out what you have to do for on boarding a client, like the step-by-step processes with that. We document the basics, but it's really a one-on-one experience. Yeah. That's why the business has basically quadrupled in size over the last year and a half. Just on that one-on-one mentoring, it's just that keeping to the basics in a PDF document. Josh: Talking about MyGlue, that's a, I think it's a part of another product called IT Glue. Madeline: Yes, it is, sorry, yeah. Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So when you said MyGlue, I'm thinking, I'm pretty sure it's IT Glue. It's a fantastic tool. We have the same family of tools that we use internally, and having that documentation there, as you said, not everyone learns the same way. We've spent a lot of money to have multiple ways for people to learn, videos of onboarding of new staff, as well as then screen captures, as well as then videos that they can watch from a screen recording, as well as in the text document. So you can then have your own internal research to be able to look it up and find out something. Josh: The biggest thing is to start with something. Having something's better than nothing. Having a process there and being able to write yourself out of the business is really important. You don't want to be sitting there working day in, day out, as the business owner. You want to make sure that as long as you're not in a position where you can become redundant, you want to be able to make yourself redundant. Madeline: Exactly. It's funny. Bring it back to you were mentioning the DISC profile before. And a lot of accountants being just one type. We used to do the DISC profile on all new employees coming in, but I no longer bother with that because I want that personality that's able to speak to clients and isn't just really process-based. It's just like, "Well, no, I just follow the process." We go, "Well, that's not being an innovative creative accountant." We don't want you to absolutely defraud the tax office or anything like that. But there is ways that you can be innovative and help the client in that business advisory way as well. So if it leads back into that we don't want to be that typical accounting firm where you're just following a step-by-step process and individualising it to every person and employee, making sure that they fit in. Josh: I think it's important to be personable and not be like what the industry says. Like I'm a, as I said, I started in mom and dad's garage, but that doesn't mean that I'm not the guy that jumps up on stage and talks to everyone about how they can better their business. It's about making sure that you are the thorn in the bush, if everyone else is the bush. So be the one that stands out and be refreshing. Madeline: Yeah. We're definitely not your typical accounting firm. Really accounting is a secondary, I suppose, skill that we want you to have if we're hiring you as an accountant, we actually want you to be able to talk to us and have a meeting with us and want to work for the company because I'll tell you what, the amount of offices or typical, even real estate agents I've worked in too where you walk in and it's sort of funeral tone to it. Because there's no sound. It's just a quiet receptionist sitting there that goes, "Hello. How are you?" And speaks very professionally. Madeline: In our office, when it's open, when there's not a pandemic on, we've actually got a dog. Usually in the office, there's always music playing. People are welcome to come and go as they please, if they've got appointments with work and stuff like that, the office is just where they can come to work. But there's definitely an open-door policy as well. No one has their own office except the director. If they need a private space, we've got those areas. But we're basically a big team where you can yell out across the room and go with someone, so and so, about this, "Who's handling that?" So it's definitely not your typical accounting firm. We don't want that. That's what we're trying to avoid. Josh: Well, it sounds like you're the Google of accounting firms. If anyone out there in podcast land's looking to level up the way that their business is running and make sure that they've got someone there that they can give you advice as much as they can give you without being a financial advisor, I'd definitely suggest checking out Level Up Chartered Accountants. Is there anything else that you'd like to cover off on, Madeline, before we finish the podcast? Madeline: Don't be surprised at how young some of us are. If you are interested in coming into the office and seeing how things go. We do have people that are experts, been in the industry for 20, 30 years. But Drew himself is in his early thirties, me myself only just turned 30, I'm pretty much the captain of the ship. So yeah, we've got a lot of young wizards in there, and that can be scary, I think, for some businesses where they they've known their industry, it's been the same way for 20, 30 years. And we don't disregard that. We know that it's your business kind of thing. We're just going to make sure one part of it runs smoother because we've taped up, we've leveled up so we can hopefully level up at least one part of your business and maybe it'll flow through to the rest. Josh: You heard it from the head wizard's mouth. And I think that's absolutely appropriate because when I started in business, we were dealing with much bigger businesses. When I was in mom and dad's garage 13 years ago, as a... Far out, was I, 19 years old at that stage. I was talking to these businesses and they're looking at me going, "What could you possibly know?" But people just, at the moment, anyone gave you the... Open up their ears, and that's circling back to what you were saying earlier. People need to listen more than they're talking. The moment they were able to listen and they went, "Oh geez, this person knows what they're talking about." Josh: I know myself, I was a few years ago, sent over to Vegas to do a presentation in front of three and a half thousand IT businesses about how we automate some of our internal processes. And I was freaking out because I'm thinking, Oh no, I'm like nearly 30-ish. And these people, when I'm looking in the audience are like you said, 50s, 60s, 70s. And I'm going, they are going to think just I'm a wally. They're probably still talking about punch cards. Anyway, I get up there and I start talking. And first minute, you see people's eyes sort of like not really paying attention. Second minute, everyone's there taking notes and writing down things and you could see their attention. I went, "Awesome." Josh: It just takes a couple of minutes for people to see the change and the benefit that you can have. And it's refreshing, I think, not doing things the same way that people have been doing it for decades. It's good to have some fresh blood in a business, to be able to push that along and have that experience, have some of the nomads in there, the grey-haired nomads, but also have some of the younger whippersnappers that are going to be able to break out, change, a difference. Madeline: Definitely. Yeah. We've found a happy medium, I think. Josh: Sounds good. Sounds exciting. And yeah, if anyone out there does want to have a discussion with Madeline, definitely jump across to levelupca.com.au That's levelupca.com.au, and you can check out what they've got on their page there, and probably even be able to book in a session to jump in there and meet the team and pat their dog. Madeline: Yeah. He's Chewy, he's lovely. Josh: Chewy. Awesome. Well, I've loved having you on the show and look forward to seeing how everything goes after this COVID situation. If anyone has any questions or has any reviews or feedback, make sure to jump across to iTunes and leave us a review, give us some love. Everyone out there, stay healthy and stay good.  

Niching Your Business With Kirsty-Lee Roberts Josh: G’day everyone out there in podcast land. I've got Kirsty-Lee here and she's going to be talking to us about niching and the current position of Australia's financials. So Kirsty-Lee, tell me, what drove you to niche into the trade and construction industry. Learn more about business niching at dorksdelivered.com.au Kirsty-Lee: Hi, so I took on a business coach and it was an online program, and in there they had discussed a lot about how, if your message is targeted towards every business, you'll likely not to be speaking to any of them. They're not really going to go ahead with your services because you're very generic. So I had decided to test out my message being focused towards building and construction, because that's where my background comes from and I'm very passionate about it, and it also means that a lot of my clients are all kind of similar. They're all in the building construction trades, sole trader area. Josh: Cool. We see it all the time. Definitely have the sniper approach, not the shotgun approach. And we hear it spoken about a lot and a lot of us hear, "Oh, we got to do this. We got to do this." And then we don't, or we think we will always try to, and then we just fall back. But one of the big things that I found is when niching, it's not about turning away business, would you agree? You'd still work with other businesses? Kirsty-Lee: I do have quite a lot of clients that are outside building and construction. I just feel like building and construction is, I guess, where I'm meant to be, that's where I have the most knowledge. But I do take on, say, restaurants, mechanics, they're quite similar to building and construction anyway, makeup, artists, things like that. But it's just something that I just feel really passionate about, and I know that those building and construction and trade space businesses really need that help, so if I can provide that specialist help to them, I can help them overcome the problems that I've seen in many businesses that are quite similar. Josh: A lot of businesses, they do the voodoo that they do well, but not everyone's a bookkeeper, not everyone's an accountant, not everyone's an IT person. You can't wear all the hats, so it's good to get to nice and then you know any of the certain products and programs that they might use, like, I'm sure you've come across simPRO and things like that. It's good to know how the data is being looked at and how they would like the reporting done. I find when you're niching, it's about getting your message clear on your website and all your marketing so that the businesses that you're talking to go, "Okay, you are the right person for me." And it makes it very difficult for them to compare apples with apples because there's apples and oranges, there's someone that does everything, which means they probably do nothing well. And there's someone that does something very, very well. Would you say that your experience has been the same? Kirsty-Lee: Yeah, most definitely. So the differences between, say, restaurant to building and construction is restaurants are very hard to cashflow forecast because their sales are the sales that they get on the day. So it's very hard to predict, I guess, what their sales are going to be the next day or in a week's time, in a month's time, whereas building and construction, a lot of the work will tend to go over a longer period of time, smaller operators might have jobs for a day or two. Large operators might have jobs that go for 12 months. So with those larger jobs, you've got your progress claims, you've done your quote, so you kind of know what's involved. You can kind of forecast for the next 6 to 12 months of funding, or not so much what funding, but what monies they're going to have coming in from clients, what expenses they're going to have, because they've quoted all those works. Josh: That makes perfect sense. And people think a lot of the time, when you niche, people think, "Oh, it means you're just good at one thing," but I like to liken it to, I guess, a doctor. You go to see your GP and your GP will talk to you about any of the different elements that you have. But if you went to see a specialist, whether that'd be a dermatologist or a gynecologist or any of the other ologists, if you went and saw one of them, you would know that, they've at least studied the same things that your normal GP has and then they've just specialised further, so they're as good as someone that can manage any and all the books as well as being better in a certain area. Would that be fair to say? Kirsty-Lee: Yes, most definitely. I went into a building and construction business a couple of years ago and they were focusing on manufacturing at the time and they had just started going into installation of a particular product. And I remember I was there for maybe three or four hours, and I had said, "Can I have a look at your copy of your last BAS? I just want to see what you were claiming on your BAS kind of thing." And then the minute I picked it up and I went, "You're not claiming fuel tax credits." And they're like, "Oh, what is that? Are we entitled to that?" And I'm like, "Yeah, you've got machinery on site. You should be able to claim for your fuel tax credits for what you're using the machines for." And that they hadn't been claiming it about, I think it was about two years, the period that they could have claimed for. And that was worth over $40,000. Kirsty-Lee: So if you're going with somebody that is maybe not experienced in the field, you could be missing those little things. It would be quite similar to me going somewhere that makes wine, I would have no idea about wine tax credits, and I wouldn't pretend to know. I can research it and find out the information, that kind of thing, but if I was looking after a wine business, that could be potentially something that I missed. Josh: Yep. That makes perfect sense, and knowing those little niche things can, as you said then, it could be a world of different. 40 grand, that's a lot of money and that's something I think a lot of people should be considering. People build these awesome relationships with businesses, and one of the things that we we strive on is we tell any business that works with us. We say, "Don't just take our word for it. Go and take advice. Go and get an audit or an IT audit or a security audit or take advice from other IT companies, and bring it back to us or sit down with us at the table and we'll talk about what their findings were," because we know a lot about technology, but as you've just pointed out, there could be certain things or certain parts that we go, "Okay, we've missed that because there's some very specific pieces of software that would be great for their industry." And everyone grows by doing that. Josh: And that's something, I guess, is good for any business too, is just to get a second opinion. We ask our clients to do it, and we think everyone should be doing that just to make sure that they can see what they're doing and what they're doing is right. As opposed to continuing to do what they've been doing and not wanting to change. And in changing this company, you're talking about, saved 40 grand. That's a decent whack of money by having someone else's eyes go over their books. Kirsty-Lee: Yeah. Most definitely. It's something that if I come across something in a client's books, I might say to the accountant, "Hey, what do you think of this? Or I'm thinking we do something like this regarding this particular issue. What are your thoughts?" Just to run it past them, because when it comes to bookkeeping, I'm not the only person that has to look at your books. You've got the business owner, but then you've also got the accountant at the end of the financial year. So whatever I do affects both of those people so I need to make sure that both parties are going to be happy with the work that I've done. Josh: Yep. You're kind of the middle man where you need to be able to represent the information, and I'm sure some of the stuff that you get given is chicken scratch and you need to polish it off and make it look amazing. Kirsty-Lee: There's a lot of shoe boxes with receipts that might be faded or barely readable. Josh: Receipt Bank. How cool is that? I'll be the first to say, when I started up my first entity, which was just myself as a sole trader, this is going back 17 years now, I was doing everything myself and keeping care of everything myself and I read multiple books on making sure I was doing everything right with the GST and then I got to 13 years ago where I then set it up with a trust, the company, and I went, "Okay, this is getting way too confusing." But I was too scared to submit it myself because I don't want to stuff up, so I just didn't for two years. End result, I was losing sleep and freaking out. I'm going, "I'm going to have the government knock on my door. They're going to find me. I'm going to be stuffed." I had QuickBooks, but I had done no BAS lodgements and it was shoe box accounting, absolutely. It was terrible. Josh: I went and spoke to a bookkeeper and she said, "Don't worry about it, calm down. It's not that big of a deal. Just go through it and we'll get it sorted." It cost a few hundred dollars. They went through... And again, just the timelines on money positions, this is now 11 years ago. It costs a few hundred dollars. So it'd be a lot more now, but cost a few hundred dollars. They went through and said, okay, "Everything's sweet, it's all been submitted." I went, "Oh my goodness, the stress is gone." And that's what it's about, I guess, removing the business owner from the equations of things that they're not that great at, and putting people like yourself in their shoes, where they're able to use your knowledge and use them to the advantage, get $40,000 worth of savings, and know that they're in safe hands. Kirsty-Lee: And it's even something like the ATO. I still get nervous when I call the ATO and that's what I do on a daily basis. So as a business owner, if you're worried that you haven't got your BASes submitted and you haven't quite found a bookkeeper, accountant yet, give the ATO call and explain your situation, and then more than likely going to give you an extension to be able to get everything organised and bring everything to date. Because they're not out there to get the people that are trying to do the right thing or trying to bring their books up to date. It's those people that are deliberately not submitting it. That's the people that they want to go after and that they want to get. Josh: I'd liken that to back at school. One of the things that I wish that I did, although I do have the facade of someone that's an extrovert now, I can promise you at school I was definitely not. And one of the things I always wish that I did was ask more questions in class instead of sitting there feeling stupid. I never called the ATO in the two years that I hadn't done anything, so I'm like, "I don't want to tell them, because I don't want to get in trouble, because I don't know what I don't know and I don't want them to know that I don't know what I'm doing and then they'll be like, 'Oh, now you're going to be audited. Now you've told us.' And I'm like, 'Oh, so don't tell them.'" And then I was just freaking out more and more. Josh: As I've found out more recently, the ATO are there to help you, as you said, not there to hinder you. They want to work with you, and that was great advice. Kirsty-Lee: It's always one of those things that you get clients coming to you and they're freaking out and they go, "I haven't submitted a BAS in two years," and it's like, "Okay, one step at a time. I'm going to contact the ATO. I'm going to get that extension just so you can sleep a bit easier." And there's a very real possibility that once you submit a BAS, you're probably going to get a fine. So you just prepare them for that and go, "Oh, they'll probably send me a fine." I think the last one I saw was like $440 for not submitting on time. But then I've had a number of clients that we've submitted late or we've had to call up to get an extension for reasons outside their control and they haven't received a fine. So it's just one of those things that I think you've probably got to be a little bit unlucky for the ATO to give you a fine. If it's your first occurrence, they're probably not going to fine you. You're probably not going to have an audit. But that being said, the ATO might one day just start auditing everyone. We have no idea. Josh: Yeah, it's up to them. But I have found overall my dealings have been pretty good. I can't complain too much. They've been very lenient when I had some financial stress due to a breakup. I had expressed my concerns with them. They came to the party quite well. So I was happy with that and that was just one less stress at an already tense time. Getting to the point of you niched your business, and now we've gone into a spot where with the current pandemic and health of Australia and on a larger scale, the world, we've got businesses that are either booming or busting. And one of the patterns that I have seen is that some people have niched, but they've done it in a way that has resulted in them having all of their income gone because all their eggs are in one basket. And there's obviously good ways and bad ways to niche, and you're dealing with a single category of business, and I'd imagine when they go gang busters, you would be riding the wave, and then when they're not, you'd be feeling that pain as well. Have you noticed any of those ups and downs at this stage? Kirsty-Lee: I'm very lucky that the way that I've niched, it's a larger range of businesses. I haven't just niched to one particular area. I'm not a bookkeeper just for shop fitters. My range of niche is quite broad, so I think for somebody that has niched to those shop fitters, it would be very hard because nobody is fitting out shops at the moment. So I think there is a way that you can niche and do it successfully to your target market that isn't going to hurt you in a downtown. Say for me, a downturn would hurt me if building and construction stopped. And we're very lucky at the moment that building and construction is still at this essential service during these times. Josh: Yeah. Niching, I think, is sometimes as an example of saying before, don't be the keeper just for dermatologists. If you're the bookkeeper just for dermatologists, you're going to be in strife for it. If you're the bookkeeper for people that are just doing hair and makeup, can say straightaway, that industry is not going very well at the moment. It's about diversifying, but also niching, making sure that you're not pushing yourself into a box too much, your services and skills going in the right direction, but you're not so directed you're only talking to a single person with a single skill set. You're able to still broadly work with anyone in the construction industry, which is really cool. Kirsty-Lee: And I'm very lucky too, at this time, that I have clients outside building and construction. I have a couple of restaurant clients who I was a bit concerned when the shutdowns happened and a lot of them have been thriving because of the takeaway side of things has gone up, so they're actually turning over more than I did before. Everyone's stuck at home, ordering food out. Josh: What do you think is going to happen to the commercial real estate and businesses? When they've made that decision to pivot from being a sit down restaurant, and I've seen businesses in Tenerife and all around Brisbane that have been higher class, nice restaurants, running an upper class business, and then they've gone to doing takeaway and they've still kept some of that class there and things like what you're saying right now, they're making more money now. It would be very difficult, I think, for them to go, "Okay, economically, it's not as viable to reopen the restaurant." It has a bigger footprint. It has more insurances and they're then bringing in less money from it. Do you think businesses will change their mindsets and that this will be a big turning point or big aha moment for a lot of businesses? Kirsty-Lee: Not necessarily. Say those larger prestige restaurants that people are ordering from, they got their names from being this magnificent restaurant that you go to and you have this wonderful sit down dinner. If they went to just takeaway, they could be compromising the quality of the food, the vibe that you get from going there, so they've losing all that. But I feel like some other businesses that may be office based businesses, they might choose to have more flexible working arrangements going forward because during these times we've proven that it can work. So provided the productivity's there, there should be no reason why businesses aren't able to offer those options. Josh: I completely agree. And over the last 13 years I've grown from a garage business, then we got a storefront and we thought this is great, and then we moved into Brisbane, and we thought this is fantastic. And we did all the, I guess, in quotation marks, "traditional steps" for a business to grow. And then I went, "What am I doing? Why am I driving into business? Why am I getting all the staff to come into the same central spot, deal with traffic, deal with toll roads and parking and all the other stuff that comes with it, to sit down and then connect into other people's systems?" So it was back in 2014 that we started a remote workforce, and that worked out to be good and bad. When 2016 came around that I decided, well I didn't decide, I guess, I found that we had the systems in place to be able to monitor the KPIs and make sure that we're able to see what people were doing, and the KPIs change and adjust over time as well. It's not like they just stay the same. Josh: If you, for instance, were looking at what a mechanic was able to do, and how many cars they're able to service when they're working from a shop, and then you moved into becoming a mobile mechanic, obviously the number's going to be very different. And that's the same transition, when people start working from their homes, it's not going to be as... You're not going to be able to use the same KPIs and the monitoring and things, and you really don't want to micromanage either. You want to make sure everyone's still has that same ability to continue to work. And it's not for everyone. I've had staff that can't work remotely and they've told me, they said, "Look, I know I'm not as productive when I work remotely." Josh: And we sat down and tried to work out how to do that. But I still think any which way we look at it, it took two years for us to find the sweet spot, and we have an environment now where they can work from home or they can work remotely or whatever they want to do. Overall, we'll see massive shifts and the software to support these new ways of business working will evolve and we'll see more abilities for people to have that monitoring, create those KPIs and make sure that all the businesses and strive with a significantly smaller carbon footprint, which can only be a good thing. For you, do you go on site as well as do things remotely? Kirsty-Lee: A lot of my work is done remotely. I do meet with clients to discuss their financials. Usually one or two days a week I'll try and get out there and see as many them as I can. I don't really have any that need me to work in from their offices, which is very lucky because we've put those systems in place so that they can work anywhere, I can work anywhere kind of thing. So I'm very lucky that I do get to work from home, but even back in the day, when I had an office job, I hated going in there because people would be talking and they would distract you, I'm very much like, "Just leave me alone so I can get my job done." Josh: Yep. I'm the same. I find the most productive time slot for me is between 3:30 to nine o'clock in the morning. Kirsty-Lee: 3:30, what are you doing at 3:30? Josh: No rest for the wicked. 3:30 to nine o'clock. Very few businesses are up. Very few people are distracting me and I'm able to just get heaps of work done without phone calls, telemarketers, emails going backwards and forwards, any projects and bits and pieces that need to have any loose ends tied off on, I can get finished. In answer of your question, I've got a YouTube video called The Mirror Mindset, and it's all around the person that you are inside and making sure that when you see that person in the mirror, then they match up, but most of the time they don't. I also go through some the eating and health habits that I changed, and I have very little sleep now compared to what I used to and still seem to work on a high level of efficiency, which I can record through all the different remote monitoring and the KPI tools that we've got implemented. Is there anything else that you'd like to go through that you think would be really great take homes? Kirsty-Lee: Yeah, don't leave your ATO issues. Definitely get them sorted because you will sleep much better once you've got them sorted and you're not worrying about the ATO being on your back. Josh: Cool. I completely agree. And I know the stress and if anyone that is listening out there is looking for a second opinion on their books, it'd be very, very good for you to jump across to kraccounts.com.au, we'll put a link here for you guys to check it out. Speak to Kirsty-Lee and see what she can do for you guys. '. Kirsty-Lee: Thanks for having me. Josh: No worries. I hope you've enjoyed this, and if anyone has any comments or feedback, make sure to jump across to iTunes, leave us some love and give us some feedback and everyone stay out there, stay good, and stay healthy.  

Creating Awesome Teams with Zoe Routh Josh: All right everyone, we've got a fantastic guest. We've got Zoe Routh here who's going to be able to talk to you all about how to better your business. You might be in a position where you're worried about possibly a looming recession, or maybe you're not, maybe you are. Some businesses we have been working with have gone from 30 to 50 employees down to three to five so it's scary times. But Zoe is an expert when it comes to building relationships and making sure the relationships you have with your teams and with yourself are on point. So Zoe, tell me a bit about what you do. Get more tips on how to better your business at dorksdelivered.com.au Zoe: Hey, Josh, welcome. Thank you. Welcome to your show. I'll welcome myself to your show. What I do is the people stuff in leadership. So as you said that story, some people have gone from 50 people down to three. I'm like, wow, that's very scary. So the kind of work I do is to help leaders manage that kind of process for their people. Not necessarily the massive business decisions around cutting expenses and stuff, but how you actually manage the effect on your people, those who stay and those who go. I'm obsessed with helping people enjoy their work and where they do it and who they do it with. And I'm kind of like a navigator, if you like. I believe that leadership is like a wilderness and that you can learn to read the map. So my job is to give you the tools and resources to help you read the people's stuff and the leadership landscape, so you can get to where you want to go faster, easier, and quicker. Josh: Cool. That sounds like all the things people need to know, obviously. The big things I guess in business is that your mindset plays a huge part in it. And as you said, people changing from having a 50 person business to a three person business is huge and that can definitely change around the way the relationships and the ecosystem that you would have created over the organic growth or even accelerated growth of a huge team. So would you say there is something in particular you should focus on more than other elements as a priority? Zoe: In that particular scenario you mean? If you're downsizing? Josh: Yeah. If you're forced to have relationships with four dozen people, not forced to have relationships, that sounds terrible. But you've got relationships with four dozen people and you have to make the decision of who's staying and who's going and making sure you're pulling the ship in the right direction and making sure you're doing the people's stuff right. How can you make sure that you're not stepping over your toes and collapsing into a heap? Zoe: Well, there's lots of, I guess, to do. I mean, first of all, its terrible news for the business owner and for the people. Especially if you didn't have a plan necessarily to do that, like it wasn't part of your strategic intent and circumstances are dictating that you have to let people go because of financial constraints. That's pretty shocking. So I think a lot of, first of all, a lot self management around that and a lot of stress management techniques will have to come into play so that you can show up as a leader, calm, cool, and centred and compassionate. I think that's the really big piece. So no leader wants to tell their staff they don't have a job anymore. Because we feel for the impact on the people that we work with and the knock on effect it'll have on their families. So showing up with care and compassion is the first thing, first of all, for self, and then also for the person that you need to sit down and talk to. I think the next thing to keep in mind is from a mindset point of view, is that as leaders, we always have a responsibility to people, not necessarily for them. Now, this comes with lots of little caveats around it. As employers, obviously we have responsibility to provide a safe workplace, to treat people with respect and consideration, to follow all our duties and responsibilities and legal obligations. And yet we can never know the impact of such an event on somebody and we tend to catastrophise that it'll be the worst thing ever. Whereas it's interesting, is that oftentimes these kinds of events can be a trigger for something amazing for that person. We just don't know. In any case, we are not responsible for how they receive the information and the event and what they do with it. We are responsible for how we deliver the message, how we look after them, how we set them up for success in the longterm. Do we offer them counseling? Do we offer them a platform so they can get their CV up and going? Do we offer them career coaching to help them transition? There's a lot of things that we can do to support and do well by people. I think the other important thing that people often get wrong is that in a crisis, sometimes we just tend to batten down on the information and don't want to let any of the information leak out because we're afraid of large spread panic. This is kind of what happened in China around the coronavirus. Its like, "Don't tell anybody anything, we just got to control this thing." And it was the wrong thing to do because the whole thing morphed anyway. And I think when signs of economic downturn are threatening, I think one of the things that's important to do is communicate, communicate, communicate. And that applies across the board in any context, whether it's crisis or whether it's general business as usual. As leaders, we can never communicate enough. I think people always fill in gaps in information with their own made up stories. And the more we can do to downplay that, I think the better. So that's a hand full of things. So self-manage, show up with compassion, be supportive around your people, and don't take ownership necessarily for how they're going to react because that's the part you definitely don't have control of. Josh: Yeah. And everyone's not on necessarily the same wavelength or underneath the same stresses or seeing the other side. They might just be looking at it as, "Why did you choose to get rid of me instead of someone else?" As opposed to a, "This is the only thing that can be done." There's different businesses and different people that we've had on the show about recession proofing your business, some people are talking about, "There is absolutely no chance of a recession." And then other people are saying, "It is absolutely going to happen, it's just when." And then other people are saying, "We're already in it now." So people that are not affected currently, if you've got a team and you want to make sure that you're doing the right thing by them in staying productive and making sure you're having the right relationships or the hard conversations, what would you say is the best way to change your round the ecosystem that you've got that might've been working and it might've grown too quickly for you to manage that or something has changed? It could be a life circumstance has changed, your relationships. Zoe: I've always been on the edge of leadership in difficult circumstances for a long time. Even when I first started working at summer camp in Canada and I was a summer camp counsellor, I just turned 17 during staff training. So I was young and tasked with a lot of responsibilities. Composure really is all about being fully present in the moment and it's about experiencing emotions without having them drive your reactions. So I liken it to putting your emotions in the passenger seat, so we're reactive when we let our emotions drive the show. So I think composure and that capacity for composure is the ability to have emotions, to experience them and not let them choose the direction in which we go, not choose our reactions. So we may be like the fellow whose whole personal world is crumbling around him. We don't disconnect from that necessarily, we learn how to feel things fully. This isn't an awareness thing, it's a focus thing. So what I mean by feel things fully is that you pay attention to where you're experiencing this drama in your body. And if it's stress, some people experience it differently. It might be in their chest, might be in their throat, might be in their stomach. It could be a sense of volcanic overwhelm and so on. And no matter how much we meditate, how much we do mindfulness, all of us will have an emotional response or reaction to the situations around us. It's how we actually process it and metabolise it. So the first technique is deep self-management. Deep connection to self is like, okay, this group is hitting the twirly thing. Things are not going well. I'm experiencing a rise of stress, breathe through it, connect to the body and just purge your body of the energy of that emotion. So that's the first technique, if you like. And taking a leaf out of Brené Brown's book, it's to acknowledge what's there in the room. When you do that deep self-mastery piece first where you sit and process and breathe and acknowledge, you can show up to your team and say, "I've got some challenging things in my personal world at the moment that are quite distracting. And at the same time, this is what we need to focus on." So I think you can acknowledge the stuff going on, acknowledge that it's having an impact and say, "We're still in charge. We can still move on this thing." So I think that is a way to present chaos to your group while staying centred. If you as a leader are broadcasting stress, anxiety, and chaos, people are going to have that as a major ripple effect and it can really derail the people around you. So deep self-mastery in terms of awareness of your emotions, breathing through it, purging the energy of that emotion and then naming the emotion. Actually, without saying, "I am stressed," you change your language a little bit and say, "I am experiencing stress." It sounds like such an easy tweak and such a simple thing, but it's incredibly powerful. It gives us a little space between the emotion and the nature of our reality so that we can say, "I'm a human being. I'm bigger than my emotions and this is the one I'm experiencing right now. I'm experiencing frustration. Josh: I was going to say everyone has all the emotions at some stage in their life and understanding it, acknowledging it, and then making a decision to take that onboard and then moving away from it, I guess. Zoe: Yeah. I love that. So putting it in the past tense is a nice way of trying to unplug from it, I guess. Josh: Yeah. Zoe: So getting it out by receding to the passenger seat. And something that you can observe. Now it's like, there's this thing that happened and I'm a witness to it, as opposed to a victim of it. Let's not be pollyanna about this, sometimes you do have to make really tough decisions, like cutting your staff by multiples. And I think to help people with that, because they're all going to go into survival mode, is you can bandy them together and start to lead strategy. And before you have to make the final cut, I think you can incorporate people into the decision making process around that. And regardless, sometimes we have these very unplanned crises that are short term and some of them are very big unplanned crises that are longterm and it's possibly the coronavirus is one of them, possibly the recession is one of them. What I encourage my leaders to do is to not just be optimistic saying, "Yeah, it'd be right." Is to do some scenario planning around this and that is okay. Let's look at some of the variables that are at play here. What are some possible drivers that could create different potential worlds? So, okay, let's do one. One scenario is coronavirus takes over the world. Josh: Yeah. Zoe: One extreme. Other one is coronavirus extinguishes quickly. And so you have this pole and then you have another one that might be the recession. So recession accelerates, recession retreats. And so you map out these different worlds based on that. And then you ask yourself, okay, which is the most likely, which are possible, probable? Which ones do we want? But to be realistic, what's likely? What's possible? And then you create action steps you can do right now that can either prevent the fallout of those particular effects or it can mitigate it. So that no matter if scenario coronavirus accelerates and takes over the world and recession accelerates, which is kind of like we would call that world pandemic disaster or something then what are we going to do? Armageddon, thank you. So we have Armageddon. As a team, what are we doing now to look ahead for that? And I know you've written a white paper about some of the things that people can do around that, if Armageddon comes up and that make sure your cash flow is really done, minimise expenses and so on. Those are some examples of some of the things you can do as a team to mitigate this. And then you go, okay, if this, then that. So if we reach this threshold, this is what we're going to do. These are the things we're going to put in play. And then we can also ask the question, what's the opportunity in this? What's likely to happen if businesses shut down. So like in my case, in my business, doing leadership training. So what's the opportunity in that? Well, the opportunity might be we pivot a little bit and we start offering support for how to deal with a crisis, how to do leadership in a crisis, as opposed to the deeper work that we do on how to lead change, how to lead culture and so on. Then we just focus on that one particular piece and we're in service to our clients in that particular mode in that moment. So I think that's how we can be Pollyanna ask in terms of there's a silver lining to any crisis, but we have to be proactive with that as opposed to reactive. It comes back to the emotional self mastery piece too. We don't want to be reactive in our emotions. We don't want to be reactive in our businesses either as much as possible so that we have enough resources and resilience to handle what gets thrown at us, whether it's a fire in the kitchen or a meltdown on your mobile phone or whatever. You have redundancy built into your systems. Josh: Yeah. Couldn't agree more with that. The ability to pivot and look at the opportunity in a crisis before the crisis, or at least build out scenarios is very sensible. We had a look and thought, okay, when the fires were happening. So what can we do to help businesses out? I mean, it's all we've got. A lot of automation with the way that our business is set up and we thought we'd be able to supply a service that other IT companies can't. And it would cost us a 10th of the price. And we thought, well, any business that's affected by the fires, we'll jump in and help them out. And I thought that that's helping them out, pivoting the mindset and it's creating a feel good story as opposed to just a standard boring generic, which no one should ever have marketing. One of the big things that we're huge advocates for is automation in your business to improve productivity. So look at the processes. If there's any element of repetition, I say that twice, if there's any element of repetition, if I say it a third time, I'm going to get it on the recording because I don't want to say it again. And that's how it works. If you have to say it more than twice, or you have to do it more than twice, there should be a standard operating procedure. There should be something there so that your staff and the team are following it in the way that we want you to have that process works and, or it's automated with software. Having productive teams means that the quality of the work that your team is doing is much more beneficial to the business and that in turn I found means that there is a downturn. All the grunt work that can be automated, has been automated. And you've just got a very, very lean machine with the employees that would be very, very difficult to get rid of because they're all core parts of the business. How can you make sure that they are happy and willing to embrace change and go in that direction? Zoe: I love this question because it's the big juicy one. And it's a lot of what my clients are struggling with. Because they know that they have to make these big changes to respond to all these massive environmental factors and systems factors and global factors that are creating a demand for a new direction. And I think a couple of things we need to keep in mind is that uncertainty is one of the things that puts people into unproductive defensive survival modes. And so anything we can do when we're leading change to mitigate uncertainty is really, really important. So even if you don't know what the future is going to be, you tell them what you do know. You explain it over and over again with the communicate approach. So uncertainty is a big thing to mitigate. Sense of belonging is another piece to ensure to help people feel like they are safe. So we're tribal animals and our contemporary tribe is the organisations in which we work. And so anything that you can do to maintain the sense of belonging. So the tribal rituals, which also helps reinforce a sense of certainty. The things that you do on a regular basis that identify the sense of tribe is really important. Other factors to look out for if you're leading change is make sure that you are aware if the change is being imposed on them. Because again, that will put them into unhelpful survival threat and you need to communicate as much as possible the rationale behind the decision. Incorporate them into the decision as much as possible. I think when it comes to leading productive teams, whether it's through a change process or not, there's five things that you need to really take care of as fundamentals. One is purpose and having a clear line of sight to the purpose of your particular role and the organization's role and contribution to the world is really important because that will help guide you through whatever structural assistance change you want to introduce. It's like, this is what we're here to do in the world. This is why it's meaningful to all of us. And unless you have that resonating, it doesn't matter. People are going to get disconnect from whatever message you tell them. And the other framing part of this. So there's five parts. There's a front wheel and the back wheel. The front wheel is purpose, the back wheel is results and being really super clear on the results that you and your team are producing in the business. So what are the things that are going to happen for your clients and your customers and the business as a whole once you do the magic process of your work and being really clear about that and measuring those, because those are your key outcomes and that's how you track whether or not you're being successful. So those are the two, front wheel and back wheel. The gear is in the middle. There's three of them and you alluded to one of them. And it's part of the big gear in the middle. It's structure. So when you have really solid structures, including cleaning up redundancies and processes like that, including who reports to whom, which helps downplay some of the tension you might have around fairness and ego and all that kind of stuff, how decisions are made. Clarity on feedback and how you can raise issues. All those kinds of structural things are really important gear in the middle of your productive bicycle. Another gear is skills. Do you and your team have the skills to have difficult conversations? Can you give each other robust feedback in a way that's supportive collaborative, where the relationship is never in question but the ideas can be challenged and the two are separate. And in fact, when you do challenge ideas or situations that you know that the relationship is never threatened. In fact, they can strengthen. So the skills and communication and interaction are really, really critical. And then the fifth piece, which is the third cog is understanding and valuing and leveraging the strengths of a team member. So if somebody is really good at data analysis and process, put them on the job related to the change. If someone's really good at communication and enthusiasm, put them on the job of communicating what you're coming up with. If someone's really good at risk mitigation, put them on the job so that you don't have to rely on yourself to do the whole thing but you leverage those pieces of the puzzle. So that's the overarching strategy I would use to make sure that your team is humming and thriving, whether it's going through a change process or not. Josh: Once you've got a humming thriving team, I guess one of the key metrics that you to be able to do is, which you brought up there was making sure that you know what their core skills are, and I guess where their interests lie. And would you do that through profiling Myers-Briggs type settings to better understand the best way to communicate a certain problem to them or a certain situation to them? Or what would you- Zoe: I love that you've raised this because there's any number of instruments that you can use, profiling instruments that help unpack different patterns of interaction in humans. And I use a number of them. DiSC is a really easy one. So that looks at behaviour preferences, how people like to operate at work. And it's simple to understand, simple to explain and easy to put people through that profile. And you can see what the strengths and challenges are of the team and it highlights culture as well. So that's one. Any of those resources are really useful and there's an important quote by a gentleman whose name I forget, and he said, "All models are useful, some are flawed." Josh: Yeah. Zoe: That means no model is perfect. Any map that you use to map the territory of humans is going to be helpful. And we've just got to remember that none of it is didactic exact representation of the human beings in flesh and blood in front of you. We are all very complex. And yet some of those map reading tools help us make sense of each other and helped us to see patterns of interaction that can help unplug some of the people's stuff, tensions that happen when you bring humans together and they get a little bit messy. For example, this week, I'm doing a work with a group of eight professionals and they're all quite strong personalities, and they've got a lot of tension in their team. And I know one of the key things that they've got going on apart from having different strengths is that they don't have their structures in place for their team. So we're going to do some of that middle gears of the bicycle work with them. We're going to look at the structure of their team. We're going to refer to their strengths and look at what's happening there and where the conflicts are happening and then we're going to do some work on skills. How do we actually raise issues with each other without feeling like we're stabbing each other in the eye? I think it's really important for teams to help understand each other a little bit more. Josh: From my understanding, you're shooting up to Brisbane very shortly, and you're doing a bit of a tour around with some of the stuff that you're doing. Zoe: Yeah. So I'll be in Brisbane. I'm talking on the future of leadership and I'm looking to launch my amplifiers program in Brisbane. So I'm looking to build a cohort of leaders from across sectors who are interested in the changing world and how we need to respond differently as leaders to manage things differently. So we can't continue to operate the way we have been doing as leaders if we're going to contend with all this crazy complexity. So yeah, that's what I'm heading up to Brisbane for. And I'm working on my fourth book as well. So that's kind of a big project over the next couple of months. So yeah, those are the main things I'm looking forward to meeting you in person in Brizzy. Josh: Yeah. I'm very excited. What's your book about? Zoe: Yeah. Kind of dropped that as little seed, didn't I? My fourth book is about people's stuff; you, them, us. An advanced handbook for the tough stuff of leadership. So that's my current subtitle I'm working with, but yeah, it's about people's stuff and it's about how we engage with each other and how we see each other and ourselves and the world in order to deal with the complexity that we're finding ourselves in. So yeah, it's a bit of a fun, little book that's on its way. So I send out the first chapter this week to my editor. So yeah, a bit of activity now behind the scenes getting that stuff done. Josh: Oh, I know. When writing a white paper and then finding references to it, it's nothing like writing a book and then the love and enjoyment you get for reading a book after you've written one is completely different, isn't it? Zoe: Yeah. You know what, I have not read any of my books once they come out in book. Like, I'm done. So much work has gone into that. I don't sit down and read it. I might pull out a few pieces, but I'm like, "I don't want to sit down and read it from beginning to end." I don't know if other authors are the same, but I definitely couldn't sit down and read it. Josh: Do you have any other questions you'd like to ask me before we jump off? Zoe: Yeah, sure. Since you threw the tables back over to me. Josh: Let's do it. Zoe: What are you most excited about? Josh: I'll do a plug here. As per the book “Composure”, I was looking and thinking, what is my 10 year plan and what would be the word that would encompass that for me? And that would be completion. And it's not that I don't complete things, it's that I manage to do a lot of things all at once. And instead of having 100 things completed 1% a week, I'd like to complete 100% of things every two weeks. My personal life, I would like to have less of those interruptions that are completely out of my control. Did I answer your question? Zoe: Yeah, mate, it does. And I recommend if you haven't read it already, Cal Newport's book Deep Work. Josh: Okay. I have not. So Deep Work, I have to pick it up. Zoe: Yeah. It's all about rigorous focus on the things that matter. Josh: Cool. Well, I've written a page of 680 different things that I know need to be done in the business and I've prioritised the list of prioritise those items. They create money. They save time. They save money. Then any of them that have a higher value then man, I think, okay, these are now in the ... they've made the touch list and then I prioritise those into categories of who can fix them, who can't. So I've probably spent about three and a half years writing a list. It wasn't that long, but it was definitely more time than, I guess, what normal people would put into a list that I know exactly the direction in that regard, but I'd definitely be interested. Zoe: Yeah, it's a good one. You'll enjoy it. Josh: Cool. Well, anyone that would love to hear more from Zoe go to Zoerouth.com and you can probably check in an inquiry there, say, hey, check out some of the cool stuff. Grab a couple of books. There are very good reads and very light reads I found. It wasn't one of these books that was difficult to turn the page. I'm not just saying it because she's listening. It was quite good and relaxing. There's something that I was getting a bit out of. It had the emotional ups and downs which I wasn't expecting. It was good. I thank you for coming on the show. Anyone that would love to leave any feedback, jump across to iTunes, leave us a review, give us some love. Zoe: Hey, thanks Josh. It was a real pleasure. And I mean that genuinely. Josh: Thank you very much. I'll talk to you soon. Stay good.

Amazing Marketing Automation with Avon Collis Josh: Everyone out there in podcast world, we've got a fantastic guest for you today. A lot of you've heard me talk about automation and how great that is for your business. What a lot of you don't know is how to implement that or what that can actually do for your business. I talk about it and I definitely get everyone else to go out there and do some research on it. I've got Relevate here and one of their main, main guys here, which is Avon. And Avon goes through all of your emailing processes from start to finish, any of your online campaigns and helps you set it up in a completely automated way. So, Avon, what would be the number one thing that someone should be looking for when automating their online email campaigns? Get more tips on marketing automation at dorksdelivered.com.au Avon: Keep it human. I think everyone goes automation, it's a bot, it's something that's going to do this wonderful thing for me, but at the end of the day, you're basically just trying to... You're dodging work yourself, talking to all of your customers and having the system do the same. So if you can have it do the same now, one mistake a lot of people make is they try to make a bot sound like a human, when everybody knows it's a bot. So part of keeping it human, is acknowledge it's a bot, make it kind of quirky and funny, but it's still a bot. And then in your marketing communications, just realise that they're going to know, they're going to be able to figure out that this is automated or it's not correct. And keeping it human means to me, not trying to talk or sound like a human, but just trying to understand the human process that they go through. So you might change the... Like if someone gets to two emails that are irrelevant to them, they'll often lose focus or change their mind about you. If you can have a number of... The messaging evolves intelligently with where the customer is at, then that's a very clever way to go. Josh: Cool. I agree completely. You should never automate the human elements. Automation should be around making sure that you've got a process that works. So the process that works, in my example, would be when the Model-T Ford was developed, that had huge amounts of automation although it had a huge amount of people still doing bits and pieces, it meant that there was a process to go from start to finish to make a car. And that start to finish process had a document that was around it. The same as McDonald's has a document that follows the process, although they might have a machine that automatically flips a hamburger patty over and tells you when the chips are ready, so you don't have to stand there with a timer yourself. It still means that there's an automated process, but they've got the people there to make sure the processes don't break. And that can be that it's the people that are reaching out to make sure that when you're at a certain stage in the funnel or a certain trigger has happened, bring people into the equation. Would that be a fair way of understanding? Avon: Yeah, but I would also say it goes the other way too. Like the process is there to make sure the human doesn't break. Josh: Yeah. No. Avon: I'm sure you've had staff where you go, all right, this is the job, you do steps one, two, three, four, five, six, and seven. And then they forget to do step three, or they can't be bothered, or something goes wrong. So automation helps to increase the success percentage of all the little things that go on in the business that make up the end result. The other thing too is once you've mapped that process out, you've basically got a fixed target that you can make changes to. So if you need to speed it up, slow it down, you've got a baseline from which to modify, add processes in, remove steps if they're no good and you can pull stats and data, where ordinarily, you kind of had to go on gut feel if you were doing it yourself. Josh: Yeah. So once you've got those processes and steps in place, if it's not working, the beautiful thing is you can then critique it, massage it and allow for to work and refine it and split test it and do all sorts of cool stuff, yeah? Avon: Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah. One of the big misconceptions around automation is that they think automation is always the system will do everything. Well, generally not, sometimes the system will get everything ready for the human to take over at the right point. And you might, say for example, with an email sequence, you'll know that you might get a harder close rate when emails are six days apart, instead of seven days apart. Being able to make that small change and have that data and do those split tests can have a massive impact on the way that the human actually feels on the other end of that. So at seven days they might generally feel that you're not following up fast enough and maybe at five days, they go now you're in my face too much, but at six days, it's just right. Josh: Yeah. The sweet spot. Avon: Yeah. The sweet spot. And you've just got to figure that out over time with testing. Josh: And when you go through email marketing campaigns and setting this stuff up, there's a lot of different tools out there and there's some that masquerade around as something that they're not and I've tried my fair share of ones that do not do what they say they're meant to do. You open up the box and it's just a bunch of parts, not anything that's going to be to help you build something. It's kind of like a broken Ikea cabinet or something like that. So when I've spoken to people about email marketing in the past, they've gone, "Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I've got MailChimp." Now, what would you say to someone that has that sort of attitude? Avon: So the definition of a campaign is a series of processes that have actions that lead towards an ultimate end goal. Now, in MailChimp a campaign is a single email. So, by definition it doesn't do what it should do in terms of having a campaign with an end result. And the end result might be someone walking in the door view of your business, making a purchase, making an inquiry of some kind. So, you can't expect to throw a newsletter with a whole bunch of stuff at someone and then have them go fall over themselves and go, "Oh my God, I have to buy." Josh: Yeah. You have to build a relationship first. Avon: And you're talking about platforms that say I do this or that, I've been really frustrated with GetResponse. Now, some people say, "Oh, I want to just get the cheap software because it doesn't cost me much." Well, actually it ends up costing them more in development time for me to build out all of the stuff, because in MailChimp you haven't really gotten much in the way of automation. In GetResponse we have to build the email somewhere else, then go back to where the automation is and then link it up manually. So ideally like I prefer to work in platforms where you can go step, by step, by step, drill down into what the email is, go to the next step, drill down to what that is, go to the next step and you can see the whole picture. So I understand what was going on a [inaudible] life cycle story for that one customer and this is that campaign thing coming. I had to print out every email, put them up on the wall and basically make a- Josh: Make a flow chart. Avon: Yeah. Like a flow chart, like a Beautiful Mind all around the [inaudible] room, just so that I can understand the journey the customer's going to go on, because the customer understands the journey they are on and if it's a crap one, they won't buy. Josh: Well, Beautiful Mind, one of my favourite movies. Perfect. Anyway. Yeah. And you don't want to have to go to this trouble to be able to build something out there and being cheap is expensive. A lot of the time you think about what it is that you're doing. If you're trying to bring more leads in, and if that's for the B2B space, that could be a changing, putting an extra $10,000 a month into your pocket or more, probably more. When you're looking at like the B2C space, that could be a revenue of a product that it is sold in quantity and bringing in a significant amount. But either way, you've got either very, very high quality leads that you're wanting to make sure, there's few of them, but you want to make sure they have a great experience or significant amounts of lower value leads that are going to be experiencing the journey and overall, it could be summing up to an amount of money comparable. So you want to make sure that the journey is right in critiqued and has been refined and thought out. And it's also a tool that you're not jumping between, I've read and [inaudible] from this one, but I've read stories about people moving from say, MailChimp and it sounds like we're picking on MailChimp today, but moving from MailChimp to ActiveCampaign, or moving from ActiveCampaign to Ontraport, or whatever the case is and when they've done the move, their send quality scores go down a whole bunch of other issues occur because of the different mail servers that are then sending it out to you. They need to build up your rapport with the mail servers and, I guess, what I'm saying is it would be sensible to go for a tool that's going to work with where you want to be, rather than where you're at now. Would that be fair to say? Avon: I think that's a really good way of putting it, I might actually steal that. Josh: Everyone, it's on a recording. Avon: Yeah. Look, I think that really sums it up quite well. A lot of people sort of, they do that I want the cheap thing right now, but then the migration costs can be massive. Josh: Ah, huge. Avon: Definitely lose data in that, like all of the connections, the lead store value, there's stuff that just does not export. And then the other problem is once you do move everything over or even if you don't move everything over, you start bringing up things like Zapier and like a Lead Page thing or you bring together 10 tools to do one job, where there's another product that does it all in one. And you're trying to duct tape all these things together, links get broken, data gets lost. I heard of a guy who had a subscription product that wasn't linked up and it wasn't operating properly and he lost a million dollars in revenue. Josh: Yeah. No, that's not nothing, that's a being cheap is expensive, getting back to that isn't it. Far out. Avon: Very, very much. So, yeah. The two things you said is being cheap is expensive and buy for where you want to be, not where you're at. That's probably two nuggets of gold that anyone could pick up and should absolutely hold close and use that when they're making a decision about the platforms they're going to buy. Josh: Yeah. And I guess for the majority of it, now I'm just using a blanket statement here, we're not talking generally that big of a sway between the product costs. Avon: You spend more on yourself, as a business owner you should at least value your time at 200 bucks an hour. Josh: Yes. Exactly. Avon: And if you're not charging that out, you need to value it at that. And the other part is that when you spend three hours working around something with a $20 piece of software, the trade off is software was 20 bucks, that three hours cost you $600 in productivity. You opening the business, finding new employees, finding new clients, all that sourcing. Josh: You're exactly right. So we invested heavily 2009 in our first, it's actually, I lie, 2007, I went we need a CRM system. And so being the dork that I am, I thought let's just build it from scratch. I want something that's going to do exactly what I want it to do. And so in 2007, I built from scratch this beautiful system, worked on mobile phones, worked on the back end, it was a Symbian operating system, worked on a web browsers. And it allowed for any of the techs that were working with us to be able to book their time in and then it would look at the kilometres that they drove to wherever the client was from their, at that stage, home address. So it then meant that it would work out their kilometres per hour, how much it was charging, it was doing all their log books. It was doing everything for them. It was a brilliant piece of kit. And I built this and it worked great, but the problem was, it got to 2010 and it'd been working really, really well. But the amount of time that I was spending on maintaining this as new APIs came out from Google and everything else, it was more of an overhead. Now, if I sold that on to 10 other tech companies, I'd be probably not sitting here talking to you right now, I'd be doing something completely different. But it would have been a tool that we were selling instead of the service of IT. So the decision was to get rid of this tool, buy into a tool that's going to work for our business. Now, the one that we bought into cost us $870 a month. That is more expensive than most of the CRM tools that are out and about there. And I can say it was the single best decision that I ever made. You have a look at $870 a month. Let's make it round numbers, at a grand. We'll call it a grand a month, $12,000 a year. Find an employee that works 24 hours a day for you, seven days a week for $12,000, that doesn't get pregnant, doesn't get sick, doesn't go on holidays, doesn't ask for pay rises. It does all this cool stuff and keeps all of your customers happy. You're not going to find it. And I justified it to myself that way and I have had not looked back. Avon: I tried to justify it another way, because a lot of the times people just get caught up in the fact that it's software. And they're like, "Why should I pay for it? It's a thing." Think about it this way, a book keeper, so for me I don't mind doing some of the books, but there's sure as hell someone else that's better at it, that does it in half the time. And they might charge me 50 bucks an hour, but they'll do in two hours what takes me five or six. Just because they are good at it. And if you can apply that theory across over to the software, then that helps people to equate it in their mind a little bit more. And you hit the nail on the head. Yeah, 800 bucks is a lot, but you it doesn't get sick, doesn't get pregnant, doesn't whatever, it doesn't forget tasks and having your existing staff spend 50% less time doing the admin on a job, just the admin time alone of those staff could be a $1,000 a month, $2,000 a month. Think about how much [inaudible] these people. Josh: Exactly. Avon: People are highly expensive, in Australia, in 2020. Josh: Yeah. I agree completely, meat and seats costs stacks. Avon: Meat and seats, I like it. Josh: Yeah. So it costs stacks of money and you want to have them as efficient, as optimised as possible. Avon: Yeah, so this is probably a bit of win, but it is bloody hard to be a business owner or an employer of people in this day and age. Such a litigious environment, if you don't have a 1,000 processes written out, documented out today, then you can be hung, drawn and quartered and next thing you know, you lose your house. So people often don't want to hire or they don't want to have these industrial disputes. So, software again, the last few times I've thought about hiring someone I've just bought a new piece of software. Josh: When was the last time the rate to super went up for software? It's just makes sense. Software, especially if you engage someone, I guess, without tooting our own horns, like yourself or like us, that can look laterally at a problem and look at a way that this could be achieved differently. I had someone that was there editing and doing everything they could possibly do with podcasts for us and they were spending 30 to 40 hours a week doing that. And that was when we're doing three to five podcasts a week, so a fair amount of time. I went through a process of automation, so having an audio engineering background sort of had a couple of really cool bits and pieces that we could do to auto level out and do all sorts of other bits. Short of it is, we brought that down to six hours. So if you're able to use automation, now we still have six hours of people time. But at six hours of time they're doing, it's not the repetitious stuff that is mundane and doesn't add value to their life or to your business. The automation took a month of my time and I think, well, a month of my time, that's a lot of time, but it's only four weeks and I did that 18 months ago. So it's not that much time relative to how much has been saved, even when you look at what your time's worth per hour and that's what you need to gauge. If you could do it in a month. Awesome. If you can't engage someone's services that can and get and get things sorted in a way that works for your business and save you guys time. Removes liabilities. And when I say it, I don't mean firing people, but I do mean if someone up and left, where would that leave your business? So just removing liabilities. Avon: People don't like boring, repetitive tasks, that's the thing that people hate. So if you get rid of that, if you automate it, then you free people up for the more high level tasks and then their jobs become more fulfilled, they enjoy what they do, they feel as though they've got some personal growth and they want to continue working for you in a positive way. Maybe designing a new product or coming up with a new idea, all sorts of things. Josh: Yep. Well, for anyone that is listening here, if you jump across to Relevate, I'm going to put a link here, is there any certain page they should maybe jump onto so that you can- Avon: It's actually under development at the moment. So why don't you jump onto my personal page, avoncollis.com. Then you'll at least find a little bit about me. Relevate, when it's back up and running, it will be relevate.com.au. Josh: Cool. No worries. Well, I love having you on the show and if anyone has any feedback, make sure to jump across to iTunes, leave us a review, give us some love and stay good. Talk to you soon.  

Forecasting Your Business Numbers with Leschen Smaller Josh: Good day everyone out there in Podcast Land. We've got Leschen here from Element Business and Accounting Solutions and she's going to be going through talking about some things that are on everyone's mind, which is forecasting with your numbers. What are you doing in your business? How come so many businesses have collapsed? Where have they gone? Why didn't they save for a rainy day? Learn more about your business numbers at dorksdelivered.com.au Josh: So I guess, I want to ask you a quick question and that is, what would you say is the benchmark number? How do you work out how much is the right number? Or how do you work out your financial projections and budgeting? And I know I've asked you a mouth, which you can answer in an elevator pitch, but tell me a bit about the voodoo that you do and how you can help. Leschen: Well thanks for that, firstly. We operate on a 13-week cash flow and getting those projections for when your cash is coming in and when your cash is going out, it's certainly really important and it's been highlighted through this whole COVID crisis thing. So normally businesses might save a little bit for a rainy day. I think we were talking about that before. You might have six months' worth of working capital to see you through, but this crisis came out of nowhere and I think people have forgotten what it's like and they have forgotten that cash is king. So they need to go back to the planning. And the easiest way to get your breakeven is just to average your monthly expenses for the year and that should give you your average balance that you should have per month. |And you might have three months capital up your sleeve or six months. Six months is actually a luxury, most people can cope with three. Josh: So, that would be a little bit industry-specific depending on what you're doing. Our listeners can be anyone from doing yard maintenance stuff to hairdressers and people running a multimillion-dollar fortune 500 company. So what would you say is a benchmark if you don't know what your expenses are? What should you save to start up a business to be able to make sure that you're not going to collapse, I guess or what would you use as your safety net if you can't have that safety net? So to speak. Leschen: People say that expenses are unknown but they're not. You know if you're a gardener, you're going to need fuel. You know how much it is going to be to repair your mower, your car, buy a trailer. And so, you need to have at least half that amount up your sleeve for if something goes wrong. But having said that, if you've got people that are just going into a business and they're starting up a business tomorrow, they're not going to have given that any thought whatsoever. Which is fine when they're on their own but as soon as they get employees, whole different ball game. Leschen: And then I think you've just got to be a lot more conscious about the money you're spending. And so using this 13-week cash flow, you know what customers you have, you project when they're going to pay you. You know what expenses you have and you put those into your spreadsheet and what it enables you to do is, say you had to pay... Say you had a repair and maintenance that you needed to do but wasn't essential. You can move that out a week on a week that you're not going to get too much income because maybe it was a public holiday or there's a public holiday in there and you couldn't work or you were ill or something has happened that has not allowed you to work for a certain period. You just move your expenses out and you can... It's a really robust tool to help you manage your cash flow. Josh: Okay. And so with the 13-week cash flow, I guess you keep saying the 13 weeks, I'm going to ask you a few more questions about that, but is that something you should be considering personally as well as in business? Because obviously you've got your personal expenses, you got your business expenses and if you're the owner, they very much overlap a lot of the time. Leschen: I would prefer you keep them separate but 100%. I mean, if you're a sole trader maybe, keep them together, but if you've got a company or something, then definitely keep them separate. Josh: Yeah. I was just thinking if there's a person listening to that isn't in business, this still really, really relevant for them because they could still be put out of a job, they could still be put out on the streets and they still have, depending on the stage of business, in baby formula or golf clubs to be buying. Leschen: Both, yeah. Oh God! Yes. Josh: I guess, you need to make sure that you're forecasting and doing those things where you can and have that cash available to you. That's from a personal sense. And then getting into a business, if you're running a business where most of our listeners are, you want to make sure that you have 13 weeks. So how did you get to 13 weeks? Where did the magic number come from? Why not 12? Why not... I don't know if you remember Something About Mary thing where he said, "Seven-minute abs." Leschen: No. Josh: It's like, "You can't do your abs in seven minutes!" Leschen: Because four's too short, eights kind of in the middle. So 13 weeks kind of encapsulated... Who likes 12? I mean 12 beautiful number, I have to say as an accountant but then 13 is odd, so 13 just works. Josh: It makes sense, I guess. The average amount of wakes in three months I guess would be probably- Leschen: I was going to say it's probably about 13, yes. Josh: Yeah. Leschen: You would be surprised at what... We use it in our business. Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Leschen: And we might shift around payments if we think, for some reason, that... So, for now, clients are paying slowly, right? But we still have wages to pay, we've still got rent. So if we have a discretionary spend we will move it from one week to the next. Josh: Yep. Leschen: Based on what we know, where our income is, or what week our income is going to land or cash our cash is going to land in our bank. Josh: Okay. That's actually brings up a very good point. So when you're starting up a business, and obviously depending on the scale and the size of your business, some people, they're net terms are nearly instant, they can sell a pizza and they're being paid in 15 minutes, but then depending on the level of business you're in, like for us, we have net terms that vary from anything from 15 to 45 day. Some people have, I think things are even higher than that. If you're in business and you want to make sure you have that cash flow, what is everyone else doing out there? What are the net terms and how much does that affect the bottom line? Leschen: It's so important because there are some things that you can't do much about because there's legislation around it, but again, I'll use us as an example, I'm quite transparent about what we do. So, we normally, for a client, we'll do your compliance work and then we give you a big bill, not that big, but we give you a bill at the end of the day for having done it.  Josh: Acceptable bill. Leschen: Yeah, correct. Of course. Josh: Yeah. Leschen: But then we're going, "Why are we doing that?" We would hate it if we went to you say, Josh, and went, "Can you provide us a service and then at the end of the year, give us a bill?" That would be a big bill. Right? Josh: Yeah. Leschen: But you might change it to monthly and that's what we're thinking about. So it's smaller chunks. People can absorb the cost a little bit better. People know what's coming up, they know when it's coming up, and people can then plan their cash flow a lot better. So people can do the same in their business if they've got something that they can start billing over a year or three months or six months, they should think about that. Because also then, for you, you've got a regular cash flow coming in. Josh: Oh, I think it's a fantastic idea. That's a big model that we're a huge fan of. So about 10 years ago we changed from being a per hour model to a per month model. And we give unlimited support for everything that we do and we're always available on the phone to talk to anyone and it's so much easier because you remove that resistance. Before you'd go into a business, you'd tell them what you're charging per hour and they'll talk really, really quickly. And I know I'm guilty of it. I'll go to my accountant and he'll be like, "Oh, so how's the family?" And I'm like, "Crap, am I on the time or not?" I don't know- Leschen: "Don't ask me about my family now!" Josh: Exactly. Ask me later when I know I'm not on the clock. And you start freaking out and we saw that that gave a lack of quality service because we'd go in and the receptionist would say, "I've got this problem." And the business owner said, "Not important." And I'm like, "Well that's not very cool." And so, charging a set price per month gave everyone that same thing, and I'm not going to say that this happens, but depending on your industry, when you have the likes of gyms that have popped up, these 24-hour gyms that are not doing much at the moment, but that you have this card sitting in your wallet. Isn't it weird how you don't lose weight with the card sitting in your wallet but the money still comes out? Leschen: I have a gym that I donate to. Josh: Yeah, exactly. You help fund their loans. Leschen: It's a great model that they have. Josh: Yep and so that's where I'm like, "Okay." So I don't know what you guys charge, but let's say it's $2,000 to do a returns for a Pty LTD something once a year or something like that. Leschen: Yeah. Josh: I'm just saying a ballpark number, but if it was two grand, that gives people the opportunity to go, "Ooh, shit, two grand, that's a lot of money. Maybe I should look around for next year." Where if you divide that by 12, all of a sudden, even if it was $200 plus the overheads of the additional bookkeeping and administration, and you go, "Okay, $200 a month. $50 a week, it's just coming out..." I know it's there. I know I can call you anytime. I know this is going to be done. I don't have this big expense and it's a much easier model and it's easier for everyone. Josh: But people... I'm going to use one of those terms like they do on the news when you say, "They said this is going to come." When they don't actually have any references. I mean I'm going to do one of those. I'm going to just say people freak out when they get their rates notice or their insurances too or whatever their case is in business and you go, "Oh crap. Here's an eight grand invoice that I wasn't anticipating at all." But if you're able to amortise that into smaller chunks, you're able to see the outgoings more easily, predict for that and forecast for that, for a lot of people that don't really use many forecasting applications and things like that. Leschen: It’s simple. Josh: Yeah, exactly. What do you suggest if you are new to the game and you're wanting to get a bit of an idea of, "What are I expenses next month?" Did you have any tools that you could suggest that you could do that in a live way? Leschen: Well, we use Zero a lot, but accountants love Excel, and I'm going to sound like such an accountant now, but Excel works wonders. Why make it complicated? You should know when your next bill is coming in. You should know when your rates bills are coming in. When you'd go into business, that does need to be a little bit of ownership about what you're doing. So yeah, if you're new in business, you're going to sign up for insurance. So you will know what that bill is and so you just put it into your little Excel worksheet and in the week that it's due and just have your weeks across the top and you just work it out like that. Josh: Yeah and that's easy enough. And most people don't, and I'm going to say the thing that all accounts hate, I love Excel, but if you don't have Excel, anyone out there listening in Podcast Land, use Google Sheets. It's the poo version of Excel. It's free. It's not as good. Leschen: I was going to say the same thing. Isn't it? Josh: Yeah, oh, it's okay when it gets down to.. For most uses it's going to be the same. Just when it gets down to some of the more complicated things that you're doing between them. Leschen: It's not complicated at all. Josh: Exactly, somebody can sit down there with a beer, hypothetically, and then go through and do that so that's really good advice. And when, I guess, looking to find out all your numbers and going through all your numbers, we've got a bookkeeper, we've got an account, and then I'm the business owner and a lot of people have that same sort of Three Stooges or Three Musketeers depending on how you feel about it. Where do you say is the best way to understand the cut-over between accountant, bookkeeper and business owner when it comes to responsibilities to create these documents, to know when things are happening? I'm not going to pick on any industry in particular, but some businesses sort of go, "Oh, no mate. I just do what I do and put everything in the Share Box and it just bloody gets sorted out from there. It doesn't, hey?" And then there's other people that have their finger on the pulse and I would be more closely aligned with that, myself. But I don't know if I'm... I don't want to think that I'm stepping on my bookkeeper's toes and they go, "What are you doing?" Or if the book is just meant to be there for reconciliation. So where do you say the cut-over really sits nicely to just know where your responsibilities lay as a business owner when it comes to things like this? Leschen: So if we start with a book, it's like a... What's the analogy with the cookie? Or making a sausage. The bookkeeper starts at the beginning, they input the data into your software package, say it's Zero or MYOB or QuickBooks, whatever it is, and then your accountant reads it and checks, is how I would probably put it because if I had to input anything into Zero, I would probably break it, but I could probably get my way around it, sort off, but I would not be anywhere near as efficient as a bookkeeper. Josh: Cool. So from an accountant's perspective, you're into the P and L's. Leschen: Yeah. I want to tell you how you're going, why is your marketing so high this month when you only budgeted X or why is your rent percentage of income so high? Those are the conversations that I want to have with you. I want help you interpret your numbers so that you can go away and go, "Right, okay, this is what I need to do." We're going on our plan traject trajectory or we need to change. Josh: Obviously, in the analogy of making the sausage, if the meat is rancid or the bookkeeper's not doing the job that you thought they were meant to be doing or something's wrong, let's say I just walked off the street and I was decided, "Let's start a business." Can you tell that the bookkeeper's been doing something a bit wrong? They've been claiming GST free expenses instead of other things where they shouldn't have been. They haven't got the appropriate tracking codes and things like that. Or can you go, "Maybe I should tell the business owner, this doesn't look a hundred percent kosher."? Or how deep do you get into it? Leschen: Yes, it depends how much you want us involved in your business. So we prepare a lot for clients. So it's at that time we review all the data and we go, "Well, this has got GST on and it shouldn't." Or, "Hang on a second, this insurance has GST on the full amount but it shouldn't. So can you give us the invoice?" That sort of thing. So we can certainly run a preliminary eye over what's in your books but it's not going to pick up everything but it will certainly pick up the majority of things. So we can definitely help from that perspective. Leschen: And then from a bookkeeper's perspective, it depends. We would always go back to the owner going, "Oh my God we had to reconcile your bank account. Why is it not reconciled? The bookkeeper should do that every time they come to your place." Or we would go, "Well no, we had to do 50,000 adjustments to your file." But it's just a two-way communication because we do like to work with the bookkeepers as well. And the good bookkeepers, we have a really open dialogue with so that they can ask us questions. Because the last thing you want is the bookkeeper and the accountant at odds with one another. Josh: Butting heads, yeah. Leschen: All three of us... Yeah. Because they get very protective of their work or the accountant gets very protective and it's not a good relationship. So you need the owner, the accountant, and the bookkeeper all to be on the same page, it just works so much better that way. Josh: I can say, comfortably, you're 100% correct. When I started the business in 2007 I read four or five books on bookkeeping and accounting and thought, "I can do this." Leschen: Oh my God. Were you having- Josh: Easy. Leschen: ...trouble sleeping? Josh: Ah, so 2007, start of the business, 2009 I went, "I am freaking out. What have I done? This is terrible!" And I got a bookkeeper and I'm like, "I need you to help me. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't want the government to come and hurt me. I haven't submitted anything two years." And they said, "Look, don't freak out. It's all right. You're not the only person that's ever done this." I'm like, "Yeah but I don't even want to be any of the people that have done this." I don't want to be in the naughty chair. What am I doing? Anyway... Leschen: Just fix it! Josh: Exactly. So she went through it all, got it all sorted and at that stage we were using QuickBooks, got it all sorted and, oh my goodness, the weight off my chest, that was fantastic. That's something that I said, I went, "Okay, I shouldn't have been freaking out about this." The good news is though I read enough into it to understand enough about the numbers and so I definitely think everyone should... As you said, the business owner needs to take some responsibility when it comes to knowing what expenses are coming up and being aware of that. And I 100% agree because being able to do this, I was able to more easily diagnose and understand things when I was going in for an expense or going in for a loan or something like that. I understood where and how that would work and how you could better map out the chart of accounts or general ledgers. And that was great. Josh: And that, for me, definitely made the line of a bookkeeper versus a business owner a bit fuzzy because I'm like, "I don't want to step on their toes. How much am I meant to know and do?" But at the same time I think more knowledge can only be a good thing, but just know that there's other people that do what they do professionally and better, so I don't necessarily jump in. I wouldn't be expecting business owners to go and do security assessments on their companies. Leschen: Well, I was just going to say, my philosophy is you go and do what you're good at. Josh: Yeah. Leschen: I will help you interpret your numbers until you understand them, because I do like to get to a stage where you do understand them but I'll help you interpret them. I'll help you along the way, but you go and build your business and build what you're good at or do what you're good at because I wouldn't have a clue about IT. So it's just having those people... I think we're in a world where no one is an... You can't be a generalist. You can't build your business and be good at IT, your accounts, your... What else do you need? Legal. You can't be good at all of that and you don't have time to do that. Josh: It already bothers many business owners, including myself. You're kind of still expect it to be the salesperson, the marketer, and whatever the thing is that you're good at and it's still like, "Aw man, I had to learn to become..." It sounds like I'm extroverted at the moment, I assure you, I love a quality month alone with a book. Leschen: Sure. Josh: I realised in business, if you're not the person able to talk, your messaged doesn't go anywhere. You can have the cure to cancer but if it's sitting on your shelf and you don't have a voice to tell anyone about it, you shouldn't even have it. Leschen: No. If it's sitting on your shelf and you're at home trying to do your bookkeeping, instead of getting the word out there, or you're struggling with your bookkeeping and it's taking you a week to do instead of two hours, like a good bookkeeper or something like that. What a waste of time. What a waste of opportunity. Josh: Absolutely. And we've only got time once, don't we? So you don't want to be- Leschen: That's right. Josh: Spending your time doing crap. Leschen: It's the one thing you can't get back. Josh: Exactly right. So there's books out there that I have read and I'm sure other people who've read like The Barefoot Investor and stuff. Leschen: Oh yeah, I haven't read that one, but yeah. Josh: What would you say, if people are looking towards forecasting or people are looking towards some sort of material to not necessarily tell them, "This is how to do something." But just tell them how to make sure they're doing the right thing? Forecasting's awesome, the split of expenses can sometimes... My family are either teachers, business owners or engineers, all of them, my grandparents, everyone. That's the trifecta that we've got there. And dad was an engineer. So doing all of their operations and bits and pieces. Leschen: Oh, bite your tongue! Josh: This isn't just for that business it's for other businesses that he's worked with previously, but how much people generally spend on marketing, generally spend on the people in the trenches to get the work done. And I've always had a lot of trouble with that because I've sort of thought, "Well, if you want to get your message out there, your brand out there, you need to be spending money on marketing. "As much as when I first started my business, I thought like a lot of people, people will come. Rome wasn't built in a day but you build it and they will come and it wasn't the case. And that's when I learned to start talking more. Do you like review if you see some weird patterns, if you went, "Oh, that's weird that they're spending 60% of their revenue on marketing and 20% on business meetings and only 20% on staffing. That's a bit of an odd mix." Leschen: We'd certainly be having a conversation at that point in time. But it also depends on where a business's at. And so, part of our job is to, I guess, listen and we might have these set things in our head and go, "Yeah, wow, 60% on marketing. That's really high." But there might be a very valid explanation for that. So we'll play devil's advocate and make sure that strategy, I guess, is robust and that the business owner has thought through all the pros and cons. And if it's good, it's good. And if they go, "Ah, yeah, I could probably get an employee that would do..." It's all those types of conversations. So all in all, we just strike up a conversation around it. Everyone's got a filter through which they make decisions, whether there's $0 in the bank account or a million dollars in the bank account will affect how you make your decisions. So we're just trying to make sure that all decisions are made at an even keel. Josh: What was it that I saw? It was a presentation that I saw in the past and they said, "The decisions and the ways that your mind works when you're backed into a corner will be incredibly different to the ways that would work when you're thinking clearly." Leschen: Never a truer word has been said. Josh: Yeah. Leschen: I agree. Josh: So I would say every business has gone through some hairy bits. And if you haven't, you're going to, it's just inevitable. You're not taking enough risks. Yeah, that's cool. So if you are looking to make sure that you're keeping your cash flow in the right spot, what are some of the things, I guess, you can do in regards to say commercial property you might be leasing and things like that? Leschen: So right now,in this specific time, if you're starting to worry about cash, you should be speaking to your landlord. Josh: Just for everyone listening it's at the COVID time we're talking. People listen in five years time, it's the COVID time we're talking right now. Leschen: 2020 it'll go down in history. Josh: Yep. Leschen: Yeah. In this COVID time, because there's specific legislation now for it, you should be speaking to your landlords and see if you can get some relief around your rent. You should be speaking to your banks, see if you can defer payment. And at the moment they're not obviously I'm saying you can go payment free, but they're just tacking it onto the end of your loan. But it gives you a little bit more financial certainty now, just do it because your stress levels are going to sky rocket and you're not going to be able to think clearly unless you relieve some of your cash issues. And if you can, go for Jobkeeper if you haven't already. Josh: Yeah, jump into it. They've extended that haven't they? Just recently. Leschen: So they've extended applications until the end of May and you don't actually have to have paid that $1,500 per eligible employee until the 8th of May. The major banks are funding those so if you're a customer of Westpac, ANZ, NAB or CBA, you can actually go to them and they will do a short term over-draught sort of thing. Josh: Bridging loan type thing. Leschen: Yeah, correct. And at very reasonable rates and that will help you fund a lot of that. So I would be getting on the phone ASAP if you want to do that sort of thing. Josh: That's awesome advice. So Leschen, is there anything else that you'd like to go through that you think I haven't covered off on, that you think would be... Questions or information that we should be given to our listeners? Leschen: Look, if anyone has any questions, happy for you to get some notes and I'll shoot something through, but stress is a big things so look after yourselves and have a clear mind as much as possible. Yeah. Josh: Cool. It's been lovely having you on the show here. I'm going to chuck some links in the description here for Element Business and Accounting Solutions for anyone that's interested in jumping across there and hearing a bit of the voodoo that they do and how they can help you out if you are a bit or you're not sure that you're getting the right advice or if you want anything to do with forecasting and want a bit more information there, make sure to jump across and talk to a wonderful team. And everyone else out there, stay healthy and in Podcast Land, if you have enjoyed this, jump across to iTunes, leave us a review, give us some love and everyone stay good.

Covid Created Customers With Julie Bannister Josh: All right. Everyone out there in podcast land, I've got a cool guest for us today. We've got Julie Bannister from BforB, and she's been doing some special stuff with businesses for a number of years and several different flavours, and overall, she helps businesses grow and thrive. And who wouldn't want to grow and thrive at a time like now? So Julie, tell me, how would you say we could best take advantage of the current pandemic? Learn more about Covid created customers at dorksdelivered.com.au Julie Bannister: Hi Josh. Well thank you and thank you for having me on the podcast today. I think obviously we all are online because we cannot meet face to face and that was the whole part of our business. It was face to face business networking. So we had to pivot. I think that's a trendy word just at the moment. Josh: Isn't it? Julie Bannister: It is. I feel a little bit bad saying it, but we have had to change and we've had to go online. So that is our only option. That's everyone's option is to be online and really to support each other. But I think we all have to realise that it's not the end, it's not that we won't come out the other side of this pandemic, and it's not that we can't also grow in this time. Julie Bannister: So I think that is one thing that we really need to be aware of and for everybody to be aware of, and for us to think of ways that we can, and I've seen many of our members of BforB, and other business people just looking at how they can maybe take things online and sell their product online or doing other things so that they can stay afloat in this time and then come out the other side and thrive. Julie Bannister: So we've got lots of things that we're doing. That's one thing that I think we all need to be looking at, at this present point of time. Josh: Absolutely. Changing around the way that you do business is incredibly important and making sure that you're ready for the boom. And I think this is for some businesses, has come as a complete shock, to other businesses, they've seen this as a bit of a kick in the butt to start doing things a little bit differently. And it's all about just making sure that you're ready. And there's just been a breakneck speed that we've seen people do some of these changes. Josh: I guess what you're saying and I'll bring it to an analogy I'm very fond of which is comparing success to a Chinese bamboo tree. So the Chinese bamboo tree you can plant and for the first five years, it grows only very, very small amounts. And then on the fifth year, in six weeks, it grows 80 feet. Julie Bannister: Oh my goodness! Josh: I know. Julie Bannister: We've got bamboo in our backyard and it's been there for about four years. Josh: And using what you said as an analogy, I think all of us have some bamboo in their own backyard and one way or another. Julie Bannister: Yes. Josh: It's about working that out now and harvesting that and planting the seeds now because people right now isn't the time to bury your head in the sand. It's the time to be building relationships and helping people out and making sure that when things come good, you already have that groundwork done. You already know who you know, like and trust and you've already built those relationships up. Josh: So that you can then move forward and move onwards and upwards. Julie Bannister: Definitely. Josh: So anyone that's looking to start a business, this is the most ideal time. And I can say that with a lot of confidence, knowing that Dorks Delivered would start in 2007 as a bit of a side hustle, another one of those words that everyone overuses. Josh: And it was 2009 that we had the, I guess, mini-recession in Australia and the global financial crisis. And that was our time that we absolutely boomed. I gave up my day job, turned that into my full-time gig and I've never looked back. Julie Bannister: Wow. I didn't know that Josh. I've talked to you a lot, but I didn't know that. Yes, interesting. Josh: Yeah, and I think this is the best time that people should be growing businesses. People shouldn't be closing and they should be pivoting them wherever they can and making sure they're taking advantage of the huge amounts of time that people have available. Julie Bannister: Yes, definitely. Josh: So an example I'll use, my podcast has been running now for a bit of time and the YouTube channel has been running for a bit of time. Josh: We have over 100 videos in the YouTube channel published, I think about 120 podcasts and about 180 recorded. But I was only looking this morning at the dashboard for where we're sitting. So the podcast, just looking at it right now, the podcast, the difference in traffic between February and March increased to 30% more listeners. Julie Bannister: Wow. Josh: If we have a look at the YouTube channel, it's increased. The watch time has gone up by 47%. Julie Bannister: That is amazing. Josh: 47% for the month, just ridiculous. And the view count's gone up by 10% and so I think what we can take home from that is, going up by 10% means that I've got 10% more viewers or customers, but the current customers having watched 47% more of my content has shown that they have enjoyed what we're doing, but they just haven't had the time to look at it in the past. Josh: That's where you've got people with more time and what you guys are offering, which I'd love to make sure everyone else knows a bit more about that, but what you guys are offering is going to mean that they can build those relationships with that available time. If they have available time to watch my stupid videos, they definitely have available time to build relationships. Julie Bannister: I must say that videos, very entertaining. They're not stupid, they're entertaining. Sometimes I'm not quite sure why you said that, and why you say some things, but they are definitely very entertaining. Josh: I'm going to say something I'd normally never say, but I was told many years ago, you can have something that's boring. You can have a boring topic or something that people don't give a crap about and someone said, "They can give a crap about, you just have to roll it in glitter." And I'm like, "Okay, no worries." Josh: So you take a boring subject like IT and stuff like that, and you roll it in glitter and that's what the YouTube channel and podcast is all about. Julie Bannister: That's what you definitely do. Josh: That's right. So you've been running something called BforB in one form or another for quite a while and BforB connects people together and builds those relationships up. Julie Bannister: Yes. Josh: So tell me about what you're doing now for people that are looking to grow their business. Julie Bannister: Yes. Okay. So just to go back a step, you mentioned when you were talking Josh, that building the relationships and that's the core essence of networking and business because you need to build those relationships to actually get, as everybody says, the know, like and trust, so that people will want to do business with you. Julie Bannister: And that's what we do in networking. So now that we can't meet face to face, what we're doing is, we've gone online and obviously, the meetings are free to join in, and we're actually launching in a number of different areas. So we're launching in regional Queensland, we're launching in New South Wales in Sydney, and building extra groups near where we are here in Brisbane and Adelaide, and the Gold Coast. Julie Bannister: So allowing people to join in, in the already established network with our formatted meeting structure, it's formatted and it's professional, but it's friendly and casual if you can have that all in one. And you've attended some Josh and you understand that that's what it is. We like people to have fun when they're there. So currently, we're allowing people to take advantage of that and we're offering free membership, well we're saying three months at the moment, but that may have to be extended. Julie Bannister: We're saying the hopeful, three months, this nightmare, we'll be out of this nightmare and we'll be back to life. But that may need to be extended. So that free membership will be extended for however long we're in this situation and allowing people to join in with our network. And we have some larger meetings where all of the members all over Australia connects. Julie Bannister: So that would be people's opportunity to connect with everyone. But it's allowing people to build the relationships now and when we've got the time, as you mentioned, then when we come out of this, those relationships will still be there. And from that, hopefully, referral business can start happening for many, many people. Wonderful, I'm just so excited about it. Julie Bannister: I was sharing with my coach the other day and we got so excited about what we can do for businesses at the moment. And as you mentioned, Josh, people who are not even in business, it's a great time for people to start thinking about that. Josh: Absolutely. We've got an abundance of time. Julie Bannister: Yes, yes. Everybody's got a lot of time. And there's such an opportunity for everyone in this situation and this is the way that we feel that we can help people, help our current members as well because they get connected with other people and we're all hurting at the moment in one way or another. We're all coping in one way or another and all differently. But this is, I believe, a great opportunity for people to be building those relationships now for the future. Josh: Fully agree, as you've pointed out in different words, but your network is your net worth. Julie Bannister: Yes, definitely. Josh: And creating a good network and talking to people right now is the best thing you can do. Those without a voice, won't be heard. And if you're going to just sit there in your sorrows, it's not going to build your business or your mindset, or grow yourself personally. So jumping into a group, as you've very, very generously pushed a free reason. There's no reason, there's nothing to lose, if they just want to spend a bit of time building up their relationships with people now. Josh: When everyone comes back, as I was saying with the bamboo tree, as soon as everyone kicks back into gear, things will be striving through and thriving for them and their business. So it's sensible to set the groundwork now. Sow the seeds, put them in the ground, even if it's not five years, if it's five months that we're in this a pandemic for, it would mean that in five months' time you've hit the gas pedal and you're absolutely cracking out goals. So we'll make sure to put a link towards that because I think that's very, very important and that people do jump onto that. Julie Bannister: There's one thing else that you touched on is that, some of us, and I know even in the last couple of weeks, I've wanted to put my head in the sand or go back to bed and put the pillow over my head and forget that anybody even exists. Josh: I had a talk to my mate, Jack Daniels. We're sweet. We were pretty close. Julie Bannister: My challenge is that if I get too stressed, alcohol doesn't do me good at all. So that's not my answer. But I think we have to not be tough on ourselves because realising that some moments in the day will feel a bit like that and other moments will feel, no, I can do this. So we really do need to acknowledge that and get connected with people so that we can all pull each other through all of this and not be too hard on ourselves, I believe. Josh: Absolutely. Being able to sit down and just, if you want to do it with me right now, Julie, I think it'd be good. Just take a deep breath, and take a breathe in, and breathe out. And then just know, and recollect yourself, and recollect your thoughts and your position. Feel comfortable about where you've come from and this is something that I always try reflecting on every three months, every year, every five years, I go back and look at each of the different business plans that I've made either from the start of the year and go, okay, what have I achieved? Josh: What have I been able to achieve? What have I been able to climb out of? What's been the driving motivator and those things and go, I can do lots. I can't believe how much I've done and be excited about those things and then go, okay, how can I, in a time like now where people are thinking we don't have the resources to do things, we don't have the ability to go and see people. Josh: It's a time where you just need to pivot your mindset and think about how resourceful we have the world at the moment. Being able to do things such as Zoom. We have the ozone layer that's clearing itself up at the moment. We have a huge amount of benefits that are coming from this. Now there's going to be a whole bunch of fallout from that as well and what the world looked like when we went in is not going to be what it looks like when we come back out. Josh: But knowing that you're still here fighting the fight and you have a game plan and way to position your business, it gives you something to drive towards and thrive towards. Like your kids at Christmas time when you tell them to be good and then say Santa's coming. Like, "Oh, I'll be good then." You just got to have something to work towards and know that you can create that sparkle in your eye and your family's. Julie Bannister: Yes. I think the gem in that is, or the key point in that is being connected with other people, whether it's your family, but I think business people, we are a little bit different and we can't always talk to our family members about the challenges or the stress that we're feeling in business. So being connected with business people, is really important in any way you at the moment, I think. Yes. Josh: Absolutely. You're exactly right Julie, and we need to have people being connected with their businesses and what they're doing and also understand that your business and your personal life are two separate things and building relationships in business can help you out personally as well as in business. That's very, very important to make sure you differentiate the health of your business and the health of yourself. Josh: I paused everything to do with Dorks Delivered and I paused it for three days as I went through the personal approach and game plan as to what we would be doing and how we'd be making sure we're okay personally. And then once I was confident with the results, I then started looking at the vehicle that brings us the success that we've got in our lives. Julie Bannister: That's very interesting. I didn't know that. That's another point I didn't know, but I also didn't even think of doing that. So that's a very good point Josh. Josh: Well I think it's knowing that your family is going to be healthy. I'm a bit of a forward thinker and I'll plan for the worst and hope for the best and that's what everyone should do. Nothing out of the ordinary. I didn't go do some bulk buying or anything like that. I don't have a room full of toilet paper. Julie Bannister: I hope you've got enough though. Josh: I've got a mango tree at the back. Julie Bannister: Ooh. Josh: But yeah, just the normal amount that fits under our sink and that we'd normally buy and just knowing that we've got our water bottles filled up. I've got CB radio set up to mum and dad if something was to go wrong with the phone networks or internet or something like that. Just knowing if we have a complete blackout type situation, that you can still talk to your loved ones and where you're at with your mindset and your finances and that. Josh: That's something that I'd definitely suggest everyone doing is just having a look at what the government is putting on the line for businesses. There is quite a number of things we went through and we could see that if you were to be in an 800,000 to $10 million turnover business, you'd be pretty comfortably able to find about $350,000 worth of advantages from the government at the moment. Julie Bannister: I haven't added that up. That's interesting. Josh: Yeah. So that's the numbers that we've got too and we've been talking to any other businesses, and this was something that I went through and spent a couple of days just looking at all the different literature that's available online to see what any of the different stimulus packages include and don't include, and make sure that you're aware of them before you start stressing out thinking customers are leaving and this is happening and that's happening. Josh: Just take a moment to collect yourself, see where you're at and see what is actually available out there and you'd be surprised at what businesses are happy to help out with and in a time like now, as I said, it's about building relationships. One business, we spoke to them, someone that we buy things from, so a vendor for us and we said, "Look, we need to know, are you relaxing any of your terms? You've pretty much presented us with a bill for $3,000." Josh: And he said, "No, if you don't like it, you don't have to stay with us." And I said, "Well, at the moment we would love to stay with you, but it's an auxiliary product that we weren't using with many customers." And we said, No, we're going to have to cut you out." And he goes, "We've had 30 cancellations this month. I don't know what's going on." And I thought, "Well you're an idiot then." Julie Bannister: He needs to open his eyes and ears. Definitely, wow. Josh: I said to him, "We'd be more than happy to utilise your products more than what we have been. We definitely see value in your product. If you give us some marketing material, we're happy to promote your product to help us help you out with this situation." Josh: And he said, "Oh no, I don't have time for that." I went, "Ah well, if you're not going to invest in your customers, you're not going to invest in your relationships. You're not going to invest in your business." It's fair that businesses with that mindset will collapse. And that's again, another thing that I found in going to the BforBs was, it's not just about the business, but you have a whole bunch of other advantages where you have keynote speakers and you have people come to these groups and they talk about the importance of doing certain things in business. Josh: Whether that be setting up your business in a certain way from an accounting perspective or creating videos for promoting your business or whatever the case may be. Automating and bringing back your life, which I'm a big fan of. Julie Bannister: We do have our guest speakers and that is a great value add. And just recently, we've been having a lot of speakers talking about the different packages that the government is offering and a lot of people are doing this, but we're still giving support around your mental health and things like that. But overall, we have guest speakers who talk about marketing, sales, IT, accounting, mindset, all different topics that can help people in their business. Julie Bannister: So yes, definitely, that is a great value add. And as you mentioned, it's not just about business, the friendships people make in BforB is just, it's so valuable, you can't put a price on it. And another value add that a lot of people receive from being a member of BforB is the confidence that you build because little by little, so you might be asked to do a one-minute infomercial and that's very frightening to a lot of people. Josh: Absolutely. Julie Bannister: Yes. And then we'll ask you to do a five minute, and then a 10 minute, and many of our members who've joined and was so scared to do a one-minute infomercial, are actually doing 25-minute presentations now. So it's a confidence-building and within a very, very, very supportive environment. Yes. So that's one of the biggest benefits I believe. Josh: You were talking about some things, new things that you learned about me today. One of the things, I can't remember if I've told you this or not, but I was severely bullied at school to a spot that I wasn't able to walk and I was very introverted. I was the guy that, I'm going to call myself wicked awesome at chess. No one challenged me to that because if you're challenging me, you're probably better, but I was the guy in the library playing chess. Josh: That was my hangout. I was not confident to talk to people. I was not confident to be in the spotlight whatsoever. I was overweight and it was a battle and it was a time where something clicked and I realised that if I have developed the cure for cancer from a computer standpoint in managing and automating businesses, but I'll have that sitting in my garage. Josh: No one has the advantage from that. I'm sure someone has got a cure for cancer and it's just sitting in their garage and they don't have the voice to be able to speak, and speak and talk to people about it. And things like BforB, and being able to come outside of your comfort circle. Josh: Proud of me knowing about BforB was put onto a roadshow to talk to people about IT. It was a five-day roadshow. The first day that I did that roadshow, I recorded it because I was going to put it up on the web for people to have a look at. I watched it. I nearly threw up. I was like, oh my goodness, that's terrible. I can't believe I've done that. I've got four more days of this with no audience engagement and I've gone, oh this is terrible. This is so terrible. I was going to call in sick. I've never wanted my mum to write me a letter to say I can't come to school so much as a grown adult. Josh: I was thinking, I'm freaking out. I watched that same 30 minute video, maybe 10 times that night and I'm writing down what did I do wrong? How did I move my hands? I didn't like that. I look really nervous. How can I fix this? And I wrote down and critiqued everything. The Tuesday, I did the presentation and everyone loved it. They stood up and clapped. They gave me a standing ovation. Josh: I thought, oh, this makes Wednesday a lot easier. That's not to say I didn't watch it still, but BforB gives you exactly that power to be able to... It doesn't matter if you're a scared little mouse and you sit down. It gives you the growth to be able to talk and to know that other people are in the same boat as you. You're not just the only person that's feeling that way. Julie Bannister: That's exactly right. Yes, and that's actually the thing that rocks my boat in BforB is watching people grow and getting that confidence. The referrals, yes, because we need a return on our investment. That is still very important. But that confidence building, it's grows the person and the business. So that's so important. Josh: Yeah, well, Julie it's been great speaking with you and is there anything else you'd like to talk about before we finish this one up? Julie Bannister: We have some online meetings. As I mentioned before, we have our BforB regular meetings at the same time that we used to have our regular face to face meetings. We've got monthly networking, which is open to everyone to come on and we have a guest speaker with that one and I can share the link with you, Josh if you feel that's appropriate. Josh: That'd be perfect. Absolutely, that'd be great. Julie Bannister: Yes. And we do have our daily business, every business day from 10 o'clock till 11:30 where people can just come in and chat with us. No formal meeting, just connecting with people. So yeah. Josh: Cool. Well Julie, I'll make sure to make sure that all of our listeners out there in podcast land get those links and are able to really have a compounding growth for their business over the next few, hopefully only weeks, probably months, but likely, several months. But we'll see how they go. Julie Bannister: Definitely. Thanks for having me. Josh: No worries. And if anyone has enjoyed this, make sure to jump across to iTunes, give us a review, and everyone out there, stay good.

Helping Yourself With Bob Burg Josh: So we've got Bob Burg here today, and he's an absolute legend in his field. He's changed the way that I do business, he's changed my life. He was one of the first self-help books that I read. And ultimately it's something that I always talk to, a massive influencer for me. And I talk to all my clients and make sure that they go and read, number one The Go-Giver. They need to jump into that, that changes the way you do business. So Bob, tell me a bit about The Go-Giver. Get more tips from Bob Burg at dorksdelivered.com.au  Watch this episode on Youtube: https://youtu.be/GS2jTHebvHA Bob Burg: Well it's a business parable. So it's a fictional story based on all tried and proven principles. And there's a lot of stories within the story that actually happen. But the actual work is a work of fiction. It's co-authored by John David Mann who's a fantastic storyteller and writer. I'm much more of a how-to guy. And it's a story of a guy named Joe who's a young up-and-coming, ambitious, aggressive salesperson. He's a good guy and he has good intent, but he's very frustrated because he hasn't reached the kind of success he believes he should have by this point. But he really comes to learn that the big problem, his focus is really on himself when it comes right down to it as opposed to others. And what he learns through the story, is that when you can shift your focus off of yourself and onto others. Being focused on creating or what we call getting exceptional value to everyone you meet, you realise that not only is that a more pleasant way of conducting business, it's actually the most financially profitable way as well. Josh: I have to say I completely agree. Having read your book, it would have been now, I couldn't even say how many years ago. It was many, many years ago I read. I started off with The Go-Giver and I thought, this is amazing. Jumped onto The Go-Giver Leader, jumped onto Sell me More, and then Endless Referrals, and The Success Formula. I nearly have the library. Bob Burg: Wow, thank you. That's a great compliment. Josh: I can say your teachings are amazing. And the way that that was done in The Go-Giver was a very light, easy read in my opinion. It related to lots of people and it wasn't something that you... You pick it up and you just wanted to read, you didn't want to put it down. It wasn't something that was hard to read. Bob Burg: And that goes to John, that's his writing skills. Josh: It helped. And especially in my naivety when I was first starting out in business, being able to read something like that and go, okay this sounds good. And knowing that there is good ways and great ways to do business, as opposed to the ruthless cutthroat methods that seem to be fictionalised in movies. Bob Burg: Yeah. And I think that's one of the reasons there was appeal for the book, for the message. Because most human beings, they want to feel like they're making a positive difference in people's lives. And so I think what the book said is basically, yeah you can do business that way. Not only is it can you focus on bringing value to others, and not only is it going to have you feel good about yourself, not only are you going to make money doing that, but that's actually the more effective way of doing it than focusing on yourself. Because you think about this, and I often will say this in a joking manner when I speak at a sales conference. One of the first things I'll say is, "Nobody's going to buy from you because you have a quota to me." Josh: Yeah, exactly. Bob Burg: Right? They're not going to buy from you, right and we all laugh because we all know that's true. No one's going to buy from us because we need the sale, right? They're not going to buy from you because you need the money. And they're not even going to buy from you because you're a nice person. They're going to buy from you because they believe that they will be better off by doing so than by not doing so. And that's perfect, it's the only reason why anyone should buy from you, or from me, or from anyone else. And the neat thing about that is what it does is it makes it so that sales person or entrepreneur who can place their focus on that other person, placing that other person's interest first, doing what's in the best interest of that other person and being able to communicate that. That's the person who's going to be more successful both in the short-term and the longer sustainable term. Josh: Well I can say, the proof is in the pudding and I've made my business on the pudding that you gave me. Bob Burg: Oh, okay. Josh: So yeah, it worked out really well. And as you said, it should be straight-forward but it just doesn't seem to come by nature. And I know, I myself I'm very technical. My background's technical, my skill set's technical and I was the technician that decided I've got something better to give to the world. And excuse the French, but scared shitless when it came to trying to sell or talk to people about it. And your books described it perfectly, don't sell. Just show people what you've got to offer- Bob Burg: Well, here's what it is. It's not that you're not selling, but we define selling differently right? Josh: Yeah, exactly. Bob Burg: Because when you think about it a lot of people say, well what's selling? Selling is trying to convince someone to buy something they don't want or need. Well that's not selling, that's called being a thief. So what is selling? Well selling, by definition selling is simply discovering what that other person does want, does need, does desire and helping them to get it. The Old English root of the word sell was sellan, which literally meant to give. So, when you're selling you're literally giving. No, someone might say, well wait a second isn't that semantics? And I say, well I don't think so and here's why. Let's say you have a prospective customer in front of you and they want to know why. Why they should do business with you, why you're the solution to their problem, why that... Well, so you're in a sales situation, you are selling. So my question would be, when you're selling what are you giving? I suggest you're giving that person time, attention, counsel, education, empathy and ultimately extreme value. So when we look at selling that way, now we see that it's really something good that we're doing. Josh: You're helping everyone ultimately, unless you're being a thief as you said. Bob Burg: Oh yeah, sure. And that's not selling, that's being a thief. Josh: That's right. As long as you've got a good product, a good mindset, and you believe in what you're doing, and what you're selling, and what your message is I find that your customers become your best salespeople. Bob Burg: Oh, absolutely. They become your personal walking ambassadors. Josh: Correct, yeah. And it's an amazing concept, so anyone that hasn't read The Go-Giver definitely needs to jump into it. It's a must-read, it needs to sit on there on the shelf as one of the first books that you read next to E-Myth and other classics. And in fact when I first met my partner Sarah, she'd started a first business as the first set of... Backstory, met her on Tinder. I would have rather met her in a nicer way, but we live in the age that we live in. So, met her on Tinder, and the first time we caught up together she had her folder there and I caught up with her. She didn't know if it was a business meeting or a date. And I was talking to her about different ways that she could better her business. And if I don't say so myself, quite the gentleman opening the door and so on and so forth for her. And I said one of the first things you need to do is read The Go-Getter, and this copy that I've actually got here now that we've been together for a while is signed by me saying, To all your success, Love Josh. Bob Burg: That's great. Josh: So this is actually the book that I had for myself and I gifted to her. And it's come straight back, although that sounds a bit corny it's exactly the message that you're giving, you give, and it comes back to you. And it comes back to you in... I gave her a book and I got a life partner. How good's that? So it comes back to you significantly more than what you give out. Bob Burg: Well that's awesome. And I never thought of my book going along on a Tinder date, or business opportunity or what have you but I'm glad it did. Josh: So here you are. You're obviously an invite to the wedding. Bob Burg: Definitely, exactly. Josh: Yeah, just a little thank you on that one. And the opportunities don't stop when you turn off your sales cap. It's always on if you're passionate about it good things always come your way. Bob Burg: Yep. Josh: So tell me about what happens after the book, when someone's read the book what's the next steps they can do to find out how to better themselves and adventure onwards past he one-way literature. Bob Burg: Well application is always really key. And that's why in the story itself Pindar, the main mentor told Joe there was really only one condition for his mentorship. And that is that he applied those laws. Every day, that every time he learned a new law he would apply the law that day. It didn't have to be done perfectly and it wasn't a matter of figuring out exactly why or why it wouldn't work or what have you. Just do the thing, right? Just take action on it. And so we find the feedback that we received from a lot of people, bless you, a lot of people do that. A lot of people will take one law and say, okay how do I apply this? How do I do this? And then they'll work on that. I always think that's a great way to start. So you ask yourself, how do I bring value to another human being? And when you think about it we have to really understand what value is, what it means. A lot of times I think people maybe confuse price and value, and those are actually two different terms. For example the law of value says your true worth is determined by how much more you give in value than you take in payment. But you think about it, that sounds like a recipe for bankruptcy. Give more in value than I take in payment, aren't I going to go out of business? And so we simply have to understand the difference between price and value. So what we know is that price is a dollar amount, it's a dollar figure, it's finite. It simply is wat it is, it's the price. Value on the other hand is the relative worth or desirability of a thing, of something to the end user or beholder. In other words, what is it about this thing, this product, this service, this concept, this idea that bring with it so much worth or value to another human being that they will willingly exchange their money for this. And be glad, be ecstatic that they did while you make a very healthy profit. And so when you automate for example somebody's business, and do this in a way that... What's the value you're providing? You're saving them time, you're saving them energy, you're saving them from making needless mistakes, you're making it so that they're going to make more money in their business. So I guarantee you that whatever it is you charge that person, they're getting much more in value than what they're paying. But you're making a very healthy profit because obviously with your cost of goods sold, and rent and everything else you're selling the service for much, much more than what you're having to pay to support it. And that's why in a market-based economy with every sale there should be two profits. The buyer profits and the seller profits because each of them come away better off afterwards than they were beforehand. So, that's the law of value. It's not a matter of, some people might think The Go-Giver, does that mean you're giving away your products or services? No. Does it mean you're not making a profit? Of course not. As a Go-Giver you're going to make a much higher profit because your focus is going to be on the value, the experience, everything you proved that other person, right? Not low-price, when you sell them low-price you're a commodity. When you sell on high-value you're a resource. Josh: Well that's it. Too many people, there's a podcast we did a few weeks ago on apples versus oranges, how could they possible be the same price? When people are comparing apples with apples, and as soon as you are comparing apples with apples you commoditize your business, and then the only thing you can fight on is price. And that's where you need to be able to bring that value, bring that change. So you've got value, price and cost. Bob Burg: Yeah. And here's the thing. So when you look at the price, and I think the cost is pretty self-explanatory. The price is self-explanatory, right? But when we talk about value, that can be both concrete in terms of when someone saves a certain amount of money, when you help someone make a certain amount that's fine. But there's so much more to the experience itself even, that's conceptual in nature. But here's what we've got to really understand, that value is always in the eyes of the beholder. Josh: Yes. Bob Burg: So what that other person feels is valuable about your product, or service, or doing business with you or what have you. Not what you think is of value, or what you think they should think is of value. It's about what they do. So if we're going to say to somebody, okay so how do you practise the law of value, right? Well the first thing you do is ask questions, and make sure you discover what other people find to be of value and then you go from there. Because it's not a matter of just doing things that you think are of value to others, that's fine. But what you feel is of value may not be what they feel is. Josh: Right. And then there's this disparity between your service offerings not being seen as valuable. Bob Burg: Stand-by, right? Josh: Yeah. So it's a very valuable lesson. And I know that you're big on authority building and influence, and I think that is something that could bring out a lot of value to people. Something that can show people your worth in mass without having to necessarily having to spend time as a commodity. You're able to put a resource in front of people or it's able to come about in front of them where they can see the things that can benefit their business and benefit their life. How would you go about starting off becoming an influencer? Bob Burg: So I think it's always a good thing, I'm always a big believer in defining terms so that we're all facing the same direction. So when you think about what influence even is, on a very basic level influence can be defined as simply the ability to move a person or persons to a desired action, usually within the context of a specific goal. So by definitely that's [inaudible 00:24:47]. Now that's the definitely, but I don't believe that's the essence of influence. The essence of influence is pull. Pull as opposed to push, as in the saying how far can you push a rook? And the answer's not very, at least not very fast or very effectively. Which is why great influencers don't push, right? You never hear people saying, wow that Tom or that Nancy, she is so influential. She has a lot of push with people. No, she's influential she has a lot of pull with people. That's what influence is. It's pull, it's an attraction. Great influencers first attract people to themselves, and only then to their idea. So how do we do that? So the law of influence says, in the book the law of influence says your influence is determined by how abundantly you place other people's interests first. Well what does that mean? We're not talking about being self-sacrificial, or being a martyr, or being a doormat. But no, here's what we mean. Like this person who utilises pull in order to influence. That person's always asking themselves questions such as, how does what I am asking this other person do, how does it align with their goals, their wants, their needs, their desires? How does what I want this other person to do, how does it align with their values? How am I making their life better? What is a problem of theirs I am helping them to solve. And see Josh, when we ask ourselves these questions thoughtfully, intelligently, genuinely, authentically, not as a way to manipulate another human being into doing our will, but as a way of building everyone in the process. Now we've come a lot closer to earning that person's commitment as opposed to trying to depend on some type of compliance which is push, right? That's pushing ourselves or pushing our will and so forth. Josh: So say you're a small business, you've just started out and you've got just yourself. You've just read The Go-Giver and you're thinking about how can you change your methodology from being a push. I'm sure you've seen some of the pyramid schemes that are out there that have generally more push than pull from a sales perspective and they're trying to get you to on sale certain products without mentioning brands and bits and pieces. There's lots of them out there and that's always a very push, and their sales training has all been very push. How would you change someone from a push mentality into a pull mentality? And how would you change around their processes to allow for that to come to fruition and be noticed by, either their existing customers that have come about probably through getting sick of saying no, and they've finally said yes. Or how would you then change the mentality of their customer base or do you think it would be a bit more of a situation where you'd refresh the customer base? Or I guess how would you change your mindset from the 1980s this is how I'm going to be pushing something onto someone, to the 2020s soon to be. How would you change their process? Bob Burg: So I would say regardless of the field, if it's sales there are certain people who do it through push, and the good ones, the sustainably successful ones do it through pull. The ones who do it through push, and have been successful, and have been successful for a long time. They have to continue repeating the process over, and over, and over again with new people all the time. It's exhausting, it's very, very dificult. You can do it but it's very dificult to build a sustainable business that way. The ones who do it through pull regardless of the business, regardless of the industry. These are the people who typically are able to really develop a wonderful referral base, and as you were mentioning earlier people who are out there singing your praises, right? What we call personal walking ambassadors. So I think it beginning with the initial conversation. And let's say you meet someone somewhere and you're at a business social function. And you just say hello, and you say your name, and they say their name. And you ask them what they do and they tell you what they do. And they're going to probably give you some elevator speech, right? I send high-end copying machines to business that need to blah, blah, blah, right? And so forth because that's what most people have been taught to do. So you want to listen respectfully when they do it, but then when they ask you what you do which they'll probably do. My suggestion is to rather than do some elevator speech, because remember right now when this person first meets you they really don't care about you, and don't care about what you do. They care about themselves. So my feeling is just say the name, say whatever your company is, whatever you do. I'm an accountant with so-and-so or whatever. But then you're going to go right back to asking that person questions about themselves and about their business. So I have questions I call feel good questions. And those are questions that are not salesy, they're not prospecty, they're not intrusive, they're not invasive. They just make this person feel genuinely good about themselves, about the situation, and about you. And remember when you're focusing on them you're taking the pressure off yourself. You don't have to be that person who has that clever pushy line and so forth. So the first feel good question that you could ask is simply, how did you get your start or how did you get started in the copying machine business? Or selling copying machines or what have you. Or you may say, how did you get your start in the office products profession? For a little bit more elegant. Whatever it is that person does, asking them how they got their start is a fantastic way to immediately communicate value to them. Because again, value is much more than just money. It's making the person feel important, feel good about themselves. And how many people ever ask this person how they got started in their business. I guarantee no one, their own family probably doesn't ask that person. And here's you who they just met, and you're asking them basically to tell you their story, and they're going to appreciate that. I would follow that up probably with another fielded question such as, what do you enjoy most about what you do? You'll probably segue into it by saying, wow you must have had some fascination experiences. What do you enjoy most about your work? Or what do you enjoy most about what you do? Again, it's a feel good question. There's no pressure attached to it. Now when you've begun to develop a little bit of a rapport with that person, I would then suggest asking what I call the one key question that will set you apart from practically everyone else that person has ever met, and that question sound something like this. Gary, how can I know if someone I'm speaking with is a good prospective customer for you? And think about what you've done when asking that question, right? Unlike other people who are just again trying to sell their product or service right away, what have you. You have actually said to this person, not in so many words, but what you've communicated is I want to help you. I want to add value to your life. I want to make your life better. Josh: You give something to them, yeah. Bob Burg: Yeah. And they're going to really appreciate that. Now, at the end of the conversation you've got their business card, you can follow up with a personalised hand-written note which is so much better than a text or an email. Even though those are always good, but after you first meet someone there's nothing like a personalised note or card to send hand-written just saying it was great meeting you. If I can ever refer business your way I certainly will. And you've not established a connection, you've now established a relationship with this person that you can then begin to build on however you do it. Whether it's by, then you connect with that person on social media. Whenever you can refer that person to someone else, or if you know that person has an interest in antiques and you find an article on antiques. And you print it out and you send it to them and say, hey I came across this and I remember you love antiques, thought you might find... All these things you're doing, you're just creating that relationship with that person. And this does not have to take a long time, it doesn't. And what happens is when you do this consistently, okay. And you do this over time with new people on an every day basis you start developing so many people within your new sphere of influence that you've always got someone who's at that point where it's ready for you to approach them about either doing business with them directly and/or referrals. Josh: What you're saying there you need to make sure that you are genuinely listening to people. You're not just hearing them, you need to be, lack of a better word, involved emotionally in what they're saying, and listening to what they're saying, and actually action from that information. You don't want to be just hearing them and then, oh yeah, yeah. Cool, cool. You like remote control racing. That's cool. Okay, moving on. You need to be ready and engaged to build that relationship if that's what's important. And ultimately in business it is the currency that is the most important, building relationships. All ships rise in high tide, especially relationships. Bob Burg: Yep, sure. Yeah. As we say, and several of the mentors told Joe in the story, the golden rule of business, of sales, of networking what have you is simply that all things being equal, people will do business with, and refer business to those people they know, like and trust. There's no faster, more powerful or more effective way to elicit these feelings towards you from others than by, and again as you said genuinely, right? Genuinely and authentically, and moving from that I focus, or me focus to that other focus where you're really looking to, as Sam one of the mentors advised Joe, make your win all about that other person's win. Josh: Yeah, 100%. It is all about the other person, and it should always be about the other person. And when people say... All the things that salesmen say. I'm not closing enough, it's all a numbers game. All this other stuff, there's always someone out there as you said that's ready to build a relationship, ready to be heard, and ready to have their story heard. And building those relationships when the time comes will come. If you're being a pushy person it's all about the numbers, and you're trying to change your three percent conversion to a five percent, or a five percent to a 10 percent when you're calling up. It's a yuckier game with a lot more negativity. It's a game that you have a lot of friction towards building the relationships, as opposed to genuinely building relationships. Bob Burg: Oh yeah, it always comes back to how you do it. If you're doing it with the, how do I serve this person? You're going to have a lot more success than if you were saying I'm going to talk at this person and try to get them to buy. Again, it's not that doing it the Go-Giver way is self-sacrificial. No. It's more practical doing it that way. Because again, are they more likely or less likely to buy from you when they can tell that you're focused on them as opposed to being focused on getting their money. Josh: And I've got to say that the solutions that you're putting in place, you've been listening to them. You understand their problems, you understand their stresses, you understand their pain points. You're able to then focus on that and make sure that you're removing those problems, not just explaining that moving to this solution is better for your business. You're hearing their problems and saying, well maybe this isn't better for your business. Bob Burg: Right. Josh: And that's fine as well. Bob Burg: Absolutely, when that happens that happens. Josh: If you've still got a perfect person there that you've been talking to, building a relationship with. They know the solutions that they offer, they know the things that it does, the things that it doesn't, the bells and whistles. And that then allows for them to then refer other businesses on when they see that there is a better fit for you, and they hear other people's problems. Bob Burg: That's right. Josh: And that's where you have your compounding effect of growth and it's really a beaut feeling. So I've been very excited. As I said, The Go-Getter changed my life. Changed the direction, and not just from a personal relationship perspective that I brought up earlier, much before that. So yeah, again thank you for that one. Bob Burg: My pleasure. Josh: I've read different books. There's one, I hope I'm not quoting the wrong name here. If I am I'll correct it with the title. I think it's called Sapiens, and it talks about how many relationships a single person can have in their life and build out from that. And they talk around the magic number of... That's weird. Bob Burg: That's Sapiens. Josh: That's the one. Bob Burg: Yeah. And he talked about the tribes back in the hunter-gatherer days were typically about 150. And that's the number, David Burkus writes about that too in his book. And yeah, I'm just trying to think of the person... Durham's or Dunham's, I can't think of what law it is. But it's that he's the person that came up and he documented that 150 per person. Josh: For anyone that's watching this, that wasn't staged there. You've got hundreds of books behind you, what are the chances the one on your desk- Bob Burg: Well the funny thing is, a good friend of mine had referred Sapiens to me about two years ago. And I always have so many books on the list to read, finally I was speaking in I think Colorado maybe a couple of weeks ago and I got that at the book store, I saw it at the book store. And I was looking for it, I was hoping to pick it up. And I started reading it and I really haven't been able to put it down. I'm about three quarters of the way through now, it's fascinating Josh: It's a fantastic book. With building relationships, and obviously all different businesses have... I guess you brought home exactly what I was bringing up in the book. And that's the rule of 150, maybe 200 people. And if you are in the business of selling items that... If you're in a business where you need to sell more items and not say a B2B business and profession industry like myself. If I have 50-70 businesses that I'm working with I'm happy as Larry, and I can comfortable have those 70 relationships. But if you're selling something that is a lower priced item you need to have a significantly higher ratio. Maybe it's 500 to 1 or something like that, and you still want to have those relationships built. And you want to have the authenticity with the relationships, but knowing that you can't necessarily have the closeness, and as they talk about the different circles of relationships that you have. You have your close intimate relationships and then it goes out from there. How do you make sure, how do you keep the authenticity? Would you suggest people using different databasing programmes to write down notes on people. To make sure if you don't talk to them for two years and then they come back to you and they said, Larry I really loved the talk that we had at the business conferencing meeting from two years ago that you can barely remember because there was too many beers flying around. And what would be the best method to make sure you are bing authentic. Would you say, Larry I'm glad we had a good chat but don't remember, what'd you say? As soon as you get home, as soon as you get back to the office write down what you remember about Larry and make sure that you can have a refresh? Bob Burg: Well I think the key with technology is to always use it to help with your authenticity, you know what I'm saying? So in other words it shouldn't be that it's about the technology, it's not. It's about the human relationship when you can utilise technology to do that. So I do want to write down what I talked about with someone and review it every so often because I do want to know, okay? But if something comes up where I happen to see that person or what have and they bring that up, and it's really not something that I do remember. No, again it depends on the contexts. Usually I'm going to say, you know what my gosh. I love you, love talking with you but I don't remember exactly what we talked about in that conversation. If you have that kind of relationship you can do that. But if it's going to hurt that person's feelings because that person maybe whatever. Well no, I'd probably just say, always love talking to you and that was great. Again, sometimes I think we go too overboard with being literal in some ways. You always want to be honest, but you also always want to be kind and tactful as well. So when technology can help you to authentically keep in touch with another person, absolutely. Totally we utilise that. Josh: Cool. That's perfect. So that's something that I know that myself, I write down as many things as I can remember about as many conversations that I had with people. And that could be whether or not they liked Chivas Regal or a dog named whatever the dogs name is. Bob Burg: Well then that's good. Because if they like Chivas Regal, and that might be something you mights end them sometimes on a special occasion. If their dog's name is Checkers and you want to be able to remember that their dog's name is Checkers when you speak. If you can remember it just because you remember it, that's great. I love animals so I tend to remember people's pets names. But that's not everybody, and there's other things about people I don't remember. And in that case you need that reminder. So no, I think all of that is great when it helps to further a relationship and it's authentic and genuine, of course. Utilise the technology. Josh: As I said, I think technology is perfect to be able to help people out. But as you said, do not overcome the personal touch. Don't use technology to be personal, use technology to get rid of the repetition. But use yourself and your power that you have, your voice that you use to build those personal relationships. Bob Burg: Exactly. Josh: And that's what it's about. The cavemen had different tools that they used to achieve their objectives. And the time has changed, the chairs we sit in are different, the offices have air con in them, but we use a different set of tools to achieve the same objectives which is awesome. Bob Burg: They're just tools, exactly. Josh: Well we're getting very close to the end here. I wanted to ask, is there any speaking events or things that you do either around the states, or within Australia or down under that are coming up anytime soon? Bob Burg: Typically at this point I travel a lot less than I used to. At 61, I just don't want to be travelling all over the place, so I limit my out of state engagements to about 20 a year now. And I try to now keep it within the states. And those are my corporate programmes that I do, but we also have public seminars that we do usually in Orlando because it's easier for people from Australia, and Singapore, and South Africa, and London and so forth to get there. And so we hold them in Orlando, which is really only a couple of hours drive for me up the road. But Orlando because it's Disney World it's easier for people to get into. So our next one is actually in late January, it's called Endless Referrals: The Go-Giver Way. We limit those to about 50 people, so it's over two days and it's very hands on. So those are the ones that will be the public ones that we'll be doing from now on. And I have so many great mates in Australia, and if I could beam myself there I would do that in a minute. But the long flight, I just don't travel well anymore, so. Josh: Well I've [crosstalk 00:46:15]. Bob Burg: I stay pretty close to home. Josh: It took me two weeks to get over the jet lag when I last entered The States. I know this is pretty bad, but give me your favourite Aussie accent. Your best Aussie accent. Bob Burg: Oh, let's see. Hey mate, lovely to see you. Love all my mates down there, and we'll have a good time no worries, no worries. Josh: That sound pretty good. I don't mind that, that's good. Bob Burg: We love Australians, we love our Aussie mates so it's always a neat thing, and it's always a joy to connect with any of my friends from the beautiful land down under. Josh: Well I had the opportunity to head over for three months last year so I was travelling all around the place. And I'd have to say it's like you're travelling to different countries with each state that you go to. Bob Burg: Oh, it's amazing I know. Josh: Where Australia is in my opinion more so not as diverse. You have parts that are definitely greener and parts that are more tropical, but overall the accent doesn't vary a whole bunch. The people mentality, that doesn't change a whole bunch. Except for obviously things such as you go into the middle of the city in New York, and you go to Sydney and there's the hustle and bustle. People aren't as friendly, but that's just the nature of the beast. And for anyone who does want to head to any of your opportunities that you've got either in-person or any of the content that you have, you've got the Go-Giver movement, is that right? Bob Burg: Yeah. General website is Burg B-U-R-G.com. The two day workshop is Endlessreferrals.com, and we also have Thegogiver.com. So we've got content all over the place there. Josh: We'll chuck some links down below, all the appropriate places depending on where this gets seen. You can jump across there and have a bit of a look. And I'd like to thank you for coming along and talking with me. And we've got this beautiful summer day in paradise here, that's why I thought I'd head outside. Is there anything else that you'd like to cover off on before we jump? Bob Burg: No, this has been a lot of fun, very enjoyable. And I wish everybody who is watching and listening, I just wish you a fantastic 2020, may it be your best year yet. Josh: Thank you very much Bob, and I appreciate you coming along. Bob Burg: Thank you.

How to Set Your Pricing With Courtney Deagon Josh: We've got a very special guest for you today. Who here hasn't had that problem, that question, how do I price my item? Is it on what it's costing me plus a percentage? Do I look out into the wilderness and see what my competitors are doing, or do I somehow come up with some other equation? Get more tips on how to set your pricing at dorksdelivered.com.au Josh: It's always an interesting one and there's a lot of psychology into it. And I'd like to introduce Courtney here, who's going to talk a little bit more about how pricing works and why it's super important. So Courtney, tell me, what's the one thing you should never do when it comes to pricing? Courtney Deagon: Wow, Josh, that is such a big question. What's the one thing you should never do when it comes to pricing? One of the things that I always talk about is not just relying on your costs to set your price. And I know that it's such a common thing that's taught, especially to smaller new business owners, because it comes from cost accounting. It makes sense logically to calculate our costs and add on a percentage. Courtney Deagon: But in more cases than not, this can actually lead to business burnout and not having pricing that's profitable and even good for your business or your customers. The truth about your pricing is that your customers are going to pay, they show their willingness to pay and their willingness to pay doesn't change depending on your costs. Your customers don't care about your costs, they care about the value of what you do and what you provide. Josh: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so how do you make sure that you put the right value on that? Does that come down to the psychology, the message, or is that making sure that you're jumping into the why, or how would you start working that out? Courtney Deagon: Yeah, so the first thing that I would always encourage people to do is just to get to know your customers more. I love to tell people to be insatiably curious about their customers. When you take the time and effort to get to know people, that means a lot to them as well. That can increase your perceived value to them and their willingness to pay. Courtney Deagon: And what I often find working with my clients is usually the thing that they think people value the most isn't the thing that the customers value the most. And so they get in and they talk to them and they find out, oh, I thought this feature was the thing that they really wanted and valued. But actually it's this thing over here that I don't even talk about. It's just something that happens to be a part of my experience of working with me. Courtney Deagon: So, that's always really interesting, seeing that happen to businesses where they discover what the clients really value. When you know what your customers really value, you can then package your offerings, and price your offerings, and organise your marketing in such a way that it's so much more clear to your audience what you're selling. So much more clear to them what the value is going to be, and they're going to have a much higher willingness to pay for what you do. Josh: Cool. So I guess like you're saying, just cut through the fodder. Maybe you've looked at your client base and they happen to be full of similar sorts of people that love either going to high teas or playing a game of golf or whatever it is, it may be both. But whatever it is, if you're able to find that you're then able to gear that message and make sure that the value of this thing and the relationship they're going to be building with you, is already getting off on the right foot. As opposed to saying, I'm selling pies, and you're a pie store, saying you're selling environmental pies that are eco-friendly or vegan or something like that. It means it's not going to apply to everyone, but vegans are going to be like, "Wow, that's where I want to go." Is that what you're saying? Courtney Deagon: Absolutely. So you touched on it before in terms of the psychology. It's really important to understand that people, I feel are going to make decisions based on their perception. And perception does not map evenly to reality. You can think of the difference between an actual map like you see on Google Maps and actual reality. They're both very, very different. Courtney Deagon: Even if you try to create a reality for your marketing and advertising, the customer is still going to come up with their own perception. It's really, really important then to make sure that you understand what kind of value they're looking for, what kind of things might turn them off? Because it could be something that you're saying, it could be something in your wording, it could be something in the imagery that you're using. Courtney Deagon: But the most important thing is to take off that hat as the professional, because we know so much about our skill and about our product or service, we know so much about it, we know the impact it has on our customers and their lives. How happy it can make them, how much money it can make them and so on, our customers have no idea. All the customer knows is that they have this problem or they have this particular outcome that they really want to achieve. And what we want to do is we want to communicate the fact that we can help them meet that outcome. It's not, "Here's my product, buy my product." It's, "You have a problem. This is a solution you want. I can give you that solution. Here's how I do it." Courtney Deagon: So you start with the value first because that's what's driving the customer to you in the first place. It's not your product. There's a quote that I love that Mark Simon always says, where he says, "Nobody cares about your product." And it's a bit harsh but it's so true. No one really cares about the product. If you buy a drill, it's not because you want a drill, it's because you want a hole. Josh: Yeah, I like that one, yeah. On pricing and making sure... So let's say you've got your message, you've got that down pat, and you go, okay, I know what the product costs me. I know at least have to charge this much. And you're thinking, how high can I go? How do they perceive the value? And I guess, I'll liken it to something that I have a lot more input on actually. Courtney Deagon: Cool. Josh: So Heineken, more recently have released a zero alcohol beer. Now the zero alcohol beer, for a six pack, is going at the moment in Australia for about 16, 17 dollars for a six pack. Now, if you have a look at what a Peroni or a comparable beer would be, the beer would be maybe 20 to 21 dollars for a six pack. So call it a five dollar difference. And if you went for a less imported beer you'd be able to get it even cheaper than that. But let's work on a $16 and $20 for roundish numbers. Josh: The alcohol tax that they're paying on that $20 for that person, is getting significantly less money. The price that they're getting for that 16 it's huge. The margins are significantly more, given that they don't have to be paying any of the alcohol taxes or anything else that are going through. So, how do you think they came to the conclusion of $16? Would you say it's because people want to have that healthy, perceived look, the ability to have a beer and go for a drive possibly, or how did they find that magic number? Courtney Deagon: So I would say for a company like Heineken, they probably know a few things that I and many other pricing people don't know. They have access to the big data that I would love to get my hands on. I would love to say that Heineken took a completely value based approach, but I wouldn't say that the second. I would say that a large company like them, it would have been a mixture of prior sales data, the amount that they've been able to get for other units before. It would also depend on what geographies it was going into. They would have run some kind of research or focus groups I think. Big companies like that are huge fans of running that R&D stuff. Courtney Deagon: That's how I think they would have done it and I think that they probably would've balanced it with the profit margins that they're going for. But even then that's not really value based pricing because it's not about what they think the customer is willing to pay, it's just what they think that the customer might pay in order for them to get some kind of arbitrary target profit margin per bottle per six pack. Josh: The calculation of it, obviously as you said, they've got a lot more data than what we could even imagine. They had spreadsheets printed over the bed sheets. Courtney Deagon: Oh yeah. Josh: I thought, just from my perspective, I went, "Ah..." And just for the record, I'm all about the alcohol beer not the non alcohol beer. Courtney Deagon: Okay. Fair enough. Josh: But I could imagine the person that would be drawn to that would be, okay and no calories, or less calories. It's got about 30% less calories. So, okay, slightly healthy for me, slightly cheaper on my pocket. If you're looking at maybe millennials that might be interested in not having, because it sounds like everyone else wants to have a hangover. That's not what I'm going for. Josh: But millennials might be a bit more health conscious about what they're doing and what they're putting into their body. They might then be more geared towards that, but also they seem to be more financially incapable versus people that have a mature income and have had a career for a number of years or decades. So I think that, I don't know, I thought that that might be how they've geared into that box to say $16 would be cheaper than getting a hangover. Courtney Deagon: I would like to think they have a really smart advertising person. They're Heineken. Because one of the other things is that a 0% alcohol might also make people think that it doesn't taste as good. So that could be another reason for the slightly lower price because they want to make a distinction between the product that they're offering there and other products that do have the alcohol in them. So, that could be another thing. Maybe I'll email Heineken and see what I can do. I would not be surprised if they came back and said, "No, we can't tell you that." Josh: Because there's lots of things that you look at and you go, "Oh..." Especially when it comes to the software as a service market, which I'm sure we're very familiar with. You have a look and you think, oh okay, it's only going to cost $5 more a month for me to have a logo on a page. That's costing them nothing at all. But people are going to pay it because they want to be able to have their brand on things. If it's a form of- Courtney Deagon: They've still got the value. Josh: Exactly, and so it's very, very smart the way that that's gone. Again, the cloud, the way that the cloud has been manipulated to make everyone feel like it's going to cost them less money. It doesn't. The total cost of ownership is significantly more by a factor of 30% or more over a five year period. And so you're looking at, okay, well that is, it's costing more money but the perceived value is high and you have less infrastructure. It's interesting. How do you, short of having a huge audience to be able to test, if you're just a green field company going out, where do you start? Courtney Deagon: You can ask friends if you have honest friends, put it that way. Honest friends, ask them because they usually are pretty trustworthy. You can use companies like Conjoint.ly. That's the one that's in my mind at the moment, who do actually conduct market research. And I think with Conjoint.ly you pay per data point or something like that. Courtney Deagon: But there are companies out there where you can actually get outsourced market research. Also, even if you have a decent sized mailing list, things like surveys, talking to customers who've used your product. If you can have even 10 or 20 or more one-on-one, half hour, hour long conversations, asking really, really good questions, that will give you a huge amount of value. Courtney Deagon: But running surveys and having some statistical good questions in there next year for Conjoint.ly, questions that are specifically related to help you figure out the willingness to pay of your audience and how much they value it. But really a mixture of surveys and having those one-on-one conversations with people who have used your product, who aren't friends or your mom or your cousin and all that, is a really, really good idea. And the more people you ask, the better quality information you're going to get as well. That is a really good place to start. Josh: I'm going to ask a question. I know a lot of people are probably thinking, asking, at least it's in the back of their mind discounting. Discounting- Courtney Deagon: Uh-huh. Josh: Never discount your product, don't do it. You're discounting your product, you're discounting your business, you're discounting everything, you're going to get discounted clients. Then there's the build a discount into the product itself to sell them at a high price and then drop them down in price. Josh: And there's a whole bunch of different ideas and mentalities around the way that it works. Sell a cheap product or it will come across as a cheap product and people are going to think that you're only going to get cheap clients and... What is the best way to make sure you position yourself accordingly, or is that very industry specific? Should you write in a discounting percentage? Courtney Deagon: Yes, I would say it's not industry specific because every single industry, whether you're B2B or B2C, your customers are humans unless you're a vet, I suppose. But even then your end customer is a human. And humans perceive value in very, very similar ways. There are some psychological thinkings that are common to all humans regardless of what industry you're in. So that would be the first thing I'd say. Courtney Deagon: I generally tell people don't discount unless you know how to use a discount properly. Because most of the time companies don't use discounts very well and they use them in such a way that, like you said, it damages their branding, it damages their pricing integrity. It can make customers very unhappy. It can have the opposite effect to what you want it to have. Courtney Deagon: There's a difference as well between internal discounting and external discounting. So external discounting is where you post publicly that you're having some kind of discount sale. So say you post up on your website, we're having a 20% off sale of all of our subscription services. That's an external discount. Courtney Deagon: An internal discount might be you email your mailing list or customers who've just bought something, and you say, "Hey, thanks so much for being a loyal customer. We would love to thank you by giving you a 5% discount off this product or this service." Or something like that. So it's internal. It's limited to a select number of people who may have bought with you before, they may be leads and you're trying to generate a deeper relationship with them. But then again, I would also mark that with an asterisk of, it really depends on what kind of perception you want to create for your brand and what position you want your brand to have. Courtney Deagon: If you want to be a high end, high ticket service or company, discounting might not be the way to go, and I would use different wording like adjustment. So, as an example, if I'm constructing a proposal for someone and they have a very, very limited budget, I'll say, "That's okay. Let me know what your parameters are and I'm happy to do an adjusted proposal for you." So it's not really discounted, but I'm using different language to indicate that I'm not a company who discounts. I'm a company who will make adjustments and change what I'm offering so that I'm giving you value, and then we can come up with a price that's fair. Josh: Okay. So if you were to be looking to adjust the price, if you adjust your whole system, you've changed around from trading time for money to trading value. Okay. Courtney Deagon: Mm-hmm. Josh: And you're going through this transition, you're trying to do this for your business and it doesn't matter, I guess, if you're a plumber or you're selling cakes. Whatever the process is, if you're going through that and you've got people that are used to the previous system, how do you go about changing that for them and having them introduced to that if they're already very comfortable with the previous system? Courtney Deagon: Yeah, so every transformation starts with language. I coach people on being able to change their language around the way that they talk about their business, the way they talk about their business model, their marketing. Everything, as well as pricing as well, and how they think about it. And then as they start to tell their customers about, "Hey, our business is changing. We're doing these great things. It's really exciting." You want to talk about it in a way that you're being transparent about how it's going to benefit them, and be really clear about what the potential changes are. Courtney Deagon: When you're bringing in things like guarantees at the same time, more transparency and less risk for the customer, it doesn't become a scary change anymore. It becomes, oh my gosh, they're transforming their business into something that's going to be better for me as well as better for them. Here are all the things I'm now going to get from that. I'm going to have less risks. I'm going to have value guarantee of price, and guarantee of other things like that. Courtney Deagon: And it also teaches them what to expect from you, as well. And it shows them that you're dedicated to having a better business so that you can give them a better experience. And that just increases the perceived value even more. Josh: Right. I know that we went through a transition a number of years ago where we were charging a set price per computer, a set price per server. And then we thought, let's change this model and just charge a set price per staff member. And it makes it simple for everyone. Like, okay [crosstalk 00:15:47]. Courtney Deagon: Absolutely. Josh: Straight, easy. Then if a guy came, okay, we're getting another server. That's going to cost this much more. So that's another overhead. It's an ongoing thing. If they're getting to a spot that they need three or four servers or something like that, they've also increased their staff head count. And so it makes it nice and simple. Courtney Deagon: Absolutely. Josh: So there's a bit of psychology that I've read on the number seven. Have you heard about this stuff? Why do you want to have a 9997 drive away or something like that. What's up with that? Why do people want to end in sevens? Courtney Deagon: So I mentioned that Mark Simon before. He wrote a thesis on price endings. And you can probably google that and find it and read it if you wanted to. When you think about our brain, we're being bombarded by information all the time, right? I'm looking at you, but I can also see in my periphery the window, and there's some things over there and my phone's there. And there's a lot of information coming in at my brain at the same time, right? Josh: Yeah.

Running the Numbers With Drue from 4Front Josh: Good day everyone out there in podcast world. We've got a special guest here, Drue, and he does some pretty cool stuff. And actually, you know what? I'm going to get you to tell me what you do, the voodoo that you do, and how that's impacting businesses around Southeast Queensland? Get more tips from Drue Schofield at dorksdelivered.com.au Drue: Yeah, thanks Josh. Nice intro. I don't know that we're that exciting. Josh: Aww, come on. Drue: But that was a very exciting introduction. We're accountants. Look, no, all jokes aside, we think we're quite personable people. Yeah, we're accountants. We're a full-service accounting and advisory taxation business or service. We deal mainly in the small to medium business space. We do self-managed super fund administration and advisory with our SMSF clients, whether they are still working, building businesses, contributing to super or they're self-funded retirees, and we also do quite a bit of work with property investors and developers, making sure they're structured well and giving them advice along the way, whilst being in a position to help our clients leverage our network. I spend a lot of time, personally, networking with allied professionals and pretty much anyone. I just like to be a conduit for business and people that are doing things and have ambition, and if I can connect you, or one of my clients, or someone with someone else that they need to talk to, to solve their problem, then that makes me really happy. Josh: Cool. Okay. So I guess you covered a couple of things there that spiked my interest. One of them was the podcast worldwide audience, in Australia, we call a small to medium business, I would have said, five to 200 employees. Yeah? Would you agree? About that? Drue: Yeah, about that. Yeah. Josh: Yeah. Where in America, anything less than 200 is small, it's backyard mom and dad shop, isn't it? Drue: Yeah, they seem to have a different view on business over there. Unless you're over 250 employees or whatever, they don't really even count. Josh: A blimp. Nothing. Drue: To a degree. I mean, I had some association with businesses and professionals over there when clients needed to utilise services in the U.S. and Europe as well. But yeah, certainly, everything's bigger and better in America. Sometimes. Josh: So one of the things that I've noticed when I've been talking with you versus other accountants, in bits and pieces that we've spoken with is, you seem down to earth, to the point, and humanable. Drue: Oh, thanks. Josh: If that makes sense. Drue: Yeah, yeah. Josh: Less robotic. Drue: Yeah, yeah. Look, accountants have a bad stereotype. Look, I like to think I'm the new wave or part of the new wave or the new age of accountants. Josh: I'm not helping the IT look! Drue: No, you look very trendy, except for the glasses that have no lenses by the way, for people out there. But no, they look really good. I was offered to wear some, but I chose not to. I'm a contact lens wearer, anyway. Drue: Look, we are. We're approachable. I don't know if fun loving is the right word, but we enjoy what we do. That said, we're serious. We give serious advice and sophisticated advice to people when they need it. We're succinct, we're to the point, we remove jargon. If a client doesn't understand what we're doing, we just go over it again and again until they do. Hopefully, not too many times, and usually not too many times. We usually get it on the first or second go, but we're not here to preach to people, we're not here to talk down to people, we're here to educate people. And if clients don't understand what they're doing and getting themselves into, you can bet your bottom dollar, that's where there's going to be problems, so we want to avoid that at all costs. We have those full and frank conversations without fear or favour. The clients know what they're doing, why they want to do it. We get a good understanding of that, and then we give the advice tailored to that particular situation. Josh: I think you listed four F's then. And I guess if everything's going right, you don't hear a fifth one. Drue: No, that's right. We won't talk about the fifth one. There's enough doom and gloom out there today and we don't need to feed any more panic or doom and gloom, I don't think. Josh: Not at all. So I can see a lot of similarities in what you guys do and what we do. We try to simplify technical problems. We try to make sure that people are able to understand and assimilate with what their end goal is. And we use technology as the fulcrum to achieve that. And in a non technical, gobbledygook, terahertz and gigaflops type words, we try and make sure it's all human understandable, readable stuff. It doesn't matter if you're a mechanic or a doctor or whatever it is, or anything in between, you're able to work out. You know there's a problem, we can see that there's a solution, and we use, as I said, technology for that. Josh: So one of the things, I know, when I first started out in business, was I was scared shitless about doing the accounting thing and doing it wrong. So I went and bought a bunch of a bunch of books and got any of the different government books that I could get on GST, and I don't know if you've ever had the opportunity to read those, their ... Drue: I've read them all. Josh: They're exciting, aren't they? Drue: No, they're not. Josh: No they're not. So I'm reading all this stuff, and at that stage I was at uni reading all these books on GST and BAS, and everything else, when I'm on the train to uni. It wasn't fun and it didn't make me feel any better off, because I guess it's kind of like me trying to pretend I'm a doctor or pretend I'm a mechanic, when I'm not. Drue: Sometimes it's good to just eat the sausage, Josh, and not know what gone into it. Josh: Exactly. I agree. Drue: If you use that as an analogy. Not that we don't explain what goes into it. Josh: I like that. That's good. I've always said, "You can teach a man to fish and he'll have food for life, but some people just don't like fishing." Drue: That's right. Josh: They just don't. Drue: Some people don't like fish either. Josh: Exactly. So that's getting a professional to do the voodoo that they do, is better than you trying to do everything and wear another hat. Drue: Yeah, it's crucial. I can't underline, underscore, bold, italic, asterisk enough that it's crucial to get really good advice. Whether you're just starting out in business, or starting out doing a development, or considering setting up a self-managed super fund, or whatever the case may be. Or you've been in business for two, three years and things are going well, or you're an established business, I can't stress enough how important it is to get accurate, timely advice, from someone that wants to be a key partner in your business. I mean that's our tagline. "Your key partner in business," that's who we aim to be. I believe we achieve that all the time with all of our clients. We want to see businesses survive and thrive, and grow and flourish, and do really well. And if we can be a part of that journey and connect them to good people and give good advice, then again, as I said before, that makes us really happy. Josh: Cool, cool, cool. And I think that's important there. Key. Good advice. And knowing what's out there, one of the things that I found out about years into business, was the R&D grants in bits and pieces. Drue: Yeah, sure. Josh: Do you guys work with those? Drue: We do a little bit in that space. Those things become more technical and more specialised. What I'd rather do more so than try to do it, is we've got people we work with, people we will then refer our clients to that are specialists in that area. And then I guess that's another thing that is a benefit of myself and 4Front Accountants. If we don't know something, we're not afraid to put our hand up and say, "Hey, we've got a rough idea about this, we know enough to be dangerous, but it's now time to go and talk to a professional." Josh: Yep. Drue: And the other thing we'll do there in that situation, is rather than just push the boat out and say, "See you later, hopefully, you hit land," we'll make the connection with that person, and if needs be, we'll attend the meeting and facilitate the process. So again, we want to be your key partner, our client's key partner in business. We'll really hold their hand through that process. Drue: And R&D is a really good example. Whilst we know enough about it, again, to be dangerous and how it all comes together, there's specialists that we work with and that's all they do. R&D in grant work. So R&D is research and development. Sorry, I'm using an acronym and I should explain it. Josh: I should have as well. Drue: That's all right. Not a problem. It's easy when you're a professional and you're working with ABCs and one, two, threes, and EFDs, and ATOs, and ELDs, to just rattle things off. But yeah, R&D, research and development. And whilst I'm there, a little plug for the current government and preceding governments, that someone had the foresight to bring that sort of thing in, because that's helped a lot of our clients tremendously. And I'm not even joking, millions of dollars. Josh: Absolutely. It was a game changer for us. Drue: In real cash. Josh: We've already been developing products, already been developing integrations into LinkedIn that can speed up the process to find new clients. We've developed these different processes within businesses to be able to integrate phones in bits and pieces, and we were already doing all this stuff, and then someone told me about it and I went, "Oh shit, this exists? This is a thing? Why isn't this spoken about more?" Drue: It's an often overlooked or ill-considered thing, it feels like the ATO and the government's always here to do things to you, but when you're a small business person, within reason, it does do things for you as well. I mean, we'll probably touch on it later, but the government's just neutered some stimulus package that's aimed mainly at business and it's actually really good, and it should get things going and hopefully quell some of the fear and panic out there that business owners have. God, I've had three phone calls today and two emails last night about it already. So we're actually sending out a communication and a newsletter form that summaries things clearly, succinctly, no jargon, so that clients have one source. So 4Front Accountants clients have one source to go to, look at, and say, "Okay, great, now I understand it." And we'll get more phone calls and that's fine, we'll explain it. Drue: But going back to what I was talking about, things like the R&D concessions and grants, and those sorts of things, governments are there to do things for business, not always to business. Josh: Yeah. And that's something that I was a big mindset shift that I had around 2016, 2015, 2016, when I started going for the R&D concession. I didn't know it existed, already been in business at that stage since 2007, so I'd been around for long enough that I should have heard something out there, but I hadn't. That was kind of a, "Oh I mean all this wasted money," but I went, "Well, I'm not going out of business." All this potential. And it's only one of the things that I've seen out there. Like there's advantages to employing, there's digital business grants and bits and pieces out there. There's a whole bunch of different things where the government is giving out a whole bunch of money. Josh: There was a programe which I was involved with a little while ago that would subsidise the hourly rates of IT staff, and all sorts of things like that. And I just went, "Wow, this is this cool stuff. How didn't I know about this?" And it's just everyone has that predefined thought, belief system that they're out there to take and not give. Drue: Look, it's a symptom that we see with clients all the time. They're too busy doing it, doing it, doing it. They're stuck working in their business and not on it. And that's the sort of focus that we try to shift, and a mindset we try to change with clients that, "Hey, you need to work on your business and not in it." We've got the tools, the expertise, and the advice and products to actually help clients work more on their business and not in it. And things like that come up all the time. Drue: Now it's quite possible that your accountant that you're working with at the time knew about it and didn't tell you or may not have known about it at all. But I can assure people listening that at 4Front Accountants, there are the sorts of things that we've got a finger on the pulse with. Again, we're not experts, we don't understand those things, but we're certainly aware of them. We find out enough about it. I certainly do read about it, and I know my people at 4Front Accountants do as well. We read about it enough and know enough about it to be dangerous, and then to know who to hand that on to, so that we can explain that situation to that particular expert, and then guide our client in the right path, with the right person, so that they get the result that they want. Josh: And that's what you want to get with anyone in the professional services industry. You don't necessarily want them to be the one stop shop. You want to them to know the shops you can go to Drue: You can't be all things to all people. And when you do, you will fail, immediately. Josh: Yep. Drue: And you shouldn't be. I mean, there's specialists in every field. I mean if you've got a problem with your knee, you might start at the GP, but you'll soon be referred to, potentially, an orthopedic surgeon. The GP isn't going to be there, but he's developed a relationship with that person to know that's the best orthopedic surgeon for your particular problem. I mean, we're the same. We're not solicitors, we're not finance brokers, we're not financial advisors yet. We're not R&D grant specialists or whatever the case might be, but we've got a really good network and we spend a lot of time building relationships with the people that will help our clients, so that we can continually prove our mantra or our motto, tagline, that we are your key partner in business. Josh: That's really important. Just knowing that you've got that one point of contact and that- Drue: It's terrific when people come to you and they say, "Drue, I need this," or my business partner, Carmine Decorso, they might go to Carmine and say, "Hey Carmine, we need this," and we'd say, "Yep, sure. We know someone. We'll give them a call now. We'll connect you. If you want us to come to the meeting, we can do that as well." Josh: Yep. So where would you say you sit with businesses? Do you start at anything from bookkeepers and all the way up, like a CFO type level? Drue: Yeah, we do a lot, I mean I guess our core competency is compliance work. When people think of accountants, they think of people that will do financial statements and tax returns to a solid, accurate level. They'll complete those income tax returns to a point where they're not paying a dollar more or less tax than they should. And if they're lucky, they might get a little bit of business advice. Drue: Now, we kind of turn that on its head a little bit, insofar that we recognise and realise the compliance is important, and certainly we feel our clients don't pay a dollar more or less tax than they should. And we work really hard to make sure that things are done properly, correctly, and legally. You certainly don't want to do anything that's illegal, nor do we. Where our point difference is, we do sort of act in that external CFO type arrangement, where we like to work with our clients more often than once or twice a year. We do that through something we've termed our Board of Advice programe, where we sit down with our clients quarterly, and I like to call them 90 day success cycles, which I believe is a McKinsey & Co term, the management consultants. So again, shows you the literature that people at 4Front Accountants are reading. We're not just reading the boring textbooks. Whilst they are important, they're not terribly exciting, but we've got to go through them. I'm more interested in things that are going to help our business clients survive, grow, and thrive. But yeah, we run our Board of Advice program with most of our business clients or as many as we can. They see a lot of value in that. Drue: So what is the Board of Advice program? As I alluded to, we work in quarterly cycles with our clients. We run to an agenda. We focus on the financial performance of the business and we do some business analysis around that on quarterly numbers, usually comparing the current quarter to the same quarter this time last year. And then the December quarter that we've just finished with our Board of Advice clients now, it's really interesting, because you've got six months of data this year, and you've got six months of data from the previous year, so you can really have a really good snapshot of where the business is at. Sometimes just comparing this quarter this year to this quarter last year isn't enough. Likewise, comparing the 2019 year, we've just finished it, to the 2018 year, doesn't really tell you a lot. It's a little bit too far in the past. I always tease clients that we're not here to write history with them, we're here to make history, and that's what we really try to do. Josh: I guess one of the things that I've always thought is, "Man, okay, you'll have a good quarter, you have an awesome quarter, and then you'll have a bad quarter." And when you've been in business long enough, they can't all be home runs, can they? Drue: Sadly, not. Josh: No. Well I think you can't enjoy the good without the bad, so it really lets you appreciate the good. Drue: Your sweet and savoury. Josh: Yeah, that's right. So I think and I see a lot of people around the place that are, "Oh my goodness, you wouldn't believe what happened, the line was so long at the shops." Well, there's kids starving in Africa and you're worried about the line at the shops. Drue: They're probably buying toilet paper. Josh: That's exactly right. So you have a look at these things and you think, "Okay, you need to get a bit of reality check." And I think the best thing to do is to have the bad times so that you can appreciate the good times. And not necessarily, I'm not wishing anything upon anyone that complains about mundane and first world problems, but yeah, you definitely need to have the bad ones. But if you have a bad one, sometimes that could be something that's spread further than just your business, and a lot of people are worried about a recession and things. Nevertheless, the data that you have, that you can help businesses out with, you mentioned forecasting. Are you able to see trends across the businesses that you work with? Drue: Absolutely. We see stuff all the time. Josh: So if someone said, "Oh, I've had a bad quarter," and you go, "Look, I understand. We've got five other businesses that are in the same sector as you that are also feeling the pressure." Is that something- Drue: Yeah, it is. I mean, we're growing, we're growing all the time. And we want to keep growing. We've got fairly big aspirations as to where 4Front Accountants will land in my lifetime as a business, so the more clients we have, the more data we have. Now, obviously everything's confidential so we don't share other people's information, but we can talk about things generally. Drue: So we're seeing that with particular trade's clients, or we're seeing that with medical professional clients, or we're seeing that with Josh: Retails. Drue: Clients in, yeah, retail, whatever the case may be. You get a general feel, you work with enough clients, you just end up with, as an accounting firm, you end up with a natural cluster, because if you've got an accounting business like we do, you're dealing with a lot of different businesses all the time, and we're almost solely business these days, which is the path we want to keep going on. So you see little clusters. Drue: It's really important, though, to not have a five week view of things. You need to have a quarterly, that 90 day success cycle view of things, or that six monthly, one year, three years, five years. Now, the further you stretch out, the harder it is to plan. Josh: Otherwise, it gets a bit wonky, but at least you're walking it. Drue: You can, but you've got to have a plan. You've got to have a plan. So one of the things that's really important, I think, for clients is to do some forecasting, and then you give yourself some measurements or some numbers to measure your current performance against. Like you said, Josh, you're going to have bad quarters, and that's just how things are. It might be because of seasonality, it might be because there's a hereto incurable virus sweeping across the world, who knows? But it's important to take a longer term view of things and look at your business and say, "Okay, is there anything that's fundamentally wrong with the business now?" Most business people will have a gut feeling, that's why they are entrepreneurs and that's why they are business people, they tend to go with their gut. Perhaps more. It's sort of an intuitive thing, but I think probably harking right back to the advice piece I was talking about before, you can't underestimate the power and the value of good, succinct, solid, financial advice, sitting down with your accountant or your advisor. We're becoming more advisors than accountants these days because of the number of clients that are starting to take up our Board of Advice program. Drue: And if you do it in a logical, methodical way, with some structure, I mean all our Board of Advice program meetings that we have each quarter run to an agenda. We talk about the financial analysis of the business, sure, but there are other things that come up as well. They become a bit open slather, we like to look at whatever clients are comfortable talking about, and that sway into personal issues as well, which means you've got to have a whole subset of other networks available to you. That might be psychologists and psychiatrists or other healthcare professional people. Josh: You're offering counselling, nearly. Drue: Well not quite. Josh: You're not wanting to but Drue: Well, look, unless you're in business, you really don't understand and appreciate how much it really becomes part of your psyche, and it becomes your identity. Josh: Absolutely. Drue: And we've had clients, unfortunately, that have had businesses go under, where we haven't been appointed as advisors quick enough, and we haven't been able to make changes early enough. And it's really sad. And sometimes these aren't young people, sometimes these are well established people in their 30's or 40's or 50's where industries have changed and they've been left behind. And that's really, really sad. Drue: Now in some instances, there's probably not much you can do, but I think if you had the chance to get to them early, maybe run this Board of Advice program that's quite structured, which is almost like a mini board of directors, the way we run it, given its got an agenda, and it really does add a bit of corporate governance and accountability, which is important. It's something that I think is lacking more generally in the small business world. People sort of get their hammer and level, and off they go, and they're a builder, or they take their- Josh: All the cowboys out there. They try their best- Drue: Yeah, they are. I guess there are Cowboys out there and they do try their best, but they may not have appreciated the advice that they could get off a good accountant and business advisor. And I like to think that if our clients, and future clients, start to work with us closer with this Board of Advice program, the amount of accountability adds is tremendous. And it's going to get good results, because we're spending that time to sit with our clients and we're their professional sounding board. They can throw anything they like at us. We'll have our own insights and our own observations, which we can give advice around and make changes. And I've done that with clients recently. Drue: I had a plumbing client recently that is new to the firm, and he reported a $20,000 loss last year, and he couldn't work out why. I sat down with- Josh: I bet he pulled that coin from out of his house or something like that, or a personal asset, or that's, I guess, advice that you'd be giving. Drue: Yeah, so I've sat down with him, looked at the numbers, and he said, "Okay, well there's a $20,000 loss here." Yeah. And the businesses is now in lost territory again for the last two quarters. On a quick analysis, I've worked out that his GP, his gross profit line is wrong. So he didn't have the right numbers in there. Once I put the right numbers in there, whilst it was still bad, it made the data more realistic, and it told a better story. Josh: So gutter in, gutter out. Drue: That's right. So the issue in this particular, and this is a real life example here, in this particular client situation, he was having an over reliance on subcontractors and labour hire, and we feel he wasn't marking up the materials he was buying enough. So we did just a quick little "for example" calculation of if he replaced this person with this person and this with that and perhaps got rid of some of the labour hire and some of subcontractor at work, and replace that with a more permanent workforce, and then changed the markup he was putting on the cost of sales, we were able to turn it into an $86,000 profit. Josh: Yep. Huge. Drue: Massive turnaround. That's a $106,000 turn around. Now it's easy to say, "Oh yeah, that's great, Drue, but that's all theory. You may not get that immediately." But if you change your mindset, and you're working with your advisor or your accountant each quarter, and you're looking at those things and making that the most important thing, I always say that which is measured is that which is achieved, you're going to get somewhere near it. You might not get to the $86,000 profit the first year, but gosh, you might get $20,000 profit or $30,000. Going to be better than a $20,000 loss, surely. Josh: You can't turn a ship on a dime. Drue: No. Josh: It takes time. Drue: It takes time. And I guess the Board of Advice programe we're running, it's really helping clients to see the power of accountability and meeting and taking advice and acting on it. Josh: I agree. It's something that people need to have. And this is something ... I was talking to someone else earlier on today- Drue: And if you haven't worked out, I'm pretty passionate about it. Josh: I've noticed. Yeah, yeah. Drue: Well, I want to see people do well. I mean my parents were small business owners and- Josh: Yeah, what did they do? Drue: Builder. Dad's a builder. Had some really good success over the years, but I think he could have done better if he'd had, perhaps better advice, more frequently. And I really think any business, whether you're really successful or you're moderately successful or you're doing okay, will benefit from better quality advice more frequently. Josh: Well, I found, when I first started out in business, my uncle at a company that he was running for many years, and engineers or teachers is pretty much everyone else. So I always thought you can do anything you put your mind to, but that was misinterpreted as you do everything that you can and you put your mind to. And so that then meant when I became a business, started, I'll put in my prepubescent voice, "Let's start a business. I'm really excited to see where this goes." And then I went, "Shit, there's a lot to do." And so I had to become the marketer, the salesperson, the manager, the entrepreneur. Drue: Chief cook and bottle washer. Josh: Exactly. Exactly. All and everything of the above. So I slowly, slowly worked out that this isn't for me. And then went, "Let's stop this and start employing the right people and having the right people do what they enjoy doing," and do what brings you the money in. So that was a great shift and I've never looked back. Having the right people there to give you the advice though, and make sure you are making the right decisions is important. Drue: I think it's critical. It's critical to the success of success or failure of a particular business or enterprise. It just really is. Josh: It doesn't matter the size of your business either. I think it's critical straightaway. We go into people's networks a lot and we see problems and problems and we go, "Oh, why is it set up like that?" Or, "Why is it done like that?" And it's just because the advice that they were given was they thought they know, liked, and trusted that person, trusted the advice, and it was just poor advice. And so for all of our clients that we work with, we say, "Look, we want you, every six months or however often you feel necessary, get another IT company in here and see if we're doing the best job for you." And that gives them the full input and knowledge that we're fully transparent, we're very confident in what we're doing, and we know we're doing right for businesses. Drue: The fact that you're prepared to frank your ability with that, I'd imagine no clients do that, because they know that you back yourself. Josh: Very few. And one of them said, "Oh, who would you suggest?" And I said, "That kind of takes away from the point of it, doesn't it?" Drue: Yeah, that's not independent. If you're suggesting someone, it's not really independent. Josh: Any professional services that they have that they're employing in their business, whether it be financial advisors, accountants, solicitors, IT people, anyone that is doing something that you can't touch and feel and know that the product is good and the outcome is good. Drue: Intangible. Josh: Yeah, intangible products or intangible services, you need to be able to have someone go in there and make sure that Oz behind the curtain is pulling the right strings and doing the right thing for you. Josh: So we had someone come to us about a month ago and they were asking us if we could help them out with some of their LinkedIn marketing stuff. And I said, "Yeah, we can definitely do that. We can go through the process and do the voodoo that we do." And I bought the pricing, he goes, "Oh. Okay, we'll have a think about it." And I thought, "Oh, 'have a think about it' means you're probably going to check out someone else. That doesn't matter. Josh: Anyway, he called us back a month later. So just the Monday just gone. And said, "Josh, I need you to review what's going on with my LinkedIn." I had a look and he went with this company to go through and market him on LinkedIn. And I thought, "All right." And I had a look and they were doing nothing. They bought a $50 product. They took his scripts, and they were using this $50 product to automate the messages that were being sent out, and then charging them $1,500 a month to try and make new connections on LinkedIn. And I said, "You are absolutely been being taken for a run mate." I said, "This is terrible." I said, "The product they're using is this ... " and pointed it out here. And I said, "This is what they're using. It's $50." And that's $50 U.S. I said, "But that's $50. And then you've shown me what you've given me and all of this information, they've just entered that, copied it out of your document into these fields. Then they've just set the days of when they're going to send these messages to people." I said, This is terrible. You're really spending $1,500?" He goes, "I feel sick." I said, "Maybe $500 if they're managing everything and they're doing a phone call." For what they're doing, I said, "They're on selling a product with 30 times mark up, 3000% mark up." I'm like, "That's ridiculous." Drue: Vaporware. Josh: Yeah. And anyway, what I'm getting at is it's always important to have someone there check out what's going on. I myself have had only a couple of bookkeepers over the 13 years we've been in business, and when I got the second bookkeeper, she went, "Oh man, look what the first bookkeeper's been doing," and I thought, "Oh, well that's probably what you're going to say anyway," but it's good just to have people double check, just to make sure that your work is aligned. Drue: Yeah. It can't hurt. Josh: Right. What's the hurt in it? Nothing, yeah. Drue: Look, very rarely do we have clients do that, because they're confident in what we do and how we do it. Now, I will say often I have meetings with prospective clients. It probably starts out as a second opinion meeting, but once I start talking about what we're going to do and demonstrate that, it soon becomes a first opinion meeting, because they've become clients, which is nice. Josh: Yeah. But that's what you want. Drue: Absolutely. Josh: And that just shows when you think, obviously without knowing the relationship- Drue: And it doesn't mean their advisors aren't good, it just means they're not as good as us. Josh: Yeah. Not on the ball enough or not keeping in contact enough. And that's imperative, like relationships. We're all about automation and everything that we produce is all around automation and uptime for businesses, but we'd never suggest to automate the human touch. Now we're sitting here having a podcast together, doing an interview together. Drue: In the same room. Josh: In the same room. Drue: As humans. Josh: We can high five. Drue: Yep. Josh: That was terrible, let's try one that makes a noise. There we go. And when you look at, we could have done this over Zoom, we could have used technology, we could have done all these other different things, but that's a start and end, and then there's nothing there. And I think the world is becoming too digitised in ways that they should be humanised. Drue: Yeah. It's not as organic. Our Board of Advice meetings, we have a handful, occasionally, that are done on a Zoom or a Skype call, but for the most part, I like to do them face to face, either in our office or in our boardroom, which is all kitted out and nice and comfortable and easy to have the meetings there, or at the client's premises, more than happy to do that. But I prefer and okay, yeah, it would be quicker, it would save me half an hour, 45 minutes each way in a car. It would save the client half an hour, 45 minutes each way in the car. So okay, you'd pick up an hour, an hour and a half. Big deal. In the overall scheme of things, more than happy to go to a client's premises and meet with them or their home, if that's where they're comfortable doing it. I don't mind. Drue: But the important thing is they're in the flesh, eyeballing each other. It's seeing body language, seeing expression. Josh: You can feel the emotion. Drue: And they can see, I hope, sometimes our passion or my passion for what I'm trying to do and where I'm trying to help them get with their business. And I can see their passion or their frustration or their concern or fear or panic or jubilation that they've .... We've had an action list that we set last time and they've done it all and they'll say, "See Drue, I did it all. You didn't think I would, did you?" I'm like, "No, no, I never said that." Or where the labour a point, they look at something and they say, "Well look, we didn't get this action point and here's why." And we can sit there and we can talk about it. I don't think we will ever, ever technologize, digitise, or supersede, the human to human interaction. Drue: No. Josh: If we did, the UN would be done completely via video link, and there would be no need for everyone to fly into Brussels or wherever they do, and have a face to face meeting. Drue: No G20s, none of that stuff. Josh: It'll be all gone. Drue: If you think about bigger businesses with business deals, they still fly to Japan or to China or to the U.S. or to London, wherever it is, and they sit down. They might break bread and have a meal together, but they sit in the room and they sign the papers. And there's no need to do that usually, but there's a real human need or craving to be in the company of other human beings. Josh: There's something there that you can't feel otherwise. Drue: Yeah. Josh: When you do it over the phone, you can hear tonalities in voices, but you can't really feel the impact of that person being there. It generally doesn't go longer than the, "Okay. We've started, we've had a small amount of banter. We've spoken about it. We've concluded. We've said bye." There's not that, let's get to know the real you moments that you get when you talk and catch up with people. Drue: It's like a 5D factor, I think, I call it. So not 3D because 3D's easy on the video, and we all know about 4D now, but 5D's you're in their presence, without trying to get too spiritual, you can feel their being. And it's really good. And that's what we want with our clients. We want them to see our passion and feel our passion, and we like to see theirs and feel their passion for their business as well, because that's their livelihood, that's their thing. And as I said, toward the start, that's their identity sometimes. So they're really proud of that and we want to bask in that pride as well. Josh: Well, I guess we've been going through a few bits and pieces here, and I'd like to finish up and ask how would people go about contacting you and make sure that their business is going in the right direction and they're not freaking out, their numbers are doing things wrong. How can they get that second opinion that might turn into the first opinion? Drue: Look, the best way is to send me an email or give me a call. If you go to 4Front.net dot.as, or to Drue, and that's D-R-U-E.schofield@4front.net.au, or find me on LinkedIn. More than happy to have a conversation, cost and obligation free. We can sit down, we can talk about what you're doing, how you're doing it, what your expectations are, where you think there might be some potential gaps in the advice you're getting now, and we can give you the cut of edge, and then you can see whether you think that's something that appeals to you and that you might see value in. So yeah. Josh: A yachting term, I love that. I love that. I'm a bit of a keen yachtie myself. Is there any questions that you'd like me to ask or that you'd like to ask of me? Drue: No, I think we've covered some great ground there. Don't ask me to repeat all that, because I don't necessarily know what I said, but I just hope that people listening can get a good feel and a good sense for the passion that we have. Yes, we're accountants, and we've got a bad stereotype of being boring and maybe a bit mundane, but I hope, Josh can attest to me not being like that. Josh: Absolutely. No, no, no, not at all. I'd say you'd go and have a beer with me if I offered it after the podcast. Drue: Absolutely. Or two. Josh: Perfect, it's done. Or two. Drue: But yeah, just to finish up, we are passionate about being your key partner in business. Josh: That definitely sounds like you're on a really good business and its got legs and it's going places. I'd like to ask anyone out there, if you have enjoyed this episode, to make sure to jump across to iTunes, leave us a review, give us some love, and make sure to stay good. Drue: Thanks Josh.  

Finance Alternatives with Paul Boyd-Skinner Josh: Everyone out there in podcast land, we've got a great guest for you today. We've got Paul here from NoBNK, and he is a bit of a wizard when it comes to looking at a different way that you can do finance. This is especially critical in today's financial climate. So Paul, tell me a bit about what it is that you do with NoBNK. Learn more about finance alternatives at dorksdelivered.com.au Paul: So NoBNK is predominantly a non-bank business and commercial finance solutionist. I've been involved in nonbank lending for around about 16 years. So I've done all sorts of finance. I've done everything from home loans to commercial development, construction equipment, finance, factoring, all that sort of thing. And I'm proud to say that I've never ever put anybody in a loan with the bank.  Josh: High five! Paul: Look, you know, my adversity towards banks. Back in the 80s, back in the day when I got my first home, which was in late 1988, 89. You know we will be excited about getting our first home and interest rates at that time were around about 12% when we went and got our loan. The way it sort of worked back then was you go to the bank. And you're begged for a loan and they'd say, ‘Yes, yes, we'll give you a loan.’ And it was usually, you know, like about 70% or something that they give you, but they will do on a bit of a special, at the time for first home buyers where they give you 100% at interest only. We were living in a caravan when we first got married, so that was a pretty good option to get our own homes.  Josh: Absolutely! And upgrading it’s pretty low friction option, I guess. Paul: The only thing was the in-laws had to go as guarantors. So I now know that today is like a parental guarantor. Really wasn't heard of back then. So it was a little bit of a product for first home buyers. So we did that. We jumped in and we got the house and everything was going along nicely. And then we had to have the recession that we had to have. And our interest rates went from 12% to a 7%, 8.5% in the space of about six months. And just to give you an idea, the loan was $105,000. My repayment was $1,560 a month. Yep. And I was on $33,000 a year. So when you take tax out, 80% of my income was going towards paying my mortgage.  Josh: Yeah. Far out.  Paul: And it wasn't knocking 1 cent off it. Josh: Yeah. Just sitting there as interest only. And that is a scary spot to be in, because you're not sure if it's going to go up or down or left or right, or what it's going to do. Somersaults.  Paul: That happened with a lot of first home buyers over the years. Eventually, you know, it just got too heavy. I had to do up to 30 hours a week overtime to make ends meet, I was a fitter-machiner at the time,and you know, we ended up losing it. It's just the way it was. There were a lot of people losing their properties.  Josh: You weren't the anomaly. I don't think so. Paul: I sort of didn't understand what happened to me. I didn't like the banks at all when I worked it out. I've done a lot of study on the banks since then, or the banking system, and, you know, my thoughts on the global financial system is, I believe it's a world's biggest Ponzi scam. I've been open and honest about this for quite a long time, about how I feel about the banking system and I'm a bit like the disruptor.. I'm all about wanting to make the change so that it's a benefit for us, not so much just for them.  Josh: Yeah, well, I guess like I've done a bit of research into things such as the fractional reserve system and how that works. Paul: Does it work?  Josh: Well, how it works doesn't mean it works. No, you're exactly right. It's not a very good system, which is based on, now, nothing really. It's just based on numbers in a computer. It's not weighted against any real thing of intrinsic value. Paul: Well, have a think about that. So what a lot of people don't understand is that when you deposit money into a bank, you're actually lending them that money. It's a loan. You become an unsecured creditor, yet there is no security for that loan to that bank.  Josh: Yep.  Paul: It's a promise that they give you. We'll promise that we'll give you your money back.  Josh: After changing you bank fees or having it in there. Paul: Well, what a great deal for them, isn't it? They say, ‘Joshua, can you lend me your $100,000?’ Josh: Yeah, no problem at all.  Paul: Now would you want to say, ‘Oh, I need a contract with that?’  Josh: Well, normally you would. Yeah. You hope so. Paul: No. So what's going to happen, Joshua, on the bank is you're going to lend me $100,000. You're the bank, though. Not as a contract, but I do promise that I'll give you your money back and I'll dictate the terms. Right? So you might want 10% interest, but I'm happy to give you 1 ½. And you'll say, ‘Yep, I'm happy to do that.’  That's really what you've done when you put money in the bank, and just remember that one critical part. You're an unsecured creditor. Meaning that secure creditors, in the event of the bank collapse or whatever, secured credit is paid first and then unsecured credits. Josh: Yup. So in the situation where shit hits the fan hypothetically, we can all feel the recession, we can all hear it being spoken about, we can also feel some pressures around the place. If shit hits the fan and everyone starts frantically pulling money out of the bank, they've already planned for that, and that's what's been going through at the moment. Am I right?  Paul: Yeah, correct.  Josh: Tell me a bit about that for our listeners. Paul: Well, long story short is that there's three generations of savers, so you've got you've got your builders, you've got your boomers, and then you've got generation X, which is me. We've all been bought up as a generation of ‘get yourself a good job, save for retirement.’ It was all about saving money. Okay. The other thing too is that we had our children quite young, so you know, I've been married 31 years and I've got married to my wife she was 19, and I was 23. And, we had our children when she was 21. So we had our kids young, and if you think about my father, he was one of 17 children, so they had big families. So they were called boomers, you know. Josh: Huge families, but small houses.  Paul: Can you imagine having 17 children? And the house, there were three bedrooms, one bathroom, right?  Josh: One bathroom, 17 people. 17 children! 19 people. Paul: It's 28 years from youngest to oldest. You know what I mean? Like it's just a constant flow of, you know, at least seven, eight, nine people in a 3-bedroom house.  Josh: Should have bought a TV, so that there's something else to do.  Paul: Didn’t have TV back in the day, so what they did was they went out into the world and started the businesses and all that sort of thing and created quite a lot of wealth. And they stored that wealth in the bank because that's what they were told to do, you know? And they'll get great returns. So when I had those interest rates of 18% of my home, you would get 16% return on money that you had sitting in the bank and you know that's a fantastic return. But look what's happened over the years. You know, that was 30 years ago. Now we're down to zero negative rates in other countries. Japan has been at negative rates for 20 years.  Josh: How much money have they reprinted over there? Paul: Does anyone know why? Does anyone really know why? Or is it just like it's a bad economy and all this sort of stuff? So what makes the bad economy? When people stopped spending! If you're not buying things at the shop, then retail starts to drop off. I want to spend the money. So they're trying to force you to get your money out to spend. Banks don't make money out of people saving and make money out of people borrowing. So they don't want you having money sitting in the bank anymore. Their fractional reserve system, that doesn't matter anymore because they're reprinting money off loans. They make more money out of loans than they do early use saving. So the idea is to try to get that money out of the system and into risky investments or to just get you out there spending.  But when you have the majority of the world's population over 45 years old, that's when our spending curve drops right off. We're not out there buying. We're not down to supermarkets every week, three times a week, or whatever at the big shops. I'd be lucky to go to near Robina. I'd be lucky to go there once a month.  Josh: Yup. For those listeners that didn't hear you. You were saying the GFC is a light rain comparative to what could be happening. And I always say if it's been 30 years since a major recession and it doesn't hit right now, all that means is we're going to be getting a slightly bigger downfall before we're getting absolutely torrential rain in 7 or 11 years time from now. Would that be fair to say?  Paul: It could be any time. When you think about in Australia, we've had 28, 29 years without a recession. What has stopped that recession from happening? So back in the 90s when it happened, like 1990, 91, we had the recession we had to have, but they didn't do anything to try to stop it. You know, and as I said, the interest rates are at 18% so what they've done to stave it off every year, you know, because the next government that comes in needs to be leaving it in a good place. They don't want to be the government that caused the recession. Right.  Josh: The inevitable recession. Paul: The inevitable recession. And when you look at what the US in particular, they've had about seven or eight in that amount of time. Australia have had none. So every time that you look at the interest rate table and you look at different things that's happened, like the 9/11, the GFC, they've dropped rates 3% to 6% in order to stave off that recession. Probably the other recession that we had to have. And now we're getting down to zero. We will be at zero. We're 100% going to zero. Where do they go? Where do they go if we had some major problem, like a GFC or whatever again or a reset? How do they fix that? Josh: I don't know. How do they reset that? They can’t.  Paul: They can't! There was a paper written 18 months ago by the IMF, and in that paper, they said that they are working on models to make -4% to -5% feasible. Josh: All right. Paul: So try to get your head around that.  Josh: I get paid to have a house. Is that right?  Paul: That's already happening overseas.  Josh: I have read up about that. So that would mean that the more debt you've got. Go and buy a house now, ladies and gentlemen.  Paul: Why would they want to do that? Why would they want to get down to -4% to -5%? Josh: Well, I always say if they're getting down to those numbers, it's going to mean that people are going to be more wanting to get loans and get things like that.  Paul: I think it's about getting rid of cash because if they could get rid of cash and move it into a digital world, get rid of the physical cash, then they've got complete control. Josh: Well, see, the problem that I, and this is something that's come about over the last 10, 12 years. When cryptocurrency started coming around, if you're comparing apples with apples, and I'm not going to say that they're both exactly the same, obviously. But when you have a digital currency being compared to a digital currency, which is, if they're getting rid of all paper and all money becomes more frictionless to be able to move from the AUD to a Bitcoin or any of the other cryptocurrencies that are out there without it being is in the power of the banks or anyone else. How do you think they are going to overcome?  Paul: Well, I believe cryptocurrency is a red herring. I believe that it's just been set up for you to play with while they build their real money system. And there's a little bit of a showing of that last week. So in this IMF paper, what they actually said is that they would introduce e-money. They call it e-money. And basically what that means is that that item there is $100. They say, ‘Joshua, you know, that's $100 if you pay cash or $95 if you use e-money.’ And you go, ‘Well, I'll use e-money.’ So that's how they destroy cash. So they make it worth less than what it is. That's how they get rid of it.  There's a bank in Sweden, and the currency in Sweden is krona. The central bank in Sweden has announced the e-krona and they're in the second phase of testing e-krona. Josh: The timing of it's great.  Paul: And of course, it runs on blockchain because blockchain is a great technology. But yeah, it's a decentralized system? I don't believe so. I think it'll be a very centralised system, but it'll definitely be electronic or digital.  Josh: Yeah. Okay. So I guess the recession at this stage, you're saying, is inevitable. It's going to happen. Got a beautiful way to at least have people that are struggling a little bit in their business, whether that be because they need to have more finances bought into it. Or maybe you've got people on the other side of the coin that have liquid assets or liquid cash where they want to be able to use that and invest into something that's going to be giving them a bit of a better return without having to put it into the big nasty banks. How do you go about? How does NoBNK work?  Paul: So the way that NoBNK came around is that many years ago, I looked at many of the managed funds and different places like that where they would collapse. There were quite a few here on the Gold Coast where a lot of those managed funds collapsed and the person who lost that was the investor every single time.  And it's only because the managed funds, number one, they think like a bank. And number two, they take their fees and everything out first. I'm not saying that all managed funds are like this. I'm just saying that when you get that real control freak at the helm, that's when there's a problem. So I designed a system where there is no control freak. So it's all about putting the control, the choices, the security back in the hands of the investor. And the number one thing is the trust. You know, because I think that we put a lot of trust in these organisations, in the corporate side, the banks and a lot of these managed funds. That's what we were told. You know, this is what you do. And I think they’ve broken our trust. I think they've broken our trust big time. You know?  The way that NoBNK is set up is that we make our number one product service. You know, everybody wants service. Well, the banking model can't give you service. It's impossible because of the way that their pecking order is designed. So their pecking order is profits first, shareholders second, then clients, then employees, that's the pecking order. They can't give you service. They don't make money out of service.  We're not about that. We're about, if we create that service for you, where you're having a great experience and you feel that you've got the trust and you will have to trust because what I say to people is, who's the one person that you trust more than anybody else in the world? To make the right finance decision for you. It's yourself, right? You trust yourself more than anybody else. So why are we giving that away? Why are we giving that trust away to the banks? So what we've done with this platform is that we're going to make you the bank.  Josh: Okay.  Paul: If I want to borrow money from you, why do I have to go to a bank to do that? You put your money in the bank and then I go and borrow the money from the bank. That's your money that's in the bank. That's not theirs. So why not just borrow directly from you? So the platform is set up where we facilitate accurate information between somebody who wants to borrow money and someone who wants to lend it. So the terms are all worked out, and if the borrower is happy to go, and the lender is happy to go, we just put those two together. That's all we do. And they've paid monthly returns in events on their investment. I don't know how many other investments you get paid monthly in advance, and it's direct in the security goes into the investor's name. Josh: Okay. So let's say I'm new to the idea and I'm going, ‘Okay. Yeah. Stuff the banks. They've stuffed me over too many times.’ Without saying the bank that I'm with, I can see the interest rates that I could be getting just changing to another bank, I could be saving $11,000 a year in mortgage repayments, and I had to look and I thought, ‘Ah, it's too hard.’ How hard is it? Or how would I go about moving a lot like a house?  Paul: The area that we're not going after at the moment is the consumer market. It's very regulated. There are a lot of rules around that market. We'll get to that. We'll get to that market. But the area that we want to look after, first of all, is the business and commercial arena. I think that if you look after the business side of things first and the business owner, they're gonna have to worry about their day-to-day things rather than worrying about when the next dollars, you know, how they're gonna pay their bills, if the bank's going to foreclose on them and the house is tied to that loan and all that sort of stuff.  So we look at things a lot more commercially and it won't always need to be property initially. There’s a lot of lending that happens out there that a lot of people don't know about, where you might have some text it or you need to, you want to jump on an opportunity pretty quickly and all this sort of stuff. So they use private, short-term lending and that short-term lending could be a loan that's anything from 3 months to 3 years. It’s not a 30-year loan and all that sort of stuff, and it's just about jumping onto an opportunity or it could be getting out of trouble. You know, ‘We're in a bit of trouble over here. We need to pay back the bank and get some cash flow into our business as well so that we can stay afloat.’ So really, we're more targeting that area there at first, which is perfect. Yeah. Well, I think it's an area that's very under-serviced.  And the other area that we're targeting, and this, as I said before, is those people all around the world, those high net worth investors all around the world that's got money sitting in the bank and it's getting them no return or very low returns. We want you to be able to negotiate the term between what sort of return you want. So really you get to choose the return you want. And the client gets to choose whether to accept it or not.  The way this platform is designed is that as an investor, we don't touch your money. So we never touch your money. We're not a managed fund. It's not a pooled investment. It's not a, you know, sort of property trust. It's not a contributory fund, none of that sort of stuff.  It's just one loan, one investor, one loan, one investor, one loan, one investor. So someone wants to borrow $1 million, the investor's gonna put up the whole $1 million, and we're just going to put those two directly. Josh: So it sounds like obviously it's a lot of advantages for both parties in regards to the returns that they're going to be getting, as well as the rates that they're going to be paying because you're cutting out the bank in the middle. What would be some of the, I guess, risks? Or does it take the same amount of time to process through if you wanted to get an equipment finance loan for $50,000 for a new digital printer or something like that. Paul: The process is quick, it all happens within 24 to 48 hours. You'll know how many people So as a borrower, you'll know how many people are interested in doing your loan and you'll get offered the lowest interest rate that they offer.  Josh: Is this a global thing or is this just Australia?  Paul: This will be a global thing. Initially, it's Australia, but we do want to take it globally because the problems that started in the world, the reason why I've talked a lot about Japan is because the reason why they've already experienced all this, what we're going through, is they’re the oldest population in the world, you know? So it all adds up to me. Their ages crossed over and over that 45-year mark, they're average age crossed over 15 or 20 years ago. So it comes in a lot sooner than what it has to us.  Josh: And their workforce is diminishing because of that. Paul: That's exactly right. And the wages aren't going up. All the problems that we're starting to have here in Australia, you know, property prices are going through the roof, but wages aren't going up. So the next step is how does somebody that's on 60 grand a year buy a million dollar property in Sydney? Well, I'll have to have a 70-year mortgage just like they have in Japan. You can see it. You're watching the pattern globally. It's happening all through Europe. You know, there are 30 countries in the Eurozone now that are on zero and negative rates and the lowest is -0.75.  Josh: All right. That's nuts. It's nuts when you think about it, and as you were saying, like it was only 30 years ago, we had the last recession, and so for Japan to be at the position...  Paul: 20% 30 years ago. Now the -0.5.  Josh: And that all comes down to the workforce and the economy, and that's where we're, as you said, we're heading towards the potential issue here.  If someone wants to jump in and jump onto NoBNK or hear any more information, how do they go about sort of doing that? Paul: The good thing about us is we can look after you no matter where you are in Australia and then as I said, that eventually, New Zealand will be pretty quick, but then we'll be going into places like the UK and America and things like that as well. This is something that can go global and that's the whole idea is that we're about like, you know, if you're going to disrupt your models and make it worthwhile.  Josh: Absolutely. If you’re going to kick the big in the head you may as well do it globally.  Paul: They had their place and as I said, we're not going to manage, we're not going to take your money and just go and do a hope and pray thing like many do. Your money stays in the bank under your control, so nothing changes, right? The only thing that changes is you get the opportunity to be able to have a crack at one of these deals and become the bank.  And your worst case scenario is you're sitting there with a security in your name and you're getting a return. Whereas what's your security in the bank? There isn't any, but if you don't win the deal, because it's going to be like an auction type system where you make a bid on what sort of return you want, then nothing's changed in your life. You still get your money sitting in the bank, you know? No one's touching it. No one's taking any fees off you or any of that sort of thing.  We're all about mitigating risks. We've got to mitigate the risk for the borrower, the lender, and for ourselves. So it's about everybody having this happy equilibrium, you know? That's how we're going to structure this thing.  We've got a whole website there. It’s NoBNK.com.au. And the reason why we got B N K is because ASIC won't let us use the word ‘bank’. It's a swear word. So we call ourselves NoBNK and we advertise as NoBNK does that, which has a double meaning. NoBNK does that. Josh: Perfect. As an investor and a borrower, what's the starting and ending amounts you can go for.  Paul: Because we're starting with the property component of it first of all, the minimum line would probably be around the $50,000 mark. This is why we're up to sophisticated investors. So this is some for your institutional versus, or you know, like your mum and dad's and things like that. You must be a high net worth. You know, I know people out there, they have tens of millions just sitting in the bank.  Josh: Yep.  Paul: Globally. So you might have somebody, you might have a deal here in Australia. There might be somebody in Japan that makes a bid on the deal and all of a sudden they're getting a return of 4%, 5%, 6%, 7%, whatever it is, whatever that agreed return is, where they're getting nothing over there, but they've actually got to pay to put their money in the bank over there. So it's a really good outcome because, you know, we just let the market set itself dynamically. There is no ‘ring Paul up and say, “Mate, what interest rate can I get?”’ There's none of that anymore. It's just like, well, it's whatever anyone's prepared to bid and whatever you're prepared to pay. Josh: Yep. So it's win-win. Paul: And look, there's rules for the investors. I've got a pretty good record. We're doing this sort of thing.  Josh: You've been doing it for more than 10 years?  Paul: Yeah, about 10, about 12 years now. I've been doing these sorts of loans for some high net worth. And in that amount of time, we've had no foreclosures and the investors haven’t lost money in the capital. And it's just about managing it.  Josh: That's a good run.  Paul: Yeah. It's just about managing. You don't smash people when they're down. You help them. You don't have to be all hard about it. You know, you're a day late or two days late with your payment. It's about managing it. Nobody gets hurt. You know what I mean?  Josh: So how do you guys come into it? Do they just clip the ticket on the way through?  Paul: You have a gross line amount. You have a net loan amount. You got to add that first month's interest. There's lawyers involved, there's all sorts of things, which for the investors, it's great for them. It's their lawyer. So it's a lawyer of their choice. And you know, usually there's brokers involved in all the research, so there's nothing under the table. So there's no hidden fees and charges and all that sort of stuff. In our letter of offer, it's like, say for example, you want half a million dollars and it might cost $520,000 you know, like when you add everything up. So you say, okay, so your gross loan amount is 520, that's what it is. You'll see all the costs that are involved, all the rest of it, and you get the choice to say, ‘Yeah. I'm happy with that.’ ‘Well, no, thank you.’  Josh: Fair enough. Cool. Cool, cool, cool. I think there's going to be a big help for a lot of people that are feeling a bit of pressure, whether that'd be as an investor or they're looking potentially down the barrel of a gun for a business. They might not be going as well as it was. Is there anything else you'd like to add? Paul: There's lots of businesses out there that need lots of help in different ways. It's not just about, you know, finance and properties and all that sort of stuff. It's just about knowing that there are people out there that, you know, we'll have a chat about it first. I mean, whether you've been rejected by a bank, don't want to go to their bank or can't go to a bank, that's why we're here. So pretty well covers everybody. When you do those things, we tell them, you don't go to the bank, come to NoBNK.  Josh: I guess back in the day, there was like no-doc loans and things like this. This is from a business owner's perspective. Paul: It's a very, very simple process. So you know, the information that we asked from you is not onerous. It's really quite simple. It's a very quick application process. This platform that we've built that we'll be releasing in the next couple of weeks, it'll be automated. It's just a quick, you know, fill in the application process type of thing and you'll get SMS and emails and all that sort of stuff, and then so will the investors and they'll be able to start bidding on your deals straight away.  Josh: Sweet.  Paul: It's a little bit of a game changer, come to the market.  Josh: Absolutely. Yeah.  Paul: That's what it's about, isn't it? It's about changing things up and seeing if we can do it better and make a change, you know, a different change for the better for once rather than just doing the same as everybody else.  Josh: Really enjoyed talking to you and is there anything else you'd like to add before we jump off? Paul: No, mate, I really appreciate it. Thank you very much. I'd like to wish everybody out there that, you know, there is hope. It costs you nothing to apply with us or to have a chat with us or anything like that. So, you know, your people wanting to, you know, they're welcome to have a chat anytime they like. Josh: Cool. Only advantages and as I said, a very welcome time for me to be talking to you about this sort of stuff for a lot of people out there.  Paul: Appreciate it, mate. Thank you very much.  Josh: If you have any questions and bits and pieces, we'll put a link down to NoBNK as well as Paul's details. If you've enjoyed this episode, jump across to iTunes, leave us a review, give us some love and stay good. 

127: Interview with Dr Larry Little Josh: So, I've got a special guest with us today, which is Dr. Larry Little. Now, Dr. Larry Little is somebody who's been very, very fun part of my life and has influenced millions of people through his book Make a Difference. Now Make a Difference is all about doing just that, making a difference. And I'd like to introduce you now, Dr. Larry Little, why'd you want to make this book? Learn more about how to make a difference at dorksdelivered.com.au Dr. Larry Little Well, Josh, thank you first of all For allowing me to be with you and just to hang out and to talk. I'm so proud of you and you're such an incredible leader, and example of what that make a difference the whole concept is about. And you're a wonderful example of why I wrote the book. Because I understood that people they may be brilliant and certainly can do things from a skill standpoint, can do things from a technical standpoint that were... and they were very gifted in that area. But what happened was I had entrepreneurs and owners and people that were leaders would come to me and they would say, "You know, Larry, I had this wonderful, for instance, engineer and she was brilliant. So we promoted her and she failed miserably. We promoted her, she had a team of people around her. She had no clue how to lead a team. She frustrated the team. She was frustrated. She ended up leaving. So we lost a great engineer, not to mention we still have a need for this leader in this area." I got to thinking about that, Josh and I saw a gap and how we literally talk, communicate, engage others. And I thought we're going at this kind of in an ineffective way. So, the Make a Difference concepts began to emerge around understanding who you are but not so you can just understand who you are, but let's understand who you are so that I can then understand who others, who they are and so that I can get to where they are and speak their language. And that's the real secret if you were to take... So if you take the whole book, in a nutshell it's understand who you are, but understand how to speak the language of others. The results have been really, really exciting as I've seen relationships grow personally in business, professionally simply because people begin to understand how to connect, engage, and really speak the language of those within their circle of influence. Josh: I completely agree. And one of the things that I definitely found from the book that I got now, I was fortunate enough to have started reading the book a number of ago when you did a bit of a tour around Australia and I met you in person, which was... didn't realise I guess the golden nugget, the opportunity that had landed in my lap in meeting you and how it was the change and pivot the direction of my life and the influence that it gave to me. So one of the things that I've found is it's not just about business, and it's definitely about relationships and communication and the way that you're talking with people and understanding what's their carrot for some people, and what is the driving motivators? why do people act the way they do? I know myself, and if it's not overly obvious, I'm definitely a quite a monkey. And the the interesting thing, actually, I'll give you a bit of background on the book. So you've got different characters that you all relate to, and there's different of profiling that you can do. But this is really easy to see and understand what type of person that you are and the type of... and how you discuss different things with different people. And how you've received the information from different people. And there's different books that I've read over the years and other ones on the five love languages, which I'm very familiar with. A different type of concept, but still resonates strongly with me. And being able to understand that when I'm talking with a line and they told me something very directly, and it was impacting me emotionally from them telling me what they've told me and it was... And they've told me and then it's been shifted on, it's out of their mind. And someone might say, "Josh, you look stupid in that shirt. What are you wearing that shirt for?" And all of a sudden that's in my head every time I see them for the next three years, they think I look stupid. And whether or not it was just something silly that I did or some off the cuff comment. And in my mind they were thinking about that as well the whole time, and I was thinking about it. It had entered their mind and let their mind and that was it for them. Dr. Larry Little Great. Josh: So, it's interesting just to understand how people think about you and how you should start thinking about others. And I'd say comfortably it's affected in positive ways, all areas of my life. My communication with family, friends, business associates, anyone and everyone. The way that I present myself on stage, the whole lot has changed because you can more easily gauge the feedback of the people that you're discussing or conversing with and work your way from there. It's a valuable read. So what would you say is where are you going from here? Dr. Larry Little Well, first of all, Josh, once again, congratulations, you get it. That's exactly the purpose of the book. And books like The Five Love Languages the Make a Difference these books all have one thing in common. And that is, it's about servant leadership. It's about understanding how to get to where someone else is instead of them to get to where you are. And that means you've learned to put your sensors in when you're around lions and not be offended with their direct language. You've learned to when you're presenting, to understand who your audience is and present in that format. And all of those things are... those are concepts, principles that really are undergirded by that servant leadership model. And the servant leadership model is just, let's understand and look at leadership from a service mentality instead of a dictatorial, narcissistic mentality. Josh: Yes. Dr. Larry Little Which it really is about serving others. And that's the premise of the book. The book, there are two myths that we really have to debunk. And the first myth is that we believe everybody shares our value view. In other words, we believe that what we think is important, everybody else thinks is important in terms of emotional connection and those kinds of things. That's not true. Everybody has their own value view. The second myth is that we believe everybody views us the same way we view ourselves. That's not true. We had this narrative that we tell ourselves, and this is how, based on our personality, based on who we are that is the narrative that drives our behaviour many times. But when we become self aware and we say, "Wait a minute. You know what, that narrative is not true for her or for him," then it changes the way we connect with others. And it's that understanding that drives us to serve others. And really the crucible of leadership is your purpose. Why are you leading? Why are you doing what you do, Josh? And the answer is because... for me it's because I want to make a difference in the lives of others. I want to make a difference in their life. I want to be able to speak into that. So this is a vehicle, this Make a Difference book is a vehicle for that. And that book it's been around and it's been around the world and we've been just very excited and very humbled by seeing the difference that it's made in relationships. Because Josh, if you in this interview you had said, "Hey Larry, this book it's really good. It's helped me to be a better leader. Boy it's helped me to be really much better president, CEO of my company, entrepreneur. Boy I could really lead my people in my company now." I would really be disappointed in you and I would say, "I'm so sorry. I was disappointed in myself because we didn't achieve what I wanted for you." But if you said what you said a minute ago, that, "Hey, this has helped me personally. This book has helped me in my personal life with those relationships that are so important to me. And oh by the way, I use the concepts in my professional world as well because it spills over." Then we celebrate. Then we say, "Hey, that is awesome. I'm so excited. I'm so proud and I'm so glad that you were able to use a bit of this to speak into the lives of others." So what's next? And it's really cool to watch it. The organisation that I work with, it's called Legal Centre for Leadership and we are taking these Make a Difference concepts and we continue to coach around them. With the executive and leadership coaching. We also have make a different seminars. We have a series of those that from accountability to engaging the disconnect, those kinds of things that our trained facilitators do a tremendous job. Very excited about our products and tools that we offer to support that and assessments. And really excited to roll out in 2020 what we are calling Eagle University. And Josh, we are taking those concepts and we are building a university online where you can go and get certified as an Eagle leader by walking through these, make a difference courses and other courses and that kind of thing. We are, our team is, they're going at it. They're excited about it, and we're focused on it. And I'm so grateful they let me hang out with them. It's exciting times around Eagle leadership. Josh: That's cool. So for the people that are in the land down under, a lot of the time that we find I guess we were only a very small, I guess we're a small continent full of widespread people. Is that someone that you'll be touring around Australia with or is that something we could say and definitely jump into online for some of the online university type media? Dr. Larry Little Oh yeah, the answer's yes and yes. Definitely you can jump online. Definitely you can participate in the Eagle university in the coaching, the seminars. With that I was just over in... well I would say your neighbour, maybe, we were in New Zealand. Josh: East Australia as I call it. Dr. Larry Little Yeah, the East Australians. Yes. So we were in New Zealand and we were able to roll out some of these concepts and yes, we'll be back in Australia. We'll look forward to that. But a lot of our work from a coaching standpoint can be done virtually now. We coach leaders literally across the globe. And so to answer your question, absolutely, we can do it virtually or in person or online. So that's exciting. Josh: That's cool. Yeah. Well, it's definitely as I said, it's impacted my life and it's been something strong enough that my position has evolved as it does over the years. Over the 12 years I've been in business, I've gone from being the guy in the trenches and talking with customers all the time, to being the guy that goes out and builds a team. And then from the team now I've started influencing and leading other business owners, which is something I'm very, very dear about and interested in doing. Because it's helping not just grow my business and the way that on own my mindset, it's helping grow theirs and hopefully accelerating their growth. Instead of taking 12 years to gain the knowledge that I've gained, helping them get it in a fast paced way that allows for them to apply that to their business, grow their business. And have the maturity that they can have, hopefully sooner. One of the actual great bits of feedback that I got and only a couple of weeks ago I had someone call me up, and I'm sure he would've called you up if you had your number. But he called me up and he said, "Joshua, I can't tell you how happy I am that you book Make a Difference on to me and how much it's changed my life." He's only halfway through the book at the moment. And him and his partner, they both work together in a local plumbing business. And he took his car to the mechanic and so the mechanic he's been taking his car to for years, and he he left. And he noticed that there was something wrong in the brakes and he thought, okay I'll bring it back to him and I'll just let him know there's something wrong with the brakes. And he thought, I'll talk to him as he would because they're on a friendship basis, the working friend relationship. Dr. Larry Little Right. Josh: He said, "Oh, I know you came in and you discussed... you had my car serviced, but I've noticed that the brake pads don't seem quite right. I've had a bit of a check over some pretty technical mind and I've noticed there's only a couple millimetres left. And I know I didn't bring it in to build the brake pads, but whats to go with that?" Now the mechanic went into an attack position, got rather upset with him. And Dan, the person who took the car to the mechanic was able to diffuse the situation by not retaliating and showing his teeth, and instead understanding where he was coming from and making sure to calm down the situation. Now the relationship with the mechanic might not continue on a whole bunch because it's... he felt very, I guess... you don't feel comfortable when someone does something like that. Josh: But it showed him this mechanic that's been a local mechanic for 20, 25 years around the area, what he could gain from the learnings or from the teachings that you have. And how impactful it's been for somebody who's only halfway through your book. And I can only imagine what value they would be getting out of any of the courses and through your seminars. Dr. Larry Little Well, you know I'm really glad to hear that. It is fulfilling and I just love to hear when someone says, this is helping me in my personal life. That was the purpose of the book. And that Dan had the competency to absorb and then to put into practise how to have those hard conversations. Realise that situation, how to have a hard conversation is certainly very, very important part of the things that we talk about in the book and in our seminars. So it speaks well of your friend. And like you said that professional relationship may change and look different and not be salvaged. But the fact that he did not allow himself to engage in that personal conflict, but yet he had healthy conflict and had a hard conversation, it says a lot about him. Josh: Absolutely. And there's a book that I've read by called [Flawsome 00:15:14] and it's about embracing your flaws. Now these aren't necessarily personal flaws, but about embracing flaws that you might have had because you dropped the ball, you stuffed up. Now everyone does it. Everyone has a bad day. Everyone has an off day. And when you dropped this ball, Flawsome is all about making sure that you embrace the flaw and then overcome it. What I love about Make a Difference is it's about making sure you're understanding it from the other person's perspective so that once you aren't... you have a lot of empathy towards the situation and you're not going in with the Lion heart outset or the monkey outset or the camel outset. And I think that's such really important to do. Dr. Larry Little Well, I think that you're very wise and that is a skill and you're 100% right. You've got to be willing to fail. You've got to be willing to say, it's not about getting it right every time, Joshua. Right? It's about saying, "I'm going to try to get in those other quadrants." And when I say other quadrants, I'm talking about where are the other personalities live? And the book breaks that down. So, that takes practise just like anything else. It takes discipline, rigour and rhythm. And if we have those things and we say, "I'm going to have the discipline." Yeah. Josh, just a quick... we'll chase a quick rabbit is, one of the things I've never understood this when we start teaching and talking about this, sometimes some of those lions or camels will say, "These are soft skills. You're just teaching soft skills." And the truth is no, there's nothing soft about it. This is hard. These are hard skills. If they were so often easy, then everybody would be doing it and relationships would be flourishing everywhere and we would never have problems. Right? This takes practise and it takes it... Good news. It is something you can choose to learn and choose to grow in. Right? But it takes practise and being willing to say, "Hey Josh, I blew that. I tried that. I'm sorry. Let me back up and try something. Yeah, Josh, I thought you were lion. I was a bit direct there. Let me back up." Because you're really a monkey and I got to tell you how good looking that shirt is and how I really like it. Josh: Exactly, exactly. And it's about understanding someone else, understanding how your team's working. And I also find, and I've done a couple of YouTube videos and this one's called the Mirror Mindset. It's about understanding yourself and about also knowing a situation where you need to be present as a different person. So, being a leader is about making sure you understand your team and you have your team all pulling towards... I think the saying goes, all ships rise with high tide. And hopefully I didn't quote that wrong. Josh: The important thing is when I was very introverted at school, and very introverted for the first part of my life. I was overweight. I was picked on to a spot where I wasn't able to walk anymore. Walk any more for a couple of weeks, when I was... Sorry, bashed up would be the more appropriate term rather than picked on, physically picked on. It was a traumatic experience. And when I lost the weight, I lost 38 kilos, I was still the timid person that was still trying to make people feel good, feel happy. And the reason I believe I became a monkey or what was because everyone resonates with the class clown. Everyone resonates with something that can make them laugh. And the universal languages is the smile. And Mr. Bean did it really well as did Charlie Chaplin making everyone smile without even speaking. Dr. Larry Little Right. Josh: Now, now when you read this book and you understand the teachings of Larry, it's fantastic to sort of know, okay, when you jump onto stage, you need to snap out of the mindset that you had and the person that you was, and you then need to become this other person. And one of the things that I found that taught me a lot is people such as [WindoyYankovic 00:19:19] Jim Carrey and a bunch of other people that are very loud extroverted people. But at heart are still very introverted people and they're actors and they're acting extroverted. Now, what I found is I was able to put on different hats, depending on different situations, and more easily resonate and get my message across. If I'm talking with a lion and I know that the information they want is to be direct. They want information, but they're not looking for details, that they're wanting to pieces to get the information... to get everything done. And that also goes for myself when I'm in a situation that I can't be a monkey or I shouldn't be a monkey. Or I need to be aware of all of those traits. It allows for me to be a better person in all situations, even if it's, yeah, I guess in just all situations. So- Dr. Larry Little Well, Josh you know, you're so right. And first let me say to you congratulations for how you walked through trauma because the truth is that was a very traumatic event for you as a young man. Congratulations for losing the weight, I knew that took discipline and nobody understands that work. But I'm really impressed with the fact that you look back at that very difficult, unfair, not okay situation that you found yourself in. And in today's world would call it being bullied, and that's not okay under any circumstance. However, you chose to look at that and instead of remaining the victim, you chose to learn and you chose to grow, and you chose to overcome that and say, "I'm going to... Was that fair? No. Was it okay? No. But neither is life." Life has never fair. Life is not fair. Josh: No. Dr. Larry Little And the only thing we really get to choose is how we handle the struggles. We don't get to choose if we struggle because we all struggle. We all have things. But we do get to choose how we navigate those. And you chose to learn and to grow from a... I hate this really, but the truth is we seem to learn more from the hard experiences in our life. Not that they're okay, but if we choose, we can really learn and grow from those. And you did just that, and boy that's inspirational. Thank you for that. That's choosing to learn and grow and become a better leader and then to go into these concepts instead of becoming bitter, angry, defeated, you said, "No, no, no, I'm going to learn these concepts so that I can invest in others better, so that I can lead through serving them. So that I can understand and be self aware of who I need to be." Josh, that's great work. Congratulations. Josh: Thank you. It's obviously doesn't come with having the right mentality and making sure that you are investing in your personal development. Interestingly, actually that story has a second part where the person... there was these, about three different people that were picking on me out of a school of 1200. It was relatively low numbers, but still life impacting, isn't it? It's not about the percentage, I guess. Dr. Larry Little That's right. Josh: And so one of my first jobs was at subway, subway sandwiches, which we've got everywhere I guess. And I'm there behind the counter as a sandwich artist as it would be, and one of the bullies came in and my heart dropped. And I went, Oh my goodness. And I started freaking out and I thought to myself, no, because... I thought to myself and thought about it from their perspective, and put why are they bullying? What is going on in their life? And I feel whatever's happening in my life could only be... I've got great parents, I've had a great upbringing. I'm fortunate enough to say that I live in one of the best countries in the world, and we... and I thought what has happened in their life for them to be doing what they're doing? And I felt in my mind, it calmed me down. So I thought, okay, they've gone in a direction where they've had to lash out. And I thought they probably don't have the best family and upbringing. And I'd thought of this in my head and as I'm making their sandwich, and obviously everyone has this one thing sitting on this shoulder saying, spit in their sandwich. Dr. Larry Little Right. Josh: No one listens to this one, I hope. I hope not. I still go to subway. Obviously we're not talking about yet. So and he said to me without me saying anything and I was just smiling and being the best person that I could, and making sure that my outlook was not dropped down to any of the previous influence that I'd had from the situation. And he said, "Josh, I'm sorry for picking on you." And he said, "I'm sorry for bullying you at school." And he said that without me putting anything up, and nearly made me cry because I thought, wow, he's also matured in his mindset- Dr. Larry Little Wow. Josh: And that instantly all like... everyone's sort of... always having not miss about it. No, not about that situation, but at school. And when he said that everything sort of just felt like it was just a blanket that disappeared, and it shows the mental games that you make in your mind and how that plays and the impact that has on you, and what someone might say or do to you that changes and pivots the direction of your life. And as I said I'd be lying if I said that... I'm pretty sure when you first gave me the book, it was 2013 I think. Might have been 2012 around then. But it was, I can comfortably say that people come into your lives sometimes for good, sometimes for bad. That bully... And it's all again up to the mindset. That bully came into my life, and at the time I thought it was for bad, but then it's allowed for me to further understand how people think. So in a way it was for good. It was a hard lesson to learn. You came into my life for good. And again, that's a pivot and grown the direction of my life and how I've gone to impact things and people and that has been for good. So, it's all about your mindset, everyone... And this is again in the YouTube video I made the mirror mindset is about. When I started losing weight, I felt still overweight. My eyes saw a fat person in the mirror. And it was only after I then put on a couple more kilos that I then looked at a photo of me when I'd lost as much weight that I look anorexic. And I thought I've gone in the other direction. And so it's about your mindset and making sure that you keep in check and making sure you understand how people are perceiving you, how you're perceiving people. And know that the way that you're seeing you does not necessarily reflect the way that other people are seeing you. And we always, we're our worst critics, I'd agree. We do agree? Dr. Larry Little Yeah. There's no doubt. Well, unless we're narcissistic and then we're delusional. Right? Josh: Yeah. Dr. Larry Little But I think a lot of times that's very true of leaders and people that we are our worst critics. But perception is reality. And so you have to make sure that your perception is rational and it is real. And you had to check that even when the bully was apologising to you. You could have perceived that for him just to try to make up to you or that he had an ulterior motive, or that he wanted to get something for it. But you didn't. You took that at face value. You allowed it to be a source of healing for you. When people come into your life, when we introduced you to the concept that you had a choice to make. You could have perceived that as these are just soft skills and maybe it's good for somebody else, but you don't know what I've been through. You don't know what I've suffered. You don't know... But you didn't do that. You said, "I'm going to take those, I'm going to perceive that as something good and I'm going to use it and I'm going to apply it." And you did that Josh. And your choice, and we can never underestimate the power of choice in our life. We all have choices to make every single day. And you chose to take those concepts, you chose to use those concepts, you chose to apply those concepts. And you know as well as I do, if you were honest that took work. I mean, you've been doing this now since 2013 and you're still applying it and still using it. It's not a onetime and done. It's you've made that a part of your life and that took a lot of hard work. Josh: Right. And it's hard work. Nothing comes easy. Dr. Larry Little That's right. Josh: And a few things my father has taught me, is nothing comes easy and trust everyone until they prove themselves untrustworthy. Dr. Larry Little That's right. Josh: So, walk up to someone with open arms, not, not closed, and feel comfortable with the person that you're approaching until they show themselves to be, not the person that they first appeared to be. And that's a... Another person that's influenced my life. It's you and dad now, so- Dr. Larry Little Love that. Wow. You know, it's so true. And the whole centrepiece around the Make a Difference is that. And that's what we entitled it Make a Difference is that it's outward focused. It's about becoming self aware, yes. But becoming self aware so that we can give to others. Becoming self aware so that we can make a difference in the lives of others. And so you have done that, you've taken that and that's our goal in teaching these concepts. Josh, the truth is there are a lot of personality profiles out there. There are a lot of psychological assessments and they're all good. But seriously, there are a lot of very good psychological assessments that you can take. The problem comes when you take those tools and you get this plethora of data, you get all this stuff right? And they set it, and you try... First, you don't have time to go through it all. Second, you're not really sure what it means. And third, and most importantly, you don't know how the heck you're going to apply that quickly. So, the concepts we developed, the secret is not in a little assessment tool, that's not the the secret. The secret is well, I'll show you. So the secret is this, the secret is white picket fence. Josh: Okay. Dr. Larry Little White picket fence. So right now, Josh, even if you wanted to or not, it doesn't matter. Who you are, you're thinking of a white picket fence. You could say- Josh: I sure am. Dr. Larry Little ... I'm not thinking of one, but you are. And so that's the secret of what we do because neurologically our brains are hardwired to download word pictures very quickly and to process them very quickly. So, we use silly animal names, much love monkey, leading lion, competent camel, a tranquil turtle, so that our leaders are... And by the way, when I say leaders, I'm talking about all of us because we all are leaders. We all lead- Josh: Absolutely. Dr. Larry Little ... at least one person and that's ourselves. We only get to choose if we lead ourselves poorly or wisely. So, we wanted something that leaders could take and download quickly and apply quickly. So, the secret is in making it simple so that it can be practically applied so that then you can begin speaking that lion language to the lions in your life. You can speak the turtle language to the turtles in your life, and learn how in the world do you speak camel language and you speak that into the lives of camels. But the secret to the success of this, I truly believe is as simple as white picket fence. It's the practical application. It's the word pictures that we created because colours and numbers, our brain can't process that quick enough to really use it in the moment. Josh: Having a full letters that come back on a piece of paper without talking about the other tests. Obviously you can't really describe that or relate that to someone. But when you ask a five-year-old, "What does a monkey do, and how does a monkey look? How does a monkey react to a situation? And how does a lion look and what does a lion do and how does a lion react to a situation?" And anything that's worth teaching and worth learning should be able to be understood by a 12 year old. And I could comfortably say that being that we're related to animals, everyone knows animals, everyone loves animals. Everyone can see and see how they work together and how they can work better together. So, it's very, very smart the way that you did it. And as you said, situationally you can look and go, "Okay fine. They're that sort of person, they're that sort of person." And we've got a job network in Australia called Seek, which is you put an ad up on there to find a new employee. And we were using the make a difference test to sort of work out how they would fit into our organisation and how that would fit with us and the rest of our team. Dr. Larry Little Love it. Josh: And right from the word go we knew how we would be relating to them. And it's important too, what you pointed out earlier about engineers. And engineers may be being put into a managerial role does not necessarily mean that they should be managers. And it doesn't necessarily mean like a pay rise and a responsibility rise may not be what they're looking for. It may not be their carrot, and it may not be something they're looking for in their skillset. But if it is, it's definitely make a difference as a way that they can make it work with that position to make a difference, to there, present in the moment around that new position. Dr. Larry Little You're so right. Hey Josh, so I have a little secret and if you want me to, I'll let you in on it. You'd ask earlier what do you have? What's next? You want me to share it with you? I'm going to tell you just a little snippet about what's happening next. Josh: Yes, please. That'd be wonderful. Dr. Larry Little So, we're very excited that we knew the Make a Difference book, we felt like it had the concepts and we're so thrilled that it has helped people on an international level. That's awesome. But I knew there was something else and I knew there was, and the series is wonderful. We're glad to do that. We're so glad that, so cool what would people do that? But I knew there was something else. So, for over a year I've been piloting ideas and thinking about ideas and teaching and doing some work. And just last weekend I finished, I went in to an intensive, what I call an intensive, and I wrote a book that I believe is the sequel to the Make a Difference book. The working title of the book is called Lead to Make a Difference Above and Below the Line. Josh: Okay. Dr. Larry Little It's a different concept, but here's a snippet just to kind of give you an idea of where I'm coming from. You have to read the book to find out what above and below the line is all about. But it builds on, if you think about the DNA diagram, in the Make a Difference, it'll give you a hint. But the concepts are more around this. We talk about teams and that kind of thing and why they underperform or why there's toxicity in the team, or toxicity in a relationship. And the book centres not only on professional, but we talk a lot about personal relationships. And I think there's a monster. I think the monster attacks our relationships and attacks our teams. This monster is, I believe the reason that companies go under, that company's struggle, that relationships are destroyed. And the monster is fear, and the fear of failure, fear of being misrepresented, fear of being misunderstood. We could go on and on and I think the antidote to that fear is trust. But not in the traditional context of trust. We always talk about trust in terms of trust in a team or building trust in your relationship or building trust to be a strong... to trust each other to... Here's the problem with that. There's a huge disconnect there. Gap, if you will, and this is it. I don't think we can truly develop trust in someone else until we understand how to develop trust in ourselves. And I think self trust is something that people don't want to think about, but how in the world can I ask you to join me in a trusting relationship if I don't trust myself? Josh: Yeah. Dr. Larry Little: How can I build trust on a team if I don't trust my reaction? Josh: Got it. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Larry Little: Yeah. So that, the book Lead to Make a Difference Above and Below the Line talks about how to gain that self trust. There an assessment tool in there about it. So, I'm very excited about it. I think it's going to... Boy, I hope that it helps a lot of folks. It was difficult to write because it kind of went down a different direction even then when I first started the concepts way back. Because I've talked and listened, and learned and I've tried to learn from others. But I think the end result is going to be pretty exciting. Josh: Well, I'm definitely pumped. I've loved your first book and I'm very interested to read the next one. It's something that I think everyone has... As I said, everyone has this demon inside themself. They're self-doubting, and I know I'm going to say I'm the worst for it. The worst for it, I guess. And I know myself, I have a team that look up to me. I have staff members that have left. And I've continued personal relationships with them. I'm still friends with them. And whenever they come to Queensland, they see me. And I sent out a something to one of them recently. And and I said, "Oh look, I'm looking to go this approach." And I said, "I'm worried about some of the directions that, some of the parts of the business are going." And I sort of brought them up to him and he said, "I've worked for five companies since you. You are the most professional company. You offer the best, most outstanding service verse any of them. You should not be worried about anything." And I felt wow, the way he's told me and how he was able to put that data together nearly made me cry to be honest. It was wonderful and I thought, everyone's got this doubt in himself and I can't do this and I won't do this. And I relate it back to the girl at school that you had the crush on, or 2009. The person you had at school, you had a crush on I guess. But the girl at school that you had the crush on, looked across you thought, Oh, I'm going to... At the right moment I'm going to go there and talk to her and I'm going to... Oh, I'm going to ask if I can say hey or hang out with her at lunch or whatever the case was. And then you didn't. And a year goes by, two years goes by and this person is saying, still do it. And you go, "No, I'm not going to do it." And then you... I'm not going to have to hang out with her. She's too pretty. She's too beautiful. And then the last day of school happens and then you finish school and you realise, wait, I'm in the same position now as I was before if I hadn't jumped on that opportunity. And this self doubt can have you lose opportunities and have you fail at I guess the butterfly effect. If you've got a small thing that just saying hello once to someone, reaching out like I did with yourself and saying hey. The smallest thing can build into a big thing for everyone involved, if you've got the... I guess not the guts, but the power within yourself to override those thoughts, feelings, and strive forward. So, I guess it's an important message. Dr. Larry Little: No, it really is. And it's revelation when someone realises that she no longer has to allow feelings to drive her behaviour. He no longer has to allow irrational thoughts, right, to define who he is or who he's not. That there is choice involved and we can learn the discipline of learning to lead through those emotions and making good choices based on that rational thought process. In fact, if you take two leaders and look at two leaders who were put in the exact same scenario of struggle. One may do very poorly that he may become a victim. He may become disassociated, he may become... Another may experience struggle and hardship and pain and so... But at the end he's grown stronger. Josh: Yeah. Dr. Larry Little: What is the difference? And so the book addresses that head on. The difference is this person understood how to lead above and below the line, understood the voices that he or she had before them. And we talk about the importance of having a grit, G-R-I-T and leading. And so I don't want to go into all of that and take out time, But I'm very excited about it. I think it's a good, I really do think it's a good sequel to the first make a difference project. Josh: Cool. And is that going to be available in Australia or online or audio books?> Dr. Larry Little: Yeah, all of the above. Right now, it's just brand new and it's actually at our... we're in the editing process right now, so look forward in the spring of 2020. And it will be, our goal is to have it hard copy, online obviously you can get it on Amazon, those kinds of things. And then also I'm going to push our team so that we can do an audio version. I want to do it... In fact, I want to do that for both of those books and create that audible experience as well. So it was a great question. Josh: Cool. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's, especially I guess for business owners, and I'm going to say I love a physical book. I love feeling a physical book. I love the paper of a physical book and you want to get many technical people saying that. But I'm in front of a computer monitor sometimes eight hours a day, sometimes 18 hours a day. And the thing that I absolutely love is stepping away from that feeling something and you can... I think you can feel more of an emotion in the book. I don't know. It's probably just someone I'm saying. I feel that there's something there that you just can't get off of a screen. And that's where I'm looking forward to getting the physical book and I think that's going to do it for me. But at the same time, business owners are busy people and some people spend half their lives driving around in cars and I'd sincerely suggest not reading a physical book while in a car driving. Right. Dr. Larry Little: Agreed. Agreed. Josh: Yeah. So, it would be good to see it as an audio book. Well, I'm really happy to have been able to speak with you and go through and hear about the new exciting projects that you've got on offer coming through in the future. And also the, some of the ones that you've got on offer now through the university in bits and pieces, and... or soon to be on offer. Is there anything else that you'd like to ask me will go through? Dr. Larry Little: I'll tell you, Josh. It's leaders like you who are truly going to successfully make a difference moving forward because you are, as our friend Brad Scow talks about the entrepreneurial journey. You're in that leadership journey of now mentoring and coaching and just be encouraged that that is a very, very influential and important place to find yourself. So it is my hope. Who knows, Josh? This is what I might ask of you moving forward. Let's have a talk. I mean, we're always looking for coaches, so you never know, and presenters. So we may have to talk offline a bit about what you're doing. But seriously our website is eaglecenterforleadership.com and we'd love to talk with whoever is listening or watching and to be able to speak into your life as a leader, to walk with you to journey with you. That's a call that we have that is bigger than any of us any one person. We have a team of around 60 or so individuals that are all committed to walking with leaders in order to help them to lead differently and help them to influence others just like you Josh. And so it's been just a real honour. Thank you for calling and inviting me to come hang out with you for a while in the land down under. It's been a blast. Josh: Any bloody time. All right. I really appreciate you giving me the opportunity here as well. And as I said, I've looked up to you and your teachings for quite some time and I've carried them through to my life and carried them through in all aspects. And also in the lives of the people that I'm influencing. And it's touching to hear the stories. And I could only imagine the stories that you would have with people that have come to you and how you've helped them out. And there's a few written in the book, but the amount you would have had from the book, I could only imagine, would be a very impressive and very humbling to have all those. We will put a link to your website in the description below as everyone does, or it will be in the article on our website or in the podcast, or whatever the method is that you're listening. There'll be some way to jump on the site and check it out. And yeah, I really look forward to speaking with you again and yeah, going from there. Dr. Larry Little: Thanks my friend. Good day. Josh: Thanks. You too.  

How to Recession-Proof Your Mindset Special episode featuring business coach Tyson Sharpe. Check out Tyson's Facebook group Connect, Contribute, Collaborate: https://www.facebook.com/groups/connectcontributecollaborate/ Learn more on how to recession-proof your mindset at dorksdelivered.com.au Josh: Good morning everyone, and welcome to this podcast. Today we've got a fantastic guest with us. We've got Tyson Sharpe and it's going to be a doozy of an episode. We're going to be talking about recession proofing, your mindset. Tyson tell me a bit about what you do. Tyson: Yeah, sure. Well, thanks for having me. I always love doing these interviews and love sharing this type of stuff. But basically what I described as what I do is I help business owners and CEOs basically understand what's happening in their unconscious mind when they see these patterns of fears, doubts and frustrations arise. And so, we can have a different relationship with them. So, not only can we start to resolve those internal conflicts, but we can start having more success in business or in whatever ventures we're in, just as a byproduct of who it been. So, that's really where my work and my expertise lies. Josh: Sweet. Well, I know that it's, everything comes down to mindset. I started today with the eight suspicious transactions on my credit card and I thought no, so here we go. How's this week going to be? And I thought, you know what? I could smile off or cry. A rang through to the bank, got the transactions, looked at, had the credit card pause and then laugh. Tyson: You've got to stop sharing your details on the podcast. Josh: That's probably a good hint and tip there for anyone out there and security learn. So, if you had to go through different situations that you've seen and I think it's an imminent to the situation we're in in Australia with the recession, and that can bring about nasty thought, patterns and am I going to be successful or why are people disappearing? Why are they leaving and things like that. And it's a lot of the time not due to your own doing. How do you make sure that you have... what hints and tips would you give to make sure that you do continue on a positive train of thought in making sure that you're aware of your emotions and you keep up with your emotional fitness. Tyson: Yeah, sure. So, one piece of the awareness I would give people, and people can find this in themselves as well, is that when you have something like some uncertainties in your environment or you have some uncertainties in the future around finances or what's going to happen, whatever it may be, if you feel triggered by that, if you feel the scarcity, if you feel lack, if you feel overwhelmed uncertainty, what you have to understand is those patterns were already in you, right? So, if the recession comes or the recession's on its way or it's sort of slowly moving its way in, and that trigger you, what you have to know is that pattern was already in you. So, your external environments just triggered what was already in you. Right? So, what a lot of people will do is they'll try to solve their internal, how they feel and the uncertainty with the external results, right? So, they're like, "Oh, I just got to make more money or I just got to save this or whatever." And that's where I sort of find with a lot of business owners is they try to resolve the internal conflict with something externally. Or another way to put that as you're trying to achieve something external by filling a void within yourself. Right? Josh: Yeah. Tyson: So, if you're looking to achieve, if you're looking to get more money, more success, more fame or whatever it may be, what I find is a lot of people are doing that through an unconscious pattern of trying to solve an internal conflict, right? An internal void within themselves that they can't solve any other way because they didn't have the heightened awareness yet. And so, I like to raise that awareness so that people can actually start seeing what's going on within them and actually what's driving them, right? So a lot of people are trying to achieve success and they're thinking, yeah, I just want the best life possible. But what they don't understand is what unconsciously what's happening is they're trying to achieve at a different level because it's some level within themselves they're trying to feel enough or they're trying to feel worthy. And that's why I find a lot of people are trying to build a business based on fear, based on scarcity and based on lack, which obviously is not sustainable. Josh: So, I guess in that situation you'd be saying that maybe the measuring stick that they're using and what successes should be changed? Tyson: Totally. So, in terms of, it's not only the measuring stick, but it's also what's driving you. It's also what's giving you the fuel? Is it a push or is it a pull? Is it something that you feel like you have to do in order to be enough? Right? Josh: Mm-hmm Tyson: Or is it a pull, is it like a calling to you? Is it like when, so for example, if your internal and external world was exactly the way you wanted it, would you still have a calling to do the exact same thing right? Josh: Right. Do you wake up to do it or is it a job or is it a lifestyle I guess, is this something you would do if you were retired and you had all the time, money in the world or you found out you had a terminal illness or something like that? Tyson: Yeah, exactly. So, that's where I find a lot of people are trying to achieve because they're trying to feel that void within themselves. And that's why when they run into all the fears, doubts and frustrations, they're not too sure what to do and all of a sudden they think they need to change their external circumstances in order to feel a certain way. And obviously if you're trying to achieve something externally to feel a certain way, a lot of that can be outside your control. That's what sort of like drives people crazy, right? Trying to change things outside of their control and thinking that that impedes on how they feel on a day to day basis. So, that's the sort of awareness that I like to sort of raise with people. Josh: So, bringing awareness to the problem I think is very important. I know that I went through a darkest portion in my life, if I could call it that. And I wrote down a list of all the things that make me happy. All the things that make me sad. And one of the things was things outside of my control. And I was becoming aware of that, it allowed me to think, okay, now that I'm aware that that's outside of my control, I now know that something that makes me upset. But you can then change your emotions and change your relationship with that situation once you become aware of it. Would you say that's an approach that you would take, yeah? Tyson: Totally. So, that's the sort of what I call the first step. Josh: Correct. Tyson: So, in the business. So, everyone loves personal development, right? So, we love improving ourselves and so we love being able to reframe our thoughts and shift our state and learn how to feel better. Right? I call that's sort of first step. That's the pillar because that it's a good first step because it shows you that you are in control of your emotions and that it's actually your thoughts that lead to any emotions, not the circumstance themselves. So, that's a really, really good platform and it really sets the stage for personal development and for you to become the director of your own life. What I find what other people like my clients and my community is doing is just going that layer deeper. So, in terms of when they already know that, okay, my feelings and everything in my internal world is being driven by my thoughts and my internal pattern's not the circumstance themselves. One thing that you can start doing is when you do have emotions like fear, like doubt, like worry, scarcity, overwhelmed. When those feelings start to come up, instead of changing your emotion straight away, what you can actually start doing is starting to have a very, very different relationship with those patterns. Because what I found in my work coaching hundreds of business owners in the last couple of years is that, when these patterns arise, say a pattern of fear, so you've got the recession, you got external circumstances that are outside your control and you have this fear come up. What a lot of people do is, they avoid that feeling or they resist that feeling so they can avoid it by, like I said, by shifting your state and avoiding that feeling all by trying to change your external circumstances so that you don't feel that feeling right? Avoiding the circumstance, avoiding a situation that would make that feeling arise or they resist it. They resist it by not allowing it. So, they resist it by making it wrong. They resist it by thinking it shouldn't be there. They resist it by trying to fix it. Right? And so, what happens is when you have any emotion that arises, like fear and you avoid or resist it, it actually grows unconsciously. You're actually pushing down a side of you unconsciously. And that takes a lot of unconscious energy, but also allows that pattern to grow. So, it's almost like, if you were to have a five year old come to you, and they're running chaos, right? So, they're a bit scared. They're worried, they're fearful, and for a bit of peace, what you do is, you go and you place that five-year-old in a different room in the house. And so, you place the five-year-old in a different room, you come back to the room you're in and it feels more peaceful. Right? It feels more peaceful. But- Josh: It's not. Tyson: ... that five-year-old's still running chaos in the other room. Right? And they're probably doing it a different level, and in a different manner, because they're in a different room just running chaos. And that's what I find that a lot of business owners do, when these patterns arise is they avoid them. Right? Or they resist them. And so I find when people shift out of those patterns quickly, and they try to fix them, or they think something's wrong, they grow unconsciously. So, you can feel better on the surface with some personal development, and you're shifting your thoughts and reframing and all those really, really good tools. But unless you resolve that conflict, it's always going to grow unconsciously. Josh: Okay. And so, what would you say is the first step? Well, yeah, I guess we were talking about writing them down and becoming aware of them, but how do you know some people have had these ingrained in their life for so long that they're not even aware that there was some something like, I guess the old Hollywood scenario of you go and see a psychologist and they say all the problems stem back to your mother? Tyson: No. What should? Josh: And then how do you become aware that that's an issue? Tyson: Well, you can only become aware of what's in your conscious mind, right? So, what's coming up consciously that you can recognise are your emotions. We're genuinely pretty aware when we're fearful, when we do have this emotion of worry or stress, right? We totally do have those emotions and we're generally pretty aware of them. And so, I find it is true. A lot of your emotional patterns do come back to your childhood, right? Because we have conditioned in our lives, we have conditioned patterns that say who do I need to be and what needs to happen in order for me to be enough? Because if I'm enough, therefore I'll be loved and unconsciously love is linked to survival. So, that's why when we have an obstacle in our way between us and success, it can often feel like life and death because at some level it is to our unconscious mind. But you can definitely be aware of the emotions you're feeling and you don't actually need to know where it's coming from. It can help. You don't actually need to know where it's coming from to resolve the internal conflict, to resolve that pattern. What you actually need to do is feel it, is to feel that pattern without any resistance, without any judgement . And if you allow it to be there and not need it to leave, that's when the pattern starts to resolve. Josh: Okay. So, I guess, where do you start? I guess I know you've got a Facebook group. What are the other tools that you use or that you have to help people out with this? Tyson: Yeah, sure. I have, yeah, so many things. I've got the Facebook group and the YouTube channel and all those different things. The type of exercises or content or whatever it may be that helps people most, is helping them become aware that, so, to feel these patterns, so to feel when these emotions arise and to feel them fully. The way I sort of explain it, we'll stick to the five year old analogy. So, it's like when this patterns arising, let's say fear for example, if fear is arising within you, it's almost like an internal five of year old that's scared, right? So, for the recession, for example, recession's happening a lot of uncertainty, you're not too sure about your financial future. And all of a sudden you have fear. Now, what's actually happening is you have a pattern within you that was, I call it your five year old self, right? You have a pattern that was generally conditioned in your childhood that says, and that this pattern and his five year old within you believes that you need to have finances in order to feel enough or you need to have finances in order to be okay, in order to be safe, in order to be secure. Josh: Okay. And that could be depending on how your parents brought you up or the lifestyle that they had or other aspects like that. Tyson: There's so many factors. So, that's why I find it can help to identify the story, but it's not necessary. It's not an absolute puzzle piece to figuring out all of this, but it can help to understand that there is a five year old within you, a five-year-old pattern that does believe that something, that your financial future needs to be secure in order for you to be secure. Or you need money in order to feel enough and worthy, right? Or in order to feel safe. So, this five-year-olds freaking out. And what's emerging in the form of fear. It's almost like your internal five-year-old freaking out saying external circumstances aren't the way we think they should be. And so, the reason why this five-year-old's emerging, is so it can be seen, is so it can be heard, so it can be understood and loved. So, it's almost like that five-year-old coming up to you, right when you're in your house or whatever it may be. And this five year old is trying to be seen, trying to be heard. And that's why when a lot of people try to avoid them, or resist them, using the analogy of putting them in the other room. That's why that pattern grows unconsciously because it's not seen, and all fear will continue the more you don't want it to be there, and the more it's not seen. But fear will resolve and you can almost feel it start to dissolve within you. The moments that it's seen, the moment that it's understood and the moment that it's loved unconditionally. Another way of putting that is, fear will always resolve when you don't need it to leave. When you don't need it to leave and you just sit there and you feel it fully and you love that pattern and you listen to it, and you allow it to be there. That's when the pattern starts resolving. That's when it's [crosstalk 00:18:40]- Josh: There was just exactly what you're talking about. I might be misquoting this a bit, but are you familiar with the story of the turtle and the hungry fox about- Tyson: I'm not. Josh: It is a story told by Buddha and sorry for anyone that's listening as I'm terribly, it's terribly reiterating this wrong, but the fox sees this turtle and gets something to eat this turtle. This is going to be amazing and runs over to the turtle. The turtle pulls itself into the shell, instead of running away knowing that it won't ever be able to run away from something, the turtle in the situation would be fear as for the fox in the situation would be fear. The turtle pulls itself into the shell, not to necessarily protect itself, but to look within its own mind is the metaphor there to find and be within its own mind to be able to look outwards once the fear is gone. But battling the fee and not running away from it, was the sort of the analogy there. So, that'd be similar- Tyson: Yeah, exactly. Josh: I guess to sort of what you're sort of describing there. And it's definitely something that everyone needs to do. There's a lot of people that suffer from anxiety and I think anxiety is just, and this is again as a generalisation, it is a disease, but it's when we're not put in a situation where we're asked to grow beyond our comfort circle. You build up more and more of a problem and that's where you need to sometimes just battle up and jump straight forward through it. And that's stress. I guess another immersion, if you have stress a lot of the time it's because it's something that's important to you. You have anxiety because it's important to you. And so you need to know how to deal with that and be able to jump through those hoops so that you can overcome some of those five year old child, five year old self problems that you might have that have been ingrained into your belief systems. Tyson: Totally. I love that story. And it's true, if you are trying to solve something by running away from it, it's never going to work out. It's always going to be a downward spiral. But the moments you evolve are the moments when you know you need to look in. All the answers you have are within. And that's what a huge shift in my life has been, is when I have all this fear, doubt and frustration, and I realise that everything I want to achieve externally is internal. Every answer is found internally. And I am the answer that I'm looking for. And so, when I go in and meditate, for example, or I look in and resolve these internal conflicts, the external success is just the byproduct, all right? The excellent success in terms of the wherever it may be, the clients, the income, the Facebook group, whatever it may be. All of that is just growing just as a byproduct of the resolving these internal conflicts, because you can't help it evolve, you can't help, you're like a helium balloon that always just wants to expand and rise up. [crosstalk 00:21:54] A lot of us have the patterns that keep pushing the balloon down. So, once you resolve these internal conflicts, you naturally just float up. You naturally just move into a higher level of consciousness and a higher level of success, high level of contribution because that's naturally where we move, that's naturally where we go when we start resolving these patterns. Josh: Well, I couldn't agree more and having the best mindset and I've got a podcast and a YouTube video on mirror mindset. And looking within, because it is ultimately, it's where everything sits. The six inches between your ears is the most important six inches you have in your body. That's right. It's funny. So, yeah. Meditation doesn't have to be difficult to either. I know that you are a king spear who's meditates for a couple of hours a day, is that right? Tyson: Correct. Yeah. So I meditate. I've gone past a hundred days of meditating, two hours a day. And a lot of people freak out when they think of themselves doing the same, like how do you have the time? How the hell do you run a business and do all of this when you're meditating two hours a day. And I just find that when I wake up, I can feel when I'm in my head I'm like, I need to have this to do list. Right? Josh: Yes. Tyson: And my mind has a story of what I think I need to do in order to be okay. In order to be successful, in order to feel enough, in order to feel worthy. And then when I sit down and meditate for an hour, and I do at least an hour in the morning before I do anything, before I check my phone or emails, whatever it may be, social media. And so, when I do that, I come out of meditation knowing I don't have to do any of that. And in fact that was just a story I was telling myself. And then the actions taken moving forward, I'd just from such a guided place, it's from such a resourceful place. It's from a space of creativity and flow and that's why the success is the byproduct. When you're in flow, like you're unstoppable, right? When you're in flow and you've resolved some of your patterns and your internal conflicts and you start to love these five year olds so they can transcend, you just naturally fit into a flow and into a creativity. And you can start to feel when things feel heavy, when things feel a lot. And you can just stop moving from a place that's a higher guidance system. And that's what I find is, that's the flip that where everything sort of changes, and everyone sort of starts to notice that the answers are within them and they can just move from that place and they can be guided from that place and then they start to realise the success that they find is a byproduct. It's really just it's your own natural, it's the internal work that matters most and the external that is just the secondary gain. Josh: I would absolutely agree. I would say the best way to describe it in my opinion is everyone has experienced that writer's block is experience where you're there in front of the computer or pen on paper and you are like, honey just got to get this thing done and it might be a school assignment, might be an assessment, it might be something that's due the next day at work or, and you're just going through. I can't get it, and nothing is working. Nothing is working. A lot of the time, the amount of time that you sit there pestering your brain with negative thoughts saying, I can't get it, it's not working, I can't think of it. This is just crap, but I'm writing. Your conscious mind is passing all that to your unconscious mind and you're in 100% belief that you cannot do it, and you won't be able to do it. And then, as soon as you hit that point, which is the normally hours before it's due, or the night before, and then you have these cram sessions or this epiphany where this writer's blocks removed and you just have this huge amount of work that just comes out of you. And you think, "Wow, where did that all come from?" And as you said, it's always been within you and it's that you had this shift at a time where you went, "Okay, the negative of me not doing this work is now worse if I don't get it in because then I might not get the university degree or I might not get that promotion or whatever is at the end.” And so, the two balances of evil weigh each other out until you finally get it done. But if you meditate and if you, instead of procrastinating and having those negative thoughts, if you're, instead of spending the same time meditating, you'd find most people would have an easily an hour a day where they would be just procrastinating that they could easily be spending on meditation and positive thought training rather than sitting there not working, but waiting to work sort to speak. Tyson: Yeah, and I did this for like when I just started to, okay, I'm going to look internal. I'm going to resolve whatever patterns are emerging. I'm going to start to see, I'm just going to experiment. I actually did six hours in one day, just meditating and just in silence, complete silence, just sitting there. And that's scary to a lot of people, right? Very, very scary to a lot of people, and it was scary for me as well. And that's the exact reason why I thought I needed to do this. We live in a world where we are scared of what's emerging within us. We're scared of our thoughts, we're scared of our emotions. We're scared of just sitting there in silence. That's alarming to me, and my thought was how the hell is building a business or living the life you want, in terms of what you want to feel, and the relationships you want to have, and the contribution you want to make? How the hell is all that going to happen? How the hell is that sustainable? If I'm not okay with what's emerging within me, right? This doesn't make sense. It does not make sense if you're scared of the thoughts that are coming up or if you're scared of the emotions, like wouldn't that be something that needs to be addressed? Like wouldn't that be something? And so, when I sat down, I'm like I'm going to meditate for six hours, and I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know what's going to come out of it, but all I know is I'm going to find out who I am. And so, for hours I just had all these patterns and all of these stories of like, oh my God, you're irresponsible, you should be doing income generating activities, right? I felt guilty, so much guilt come up, all these thoughts around why, I shouldn't do it. And as I just sat there, I allowed it. I realised these were just five year old patterns that needed love, needed to be seen. And one by one, all those patterns just started falling away. All those stories, all of those patterns just melted away. And then I just sat there and I just kept feeling what was coming up. And I was just a space that all this was emerging in. And then, that's when I started having the biggest levels of creativity and flow and alignment. And yet a lot of patterns came up. There was a lot of sadness, right? I opened up a safe enough space for more and more five year olds to come to be seen. And I had sadness around past relationships. I had so much uncertainty around money come up, uncertainty about business, and finance, and clients I had, and all these different things. I just allowed it to be there, I just welcomed it, I loved all of it. I just sat there and just paid attention to what these patterns are saying. And one by one I just resolved them and then they transcended, and then more came up and that transcended and what was left. It was just this infinite flow like you described, if you're, would you rather be in? Would you rather be in a situation where you're like, I have to write this blog or I have to finish piece of work. And we're there when we're grinding an hour, we're trying to finish this blog. But then there's moments when the blog writes, you sit there and you're like, "Oh my God, I have to get this down." And you're just in flow and it's like everything else doesn't matter, and time stands still and you just, you're flowing with this blog and it's riding you. And that's what I find is possible. That's what I find, if you build a business based on that energy, based on that pattern where it's just emerging and flowing out of you, then that's it. Then that's a pattern that's sustainable, that's a business that's sustainable, that's a business that will be focused on growth, focused on vulnerability, focused on love, contribution, all those things that you know you are, instead of the fear, lack and worry and fear that we sort of explained before. Josh: And you're not pushing against yourself, which is really important. Tyson: Exactly. Josh: You're working with yourself, with your own goals and your own mindset. And I would like in this, obviously as with a computer background, I would like in a meditation to defragging your brain. As you said, you've got all these distractions all the time. You've got more than 350, 400 pieces of advertisement that's sent to you every day in one form or another to try and promote someone's product and do something here and something there. You've got people talking to you about is this thing done? Is the timeline done? Do you have this other thing done? Is this thing paid? All these things are going through your mind all the time, and you don't give yourself a moment to just breathe. And defragging your brain is putting everything in order, putting things in the right place, finding those priorities, finding the things that are important and letting your brain do the walking for you. Letting your brain do the calculations for you as opposed to you trying to dictate what's meant to be happening. There's 86,400 seconds in the day and people don't give enough time to themselves. People give themselves heaps of time to their clients, their family, their friends, their social posts. Their liking, whatever they're doing at the time, but they don't give that moment to themselves where they're not off when they're asleep and on when they're awake. They need to have that moment of reflection for themselves. And what you were saying, again on the 86,400 seconds in a day, during the day, some are like, "Aw man, you're a dickhead." And they say something about it and you go, "Oh man, I'm so offended when they said that, I had so much respect for them. Why would they say that?" And then you're there pondering over that one small comment and it might've just been like an off the cuff thing that you misunderstood the tonality in their voice. Like "Oh man, how are you even dickhead?" And you go, "Ah, okay." And then you're overthinking that problem. I don't know. I'm guilty of that. I've had situations where I've thought of something that someone has said even years later when I saw them again, I'm thinking, Oh, you said that to me. And they probably thought about it, said it as a funny joke and they continued on. And meanwhile, your brain is sitting there stewing over this one thing that they've said that's changed around the relationship with that person. It changed around your and mindset and burnt away a lot more time than the 86,000 and then the 10 seconds that might've been that they said it. And it's eaten into the 86,400 seconds in the rest of your day or even onwards. So, meditation is in very, very needed in the society, and it doesn't need to be hard. I started off looking at a candle and breathing deeply, holding my breath for a second and then breathing out and doing that 10 times or looking at a candle in a dark room with no distractions. And that is, in my opinion, one of the easiest forms of meditation to just start. What would you say? Where would you start? Where would you go from, some of these? Tyson: I mean, I meditate a lot, but I'm not the meditation expert. I've really done to teach on it or anything like that. But I think meditation is a tool just for you to connect with yourself at a different level. So, that's the way I describe it. I call it the may-first meditation, where that's when I meditate, before I do anything else in the day, I'll just sit, I'll just wake up, go to the bathroom, get a drink of water, and then just sit down in silence for an hour. But I say meditation as the opportunity for you to hold the space, to allow what's emerging to emerged. So, if you just sit there in silence and you'll start noticing all these thoughts, you may notice some emotions. That's just the space. Because what you're feeling emotionally, you're feeling it. It's coming up so that it can be transcended. It's coming up so that it can be released. That's what I know a lot of people understand. If you have fear, doubt, why are you scarcity that's coming up because it's ready to be emerged. Like the five year old sees you as safe enough to approach you, right? The five year olds approaching you because he wants to be seen, heard, understood and loved. And the five year old feels safe enough to come to you, right to be seen. And that's what's happening when these emotions arise? And so, instead of seeing the patterns and allowing them to transcend, we're neglecting them, or resisting them, right? It's almost like going exactly going out to that five year old and saying, it's wrong you're feeling this way or go away until you feel better or you need to be fixed on how much is the five year old going to feel seen. Of course not. And so, I find in meditation, it's giving you the space for you to feel and for you to notice what's happening internally and transcend these patterns that are ready to be released. Transcending these patterns that are going to give you the deeper connection with yourself. Because what's trying to emerge is not you. Right? Another analogy is that everything that's emerging is trying to die. It's trying to die. It's trying to move on because it's showing you what you're not. You're not these emotions, you're not these patterns. You are not your thoughts, right? You're the space at all of that exists in. And so, when you can start to tap into meditation, you can start to sit down and start to, whether you are looking at a candle, whether you are in nature, whether you are just sitting there in your room and just paying attention internally. It gives you that space for you to start loving those patterns. Start seeing, start noticing, start to hear those patterns and allow them to transcend and feel them fully so that they can transcend. And so, I find meditation for me is more of a self-connection than anything. And so, there's many, many ways you can do it. But that's just the way I view it. Josh: Cool. Right. I'd agree it's all about becoming connected in your special way that allows for you to do that. So, I guess for anyone that is listening, that is worried about the recession or doesn't feel aligned or doesn't feel enough, I know that you've got the Facebook group, you've also got a course that people can look to. Is that right? Tyson: Yeah, totally. So, the Facebook group is Connect, Contribute, Collaborate. So, that's the group where there's a lot of online business owners there, that are looking to do this in a work, but then they're also looking to connect with one another and they're connecting to form collaborations, joint ventures, all those really cool business things. And they know that that group is a group of heart-centred business owners who are looking to transcend these patterns who are looking to use that excess creativity and flow to add more value to their marketplace. So, there's a lot of value in that group and it's a really cool group. It's so engaging, everyone's looking to find ways to do joint ventures and collaborations. And then another aspect we're doing is we're actually going to combine our resources, combine our business brains, our expertise, and we're actually going to start donating some time towards charity and some non for profit organisations and helping them build their businesses as well. So, it's a really, really cool group that's actually making a difference. And so, that's what makes me super excited about it and super excited about the people that are in it as well. Josh: Cool. Well, I'm definitely keen to see what comes with it and if anyone wants to reach out and see what some of the awesome work that Tyson does, definitely jump across that Facebook group, would be a good entry point to start on your new journey of making sure that you have a recession proof mindset, and you're emotionally attached to your goals, I guess. Well, is there anything else you'd like to cover off on Tyson before we cruise off? Tyson: Oh man, there's so many different things that I could talk about. But the main takeaway is to just notice when you're resisting, and notice when you're avoiding those emotional patterns and your life will take a complete flip in the moments when you actually start to drop the resistance to those patterns. Right? Every emotion is never the problem. It's always a resistance to it. And so if you want to really start shifting, then dropping that resistance, dropping the judgement of what you're feeling and actually stop feeling without resistance is where I would say the biggest takeaway is. So, if people wanting to do that work, then that's where I'm always looking to support and I think it's going to be a complete game changer for so many business owners, and that's just what I'm passionate about. So, that's what I would leave you with. Josh: Cool. I guess engaging and embracing. Tyson: Mm-hmm. Josh: Well, it's been lovely having you on the show Tyson and I look forward to some of the new cool stuff that will come through over the next few months. I've been checking out some of the bits and pieces on your YouTube channel and I'm sure we'll have some of our listeners do the same. So, if anyone has enjoyed this episode, make sure to jump across the iTunes and leave us your reviews, some loving the comments and any questions you might have to Tyson. Thank you very much. Tyson: Awesome, thanks so much. Thanks so much for having me Josh.  

Tips for Automating Your Business With Chatbots Josh: So I've got Mike here from Chatbot Agency, and as everyone knows, I'm all about automation. The one thing that everyone needs to do in their business is automate, automate, automate, and he's got a fantastic product, a fantastic system, that allows for you to create something that you would never have been able to do 20, 30 years ago. He's able to create the human conversation in a digital world. Now tell me Mike, why did you get into this? Get more tips for automating your business with chatbots at dorksdelivered.com.au Mike: Well Josh, great question. I was a Facebook Ads dude. And we used to drive a lot of traffic from Facebook into landing pages, and based on the analytics and the backend material that we were looking at, at least 50% who were clicking on the ad weren't actually making it to the landing page. Obviously, because they load too slow and when they get there they're going to have to put their details in. So capturing leads meant that out of the 50% that was left there, we might end up, luckily, and this is being conservative, we might end up with 15 or 20% that might actually put their email address in. Now, back in the late 90s while mucking around with automation WeChat, we built a platform whereby we were going to put chat in there. We left that on the back burner, and then as soon as Mark Zuckerberg opened up the API for Facebook Messenger, we thought, "Wow, I wonder if this could respond the same way SMS marketing works," because we were all mobile marketers. So we mucked around for about a week and we actually got Messenger to respond back to us and we thought, "Hey shit, we're on a winner. How cool is that?" So getting back to the initial bit, Facebook Ads played a big part. So now we're able to take them from Ads into Messenger and actually start having a conversation with people and find out exactly what they really want from that business. Josh: Cool. So I guess your end goal is to turn someone without a face, that doesn't know your business into giving someone a face around your business and their business and making sure they start doing business with your business. So that'd be right? Mike: That would be absolutely spot on. Remember Josh, every transaction starts with a conversation. That's in the real world. Josh: You don't want to remove that personal touch. And that's something that I think is really, really good with the way that you've actually created your application because you're able to get the details, get the nitty gritties, the bits and pieces they need to get in a very, very human way. Would you agree? Mike: Totally, absolutely. You still have to remember, it's still machines talking, so we don't want it to make it too human. But at the end of the day, mate, if we can start bringing in tomorrow's prospects overnight, so when you start work first thing in the morning, you've got a nice bag of prospects sitting in there you just have to convert and then you can go knock off and go home at 10 o'clock. Josh: And that's ultimately what it's all about. If you've got a money-making engine that's just driving income, if you've got the ability to have a 24-hour salesperson, the ability to make sure that when you've created something and you've created a process, people are able to follow that process and you've got people falling through and into your funnel, filling up your funnel and you're removing any of the friction such as, as you said, like slow landing pages, you're removing those, you're making sure they have the least friction, a frictionless transaction, you're going to be having conversions go through the roof and as you said, like a 20% conversion on landing page is pretty good. A bad landing page, two to 6% in my experience and you're going up to 20, 22% in a very, very good landing page. So what are you finding your conversions currently? Mike: So we look at from the ad, we measure the click on the ad and we're effectively converting into the funnel between 20 to 50% of those. So if we have a hundred people click on the ad, we can put 20 to 50 those into my funnel. Josh: Okay. So that's pretty good. That's definitely much, much better. And the research that I've done and I'm going to be honest to everyone here listening in podcast land, I am a novice when it comes to this, but I will say straight away they are very good conversions. Now, if we rewind 20 years and as Mike was saying, he was here in the SMS boom and using some mobile marketing stuff. If we rewind 20 years, the effectiveness of email marketing, I would say, is on parity now with what you'd be having with Facebook Messenger marketing. Would you say I'm talking out my arse? Or where are you at? Mike: Yeah, I would say you're talking out your arse. Messenger is a new beast. So especially when we're talking mixing with Ads, putting the bot inside your website, all that kind of stuff. Obviously it's going to be a bit higher. Messenger, actually, we're getting a higher rate with Messenger that we were with SMS. Josh: Sweet. Mike: Especially when you're pushing messages back out. The read rate is somewhere between the 90 to 95% mark. So the strategies we're educating our clients on is getting them into your list, and then use Facebook sponsored messaging from Messenger to pull them back in. And that's where it's going to become a little bit different down the track because that's the way Facebook wants us to go. We believe that that's going to be way out the way what your gang did to get from SMS. Josh: All right. So hold on. You're saying that not only can you attract them through Facebook using their APIs, you're able to push them into your CRM system from the CRM system, then able to enable any other automated marketing systems that whether it be through email or anything else, is that right? Mike: Oh, absolutely. No, no. If you can pull the data in you can use any CRM you like. What I'm suggesting here is if it's in Messenger, purely Messenger in your inbox, what we're able to do is push back out to those Messenger users through Messenger. Mike: So we're getting a higher conversion rate there. So what we're able to do inside Messenger is, imagine this. You can build the best email newsletter along with the best website pushing it out through SMS. That's what Messenger is all about. Josh: And it's on an engaging platform that everyone's on. Mike: That's right. And the more you push through it as an engagement, Facebook's AI algorithm was learning. So Facebook now knows where to point the rest of the people who are thinking and talking about the same thing. Josh: So that's pretty awesome. And I'd say everyone knows what the bell curve is. There's the adoption cycle and then the replication cycle. And then the people that finally jump on at the last stage there. I would say this is something that isn't like a wait until you hear your friend about doing it. Do it now, because you want to be at the start of the adoption cycle. Mike: Absolutely. Right now, Josh, mate, the number is out. Less than 1% of all business pages have an automated chatbot. There's a lot of business pages out there. There's about 600 million, I think that's the last wacko number they've come up with. They're telephone book numbers of course. But this means there's a lot of opportunities for small business to actually stake their client the same way if you were able to state your claim in 1995 on the internet. Josh: Well, I think that that that speaks worlds of words. If you're able to get on board now and have this done for your business, you're going to be seeing huge advantages. You're going to be seeing massive, massive lead generation. Your lead funnel's going to be full, really. Mike: Oh, mate, this is the simplest lead funnel ever invented for mankind. Josh: I don't need you to go through process and bits and pieces because as everything that lives on the internet lives forever, but my understanding is at the moment it's got a reasonably affordable entry price. Is that right? Mike: Yeah. I think he used a really good number there. 2020. If you want someone to professionally build it for you, you're looking at 2020. If you want to do it yourself, you can get on there for about 20 bucks and try and build it yourself. Knock yourself out. Anyone can do it. It all depends on, okay, what's your end goal? Do you want to actually turn it into a tool and generate leads and make money and do it the right way, or do you want to try and suffer and do it yourself? Mate, the videos are there, you can do it yourself. We'll provide all those videos. You just value your time, brother. Josh: I guess that comes down to one of the other episodes we've had there on money and being frugal. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's not. It depends on what you charge yourself out at and making sure that you work out that's an acceptable rate. What I can say is if you check out Chatbot Agency, you're going to be able to see an amazing result with the professionalism as well as the speed to delivery, to be honest. And when you get that up, tell me, what have you seen? What's the fastest time you've seen a lead generated after you've had one of your bots be thrown up? Mike: Mate, I love telling this story. I do training for marketing people and it's basically a three or four-hour process, where we go through, we train them how to build the chatbot. So here we are teaching marketing people how to actually set up Facebook Ads and do their targeting. I assisted this young lady with putting together a real estate listing ad for her client. She must've been charging the guy three grand, but she only paid me 900 bucks. Josh: The story of my life. Mike: Yeah. So I trained her how to do it all herself and by the time she left my office and she was on the City Cat heading home, this is within an hour of running it, she had a phone call from the real estate agent going, "What is going on? My inbox is killing me. What am I meant to do now?" So that was within an hour. Josh: So there's no reason why you don't want to grow your business. You've got to jump on this. It's 2020. This is a new technology. You've got to be jumping onto it. Do you have anything else that you'd like to add before we round up this episode for today? Mike: Mate, I reckon, look, if you're a small business right now and you're not on Facebook, I suggest you do it, because it's going to be hanging around for a while now. There are so many people on the platform. Josh: It's no longer Myspace, is it? Mike: No. This has gone way past Myspace and it's probably the best platform where you can target to the right audience from interest-based, and it's actually pretty good fun. Josh: Cool. So everyone hear that? If you'd like chat bots, chat bot automation or anything like that, makes sure to jump onto Chatbot Agency and you'll be able to get some really, really cool deals thrown through there. I might even be able to get a link here, a specialised link that you'll be able to jump across and check out. It may maybe a cool deal from Dorks Delivered across to you guys. If you've enjoyed this episode, make sure to jump across to iTunes, leave us some love and stay good. Enjoy 2020.  

Tips to Stop Customers Cancelling   As time goes on, different trends appear to emerge. One of the things that we've been seeing is people cancelling a lot. I've got someone here that I'm going to be talking to from Perfectly Beautiful. Her name's Sarah and I'm going to be talking about if she has any customers and if she's frustrated with them cancelling on her. So Sarah, have you ever had anyone cancel on you? Read more about Tips to stop customers cancelling: https://dorksdelivered.com.au/blog/482-tips-to-stop-customers-cancelling Sarah: Yes, I sure have. Occasionally, we get people booking in for phone calls and when I call them up they won't answer the phone call so pretty much that I suppose is cancelling on on us. Josh: It's a bit annoying and I can imagine when they do that, it means that you're left at a dead end. You've spent some time, put it aside. You've already diverted that chunk of your life and everyone knows time is money and we've only got time in our life and that's the only thing that has value, really, so when they cancel that and you're going to be on the phone to them for 10, 15, 20 minutes and then they don't, what do you normally do with your time? Sarah: Well first of all, I'll usually start off by sending them a text message to say that we have called and if we can arrange another time to chat with them because usually they are interested in booking, so we don't really want to lose them and just leave them alone. We do that and then usually I'm kind of in the office anyway, so I'll just continue working and doing whatever I'm doing. Maybe sometimes they'll call back because them themselves might've forgotten about it and be in a meeting or in the car at the time. We then just hope that in some way they respond back to us, which they usually do, which is good. Then we'll just give them a call back at another time. Josh: Do you think that the reason for people, maybe cancelling or forgetting to be there to answer the phone when you've booked that in, might be not as much because they're millennials, but just because we have been put into a position where we've got too many things that we're having to juggle. There's so many distractions. We're driving to work. Obviously, we've got Facebook here and we've got Snapchat there or what do you think the reason is that they're forgetting the appointments? Sarah: Well, I think because especially a lot of people I work with are brides, so they're at a stage where they're in the craziness of organising a wedding. They sometimes will organise so many appointments that they might just simply forget about it. I suppose they might be in their downtime where they're sending out their emails and doing all their wedding planning and then forget that they actually just booked in an appointment. Sometimes it's not always their fault. We know that people are always busy, but yeah. I think our life is just busy in general. Josh: I absolutely agree, brides are busy people. That's why people call them bridezilla, I guess. With business owners, it's about the same so you're also a busy person, so your time and their time is both valuable and lining that up ... I know that you've got a couple of pretty cool tools that you use in your business to try and create calendar appointments and things like that. What have you found works and what doesn't work? Sarah: At the moment, I'm using Calendarly and in their email, they can click on that to organise a time so that will actually show my availability. If I'm, myself, busy with something, I make sure that it's in there so they're not wanting a call at that specific time. Then it shows that kind of when we're both free to sit down and have a chat. I kind of usually will allow my days that I know I'm going to be in the office all day and my days are going to be quite freed up so then I can have a proper chat to them and take the time to actually talk to them and if they aren't available, then organise another time during that time of the day. Josh: Cool and obviously in life, shit happens. Sometimes people cancel. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes it all works out well. Sometimes they don't have reception or the kids are home sick and they don't have the chance to to talk to you obviously. What do you find the trend is once they've got a deposit put down? Do you find that they cancel as often or have you ever had issues with people changing around or moving their appointments or adjusting things after you've had some sort of financial money come into the equation? Sarah: No, so with our bookings we take a deposit from them so then we know that they're secured and they're locked in. I feel like this stops them from cancelling at the last minute because they already have money invested into it and they feel trust in us that we're definitely going to be there because they've also got money invested into it. We don't really get any cancellations when people have put a deposit down because they know that it's all locked in and secure and we actually get people adding on people, which is actually more of a benefit than a loss. Josh: At the moment, I know your business is still in its infancy, but in one way or another, you've been in business for awhile and you've really just gone gangbusters over the last 12 months, but at the moment you've had no cancellations whatsoever after they've put finance down? Sarah: No, I haven't. Been lucky enough. No one's had a wedding been cancelled just yet so I'm lucky that I've had to do every wedding. Josh: Cool. Okay. So I guess that goes to say that the way that you should structure your business to make sure people are not cancelling is to make sure they've got some hand in the game, make sure that they're in a position that they have something to lose so that they don't cancel. I know myself, I've had had speaking events, we've had 140, 180 people registered and we've had 80 rock up and I find nearly every time it's only the free events that have such a terrible ratio as opposed to the events where someone has to put down even something small like $10 and they're going to rock up because they don't want to see that money lost and they wouldn't have registered for the event anyway. I definitely think making sure that they've got some sort of finances in there that they're holding up their money makes a big difference and it all comes down to the person. I'm sure if something terrible happened to a bride or something like that, that you're doing makeup for, you'd be understanding of that and help them out. Yeah, I think that's interesting stuff. Did you have anything else to add? Sarah: No, that's all. Josh: That's wonderful. So that was Sarah from Perfectly Beautiful and hopefully you don't have any frustrated customers cancelling on you and these tips have helped a bit. Make sure that they've dropped some finances down. Use some tools such as Calendarly, and you should be pretty good. I would love to hear how you stop customers cancelling on you and make sure to leave some comments there in the iTunes and leave us some feedback. Stay good.  

Special Interview with Dan from Pasfield Plumbing Josh: Good morning. Good morning on this wonderful morning that is this morning, and I'm here with Dan and he's going to introduce himself and why he started business. So Dan, tell us a bit about your business. Dan: Howdie. We started our business for getting some freedom. Josh: Yeah, cool. And that's a great reason. A lot of people decide to start business to either get more money or do something different or get some more freedom or be able to at least choose their working hours. And my understanding is you're trying to build a family as well? Dan: That's correct. Yeah, we've got one daughter and that's probably enough for us. Josh: Enough? Enough, definitely, I'd say. That's one more than me and I can totally say that's enough. I've got 10 nieces and nephews and no way would I want to have one full time at the moment. Too much other cool stuff to be doing. But you're still managing to make time to be able to spend time with your family and still manage the business at the moment? Dan: Yeah, we are. I mean, obviously we're in the building stages of our business, so we are time poor. We would like more time, but we know that comes with more time and development on the business. Josh: Yup, yup, yup. It's always a bit of a battle, especially when you have to wear multiple hats and you have to be the salesman, the businessmen, the every man or woman. You can be all these things, all at once, and then still have time to be a dad and a husband. So balancing that can always be difficult. Knowing, I guess, that you need to balance it gives you the ability. Being aware of it lets you at least put your time into different containers. And that's what we're all about, is all about automation and making sure you're getting your time back. So you've got your first employee as well, which is really exciting times. It's exciting stuff. And what would you like to see come in your business in the next 12 months? Dan: Next 12 months ... more workflow from the customers that we would like to see. More private customers, more people who ... Mr. and Mrs. Jones, who call up through the website or whatever platform and they have problems and we're here to help kind of thing. Josh: Cool. Dan: We'd like to grow our team with one more plumber on hand and we would also like a bit more time for us- Josh: Yep, yep. That's all really, really good goals. And do you know what you'd like to see out of those things first? Like, I guess a marketing approach first and then cruise onwards from there? Dan: Hundred percent. Yeah. So we can't really move forward with our goals until somebody comes on to help, another plumber, but once we have that other plumber, then we'll be able to drop back a few hours per week and focus on getting the website built. Josh: Yeah. Cool. Awesome. That's really good stuff. So you've been in business now about two years or so, coming on two years? Dan: Yeah. Correct. Josh: Yup. And what would you say for anyone out there starting their business or not even started. They've just got this brain fart in their head and they want to see something happening with it. What would you say is the advice that you would give them? Dan: Forget any opinion or idea that you have as being the only way. Be open-minded. Listen with two ears. Speak with one mouth and be ready to work very hard. Josh: Yep. Yep. I could not agree more. As I was saying earlier, it's kind of like you have to choose. If you're happy working full time, would you be happy to work double full time, working an 80-hour shift, knowing that you're building up this fantastic thing that's going to flourish into the future? It reminds me a bit of what we call the bamboo story, which it goes that you plant a seed and it takes up to five years for that seed to really take off, and you plant a seed and you're watering it, you're nurturing it. Anyone else would be looking at you like, "You're stupid. Why don't you just go plant something else that's actually started to grow quickly?" But then, after five years, it goes from growing only a few inches to 80 feet in a matter of months. And that's what it is all about, being a business, I think. You need to know that you need to plant these seeds and really need to push forward, knowing that you've got good common sense goals. Because if you end up shooting and you're not aiming at anything, you're not going to hit whatever your target was. Dan: 100 Hundred percent. You need to have goals. You need to know that the moment that you're in the early stages that that's not going to be permanent. You know, it is exactly the bamboo story. You know, you're growing at the start and you can't expect to all of a sudden become self employed or be the boss and then earn the big bucks or, you know, achieve the goals that you want. It takes a lot of time. That's why not everyone becomes self employed. Josh: That's exactly right. And the people that do sometimes have very unrealistic expectations, and that's why businesses fail in the first 12 months and in the first five years, in the first 10 years, and all these other different metrics that you hear about. They just don't hang around long enough or they had very unrealistic expectations. I've got a friend who's come to me and he said, "Oh, Josh, I've got this fantastic idea for an app." And I talked to him and he goes, "Oh, but you can't steal my idea." And I'm like, "Well, you haven't really ... ". It's like saying, "I've got this fantastic idea for a new type of wood." I say, "Okay, cool, but you have nothing or no practice or process in here to allow for this to happen." But he wants to have his million idea purchased with just being two sentences on paper. And that comes down to I guess all the planning around your business and making sure that you've done the proper planning and you have a business plan. You've scoped things out and you've done a SWOT analysis and things like that. But more importantly, knowing that that needs to be reviewed and that no way sticks and is the one thing. Did you make a review at the start of business, whenever you first started, a couple years ago? Dan: Yes. Yes, we did. Josh: Have you gone back and reviewed that recently? Dan: We have and the fact that we had a review, we had goals to reflect back on and we kept that on the wall in our office. So we see them every day and we work towards them and we had our champagne moments when we achieved those goals. Yeah. You have to have your goals clear and you have to know them and you have to see them every day and in those moments when it's so hard and you're like, "What am I doing? Should I give up?", you need to look at those goals and you need to punch forward. Josh: Absolutely. And keeping in mind the goals, but also that your life circumstances change, your knowledge changes. A lot of people that we help out in business, they start off as a technician and they're looking to grow their business. And as I've said, you can't really do both. You're only one person, or two people, depending on the size of the business, and you can't just go and jump in and expect to be able to have 40, 60 billable hours and then still be growing the business. And I know from myself how I've gone through those growth pains over the years. So it's important to have those goals, but know that what you've written there, it can be adjusted. If you didn't get the jet ski by the time you had the business for two years, it's fine. You can adjust that and make it the three-year goal and then know that you've achieved some other things. And write down the things that you achieve, even though it may not have been on the original scope. Like, maybe you've decided to do this really cool documentation system or marketing thing you weren't going to be doing before, or some of the stuff ... we're talking about the quoting and lead generation stuff ... and maybe doing that is more important and is going to ultimately lead to a bigger, better goal. We have more bamboo instead of just one shoot growing 80 foot in the air. Dan: That's right. Hundred percent. Josh: Well, it's been really great speaking with you and I've enjoyed our time here. And if you do have any plumbing requirements around Southeast Queensland, don't feel afraid. We'll chuck the contact details on this blog article and in the description below. If you do have any questions or have any needs, feel the love to send us some feedback there on iTunes. Enjoy and stay good!  

This is a special episode courtesy of the Dorks Delivered Youtube channel where Josh interviews Scott Aurisch about his life in business and what motivates him. Josh Lewis and Scott from NRG Boost Fitness talk about taking the plunge in business in the fitness industry. Watch this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX1YaTk2bl0&t=22s Josh: I've got Scott here from NRG Boost Fitness and today we're going to be talking about taking the plunge in business. My understanding is you've been in business for a while and about 12 months ago, you decided to go for some brick and mortar. Scott: Yeah, exactly right. I've been in the fitness industry now for over 20 years but in business for myself for coming up to 8 years, and very close to 12 months in my own premises. Josh: Right. Are you loving it? Scott: Absolutely loving it. It's probably been one of the most tiring years of my life but certainly the most fulfilling, from a professional standpoint. Josh: I think it's a big discipline thing. You get your own business and you take a plunge and you do something that you're thinking, should I or shouldn't I, and if you take the risk, sometimes against all odds, and it's not that you fail, you don't fail, you make sure you don't fail. Scott: Exactly right. You sort of get rid of that safety net and you're just forced to step up and it's an enormous growth experience and I'm really pleased that I did. Josh: That's cool. And has there been any milestone moments over the last 12 months that really stood out as a, ‘I've made it’? Scott: Yeah! Probably no one moment, just lots of little moments along the way, where, when you do take a moment to reflect back on where things were... Pretty much 12 months ago was when I was in the planning phase for opening here, which all came together super quickly. Once I've made the decision to make this happen, things just seemed to fall into place, which is something we might talk about a little bit later on, but as the year has unfolded, just sometimes when I'm training somebody that I've built a good relationship with, in some cases over the years, but in some cases, people I've just met this year, it's in those moments that I realise what I've achieved, when you make those connections with people. So that's what I mean by what some people would regard as little things, rather than big milestones, but they're the most rewarding moments for me. Josh: That's cool. Prior to running out of brick and mortar, how was your business beforehand? Scott: I was working out of a local gym and I'd been there for several years, and it wasn't that I got to a point where I was unhappy, but I did feel like I wasn't growing professionally anymore, and I just needed a new challenge that would present that opportunity for growth and freedom as well. Josh: Cool, cool. I guess you haven't looked back. You're 12 months in. What sort of aspirations do you have for the next 12 months? Scott: Yeah, I guess I haven't looked too far ahead, which is probably something I need to get a little bit better at, but certainly, consolidating what I've achieved in the first 12 months, and I think one of the keys to that is building good relationships with my client base but also other industry associates that I have contact with. So I'll definitely be looking to build on that over the next 12 months in a way that is sustainable in terms of my energy and my own health and wellbeing because, as you would know, when you work for yourself, you can get a little bit focused on the business and some of your personal life can tend to suffer. Josh: Absolutely, it can go by the wayside. Scott: Yeah. Josh: It becomes a very addictive, very addictive thing, having your own business. Scott: It certainly can, and in my situation, where I'm preaching to people about achieving balance in your life. It's really important that I practise what I preach and set the example of having a balanced lifestyle where I'm looking after myself and looking after my personal relationships outside of work as well because your business might be firing on all cylinders but if some of those other areas of your life begin to suffer, that's going to impact on you as an individual at some point, and then ultimately affect your business. Josh: Yeah, completely agree. It's all about having balance. Otherwise, the whole system breaks. Scott: Yeah, that's right. Josh: If you were to go back to the moment while you were working for someone else and you didn't have your own business, can you remember what made you take the step and take the leap towards doing everything, wearing all the hats, and doing the payroll, doing your taxes, doing everything underneath your own banner? What was the catalyst towards the move? Scott: Yeah, probably just a couple of little moments. Again, it was nothing major. There was no massive falling out with anyone at my previous workplace, but just piecing a few things together and just some little frustrations and I thought it was time to take control of things myself and when you run your own business, you get to do things your way and you are absolutely responsible for everything that occurs. So, yeah, it was nothing major and just a couple of little things and I do distinctly remember in those moments thinking, yeah, I've got to do this because there was a lot of thought that went into it beforehand but when I eventually made that decision, like I said earlier, it all just fell into place. Josh: That's cool, that's cool. You do a lot of stuff for communities, and I understand you've gone back to the school that you went to and you've helped them out. Tell me more about what happened there. Scott: Well, I was fortunate enough to be contacted by the Logan PCYC who run a lot of great programmes and one of them is called the Deep Blue Line programme, which is in association with Queensland Police, where they visit local high schools and present an 8 to 10 week programme to a group of students of various ages. I was invited to come along and speak for one particular week about the importance of exercise and nutrition and, yeah, it was pretty cool. But one of the schools I got to visit was my own old high school that I had not stepped foot inside for 25 years and it was my Back to the Future! Josh: That would have been weird. Scott: It really was. It was a really cool experience, though. The place had not changed. It had been really well maintained over that time but it was just like going back to how I remember it. And then to go back as an adult, as a professional, and feel like you're adding some sort of value to a place that played a role in your own development. It was very fulfilling for me, and I've been back a couple of times since as well. Josh: Was there any old teachers that you saw and you were like, ‘Oh, no… Sir, what are you doing?’ Scott: No, no. Very much a turnover of staff but while I was at the school office, I did look at the boards with all the photos and the honour boards with the kids' names and that sort of thing. And just to tie that into NRG Boost Fitness here, I've actually got three old schoolmates as current clients. Josh: That's cool. Scott: Yeah. So that's also something that I find very rewarding as well and makes me feel really good. Obviously, we all run businesses to earn money. Josh: Ideally, yeah. Scott: Yeah. You've got to earn a living. You've got to support yourself and your family, but for me, I think one of the keys to my success is that I don't focus on just the dollars. It's about a lot more than that. It's about personal fulfilment and things that make me happy and the fact that I've got three guys that I'd probably fallen out of contact with a little bit over the years but have reconnected with in recent years. They're now current clients, and I'm helping them improve their lifestyles. Josh: That's cool. So you've been in business for a long time, you've got your bricks and mortar now, have a rough idea of where you're wanting to go. If you were to do it all again, would you change the order of events or what would you do differently? Scott: I honestly don't think I would change a great deal. One of the things I think I got right from the outset was as professionals, as entrepreneurs, you would have to read a lot about the importance of beginning with the end in mind, having a clear picture of what you want your business to look like, and it was the clearest example in my life where I was able to come up with a very clear picture of how I wanted this place to look, how I wanted this place to operate, and doing that, and putting effort into getting those details right from the start, allowed me to almost follow that to the letter and it was amazing watching that unfold. To have ideas go from just words on paper through to, a little over two months later, from when I first decided to undertake this venture and then to actually open my doors, it was literally two months, but the reason it was able to happen so quickly is because I was clear on what I wanted and things literally just fell into place. There was no forcing or pushing. Things just sort of fell my way. Josh: That's very, very serendipitous, or lucky, I guess, or fortunate that that worked out that way. Scott: Yeah. So just to answer your question in fewer words, basically, beginning with the end in mind was the most important thing that I did and I would recommend that for anybody else looking to do anything similar. Josh: Cool. A lot of people get into business and they think, ‘Oh, in two years' time I'm going to retire. I'm going to make a million dollars,’ and have these huge thoughts of grandeur and they don't necessarily make the appropriate planning before jumping in and understanding the depth of the water and realising how deep it goes and how much is actually involved in running your own business, especially when you're starting up and you need to be the person wearing all of the different hats. You need to be the technical person, you need to be the administration, you need to be the marketer, the salesperson, you do all of the different things all at once, and as you said, you want to have a balance in your business, you want to have a balance in your life. Was there any steps that you went, ‘Oh, shit, I need to learn more about this,’ or, ‘I need to learn more about that,’ or things that you went, ‘Oh, wasn't expecting that to be a hurdle?’ Scott: Yeah. Not really. That's probably another thing I think I got right—the scale of the venture that I took on, I think, was appropriate for that first leap. But the point you make about a lot of business people taking the plunge but not realising the depth of the water they're diving into, in my industry it might be somebody that says, ‘Oh, I can run a gym,’ and they take on this big operation and then it's not until they're in it and they realise what an undertaking it is. So I was pretty happy to start with a personal training studio that's literally a couple of hundred metres around the corner from home, so it suited my lifestyle and I've been really comfortable with the size of the jump, so to speak. There have certainly been things that I've had to learn as I went along but that was the whole point to begin with—to learn new things and challenge myself. Josh: I think it's very sensible the way that you've gone about the business because, as you said, a lot of people might just go in and they jump straight into a lease but they don't have any clientele and they have no idea about marketing. They just think they get some business cards and then they will come, build it and they will come, and that's not how it really works. I think it's great that you're in the IT world, they call it agile development, where you try and make the smallest profitable item first and then you build upon that. A good example would be Uber. So you don't start with an autonomous vehicle that's driving everyone, tens of thousands of autonomous vehicles driving everyone around countries. Instead, you start with an app that allows for people to take in that step until they've saved up enough money to then be able to move onto the next ventures, and Elon Musk does the same things. Josh: And you've done the same thing in where you've built up your clientele, you've created a rapport and the message is strong and your social content in strong, and the community that you've created around your business is very strong. Different events that I've been to with Scott have been 60, 70 people upwards. Your opening day here, I don't know how many people you would have had here, it was stacks, so it shows the belief and the message that you've instilled in all the people that you have come here is very strong and the allegiance of people. Scott: Well, I think, getting back to one of your earlier questions about community, I've done things outside of here for the broader community, but I placed great emphasis on the importance of building a community within your business, in much the same way that a café might do the same thing. There are hundreds of cafes, Brisbane wide, and what makes you choose one over another? It’s generally the one where you feel most welcome and almost like it's a second home, and so that's what I try to do here, again, not in a forced kind of way but just in an organic way, and it's been another very satisfying thing for me to observe, friendships being formed and I know that some of my group members socialise outside of here, that didn't know each other previously but they met through NRG Boost Fitness and that's sometimes more rewarding than dollars. Josh: I think just, straight on the friendship situation, it's something, it's a place... I come here myself and it's a place that I feel very comfortable in, and I've brought multiple friends here because I find it's a good time to be able to catch up and see people while having a workout, as opposed to catching up and having a beer and a pizza, which is lovely as well, but it's not as great for your waistline and your health, and I can definitely say you...we, two and a half years ago, met for the first time and I told you my goals and you said, ‘That's not achievable’, in nicer words, in the timeline that I wanted to achieve it in. You said, ‘Look, see how you go’, I think, and I tried really hard, twisted my ankle, stopped trying as hard for a while, but I continued to persevere and 12 months later I achieved the goal that I wanted to, the weight that I wanted to, the percentage of body weight that I wanted to, and I'm very impressed with the results I was able to get from you. But it was not just the journey of the weight. It was also the friendship that was made along the way, and a great example would be Scott coming over and surprising me of a lunchtime and taking me over to see the jolly old Saint Nick. Scott: That's right, yeah. Coming up to a year ago. Josh: Yeah, that's right. We were able to sit on Santa's lap together which was… Scott: For the first time in probably 30 years! Well, for me, anyway! Josh: For you, yeah! And I thought it was great that you definitely went above and beyond and I don't think there would be many business owners, or especially PTs, that would do that level of commitment towards the friendships and the bonds that were created within the community, so it's a testament to the way you create your business. Scott: Thanks, Josh. Josh: I'd like to cut across to a quick video that discusses more about taking the plunge and we'll talk more about that afterwards. It's big, it's wet, it's wild. That's right. It's Niagara Falls, and if you've ever been here or any other large waterfall, you might have wondered, what would it be like to just jump in? So, there was this time when Sam Patch, who was the first daredevil to take the plunge over Niagara, all the way back in 1829. He shot to fame and his slogan became part of a popular slang. The slang was, ‘Some things can be done as well as others.’ It's a great line. You could take it to mean that our achievements are equal, or you could also take it like we are trying to do our own thing as best we can, or maybe he was telling us that we can do those things that others think are impossible. So what about you? What's your Niagara Falls? What's that big challenge that you are scared to take on? Well, let me tell you, it's often much easier than you think once you just commit to it. For Sam Patch, he was actually pretty disappointed with the crowd that turned up for his first successful attempt. There was bad weather and he'd been delayed, so he announced that he would do it again a few days later. This time, 10,000 people turned up and he cemented his place in history. So, if old Sam can jump off Niagara Falls twice, there's nothing to stop you taking the plunge. Whoa! Josh: Good to be back. I thought that was pretty good. So we went through that you can sort of see sometimes it's not the first time, the first step, but just taking the plunge and just being the person that commits to that can really make a big difference in your business. So it's cool that you've gone through and you've done that and you've experienced that firsthand and you didn't, in a sink or swim situation, you were able to swim and, if anything, swim very, very well. Scott: Yeah. Well, just one point I'd like to add to that, Josh. As any person should do when making a decision to go into business or not, you're going to come up with your list of pros and cons, and you'll have your moments of bravery and you'll have your moments of fear and ultimately, for me, it came down to a fear of financial risk and when I really thought about it, I then fast-forwarded to when I'm 80 years of age and I look back, and if I hadn't done this, what would have been the reason that I didn't and would I be comfortable with that decision? And if it was just a money thing that held me back, I think I would look back and regret it and be disappointed that I wasn't bolder at the time. So, yeah, I think it's a useful exercise sometimes, to fast-forward to when you're in your final years, will you wish that you had have taken more risks? Josh: Definitely, I agree completely. I've always looked at it like, who would you like to see standing there at your funeral and... as dark as that is, who would you like to see standing there, at your funeral, and what was the reason you were remembered? And hopefully, there's a legacy that you've left behind, whether that be children or even just a nice smile in helping someone out and that's there some memory that you've left there. So it's work your way back from there. Scott: Yeah. And it might seem a little bit dark to some people but it's an extremely powerful exercise to take yourself through as well. Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Definitely. So what would you say would be the life tip or quote that you live by? Scott: Well, there are probably a few but one that I have been thinking about recently is not being a victim in life and basically taking absolute personal responsibility for your life circumstances. I just believe that as soon as you blame somebody else or other people for your situation, is when you give away your power. Sure, bad things are going to happen in your life and some will be other people's fault, but it's how you respond to that really makes the difference. So I really try to remember that all the time and take the appropriate action. So there might be people out there who are unhappy with their job and it's as simple as changing jobs. I understand that it's scary in that moment but if you're truly unhappy, you have the power to find a better job. Josh: Absolutely. Scott: And if you're overweight, you can continue blaming this, blaming genetics, whatever the case might be, but ultimately, if you eat better and exercise, you're going to improve that situation. Josh: Absolutely. And it's all about baby steps and getting the understanding, sometimes understanding your weak points and turning them into your strengths or at least having recognition towards them so you know how to work and come out of your comfort circle, to grow into a better person, whether that be through weight loss or a change of job, or a change of marriage, or whatever the situation is, it can all make you a happier you. Scott: Yeah, exactly right, Josh. Josh: Cool. And we're going to do something here. So we're going to do a shout out. You've done really, really well. Public speaking and especially in a global audience, like YouTube, can be scary. It's all imprinted in stone forever. It's going to live on longer than us. This could be our legacy. If nothing else, this is it. Scott: Don't stuff it up. Don't stuff it up! Josh: So you've done really, really well and I really appreciate your time that you've given me today, and I'd like to see if there's maybe another business coach, leader or business that you think would benefit from having a review and that the public would benefit from hearing from. Scott: Yeah, well, certainly one of the best things I've done in recent years in terms of developing my own business expertise, for want of a better term, is I undertook an internship with a business called Create PT Wealth. I attended a free workshop. It was probably over three years ago now, and that, in itself, was a half day, full day workshop that was highly valuable and I took a lot out of that and I realised the position my business, and I'll use the term business fairly loosely because at that time it was a fairly poorly structured business, and it made me realise what work I needed to do to make a real business. Scott: So I then undertook an 18-month personal training business internship and it covered all sorts of things: business systems, marketing, the whole gamut of things. At the time, I could not afford it, well, I told myself that, ‘You can't afford this,’ but something in me knew that I needed to do it and it wasn't an expense, it was an investment in the future of my business. So that was another time where I took the plunge and found a way to afford it and what I learnt in 18 months has been a massive reason behind where I'm at today, in terms of having my own premises and being very happy with my professional life. Scott: So Create PT Wealth is the name of the business and I would strongly recommend that anybody else in the fitness industry or a personal trainer seek them out and see what they can offer your business. Josh: Cool. Is there anybody particular at PT Wealth that stuck out for you? Scott: Yeah, well, certainly both Brad and Jason were both extremely helpful, right from that initial workshop and I also had a business coach, Leanne, through that time as well, that I would check in with, every fortnight, and just have a phone conversation, and it was a good way to be kept accountable. She would set me certain business-related tasks that I would need to report back to her on in the next fortnight and that's a really important thing, is accountability, because sometimes it's easy to make excuses to yourself but when there's somebody else that you've got to report back to, I found that that really kept me on track. Josh: Definitely. Scott: Thank you to Create PT Wealth. Josh: Cool. Well, I think we should all take a deep breath and give yourselves a clap. That's awesome. Thank you very much. Scott: No worries, Josh. Thank you. Josh: Awesome. Read about the interview: https://dorksdelivered.com.au/business-tips/interview-with-scott-aurisch-of-nrg-boost-fitness?highlight=WyJzY290dCJd I hope you enjoyed the episode. Every little bit helps and a small thing that you could do, as a token of appreciation, would be to jump onto iTunes and rate and review to make sure that other people can listen and get the same helpful help that you guys had. Thank you, and keep good.

PC Perspective Podcast #461 - 08/03/17 Join us for AMD Ryzen 3, Threadripper, Logitech Powerplay, and more! You can subscribe to us through iTunes and you can still access it directly through the RSS page HERE. The URL for the podcast is: http://pcper.com/podcast - Share with your friends! iTunes - Subscribe to the podcast directly through the iTunes Store (audio only) Video version on iTunes Google Play - Subscribe to our audio podcast directly through Google Play! RSS - Subscribe through your regular RSS reader (audio only) Video version RSS feed MP3 - Direct download link to the MP3 file Hosts: Ryan Shrout, Jeremy Hellstrom, Josh Walrath, Allyn Malventano Peanut Gallery: Ken Addison, Alex Lustenberg Program length: 1:38:20 Podcast topics of discussion: Join our spam list to get notified when we go live! Patreon PCPer Mailbag #2 - 7/27/2017 PCPer Plays: Star Wars: X-Wing (8/1/17) Week in Review: 0:05:25 The AMD Ryzen 3 1300X and 1200 Processor Review 0:13:50 Fanatec ClubSport Lite Elite: The New "Mid-Range" 0:22:00 A Wireless Mouse That Never Dies: The Logitech Powerplay Wireless Charging System News items of interest: 0:34:40 AMD Radeon RX Vega 64 and Vega 56 Specs, Prices, Power Detailed ASUS Announces Four RX Vega 64 GPUs Headlined By ROG STRIX RX Vega 64 OC Edition 0:54:30 AMD Outs Threadripper 1900X, 8-cores for $549, Details Availability and Preorders 1:00:45 Looks Like Vega Nano is GO! 1:07:30 HTC Vive Standalone VR Headset to expand VR market with low cost, dedicated hardware 1:12:50 Report: Wolfenstein 2 Optimized for AMD Vega with FP16 Shader Support 1:17:00 Western Digital BiCS3 Flash Goes QLC - 96GB per die! Hardware/Software Picks of the Week 1:25:45 Ryan: Logitech G903 1:28:10 Jeremy: Old but still good, ASUS RT-N66U 1:29:25 Josh: Cool pathtracer for Quake 2 1:34:05 Allyn: Things I would have loved to grow up learning / playing (pixel kit): 1 2 http://pcper.com/podcast http://twitter.com/ryanshrout and http://twitter.com/pcper Closing/outro Subscribe to the PC Perspective YouTube Channel for more videos, reviews and podcasts!!