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What does sofrito—a base of herbs and spices used in Puerto Rican cooking—have to do with reimagining business, food security, and conveying a history lesson about a rich and sometimes complex culture? For today's guest, it's everything. If you've ever wondered how to weave your culture, creativity, and calling into one powerful movement... then this episode is the recipe you've been looking for. In this episode, you will hear:   Food has a cultural foundation passed through generations. Cultural identity can be preserved and taught through everyday meals. How to make the best sofrito if you don't have time to cook. Food is more than just food – it's heritage, intention, and a story. The story of the Puerto Rican pasteles is shared. Food choices are power moves, shaping local or global economies. Imagination makes it possible to wear multiple hats and still stay rooted in purpose. You don't need permission to do things differently, just the will and a plan. This episode is brought to you by Fertile Imagination: A Guide for Stretching Every Mom's Superpower for Maximum Impact by Melissa Llarena Audible   Audio Edition: https://www.amazon.com/Fertile-Imagination-Stretching-Superpower-Maximum/dp/B0CY9BZH9W/ref=tmm_aud_swatch_0   Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/Fertile-Imagination-Stretching-Superpower-Maximum/dp/B0CK2ZSMLB   Hardcover: https://www.amazon.com/Fertile-Imagination-Stretching-Superpower-Maximum/dp/B0D5B64347/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0   Or, download a free chapter at fertileideas.com       About Crystal Diaz   Crystal Díaz has spent nearly two decades at the intersection of food, marketing, and cultural advocacy. She co-founded PRoduce, Puerto Rico's digital marketplace for locally grown food. Crystal is also the force behind El Pretexto, the island's first culinary farm lodge, where food and imagination meet 2,600 feet above sea level. A committed advocate for food security, she collaborates with Espacios Abiertos to advance agricultural policy. Crystal holds two master's degrees, including one in Food Studies from NYU. She's been recognized by Fast Company and El Nuevo Día for her creative leadership and impact in the local food movement. Quotes that can change your perspective:  “If you really want to learn about something and you're obsessed about it, there's always ways to learn, to make it happen.” – Crystal Díaz   “With every single meal that we do, with every single snack, everything that we eat, you are impacting economies. And if you want to support your local communities and you want to see them, everybody having a better life, you might want to spend that dollar closer home and making sure that all of the ingredients that are on that food are closer to home so that money stays closer to home.” – Crystal Díaz   “Sofrito is very personal. You know? It's part of how your family has done it… but also learn that there is a lot of history into it. It's not something that we do because we do it. There is a lot of history to it.” – Crystal Díaz   “We are on a little island. We don't have that much territorial extension, so we can't think about our agriculture as other countries that have large extensions of terrains and flats and stuff like that. We need to think about it differently.” – Crystal Díaz   “Puerto Rican food is full of history, is complex enough, is flavorful enough, and varied… so I can pull something like this [a culinary farm lodge] up in Puerto Rico.” – Crystal Díaz SHARE this episode with fellow food lovers, cultural storytellers, and moms on a mission to raise rooted kids. Crystal's insights on local food, identity, and imagination will inspire anyone looking to nourish their family and community from the inside out. Let's keep our culture alive—one pastel, one sofrito, and one big idea at a time. Supporting Resources:   Website: https://www.elpretextopr.com  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/elpretextopr  Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/@elpretextopr/ Subscribe and Review   Have you subscribed to my podcast for new moms who are entrepreneurs, founders, and creators?  I'd love for you to subscribe if you haven't yet.    I'd love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast for writer moms. About Fertile Imagination   You can be a great mom without giving up, shrinking, or hiding your dreams. There's flexibility in how you pursue anything – your role, your lifestyle, and your personal and professional goals. The limitations on your dreams are waiting to be shattered. It's time to see and seize what's beyond your gaze. Let's bridge your childhood daydreams with your grown-up realities. Imagine skipping with your kids along any path – you, surpassing your milestones while your kids are reaching theirs. There's only one superpower versatile enough to stretch your thinking beyond what's been done before: a Fertile Imagination. It's like kryptonite for impostor syndrome and feeling stuck when it's alert!    In Fertile Imagination, you will awaken your sleeping source of creative solutions. If you can wake up a toddler or a groggy middle schooler, then together with the stories in this book – featuring 25 guests from my podcast Unimaginable Wellness, proven tools, and personal anecdotes – we will wake up your former playmate: your imagination!  Advance Praise    “You'll find reality-based strategies for imagining your own imperfect, fulfilling life in this book!” —MARTHA HENNESSEY, former NH State Senator    “Melissa invites the reader into a personal and deep journey about topics that are crucially important to uncover what would make a mom (and dad too) truly happy to work on…even after the kids are in bed.” —KEN HONDA, best-selling author of Happy Money    “This book is a great purchase for moms in every stage of life. Melissa is like a great friend, honest and wise and funny, telling you about her life and asking you to reflect on yours.” —MAUREEN TURNER CAREY, librarian in Austin, TX   TRANSCRIPT   00:00:00 Crystal: Come up with ideas to make it easier for food producers to produce more food because we are in a little island. We don't have that much territorial extension. So we can't think about our agriculture as other countries that have large extensions of terrains and flats and stuff like that. We need to think it differently.  00:00:25 Melissa: Welcome to the Mom Founder Imagination Hub, your weekly podcast to inspire you to dream bigger. Plan out how you're gonna get to that next level in business, find the energy to keep going, and make sure your creative juices are flowing so that this way you get what you really want rather than having to settle. Get ready to discover founders have reimagined entrepreneurship and motherhood.  00:00:47 Melissa: Ever wonder how they do it? Tune in to find out, and stretch yourself by also learning from diverse entrepreneurs who might not be moms, but who have lessons you can tailor about how you can disrupt industries and step way outside of your comfort zone. I believe every mom's superpower is her imagination. In this podcast, I'm gonna give you the mindset, methods, and tools to unleash yours. Sounds good? Then keep listening.  00:01:17 Melissa: So what does sofrito, which is essentially a base of herbs and spices used in Puerto Rican cooking, have to do with reimagining business, food security, and passing along really critical history lessons. Well, for today's guest, it is everything. And if you've ever wondered how to weave your culture, creativity, and calling into one powerful movement, then this episode is the recipe you've been looking for.  00:01:49 Melissa: Welcome to the Mom Founder Imagination Hub. This is your weekly podcast designed to inspire you to dream bigger in your business and your life. Also, to help you find the energy to keep going because how are you going to sustain what's necessary to be big and to keep your imagination flowing so that this way you could feel inspired, lit up like a Christmas tree or Hanukkah candles. I'm your host Melissa Llarena. 00:02:17 Melissa: I'm a mom of three high energy boys. No. They did not get their energy from me. Psyched. They did. I'm also a best selling author of Fertile Imagination and an imagination coach for mom founders who are reimagining what success and motherhood can look like on their own terms, and that's really important.  00:02:34 Melissa: Now, if you've ever stirred a pot of sofrito, you already know this. Right? You know that the blend of flavors tells a deeper story. It tells a story that sometimes has made its way across generations. It preserves a culture, and it does nourish more than just our baby's bellies.  00:02:56 Melissa: So today's guest, I am thrilled to invite Crystal Diaz. Now she's taken the same approach in terms of her business ventures. She's a foodpreneur, culture keeper, I love that, and community builder. She wears four hats and in today's episode we're gonna go through each of those hats. One of which is as the owner of El Pretexto, i.e. The Excuse, a culinary farm lodge in the countryside of Puerto Rico where she serves 100% locally sourced meals and lives her mission every day.  00:03:33 Melissa: She has lots of degrees and an MA in food studies from NYU, which is why if you're watching the video, you could see, I hope, my NYU t-shirt. Hit subscribe if you see it and you love it. Subscribe on YouTube. Hit follow on this podcast. 00:03:53 Melissa: A little bit more about Crystal. She was recognized by Fast Company as one of the most creative people in business in 2022 and was named one of El Nuevo Diaz women of the year in 2023. She's the real deal. In this episode, we're gonna explore how Crystal uses her imagination as her main ingredient, whether it's in terms of the way that she's carving away for Puerto Rico to have its own food centric cultural immersive experience or even by how she decided to commute to NYU from San Juan every single week, which was creative in and of itself, or even in terms of the way that she describes the depth of a very famous Puerto Rican dish.  00:04:43 Melissa: Oh, and side note, I actually have her real life best on the planet, sofrito recipe. My gosh, do not run away, For sure. Check out the sofrito recipe we articulated in this conversation. You're gonna walk away with yummy ideas for how to use your own imagination to nourish your business, your family, and community, and it's gonna be so important even if you're not working in food.  00:05:13 Melissa: So before we dig in, I would appreciate if you hit follow, if you're listening to this on iTunes. Why hit follow? Because every time someone hits follow on iTunes, it tells me that I need to bring more guests with stories like this to the podcast. And I get really excited and when a mom is excited, it is a very good day in her entire home. So go ahead, hit follow. You will absolutely get that dopamine hit that everybody needs or if you're watching this on YouTube, then hit subscribe. I would be so appreciative and again, I will do the dance of joy. Okay. So enjoy the conversation.  00:05:54 Melissa: Crystal Diaz, thank you so much for this conversation on the Mom Founder Imagination hub. We are delighted to have you here. Crystal, just to kind of set off the scenery, why don't you explain to us where you are in Puerto Rico? What's outside your windows? 00:06:10 Crystal: All right. Well, let's… our imagination hub in a car. We are in San Juan, and you drove forty five minutes south, up to the mountains. Now we are in Cayey. I am at El Pretexto, which is also my home, and we are overlooking… we're up in the mountains, 2,600 feet over sea level, overlooking the Caribbean Sea at the south, and all the mountains slowly winding down all the way to the coast. 00:06:43 Crystal: And you will have some crazy chickens surrounding you. In my patio while you are probably sipping a wine or a coffee, depending on the time of the day. Enjoying the view and, surrounded by trees, lush greenery all over the place. And there are gardens on your side, also as well. So you are surrounded definitely by nature and you feel at peace. That's where we are.  00:07:15 Melissa: Oh, okay. Cool. So let's bring that sense of peace to this conversation. I am excited because I'm sure any listener right now who is a mom, has a business, might feel a little frazzled now and again. But right now, for the next thirty minutes, this is a peaceful zone. We are in Puerto Rico right now. 00:07:37 Melissa: Okay. So, Crystal, now I'm gonna ask you an obvious question, as you just described what you are surrounded by in Puerto Rico. But you attended NYU, and I'm just kind of super curious. You could have stayed in New York, let's say. Right? You could have been like this chef at a restaurant in New York City, Michelin star, etcetera, etcetera. But you decided to return home. And so I'm just curious, like, what informed that decision?  00:08:13 Crystal: Well, you will be surprised with my answer because I never left home. I commuted every single week to New York. Coming on to the city, take my classes, back to my home. So for two years, I was traveling every week to New York for one day.  00:08:34 Melissa: Oh my gosh. Yeah. That is so surprising. Okay. So now I'm just curious here. Okay. So you were on a plane. So, usually people complain about their commute. Right? 00:08:48 Crystal: Uh-huh.  00:08:49 Melissa: They have this whole return to work aggravation. Here you are getting on a plane every single week to take courses at NYU. So then let me ask you this other question. So I know that it's a little off track, but now I'm just way curious. Why did it have to be NYU? That's quite the pull.  00:09:13 Crystal: Yeah. Well, my background is in marketing, and I have a BA in Marketing with a Minor in Advertising and Public Relations. Then I worked with a newspaper for fourteen years. So my background is all about business and marketing. Then I did a first master degree here in Puerto Rico, in the University of Puerto Rico, about cultural action and management. And then, I wanted – because at this point, I believe that I am not passionate anymore. I am kind of obsessed with food, and I guess we will get into that later. 00:09:58 Crystal: But, I wanted to learn the policy part of it. And in Puerto Rico, we don't have any program in any of the universities nor public or private, specifically about food, and way less food policies and advocacy and that type of perspective on the food system, which is what I wanted to learn. So that's why I ended up in New York. I decided to do this because it's a direct flight. So it's gonna be a three hours and a half flight going in, then the one hour in the A train until Westport. 00:10:49 Crystal: Even though I know it's intense, it was pretty straightforward. You don't have make a stop then take another plane. And I was studying and reading all my plane hours, so there's no excuse to not complete your assignments, I guess.  00:11:07 Melissa: Yeah. I love that. Okay. So, hey, that is 100% using your imagination because I think a lot of us, myself included, I wouldn't have considered that to be an option in my mind. I still don't. Right? It's gotta be a certain set of circumstances that make that a possibility. But, I love that now that's an idea that we just planted in someone's head. Right? If they really are obsessed. Right?  00:11:35 Crystal: And if you really want to learn about something and you're obsessed about it, there's always ways to learn, to make it happen. And to my point, New York is so expensive that I spend way less money in flight tickets than actually living there.  00:11:56 Melissa: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Okay. So this is really interesting. Okay. So you could have stayed in New York, but you didn't even choose to stay in New York when you were taking classes at NYU. So now you have the whole, like… that's just so that's fascinating, Crystal. You really gobsmacked me right now with that piece of information.  00:12:18 Melissa: So along the same lines of using your imagination and thinking totally out of the box, let me ask you this one question. So, El Pretexto, of course, we'll go into what it is and all of that. But I also wanna understand because on your website, you say that you've traveled the world. Right? So you've seen all these different culinary experiences. And using your imagination and imagining where or how would you imagine Puerto Rico's cuisine fitting into the landscape of world gastro– I can't say the rest of that word, but I know it's a real word.  00:12:57 Crystal: Yes. Well, for me, I love to travel. I am a girl of no luxuries. Right? I don't care about purses or new shoes or jewelry. It's like I don't judge, but I don't care. So where I spend my money and my time, which I can't… money, you can recover it somehow, but time is just one time. You just have every minute that you have.  00:13:27 Crystal: And I like to spend those traveling and getting to know other cultures and exposing myself to other cultures. And I think that those travels have pushed me to understand and appreciate what we have back here at home and also understand the opportunities that we have back here at home. Not everybody is doing it perfectly, but you can definitely learn how it is done in other places. And I'm talking generally. Right? Depending on what you are interested.  00:14:01 Crystal: But you always learn of how the world do things in other places. So, I in my case, I love food and I try to expose myself, not only to eating in good restaurants or good food, but I love to go to markets. I even go to supermarkets every time I travel. I like to visit farms and I noticed, especially in Mexico, you can see this – Peru is developing this a lot and Italy has it all set. 00:14:40 Melissa: On lockdown.  00:14:41 Crystal: But you have these culinary experiences where you get to… expose to their cuisine, with a local chef and and you go to their farmers' markets and you get the whole country but with a special focus in food. And I was like, “You know what? Puerto Rican food is full of history, is complex enough, is flavorful enough, and varied so I can pull something like this up in Puerto Rico.” So that's how one of our offerings about the curated food experiences came to be because I was sure that somebody will have the curiosity to get to know Puerto Rico from its food.  00:15:33 Crystal: So that's how I got into there. And I think that because I am obsessed with the fact that Puerto Rico imports 90% of everything that we eat, I am then focused on cherish and enhance and share that 10% what it can be if we actually put a lot of effort into grow that 10% into 20%, let's say.  00:16:08 Melissa: That's interesting. So okay. So, I mean, I'm not cynical, but, in my opinion, I kind of believe that the person that controls food source kinda controls a lot. And that's not fantastic. And so I'm just wondering from a policy perspective and as you think about this share of stomach or however it's really considered, are you also part of that conversation too? Like, are you actively advocating for that too?  00:16:45 Crystal: Yes. Yes. I always say I have a couple of hats for all those also thinking that you only have to do one thing and one thing only. If you want to do one thing and one thing only, that's okay. But in my case, I am focused on food, but I try to deal with it from different perspectives. So I have four hats.  00:17:09 Crystal: And one of my hats, specifically works with food policy advocacy. And we try to understand the local food policies that are in place, understanding what programs work, what programs doesn't work, and then trying to make it as… to come up with ideas to make it easier for food producers to produce more food. 00:17:41 Crystal: Because we are in a little island. We don't have that much territorial extension, so we can't think about our agriculture as other countries that have large extensions of terrains and flats and stuff like that. We need to think it differently. And I am not against importation. We all have globalized diets, and we love olive oil, and we can't produce that in Puerto Rico. And we love wine, and we can't produce that in Puerto Rico.  00:18:16 Crystal: So it's not like, all the way 100%. That's not what I mean. But definitely, we should aim to have, let's say, half of our stomach-share full of food that is produced locally. Not only because of its nutritional value, but also because it means economic growth and development for our island and our local communities. So every dollar that you spend on food… somebody might be hearing us while they are eating something.  00:18:55 Crystal: So you imagine whatever you're eating right now, let's say it cost you $1. It depends on where the ingredients came from, that dollar went to that place. It depends on where it was processed, part of that dollar went to that place. And then if you bought it in the supermarket or if you bought it in Amazon, to who you gave that share of that dollar.  00:22 Crystal: So with every single meal that we do, with every single snack, everything that we eat, you are impacting economies. And if you want to support your local communities and you want to see them, everybody having a better life, you might want to spend that dollar closer home and making sure that all of the ingredients that are on that food are closer to home so that money stays closer to home. And that's how I see it. 00:19:58 Crystal: How do we make that that share of that dollar that we as consumers have the power to choose where it goes. And, by the way, there are some parts that we have the power and some part we don't have the power. I understand that. But how do we make an effort in whatever way we can to stay as close as possible to our home.  00:20:24 Melissa: So I think you said that… was that one out of your four hats? 00:20:28 Crystal: Yes.  00:20:29 Melissa: What are the other three?  00:20:30 Crystal: Well, El Pretexto, which is a bed and breakfast, is our Puerto Rico's first and only culinary farm lodge. This is my home, but I also welcome guests here. So El Pretexto is my second one. I'm the co-founder of PRoduct, which is a digital marketplace that connects local food producers with consumers directly. We're trying to shorten that food chain and make it easier and convenient to get local products on your home. We deliver island wide. So that's my third hat. And then I have a super small, digital, marketing agency with another partner, and it's all focused on food and beverage. So everything is about food but from different perspectives.  00:21:25 Melissa: Yeah. That's so interesting because it's almost like you have a little supply chain kind of going on. Right? It's like we've got a lot going on, but it's all related to eating, which is essential. But I think it's smart. I mean, you have your little niche there. Huge niche. We keep being hungry, so you're in a good spot, I would say.  00:21:49 Melissa: So let me understand this idea about food and how you saw it as an opportunity for Puerto Rico because it has a rich history. Right? So me as a mom, for example, I'm second generation from a Puerto Rican perspective. As a mom, for me, passing down culture is urgent. It's almost on the verge of extinction, I feel, because of where I am generationally. Like, I'm, quote, unquote, “amongst people that I know I'm not,” quote, unquote, “supposed to know Spanish.” I'm not, quote, unquote, “supposed to literally make rice and beans every day,” which by the way, I don't have to. But my goodness, my children really like their rice and beans. And I am so lazy. So that is all I make because I just want one pot.  00:22:40 Melissa: But anyway, so culture, food, that's the one way that I pass it along. Right? You are what you eat. So guess what? My kids are Puerto Rican and Cuban, at this stage. Yes. They have Dominican in them, but, hey, that's just my culinary preference. So tell me about this idea of culture, Puerto Rican culture. And I would be super curious if you could maybe choose an example of a cuisine or food and just kind of walk us through how that kind of expresses culture or maybe there's a story behind it that is unique to Puerto Rico.  00:23:20 Crystal: Well, for me and my mentor used to be doctor Cruz Miguel Ortiz Cuadra, which was the only food historian in Puerto Rico. He passed two years ago, but I learned so much from him and pretty much I was his daughter. He inherit me all his library, which I have here, home. And, so we discussed this a lot. And I think that we both shared that the ultimate dish that represents the Puerto Rican culture will be the pasteles. For those that doesn't know what a pastel is, it's a tamal like preparation. But the tamales are corn based and they use corn leaves to wrap it up. The pasteles puertorriqueños is made out of a dough made out of root vegetables mainly. 00:24:20 Crystal: It will have bananas and plantains that we got from our African in [inaudible]. It will have pumpkin, which were already with our Taino peoples here in America. It will have yautia, which also was here in Puerto Rico. And then, it will have some pork stew that was brought by the Spanish people. So you have in one dish our full heritage of the three cultures that have conformed the Puerto Rican-ness in just one dish.  00:25:01 Crystal: And then that works too will use, what is the ultimate base of flavor of the Puerto Rican cuisine, which is the sofrito. And the sofrito itself also is a blend of African, Spanish, and Taino ingredients, but it's a bricolage of flavors and smells that then go into the stew that then is used to make the pastel. And the pastel is also representative of the most authentic Puerto Rican soul because el pastel is wrapped as a gift.  00:25:40 Crystal: And if you were poor and there was a lot of poverty in Puerto Rico at some – we still have, but there used to be a lot of poverty back in the days. If you didn't have any resources, monetary resources to gift things, you will make pasteles with the things that are on your patio. You will have that growing up in your patio, in your garden, and then you will do pasteles, and you will gift that to your adult, kids, to your sisters, to your brothers.  00:26:13 Crystal: And so because it's – now we have technology, and now we can use food processors and so on. But back in the day, you had to grate that by hand. So if you have that gift, I am not only gifting you my talent and the products that I grow in my patio, but I'm also gifting my time. So it's a very meaningful way of telling someone that you really care about them. 00:26:42 Crystal: And that's all about Puerto Ricans. We care. We care a lot. We want to share everything that we have. And all the visitors that we have, they all can say that Puerto Ricans are always nice to them. Even if we have people that doesn't speak so much English, they will take you to whatever place you wanted to go, trying to understand you and enjoying our island. So I think that the pastel is representative of all the goodness of the Puerto Ricans.  00:27:16 Melissa: Let's pause for a second. If you've been nodding your head all along while listening to Crystal talk about food as fuel for imagination, then I wanna put this on your radar. My book, Fertile Imagination is for any mom who's ever thought, “I know I'm capable of more, but I don't know where to start.”  00:27:39 Melissa: And as one Amazon reviewer said this of my book, Fertile Imagination, which is all about maximizing your superpower to make your maximum impact, She says this, “It's a non judgmental kick in the butt to start valuing your whole selves and to create a new reality where we combine motherhood with our big dreams. Whether you're chasing an idea during nap time or whispering your big vision,” this is hilarious, “into a spatula, then this book is your creative permission slip.”  00:28:17 Melissa: You're gonna hear stories, especially if you like this conversation with Crystal. You're gonna hear a story as well from a podcast guest that I had here who is a James Beard award winning chef, Gabriele Corcos. And you're gonna learn about how he has really latched on to this idea of novelty as his way to explore new categories of interest in his one beautiful life. So I want to just be sure that you realize that this conversation is the beginning of the process. I wanted you to see through Crystal how if your imagination was reawakened, you can start to reimagine how you approach your own life. And I think that's important.  00:29:04 Melissa: But then the book, Fertile Imagination, goes on and adds some tools that you can actually use to incorporate your imagination into your one divine life. And here's the thing, because you could use your imagination from any place you are in the world, you won't have to hop on a plane and go to any place. You can actually just close your eyes and replug in to the little girl that you once were who had all these beautiful ideas that you wanted to play out in the world and that's what I want for you. 00:29:41 Melissa: So here's what I have for you. Just go ahead to fertileideas.com. If you're driving, if you're running, if you're walking, you could do this in a bit. Just go to fertileideas.com and you could download a free chapter of my book, Fertile Imagination. What's really amazing about that chapter is that that chapter basically takes you to a place where you can go and travel back in time, to that moment when you were most free, to that moment where you had the world totally ahead of you and you were imagining what you wanted for your one divine life. That's what I did when I got on stage at the Magnet Theater in New York City 100 years ago now, so it feels. 00:30:25 Melissa: But I talk about that moment for me in that chapter that you can get for free right now on fertileideas.com. So back to the show. Again, shop the book. This episode is brought to you by Fertile Imagination, every mom's superpower. Go to fertileideas.com. Grab the free chapter. Why not? What are you gonna do? Have an amazing time reading a free chapter? That's the way to set yourself up for success for this summer. All right. Enjoy the rest of the conversation.  00:30:55 Melissa: I've never ever heard of un pastel in that way. I'm just like… it's fascinating because I also think it's… maybe it's just me, but I feel like there's a bit of an acquired taste to it too. Like, for me. Right? When I think about a pastel and I compare it to a tamal, I do not think about a Mexican tamal at all. I think about Cuban. I think about– 00:31:26 Crystal: Yeah. Sure. 00:31:28 Melissa: And for me, it's really fascinating to hear the story behind the pastel in the sense that it's very, very comprehensive. You could… I mean, I bet you there's probably books already. Or maybe you're gonna write a book. Maybe you got a fourth – a fifth hat to wear, right? You can write about pasteles. I mean, it's not a bad gig.  00:31:49 Melissa: But I think it's really interesting. And I think it's a testament to the fact that irrespective of where someone travels to the depth with which they can get to know and appreciate a culture is almost unlimited in a way, right? It's… like, for me and my family, I am not a Disney World person. But I've been to Disney World because it's kinda like, “Oh, we just go to Disney World and I have three kids.” And you got a cat. That's a little bit of a cat. She's got a cat. If you're watching this on video, you see her big and fluffy cat. Is your cat Puerto Rican though? 00:32:29 Crystal: She is Puerto Rican. She is a sato cat.  00:32:31 Melissa: Aw.  00:32:32 Crystal: She's a rescue one.  00:32:34 Melissa: So cute. She probably eats pasteles because she's got meat on her. She's a solid cat. But, yeah, just the depth with which you could understand a culture, what I'm hearing from you, Crystal, it can absolutely include history and and careful attention to the food that you're eating. Right? I think about just everywhere that I've traveled and every time I've eaten food, it's kind of like there's almost a story or a reason for why something is on a plate, and it's not always superficial. It's not just labor profile. It could have to do with political conversations. It could have to do with whoever decided that that food would make its way to that region.  00:33:27 Melissa: But let me ask you this question then. So just to kind of close-up this conversation on something that I think is very practical, I'm gonna ask you a very selfish question. Okay, so I'm on the quest for the perfect sofrito. I'm gonna tell you what I do for my sofrito. So it's my ritual on Sundays. I take all the peppers that I find, red, green, yellow, and even orange because it comes in that pack. I also then buy cilantro. I'm in Texas, so let's just be mindful I'm limited in some of the things I can get.  00:34:05 Melissa: Also because I'm a health conscious mom, I put bone broth in the blender so that this way things can blend. Right? I put onions. I put garlic. I put some oregano. That is what's in my sofrito on a good day. Melissa's like, “Okay. I am ready to make a sofrito.” How can I enhance that sofrito, or how do you teach people that visit El Pretexto how to make their own sofrito?  00:34:39 Crystal: Well, sofrito is one thing as the pasteles. Right? Everybody have their own recipe, and everybody says that their mom's sofrito is the best. Right? [inaudible] My mom's sofrito is the best. So that's the one that I do. And I'm happy to share the recipe for you because I have it written.  00:35:03 Crystal: But there are two schools of Sofrito to begin with. The school that says you do your Sofrito on a Sunday and you don't touch it… you don't do another Sofrito batch up until that one is gone in one or two weeks. And then you have my mom's school, which is you do your sofrito every time that you're gonna cook. 00:35:28 Melissa: Gotcha. Right.  00:35:31 Crystal: Obviously, that's nice for those that are retired and have all the time in the world. I do it that way. I'm not retired, but it's because I have a– 00:35:40 Melissa: That's your job. 00:35:41 Crystal: That's how she does it. And I don't want to, to your point, I want to continue her way of doing things. So, there are onions. We don't use all the colors of the bell peppers. We actually use cubanelle pepper. Onion cubanelle, then we will have the aji dulce, the sweet little pepper we need. We will have the cilantro, but we will also have culantro. [inaudible]. Yeah? And then, we will have garlic in it, a little bit of oregano, and pretty much that's the base. 00:36:29 Crystal: So depending on who you ask, there are people that will omit having the onion, and they will do it when they are cooking, if they're doing a batch. And then you will have people that will go all the way in with a lot of culantro in it, so it has that strong flavor to it. My mom's is more balanced in how much goes of each little thing in there. And we also use the bone broth, but not to blend the sofrito, but to stew the rice. If it's gonna be a stew rice, we will do bone broth instead of water with the rice. 00:37:18 Crystal: And then, the beans, we like them vegetarians. We don't use any hams or meat cuts into it. But, again, that's us. There are people that say that the most flavorful ones is with a piece of ham in it and whatever. But, I like… my mom's and mine are vegetarian. And my cat starts again.  00:37:43 Crystal: But, sofrito is is very personal. You know? It's part of how your family has done it. And as I told earlier, it's also a blend of these three cultures that goes into it. A lot of cultures have mirepoix or other type of base of flavors into their food and this is ours. So you have to make it yours but also learn that there is a lot of history into it. It's not something that we do because we do it. There is a lot of history into it. But, yeah, happy to share my mom's one with you. 00:38:29 Melissa: Yeah. For sure. Crystal, this was so amazing. So I would say around now, a lot of individuals are planning their summer holiday trips and vacations and all of that. So, maybe you can share where people can learn more about you, can learn more about El Pretexto if that's an option to them to kind of explore, and just follow your journey. 00:38:53 Crystal: Yeah. Sure. Well, a friendly reminder that it is an adults only project. So this might be your chance to… El Pretexto actually translates to “The Excuse.” So this might be your excuse to having your parents take care of the kids and hop down to the island and have a little bit of a honeymoon. But, El Pretexto, you can find it at elprotextopr.com. We're also in social media @elprotextopr in Facebook and Instagram.  00:39:30 Crystal: There you will meet our chickens and photos of our garden and our harvest and the breakfast, and maybe you get a little bit hungry. In our website, you will find different options because you could come for a weekend or you could come for a weekday stay, but also you could come for these curated food experiences, which are in very specific dates around the year. We also have dinners, farm to table dinners in our property. We invite guest chefs to cook dinners, around the year.  00:40:08 Crystal: And, also, I take people to other places in the countryside to enjoy a beautiful lunch, but getting to know another piece of countryside around the island. So, El Pretexto is no other thing than the celebration of the beautiful diverse countryside of Puerto Rico. And you can check all the information there. So, yeah, feel free to follow me there.  00:40:37 Melissa: Thank you so much, Crystal. This has been amazing. Have an awesome rest of your day. Keep enjoying the peace and serenity of the mountains and the Caribbean Sea and all the beauty that you see outside your window. Thank you so much for this conversation.  00:40:53 Crystal: Thank you. Thank you for the invitation.  00:40:56 Melissa: So what's your version of a sofrito? Right? Let's take it out of the kitchen and into your home office. What sort of things for you can you put together to create your next big idea, whether it's something for business, something for your personal life or something for your family this very summer. I am so excited to have had Crystal Diaz for this conversation because I think she's inspiring all of us. She's giving us a good idea of all the ways that we could color our own individual rainbows.  00:41:33 Melissa: At the same time, I want this to just remind you that your imagination could be stirred into anything, right? Especially like tonight's dinner. So catch up on Tuesdays on the Mom Founder Imagination Hub and until then, keep cooking up ideas that only you can serve. I honestly think there's a place in this world for imaginations. And irrespective of AI and technology, at the end of the day, it's only as good as the person behind the computer screen, our prompts, our ideas, the way that we decide to use these resources.  00:42:10 Melissa: And that is the best case for you to actually keep your imagination going and playing with it. So thank you for this conversation. And again, if you are interested in learning more about the book, just go to fertileideas.com. Have an amazing rest of your day, moms.  

How do toys shape who we become? Today, I sit down with a fascinating toy historian Chris Byrne who reveals the hidden power of play - from how different toys develop everything from relationship skills to problem - solving abilities.    We explore why true play isn't about reaching an end goal, but about embracing the pure joy of the journey. Whether you're looking to understand the art of playing alongside your kids or giving them space to explore independently, this episode will transform how you think about playtime. Join us for a rich conversation about rediscovering the magic that happens when we give ourselves permission to simply play.   After exploring the art of play with our toy historian today, I want to share something powerful with you. My book Fertile Imagination tackles a crucial truth: we can't guide our children toward imagination if we've lost touch with our own. I'll show you the exact framework I used to reawaken and strengthen this superpower – the same one that transformed both my life and my three sons'. If you're ready to rediscover your creativity and childlike zest for life, grab your copy now: https://bit.ly/fertilebook     In this episode, you will hear:    Play is a process, not a means to an end, and embracing it can reduce stress. Imagination influences every decision we make. Playing with toys helps kids develop problem-solving and relationship skills. Adults benefit from play too—it fosters creativity, joy, and innovation. Letting children lead playtime strengthens their confidence and creativity. Kids learn by doing, and unstructured play is vital for their development. In corporate settings, a playful mindset can unlock new ideas and innovation. Fear of failure limits creativity—kids don't judge play, and neither should we.   This episode is brought to you by:    Fertile Imagination: A Guide For Stretching Every Mom's Superpower For Maximum Impact – My book is available as a hard cover, paperback, and also as an audiobook. If you are on the go and wish to quickly jot down where you can purchase the book then head to: https://bit.ly/fertilebook.    If however you want to grab the audio version then head to the show notes to click the direct Amazon link: https://www.amazon.com/Fertile-Imagination-Stretching-Superpower-Maximum/dp/B0CK2ZSMLB   About Chris Bryne   Chris Byrne has spent over 35 years in the toy industry, holding major marketing and creative roles before launching Byrne Communications, a consultancy specializing in product development, strategic planning, and marketing. A passionate advocate for the power of play, he has studied its impact on child development and creativity across industries. He has appeared on major media outlets worldwide, sharing insights on toys, play, and innovation. He also co-hosts The Playground Podcast, diving deep into the toy industry's past, present, and future.   SHARE this episode with fellow moms and entrepreneurs who want to bring more creativity into their lives! Chris's insights on play, imagination, and innovation are a must-listen for anyone balancing motherhood and career growth. Let's embrace play, rediscover joy, and inspire the next generation! Supporting Resources:   Website: https://www.thetoyguy.com/  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thetoyguy/  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thetoyguyofficial/ The Playground Podcast: Spotify & Apple Podcasts Subscribe and Review   Have you subscribed to my podcast for new moms who are entrepreneurs, founders, and creators?  I'd love for you to subscribe if you haven't yet.    I'd love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast for writer moms. About Fertile Imagination   You can be a great mom without giving up, shrinking, or hiding your dreams. There's flexibility in how you pursue anything – your role, your lifestyle, and your personal and professional goals. The limitations on your dreams are waiting to be shattered. It's time to see and seize what's beyond your gaze. Let's bridge your childhood daydreams with your grown-up realities. Imagine skipping with your kids along any path – you, surpassing your milestones while your kids are reaching theirs. There's only one superpower versatile enough to stretch your thinking beyond what's been done before: a Fertile Imagination. It's like kryptonite for impostor syndrome and feeling stuck when it's alert!    In Fertile Imagination, you will awaken your sleeping source of creative solutions. If you can wake up a toddler or a groggy middle schooler, then together with the stories in this book – featuring 25 guests from my podcast Unimaginable Wellness, proven tools, and personal anecdotes – we will wake up your former playmate: your imagination!  Advance Praise    “You'll find reality-based strategies for imagining your own imperfect, fulfilling life in this book!” —MARTHA HENNESSEY, former NH State Senator    “Melissa invites the reader into a personal and deep journey about topics that are crucially important to uncover what would make a mom (and dad too) truly happy to work on…even after the kids are in bed.” —KEN HONDA, best-selling author of Happy Money    “This book is a great purchase for moms in every stage of life. Melissa is like a great friend, honest and wise and funny, telling you about her life and asking you to reflect on yours.” —MAUREEN TURNER CAREY, librarian in Austin, TX           TRANSCRIPT 00:00:00 Chris: I really believe is what we play with as kids really becomes, we become a lot of that. And we had a basement in our house that had a room in it, that had a window in it. And my brothers and I would create puppet shows. And we would do that. And we would just go round up all the kids in the neighborhood and say, you have to watch this puppet show. And they did. I mean, they were good. But it was really about storytelling. It was about connection. It was about making things up and just feeling very alive in that moment, feeling very connected to who I was at that time and being able to share that with other people. 00:00:43 Melissa: Welcome to the Mom Founder Imagination Hub, your weekly podcast to inspire you to dream bigger. Plan out how you're going to get to that next level in business, find the energy to keep going, and make sure your creative juices are flowing so that this way you get what you really want rather than having to settle. Get ready to discover how mom founders have reimagined entrepreneurship and motherhood. Ever wonder how they do it? Tune in to find out. 00:01:09 Melissa: And stretch yourself by also learning from diverse entrepreneurs who might not be moms, but who have lessons you can tailor about how you can disrupt industries and step way outside of your comfort zone. I believe every mom's superpower is her imagination. In this podcast, I'm gonna give you the mindset, methods, and tools to unleash yours. Sounds good? Then keep listening. 00:01:36 Melissa: So how do toys shape who we become? Have you ever asked yourself that question as you are giving your child a toy? If that toy is going to influence their career choices ahead or the way that they are, their character. Today, I sat down with a fascinating toy historian, Chris Byrne. 00:02:04 Melissa: Now he is a 35 year plus veteran of the toy industry. He's held major marketing and creative positions earlier in his life. And he's appeared on TV talking about toys and play in the US and around the world. He's even been on the Live with Kelly and Mark show as a regular guest. And he has his own podcast, by the way, the Playground Podcast. 00:02:29 Melissa: So, Chris reveals today the hidden power of play, from how different toys develop everything from relationship skills to problem-solving abilities. We also explore why true play isn't about reaching an end goal, it's about embracing the pure joy of the journey. So, whether you're looking to understand the art of playing alongside your kids or giving them some space to explore independently, this episode is going to change how you think about playtime. So I encourage you to join us for this rich conversation about rediscovering the magic that happens when we give ourselves permission to just play. 00:03:10 Melissa: Okay, so before we jump into the conversation, I wanna just let you know that after the conversation, I would invite you to explore the art of play with my book, Fertile Imagination. Why is that relevant to you as a mom? Here's what I want you to know. It's really hard to guide our kids toward imagination if we've secretly lost touch with our own. So in my book, Fertile Imagination, I share with you the exact framework that I used in order to reawaken my imagination, play with my imagination, stretch my imagination, and strengthen what I believe to be our greatest superpower. 00:03:56 Melissa: So this framework is super simple to follow. It is guided and it is also provided in lots of really cool journaling question prompts in the book. And it's gonna be the same exact process that I used in order to really get back in touch with that little childlike spirit that all of us has, but maybe we forgot we have held quite tightly close to our hearts. 00:04:22 Melissa: So, I invite you to go ahead, rediscover your creativity, and see if you can find your childlike zest for life. Because I really believe that it's hard to teach our kids things that we may have forgotten are natural to us, and maybe came naturally to us when we were younger. So enjoy the conversation. The link to the book is available in the show notes where you're listening to this. Let me read the actual link so that you can learn more about my book, Fertile Imagination. 00:04:53 Melissa: It is a bit.ly link. So it is bit.ly/fertilebook. You can absolutely grab a copy right there of Fertile Imagination. If you wanted the audio version that is available exclusively via Amazon. So go ahead and check out the show notes for that link. Thank you again. And I hope you enjoy the conversation and let me know what you think at the end, I will share with you my top three takeaways that you can apply to your immediate mom life. Thank you so much. 00:05:28 Melissa: Chris Byrne. I am so excited to have you here on the Mom Founder Imagination Hub. How are you? 00:05:35 Chris: I am very well. I'm so excited to be with you. Thank you so much for the invitation. 00:05:40 Melissa: I couldn't get enough of your TED Talk. I was like, oh my gosh, he's not just a toy historian. He's like a toy psychologist. I loved it. I loved it. So welcome to the show. Chris, I want to just start with the big, big question on my mind. Help me understand from your perspective, decades in the industry, learning about the art of play, like what is an imagination to you and do you consider it a superpower? 00:06:12 Chris: Well, I absolutely consider our imagination our superpower. It is the one thing that, really one of the many things that really define us as human beings. Nothing happens in our world that doesn't start in the imagination. It can be, what do I want for lunch? Or what do I want to be when I grow up? Or should I marry this person? Or should I have children? 00:06:34 Chris: Or whatever it is because we begin in the imagination and other kinds of animals, you just put food in front of them and they eat, it's instinctual. But for us, it's not- as humans, it's not just instinctual. We literally create our worlds on a daily basis and that starts in the imagination. 00:06:54 Melissa: I agree. And it's interesting because as a fully grown adult, I would say that when I was writing my book, Fertile Imagination, and I see it as like a superpower for moms who are technically adults. I feel like it's a topic that is seldom discussed amongst adults. Like, is this something that you are noticing? Or maybe, you know, people that have that childlike quality because of your industry? What's your take on imagination, the art of play, and being an adult? 00:07:30 Chris: Well, I think all of those are really critical to who we are, because play is really the act of asking a question, what if? What if I do this? What if I, you know, as an adult in can be, what if do whatever? For me, as a kid is like, what if I jump off this wall? What's gonna happen? You know, but we grow up and we have a little bit more, more adult kind of perceptions, if you will, for that. And it really is like trying to spin out a scenario. 00:08:06 Chris: So if I am going to take a new job, for example, what is that gonna be like? Who am I gonna be working with? And we begin to develop stories around things in our imagination. And those stories are very important because we really can't take action to make things real until we've imagined them as a concept. 00:08:28 Melissa: Yeah. And so, okay. So this is something that I'm struggling with right now. This is like real time, I need some help, get me unclogged sort of stuff. So this idea of having a story in my mind and having a vision I want to make real, the vision side of it is so hard right now for me to see, mainly because it's like, there's things that I've envisioned in the past, but I haven't made happen. So I don't know kind of like how to play myself to a solution or a vision or just kind of like, think with a little less of like the past, you know, like hindering this vision. 00:09:15 Chris: Right. It's a great, it's a great thing. I mean, I'm sorry you're going through that, but I think that if you look at how a child plays, right, when they get an idea and they don't sit there and think, well, if I just do this or I do this or I do that, it's going to be fun, right? They come, that's not fun. I'm done. I'm on to the next thing. And I think as adults, we should do that too. If something is becoming too much effort, if it's not working, then we just drop it and go on to the next thing. 00:09:47 Chris: And I don't think there's any harm or foul in that. And I think that when you look at a kid who is imagining and playing, they're not judging the play as they're doing it. They're looking at well, where did this take me and where should I go next from it? And it's a much freer, kind of more peaceful way to go through the world. 00:10:08 Chris: I mean, I talk about things that I've done that turned out to be mistakes. And I call them I said, well, that was a once in a lifetime experience. As in I don't have to do that again. I learned the lesson. 00:10:20 Melissa: Yeah. And I think, you know, approaching any problem from that perspective releases that pressure to get it right the first time. And it gives you like the levity to get back up and just be like, okay, let's go at it again. And I imagine like, cause I noticed also, and I know that this side of it might be a little bit more conventional thinking, but like, you actually bring these ideas into corporate settings, you know, the art of play. 00:10:51 Melissa: And I'm like, if I think about the different environments where it's not okay to play. It's not okay to make mistakes. Like how do you sell that idea of we're just playing right now and don't get frustrated if it works or not in like a corporate setting, you know? 00:11:11 Chris: Well, one of the things that's so interesting in a corporate setting is people come into a meeting or a brainstorming and they're focused on one specific outcome, right? So if you're focused on an outcome, you kind of end-run the process of play because play is a process. Play is asking, what if, you know, let's go down this road and let's go down this road and see what it is. So I always encourage people to be as off the wall as possible. I will give you an example that almost got me fired. 00:11:43 Melissa: This is a good one, okay. 00:11:44 Chris: And nobody will like it, but I was working with Ideal, with Ideal Toy Company and we had the Shirley Temple doll. And nobody, we had these porcelain $400 Shirley Temple dolls and Shirley Temple dolls were huge in the '30s and still with doll collectors, but nobody was buying them. And we thought, how do we get rid of them? And I said, well, why don't we put them on the QE2 and use them as skeet? Like people can launch the doll. 00:12:11 Chris: So the brand manager got really mad at me. And told me I was inappropriate. But as we talked more, we ended up doing a doll collecting event with Cunard that actually turned out to be good. So the idea is, go out there and play off the wall in a safe environment, obviously. So the idea of creating an environment where it's safe to play, where it's safe to have that sort of impulsive childish response to a situation is okay. 00:12:45 Chris: We would never have promoted that in a corporate sense. But the idea that we were just playing with ideas and being silly. That opens the pathway to being really creative and to seeing what could actually work. And then once you get that, you put the action steps in place to get to the next step. 00:13:05 Melissa: Yeah, I think just, you know, going crazy and just really trying to break out of conventional thinking and our very logical pathways in our mind, it's like first we do this, that, the other. It's almost like some sentences, right? And the way we like greet each other, it's so like rehearsed that to come up with something like, oh my gosh, I love your outfit. You know, it reminds me of like a toy soldier or something. It would be like way off, but it would start rapport, I think. Rapport or like, you know, people would be like, kind of weirded out. But I've always tried that. How can I not weird people out? 00:13:44 Chris: Well, it's, right, well, that's always a question, but I don't really worry about that too much. But I think that one of the things, again, as I was saying about process, but also getting over fear, right? As adults, we think, well, what if I get it wrong? Children, when they play, if you watch them play, they don't worry about getting it wrong. They just think, well, that didn't work. That didn't do what I wanted it to do. Let me do something else. They haven't built a hierarchy of judgment and really being unkind to themselves about doing something wrong. 00:14:19 Chris: And if you embrace play, there's really no kind of, you can't be wrong when you're playing, right? Some things may be practical, but there's imagination and there's spinning things out, things that might never become real, but then things that actually could practically become real. And the process of getting to that point is actually pretty joyful. 00:14:42 Melissa: And I think we could all use some more joy these days, that's for sure. Adults and children alike. So let's see, let's go back in time. So let's go back to the time where you recall maybe playing with a toy and feeling like an insane amount of joy. If you can think about, you know, your one moment or one of the moments, I'm curious to hear your perspective. 00:15:06 Chris: Well, it's really interesting because one of the things that I really believe is what we play with as kids really becomes, we become a lot of that. And we had a basement in our house that had a room in it. They had a window in it. And my brothers and I would create puppet shows. And we would do that. And we would just go round up all the kids in the neighborhood and say, you have to watch this puppet show. And they did. They were good. But it was really about storytelling. It was about connection. It was about making things up and just feeling very alive in that moment, feeling very connected to who I was at that time and being able to share that with other people. 00:15:52 Melissa: Wow, so that's interesting. So it's funny because I feel like maybe I was, because I was an only child for most of my upbringing, like a lot of the things I did were just on my own and I had to really figure out how to make something out of what was around me. So let me share like this one thing that I would do to just pass the time. And of course, like in the background, like there was like maybe Magnum P.I. playing or, you know, name- Hawaii Five-0, whatever my mom was into. 00:16:25 Melissa: So I would go to the closet and I would take out a shoebox. And I would proceed to create like a scene. So they're called dioramas. I looked it up because I was like, this is a weird thing that I just kept doing all the time. And then I would create little figurines and put like little slots, you know, on the sides and move the little carboards in and out, you know. And I was like, okay, I have to ask Chris, like, what does that say about me? I have no idea. 00:16:56 Chris: Well, I mean, I would say it sort of starts you as a storyteller, which is what you're doing today. You're telling stories and you're facilitating other people telling stories. But it's also, I mean, especially for children at that age, it's about trying to make sense of the world and the stories they tell us, like trying to make sense of relationships. I'll tell you another story. 00:17:18 Chris: Years ago, we were playing with some kids with Barbie dolls. And they had all these different Barbie dolls. And one kid took all the blonde Barbie dolls and they were making fun of the brunette Barbie doll. And we were just watching this and going, yeah, this is somebody who is working out a reality in their life. 00:17:38 Chris: And that is really what play is, because even as she, in this case it was a girl, became powerful in that situation, was able to stand up for herself, you're giving your brain the sense that you can actually do this. If you do it vicariously, you've already had that experience on some level. So that when you confront that in real life, it might be easier, or you might have a solution. 00:18:03 Chris: I mean, how many times do you go into a situation, an interview or whatever, and you've rehearsed what you're gonna say? And your brain already knows that. It's like visual, what they talk about in sports about visualizing, you know, the outcome. You know, you're already having that experience, which is so cool. Cause our brain doesn't know the difference sometimes between reality and what we imagine. 00:18:24 Melissa: I love that. I love that. And so, yeah, who knows what I was trying to work out? There are a lot of things going on in my home. I'll tell you that much. But yeah, I think, you know, that idea though, just like trying to work things out that, you know, maybe you don't have that first person experience with, but like doing it through the use of a toy. Have you noticed at a curiosity any sort of changes with the dynamics between toys and kids now that there's like AI sort of toys out there? 00:19:01 Chris: There are so many different types of play experiences. What we were just talking about is more traditional doll or action figure or stuffed animal kind of play where a child is really doing that. Some of the other stuff with AI or licensed space like Star Wars, Marvel, all of that is beginning to understand yourself as a capable human being. 00:19:23 Chris: So for example, if I'm a superhero, I can feel. I can have the feeling of what it's like to be a superhero. And I always say, if your life is all about mom is in control, eat your peas, get in the minivan, do your homework, suddenly if you're a superhero, that's very empowering. And then empowering as an individual to be able to confront the world in a different way because you're empowered. So it's very classical, the kind of totemistic idea that we take on the powers of the superheroes. 00:19:59 Chris: And even though we're not gonna fly, we're not gonna lift, we're not gonna pick up a truck, we're not gonna do that, you have the emotional sense of capability, which is really what it's all about. 00:20:10 Melissa: That's interesting. I think, I mean, I don't know. Now that I think about my kids, for example, their toy experiences these days is really YouTube videos and playing video games and things like that. And I wonder if that's also along the same thread of what you just said, feeling the different capabilities like running fast or jumping high, things like that. 00:20:37 Chris: I think definitely. I mean, it's, you know, YouTube videos are like today's cartoons, right, on some level. You know, I grew up watching cartoons and, and it was- so they're looking at who are my role models and who are, you know, somebody's doing something. Oh, I'd like to try that. And, you know, or oh, wow, they tried that, I'm not gonna do that, but what would it be like if I did this kind of thing? 00:21:03 Chris: So I think that it's a window on the world and people are always concerned about screen time and I'm never concerned about screen time so much as I'm concerned about what's on the screen. So that is what's being modeled through the YouTube things, things that you as a mom or a parent want your child to be consuming because it can be very supportive or it can be kind of dangerous depending on what kids have access to. 00:21:30 Melissa: Yeah. And it's so interesting what you're sharing right now, because I mean, I had Saturday morning cartoons, for example, and I ate a lot of cereals with all the dyes and all these other things. And my kids literally tell me, they're like, oh, we want to have Saturday morning cartoons just like you. But of course, it is that YouTube thing. And I limit it to SpongeBob. Like, that's appropriate for their ages right now. 00:21:54 Melissa: But I think that's so interesting, this whole idea of rehearsal and visualization and imagination. I wonder because when it comes to toys and just the way that they've changed through the years, how did, for example, Tickle Me Elmo, how did that support people in terms of capabilities or anything? I'm curious. 00:22:22 Chris: Well, Tickle Me Elmo was kind of an outlier in that, you know, in terms of classical play. Tickle Me Elmo became a fad, right? And fads take on a life of their own. They kind of jump the shark or jump from the toy industry because Tickle Me Elmo started as an entertaining little preschool doll for preschoolers, infants and preschoolers. Suddenly it becomes this whole cultural phenomenon that everybody has to have. 00:22:50 Chris: It becomes, so it's a fad, so it becomes kind of a marker in time. So if you were around for Tickle Me Elmo, and you remember that, it's sort of a springboard to your memories of what the latter part of 1996 was about, because that's when Tickle Me Elmo was really huge. So that's not really kind of play in the way that I talk about it a lot. That becomes a cultural event. And my other joke about Tickle Me Elmo, Tickle Me Elmo was $40 really, basically, or more. You know, you can have a Tickle Me Elmo and be really cool for a lot less than you can have a Birkin bag. 00:23:26 Melissa: Wow, yeah, that's true. That is true. It's so funny, this conversation just takes me down the whole nostalgic route. Like I'm thinking about my Steve Urkel joke pull doll. Do you remember that one? 00:23:39 Chris: Yeah, yeah, of course. 00:23:41 Melissa: Yeah, so anyways, I'm totally like aging myself right now. I'm like, oh, I had Steve Urkel and I had Popples and all the like. What do you think, you know, nostalgia? Let's talk about that. Because I feel like a lot of marketers use that, you know, in order to kind of like pull forth a certain generation, let's say. And I even feel like at a supermarket, like I'm like, I think they know who their shoppers are with the music. But let's talk about nostalgia. 00:24:09 Melissa: Like, and again, thinking about more quote unquote modern toys, you know, like. And back to like these like electronics, like do you think that it'll be the same sort of calling card, I think is the right phrase? Like when someone starts saying, oh, like, let's say 10 years from now, you know, what's the name of the- Stumble Guys? Like, do you think that people will say like a certain like thing on video games and it'll have the same emotional pull as like Tickle Me Elmo, Popples, or Cabbage Patch? 00:24:41 Chris: It's hard to know. The thing about nostalgia is it's really for adults, right? Nostalgia is for people looking back. When you're three and four, you're not nostalgic for much. You're not remembering much. Maybe you remember your pull ups, right? When you had your pull ups. But you don't, you're not really nostalgic for something because you haven't been around that much. 00:25:03 Chris: The challenge from a toy marketing standpoint is relying on nostalgia to sell toys. Because I mean, yes, there's a certain level of you as a mom had My Little Pony or Littlest Pet Shop or any of those huge hits, Masters of the Universe. And you want to share those with your child. But for it to engage your child's imagination, there has to be something authentic to them. It's not just, mom liked this, so I'm going to like it too. That doesn't really work. 00:25:31 Chris: Look at Barbie and how Barbie's been redefined over the years, because Barbie always reflects the culture at any given time. So in 1959, she could be a fashion model or a bride, right? Pretty much, those are the Barbie options. Today, there are hundreds of careers and there's hundreds of abilities. And Barbie, the Barbie line looks like the world kids are growing up in, just as it did in 1959. It's just a more diverse and broader world with more possibility for girls and women today than it was in 1959. 00:26:08 Melissa: So when it comes to the toy industry, who's actually using their imagination to come up with like what to make for the future? Like, is it a combination of kids and adults? Is it like who's actually imagining like right now, like in the Mattels, et cetera, you know, what's coming down the line like 10 years from now? It's going to be hot and cool. And like, how do you how do you imagine something like that? 00:26:36 Chris: Well, it's hard. I mean, I think I think it's like, you know, my crystal ball usually needs a shot of Windex so I could get a clearer sense. But it's more an art than a science, that's for sure. And it's looking at trends. It's looking at how are kids playing, how are they interacting, how are they socializing, what is fun to them, and what's going on in the culture at large. Because the toy industry always reflects the culture. 00:27:03 Chris: We're always reflecting, because kids, you know, most healthy kids, they aspire to being big. They wanna grow up and they want the things like their parents have. So back in the, you know, in the early 2000s when cell phones came out, you saw tons of preschool cell phones, right? You don't see that so much anymore because the preschoolers have a real cellphone. 00:27:25 Chris: But you see things that will allow them to feel like they are part of the culture and they are growing up into it and that they are older and perhaps more capable than they really are because that's an important imaginative tool to help in the maturation process. 00:27:41 Melissa: That's fascinating. So that's true. It was definitely a lot of like, I don't know, mommy and me things. Like you see them with like a cash register or like a Target cart, right? The plastic little one, right? Cause their parent is shopping at Target. And so I wonder because it's like, there's some habits that as a parent, like maybe we wanna shake off ourselves, but we're inadvertently doing a lot. 00:28:06 Melissa: So like the cellphone one, I'm like, oh God, yeah, mommy has a cellphone and now her child does too. And it's like, how can I stop? And it's a reinforcement, but I'm wondering, okay, so in terms of the future and in terms of toys, have you ever done or seen any sort of things where the mom was playing with the child versus the child was playing by themselves? Like any differences there? 00:28:31 Melissa: Because I would love to just kind of inspire a listener right now to consider the fact that actually getting lost in play with their child can be even more beneficial than just having your child play with a toy to the side and you're doing something completely different. 00:28:52 Chris: I think that is critically important. One of the things that we're talking to parents of Gen Z and Gen Alpha kids. And Gen Alpha was born 2010 to this year. And one of the things that parents talk about is some of the best part of their day is when they're playing with kids. And what I always suggest is that if you're playing with your kid, especially if they're a preschooler, let the child run the play and you respond. Don't tell them, oh, look at this, oh, do that. 00:29:24 Chris: And you don't have to teach, it doesn't have to teach them anything, right? It doesn't have to teach. Kids are going to learn. So really letting that child's imagination drive the experience because, you know, I think every parent has had the experience where your child comes up with something and you go where did that come from? 00:29:45 Melissa: 100%. All the time. 00:29:47 Chris: And it's because they're sponges and they're listening to their absorbing everything and then they're processing it to their childlike brains or their childish brains. So I think that letting the child do that, but being there and being in communication is really important. 00:30:02 Chris: When I was growing up and maybe when you were too, we had three different worlds. We had kid world where no adults came in and the kids were doing that. We had adult world where we weren't allowed, where the parents would do that. And then there was family world, which is dinner and vacations and being yelled at about your grades or whatever that was. 00:30:21 Chris: But those three worlds don't really seem to exist anymore. And parents and kids are much more integrated in one another's lives. I think that's an outcome of COVID. It's actually a very positive outcome from COVID. Because you as mom and dad, have fun with your kids. Come on. It's, again, back to the idea of process rather than outcome. They don't have to become an expert ball player. They don't have to become an expert thing at times. They can actually just learn and play and discover the world and share those discoveries with you. 00:30:51 Melissa: Yeah, I love that. And I think it's an opportunity for someone that has to think a lot in life and feels the stresses of life to kind of let go and just stop thinking and just going with what is. Be present. You know, be totally present. 00:31:12 Chris: Be totally present and just be open to what it is. It's trying not to, as I was saying, it doesn't have to have a definitive outcome. And the one thing I think we've lost track of, often in our culture right now, is the idea of embracing process. It's really okay to make mistakes. It's really okay to try something, as long as you get up and start again. 00:31:36 Chris: I mean, how many times have you, I was talking about, for me, I learned to ski late. And I'm a really mediocre skier. I'm enthusiastic, but I'm not good. And I had somebody who was teaching me and he said, Chris, eventually I was scared. Eventually you're gonna have to point your skis down the hill. So I did it, I fell a lot, I did that, but I was so eager to learn that I'd fall and get up again. 00:32:04 Chris: I had to learn how to get up, but that's the thing that I think is, you know, if you have an idea of where you'd like to go but embrace the process on the way there because who knows what you're going to learn and what you're going to discover. 00:32:16 Melissa: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I think that's the key to any goal. It's just you have to really fall in love with the process as you head towards the vision the goal, you know, whatever it is that you're trying to accomplish. And I also love the fact that, you know, as with play it's like there's something that's so pure about it, you know, when left on unmanipulated. 00:32:40 Melissa: It's like as a parent, we might have this desire to like educate our kids up to wazoo with regards to like every educational toy out there and every moment with we're with them, we're teaching them another language or coding or something. But I think, you know, just being open to a little bit, you know, unstructured play and that time with your child has so many benefits. And I think, you know, Chris, the work that you're doing just stay connected to like play as just being fun and okay and positive is is really helpful. Thank you so much for the work that you've done. 00:33:18 Chris: Thanks. I mean, I really do think that it as I mentioned, joy before it really does open the door to being joyful and going, oh, wow, that's fun, you know? I mean, when was the last time you said, oh, wow, that's really fun. 00:33:31 Melissa: 100%. Yeah, for sure. Thank you so much, Chris. So where can listeners continue to learn about their favorite toys, about you, about what's up ahead in the toy industry? 00:33:42 Chris: You can come see the toyguy.com. That's probably the best way. And then on Instagram, I'm thetoyguy. So, yeah. And I post a lot of pictures from things like toy fairs and different things and things that are fun for me and that make me giggle. 00:33:58 Melissa: Thank you so much, Chris. Have an awesome one. 00:34:01 Chris: Thank you. 00:34:03 Melissa: My three takeaways for this conversation that you can absolutely take to the bank and apply in your home are, first, this idea that playing with our kids has benefits for our kids, but also for us, especially if you're a super busy mom. It helps put you in the immediate present moment. So that's a big, big perk right there. 00:34:25 Melissa: Second is this idea that it's all about the process as opposed to the final answer. And that's something that I know is hard to think about when you're constantly thinking about what's next in your life. So thinking about play as something that you're doing and it's a process instead of to put together that Lego piece might be a great shift in your thinking and could relieve you of the stress and pressure of getting things right. 00:34:54 Melissa: Second, no, actually my third point here, my third point would be that in terms of the benefits of playing, I hadn't realized how psychologically deep some of these toys touch the minds of our kids. So the simple fact that we are thinking about, you know, working out relationships when you're doing a diorama, which may have been the case for me personally or maybe you're thinking about whether or not you have skills like a superhero, which was something that Chris shared, I just never thought about how psychologically interesting playing with a toy could be. 00:35:32 Melissa: So you might want to reconsider this idea that playing with a toy is just a way to distract your child or keep them focused on something other than breaking things. There could be real psychological value and also something for you to just consider psychological opportunity when it comes to the choices behind the toys we put in front of our kids. 00:36:00 Melissa: So I hope you enjoyed this conversation. Again, this episode was brought to you by my book, Fertile Imagination. I am excited about it. It's a guide for stretching every mom's superpower for maximum impact. Your imagination is your superpower. That is why I had Chris on the show today. I encourage you to check out the show notes where you could actually purchase the book and let me know that you did. I am always available for conversation and any questions. Thank you so much and I appreciate you. And until next Tuesday.

In the world of podcasting, a lot of newbie hosts get nervous about their voices and the stories they want to share. In this special holiday episode, Melissa teams up with the amazing Anika Jackson to chat about juggling motherhood, entrepreneurship, and podcasting. Anika shares how she helps podcasters find their true voice, streamline their workflow, and grow their influence—all while cracking us up with some hilarious stories (yes, there's even a squirrel costume involved!). Scroll down for image

Ready for a fresh episode that's brimming with big dreams, family stories, and some real-life hacks to build a better business without burning out? This week, we're chatting with Leah Remillet, a mom, entrepreneur, and systems whiz who shares her journey from hustling 24/7 to finding that sweet spot of success and balance.    Leah breaks down how she took a 100-day break (yes, you read that right!) and still came back to a thriving business, totally inspired. Plus, if you've ever had genius ideas pop up while you're in the shower or driving, Leah's got tips on capturing those “aha!” moments without missing a beat.   So, grab a cozy seat or hit play on your next drive – we're diving into all things systems, sabbaticals, and sustainable success! In this episode, you will hear:   Allowing yourself space to step back can reignite passion and motivation. Transitioning from a “hustle harder” mindset to finding balance by setting boundaries and systems. Nurturing creativity without the interference of day-to-day tasks. Shifting focus to small, everyday positives can improve both business and personal well-being. How small tools like shower notepads and car voice memos are great for capturing fleeting creative thoughts. Capturing inspiration right away helps turn ideas into actionable steps.  

Do you ever find yourself spinning a million plates while trying to rock both motherhood and business?

Ever wonder why networking events feature few mothers starting businesses? I have been thinking about this for the past 13 years and am ready to explain why it is so important to me. Often feeling like the lone mother in the room, I started to wonder why more amazing mother entrepreneurs weren't out there networking?   Here's what I've heard: "The kids are getting ready for bed, and happy hours are as sleazy as a meat market," is what I've overheard.

Rounding Up Season 2 | Episode 16 – Strengthening Tasks Through Student Talk Guests: Dr. Amber Candela and Dr. Melissa Boston Mike Wallus: One of the goals I had in mind when we first began recording Rounding Up was to bring to life the best practices that we aspire to in math education and to offer entry points so that educators would feel comfortable trying them out in their classrooms. Today, we're talking with Drs. Amber Candela and Melissa Boston about powerful but practical strategies for supporting student talk in the elementary math classroom.  Welcome to the podcast, Amber and Melissa. We're really excited to be talking with you today. Amber Candela: Thank you for having us.  Melissa Boston: Yes, thank you. Mike: So we've done previous episodes on the importance of offering kids rich tasks, but one of the things that you two would likely argue is that rich tasks are necessary, but they're not necessarily sufficient, and that talk is actually what makes the learning experience really blossom. Is that a fair representation of where you all are at? Melissa: Yes. I think that sums it up very well. In our work, which we've built on great ideas from Smith and Stein, about tasks, and the importance of cognitively challenging tasks and work on the importance of talk in the classroom. Historically, it was often referred to as “talk moves.” We've taken up the term “discourse actions” to think about how do the actions a teacher takes around asking questions and positioning students in the classroom—and particularly these talk moves or discourse actions that we've named “linking” and “press”—how those support student learning while students are engaging with a challenging task. Mike: So I wonder if we could take each of the practices separately and talk through them and then talk a little bit about how they work in tandem. And Melissa, I'm wondering if you could start unpacking this whole practice of linking. How would you describe linking and the purpose it plays for someone who, the term is new for them? Melissa: I think as mathematics teachers, when we hear linking, we immediately think about the mathematics and linking representations or linking strategies. But we're using it very specifically here as a discourse action to refer to how a teacher links student talk in the classroom and the explicit moves a teacher makes to link students' ideas.  Sometimes a linking move is signaled by the teacher using a student's name, so referring to a strategy or an idea that a student might've offered. Sometimes linking might happen if a teacher revoices a student's idea and puts it back out there for the class to consider. The idea is in the way that we're using linking, that it's links within the learning community, so links between people in the classroom and the ideas offered by those people, of course. But the important thing here that we're looking for is how the links between people are established in the verbal, the explicit talk moves or discourse actions that the teacher's making. Mike: What might that sound like? Melissa: So that might sound like, “Oh, I noticed that Amber used a table. Amber, tell us how you used a table.” And then after Amber would explain her table, I might say, “Mike, can you tell me what this line of Amber's table means?” or “How is her table different from the table you created?” Mike: You're making me think about those two aspects, Melissa, this idea that there's mathematical value for the class, but there's also this connectivity that happens when you're doing linking. And I wonder how you think about the value that that has in a classroom.  Melissa: We definitely have talked about that in our work as well. I'm thinking about how a teacher can elevate a student's status in mathematics by using their name or using their idea, just marking or identifying something that the student said is mathematically important that's worthy of the class considering further. Creating these opportunities for student-to-student talk by asking students to compare their strategies or if they have something to add on to what another student said. Sometimes just asking them to repeat what another student said so that there's a different accountability for listening to your peers. If you can count on the teacher to revoice everything, you could tune out what your peers are saying, but if you might be asked to restate what one of your classmates had just said, now there's a bit more of an investment in really listening and understanding and making sense. Mike: Yeah, I really appreciate this idea that there's a way in which that conversation can elevate a student's ideas, but also to raise a student's status by naming their idea and positioning it as important. Melissa: I have a good example from a high school classroom where a student [...] was able to solve the contextual problem about systems of equations, so two equations, and it was important for the story when the two equations or the two lines intersected. And so one student was able to do that very symbolically. They created a graph, they solved the system of equations where another student said, “Oh, I see what you did. You found the difference in the cost per minute, and you also found the difference in the starting point, and then one had to catch up to the other.”  And so the way that the teacher kind of positioned those two strategies, one had used a sensemaking approach based really in the context. The other had used their knowledge of algebra. And by positioning them together, it was actually the student who had used the algebra had higher academic status, but the student who had reasoned through it had made this breakthrough that was really the aha moment for the class. Mike: That is super cool.  Amber, can we shift to press and ask you to talk a little bit about what press looks like? Amber: Absolutely. So how Melissa was talking about linking is holding students accountable to the community; press is more around holding students accountable to the mathematics.  And so the questions the teacher is going to ask is going to be more related specifically to the mathematics. So, “Can you explain your reasoning?” “How did you get that answer?” “What does this x mean?” “What does that intersection point mean?” And so the questions are more targeted at keeping the math conversation in the public space longer. Mike: I thought it was really helpful to just hear the example that Melissa shared. I'm wondering if there's an example that comes to mind that might shed some light on this. Amber: So when I'm in elementary classrooms and teachers are asking their kids about different problems, and kids will be like, “I got 2.” OK, “How did you get 2?” “What operation did you use?” “Why did you use addition when you could have used something else?”  So it's really pressing at the, “Yes, you got the answer, but how did you get the answer?” “How does it make sense to you?”, so that you're making the kids rather than the teacher justify the mathematics that's involved. And they're the ones validating their answers and saying, “Yes, this is why I did this because…” Mike: I think there was a point when I was listening to the two of you speak about this where, and forgive me if I paraphrase this a little bit, but you had an example where a teacher was interacting with a student and the student said something to the effect of, “I get it” or “I understand.” And the teacher came back and she said, “And what do you understand?” And it was really interesting because it threw the justification back to the student. Amber: Right. Really what the linking and press does, it keeps the math actionable longer to all of the peers in the room. So it's having this discussion out loud publicly. So if you didn't get the problem fully all the way, you can hear your peers through the press moves, talk about the mathematics, and then you can use the linking moves to think through, “Well, maybe if Mike didn't understand, if he revoices Melissa's comment, he has the opportunity to practice this mathematics speaking it.” And then you might be able to take that and be like, “Oh, wait, I think I know how to finish solving the problem now.” Mike: I think the part that I want to pull back and linger on a little bit is [that] part of the purpose of press is to keep the conversation about the mathematics in the space longer for kids to be able to have access to those ideas. I want y'all to unpack that just a little bit. Amber: Having linking and press at the end is holding the conversation longer in the classroom. And so the teacher is using the press moves to get at the mathematics so the kids can access it more. And then by linking, you're bringing in the community to that space and inviting them to add: “What do you agree [with]?” “Do you disagree?” “Can you revoice what someone said?” “Do you have any questions about what's happening?” Melissa: So when we talk about discourse actions, the initial discourse action would be the questions that the teacher asks. So there's a good task to start with. Students have worked on this task and produced some solution strategies. Now we're ready to discuss them. The teacher asks some questions so that students start to present or share their work and then it's after students' response [that] linking and press come in as these follow-up moves to do what Amber said: to have the mathematics stay in the public space longer, to pull more kids into the public space longer.  So we're hoping that by spending more time on the mathematics, and having more kids access the mathematics, that we're bringing more kids along for the ride with whatever mathematics it is that we're learning. Mike: You're putting language to something that I don't know that I had before, which is this idea that the longer we can keep the conversation about the ideas publicly bouncing around—there are some kids who may need to hear an idea or a strategy or a concept articulated in multiple different ways to piece together their understanding. Amber: And like Melissa was saying earlier, the thing that's great about linking is oftentimes in a classroom space, teachers ask a question, kids answer, the teacher moves on. The engagement does drop. But by keeping the conversation going longer, the linking piece of it, you might get called on to revoice, so you need to be actively paying attention to your peers because it's on the kids now. The math authority has been shared, so the kids are the ones also making sense of what's happening. But it's on me to listen to my peers because if I disagree, there's an expectation that I'll say that. Or if I agree or I might want to add on to what someone else is saying.  So oftentimes I feel like this pattern of teacher-student-teacher-student-teacher-student happens, and then what can start to happen is teacher-student-student-student-teacher. And so it kind of creates this space where it's not just back and forth, it kind of popcorns more around with the kids. Mike: You are starting to touch on something that I did want to talk about, though, because I think when I came into this conversation, what was in my head is, like, how this supports kids in terms of their mathematical thinking. And I think where you two have started to go is: What happens to kids who are in a classroom where link and press are a common practice? And what happens to classrooms where you see this being enacted on a consistent basis? What does it mean for kids? What changes about their mathematical learning experience? Melissa: You know, we observe a lot of classrooms, and it's really interesting when you see even primary grade students give an answer and immediately say, you know, “I think it's 5 because …,” and they provide their justification just as naturally as they provide their answer or they're listening to their peers and they're very eager to say, “I agree with you; I disagree with you, and here's why” or “I did something similar” or “Here's how my diagram is slightly different.”  So to hear children and students taking that up is really great. And it just—a big shift in the amount of time that you hear the teacher talking versus the amount of time you hear children talking and what you're able to take away as the teacher or the educator formatively about what they know and understand based on what you're hearing them say. And so [in] classrooms where this has become the norm, you see fewer instances where the teacher has to use linking and press because students are picking this up naturally. Mike: As we were sitting here and I was listening to y'all talk, Amber, the thing that I wanted to come back to is [that] I started reflecting on my own practice and how often, even if I was orchestrating or trying to sequence, it was teacher-student-teacher-student-teacher-student. It bounced back to me, and I'm really kind of intrigued by this idea, teacher-student-student-student-teacher—that the discourse, it's moving from a back and forth between one teacher, one student, rinse and repeat, and more students actually taking up the discourse. Am I getting that right? Amber: Yes. And I think really the thought is we always want to talk about the mathematics, but we also have to have something for the community. And that's why the linking is there because we also need to hold kids accountable to the community that they're in as much as we need to hold them accountable to the mathematics. Mike: So, Amber, I want to think about what does it look like to take this practice up? If you were going to give an educator a little nudge or maybe even just a starting point where teachers could take up linking and press, what might that look like? If you imagined kind of that first nudge or that first starting point that starts to build this practice? Amber: We have some checklists with sentence stems in [them], and I think it's taking those sentence stems and thinking about when I ask questions like, “How did you get that?” and “How do you know this about that answer?”, that's when you're asking about the mathematics. And then when you start to ask, “Do you agree with what so-and-so said? Can you revoice what they said in your own words?”, that's holding kids accountable to the community and just really thinking about the purpose of asking this question. Do I want to know about the math or do I want to build the conversation between the students? And then once you realize what you want that to be, you have the stem for the question that you want to ask. Mike: Same question, Melissa. Melissa: I think if you have the teacher who is using good tasks and asking those good initial questions that encourage thinking, reasoning, explanations, even starting by having them try out, once a student gives you a response, asking, “How do you know?” or “How did you get that?” and listening to what the student has to say. And then as the next follow-up, thinking about that linking move coming after that. So even a very formulaic approach where a student gives a response, you use a press move, hear what the student has to say, and then maybe put it back out to the class with a linking move. You know, “Would someone like to repeat what Amber just said?” or “Can someone restate that in their own words?” or whatever the linking move might be. Mike: So if these two practices are new to someone who's listening, are there any particular resources or recommendations that you'd share with someone who wants to keep learning? Amber: We absolutely have resources. We wrote an article for the NCTM's MTLT [Mathematics Teacher: Learning and Teaching PK-12] called “Discourse Actions to Promote Student Access .” And there are some vignettes in there that you can read through and then there [are] checklists with sentence stems for each of the linking and press moves. Melissa: Also, along with that article, we've used a lot of the resources from NCTM's Principles to Actions [Professional Learning] Toolkit.   that's online, and some of the resources are free and accessible to everyone. Amber: And if you wanted to dig in a bit more, we do have a book called Making Sense of Mathematics to Inform Instructional Quality. And that goes in-depth with all of our rubrics and has other scenarios and videos around the linking and press moves along with other parts of the rubrics that we were talking about earlier. Mike: That's awesome. We will link all of that in our show notes.  Thank you both so much for joining us. It was a real pleasure talking with you. Amber: Thanks for having us.  Melissa: Thank you. Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling all individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2024 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org References and Resources: NCTM: https://pubs.nctm.org/view/journals/mtlt/113/4/article-p266.xml#:~:text=Discourse%20actions%20provide%20access%20to,up%20on%20contributions%20from%20students ERIC: https://eric.ed.gov/?id=EJ1275372 https://www.nctm.org/PtAToolkit/ https://www.nctm.org/uploadedFiles/Conferences_and_Professional_Development/Annual_Meetings/LosAngeles2022/Campaigns/12-21_PtA_Toolkit.pdf?utm_source=nctm&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=LA2022&utm_content=PtA+Toolkit

Join co-hosts Annie Liontas and Lito Velázquez in conversation with LitFriends Melissa Febos & Donika Kelly about their grand statements, big revelations, sentential seduction, queering forms, the power of vulnerability, and love poems. We're taking a break and will be back for our next episode with guests Yiyun Li & Edmund White on January 16,  2024. Happy Holidays, LitFam!   LINKS Libsyn Blog www.annieliontas.com www.litovelazquez.com www.melissafebos.com www.donikakelly.com LitFriends LinkTree LitFriends Insta LitFriends Facebook TRANSCRIPT Annie: (00:00) This episode is dedicated to Chuck, a dog we have loved, and Donika and Melissa's sweet pup.   Annie & Lito: Welcome to LitFriends! Hey Lit Friends!   Annie: Welcome to the show.    Lito: Today, we're speaking with memoirist Melissa Febos and poet Donika Kelly, lit friends in marriage,   Annie: About seduction, big boss feelings, and sliding into DMs.   Lito: So grab your bestie,   Annie & Lito: And get ready to fall in love!   Annie: What I love about Melissa Febos, and you can feel this across all four of her books, is how she declares herself free. There's no ambiguity to this. This is her story, not your telling of it, not your telling of her. I meet her on the page as someone who's in an act of rebellion or an act of defiance. And I was not really surprised but delighted to find that, when I read Donika Kelly, I had sort of the same reaction, same impression. And I'm wondering if that's true for you, and, Lito, what your understanding of vulnerability and its relationship to power is.   Lito: The power for me in these conversations, and the power that the authors that we speak with possess, seems to me, in the ways that they have found how they are completely unique from each other. And more so than in our other conversations, Donika and Melissa, their work is so different. And yet, as you've pointed out, the overlap, and the fire, the energy, the defiance, the fierceness is so present. And it was present in our conversation. And so inspiring.   Annie: Yeah. I'm thinking even about Melissa Febos has this Ted Talk. (01:54) Where she says "telling your secrets will set you free." And it feels that not only is that true, but it's also very much an act of self reclamation and strength, right? Where we might read it as an act of weakness. It's actually in fact, a harnessing of the self.   Lito: Right, it's not that Melissa has a need to confess. It's that she really uses writing to find the truth about herself and how she feels about something, which that could not differ more from my writing practice.   Annie: How so?   Lito: I find that I sort of, I write out of an emotion or a need to discover something, but I already sort of am aware of where I am and who I am before I start. I find the plot and the characters as I go, but I know sort of how I feel.   Annie: Yeah, I think for me, I do feel like writing is an act of discovery where maybe I put something on the page, it's the initial conception, or yeah, like you coming out of a feeling. But as I start to ask questions, right, for me, it's this process of inquiry. I excavate to something maybe a little more surprising or partially hidden or unknown to myself.   Lito: That's true. There is a discovery of, and I think you're, I think you've pointed to exactly what it is. It's the process of inquiry, and I think both of them, and obviously us, we're doing that similar thing. This is about writing, about this, this is about asking questions and writing through them.   Annie: Yeah, and Donika Kelly, we feel that in her work, her poetry over and over, even when they have the same recurring, I would say haunting images or artifacts. Each time she's turning it over and asking almost unbearable questions.   Lito: Right.   Annie: And we're joining her on the page because she is brave enough and has an iron will and says, no, I will not not look this in the eye.    Lito: That's the feeling exactly that I get from both of them is the courage, the bravura of the unflinching.   Annie: I think something that seemed to resonate with you was (03:58) how they talk about writing outside of publishing right? Yeah.   Lito: Yeah, I love I love that they talk about writing as a practice regardless, they're separated from The need to produce a work that's gonna sell in a commercial world in a capitalist society. It's more about the daily practice, and how that is a lifestyle and even what you said about the TED talk, that's just her. She's just talking about herself. Like that she's just telling an absolute truth that people don't typically talk about.   Annie: Right. And it's a conscious, active way to live inside one's life. It's a form of reflection, meditation, and rather than just moving through life, a way to make meaning of the experience.   Lito: I love that you use the word meditation because when you talk about meditation, you think of someone in a lotus position quietly being, but the meditations that both of them do, these are not quiet.   Annie: No. And of course we have to talk about how cute they are as married literary besties.   Lito: Oh my god, cute and like, they're hot for each other.   Annie: Oh my god.   Lito: It's palpable.   Annie: So palpable, sliding into DMs, chatting each other up over email.   Lito: They romanced each other, and I hope—no—I know they're gonna romance you, listener.   Annie: We'll be right back.   Lito: (05:40) Back to the show.   Annie: Melissa Febos is the author of four books, including the best-selling essay collection Girlhood, which won the National Book Critics Circle Award, was a Lambda finalist, and was named a notable book by NPR, Time Magazine, the Washington Post, and others. Her craft book Body Work is a national bestseller and an Indie's Next Pick. Her forthcoming novel The Dry Season is a work of mixed form nonfiction that explores celibacy as liberatory practice. Melissa lives in Iowa City with her wife, the poet Donika Kelly, and is a professor in the English department at the University of Iowa, where she teaches creative writing.   Lito: Donika Kelly is the author of The Renunciations, winner of the Anisfield-Wolf Book Award in poetry and Bestiary, the winner of the 2015 Cave Canem Poetry Prize, a Hurston Wright Legacy Award for poetry, and the Kate Tufts Discovery Award. Donika has been a finalist for the National Book Critics Circle Award, the Publishing Triangle Awards, the Lambda Literary Awards, and was long listed for the National Book Award. (06:00) Donika lives in Iowa City with her wife, the writer Melissa Febos, and is an assistant professor in the English department at the University of Iowa, where she teaches creative writing.   Annie: Well, thank you for joining us for LitFriends to talk about the ultimate lit friendship. It does seem like you've won at the game of lit friends a little bit, having married your lit friend. I think of you both as writers who are in the constant act of subversion and resisting erasure. And that's the kind of work that Lito and I are drawn to, and that we're trying to do ourselves. And your work really shows us how to inhabit our bravest and most complex selves on the page. So we're really grateful for that.   Melissa: Thanks.   Annie: Yeah, of course. I mean, Donika, I think about poems of yours that my friends and I revisit constantly because we're haunted by them in the best way. They've taken residence inside of us. And you talk about what it means to have to do that work. And you've said, "to admit need and pain, desire and trauma and claim my humanity was often daunting. But the book demanded I claim my personhood."   And Melissa, I think you know how much your work means to me. I mean, as someone who is raised as a girl in this country and writing creative nonfiction, Body Work should not be as revelatory as it is. Yet what I see is that you're shaping an entire generation of nonfiction writers, many of them women. So, you know, also very grateful for that. And you've talked about that in Body Work. You've said "the risk of honest self-appraisal requires bravery to place our flawed selves in the context of this magnificent broken world is the opposite of narcissism, which is building a self-image that pleases you." So we'll talk more in a bit about courage and vulnerability and how you all do the impossible things you do, but let's dive into your lit friendship.   Melissa: Thank you, Annie, for that beautiful introduction.   Donika: Yeah, thank you so much. I'm excited to talk about our friendship.   Lito: We're so excited to have you here.   Melissa: Talk about our special friendship.   Annie: Very special friendship. Friendship with benefits.   Lito: So tell us about your lit friend, Melissa, tell us about Donika.   Melissa: (09:07) Tell us about her. Okay, she's fucking hilarious, like very, very funny and covers a broad spectrum of humor from like, there's a lot of like punning that goes on in our house, a lot of like silly wordplay, bathroom humor, and then like high level, like, literary academic sort of witticism that's also making fun of itself a lot. And we've sort of operated in all of those registers since like the day we met.   She is my favorite poet. There's like those artists that whose work you really appreciate, right? Sometimes because it's so different from your own. And then there are those artists whose work registers in like a very deep sort of recognition where they feel like creative kin, right? And that has always been my experience of Donika's work. That there is a kind of creative intelligence and emotionality that just feels like so profoundly familiar to me and was before I knew anything about her as a human being.   Okay, we also like almost all the same candy and have extremely opposite work habits. She's very hot. She only likes to watch like TVs and movies that she's seen many times before, which is both like very comforting and very annoying.   Lito: Well, I'm gonna have to follow that up now. What are some of the top hits?   Melissa: Oh, for sure, Golden Girls is at the very top. I mean…   Annie: No one's mad at that.   Lito: We can do the interview right now. Perfect. All we need to know. A++!   Melissa: She's probably like 50% of the time that she's sleeping, she falls asleep to the soundtrack of the Golden Girls or Xena, maybe. But we've also watched the more recent James Bond franchise, The Matrices, (11:00) and Mission Impossible, never franchises I ever thought I would watch once, let alone multiple times at some point.   Annie: I mean, Donika, your queerness is showing with that list.   Lito: Yeah.   Donika: I feel seen. I feel represented accurately by that list. She's not wrong. She's not wrong at all. But I've also introduced to her the pleasure of revisiting work.   Melissa: That's right.   Donika: And that was not a thing that Melissa was doing before we met, which feels confusing to me. Because I am a person who really likes to revisit. She was buying more books when we met, and now she uses the library more, and that feels like really exciting. That feels like a triumph on my part. I'm like…   Annie: That is a victory. Yeah.   Donika: …with the public services.   Melissa; Both of these examples really allude to like this deep, fundamental sort of capitalistic set of habits that I have, where I… like there's like this weird implicit desire to try to read as many books as possible before I perish, and also to hoard them, I guess. And I'm very happy to have been influenced out of that.   Annie: Well it's hard not to think—I think about that tweet like once a week that's like you have an imaginary bookshelf, and there are a limited amount of books on that you can read before you die, and that like troubles me every day.   Melissa: Yeah it's so fucked up. (12:22) I don't want that. It's already in my head. I feel like I was born with that in my head, and I'm trying to get free.   Lito: Same. Serious book FOMO, like…   Donika: There are so many books y'all.   Lito: I know. It's not possible.   Donika: And, it's like, there are more and more every year.   Annie: Well, uh Donika tell us about Melissa.   Donika: Oh Melissa As she has already explained we have a lot of fun It's a funny household. She's hilarious. Um, and also she's a writer of great integrity, which you know I'm sitting on the couch reading Nora Roberts, and she's like in her office hammering away at essays, and I don't know what's going on in there. I'm very nosy. I'm a deeply nosy person. Like, I just I want to know like what's going on. I want to know the whole history, and it's really amazing to be with someone who is like here it is.   Annie: How did you all meet?   Donika: (13:20) mere moments after Trump was elected in 2016. I was in great despair. I was living in Western New York. I was teaching at a small Catholic university. Western New York is very conservative. It's very red. And I was in this place and I was like, this place is not my place. This place is not for me. And I was feeling very alone. And Melissa had written an essay that came out shortly after about teaching creative writing at a private institution in a red county. And I was like, oh, she gets it, she understands.   I started, I just like looked for everything. I looked for like everything that she had written. I read it, I watched the TED talk. I don't know if y'all know about the TED talk. There was a TED talk. I watched the TED talk. I was like, she's cute. I read Whip Smart. I followed her on Twitter. I developed a crush, and I did nothing else. So this is where I pass the baton. So I did all of that.   Melissa: I loved Bestiaries, and I love the cover. The cover of her book is from this medieval bestiary. And so I just bought it, and I read it. And I just had that experience that I described before where I was just like, "Oh, fuck. Like this writer and I have something very deep in common." And I wrote her. I DMed her on Twitter.   Sometimes I obscure this part of the story because I want it to appear like I sent her a letter by raven or something. But actually, I slid into her DMs, and I just was like, "hey, I loved your book. If you ever come to New York and want help setting up a reading, like I curate lots of events, da da da." And I put my email in. And not five minutes later, refreshed my Gmail inbox, and there was an email from Donika, and…   Donika: I was like, "Hi. Hello. It's me."   Annie: So you agree with this timeline, Donika, right? Like, it was within five minutes.   Donika: Yeah, it was very fast. And I think if I hadn't read everything that I could get my hands on that Melissa had written, I may have been a little bit slower off the mark. It wasn't romantic. Like the connection, I wasn't like, oh, this is someone who like I want to (15:41) strike up a romantic relationship with, it really was the work. Like I just respected the work so much.   I mean, I did have a crush, like that was real, but I have crushes on lots of people, like that sort of flows in and out, but that often is a signifier of like, oh, this person will be my friend. And I was still married at the time and trying to figure out, like that relationship was ending. It was coming to a quick close that felt slow. Like it was dragging a little bit for lots of reasons.   But then once it was clear to me that I was getting divorced, Melissa and I continued writing to each other like for the next few months. Yeah. And then I was like, oh, I'm getting divorced. I was like, I'm getting divorced. And then suddenly the emails were very different. From both of us. It wasn't different.   Melissa: There had been no romantic strategy or intent, you know, and I think which, which was a really great way to, we really started from a friendship.   Annie: And sounds like a courtship really. I mean, it kind of is an old fashion.   Melissa: Yeah, in some way, it became that. I think it became that. But I think it was, I mean, the best kind of courtship begins as a, as a friendly courtship, you know what I mean? Where it was about sort of mutual artistic respect and curiosity and just interest. And it wasn't defined yet, like, what sort of mood that interest would take for a while, you know?   Lito: So how do you seduce each other on and off the page?   Donika: That's a great question.   Melissa: That is a great question.   Donika: I am not good at seduction. So that is not a skill set that is available to me. It has never been available.   Lito: I do not believe that.   Annie: I know. I'm also in disbelief out here, really.   Melissa: No one believes it, but she insists.   Annie: I feel like that's part of the game, is my feeling, but it is not.   Melissa: It's not. Here's the thing I will say is that like Donika, I've thought a lot about this and we've talked a lot about this because I balked at that statement as well. It's like Donika is seductive. Like there are qualities about her that are very seductive, but she does not seduce people. You know what I mean? Like she doesn't like turn on the charisma and shine it at you like a hypnotist. Like that's not… (18:08) that's not her form of seduction, but I will say…   I can answer that question in terms of like, I think in terms of the work, since we've been talking about that, like in a literary way, both in her own work, like the quality, like just someone who's really good at what they do is fucking sexy, you know? Like when I was looking for like a little passage before this interview, I was just like, "ah, this is so good." Like it's so attractive when someone is really, really good at their craft. right? Especially when it's a crop that you share.   Donika: So Melissa does have the ability to turn on what she has written about, which I think is really funny. Like she like she has like, she has a very strong gaze. It's very potent. And one of my gifts is to disrupt that and be like, what are you doing with your eyes? And so like, when I think about that in the work, when I'm reading her work, and I'm in like its deepest thrall, it is that intensity of focus that really like pulls me in and keeps me in. She's so good at making a grand statement.   Melissa: I was just gonna bring that up.   Donika: Oh, I think she and I like often get to, we arrive at sort of similar places, but she gets there from the grand statement, and I get there from the granular statement, like it's a very narrow sort of path. And then Melissa's like, "every love is a destroyer." I was like, whoa, every one? And there's something really compelling about that mode of— because it's earnest, and it's backed up by the work that she's written. I would never think to say that.   Melissa: I have a question for you, lit friend. Do you think you would be less into me if I weren't? Because I think for a nonfiction writer, I'm pretty obsessed with sentences. It's writing sentences that makes, that's the thing I love most about writing. It's like where the pleasure is for me. So I'm a pretty poetically inclined nonfiction writer. If I were less so, do you think that would be less seductive to you as a reader or a lit friend?   Donika: I mean, that's like asking me to imagine like, "so, what if… (20:30) water wasn't wet?" I just like, I can't like, I can't imagine. I do think the pleasure of the sentence is so intrinsic to like, I think there's something in the, in your impulse at the sentence level. That means that you're just careful. You're not rushing. You're not rushing us through an experience or keeping us in there and focused. And it's just it's tricky to imagine, or almost impossible to imagine what your work would look like if that weren't the impulse.   Lito: Yeah, I think that's an essential part of your style in some ways, that you're taking that time.   Melissa: Mm-hmm.    Annie: And how you see the world. Like I don't even think you would get to those big revelations Donika's talking about without it.   Melissa: Yeah. Right. I don't, yeah, I don't think I would either. We'll be right back.   Lito (21:19) Hey Lit Fam, Lit Friends is taking a break for the holiday. We hope you'll join us for our next episode with our guests, Ian Lee and Edmund White on January 16th. Till then, may your holiday be lit, your presents be numerous, and your 2024 be filled with joy and peace. If you'd like to show us some love, please take a moment now to follow, subscribe, rate, and review the LitFriends Podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Just a few moments of your time will help us so much. Big hugs to you and yours. Thank you for listening. And thank you for making season one a big success!   Annie: (22:05) Welcome back.   Lito: I've noticed that both of you, you know, you have your genres that you work in, but within that you're experimenting a lot with form and structure. Does anything of that come from being queer? I guess it's a question about queering forms of literature, and what that has to do also with the kinds of friendships that queer people have, and if that's different, maybe. So I guess I'm asking to connect form with queerness and friendship.   Melissa: That's a beautiful question. I think, and I'm starting with thinking about my relationship to form, which has been one of inheriting some scripts for forms. This is what an essay should look like. This is what plot structure looks like. This is how you construct a narrative. And sort of taking those for granted a little bit, and then pretty early on, understanding the limitations of those structures and the ways that they require that I contort myself and my content such that it feels like a perversion or betrayal of sort of what I'm dealing with, right? And so the way I characterize my trajectory, the trajectory of my relationship to form has been sort of becoming conscious of those inherited forms, and then pushing the boundaries of them and modifying them and distorting them and adding things to them and figuring out, letting my work sort of teach me what form it rests most easily in and is most transparent in. And I suspect that my relationship to friendship and particularly queer friendship mimics that.   Donika: Yeah, that sounds right to me. And I'm reminded of Denise Levertov has this essay titled "On the Function of the Line." And in it, she presents an argument that closed forms, received forms, are based on a kind of assumption of resolution, and that free verse or open design, like in a poem, it shows evidence of the speaker's thinking.   (24:24) Right? So that where the line breaks, the speaker is pausing, right? To gather their thoughts or like a turn might happen that's unexpected that mimics the turns in thinking. And I really love that essay. Like that essay is one of my favorites. So when I think about my approach to form, I'm like, what is the shape that this poem is asking for? What is the shape that will do, that will help the poem do its best work? And not even like to be good, but just like to be true.   I really love the sonnet shape. Like it's one of my favorite shapes. And it's so interesting and exciting to use a shape that is based on like argumentative structure or a sense of resolution, to explore. Like to use that as an exploratory space, it feels like queering our, like my expectations of what the sonnet does. Like there's something about the box. If I bounce around inside that box, there's gonna be something that comes out of that, that I wouldn't necessarily have gotten otherwise, but it's not resolution. Like the point is not resolution.   And when I think about my relationships and my chosen family, in particular, and to some degree actually my given family, part of what I'm thinking about is how can I show up and care and what does care look like in this relationship and how can I make room to be cared for? And that's so hard, like being cared for is so much more alien to me than, like, as a concept, like I feel like very anxious about it. I'm like, "am I asking for too much?" And like over and over again, my chosen family is like, "no, it's not too much. Like we, we got each other."   Melissa: I think particularly for queer people, we understand that it doesn't preclude romance or healthy kinds of dependency or unhealthy kinds of dependency, you know, that all of the things that happen in a very deep love relationship happen inside of friendship, where I think sort of like straight people and dominant culture have been like, "oh, no, like friendship isn't the site of like great romance or painful divorce or abuse." And queer people understand that all of those things happen within relationships that we call friendships.   Annie: (26:46) Yeah, I mean, I'm hearing you both talk about kind of queer survival and joy and even, Donika, what you were saying about having to adjust to being cared for as a kind of, you know, that's a sort of, to me, it's a sort of like a survivor's stance in the world. One of the things that I love about my kinship with Lito as, you know, my queer lit friend and, you know, brother from another mother is that he holds that space for me and I, you know, vice versa.   Even thinking about vulnerability, I think you both wield vulnerability as a tool of subversion too, right? And again, Lito and I are both creating projects right now that require a kind of rawness on the page. I'm about to publish a memoir called Sex with a Brain Injury, so I'm very consciously thinking about how we define vulnerability, what kind of work it does to reshape consciousness in the collective. And the ways that you each write about trauma helps us understand it as an act of reclamation, you know, power rather than powerlessness. So maybe you could talk a little bit about what is or what can be transformative about the confessional and maybe even more to the point, what does your lit friend teach you about vulnerability?   Melissa: (28:06) Oh, God, what doesn't she teach me about vulnerability? It's interesting because like you're correct that vulnerability is like very central to my work and to the like lifelong project of my work, and also like there's literally nothing on earth I would like to avoid more. And I don't think that is visible in my work, right? Because my work is the product of counteracting that set of instincts, which I must do to survive because the part of me that wants to avoid vulnerability, its end point is like literally death for me.   It is writing for me often starts from like kind of a pragmatic practice. I don't start like feeling my feelings. I write to get to my feelings and sometimes that doesn't happen until like after a book is published sometimes. You know like it's really interesting lately I've been confronting some feelings in like a really deep way that I think I have gotten access to from writing Girlhood, which came out in 2021. And it's like I had to sort of lay it all out, understand what happened, redefine my role in it and everyone else's. And I definitely had feelings while I was writing it. But like the feelings that Donika refers to as the big boss, like the deepest feelings about it. Like I, I feel like I'm only really getting. to it now.   My relationship to vulnerability, it's just like, it's a longitudinal process, you know? And there's no one who's taught me about that and how to be sort of like gentle and patient within that and to show up for it than Donika.   And I'm just thinking of like, you know, starting from pretty early in our relationship, she was working on the poems in The Renunciations, and over the years of our early, the early years of our relationship, she was confronting some childhood, some really profound childhood trauma. And she was doing that in therapy. And then there were like pieces of that work that she had to do in the poems. And I just watched her not force it. And when it was time, she like created the space to do the work. And like, I wasn't (30:35) there for that. I don't think anyone else really could have been there for that. And just like showing up for that work.   And then like the long tail of like publishing a book and having conversations with people and the way that it changes one's relationship and like the act of the vulnerability—achieved feels like the wrong word—but the vulnerability like expressed or found in the writing process, how that is just like a series of doorways and a hallway that maybe it never terminates. Maybe it doesn't even turn into death. I don't know. You know, but I've just seen her show up for that process with like a patience and a tenderness for herself at every age that I find incredibly challenging. And it's been super instructive for me.   Donika: Ooh. I, I'm, it makes me really happy to know that's your experience of like being like in like shared artistic space together. I think I go to poetry to understand, to help myself understand what it is that I'm holding and what it is that I wanna put down. Like that's what the poems are for. You know, like the act of writing helps me sort out what I need and what I wanna put down because narrative is so powerful. It feels like the one place where I can say things that are really hard, often because I've already said them in therapy.   Right? So then it's like, I can then explore what having said those hard things means in my life or how it sits in my life. And what Melissa shows me is that one can revise. I know I've said this like a few times, but that one can have a narrative. Like I think about reading Whipsmart and the story that she has about herself as a child in Whipsmart, and then how that begins to change a bit in Abandon Me. And then in Girlhood, it's really disrupted. And there is so much more tenderness there, I think. It looks really hard. Like, honestly, that joint looks hard because I might be in a poem, but I'm in it for like, like we're in it, like if I were to read it out loud for like a minute and a half.   Melissa: (33:50) It's interesting hearing you talk. I wonder if this is true. I think I'm hearing that it is true. And I think that's where it's with my experience that you often get to the feelings like in therapy or wherever, and then write the poems as more of a sort of emotional, but like also cognitive and kind of systemic and like a way of like making sense of it or putting it in context. And I think very much I, there'll be like deeply submerged feelings that emerge only as like impulses or something, you know, but I experience writing— I don't that often feel intense emotion while I'm writing. I think it's why that is writing is almost always the first place that I encounter my own vulnerability or that I say the like unspeakable thing or the thing that I have been unable to say. I often write it and then I can talk to my therapist about it or then I can talk to Donika about it.   And I think I can't. I'm too afraid or it feels like too much to feel the feelings while I'm writing. So I sort of experience it as a cognitive or like intellectual and creative exercise. And then once I understand it, sometime in the next five years, I feel the feelings.   Annie: Do you feel like it's a kind of talking to yourself or like talking outside of the world? Like what is it in that space that does that for you?   Melissa: Yeah, I do. I mean, it's like. Talking outside the world makes more sense to me than talking to myself. I mean, it is talking to myself, right? It's a conversation with myself, but it's removed from the context of me in my daily life. That's why it's possible. Within my daily life, I'm too connected to other people and my own internal pressures and just like the busy, superficial part of me that's like driving a lot of my days. I have to get away from her in order to do that work.   And so the writing really happens in a kind of separate space and feels like it is not, it has a kind of privacy that I don't experience in any other way in my life, where I really have built or found a space where I am never thinking about what other people think of me, and I'm not imagining a skeptical reader. (35:18) It is really like this weird spiritual, emotional, creative, intellectual space that is just separate from all of that, where I can sort of think and be curious freely.   And I think I created that space or found it really early on because I was, even as a kid, I was a person who was like so concerned with the people around me, with the adults around me, with what performances were expected of me. And being a person who was like very deeply thinking and feeling, I was like, well, there's no room for that here. So I need to like find somewhere else to do it. And so I think writing became that for me way before I thought about being a writer.   Lito: That's so fascinating to me. I think that's so different than how I work or Donika works or a lot of people I know. We'll be right back.   Lito: (36:26) Back to the show.   So this question is for both of you really, but it just makes me wonder then like, what is the role for emotion, but in particular anger? How does that like, when things get us angry, sometimes that motivates us to do something, right? So if you're not being inspired by an emotion to write, you're writing and then finding it, how does anger work as not only a tool for survival, but maybe a path towards personhood and freedom?   Donika: Oh, I was just thinking, I can't write out of that space, the space of anger. It took me a long time to get in touch with anger as a feeling. That took a really long time because in my family, in my given family, the way that people expressed anger was so dangerous that I felt that I didn't want to occupy those spaces. I didn't want to move emotionally into that, into that space if that was what it looked like. And it took me a long time to figure out how to be angry. And I'm still not sure that I'm great at it. Because I think often I'm moving quickly to like what's under that feeling. And often what's under my feelings of being angry, often, not always, is being hurt, feeling hurt. And I can… write into exploring what that hurt is, because I know how to do that with some tenderness and some care.   Melissa: I feel similarly, which is interesting, because we've never talked about this, I don't think. But anger is also a feeling that I think, for very different reasons, when I was growing up… I mean, I think just like baseline being socialized as a girl dissuaded me from expressing anger or even from feeling it, because where would that go?   But I also think in the particular environment that I was in, I understood pretty early that my expressions of anger would be like highly injurious to the people around me and that it would be better if I found another way to express those things. I think my compulsive inclinations have been really useful in that way. And it's taken me a lot of my adult life to sort of… (38:44) take my anger or as Donika said, you know, like anger for me almost always factors down to something that is largely powerlessness, you know, to sort of not take the terror and fury of powerlessness and express it through like ultimately self harming means.   Writing can be a way for me to arrive at like justifiable anger and to sort of feel that and let that move through me or to be like, oh, that was unjust. I was powerless in that situation. You know? Yeah, it has helped me in that way. But like, if I'm really being honest, I think I exhaust myself with exercise. And that's how I mostly deal with my feelings of anger.   Annie: Girl.   Melissa: Yeah, there's also a way I will say that like, I do think it actually comes out in my work in some ways. Like there is like a very direct, not people-pleasing vibe and tone in my work that is genuine, but that I almost never have in my life. Like maybe a little bit as a professor, but like    When Donika met me, she was like, "Oh… like you're just like this little gremlin puppy person. You're not like this intense convicted former dominatrix." You know, which is, I express it in my writing because it is a space where I'm not worried about placating or pleasing really. It's a space where I'm, I am almost solely interested in what I actually think.   Donika: I was just thinking about like the beginning of, I think it's "Wild America," when you talk about like not cleaning your room, Melissa. Because you didn't, like when you were a kid, right? It was like you cleaned your room when you wanted to appear good, but that didn't matter to you when you were alone in your room. Like you could get lost in a book or you could, you know, like just be inside yourself alone when you were alone in your room. And that's one of my favorite passages that you read. Like I'm always sort of like mouthing along, like it's a song.   Melissa: (40:57) I'm just interested and I really love the sort of conception of like a girl's room as a potential space that sort of maps on to the way I described the writing space where it's just like a space where other, where the gaze of others, or the gaze that we're taught to please like can be kept out to some extent. And just like, you know, that isn't true, obviously for like lots and lots and lots of girls, but just that there is an impetus for us to create or invent or designate a space where that is true.   Lito: Yeah, I think that's what she's up to in "A Room of One's Own."   Annie: It makes me think of like girls' rooms as like kind of also these reductive spaces, like they all have to have pink or whatever, but then you like carve out a secret space for yourself in that room, which I think is what you're talking about with your writing.   Donika: Oh, I was just thinking about what happens when you don't have a room like that, cause I didn't, like I absolutely did not have a room that was… inviolable in some way or that like really felt like I could close the door. But writing became a place where that work could happen and where those explorations could happen and where I could do whatever I want and I had control over so many aspects of the work. And I hesitated because I was saying I didn't have that much control over the content.   Like I might think, oh, I'm gonna write a poem about this or a poem about that. And as is true with most writing, the poems are so much smarter and reveal so much more than I might have intended, but I could like shape the box. There are just like so many places to have control in a poem, like there's so many mechanisms to consider where like when Melissa was first sharing like early work with me, I would get so nervous because I would wanna move a comma.   Because in a poem, like that's a big deal, moving somebody's commas around, changing the punctuation. And she was like, "it doesn't matter."   Melissa: I would get nervous because she would be like, "well, I just have one note, but it's like, kind of big." And I would be like, "oh, fuck, I failed." And she would be like,    Donika: "What's going on with these semicolons?"   Melissa: She'd be like, "I just, these semicolons."   Annie: You know, hearing you both talk about (43:20) how you show up for one another as readers, right? In addition to like romantic partners. I mean, we do have the sense, and this can be true of all marriages, queer or otherwise, where like we as readers have a pretty superficial understanding of what you kind of each bring to the table or how you create this protective space or really see one another. I imagine that you've saved yourselves, but I'm curious about to what extent this relationship may have also been a way to save you or subvert relationships that have come before. And yet at the same time, we've asked this question of other lit friends too, which is, you know, what about competition between lit friends? And what does that look like in a marriage? What is a good day versus a bad day?   Donika: I mean, we could be here for years talking about that first question. And so I'm gonna turn to the second part to talk about competition, which is much easier to handle.   I feel genuinely and earnestly so excited at the recognition that Melissa has received. Part of what was really exciting for me about the beginning of our relationship that continues to be exciting is that, is getting to watch someone be truly mid-career and navigate that with integrity. It feels like such a good model, for how to be a writer.   I mean, she's much more forward-facing than I would ever want to be. But I think in terms of just thinking about like, what is the work? How, like, where is the integrity? Like, it's just, it's always so, so forward and it feels really grounding for me and us in the house, so it's always big cheers in here. It helps that we write in different genres. I think that's super helpful.   Melissa: I think it's absolutely key. Yeah.   Donika: It's not, I mean, I think, and that we have very different measures of ambition. I think those two things together are really, really helpful.   But I've read everything that Melissa has written, I think. (45:38) There might be like a few little, I mean, I've read short story, like that short, there was like a short story from like shortly, I think after you, like before you were in your MFA program, maybe.   Melissa: Oh my God. What short story?   Donika: I can't, I'll find it. And show it to you later.   Melissa: Is it about that little plant?   Donika: No, no, it might've been an essay. I'm not sure.   Annie: I love this. This is sort of hot breaking news on LitFriends.   Donika: It's like, I've just like, I did a deep Google dive. I was like, I want to read everything and it's, it feels really exciting.   Melissa: You know, I've dated writers before, and it was a different situation. And I think even if I hadn't, even before I ever did, I thought, that seems unlikely to work. Because even though there are lots of like obvious ways that it could be great, the competition just seemed like such a poison dart that it would be really hard to avoid because writers are competitive, and I'm competitive. And maybe it would have been harder if we were younger or something.   And certainly if we were in the same genre, I think actually, who knows? Maybe it would be possible if we were in the same genre, but it would require a little more care. Even if for some reason we would never publish again, we would keep writing. It just like it functions in our lives in similar ways. And it's like a practice that we came to, you know, I have a more hungry ambition or have historically. And I think our relationship is something that helps me keep the practice at the center because we're constantly talking about it. And I'm constantly observing Donika's relationship to her work. So it really hasn't felt very relevant. Like it's kind of shocking to me how, how little impact competition or comparing has in our relationship. It's really like not even close to one of the top notes of things that might create conflict for us, you know, and I'm so grateful for that. And so happy to have like underestimated what's possible when you have a certain level of intimacy and respect and sort of compatibility with someone.   Lito: We'll be right back.   Annie: (47:57) Welcome back. Well, then I'm wondering, you know, you both have had some like incredible successes in the last few years. And I'm wondering if conversely, you've been able to show up for one another in moments of high pressure or exposure, or, you know, having to confront the world, having been vulnerable on the page in the ways you have been.   Melissa: Donika was not planning on having a book launch for The Renunciations.   Donika: What's a book launch? Like, why do people do that?   Annie: Listen, mine's going to be a dance party, Donika. So…   Melissa: And I made, meanwhile, like when I published Abandon Me, I had a giant dance party that I had like several costume changes for during. But I remember feeling pretty confident about making a strong case multiple times for her to have a book launch for The Renunciations. And also like having a lot of respect and like tenderness watching her navigate what it meant to take work that vulnerable and figure out how to like speak for it and talk about it and like present it to the world. Parts of her would have preferred to just let the book completely speak for itself out there.    Donika: But you were right it was a good time.   Melissa: I was right.   Donika: Because like when Melissa's so when Girlhood came out it was like, that was still the time of like so many virtual events. And it was just like, I think that first week there was like something every day that week, like there was an event every day that week. And now, now like, again, I had to be talked into having a book launch. So I own this. Um, but I was like, Ooh, why, why would you do that? Oh, yeah. Four?   Melissa: This is definitely one of the ways that she and I are like diametrically opposed, and therefore I think, helpful to each other in sort of like creating a kind of tension that can be uncomfortable but is mostly good for both of us to be sort of pulled closer to the middle.   Donika: But my favorite part of that is then hearing you give advice to your friends who are very similar and be like, "whoa, you did too much. You put too many things on the calendar."     Melissa: (50:15) You know, some people would say that that's hypocrisy, but I actually think, I have a real dubious like position and thinking about hypocrisy because I am an expert in overdoing things. And so I think I speak from, I am like the voice of Christmas future. You know what I mean? I'm like, let me speak to you from the potential future that you are currently planning with your publicist. And like, it's not pretty and it doesn't feel good. And it's not, it has not delivered the feeling that you're imagining when you're scheduling all those events.   Annie: I can appreciate this. And I appreciate Donika's kind of role, this particular role in a relationship, because sometimes I just have to go see Leto and literally just lay on Lito and be like, stop me from doing anymore.   Melissa: I know, I know.   Lito: You and Sara are like super overachievers. I have to be like, "can you calm down?"   Annie: We do too much.   Lito: Way too much. What would you like to see your lit friend make or create next?   Donika: I got two answers to this. The first one is the Cape Cod lesbian mystery. I'm ready. You know, we got, I've offered so much assistance as a person who will never write prose. Um, but I got notes and ideas. The second one is, uh, a micro essay collection titled Dogs I Have Loved. Cause I think it would be a New York Times bestseller.   Lito: Oh, I love that.   Donika: I know.   Lito: Speaking of, who's the little gremlin puppy there?   Donika: Oh, yeah, that's Chuck. Chuck is a 15-year-old chihuahua. I've had him since he was a puppy.   Annie: Is Chuck like a nickname, or is that just, it's just Chuck?   Donika: It's just Chuck.   Lito: I love that.   Melissa: His nickname is Charles sometimes. One of his nicknames is Charles, but his full name is Chuck.   Melissa: OK, so I would say, I mean, my first thought at this question was like, I want Donika to keep doing exactly what she's been doing? As far as I can tell, she doesn't have a lot of other voices getting in the way of that process. My second thought is that I'm really interested. I've never heard her talk. She has no interest in writing prose of any kind. She is like deeply wedded to poetry. But I have heard her talk more recently about potential collaborations with (52:40) other artists, visual artists and other writers. And I would, I'm really excited to see what comes out of that space.   Lito: Would you all ever collaborate beyond your marriage?   Annie: I could see you all doing a craft book together.   Melissa: I feel like we could make like a chapbook that had prose and poems in it that were responding to a shared theme. I could definitely see that.   Donika: I really thought you were gonna say Love Poems for Melissa Febos, that's what you wanted to see next.   Melissa: I mean, I already know that that's on deck, so I don't... I mean, it's in, it's on the docket. It's on deck. Yeah. So…   Lito: Those sonnets, get to work on the sonnets.   Donika: Such a mess.   Melissa: This is real, you think, this is not, like, a conversation of the moment. This is…   Annie: Oh no, we can, this is history.   Donika: "Where's my century of sonnets?" she says.   Lito (53:33) What is your first memory?   Donika: Dancing?   Melissa: Donika telling me I'm pretty.   Annie (54:15.594) Who or what broke your heart first?   Melissa: Maddie, our dog.   Donika: Kerri Strug, 1996 Olympics. Vault.   Lito: Atlanta.   Donika: The Vault final. Yeah. Heartbreaking.   Lito: Who would you want to be lit friends with from any time in history, living or dead?   Donika: I just thought Gwendolyn Brooks. I'm gonna go with that.   Lito: I love Gwendolyn Brooks.   Donika: Oh yeah.   Melissa: My first thought is Baldwin.   Donika: It's a great party. We're at a great party.   Melissa: I just feel like I would be like, "No, James!" all the time.   Melissa: (54:30) Or like Truman Capote.   Lito: It'd be wild.   Donika: Messy. So messy.   Annie: What's your favorite piece of music?   Melissa: Oh my god, these questions are crazy! "Hallelujah"?   Donika: Oh god, there's an aria from Diana Damraus' first CD. She's a Soprano. And it's a Mozart aria, and I don't know where it's from, and I can't tell you the name because it's in Italian and I don't speak Italian, but that joint is exceptional. So that's what I'm gonna go with. Oh God, just crying in the car.   Lito: If you could give any gift to your lit friend without limitations, what would you give them?   Donika: Just like gold chains. So many gold chains. Yeah! If I could have a gold chain budget, it'd be a lot.   Annie: (55:23) Donika, we can do this.   Lito: Achievable.   Donika: I mean, yeah. Yeah.   Lito: Bling budget.   Donika: That's the first thing I thought.   Annie: Love it.   Donika: Just like gold, just thin gold chains, thick gold chains.   Melissa: I'm going to go with that, then, and say an infinite sneaker budget.   Lito: Yes. Oh, I want a shoe room. (55:50) That'd be awesome.   Melissa: We need two shoe rooms in this house, or like one. Or we just need to have a whole living room that's just for shoes.   Donika: I just like there's just like one closet that's just like for shoes. Like that's what we need.   Lito: That's great.   Donika: Yeah, but it's actually a room. Yes. With like a sorting system, it's like computer coded.   Annie: Soft lighting. That's our show.   Annie & Lito: Thanks for listening.   Lito: We'll be back next week with our guests Yiyun Li and Edmund White.   Annie: Find us on all your socials @LitFriendsPodcast.   Lito: Don't forget to reach out and tell us about the love affair of you and your LitFriend.   Annie: I'm Annie Liontas.   Lito: And I'm Lito Velázquez. Thank you to our production squad. Our show is edited by Justin Hamilton.   Annie: Our logo was designed by Sam Schlenker.   Lito: Lizette Saldana is our marketing director.   Annie: Our theme song was written and produced by Robert Maresca.   Lito: And special thanks to our show producer, Toula Nuñez.   Annie: This was LitFriends, Episode Three.    

After 24 years of service, Melissa was given 1 hour to clear her desk with no word of thanks! However, this allowed her to rethink her life. She was open to being guided as to what was next. She shares her story of how a seemingly devastating circumstance led her to step into her true passion & purpose! Show notes:  Melissa embarks on an unexpected path of self-discovery and empowerment after being suddenly let go from her corporate position, eventually leading her to become a health coach and create a foundation to help girls in undeveloped nations access school and break the poverty cycle.   Melissa Deally is a health coach, podcast host, and founder of Your Guided Health Journey. She is passionate about helping people optimize their health and guiding them through their health journey.   In this episode, you will learn the following: 1. How to optimize health to avoid getting sick and not needing to wait for a "wake-up call". 2. The power of investing in one's own health journey to achieve better results. 3. How a series of unforeseen circumstances led to her becoming a successful health coach.   Connect with Melissa Deally:  Your Guided Health Journey Melissa Deally on Linkedin   Connect with Sabine Skvenberg:  https://www.sabinekvenberg.com/resources  Sabine Skvenberg on Facebook Sabine Skvenberg on Linkedin Sabine Skvenberg on YouTube BECOME Podpage   ➤Are you looking for the finest online platform to build and sell courses swiftly? Why not try Kajabi? All the tools of Kajabi make it easier for you to create online courses, podcasts, coaching, memberships, and more! Try the 30-day free trial and make the most out of it. And if you're just getting started and want to put your offer up for sale in three days or less, follow this link and apply to "MAKING IT HAPPEN." TRANSCRIPT   00:00:00 Melissa: So I had a really good mindset around understanding that I just have to get started. I may not feel ready, and that's okay. If I wait to feel ready, I will never start. 00:00:15 Sabine: That's right. And to quote the great Zig Ziglar, "You don't have to be great to start, but you have to start to be great." 00:00:24 Sabine: Welcome to my podcast, BECOME. The content will inspire you to take steps towards reaching your aspirations and becoming the best version of yourself. I feature interviews with successful individuals from various industries, delving into their personal and professional journeys and their strategies to achieve their goals. We have to become the person we are meant to be so we can live the life we are destined to live. That means we must overcome challenges and work through difficult times to learn, grow, and become the more incredible version of ourselves. I am so glad that you're here. Let's get on this journey together. 00:01:10 Sabine: My guest today is health coach Melissa Deally. She is the host of the podcast “Don't Wait for Your Wake Up Call!” and founder of Your Guided Health Journey. 00:01:23 Sabine: Welcome, Melissa. How are you today? 00:01:26 Melissa: I'm doing wonderfully, thank you. How are you, Sabine? 00:01:29 Sabine: Oh, I'm fantastic. So where are you calling in from? 00:01:34 Melissa: I'm actually coming in from Whistler, British Columbia, Canada. So the ski hill is right out my window. 00:01:40 Sabine: Boohoo! Another international guest. I love it. Yeah, we recently met during Podapalooza, which is an event where we both were featured as podcasters, and we didn't have the chance to meet then, so we thought we'll catch up here. 00:01:59 Melissa: Exactly. 00:02:00 Sabine: Yeah. Your podcast is called ‘Don't Wait for Your Wake Up Call!.' Can you tell us more about your podcast? 00:02:07 Melissa: Sure, I would love to. Thank you. I named it back because what I am doing with that podcast is bringing health information to people so that they can be able to make better choices in their health journey. And our health is always a journey from the moment we come onto this planet to the moment we leave. However, we often don't get taught how we can truly optimize our health through our education system or even through our medical system. Our medical system is often helping you once you get sick, but why do we have to wait till we get sick? And so that's what I'm trying to give people, is that education on how to optimize  our health so we don't have to wait to get sick, and hence, don't wait for your wake up call. 00:02:56 Sabine: So, Melissa, we had a prior conversation, and before you started your health journey or health education journey, you were in a totally different field, and you were actually in the corporate world, and you worked there for 24 years. And then you got this devastating quote, unquote in that moment, I'm sure it was devastating news that you were laid off. So tell us first, what did you do for 24 years? 00:03:38 Melissa: I worked in a hotel company in Canada, and it was a brand that had over 40 hotels across the country. And it was my responsibility to bring all of the Asian guests to the hotels across Canada because I had the good fortune to be raised in Asia. I speak Japanese, I understand the Asian cultures. So it was a really good fit. And I absolutely loved this job. It allowed me to travel back to Asia on business. I could also then see my friends. So I absolutely loved this work. 00:04:10 Sabine: Can you still speak Japanese? Can you give us a sentence of Japanese? 00:04:17 Melissa: Sure. I do still speak Japanese. And yes, "Ohayou gozaimasu. Genki desu ka? Ikaga desu ka?" is, you know, "Good morning. How are you?" As simple as that.     00:04:29 Sabine: I love it. I love it . So you are in Canada and then you lost the job, but then a big fish bought the little fish, and then you were basically given 1 hour to clear out your desk without even a thank you. 00:04:51 Melissa: Yes. 00:04:52 Sabine: How was that experience? What did you feel and were you angry? What was that experience for you? 00:04:59 Melissa: I was a, first of all, shocked because we had been told as salespeople that we were not going to be the first ones let go because we would need to have time to transition our client base to other people, et cetera, et cetera. And so that's a, first of all, what we had been told when we heard the sale was happening, and then to find out that I was really one of the first to be let go and the hour to clear out my desk, that was shocking. But it just hurt that there was no words of thank you through that entire process. And it was probably about five days later when HR contacted me. And I wasn't the only one being let go. Hundreds of us were being let go. So HR was very busy and it took them probably about five days until we were able to connect. 00:05:53 Melissa: And I said to them, they were checking in, how are you doing? And I said, "You know what, I get it. This is business. This is what happens. But I just want to say that I'm just the most hurt. It's simply that there wasn't even any kind of thank you for my years of service." And then the HR person said, "Well, that was actually going to be the next thing I said, which sounds really inauthentic now that you've told me that. I'm sorry that you didn't get that in that moment when you got the phone call that you were being let go." 00:06:24 Sabine: Wow. So what did you do after finding yourself without a job? 00:06:29 Melissa: Well, I was grateful for the fact that because I had been there 24 years, I did receive a payout. And so I didn't feel like I had to rush into another job tomorrow in order to make the mortgage payments, et cetera. So I did give myself that gift of space to figure out what it truly was that I wanted to do next. I didn't want to stay in the same industry, I did look at this as one door closes, another door opens. This is an opportunity for me to do something completely different with the second half of my career, and that's what I consider it. So I needed time to figure out what that was, and I was open to being guided. 00:07:16 Melissa: And over the course of the next four or five months, I was actually introduced to a supplement company. And I thought, "I don't want to do supplements. Everybody does supplements." Until I found out that it was supplements specifically for the brain. And I found that interesting because I knew there was near epidemic levels of Alzheimer's and dementia. And if I could share this with the world and start to reduce the rates of Alzheimer's and dementia by educating people about looking after their brain, well, that would be one of those touchstones that I said I wanted to help humanity more, and that would help. So I looked at it and I went, "This is interesting." 00:07:59 Melissa: And it got me thinking, because my grandmother was 99 at the time, and she lived at home all by herself, cared for herself, and fully cognitively functioning. And so I knew that I had good genes, but I wondered is that enough? If I want to be on her path versus the Alzheimer's and dementia path, are my good genes enough or do I have to do more? And then I started comparing her life to my life. And she was born in little old Christchurch, New Zealand, in 1916, you know, bottom corner of the Earth, before all the toxins we have in the world today. Growing all their own food on the property. And then I was raised in Tokyo, Japan. Amazing life. However, it was in the 1970s with manufacturing plants, spewing out toxins, and I realized I'm way more toxic than my grandmother was. I need to do more. 00:08:54 Sabine: Absolutely. 00:08:56 Melissa: So I started learning about the brain because I was intrigued. You use your brain 24/7, right? So I was like, "If I can do more for my brain, I probably should." So I started learning about the brain, learning about toxicity and how it impacts the brain and the body . And about four months later, my oldest daughter got a concussion in her first grade. 12 soccer games of the season. 00:09:19 Sabine: Yes, we are living in a different world, and I totally understand where you're coming from. The matter of the fact is, my mother-in-law just passed away last year from Alzheimer's, and I know how difficult it is for many, many people. So talking about being guided, you took the time and just let the universe direct something to you. And now, your daughter had a concussion. So how did this all work together ? 00:10:08 Melissa: So she had that concussion and she had literally just started using this supplementation for the brain, and I realized as I looked at what the supplementation for the brain was doing, that it would be very beneficial in her recovery. So I continued having her use it, while also ensuring that she was getting treatment with local physiotherapists that specialize in concussion therapy. And my piece was kind of bringing the nutritional piece to it. She also didn't have the cognitive ability to go to the appointment and come home and tell me what they said she needed to do before her next appointment because of the concussion. So I wasn't working full time, right? Everything happens for a reason. Now, I'm able to go to the appointments with her, so I can capture that information and then also remind her to do those things each day because the healing isn't at the appointment. The healing happens between the appointments, right ? So that's what we were doing. And it's a very difficult injury because she didn't ask for the concussion. 00:11:16 Melissa: And now she's in grade 12, she can't go to school, she can't do any of the fun things that all the other grade twelve kids are doing. She's very isolated, has low energy, can't be around lots of noises, and so it's very hard and a lot of people will go into a depression. So I was trying to manage that along with the good nutrition. Two months into her recovery, I got a phone call when I was driving to Vancouver from the high school to please go and pick up my younger daughter who had a suspected concussion from grade 8 gym class. And in that moment, I looked out my windshield, across the water, up at the heavens and said, really? This is how you show me my path? Please stop taking out my children. So now I have two daughters with two very different concussions, both using very good brain supplementation, both going to  therapy, et cetera, and guiding their journeys. And I realized people need more support in their health journey. 00:12:23 Melissa: The body only heals in a relaxed state. And when you're trying to figure out your health journey on your own, you're still in a stress state and the body can't heal because you're wondering am I doing it right? Is this the right information? You can go on Google and get ten different things that you should do, or diagnose yourself as imminently passing away tomorrow, which is very stressful. So people need more support and a little bit more hand holding. 00:12:51 Melissa: And soon after I was invited to work at a holistic clinic, and I wasn't able to get insurance to work there because I didn't have a certification. I only had my own research that I had done in order to guide my daughter's healing. So that led me to go back to school, and I contacted a friend who was a life coach, because life coach had kind of been ruminating in the back of my head. Is that something I want to do? But it hadn't landed. And I called this friend and said, "Look, I need to go back to school. I need to get a certification under my belt. Where did you do your life coaching training?" And he said you don't need to be a life coach. You need to be a health coach. And I went, "What? What's that?" I've never even heard the term. That landed. And I considered that another gift from the universe through my friend. 00:13:40 Melissa: And I researched health coaching schools, found one that I absolutely aligned with because of its focus on the brain as well, and jumped right in. And within 10 days, I was in this new cohort of students. And from that moment, I have never looked back. I couldn't get enough of this information. And I was like, "I'm in my 40s, why am I only learning this about my body now?" And then I realized, well, if I don't know this because I've been busy with my corporate career and being a mom and being a wife and having a life, I bet there's all these other people out there that don't know this either. And what if I learn this and then I teach it to them in ways that they can easily work it? 00:14:24 Sabine: Let me hop in here really quick to share something with you. Have you ever tried to build your own website, start a newsletter or build a course and charge for it? Have you ever wanted to make money online, but are totally confused by all the different systems you need to have? That's why I use Kajabi. Kajabi is the most popular system for online marketers, coaches, thought leaders and influencers. Kajabi helps online entrepreneurs take off. Over hundred thousands of us use Kajabi and have made over $4 billion. Why not be part of it? The best thing is you don't have to figure out tons of systems or crazy technology to start your online business. Kajabi helps you do all of that and it's all on one platform. That's why I use it. It makes my life so much easier and I can even earn money while I'm sleeping. You can build your web pages, blogs and membership sites. You can create offers, check out pages and collect money. You can host your videos. You can start your newsletter list, capture emails, start your marketing funnels all in one place. It makes it fun and easy with awesome tutorials and support. Since I've joined Kajabi from the beginning, I have a special affiliate link that I would like to share with you. A 30-day free trial. So nothing to lose, but everything to gain. Just go to my link that's in the show notes, sabineskvenberg.com/resources and we will redirect you to the free trial page. And if you are just starting out and want to get your offer out for sale in just three days, let me help you do that, visit my web page, by the way, that I build on Kajabi and apply to “MAKING IT HAPPEN.” So now let's get back to the show. 00:16:34 Sabine: I love it because this and just seeing you when we have this interview, it's also on video. So just seeing you, when you explained how you kind of found your calling, you were lit up. That means you really pursued your passion, what you are passionate about, and you found something within, but you also took the action, the right action to get the right education to start something on your own. And when I work with my clients, this is the first thing that I go through to guide them, to really find, to let go of the old things that don't serve them any longer and then really being open to receiving the news. Because you see, if you are preoccupied, like with your job or whatever else in your life, you're not open to receiving something new. 00:17:40 Melissa: True. 00:17:40 Sabine: And sometimes something devastating has to happen to become our next greater self. And I totally can see this with you. So you did the health education and then what? How did you then start your own business? 00:17:59 Melissa: So what I did is I completed one level of my health education and learned so much there. And one of the things that I learned is that your learning never ends either. The program was excellent, though. And this was another aspect that I enjoyed, is that they have included in my training, business coaching to help you get started in your business. And that was phenomenal because I'd been in the corporate world, there was people that did the marketing, people that did the accounting, people that did all the aspects. And now as a solopreneur, you're wearing all those hats and you need to learn how to do all of these things. 00:18:43 Melissa: So my program included that training at a very basic level, but it was enough for me to get started. What I also loved about the training was the focus on our mindset and how our beliefs impact our behaviors, which impact our results. And I had also read the book, ‘The Growth Mindset' by Carol Dweck. So I had a really good mindset around understanding that I just have to get started. I may not feel ready and that's okay. If I wait to feel ready, I will never start. 00:19:22 Sabine: That's right. And to quote the great Zig Ziggler, "You don't have to be great to start, but you have to start to be great." So you just got started. And when was that? When did you start your business? 00:19:36 Melissa: That was in 2017. And another step that really helped me get started was part of our training required that we do some case studies with clients and that we actually take clients through the entire program. And that was required for completion of the program. And it was up to us as to whether we charged the clients or whether we did it for free. And we also had to do six enrollment calls as practice. So that's the phone call where you're talking to the person, and then you're enrolling them into your program, and they give you scripts and everything. So it's all very helpful. So I did six of those calls, and five people wanted to work with me. That was wonderful. And what I did is I charged them a fee. I didn't do it for free. I didn't charge them full price. I wasn't ready to charge full price, but I offered them to work with me at a discounted price because I was just getting started. And they loved that idea. 00:20:44 Melissa: And what I loved about it and why I decided to do that is because I knew myself if I didn't invest anything in it and it was free, I wouldn't take it seriously. And if I had five people go through the program not taking it seriously, at the end of that, I might feel like I'm not a good coach. But if I had five people that had invested something in it, then I knew that they would put more effort in and they would see the results, and then I would feel confident to move out into the world and charge people full price because now I'm certified. 00:21:19 Sabine: I love it. I really applaud you for that because we all are just human beings, right? And on top of that, if somebody gets something for free, they don't value the program or you, in that case, as, "Oh, yeah," I mean, "She's just doing it for free." I totally are on the same page. So basically that whole what we think, bad situation really being let go of a job that you had for 24 years. And in that moment, it might seem horrible, but actually it was a blessing in disguise. 00:22:07 Melissa: Oh, I agree. You've just given me full body truth bumps because... yes, I agree. And it didn't take me long to be able to look back upon it and see that. And in that process, I learned that everything happened for us, et cetera, et cetera. So this whole entire process happened for me so that I could really land in my purpose and my passion and everything that came beforehand just better prepared me to be the coach that I am today.     00:22:39 Sabine: I saw on your website that you support a nonprofit organization called Girls Matter. Tell us more about that. 00:22:48 Melissa: I do. That's my passion project. So I saw a documentary with my Girl Guides, or in the US, they're called Girl Scouts. Probably in around 2013, 2014, called Girls Rising. And it was a wonderful documentary about the plight of girls in 3rd World nations not being allowed to go to school. And I watched that documentary with tears coming down my face as these girls were begging to go to school and simply being denied because they were female. And I'm in a room of females knowing that each and every one of them at different times has begged not to go to school. And I did that myself as a child. We take school for granted in our first world countries. And I just thought, at some point in my life, I need to change this and do something about it. And I didn't know how to get started. 00:23:41 Melissa: However, one day, again, in 2017, I was at a conference where somebody said we are all put on this Earth to never stop learning, to find our passion and be of service, and you don't have to know the how. You just have to know the why, and the how will happen. And all of that really resonated with me. And I realized I just have to get started with Girls Matter as well. And I contacted some friends who had a nonprofit and said, "How did you start this nonprofit?" And they said, "What are you doing?" And I told them, and they said, "We'll do it with you." So the whole premise of this is to keep girls in school and give girls access to school. And by doing that, we are stopping teenage marriages, and we are breaking the poverty cycle one girl, one family, one village at a time. There is a statistic that I saw in that first documentary that if India educated just 1% more girls, they would grow their GDP by $5 billion. 00:23:48 Sabine: Wow. 00:23:48 Melissa: So there's the answer. 00:24:50 Sabine: Yeah. 00:24:50 Melissa: Where is the answer? So simple. It's not necessarily easy because there's cultural things as well. But if we just educate the girls, we can bring entire countries out of poverty. 00:25:03 Sabine: That shows me again, that we don't have to wait for something big to happen or some big money stay behind a cause. No. We can start if we have that passion in our heart. And as you mentioned, people will come to you and say, "Hey, what can we do? We want to help." And what I love about  your organization is that 100% of the proceeds go to this nonprofit. So everybody is donating their time and resources even to that cause. 00:25:48 Melissa: I had just literally last week launched a Go Fund Me campaign for Girls Matter, for a very specific project, and that is to raise enough funds to provide the girls with menstrual pads so they can go to school every day because right now they don't have menstrual supplies. So they have to stay home for one week of every month and not attend school. 00:26:10 Sabine: Wow. 00:26:11 Melissa: And again, the universe gives back. So I was at a rotary meeting just a few weeks ago, talking about the girls, how we were supporting them, and this project for menstrual pads that I wanted to start. And lo and behold, the rotary organization in my local town is connected to one in Uganda, in the same country where the girls are that we're supporting, and they've just built a manufacturing plant to make these menstrual supplies. So now we just have to fundraise the funds in order to be able to support the girls. And for just $20, you can provide a girl with these reusable washable pads, enough of them for her four years of high school. 00:26:53 Sabine: Wow. That's amazing. Yeah. I will be giving those $20 to support one girl for four years, so sign me up. Melissa, thank you so much for being on this podcast. If people want to get in touch with you, how can they do that? 00:27:14 Melissa: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. And the easiest way is simply Melissa at yourguidedhealthjourney.com. 00:27:23 Sabine: And I will make sure to put it in the show notes. Once again, thank you so much, and I look forward to another conversation sometime in the future. 00:27:32 Melissa: Thank you very much for having me and for helping me share the work that I do in the world. I appreciate it. 00:27:40 Sabine: That was my interview, and if you enjoyed it, give us a five star review, leave a comment and share it with your friends. Thanks for listening. Until I see you again. Always remember, serve from the heart, follow your path, and live the life you imagine.  

Melissa Finkelstein is a New Jersey- based author, lawyer, and proud mom of three. Melissa has been writing and rhyming since she could form words. After graduating from Fordham Law, she began her career as a litigator in Manhattan. Because rhyming has always been her passion, she created a custom poetry business, Designer Rhymes so she could maintain that creative outlet. Once she had her son (7), and twin daughters (4), each with unique personalities and needs, the stars aligned for Melissa to publish her first children's book. Picky the Panda and the Tickly Tail is the first book in a series of three to come from author Melissa Finkelstein. Picky the Panda is a heartwarming story about a highly sensitive panda, which shares lessons of embracing sensory differences, practicing empathy, and recharging when overwhelmed. Picky the Panda was inspired by Melissa's daughter Skylar who has sensory processing disorder. Picky the Panda is now available on Amazon and in select children's bookstores. Enjoy!  In this episode Peter and Melissa discuss:   01:20 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing! 01:39 - Intro and welcome Melissa Finkelstein! 02:48 - So from Law to Children's books; tell us your story! 05:40 - Isn't it amazing what kids teach us. Are you finding that people are familiar with the topics in your book? 06:57 - What led to getting your daughter diagnosed? 09:30 - How old is she now and have all of your children read the book? 10:15 - Do you think that she's beginning to, (or will), benefit some from advances in awareness, research, etc? 11:18 - What's been the reaction and feedback to your book outside of the family? 12:00 - Is the book being used to explain to your daughter's classmates about Sensory Processing Disorder? 13:30 - On possessing supercharged senses 14:25 - How can people find more about you? Web: Everywhere fine books are sold Socials:  @melissafinkelsteinbooks on INSTA 14:45 - Thank you Melissa! 15:02 - Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Faster Than Normal is for YOU! We want to know what you'd like to hear! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We'd love to learn about, and from them. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse!  15:41 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits. — TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat: [00:00:34] Peter: Hey everyone, how's it going? My name is Peter Shankman and this is Faster Than Normal. I wanted to see if you expected me to say it, try to shake things up a little bit. Okay. It is a Thursday here in a very cold New York City. We have to say a fond farewell to fall, which lasted about. Two and a half days, and we are most certainly into winter. It's about 34 degrees outside right now, sunny, but cold as hell. So I am inside with a sleeping dog and with Melissa Finkelstein. She's actually in New Jersey, but we are talking today because Melissa is a New Jersey based author, lawyer, and proud mom of three. She's been writing and rhyming since she could form words. Her words, not mine. After graduating from Fordham Law, she began her career as a litigator in Manhattan. She created a custom poetry business called Designer Rhymes. So here she is as a litigator. Did you, I, I gotta ask you later, remind me to ask you if you actually rhymed during court cases. Cause that would've been awesome. Mm-hmm. . But why are we talking to her today? We're talking to her. She has a son who's seven and twin daughters who are four. They each have unique personality and needs. That's where she decided to publish her first book called her first Children's book called Picky the Panda and the Tickly Tale. It's a first book in a series of three and Picky The Panda is a heartwarming story about a highly sensitive panda who shares lessons of embracing sensory diff differences, practicing empathy and recharging when overwhelmed, and I think we can all relate to that Picky The Panda- on Amazon and everywhere you get children's books. Welcome Melissa. Good to have you.  [00:02:15] Melissa: Good morning. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for that intro [00:02:18] Peter: And just in case you ever think that nothing good comes out of divorce. Melissa came to me through my ex, let me get this right, my ex sister-in-law.  [00:02:32] Melissa: That's right.  [00:02:33] Peter: My ex-step sister-in-law. Right. [00:02:34] Melissa: I think you're stuck with her. I think she's just your sister-in-law still.  [00:02:37] Peter: Yeah. My sister-in-law, she reached out to me and said, you know, hey, have a guest for you. I'm like, I didn't even know you knew I had a podcast. So good to know . Anyway, it is great to meet you, Melissa. Thank you for taking the time. So from law to children's books, tell us your story!  [00:02:52] Melissa: Sure. So I've always been a writer and a rhymer, um, as I said, and that's really been my passion and that's kinda how I wound up in law. Um, I thought, you know, I'm really good at writing. I'm good at. Reading and problem solving. My skill sets seem to fit. I'm gonna go be a lawyer. It sounds pretty fancy and you know, I can have all this success and, um, I did have some fun and, you know, some fulfillment doing it, but I really missed like the joy and the whimsy of my childhood, to be honest. Um, so I toyed with the idea. Maybe I would be a preschool teacher. I know that couldn't be more opposite from being a litigator in Manhattan, but I really just wanted to use my creativity. My fun, you know, happy go lucky personality and doing like corporate insecurities litigation really didn't bring me that kind of joy. Um, as you might expect. And, you know, my life was all about disputes and I, I'm all about making peace. I'm like, what am I doing? Why am I fighting for a living? So this, this isn't bringing me joy anymore. Um, so all along, as you mentioned, while I was litigating, I had my little side gig, which just really was. You know, a passion project and bringing me happiness and it was creating custom poems for people for, you know, milestone occasions and that kind of thing. And I loved making others happy through my words. And so once I had my kids, I thought, you know, this is perfect. They're all so different. You know, they're, they learned so much from children's books and I think this would be a great outlet for me to use my words and. You know, I, I'm starting a series of three books, each of which are inspired by my three kids. So they're like my little muses at this point. Um, and in doing so, I'm focusing on what, you know, one of their biggest personality, um, pieces or struggles or challenges are to, you know, try to reach children like them. And in doing so, I wrote and published my first book, Picky The Panda and the Tickly Tale as you mentioned. And it is inspired by my little girl, Skyler, who has sensory processing disorder. And I didn't realize that by sharing her story, um, you know, I actually have become kind of a sensory processing disorder advocate and someone who is working. My butt off at this point to bring awareness to this condition and to what children like Skyler and um, like so many of your listeners might be experiencing. And that has been one of the most beautiful things to come from pivoting into my role as a children's book author.  [00:05:22] Peter: It's interesting because, you know, I mean, first of all, I had some nursery school teachers who definitely could have been litigators, but, but that's neither here nor there. Um, , it's interesting, you know, you made that switch. Kids do that. They, they, they have this uncanny ability to take whatever you think is your thing and just completely flip it on its head. Um, the concept of sensory processing disorder much like ADD, a ADHD executive function disorder. Not a lot is known. And so bringing, I, I'm assuming one of the reasons you wrote the book was to bring awareness to sensory process. Absolut, what are you finding, um, when you tell people about it, what percentage would you say understand, oh yeah, of course. I've heard of that. Or, or, you know, is it, I mean, are you, are you, is it a constant battle with the teachers? Is it, how, how, how are you finding that to be? [00:06:14] Melissa: It's becoming a much more wide spread. Um, you know, thing that people are aware of right now, but I think really the book shares this Panda's experience as being a highly sensitive, um, individual and what she goes through. And I think people are really relating to her experience more than they may have known or been aware of a diagnosis or a condition, um, called sensory processing disorder. So that's really been beneficial to me. Um, so yeah, I would say. I, I don't know. It's a smaller percentage than I would like for people to be aware of because it is a very real condition and you know, a very intense experience for those who go through it.  [00:06:57] Peter: How did you discover that your, how did you get your d daughter diagnosed? What was, what was sort of the key takeaways that, that made you say, Hey, we should look into this?  [00:07:06] Melissa: So she was in, so she's a twin. I'll start with that. So, um, I was constantly seeing her right next to her twin sister, and, you know, all kids are different obviously. So she was having a very different experience as a baby, a child than her twin sister was. So I think that helped make it more apparent to me that she was going through something and she was in an obvious discomfort and, um, just kind of unsettled a lot of the time. And, you know, I knew there wasn't anything medical going on with her because she, she was doing okay medically, we were bringing her to the pediatrician. Everything was fine, but I could just tell that she was uncomfortable. And my son at the time was in occupational therapy for a different issue that was going on. Um, and so I brought Skylar when she was one years old to this pediatric occupational therapist. Who I've come to know and trust and had her assessor and right away she said, this is something sensory going on. And to be honest, I was a doubter at first. Um, I didn't really know very much about sensory processing disorder or sensory sensitivity or any of that. And, um, I can tell you later that I've come to realize that I actually have a lot of sensory challenges myself, which I've learned through my daughter. So anyway, this pediatric, uh, occupational therapist evaluated her and right away she knew it was something sensory. Um, I watched the evaluation and I was like, you know, I don't know. I'm not really seeing it because she was, um, exposing to her to certain sensory, tactile, um, you know, things like sand and foam and, you know, different manipulatives that she could touch, and I thought she was fine. I'm like, you know, I see her getting her hands messy. But all along there were these little cues that were going on that she was able to pick up on. So just for one example, she showed me that while Skylar was, you know, digging into these Orbis, which are these like liquidy beads that children can play with, she was actually salivating and had like, Drool coming out of her mouth while she was doing it because her sensory system was just so overloaded, um, that while she was willing to do it, her system actually couldn't handle it. So that's just one example of how, you know, we came to be aware of it and then, you know, all the cues and clues just sort of lined up after that. And occupational therapy has been one of our greatest tools for her so far,  [00:09:22] Peter: I'm sure. How old is she now?  [00:09:24] Melissa: She's almost five. Okay.  [00:09:26] Peter: And has she, has she. Do you read the book to her? [00:09:30] Melissa: Yes. Yes. I, all my children have read the book and they love it. And my other two children wanna know when theirs are coming out and they are in the works. ,  [00:09:39] Peter: One of the things that I've discovered, um, uh, about sort of, ADD & ADHD when you're talking to kids about it, and so I'm assuming the same thing is, is truly is, it's all about how it's framed When I was growing. Um, you know, a ADD didn't exist. What existed was sit down, you disrupt in the class disease. And, and so I, kids our age, um, if they eventually got diagnosed had also had to overcome the stigma of 30, 40 years of being told they're broken. are you seeing with kids your daughter's age because of advances in research? Advances in, uh, awareness? They're not going through the whole concept of you're broken, they're not gonna have to heal from that. They can start looking at what they have as, you know, a difference as opposed to being broken.  [00:10:36] Melissa: Yeah, I really hope that's the case, and I agree with what you said. Um, and one of the purposes of this book is to frame heighten sensitivity or. Sensory challenges as a gift. And I know that that's something that you like to speak about, um, in terms of adhd and I absolutely agree with that. Um, so in terms of heightened sensitivity, you know, yes, it can present struggles and challenges, but it can also be your greatest gift. It can be, you know, the way you use your imagination and can be creative the way you are compassionate and empathetic and can show love. So it can really be a strength. And that's one of the things that I'm hoping to share with children who may feel like Skylar, um, as term in terms of their sensitivity,  [00:11:18] Peter: What's been the reaction or the, what's been the feedback to the book or the reaction to the book, um, outside of your family?  [00:11:25] Melissa: Oh, it's been wonderful. I've been hearing from so many families saying, you know, we have a little picky at home. Um, you know, my daughter like, wants to read it every day. She feels like Pickalina so it, that's been the best part of this. When I set out to become an author, I just wanted to use my words to make children and families happy and, you know, provide them with a good bedtime story. I actually didn't have these higher goals of, you know, bringing such awareness. and acceptance to children with differences, but like that has become the greatest gift. And the thing that I'm most proud of and most excited about in my journey so far. [00:12:01] Peter: Is the book being used, um, as sort of a way to explain to your daughter's, classmates about the different, because I imagine that much like ad although ADHD manifests in different ways, I imagine that sensory processing disorder must manifest itself in some ways that would make the kids go, what the heck's that all about? [00:12:20] Melissa: Absolutely. So there's a page in the book where Picky the Panda um, has become so overwhelmed that she's feeling dysregulated and she's hiding under the table in her classroom, and she is rocking and crying because she is so overwhelmed and her body feels such big feelings. And the students. Who are her animal friends gather around her and they yell Picky. It's ok because you know, they're just trying to be kind and they're like, come outta the table, everything's great. But for her, everything's not great at that moment. So that, you know, that doesn't work for Picky and it takes different strategies to get her to be able to recharge and calm her body down. So I think, you know, empathy and understanding and realizing that we are all different is definitely one of the biggest messages. So, yes, to make children, um, and classmates who encounter kids like Skyler or who have other differences to be accepting and empathetic.  [00:13:12] Peter: I like the concept of supercharged senses in the book because, you know, adhd, I consider it a superpower and I try to frame it as a superpower. So the concept of supercharged senses sort of seems very similar in the respect that you just have to, you know, if, if when I talk about adhd, I talk about the fact that. You know, most people are given Honda Accords for brains and we're given Lamborghini's, and so that's great, but you have to learn how to drive it, or you're gonna crash into a tree. You know, anyone could drive a Honda. You need training to drive a Lamborghini. And so I'm assuming it's the same premise with supercharged senses. I really love that term.  [00:13:46] Melissa: Yeah, thank you. And absolutely, I agree with that. Something we have to learn to adapt to and adjust to. But like I said, it, and like you always say, um, it can really be seen as one of our biggest gifts. Very cool. So my daughter can, she's, you know, the first one to smell something stinky or she can see something a mile away. She can hear that train coming, you know, 10 stops away. So, you know, she really does have supercharged senses, but it also can lead her to feel very overwhelmed and heightened at certain times. [00:14:15] Peter: Very cool. How can, so I'm assuming, yeah, it's available on Amazon, it's available everywhere. Um, how can people connect with you? Are you on Instagram? Are you on Facebook?  [00:14:24] Melissa: Yes. So I am on Instagram at Melissa Finkelstein books. Um, and that is a great place to follow me. I'll have information about Picky the Panda um, sensory processing awareness and about my forthcoming books, um, the next of which will be out in early 2023.  [00:14:42] Peter: Very, very cool. Melissa, thank you so much for taking time to be on Fast Than Normal today. I really, really appreciate it.  [00:14:47] Melissa: Thank you so much. It's been wonderful.  [00:14:49] Peter: Awesome guys. Check out the book. It is a lot of fun. Picky, I love, I love, I love the title Picky, the Panda and the Tickly Tale, talking about sensory processing disorder as supercharged senses. I love it. We back next week with another interview. This is Faster Than Normal. God, talk.. I mean fast- talk about fast, right? The entire year it's, it's almost Thanksgiving here next week in New York, it's gonna be Thanksgiving and I have absolutely no idea how that happened. And it's Christmas and it's New Year's and yeah, it's essentially summer already next year. So I dunno how we got there. But we will see you next week with another interview. Thank you so much for listening. Remember that neurodiversity is a gift, not a curse. And we are all on this train together. Talk to you guys soon. Stay tuned. Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

There isn't a mom around that would say that sugar is good for you and while it would be ideal to say no more sugar and actually stick to it, it's much easier said than done. In this episode of the Moms Without Capes Podcast, I'm talking with holistic health and life coach Melissa Rohlfs all about her decision to break free from the sugar addiction that so many of us find ourselves trapped in. Join therapist, coach, and mom Onnie Michalsky as she uncovers what the journey to consuming less sugar actually looks like. To join the Moms Without Capes Facebook community, visit www.facebook.com/groups/mwcapes I invite you to schedule a discovery call with me to talk more about hanging up your Super-Mom cape and loving yourself and the life you are living. www.momswithoutcapes.com/loveyourself To grab my guide, Building Strong Habits go to www.momswithoutcapes.com/strong-habits Visit my website www.momswithoutcapes.com to learn more! To learn more about Melissa Rohlfs, go to www.Free2bcoaching.com or follow her on social: Facebook www.facebook.com/melissarohlfscoach Instagram www.instagram.com/free2b_coaching/ Be sure to check out Melissa's podcast, Mondays with Melissa Thank you so much for tuning in and listening today. I'd love to hear what you thought of this episode and what ideas you may have for future episodes of the Moms Without Capes podcast! Email me at onnie@momswithoutcapes.com If you liked this episode, please show some love by leaving me a 5-Star review, subscribing, and sharing it with a fellow mom! DISCLAIMER: Just because I'm a therapist, I'm not your therapist nor am I doing therapy in this podcast episode. Just saying. So enjoy Moms Without Capes for what it is- educational, entertaining, and a way to get my message out into the world!

How to turn your passion for visiting yard sales and thrift stores into a profitable side hustle. - FREE WORKSHOPWhat's up, guys? Today, we have the honor of introducing and interviewing Adam Smith, who has just recently within the last year jumped into flipping, but he's made some, sweet flips and he's made some awesome progress towards this reselling a side hustle, or profession, whatever you want to call it. So we're very honored, very glad to have Adam to the show. Adam, welcome. Thank you so much for jumping on here.Adam: Oh, thank you, Rob and Melissa. It's great to be [00:01:00] here.Melissa: Awesome. Thanks so much for being here. So tell us a little bit about yourself. Give us a little background of you.Adam: Well, sure. I'm 41 years old. I have two young children, and two and four months, and I work a boring corporate job.And about a year ago, I, got into flipping, with the help of my mother who's been selling on eBay for years and years as a hobby and having fun. And she came and visited, for the holidays and we've said, well, let's sell some of this stuff around the house. And that's how I kinda got going, just selling stuff around the house.And, I had so much fun with it that I said, well, I'm going to start going to the thrift store. And I started selling stuff from the thrift store. And then, you know, I like to research stuff and I started a, what the heck is this reselling stuff? What the heck is flipping? And then that's how I found you guys and your videos on YouTube.And then that's really where it [00:02:00] launched, there. You know, a couple months after I started with my mom, I had found you guys. And I said, wow, we can really, I can really make some extra money at this. And this is really super fun. So that's probably more than you wanted in introducing myself, but...Rob: No, that was great. That's exactly what we want. We want your backstory, what you're doing, kind of how you found this career, this side hustle, whatever it is for everybody. So no, that's great. And you said one thing that throws a wrench into anybody's flipping business. You have young kids, you have a full-time job and you're still out there and you're doing amazing at flipping.So, yeah, that's awesome. Very, very exciting that, that is part of your journey and that's where you're at right now. So, yeah. Awesome. Awesome.Melissa: The kids take a lot of time. We know, very well, how much they take from your time, and we love it obviously, but it there's a lot less time left in the day to do anything else. So.Rob: The other thing I liked about what you said is you started from the stuff that's in your house. And a lot of people they find out about flipping and they think they have to go out and invest all this money, and then they have to have [00:03:00] all this inventory that they're not sure if it's going to sell, but you started with stuff that you had. That's kind of the way we teach people as well, stuff that you have sitting around the house, that you're not using anymore and start selling it, learn how to do the flipping and then you can actually expand and get bigger and go buy stuff that, you know, that's going to sell. So, yeah. That's awesome that that's how you started, for sure.Adam: Yeah, like I...Melissa: Go ahead. Sorry.Adam: Yeah, just having, you know, when I started, we had one, our first child, who was about two. And so I had quite a bit of extra time still, compared to what I have now. Now we have a four-month-old baby around the house, so it's really put a crunch on the amount of time, free time that I have to go out, you know, yard saling or thrifting, or just, you know, searching on Facebook marketplace for items. But I'll say it, it's still, I think the max I put in on a weekly basis would be 10, you know, 15 hours at the most. And I'm able to squeeze that in, you [00:04:00] know, after everyone's in bed, I'll, you know, do some listing of items or packaging up of items and stuff at night.So I, and I still get to bed at a reasonable hour. And then of course the kids have me up at 5:00 or 6:00 AM or something. So yeah, I think my sales in the first month, half of the year, we're really, really strong before baby came in June. And then it really tanked from June, July, and August. I really didn't have a lot of time cause baby was so young.But now that we've kind of settled into a routine and I can have that time at night and a little bit in the early morning to do flipping stuff, I'm right back to where I was in the beginning part of the year.Melissa: Awesome. So when you, you're saying around 10 to 15 hours, when you're on your kind of normal schedule, so what is that usually average a month when you're on the normal schedule?Rob: Income wise, that, that brings up a great point because a lot of people want to know if I can throw an extra 5 hours, 10 hours at this business, what can I expect? And you're like you said, you're [00:05:00] a new flipper within the last 12 months you've been actually doing this. So, kind of give us some numbers, you know, maybe averages, that you've been able to do on the selling side of it.Adam: Yeah, my average sales per month are around I think between $5,000 and $7,000 a month, I would say.Rob: That's awesome. I love it.Adam: Some months are better than like I said, June, July, August was a little, a little slow just because I didn't have a lot of time to list and, and stay on top of it. But I have, I have no doubt that if I, if I went full time at this, I could completely replace my corporate income and more. So like, this is my first year.I think I will end up around $70,000 to $80,000 in total sales and that's with just starting slow too. Cause I didn't find you guys until January or February of this year and that's when things really took off.Rob: Dude, you're you're, you're blowing my mind and I have so many questions [00:06:00] right now about just this $5,000 to $7,000 a month. The next question is kind of what's your niche? What, how are you getting to that's a substantial amount of money for a side hustle. What exactly are you doing? Like, what is your niche that you're doing to get to move the mountain on that? To make that money?Adam: I would say the two categories I do the most are appliances, you know, cooking cooktops, ranges, and then Sleep Number beds is probably the, the second category where I do really, really well. And what I've kind of moved into now, especially after, baby came in June is it's been harder to move larger items like ranges and stuff like that. So I started parting out cooktops and ranges and stuff that, cause it's so much easier to ship, you know, a small switch or a burner, and the money, the return is really good on those. Cause you can [00:07:00] often pick up a little bit older appliances that all the components still work, but you know, they're not the newest model or whatever, all the switches and valves and stuff like that still work on them.And I just part them out in the garage at night and then I list all those items and I sell them for a really good profit, you know, so I can take a range that I pick up for free or for less than a hundred dollars and, you know, flip it and make $500 to a thousand dollars on the parts off that range. So that's where I'm really kind of niching down into right now is, is, is the parting out appliances.Melissa: That's funny. We actually just went to dinner with one of our other course members the other day, and she brought up a point. She had a cooktop and it was or a range, I don't know if it... was it a range? She got it and it was missing one knob. She's like, it's fine. I'll go. I'll just purchase the knob. And she went to go purchase the knob and it was $300.Rob: $300.Melissa: And I think that's what she paid for the whole thing. And she's like, all right, well now, but then she ended up selling the [00:08:00] other three knobs for $300 or $400 each. So she was like, she just parted it out. It's like that. There you go.Rob: And I want to call attention to this. This is a great point. Some of you guys that do know Melissa and I, we do large items and it sounds like Adam does some larger items too, but he's also found a niche where he can part out items, sell smaller items and still make great, great money at it. So, yeah, that that's really, really an awesome point.Melissa: Sky's the limit.Rob: It is. You do not have to do super large items. And that's the big thing Melissa and I found with what we do, it's less time than selling tons and tons of small items. But if you're getting into these smaller items that have a higher profits on them, because...Melissa: Your knob is worth $300.Rob: Exactly. Adam's probably talking about appliances there, you know, maybe anywhere from 5 to 10 years old and people have one thing goes bad on it and Adam's got the replacement for it for a good price underneath what it would be for a retail price, if they had to go and order it from Whirlpool.Melissa: And half the time you can't find them anymore because they're older.Rob: Exactly. Exactly. So that's a great, great piece of advice, Adam. I love that, that you're actually thinking [00:09:00] outside the box and you're making some great money on smaller items, but higher profit, smaller items. So that's awesome. Great tip.Adam: Yeah, it's kind of enabled me to, to also limit the amount of time you spend listing and cleaning up some of those older items. And so now with the appliances, if I'm going to sell it and flip the larger cooktop or a full range, I pretty much will, I want to make sure they're in good condition when I buy them. So I still go for that, whatever profit I want to make, you know, 10 times profit is kind of what I look for, based on your advice.But if it's going to take me five or six hours to clean up that older thing, it's, it's just, doesn't become worth it. So I'll just part it out, it's easier to just tear it down. I can do that in an hour. I can tear down range an hour and, you know, to spend less time on it. I don't know if that makes sense.Rob: It does. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Categorize it and take it that tear down. There's only so many pieces to these, these appliances that you're working with. You, you know, you have wires, you have boards, you [00:10:00] have knobs. So there's only so many pieces that are really worth the money to flip. And it's another point to it that you didn't even say you, once you do it, you tear it down.You can get rid of the big components. You're not even storing that stuff. You take it to the scrap yard. You throw it away, whatever you do. So it is a lot easier in some aspects to do that. So, yeah. That's awesome. I love how your brain's thinking and working this whole, this whole process out. Cause you're doing yeah, you're doing amazing. So I'm super excited.Melissa: That's funny.Adam: That's another fortunate thing is my local community has a waste diversion center where I can recycle all the other components for free. I just dropped them off, you know, all the big metal components. So that's, that's worked out really well.Rob: I love it. I love it. That is that's amazing.Melissa: So if you have to reflect all the way back for this last year, I think it's awesome that you've only been at it for a year. What would you say are a couple of things that have contributed to your finding success, maybe like habits?Rob: Great question.Adam: That's a good question. I think [00:11:00] just kind of the discipline of, of even though when you're tired and, and, and don't want to go out to the garage and tear down a range or whatever, just making sure I, you know, you set goals of, I want to list one item per day. That's one thing the group has been really helpful with holding me accountable. We have a lot of challenges in the group, you know, we have the 30-day listing challenge, so that sticks in my head. I'm like, well, I got it. I don't want it, but okay. I gotta go out and do that cause I want to be able to post in the group that I made my listing for the day. Staying positive too, because there are challenges that have come up this year where, you know, for example, I had someone return a thousand dollar cooktop.They returned a different one than I had sent them. And, you know, they had, you know, it was a big scam. They were trying to, you know, it was fraudulent of course. And that was really stressful because it was, you know, I had paid the shipping. I had had to pay for them to ship it back to me cause I, [00:12:00] and so there was a lot of money on the line.So working through that, staying positive, knowing that everything can be kind of figured out and like it'll work out, in the right way in the end. That's not really a habit though. You can take that part out.Rob: But it's good. No, no, no, I like that. That's good. That's honest. We're working through a return right now, and that's one of the things that people, it does happen. There's bad parts to business. There are, there are bad parts that you do not want to deal with. And we're doing the same thing right now and you have to figure out the best way to do it, the best way to do it ,the best way to work it. And then you learn from every single situation.So even that return that you did, I guarantee you learn some stuff out of that return that you're not going to do the next time around. You're going to do it differently. So sometimes, I mean, we call it. It's not our coined phrase, but stupid tax to where you maybe acted quick out of something or you did something you learn from that, and I do the same thing every time I have something like this happens and you learn for the next [00:13:00] situation, how to handle it better.Melissa: To know is that those things they don't happen very often. Unfortunately, that's what keeps people from doing a reselling side hustle, because they'll think, oh, I don't want you know, to lose money on returns, but like that's the first return we've had in a year and a half.Rob: Yeah.Melissa: You're going to have that part of business in any business you do.Rob: And I'm sure you're the same way as a $1,000 cooktop, if you're making $5,000 $7,000 a month, you're not dealing with these all the time.Same with us. We've made probably $150,000 and ours was the same thing. A thousand dollars. A $1,300 that we're dealing with. And we'll come out okay with ours because I'll have insurance claim on it because it was damaged. But at the same time, it's just a little bit of red tape that you have to go through.So, I think that's great advice for people listening. This is not all hunky-dory. You still will have to work in there's some, some situations that will come up. It's how you shine through those situations and how you learn from them.Adam: Yes. Yeah. I would agree with that. That maybe the discipline or the habit there is just treating each situation as a, as a learning. You know, really, [00:14:00] since I'm in my first year, It's really, I've done a lot of stuff like that, where I'm going to just going to try this because I want to learn what it's like. You know, I want to learn how to do this. I obviously, I didn't try to do a return or a, a scam, but,Rob: You learn how to handle it though. You learned that it is, that stuff happens. Not that often. Trust me. I've never had,Melissa: I've never heard that with that big of a cooktop.Rob: No.Adam: It was a pretty gutsy move by them to return a completely different, it was the same model. Thankfully, I, I had taken pictures of the serial number and those were in the posting and, you know, we had to go, I had to go through the whole thing of filing a police report and all of that.And eBay did refund me. I did, I do think the buyer did probably, he got refunded automatically, you know, when, when he returned the thing. So, I don't know if he got flagged in the eBay system or not, and taken out, but they did refund me as well after I filed the police report and gave them the evidence. It all worked out in the end, you know, it was, you know.Rob: And that's, [00:15:00] that's a good lesson. It's a good lesson. You might've done a couple of things different than you did, but you had the proof that it was a different cooktop that he returned. You filed a police report, you got to the end of it. And you got your money back on the situation, on the, on the sale. Trust me, it's a headache, but everything is a learning experience. So like I said, you probably would do a couple things different or you probably know next time it happens.Melissa: But he had the pictures that was a big part of it.Rob: Exactly, it's huge to be able to have that. So, no, I, I kudos to you. I think that's awesome.And you're in your first year. A lot of people will roll over when something like this happens and go, oh, I'm outta here. I'm not flipping anymore. I can't do it when this is the result. And, it doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen sometimes. You have to be able to roll with the punches.You have to learn from it and you have to move forward. So, that's awesome that that's, that's your mindset and that's where you're at right now. I, yeah, I applaud you for sure.Adam: Yeah. I did feel that way that week, you know, I had several returns that we could, another damaged cooktop and it was, it was pretty low point and it was thanks to the group too, you know, Stacy,I don't know if I can [00:16:00] say her name on this public... Stacy really helped me through both of those events. And if it weren't for the group, I think, you know, I really would have considered like, maybe this isn't for me, but yeah, she really supported me a lot of time on Facebook messenger. Like, this is how you do that.This is, you know, this is what you should do, a lot of great advice. So, I'm Immensely grateful for not only Stacy but the whole group too on getting through stuff like that.Rob: Good, andMelissa: something to say about having a like mind, like just encouraging people to do it at the same time. So when you do something like that, or have something like that happen, then you do have people alongside of you and you can figure it out.Rob: And some of you guys not know the group he's talking about. We actually have Flipper University. We have a core members, a members group Flipping For Profit, that everybody who goes through our university, we have a free members only group, and that's what he's talking about. We have close to a thousand people in there. Like-minded people that do exactly this, [00:17:00] they're flippers. So it's really, really cool just to be able to interact and I'm sure there's other groups out there like this, guys. Well, ours, isn't the only one, but get involved in one, if you can. That's, that's one of those things is being around like-minded people who can help you. You know, we have all different stages in our group, people that are just starting, and then professional flippers, like us, that are doing it full time. So you have great advice from everybody, which is awesome.Melissa: Yeah, so let us know what is one of your more memorable flips aside from maybe that cooktop?Adam: Let me see. More memorable flips. I think you guys have asked me this question before, too. I don't know that this is a great one for me, because everything seems so boring. You know, it's all like,Rob: Yeah, maybe a high profit, one of your highest profit flips. That, I mean, that's what sticks out to me when I think about stuff.Adam: Well, I think you guys both know about this one, but, one of, one of a more recent one that was really fun is I picked up a cooktop for a hundred dollars on a [00:18:00] Sunday afternoon. And it was in great shape, hardly had any use. I, I brought it home, wiped it down, took my 12 photos, posted it on eBay. It sold the next morning for $1,300. I shipped it out like two days later. So like turning around $1,200. Well, it wasn't all $1,200 profit, but turning that around, within like a couple of days, it was pretty amazing. That was one of my fastest flips I've ever seen.Rob: I love it. That is a great one. And it is memorable that when you make those flips, yeah. You're, you're proud of yourself. I mean, you found a good deal you got it on, you gave somebody else a really good deal for the cooktop. So, no, that's awesome. I love it. And yeah, cooktops, are they're a lot of fun you, if you know what you're doing, and you find those right cooktops to flip, you can make some serious, serious money as Adam's showing us right now, for sure.Melissa: If you had to have, like, if you wanted to give a tip or two, like for somebody just getting started in this, like what would be like one thing that you maybe wish you would've known when you first started that like, [00:19:00] okay that you would give to somebody?Adam: A good tip, I think it just, you know, find the reseller community online, whether that be Flipper University and the group that we're in or whatever it is. There's so many resources out there available for free to get you going. That would be my first bit of advice, beyond the standard of, you know, start with stuff that's in your house and that will help you learn the process of eBay or whatever platform you're using to sell on. And it's low, really low risk. And then, but finding that online community of support. It is priceless. It's gonna, they're going to help you through everything from listing to shipping, to dealing with difficult customers or difficult returns and, all of that stuff. So, that would be my, if someone's serious about it and really wants to do it, it's find the community.Melissa: Awesome.Rob: That is great advice because it is, it's not, you're not doing this alone. And you've learned that. When you have people around you who are there to [00:20:00] build you up, when you're having that bad day of, hey I had a return or even a bad week of I had a couple returns and I'm trying to figure out what's the best, what's the next step in these returns, you have those people around you that are building you up and helping you stay focused and work through these situations. So you get past them, you get through them and then you just can keep going on. So a community is a huge thing and that's really cool that you've seen that.Because it does, it helps a ton in this business, if you have the like-minded people around you. For sure. So a great, great tip. Great advice for sure.Melissa: I'm not sure if we asked this though, before, what are your major platforms that you're selling on?Adam: Pretty much, I would say 90% on eBay. I do sell a little locally off of Facebook Marketplace so or OfferUp, and that's mostly items I don't want to ship, or it's just easier to flip locally. So yeah, 90, 90%, 95% on eBay.Melissa: Yeah. That's about ours, same.Rob: Awesome, same as us. Yeah. eBay's our main go just because of the people that it reaches, that's it. And then local. So awesome. Well, [00:21:00] Adam, thank you so much for jumping on here and giving us all this great information. You are, you know, you are, you're a year into it, but you have so much wisdom and knowledge in that year.I'm super excited to watch your, your journey unfold, and all the flips that you're gonna make in the next year. So. Congratulations. Thank you so much for, just giving, everybody, some great, great tips and some great advice on how to, how to further their reselling business. So thank you, thank you.Melissa: Thank you.Adam: Thanks Rob and Melissa. It was great to be on. Thanks for all you've done for me too.Rob: Of course, of course. All right. Have a great day, Adam. Thank you so much.Yup. Thanks guys. Bye.

Melissa Libby, owner of Melissa Libby & Associates (MLA), started her career in hospitality. Today, her friends call her the Restaurant Whisperer In this interview, Melissa talks about the challenges restaurants have faced in the face of Covid-19, the changes yet to come, and the lessons she has learned in her 27 years of restaurant marketing. In recent months, MLA has helped its clients pivot to curbside delivery, takeout, and/or to serving different retail markets. Some of the adaptations? Restaurants have:  Started low-overhead ghost kitchens/pop-ups that provide different menus from what is available in brick-and-mortar restaurants Converted parking lots into patios for outdoor dining Elevated curbside packaging and pickup to elegant “experiences.”  Started selling off their wine cellars, offering some great wines at good prices.  Melissa advises, to further support your local restaurant, “Tip well.”. Because restaurants typically do not have a lot of money, they value public and community relations over traditional advertising. As restaurants open back up, which clients are most likely to return for dining “in”? Turns out demographics provide no clue. Dining in is the more profitable option . . . but it's tough to figure out who to target with the “come back in” messages. Each individual will have his or her own level of comfort and timing for when it “feels safe.” Melissa notes that “online ordering technology is glitchy.” She has seen some improvement already and thinks it will quickly evolve to something “way better, very quickly.” Third party delivery services take a significant cut of the food delivered. So, she says, order from the restaurant, and pick it up yourself.  Melissa lauds the Georgia Restaurant Association for lobbying to get the necessary changes made to help Georgia's restaurants survive. When Melissa talks about the early days of her business, she says that she did not plan for success. She did not ask “What do I do if I get more clients than I can handle,” she asked, “What am I going to do if I fail?” She feels she would have done better to plan for success and to prepare for success. Melissa used a siloed PR business staffing model until she figured out that did not work for her. She then divided her staff up by what they liked to do best and where they excelled. This made her staff happier, and her organization more resilient. Now, when an employee leaves the agency, the body of knowledge connected to a client remains intact because everyone in the agency has been working with that client.  Melissa can be reached on her agency's website at: ThinkMLA.com. Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined today by Melissa Libby. Melissa is the owner of Melissa Libby & Associates based in Atlanta, Georgia. Welcome to the podcast, Melissa. MELISSA: Thank you, Rob. ROB: It's fantastic to have you here. Why don't you start off by telling us about MLA and MLA's superpowers?  MELISSA: All right. MLA is 27 years old, based in Atlanta. Our superpower is restaurant marketing. My friends call me the Restaurant Whisperer. [laughs] That's what we do. We help restaurants get business and keep business. ROB: It's quite a time to be thinking about restaurant business, because here we are in – what month is it? August, I think? I have to check my calendar – of 2020. We are still in various stages of COVID-19 lockdown. So, in this time, in August 2020, what are you seeing/doing/hearing when it comes to restaurant marketing? MELISSA: Well, it's a strange new world, that's for sure. It's changed over the past few months of what we've been doing, and it continues to change as things happen. But it all comes down to getting the message out to the people who want to support a restaurant, want to dine at a restaurant, or want to have takeout. We've helped our clients pivot to curbside or takeout or a whole different retail market. Whatever they need to do to stay in business and stay afloat, we help them with that and help them get the word out to people. And then as Georgia reopened and people were able to dine in at a restaurant, we started getting the word out about that. What's interesting from a marketing perspective, and something that I hadn't really thought about – you can't pick a demographic and say, “Okay, this demographic feels comfortable walking in and dining in a restaurant and this one doesn't, so we have to focus on this.” You can't say, “Older people don't want to dine in a restaurant, so let's market to the younger people” because that's just not the case. What I've found is that there are people in every demographic that feel comfortable dining in and in every demographic that don't. It's an extremely personal decision, so it's been really, really hard to figure out who those people are and how we get to them. Because with the dine-in, that is going to be the more profitable avenue for the restaurant. There's been a lot of that going on. A lot of messaging, a lot of safety messaging to make people feel comfortable, a lot of internal messaging to the staff, a lot of website writing, a lot of social media message crafting. It's just been really, really challenging. ROB: It's interesting that you mention the dine-in diner as being more profitable for the restaurant, because I am a big fan of restaurants. I am a big fan of good restaurants. I am a big fan of many of the restaurants that show up on your website. Even from early on in COVID – I think I felt like I was trying to do them a solid by doing pickup, but even continuing to do so, because I am one of those folks who's probably not going to dine in at a restaurant. But what can I do as a pickup order diner to help with the profitability of a restaurant versus maybe what someone dining in and sitting down is doing for them to make them a better customer? MELISSA: Definitely picking up instead of ordering through a third party delivery service is certainly a help to the restaurant because the third party delivery services take a pretty significant cut of the price. So, if you can go and pick it up, that's what you want to do. If you don't want to dine in, do that. Now in Georgia, they're about to let restaurants sell alcohol, so if you can order your beer or your wine – a lot of restaurants have cocktail kits – anything like that helps them. I have several clients that are selling their wine, basically, their wine cellar. And these are amazing wines that you can get at a really great price. So, do that, tip well. That's what you can do to help. I feel like with dine-in, they get that alcohol order that they're not going to usually get with the takeout, and they also obviously have the service staff who receive tips, the people that wait on you. So that's what you can do to help. And don't get me wrong; all of my clients are very, very grateful for the people that are coming, even if they're not coming to dine in. They're grateful for them. So please keep it up. Another thing – and I should've mentioned this – everyone is doing outdoor seating now. So that might be your gateway one day when you're ready to dining back in, to go sit on a patio somewhere. People are turning their parking lots into patios. They're doing anything they can to get some patio seating, and people are loving it, even as hot as it is here.  ROB: I know some places have given a temporary reprieve on allowing restaurants to sell alcohol and also in terms of compromising what is allowed for outdoor seating. Are the alcohol sales becoming something more permanent that is being permitted for pickup? MELISSA: No, it's COVID specific. It would be great if they would make it permanent, and I guess it's a possibility, but that has not been discussed. ROB: It seems like it would take perhaps – and I don't know this industry as well from the side that you see it from – it seems like it would take a more potent restaurant lobby than maybe has formed up to now. Or is there a stronger restaurant lobby that is forming in recent years to help represent – because independent restaurants just don't have the same leverage that let's say a large chain has. MELISSA: Yeah. The Georgia Restaurant Association is absolutely amazing, and they are our lobbying group. I don't know if you recall that we got the Sunday Brunch Bill passed. It used to be you couldn't drink alcohol until 12:30 on Sunday, and now I think it's 10:30 or 11:00 or something. That took like 3 years or more. It's ridiculous. It takes forever to get these things through. But the Georgia Restaurant Association and Karen Bremer, who's the head, they are big-time our advocates from the restaurant community standpoint. They have been instrumental in getting all of these things to happen. ROB: That's good to hear. MELISSA: They are definitely representing everyone. They really, really are. ROB: When all this started, I'm sure you had some clients who were already doing online ordering, some who resisted it very much at the onset, probably some who flipped over, maybe some holdouts. What were the stages of technology enablement that you've seen across your client portfolio? MELISSA: It was very interesting to watch that. Anybody that was already doing online ordering immediately took it up a notch and they were great. And then you have fine dining restaurants like Aria and Umi, and they're like, “How am I going to do takeout? How can you take out sushi?” It goes against everything that they have ever dreamed of for their restaurant. Then a couple of weeks go by and they're like, “Yeah, we've got to figure this out.” And they did. In the case of Umi, they got beautiful packaging and they really figured out a way to create the Umi experience, even insofar as how you drive up and how you're greeted and how you receive your food. Everything about it is very Umi-like, and it's probably some of the more expensive takeout you'll ever get in your life. Umi has a broad menu that you can choose from. Aria took a different stance and they do two choices a day, and they post their menu every single day of what's tonight's menu. Some people get Aria three or four times a week because it's different every night. They've got a beautiful curbside pickup. I guess we probably have a couple that don't do online ordering or takeout, but it's few. It was hard, because we had to get the technology set up, and that's always painful. ROB: I imagine in Umi's case, they may have also been tracking – I think there was a sushi restaurant up in New York that went to some sort of like $800 takeout. Did you see this? MELISSA: [laughs] No, I didn't. ROB: Yeah, there was a New York sushi restaurant that went to $800 takeout. I saw some very elevated packaging from Sugarfish, which is a smallish/medium-ish sushi chain, that really did elevate that experience. My own experience has really been that during this time, it has become a time for those who are in the hospitality industry to think about hospitality far more than just being in the food and feeding people industry. MELISSA: Absolutely. That's exactly right, and Umi is the perfect example of that. They took their current offering and put it to go. They really did. And the love and care that they give you when you're dining in, you receive via takeout. They have now opened it for dine-in, but the takeout was such a hit that they kept that going. I wonder to myself if they will continue that when they don't have to anymore. ROB: I'm very much excited, especially the restaurants that have figured out how to be hospitable in their takeout and have that passion for serving people. I'm indeed curious how that will continue onwards. You mentioned that MLA has been in the hospitality industry – you mentioned you've been in business for 27 years. Have you been deep into hospitality from the onset? Let me start there. MELISSA: We have. I started the company in 1992. My background was I had a job at Hyatt. I was working in the hotel business. My contacts were already in the hospitality business, so those were the type of client leads I was getting back then. Then as '96 and the Olympics started getting closer, Atlanta's hospitality scene started to beef up a little bit. then when the Olympics hit, I think the whole world saw Atlanta for the great place that it is, and before I knew it, I was focusing on restaurants. I don't think I could've done that when I first started. I don't think there would've been enough restaurants to keep me employed. But that changed, and I was a part of it. It was awesome. ROB: It's amazing to stick with it for that long. I think some people start off in the serving hospitality, but they find a hard way to make it a rewarding business for themselves as entrepreneurs and they start to get wandering eyes for how to better serve other clients. Particularly, I think there's a perception – and a reality, depending on the client – of the margins in the world of being an agency driven around the hospitality industry. You seem to be happy to have made it work for coming up on three decades. How do you attribute that ongoing passion for the industry – and also, you've been able to hire people as well. You're not a one-person show, just scraping by, taking pictures yourself and posting pictures of food. How has that worked well for you? MELISSA: There's no question that I love the industry, and I think that has to be – I'm sure I could go work in another industry and make more money, but I do love the industry, and I love working with the restaurant owners and the chefs. It's a very creative group of people. It's a very entrepreneurial group of people. I really enjoy working with other people. I love to be in a meeting and go, “Hey, I have a great idea. Let's do this!” “Okay, that sounds good.” Boom, off you go and start doing it. It doesn't have to run up a flagpole of approvals and all of that stuff so that by the time the idea is finally approved, it's completely different and 3 months later. I really enjoy the atmosphere of what we do. I feel like from focusing the way that I do and focusing my team in the way that I do, we're just incredibly efficient. The fact that we represent a lot of restaurants makes us a huge value to the media, so they can just make one phone call and say, “I'm looking for recipes using apples” – and this is a true story; got it this morning – and I can make like eight calls and then, 3 hours later, call the reporter back and go, “Okay, I've got” – and this is true – “a Brussel sprout and apple salad, I've got an apple pie, I've got this, I've got this.” The reporter has only had to make one call and spend 5 minutes. So, I think that's made us very efficient. You're right; restaurants don't have a lot of money, but I have to say that they value public relations and community relations and communications over more traditional advertising. Because it stretches a little bit more. Their money will stretch a little bit farther with us than it would two ads that month. It really has been – I've made a living. [laughs] I pay my bills, almost always on time. ROB: And sometimes you get some good meals along the way, and that's pretty good too. MELISSA: I definitely do. I definitely do that, yes, for sure. ROB: Wonderful. When we think about some of these clients – entrepreneurs, and I think restauranteurs sometimes in particular, may have a reputation of being a little bit hard to corral. When someone comes in with that need for that story, for that recipe, some of them might not even read your email until the next day. I think a lot of people, even more broadly beyond the hospitality industry, would wonder: is there a secret? Is it that you just know so well into the businesses that you can maybe bypass the entrepreneur and go straight to a chef internally? Is it that you tend to work with restauranteurs who have their details together more? Is it that you're sometimes able to just know things well enough that you can be a proxy for them? Or a combination of everything? How do you tighten those lines of communication? Because everybody wants, I think, that level of execution and responsiveness to be able to pull something from an idea to a published-in-the-media message quickly. But clients may not always make that easy for you. MELISSA: Oh, for sure they don't. [laughs] The answer to your question is certainly all of the above. Every single client is different, has a different way that they like to be communicated with. We just have to learn, “Okay, this guy, if we text him at 2:00 it's going to be our very best time to get his attention. This one, we've got to call because he knows if I'm calling, it's got to be really important. Otherwise I'm just going to send him an email. This person likes all five things put in an email at the end of the day. This person likes everything in subject by subject email.” We really just have to figure them out. But they all are paying us to get the word out, so if they take too long or don't answer or whatever, I just let them know, “Hey, you missed an opportunity. This is why, so next time, here's what we've got to do.” They get it. And we also know on our end who's fast to answer – and I tell clients this when I first meet with them about “Are we going to work with you or not?” I always say, “There is no question, the people that answer us quickly and thoroughly are the ones that get the best press. So that's what you've got to do.” They always go, “Okay, okay, I'm going to do it!” And then some do and some don't. But it's the truth. You get out what you put in. But if we get a last-minute request and we don't have a lot of time, we have our go-tos because we know who's going to respond. That's the goal, to be a go-to. ROB: You've been in this business a while longer than some of the recent shifts in the food media world. It seems like between web outlets, between review sites and increased interest in the TV landscape around food, the culture of food and interest in good food has shifted mightily. What is trending now? What is evergreen now, and what is withering away in terms of getting attention within the hospitality industry? MELISSA: That's a really good question, and I'm not sure, given everything going on, that I can answer that with any great knowledge. I've seen the food industry go through all kinds of changes, and I think that food as an entertainment avenue is here forever. I just can't see that going away. But I think that with COVID and the concerns of the large gatherings, and even the very tight quarters, that's going to – I don't want to say go away, but I think there's going to be less of that. I think people that are opening restaurants right now for sure are not cramming tables in. They're also not making a humongous restaurant. So, I think we're going to see some more medium-size restaurants with a lot of space. I think we're probably going to see some lower priced menus. Just a more mainstream, low-key, as everybody gets back into it and figures out – I just can't imagine people opening a big, flashy, fancy restaurant right this minute. And that's not to say that they won't, and that's not to say that they wouldn't be successful. But I think if you were making your decision today, that would probably not be what you would do. Now, there are people that are well into the planning for a restaurant that's supposed to open next week or in a month or whatever, and they have to go with what they've got and use the guidelines from the state until they don't have to anymore. ROB: The intersection that you sit at, I'm sure that your existing clients and people getting into the industry even look to you to an extent for strategy as well. One thing you hear swirling in the restaurant industry is diversification of business model. Some people are already going into events. That's obviously changing a little bit. Some have been going into additional retail product lines. What are you suggesting to clients as they think about where to go with technology enablement and where to go with overall restaurant business strategy, possibly diversifying? MELISSA: One thing that's big is the ghost kitchen/pop-up idea. I have a couple clients, Drift in East Cobb is doing a lobster roll pop-up calls Pop's Lobster Shack. They did it kind of out of necessity during COVID. They made this takeout window – and I don't know if you know this, but lobster was really, really inexpensive. I don't know if it still is, but all the lobster fishermen didn't have anybody to sell to because all the restaurants up there were closed, so everybody got lobster really cheap. I don't know if people are noticing, but you can probably get lobster at Applebee's right now. I don't know. But anyway, they started this lobster roll special called Pop's, and it's been unbelievably successful. We had a meeting the other day and they were like, “I think we're going to just keep this going. When lobster's out of season, we'll do something else.” I already had some clients that were talking about that sort of ghost kitchen idea, where you do something different than what you already do in your restaurant, you have a different menu offering, but you don't have the building and the huge branding and all the expenses that go along with it. You just sell it on Door Dash or whatever the situation is. So that's definitely happening right now. As far as technology, I think the online ordering is glitchy right now. I see it already getting better, and I think it's going to get way better very, very quickly, and people are going to be able to, as you suggested, order merch and maybe seasonings and all that stuff in a much less clunky way than they even can do right now. I'm excited for that to happen because it's been painful, some of these online sites that we've been working with. ROB: I can't imagine, and it sounds like you've had to. Melissa, as you reflect on the business as you have built it thus far, what are some things that you would consider maybe doing differently if you were starting over from scratch? MELISSA: That's a very good question. One of the things that I always tell people when they say, “What should I know before I start a business?” is I did not plan for success when I started. I planned, “What am I going to do if I fail? When am I going to decide it doesn't work, and then what am I going to do?” I spent a lot of time thinking about that, but I didn't spend any time – not even a minute – thinking about, “What am I going to do if I've got more clients than I can handle? What am I going to do if there are not enough hours in the day for me to do all the work by myself?” I never thought of any of that. I spent probably 2 or 3 years running like a crazy woman, trying to hire a person here and there, do this, do that. Always that's my first thing that I tell people: plan for success. Have some people lined up. Have some things lined up to support you if it goes well. That's always been my best learning, because it's like “Why didn't I do that?” And then many years ago – but it was still well into the business – I realized that the traditional PR business model or way of setting up your staff didn't work for me. You probably know this, but it was always account supervisor, account executive, assistant account executive, little silos, and they did everything. They met with the client, they wrote the business plan, they wrote the press release, they sent the press release, they did everything. I realized I would come back to the office and go, “Hey, we got a new client,” and everybody would duck their head like, “Oh my God, don't give it to me, don't give it to me.” I was like, oh, this is not good. So I divided everybody up by what they like to do best and what they're best at, so now we have writers and we have media relations people and we have social media people and we have client services people. If your thing is meeting with the clients and writing timelines and writing plans and checking off lists, then that's what you do. And if you're a great writer and you can sit in a quiet room all day long and write, write, write, write, write, that's what you do. It was just a huge help, and it changed everything. And then there was an added bonus of if someone leaves, the brain trust does not walk out the door because everyone has been working on the client. So that was a big learning, and it's something that I'm glad came to me at some point in the years. ROB: Sure. One thing I think adjacent to that is in this case – and it's fairly common in the PR industry – your name is on the door, and that can be a challenge in bringing in other people. How have you addressed the challenge where Melissa is quite often the person who goes out and earns the trust of the client, and your reputation is a big part of the value that you bring, but at some point your client's going to have to work with somebody who's not Melissa? How have you handled that scaling yourself problem? MELISSA: It's a good question, and it worried me so much for a long time. I felt like I had to be at every new business meeting, I had to really, really be involved and really assure the prospective client that I was their main contact and all of that. I think the true answer is good people. I have people that have been with me 11 years, 8 years. I've been really fortunate to have long-term employees who are awesome, and the client just wants somebody that's going to help them get the work done. I love client meetings, so I go to as many of them as I can. The beauty, though, is I don't have to write the agenda. I don't have to take the notes. I don't have to do the follow-up. I'm just spending that hour of my time brainstorming with that client or advising that client or listening to that client. So, I'm giving them my best. I'm giving them what they expect from me and what they value from me, but then I have a very competent person and a whole team behind that person that's going to take care of the details. Over time, I've just gotten more and more comfortable with it – and that's truly what it was: me getting comfortable with it. I think it was more in my head than it was anything else. I think the clients are fine with it because, once again, they're being taken care of. If they weren't, I'm sure they would say, “Melissa, you schluffed me off on this person and they're no good.” But fortunately that does not happen. Also, one of my key employees took on the new business development role a few years ago, so she is bonused on the new business that she brings in. She takes a really instrumental role in that, to the point where now sometimes we have to be sure that the prospective client realizes that she may not be the person that they're going to see every day too. It's funny. It's kind of transferred over a little bit. ROB: It definitely makes sense. It sounds like one of those things you find along the way; you took it from your name and your person being the reputation to when people bring in Melissa Libby & Associates, your reputation is also the people you bring to the table and who does the work. MELISSA: Yes, exactly. ROB: The brand is still you; you haven't shied away from that, but you've expanded what it means. MELISSA: Right. And as you'll notice, we a long time ago started using MLA as our logo. Our web address was MelissaLibbyPR.com; now it's ThinkMLA.com because we wanted to expand beyond the PR and be more than that, and then we also wanted to shorten it and use that MLA more. It just takes my name out of it a little bit. Just a little bit. ROB: Perfect. Melissa, when people want to find you and MLA, where should they go to find you? MELISSA: ThinkMLAcom. ROB: Excellent. Even in the website, it's changed a little bit. Or was that always the address? MELISSA: No, it's changed. ROB: Very good. Melissa, thank you for enlightening us on your journey with Melissa Libby & Associates as well as the journey of the hospitality industry during this time. I've learned a lot, and I think the listeners will have as well. MELISSA: Thank you. I enjoyed it. ROB: Be well. Thank you. MELISSA: All righty. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Melissa Jay Murphy 0:06 Welcome to this week's Title Now Pop Up webinar, I'm Melissa Murphy General Counsel at The Fund, and I have the pleasure of hosting these weekly pop up webinars. For those of you who might be new to this, we offer them pretty much every week. They are on Thursday’s at noon. 30 minutes. I'm pretty strict about that, and they are free, and we just try to touch on a variety of topics that would be of interest to real estate practitioners, Fund Members their staffs, and anyone interested in the real estate and settlement services industry. We also push the audio content out on our podcast, which is also called Title Now, so that's easy to remember. And you can subscribe to that podcast anywhere that you subscribe to other podcasts. So, sign up, and then you can get the audio content if you miss a weekly webinar. So, thanks. Many of our past webinars have focused on an issue related to the pandemic, that we are all currently experiencing remote online notarization altered office practices, eviction and foreclosure moratoriums, which by the way was extended today, until September 1, and the economy. But today we're going to learn about an issue facing many businesses that is not related to the pandemic. So, we're all aware of the Americans with Disabilities Act. And some of us are certainly more aware than others just based on your circumstances. But have you ever thought about whether the ADA applies to websites or to your website? We have the perfect guest with us today to talk about that. So, I want to introduce Adam Chotiner, he's a shareholder with Shapiro Blasi Wasserman Hermann in Boca Raton. He's been practicing law for 22 years. Adam is board certified by The Florida Bar in labor and employment law, but throughout his practice he has also had extensive experience defending public access discrimination claims under the Americans with Disabilities Act, and various types of Fair Housing Act claims. He has counseled countless clients on accessibility matters, including physical barrier issues and website accessibility concerns. So welcome Adam, thank you so much for being with us today. Adam Chotiner 3:12 Thank you, Melissa, and welcome to everybody. I'm going to jump right into it. As she said today, I'm going to speak with you about public Access Disability Discrimination claims. For more than 25 years extensive substantial amount of such claims have been filed against private businesses and property owners under the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990. Recently there's been a new trend that has developed, where real estate agents and brokers are getting hit with claims that their websites are advertisements, under the Fair Housing Act, and are not accessible to visually impaired individuals. So, let's start at the beginning, which is the ADA. The ADA has three parts to it. Part One deals with employment. Part Two deals with state and local governments. We are dealing with Part Three, Title Three. Title Three became effective in 1993. Beginning around the mid-90s, mid-to-late ‘90s, a wave of ADA lawsuits began to be filed and Florida has consistently been one of the top states for ADA lawsuits in the entire country. Now, when it comes to physical structures and surrounding architectural issues, there are literally hundreds of regulations that specify how these properties and facilities are to be compliant. It covers everything from how wide a parking space needs to be to the slope of the parking lots and ramps to table heights to door widths to even the height of the toilets and the type of faucet handles in the bathroom. The level of detail is actually staggering. But it generally makes it easy to determine whether something is compliant or not. You take out a tape measure, or a level, and it's either compliant or it's not. Since the effective date in 1993, all new construction has had to comply 100% with the regulations. Existing structures at time also need to comply, there is no such thing as being grandfathered in where you just don't have to comply at all. Existing structures have a different standard though they have to comply, but they only have to comply to the extent it is readily achievable. Now what is readily achievable. It's sort of like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder. But ultimately if a property or a business is not 100% compliant. Then there is potential exposure and a risk of being sued. And if you cannot achieve 100% compliance, for whatever reason, then the goal is to be as unattractive a target as possible. Melissa Jay Murphy 6:20 What do you mean by an unattractive target? Adam Chotiner 6:25 The example I always give is this. Let's say you have a restaurant. It's a free-standing structure, and it has a restroom, of course. Let's say that everything inside that facility everything from the parking lot to the interior everything is 100% compliant, except the size of the restroom. Okay, even within the restroom, the fixtures are correct, the toilet is the right height, the grab bars are in the right place, but ultimately there's, it's just such an older property that the only way to get sufficient clear floor space within the restroom, is to start knocking down walls, you need to enlarge the restaurant. So, you have a situation like that. But again, everything else is compliant. In my experience, that is not a property that is likely to be sued. Because it's simply an unattractive target to a plaintiff's lawyer. Why, because in that situation, the defendant, number one probably has a good argument that it is not readily achievable. And number two, as part of that you may very well be backing the defendant into the corner where it might be better for the defendant to actually fight the case and establish that it's not readily achievable. And this is a good example of what readily achievable means. It's not just the cost of doing the work. Say again in the restaurant example. Well if you're going to enlarge the restroom, you're going to make something else, smaller, and let's say as a result of enlarging the restroom, you actually lose one or two tables for customers to sit at. Alright well now, there's a different party analysis which gets into ongoing damage ongoing loss of revenue. So that's what I mean when I say, an attractive target. Melissa Jay Murphy 8:24 Okay. Adam Chotiner 8:25 So, until several years ago, pretty much all of the ADA lawsuits were these kinds of physical or architectural barrier cases. Then the attorneys who file these cases decided to try something new. They started suing businesses by claiming that the business's website is inaccessible to visually impaired individuals. Now blind and visually impaired individuals can access and use websites and the internet, using what's called screen reader software. But for the software to be effective, the website itself, simply needs to be programmed in a certain way. And the essence of the claims, was that the websites were not programmed in the right way. Now, these website cases are especially challenging. The main reason is that unlike with physical structures. There are no regulations that specify what it means for a website to be compliant. We just don't know specifically what it means. A secondary challenge is that the law is currently unsettled as to the extent to which a business's website can even be challenged under the ADA. In the 11th circuit, as it stands right now, there needs to be a nexus, or a connection to a physical location that a person may seek to access or learn more about such that the website is treated as an extension of that physical space. Melissa Jay Murphy 10:07 So, have any website cases been brought to trial and end been ruled upon? Adam Chotiner 10:16 So, the question today in the entire United States, there has only been one ADA website case which has gone all the way to trial. Not coincidentally, that was in Florida. In fact, in South Florida, and that case was brought against Winn Dixie the supermarket chain. Winn Dixie lost. Now, before going on to talk about that case this is a good point to discuss what I call, or what people call ‘WIC AG’, WCAG stands for the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. WCAG comes from an organization called the Web Accessibility Initiative, which in turn is part of the World Wide Web Consortium, W3C, the consortium is an international community, that helps set standards for the web, so that the web is more uniform and runs better. For a few years, the standard, quote unquote, for website accessibility under WCAG has been what we call WCAG 2.0. Now that version of the guidelines has 38 of what are called success criteria, which are things that at least ostensibly can be measured in some way to determine accessibility. And recently, they came out with WCAG 2.1, which adds 12 new success criteria for a total of 50. Melissa Jay Murphy 12:00 What are some examples of this success criteria, because I'm trying to envision what it is about a website that is critical? Adam Chotiner 12:11 Sure. Here's just a handful of things that are identified as success criteria. Is there are there transcripts available for video only and audio only content? Is there closed captioning for videos with sound? You cannot rely on color alone to display or convey information. You have to be able to pause, stop or mute any audio conveyed on the website. All content and functions on the website, must be accessible by keyboard only without using a mouse. Users have to be able to navigate through a website in a logical sequential order that preserves meaning. Now, that's a little vague but that is one of the criteria. Melissa Jay Murphy 13:04 You would think that we need that on all websites. Adam Chotiner 13:06 Yeah, you would think though. Form errors need to be easy to identify understand and correct. One of the newer success criteria is to make sure that text spacing is able to be adjusted without causing a poor experience using the website. So those are just some examples of the success criteria. Now, I've handled many of these ADA website cases. And everyone that I've settled on ultimately, we have settled by using the WCAG 2.0 or 2.1 standard. Again, there are no regulations. But WCAG is pretty much the closest thing we have right now to some sort of objective criteria. Melissa Jay Murphy 13:55 So those WCAG guidelines had been used to settle a case but no court has ruled that those are the applicable standards. Adam Chotiner 14:04 No, actually that's what happened in the Winn Dixie. Okay. The Winn Dixie case Winn Dixie lost, and the judge imposed WCAG 2.0 as the standard. Now Winn Dixie appealed that decision. Now oral argument in that appeal before the 11th circuit was held, almost two years ago October of 2018, and we still do not have a ruling. Now, in my experience that's kind of a long time for an appellate court a federal appellate court to, to not rule. We're not really sure what they're waiting for at this point. But those of us who practice in this area are very anxiously waiting for some kind of guidance. So with all that in mind, I'd like to just briefly talk about what I mentioned was sort of the latest craze, which is that a lot of real estate agents brokers and realtors are receiving these demand letters and draft complaints. Now, so far, based on what I've seen these demand letters and draft complaints are being asserted under the Fair Housing Act. As I'm sure you know the Fair Housing Act, anti-discrimination provisions apply to any advertisements. Unfortunately, it's probably difficult to argue that a website, on which available housing can be viewed, is not an advertisement. I think that's the essence of what these demand letters are claiming. Now, a question is why are they traveling under the Fair Housing Act and not the ADA? I believe there's two reasons. First, the ADA only applies to quote places of public accommodation close quote that generally means places like restaurants, stores, shopping centers, malls, movie theaters, gas stations, office buildings, and similar private businesses with a physical location that is open to the public. I think it's at least arguable that real estate agents and brokers, maybe some of them do not represent places of public accommodation, particularly if they maybe work out of their home. So rather than even fight that battle. These lawyers sending these letters are going right to the Fair Housing Act. The second reason why I think they're traveling under the Fair Housing Act is that the ADA does not allow for damages, a plaintiff suing under Title Three of the ADA is not entitled to damages or monetary relief. They're only entitled to injunctive relief, basically in order requiring the defendant to fix the property, of course, that also entitles the plaintiff to have his attorneys’ hourly fees paid. And because it's an only injunctive relief. There are no jury trials, under the ADA, but with the Fair Housing Act damages are recoverable and jury trials are allowed. Melissa Jay Murphy 17:08 So, How are these cases against the real estate agents and the real estate brokers? How are they being defended can they be different? Adam Chotiner 17:18 Well that's a, that's a good question and I think it's the answer is, I'm going to answer it in a more broad sort of way, which really it applies to any of these sort of public access type disability claims. You know, in theory, they certainly can be successfully defended, but it is often cost prohibitive to take that approach. Under these laws, a prevailing plaintiff will recover the attorneys’ hourly fees and costs, however, except in extremely rare situations, a prevailing defendant gets nothing, and a prevailing defendant should not expect to recover their fees and costs. So, most of these cases do settle for nothing else than a business decision in terms of overall cost and expense. Plus, in my experience, it is unusual for there to be insurance coverage that defends these claims. I have seen it, but it's definitely on the unusual side. Now, for many years, a typical defense in an ADA case at least would attack, the plaintiffs standing, essentially, arguing that the plaintiff was not a genuine customer but instead was, you know, a serial filer of lawsuits. Unfortunately for those of us who defend these claims and they in the businesses they get it back in 2013, the 11th circuit held that ADA plaintiffs can have standing as testers, which basically took a bad situation and made it worse. And actually, made it easier for these cases to be filed. Nowadays they the most effective way to defend a claim is for a defendant to fix everything that needs to be fixed and to do it ASAP. Under the ADA, if a defendant fixes everything that's wrong, then the defendant can seek a dismissal based on mootness, since only injunctive relief is available. If everything is fixed, then there's no relief to grant. Significantly infant case is dismissed due to mootness, then the plaintiff is not entitled to attorneys’ fees, even if the defendant only fixed everything, because a lawsuit was filed. Now, in any of these matters there's always two goals. Okay, at least from my standpoint, representing a client. First you want to address and resolve the pending claim. But second, you want to take steps to prevent future claims, because of issues remain. There's definitely exposure for a subsequent lawsuit. Now, for several reasons, you know, certainly, it'll typically take a client, some time to come into compliance. Once a matter settles. Now, if it's a private settlement, and the property or website remains non-compliant pending any modifications, then there is a risk of another claim being asserted, and the fact that you've reached a private settlement with another plaintiff, but yet haven't yet finished the work is not a defense is not a defense. Having said that, if an actual lawsuit has been filed as opposed to a pre-suit settlement, then you can choose to settle the matter via a consent decree, which basically serves as an order of the court. And so, if during the compliance period, and I've seen it anywhere from six months to three years or more. But if during that period another claim is asserted, then you would have an excellent argument that the new law suit is moot and shouldn't be dismissed, because the defendant is already under a court order, meaning this consent decree, and that order provides remaining time to comply. Ultimately, the sad truth is that when it comes to these public access claims. There really is no sort of get out of jail free card. There's no, I say there's no VIP lounge or champagne room, you know, they need to be addressed and ultimately it's going to cost money plain and simple. Adam Chotiner 21:47 Now, I will say this. One of the issues with website issues is that taking the approach or quote unquote fixing everything right away is challenging. Why? Because there are no regulations, and so it can be very difficult to convince a court that your website now complies with the ADA or the Fair Housing Act. When we really don't know what it means to comply in the first place. So that can be really challenging, but I when I speak about these public access claims I always like to tell the Clint Eastwood story. And I tell it to clients as well. The Clint Eastwood story doesn't necessarily make my client feel any better once they've been sued. But I do tell it to demonstrate that that businesses and individuals who get hit with these claims. They shouldn't necessarily feel powerless, because they're the little guy. The truth is sometimes you can't fight City Hall, no matter who you are. For many years, one of the primary gripes about these public access claims, is that the law does not require pre suit notice it simply does, you can just go right into filing a lawsuit. There have been attempts to change the law, including a couple of years the House of Representatives passed the bill. But it went nowhere in the Senate. And I will tell you having followed this issue for many years. This is not some kind of political hot potato issue. That scenario I just described is played out many times over the past 20 years, with different parties in the two houses and in the White House. It just doesn't matter who is in charge. It just hasn't happened, and I don't think it's going to happen. So about 15 to 20 years ago, Clint Eastwood got sued. Regarding the restaurant that he owns in Carmel, California, where many years ago he was the mayor. Now, like many people. He couldn't believe that the law didn't require a pre-suit notice, but unlike most people, and because he's Clint Eastwood. He was able to go to Washington DC, and he spoke before a congressional committee and implore them to change the law for all the reasons you might expect. But as you've already heard nothing happened, law hasn't been changed. The moral of the Clint Eastwood story is that in Dirty Harry couldn't get something done really what chance do the rest of us have, again, doesn't necessarily make feel, make people feel better, but it might make them feel a little less powerless that ultimately you're just up against something that it's very difficult to fight. So, for now, like I said, We await further guidance from the courts, particularly on these website issues. But ultimately, if someone does get hit with an ADA claim or a demand letter under the Fair Housing Act, really they need to try and look to achieve the same two goals I mentioned earlier. You want to address an obvious thing resolve the immediate claim, but it is important to take steps to try and prevent future claims. Thank you. Melissa Jay Murphy 25:08 So, Adam a couple of questions, with regard to the website situation. Are there companies out there that are sort of in the business or are in the business of helping companies fix their websites? Is there a burgeoning industry out there? Is that a well-established industry? Adam Chotiner 25:38 I'm not sure I would describe it as well established, but it is an industry now I will say this. Nowadays, there's things that you can buy that I've seen this sold called widgets that are ostensibly these autonomous programs and sort of apps that you can install on a computer system that are intended to, you know, address these kinds of website issues. However, in my experience, what I've found is that they're better than nothing, but in many cases I believe that the level of compliance that they help you achieve is still significantly lacking, and does leave you exposed. If a company came to me and said, you know, money is no object. We want to be as compliant as possible. We want to comply with WCAG 2.1 to the maximum extent. How do we do that? Then I would advise them to engage a company that does specialize in website accessibility compliance, and there are companies like that. There are companies that I've referred clients to. And what these companies do is, it's not merely a matter of programming to achieve true compliance, you want to do human auditing. What the widgets purport to do is sort of autonomous auditing, but it just isn't as effective. So these companies make the programming changes to the website, but then they literally do human spot checking. They actually check the effectiveness of the changes they go through, the success criteria, and they see hands on is this stuff, you know, now compliant the way that WCAG intends. Melissa Jay Murphy 27:55 So you need to make sure that whatever company or product that you buy knows what those guidelines are and agrees to bring you in compliance with whatever the most current version of those guidelines would be on the pretty reasonable assumption that that's going to be the measure, or the standard against which you're going to be measured. Adam Chotiner 28:20 That's true. And I will say I mean, you know like, when a lot of things you do get what you pay for the widgets are generally an economical option because it's like I said it's sort of autonomous. But to give you an example when the Winn Dixie trial took place. The testimony at that trial was that for Winn Dixie to get its website to comply with WCAG 2.0, that the cost involved in that was a six-figure number. So now granted the Winn Dixie website has hundreds maybe thousands of pages to it. Because presumably you know if you click on a product, you know it might have its own page so it's an extensive website and generally speaking, the cost of modifying a website is largely tied to how many pages the site consists of, but it's not necessarily an inexpensive proposition to have a company do it with human auditing. But again, if you're really looking to protect yourself and you're looking to maximize or minimize your exposure and risk, then that's the way to go. Melissa Jay Murphy 29:44 Well, Adam, we are out of time. Thank you so much for spending a little bit of time with us and clearly you've just touched the surface with us on this issue but I think you've done a great job of telling us what we need to know in order to know how much we don't know which is always helpful in my estimation. Adam Chotiner 30:09 Everybody now knows enough to be dangerous. Melissa Jay Murphy 30:11 Very, very. Melissa Jay Murphy 30:14 That's always our goal in these webinars. Adam Chotiner 30:18 You're right. You're very welcome Melissa Thank you very much. Thank you everybody for having me. Thank you. Melissa Jay Murphy 30:24 Thanks everybody for attending. You can catch the audio content on our podcast I will remind you of that and look for the notifications of our future pop up webinars, Thursdays at noon 30 minutes. And as always, Thank you for your support of The Fund.

A young girl has her heart broken when her vampire boyfriend falls for a blazing hot  recent arrival and watches helplessly as they fight their burgeoning but forbidden lust for one another. Joelle - Your budget shouldn’t be that budget. Parry - This is my holy water and I’m takin’ it back, I’m takin’ it all back! Melissa - Thank you, Chris for that very woke moment. Now continuing on with production notes. Chris - Unlike the Lost Boys, I wanted to sex with zero people in Twilight!

Building your property management business and team can be challenging. As a business owner and entrepreneur, you are wired to fix problems. So, get out of the way, and hire people who have different skill sets to solve them. Today, I am talking Melissa Prandi of PRANDI Property Management. Everybody in the National Association of Residential Property Managers (NARPM) knows her name. She helped establish it and has been in the property management business for 37 years. You’ll Learn... [03:13] Brand new baby, brand new company, but no bank loan. [04:23] Beginning of NARPM and best practices for property management software. [05:25] Solopreneur Sandtrap: Can only handle 50-60 doors before getting stuck. [05:48] Team Sandtrap: Bottleneck of 200-400 doors when building a team, creating a culture, and systemizing processes become painful. [06:33] How to build a team: Different personalities and skill sets. [09:15] Success comes with your willingness to change. [12:15] Good at growing the company and letting people grow or go. [14:50] End-of-the-day (EOD) Report: Rate your day, workload, challenges. [15:50] Working from home: Nobody can touch you; a physical disconnect. [16:44] Modes of Communication: Basecamp, Voxer, and email. Analyze styles to know what tools to use. [21:10] Entrepreneur’s Ego: Nobody can do it as good as me. [24:57] It’s not always about business. Something’s going on. What can I do to help? [28:42] Face-time and morning connections to catch awesomeness and say thanks. [31:30] Making mistakes and ‘aha’ moments; what did you do/should have done? [34:15] Be a student and fan of what works, and be willing to fail. Never stop learning; speak and teach. Share your knowledge because people soak it up. [38:20] Keep yourself well to be a good leader. Health is #1 thing to impact productivity. [44:40] Reach out and lean on others who have been through the same things. Tweetables Success comes with your willingness to change. Be a student and fan of what works and be willing to fail. To grow your business, you have to build a community. You can’t do everything. Listening to chipmunks all day long telling you what needs to happen. Resources Melissa Prandi PRANDI Property Management NARPM Tony Robbins: DiSC Personality Test Basecamp Voxer Bluefishing: The Art of Making Things Happen by Steve Sims EMDR Therapy DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. And today, I have a very special guest, Melissa Prandi. Melissa, welcome to the DoorGrow Show. Melissa: Thank you. I’m happy to be here. Jason: Melissa, you are practically synonymous with NARPM, you helped found NARPM, you have everybody in NARPM knows you, and you have been involved in property management for how many years now? Melissa: Thirty-seven years. March 27. Jason: Thirty-seven years which is almost my entire life, right? Melissa: You have to say that, yup. Jason: Which is amazing. You have tons of experience, you are this phenomenal character and charismatic person. Everybody’s been telling me I have to get Melissa on the show. I’m really excited for you to be here. Maybe the place to start would be to why don’t you share with everybody your story? How did you get started in property management all that time ago? What crazy idea popped in your head to make you decide that [...] Melissa: There’s a lot of crazy [...]. I have to say I started in my company March 27, 1982 as a receptionist. I came in, all of my friends have gone off to college, I said, “I’m not going to afford to go to college. I’m going to work three jobs.” So, I came in, that was one of my three jobs, I was a receptionist at a property management company. I worked there 5½ years. This is great because women love this part of the story. When I went out on maternity leave on a Wednesday at five o’clock, I went grocery shopping Thursday and Friday morning I went into labor. If you know where I live, I’m in Marin County just north of San Francisco and I had to cross the Golden Gate bridge. I got to the hospital at 10 minutes to eight in the morning, I [...] 10 minutes to nine in the morning, said, “Okay, give me my [...] I have things to do with backup,” went home the same day. Jason: What? Melissa: Yeah. I had this new baby boy, Matt, many people know Matt, and Monday morning the owners of my company called and said, “We’re going to sell this company. If you don’t buy it, you’re going to be out of the job.” I didn’t take too long. I said, “Oh, you know. Hmm, I have a new baby. Hmm,” and I’m going to have two new babies. Sure enough, I made arrangements. I went to my dad and said, “Dad, I want to buy this company.” He goes, “Really?” and I said, “Yeah, I want to buy it.” He said, “All right,” and I said, “Well, I need a loan.” He goes, All right, I’ll give you $3000.” But the [...] you can’t do is go to a bank and get a loan, so I had to get very creative with this brand new baby and a brand new company. That was 37 years go. Jason: That was quite the adventure. When an entrepreneur personality type is given a challenge like this, you had a clear outcome, clear objective, you were going to get that company and you had all of this pressure. Entrepreneurs in those moments, like we, light up and something magical starts to happen, right? And it work out for you. Melissa: I guess so. [...] I’m still sitting here and [...] NARPM, still doing property management. Jason: Great. Maybe share a little backstory on how did NARPM come to be? How this this come about? Melissa: It’s an interesting story. I wasn’t one of the original 100 that were in the charter of NARPM. A handful of people got together and they were actually exchanging software challenges. [...] own a software company at the time which is no longer, and they started talking about their best practices. They all kicked in money to start NARPM. I’m 25 years in NARPM, so you can imagine that’s pretty much a part of my life. Jason: Quite a while. Our topic today is building your business and team. At your business, Brandi Property Management, I would imagine that you have a pretty awesome team after all this time. A lot of people this is a big challenge. I’ve talked about this on the show before but there’s these two sand traps I’ve noticed in property management. The first sand trap in growth is around 50 or 60 units. This is the solopreneur sand trap. That’s about as many doors as they can handle on their own and they get stuck. Sometimes, they back themselves into a financial corner, they don’t have enough revenue to hire their first person, they’re managing as much as they can handle, they’re losing doors as fast as they’re getting on, and they’re stuck. For those listening, if you’re stuck in that, talk to me. We can help you get past that. If you break past that 100 door barrier, I found that by default they end up in the next sand trap, which is the 200–400 door category. This is where it’s the team sand trap. This is where they’re not building a team, they’re trying to create culture, they’re trying to systemize processes, they’re trying to wrap their head around what they should be doing, and as they approach maybe 400–500 units it gets really painful because everybody’s asking them for everything and they start to realize they are the number one bottleneck in the entire business, that everything they got them there they have to give up. I’m excited to talk with you because you’ve dealt with this stuff and you’ve seen this. Maybe you could share your perspective of what does it really take to build a business and how does the team really play into that from your perspective. Melissa: You touched on little bit of my message is getting out of the way. I’m not the tech generation, the paperless generation. I still use paper. I still like to print and read. It doesn’t work in today’s market for everybody. I would say the number one thing as you grow is to get out of the way. Get out of the way and hire people that have different skill sets. In our company, we always do personality tests. Tony Robbins offers it for free. Jason: The DISC? Melissa: Yeah, the DISC test. It’s free on his website. We do that, find the personality styles. For example, in a bookkeeper, you want someone who is very good, very high, and procedural. You want to make sure you find that in any of your staff mates. In our chain we have a big diversity, age, and skills. You can’t remember everybody have personality when you want to be like me. I never met a stranger and I’m a visionary. I’m the person who’s up with the ideas, tell us the way I wanted results and then gets out of the way. Jason: I love it. I’m a big proponent of using the DISC as well. In fact, Tony Robbins recently switched his DISC assessment, if you’ve noticed, from the inner metrics, which I actually used to have a connection where I would get the full three-part inner metrics, which is even better than the Tony Robbins one which gives you the first two portions. But then, it started getting watered down and smaller. They just recently switched DISC providers and it changed, but I find it’s better than what it was even though it’s not as pretty. You can do that free DISC assessment. You’ve got people on you team that are high C’s, they love compliance, they are rigid, they’re probably not the best friendly communicators, you’ve got high I’s that are great communicators and really great maybe with people, maybe high S’s that are great with customer service, maybe DC’s which are like unicorns that are really great at operations, maybe high DI’s which are great at sales and closing. Understanding that gives you a lot of power in being able to understand people. Melissa: [...] when you get ready to hire, looking at that needs assessments. Looking that what diversity is in your team, but I want to go back to something you test on again because this is where [...] out, which is change. Success comes with your willingness to change. That’s what basically you’re talking about as you’re training your team and also speaking to the property managers, as you said, they reach out to you. They have to be willing to change and I’m willing to change. That’s why I take a lot of classes even after all these years. I get into classes and I think of these aha moments that’s like, “Oh, I used to do that.” I cannot just go back sometimes and do things I used to do, but I also wanted to say, “Oh, we can’t do that.” “Why not?” “Well, we tried that.” Don’t have this theory of ‘that’s the way we’ve always done it,’ because that [...] stuck. Jason: Right. Any of us who have been in business long enough, we’ve probably forgotten more than we’ve learned. There’s so much and it’s great to get those reminders. You have mentioned early on that they need to get out of the way. How does somebody consciously do that? A lot of times when we’re in the way, we can’t see it. It’s almost like telling somebody, “Look at the back of your head.” It’s how they feel. You’re saying, “Get out of the way,” and they’re like, “I don’t even know how I’m in the way. How do I do that?” How do you help [...] Melissa: I’m sitting upstairs in a private suite away from my entire staff. My son, Matt, and let me just tell you I started the way I got the business when Matt was born, right? My son used to say, “Mom, nobody grows up and wants to be a property manager. Matt just celebrated his 11th year in property management and he’s our [...] Business Development Manager. Jason: Over a decade. Melissa: Yeah. But he didn’t. He went to college. He didn’t think, “Well, that’s what I want to be when I grow up. Nor did I. I don’t [...] thought you’re going to be servicing property managers.” But Matt sits in my original office. Therefore there’s a different skill set and, guess what, I’m not in the way. I’m down there and there’s something like walking by the office to go fix it as it get me out of the way. Jason: You’ve physically have gotten yourself out of the way so you’re not hearing the auditory things that you would normally trigger a response and cause you to go into fix-it mode as an entrepreneur because we hear problems, we’re wired. We want to fix it. We also see a problem, we’re like, “I can make money solving that problem.” That’s how we think. Melissa: And I tell you, I still go down, I’ll sit there and they want to see. Remember, I’m the face of the company. I’m the visionary. So, I [...] in the morning, I start down there, good morning to everybody, “Good morning, Frank. Good morning, Christine.” I go through my good mornings, I say hello to everybody there, and that’s [...]. I find out if there’s anything they need, me but I [...] work for the first couple of hours at home. What difference does it make? It allows me to actually stay home. Let me tell you that my role, I was a property manager as I said when I started in the business. Got my license and my broker’s license, went to California State, got into real estate, and then I helped grow the company. And I’m very good at it. I really think if you want to grow your business, you have to be in community. You can’t be in community and be in the office operations and running everything. You can’t do everything. I have gone out of the way by not being physically in an office downstairs where everybody can come to me. Now, I have a really good team. Christine Goodin who has her RMP with NARPM and her MPM. That’s a Residential Property Manager. MPM is a Master Property Manager. She came to work for me 18 years ago and she didn’t even know what property management was. And she’s now the Vice-President of Operations. So, you hire right, you bring them to educational courses. Don’t stand in their way growing, either. That’s another really key factor. Don’t let them get stagnant. I say, “How do you keep somebody happy for 18 years? Give them new challenges.” You give them new roles. Let them grow right along with you. Jason: Yeah, if you find somebody that has a growth mindset. Not everybody wants to grow. There are certain personality types that love growth, they love learning. On DISC they would have a high theoretical score typically, for example, on the Tony Robbins DISC profile that we have mentioned. But if they love learning, they have a growth mindset, and that’s a priority in their life is personal development, then you got a feedback. You feed them that and you have a team member that, just like fine wine, accrues value over time. Melissa: [...] I want to go back, though, because it’s not without mistakes when you hire someone that doesn’t like the business. I think oftentimes with property managers and our groups and our friends come to me and they ask questions. I think some of the hardest thing we had was letting go. We hire someone that doesn’t fit in the team, doesn’t fit in our culture, and we hang on. I think [...] over the years. It took me a while to get there. But I can tell you that if you’re mostly have a 30-day, a 60-day, maybe a 90-day introductory period, if it’s not working in that first month, it doesn’t usually change. So, if I [...] in the States because I’m nice and I’m a fixer, then I hang on. [...] wait too long. Again, if you’re going through and adding to your team, you need to really make sure that you’re checking in. I want to give you a tip because I’m talking about that. I love to share. Jason: Yeah. Melissa: In the first 90 days of a new team member come in to work at Prandi Property Management, we do what’s called EOD, an end of the day report. They actually write down things they learned, the challenges they found that day, and just some sharing. At the end of that, they rate their day a one, a two, or a three—there could be 2.5—based on what they feel their workload, three being, “I can’t handle any more and I’m full.” I have a new employee coming on and she’s been with me, let’s say, 20 days, and she gave me a 1–1½, we’re not giving her enough work. If you’re going to bring somebody new onto your team, again I don’t have to check on them, I don’t have to call on her, I don’t have to sit with her, somebody else is handling all the training, but as the owner, the CEO, and the visionary, I need to know how I’m doing with the team’s giving her information and what she needs from me to make her the best Prandi team member. Jason: You mentioned a couple of things that I think are really important to point out. One, you mentioned that by not just having your office separate or segregated but also being able to work from home and working from home. I run a virtual team and a virtual company. Nobody can touch me and I’ve always had that advantage that there is a physical disconnect. I will probably go on saying that if my assistant could walk in every 10 minutes and say, “Hey, what should I be doing now?” I would go nuts, right? Having that, that’s another option for those that are listening, there is a trend with some people that they’re moving towards more virtual teams and digital offices and that can also create that disconnect. Melissa: I want to ask you a question so I can also [...] and teach the audience. How do you communicate best with the person since you are virtual, and we all love the virtual part of it, how are you best communicating with your team member that’s even your assistant? What’s the best way you all communicate? Jason: Our main modes of communication, we use Basecamp as a communication platform. What that allows us to do is to post messages, to think about things, to get clarity and put it, and then we allow team members to respond to those, rather than throwing it all out real-time in a meeting where everybody has to react, because I find the responses are big-time wasters and it’s not as helpful. We usually post memos or post a to-do and then people that are need to be looped in will be looped in and can comment on that. That keeps things really quiet and makes people think. It creates a very calm workplace. That’s our foundational mode of communication. For quicker communication, we use the app Voxer and that is a walkie-talkie app. I don’t like typing and texting all the time. It takes too long. I’m quick. I want to send a voice message so I hold down a button on the app and I say, “Hey, Adam. Can you check on this client? They have mentioned this and do this and blah-blah-blah.” And then he’ll take care of it. The cool thing about Voxer is if you’re really impatient as an entrepreneur, if you listen to the messages, if you’re in the chat with somebody, the messages are real time. But if you’re not, it works like voice messages, like voicemail. And you can play them at high speed so you can speed up if they’re already done talking and the recording’s there, then you can play it at high speed. So, I’m listening to chipmunks all day long, telling me what needs to happen. There’s a lot of communication even through Voxer or a situation like that that I just need the details, so I can just listen really quickly and we can consume information cognitively and auditory-wise much faster than we can speak it. We can usually do it at almost twice the pace very easily. Melissa: It brings another point of communication. A good team member and a good team lead [...]. People need to know you’re supporting them. That’s what I [...]. But I was thinking about it, we did a lot of team-building last year. We hired [...] consultants to come in, and one thing I’ve learned about myself was delivery of email. Don’t stand [...] similar. Send [...] information and what the fact is, what the need is, send it to me in a delivery form. If you have team members and that you’re on a call today and the podcast, I think it’s really important to know your style, what you want. They also said that I was sending the exact [...] that said, “Well, I send it after the company email and no one responds,” and they said, “Send me a few of those.” The guy came back and said, “You’re not asking for anything. You’re sending information but you’re not asking.” “Okay, I need this back but [...]” It’s not that we do a campaign to get you. This is where’s the call-to-action. [...] entrepreneur and you’re on the show today and you want to learn. Ask somebody from the outside to come in and analyze your style and your teams and they’ll help give you tools. I’ve done that. I’m always learning. Jason: One of the hacks that I learned when I worked at Hewlett-Packard is that we were told to have certain subject lines if we were sending emails. If we needed some sort of response, you always had to say, “ACTION REQ’D:” at the beginning of the subject line in all caps. So, we would do ACTION REQ’D: if there’s an action required, or FYI was for your information only, you don’t need to do anything on it. So, there was kind of this code with subject lines. Now, I’m beyond email. I don’t even look at my email. If anybody emails me, I’m not going to probably see it. My assistant handles all of that for me because I don’t like email. I don’t want to communicate through email. So, I set up a system in which somebody else can go with that and she just tells me the four or five emails I need to deal with and the other 100 or 200 I get a day are [...] somebody else. Melissa: She’s a very good communicator and she is very responsive. If she doesn’t get a response, she page me again, making sure and not [...] very positive way. She’s patient, when I’m really busy, I’ll be a couple of days [...] she’s right back checking in with me. You’ve got someone watching your back and helping you grow, I’m sure. Jason: Oh yeah. It’s a huge help and that’s the thing is with hiring, I think one of the big constraints of those with entrepreneurs is this myth that if I have somebody else do it, it won’t be done as well. It’s such an egotistical thing that people need to get over. This belief that nobody will be as good as me. As long as somebody believes that, it’s true. They make it true and they create a situation which they’ll never be able to offload things. But I can speak with total confidence that every single person on my team is better at what they do than myself. They’re all better at what they do. India, way better at email than me. I don’t want to deal with email. I’m short with emails, I don’t pay attention, I miss things. Email’s not my thing. Melissa: [...] going back to the strength of the team and knowing your strength as the owner/CEO of your company and knowing my strength. You put me in a room with 200 people, you put me in a room with 1000 people, I try to meet every one of them. I know that my strength in the world growing my business, is to be the face of the business, to be in the field. I was in a class this morning. I’ve been taking classes at the local university on hiring teams and developing teams. Yesterday, I took a great workshop at Dominican University from a [...] a little bit about,job descriptions, position statements, and what’s the end results. They really teach us to have things in place and what our expectation is. So I’m always taking courses to try and figure out how can I be better at things. I’m never going to be the techie person that knows how to set everything up. I hand it to my son. I don’t have to be, right? He’s 31 years old. I can hand it to Matt and say, “Matt, I don’t understand this. My phone is doing something. Here, can you just fix it?” I can hand it to Christine and she’s going to help me. So just not trying to waste time, I [...] come at me. And don’t forget, part of [...] today is also life balance. Being able to turn it off, take care of ourselves because we have a good team. Jason: I think the more that an entrepreneur focuses on self-care, the more they have to give to their team and the lower the pressure noises. One of things I’ve noticed with entrepreneurs is that when our pressure noise gets high—it can be high in property management or in any business, but we deal with a lot as business owners—all of the worst attributes you share about business owners come out. People could perceive us as controlling or angry or frustrated because we get into this preloaded state where we’re in a stress response. If you lower the pressure noise for an entrepreneur, our genius comes out. Our best attributes come out. The visionary comes out. We’re able to see the future. We’re able to make decisions about things. If an entrepreneur does not have the team that they are in love with right now, then they’re not the person yet that should be running it. That’s the sad truth. They haven’t become that person yet, that can have a team, that instead of them having feeling like they are trying to control, it’s instead a team that they’re able to just inspire. Whenever we fail to inspire, we always control and we get into that stressful place where we’re trying to manipulate and get our team to do stuff and we’re trying to force KPIs down their throat or trying to push them to do things because we feel like, “Why can’t me team just do what I need them to do?” We shift into a calm space of, “What does my team need from me in order to be as successful as possible so they can keep helping me the way that they’ve been helping me?” and that’s a much more comfortable place to be. It’s a calm, quiet workplace. Melissa: I actually have never been accused of… I don’t yell, I’m a very calm-natured person, I deal with and respect boundaries, so I’m very good about how would that person feel if they were in my seat, how are they want to be treated. I do that a lot. I know their personal. Something’s going on. You want to know if something’s going on, it’s not always about business. Those people that have lives [...] out the door. So, I’m really in-tune with that. I called someone in yesterday and said, “Look, I can tell something’s going on. You just not coming work with that bright smile. What can I do to help?” So, even though I’m not downstairs, still sense the energy and pay really good attention. I try to make sure they know that I really care and I do care. The other thing is really working with an outside business consultant. Don’t get stuck. Have somebody come in and help build your team by doing team building. We had a lot of fun doing team building last year at the end of the year in October. Last year in October, we went out and went off site, we prepared everything so we can all leave, and we had one person [...] kind of helped out while we work on all day. We worked on what I think the success in my company is very strongly if we’re not communicating with each other, and we’re not respecting, getting along, and taking our own blinders off from our busy property management day, then the outside world is getting that same message. So, if I’m not really happy doing my job as a property manager and I’m not having a good day because my team members not [...] and the other team members not doing something, that equals out to the public and that’s when one of those one-star reviews come in. You can ask the team to let them know they’re supportive with each other, give them the tools, working with that, and let them get to know each other and [...] each other, that goes out to customer service. Jason: There’s this great book by a gentleman. I believe his name is Steve Sims and the book’s called Bluefishing. He basically talks about how his whole goal with his team members or even with clients that he wants to work with is they have to pass the chug test. It’s like, “Would I want to have a beer with this person?” and it’s just a simple gut check to say, “Do I like this person? Do I enjoy being around this person? Does this person makes me feel safe? Do I feel comfortable?” because if anybody on your team doesn’t make you feel comfortable and you’re always worried about them or you’re concerned about them or there’s some sort of weird disconnect in rapport between the two of you, they’re adding to you pressure and noise. I think that it is important to like your team, to actually like them. Melissa: [...] company. Sometimes when there’s one person who’s not [...] team, they go and they grab other people. Jason: Oh yeah, they’re a cancer. Melissa: You have to be really careful with that. But I really [...] week after our last retreat work and that was they wanted. For somebody [...] it’s not the most positive [...], so we started a Positively Prandi board. We got that big board [...] coffee and our tea is, and people are [...], “Congratulations on your three-year anniversary.” We write riddles. [...] while the sun is shining now, how happy we are today. And that doesn’t cost money. It’s just a little more positivity and always share a five-star review. We always celebrate a good review, and if it’s not [...] we could get there. That’s another [...] about growing your business is really you have to work on your teams, inside the walls of your team before you can really start wanting to grow and double or triple in size. Jason: You have mentioned early on that you make sure you have this morning connection with your team. My team’s virtual and we’ve done the same thing. I felt like it’s absolutely critical that you get FaceTime with your entire team. Those that have virtual teams that are listening, or virtual team members, one of the things that we do at DoorGrow is we do a morning huddle. It’s 15 minutes, we set it at a weird hour so that people know that time matters. We set it at a weird time, like it’s not at a half-hour mark or hour mark and people have to show up for that. It’s 15 minutes, we just share stats openly in the company, here’s how much revenue we’ve made so far this month, here’s how many people on our Facebook group, all that different stats that matter, and then we do ‘caught being awesome,’ when we say, “Anybody catch anybody being awesome in the last day?” Sometimes it’s a little awkward if it’s a small huddle and not everybody showed up and people are like [...]. But I always comes up with somebody that we can point out or highlight somebody. Melissa: [...] for us at Prandi Property Management, I have a weekly team meeting. I get copies of the notes so I can look at what’s going on with the teams, and the at the very bottom it says, “Did you write a thank you note to them?” because still old-fashioned handwritten thank you notes go a long way. We have Prandi custom beautiful notes cards, it works in all industries, and who did you thank today? It’s similar to what you’re saying because a team, I like that. I want to go back and say that, “Who did you catch being awesome today?” That’s kind of we’re doing to Positively Prandi board, but in this case, acknowledging their credibility at the end of it, the weekly team meeting notes [...] really good [...] everybody’s formats is the same, so we’re looking at the same numbers, same things, and when it says, “Oh, that’s so nice,” they wrote the gardener a thank you note. They wrote the plumber a thank you note. They wrote [...] a thank you note for the inconvenience. We get a bunch of $5 Starbucks cards, we [...] and say, “Have a cup of coffee on us. Cheers to you.” Just saying thank you is really nice. Jason: I love it. In our huddle, at the very end we just go around and ask each person, “Are you stuck on anything? Really simple, is there anything you’re stuck on?” and there’s always somebody that’s stuck. When we didn’t used to do that and we would just have a weekly meeting or just throughout the day, it makes me wonder what were they doing when they were stuck all of these previous times because there’s always somebody stuck on something. “Oh yeah, this client had this question. I didn’t know how to deal with this, or this.” We can tackle those things really quickly and if it’s something that takes a lot of time, we’ll just say, “All right. Let’s schedule a meeting for that.” But we just tackle that in our huddle so everybody feels unstuck, which is also helpful. Melissa: It’s not just stuck. I myself have made mistakes in this business, that we have aha moments as well. I can say, “Well, is there anything you want to share that you have an aha moment that you might teach us how to do our job better?” [...] offers I do like I’ll start an example. I’ll say, “Matt, my son, now is the Business Development Manager, who is out there in the field. Sometimes we get three, four, five, six clients a day,” who knows how many are coming. They’re coming fast and furious because we’ve been there a long time. He’ll say, “Hey, can you take care of this duplex? The co-owner’s called in and they really wanted a response today, but I got so many things on my plate. Can you handle that?” which is okay because I know how to do it. Only, he gave it to me at 10 in the morning and I didn’t make that connection with that client until two in the afternoon and it was too late. He had already hired someone. I can use that as my team example as my aha moment. What I should have done the moment he gave it to me, I should have stopped, I should have looked at what is it important, not checking my Facebook, my email and everything else. I should have made that a priority. Because I didn’t, he signed up with another management company. I want to share that as the owner because what will happen next time is I’ll make it a priority. I try to [...] those aha moments and life lessons. What can we do, how can we have done it differently, and we had different results, because we can all [...]. Jason: We do a weekly team meeting. In our weekly team meeting, we share wins from the previous week, personal or business. That gives the team members opportunity each Monday to share, “What were your wins for last week?” so that we can point her out. As entrepreneurs, a lot of us are economically driven, so if we take a DISC profile and turn on all the insight, we’ll see that we have a pretty high economic score typically. The mistake we make is that we assume everybody else likes money as much as us. Look at that economic score in your team members, those that are listening, if the economic score is high, bonuses work great for them. If the economic score is low, they want recognition. Most of my team members, that’s all of my team members with the exception of people that are involved in sales, usually their economic score is low, which means they want recognition. So, creating opportunities in these meetings where they get to show what they’ve done the previous week, where they get to show that they’ve had wins and we look through our objectives for the week, and they get to say, “Yes, I got these all done,” this is an opportunity for them to feel recognized by the whole team. I find that that increases motivation and accountability, significantly. Melissa: And I think it’s interesting because you and I didn’t rehearse this and we didn’t talk about what was most important, but there’s a lot of similarities in what we’re doing as entrepreneurs, owners, and visionaries. I think that’s really important for the audience to hear that some of these things that we’re talking about are simple, and it can be done by anybody. Jason: What I’ve noticed in business and life is I’m just a student and a fan of what works. That’s just what I get excited about. And really, every system, all the different coaches and mentors I’ve worked with, they so many similarities because truth and/or reality is what works and everything gravitates towards that. You’ve been in business for 37 years. You’re going to have figured out a lot of things that don’t work. What that leaves less on the table is a lot of knowledge about what works. I think also I’m very willing to fail. I’ve had lots and lots of failures. I think DoorGrow’s been built on thousands of failures and that’s how we learned. I think that goes also to my team because I’ve had so many failures. I think also I’m very conscious of the fact that my team needs to be allowed to screw up and fail. They need to feel safe failing. If they don’t feel safe failing, then they’ll never be able to learn. Melissa: Or they could hide it. We don’t want them to hide it. Jason: Exactly. They become hiders. They start hiding stuff from you the first time they screw something up and they feel reprimanded or shamed or put down, they’re going to hide that from you forever. They’re going to hide everything in the future and then having team of hiders is absolutely catastrophic to the growth of the company. Melissa: That’s true. I think that always attending workshops and now we have things online, you talk about being able to teach people like you’re doing right now, that is great. I think just because you have 10 in the business or 20 years or in my case, you never stop learning. And I think it’s really important for people to use their resources. I love to read. People can share books. They can go on your website and your Facebook page, and share a good book, and share stuff they’re learning. I find that people soak it up. I love to speak and teach. I love to walk in a room and share my knowledge. There’s not one person I’ve ever said, “No, I absolutely will not share that with you.” I usually, “No problem. You want that form, let me send it to you.” You’re going to laugh, I taught a class in Palm Springs. I’m not paperless and I’m proud of it, because I’m not and people love it. They’re going to be people that still touch things like I do. Let’s give them [...] and eventually that does change. My son doesn’t print [...] anything, but I do. So, we have to have a diversity and we have to be able to give people the tools they need to be the best whatever the way it is in the year 2019 or the way we used to do it. When I first got in business, the screen was literally the size of a small [...]. We didn’t have cell phones. Technology is good. I think I’ve been able to travel, I’ve been able to leave my business. Now, I check my email but I schedule my time. I’m going to the beach because I’m sitting on a beach in Hawaii. I’ll check my information but I don’t check it like I do when I’m sitting on my desk working. Time management it important. I allow myself a lot of time because even last week, I was running hard. I was struggling early in the morning, facing the company, lots of meetings, going to Rotary, going to community events, starting the morning with my classes over at the university or whatever I’m doing, and I finish at nine o’clock at night. So, I just take it to Matt because I was going the State of the City Dinner with the Chamber of Commerce. By Thursday last week, I hit a wall and I was tired. So you have to find the balance. Everybody, not just the entrepreneur or owner, of how you’re doing with your whole life balance because you have to keep yourself well in order to be a good leader. Jason: Absolutely. My recently added for our C hackers, a health secrets training, simply because I found that health is the number one thing that impacts the productivity. An excuse that we get from entrepreneurs a lot was, “Oh, I just don’t have time.” They have almost doubled the amount of time if they’re taking care of themselves properly. Their brain is just that much more effective. Melissa: If you go to yoga for an hour, you’re not on your phone, you’re not on your email. Jason: You’re right. You’re disconnected. Melissa: You [...] can read the phone in your car. You just take your phone if you’re going out in an easy hike, if you’re going distance in that thing, but to be able to go and listen to music, too, on [...], people say sound and meditation. If you can do music meditation and it works really well. I just spent some time with a good friend in [...] and we had so much fun playing our playlist and singing the songs, and then how did we remember the words to this song? But your mind is doing so much. What music does is it kind of steals your heart and soul. If you ever are going through something, get yourself to music and let the music take you to a different [...] and property management. That happens a lot. I always tell my staff, “Get out from your desk, move or walk around the block, change your environment. Grab your iPhone, put on a song and walk around the block singing the words. It changes your whole intake of how you’re going to treat the next customer or the next co-worker. Jason: I love it. Let’s connect this to science and here is why that stuff is so effective. I’m a huge audiophile, I love music, I had a band in college, I bought [...] songs. I love music, but when you play instruments, when you play music—there’s videos on this—your entire brain lights up. Both sides of the brain are like fireworks when you’re playing an instrument or really engaged in music. When you connect your right and left hemispheres in your brain, when those sides of your brain are both firing, it significantly lower stress. In fact, I went and did EMDR therapy on the recommendation of my business coach, for a year. EMDR therapy is an eye movement therapy. The idea behind it is they use it to eliminate PTSD in soldiers and stuff like this. As entrepreneurs, my coach is saying, “You have some PTSD, Jason. Let’s be honest. You guys deal with a lot of stress. You’ve got some of this. Go get an EMDR therapy and talk about you assistant, they quit or talk about this, get this stuff taken cared of. What is cool is that EMDR therapy is based on the idea that there is bilateral stimulation, so stimulating both sides of the brain back and forth while tuned in to an idea that causes stress or PTSD or some sort of issue. I’m not making light, by the way, of those who have legit PTSD, but the stress that we have as entrepreneurs, it will tone that down and it kills that. It helps you see it with a fresh perspective and helps correct and eliminate that emotional stress response. Here’s what’s magical about walking. Walking is bilateral stimulation. Exercising increases the stress response in the body. It just does. That’s part of exercise. But walking oxygenates the body but does not increase the stress response. It actually lowers it because it’s causing bilateral stimulation. Left, right, your body keeps moving, and each step causes bilateral stimulation. So, if you have anxiety, if you have a stressful call or whatever, going for a walk until that goes down is really magical and amazing. So I go for a walk in the evenings if I had a stressful day. I start my day usually a lot of times with a walk, making sure that I walk around. It help digestion, it seriously helps cognitive function by getting your brain to lower its stress response. It’s like a serious hack and walking sounds so simple. Music more than any other thing can directly impact emotions. That’s why in movies, they’ll manipulate your emotions using the score of the movie because it makes you feel what’s going on. So, if you want to change your feeling, you can use music because different songs can help you lean into sorrow if you need to feel that sorrow, music can help you lean into positivity or shift out of... Melissa: Brings back memories. But [...], somebody having a bad day because in property management we done have all positive days. And sometimes, especially because where we are now in Northern California, we had a lot of rain. [...] when we were getting ready to set up, it’s not really our friend. Property management, rain, leaks, putting people up at hotels, you’ve got a lot coming at you and nobody wants to be displaced, especially if it’s the holiday season, we have bad weather and it rains then. So, I [...] “Okay, what have you done for a time out? What are you doing? Because you need to go have a time out. Just go.” We do fun Fridays, ice cream socials, aloha Fridays because we are actually [...] together in an office [...] downstairs, so we do see each other everyday. I may not but the staff works together [...] and works in an office. Having seen this which Christine’s been really good about it. Matt, last Friday [...] his dog is a new rescue. She’s adorable. Her name’s Mia and she’s a very [...]. She’s a very good dog and he said, “Hey, do you mind if I bring her out in the open? I don’t have any appointments.” People actually brought some really [...] good, fun Friday and made them feel really good by having a dog there. Who knew? Jason: Almost like one of those service animals. Melissa: Yeah. I was waiting for his to say, “Mom, I can bring the dog to work because this is a service animal.” I said it was okay. Jason: Yeah. I love the idea. Walk and talk is my own personal therapy. If I have something I need to talk through, I talk to somebody about it while I’m walking. I’ll just walk around. It’s magic. These are all really cool ideas. Melissa, it sounds like you have a phenomenal team. You’ve got a wealth of knowledge. For those that are listening, that maybe are struggling to achieve their growth, they’re really stuck in a rut, they’re having a difficult time maybe with their team, they’re just having trouble seeing over the weeds, so to speak, what sort of advice would you give them, maybe a first step to take, some step towards all the [...] Melissa: I would say don’t be afraid to [...]. Pick up the phone and call another property manager. Call you, check-in with you. People forget the touch of the voice, too, and someone knowing. Most people have been through the same thing. When you [...] the NARPM family or you or your users together share one thing that’s going on, it’s amazing when I see the post that goes on in your Facebook page and the solutions people are willing to offer. But sometimes picking up the phone and saying, “Look, I’m having a really hard time with this. I have a client doing it.” I’ll tell you to fire them. But if you have [...] a really hard time, then maybe you just need to [...] another professional. NARPM has over 5000 members. Don’t think you’re going to take the world on your own. If you’re going to grow, you have to be willing to change, to be willing to have a mentor, somebody you can lean on. You got to use the research that you’re offering as a national vendor and the research that you’re offering, we have to use those resources so that we can actually learn to grow because you’re going to give us tips from the outside of property management looking in at what we’re doing. You’re already doing that just sharing with me. So, if you’re willing to make the change and to reach out for growth ideas and ask how to implement because I’ve already done it. I’m willing to share. Why reinvent the wheel? Jason: I love it. You mentioned be willing to change, find mentors, reach out and get a mentor, reach out to other property managers. I think the crux of all these things, kind of energetically that you’re talking about here, underneath all of this, I think a property manager or anyone listening to the show, they need to recognize that the power being able to do these things come from vulnerability. It takes a certain amount of vulnerability as an entrepreneur to say, “I have a problem and I need support.” Whether you are reaching out to a mentor, it takes humility or vulnerability in order to be willing to go out and learn more like you’ve talked about. I think sometimes we want to put on this facade or we think we need to be the one that we’re always okay. I think it’s okay to not be okay. I think there’s power in that and I think there’s connection in that if we’re willing to be vulnerable, because I don’t have all good days. I have sent messages to my business coach or my mentors and saying, “Hey, I’m really struggling. This is hard for me dealing with this.” Sometimes, it’s all we need is just to be able to tell somebody that and acknowledge and be vulnerable, but I think when we’re vulnerable with others. Those that are inside the DoorGrow Club Facebook group, I encourage you to be willing. Lots of people have been willing to share vulnerably like, “Hey, I’m dealing with the situation. I’m in over my head,” or, “I don’t know what to do with this,” or, “I’m stressed out and it’s been a really a rough day. What do you guys do or recommend?” or, “Could somebody talk to me on the phone today?” I think there are so many people that because the way we get momentum as entrepreneurs, the way we get fulfilled, is by giving it to others. Melissa: Helping others. That’s right. I was national president of NARPM. My team was sharing a vision and I’m still sharing a vision. Our visions can open up a lot of doors and windows for a lot [...]. Jason: There’s nothing that’s been more powerful for me when I’m having a rough time in business or as an entrepreneur or in life than to reach out and be able to help or support a client or help somebody else. I look for those opportunities when I’m stressed [...] somebody an opportunity to support you because you’re helping them by being vulnerable and allowing them to do that. Melissa: That works with our staff, our team members, to reach out and say, “Okay, I’m actually having a really hard time. I’m overwhelmed, I’m tired, I’m going to take [...] refill my bucket up. [...] keep that to your team. They’re only human, they understand. Jason: Absolutely. That’s the entire team’s job. My team’s job is to lower my pressure and noise. That is their whole purpose for having a job. But they can’t do that unless I’m honest. Melissa: Yeah and it’s working well. Jason: Yeah, it does. It works really well. The bigger my team gets, the bigger my company gets, the easier my life gets. I know that sounds backwards for a lot of people, especially those in the 200–400 doors sand trap because as they’re approaching the 400–500 units, their life gets crazy and hectic and it’s probably because they’ve built the team the wrong way. They built the system in which it’s transactional leadership and they’re throwing tasks at people. Everyone has to come to them for feedback instead of giving them objectives and trusting them. It’s something that takes work to shift out of. Melissa: It goes back to where we started [...]. The key to success [...] Jason: Full circle. Get out of the way. Sometimes we can’t see it. As entrepreneurs, I think no matter how evolved we are or how effective we are or how much coaching we’ve had, we always have our own blind spots and we always need that outside perspective. I need it all the time and your team can provide some of that if you ask them for honest feedback. I ask my team all the time like, “Hey, I’m thinking of sending this email out to all our clients,” and my writer, Adam, who’s very diplomatic, will say, “Let we reword that for you.” Melissa: That’s a good point. [...] I do that, too. If I’m about to send an email, or I end up firing a client or put them on a ‘this isn’t working,’ someone else on your team to say, “How does it sound as if you’re just receiving it?” That’s it. That’s a good point, too. Rely on that for that. Jason: This has been an awesome conversation. I’m sure we could talk for hours. It’s just really fun to connect with you. I appreciate you coming on the show. What takeaway do you want to leave people with and how can they get in touch with you if you like them to do that? Melissa: I would say to rely on the vendors yourself. You light up when we started the very beginning of our just getting ready for the podcast. When you started getting ready to do this, to share with your listeners, you light up. I think we need to rely on our resource with you and what you can bring to us property managers. I think that the other takeaway would be to be really in-tune with ourselves to know when we’ve had enough to take that break, and then to really take a hard look and maybe today or tomorrow, go down and really be grateful, and come within gratitude to thank the people we work with everyday. Together, I would say we can make a difference. So, keep that attitude and really respect for your team, the clients, the people you work around. Jason: Love it. How can people find out more about Melissa Prandi or get in touch? Melissa: My email probably is best. I am an emailer. It’s melissa@prandiprop.com. I’m great with [...] resources, I’ve written two books, and I love to share ideas. Let’s just keep going. Let’s keep growing and making our industry bigger, better, and more respected as we all become better at property management. Jason: Absolutely. I fully believe in the philosophy of the I mindset that the industry’s number one challenge right now is not your competition. It’s awareness. The industry’s second number one challenge is just perception of the industry as a whole. By helping your local competitors level up, you’re helping yourself. You’re helping the whole industry. Melissa: Raising the bar up to what one’s expecting the quality of what we’re providing out there, people on rental property. Jason: Absolutely and good property management can change the world. You guys get to have such a massive ripple effect. You’re impacting hundreds of thousands of tenants, homeowners and their families, and that ripple effect keeps going and that’s big. Melissa: I’ve seen how much that actually NARPM complement people, how much we give back into our community because we do that every year at charity. We’re giving back in more ways than just that. Jason: Absolutely. The ripple effect is big and I’m grateful that really awesome property managers like yourself allow me the opportunity to be part of that. That’s inspiring and exciting for me. All right, Melissa. It’s been great having you on the show and we’ll have to have you back soon. Melissa: Absolutely. See you in NAPA, the [...] NARPM conference [...]. Jason: We’ll see you in NAPA. All right. Melissa: See you soon. Thank you. Jason: Okay. Bye-bye. All right that was a phenomenal interview. Really fun to talk about that stuff, all things I’m very passionate about and Melissa is obviously very passionate about as well. If this episode was interesting or useful to you, please give us a feedback in iTunes if you’re listening there. We would love if you like and subscribe to our channel on YouTube. That would be awesome if you’re watching us there. If you’re seeing this on Facebook, then share it. We appreciate you. Make sure you get inside of our awesome community for property management entrepreneurs, which is the DoorGrow Club. You can get to that by going to doorgrowclub.com. By joining, we’re going to give you some free takeaways including The Fee Bible, a list of good vendors you should be using, that are the best in the industry, that get the best feedback in our group, and we’re going to give you some other free gifts if you provide your email when you sign up for that group. Make sure you get inside the DoorGrow Club Facebook group. At some point, you may want to reach out to our team and talk to us or myself about growing your business. If you’re feeling stagnant or stuck, or you feel like you could use some additional support, that’s where we do at DoorGrow. Until next time, everybody, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet, in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today’s episode on our blog at doorgrow.com. To get notified of future events and news, subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.

In this episode of The Dr. Hedberg Show, I interview Melissa Gallico about fluoride.  We talked about where fluoride comes from, why it was added to our water supply, how to know if your water is fluoridated, how to filter fluoride, other sources of fluoride, the fluoride-acne connection, the fluoride-thyroid connection, how to detoxify fluoride with iodine, and how to petition your local legislators to remove fluoride from your water supply.  I was not aware of the fluoride-acne connection so this was an enlightening podcast that everyone should listen to who has acne or a thyroid issue. Dr. Hedberg: Well, welcome everyone to the "Dr. Hedberg Show." This is Dr. Hedberg, and really looking forward to the interview today. I'm talking to Melissa Gallico. And Melissa is the author of the book "The Hidden Cause of Acne: How Toxic Water Is Affecting Your Health and What You Can Do About It," and also a book called "F is For Fluoride: A Feasible Fairy Tale for Free Thinkers 15 and Up." She's a former military intelligence officer, Fulbright Scholar and intelligence specialist at the Federal Bureau of Investigation where she instructed classes for FBI analysts at Quantico, and provided analytics support for National Security Investigations. She graduated with honors from Georgetown University, and she has a master's degree from the University of St Andrews in Scotland. So, Melissa, welcome to the show.Melissa: Thank you so much for having me. Dr. Hedberg: Yeah. So I heard you on the...first I heard you on the "15-minute Matrix" podcast, and was really interested in what you were talking about. I've studied fluoride a little bit over the years, but just mainly related to how it affects the thyroid. But why don't we just start out with some basics regarding fluoride and fluoridated water? So can you talk about why fluoride was added to the water? Why did they do that, how did it happen, and how can people tell if they have fluoridated water? Melissa: Sure. So in the mid-20th century, dentists started...well, originally, they noticed that fluoride caused brown stains on teeth, and it's a condition called dental fluorosis. So that's where they started studying fluoride and its effect on tooth enamel. And eventually, they started developing a theory that, you know, too much fluoride is bad for your tooth enamel, it causes this cosmetic staining, but maybe a little bit of fluoride is actually good for your tooth enamel and makes it stronger and prevents cavities. So that's the theory behind why they add it to the water supply today. They've been doing it for over 70 years. And they just think of it as adjusting the fluoride level to, like, this optimal dose that helps prevent cavities. And that's what I always assumed it was, I always drank fluoridated water, and I used fluoride in my toothpaste, and I had the treatments at the dentist. I never really thought about it. But when I got older and I realized that fluoride was affecting my health in negative ways, I looked into it more. And I looked into the history and realized that behind that very nice story that I believed and that I, you know, told myself and just assumed was true, there's actually a very deep pollution scandal there. And people are always surprised when I talk about pollution and fluoride, because we've forgotten that fluoride was the leading form of air pollution at the time the science was being developed in the mid-20th century. It's a common element in the earth's crust. So when we started these large-scale mining operations for things like aluminum or phosphate, these companies were emitting just toxic amounts of fluoride into the atmosphere, and it was causing a lot of lawsuits. So the fluoride would go into the atmosphere, it would end up on the grass, poisoning cattle, poisoning crops, and the people that live nearby as well. So those lawsuits led to, you know, these big powerful corporations hired lawyers,

Hello and welcome!Today’s episode is called: “How To Get Comfortable With Being Vulnerable - Interview with Author Melissa Venable.”Melissa published her first book “Finding FabYOUlous” last year and she joined me to talk about the book itself and also to talk about the process of writing and publishing.This interview is gold for an aspiring writer...!If you’d prefer to watch the video version of this interview, you can do that at this link: http://www.mymessageislove.com/blog-articles/interview-with-author-melissa-venableEnjoy!********AOIFE:Hi everyone. I'm Aoife O’Leary and I am the creator of MyMessageIsLove.com and My Message Is Love is a writer's website. It’s for you if you want to write a book, if you're already writing, if need editing or copywriting services. Also it's got life musings in it because: all the good stuff!I have a special guest with me today. This is Melissa Venable and she is a writer and she just published her first book, “Finding FabYOUlous”. I'm going to read the subtitle because it's so cool I want to get it right: “A self-help with sass guide to finding, celebrating and capitalizing on the fabulousness that makes you YOU!So, thank you for being here, Melissa, and huge congratulations on your book!MELISSA:Well, thank you! I'm excited to be here to tell you all more about it!AOIFE:Absolutely! So let's start! Tell us about the book and tell us what it's about and who it's for and I have a whole load of other questions too…MELISSA:It’s called “Finding Fabulous” but with y-o-u instead of “u” in the normal spelling and the reason I did that is because this book is all about helping the reader get back to the person they were truly created to be before society and the world and everybody else, you know, with their input started piling all of their roles and their desires on the person.So it's just peeling back those layers and getting back to the person that you were truly created to be. Finding your true passions, your true desires and bringing those to life and letting them do their work in your life and in the world, because I feel like when we do that that's when we're going to be able to have the most impact and make the biggest difference in our families and our own personal lives, but in the world at large.So that's what it's all about.AOIFE:Yes! I know from reading this book that you have a lot of your own life stories within it, so did you have this idea for the book a little while ago or many years ago or was it recent?MELISSA: You know I, gosh, that was one of the biggest challenges with the book - was bringing kind of my own life stories into it because I mean, I'm not gonna lie there's some yuck in there, you know? I mean, things that are not real pretty to uncover and to talk about and write about and then to have other people read about.But at the same time I've also learned that my biggest messes have turned into my greatest messages, you know, and my tests have been my testimony, so that's why I always refer to myself. I'm like, when I'm introduced to something I'm like “from trainwreck to trainer” because I've been the train wreck - I know what it's like to have a life without control and that's hard and that you struggle, but I've come out of that and I'm living a truly fabulous life now.But I'm also nothing special. if I can do it anybody can do it, so that's what I wanted to make sure that this book – that message that it got out: That if you've gone through stuff – as we all have - you can turn it around and you can get back to who you were truly meant to be. You can make right that situation and have a really fabulous life as well.So, I've had the idea to write the book for probably 4 to 5 years, but I had the idea but didn’t necessarily have the guts. So it took a little while kind of processing through some of that. It's like, you know, if I'm going to do this I’m going to have to be willing to share you know the train wreck moments so people can truly understand that I have been there done. My thing now is “been there, done that, wrote the book!”It takes a little bit of courage to kind of, you know, be willing to put yourself out there and be vulnerable in that way. So the idea was there probably 4 or 5 years ago but the last 18 months I really got serious about like, “No, you know what? I am going to do this. I think it can help people and so I'm going to do this.”So, yeah, it's been percolating for a while…AOIFE:Did you have a particular reader in mind when you were creating your book?MELISSA:Yeah, you know I think anybody will love my book, and I mean, I hope that's true, but really, the demographic I really hope to hit was probably in my mind. My ideal reader was somebody who is maybe midlife or maybe not quite that, but 35 to 55. Somebody in that age range that was going through some transitions in her life, who was thinking, “You know, there's got to be more to it than what I'm doing right now.”Maybe feeling just kind of a little bit of unease, you know? Maybe they're going through something hard and they need some hope and they need some strategies to get through that, or maybe they're just feeling a little discontent, like, “there's got to be more to life than what I'm doing now every day, day in and day out.” So I think that that's really who my book is geared to and I think who will benefit the most from it.AOIFE:Did you feel that writing with a particular kind of sense, rather than a particular person in mind, but a sense, did that change the direction or your the way you?MELISSA: It did, it just gave me clarity. I wasn't trying to write to the masses, you know. This book is not going to appeal to my 19-year-old son, though he'sread it, to give him credit. He has read it. But, you know, it’s probably not his thing.When I thought about the person that I truly wanted to speak into the heart of: a woman, maybe 40, maybe feeling a little discontent or having been going through something difficult - a divorce, a career change, something like that. So, the person I wanted to most give hope to - when I thought about that person it really helped me dial in the message and get a lot more clear on how I wanted to deliver that. So I think that was hugely beneficial and when I would start to get off track or feel like I was kind of going down a rabbit hole, I would start to bring myself back to who that person was and who I was writing to, and that would really help me get back on the on the right course for the book.AOIFE:So you had the idea for the book and then it was percolating in your mind and over the last 18 months was really when you knuckled down to do the work. So was there something that happened in the middle there? Or a decision point or what inspired you?MELISSA: Yeah I mean, I kind of think it was a midlife crisis. I turned 47 and something about turning 47 - I mean not like 47 is some magicalnumber - but it's like something in my head click, “Oh my gosh, I'm3 years away from being 50 and if I am ever gonna do some of these things that I say I want to do I need to getcrackin’”.And also I kind of hit a point in my life where … In mybook I talk about my struggle with an eating disorder, I talk about my struggle to get out of an emotionally and physically abusive marriage. I talk about those things. But I'm at a point in my life now that those things are far enough behind me that I can talk about them without the pain and without the angst that they bring up and in a way that I think is helpful now.Once I got to that point I was like, “Okay, now it's time. I worked through that and I'm beyond that now, so I think now is the time that I could take what I learned going through all that and package it in a way that can be helpful to other people - even if they are in obviously very different situations.”I just think it took a little while. I had to kind of get past that and heal from some of that on my own, so that then I could help others kindof go through that process too. In the last 18 months, I was like, “I'm there. I'm fine. My life is on a good trajectory now. I love my cat. Now is the time and I'm gonna be 50 in 3 years! Get crack-a-lackin' on this, so I think that it's just a kind of a culmination of those things coming together all at once.AOIFE:How was it to write these personal things and share these personal stories- because I have to say that's something that I still shy away from – and also, did you set boundaries around that for yourself or were there places that you were not willing to go? How did it all feel?MELISSA: I think, sure, there are probably still things that are not in my book and those are probably just things that are just going to be with me, you knowthey're mine. I didn't really think some of those would be beneficial to the reader anyway so that doesn't need to be included.I did have some boundaries of what I was and was not willing to share, but when I approached it I just kept thinking, “Yeah, this is hard. This was hard stuff that I went through and these steps I had to take and the therapy that I went through and all those things that I had to go through in order to have this experience.”I'm like if it's helpful, though, if it has the potential to help somebody elsethen I want to be able to include that. I had to get comfortable with being vulnerable because there is stuff in there that it's like, “Woooooo…. Yeah… now my parents have read this book!!”Yeah, but you have to be willing to be vulnerable and be open about it. I just kept thinking in my head - the thing that kept me on track – is if I feel like this is genuinely gonna have the opportunity to benefit somebody else, then I want to include it, so that just the kind of spin that I had the entire time.But yeah, it was a little hard sometimes, but now look the book is out and I'm getting feedback I am just so glad that I included some of those parts because I feel like those are the things people are coming to talk to me about those are the things that they bring up – those harder moments are what touched them and what have really inspired and helpedthem. So I'm glad that I included those.AOIFE: Yeah it's our humanity. Even if the circumstances are different, we all understand pain and understand those feelings of really being at your lowest.MELISSA:Right, right.AOIFE:So just to shift it a little bit… what was your writing process like on aday-to-day basis?MELISSA: I wish I could say that I'm one of those people that you know jumpsoutta bed at 4 o'clock in the morning and writes for 3 hours. I'm not. Iwish it was. I'm not. I tend to be more productive at night - I'm a night owl by nature.AOIFE:Yeay! So am I!MELISSA: Oh, great! I’m glad to hear that. So, my mind tends to be more active at night, you know when the house is quiet, people are in bed. I can really focus and do my writing then. My process really was – I don't know that I had a process. My thing was I made myself write every single day.I say every single day but there were a couple times when my husband and I would go on a vacation and I didn't and there was one time when I had pneumonia and I was in bed and I was like “I can't! I can't even get out of bed, I’m not going to write.”But, barring those kinds of things, I made myself write every single day. There were some days where I would crank out an entire chapter and I'd be on a real roll. There were other days where it was a struggle just to get a paragraph, but nonetheless I would make myself sit down at thecomputer and write.I feel like that consistency was so important and I think the hardest part for me honestly every single day was just getting started - was just getting my butt in the chair and, you know, the keyboard there and actually to start to open the file and start typing. That was the hardest part. Once I got past that first sentence or two, then it got much easier, but just having the discipline and the consistency to write something every single day. Once I started the writing then I found that it usually it would start to flow. I'd get kind of in that, you know, that momentum going.So that was basically my process - nothing too super scientific or, you know, fascinating I guess, but just the consistency.AOIFE:So when you had your first draft written, what was your editing process from there through to the end? Were there multiple edits or did youhave BETA readers or what was best for you?MELISSA: Yes, yes and yes.I'll confess, so I at first, you know, never having done this before I was like “You know, my degree is in English, I know punctuation, I can edit this thing, no problem!” I did read it several times myself and I did learn that the problem withthat is that as the author I know what the book is supposed to say. I know what it's supposed to say. So when I read it in my head that's what I read, even though I might have two words mixed up or I might have a word missing or something. In my head I know what it's supposed to say so that's how I read it. That's why I think it's so crucial that you have somebody else read your book as well.Thankfully, I have a good friend who is a copy editor and she read it through and I will tell you that it was painful to get my pages backwith so much red on them. I'm like, “Wait, my degree is in English. I'm supposed to be good at this. What is all this red here for?” But it was very, very helpful.Then I did also have some BETA readers too and they would give me feedback, like, “Okay, you're kind of on a rabbit hole here… this is a little confusing” and they helped me tighten it up too.But, then again I read the thing also probably 17 bazillion times myself just trying to tweak it and get it to where I was really happy with it. So I do think no matter how good you think you are - and you are I'm sure you are - again my degree is in English, I'm supposed to know this stuff - It is so important to get another set of eyes I think on your materialbecause they will just catch things that you don't.I'm fortunate that the editor that I did have, again, was a friend of mine so she knows my voice she knows how I talk and how I present ineveryday life and it was really important to me that my book wasauthentic to that I wanted to sound like me. So she was able to read it with that kind of ear. She knew how I sounded anyway so she was able to do that, but she would catch when I would have “and and” in a sentencethat I somehow I didn't see or whatever. I didn’t catch those things. So it’s a little painful to have your pages come back to you with that much red on them but it's so, so helpful.AOIFE:I'm usually the person making the red marks!MELISSA: God bless you! I mean… I don’t like you for those reasons, but we need you so much! We need you so badly!AOIFE:So you decided to self-publish. Was that a decision you made from the get-go or did you consider traditional publishing or what was it aboutself-publishing that made you choose that?MELISSA: Okay, actually no. My original intention was to go traditional publishing and I had a publisher that I’d been talking with and was interested in the book. I was going down that path. The thing that just kept kind of sticking in my craw a little bit was like “Man” – and now I will say it was a small publishing - but still you know traditional publishing this like, that's always what you want, right?” But when I started going through the contracts looking at what they were presenting to me, I was like “Man”, I was gonna be doing a lotof work and writing this book and yet I was going to be making just very, very little on my book and yet I was still going to be expected to do so much of the marketing myself. The more I looked at that I was just like, “This doesn't really make sense to me.”So then I went - you know, I still kind of had that as an option but then Istarted looking around and I looked at some indie publishers, thepublisher where you can pay them and they'll take your pages and they'll turn it into a book. I was like, “Okay, well that would be easy… you know just give them my stuff and pay them”. Except for it's not so easy when you know that's $3,500 that they want to make your book into a book. So I was like, “Okay, I don't really want to do that.”But, I’m a big fan, I’m not sure if you’re familiar with her, but, I’m a big fan of Marie Forleo. She's a business guru and I just I love her, andshe's got MarieTV on YouTube, and one of her catchphrases that she always uses is: “Everything is figure-out-able” and I'm like, “Okay, if everything is figure-out-able, I should be able to figure out how to self publish this book, still have it look like a quality piece of work and professional. I should be able to figure this out. So I just set out to figure this out – and thanks to online courses and you know information I got off of Pinterest and all these different things, I was able to figure it out.It took me more time, you know, I mean obviously it took me time toresearch how to use Createspace, how to format my book properly, how to do all these things. I did hire someone to do my cover because I wanted that to look really good. So, you know, I just kind of went with that “everything is figure-out-able” and I figured it out.And because of that I now have a product that I'm proud of that looks great, I think, but I didn't have to pay somebody $3,500 to do it and I'mnot paying or somebody's not taking a huge cut of every book sale now because of that.Now, will I do that again? Probably. I mean, obviously, if one of the big publishers came knocking on my door, then we'll talk, but until that time I think that self-publishing is a real viable option for people. I thinkthat a lot of authors are realizing this and going that way now. So, don't think that you have to be traditionally published to have a quality piece of work nowadays. That's just not the case anymore.AOIFE:… and you can still get your books in libraries and in bookshops…MELISSA: also absolutelyAOIFE: Oh, are you a B-schooler?MELISSA: Not yes, but I think I'm going to be! Right now I am enrolled in acertification course for life coaching, so I mean, I'm getting a certificationfor that. As soon as that's done, my next thing is going to be B-School, so you know Marie Forleo? Yeah, yeah. I just love that.So I'm going to be, yeah!AOIFE:Presuming you're writing another book - for some reason I have a sense that you have more books in you – So, presuming you're writing another book, what are things that you will absolutely do next time and what are some things you will change?MELISSA: So absolutely I will go back to my write every day. I mean that'sthe thing I just kind of have to do that - I will write every day. I’m fortunate now that I've done it once, I've got one under my belt you know, so now I know how to format a book, I know how to use Createspace. I don't have to re-learn all of that, thank the good Lordfor that. So I will do some of those things again, but I think again theconsistency. I will continue to always hire someone to do my covers. I will continue to have someone edit my book for me. So those kinds ofthings.The thing that I hope not to do is to let the fear and just “Ohgosh, is anybody gonna read this?” and “Why? All this is just a waste of time… nobody's gonna want to read this garbage,” and blah blah blah blah blah.I'm not gonna let that hold me back this time because now I've done oneand lo and behold people are reading it and people are enjoying it and so now I’m just kind of like, “Okay, I can do this. I've done it I can do it and it's gone well.” So I'm going to try - I'm not saying I’ll be perfect at this one – but I'mgonna try to leave some of that fear and angst behind me and just forgeon. You know, move forward with things more quickly without the hesitation and the doubt. Hopefully. My lips to God's ears… we'll see. Hope it works out that way.AOIFE:Actually I was gonna ask you this after a couple of questions, but now seems a good time. When did you encounter any sort of moments ofresistance or “what am I doing?” or even procrastination orany of those human things that hit us when we're creating anything? How did you work through that if you came across those kind of moments?MELISSA: Yeah so I had to get just really, really, really clear on my why. Why am I doing this? And, you know I will tell you that my why for writing my book is I basically I just wanted originally - originally - I just wanted this to be like a fancy business card, okay?I wanted it to open doors for my coaching programs. I wanted it to open doors for speaking engagements and workshops - something I could sell on a back table if I did workshops - those kinds of things.I wasn't even really thinking about it as far as book signings and selling itand all that it was more just something I wanted to help promote otherthings that I had going on. So the fact that it then actually started to sellthat was just you know icing on the cake for me. That was great.So I think when I felt the resistance, though, I would have to take myself back to why I originally was wanting to do this - the people I thought I could help. You know, I have a vision board. I'm all about that kind of stuff, thinking about you know where you want to be in your life and I would just get refocused back on those things. Like, “This is why it's important to me - whether I ever sell a copy or not, I know that it can help me further my work in my coaching, the things that are important to me.” So I think it's just you really have to be really clear on your why and if you're clear enough on that coming back to that is what can help keeping you on the right track - help you to forge on when it's tough, when you're in that resistance and you're like “Nobody’s going to read this junk! Why am I doing this? Oh my gosh, this is terrible!”There were times when I was writing and thinking, “Tthis is terrible. This is terrible.” and I’d go back and I'd edit whenever and take it out, butgoing back to my why is just the thing that kept me going. So I think you have to be really, really, really firm on why you’re doing it and then be able to call on that when you need it - because there will be times, I promise, it’s doesn’t matter how great a writer you are. There will betimes you'll look at this and think, “This is garbage. Why am I even doing this?” It just happens - whether you're having a bad day or something – it will just happen. So just be really clear on why you're doing it and let that be kind of the fuel that keeps you going.AOIFE:Did you have any support people around? In your book you talk about “run through the sprinklers and stay away from the drains”, so you can explain that property better than me.MELISSA: Yes, I think we probably all have both kinds of people in our lives.So… sprinklers… okay, in the book this is how I describe different people. We have sprinklers in our lives. These are the people that love and support us and they just sprinkle their joy and love and support on youand you just blossom when you're in their presence, okay? But then we also have drains - and those are the people who literally being in their presence just drains the energy right out of you. And a lot of times we can just walk into a room with the person and immediately know what kind of person they're going to be.So I think it's very, very important, especially when you're undergoing something like writing a book or an important task that's really important to you, is that you spend as much time as possible with those sprinklers - those people who believe in you and who will encourage you and feed into you and, you know, keep you going when things are hard.Fortunately my amazing husband is one of those for me. My parents are those for me. I have some great friends, girlfriends, that'd be like, “Okay, we need the next chapter. Is it written yet? We've gotta keep reading!” So they would keep me going.And even I have two college-age sons - they're 19 and almost 22 – clearly, not the demographic for my book, but they knew I was writing a book and, God bless them, they were like, “How's the book coming, Mom?” They were really encouraging too -and my stepdaughter. So I really did have a core group of people that when I was in tears I'm like, “Honestly, I’m just going to chuck this whole thing,” they were like “No, no. We need the next chapter. We're hooked!”So having those kinds of people is very, very important, I think, and also being able to erect solid boundaries around the drains, because that's important too, I think. So, yeah, get your support team togetherAOIFE:Did you have, when you were beginning writing, was there anything that you just didn't anticipate? Or you didn't know that something was going to go a certain way or that's sort of surprised you with the writing or anything?MELISSA: Yeah, so the thing that surprised – so when I started writing my book the thing that scared me the most was like, “I am NOT gonna have enough to say to fill a book. I'm gonna have four pages and be done. I'm not gonna have enough to say.” Well, what surprised me was that I actually ended up having way toomuch to say. I actually ended up – and, oh God, this was painful, but - I actually ended up cutting out 12 chapters – 12 chapters - of my book because turned out I had written like the next “War and Peace”.So now I have like almost another book ready to go just from those12 chapters I pulled out of this one. So I think that really surprised me that once I sat down and started writing that it just flowed and it came out and I ended up with so much more than I anticipated. So I did not expect that at all. I thought I was gonna be, you know, pulling teeth just to come up with enough to fill a book.So I think that was the biggest surprise - that I had more to say than I really anticipated.Yeah and I think that a nice surprise is just how well it's been received. I mean that just makes my heart so happy that people are reading it andthey're enjoying it and their lives are being touched by it and they're able to make sustainable change in their lives because of it. So that's just something I didn't necessarily - I hoped for but I didn't anticipate. I didn't know if it was going to actually come to be and it is.AOIFE:Actually my next question is about what's been most rewarding for you about having your book at in the world and the impact that it's making on the people who read it? How is that feeling?MELISSA: There is no greater feeling when I have somebody come up to me it's like, “Oh my gosh, I read your book”. Especially, you expect your friends to come say nice things to you, but when it's somebody that you don't even really know that you know but they've got your book and they've read it and they're like, “I've been through a similar situation” or “I had divorce” or “I'm struggling with a job situation, but reading your book has really helped me gain some clarity and I'm able to get to figure out what it is exactly that I want and now take some concrete steps in that direction”.Another piece of feedback that I really have enjoyed hearing is people tell me that in the personal development genre there are a lot of really inspiring books out there. You can go to any bookstore and there's a shelf full – lots of inspiration. But what people told me they liked about mine is that not only is it inspiring it's also actionable.You know it's like it’s great to get inspired, but then you need something to kind of help you road map, to help you take some real concrete steps to live that life that you're now so inspired to follow after - and they liked that my book not only provides the inspiration, but it provides the actionable steps that you can take too - so that’s really – I loved hearing that; that people are actually kind of putting it into work and that it's it's benefiting them.AOIFE:What advice would you give to somebody - say you know when 4 or 5 years ago you were starting to the ideas and then in the last year and a half you've been really like focused on it - so and if you go back say from 4 years go to 1 and a half years ago. For the people in that stage - they want to write and they don't have the confidence yet or they don't feel brave enough yet or they're second-guessing themselves or wondering if they can do it. What would you say to them?MELISSA: I would say write. Just start writing. Yeah. Write.The best way to fight fear, I think, is action. Action is the best way to fight beer and if you start taking action. And yeah, okay, some of it might not be good, I mean I get that - not everything I wrote was good - but just start writing. Start the process. Just start getting some words down on the page and even if that's not what you end up going with down the road, I mean that's fine. At least you're starting the habit You're starting to get yourself in that mental space where you're a writer, but I just think you just have to write.Even, I mean, there were plenty of things I wrote and no one will ever read. They didn't make it to a book. They weren't good and nobody's ever read it, but still just that that practice of sitting down and writing and being a writer - because all you have to do to be a writer is write. You don't necessarily have to be published. You don't have to be.Also, I’m a runner. I'm not a great marathon or anything. You don'thave to be. All you have to do to be a runner is run, you know? So I run a little.All you have to do to be a writer is write.So you sit down at your desk and you start to write and you start to get some words on paper. I think it's therapeutic. I think it's empowering and, again, the best way to combat fear is through action - so start taking that action and then as you write you'll come up with your outline, how you want things to flow and all that. You can start arranging the pieces, but my biggest piece of advice would just be to writeAOIFE:It also brings to mind in the book you mentioned Newton's Laws ofPhysics – that a body that's in motion tends to stay in motion, a bodythat's at rest tends to stay at rest. I did 2 years, maybe 3 years of Physics in school and that’s all I held on to!MELISSA: Isaac Newton! I find that his laws… those are so applicable in this, and in anything. It’s like if you just get started… it's overcoming that initial inertia of being at rest. You know, if you can overcome that and get yourself in motion you'll tend to stay in motion. So once you start writing it'll start to flow - so that's why you just gotta get started and do it!AOIFE:So what's next for you?I know http://fabyoulouslife.com/ is your website and your mission and movement and the book is part of this - and you said that you're getting a coaching certification. What's next for you and where can people find out more about you?MELISSA: Absolutely, yeah. So they can find out more about me at my website which is http://fabyoulouslife.com/ I am getting a special certification for coaching, but I am a coach already so I do coaching and speaking and those kinds of things. I do have - my next book is in the process of being written right now, so I have that that I'm hoping to have out by the end of the year. That's my goal. I need it to really because it's called “The Fabulist” and it's 365 – well, it's more of a guided journal almost, but it's lists that you make every single day that help you discover more about who you are.So I want it to come at the end of the year because I think it'd be something great just for people start at the beginning of the year - sothat's the goal so I'm working on that right now.But, yeah we're also doing workshops and coaching and all kinds of things so just go to http://fabyoulouslife.com/ and you can get all the information there.I'd also encourage people while they're there to sign up to get on my mailing list – which, a box will pop up where you can do that - because then you'll be in the loop whenever something new or different comes on the scene. You'll be one of the first to know. So there's that - lots of great things.AOIFE:Well, thank you so much, Melissa Venable, for being here and for sharing all your wisdom with us.I know that's going to be really helpful to some writers who are about to get started and for people who want to read “Finding FabYOUlous” as well.Thank you, so much.MELISSA: Thank you. It's been such a pleasure to be here and I can't wait to connect with you more down the road, so thank you so much.AOIFE:Bye, bye now.MELISSA: Bye, bye.********* Want to write a non-fiction or self help book? I’ve got a gift for you! A FREE writing course designed to help you do just that! You can get that here: http://www.mymessageislove.com/free-writing-course If you’d prefer to work with me 1:1 on your writing you can find out more about that here: http://www.mymessageislove.com/work-with-meFor any other enquiries, email me at: copy@mymessageislove.comAoife MY MESSAGE IS LOVE********* Note:You can find out more about Melissa Venable HEREYou can buy Melissa's book "Finding FabYOUlous" HERE You might like these episodes too: #7 - 7 Reasons You Should Write A Book#10 - Self Publishing vs Traditional Publishing. Your Questions Answered!#15 - 5 Secrets To Attention Grabbing Stories*********

In this episode Rosered and Melissa join Andrew to talk about the roel pop culture has played in shaping and nurturing their spritual practices. They talk about Pop figures as altar items, movies and characters that shaped them, and explore what something being sacred to them might mean.  If you are interested in supporting this podcast though our Patreon you can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. You can find Rosered on Twitter here and Instagram here. Tarot Visions Podcast is everywhere but you can start here.  You can find Melissa on her website here.  Planet of the Ape and other cool buddha hybrids are here.   Thanks for listening! If you dig this please subscribe and share with those who would like it. Andrew   If you are interested in booking time with Andrew either in Toronto or by phone or Skype from anywhere click here.     ANDREW: Welcome to another instalment of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. Today, I have got on the line with me, Rose Red Robinson and Melissa Ceynowa, and we're here to talk about pop culture, and the ways in which pop culture and movies and stories and all these wonderful things can influence us and be a part of our understanding of who we are and our journey. That's the official reason.  The unofficial reason is, I really wanted to hang out and talk about Big Trouble in Little China a lot … [laughter] ANDREW: And I'm not saying if you haven't seen that movie yet, that you should stop listening right now and go and do so, but I'm not saying you shouldn't, you know, cause really, if you haven't seen it yet, I don't understand. You should go see it. You should go check it out. It's on Netflix.  So, but, for, you know, people who don't know who you are—let's start with you, Rose. Give us a quick introduction.  ROSE: Okay, I've been doing tarot off and on for 20 plus years. I am fortunate enough to have a wonderful podcast of my own that I do with Jaymi Elford, called Tarot Visions, that was started back in 2013, with the lovely Charlie Harrington, and he decided to pass me off to Jaymi. I've worked in … with Tarot Media Company for many years, back in the day, studied tarot for off and on forever, and am now kind of exploring Celtic Hanlon at the moment, and, am just a general happy reader.  And I've been lucky enough to present at various conventions on the west coast, PantheaCon and Northwest Tarot Symposium, being the two, as well as running some successful meet-ups in my local area that I have also passed on to other people, because I'm not the only one who knows everything. So, it's awesome to be able to share, and engage other people to be teachers as well, cause then I can be a student, so that's fun. So that's me! ANDREW: Cool. Awesome. And Melissa?  MELISSA: I can't really follow that. No ... [laughter] ANDREW: Pretty impressive, right?  MELISSA: No, I've been—next year, I figured out, I've been reading for 30 years, and it occurred to me that I might be able to teach people, like only five years ago. So, I wrote a book. It came out last year; it's Kitchen Table Tarot, and my way of teaching the cards is really similar to Rose's, cause we both grab onto what's around us. ROSE: Mmmhmm. MELISSA: As kind of a pathway to what the card means, and... I don't know, I'm a mom, and trying to figure out how to have, you know, three jobs at a time and still pursue tarot, which is my favorite sweetheart in the whole world, is challenging but worth it, so. Yeah.  ROSE: [whispering] Her book is awesome!  MELISSA: Thank you! ANDREW: Sure. It's a good book. MELISSA: Thank you. I like it.  ANDREW: We have it in the shop; you can get it on ... everywhere. So, check it out.  MELISSA: Thank you! ANDREW: So, tell me about pop culture. You know? What is it about pop culture that intrigues you or interests you? You know? Cause I mean, like, growing up, I always heard, “TV's going to rot your brain, blah blah blah, it's all a waste of time,” right?  ROSE: Right. ANDREW: You know? But for me, it's certainly ... I guess I'll leave it up to the dear listeners to see if my brain is rotted or not, but, you know, to me it always seemed like a way of understanding, a way of connecting, a way of making sense of things, you know? At its best, I mean, right?  ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: But like, what is it about pop culture stuff that's interesting to you two?  ROSE: Okay, well, it was kind of one of my first experiences of finding spirituality, ironically enough, cause I grew up when we could watch, you know, Bewitched, and you could talk about the Greek gods on the different Hercules shows and all of those things, back with Harryhausen, and all of that. And it was just like “Oh! Wait! These aren't just crazy movies and TV shows, there's, like, stuff that they're based on?”  And then going and finding out that, you know, there's Greek mythology, and going and studying that … And then, of course, when you're in school, they're like, “Oh, you're interested in that, here, let me give you more stuff!”, cause teachers want you to learn … And so, that was really how I incorporated the two, and I'm like, well, “Isis is amazing! I love that TV show!” And then, “Oh! It's a real thing!” And then learning more about that as a child, I mean, with the wonder that we have as children, and then, you know, Wonder Woman being, you know, the princess of now, Themyscira, but then, Paradise Island, and incorporating that with the Greek mythology, and going, “Oh, wow, this makes sense!” You know. So, that's kind of where it came from for me. I don't know, your mileage may vary. But that's … I didn't see it as pop culture at the time, I just saw it as “Oh, cool TV show, talking about something real,” air quotes on the real, cause again, TV is not the real part, and just blending, and that's how I built it up, cause okay, now I've got this connection, and yeah, it made sense.  MELISSA: For me it was kind of finding connection, cause I was a lonely nerdy little child, and I would watch Wonder Woman and I would watch, even Mother Goose, you know, with her pointy hat riding a broomstick with her familiar, you know? Like, I was always drawn to the witchy kind of stuff, but I didn't know what to call it, and I loved Uncle Arthur, and, you know, all of the things that had pieces of them that also fit pieces of me, and so I've always been really drawn to pop culture because it kind of helped me identify who I am.  And, like I just saw A Wrinkle in Time, and I sobbed through the whole thing, because Meg was the only person I'd ever met who was like me, when I read those books … ROSE: Mmmhmm. MELISSA: And finding somebody that could like, reach through pages, and say, “Honey, you're normal, you're just like me,” was just amazing. And that was very spiritual for me, to find somebody who said, “You're not aberrant, and you're not a mistake,” you know? So pop culture's been really important to me because I was lonely. And the weird kids all over, The Girl with the Silver Eyes, or the X-Men, or all of these outside kids, they were me. And finding somebody that showed my face back to me was really important. So.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Yeah. ROSE: What about you, Andrew? ANDREW: When I was growing up in the 80s, all those bad ninja movies were coming out? I was so fascinated with them, you know? And what ended up happening was, me and my friends started trying to learn how to meditate because of it, right? Because we'd see, you know, these things that were really cool and exciting, but then they'd be like sitting there and meditating. And we were like, “Oh, we should meditate. What do we do? How do we do it?” You know?  And that led to me getting involved in martial arts and learning how to really meditate, you know, when I was like 10 and 11 and stuff like that, and, you know, it's one of the things that really became a through line for me. You know? And, it's funny, when I met my partner Hanlon, they hadn't seen Big Trouble in Little China, or they certainly didn't remember seeing it, you know? And, I'm like, “You haven't seen this? We need to fix this right now!” Right? Cause this is like one of the best movies of all time.  And after watching it, he was like, “Wow! You're like all three of the main characters in one person. You're like…?” You know? Jack Burton, the dorky, kind of adventurous, like outgoing kind of person … You know, I was doing a lot of martial arts at the time we met, so, you know, Wang and sort of all of this Kung Fu stylings and stuff, right? And then I was into all these magical things, like Egg Chen, you know? And it was like this very funny thing, to have this reflected back to me, you know? Like you were saying, Melissa, it's like there were elements in this character or in the story that fit my sense of who I was, you know? And it wasn't quite as clean cut as like, “I feel like just this one or that one,” but the story and interactions between all three of those sort of fit that sense of who I was and how I wanted to be in the world, you know? As well as my struggles and other things, you know? So.  MELISSA: Yeah. And I think, going into adulthood, because I've always been, like, completely into any kind of pop culture, fairy tales, fantasy fiction, like whatever. But I could put myself in different characters. So, I'd read Madeleine L'Engle and I would be Daniel, because I loved Daniel. And I would read Charles de Lint, and Julie Coppercorn and I are right here, and it kept ... Seeing the depth in the character taught me to see the depth in myself. Almost. Or that there were other options than being depressed, being quiet, being small. And, since I didn't have really an example around me of an adult who was like me, I would base my behavior on the characters that I read who did things that were honorable and kind and ... They kind of were examples to me. You know, I grew up without a mom so seeing Wonder Woman was huge for me. That was like communion. I would watch her every week, and I identified with her and Princess Leia. That was like my mom character, you know?  ROSE: Mmmhmm. MELISSA: And it filled a void. And it was ... And, the beautiful thing about it is, Rose and I are both Wonder Woman crazy, and we have a connection, and we'll always have that connection. ROSE: Yeah. MELISSA: And it's so great to meet somebody and go, “You dig that thing? I dig that thing too!”  ROSE: Mmmhmm. ROSE: So, there's a whole other world where you reach outside of yourself and say, “Oh my god, I went to, you know, Comic Con, and met three women dressed like Wonder Woman and it was the best day of my life,” you know? ROSE: Oh, yeah. MELISSA: So, that level of outside connection is super important too. ROSE: Well, and, as you just mentioned, it's meeting other people. I think the rise of the Internet has really helped all of us with that because of the “I thought I was the only one who loved this thing,” and in a group where you might have been at school the only one who loved this thing, so you didn't know how to share it with your friends, and now, as you've gotten older, and the Internet exists, you're just like, “Oh my god! I can find people who love my thing!” And I get to talk to people about it.  I mean, one of the things that connected myself with tarot, and gaming, cause that's where my tarot also blends, is the fact that one of the games out there had a tarot deck made for the game, and I'm like, “Oh my god! There's a game! And a tarot! And I can play both!” And I was always the one that wanted to play the tarot character, cause that's who I was. And so, I was always playing the Fate Witch in the Seven Seas game. And then they came out with spreads to do with it, and it just, that built that spiritual connection for me, but it also was, like, reminding me that I'm not the only one who sees that or feels that or connects to that thing that I love.  And then, you know, meeting all of you guys at different events has been awesome, because it's like now I can talk to somebody else who also loves Wonder Woman, tarot, and five billion other things that are like, “Oh my god, I never knew that people like all those things that I liked,” and I think that's kind of the thing for me, is watching how that has happened over the years, and how pop culture has become stronger for other people as well, because they, who are younger than us, had, have always had Internet, have always had pop culture as a thing, and we watched it grow. And I think that was kind of what made me feel like more and more connected to the magic of it, not just the beauty of connection with people. I'm babbling.  MELISSA: Mmmhmm. ROSE: But it's true. It's how we can turn something we love into a connection with our world, if that makes sense, and the spirits around us. Okay. I'm going to stop. I don't know, I just— ANDREW: I think that's really interesting, you know? And for me, I think partly because I almost died when I was 14— ROSE: Oh! ANDREW: I really didn't carry that stuff through in a lot of ways, you know? So, like, I was 14 and after that, like after being in a serious accident, I was like, “All right, I need to understand everything,” and so although I still read, you know, like Shannara books … ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And like some of that stuff, and I was definitely reading and consuming pop culture things and so on, I was also reading Nietzsche and …  ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Like, I was just, like, “All right, what is this all about?” Right? And so, for me, I enjoyed those things as a sort of through line of entertainment, but I felt like the answers were elsewhere. And then sort of later on, and you know, certainly sort of more in recent times, I've sort of seen how much is, how much, you know, answers and sort of sense of meaning can come from these other places, right?  ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: To my sort of teenage self, they just weren't serious enough, you know? ROSE: Mmmhmm. MELISSA: Yeah. ANDREW: Like I wanted to know the answers, and therefore, if a book wasn't hard to read, then it probably wasn't really helpful, was kind of a thought that I had at one point, you know?  ROSE: Mmmhmm. And yet—I'm going to interrupt and say, but see … ANDREW: Yeah! ROSE: One of the things that I always come back to mind … We, specifically in pop culture items, there are levels, so there's the level for the kid who's reading it, and then if the parent is reading it, there's more in there that we as adults could see, but when we're that young age we might miss something. It's … What comes to mind right now is the Harry Potter books. You know? They were written, and as they progressed, the child/reader gets older, but so does the characters, but that very first book—it looks like a kid's book, but it's really not, and I think that that's the kind of thing that people miss sometimes, is that there's underlying elements for the adults as well, and so there's something that is being put into motion at first. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. ROSE:  The next thing that just came to mind while you were talking about this is Steven Universe. It's a kids' show, but it's not. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. ROSE: And that's the beauty of bringing in the myths and legends around, you know, people and connection. But parents are like, you know, “Oh, my kid can watch that, it's a cartoon!”  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. ROSE: And yet, there's more there.  ANDREW: And I definitely don't think now that those things are missing, right?  ROSE: No. Oh, no, no.  ANDREW: Yeah. I've read all the Harry Potter books, I don't even know now, cause my kids keep rereading them and we keep rereading them to them, right? ROSE: Right. ANDREW: So, you know, you keep going through that stuff, and there's all sorts of wonderful things in there, you know, for sure, right? But yeah, definitely, it was a concept that I had when I was younger about that stuff for sure, right? Yeah. MELISSA: I always found them too as kind of a gateway. So, like the Madeleine L'Engle books, one of them uses Patrick's Rune, which is a Celtic prayer, and I went to the library and asked the librarian, “Where did this come from?” And she handed me five books on Celtic mythology. And then I wandered out of there and read everything I could about Celtic mythology. And I went back and she gave me Egyptology. And then I went back the next week and I had Chinese divination books. And so, it all kind of fed from each other, and it made me curious about everything, about all of it. And so, I love that within the story is another gateway to another story. I think that's why I'm a big gigantic nerd, if I'm honest, so.  ANDREW: So. ROSE: You've surrounded yourself by nerds, Andrew. Just so you know.  ANDREW: I know! It's great. I love it. It's perfect. I was looking at my collection of pop figures this morning before leaving, and thinking about recording today … ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Because I have ... Pop figures, if anyone doesn't know them, are these little large-headed representations of, you know, most of the cartoon and movie and TV show and pop culture stuff. And you know, I was looking at my pop Jack Burton, I've got Gracie Law, and I've got the glow in the dark Lo Pan … [laughter] ANDREW: And then I've also got General Voltan from Flash Gordon ...  ROSE: Ah! ANDREW: Which is another of my sort of favorite childhood movies.  ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: But, it, unlike Big Trouble in Little China, doesn't stand the test of time as well. [laughs] It's a pretty horrendous movie when I look back.  MELISSA: But the music does. ROSE: The music's amazing.  ANDREW: The music does, and Ming the Merciless is a tremendous bad guy and a wonderful look, you know?  ROSE: Oh yeah.  ANDREW: But yeah, lots of that movie is definitely really pretty horrendous, though, the last time I looked at it, yeah. ROSE: So. ANDREW: There's nothing wrong with being surrounded with nerds. ROSE: Something that ... So, I took a class at PantheaCon last year on pop culture and magic, cause that's what you do, and Emily Carlin was talking about how you can, because of the connections with the pop culture and magic, you can use some of those Funko pop characters in your practice, if you don't, you know ...  So, you don't want your friends to know what you're doing, but you want to honor your gods. There's a lot of ‘em out there that exist, and you just mentioned Lo Pan, and I'm wondering, you know, would you consider using that as part of your practice, if that were something you were trying to ...? Or that energy. Or even the energy of Jack Burton, I mean, because I mean, the man's the adventurer kingdom, you know, he's before we even get Indiana Jones! MELISSA: He never drives faster than he can see.  ROSE: Yeah. MELISSA: I mean, the man's got skills.  ANDREW: [laughing] ROSE: And he knows what he wants out of life. He wants to drive, he wants to adventure, you know, and that's, you know, so what do you think about that?  ANDREW: I think that that's entirely possible, you know ... I mean, I ... So I'm sitting here recording, and I'm looking at my shelf of things, and, you know, there's a picture of Aleister Crowley, there's a painting I did of St. Expedite, you know, there's like some self-portraits that I've done for magical reasons, and in the middle is my Dr. Zaius Buddha. So, Dr. Zaius from Planet of the Apes, right?  ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: The science person who believed that sort of religion and science ought to be the same and not at odds with each other, right?  ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And somewhere on Etsy, I found this person who was making Buddhas with different heads on them, like Star Wars ones and Yoda ones and whatever, and I reached out because I was looking for something to kind of use as a magical anchor for my sort of joyous relationship to my work life … ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW:  And sort of do some prosperity work with. And so, I reached out to the person, and I said, “Your stuff is amazing; what I really would like is a Dr. Zaius from the Planet of the Apes.” And his response was, “Dude, I'm working on them right now, I will email you as soon as they are done,” right?  ROSE: That's brilliant.  ANDREW: And so, I got one, you know? (photo in show notes) In gold, and ... ROSE: Oh my gosh! That's amazing! ANDREW: It sits up here with some other stuff, and it's definitely ... It was, for a while, the focal point of a bunch of work that I was doing. Now less so, you know? But ... ROSE: Different work now.  ANDREW: Yeah, but, you know, but for me, I feel like I use the pop stuff as tools for psychological sort of inner self explorations ...  ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: I'm, I mean, because I practice a traditional religion, I don't really feel drawn to use them in sort of my more religious or devotional kind of stuff, because those things already have their own avenues?  ROSE: Right.  ANDREW: But I could see how ... And also, when I was younger, if people didn't like what I was up to, I would be like, “Well, screw you, you're dead to me.”   ROSE: Okay. ANDREW: So. Whoever that was. You know? So, the idea of obscuring things has never been a part of my process. You know?  ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: But I can see how that makes a lot of sense, though, if it is? Right? And I understand that for a lot of people the sort of notion of flying under the radar, right, is important.  MELISSA: We have ... Sorry. We have a family altar in the middle of our living room, and the kids help me. We clean it off at the end of the month, and the kids help me kind of build it over the month, and it gets covered with incense dust and whatever rocks we like, and then we start at the beginning of the month again. And any given month, there is a statue of Mary, some fox fetishes from a Zuni tribe, and a couple Wonder Woman Funko pops, and whatever the kids want to throw on. And it's, you know, if my son is feeling particularly, you know, sad or feeling small, than he'll put his Thor Funko Pop on the altar, and that's his way of kind of reaching out and connecting. ROSE: Mmmhmm. MELISSA: And I've never made anything ... I've never disallowed them from putting anything, whether plastic or, you know, any kind of rocks or whatever, on the altar, because it's not really the antiquity or the ceremony around the object, it's what it means to you.  ROSE: Mmmhmm. MELISSA: And if Thor needs to be on the altar this month, cool, let's do it. You know?  ROSE: Well, and one of the things that I have in plenty is, I'm a Lego nerd. So, I have this, which is, I'm showing to you, Andrew and Melissa, it's a Lego minifig of the Tarot Reader, who is holding a Sun card and a Tower card. And when I first got one of these ... and I've got like three of them now ... I carry ‘em with me in my tarots, when I do readings out, and people kind of go, “What is that?” “It's a tarot minifig! See? This is not scary!” And ... but it's also, you know, a representation of me sometimes, when I need to focus, and so it's again how pop culture and how pop stuff crosses over with my spirituality. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. ROSE: So, it's just a thing, I think that we all need to just grasp what works for us and build our practice around that part of it, and honor the traditional, because that's important. It's finding out what the traditions really are. But then, when it makes it work for you, if connecting that with Wonder Woman for example, or getting the Funko Pop of Hercules, cause, you know, that was kind of cool, works for you, to represent that, you know, or the Athena one, do it, I think that's great. But I also, you know—be aware of what you're connecting with, too, because you're not, it's not just surface stuff.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Yeah. I also think that it's certainly possible with a lot of these things to start opening up in directions, and making connections with things, and then, you know, and then you can kind of go off and explore the spirituality and come back around and sort of revisit the pop culture layer with new eyes as well, right? It's a way in which we can, you know, continue to see deeper layers and maybe even sort of write extra layers on top of it, even if they're not there, right?  ROSE: Mm. Yeah, I could see that.  MELISSA: During my classes, I think Rose does this too, we both teach tarot classes, and we both use pop culture in them ... ROSE: Mmmhmm. MELISSA: And so, I have this feature that, the name of which I accidentally stole from Jaymi Elford—sorry, Jaymers!—called Pop Goes the Tarot, and I take a fandom like Firefly, and I match it with a tarot card ... ROSE: Mmmhmm. MELISSA: And, I've found the response to those has been really huge. Because if you're having a problem figuring out what the Hermit card is, or what the Emperor is, and if I say the Emperor is Erich Hartmann dressed up as a police officer saying, “Respect my authority!” I mean, that is a pretty strong connection to the archetype of the Emperor ... ROSE: Mmmhmm. MELISSA: And if they start there, and then move on to like, Benebell's gigantic book, or, like, another book that has like spiritual historical symbolic meanings of the cards, then they'll already have that first step into it and what it means—what it could mean for them. You know? And I think that if people do that with their own particular fandoms, they'll have an intimate connection with what that card is.  ROSE: Mmmhmm. MELISSA: So, it's been really fun, and I keep getting emails about ideas of fandoms to explore, but if they're not mine, I don't have the confidence to assign the cards to them, so ... ROSE: I'm still waiting for your Brady Bunch tarot.  MELISSA: Oh, that would be a good one! Okay. I know that fan, I got that. ROSE: [laughing] And I think that's the beauty of pop culture and connection with spirituality is that you are making it a little bit more understandable for yourself. And as you said, yeah, taking the cards, “Okay, this is the Emperor,” well, what's the Emperor do? You know? Is it Emperor Palpatine? Or is it, you know, the … I can't even think right now, Dumbledore, let's just put it that way, that's not even right, though. But the point is, you're figuring out which one matches up better for you. You know, I mean, the Devil might be Voldemort, he might be, you know, Darth Vader, but he also might be, you know, the little girl from The Bad Seed, which is a 1930, 45, something, I don't know, 50s movie about a bad kid who personifies as beautiful and happy and lovely and she does really horrible things for a pair of shoes in one point. But anyway. The point is that you just connect these things. And then you can figure out what your personal connection is to either cards or to spiritual path. And also, the fact that that's part of the collective unconscious as well, because all of these people … also … the moment you say, Lord Palpatine, to a group of people, most of them, I'm not going to say all, but most of them know what you're talking about.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. ROSE: So, you know, you're doing something with a group, and you want to go okay, pull a card, “Oh, and this reminds me of Lord Palpatine,” and the rest of the audience knows what you're talking about. And that's the beauty of the pop culture. Of course, it is also needing to be aware that it is country-sometimes-specific or fandom-specific, because there are people that haven't seen Star Wars.  ANDREW: Well, and also, I think that each of these worlds has varying stories and ideas around power and around, you know, who's the Emperor or the Devil, right? You know?  ROSE: Right. ANDREW: You know, is the Emperor positive, you know? Is it really like great and endearing and lovable figure? Could be, you know?  ROSE: Could be. ANDREW: Right? Is it somebody nefarious and controlling, you know? As I was organizing this, Aidan Wachter resurfaced something he had done previously where he had put Ming the Merciless from Flash Gordon as the Emperor card. Right?  ROSE: Ooh. ANDREW: The guy's an Emperor, a horrible Emperor, but, you know? And I think that there's this level at which, you know, we can start to understand the ways in which we or people view lots of different ideas. ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: As we look at those, you know, what is the notion of justice in Firefly or in, you know, this, that, or whatever, right? ROSE: The Justice League.  ANDREW: Justice League, yeah. How good are the Greek gods, right? You know? If we're looking at Watchmen …  ROSE: Oh, yeah. ANDREW: It's a whole different matter, right? You know?  MELISSA: Batman has been a total a-hole lately, so? ROSE: Yeah. ANDREW: He always was! That's why I liked Batman! You know? I mean when I got into Batman Comics, I was reading them when like the Dark Knight starts, like the comic books start coming out, and Arkham Asylum and the Joker and the Killing Joke and all that kind of stuff, right?  ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Batman was this pretty sort of amoral, you know, fairly dark character, you know?  ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And it was interesting, right?  ROSE: You needed a counterpoint, though, to Superman, so yeah. ANDREW: Right? You know? So, I think that yeah, again, it's always, it depends on what we're looking at, right? Are we talking about Adam West as Batman, that's one thing, right? Are we talking about, you know, Christian Bale or, you know, these other comics and stuff, I think that that also becomes quite interesting, and then how do we reconcile sort of what's behind all of those things, you know? What is that? Right? ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: That carries through all those through lines, you know? Yeah. ROSE: Well, and being able to reconcile which versions you're using, as you're pointing out. Cause they all have different flavors.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. ROSE: But that doesn't mean they're different characters, cause they're all parts of Batman, they're just highlighting different facets. I mean, everybody, what, freaked out when Ben Affleck was cast as Batman, and my first thought was, well, he'd make a great Bruce Wayne. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. ROSE:  Not—And I didn't even think of him as Batman, I just thought of him as the Bruce Wayne part of the character, because I think that he has the gravitas for that part. I don't know about his Batman. I'm not going to talk about that. But the point is that I didn't lose my cool over it, let's put it that way, as other people did, because they felt that Batman needed to be darker. Da. And— MELISSA: Well. ROSE: Christian Bale really pulled off a very strong Batman, I think. But it depends on who's writing it. Go ahead.  MELISSA: I think that's an important part too, is that people take these very personally. I always think that people, you know how you're not supposed to talk about religion and politics and stuff. I think that's because people hold their beliefs so close to them, they become integrated with who they are, so if you question the belief, you're questioning the person. So that's my base belief.  And I think that people take fandoms to that level too. Like I was in an elevator one time with my Wonder Woman lunchbox, and somebody was like, is that your kid's? And this was a stranger and I said no. And she goes, aren't you a little old for that? And I, you know, wanted to say, shouldn't you go, whatever ... ROSE: Yeah. MELISSA: But I almost started crying. Because it was so personal. ROSE: Mmmhmm. MELISSA: And such an intimate thing for me, and I was like, I can't fix what she picked on. I can't make that different. It is part of who I am. So, it isn't something that I can like hide it behind my back and pretend that it never happened. She picked on something that was really intimate with me. And I think that that's why, like people get really upset if their identity of who Batman is, is picked on or it's shifted from who they say it is. It's very personal.  ROSE: Yeah. By the way, the response to that should have been “Um, no,” and “Where's your sense of imagination?” But anyway. ANDREW: Well, and so, one of the other fandoms that I quite enjoy is Doctor Who, right?  ROSE: Yes!  ANDREW: And Doctor Who is an interesting one in that regard, because Doctor Who is always changing, right?  ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And, you know, I think that it's kind of, it's one of the things that makes it fascinating for me, right? You know?  ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: I certainly have my favorite and less favorite iterations, you know?  ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: But yeah, I think it's really interesting, you know? And I think that this notion that we end up at, right?  ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: I think that it's one of the reasons that we like fiction so much, right? In its various forms. Is fictional characters or stories or whatever: they're allowed to change, right? But if we walk through the world, it's easy to end up in places and around people where it's much harder or maybe sort of unofficially not permitted to change, right?  ROSE: Mm. ANDREW: All of those social constructs of our job and our relationships and our friends and stuff can sort of exert this force that seeks to keep us in a constant relationship, right? We always have to be Ben Affleck, or we never can be Ben Affleck, or whatever it is about that Batman, right?  ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And yet these stories and the way in which both are reinvented as the worlds get rewritten, but also as they go through their journeys, they get to become different people, which I also think is very fascinating, you know? Yeah. I think the ... I think that, you know, bonking someone in the head with your Wonder Woman lunch bag is probably a good time.  [laughter] ANDREW: I endorse that. The Jack Burton in me said “Do it.”  [laughter] ANDREW: Yeah. MELISSA: It's all in the reflexes.  ROSE: Well, and I ... it sounds like you were surprised by the commentary too.  MELISSA: Mmmhmm. ROSE: Cause that is kind of surprising, it's like, why would you say that to someone that you don't even know?  ANDREW: Yeah. Well, it's ... Yeah. And I know lots of people who complain or make comment about people doing cosplay or people doing ... I'm like, “Why on earth are you peeing in someone else's Cheerios?”  ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Just let them have their fun and do whatever they're doing, like, what does it matter to you? Why do you care, right?  MELISSA: That is such a visual, thanks! ANDREW: You're welcome. But why on earth would anyone care what you watch or don't watch or carry or all these things, right? Like just, you know.  MELISSA: And I've gotten emails from people who said that, like I've had four or five, actually, in the past couple years that said I'm making light of a sacred tradition, and I'm like, if you don't like my book, cause my book is pretty light, I connect things to the publisher, I connect them to stories in my life, I connect the cards to pretty much anything that I find relatable, as a form of teaching. If you don't like it, don't fucking read my book. That's fine. Don't read my stuff about pop culture. Don't. Go find something else that you relate to. If you find yourself wanting to send that email, also don't do that, because, you know, blocked and deleted, as my kid says. It's just, why would you do that? Why would you take the time to try to impress yourself on another adult who already has their ideas? And it just seems so futile. And self-promoting and crappy. ANDREW: Well, why do people do these things? What do you think?  MELISSA: I think they feel small. and they want to feel big. That's … I think it's sad. Well, I mean, it pisses me off. But I also think it's sad. And, you know, it's a way for them to feel big. It's a shitty way to do it, but it's a way, you know? ROSE: Yeah. And also, it's a way to say, “Hey, see, I'm smart, I know this thing, and maybe you don't, and here, let me explain it to you so that you see the error of your ways.”  MELISSA: Well, actually ...  ROSE: And that's, I think, a big thing that's going on is, you know, as the older guard, if you will, starts passing on, unfortunately, the younger guard is going to take what they've learned and they're not going to ignore the sources, but they're also going to make it their own. And I think that's what you do, is that you remind people, yes, there are these big things and sacredness to everything and please honor that, but while you're learning that stuff, to be able to use your tools now, here's a way to connect it to what you're going through with your everyday life.  I mean, part of, okay, James Wanless, cause I talk about him a lot, in general, is him, he created the Voyager Tarot. If you look at his courts, they're not knight/queen/king/page, they're child/woman/man/sage, because it was like, okay, in the 80s, we don't know, anybody, really, not in America, who are knights, queens, kings, and pages, really. Yeah, if you go to England, you can find them, I know, but I know a child, I know a woman, I know a man, and I might even know a sage, who is someone who knows a lot of stuff, so [sigh]. That's like … And it's modernizing something. That didn't mean he threw out the past. He just brought some stuff up to the future. And I think that's what you, Melissa, are doing with your work, is that you are taking this sacred knowledge that you learned, and then applying the stuff that you love and connecting them and making them more palpable for a modern view. Again, not ignoring where it came from, but not saying, okay, we can ONLY talk about it in that fashion. Because you need to have something that you can connect to, or it's not going to stick. At least that's been my experience.  MELISSA: My biggest hope about this book is that it is completely irrelevant in 30 years. I would love that. Because I want everybody to just kind of get involved, and I want ideas to change, and they're already a couple of things that I put in it that I'm like, damn it, I kind of want to fix that, but it's too late. And, because I think that, you know, my kids think different things than I do, and they're 12 and 14, and their kids are going to have a whole different perspective. And I think that tarot lends itself to being whatever you need it to be, and so I think that what people will need it to be in 30 years is going to be something entirely different. I think that's beautiful. You know?  ANDREW: So, I kind of, I agree, and I disagree with you. ROSE: Okay. ANDREW: I want to, I'm going to throw out some other options here. And I'm going to start by framing it in a different context and then come back to tarot. Right? ROSE: Okay! ANDREW: So, as you both know, and as people who listen probably know, right? I practice the Orisha tradition in a very traditional way. Right? And, so, for me, this is a very sacred thing, you know? And certainly in my practice, I endeavor to follow the traditional ways of doing things and work with my elders and all of that kind of stuff.  And, so here's this thing that I identify and hold very sacred and not immutable, and not that I think there aren't a few things that might benefit from changing, but in general, I'm very like, this is it, these are the things, this is how it's done, and these are the beliefs within that structure about how these spirits work with people, and so many things, right? And then, I run a store, and I go out in the world, and I do things, and people do all sorts of other stuff, right? And that stuff ranges from interesting and sort of regional difference, to like horrendous, in my opinion, misunderstandings and appropriation, right?  ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And, so, for me, there's this practice where I have my own structures, and beliefs, and structures in which I work, and I look out from that place into other things that people are doing, and all, so much of it I don't understand what's going on at all ... ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Or, from a traditional point of view it's problematic or inappropriate. But I recognize that everybody's free to do whatever they like, and so I just largely ignore, or just don't engage people when they're doing other things, right?  ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: When it comes to tarot, I think that it's very challenging, you know, and Mary Greer just had a big post on this on her Facebook. If you're a follower of hers, you could probably scroll down a bit and find it. About this sort of, can we just do anything with tarot, right?  ROSE: Mmmhmm.  ANDREW: And I think that to me, while it's not as clearly defined as my religious practice, which is a very clear and sort of longstanding traditional structure, I think that with tarot, there's this sort of central core of things, which to me encompasses what tarot is, you know?  ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And as you migrate out from those sort of pieces, and depending on which sort of pockets you choose to work with, right? Are you a Rider-Waite person and falling kind of in that line? Are you a more esoteric person and fall in that line? Are you reading in a more sort of European style with, like, Marseilles cards and so on ...? ROSE: Mmmhmm.  ANDREW: But to me, there's a place at which it loses its cohesion as we start doing anything with it, right?  ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: There's a place at which the absence of what I sort of perceive as coherence starts ... I again … I have a similar feeling, although it's in a different way, where I just stop understanding what's going on. You know? I just don't understand, what is this? What's happening here? How does this work? So. Anyways. That's my response to what you said, Melissa.  MELISSA: That was a lot. And I do agree with you, but I think what I was trying to say, and maybe didn't do a good job, is that my opinion is not the only opinion. And that there is going to be a core. It can't be tarot and be 10,000 different things at the core, but it has to be basically the same thing for everybody.  But I'm not teaching the core of anything, I'm teaching what I think, and I'm teaching what's relatable to me, and, like, I learned to read on this Eden Gray book, and I read it so much that it's held together by duct tape and prayers, I mean, it's just, it's really beat up. But she didn't speak my language. And it took me a long, long time to figure out what the hell a Hierophant was, how to say it, I'm still not sure if I'm right, I couldn't relate to it at all.  It wasn't until I found Rachel Pollack and Mary Greer, that I went, “Oh! They're speaking my language!” And Barbara Moore spoke my language, you know? And those three women taught me tarot. And Eden Gray tried to for like 15 years, but I ... It was so far removed from who I was and my understanding, that I had to read it with a dictionary in one hand, you know, to try to figure out what the hell she was talking about.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. MELISSA: So, when I say that I hope that my stuff becomes irrelevant, it's going to, I'm not going to be relatable to a 14-year-old in 30 or 40 years. It's just not going to happen. And I think that's great. You know?  ANDREW: You never know, you'll have a syndicated tv show at that point, and ... MELISSA: Yeah... ROSE: A couple of books, and movies, and people will be following you on the Internets, and ... ANDREW: Manga and reinterpretations of your books, and reinventions, and ... [laughter] ROSE: You will be then flown to China, many times! And! But no, seriously. And I think I agree with Melissa on this, but I also see what your point is, Andrew, and I think what I ... I'm not saying throw the baby out with the bathwater if you will. Because again, if you're following a tradition, that's very different. In my opinion. Because, again, like you said, your Orisha has a structure. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. ROSE: And tarot has a structure, true. And adding pop culture won't—shouldn't, let me be more specific—shouldn't take away from the underlying structure. But as— ANDREW: And I don't think that pop culture is at all an issue in relation to tarot— ROSE: No, no, no, no— ANDREW: I wouldn't be having this conversation if I did, right?  ROSE: No, no, no, no—no, no. No, what I'm saying is I think that the way that I may have phrased it is like, it does not apply to everything. You cannot apply ... You can't take the Orisha tradition and then apply pop culture to it ... They're two very different things.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. ROSE: And there is a foundation in tarot that is being something you can move and mesh with. But it doesn't, the foundation doesn't go away, even when you apply the pop culture.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. MELISSA: And I wonder if—oh, I'm sorry. ROSE: No, go ahead.  MELISSA: If the difference between the two is that Orisha is sacred and when tarot is sacred to someone, they don't really want pop figures in their tarot.  ROSE: Right.  MELISSA: So, it's how close you hold it to who you are and your faith. And tarot to me is a tool, it's a stack of pretty cards that help me do my thing, that's fantastic, and I'll be really pissed if ... ANDREW: Pop culture is sacred to you, right?  MELISSA: It's a tool, it's a tool that I love, but I ... you know, I don't have it on my altar, I don't worship it. I don't think that. ... They're a tool that I can use really well, but that doesn't mean that they're sacred to me. You know? That might be the difference, you know?  ANDREW: For me, with my tarot cards, right, I'm a huge fan of the Joseph Peterson reproduction of the Jean Noblet Tarot de Marseilles. That is basically the only one that I read with right now. And so like, when I realized that they were going to go out of print, I just took three and put them in a drawer, cellophane-wrapped, so that when the one that I'm using now wears out, which it is starting to kind of get a bit worn, I can just be like, yeah, I don't need to be sad about this, they're just ink on paper, I'll go get another one from the drawer, you know?  MELISSA: Yeah. I did the same thing with the Uusi Pagan Otherworlds Tarot. I saw one picture—Ryan Edwards posted a picture of it, and I bought two. And I was like, this is for me, and this one is for future me. And future me is going to thank me, because I'm going to read with this about ten times a week forever, and then I'll need a new one, because they speak to me so much. But it's just like a really good chef's knife. You know? If you find the knife that fits your hand, that's the one that you're going to want to have around.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. MELISSA: Not that I can cook. I really can't! But I know that knives are expensive.  ROSE: Knives are important, knives are important, good to know, I agree. But again, it's kind of like, you're honoring the basis, you're not changing it. And you're adding a layer to understanding, I don't ... [sigh] It's just, oh gosh, that's just two very separate things for me.  Cause again, I do put tarot cards on my altar, and I generally use the Rider Waite Smith just because it's simple for that. I don't read with one of those very often, unless I'm at an event where I don't know if people are going to know it. I bring in one with me, but my cards always vary, I'm either carrying around the Everyday Witch Tarot, which just recently came out in the last two years, or the Druidcraft, which I've cut the borders off of, which was a thing you didn't do back in the day and now you do if you want to, and I've got like three copies of that particular deck cause it spoke to me.  I've got my Robin Wood because again, my mood changes, I mean I've got three different copies of the Voyager, and I have one that I've cut in fours so that I can like, have a focus, I need to have something focused, pull that corner of that card and go, okay that's the thing I need to look at, then go get the bigger image and figure out what that was, and … But again, I don't think I'm getting rid of the sacredness that the tarot, air quotes, is founded on, cause again we're still, there are still arguments about how that's been founded, but anyway.  But I wouldn't necessarily take pop culture and put my religious aspects on it, cause like I said I'm trying to study Celtic recre- recreation- bleh. Ah, talking! Celtic reconstructionism, that's the word, and I'm trying to find out that by reading their actual text. And that's not … But again, now how do you talk to people who are studying Norse mythology right now? And, you know, all the love of all of the Thor movies, and all of that, you know, and what about Loki and those movies, cause people are now making their version of Loki look like Tom Hiddleston. Lovely as he is, that's not the Norse mythology Loki. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. ROSE: So, but they're blending that a little bit. And is that going against the sacred text, because that's their image of it, even though they may be reading the actual text, they're still visualizing Tom Hiddleston? I don't know.  ANDREW: Mmmhmm. MELISSA: I'm always a fan of visualizing Tom Hiddleston, just to be on record, I have no problems with that.  ROSE: [laughing] ANDREW: I think few people have a problem with that, very very few people. Yeah. ROSE: He's lovely, but, do you know what I'm saying?  ANDREW: Yeah, absolutely.  MELISSA: Yeah, absolutely.  MELISSA: But I think it again goes to, how close do you hold it to you? If that's something that you hold very close to you, then that's not okay, and I think that we have to be really mindful of that, with other people, of how close they hold something, before we go goofing around with it, you know? For sure.  ROSE: Did that answer your question, Andrew?  ANDREW: Did I have a question?  ROSE: Well, I want to make sure we spoke to the ... cause again, you said you agreed and disagreed with our statement, and I'm thinking, well, yeah, I get both of what you're talking about, and I want to make sure that we responded.  ANDREW: Yeah, I think that there's a couple things, right? One is, people get really upset about the tradition of tarot. Right? And what they mean by the tradition of tarot depends on who that person is, right?  ROSE: Yeah. ANDREW: Do they mean, you know, Arthur Waite, and Rider-Waite-Smith, and sort of the various things that come from that? ROSE: [whispering] The Golden Dawn! ANDREW: Do they mean, you know, something different, like ...? And to some extent, I think that there's this sort of ... It's a ... It's a fake argument, right? Because ultimately there are at least a handful of branches of tarot from a big perspective, right?  ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: You know, but you can go down and then there's all those sort of branches that come from these things, and if you're in one and looking at the other, they're always kind of challenging, right?  ROSE: Mmmhmm.  ANDREW: I mean I started reading tarot initially with the Mythic Tarot but really focused on Crowley's work, right, and so I basically just read The Book of Thoth, right, over and over and over again ... ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And people would say to me, like, well how do I learn Crowley's Thoth deck, and I'm like, “He wrote a book, you read it, like, I don't understand the question,” right?  ROSE: Right.  ANDREW: And, it's kind of unfair, cause the book is complicated and obtuse and difficult to read and you know, all of those things, right? But again, it was the only thing I could get my hands on and, back in the 80s and 90s, as far as I knew, it was the only thing in print. There was nothing else to get. So, I was like, I'm just going to keep reading this thing until it makes more sense. ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: So, there's that, right? But I also think that … I think there is the challenge where people layer other things like well, maybe like pop culture, certainly like their own intuitive or self-derived meanings, and then assert those as like, you know, universal or inherently true or all those kinds of things, right? Because there ... I think that one can do anything you like with tarot, and I think that you should do everything that you like and feel like you want to do with tarot. And associate those meanings and all of that kind of stuff ... ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: The challenge is where people sort of erase the rest of the branches of the trees, right?  ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: You know, I've met a bunch of people who were very good psychics who used cards, but I would never really consider them card readers because what they do has no bearing on anything that I've ever understood to be reading the cards. ROSE: Hmm. ANDREW: They lay them out and they start talking, and they're like, “Oh yeah, this one, and blah blah blah blah blah,” and I'm like, “Why is the Ten of Swords getting a new job?” and they're like, “I don't know, that's the message I get,” and I'm like, “Okay.” And their readings are true ...  ROSE: Right. ANDREW: But they literally have no bearing whatsoever on anything that anybody would agree upon who has studied cards at all. Right? So, I ... ROSE: Huh. ANDREW: But those people—the couple of people that I've met that way—asserted what they were doing was traditional, was reading the cards, and I'm like, “It's not, it's something else, you know?” And not that it's invalid, but it's where things get confusing, right?  MELISSA: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: So. Yeah. So that's my mix of things.  ROSE: Now I want to meet some of those people and see how they read. Cause that'd be interesting, cause the Ten of Swords as a job ... Huh. Interesting.  ANDREW: Yeah. ROSE: Interesting.  ANDREW: It's easy. You just like, deal out like 20 cards on the table in some random ever-changing pattern every time you do it, and then you just look at them and say things, and that's it. That's what it looks like, so. ROSE: Okay. All right. I will have to find somebody who does it that way, then. That's interesting. Yeah. Hmm. I don't know.  ANDREW: Uh-huh. Were you going to say something, Melissa? I saw you like, lean in there.  MELISSA: Yeah, I, you know, I think that I've read like that before, when I've just done the readings intuitively and the cards don't matter. I don't … I hardly look at them, and if I need them to make a point, I'll find the card that makes that point with what I'm saying, but it becomes like a connection psychic reading or whatever, and I'll glance at the cards and just do the reading, and I'll pull stuff out of wherever it comes from, and the cards … Basically shuffling them helps the person relax, you know? Handling them helps me get in the place that I need to be, and then the reading just happens.  And, should I see something in the cards that pushes forth what I'm getting, then I'll be like, “Oh, yeah, this thing here, right, yeah, this is what the sword is doing,” and it kind of ... I did it more when I was first starting out, because I didn't know what the hell I was doing. And I was like, “Oh, well, I'm thinking about your mother, and here's a lady sitting in a chair, so clearly those two things are related.” But now, if I'm not paying attention to the way that I'm doing readings, I'll just start reading for somebody while they're shuffling, before they've even put the cards, like, down, and I'll start the reading, and then I'll be like “Oh, crap! I was supposed to wait. Sorry, my bad!” And that's just how my readings have evolved. So, it's strange, but, you know, it is what it is. I'm not everybody's cup of tea.  ROSE: But you are someone's shot of whiskey. It's fine.  MELISSA: I'm a bit weird in that way, but I think that it's just kind of merging two different styles of reading, because I can read just the cards, and I can read without them, and when I merge the two, sometimes one way is stronger, and sometimes the other one is. So.  ANDREW: Yeah. But you're not ... it doesn't sound like you're confusing the two.  MELISSA: No. They're definitely different.  ANDREW: Yeah. MELISSA: And. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.  ANDREW: So. For people who want to play with pop culture, what should they do?  ROSE: What do you mean?  ANDREW: Well, people listening to this and maybe this is a newer idea, or they've been thinking about it, but don't know where to start? If you're, like, going to start, like, incorporating or thinking about pop culture as a thing that could overlap and intersect with spiritual practice, like reading the cards or something else, where do people start?  MELISSA: I always like, when I have students, I ask them to start a tarot journal, and I ... One of the first things I ask them to do is to find their favorite fandom and match the major arcana to as many characters as they can, and then we talk about why they came up with those answers. ROSE: Mm. MELISSA: The other thing I do is ask them to find a song for each card. And a song that kind of speaks to the meaning of, like there's a song called “Pendulum Swinger,” and I'm like, this to me, by the Indigo Girls, is the High Priestess. And, so, they listen to the song that I pick, and I say, “Why do you think that I picked that?” And it just gives us like, an hour's worth of conversation based on a song in Firefly about cards, that it helps them connect to them in a way that they didn't know that they could, and it's fun. It's really fun. So, that's what I do. ROSE: I generally try and have people just look at the cards and see what they see. If they're new, and they're like, “I'm not ... This makes no sense!” The first thing I tell them and, sorry people who write the Little White Books, or the LWBs, I tell them to put that away. And to just take time with, you know, tarot journal, every day, pick a card, write what you see, tell me what it feels like to you, find a word, just one word, to describe that card. And go through all the cards.  And then, is there something in your community, your stuff you love, the interests that you have, that comes up for you when you see that card? Write that down. And then, when we meet, we talk about what it is you saw, why did you see it, and how does it connect? And sometimes it's pop culture, sometimes it's just, you know, something they read, but, and that's still something that's going on around them, and then we talk about it. And then, you know, it might be—cause most of my friends are Star Wars fans—we talk about Star Wars connected to the tarot. Or we'll talk about Star Trek cause that's the other fandom, cause we're old school like that.  ANDREW: Well, when I ... ROSE: In that way.  ANDREW: Was studying Kabbalah the first time, Star Trek Next Generation was on the air, right? So, the conversation was, all right, Tree of Life, which one's the Captain? Which one's Worf? Which one's, you know, whoever, right?  ROSE: Yeah. ANDREW: Kind of running through that. And making those parallels and sitting in a room of people and discussing that.  ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: That's such a wonderful, like, I think that one of the great things about these kinds of ideas is the dialogue about where they can get ascribed to is tremendously educating, you know?  ROSE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: There's no right or wrong answers, you know, depending on the angle or the lens we use, they could be a variety of things, right? You know? I mean, Jack Burton can be the Fool, right? But they can also be a variety of other things depending on where they are in that journey. Right?  ROSE: Right.  ANDREW: But, yeah. ROSE: Well, and who would you make—I would say Wang might be more the Fool, and Jack is the Magician.  MELISSA: I don't know. I put Wang as Temperance, and Burton as the Fool, cause Wang balances mind, body, and spirit a lot better than anyone else.  ROSE: Ah. ANDREW: Yeah. I think, I mean. You think about Jack Burton, you know? Especially that scene where like, all of the scenes with him that machine gun, right? Like he's there and he's got this machine pistol thing, right?  ROSE: Yeah. ANDREW: He jumps out and he tries to shoot it and he's like, “Oh, it doesn't work.” And then he goes back and tries to fix it, he comes back, and all of a sudden everything's whatever, he drops it, or he shoots the bricks over his head, they hit him in the head and he falls down, you know like, there's this constant set of things. To me, Egg Chen would be the Magician. Right? You know? He's got his potion, right?  ROSE: Yeah.... ANDREW: That helps him see things nobody can see and do things nobody can do?  ROSE: Yeah... ANDREW: And he's got his bag and ... ROSE: But I would make him the Hierophant.  ANDREW: Hmm. ROSE: I'd make him the Hierophant because he's the teacher, even though you might not want to learn the lesson, or you're not ready to see it, he's got the answers. But that's me.  MELISSA: Yeah, I think that Gracie would be that, because Gracie has all the back story and the information that they're missing to go on their adventure, so Gracie Law basically jumps in to say, “Oh, by the way, you need to go to this place, this is who that guy is, here's what he's up to, here's who these guys are, and in that way he hands them the keys to their adventure, right?” ANDREW: Mmmhmm. MELISSA: And the cool thing about this conversation is, all of us disagree, and nobody's being an asshole about it.  [laughter] MELISSA: Which I think is really cool, and that more people should probably do when they're talking about tarot. ANDREW: Perfect. ROSE: Yes! No matter what the lens that you're talking about it with, I would agree.  ANDREW: Absolutely, absolutely. All right, well thank you all for hanging out and indulging my ridiculousness around this conversation. I deeply appreciate it. Rose, where should people come find you online?  ROSE: You can find me on Twitter @RoseRedTarot, and also on Instagram @RoseRedTarot, or you can find me at Tarot Visions podcast, on iTunes and Pod Bean. ANDREW: Nice! And links in the show notes. And, Melissa?  MELISSA: If you Google Little Fox Tarot, you'll find me. I'm out there! ANDREW: Perfect. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, and yeah, it's been really fun and ridiculous, and thanks for agreeing and disagreeing but certainly for showing up, so, awesome!